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Diane Dayton  This is changing the rules, a podcast about designing the life you want to live, hosted by KC Dempster and Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world.KC Dempster  Good morning, everybody. Welcome to changing the rules. I'm KC Dempster. And I have Ray Loewe with me, the, he hates this, the self proclaimed luckiest guy in the world. You know, all through our lives, people have been setting rules for us. First it was our parents and then teachers, church. And as we get older employers and you know, the list goes on. And the rules are originally meant to control us, but usually in a positive way. They are trying to give a structure and guidance to keep us safe. But over time, a lot of these rules lose their relevance to us and they can become restrictive to what we want to do. And so this podcast is designed to help us build our own set of rules those that are important to us. And that work for us. We all need rules, but they need to be our rules. And when we change the rules to our rules, we become free. Free to be ourselves. Good morning, Ray.Ray Loewe  Good morning. And I'm all for this being free to be yourself Stuff, you know, rules, rules, rules, there's too many of them. And you know, it's not bad enough that we have the old rules, we get new rules all the time. And that's one of the things we're going to talk about today. So, I have been studying adult, all my adult life, people that I call the luckiest people in the world. And they're there those people that you'll want to be there that the people that everything always seems together, they have an aura of luck about them. And it's not the lottery winners that we're talking about. It's the people that, you know, are constantly lucky, almost everything that they do turns into a golden opportunity. And I think it's because they make it happen. So 1let me set Kind of a definition of the luckiest people in the world that I've evolved. And I'd like to define the luckiest people in the world as those people that personally design their own lives. They take control of their own lives, and they live their own lives to the max. And to do this, they use a series of mindsets. And one of them is changing the rules. They don't mess around with rules, they, they figure out how to make them work for them. And our guest today, really, we're going to introduce three rules. We've introduced them before, but I think it's really important that we reinforced them again. One of the rules deals with change. And we've all been smacked by this virus. And all of a sudden, we were told you're not allowed to go out of your house, you have to stay home you have to be social distance. And boy did that throw a damper in the role of people who are out there trying to make a living.And I think that's one of the things that the luckiest people in the world have overcome. The second thing that they do is they always, always, always find a positive outcome in everything. And is because they're optimistic. It's because of the way they look at things. But uh, but they work at it to make that happen. And finally, at the end, they come back and they take everything that they've got, and they put it in a plan and they figure out how they're going to work with this going forward. So we're going to take a break in a moment and when we come back, we're going to reintroduce Marc Bernstein Marc has been on our show before, he's a semi regular, but he always has wisdom to import, impart, and he very, very definitely is one of the luckiest people in the world. So let's take a short break Taylor.Diane Dayton  You're listening to changing the rules with k Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world. We will be right back with more exciting information.Ray Loewe  Okay, Marc Bernstein Are you there?Marc Bernstein  I'm here Ray.Ray Loewe  Okay, so, uh, Mark, reintroduce yourself, I could do that. But there's nobody better to do that. Tell us what you do for a living. And then we'll get into your book and a couple of other things.Marc Bernstein  Well, I am a financial planner that I prefer to call myself a fiscal therapist.And that name came from the book or the book came from what I do, but it's called The Fiscal Therapy solution. 1.0. And I find that I call myself that because what I do and what my team does goes a lot deeper than traditional financial planning. It really goes into really understanding our clients, really understanding what it is they value, what they want, what their attitudes are. about money and other things. And then once we know them starting to develop a plan. And the last thing we talk about our financial products, which, unfortunately is what the industry usually discusses, as the first thing,Before we go on real quick, can I make a book recommendation based on your introduction today? Sure. So I'm reading very slowly because I want to absorb it all call it and it's pretty well known called The Untethered Soul. by Michael A. Singer. And it talks exactly about what you're talking about living your own life, and finding your own path. And actually, the book that got me interested in that was the book prior to that. He actually wrote it later. It's like the prequel that he wrote, but I think it helps to read it first because it tells his life story, which is fascinating. And it's called The Surrender Experiment. And what he talks about is his life, which basically he was a hippie in the late 1960s and The early 1970s and he really just wanted to live out in the woods and meditate. And by pursuing his path, he eventually developed a meditation center which became a temple, which people started coming from all over the country, developed into a business. He ended up being the CEO of a multi billion dollar corporation.Little temple in rural Florida. And it's ironic, what's opened opportunities. It's a fascinating story. And he's become a speaker on the subject and he's a he's a great source of information for people that are looking to live their own lives. And as an inspiration lately,Ray Loewe  so well, you know, I've I've known you for a long time and probably going on 30 years over here maybe longer than that. And, and I know you're an attorney, and I'll forgive you for that. Okay, so attorneys are meant to deal with rules. I've never known you to be a rules guy. Really, I think you've always been able to take a look at the rules and figure out how to make things happen that you needed to make happen, to feel happy to be yourself. And we got hit not too long ago, you know, I remember the last time I met you, you know, we met because you were out on the road, you were out seeing people and, and now all of a sudden we have social distancing. And we can't do that anymore. So, so how did that strike you when it happened? And then we'll talk about what you did about it.Marc Bernstein  First of all, I have to clarify, I'm a lawyer. I'm not about breaking law, but I am about changing the rules.Ray Loewe  Like a KC Dempster line.KC Dempster  Yeah. Well, I was married to a lawyer so I kind of know that stuff.Marc Bernstein  Well, and it's also good as a financial planner not to be breaking any laws too. But changing the rules is a whole different story. So how it hit me...So like many of us, you know, all of a sudden I was I was actually visiting my son in Denver, knowing that travel might be restricted soon. It was May the 13th I think when I went out there, and on the way back, I realized that the whole world had changed in about four days. And that we were we were get ready to get shut down that the office was getting shut down. I got into my office once for about an hour before it got shut down. It's still closed. We're not opening my broker dealers not opening our office again until at least September. Wow, I have a feeling it could be longer. I have a feeling we won't be earliest we'll have clients in our office, which is how most of the way you build your business and it's the way I don't mind. People coming in the office. The earliest I think will be January to be honest.I've also just to describe that a little bit. I've been a frequent guest on internet. Television shows the last few weeks I have an agent and I've been on some shows. They picked me to speak on the dynamics of the changing commercial real estate landscape. And it is changing drastically. I mean, major companies are saying, you know, 80% of our clients are going to work from home now. I mean, so so that was the first thing that struck me, I've never worked from home. I never really used a computer very much, you know, for personal use.But, you know, I've always had staff that takes care of, you know, I work on my unique abilities, and those are bringing in business, working with clients doing the planning, and creating strategies and then helping them come to decisions to move forward. Those are the things I'm good at. I'm not good at working computers, I'm not good at, you know, staff, you know, managing staff, and those are not my greatest strengths. So, all of a sudden, I'm home and we got to figure out how to keep our employees motivated. We've got to figure out, I got to figure out how to use the thing that's sitting in front of me. Now I'm very advanced, you know, I'm standing up right now. I have have one of these desks that you can raise the level and I can, you know, I can, I figured out Skype today and figure it out. I'm a Zoom Meister, you know become really good at Zoom so so number one it's been a blessing because think of all the new technical capabilities I have that I didn't have before.So one of the things I realized, so my partners and myself decided that for the first month, we were going to do nothing but keep in touch with our top relationships and just see how they're doing. See if we can support them in any way because it's, you know, it's a really, really tough time for people. And that's what we did. The interesting thing is just by doing that business opportunities came our way number of business opportunities came our way without trying. The next thing I started thinking about was like, that's great, but how do I bring in new business because a certain percentage of our business each year is bringing in new business. Hello, we have a nice base of clients, but that's important as well. Well to bring in new business. So, like, how are we going to do that? So we've been starting to have all these zoom meetings with clients. But now it's a little different when you're, you know, when you're meeting someone for the first time and you're trying to connect on zoom, it's not quite the same thing as connecting with someone. Like I see you guys on my screen and it's easy because I've known you both for many years. So how do you do that? So I came up with this idea and Ray has been Ray and I have talked about and he's been a, you know, an influencer with me on this, that I'm developing a series of webinars right now titled Financial Leadership in Turbulent Times. And we're, um, that was I left my phone on that was Siri talking to me.So, we, um, and it's and it's really a series of ideas and exercises around. What is your vision now versus what it was three months ago? ago I had to go through this myself, or nothing I'm saying six months ago. So to go back to December of 2019. And now it's six months later, well, seven, almost seven months later, but june of 2016, what's changed and what shifted for you? A lot has shifted for me.I, you know, Ray knows my wife and I have talked about where we want to live, we're now our kids are isolated. They're living in different cities. And we're, you know, we're living in this big house by ourselves and say, We don't need this anymore. We just came from our Mountain House. Um, and we're, we decided to sell that and in fact, it's getting sold because we don't get up there enough. And we're thinking about different things we added on to our Vacation Club points because that's more relevant now. Where Where can we meet our kids and spend time together? So our lifestyles changing, things are changing.A lot of my business and and I think ultimately all for the better. But a lot so my my view of what I want really is changed. As Ray said I was traveling a lot I was intending to do more traveling more speaking. And I decided I don't really think I want to do that as much I I'd rather do what we're doing right now I'd like to do podcasts. I like to do more webinars I'd like to do. And I'd like and the other thing is I'm adding a team of people to bring in business, just kind of what I did for many years in my business. And I'm and just by thinking about it, I've had people come to me look from out of the blue that are that are interested in and that's their strength. So it's, you know, it's it's really it's almost, it's amazing in two months, how much has changed, and I think it's all going to be for the good.Ray Loewe  You know, I'm looking forward,  But I I'm looking forward to this this workshop that you're doing which I will be on and and I'm actually bringing a friend line with me. Okay. And it's probably going to turn out to be a new client relationship for you at some point in time. But, but the whole idea is, uh, I've had time to think, just like you have. And when you have time to think, you know, this is what we've never done before where everything was moved, move, move. I love the idea that you're rethinking where you want to live. So you actually now are spending time talking to your spouse? I mean, isn't that a good thing? Right? A lot of times. Yeah. And, and so it's intriguing, and it's exciting. So. So here you are, you've got hit with a change. you've figured out some creative ideas about what has to be done. What's your vision going forward? I mean, you kind of gave us a little piece of it here. But you said you're going to be off the road a little bit more than you were before.Marc Bernstein  I think a lot more I what I decided is I love to travel. But I love to, you know, traveling isn't easy these days, you know, and it's it's only going to get tougher with what's going on now. So what I realized if you have to get somewhere for business, it's a lot of stress. But if you're going on vacation, I said this to my family a long time ago, we have delays if there's a flight delay, whatever happens once we've gotten in the car, we're on our way to the airport, that's our vacation. So if the planes late, it's like big deal, you know, or something happens big deal and it doesn't affect you. So I decided I do want to do more traveling but for pleasure, not for not so much for business anymore. You know, all these conferences I had like four or five conferences canceled between March and June. And be honest with you, I didn't miss any of them. thinking, you know, I'm thinking Am I gonna continue doing those in the future.We you know, the interesting thing is that way you feel is probably how your clients feel too, isn't it? Well, I'm starting to see that, you know, clients are very happy to connect on zoom, they don't have to drive to my office, we don't have to drive there. You know, it saves a lot of time. There's a lot of advantages to to what's coming out of this and the way we're operating. Sure, I want to be belly to belly with people from time to time, I want to see them, you know, get together because I care about them. And, you know, in those days are going to return we're going to be able to do that. But I think we've gotten in the habit. Now we could say to people, would you rather come into the office? Or would you rather do it on Zoo and a lot of like to keep things short? everybody's busy. So I think it's a lot easier to not make big events out of things and just do you know, technology's becoming a big aid and being more efficient with our time and which makes us better able to do the other things we want to do in our lives. So I think it's all great. I really do. Cool. All right. Well, unfortunately, we're getting near the end of our time, boy, time flies.Ray Loewe  fast when we're done, you know, and again, before we close, I just want to remark, this is why you're one of the luckiest people in the world. And I really feel you are because you company, right? Well, you've taken the problem and you've turned it into a very positive thing and and not only are you revamping your life based on it in a positive way, but but I think the insights that you have as a financial advisor, follow through with this because our clients are thinking the same kind of thing. And now you're going to be able to put their plans together in a more exciting, more personal way than you ever were able to do that before. I'm looking forward to this workshop with you. I will be there and let's continue to do some exciting things. And KC, let's decide what we're going to do next week.KC Dempster  Okay, well Next week we're going to be on the podcast again. At this point, I'm not sure if you've told me who our guest is going to be. I look forward to that. Because, secret Yeah, I love meeting these luckiest people. And I just want to remind everybody that the luckiest people in the world weren't born lucky. But they do live, exciting and fulfilling lives. And it's because they made the commitment to learn how to be lucky and they understand that you can't just make you know, make this commitment or do something once you It's a journey. So you constantly have to be reevaluating and looking at your life and figuring out what you need and what you want, and then finding out how to get there. And we have ways of helping people with that. So, you know, what do you think people should do to learn to be lucky and stay lucky?Ray Loewe  Well, they ought to listen to our podcast because every week we have somebody like mark on and and all of the new podcasts going forward are going to feature people that I think are lucky People in the world. They have these mindsets. They're actually doing things that are creative and interesting and exciting in response to changes. In some cases, they're physically changing the rules, but never the law right mark. Never Never the law. And and we're getting excited for getting back in having our Friends Connection again. And that's one thing I don't want to not happen. A party is a party is a party. And when you're surrounded by a bunch of the luckiest people in the world, exciting things happen.And we've got some new books and courses coming out so So Mark, give us once more the final version. Your book that's out is called The Fiscal Therapy Solution. 1.0 available on Amazon.Marc Bernstein  And I have a thought for you before we go. I have a personal trainer that we're training virtually now which is great. I don't have to drive anywhere. Zoom and yesterday he said yes. class because we have a class, but he manages to see everybody individually. And we have back and forth. And he said, is your day happening to you? Are you happening to your day? We have a good day, but you know, who's affecting whom there? Yeah. And proactive and not reactive every day now is, um, you know, is an adventure. And I think it's one of the lessons I've learned from this is make every day meaningful. You know, whatever it is your path, make sure that you're doing things to progress. I think human beings, we're gonna talk about this in the webinar, you know, are built to progress to move forward. If you don't move forward, you're moving backward. So how are you progressing every day in your journey, as you call out? Yeah.Ray Loewe  Well, thanks for your wisdom as usual. And we'll be back next week with a new guest and a new topic. And join us, everybody. Thank you. We'll talk to you next week. Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a podcast design. To help you live your life the way you want, and give you what you need to make it happen.Diane Dayton  Join us in two weeks for our next exciting topics on changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe the luckiest guy in the world.   

In this interview Lisa talks to Dr Tim Ewer an integrated medical practitioner about his approach to medicine some of the complementary therapies he uses besides conventional allopathic medicine and what exciting research is happening around the world - they get into everything from laser therapy to light therapy to hyperbaric oxygen therapy and beyond.   Dr Tim concentrates on individual and personalised  patient care and combines the best of current western medical practices with evidence-based traditional and complementary medicines and practices. Integrative medicine takes into account the physical, psychological, social and spiritual wellbeing of the person with the aim of using the most appropriate and safe evidence-based treatments.   Lisa sees this integrated approach and open minded attitude that is constantly looking at the latest research and technologies and that focuses on the root causes and on optimal health rather than disease as being the way of the future. Dr Tim's Bio in brief  Dr Tim Ewer (MB ChB, MMedSc, MRCP, FRACP, FRNZCGP, DCH, DRCOG, Dip Occ Med, FACNEM) is vocationally qualified as a physician and general practitioner. Tim has been working as a specialist in integrative medicine for the last 30 years, before which he was a hospital physician for 10 years after gaining his medical degree and specialist qualifications in the UK.   Dr Tim's website  https://teora.co.nz/   We would like to thank our sponsors for this show:   For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com   For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/running/ Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics/ measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit: https://www.lisatamati.com/page/mindsetu-mindset-university/   Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds" Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ for more Information   ABOUT THE BOOK: When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn. She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying. This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy. Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine. This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option.   Here's What NY Times Best Selling author and Nobel Prize Winner Author says of The Book: "There is nothing more powerful than overcoming physical illness when doctors don't have answers and the odds are stacked against you. This is a fiercely inspiring journey of a mother and daughter that never give up. It's a powerful example for all of us." —Dr. Bill Andrews, Nobel Prize Winner, author of Curing Aging and Telomere Lengthening. "A hero is someone that refuses to let anything stand in her way, and Lisa Tamati is such an individual. Faced with the insurmountable challenge of bringing her ailing mother back to health, Lisa harnessed a deeper strength to overcome impossible odds. Her story is gritty, genuine and raw, but ultimately uplifting and endearing. If you want to harness the power of hope and conviction to overcome the obstacles in your life, Lisa's inspiring story will show you the path." —Dean Karnazes, New York Times best selling author and Extreme Endurance Athlete.   Transcript of the Podcast:   Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits. The show that helps you reach your full potential with your host. Lisa Tamati brought to you by Lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:12) Well, hi everyone. And welcome back to pushing the limits. It's fantastic to have you this week. I have dr. Tim Ewer, who has an integrated medical practitioner and physician who is based on the beautiful region of in the South Island of New Zealand. And Dr. Tim came to my attention because he has a really an amazing hyperbaric facility in this area. He used to work at the Christchurch hospitals and he's a hyperbaric trying to doctor he's also does a lot of complimentary and integrated medical approaches. So looking at everything from Eastern medicine through to, you know, acupuncture through to laser therapy. And in this conversation today, we have a good real in depth. Talk about where, you know, things are going some of the greatest and latest research and technologies that are coming on stream and some of the exciting developments and his approach to healing people and helping people. Speaker 2: (01:09) I just like to remind you, before I hand over to Dr. Tim my book relentless is now available in stores right throughout New Zealand. It's also available worldwide on Amazon, on audio books. It's in my website at lisatamati.com. I'd love you to go and check that out. And the book is titled relentless. And as the story of bringing my mum back after a mess of aneurysm and being told that she would never do anything again, and this was our journey back, it's a really insightful book that looks at the mindset of overcoming massive challenges. And I really love you to go and read that and to share that with your networks as well. Lastly, before I go, I'd like you to also follow me on Instagram. I'm quite active on Instagram and on my YouTube channel as well. Have over 600 videos on the YouTube channel and including a whole lot of my documentaries that I made from my beaches around the world. If you want to have a look at the YouTube channel that's just it just search for Lisa Tamati on YouTube, and that will come up and on Instagram, it's @lisatamati right now over to Dr. Tim Ewer and of the mapper health center in mapper. Speaker 2: (02:23) Well, hi, everyone. Welcome back to the show this week, I have a special guest, dr. Tim Ewer, Dr. Tim is sitting down and mapper and the views of DePaul sort of Nelson area. How you doing dr. Tim Speaker 3: (02:36) Very well. Thank you strangely a rainy day to day, but that's probably the rest of New Zealand a bit rainy. And normally it's always sunny here. Speaker 2: (02:46) Very sunny place. I was just saying I used to live down there for a few months when I was picking apples back in my young years, and it was hard work, but I'm very a beautiful area to live in. So yeah, you live in a piece of paradise doctor you are as an integrated medical professional and has a hyperbaric clinic down down that way. I don't want it to get dr. tim To talk to, I don't know if we have a doctor, Tim doctor, you are, what would you prefer? I've got to go back to share a little bit about the work that you do and talk about traumatic brain injury in particular as an area that is obviously my interest with my mum's story. So can you give us a little bit of background, your background and how you got into doing what you're doing and the integrative and hyperbaric side of things? Speaker 3: (03:41) Sure. I guess my story from that point of view, start it off. I'm originally from England. So I trained in England at one of the English universities. And even when I finished my training and I'd come out with distinctions and all of those sorts of things I thought there must be more to what medicine's about or what health is about. Let's say than what I have been told. And ever since then, I've been looking to find other ways to, to improve people's wellbeing. So I continued on with my specialist training became what's called a specialist physician. But at the same time, I would sneak off at weekends and go to the London college of acupuncture and learned acupuncture. And I learned medical hypnosis, and I ended up studying nutrition and some homeopathy and a variety of different things, including bioenergetic medicines over the years, of course I spent a bit of time working in hospital as a specialist. Speaker 3: (04:45) And that's actually where I came across hyperbaric medicine. That was in Christchurch where they had a big hospital. I was working in the hospital as a specialist and they had a big hyperbaric chamber there. So I spent seven years helping to run that we did it free and we spent our weekends or nighttime sometimes helping people with the Benz and carbon monoxide poisoning and all sorts of things like that. And at that point, I had a little bit of an existential crisis and decided that I wanted to leave the hospital side and develop my own integrative clinic, which I did. So we're going back 20 or more years now. Wow. And I moved up to this beautiful area and now in, and found a little place to work from and thought, well, if everything goes well, people will eventually just come to me and find me. Speaker 3: (05:35) And that's really what's happened. I started off way back then with just myself and a wonderful Mary receptionist. And now we have 23 staff and that part of the clinic so much so that I've now moved across the road to have a separate integrative clinic so that I can continue to just doing what I like to do with a couple of nurses and myself and two other integrative doctors and an integrative psychologist and these sort of people. So it was a matter of pulling things together over time to, to have a variety of options for people, a variety of it in a way of languages, how to understand disease and wellness. And what I've found over all of those years is that there isn't necessarily, as, as the great sages have often said, there's many paths to the top of the mountain. So it's a matter of finding the right one for each person versus a lot of Western medicine, which is very much scripted in terms of you have this diagnosis, you have this treatment versus you are this person with this variety of different things going on in your life. Speaker 3: (06:54) How can we find ways of getting either balance or detoxed or whatever needs to happen in that process to get it back towards house. Speaker 2: (07:06) So it's sort of looking more towards the root causes and, and as opposed to dealing just with symptoms and looking a little bit outside the box, did you, did you cop a lot of flack for that in the early days with, you know, coming from their sort of allopathic, conventional medicine world and, and looking then at things like acupuncture and you know, things that are outside of the, the standard box, if you like, has it been a difficult road or a in, have you seen that change over the last few years? Speaker 3: (07:42) It's a good question. I think originally I had to do it secretly and it wasn't approved and it was separate too. And I had to, I had to have two different lives as sort of Jekyll and Hyde components going on and you can decide, which is which out of mainstream or holistic. And so that was kind of difficult. But over the years what I found is if I started applying some of these techniques and people simply started getting better my colleagues would say, well, what are you doing? You know, what's, what's happening to those people that don't normally get better and now they're getting better. So that started me, gave me the opportunity to start talking about some of the things I did, but to be honest, while working in the hospital environment, it was quite difficult. So it wasn't until I moved up and started my own separate clinic that it gave me much more space, if you like to practice other things. However, I will say that the conservative elements of the mainstream still quite antagonistic to some of the things that we like to do in integrative medicine. And so there is that sense of walking along the brief tight wire, some of the times and having to basically practice really good medicine in a mainstream way, plus all the other things of both sides. Speaker 2: (09:17) Yeah. Being brilliant in both sides of that. So yeah, I, I mean, I th I see as a, someone who's come, not from a medical background but had a few issues along the way, shall we say, and going, okay, this isn't working, I'm going to look outside the box for myself. And having, you know, a couple of, with my mum, with myself with my brothers some very great success in, in looking outside the box. And I see a a massive movement of, of change and change in mentality now because we have access via the internet and the, and the stuff that we have available by a pub med and all those sort of great places where you can go and do your own research, that it's no longer completely controllable what what we do. And we can take ownership more, and we have the ability to take more ownership that we didn't have when we didn't have the internet and the ability to access great minds and great people and great research and the information that's coming out, you know, on a daily basis. Speaker 2: (10:25) I mean, no person on earth can stay up with it all. It's just so much. So if you wanting to do your own deep dive into a certain area, you can certainly find yourself down some very deep rabbit holes and becoming quite expert in a, in a, in a narrow field that you're trying to research. And do you see that in the people that are coming to you, that there is a shift in the people that are starting to come to you and say, Hey, I've seen this, I've heard about this, I've read about this as this something that's gonna help me. And people taking more ownership in that, in the, in the clientele that you sort of have, Speaker 3: (10:59) I think you're right. I mean, we're part of a informational revolution that's going on at the moment. I did say it's escalating all the time and it's growing and growing, which is a wonderful thing. Most of the time, it's the song, which is either contused or fake news, as they say. And I think being well-informed as the main thing, a lot of this, it is about helping a person become informed about what's going on. And so they can then take more control over themselves because they understand what it's about. And so that's the journey in a sense, it's helping to understand the person to some extent, walking in their shoes a wee bit to see, okay, what's going on? How can I put this together and express it back in a way where that person can make the right changes to bring about what they need to do? Speaker 3: (11:51) That's an edge, a very general of looking at it. Sometimes I had a great example this week of a person who came in a woman who was in her forties. She was well educated, but she had a whole selection of what, in Western medicine, we might consider the bizarre symptoms from neurological ones to skin, to all sorts of things. And she'd seen urologists and various people, and they'd all been scratching their heads about what's going on. She's obviously not, well, we can't put it together. But I said, look, why don't we, why don't we try a different language for this? And I then talked about the whole concept of low kidney energy and how it related to her tinnitus to her lack of mental agility to all sorts of components. And it's not to say it was just a way of bringing a whole raft of things together in a way that had a sense to it, rather than a sort of chaos, that, that chaos can be very unsettling and you don't know how to make sense. And particularly the experts can't make sense of it. Then you're kind of stuck with what the heck's going on. I might just going mad and, and she wasn't, she was just having a whole series of different things, which we could start bringing together under an umbrella of understanding. And even though we didn't have to use TCM as part of the treatment necessarily it gave it, she felt so much more at ease by the end of that, with an explanation that seemed to bring things together. Speaker 2: (13:36) Yeah. And it enabled her to maybe take a new approach to the way, say if you're getting disparate sort of information. Cause it was really hard when you're looking at sometimes your, your symptoms and then trying to go, well, where is this coming from? And what is it, you know? And it could be a myriad of things and trying to piece it together. You must have an incredible brain to be able to hold all of these, facets it without any sort of contradicting you know, dogmas even with an, in the knowledge that you have. Do you find that a bit of a juggling act at times, Speaker 3: (14:14) Strangely enough, not much. There are various possibilities for that. One is if you're into astrology, I'm a Gemini. I'm not a great, astrologist mind you, but there's two of me. And so we can talk to each other. I was brought up in a way where I, interestingly I don't want to get into my personal background particularly, but at one point I was went to a very expensive English school, but I actually stayed with my mother in a council house in a really poor area. So I went from one group of, in the morning to another one in the evening. Wow. And you had to talk the language of both. Yeah, yeah. To work it through. And I think that a sense of dance of life is good because it makes one, I'm able to cope with lots of different things at the same time, try and bring them together Speaker 2: (15:15) And being able to relate to people. It was, it wouldn't be a brilliant training and being able to be on every level and, and talk to people and communicate and, you know having this wealth of knowledge from all of these different disciplines and science areas, it must be very, you know, like to have that broad spectrum integrated approach. I think, you know, I wish there were more doctors available in New Zealand. There was, you know, we were starting to see more functional and integrated practitioners coming out and then you've got, you know, your, your whole health coach coaching in different areas. But it's a, it's a, certainly a changing world. And I'm hoping that there was going to be some change hopefully in the mainstream. Speaker 3: (16:02) Yeah. I mean, I've put up a little plugin and I may about those an organization called Amer the Australasian integrative medicine association, which is a mix of both doctors who do integrative medicine and also other health practitioners. And so on their websites, you can often get information about integrated doctors around New Zealand and Australia. Speaker 2: (16:25) Fabulous. That's a really good tip. I'll put that in the, in the show, Speaker 3: (16:30) Dub, dub, dub, amer.net.edu, but New Zealand. Speaker 2: (16:35) Okay. Well, we'll check that out. Cause you're getting in all sorts of lists of people. Now let's go a little bit into hyperbaric and I wanted to sort of touch on today. Some of the possible treatments for brain injury whether that's, you know, from stroke or traumatic brain injury or you know, concussions or aneurysms, in my case with mum your, your experience with hyperbaric in the, the medical grave facilities, I've had a mild hyperbaric chamber. My mum who might listen, sort of know my story with my mum. Four years ago, we had this disaster after three months in hospital, we've told, you know, put her in a, in a hospital level care facility and she'll never do anything again, she's major brain damage. I found hyperbaric on the internet and I managed to get a a commercial dive company that let me have access for a while. Speaker 2: (17:38) And then I had such success there that I ended up buying a mild hyperbaric chamber and installing it and out in their home and put her through she's had over 250 sessions now at 1.5 atmospheres that combined, and that, wasn't the only thing I did. And it ended up being an eight hour protocol every day that I sort of put together from pieces from functional neurology and nootropics and epigenetics and functional genomics and really diving deep for the last four years into the science and doing what I could, you know, it was either do everything I can or lose my mom. Those were the two options. So I was desperate to get her back. And on that journey, I've, I've hyperbaric is so powerful. His has so many things that it can be really good for. What, what are your experiences where that and the work that you did in the hospital and what it's actually recognized for versus what it overseas, perhaps as being used for two different things, aren't they, what's your take on that Speaker 3: (18:51) Sort of conventional set of indications for using hyperbaric? We still hospitals use we only have two hospital hyperbarics in New Zealand and one in Christchurch and one in Devonport which is really the Navy one rusty open hospital used us. Other than that, they're all private ones. So the hospital ones really is the history they came from. They came from a Navy based history for treating the bins really, or in the ancient days, you go back a hundred years, a case, some workers, which of the people that put in pylons for building bridges on the go of the water, they had to put the pylons in and they would get the bins and the bins. It was because when they came up, they were in pain and they were bent over because they were having gobbles coming out into their spine and their muscles. Speaker 3: (19:49) So yeah, the hospital based ones are really a very strict set of criteria. Like as I said, the bins various forms of severe infection, gangrene infections a few other conditions like carbon monoxide poisoning, possibly cyanide poisoning. But there limited number of conditions. It doesn't include brain injury. It doesn't include strokes. It doesn't include neurodegenerative diseases. It doesn't, Incruse clued fibromyalgia, a whole raft of things where we now realize there's reasonable evidence that it has some impact. One of the troubles with medicine is you'll know, is that it relies on this gold standard thing called a randomized controlled trial, where you have to do a very difficult process of having a placebo group and a treatment group. And for doing that, the hyperbaric is a nightmare because to try and have a treatment that isn't a treatment that looks like a treatment is quite hard. Speaker 3: (20:59) A lot of the work that's been done is kind of on the edge of how good it is. So most of the research we tend to see about is where we've used it lots of times and have said, ah, this seems to be working it's anecdotal it's case series. And there are some great researchers used, you'll know, like poor hearts in the States and so on. And to give some credit, the Russians have been doing it for much longer, but a lot of this stuff is unpublished. So there's a huge amount of volume of work going on around the world. And now one of the best units is in Israel. They've got some great work going on there. So, but these are the kind of these are the people going outside, the normal bubble of what's accepted as, okay. And yet they're getting good results as far as we can tell until you get that ask TT of gold standard, the conventional systems unlikely to change, that's the problem. Speaker 2: (22:02) And the, the having, you know, the randomized control trials is just not going to happen. And something like hyperbaric that hasn't got a patentable drug, realistically, the costs are too high aren't, they, Speaker 3: (22:14) It is high and there have been some trials, but they nearly always stop at 20 treatments. That that's the number that they stop at. Yeah. That's, it's kinda like I'm saying you've been on a drug per month and let's see how it's worked is it's kind of that way of thinking Speaker 2: (22:35) The genetic shifts happening, right. Speaker 3: (22:37) 200 hours of training as a whole lot of things that aren't going to happen in that time period, or they are, it's going to be fairly mild, not, not as far as you could. And as you know, one of things with the poor hearts researchers, he kept doing spec scans and checking up on patients and he found that they were still improving at 80 treatments, still improving. I mean, Hey, so we stop at 20 with our RCTs. It's not a great place to design. Is this working or not? Speaker 2: (23:08) And, and, you know, I mean, I know with, with mom I've yeah. Like I said, put her through 250, you know and I still continue to see improvements and I do it in blocks now, and then I give her a break from it. And it's in those breaks when you often get the next level of, of improvement. Speaker 3: (23:27) I think that is the epigenetic effect probably saying, Speaker 2: (23:32) Yeah. You know, to fix apparently 8,000 genes that can be influenced by these epigenetic shifts. And it's, it's, it's I like going to the gym, you know, I'm not going to go to the gym and then three weeks time out looking like taught. So they got, or, you know, it doesn't happen that quickly, but the NGO Genesis the inflammation, the STEM cell production, certainly at the higher or lower pressures they happen over time. Do you see also a benefit and stacking it for the ones who have a better word with other protocols? So, so other things like ozone therapy, for example, or P myth therapy or anything else that you find beneficial combining? Speaker 3: (24:23) I think, I mean, I would say yes in a, in a clinical sense of experience, but I couldn't say that there are trials with trials to say, like to have only one or two variables. They don't want to throw a whole lot in at once. You agreed, I would start probably with nutrition and there are a number of nutrients, which you know about that you can throw into the equation. I think as auxiliary treatments my particular interest at the moment is photobiomodulation, it's using laser treatment. Speaker 2: (24:56) Oh, I would be very interested to hear what you have to say about photos. Speaker 3: (25:01) So I think this to me is an up and coming thing. I've spent the last two or three summers going to a conference in Germany, a laser conference where some of the, the experts get together from around the world. And they talk about these things. I've also been to one in Australia last October. What, what we're now what we've known about. Okay. Let me tell the curve. Speaker 4: (25:28) Okay. Speaker 3: (25:30) Phases. We're not talking about cutting lasers, which are where you focus the beam to a point. So drill holes and things like James Bond. You know, that's not one of those, okay. We're talking about parallel, light photons. That is they're going side by side. So they're not drilling holes in you. And what happens with that? And there's a lot of great research, and this is where there's far more research out there than most people know about, because unless you're interested in this field, you don't go looking for it. I've got quite a big database now looking at all this stuff. And what we w one of the things that, that does, it does a whole rock to things a bit like hyperbaric. But it particularly affects the mitochondria because your mitochondria are the little components in every cell of your body, pretty well, that produces energy in terms of ATP and NADH as well. Speaker 3: (26:27) And those mitochondria, well, if we go back a little bit in time, those mitochondria, I actually what's called proteobacteria in the ancient of days, they were bacteria that had been incorporated into you carry out excels and also the cells, because they needed a bigger energy source. These provided the energy. So we became part of the place, if you see what I mean. So the interesting thing about mitochondria in their rules are what we call chromophores, which are proteins that react to light because that's how the bacteria actually got their energy originally, like plants. They were converting sunlight into energy. Okay. So how about how mitochondria respond to light at different frequencies? So different frequencies do dislike your different chemical reactions in the mitochondria. What so that's one little pack to hold onto it. And when that happens, a number of things happen. Speaker 3: (27:31) One, you get obviously the ability to produce a whole lot of repair mechanisms get stimulated energy mechanisms get stimulated. You turn off excessive inflammation, a whole lot of things you want to happen happen by getting your mitochondria to work properly. And in fact, one of the concerns that even about getting older and aging is that our mitochondria are not functioning properly, or we have less salt. It is the basis of aging really isn't it? Mitochondrial dysfunction, certainly one of the big, big keys. So different frequencies will do different stimulate different components. So we now know with lasers, we use different colored blazers to get different effects. However, the big problem is that if you try and print, since you use blue or yellow, the penetration is very small. So, but as you go towards red, you get more and more penetration. Speaker 3: (28:30) And what most of us now use is infrared. Infrared is the most penetrating of all colors. And what you can now do is, is get lasers that will penetrate right through bone, even through the skull, into the brain very effectively. I can give you a story if you want a story. It depends on what, what got me really interested in this area was another bit of serendipity where a number of years ago a patient in Oakland well, it's man in Oakland phoned me. I said, look, my wife has got this terrible thoracic vertebrae, vertebral abscess. So several vertebrae and unless she has continuous antibiotics she gets very unwell and in a lot of pain. And so she'd been on antibiotics for 18 months and every time she stopped it, it flared up badly to the point that they said, look, the only next thing we can do is do an operation where they go in through the past the lungs, through the anterior approach, which is to scoop out the dead material and pass and try and rebuild the spine, which is a dangerous operation horrific. Speaker 3: (29:53) And so the husband who was not an entrepreneur, he had did some research. He's a very bright guy and he came across hyperbaric oxygen. And so he found me because I, at the time was the only person with a high pressure, private hospitals refuse to do anything. That's fine. When in doubt we started treatment and we were part way through the treatment. And he came in to me and he said, Hey, Hey Tim, what do you know about lasers? And I said, well, not a lot, really. And it's developed, have you seen these papers? How power lasers at certain frequencies will kill bacteria, including staphylococcus, which she had. Wow. I thought, wow, that's interesting. And I read up on some papers and I then researched more and I came back to him a day or so later and say, Hey, look, you're right. This looks quite promising. Speaker 3: (30:50) He then said to me, okay, look, you find me the right laser. And I'll get it here in three days from anywhere in the world. I thought, wow, that's a good, I haven't been asked to do that before. So I found this one in the States, which was 25,000 U S wow. He had it there in three days. Boom. Wow. And we just started treating with both. And the long and the short is after two sets for treatments, she has been able to stop all her antibiotics and has stayed role for the last 18 months, two years while having any problem, it's amazing basically, and the MRIs improved and everything's, you know, there's new bone growth and so forth. So it just gave me that insight of, wow, there's so much information out there. Why didn't I know about it. So I got to know about it. Speaker 3: (31:42) I've been to these conferences. So now I'm starting to use a similar laser to the one he got just by the way, anyone who wants to get one, I found that his was actually made in China and I got it for a third, the price, what was it called? Because I'd love to have a look into that myself. Yeah. So it's a, it's a nice, it's a classical advisor. So you don't want to play there ladies as have class one to four and four is the most powerful, so you've got to be married. Yeah. So you've just got to be careful. Don't China in people's eyes and things like that. But anyway, so I've been using this for a number of different situations and there's some great research, randomized control trials of various things. One of them, which I found quite amazing is using it to depression, where they showed that if you did the left frontal area that in a randomized controlled trial, they improved similar to drug treatment. So there we go. Speaker 2: (32:46) Is that something looking at the vitamin D pathways or something like that? Or is it, Speaker 3: (32:53) I don't think so. No. I think it's a separate effect on we know from, in terms of depression also that often it's, so their frontal area on a QEG that's the main area, or if you do a functional MRI. And so it's just that, that was the area of this one to work on, to improve its functioning. So the thing with the laser is it's simply trying to restore a normal cell function as best it can. Speaker 2: (33:18) Is that laser available? Like, can you as a nonmedical professional get one of these, I mean, this gentlemen Speaker 3: (33:27) Far Mark Palmer exciting because a lot of this work's been done with the sort of laser that I would have the cost for, but then I'm realizing that low level laser treatment, L L T low level laser treatment, which is class three, but even on art seems to work. And what, when I say that, believe it or not is that this is something that's in the usually 50 to 500 milliwatt versus I'm using 15 Watts or 15,000 milli Watts. So what we initially thought is Hey, how can that possibly get through the skin, the underlying tissue, the skull, and into the brain and that level of power. It just didn't make sense. And yet the trials showed that it does. And what we now realize is that the skull, when you look at it with very high powered electron microscopes sections actually has this lattice works of tubules going through it, which the light can probably pass through. Wow. Because otherwise it just didn't make sense that something could hit this solid bone and still get through when, if you did it on the, on something similar thickness without those channels, it wouldn't so that, but anyway, so low level lasers are looking very good at the moment and they're much cheaper and much easier to use different ones. Speaker 2: (35:06) Yeah. I've got I've I've got two from via light. The 16, yes. I've got the two ones that go up up the nostril at the nasal ones at the, what is it? The eight, eight 55 or something in him. Speaker 3: (35:21) That's the nanometers. So that's the actual wavelengths of which is infrared. But then they piggyback onto that they what they call modulator. So that I think the one I've got the neuro one as well, which is still the 40 Hertz one. I haven't got that one, but 10 Hertz one. Yeah. That's the one that goes across the skull. Is it doing that? It's the actual, so what, this gets much more kind of exciting in a way, from my point of view, if you get, if you're excited by tech technical things, is that they, the wavelength of the infrared, which is the 800 to 800 to a thousand nanometers, roughly yes. Infrared that wavelength is what is going through into, in this case, the brain what you can do is you can pulse that process and that then becomes a frequency that's received by the tissue. Speaker 3: (36:24) So to some extent, the wave length going in is doing one set of things. And then on top of that, you can what I call piggyback, but the correct name is modulating the, so that you get a frequency, which has different effects. Now I'll give you an example a year or two ago a patient who was a local barista fell off his mountain bike and did the usual over the handlebars, hit his head, got concussed and tried to go back to work, but he is it problem with it. He had a cognitive deficit where he couldn't tolerate much noise people or anything, as soon as there was a lot going on his brain sort of short circuited, he couldn't think. And as a barista, that didn't work, he couldn't interact with people. So he had to stop working and this went on for months and he wasn't recovering. Speaker 3: (37:24) So he came to steamy and I said, look, okay, we'll use the laser. And we did a few sessions without obviously much improvement at what we call a continuous rate where it's just the infrared process. But then I looked at some of the research and I thought, what I can do on my laser, I can actually put in any frequency I want, I can change it. It's a sort of fairly clever one. And I, so I put it at 10 Hertz frequency that session from then onwards, he just got better and better and better and went back to work and he knew it the next day. He'd said, look, I'm so much better just from that one session once we did the 10 Hertz. So what we're understanding now, there's a lot of research going on around the world here. The guy cut in the States called Michael Hamblin. Speaker 3: (38:15) Who's one of the sort of gurus of this, but also in Australia and in Tasmania, interesting enough, they're doing a whole load of research. Look at these frequencies, looking at what's bears, looking at what how much you need and what they're finding. It's a little bit like hyperbaric. When I started doing hyperbaric, we used very high pressure as well, partly because we're treating divers, but a lot of the therapy was based on two to 2.4 atmospheres treatment and everything, as you know, what, what requirement is actually, some of the lower pressures are better for certain situations restore brain function. And they're finding that with the lasers, you don't necessarily have to hammer it in hard with a very high level. It's more of about the subtleties of the right frequencies, the right dose, the right evidencing. So this is where a lot of work's going on. I don't think we've got all the answers by a long way, but I think it's a very exciting field risk, low risk, you know, very low risk. What we do know about, as you're saying these lays, this sort of laser is pretty well without risk providing you don't look at it. And with the sort of laser I've got that if you hold it in one place, it gets too hot. So there's a heat element. Whereas the low level that doesn't happen, they using led lights now instead of laser. So Speaker 2: (39:43) I saw one just yesterday when I was doing some research on tinnitus I've forgotten the name of it, Luma meat or something like that. Laser therapy that they're doing the doctor in Australia was doing it for the inner ear to regenerate the hears on the inner ear to help, you know, tonight as suburb sufferers and his disease suffers. And then we're getting lots of success with that. And I certainly, you know, when I heard about it and did some, some research on it for mum, I think it's been a part of her recovery as well. I only had internet-based the nasal ones and I had one at the 600, the 600 in him and the other one at the eight, eight 50. But I'd like to look into this more. It seems to be a lot going on around frequencies general, whether it's light frequencies or PEMF pulsed electromagnetic field. Do you know anything about the PE EMF at all? Speaker 3: (40:42) Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really exciting area. It's it's, to some extent it started off with someone called Royal rife in the, in the States. Do you know, do you know about him? He's a, he was a doctor back in the 1930s, forties, fifties. It was really quite a brilliant doctor, but actually ended up in a sad situation because, well, I'll come to that. So he started looking at how frequencies could be used in medicine. And what he found is that by using, he had a cathode Ray tube in those days to produce them. And he also developed at the time, the most powerful microscope light microscope that existed a very intricate complex microscope that allowed him to look at cells while they're alive. What's called dark microscopy, which was very new at the time. Speaker 3: (41:43) And what it could do is look at cells and then the mom with his catheter, gray different frequencies and see what happened to them. And what he found is that he retained some frequencies and see different things. So he kept saying, you know, if you're trying to kill this by this seems to be the right frequency or this cancer, this frequency seems to be the right frequency and did a of research over a years and started getting some really quite astounding success with these patients. And a number of his close friends started their colleagues. We started using similar instruments and again, started doing very well until the FDA got winded at all. And they came in and Congress skated every part of his equipment that he had, and he was left in ruins. But and yet there's a huge amount of information left behind about what he was doing. And so a lot of the ideas of different frequencies for different illnesses came from his early work. Speaker 2: (42:49) That's right. I do remember that story now. And there is a few of his machines that have been Speaker 3: (42:54) Absolutely. So there are some original ones possibly when they say original, it's really hard to know because we don't know really what the regional ones, cause there's some sort of stronghold by the FDA got rid of them, but there's also some very modern versions of them now, which are computerized, which obviously he couldn't do. But so just to say that I think the electromagnetic field concept I mean, we're, we're in a very low electromagnetic field when we're not around other gadgetry and we're inside the field of the earth, which, you know, the Schumann frequency, which are an important frequency that have been there since, you know, we evolved. So they are part of our evolution. So they're part of what is normal for us. And so those frequencies are quite important frequencies. When we start coming in with very set frequencies, like 50 Hertz for electricity and all these other things, we're actually interfering with a whole normal ability to stay in homeo homeostasis, to some extent. Speaker 2: (44:06) And this is where, yeah, the EMF side of the argument, or, you know, the, the problems that we're possibly facing with, with CMS, it's from all our devices and 5g coming, goodness knows what's X gonna do. And PEMF is very different though. It's using the right frequencies Speaker 3: (44:24) That's and it's also using the therapeutic way. And by and large, in, in at a low level, rather than a level, you don't necessarily, again, have to use these massive magnetic fields to get the effect that you want. You can use really very subtle ones. Speaker 2: (44:39) And again, it's working on the mitochondria, I believe from the research that I've done, it's actually having an effect on the mitochondrial health and function. And I, I just, I wish we had a, I wish everybody could have access to a place where we had all of these things lined up next to each other and, you know, the ones that are lower risk at least that we could all, you know, be able to use without huge costs involved in a utopia, perhaps something like that. Yeah. Speaker 3: (45:08) I think we're moving a little bit towards that and I expect, and maybe on another occasion, I'll talk about sound therapy and how the that's another component of frequency, but I, I agree you can use to CS, which is cranial electric stimulation very simple devices like the alpha STEM, very expensive, what it is that almost immediately induces a sleepy, relaxed state. Speaker 2: (45:40) Yes. Yeah, I'll be, I'll be in that one too. So yes, Speaker 3: (45:46) It's kind of bizarre that you can just put two clips. I kept on each year and start the machine. And within minutes you're feeling drowsy and very relaxed, Speaker 2: (45:57) But it's mentioned and Ben Greenfield, he's a famous biohacker and trainer out of the States and his new book boundless, which is quite an amazing book. It's got, you know, everything known to man, and then he mentions the CES and using that to, to go to sleep every night and how it's improved as her sleep. So there's just so much things that are coming. And I, and I find it really exciting if we can integrate the traditional medical model with some of these like you are doing. And it's a really exciting thing for me. And I just wish we had more access for more people. It is, you see, before I don't need any promotion because I have so many people wanting to come to me and I can, I can truly believe that because there's such a need out there. Speaker 3: (46:49) The wonderful, unfortunately there are a few old phrases in medicine. One is that medicine changes coding. When the previous generation dies. It tends to prove slowly Speaker 2: (47:04) It's hard, Speaker 3: (47:07) People vote with their feet. And I think that's what we're seeing. A lot of people are actually saying, I don't want this. I want that. Rather than just accepting what's there, that's very healthy on the whole saying, okay, I'm, I'm getting quite informed about what I think I need. I just need someone to guide me through that process and if necessary me with some of the resources. And so I think that's a very important thing. And I think by and large, it is being embraced a bit in general practice to some extent, but probably less so as you move up the ladder into secondary and tertiary care, which is a kind of specialist areas, Speaker 2: (47:48) And this is why I think it's important that you know, where, you know, want to be in the preventative space where possible, so that we, you know, are looking at things before it gets to the point where everything's taken out of your control, because you're now in the intensive care or in the hospital, some where it's actually impossible to get any of these things. And it's important that we take control and ownership. And this is what the show is really all about is, is educating people about the things that are out there and the things that they can do their own research is it's a curation. If you like of information from brilliant minds in different areas, so that we can have, these can have these conversations and open up these discussions so that we can start to realize that there is more than just a pharmaceutical model or a surgical model, which is mostly what we were offered. I mean, those are very important and very good, but Speaker 3: (48:44) Yeah, they're largely the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. To some extent they have much more difficulty dealing with chronic longterm problems. They're good for the acute and the end, if, you know, if I break my leg, I'm going straight to the hospital. Speaker 2: (49:00) Yeah. Yeah. And then you might come home and do a hyperbaric session on the way home. Speaker 3: (49:07) Most of my I'd live in it. Speaker 2: (49:09) Exactly. I would tell you if I have one that you've got, that's brilliant. Just coming back to hormone sorry. I wanted to talk about hormones in relation to brain injury. Is there something you're seeing yes, under diagnosed often with traumatic brain injuries, especially Speaker 3: (49:28) A very interesting point. You bring up in time. I should I have a whole presentation on all of this, but one of the papers I'm just kind of going to, Speaker 2: (49:38) I have to get you back on to, to take us through the whole presentation. Speaker 3: (49:43) Okay. So this is, I'm just reading from my slide now, the prevalence of hypo pituitary ism. So you put your three glands just behind your eyes and produce several homelands in mild, moderate, and severe brain injury was estimated at 16.8% for mild. So that's nearly 17% interesting, only 10.9 for moderate and 35% for severe TBI. But what that saying is that people can have interference with some of their hormone production or a relatively mild event. TBI is common. We now realize one of the big things that's only recently kind of come to is how frequent TBI and what we call MTBI mild, traumatic brain injury, and eh, from sports through to domestic violence, through to all sorts of things where people are getting minor injuries all the time. When I say all the time, several in a row or within a period of time. Speaker 3: (50:49) And it can be that I had a sort of patient just this week, for instance, had come up from Christchurch to see me who had had an injury a year ago, where he had walked into a metal bar, cause he was looking the wrong way and wasn't actually knocked out. Then when I started talking about it, he said, Oh, well, yeah. And the previous year I did that. And then I fell over and hit my head, did that. And before that, and we had this whole series of minor traumatic brain injuries, and this was a store on the camel's back because since his last one he's hardly been able to work. He can't concentrate all these things that are familiar to us with MTBI. And so it's often that kind of background of quite a few, and then something knocks you out when they're not bad words, but something pushes you over the edge. Speaker 2: (51:42) And then you start to have, well, actually a year, we he's had some consult consults with me as well. And I've it, it, I think people think that they have to have her knocked out, had a major car accident before anything is actually a real problem or if they had it. So in the case of my brother who was a professional rugby player some of the things that I'm seeing in him now, and I have permission to talk about us information are signs to me of a delayed response to brain injury and, you know, helping him work through all of those, but often you, you won't know that it was the thing that you did 10 years ago, perhaps that can still be affecting your brain or that your personality has changed because of a brain injury or your energy levels, your hormones and so on. And this is why it's really important. Speaker 3: (52:42) And I'd also add in there that that store on the camel's back of that minor injury may actually be because there are other things going on, like other toxins, whether they're heavy metals are related to what you're working and so forth. So there can be a variety of other things that was sitting there in the background and until really challenged, didn't seem to have a problem with them yet when you're challenged, you do, and you then have to deal with those as well, come right through a detox process quite often to deal with some of the oldest. Well, some of the background stuff I should say. Speaker 2: (53:26) Yeah. And so, you know, looking at like with brain injury and optimizing brain health, we need to be looking at foundational health issues as well as okay. For the fancier things like the hyperbaric and the laser and all of those, the hormone assessment and, and starting to, to educate people around, you know, systemic inflammation and the job of mitochondria and all of these aspects, which heavy metal detoxing, which is something that we should all probably be interested in. And then layering on top of it. Some of these other therapies and that multipronged approach is something that I think has been the reason that I think I've been successful with mom is that having those, those layers and then continuing to look, what is the next thing, what is the next area that I can explore to bring the next but back? And as you say, it can build on each other. And as we get older, we build more toxicity in our body from metals. Most of us have got some sort of, Speaker 3: (54:27) We don't have history. Speaker 2: (54:29) We do, and we collect it and then it starts to it's that bucket there's that we sort of manage it to here and then it overflows and then it's all sorts coming out. So let's, you know, being in that preventative mindset of, okay, I'm going to help my body detox before I perhaps get something else happen to me. You know, it can be a good, a good way of looking at it. W we've covered a whole lot of areas everywhere. Just one last question for me, an area that I'm interested in, I've just got a new kit, new ozone therapy kit. What's your take on ozone? This is something I've just been getting into the last couple of weeks and researching is it, you know, like it seems to have some of the same benefits as hyperbaric in, in a way a different process and delivery, but it seems to be quite similar in some aspects. Have you had any experience with those on, at all Speaker 3: (55:30) A bit? I'm not an expert on it, so I'll say that, but I've read a fair amount on it. And I have a colleague working for my clinic now who has a perfusion equipment, which kind of topics I think like many things, it's a double edged sword. So people, first of all, must never have agree. Those are toxic to the lungs. So the idea that, Oh, I'll just get a kit and breed. Some is the completely wrong thing to do. So it has to be introduced into the body. And that's where we run into problems. First of all, because you can put it in through various artifices yep. Other than the breathing one. And that makes it plain or it can be given and it can be given intravenously in two ways. One literally as a bonus ozone, which is somewhat, could be risky. Speaker 3: (56:36) And although those that use it say that it isn't or you can take some blood off, mix it with Arizona and reproduce it, which is the one in Germany has been done for many years now. So there's quite a lot of research from them about its use. And I think it, it has a definite role as a, as a strong antiseptic for the staff. So in terms of killing bugs within the organism it probably has an anti cancer component. The problem with when we say probably is actually getting the research done. So again, this is more anecdotal evidence but it, it has a way of re oxygen icing, very similar, I think, to hyperbaric, but also sterilizing as well, which is slightly different from hyperbaric to barricade. It has to be an anaerobic bug for that to work. So I think it does have some definite roles. I think if you're doing your run, you you're talking, it's going to be very careful Speaker 2: (57:46) The home therapy. Yeah. That's ear insufflation and rectal insufflation cupping, that type of thing. But yes. Yeah, I think, I think it's a good thing to have a few obviously need to be taught and doing some training in it this week how to, how to use it safely. Definitely don't want it anywhere near your lungs. But it, it, that dangerous side, as far as the lungs is concerned, a very good thing to have as a basic first aid for any infection that you get, you know, speak Corona even maybe they are looking into the research at the moment is if it can help with the coronavirus. And I've got a dr. Rowan coming on my show next week, who's one of the world's top experts and ozone therapies are really excited. He actually went to Africa and the Ebola crisis got shut down, unfortunately by, shall we say the mafia somewhere over the, there, when he was treating patients and treating in training the doctors and it, but it is a very, it seems to have a lot of research over a long period of time. Speaker 2: (58:56) And again I think a very interesting one to do more research on yourself and to maybe add into the, to the, to the list of things that you can do. Speaker 3: (59:08) I definitely think so. And of course, you know, for me, I would be probably if I was concerned about personally concerned about Kobe, be using high dose intravenous vitamin C, which we do here anyway. So that's part of the same. But you brought up than I did. One of the research the Germans had done in Africa on malaria was using one of the blue lasers intravenously or into the vein while taking one of the B vitamins, which so this is using PDT, which is photo dynamic therapy. So photo meaning the laser dynamic, meaning you give something which sensitizes, whatever the target is to the laser in this case, it's the bacteria, or at least in his, but it's actually the malaria parasite I should say. And they showed very definite success with doing this wow light and the vitamin B irradiation. Speaker 3: (01:00:18) I think they call that. Yeah, there's UV radiation too. So this is a this is using PDT, which is similar, but using, for instance, one of the things that I've been working with is PDT here, where we use the infrared laser with the sensitizing agent, which is called InDesign and green. It's a green dye that they eye specialists use to look at the back of your eye and cancer cells taken up preferentially to normal cells and hold on to it. Whereas normal cells pass it through within 30 minutes. Wow. So what you do is you give this an hour or two before your treatment and then shine the laser light at the cancer. And I've had one remarkable disappearance of a cancer just doing that. So again, for everybody, before I get too many times, this is an area of interest and it's cool PDT photo dynamics. Speaker 3: (01:01:25) So using light with an agent that don't and I also use an ultrasound machine and the thing that sensitizes you to Roxanne is curcumin. So and using ultrasound and because Tim was hold onto it for a long time, you can use that to, Hmm, goodness. Isn't that funny? That's without me now, they won't go SPD T so no photodynamic therapy, right? I'm going to have to look at that one. Now this is experimental. So it's research stuff. So that's not something that's out there for everyone to go and get it's something being looked at around the world. There's a huge amount of research going on in medical circles and sciences to find the right agents, the lights frequencies and so forth, but a promising area using nanotechnology to deliver the sensitizer to the cancer as well. There's a lot of very fancy stuff going on. Speaker 2: (01:02:34) Wow. This is very exciting. Well, I think we've covered a lot of ground today. Heaven. We thank you so much, dr. Tome. I really appreciate your time. And the fact that you, we, you know, we have such a great doctor in our midst and who is looking at all of these very exciting areas and integrating knowledge from all areas and having such an open approach to it. I think that's absolutely brilliant. I wish you were bit more local. It would be good. I would love to have you again on the show to talk about, maybe do a presentation and the, the the information that you were talking about the just earlier at some stage when you have time, but I'm super appreciative of your time. Did I know that you're an extremely busy man? Is there anything that you would like to say to wrap up the show or any, any final words? Speaker 3: (01:03:28) I think just I'd support the whole idea of, of integrative medicine as a. And I think that can involve a whole load of different health practitioners working together to get that model by the way, rather than just one person as the way forward to the future for getting, not just from disease to some degree of wellness, but getting to full wellbeing, the next layer up. And I think that's really where we're heading and a lot of ways through lifestyle, you know, diet, all of these different things. And to me, like you've been talking about today, what excites me particularly is the idea of using light color sound and vibration as part of that journey. I think it's fascinating. I think we're only partway there. We haven't mentioned sound yet. That's another whole area, so there's some interesting things going on to try to make that happen. Speaker 2: (01:04:21) Very exciting times ahead. I can't wait for a little bit more research to happen and to make it more less expensive in more doable for people so that they can actually get up. Dr. Tim, thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it. And we hope to, Hey, hope to have you on again soon. Speaker 1: (01:04:42) That's it this week for pushing the limits, be sure to write review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com

- David Mills But I promise you, anyone who's hearing this. There are absolutely incredible things about you that other people see that you don't see. So be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with yourself, because there's always gonna be parts of yourself that you personally you don't feel like you can fully with. And there's a lot of ways to address that. Alcohol is one of the ways. There are a lot of other ways, too.   INTRO   This is a special, COVID-19 edition of the Handle with Care podcast.  In these unstable times, we are shining light on stories and experiences that will, hopefully, open your perspective to yourself and others.   Today, I am welcoming back a friend of the show, David Mills.  David was a guest in the summer of last year.  He talked about his journey through divorce, depression, and alcoholism.  If you missed the episode, go back and listen after you finish this listening to his one.  His reflections are honest and generous and insightful and I’ve welcomed him back to talk about what it has been like to stay sober and find emotional stability during this time of social isolation.    As you scroll through Facebook or any social media feed, you will see people talking about the necessity of a glass of wine at the end of the day, or in the middle of the day, or with their breakfast.  Alcohol stores are classified as an essential business.  And, whether it is alcohol or binge watching or baking, we are all finding ways tt cope with our inner monologue during a time of tremendous stress.    Before we jump in, I want to thank our sponsors.  FullStak PEO is a friend of the podcast and a great group of people.  FullStack provides benefits and support to small businesses and entrepreneurs.  In times of uncertainty, making sure your people are taken care of is so essential.  FullStack can help.  We are also sponsored by Motivosity, an employee-engagement platform that brings fun and gratitude to your workspace.   I interviewed David at the close of March, two weeks into the quarantine.  Like so many of you, I was navigating children and work, taking refuge in my closet to record our session.   - Liesel Mertes Oh, no, no, no. It had been it has been. As we've waited for you, I've had Magnus come in. We been being like, Ada says that she has to practice for basketball, but she doesn't even play basketball. And I just want to be alone. I've been cooped up in the house. I don't want her to be in the yard and be like Magnus. She's seen me hard with you and him be like.   - Liesel Mertes But I and her being like, really sassy about controlling the music because that's the streaming i-Pad. But the younger kids are watching Disney Plus, which we got for COVID-19. On the other i-Pad. So I just let it say I was not clairvoyant, but merely to do this right. That was already present in the home.   David Mills Well, either way you come across looking as a pretty good mother.   Liesel Mertes Oh, well, thank you so much.   – David Mills Oh, by the way, I hope you don't think that we're going to start without me saying happy birthday. Thank you.   - Liesel Mertes I was going to start commiserating about my birthday.   - David Mills Well, no, I'm not going to. I'm not going to sing because I don't want to like see or they're subscription numbers plummet   - Liesel Mertes But it it does feel nice that you wish me happy birthday. And I didn't press record, but I'll probably cut, you know, this sort of like small talk.   - David Mills But just you know, I think this is about people are coming out more lethal might they might like the idea that I'm cut. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to pivot more.   - Liesel Mertes It is obviously a corona virus birthday. And some people handle that with remarkable, you know, like nonchalance. I am a big birthday person. Like this would be my birthday.   - Liesel Mertes It's also a global economic social crisis. How are things for you?   - David Mills Wow. Yeah. Well, things are OK. Life has just slowed down so suddenly, which I think has been hard for all of us to adjust to, and I think what causes the most anxiety when I can name it is just, you know, I like knowing when the end of things are going to be.   - David Mills I like being able to have a plan.   - David Mills I think we talked about before and this is a crisis that you can plan for and you can plan contingencies for an. Do you still have no idea when it's gonna end? So that's. That's that's been a key source of anxiety for me and I suspect a lot of other people, too. I know. I will say, you know, it's been.   - David Mills It's great. It's great to have the technology that we have. It's great to have Zoom. It's great to have face time. It's great to be able to connect with people and have people checking in on you, and especially as you are on the path to sobriety. But nothing can really replace, you know, the the Face-To-Face connections, at least for me.   - David Mills So it has so you know, but just by the nature of things felt more isolating than usual. And certainly the urge to drink for me, which frankly was for a couple of months pretty low, has been really strong. I think that just left alone in a house with no one else and my own thoughts. It can be a can be a dangerous place for me. So I'm sure we'll talk about some of the things that I tried to do to fight that.   - David Mills But the urge has been real. And I suspect that that's true for a lot of people, whether they're actively in recovery or maybe I've just been trying to drink less this year, drink more in moderation. But this has been a really trying time for them. Yeah. And I, I really feel the weight of that collectively and individually.   - Liesel Mertes And today is my birthday. But it is also a noteworthy day for you. Tell us about your six months.   - David Mills Yeah. So it's a day and sometimes I'm better at tracking this than others. But honestly, like I texted you. You're the first person I told. I was like, oh, yeah. Today's going to be my sixth anniversary. I just looked up on my little app that I have.   - David Mills So it felt really good. I went for a long walk this morning and some nature preserves not too far from the city.   - David Mills And I just had a lot of time to reflect and could feel, though, that the first signs of spring, the melting snow, the muddy boots, you know, the snow falling from the branches and the birds were really loud, which I really appreciated.   - David Mills So it was it was a it was a quiet but meaningful way to celebrate. There have been weeks within the past six months when I have thought about drinking in my heart, I know those are especially dangerous times. But there have also been. A lot of. A lot of shaking hands, a lot of night sweats, a lot of really hard days to stay sober.   - David Mills So I'm really grateful I don't take it for granted. And, you know, I've, I've made it up further than six months before and fallen off. So I don't I. It was a good reminder and reflection for me this morning to be especially vigilant in these times.   - Liesel Mertes So, I imagine for people that some of them some of the support, the in-person support systems of things like AA meetings or community touchpoints that now they don't have access to because of this physical destiny distancing that that is a particular gap. Has that been a part of your journey with sobriety and have you felt that gap? Absolutely.   - David Mills And I will say that at least the Chicago a network has been fantastic about getting Zoom meetings up really quickly like I participated. And a Twelve Steps meeting this morning. I'm going to participate in one tonight. They just e-mail you at the code and you can sign it. It's lovely. And I suspect that that's being replicated in AA chapters all across the country. And if you just go online to your local chapter, you'll get all of that information. But there is.   - David Mills There is something really powerful about being actually in the room, surrounded by people from all walks of life, all races and religions who share this uniquely common struggle and sing, sing the way that they might be carrying on their shoulders and seeing the way that they lift the weight of other shoulders is something that can't fully be replicated in Zoom. So it's not perfect. But I am really thankful that there are these advances in technology which allow us to have even a meetings remotely.   - David Mills It's really it's really incredible and I'm sure there's people out there using Zoom for some really like creepy shit.   - David Mills But it's a good day. It is a good use of that.   - David Mills So that's been really helpful. You know, I have to just also acknowledge that. I have over the last year been really forced to get better at not isolating. When I'm really depressed, I tend to isolate when I'm really manic. I tend to isolate this because I don't slow down and. That's something that I've had to unlearn over the past year, and what I've learned in the process is that I have a really stacked team of a supportive mother, father, stepmother, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins and that's just my blood relatives that's not even accounting for the amazing friends that have reached out to me.   - David Mills And I I I know that everybody's situation is different and not everybody has a whole roster of people that are coming for them and they can come to. But I promise you, there's someone and if there's not you no, I don't know. Reach out to me. Yeah, because the. You'll be grateful not only for not being isolated yourself, but I promise you that the people you love will be able to sleep a lot easier and have a lot less stress in their lives, too.   - Liesel Mertes I'm hearing and you saying that and talking about your support system is that it's been really meaningful. People who have proactively reached out to you in the midst of a time of a lot of social isolation. What does that look like as they've reached out to you?   - David Mills You know, it's a lot of text messages. It's a lot of calling me. And if I don't pick up calling me again, it's which I think speaks to the. To the high caliber of people that I have in my life, it's a lot of. Face timing with family or, you know, right now I don't have Atticus with me. He's with his mother and her parents in Wisconsin, which is great because it's far more isolated. And he.   - David Mills It's a great place for him to be, at least for these couple of weeks. So that's been especially as isolating as well, but yeah, you know, daily face time conversations with Atticus, we're even gonna start doing some workouts together in the morning that him and his mom have been doing and going over some of his lesson plans together. So.   - David Mills I guess we're all like we're all learning to adapt to the responsibilities that we have. Either vocationally or through the bond of love in new ways, and I'm struggling through that just as much as anyone and I don't have it all figured out. But I do know that the less I isolate, the more likely I am to stay level and to stay sober.   - David Mills So I would just maybe also add that, you know, when this quarantine kind of started, I was really entering like a pretty manic phase. So it was it was hard for me to have all of this energy and feel like, as I often do, a manic phase. It's like I can just go, go and go without sleep. I have no place to expend that acceptance like my own apartment, which leads to a really thoroughly cleaned and redecorated and redecorated again apartment.   - David Mills But I can also feel. Like, there's just too much going on inside of me to possibly let out in a single building. You know what I mean? And.   - David Mills Like, you can go on walks, you can go on rides when it's not snowing.   - David Mills Just feeling as trapped as I have in the apartment has certainly been the key part of like feeling like this is one of the hardest stretches to make you well and.   - David Mills You know, so many of us in our different ways are doing our own emotional, psychological recalibration in real time, you know, like hourly of try. What is that?   - Liesel Mertes I imagine that there are powerful aspects of the things you say to yourself or what you do to build resiliency in the four walls of your apartment. What has that? What have you learned about that conversation with yourself?   - David Mills That's a good question. Well, you know, I I should say that. One thing that has also helped this just came to mind is that I'm like it. I realize it would be easy for me just to take a few weeks off of therapy right now, but my therapist and I have. Setup Zoom meetings, so you even just today, like a couple hours ago, I was it was, you know, video chatting with my therapist for an hour, and that's something that really helps because, you know, a gives me.   - David Mills The space to take control over my drinking problem. Therapy is where I can go to get the tools that I need to address the narratives that would tell me that I'm not enough with tell me that.   - David Mills I'm not going to rise up further than I have that I'm destined to. You know, be losing the fight, those narratives are wrong and therapy is the place where I can talk about the underlying trauma that led to them and feeds them and get to the practical tools that I need to develop a more helpful internal dialogue. One that is reflective of where I've come from, one that's reflective of where I want to go and one that's reflective of my own strengths and honesty without being overly critical of my own weaknesses.   - David Mills If that makes sense. So for me.   - David Mills That just speaks these these past two weeks of really just also reinforce in me the need to be in consistent therapy. And. To not just think that a one prong or two-pronged approach is enough. So, yeah, I I that kind of address your question.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, it does. Yeah. I appreciate the. Especially confronting that messages of I am not enough. And just to extrapolate all of it. So so you're in like you're in your space. You're feeling overwhelmed by. Anxiety or fear or desperate, you know, all the things that could flood any of us in that moment. You have an awareness of where those thoughts have taken you in the past. What sorts of things are you saying or doing for yourself in those moments where you feel like I'm on the edge of overwhelm here?   - David Mills Yeah, that's a really good question, and I'm glad you asked that because I actually have an answer for it. Those are my favorite questions.   - David Mills I used to be like a really avid reader. I would just read anything from the time I was a kid all all growing up. But that's, that's really fallen off. So over the past couple of weeks, I've really like especially when my my brain is truly feels unable to slow down. I guess my immediate thought was like, OK, I'm trapped in this place. My brain can't slow down. Can I put it to use to like spark some creative joy inside of myself or to like gain some knowledge of some kind which might benefit me in some way?   - David Mills And really, what that ended up looking like is this reading all the books that I have on hand so far, I think I've read just looking at the stack. Now it looks like I've read re-read The Odyssey, read Little Women Again, classic, beautiful, great. Read a book of Irish love poetry. Don't recommend that if you're single and started in on a book called Founding, Founding Mothers and Fathers, which is about. The gender played a role in forming early American society.   - David Mills Not relevant. Anyways, I've read it. I've read a lot and that's really helped slow my mind down and also provided me a means of escape because like, I can't fully, directly relate to any of the characters in the US. Like, that's it's it's not a world which I inhabit. So. Just like, oh, and the return of Sherlock Holmes is the other one that I read, like, you know, like I don't I don't live in that period of England.   - David Mills That's a it's a means of escape for me. So that's been that's been a really helpful thing. And then also I've just been toiling away in the woodshop. Just kind of building and sanding and staining for a couple hours a night. And I have to watch myself because it's easy to be out there for four or five hours before you know it. It's like 2:00 in the morning.   - David Mills But those things have been really helpful. So I guess, you know.   - David Mills Anything you can do to spark creative joy in yourself or maybe bring a little bit of restoration, whether it's restoration to your mind through the written word or its restoration to know something you're refinishing or something you're building. That can be it can be a really powerful tool, at least for me. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes As you so I I can see the like national data about things like alcohol sales being through the roof right now, which is not inherently bad, but also a sign of how people are funneling these unwieldy feelings of being out of control. What word would you have, particularly for someone who is walking a hard journey of sobriety, or perhaps they're at a point where they're just beginning to take stock and say, I'm drinking quite a lot. What words of insight would you offer?   - David Mills I don't know if they're different for those two groups or general. I. I'm thinking back before I answer. I'm just thinking back. And like some of the things that like I've. Learned through a and through therapy, and that's, you know, I didn't. The drinking was never the problem. There were. Things underneath of it that made me want to drink, I used drinking to medicate when I was manic to slow my thoughts down. I use it as a motivator.   - David Mills When I was depressed to get out of bed. I use that in all circumstances to dull and soften and maybe even a race momentarily, the edges and parts of myself.   - David Mills That felt really unlovable. So I guess what I would say to either of those groups is. Your sobriety. Or your drinking are not the most interesting thing about you. There's so much light and so few. That is not. In any way connected to alcohol. And it can be really easy in these moments when you're trapped. In a place, whether by yourself or with loved ones or with roommates or whoever. To feel a more urgent need to do all the edges of yourself but seem hard to live with.   - David Mills Either just in isolation or in close proximity to others. You don't need to do that. That's, that's what I would say, you just don't you don't need to. There are ways. To live and to the parts of yourself that you don't love yet. That don't involve doling your census. That involve becoming more and not. Suppressing and becoming less or. Feeling like you can only be free and likable under the influence. And I know that's really easy to say and it's taken me a long time to even begin to live.   - David Mills But I promise you, anyone who's hearing this. There are absolutely incredible things about you that other people see that you don't see. So be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with yourself, because there's always gonna be parts of yourself that you personally you don't feel like you can fully with. And there's a lot of ways to address that. Alcohol is one of the ways. There are a lot of other ways, too. There's a lot of things you can do.   - David Mills There's a long there's a long winded answer, I don't know, maybe since it did.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you. That's a good word, David. I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes So. Yeah. Any funny things you've discovered about yourself or your habits in the midst of living in isolation? Sure.   - David Mills I mean, I've I've pretty much known. The type of the type of human I am when it comes to living by myself for a while, but I. Nothing really nothing really, truly funny. But I did have this absolute epiphany. Like nothing I've ever had yesterday as I was doing the dishes, because I have this tendency to absolutely let my sink overflowing before I tackle the dishes. It is the one thing that just like starting it causes me such anxiety.   - David Mills And then I have this epiphany yesterday and I'm like, if I only had two plates out. And I got rid of my other plates or put them away in stores, but they weren't easy to get to. I would.   - David Mills The reason I do this because I have like twelve plates, because every time my mother visits she brings more kitchenware, like not to blame my mom.   - David Mills But thanks mom.   - David Mills That's that that's a I've also discovered that I. It's, it's nice to have a plant to talk to at least. And I wish I would have. I wish I would have heeded advocacies, many requests to get a cat or something. But I think one positive benefit for Atticus is coming out of this could be a pet.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - David Mills It is hard. I will say, you know, not having Atticus there to not have like some living thing depending on me for more than water which is all at once.   - Liesel Mertes Well and I do like just on the human level. I hear that. I know that being a dad and being a good dad, Atticus is a huge part of who you are. And I imagine that that is its own like sacrifice and sadness right now. So sorry.   - David Mills Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. All right.   - David Mills Well, I don't know. I haven't learned anything else really, truly funny about myself. Yeah. Now. I've. I'm kind of sick of myself, actually.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three reflections after my conversation with David:   If you know someone that is living with alcoholism or walking a journey of sobriety, reach out and check in with them.Social support is especially important for David…and sometimes people in his support network have to reach out more than once.  Practice persistence in your care.  David has been directing his energy into creative outlets like woodworking and reading books that take him to other places.How can you funnel your feelings into pursuits that are creative and life giving? Who you are with alcohol is not the most interesting part about you.There is deep wisdom in this reflection. Whether it is alcohol or another coping mechanism to escaps pain, remember that you are more than that behavior and that there are other ways to address the pain.    Thanks again to our sponsors, FullStack PEO, helping entrepreneurs get back to business by providing benefits and support.  And thanks to Motivosity, an employee engagement software system that brings fun and gratitude to your people.    OUTRO

As we’ve seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it’s now become necessary for the spirits industry to adopt technology and delivery services to stay alive. Cory Rellas, the CEO of Drizly, was on the forefront of this years ago. This podcast dives into their business model and how they are helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could mean for Drizly, and if there is an opportunity to extend this business model into cannabis. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits works with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the power of packaging. What is Drizly? How did you come up with this idea? What's the timeline? What was the state of the industry when you got started? What were the challenges? Why did you go through New York early on? What is your big selling point to retail locations? Any pricing restrictions to prevent gouging? Talk about pricing transparency. How are you using the data you are acquiring? Are you sharing the data? Do you have a CRM? How are the products delivered to the consumer? How are you dealing with competition? Are you all interested in getting bought out? What's the end game? What happens if shipping laws change? What is your best selling bourbon? What are the top 5 selling spirit categories? What's your favorite bourbon? How do you work with brands? What needs to change to get more people buy alcohol online? Are you lobbying at all? Is there an opportunity with cannabis? What would the perfect alcohol market look like? What's the latest trend? 0:00 To be the best, you have to learn from the best. Louisville and the surrounding regions are home to many of the most storied companies and innovative startups in the distilled spirits industry. And there's no better place to learn the business of the distilled spirits industry than from a university located in its epicenter. The University of Louisville has partnered with industry experts to offer the distilled spirits business certificate, a six course program designed to accelerate your success in this booming industry. Oh, it's all online. get signed up to make your next career move at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit. 0:36 I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selection has been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head. 0:54 You said it wrong. It goes bourbon bourbon, bourbon, bourbon bourbon 0:58 right brown, brown, brown brown. At 1:01 least that's what we want to hear. 1:03 I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't. 1:21 What's going on everybody? It's Episode 248 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. We just got just a little bit of news to run through. And as you can guess most of it relates to COVID-19. Pennsylvania State run liquor stores are reopening, but only with online and shipped to home orders. Until further notice. Customers can purchase up to six bottles per transaction from a reduced catalog from thousand top selling wines and spirits from the website. All orders must be shipped to home or non store addresses, and only one order per address will be fulfilled per day. This is possibly in reaction to the losses now being seen by the government in an article Hosted by Trib live.com. For the two weeks of not operating, the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board has lost an estimated $91 million in revenue, or around six and a half million dollars per day. quite staggering numbers. And the Virginia ABC has announced that for a limited period of time Virginia distilleries are authorized to ship their spirits to consumers and licensees in Virginia. Now, there's some legal mumbo jumbo about addendums to these distillery store agreements, but it's another big win for consumers and for these distilleries to help everyone get through this period, you can get more information on shipping, including a full list of all 45 Virginia distilleries on the Virginia ABC website. figures released by data analysts IWA ASR have found that for the week ending in March 22 of 2020, that total beverage alcohol sales grew by 40% in value and 33% volume compared to the same period in 2019. And this is to account for the stockpiling that we've seen during COVID-19 Spirits available in one liter one and a half and 1.75 formats have outpaced smaller variants, and the Ws are noted that the larger size formats and value brands tend to benefit from panic buying, as people look to stock their home with as much as possible in the light of a lockdown. According to IWC, or whiskey brands like wild turkey Crown Royal jack daniels bullet and Maker's Mark have been the ones that have seen this most increased purchasing. Alright, now on to something not about the Coronavirus Buffalo Trace distillery continues its exploration into oak tree varietals with the release of its old charter oak Tinker PIN code. This species of oak is native to the Midwest United States. These large Chica Pin Oak trees are often found in parks and larger States after the Chica pin barrels were filled with Buffalo Trace mash number one they were then aged for nine years before being bottled at 93 proof of a suggested retail price is going to be a $70 MSRP and like all other releases in this series, supplies will be limited. And the chicken folk bourbon will be available in limited quantities starting in April. Now today's episode is one that I'm personally really excited about. I'm like a broken record on here preaching how the spirits industry needs a digital revolution. As we've seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it's now become a necessity for this industry to even stay alive. And Cory rellis, the CEO of drizzly, he was on the forefront of this years ago. And this podcast dives into how he even thought of the idea into their business model and how they're how they're actually helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online, and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could actually mean for drizzly. And is there an opportunity to even extend this business model into cannabis. Now if you haven't noticed yet, we are doing lots of impromptu live streams that help give you some more entertainment during this time. We've done virtual happy hours with our patrons Our community, late night blind tastings and more. So make sure that you're subscribed to our YouTube channel to get the notifications and also, consider joining Patreon. We're doing zoom meetings to help connect our community. And we'd love to have you there. Check it out. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. Also, don't forget to catch Fred MiniK on his live streams every single day at one o'clock and nine o'clock pm eastern time. They've been highly entertaining and educational. enjoy today's episode. Stay safe. Stay inside. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 5:36 Hey everyone, Joe here again. We work with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America's most curious cask strength whiskies. lift your spirits with barrel bourbon. 5:50 I'm Fred minich. And this is above the char this past week. I'm just telling you, my brain has been suffering. I've been working so hard on I've been doing two live streams a day on YouTube. I've been writing a lot for Forbes, I've been blogging as much as I possibly can. And I hit a wall I hit a wall where I had no ideas left me none in the tank. And I want to thank every single one of you who responded to my query on Twitter, where I simply asked Can you please give me some ideas for above the char? I got so many great ones. I'm going to start with this one from the whiskey stop. It's at the whiskey stop on Twitter. And he wants me to talk about the power of packaging. A unique shape of the bottle. Does it have a twist top a synthetic cork, maybe natural cork a great or unusual label? Did it influence your purchase was a good did it suck? Did the packaging work? its magic on you. What a brilliant question and what a time Hundred like truth is that packaging matters. Oh my God does packaging matter. And let me tell you if you overthink packaging, you will fail and that is where you fail. Most of all when it comes to packaging, what I have noticed is is that many people try to target women and they do it with like a like a fluffy pink or they've got some kind of like special dressing on there and they have like rainbow colors, and women rejected every single time. Another one is when someone tries to be overly fancy, they get like a crystal, a major crystal top, a really fancy label, and then they fill it with like two year old MGP whiskey 7:49 adds a big fail. 7:51 So the packaging always has to match what's inside the bottle and the packaging cannot overstate Something so the overselling is the case of a brand that went too far with trying to attract women. And the whiskey not matching would be the decanter or the bottle that had shit whiskey in it. And the bottle was just stunning. And I've always believed that to me, you can measure a bottle by what is fascinating it or the closure. I am such a fan of natural cork you can read my cover story and bourbon plus magazine to get an idea of like, what goes into making court but I am really connected to the earth and I love I love the sustainability aspect of cork. And when I hear that pop when I pull the bottle next to my ears and I go that is an undeniable sound that makes my mouth water and makes me want a sip. A screw top doesn't do that. Lot of the synthetic corks are like stuck in there like they don't make that same sound. And the glass tops that are starting to become more popular. I could never get those things off. I have to pry them off with the damn, you know, butter knife. To me it all starts with with a good cork on the top. Now people can argue all day long of the merits of cork, but I'm just here to tell you I know what I like. And I like hearing this sound every time I open a bottle. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, listen, I'm bound to continue to run out of ideas with this Coronavirus stuff going on. Because I'm not stopping. I am driving content every single day. So hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or YouTube and give me some ideas for above the char I'll select my favorite and read it in the next episode. Next week, cheers. 10:05 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny Ryan and Fred in our virtual hangout space. And today we are talking about a topic that we know far or should say, we know all too well, you know, when we talked about this on the roundtables, we talked about it, you know, with distributors, we talked about what is the future consumption and delivery of alcohol really going to look like for the the mass market and we look at, you know, coming from a tech industry myself, we try to figure out, like, how can we get, you know, our product into the hands of consumers faster than anyone else. And what we're gonna be talking about today is really talking to a company that's on the forefront of all this. And when we look at this, it's not only just being able to get in the hands of consumers, but you can get it in less than an hour sometimes. So I think it's gonna be a really cool conversation of how we really dive into this. So Fred, and Ryan I mean, you know, we've we've talked about shipping before, but have you all have y'all ever had a service delivered bottles to you yet? 11:08 No, not yet. But I'm super excited to learn about it. I'm fortunate I live like a half mile from a liquor store so we can get it pretty easy. But yeah, I mean, the liquor industry moves at a snail's pace. So you know, there's a lot of friction points and getting bottles delivered to your house and I've had plenty of bottles delivered to my house just not legally. But I would like to make it legal so yeah, I'm really excited to talk to them about this today. 11:36 Yeah, I've had I've had quite a bit sent to me I also you know, being being a personality on the spirits network, they regularly send me stuff and they you know, that's part of their, their whole thing is that you join and you get to be become a Club member, and they ship barrel pics and stuff to you. 11:56 And so let's go ahead introduce our guests today. So today, we Have Cory rellis Cory is the CEO of drizzly, you might have seen him or the app, you've seen probably their logo and a lot of liquor stores are the ones that deliver bottles from liquor stores to your doorstep. So Cory, welcome to the show. 12:15 Thanks for having me, guys. 12:16 So was that a decent elevator pitch? Or do you have a better one? That's usually us. 12:21 It's a common misconception. So I would actually like to give you my elevator pitch. 12:25 Please do please do. Yes. 12:27 Yeah. So So actually, drizzly was formed a lot with a lot of knowledge around the regulations that you guys have been discussing. I know we're going to talk about that further. So I'll put that in the back for a minute now, but the model is actually different than people think we don't do delivery. And really what drizzly prides itself on is digitizing the inventory of local liquor stores, so that a consumer can come online, shop across their stores and find a larger selection, comparison pricing and ultimately get that delivered to them. But the delivery is done by either the retailer themselves or Third parties, that door dashes Postmates shifts to the world. And so we're really a tech middleman empowering the three tiers, but not necessarily changing the status quo. 13:10 Cool. So it's kind of like a an Open Table kind of concept for liquor stores, maybe you're kind of looking at what's available and can then kind of pick and choose that way. 13:20 Yeah, that's not a bad comparison. And Ryan, you were saying you live next to a liquor store. And I think that's really drizzly, his opportunity is not necessarily to replace the liquor store, but to provide an experience you couldn't get by going to any one liquor store. And that goes again, back to selection, to transparency of pricing to the surface and multiple stores being able to get to you when and where you want it. 13:40 And so I kind of want to roll back the hands of time here and kind of learn more about you so kind of talk us through, you know, where did Where did spirits become or is this just like an idea you had and you said, like, Hey, this is fun. Like, this is a this is an opportunity that's, that's basically ripe for disruption. Like, what What got to the point of like you getting here and saying like, okay, cool, like this is gonna be a good venture to kind of go through. 14:07 Yeah, it's a it's a less sexy story than you might imagine. And it started with regulation. So going all the way back to my cousin Nick, Nick rellis, and then co founder, Justin Robinson. And it was born out of trying to figure out why alcohol was only 2% online, or even one and a half percent online. When you saw grocery, when you saw a restaurant, we saw electronics and clothing, all these other verticals are coming online at a rapid rate. And we started to think about why that is with alcohol. And regulation became the clear component of this whole piece. And so we started digging into the legal code. I mean, truthfully, looking not only at the repeal and the prohibition, but also state by state liquor codes and trying to understand how does this model need to work for alcohol? How can a tech platform both empower the industry but not be a part of the industry and still be an unlicensed entity within it? And then the third piece is, how do you carve your moat? How do you be more than deliberate because you know, when we start projecting the 10 years down the road, that's a commodity at the end of the day and so we need to be better than going to the liquor store and elevate the status or I'm sorry, elevate the physical liquor stores to do something that couldn't do in the physical world. 15:11 Alright, so I don't know if he really answered my question there because I really want to figure out more about you right like Matt 15:17 Boyd. All of those Kenny. 15:19 Bad we want to get to know a little about you, right? I mean, like, like, we're like so where'd you go to school? Like Where'd it Where'd this really kind of like, really spawn from? 15:27 sure my road was a little bit sideways. I grew up in Texas. And I would say that I'm a big bourbon fan for that reason grew up loving bourbon actually, but was a soccer player at Notre Dame spent five years there had a fifth year for soccer and wanted to play professionally after school. But a couple ACLs later, had to give up that dream and ultimately had done an internship after my first injury, kind of preparing just in case it didn't work out in the long run, and took a job out here in Boston at Bain Capital. They're credited affiliates, sanctity advisors. And that's when I started to get to know businesses a little bit better. I started to get to know regulated industries incredibly well, I was dealing with coal and steel and some pretty, pretty old industries at the end of the day. And then the three of us that I was mentioning, started just kicking around ideas. And so this was a big jump for me, I was in, you know, kind of the standard finance track at that point, thinking about what the next couple of years looked like, whether it be business school, or continuing doing what I was doing. And it felt like the right time to jump it felt like the right collection of folks to try something new with and a little bit of naivete got us to the final to the finish line and push us over the edge 16:40 to like your own little incubator, if you will. 16:43 We had a bunch of ideas. They were all terrible. So 16:47 we struck out on a few. This one became, I mean, really, the passion of the other two guys is what got me to believe and then the more we dug in, the more we really peel back the onion, the more we knew something was here, not just as a small thing. company but something that could really turn into something as a larger platform. 17:03 Give us a timeline behind this what was you know, when when did the light bulb light bulb go off? 17:10 Yeah, so 2012 the light bulb was starting to go off with the text of why can't you get alcohol delivered? And the response was you can you idiot. And so that started down the rabbit hole of when you get called out to some extent, what do you have to do? You have to take the next step and figure it out. And so that's when we started researching the liquor code. And it's funny how things work in Boston being a good microcosm of this project. One question you get and put in touch with the next guy who you can then ask the next question to and it starts to unfold unto itself. And it's not necessarily we saw some grand vision of what alcohol e commerce would look like and what drizzly has now become, but the next step was always apparent if you're willing to take the time. So 2012 was the idea. 2013 was the very first iteration and we've evolved since then. But bringing one liquor store online. Learning about consumers and what they're looking for what e commerce was. And then in the last three years, our models really accelerated. 18:07 So walk us through like the state of the industry, then when you guys are getting like what it were liquor stores doing as far as inventory or trying to do online sales, what was kind of the State of the Union when you guys got it started? 18:19 I wouldn't say it's too different now. We're moving it forward, but begrudgingly, I'd say for some of them. So what was fascinating about the current landscape delivery did happen, but it didn't happen in the paradigm in which we have now moved it towards which you could call liquor store. You didn't necessarily know it was on their shelves, but you could say, you know, I'm having 10 people over for a party, I'd like to place a $500 order split between a couple things, can you make some recommendations, so there wasn't transparency into what you could buy nor the price behind it. And you had to have big orders at the store is going to take the time, but delivery did happen to some extent. On the other side. Ecommerce within this space was just like not even on the radar for regulators or legislators. So you're talking about prohibition being repealed, that is still a lot of the framework and the intent behind the laws that are written. And so there was nothing to comment on e commerce at that point. And one of the first things we did I mean, this is the time of Uber, right? The cars are moving around you at the touch of a button, the world's changing because you have a phone in your pocket. And we're sitting here thinking, Okay, well, how does it need to look for alcohol? And unlike Uber, we couldn't just get into a city try to stoke up consumer demand, and then ask the regulations to be changed. That's just not the way this industry works. We had to go the other way. And so one of the first things we did was go to New York State, the Liquor Authority, they're the SLS. And we asked for a declaratory ruling relative to our model to basically say, not only we elite, not only are we legal, but we're three tier compliant, and we're doing things so aboveboard, that the SLA is willing to bless our model going forward and so that was actually the first moment where became not just a hobby, but very real and something that we thought we could then Take a run with. 20:01 So you you kind of said, All right, we need to sit down, look at the laws and figure out how we can sort of navigate these choppy waters. I would imagine when we've we've talked about all the time, anytime you try to put any kind of disruption into this marketplace that there is you're going to be hit hard with a lot of people that are lobbying against you. What were some of those like early conversations, you remember having people that are like this will never work like you're not going to get it to fly. 20:29 I have a hard time remembering ones that weren't like that, to be honest. So I can speak to the other side easier. Most of it was doubt that this is a very slow industry to change. And you have pretty significant entities that control pieces of the supply chain, and if they're not on board, you're not going to have success on a macro scale and other slices of it. That can work. You could do direct to consumer wine, you could do shipping, there's different pieces of it. But on a macro scale of trying to bring the physical footprint of alcohol online. We needed a few things to go right one was New York. And Funny enough, the the woman, Jackie flute, who blessed our model, as the general counsel for the New York State Liquor Authority is now on our team. And she was kind of the veteran in the space when she put her stamp of approval that meant a lot to the industry. The second one was the wholesalers, the wine and spirits, wholesalers of America and powerful group of people and in terms of their lobbying prowess in their space within the industry, and we got them on board as a three tier compliant model that can move forward the consumer experience in a way that they could get behind. So that was that was a big piece of it as well. 21:33 So you talked about being going above and beyond what the authorities there were, what were some of those things that kind of helps sell New Yorker where they were like gave you that that blessing? 21:44 Well, I think transparency is the first thing and not only transparency, communication, but transparency of the supply chain and what consumers purchasing what bottles from what retailer and if you can track all of that which obviously tech can do and can really enable that process. That is a leg up for many Anything that's happening in delivery today, connect. The second one was, we came with an offering for ID verification through delivery. That was again, not only transparent, but did it in such a way that they could have confidence that under age was not going to be a problem within this business model. And then I think the third part was just being very descriptive on how the flow of funds work. And then also what drizzly is and what just isn't, I think there's a line that needs to get drawn as to what is a retailer's job and competencies. And when you encroach on those too far, you start to erode the license that they have worked hard and in need to live up to, relative to what a software platform is doing on the other side. So it was more just a lot of learning and explaining who we are and how we do it. 22:45 So I know that the liquor laws are they're different everywhere. I mean, every state is different. You've got to navigate that everywhere you're trying to launch. And so when I think of New York, one of the things that I know of at least in New York, and who knows if at least There's plenty of stores that actually have websites in New York. And they can deliver within New York as well, like they can run through UPS, FedEx or whatever it is. So what was the idea of going through something like New York first, that might already have some sort of system set up like this versus something like Texas, right, which is a huge market, but has a lot more regulation versus something like DC, which is really like the Wild West? 23:26 Yeah, there's a few things to pick apart there. So we actually got off the ground in terms of our model in Boston. And then we went to New York to get the model blessed one because of their size and then to the regulatory credibility when they put their stamp on something. But what was unique about Massachusetts in one of those fortuitous things that happens. It is a an incredibly regulatory driven market for alcohol. So if you're compliant here, you've almost kind of fit the lowest common denominator for the rest of the states. And you can roll it out from there. So I think that was a big fortuitous bounce in our direction at the beginning. The second thing We learned from a consumer side of things, every state is so different, and how consumers buy alcohol. Because of the regulations in New York, as you're mentioning, you have a wine and spirits store and a beer store, you have a license cap so that you don't have chains. But you have a ton of independence, which is obviously very different than Texas or California, where you have a bevmo or some of these larger chains out there. So the consumer experience really needed to adapt on where you are, and who you're going to be working with on the retail side, the East Coast was set up pretty pretty darn effectively for us because we could work with independence, learn how to bring on a smaller shop make a real difference in their business. And then as we rolled out to larger cities and states, we were more ready. We were more ready to have conversations with some of the bigger retailers. 24:45 Yeah, I think that's one of the things that we should most most people that are in the retail market should really start looking at is how do you become a little bit more competitive in today's market and just being on the corner and relying on your neighbors to kind of keep you in business might not be able to thing that's gonna keep you floating for much longer. So when you go and you have these conversations, or at least in the very beginning, I'm sure you have a whole team that have these conversations now with liquor stores around the country, what's your what's your big selling point to them to say like, hey, like we can bring your inventory online? Do you integrate with like their existing POS? Or does it say like, Hey, you need to have a new POS system that that we we run and manage, like, how does all that work? 25:28 There's a lot to it. But you appeal to them first as a consumer, and you start to think about other industries and how they've come online. And where do you buy airline tickets? Where do you buy hotels? How do you buy or how do you shop? for clothes online aggregator model and starting to get them thinking about this is going to happen in the space. It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when and so you appeal to them on a consumer level to start. The next thing you're really dealing with is fear. You're dealing with fear of competition, you're dealing with fear of transparency of pricing, and that's how far back this industry goes. As you know, they still believe That people can't get their prices if they wanted to walk in, it gets a little irrational. But then you can speak to them around numbers now. And this is obviously changed over seven years. But you can talk to him about incremental consumers that they wouldn't have been able to serve otherwise. And we have data behind that. You can talk to him about how a marketplace actually elevates to the experience to the point where multiple stores are able to succeed at a level that if you were the only one doing delivery in this area, we wouldn't be able to get those consumers to not only come and check out the site, but also come back and shop from you in the future. And then the last thing is, is we need to be more than just the consumer marketplace. And so when you're talking about point of sale systems, we need to be to elevate and help them generate more profit from their in store business, that things there's things like the catalog and the accuracy of what's on their shelves and how they actually think about that there's data on consumer trends and what they want to put on their shelves at what price at what time. So there's a lot of things as a tech company that we have access to the can really elevate their entire business and it's a whole package that when you work with drizzly makes you a better retailer. 27:01 So you brought up up pricing. One thing that we've noticed a trend in liquor retailers is there's a lot of price gouging. Do you have any restrictions or anything like that with the retailers you work with that you set them within like a 27:18 close to the MSRP or anything like that? 27:21 And it's a good question. So in some states, the price in store is legally mandated to be the price online. And I could give it's a couple states, it's not the majority by any means. So that one takes care of itself. But our job is really to bring their in store experience online and the way they want to do it. Our approach to price gouging is not necessarily to give them mandates on what to price it or to keep it in certain things is to insert competition. It's to have a marketplace to keep them honest to the point where if you are going to try to price things 40 50% up because they're rare and Other people that have that same item, they're obviously not going to purchase yours. And so it really just gets back to an efficient marketplace idea and making sure that consumers are the arbiter of what's successful and not regulations or drizzly or someone else. 28:14 And so to kind of like tackle or shall I say, like, tack onto that one a little bit. When we think about pricing, we've actually had KL we've had a spirits on the show, because we kind of talked about like, what does it look like to be in an online first kind of market? Right? Like, like, that's gonna be the new consumer drive. That's the new demand. If If Amazon's next whatever's coming next, if it's drizzly next, whatever, it's going to be like that online marketplaces really where people are going to go for. And so the other thing about the pricing aspect is this is like when you put your prices online, you're creating this level transparency, because you know exactly like what somebody's charging for a 750 ml in early times versus what somebody else is charging. Does that ever like Upset any retailers? And they're like, Wait a second, like, how are they able to charge less than I can like, what's their? What's their distributor? charging them versus what they're charging me? Do you get caught any of those kind of situations? 29:12 There's definitely yes, I mean, transparency introduces more knowledge into the marketplace for sure. Are we introduced to that conversation? Not necessarily. But I'll tell you one of the biggest learnings from early days it drizzly from switching from a single store experience. I am shopping from the store across the street, who I've been brought online through drizzly to a marketplace where I'm shopping by brand first and then drizzle is telling you the best way to access that product, whether it be selection, you can only get it at one place, price delivery, all those different things. And so what's come out of that though, one store may price something as a margin builder. Another one actually may price price it as a loss leader, and the various strategies within those retailers really come to fruition when you break down those physical barriers and put all of those things on one page together, so it's not necessarily that, hey, I'm getting a worse deal from my distributor. But it starts to highlight what someone does in store online in a much, much more transparent way. And you compete a little differently online. And so it started to me an education of this is how I went in store helped me win online. And there's usually an avenue to do that. That's the bigger conversation more so than I'm getting gouged by my distributor. 30:24 Yeah, that was 30:25 actually going to be my question how, as a liquor store, do you compete online, it kind of reminds me of the car business, you know, like the car industry used to have to rely on a salesman and try to whittle them down and beat them down to get the you know, the most fair price but now everybody knows the price What can a store do to compete? You know, if if you guys are and what parameters are you kind of determining that makes a store better or worse for someone? 30:50 Sure. And it's one of those things when you when you come on a jersey you're going to see a bunch of information and that's really where where I think we can win in the long run. Is asymmetric access to information and that includes price. That includes delivery times, that includes your selection, whether it be longtail wines, or high end and rare Bourbons. And so highlighting that is a big piece of it. And then you start to think about other people that are starting to focus in this industry. I mean, grocery, for example, is starting to come online for alcohol in a bigger way, total wine is being very aggressive. They are feeling independence or feeling that distinctly in the cities that we're seeing that, but there are advantages to being an independent liquor store location, for example, you have access to consumers within 2030 or 40 minutes that a total one could never get to in that timeframe. Not necessarily selling private label. Private Label online is a little bit more difficult. And so what of your selection, do you want to highlight? What are your higher margin products? And how do we highlight those to the consumers you're willing to speak to, and then also providing them tools. Again, going back to this data conversation, there's not a whole lot informing what they put on their shelves except for that stuff. salesmen walking in drizzly can bring transparency to that as well. What are consumers in this area buying? What are the trends? How should you think about pricing it? And how do you build that into an overall larger strategy to have a successful business and in a rapidly changing environment, which we're seeing, depending on which city different rates, but it's happening. 32:17 So you brought up data, you bring in a datum, and we are in the age of big data where we are dominated by it. Tell talk, walk us through, like how you use that data? Do you sell it to the to the suppliers? Do you feed it into like a market research hub? How are you using the data you're acquiring at point of sale? 32:40 Almost all of the data we acquire, we are using to inform our own offering. And so it's simply commerce things like how do we construct a better flow to increase conversion your likelihood to hit checkout? How do we start moving shelves around in what is effectively a digital liquor store to be more personalized to you So that the next time you come back in, we're more apt to show you the right product at the right time at the right price. That's really what we use the data for. Going back to retailers and brands, we can aggregate it and anonymize it and give them larger trends that could be cut down by geography, but never anything that's highlighting a particular store or a particular consumer more. So just highlighting a different slice of the market. And one of the interesting things about the alcohol industry is you have your Nielsen's and your IR eyes and some of the bigger data providers who have a interesting offering within the alcohol space. But they're big gaps, the independent liquor store market where you don't have receipt data, or you don't have consistency of point of sale systems. Those are not places so New York has an entire market. Those are not places that people have great insight to and drizzly through its 350 retailers that we partner with in New York City can start to really build transparency into a market that is otherwise been only aggregated into depletion data. So Other things. So there's an aggregated view for the external partners. For us internally, it's how do we create a better ecommerce experience? 34:06 Because that thread can be 34:07 actually, you know, it's fascinating. 34:09 There's a lot to take in, right. 34:11 I used to cover retail, I used to be the tech writer for the National Retail Federation's magazine stores, and I felt myself going back to the old days. Listen to you talk there. And follow up on that data is that, you know, we don't really a lot of the a lot of the numbers that are that are out there that are public. They kind of like you're saying, like the Nielsen numbers. They're not really complete. So my question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public? Since you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there? 34:54 There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now, more than ever before. So how do you find The best stories and the best flavors will rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rack houses box ship out every two months to 39 states across the US and rack houses April box, they're featuring a distillery that makes us Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how rack house whiskey club is shipping out to whiskies from two bar spirits located near downtown Seattle, including their straight bourbon, go to rack house whiskey club calm to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 35:42 My question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public and you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there. 35:53 You're hitting on a great thing. And we actually do believe in the democratization of our data just because we think it's going to make all of us Better, including the consumer experience. So we released something a long time ago called the data distillery. We are thinking about how to do this in a larger way, not only for trend data, but again, how do we create something that becomes a backbone for the industry so that we are sharing data? Not because I think some people think you by holding on to it, you're more valuable. Our view is by using it to make the industry more effective, the consumers will win, which is ultimately what we're all about. One, one quick anecdote. I mean, we see trends earlier, our average consumer is millennial, older millennial 30 to 34 years old, 5050, male, female, and these are folks who are trendsetters. These are social people. And so, Rosie a couple of years ago, I mean, seltzer took off about eight months online before it did on, you know, in the physical world. So it's just one of those things where we can really inform based on the trendsetters that purchase on our platform brands and how they should be thinking about the world and then a larger play as to what you're saying Fred around, using data to benefit the industry. 36:59 Fred, you Actually, you know, and you kind of cover my question, but I guess as a liquor store owner, do I have, you know, do I have the same access to that data? Is every single store within your system? Or is it store specific or regional specific? And like, from a CR is do you have a CRM base as well with drizzly for the retailer? 37:20 We do we do. So if you're a drizzly retailer, we have a tool that's actually just culturally retailer and that gives you access to all of your sales data, all of the customers that are purchasing from you. And then also an aggregated view on some of these consumer trends and thoughts around the inventory, you should be stocking. So that is absolutely part of being a partner with drizzly and a CRM side. We're obviously aggregating eyeballs on our site. We're aggregating consumers and want to speak to them in an intelligent way. A piece of what we're doing in 2020 is starting to take our technology and utilizing that to allow retailers to do this themselves. So you can imagine white labeled websites that Allow them to merchandise their own products more effectively and almost have control of their own website by utilizing drizzly assets. And you can start to see where that would go in terms of CRM capability, the ability to talk to their consumers in a more discreet way versus the aggregator marketplace that is drizzly. So there's a lot within that, but yes, I can see us more and more powering some of their ecommerce needs, not only to benefit us, but I think it's a necessity for the market to benefit consumers. 38:26 I also think it's a necessity to because of course it for me, it always comes back to tech. And, you know, you go and you look at some websites, and I mean, some of them are just they're just archaic, right? You know, a lot of liquor stores, these mom and pop shops that try to build a website, there's a flash banner on it, you know, whatever it is. And, you know, that's why, you know, at least not in this particular segment, but this is why a lot of people that are creating their own businesses, they look at things like Shopify because it makes their you know their system a lot easier. I mean, or is that like one of the big selling points that you have for just lead a lot of these retailers is like, let's Let's take you at least to the 2020. Now, 39:03 yeah, that's a great point. So it wasn't when we started, to be honest, we thought more about how to aggregate consumer demand in our marketplace. And so that's a little bit different. That's almost like the Amazon side of things of will collect the eyeballs, we'll build the technology. And we're going to utilize your physical shelf space. On the other side, the selling point there is just incremental consumers incremental profit, so that that works. On the other side, there's so much we can do to look like Shopify to be a platform, which is an entirely different business model, but one that we really think we can enable the hundred thousand independent retailers out there to serve customers, and I keep saying customers because despite everything else that goes on within our business, we talk a lot about internally, the reason for our existence, our purpose behind everything is to to be there for the moments that matter and the people who create them and yes, we sell alcohol and help people transact online. But we're there to actually provide a better consumer experience and allow them the time and the freedom and To find that right bottle at the right price, I mean, we all know how cool that can be. So, it all comes back to democratizing what we do to the benefit of the end consumer. 40:10 Well, first off, hats off for trying to make change, positive change in this world. That's always outdated. That's we know, it's we know, it's insanely difficult to actually do. But I think there's one aspect that you know, we kind of want to touch on as well because it is a it is a part of the drizzly system and no, it's not just you know, basically creating the catalog for for what the consumer sees, but there there is a component of actually how it is delivered to the end consumer. So kind of touched on a little bit about you know, you said the post mates the, that sort of model of like, how does it once once a transaction happens online, at what point is drizzly done with it, and it's either on the retailer, it's on whomever, to get that into the hands of the consumer. 40:57 So when someone hits check out What we have done is send that order through a gateway to the merchant of record, which is the retailer itself. So just one data point there. If you're shopping from ABC liquors, that is the merchant of record on your credit card drizzly is not within that flow of funds at any point. What we do do on the other side is build the technology so that if the retailer wants to do the delivery, they have the ability to do that it almost is like the Uber driver app to some extent for this space. And that's about 92% of our orders. So most of this is retailer delivery using our technology, and we are providing the customer support throughout the entire experience until the bottle has received at its location. The third parties are interesting just because delivery is such a inexpensive piece of this whole thing and they've added scale and efficiency in a way that you almost need multiple categories, multiple verticals to do and you can imagine a mom and pop getting frustrated on a seven 7pm Friday. Too many orders coming from drizzly too many people internally It would be nice to be able to have a courier of some sort. So that's what we built in. They're all tech based, we have full visibility into when it reaches the consumers hands inclusive of ID verification. So we're always a part of it. And at the same time, we're not the ones physically handing the bottle off. 42:16 So you're like a almost like a marketplace, right? As for getting those together? I mean, is I mean, is it really like you're popping out? And it's like saying, like, okay, like Uber Eats, post mates doordash, like, whoever is going to answer this, like, come and pick this thing up. 42:29 We don't put it out to bid per se but we do work with most of the partners you just said. But that was also an idea to be honest. And there's people who have created that, we found that having one option per store is a little bit better just because you get used to who they are and do things in a in a bit simpler way. 42:44 And so I guess a another question that I kind of want to actually go ahead and because it's I'm sure it's a the business side of this. So go ahead and answer it is 42:51 actually a business side. So you talked about how you kind of laid the framework for this whole really, for what is an is an new category that's kind of changing the space and now you got competition. You got all kinds of people coming on board, minibar and a few others. So how do you? How do you how do you deal with that? How do you, you you have to compete with him at individual retailers? Do you guys share retailers? How does that work with your competition? 43:21 Well, Fred, I mean, going back to 2013 when we Magneto got back in the stone age's. Exactly. I felt like I got some grit. Now, that was pretty good. In 2013, when we kind of announced the model, there were about 50 meters out there, minibar absolutely being one of them and have a lot of respect for what they've done. That phase isn't necessarily over at any time, but the big boys are now here. And so we're actually thinking about competition, not necessarily for just alcohol specific, but the logistics firms. I mean, Uber Eats has tried to do alcohol delivery. 10 different times instacart has prioritized alcohol and e commerce. Why Walmart and grocers are starting to think about how to do this in a bigger way, total wine. So you can imagine that there's, we almost need to find a way to succeed. And this is what we talked about a lot internally. In 567 years, every bottle on every shelf could be transacted online and sent to a consumer, whether it be delivery pickup or shipping. And in that world, how does your business model succeed? And that's really where it just has been built for. Not necessarily the me twos today that are, you know, predominantly just about delivery and convenience, within that 44:32 value proposition. At what point do you stop, you know, you're talking about some pretty big names and they're trying to get in the space? what point do you stop competing and just start? You can't beat them join them in that regard, is that the end goal? Seems like with most tech companies, they want to get absorbed or bought out, you know, at some point have an exit strategy. 44:51 Yeah, I mean, there's always there's always thoughts on the next strategy, but to be honest, we're being built for the long haul and alcohol is a bit a bit you I mean, there is a moat, from regulation that comes from embracing them, rather than trying to knock down these laws. Now, if tomorrow, the Three cheers went away, and it looked a lot more like selling electronics online, I might have a different tune as to about where we fit in the long run. But I do think we can stick out a place here for the long term. And a lot of that comes back to kind of this underpinning of how do you take regulation and code that into your technology? And then also, how do you take a mom and pop an entirely fragmented retail base, and then aggregate that in such a way using your catalog, your tech that we know where every bottle is in the country, its price and how to get it to a consumer, what you build on top of that within your product experience? Just kind of opens up the world to you and I just think that's something entirely differentiated and difficult to replicate. All that being said, not looking to sell by any means today, but it's obviously something you sit up a little straighter when Amazon gets into your space. 45:58 Yeah, I would imagine so. Yeah, I mean, I think I think Amazon might have been one of the big names that, you know, people are gonna recognize and you know, they're they're definitely trying to get into the space as well. And so, you know, another question that that kind of follows along with that is the when we start looking at, you know, Amazon, you start looking at instacart, and all these different kinds of companies that are trying to get into it. And if you kind of said something like, if the three tier system is goes down tomorrow, like what what would that really mean for you all? And if basically, this gets democratized to the point that it is just like, buying and you know, buying an electronic off Amazon like, What? What is that? Is that truly like gaming or a game over? I mean, are you really reliant on the three tier system to to make this happen? 46:47 At this point? No, but I think two things become obvious. Right now brands are about as far away that you can be from a consumer when you're a big CPG right. So they are unbelievable storytellers and brand builders from The awareness message side of things. But it's not like Procter and Gamble and Walmart, where you have co located offices and you're trying to figure out where to put things on shelves and incentive basis. And you know, you're buying shelf space and tap space and the rest. That doesn't happen well, at least not legally, at least today. And if that goes away, then the way brands work with retailers changes overnight. And drizzly has a value proposition there, but it does need to shift pretty significantly. The other side of the coin though, is we almost need to plan for the three tiers to go away because drizzly successful, when the product experience, the consumer experience is so good that they no longer need to go to the store. And that goes back to not just the selection and the availability and the transparency of price, but then packaging it in such a way that again, almost guided shopping or personalization to where you almost feel like you're missing out if you're not going to Jersey because you've learned so much about your product. There's a crazy stat we just learned that you know 40 45% of our consumers Unless you're using Drupal as a discovery tool, and not necessarily transacting on the platform, I think that's fascinating. I think that's something that we can really lean into to drive value for the consumers at the end of the day. And again, I think that's one of those unique things that regulation be damned, we can do better than anyone else. 48:16 And how does your game change if shipping laws are broken down? Now, let's say the three tier system still there, and it's great. However, now that you know, New York and shipped to California, Wisconsin, you can go to Florida, and liquor stores can now compete, you know, across state lines, like what is that? What does that do for your business? 48:37 I think it'd be a little bit of the Wild West to start, I think you're going to start to see the macro or the larger chains, assert price dominance because they can then start to think of their business on a national scale versus distributor, distributor and state by state. I think we could really take advantage of that world to be honest again, I keep beating on the same point but if we know what's in 40,000 stores We should be able to surface all of the items at the best price possible for you almost kind of this notion of tell us what you want, we'll figure out the best way for you to get it. And I think that's one in which we would really succeed. Shipping is not a huge piece of our business today. But that speaks to the use case, we're going after more so than the consumer demand inherent within shipping. So I think we could really take advantage of it. It would, it would require a little bit of adaptation and how we do things. 49:24 All right, I want to jump back into some data stuff. This is I think this is some fun. This will be fun for you. What is your best selling bourbon based on your data? 49:36 It's a little different than you might think. It's a brand that we've done a lot of work with, to try to figure out how it resonates with the millennial consumer but bullet bourbon was our largest brand in 2019. 49:48 Bigger than it's a 49:49 popular brand, 49:50 but it's you know, it's not it's not necessarily makers, or Jim are some of these other ones. So yeah, 49:55 still a top 10 bourbon from a sales perspective. Now what are The top five selling spirits so like from a categorical perspective 50:06 category spirits are the spirit themselves. 50:09 The so the know the category spirits so like tequila ROM bourbon like what what's your top five there? 50:16 I might get this wrong but we'll see here I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selections been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head. 50:37 You said it wrong. It's goes bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, 50:41 right. brown brown, brown brown. 50:44 At least that's what we want to hear. 50:45 Well, I didn't I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't 50:53 bleep me out but it's funny I've I've sworn on this and I didn't hear any negative reaction. Now I say anything other than bourbon. And there we go. 51:00 Yeah you get around Fred that's that's the type of banter you're gonna get out of it and so you know as we kind of want to like ask a question because we really didn't ask it in the very top of this because you said you were a bourbon fan like what's what's what's kind of like your go to you got some favorites cuz I see behind you you got a Coors Light came behind there I figured figured we could I mean you're in the you're in the spirits business like let's let's get some bourbon on those shelves back there. 51:25 Oh don't worry we do have that this is just one of the rooms 51:29 well so I like to play nice because we work with a bunch of different brands in their businesses. I'm a big Booker's fan I love 100 proof Booker's over a glass device when I go home. I'd say that's more of a Friday night drink than anything else. But that's probably my go to if I'm if I'm opening something on the regular. 51:47 What do you mean by by working with brands? Like what is what does that mean to you? Well, 51:52 I think there's two things. The first would be on the data side. So these are folks who are looking to learn about consumer trends, figure out how their business brands are resonating with consumers. And it's less even about the online spend. It's taking those learnings and apply it to the offline. And again, massive media budgets and trying to make them even 1% more efficient by learning about the online consumer in depth. That's a big piece of it. The second piece is, shirtsleeves, the fastest growing company in the fastest growing channel for alcohol. So to that extent, they are trying to figure out how they're going to win online. Knowing that in five years 10 12% of all alcohol is going to be sold online. So drizzly can be almost a test and learn area for them. You can speak to consumers in a personalized way. You could sell advertising, we haven't done much of that to date. But all of these things are basically a lab for them to figure out how their brands can come online, and either keep or grow their market share versus the physical world. 52:49 So what was that you say? 10 to 12% is what it's going to be in the future. 52:53 Yeah, if you look at some of the larger data providers, they're projecting 13 $14 billion in 2023. Slightly less ambitious than that. But you're seeing this industry come online at 40 50% year over year, which is significant, we do think it's gonna be the fastest growing CPG over the next three to five years. 53:11 So what what do you all need to do to try to position yourselves to say like, we can grow this beyond 10 to 12%? Like how, how do we change the minds of the consumer to say, like, Oh, we can we can get this to 20 to 25%? Like, what do you think has to change in the culture to try and get people to start buying more online? 53:32 I think you're actually hitting at it pretty good there, which is awareness. Not many people know that you're allowed to buy alcohol online. And even if you do, there hasn't been a way to do so that should take away from going to the local liquor store. I mean, that's, that's a behavior that's worked for decades and decades. And so to break that behavior, you need to build something that is not one or two times more effective than going to the store but 10 X and really, that's where the product offering needs. to elevate the purchasing to where I don't need to leave my home, or if I did, I need to at least see what's online to really inform my experience in a way that I could never get on store. So it's a combination of awareness, and then a product offering that is just so superior going to the store, that they're going to order it online. Again, utilizing that store, though, 54:18 for sure. And I don't know, I mean, I guess there is there is also something about, you know, being a consumer going to the store, looking at it holding in your hand. And maybe, maybe that'll just become a thing of the past. Like, what do you what do you try to do to try to like counteract, like, some arguments like that? I mean, but then again, there's also like, Alright, well, you know, people used to love to have the feel of holding a newspaper in their hand, but nobody really does that a lot anymore, either. Can I still read the newspaper? I gotta be honest, physical core. You're killing me, man. Like you're young. You're young and hip, man. You shouldn't be reading a newspaper. 54:54 no and no one I know we call me hip, but that's all right. I wrote for newspapers for a long time. DDS. to bash on them, I mean, for God's sake, 55:03 there isn't. There's a key word in there that was it was wrong. 55:08 Yeah, but to your to your larger point, I don't want to necessarily be in a world where you can't feel a physical bottle where you can't go look at it, I want to lean into that. And so while the physical store might need to change, I hope it still exists. And I do think it should exist, but in a little bit different format. Instead of trying to have 5000 or 10,000 items on your shelves, and trying to have that inventory in that working capital and play that game. I'd love to see a world where you can almost have a retailer that has an e commerce DNA from day one. And then they have the experiential side of going in being able to taste products being an elevated experience knowing that on the back end, you can get any of those products delivered to you shipped to you or walk away with them from a warehouse around the corner. So they almost become showrooms informed by the DNA of e commerce versus having to compete in the current way of doing things today. 56:00 So So drizzly has been very active on the, you know, on the on the trade front. Where what do you do from a legislative perspective? Dr. You do you guys have a lobby firm that you're spending time in DC Do you do lobby in every state that you're in? Talk us through that particular process from the government perspective. 56:23 It's a core competency of ours. It's really what we were built on. So we have an internal team composed of General Counsel who has industry affairs experience, and then also the woman I mentioned Jackie fluke, who was on the New York State Liquor Authority, and they're really quarterbacking state by state, both almost legal protection side of things, and then an advocacy side for what we believe to be the best way to bring this industry online. We have lobbyists in every state that there is legislation moving we're in those rooms and our real thesis here is the engagement is important because I mean, we spend all day thinking about content tumors and the intersection of their needs and desires with a controlled and regulated substance. We want to be a part of that. And we think we can actually help doing so. So that actually speaks to something else we're doing, which is taking our platform into the cannabis world in the near future as well. 57:16 Oh, that's I think you hit on a pretty good topic there because we've we've actually covered on the podcast before what's the effect of cannabis and the, the, you know, this the distilled spirits market? What do you kind of see is the cannabis market kind of being an opportunity? 57:30 Well, I think it's a massive opportunity. And we started, you know, talking about market size. Alcohol is 130 billion dollars sold off premise each year 2% online. So you can do that math. We think cannabis is going to be a 30, maybe $35 billion legal market within five to seven years. But you're talking 40%, maybe even 50% online. It's a different consumer behavior, and there's no ingrained I know how to go to a store and there's no kind of behavior you need to break off, there's actually a stigma from going to a store. So all of that coming together, we think is a great opportunity. We do think it needs to be informed by alcohol legislation and the know how behind bringing alcohol online, it's just it needs to be treated with respect as a category. And that's one of the things we think we can really bring to that conversation. 58:22 Okay, so I have a request for your cannabis stuff, your delivery, you need to have guys on with backpacks on bicycles. Doing the deliveries through through town. 58:35 You mean like the movie half 58:36 but yeah, exactly. 58:40 Yeah, that's not gonna. 58:43 That wouldn't make it right. A legal team. 58:45 Yeah, no, you definitely wouldn't. But you could absolutely work beside me because I come up with these ideas all day long and get shot down. So it's good. I mean, it 58:54 is another thing that you know, even with the cannabis market, I mean, if you're, if you're always engrained in these legal discussions. Do you find it like fascinating that the legalization of cannabis and the l

- Matt Mills You care about their family; you care about each other's success and what you're doing. And you never want to. You never want to see anyone suffer, especially from things out of their control. As far as our, personally, with my business, I was telling them the first person and not get paid, it's gonna be me or will be me or is me. So as far as the restaurants go, it's just such a tenuous thing.   -  Liesel Mertes Hi, this is Liesel with the Handle with Care podcast.  Perhaps you are sitting at home listening…because so many of us are sitting at home in this time of COVID-19.  Or maybe you are an essential worker, going out into a world of exposure because you still have a job to do.    Coronavirus is top of mind for everyone, so we are doing a special miniseries here on Handle with Care.  Workplace empathy, truly seeing the whole person and not just the job, has never been more important to as many people as it is now.  We are going to be talking to all kinds of people affected by the shutdown, giving you valuable insights and guidance within their stories so you can help those around you.    Today, we are talking with Matt Mills of Mills Catering, headquartered in Indianapolis.  Matt is a hard worker, a straight shooter, and, as someone who has been fortunate enough to sample his cooking, he is a bang-up chef.  And COVID-19 has hit his business, hard.    Before we begin, I’d like to thank our sponsors, FullStack PEO, providing benefits and HR support to small businesses and entrepreneurs, and Motivosity, a software solution to brings fun and engagement to your employees.   Now, back to Matt and his story…   - Liesel Mertes Would you tell me just a little bit about Mills catering? How long you been around? Why you started doing this catering thing?   - Matt Mills Sure. While I was an English major. That's why I became a caterer. Absolutely. As what? The creative writing major. So, my father is in the food business, the wholesale Sysco for all my life. I worked at Cisco for a while. I started working there when I was 13 in the maintenance department. When I went to college, dabbled with restaurant stuff a little bit after that, but my first real job cooking, I ran the cafeteria, Sysco in Indianapolis Fed three shifts, didn't go my head from my butt and I loved it, loved the oh, let's see what we can do with this.   - Matt Mills It actually prepared me quite well for what I do now because they are basically, they'd give me things. I'd plan a menu on the fly. We'd figured out and realize I know what I was doing, went to culinary school in Rhode Island, came back, worked in some restaurants, was working for a local restaurant in town and did a catering job for them and spent about 20 hours on it and used some of my own stuff and realized that I didn't need a middleman for this.   - Matt Mills And it picked up one or two people that were interested in events. And I was like, you know what? Let's give this a shot. Quit my job, started buying equipment and slowly started a business and went from a couple different locations and worked out to cast the old cast across from.   - Matt Mills I guess it was we're be-bop pizza was a forty fifty fourth and college worked out of there for a while. Shepherd community who will give a kidney to at any time if they need one has very good to me. And Jay Height is probably one of the best people I know. He. They've been in there instrumental in me staying in business for a while. Had a baby about 15 years ago, so I ran a business 18 years. He's paying taxes legally.   - Matt Mills And when Silas was born, I remember having a conversation with my father. Lon is like, we going to get serious about this or what? So, I bought a building right after that. And then. Just started quietly building business in spite of myself. I'm not very good at. social-networking I don't really. We finally got our Facebook page up and running after 10 years. But Zo, in spite of myself, we've just been quietly under under promising and overdelivering and trying to do our best.   - Matt Mills And if we don't do our best, we fix it. So. That's good.   - Liesel Mertes And just for the human dynamic. Will you tell me a little bit about your wife and son?   - Matt Mills My wife is my better three quarters Anastasia. Catherine Anastasia Mills. She is much smarter than I am. She is very talented in law, gardening, music. Just about everything she does, my son is 15 sales smells. He goes to cathedral. He is such a good friend and a good teammate and a great kid.   And I couldn't be more blessed like that. And yes, a rousing endorsement on my part about your wife, especially.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. I had, um. I had a friend who well, Sam, we had dinner. He dropped our food for our family. And as I looked at it, they said, oh, that's actually from Matt Mills catering until my dad's. I mean, I know I've been the beneficiary of some of your cooking   effect of some of the food that you gave him. So, thank you from my family to yours. That's funny.   - Matt Mills Well, as far as my business goes, we. It pretty much has wiped me out for about the next two months. And once we get into wedding season, that's definitely going to get a lot more interesting as people try to life events tend to take a lot of time to plan and tend to be expensive for some of them. So, we got some figuring to do on that. As far as restaurants go in food service in general, pretty much if you got any place right now you you have the owner, all salaried people doing what they can to keep the doors open.   - Matt Mills And then I know many places like this where they'll pull temps and try to help offset expenses and help pay any staff, because pretty much servers went away about, what, a week ago. Yeah. And that's a that's a real thing. I don't know why I don't know the end plan on this, but if we can't if we can't adapt, I don't I don't know. I think that's what everyone is doing right now.   - Matt Mills Everyone's just kind of seeing what they can do. Changing what they do. Compromising any way they can. We were all families, basically, when you when you look at a restaurant or any kind of business and you want to make sure you take care of your family and it puts an especially owner is in a tough situation and there's really not right answers. But I don't know. Do what you can, I guess.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about that. When in the midst of normal times, what is that kind of family or collegial interaction like?   - Matt Mills Well, for us, it's kind of like a crew on a pirate ship. We're all there. We're all there because we want to be there. And I would love to say it was a military example, but it's not. We just, you know, we we kind of you work with someone, you form a relationship, you start, you care about them as a person.   - Matt Mills You care about their family; you care about each other's success and what you're doing. And you never want to. You never want to see anyone suffer, especially from things out of their control. As far as our, personally, with my business, I was telling them the first person and not get paid, it's gonna be me or will be me or is me. So as far as the restaurants go, it's just such a tenuous thing.   - Matt Mills And now I'm losing in the middle May. I've had June stuff either move in some of these things or reschedule and we'll figure that out. But its kind of is what it is. I like I said, I'm trying to figure out the best way to be a steward of the funds we have. Make sure everyone can get paid. Make sure we can kind of be in control of the situation as long as we can. We've even switched what we're doing now, we're doing catering.   - Matt Mills So, we run deliveries. We have free delivery. That's what a lot of restaurants have done. They've gone to to carry out pickup or they've changed what they've done all together. They've become commissaries.   - Matt Mills I've taken steps to help fortify things. But it's I'm not really concerned about the business. It's not going anywhere. I'll need to die, or the building needs to burn down for me to quit. But I keep my guys and I want to keep their I want to help them help feed their family. So, we're trying to stay busy. That's kind of where we are.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Tell me about that. Because as I have been talking with and doing communication coaching for executive teams, you know, I realize there's a particular burden of someone at the top who realizes that the decisions that they make have trickle down to all the peoples families who are present in there.   - Liesel Mertes How has that felt to you as you're facing the realities of the market and the people who make up your pirate crew?   - Matt Mills Pirate crew? Thank you very much. Well. I like the fact that we're still working. It's kind of in our bones and it's what we do. So, it gives us normalcy in that. And if we can feed some people and help some people and feel like we're actually doing something towards it, I think that's a win. So that's kind of. We always run by the. The theory, it's not the philosophy, it's not what happens, it's what happens next.   - Matt Mills Like things happen. Now what? So, this was a now what moment where. Now what are we gonna do? Well, we're gonna do this meal kid thing if that doesn't work. I've talked to the guys. I'm like, if they shut it down, maybe we can be at someone's hungry somewhere. I'd rather be cooking even if I don't make a damn dime on it. Cause that's what we do and kind of go crazy if I don't do it for a while.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. You mentioned is keeping you up at night. Tell me a little bit more about the stuff that's keeping you up at night.   - Matt Mills I've had a lot of peace about it. My my fears are the unknown. I think that pretty much sits with everyone because there's so many things we don't know right now. I think that. Needs are gonna go. The needs that everyone has now will change as this progresses and as things get more and more restrained. I mean, I'm I'm fortunate or we're fortunate in that as being part of food service. I don't think that we are going to physically close down, but I don't know what happens with grocery stores.   - Matt Mills People go into the store. There's just a lot of unknown as far as. It's just interesting because like food banks, I think food banks are struggling to find product right now, even if they have funds because everyone's in the same boat. Everyone wants the shelf stable. They want the the past policies and they want the something you can pull out and feed your kids. So that that keeps me up the business stuff. It's all things. It doesn't matter just the personal cost on this for us as a as a city and everything else.   - Matt Mills That's what that's what worries me. It's all right.   - Liesel Mertes I mean, I've I've had a growing sense of just the long tail on this. And they're the relational cost then as people are just dealing with all of that, the stress of work, insecurity or people being laid off, you know, how that how that comes out and different behaviors and. Yeah. Like, you know, our alcohol sales are through the roof right now and not that that's inherently bad thing. But, you know, I'm going to be having an interview later this week with a guy who, you know, is fighting for his sobriety.   - Liesel Mertes And what does it mean to have all the AA meetings closed down? Right. Have everybody drinking. And, you know, it's just all these human dramas that are compounding as time goes on.   - Matt Mills Sure. But it's not. I will say this. I really value the time we've been able to spend at home because we were always in orbit of each other and we're always at the same place, you know. So, it's it's been very nice just to be. The circumstances are shit. And I would love the circumstances, but it's just kind of nice to. Be together. And this also brings out the resilience and people, because you see people that like, oh, now we're gonna do this and we're gonna look out for each other this way or we're gonna.   - Matt Mills I'm sure that you can find countless stories of people helping people and where we live. We have a bunch of bikes we're going to put on the porch because there's a swap. So now you don't have to go the storm by stuff. We all have stuff we can kind of trade. And we hopefully this will bring us a little closer as people that we're not supposed to talk to one another face to face.   - Liesel Mertes You know what? Then I like the turn of phrase is not what happens. It's what happens next. And tell me a little bit about some of your most fun at home times as you've been enjoying being with stations. I was.   - Matt Mills Well, we've we've been watching movies, which we don't usually do, but it's just fun to sit together and be together. We play anagrams or we try to pick out a board game and make it work. Dinner is more of a source of entertainment.   - Matt Mills I love trying to figure out what we're gonna eat and station would always I drive her nuts in that I would try to run out of food before I'd get more. I'm really good at survival cooking. I guess that can of beans last for me. But I like the challenge of that. Our drawers have never been more organized. Hopefully the sun will come out eventually and we have this side. But I don't know. It's just going to be stuck with people.   I'd rather be stuck with them.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, you wouldn't want people to know about it. I don't know. People who are in the restaurant business or catering. You would want them to have an awareness of or do you have any word like that?   - Matt Mills In what way? I don't know. Like, I actually write things like, hey, still, you know, be buying gifts, certificates or.   - Liesel Mertes Absolutely. Is there a call to action like that?   - Matt Mills I do. I'm not as connected as I should be. I mean, be aware that it's not for people in the industry, but for people out of the industry. There's a lot of people off work and suddenly off work because of this. And yeah. Gift cards, I think are a great idea. If you're I mean, these people are still good at doing carry out and stuff as long as we can do that. Any tips you usually do, they'll pull and give the servers.   - Matt Mills I mean it's it's not critical yet, but it's gonna get interesting I think for sure. I don't I don't think this is going to end us. I think we're gonna be OK. Just going to suck for a while.   - Matt Mills Yeah. Yeah, I hear that. Well, thank you, Matt. I hope that the rest of your day, whether it's movies or Bananagrams, goes, well, I am surprised. I'm sitting in my closet with the door locked and I told my husband before I went and I was like, Luke, can you please keep the children from screaming at each other just as long as I'm in there? And it's been remarkable because this is the longest stretch to day that we haven't had either war cries or loud games of tag.   - Matt Mills So, I've got some fun, actually. And they they are kind of fun.   - Liesel Mertes There's there's an element there, all kinds of things that are chaotic about having four children. There's also things that like they still have like a kind of cohort like to play with and fight with. And so, everybody's at a pretty high emotional pitch, which can be glorious or devastating. But they do have other options all the time.   - Matt Mills So, there you go.   -  Liesel Mertes Thank you for making the time. I appreciate it. If you need smarter answers, I could probably think on things until you give them all. Those are good answers. And yeah, I think more than anything, you know, talking about owning your words in your heart.  Your your heart for your people, but also the power of, you know, ducking your head and doing the work and being willing to pivot. Is is a good word. I especially liked. Yes. It's not what happened, but it's what happens next. So, I think it's a good word for people. And thank you. All right. Have a good afternoon, Matt. All righty. See you. I like.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   As always, here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Matt Mills I hope this conversation opened you up to one of the stories behind the numbers.The men and women being affected are not just data points, they are people with families and passion, scrappy entrepreneurs and workers that are feeling this deeply Buy gift cards or order carry-out.People in the restaurant and food service are doing everything they can to keep their pirate ships afloat…I have linked the Mills Catering Facebook page to the show notes.  This is the best place to keep up with daily menu items and delivery options.  Try the coleslaw I loved Matt’s turn of phrase: it’s not about what happened, it’s about what happens next.  This is, in a time of great uncertainty, perhaps a good word for everyone.  What happens NEXT for you?    OUTRO   Mills Catering: https://www.facebook.com/Mills-Catering-122716954412270/?eid=ARAsePo1FH2OYPk9_Q_UhyxBJAYJQ8cgc1xiN3nH-Y7UWGKaTFmwWAPxQm4dLo5y6xAnUXokFIzXjIvS

Today’s episode features one of the largest spirits companies you might not know much about. You’ve heard of brands like Ezra Brooks, Rebel Yell, and Blood Oath, but there is a lot to discover about Luxco. We sit down with Philip Lux, Global Brand Ambassador at Lux Row Distillers and son of CEO Don Lux, as he guides us through the family history of the Lux’s along with their acquisitions of bourbon brands. Then we also get the inside scoop on what’s happening at Lux Row Distillers. After sourcing whiskey for many years, it became apparent they needed to build a distillery and they did it right in Bardstown, KY. We discuss the future of the brands and how they plan to grow and evolve. Don’t sleep on this location during your bourbon trail visit because the facility is incredible. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Find out what it’s like to taste whiskey straight from the barrel with Barrell Craft Spirits. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Black Market Liquor Sales: https://www.forbes.com/sites/fredminnick/2020/03/19/wholesalers-warn-of-black-market-liquor-if-liquor-stores-close-amidst-coronavirus/#3b5445042e88 Supporting Spirits United: https://p2a.co/JRoHtT8 Bourbon Pursuit USBG Fundraiser: bourbonpursuit.com/usbg Bourbon Crypto: https://www.coindesk.com/wave-financial-to-tokenize-20m-worth-of-bourbon-for-new-whiskey-fund Pat Heist on TedX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSLWEnz-1mc This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about supporting craft distilleries. What was your introduction to bourbon? How did you get into the business? What stands out about bourbon when you are traveling? Talk about the difference between Luxco and Lux Row. Did your dad ever tell you about how he had the foresight to acquire all these brands? Tell us the story of David Nicholson. Talk about Blood Oath. Was Rebel Yell acquired the same time as David Nicholson? Tell us about your bourbon portfolio. When did you break ground on the facility? Why did you decide to build in Bardstown and not St. Louis? What is the difference between regular David Nicholson and the reserve? Tell us about your still and capacity. Any worries about your bourbon being ready in 4 years? Are you trying to replicate the existing flavor profiles? What is your storage capacity? What is something that people might not know about your brands? When is the Lux Bourbon coming? Any plans to use this facility to support Luxco? What issues have you had starting a distillery? 0:00 If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is a six course online program that will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry offered by the AACSB accredited college of business. This certificate is taught by business professors and industry leaders from Brown Forman beam Suntory jack daniels and more. join this one of a kind experience and prepare for your next adventure. get enrolled into this online program at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. 0:38 Let's kind of talk about you know your history your your upbringing, because because you're you're young strapping lad your last names luck, so obviously you have something to do around here. Yeah. 1:00 Welcome back, everybody. It's Episode 246 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny, one of the hosts. And here's your Cova 19 updates because a lot has changed since last week. Texas has temporarily adjusted its laws to be more lenient on the drinks industry and are now allowing alcohol as a part of to go orders. This is pretty big news because we know that anything in Texas that is regulated by alcohol is very, very hard to change. And they are also in listening distributor trucks that are designated for alcohol only delivery to support grocers and delivery needs during this time for roses distillery will temporarily suspend their operations of us distillery located in Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, and that began on March 20 of 2020. And based on the current situation for roses expects to commence operations once again on April 6 of 2020. A new statement by the wine and spirits wholesalers of America or known as the W swa their CEO and President Michelle Cosmo warns that in a crisis 2:00 consequences are major concerns for industries and private citizens. And they implore all governors to keep Wine and Spirits retailers open as to not encourage bad actors to pop up black market liquor operations. Other industry partners including the distilled spirits Council of the United States, otherwise known as discus has made a similar statement. And Fred MiniK recently published an article on Forbes, referring to the actions taken by the state of Pennsylvania, where they closed the doors of all alcohol stores in the state that the same thing could happen to them, as it did during Prohibition. And you can read more with his article to the link in our show notes. Right now, many other distilleries are making hand sanitizer. Back on March 20 of 2020, the FDA issued a new guidance for the temporary manufacturing of hand sanitizer by companies and entities that are not currently regulated by the FDA as a drug manufacturer. The TTB or the Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau has found that it isn't necessary and desirable to waive provisions of internal 3:00 Revenue law with regard to distilled spirits, and therefore is providing certain exemptions and operations to distilled spirits permittees who wish to produce ethanol based hand sanitizers to address the demand during this emergency. any existing DSP can immediately commence production of hand sanitizer or ethanol for use in hand sanitizer without having to obtain authorization first. These measures are generally authorized under authorities that apply in disaster situations, and are right now approved through June 30 of 2020. There are now over 50 distilleries across the US that have switched to making hand sanitizer including big ones like wilderness trail, smooth Ambler town branch, rabbit hole, old Forester, and there's many more craft distilleries across the nation like co vault, Illinois, Coursera in Tennessee, and Caledonia spirits in Texas. I would love to be able to give everyone a shout out on here but you can contact your local distillery to see if they had any available Republic purchase in a day. 4:00 There's a lot of giving going on by bigger corporations. And here's some of the highlights. Beam Satori and southern Glaser's are donating $1 million to support the impacted bar and restaurant employees. Beam centaurea is also working with other distributors across various states, including major brands, badger liquor, Fenway associates, Allied beverage Corp, Empire distributors, best brands, horizon beverage group and more to provide donations to local organizations that will further help to support in the trade of their respective communities. biagio has also pledged $1 million to the US VG or the United States bartenders guild and their emergency assistance fun for Cova 19. biagio is also doing another million euros to support bartenders in the United Kingdom with a million million pounds. Brown Forman is donating $1 million to us big the restaurant workers Community Foundation and one level is separating between those three different organizations. gallows, New Amsterdam vodka and barstool sports 5:00 created a new t shirt highlighting support your local bartender program, where 100% of the net proceeds will go to us bartenders guild foundation. And additionally New Amsterdam will donate $5 for every t shirt purchased. Jamison donates another 500,000 to the US big mixers distillery in Philadelphia have made a $10,000 donation to the US BG patrol is donating $1 million to three different organizations. You have the children of restaurant employees otherwise known as core, another round another rally and the James Beard Foundation. Sasa rack and fireball Have you started a GoFundMe called the world's biggest tip jar by starting it off with $100,000 donation, and it will match all contributions up to $400,000 donations with everything going to tax exempt organizations. Tito's is donating $1 million between four organizations focused on those in the industry. We have the core, US big Southern smoke and the world central kitchen. They're all 6:00 pledging another additional $1 million as further needs are seen. Zamora is donating 400,000 euros to charities such as Caritas, the Red Cross and the food bank foundation. Yelp, who you all know the app is providing $25 million in relief in the form of waived advertising fees and free advertising, products services and more that during this period. 6:24 In addition, we're trying to do our part as well. bourbon pursuit we have our own fundraiser going to help support the US BG or the United States bartenders Guild. So at this time, you can go and you can win bottles of pursuit series and our latest peril picks from will it go to bourbon pursuit.com slash USB G to get entered into our raffle? We appreciate all the support. 6:47 Discuss that we talked about a little bit early before the distilled spirits Council of the United States is now asking the government to include distillers in the Cova 19 Relief Fund. distilleries across the nation have close tasting rooms suspended to 7:00 And cancel large events to limit the exposure of Cova 19. As a result, the Steelers have been forced to make difficult decisions, including in some cases shutting down production in laying off staff. As a result, many distilleries may not be able to survive during this crisis. distillers right now employ 1.6 million people across the country and generate 180 billion dollars in economic activity for the United States. You can help take action by supporting spirits united with your name and vote with the link in our show notes. This story poured out a little bit over last week, and I'm sure many people know about it, but we need to report on anyway because we all know about jack rose. It's that iconic whiskey bar in DC that's owned and operated by Bill Thomas. But you've heard back on episode 67 and 127. They're putting up all 2700 bottles for sale. In response to the escalating health and economic crisis. The public can now search through their treasure trove by stopping into the bar 8:00 browsing their whiskey Bible menu which is also available online and talking to Bill Thomas himself, you can order anything you want. That could mean 20 or 30 year old pours in our bag or MacAllan hard to find bullet family estates or jack roses own private barrels that are made in collaboration with Blanton's and other distilleries. The drums will be packaged in little sealed bottles that could be kept on your home bar in pours of the rare stuff or anything that's $100 plus an ounce will be 50% off while all other pours are 20% off. Thomas says he plans to offer the spirits at a lower price than what consumers would find on the secondary market. If you're in the area, they also have to go cocktails available from all three of their company bars, jack rose, Imperial and DRAM and grain and classics like old fashions a Manhattan's two visible creations that they all have starting at $10 each. The story is spread and when it broke, people were lined up for around five blocks. Their website crashed and they had to use Facebook and Instagram to let everyone know 9:00 Know how to contact to them. So please check out the jack rose social pages for the latest and up to date info on how to get your hands on anything. All right, let's change subjects for a minute. Let's get out of the coronavirus talk. Wave financial has finalized an agreement with Danville Kentucky based wilderness trail distilleries to tokenize between 10 and 20,000 barrels of whiskey worth up to around $20 million that will be made publicly available through a specialized digital asset fund. Now if that didn't make sense, this is turning bourbon inventory into cryptocurrency. So known as wave whiskey 2020 Digital fund, investors are able to purchase asset backed tokens linked to an inventory of whiskey barrel this year, that will represent as many as 4 million bottles of bourbon by tokenizing. It wave says that investors can gain exposure to Bourbons value appreciation and can also share some of the proceeds from when a whiskey is sold to wholesale to merchants and three years after the whiskey is first 10:00 Still, and the tokens are then issued to investors, users will be able to trade their tokens at whatever price they wish. And wave is also in discussions with some security token exchanges to develop an official secondary market infrastructure to facilitate better trading in the whiskey back tokens. A wave spokesperson added that the token was available for accredited investors from all around the world. And what they first closed at the end of March and a second at the end of June, a final close expected to take into place in September. You can read more about that with the link in our show notes. And didn't more wilderness trail news. The yeast and fermentation doctor from wilderness trail that we all know is Pat heist, who we had back on episode 121. That blew everyone's mind, had his first TED Talk published. It talks about the effect of climate on production and the quality of bourbon. And this was done at TEDx at the University of Nevada. Give it a listen on YouTube with the link in our show notes. All right for today. 11:00 Today's episode, we feature one of the largest spirits companies you probably don't know much about. You've heard of brands like Ezra Brookes, Rebel Yell and blood oath. But there is a lot to discover about Lux CO, we sit down with Philip Lux, the global brand ambassador of Lux ro distillers and he's also the son of the CEO Don Lux, as he guides us through the family history of Lexus, along with the acquisitions of their bourbon brands and labels. Then we also get the inside scoop on what's happening at Lux ro distillers. After sourcing whiskey for many years, it became apparent they needed to build a distillery and they did it right in Bardstown, Kentucky. We discuss the future of the brands and how they plan on growing and evolving. Also, don't sleep on this location during your bourbon trail visit because the facility looks incredible. Let's get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char 11:56 it's Joe from barrel bourbon. Tasting whiskey straight from the barrel was truly alive. 12:00 changing moment for me. In 2013 I launched barrel craft spirits so everyone could have the experience of tasting whiskey at CAST strength. Next time ask you bartender for barrel bourbon. 12:11 I'm Fred medic, and this is above the char. I have some very, very staggering news. This just in from ACS a or better known as the American craft spirits Association. According to a survey of a CSA 150 craft of 150 craft distillers 67% will be forced to close within three months. 32% of those respondents said it, they won't even last a month 87% of all craft distillery tasting rooms have closed and 60% of the distilleries making craft spirits has already laid off employees or furloughed staff. 13:00 This is absolutely staggering to thousand small distillers across the country. And that survey tells us, we may very well lose two thirds of them in a matter of months. Those are people who have put it all in the line to do something that they love and, you know, want to really push the envelope. And this just breaks my heart. This just absolutely breaks my heart. The distilling community right now is trying to get federal support, you know, so they're basically looking for the same kind of federal funds that's going to be given to the airline industry in the hospitality industry. And here we are. 13:49 amidst this coronavirus scare, and we're about we're about to see a lot of a lot of great people lose their dreams. And that's just fair. 14:00 Very scary. 14:02 I think about what we do you know, Kenny Ryan and I, you know, this is, yeah, it's it's my job. But let's face it, I have a dream job. I talk and write about whiskey for a living like all the time. And I have some time said some things that are not so nice about craft whiskies. It was never anything personal. It's just about their whiskey. But never in a million years. What I wish this upon anybody in the industry, I can't even imagine, to begin to think of like, what it what it must be like right now to be a craft distiller and to know that if things don't change, you're going to have to shut down for good. So let's do what we can. Let's, let's do what we can Let's buy their products. And you may push back here and say, Hey, well, Fred, we can't go to the liquor store. Our governor is shut us down. We have to stay inside. You know, that's very well true. But get this. There's a 15:00 A lot of delivery services out there right now. That will bring a good old DRAM to your doorstep. You can go to silver box comm craft shack is another one you can go to drizzly calm, and these are all delivery services that will buy from a local retailer and deliver to you. Another one that you can join is called spirits network comm go to spirits network comm I actually have a lot of shows on there, but you can, you can buy booze, and then watch booze TV. So there's a lot of options out there that you can go to and buy craft whiskey or any kind of craft spirit. But listen, we have to band together we have to do what we can to help these small distillers because we can't lose them. We just can't. It's not. 15:51 It's very scary. It's absolutely very scary. And so let's do what we can let's band together. Hello 16:00 Let's save a distillery or two. 16:03 And that's this week's above the char. Hey, make sure you are checking out my YouTube I am dropping content every single day, in hopes of helping you get through the boredom. You can go to YouTube and just look for my channel. Just search my name Fred MiniK. Until next week, cheers 16:26 Welcome back to another episode of the bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Ryan back in Bardstown on the road again often, but this is fun, we love going on the road. And today it's funny because, you know, we drive around bars and we do a lot of these interviews. However, this is one place that I had never driven up and we drive past it quite frequently especially if you're a frequent are over at Keystone liquors. Yeah, you drive by where the cinemas you have the movies in. It's right across the street. It is and but this is it's one place where I drove up and I was I was amazed like 17:00 How beautiful the grounds are here at Lux row distillers and being able to in the first thing that we saw a was like some house that you said your buddy grew up in that owned the land here. And then we saw their their resident peacocks. Oh yeah, yeah, this. I've been up this driveway many times. You know, it's a running joke that I say that I'm from Bardstown. But I am from bars town and grew up hanging out here with my buddy john and his family. So 17:29 it's a beautiful property got a bunch of old farmhouses gold house and some peacocks and they were like Kenny walked up and they kind of spread their feathers out I think they're excited to see Kenny And so yeah, maybe maybe see us Who knows? Yeah, but I've kind of been you know, just being in town seen the construction and everything but never really seen it till now. And man it's an it's an impressive property with all the distillery and everything. So it's all about the property. But you know, this is also we're getting a chance to talk to 18:00 About a company that's kind of like a unknown Titan in the industry, you know, it's they've had a lot of established brands that have been out there. For the longest time, it had been a sourcing product and now that they are sealing the light, they're like, Hey, we got to grow, we got to expand, we got to we got to start pumping out our stuff too. And so we know when we start talking about these brands, a lot of them are gonna start ringing a lot of names like Rebel Yell, like Ezra Brooks, like these are all the labels that these are all the names that you're probably very well familiar with and probably didn't know much about the the distillery and the people that are behind it. So guilty. I don't know much. But now I do know, because we just did the tour got the family history, and it's like a really cool story. So I'm excited to share that with our audience. Absolutely. And that's a good way to kind of segue into our guest today. So today we have Philip Lux. Philip is the global brand ambassador for Luxor distillery. So Philip, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you, Kenny. Ryan, thanks for having me on. Absolutely. So 19:00 Before we kind of get into this and start talking about the whiskey in the tour and the grounds and all that sort of stuff again, let's kind of talk about you know, your history your your upbringing, because because you're you're young strapping lad, your last name is luck. So obviously you have something to do around here. Yeah. 19:16 So, you know, the and you kind of talked about like, your family's been in this business? What 40 years now something like a almost 60 years, almost 60 years. Wow. So talk about your first run in with bourbon. My first run with bourbon honestly, was was pretty recent, over the past two to three years when we decided to build this and that so your mom and dad and like 19:41 and now I mean, it's really was you know, as personally my my first run with bourbon was was recent, but as a company, we've been in the bourbon industry for over 40 years doing some private label stuff with my grandfather back when you know, he was still still around. And David Sherman, who originally started the business with my grandfather, Paul 20:00 Whenever you know it's doing that private label bourbon just for four different grocery stores or, or convenience stores, stuff like that around the country. And then we we bought our first bourbon. And I believe 93 with Ezra Brooks from from Glenmore distillers, who's now owned by Sam's rack and has just kind of grown from there. And, you know, that was a little over 20 years ago now and we've grown. We've had award winning brands and grown our brands over the past 20 years and into into big, big names that allowed us to now break off from sourcing and start our own distillery and have everything distilled in house verse, you know, sourcing our bourbon from somebody else. Okay, so let's get back to the original question. What was your first my first run with bourbon was was probably three years ago. In you know, Colorado when I was when I was living there and decided I wanted to get away from kind of the, the vaca vaca scene so I started to drink some different stuff and my mom actually came 21:00 To me and in said that'd be a really good opportunity for, you know, to maybe have an idea of getting into the industry as we're getting ready to build this so I jumped kind of head over heels into the bourbon industry and 21:13 kind of ran with it from there went to moonshine University in Louisville and where I really got introduced to bourbon and whiskey and that kind of helped me in golf myself in the industry and in golf myself and what bourbon really is, especially here in Kentucky in Louisville, where it's you know, American spirit and in most popular spirits, so, huh, so she kind of was like the catalyst you didn't really you were like, that's your thing. I'm gonna do my own thing. Yeah, I'd never even really wanted to be in the industry. My I was always not necessarily pressured. My dad always said Do whatever you want to do. Yeah, he was never pressuring me at all. It was always his friends are my friends asking when when are you going to get in the industry? When are you going to do this? do that so because I'm sure your friends are like, hey, yeah, 21:58 I mean, I would take boxes of boosts. 22:00 to college with me, whether it be vaca Yeah, you'd be Ron knock that probably we just got in the house, we used to own Admiral Nelson. So that was a pretty cool product for us. And that was a fun product in college. And everybody enjoyed that. But, you know, on the bourbon side, I really didn't know much about it until I started taking classes and really engulfing myself in it with Stephen thief, like I said, as well, with moonshine you and you know, my mom is said, you know, take a chance this is something that's different, it's something that's new, it's gonna be something that you can help grow and you can be a part of, I was working in a ski shop in Colorado two years out of school, and you know, love in life, but it's hard to work in a ski shop for the rest of your life. Right? Well, I guess I work in a ski town so I need to find something a little different. And I you know, I've I've used my dad in different people in the company, and then the industry is kind of stepping, you know, stuffing box to help me work into it and learn more about it and I feel 23:00 That I've, I'm learning, you know, every day, whether it be with our products or the distillation process or the supplier versus distributor side. And, you know, with my job, it really allows me to learn, you know, frequently and, and continue learning and traveling and seeing different how bourbon and whiskey is viewed in California versus in Kentucky versus in New York. You know, I like to call you know, the bourbon trail like the Napa Valley of the Midwest now because you guys probably see it firsthand as well where everybody's flocking here now for that burden. Even the peacocks even though 23:39 they're they're always here and they're, you know, they love it here. So kind of talk about what you do see the difference in in bourbon, whether it's the community or culture as you're doing these travels, you know, just across the US like what is what's something that kind of stands out to you? You know, I think something that really stands out is the, the recognition of the bigger 24:01 You know, you go to California where, and I went up to Seattle for Seattle cocktail week and people had never heard of Lexapro but they had heard of, you know, they heard of heaven, hell and Maker's Mark and Jim Beam. And, you know, being, for me my passion and what I really strive to grow not only our brands, but our brands are part of a bigger name now of Lux. Lux row. So I think you know, to answer your question, Kenny, the The major difference that I see is how quickly a brand like Lux row catches on in Kentucky, because, you know, we're a year and seven months out from, you know, putting juice in our first barrel. And people recognize those brands like you know, they, they have, you know, throughout time and they recognize Lexapro now, as in you go to San Francisco whiskey Fest, those are all whiskey, you know, enthusiasts, so they're gonna, you know, they're they've probably been following those brands, but they're not super familiar with it. Maybe they've seen that Lux ro logo somewhere and now they're gonna be you know, 25:00 Gonna be there and they can, you know, learn more about it on a first hand basis or up in New York, I was up there and personally introduce David Nicholson reserve into the New York in the Boston Market in front of all the distributors so just different brands that aren't necessarily recognized throughout the country or are and don't have a lot of backing to them that need help you know, growing and with the distillery it's allowed us to help grow those brands in a different way where we can one bring customers here and you know, they can see that product we have people from all over the country if not the globe coming here. When they come to see heaven Hillary Jim Beam or Maker's Mark or limestone branch down in Lebanon, they drive right past us now. So we're in a very unique spot here that 25:50 it allows us to help grow. Yeah, I mean, go ahead, right. Oh, no, good. All right. Well, I'll keep going. I mean, cuz i was i was talking about like his Yeah, I mean, we talked about 26:00 Kind of beginning to show that you know, the rebel gal David Nicholson blood oath like Ezra books like these are these are pretty iconic names in in whiskey like they've been around for a long time but people didn't really know a lot of the background. And so Lux ro is also is it underneath the umbrella or an extension of Lux co as well? Can you kind of talk about the differences what you have there? Yeah, absolutely. So Lux CO is I like to call it our parent brand. But Lux Lux row is actually technically a supplier of Lux Co. You know, we own it as a family. My dad, you know, is the chairman CEO still of Lux row, but we act as a supplier for Lux, COEs Bourbons. But we're also you know, owned and operated family operated out of St. Louis with my father. myself my brother my mom. My brother's not in the industry. he's a he's an aerospace engineer, but he's the winner. Yes, James. He's a one a little bit of a different path than myself But no, to each its own. Yeah. 27:00 I found you know, a niche here but yeah, I mean Lux CO is is a worldwide supplier of spirits. We own a multitude of about 100 different brands everclear probably being the biggest my grandpa Paul purchase that, you know, way back in the day that was his first popular guy in college. And to this day I'm proud to admit I've actually never drink and everclear Yeah, it really is brutal. Yeah, never drink and it was like hooch or something. 27:28 So it's, it's, you know, everclear is you know, the biggest one but then we've got you know, provoq arrow cordials we own three different two kilos, whereas tequila, which is our mixto which you can find in you know, like a Texas Roadhouse Well, it's you well Margarita is usually whereas tequila, we have LA or tequila, which is our ultra premium as well as exotic tequila. All based out of Mexico. But it all you know, we're the supplier for that. So we we've been partners with the Gonzales family over there for 28:00 3040 years my grandfather worked with Rodolfo Gonzales his father so so very family oriented. And then over on locks row even you obviously can't get to locks row if you don't have locks. 28:11 And so we've over the past 20 years we've purchased all of our bourbon brands as your Brooks been the first and 93 from Glenmore distillers. And then we had Rebel Yell in 99. We purchased from Stetson Weller, David Nicholson is one of my favorite brands to talk about because it started originally started in St. Louis, Missouri, and we can go into that story. You got a little bit of a soft spot for St. Louis don't I do I do St. Louis born and raised my hometown. Got to give a shout out to our blue Stanley Cup champions. But you know, all of our brands have a very unique backstory to them very unique roots. That's why here at Lux row we are I guess motto is real roots real family real products. We have the roots not only with the products, but the real roots here in Bardstown with the Ballard 29:00 farm. They've lived there and and Ryan you know this but 29:05 big john Ballard lived there for 40 years raised his kids there, his grandkids there. I mean, this was their family farm. So we have the real roots with the products as well as with the farm. We've got the real family with myself, my dad, my mom being the creative director. So she worked her butt off, you know, getting this place up the top notch, you know, within two years, and then we've got the real products and the drinkability obviously speaks for themselves when you when you let them touch your lips, but each one has different wards. As what to say cuz the ezard Brooks barrel proof kind of went off gangbusters this year. Yeah, we're going crazy. It was crazy. Yeah. So we'll right when we introduced it wherever we reintroduced it, Fred. 29:45 Fred MiniK, who's never heard it never had that. But he called it he called it his, 29:52 his 2018 everyday sipping whiskey of the year, which absolutely blew it off the rails, all the allocations from across the country. We're going to 30:00 Wire. And so people you know we're in love with it and then somehow some way it one in San Francisco 2019 straight bourbon of the year 2018 straight straight whiskey of the year, which was absolutely huge for us once again. But then David Nicholson reserve back to back 2000 back to back double Gold's in San Francisco and in 2017 2018 as well as straight bourbon of the year 2017 Rebel Yell 10 year old single barrel was top 20 whiskies of the world it was number 12 there were only three American whiskeys on that. So we were really really fortunate to you know to have that one it's also very delicious product as well as won some some gold medals. So each one you know that real roots, real family real products, you know really comes into play with Lux row as well as Lux CO and St. Louis. But you know, very family oriented but Lux Lux row is what we that's what we strive here. So he says your dad ever told you about how you had the foresight to like start buying up these brands like before the you know, the big boom 31:00 Like, has he ever talked about that? Like, why did he get why did bourbon interesting, I guess from in the early 90s? When no one cared? Yeah, it's a great question and I'll need to, to pick his brain about that. Because, you know, I should definitely know that I know that. He's always looking to acquire and sell different brands, whether it be bourbon or, or rum or vodka, or tequila, stuff like that. But, 31:24 you know, he's, he sees an opportunity, and he'll jump on it. I mean, David Nicholson, he literally bought that product from the Van Winkle family. He was on the phone with Julian Van Winkle, which is pretty cool story, especially. I mean, if you guys want I mean, I can go into you know how David Nicholson 1843 came about, do it. Let's hear it. But so my favorite This is my favorite story to tell about our Bourbons because it hits home for me, it goes back to 1843. I've looked it up on Google, and actually found it. Actually, it actually found David Nicholson's grocery store that I'm about to talk about in St. Louis. Okay. He was a great 32:00 grocery store owner back in 1843 in St. Louis, Missouri. So he made that four year old weeded bourbon in his basement of his grocery store 50 years later as well, it's like you can do that 50 years later in 1893, some guy named Pappy Van Winkle. Never heard of them might know something about we did bourbon. I'm not sure. What's that? Yeah, exactly. He purchased that product continued that Nashville and then in 2000, my father, Don purchased that product from from Julian Van Winkle. So which means we've now brought that full circle from 1843. Back to St. Louis, where it originally started, which is a really cool story to tell. It's 100% true, and it it puts that family you know, atmosphere that family feel back in that product that has been there throughout time but might not have been recognized. And then we introduce David Nicholson reserve that won a bunch of awards. It's not it's a seven year ride bourbon at 100 proof so they they interact with each other very well. 33:00 They're different taste profiles, one's very creamy, one's still a little bit sweeter because of that we did bourbon. 33:06 So that you know, that's David Nicholson is a really cool story with with roots dating back to 1843, but also roots a back to the Van Winkle family. So where was blood oath made? Not a grocery store, right? How not to talk about that, and how it got its name and how it made it wait made its way to your portfolio. So blood oath was a product that were our head distillers very, very fond of john rappy. We wanted something that he could put his name to, and that it could be his in that he could continue to create, you know, delicious blends, you know, year after year. So, you know, john goes to different places and different distilleries and finds very unique barrels that he can blend together. And what we wanted was three extra age Bourbons blended together with a unique bourbon that's finished in something different. So packed, one was 34:00 three extra age Bourbons blended together not finishing anything unique barrel after that and pack to three extra age Bourbons, one of which was finished in a pork barrel from Meyers winery in Cincinnati. 34:12 also failed and operated with my cousin Paul Lux who owns Meyers winery. Pack three was finishing a Cabernet 70 on barrel for an extra six months. JOHN actually went out to Napa Valley and pick those barrels from the the smiley or the head wine guy you know at Swanson vineyards Napa Valley pack for was finished in Rebel Yell 10 year old toasted oak single barrel. So that was a 10 year old, a 12 year old and a nine year old and that nine year old was finished for an extra six months. So you got very dark chocolate notes. So these are all things that you know, john, personally, you know, puts that bourbon in those barrels and tastes them month over month to make sure that they're at that flavor profile that he wants. So when I tasted that blood oath, or that that nine year coming out of 35:00 Those old 10 year old toasted oak barrels It was very dark chocolate tasted not like chocolate milk, but kind of cocoa almost. It had a very, you know, chocolatey taste to it and then pack five you know, everybody's looking for that extra aged, super high proof, very unique Bourbons these days, so pack five, it's a, 35:21 an eight year old 12 year old and a 13 year old and that the eight year old rize actually finished for an extra six months and Caribbean rum cast. So that's what we're drinking right now. Nice. That Caribbean rum casks you get 35:33 you get very sweet and sweet. Yeah, Ryan signs empty, sweet sugary notes on the front end. You get like dark fruit banana, you get that okayness coming through from that extra age that you know 13 and 12 year old coming through there. So blood oath is something that 35:51 you know, the but the blood of the tests is that you know, nobody knows where he finds his barrels or his bourbon but you know, he puts together 36:00 product that is very unique and is for the the bourbon enthusiast. And if you'd like I can read you know what the actual blood oath label says on there. But it'll, it'll, it gives the whole story but if you think about it, you prick your finger with a buddy, and you make a blood oath, you know, you don't tell, you know, tell those things. Only you guys know where it's from, and tell you get on the podcast and 36:23 reveal everything. It's all we do. We sit here and poke and prod until you run out mash bills and ages and where your source your barrels, we save our blood. 36:32 So that's cool. I mean, that's, I think that's a side of, of, at least that particular brand that most people don't know about. You know, for I mean, I can remember when I think blood was packed, one came out, and there was just kind of this, like, what is this? Where do they come from? It's in a box like, what, what is this stuff? And so now we kind of have a little bit more of the information and really kind of what goes into it now. Now I know that each pact is uniquely different as well. It's not so 37:00 supposed to be this 37:02 similar creation over and over and over again? Yeah, the main similarity and that's only three barrels yet another thing to three three extra age Bourbons is the main submit similarity, excuse me, and, you know, each year, different box different label different flavor profile completely. And it's something that that john can really get behind and put, you know, a lot of his passion to it as well, other than, you know, all the other Bourbons, but he loves the blood oath, and it's growing in popularity, you know, year over year, we've continually made more of it. It's still allocated. 37:36 But I believe we made 37:39 I think it's 5003 in cases for this one, so about 15,000 bottles, maybe a little bit more might be vitamin 17,000 bottles, but it's allocated bottles for three barrels. You know how you're doing that? 37:51 Well, it's not three barrels total. Oh, yeah. Okay. 37:55 I thought it would be different. I literally thought it was like three barrels. No, no, so like, math as well. 38:00 All right, we'll take about we'll take about 40. 38:03 About 40 barrels. So like with the pack for we had 40 to 10 year old barrels that we sent back to the cooperage, they took them apart, scrape the number three char off, put them back together, suck a flaming hot rod in the middle for about an hour, put a very deep toast on them, put it back together and send it back to us. And then we aged that nine year old or finished that nine year old for an extra six months in those barrels. So it wasn't all three Bourbons finishing those barrels, it was only that one. So then john will blend them together in whatever way he finds, you know, best so that he gets those flavor profiles that he's looking for. So it's more than just it's three, three types of barrels. But it's not three barrels total. Gotcha. And so it was was Rebel Yell acquired at the same time as David Nicholson. About a year before but right around the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's, that already has a pretty historic past, you know, being something that was at Stillwell or stuff like that, you know, it's it's good to kind of get the background of 39:00 What these are and I'm assuming this is this is the the line that you have right now in your Bourbons. Yeah Miss Rebel Yell at her Brooke split oath and David Nicholson, the Rebel Yell we just reintroduce, or we just new label on it, which you know pops much better than the old one, you can really read the lettering. So we've reintroduced that to the, to the market. 39:22 You know, we're coming out with new bottles and new new products eventually, as you know, as we get going. 39:32 There'll be there'll be something along the lines of you know, a regular or just like a distillery product from Lux row. 39:40 So definitely look look forward to seeing that at some point. 39:45 But yeah, this is this is our line. These four products are two mash bills. I ride Nashville and our we did Nashville, we can get to all of our products from those. Hmm. And so I guess let's talk a little bit about the distillery here because 40:00 Cuz we mentioned when we were walking and talking, breaking ground around 2016, which was, you know, for us, I remember doing the podcast and we're like, oh, what's this place that's getting ready to start and we didn't really, really think anything of it now, a couple years later, we're here finally doing a podcast. Yeah. And then you realize they make you know, they have Rebel Yell and all those brands, all the big brands, yeah, I'd never heard of before. And so kind of talk about the the timeline of breaking ground. When you first started distilling, getting everything online, first barrel, everything like that. Yes. So see, we broke ground, January 2016. 40:39 The ballers lived in that house pretty much two weeks until we broke ground on the property. So it was still their family farm pretty much up until then, I mean, we obviously haven't get out. 40:50 So yeah, we broke ground, January 2016. We're on about a two year you know, we wanted it to be you know, up and running in two years. So 41:00 January 2018, I think January 10. We filled our first barrel, January 5, we turned the steel on. 41:06 And then April 11, we opened up to the public. So that was our grand opening. And that was a huge day not only for our family, but for our company. It was the largest investment that we've ever made for our company. But it was really big in nursery, more morale, but just for the whole team, I mean, my dad shut down our whole company in St. Louis and bust about 350 of his employees out here so that they could stand out on this front lawn while we had bagpipers walking, you know, taking my mom and my dad and David Bratcher, the president of our company down to the flagpole to, you know, to raise that Lux row flag for the first day. So you got people that, you know, have worked have driven a forklift in a warehouse in St. Louis for 30 years, with a smile on their face coming to work every day for my dad and my grandfather. That got to come out here and see firsthand where they're, you know where that Rebel Yell or that Ezra Brooks is that they're pushing every single 42:00 All day unloading trucks they got to see firsthand where that's made with with their co workers. And it really spoke volumes you know who our family is and what we're all about and just to have everybody out here is just a really cool experience. You know, April 11 2018 we'll remember that day is you know, the day that you know we we cut the ribbon on this place and open it up to the world and that really is what you know what what we did you know, not only here in Bardstown but i mean i'm going to London next week to you know, work in the market with our with Ezra Brooks and rebel yo with our, our international reps over there. So 42:37 to see a grow over the past, whatever it is year and a little over a year and a half now from where it was to where it is now and then just envisioning where it can go, you know, over the next two 510 years and past that is really special and just to see, you know, everybody in the company, really get behind 43:00 Everybody in you know, in our bourbon 43:03 section of Lux co get behind it and all the events that we're doing, we're now going to be at at every whiskey fest around the country. So Chicago, San Francisco, New York. 43:16 I'm missing a couple nights, but there's no whiskey fest whiskey in the winter in St. Louis. We'll have a booth there. So you know, the everybody's really getting behind it, especially here in Bardstown. I mean, you got to tell better mommies, they've got our products and they love it and they'll they'll sell it or 43:34 you gotta love Manny's Gotta love nannies you can't go wrong with the country cooking there. Yeah, we had one actually. We had a group that came here. I was like a VIP tour or something. And they went to mommies for breakfast. And they were just like, That was crazy. The pancakes are huge. And I couldn't even like we're bloated. Yeah. secondaries. Yeah. 43:54 So talk about why did you all decided to do the distiller here and not kind of do a footprint 44:00 You know in St. Louis, 44:04 there are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now, more than ever before. So how do you find the best stories and the best flavors? Well, rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rack houses box shipped out every two months to 39 states across the US and rack houses April box, they're featuring a distillery that mixes Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how rack house whiskey club is shipping out to whiskies from two bar spirits located near downtown Seattle, including their straight bourbon, go to rack house whiskey club comm to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 44:52 Why did you all decided to do the distiller here and not kind of do a footprint you know in St. Louis, you know you got a bunch of breweries here 45:00 They're, you know, a nice big city like, you know, in your bottling they're still currently why not do it there and instead of kind of putting your foots down here or not your foot putting making your stamp here in Bardstown? Yeah, definitely, I mean, I think I think that you know Bardstown is the heart of bourbon country. And we found that I think we wanted to be around everybody else. I think it definitely helps us being here. Versus you know, being in St. Louis. We have our other our plant in St. Louis, where everything else is made. But you know, this is bourbon country and we wanted to be by by the other distilleries, and we wanted to be right in the heart of it. Like I said earlier, you know, the, the Napa Valley of the, you know, of the Midwest is that bourbon trail right now, and yes, people are going through St. Louis to you, but they're gonna go there and see beer when they're coming through Kentucky. They're coming for bourbon and we needed somewhere that could be you know, 100% about our Bourbons that we could, you know, really get behind and, and we 46:00 been, you know, we've been sourcing for 20 years so we've been driving our barrels from Kentucky back to St. Louis for 20 years and it's been working for us why change anything now? Why not you know break ground in the heart of bourbon country where we have that limestone filtered water. I mean, we just still we cook we ferment with Bardstown city water, this limestone filter we don't do anything with you know, with it when we're putting in the cooks or anything like that. Well, you know, we'll reverse osmosis, purify it when we're, you know, we're proofing down everything, but to be here in Bardstown in the heart of it is what it's all about, and that's where the most traffic is. That's where people want to want to come to see that bourbon, and also, in Kentucky in it's the same weather as Missouri. You just get it about a day later, but you get all four seasons. You get all four seasons, very hot summers, very cold winters. So that aging process is really unique here in Kentucky, 46:54 and is probably the best agent process for bourbon. 46:58 So I mean 47:00 We're right in the home in Lebanon, Kentucky is not far away so independence Dave it's easy to get barrels from them. Everything very centrally located here in Kentucky. selfishly I like being in Kentucky because it's close enough to St. Louis Right. You can drive back for a few hours and one hour drive. Yeah, it's not bad at all. But I think this is where the majority of people know what they're talking about here in Kentucky for bourbon. And you know, when I got started I in the industry I it was a little challenging for me because I was kind of just cold calling on different bars and restaurants and stuff like that and the saturation of bourbon in in Kentucky. Louisville is just insane. I mean, you go into any bar and there's more than 100 Bourbons on there. So 47:48 to be able to get our name behind something that can compete directly with those big brands. With Lux ro but also you know, Rebel Yell is growing as her Brooks is growing. David Nicholson is growing. David Nicholson reserved 48:00 The biggest you know our top skew coming out of the distillery here you know it's it definitely speaks to the location that we're in. I guess I forgot to question about this so what's there between this the regular David Nicholson and the reserve the 1843 is a four year old we did at 100 proof so for us we did bourbon in the reserves a seven year old ride burn out 100 proof There we go. Yeah, so once we add ones ride, Alright, so now our listeners know exactly what you're looking at when you're perusing your store shelves. 48:29 So I guess, you know, as we kind of keep talking about the the distillery here and everything like that, what's the I mean, it's a massive still so kind of talk about the relationship you have with Vendome and and the size of it and kind of like how much product you're pumping out to. Definitely so yeah, we got are still 43 feet tall. 36 inches in diameter handmade custom copper still from Vendome in Louisville. So family operated with the Sherman family. 48:54 They are the best when it comes to still making this obviously, other stills hillbillies. 49:00 Try it instills. I would think Vendome is up there with, you know, the best in the industry. 49:07 But yeah, so Ours is a 43 foot column still, which then feeds the low wine into our doubler, which is also made by Vendome. I'm not 100% sure the capacity of the doubler. But once it gets into that double, there's a slide on that one. 49:23 pure, pure alcohol in there, no more grains or anything. And we're going to pump out about a million million gallons a year, which is about 70 barrels a day with the capacity to do about what we do about 20,000 barrels a year and we have the capacity to do about 50,000 barrels a year. If we add a couple fermenters 49:42 down the road when when we need that to production to jump up. Is that based off like what you're kind of seeing sales in the marketplace, either current brands or more is that kind of like we see this is the growth of what this company is going to be. Yeah, a little four to five years. Obviously, there's projections and I don't see those projects. 50:00 firsthand, but I think you know, we deplete about 20,000 barrels a year. So maybe a little bit less. But as as those projections and stuff as we get rid of some other barrels that we have at other distilleries will, you know, by the time those are finished, we'll be ready to dump our first four year old barrel here and we can just kind of jump right into it same seamlessly and that's what was kind of unique about us building building here as well is that you know, we've been in the bourbon industry owning our own Bourbons for over 20 years and and we've been doing it you know, we've we've had it it working very well and very good relationships and to have those those products. We're doing the same thing that those other distilleries had been doing for us, except now everything's in house and we can just, we were able to have have barrels aging, 50:56 continue producing those products and having them in the market. Why 51:00 We're building our distillery. So whereas you know, a smaller craft distillery that's just popping up out of the ground, they're either going to source their product off the start, or they have to wait, you know, a year or two years for their first product to come off the still or to be dumped out of the barrel for us, we could just jump right into it. 51:18 And they're not too much of a leeway. And in you know, getting that still turned on pumping out juice and just jumping right back into that, that process of putting bourbon in, you know, on the shelf. Yeah, I guess that that also kind of leads into another question is when you start thinking about when the day does come when your barrels are ready, until you said like 20 2022 2022 is kind of like the date that you all are aiming at. Is there ever any any worry because, you know, if you're, if you're sourcing and you're buying and you've been buying at a consistent product, and you kind of know exactly like what it's going to be at that age, you have a little high confidence and then now you're kind of like Okay, now we're working with our equipment. 52:00 Is there any sort of thoughts or worries to say like, God, I really hope it's gonna be ready in four years. Personally, I don't have any worry. But people in the industry I'm sure will have worry. 52:12 For I don't have any worry for a couple reasons. One, I've tasted our year juice that came out of our first make barrels. And it's absolutely delicious at 125 proof very calmly, very dark for a year, which gave me a lot of confidence into what we're going to be taking out of those barrels, you know, three years down the road, but also when when we're doing the exact same thing that those other distilleries you know, had been doing for us for 20 years, our head distiller was, was you know, we were deciding what that Nashville was going to be stuff like that. But when we pull our barrels, you know, especially for our Rebel Yell, and our Ezra Brooks, as well as some for the David Nicholson, but mostly the rebel Jonas for Brooks, we're going to pull in a cross sectional method from the Rick house, so we're not going to rotate any of our barrels so when we pull those barrels, we're going to pulled 200 barrels, maybe 250 barrels at a time and blow 53:00 those all together to get to that consistent, you know, flavor or proof that we've had for the past 20 years that's been, you know, award winning or that we've been putting on the shelves year in and year out. So, and that's all tested by our head distiller and some people back in St. Louis to making sure those flavors are there. But me personally, I don't really have anywhere because we have the best in business, you know, doing what, what they do here, but I'm sure that's going to be a thought of some people once we get our first product, you know, that we actually distilled here, you know, into the market. Y'all trying to kind of replicate the existing profiles you have now with the existing brands is that kind of what your match bills are geared towards is kind of replicating the agenda now. It's gonna be the same Nashville, we're using the same corn we're using the same wheat or rye, we're using the same yeast, everything like that. We're just doing it in house now. So gotcha. You know, it's, it's hard to I would think that would be the smart way to do it. 53:56 Yeah, I mean, it's it's hard to it's hard to kind of replicated 54:00 offer, you know, a year and seven month old barrel shirt. As we get closer and closer, I'm sure that replication process will become more in depth and taking a couple different barrels and mixing them together and proofing them down to see if we can get to that exact proof 54:17 for that exact flavor profile, which I know we will. 54:22 But yeah, I mean, there's definitely, I'm sure there's definitely some worry or thought into if it's going to be exactly the same. Mm hmm. I mean, I think that's always a always a concern when you're doing this and figuring out Okay, do we do we keep the sourcing do we start blending a little bit, that sort of thing as you start going down that path? Even more? 54:44 And so we kind of went on the tour kind of so we have what 1212 fermenters here 12 54:51 I'm already testing my knowledge here. 12 fermenters a massive still doubler what else am I missing that we kind of solve on our little tour here? 55:00 We talk about think tanks. So you got some proofing tanks, we'll we'll put, we'll put juice in the proofing tank said 140. And we'll prove it down to 120 4.9. For it to be bourbon can't go in 125 or higher. And so we'll talk about the storage capacity we have here too, because we were able to go inside there you have this beautiful wall of barrels, anybody that missed you can always check out Instagram scroll way, way, way back and you can probably find it but there was a an idea that they had of being able to make an impact when you come into a particular warehouse 55:34 to kind of talk about what that is. Yeah, so my dad Don and David Brasher, the president of the company had a really good good really great idea honestly to take out first couple Rick's and and Rick house and just make a big wall of barrels that people could see and, and allow people to really, you know, see what a wreck house looks like see the magnitude of a wreck house. 55:59 You 56:00 See how many barrels are in a wreck house from floor to ceiling instead of just being in a confined claustrophobic area and and leave you know a lasting impression on on people that come to the distillery 56:13 I don't don't quote me on this but I believe it's probably the number one picture people take at our distillery once they get in there the wow factor is definitely ducks. Yeah number two speaker blend them together and make one 56:26 you know the wow factors you know definitely there we have we have in that Rick house will all of them were are built by bucyk construction here in Bardstown also family owned operated. But you know, they were kind of skeptical about it at first until they did some engineering on it and they found a way that it would work. And so we were the first ones to do it. We're one of you know that Rick house is one of a kind in the industry. So they've bucyk is brought other people you know, that are maybe interested in it to kind of look at that, but all of our rec houses aren't like that. So that one holds our first one Rick house, one holds 57:00 19,200 barrels, and then all of our other Rick houses hold about 20,000 barrels. So if my math is right, about an 800 barrel sacrifice about 800 barrel sacrifice and we definitely think that that sacrifice you know paid off an aesthetic purposes. 57:18 I'm hoping that those barrels stay on that wall for a very long time, at least like 10 years. Me personally, but I'm not the one calling the shots when it comes to what barrels are being pulled. But, you know, we've got some special barrels on that wall that people can see and hear the story about. 57:36 And you know, those brick houses, that's where the magic really happens. I mean, in my mind the barrels most influential aspect of the bourbon process, see 70% of the flavor or 70% of the flavor 100% of the color. So it'll be interesting to see how a little bit of that extra airflow kind of affects the barrels in a positive or negative way. We hope all positive Yeah. 58:00 Either absolutely, hundred percent. But, you know, it's it's just we tried to be differentiate ourselves from other distilleries in a few different ways through visuals, whether it be the video at the start of the tour, the artwork throughout the tour, or, you know, the Rick house, you know, very, very visually appealing that people you know, it sticks with them when they when they leave here. Yeah, it's one of the first warehouses we've been around to recently that doesn't have like the black fungus several or Yeah, so we don't have that yet. We'll get better. I think it's starting to grow on a couple of the small trees out there. Yeah. 58:40 It's like every tree bars on the black like, like you brazenly like what's wrong with your trees? It's like, I'm worried. It's just the 58:47 tree. It's just the bourbon. It's just the bourbon talking. Yeah. So you know, last thing I want to kind of talk about because I think the brands are a very sort of focus for what you do in all the ambassadors 59:00 centering. I think that's a word that you that you do around the globe, sort of what is what has been like the one thing that people latch on to when you talk to them about their brand or about your brands? Like is there one thing in particular each one of these that they're kind of like, oh, wow, like, I didn't know that, or that's a pretty cool little factoid. I think there's there's a couple things. I think the roots behind each one of our brands is very unique. And people don't realize the roots that you know, each brand has come from, I mean, you mentioned if you mentioned stitz, a Weller to anyone that you know, drinks bourbon, they know that it was a very prestigious distillery back in the day that you know, has amazing juice that we've continued that you know, that process or you mentioned, the Van Winkle family. 59:44 Everybody knows who you are, most people that drink bourbon, know who, you know, the van winkles are so I think that the, the, the roots of each one of our Bourbons is very unique. The flavor profile is very unique, but what I really enjoy about this job 1:00:00 is telling our family story and how we've grown throughout the past 60 years, starting as just a small you know, private label distribution company in modeler all the way up to one of the top suppliers and you know, in the country, if not the world of spirits and to be able to grow that family name into bourbon is very special for for not only myself but for our family as a whole. I mean, I've my mom, and it was absolutely a job to raise me over, you know, 25 years but she put her heart and soul into this distillery for two year process and, you know, 1:00:45 the tasting room the visitor experience that was all her so to see, to be able to tell our family's story and put it behind not only the brands but the whole distillery in general is very special and I think people will actually latch on to it. 1:01:00 at, you know, whiskey fests and stuff like that. Because 1:01:06 no, okay, like you're saying, some people do know the brands, some people don't know the brands and, and if you can give them something to latch on to that reminds them of that brand. I think it's it helps them, you know, one they'll drink it, they'll maybe ask for that over a different product and at the store after, you know, they go from San Francisco whiskey fest drinking all day and night and the next morning, they're like, oh, what was you know, what was that? What was that product from Lux, Rhoda. Still it was that thing I can't remember. And then maybe, maybe they remember it. Or maybe I was just in the liquor store that they go to. And they walk in there. And I was just, I personally had just been talking to the owner and talk to them and explained all of our brands. So they walk in there and they say, Oh, do you have any brands from Lexapro, distillers? Oh yeah, we have Rebel Yell we have as Rob Brooks. We have these great 1:02:00 Are any of those ringing a bell and they can kind of relate to, y

PHP Internals News: Episode 41: __toArray() London, UK Thursday, February 20th 2020, 09:04 GMT In this episode of "PHP Internals News" I chat with Steven Wade (Twitter, GitHub, Website) about the __toArray() RFC. The RSS feed for this podcast is https://derickrethans.nl/feed-phpinternalsnews.xml, you can download this episode's MP3 file, and it's available on Spotify and iTunes. There is a dedicated website: https://phpinternals.news Transcript Derick Rethans 0:16 Hi, I'm Derick. And this is PHP internals news, a weekly podcast dedicated to demystifying the development of the PHP language. Hi, this is Episode 41. Today I'm talking with Stephen Wade about an RFC that he's produced, called __toArray(). Hi, Steven, would you please introduce yourself? Steven Wade 0:35 Hi, my name is Steven Wade. I'm a software engineer for a company called follow up boss. I've been using PHP since 2007. And I love the language. So I wanted to be able to give back to it with this RFC. Derick Rethans 0:48 What brought you to the point of introducing this RFC? Steven Wade 0:50 This is a feature that I've I've kind of wish would have been in the language for years, and talking with a few people who encouraged it's kind of like the rule of starting a user group right? If there's not one and you have the desire, then you're the person to do it. A few people encouraged and say: Well, why don't you go out and write it. So I've spent the last two years kind of trying to work up the courage or research it enough or make sure I write the RFC the proper way, and then also actually have the time to commit to writing it and following up with any of the discussions as well. Derick Rethans 1:18 Okay, so we've mentioned the word RFC a few times. But we haven't actually spoken about what it is about. What are you wanting to introduce into PHP? Steven Wade 1:25 I want to introduce a new magic method. The as he said, the name of the RFC is the __toArray(). And so the idea is that you can cast an object, if your class implements this method, just like it would toString(). If you cast it manually to array then that method will be called if it's implemented. Or as, as I said, in the RFC, array functions will it can it can automatically cast that if you're not using strict types. Derick Rethans 1:49 Oh, so only if it's not strictly typed. So if its weakly typed would call the toArray() method if the function's argument or type hint array. Steven Wade 1:58 Yes, and that is actually something that came up during the discussion period, which is something again, this is why we have discussions, right? Is to kind of solicit feedback on things we don't think about it, we may overlook or, and so someone did point out that it is, you know, it would not function that way, or you would not expect it to be automatically cast for you, if you're using strict types. Derick Rethans 2:17 Okay. Steven Wade 2:18 The RFC has been updated to reflect that as well. Derick Rethans 2:20 So now the RFC says it won't be automatically called just for type hint. Steven Wade 2:24 Correct. Derick Rethans 2:24 Not everybody is particularly fond of magic methods. What would you say about the criticism that introducing even more of them would be sort of counterproductive, because you'll end up not necessarily knowing what happens if you start calling a method, when you do a cost, for example. Steven Wade 2:38 The beauty of PHP is in its simplicity. And so adding more and more interfaces, kind of expands class declarations enforcement's and in my opinion, can lead to a lot of clutter. And so I think PHP is already very magical. And the precedent has been set to add more magic to it with 7.4 with the introduction of serialize and unserialize magic methods, and so for me it's just kind of a, it's a tool. I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing or a good thing. It's just another option for the developer to use. Derick Rethans 3:06 Two episodes ago, I spoke with Nicolas Grekas about a Stringable interface that he suggested to introduce, which is a little bit similar to sort of the casting with toArray(). And hence, do you think it would have make sense to have an __toArray() also happen if the class implements a interface with a typed function argument? Steven Wade 3:29 I think that would be two separate RFCs. I think the first one to kind of get it on par with what's what we have now in PHP would be to introduce the toArray(). And then a separate one would be if we wanted to follow suit with an arrayable interface. Derick Rethans 3:43 And which is the same thing that happens with the Stringable interface, right? We have had toString() for how many years, decades? But from what I understand, if you have a typed property "string", it would also call the toString() method when it's defined on an object that's being passed in, or do I misunderstand that, there are misremember that? Steven Wade 4:00 I haven't followed that one too closely. I've kind of been catching up on some of the discussion today. But and yeah, I don't know off the top of my head what that would do. Derick Rethans 4:07 I didn't mean with the ori.. with the newly suggested Stringable interface with adults we currently have. Steven Wade 4:12 I'm not sure how that would work. Derick Rethans 4:13 I don't know, either. That's what I'm asking you. Steven Wade 4:15 With the array and with the typed properties? That's a good question. That's again some feedback, we kind of need to that I need to think through Derick Rethans 4:21 Because I think it would make sense to at least behave the same and I don't particularly mind which way it goes. Me that's, that's a personal opinion here. Steven Wade 4:28 And that's a great idea I need to haven't played with 7.4 too much, I need to pull it down and try and just see what the behaviour of string is because that's the main goal of this is to try and just get this on a parity, functionality parity with with what's toString() will do. And so if that is how it handles it with typed properties and I would want to implement that as well. Derick Rethans 4:47 In a similar way. I don't also know what happens if if you have toString() available in a class and you pass it in as an argument that is typed as string. Steven Wade 4:54 Even though at least when my test was weak types, it will actually cast that for you. If you have that. String argument type hint, it will cast it and then that will be a copy. So it will actually just be the result of that cast to string. I do not think I think it throws an error if you have a strict type set. No, I think it'd be very similar, right. It's just how you want to use it in user land, you know, the __toArray() is you're going to you could cast it yourself ,or you can with weak types PHP could cast for you in the appropriate circumstances. If you want the same functionality. In some for now, you would need to call, you know, the __serialize() yourself with the toArray(). In the future, you could implement the toArray() and then your serialize could actually just cast this object to array, and then that should actually convert that for you. And then serialise will then return array so you're not duplicating how you want that object represented when it's an array. Derick Rethans 6:00 So the RFC mentions that when you do a print_r of person is called __toArray(). But that's not particularly a cast. So why would it do it here, but not for method arguments, for example? Steven Wade 6:11 That is a product of this being my first time and that was a mistake that was thankfully pointed out during the discussion period and has been corrected. Derick Rethans 6:19 I read this RFC a week or two ago or so. And I haven't.. I should have reread it this morning that. I did not so my apologies for not being fully up to date here. There's some array functions in PHP like sort() that operate on an array as a reference right? That can't particularly work if you first have to cast to an array, which is what your current RFC now just. I mean, toArray() only gets called when you cast to an array or when it's a weakly typed argument. But how would it work for methods or functions that accept an array by reference? Steven Wade 6:49 At least the way I proposed it, they would throw an error as it currently does. Again for my test and trying to keep this within parity with the toString. I don't believe there are many functions that will operate on toString on, on a string by reference, as there are with arrays. From what I can recall is that it would throw an error. If you try to operate by reference on an object that implements toString, it will throw an error. Derick Rethans 7:10 And it wouldn't just fall back to using an object because that'd be very strange behaviour in that case, I suppose. Steven Wade 7:15 Basically, if it's if it's not something that can be cast or converted to an array through this method, and it's just going to be the same functionality you have in current PHP, which will be throw an error. Derick Rethans 7:24 Going to go for the principle of least astonishment or something. Steven Wade 7:27 Yeah, I don't want to introduce too many changes to it. I just want to be able to cast. Derick Rethans 7:31 I think that is a great idea. Actually, I mean, the same thing I've spoken with Nikita about, that introducing features step by step makes it a lot easier for people to comprehend what you actually end up doing. And there's also less, less chance of people getting bogged down in liking a specific aspect of the RFC but not of the other RFC parts. And we end up not merging the whole thing with the sub part of it. Steven Wade 7:54 And that's why I was very purposeful and not including any kind of write. You write, you cannot write to a class that implements toArray(). You know, as you will with array ArrayObject, because that we have that for a reason. So this is different functionality, we just wanted to keep it small, and just have this little helper Derick Rethans 8:11 I read in the RFC, something called get_mangled_object_vars(), but I didn't quite understand what it was. Steven Wade 8:16 So that was actually a function introduced in 7.4, as a direct result of my original proposal trying to see what people thought in the internals and in the community of this feature. Sometime in spring, last year 2019, I began this discussion, and there was some initial feedback with folks saying that it would cause some breaking changes in their libraries or their code, because they are overloading the casting. Right now, if you cast an object, I guess you get insight into the object's internals without any side effects. And so I think that's how Symfony's var dumper works. And that's how they're able to display some of that information. So that was concern by introducing this, that functionality would break. And so to introduce a method that would give you the same benefits without overloading the casting, the get_mangled_object_vars() was introduced and accepted and implement in 7.4. Derick Rethans 9:04 And that returns the object properties with their special characters in place. Because PHP internally, if you have a private method, the name for both methods and property is done by doing a null character, the name of the class, a null character then the property name. So that's what that would return, I suppose. Steven Wade 9:22 I believe so. Derick Rethans 9:22 I ran into a similar issue in Xdebug, because in some cases, you want to call get_debug_info, which is what people implement for getting debug info for their objects. But in other cases, you don't want to do it because you want to see everything that happens internally, or you want to see all the properties that exist. So there's kind of a tricky one. And I think at some point with toArray also happening, I might actually end up adding the output of both toArray() and get_debug_info separate sort of fake properties into the Xdebug output. But of course that only works if toArray() has no side effects. I don't think there's any way of preventing that in the toArray method that you can now implement that it doesn't change any information in normal properties, for example, right? Steven Wade 10:12 And that's kind of some of the internals of it that I'm not fully familiar with. With it, I'm hoping to kind of, you know, the discussion period will help eliminate some of that. Derick Rethans 10:20 I don't think you'd be able to actually. Steven Wade 10:22 Just recently, we were able to throw an exception from the toString. I don't know if you can actually do any kind of operations, write operations on the object within the toString? I do? That's a good question. And I do look that up. And whatever that behaviour is, we'd want to mimic here as well. Derick Rethans 10:34 I believe you can. It's normal PHP code, right? And if you don't want to do it, you need to clone it first, which is something you could choose as an implementation, right? You could first clone the class and then call the toArray method on the cloned object. I don't think we have any protection for that. The RFC is currently in the discussion phase. At the time of recording, we're talking about the discussion period. When I sort of thinking of ending that and going for vote? Steven Wade 10:58 I think this is actually going to be probably a longer period of discussion. And I think most RFC is most fleshed out just because of the nature of it. I am a full time employee full time, father, husband, and also student, as well. And so I don't have a lot of time to do this. And I want to do it right. I want to be able to respond to this. And so the discussion opened up a week ago, and this morning is the first time I've had to be able to respond to that and update the RFC. And so I because I really care about this and would love this feature to go in. I want to continue to solicit discussion and advice and questions and to be able to answer them all and do that. So however long it takes. Ideally, I would love it to be closed, voted on, accepted and implemented in time to be able to get in for the feature freeze for 8.0. Derick Rethans 11:40 For that you have about four months. Would you have anything else to add that I forgot? Or you want to add that you think it's interesting to know about this RFC? Steven Wade 11:50 Yeah, the only thing I would add is I've seen discussion, someone posted the RFC on Reddit and I've seen discussions with people like it, people hate it. They want to move one way or the other again, it's just It's a small feature, it's a helper. It's a tool that you can use. Is it perfect? No. Is it going to satisfy everybody? No. You've got the people who are want more functional and procedural you got people who want more OOP. I think it's just another helpful tool that could be in your tool belt. If you use it great. If you don't, you don't have to touch it. Derick Rethans 12:19 Very well. Thank you, Steven, for taking the time to talk to me this afternoon. I'm looking forwards on this coming to vote at some point. Steven Wade 12:27 Thank you for having me on the show. And let me explain the purpose and the reasoning behind this RFC. And thank you very much for giving a voice to those looking to improve the language. Derick Rethans 12:35 You're most welcome. Thanks for listening to this instalment of PHP internals news, the weekly podcast dedicated to demystifying the development of the PHP language. I maintain a Patreon account for supporters of this podcast, as well as the Xdebug debugging tool. You can sign up for Patreon at https://drck.me/patreon. If you have comments or suggestions feel free to email them to derick@phpinternals.news. Thank you for listening and I'll see you next week. Show Notes RFC: __toArray() Credits Music: Chipper Doodle v2 — Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) — Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

8 years ago a 22 year old Chloe Hogan was on her way to work at 5.30am one morning. She was gearing up for her second marathon a few weeks out and heading to the gym where she was a PT but disaster struck. An accident, a major one and Chloe was left with a massive brain injury. She lay in a coma for weeks, the Doctors after 19 days telling the family to turn off life support, that there was no hope. 4 days later she awoke and proved them all wrong. But the damage was massive and there wasn't much left of their beautiful daughter. But Brian is a fighter and a feisty Dad who wasn't willing to give up on his beautiful girl so he started researching and working. He ignored all the negative naysayers and powered through years of hard grind, always believing, always looking for the next level and slowly inch by hard won inch they bought Chloe back.  After 4 years they discovered Hyperbaric oxygen therapy, Chloe was still completely wheelchair bound, could only speak very slowly, and was incontinent. After 20 treatments the incontinence was gone, Brian did more sessions with her, another 165 to be exact and slowly combined with thousands of hours of physio, a change in diet and a never say die attitude Chloe got better and better. Now 8 years into their journey Chloe surprised her parents for Xmas with the greatest gift on earth, she took her first steps completely unaided.   Chloes story is outlined in my new book "Relentless" due out on the 11th of March. This book is about bringing my Mother Isobel back after a major aneurysm and stroke left her like a baby and she, like Chloe has clawed her way back. Against all odds and against all the medical professionals prognoses.   You can pre order "Relentless" right now at   https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless and if you grab it right now (before the 1st of February 2020) you will get free access to my MINDSETu online mental toughness ecourse.  Valued at $275.  So hurry over and pre order your copy right now.   To Watch Chloes feature story on TVNZ's 7 Sharp program go here: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10162529755070114&id=552205113&sfnsn=mo   and reach out to Chloe on Facebook at Chloe M S Hogan.   We would like to thank the sponsors for this show  www.vielight.com Makers of Photobiomodulation devices that stimulate the brains mitocondria, the power houses of your brains energy, through infrared light to optimise your brain function.  To get 10% off your order use the code: TAMATI at www.vielight.com     We would like to thank our sponsors:     For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com    For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runningpage/ Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics/ Get The User Manual For Your Specific Genes Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? Discover the social interactions that will energize you and uncover your natural gifts and talents. These are just some of the questions you'll uncover the answers to in the Lisa Tamati Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There's a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the "future of personalized health", as it unlocks the user manual you'll wish you'd been born with!  No more guesswork. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyze body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit:  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/mindsetuniversity/ Develop mental strength, emotional resilience, leadership skills and a never quit mentality - Helping you to reach your full potential and break free of those limiting beliefs.    For Lisa's free weekly Podcast "Pushing the Limits" subscribe on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or visit the website  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/podcast/   Transcript of the Podcast:    Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa [inaudible], brought to you by Lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:13) If your brain is not function at its best, then check out the team at vielight.com. Vielight producers photo biomodulation devices. Your brain function depends largely on the health of the energy sources of the brain cells, the mitochondria. Now research has shown that stimulating your brain with near infrared light revitalizes mitochondria. I use these devices daily for both my own optimal brain function and to slow age-related decline and also for my mom's brain rehabilitation after her aneurysm in stroke. So check out what the team at Vielight like, do it and use the code Tamati. That's T A M A T I at checkout to get a 10% discount on any of the devices. Speaker 3: (00:59) Hi everybody, Lisa Thomas to hear it pushing the limits. And today I have a very special couple of guests with me, Brian Hogan and Chloe Hogan all way from Oakland. Hi guys. How you doing? Good. Thanks. Good morning Lisa. We've had a little bit of technical troubles trying to get you on here, but we've worked it out. So now I have, this is a very special story guys that I wanted to share with you, the audience because Conway's had an incredible difficult journey and who did in a family. And I wanted to shoot a little bit of the story because it sort of parallels a little bit. And so I'm going to start with you. Brian, we what actually happened to Chloe? Can you take us back eight years ago. Speaker 4: (01:49) Okay. Well in the morning of the 22nd her birthday, like she left to go to work at around five 30 in the morning and when about full bath rate case down the road, she for some unknown reason the stage well, what we want you to get or not chase way up to miss something on the road. There was a funny morning. Speaker 3: (02:10) Yup. Speaker 4: (02:11) Yeah, she lost control of the car and slammed passenger side on a heavy concrete pap on. She sustained a traumatic brain injury. Fortunately, there was a, a chromo theater nurse. Well, living within steady. Yeah. 30 meters of the crash. Yeah. It has been, came out sort of situation called the called his wife came out and she stabilized Slatery way stabilized, got a breathing soon after that. Somebody had run a very one of my mum and the ACE arrived and then the ambulance arrived and she was taken to Middlemore hospital. Yeah, no, we were there and it's seven o'clock in the morning, we're gonna knock on our door and our street placements, standing here and of course you get to wonder what this is all about. You think the worst and it was the worst or most and they say cloud and being involved in an accident and that she was very serious. Speaker 4: (03:08) Accident was Neha terminology. A great 9. And right team is a fatality, so like currently offers to drive us through the middle more, which they did at great speed. And we arrived to fund how he had been stabilized in the hospital and that she was totally unconscious. Of course it was hooked up to all sorts of houses and gadgets. And then they then we were told that they didn't have the, the equipment to continue the treatment there she needed through the engine and eventually medical intervention. So put it in an ambulance. And again, we following her, rushed through to walk hospital where she went into intensive care and wow. Yeah. So it was quite a day I had a morning. Speaker 3: (03:56) Yes. Yeah. So it was, and so Chloe was only 22 years old. Major brain injury. So she's hanging on for dear life. She's in the hospital. Of course. Clara, you won't remember any of this. Nothing. Thank goodness. That's a really good thing. So Brian, I know that then it was touch and go for a fairly long time. Chloe was in a coma and the ICU unit what was that time in your life like? Speaker 4: (04:27) Well, I guess that first two or three days you are just a sideline, I observed that really, you couldn't do anything. We were totally numb, totally numb, or it was like an out of body experience. You know, the way we can tell the truth is going to poke through and tell that she was going to die really new. So it was a time of great concern and she was blissfully sleeping. Thank goodness. Yes, I was sick. Mmm. But anyway, I think on the third day Dr. Stevens straight cold us coordinating with the family and set the stage, there was a a high likelihood that she wouldn't die. It's a big paper, a long journey and go with it right at the store. Speaker 3: (05:18) So I know that she was in coma for I think 23 days, but a day like 19 or something, they said to you, you might have to turn off the life support. Speaker 4: (05:27) That's correct. That's correct. She was transferred to high to begin and see after, okay. A week out of 'em [inaudible] and after, I think it was the 19th day or the 20th day, real cold to a meeting with them seeking you register on a high dependency ward, Hey saved to S there is no chance Chi [inaudible] out of her coma. Injuries are too severe and you probably the family to consider the alternatives, which was withdrawal of life support. And I pushed a document or pamphlet across the [inaudible] devastated. Speaker 3: (06:08) You were devastated and you actually refused and you're Brian, we've thought about it. Of course you're has five runs. So yeah, you, you basically you, you know, it came to be that you lifted the life support on and thank God you did. Is that what happened? Speaker 4: (06:35) Well, in it to the little no document on the wall that says they can't, that's where they are intervention. You know, I'm on the ward. You lost it all as your rights. Yes. Brilliant. And so that was it. And everyone went away pretty safe. But anyway, just normal for Kali on the . Speaker 3: (06:58) 22 days she woke up, she woke up just four days later and I were expecting her to, you know, not, not wake up even at all. This is pretty frightening though, Brian. If you think about it, like how many times has life support been tuned off when it didn't need to be tuned off? Yeah, yeah. Certainly not three weeks on and to the drama. I remember with my mom, I was, you know, given non resuscitation orders to sign and I wasn't as polite as you just saying. No, I use some stronger language. It wasn't that way. Always still going there. And you know, so after Callie woke up, of course she had massive brain damage. And Chloe, what is the very first memories that you have? How many months passed or you know, your dad will be able to help you here, but how many months before you can actually remember anything? The first thing I remember was the patient. Okay. So you have actual little bits of memory of actually in the, in the hospital, so okay. No, and their rehab. The rehab. Okay. So after hospital. Speaker 4: (08:25) Yeah. Especially as an open book or hospital for two months to Kevin IBI, which was out in route around Nelly and yeah, so that was probably four months after accident before she has that numeric. Speaker 3: (08:41) Wow. And that was the very first one. Now the cloud we have any any movement, any, any speech, any memory of you at all when she, you know, after a couple of months or was she pretty much you know, non functioning Speaker 4: (08:59) Well at open hospital once well she had an issue with biting her tone. Yeah. We all them. So they had to end up vein was gadgets to stop it tongue movement, which was very divisive and terrible. So she had shaved an amount, the must gadgets stuck in the mouth and she had a trunk. Yeah. And she has had a pig on to tell me to be fade. Sorry. She goes, Oh, what up. So even though she had woken up, she had no real response. We couldn't, she couldn't talk. She could say us. And she made, she'd made eye contact. Yeah. The the left side of her body wasn't functioning, so she couldn't see out the left side. And so that will took probably six months to come back slowly. Speaker 3: (09:57) Then we came back. Okay, Speaker 4: (10:00) Well forget, say what, say you on a high rot side, but hang on. Oh God, that ran the wrong way. My left and right. She could say, say on her right side and left side wasn't functioning. So she couldn't say, Hey, we'll stop. Stop. But then anyway, they, it's but now we're getting after the two months when it was obviously she was stabilized and she was reactive. And little by little like pulled some of these troops and things out. But you're so stuck with us math thing. But once the truck and that came out and I was there on the, not a senior nurse sick, well I think she can cope what ourselves and we're going to remove. So she moved there and they pulled them out, I think to me, his daddy. Speaker 3: (10:59) Oh, then it might give so she remember Jude, she had obviously some functions and some memory still there. No really good sign because I'm early on in the pace, you know, it's pretty hard not, you know, you don't know. I know with mum I didn't know whether she knew who I was and what I was or anything. And Tony, you've got a very, very special mum and dad, haven't you? Yep. So you've been now in this journey for eight years and from that time that you woke up from the injury and then that whole time you've been working really, really hard and your heart and your appearance and your family been working really, really hard to bring you back. How hard is this journey been for you and what, what does it mean? Like terrible. Yeah. So hard. Tell me some of the worst things that you've been through. Like at the very beginning you obviously couldn't control anything in your body at all. Speaker 4: (12:04) No. I don't think so. Well she had 'em up a little reasonable. Not reasonable, but okay. Up. I've I've actually, but she had, you know, we had to help feed her every meal, months, probably six months. Like to go back to one thing and it might, your audience might be interested that and for others going through this, you know, I did as much research as possible. Everything. Dr Google is probably really wonderful. Yeah. And one of the other things on that that I found out was stimulation was important no matter what. So while she goes and well while she was in and and not and high dependency, she I used to sing to her. Speaker 3: (13:08) Okay. Speaker 4: (13:09) And I also used the read to this, I agree to a book laugh out loud so she could hear it, but every time I did that end, even my staying here hat right wig down. So she was selling it for around 90 to a hundred beats per minute hot. Right. Well it had dropped her 70 almost every time. So she was getting it. She was, she was [inaudible] and stimulating and that suddenly, you know, for folks that are in the same situation, they might like to try that. There was a young guy at IBO who was a boxer and he sustained a traumatic brain injury in the prefab and his training and he was almost totally climatized. So his mother was, they regulate but wouldn't, she wasn't nice gun sit with him. And I talked to him about boxing and gosh, you just, yeah. You could say he'd smile and he'd give me . Mmm. Your responsible. Sorry. Can I just, as I said, never give up and try it. I was like this possible, but know simulation on happiness. Is it great? Mmm. Speaker 3: (14:23) And I think it's really important that people treat them as if they are the or O'Brian. Don't talk to them as a fan, not reasons or over them. That's what I found very, very frustrating. In the early days, did you find that like they would talk with a car? We didn't exist. Speaker 4: (14:41) Yeah. Do you let the medical staff talk to, talk over her as like when you're in hospital? But I might've pissed no, and I made them talk to her and address that. Ava, she was our sponsor. We just, we just stuck with it. We're not gonna give out. Speaker 3: (15:04) Yeah. And, and giving people that respect, even though they can't respond, is very, very important for anybody who has disabilities or anybody who can't communicate or has had a stroke or brain injury, you know, always give them the full respect that you'd give anybody else and talk to them about this situation. You know, I find that really, really offensive when people don't do that, even though they can't respond. Yeah, you, you went to dr Google. That's exactly what I did. I went like hardcore researching every thing in the universe on brain injury. And I know like for the listeners, Brian and I connected a few years down the track with Curry and actually I was probably half a year in or a year and with mom's rehab when we connected, I think, and you rang me one day about hyperbaric oxygen therapy and see what I, what I thought about that. I think you'd, yeah. Tell us a little bit about that journey cause that happened already. That was already four years in or so to two colleagues rehab, is that right? Speaker 4: (16:07) Yeah, it was it. Well, almost daily diary, as I said to medical staff, you know, how bout hyperbaric oxygen treatment. And so every single person, every single metal comparison I spoke to gave him no joy at all. Don't know anything about that. That's not proven. It's a hurry. But I, you know, I played, I played in the open rugby up hydrocod color dry for seniors and we played Navy and I took the bait fuck shelf it before it was no blood. Speaker 3: (16:40) Was almost an old black. I'm sure he was glowing Speaker 4: (16:47) That vaccines may or the boys go and you know, we're talking after the guy and mother boys go into the, into the decompression chamber, which I had on the night device, but the next day after the game, and I said, you could watch bruises disappear now that was when I was about 19 or 20. So it was a hell of a year long, long time ago. But that sort of stuck with me. So one of the early things I thought about or have have hyperbaric Novia with it and I, I sort of gave up on it because we got so much negativity from it. Speaker 4: (17:24) But anyway we, she hadn't had an operation, a middle matter hospital to correct her foot. So while we're sitting on the there for bed awakened and I was reading books like really got stuck into this hyperbaric and I found this chamber that's private chamber in, the seven mountain Nelson. And so that was approximately four years. Oh, on this journey. Did we rent them out to her? And Jose, actually, if there's someone who's down the call, I was going through hopper. Greg did, I rang you or she had 2020 treatments of MACRA the first time. And within a week of coming away she'd be, she'd be, she got control of about, so she was before years there was incontinent, a nappy for four years. And and so that, that was just a huge step. Now there was nothing else different than we did the fixed date. Speaker 3: (18:27) So this is 4 years. I want people to listen. Keep it. This is four years into the rehabilitation cause a lot of people have said to me, it's too late. I had a stroke five years ago or 10 years ago. It's now used to be doing that for years after the event. 20 sessions. And you've already got a major, major breakthrough. This might not sound major, but as it is, as both of us and all of us have gone through, being in consonants is major and it's not fun. It's not fun as it Chloe and after 20 treatments to get control, that means that part of the brain is coming back online. That's what that is. And then you, you had to go all the way to map or, so there's a, there's a a medical hyperbaric facility down in map or a Nelson, which I think is unfortunately closing if it hasn't already close his it, Brian. Speaker 4: (19:20) Ah, yeah, it's on the, in the process of closing down, but the much, Oh, absolute tragedy, you know, saying there's so much pressure from people who know about it. So it starts trickling along, but it'll eventually closed. I imagine by the end of this year, Speaker 3: (19:40) If we had, if we had lots of money, we'd go and buy it and get it up and running again. And no. So dr Tim are, is the, is the, is the doctor down there? He was in charge of the costume, a hyperbaric facility before he went in private. Now hyperbaric is a hugely beneficial, and then if you're listening to this guys, he was a, one of the world's leading experts on this podcast over two years ago now, Dr. Scott Scheer, who she has insights and go back and look up and I'll put it in the show notes, the link to that episode because this is really powerful. You did that 20 sessions and then you went back again and this, each time you're taking Kali right down to Nelson, you're staying, living down DHEA, which is a hell of a sacrifice day, isn't it? Speaker 4: (20:24) Oh yeah, I see it. You want to have a holiday? I got him out. Poets. Speaker 3: (20:29) It's a lovely place. But in karma you had to go in this chamber every day pretty much every day. Apart from weekends, weekends I got to go shopping. She's an expensive daughter, isn't she? So how many sessions did you end up having a map or Brian? Speaker 4: (20:52) 195, I think. Speaker 3: (20:54) 95 of the medical grade hyperbaric treatments in as she progressed. What were the things that you saw come back online? Cause when I met she was fully in a wheelchair, unable to stand or anything like that. What happened over there? 185 sessions. There's a lot of sessions, but that's, it's nothing when you compared to a lifetime. Speaker 4: (21:18) Oh yeah. Like it was well it just changed everything. She, she gained weight gain control of her alum. So her feet, you know, the walking out of it, she doesn't and I, I'm a high Walker. Speaker 3: (21:39) Yep. Yep, yep. Speaker 4: (21:40) And she has to have somebody in front of it pulling in somebody behind my conception 40th and the tray. That's as good as she had got. After half the Brack, she was able to walk to the gutter frame and assisted, you know, over a period of talking to them while we were down there. So her fake placement there was a first thing I noticed was probably after 40 stations she could manage her feet and place them in the right place instead of getting them 10 without. So then she was stable on like other friends. So it didn't make a person in front of the person to be healthy. And from that she's going on, she entering the Walker and now she's four, she's walking through and we'll link to basketball court. Speaker 3: (22:27) Wow. Probably tell you you were on television recently. We'd show because it was a Christmas miracle that you gave to your dad. What did, what did you do? May and Jane organized, did they own seven shop? Oh, I wanted to be on TV. Hey, curious, why not? And you showed them and this buddy you showed your dad and your mom, you for the first time taking some steps, is that right? Yeah. And I caught it on camera. I'll put the link to that guy, that video. Guys, these are copies for your steps. Now this is after 195 hyperbaric sessions, thousands of hours of physio therapy. Goodness knows what else you've done as well, Brian, for everything you've done, everything under the sun, pretty much. If someone sees this weird musical therapy, have you stuck? I've got lasers that I stick up mom's nose. I've done everything possible. Speaker 3: (23:33) Yeah, I've still got that. I actually think it's great. You know, in other words, we didn't just, both of us approach this with try everything. If it's risky, try it. And if it's risky, we'll weigh up the risks and we'll have a go at it and research like how, and take responsibility. Don't wait for the medical professionals to give you the go ahead. Don't wait for the green light for hyperbaric therapy. You know, this isn't an advert for five very clear free, but it is a very powerful therapy if you have enough sessions. And it's just an absolute travesty that Maffra is perhaps closing because the regulations around the just terrific. That made it very, very difficult from what I hear for dr terms to function and you leave are these stories. My mum has had 250, half of Barrick sessions. I ended up buying a, what they called a mild hyperbaric chamber, which is not as good as the one in Maffra, but it was the best that we could do. I had the first 53 sessions with you in a, in a proper, if you want to call it then a proper chamber. But it was through a dive company and it was, you know, taken off and we couldn't use it anymore. And I created that would giving me enough brain back of mom's brain that I could then teach you to walk and to do the things. And the same would have been with you I Brian with the, with the, with the policies coming back. Speaker 4: (25:05) Oh yeah, absolutely. And I like fake placements, quite important now with ums and she's got control of them. And I put that down to hyperbaric because nothing else is, well, she's had lots and lots and lots, lots and stuff. But I suppose that's been one of the pickiest parts of the puzzle and putting it back together. Speaker 3: (25:32) It's the key of it because it ha so what hyper hyperbaric does people is it hyper oxygenates your your body. So you're getting about seven times the amount of oxygen into the body and it's compressing the oxygen molecules so that it can actually pass through the blood brain barrier to the parts of the brain that are damaged but not deed. So the deed pats were unable to bring back. But typically around the deep parts of tissue there is what they call way ischemic penumbra and these are cells that are alive but they're not functioning. And these are the ones that we can hopefully target with hyperbaric and bring back. It also hits the inflammation pathways in the brain and in the body. And it also helps produce more STEM cells and all of these things help the body to repair it. So it's not a quick fix. Speaker 3: (26:18) It's something that you need to have a lot of sessions in. But as you can see with probably after four years of not getting very far at all and then having these 185 sessions over the period of, I don't know, a year and a half, two years, she's now walking that is massive. She now has control over her bowels and 40 in control over a hell of a lot more. Whose features also improved greatly, hasn't it? Karma. You're talking pretty now? Cause when I, when I meet slow, yeah. I think when I met you it was quite slow. It was. It was, and that's a huge difference. So it's a hugely powerful and you've got your whole life ahead. You're a super young lady and I know that you've got your 30th birthday coming up. Is that right? You're invited. Oh, I'm invited. It's fantastic. Speaker 3: (27:09) I'll try and get to that point. And so Chloe's dad and I have had sort of exchanged notes along the road, however we, Brian and given each other tips, some trucks of what we've learned along the way. And this has been really a multipronged approach. It's not just the one thing, a huge part of it has been hyperbaric, but it's also thousands of hours and the therapists and training and retraining the mind. It's having the guts and the determination like if Brian wasn't such a feisty, don't take any shirts person who is going to push through every barrier and if I wasn't the same then I don't think mum or Chloe would we be with AR. And by the same token, Chloe and mum are also identical and that they are fighters. They are people that persist that resilient. The positivity that Callie brings to this really difficult journey is nothing short of mind blowing. I've been absolutely astounded to watch you over the last few years on how you've just fought your, your differently. A chip off the old block, aren't you daughter? Speaker 3: (28:23) I have lots of grit. Exactly. So call me. You are just a couple of weeks away from running your first marathon when the accident happened. Day one. So I forgot. I forgot. You'd already need the one. Sorry. I was going to do it and then you want to smash that toe. I'll tell you what though, that dream is still alive in you, isn't it? To athlete again, get out there and race and be in a, in a, in a racing, you've actually done a fiveK , is that right? Yeah. Fun run. And you did it on your, your frame at that time. Zimmer frame funding. Yeah. Speaker 4: (29:14) She doesn't, well, yeah, I guess because it, but yeah, she doesn't walk. Oh by Southwest. We have lots of people around helping her. Oh, and encourage her, right. Very steep that she needed. Speaker 3: (29:30) Yeah. That's insane. That is so amazing. Chloe, you've got mum, I'm up to two Ks with mum. The five K's yet. And story in Brian's story is in my new book, which is coming out in match called relentless. And it's, it's another example of an incredible comeback story. And that's why I was really keen to share this. And Brian is hopefully gonna write the book one day and Brian and chloe, you're gonna get the bums into here and share this insight as well. Even though writing a book is a mission. I hope so because this is an incredible story, Callie and it's not finished yet and she's still got a week wise to go on on. Definitely to get full independence. Ron, do you think Chloe will ever reach full, full independence again and be able to no flat on her own or, or live in a house with, with flatmates and they talked to them. Speaker 4: (30:28) Oh, without a doubt. But they have a death. Speaker 3: (30:30) Really? That's amazing. So at the moment you with mum and dad? Yeah. Yeah. And yet are you sick and mum and dad, do you want your own independence? He goes away sometimes. So it's okay. It's just you and ma and then you girls go shopping, but more on spend. Spend some more money there. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't really like shopping. They keep a grip on it. They'll say, Oh, hype site. So I call it. What are the next steps in your journey? What are you working on at the moment? Because you're always working on something. Hey. Yeah. To be able to walk without the Walker. Oh, like a long period of time. Yep. Yep. And what are the things that she's struggling with Brian in that respects as a balance or spatial awareness or con coordinating your face and things. Don't Speaker 4: (31:28) A balance really chase get, you know, like every day she gets better at it. You're like, we, we have been away to Tyro since Christmas or so before Christmas. And even I notice even though we're here all the time with it, even I know she can climb the stairs and stairs now with minimal assistance, whereas at Christmas it was, you know, you have to keep a class on I, but she can do it all by herself. Now just with my mind, Speaker 3: (32:00) Are you using functional neurology? That's something that I'd highly recommend you go out and start looking into if you haven't to Willy, which is using a, so doing things like with your eyes balancing, you know, different eye exercises that really helped me with non, with your facial awareness and who balance stuff. So if you, if you, are you doing that at all with, with PI? Speaker 4: (32:20) Yeah. maybe they're not that I'm aware of. Exactly. If you could save me that. Speaker 3: (32:26) Yeah, I'll send you a couple of videos. I'm in links to doctors who, who teach this online. I'd also recommend you go to a good car, Frank, cause it knows about functional neurology or I'm not sure if there's up in Oakland or not, but and just get things looked at it from that perspective because adjusting the bet can also help with I've got mum at the chiropractor at the moment, we're trying to straighten out. It's fine. Of course things are going a little bit skew with after four years of being, you know, leaned over on one side and that can help with neurological function as well. So it's just say people like it's really important to share these insights and information with each other cause we're still learning, we're still growing, we're moving forward. And each time you come, you take a step forward, you actually come up against a new obstacle. I've found a Braun, there's something that, some new place that you haven't thought about. A new, a new level, a new deal sort of thing. Speaker 4: (33:19) Yeah. You know, like the other thing that I think is important is as I'm assessing the notes that you know, the right to make a significant difference as well. I think Speaker 3: (33:33) The right food for our brain is really, really important. And having good high fats, good Omega threes, really important. I have a whole regime of different supplements that I also have mum on. And we also do something called epigenetic testing. And I got into this Brian, it looks because it looks at your gene genetic makeup and how they're expressing now and gives the exact right diet for that person's genes. So it'd be something that we Speaker 4: (34:02) Yeah, for sure. I like look at them. Speaker 3: (34:07) Yeah. Cause I think what, what, what the key takeaway from this guys is obviously hyperbarics really important. Second is resilience in fight in persistence and not giving up in certainly having the support of a wonderful family or friends or people that can help anyone going through a drama like this and being resilient and then also the right diet and taking a really multipronged approach. Not just relying on drugs, not relying on just physio. It's not enough. It's not enough. It's a part of the puzzle, but it's, it's not, it's not enough for brain injury, but there is a way back and there is quality of life. You know, Chloe, you're pretty happy lighting it nowadays that you, you always seem to be jetting around the place and having all travel. You love travel, you've got a wonderful family. You're moving again, you're walking in, you're going somewhere, you've got your job, sort of sit for the next couple of years. What do you get yourself back to? More independence and, but near as quality of life and nearest happiness. Fear and it sounds, yeah, it's an amazing story guys. Brian, are there any last words or closing any last words that you want to encourage people who might be going through hardships? It doesn't even need to be brain injury, but just hard times. Speaker 4: (35:23) Well, I, you know, I, my bag disappointment through or laser as a, a number of the professionals just don't get it. And you know, like a lot, probably more than 50% of the you know, they use psychologists if you like. Have said in front of Chloe, you'll never walk again. You've got unrealistic expectations to hit face. And some of them say, you know, you'll never have you know, never have a pattern in your life and you got any issue and you're going to get [inaudible] don't get used to it. That's, that's how it's going to be. The phone a lot. And I've got so angry and in front of people, I never quite lose it, but I felt like Speaker 3: (36:21) A few times and my big brother have lost it toe a few times. Speaker 4: (36:27) Yeah. And it's just stupid. They put themselves up as so called experts and they, yeah, I know nothing for those facts. We just kept them. You don't want to know anything about them. I've tried them in the door. That's it. We're not coming back. We keep looking and, and we've had some absolutely wonderful caregivers or professionals that are help Chi and, and an event like I, we keep changing providers cause he goes to speech therapists almost every two or three years until we find the right one. But they run out of ideas. They run out of experience and colleagues continue to improve. So therefore some of them you get to a stage where they've topped out, I don't know any more and can't take it to the next stage. Or the challenge is to find the next person who can take it to the next day. And we've been relentless at that nonsense and we look constantly for people that can help. And we just kept the negative ones there immediately. Non-Native might, I don't know. And I just really totally surprises me how how these people lie and I still operate and I just wonder how many people get discouraged by that and just accept it. We're, you know, we document, Speaker 3: (37:52) No, we don't. And, and, and we've, you know, like the thing is like, we're feisty fighters. We, we not people that give up and how many people go under the bus who don't have feisty daughters or fathers or people that will help them. I had times at the hospital where, like in front of my mum, I remember vividly, we had a, we were finally got into a physio program and of course she wasn't ICC like you guys. So we didn't get a lot of support. And I finally got her into a physio program after a year and we did this training with him, which was excellent. And he preceded, I could have done more in my, you know, when lunch break than they did. And at the end of the six weeks, they'd done all these tests with here and they'd talk to her like she was an idiot. Speaker 3: (38:35) And we were in this panel that we had to present the senior, that we were allowed to stay in the program. And we were taken into this room and I said to her, look, Isabel is below the level of the worst dementia patient we've seen. There is excellently no hope. She will never do anything again. We not going to continue in the program and this is in front of my mum. Right. And, and I just turned around to my mum and I said how does it make you feel mum? And she said, well, I was feeling quite empowered until I heard that, that I'm below the level of dementia patient now I'm absolutely depressed and I don't know what to think. And the mouths dropped open. They have never heard her speak a full sentence because that talked down to her, realized she had an intelligence via that they, they had ignored. And these are the professionals, the doctors, they send the fuzzier therapists and you know, I'm not saying that all like that from pig. God, they're not complete idiots. We told them to stop the program. Speaker 3: (39:42) I bet you've seen hates cause I've seen hates and in people who had told me, even, you know, good physios who would come to the end of their abilities, who told me you won't get any more rubbish. Yeah. And you can imagine when you've got a 78 year old how they're even more so, because they're like, she's 78. What do you want? You know, made it go, no, she's my mum and I'm going to fight and I wanted to live to 120, you know, then my attitude and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not happy with where we're at it, I'm very, I'm glad we're here but I want more and Callie wants more. We keep looking for the next layer of people that can help us and that's why we keep exchanging ideas and I've got a couple for Chloe to look into. So Speaker 4: (40:36) Yeah, I guess that that was really my point. I think just don't give up and when you get a divorce that you don't think is right, seek a second opinion or just go elsewhere and I just tell them out. They're not talking to our my niece has just qualified as a medical doctor and I said to her, she was here just over Christmas period. Said to her, what you know, what did they teach your bed? Hyperbaric oxygen treatment. And she said nothing. Nothing, absolutely nothing. Absolutely stupid as that I've been back works for almost, even though I dislocated my shoulder playing rugby years and years ago. And when they told me what I need a shoulder reconstruction thought and I was functioning okay. But I couldn't wash my hair with my left. Well wash it with my right. But so I put up with that for years and years and after that first 20 treatments, Speaker 3: (41:35) Yeah. Wow. What's flowing? No question. That there's no growth like crazy me. It does. We don't ask Dr. Scott share who was on this you know, earlier this, this podcast he said to me, if we can get three treatments, if anybody who's had a heart attack or stroke within a few days we can have the mortality. Right. And I see, why the hell is this not an every single ICU in the world. And you see, because there's no money to be made in it. He said that I'm a doctor, this is not from [inaudible] the company behind it, the clinical trials, they won't do anything cause you can't patient oxygen and they can't make money out of it. And unfortunately that is the general state of our health system. It's very pharmacological based and it's very surgery based. And while that brilliant surgery and the brilliant at those parts of the puzzle, they're not good when it comes to chronic health management and they're no good when it comes to a situation like this. And that's why, you know, I know this is controversial, unnoticeable piss some people off, but this is our experience and it needs to be shared because there's a hundred other people that will back up what we're saying a thousand other people. Yeah. Interesting enough. Was the next a customer in the door, was that an American lady? And we're talking about, she said, well, funnily enough, almost every new mall would you go on until you are in the States nowadays as a wellness clinic. Speaker 3: (43:33) There you go. Yeah, it's growing and, and, and the popping up. We'll have New Zealand. I opened the clinic here with a, what they call a mild hyperbaric facility with, so we can't afford the big ones with the big medical grade, but they are justice just about as good, not quite as good, but it just about as good, they don't have a hundred percent oxygen and these are popping up all over the country. So you guys, if you want to find out about it, this is not just for people with brain injuries. This is for people who want an anti aging. Good for you, for athletes. This is good for healing wounds. This is absolutely proven stuff. And there is clinical trials. I have a season. It is a powerful and by the same token, there's a hundred other Sierra pays or biohacking or whatever you want to call it, stuff out there that is worth looking into. Speaker 3: (44:21) We can't give recommendations for everything there is, but there's a hell of a lot that I've tried. And all combined together. Nope. Do the restaurant, do the risk assessment yourself. And if you think it's for you, go for it. And don't be told what you can and you can't do. And you know, just keep powering on clothing. Brian, you've been fantastic today. Thank you so much for sharing your story. It's really awesome. It's so important Chloe, that you get out there and you tell people this journey that you've been on, there's a reason why you've been through this. We've got to tune it into a positive, even though it's been health, you and your family. This is why the book for me is important to get it out there, to share these insights so that other people don't have to have it as hard as we did. Speaker 3: (45:11) And if we can help people then it's great. So if anybody wants to reach out to calling weaker, they find you guys your famous snare Chloe. Yeah, my Danny that drew runnings, my Facebook page, my journey back to running Facebook. So clubby Hogan on Facebook and I can find you the year under Chloe Hogan. That be right. Chloe is Hogan. Okay. Chloe, Ms. Hogan, what a complicated name you've got. Wow. That is very fancy. So fire was my granddad. Oh wow. That's a pretty cool name. So Chloe, Amy's Hogan, if anyone wants to reach out to Corey, I'm sure she'd love to hear from you. If anyone wants to reach out to me or to Brian, please let us know. You can email me and I can pass any messages on. If you've got any questions. Thank you very much guys for sharing your story. We've got to get it out there more. It's an absolutely amazing story and you and mum, Chloe are both rock stars, so thanks though. Thanks Lisa! Speaker 2: (46:20) We're pushing the limits this week. I hope that that was really interesting for you and you took some really strong takeaways from that interview with Brian and Chloe. It's been a, an amazing to watch her journey over the last few years parallel to my mums and some of the insights that we've both gained a really along the same path. So I hope you'll take heat of some of the notes that we talk. I just wanted to remind you to hop on over to our website. If you want to check out our programs. We've got three flagship programs. We've got our online run training Academy running hot. We you can learn everything you need to know about running with you are doing your first five K or 10 K or maybe you're gone for an a half marathon. Or if you're doing a hundredth hundredth miler, we would love to help you. Speaker 2: (47:04) We have a holistic run training system that is based around our five pillars. So these are your run training sessions, you mobility work, your strength work, your nutrition and your mindset and all those pieces of the puzzle. Really, really important. It's not just about putting one foot in front of the other and winging it and seeing how you go. Certainly not when once you start getting into the longer distances or once you start running sort of any injury issues. So please check that out. We also have mindset U, which is our mental toughness Academy. And this is all about developing a stronger mindset. You know, all the stuff you just heard about. And the interview with colleague, that sort of stuff. It's about resilience, it's about persistence. It's about overcoming that negative voice in your heads, those limiting beliefs that were programmed into you perhaps as a young person. Speaker 2: (47:53) All of that sort of good stuff. So cheek out mindset you're in. The third program that we have is our epigenetics testing program. Now this is just really next level. Now this is a program that's been put together by hundreds of scientists working from 15 different science disciplines to look specifically at your genes and how they are expressing right now. And so this is the next step in personalized health. Never before in the history of mankind. Have we ever had an insight into our bodies like we do now. And then information can help us really nail down our health problems, our optimizing our house, tuning the clock back on time and reaching high-performance. It give you information right from like having Google for your, for your own body basically. You know, it'll tell you exactly the right foods to eat, the right times of the day, your chronobiology all about the different times of the day, your hormones, when they're replacing what your dominant hormones are. Speaker 2: (48:54) It'll give you information on your mindset, how your mind works, which parts of your brain you use the most are just absolutely next level of information. So if you want to check out our epigenetics program, hop on over to my website, Lisa Thomas E. Dot com and hit the programs button and you'll see all three of our programs. I've also got our new book relentless coming out on the 11th of March, 2020 then this is a story of bringing my bump mum back from a mess of aneurysm. And you can preorder that book. Now, if you do preorder it, you'll get free access for the next three weeks only to mindset you. So you'll get your free X's to mindset you, you also get a discount on the book if you preorder it. The book does not ship until the 11th of March. But if you support me in getting this underway, I'm actually going to give you access to mindset. You now, that's a value of $275 and that program has been running for a few years and has helped countless people. So if you want to get this as a onetime only offer only to promote the book, please head on over to the shop at lisatamati.com Under the books button and you'll find relentless the preorders available there. So thanks very much for your time everyone, and we'll see you again next week. Speaker 1: (50:12) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at Lisatamati.com.

We've played a load of games this past year both modern and retro. Whether it's a fresh release or just new to us; we break down our 2019 games of the year. Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Jake 0:00 Welcome everybody to press be to cancel. Today's a special episode for us.Palsh 0:06 Wait, what? Really?Jake 0:07 Well yeah, I know we do have some special moments. tender loving, caring moments. Don't we Palsh?Palsh 0:14 okay man.Palsh 0:16 I love you.Jake 0:17 Not on the podcast too soon to sayWulff 0:21 it again.Jake 0:42 We have a special episode today it's very special for us. We've been doing this for a couple of months now. And as is tradition for a lot of podcasts they have a game of the year episode and that's what we're going to do we're gonna start a tradition off right. I've had a few drinks says got back from work Christmas party. So this will be interesting. This is breastfeeding cancels, gave me the year edition. Now what's different for us? is we are we're not just a retro gaming podcast, but it's definitely a large component. So when I say this is our game of the year, we've selected two games, and they could be retro or modern. were easy.Wulff 1:17 Okay? More so new to us.Jake 1:20 Exactly new to us. So I am I am sick Jake. I'm this week's host. I'm not alone. Of course. I'm as always I'm joined by our usual crew. werewolf. How you doing?Wulff 1:30 I'm okay. How you doing?Jake 1:36 Was that? I'm sorry. DidWulff 1:38 you did you want me to go on longer? No,Jake 1:40 we still Burt? Burt. You're yelling. And of course, we're also joined by the Miss Piggy the Kermit guy prime in the retro therapy. How you doing?GP 1:50 I'm doing good. I've actually got two games picked out for every year since 1984. So I may have misunderstood the assignment. You're going to be late.Jake 2:00 Yeah, but knowing you half those games are ones I think are bad. So it's okay.GP 2:05 Yeah, 991 for 2003 hot garbage,Jake 2:10 yet just completed the era of hot garbage. Mega Man one, honestly. And pulse. We're joined by Paul's one and nine. How are you sir? I'm kind of shy now because he said stuff I shouldn't have at the beginning of the. I'm good. Let's just keep going. I know we've buried our hearts to each other today on this podcast. And we'll flip it over to bearing our hearts for a couple games. So I guess we've all picked our personal you know, Game of the Year. new to us. That's great. But let me We'll start with our our secondaries are on honorable mentions, and kind of go around the table and get everybody's take on that game. So let's spin the wheel. Of coursePalsh 2:50 you can add to that at a later since youJake 2:53 GP you want to start what's your honorable mention for Game of the Year 2019.GP 2:56 I hope this is allowable because it's it's Still in test phase like pre release kind of mode, but I have to mention savage the shard of gozen by our friend tober prime.Jake 3:08 NoGP 3:10 Bionic Commando.Jake 3:16 No Go for man savages. I mean toller prime is a fantastic dude, man and I love I only played five minutes of his game, but I've watched a lot of people play it. I've been saving it for myself personally, because it's early access. But if you love it, please tell us it's awesome.GP 3:29 It is awesome. And knowing tober is cool. And having watched him the game be created is a big connection that I have to admit even without all of that just completely, objectively or subject whichever it is where it's just looking at it for what it is. It is truly a fun experience. A very well composed and thought out game. If I if I'm not playing it, I've thought about playing it pretty much every day since I've had access to it. I have a schedule of things I try to keep but I played a lot of my downtimeWulff 3:58 outside of the stream is what I'm saying. So I want to jump in on this one since GP mentioned it. I also put a few hours into savage and this is a game I cannot wait to be finished, like yes, I really, really look forward to playing this in its final form. I kind of haven't gone back to it for that very reason like I bought it earlier I want I wanted to be a supporter of the game, it ended up being badass. I love what was there, but I didn't complete what was there because I want to save the game for when it's done. Like I'd like to go back and I'm sure it'll be quite different by that point. But it'll still be like different not mechanically but drop rates and maybe a couple of stats will affect the play differently. But other than that, I mean it'll be the same game that's it's the bones are there alreadyJake 4:45 piles of both for those who haven't played it? What about this game? makes it so standout?GP 4:50 I guess it's retro inspired. So it's definitely like a platform type. There's a lot of greats, kind of like quest and there's an overworld map and things like that. That's kind of me Innocent of dare I say like Final Fantasy six when it comes to the overworld The gameplay is fun the I don't say the RPG aspect because I that's that's a big thing to say. But you know you do go down to town you talk to a lot of the townspeople and there's multiple threads to pull on. from the get go like you've got the general idea the opening scenes are very well done. But then once you start, you have different paths that you can do so in that way, it's very choose your own adventure, and that's kind of the RPG aspect of it. But then just with with as werewolf mentioned, the stats, the different ways of lining up your inventory the way that you want to customize your playability. It just fires across a lot of different cylinders. And on top of that, it's a beautiful looking game. But yeah, so for me, that's what it is. It's great. It's kind of the old school retro style platformer with some RPG elements that just it delivers. And for as much as I've played it, I still feel like I've only scratched the surface. I think there's going to be a lot of replay value in The game whether or not you want to play lightly or really go deep, and try to try to get everything done.Wulff 6:05 It's like Zelda two with I don't know, pick your favorite EGA vanja Yeah, and since those two smash together and you're good Symphony of the Night Aria sorrow or do you play any of them like, pick your favorite one and it'll probably it's like scratch that itch. But it's it's like that smash together with Zelda two and that butGP 6:25 still completely original. Like that's the other part of it is for as much as it kind of harkens to some of these things. Because retro is a category you know that we think of it as it's hard not to reference things that it reminds us of, but it still is a very unique experience as well. Pulse Did you finish it? I think you finished the current build.Palsh 6:46 Now I wish I'm doing the same thing as werewolf and kind of just I love it so much. And I actually I've gotten like the hunger to play it over and over again, but I'm holding back as much as I can because I want to but I just want to wait about it. Just mainly to support tober and I'll be frank with that it was like I don't like early access, but this game was so satisfying that I just wanted to keep going with it. But I'm forcing myself not to because I want to I want to do when it's complete. So I'm just I'm basically itching to beat the whole game I want to go and I don't want to have to be like, I need more.Unknown Speaker 7:22 abstinence is fun.Jake 7:25 I will say as well the the commercial tober made for for that game is is fantastic.GP 7:31 Yeah, the guy gets it like he's, he understands kind of that that old school feeling of what is rad like you know the kind of heart of that that you know, talking about the commercial, but he gets a really good idea of what makes something fun or humorous or just truly like down to the balls awesome. If that makes sense.Palsh 7:51 anything anybody who's listening to this, if you want to check out the website, or for buying it on Steam, we will link it here on our on our own website. If Listen, presby the canceled comJake 8:02 hashtag sponsored, sponsored.Jake 8:07 All right, good. Um,Wulff 8:09 quick question, are these honorable mentions outside of our two games?Jake 8:13 No, I figured it'd be okay. week you're near number one and number two,Jake 8:18 how many games you guys have? We have a lot of contingencies. I just, oh,Jake 8:23 okay, Wolf, do you want to go next then?Wulff 8:26 Okay, so, I guess my honorable mention, would really be Death Stranding, like The Walking concept because, yes, you know what a lot of people pick on this game. And like part of me really was like, kind of letting go of the idea of picking a 2019 game because I played like five of them. And the two big ones were this one man of Medan and I'm probably only 15 hours into Death Stranding at this point. But what I have played of that stranding it. It starts slow and That's no way to sell a game day. Anybody I will admit, for me a game has to have me within two hours for me to keep playing it and Death Stranding did that. Not necessarily with the gameplay, but the story, I found the gameplay. Interesting, but the story really pulled me in right away. So as I started playing further and further, like I wanted to see what this world was and as I got further into the game, digging into the story, the gameplay picked up to and honestly today, I guess a form of fast travel has opened up to me now and I'm like building freeways and shit. It's it's really bizarre. But I dig on it like it's it's, it's definitely a walking simulator or a driving simulator. Whatever your your your it's traveling. That's what this game is is traveling, picking your basically traveling, picking up garbage along the way and taking it to whoever dropped it. YouPalsh 9:56 basically sounded like you're making, you're talking about a futuristic world. Of The Rings and I'm kind of interestedWulff 10:02 it I guess that's a good way to put it itPalsh 10:05 just make them part of the walking simulator butJake 10:08 explaining with the the the when you walk away you have to do to keep keep balance. Please explain. Oh,Wulff 10:12 yes, yes. Okay, so it's possible for your character, especially the more weight he's carrying to slip trip and fall. And so if he starts leaning, if his The, the the weight on his back or that what he's carrying starts leaning too far right, you have to hold the L to to get him to lean to the left and shift the weight back and vice versa. And if he does end up slipping, you've got about a second and a half to push the buttons. l&r both at the same time to keep him from wiping out because if he wipes out his cargo falls off, it takesPalsh 10:48 damage, whatever, it's so bad.Wulff 10:50 It's silly. I do agree. It's kind of silly, but it's it's something I don't think it's there for the purposes of like, look at this cool Gameplay loop. I think it's there to keep you engaged with the walking. Because if you were literally just running along from point to point, it would get boring. This is something that keeps you actively doing something in the game. But it's not high action high octane. It's like it's just keeping you it's keeping your attention without assaulting your senses. And I think that's kind of what the purpose was.Jake 11:24 Like the Gameplay wise. I can't I can't stand it. But the story of the characters from the baby strapped in a jar in your on your chest to the guy you're talking to with a straight face. He's wearing a metal skull on his face, del Toro's in it Conan O'Brien's fucking in it. I mean, you have a canteen that collects rainwater and turns it not into drinkable water, but into Monster Energy into MonsterWulff 11:52 Energy. I do think that's ridiculous. The your canteen converts rain or river water into my Monster Energy Drink,Jake 12:01 what the hell you have to urinate and when you urinate there's a mushroom appears. And if other people see their mushroom in their instance, they can pee on it and it gets bigger.Wulff 12:10 Yeah, and it spawns crypto by votes that lets you regain.Jake 12:15 Like, this is the most amazing, fantastic game of the year that I will never ever want to play. I love I love watching it. It is so batshit and Shane, you can't help but love this game.Wulff 12:26 I can completely understand people not wanting to jump into this game, I get it. But for me, I like weird shit. I'm a weird dude. I'm target audience. I think thatGP 12:38 there is some science to support if I remember the documentary correctly, the energy drink thing because you can use that as a tool to water your plants because from what I understand it has electrolytes in the energy drink. And that's what plants crave.Wulff 12:58 Damn it.Jake 12:58 So this comes out for the PC when this comes for the PC people going to mod it and I'm telling you the first person that replaces Monster Energy Drink with Canada's own bebas I will I will give them at least five bucksGP 13:13 I think I need to email beaver buzz where they're going to try to get sponsored or we owe them money one of the twoJake 13:19 they haven't tweeted tweeted like three years it's okay we're good.GP 13:22 Okay, so maybe should we change it to jolt?Palsh 13:27 No, it doesn't have that that lower behind it anymore.Wulff 13:31 But yeah, this this game, it's it's definitely the more you do, the faster the gameplay loop gets. And I know that sounds kind of weird, but honestly, I played for a couple hours off stream today just because I wanted to like get some of the mundane stuff done. But not major story because I'm trying to save that for an audience you knowPalsh 13:51 what can be mundane in this game.GP 13:55 If you can't even walkJake 13:56 right the the poop grenades explain the poop grenades. Please,Wulff 14:00 oh my gosh, yes, there's so many weird things in this game. So you're the main character. The main character has some qualities to his blood and just his genetics in general. That make it to where his waist is even a viable weapon against what they call BTS or beach things that the ghosties of the game Yeah, mine too. You can you can basically hurl little grenades made out of either your pee, your poop or even your shower water. And I'm guessing they have varying degrees of effectiveness a go. I imagine none of them are as good as your blood grenades.Jake 14:44 There are plus three to damage.Wulff 14:47 And I realized that everything I'm saying about this game was probably just making people scratch their head like what the hell is this about?Palsh 14:55 Now? I know he's still trying to figure that out. That's whyWulff 14:58 I really am but i'm i'm just So into the story I'm so into the upgrade system like I've I've managed to actually upgrade my weapons today after stream get access to better upgrades for like carrying capacity and things like that by just running errands for people but it'll definitely speed up the pace of gameplay for later soPalsh 15:21 if the last of us you get the spare parts at this word you get fiberGP 15:27 for dinner grenades plus toWulff 15:32 sit down even like all all I've seen him eat those little bugs, the crypto buyouts that just look like what are they called? Water bears? Oh, tardigrades, tardigrades, yeah, they just look like giant float and I say giant because tardigrades are so damn small. They're like the size of a caterpillar. But they're just tardigrade looking flying grubs that you can pull out of water apparently land coral Beat. So, Jamie here, this game is weird. I'm really good at it. And I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. SoGP 16:09 well, I will say this, my my son, I have a four year old son who who's somewhat coordinated but not at high speeds. So now whenever he starts tripping over himself, I'm just going to start yelling, L to L toGP 16:25 have a second. I'm intrigued. I've watched you play some of this. And I remember scratching my head because of the words your bodily fluids pose no harm to him. And I remember thinking What is this? And now I know a little bit more. But I don't know anymore but I have more informationWulff 16:42 and I'm very intrigued. This This game is very much like a David Lynch. experience on crack. It's just out there.Jake 16:52 Yeah, Paul's any thoughts on destroying?Palsh 16:54 I'm kind of with werewolf there. It's so out there that I just Want to pay attention more? Because it's like, I shake my head at everything that I've seen happen in this game, but at the same time, I don't want to look away I want to see what he's going to do next. It's like the Howard Stern effect kind of thing. You know, when he first came along, and everybody's like, you know the shock Jackie that's what is like, it's like a shock. shock, Jackie kind of thing, but for a video game. Is he really doing this because he wants to or is it just to keep people guessing? Because I'm constantly just questioningWulff 17:31 No, I think this is legit Hideo Kojima without being saddled by lore from Metal Gear. Yeah, right. He got to create a brand new existence a brand new universe and run with it.Palsh 17:45 Yeah. And I mean Metal Gear as great as they are like they have so many like historical tie ins and stuff like that, especially with you know, history and, you know, war and stuff like that. But yeah, even then they've had some so many WTF And since those games and it's making those look realistic, like hyper realistic, I just Yeah, I just, I'll never play it but I am enjoying watching it. And I'll never play it just because I don't have a ps4. SoGP 18:14 is anybody checking in on Cosima to make sure that he's okay, I'm feeling like maybe there might be some red flags in the game about his. I just hope he's okay. Today Oh, if you're listening, we care. And thank you for yourWulff 18:28 outright. I think he did outright respond to the negative reviews he was getting from the western press and said that Westerners don't get it or Americans don't get it or something like that. That's like, that's a little bit pretentious to say. It's like it's it's clearly not a game for everybody. Yeah, and that's fine. Not every game has to There you go. I love that. Thank you for saying that. But, but this is a game for me. I see itJake 18:53 and it's it's definitely good choice. Like there's comments the commentary in that game with the likes system and the roving mules and Former package delivery guys like there's things in that game that are weird but I can see where he's coming from as a commentary on on the way the world is today but to the extremeWulff 19:09 and where it's headed Yeah, all that kind of stuff so I mean it if you if you start like really thinking about the world that's built around what's like the weird circumstances in the world you start to kind of get an idea of where he's coming from on the social commentary side of things right but it's still got that weird like Silent Hill story going on out of left field that's constantly like what is happening?Palsh 19:33 Yeah, it's it's definitely one of a kind will put it that way.Wulff 19:38 Yes, I was. I was gonna say the last thing and it's something I said in GP stream earlier is that a lot of games active skills are reflexes, and memory. This game is active skills are patience and planning, and poolJake 19:56 which is planning and patient. I'm gonnaGP 19:59 eat this It's not for now, but for later.Jake 20:04 I love it. Okay, Polish. How about you? What's your honorable mention for Game of the Year?Palsh 20:09 It was tricky because I don't like playing favorites. Someone ever asked me what my favorite game is, I can give you a different answer depending on my mode or depending on what category so picking one was really tricky. So I'm going to go with one I'm still playing now and I've only been playing for last week, but that's how addicted I am for a runner up. That's what we're doing right runners up. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I'm going with Resident Evil to remake. I can easily say it's Game of the Year for me, but I've got I've got a reason behind that. I'll explain later. But this one is, it's hitting the nostalgia buttons on enough at the perfect intervals. Like it's just it's got me like, Resident Evil two is kind of where I've started falling in love with horror games and movies. I used to be terrified. Sleep with my parents. Every night because I was scared that zombies are going to kill us if I don't you know if I don't sleep with somebody and you know until I was like, you know 32 years old it's crazy can't sleep but uh so like resin evil two is always been my favorite. It's it's kind of the chrysalis that the catalyst sorry for me falling in love with an entire genre of games and it was part of my childhood so I knew this game better than most other games I've ever played. So I only get to play this recently like I only got about a week ago, I went in completely blind, all my friends were streaming it and as much as I wanted to support them, I couldn't watch I couldn't even leave a workout because I just wanted to watch it. I just I'm in love with it. It's the perfect amount of nods to the original and the perfect amount of updating. to not have it so dated. So they try to cover a lot of things that you know, the original You can't be because, you know this and that, like, why is the police station so convoluted in the stuff in this one, like they mentioned, it's, you know, built out of an old Art Museum of stuff. So they kind of take the, the original one and yeah, they, they kind of just try to put it in reality a little bit more and not just say, you know, hey, we're going to do this and this is how it is just because like, you know, we're going to make this fun. But it's not really realistic, you know, but the puzzles and stuff like that, they kind of fit in more and the gameplay is just great. It's satisfying. The graphics are beautiful. Every now and then, like, you're thrown for a loop because you you expected it to be like carbon copy with better graphics and new new engine. But like they change things up, but at the same time, they kept it so much the same that it feels like you're playing that game and it just blows my mind. I can't get enough of it. I can talk about it for hours and like I just want to talk about it with others. fans that are huge fans of it, because there's so many little nods, and I'm on my second play through it. And I'm catching on to stuff that I never caught the first time, I was nervous going through it, I didn't want to get scared, I didn't want to run out of ammo, I didn't want to die, you know. And after that, you start getting confidence and next thing you know, you get cocky. And the more thing you know, your first play through was like seven or eight hours the next time for and the next time after this two and a half like you get comfortable with it. And it's not that it gets boring. It's just you understand the system adapted itself the same way as me playing the original. So I think it's just so many levels of nostalgia for me that I can't get enough of it.Jake 23:40 Did they change the 10 controls in this one? Do they get rid of that orWulff 23:43 doesn't it control more like Resident Evil for now?Palsh 23:46 It's more like four Yeah, it's kind of somewhere in between seven and four for controls because you're doing third person over the shoulder but I mean, third person over the shoulder is like a much better tank control anyways, because Is this the same control scheme, but your view is different? Right? So the tank controls are necessary in the original ones because otherwise, every time the camera angle changed, you know, you'd go veer off course. So it's kind of integral to it. And that became part of the series. People complain about it and complain about it. And then when they took it out in resin evil six, all of a sudden, people were like, sucks, you know, and that's part of I think, the tank controls were part of the the immersion for me, you don't you can't jump around like you're Mario and, you know, pop off of different things and stuff. So the control kind of limits you and it kind of adds to the suspense because you can't have these amazing reflexes, you know, so you have to play any movements more.Jake 24:42 Yeah, Resident Evil is as much about the controls in a style than anything else. I think that's why when they did move three recently coming out, people were kind of harping on it complaining about it because it's kind of dated in gameplay. But it's a Shenmue game, right or Shenmue. However you want to say it, and it feels like the game from what 13 years ago so they knew the style they're going for and the people who liked that series like it for that particular style I think resin evil the same wayPalsh 25:07 yeah and when they when they listened to enough people and changed it in resin evil six that's you know that's the worst game the franchise and and like it was like Final Fantasy 13 for me I never gave it a second try and I want to sayWulff 25:21 to is a game I've yet to really do much with I have I haven't even done much looking into it because that's another one I've wanted to keep pretty much blind for myself just because too was my favorite of the Resident Evil series.Palsh 25:34 Yeah, and that that's exactly why I stayed away from it. So if you were a fan of the original that I think you will thoroughly enjoy this oneJake 25:42 cool yeah for me it was the third one Nemesis is when I played when I was younger and never really got chance to play to my uncle was huge into it though I it's one where I want to go back and play it now or at least play the remaining because everybody's been raving about it. Like this game is incredibly popular for cash. Come they've been killing it this past year. So I'm looking for to planet.Palsh 26:04 I also felt a little guilty for my game of the year being from this actual year soGP 26:10 backwards saying that is when we get to that point where we're like, I want to do gimme you the year but I don't know about doing it for this year. Yeah. Yeah, what a great year. That year was 1989 now and I'm with you guys Resident Evil two for me was my introduction to the series but it was it still has maintained as my favorite. I've seen some of the remake and it looks dope as hell, but kind of like polish. I eventually want to get to it but I haven't really sat down watched it yet. You know, cuz I want to play through it. But yeah, if it's as great as everybody says it is, which I believe it will be. I'm excited for it. I just don't know if I will get exiled for playing a 2019 game on a retro themed channel.Jake 26:58 So I rebranded the Modern therapy. Yeah,GP 27:01 I yeah,Wulff 27:02 just make a second channel the modern pair.GP 27:05 Maybe? MaybeWulff 27:09 the I just want to play it anyway there. Yeah,Palsh 27:12 I'll just give you my stream key focus.GP 27:17 Hi, everybody, this is possible. No nine. I have a cold. That's all I'm gonna say. I love Canada.Wulff 27:26 Just give him just give him your little talking face and you're good to go.Unknown Speaker 27:31 Alright, I guess let's meet now. So my honorable mention for me, Jake. Jake, what's your about mentioned it?Jake 27:41 Well, I thank you for asking. I wasn't sure if he was going to say so for me, it's tough because I'm terrible with starting games and never finishing them. Like I'm really bad at it. And I always complain about companies that release games that are I won't say too long. Maybe it's more accurate to say that they don't respect the players time, right? I mean, I'm older. I I kids I work, I don't have a lot of time to play games. If I play one, it's got to be really good for you to finish it. And I don't want to spend 80 hours anymore on these things. I love JRPGs but they're too much of a time sink for me. So it's been very tough this past year to find a game that I can finish in and enjoy in a short timeframe. The longest game I played this year was probably fallen empires, not fallen empires, Fire Emblem. I've had a few. I'll say it again. But there is one game that was just the other week came out and it's Star Wars Jedi fallen order. And I was so done on Star Wars after less Jedi, and solo especially like I had zero interest the new movies coming out in a couple of weeks. My wife wanted to go see it. And I'm like, Do we have to? Can I just can we just like you know, watch on Netflix a year from now. And I was done. Between Mandalorian and Jedi fallen order the game. It's put me in such a mood. Like we went and got the fanciest frickin tickets. I spent $30 on movie tickets. I never do that. I am down for Star Wars now Disney is hooked me again the son of a bitches. So following order is it is honorable mention because there's nothing groundbreaking about it. They're taking the best elements or, or elements from various different games like the climbing reminds me Breath of the Wild a little bit or Uncharted. There's a checkpoint system that is very dark souls inspired. Combat reminds me when you swing the lightsaber around like you're Gerald from Witcher three, they took a lot of elements from various different games and smash it all together. You say took out with a really great soundtrack and a really good it's a goodPalsh 29:37 story adorable.Jake 29:38 We also said sons of bitches. Some of the bitches Look, I get a little bit emotional when I've had a few different drink and I'm talking about my passion. Okay. Yeah, baby Yoda. It's amazing. What's wrong.GP 29:50 I haven't watched it. I haven't watched it. I haven't watched it. All.Jake 29:54 Spoilers. Okay. Wow. All right. Stop the pop.Wulff 30:00 I'm not on the Star Wars hype train by any means, but I'm probably more into Star Wars now than I ever was growing up. So take that take that as you will. Getting back on track fallen order looks pretty cool. It does look good.GP 30:13 And that's got that accurate right and the guys punchable punchable faceWulff 30:18 Yeah, the not Joker Joker from Gotham. Yeah,Jake 30:22 yeah or the kids are but his face wants me want to hit him and he'sGP 30:25 an amazing actor and I feel bad I can't think of his name because he I think it's Cameron Monaghan that sounds right.Wulff 30:32 That sounds sounds about it.Jake 30:35 challa him Monahan Let meGP 30:36 check my Instagram because IWulff 30:38 actually following Oh, we're sorry if you ever actually hear this episodes here. I really likedJake 30:48 your fantastic KimGP 30:50 MonahanJake 30:51 Yeah, and what they did was really neat in this game with the graphics, the graphics are quite a bit, very high quality and they even run in my opinion Computer upstairs I'm really impressed. But what I like about the character models themselves, is they digitized very accurately the faces of the voice actors. So there's a comedian Deborah Wilson and an actress. She used to be on that TV. Very funny person. She's one of the characters in this play a very serious role and it's she nails it and it looks just like her. They did an amazing job. Wow. So like the characters in this game are very relatable. They're very well done. The overall story. It's Star Wars, right? Like it's, it's cheesy, little bit hokey, but it's Star Wars. And there's a lot of parallels to like Rogue One as the standalone movie. Because of the standalone. They had to solve their stories in that that one movie and it felt really tight. This game is the same thing. It's the Star Wars universe, but it's its own contained story is relevant to the whole lore I guess if you want to say that but it stands on its own so well. And I think it's just really great and then like mechanics, you can play like a dark souls. You can check the difficulty up if you like the soul style game. You can do that. Me personally, I don't have the patience for it. I tried. I died to this one frog three times and I threw the controller. And I said too easy. And then I played the story and the story was fantastic. YouWulff 32:10 know what I can appreciate the single serving stories like that, though not every single experience out there needs to be like a 12 part saga. Sometimes you run a one and done kind of story, experience it have the good times, give it an ending. Don't leave it. Don't leave the audience hanging with every single entry.GP 32:29 Every word you just said we're will sounds like a one night stand. Get out there and have your fun, give it an ending. Don't leave people hanging and be done with it. Don't take it to breakfast. Was that howPalsh 32:40 that works? I've been doing a rock.GP 32:42 That's because you're polite calls.Jake 32:44 Right? You don't need her dad pregnant and going to the dark and just notGP 32:48 get any but the actress that you were saying was from med TV. Your answer to this is going to depend it's going to determine whether or not I play this game. Is it the actress who played Stewart's mom? No It's Deborah Wilson.Jake 33:02 I'm struggling to go character she played on that TV.Wulff 33:06 Oh, she did the with Sullivan. I can't remember her first name the blonde woman. They did theGP 33:12 know Nicole Sullivan. I remember because she was on.Wulff 33:14 Yes. Okay. So Deborah Wilson, I believe, did a few skit sketches with Nicole Sullivan. As hairdressers.GP 33:25 Oh, no, I sorry. I just Yeah, she's wonderful. Okay, I'll probably go Yeah, yeah, she was just gonna say if it's Stewart's Mom, I'm not gonna be able to play the game.Jake 33:35 No, it's not okay. Yeah, but it's a really solid title. Like I said gameplay not revolutionary. No, but they took the best elements of various series and mash it together. It's great. It's also got one of the greatest intros, I think of a game in recent memory. It opens up with Mongolian folk throat singing, and I know that sounds fun. Just trust me. It's a great game for sure. All right. Moving along, I guess let's get to our now number ones our official game of the year. Games circle back around a GP. Thank you. I forgot who we started with.GP 34:10 This is um,Wulff 34:12 I'm helping hands.GP 34:15 This is my game of the year. Okay, there's my official one. Then there's one I have to make mention of not the Honorable Mention but something I want to address, because it's important, but my game of the year is River City Ransom underground. And you guys know exactly why I'm going to say that because before the podcast existed before we were pressed me to cancel, we were four buddies playing that game together River City Ransom underground. And when we beat the game, not only was it fun, not only was it you know, a great call back to the river city, ransom the planet with you guys and all the updates and all the things that they did were so well executed, but by the time it was done, I was let down that it was done. I wanted there to be more and more and more And more. So much fun. And I remember the conversation after we beat it. The four of us was like, well, do we play it again? Or do we play something else? And then of course, the podcast idea came up. And of course, it was a great idea and it's beenWulff 35:14 a lot of fun. But I the podcast idea came up like the second or third time we played. Oh, yeah, we just kind of were like, yeah, okay, but I mean, like pulling,GP 35:24 pulling the trigger on it and say, No, let's do this. Because even though we can't say any of the stuff, we played, well, playing the game, we had enough chemistry or whatever to do this. So that was my favorite new gaming experience of the year. And a big part of it is because of you guys, but I mean, the game itself was tremendous, and it was so light hearted and fun, but absurd, like the absurd level of that game. Not quite as bizarre as the Cocina entry from earlier. But really, like just such a great continuation of what it was back then. And as And a bunch of new flair. And you can tell it was made by people who loved and cared about the original and I like that it came through and it was to me like I said, the best gaming experience I've had for a newer game. Nobody can get y'all are crying. And then the other thing I have to say real quick, and I'm just very briefly we don't have to have a discussion about it. I want to apologize to anybody who's ever encouraged me to play Super ghouls and ghosts, the retro therapy we've been doing a year of blind playthroughs and so my like fringe Game of the Year is super ghouls and ghosts played it in May for the first hour April as a blind run. never wanted to play it didn't look interesting. fucking love that game. I was way wrong. Game of the Year in my heart super goals and ghosts but for New Game of the Year, River City Ransom undergroundJake 36:49 for River City there's one just came at River City girls came out by bus different with studio and it's not the same and I was when I heard that title. Oh, another River City game. I was so hype for it and it's not a bad game there You seem okay on it but it doesn't play anything like the four player Co Op like just shit show River City underground is and I was like sad like actually sad that I couldn't play with you guys and it wasn't the same spark right so I think that's very telling what the original was really great fun and just absurd characters like isn't a principal a Bobo isn't it?Wulff 37:25 Yeah a Bobo is principal a Bobo teach bad student lessonGP 37:33 It was great humorPalsh 37:35 was like cool like Kool Aid man just like a double dragon.GP 37:39 It was It was great. It was a wonderful experience. I hope that you guys I sounds like 68 it but I hope you guys all enjoyed it as much.Wulff 37:46 Oh, yeah, that game it. It hits so many notes it. It had random nods to just so many things like so many various beloved franchises of yesteryear andGP 37:59 some deep Slight Oh, your headset? Yes, great.Wulff 38:02 There was so many things, there was so many references that like one of us would catch that the others didn't. And it would be like, Oh, yeah, and I even I played through this game probably two full times. So once with you guys once with another friend of mine and probably another to halfway through, like once we just pause before we did the all four of us thing and then once just by myself that's how much I like this game is just satisfying because theyPalsh 38:33 they fixed. They like they took what was great about it and then just improved on it because it was just a labor of love kind of deal. And the music music is great. Just everything else. tons, tons of characters, tonsGP 38:45 of characters. Everybody had their own unique attacks,Wulff 38:48 doesn't playable characters after you unlock everybody.GP 38:51 Wow. Yeah.Jake 38:53 One guy does a hadoo Glenn.GP 38:55 Yeah. And then there's these, you know, well, there's you know, the Chad's You're like all just completely jacked and doing push ups with their chins to hit Yeah. And it's just, it's the right level of crazy and the the operating not the operating system but the, the way in which you have to accomplish stuff, or level up is is fantastic. You can go to saunas, you can go and eat beef jerky, I can't really describe it very well and do it justice, but you guys know, and if you've played it, then you get it. But if you haven't played it, get with it, act like you want it, download it, play it, find some friends, and make some connections because it'sWulff 39:34 fun, like added to your wish list or something and keep an eye out for a deal on this game if you're hesitant, but I mean, it hits a deep sale a number of times a year. So this is highly recommended one to get your hands on.Jake 39:47 And like the original river city ransom. I tried playing that after we play the new one, right? I don't like the original at all. But Underground's awesome I fantastic. I want to play it again like the original, just something but it didn't click, like this new one does. It's weird.Palsh 40:05 It's kind of like Borderlands two. I can't go back to Borderlands the same because yeah, they just made the second one so much better. Yeah, and I hate it because I love that game.Jake 40:17 All right. Well, how about you? What's your game of the year of 2019?Wulff 40:20 Um, you know what the game that I first like that. Then another new game to me this year. And I mean, I'm keeping it relatively recent right now. Not on purpose. It just happened to be like, I've played a lot of older games, and I was playing a lot of games that were completely new to me this year catching up on stuff on my ps4. So, Dad of war. Yeah, God of War for the ps4, that that's the one that got me It did. But I mean, it's this story about credos and his son and the relationship they don't have. That becomes one by the end of the game. And just the overall game itself, the game players a lot of fun, the conference That was interesting and kept refreshing itself throughout the game because you got access to new new stuff, but it didn't feel like you were burdened by the combat or anything. You know. I don't know that the story between the father and son it got me right in the fields. And I mean, maybe that's because I have a five year old son of my own. I don't know, but I was like, man, and there were points where I was, I was, boy, there were points where I was mad at credos for being such as to his son, a trace and then there were points where I was mad at trace for being such a dick the dad so you know. It's almost like real life. I actually cared about all the characters in this game like there were there was the blacksmith's. They were interesting and fun. One of them is just this crass, dirty old uncle type of bastard and the other one is a total germaphobe neat freak can a guy they're both very interesting stories like the lore behind hind the world. It's, I mean, they make pretty deep cuts into the Norse mythology. And it's all super cool. It's pretty spot on as far as what they pulled and built off of a I This was my first god of war. I haven't played any of them prior to this.Palsh 42:17 It might be a step down from here on in just fair warning.Wulff 42:20 What do you mean? You started that? Uh, whoa, yes, yes. Yeah. But I had, I had no connection with the characters prior to this. So it's not like, you know, I knew a lot of people who played the old god of war games and they were like, oh, man, credos is so cool. And then I never got into it wasn't it wasn't the type of game I was looking for at the time. And this year, it it hit all the right notes for me, and I was so pleased to play through it.Jake 42:46 The voice actor of creatives crisper judge, he's by to con Stargate and she is so good and that the voice acting overall and the game is really good, but you're right when he says boy, oh my god, it just hits all those notes. Indeed. And it's just like such a spectacle of a game. With the fights and whatnot, it just, uh, it is it's, it almost got me to buy a ps4. I made a commitment to the PC gaming this generation I told myself, I would not get another Xbox or ps4. And it's been so hard because Sony has been knocking them out those exclusives that are really fantastic. And God of War almost had me. I'm dying to play it.Wulff 43:25 Yeah, I think I'm the only one here who's played that one. So we don't have to dwell on it too long. Basically, if you haven't played it, and you can do so please.Jake 43:34 So Paul, shovel you What's your game of the year for 2019?Palsh 43:38 My game of the year I was thinking hard and long about this and that in that order? No, not really. I couldn't decide for a while but I wanted to give this something. I couldn't decide between Resident Evil two which I've only been playing for last week and something else but I'm going with hollow night and the reason I gave this The edge over Resident Evil two was not because I enjoyed it better, because they're both I can't I can't compare him to two different games. They're both just so good. But uh, I like the fact that Hollywood I first half it's an indie game that hit it big, and for damn good reason because it's just an amazing game. It hits so many like, buttons again, I just like you know, if you liked Castlevania Symphony of the Night, which I loved, of course, and the economy is, this one is like a completely different storyline is the best Metroidvania I've played. That's not, you know, a Castlevania basically. And I just really thought that after I reading up on it, and discussing with people what they did when they developed this game and how they've worked with it. I didn't know this was a Kickstarter game until I was halfway through. And I'm really wary of Kickstarter games for the most part, but I mean, that's all because I tried to buy Something on Kickstarter wants and I got burned. So I just said Oh, it's all garbage. Garbage is bliss hot garbage. Yeah. But no, I really liked the fact that they destroyed their Kickstarter cool. And as a result, they added extra content they have free DLC, which is the only way to do DLC. Personally, I can't stand the concept of DLC. For me, it's just like, oh, why are you selling an incomplete game that's, you know, stretching it out and trying to make money in the meantime and try to keep the buzz going. Like I'm just very negative when it comes to DLC. And I like how they did it because first off, it was free second half. It was great. It wasn't just like a cheap extension of the game. There's just so many great ways that they did it and apparently that they're working on a spin off or sequel I don't know what to call it. But the people that that contributed to the original Kickstarter campaign for hollow night apparently get the new game for free.Jake 45:57 Oh wow.Palsh 45:58 That's so little Things like yeah, and so like these indie devs are I think they're doing everything right and that's I think Capcom made resin evil to remake and it is amazing and they know what they're doing. They've made many mistakes along the way but they're also one of the biggest names in the world. These guys are you know, I've never heard of them before. This is the game that they are famous war and that's pretty much the only game they got and they're killing it. And I just really wanted to serve my support to them because I think it's amazing. So I'm looking forward to anything else that they put it in the future and just want to do spread that spread that enthusiasm to anybody who hasn't played it. To definitely check it out because retro inspired first off and it is like I said one of a kind for a metro Metroidvania which is not an easy thing to do your your cartoon bugs and the story is really deep, considering how cartoony and how innocent it is. It can be an At the same time really Gothic and really morose but still makes you feel good makes you happy to play it.Jake 47:08 It's definitely going to style man I like the whole role of the bugs and the grubs and the color palette is very very specificWulff 47:15 it to me it screams of like Tim Burton with bugs. Yes,Palsh 47:21 yes, I like that that's that's that's a great analogy there.Jake 47:25 It's one where I don't think I gave it a fair shake when it first came out and I have to go back and play it because I did try it but I found it a little bit of a difficult side or at least initially and I think I fell off it but I have to go back and tryWulff 47:37 I can see how that happened. What platform Are you playing on? It was PC Okay, so you've got a nice big chunky controller is gonna say if you're playing on switch, those two icons are not going to do you any favors. It was like this you need to have a big controller where it's easy to get from button a button and maneuver the joypad your hands is not going to to easily cramp up this was the game that I probably first streamed. When I started really getting into streaming. I had a lot of fun with this game. But for me my biggest issue with the game is just how samey the color palettes are sometimes I legit could not see enemies on certain screen it can get tricky like that. And that's probably more in me issue than an issue with the game itself. So I don't it's not something I hold against the game that was just my issue with the game but the boss fights and a lot of the level design and everything the world building it was all so much cool. So much fun, so cool at the boss fights and it specifically I just, they were so much fun to learn and figure out and master save for like maybe one of them that just pissed me off to no end until I beat it after it doesn't attempt.Palsh 48:54 The boss fights. Some of them were brutal and it came harking back to the days of NAS hard, where you stick through it, and you get Spidey and you want to beat it. And when you finally do, it's just such a satisfaction that you're just proud of yourself and you keep going. And I think the more bosses that you fight, and the more that you struggle with it, I think the makes it just, the more you want to play it.Wulff 49:17 I also liked that this game sort of encouraged the player to be a little bit more mindful of where they traveled. It ate up one of your active charms slots, or maybe two or three of your active charm slots to First off, be able to see the map when you're running around. Or maybe see which room you're in or see your specific location, things like that. Yeah, otherwise, you didn't get that you just got to see the map. And I that might have been a charm tonight. I think about it. But I'm not surePalsh 49:48 you have you can look at the map anytime you want to but to see where you were in relation to everything, you had to use one of the terms so yeah, yeah. So that was always on for me.Wulff 49:58 Me too. I was so Last the few times I elected to go without that thing I was I don't know what room I'm in. I have no idea. So I just started keeping it, it became a staple.Palsh 50:07 You very much have to have that as far as I'm concerned it The world is God I want to say it is three times bigger than I expected. I'm not excited and like, you know, I was about a quarter of the way through the game and I thought I was half done. I thought I was like three quarters the way down. And my friend saw my map and he said, Oh, yeah, you're doing good. You You were about 30% and I'm like what? Wow. Yeah. And so it's it's it's a big game and it's challenging. It'll take you a while. But it is worth every penny. I think it's just great.Wulff 50:46 And then there's the the challenge areas where like, the platforming oh my gosh, you I don't know if you did many of those are any of them but I did. I remember doing the one where everything is white and It's like a lot of clouds and stuff. And each you gotta jump on buzz saws and everything. It's a lot of platforming, a lot of perfectly timed attacks to things that'll hurt you to bounce up off of them and keep platforming. I had a lot of fun with it. It was very difficult but also it I felt very accomplished after completing it.Palsh 51:19 Yeah, the controls for that. They're so tight in the best way. So if you die, you're like, that was my phone. Yeah, that was my fault. You never going to throw that throw the controller and you know, like the Castlevania mode. Like when you're playing the original Castlevania games and you get thrown off because something hits you made jump and stuff. Now it's nothing like that. It's just it's challenging and a whole different level.Jake 51:42 Like Dark Souls combat was always difficult. But I always felt if I died, I felt a lot of time I died because of the slowdown of the animations. It wasn't it was fluid, but there wasn't as much control over your movements. Yeah. Whereas with hollow night, I mean, it's dead of it. There's obvious Dark Souls inspiration here. The combat is fast and like you said, controls very tight. And you are precise with your movements right you have full control your character and if you're right if you die, and I never did I say it's because the game has bad controls or gameplay. It's just it's just too hard for me. That was my fault. Yeah, exactly.Palsh 52:19 So it's definitely it's just one of those games where I don't really have a complaint about it except for the fact that it's just, there's so much that I want to do. Yeah, it's there's so much to it and getting like 100% on everything it is. It is a big pill to swallow if you want to do that. SoJake 52:37 Alright, awesome. I guess that leaves us Jake.Wulff 52:40 Bring it home. Jake. Jake, what do youJake 52:42 know? Yeah, sorry. I just got back to GP laughing I my games my game when I mentioned what it was. So for me, my game of the year. It's not new to me. But I played it a whole lot this year. And I gotta start by saying, I don't like beat him ups. Everybody raves Mostly to rage, and final fight and all those games. I don't like them, I never really got into them. The only one that I really cared for and it came from when I was a kid, my friend had a Master System. And I had a lot of fun memories going to his place to play it. And the one game we played quite a bit was Double Dragon. My game of the year is double dragon for the Master System.Palsh 53:21 See, I thought you were just building up how you're going to start talking about something more recent. So for the fact that I knew what you're going to say,Wulff 53:30 Now, like, I've not played this game. I never really played much Double Dragon in general. What I did play was when I was younger, and I sucked at it, and it was on the ns like that's the one I played. Yeah, and I even cheesed my way through that game. I want to say last year, late last year with safe states because I finally got fed up with trying to do a full single setting of that game. I just couldn't do it. I'm hoping the Master System version is better. Otherwise, I'm calling shenanigans on your turn.Jake 54:02 From once people are disagreeing with me, that never happens. So okay, you're right so the I've been trying to get into the Double Dragon because I know that's the most common one people have been playing. The problem I have with that part of the game is and we mentioned before in the podcast, Nintendo when they brought certain franchises over to the me as they kind of insisted that be something more unique or additions made to the game to separate it from the other versions. Because Double Dragon as an IP, or the first one is important to literally everything. If you want to a hot garbage time. It's the Skyrim Double Dragon for mid 80s. Yeah, we'll play the Atari 2600 version. It exists. It uses one button and a joystick. And if you play Double Dragon the NES you know that you've you really should have three buttons for that game. Right in order to jump you need to push a and b at the same time. It's terrible. The Atari only has one button.Palsh 54:57 You have an automatic jump kick soon as you do Anything with it jumping So,Jake 55:01 right but you have to unlock it in the NDS version. What's the message to them to get off don't not to get too far off track. They are different games. The ns has technical limitations with it. Right? The reason I like the Master System on I know never heard of that before a bit systems being crappy blunt. Like the Master System version was Co Op, you could play with a friend. In fact, it was meant to be played with a friend. Wow. It's on screen Co Op, as well. Yes version. I had a restriction of I want to say two enemies at once on screen. And they were almost I think they had to be the same sprite when they did it. So if you to Bobo'sWulff 55:35 Miss,Wulff 55:37 right?Jake 55:39 Yeah. So the sprites looked a little bit better on the vs vs Master System, but you only had two enemies on the screen at one time. So I mean that and for whatever reason, Nintendo I guess, for that port had shoehorned in some platforming elements, which were terrible, right and it jumping in a game is bad and it's bad in the Master System as well. But nobody In the Master System version is there moving platforms or things you have to navigate the only jump that's really a pain in the butt is the division three you're in the jungle area or forest area and there's a bridge broken into jump across it that's the only real tricky jump jumping is optional. Yeah, but the NAS had so many other jumps that were just terrible. Yes, right. So my system has Co Op First off, I want to say three enemies max on screen if not for and you can have different enemies on screen at once. The first level the end boss is a red a Bobo and there's another guy on the screen or two Why don't you guys the screen and same time I believe, but it's great for that. I played a lot of double dragon in the arcades. When I was a kid. It was Double Dragon and it was a lot of rampage the original rampage nice and this is very true to the arcade. It does not look as nice. The sprites are designed quite different. But the stage layout and the music is almost spot on. Release. Nostalgia tells me it was very similar to the arcade game it's also easier as well more forgiving the enhanced version I say that there's no continuous I think in that one no wrongWulff 57:11 there are notJake 57:12 right and that's ass.Palsh 57:15 Stupid okay.Wulff 57:16 For no reason not agree more.Jake 57:19 Right so Master System you have unlimited continues. For this first three missions is only four missions, you have a limit continues for the first three it's only at the fourth mission that whatever you had, you have to finish the fourth message force force. wow I've had a few. The fourth mission, you have to use your remaining lives and that's all you get. So if you finish mission three with one life you only have one life and no continuous permission for that's a bit annoying, but it let it prepares you the first three missions to kind of make your way through the game is definitely challenging some of the fights, but you have that cushion if you need it. The difficulty ramp up is pretty smooth first mission the enemies you face. And then once you the mission three it ramps up quite a bit and then for it gets a lot harder but it just a great professional way through. But I love it and Co Op because you just battling with a friend right and I get it now for beat him ups for people who play beat him ups. I could never get through the first few stages I just never understood. How can you get there with one life far How do you guys survive that but when you realize when you're playing these games, you got to find the certain moves and when them use them use them. It's very much a placement of your sprites. When you're playing Double Dragon the Master System, you want to bob and weave a bit to avoid getting jump kicked. But the enemies for example, you want to know that the way the AI moves, you can kind of predict the way that moves if you watch carefully enough and you can understand how the game works. Picking that game apart this past year to try and get my time down because I was trying to stream it for retro block party. And originally I played it took me an hour and 10 minutes to beat it just too long. So I want to get it down and I just played it over and over again and I just got such a groove learning the ins and outs of that game and I can do it now and 30 minutes no problem. Wow. It's got to a point where I love playing that game so much and I can just sit down and relax planet I've started speed running it in my off time I hateJake 59:07 I'm not a speed runnerPalsh 59:09 ever Who are you?Jake 59:11 I know who am I it's like I'm not a Jake but it's actually one speed from this game like it's just there's no glitches while there's a couple but it's not like you're you know you're you're zips and weird screen tricks like some speed running games. Double Dragon is just a straight you got to play it and you got to play it well you need to know what moves to use and how to position yourself with the AI. It's just as true game as you can get. I love it. The End sequence is also especially noteworthy if you're playing Co Op. Well, I guess the spoilers, but Nintendo version, you know, a 30 year old game, the end of the Nintendo game, you beat the big ugly with the machine gun. You then face Your brother is his baby. I guess his name is he's the boss and he's super cheap. And the mass system version if you play Co Op after be the guy the machine gun you must beat your brother to death your co op becomes one on one and that's who wins the game.Unknown Speaker 1:00:06 First time that happened,Jake 1:00:07 my friend and I were dying laughing when one of us won the one died. It was just hilarious that you're playing Co Op for for missions. And you get to the end and you gotta beat on your partner it just hilarious is great. Like I don't think any other medium of game has done quite that. I thought that was prettyWulff 1:00:24 that's quite a twist ending for an any or you know for an eight bit game. Not Yeah, Master System. But still. That's, that's pretty cool.Palsh 1:00:32 I want to play it now. Because when you take a platforming, like that sounds more appealing.Wulff 1:00:37 I might go back visit this one.Jake 1:00:41 Yeah. And you have all your moves from the beginning. You can do the elbows and drop kicks, all right from the gecko, and it's fine like Nintendo one is not a bad game. It's fine. I do like it but the Master System one for me just really has that nostalgia belt. It just rings it really clear. It reminds me the arcade game. The music is there. The gameplay is there. It's a fun Co Op game and I've played it so much this year that I've actually started speed running it. And I've never ever said that word with my name in a sense. So for me, it's declared Game of the Year for me just and how much I've enjoyed that retro title.Palsh 1:01:13 I think the only thing I dislike about what I've seen of that game, that version is that the coffee mug fists aren't quite as prominent. That's it.Jake 1:01:24 That's a big, pretty key criterion or a big games.Palsh 1:01:28 It is for me that was the third video game I've ever played. It's high in my record.Jake 1:01:35 Alright, well I think that will do it. That is of course the game of the year for us not just retro, modern two or anything between the new to us all of your titles for presby 2019. I think this is something we're going to get tradition. Maybe not has made drinks and Jake before he does it.Jake 1:01:53 That's fantastic. Well, thank you, everybody who's here. Pulse where Can everybody find you?Palsh 1:01:58 You can find me here. Every now and then I do stream on Twitch at twitch TV slash pulse. 109 says pa l as h 109.Jake 1:02:08 And we're all working folks find you.Wulff 1:02:10 They can find me and Twitch and twitter at werewolf w ar EWULF. f.Jake 1:02:18 and GPS so stunned about my selection for my personal Game of the Year. He is speechless. You can find him at the retro therapy on Twitch TV, or search the retro therapy over on YouTube's. I think he's on Instagram and Twitter too. You'll see him around. He streams a lot. He's a good guy by Nick coughing, but we love and I'm sick Jake, you find me on Twitch mostly, mostly Twitter, just like everybody says just right here, here on presby to cancel. It's been a hell of a year. Here's to another year going forward. Thank you everybody.Wulff 1:02:53 Thank you all for listeningPalsh 1:02:55 to speedsWulff 1:02:57 to an 818Jake 1:03:03 Special thanks for music go to Arthur, the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last station on YouTube. For more episodes, please visit our website presby to cancel.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google podcasts or anywhere else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows. As always, thank you.Special thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

Quick show notes Our Guest: Daniel Olson What he'd like for you to see/remember: Use the term "static" sparingly | Join in the community and share problems, solutions, etc. His JAMstack Jams: Wordpress (headless and/or as a static site generator) | Netlify's build process/hooks His Musical Jam: Poolside.fm Our sponsor this week: TakeShape Transcript Bryan Robinson 0:02 Hello, everyone, welcome to yet another episode of That's My JAMstack. I'm your host Bryan Robinson and this will be the last regular episode of the year will be back to official episodes of The New Year. But we'll be tiding you over with a special holiday slate of episodes where various guests from this past year will be talking about their thoughts on the JAMstack in 2020. Bryan Robinson 0:20 This week, though, we have the COO of a company called DigitalCube. He's a self taught web developer and a JAMstack enthusiast I'm very pleased to have on the show Daniel Olson. Bryan Robinson 0:29 I'm also pleased to have back this week our sponsor TakeShape. You can hear more about their content platform after the episode or head over to takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack for more information. Bryan Robinson 0:44 Daniel, thanks for being on the show with us today. Daniel Olson 0:46 It's a pleasure. Bryan Robinson 0:47 So tell us a little about yourself. What do you do for work? What do you do for fun, that sort of thing. Daniel Olson 0:52 I'm the Chief Operating Officer at DigitalCube. I get to work on all the products we develop and travel a bit sharing some of the work that we do. One of those products I work on is called Shifter. It's a static site generator for WordPress and some might say it's a serverless hosting platform. Another product I get to work on is called Animoto. It's a managed WordPress hosting solution built for enterprise. We're only limits the options that AWS can offer us, which is a lot. But my my role is a bit of a variety show. Like many companies and the growing JAMstack community, we wear many hats. Most days I work on MVPs and do feature development. And the way I like to do that is through customer feedback. So my kind of my main jam is finding gaps where our products don't like cover and then building solutions with the designers and engineers around that. Bryan Robinson 1:44 Cool so what do you do outside of work? What's your favorite thing to do when you're when you're off? Daniel Olson 1:48 What do I do? Also a bit of a variety show. I'm in the kitchen a lot. I make a lot of food. I like to dine out and like You know, try different foods. I'm also a big beer guy, I run like a beer website on the side. And that's kind of my life is around like, you know, enjoying tastes. So if there's something to like something new to try, like if when I when I travel a lot, my co workers like to like push the boundaries a little bit, and they'll try to get me to eat like strange things, but it never really works out because I always enjoy it. Bryan Robinson 2:25 So what's your favorite cuisine that that you've tried? Daniel Olson 2:31 Maybe I don't hate me. Maybe some of vegetarian listeners might be upset. But I did go to when I was in Japan with my co workers after a meetup. Someone asked me if I liked sashimi, which Yes, I love sashimi. But we were in Fukuoka, which I didn't realize that sashimi me has lots of different meanings. And I've learned that in Fukuoka, sashimi could mean raw horse meat. Which is pretty, like common in Japan and in certain regions. So, I mean, you know, I'm game if everyone says it's good, I'll give it a try. And I was very impressed. I learned a ton about this, like, you know, like food category I never really knew anything about or I thought I knew about. But I would go back like in a heartbeat. I would love to do that again. Bryan Robinson 3:22 Interesting. Interesting that that surprised me. You caught me off guard with that one. Daniel Olson 3:26 Yeah, and you can eat all of it. There's certain there's certain pieces or certain cuts that must be grilled. And some of them you can or you don't have to so like they basically bring out like a like a grill. And you can use chopsticks and you just give it like a little bit of heat. For some of the pieces, some of the sausages you have to cook thoroughly. But most of it you can eat with you know, Ginger or rice or like pickled vegetables. It's it's a I think it's a good experience. If you're, if you have the opportunity, I recommend it. Bryan Robinson 3:59 Interesting. Cool. So obviously not not a food podcast, more of a more of a tech podcast here. So let's, let's talk about your, your enjoyment of static sites or the JAMstack, what was your entry point into this kind of philosophy of building sites? Daniel Olson 4:13 It's kind of a funny story. Um, my introduction to static sites was at, I worked at a branding agency for a number of years, and we're pretty small team, one of the other developers I worked with, he was, you know, kind of more familiar with the static sites and the services generators out there. And he told me about them and you know, we are WordPress shop. So thinking about, you know, the value or, you know, what the clients would need. It was always really difficult for me to, you know, jump ship and recommend that to our clients because at the end of the day, they're the ones who have to live with these sites and edit them and, you know, help like grow them. Daniel Olson 4:53 So, you know, writing markdown using like, a non familiar CMS backend other than WordPress. was kind of a hard sell. But we it still was in the back of my mind. But when I went to a conference in Philadelphia, where I'm from, and I met this group of, you know, Japanese developers, and they were working on this interesting product, and they introduced it to me as a "Third Wave". They're like, this is this is going to be the future. And they kept trying to explain it to me, I didn't quite get it. And I didn't actually really understand it until like a year after. But what they were trying to do is to bring some of the approaches that status like static site generators were doing to the WordPress community and like bridging that gap. And it didn't click at first and it really made no sense to me because it was explained as the third wave, but, but it makes total sense in hindsight now. Daniel Olson 5:52 So that was that was my first introduction. It was like I was kind of like I fell into it. But I also was like, living amongst it for For years not really paying attention to it, Bryan Robinson 6:02 So with with that what they were doing was that before WordPress had the API stuff was that before you could go headless with WordPress, or is that they were doing their own thing around that. Daniel Olson 6:12 It was it was kind of alongside so there was these, you know, two communities within the WordPress ecosystem at that time. And it was people who are developing, you know, they're like power users are using plugins to do things. They're doing theme development. And then there's this other track where, you know, they're a group of developers are really trying to push the boundaries of what WordPress can do just as a blogging tool like they're using it as a full featured CMS. And that was when headless really kind of took off the REST API was getting a lot of attention. Daniel Olson 6:41 Some of these other projects, and even plugins, were using the REST API, but it's I think, I call them that like their technology magic tricks, like, yes, it works. And then like you build a little demo, and then let's see how far we can take this magic trick and like you build out these incredibly large sites using WordPress. Completely headless. But it's really just, you know, an extension of that first demo, like, are you doing anything different? It's just the implementation. Daniel Olson 7:08 But when I learned about the the project that these guys were working on, it was totally different. It was kind of a mix between the two. Yes, we want to give users the same experience that they're familiar with in the back end. But we also want to deliver the benefits that these other ideas can offer, like the benefits that jam stack has, or the benefits that headless has. So it was like kind of a cross between the two. But it was the WordPress REST API that actually enabled it. Bryan Robinson 7:40 True. Yeah. Cool. So would it be fair to say that kind of this idea of WordPress headless is where is where you kind of got into everything? Daniel Olson 7:49 Yeah, yeah. And it was, um, you know, we, at the agency I worked at we built a lot of just, you know, demo sites and like little product sites for clients and it at the time, it was like a total experiment you couldn't even do it natively in WordPress, it was an extension like you had to install a plugin to enable the REST API. It was that early. And now it's a part of core and we talked about it. It's, you know, this ubiquitous thing that, you know, everyone's familiar with it if you're in this community, but at the time, it was like, What is REST? What does that mean? And yeah, so it's, you know, I'm, it feels good to be a part of something that I've got to see grow over time. Bryan Robinson 8:30 Cool. And so so I'm kind of curious about about headless WordPress. I've only I've done magic tricks with it. That's about as far as I've gone into that world for, for WordPress in the JAMstack. What are some, some challenges y'all have been overcoming? What are some, some things for people to kind of be aware of if they start playing with this idea? Daniel Olson 8:48 So headless WordPress is I would consider that it's its own category. And the work that I do in the kind of the world that I live in, within like the development community, there's it's really three distinct categories. So you have like traditional WordPress, which is what, you know, people are familiar with that. And then you have headless WordPress which is decoupled. You're building your JAMstack site and using WordPress as your CMS or back end. And then you have static WordPress, which is kind of the in between. So we're using WordPress as a static site generator. So it's that's like its own special category. You're, you're not converting or building a new site using WordPress as your back end. You're using WordPress itself and generating the static site from that. That site itself, it's not there's no Developer Tools involved. It's just native WordPress. Bryan Robinson 9:46 Oh, interesting. So instead of like a cash, you're and then you're building in your build step from the actual WordPress files on a Linux server. Daniel Olson 9:54 Yeah, so it's actually the way that we do it is the the approach is service. So the end result the way that it's delivered. And the product itself is built as service. So we were using AWS lambda. So we're an AWS advanced technology partner. So about 50% of our team are just AWS engineers who have a deep understanding of those technologies and the infrastructure. And then about the other half are WordPress developers. So we work really tightly together to develop solutions that take advantage of what AWS has to offer, and kind of leverage all these capabilities for WordPress. It's not, there's like there's two ways to do WordPress in AWS, you run WordPress, just as a layer on top, and it's just there. And then or you could actually kind of integrate it into the services and just get a lot more of opportunity, a lot more power out of it. But the way that we're doing it is we use the WordPress REST API, which like I said, it was basically that was the catalyst that made this possible. Daniel Olson 10:59 The WordPress REST API the way that we use it, we use that to get to get a list of links from the WordPress site. So we we can, like at a quick glance, see every page that exists by hitting a certain REST API path. And then we pass that to AWS lambda, which then queues up a list of URLs to crawl. And then it crawls each URL seems it to an s3 bucket. And that gets served with CloudFront. So at the very basic level, that's kind of how it works. Bryan Robinson 11:29 Very interesting. And so you're, you're you're still using like WordPress, his own templates and all that, right. Daniel Olson 11:35 Yeah. So if you want to use the themes, same themes and plugins, you are free to use those as long as they there's certain exceptions like contact form plugins, they naturally in the WordPress world, they want to post data back to the WordPress database, which, at that point in time, doesn't exist because you've now created a static site and WordPress is no longer in the picture but There are some like opportunities and shims that exist. One of the I developed a couple of plugins that will swap out like action URLs within forums to send those to third parties, whether it's, you know, jam stack friendly, like forums as a service sites like a forum spree or form kit, or basin or even that with five forms. Bryan Robinson 12:22 Interesting. So I want one things I've always wondered about headless, headless WordPress is the idea that if you're using WordPress headless, and you're doing it like with your own static site generator on the side, you're really getting like 25%, maybe 30% of benefit of WordPress, that sounds like y'all are closer to like, 75 or 80% of all the benefits of WordPress, because I was I was always like, why would you ever use headless WordPress if you're only getting a small portion of the benefit of it? Daniel Olson 12:46 Yeah, and I see that too. And having like, really, like dived into the JAMstack ecosystem, seeing the tools that are out there, it's still growing. There's still a lot of rooms who for it to mature, and they're like things like gaspee the plugin ecosystem is like booming, there's, you know, there's a lot of stuff out there. But there's still more stuff in the WordPress world. So I get why people still want to use it like the theme themes are one thing, but also plugins, like having the opportunity to just search the plugin directory of the 50,000 plus plugins that exist, there's going to be some solution in there for whatever problem you need. And most of the time, it will work in that scenario, like even as a headless option. If it's a popular plugin, they probably have developed REST, like paths for it, to interact with it in a headless manner. Bryan Robinson 13:39 Yeah, but even then, like if you're if you're interacting with it in the headless manner, you then have to build that functionality into your templates unless you're using WordPress as its own static site generator at that point. Daniel Olson 13:48 Yeah, and in that case, you just use it natively, how you want to, you know, experience it naturally in the WordPress world. And then you just click a button and then we crawl your site generate a static version. And then power down WordPress. Bryan Robinson 14:02 Awesome. So So it'd be fair to say that headless WordPress is kind of your jam in the JAMstack, or do you have any other like products or tools, services philosophies that you're really digging right now. Daniel Olson 14:14 Um, I was introduced to. It's kind of funny. It's like, it's a feature that we developed. But I didn't really get much use out of it personally, until a customer had a very unique request. And it was the integration between our product and Netlify web hooks. And I started to use Netlify web hooks, just so you can basically build your static WordPress site on Shifter and you can deploy it to Netlify so if there's like, you know, I want to use Netlify Forms, I want to use Netlify analytics, I want to use the basic auth or I have another application and I want to keep all of my sites in one place. You can do that. Daniel Olson 14:57 But one of the things that I didn't really dive into was there build tools. So when when you do the web hooks, and you can customize the Netlify Builds you can get like really granular with all the different things that happen during your build runtime. And I like I don't know why I just never really got into that. But I, one day, I just kind of spent all day reading about it and, you know, learning about it and testing it. And I was like, blown away by all the options that they have in there. It's kind of it's a, it's a hidden gem. Like I recommend spending a little time reading about it. Bryan Robinson 15:28 Well, I'm nowadays they even have the ability to plug into into the build process. They have variables, you can set up to do a whole bunch of stuff that they're testing out. Right now it's in beta. Daniel Olson 15:40 Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a lot of amazing like fun stuff that's going on. And also the forms and the way the analytics work. It's like It's like analytics is such a difficult thing for a lot of web developers because of ad blockers and like proxies and networks. But if you're running your analytics like Netlify does based on Like the server stats itself, like you, like you're making a connection to this site, whether you blocked an ad script or not, that analytics reporting tool is still going to measure all that data. It's not going to give you like, as much as something like a google analytics that you're allowing to track you. But it's still a valuable tool for developers and even like, you know, if to run your business like what's going on in my application, you can cost optimize and and see what's really happening Bryan Robinson 16:29 And doesn't affect front end performance. Which is great, too. Daniel Olson 16:32 Yeah, it's something that happens naturally, that data is logged anyway for the server itself. So you know, just providing access to it is it's crazy like it's they're providing access to it. It now has become a product. Bryan Robinson 16:45 Yep. Oh, yeah. Gotta find ways to monetize and keep the keep the doors open. I want Netlify around for a long time. Daniel Olson 16:52 Yeah. And keep keep your customers happy. Bryan Robinson 16:55 Exactly. Cool. So So what's going to keep you in the JAMstack? Obviously you It's important you right now, which is great, but like, what's the core philosophy that you're gonna dig into in the next couple years? Daniel Olson 17:06 I am a, my, my core philosophy is the rule of least power. I think that a lot of times we, you know, hit solutions with the hammer instead of like, figuring out a different approach, like every problem is a nail. Like the, the idea of applying JAMstack has, like an approach is really appealing to me because it focuses on something that I also really appreciate. And that's design thinking. So rather than just applying a solution, or you know, throwing more power at something, or making it like overly complicated jumps that can can be quite elegant, because it's using only things that you need. Daniel Olson 17:48 So as opposed to what you know, like WordPress is traditionally a monolith. It comes with a lot of things that you don't necessarily need or may ever use. But JAMstack is like, All right, I'm building this site, I need comments. Just add the comments you need. I need ecommerce right now I'm just going to add ecommerce, but you don't need other features. They don't exist you didn't build them. And that's what I love about the the JAMstack community is it gives us the opportunity to pick and choose and kind of build exactly what we need. Bryan Robinson 18:22 I actually the rule of least power is one of my guiding principles actually wrote a blog post about a year ago on it. One of my favorite things that came out the development of HTML and, and and the web. Daniel Olson 18:34 Yeah, and like I always kind of,I always get stuck like whenever there's a new app or new tool out there, like Yeah, but like this thing does it but also there's no UI for it and it runs faster. And I like I'm just kind of geeking out over that stuff like a Hyper, like Wes Bos on JavaScript courses he uses Hyper a lot. And like, I love looking at it. Hyper is like a beautiful terminal. But also it runs JavaScript and like it kind of takes a lot longer to open then just like my terminal with nothing in it. So that's like, those are my daily struggles. Bryan Robinson 19:13 The new cool versus what's the most efficient for you? Daniel Olson 19:16 Yeah, don't go overboard. Just use what you need and get the job done. It's also I think it's good for me because I work with a lot of customers to on their servers. And like, if you're logging into a server, you don't have the luxuries of your like your customized bash scripts. And these, you know, like pretty UI is like you just have to know what you're doing. And like just kind of using the basic tools to get the job done is has really paid off for me. It's it's taught me a lot. Bryan Robinson 19:46 Having the same tools that everywhere definitely makes it easier when things go wrong in the non fancy places. Daniel Olson 19:51 Yeah, I sometimes I think of it as like a little form of torture for myself just because I'm not giving myself like an advantage but it's it pays off in the long run Bryan Robinson 20:01 definitely alright so so let's let's talk music what's your actual jam right now what what musician or song or type of music Are you really into right now? Daniel Olson 20:11 My my musical tastes vary throughout the day some days I wake up listening to like Wilco on all my Alexa devices just blasting throughout the house. And then maybe by lunch I'll be listening to like little Wayne's the Carter three and I'll just have like genius up like the website genius and just I'm picking apart all the rap lyrics. Um, but yeah, like I I, the thing that I really enjoy right now is and it's the perfect background noise for me. It's this thing called poolside FM. And there's a website for I think it's just poolside.fm but it's a it's a website that kind of looks super 80s and it plays music videos and also music along with it, but the music videos are like clips like old VHS random clips almost like everything is terrible. But I don't know it's just like the perfect background noise when you're like coding or just need something on while you're cleaning the house. And I've they never show like the what's playing are actually I listened to it on my Alexa but they never show it's playing so I'm always like asking my phone like, What song is this Bryan Robinson 21:22 as a little mystery to your life? Yeah. Cool. So is there anything that you would like to promote that you're doing right now that you want to get out in the world? Daniel Olson 21:31 Um, actually, I want to give a shout out to to Phil Hawksworth from Netlify about I want to like throw back to one of your previous episodes and something he said that it's it's funny when I listened to the episode I I've said the same thing in a couple talks and it just resonated with me so I want to call it out again. Daniel Olson 21:52 He he said something he's very careful about using the phrase static sites and I totally agree with that. And the reason that I agree with that is one of my favorite sites jamstack.org, which is kind of like a manifesto for me. It's like we are the JAMstack party. This is what we believe. But the most important part of that website is what it actually does not mention, it doesn't mention any specific frameworks. It completely focuses on best practices. And if you search the site, for the word static, it only appears once. And it says, I'm pretty sure it says probably static. Daniel Olson 22:33 So it's like kind of like, you know, going back to it. This is not, we're not purists. This is an approach. It's a philosophy. And then it's a way to build something better. But yeah, that's kind of that's a that's I just wanted to mention that But yeah, I don't really, I don't really have anything to promote, like we we have, we're in the WordPress community. But we're kind of like we straddle those two things like WordPress and jam stack but I just think that, uh, the WordPress community and also the jam stack community has a lot to learn from each other. I think that Jeff slack.org is a good place to start. I think that really focusing on the approach rather than the tools is something that is really important that that you should do, and that you can learn a lot from. And also just talk to other developers see what they got going on and see what problems they have to solve. Maybe you can help them maybe your experience is valuable. Bryan Robinson 23:26 And we all kind of have different problems. And we find the right solutions for them no matter what the stack is. Daniel Olson 23:32 Yeah, yeah, in in the WordPress world, like I've I've developed plugins, and some of the plugins that I've developed. I tried to build them so that they work in both environments, whether you know, you're running on Shifter, and we create a static site from that from that site for using WordPress. But you can also build that plugin so that it can work natively in a native WordPress and like hosting environment. And I've learned that building Something that applies to both types of like hosting platforms, it actually just makes it more performance overall. And like, you don't need to, it doesn't need to be static, but the way that you've built it, it could be static. And the end result is just more performance. So why not build it this way? anyway?. Bryan Robinson 24:19 Well, I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to talk with us. And I hope you keep doing some amazing stuff on the jam stuff. Daniel Olson 24:25 Thank you for having me. Looking forward to it. Bryan Robinson 24:30 All right, it's sponsored time, I want to talk today about a specific feature in TakeShape, which is our sponsor, for this episode. And that's the API Explorer. Inside your TakeShape dashboard, you'll find the Explorer and it's a really great tool for a GraphQL novice like myself, but it also has lots of great features built in, like some autocomplete and built in documentation. It makes it really incredibly easy to find all the pieces of data that you want to include in a GraphQL query, and then it's going to build that query for you. It's a simple copy and paste away from your static site generator. So makes it really, really easy to interact with, TakeShape's API. They have a lot of other great functionality as well, you should definitely go and check them out. And you can do that by hitting up takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack. Bryan Robinson 25:21 I also want to thank our guests, Daniel again, and thank all the amazing listeners in the JAMstack community. Remember, if you're enjoying this podcast, give it a star a heart an upvote or review in your podcast app of choice to help new folks find their way to listening in and with that, we're gonna see you in the new year but I hope you keep doing amazing things in the JAMstack.Transcribed by https://otter.aiIntro/outtro music by bensound.comSupport That's my JAMstack by donating to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/thats-my-jamstack

The online community is one of the biggest forces behind bourbon growth. This is where people go to learn more, ask questions, make connections, and find new and interesting bourbons to try. Reddit has been a platform for those conversations for a long long time. The popularity of the /r/bourbon subreddit has now eclipsed over 109,000 members and it’s continually growing. We sit down with T8ke, one of the moderators of the /r/bourbon subreddit, to get a glimpse into a moderator's daily life. We look into the type of content that gets upvotes, how the AMAs work, and how being anonymous plays a role vs Facebook where it’s your actual name and profile. Join the sub https://www.reddit.com/r/bourbon/. Show Partners: Barrell Craft Spirits has won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there, but don’t take their word for it and find out for yourself. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Whiskey Advocate Top 20: http://whiskyadvocate.com/top20/ This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about whiskey marketing. Tell us how you got into bourbon? What led you to discover more? What type of content do you see on Reddit? Is there a newbie factor? Do people really like the reviews? Who is the typical person checking out these reviews? What does AMA stand for? What were the top AMAs? Tell us about the Reddit culture. Talk about the anonymous factor. Are there any issues since it is anonymous? Are there sales in the forums? What kind of growth are you seeing in the forum? What topics are popular? Why do so many people on Reddit hate Fred Minnick? Have bourbon posts ever been on the front page of Reddit? How much time do you spend moderating? How many posts do you get during release season? When people post do you have to approve it? Who has it worse, Facebook or Reddit mods? 0:00 200 episodes in I'd have it you know, it's process down, but 0:03 we'll get it man I still got my shit together so it's fine. 0:08 Sounds good. 0:20 Welcome back everybody it is Episode 230 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny and I hope that you and everyone out there had a great Thanksgiving. And now you're preparing for the holiday rush. I put my visa and my American Express card to work this past week. And I know that there were a lot of bourbon Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals out there too. So I hope you all got something good and you have something to sip on for the rest of the month leading into 2020. Now, let's hit a little bit the news. Whiskey advocate has released their top 20 whiskies of 2019 and I'm pleased to say that five of the top 10 are bourbon, including old Ezra seven Woodford reserves master collection batch proof, the New Heaven Hill bottled and bond seven year for rose a small batch select and topping it off at the number one spot, which is kind of surprising to a lot of people is George Nichols bottled and bond. 1:15 Now we're big fans of dickhole over here but 1:18 it didn't win our whiskey of the year. Nor was it our favorite in the bottle and bond blind we did back on episode 224. We're going to be releasing our results on December 26. For our end of the year podcast, you can get the link to whiskey advocates top 20 within our show notes for gate whiskey company is releasing a new expression in collaboration with Kelvin cooperage called split Steve bourbon. The name comes from three different barrels that Kelvin deconstructed and built new casks. These barrels included number four and number two char barrels in a series of medium toast finishes. They took these barrels and rebuilt the cask and almost like a zebra like pattern. The whiskey however, is a A five and a half year in 12 year Kentucky Bourbons bottled at barrel strength of 115.6 proof with a total of this release with 2700 bottles. They will only be available on shelves in Kentucky and Tennessee. And they have a suggested retail price of $175. And bourbon is all about community and the online community is one of the biggest forces behind its growth. This is where people go to learn more ask questions and make connections and also find out new and interesting Bourbons to try off other people's recommendations and read it has been a platform for those conversations for a long time. The popularity of bourbon subreddit has now eclipsed over 109,000 members, and it's continually growing. On today's episode I sit down with take he's one of the moderators of the bourbon forum on Reddit. And we get a glimpse into a daily life of a bourbon subreddit moderator we look into the type of the content gets a lot of uploads, how ama's or ask me any things work, how being anonymous plays a role versus Facebook where it's your actual name and profile in the mind, plus a few other goodies that are kind of surprises. I'm going to keep in there for you as well. All right, now let's get on with the show. Let's hear from Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich, with above the char. 3:23 It's Joe from barrell bourbon. Our Bourbons have won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there. But don't take their word for it. Find out for yourself. lift your spirits with barrell bourbon. 3:35 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. I want you to take a moment and think for yourself. What if you are starting a new bourbon? Would you start with the whiskey? Go to distilleries foreign wine across this country? pick out a flavor profile said that's what I want to get. Would you buy barrels? Would you comment? tractus still and sit on them for a few years? Or heck would you try to get a whole bunch of money together? And by someone like I say, I don't know, four roses, not saying they're for sale. But if I had a whole lot of money, I tried to buy four roses. Is that what you do? See? If that's the case, then you're a lot like me, in that you think about the whiskey. You think about the whiskey and what it tastes like how it will mix who you want to drink it with. But that's not how a lot of new players coming into the game. Thank you see, what they do is is they get in a boardroom with all these fancy MBAs and all these marketers who have experience with Porsche or Colgate or who the hell ever, and they say it all depends on packaging. It all depends on the name, the brand and the messaging. Some of these new companies getting into the game of spirits will have 35 conversations before they ever get to the quality or taste of the product, it's phenomenal. These companies will burn a quarter of a million dollars to like $2 million on something like, what it should be called, or what the bottle should look like. And all they do is a fascinated with the one aspect that they can actually can control. And that's the creation and the marketing of it. And that's the beauty of American whiskey is that all these people who are trying to enter the game, never understand that it's not about what the bottle looks like. It's about the quality, the flavor, and whether or not that I want to buy the bottle, not a first time. But the second time. You see marketing and branding is absolutely important. But it only gets you to buy that first bottle of bourbon better be good Get me to buy the second one. And that's this week's above the char pay. Speaking of good Bourbons, I just announced my American whiskey of the year contenders. You can go check them out on my YouTube just search Fred MiniK American whiskey of the year contenders, and I'll be doing a live tasting for those on December 20. So market the new calendar December 20. At 9pm we're going to pick out my favorite whiskey for 2019. Until next week, cheers 6:39 everyone welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, just Kenny here today but this is going to be an exciting topic as we look into the realm of bourbon culture, and really what it means to be involved in an online community. You know, we've talked about having, you know, different places where you go To find information, there's then for the longest time, if you're an O g in the realm, there were straight bourbon.com. If you're pretty new into the world there is you kind of just figure out these ways of getting into these secret groups that are on Facebook. But there's one form and one board that's been around for a long time. And that's Reddit. And they've had multiple types of different boards. There is our bourbon, they've heard Scott swap back in the day, there's been all kinds of changes that have gone down in the history. And so today, we're going to kind of be looking exactly it. Really, what is the community on Reddit all about? You know, is there is there a sense of, you know, belonging, is there a sense of attacking Is there a lot of anonymous factors that play into it that people don't want to really reveal who they are, but they'll they'll want to say things behind an alias. And so we're going to kind of talk about that today because it's it's always good to really figuring out what's happening inside the bourbon culture and really the people that are in charge of Making sure that these forums don't get out of control. And that's what mods or moderators are there for. So today on the show, we have one of the moderators of the slash are slash bourbon forum of Reddit. He goes by the handle t eight ke or take. So take Welcome to the show. 8:19 Hey, thanks for having me. 8:20 Absolutely very happy to have you today. So anybody that is watching this live or they're not just riding in their car, they'll notice that you're not showing your camera kind of not showing your face. And that's kind of one of the things that is is a little bit different in the, the Reddit world that there's this whole like, anonymous factor to it. And so before we kind of get there, you know, because I always want to kind of start the show and kind of figure out and learn more about our guests. Tell us a little bit about how you started really getting into bourbon. 8:54 Yeah, no problem. So um, so I've been in a bourbon for some time. Now. Unfortunately, I didn't start back and what People would consider the you know, the glory days you know, I didn't swimming pools it's a Weller and stuff like Pappy wasn't $29 at CVS like everyone seems to think it was, you know, 20 years ago, but I came to it as someone in college who didn't love crushin you know, Keystone is or Keystone light out of a washing machine. And I started coincidentally enough without any sponsorship, wild turkey What I wanted was my go to at the time. bourbon was inexpensive bourbon was cheap, you could buy bourbon everywhere bourbon tastes good bourbon tastes good and everything which is exactly what college people like. And that was a time when I thought you know, how am I God? You know, how can people pay $70 for 25 year buena hobbiton, only to realize, you know, 10 years later what what what a what a monstrosity that would be that's the value of the century so bourbon was what kind of got me into you know, enjoying drinks with some friends and it kind of works for everything and you can take it anywhere and you know, have it on a weeknight and have another weekend and that kind of fostered my love of you know, drinking things to taste tastes Things, say, you know, drinking things to wake up two days later and, you know, kind of Hope you pass them exams and stuff. So that's kind of what got me interested in, you know, alcohol that could taste good. 10:09 Yeah. And so kind of talk about, like, What led you into trying to figure out how you wanted to discover more? And and what were those pads of really learning for you? Because podcasts really weren't, weren't around. So, 10:25 no, they were, it was kind of interesting, because, you know, back then a little bit, you know, Reddit was, was one of the biggest resources, if you if you google the bourbon, you'd probably find the manufacturer. And then boom, you'd see this Reddit thing and at the time, and as someone who's always been in it in technology and software, you know, read it's kind of the gold standard for sharing good information. So it was only natural to say, you know, I'm on Reddit all the time because of X, Y, and Z and I like bourbon. So I know there's going to be a bourbon subreddit and no, Looky there, you know, it's right there and it's well moderated. There's good content and kind of is my crews always taken me, I think the best way to learn about something is to think about it and write about it and try and tell other people about it because it kind of helps you gauge your own understanding. And that's the point where I decided that, you know, if I really enjoy drinking bourbon, you know, pretty frequently it's my go to beverage, you know, why shouldn't I try and learn more about the origin and the procedure? And as someone who likes chemistry, you know, why do things taste the way they do, and the best way to, you know, talk to people about that, that I don't necessarily see every day is to write about it. And that's kind of I challenged myself to, to try and write one review a week and I thought, Oh, God, if I keep this up for a couple weeks, you know, I'll be golden. Which, you know, now I try and get one a day which I think is fun. So it's definitely grown from you know, kind of a starting spot to just wanting to know more and hoping that other people would teach me by calling out mistakes in my writing and, and kind of sitting down and just trying to think about, you know, what, what was in the glass. 11:51 You know, so for myself, you know, I started really trying to focus a little bit more on the on the bourbon subreddit over there. Just to See if we have any kind of presence and stuff like that. But the one thing that I noticed when I when I go over there is that the type of information is is exactly what you said, it's a lot of reviews. There's a lot of people that are always kind of like constantly spitting out reviews kind of talk about what that what the content us is what you normally see over there. 12:21 So I would say, you know, our bourbon is part of what we call the whiskey network. And in the whiskey network, we try and have subreddits that are very specific to very specific things because some people might only care about serious bourbon information or some people might only care about horsing around or some people might say, you know, bourbon is, is well, you know, I'm a scotch guy and so is part of the whiskey network. Our bourbon really fits to try and provide concrete, accurate information to people who are seeking information about brands, or you know, reviews from users who've taken the time to sit down and write about a very specific products. That's why things like, like means we kind of put in whiskey porn, which is where We're like, show us your collection or like, you know, give us you know, give us whatever whiskey meme you get. So our bourbon seeks to satisfy kind of the serious bourbon person who's looking for not only concrete information, but reliable information, and that's, that's something we try and uphold. So that's why you see a lot of reviews because people, you know, sit down and say, you know, this is my review, and these are the notes I get, and then hopefully, I can find other people who have similar palates who either agree with things that I like or disagree with things I like, and that really helps to start a lot of conversations. 13:29 Yeah, I think you kind of hit them on there. So when you talk about like the agree and disagree, you know, somebody just writes me because I've been on there like there's people that are going to say like oh, like I'm going to go ahead and write a review on Weller gold vein, and then somebody's like, I'm just gonna do one on Eagle rare. So like, is there is there like a, I want to say like, like a learning curve, but like a, like a newbie factor, like, Is anybody shame for bringing in something that's just like basic everyday stuff? Or like, I mean, how does that work? work. 14:00 I mean, so like, like with everything in life and I see a lot, you know, because I have to kind of sift through the post and I see a lot of people who start and say, like, Man, this is my first review and it's gonna suck. And, you know, they're like, I can't taste anything. And I'm like, you know what, I agree with you, I couldn't taste that much the beginning either. And, like, you know, your palate is like every other skill in life, like some people have strengths and weaknesses. like nobody comes out of the womb, like an Olympic runner, like, you got to do some running to get to Olympic runner status. And, you know, I'm, you know, reviewing is definitely not an Olympic sport, at least not my opinion. Otherwise, that'd be awesome. But, you know, reviewing things and thinking about things really takes time and practice and it's really super fun to see people at different points of their journeys is like, you know, this is review one and oh my god, it tastes like ethanol, like back again tomorrow. Hope it's better. And then some people you know, who after just five or six reviews are like, yo, like, I get it, or like, you know, I think I taste these things. What do you guys think? Like, yeah, you know, those are all things that I would think come out of that as well. So there's really no expectation that like a good review is like, I don't know, like stitz a while or from like the 60s or the 70s, or the 80s. Or it's got to be unattainable and expensive. Because, you know, we can all afford to drink that every day. And honestly, if you find someone who likes the day to day stuff you like, and then you see him, you know, taste gold vein and say, Well, you know, I thought it was good, but I honestly like some other stuff better than you can kind of take it you know, in stride that, you know, if you're going to spend 100 bucks an ounce on something, maybe you want it to be something else. 15:27 And so I guess the you know, when you think about the reviews is that do people like really find that something that they're they're really attracted that they want to go they want to comment they want to upvote or downvote or something like that, because it seems like there's just, you know, if there's a I mean, every day, there's probably what 30 or 40 new ones that get posted something like that. Definitely. 15:48 Yeah, so it's actually the communities both that are bourbon or scotch and especially our bourbon or, as far as I can tell our super welcoming and in fact knowing very rarely do I post review or see other people post reviews. and be like, Man, you wasted your time like, Man, this is garbage. There's tons of people. I mean, we get thousands and thousands of people a day from all over the internet that just come to read. And, and it's kind of interesting to see, you know, for the 10s of thousands of people you might see show up on a weekend day, you know, posts only have like, 15 or 20 upvotes. But the people who upload and take the comment, you know, take the time to comment are actually really kind of on the inner circle of people who come to the subreddit to engage. So we have the vast majority of our, you know, subreddit is probably lurkers and people who just, you know, want to Google, you know, hey, I'm sick of fireball, I want to try this. And then they read a bunch of reviews and either decide to buy it or don't and we never hear from them 16:36 ever. And what would you kind of categorize as the? I mean, I guess it's, it's kind of hard to figure it out. But maybe the typical person that is attracted to reading on Reddit, because it you know, if you can figure out is there an age, age range or demographic, that people would be more inclined to go There versus other forums. 17:02 Surprisingly, we see we see a pretty significant kind of blend in and we don't get that kind of specifics and that's not something we're really even interested in as mods is there's not a lot of at least that Reddit would share with us because Reddit ones add money, we just want to talk about bourbon. But I'm, for sure. I mean, I will admit the female population is a little bit on the low side, at least from self identifying people. As far as I can tell people that are between you know, hey, I want to buy my first bottle to I've been drinking for 40 years and I think most people fall somewhere in the middle of that. And just kind of you know, some people I talked to every single day and you get a feel, which is kind of a cool thing even though you don't know what they look like and you don't know how many kids they are and they don't know what their illnesses, you you know, you get a sense of people of who they are through the bourbon they like and through what they comment and what you comment on their stuff and, and getting a sense for that you kind of meet people individually, but we I'd have to imagine that our key demographic is probably like 27 to 55 and mostly dudes. 17:58 Yeah, I mean, I come from a Tech background. Most of the listeners probably know that and so Reddit is always seems like a place that you go for a lot of stuff, at least in tech where things get posted. People ask a lot of questions. There's the ama's of it. And I guess for for anybody that's not familiar with Reddit, you want to explain what an AMA is? 18:19 Oh, yeah, so an AMA is just short. It's, it's a TLA, or a three letter acronym for asked me anything. And that's usually when we have a person in the industry, or we have a prolific individual, whether they're a writer, author, you know, something like that. And they basically say, Hey, I'm gonna dedicate the next x hours of my life to sit here and answer questions from random people like you on the internet. And then we all we screech internally and we all get really excited. And we ask them all sorts of crazy questions, at least hopefully, you know, Master distillers are super awesome. We've had people like Russell's and, you know, distillers, the master distillers and brand ambassadors from a lot of majors still resolve come up and say, Hey, we'd like to dedicate some time just to talk to you guys. 18:59 Yeah, it's like I know That I think I think Danny Potter did one a little while ago. But I mean, can you recall like some of your like your top one or top two or three that you've had in regards of ama's. 19:11 So, for me, the four roses and wild turkey ones have been awesome. I've really enjoyed also high West was interesting, but I've kind of, you know, as I go through things I identify a little less with the way the high West is doing. But you know, is for as much love as wild turkey gets, they certainly deserve it. Because, you know, they were willing to sit down and just give us huge long responses to really technical questions and just kind of show us that you know, that they care about the people who buy all their Bourbons, not just the expensive ones are, you know, not just the people that buy 10 cases at a time. 19:43 What's the over under on if it was Jimmy or Eddie actually sitting there and typing it or if he was just talking to somebody and having somebody else type it up the answers. 19:51 We got the impression it was Jimmy, he said it was Jimmy so you know knowing Jimmy in the Russell's I'm inclined to believe it was Jimmy. 19:58 That said if it wasn't Came party person, they did a great job of acting like a human being and stepping up. Yeah, yeah, it's got I'm sure. I don't know, it'd be kind of funny. I've never seen Jimmy in front of a computer before. So I don't I don't know how what is kind of like words per minute is that he can crank out to answer because I'm sure that the form was just blasting at that point. Yeah, 20:18 well, the nice thing is the way the way we do ama is because we understand that, you know, Jimmy probably is not a lightning typer. And you know, he's a busy guy. So we like to field questions in advance. And we like to say, you know, for a week, we're going to take questions, and then we compile them in a Google Doc, and we send it to them, and then they get to kind of sit down and think about it and give us, you know, really meaty answers, and then they send it back to us when we post them so that that kind of helps us a lot of forums do it live, which is great for people who love computers and just want to sit and type all day but for master distillers who have 10,001 things to do in a single day. It works really well for us to field questions, then we get to, you know, there's always like, would you rather fight like 100 duck sized horses or a horse sized duck and like, okay, that's fun, but you know, We've got bigger questions. So it kind of helps us give them good information and show respect for their time. And then in turn, they do the same for us. Oh, for sure. 21:07 So, you know, you kind of ask that you kind of put that in there as a typical question, talk more about like, a little bit of the culture, when people ask these type of questions, or when people are giving responses, like, Is it a, you'd mentioned that it's pretty pretty welcoming? And I'm sure you got there's always a few bad apples in the bunch, but kind of talk about the culture and what it is to make sure that you can kind of skirt a little bit of that behavior that that doesn't actually provide any real you know, good meat to the subject. Yeah, so 21:40 the, the Reddit, you know, the Reddit culture is, is probably I like to think of it as a little more serious than Facebook. I think Facebook, you know, no fault of Facebook is a little more casual and people, you know, love to post their jobs and stuff. Reddit really focuses on being kind of a more technical area, and we see that a lot in the kind of people in the posts we get. Because, you know, moderators aren't responsible for making the majority of the content, we just kind of see what goes on. And, and really, as long as people seem to know what they want out of the subreddit, and don't just show up and say, like, recommend me a bourbon, you know, that's not going to get good answers. In fact, you know, I would probably prepare a little snark on the side for that, too. But, you know, the the subreddit itself is really good at you know, saying, hey, person, you know, whether you're here to write a review, whether you're here to ask a well informed question, you know, by the way, here's the search bar, we've probably answered this 100 times. You know, the first time you're asking this is probably the hundred and first time that we're hearing this. So, you know, we go through the work to make really nice posts, like, you know, why don't we just, we'll just nudge over the search bar, and hopefully, you'll find what you want, and if not, then post a question. But the subreddit overall I think, is pretty wholesome. You know, we have our own little flame wars and people getting Spats because, you know, ultimately, bourbon is a hobby of passion. You know, you spend a lot of money on a product that you know, is made by a huge commercial company for the most part, and everyone's got their tastes and you know, after two or three dreams, everyone's fired up. About usually nothing so, but on the whole, in whole, the, you know, the subreddit as a whole is very welcoming and very valuable and I think seeks to really spend a lot of time to make sure that people get good information as long as they put an effort to receive 23:12 it. You know, you hit the topic on the search bar and some stuff. You know, there's, there's a very valuable document that you all have that I tend to share with people a lot, because there's one thing that having this podcast, we get emails all the time and, and I'm sure that anybody is looking and really getting the bourbon, and they're planning the next vacation. The first thing they ask is, what should I do on the bourbon trail? Oh, my God. And I'm sure that you all had so many of those questions that you just said, screw it. We're going to make a sticky we've got a we've got a living Word document and that's what people can point people to. 23:49 Yeah, and it's is it crazy to I got to point out one user, I can always, every time you know, I scroll through new I hit New and I see new posts. It's like we're going to the bourbon trail and I'm like, I know that if I open this up refractions going to have you know, a comment with 100 posts that link to you know, hey people that have been the bourbon trail and also here's a document you know, that's a hugely routine thing again and it is nice being able to have a document that we update to point people to because ultimately you know everyone forgets to stop or two as opinions but you know, here's all the information Google Doc printed out stick on your dashboard and go 24:21 Yeah, I mean, I've I've used that as for people that are asking for recommendations, I'm just like, Listen, I don't have time to sit here write it all out, go check out this document and then ask me any further questions if you need some help narrowing it down because it's it's got a lot of information there about places you know, basically what you can expect to get and every visitor experience you know, just a lot of really good information that was baked into it. 24:44 Oh, good. Well, I'm glad it's useful. Yeah, we it really is a joy to just see posts and be like all right, we got a document we know you're going to love it. We know you probably didn't look at the sidebar because nobody looks at the sidebar. So 24:54 it's so you know, another thing about the you know, as we're touching the culture here, and I mentioned it At the top of the show was the whole, like anonymous factor, it's, it's a little bit different when you go to Facebook and you have to have a profile. Most of the time, people are only allowed into groups when they have been on Facebook for X amount of months or X amount of years. So there's not a whole lot of like, fake profiles in there that are, you know, either spamming or they're trying to trade crap or anything like that. However, it's a little bit different on the on the Reddit side, so kind of talk about the the idea of wanting to continue to stay anonymous and not really be really forthcoming with with who you are in this type of form. 25:43 Oh, sure. So one of the benefits on you know, you know, Reddit is almost completely the opposite of Facebook in that respect you on Facebook, you can find out, you know, where someone went to second grade if you care enough and the person's care was enough and I think that's great for people who want to connect and be friends and You know, you don't care where your information goes and read it on the other side, you know, you're on Facebook, because you want to be on Facebook. And while you're on Facebook, you find things that interest you and read, it's kind of the opposite you go to read it because you want a specific thing, unless you're bored and drunk on a Saturday night, and you go to random and just find random subreddits. But typically, if you're going to read it, and you're not just trying to burn some time, like if I have a question, you know, you know, a Linux question I'm going to go to sent us if I've got a question about cars, I'm going to go to our cars. You know, if I got a question about bourbon, boom, I'm in our bourbon. And so that's kind of our identifying factors that everyone is here at have some interest in bourbon. And we get to bond over that. And people get to, you know, kind of push out things, you know, you can't tell a person's political views and you can't tell you know, where they work or if you dislike the way they look, or if you know, you're tired of seeing, you know, 100 pictures of their kids every day because they have a new toddler and they just can't stop posting photos. You know, read it really cuts out everything that isn't, hey, I'm here because I care about this topic. And that's kind of where we all linked from, and that's something I think is valuable because people Feel for better and for worse and certainly, I think mostly for the better, but certainly for the worst of times that you know, you can be free and open and you can have people in the industry who maybe don't want you to know that they're in the industry but have something really valuable to contribute because they don't have to say, you know, you know, hey, I'm chip Tate, like and everyone's gonna go who you know about down Wayne's World, you know, we're not worthy. You know, you can just be an honest human being and I think that's huge for Reddit, especially since there's all these reviews and, you know, sure, you can have some biagio shell, you know, right and stuff, but people pick up on that really well. And, you know, you can tell that the guy that sat down and written 100 reviews cares about bourbon, if you're going to talk to him, you know, he's going to care about bourbon, I want to talk to you. And that's one of the biggest things I think that we gained from kind of the Reddit anonymity is the fact that, you know, we all show up because we want to talk about bourbon or Oh, you know, I run into this guy in our sandwiches, okay, we like sandwiches in bourbon, you know, you know, stuff like that, but 27:55 there really is a subreddit for anything that isn't there. 27:57 Oh my God every day like I found one it was called critters Cappy buyers and I was like, Oh my God, who knew that was the thing. And sure enough, you know, we got ducks and chickens and stuff like sitting on top of caffee bio. So there's truly is a subreddit and if you can't think of it, The fun thing about Reddit is you get to start your own, you know, my buddy Tex, Tex a sir who's another mod, you know, said, you know, there's, there's a subreddit called shower thoughts, but what about those thoughts you had after you had, you know, a couple extra Bourbons. So he created drunk genius and just like that, you've created a whole area that people can come and find stuff that you have in common with them. So I think that's probably one of reddits greatest assets, especially in terms of anonymity is you know, that whoever showed up wants to show it because they want to talk about the thing that you, you know, you want to talk about and not because you have the same alumni or you know, stuff like that. 28:41 Do you think that it ever plays a role in in kind of being the bad side of being anonymous because whether it's somebody that posts a review, or whether there's a news story, and people can they can be downright cruel, right? It's the internet And so are there times when like, that just doesn't play in the favor of what you're all trying to do. 29:06 Yeah, that's definitely a thing because everyone feels empowered when they're anonymous. And we hope that people feel empowered for the better. But we all have bad days, we all have a little too much to drink sometimes, or some of us are just really nasty people. So it's very simple for people to take advantage of a hugely powerful tool, which is anonymity and just being upright, you know, just be rude about and be mean about it. And I have to commend my film on we do a really good job of staying on top of people like that, and we kind of know over time that, you know, hey, I think this guy's just here to cause trouble or, you know, this thirds gotten that and like, let's we need to shut that down because it is easy to get off topic and people are passionate about a lot of things besides bourbon and bourbon can often connect people who have other mutual likes or dislikes and sometimes they like to duke it out on a thread about, I don't know Buffalo Trace where it makes no sense at all. So there are definitely cases where anonymity serves us for the worst. And that's people who, you know, people who just who just want to tear down anybody's day and they choose our corner of the internet to do it and we don't see it a lot and we get trolls from time to time and we get members from other forums who maybe disagree with the way the sub is run, but for the most part, I'd say you know, 90% of interaction is overwhelmingly positive. 30:18 Mm hmm. And, you know, the one thing that that I do see that happens in the Reddit world that is different than Facebook, is that it's kind of like a like a no bullshit mentality that goes into it. You know, if I if I think of like one of the first forums that I joined back on Facebook, you know, Wade Woodard was the mod for it and it was it was buy sell trade, no discussion, no, nothing like if you messed up like you're booted. And, and so the one thing that we kind of see that happens in a lot of the Facebook forums now is that in most of these are there in the discussion forums. Sometimes they're in the foresail forums. They'll post a picture of a gun next to it. And then everybody just goes eight shit, right? Like, yeah, yeah, in. I mean, do you all have those problems to where people like they post something like that and then all of a sudden it just it's a spew of like a political battle underneath of it? 31:18 Yeah, we get stuff like that pretty frequently, especially in recent times, you know, there was a President Trump's, you know, tariff wars and bourbon is affected, you know, and I get it, you know, it's a political thing. You know, a politician has said, I'm going to weaponize tariffs, and then boom, you know, Bourbons effect and suddenly everybody in their mother is forgotten that we're here because of bourbon and talking about how bad politics are. And we and we get that we understand there's often overlap, but yeah, sometimes spreads like that we get a lot of, you know, appears by DRAM and in the background or 900 guns like okay, you know, maybe some thought should have gone into composing a picture and we do get people that like to show off stuff like that, and that's a prime candidate for whiskey porn, which is kind of a post all you know, maybe not A big discussion and I'm a mod there too. So I get to strike down some of the, you know, people who get really, really angry there as well. But there's definitely a lot of overlap. And we get a lot of posts like that or you know, or even like one of the commenters, you know, Kendrick Pennington has said, you know, people who just want to show up and trade off the the, you know, antique collection they got last year, and we have to kind of, you know, kill that too, because some things we're just not allowed to have on the site. And some of the things we deem don't fit within kind of the spectrum of what the subs trying to do. So, there's there's a lot of objective rules we found, and there's some subjective ones as well, that we as mods kind of to say, you know, I don't think this fits a serious bourbon, you know, subreddit and we have to yank it. 32:38 Yeah. And I guess kind of, kind of expand on that, too, because there was at one point, I believe there were sales that you could do in some of the the forums. I know, somebody talked about scotch swap. I'm sure there was a bourbon swap, but kind of talked about, you know, what crackdown happen if you were around at that time? 32:57 Yeah. So um, so Buying and selling was always a no go. That was always a you can't trade money for alcohol. And that was a Reddit rule. And it was also kind of a, you know, hey, what we do on scotch swap is kind of already in the gray area, right? Like it's not, you know, it's probably wrong. It's probably not right. But it's small scale, and we all trust each other and it's friendly things. So we let it slide and, and that works great. Scott swap was for bourbon, it was for you know, it was for scotch to a lot of people, you know, rums and a GAVI and mezcal and back canara and stuff like that, and you could find some really fun stuff and, you know, we do giveaways and we'd have people sign up for you know, like a round robin like blind Easter thing, right arranged, you know, 300 people would sign up and they'd send a mystery to a partner that didn't know they were getting stuff and it was a super fun thing, but right as Reddit got bought, I want to say it was last April, maybe late March, they decided that it was against their terms of service, and quite frankly, and we're still pretty salty about it, but they they decided that they just had to shut it down and they gave nobody any notice. One day, I remember I was in a meeting because I went from no PMS and I have a smartwatch to getting like, I got like 75 pounds in like 10 minutes. And I was like, Oh my god, and then I logged on to see that Yeah, they just did band scottsbluff. And they said, Hey, guys, you know, we're we don't care to tell you why. And we can't tell you the rules about it. And actually, not not Can't we just won't like we're not going to give you the time of day but it's against the rules now. So we banned it so sorry, you know, screw you get out of here. And then it was kind of obsessed after that to interpret what the rules meant. Like because we sold whiskey inventory would people would post other bottles and people would pm each other. And since then we figured out that Reddit has bots, the crawls through people's inboxes so they are reading your mail. So if you're asking people about swaps privately, you're going to get the hammer and it took me probably eight months until I posted no getting ready to do this here is bourbon, a single barrel at New riff, you know, I actually got banned for three days because he said whoa, you know, we thought your China private, you know, even though I had all the information that said hey, here's a retail They're licensed, here's our distiller their license, you know, we're not handling any sales, we're not handling any swaps we're going to let people buy from an approved retailer. I mean, it took probably a whole week I was offline, just trying to get an admin to talk to me to give me information and say, like, Hey, we jumped through all the hoops you gave us like, why Sue? Can't you do your job. So that was a hugely turbulent time, too, because a lot of people only came to read it to try and you know, trade bottles, and some of them still come back to do that. And we have to say, you know, new, new, new, new, new, new, new new, you know, those are the old days, and we get why they had to do it, you know, you got venture capitalists and you want to make ad money and you want to make money and, you know, adult sending each other booze probably isn't good for you know, whatever brand is trying to give you millions of dollars. So, stuff like that. So it's, it was definitely an interesting time. And it's something that we still real from because, you know, sometimes users just get banned and we have to like figure out why and, you know, I have to poke an admin and be like, Hey, buddy, like, like, can you like at least explain it because like, we got 90,000 people like we just want them to be well informed. I want to give them good information I want to know for myself because last thing I want to do is get banned for trying to help the community by doing, you know, single barrels for you know, subreddits stuff. So that was definitely a there was some lost sleep on that one. Yeah, it 36:12 sounds like it that was lost sleep or do you finally get some sleep because you're like a I got seven days off. 36:17 It was it was weird because I was like, um, you know, and the other thing is once you're banned, right, like, you can't talk to moderators. So I can't be like, Hey, guys, I was banned, but I'm working on it, you know, you're just kind of like gone, which is, you know, for something kind of a bad you know, kind of backfires a little bit when you don't know anything about anybody else. You just know that you like to moderate bourbon together, it makes it hard to kind of keep things together and be like, you know, I wasn't trying to do something illegal. It's just nobody knows why I got banned. So you know, there was some relaxing, it's always good to get away from the internet. I try and take a week or two each year to just you know, know reviews, do some computing on my own, go to a lake drink a couple beers and stuff like that. But yeah, that was an interesting time. 36:57 Yeah, in you. You just mentioned something as well. So Like how big this community is, I'm looking at it right now. It's creeping up on as the date of this recording 93,000 members. We're talking at 5:34pm on a on a Wednesday afternoon and there's 478 people online. So that looks 37:16 that looks right. I see. 92 449 37:18 Yeah, so I mean it's it's it's really getting up there. So what kind of, you know, what, what kind of growth rate have you all been seeing, say like an by month or by year or anything like that? With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon, who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. 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You know what kind of growth rate have you all been seeing say like an by month or by year or anything like 39:49 that. So just just because everybody needed one more source to tell them Bourbons definitely a hot thing right now. We're seeing bigger growth, especially in the last couple of years. Since hopped on the Help mode. We're growing faster than any other alcohol subreddit right now we're growing faster than our scotch, which was previously were like, Whoa, this the scotch thing, gangbusters. You know, people people really like it. Our bourbon is screaming past that right now. And I think you mentioned it by the time this hits the air, we will be well over 100,000 subscribers. And we've got some fun stuff lined up. I won't talk about it, because it'll already have come to fruition. But, uh, yeah, we get about 100 subs a day right now. 40:28 That's, that's impressive. That's a lot. That's a lot going on for people that are just trying to tune in and, and be a part of it. And I would kind of imagine that there's, it's like any form, there's, there's probably more lurkers than there are people that are actually contributing. So, I mean, what's the it's probably it's probably a smaller percentage. But I guess when we start thinking about let's let's kind of change the topic because we talked about reviews a little bit. What are some of those topics that that sort of come out that really get a lot of upvotes? A lot of comments. stuff like that, that really kind of spark a conversation. 41:04 So I found that there's, there's, there's four posts that really, if you if you see a high karma post, it either fits into one of four categories, I think it's the first category is it as a review of some hyper expensive unicorn or just really super rare product which, which kind of makes sense? like everyone's like, Oh, you know, on the total opposite and you got reviews of like, the absolute worst whiskey that has ever existed and people gotta feel bad taken out, which, which is fun, because, like, you know, do you truly know what the best bourbon is until you've tried some really bad ones? And a lot of people are kind of agree with that. And, you know, we'll try stuff like, you know, like, there was a bacon flavored bourbon that, you know, shouldn't have been called the bourbon, whatever. But you know, bacon flavored whiskey and everyone's like, that is truly terrible, and you've confirmed our suspicions like, here's enough. The third category of posts is like, hey, we've got a lot of dedicated people who love to watch the TTP website. And those people you know whether they follow skew on Twitter or whether they're just kind of trolling through the website and they say hey, here's the post, this new label was just approved and you know, and the label being approved isn't a guarantee that the project will come to fruition but you know that a brand is thinking about that product you know, we get the inclination that brands actually watch our bourbon from time to time and sometimes, you know, if people react well we see those products and people react viciously you know, either we still see those products and then we laugh at them or we don't see those products at all. And you know, we don't know how untangle that is but people love to see you know, what may be coming down the pipe which is super fun too, because, you know, products every day need release new products and we want to know when we can buy them and the first step to buying them as thing that they've been approved. And finally, the fourth post is kind of just discussion posts or people who take a lot of time like, like wild bird one on ones, you know, his or so I remember one one, Wild Turkey, you know, his exhaustive timeline on you know, wild turkey or we have posts from people like koumori or some chemists who like you know, step up to talk about Things like, you know, chemical compositions of bourbon over time, or lead into cancers or people that really show that like, Hey, I think Bourbons cool but like, let's delve into some super niche topic. And I'm going to give you a hugely vetted, well sourced, you know, document about this phase of bourbon and we try and gather a lot of those, whether it's through one of the moderators, you know, posts of the month, or we killed them, or they end up on the sidebar, but those are kind of the four big posts that make up the majority of really popular posts. And in between, we have people who want to know where they can find blends every single day, you know, people who, you know, you know, you see a lot of reviews that are, you know, that aren't poorly received, you know, they don't get a million upvotes but people you know, you'll see that they have 30 or 40 comments where people are just saying you know, Hey, thanks for for reviewing and I like this too. What do you think about this other project now this other product or expression line and then people talk about that? So 43:53 yeah, I mean, I think that we see, we see kind of a difference in the the Facebook and the Reddit world like in the Facebook world. Nobody posts the reviews. And if you do, there's usually as you mentioned earlier, like 5050 chips underneath it, and everybody's just either making fun of them or tell them they don't know crap or whatever, right. So there's, there's definitely like a difference in the culture there were like, reviews and Facebook, like people just don't want to read them there. Whereas in Reddit world, it's very encouraged. And so it's, it's, it's fun to kind of see that however, you know, me just lurking, I always see the ones that have the most karma the most comments or anything like that. Definitely those discussion posts. The ones that really kind of, like, you know, archit somebody or the ama's or something like that, too. Yeah, but there is one thing that I always find what find funny, and I'll ask you, maybe you don't have a good answer, but it seems like a lot of people on Reddit, they really hate Fred MiniK. What's, what's up with that? 44:54 Ah, 44:55 um, it's funny. You mentioned that and I think Fred's a good guy, but um, I think that I can understand why a lot of people dislike him and, and I'll try and give a voice to that. And I understand that I definitely won't embody what most people have an issue with Fred and you know, and people have a lot of different reasons. Maybe some people just don't like his Ascot and I get that some people just aren't asked got people, you know, I'm more of a necktie guy, but, you know, MiniK has done a lot of work for the bourbon world. And I think that, you know, while he deserves a lot of credit for that, I think he also gives himself a little, little extra credit on the side as being you know, hey, I'm the voice of bourbon, you know, bourbon isn't, you know, hey, the voice of millions of people who like this drink, but I am the voice of bourbon and it is it is my bourbon given duty that I should convert everybody that doesn't like bourbon. And if they don't like bourbon, I should tell them about this other project I love called rum because I also want to be the face of rum. And I think that's good. You know, you got to make money and you got to write books. And it's good to have things to write books about the people also, like you know, because if you read a book that people don't care about them, they don't buy the book and you don't have a house. So it's a complex issue because it's a passion and some of us choose, you know, like Mr. That, you know, Bourbons passion, I want to keep it a passion. So, you know, no money, no Patreon, you know, here's all the info for free. And I'll just give it to you how it is. And I think that a lot of people while they respect that, you know, he's an author kind of seemed taken advantage of the landscape a little bit, and I would probably agree with them and whether whether it's founded or not, books take a ton of effort, and I respect people that have the attention span to write books, you know, I write white papers for work all the time. And, you know, that's about as far as I get. That's, you know, that's enough attention for one day. But uh, you know, I think a lot of it comes down to kind of casually using the spirit and just saying, you know, hey, drink what you like, which is great, that's exactly how you should drink it. But these are the brands I think your best. And I think some of these articles kind of trivialize stuff by saying, you know, these are the best experts or these are the, you know, this is now the Pappy of rum, which like good. Yeah, you know, if I hear the Pappy of anything anymore, someone the other day told me this was the Pappy of servers and I just wanted to punch them to like HR was right there. I can understand it because a lot of people spend a lot of time on Reddit saying, if you come to me with an informed question, I will give you an informed answer. And I will respond to every question you have, simply because I love bourbon. And I get that and I feel that and I know that bourbon is always for a lot of people, and it's a career for Fred and so I can kind of understand that the people who like to rip on Fred probably don't align in perspective with what they're trying to accomplish with bourbon, you know, the people who relax with bourbon, it's their passion, probably won't see it with a guy who makes all of his money on bourbon. So that that's kind of my read on why people hate them. And, you know, I won't say they hate them. But, you know, he is an easy target. And I don't know if it's because he's, you know, he's, he's pretty, he's pretty available. You see him on Twitter, you know, you see him on Facebook, you see him, you know, across the Internet, and so, people always attack and easy target and I think that he's an incredibly easy target because he is sort of the face of bourbon, whether we like it or not, and the face of bourbon makes it easy to punch. So it's for better for worse. I think it's kind of a product popularity but I think there's also drawbacks with kind of taking something that can be so complex and boiling it down and saying, hey, these three brands are the pappi of X, Y, and Z because on the backside that threw me some dollars. 48:13 I can't get speak for the dollars part. But you know, I think we always try to tell for it because, you know, he's, he's, he's got his thick skin now he's, he's kind of immune to it. But he, he works on Reddit every single day. So he pays attention to a lot of stuff and, and we always send them things, you know, and, and we always, we always tell them because we'll send them things and we get people bashing them, or making fun of them or something like that. But we always were always like, hey, Fred, you see this? And he's like, thanks, guys. No, I didn't but now I know. I did. Yeah, yeah. But we always tell them like it's a good thing, man. Like that means you made it like if Yeah, really hating what you do. It's because you know, you hustled your ass off, and you're trying to make this happen, right like nobody else. Literally, there's nobody else in bourbon that's doing what you're doing. And it's not like you're a distiller, you can't pump out a product, you got to figure out the ecosystem around it. 49:07 Yep. And honestly, you know, people you know, there's almost seven circles of bourbon hell and I think Fred MiniK exists in one but like, I don't know, like, last spirits guy and course their distillery in garrison brothers and brands like terapy are in total line, they exist in a completely different one. And I think that if you're going to live in a you know, circle of bourbon now, it's better to be in the one that Fred's and then the one that, you know, we would consider like, you know, the lowest of the low and the garbage producers and people who just you know, don't give a shit. So, you know, it's a product of success. And I think that if you can find funding that, you know, that's absolutely what you got to do, otherwise, you're going to be miserable. And, you know, it's not about being miserable. 49:45 Absolutely. I think it also shows a lot of restraint from Fred to actually not get on there and like say anything to anybody because I know I know he's on there versus You know, when somebody ever says anything, it has something about bourbon pursuit. I'm always either respond like Hey, like we tried doing this or blah blah blah like trying to justify my existence there. So the he definitely does a good job resisting that. 50:07 Yeah, I'd agree and just like anything else, you know, you know, once you put a lot of time and then you're going to meet people that like what you do and you're going to meet just as many or more people that hate what you do and honestly if the people that hate what you do make you stop doing what you like to do, then you've only made the people hate what you do happy so 50:23 it's so the the whiskey category in Reddit is is pretty large. And we just mentioned earlier, you know, creeping up right now this 93,000 members with inside of the bourbon subreddit, but you know, there's one thing that if anybody that's kind of like unfamiliar with Reddit like there's, there's this the front page of Reddit like that's where like the top news and everything happens. Has there ever been anything in the whiskey category, even our bourbon that has ever been in like front page of Reddit? 50:53 Honestly, I can't tell you that there's been an hour bourbon post and most of that is because many years ago, it was very easy. Get to the front page of Reddit because Reddit restricted how many upvotes a post could actually get sued, see popular posts on Reddit top out at like 1500 or 2000 or 3000 votes. And since they lifted that restriction, it takes like 30 4050, you know, to hide 25,000 of votes to, to get to the front page of Reddit, that's great for communities that have hundreds of thousands or you know, even millions of subscribers and, and honestly, 92,000 people isn't the biggest separate in the world and the fact that, you know, we constantly don't have content that people are going to post, you know, 1 million people aren't going to post this to Facebook, you know, this link to this, this lady falling out of the bed of a truck because you know, this dog that looks real cute in a stroller. Those things just appeal, you know, and honestly, as a person who loves dogs, like, you know, give me a dog video and I guarantee you know, half the world loves dogs, but only one in every thousand people love bourbon. So it's kind of expected and honestly, we I think that at least Personally, I enjoy that. We get people who want to come to us, you know, or people who find us through other Whiskey subreddits are people who find whiskey people, you know, people who are also into whiskey and say, hey, go check out this place on Reddit. Like I'm telling people all the time at work like, Oh, you live Reddit like, and you love whiskey, like, go check out these subs, but we don't have the kind of reach where something's gonna hit the front page. And then we'll get a, you know, 30,000 subs in a day of people who are just kind of stopping by and I think that actually really helps bring up a lot of value in the subreddit because the people who come and find us are the people who wanted to find us. And that honestly keeps up more riffraff. And so talk about your life as a mod real quick, like the amount of time that you're you're pushing to actually take care of the discussions? Is it is there a fire drill every single day? Or is it like okay, like we can, you know, wait every other week, you know, what's that kind of like? So I'm moderating. I moderate a lot of subreddit. So our Bourbons definitely one of the biggest if not the biggest, so it's kind of hard to break our bourbon out separately. I think I moderate like 2021 subreddit. Some of them are smaller. Some of them nobody care about some of them are mine. That's just like, hey, if you just want to review and no discussion, no bullshit, go to the sub, and you'll just get one review a day, whatever, you know. But like our bourbon is actually pretty passive. I mean, I probably remove five to eight posts a day. I know that other moms probably removed the same and those are always like, like, Look, I found two bottles, the Blanton's $400, you know, which just doesn't fit through all the stuff. So it's got to go or like, Hey, this is you know, this news article was posted seven times today and this, you know, the sixth the first one, they got to go, you know, and that's just a rule thing. And sometimes I get like, Oh my god, that dude is being an asshole. Oh, he's got to go, you know, and get to remove stuff like that. But overall, it's, you know, I probably spend two to three hours a day moderating Reddit, probably, you know, 20 hours a week, it goes up and down, especially when the fall hunter comes. Oh, man, the fall hunt season, you know, takes a couple extra hours, but it's certainly no full time job and it's certainly one that, you know, I'm doing passively. I'm checking my phone, you know, before a meeting starts from in the hallway, I get to my desk and I see like Oh, you know, my toolboxes said, Hey 10 people reported this post once you go take a look at it and stuff like that. So it's, you know, it's certainly, it's a lot of work, but it's work I enjoy doing because I would already be on the subreddit anyways, so I may as well give back and help make it a better place. So that way other people come and find it like, Oh, you know, this is a cool place. I'm going to stick around. 54:18 Alright, so you intrigued me talk about fall like it because I guess I haven't been paying attention to it and fall so what's what's the bad news that happens there? What's the the influx of post like, 54:30 oh, man, so if there was a meme to describe it, it would definitely be that Game of Thrones meme. And it would say that Pepe is coming. And it starts like early August and like, because like, first off like we see the labels, so you know, like, who, who, you know, next round of Pappy it's been approved or the next round of antique collection. And then like early September, everyone and their mother who has a blog that has more than a few followers gets their

Quick show notes Our Guest: Brian Rinaldi What he'd like for you to see: Flashback Conference His JAMstack Jams: Stackbit | Netlify | Hugo Other Technology Mentioned Jekyll Transcript Bryan Robinson 0:02 Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of That's My JAMstack, the podcast where we ask the pressing question, what's your jam in the JAMstack? I'm your host, Bryan Robinson and on this week's episode, we sit down with Brian Rinaldi, a developer advocate for Stackbit. Bryan Robinson 0:21 Brian, thanks for being on the show today. Brian Rinaldi 0:23 Thanks. Thanks, Bryan for having me. Bryan Robinson 0:26 The "Bri(y)an" episode. Go ahead and tell it tell us a little bit about yourself what you do for work what you do for fun. Brian Rinaldi 0:33 So I am a developer advocate at Stackbit. So you know, I get to mess around with all the new stuff and I get to do all kinds of JAMstack things and call it work and experiment with it, and write articles about it and speak about it. So it's, it's a lot of fun. But for fun, let's see. I'm mostly I'd say I'm a gamer. I'm a console gamer. So I am on either my PlayStation my Xbox or the Switch playing something Bryan Robinson 1:06 What were you playing right now? Brian Rinaldi 1:08 I've been hooked on Apex legends for for a little while and that's kind of my main game but I still play Overwatch regularly. That's another one that is one of my longtime faves. Bryan Robinson 1:19 I've only ever played on the free weekends they've done throughout the throughout the life of it, but I've always enjoyed it. Brian Rinaldi 1:25 That's an overwatch I'm assuming. Bryan Robinson 1:27 Yeah, because Apex legend is free, isn't it? Brian Rinaldi 1:30 Yeah, it's free. Yeah. So yeah, it's one of those. What do you call? What do they call them? Like fortnite? Battle Royale? Yeah. Bryan Robinson 1:40 Well, very cool. Very cool. So obviously, this isn't a gaming podcast, although I could very easily talk for a long time about that. Brian Rinaldi 1:46 Yeah, me too. Bryan Robinson 1:49 So let's talk about the JAMstack a little bit. So what was your entry point into the JAMstack? Or if it was long enough ago, I guess static site generators and that sort of thing. Yeah. Brian Rinaldi 1:56 It was definitely long enough ago. I was probably an early adopter. I wasn't part of the beginning, but I was pretty early on. It was probably about six years ago that I really got heavily into static site. It's a bit of a funny story how I started. Brian Rinaldi 2:17 Because I mostly started because I was needed to launch the site for work. I had just gotten recently gotten a role at a company called till Eric, which is now got bought by progress software. And we were going to launch a new developer focused site called Telerik Developer Network. And I wanted to to avoid some issues of competitiveness between WordPress and our current CMS solution that we sold. I wanted to just launch the whole thing using Jekyll because I knew some Jekyll and I've been experimenting with it and I got a no. Brian Rinaldi 3:01 So nobody bought into this idea. And then we ended up using WordPress. But I kind of took that as inspiration to dive really, really deeply into disproving how wrong they were in making this decision. And it led to me presenting all over the place about static sites writing a lot of articles about static sites, you know, getting involved early on in the whole community. I wrote a report for O'Reilly about five years ago about static sites. And then I wrote a book with my friend Raymond Camden, about static sites I was about four years ago, I guess now, three, four years ago. Anyway, it's all been, you know, so I was Yeah, I was early on involved in that and, and have been, you know, dedicated to it since even though it's not until recently after joining Stackbit it was isn't necessarily part of my work day job. Bryan Robinson 4:02 And I feel like that's how there's a lot of great developer technology origin stories. It's like, it's like I had to prove them as wrong as I could. Brian Rinaldi 4:11 Yeah, exactly. It's It's definitely been a part of my, throughout my career, this has come up multiple times. Bryan Robinson 4:18 Cool. And I also didn't know that you would, you would partner with Raymond on a book. So what book was that you said about four years ago? Brian Rinaldi 4:25 Yeah, I think it's like three I think it came out like three years ago now. And we but we started running about four years ago. It's called Working with Static Sites. It's I think the only thing other than you know until Netlify released their thing through a O'Reilly it was the only book early had on the topic. We're we're hopeful that we may even get to revisit that because I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to anybody who's starting out today. The landscape has changed. So much since the time we wrote it, that I mean, a lot of things will still work but it wouldn't necessarily be the most recommended way of doing things today. Bryan Robinson 5:12 I got you and as a side note to all the listeners out there, be sure to go back I think it's episode three Raymond Camden was on the show, so be sure to check that out as well. Brian Rinaldi 5:20 My arch nemesis Bryan Robinson 5:24 Good natured sparring there? Brian Rinaldi 5:26 Oh, he and I go way back. So it's Yeah, yeah. Hey, we've been friends. Well, not to give not to give too much away. But since we both did ColdFusion Bryan Robinson 5:39 So obviously, Jekyll was kind of that the entry point and into the world but fast forward, you know, six years now. There's been an explosion of all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I assume Stackbit is high up on your on your list of passions in the JAMstack or what are you playing with or are enjoying right now? Brian Rinaldi 5:54 You know, One of the things I like about Stackbit. It is The ability to just; I've been passionate about the topic of, of the editing experience in, in the whole JAMstack for years. Even when I would speak about this, you know, four years ago, you know, it was basically like, "Listen, I know you all think markdown is super easy. And well, you could just you know, if I'm going to launch this site, and I'm going to give it to some editor, I'll just teach the markdown, it's just a few tags, you know, just a little bit of markup. It's really easy." Brian Rinaldi 6:31 And I'm like, but then if you want to do this in markdown, can you do that? No, you can't. So you have to do HTML if you want to do that. And I'm like, and so this now I got to teach you markdown plus HTML, which is not easy. And the whole experience has never been very smooth from an editing person, you know, content editors perspective. Brian Rinaldi 6:52 And I think so one of the things I've been passionate about is now with headless CMS and, or even like, you know, things like Like NetlifyCMS, which has kind of grown into a really, you know, great project. I think that's changed. And we now, you know, we now have the tools to make a really good editing experience with the JAMstack, which to me, that brings that brings us to the possibility of being able to, to, you know, bring this widespread, like, make make the adoption grow dramatically, because that has been one of the things that held the whole system back is, is this ability like even even now, like, oh, OK, I can change it on the CMS uncomfortable with the CMS side of it. Brian Rinaldi 7:40 But then, and then I make that change, I submit and then it's like, Okay, let me sit there and Is it is it live? Is it live? Is it live? Is it live, right? And then it's like, okay, it's like, oh crap, I screwed up. When we go back, you know, we fix that typo is alive, you know, and repeat the whole process. So having been a part of marketing teams and in content focused teams I know like the struggles those that that though they have with these kind of tools and I think we're finally making that transition out of that. Brian Rinaldi 8:13 But besides that I mean honestly I'm gonna I guess you might say old school kind of guy ice I still like Jekyll I still use it. I'd say most of the sites I build are still are in Hugo and I love Hugo and I've been using it for years and I maintain a like a bunch of sites that are built in Hugo. Bryan Robinson 8:36 I said I feel like on the podcast we've been pretty pretty much 50/50 from like that methodology of like the Hugo Jekyll 11ty, the kind of hand HTML to the browser and then 5050 on the other hand of doing Gatsby Gridsome those kind of React or Vue based situation so you kind of fall a little bit a little bit further on the HTML side of things on that on that more static static site. Brian Rinaldi 8:59 More static-y that yeah, I mean, I wouldn't call it more static, I think, you know, you can still do all those things. It's just, you know, it's done a different way. Right. So, you know, one of the things I love about Hugo is just, like everything run so quickly, and I'm able, like, I feel like there's a lot of power in the template writing. And that I can dig into, like, you know, things that, that I I don't have to mess with any frameworks or anything, right. Like, I can build it with a framework. I could not build it with a framework. I'm free to do whatever. It'll work. Yeah. Bryan Robinson 9:37 Whatever you're feeling on that given day. You're good to go. So so out of curiosity, you talked about the the marketing team and that refresh, refresh refresh refresh methodology. Is that constant the inspiration behind that stack bit live thing that the Brian Rinaldi 9:54 Right that's exactly it. So we have like, we already put out a control center that Will that you can get for free right now like you can just add it, if you're on Netlify, you can just add it to any Netlify site. And what it'll do is it'll automatically pick up like if a bill has been triggered, regardless of how that's been triggered. So like, you know, if it's been triggered by the CMS, or it's been triggered by a, you're checking in something to the GitHub repository, like it'll, it'll automatically pick that up, notify you and then you can watch as the build happens. And I'll tell you, okay, it's done. You can check the logs and so on. So that's part of like, that's the beginnings of that whole stack that live concept that we presented at at JAMstackConf in San Francisco. But it goes beyond that to whole editing experience that's going to allow you to edit things in line on the page. Bryan Robinson 10:45 Is that going to be as as agnostic in static site generator and CMS level as all the rest of it is or Yes, okay. Brian Rinaldi 10:53 Right. That's, that's kind of one of the keys I think, to their we're obviously not the only people doing these kind of things. So One of the keys to our solution, I think is that, well, it it doesn't matter which static site generator which CMS for the most part you're using, we will we can support that. Where there are some other great solutions out there, but they tend to be fixed towards a particular methodology. , Bryan Robinson 11:17 Cool. So, so you're using obviously JAMstack very hard professionally now, it is legitimately your job. You said, you get to play with all these cool JAMstack technologies nowadays. Yeah. Are you still exploring personally like outside you have anything running that way? Or do you get to just do everything professionally now and do it during the day? Brian Rinaldi 11:35 You know, I still do. I still do personally because all the sites I do outside of work, even our jam stack. So like I run a bunch of online like meetups every month, as well as like online events and in person events that I kind of do on the side. And that site is all built in ego and I'm continuously updating that and maintaining that as well. Bryan Robinson 11:59 So you're running a meetup groups and then online meetups. Brian Rinaldi 12:04 So I run Yeah, I do run meetup groups and I run but I run an online meetup. It's it's at like CFE.dev, if you go there. They I run a number of different things through that, like online trainings and stuff. But I have a free monthly meetup. That's for developers. It's on a variety of topics. Like, I don't, it's not JAMstack specific. It's just developer focused. Right? Bryan Robinson 12:26 Okay. Very cool. So what would it be? Would it be fair to say that Stackbit is your jam in the JAMstack? Are there other things that we want to kind of dive into in that way? Brian Rinaldi 12:37 Uh, you know, Stackbit, I'm, I'm still digging into. One of the things I find about it like, I've been using Netlify since honestly, since the very very beginning. And, and I've I've always been a fan of it, but I felt like they've been releasing a lot of things I never got to dig into some really having a lot of fun trying to mess with like service. Was Functions and our like I did a whole post about Identity and stuff like that, which I hadn't really gotten the mess with. I feel like there's a lot of pieces of nightlife I that I haven't haven't ever touched because you know, I could do what I wanted to do very easily but I never had an excuse to get dig into them a little further. And I'm having a lot of fun doing that too. Bryan Robinson 13:22 Cool. There's almost like ancillary to the JAMstack. Things that you really need the JAMstack to do. Those pieces are there for you. Bryan Robinson 13:29 So I'm also curious about what your actual jam is your musical jam. What's your musical taste? What are you listening to while you work while you play that? Brian Rinaldi 13:39 Oh, yeah. So So I've a lot of what I listened to is it's very electronic. So funny enough, Raymond Camden, I do this whole we have a newsletter. We put out I supposed to be bi weekly, but it's really kind of occasional, like every two or three weeks called CodaBreakers. Where we pick like New Music So I'm like really kind of focused on picking new songs all the time. I'd say lately my jam would be if I could say anybody in particular so so my latest jam like my jam lately has been LCD Sound System and which is not like new new stuff, but I I don't know why I've like rediscovered them and realize like, I'm like why did I not love them as much as I did when this the songs of some of these songs were newer? And and I've just really been digging that but, but other ones like I've really been into, what would you call it chill out music like Tom Cruise I've been. Caroline pull a check and if you ever heard of her, I've been listening to her cigarettes after sex. They're awesome. Very loungy sounding stuff. So yeah, I mean, mostly, mostly obscure, kind of music had tending towards electronic Bryan Robinson 15:00 And will we be able to know what your what your jam is on a on a bi weekly basis by following the CodaBreakers newsletter Brian Rinaldi 15:07 Yeah yeah so it's codabreakers.rocks and it is a jam stack site rebuilt it it's it's it's amazing it's you won't you won't believe it it's it's it's really impressive a single page but but it does actually he built it I mean it's nothing too exciting but he did actually tied into the MailChimp API. So every time we we just send a new newsletter it rebuilds and it it adds the newsletter to the list and everything. So things like that, Bryan Robinson 15:36 And is there anything that you would like to promote what you're doing? What's going on that you want to get out in the open? Brian Rinaldi 15:43 Sure. I mean, the big thing one of the big things I'm doing besides my work at stack bait is I'm running a conference here in Orlando in February. In check net is one of my sponsors. So we've got like Divya from Netlify is coming to speak. It's called Flashback Conference. flashback.dev, it's gonna be a lot of fun. I've got Kyle Simpson as a keynote, Estelle Weyl while as a keynote, I've got Ray's going to be speaking a lot of other really great people. So that would be kind of the thing I'm most excited about and what I'm working on, you know, when I'm not working for, for work, that's what I'm working on my free time. Bryan Robinson 16:22 Conference organizing is not easy. Brian Rinaldi 16:24 No, I've done a lot of them. I've been doing like 10 years or so. And I've done a lot of them. And my wife, my wife's always like, I don't know why you put yourself through this. You stress out every single time and then you're like, Oh, it's going to be a failure. It's gonna talk and then it all goes well. And then you start the process all over. Bryan Robinson 16:42 I've never organized the conference, but I've done a yearly hackathon. And until I get that, that like 10th ticket sold, I'm just like, no one's coming. Yes. And then we get like 100 Plus, and we're good. Brian Rinaldi 16:52 It's always like that in everybody waits to like the last two to three weeks to buy their tickets. And until then you're like, this is going to be a failure. Bryan Robinson 17:00 And you buy all your all your food and stuff, you know, for hundreds of people and you just know you're gonna have too much. Bryan Robinson 17:07 Well, I appreciate you, you taking the time and talking with us today. Hope to see you more stuff coming from stack but especially around that live stuff soon. Brian Rinaldi 17:13 Thanks. Thanks, Bryan. Appreciate it. Bryan Robinson 17:16 And as always, I want to thank you, our amazing listeners, knowing the folks are listening and enjoying the show keeps us coming back week after week. If you want to support that's my jam stack. Be sure to give it a light, favorite or review in your podcast app of choice. Until next time, keep things jamming.Transcribed by https://otter.aiIntro/outtro music by bensound.com

  Almost everyone has a social media account, making it a good platform to have your message heard. Listen in on today's episode to know how you can use social media to influence others.   How do you use social media to influence I mean not just get yourself out there not to share a message but to really have an impact and influence the world that's we're going to talk about today I've asked Valerie Morris back for another amazing episode on influence and I really want to pick your brain cuz I've got lots of opinions especially about YouTube but how how do you use social media to actually influence people okay so the first thing that I always encourage people to think through is that first word in that that joint word or that joint phrase social media starts with the words social so we always need to remember in the back of our minds that we are truly social beings and we're interacting with other real people so when we're thinking about influencing people it's not that we're blasting them with our agenda it's that we're truly wanting to build a relationship with them and I think if we get that first we can really be successful in the future because if you bring the human the humanity into things it's going to solve so many problems that people have when it comes to trying to make a difference and influencing people with social media so should a person be on multiple platforms so they start on one and then what's your recommendation of somebody that you know what I want to have more of a voice I think the biggest piece of advice I can give people is to really start with what they know they can handle and so if that means just one platform great if that means five platforms more power to yeah you'll be living your life on social media if that's the case I usually recommend around two maybe three that they're really putting a lot of emphasis on and I like that because you can build a good audience there but you also then have other platforms where you can cross promote and be able to mention the fact that you've got these other platforms and so you can attract people from other platforms to go follow your YouTube channel you can let them know that they have it a friend of mine gave me this analogy of he was out fishing and they were at a youth camp when it was off hours and had all the fishing poles to themselves there were no other kids that were competing to use these fishing poles and so they each grabbed a couple poles and kind of set them up and they all had the bait in the water and he was like why would I only fish with one pole when I can fish and put bobbers in with four or five poles and we have a higher chance of catching a fish and it's the same thing with social media you know whether you're bobbers our traditional marketing strategies or you're using multiple social media channels the reality is if you have the ability to kind of fish in multiple ponds and put multiple bobbers out you have a higher chance so why would you just put all of your eggs on you know in the basket of billboard marketing when you could be promoting on social media as well and reaching people in a completely new way it just makes sense to use multiple channels to get your message out there so I have an idea to continue your analogy okay so let's say you've got five different fishing poles yeah maybe you could try it first to try five different types of bait or lure maybe five different depths or something but then which one bites right which one gets you the first biter which one brings in the biggest fish then you kind of can hone in like you know what this channel of social media really works yes or this strategy or this type of content because I really like that approach it's like you don't know it's always good to test things and to try things to try multiple different things but then you can't really be strategic it's not that if well I've got to keep fishing five different polls week for the sake of doing many exactly might as well do every one of them the most efficient way that's my spread I love it no I think I think it's great I mean you always want to be testing whenever you're doing anything on social media really anything marketing wise you want to be testing but digital marketing now provides us some great opportunities to actually see what's working and what's not and if it is working why it's working you can get so many clues just from the statistics and the data but you want to be paying attention to all of those different pieces and elements so that you do know hey this is the best bait and oh yeah this is the right pond to be fishing in with this bait it gives you clues as to what's gonna work in the future and with digital marketing today you really need to be paying attention to those things so whether you have one fishing pole out or two fishing poles or ten you want to make sure that you're paying attention to what's working and what's not so you can make smarter decisions in the future right isn't that the point we're all wanting to work a little bit more efficiently and a little bit more smart in the future so really talking about influence and and making a difference you mentioned trust yes how do you build trust through social media okay so no trust you know we've got some big key holder or key stakeholders in our world today like Bernie Brown who are really encouraging us to get vulnerable and I've been seeing more and more people talking about how can we just show our real lives here on social media like can we just be real your house is not this Instagram magazine worthy you know photo shoot where the setting all day long the realities you probably have a pile of dirty laundry or clean laundry that needs to be folded probably have dishes in your sink you probably have you know fights that you've had with your family in the last week the reality is our lives are not perfect but the more humanity we can show to people the better off we will be because when people realize that there's a real person behind a brand and that that person has real struggles that they're not perfect it allows other people to open up and be more real in return and they're going to trust you a little bit more if they know that maybe you've suffered the loss of a parent or a grandparent and you're dealing with that right now they're gonna connect emotionally with that and it's more likely to be gravitating towards you and your content than someone else who is putting on this perfect persona of hey my life is great all the time and only perfect people are allowed to interact with me we send those subconscious signals whether we realize it or not and the more we can open up and be vulnerable the more we're going to attract people who really are just like us so I have a story that I can share about my onyx and that illustrates this point and it also does opened me up to vulnerability because I'm gonna showcase a mistake that I made and the results I got from it yep and then I'll show a case how I changed and the results I'm getting from it so I've been a part of the National Speakers Association for about six years my local chapter here is amazing and back when I first joined the group I thought ah a whole bunch of prospective clients and customers and and I went with that attitude and little did I know and I'm so glad that I've I've joined that group and in particular because they're such a giving group everyone there is really there to serve each other I mean they're making most of them are multiple six figures lots of them even seven figures and yet they're they're just serving giving away their their advice for free and yet I showed up there hey you guys all need to buy from me no one else showed up like that with me sure and you know what I got some customers out of it I did get some customers out of the group but I also I didn't become a part of the group I wasn't family like they'll consider this tribe this group family and yet I totally felt like an outsider and I recognized it early on but they didn't have the right mindset so a year later you know what I'm gonna give this group a website for free and back then I had a web design company designed a website for the group you know what I did it because I'm one that I wanted them to say hey look what Nate did he's awesome we should buy websites from him and it's taken me a while I'll just be upfront that it took me a while to really understand the value of showing up to serve and is showing up to give without wanting anything return of course I want something but in the last year I've shown up to other groups where I've really just loved being a part of the group I love showing up in a community and I've given without expecting anything in return and I'll share one thing specific a friend of mine Michelle needed help writing scripts for some videos and I said sometime I just took took like six hours and I just helped her go through and read all the scribbs it's a painful process yeah it was enjoyable in the sense that I got to help her but it's not something that I typically enjoy doing I didn't expect anything out of it yeah well a few days later we were both at the same conference and she was dropping my name everyone about this about being a YouTube expert and I just I was so grateful that I showed up and served not expecting anything returning yet I just like I love I love being loved I love being loved my point into going into all that story is I found both with showing up to serve and then being vulnerable then I want to share my mistakes I've built some really close relationships I'm really good that you mentioned Burnie Brown yeah I've strengthened the relationship with my wife with my friends I built closer relationships than I thought were possible with with business associates in contact simply because I'm not afraid to show my mistakes I mean we're filming in a studio here this is an Airbnb that we use as our studio and we make it look nice but the reality is that you know we're not polished and perfect everywhere we do have mistakes and flaws and so I appreciate you bring those parts up so you really do think that that's important for making an impact I think it's essential for building an impact I mean if you're not willing to go deep with people and be real how are you gonna expect them to be real in return and if you're not out there building real relationships what's the point it's a pretty sad existence and so I don't know I personally would rather have a bunch of real friends than a bunch of fake colleagues when you think about just it kind of in summary of this topic you think about celebrity endorsements of the past and they still exist yes but we're into a big transition now of real influencers I mean take somebody like Will Smith Will Smith's a big celebrity but he's been creating a personal brand now he's got his own YouTube channel and he's doing so many things right compare that to I don't know I don't want to pick on another celebrity but just on another celebrity that's never on social media it doesn't actually connect if they heard a like promote a product or something and say hey youshould go do this activity or it's like okay you know but but Will Smith,Will Smith talks about it you know that makes sense. Oh totally I mean think about a reality TV has become this huge thing in the last few decades nowadays you get reality TV every moment on social media and so if someone's willing to embrace that and go with hey people are wanting to see the real part of your life you can really build a great audience and therefore it you have the ability to influence. Hopefully, you enjoyed this video. I've got two things I want to recommend first is Valerie's book on Amazon We're All Ears and then the other thing is if you really want to make a big impact on YouTube you've got to do keyword research I talked about that in other videos but I have a resource I want to give you for free it's my keyword research guide so go ahead and click on the link below you'll get that for free and that will really help you build your influence on YouTube.

In this weeks episode Lisa Tamati and Neil Wagstaff talk about the benefits and disadvantages of using the various technologies available to improve your training results and optimise your performance. From watches to apps and heart rate monitoring they look at the good the bad and the ugly of using these tools. Here is the link to the blog on the Heart Rate Reserve Method of monitoring your training intensity https://www.lisatamati.com/blog/post/45209/A-quick-rule-of-thumb-guide-to-monitor-your-training-intensity/   We would like to thank our sponsors Running Hot - By Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff If you want to run faster, longer and be stronger without burnout and injuries then check out and TRY our Running Club for FREE on a 7 day FREE TRIAL Complete holistic running programmes for distances from 5km to ultramarathon and for beginners to advanced runners.   All include Run training sessions, mobility workouts daily, strength workouts specific for runners, nutrition guidance and mindset help Plus injury prevention series, foundational plans, running drill series and a huge library of videos, articles, podcasts, clean eating recipes and more.   www.runninghotcoaching.com/info and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel at Lisa's Youtube channel  www.yotube.com/user/lisatamat and come visit us on our facebook group   www.facebook.com/groups/lisatamati Epigenetics Testing Program by Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff. Wouldn’t it be great if your body came with a user manual? Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? These are just some of the questions you’ll uncover the answers to in the Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There’s a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the “future of personalised health”, as it unlocks the user manual you’ll wish you’d been born with! No more guess work. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyse body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home Find out more about our  Epigenetics Program and how it can change your life and help you reach optimal health, happiness and potential at: https://runninghotcoaching.com/epigenetics You can find all our programs, courses, live seminars and more at www.lisatamati.com   Transcript of the show Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati brought to you by Lisa Tamati.com. Speaker 2: (00:12) Hi everyone. Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits once again with my business partner Neil Wagstaff in Havelock North. How's it going Neil? Speaker 3: (00:20) It's good. Thanks Lis I am good. Speaker 2: (00:22) Good. And we've got another great show for you today. What are we talking about today? Neil Speaker 3: (00:26) We're going to be talking about using technology. Technology is a great thing. It can be a scary thing. It can be something that can, we can use to our advantage but also if it's used inappropriately it can, it can really slow us down with, with getting the results and performance we want. Speaker 2: (00:41) Yeah. So technology and we have to qualify that in regards to training. Now we're talking about, I'm using technology didn't relate here unnecessary evil in our world, but we are actually going to be talking about things like your Watchers, your heart rate monitors and your strivers and net, my runs and, and apps and, and that type of thing. And how to, how to use it and what benefits they bring, the pros and the cons of doing it. And how we use it a little bit with our athletes, with some of them and not with others. And why that is. So Neo, what watch do you use for starters? What's your favorite? Speaker 3: (01:18) I'm a Garmin fan. I've been a karma fan probably for past four or five years now. And it allows, it gives me the information I want and I'll find the, eh, for the length of runs I'm doing it, it gives me, gives me good battery life, a lot of the accuracy and a lot the lot of feedback it gives me. Speaker 2: (01:35) Yeah, I've got a Alma Gammon girl toe Garmin four runner two, three five as my one. And I'm not a big statistic person generally, so like you're a lot more statistics orientated than they may personality wise, but I still find it things like, you know, your sleep and your sleep quality and how deep you are sleeping and some of those sort of aspects. Good. As well as your heart rate monitor when you're training. But I don't get absolutely hung up on all the statistics like some people do and some people that, so that's a benefit. So we're both Garmin fans but there are a lot of other great watches out there, some too well some of the others polar you know, having a watch that as a sport orientated, watch that you can use it whether you're doing lap times, if you want to control your heart rate all of these things can be beneficial. Speaker 2: (02:24) List. Talk a little bit about heart rate monitoring, how you can use that to monitor the intensity of your training. We've just put up a blog on our website, at www.lisatamati.com which looks a little bit, it was a quick meant to the quick guide to how to sort of workout how intense your training is based on your age. And this is a bit of a, you know, a guide, not to be Satan concrete, but Neil, do you want us to discuss that a little bit and how that happened? Yeah, Speaker 3: (02:58) Let me, I mean the beauty of beauty of watches these days is if you're giving the watch tracker your information, so you, when you set up your watch, it'll ask you if you're age and ask you if your resting heart rate ask you for various different types of information. So the watch will give you very good idea on training zones anyway. What we're not so good at a lot of the time is following those. So if your watch tells you you need some recovery, then listen to what it's what it's saying. So the, the idea being that once you got your heart rates in there, then if your program says you should be doing a high intensity interval training session, then you're going to be operating up at 85 90% of your, your max heart rate. If you should be doing a recovery run. And that could be lower down at 55 60 maybe top 65% of your maximum heart rate. Speaker 3: (03:44) So the beauty of the watch is it will give you all that information so you can use the watch based on your programs. So right, these are the designs and areas I want to work in. If you're not using a watch though and you just want a snapshot of how hard you should be working, then you can use some simple formulas out there. We use the heart rate reserve method or Caveda method. And what we're looking at there is I'm just doing a simple two 20 minus your age punched only two 20 minus your age. You then take off your heart rate and so your resting heart rate and work out your percentages from there. And most people would recommend your workout from 60% up to 90% in 5% increments. And then you simply add back on your heart rate so that your resting heart rates that number and it'll give you training zones. Speaker 3: (04:28) So easiest thing to do with that is refer to the blog. Lisa can put that in the show notes just that day and that take you through, walk you through how to do it and it gives you an idea of where you, where you should be working. Where this becomes really useful is if you've been struggling with runs or you feel like you could get more potential out of your body, then actually doing either a full max heart rate test or actually seeing how your heart responds on a run. It's a really useful way to work out. Are you really getting best bang for your buck? Good example is when we, when we ran when we ran across the country for for Samuels trust and a few years back, I'm, I'm notorious for going out quick and really focusing and this is a good example of, of how not to, not to use a be watch. Speaker 3: (05:13) I become very focused on my case per minute. Okay. So I'm flexing, right? I, I want to say that, for example, a five minute case and that's, that's what I want to want to be doing. So if I'm, if I'm doing that, then that's fine. Up to a certain distance. If I need to be running longer than that's gonna hurt me. Yeah. So what we're very, very well for me with heart rate is going right, I need to be operating at a much lower heart rate. So if I am operating at around one 35 one 40 beats per minute and I know regardless of pace I'm going to be good for a long distance because I can, I can hold that. So bringing in heart rate into the mix there really does start to, it made my training more effective. I didn't worry about speed, I worried about right a stand the zones I set my set, my watch to beep if I went above it and then no worries on how fast it was going. Speaker 3: (06:02) I needed to know that I could last a long time and a long, a long period. So use it for your, for your goal. At the moment I'm running a lot shorter and I'm more interested in getting results for my four four and five K times. So I'm more interested now in taking the data out and going, right. I want to know the heart rate zone. I should be pushing hard for some of my runs and it should be up in the 85 90% effort. More importantly, I can keep an eye on how fast my Kayser and then again on top of that from a technique and performance and efficiency point of view, where's my cadence at? So I know if I can push my cadence up, my efficiency is going to get gonna get better and therefore I'm going to be going to be getting closer to my goal. So use the information in particular heart rates we're talking about here to apply it to your goal. Okay. Apply it to your goal. If you're getting warning signs, like you're going out and doing a recovery run and it's showing you that you are 70, 80, 90% of your max heart rate. Something's not right either with the technology or your body. Speaker 2: (07:00) Yeah. And this is actually we, the has a little bit of limitations and I know that I,n my my life is, is I don't actually conform to the, the age thing. So 220, minus my age, I, if I'm running it there and then trying to do 60 to 80% of that, then I'm actually in the anaerobic zone according to that a whole lot of the time. So it's a general rule of thumb and it doesn't always give you a completely accurate results. So sometimes like I'll be operating at a higher heart rate than I should be, but I know that I'm actually aerobic and I know that because I've got enough experience to, to know where my body is going in and out. Speaker 3: (07:43) With a lot of our one on one clients and there's a couple I've done this with in the past. The past few weeks is we send them out to do a max heart rate test. This can be done on there's no need for it to be done in lab conditions, which isn't practical for most people. So we use a field test we put in place, which are people interested in. We'll send you the guidelines on what the field test is and then that will give you a true maximum heart rate. Once you got the true maximum heart rate, then we work out the percentages from there. And in both of these, these clients' cases once we've got the true maximum heart rate, we then started getting more bang for their buck from their interval, the interval sessions in their threshold sessions. Because all of a sudden we were pushing up a beat cause like you were their age, they weren't, they weren't falling into the averages. So if you're interested in that, what you've got to be willing to do with that though is with the field test you've got, you've got to be comfortable, get pretty much going to your, to falling over. Speaker 2: (08:36) Yeah. And which isn't much fun. But yeah, because there is that, that role of some role of 220 minus your age, you know, can be completely skewed if you're a particularly good for your age, hopefully that's what it's showing me and it's therefore not quite appropriate. So just understanding the limitations of the test. And then using it to your best advantage. And the other side of the side of that coin is that you can become so tied up with the science. And we have some, some of our athletes, a lot of stuff, very much, well looking at the genetic profiles, most of them are crusaders like you kneel and I'm very analytical, very do you want to know about those different buyer types? And if your genetics we can take you through that one day. But very analytical, very statistic buys, very wanting to have all that data and want to be able to work completely with data. Speaker 2: (09:30) And that works for some people, but other people, they find that completely intimidating. They don't want to know all that. They just want to be able to run it and joy and you know, and, and sometimes people get a bit obsessive with the statistics and that can become a actual negative as well because you can be so focused on that you're not actually listening to your body and not actually actually feeling how am I actually feeling right now and should I be pushing this? So it's, it's having the, the, the experience and the wisdom a little bit to use a technology to your advantage but not to, not to be a slave to the technology and, you know, Speaker 3: (10:05) Totally, totally agree. One of the ways I've I've overcome my obsession and addiction with numbers is I I, I I no longer plug my, my, my watching, I plug it in to charge it, but I don't save any of the data or download any of the data. I don't actually look anymore at this point in with where I'm at, cause I use the watch to see where I'm at on my run and then I won't compare runs from previous runs or anything like that. I just look at where I'm at on the day. I use our wellness check with all our clients. So you get a subjective view before I leave for my run. Where am I at from a nutrition point of view, a stress point of view or hydration point of view, movement, niggles, injuries. And then I, I take all that and go, right, I'm feel good to go. (10:47) My scores are good and then I'll just keep an eye on Watchers. I'll go, but I won't any more. Use it as a to go back and track track data sometimes. I that's useful. And for some of, as you, so for some of our opponents we do do that because it gets some great results, but it's very important, which is what you're alluding to is that you use it to your advantage. Speaker 2: (11:07) Yeah. You'll personality chart. Yep. You know, and you make it work for you. And the other, the other danger was things like, you know, or I met my run and Cobra and all those apps that monitor your, you know, your kilometers, you're doing the speed, you're doing it at the, the, the road that you're taking and the comparisons to last week. And then you've got all the comp, the competition that comes out through that. And like, I know my husband finds that great. He loves it. You know, he's always putting his stuff up on striver and comparing how he did last week on that road to how someone else's doing. And comparing where he's on the ranks and all that sort of crap. Whereas I just not interested in that. And the, the problem that can come with that is then that you come, you very much come painting every time you go for a training and you're not actually doing what's on your actual training pain, which said you should be going out for cruisy day recovery day and then you're going fast. Speaker 2: (12:01) Cause you don't want anyone, it's think you can only run X amount of minutes per kilometer. And so you get too competitive and you're not actually following the structure of the plan, if that makes sense. And the flip side of that is also that a lot of people just want to collect kilometers for their strava account because if it doesn't, if it's not on, strava it didn't happen. This is a bit like Instagram, you know, life didn't happen if it wasn't on Instagram. And that mentality can also trip people up because you know, you're, you're, you're not doing it for the right reasons and you're not, you competing all the time rather than actually having a benefit. And what's most important is that you realize that strength training and mobility training, which is what we preach all the time, is also iPod and you are training. So if you're if you're getting an extra 10 K's a week, but you've sacrificed to strengthen your mobility, you gotta be way worse as a runner in the long run than if you had done those. Speaker 3: (12:59) And that's the, I mean that's, that's the beauty of our app as well. Cause you can use strava. Yes. That's actually should be our by line. If it, isn't on running hot app it didn't happen. We can connect to our app strava and Garmin. So you can not only see the runs, you see the mobility sessions completed and the and the strength sessions completed as well. But, but getting that balance, getting that balance as you say is, is key. But just want to come back to the personality types a bit as well, if, because again, for some people who are going through the pros and cons and there's not going to be, we're not gonna give you a perfect answer at the end of this podcast saying this is how to do it. Speaker 3: (13:44) We just want to make you very aware that what you should be paying attention to. The other thing that some people get great results from has been part of the community. So as a big part of what our business and running hall is built on, it's been in part of the community where you get support. So the technology can provide that as well. It can help you do that. If you are part of a community, if you are sharing it on Strava, if you're part of a sharing through Garmin, if you're doing it through running halt, then it does, it does definitely help with allowing you to know that you've got that support and accountability around you. Speaker 2: (14:15) Yeah, absolutely. And so once again, using it to your advantage and you know, so without at, so we have a you know, an a mobile friendly app that you can, you have on your phone and you can use it when you go out and you'll get all your mobility workouts, all your strength workouts as well as your run station. So it's not just counting your kilometers and ignoring the other thing. So it's actually quite good when you have it on your calendar. Yup. Tech, tech tech. I did, I did my mobility, I did my strength and I did my actual run stations to where strap variety counselor kilometers. I so that, that's really important. I think. So. what else? You know what I was sort of technology stuff is out there. Neo and what else do you use? I mean like this, you know, running with music, running Speaker 3: (15:00) Well I'll use, yeah, I use when I'm, when we started creating our programs like five years ago, at least as part of creating the programs weren't for the process of checking they were. And one of the, one of the things we built in one of our foundation programs was using a metronome. So for five weeks on our foundation one program, I literally ran with a metronome to make sure that the intervals were putting together the sessions we were putting together. They worked, they did what they said on the packet and they got the results they they should. Once I tested it, we then tested it, well the people and does it work and as we built the, built the programs up, that's that's how it was done. So running with a metronome is great. If you're looking to increase cadence and efficiency and run more constantly injury free, you can download. We use one from frozen eight you can download a simple metronome, put it on if you want to do what I did and remember the beep in your ear. That's reasonably insane. Way to do it. If you'd rather listen to some music on now I now use, I just got onto a Spotify list Speaker 2: (15:57) and I will download run music for 180 beats per minute. Speaker 3: (16:01) You can do it 170 and there's various different options on there. So do a base test, which you can easily do straight away. Go out and count your cadence, how many times you've put such as a four in one minute. Tom's about to, you can do it off your left foot, your right foot, and then see where you're at. If you want to increase it slightly, go and get some music. If you're at one six, eight go and get some music that Speaker 2: (16:21) Susan, one 70. Yeah. So what is the, what is a good cadence? You know, like I'm for people who don't understand what cadences are speeding your feet that are turning over and then the last time you were actually on the ground, the more efficient your running stylists. So if you're planting your foot and again you've got a very slow and big long strides but slow, steep and you're putting all the weight into the ground each time, then you're not going to be as efficient as someone who's just you know, like running on hot coal was a few like and going very fast with the legs. Smaller, smaller steps perhaps, but they're going faster. That's what you call a high cadence. And that coupled with all the techniques, stuff helps you run faster basically in run more efficiently energy. And you know, that's a topic for another day as forms and drills and so on. But so what is a good cadence in your answer? Speaker 3: (17:11) going go on and look now, then they probably get around that they can, well, they work, they get around the 180 plus and some of the stuff that people will read and again, don't, don't get hung up on it. Another example we're talking on technology you shouldn't get hung up on is you know, if the 180 is the sweet spot and anything above that, then great that there's great evidence there that shows that. However, what we'd rather you do is see where you right now. So we are fans of meeting you where you are at right now and then helping you improve from there. We've had great wins with people improving their cadence from one six eight one seven five and now they're running pain free, no injuries. And the pain that they had had is gone. Speaker 3: (17:56) And they're quite comfortable. Do they need to get up to one I80. they might get small wins, but if they're happy where they are, it's about the individual. So please, when you're looking at all your numbers on your watch, your heart rate, your speeds, your cadence, however you're doing it, and whatever type of technology are you using, please use yourself as the baseline. Don't worry about what anyone else is doing and understand, which we've talked about on other podcasts. Your why. So don't worry about, I speak, we speak to a lot of people that want to get here because that's what, that's what the world says I should do. That's what you're told. You do get to where you want to be because it's your purpose and it's your why and understand that yeah. Improving cadence will help. Having a bit of a heart rate will help, but it should be better in relation to where you want it to be too. Speaker 2: (18:43) Yeah. Yeah. We don't want to have to be an Olympic athlete so we can stop. Where we are at, and it's comparing you to you always, and we're very big on that anyway. That it's not about comparing yourself to every other person on the planet. It's about, you know, doing, doing the base for your body at this time and for your goals that you've got. Sit out for us. What other technology? I'm just trying to rack my brain of different technologies that are out there. I mean, what's your take on running with music? In regards, like for safety on like not a great fan of, of wearing headphones or having things in your ear when you're running on roads and stuff. And even on, even in the Bush, like if you've got both ears covered, I sometimes run with like one athletic in one ear. Speaker 2: (19:30) It's, you know, I like to be aware of my surroundings and you're just sometimes with your toe into the music and it can be really motivating. It can be really good, but you watch out for traffic. Right. Cause you know, I have been hit once and, and when I was running through New Zealand in Oakland and I had my things on and I just didn't hear this car come around the corner and hit me. Luckily I wasn't injured, but you know, it could have been different. And that's cause I hate the things in my ear. And even in nature, I like to, there's this subtle things that your brain picks up when it's actually tuned into your environment and when you put in something in your ears and it can broke out that part of the perception that's on their almost subconscious level. And you can, you know, not hear the, somebody coming up behind you or this, you know, those sort of things. So just being aware of your safety or at all times if you have got stuff in your ear. Speaker 3: (20:23) Yeah, correct. That's , and again, it will be very personal. It'd be very much down to people's people's health type profile and where they're at, what weights, what makes them right. But I think the key message there from, as you say, is make sure it's, it's safe. It's and you aware the environments around you. If you really are gonna need your senses, then don't block them. But if you're running in a safe environment that you know, you know where you're going, you know what you're doing, your notes, you know it's very safe then and music helps you then then use it to help you. It definitely helps me. I'm a huge fan of running your music but there's certain times or a one if I'm running certain areas or yeah, place, I don't know. But it does that, it allows me to relax and get into my, in smaller [inaudible] Speaker 2: (21:12) I was just going to go to a, in regards to technology Speaker 3: (21:17) And I've lost my train of thought. I think the, the, the bits we've covered there leaves with the, you know, the, the main ones of what is the main message we wanted people to take away from this was understanding how to use it to your advantage, understand the, how to apply it to your to your programming, to your goal, to your why. And I think what you mentioned there as well, the, the so many apps out there to help you with your, with your running, with your, with your fitness, with your health fits, choose things based on your why. I think it should be the, the clear message. If you're going to add a tool into the mix with your training, the tool should help you get to your why, your goal, your purpose a whole lot quicker. If the tool is you're just adding it in because everyone else is using it, then if it's not going to give you any value, don't use it if it gives you value personally and that's where we can help because for some people with our programming where we're so right, heart rate training is definitely for you. Speaker 3: (22:16) For others, we wouldn't even, some people, some of our clients I've actually told to throw the Watchers way but more, we don't want to put it away in a drawer. You're not using that for the next six months because it's confusing issue. Yep. Others we say, right, you need to go and buy a watch. But that's because it's very relevant to their, to their why and what they want to achieve. So when you make new choices, make it based on what you want to, what you want to achieve. Speaker 2: (22:37) Listening to your body is always a good message. I think that's probably covered that set subject. Any last words that you wanted to put up and then any other areas that you wanted to cover off under this? Speaker 3: (22:50) No, I don't think we were just bringing people back to full circle to what you finished with there on our a wellness check. So do what you're getting from a technological point, technology point of view. Please, please, please listen to what your body's saying. So our wellness check allows you to do that from a very subjective point of view. So going through a simple checklist of where your body is at each day, we'll let you know where you're at. Trust your trust your heart, and trust your gut with your decisions as well. And that's probably a whole, whole another side. Speaker 2: (23:21) That's the whole another subject. At the moment studying. Yeah. Are you Speaker 3: (23:28) Making your decisions? They, your gut will tell you things. Your brain tells you things and your heart definitely tells you things. But those are those three things where you're making your decisions and includes around the technology. The technology might be worth telling you one thing, but the gut, the heart, the brain one, all three might be telling you another, don't stop listening to this because Speaker 2: (23:48) We've got the technology Speaker 3: (23:49) Well, the technology say tell you something. No one knows you better than you. I don't care what any coach says. Any thoughts or any health professional, the person that knows you better than anyone else's you. So you, you've got all the answers. You just need to choose which tools you're going to take to get those answers. Does that make sense? Speaker 2: (24:07) And you need to trust your instincts and your intuition and use the need to understand when you're being just lazy or when you've been actually sensible. You know? And this is what the wellness check helps people do. So for those who haven't heard us talk about our wellness chip before, it's just basically a spritz switch spreadsheet that you look at every day. That ticks off is an eight different areas I think. So hydration, nutrition, sleep your stress levels, whether you got any injuries and you're writing yourself on a scale of one to 10 now one being not so good, 10 being on point. And if your hydration and nutrition and you had a bad sleep and you had been stressed to hell at work and you meet to go out and do a really intense long session, then that's not a good combination. So you might want to shift days around. Speaker 2: (24:50) And so this gives us a a day by day a taste, a few like a quick one minute taste to say, yep, these are my numbers and Whoa, I'm not doing too well today. I'm feeling a little bit often. My hydration wasn't good and I had a really shitty nights and order this for the staff and then I probably shouldn't go and smash my body on top of it. In the past, I used to, if I didn't feel good, I used to go harder. You know, if I, if I had had a couple of drinks a day before, then I'd gone special South, even worse because I'd been bad. There's actually a really dumb thing to do cause your body's already under stress and you're actually overstressing on top of the streets. And the number one intimate of performance is stress. The number one enemy of, of everything alive as stress. Speaker 2: (25:37) If we have too much stress in our bodies, our digestion doesn't work properly, our immune system doesn't work properly. Intuitive nature doesn't work properly. And Brian Stein say everything, it's got tunnel vision. You can't make decisions. All of these things. So we don't want to be adding to the streets liberals in their body. We want to be working with optimizing our performance and this wellness cheek. I'll put a link in the show notes or you can contact us to get one of those as well. But that's a really good subjective way. You know, old SKO, not part of technology but just a subjective way to test everything. Speaker 3: (26:13) But if your technology laces, if you're, the technology you've got is doing the job, it should, when you test you, when you go through that subjective score, you, if you get it right and you've got in tune with your body, and that's the whole point of going through this we want are the people that are working with us and the people that are listening to us to be in tune with their body. If you're in tune with it, then you've got this right and your scores are low, your watch should be telling you you need sleep and rest. If you, if you, if you scored high, then you'll look at your watch and say, yeah, go run and go and go heart. And that's what important want to get. Where we want to get everyone to is that they're that in tune, that they listen to the body, that that needs the technology. But the technology is just confirming that this is, this is, this is good. You're doing well. Speaker 2: (26:55) It's better to go to a yoga session today, then go into a city, Karen maybe, right? Speaker 3: (26:59) Yeah, and vice versa. Sometimes it's best thought. You go out and you do your 30 K run cause everything's stacking up as it should. Speaker 2: (27:06) Yeah. Alright, well thanks Neil. It's been a great little subject for the today's podcast. I hope you enjoyed that. Just a heads up guys. I had the real great privilege them a couple of days ago being on a do at church radio and just want to give a plug to met and a Eugene over at [inaudible]. It's radio. Fantastic Comcast. Make sure you go and check out that episode that I did with them and also all of their other great guests that that had on there. I think the guys are brilliant. I'm going to have them on my show shortly. So watch out for that and yeah, make sure you go back and check out all the other great podcasts episodes that we've done on here. We've had a couple of great weeks with JJ Virgin last week and Tom Cronin, who's the producer of the portal, a massive worldwide huge movie coming out very, very soon. Speaker 2: (27:52) So you don't want to miss out on all that action. And if we can ask you guys a favor, please go and do a writing and review for the show on iTunes. That really, really helps the show get exposure, get a better rating and all those things are really, really important for the show. So if you enjoy that and you like what we do in the content that we've reduced sets away that you guys can help support the show and we'd really, really appreciate it. And there's always, if you want to reach out to Neil awry, you can reach us either via the website. Just go to Lisa@lisatamati.com. Hit us up on the contact buttons here. You can or you can just email me at least the, at least at lisa@lisatamati.com or neil@runninghotcoaching.com. Okay. All of those things will find us. We're pretty easy to reach. We're on all the social media, at least lisatamati on Instagram. Lisa Tamati on Facebook and yeah, really easy to find and please reach out to us if you've got any questions or we can help you with your journey. We'd love to do that. And we'll see you again next week guys. Thanks Neil. Speaker 1: (28:54) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to rate, review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at least at www.lisatamati.com.

Old Fashioned, Manhattan, Gold Rush, Seelbach, Pink Lady. These are all names we associate with standard cocktail menus. Today, we invite Molly Wellmann, owner of Japp's, and Bill Whitlow, owner of Rich's Proper, to look at the influence bourbon has had on the bartending culture and when should you use a particular bourbon in a staple cocktail. We then examine the changes of the season and how tastes change between having something refreshing to dark and oaky. It’s all about cocktails for the right occasion. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at UofL.me/pursuespirits. At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. The 2019 Kentucky’s Edge Bourbon Conference & Festival pairs all things Kentucky with bourbon. It takes place October 4th & 5th at venues throughout Covington and Newport, Kentucky. Find out more at KentuckysEdge.com. Show Notes: Tom Bulleit steps back: https://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article234080232.html, https://www.just-drinks.com/news/diageos-bulleit-bourbon-founder-steps-back-as-abuse-claims-intensify_id129116.aspx, https://www.hollisbofficial.com/ Castle and Key spillage: https://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article234080232.html Willett Distillery Barrel Pick: https://www.patreon.com/posts/29294662 This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the news of the day. Tell us about your journey into spirits. Was there a moment when you saw bourbon become a staple behind the bar? How do you study the history of a cocktail? Tell us about the Gin Ricky. What are good cocktails for Summer? What are the ingredients in your favorite cocktails? What is a Clover Club? What is a Gold Rush and Brown Derby cocktail? What are good cocktails for Fall? What is a gateway cocktail to get someone into bourbon? What ingredients go in a Seelbach? Is it hard to go to other bars and witness bartenders making cocktails improperly? Let's talk about bourbon slushes. What do you think of barrel aged cocktails? What style of bourbon works well in certain cocktails? What's the ultimate mixing bourbon? What do you think about using allocated bourbon in a cocktail? Is there a cocktail to make lower end whiskey taste better? How do you coverup or reduce negative notes in younger bourbons? What do you think of Mint Juleps? What's a good Winter cocktail? What about vodka cocktails? How do you make an Old Fashioned? What proof bourbon do you use in your cocktails? 0:00 Everybody Are you interested in looking at the distilling process and pairing that with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you should check out the online distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program. It can be completed in as little as 15 weeks. It's taught by both of you have all business faculty and corporate fellows. So you're getting real experience from real experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. And all that's required is a bachelor's degree. Go to business.louisville.edu slash online spirits. 0:35 Got all for being out of town. And then you know, my 30th anniversary of Booker's is like down here. It's like, you drink straight from the bottom right now I've been making whiskey sours with it. 0:48 Been there 1:01 Everyone it is Episode 215 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny. And as usual, we've got a little bit of news to run through. For anyone that has been paying attention to the bourbon scene and social media for the past two years, you may have been seeing some turmoil within the bullet family. Tom bullets daughter Hollis b worth has made numerous public claims about her father being homophobic and it led to her separation with theology, where she felt she wasn't being compensated properly for helping build the brand. This week the Herald Leader at Kentucky com broke the news that Tom bullet has now taken a step back as the face the company and will not be representing the brand after New claims have emerged of sexual abuse and pedophilia by his daughter Hollis. On August 13. Paula's told her story on Hollis be official calm that her father has been protected from Dr. ZO for these crimes. A spokesperson for Dr. Joe said the company took worth his claims about her father very seriously and began an internal 1:59 investigation after receiving a letter stating all this from her attorney, the audio found no indication that anyone at the audio has been made previously aware of such claims. According to a spokesperson for the company. In an interview, Tom bulleit said the accusations are terrible, they're false and they need to be addressed and they are just drinks calm has reported a resolution was reached at the start of 2018, which saw worth receive a payment of around $1.2 million. corresponding the amount Dr. Sue says she would have received had her contract been renewed equal to the five year deal as well as unpaid overtime. You can read more about this story from the Herald Leader and just drink calm with the link in our show notes. Castle and key distillery has discharged an unknown quantity of untreated wastewater last Thursday August 15 into Glens Creek, killing an unknown number of fish and this was all reported by state environmental officials. Castle and key told the investigators 3:00 Its water treatment system had failed sending untreated oxygen depleting waste directly into the creek. The discharge was stopped around four o'clock pm, about two hours after the state officials received report. lab results are pending on the affected Creek water. Potential penalties could reach $25,000 per violation per day. But the state won't decide a penalty until the case can actually meet with the company and determine more about what happened. Castle and key confirm the incentive in a statement that they had issued. So those are kind of grim, but let's kind of switch it up a little bit and talk about something positive because this week's we selected not one but two barrels at will at distillery that will be bottled as well at family estate. And this is just on the heels of last week's announcement saying that we have two barrels that will be bottled as pursuit series. It was another hot Kentucky date reaching around 96 degrees but we powered through to select one bourbon and one ride. Central Kentucky tours was our ride and took us from 4:00 lovin to the Willett campus. The group asked to start off slow and build up during our tasting. So we tried 207 proof entry, high corn mash bills. Then this was a little bit lightened body the first one so drew tapped into a second barrel that was on the other side of the warehouse that had a lot more of the oak influence because it sat where the sun was just beating down on it. We then headed over to another floor to try the weeded mash bill. And the third barrel was something special because it didn't have a sweet taste that you would expect Instead, it was kind of spicy, come to find out that barrel used 25% of a ride back set to its sour mash process. We are unsure if we were able to find another barrel is unique is that but we pressed on, we headed out to the fifth floor where it was easily 110 degrees. We got a poor of the OG mash bill and then headed back down to the fourth floor to cool off. This bourbon just had the depth and the punch that you would expect from a Willett family state 125% 5:00 Entry just gave way to loads of flavors and oak tannins. It was a crowd favorite. After that was selected that we move on to the rise where we came away with a fantastic one after only trying three. It was a high rye rye mash bill and will be seven years old when bottle. These will all be available to our Patreon community here in just a few months. Thank you to Willett distillery and drew for hosting us. Thank you to Central Kentucky tours for hauling us around and big things to keg and bottle for making this barrel selection available to us. Learn more about Central Kentucky tours and keg and bottle with the links in our show notes. today's podcast is all about the cocktail. For myself. I love cocktails, especially when I go out to dinner because being a fluent bourbon drinker, you know what it costs for some basic Bourbons on that back wall. So instead, I like to take in the drink culture and try something new that may only be available to that particular restaurant. And the bourbon culture has been getting a big boost from bartenders. 5:59 Creating fantastic concoctions. And that's why we invited Molly Wellmann and Bill Whitlow to come on the show. As we start winding down summer and heading into fall, you're going to get a better understanding of a bartenders mindset and how cocktails change in the menu. And if you got a favorite cocktail during a specific season, let's hear the comments on YouTube or Facebook. Now, let's get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 6:28 It's Joe from barrell bourbon, myself and our master distiller a trip Simpson spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. We meticulously sample every barrel and make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char 2019 has been a very bad year for whiskey, not from a sales perspective or even a quality angle. Actually, domestic sales are nice, and I've tasted a lot of great new releases. I'm speaking about the news from the international terrorists crossing distillers. 6:59 Millions to the bulleit family drama that led to Tom bulleit stepping down whiskies been a daily soap opera this year finding itself trending for all the wrong reasons. For example, last week video surfaced of MMA star Conor McGregor pouring shots for folks at a Dublin bar. The crowd skewed older and didn't really seem to be into the celebrity when Connor offered shots of his proper 12 whiskey. One man hunkered over the bar didn't want one or said something to Connor. I don't know what really happened, but like a cobra striking McGregor's fist hit the side of the man's head. It happened so fast that I missed the punch and wouldn't have seen it if TMC didn't zoom in and slow motion it indeed. McGregor is a professional fighter and is lightning quick, but he punched an old man over a dispute with his whiskey. That's a true turd move. But for me, the story isn't just about McGregor. It's the fact somebody partnered with him knowing of the potential 8:00 consequences and put whiskey in the bottle he represented proper 12 is awful, by the way, and nobody really viewed McGregor's incident as a whiskey story. Rather, it's a celebrity story. But for those of us who cover whiskey professionally, we often get pulled into covering these things and it takes away the romance and the fun of a good drink. And I hate it. I can pinpoint the exact moment when my bourbon innocence was lost when covering the theft of the Pappy Van Winkle and wild turkey bottles and barrels. A few years ago, I studied the police reports and saw that one of the arrested persons was suspected of possessing child pornography. Up until that point, even covering the illegal activity surrounding whiskey was fun. After that, I realized that not even our beloved spirit is protected from shit bags. And I often finally look back to the moment just before I learned the evils of some when whiskey was just about the grains, water yeast stills barrels 9:00 warehouses. How great it would be where I was just talking about the whiskey. Instead, we have the news of the day. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, did you know i curated a super cool auction for the speed museum? It's September 19, and called the art of bourbon. Learn more at speed museum.org that's speed museum.org Until next week, cheers. 9:29 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon for it and Kenny here making the trek to Northern Kentucky in the Covington area at a I don't know this is pretty fancy place. I'm surprised they haven't kicked us out yet. Yeah, this is like the the castle of the North for for Kentucky. So Northern Kentucky. We are with the queen of the North. So 9:52 it will introduce them in here in a second. But I mean, we're at the MIT club. I mean, I was just I was walking in I was like, usually kick people out like me in here. So it's 10:00 Well and normally I'm here routing Normally I'm dress for a place like this but not today. Not today no beach shirt hat and 10:09 socks I wore yesterday that you go on a vacation sometimes you kind of get into that mood you know actually no it's matter. 10:17 We had some some work done in the house today and I don't dress up for the repair man. 10:24 They don't get the they don't get the Sundays. They don't get the good Ascot. But today we're going to be talking about cocktails. And this is a really This was also a a listener inspired idea. Because bourbon is really starting to come in and be a big contributor to the cocktail culture. It You know, there's you talk to any distillery, they say, oh, like it's all about drinking a neat mixing of the cocktail. It's great for this and this and this. And it's also inspired, you know, a revolution of things that we've seen also with inside of pop culture with Manhattans and old fashions that have 11:00 Really kind of skyrocketed as some of the premier cocktails that are out there that are some are all whiskey focused. Yeah, I mean, this story is about, you know, 15 years old. But what it started to change in the evolution of bourbon cocktails is that people aren't trying to force it anymore in particular like ice for a long time. You saw people trying to create like a bourbon equivalent to the Margarita like that, you know, they don't have bourbon readers even had a bourbon Rita. It's it's not you can't 11:32 you know, so you're starting to see like true. 11:36 You know, people like focus more on bourbon that complements it that people are not trying to force it to be something it's not in bourbon and my opinion is not the most mixable spirit. You know, you definitely have some, you, you can't go everywhere with it. It's very finite. And that's one of the reasons why bourbon really struggled in the 60s was because they 12:00 We're trying to get people to mix it like they mix vodka. So they were they were promoting bourbon and orange juice, which did not really appeal to that audience. I don't think it appeals today now. So so the I think finally for the first time, 12:18 at least from what I've studied in the history of bourbon, I think we have finally found Bourbons place and the growth of the cocktail bar. And that's a great way to kind of introduce both our guests because both of our guests are really pioneering and spearheading a lot of the the cocktail culture around this area and around the United States as well. So today on the show, we have Molly Wellman. Molly is the owner of objects as well as Molly's brands and we've got bill Whitlow of riches proper in the cocktail creative consulting, so Molly and Bill, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. So before we kick it off and talk about cocktails, kind of talk about your journey into spirits. Like how did it happen? 13:00 Because I'm sure that there's always always some good story behind this. Take it away You go first. 13:06 It's mine. I feel like mine's a little typical. I've been bartending for around 20 years, but for the longest time I was swinging out by visors and mega bombs and ski with steak houses with muddled old fashions and shakin Manhattan's and it's kind of what we did. 13:24 What until behind the bar for about probably 10 years before I went to New Orleans and had a size rack at you know, down in New Orleans at their moms. We had a real cocktail down there for a music festival and kind of opened my eyes a bit. And then when I moved to Louisville and started managing the bar at the seal Bach hotel, really got the chance to play around with like a real chef. Bobby Benjamin was a chef Tom and really get to play around with flavors and actually have a whole bar full of anything we wanted. We were a hotel that did tons of money, they didn't care what I bought, and they did 14:00 care what I wasted. So that was the first time I really got a chance to do whatever I wanted and play around. And that gave me a chance to do a lot of self discovery as well as learning from an amazing chef. Then when I went over into managing over at crows and mobile, 14:17 worked with a guy named Jackie from old force or Jackie's I can never heard of her. She taught me a lot about technique because I never I didn't take you know, teach myself that. And she taught me really how to start how to shake your proper dilution, things like that. And then, when I went on with a company called Goodfellas, pizzeria for a number of years, they kind of gave me complete autonomy. Let me kind of just run with it. And we were able to set up some really cool things there and just have a lot of fun with a lot of cocktails and expand past just the bourbon that they're known for, but also play around in all kinds of different realms. And 14:53 now here, we're going our own restaurant, MIMO life and yeah, play around and have more fun. Well, that's awesome. So it was 15:00 I know you'd mentioned your time down on Bourbon Street. You know, we all love New Orleans, maybe for different reasons than just the cocktails, but it's on the moves. It's a 15:10 Party City. But it was there a pivotal moment when you started seeing like bourbon become a key staple behind the bar. 15:20 Yes, before North when I started bartending, we were pretty high volume restaurant and nicer restaurant in town in Lexington. And we had four Bourbons behind behind the bar. And then I remember when I was at another Steakhouse within the same company, we had like 10 Bourbons behind the bar that was like 2003. And then like a year or two later, we expanded to like 20 Bourbons behind the bar and we got this thing called a lot be and I couldn't understand why, you know, when we sold out of it, that we weren't allowed to get any more I was like, so I'm going to just order more. We just need more of it before drinking it order. It was it was coming awakening, as I saw that growth and then 16:00 grew exponentially from there. Absolutely. Molly, let's hear your your coming of age tale here. Now I, you know, it's funny, I worked in high end retail forever. I worked I lived in San Francisco. And then I got into the service industry, I got kind of thrown behind the bar. And the only thing I knew how to make was in Manhattan, because I drank them all the time, because I was in high end retail. And that's the only thing that I like, saved me. Anyway, when I throw it in, I was like, just push the Manhattans. It's the only thing I had to make. But I grew, you know, I learned how to make different drinks and stuff, not not to the craft and classic cocktails that 16:39 I've known for now. But 16:42 when I moved back to Cincinnati, in like, 10 years ago, I started this place called chalk. Right? Kind of like right over there. 16:50 And they were like, We need somebody who can do craft and classic cocktails. I'm like, Oh, I could totally do that. I had no idea. But I went home, googled it and I fell down the rabbit hole and that was it. 17:00 I loved every bit of it. I studied, I read every old cocktail book I get my hands on. I love the idea that I love the thing that every single drink seemed to have a story. And I loved that I could, you know, learn history through cocktails. I just loved it. So 17:19 I've I've never looked back. So it's been 11 years now that I've been doing craft and classic cocktails. And I love studying I'm still I love writing about them. I love 17:31 still entertaining people behind the bar. You know, they get a drink, they get a story with it. It's like my favorite thing. What kind of stuff can you study with a cocktail? I mean, you said you that you study me? Like what? What kind of, I mean, is it like a history based? Is it just kind of knowing where the origins of it like what kind of talk about that? Kind of the origins? It's kind of it's almost like a treasure hunt. So I find it you know, I looked through old cocktail books from over 100 years ago. I love to read the first part of there's something about like, how 17:59 Baraka 18:00 tenders really took this job so seriously, you know, it was such a 18:06 every aspect of the job is like laid out in the first, you know, folks the technique or the first part, you know, part of the cocktails, the techniques, the glassware, the ingredients that were used, you know, it's fascinating, you know, it really is, it's, it's the same but different than it is now, you know, and then going through some of the cocktail, some of them are boring. And you're like, well, that's exactly the same as this one except the Ito the measurements are a little different. 18:31 But then you come upon when you're like, Oh, that sounds so interesting. Why would I think about that, you know? And then I want to know everything about it, or it has a weird name and like, Well, why did they call it this? You know, I want to know, so then I start digging, and I start looking through your it's amazing, like all these different 18:48 resources, you can find that you can find the stories where this cocktail came from, or kind of get an idea of where in history and why they were drinking this certain cocktail. Does that make sense? Yeah, and one, one 19:00 story that we've we had a fun conversation about one time what was the Ricky yeah and like how that how the regular regularly this revived ever seen the movie get him to the creek Yes Yes What's a Jeffrey yeah 19:15 what's not going on that 19:18 share share with the audience this this is an example of of like how cool like cocktail history can be Molly share with us the story of the of the gin Ricky's and the Ricky. So the gin Ricky is really interesting one, there was a guy named Joe, Ricky, he was a veteran of the Civil War. And he was in Washington, you know, Washington DC, and he would go and he would drink every night at this bar called shoemakers, which isn't around anymore. But he had this idea like he had this idea of being healthy, you know, and he felt that sugar and sweet things would affect his his blood and make him sick, so he didn't like anything sweet. So the original 20:00 Ricky was not made with jet it was actually made with rye, rye and lime juice. He squeeze a half a lime in a glass drop in the Rhine, and then fill it with rye. It's kind of really disgusting with the right. Cassidy and then eventually it turned to, you know, to gin which is a lot better ice and then soda water on top and that's adyen Ricky and it has no sugar in it whatsoever. Now, the gin Ricky there's different kinds of gin. So the gin Ricky would usually always be made with an old Tom gin, which was sweetened gin, which is weird because he thought that sugar but I guess that didn't count with the old Thompson. But yeah, that's the Rickey pretty much in a nutshell. Let's see that see the the story there is 20:43 a bartender you know, was very focused on his health. And that, you know, he creates an entire style of cocktails. And oh, by the way, where he's, you know, his bar. He's probably influencing a lot of very important people for the time in DC. So yeah, 21:00 He actually wasn't a bartender. He was a he was a lobbyist. And he got the bartender at shoemakers to make this for him. So, I mean, but still to this day people in Washington DC drink gin Ricky's, it's like the best summer drink in Washington DC 21:14 kind of story. And we're already kind of leading on to the what we were talking about. It was like this is cocktails for the right occasion. And so you're talking about the summertime and having a gin Ricky and, and let's kind of hit some of those different seasons of the year. So you've already started off with summer. I think it's probably proved and we kind of just start there so we got gin Ricky, what other kind of cocktails are going to be good for an a just a little say a back porch drinking kinda kind of afternoon. How about that? You wake up. I'm pretty simple when it comes to summer cocktails. I love egg white cocktails. Yes. That know. My wife's language there. Yeah. And I'm, I'm trashed me. I have a sweet cocktail. 21:55 sweet wines. I'm not your normal. So I love sweet echo. 22:00 cocktails young whiskey hours. Yeah. I love biz's things like that. And then just, of course, whatever the bartender is going to come up with like, Pisco sours, I can show you one of my absolute favorite things in the world. Take Take one of your favorites right there and kind of kind of talk about some of the ingredients because I know a lot of our listeners are probably, they're curious, they hear that they hear the pisco sour. They hear some of these things with egg whites, but they kind of want to know like, what what what really entails into this that really like a craftsman such as you all could actually create. Welcome pisco sour. It's a classic from ru ga South America did simply uses simple syrup, lime juice, egg white and Pisco. Right now on our cocktail menu, we change it up just a little bit by throwing in a little bit of the Mexican side of the Doritos, the guava, and then throwing some real age tobacco and weather bitters on top and it changes the whole aspect that makes it slightly sweeter. We actually go to Apple in there as well to counterbalance 23:00 Some of the sweetness you're gonna put any CBD oil in there and, you know, I'll be honest, there's a there's a kind of a hippie Music Festival coming up in like a month. I know that's kind of how it is but we're thinking about making some CBD cocktail. 23:14 Going into that I got that hippie festival just why not? I haven't tried it before and I know it's a pretty upcoming thing. They were everywhere in Las Vegas and we went 23:24 sure of A is 23:26 like balloons filled with CBD air was like the world you know, you could do that, either. It's crazy. 23:35 actually had to like call the ABC office and make sure we are allowed to do that. No, and they're right. Yeah, we don't have anything against it. Yeah, yeah. They emphasized yet I could totally see you as a clever club guy. Ah, no, I think a good coworker. Yeah, I put that on the menu before just people didn't order so much. 23:58 Go for it. I love the clip. 24:00 I just had it on my menu. There you go. So the clover club is a classic from the night from 1900. And it was created for a gentleman's club that met every Thursday in Philadelphia at this hotel called the Stanford Bellevue hotel. Right? And like every one is like the last third has the third Thursday of every month they meet, and these guys would dress up to the nines and they would, you know, all have drinks before dinner. And then they would be led into this room that had this big table that was sheep in a clover clover, you know, set up you know, and they would have this like ceremony, you know, where the youngest member of the clover club would have to like, first sit in a baby chair is not a high chair. And until one of the members was like, okay, you can get up from the baby chair and this is it adults, you know, an adult man, and then he would have to go around with the clover club, sharing cup and then everyone would take a sip out of the 25:00 The clover club sharing cup. I still I have no idea what the drink is. But apparently the chef would come up with whatever concoction was in this like flowing cup, right? That would pass. I have no idea what it is. I can't find it. But then they sit down at dinner and through the courses, you know, it would be like, I think the second to last course they would have this cocktail or a punch. And in 1900 they had the clover club, which is a combination of gin, raspberry syrup, dry vermouth, and and then egg white. And it shaken, you know, so frothy, and it's this beautiful. It has like this beautiful, sweet flavor, but the driver who's kind of dries it out a bit. It's absolutely gorgeous. It really is. And I could totally see you. It's the it's one of my jams. Yeah. Now it evolved after prohibition, they kind of dropped the dry vermouth and then they put lemon with it so it kind of turned into a Pink Lady. So this cocktail it evolved, but it's fantastic. 25:55 We dug it I do both. So it depends on the 26:00 You know what's fancy? And yeah, I was like, it'd be hard to have Fred and I go to bar and order Pink Lady. I don't know. It's just, there's just something about the name. If you don't know anything about it, I think there's a I'm gonna drink a cocktail. It's gonna be a Pink Lady. 26:15 But if you did tell you that history of where it came from, you know, like, here's how this evolved. You know, it came from this gentleman's club. And but it goes for I mean, it wouldn't have it would have, it probably would have fizzled out if it wasn't for George Bush, who is the owner of that Stanford Bellevue hotel who went on to help open up that would have a story in New York and he brought that recipe with him making it popular. So really fascinating. That is fascinating. So that was summer we captured so are there a little bit. I got one more for summer because I'm a big fan of the gold rush. Are you what kind of workout kind of season Do you all see that? Any 26:54 say summer fall, but I mean, honey really falls anytime for me now. It's it's funny like I'm in a very 27:00 Similar favorite cocktails to brown derbies my favorite gold rush and brown Derby. kind of related. Can you all kind of talk about the the different components of each one of these as well as so our listeners understand that they're not sitting there googling like Oh crap, I don't know. I don't know what a because I'm not sure what a brown Derby is and I couldn't tell you everything that goes inside of a gold rush either. So so the brown Derby is bourbon, grapefruit juice and honey, it's really simple. But when you use the honey, you have to make sure that you water it down make the honey syrup because otherwise you will put honey into this drink and it will turn into a glob of a ball in the bottom of your drink because you're adding ice to it. So one part honey one part sugar, make a syrup or honey syrup and then it's about two ounces of bourbon. I put an ounce of 27:47 grapefruit and then half ounce of honey that's how I make my nice Yeah, yeah and you might have a history or better than this summer here a little bit on history but I mean honey sir win that. 27:58 fight about that like back in the day like 28:00 During the Tiki wars and we're trying to figure out how to recreate each other's cocktails and it was so simple as one person couldn't figure out how he was making that money nightclub open and a drink. Yeah, I had the formula. Yeah. It was Yeah, it was between I believe it was between Don the Beachcomber and 28:18 it was in all they had to do is add hot water 28:22 silly stupid little things that are so obvious and then you figure it out in your like your face palming because she figured out a long time ago so for Katie, you know, I know he's gonna follow up with this the Gold Rush, break that down. I mean, gold rush is just as simple as that three part lemon, honey, Jen, I, 28:41 a lot of these cocktails, all these classes, all these things are easy, you know, renditions of each other, just replacing one ingredient with another. You can go to the Daiquiri, which is another three part, you know, just some sort by rum game. What's Gen line? Yeah, it's, it's all these different ways of just doing your two, three 29:00 Quarter three quarter kind of sour recipes and tart recipes. Okay, okay so Fred already kind of alluded to it let's kind of move on to the next season let's let's enter the the fallen winter time because it's a little little darker a little warmer kind of kind of talk about what are your favorites during those those periods? Well, I mean for false, I mean, everything bourbon, I think a dark rum. 29:23 Rum cocktail. What I get into something warm and cozy. I mean, I get into the warm I know it's more 29:30 more winter. I think I get really excited in the fall when that you know, first colbrie starts to come in that first leaf falls. I want to start making tardies all over the place. I mean, already, I don't I do. ciders also. 29:45 That's kind of grabs my jam. Yeah, we get all season local cider and put it like heated up and then we add, you know, whatever, whatever. Like it usually is bourbon or around 29:57 the cider and it's like everybody's favorite. It's awesome. 30:00 So yeah, and people really start grabbing on like heavy hitters cocktails more so even in the fall than in the winter, because I think in the winter they're used to getting cold that point use once third boozy bourbon cocktails but I can use a lot of crazy bitters cocktails in the fall. 30:17 turning 30:18 things like I have a one I do like bourbon and apple and ginger beer, but then a ton of barely bitters and it almost tastes like an apple cider and you just kind of get into those really 30:31 jagged, not like Irby. Yeah, 30:34 like those coffee, you know that the whole tomorrow thing. It's not my jam. I have a lot of bartenders who are like lava Mars and Mars are Italian bitter spirits pretty much in the right way. In the right way. I hate shooting and I got shoot me down probably will get shot for being a bartender who's not a big fan of for net. 30:57 Goodbye for me. It's not like 31:00 rumble that I'll just throw away but you'll never ever see me order a shot for net and that's what every bartender out a kiddie that just so you know this is a this is an industry thing like the bar like you go out with a bunch of bartenders somebody inevitably gets a round of for net and I think it's like someone you know for net has, 31:21 you know as you know putting little envelopes all over the country 31:27 or something but it's like who in the right mind would order it? It kind of reminds me of I saw I saw a picture the other day on the internet that said there's a secret society of people living among those that are still keeping long john Silver's and business. 31:40 So this is probably like that same, that same analogy. So true that places grow. 31:46 Like this. 31:49 And I gotta say, Molly, you know, went to fall cocktails. I was kind of shocked that you didn't talk about a punch. Well, yeah, well, I was getting there. 31:58 I know how much you love. 32:00 I do I love punch. I think it's, first of all, it saves every party. It saves every host hostess at a party, you know, but the history behind the punches are, 32:12 are the best, the best. I mean, there's one it's more of a, I think a Christmas punch, but I started serving in the fall, the admiral Russell's 32:21 punch is so great. I mean it has its its brandy and Sherry. And those are the two main things and then lemon and and then there's a sweet to it as well. So punch means five in Hindi. So five different components or another spirit sweet, sour water and spice that is a template for a really good punch and punches date back almost 500 years, you know, it started when you know Europeans started, you know, traveling all over the world, you know, putting merchant companies into different parts. 33:00 The world the English pretty much in, in India, and then once they get to this, you know this country, you know, the native people trying to make sure that everybody's refreshed. You guys think like people just didn't get off the boat and like, give me water, you know, they absolutely they're like, I need a drink, you know, and usually it was liquor or something that was some kind of alcohol and they couldn't trust the water, they drink the water, they get sick. Yeah. So it was very a lot of people didn't drink water, you know, they drink, you know, ale or wine, you know, or spirits. So, making sure that everybody got refreshed in this hot country, you know, pulling all their resources together and mixing it all together in a big bowl to make it palatable punch bill. 33:46 It sounds like it was just like a means to survive and what punch really became well think about this. So the admin Russell's so I'm gonna tell you the story. There was a guy named Errol Russell. He was in the English army 1600s and he was traveling of the 34:00 coast to Spain. And he decided on Christmas day to get off and throw a party in the city of cookies. And in CODIS, they had this huge fountain in the middle of like the governor's courtyard or something like that or the town. And he's like, well, we're going to use that as a punch bowl. So they poured in, you know, these big you know, barrels of brandy and Sherry spit a Sherry and then added limes and added everything and they It was so big and there's so many there's like 600 people there. They had to get the cabin boy from the boat in a little lifeboat to serve the punch. Everybody got naked, they drink the place dry and then everybody had a great hangover the next day. I always think how cool it would be if I could do this at Fountain Square in Cincinnati. If I get the mayor to let me like use Fountain Square it as a drinking fountain. You know, I could use it as punishable. Would you recommend everyone getting naked? Yeah. I 34:54 mean, gosh, we're not that conservative in Cincinnati. 35:00 Naked fun run around there somewhere anybody's gonna like break that conservative you know boat it's gonna be me 35:09 to all our listeners out there start petitioning Cincinnati mer for Molly's naked fountain party party love me oh god 35:21 well and maybe that could happen to at the party. Yeah You never 35:27 know blushing or anything No, it sounds awesome. I want I want the invite to this party. Yeah, it'll be epic. 35:35 Yes, punch is great. It really is so easy to do. That's good. I mean, that's that's a history of punches that that I had never known about. Seriously up until now. But you know, the other thing that we want to kind of talk about too is 35:48 you know, I guess we'll stay on the cocktails the right occasion kind of part kind of talk about, say, say Fred and I were you know, we're taking our wives out. what's what's that kind of cocktail bourbon kind of cocktail at that. 36:00 Somebody could go out on a date with their wife, nice romantic place and maybe kind of maybe guide her in a way to say like, you need to try this other kind of good bourbon cocktail. Because my wife isn't Are you asking how to man's playing to her? 36:14 I'm just trying to figure out like, how can I get my wife to drink more bourbon cocktails? Right? I know I know this is a Ryan Brian property because his wife is only only drinks wine and she she probably knows is I don't got that problem with Jacqueline and I got the opposite problem. I got home from being out of town. And then you know, my 30th anniversary of Booker's is like down here. It's like, straight straight from the bottom right now. I was rapping making whiskey sours with it. 36:43 Been there. 36:46 We were finishing up a new year's eve one evening, we got home late night from the bar and we had a couple friends over and I was like, hey, let me push out a bourbon for everybody. Let's celebrate as I can just go grab a bottle for some shots. She comes back and 37:00 I'll take a shot all kind of wins and it was a I was it was definitely a barrel proof. Okay, I 12 years. 37:07 You know, they're like the 120s and 30s or whatever and I was like, well, that happened 37:13 a little shorter. But 37:16 my husband doesn't drink bourbon which I married. That's the reason why I married him because you always need a driver. Yeah, that will. Not that much but he doesn't get into my bourbon collection. Except if he has like a tattoo guy because he's a tattoo. When somebody is visiting and they're in the bourbon. He'll open up my, you know, my pantry which used to have all my bourbon in it. I'll be like, pick one. 37:39 world is yours. Yeah. He got in one time to my 2013 Elmer Tilly that was given to me by Omer TVO you know while ago sign and it was like cherished, you know, drank the whole thing. I was so mad. I was divorced and I was like 37:57 you like 38:00 How 38:01 high is like models that you cannot touch is like, she can't even reach it. And I think she knows at that point she can't reach it. Don't touch it. My wife, my wife will climb the shell to get it. Oh, he wants me not to have that one. So she ended up she ended up having a bourbon that I couldn't touch. She got a bourbon women barrel pig. Oh, and, like, Peggy is the one who gifted it to her. She's like, Fred can't have any of this. And so, you know, I couldn't have any until I eventually got permission and when I got permission, I drained that. 38:38 Anyway, I know he's gonna I know. 38:42 We 38:43 got to figure out like how, you know, I think what Kenny's looking for, like the gateway, what is it? What is a gateway cocktail to get people into bourbon? I know. It's a seal buck. I know. It's like, whatever cocktail. You know if you have those. Yeah, I mean, it works. 39:00 It works. The robot cocktail is a champagne cocktail. And it had a story that a lot of people thought was true. And then we found out it wasn't true. I worked at that I was the bar manager at the CEO bar before the, you know, huge wall street journal article that kind of threw out the old historic story of the cocktail. And it hurt me a ton because I use it even after I left the seal Bach to introduce people to bourbon and I've still got people that come see me to drink the COI cocktail. I had a couple who came in for their anniversary the other night and they've been drinking from me for years. And it just hurt my soul When I 39:37 see her. We're just like, fraudulent. 39:40 Oh my god. Well, I think it's safe to say that everything in the spirits business is bullshit. You know, JN true. Your your book. What does it bourbon cure? Yeah, I read that a few times. Thank you bit about that. Yeah, just you can't trust anything. 40:00 Ricky stories is pretty legit because the guy wasn't really in the business. You know the real guy well back in the day before smartphones, 40:09 shit to 40:13 throw anything at you is fantastic but you know a great story is a great story and it does create an experience No matter if it's true or not. So I say Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. That's right. So tell us about the seal Bach what's the best bourbon to use there? What's the best champagne? How do you make it work? I like First of all, I like to use a sugar cube. I don't know if he's a sugar cube use sugar. I don't know I use just a splash of simple syrup about consistency. And I like I like the sugar cube because I love the little crystals that go through it. So sugar cube, I douse it with both Angostura and patient bitters. I'm heavier on the patient with an iron Angostura. Yeah, a little more citrus for Yeah, it makes it a little more crowd pleasing. Yeah. The CEO box even at the hotel, I had it sent back 41:00 When I would do super heavy on both yeah started bringing down the Angostura a little bit yeah back OD became more palatable for the masses so that and then I like to use just for your for roses yellow label for sale bought because it seems to be a little lighter you know worse there for me I leveled for sure but there's something about I don't know the when I like when I make 41:23 for some reason for roses yellow label has a lighter 41:29 lighter something about it for these lighter cocktails I use that another one my cocktails it's one of the most popular on our menu. I actually like the the old force you can still a little bit of spice it has yet to go against the champagne and a little bit of sweetness in there. So well and then I top it off usually with a dredge Prosecco and then the champagne does any dry but we have used Prosecco or dry champagne. And you do use terms like or do you use like in my strike here, I use I make my own Triple Sec. So I triple sec, just a little 42:00 Orange look for so that brings it all together and there's something about this so you still can taste the bourbon but it's not overpowering because it's lightened up with the champagne. 42:12 So any any not just bourbon, but you don't use a little ins and outs of bourbon and when I make so it's not like overpowering people and a half 42:22 and half the triple. Yeah, there's been a lot of differences between these. It's really good. Just a simple cocktail. Yes, it's fascinating. Oh, I don't think it's the right answer. That's why that's why MIMO we've been friends for a long time. It's because we understand that it's the great thing if you know there's there's certain cocktails, you know, everybody like little fashion for instance, everybody makes their own fashion different. They really do. I don't I don't think I've ever had unless it's a bartender that I trained on how I make my old fashions. I don't think I've ever had an old fashioned same hopefully they're making it the same way. 42:58 Yeah, I've done that before. 43:00 Hear that before where people like know we're going to model this I'm like no not in my bar we're not doing Have you seen the YouTube video? The woman Oh talk 43:11 last night yeah 715 43:15 army we used to talk them with soda. Like I used to call that the steak house old fashioned. Yeah, that's how I learned it. Back in the early 2000s. We were you know, we were modeling orange and cherry and throwing a couple sugar packets in there. soda water and it was and this is a white tablecloth Steakhouse that Yang $10 a cocktail, at least you didn't like just take a thing of simple stare and go, you know, like this. I've been a bourbon police, a bourbon place downtown August they were and the guy was making these old fashions. He's just like, it was like probably like a full house and half a simple syrup in the glass, and then bourbon on top and then and then he just threw a cherry and an orange in there. I was like, oh my god. It's like we both know some places around here that we might not go to and go back 44:00 Drink bourbon. No, no, no. Is it hard for you to go places when you see when you see other people like creating cocktails and you're kind of like, send it back like every day? do you do that? I mean, what's your there? I have I mean not not because I will spin people who don't who didn't understand the egg white thing that you have to actually shake it a lot. And he got outlawed in some areas. So there are some cities that have outlawed horrible things back. I mean, it was slimy still, it wasn't it didn't have the aeration of the A. And I've said back old fashions because they were just so sweet. Like it just was disgusting. So usually though, I don't do that. I just ordered a bourbon on the rock. 44:39 I don't drink cocktails, the whole I drink more cocktails and I'm out of town. Yeah, for some reason. When I'm out of town in a different city. It's kind of inspirational. It's kind of like getting a feel for where you're at to drink more cocktails. Or if I'm at a, you know, a new restaurant or bar in town that I haven't had cocktails at, but if I'm going to visit my friends at their bar, I'm not ordering cocktails from them hardly ever 45:00 They might make me something they want me to try, but I'm drinking a beer bourbon. Yeah. Yeah. I don't drink beer so I drink a lot. OJ go Martini. I drink Beefeater martinis or Plymouth martinis depending on my jam. Good. Yeah. Jim. 45:15 So let's go back to like the the entry level kind of cocktails. 45:22 Hey, it's Kenny here and I want to tell you about the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. It will be happening on August 24. In Frankfort, Kentucky. It's called bourbon on the banks. You get to enjoy bourbon beer and wine from regional and national distilleries while you stroll things along the scenic Kentucky River. There's also going to be food vendors from regional award winning chefs. Plus you get to meet the master distillers and brand ambassadors you've heard on the show, but the kicker is bourbon pursuit. We're going to be there in our very own booth as well. Your $65 ticket includes everything all food and beverage on Saturday. 46:00 Plus you can come on Friday for the free Bourbon Street on Broadway event. Don't wait, go and buy your tickets now at bourbon on the banks.org. 46:10 You've probably heard of finishing beer using whiskey barrels, but a Michigan distillery is doing the opposite. They're using beer barrels to finish their whiskey. New Holland spirits claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey. The folks at Rock house whiskey club heard that claim and had to visit the banks of Lake Michigan to check it out. That all began when New Holland brewing launched in 97. Their Dragon's milk beer is America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out in 2005. They apply their expertise from brewing and began distilling a beer barrel finished whiskey began production 2012 and rock house was the club is featuring it in their next box. The barrels come from Tennessee get filled with Dragon's milk beer twice, the mature bourbon is finished in those very same barrels. RackHouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories from craft distillers across the US along with two bottles. 47:00 hard to find whiskey rackhouse's boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in over 40 states. Go to rock house whiskey club com to check it out and try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel ride. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. The 2019 Kentucky's edge bourbon conference and festival pairs all things Kentucky with bourbon. It takes place October 4 and fifth at venues throughout Covington in Newport Kentucky, Kentucky's edge features of bourbon conference music tastings pairings tours and in artists and market Kentucky's edge 2019 is where bourbon begins. Tickets and information can be found online at Kentucky's edge.com. 47:45 So let's go back to like the the entry level kind of cocktails. One that I have found is almost a surefire winners not really a lot of people's radars. And that's bourbon slushies, huh? Oh, yeah, I mean, I have yet to find someone who didn't like bourbon. 48:00 But I introduced them to like a really nice bourbon slushy recipe and they were just wow, do you guys do anything with slushies? I have I have snow could thing. 48:10 It's not Snoopy either. 48:13 I have it's like it's harder for me. Um, it's kind of breaking the law to do those. And I'm pretty stickler for those things. A lot of the people that pre mold it's against the law to have a slushy machine as a as with drinks in it in Kentucky. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, 48:35 hi. Oh, that's completely legal. No, I'm not doing that in Ohio. But man, I was going to open a slushy liquor bar in Kentucky and now it's all 48:42 right now as it stands right now in Kentucky and I had to check this recently. Because we wanted to do so she's a 48:50 spirit has to be served from its original container last being consumed immediately. So by their iteration and Kentucky, if it sits and 49:00 mixture of less than 24 hours then you can serve it out of a machine or a pre mixer things like that. If it sits over 24 hours it's no longer legal. So interesting right so yeah so no barrel aged. I we when I was at my old Goodfellas we got rid of our house michelman show we got rid of our barrel aged cocktails all because there were some a couple people that got hit by the ABC on that Eric Gregory if you're listening to this with this on the Kentucky distillers associations I don't mean to throw it out there sorry. We saw 49:35 hillbilly Eric not who he was up nobility Yeah, but he got hit hard on that and it shut him down. Wow, I did not know that. Yeah, I watched a restaurant go down in flames because of something simple like that. And I don't I'm not gonna risk the entire business doing that we got a few emails will send after this one to some friends who 49:54 I had no idea but I mean, you say things like, okay, like more beverages wine that's not 100 50:00 Spirit you can do like local things like that. No saucy vermouth cocktails. Well you said you actually brought something up that that I always love going places and I've had good ones I've had bad ones that barrel aged cocktails kind of talk about your we got a yes and a no 50:17 go yeah it's very age who we send out in we did right across up I love that one. So I don't I love I love to use, you know, aged products to make a fresh cocktail. I don't think it doesn't taste fresh and it comes out of like, if you read if you make a cocktail, you may begin to granny or Manhattan and he put it into a barrel. 50:41 I hate that. I mean it kind of rounded out the rough edges you had to do it correctly like we would do two barrels. We took one barrel was our serving beer and we put paraffin wax on the inside so it's no longer reactive because people will keep it in a fresh barrel where it becomes over age and many tannic rough on your palate. If you get it to the right point and then change it over to an honorary 51:00 barrel that's where I think you you keep it is so you would age yours to a certain time age it to what we thought was right and every time you use the barrel it changes a little differently tasteful different so you're tasting and every couple days a week or so and then you bottle it yeah cabin and then you have you're serving in st you're you're serving barrel that we paraffin wax and you would fill that up and serve it from there. Yeah. Oh 51:28 I love Sam fights breakout 51:32 no I don't like oh, no, no, we've had differences opinion before so 51:38 I'm just not really drink is barely, you know, making them anytime soon. So I gotta tell you I kind of lean with Molly on my opinion of barrel aged cocktails. Like I have found them to be over tannic way battery the essence of the spirit is often lost. And if there is any kind of citrus in it, I 52:00 Swear to God I said wait hold on so I put sisters in a bed so you can put sisters in a very shocking that's just 52:06 I think that's the thing is like people think that they can just like make a cocktail and throw it into a barrel anything you know, and they don't realize there's some oxidation that goes on is very unsafe. I think it just you got to know what you're doing it's like Molly knows what she's doing what she's making tobacco bitters, but tobacco bitters are dangerous part to me. margins are playing around with activated charcoal they're out there playing around with things that they don't know fully about. And there it's not exactly Well, the the nitrogen one there's been a couple cases of customers are having burning their throat or having their stomach. Huge lawsuit with George Clooney, his old brand new they sold Castillo because of ego. They were having a party like even after he sold it or whatever. And somebody like Woody was out of work for eight months because they destroyed their esophagus on dry ice stupid. Well, yeah, don't use dry ice at home now. 53:00 There's so many things you show me that I'm dumb down. Well, let's keep the the disagreements going here because 53:09 so this is this is another one where I think our listeners would be interested to kind of see what is the right bourbon for the right type of cocktail, because you've got, you've got your weeded, you've got your high rise, you've got your low rise, you've got your craft that has sort of a more of a grainy flavor to it. So with these four, like where did they fit in inside and there's one other kind, the kind where they're paying you to put it in the cocktail? 53:37 competition competitions and things. I guess this will work. 53:42 I don't know if you agree, but I rarely and this is gonna be a kind of a blanket statement. I rarely find that we did Bourbons go into cocktails for me. Like a smash. Yeah. But not too often do I use a weighted bourbon and cocktails? Yeah, don't use a lot of we I mean unless I have to for like makers or something. 54:00 Right What do you mean less I have to well like you said like like if they're you know paying for it like 54:09 a lot of makers things and I you know I usually will like figure out the the cocktail for that you know it really well I mean 54:18 makers find to be a little sweeter so not 54:26 and not as complex as a lot of the other Bourbons I love makers don't don't think that I'm like putting it down no telling telling you like what I think I just gotta like you gotta figure out like what to put in it so that he doesn't like Lakers in a smash right it's about the only thing I put it I love smashes that was like one of my favorite like a Bramble even Rambo works I mean, I've made Maker's Mark brambles All right, y'all gotta remember 54:51 talking other languages fruit, smashed fruit and 54:57 and then your spirits and sometimes I put citrus in 55:00 Bramble and then top it off with spotlight club soda. Very simple, easy to make it home and bright cocktail. Yeah. 55:09 Like switching up the Bourbons there's lots of times where like a competition is happening and you make it with the bourbon gives you have to but you know it tastes better with a different burger. Yeah, that's how I've done that plenty of times. I'll just switch it up and put it on the menu with a different bourbon even though the competition required this and that. What's the ultimate bourbon mixing? cocktail? My what's the what's the cocktail mixing bourbon? I love old forester January. I mean, even my bar uses a lot. I will say there's bourbon. I'm gonna hate me for saying this. I'm not a big fan of Woodford straight. 55:45 Yeah, 55:47 straight out my favorite 55:50 other products but then like we said, we both love old forester. Yeah, if somebody buys me a word for it, I'm going to drink it, but you know, but I'd rather drink old Forester, the old forester signatures. 56:00 jam you know I say go for some signature all the time and it's not on the label anymore and 56:06 I go give me a bottle versus signature well 56:09 I noticed both of you all mentioned four roses yellow label to time to update. 56:15 Yeah 56:17 I love you been around the block you reference I brands I love using 56:23 in my well use I use Ancient Egypt 10 star for can get it if not benchmark. Ancient ages are well yeah. 56:34 And then sometimes sometimes Evan Williams if I can't find those other two that's how it goes in Ohio though. So there's a great for mixing if I make an old fashioned I use old granddad 100 or bonded if I making a Manhattan usually it's old forester. You know, or you know man, maker smart makes a great old fashioned 56:59 way 57:00 Deal force arrived 57:02 in Ohio know when I started using that all my Manhattans so 57:08 I like right in my man hands too but I think in this area there's something about a bourbon man and I don't know maybe it just goes back to that me working in high end retail and it was always with a bourbon. That's what I always did it with and I kind of gone back to using rye because we use it also in black Manhattan's which we serve a ton of and the rye helps cut through that tomorrow a bit. Have you ever made white Manhattan's Have you ever used a nice whiskey and made man? 57:34 I feel like I probably have at some point but I can't wait good. Yeah, yeah, shame on HH whiskey. I got white dog. Yeah, us especially that. What is it the OMG the 57:46 What is it? What is it out in Utah? What are they? 57:51 totally blank. And yeah, they're OMZ is this still called that? I can't get in Ohio. This what I used in Kentucky, but that with orange bitters, and then 58:00 dry vermouth instead. Holy moly you're a bigger fan of white dog and I know we discussed this before I I enjoy it but you like to sit around just sip on it I like the Buffalo Trace mash one. She's, she's old school. Love it. So when we look at you know bourbon cocktails we tend to look at it from like it's it's a price thing. It's usually the $30 and under. But there are some bartenders who will slap you know, slap a little Pappy in, in a cocktail shaker. Do you guys ever go crazy and put like an alley or super allocated? 58:36 bourbon or rye in a cocktail? Yes. 58:40 I got two ways of saying it. One is you're paying me the money. You're the one paying for the whiskey. I'll do it. Do you enjoy your way but anytime anyone's ever ordered a patented coke for me. My way of serving it has been I give him a glass of Pappy I give him a glass of coke and I give him ice and tell them with it being such a nice bourbon. I wanted to give you the component 59:00 You can mix it yourself to the appropriate mix. I've never mixed the coke not once so I try to not be offensive by Tom mirror. Wow fucking idiot 59:12 my bartenders always say I'm good at saying fuck you with a smile. 59:18 Like, my husband's always like you really good being like fuck you but your hair looks really nice. 59:28 Now I'll just say I, I feel like 59:32 I'm at my bar I'm there I'm I control the bar and I am there to educate people on what they're drinking, how they're drinking it. And so I will not serve them a copy of coke. I will educate them on why they shouldn't drink this with Coke. If it's really it's, I mean, they push it then I probably do the same thing but I have never had do that. It's happened me a few times that actually add a few bars. had to do that a couple times. But like I said, it's never gotten mixed. They've always thank 1:00:00 Me In the end I appreciate you not letting me ruin that that 1:00:05 you know the best thing out there and you know that's what obviously we go into it to our walk on this you probably don't need it I did you set up the next podcast. My sister took her to wild turkey though, you know Lawrenceburg and we did the high end tasting and right in the middle of it she cracks open a diet coke was died like my sister of all people. You can't do that. Like you cannot mix that with the diamond. 1:00:31 Yeah. 1:00:33 So sorry. 1:00:35 It's apologize to our family wild turkey too for that. 1:00:40 So another question I kind of had for you. You know, we've all at least in the bourbon world, we see stuff on the shelf, we buy it, we all make mistakes. It's it might be like I said it could be craft and a little bit too green forward. We're just not a big fan of drinking it neat. Is there a cocktail that you can use to make these a little bit more palatable? 1:01:00 Absolutely yes so kind of kind of talk about where ginger ale and 1:01:09 fancy it up a little bit rather than just adding ginger ale but you can always play around on something and doing something that is really going to cover flavors Manhattan's and no passions more enhance and you can do some stuff and a heavy smash or do a bird a sour even that I help cover it. Still I've had some I had to come through bed but yeah, let me let me I'm sure you guys get stuff sent to you sometimes from yesterday. Just show up. Yeah, yeah, twice, not mad about it. But sometimes it's usually from a newer distillery or a craft distiller and it's not that their products. It's not bad. It's just different than what you're used to, you know, no. 1:01:54 Bad. I've had some stuff where I'm like, Oh, this isn't bad. It's just it's just different. Yeah. 1:02:00 dozy Tyler yet have you all for God's sake. 1:02:04 Shit. Bad. So 1:02:07 one of the few that I've it spit out I've had, you know, he's like drywall. Yeah, got 1:02:14 some I poured me one recently to that I had to spit out it was out of a tin can. I can still 1:02:21 Yeah. 1:02:24 So there there's a 1:02:27 you know, I write reviews I score whiskeys and people started pointing out you know if you really don't like something you say would make a great cocktail bourbon and I didn't I really did not realize I was doing that. I'll be honest, I did not realize I was doing that. But I was passing it on to like, yeah, you know what it's drinking need. It's cocktail bourbon, but I have found that there is one note and some of these, these Bourbons that you cannot get out if it's a bad one. And it's that over charcoal Lee woody know, it's like there 1:03:00 Nothing that I've been able to find that can cut that Do you have any recommendations for like how to cut cut that charcoal that over woody note that you find a lot of two year old craft bourbon because like what I call it is that new bourbon tastes like this the big green exactly No. I mean, I just did I just had a bourbon and I it wasn't that was bad. It was really good. It was different. And by a very really respected new distiller new distiller who I have a lot of respect for. 1:03:34 And I couldn't figure out what to do with it but final

In the span of a few months, Katie Huey’s father died, her husband lost his job, and she also found herself in a work transition. Katie’s story begs the question: when it seems like everything is crashing down, what can you do? Can you learn to cultivate gratitude, even in the midst of disruption? What is the difference between self-care and self-nurture? And what should you expect from a work environment when things fall apart?   Katie Huey – How do you support your employees? Asking that question, like, what is your policy on supporting people who are going through tough stuff? Those answers can be really eye opening and tell you how people what the culture is where you're at.   INTRO   In the span of a few months, Katie Huey’s father died, her husband lost his job, and she also found herself in a work transition.  Katie’s story begs the question:  when it seems like everything is crashing down, what can you do?  Can you learn to cultivate gratitude, even in the midst of disruption?  What is the difference between self-care and self-nurture?  And what should you expect from a work environment when things fall apart?    Katie lives in Colorado.  She is married and has a little puppy, Olive.  She loves coffee shops and breweries and getting outside.  Katie is also a blogger, maintaining the blog 52 Beautiful Things, which aims to find beauty in the world.  This blogtook on a particular significance after her father died.    - Katie Huey I love to write and read. Kind of got that introvert full package but I also have taken up paddle boarding which has been really fun so working on getting back in the water.   - Liesel Mertes I love paddle boarding; that is a point of true connection. I picked it up a couple of years ago and even though I don't live like actively on a body of water although one day I would love to yeah.   - Katie Huey I just love being out there   - Liesel Mertes Yes it's a lovely way to spend a morning.   Katie works as the Director of Operations for the Trebuchet Group, an organizational improvement firm that does strategy consulting with both leaders and teams   - Katie Huey We work with a lot of purpose based business people who believe that your work and how you treat people and how you treat the planet have big positive impacts. So it's been a step away from the nonprofits where I started out but really learning a lot about leadership and how can we treat people as a whole people in the workplace.   As I mentioned at the start of the episode, Katie’s cascade of disruption began in March of 2016 with the unexpected death of her father; he was only 58 years old.      - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about your dad. What was his name? What were some of your favorite things about him?   [- Katie Huey I love that question. I feel like you can know when people have experienced loss because they say what were their names. My dad's name is Roy he was a gentle soul. He loved connecting with people and we kind of joked that he was sort of the Old Man Whisperer at his agency but he just was really good at being present with you.   - Katie Huey I think my dad was really simple to a lot of his favorite things where a greasy spoon diners and vanilla ice cream and he would eat his pizza with a knife and fork because he didn't like his hands getting dirty his those those little things that are so particular and that really helped make up the landscape of memory after some of what happened in March of 2016.   It was a normal Friday at 3 PM, and Katie was folding laundry when she got the call from her Mom.  Her father had died at home, perhaps from a heart attack.  It was unexpected and so very hard.    - Katie Huey  No one knows how to tell you that kind of information. And shortly after I got that news, I knew I had to tell my employer. And I just remember no one was answering the phone and I didn't know what to do because it was like, Do I leave a voicemail? Like this is not something you leave on a voicemail. And we kind of had a challenging relationship and we're trying to negotiate new working relationships. So yeah, I mean, it was later in the afternoon as the day unfolded. My husband was there with me and I remember we just went up to my mom's house and then family started showing up and you start trying to cope with the details.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah I as you think of emotion words that go with suddenly grappling from shorting stocks to your father being gone. What were some of that the dominant emotions that you had?   - Katie Huey in that I think with shock. There is an element of defensiveness and it feels surreal and you can't quite grasp what that means or the magnitude of how your life is changing in so time really slows down and you're really moving minute by minute.   - Katie Huey It's it's funny when I recollect the memories too, it's like it feels slow motion I think stunned is a great word. And then you start to kind of put up defensive of how do you begin to protect yourself as you move into this new stage of life.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about that feeling of the need for protection moving forward.   - Katie Huey Grief is just incredibly vulnerable. I think there's so many things in life that you feel you have some control over. And I know it's all an illusion but an illusion of control. But when someone unexpectedly dies in your whole life changes it was a significant shift in, how can I choose to take care of myself because the world feels really unsafe and I don't trust the universe right now. But you know, that's a gradual undoing of those mechanisms.   - Katie Huey Eventually, after my multitude of phone calls I did get calls back from both of my supervisors and they were very understanding and said, you know, do what you need to do we'll talk to you next week. I got cards from people and it was interesting because I was working remotely. So, even though I was in Colorado we had a couple different remote locations. Some people offered to come to the funeral. There was actually a freak blizzard the day of my dad's funeral so that another random thing.   - Katie Huey But I had a lot of questions as a new employee of what am I able to access in terms of support. What are the norms around bereavement policies and what's appropriate for me to ask for time off? So, I remember being confused and asking over a text message and that didn't feel awesome. And I think when I did come back to work several people would call me on a regular basis and you know, you would get a lot of questions of how you're doing but working remotely was also really challenging. And I just didn't feel like I knew where I fit in that company. And then, of course, you have grief brain and that complicates things where you can't think. So it just quickly became pretty apparent that this wasn't going to be a long term fit. And it probably wouldn't have been even if my dad hadn't died but I just wasn't what they needed in that role and then became less and less what they had.   - Liesel Mertes You, you talk about being less and less what they needed. We're using that term grief brain. That's an evocative sort of an image. Tell me a little bit more about what you recall and how that felt.   - Katie Huey It's waking up in a fog and not knowing where to start the day. I think things like what do you eat for breakfast and how do I get dressed. Like very basic things feel challenging and tuning into your own emotions while also caring for extended family. Just was really emotionally taxing, so I didn't have a lot of extra focus or energy to give. And I think your priorities change. And I think I would just say to other people in this immediate lost face like it's totally OK. And if you're I guess I'm passionate. Now if your players aren't working with you to help you take things off your plate or rearrange or work with you to address where you're at. That's a big red flag as you think about that that time and just the haze that's there.   - Liesel Mertes What do you wish that someone had done for you in that season or had been able to tell you about moving forward?   - Katie Huey I think in the workplace, especially for people working remotely, having a daily like touch base is really helpful. I often felt like I was unsure about if I was you know what I should be doing or I knew I wasn't hitting the mark. And so it's interesting now to think about what you move forward and you think what could I have done differently. So, asking people to check in with me I think is something that I've learned that I need.   - Katie Huey  But I will always remember in terms of personal friends and family who showed up. I had a friend bring us an Easter ham. My dad died the week before Easter. And like we were not even thinking about doing an Easter celebration or anything but she just showed up at the door and she's like, I didn't know what to bring it so I brought you a ham and like it's humorous and kind of funny and really sweet and bizarre. But I will never forget that. It just was a perfect example. Like she didn't know what to do. But she showed up anyway and it left a huge impact on me.   - Katie Huey And then people were really practical to, you know, I tell people now like show up with boxes of Kleenex and baby wipes and Clorox wipes like people show up and they're crying and it's messy so give them the supplies where they're not. You know I thought that was really helpful.   - Liesel Mertes I like that image of your friend at Easter. That's, that's almost like a like a commercial for Hormel ham or something. It's it's tragic and heartwarming and the ham was signified something important.   - Katie Huey Yeah. So I'll never forget that.   - Liesel Mertes As you think about do you think so, you've, you've done a lot of thinking and also purposeful writing about this journey with grief centering on well not centering but taking into account the importance of self care and what it looks like to know your emotional needs and cultivate gratitude. Tell me a little bit about how your experiences with the loss of your father and with job loss helped segue into a work that is close to your heart.   - Katie Huey Well, I have a blog it's called 52 beautiful things. And the tagline is an imperfect attempt to find some beauty the world has to offer. I actually started the journey before my dad died and I think and after losing him my experience was searching for good things in the world has gotten much deeper.   - Katie Huey And in the immediate loss I think I was almost making these gratitude lists or writing these narratives out of desperation that even though you're sitting and hurting and unsure and things feel unfair, there's still good things and good people out there.   - Katie Huey And so you know throughout, while that wasn't the purpose of my blog when I started it it's really become this opportunity for me to tune in and say what is the universe gifting me this week. And sometimes that's friends who show up to take you grocery shopping. Sometimes it's ice melting in a big cup like just these really pure ordinary things that I tend to take for granted. And so I find the exercise really grounding for me. There's also a strong theme of gratitude but it's a little bit deeper than just a gratitude list.   - Katie Huey  And to as we live in this American political climate I think there's lots of shocking things that are happening regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum. And I really want to help people realize that we have power in shaping our thoughts and recognizing that gifts that we're given.   - Liesel Mertes A  couple of years later now:  what does continuing grief look like for you?   - Katie Huey I think you know it more often changes and I choose to honor in different ways. And I've learned in different environments that I tend to overshare. And so I think I've had this opportunity to really stop and ask myself a question or a series of questions of, is sharing this information about my grief going to help what we're working on at work? Is it going to make someone uncomfortable and is it going to make me uncomfortable and am I okay with that. You know, simple questions we often start our staff meetings with like a team question and on Father's Day people ask you know what's your favorite thing about your father and you have this visceral gut reaction and to the other people sitting around the table it's a perfectly normal question. And so things like choosing to, a, How do I want to contribute to conversations like that?   - Katie Huey  Anniversaries are hard. The start of football season can be challenging. And I think I've chosen to come to a place of saying you know I'm just having a hard grief day and I kind of leave it at that with other people who maybe I know a little bit better, I can divulge a little bit more but I've really learned that protecting my heart in the professional workspace is important. That doesn't mean I can't show up fully at work.   - Liesel Mertes You described the moment perhaps in a team building meeting where someone asked about Father's Day. How do you in real time check in with yourself and make the decision about how you want to share in a moment like that?   - Katie Huey I think the real time thing. It's it's kind of a gut check and it depends on who's in the room. I guess my natural inclination now is less is more and that really people caring, caring people don't know what to say. And so I've learned. And I think this is the burden of grief, grieving people, is that by sharing your story you can often make people uncomfortable and like what's the risk of making people uncomfortable.   - Katie Huey So, but I also think I don't have to not participate. There are plenty of easy things that I love about my dad that I can share without getting emotional. So and that's three years out. You know, if someone had asked me that six weeks later I think that's a pretty insensitive question. But the other bummer thing about grief is people are so not grief literate that they often don't realize. So when I'm feeling really strong, I can kind of say, you know that's a tough question for me to answer with my situation and just leave it at that.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, yeah, I am, I resonate with that sentiment of lack of grief literacy or even, even practices and specifically like our particular 21st century American context. You know, we don't have, we don't have the same sort of grouping of rituals or recognized ways of community support or talking about grief...and that's not to say that like in the past that was done perfectly. But yeah, we lack, you know, we want to make people happy. We want to make them feel better. We want to know people to get back to producing in grief threatens that proposition and makes us uncomfortable in a very particular way. And that comes in human interactions   - Liesel Mertes  You talked about this awareness of like. I need to practice some self-protection here in the workplace. What led you to that feel, that present feeling? Were there specific like encounters or things that happened that you go, like oh I don't think I'm going to do that again in that?   - Katie Huey  Yeah. I mean I don't have one specific example, but I think when you, when I would start sharing my story and you're met with a lot of blank stares rather than nods or empathetic words, I know I've I've gone too far I know I've shared too much and I think to maybe it's just some maturity in the process. I'm really asking myself the question of like, if if this co-worker was going to quit tomorrow would I be OK with them knowing this information about me on the world? And kind of using that as a guidepost for myself has been helpful.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah I hear that I hear, you know, it's interesting when you say maybe it wasn't a specific encounter but it was this cumulative weight of observation because I think sometimes people can think, OK well, I don't want to, I don't want to say something wrong. So I'm just not going to say anything or I'm going to kind of change the subject. But that, even in doing that, that's not a value neutral response. It's not a non-response; it's still actively communicated something to you and that something was:  oh no I've made them uncomfortable; maybe I shouldn't do this anymore. Which is it's own communication.   - Katie Huey You pick up on those long variables and I've got this new soapbox. I really hate when people say to me like there are no words. I think maybe you, maybe you don't know words but I have like a ton of words. And and so I really encourage people who are working with those who are grieving you know to say like, I'm really not sure what to say and I want to be with you in this. Like there's 15 words that are so different you know and they have the same feeling. Because even when I encounter new people who have come across death or grief or tough stuff, I get tongue tied too, but I guess maybe it's the writer in me. I just feel like there are always some words you can find.   - Liesel Mertes There are always words out there piecing them together might be difficult but the words. Honest. Yes. And thinking about that. Can you remember any other phrases or things that were communicated to you where you just, go Oh man, like that was that was bad? Those people shouldn't do that.   - Katie Huey Oh gosh.   - Liesel Mertes Or maybe you can imagine a time, some of your some of your top handful.   - Katie Huey  Yeah. I had people send me cards that said like, at least you won't have to care for your dad when he's old. You know, you try to forget the things that people say that are out. I don't like the he's in a better place one night. My first response is like OK what place would that be, even if I do consider religion? I actually wrote a medium piece about this if like five things not to say. One thing that I also found was really hard is when people would say like, how is your mom? And they were coming from a place of curiosity and kind of, well, while they care for her, like my first response is like, she's bad she's sad. So kind of bringing up this, like, how are your other family members doing makes you feel like you, made me feel like I should have been doing more to care for other people.   - Katie Huey And I think the other thing is that's really not great it's like just let me know what you need. And that's really not helpful because I didn't know what I needed or I was afraid to ask. And so I encourage people, rather than that question, it's like, give concrete opportunities for how you want to help and let them say yes or no. I'd like to bring dinner over on Thursday, would that be OK? Like, even at work, like I'm going to take this blog post from you, is that alright? You know, take the thinking out of it because we're you know operating in that foggy space and it's just really nice when you can give us options.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah I think that's great. Great words of insight and advice for people considering how to support those who are going through something similar. Yeah as you think about yeah I mean you touched on it but is there anything else that you would add as words of insight or guidance?   - Katie Huey First, as someone who is going through there like in the thick of grief right now, I think recognize the little victories. I read in Joe Biden's autobiography that he used to chart his grief and I thought that was a genius idea, so he would read it you know day to day, on a 10 point scale and over time he started realizing, you know, what once used to be a string of tens became a string of any eights and then a four popped in and he had a really good day. Or it wasn't as painful and that was really helpful for me to realize, while there are elements of this that I will carry forward forever, it's not always going to be this intensely painful. And you know if you're not a list person just really turn into ways where you can have radical self care. I think our culture uses that phrase. It's not about just getting a manicure but it's like hearing you washed your hair today. Little things like that feel really hard to do and at least it did for me so and I think find comfort. I had a lot of people ask the question What are you doing to comfort yourself today, and that felt really manageable. Whether it was like bringing a soft blanket to work or setting an alarm so I would remember to drink some water at 3:00 p.m, like put, putting systems in place that bring you comfort.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah here that I was talking with a friend just just yesterday who is going through some disappointment, and yeah just news that she's finding hard to reckon with. And as I was talking with her, we brought up that language of self care which oftentimes the direct connotation is chocolate or wine or a bubble bath which can be good things; they can be really important in the journey. But I feel like in my, in my own story, there was maybe something that sounds a little bit different of talking about nurturing yourself as opposed to just practicing self care because you have self care perhaps for a season. It's wine at night and a lot of chocolate and that can be important to get you through that immediate season. But to take stock, at a certain point, and say what is, what is nurturing in the long term? Like, if I am worthy of self and nurture that looks like you know choosing to go to bed at 8:00 p.m., because I really need sleep; it's super important for my restoration, my psychological well-being. I'm going to sleep really early tonight or I'm going to take the time to make like a really healthy nourishing meal for myself and not just pick up something that other fast and easy can be important. But to begin making that calculus of, what does long term nurture looks like is part of perhaps a trajectory that people can consider.   - Katie Huey I think one thing that I learned through my story, and it's kind of connected to that self nurturing idea, is if you're in a workplace where people are not showing up for you in ways that you feel are helpful or if you've asked for what you need and you know you're not gonna get it, don't be afraid to seek other employment. I've just been really, really happy and lucky to landed a place where they weren't afraid of where I was at and when I was interviewing, I made the conscious choice of saying you know I lost my dad two years ago. I'm still recovering and I'm in a better place where I can contribute to a different workspace and they were super receptive to that. I think I was really, really afraid to be honest about bringing my whole self and my grief experience to a new employer, but I also knew that I couldn't work for someone who didn't know what was happening to me or what I was working through. So it's just an encouragement that like, if work is causing you more harm, seek other caring people to be employed with.   - Liesel Mertes And what did their receptivity and support, how was that expressed to you that when you started at the Trebuchet Group...you thought, Oh yeah, this is this is a place that will get me in this or how has it continued to look?   - Katie Huey  I, I don't think there is a lot of maybe public acknowledgement about the grief process but rather, they've given me opportunities to grow my confidence and grow my responsibilities. And you know I came in maybe a little bit of a lower level position but just through conversation an open door policies and accessing support in a safe place to ask questions like my confidence in myself has really grown. So I think, you know, when you're interviewing, asking questions about how do you approach team conflict? How do you support your employees? Asking that question, like, what is your policy on supporting people who are going through tough stuff? Those answers can be really eye opening and tell you how people what the culture is where you're at.   - Liesel Mertes That's a great question for people who are interviewing but also companies to even just sit with and ponder:  oh yeah, what what are we doing? Are we doing anything or is the expectation just you leave that at the door?   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Katie had a range of important insights to offer, but I want to pull out three reflections in particular from this conversation. If you are going through a hard season, Katie had some helpful suggestions. You could try cultivating gratitude by noticing something, each day, to be grateful for.  Perhaps try charting the intensity of your grief daily so you can notice a trajectory over time. You could also ask the question, how am I practicing self-nurture today? Katie realized that she didn’t have to share the fullness of her grief journey with everyone. When confronted with unsympathetic people or overwhelming situations at work, Katie chose to opt out of activities or let people know she wasn’t comfortable sharing.  Perhaps this could be helpful for you if you find yourself in situations that don’t feel safe at work.  And, perhaps a point 2b, if you are a co-worker, your responses and your non-responses powerfully affect whether people feel safe.  A blank stare is not a neutral response; it can make people feel unseen and unwilling to share. As you are interviewing for jobs, ask the interviewer, what do you do to support employees that are going through hard times?If you are an employer, you should ask this question as well.  For Katie, a lack of support was a big part of why she left her job.  What are you doing to support your people during disruption? If you don’t know or if you want to get better, contact me at Handle with Care, HR Solutions.  Information about our offerings can be found at lieselmertes.com.  As a workplace empathy consultant, my goal is to empower workplaces to give meaningful support during these times of disruption.   OUTRO   If you want to read more about Katie and her work on gratitude, here are some links to her work. 1)  This is the Medium article she referenced in the podcast:  Medium Article 2)  For those navigating tough stuff:  Here's to the Ones 3)  Things we try to cover 4)  Isn't life grand

Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty interview Helen Matthews who  left corporate life to live her dream of becoming a successful novelist.In this podcast Helen talks about how she transitioned from full time employment to writing for a living and the issues she had to addressHow she came up with the idea for her first book which involved intensive research into the topic of human trafficking .Having the confidence to base her second novel, Lies Behind the Ruin on elements of her own experienceHow characters develop and ‘speak’ to the writerTopics brought to life in her novel  – various types of deceit in relationships – including financial deceit and the impact that can have on a relationship3 tips for transitioning from corporate life to writing – and still being able to pay the bills!----more----Full transcript of episode[00:00:04] I'm Ceri Wheeldon and welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro age conversation, talking about all things life after 50. [00:00:18] Hello and welcome to this week's Fab after Fifty podcast. And I'm very pleased to have with me today Helen Matthews. [00:00:25] Now, Helen is a published author and she has just published her second book, Life Behind the Ruin. Hello, Helen. Thank you for joining us on Fab After Fifty. Hello, Ceri. Thanks for inviting me. Now, you're a relatively recent published author, aren't you? This is this isn't your first career, is it? [00:00:45] No. I had to battle my way through a first career and growing children and all those kinds of things until I was able to take a bit more time and focus on what I wanted to do myself. [00:00:58] Have you always had a love of writing, though? [00:01:02] Yes. I'm one of those people that's been writing ever since I could hold a pen while I wrote all through my childhood and sometimes I entered competitions or had a few things published in magazines for younger women. And then I carried on through my early part of my working life, writing short stories with moderate success, not very much. And then as I got more embroiled in my corporate career, I found it more difficult to write fiction. So I switched from my leisure interests to writing articles, and I had some published in mother and baby family and lifestyle magazines. And then on the BBC, I did a couple of columns for something  John Peel used to run called Home Soon. [00:01:49] And what in terms of your corporate career, what were you doing there? What what was your main role? [00:01:56] Well, I sort of transitioned through a few different things. So I started off working for the British Council thinking I have a glamorous, sort of quaint diplomatic career. But I soon realised that I needed to do something that was a little bit more financially stable. So I went into the energy industry and I worked in internal consultancy. Then I worked for a bit in oil and gas. I did alright in corporate management. And then I went into HR employee benefits.  But very, very different then to sitting writing. Yes.  And of course, the trouble with that is that it demands a certain kind of writing for your writing and your career, but you're writing reports and analysis and financial papers for the board and that does take you away from writing in a creative fiction way. [00:02:51] It is different, isn't it? I mean, I found that when I started Fab after Fifty, I had to write for people to read and hopefully enjoy. Whereas in my career, I was a head hunter. I'd be writing reports on candidates that I'd interviewed and summaries of. No. In terms of how they wold fit into teams and things. But then you approach it in a very different way. Are you would use different language. It's more formal. [00:03:15] Exactly. And there are certain boxes that you've got to tick, you know, and if you're writing something that needs to be very precise, you can't introduce any colour into the language. You know you find your writing stocks go a little bit dead and words dont dance  from the page. No that's what I found that would have transferred over into my attempts at writing, which I would do in the evenings and weekends. [00:03:40] People used to say to me, I don't know probably that what you're used to writing. I was but not used to writing in that way. [00:03:48] Yes. I'm glad. I'm glad you said that. Actually, because I don't know whether people really realise because, you know, as I changed my career, as I came out of the corporate world, it took me a few passes to get to the point where I could really let it flow and write fiction again. And along the way, I could have done things like copywriting, though I did some copywriting where I would write about the things I knew from my corporate life, like employee benefits and pensions, for example, happened. [00:04:15] Not something we want to take to take to bed and read is it. It might send you to sleep, which could be a good thing. [00:04:22] But if you can write something that's interesting for people about a pension for example, then there's a good chance you might be able to write something interesting when you turn to fiction. Well, that's what I hope. [00:04:33] And I have to say, I've read your second book. I haven't read your first book, but I've barely read the second book, which I have really enjoyed and I related to it a lot of, it's based  in France, isn't it? So I can certainly relate to that, having spent quite a lot of time than myself. [00:04:48] Yes, that's right. Yes. It sounds like you might have had some kind of similar experience to me. Falling in love with a,  In our case, dilapidated, tumbled down property and then deciding, you know, it would be easy to do it up. [00:05:01] And of course, it isn't as easy as it seems. Is it really? But what was the inspiration behind the book? [00:05:09] Well, in my first book, which I think we have, we mentioned maybe later I'd written about something that was way outside my own experience that I had to research very thoroughly. And then with this new book, when I came to write it, I thought, I feel confident enough now to start drawing, drawing on some of what I know. You know, just write what you know that writers are often told to do. So I did have the starting premise or a starting location, the experience that we had in France where we impulse bought our property. It was very, very cheap at the time. And it was literally a case of us standing at the ATM cash machine drawing out enough money for the 10 per cent deposit because it was so small. It wasn't you know, I mean, if people ever want to imagine it, it wasn't like one of these lovely mansions that you see. It really was a tumbledown farm building. [00:06:02] Well, now all we've done the chateau then. No, no, no, no. [00:06:06] There was there in the village, but we certainly didn't live in it. [00:06:11] So. So you drew it, so that was that sort of really the premise that you wanted to write about bringing that life experience that into a novel. [00:06:18] And yes, the thing that's different. And then I mean, obviously, I drawn on my own experience that I I take the family in my novel in a very, very different direction because they without knowing it, they all have different motivations for what's happening. So one one party in the marriage thinks one thing is happening and the other party is making plans for something completely different, which, of course, you'll find out if you read the novel and we should mention the name of it. [00:06:50] It's called Lies Behind The Ruin, isn't it? So I guess lies as a clue. And in terms of what we can expect to uncover as we read it. [00:06:58] Yes. I mean, I'm hoping that title works on a few different levels. But certainly the main title that you would understand but is intended to be. Yes. [00:07:09] And from these I guess some of the issues in the book. I mean, one of the things that we touched on, having read it and we don't want to give too much away is obviously if we want people to be encouraged to read it, they put deceit on different levels, isn't there within the book. And I guess one of the areas that there's an element of deceit quite early on, which again in part creates the need for them or that the desire for them to go to France. [00:07:32] This part of is is financial deceit. Yes, that's right. So the husband in the book, whose name is Paul, he has been he probably got married a little bit later. And I've been you know, he was coming up to 40, whereas Emma, the wife, will be coming up to 30. So she's quite a bit younger than him. And they have quite a different  different experience in their past. So Paul has had quite a glamorous life, really good jobs, and he hasn't had to think about what he spends his money on. So if he wants flash holidays, flash cars, horse racing, all of those things have been available to him. Whereas Emma was a single mum shortly after she had a short marriage when she was at university, which didn't last very long. And she's been struggling to bring up her son from her first marriage on practically no money at all. So they've got very different values and principles towards money. Of course, Paul doesn't think he has to tell her everything that's really going on, and that comes as one of the first early surprises in the book. [00:08:42] So, I mean, how mean from your own experience, I mean, how common is it that husbands or even wives would hide their financial dealings or their financial situation, from their spouses? [00:08:56] Well, when I was doing a bit of research for some blogs that I wrote around the publication of the book, I did dig into some statistics which I can't remember about the causes getting divorced. And I did discover that finance and financial problems is probably the number one, which is surprising because people might think it's something else. [00:09:18] Many think it's adultery. Aren't they all playing a part? Yes, they do. But I suppose if people come to a marriage with such different principles towards money, then it's going to be very, very difficult to draw back from that. And I did have some experience about myself in an early marriage where my husband at the time, you know, he just could not contain his spending. And I don't know whether you know, I don't know whether that was something from his childhood. It probably was. But he was determined to hide it from me. So he sort of called me in the role of a kind of strict parental figure that was always telling him off and spoiling his fun while I was desperately trying to keep track of where the money was going. [00:10:01] And it was not very a very happy time. Even though I was aware of it. I was watching like a hawk. It doesn't make for a very happy marriage, but if somebody is determined to hide it, then it's surprising how long they can hide their financial mismanagement. [00:10:18] No, I actually I am aware of that. I won't go into too much personal detail, but it's something I've experienced in the past as well. [00:10:25] Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if if many people listening might, you know, it might strike a chord with them. What do you think? [00:10:33] I think it probably would do and I guess it makes you realise that you don't really know what somebody is doing or spending or on what you know. We don't know, do we? I don't know. Do you think there's an element of male pride there  that they perhaps I don't know this  is the case with your character on your book where they don't want to admit that they haven't got what you think they've got and they tried to cover it up there. It makes the situation worse. [00:11:01] I think you're absolutely spot on there, actually. Particularly if it's somebody who's liked,  used to being perhaps the center of attention or somebody who is very popular, you know, they might well be the first person to buy the round of drinks and keep on paying for others. That might be one of the thing. And I suppose it feeds back into some kind of insecurity that their mask might slip if people don't see them always  being at the centre of things and paying for everything. [00:11:30] And so from your perspective of people read the book. Are you hoping that they will gain some sympathy about it or do you really write it just for entertainment? [00:11:40] Well, I like to write things that are very, very contemporary because I'm interested in the world as it is now and all things that are going on around us. And I'm also very interested in people's individual experience and things like how a life can change in a moment. You know that the small things that happen. So in this particular book, obviously, I loved writing the French part because having had some of that experience myself, I'm very, very attached to it. And the characters that you meet in France and the different feel for the landscape, the villages and the town. And then another thing would be when I'd started writing the book and I started writing it before the referendum on the EU membership. And so when the referendum happened and Britain voted to leave the EU, I actually thought, oh, my goodness, do I have to abandon my book or is it suddenly going to become a historical novel or can I weave that into the plot? So there is a little bit about the challenges of the potential Brexit looming, even though the novel actually runs from 2015 to the beginning of 2017. In real time, though, nothing is resolved. But I've tried to sort of show that the and the issues around Brexit are definitely something that will affect people who are thinking about moving to France or to Europe, and they have to deal with that along with all the other challenges. [00:13:06] And of course, we don't know how long it's going to be challenge for at the moment. Exactly. [00:13:10] I was certain that, you know, we would know one way or the other when the book came out. And I was sort of stealing myself or having to ask Google the question from people who would say, well, you know what? They wouldn't be able to do that. You couldn't just up and off without massive amounts of money and land up in a French village and decide, oh, well, the business, because that's not necessarily going to be open to people in the future. [00:13:34] You might not know it's a very different landscape now, isn't it? . [00:13:39] But I don't think there's anything that any of us really considered at the start of it. Yes, totally. And over the years I've spent in France. But then, you know, in our holiday house in France, that is no longer ruins and looks like a modern bungalow, unfortunately. Rather than like a beautiful stone cottage. I've met many people who've come from the UK for all sorts of reasons, sometimes perhaps their children were in a school where they thought they might be in danger of getting involved in gangs. So they moved to the rural part of Franc where our house is and put their children in the French education system and started a new life. So, you know, there are so many reasons, not necessarily just older people that want to move. People of all different ages can start again. And perhaps if you're artistic and you want to, set up a pottery studio. I know people who've done that kind of thing as well. You just need a change in their life. And unfortunately, now that's not necessarily going to happen. Or maybe it will. We really don't know. [00:14:38] We don't know. No, not at all. So you mentioned also we would come back to your first book, which was very different to the first the second one, because that was based very much more research based rather than drawing on your own experience. What inspired you to write the first one? [00:14:56] Well, the first book is called After Leaving the Village, and it tells the story of an Albanian girl who is 17 years old when the book starts and living in a village and working in her father's shop. And she thinks her life is over in the sense that nothing interesting is ever going to happen to her again. And then one day, an enigmatic stranger from the capital, walks into the shop and tells her about the dazzling, exciting career she could have if she went with him to London. And then, of course, her life is about to change, but not in the way she expected. So that book actually is about human trafficking, modern slavery, but it's very much written at the human level. So it's not a novel about international criminal activity and gangs rampaging across borders. It's we follow very closely in the footsteps of one girl, but it's not. I also have a dual narrative with another woman who lives in London who came originally from a village in Wales and they end up on the same street and how their paths eventually cross and what then happens becomes an interesting part of the plot. So I got very, very interested in researching modern slavery and trafficking, and I was involved with a charity that's now appointed me as an ambassador for the charity. It's an anti slavery charity that works to support survivors and to raise awareness. So my ambassador role, I go around and I give talks and I alsobtell people about my book and then I give a donation from sales about book back to the charity. [00:16:36] Did yo know about the charity before the book. Did you write the book before the charity? [00:16:43] Well, I had all the ideas for the book, but then I started doing research and ofcourse I discovered, which might surprise some people because we'd be back in about 2013, 2014, but there wasn't as much material available as you would expect right now. Obviously, we hear a lot in the press about slavery because it's come into prominence in the last couple of years. But then the routes that I had to follow were taking me towards charities, the people they'd worked with and the case studies that they'd written up about people's life experience. So that was how they helped me with my research. The charity is called Unseen and they helped my research checked  my book and wrote an introduction for it and they was very helpful and wanted to help me in any way they could because they felt it was. Given that fiction really could have a role to play in bringing this to people's awareness. [00:17:42] But some yes, it's interesting, isn't it? You said it wasn't much out there then, but hopefully your book and the involvement with the charity has perhaps in some way helped to raise the profile of this problem. [00:17:53] It's yes, it's been fascinating going round and doing talks all for different groups from book groups to WI and all sorts of people asking me to come and talk. And they all like have a light bulb moment when I'm talking. So they have read things in the press, but they've never really discussed it or thought about it. So we talk about, you know, cases of forced labour type slavery, child slavery, all the horrors that happen when people are tricked into selling a kidney, for example. And they really do raise their awareness in the course of a short talk. And then hopefully they buy my book and they read it, you know, a bit more that helps them to relate to the people. And you won a prize for that one, didn't you? Yes, I won a prize at Winchester Writers Festival. It was a novel prize, but it was only, you know, what you submitted was just the first chapter. So it wasn't the whole of the novel, but I was still very, very pleased to win. [00:18:51] That must have been  been very rewarding, especially it was your first novel. [00:18:56] Yes, it was. Yeah. And it was really exciting. I was really I was I was really delighted because I think, you know, you're always uncertain of yourself as a writer, as an author. And you need a certain amount of feedback to understand that it is okay, really. [00:19:12] So they are  two very different books aren't they. So what's the third one going to be like. With one that's researched based and one based on your own experience, what's number three? [00:19:25] Well, I've I've had a small bit of a setback in the sense that I started writing a sequel to After Leaving the Village, which would have been sort of along the lines of Returned to the village. And the reason I started writing that was because so many people who reviewed after leaving the village that they really wanted to know what will happen next. I knew there was a lot more story to tell. And so I thought I would give it a go. And I again, I did loads more research. And then when I started writing it, I got quite a way on with it. And for some reason the characters weren't speaking to me anymore. It was like they were saying to me, we've already told you our story. We're not going to talk to you anymore, though. [00:20:08] Right. And I'd written almost half of the novel. [00:20:11] I'd written about 40,000 words, submitted my first draft, and this was about last November. And at that point, I thought, you know what? I just need to leave this. It may I may never be able to write it, because if the characters don't work, however good your plot is, you're not going to have a very good novel. [00:20:28] And you said there that the characters stopped speaking to you. Do you actually sort of have conversations with them as you write  to create the characters or for readers to get to know the characters and they weave into the storyline. [00:20:44] Well, it's a very strange thing. But although, you know, I'm moderately organised in the sense that I do like to plot out most of the novel before I start. And I like to know a bit about the characters. But once you start writing it, it can often go in a different direction. And some of that is because the characters form themselves into a version of real people. And so you find you can actually force them sometimes to go down a route that you are thinking of taking the plot. So what I do is I'm practically living in that world with my characters or I want to because I want the reader to have an experience of, you know, particularly with something like after leaving the village, which is so sensitive. I want people to think that my character with, you know, could be you or me or one of our daughters and people could then walk in her shoes and really understand what it was like to be somebody in that situation. So, yes, I did live it and some of it was a bit intense. [00:21:44] And interesting, I hadn't thought about writing the book in that way and sort of becoming the character, so to speak. So if that one doesn't go ahead, do you have plans for a different option beyond that one. [00:21:58] I do have another one. So when I left corporate life, what I did was I went to university again to do an MA in creative writing. And the reason that I did that was because I just wanted to make it a proper break between the corporate life and what I was hoping to do afterwards. Although I did sort of carry on doing, you know, writing related work to earn a bit of money. And I wrote a novel for my dissertation, which I kind of knew at the time wasn't really good enough. But nevertheless, I did get me my MA, so it can't be that bad. So what I think I'm going to do next is revisit that novel and see if I can. With everything that I now know from having two published novels, I'm going to see if I can work on that novel, which is complete, but really change it fundamentally to make it a much more acceptable proposition for being published. [00:23:00] One of the things that we were talking earlier before, before we started the actual podcast is the fact that you said you came from corporate life and it wasn't too late, but having decided it wasn't too late. You progressed in quite a considered way by taking that break then to go back to university first. [00:23:20] Yes. I mean, there were a couple of reasons for that. One of the reasons was I was on quite a long period of notice. I think it was and was maybe six months or something. So I had to give a lot of notice. And I was really worried that because I had a have a very good job and I did enjoy it. And so to give it up was putting my whole family at risk in some ways. But I thought if I've applied for the M.A. to start the following September and if I've got the place confirmed, then it wouldn't be so likely that I would change my mind or be persuaded to not leave after all. So that was one reason. And then the other reason was related to that business. The thing we were talking about earlier, which was that the more you write corporate work, the more you write reports and analysis, the more tied up your writing becomes. So I needed to sort of free it up again so that I would be able to write fiction in an acceptable way that really flowed rather than, well, all those kind of work anachronisms and things that you use when you're acronyms, rather you use when you're writing for a big company. [00:24:30] Now they are two very different worlds aren't so different. [00:24:35] And of course, you know, because you're doing it so intensely, it just gets under your skin. And before you know it, you become that person, you become that corporate person. You thought. I mean, after my first degree was in English and my first job, as I think I may be mentioned with the British Council, which was like, you know, the arts and international development side of the diplomatic service in those days. And so I thought of myself as like a creative person. And then I ended up going into areas of work that were anything but. I mean, they're perfectly fine. But the financial and legal aspects of what I have to do just meant you have to be very precise and not the same as writing, I think fiction at all. [00:25:21] So anybody listening today that's perhaps worked in the corporate world and wants to come out of it and take that step and write that first novel. What would you be able to get in three tips, how to get started? Wow. , I've put you on the spot there. [00:25:37] But it's it's a totally fair question. I was probably grappling with it myself for many years . I think I am a bit of a risk taker. I mean, obviously, impulse buying the house in France was an example. So once I've made up my mind, I'm going to do something. Then I will do it. And sometimes I'll perhaps do it a bit too quickly. Then maybe you should. So if you want to write, my first tip is then then write. So whatever situation you're in and if you've obviously got to keep on working because you've got to pay the mortgage and all these things, then find yourself some time to start writing and do it alongside everything else that you have to do with child care and elder care and job. And then soon after that, maybe join a group, perhaps a writers group where you can share your work with other people who will give you good advice and feedback. It's really a lonely thing where it can be a lonely thing to be a writer. So if you've got people who know, you know, who are at the same stage as you were, maybe a bit further on, you can really support one another. Which is it. But I think probably the third tip is you may need some kind of um, if you decide to stop a well-paid salaried job. You don't think that writing is going to pay your bills because almost certainly you're going to need to do loads of other things on the side. We all know the names of J.K. Rowling and the like bandied around a lot, but the majority of writers and full time writers really make very, very little money and probably have to do other things like editing other people's work, teaching or lecturing those kind of things. So you just do need to protect yourself financially if you still need to earn an income. [00:27:27] Well, that's not quite how it is because people think you write your first novel, have an  international bestseller, and you've sold the film rights and are now on an island in  Caribbean somewhere. Exactly. [00:27:38] And for some, you know, for some tiny, tiny percentage of people it is. But but for the vast majority, even like well respected name, they certainly make some money. But they probably would be a lot worse off financially than if they carried on, I don't know, being a teacher or something. I'm sure teachers would make a lot, lot more money than. Your average novelist? Sure. [00:28:00] Well, that's a really interesting take on that. So but haven't thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing those tips that you can people who think. Food for  thought there thinking about alternative channels to make money while writing that. Thank you so much for sharing that. We would just like to say people go out and read the book. I've read it. I really enjoyed it. I don't know if it's actually out or I had an advance copy. [00:28:23] Yes. It came out on the 25th of April.  And there's also an e-book on Amazon. It should be available in some leading bookshops or it may have to be ordered otherwise. Yes. From Amazon  or Smiths or Waterstones. [00:28:43] And again, it's the title of Lies  behind the Ruin and should be a great summer holiday. Read . Yes. [00:28:50] I mean, one way that I think I could describe it is it could be a beach read for somebody who likes their beach read on the darker side. If you don't want like light and fluffy, then you might find hopefully this will keep you turning the pages. [00:29:05] I belong to a book club. I think it would be a good book club read? Actually, when you go through it, it raises quite a different number of issues, doesn't it? Within relationships? Yes. [00:29:15] There's a lot to talk about. Certainly my last novel has done really well with book clubs and I sometimes get invited along to talk to them, you know, after they've read it. I very much hope that lies behind the ruin will be picked up by book clubs as well. So they can have a good debate about all the issues. [00:29:33] Thank you so much for joining us today. And this let us know when you've got book number three on the bookshelf. [00:29:39] Oh, thank you, Ceri. Yes, I'd love to. Thanks very much for talking to me about my book. I really enjoyed it. But again, thank you Helen Matthews, the author of Lies Behind the Ruins. Thank you. [00:29:55] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to friends and be part of the pro age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age, but especially after 50. ----more----

Drew, Luis and Pablo Meet up in Glassell Park. After a long week the guys come together and are happy to record because it feels like therapy.Social Media LinksToday Well Lived PodcastInstagram @twlpodcastTwiter@twlivedpodcastWes MartinezWebsite: thewesmartinez.comInstagram: thewesmartinezDrew GarciaInstagram: @mrdrewgarciaTwitter: @mrdrewgarciaPablo BarronInstagram: @pblitoo @thetiregarageYouTube: youtu.be/a0BvbNDC9_kMusic“Topher Mohr Alex Elena – Hot Heat”https://instrumentalfx.co/topher-mohr-alex-elena-hot-heat-no-copyright-music/Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0"Topher Mohr & Alex Elena – Mr. Pink"https://instrumentalfx.co/topher-mohr-alex-elena-mr-pink-no-copyright-music/Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0Key WordsIntermittent fasting, Keto, Paleo, Juicing, Fitness 19, 24 Hour Fitness, gym, swimming, jump rope, heavy, fat, fat shame, Boston, Los Angeles, Santa Ana, Postmates Salad, beer, podcasts, podcasting, Joe Rogan, The Church of What's Happening now, 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California Donuts, The Donut Man, La Verne, Glendora, San Dimas, Claremont, Rancho Cucamonga, Alta Loma, Fontana, Ontario, Montclair, Pomona, Chino, Chino Hills, Eastvale, Riverside, Corona, Laker Elsinore, Corona, Redlands, San Bernardino, Mira Loma, Norco, Anaheim, Santa Ana, Irvine, Stanton, Disney Land, Long Beach, Carson, San Pedro, Torrance, La Habra, Brea, Fullerton, Improv, ComedyTranscriptwow clear it out Hey everybody this is it today well live podcasts coming to you today from glass cell park California not far from our regular recording studio slash apartment %HESITATION Mister Martinez %HESITATION yeah this is gross apart we're on it eagle rock Boulevard here video rockets technically over there in Colorado which doesn't make any sense right okay is almost but anyhow welcome to the show %HESITATION you might not be used to myself Dru Garcia starting the podcast usually Wes is their front man but what can you make it to the he's off doing the acting gig ignoring us and %HESITATION neglecting his fellow fat asses and %HESITATION that's okay we'll get him next time and so I've got my good friend here to my left %HESITATION a let him introduce himself hi everybody this is Liz moralis %HESITATION very happy to be here %HESITATION this is our second %HESITATION recording I actually don't like our first recording does a person was elected teaser just introducing herself and so happy to be here hopefully you guys are enjoying our talking as well and of course not we got one more voice today and that's our good friend Mr problem here what's up big boys you guys with me and I really I know you did I guess you're looking for and I was missing that's what I wanted here so welcome to today all apart cast a podcast about a bunch of friends now used to be just two guys now now that that you guys were my friends before but now you have to be my friend yeah right %HESITATION but %HESITATION but about two guys who are really just in the hunt trying to make better versions of ourselves so that we can enjoy this life right life is fleeting and you have to enjoy every day of it and so we've put together this program this show this podcast because number one we want to be accountable to each other but the number two we wanted we we know that everything is easier when when you have help right absolutely that's one thing the struggle in silence but it's when you have help when you're surrounded with people %HESITATION that are trying to do to get to the same place it's easier to get there and especially because weight loss and this is primarily our goal is to lose weight %HESITATION over the next year or so or for a lifetime yeah %HESITATION but when you're losing weight it's it's easy to get off track it's easy to be like wow man I I didn't I don't feel good today and %HESITATION you know maybe I don't know right I do that today yeah and so it's not about being perfect it's about being as good as you can for as long as you can and you know going back to the theme of today will live %HESITATION what are you working for right what what why are we having the struggle to eat really clean is it just to be clean is it just is it is it or is it because Hey I want to be able every once in awhile to have a beer with my buddies how are you Donna or go to a wedding and not have to worry about what they're serving right is an asking like Hey is there %HESITATION any starts in that %HESITATION for her I don't I don't really worry about yeah well you know what I was gonna say person in a waiting room just look you think we worry about that my first question is is buffet or what how much of the drinks yeah so years ago my family one of my family members had at a wedding and %HESITATION my family is my family but when I see my family like me and my siblings were notorious we have fama for sneaking bottles into weddings that's what you do and but so will we we do it is we buy those little gift bags and we bring it as it is a gift of hope he had a we put it on the table problem is if the lying to your table is longer than the line at the bar they're going to figure it out yeah right so sneaky and have like control and is a thing of people like I'm getting through a link at one time where they threaten the likes at the party then okay and my poor cousins you know they're like what the hell's going on they they have no control over this it's family do this everybody at the table who is doing this activity more than a for their own drinks it's not that's not what it's about since beating it's been in the place with yeah so anyways %HESITATION so let's introduce ourselves %HESITATION let's go Sir going over that trick I learned that trick from my dad if you're going to be sending the dozens integration in general you had it always under the table you know what when he was younger used to drink a lot he doesn't that much anymore FAQ doesn't at all anymore %HESITATION but yeah the trick was taught to me by my father nice I took my two liter sodas out make some already might specially square with the killer and bring along with it and say this is a special special soda the special drink specials the %HESITATION so %HESITATION my name is drew Garcia and for my two friends here they laughed because they know me is on the S. main real name is on this made my legal name but as I've said on the part can really more I don't know the answer yes %HESITATION somebody else to me there's two actors name well there's an actor name on that is going to see in Spanish so yeah and then there and then there's a bigger CO it's because I you know I home I go by Andy right yeah you know my name was it actually and I I'm dressing tolls like eight and %HESITATION and so drew when I drove there I went on so these guys %HESITATION for every me a hard time about it but I'm okay the %HESITATION that's what we do to each other yeah so %HESITATION bubble a total about yourself man Miley properly though well I was born I was actually born in Mexico brought to this country beautiful country in the age of two souls boarding see the log with it on to the law and %HESITATION but at the over to the US at the age of two and been here's the ever since Orange County so %HESITATION lived in garden Grove Santana back to CNN %HESITATION back to an arm for a little while but does it India grown up with the school year would go back to Mexico though every year I love it over there so banks was like my home away from home I guess so I'm is Mexican and Canadian but American is can be as well so got a little mix of both six threes on big guy and %HESITATION yeah they're lovable removable I agree to that level good good good but you loose you for Jeez well my name is Jose Luis moralis I go by Louise all my friends call me please %HESITATION receipt the receipt the receipt of what can you %HESITATION I was born in may he Kylie %HESITATION all my family back on the scene a law %HESITATION click on cassette me to show you know you know that yep you know those places well %HESITATION currently can I follow I was brought here when I was %HESITATION bio thirteen twelve or thirteen %HESITATION I did my %HESITATION junior high high school some college %HESITATION I have into the country and into what we said the culture of it but without letting go my roots %HESITATION I feel I'm more into the Mexican side and the American side I still kind of like like to be in touch with what's going over there and political stuff %HESITATION but you know I like I grew up here %HESITATION I have my family here I got merry here so I mean you know I'm I'm kind of the American side as well in me %HESITATION and so far the known to us been living the normal life you know I don't pay them nothing excited %HESITATION putting a bunch of pounds let MSL blow in feel free and I think we all would donuts and hamburgers and hot good luck would you do well %HESITATION I was born here my parents are from the eighty %HESITATION but my like my canalis my brothers my oldest brothers and my sister are from there %HESITATION the actually born a local morning but in a yeah my parents moved there can't member why am a member the story now but the %HESITATION they were left my ID %HESITATION to go they had a house that Walter had land that they were building a house and then my dad came to work typical story into work one year and what an account going back on the right yeah I thought that don't exist everybody's everybody's on some of the house on so many of the staff back in the in the Vatican in year out of your parents that the civic center yeah they were supposed to be here for a year but dad was a butcher right so in Mexico they were being you the whole cal pretty much in the hole yeah you would have to chop it up here they bring it up it up they bring it already chopped up on the side yeah he just was much is easy zero inches %HESITATION he was making he started making good money so why leave when you got a good thing yeah funny my dad came here is a truck driver at the time working in the US and he got injured and in order to be able to get a medical attention he had a live here because he was leaving in the medical %HESITATION so we just can supposedly a months maybe a year later so we're supposed to be here just not if you get surgery and then we're going to be bounced back and you're still here and I'm now I have kids and they're here yeah I got a little into they have %HESITATION my parents %HESITATION our near for damn near fifty years here hello one of the other life do at that point most of yeah well if you're more than that they live in me because I'm I'm sure I'm not sure there %HESITATION memories you know that when we were young and you know this funny what they look like to go back to make on this yeah the most of their lives you guys are grew up here in it yeah I mean my brother my brother my older brother was like five when he got here and %HESITATION and then there were three more of us so total of six and %HESITATION you know what you're referring to pretty proud that they they they they got to live their American dream right they came here with nothing right just like here it over Norian they came with nothing to lose %HESITATION was you had to get into debt just to get here my dad got deported three times and %HESITATION he can come back in the last one he didn't want to come back but my mom was like like you got your to figure it out but I'm not leaving right so you better figure out how to get back right and so %HESITATION but anyways %HESITATION now we're Americanized than we do much and when we do we give our country that the mental it's a our goals Rios sung as excessive to the to the Max code yellow here at the we have that mentality of working hard playing hard you need a hard I mean we we bust our asses and when it's time to enjoy we really enjoyed our our time and our money well you know what's interesting about the group that we're that that we have here right you two guys plus Wes is you know we've all worked together and we've all worked like outside and and different projects and different companies in I'm like if I had a job like if I was to sell some sort of business and I had to hire some people and I can hire you guys I wouldn't even think twice about it because I know I will discuss %HESITATION angle if something was wrong those guys are gonna figure it out right yeah I would have to worry like like if I was a high you're an event and I say all right here all the things that you know how it is when with the van planning yeah things go wrong and sometimes people don't don't know how to like they freak out they freak out Friday night I don't think it comes with experience you notice we had situations where we're going we have no idea what it what we're doing and we just kind of like %HESITATION the owner which is John does it you know I just jump in order to see I hope this works the you know and and sometimes you know it works well do you live %HESITATION shoot you know then you get confidence in your real life all right the next you know that if it didn't work you're like fuck cuddly fix this stuff yeah yeah and I got two problems but I had a great attitude is and I got a couple friends and and you know as well that when they're like should I do this should I go into that and I'm like look I'm not worry about you not being able to do the job because I know you can figure it out yeah you know would work starting with that kind of personal yeah and and that's what I'm trying to get at it it's not so much %HESITATION like that that what I'm gonna get is not is that it's uncommon it's uncommon because I've I've worked with enough people were like oh now something went wrong they're in trouble yeah they're not gonna be able to figure it out right so they think there's like a common %HESITATION them a thread amongst all of us that you know it's like it's not just about working hard because I've seen you know I've seen twenty people that they work hard but they just did not get they don't think through things right yeah true some that's why I think that we all get along so well and this is going to be a project because we'll just you know find a way to do great work I agree and the fact that Wes is in here also I mean it's I think it's going to be for our audience I think that's how it may be you know sometimes maybe was will be missing maybe I'll be missing receipt though it just depends the R. weeks or roots are daily life today were recording on a Tuesday yeah I'm really glad that we got to get even though it's very late so so the audience doesn't know because we haven't told him but we met at eight o'clock it's nine thirty right now falling out and and I need to go home even though so in terms %HESITATION even though we got even though I was tired you know before this thank I feel good now good I guess the the changing like I feel like this is an energy kind of %HESITATION you said you said it before I think you said it I know I thought it this is a little bit like therapy right like there's another route there's like a stress release in doing this process so anyways %HESITATION so let's talk about this week when you said you had some ideas yes our good days are a is a man you're both a composite okay sorry about that guys %HESITATION Suria %HESITATION we're talking about %HESITATION Wes being fat yes yes now we all these factors affect so I think he's out trying to get a federal tonight that's why you %HESITATION trying to get a position to win I think it's trying to break into the well the whole situation %HESITATION you know series about not eating you know what he's nothing close to yeah I think that's what we think is out there having a real favorite yeah we had plans in touch is going to look into it but yeah this situation so we might you know want one of us might be missing one of these days and just as always yeah our daily life may get in the way you mean maybe two of us will get together you know maybe one day it'll be just draw dies so %HESITATION by the way the show continues it we're gonna try to stick to once a week even if it is a Monday but if it is Tuesday and %HESITATION that way you don't bring bring it and keep continue to show of the Kansas and we can't use you guys like it I told drew in the west before you guys had a good thing going last year in this funny I didn't listen to it last year you told me about it last year but one by a I started listen to and to it this year and I've been just listen so I started work because I have my own %HESITATION tires arms and and so I have a dumb got music all day and instead of the music I start having to show up and that's how we start intention and listen to it over and over again in a in a meeting listening to the show's repeatedly doesn't yeah what it was entertaining so that's why I like is it on the teaser I'm happy to be here this is I'm actually I was fans of you guys before before I was even here my my personal experience was %HESITATION I was I was trucking at the moment but I would listen to the podcast and %HESITATION the worst thing is for me is that I wanted to give an opinion or be part of it and I couldn't you know I just had to listen to you guys and I'm like Bob and I will just be there so you can make a joke of this of making a comment about and %HESITATION I know I got again it is because I feel comfortable with Andres would last now we obviously you to hear the %HESITATION at the we really close as our friends and what a friend like brothers yeah you know %HESITATION in the sense of you know we trust each other I guess a lot in in our personal lives and our surroundings %HESITATION so it was for me which is kinda like man I wish I could be there and the when you it sounded for right yeah so you want to be the yeah yeah I'd like to have some beers and in a what what don't know yeah yeah it's like you know but but that's why but as much as that you know I I felt that we have so much stuff in common you know yeah they sometimes we don't talk about you know when we're going through as in like I'm losing weight in the business card and I'm you know what asked is on my doll this weekend and I just I don't care you know or sometimes I'm like doing really well and I I just wanted to check share that with somebody and I don't have it I don't have that person you know and then just wear whatever it's there yeah and at the open up this space in order for us to speak and share with each other and you know sometimes you know give you eight that them up you know and say you did a good job or when you gonna let loose track and be like Hey you know get back on track you know like a what is it what are you said we're kind of all of your of your stuff so we went we went to back in line yeah so it's interesting right because if you look at any like %HESITATION self help program or like even like the Alcoholics Anonymous stuff like that where the E. X. support groups one of the very first steps at all and it's just a meeting you the meeting you have a problem right if you can out loud say Hey I have a problem with my weight I have a problem maybe eat eating too much %HESITATION maybe I have a problem with sugar yep but you know there's all these objections is fitted actions and yet that are out there you may not know you may not and maybe you know but you're in denial about it right and so just being able to open up about it like today it's funny because when we were sitting at %HESITATION we're in a we're in a conference room today and we're walking I've known and the the daughter of the the gentleman that they own this place having to be here and with his %HESITATION with her %HESITATION husband and we say what are you recording as a social equipment on the go or doing a podcast and and nervous I really do what I don't know I was like never served in what we're doing yeah what year is it kind of was she pretty though you got my so but you should get nervous is something that people what does want to see the one way I mean I guess one night when I used to somebody coming Hey what what what is it about you know yeah it was I think that's that's wanting to be like okay we've we've admitted were fat in front of each other yeah but now there's like this third party that this police this is a quality just call may get symbol in weight loss but because I mean look at this it's a you're talking about its weight loss you're talking about something that relates to yeah a lot of a lot of people whether they admit it or not what is it that first or second the season in the US I mean you know whether they admit it or not yeah they they they can relate to it yeah it is not only fat people there's people that are not over weight but they feel like they want to lose some weight and the cat they don't they are they're not able to so the this the fact that I'm intermittent fasting was doing the carnivore you're doing the keto you're doing the choosing yeah those are four options that they can probably pick they can pick from and damn it may work for them just as of may work for us it could work for them too and they're not overweight well I got I put as example my girlfriend she what she's not overweight but lately she's lost a few pounds and she saw me lose the weight and she started because you got into it %HESITATION she looks even all of them for it I would I never saw it I never thought she was over it at all so there's people in she deals with that she loses she gained a pound she loses a pounds you gain a pound it's the same journey that you would %HESITATION are having maybe it's five pounds in ten pounds yeah but it's a pound for her is just as difficult as to ten twenty pounds for us yeah you know him so it's the same it's the same situation for us as for any a lot of people can relate to it yeah and so one of the things I want to bring up a really just touch on is what kind of a commitment we are going to have not not to the show so much but just like I feel like when I was thinking about was just listening to you guys talk about how you guys look forward to it and even though you're listening to it later in New yeah we have somewhere in the in the neighborhood between fifty to two hundred listens depending on the episode last year looking at the numbers last week and I wonder if you know I know some of those people that were listening were were were %HESITATION %HESITATION people that I knew but they could not be people I know and I wonder if there's people out there that we're just like depending on not depending on the show but looking forward to the show and then when we in west kind of trailed off to I feel like we we let them down I think this is right you let me down sorry I was listening to that and so I cry with a box of donuts I'm sure we use it all those guns either of them you know I just eight one well I could because really the whole white one box thanks again there was only one box and got three of almost and gather that was what eight SO you do not yeah so I think what what I'm trying to say is that I really want to make sure whether it's with their it's all four of us or it's two of us or just even one of us that we have some consistency and really some commitment to deliver the content right because %HESITATION salute even if it's even if it's us like coming in and being like you know what we had it we took an al this week all of us yeah right yeah it'll happen %HESITATION we did terribly but we're here talking and we almost have to pretend like there's if there's a fifth person in the chair that we're we we have to support that makes sense yeah %HESITATION does the listener listener %HESITATION so anyways %HESITATION let me let me touch a little bit on this week we were supposed to win no we didn't really and what we are I needed when I went in myself okay but I I wish we can do it all here so we can keep track because every skills different everything on my team to pound into but at least we we get one scale which is going to be like %HESITATION industry scale number one is that in those rules those well we have one here in the office %HESITATION the one for the truck drivers now it has to be I'm serious at regular skilled close up to like probably three hundred pounds no no no four hundred they're all right yeah so yeah so you have room to grow taking at you can test the limits on it I want to see because over four hundred announced worldwide in the breaks the funny thing is they're made of glass I want to make it a error the one of my house it's me that this could be a and he goes above three hundred okay so above three hundred the way that I that I got this %HESITATION this week it was three east I was set at I thought it was two sixty three seventy okay %HESITATION seriously I'm really like I was three seventy three years ago okay and that's when I tested using it because I got diagnosed with diabetes okay right and but I was like and it really helped shaped like a really bad like really bad hell shape I had problems with asthma then %HESITATION obviously the overweight and the deputies %HESITATION they want to give me medicine and all the stuff that comes with it I mean you know like an order also I don't know I refuse everything I walk out of the office %HESITATION and I started to them is it enhanced to cry about it no I went home and nice them like it was kind of like a click on my on my brain said that that you know I'm done how much is this and I did I did I did for %HESITATION you flip the switch on yeah it was it but it was but are you able to back off yeah but it was weird because it was just something that nobody can get me out of it I was so stubborn about it like nothing is gonna stop me it doesn't matter who comes you got scared into it pretty much I got a scare into the my health and yes sometimes that's what it takes in this time back then which is I have only my daughter and I'm like no I'm not going to do this I want to be able to play with her and run into these things you know I did it and two months I drop like a bottle of like two months and a half seventy pounds which is a lot in a maintain and maintain myself well like I came pro like I can probably end up with the three hundred pounds and I probably picked up after going back to eating everything in and not just %HESITATION the the choosing %HESITATION pride like twenty pounds SO three twenty I meant to myself I that like for almost a year which I was very happy and then I become a trucker and do that with the way that like you know three twenty three twenty five three thirty five you know it I start jumping numbers and I'm like shit I need to go to Walmart and buy juices and things you know like I'm not gonna you know make any but I was doing all over the %HESITATION all over the road on the on the US so my choices of food was very limited everything was called junior I swear there's the there's nothing but colleges and using some weights can help the bull shit nothing tastes everything to the sent the letters the tomatoes and cucumbers pickles they all taste the same the bread tasted slowly all come to a plastic bag I don't know do but it's his right I got so tired of it since I stopped I stopped doing %HESITATION long haul for it's going to be two years and I haven't stepped my foot in a kart Yunior or the subway I gained the weight music I don't do anything with it without collision with the subway you know but the first two years like I like I really I really got a head on on the food and it's just there was no other options because I all but you can take a salary what is just you don't understand salads out in like but even by Sullivan call yourself the same way about his C. C. S. it is as a brick in out on the dressing I personally don't like dressing you gonna be like yeah right you know that resting is and %HESITATION I don't like rattling Dennis that if I do it's like all of oil would %HESITATION vinaigrette you know it or lemon juice lemon by itself would be a little salt pepper and that's why I throw myself out but I just it was just crazy how the food was just feeling like my I was to getting waiting and waiting and I got a point when I'm like fuck this you know I fail I feel big time I did this big effort for two months and you know I just I just I just lost it in a can I hit me to certain point on on my personal level like you know like broke me a little bit as in like shit you can keep it up you could keep you did you did all this you were folk is you were going for a you were getting at and they you just what happened you know and right now it that's what I'm I'm having a hard time right now is just really does is switch the switch from like focus in and wanted to do I think that's what this part because we'll do that switch for you I think because you're gonna come in here we're gonna talk shit to you because you have it yeah sort of make you and that's the idea that's all therapy like two was saying it was that's what this podcast can be comes in for our listeners that's gonna same idea whether you're not there listening to it I think part of it too is it's very hard to maintain that the Spartan style diet like running running that light on union couldn't weren't know what what I say smart and I mean like yeah maybe maybe that's what you meant %HESITATION like you're gonna be perfect can you do this thing that's really hard to do but the second you you let it go then it's like I go the other way still swing the other way I I know this because I've done it like I've been we all have I've done some crazy like like feats to get to get like a down you know ten pounds right like I think early on in the episode and the episodes I was down eight pounds yeah the first week yeah yeah yeah I mean I was not allowed to give one week it looks like twelve pounds yeah yeah something stupid like that right %HESITATION in the car got me right back here with the fat asses are you know are you back to the way you said you were when I and ordered back them exactly where I started okay yeah so you raise all of last year people I'm just gonna start over I'm gonna delete those episodes and like this isn't over yet the only thing the only thing I I notice on myself as I'm back to two seventy but I'm not as sick that's the only thing I I notice this this time from the first time that I was there so maybe that's why you're not scared yet that's why you have a flip the switch yeah that's probably %HESITATION I mean I don't know if that's what it is like I don't I don't have any like I'm on my last night you know I don't have I'm still not taking any medicine for diabetes %HESITATION I mean I do get check every year to the doctor like it's mandatory for me and I bouncing Eichel can hi imminent and drop in or whatever but yeah but it's just it's just out of control you know this this month what I do really good in this month's where I'm like completely out of control and I mean I'm I'm sure our daily life comes to play as well you know there's a little so it took choices already like it starts from the very beginning right like I know that when I if I wake up and I make the first a bad choice the first meal down like I forget the stays over mmhm but if I make a good choice then I have you know for that first you know breakfast or whatever you feel good know what I what I'm just trying to say I do feel better about myself because I made a choice in it it does that really make me feel better but then if I'm not really paying you know like being mindful of what I'm doing then there's a fifty fifty chance that the next meal will be a good choice or a bad choice but if I make that for but what I'm trying to say is if I make that that very first decision in the morning to make a bad choice then it's about almost a hundred percent guarantee that I will make a bad choice for the next room that makes sense just like that first meal they say it's the first the first meal of the day is the most important right I think we should do is get up into your bed I should be here first thing to do you know what I mean I bet every day but I don't do it right away I do it after I get a better what that's what that does not see it so so speaking of which I case how does the bed come here have you ever thought of not because I heard somebody whose is like the first thing you need to do in order to feel kind of like sorry %HESITATION that positive energy like all I'm doing things right the first thing you do this to you but like I did it because I don't like I reach the goal right away I think I don't book I don't do the you don't do your butt the you don't do so to make when you do it does it make you feel better now what is what does it mean that he might work for him you know I wake up and I do my bit for the most part I do my bit yeah my wife deals in the every single day but I have a bunch of little yeah if you don't have the only really awesome if she does a better what I don't do that badly get up before her that way we're gonna just recording and when we go back to sleep when my brother and I were thinking having like an hours yeah and he has a rebate of up this week can you read that the idea that when you're going to bed your your %HESITATION negotiating with the person that with the person that's waking up in the morning like like that this happens to me even if I'm tired rated tonight I bet you I get that then I'm gonna set my alarm for four in the morning for yes for informers on it I I it's just one of the things that I I what I've been trying to do for you here this week for some it like five times in the past you get the point is not working it is I think the person I am in the morning is like %HESITATION no that's a terrible way do we think in the yeah it's like you're negotiating like insulate the negotiation is like %HESITATION how bout four AM and then my you know for him drew is like %HESITATION now and then and now that I can't I can't you at six AM morning ruins the negotiations a lot I put my number six thirty and then another one at six fifty and then another one at seven ten and I don't get up to seven thirty he's a small right now my life is I don't have a I wake up you know twice a night because I have a one one half their injured one is a pain that I mentor and and I can I can I completely straight out but I have a one one and a half and attitudes diapers so I have to wake up at least twice a night change a diaper and go back to sleep but then usually throughout the day no don this is what you're actually I read your ad hoc actually to Cassie you caught the call me somebody call me one of you guys call you called and I I was completely up you know yeah yeah I call you know the you're always yeah I work a great guy what is I'm not used to people take naps because I've never taken it up and if I take a nap during the day I wake up in the bitch as mood I'm pissed the %HESITATION is that that doesn't make me feel that's weird I love naps the high heat of I guess take them now you know I'm working full time the only yeah the only thing is if I take a nap I can I can go to sleep early I studied it in its own right okay pushes my clock the person not me a little in this several hours fresh okay so %HESITATION so listen I think to to the listening audience we middle we made a commitment to that I think we couldn't really keep this week but %HESITATION for for a couple of different circumstances one is that we recorded the %HESITATION but %HESITATION I say which we try again next week %HESITATION wait what could we keep we said we're gonna wear away but in problem in a way that we don't have with your so yeah %HESITATION this move again or something and then have you guys chose and what you can and what plan you're gonna give up I know well I'm I'm injured you to go back to the Jews Jews okay and and a good thing what I liked about it is that we're gonna be able to show it on the on the Instagram that's what a lot of people just like the thing when when I say Jews it's a liquid and it's not so at least I would have a chance to show exactly you know like look this is my lunch and I'm not actually just drinking liquids you know it's like half and half you eat soup see it I mean you guys are gonna see it then and that's something that I'm I'm really excited about it you know being able to polls show it yeah posted and then seeing your stuff and then see injures stuff and then see %HESITATION west %HESITATION so that's one thing that I've been yeah the one thing that I've been push this week for example if your if you follow the instability W. O. podcast go follow it we're on Instagram %HESITATION we have others socials also but that's the one we're gonna use mainly Twitter all that stuff you guys never posted anything on there so I use it mostly to %HESITATION like %HESITATION harass is plus seven ten okay to change the name just doing yes I make I use it to like they give my regular account makes a point then your heart this is like yeah okay said they gave him one of theirs it must be a genius and and so by next week we'll pick something out west I know you listen and picks up that are you too and %HESITATION I've already I'm already doing in investing in fact I'm down in weight I've been doing admin fast already for how long how long you been in it about two months to months so what was I'm sorry %HESITATION I I could not really sure what my starting weight was I think was like three twenty six because I weighed myself at the gym scale okay and then I would keep weigh myself on that scale that scale and it would be pretty consistent but then I will one day they try to weigh myself again when I started fasting and it was broken it said like three eighty I was like yeah this is a wrong this is wrong so when I try to take the I think it was broken the first time you they came back and I like this girl at home but it is that when the house is two ninety five so actually this morning %HESITATION nine oh five edited out right from the amount of three hundred islands okay from from %HESITATION I started the year I mean it doesn't hurt to I started the enemy vesting two months ago and I am fact input posting everything on you tube so I've got to you too Jen that's all I know that's how I've been tracking my weight so how can they find that you two ten on the well you've got to search for me Pablo but roan and I've it's intermittent fasting blog what I'll do for the can we put on the description can we put links up looks for on night I think we can only put one link okay what don't put that in fact disco follow me on Instagram and I have it on my bios entry or with her we're gonna do is have a is going to have a landing page and to to be a podcast dot com okay just has all the links for like the podcast and different at different %HESITATION others of the reservation will you have your stuff up there we should do that because we've got the I mean Wes is got his stuff we for the audience to be able to connect with those were four guys them in all four of us of actors to the to the user which I've been acted on active on it this week as you can see it %HESITATION was drinking going to out eat meat and stuff like that yes like that has interrogating part is that he's out there drinking at the end is losing weight and I still I love the poem this week and I I went out drinking Saturday we went out drinking on %HESITATION Sunday and I'll pull it out so it doesn't appointment how much are you drinking I probably had to I don't know %HESITATION do that'll cal beers with a drinking %HESITATION I'm trying to people's I'm guessing you had like fifteen there's less than a fifteen dollars Sundays I we went to the to the was a because the improv in braille just remember that he's a six three yeah six three handsome well I'm talking about if I'm talking about your your volume of of your manners the mass media are there we are yeah we can we can take a lot of your yeah I would like somebody who's like I don't know how much beer I had because it's I don't count %HESITATION Armida guesses the made eight maybe and yours yeah during the show a baby had four and then afterwards we had the bar maybe have another five Jesus greatest nine yeah that's right his manner of billions I still like fifteen hundred cal yes that's a that's a long look I was doing the math last time we were sit at a table were all discussing because my cousin is also I never thought about the bug is my cousin was also is also doing I forgot we met the cheese use I think it's got to cut also but we were discussing it in I I started doing the math of what I used to eat right before the fasting when I was maybe at three twenty six sure I was I was pretty concerned about six thousand calories a day holy crap about six thousand gallons a minute that's about and I do the math that's about what it is yeah do the math some do it at least and he's a thousand five hundred per meal yeah and I do like for meals is %HESITATION do math love your today I started well I did my choose you know how many calories in the juice what is was it a very smart this is like probably not not not even a hundred thousand hello which is something is %HESITATION so you drink the juice in ten minutes you're hungry again so they would not honor it actually because my that's my appetite but what what what I was going to say it is I did that and then a the %HESITATION another kind of like a one of those origin %HESITATION drinks that are I can remember that is I've been a %HESITATION %HESITATION so nasty I like them a lot of people just hate them the vinegar the cabin anger out assigning %HESITATION double check drinks so have you heard of them I've heard of them never tasted it okay so early you your problem like it I like them the anyways so I did data dilute Jews %HESITATION and then this afternoon you know my wife make lunch which is very like chicken brass and bury lean and you know some rights for the kids a survey number I'm not gonna get the rice meat chicken and can a plane it and she's like you know what she's pregnant she's almost all at the end of the rope right now you have a bigger believed her you have a bigger but I think we're like about this my my voice lately because because because of the big big no no no that is a must in every room of my in the end he let you know that I just when he knows the joke about %HESITATION I don't know what he can to give because the billing they've been there what is wrong and but anyway so she's like you know what I cook and everything but I don't I don't feel like you need this food is a can you go to foster freezing give me like a burger with fries and I'm like shit and we're going one there and I went to get %HESITATION the you brought one back in of course I mean you had with in a way it was just like %HESITATION you know because I'm like I know I'm in it Louise if I'm going to my buying her something I'm by myself something sherry subjects of the system is not because and I already dinner and I'm like right when you heard the news waiting for her ordered I'd like to it on the spot you don't have it under this is like a teacher's aide up like I know but I just want to tackle stand alone can stop myself and only that I've been working for myself and I speak of listening to a common thing there's no depth control yeah it's got a very it's like but also if you live like within like a a football fields distance of a foster's freeze it has a light you're gonna eat some Fosse's trees because I used to live in front of one in front of Berkeley when I walked in front of it I used to live in when when I lived in Berkeley an apartment it was literally across the street well that's exactly you see nowhere and the smell of them like I could see the the smoke coming towards us and I'm like we are it doesn't matter how does that our dogs yeah and the corn dogs anyway looks you live we all live in the pretty densely populated area yeah there is this going to be for the quarter mile not even have about a quarter mile kind of ten and rest and you've got restaurants all the time please bottom up one five star restaurant that was it yeah right yeah we have like it that's like less than five minutes where I parked here walking distance is a toggle truck out there and then cross the street does not listed as an owner so don't tell me you know this because there's there's axis there's always acts yeah it's %HESITATION it's difficult to control symptoms of ma'am not something that I that I I was the other day that's my sister she's %HESITATION she's like all faded into like sports in the heat well another stinks and she sent me a %HESITATION due to %HESITATION link in the talks about how we know for certain people like certain drugs are addictive and how food is addicted to yes Sir certain people as well it's kind of the same thing like sugar stylings of silver and in nineteen listening to it in and I'm like you know is it because a lot of people just like fine sometimes a trauma into their food my goal I've I I live through this and I feed refugee into the food and I just you know because this happened in my life and she explained to you when that happens and when it's an addiction and I'm just listening to her all of the points and I'm like yep I'm addicted dammit I'm addicted to food I'm addicted to food and it's just not alert was also sugar did I eat anything the I. wheat bread need vegetables is this for my problem I think this is just more value I'll eat much of out of anything if it's healthy food I still had to control myself because even if it's even if his the Jews or what I can you know Pat of you know a stew of babies no it's just more about controlling the amount I I take it into a disease using could help you control it yeah yep this is this is this is just a certain amount of you know the liquid or when I'm gonna do a soup a certain amount of vegetables that I need to do or if I may do a salad this in a modest salad that I meant to do and that's how many at all and that's it what we get good well I was gonna say %HESITATION part of it is Tuesday if you're eating stuff like like sugar there's jurisdictions a real thing because not only are things that are sugary bad for you but your body starts just to say %HESITATION %HESITATION I like I the the the very things you're eating make you want to eat more of it yeah well yeah say %HESITATION as that's where the the fun is that they see Kenny one chips mmhm it's because there's literally stuff in it that makes you want to eat more of it right some anyhow that's one thing I think we got a task each of the with any if he's doing the choosing please the news got a he's got educate us and the audience on using on on before doing ki K. kilo then you got to educate us and because there's a lot of stuff I don't know about you lots of I don't know about you see yeah I've never tried any of you so yeah you know I'm I've been learning a lot about in the mean testing because I've been doing it so I can I can talk to you know I can never know because I'm an asset is within our fasting have you feel did you you said like about two months right yeah have the fear how do you feel your stomach shrinking yet your intake even if you want more like you in techselect dammit I'm already full blade tech is different and I've I've done the research on this and in fact hi on one of my you to allow you to channel one of the episodes is about this your stomach doesn't actually shrink so your stomach physically does not shrink it's an organ so what happens is just the communication between your brain in your stomach resets when you first it resets so then you're not able to intake is much your you communicate to your stomach communicates easier with the rain and says April stop eating because when I got in my personal experience when I finished using the first time what it does to month and a half I Sears they can eat only two tackles and that's what that's that's your site my my stomach feel like bad it reset and then just exactly what the hell I was the I lost a lot of fat on the belly but you know I was shocked when I try to go back in to the stack of sand and be like you know let's let's see how much I can hit I had two tackles and I was satisfied I was just like not hungry yeah that's the thing use you look at what you eat because that's what you used to eat right so your order for you order six whatever you eat because as we usually yeah thank you you too and then you're satisfied and then you look at the other four or five or six whatever the left or the playing and I don't want to wait I gotta eat those yeah I used to eat those I cannot but near stuffing faced with food that you don't need you don't even know what you just you're used to eating so again to %HESITATION area so %HESITATION before we wrap this up above the least talk during the week and you mentioned you had some ideas that you want to share yes a few segments and stuff like that but %HESITATION I'm gonna bring something for you guys next week so %HESITATION we'll talk about it next week that we we can expand little by little okay %HESITATION there's a few things that I wanted a just adding to the reservation or when you know how far we along right now we're at forty or fifty minutes fifty rooms yeah yeah it'll will look good I want it I want to share look tired around this or this idea where we're at when we weigh in right away and next week then we'll have the next week will be are like how we do right yeah yeah and whoever this is the least amount away by percentage maybe is the flag of the week and we get the call they ordered you know what I have never seen yeah in my family when I left the seventy pounds my brother Tommy it's like a little so he would have to look for the for the better but I don't know but you still want to it's getting fat I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw you at you at your lowest %HESITATION three hundred he just put a picture of them you just show me a picture on Instagram we're going to post a picture of the date that we we get a is it see we it's funny because we're going to use them let me start out of her but my ski mask you pictures in a B. before and my fat face gonna be and a river rivers that I used to mean I'm good at and I look at her just be fat scheme where he used to be fat no he's better so can you %HESITATION yes so %HESITATION that was just an idea throughout the because it be fun to do a lot of it you know it's like when you call somebody I a look at the same time yeah that's a good it's going to be difficult for me though because I'm not losing weight for us and I'm not trying to rather than that with us so okay that will never never because like when all dobby the judge for you guys I don't need to tell you guys I'm gonna gonna dissolving did you face this is lotus by the way I'm just give your one here so yeah yeah good luck with this apartment block with this we know see that is the opposite of the flood this is the the flag of the yeah the the one that is so %HESITATION I guess I would be back in maybe that's not gonna work I lost the power of this week you guys gave five weeks so yeah but you guys on the floor and yeah good idea is a good idea to all right so %HESITATION you guys want to touch anything else you think it's good for her now happy fourth of July people yeah before yeah this is the fourth week of fourth of July the we can for July and you guys have got a red light my mom is coming to town so it's gonna be fine I'm still planning what the hell am I going to do fireworks no I mean yeah but where you know where to go I did a little fire was all over there in your house yeah they do but I like to go to the beach the pier or something if you're a %HESITATION going to go up towards it %HESITATION your sister's area or my area yeah the Claremont colleges to really nice show later like big fireworks for for a small okay yeah is it a we don't need the fireworks there's no worries every mortar everybody buys although the weather was in theirs everybody has I spent %HESITATION fourth of July in Baldwin park on time I thought I was I thought it was a war going that's what is so great leader I didn't believe call like he was just like don't don't don't don't don't I mean it was just everywhere and then when they rented a fireworks the people I was in I won't say who they were now I know them because since then but they started putting mental's and and and coke bottles louder than the players well is it is like it goes right when I was in high school there was on the corner of where I live now we're not in the corner like in the neighborhood but do it it's on the main street there is there is a parking lot and people used to get together and do fireworks there well we used to go there every year and we'd start throwing them at each other that's right so what do we would start like there's that making is that tell you how to do it with the link that I want to give people ideas but there were big like you would put it on the floor in the fly in in in any direction so in a random direction and you just have to get the fuck out of where your skin yeah and then at the end the explode and I had one burn my eyebrows really the side of my eye part of my eyebrow hi I have a the ones that we can embody test was the one that has like a little long stick and if he's gonna go though but these explode louder no no yeah they burned part that's how I learned I grew up throwing each other on the street like the yeah what are you smarter by beard got burned because I was in high school I had a beard and mustache I would like to put this half my field I was like structures that explains it explains a lot well yeah well how ugly your well I mean I always I mean a million for the better part of ten years when I was a what happened then use the flag with a week well it was a pleasure to see you guys I'm really was a pleasure fourth when entered please make up a minority but I get away I got ready my hug listen my number is already you're not just seven the Lakers and we're still waiting for court and then to make up his mind kind of you guys even follow yeah yeah I'm excited but hopefully hopefully guns in over here all right so that's it that's so that they're going to slowly build the team yeah this code and that's why I wasn't pissed that they were winning lesser it's okay yeah first name is expected to do everything it's funny how like they're like okay %HESITATION this can be as first year it's gonna be a building year we don't expect anything well by the way why the hell aren't you leaning yeah where the hell do you know what I think everybody in the lease the because the water jet we all wanted to be separate to come up yeah it's been ten years ten years now let me tell you this if there's a championship next next year I'm gonna be at that parade because that will take the parade over the world record put all that yeah it will record the part goes from the parade right that's our goal that's our goal yes I keep of yeah the keep this he doesn't had I'm not gonna have a recently I don't think I can agree to that as to what the I don't know I know you're gonna have risen I I'm gonna have to make so many points in order to go look at the link or you start building points start building point well taken with this yeah yeah you can go yeah let me get a family very well by the crowd is deadly mers and everything when you take your kids to this thing I've been to the ones in two thousand men just take him with pretty lazy older pretty crazy get is very easy I would love to go and you know go yeah you can babysitter and then you can take your wife %HESITATION yeah there you go yeah yeah yeah but not all your mobile yeah just for the weekend one one during the we're already let let let him first our plane and see we get close to that area and then we do if you need Grossmont to start listening to first of all first of all is that it is fair game first of all you should misstate the friggin eleven o'clock at night last night which is great yeah okay yeah this you listen you got to get her to listen because this is a listen we're not we're not looking for a last time you were with this thing great %HESITATION lied to her but I don't like we're gonna have beers once in awhile here so I know drew's that into that but welcome and only having one or two beers it eight but that's true it's the early years that yeah that's a problem yeah what can we cannot do that it was gonna come gonna have three two beers I'm down Sunday's cheat day now yeah now I am eventually lose weight I need to be like sharp focus on it and I don't want to be doing cheating shit decided to it the first time I ninety five %HESITATION your juices shot it but I I yeah and by the time you're in your third beer people are ordering more beers yeah that wasn't me that we know what was it that was what I was less that was was and I and I brother we're looking good fate you know license yeah that was done yeah %HESITATION I was very naive that's what I want to record it was terrible yes was it but anyway we have to that you greet that we need to keep records like I can I can drink a lot agrees under the control of the non that's fine but I mean we can I do it every Sunday like I'm not okay we skip this and this is gonna be next now what once a month okay enough for that but of those as well is you know is a lie those last two this is we'll see you can go anywhere below won't stop you okay in order for me all right well as we are here we're on a good night you know that the Ford stay safe people please don't do stupid things like I used to yet under driver Lisa yes we did make sure to get a drink you know you're gonna be the same %HESITATION train drives available cops out there but I'll get drunk with strangers or people you don't trust first of all there's a lot of cops at their second well first of all don't hurt anybody yeah so second mother's love because of their tickets are not cheap so and we're not talking the just for talking we've been in the beer industry we see yeah a lot of it will get ruined blues careers yeah Liz their career for a for loop or something really stupid money one indeed on the night you know yeah lives lives so don't don't don't be safe don't spend forty Bucks on a new over and %HESITATION don't spend ten grand and don't don't access killed yeah exactly looking within your life in prison yeah so all right very good good way to end the show downers %HESITATION I think we give you all of it yeah yeah that's basically what it does %HESITATION all right you can find us on Instagram at at T. W. L. podcast and %HESITATION we will get the person with whom %HESITATION I am in the oneMusic“Topher Mohr Alex Elena – Hot Heat”https://instrumentalfx.co/topher-mohr-alex-elena-hot-heat-no-copyright-music/Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0"Topher Mohr & Alex Elena – Mr. Pink"https://instrumentalfx.co/topher-mohr-alex-elena-mr-pink-no-copyright-music/Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0 See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

You can't discount the impact marijuana is currently having on states that have legalized recreational use. There's now more research and funding looking at the impact of marijuana not only from a medicinal use, but also economic footprint that funds many city and state government initiatives. Of course, liquor industries are curious and want to make sure this doesn't hurt sales. Will it? I don't know, but today's guests do. David Ozgo, Chief Economist at Distilled Spirits Council and Clay Busch, Vice President of Heavy Grass join the show to talk from their respective sides. Those advocating widespread legalization helps everyone, and those taking precautions for its hurting sales of the spirits business. Show Partners: Batch 016 was a project that took Barrell Craft Sprits over a year. They selected 9 to 15 year old barrels with similar profiles from different distilleries. It’s deeply concentrated, but not too oaky and finishes with a toasted orange note. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Use code "BOB2019" for discounted tickets to Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. (Offer good through 6/30.) Aged & Ore is running a special promotion on their new Travel Decanter. Get yours today at PursuitTravelDecanter.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Kentucky state pride. What's your connection to bourbon? Give us some background on your organizations. Do you encourage smoking weed to harness creativity? Is there a concern from the Distilled Spirits Council with the combination of marijuana and spirits? Let's discuss consuming responsibly. Should brands try to align themselves with marijuana? Tell us about the research the government is doing on marijuana? How would spirit companies use marijuana in their portfolio? What is CBD compared to marijuana? Do you think marijuana has an impact on the spirits industry? Are people worried about marijuana impacting spirits? How do national companies handle marijuana use with employees that live in legal states? What do you think about experimentation of marijuana in spirits? What is your goal in regards to marijuana? What are your thoughts on hemp? Are they worried about the spirit or their pocket books? How can you pair marijuana with whiskey? 0:00 Well now my fire alarms going off. You hear it? 0:04 It's all good. 0:06 Unless he's burning. For God's sake, Kenny. Yeah, I know. 0:08 This podcast was so hot guys, we torched the apartment. 0:24 This is Episode 206 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny. And as usual, a little bit of news. We've announced here on the podcast of all the distilleries on Kentucky having multiple million and billion dollar expansions because the bourbon boom isn't stopping, it's not slowing down. And in 2016, Buffalo Trace began making their progress on its $1.2 billion infrastructure investment. This started off with four new barrel warehouses and a $50 million bottling hall that is now nearing completion. New barrel warehouses double a double will be double See, and Double D have been built and are filled with barrels that will continue to age which will eventually fill around 70 million bottles of whiskey. Now this is all located on what's called whiskey farm, which is a 200 acre plot of land adjacent to Buffalo Trace. The fifth new warehouse double E is taking shape with constructions of number six and seven that every plan for the end of 2019. Each of these warehouses are unique because they are heat cycle during the winter months, even with its limited stock and having to wait for age do its thing. Buffalo Trace is committed to not raising prices or diluting proves to fill more barrels. Last week on the roundtable we discussed would you ever drink a marijuana infused bourbon? Well, this show takes it kind of in a whole new direction. You can't discount the impact that marijuana is currently having on states that have legalized recreational use. There's now more research and funding, looking the impacts of marijuana not only from a medicinal use, but also its economical impact. Of course, liquor industries are curious, and they want to make sure that this isn't going to hurt their sales. But will it? Who knows? But I can't be that expert. So we're going to find out from our experts today. So we have David Ozgo, the chief economist at the distilled spirits Council and Clay Bush, Vice President of heavy grass, they joined the show to talk from their respective sides of the table. So those for its widespread use. And those look at the precautionary look at the potential impact of marijuana on the spirits business. Now with that, let's hear from our friend Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with the above the char. 2:45 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from barrell bourbon. batch 16 was a project that took over a year, we selected nine to 15 year old barrels with similar profiles from different distilleries. It's deeply concentrated, but not too oaky and finishes with a toasted orange note. Find out more at barrel bourbon.com. 3:02 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. My wife held her belly and said, Freddie, it's time we jumped in the car. I drove 90 miles per hour to the Clark County Memorial Hospital. And nearly 24 hours later, our first son Oscar Leo was born. He was a complicated birth. And we chose this hospital because it specialized in natural birth, even though we didn't mean to end up having a natural birth. That's a whole other story. Why am I telling you this because I regret falling for that hospitals marketing plan, as my son does not have Kentucky on his birth certificate. Don't get me wrong. I love Indiana, the people the food, the cities, but work and tuck ins and there's something special about being born and raised in the state. And while I love my home state of Oklahoma, I'm a proud Oklahoma State Cowboys, Kentucky and bodies of state pride you cannot find anywhere else. It's an every cask of bourbon horse scalping in the metals. The state is an amazing state. And when you travel outside these borders, folks look at you as if you know something, because you live in Kentucky. If you're bred born and raised here, that's like an extra 10 points are cool. I think there's even a T shirt for that. But for bourbon in particular, being from Kentucky gives you more cachet. And if you're from Bardstown especially, it's as if you were baptized from the holy barrel of Booker and Parker beam was your Godfather, the gravitas is real. And if you ever drank with the Kentucky and bards tab, you know why it's our Mecca, our holy place of American whiskey. And it's important to me that my sons live and love the Kentucky pride. After all, as my wife says, they're the sons of bourbon. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, do you have a cool take on Kentucky? Let me know. Love the state, as you know, I'll retweet it or share it on Instagram. Hit me up at Fred Minnick. That's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers. 5:12 Welcome back to bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny and Fred here in attendance today, talking about a subject that is I don't know it's a little little bit hot, a little bit a little bit tipsy because it is two controlled substances and figuring out exactly where do the legalities sort of fit in? Where do one compete with one another to because this is a this is a market after all? And I don't know Fred, do you think this is just considered the the all out sin podcast? 5:45 Well, if we had beer, yeah, we would we can be able to throw that on there. And big, big beer is not a fan of cannabis growth. And so when we look at when we look at marijuana, and American whiskey, the seem to be a lot more compliments, then competition. In a lot of cases, you know, from a lot of consumers do both. And then, you know, the distillers don't seem to be as afraid of the introduction of marijuana legally as beer companies do, and wine and wineries. But at the same time, you know, here in Kentucky, we still have a lot of dry counties. And you know, in some in some districts, you smoke weed, you're going to the devil so and so we see a lot of like Prohibition era mindsets when it's applied to marijuana. 6:42 Yeah, I typically tend to agree with that. However, the one thing that we have seen within the changing laws of marijuana is that it's it's starting to break down barriers a lot faster than probably what she's seen a lot of things in regards of alcohol to from California and Colorado and the whole entire nation of Canada is now recreational. So you're starting to see these these things coming. And it's I think it'll be harder for entities to try to stop slowing its role because it's a, I guess it's a product that is probably going to eventually make its way out and marijuana in general recreational marijuana to the vast majority of United States over the next few years. And that is why we have brought in our guests today to talk about this and what could the potential impact be on bourbon? So we have got David Ozgo. David is the chief economist of the distilled spirits Council, as well as we have Clay Bush, who is the vice president of heavy grass. So Gentlemen, welcome to the show. 7:43 Thank you very much. Good. It's good to be here. 7:45 Yeah. Thanks for having us. 7:47 Yeah, so Clay I'll kind of go with you first. You know, this is a bourbon podcast after all. What's your sort of tie in with with bourbon? Do you drink it? You have a few bottles as a cocktail guy what's what's sort of your your Avenue 8:01 and a previous in a previous life? I actually used to help produce beer bourbon festivals, which is how I met Fred. I've always been a traditional Tennessee whiskey jack daniels guy just growing up naturally and in college jack and coke was always my go to that's how I was introduced to whiskey. But as I did more shows in Kentucky's in Louisville, specifically med debt, you know, with Danny Wimmer presents and the festivals that we did there because I used to be a promoter with Danny Wimmer really got to know and educate ourselves in the bourbon. So I'm a bourbon fanatic. I had a good collection. But being in California, it's hard to find the good stuff. So it's going it's running out. But a big Blanton's fan, he is probably my go to if I if I could ever, like have a you know, one sip of one thing, Blanton would be my my go to. 8:49 Nice. 8:49 What about you, David, do you have a particular bourbon that you gravitate towards? or anything like that? 8:55 Oh, gosh, that's always a loaded question. When you're talking to someone that works for a traders Association. 9:02 Didn't didn't didn't. 9:04 Let me just say there are a lot of really wonderful products out on the market. And I enjoyed most of them. 9:11 It was it was about as generic as we can get. 9:17 You running for Senate in 2022? 9:20 No, but I'd like to keep my job in 9:22 2019. So although I can David, I imagine that your your plank would be pretty good. You would just be talking about reducing excise taxes and reducing tariffs. I mean, you'd have all kinds of people voting for you with that kind of language. 9:38 Well, we are quite popular with a good portion of the public. And we're just hoping to bring the Congress around along as well. So yeah, we've had some tariff issues, but we're hoping to get past them so that the Europeans can enjoy our fine bourbon products. 9:56 Absolutely. And I think we should also let people get a little bit more familiar with with your organizations that you belong to. So David, if you could give a little bit of color and background on what is the distilled spirits Council. 10:09 Sure, the distilled spirits council we represent most of the large, distillers, distillers and importers of distilled spirits in United States. So that means we represent the suppliers either the people when it comes to bourbon, the people that are actually making the bourbon or we also represents scotch rum, gin, vodka, all the distilled spirits. So if it happens to be an import will will represent the importer as well. And we have an organization here in Washington DC, we have a public affairs staff, we obviously have a number of government relations people. We have a science office general counsel office, and my office is the economic and strategic analysis office. So we do a lot of economic analysis. So we will represent the industry both here in Washington, DC, but then at the state level as well, where where there's oftentimes a lot going on. 11:08 And then I don't know if heavy grass really needs an introduction, but I want you to do it anyway. 11:13 Well, heavy grass is a we like to call ourselves more than just a cannabis company. We're a lifestyle brand. You know, we we think we're amplifying to everyone's experience. I mean, cannabis has been amplifying, you know, creativity. Other experiences throughout history since been introduced to the market. So we are a rock and roll aggressive brand. We are a recreational brand, we do not take a medical stance, we're not here to say we're our stuffs going to help treat arthritis or influenza, it's an anti inflammatory, we're here to say, you know, if you want to go to a concert, smoking, a heavy grass product is going to help amplify your experience. But more than anything, we're a community. We're super serving the rock and roll and metal community, we're all inclusive, even if you don't consume our products, we want you to be a part of our events, and just be a part of everything we're doing. So we're constantly out especially in Los Angeles, where I'm based in the company's based and we're out for helping, you know, support bands predict producing events and activating other music festivals, but also, you know, being a being a an additive and amplifying experience for bands in the studio, when they need that that creativity or some way 12:18 so so you're you're you're supplying bands with heavy grasses, they go into the studio, is that what you're saying? 12:24 Yeah, sometimes you had you needed to write a really great solo. And then a lot of times instead of, you know, this is what they use as their outlet to get creative and they smoke cannabis. But another thing that we utilize cannabis for is the relaxation part where a lot of these guys are using it to go to sleep like myself. I've been an active cannabis user since I was 12 from Colorado, and cannabis has always been my go to to help relax and go to bed and my mind's constantly racing our car or going to school or playing football or whatever was in Canvas was always that, you know, allowed me to kind of relax and go to bed and start my day over. 12:59 Alright, so you have you're not a you're not a medical cannabis. But let's say that I'm a 65 year old heavy metal fan, and I have glaucoma. Can I enjoy your product at a concert and maybe have some side benefits of the medicine? 13:15 I'm sure I'm sure you could but we're not going out there basically tell you that this is going to help a block home if you're smoking cannabis in that realm we're expecting you to go out it's adding to your you know, I'm a big we call whiskey and weed pairing. So I constantly like pairing my whiskey with my jack and cokes and I'm going to a concert. So that adds to my experience, it creates a different euphoria for me. And that's always been a part of my culture in the way I've experienced live music. So I think for a 65 year old heavy metal fans going and Ozzy Osbourne concert, he's probably has a cannabis alternative that's helping with his golf glaucoma. And he's a part of our community just to hang out and enjoy the enjoy the concert with us. 13:51 So David, you heard that side of things, and you know, the spirits community, you know, it's very, very much about drink responsibly consuming responsibly. Is there a concern from the distilled spirits Council, you know, that the the connection that combination of, of marijuana and spirits, you know, could lead to a non responsible experience? 14:18 Well, obviously, any product can be consumed responsibly, and any product can be consumed. non-response and responsibly. You know, we, you're right, we discourage, we encourage responsible drinking. If you think you have a drinking problem, or if you think you're going to have a few drinks and drive we are we, we discouraged that. Uber is a wonderful lifesaver for a lot of people. So you have a lot of options today, in order to keep your consumption of anything responsible. 14:52 And now Klay, let's go back, Sammy said You said you started smoking at 12. Now, yeah, even by today's standards, that would be pretty, pretty well illegal. 15:02 I mean, yeah, I mean, very much illegal. And even in Colorado, during that time, it was illegal. I still remember, this is not the way you're supposed to consume and introduce yourself to a product just like when you're drinking whiskey for the first time, you're not going to the backyard moonshine, or, to try it for the first time to get the ultimate experience and really get the benefits benefits of what you're looking for. I know alcohol is a slippery slope, when it comes to that the cannabis kind of falls into a different category in our eyes, you know, to David's point, we're about healthy consumption as well and safe consumption. You know, medical drugs have do not drive warnings on their on their bottles. You know, we have warning labels on ours, the alcohol industry costly, does great advertisements, pushing saved tapes, save consumption and driving and drinking and driving responsibly or calling Uber like you mentioned. So we're just a little different when it comes because we pair and I know when you don't want to pair with alcohol with traditional prescription drugs. But I think, you know, when you look at cannabis and data kind of kind of kind of shows the story where there isn't really any data show correlating a cannabis consumer to a death in the history of the product, there's plenty of correlations that kind of could bring other products into it, especially the prescription drug business, the fat and only and like the oxy Cotton's and, and the different types of opiates. That's an epidemic. And that's really why I think cannabis is kind of coming as an alternative. Now with the way technology is caught up, people are educating themselves and saying, hey, this may have been a prohibition product for so long, because it may be a mess with so many other categories, like the paper industry in the logging industry at the time. And and now the prescription drug business. So it's it's an exciting time, it's all about education, that's what we're all about is just educating people on our product at the same time. We're not a medical, we're not a medical product. 16:49 Now, to be clear, there have been according to the DEA, there's not there's not reported overdose deaths in marijuana, but there are deaths are linked to, you know, over use and driving. The Arkansas Department of Health just issued an advisory on cannabis, you know, so there are there are some things there are over consumption can be, you know, can be fatal. And there's also some studies that show that marriage, you know, the use of marijuana at a certain age can you know, trigger, schizophrenia and some people I mean, David, when you see those things, and when the spirits industry hears those things, and they hear the discussion of it, there's not as No, marijuana is not as fatal as alcohol. Is there a sense of, I don't know, pushback from the alcohol industry to you know that because at the end of the day, a lot of these marijuana when you're talking about marijuana, they lot of times push down on spirits. 17:59 I you I mean, let's be clear. Obviously, impaired driving is a big concern of ours, because what tends to happen is right now we have a breathalyzer out there with a breathalyzer technology has been around for I don't know, 5060 years now. In fact, it was the distilled spirits Council and some of its predecessors, they actually invested the money that developed the original breathalyzer, what tends to happen now is if you have if you're, if someone is pulled over with a suspicion of DUI, you can do the breathalyzer fairly quickly, if they test positive for alcohol, all automatically becomes an alcohol impairment, you know, because they simply don't have the ability to test for anything else. We think that's an important issue from a public policy standpoint, not just from the fact that we don't want to take all the blame for impaired driving, if it's not our products that are causing the real impairment, but we just think from a public policy standpoint, you need to know what people are doing. You need to know, in order to because so much of trying to reduce abuse of drinking or your abuse of consumption of anything, is to know what people are doing, and then you can properly educate them. So from that standpoint, we we need to we need to know what's causing impairment. And I, everyone I've talked to that's in the marijuana industry now is really on board with that notion. And, you know, they're advocating for research that could develop the for lack of better term marijuana breathalyzer. 19:39 Let's go to some mail set Klay brought up because he said he was a big proponent of pairing marijuana with whiskey as a as an enjoyment. Where did I slit Yeah, yeah, like Ferris. So hey, so good at my coconut 19:55 got my chocolate got 19:57 my memory marijuana? 19:58 Maybe it's a coconut milk? Wanna? Or maybe it's a coconut chocolate cannabis cookie? No, 20:04 it'd be that's it. That's an aggressive cookie. 20:08 So where does the distilled spirits council stand on the pairing of spirits and marijuana? 20:18 Well, right now, we haven't taken a position really. But in general, we would discourage you, particularly if you're going to be driving from using both products. You know, ultimately, let's 20:34 say you're, let's just say you're in your apartment all by yourself, you got a little something here, and you got a little something there. And they want a pair, both of them Does, does the distilled spirits Council have a position on that? 20:47 We don't have an official position on that, you know, we in general, discourage the use of both of them, if you think you're you're going to be driving at all, a lot of this is an matter of personal preference. You know, ultimately, you, you have to know what your limits are. You have to know how you can consume any product responsibly. 21:13 David, I got another kind of question for you, too, because Clay brought up a good point. And you know, he he's the proponent of the whiskey and spirits pairing. However, you don't see anything out there on the spirit side of the house that are saying like, Oh, yeah, like, we are going to embrace a lot of things that's happening inside of the cannabis world. You don't see, I'm not even to put a name out there of saying they're doing this. But should there ever be? Or is there? Is it just bad juju all around to actually have a brand say we're going to try to align themselves with, with marijuana? 21:45 Well, we're still doing a lot of research. I mean, obviously, this is a relatively new field, the federal government is finally starting to do more research into impairment levels. We're going to wait until the sciences in before we really been any kind of recommendation on that. 22:03 And it's important to note that every everybody reacts to these things differently. You know, the most of the studies that most of the studies that are out there, you know, basically have that kind of caveat is that not everyone responds to weed and, and booze the same way. And I kind of want to have a kind of, I want to know, you'd mentioned you guys are studying this What? What are you all looking at? From a as it as a trade organization? 22:38 Well, we're we're not the ones doing the actual research. It's really the federal government that's, that's doing the research. So, you know, ultimately, what we hope to find out is, you know, just what the various level impairments are, what level of consumption is safe, what level of is not safe, those sorts of things that, you know, you're you ultimately want to look at. 23:06 And I'll say this to constellation brands, which, you know, is a multi billion dollar company, it has interest in wine has interest in beer. And it's been making a heavy play into the American whiskey scene with the purchase of high West investments in Nelson the Greenbrier and Bardstown bourbon company, among others, they have bought stakes and marijuana companies. So that kind of tells you that the writing's on the wall, that these spirits brands support this now. So let's talk about how this is going to look when they get when this becomes federally legal. If it becomes federally legal. Well, how will the spirits companies use marijuana in their portfolio? David, I'll give you the first crack at that in terms of what you might think, 23:56 oh, gosh, well, you know, we don't make the bond decisions the purchasing the investment decisions for our member companies. So that's, that's really a question that you would want to address to them. You know, 24:10 certainly Ronnie I 24:12 asked several of them to come on, but none of them would come on, they all said you so wonderful. So they said you talk to you 24:21 you know, right now from what we seen, however, with regard you know, any company is always going to look for new products to sell and if a company believes that you know, a cannabis based product will fit into their portfolio whatever it might be. You know, that's that's ultimately up to them. We obviously because we are the distilled spirits council we concentrate on distilled spirits so yeah, very much aware of that the that constellation is made a rather large investment I think it was $4 billion and they're they're looking to develop that that side of their business 25:05 Klay What do you think what is what does 25:09 what does a spirits and marijuana product look like? As we see these investments coming in from larger companies? 25:17 I think it's not even about the current spirits in the current portfolio. I think they're looking at a category and being first the party before a lot of their competitors are and saying, Hey, you know, we all kind of fall in the same category, which in the wreck category, which is social, you know, social gatherings use for social purposes, at times, you know, or sitting at home to relax in the wine industry is very similar to how cannabis, some of the cannabis companies are operating not a heavy grass, per se, we I think we operate more like a whiskey company would. But I think constellation going and looking at it as they were going to go in and be first the party where they can own a category and leverage what they already know. I mean, these companies have no massive distribution, they know how to market brands, they know how to deal with content, clients issues, and we're worried about legalities. So I think they're just getting prepared for all 50 states to open up and then it can be really game on for these brands. I think with CBD and the Farm Bill passing and all these things that are just happening now recently with legislation I think you're going to see not a lot of infusion products and spirits industry because they haven't I don't think they're going to allow that to be legal yet with I think there needs to be more research done. 26:26 Asians You mean like a cannabis flavored whiskey you know think that'll have 26:30 CBD infused whiskey. You know, there's ways to do it still I mean, there's books out there teaches you how to infuse your whiskey with cannabis or any any spirit or beverage I but I think it's not going to be necessarily that coming first, I think they're going to introduce a new product through the through the umbrella somehow, which could be different than you know, another constellation wine product 26:52 if they allow you so you think the play is not necessarily to combine the two but to have a stake in the category as they would anything else. 27:01 I think these companies know distribution better than anybody and big business like that, especially the tobacco business as well. They're going to come in and put real infrastructure on a mass scale once all 50 states open up and ultra just invested on the opposite end on the tobacco side not to jump around it's a different conversation. They're doing the same thing in Canada as well getting prepared we're it's a very unique time to see those two companies go up there and throwing down billions of dollars into the category 27:29 Clay there's another kind of thing I want you to really touch on just a little bit because we are really an education program and I'm sure there's a lot of people that are going across you 27:39 know we were on PBS and all these other 27:45 iTunes the new home of PBS the but there's no I walk around downtown. It can be in Kentucky you could be in states that aren't legal yet you see signs it says like a we now carry CBD oils. people an idea of like, what does it stand for? And really, what is that? What is that product versus the traditional? You know what people really think what marijuana is 28:10 a difference is is basically the psychoactive CBD has zero psychoactive properties. So it can be used strictly for the health benefits side of cannabis than the product and the cannabis. So you know, there's different cannabinoids that go into the plants and different plants out there that do different things and provide different relief so the CBD can be extracted and it's not necessarily a smoker but I mean you have CBD vape pens out there for people that want to consume it that way. But a lot of its going into topical creams you know more health and wellness side A CBD pill for example can help you stay focused and help with anti anxiety at the same time so but without you feeling like you're quote unquote stoned right? The THC side which is still federally illegal is the psychoactive side and that's the stuff that makes you feel high. So I guess that's the best way easiest way I can determine you know, help your audience you know signify the split between the two this THC which is still federally legal. My company have you grass is a THC driven company so we we go on feeling the effects of using cannabis. CBD is the other side where it can help with the anti inflammatory it's used for more of the health and wellness side and the prescription benefits 29:24 and so you know, your uh, your your your spirits, drinker as well, kind of talk about what you think that your business has had on you. And if you think it actually has an impact on the spirits industry as well. I mean, when people have a choice, they're gonna go to the store and they're going to see two things on the shelf. Or they're going to choose one of the other Do you think there's still room for both of these that it's really not going to inhibit any sort of growth? 29:51 I mean, me personally, I don't think it really inhibits I know that for some people, they'll use cannabis and only consume cannabis that night drink, but those people are trying not to drink. So those people already understand and, and the big thing is understanding educate ourselves on consumption, which we've talked about a lot. David brought it up. You know, some people know they can't drink whiskey, so they drink clear liquor. And some people can't drink liquor at all. Some people can't drink beer. So I mean, I think it's understanding how to how to use it. Some people can't smoke weed and drink whiskey. I think I'm I think I just under over over time and learn how to pair it properly without me getting completely blown out of my mind. But it goes back 30:29 to education. It's your Viking jeans. 30:33 Nobody goes back to education and understanding Hey, if you know and I had to learn the hard way, I'm not gonna lie just like I had to learn the hard way. And when I first drink tequila for the first time, I drank too much and I threw up. You know, I smoked too much. And I passed out while I was drinking whiskey. So I think it goes back to healthy consumption. If you're going to smoke and pair you're definitely not driving. And we're not trying to advocate for that either. But we also create a strain of weed that pairs well with whiskey or blackjack straight. Which for your audience that doesn't know what cannabis looks like. This is what cannabis looks like. Is it pairs well with bourbon and whiskey because it's a spicier flavor when you consume it and out pairs, well, the openness of the barrels. So So we've pulled a strain out specifically because we understand that our cannabis community is already a member of the whisk community, and they're going to engage with both. So to answer your question, I think it's going to be case by case I think sometimes they're going they're just going to want to grab a bottle Blanton's or they're going to go in and say, Hey, I'm hanging out with my boys. I'm going to roll a joint. I'm going to get an eighth of heavy grass. I'm gonna get a bottle of, I don't know, patties and let's let's go let's go have a good time with my boys tonight and play some cards. 31:43 All right, David, what are the numbers say? Because I know that you're you're in the spreadsheets in the database. And so what what does that look like? Hey, it's Kenny here and I want to tell you about the Commonwealth premiere bourbon tasting and awards festival. It will be happening on August 24th. In Frankfort, Kentucky. It's called bourbon on the banks. You get to enjoy bourbon beer and wine from regional and national distilleries while you struggle with things along the scenic Kentucky River. There's also going to be food vendors from regional award winning chefs. Plus you get to meet the master distillers and brand ambassadors you've heard on the show, but the kicker is bourbon pursuit. We're going to be there in our very own booth as well. Your $65 ticket includes everything all food and beverage on Saturday. Plus, you can come on Friday for the free Bourbon Street on Broadway event. Don't wait go and buy your tickets now at bourbon on the banks.org and through June 30. 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Rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. 33:38 Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rackhouses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in 40 states and rock houses June box they're featuring a distillery that claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey rack house whiskey club is shipping out two bottles from there, including its beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye, for both of which were finished in barrels that were once used to mature America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged stout. And if you're a beer guy like me, you would know that's New Holland dragon milk, go to rock house whiskey club. com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. All right, David, what are the numbers say? Because I know that you're you're in the spreadsheets in the database. And so what what does that look like? 34:29 Yeah, well, it's a sad commentary on my life, I think, but 34:36 you know, we obviously, we have followed those with great interest for a number of years now. And we've looked at the three states that have the longest history of recreational legalization, namely, Oregon, Washington State, and of course, Colorado. And in all three of those states, we see no impact on our product. In fact, we took a look at the only way you could really determine what's happening to spirits, beer or wine volumes, for that matter, is to look at the excise tax collections, because that's really the only source of data that's going to include the entire market. And when we've done that, we see that well gee, distilled spirits consumption on a per capita basis since the legalization of recreational marijuana in those three states is up a little bit. And then when we you know, we've been gaining market share from beer for God, nine out of nine, the last nine years and probably I don't know 15 out of last 16 or 17. When we look at total beverage, alcohol consumption in those states, we see that on a per capita basis, it's either roughly flat or up slightly. So there's really just no evidence industries, three states that marijuana legalization has has had an impact on us whatsoever. 36:07 Okay, well, I guess we can just end the podcast now. And we got our answers. 36:12 But to that point, I like to blame it. The I know, the craft beer industry is one of those categories on a national scale. And David, you know a lot more about this than I do. If that numbers falling. I can blame craft beers because they're cannibalizing themselves. You know, there's too many options out there. There's no brand loyalty. And when you have that it's the Wild West. And it's segmented. And that's just my opinion. But you can probably talk better to that. 36:40 Yeah, well, you know, I mean, obviously, I've counterparts that do the same thing that I do for the craft beer industry, as well as for regular beer. And they say the same thing that Yeah, beer is down. But when we look at the states that have legalized marijuana, we don't see results that only different from states that don't have legalized recreational marijuana. So as a result, they they don't tend to really be so conservative. They haven't seen any impact from the legalization of marijuana, they the results are always the same, regardless of whether or not it's legalized or not. So I know that a lot of people claim that marijuana is supposed to have this massive impact on beverage alcohol, who knows maybe one day it will but you know, again, when you look at the states with the longest history, it is not and, you know, particular with Colorado. Wow, when you look at the Could you imagine a product becoming more socially acceptable than marijuana in Colorado right now? You know, it's no one has a problem with you using marijuana in Colorado. So, you know, I think we're getting some wonderful data from Colorado right now, just because it's in my mind, it's it's almost a fully developed marijuana market. When you look at the the rate of growth and whatnot in retail sales, it's, it's declined, or it's not that the rate of growth is slowing fairly dramatically, which is more or less to sign up a developed market. And, you know, pretty clearly it's not had any impact on beverage alcohol sales. 38:25 David, kind of another question about that, you know, you had talked about claims and what people say, what are some of those claims that maybe people were worried about that they want you to lobby against to say that marijuana could impact their their their distilled spirits? sales? 38:42 Yeah, well, first off, there has never been an effort, at least on the part of the distilled spirits council to try to hinder in any way shape or form. In marijuana legalization, we typically don't take a position on it. You know, we we do have several recommendations, which the marijuana industry agrees with the you know, we want fair taxation, we'd like to make certain that there are, you know, we have an advertising code, we advocate for sensible advertising code, and, you know, we advocate for, you know, keeping it out of the hands of, of younger people, just really sensible regulations that be honest with you. From what I seen, most of the people advocating for legalized marijuana agree with So, you know, from that standpoint, we've never there's never been? I know, I've I've heard rumors about big alcohol, trying to stop marijuana. Well, I guess you can consider me part of big alcohol and we've never had any such effort. 39:46 And I haven't heard that either to counter that. I haven't heard about big alcohol or really the spirits industry trying to handcuff our growth. It's really been the prescription drug industry, handcuffing US and other categories. Outside of I've heard rumors, a certain craft beers and certain big beer business. But it's really, I haven't heard much of it. I've heard it all. On the other side on the prescription drug side? 40:08 Well, there's been there were 40:12 I can't remember the exact story, but it was when Bernie Sanders was running. And there the there were some distribution companies that were that their emails became public or something like that. And that's, that's really where the big alcohol against marijuana came in. You know, 40:33 David, you remember that? You know, 40:37 I do know that the distributors, from time to time have voiced their opinion that, you know, you have a three tier system for beverage alcohol wouldn't be great to have a three tier system for marijuana as well. I think that might be really what you're getting at. And, you know, it's it's the only natural that's, you know, they would want a piece of the business. 41:05 And I'm trying to find it here. And this was not something that I had added top heavy. 41:11 Well, while you look for that, I'll throw another question to David, because there's a question that came up in the chat. You know, you talked about Colorado and how it's been sort of sweeping, and it's just part of the culture, and it hasn't really had a whole lot of impact on the economics of spirits themselves. There was a question that says, but if you if you work for a national company, it could actually prohibit them from utilizing drugs within sir sorry, marijuana with inside of their state because it's against the corporate drug policy. So 41:40 I have no idea really what the the demographics are of big companies that are based in Colorado, if there's the workforce works for national companies that wouldn't allow that. So how accurate Do you think that that data really is? Real quickly, it was a part of the WikiLeaks dump. And there was evidence in there that they were trying to undermine marijuana legalization, and it was largely connected to Bernie Sanders his belief in ending prohibition on marijuana. So yeah, so that is accurate. It was and it was the people linked to it was the wine and spirits wholesalers of America. So go ahead. 42:20 Well, what was the question again, 42:22 about the data accuracy of Colorado Raza residents? You know, 42:28 if if you're a corporation, and particularly if you're operating heavy equipment, or something of that sort, you know, you have the right to protect yourself. I mean, you're out there, you have potential huge liability. You know, Is it right for them to have a zero tolerance policy? Well, you know, that's, that's a difficult question. You know, if if they are going to be working, if you're going, you're working for a company, and there's the potential that, you know, you could potentially do some sort of physical harm. You know, 43:10 that that's every corporations worst nightmare? 43:15 No, absolutely. And there's another question that came in the chat. And this one is, is more more directed at Klay? Here? And there was it was talking about kind of like experimentation and figuring how are you mixing or infusing and he said that there is a blueberry weed infused vodka that's out there. He's got one that's a nightcap that has a relaxing CBD oil, and is brandy. Do you sort of see this as as the future of what people can experiment with kind of using their own oils and their own stuff? 43:47 I don't know legally, where you could sell that. I mean, it sounds like that's a black market product. I mean, that's kind of our problem right now is we deal with black market where legally you can't buy that market and in store because you can infuse a little liquor, liquor and alcohol have to be in a separate wall with cannabis, we're not allowed to coexist together still. So people are going to do that there's that you can google it right now and teach yourself how to make it. You know, you're going to find products out there that are going to hit the market and their stores are going to sell them. You know, we I live in Venice Beach. And there's a ton of black market products out here that are just normally sold down the street that are in regular stores, just because it's the part of the culture here. So I think it's until we get a real full legislative kind of structure around it just like the ABC laws and all that you're going to have the Wild West with us for the moment until more states open up and the government kind of create some structure with us. 44:44 What is that? What is that goal? To sit there and try to move this across more state lines for your business or for the industry in general 44:54 goals, education, and then in the stigma. The problem is you have stoner stigma and the teachings young moments and all that stuff, which is which is a part of it. You know, 45:03 they said reefer madness, reefer madness. That's what I remember. It's 45:06 funny because our company we take reframe reefer madness, and we use that as our advertising campaign. So we've kind of flipped it where Yeah, it's good. It's bad, dangerous, stay away. It's cannabis, it's going to ruin your life like, no, it's it's education and understanding the the incredible benefits of the plan depending on who the user is. And if he's properly educated can find it so you can find something that may and our battles never been with the spirits and beer industry. At least on my side, our battles 100% been on the prescription drug side. So, you know, for us, it's just ending the ending the stigma, where I can call my homies at any of these whiskey companies and saying, hey, let's do an incredible collab together. Let's bring in some artists, let's do some art. Let's Fred, you know, I'll bring some Fred. Fred comes in, he does a whiskey tasting and, and I can bring a cannabis expert, and we do a canvas tasting and collide them. That's the ultimate goal is where these worlds can come collide for me. Because Because the whiskey culture, especially in my world, the whiskey culture, and the cannabis culture kind of coexist together at all times, just like beer. And I think there's ways of us helping each other grow through education. But our big problem is stigma. And people thinking that this is you know, the old This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs, commercial. Any questions? Well, I Fred's point, smoked weed. 12, for the first time did not become a stoner went to college, played college football have been on my own since I was 18. And it's funny, I'm from Colorado, so I'm a little different. So move from Colorado to California. So I'm a little bit fortunate in that. And and, and so it's never fully affected me, it's only helped me control things without me taking a pill. 46:41 Yeah, I will say, I was just at a conference in Washington, two weeks ago, where at least the short term political goal for the marijuana industry seems to be to get expensive, be able to deduct this expenses. You know, that's, that's a big concern right now. Also, they said, they would really like to get off of marijuana off of schedule one. So that you can make it easy to do research and then it also financially, they can start using the banking system. So they do have a number of short term political goals. 47:23 But it goes back to education. And then before before these politicians that are kind of driving the ship here, they've got to be educated on the benefits or the we've got to create change. And that's that's where our big Hancock has always been with prescription drug lobbyists. And then that and before then the paper industry and the logging industry because with have been legal, you're going to see a big change in that world very quickly. 47:47 What do you mean by the way, there's with me in legal how, what what sort of big changes do you think? 47:52 Well, hemp is a very, very strong structure, very similar to what you would get with wood and paper. But it grows from faster, it's it's cheaper to make it's it's, it's, it doesn't take up the same amount of land. It there's a lot of different usages for it as well. So there's, it doesn't make stronger rope can make your paper can it can kind of replace other things that have been big industries in this country for a while that aren't necessarily great for the environment at the same time have provides an alternative that 48:26 and by the way, there are hemp Bourbons that will be hitting the market soon and be rolling has took the hemp seed and added to a mash bill. And they are resting in their warehouses right now. 48:41 But the big thing you got to understand is what I was talking about infusion hemp and cannabis are not the same thing. They're been declassified. They're separate. That's where the Farm Bill allowed the hemp to come in. David, I think you're about to say something. 48:54 No, I was just gonna say the hemp does not have the THC in it. Yeah, there's no psychoactive properties. So 49:01 it's not it's not necessarily CBD either. So it's coming from that cannabis plant. So it's, it's just a different, it's just different. It's it and that's where they separated allowed it to be used in all 50 states now. 49:14 So for it, you know, I kinda want to get your take on this, you know, we've got we've got David's take that it's not going to have any sort of effects and in the broader market, I know that you are well connected to other distilleries and people that have, you know, that their financial stake is in is in their their spirits? Have you have you talked to any of them not without naming names or anything like that, where where they could potentially see that this is a future risk for their, their products. 49:43 Yes, I know, one in particular, who is not a distilled spirits council member who is adamantly opposed to only legalization of marijuana based solely on the fact of what he believes it will do to spirits. And this is a this is a, you know, a company that will put up a big fight, when that when the time comes, and we'll do everything it can to block people from infusing marijuana and alcohol, you know, because this is a, I would say, a very conservative thinking company that still still looks at the 1930s, you know, saying like, you know, they still try to be they try to do things that that would, you know, that could fly even under in the blue states, you know, so they're overly conservative and fear that, you know, there may be regulation put upon them. And, and the fact is, is kind of a lot of what David said, there's still still more studies to be done and everything I hear Klay advocating for are things that he would not necessarily I don't I don't think anybody what once once the marijuana is in someone's head, and once the spirit of someone's hand, you know, that then becomes an individual responsibility. I think what you're going to see the spirits community do is I think you will see a rift between the combination of those two things in a bottle, and that is that the marijuana and fleet fused bourbon, the marijuana flavored vodkas and stuff, I think that's where you will see more of the fight go on within the spirits industry. 51:28 And and I guess the question for you is, is it really a question of the spirit in general and the category classification, or is it a pocket book? Because as as Joe goes to the store to figure out what he wants to do this Friday night, if you got a bottle of bourbon or you got it out, or an eighth of we what's what's what's the choice? Is that what they're really worried about? 51:51 I that's a good question, David, go ahead. You know, 51:54 I will say oftentimes, when you look at survey data, indicates that you know, yes, these cannabis and alcohol are very much substitutes. However, when we've done focus groups, and you ask people who are marijuana users about their use of alcohol, oftentimes they're confused by the question because I say well, you know, cannabis marijuana's marijuana and alcohol is alcohol and we use them on different occasions Now obviously, there's always going to be some overlap you know, without a doubt, but I think perhaps the instances of overlap and therefore the substitute ability are a little bit overblown and you know, they're just not what people actually thought that they were 52:42 so he said occasion so like a three year olds birthday party is that now the 52:47 ripping Jays where you should be using either one of them but yeah 52:52 he's like I don't know about that 52:55 blows my mind because this is the category it's the data is out there this is this is good gonna be federally legal at some point, like more of the majority of the states in the union right now or at least in a medicinal state right now. This is going to happen if I was an alcohol company just like constellations doing I'd be learning everything I would about it so I can be be the go to of these cannabis consumers. You know, if there was a brand out there that said, Hey, Perrier whiskey with us and it competed with my my go to, I would give it a serious consideration because they're, they're connecting with me on a personal level now. And to me, that's how you can connect to a consumer. 53:32 Yeah, absolutely. With that, I think we'll we'll start wrapping up and Fred, unless you had any other questions that you kind of want to 53:38 tell her I wanna I wanted, I want to delve into this pairing a little bit more, because I think for a lot of people who regularly pair their stakes with bourbon, they're having a hard time figuring out how the hell do you pair smoking some pairing smoking weed, with? With whiskey? Because these are you smoke a cigar? Well, that's you said a cigar has flavor on the cigar has a flavor on the leaf. Are you suggesting that you guys have flavor on on that 54:07 the plant is a flavor. So every you know, we all have unique flavors, you have the strains, right? So the big thing in cannabis right now is we're trying to get away from the whole, if you don't know it into coast TV, I mean, you know, into cause more of the relaxation kind of put you to sleep strain. And this is more of an upbeat, creative, keep up thought process control. And then you have these hybrid strangers or more body highs and they can, you know, lean one way or the other. But there's flavor profiles in these cannabis strains. So there's, you know, there's just like when you taste bourbon Fred, you get tense of cinnamon or chocolates or something like that, you know, will get fruity flavors will get taste of orange and citrus and lemons and, and blueberries. And because the process of the cloning of these things now is there's flavoring starting to go on organically through other things, especially if you go to the extraction market. And we're pulling flavors out of the plant that organically in the plant that make it taste like juicy fruit. Now I know that's a problem with, you know, attaching yourself to a younger audience. But from me being a gum consumer, the only flavor I can consider it it's a tropical fruit flavor. But those are all natural flavors being pulled out through science. So yeah, there is ways of pairing so one of the reasons we chose our blackjack strain for heavy grasses, one of our first strains is that it has a spicier taste to it, which like I mentioned earlier, goes really well with with a bourbon on the you know, a bourbon neat, and that was the whole way of I could have a conversation with that. There's all their ways of flavor Rolling Papers all day. Full of pesticides too. If you really go through it I mean backwoods gets hit for pesticide problems. In the Rolling Papers. You know, Cannabis, the wonderful thing about cannabis is we're the most controlled industry from from from an agricultural standpoint. So there's so many rounds of testing going in and making sure it's clean. From the moment it leaves are the wherever it's been growing at to the moment consumers hand. 56:00 So there's not a barrel broker market for weed at this point is I trying to say there's there's 56:07 everyone's looking for the right strains. I mean, this is another obviously a, someone should write a book on this and there might be one out, but there's these legacy strains, legacy seeds that people are always looking for. And every strain of cannabis that's out right now kind of derived from 30. I think it's 13 or 14 original plants. So if you can find one of those plants is called Durbin, Durban poison. I think it's what it's called. But, you know, everyone's on the hunt for those because those are like legacy strains. So that's our Pappy, I guess. 56:34 Interesting. So Fred, you know, what this means is that you've just got more research to do to figure out if you can start doing these pairings. And you gotta be, you gotta be ahead of it. So when Kentucky gets the green light, you're the first one to capitalize on it. 56:46 Yeah, I knew you'd say that. 56:51 It's all it's all research and development. Yeah. But yeah, with that, gentlemen, I want to say thank you, again, for joining the show today. This was a fun conversation, because like I said, we're hitting on all the sins today. And and being able to figure out what what the impact of really what this means, especially to the bourbon consumers out there. And I think not even that maybe the consumers, maybe it's the audience that are the distributors and the distillers out there, and they can start taking this is a fresh nugget of information on how do they either adapt to the business, or do they capitalize on the business one of the other. So with that Clay I want you to give an opportunity just to let people know where they can find you either on social media or how to get in contact with you or anything like that. 57:35 Yeah, I mean, heavy grass, we're on Instagram, I think the best thing to do is go to our website, the heavy grass calm. That is our official website, you must be 21 and up to enter. So please make sure you're only 21 up I just liked I think the people listens. podcasts are required. But you can go there and find everything you can about get heavy grass, our lifestyle is a different websites get heavy.com that's where you can really get into the music and everything else we have going on. And then personally, you can always follow me on Instagram. That's where I'm most active at Clay Busch spelled like the beer, not the president. And, and that's how you can keep up with everything. I'm pretty active for everything we do. On my social. So where can is your is your product available in California, Colorado? Where is it available? Right now we're only in Los Angeles for a California Southern California, we're going to be here, you if you really want to get to know us, you got to come out to us. And you can come to one of our stores in Los Angeles, if you come out to take you to a show is fantastic whiskey bar called seven grand down here. We do our own pairings, and we have a good time. 58:41 Fantastic. We'll put that on the TripAdvisor reviews. 58:44 And David, go ahead if there's any way that people either want to get in contact with you or just learn more about the distilled spirits Council. 58:51 Sure you can find us at our website. It's the distilled spirits council.org. And there's information on there as to how to contact us and you know, just send a email to our public affairs department. And they'll be happy to get in touch with me. 59:05 Thank you everybody for joining in that we had a few people here on the chat giving some some information. We had some people that were joining us for the live. That's one of the great aspects of joining our Patreon communities that you can get early access to all these podcasts and everything else that we're doing before them. But make sure you also following us on social at Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at bourbon pursuit as well as also follow Fred Minnick on all those channels. And I'll let Fred plug everything because his list is never ending about everything that he's doing. 59:35 He's the busiest man I've ever met, by the way. 59:39 I don't know about that. Listen, I've worked with these festival promoters and they I don't know how they sleep because they always are putting out fires. So I would not compare what I do least bit to anybody who promotes some music festival. But you can find me on amazon prime. My show is bourbon up. I've got a YouTube series now called the curation desk, goes to subscribe to my magazine bourbon plus, find me on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Just search my name. Fred Minnick. 1:00:06 Awesome. And what that will see everybody next week.

This is the second episode of the Mind Your Noodles podcast. In this episode our guest is investment banker, keynote speaker and author of Pitch Anything, Oren Klaff. We discuss how to use neuroscience when interacting with others, the importance of narrative and emotion in communications and ways to build trust. Show Notes [00:00:05] Mind Your Noodles Podcast [00:00:20] Episode Two - Oren Klaff [00:01:01] Transparency - I'm a Student of Oren's Work [00:01:53] Pitchanything.com [00:02:42] New Book Coming - Flip the Script [00:06:10] Time Passes Differently for Speaker and Audience [00:07:56] How Do You Get Information Out of Your Brain and Over to Someone Else? [00:08:25] Oren Breaks Down the Brain [00:09:03] The Crocodile Brain [00:10:54] Mid-Brain  Function - Social [00:11:32] The Neo-Cortex Role [00:13:00] Does this Thinking Apply to the Masses? [00:15:00] Adjustments When Addressing the Audience [00:15:20] Emotional Needs of the Audience [00:16:39] Collateral Damage and Narrative [00:17:35] Narrative Arc [00:18:50] The Pre-wired Brain [00:20:08] Programmed Narratives [00:21:15] Conflict and Trust [00:22:12] Trust as Too High a Bar at the Beginning - and What to Do to Get There [00:26:32] Conflict Raises the Stake [00:28:53] Conflict = Stakes [00:29:55] The Big Idea and it's Role [00:31:45] Role of the Big Idea [00:36:19] Big Idea Applies to All - Even the Furniture Business [00:40:00] You are Valuable - Use It or Make It [00:43:51] How Might We Engage Employees [00:47:13] Closing Thoughts     Transcript Tripp: [00:00:05] Welcome to the Mind Your Noodles podcasts take care of the brains that take care of you using neuroscience research and methods for a brain friendly organization and healthy you.   Tripp: [00:00:20] In the second episode of Mind Your Noodles My guest is Oren Klaff. Investment banker, keynote speaker and author of Pitch Anything. We discuss how to use neuroscience when interacting with others, the importance of narrative and emotion in communication and ways to get trust quickly.   Tripp: [00:00:46] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt host of The Mind Your Noodles podcast.   Tripp: [00:00:51] My guest today is investment banker speaker and author Oren Klaff. Welcome Oren.   Oren Klaff: [00:00:57] Hey thanks. TRIPP I appreciate it. Good to connect with you. Glad we could get on the same schedule.   Tripp: [00:01:01] Very good. Full disclosure to my audience I am a huge fan of what Oren does and I'm also a student of his Pitch Mastery online class that that he has and workshops and call ins and also Oren you probably won't meet with us but you are the inspiration actually for this podcast. So no pressure.   Oren Klaff: [00:01:25] Great. And I can't wait to get the checks.   Tripp: [00:01:28] There you go. And one of the things I do a little bit differently especially for folks like you is instead of talking about all your stuff that you do at the end. Kind of like to just where people can go so they can get back right to the beginning of the podcast episode and just know kind of a little bit about. So I knew they'd go to like pitchanything.com I would assume if they're going to learn about you.   Oren Klaff: [00:01:53] If you want to get started here you go to pitchanything.com. Putting your name and we will flood you with really information on that will transform the way you get in front of people the way you talk to people in the way that you close deals. That's what you care about. That's the right place to be pitchanything.com   Tripp: [00:02:11] Okay. And do you want to say a couple words because I know you're kind of doing preorders for your new book Flip the Script. I'm sure we'll talk about as we get into it. But.   Oren Klaff: [00:02:22] So I wrote a book. Second Book because they said you have to write a book. Another one. Your first book is like everyone on Earth bought it. There's no one else to sell it to. I didn't read the book so I wrote another book. I said Yeah I'll do it in a year. and then two years later I finished it because apparently I put everything I knew in the first row.   Oren Klaff: [00:02:42] But the book the new book is Flip the Script. It is. I love it like I'm reading it myself. Oh my God this is so good. I should write this down. Wait a second. I just wrote this. It's like this infinite loop of the Flip the Script is full of scripts of how to make somebody chase you instead of you chasing them out to put your ideas. In the mind of somebody else so they think it's their idea. It is it. It's completely next level. There's nothing like it in sales. It's just revised what sales is about. So Flip the Script is the new book. It's out of control. Now that I've said that you can't get it.   Tripp: [00:03:21] Well you can preorder it though.   Oren Klaff: [00:03:25] You can preorder it. That's OK. Because.   Tripp: [00:03:27] I see it here on Amazon right now.   Oren Klaff: [00:03:30] I'm looking at it and I'm going to get two hundred galleys. So you know if you're in the media a galley is you know the copy that the editors send you that isn't really a copy. It's sort of the secret copy print on cardboard and toilet paper. But if you want that copy I have 200 of them.   Tripp: [00:03:48] Oh OK. OK. All right. So. So where would they contact you to get that.   Oren Klaff: [00:03:52] E-mail you if you want that copy. Go to Tripp's house.   Tripp: [00:03:55] OK.   Oren Klaff: [00:03:56] Talk to his dog.   Tripp: [00:03:59] My dog will kill them. They don't want to do that. All right.   Tripp: [00:04:02] So where I'd like to start Oren is because you were the inspiration for my my podcast that I'm putting together here. I do a couple of other podcasts I'd do one for the Deming Institute. We have about 45-50000 listeners every every month.   Tripp: [00:04:18] And also do one with a gentleman by the name of Doug Hall does innovation types of things. But the the thing that struck me you know I love sales from way back. So you know did the Carnegie stuff I did the Ziglar and I did Tracey and I did the Sandler sales Institute and then on a fluke I I ran into a copy of Pitch Anything actually from another book that was actually meh not very good. But but but in their bibliography your book was mentioned in there and as I started to read it. The thing that that really stood out. I know this is part of your your pitch process and I would certainly want to talk about that is this whole concept of people whether it's neuroscience or brain science or ever you want to say it it's this concept of people are not communicating between a sales situation or a pitch situation because they're on really two different planes in the brain level.   Tripp: [00:05:24] And so I kind of like to start there and I know I've listened to some of your interviews that you've done over the past year on the Life of Charm I think it was one of them and and some other ones that you've done with like the Project Management Institute.   Tripp: [00:05:42] Yeah. And so there's going to be some some it's going to be boring for you. But for the audience I think level setting kind of that component and especially because it really fits in well with the purpose of this podcast kind of walk us through how you. First of all arrive there and then kind of the basics associated with the crocodile brain and the mid brain and all that.   Oren Klaff: [00:06:10] Yeah. So I think you know one way you can get there they've never talked about but we'll do some fresh stuff here. If you think about how differently time passes in different situations so if you're a speaker presenter write to an audience and nearly everybody listening here you know whether it was in grade school, high school, college or in a professional you know sits up and had to present something longer than five minutes when you pass five minutes time begins to pass differently for the speaker and the audience.   Oren Klaff: [00:06:45] You the speaker. Are talking you're all the sound that you get warmed up. Think about five six seven minutes to get warmed up. You got the sound of my voice is pretty good right.   Oren Klaff: [00:06:55] And now you're sort of getting going in your juices are flowing and you feel warmed up and now you're ready to say the things you have to say in explaining the features and the benefits and the ideas that you have and the business of it. And. At eight nine 10 12 minutes your just getting going and the audience is just about cooked right. And so now as you get into when this happens to me you know I a half an hour into a speech. I feel like wow I could do this for three or four hours and the audience is thinking I want you to do this for another minute maybe. OK. So so things happen differently. Experiences that are in the same room happen very differently to different people especially when you're you're teaching or giving information or selling. So. So there's different parts of the mind that are engaged when you're the seller and you're the buyer. And then we follow that through and we sort of think of it like this that where. Do you. What part of the brain do you disgorge information from.   Oren Klaff: [00:07:56] How do you get information out of your brain over to someone else. And what part of the brain do they receive then when you start to look at that from a neuro standpoint you and you ask. Cognitive psychologists. You know what's happening in the brain by the way if you never hire cognitive psychologists to help you out with your relationship. Right. You don't give a fuck about relationships.   Oren Klaff: [00:08:18] They care about your feelings they care about how information moves in and out of the brain and up and down and how you react to things and why.   Oren Klaff: [00:08:25] But if you think about where you receive information into the human mind well it's received as you alluded to do something. Call we call the crocodile brain. And it's the most ancient part of the brain the least sophisticated the most unable to handle nuance, detail, emotion. Right. It really just trims things down to the absolute basics.   Oren Klaff: [00:08:50] Right now the part of the brain that I'm using that you're reading now listen to the part of bringing you you used to get to work and get a buy a laptop and get a job and think that of course is the neocortex smart thinking linguistic capable math problem solving.   Oren Klaff: [00:09:03] Also relatively emotionless but but that part of the brain thinks about complex ideas and talks about them uses the language communicates them and it's sending all this information over to the other person who's just receiving that information through their crocodile brain. We call that because it acts like a crocodile. Huh. What is this. Something is moving. Noise is coming from it. I gotta deal with it because anything that's moving that creates noise in an animatronic way right. That isn't a rock a tree or an insect. Anything is moving and making noise I gotta pay attention to and decide how to process it. And so the other person is. You're coming up with all your great ideas and that person thinking you know as I wrote is it's just something I should eat. There's something I should mate with. Is this a danger. Should I kill it. There's sort of some of the base angry hungry and horny. Right. That's so nature. That part of the brain is trying to process the thing you're saying. So unless you give that part of the brain the information it needs at the beginning to get it calm down and end to allow it to move information up higher into the brain. You never get past. Really the initial. Interest you don't get the attention because you go hey this is not something I should eat. There's not something I should mate with. This isn't something I should kill am I. I'll just ignore it and worry about other problems. So. So that part of the brain is very concerned about survival and self interest and if you don't placate it give it the information it need. Truncate you know your story so it calms down and is willing to pass information up to the higher order of the brain. You can't get anywhere. And that's why you go there eyes roll back in the head. We never got their attention you know and all these things. So. So you got.   Oren Klaff: [00:10:54] So that's a first part of the brain its gotta deal with then it moves up to the mid brain and the mid brain doesn't care about ROI IOR and you know these things that you know you've heard me talk about before you know with the benefits of the SAS software or how the insurance is going to know save you money or this car's better than that I didn't care about and sort of cares about social situations.   Oren Klaff: [00:11:15] So until it's safe. And it sounds and there's some things to be intrigued by by the crocodile brain. And then there is a sense of social order that you're a high status individual that can provide some valuable information.   Oren Klaff: [00:11:32] The neocortex won't engage so I really just start talking to neocortex with the details data story and the neocortex is not easy to access. So that's how I think about human-human communication. You got to give him the right information for the part of the brain that is actually paying attention. At that point in time you got it. If I could just simplify this by a million times when you go to merge on the freeway right.   Oren Klaff: [00:12:00] They give you an on ramp so you can build up speed to get up to you know by the time you get a freeway you're doing seventy five miles an hour. If you've ever been in a situation where somebody build a shitty road system somewhere in New Jersey or Pennsylvania.   Tripp: [00:12:13] The jug handles. Yeah.   Oren Klaff: [00:12:16] Yeah yeah what you sort of take aRight there's this right turn onto a five lane road where people are going 80 miles an hour and you go Damn how do I get up to that speed from a dead stop. Right. That's what most people are facing. How do we take a right turn onto this freeway and get up to speed without getting murdered. And most people's presentations get murdered on by by trying to do that incorrectly. You need to have an on ramp.   Tripp: [00:12:45] Okay. And so one of the things as far as this particular podcast you know my whole aim is applying neuroscience to organizations kind of how do I build a better system.   Tripp: [00:13:00] In that particular company now ours obviously you know a sales component to it. There's a pitch component to it when you're reaching out to even the masses. These things hold true right.   Oren Klaff: [00:13:13] When you're sending this devout to the masses it's even more true and I'll give you an example if you've ever gone to see a can a comedian right in a club.   Tripp: [00:13:22] Yes.   Oren Klaff: [00:13:24] They don't actually have to be that funny right cause you face to face people are having a couple of drinks you want them to do well you don't want them to fail you know the joke. If you're watching that same comedian on TV they have to be you know three 4 times funnier the jokes have to be amazing the content has to be you know that's why that's why people you know when they do these HBO comedy specials you know they can practice for a year to do that because when you're watching it on TV in an in-person way that the jokes have to be incredibly on point and funny versus being there in a club that you know just everyone's having a good time and and almost anything is funny. The comedians on stage you know these high status with your friends you want to have a good time. So it's the same thing right. When you go into the masses you're not there.   Oren Klaff: [00:14:14] To affect them in a emotional way. One to one or one to a few. And so the structure of the information has to be incredibly well organized and precise and feed these parts and respect neuroscience and feed these parts of the brain in the way that the brain is willing to accept information right. We're not talking about feelings or emotions or or wants and desires.   Oren Klaff: [00:14:40] We're talking about how the brain is actually willing to accept information from you. Another human in what order they need the information and what amount of detail at what speed and what level of emotional color and depth those things have to be pre-programmed. If you want to meet the masses.   Tripp: [00:15:00] Okay. And I know you do a lot of public speaking and keynotes and things of that sort. Is there are there adjustments that you're making as you're doing a keynote versus doing a a pitch for capital. Or is it still pretty much the same blueprint. How do you approach that.   Oren Klaff: [00:15:20] Yeah my sense of it is that. It. If you're making midstream adjustments something is going wrong right. Because what you're doing is you're tuning yourself to the emotional needs of the audience at that moment. OK then they're not.   Oren Klaff: [00:15:43] Now you're on this slippery slope or going down to the circling the drain because their emotional needs will change. You know in a few minutes from now. Now you need to feed those emotional needs to keep them happy. The emotional needs of the audience aren't the same as their information needs so in my experience it is incredibly important not to have every word written but you've got to have the structure of a your narrative laid out. I mean think about a movie right halfway through the movie. They know all the actors tired well let's give them some easier lines and you know fuck it let's just having fall in love now instead of 20 minutes from now because the actors are tired right. So. So in no way do and those scripts go through infinite rewrites until the story is right and then you deliver the story. And yes do the actors have some variant variants you know during the turn the screenplay.   Oren Klaff: [00:16:39] I give a perfect example. Good friend of mine wrote a movie called Collateral Damage starring starring Arnold Schwarzenegger and this guy is a brilliant writer. You know he was a partner at Goldman Sachs and a very good friend of mine an excellent writer. You just just Mensa genius level guy.   Oren Klaff: [00:16:55] Love him David and I said you know the collateral damage not the greatest movie the plot. No no no no. The script is amazing. Right. Best script ever. The problem is Arnold Schwarzenegger goes I would not say my lines in this way. You know when he changes the lines change the lines and changing the narrative really affects the grand scheme so whenever we see somebody changing on the fly there tend to be feeding reacting to the emotional needs of the audience in that moment. And that usually leads to circling the drain.   Tripp: [00:17:35] Okay. And so you know it's interesting it's some of the people that I have lined up to talk to are on what you call the the narrative arc I believe is the words that you use. I just interviewed a gentleman by the name of Dr. Paul Zak and I know if no Paul at all but he does the dramatic arc and he wrote a book a book called The Trust Factor and where you do neuro finance. Zach does neuro economics which is basically measuring brain activity while people make decisions and one of the things that they found apparently is this in this whole narrative component that you guys talk about is that only are two areas of the brain are activated when you're talking about facts and figures and details and things of that sort and seven parts of the brain are activated when you're doing a narrative of some sort. And so how are you using that in your pitch in your whether it's a pitch to you know again for capital or whether you're pitching to a group of of you know employees in a company about the direction that the organization is going to go.   Oren Klaff: [00:18:50] Yeah. So I wrote about this a lot in my new book and I think you know I certainly had that same layer of thinking but I simplified it in this. That there are these pre wired pathways through the brain that are just acceptable narratives that people you know. Then there's you know seven or eight of them that that you know when they're getting that narrative all the parts of the brain are paying attention and somebody is riveted. Right. So man against man right you wants to snap somebodies attention you go. John and Mark are outside fighting over Susan. Boom. Everybody in the office drops what they're doing. Run to the fire exit to watch this parking lot incident you want to get so much attention you say two people are fighting. That is a pre wired part of the brain that has to pay attention to conflict. Right. And so we pay. We have to pay attention to movement right. Every single book on script writing or story writing or ply writing should drop people into rapidly unfolding action. Do not start. It was a dark and stormy night.   Oren Klaff: [00:20:08] Ok. You have a job even or under so. So man against nature man against himself man against man. Right. Ah ah are these ancient narratives that are pre-programmed the mind that you know people accept and follow and will pay attention to. So. So my my sense is in order to fully engage the brain it is not to find what engages the neocortex what engages the amygdala what engages the you know the mid brain what gauges the left temporal lobe. Trying in some complicated format. Get all of those fired up. Instead I say what. Pathways. Are available in the mind of this buyer that I can just feed into. What are they looking for. In what order and in what amount of detail. And then I just follow those pathways instead of trying to do something new and creative.   Tripp: [00:21:15] And I've heard you talk about this on numerous occasions as well as in your book. As far as conflict and things moving away and things moving. Are you manufacturing conflict. And if so. I know you also kind of go into this trust factor where you can't get to trust especially when you're doing a pitch real real quickly. Obviously if you're dealing with some employees that are out there a large group of employees you might have more time because they're employees but but as far as the conflict and getting to the autonomy associated with that can you can you kind of help me with the and help the audience too with the how you deal with bringing up conflict. How how are you gonna get that. You know Sally and Joe are out fighting in the parking lot type of type of situation.   Oren Klaff: [00:22:12] So. So a couple of things I think I'm less concerned about trust right. Because trust takes time to build and trust comes at the trust is not something you build upfront. It comes towards the end. Once you've done everything else correctly. Right. So I think it's a really high bar to try and build trust right. I think what is easier to accomplish is to build expertise and to build status and to provide information in the way that somebody can is interested. Continues to be intrigued and provides insight to move them past the information age when you can help somebody understand their business better than they currently know it. You've provided them insight when you establish your self as an expert.   Oren Klaff: [00:23:11] Then you've provided them the confidence to spend time with you. And believe in you when you've provided them that the enough sense that you're not going to beg for their business you're not going to chase them. Right. That you have got the status as a peer. Then all those things lead to trust. Right. So again I just want to put trust in its proper place and it is very hard to say as a marker hey we're going to try and develop trust. Trust comes automatically if you do everything else.   Tripp: [00:23:45] Okay. So. So. So what you're saying is there's kind of an on ramp to trust if you will. There are certain things that you need to have in place in order to build that. And certainly cycles of time that you talked about one of your friends in an interview recently you know that the trust has been developed over a longer period of time when you're trying to say if you're a new CEO walking into an organization you aren't going to have trust at the very beginning. But doing these other things you know the fact he has status he's been named the CEO of the company. You should be an expert in something you know before he even became CEO. But developing that intrigue and insight then would kind of be the the on ramp to getting to that trust component. Do I have that right?   Oren Klaff: [00:24:37] Yeah. So I think all those things are a proxy for trust or a replacement for trust. So what happened is somebody come to you and says hey listen trust me right. This is the best solution. This is the best water heater for your house that there is right there. That is sort of pressing to "do not trust me" Button. Right. When you ask for trust or go after it initially it has the exact opposite effect.   Oren Klaff: [00:25:04] Right. So what can we replace trust with that has the same impact expertise status insight. Social proof. The the just quality of presentation. Right. What I try and you may have heard me say Well but what would I try and develop very early on instead of trust with somebody you go Oh crap. This is awesome I'm in the hands of an expert. This guy knows how to pitch I can relax. This is not stressful. I don't got to be on alert that you know this information is true I don't have to you know think about every statement this guy seems to know what he's doing. I'm going to relax. Listen to this pitch 15 20 minutes whatever it is I'm in the hands of a professional. For me I try to achieve that feeling in a buyer rather than hey you should trust me.   Tripp: [00:25:59] OK.   Oren Klaff: [00:26:00] And we can circle back around the conflict right. The job of conflict is really to manage attention. Right. People pay attention to human conflict. So. So there's no movies about rocks interacting with each other. Right. Nobody. But there's lots of movies with rocks in them. But they have to you know whatever the word is anthropomorphize them. Right. If I maybe put too few or too many syllables in the word.   Oren Klaff: [00:26:32] But you know they have to make inanimate objects animate in order to get kids or anybody to pay attention to it. OK. SpongeBob Square Pants or whatever. Right. So so everything has got to be put in human terms and we're only interested in humans. Interacting with each other in a way to solve a problem and that generally means conflict. Right. And so if you want to raise attention raise awareness raise the stakes. It always has got to lead with conflict. And then you can move on to. And so how would you do that right. I mean if you get on a conference call with me about a deal you know and be the CEO of 3M of Xerox of you know I don't care what it is you know I'll get on the call. And typically you know this always happened if the CEO of a large company they'll come three or four minutes late and I go Hey John you here for the 3 0 3 meeting you know writes Funny and boring we laughed at it I just doing it for so long and I'm sorry. So I got the CEO of a Fortune 500 company apologizing to me because I'm in conflict with him but in a fun. So. So it's not that you can't challenge him or accuse him or you're all that there's lots of wrong ways to do conflict right.   Oren Klaff: [00:27:48] But if it's if it's social and socially aware and fun but it makes the point you know makes the point you know sometimes they'll bring six or seven people to the call and we'll have two you know which is always a bad sign socially anyway and we'll say OK you know here we are and you know tribal council. Right and there's trouble of us here and only nine of us will advance the next phase or a boost in the three people to kick off this island call here in the next few minutes. And you know that's it's fun. But you know it's also true is like hey you brought too many people to the call and you know you're making them aware of it. So you've got to find your own forms of this. But if you want people to pay attention there's got to be some sense of conflict if you you know if you're uncomfortable with that it's just like when I go to speak in Texas. Yes conflicts. Right. Like you mean bring a gun great Crudup Hey man I'll bring it in. Go to that meeting right. And so. So that's what they think of.   Oren Klaff: [00:28:53] You know conflict in Texas when I go to Silicon Valley they're really uncomfortable with in Palo Alto. You know invariably some women will stand up and say you know this is and this feels very male centric. No you're just you're hearing my voice. Right. But but you know women can and should do this as well. And so I wouldn't feel comfortable but so. So a word you can replace conflict with IS stakes. Mm hmm. Is the stakes. That's good. It's an other way to do and say hey glad we could get together today. On this call notes introductory call. All right but there's something going to be decided and as much as you're evaluating us. I'm evaluating you.   Tripp: [00:29:41] And we're going to figure out A if our product and services are right for you. But we're also going to figure out on this call if I'd the interest in working for you and if you're right for us because we only work with the best.   Tripp: [00:29:55] Right now you're talking. You're lucky you've hit on several things associate with this one is your talking. And we haven't talked about it as the frame that you're coming in to a situation with or it's coming to you and then you kind of hit each of the pieces but just kind of bring it together and then I'd like to go back to frame is the narrative arc that you talk about. So you said the the thing that you talk about all the time is the big idea. You know a problem that something that's difficult to solve and then what our solution is. And so you've touch upon some components of the big idea. Can you kind of rather than me just kind of hitting around what the big idea is can you tell me how that fits into the broader narrative.   Oren Klaff: [00:30:44] When you start working with someone talking to someone get on a Skype meeting phone call you know sending out an email there minding their own business.   Oren Klaff: [00:30:54] Oh my god is my wife going to see this email from this woman I met at the conference. It's not really like that but if she's attractive and all the kids are graduating from grade school and you know we can send her private high school and you know I really want the promotion. I love the team I'm working with. And should we go on vacation here locally and grandma is sick but the kids got here before she dies. My diet is not going well. I can't believe I didn't get to the gym the last two days. I promised my trainer and is on and on and on. Right. And then you're like hey our SAS software can deliver three times more throughput you know on your Amazon S three server side compared to your current on prem systems and we do it at a you know per whatever. And those thoughts dreams are just incompatible.   Oren Klaff: [00:31:45] And so for me the big idea. Is about getting someone's internal dialogue. Whatever happened their last meeting wherever they were. It was going on for them over the last 50 minutes last hour the last day getting that thought string. Tamped down and tempered and getting your ideas stream introduced and sort of switching the amount of attention they're paying to their own thoughts from you know being internally and so focused to being focused on you. And for me there might be other ways to do it. So I know for example like you know the state police use a taser that gets people real focused away from what they were doing under what they want to you to focus on. And so other professions you do things in a different way. But for me I don't can't use Tasers in the conference rooms that I go to. So I used a big idea.   Tripp: [00:32:39] And that's your way of getting them to now.   Oren Klaff: [00:32:42] And yeah. And so the big idea. Right. And most people get this wrong. They hear me talk about the big idea and they think oh the big idea is our software can make you money. That's not a fucking idea. Right.   Oren Klaff: [00:32:53] That is about you. The big idea has nothing to do with you it's about them. And the greater world around all of you. Right. The big idea is all software has now moved to the cloud and is being rented. OK. And so if in fact you want to have a customer for software in today's world. Right. You need to you rent them the software everything's in the cloud. That's an idea right. We have software that's in the cloud that can make you money is a value proposition. There's a solution that come to way down the line. So ideas truly are ideas right. And so you know and typically as you know there to me there are a lot of things that are changing right.   Oren Klaff: [00:33:44] So fundamentally the the you know obviously politics we don't want to get into here because I just say the word politics and a divisive political discussion in the country and you know red versus blue and you know support of a Republican Party and sort of non Republican way. Yeah I was going to light up.   Tripp: [00:34:05] Right.   Oren Klaff: [00:34:06] Right. And pay attention because that is changing and those are those are important issues but you know what else is changing. I mean if you think about Samsung you know if you saw the release of this folding tablet thing right.   Tripp: [00:34:18] Oh yes.   Oren Klaff: [00:34:18] I mean I had you know in my company we might have 700 Apple devices. You know I mean maybe maybe 15 hundred I don't know. You know I've I've owned 60 iPhones and 20. You know i pads and 15 iMacs and you know just myself and I see that device and I'm like Oh man I'm I get a Samsung Android whatever that stuff is right so.   Oren Klaff: [00:34:41] So even you know technology is constantly changing the relationship with North Korea is confusing, the terrorists, with China. I mean everything's changing. You know all the time and so big ideas are around change.   Tripp: [00:34:55] You know it's interesting you know one of the things that that I really struggled with that that you helped me through coming up with with the big idea for for my consulting practice was you know I'm a long time follower of of a man by the name of W. Edwards Deming who you know went over to Japan and helped turn them around and do all that type of thing. But you know.   Oren Klaff: [00:35:18] Sure.   Tripp: [00:35:19] He died in the early 90s. But I mean and and I think the difficulty associated with his teachings it's more of a philosophy as opposed to a method per se. And one of the difficulties I have and I think it's important to kind of bring this out because I think people are gonna have a hard time going oh but I'm not in the investment banking business or not in this. But but what you do extrapolates a method for helping people even if they know you're talking about Samsung and all the new and exciting things associated with that. But I might be in an h vac business. You know what I mean. And and I. How do I you know get a big idea or make shots here or you know right.   Oren Klaff: [00:36:07] Yeah.   Tripp: [00:36:08] And I think it's an important thing right. Yeah.   Oren Klaff: [00:36:10] You have to take you know or even worse you're in the furniture business.   Tripp: [00:36:16] Yes. Yeah I.   Oren Klaff: [00:36:19] So if you're in the furniture business. You're fucked. That's we can't know.   Tripp: [00:36:26] If you're a furniture business skip this. No. Yeah.   Oren Klaff: [00:36:29] Okay listen on the phone for business. You know what I would tie that to without knowing too much about it is logistics right. Something about logistics. There's 18000 too few truck drivers in the United States right. And so what's hot and what's driving that. It's Amazon and these package delivery you order a toothbrush you know some dental floss and some throat lozenges. It comes in a box. You know the size of a small desk right. And so all these empty boxes moving everywhere back and forth to deliver a toothbrush is causing a huge Oh you know over demand on logistics. And so if you're in furniture logistics are are becoming a huge problem and you know a big cost of the you know of your final delivery product. And so that industry is changing a lot and it's tied directly to Amazon which everybody can relate to. So again I might say hey so you know if I'm a furniture company and I'm looking for example for an investor right or a partner I would say hey look today if you think about furniture the business has basically been the same for two hundred years you make the furniture you know you put it in a box you take a picture of it you put in a catalog it's shipped to the store.   Oren Klaff: [00:37:53] People browse the store. They they pick a model and they go to the warehouse and they deliver one to your house. Couple days later is basically how furniture has worked today. It's quite different because because of the difficulty with logistics there's there's 18000 truck drivers that need to be hired that aren't currently available and you cannot get the inventory to where the purchases are happening so the salespeople. Have to tell the buyer the furniture you're not going to get your delivery for three to six weeks. People want to finish that home tomorrow. So the salespeople. Are the key to revenue today in the furniture business. It never was that way that you had to hire you know for 50 60 70 thousand dollars base and get real salespeople used to be able to pay commission because the furniture sold itself. So I don't know. Right. A big idea in of your business. I know nothing about.   Tripp: [00:38:53] Yeah. No. And I think that's good I just want to point out especially to the audience that you know one of the things I found I find fascinating well know it took me six months to build up the courage to to to actually talk to you about my pitch.   Tripp: [00:39:07] But but as I listened to you talk to people in different businesses I mean everything from pharma of pharmaceuticals to health care to you know furniture you know that you have this mindset that that is associated with being able to come up with a big idea in whatever situation it is by kind of looking more broadly at the industry and what's going on or or trends of things that are happening within an industry. And I saw you more than once. Certainly probably 20 times where you pulled somebody out that hadn't thought in that particular you know with that particular mindset it's one of it's one of your redeeming qualities that you have associated with what you do is is there any hints that you might be able to give folks as how did they get that mindset.   Oren Klaff: [00:40:00] So for me then the number one thing to drive the mindset for all this stuff is you know you and you know I talked about it before it is. Internal understanding of our own value. Write that in the relationship. With a potential buyer investor partner whatever it is we don't have the product and the service or the company or the investment that's valuable. It's the relationship with us right. I know things about how to buy this product how to invest in this kind of company that will help you avoid losing your money or making them or making the wrong choice. I can help you if you go somewhere else. You're not going to get me you're gonna get some other very likely less connected less experienced less caring individual. So if your priority is to get a low price. Or some other value for yourself and you're willing to work with somebody who has less experience less value less caring than I do. You should go do that because I'm a unique person. I have experience and I'm only going to share that with people I'm connected with. So that has got to be your an internal set point until you feel that believe that and let somebody actually walk away that you could have sold. Otherwise because of that issue it'll be difficult to adopt the other mindsets that help you sell and clothes. So. So that's your entree point into this world is understanding your own importance to the deal not just the product or the service.   Tripp: [00:42:05] Ok. All right. I have two more questions. The first one is one of the things that when when I when I joined Pitch Mastery you had in there a bunch of articles under what you called Psychology in it. And this is one of the things that set me down the path of doing this podcast is there is something in there it was an acronym. It was called SCARF which is stands for Stand our status certainty autonomy relatedness fairness and it just because I respect your opinion so much. Well it's a good ticket a little bit out of your realm here but I know you have this kind of perspective that I am very curious about and that is when you look at organizations and the way that organizations are run today and you've heard all the numbers about you know to two thirds of people are not engaged in their work. Those types of things. What do you see as what needs to what needs to be happening within organizations in order to get people engaged and how you know from all the things you've learned about neuroscience all the things you learned about pitching you know those types of things. What would be your perspective on that. I know again I'm thinking a little bit out of your your comfort zone here but you are so you know you have a broad thinker.   Oren Klaff: [00:43:28] Yeah yeah. So when you say engage. Yeah just chased that down. Sure. And unpack that a bit.   Tripp: [00:43:36] Yeah. So peep peep. There was a Gallup survey in essence that was done publicly about five years ago. Now we're something like two thirds of all people are not engaged in their work.   Tripp: [00:43:51] They're checked out basically. Yeah. You know they're they're just you know I've got I need a pay check and you know I have obligations I'm there but I'm not innovating. I'm not excited about coming to work every day. Well what would be what's your perspective on all the stuff that you've learned about neuroscience everything you've learned about pitching. How do we move these people way. How do we in essence my business is designing organizations that are basically brain friendly if you will where people look forward to coming to work every day. What needs to change in these corporate cultures from your perspective that they need to be doing in order to do it. I think you've hit upon some of this. Bye bye by just talking about what you know coming up with an a narrative that in essence engages people you know making more money for the guys at the top is not always that exciting. So. Right. So so so what what what what's your view.   Oren Klaff: [00:44:46] I mean my view for an organization is is you know very much the same as yours. It's you know micro goals or Gamify. Right. So it's funny we ran the cabin this last weekend up in Big Bear and they had a Galaga machine right. The videogame Galaga.   Tripp: [00:45:04] Ok.   Oren Klaff: [00:45:06] And. The you know in essence your goal is to get on the leaderboard right so they've got the top 20 people and you only their initials. But that is a huge reward you know to play the game well get the points and get on the leaderboard right. And so for me engagement is about you know my organizations is these goals that are doable that are tangible. And I think a lot of organizations have that. But you know you move up the leaderboard you know for accomplishing something as you know as close to you know as close to the blueprint as possible. So that's my experience in the organizations we run is is you know hard to connect people to our goals which is to grow revenue you know sell the company make 20 million bucks distributed to three guys and buy another plane. You know people don't come into work to help you do that. They come into work to you know write a blog post put it up get the most amount of clicks on it you know log that and move up the leaderboard. So maybe over simplistic but you know I'm not a management you know expert as you are but that's what I feel. It drives our organization forward is these micro goals and the gamification or the moving up the leaderboard. I mean you look if you watch the show.   Oren Klaff: [00:46:31] Darn, the British car show or come to me as soon as we hang up right where they race cars on the track and if the celebrities in the car and then and then the celebrity gets on the leaderboard right to see what their time was and that's very exciting for them. And it's hard to get except you know celebrities excited about much.   Oren Klaff: [00:46:49] And so getting on the leaderboard to me for accomplishing something that is manageable but challenging I think is really drives organizations.   Tripp: [00:46:59] Ok. And then my last question is when I typically ask which is there anything that maybe we talked about that you'd like to provide more clarification on. Or is there any question that you wish I would've asked that that I didn't.   Oren Klaff: [00:47:13] Well yeah I think for me you know the clarification is if you really want to give a great pitch a great presentation captures people's attention have them listen. It's really about raising your status to one as a peer. And then so I think most of understand that. But then I think it's important to go further as being more than appear as an expert. So those to me are the goals raise the standards a peer and they go further. Be seen as an expert. Now somebody will listen to you for an hour.   Tripp: [00:47:50] Mm hmm. Look at that. That's good. So that's kind of you again you're on ramp. The trust that we get that we kind of talked about earlier to.   Oren Klaff: [00:47:59] Yeah absolutely. OK. So. So I think yeah all somebody has to do is do all of these things we've talked about here today and do'em by tomorrow morning and be way way ahead of the game.   Tripp: [00:48:12] Okay. All right. And just just for my audience as I said I. Full disclosure and transparency I am part of Oren's Pitch Mastery of a huge advocate of the program and not only that but as far as the personal time that Oren spends going through pitches and giving suggestions those types of things it's well worth the investment in joining the Pitch Mastery piece and think it's it's you know for what the value you get out of it it's it's of great value.   Oren Klaff: [00:48:48] So thank you Tripp. OK well great connecting with you today. You know again love to meet people over at pitchanything.com we're pretty accessible there and we'll take it from there. I can't wait for this to come out. I want to listen to it again. The I mean these these these topics are. You know as you know part of my experience but also we've research them heavily and even more so we've deployed them in thousands and thousands of business and those businesses come back and said that works. Right. And so that's why I'm talking about them here. because they really work.   Tripp: [00:49:19] Absolutely. All right. Thank you Oren.   Oren Klaff: [00:49:21] Thanks Tripp. I'll talk to you soon.   Tripp: [00:49:27] Thank you for being a listener. of the Mind Your Noodles podcast if you'd like to learn more or sign up for our newsletter or upcoming podcasts go to MindYourNoodles.com    

Zach and Ade celebrate Living Corporate's 1-year anniversary in this very special episode! They reflect on everything that's led up to this point, read a few user reviews, and so much more. Ade also shares her personal journey navigating the STEM field for the first time.Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, listen, it's a really--what's the word? A special episode, and I feel like there should be, like, some "Tony! Toni! Toné!" playing. Ade: Why though?Zach: It's our anniversary. Not you and I. Well, in certain ways, yeah. Really the anniversary--yeah, but the anniversary of the show, right? Like, we've crossed the 1-year mark as a podcast, as an organization. That's pretty cool, right? Ade: It's pretty dope. I think this is the longest-running creative project I've ever been involved with, which is saying something, so shout-out to us. Zach: Man, super agree. Definitely shout-out to us, and yes, it's definitely been--definitely the longest engagement--I keep on using all of these consultancy words, and it's funny because my boss at my job keeps on talking to me--shout-out Juliet. I see you. Keeps telling me not to use all these consultancy words, but see, what's hard for, like, me to articulate at work is that I genuinely like words, but I'm still kind of--you know, I don't want to say, you know, [Ur-ish?].Ade: I know--I know what you're getting at.Zach: You know what I'm saying, but at the same time though, right, I just like words, but they don't get the "ish" side of me at work because of--because of reasons, right? So it's tough, but anyway, yeah. This is the longest project that I've been a part--creative project that I've been a part of as well, and it's dope. Like, I think it's crazy because if you look, like, over this past year, like, you'll see, like--I think what should make both of us proud is, like, a year of consistent engagement though. Like, it's not like, "Oh, we did it," and then we stopped, and then we did it and we stopped. Like, it's been a year of consistency, you know what I'm saying? Ade: Which is really a shout-out to you, because goodness knows that consistency is something that I lack in spades, but yeah. Without you there would have been very little consistency on my part, because yikes.Zach: Nah, nah, nah.Ade: We'll get into that.Zach: Yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into that, but nah, actually, I'ma tell you, the crazy thing is that it was--what I was able to see in you and, like, the potential of this space that pushed me to be, like, really aggressive, right? And attentive and, like, not--and kind of unrelenting and neurotic in how we would, like--Ade: I don't know if that gives the right connotation or that has the right--Zach: No, it's conno--no, but I'm saying, like, there were times where I'd know that, like, I would get on your nerves. Like, I'd be like, "Ade, we gotta record. Ade, we gotta record. Let's go. Let's go," and, like, we're recording, like, multiple episodes at a time, and just me working, you know, just being, like, obsessive. Like, there's a certain level of that, right, that was involved in this, and I think when I talk to people who created something and are building something, like, there's a certain lev--like, a certain bit of it. Like, not to the point where it's toxic, but a certain level of just obsessive, like, it's all you're thinking about and doing for a certain season of your life, at least just to get it going. And I don't feel like it's like that now. I feel like we've kind of--like, we've found a certain pace and rhythm and sweet spot, but to get something off the ground takes a lot of effort.Ade: And I think for me that actually works for who I am as a person. I like immersion, and I've found that with anything, I have to live, breathe, swim, eat, everything consume a particular energy if that's what I need to focus on at that time, otherwise it's never gonna get done, and I'm also not the sort of person who gets annoyed by persistence, because it's something that I'm seeking out. It actually attracts me in a way to all of the things that I want, and that people who--in places where I find consistency and persistence and passion, those are the things that inspire me, those are the things that have brought me back to Living Corporate, even when I have not been in the most ideal situations. Because it's very easy to fall into the trap of complacence or just being like, "You know what? Everything is overwhelming, and I would like to just bury myself under the earth's crust and just, like, lay here for a second."Zach: That's real.Ade: But I've found that on the other side of that discomfort is everything that you're looking for, and you just have to keep pushing to get at it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and I feel the same way. And it's funny because, like, when I was talking to Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips--and this was, like, a while ago, but, like, he gave advice on the mic and off the mic, and we were talking about the fact that he said, "Man, you know, the biggest advice I can give you is just to keep going," he said, because so many people will get started with podcasting and, like, you know, they'll, like, do a couple shows and then they'll--you know, they'll get tired and be like, "Oh, I'll catch up next week. Oh, I'll catch up next week," and, like, you look up and they've been gone for, like, three months, or, like, people will, like, really put a lot of effort on the front end to, like, promote the podcast, and then you look up and it's, like--it's only been, like, two months and they're done. And I know for me, part of the reason so far--and again, it's only been a year, right? It's not like--we have time. We're still really babies, right? Like, we have tons--we have a long way to go. [laughs] But I know for me it's--like, the biggest fear kind of going into this was that, like, we would start, and we would, like, start off really big, and then we would fizzle out. So, like, I'm just really excited and thankful that we're here and, honestly, you and I, like, we're kindred spirits in a lot of different ways. Like, 'cause everybody doesn't like someone who's, like, persistent and, like will follow up and, like, hold you accountable and be like, "Hey, let's go." Right? Like, people don't like that, so the fact that, like, your vibe resonates with that is dope, because it's not common. So I'm really excited and thankful, like, for you to be here for real. Ade: Thank you. And just the last thought that I have on that is that I've found--and hopefully this helps somebody, but I have found that when I reach the valleys of my energy reserves and I'm completely tapped out, it helps having somebody like you, almost like a body double, because--I was gonna use a phrase.Zach: Nah, say it. [laughs]Ade: Ain't no punk in my blood. So I will be damned if anybody else, like, next to me is outworking me and we have the same level of commitment, so if you're willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, I'm willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, and if you are willing to cram yourself into a closet space to record, guess what? I too am willing to cram myself into a closet space to record, right? So there's something to be said for having a partner in your commitment who's willing to, like, go the distance with you, and you can sort of measure yourself and keep pace with that person. Not necessarily saying that you have to be down on yourself when you're not capable of being where they're at, but it's almost like having a guidepost as to where you need to be, and even when your heart isn't in it, you're able to, like, mirror somebody else so that at the very least you're going through the motions until your brain remembers what it feels like to win, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it does, it does, and it's so interesting, right, because--the last part you said, like, really hit me, 'cause, like you said, "when your heart isn't in it"--I think a lot of times, like, when we do things it's like, "Man, if I don't--if I don't really feel like doing it, then I'm not gonna do it," and it's like, "Man, there's a lot of stuff that I don't feel like doing that I just gotta do." So it's just really interesting, like, when you said, you know, "when your heart isn't in it." And it's--like, it's really important because a lot of times when you're doing something, especially if you're trying to do something and build something over time, you don't always feel like doing it, right? But, like, you just gotta do it. I mean, like, the easiest example is working out. I've been working crazy, so I haven't, and that's an excuse, but I haven't been getting up like I want to that I budgeted in my time to actually work out in the morning. Like, I get up. I have an alarm that goes off at 5:30 in the morning. That's for me to work out for 30 minutes every day. I have, like, a kettle bell. I'm, like, supposed to be doing this kettle bell routine, and I don't always feel like doing it, but, like, I'm not gonna get the results I want if I don't get up anyway, right? And it's like--Ade: A word.Zach: A word. [both laugh] A whole word, but it's true, and, like, you know--Ade: You are dragging me in my hunched-over position and this, like, [inaudible] potbelly I have going on right now.Zach: I'm dragging myself, nah. I mean--just shoot, listen. See, this is what happened. So I dropped weight, and, like--so now I'm able to look down--I dropped weight. Now I'm able to look down and see my belt buckle, so I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I can see myself." Like, "I'm good."Ade: Okay...Zach: Right? But it's like, "Nah." Like, there's more goals than just, like, not being able to see your shoes. Like, you should dream bigger than that. So there's another word for you. Some of y'all are just shoe-starers. You need to be bigger dreamers than that. Keep going. Keep driving.Ade: Drag me. Drag me.Zach: [laughs] Man. So while we were talking, right, I had, like, other things that, like, popped up in my head, all right? So tell me if this is, like, a cheesy joke. So first of all, like, we're not--this is not the topic of [inaudible]--Ade: It is.Zach: It is? Okay. Well, I'm gonna say it anyway. So you were talking about being in the closet to record. Ade: Yeah.Zach: Okay. How crazy would it have been had you been in the closet to record the episode--and I think you know what I'm about to say--Ade: I do. All you had to say was closet. No, please. Finish.Zach: Okay. How crazy--[both laugh] how crazy would it have been if you were in the closet to record the episode of being LGBT at work? That would have been nuts.Ade: You are childish, number one. Number two, that would have been brilliant actually, 'cause I think I was still in the apartment with that alarm that wouldn't quit.Zach: Yes, yes. I remember that spot.Ade: I just want to say that if y'all have been here for this long and you've heard me through the apartment with the alarm that wouldn't quit, the house in D.C. where you may have heard random gunshots in the neighborhood, the apartment in Tysons Corner with all of the, like, zooming cars or that one day I was in the golf room and that one guy had a vengeance against golf balls.Zach: He was knocking the mess out those balls.Ade: He was not--like, just straight up assaulting golf balls, and I was concerned. Shout-out to you. We here. We made it. Zach: We made it, dogg. We're here, and like, yeah. So anyway, I'm just thankful for you. I'm thankful for this. I'm thankful for us. I'm thankful for JJ. It's crazy 'cause we didn't even--like, we didn't let any air horns off. Hopefully JJ--hey, JJ. Listen, man. We're not gonna get sued. Just go ahead and put "Tony! Toni! Toné!" at the beginning of this. Maybe let it loop in the background actually. We ain't--Ade: You know, I actually think this is an occasion for celebratory gunshots. What do you think?Zach: Yes. Hey, JJ. Let them thangs go, bro. [he does]Ade: Brrap-brrap.Zach: [laughs] And some air horns. Put 'em in right here. [JJ does] Yes. Let 'em--yes, man. We out here, man. It's been a year. I want to talk about these stats real quick, man.Ade: Aye.Zach: In our first year we've had, like, 40,000 downloads, fam.Ade: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?Zach: That's not bad. Like, for a grassroots podcast with no--Ade: Okay, first of all, don't give me "that's not bad." That's dope as hell. I just--I think you should celebrate everyone. One of the things that I'm taking away from the situations that I've left behind is that celebratory Milly Rocks are an important part of your growth and your development as a person, because celebrating the little wins and recognizing all of your small accomplishments rolls into the part of you that persists, because failure's really demoralizing, and it sucks, but when you're able to, like, go back to past situations and identify all of the ways in which you won and didn't even realize, recognize, or celebrate those things, you're able to be like, "Well, damn. I really am that [person]." Zach: [laughs] That was super funny. Hey, Aaron. [that's me] So look. You know, we've talked about Aaron in our past, and again, listen, I've--I've called our allies Buckys and White Wolves, and the reason why, for those who don't know--Ade: And don't forget Winter Soldiers.Zach: Oh, and Winter Soldiers. And the reason why, if y'all know anything about Marvel, y'all know that the Winter Soldier's name was Bucky, okay, and that the Wakandans called Bucky "the White Wolf" in Wakandan. So Aaron--Ade: By the way, I heard that attempt at an accent. It, uh...Zach: I really--but this is the funny thing about that.Ade: You've been practicing, huh?Zach: No. So this is the thing--actually I started and I said, "Ooh, this is terrible," and I stopped in the middle, right? I did not--I did not complete it. But anyway, Aaron is a--he's a Winter Soldier, okay, and he's also the person--when you look at, like, all of our social media stuff--and we've talked about him before. We've joked that he's our diversity hire, and so Aaron, when you do the transcript for this and Ade said, "I'm that person," make sure that you put person in brackets so the real ones know what you really meant. [laughs, and done]Ade: All of that exposition...Zach: All of that exposition just for that one piece of direction.Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And it's funny 'cause he's gonna listen, and he's gonna be like, "Oh, yeah," and he's gonna do it. [they laugh, and that's exactly what happened] Oh, my goodness gracious. Ade: It's been a year of, like, deep sighs with you. Just, like, a--Zach: It's been a year of deep sighs, but look--but, like, you've gotten your [inaudible] out. [laughs]Ade: [utters the deepest sigh ever] A deep Negro spiritual sigh.Zach: A Negro spiritual sigh?Ade: Or it's an Issa Rae. [https://twitter.com/issarae/status/918611371805282305?lang=en]Zach: All the--all the Dad jokes and not nan a child around here. Pure Dad jokes.Ade: Look. Listen, it just means that you are well-prepared.Zach: I'm big ready. [both laugh] But nah. So, you know, I'm kind of at a loss of words because I'm just thinking about--I'm really thinking about what it took to make a year of content. Like, a year of content, and we've been working. Like, we've had full-time jobs, as consultants no less. Like, man, talk about that. Like, you have a whole new consulting job.Ade: 60-hour weeks. I counted it. I counted and averaged my working hours, and I just want to say that whoever said consulting was an easy gig... you are a liar.Zach: Oh, no. They lied. They lied. Well, this is the thing. It's easy I guess if you trash and [in a hushed whisper] if you're not black or brown. [laughs] Can we be honest?Ade: You know, I mean... all these facts. Like, I don't get to be mediocre at my job.Zach: I've never--yo, I'm gonna be honest with you. I've never--[laughs] No, no, no. So let me be clear. I am not saying that--well, I am saying that white privilege makes your job easier. I'm definitely saying that for you, yes. So if you're listening to this, I'm sorry. Be offended. It's cool. [both laugh] What I'm not saying is that, like, everybody who is white thinks the job is easy, 'cause I do know there are some majority people out here who are working very hard in consulting. Like, they work super hard, but every time I meet somebody and they say their job is easy, like, I've never met a black or brown person who says consulting is easy ever. Have you?Ade: Absolutely not.Zach: Like, never ever. Never.Ade: Ever.Zach: Eva eva, but the thing about it is--what I will say to that--you were talking about how many hours you work. So I don't want to say how many hours I work because there are people who, like, mentor me who listen to this podcast. If I told them how many hours I work, they would coach me. They'd be like, "Hey, Zach. You need to relax. You shouldn't be working that hard." So I'm not gonna say that, but I will--Ade: So maybe you need to relax and you shouldn't be working that hard.Zach: I mean, maybe so, but the point is, like, it's been a grind, right? Like, it's work. It's been work--like, we've been working. We've been working full-full-full-full-time. You don't really take a lot of vacation. I don't take a lot of vacation.Ade: Lol at a lot of vacation. Try any vacation.Zach: Lol at the word "vacation."Ade: Right? And obviously that's not to, like, compare struggles or anything like that.Zach: Definitely not.Ade: It's just, like, trying to give an accurate picture of, you know, just how exhausting this past year has been as well. Like, and as much as it's been a year of amazing triumphs and just wins that we didn't see coming, I'm working on a sleep deficit here, even on the weekends, and that's not something I'm trying to continue for very long, because I understand that sleep is a necessary and essential component of life, and I'm even not trying to encourage the culture that says that in order to, you know, be a good worker you have to show up to work on Mondays talking about how sleep-deprived you are. That's trash.Zach: That's toxic. That's super toxic.Ade: That is trash. Your brain needs sleep. But I also recognize that there are periods in your life where you have to take the L, whether it's the social L, sometimes the sleep L, to get to where you need to be in the long run, and so that's the time that we're investing now for later, and I'm sure all of my full-time workers/part-time hustlers understand what we're talking about.Zach: Straight up. I mean, this is the thing. I just don't know of any, like, entrepreneurs, full-time or part-time, who have made something pop, made the shake, without, like, really, really grinding, and I'm definitely not suggesting that you should be working yourself ragged all of the time, but there are gonna be some late nights. And, like, beyond you working late, I would say heart--more than that, you're gonna have to think a lot. Like, you should probably be more mentally exhausted than you are physically exhausted if you're really grinding at this entrepreneurship thing, because it just takes a lot of mental effort, like, to think through and strategize on how you're really gonna get stuff done.Ade: Right?Zach: Think through how you're gonna use your time, right? 'Cause you can't create more time, and you need sleep, 'cause it would be trash if we got on here talking about you don't need to go to sleep when we be talking about drinking water. Matter of fact, since we brought up drinking water, go ahead--I just hiccuped 'cause I need some water. [both laugh] Grab yourself the nearest cup of water, go to the tap--unless you are in...Ade: Washington, D.C.?Zach: Unless you're in Washington, D.C. or any of these other--if you're in a poor black or brown community. Because of the way that racism is set up and white supremacy is set up, your water probably tastes disgusting. So hopefully--Ade: Not only tastes disgusting, it probably has actual contaminants in it. So just don't do that. [inaudible]. Just drink some water.Zach: So don't--yeah, don't do that part, but maybe go get some bottled water if you can afford it, because the way that, again, white supremacy is set up and capitalism inherently built to destroy you and us. But, you know, if you can drink some clean water, go ahead and drink some right now. That's all I was trying to say. It got kind of dark, but I meant it.Ade: All of them caveats, and I just finished a bottle of water while you were speaking. I needed that.Zach: All of them caveats--all of them caveats. [laughs] But nah, for real though. You've got to take care--you've got to take care of yourself. So let's talk about this. Can we talk a little bit about, like, your journey with the STEM and what you've been learning?Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay.Ade: This is big trash. [both laugh] No, actually this is top two most challenging things I've ever had to do in my life, and this is not number two. I spent some time thinking through how I've been taught to think about myself as a learner, how I've been taught to think about myself in relation to the world around me. I was one of those kids who always picked up concepts quickly at incredibly high levels of abstraction. I could have--and I was very, very young doing this--I remember that when I was a kid, my great uncle, [inaudible], would sit me down in the morning and hand me the morning newspaper--and I'm, like, five years old during this--and we're just reading through the paper in the morning, and we'd say--and we'd talk about it, and he'd give me a little cup of coffee to drink with him. It's probably his fault I'm short, because everybody else in my family is tall, but we'd sit and talk through these incredibly abstract ideas. We're talking through military coups, we're talking through changes in, like, global structures. I'm being more complimentary of my ability to hold a conversation with a grown man who was in the military about these ideas, but I say that to say that I was always socialized to think of myself as an intelligent person. When you are teaching yourself an entirely new body of knowledge that you've never quite interacted with in the same way--I mean, I took, like, Computer 101 class, so I knew, like, what binary code was or what binary was or what the CPU is. I actually had an interest when I was an undergrad in building my own computer from scratch. I really wanted to, like, put everything together because I thought that was really, really cool. I'm not a very tactile person, so I had never worked with anything in that way before. So those were entirely new concepts to me. I don't think I've ever felt so defeated as trying to understand what a four loop or what a wild loop is and why I would use it, or what data structures are, or what an algorithm fundamentally tries to do, and over the course of the last year I have, like, doubted my intelligence. I have sincerely believed that my brain was just broken, and I've just discovered things that were patched over in an education system that wasn't designed to serve me in the way that my brain functions. And I can go on rants for days about this, but I [inaudible] believe that should I ever be blessed with children I'm not letting them be educated in the United States of America, certainly not in the public education systems in which I was raised, in which I was educated, because those systems don't teach you how to think critically or think creatively about problems. They teach you how to think about solutions.Zach: Man. That's so true.Ade: And frankly, that does you a disservice, because one, you need to think about the problem, not necessarily the solution, because through thinking through the problem you are hitting on and thinking through critically all of the ways in which the problem is structured and you're examining your biases about these different problems. Also the fundamental work of thinking through a problem requires you to think through other perspectives, and I think it gives you a level of empathy for others that we don't necessarily get to learn in traditional educational structures. And I like numbering thoughts because I lose track of things really easily, but now I've lost track of several other thoughts that I had. But the point of what I'm trying to say is that I've learned so much about myself. I've learned about learning. I've learned that I'm not incapable of learning. I might be slower at picking up technical thoughts and high-level extraction in the way that other people may pick them up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a failure or that I'm broken. And I also--I do this thing where I don't quite give credence to the context and circumstances of my situation, and for those of you who are listening, I've been through some ups and downs, and I found myself recently comparing myself to other people, maybe in the meet-ups that I would attend or just--the D.C. tech circuit isn't that large, and just struggling to articulate why it was taking so much longer than other people to get to a certain level in my education, and I had to give myself a break, recognize not only that I was working with an incomplete set of cards, but also recognize that I'm not working on anybody else's timeline but my own. [? will say (something in a foreign language,)] which means that we don't work by somebody else's watch, right? Like, we're not working on the same timeline, and that's okay. So yes, I've learned a wealth of things about myself, about the world, about learning. Did you know that actually--this may or may not work for you, but it's really helpful when you learn things to not stack your learning every single day. Zach: Nah.Ade: Part of what I struggled with was that I thought I have to crank at this five hours every day forever, and actually if you space out your learning--so doing two days on, one day off, then one day on, one day off, and then three days on, it actually gives your brain time to rest, time to create the synapses that allow you to build the blocks of understanding, and it's a lot easier for you to learn when you are doing, like, three fundamental things. When you are sleeping, which I didn't do for a very long time, when you are working out--because exercising is actually a way of enriching your brain--and when you are giving yourself on and off periods of learning. So it's almost like you feed your brain the information, and then you give yourself a break so that your brain can make sense of the information that you just provided it. Zach: But you know what though? I understand that. That makes sense to me, like, in principle, because when you think about, like, working out any other part of your body, like lifting weights, you have to, like, give yourself time to heal, right? Like you'll lift--you're not gonna work out the same muscle group every single day. Like, you're gonna--your upper-body one day. You can work out your legs the next day. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not gonna just do--you're gonna give yourself time to heal, and, like, that's really interesting though, because when you think about learning and the way that we talk about learning, it's often in the context of, like, "Man, you just gotta repeat, repeat, repeat," like, over and over and over and over, and the other thing that you said, which is so crazy, and something just hit me just now. You said--like, 'cause public schools don't teach us to, like, really talk about problems, they talk about just, like, creating solutions, and we kind of--like, we praise that, right? Like, as a larger society. We praise not being problem-focused, right? Being solution-oriented and, like, thinking through actionable items to solve things, and it's like, man, there's value in, like, slowing down and really understanding the problem.Ade: Right.Zach: And, like, really ruminating on the problem, and it's funny because the next thing you said, which also hit me, was focusing on the problem can really help you grow in empathy. And, you know, I pride myself--I call myself an empathetic person, but I'm not really good at, like, slowing down and focusing on problems and, like, really, like, thinking through and, like, cycling problems over and over and, like, being like, "Okay, what's really--" Like, really, really slowing down and thinking about the problem, and that's feedback I've gotten on my job recently, and I had to--like, for me, like, that was just a gut-check, you just saying that, 'cause I'm like, "Dang, am I really as empathetic a leader as I think I am if I can't slow down and focus on the problems?"Ade: Right.Zach: So that's real. So look, and all of the things you talked about, all of the things you've been learning and you've been picking up, you didn't talk about why you're doing it. Like, what are you trying to do?Ade: At first it was solely because I wrote this list of 23 promises to myself on my 23rd birthday. I was going through this period--right before my 23rd birthday I went through this terrible break-up. It was with this person that I had a relatively toxic relationship with, but I was trying to find the win. I was trying to sift through the relationship and find all of the bits and pieces that added to my life, because I don't necessarily believe that I have experiences for the sake of those experiences or the sake of just having a terrible thing and then getting past it or whatever. I think that I need to learn from everything that happens to me, even if the lesson is "Wow, that person was terrible. Never again." So in compiling this list of promises to myself, I decided I was gonna learn a new thing, and I had just gone to a class that is held here in D.C. called Hear Me Code, where in a fem-centered space, or for people who are feminine of center, you come in, you learn how to write basic lines of code--so you're not really creating a program. You're just learning how to write basic lines of code. The syntax of Python, which is a really, really easy language to read and conceptualize, and I was like, "That is so cool. I really like that. I'm gonna learn how to code." Knowing now what I wish I knew then, that was a really, really dumb thing to do, because when you create this abstract idea or this abstract goal, it's really, really difficult to hit your mark, right? How do you know that you've learned how to code? Could I technically print "Hello, World" to a console in, like, three different languages? Sure, I could. Four now, whatever, but have I reached the level of mastery that it requires to call myself a software engineer? No, I have not, and the gap between those two ideals is so extreme that I almost set myself up in not thinking through what that meant. It is this character-building exercise now for me in that because I'm having to think through all of these really, really difficult things and all of these really, really high-level concepts, it also almost forces me to daily reassess who I am as a person and what I am dedicated to conveying to myself about myself. Yeah, I hope that answered your question. I have a tendency to, like, ramble, which you can see in my code, but--[both laugh]Zach: We both do. Nah, [inaudible]--Ade: You know, but I'm trying to convey an idea here, dammit. [both laugh]Zach: No, no, no. It makes sense to me. I think--I think for me it's interesting because your reasoning and, like, passion behind it is much more mature and, like, what's the word? Just the desire for you to know yourself through what you're doing rather than you being like, "Oh, I want to do X, so I'm learning this," right? There's a story and there's a journey there. So no, it makes sense to me. It's cool, and it's just--you and I have talked about it offline, but I wanted to make sure our listeners kind of heard the "why" behind it. 'Cause we've alluded to you learning this and spending your weekends and your evenings studying and going to class. I wanted to make sure that people knew a little bit more, and I know we'll continue to share as your journey continues on. Let's do this. What else do we want to talk about? What we got? We got, like, about a little over 35, 36 minutes in. Do we want to do--let's read some of these reviews, yo.Ade: Okay. You're not seeing me. You may be hearing the ash on my hands, but this is the Birdman hand rub.Zach: I hear--I hear the [?]. How are your hands so small and so ashy? That's crazy.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow.Zach: That mug sound like *shaka-shaka-shaka*.Ade: That attacked my character.Zach: Shaka-shaka-shaka Khan.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.Zach: [laughs] That sounds--they're so ashy. Let me see--let me see.Ade: I just want you to know--nope. No, no. You don't need--you don't need to see. I washed--in my defense, dear listeners, I washed my hands before I got on this call because I have been dealing with a brood of approximately fifty-'leven children in this house all day, and, like, half of them were sick and gross. So I had to wash my hands.Zach: Oh, I feel that. That's crazy that you said "brood." Let me--but you know what though? We have these mics. The mics are pretty sensitive, so let me just see. Let me see, 'cause I just put lotion on my hands. My hands really--they should sound like two wet slices of ham rubbing together.Ade: Okay, yuck.Zach: [laughs] 'Cause that's how moist they are. So I said something moist--Ade: Mucho yuck.Zach: And then I said moist. Okay, here we go. Let me see. Nah, that sounded like a little bit of sandpaper running together as well. Okay.Ade: I didn't even hear anything. [same] This is trash.Zach: [laughs] Well, I can hear it in my mic. That's funny. Let me see. Hold on. Y'all hear that? No? [that time I did] Nothing?Ade: Nope.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. I'm moisturized over here, baby.Ade: Wow. So now I'm going to get on here sounding like Ashy Magoo.Zach: Not Ashy--not Ashy Magoo.Ade: There is--there is no justice in the world honestly.Zach: That's crazy. And can I keep it a buck with you? I haven't actually put lotion on my hands all day. I'm just naturally moist.Ade: All right. Okay, well, that's my time. I have to go. I must go. [?]Zach: [laughs] Let's go ahead and read some of these reviews.Ade: All right, bet.Zach: This one is from--first of all--hold on. Before I just get into reading reviews, right, let me put, like, an actual, like, intro and reason as to why we're doing this. We haven't read one review in the past year, and we have over 100--we have 127 reviews on iTunes, and then we have, like, a handful of other reviews, like, on our other spots where we publish our podcast, and so we just want to, like, thank and shout-out some of these reviews, man. So, like, I'ma read one, and then, Ade, I don't know if you have yours up, you want to read some, but I'ma start--Ade: I'm going there now.Zach: All right, dope. All right, so this one is called "A Breath of Fresh Air." That's the title, and it's from E from D.C. "Definitely a podcast worth listening to. Being a person of color in corporate is sometimes difficult to navigate because you may not know many others like you who have managed to lead a corporate job. You may be the first in your family working corporate, or you're just trying to figure out what your corporate identity is. Thank you for creating this podcast for us." Thank you, E from D.C. Shout-out to you. Thank you so much.Ade: Shout-out to you.Zach: Shout-out to you. Let me--let me read one more, and then I'ma let you go. This one--this one is from Jonathan Jones Speaks. "Built For This." "Their voices are made for podcasting." Uh-oh. "I love how you both feed on each other's energy, bringing on guests that add tangible insights and tangible instructions. Your stories are transparent and transformational. Continue to educate and elevate." Thank you, Jonathan Jones, from the Speak Your Success podcast. Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.Ade: All right. So I'm gonna--I'm gonna go with two that are back-to-back. So the first one is from Lee Cee Dee [?] titled "Amazing Guests and Content." "For a podcast that's fairly new, Living Corporate came out the gate very strong." Thank you. "The topics are so relevant to working millennials, and the guests are amazing. The first episode will always be so memorable and poignant to me, but also check out the mental health and LGBT episode as good places to start." Thank you, Lee Cee Dee. Next one. This is from Mixed Girl Maine. The title starts, "This is for us, being corporate while." It reads, "Thank you for this podcast. I am a former senior [?] manager of HR and an operations manager in the tech field. Being both the only or one of the few [?] managers and typically the only woman in upper management, I have felt for many years there was no community for me." We got you, girl. "This podcast is my community. It speaks directly to me, my experiences, and since my corporate career ended last year with difficulty, I just wish I discovered this well before this week. Keep it up. This is amazing."Zach: Man, I love that. Like, we'll just stop right there. I love--I love the fact that we've created something that people actually listen to and actually find value in. Like, I could tear up. I could cry a little bit to be honest. Like, that's awesome.Ade: This--why haven't we done this before? I truly--Zach: 'Cause we're trash, Ade. [laughs] 'Cause we are wack.Ade: I've never, like, gone looking through--Zach: I've skimmed a few, but I haven't really taken the time to, like, read and [?] on some of these reviews. Like, these are beautiful. There are some others on here that are just so--and some of 'em are long.Ade: I love how Candice came in repping the gang. Like, she was like "gang gang" out here.Zach: She definitely came in gang gang gang. She said, "I might be biased 'cause it's my husband, but yo, this podcast is fire." I said, "Come on, baby. That's what I'm talking about." She's my peace and my reviews.Ade: Oh. Well, then. Look, listen, I hear you.Zach: The "be his peace," that mess gotta stop. I literally--I be wanting to throw stuff when I see those little posts.Ade: I just personally--all right, well, I'm just gonna leave that alone. I'm gonna leave that alone.Zach: [laughs] I saw somebody--so I'ma say--I'ma say this joke because I feel like--'cause we're essentially a D&I podcast. Well, really we're an I--we're an inclusion and diversity podcast, but anyway, that's for another time. I saw some post that say, "My Latinx ladies, instead of trying to Hispanics, you need to be Hispeace."Ade: Oh, my God. First of all...Zach: [laughs] I said, "First of all--"Ade: That is terrible.Zach: That is trash. I was like, "First of all--"Ade: Secondly, [?]. Be Hispanic.Zach: I said, "First of all, please be Hispanic." First of all, Hispanic is not a culture, but please embrace your Latinx roots, whatever those may be. No, you will not sacrifice to be that some dude's peace. No. Ade: So here's the funny thing.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Set his whole world on fire. I'm joking actually. [?]Zach: [laughs] Set his whole world on fire? That's super--so, like, do the opposite. Be his destruction in this mug. Wow. No, but, you know--Ade: Don't take my advice, y'all. I'm not straight. I have no relationship advice for anybody. All right, moving forward. JJ, cut all of that out.Zach: Moving forward. No, no. He's gonna keep it in. This is gonna be funny.Ade: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.Zach: So what else do we want to do here? So let's go ahead--you know what? You know, we ain't gotta give 'em everything. Let's stop. Let's stop right here, okay? I do have an announcement though before we get up out of here.Ade: Oh?Zach: Yep, yep, yep. So you've been rocking with us--if you've been rocking with us for any amount of time, you know that Living Corporate is not just a podcast. We actually have a blog. We have a newsletter. We have giveaways.Ade: All that.Zach: We have all of that. We have a lot of things going on, and I'm really excited to announce the fact that Living Corporate is now ready to expand our writing platform. So you should be expecting WAY more written content at a much higher and consistent clip than you have in the past. We have a team of writers. Like, these are people who are actively in Corporate America, focused and passionate on diversity and inclusion, focused--they have experiences in just being other in these majority-white spaces. We have some folks--I don't know if y'all remember--y'all should remember--Amy C. Waninger. She came on, and she was our guest for the Effective Allyship episode. She's actually one of our key contributors, key writing contributors, for Living Corporate, and so--Ade: Shout-out to Amy.Zach: Shout-out to Amy, man. Shout-out to Amy, yeah. Like, straight up. Love to all of our writers, and just really excited to tell y'all. So, like, you know, I think it was--I don't know. I guess whenever we had, like, our last random episode. It was, like, in the New Year, I think. I don't know if it was, like, the New Year or if it was, like, a New Year's Resolutions episode, but we talked about "Hey, we got more--we got, like, more content. Like, we have more stuff coming." Or maybe that was the Season 2 Kickoff. Maybe that's what it was. Kind of running together, but the point is we talked about the fact that we had more stuff coming. We were gonna wait until it was ready, and so, like, I'm just really excited to say, like, it's ready. Like, it's almost April. We've been, like, lying in the cut just getting our content together. So for all of my creators, y'all know how it goes. You don't want to just kind of jump out there. You want to make sure you have a little bit in the tuck. So we have it already, and we're just excited, so make sure you check us out on livingcorporate.com--I'm sorry, living-corporate.com, please say the dash, 'cause Australia is still trippin'.Ade: Big trippin'.Zach: They big trippin' to be honest. Yo, also--now, this is not a current events podcast, but yo, my man who busted the egg against my mans head though. Crazy. Ade: Egg Boy for president of some country that's not this one.Zach: Shout-out to Egg Boy. Yo, and also--hold on. So we can make sure that we're being fair, also shout-out to--shout-out to the Muslim woman who confronted Chelsea Clinton in a respectful but intentional way about her showing up at that vigil though. Shout-out to her too.Ade: I--I have some thoughts--oh, let's get offline. I have some thoughts.Zach: You have some thoughts? We need to really actually--we need to actually have a podcast episode very soon about being Sikh and Muslim in the corporate space.Ade: I'm down for that.Zach: Like, we need to--like, we need to, like, really get on that, like, for real. Like, that needs to be an episode that we drop very soon, because the level of just, like--man, just the bigotry, dogg, and, like, I don't think people really understand that, like, Islamophobia is definitely tied into white supremacy. It's just crazy, and, like, I just--man. And it's crazy to say I can't imagine, 'cause I can, which is sad, 'cause we're black. So it's like I can definitely directly understand and empathize and sympathize with how these people feel, 'cause it's like, "Man," but it's just nuts, man. Like, it's just crazy. Like, we've got to talk about this. Okay. Well, shoot. Let's see here. Before we get up out of here, Favorite Things? Ade: Sorry, I had to cough for a second. Um, Favorite Things, Favorite Things, Favorite Things. I didn't realize we were gonna be doing this. So my current Favorite Thing is the console.log function in Javascript. Now, for those of you who do not know, console.log allows you to print something, anything, to the console, which is where you get your feedback about how your code is doing, and I know that debuggers exist, but the way I first learned how to identify where my code wasn't quite working correctly was just by inserting a console.log function into my code, and so shout-out to that beautiful, beautiful, beautiful piece of technology that eliminates the dark for me. How about you?Zach: So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Jordan Peele. He's a beast, dogg. Like, he's super cold.Ade: Have you seen Us?Zach: I did, and actually, let me take that--well, nah--yes, actually, I'm gonna go ahead and still say my Favorite Thing is Jordan Peele, because he gives space to a very chocolate, all-black family in a major motion film. Ade: Which you wouldn't think it would be surprising to see a family that have consistent skin tone amongst them not having one random mixed-race daughter with two black ass parents. That is not the case, as the history of American television has taught us.Zach: I'm saying. Like, and they're so--they're dark. Like, they're dark, and they're--it's just beautiful. So yeah, you know, Jordan Peele is, like--he's my nod for Favorite Things this week because--and I'm not saying Favorite Things as if Jordan Peele is not a person. He's a human being, but what I love about--what I love about Jordan Peele is, and, like, what I really aspire to do is to, like, create platforms for other people to shine. That's, like, really my passion, right? Like, creating platforms for other people to shine. Like, Living Corporate, I love Living Corporate because--and it's my passion, it's my heart, because we're creating this platform to, like, highlight the humanity and, like, the perspectives and affirm the humanity of people that often get ignored. Like, he's doing that with his work, and I did see Us. This is Us. Is it This is Us or is it just Us?Ade: It's just Us.Zach: It's just Us. Goodness. Yeah, This is Us makes me cry. Not the show, just the trailers of the episodes make me cry. That's why I know I can't watch the show.Ade: Hm.Zach: I know. I'm very sensitive. So Us is amazing. Lupita though? Ayo. She bodied that. She KILLED it. Oh, my gosh. But, like, and I knew she was--like, look, I'm not--I knew Lupita was a solid actress. I didn't know she was that cold though, so forgive my ignorance. Ade: You are apparently not forgiven, because here you are.Zach: Man. Yo, when I tell you--that performance though, and I reckon--now, look, she is--she is classically trained. She is a--she is a thespian. Like, she didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Like, she's been--she's been working for years. Like, she's been building her craft for years, so I'm not asleep to that.Ade: Isn't she Julliard-trained too?Zach: Uh, Yale. Ade: Yale.Zach: Maybe she went to Julliard too. We need to get a researcher. We need to get, like, a researcher that we can, like, point to, and they can kind of just mutter stuff in the background and, like, keep us on track, 'cause I don't know. But I do know that she went to Yale. In fact, hold on. I got Google in my hand right now. I'm just finna check it out. Hold on. Did you say Julliard just because, or, like, did you hear that?Ade: I feel like I read something about her being at Julliard.Zach: Well, we about to check it out. Nah, just Yale.Ade: Oh, no. I think it's Viola that was at Julliard.Zach: You right. All right. Well, JJ, cut all of the Julliard stuff out, but the point is--Ade: No, it's okay if I'm wrong.Zach: Okay. [?] Okay, cool, no problem. So JJ, keep all of this wrong stuff in. [both laugh] But no, she bodied that. Like, I was like, "Ooh!" I was shocked. Like, and everybody in the--and, like, you know, when you go to movies with black people--scary movies with black people, you know, it's really not scary and it ends up just kind of being, like, funny.Ade: A whole lot of commentary [?].Zach: A lot of commentary that I was--that for some reason I just thought that I wasn't gonna get this time, as if, like, we all was gonna show up and not be black at the movies, but it was great, and yeah, so that's my Favorite Thing. Okay. Well, cool. Listen, man. Shout-out to y'all for real. Appreciate y'all. Year 1. We are officially 1 years old. We here. I'm not gonna say we're never going nowhere, but we're gonna be here for a while. So get used to us, get comfortable. Lean back. Put your conference line on mute so we don't have to hear you in the background, or unmute yourself to make sure you actually speak up and you're heard. That was--that was kind of, like, a consulting joke, you know what I'm saying?Ade: [not enthused] Yeah.Zach: Yeah... all right, well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast! [laughs] We're here every week. You can follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, follow us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. You can check us out online at living-corporate.com. Please say the dash. Let me tell you something though. Our search engine optimization is so popping now, you just type in Living Corporate and you're gonna see us. Just type it in. "Living Corporate." We'll pop up. Ade: Yerp.Zach: Yerp, and then--yes, also, yes, real quick, shout-out to all of our guests. Shout-out to JJ, our producer. Shout-out to Aaron, our admin, okay? Okay. Shout-out to Shaneisha [?], our researcher. [long pause] Shout-out to all of our writers.Ade: [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Shout-out to all of our writers. Shout-out to our families and significant others, and yeah, this has been Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: Peace.

Host of the Subconscious Mind Master Podcast and Author of the book Fear Busters, Thomas Miller, talks about how he transformed his life in his later 40's and shares the never-before-seen tools he's creating to help people become more conscious in their own lives -- it's top secret, he hasn't even shared these tools with his own tribe yet, but he's sharing them here today! We also talk about the thoughts we develop in childhood and how those thoughts shape us as adults -- and while we cannot change our childhood, it is our responsibility to fix our subconscious mental patterns as adults. A fascinating person. A fascinating hour of conversation! NOTE: Theres 2 minutes of audio that sound funny, but that completely corrects after those 2 minutes. Sorry about that! But thanks for sticking with us!    Continue the Conversation on Instagram! Website:  www.jancius.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/angelpodcast/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/angelpodcast/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLOL5Dgsssv7A4C7SLvyqWg?view_as=subscriber   Connect with Thomas Miller Website Facebook   Show Notes *Show notes recorded by Sonix.AI.  [00:00:00] Hello beautiful souls! Before we begin I just want to share a few freebies with you. If you subscribe on my Web site, your name and contact info will be put in a jar that I pray on every morning. The Angels also have me pick a few people from that jar every week to text personalized Angel messages too. That could be you! All you have to do is subscribe on my Web site.   [00:00:20] Also you can win a free session with me if you write a positive review of this podcast on iTunes. After you post a glowing positive review on iTunes, just e-mail me with your name, contact info, and review and you'll be entered into a monthly drawing to win a free session. For details on all of this visit my Web site. www.jancius.com. W w w that Gen.   [00:00:41] You're listening to angels and awakening where we believe daily life can be lived from a constant state of love joy peace, bliss, ease and grace. Why are people always searching for a better way to live? Because there is one life doesn't have to be stress filled and anxiety ridden. You can make lasting changes that lead to a life you love. My name's Julie Jancius. I have the gift of connecting with angels and bringing through their healing positive messages to my clients every day. Join us on the angels and awakening podcast each week as we explore our big spiritual questions. Interview experts and bring through Angel messages. I am so excited you're here.   [00:01:38] So today we're here with Thomas Miller. He's the host of the subconscious mind mastery podcast. A podcast he's been hosting for over six years. His podcast covers the powers of manifestation, the laws of the universe, and how the conscious and subconscious minds work together. His listeners say that he provides an accessible road map to learning how to change your life for the better. How to turn your life into what you want it to be. Thomas has talked to all the great authors researchers scientists everyone who is at the forefront of brain research and what I love about your story Thomas is that you say you started to make this shift in your life that you really came into these big changes these big leaps in your later 40s. Can you tell us more about who you are and what you do?   [00:02:33] Hi Julie thank you. What a great introduction and loving your new podcast. Thank you for having me on.   [00:02:40] Oh thank you for being our guest. We just appreciate it so much.   [00:02:43] Well my story goes back quite a while quite a few years ago I had major changes though in my late 40s. So yeah I was a late bloomer of becoming conscious if you will.   [00:02:58] Hey it doesn't matter when it happens just that it happens right.   [00:03:01] Boy is that the truth. But you know, now my heart is for folks your age to get this because then you have all these decades in front of you to really compound this incredible growth that you can have in your life and the impact that you can have on the world is phenomenal. So yeah I played my part did my role and I'm living out my journey but. But yes I have such a heart for young people so I'm really thrilled to again to be participating here with you. But my story goes back to Tulsa Oklahoma where I was born and Tulsa is a fundamental town.   [00:03:44] I mean it's a great, talk about a great place to grow up wonderful community but it just had a fundamental underpinning in it culturally. So my parents were wonderful, very loving. We were a Christian family and that has a belief system and kind of especially in that it was it was accentuated because of where we were and the teachings that were common in around our community. So life was very rigid.   [00:04:18] I mean this is the way you were and this is what you believed in if you stepped out of that then there was disfavor with mom and dad and there was disfavor with the community so you can kind of see how even though everybody responds differently it was not the kind of place that you would step out of line if you thought I mean right. Because if you did I mean it was you know there was judgment quickly would would prevail so my brother and I because of respect for our parents are wonderful mom and dad who are both in spirit now we'd never either of us rebelled we didn't become the rebellious teenagers and climb out the windows at night and you know and go do all the stuff that a lot of kids do. We were obedient. So I went to college having never done a lot of the things that typical teenagers might have done.   [00:05:12] And that belief system created a box I guess that I lived in I thought that was the right thing to do. I mean that's how I was taught. I was brought up in Christian schools and all this and I just thought that that was the way that we were supposed to be. And I never knew that there was this whole big else wise way of seeing things or doing things. And what broke all that down was after four decades I had been through two divorces and see in that model you didn't get divorced once much less twice. So I had to sit down and figure out what happened. And that was my reaction to my second divorce was spent a year kind of just shaking my fist toward heaven. That was a bad year. That was kind of an off year but then I sat down and I said I've really got to figure out what happened because I don't want to do this again. So the first thing I did is I erased that entire belief system. I was like that didn't serve me. So I got to start there because at least I'm coming from that perspective. So I need to change my perspective on everything about life.   [00:06:25] So just like you would erase a chalkboard I erased my belief system because that belief system was really your programming since childhood right.   [00:06:35] Totally totally programmed and that's why I called the podcast subconscious mind mastery because I discovered after about a year of picking my life apart completely that a lot of the beliefs that I constructed as a child played themselves out without me having to lift a finger to do anything so I could see things that I was afraid of.   [00:07:01] That I built in fears as a child.   [00:07:04] All of a sudden I'd look when I was in my mid thirties and boy it had happened just as I had constructed it so let's break down like an example because I think you know so often in a spiritual community you know we talk big and broad back.   [00:07:20] How give me an example of this. And maybe one of the. The thoughts are the subconscious constructs that you had and how you rewired it.   [00:07:32] I found this really cool thing just not long ago and I did a recent podcast on it called Destiny cards. Have you ever heard of Destiny cards. No I haven't heard of that. Oh you ought to google it. It this is really fun and cool. So I found these destiny cards and it's basically it paints a beautiful picture of our how we came in and what our journey is through a deck of regular playing cards and there's a whole lot more to it than that. But my destiny Card said that I would have challenges in two areas relationships and finances or relating to money. OK so one of the constructs that I built in this actually really got reinforced after that my first divorce the biggest reaction that I had to my first divorce was that I was going to lose the money that I had built up in my 20s and 30s.   [00:08:34] It's not a funny reaction I think it's a typical reaction.   [00:08:38] I had two young kids and I was more concerned about the money. And that's hard to admit but that's the way it was.   [00:08:46] And see a lot of people would make themselves wrong about that. Like what. You weren't more concerned for your children than you were your bank account. But then when you come back and you you know these things that are built into the structure of the universe to show us the path and show us the way like this little Destiny card thing that comes along and says Dude you were wired to have these problems oh so I was just going through C and this is where the consciousness had I been aware of that I could have chosen. We all have choice right at the end of the day we all have choice. Absolutely.   [00:09:27] Then I could have chosen to do that to react to that differently. Problem was I was blind. I didn't know. I simply didn't know. So I went with what was there and what was there created this fear around I'm going to lose all this money well then when I started to pick my life apart I spent a year doing this with a journal literally almost every night reconstructing what had happened.   [00:09:58] So I would go back to particular events in my childhood and I was able to go back and find areas where I interpreted lack of money.   [00:10:09] So that's what happened in my in my family.   [00:10:12] We never quote unquote had enough although we had plenty in our lives.   [00:10:18] So you went back and you really found those moments from your childhood where these constructs of your mind started so that you could then piece it back together in a different way. Re Re pattern those thoughts within your mind.   [00:10:35] So what was normal to me as a child. That's absolutely right.   [00:10:40] Just as you said that was the process.   [00:10:43] What was normal to me as a child was. Inflation is going to rob all of our savings because prices are just going to keep going up and up and up.   [00:10:52] And that was true back in the 1970s. My mom lived in a world where she would go to the grocery store and a loaf of bread would be 50 cents more next week than it was this week. But it stopped you know it changed and the economy changed in the 1980s and it was different. And then prices were going down. So it's like but everything was just this crisis and emergency and the fear and we weren't going to have enough and if you died without accepting Jesus as your savior you were going to go to hell and just fear everywhere. In my background.   [00:11:27] So I applied that fear to money and sure enough that fear fulfilled itself.   [00:11:35] So I found myself after the second divorce having to start to rebuild everything financially and emotionally and spiritually and all of it yeah.   [00:11:45] I love those times though when they say spirit breaks us to make us.   [00:11:50] I had a similar thing happened in my life where it was like everything just came crashing down all at one time and it took away the self identity that I had put into my career that I had Clinton to my relationship and it it made me take a step back and realize I'm not worthy because I have this title I'm not worthy because I'm finally making the money that I wanted to be making at work. I'm not worthy because of this or that I'm worthy just because I am.   [00:12:26] That's a hard one to get sometimes isn't it. Yeah.   [00:12:29] Especially when we think we've messed it all up you know. Right yeah. So yeah I mean it's like and I've I've used a couple of other tools that just have helped me with perspective these destiny cards just happened to come across my path recently and I'm finding it to be very exciting and fun but it's an astrology is another thing that I've used to just paint the picture of what these realities are. You know I'm wired differently than you are. Go figure that Julie really.   [00:13:01] So my journey and the challenges that I'm going to face in my life and the struggles that I have to go through are going to be different than what yours having to go through and you might find ease and flow with money.   [00:13:17] Know I was looking up one of those cards in fact for a very close friend of mine and that's exactly what his card was. And that's what's happened in his life. You know it's like so that I'm that I came here to struggle in that area now that I know that.   [00:13:36] And like use a pun here put the cards all out on the table and let that be okay. Now what am I doing.   [00:13:46] I mean if this was just a kind of a fresh reminder that now what I'm doing is I'm studying everything I can about about finances and money and I'm just kind of going back to the basics and rebuilding that because I had done well in my 20s and 30s and then I let all this fear come in and kind of tear the whole thing down. So I'm just rebuilding that area and having fun doing it.   [00:14:13] Oh I love that. I love that.   [00:14:16] So Thomas you've been studying subconscious mind mastery for longer than it's been popular right.   [00:14:22] You've talked to the authors the the people who are at the forefront of studying consciousness and positive thinking. What do you know for sure from all your research on how our brains work how the whole system here on earth works to get us where we want to go to really bring the desires of our hearts to fruition.   [00:14:44] That's a great question.   [00:14:46] Well so a couple of things one of my favorite sayings is when the student is ready the teacher appears and that happens so much through that process and a teacher appeared for me in 2013.   [00:15:04] His name is Fred Dodson.   [00:15:06] He's written 25 books and he and I connected through me soliciting him to record his books for audio books. He had not done any audio books at the time so Fred and I have done now 24 of his 25 books.   [00:15:25] He has been a mentor to me in my growth in this new way of being that I can't even begin to describe and not only just from a mentor as in reading his material or taking courses or going to seminars or whatever. I'm sitting in front of this microphone for hours reading his material as him so I'm figuring out how I can inflect his voice how would Fred say this. So for the last about five or six years I've literally in a sense become like a second image of Fred Dodson right because I'm trying to really honestly communicate the way that he would. So I listen to his videos the way he talks the way he and flex and try in my own skin to inflect that. And I think that's had a tremendous rub off.   [00:16:20] So Fred has been really I have to attribute where I really got most of this information is from his work. So if somebody wanted to look into that they are certainly welcome to his name is Fred Dodson. And with that I would prove again because you're not going to pull one off on me again right. I'm not going to just believe something because you say so. So I put it all to the test and what I found is that his material and all of this material really on that we are co creators I have found it true over and over again to the point where I'm still like wow this thing really just manifest. I'm getting ready to get on an airplane this afternoon to go up to Colorado to work on consummating a business deal that I created over the last three years and it's happening and I am going to make money off of this transaction exactly as I created it over three years ago.   [00:17:22] So it does work. I mean it's exciting and it's still happening right now.   [00:17:28] I love that that's so perfect. So in your research where do you find to be the most fascinating part. What do you find to be the most fascinating part of my mastery or maybe from this author that you shared what is the most fascinating part of his message that he shares you.   [00:17:49] Well you're asking some great questions. I love a journalist's background. OK well me too then will I. All right then I'll I'll get to Shay here we'll get going on.   [00:18:02] I love it. All right. That's a great question. The most exciting thing to me has been the discovery that this is a soul based journey we get so caught up in the trappings around us. We live in a physical world. You live in Chicago I live in Dallas I go back and forth to Colorado. We have families. I heard a dog in the background. You know we have kids. We do our thing right. Yeah.   [00:18:35] And that becomes the structure of our reality. So everything we connect to are the physical things around us when you zoom up ten thousand feet like a drone you know now we have the drones I don't know if you've ever flown one but they are so cool because you can just hover up above the trees and then all of a sudden you can rotate that camera all around the view and look at it completely different than we do down in the trees.   [00:19:03] And when you view our life from a soul perspective and I know that's a lot of your work and you are gifted in that area to connect with that beyond the physical. That's a wonderful gift to have and I you know I think we all can to a degree but I know there are people that are more gifted with that my girlfriend Mirjana is like you you know she will hear messages from the other side. I don't have that I you know I mean maybe it's developable but I don't have it today more intuitive maybe but not in the way that you guys do.   [00:19:46] Fred did a book Fred wrote a book called lives of the soul and it actually picks up a death and it goes through until our next incarnation.   [00:19:55] What happens in between Michael Newton also does a lot of this type of this work that we are a soul and eternal soul on a journey that we are growing that this isn't our first rodeo and that we come in with in essence a blueprint it's like a roadmap we have choice within the road but we are on a road and boy did that answer so many questions that that I couldn't figure out in the old paradigm. So the most exciting thing for me was discovering from our higher level that this is a much bigger journey than it is manifesting a new car or new house or gee I'd really like to move to Chicago.   [00:20:51] How do I pull that one off.   [00:20:53] You know it's. Does that make sense.   [00:20:55] Totally 100 percent well and that's what we're really coming into right is I don't want to say stepping away from religion but it's because I grew up going to Catholic school and I could remember as a little girl the first thing that I wanted to be was a nun. But there wasn't a you couldn't have a family and be a nun. And I knew at a very young age that I wanted a family.   [00:21:19] So we have these constructs within our minds so young and coming and stepping out of those and realizing like you just said so beautifully so eloquently is that we are souls we are souls first and foremost and we can choose with our free will to live more from our souls energy to live more from our intuition which is I believe our souls thought system on the other side here and now. So this is such fun work to be able to share the broad community.   [00:21:59] Well and I know you'll be addressing this as your podcast episodes unfold but that you can connect with those souls and hear a message other than how we came up.   [00:22:13] Hey I'm trapped in Purgatory. Get me out of here or Woops I didn't say the right word and the prayer and I'm in hell because of it.   [00:22:22] You know it's like we laugh at that but you know I mean it's serious business that I like. I believe that for 40 years. What if I didn't get it right. You know a fear of hell. And one of the boy one of the transformative conversations I had is with a really good friend of mine Daniel Dana Carvey lives here in the Dallas area and we were on a patio not far from here having drinks one night and he said you know what if there were no sin.   [00:22:55] Think about that. Think about if sin just didn't exist because as he was saying at the end of the day who really is the judge well the Bible is the judge.   [00:23:08] Well wait a minute. There are 80 denominations because we can't agree on how to interpret the Bible. So let's back up who again is the judge whether you just send or not right. So what if you just took cent off the table and just said we're all on a journey now.   [00:23:27] If I if I kill another human being I'm going to certainly pay for that.   [00:23:34] That's a crime in our criminal justice system and this gets weird.   [00:23:39] I'm telling you this gets weird don't judge me on this but when you zoom up to that 10000 foot perspective then the mindset of today that everything is supposed to be nice and cushy and soft and easy and smooth goes away and I like the book by Neale Donald Walsh.   [00:24:05] Little Soul in the sun. Are you familiar with that little book now to cancel it out.   [00:24:11] Yeah it's a kid's book.   [00:24:13] Beautifully illustrated and the story is the two little souls on the other side who are getting ready to incarnate. And one of the little souls says that their mission is to work on forgiveness   [00:24:27] But the Little Soul is concerned because it doesn't know how it's going to be able to forgive unless somebody is mean to the soul that the soul has to forgive them so it's little partner soul says well I'll incarnate with you and I'll be mean to you. I'll do something to hurt you so that you can forgive me. How about that and the first hurdle. Yeah that first little soul says why would you do that for me would you really go down there and hurt me so that I could forgive you and the second soul says I would do it because I love you that much.   [00:25:12] I got to tell you so I don't know if you know much about my story but the way that I came into this gift was exactly that real my dad I.   [00:25:26] I love him to death and I go through my first podcast I talk about all the wonderful wonderful beautiful parts of him you know his really his one flaw was women and I caught him cheating on my mom for the first time when I was pretty young in elementary school and I didn't know how or what to do with that information or how to handle that information.   [00:25:50] And then I caught him again in middle school and in middle school again you know you're in a Catch 22 you love your mom you love your dad what do you do. And I ended up feeling in my heart that I was just going to punish him by pushing him away by not talking to him by distancing myself. So I did that all throughout my teenage years my twenties and we always tried to come back together but he'd have one girlfriend and I'd hear about how he had other girlfriends on the side and I was like I can't I can't be apart you know like at some point you got to get it together.   [00:26:29] And when he passed I started hearing from him a month before his family reached out to let me know he was gone and yeah. And I ended up having a visitation dream from him. Maybe six seven months later where he was on the other side and they actually showed me my house on the other side. They were at this big party it was like a welcome home. Julie's back and I could see my dad out of the corner of my eye walking around as I was talking to other friends and family that I didn't know I knew but I knew I knew him in the dream and my dad finally came up to me after what felt like a couple hours and he said well we should talk shouldn't we. And we went outside and there was a big lake outside and the scenery changed to a place we used to go out on a lake as a kid when I was when I was a child and he left me for the first time without us giving his side of the story just vent to him about him for hours on end and he just poured tears out of his eyes like I had never seen before and he said Julie if I could go back and take that all back I would but I can't. And even more than that dream when I woke up I was bawling hysterically when I woke up and that never happens.   [00:28:05] And I knew in my heart that he had been here not as a bad guy not as this flawed soul but he had been here to stir up some stuff so that we all could learn our lessons because he's got four kids we all that different stuff from him we all learned different stuff from him.   [00:28:32] He's got other stepchildren who learned from him as well and that is so right on.   [00:28:39] Here's the part that I can't connect the dots on. OK. As a person who has a community of people listening to them Where is the boundary so that people don't say well they're no bad on the other side I'm just going to go murder these bad people. Oh no. Whatever it might be you know. I don't I don't have that down yet.   [00:29:07] Karma is a bitch.   [00:29:10] Yeah.   [00:29:14] You will pay.   [00:29:17] So you know when you study this like you're talking about and this so fits Fred's lives of the soul and Michael Newton's work of what 7000 I think hypnosis sessions that he did to get this same message when you see recurring patterns.   [00:29:34] So it's like so many people who connect with the other side talk about this being the way that that things are. Again let's zoom up to the 10000 foot perspective of this is a soul growth process. So if you say well yeah there are no rules or judgments or anything on the other side. Well first of all there's gonna be hell to pay on this side. I don't know about you but I would not do well living in a 10 by 10 box for the rest of my life. This doesn't sound appealing to me at all. Not for 10 minutes much less for decades so you know there's there's that built in.   [00:30:14] Is this what I would really want to go do but if even if that didn't move you and you still had that that vile impulse Oh I got to show you something to let me show this.   [00:30:30] This works really well. I got a clue for the folks watching on video. Well we'll show you something here. This is something I've been working on. Nobody knows this. So I'm like.   [00:30:41] You're like the first I have I haven't even done this for my own podcast audience but we're going to let you know so because I mean you asked your journalistic skills are quite sharp so if we think about this from a soul growth perspective and we connect with what all is available when we do grow our soul it becomes such an incredible motivator to me to want to reach those higher levels of consciousness because there is so much magic up there there is so much wonder that we can't even imagine at those higher levels of consciousness that we don't get when we let our humanity get the best of us.   [00:31:32] You know.   [00:31:33] So what I was saying earlier and what you brought up like your dad's role in a sense was to stir stuff up for people so that they could grow.   [00:31:45] And we don't get that in our in our society today in our. I was going to say liberal or progressed you know our forward thinking society doesn't like those challenges doesn't make them that our society doesn't. It's not OK to be one who would stir up for others so that they could forgive. That doesn't resonate today. Right. We're not at that level of consciousness that you can know we like to make stories.   [00:32:14] We like to say oh well he must be really stupid because he lost his job or she must be this because this happened you know we want to apply a story to everything. He's a bad guy because he cheated. You know this story.   [00:32:30] It's all a story. Yeah I went through my transitional period I went through a program that a friend of mine said hey go just go to this it'll change your whole perspective on things that was called the Landmark Forum. And I did that weekend.   [00:32:43] I've done it once and it did.   [00:32:47] And one of the things that you take away from that program is how much we are enveloped in our stories. We make a story up out of everything.   [00:32:57] That's exactly right.   [00:32:59] So here's something that we're working on. This was a work in progress from one of the books that I did with Fred. And this is totally with his blessing. And we were corresponding on it yesterday. And he's like you've got to take this and run with it because this is this is good stuff so what the book was called low levels of energy. OK. So levels of energy by Fred Dodson and then the kind of the companion book that came before that about a decade prior was called power versus force by Dr. David our Hawkins and Dr. Hawkins used this as the basis of one of the largest clinical psychology practices in the country out of Long Island. He passed away in 2012 but left us with this incredible work that basically takes consciousness and puts it on a scale so both authors used the same scale Fred's treatment of the material is completely different Dr Hawkins is more scientific Fred is more practical applicable.   [00:34:01] But basically if you take all of our human emotions all of our human existence and put it on a scale from zero to 1000 let's say the numbers don't mean anything it just is the relativity if you go out and kill somebody that's probably a 20.   [00:34:17] It's down around the area of psychosis depression 50 fear one hundred anger 160 narcissism pride arrogance one ninety.   [00:34:28] Those are all low levels of consciousness so we've come up with this little system that's representing represented by these rings. So I've got four colors of rings. So if you take that all those low levels of consciousness and we'll just this is kind of a maroon color brown color and if you see that but that. So let's say that all of those are here right and then like daily life you know we we get the kids ready we take them to school we go to work we come back we help them with their homework we put them to bed we watch an hour of TV we go to we go to sleep that's that's just like we're just getting by.   [00:35:11] Right.   [00:35:11] Life works not bad not setting any records not you know creating anything not changing the paradigm of the culture but you know not bad we're getting by for those who can't see physically in the video he's got two rings and maroon ring and then he just added with that last statement a red herring on top of it. All right. So then we're going to put on top of that a golden colored ring. All right. So that's now we start to step outside of ourself and we start to put others first. Selfless service if you will we're moving up the scale the scale is is represented by these three ring stacked on top of each other that are different colors but we're moving up or getting higher. So we're growing and when you start to really step out of yourself when you put others first when you are full of joy when you're just happy when you're fun to be around when you give to others we Marjan and I were at a hotel up in Arkansas the other day and walking out there was this guy who was sweeping the floor in front of the door and one of those carpet pad things you know and he was just sweeping that and just getting and he'd go back the other way and somebody walk down the hall Oh thank you for staying at our hotel.   [00:36:30] This was at a Marriott. It was in his hotel I promise you he had known the darn thing right. But he was so proud. Oh thank you for being our guest we can't wait to see you back again. Have a nice day.   [00:36:42] That was that's this kind of that's that's the gold right. You know he's working twelve dollar an hour job up in Arkansas sweeping the floors and hauling the trash out and he's just serving other people. Beautiful. And then when so the final ring is is turquoise colored.   [00:37:01] Those are the pure levels of of unconditional love pure joy peace creativity.   [00:37:12] Think of Malala today is really representing this little girl that was shot in the head by the Taliban and lived. And her story is magnificent. Mother Teresa would have been in that we think of Gandhi you know so just those those areas where we really transcend our humanity because we're in such a different higher level different zone.   [00:37:38] So when you put all those together and you look at those colors that's the scale of consciousness.   [00:37:47] So when you're making that decision now remember we all have choice. This is the thing is at the end of the day nobody's making us do anything more than the visual. When you see those you know look say for the camera but if you're just listening on audio so you've got a maroon ring at the bottom a red ring a gold ring and a turquoise colored ring if you live out of that maroon colored ring you're going to get bad results.   [00:38:16] You're going to get bad results today and you're gonna get bad results on the other side you're going to have to come back and do it again. You want to do a do over.   [00:38:26] Now do you want to take two or three or five because you are stuck in that stubbornness or if you zoom up and you go wow you know and even if we again here for the folks that are not on camera let's just take the golden ring and the turquoise ring if you could live in that level of being loving giving serving helping.   [00:38:58] Not only are you in the paradox the cool paradox is that you feel better when you give out of yourself when you give it away.   [00:39:07] You get and that's built into the system.   [00:39:10] So it's like when we make that shift and then through our free will choice we say I am going to choose to serve somebody and we start to stack that up over decades of our life.   [00:39:29] Wow.   [00:39:31] I mean what you get back from that. So if you live that through five or six decades one of the cool things about being older there are very few. But one of the cool ones is you get the perspective. Wow you don't have as a younger person. You don't see what happened over those four four or five decades. But when you've lived through those four or five decades and you see compounding at work you realize you can compound interest and grow your bank account but you can also compound your karma if you will or you can compound your your energetic part of you and live that out over five or six decades and you have such a wealth of treasure at the end of that line that it's absolutely beautiful. And then you go on to much higher levels.   [00:40:25] There's so much more Julie there's so much more than we see now we could talk about this for so long I could talk about you I'd talk with you for hours.   [00:40:34] Oh there's so much that we don't see in our little boxes in our confined world that is below the tree level. And just when we get up there to these other realms there's so much and and that's my motivation. That's why I choose to do it what I do. Where's the boundary you ask. I don't think there is one. I mean if you break a law you're going to pay for it in our culture. There are some cultures where you can go do that and get away with it. Walk out scot free. Right. And you know so it's like comically you're not going to walk out scot free energetically you're not going to walk out scot free anywhere.   [00:41:13] Yeah.   [00:41:13] And that's what I tell my clients to because when I'm working and all of my sessions you know so many people and even mediums or psychics that I've heard on TV they'll say well on the other side there is no emotion and you don't hear or see people come through with emotion.   [00:41:28] And to me that's not true. One of the things that happens a lot is if somebody passed through suicide they will come through and I will be bawling hysterically in a session because that's the energy that they have on the other side. They're bawling hysterically. They're bringing that emotion through. And what they show me is that you know people who pass that way and there is no bad place on the other side. There's nothing like that. But we do have to go through a life review. On the other side. And that isn't sitting in a movie theater watching our lives on this big screen what it is is actually being in a simulation where we go through where we intentionally hurt somebody else and stepping into the body stepping into the mind of the heart of the other person and feeling our actions and how it hurt that other person which is actually where I think Catholics get the idea of purgatory because it is kind of this middle ground between us that happened but it doesn't take that long for most people to kind of go through. But we do get a much greater understanding it does help us clearer energy before we go through on the other side.   [00:42:49] Have you communicated with people who have either been in the midst of that process or just completed it like and can come back. Well that that you are communicating with like they had just been through that review or they were in that review I'd love to know what they say while they're in the process of that review of the review.   [00:43:10] It says if they take on and they become that other person because they physically have to step fully into that person and forget themselves to be that person in order to feel the way that their own actions in this lifetime hurt that person.   [00:43:31] So see if we're going to do that anyway. Yeah. Why not just do it today. Why not do it right. Right. Right. And I'm holding up the golden ring.   [00:43:42] Why not just choose to go ahead and do it today.   [00:43:45] I took Madonna's Madonna and I are partners but but not married and I took her son to school today just to be golden ring. Just. It's something I normally don't do but. And he's you know teenager whatnot. But I just said Hey it's raining. Would you like a ride you know. Yeah. It's stuff like that.   [00:44:07] It's that connecting with just to be there with somebody else to do something that's not serving you.   [00:44:15] Right. Oh I love that because you know it's so often people will say well what if I don't feel this through meditation or what if I don't feel that they think that they're not good they get to that place that golden ring. Right. But that's not what it's about. It's just about starting where you're at. And everybody has something that they can do from a self selfless point of view.   [00:44:39] So start there. Start with gratitude because everyone can do this every single soul that is here on Earth right now can do this.   [00:44:47] This working on this. We're putting a seminar together on this. Just started writing a book on it. Fred's involved consulted early with this.   [00:44:57] And yeah but the book's going to have your title isn't it. It is your name. Yeah. Is this the first one. I second the second.   [00:45:06] Ok. What was the name of your first book. Filibusters. OK. OK. Because there's more to come. That was coming through when I was praying this morning. They were saying talk about his book.   [00:45:16] Wow. Yeah. Yeah. You're not done here. Tom you've got a lot of stuff coming ahead.   [00:45:23] Yes you're good. You and I are going to talk. All right. All right Kyra. We're going to talk to you if you talk. No.   [00:45:36] That's awesome. And that I told you that I that we communicated about this yesterday. That was the communication was him handing the baton saying no you need to do this full out this one.   [00:45:48] Wow. Wow. Well they are so proud of you. Yeah. And I got to tell you too your mom and your dad are stepping forward and who is the younger boy that's on the other side.   [00:46:04] Not.   [00:46:08] Not from mom and dad. But there was a miscarriage.   [00:46:11] Yeah. Yeah.   [00:46:12] And that's. And and that soul has shown up several times by the way.   [00:46:16] Ok. As male. No. OK. First time I've heard male OK. Because they're bringing him forward and your mom. I don't know if there was a special bond between you and mom or you were kind of like.   [00:46:32] Because she comes through with tears in her eyes just saying how proud she is of you and just how how much you've grown.   [00:46:43] And she just she's making me feel it in my heart. Yeah well yeah and dad too.   [00:46:54] But she comes through with kind of some tears in her eyes so interesting because mom was the source of a lot of my challenge. She was my little soul that came here to rub me.   [00:47:09] Yes. Gave me lots of opportunities that I missed a lot of them.   [00:47:17] She says she did a good job.   [00:47:19] It seems that great job she played her role well thanks Mom. You were perfect. Yeah. Dad my Dad was an angel. I mean if you were to see him you'd see wings on his back. He was just an amazing amazing soul. And my mom was the source of my challenges. And you know this is so funny my brother and I are less than two years apart and he perceived that environment. He he knew of the challenges. He was very aware of the challenges not to say that it didn't affect him too but he responded to her differently.   [00:47:52] See I responded out of my paradigm what I brought in. He responded out of his paradigm. So here we were not ten feet apart. Growing up and and yet had these two different perspectives and outcomes and how it affected our souls differently and everybody has that story right. Everybody has that story but that's where we are so unique and so different. And yeah that mom would say that I I was in the room after she passed and now or when she passed and knowing what I know now of studying this material and being very comfortable with her soul transitioning was able to talk to her my brother and I in fact and his wife. We were the three together with her and were letting her know that it was OK and we would be OK and we would take the mantle and run with it from here and that she could let go and didn't need to hang on and I mean it was just hours before she left after that but but they left the room and knowing that her soul was probably still there. Knowing that I was in the room by myself and I sat down with her and had a conversation that I know she heard me and it was the conversation that I could never have with her here and it was kind of a clearing and it was a letting her soul know that it was OK I get it I get what happened here and be free.   [00:49:18] Godspeed and I love you.   [00:49:20] Yeah forgiveness really treat your heart right but you're released. We're good we're good here. Yeah yeah yeah. Beautiful that's beautiful beautiful beautiful. You know on Instagram the other day one of I just somebody popped down and they asked a question and I think it would be a good question. I've got my own kind of idea and how I'd respond but I just want to see what you think about this.   [00:49:46] So she said you know we have our subconscious. We have people like medium psychics intuitive Angel readers. How do you know that it to you hearing from the other side you hearing from angels or maybe like your girlfriend. How does she say that she knows them and just not our subconscious. These experiences that we had that we're just recalling.   [00:50:15] Got it. Got it. That's a great question and so many people also ask how do I know that it's intuition and not just my monkey mind. Right. You can bring it down to the earthly plane like even if we're not connecting with somebody on the other side. How do I know that this isn't just my Chatterbox up there going nuts that I really am hearing from divine source internally as intuition. I think it kind of comes from the same same type of answer to this for me.   [00:50:42] Now I know for Mirjana It would be that she would say very distinct feeling that she gets when these communications are coming it's like like no other. She has had it all of her life. So this is not anything new or unique for her so she knows that voice. Yep. So just on that. What is that. How is it for you.   [00:51:09] You know I've had several different experiences throughout my life. I didn't just hear my dad but in my early twenties. I had an experience that I've talked about with my listeners before where I heard I was actually out with this woman that I just randomly met on a business trip in Seattle. I met her on the street and spent the entire day with her. And at the middle of like talking after seven hours she just automatically went in to speaking in tongue.   [00:51:42] Wow. And she I remember thinking what language is this because this is not a language that I've heard on Earth before.   [00:51:52] This is not South Chicago I'm listening to hear it no no.   [00:51:57] And then I remember this analogy and it almost did feel like like a fog that you could see.   [00:52:06] And I remember hearing now this was at a very hard point in my life where my heart was just more heavy than it had ever been before. And I remember hearing it's okay you're gonna be okay. I'm here with you I love you I'm taking care of you everything's gonna be OK.   [00:52:28] And it just kept repeating and I remember knowing that that was an angelic that there were angels there that that was the Holy Spirit and that energy is something that when then I started hearing from my dad later on started working with different Reiki masters different spiritual teachers learning how to develop my spiritual get more. You're right. It's the energy of it. I know when I'm connected to it I know when I'm connected to the other side. And since I was the little girl one of my earliest memories is my dad telling me listen to your heart listen to your heart there's a little Julie there's a little whisper inside your heart and it's gonna talk to you and you have to listen to that whisper no matter what your mind says. And so I remember doing that since I was a little girl while always listening to that little whisper.   [00:53:26] And so I've trained myself since that time to understand what's my mind what's my heart.   [00:53:32] And that the thoughts the messages that come through from the other side they don't come through our ego mind. They come through the heart gut intuition.   [00:53:43] That's cool.   [00:53:44] That's beautiful yeah yeah.   [00:53:47] I had a very interesting experience to kind of flex my intuitive muscles. I was in Colorado for the last three years and there was a hiking trail that went up the side of a mountain literally right across the street from where I was staying and I went up there having done five or six or seven years of this work but still didn't have that touch with that voice and actually it started the first funny story on this is I went up there is a flat lander and started skiing and skiing kind of snuck up on me and I just love snow skiing. Now I think it's phenomenal. I just love it. But I you know I had I didn't have a system I would typically go every now and then would go skiing and hadn't been on a ski trip for quite a while and now I'm living in a ski town.   [00:54:44] So I was going up the chair one Sunday and this was really clear so I think this kind of is the same type of thing I was going to take a picture with my phone. So I had it in a pocket inside my jacket. So I reached to unzip the jacket pulled it down about a foot and I heard as I reached my hand and I heard this really clear don't and I was like Oh come on I'll hold on tight you know I'll I'll grip it I'll be careful.   [00:55:16] So I I pulled my glove I pulled my glove off by sticking it under my left arm. So here's my. And   [00:55:23] I reached in with my right hand got my phone took my picture slid it back in the jacket zipped it up so see it's all good and then I went to put my glove back on it now and oh so that was like oh wow I need to know more about this I need to learn more of how this works.   [00:55:47] So on the hiking trail I started to get in touch with that voice and it was always usually met with arguing from the monkey mind from the ego self.   [00:55:58] Yeah. So what I would do is pick a point on the hiking trail of like that tree up there.   [00:56:05] Okay. Let's just walk up to that tree where ego self mind would you be willing to just be quiet long enough we'll go up there and see what comes through I wouldn't take five steps. Run run run run run run run run run. Right here come back and I'd stop and I'd say wait a minute we had an agreement. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah yeah. Okay. All right. That tree just that tree. Okay. And then that tree turned into you know around that corner up there and then that turned into farther down the trail and then that turned into literally I could step on that hiking trail and the ego mind would go quiet and couldn't wait to hear from that still small voice. Yeah. And we'd go on for a long time and then sometimes it would want to question you know it's like Okay throw me a question water put about this or that should I write a book. Well you know and then and then.   [00:56:59] But then that voice would kick in and and I think it comes with an assurance and a piece and a flow you know just a you know that that's what's as you said well deep inside that little small voice problem is we always want to counter it with our monkey mind who is the alpha dog on the block. It's the one that wants to be in control. Yes. So we. Right. Right right right.   [00:57:27] And what I did again a visual here how can we create the audio part of this.   [00:57:34] So like if you like put your put your hand up like cup your hand up and like like you're gonna swat a fly that's below you on the desk OK you've got your hand you're ready. The fly is going to swing by. Boom you're gonna whack it right.   [00:57:50] So that's our ego mind and down here now be the little fly on the desk you know now down here is that little still small voice and it just whispers and it's really soft.   [00:58:06] And you know another point on that Julie is we have to be in quiet environments I think to hear it more and our world today. Sir dad on our world today is so full of noises everywhere. There's a television on and every waiting room and restaurant and airport and everywhere you go. And we can't be quiet.   [00:58:28] So once you get quiet you'll hear that voice more but what happens then is the hand that you've got cocked up here and ready to go whack it hits the.   [00:58:38] It knocks it back down and into its place. Because I'm the boss.   [00:58:44] So what I did is I just shifted roles now to where the little still small voice is the hand up above not ready to squash anything but where I brought that monkey mind into submission to where.   [00:59:01] Now when that still small voice speaks the role of the monkey mind is all okay.   [00:59:09] How do I do that.   [00:59:11] So when the little voice says write a book about the four rings then it's not argue we're not arguing there's no point counterpoint.   [00:59:20] We're not contradicting it. It's okay. Well I better watch program am I going to write it in word or Scrivener or you know it's well what's the first chapter going to be. How's the structure going to be the outline and you know that's where the arms start taking the baby steps that lead to the bigger steps that lead to the whole thing.   [00:59:38] You take start taking the actions and then along the way you stop and you listen well maybe that's not the right direction for this chapter. Oh what is. Oh okay. Got it. Off we go.   [00:59:49] Yeah.   [00:59:51] Yeah. It's a wonderful way to live.   [00:59:53] It is a wonderful way to live and see beautiful.   [00:59:58] You know you are asking to again I mean you have to make the shift up to these higher planes of being back to our little rings you have to get up to the golden turquoise ring because when you live from that perspective then you're just waiting for the next piece of instruction. Oh Fred had a great analogy story in a couple of his books and it's a really easy simple story but it's just like think about our life as a river.   [01:00:26] There's a point where we get in and there's a point when we get out and we're in a boat and we're given an oar.   [01:00:32] There's our choice and we float down the river and as he says so many times we want to paddle upstream.   [01:00:43] Or we want to drag the boat over to the bank and get out because there's a better River over on the other side. Right.   [01:00:49] If we could just get over there that's the river and I realized when I was narrating that story I just had to stop because it was like man that's how I lived my whole life. Yeah.   [01:01:02] Was paddling upstream all the time or cross currents are always fighting the flow. But when we just used the ore to gently bump us along the way and we just get out in the middle of the river and start flowing down the river. Oh there's a rock up there. Okay let's just move to the left a little bit.   [01:01:21] Got it.   [01:01:23] There's a nice flat spot of the river. Let's go over there and have a nice picnic lunch and just take a break.   [01:01:30] Got some rapids coming OK. We're gonna have some fun here right.   [01:01:33] Well let's go shoot the rapids.   [01:01:36] Life picks up it slows down. We have challenges in the way. Maybe there's an alligator in the river. We have to go around him. You don't have to go right toward him. Paddle over there and ask him how he's doing. You don't have to go forth with him right. Just paddle around. So it's a it's a beautiful analogy of how we just get into the flow and when you get into the flow. Life will take you where you're supposed to be just like the river will take you down to the to the place where you're going to get out.   [01:02:09] Life will get you there and it will all be good and well and fine I was just texting my mom because she keeps sending these texts and I keep hearing these things in the background. She she'll go through and she'll send ten at one time say her mom or my mom. Be sure you're talking to the right Mom. Yes totally. Oh my goodness. Thomas this was just the best. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. And I always asked my guests who do you think I should interview next on this podcast or who do you know who I should interview.   [01:02:50] Fred Dodson. OK my mentor. Absolutely fantastic. Oh.   [01:02:56] Eyes up and you know what time Thomas for people who want to connect with you online learn more about you. Where can they find you. You on your Web site and social media.   [01:03:06] Well thank you for that. So on Facebook we have a little podcast listeners group it's called subconscious mind mastery podcast listeners on Facebook and you can ask to join that group and we put up episode information and some behind the scenes cool stuff and that kind of thing. So there's that. And then just hop over to the podcast at subconscious mind mastery on iTunes and Spotify and Stitcher and all those good places where you can listen and my email is Thomas at subconscious mind mastering dot.com.   [01:03:39] Perfect. Well thank you again so much for being a guest on our show today.   [01:03:43] We are very appreciative that you would do this for us.   [01:03:46] Jill you are amazing and I love what you're doing. Thank you   [01:04:02] My dear friends. You don't know what an incredible huge huge huge blessing it is to this podcast when you write a glowing positive review for us. It truly helps us get the best experts on the show. I know this might sound a little complex but if you send me an email after you post a glowing positive review here I will put your name into a monthly drawing to win a free 30 minute Angel message session with me and it may just be broadcast on this show at a later date. Your name will be kept in the drawing every month until you win when you email me. Don't forget to include your name contact information and positive review. I hope you win   [01:04:45] Tune in for a new episode next week where I'll share tools and guidance that can help you fall in love with your life and start living it from a place of peace bliss and ease.   [01:04:56] Thank you so much for listening to the angels and awakening podcast. Until next time know in your heart just how deeply you're loved on the other side and open up your heart to all of the random unexpected blessings that your angels and your spirit team are trying to bring into your life right now.   [01:05:19] Disclaimer this podcast provides general information and discussion about energy healing spiritual topics and related subjects the conversations and other content provided in this podcast and in any linked materials are not intended and should not be construed as medical psychological and or professional advice. If the listener or any other person has a medical concern he or she should consult with an appropriately licensed physician or other health care professional. Never make any medical or health related decision based in whole or even in part on anything contained in the angels in awakening podcast or in any of our linked materials. 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Dave Jackson – S2E1 New Media Lab with Rob Southgate       On this episode, Rob’s special guest is Dave Jackson from the School of Podcasting. Learn more, subscribe, or contact us at www.southgatemediagroup.com.  You can write to Rob at southgatemediagroup@gmail.com and let us know what you think.  Be sure to rate us and review the episode.  It really helps other people find us.  Thanks!      Dave's Twitter @learntopodcast Dave's Website SchoolofPodcasting.com Rob Southgate’s Twitter @RSouthgate Email  southgatesmallbusiness@gmail.com Website  www.southgatemediagroup.com/newmedialab Patreon  www.patreon.com/newmedialab Pinterest www.pinterest.com/SMGPods/new-media-lab/   SHOW HOSTS: Rob Southgate SHOW EDITOR: Rob Southgate PRODUCER: Rob Southgate   #NewMedia #Podcasting #Business #YouTube #Blogging #Vlogging   00:00:09 Welcome to the second season of new media lab. I m your host Robert Southgate, and it is great to be back. Lifer means world wind since post in the last episode of this podcast. It's hard to believe the last new media lab posted two and a half years ago, yet your we are right after launching the show, I started in MBA program in marketing Roosevelt university, which I just completed a couple of weeks ago as part of Miami. A I had the opportunity to an independent study which involved with the business side of podcasting. The thesis I had to prove was this podcast did not need to have a celebrity as a host to attract a large audience. It's a mixture of audience engagement consistency. And increasing visibility. The analytical process, I employed to prove my thesis was I enter viewed sixteen podcasters with audiences from fifty purpose owed to over three hundred thousand per episode. I asked everyone the same ten questions the answers. I got had a lot of similarities yet were all very different at the same time. The bottom line is I got a lot of incredible information out of each. And every interview I asked how they engaged with their audience their social media tactics, timing and consistency of show posting how they perceive gaining market share today compared to when they started podcasting. And what the host dude, which she high visibility we discussed best practices and what they perceive as the secret to their success. 00:01:44 It was an absolutely fascinating project the provided insights, well beyond what my thesis posited being a content marketer. I couldn't simply conduct all these interviews. Filter them down into a paper and turn it in for a great and just leave it at that. I recorded these interviews and planned to share them right here on new media lab. And don't worry. I was up front about this with all my guests. In fact, they were all enthusiastic willing participants so much so that they agreed to help with another little project, but more on that in a moment. This is a really difficult question. That's a great question. Good question. That is a great question. It's a really good question. I love this question. And I think this really is going to help me kind of meditate and grow on. It wanna hear the answers checkout season two of new media lab with Robert Southgate new episodes every Tuesday available on Spotify. I tunes Google hod casts, and wherever you subscribe to your favorite podcasts. The second part of this project is I've launched a patriot page for those who don't know patriots away for you to support the artists and. Content creators directly I've set up. The new media lab patriot page to help offset the cost of doing this podcast. I don't see patriotic as a tip jar. It's much more than that in order to provide value to the new media lab patrons I asked another question of each interviewee that I'm not sharing on the free version of the show. Only supporters will get the answers the question. How do you monetize? 00:03:22 Yeah. I know the question you get asked all the time. If you're a podcast or that you ask every podcast you run into the answers. I got back were incredible. You don't wanna miss out on these each week? I plan to post the answers to this question by the guest featured on the free show exclusively for the supporters on patriot. I also plan to post unedited versions of some of the interviews casually as well. For example, one interview was over two hours long, and Chuck full of ideas and information that simply I couldn't fit. It in the paper, I was writing. But that you will definitely want to hear my suggestion. Pause this podcast, go to patriot dot com slash new media lab and become a patron after you've done that come on back and listen to this episode. Also, if you wanna connect with the show, you can Email us at Southgate small business at gmaiLcom, you can find new media lab on Facebook by searching at new media lab show. You can follow me personally on Twitter at our Southgate or on Instagram at rob Southgate. Our networks website is Southgate media group dot com where you can find this as well. As over a hundred other podcasts, plus blogs, videos, Ben much more. Finely, follow our newest endeavor on Twitter at Indy podcast project and be sure to use the hashtag support. Indie podcasts when posting your own shows or sharing anything that's podcast related. Our first guest of season to his Dave Jackson. 00:04:55 You may know him from the school podcasting. If you don't pause this and go subscribe to that show right now, you can come back and pick up right where we are. Okay. Great. I'm really glad you came back. Dave is been podcasting since April of two thousand five in helped hundreds if not thousands of podcasters launch and improve their shows when we started our network Southgate media group, Dave was one of the first people we turn to he is full of excellent information and shares it freely. There are many reasons. Dave Jackson was inducted into the academy of podcasters all fame at the two thousand eighteen podcast movement. He is simply an icon. And I am thrilled that he joined me for this interview. So Dave describe your podcast, it's called the school of podcasting. Hopefully, that's obvious enough. And I help people plan launch and then grow if they want to monetize their podcast for this question. I know you do it a lot of different podcasts. I'm asking. When did you start podcasting? I wanted to win you started and win school podcasting started. I started in my very first one. That's a great question was in April of two thousand five I was doing a blog for musician. So I turned what would eventually become the marketing musician podcast. It's been under three different names because I could never find the right one. But that was back in April of two thousand five and I'm going to say six months after that came the school podcasting because I was losing my job. And it's hilarious. Because the the one thing I tell people to do do not get an podcasting for fast money, and I needed a job that had flexible hours because I was going to go back to school, and I needed something to keep me in my phone in my car, and and maybe some insurance in their possibly food. And so I said well. 00:06:51 This whole membership thing seems to be the big buzz, and this podcasting things to be the big buzz. I'm gonna put the two together. And maybe I'll make some money, which is why I was also doing ATar lessons. I was you name it. I was doing it to make money because the first couple years were painful in the monetization world. Are you? A celebrity depends on the room. I walking into I would say, no, I'm not a celebrity. But when I was just in DC this last weekend, and I had somebody brought over to me from somebody already knew that said somebody wanted to meet you, but they were afraid to come over. And I'm like in my head. I'm thinking, I'm the most I try to be the most approachable person on the planet. And when I was at social media marketing world, I was walking down the hall and had somebody look up and go. Oh, wow. And I turned around, and there's nobody else in the hallway, and I go are you allowing me? And she goes are you Dave Jackson, I go. Yeah. And. Like, she's like, oh my gosh. I was like so that is always kind of bizarre. And so based on that, I would say, yes, I'm a celebrity, except if I walk into a room at say podcast movement. I was in there this year, and there was a whole bunch of people from radio in other areas that my little bubble, and nobody had a clue I was so it kinda depends on the audience. But you know, that's we have to define I mean, the academy of podcasters hall of fame that makes it sound like, miss elaborately. But when I go to the grocery store, don't get any discounts. And I don't know people, you know, I don't have to run from the car to the grocery. So no, I don't think I miss elaborately. I think it just depends on what audience I'm standing in one. Ed, you would also then I assume say that V celebrity that you do have doesn't really affect downloads. No, not really I mean, it's what happens is in. This is what I'm always trying to do is plant seeds. When somebody goes, I'm thinking of starting a podcast who. 00:08:51 I listen to hopefully that answer is is Dave Jackson. I had a thing. There was a an event called the new the expo and the former head of the podcast track. Step down in the guy asked Lipson immediate hosting company. This is before I worked there the guy from blueberry. And the guy from speaker all three of them said, what do you think about Dave Jackson? And so that is what I'm always looking for. I want somebody to go. Yeah. To go. Check out. This Jackson guy. Do you think gaining audience today is the same as when you started? It's a little harder but not by much because it really is the same. You have to know who your audience is do you have to record a podcast that has the information that they want you then need to go to wherever they are make friends with them. That's the one everybody skips. And then tell them about your podcast, and then hopefully, your podcast one spire them to tell other people. But the thing that's different is back in two thousand five you could type in somebody's podcast. And you're pretty sure it was going to come up, and I get this more often. Now is when I type in my podcast. It doesn't come up. It's not an apple I tunes. And then if I type in my name, it does why is that? And there are some things in apple podcasts that don't make sense. Like if you like mice show is now called school of podcasting in the early days. It was called the school of podcasting because I figured out that if you have the word the in your name you then rank against. 00:10:25 Everybody else who has the word thaw in your show. So if you have things that you don't need like the word podcast or something like that get those out of there because the search results depending on what screener on typically only show. Maybe if you do the old show all which is kind of a misleading button. It should say show the top three hundred because that's really what you're getting. And so I've had people at one it was I think it was called the quick cast. And they spelled quick K W I K cast, and if you type in the quick cast it did not come up and I'm like, oh, come on. That's you know, that's they spell the name weird. That's got to come up. And it's because they had the word the in the name. They took the out if you just typed in quick cast, whom they came right up. So if you're in terms of that growing your audience that's a little rougher, but I've never relied on apple podcast to make me famous. I say apple podcast is a phone book. And it's a place to be found assuming their search results leads people to that. But it's really not gonna make you famous. I'm actually doing kinda double secret probation show right now that I haven't told anybody about but it's in apple podcasts. And I'm getting about ten downloads and episodes. So that's really what being an apple podcast is going to get you about ten downloads. And people think unfortunately, that all I have to do is get my podcast in there and money will fall from heaven, and I'll get ten thousand dollars. So that's the part. That's that's harder. I think in the past it was easier to be found when people search for you. There wasn't as much competition. But in the end when people find you the part that hasn't changed is you still have to be entertaining. You have to deliver value, and you have to inspire people to want to tell their friends about it. And that hasn't changed at all. 00:12:09 So what are three key things that you've done to grow your audience? The the big one is I do my best to shut up and listen. So if I go to I actually host a northeast, Ohio podcasters meet up, and the reason I do that and people like will. Yeah. But you have all these new people show up, and they're asking all these kind of podcasting one on one questions though, Mike exactly, and they're like, what do you mean? Exactly. It's been awhile since I've been in their shoes. So for me, I wanna see what they're struggling with. I want to see what they think. Because again, my goal is to give my audience what they want and what they need, especially. So I do things like that. So I always try to go where my audience is the the more time, I can tell you the eye color of my audience. That's the best because you're connecting on every level of communication. You've got body language. You've got tone of voice, you've got everything going on. And then from there get into things like Facebook groups and linked in groups if they're coming back keep hearing. You know, things like that. But it's it's still kind of networking, and then just the other thing I've done probably two to grow audiences. I don't turn down podcast interviews a lot of people like how many downloads do you have? And I'm like, I could care less. If somebody I if I have the time and somebody says, well, you come talk to me about podcasting. It's I've never said, no. Because you you never know I had if we go back the northeast Ohio podcasters meet up by six guys at a at a meeting and a lot of people like well that's complete waste of time. 00:13:41 Oh, except one of those guys worked at the local TV station. And when they needed a podcast GU ru he called me, and I got to go on TV show for that. So I never underestimate who's listening. It may be. Yes. When you have, you know, hundreds thousands of people, listen, you have a better chance of quote, someone important or somebody that can help you. But, you know, little little shows grow up to be big shows. And they remember when you came on four. Yeah. And if you don't ignore them after now, you're the big show. And if you don't ignore them, guess what they become your biggest cheerleader ever. Yeah. So I if it was a three things I to me, it's all about content promotion, so going out meeting people letting people know what you do and things like that. And what was the third one? You said, oh, and then going on other shows what three key social media practices that you do to build audience one. Again, the seems kind of backwards. I always promote if I'm on somebody else's show. So how does that help me because it builds a relationship with the person who was on the show and that person when somebody says, hey, I need to learn how to podcast might say. Hey, what do you think about that day Jackson guy? I like that guy. He actually promoted my show when he came on. So again, just trying to be nice to to everybody don't be afraid of Facebook live. 00:15:01 I did one today, and I fired up my phone. I stood by the window because I need a better lighting. And just explained what was going on in my head in the the fact that how goals are important because if you don't have one I felt kind of lost. And I get more comments on my Facebook stuff. I love the fact you just like talk to me on Facebook. It's just you riffing. And I'm like, yeah. So anytime you can connect with the audience. That's that's something. I didn't really expect. And the other thing I'm doing much better that I used to be horrible at is actually checking right now, I'm not I this is like blasphemy. So, you know, hang with me. I'm working on it. I'm almost not on Instagram. And I realize that I'm so old that actually say Instagram because I do realize now, it's the Graham, but okay, I didn't know that people that are younger. They're like, oh, man. I'm all over the Graham. And I'm like the grammar we're calling it the Graham now, oh man missing out. So I try to be everywhere. But I wasn't very good at being everywhere. And so like, I'm okay on Twitter. And I'm I. Spent a lot of time on Facebook. But I'm getting much better. At that. I have some tools now to keep me involved on Twitter because a lot of times I was getting lost over there. So I think that's the third one tried to if you're not going to be there don't set up an account because what's the point because then people go over and they go, oh, Dave on Instagram. 00:16:25 Oh, he's got four post one of them is, you know, his dinner from last night. That's not again, I I wanted deliver value and until I can figure out what I'm doing. But I was getting lessons. I I went to an event this past weekend and had somebody go you poor old white, man. Let me let me. How to do Instagram? So I'm getting there are you on Facebook Twitter. I mean, what are what are the those are the two that's really and the and the other one that I'm I'm ramping up because. Hello. It makes sense is linked in. Yeah. Because there are people. There are businesses now going we should start a podcast. And so I've I've met a couple people at conferences again that have said why are you not doing things on Lincoln, you that makes a lot of sense? So I started to play a little more on linked in. And I've I've got some plans, especially if not in December definitely in January. I'm to start doing video over there in a couple of things, and I've applied to be you can actually sell courses on Lincoln's applied for that. So that's that's going to be looking into. 'cause it makes more sense. I you know, podcasting often is used as a marketing tool. So why would I wanna go play on the, you know, marketing business platform where I did play for about a month on twitch, which was great. If a bunch of gaming. 00:17:40 Guys wanted to make a podcast. But I went over what this is cool. And if I want to sit there for ten years of Venturi, you know, if you depending on who you talk to which is going to be huge people are going to come over. It's not just going to be about gamers, and I'm like, I don't have time for that. And I realized I could make a huge I could be the one guy that they find. But I don't know that people looking for podcasters on twitch right now. So I just went to go spend some more time in Lincoln. So what is the secret of your podcast success from what I understand? Because for me. I just I go out. I find something that interests me. I kind of feel like I'm my target audience. But I also again because always trying to listen to the new people to see what they're getting struggled with or thriving struggles and things like that. But I have people tell me that without just making it all about me. I always try to weave in a story either something for my life or something I'm going through or something that affected me. And I try to be entertaining. And this this comes from a teacher in college. And I was taking extremely boring tech report writing class, and he would walk in and blow off the first fifteen minutes class and just make fun of people and just it was just a bunch of fun and cracking jokes. And then about that same time my niece at the time was I think all three and she had some sort of computer game on a CD. I think it was like Roger rabbit teaches reading or whatever. And I'm over. And I just keep hearing these screams and giggles, and she's just having a good old time. And I go in and like what do you do? And she's like I'm playing with Roger. And meanwhile, she's getting she's like spooky smart to this day. She still super spooky Martin, you know, if you can make education fund, people realize that they're actually learning stuff. So I always try to make it somewhat entertaining. I from an I think this is just me. Maybe that's it. I just I'm me. I don't try. I don't worry about my brand. I don't worry about. 00:19:40 About how I'm coming across. I'm just here to help you. And this is how I talk. So this is how I do it. And so over the years, I've had some really weird instances where used to show that was based on my faith called feeding my faith. Why played a clip for it. And all the eighth Theus this one I should say this one eight Theus came out and said, look, I want to hear about your invisible sky, buddy. And it wasn't even me talk. It was just a clip for another show too. Which then all the eighth is came out and said, no, Dave, you Yoon, your sky, buddy. You're great don't listen that guy. So there's this whole weird argument between my listeners, it was kind of different. And I just tried to every now, and then I'd always worry about this. Because when I try that's when it usually falls on my face. I will try to throw something specifically designed to make you laugh. Whether it's I remember I did a joke or a skit, I guess you could say on you know, how every. You know, there's a commercial for some sort of drug, and there's always side effects and people at the end, you know, call your doctor of this happens or this and that and and so I went through all these ones, you know, having a podcast can lead to making you have other podcasts and call your doctor. If your podcast lasts longer than four hours, and all these other things that were just trying to be cute and funny. So I was do that just because I want my audience to kind of expect every now and then something to be just a little weird. 'cause I think at times, I'm just a little weird. So I guess that's my success. I just I'm just me. And if you don't like me, I think I'm okay with that. And that's the other thing I think that that helps after a while just have to realize that not everybody's going to like you. And if you don't like me on my buddy Ray or Daniel or whoever. So what do you think the next big thing in podcasting is? 00:21:26 That is a great question. It's really hard to pick. Because as we record this. Now there, you know, we've had Spotify come on. We had Google podcast launch a new app and punt Pandora has just put their they're telling the water, and I'm not really expecting any of those to make a big deal because the the in-car dashboard that was supposed to be the big special people buy new cars that often and number two I had a Toyota Prius for a while it didn't have the index thing, but it didn't have bluetooth that. When I got in the car. Once I paired my phone with my car every time I got in. I just hit play. So I don't think having a play button on the dashboard is really gonna make that much of a difference because people that need that are, oh if I were to stereotype there, maybe somewhat older and not that familiar with how to sink Afon to a car in those people may not be listening to podcast. I'm not sure. So I'm really not sure what we need is more listeners. And I think I actually went to a picnic, and this is right after I got inducted into the hall of fame and my cousin was kind of poking fun at me. And she's like, oh, there's Mr. hall of fame. And I said, yeah. Yeah. Don't whatever. And she said, well, I'm gonna ask because nobody else is going to ask. And I go what she goes. What the heck I how do I what's a podcast? What what what's this whole thing? You're in. And I said you have phone and she goes. 00:22:54 Yeah. And I said, okay, go find this purple apper here. And so then my other cousin was like, hey, wait. Hold on. Let me get my phone. And so on the back porch taught five people how to consume podcast, and we need more of that. And I I really think that's going to be the big thing. I was kind of excited. I just saw one of my first holiday commercials, you know, with you know, sleigh bells ringing in the background of the whole nine yards. And I wish I could remember the name of the company, but they were saying how you can find guess for so and so and get these for grandpa. So he can listen to his podcast, and it was. Yeah. And it was a pair of headphones. And I was like, okay. They're saying podcast. Like everybody just knows what that is now. And because I'm old school away. I'm like, they're still people going a blood. Do I need to do I need to what to listen to that. So that I hear that more and more. You know, there's a show on TV right now called God friend in me, and the lead character is a podcast or who's doing? He's an atheist. His dad is a pastor is this whole weird thing. But again, they heeds costly recording podcast, and I'm like her at this is kind of cool that you just kind of going mainstream. So I wish I had an answer. That would say it's marked speakers, you know, the woman in the tube from Amazon and Serey and all these other things are I think they're all going to bring about three percent more people. And as things go up, it'll do it. But I wish I had the if I had the answer to you know, what's going to give me ten thousand downloads. I'd I'd be a millionaire. But I think it's going to be a comedy. 00:24:25 All of those. It was such a thrilled interview. Dave, I encourage you all to seek out his podcast and follow him across social media. There's a lot more to this interview. But like, I stated earlier I'm sharing the answers to the questions from my thesis on this show as with every interview, I try to leave with three key takeaways. The three that stood out to me from Dave our number one shot up. Listen, number two guest on any show that that'll have you number three make it fun and be yourself. What are your takeaways? What did Dave say that affected your business contemplation going forward? Share your thoughts on the Facebook thread for this episode. I would love to hear your insights. You can find Dave at David Jackson dot org or school of podcast dot com. Vines show on your favorite podcast app. Be at I tunes Google podcast, Stitcher, tune in or Android, be sure to subscribe and give him a. Great review believe it or not those reviews even help a hall of Famer Dave Jackson while you're at it play. Subscribe to new media lab with Robert Southgate wherever you listen to podcasts. You can Email the show at Southgate small business at g mail dot com. Do media lab is on Facebook search at new media land, our networks website is Southgate media group dot com where you can find this as well as over a hundred other podcasts, plus blogs, videos information about our live events, and so much if you wanna follow me personally, I'm on Twitter at our Southgate or on Instagram at rob Southie. Support this show and get awesome extra content by becoming a patron go to patriot dot com slash new media lab and choose your ear, please rate and review this show on whatever service. You subscribe to podcasts on it really helps others find the shop and tells me if you like what I'm doing here, you can find new media lab on items goo. 00:26:27 Podcasts Stitcher Spotify tune in radio and hopefully anywhere else that distributes podcasts. If you can't find us, let me know. And I'll rectify the situation all this. Plus more lanes will be in the show notes and on our website. So don't worry if you didn't have a pen to write it all down and thanks again today. Jackson for helping me with my thesis. Prevent such a fantastic guest. That's it for this week everyone. The next episode will drop next Tuesday until then get out there and create something.  

In this episode we will discuss Trigeminal Neuralgia with Pamela from British Columbia, Canada.  This painful and rare condition has no cure but Pam gives us tips on dealing with severe facial pain. Transcript: s3e1 trigeminal neuralgia.mp3   Lita [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to another episode of podcastDX. The show that brings you interviews with people just like you whose lives were forever changed by a medical diagnosis. I'm Lita and one of our co-hosts. Ron is not with us today. Jean [00:00:22] And I'm Jean Marie. Lita [00:00:23] Collectively we are the hosts of podcastDX on today's show we are speaking with Pamela. Pamela is joining us once again from Victoria British Columbia in Canada. Jean [00:00:35] And we actually had the honor of speaking with Pamela last week regarding fibromyalgia this week. Pamela is here to tell us all about her experience with the trigeminal neuralgia. Lita [00:00:45] Well ok that's a mouth full. (Laughter) In case you missed last week's episode Pamela is happily married to her amazing husband Ray and they're the proud parents of two grown kids with three wonderful grandsons. Pamela worked for years whilst battling with pain from fibromyalgia and osteo arthritis while employed as an administrative specialist. She was also a certified event planner with her career behind her now and she is on long term disability. She is now a blogger. I've always wanted to blog. I'm not into blogging but maybe you can get me going on it (laughter) she really, I need to know. She writes about chronic pain chronic fatigue fibromyalgia an invisible illness in addition to blogging. Pamela is an active volunteer with the patient volunteer network or PVN in British Columbia. Outside of the PVN she has also done volunteer work for Island health as a patient advisor. She was on the advisory committee for opioid guidelines in Canada and volunteered this summer with the downtown Victoria Business Association Buskers Festival. Jean [00:01:56] Hello again Pamela and I, might I say that I'm just exhausted hearing about how much you do. Welcome back. Lita [00:02:03] Yes. Pamela [00:02:04] Thanks so much for having me back again. Lita [00:02:07] Pamela I was reading over the data sheets for the conditions that have placed you on the long term disability list. And I would venture to say that you have your plate full. We have.... Pamela [00:02:18] I do. Lita [00:02:19] ...(laughter). Jean [00:02:20] Yeah. Lita [00:02:21] ...Separated the two major conditions into the two separate episodes. We covered fibromyalgia last week and that leaves this week with trigeminal neuralgia. First to give our listeners an idea of exactly what we're talking about what is trigeminal neuralgia. Pamela [00:02:37] Trigeminal neuralgia is a chronic pain condition it involves the areas inerverated by the 5th cranial nerve so the area of the body involved is the face it can cause severe pain even when doing simple things like brushing your teeth shaving putting on makeup touching your face eating drinking speaking or even when something as simple as a breeze whispers across the face. Jean [00:03:04] Oh Pamela you mentioned the fifth cranial nerve and what is that exactly. Pamela [00:03:12] OK so the fifth cranial nerve is one of the most widely distributed nerves in the head. Jean [00:03:17] OK. Pamela [00:03:17] So the classic type of trigeminal neuralgia disorder called Type 1 or TM1 causes extreme sporadic sudden burning or shock like pain which may last from a few seconds to as long as two minutes per episode. Lita [00:03:32] mm mm. Jean [00:03:33] oh God. Pamela [00:03:33] And episodes can often come in a series of attacks that lasts for several hours. Jean [00:03:38] ohh. Pamela [00:03:38] But I have something called atypical TM. Jean [00:03:41] ok. Pamela [00:03:41] Which is when the pain comes in a long lasting wave... Jean [00:03:44] ohhh. Pamela [00:03:45] ...Instead of a short burst. So for me no but for me it's like a hundred little cameras there hitting the same area of my face... Lita [00:03:52] Oh my gosh. Pamela [00:03:53] ...For hour after hour. Lita [00:03:54] oh my God. Pamela [00:03:55]  my episodes tend to last for eight to 12 hours at a time. Lita [00:04:00] Oh. Pamela [00:04:00] They start just under my right cheekbone and then it spreads first to my sinus cavity then down towards my jaw. And I often feel spasms in my esophagus as well. Jean [00:04:11] Oh my gosh. Lita [00:04:12] Wow. Pamela [00:04:14] Yeah. Lita [00:04:14] Wow. Pamela [00:04:15] Not fun. Lita & Jean [00:04:15] No. Jean [00:04:16] Wow. Lita [00:04:17] Wow. I mean my mouth hurts just. Pamela [00:04:20] yeah. Lita [00:04:20] Listening to you. Jean [00:04:21] That's that's awful. Pamela [00:04:22] Mmhmmm Lita [00:04:23] Pamela what causes Trigeminal neuralgia. Jean [00:04:25] And how can we avoid it. Lita [00:04:27] Yeah. Pamela [00:04:27] Well there's actually several possible causes for trigeminal neuralgia. So it sometimes begins as the result of the nerve sheath being too close to a blood vessel in the neck area where it exits the brain stem. Jean [00:04:42] ok. Pamela [00:04:42] In other cases it can be caused by things like multiple sclerosis. Lita [00:04:46] Which also takes away the sheath, right. Pamela [00:04:48] Yeah exactly. Another reason for this condition can be a tumor pressing on the nerve or it might be the result of the wearing down of the sheath of the covering on the nerve. It could be the result of physical damage to the trigeminal nerve perhaps from the sinus surgery or an oral surgery or stroke or other facial trauma. Jean [00:05:10] ok.   Pamela [00:05:10] In my case we suspect that the nerve is rubbing against something based on the MRI scan that I had done. Jean [00:05:17] OK. Lita [00:05:18] Wow can you tell us. I mean you know obviously the pain right. Is that what led you to to find out what this diagnosis would be. Pamela [00:05:27] Yeah. The reason I was sought treatment was because I was suddenly having these pain episodes in my face. And after the first one or two I realized they weren't just sinus infections because I wasn't showing any other symptoms that you would typically get with an infection. Lita [00:05:42] ok. Pamela [00:05:43] So I saw my doctor and I described the pain. And I was diagnosed TM based on the description. And then when I was first put on medication it stopped the episodes from happening and that's when we knew that we'd made the right diagnosis. Lita [00:05:56] OK. Is it just a nerve pain type of a medication then. Pamela [00:06:01] Yeah. That's what we started with. One of the first drugs that they prescribed to. Yes. Lita [00:06:06] OK. Well while reading about this week's topic I read that a person with trigeminal neuralgia might feel as if they had an abscess tooth or like you were saying a sinus infection. And since it can affect the jaw area it seems like that could make it a difficult condition to diagnose. I mean like is it a tooth is it. Jean [00:06:27] Sinuses. Lita [00:06:28] Sinuses. Is it Is it the gum you know. So was it it was not that difficult for you to get the diagnosis though huh. Pamela [00:06:36] No like I said just describing the pains my doctor and how it flared into my sinuses first and then into my jaw helped him to realize that it wasn't an abscess in the jaw area. Lita [00:06:48] Yeah actually you know what about a heart attack. Jean [00:06:50] Yeah I'm you know yeah. You could have jaw pain. Lita [00:06:52] You could have had jaw pain with a heart attack. Jean [00:06:53] Sure. Lita [00:06:54] There's a lot of things that. Jean [00:06:55] Yeah. Lita [00:06:56] They could have worried about. Jean [00:06:57] well, yeah. Lita [00:06:57] I'm glad the doctor thought about it right away. Jean [00:06:59] you've had, Yeah. You had someone that really... Pamela [00:07:01] Yeah. Jean [00:07:01] ...understood what it was. Lita [00:07:01] understood it right. Jean [00:07:02] Yeah. And I understand that there are several tests that can be done to help determine the extent of the terminal neuralgia. Can you tell us a little bit more about this testing. Pamela [00:07:11] Yeah. So in most cases the doctors start by asking questions about your symptoms and ask about your medical history. Then they usually perform a physical examination of the head in the neck areas including the ears the mouth the teeth and the temporal mandibular joint with the TMJ. Jean [00:07:31] Right. Pamela [00:07:31] And other disorders that may cause facial pain and mimic TM type pain. They'll ask questions about that. So these conditions need to be ruled out first before a definitive diagnosis was made. And then often what they'll do is they'll order a magnetic resonance imaging an MRI scan. Jean [00:07:53] Ok. Pamela [00:07:53] They do that to rule out the presence of a brain tumor or multiple sclerosis or other causes. Jean [00:08:00] ok. Pamela [00:08:00] And the scans can also determine whether or not a blood vessel is pressing on the nerves. And so that's what my doctor did was he ordered the MRI for me and that's where we could see how the nerve was being compressed. Lita [00:08:12] OK. Wow that's quite a few tests. I know that when we were talking last week you said that during a procedure. Jean [00:08:21] Something was leaning on a nerve. Lita [00:08:22] Something was leaning on a nerve. Now could that have caused this. Pamela [00:08:26] Yeah. Oh yeah. They they could see that the blood vessel is pressing against the nerve. Jean [00:08:34] OK. Lita [00:08:34] So it wasn't something that the doctor was leaning against. It's right now it's just a blood vessel. That’s pressing because I'm just saying like what made what made the blood vessel all of a sudden press against the nerve. Pamela [00:08:44] You see they're not really sure. Lita [00:08:46] OK . Pamela [00:08:47] They're not really sure what's what's causing it to do that. And actually until I undergo you know some type of surgery they wouldn't be able to say for certain until that happens. Lita [00:08:59] ok When I don't know if I asked when did this problem start compared to the fibromyalgia. Pamela [00:09:05] I've had the TM for probably about 14 years now. Jean [00:09:10] oh my gosh. Pamela [00:09:10] And I didn't realize that I had it in the beginning simply because I thought it was a sinus infection. Lita [00:09:18] OK. Pamela [00:09:19] When I first had it and the episodes were really infrequent in the beginning so I just brushed it off. So when I started having them on a much more frequent basis then I knew that there was a problem. And that's when I went to the doctor. Lita [00:09:33] got it. Pamela [00:09:33] So I would say 14 years in total. But you know on a more frequent basis probably over the last four years. Lita [00:09:41] OK. Jean [00:09:42] ok And  Pamela you said that some medica.. Medications have helped a bit. Are there any other treatments available for patients with trigeminal neuralgia. Pamela [00:09:50] Yeah. There are treatments for trigeminal neuralgia which can help to reduce pain and improve quality of life. So what they normally do is they start off with a medication called carbamazepine which is also known as Tegretol. That's the first drug of choice. And if that doesn't work or if it stops working as it did in my case the other drugs that they use are called lamatrine gabapentin and pregablin and then sometimes use Baclofen which is a muscle relaxant. And then I also took a drug called topiramate. Lita [00:10:26] topiramate. Pamela [00:10:26] which I don't take right now. Lita [00:10:28] Yeah. Pamela [00:10:28] Yeah. It's an anticonvulsant and that worked for me for a long time actually for almost two years. But it has stopped working and I am now at a point where I am having flare ups about once a week. Lita & Jean [00:10:44] ohh. Pamela [00:10:44] So yeah. And so at this point unfortunately I have no other drug options left. I even tried botox botox is often used as a last resort where they inject botox along the hairline not into the actual area where you have the infection but they do it along the hairline and that's done to try and paralyze the muscles that are flaring up from, from the nerve. But that was unsuccessful for me as well. So now the only option left for me is a surgical option. Jean [00:11:17] Oh wow that's Yeah. You can't go back to a medication like if you're on a medication for sometime and it stops working. Pamela [00:11:24] There's. Yeah. There is once medication stopped working that stops working and you can't go back to the old again. They just. They just don't work again. Jean [00:11:35] Okay. Okay. And Pamela I really think we should let our listeners know that this is a disorder which is considered to be one of the most painful human conditions. Lita [00:11:45] Yes. Jean [00:11:46] And just reading that statement makes me really cringe. In your opinion how bad would you say the pain is. Pamela [00:11:54] Well the nickname of this condition is the suicide disease. When I'm in a full TM flare up I'll be honest I want to claw my face off. The pain is a 15 out of 10. It is absolutely unrelenting. And that's the worst of it. If I knew I was going to get relief in just a short period of time it would be easier to bear. But when I get the telltale pulse under my cheekbone that a flare is coming up. I know that I'm in for 12 hours of agony. It's the most painful thing that I have ever experienced. Jean [00:12:30] I'm so sorry. Lita [00:12:31] Oh goodness gracious. Jean [00:12:33] Yeah that’s. Lita [00:12:33] Pam. And too bad they can't have like. I know that this... Pamela [00:12:37] There's. Lita [00:12:37] ...sounds bad, like put you to sleep. You know like put you in a semi coma. Knock you, you know go in for a shot. You know like you you go in for this. Jean [00:12:44] Imitrex. Lita [00:12:46] no not Imitrex to get the sleep that I went in for the shots. Jean [00:12:49] Oh yeah. Pamela [00:12:49] Yeah there's times that I've I've debated going into the emergency room to see if there's anything that they can do to help me. Jean [00:12:58] Right. Pamela [00:12:58] And I've gone once or twice and I've said to them I am in the middle of a TM flare up and I just want something to break the cycle of pain. Lita [00:13:07] yeah. Jean [00:13:07] Right Pamela [00:13:07] . And even when they've given me something it hasn't always worked. Lita [00:13:13] The Twilight that's what I'm thinking. Jean [00:13:15]  the twilight sleep yeah. Lita [00:13:16] The twilight You know like when they put you out temporarily while they're doing your procedure. Jean [00:13:21] right. Lita [00:13:21] I wonder if. Have you tried it would that break it. I know, you know they have that done the dentist's office. Pamela [00:13:26] No They won't actually do something like that. But that's what they'll do is they'll give me a shot. I'm allergic to morphine. Lita [00:13:33] Yes.so am I. Pamela [00:13:34] The best that they'll do is they'll give me a shot of fentanyl. Lita [00:13:36] . Right. Pamela [00:13:37] But even Fentanyl doesn't... Lita [00:13:38] doesn't touch. Pamela [00:13:40] ...touch the pain. Lita [00:13:40] Doesn't touch it. Pamela [00:13:41] No. Jean [00:13:41] Wow. Pamela [00:13:42] Well I know that I'm going to. And actually I have to be honest with you as we're talking I can feel a tiny pulse in my cheekbone that there's going to be flare ups coming up at some point. Jean [00:13:53] I'm so sorry. Pamela [00:13:53]  in probably the next few hours. (laughter) Lita [00:13:56] Oh man. Does meditation. Does that help. Pamela [00:14:00] Nothing. Jean [00:14:00] It sounds like it's like asking someone who is in labor. "Oh have you tried this medication". Lita [00:14:03] No no. I'm thinking before it happens. Pamela [00:14:04] No Lita [00:14:05] I'm just thinking. Jean [00:14:06] Oh. Lita [00:14:06] I'm thinking before it happens. Jean [00:14:06] ok ok.  Pamela [00:14:07] nope. Lita [00:14:07] yeah. I mean yeah I remember when I was first pregnant with this one over here. Right. Jean [00:14:12] Yeah. I don't remember. Lita [00:14:14] No she doesn't remember it but I remember this. And I do have Alzheimer's and I don't remember a lot of things but I remember that when I was in labor my husband at the time pulled out a deck of cards and said "Would you like to play cards." Jean [00:14:27] You know what's really funny. I remember when my sister was in labor and her husband pulled out a deck of cards. Lita [00:14:33] What is with these guys. Jean [00:14:34] I don't know but. Pamela [00:14:35] I don't even know. (laughter). Lita [00:14:36] Oh yeah. I mean who the heck wants to play cards when you're in that much pain. Pamela [00:14:42] It's not really a distraction is it. Lita [00:14:44] No it's not. I wanted to take that deck of cards and. Jean [00:14:48] OK. Lita [00:14:49] ok. Jean [00:14:49] and back to the show. Pamela [00:14:49] Put the cards there (laughter) Lita [00:14:55] (laughter) Well how has this particular disorder affected your family or friends or your interactions with them. Pamela [00:15:01] Well when I'm in the flare I can't do anything. I can't Talk. I can't be around anyone. Lita [00:15:06] sure. Pamela [00:15:06] Everyone. I mean I'm just writhing in pain. I don't want to be touched or talked to. So any contact with my husband is out and he's he's really good. He's really understanding about this. And you know he just makes himself scarce and I just go to the bedroom in the dark and just cry. Lita [00:15:23] So it's kind of like a migraine. Jean [00:15:24] It is yeah Lita [00:15:25] Yeah a little bit but then. Pamela [00:15:26] Yeah I just. Lita [00:15:27] But different Yeah. Pamela [00:15:28] I want to isolate myself. Lita [00:15:29] Right. Jean [00:15:29] Sure Pamela [00:15:30] I just want to isolate myself my attacks are becoming so more frequent that it really interferes with my life. Lita [00:15:36] Sure. Pamela [00:15:36] I mean you know I don't want to socialize I don't want to be around anyone. Lita [00:15:41] cause You don't know if it's going to happen when you're out. Pamela [00:15:42] I don't want to do anything.... Jean [00:15:43] Right. Pamela [00:15:44] Well and that's the other thing I never know when a flare is going to happen. I don't know if it's going to happen when I'm out and if I am out I just want to get home as quickly as possible so it's ruined a lot of plans.... Lita [00:15:56] Right. Right Pamela [00:15:57] ...as well. Jean [00:15:57] Sorry. Lita [00:15:58] Well I hope the. I hope the surgery option will work for you. Pamela [00:16:03] Well I'm crossing my fingers. I do have an appointment with the neurosurgeon in April so. Jean [00:16:09] oh ok good. Pamela [00:16:09] I think well we'll talk about that in a few months. Lita [00:16:11] Yes we will. Yes. We'll have to get you back out here in May. Jean [00:16:14]  right. Lita [00:16:14] We'll be praying for you in the meantime. Jean [00:16:16] Yes. Are there any specific support groups for patients with terminal neurologic it sounds like. Lita [00:16:22] They should. Jean [00:16:23] The only person that can truly understand this is someone else that has the same condition. Lita [00:16:27] Yes. Pamela [00:16:28] Yes there are support groups available and you can certainly look online to find one suitable for you. Jean [00:16:35] ok. Pamela [00:16:35] In the States there's the American Association of neuromuscular and electro diagnostic medicine which offers information and assistance. Lita [00:16:44] I'll put that on the web site. Pamela [00:16:44] And they can be found, yep, It'll be on the website. They can be found at AANEM dot org. Lita [00:16:50] OK. Jean [00:16:50] OK. Pamela [00:16:51] And in Canada there's the tri geminal neuralgia Association of Canada. They're known as TNAC and they can be found at T N A C dot org... Lita [00:17:02] OK I will put it on our website. Yeah I didn't know if I told you but.... Pamela [00:17:06] ... but those are. Lita [00:17:06]  yeah. We. We build web pages for you and for your particular diagnosis. on our Web site. Pamela [00:17:13] oh that's wonderful. Lita [00:17:13] So that'll be on there forever. Pamela [00:17:15] so people can find that information. Lita [00:17:16] Yeah. Pamela [00:17:16] That's great. Lita [00:17:17] We put links in resources so that people can have a one shop stop to find out more about it. Pamela [00:17:23] Yeah. That's wonderful because I mean people you know the support is just immense that you know you can connect with people who are going through the same thing and like you said nobody knows what it's like except somebody who experiences it . And so you know I think it's really important that people know that there are national associations available out there for us. Lita [00:17:46] That's good. And how about on Facebook. Are there those private groups. Pamela [00:17:50] I am not sure about Facebook, there's probably lots. Lita [00:17:54] ok. Pamela [00:17:54] Of private groups that you can look for on Facebook. Lita [00:17:56] OK. Because I know that I join a bunch of them just so that I can glean information so that I can have a little bit better idea when I'm talking to our guest and I can read all kinds of you know interactions between patients that have these different issues and you know I had this or yes we have that and oh my god do you remember when this oh yeah yeah. Jean [00:18:15] and have you tried this. Lita [00:18:17] Yes. And all kinds of handsome tips. I love those. Jean [00:18:20] right. Lita [00:18:20] Well yeah obviously we found out that this problem does not go away on its own and it can get worse over time. And you are looking for possible surgery as a cure in the future. Pamela [00:18:35] That's right. Lita [00:18:36] Have you have you been told to watch for any other symptoms or is it just an increase in the severity. Pamela [00:18:42] It's really just an increase in the severity and the frequency that I have the flare ups and stuff. Lita [00:18:48] OK. Pamela [00:18:49] Some people do achieve remission. Some people have flare ups that go away. Lita [00:18:54] Oh good. Pamela [00:18:55] And they achieve remission so that there is encouraging news. Some people like myself run out of options and need to look for treatments beyond medication. Lita [00:19:04] OK. Jean [00:19:05] OK. And as we had mentioned earlier that there may be surgical procedures to help alleviate some of the pain caused by trigeminal neuralgia. And like you said your schedule coming up. Lita [00:19:18] in April Right. Jean [00:19:18] And that's umm. Pamela [00:19:20] That's right. Pamela [00:19:20] So I have an appointment on April 30th to see a neurosurgeon and we're going to be talking about a brain surgery called Microvascular decompression. Lita & Jean [00:19:30] OK. Pamela [00:19:30] So what that means is the surgeon will make a circular incision behind my right ear and remove that part of my scalp and then using small tools. He'll find the trigeminal nerve and then place a small Teflon sponge between the nerve and whatever. Lita & Jean [00:19:46] Oh wow. Pamela [00:19:47] Is pressing which is probably another nerve or you know a tendon or whatever is in there but whatever's causing the irritation he'll place the Teflon sponge between the two. Jean [00:20:01] Ok. Pamela [00:20:01] And once that's done the bone that was cut away will be. Covered with a titanium plate instead. And then the muscles in the skin are all sewn up again and I'll spend one night in the ICU. And then one or two nights in the hospital and then home to recover. Lita [00:20:17] Ok Pamela [00:20:17] So there's an excellent success rate with this particular surgery. And the reason I've chosen this surgery is because it has the lowest rate of causing facial numbness as well. There are other surgeries including one called the sensory rhizotomy which is the irreversible cutting of the trigeminal nerve root at its connection to the brain stem. Jean [00:20:41] Ok. Pamela [00:20:41] There's Gamma Knife radio surgery which is a non-invasive outpatient procedure that uses highly focused radiation beams and it destroys some of the trigeminal nerve root fibres that produce pain and then there's peripheral peripheral neurectomy which is where a nerve branch is cut. Lita [00:20:59] Well you got to become a. Pamela [00:21:00] . Yeah right. Lita [00:21:01] You're becoming quite good with the medical terminology. Pamela [00:21:04] I really am I. Lita [00:21:05] (laughter) Pamela [00:21:06] But all three of those surgeries carries a side effect of facial numbness and some to a really high degree. And I don't want that as a side effect. Jean [00:21:16] Sure. Pamela [00:21:18] I researched all four of these different surgeries very carefully and that's just not a side effect that I'm willing to put up with. Lita [00:21:27] Sure sure. Jean [00:21:28] Sure. Yeah. Lita [00:21:29] Well we're not. When your husband wants to give you a kiss you'd like to know if he's close. Pamela [00:21:34] Well exactly. You know and it sounds kind of funny to say it but there's a lot to be said for that sensation of touch. Lita [00:21:42] Right. Jean [00:21:42] Of course Pamela [00:21:42] I'm not willing to give that up. Lita [00:21:44] Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you have any additional tips hints or helpful advice for listeners. Pamela [00:21:50] Well my main advice is just to see your doctor as soon as possible if you're experiencing any type of facial pain. The sooner you get it diagnose the better. And if it is trigeminal neuralgia there's help available. Find a good support group. Facebook has groups available to help. And most importantly just know that you're not alone. There are lots of other people out there who are suffering so you know don't feel that you're the only one that's out there. Jean [00:22:18] Well thank you Pamela. And how can our listeners learn more about you and trigeminal neuralgia. Pamela [00:22:26] I blog at Pamela Justin dot com and I have a few posts about my TM. So just do a search on my Web site to find them and hopefully you'll get some help from reading those posts. Lita [00:22:37] OK. And we'll put a link at our Web site so that they can find you. Well thank you Pamela... Pamela [00:22:42] absolutely. Lita [00:22:42] ...Once again for joining us. This has been wonderful. Pamela [00:22:44] Oh it was a delight to be here again. Thank you so much for having me. Lita [00:22:48] You're welcome. And we will be contacting you again in May to find out the rest of the story. Jean [00:22:53] Yeah see how everything in April went. Pamela [00:22:54]  Wonderful I'll certainly be happy to let you know what the surgeon has to say. Lita [00:22:59] Great. Jean [00:22:59] great. Lita [00:22:59] . And for our listeners if you have any questions or comments related to today's show you can contact us at podcast D X at yahoo dot com through our Web site podcast D X dot com on Facebook Twitter Pinterest or Instagram. Jean [00:23:15] And if you like today's episode tell a friend as always please keep in mind that this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regime never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking because of something you have heard on this podcast. Lita [00:23:41] Until next week.  

Introduction Universal Windows Podcast – Episode 94 You can enjoy us on Spotify and iHeartRadio now – great for streaming! Special Guest Peter Henry Word of the Week Enjoy a sip of your favourite beverage each time either of us says "Elf". News of the Week  Microsoft starts selling Two Surface Go variants $499 - 4 GB and 128 SSD $679 - LTE Windows 10 1809 Still Broken iCloud Mapped Drives AMD Trend Windows on Arm Update New ARM Devices from Lenovo and Samsung are shipping with 1803 Windows 10: Now it's tap or look to sign in to Outlook, Office 365, OneDrive, Skype Killer AI robots must be outlawed, says UN chief Japan's new cybersecurity minister admits he's never used a computer Brad Sams is releasing a new book – we are hoping to have Brad on as a guest Product Reviews With Peter https://www.kingston.com/en/wireless/wireless_readers/mlwg3 Screen protectors for your phone - Tempered Glass Wired Mice - Microsoft Classic IntelliMouse Fossil Gen 3 Sport Smartwatch Asus Transformer Mini Sound goes away after keyboard closing Netgear Nighthawk X6 Montreal Canadian USB Speaker Logitech 490 Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 Outro Call for your help with the podcast, please… Follow and Re-tweet @SurfaceSmiths Listen www.SurfaceSmiths.com Email Podcast@SurfaceSmiths.com Whisky of the Week Glen Brenton   Episode 094 - The Peter Principle - Transcript courtesy of WIT.AI Windows Microsoft MVP Insider Surface Phone 2018, The Surface Smiths Podcast Universal Windows Podcast http://surfacesmiths.com News and Special Guest Peter Henry with some Christmas gift ideas and reviews   Transcript [0:00] Hello I'm Cortana welcome to the universal windows podcast the show about everything window. Such a surface Xbox phone and the windows Insider program. Here are your host the surface schmidt. My name is David Smith and I'm calling Smith and today we have a special guest assets Peter Henry to want to start that again David why cuz you lift no, now we don't break for that deal episode 94 and welcome Peter. Thank you very much theater eight system anonymous think sure unless he wants to tell us his last name. Google with H4 now that's fine alright Peter Henry exactly exactly alright so ups we got a delayed show for you it's after this the wednesday before american thanksgiving so lots of things going on sale black friday cyber monday coming in with a lot of products to talk about. Before we do that we've got some housekeeping hey guys what about the word of the week. [1:10] Blue that are guest choose the where the week and or do i use the word sure why not let's pick considering we've got a lot of snow outside and it's a little bit before christmas let's pick al's call Zoe use that word a lot normally are podcast so that should work out well I'm sure we'll be able to work that in it Peter you're a long time listener friend of the show we've talked about you before you've been on the show before you. [1:37] You stay in touch so your Alpha superfan, well thank you very much yeah i try and listen you guys and i get some some inside information about where microsoft is going where they from the little bit of where they come from and some deep insights of some cool information that I wouldn't get out on out on the the internet on blogs or an in trade rags and stuff like that. It did I see you you do not have a Windows phone, so i figure the loss of a three of us to give up on yeah that was a sore point i was doing some windows phone development there for a little while and i love the phone and lives in a paid for one of your apps, yes thank you very much i camera what was that was the but yeah remember when Windows Phone Directory made by Nokia in Finland. Set the receipt with the finnish national costume look like no now you should google that are being that. Cuz it really looks like what else would wear it really does oh I see I see. [3:02] Lottery for the week whenever we say the week you can take a drink of your favorite beverage. If you're driving and if the officer pulls you over you can tell if you heard the word the weekend you had to. I'll call the police officer and elf they don't like that very much okay that's not that's true and alright so we're gonna do, go on at the show and I will come back to some of the stuff that you wanted to talk about specifically I feel free to jump in anytime if we're talking gives a hand signal whenever jump in lots to talk about we're going to great start with our typical. [3:41] Cysts you story of the week on the history of the and we called it just so we don't have a super long episode think we're going to start with David doing to start with v. Surface news will Microsoft to new versions of the surface go one is the LTE version and. Priest self-explanatory it comes with a healthy and also come with those in a sixty is it a four gig at eight gig memory is it is it is a smaller one which is odd yeah so it's not that is a yet by getting out to eat have to get something else up if you were looking for the full spec apparently and then they brought up one that they originally were selling just at Costco but now it's kind of a hybrid between the low end in the high-end so it has, 4 gigs of memory at but has a faster processor I think in the faster disk space and 128. So anyhow I kind of. [4:46] That what they should if it is one of the dis a battery and but anyhow well i thought the battery so much has the combination of battery, and until process about the battery it's so much better than what it was made by elves they would probably work better. Well the hand thing you get used to but the battery only lasts him I'd say 2 hours most so really who hours. Has us pc and has microsoft on the cake but so that, that later on what I'm going to buy and maybe that's going to convince me not as far as you're concerned. I should buy it it's definitely you know what I'd rather by anyways before we live on. [5:38] Over was full of issues for microsoft release seeing. Nine or the fall release of windows ten, kind of issues they pulled it back and release of the play back well guess what they've re released again it's available in the wild but it still pro can. So again I think for Microsoft that's a, six at so eighty nine and icloud do not play nice map drives are broken in md processors have issues trend micro anti malware has issues still all kinds of issues and eighteen o nine at even though Microsoft that there's going to be some quality. Updates for you think about that Peter when I'm doing my normal day-to-day stuff at work or if I'm playing around at home, I just really using visual studio and Chrome, and it's for the most part it seems to be okay but I guess the situations that you've brought up with regards to specific Cloud scenarios or specific CPUs, thank, at work and at home and it seems to be working pretty fine for me I thought that's what the flighting was doing and that's what the controlled-release Cycles were doing based on the Insiders. [7:02] Field testing I'm so maybe the inside is not doing their job so they should be fired unrelated news Dona sarkar is. [7:11] It is a focus at Focus APA Cosmopolitan magazine article okay there we go. A little bit of Safeway we talked about this earlier windows on arm update lots of news in the windows on arm plus space first off, chris off the is supporting native apps for your visual studio user there's now an ability to compiled directly for windows ten on arm. Don't have to use the emulation, how is just for store apps this is for sixteen gb thirty two bit or sixty four bit apps well that's really good question we should take a look at that but, I read the article I couldn't figure it out so I figured that the armpits are 64-bit they are it's just the emulation is 32 bit. [8:01] I ever win thirty two apps so does that mean that the apps are gonna run slower on a sixty four bit. Machine which apps any of the 32-bit apps. Yeah so yes they will definitely stop to say what happens when you virtualize a nap and I'm elated that probably doesn't run quick yeah but how do you how do you bench Market because you're running on Hardware was never designed to run on, you know what I was wondering about the surface cup its performance is fine. And this is not the most powerful computer in the world that's right right so I'm just saying that. We don't really need a whole lot of power I mean yeah so some app run slower if you can rent underarm but you know you're ready. So if you need that much power the chances are you're gonna be getting visual by some healthy right last house list list quickly you're right now we're talking about were talking about was and i'm talking about the snap dragon he thirty five make forty fives. Sony 850 sorry 835 850s the 1000 coming at least or chips that run a 2.9 gigahertz other fairly quick or multi-core. [9:12] But how do you bench a Teddy to a fair Benchmark between an app running on arm versus an app running on arm emulated I don't think versus until proc I don't think it's a fair comparison it's just it's a convenient it's not why you should be running that app if you need to live in that up all the time it's at a transitional phase as your getting rid of a legacy app so what's going on in windows are native apps in Chrome so Google and Microsoft are working on a native Chrome browser for windows on arm. [9:44] Two new devices one from Lenovo one from Samsung. And December 2nd for the Samsung and not sure when the Lenovo shipping but these are running the latest 8:50. [9:57] Which is got a lot more power a lot more speed the original Windows alarm devices. They were slow even then like playing with him for 5 minutes every around anymore. [10:13] The white with you of this lottery designer and in what i understood but the way in the first round of the of the surfaces oh you mean like the original surface without with the arm checked with the actor that didn't really work out there and then mop and then he bought Nokia which runs on arm so yeah an hour to bring it back the first one i love mine i had when i saw her and and and it was it was absolutely one of my apps the bad the battery life on them was incredibly the apps it was the store apps, I couldn't install stuff okay that's a confused I was actually in a Microsoft store right doing doing a demo was confused and people come in, our tv i can't install this i cancel like nine so i may say well that you but windows are teak this app oneself the customers that didn't understand i think i'm windows of a lease they weren't doing a good enough job of marketing that of getting people to understand all, explain that my kids got it first got it and this is just one of those things okay, I'm buying an iPad equivalent I've got the increase battery life I've got the instant on these are wonderful thing average consumer thinks by the Windows device. They don't understand the different versions of thought they were getting a laptop that they could just decide on everything they want. [11:36] Yeah and so things that you should be able to run. You couldn't and they were just confused but let's move on, the new devices from 101 Samsung so maybe I should look at one of those but here's the problem member we said 1809 is broken so, villanova on samsung devices to both shipping with windows ten eighteen or three. The to mail ship with the surface scope to shift with eighteen of three understood welsh but the surface will ship in the summer. Is a shipping in happen of embers of this problem and you know three was never certified to stop dragging eight fifty. Microsoft never tested it but they never certified it so it was certified as a Snapdragon 835. [12:19] So they're running an OS I was never tested on the hardware. So that's a bit of a pickle for them isn't it it is so there when you open this up under Christmas tree on Christmas morning the first thing it's going to want to do is doing update on you. There's there's an interesting user experience that's going to happen no matter what what you buy even even Apple and Android never updates but I guess that's a no. They certified in for that one device on 1803. [12:54] And so anyways so it's still the thought this. All windows ten is broken thing is is really biting. [13:03] Maybe they need elves doing software testing. Well they might have smaller issues alright so what was that movie where. [13:17] Bob Newhart was an elf. [13:20] It's not elf. Is there dams. Okay alright. [13:39] On to Microsoft doing more to get away from passwords. [13:44] Two ft multi factor authentication windows hollow bio matrix facial recognition of yours and interesting thing initially I'm a little hesitant to word that I kind of like having my password okay fine I like having your password too and I'm giving it out cuz it is part of my last name so I know relatively newish laptop, there's a yellow sticker on the front and on the back hot for cover the camera thing i do the same thing my cover i like I look like Dave I cover my camera, so you're so you're hello hello really work out so well, hope it does actually so what it does so you got a picture of the tape. [14:38] Did they responsible camera somebody pull up the regular camera put in reverse. [14:44] Did they finally figure out how to the problem with having putting sticking a really good quality picture in front of the camera. [14:54] Nice yellow yet and yet it logs me in even twins cancel hello because special IR camera which is this one here. [15:07] Good making sb but it's sometimes happens plus the iron cameras the second hole on the right. [15:12] So it's the whole on the right that the visual camera is the one in the middle, so the only thing you're stopping is the visual camera not the e-signature I figured this out by mistake, see you're saying the twins don't have a different heat signature on their face says of the blood vessel pattern and things like that. Yeah go back to that demo Montreal remember. [15:35] That is perfectly anybody but so any yeah so i'm gonna the i'm done some work around that so yeah so but let's go back to the answer adding no password required for outlook office three sixty-five when driving skype to more and more. Services you can use without entering a password how does that work well. I understand but if you're using Office 365 using live or Hotmail sure it's over the internet and you don't have a password right how do you log it how do you. Air quotes login with that with your username so first off you're going to end, you need to have windows ten running on a device with two pm. TPM trusted platform module so it's a quote-unquote air quotes here unhackable. [16:31] Piece of Hardware which stores keys on the device. TPM 2.0 which most business class devices have and use. Is need to be in place i believe the key need you if you if i've not pas about that but anyways what does it is. Stores the credential hashes in there okay then it uses that to pass along. Microsoft's confident that no glue it is going to be. Reproducible afterwards just the hash right if you can reverse it from the hash the whole point the hatches a tard reverse it on and you would do that anyway fit after i guess. Doesn't were awesome but the same would be true if you done that that the password was still pass the same. It started to Hash it and then some hash right so or get them get a no hot again is that really a token able to get some piano hot verification there so. It's not the kind of thing that you can leave lying around like on a sticky note. [17:48] Like your face is on the sticky note mac that might be there for a while and your heat signature is not one of mine. I thought I had password take to the bar for some of your government clients how how receptive are they. So I've done a lot of work for it they're there right now they're still focused on getting Windows 10 lock the door, the parody solution of a lost opportunity they're not make Windows 10 look like Windows 7 just waking up Windows 7 they're not really looking at and what they do. Yeah I try but okay so, just wanted to have that out there passwords I don't use passwords that often anymore and I think they're going to be less and less services at um there's so many password. [18:43] Dealing attempts happening it's a great way to Yo password databases and things like that if you can minimize that Force multi-factor authentication to make it easy, i think people will be better off from one term okay but i think it's time to move away from microsoft news that's the high right david you to take this one of july the do that when i any to can i want that's what alright so. The UN Chief says the killer AI robots must be outlawed what do you think about that. [19:13] I don't think you should kill did I don't think you should tell her I am broke I think they should be encouraged the problem personally I wouldn't care if I was killed by a robot or a person if I'm killed. There's that sure what you'd rather be killed by a person that a robot. [19:33] I'm just I guess I'm just more questioning the fact that we have to get a law for this I know so who is the killer AI robots. [19:44] Of months and the government's fault lost like this now so. [19:51] Well it depends on weather of course of course this is the United Nations so, Canada General Secretary Antonio guterres has warned about the weaponization of AI too serious danger but I think the weaponization of anything is a danger right exactly. Let me have a vote today no that was for their what they should put the postal workers back to vote. Talk about that after the postal strike in Canada so I think we probably have less. A lot of a lot of troops or less soldiers were hurt from Friendly Fire somebody missed somebody shot at the wrong hell or launched launched an airstrike the wrong place I think more surgery Soldier wouldn't be there. [20:59] And will that stop driving card is not a police officer after or yeah, it's just like self-driving cars people are afraid to self-driving cars but of a millions and millions of miles driven they have far less toxic to human drivers and how many how many people have been shot how many people how many people have been shot, not self-driving car says 0 right into the back of fire trucks on the highway the problem with the self-driving cars is their algorithms are chosen specifically to ignore certain piece of information course one of the thing after the after the the accident that killed one of the drivers of going through a fire truck stopped on the highway was they said well we have to put that in there because otherwise the car wouldn't make it down the street because all the street lights would make it stall I can make it better while they can make it better the problem is I think you've got. [21:53] You got all these people that have to die in order for it to learn we can't get the pilot in a plane to work, it's called Evolution how do you read how do you mean. It's almost your taxes they are still accident, what I talk about you when you talk about the car later the old white guy, can about which one of us that you cuz you played without light yeah okay old white guy claiming he making comments about technology that he knows very little about. I don't know who this is but I'm just giving a summary of the story all right okay. Should I consult someone else after this one's for you David okay so I like to complain about that. [22:52] I suppose many people do the Japan's new cybersecurity administer admits he's never used a computer. You know what that's awesome because he understands the dangers and he wants to stay safe from hackers and all sorts of other cyber threat so I think he's taking every possible precaution so in other words he's okay, yeah but everyone else on his stock has two phones two laptops three tablets their kids their wives all their Partners everybody in their constituency. Everybody's tweeting and slacking and putting all this information except him but I think he's a model I think he's leading by example is that. [23:41] Anybody could go through life and not use a computer at the well he says before he says he has people for that he just ordered other people use computers for him. Why would I want to do that I have people for that okay to remember back I think was a 2009 or so then you had a my six what been cord being see further, my husband just got a new job of the head of a life can be very loved those babies cody with the bs if and here's their family vacation pictures and here's where we're going to live been ants that like what's the weakest link it security human that's why we need killer ai to stop the weakest link pergo all we will stop the week is like for sure. I hate David you want to talk we just want to talk one thing is. Pratt Sam's is releasing a new book called beneath the surface and coming out in. A couple days a week from now so we'll try to get Brad on the podcast Brad shamelessly promote his dad is the robin to Paparazzi Batman. [24:49] Sure if you want to go that way I don't know why he work football throughout quite a bit this podcast, being etc and which you didn't have am on a show called the surface miss either that it will read the book care not read the book and overview ourselves I think it's much we're going to have a bias and informed review it might as well be from the author as opposed to Vermont. Yes all right cuz microsoft now got their own e book reader and her yoni bookstore are i think of that see it. [25:19] Music. [25:27] Alright so I'm only hoping waiting for this is why Peter is here today Peter brought some toys to show us and talk about. [25:35] Start with peter think very much so. Give some people some ideas for Christmas over the holidays coming up if they're for you or if they're for some of the people some things to think about so. Just some of the products I brought in one of them is a mobilelite wireless router and the reason why I got one of these from Kingston was it was go. Able to save me all kinds of pain so that my kids could actually stream and watch some movies in the van unfortunately this thing belongs in the wood chipper literally in the wood chipper it's about that useful. The main reason for it is the. [26:25] Light mobilelite Wireless G3 no idea why I bought that was I could stick in. A memory card put some movies on it sticking in here and the kids will be able to stream the movies in the van on a ten hour trip in the van the problem is. [26:43] There were two apps to download neither one word one of them one of them you used if you wanted to stream the movie one of them you wanted to use it to download the movie to download the movie in the van over the fast wireless network was going to take probably about 15 to 20 minutes, so you might as well just look out the window, so that one that one is just not very useful I spent more time yelling at the kids in the back of try this try that you know then I just stopped don't use it at all why didn't you return it. Cuz I had our it again way too long so I bought it okay okay i'll just in in a month or two because it was on sale i figured fantastic it's on sale they were really little too expensive for me and i five all we took was on sale but it was a month and half two months before christmas and then when i finally got the use it it was past date that I could return it so that was to get pitched next one are screen protectors for your phone I'm a big iPhone screen protectors a lot of people think while I got Carrillo 3 Grill at 4 on my phone it's not a big deal I thought I should they shouldn't scratch problem is. Those that did the types of screen protector the gorilla glass that's on them they're not really made for puncture. [27:55] Pressure points so if you happen to drop it just at the wrong spot on the ground crush on the corner there to help if it falls on the hegemon right haveman but it'll stop the scratch it'll it'll listen to scratch it the thought process that I'm thinking is it's much cheaper to replace a $20. [28:16] Screen protector then it is a $200 screen so on my last phone I, 5x the whole kit on the outside came I took my phone apart surprise surprise I took it apart and it actually comes as a whole assembly unit you can't just replace the glass itself the whole thing is is is a unit so the whole side case there the back this one's a pixel so when I, so I pick someone I got it on for half price I put my other one broke I went into a bootloop and I thought okay well I'm not too pixel 3 is coming out I don't want to buy $1,000 pixel 2 so what am I going to do I ended up finding a pixel, wine insure auto for half price I'm trying to work Stellar it's absolutely wonderful so now I have a bit of time before I feel that I want to buy the pixel. [29:06] You like these I like the screen protector because if the screen scratches its The Protector, the whole idea is on the protector there's about three different kinds of protectors of the first guys the floppy one that's that's the one that the float is a bus that too low piece of plastic strainer of that's right and all the protein you have double that and you have that was the problem with that one is just the finger status as a go then the next level is you've got a thick plastic so that still Lisitsa still better your your finger slides across and that is really good for the scratches the next level up is about a 20 or $30 price point and that's where you get into this Osceola thought that it starts this the finger smudges right. Set that doesn't start really stop means at. [29:57] Oil okay and it it it works so Stellar I can see my finger sliding across. [30:05] When I put them on the S8 which has occurred screen yeah they break. So if I can put a new one on my phone every month in the break so I've got I don't have one of the ones with the curved screen on this one with the way that they solved it on this pixel phone is it doesn't actually extend the Paso record only lasted a month and I'm spending $10 a month on screen protectors you might want to get one of the older ones now the benefit of the older ones they're cheaper there but five six bucks now mac and about ten bucks your getting the plastic one, the plastic one if people complain about the the the light going through opps alot of like when i have a similar one here's the it's the glass tempered glass ones, where's the one that you recommend I like the tempered glass so what happened on mine i happen to slam it on the table one day at least have for something in a slab in that i pick up the phone going ho few it didn't actually crack then i turned it on and in the light i could see this this spider if i am gonna hyper the real screen it's only 3 months old okay I got to live with it long story short a year later I go to change the actual screen for screen protector that it shattered not there real screen. [31:22] So this was wonderful I could have changed it a lot earlier I know a couple of people that swear that they won't ever buy, screen protectors my problem is if you have your phone for two three years it's gonna get use not going iphones for your ultimate. [31:41] Some pretty pics of shaved and someone says it's a decent. Medical okay there's a scratch there's a scratch there's a there's a okay not a problem it's minor. But if you ever. You rather replace a twenty dollar screen protector than an actual two hundred on the screen so that's the decision point when it comes down to it but if you've got a thousand dollar phone plan but are you willing on your furniture. [32:07] Maybe that you might have a reason to put that fabric on the furniture but that's that that's for kleiner flick okay if so difficult to see a whole lot so, your verdict. This is a definite by your verdict know because it breaks its it's all a conspiracy very cool you're looking to get a mouse for a friend of yours one of the things that you want to actually consider is corrugated or cordless which i would think of not even i would just automatically assume cord Leslie's gliss I'm thinking the exact opposite. Just because everyone's wireless devices are around me there's all kinds of wireless devices especially when you're in at office please. [32:59] I've recently changed change companies I've now in it in a day, to 300 people there is how many countless mice wireless keyboard some phones tablets laptops speakers there's all kinds of wireless devices all over the place i had one of these new, Microsoft cordless mice the this one is the Microsoft sculpt ergonomic Mouse it's wonderful I love this melts except. Every afternoon feel not between the hours of about 1:30 to 3:30 this thing would stutter I'd be going across the screen expecting a fluid motion and he would stutter it would skip on me and I'm like what is going on this drive me nuts the only thing I can think of that makes sense is its interference throughout the building are these other wireless devices going on be nice to know one way or the other however i ended up, what. [34:11] No the cheaper they like 40 bucks or something about 50 bucks on it from the Microsoft store The only hiccup is between this one and the one that was from about 18 years ago is the court is a little bit stiffer. So no. Are you willing to get them at all to either for one rep announced, Soviet the thing. [34:43] The thing is is where the problem is that when it's on your desk if you've got this mouse cord that stiff what ends up happening is is it gets caught inevitably on the monitor or the monitor stand so I didn't. It is up slowing down when you're scrolling across when you got your right across it's an abstraction for drake it's an extra drag it's an obstruction so that was the one thing that what they make him wireless how to attach and agree to our actually cake here's the thing if you like the intellimouse here's the one thing that I found that I lost on the sculpt Mouse you can actually go sideways on the roller ball it will actually go sideway so if you're on up if you're on the web page and you want to be able to go left and right. You've actually got either use the keyboard or you've got to use you guys use the scroll bars at the bottom of your browser on. Not sure it's got a universal adapter so on the intellimouse you lose that. [35:44] You don't have that so for me i like to tell a mouse i also like the skull mouse there both buys. I would I would strongly suggest these guys. [35:59] The Dove soap early 1990s late 1980s you paper mache one and I was one for Halloween one year. What the PS2 connector and everything, weeks to make it and people i were it be possible a that makes of lotus it yo whats the on off what would you flush the rougher. So the next one that I have is an Asus Transformer mini so I got these for for my kids, and the whole idea was I needed something that was relatively inexpensive that wasn't going to break the bank we didn't want to buy, one expensive to have four kids the idea was I couldn't buy two of them I could buy two surfaces, I'll buy a surface I looked at the prices they were a little too expensive for what I was looking to get out of them so then I thought I hate this anybody have a used one someone did David and I thought okay this is but now I have a problem, my kids well, we try and teach them to share well and for the most part they do but kids being kids they all want to get on the computer the same time so. I had to ask santa what's the best thing to do so he went to his house. [37:29] I need basically said comes out at Christmas time see if there's any sales the day before Christmas last year Christmas I'm looking at these and they were on sale wonderful, what's keyboard with the keyboards like a cheaper than Mercedes eyeless exactly and The Stylist so my partner loves The Stylist I would rather use the finger cuz I always lose the stats I would rather. [37:58] The missing of that serie so the problem is on the east there at the really nice devices here's the major malfunction that i have but I didn't learn about this until afterwards when you close the lid, you've been playing a game you get the sound through the speakers pretty good speakers on the keyboard is great you puke you have separate the kids close the computer everybody goes the chris that that the kitchen table after supper they'll get back on the computer again for some reason I haven't figured out how or why the sound goes away. Will not come back the only way to get the sound back is to start stop and rebooted here comes in the next problem have you tried device manager to stop the sound card with if it's just the driver i haven't got in it and and at the low-level in the device manager start and stop it now cuz I thought that's a little hard to tell an eleven-year-old easiest to restart the problem is starting this bad boy you gotta press and hold the button. [39:01] That's also how you put it into into hibernation not sleep by you that's how you turn it it's not hot it's how you turn it off and how you you make it go to sleep, so you don't get any any any physical feedback it's very poor of the physical feedback on, yes it's so whether you press it down for a long time or with the you press it down for a little instant cuz that's the old surface are t you still do that if you press it why is it would just go away s are way the screen with. [39:34] We go black and in a certain pattern if you press and hold it for a long time it would instantaneously go right away so there was some feedback are some visual feedback this guy doesn't have it goes to sleep or it turns off kind of randomly. Is the set and i know windows key shortcut to have it. [39:52] Restart your restart yes I want to teach them the Windows PC because normally would end up happening is if you close it. And then you reopen it again and you going to your game and then there's no sound, or when it's of happening is i go to a drawing class for my kids and i downstairs and i i bring out this this actual tablet and i put in but the box peter i know i f, it's the analogous in August so I open this guy I put in the USB key navigate to 2 thank you for they're not made to restart quickly so it takes, all three for five minutes for it to restore really I thought it's not fast so I'm at similar issues and also Battlefield medic you see if it's the driver, and if it is you can go to older driver sometimes that's all that but it's similar situation Powershell script that I just got put on the taskbar yeah to, to actually kill the driver and restart it again so it's just a little. [41:18] So I got to get that from you in the past or spend twice as much in the surface go well where I did spend the money was I bought a of the SD memory card. Because the actual hard drive that's on these guys but not the platter drive but the so I thought okay it's got expandable memory the problem, if you're going that route and you want to buy one of these things right up right away. Don't wait try it out right away so what end up happening was I got one put some movies on it we go on a road trip come back Bubba block 6 months later. Thing is unreadable you can copy movies to it i can't enumerated i do a windows key to bring up with his explore try to go to the dr the whole thing is dick that little usp key is is can put. [42:09] So and it's a brand new 6 months go to micro SD card or USB key micro SD card eBay or Amazon what they'll do is they'll take up like an 8 gig card. And reformat is a 32 and so the if the factory to where the fat table makes it look like it's got that much space and it works great. [42:35] After 7 gigs would you stop what you're right past the actual physical capacity, thing just trial that will be like immoral to do that it's so we're back to nineteen eighty seven with floppy disks. Well that's what happens if that's what you have to do to. Due to with checked them see hey this is really physically a it at a gig or whatever the barbara for the numbers are someone just formatted it will it drop of i can mb are a file kitchen table on it that makes it think its thirty two when you writing to it okay, alright and it worked fine location table will work until. Replaced actually right yeah and mental there and that's white will i have to happen before and if so that the only go name brand or i run the tools on them to check the moment when they arrive okay so what tools you run on that i. I remember what it was I was using acronis okay. Of course I'll have to try that out the next time there's different ones you can check but but it's a it's a known issue they okay no I had gotten I think it was SanDisk. I don't think was a Kingston one of them was just saying. It was a really good deal on one of those deals. [43:55] Them other than the sound board in the sound what i think it is for the price for the functionality i do think it's a by my sister house for text okay this one is an interesting one I actually was looking for. [44:16] Smartwatch I smart watch and I was lucky enough my last work, they ended up having coming into a bit of money with an investment they bought everybody watches Stella this is wonderful I can get an Android Smartwatch I've been looking to buy one so very cool. You're not wearing it though I'm not no I'm not and the end and this is this this is Anna This Is War. [44:46] Are you like that with that was straight number one the fact is i can get basically about one or two days i could probably push it but here's the thing, when you got one of these smart watches you really have to decide why do I have a smart watch a lot of people have these SmartWatches because they say what because I want to track my steps I want to track my sleep I want to be able to do some of these athletic things because your phone does all that and I would be curious to find out and ask people, three weeks later I month later too much later are you still doing those activities so most of the people that I know. Aren't felt cute and his thing so I bought the Fitbit ionic I had a Garmin before at what I like but that's my issues with the charger on it about the Fitbit ionic but I bought it specifically as a. Fitness device and the bonus was I can get messages on it and things like that too but I bought it as a fitness advice and I was using it that I indicated, with MyFitnessPal and a bunch of other things if you're at work right my biggest issue with it is the recharging cycle yes so what I found on this one is I could change certain settings like turning off. [46:03] The the the heart monitor i could turn off the blue tooth i could turn off the wife i said, the more things that you turn off is the longer your let your battery will last i could at one point get it to about three four five days the problem is. Just watch at that point the hope of having a smart watch is to be able to do extra things with it like your text notification of the previous one that i had before but why it i've actually my partner had one in, deep the band didn't fit well on on her wrist so I thought I didn't like it because you only got your notifications once, so you really got to take a look at the features that you're getting if you can try it at the store first before you buy it, most definitely hook it up to your phone be careful hook it up do something so that you actually get some use out of it this one particularly I didn't quite like because the band itself oddly enough the band itself. [47:04] Your knees on your bottom of your wrist actually stiff as a hologram of not this one, when he got it will they advertise that you can try find one i try to fight you sure you could i realize you can take it apart, now try and find a different one it so. Still a clasp and it's the clasp when your hand is on the ground when you're actually resting years we lived strap like if. But. Actually have to know you could never strap this no problem. [47:48] If your are could you have to actually but without truffle to fit through there she have to take this bar out or just buy bars are like organ for free the jeweler there i am nickel. But you just spent four hundred bucks on a while and now you got to buy a strap they came with it for so now but you got to know what you're getting yourself into right the whole idea is to figure out what are you getting yourself into that was a surprise that I didn't realize that I was getting here. If you can buy from Costco or Amazon we go to return policy. Anderson store because that's not waiting to find out my biggest problem I love my Garmin can I go over a week then get to a week and a half I wear my watch I like the silent alarms and wake up my wife and things like that and I wake up earlier. But the problem is biotic is I get somewhere between three and five days on a charge it's not a regular on a regular cycle charging it and I can't really charge it at night why not. Because I'm doesn't wake me up in the morning cuz not on my wrist so yeah I get about 3 days out of this. [48:56] Where did night. See you seven hundred three days i'll put it on my and my contract and so i'd love one that this worked on my body motion mx around there that they have a flywheel and i charge it by going to the gym. And I'm surprised they haven't done that already cuz I think that would be stellar, they have regular watches that do that why can't get a charge out of these while they think they made a lot more power and the ability to change kinetic energy into DC and get it into the battery or looking at some pretty big machinery it's going to be it's going to be a little bit unwieldy review unit after the review. And I've had it for 2 years now and I still wear it and I haven't heard watch for probably 20 years so what do you use your watch for your weather and. Finding the phone actually have find the phone on the phone I can find my watch will you go both ways. [50:00] Only with enough only with a television. [50:08] Yeah I mean it does messages so you know you're going to look at a text message or whatever better why can't you lift up your phone I can alright everything else yes so the other the next thing routers if you're looking at getting a router one of the things that you probably want to take a look at that I assume i had on this right right lights i bought a net you're right or from my suggested i was hired as a problems with the range with the house and drop conductivity if you've got something like a rogers that the wife i rotors with rogers apparently there were the rumor has it they're terrible they dropped connections they're very poor at managing your wifi-connected so you're probably going to want to get a dedicated Wi-Fi router the thing is, you don't want to have both the with a Wi-Fi router from Rogers going as a Wi-Fi router you probably want to turn that on to a bridge, so once you turn that into a bridge people don't know what bridges are all I know is you turn that. [51:07] Box that white box from Rogers or Black Box depending which one you got you'd literally turn it back into just a modem you turn off the Wi-Fi capability. Okay that's the you turn it off okay fine so you don't have two different networks in here that's the one that that you are, dedicated Wi-Fi routers is providing you the problem of the surprise that came on this one for me was I. Start at the expense that I paid for this that I was going to be able to just out of the box set it up time of day service for certain devices Yorkie devices turn off and certain Divine L turn back on automatically at 8 in the morning course that works right of course it works I went and looked at it went to turn it on this interesting I have to now enable this thing called the circle. [52:02] Movie called so with that i had to turn on enable log in i had to create a new account go to circle so this is a new apparently product from Disney okay this is sounds sounds okay so I I connect, and it starts monitoring my connections and then I realize well I still don't have my time of day that I want to turn on and off I find it. [52:28] I have to pay five bucks a month I just spent a boatload of money on one of these nice on a Wi-Fi router that is super fast I can connect all kinds of devices in the house all simultaneously. But I can't do time of day service I have to pay an additional five bucks a month on this and and it just it it's something that I thought would just be for free, with the product of the motive of the router but I think what Netgear is doing is there they're basically offloading that type of of functionality cuz I don't want to deal with it so did you return the rotor or just let your kids get on the internet whenever they want I didn't return the router cuz I actually like the functionality that it was providing me I didn't want to go back to the LinkSys Wi-Fi router that I had and have. The how should I put hearing all everybody in the house complaining that this web page takes too long to load, this guy gets rid of those problems but i can't do the time of the service so. Buyer beware this is one of those where it goes in the middle. [53:47] It's too sarty a c six d eight you was the top of the line right at the time AC 1900 USB 3 slot media server built in and things like that I just put an external drive on it restore files or whatever. [54:13] If you wanted to use 5 gigahertz you couldn't use USB 3 for your media server. [54:18] So the main reason why I bought the red one of the theaters use if you're using the USB 3 it turns out to be the 5 gigahertz. Band and the USB 3 interfere they've got something weird going on with the interference on it it's a it's not it's not just a, Asus problem it's a bigger than that you think they were too cheap to buy the aluminum foil to put between the two of them I don't know what basically so anyways I have to go to USB to but I, speak transfer speed right so anyways lotta weird little things like that to interesting, okay what's next with an investment of but the by no by what is it and its in the middle in the middle. So see it's a by i have the lead with the media so i don't think that's the this i had esther next speakers, these are things that are probably going to be on someone's list at some point time in the future you get what you pay for that is basically what the sun is with the some of this is so I ended up getting a wonderful speaker and it's. [55:28] It was a wonderful gift for my sister I love it. Set it is a small speaker so it does click the noise is it it was. A bit of a gag gift and it and it worked. [55:48] I've got another speaker actually one I was lucky enough to win this speaker is one of the big pill Sony speakers at SharePoint Saturday from last year was an issue and it's a wonderful speaker I can put the power on connected to the phone it always connects and I can actually put it on so loud that when I'm at work, I can hear it throughout the whole office it is incredibly loud. [56:16] A recommends a few of them there some Chinese no name brand that he really likes all that they make him from Monster and Sonia and JBL right so if you're looking at getting a speaker if you can try it out wonderful if you can't try it out go with reviews and listen to what they say. Is it it if you'd if you bite. Hopefully that they're going to get a laugh out of it because otherwise you might be getting what you pay for. Let's go into the next one for some Audio headphones, phones can be very interesting if you're looking to buy some for somebody else i recommendation is don't unless they ask for specific ones that's right certificate if you can put a label on it put it up little yellow sticky do something don't necessarily buy it for somebody else so what i found is there's basically three different cleansers in here. On ear or over the ear so you've seen people walking down the street they've got these things are their heads are popping but you can't see what they're listening to Chances are they in the ear headphones. [57:33] So within the ear, there's all kinds of different there's subtleties with with the different kinds there how they they go inside the ear if you're looking for something for long-term if you're if you're at work and you want to listen to music while you're doing some support while you're doing some tickets while you're, doing some investigation and you're going to be having your headphones on for like 4-5 hours chances are you going to want something that's either on or over-the-ear my suggestion is over the ear. [58:01] Because i find that on the ears i got a pair of these lychee texas think they're h four nineties the problem iphone, if you're wearing glasses they pinch the ears after a vote, 15 minutes what are they there their Logitech and I think they're the the 490 SR5 90s I ended up thinking okay well that they're going to be over the ear so they should be comfortable they've got the leatherettes, for that the foam padding that should be fine and for that when you put them on your head they feel wonderful, okay for the first 5 minutes and then well okay then it's time to buy them you pull the trigger you go to the cashier pay you go home you put them on you listen to them for 5 minutes you forget about, then you end up on a long conference call and then you start to know that hurts ouch what's going on and then you realize. Oh it's pinching on the glasses so I noticed calling you got glasses David You Don't See, don't worry pretty girl. [59:02] So have you ever had a problem with your headphone yes okay see you know so i've actually avoided using these guys i'm. I have to admit I've got some on here that I don't mind that's the jabbers are pretty good okay some of them have an adjustable tension bands as well so the more the better that does not adjust the tension band well I can I can I can Brute Force doing this and I'm actually what I'm actually trying to do is spread them, keep them so that they're spreading and you have to be very gentle cuz I'm afraid one of these days they're just going to snap which won't be a big loss cuz that's how I feel got some chapters I got a few that are pretty good but typically I go so I use all kinds of different earbuds and on here I don't use on here that often I typically use over the ear but we're wearing now I got the. [59:50] I've got some for what would be considered audiophile headphones wearing some right now I've got two sets of sennheiser's I really like I've got some. Audio-Technica really like 1144 classical music other ones more for rock and roll oh so you tell your headphones there's also a open back vs. closed back versus, deal with open back vs. closed back which one is is is better in general so all things being equal the clothes back will be better for private listening where you don't want people around you to hear what you what you're listening to the open back has more liquid because the back is open but, but it gives you more of a Sound Stage presence that more of a like if you like Symphonies and you want to come in the violins are there left in this year. If you just close the two a conference call it all at the theater so but no you for listening music and dependent cup music listing to write a. [1:00:50] So you get more of a more of a soundstage and more it's wider open Sound but the downside is. The sound is actually coming out everybody else's a what's nine as mileage but yeah if you give your right here you be here when i'm listing to work with clothes back i could pri pretty private about everything to so yeah i'm listening to. [1:01:13] Something that I don't want you to hear then. Not at not necessarily appropriate very cool so if you're getting something for the office you may want to get the clothes back if you're getting something in a drawer in a door, oh that would be nice yes having a door would be nice all right next on the list if you're looking for keyboards. [1:01:34] This is Microsoft ergonomic 4000 I have that that was a set that came with the mouse's well right no this one is just the keyboard I have another version that came with the 5,000 I had that other 4,000 still have it at home somewhere else as well and I think the 5000 was a marketing skew that was specifically it was your head up with as a plus the meds. What's an ergonomic keyboard it's a shipping label so, basically when you go to type on the keyboard if you've got a regular 101 tell the waffles what you end up to hack what ends up happening is you have to shrink in your shoulders you can shrink in your elbows you have to twist your arms and your attitude your attitude. Awful angle it's The Cypher else so the problem there is it's not natural for your body could to contort that way, it's not a yoga class how should have your body Contour the way that I equated to is Kama Sutra, call Achu how do you catch the basketball like a great not like when you were in grade 5 have a girl. [1:03:00] Yeah but I'm not as big as you are more selfish think that you are so the ideas you catch it more like this so the ideas. If you were to put your hands on to a basketball that's flat on the desk your hands are actually going to be coming in from the side at about what a 30-40 degree angle and at the end your wrist is going to have around it approach so this is where ergonomic keyboards come in and and and help you imitate so Microsoft has basically two of these they've got the ergonomic sculpt and they've got the older 4000 of the prices of these of drop-down I've got v so much i've bought about seven or eight of them should be by before you buy more yet talk to me because okay we get friends and family pricing of microsoft oh that would happen that would be very nice because the way I I drink coffee and I've I've lost a couple of these. [1:03:58] Taught never used it. Hook up still working so the thing is what I like about this keyboard, is I like the key press mechanism that's on them the other thing is all the keys except the top top top row it's all the same mechanism right so what's the alternative on the Microsoft sculpt keyboard, it's got its got the hole in the middle at the sculpture carved out the problem is, the regular keys Microsoft has said we wanted to be the millennial Market that we're going after so they've got more of the chiclet Style. And if you're from the 80s or remember that, he said Junior Disney Junior that did chick like here it's not that chick with it's the new Millennial Chiclets Oak the problem is on that sculpt keyboard. Three different types of button key press mechanisms so our regular key the shit keys the function keys and then there's another set of keys they all have different key presses so I figure if you're a programmer or if you're a typist and you just you want to have the similarity across all keys it's not going to happen now if you're if you also happened to move your hand across the top and you just going by feel the function keys are in the same places that drives me nuts so and also what I thought was a godsend was the number pack floats it's on battery wonderful I can stick it on the left hand side. [1:05:26] Calling when you do control shift delete when you do that you're three-finger salute instinctively go there this is three fingers permission how much whiskey to put in a glass. [1:05:49] They are cool very cool so david when you doing copy paste yeah what do you do for copy paste your gonna use the rodent control the control seat while freaking control the pastor. [1:06:01] Inside job if you're using the metal we can control but if you're using the number for used to the number pad being on the right hand side I thought I could teach myself to use the number pad on the left hand side I can't marry last time I used to never had on every course so that would be wonderful for you because on that ergonomic sculpt keyboard you can actually take the sticker on the left but here's the problem that I have. [1:06:28] If you've got the mouse this mouse right here the sculpt Mouse guess how many different types of batteries you have to buy, three different devices take a while get three three different types of batteries going to have on the most you're going to have the double as the keyboard takes the Triple A's I think behind the there's a cr2035 I think on the on the number pad three different types, batteries that you've got us have stepped away in your drawer just in case the batteries go bad at the wrong time so you got to have those stuck away squirreled away just in case I didn't quite like that and the fact that there's the difference types of key presses so I'm not a fan of that sculpt keyboard I know it I know a lot of programmers they're not a fan of those keyboards they like the 4000, the recording that's just of your headphones all okay but all of this is all this is really a way to screw with the gas money is so that's not be recorded and a place out to the peters headphones yes yes all, you can really get our guess. [1:07:39] Play pass the dutchie by Sonic Youth cuz he's talking with the left hand side so. Okay okay there no vf4000 is a definite Buy, okay okay. My last company i was lucky enough to drive a tesla this was hansen and yes and. The X the model X it's the one that after I know it looks one. Here's the problem. [1:08:23] The first point on notes take a wild guess 200 will the ones I priced it was. What she cheaper my god i called her your driving now that that's i drive a uc bruce huff thousand when i bought it now it's worth it so this is worth ten times that i know so here's the thing. After a couple of hours saves the environment that one's and that's why they don't have to pay taxes they get a refund and they're allowed to drive in the kitchen people at four hundred thousand dollar cars need tax breaks. 6 hour plate with a new battery and you can actually buy a new charger for your house so you buy $120,000 Tesla and it comes with a free but you have to have a DIY project to install this new electric charging station for your garage or use the slow charger yeah you need to run extra cables. [1:09:23] USBC no not now so you can plug it in the house and I had to do that, range anxiety is a real thing I know I passed what I thought but I was driving to Peterborough by this Tesla is going like 78 miles an hour why is the sky going so slow. So you've got in laws way up North how long does it take to travel to get there to get to Timmins yes oh they died. But yes that take by the seven day long the governor eight hours seven or eight hours left it in laws that are up north as we about to three hours north of tenants the problem is the roads and did that to misc timmins. No no the polar bear Express the problem is I punched it into the computer. The tesla and it says how do i get there it was about four days and there was no more charging stations passed sidebar, actually had to get rowdy through separated go through north bay it when three separate and that was the last place in actually said you cant get there from here. [1:10:44] Yeah and I was flabbergasted so you rent a gas car for those times. [1:10:50] But I just spent a hundred twenty Grand order rental cars or the salt at that you have a program for those times you need a gasoline engine that they lend you one. You are my sky Pilates what I've what I've read and what I've told what I've been told and what I, unable to figure out if they want to have these self-driving cars this year the model 3 that they want to come out with you it's basically an interior washable car with this equate sociable. So the idea is you know when you go into these public washrooms and they clean themselves they got this hoes ever been but I've heard them they want to do that type of idea what the model X are the model 3 and the idea is they wanna be able to happen so that you can say I want my 50-60 however model what's a model 304 5262 I want to use that and make money for me why should I say it's boring for me making me money. I got a couple problems with that here's my problem ever what you spend 60 Grand on a car are you going to want to loan it out, to a friend of yours probably on my money out through the bank. [1:12:07] But that's not going to happen at all I guess I could have an accident yet but it it's going to be a little different from a car accident, so here's the thing they want to loan this out and have it running through and end. If you spend 60 Grant you're not going to want to have to do that hold on Uber is going to buy a fleet of them. So Uber is going to buy Harley wants to do is have individuals have this supplement economy. Correct so that's right here in pa if i ever wanna use your heidi. [1:12:48] How do you tell other people there's a cop on the road. Why aren't you do you i beach to find out if any of the readers i actually had to use while that is because that's why plus why flatbread of the through the down the street and i flush the page can you just ruled by a police officer and it's just common courtesy these that's what i was told but that's beside an 80s rule do new drivers know this. Forks of my son's a big car guy other than one of the very few of his friends are. He watches the grand tour and he still really liked, your oil level in jewels and they're talk money in england i don't have the numbers right but it isn't over the last twenty years they got less than. They went out at 75% less people applying for driver's license. [1:13:42] 75% less round trip across all UK or just in London but so as an example the way they would have been. 20000 people apply for driver's license typically new drivers and younger people they were 5000. I'm continuing to still have to book 6 months ahead and then continue to drop so the problem with that is that is going to encourage all the self-driving cars what the problem with a self-driving car. The problem with the the self-driving car is. Gotta be taught how to steer into the skid sure sure i don't think it's gonna get it right every time that i get right battles lol humans did are you sure but i would rather trust a human eighty skating then a computer cuz it could fly I would not good humans but not most humans. [1:14:36] I don't believe humans reaction in a skid is not thoroughly is not to release the brake and stare into it it's to steer away from it and hit hard hit harder on the break. I am looking and look at the tree so that's where they and he lied creek rolls in so we've tried to come up with systems. To help these situations and that's where antilock comes in that's where the there's the traction control so there's there's things that can be part of the car when I'm driving down the street in my car I turn off the traction control, and the reason is because that the nanny bought that's on the car actually hinders me when I'm driving I got stuck in the middle of an intersection because the traction control said over the wheels are spinning too fast I can't have that we got it we got it monitor Nevada Matic don't you oh I didn't say I love stick so I'm sitting there going I'm in the middle of the intersection stuck on a snow cuz the plow drove by how do I get off at 8 so I got to rock the car and these new drivers he's 5000 drivers they don't know nothing about rocking a car I don't necessarily need a license I've got public transportation I've got Uber they don't need it. [1:15:55] My niece and nephew I thought they'd be chomping at the bit to learn how to drive, it's very different for it because they could just get Uber to go to go drive from it also it's so expensive to allow a young person drive your vehicle insurance side so they don't want it it it does get expensive it does get expensive. The one thing that I thought was interesting was I broke it. [1:16:25] Actually broke I actually broke it, aight four billion of it hardly enough i was thinking of this like a break stuff i, with the Tesla I was showing people how the button on the back seat works it's all electronic you press the button that beat the seat goes out of the way wonderful. I was nervous hundred $20,000 vehicle it won't come back up it's mechanically setup it must be must have learned a lesson or two from Apple because the seat basically says what you want to do that no no I can do that better than you, i will do that for you i press the buttons it wont come back up again it doesn't have a latch that says on no no no, I could do this more than you I know what I want to do and have the seat come back up so another words this seven-seater was now a 5-seater because the backseat was stuck in the downward position. Okay that's bad enough this is a common problem I Googled it make it okay how much is this going to cost me so I Googled it this is a common problem it is a warranty able problem wonderful, okay why did we get the tesla can. [1:17:37] So it saves the environment I don't believe it but I did say it, turn will come back to that what is that so here's the thing how do they fix the seats the ship you a brand new one from montreal, descend a mechanic from Montreal we don't have any dealerships in Ottowa they ship a seat from Montreal receipts of God if he was 7500 lb

Hey class!  Welcome to our very first Horror Pod Class Extra Credit Episode, where we take the opportunity to interview professionals from the horror genre.  Today, we are talking with the incomparable editor Ellen Datlow.  Ellen has a brand new theme anthology out right now named The Devil and the Deep: Horror Stories of the Sea.  We talk with Ellen quite a bit about the new collection and you can also read our review over at Signal Horizon.   Here are some Amazon affiliate links to the just released and upcoming books we talk about today: The Devil and the Deep: Horror Stories of the Sea   The Year's Best Horror Volume 10   Echos: The Saga Anthology of Ghost Stories   Signal Horizon:  For fiction readers who might not know, how important is a good editor and what techniques do you use to help authors craft a powerful story? Ellen Datlow: Well, that's kind of complicated.  First of all I don't read unsolicited manuscripts anymore.  So what I see is usually from people who I have worked with before or I know they are professional writers already and they know the basics of writing.  When I buy a story I work with a writer to basically make sure what they want to say is on the page.  So I ask a lot of questions when I am editing.  I think it is important for writers to have an editor because we are going to help you not stumble.  I consider myself as an editor, the ideal reader.  When I am looking at material I am going to help you see what missteps you might make or have already made.  My job is to help you rewrite, or revise, to get those those mistakes out of the manuscript.  And that's not copy editing, that's different.  We aren't talking about punctuation and grammar necessarily, we are talking about consistency in tone, consistency, of course if I notice words or phrases repeated I will make note of those and say "are you sure you repeat this 5 times?"  There are certain words that writers repeat a lot and with computers you can see them really easy.  Once one jumps out at me, like that or just or but, and then you can look it up and see that there are 200 buts in your 20 page story, get rid of most of them.  If you can, and that might mean you have to rewrite the sentence or cut out something.  so basically my job is to make good stories become great stories, hopefully.  Or really good stories even better.  That's kind of what I feel my job is.   Signal Horizon:  So I got a chance to read an advance copy of your newest anthology, The Devil and the Deep: Horror Stories of the Sea.  It was great, I was super impressed.  Its 15 new horror stories all with a nautical theme.  I'm really interested in the creative process you use when you come up with a theme for a new anthology and what was it like for this one in particular? Ellen Datlow:  First I pitched it to my editor that I have worked with on The Best Horror of the Year, and he liked it, it was the first original anthology that Nightshade has bought.  Sometimes the in house editor, the publisher, wants to know who you are going to try to get to write.  I don't remember if I got them the names in advance, but once we agree on a contract and it is in process I will solicit the writers.  Writers whose work I like, writers whose work might be perfect for the theme.  I'll contact them and ask them if they are interested and give them a broad outline of what I am looking for or what I am not looking for.  For the sea horror, I said I want all kinds of seas, oceans, by the sea, and even inland seas.  As you might have noticed we have an inland sea story, by Brad Denton, that takes place in the desert out in the west.  It was a former sea and so there is no actual water in the story, but I encourage writers to do that.  Basically, they have about ten months to write a story, if its a new anthology.  Over time I will periodically poke them and ask them how the story is going.  For every anthology I do I ask about a third more writers than I need because usually a third drop out for whatever reason or I don't like the story.  I keep pushing and asking how is the story coming and if writers say "what story?" then I say, hey I need a story now! Or, I need it in three months!  Sometimes they say, I can't do it or I tried, I don't have any ideas or I'm too busy.  Sometimes they send me a story and I just don't think it works.  Through the whole process as the stories come in I judge, what do I have?  What do I need?  Are too many stories similar to each other?  At that point you start contacting the authors who havn't sent anything in yet and say, I don't want any more of this or that.  So thats basically how it works, some people don't buy the stories until they have all come in, I buy them as they come in.  If there is a substantive edit I will do that before I buy the story.  That means if I think that is good and I like it, but I think it need work I won't commit to buying the story until the writer fixes it.  Then I let them sit, it usually not until about two months before I have to hand in the anthology that I start doing the line edits.  I try to start with the earlier stories, the ones I bought first, so I have had time to digest them.  Then I do the line edit where I do a line by line reading to make sure that everything seems to be in its place.  Every line is comprehensible, there is no "I don't know what you are talking about here" kind of thing.  I do the final line edit, then I have to figure out the order of the stories, usually I do that when I get all the stories in.  Thats kind of when you balance and see what you've got.  You try to balance the reading order so that the reader will enjoy it, but the thing about putting a table of contents together is that there is no guarantee that anyone is going to read it front to back.  Editors have to assume you will, because there is nothing else we can do.  The first and the last stories are the most important, the first you want to be inviting to get the reader into the anthology.  You don't want to make it too complicated.  You want to show this what the book is going to be about, so the first story is really important because you don't want to turn the reader off.  The last story is usually the one that the editor thinks is the most powerful.  Either that or sometimes I do a grace note, I put the really strong story second to last, usually a longer one, and then the last story is a shorter one that has a little punch to it.  Thats the basics of putting together an original anthology for me, then I write the introduction.  That usually comes from the proposal, I usually add to the proposal and that becomes the introduction.   Signal Horizon:  So I heard that when you solicited some of your past anthologies you will also come out with, "I don't want this".  In Children of Lovecraft I think it was no pastiche, no tentacles.  In the Doll Collection it was no Chuckie style murderous dolls.  Was there anything with the with the the Devil and the Deep that you didn't want? Ellen Datlow:  Well I didn't want to concentrate on sea monsters.  I'm trying to remember I don't really think I did.  I was pretty vague on that, for that one there didn't seem to be any obvious things to avoid.  I said I wanted horror rather than dark fantasy but other than that no.  I think that's an usual one because I don't think that the sea has been over done. The problem is with a lot of theme anthologies is that you've seen the theme and the specific types of stories on the theme over and over again. That's when you have to make sure and clarify this is what I don't want, but I don't think there has been that many sea horror anthologies so I didn't have that problem.   Signal Horizon:  One of the stories that just really stood out to me was Michael Marshall Smith's short story, "Shit Happens." I think it was legitimately one of the funniest short stories I've I've ever read and I'm dying to ask: did you know that you were going to get something that funny when you when you ask them to contribute?   Ellen Datlow:  I had no idea.   This is one of my faves too because it is funny and I usually hate funny horror.  But it works beautifully and also I love the secretary or the assistant,  she is that the fixer. I want her to have her story she's great. I forget her name but it's like oh my god I know that you've got to do more with her in the future.  Michael doesn't usually write funny but this was very funny.   Signal Horizon:  So I I know better than to ask what your favorite story from the collection is, but are there any you want to highlight that really stand out from this collection?   Ellen Datlow: It's difficult to do.  That one, but also "Haunt" which is the last one in the anthology and I it the one by Siobhan Carroll.  I put that last because I thought it was really powerful I don't want to give too much away, but it's about a boat stranded in calm water.  I forget what century it is in, maybe the nineteenth century.  I don't remember, but it's not our contemporary time.  I think it's horrifying from it's based on.  Some of the incidents in the story are real, I mean they are historically accurate.  It is just horrendous but you know it's hard to describe without giving away spoilers but that's one that I thought was a really strong story.  And of course Michael's.  I found Stephen Graham Jones' story very peculiar, I mean it's also very humorous in it's weird way.  It's about a young guy, I don't remember if he's a teenager a little older than that, but he's stranded on a desert island and things start washing up that he believes he wished for.  Be careful what you wish for because you might get it is the kind of moral of that.  It's got its mute amusing bits too, but Stephen is a really powerful writer and this is actually one of his quote unquote "lighter pieces" I think. He's very good crime writer and he's very good at dark and horrific material.  I don't you know it's like picking a favorite child.   Signal Horizon: I know it is it is difficult to talk about "Haunt."  Once I read it I wanted to tell everybody about it but it's it's difficult to talk about it without giving too much about it away.   Ellen Datlow:  The information will diminish its power.    Signal Horizon: Exactly, yeah I think one of the most powerful pieces of of short fiction I've read in in in a long time. So, you previously said that the story order, well we already talked about that.     Ellen Datlow:  But I didn't talk about things other than beginning and the ending.  You judge by various things, by the tone, the point of view, where story takes place, and how long it is.  I mean the length of the story to try to very them.  You don't want like three really long stories in a row.  Sometimes if one story is complicated and really difficult or hard to take you might put that in the middle or two thirds the way through because you want to have your readers get used to the rhythm of the book  You want them not to be slapped in the face too much until they're ready for it.  So you put a difficult, complex, or offensive, or maybe a provocative one you put that later on.  You don't put that first thing.   Signal Horizon:  I was also struck by the by the diversity of of all the of all the stories and it seems like it's a it's a real balancing act you to make sure they have a wide enough appeal and to keep the reader interested but the same time ensuring that there is a common element there that runs through the anthology.  How much of that is credited to work do you do?  Either who you solicit or how you polish them once they come in and how much of it is just kind of kind of good fortune I guess?   Ellen Datlow: It's both it depends on the anthology.  Like when I did my Poe anthology, I didn't want all of them to be House of Usher stories.  There were three stories that were kind of House of Usher stories in a way but they were different from each other. What I would do is before people wrote this story is I would say what are you writing about? I wanted them to write about one of Poe's pieces of poetry or prose. Even essays too, Glen Hirshberg wrote the Pikesville Buffalo based on short news item I think that Poe had written or read.  So it depends on the anthology.  This new one is good because it's not based on anything specific.  So I didn't have that problem. In that I was was lucky, but at a certain point you have to see how much is left, see what's coming in and if you see that everything's about a certain thing you have to steer people away from certain things.  In my Black Feathers anthology, several people have pointed out that there are quite few stories about crows and ravens. It's like well yeah because those are really popular birds!  So once you realize you've got three stories about ravens you say okay no more crows and ravens. Other birds now.  It depends on the anthology, what I did for my Alice in Wonderland anthology Mad Hatters and March Hares, is I asked each writer what you can about right about before they wrote. What creature going do, what aspect are you going to write about? To get the best variety it could. They're not meant to be retellings of events in Alice in Wonderland.  So the editor has to direct so you don't get all the same stories. Signal Horizon:  Writers are are pretty pretty open to that kind of that kind of direction? Ellen Datlow: Well, if you tell them straight out, yes.  If you tell them from the very beginning what you want to write about. I don't want to know the plot I don't want to know every detail, I just want to know what you are going to write about.  In Devil and the Deep I know Brad Denton came to me and asked me if it is okay to write the story that has no water in it. I said I asked for an inland sea story, sure go ahead. So that is the one that is the most far out there, thematically.  There is no sea in that story but it takes place in a former sea and there is a boat.  If you want to guide your anthology, then yes you have to have some input.  Some editors will give them strict assignments and say I want this or that.  I'm not that way I'm not a writer.  Those are usually editors who are also writers.  I'm not a writer, I do not have ideas. I do not want to give my ideas to the authors I want them to create their own stories and I will work with them to make the story better.  So I give guidance but I would never give them the plot line Signal Horizon:  So I saw I saw a couple weeks ago that the cover art and table of contents for The Year's Best Horror Volume ten is out.  The cover art as always is is amazing and the lineup for this year looks pretty strong. It's it's due out this summer so what are your overall impressions of that this year's line up? Ellen Datlow: Well I realize I have more women writers than ever before. Its almost even, which is unusual.  There is a substantial increase in female voices in the last twenty years and certainly the last five years.  That's been increasing and I'm finding that fabulous.  I'm gratified to see that there are women writers getting they're due coming out and writing really great stories.  I'm currently working on the best of best, which the best of the first ten years of the book.  So I am going through early volumes and I'm writing notes.  I'm not taking any stories that were in Nightmares, which was the Tachyon anthology that had the idea of the best of anew decade a modern horror.  It was like stories that I thought were really terrific from 2005-2015.  It was a sequel to my Darkness: Two Decades of Modern Horror. I'm not using any of the stories from Nightmares, which restricts me a tiny bit.  Obviously I love the stories in that anthology but I didn't want to use them again.  Its also a juggling act to pick three or so stories from each of the ten volumes.  I'm trying to get take stories that aren't over reprinted.  Things that have been reprinted only one or two times, but that is hard because over the years people have put out single author anthologies and reprint anthologies.  That's what I'm busy doing right now, but I thought last year was very strong. I always find at least twice as many stories as I can actually use. Last year's volume is a hundred thousand words which is I think the biggest I've done and I'm happy with all the stories.  I think they are great.   Signal Horizon: So when you do the Year's Best what does your workflow look like I mean?  Are you like constantly reading throughout the entire year?   Ellen Datlow:  Yeah, although I haven't really officially started for this year yet because of the Best and Best.  I will probably by the end of this month be deep into reading for this Year's Best. It's like a never ending thing. I do more work to the best of the year, not even a complaint but I do more work for the Year's Best compare to any other anthology and I get paid the least, because they are all reprints. I have people who are reading electronic magazines for me.  Something like light speed which doesn't have that much horror.  There's more and more material to read every year. Every year it they're more anthologies coming out and I always find out after the fact when it's too late. Sometimes I miss out on anthologies because the publisher doesn't send to me. I went to a con recently and it was in the dealers room and there was a publisher that had like 3 anthologies out that were published in 2017. I said you never said this to me and they said who are you?  What kind of publisher hasn't heard of the Year's Bests?  Not just mine but others.  They should be doing this to help the writers get recognition.    Signal Horizon: You know way better than me that the publishing industry has changed significantly in in the span of your career.  Right now there's a lot of really good horror coming out of very small presses.   Ellen Datlow:  Yes, right.  Well very few large presses will publish collect single other collections. A few do, but it is usually to promote or go along with a novel they are publishing.  I've been mostly with medium size and large publishers who publish my anthologies. It started with desktop publishing, and now because it's even easier with computers and everything. Writers can self publish, but it doesn't mean they should. Writers think that they should just go their work out there and someone will see it, but the problem is unless you have a following to begin with it's very hard to get anyone's attention. So in a sense things have changed, but they haven't changed that much. You still need to get your work out there and have people see or you are not going to make any money.    Signal Horizon: From my own point of view what I think one of the one of the values of the year's best horror is not only do you get all these great stories but that you also get exposed all these authors that you might not have they have read before. Sometimes you can you can pick up an author you never heard of and then you find that they have a novel and they have all these other short stories and you can really get engaged that way. Another part that I really like is that is your introductions are super detailed about what the state of the industry is is that year.    Ellen Datlow:  Well thanks, gratifying. I mean, don't love doing the summary but I take notes. I do it as I as I read I take the notes, so it's an ongoing process through the whole year.    Signal Horizon:  So I I know that you're always super tight lipped about your next themed anthologies but what other kind of things are you working on right now?    Ellen Datlow:  I'm not working on anything right.  For 2 years I worked on a huge ghost story anthology that this coming out October from Saga Books called Echoes.  It is over 200000 words so I have been working on that.  I haven't had time to sell anything else right now. In a way I feel free, I don't feel under as much pressure as usual which is kinda nice.   Signal Horizon: I really appreciate you coming on and sharing some of your knowledge with us.   Ellen Datlow:  Yeah, its been a pleasure and it's been a lot of fun.   Signal Horizon: So okay class where the big takeaways? Well if you are a  publisher make sure Ellen gets your stuff! That's the only way that you and your authors are going to get into the year's best. If you are a reader made sure you check out new anthology The Devil and the Deep, its fantastic and as always The Year's Best Horror Volume 10 is going to be is gonna be great.  So make sure you go out and pre order some Ellen's books and maybe even go to a real life brick and mortar store and buy a couple of them. Until next time, class dismissed.

Learn how I went from an unhealthy and suicidal Jehovah's Witness to a happy and healthy human being. I list exact books and podcasts that helped me in my journey to overcome the toxic and dysfunctional life that I had been given from my cult upbringing. Whether you're a recovering cult member or just your average person that has been blessed to never go through my experience, you can learn from this episode. This healthy information is something that everyone can benefit from, and I hope that you find something that improves your life in this episode. Direct Download Here Resources Mentioned (in no particular order): Books- Driven To Distraction – Edward Hallowell and John Ratey Man's Search For Meaning – Viktor Frankl Necessary Endings – Henry Cloud The Power of Vulnerability – Brene Brown Brene Brown TED Talk on Vulnerability Healing the Shame That Binds You– John Bradshaw The Emotionally Abusive Relationship – Beverly Engel The Narcissistic Family – Robert Pressman and Stephanie Donaldson Pressman A New Earth – Eckhart Tolle A Million Miles in a Thousand Years – Donald Miller Boundaries – Henry Cloud Happier – Tal Ben-shahar Last Lecture – Randy Pausch Podcasts - Mental Illness Happy Hour Dave Ramsey Show [expand title="Click Here To Show Transcript"] [00:01:52] Before we get started I'd like to give thanks for the iTunes reviews that I've received. They mean a lot to me personally and they kind of give the show credibility for those who are looking for shows like this. I had asked for some a few weeks ago and some of you responded and I really appreciate that also. Just hit a little mark. We're hitting 5000 downloads today. Just a week and a half ago to give you some idea. We hit 3000. So it seems like things are really picking up which is pretty cool and something that I really hadn't expected. This has gone far better than I could have anticipated. Now today I'd like to start with a little public service announcement something happened this week that hit me after last week's episode. The singer for the band Linkin Park Chester Bennington committed suicide. That kind of hit me hard for two reasons. One I just kind of got done reliving my own story and my own suicidal ideations and things and putting that out into the world. On the last episode to his music personally helps me on my journey. Their music ran the gamut from screaming to let out rage to these beautiful compassionate messages that mean he could sing at all different vocal ranges. They sing about things like codependents and depression and overcoming things. I could be totally frustrated with my life. Listen to one of their songs and feel like I either got the rage out or that I was understood. Sadly his own issues presented themselves in the end. Often it is those that hurt the most. [00:03:27] That kind of churn out some of the most beautiful art. If you're listening and you're hurting I mean I don't know how many people are listening I know. You know with 5000 downloads maybe there is somebody out there that's hurting. I just want to say that there are better ways out. Sometimes the disease wins as in his case and it is profoundly sad. However many do beat these thoughts and feelings. Our stories just don't make the news because shocking will triumph inspiring for ratings any day. I'm one such person and I know that there are many others. If you need help reach out with an open mind. You can find new ways of living and you can find what all of us are ultimately chasing which is happiness. The suicide prevention hotline can be called any time. 1 800 2 7 3 8 2 5 5. In fact if you google suicide prevention hotline It appears that they even have an online chat which is pretty cool. Just just reach out. Just please reach out. People do care about you and you can learn to care about yourself. [00:04:34] At the end of last week's episode I discussed this newfound revelation that I might have been dealing with some sort of ADHD for my whole life. This revelation was huge for me because it took away the moralization of my struggles that I've been giving my whole life and showed me that the cult that I have been taught to turn to for everything didn't really have the answers to everything. In fact there was a famous talk that made the rounds by a brother Mack in the organization that highlighted how we're all just getting by on pills and prayers brothers pills and prayers. This world is so wicked that it's on the way out and it's so hard to make it through well. That never sounded like a good life to me. It sounds more like an existence not a way to live. So I took this opportunity to dive farther into things I wanted to learn more about ADHD of course. And I dove headfirst into some online forums about it. I wanted to see how other people lived with it and kind of see how I fit in. I mean after all it is a spectrum. So you can't. So not everyone is going to have the same experience. I would spend the next couple of years heavily involved in that community not only receiving help but I also stuck around and tried to help others as much as I could. What I learned was that ADHD is an executive function disorder. That's exactly what it sounds like. [00:06:03] It's a difficulty in executing things in such a disorder you may face some measure of impulsivity and difficulty carrying out what you want to do unlike what the elders in the corrugation had just told me which I mentioned last week we all do what we want to do and it all comes down to choice. Well I was learning that our brains are often hijacked by many chemical imbalances and different disorders and sometimes just situational things. It doesn't mean that we have no choice in this world but it does mean that life doesn't merely come down to a matter of choices. If it did and we had this total control and all we needed to do or make better choices in life then we could be perfect for and if we could be perfect you know as this Christian I thought I was why would there be a need for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that I held in such high esteem. Why would he need to sacrifice himself because we could overcome our sinful or imperfect natures simply by making better choices right. Speaking of choices I ended up having one to make here. You see Jehovah's Witnesses ridicule self-help they also for many years pretty much condemned any kind of psychology. After all the only thing that you really needed was prayer and faith. Faith could move mountains and if you did go to the realm of psychology just don't mention that you're a Jehovah's Witness is ok. I mean if you do so and then talk about all your problems you might make Jehovah or Jehovah's Witnesses which is what they're really concerned about look bad and we can't have that. You see you can see here how they are all about appearances which I've mentioned before the outward appearance. [00:07:50] They like to talk about a scripture that references whitewashed graves that look good from the outside but inside we're full of dead men's bones and they would apply that outward to other religions. They did a lot of projecting. In reality they often claim things about others that were just as true if not more so within their own call. I was quickly realizing that I needed to look outside for some things. After all this one revelation was changing my worldview. It made me have some compassion for myself for once instead of self-hatred I had to accept that I might not be able to do everything that I wanted to do because I like every human being have limitations. Now that doesn't mean that those limitations have to destroy my life or dominate it. It just means that I might need some coping tools or strategies to manage it. In the end I did end up leaving that 80 forum that I was a member of for so many years at a point I realized that we all play roles in life. Some are the victors some are the victims but your attitude about things impacts your experience. I knew that I couldn't get rid of ADHD but I could better my life with it. A man without arms might not be able to catch a ball in his hands like everyone else. But that doesn't mean that he can't find some way to catch a ball. Humanity seems to find a way if it looks hard enough. Again don't don't take this in a perfectionistic way like what I would have back in the day. [00:09:23] I'm not saying that we can all do everything because we can't but we can all live happy and productive lives even if they aren't exactly everything that we thought we wanted. My goal with this episode is to show you what I learned over the next seven years from audio books and podcasts that changed my perspective that open my eyes and it gave me a new and healthy life. It got me out of this cult mindset away from the dysfunction and the toxic ways of being. [00:09:52] I learn so much and I want to share it because whether you were in a cold or not. This stuff can help everyone. I mean these aren't cults or anti-coal books these are just books and podcasts. I listen to that were healthy for anyone. This is what I learned that turn my life around from a narcissistic suicidal self-loathing guy that was putting on pounds in debt with ease to a person that has empathy for others and acceptance for myself and that has dropped the weight gotten out of that and is actually happy and healthy. [00:10:29] On my website this J.W. life dot com you'll find links to these books and other resources under this particular episode. Episode number 7. They aren't affiliate links. I'm not in the bookselling business or anything here I'm just trying to make this easy on people. If you need help you can find this help that you need as well. We can all learn and grow no matter our lot in life. It is difficult to look back over those years and to figure out exactly in what order I learned these things so I can look through. I have an account with audible dot com which is an Amazon company and see in what order I bought the books from them. Unfortunately though not all came from there I believe I bought some also Barnes and Noble has a good selection or at least they did have a good selection of audio books on their site so I'm going to kind of do my best to reconstruct this period of life. What I learned. I do think in a way the order did matter somewhat because you know one book would kind of build off the next day. I would learn something in one book and realize that maybe I was having you know this other issue that was kind of really preventing me from from applying it. And so I would get a book on that issue after learning about ADHD. I realized that I had a big problem with perfectionism So I started looking into books on the subject. The one that made the greatest impact was a book called happier by Talb been Shahar. [00:12:05] My biggest takeaway was this one phrase happiness is the ultimate currency. In other words that's what we're all striving for. We think that once we get to a certain place we'll be happy. For instance you might go to college and you're pushing so hard to achieve and you think that once you get that degree you're going to be happy. Then you get a degree and you're not. Now you have this job that you need to get. So now you're looking for this job that you're going to get. And you say that once you get that dream job then you'll be happy then you get that dream job and you're still not happy. Well you know once I get that dream car that dream house or that family whatever whatever it is for you that goal becomes happiness postponed. We have a distorted view of goals in the western world. Goals are there just to give us a direction. They tell us where we're headed. But in the end it isn't about that goal or that and it is the journey there that really matters and that's where we find our joy. By you know sometimes literally stopping to smell the roses. In fact there was an example in this book that actually impacted me very specifically. Happiness isn't about what you do as much as it is about why you do it. So I did a study on people that clean and hospitals those people were studied. And it was found that they were very happy people. Why. [00:13:40] I mean after all they're surrounded by people that are sick or dying and they have to clean up things like surgery rooms and other areas behind profoundly sick individuals every day. It seems from the outside like those people would maybe hate their jobs. In reality though those people didn't see what they did as just cleaning up blood or vomit. They were helping people. They got to know people and saw what they did for what it was instead of just the act that they were performing well this really hit me because back when I was listening to the book I was cleaning. I'll let you in on a little secret. I didn't clean because I liked cleaning. I mean let's face it the janitor cleaner is the butt of all the jokes. Sometimes people treat you as a servant and see you as nothing more and you don't always clean up the most pleasant things. But why did I clean. Well for the same reasons that many Jehovah's Witnesses have cleaning businesses it's all we could do to make more money than a minimum wage job because we couldn't go to college. It gives many Jehovah's Witnesses a flexible schedule to work around so that they can devote more time to pioneering and other Jehovah's Witness interests. For me I kept trying to get away from it but I kept getting sucked back in because we needed the money. Now I did like working with my wife. But here's another secret all of our clients today will notice that I clean all of the bathrooms in every house. Want to know why. It's because I had bad social anxiety and if I clean bathrooms nobody would talk to me. [00:15:18] I wasn't out and about in the House of course now people know me well and maybe wish I would start talking at times but it's better than where I once was. So I learned how to find the joy and happiness in life or in my work even I literally became happier just like the title of the book. It was such a contrast to the way the cult taught me to see the world. I was taught to see it as bad and awful and to look toward the future for happiness rather than today. I started to see our own cleaning business for what it was which was helping people which I'd love to do. In fact I started to realize how good cleaning was for me. Being a perfectionist it gives me an outlet for some of those tendencies. It helps me to work physically while I listen to audio books and podcasts that expand expand my mind every day. Now I actually love what I do and the people that we do it for. In fact he's in the intro and we'll do here again cleaning kind of save my life and I'll explain why in the next episodes about our journey out of the call another book that hit me was the book mankind's search for meaning by Viktor Frankl in it. It is his tale of surviving the horrors of concentration camps. The quote that is famous from this book rings true. His famous quote is everything can be taken from a man except the one thing the last of human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances to choose one's own way. [00:16:53] Now as with everything nothing is absolute and through other things I've learned since reading this book and I've I've come to understand that although we do have that choice we may or may not have the tools needed to make a healthy choice but if we have healthy tools we can choose to see things differently. There are people in those camps that lack the tools and that gave up and died or that turn into people that they wouldn't have wanted to be otherwise. Frankel observed this and was able to see beyond those immediate circumstances. Clearly he had tools that others didn't around him. Nobody with the tools for something better would have chosen death just like those that commit suicide wouldn't choose such a course if they had better tools so as to see a way out or is I believe the depression or whatever actually blunts these tools. But I digress. It does help though not to get wrapped up in the present situation when it is negative. And to look for the good in the book boundaries by Henry Cloud I learned how to set proper boundaries with other people. This is big for both me and my wife. When you're in a cult it is difficult to have proper boundaries when the overreaches those boundaries on a daily basis dictating how to believe how to think how to behave how to feel. Back to that bite model I discussed an episode about the fog. There are a lot of narcissists and codependent people in the cult which makes sense when you think about what it takes to make a call. My wife was super codependent with me and I had my narcissistic tendencies. [00:18:33] I bought this book to help put things back in order where they should be in a healthier place. I guess actually if you think about the shows that I wasn't a true narcissist because a true narcissist would never admit that they had a problem in the first place or look for a solution. So like I said I had narcissistic tendencies. Another good book by Henry Cloud was called necessary endings. I read this probably a little too early in my awakening process to see where it really could have applied. And exiting the cult sooner. But the lesson is so good for everyone. How do you get a rosebush to grow. Do you just let it run wild and never touch it. No. You have to prune it. There are things that are dead that you have to remove so that the plant has energy to devote to new life. The same is true for our lives. There are often things that we're involved in or people that we're involved with that are sucking us dry. I like the term vampires for people like that but they really just take from us without offering us anything in return. Maybe it's a job a person or a hobby or some other commitment that just really shouldn't have a place in your life anymore because it's just not giving you anything so that you can grow by getting rid of it. You will have the energy to grow. Just like those roses I remember at one point years later looking at my wife and pointing out that the cold just took and took and took from us and it never gave us anything in return. [00:20:04] Eventually we both outgrew it and it was one of the healthiest things we've ever done to let it go. Probably my favorite book was a book called A million miles in a thousand years by Donald Miller. Now I don't know if this book had the greatest impact but I loved listening to this book. The book is all about writing a better story not necessarily a fictional one but your own. It's about editing your own life taking that 10000 foot view of it all or watching it as an outsider and looking at the roles that you were playing in it. I had notes on this book and many others but they were lost when I had a memory card that got corrupted years ago so. So what I had to do for this book is I went looking for quotes and this one really sums up the book a lot for me. The quote is. And once you live a good story you get a taste for a kind of meaning in life and you can't go back to being normal. You can't go back to meaningless scenes stitched together by the forgettable thread of wasted time. You think about it. This is so true. I'm at the point now in life free and outside of this cold. I could never go back to what I used to think was normal I want to take this opportunity to beg you if you're listening to this and you're unhappy with your life. Expand your mind read books that challenge your way of thinking or being no matter how uncomfortable it is. There is something better out there you just have to find it. [00:21:41] And by challenging those areas in which you're unhappy you're likely to find a way out sooner. If it's not for you. Find out now. Don't wait. Find out now. You know Jehovah's Witnesses often talk about people like me that leave and they say that I left because my feelings got hurt in the congregation or because I just wanted to go live some the botched lifestyle and then in that way they can trivialize it. Well I never sought to leave. I had no intentions I could have never imagined that I would leave Jehovah's Witnesses. It wasn't one thing it was a process of learning that took years. And once you learn something good and healthy you can't go back to that toxic wasteland. It's over. They shouldn't fault you for it. But they have to in order to justify staying there themselves. Another quote from this book is this the human body essentially recreates itself every six months nearly every cell of your hair and skin and bone dies. And another is directed to its former place. You are not who you were last November or think about it. Your body is changing so quickly while so many people stay stuck in the same mentality and emotional space what could happen in your life if you took the time to change your perspective on life. Your emotional health by learning new tools or whatever is troubling you in life. So I'm going to take this opportunity to tell you that crabs in a bucket story if you go crabbing and you put crabs in a bucket. Some will try to escape if you don't have a lid on it. [00:23:24] However as one gets close to escaping the others will actually grab it and pull it back down. Now there may be simple reasons for this but it's a good illustration for how humans behave in a group. If you try to escape from your present situation you try to write a better story as the book says there are going to be people that it shines a light on that will try to pull you back down. After all if you can change in your life that makes them feel bad because why can't they. It's like you are doing this to them. They take it personally and rather than being happy for you and celebrating with you they might actually try to pull you down. Now that's not to say that well-meaning people might actually see something that you're maybe you're writing a story in which you're about to drive off a cliff but assuming you're doing healthy things you may have to do them and leave some people behind. It's just a fact of life. For example I had mentioned before that we had a mounting tax that I listened to the Dave Ramsey Show for years if you like podcast you can listen to it as a podcast as well. And he also has a number of books. They're all about how to handle money basically in a nutshell if you have debt. You are the gazelle and Adele is a cheetah trying to run you down you should run as quickly as possible to get away from debt before it gets you. And once you get away from that Cheetah stay away from it. [00:24:52] Well the time came when we got a bill in the mail for $50000 that we owed in back taxes. It was during our awakening process and I was seeing my efforts pay off in other aspects of life. So I told my wife that although there's no debtors prisons we were going to have to do some hard time if we were ever going to pay off what we owed. So we discussed our path out. I remember telling my mom that we were going to work super hard to pay off our debt like that gazelle that's running from the CIDA she told me in no uncertain terms that I would fail and that even if I did manage to get out of things these are just fall apart afterward. In other words your poor get used to it. Things can't get better. Crabs in a bucket trying to pull me down. I'll say the story for how all that played out. And so later but let's just say that she was wrong. And those crabs often are. There was something in my life that was lacking and I could never quite put my finger on it. And so one day it hit me. In fact it was something it was a big issue between my wife and I. She would always ask for this one thing and I could not give it to her empathy. Empathy was a word that was not in my vocabulary. If you had a bad life it was just because you made bad choices. And if you just make better ones than you'd have what you wanted right. I mean basically you're an idiot. Go fix it and be happy. [00:26:21] Of course this lack of empathy was directed at myself as well that black and white attitude with no allowance for where people are on life where they came from what tools they might have their mental or emotional makeup and so on is so ugly. Well I learned it I learned a lot about emotional intelligence something of which I had zero. I grew up in an emotional desert where emotions were bad and to be avoided at all costs. I learned the art of perspective taking to try to put myself in someone else's shoes. Of course that's something I've heard a million times when nobody told me how to do it. And so I learned to try to see things through the eyes of other people something that actually I guess I kind of on a level never even gave any credence to. One book that helped was called the emotionally abusive relationship by Beverly Ingle. It helped me to recognize emotional abuse. Another good book was called it was called Healing the Shame that binds you by John Bradshaw. It was another excellent book that I lost my notes from. But the one thing that I took away from it was to feel compassion for yourself. And whatever happened to you often people that are abused in some way feel shame about it as if it were somehow their fault. The book said to get a picture of yourself at whatever age you were when something happened to you. For me I got pictures from right before my family became Jehovah's Witnesses and things that changed. I scanned that picture in. [00:27:56] I put it on my phone so that every time I use my cell phone I saw this picture. Look at that image. If this is if this speaks to you get your own picture of yourself. When when you were a child and something went wrong. Look at that image and feel compassion for that little boy or girl. I remember looking around at other kids and who they were and trying to imagine them up against what I was up against at or around that age. It was a very healing experience. When you see the innocence of a child and to realize that that was once you in fact I'd have to say that this book kind of on some level I think along with these other things I think that in the trajectory of all of this I've kind of gone back to where I started as that kid with healthy emotions before everything got shut down in one of the books I read. I don't remember which one but it referred to emotions as being your emotional state is like a pipe. It's like plumbing. And so if you have any one of those emotions that is plugged up then the emotions can't go through that pipe anymore. Like a clogged pipe. So you have to learn to let all of those emotions flow freely if you don't then it will impact the others. The others will be stifled or plugged up as well. One of the most powerful books that I read have a lot of notes on this one was called the power of vulnerability by Bernay Brown. I first saw one of her TED Talks on vulnerability. [00:29:42] In fact I'll have looked for it I found it and I will link it up on the podcast page podcast page 2 in case you want to watch it. It's a free sneak peek into some of what this book is about. Coming from my world vulnerability was seen as a weakness especially kind of in my family as a male. You weren't allowed to be vulnerable or have feelings. I was bullied also at home by my dad. And then at school by other kids I felt vulnerable and that vulnerability was never a good thing. But this book changed all of that. I learned that often the tools that we use as children to avoid pain those those coping tools that we have as children like shutting down vulnerability. They end up being our greatest downfalls as adults. While they may work as children they're dysfunctional but they may work for survival those coping strategies all have an expiration date. So basically the book taught me to see myself and to let others see me. I can tell you from experience from being a guy that clean bathrooms so as not to be seen that hit at home for my dad so as not to be seen that to this day still walks with his head down and somewhat poor posture because I never wanted to be seen allowing myself to be seen has been incredibly freeing. Of course you have to get healthy and find healthy people to be seen by which I didn't have a choice in as a kid. But I have the opportunity now to make that choice and I have the tools to do it. With this podcast the loan is very vulnerable. People listen to this that know me. [00:31:24] People listen to this that we clean for and you know I'm putting a lot of very personal things out there but it's ok. Now they'll know me better. Don't be afraid to be known shame hides in the darkness. It thrives in the darkness when exposed to the light of day shame starts to die. Let me take a second here to tell my SJW listeners now tell your story to healthy people. If the experience of telling it is negative you might be surrounded by the wrong people. Think about it when you were in the cold you couldn't tell your story. People keep their stories to themselves and then they feel alone all the while someone else likely in the same congregation maybe even sitting next to you in a in the mall has the same story and they're hiding theirs and feeling alone. How can the court claim to have the truth when so much is hidden and discouraged from ever coming to light. Expose your story to the light. I'm thinking that after my story is done here on the podcast maybe I'll try to help others tell their story. In fact I've already had some people reach out that what they're told and others that just want me to hear their story share it. Tell me tell a friend tell someone own your own story and by doing so you start to take the power back from what happened to you. In the book The Power of vulnerability. There are two classes of people that are discussed the whole hearted and everyone else in a brown study. [00:33:03] These people that she eventually called The whole hearted these healthy and happy people and she found some differences between them and everyone else. The whole hearted play and rest more while the others see exhaustion and productivity as their self-worth. She is the one that first introduced me to the concept that guilt is it. I did a bad thing and that shame is that I am a bad person which is very unhealthy. It is healthy to have a measure of guilt if you do a bad thing to someone it remore a little bit of remorse is a healthy thing but when you take it to the point where you feel like you're now a bad person and you feel that shame that is incredibly unhealthy. I had a lot of what she calls shame tapes playing in my head. Unfortunately shame is often used to try to motivate people. It is a horribly unhealthy way to do so. As she explains shaming an addict is like giving a person dying of thirst some salt water to drink. You're just fueling their fire and sending them in deeper. And this can be applied to so many situations. In fact this was a book where I really started to learn empathy because she teaches empathy as the antidote to shame. And that was huge for me. I needed it for myself and for others. She actually teaches empathy skills in the book to be able to see the world as someone else sees it to learn to be non-judgmental which was a big one for me. [00:34:34] So not only understand someone else's feelings but to be able to communicate to them that you understand so that they don't feel so alone and to be vulnerable ourselves this message absolutely changed my life. It's hard to have narcissistic tendencies while exhibiting empathy. They are the complete antithesis of one another. I can go on and on about this book if it sounds interesting to you just get it. Actually it's not an inexpensive book if I remember but I guarantee you it is worth it and nothing else. Watch the free Ted talks. I think she even has some others and see if it's if she is someone that you that you like and that that you think would challenge you. It was a the book itself actually is very engaging if you listen to it in audio format because it was like a recording of some sort of speaking engagement that she had done over several days. She has other good books too if you prefer the written word. Speaking of empathy and walking in the shoes of somebody else there was a podcast that I have now listened to for years and that has helped me tremendously. And it is by a comedian named Paul Gilmartin. And the show is called the Mental Illness happy hour. Again that's the mental illness happy hour so if you have a podcast player and you're listening to this it might be worth taking a look at. I have taken so many lessons away from this podcast. He has one guest on each week that he interviews. And speaking of vulnerability these people get deep into their lives and what they battle with. I will warn you everything that you could imagine could be discussed in these episodes. [00:36:23] They're not really something you want to listen to with the kids in the car but you can find one for just about anything that you personally battle. He also has surveys on his Web site that people can fill out and submit them anonymously that help give insight into what people are dealing with. You might even find it cathartic yourself to go through some of those surveys and to to let out some of what you've been through. People write about everything from their shame and secrets to their happy moments in life. He then takes those surveys and reads them on the show and comments on them in a very compassionate and emotionally healthy way. He deals with his own issues and he's very open about them on the show. So you don't have to feel alone. It can be very healing to people. Now again like I said it can be very dark at times but that darkness is real too. And everything is done with a view to healing and there's humor thrown in because it's beautiful to be able to find the humor even in those dark times. That podcast was instrumental in helping me to see how much other people are dealing with behind the scenes. You have no idea what other people are going through just like nobody knew what I was going through. We cleaned for people. The only person that knew what I was going through at my lowest point was my wife. And even then I couldn't express to her the intensity of what was really going on inside of me. [00:37:54] No one else can understand exactly where you are but if you look around you you really have no idea what someone else is going through. In fact I remember how thinking thinking how stupid it was that I thought that I could go to somebody door knock on it out of the blue. Offer them some cult propaganda and then if they rejected it think that oh they do them they don't deserve the truth as if I had any idea who those people really were or what they went through on a daily basis. It was such shallow thinking and listening to the show deepen my appreciation for the human condition. I started seeing the bigger picture not this bigger picture painted by a cult about God and the goings on around us from the prospect of some great war between God and Satan. But my perspective of what was really going on around me was growing. In fact the more I learn in all of these rounds the more I realize that I don't know near as much as I thought I did. Ignorance is a license for arrogance but once you challenge what you think and start expanding your horizons you really become more humble. In fact through the mental illness Happy Hour podcast I have been introduced to various books that helped. One was called The Narcissistic Family by Robert Pressman and Stephanie Donaldson pressman when he described it I knew this book was for me. I had once told my mom that I felt like I grew up in an alcoholic family without the alcohol. Well this book was actually written as a diagnostic manual for therapists by therapists because they saw these families were the same symptoms were being exhibited as though a parent was an alcoholic but nobody was drinking in the family. [00:39:44] My dad was that alcoholic though he never touched alcohol. And my mom was codependent with him. I wish I still had the notes on this one. But if that sounds like your family read this book the last book that I'm going to mention that I learned so much from is called A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. Now this is a deep book that really finished off the last part of me that was in the way of my empathy fully expressing itself. And that was my ego and this book taught me how to just be not to overidentify with things like my religion my close status etc. just be when you strip off all those external things a way that we end up internalizing. We are just ourselves without ego. It is the ego that pushes us to do lots of unhealthy things in the end that religion has its own problems. That material thing will break or be replaced by something better. That job will end that you take that you identify with so much and so on. He actually mentions a scripture that Jesus said that if someone takes your tunic give them your cloak as well. Well the point is that you don't want to let your ego get in the way. If someone took something from you they took an item not your identity. So rather than taking it personally like it was done to you which I'll admit I still have a natural tendency to do because of ego and everyone does realize that they took a thing and not over identifying with it helps you stay away from drama. Think about it. [00:41:31] A person that loses their possessions in a fire while it hurts in that moment they typically realize what really matters their lives and the lives of their loved ones that survived. Those are the things that matter. I learned the ego comes from getting stuck in thought in one's own mind. I'm sure that with my hyperactive ADHD mind I had a very strong ego because I naturally get anxious about things as my brain tends to ruminate. The whole book is about separating things out. Don't say I am unhappy say right now I have unhappiness inside me. You see you see the difference there. Separating that. Again don't identify with your emotions as if they are you. The same goes for roles in life. People treat the CEO different than the janitor. As he pointed out allowing those roles to determine how they identified those people. Well we do the same with ourselves. Parents can identify too much with that role and forget who they are. Or maybe they try to fulfill their egos to their children. You don't have to ask how to be yourself. Just stop adding baggage to yourself trying to figure out who you are. Like more roles. People keep trying them on and search to find themselves. But the reality is we are who we are. [00:42:52] Beneath all those external things it really helps me to get me get to get myself out of my head and especially with my identification with the cult roles that were put upon me and that I then took upon myself later a point that you made in the book that struck me was that people enjoy vacations so much because on vacation each moment is new and experiential. It gets you out of your head you're being more yourself just enjoying this new place and not being dominated by ego or playing some role. I could again go on and on about this book but I just encourage you to read it as well. It is a very personal journey. In reading that book it is deep. I even feel a little out there at times a little woo for some I mean I'll admit when I read it at first I was like wow I'm not so sure about this but that's just because it's so contrary to the ego driven world that we all live in. In fact I'd probably go reread it myself because the ego never stops trying to creep up. It's something that never goes away it's just something just like anything else in life like ADHD or something else that best you can manage. It just doesn't necessarily go away. All right. I'm going to throw one more book out there real quick. If you struggle to figure out what actually matters to you in life I recommend the book The Last Lecture by Randy Pausch. This was I don't even know how long ago it was now but it was years ago. The story made headlines I think he was on Oprah. It's his story of dying with pancreatic cancer. But it's a lot more than that is really is a story about living with pancreatic cancer if you struggle to find the beauty in life. Read this book. [00:44:42] You can also look at the last lecture online and there are various videos that you might find interesting. I believe there is even video of his literal last lecture as professor. So there you have it. Contrast these things here that I was taking in with the fear obligation and guilt that the cult taught me to live my life by. Can you see how a person might start to wake up when exposed to such healthy thinking. I really hope that you found something and what I've said here today that can help you. Now you'll notice that I said that I hope this can help you. I didn't say that I hope you can help someone else with it. People have to want something better before a change takes place. And that one too isn't necessarily an internal thing for many like myself. It started because life got so bad that I really only had two choices kill myself or get healthy. I was pushed to that point. Now if you've got somebody that is already at that point directing them to healthier thinking might just help. But you don't get to determine when that point is. That's not even up to them necessarily. I never consciously sat down and thought about my options. Things looked very bleak to me. That's all I could see subconsciously though I did want something better. I just didn't have any idea how to find it. So don't use this information to point it at someone else and how they need to change. Use this for yourself. If someone else needs to change. Change yourself first and then by your example you might attract them to that change. [00:46:25] When the airplane is going down you have to put the oxygen mask on yourself first before you're in a position to ever help anyone else. Remember too that growth is a process. If you want to grow muscle you first have to exercise and break it down to build it back up. It can be a very painful process. You just have to be willing to endure it for what it is. On the other side it isn't about what you want when it comes to making change. It comes down to what are you willing to endure. And people have different levels of endurance. Life is a race that everyone has to run at their own pace. Next week I'm going to get into the stretch that stretch of my own race. Were these things that I just told you about and that I learned came into play. I'm going to tell you about our journey out. My wife was right there with me in all of this Shih-Tzu enjoyed these books and was influenced by them. We didn't know how much they would influence us and we could have never predicted where they would eventually lead us. I'm excited to tell you how things worked out how we got there. Some of the odd things that happened on the way. [00:47:34] So I really do appreciate you listening. If you like this or think that it might help somebody else please subscribe so that you can get each episode as they come out and tell others about this. I'm putting this out into the world to be of help and it's not going to help anybody. Obviously people don't spread the word. I don't have a big podcast network behind me. I don't have the cache of Leah Remini. That allowed her to do a series on Scientology. I'm just a guy that lived a certain life that wants to expose what literally millions of other people around the world have gone through. There are over eight million Jehovah's Witnesses and scores of ex Jehovah's Witnesses out there. There are millions more that have family or friends that are Jehovah's Witnesses that they might be concerned about. Take this to them so that they can see what it's like. And if nothing else maybe it just helps somebody to feel less alone. Visit my site at W WW. This J-ws life dot com if you want to discuss this further there will be a place to comment below each episode that I put out so there can be a discussion. Ask questions give suggestions or if you want just say hi. I might answer them on another podcast or maybe have fun you know. Of course I'll engage in the discussion there but maybe there's something that can help me to even change this ASPI has to make it better. Remember that others are fighting things that you might not realize and give them the benefit of the doubt. [00:48:58] Love others do no harm and go be happy. [/expand]

CMR-3-Interview-Grant-Tanner-Conversion-Marketing-Radio-Ben-Willson.mp3   [00:00:03] Welcome to Conversion Marketing Radio. Uncovering the secrets of how to convert your dream clients Into paying customers. If you're here To learn about maximizing Your business, Without wasting money on "Vanity" results, then consider subscribing to this podcast. And Now, Here's Your Host, Ben Willson.   [00:00:24] Hey Guys, Welcome to Conversion Marketing Radio. I am super excited for today we have a special guest on the show. His name is Grant Tanner; someone that I've known for quite a while and is an absolute rock star at selling. He's also taken into the Internet marketing world and even quit his job recently to do so. And I can not believe that the Internet is just trying to prepare itself for brands and he's able to do what he does selling on the Internet.   [00:01:00] It's just going to change everything. So welcome Grant. Thank you. Absolutely.   [00:01:07] I know Grant from when him and I used to be at the small consulting agency in the health care industry and Grant actually was he came in to be a business development guy and to absolutely change the way that the company was selling their services. And so I wanted to kind of pick Grant's brain because he's known for selling being some of the best sellers and all his companies and businesses that he's been in. And see what some of his tactics strategies his secrets are of how to close any deals.   [00:01:41] Yeah absolutely.   [00:01:43] So before you get into a sale is there any secrets any tricks you do anything to get your mind repaired.   [00:01:55] Yeah I mean depending on the context right. So.   [00:01:59] I like to look at sales and some of my formal sales training is you want to look it's you know I've I've been formally trained as more of consultative or more consulting as opposed to selling like you're like teaching people or you want to have a conversation with someone.   [00:02:18] OK. And really the whole thing is you want to.   [00:02:23] This you want to you want to find the facts you want to discover their issues.   [00:02:28] You want to learn about their needs and you want to really when it comes down to is what is driving them right. What is their ultimate motivation?   [00:02:40] And so there is there is some formal sales training is called Find.   [00:02:44] If I end the facts issues issued these drivers and that can be more of a foundation or a way of selling.   [00:02:52] Right. So we use that we use that in the financial industry a lot of people would come in and kind of start with the facts. Hey what brings you into my office today and why are you here and what can I do for you. You know sitting down and having a conversation and yet they come in and say hey here's my issue right the lay down an issue and they say Oh well I am wanting to open up college savings account for my kid or I want to do this or that. And then you go from the issue to me. OK so really the ultimate need is you're going to need some X amount of money you're going to need X you know down in the future and ultimately you want to kind of get to the whys you know like why is that.   [00:03:34] Why is that even important to you.   [00:03:36] And then they can open up and say oh well it's always been my dream to pay for my children's college education because I want to see them succeed in life and that's on my bucket list. Right.   [00:03:47] And so you can get to that as you can discover really what drives them and what motivates them or another way of saying it is a lot of people sum it up is the one word in what pain. Right.   [00:03:59] What is the prospects. Pain. Right. What's the pain point?   [00:04:05

Ricky Diaz – S1E16 New Media Lab with Rob Southgate       On this episode, Rob’s special guest is Ricky Diaz, host of the Primatech Files Podcast and blogger for TVBinges.com.  Rob and Ricky discuss strategies for getting guests, launching a successful podcast, and insights into his social media strategy. Learn more, subscribe, or contact us at www.southgatemediagroup.com.  You can write to Rob at southgatemediagroup@gmail.com and let us know what you think.  Be sure to rate us and review the episode.  It really helps other people find us.  Thanks!    Ricky's Twitter @rickyjdiaz / Podcast @PrimatechFiles Rob Southgate’s Twitter @RSouthgate Email  southgatemediagroup@gmail.com Website  www.southgatemediagroup.com/newmedialab Patreon  www.patreon.com/SouthgateMediaGroup Pinterest www.pinterest.com/SMGPods/new-media-lab/   SHOW HOSTS: Rob Southgate SHOW EDITOR: Rob Southgate PRODUCER: Rob Southgate   #NewMedia #Podcasting #Business #YouTube #Blogging #Vlogging Transcription 00:00:00 In this episode of new media lab is brought to you by tweaked audio to get awesome headphones. Go to tweet dot co dot com and use the coupon code Southgate to get thirty percent off free shipping and a lifetime warranty or you can get through the link on our website Southgate media group dot com. Welcome to the new media lab. I am your host rob Southgate day. Very special s I have Ricky the as he is a podcast from our network. And he does the private tech by which is a show all about the show heroes. It's been really successful for us. He gives us a lot of insights into his social media strategy and kind of how that show organically grew into being such a large force. So here he is Ricky as Ricky thank you so much for joining me here in the new media lab, this has been a long time coming man, I I I was really excited to see that we could line this up for those that don't know Ricky Ricky is in the UK, I'm in the United States, and we've got some time differences there, and we're both super busy. So getting you on here. This is literally the first time we've spoken to definitely I just wanna say. Before we get into this just wanna say, thank you. Rub. Putting up with me, and my OCD, and how particular I can be. I know it's what me a while to Lilith to get used to it. So I'm glad that you know, it's been clear sailing with you as well. So yeah. 00:01:44 Oh my gosh. You're OCD doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I feel so blessed to have you here. A Martin I talk about that all the time. And that's another funny thing before you started doing prime attack. Ricky does the private files for the Southgate media group and four you started doing prime attack files, which is what we're here to talk about. You you were working for TV benches show ratings TV, which were partnered with and it's funny because we were talking online, but you were like the only one from there that I didn't know at I kept getting these notices from Ricky like loves TV McHugh loves movies and Katina's, and I'm going who is this. How how does he not hitting my radar this? And then one day Lilith sent me a note said Ricky, and I are doing the show, and I was like how do you Lilith, and I guess we just hired Ricky. So I it's great. But I think it was a long time coming for this to happen. Definitely. So Ricky tell us a little about yourself before we get into prime tech vials. What's your background? You're a new media person. That's for sure. So let's hear it. So yeah. Basically, I work in post production over here in the UK a kind of been doing it for a couple of years now. But most of my stuff comes from. Well, the the beginning of the story is by see I went away on cruise ships for a couple of years, and I I didn't watch TV. And when I go back, I just ended up binge-watching loss stuff and found the joys of Twitter from Twitter, I met Kyle, and blah, and then it will kind of started from the like I'd start joining up with them to from. We love we love TV more to show ratings to TV binges. And then fruit Kyle is where I met kind of Lilith, and that's where primates at clause came from now premature files, but I don't want to get into that too much yet. Because I want to talk about what you do a little bit proprietary files is about heroes. Are you a huge heroes fan is that why that niche attracted you, or did you just see it as an opportunity? 00:03:53 Oh, no. I've always been like a really big here. I was found. It was one of the TV shows. I used to love is a I'd say a teenager. But. Yeah, it was it was one of the shows that I I re-. Really got into inside light checking back on the mythology because there was so much extra content. The heroes. It wasn't just the TV program. There was like comic books that was like online games. They had a. Oh, jeez. And I was checking all of the out, and then when it ended I was working on all PG boards, and like all my knowledge from heroes came from that all PG Boyd because I was trying to make you as canon as possible while diverging at the same time, and I was on that site for a good couple of years. Then that was it here. A kind of left there to go traveling than when I came back started working for Kyle, and blah, and then heroes reborn came out. And I was like if there was one show I wanna pug cost about it's going to be here rose so reached out to Lilith and the rest is history. Yeah. The rest is will the reason that I wanted to have you on number one. I wanted to talk to you about your social media strategy. I wanna talk about you know, how you've done some of this stuff. For the listener the reason that I specifically wanted to talk to Ricky is with prime attack files, which from a from a standpoint of TV shows is pretty niche. We think about it heroes. Reborn was how many episodes dozen. 00:05:20 Yeah. Thirteen episode series. That's that's bringing back a series. That's years old that only lasted what three or four seasons full. And and with all that behind it. You have so far put together a hundred sixty four episodes or actually more in the in the can here and your your numbers from a download perspective are like quadruple, our highest show was the is the niche isn't it in it is niche? Yeah, definitely heroes was always kind of like a big. It was one of those shows that came about just a run round about the the good the sweet spot of TV in the second. And I think they called it the second viewing experience so like Twitter, and I think they had like little things that you could watch in the commercial break. So that kind of stuff, and it was one of the first TV programs. I remember I think lost was big on it as well. But that was the whole mythology behind it that you kind of have to look if you were really big fan online, and they kept to the little people that way, and they kind of stayed. And so I think the online heroes fandom is as is as much as sometimes it infuriates may it's one of the most passionate fan bases. There is whether they like it or not so yeah. Yeah. Well, it's to me. It's just fascinating. And you mentioned lost lost his actually when I've talked to other other podcasters to pop culture stuff lost his touchstone where the the two that come up every time the say, the reason I started podcasting was fixation on loss in a fixation on X files. Then I really think you've hit on something. I think there's a fixation on heroes. 00:07:05 Does that most people don't put at the top of their mind? But as soon as you said, I wanna do prime attack files, I'm going to be talking heroes somebody who hadn't myself who hadn't thought about heroes in awhile got really excited and started thinking, oh my gosh. I used to read all this stuff. And I hope the comics are good. I got like right back to it. The ironic thing is I didn't watch a single episode of heroes reborn podcast. So that's right now that was intended to be a thirteen week series. And they'd they said that from the beginning. But have you heard any rumblings are they bringing it back? No. I don't think at the moment when it when it was a when it finished its run. It was it's it's a very click by thing to say about the show has been canceled. But they always said that it was going to be a, well, it just depends on your point of view. Like, Tim crane has always said it was going to be a one and done. But you know, if it was more kind of a need for it. That there was a possibility of it coming back, and it didn't do too well in the writing. So a lot of people would said, oh, well, you know, that's what they would say. If it if it was going to come back. It would have come back. But obviously because it's it's been canceled. But on show. 00:08:20 I don't necessarily buy that with this. I think that that this series was meant to be a chapter and this series seems like something that has a joy, call it a second life it. Yes. It can live in other formats kinda like Buffy has gone onto live comics. And yeah, those comments are popular, you know, I think this is the same type of thing. So I I don't know how much I buy that is click beta or really that was just kind of wear their head was at and Tim kring. Thanks. I have other projects I can do this. I think it's just one of those things that like he had the time. And he had the story that he wanted to tell and he wanted to finish the story, and they will give him this opportunity. He took it. And now it's just a case of waiting a couple of years, hopefully, not five for him to think of another story. We told to quite a few of the riot is one of the riot is is really quite friendly with us. And he's told us that you know, they they do have a plan for a second season of heroes. They they would include it review. Because that's a separate chapter. They would call it something else. But they actually have an idea, and it will be something completely different from what we've seen, and that's all I could get out of him because he didn't want to tell me anything else. 00:09:33 I don't wanna push you away. Right. Right. So you've been really successful with the podcast. I n you also are a blogger, right? Yes. So do you do any blogging related to the prime attack files? Or is it literally just the show notes that you deal with? Oh, no. When when heroes reborn came out. I was doing the TV binges. I was doing a a five things recap on the episode and stuff lead to look out for in like kind of stuff that you could that that was being launched in future episodes when you so lucky enough to get a free game. So yeah, we we got a couple of days before he got released to the general public, and it took me like three days to complete or my ipad, and I had to complete because I had to get it out before before the general release. So yeah, we got very lucky in some respects. Like, there was a magazine that came out a managed to speak to one of the senior says on it because it was. Coming out that that much over here in England or I couldn't find any ended up sending me free copies. We go very lucky with some of the stuff. But you know, you have to take those opportunities while you can get it. No this. This is part one of the strategy that I wanna talk about you did get a lot of attention. You guys ended up on TV Canadian. What was it entertainment tight? 00:10:55 Yeah. You ended up getting some great interviews. You got some as you said some early release stuff. How did you go about doing that? And this is we're gonna framework in TV, but anybody listening. I mean, whatever your show is about whatever your blog is about their YouTube channels about you've got a subject, you're working. So you can take these ideas and kind of go out how did you attract that attention? Well, it was my my stuff was done through Twitter. I know there's loads em. You know, we've got all this. Social media's we've got like, the we go Facebook tumbler klama, but most of it was from Twitter and most of every all of our content stems from Twitter, and then the rest kind of was just placed on the other four on the other social media platforms. We manage to get followed by quite a couple of big heroes. Reborn. Kind of official site says the heroes universe which was very big. And we even go followed by the heroes official account. One of the biggest things that kind of was. Aw, was all the Lynch pin of everything was a Facebook group on Facebook cooled heroes fans unite unites and one of the admins of that when heroes was first about they were doing a lot of the stuff that we were doing they're covering everything from heroes. And I guess they took a liking to us and they helped us out with a low of interviews. And we got a like it was interviews from heroes prime. So. 00:12:32 Oh, the original stuff. But then she managed to gals quite a low of of the heroes. Reborn people. And from that that kind of from getting the interviews with like hit Tim crane was a really big one. Who's the creator of the show? Yeah. Then I think each one to get from that that's where everything kind of stemmed from and we were able to get the executive producer on the executive producer was able to put us in touch with a costing. And we live was really big on talking to one of the causing agents. And then you know, he was able and then we got a couple of the riots to follow us, and they quite like they like to a law, and you know, we've interviewed a couple of them a couple of times. So yeah, it was just really a lot of being in the right places at the right time. The Facebook group also got us on sir AT Canada, because I was put in the episodes on the Facebook group as well as mice live things. And the guy the producer from anti candidate sore and said, I'd love the toll ta and. That's where that came stems from while you actually had there was a lot more than just being in the right place at the right time in just said, I I I have a couple of questions. This is one of those episodes. I'm gonna have to go back and take notes, and then we listen again and take notes again, I have a feeling so so you you get in with this group this Facebook group, and they're connecting you how does that go and how how does all of this go because I know personally like we interviewed Doug Jones. And that was a big interview for me. I'm a big fan. And I don't do a lot of those types of interviews. Just because I just don't, but this was one I I wanted to grab and the way that happened was I tweeted something I tagged him in it just because it was relevant to him. He wrote back and said all thank you so much. I said is there any way I could possibly interview you he gave me his PR person. And we set it up is that the route you've had to go or is it been more? 00:14:32 For they've contacted you and said, I love to be on or have you seen their name pop up and you've written back and said, hey, can we make this happen? What what's out different ways? The Tim Tim kring in view was sell through the puzzle on the heroes. Reborn. A Facebook group. And she goes a lot of other interviews with people from heroes the original series, but a lot of the heroes prime a a love the heroes. Reborn interviews with Don initially three tweeting. I basically would sell the notification. So as soon as they tweeted anyone from the show, whether it be cost crew, right? As I wanted to speak to everyone about their opinion on the show. As soon as they tweeted, I would get a notification. I would tweet them directly straight that sometimes. But look, I run a hero's re heroes reborn pub costs would you have time to to for an interview. And, you know, some people got back to us like eve hollow pretty much as soon as she got the Email got the tweets she said, yes. And just told it's a follow us in. Then we arrange the time for that. The same thing happened with quite love them. Like crazy. One of the riot was exactly the same. But I think that crazy also had kind of heard of us through the I don't know if they blowing smoke into, but, you know, Zachary was like, we listen to you guys in the writers room, and I think that helps us out a little bit. But you know, again, I don't know if he was just being very nice. But yeah, a lot of the white is kind of go in with talking to us about it. And we're going to kind of try and do more stuff with that. Because. 00:16:13 Heroes reborn. The DVD came out and the like some of the extras were not very good. So we which wine to do a commentary with the rights and us all what a great idea. That's the idea. We've already talked to one guy we've already told the two of them. And they said they're up for it is just about trying to find time. So yeah, now, you said something in there again that I wanna I wanna go back to and this is something that I've I've gleamed we've had by the way people that listen to this show. We've had Lilith on as guest and the next person minute bring up his Troy Heinrich who was the first or second cast. I think Lilith might have been one. And he was number two. Troy does a blacklist podcast that has been nominated in has done. Really? Well, and in what you just said it reminded me of Troy because they have had the same type of experience with the writers room blacklist. And I think that might be a key. If you're doing TV more if. You're doing film or any type of subject you find out. What that what that step is? And maybe re tweet to that group. I know I'm sure heroes probably has a hero's writer's room Twitter account. Correct on doesn't oh. So basically when a soon as heroes. They started announcing everything for heroes. Reborn live from the the costs. I pretty much was on IMDB every other day looking at and seen who was Ryan episodes. I will try and find the Mansueto I made a comprehensive list of pretty much everyone who was on the show. Whether it be like, a recurring carrots, a couch who's on unit for one or two episodes, who I really liked the main cost the riot is some of the the makeup all is the musicians, everyone I made a comprehensive list on my on the primates at falls twits. And everyday I would search through that see what they were talking about. And I would have them. No fly like, it would notify soon as I tweet it. So I will straight away just being able to say would you have time for an interview talk about your time on heroes? And you know, a lot of the kind of not we got quite a few of the secondary carrots is. And I appreciate that so much because some of them were some of my favorite characters. 00:18:32 And the rise really helped us out as well. I think so. Yeah. So yeah, I think that there's a lot there to unpack in it. Don't just go for the prime people you want to try to build those relationships in. They opened the doors to other things. Yeah. Now, we keep talking about Twitter. And we keep talking about that at one point. I ask you what your strategy was because you were getting a lot of attention. Your response back to me was I don't have any you said, I have OCD. I just do this a lot. And then he and it's funny because you don't know this. But on my end, I was trying to figure out why it was blowing up so much. So I started trying to analyze all the little pieces at one thing. I did was I took four days of tweets, and I wrote down when you tweeted, and what you tweeted, and that was when I ask you about your strategy. And when you said, you didn't have one I found it really interesting because you naturally did a couple of things one was you did almost. You were almost right on for the eighty twenty rule. Twenty percent original tweets eighty percent, retweets. I mean, you were almost spot on with that in that for day. Mark. You also didn't have I tweeted three. And then I tweeted at five I it was just kind of throughout the day. There wasn't a rhyme or reason to it. But I did see a consistency. And it seemed like it could be unobtrusive. Now, if you're working from lis-, I'm sure that makes it really easy to the re tweeting thing because we're getting those notifications, right? 00:20:05 So it was just to me. It was really telling that it wasn't so much about the strategy as much as it was about the consistency of just doing it. And being cognizant of who is involved with the show. Well, it it will kind of started with the kind of pre heroes reborn because as soon as we found out the show was coming on mainland. Start thinking about how we can incorporate people into it because you need an audience. Some we didn't know, you know, this show had been off the F like five years. So we had to try and bring them back into it. So the first thing we did was we're going to do a weekly live tweet, and we're going to rewatch the episodes, and then directly off towards me, and let us we're gonna do those episodes as appalled cost separately. And that's how we started. We started off with really small numbers because we only had a few people who joining in. But we kept those loyal fans, and they came with us the whole way through and that's kind of where it started. So what would happen was? It was basically I I would have a routine. What I would do. I would wake up first thing in the morning, maybe about an hour and a half before I actually had to leave the house, and I would go through Twitter, and I go through the heroes hashtag, and I would respond to everyone, and I would re tweet anything that was good. I did the same with the heroes reborn. And that would be like a good forty five minutes of my first thing in the morning, and then maybe about lunchtime. I do exactly the same thing. But because obviously, you know of the time difference it would show up a different time in America. Like, it would be like the middle of the night. But it was something that people who would follow us would be able to look through when they go up. And I would always make sure it was the last thing that I did. So I was doing like that three times a day. I was doing like I was going to the hash tides of anything that was relevant for heroes or anything that I could join make relevant to hero. So like if there was national sibling diode put as many siblings in heroes. 00:22:05 As I could in a tweet. And I would sweep the out. We got really lucky that an eclipse happens in the right? Good timing. Yes. So we just like that was old day of may trying to find time of checking heroes and tweeting everyone re tweeting and as soon as someone responded, I would follow them hoping for them to follow me back in the you know, we kind of build up an audience that way. And then you tell them like, oh, we do a weekly rewatch. If you want to join us for a live tweet and anytime someone would join us for the live tweet. We would shout them out on the on the episode. And as soon as the episode went out, we would sweep them saying you got show on the episode. Make sure you listen, and that kind of stuff, and we it like everything from heroes reborn kind of followed that same pattern. We would also people for feedback. And no matter what feedback they gave we would read out. And then we would sweep them. When the episode came out we use tweeted to a couple of the because. Anytime someone from the heroes. Reborn costs tweeted out. So we we tweet at them. And they tweeted back, then I was like, okay. They're on the list. And I would have a list on my notes on my iphone of people. We would sweet every time a new episode came out. So we'd always always tweet out the same bunch of people. And if Austra while you know, I figured out that they were getting annoyed with I'd take them off. And I'd only do it if it was relevant to them. Obviously if we were bad mouthing people, we will take them off. 00:23:34 Right. But yeah, it it just kind of became a routine of stuff that I was doing and that was it. Yeah. Interesting. Now, you mentioned other social media, you mentioned, I mean, you've got clamor you've got tumbler Facebook. Now, you said that you basically create the content that you're gonna use to push out from Twitter. Just push it to those things. Do you do any type of strategy for those other formats, or is it really just you push it from here? And it goes where it goes literally by if new trailer came out, I would watch the trailer, and I would screen show any news scenes, and I would make like a an analysis of it for twit. So like something for one hundred like the characters that we needed. And then I would do exactly the same thing with that on the Facebook and on the tumbler, but I would elongate it because you you've got more more words to play them. Okay. All right. Just depends. That's important. So you're not taking your tweet and just pushing it to Facebook tomorrow. No, I'm your. Okay. All right. Just depends. Zuni Ted putting it there. But adding a little bit changing it slight. Yes. That is important Ricky. So an idea I'm really high on right now that I'm trying to develop for us NAN when I say us, I mean, we have eight shows in this network. It's going to be a hundred by by Christmas. And I can't obviously handle all of those you see how hard it is to handle one. 00:24:57 Yeah. So I'm actually writing like a playbook for everybody. And we talk about it on here. I'm kind of sharing it as we explore this. But a big thing that I'm high on right now is this idea of you create something so you take an episode of prime attack files, and it we pretty much do what you do you you find different ways of of sending out there. But my my big thought right now is how do you create multiple pieces of content off of that one piece of content that you can use for social media? So what I mean is you mentioned your top five list, you mentioned clamours. So you make you. You make five clamours off the episode, you make sure you send those out you make sure that you have screen caps in your tweet. Some of that stuff out you make sure that you have a blog post if you can or whatever. So it's not just the one piece of content getting pushed out there. Doing that. It sounds like you're naturally kind of doing that. I'm trying to develop a strategy little bit more. So it's a little easier for people to grip onto my question is how much do you push that one piece? So let's say you make your blog post your top five. Okay. You tweeted out when you're done. You put it on Facebook. You obviously stagger. That correct. Yeah. How often do we know? Don't stagger. It pretty much if I create like something for Twitter. I would once I finished with I pretty much put it onto Facebook in some blow. Just right. 00:26:23 Yeah. Yes. Our this. Yes. Yeah. Go ahead. No. The only reason I do that is because I I've got everything in my hand there, and I can do it straight away. Snow because I could push out like a time. But I feel like if I'm going to be doing something on Twitter. I'm wise, we'll do on the other two because people might not be looking at the Twitter at that time. They might be looking at the Facebook or they might be looking at tumbler. So I to me that's how I do it. And most of my stuff is pushed out through is done on Twitter. No pushed out, and it's repeated on on that shirt ends the rest, I kind of one and done it. Okay. That makes sense. And when you do this on Twitter. So let's say you take your top five list. How often are you tweeting out that tweet about the top five list, not the other content? We're talking about we're let's say claim it. Let's say you make a clamor, and you send it out once in. It's out the either or do you say you don't I'm gonna send out a clamour on Monday. And then I'm gonna wait twenty four hours and Senate again, and then I'll wait for days and send it again. Do you have any type of strategy like that no pretty much this push out? The only thing that I would alway I always push out every day is is episodes. 'cause that's like sounds really bad. But I'm just all about the download numbers shirt. So that so bit I said that's driven by so do you do you send out? So let's say it's episode one sixty four will that go out every day. One time will it go out multiple times at another question is will it go out with the same lake meeting? Do you send the itunes link do said the Google play link? Do you send the Lipson link? How do you manage that? 00:28:06 I only well, I would only do I only have indeed be I tunes link. But that's just because that's how I've been doing it. I haven't even thought about putting out different different links for it. But basically I would. So today's is my is my primary. Balls day. That's when new episode gets released. So I will release I will do a tweet, but each individual putt catches service. And then I will finish it with the itchy. And then tomorrow around about the same time, which is about eight o'clock, my time, maybe ten just depending on when I'm tired. Basically, I will just do it. In case you missed it tweet with a generally while we'll put the the newest episode. And then at the moment, I'm doing old episodes underneath it. I'm just doing one one extra what moving up one a day. So I will do that old throughout the week until the next week and the next Wednesday. I will put the new episode, and then someone so forth. Any case you missed it. Yeah. Yeah. And if like say, we're doing the COMEX once I finished the fi once I get once we get to the fishy, which the loss one, why would probably do as all put swoop to in case you missed it tweets out a day with all five episodes. So that you can listen to them continuously. Interesting interesting now fan interaction, you you're obviously dealing with them on Twitter. You're talking to people. Are you finding that fan interaction is key to this also? 00:29:35 Yeah. Well ago, we when we first thought it was only a couple of people who following us and a couple of people who would sweep out to us all the time. And you know, it was really good. Because at the end of 'cause we were doing this rewatch at the end of like the first season we were able to do a Google play a play we're able to do a Google hangout. And we had about eight nine people on that, which you know for a little show which had been off the F like five years. I was quite proud proud of it. And then we put the out possess puck cost as well. So we were able to let them know that you know, you you were involving them in everything. So it's the same with the feedback as soon as we finish one of the reward. She's we would say, okay. So what did you think of that episode? You can tweet us. You can let us know when I'll Facebook, you can let us know one. By email. We will read out anything, and we did that. And then like I said we would tweet them as soon as that episode became available to air. And then the same thing happened with the Facebook group. So I would put like every time a new episode come up. I would put a post and they were the guys on the admins on. There were really great about is just like pimping now are episodes essentially, and at the bottom of that in a common, I would want everyone who we had talked to will. He would sit in feedback. 00:30:53 I would say you got show in this episode. Make sure you listen. And then they would. And then the same thing happened on the Facebook group where I would ask a question, and then they would on, sir. And then I talked to them, and you know, it's it's always good to have that kind of fan interaction because it makes them feel Paul the the crew as we call them prime attack peop-. So yeah, it's restoring interesting. Well, what points haven't we talked about here? I'm sure that we're gonna finish. And I'm gonna have eight hundred is. But what haven't we talked about here? What points? Did you? I wanna make ranching we got lucky in the fact that primates at falls was available on pretty much everywhere that we went. It's not the thing about the name primate falls is it doesn't instantly you don't instantly think of heroes unless you're really big heroes fan. But I think it's a brand that we've been able to develop and with starting to move off into other things now. And you know, I'm as much. Yeah. We'll just leave that. Okay. Okay. Randy this important, and and take your branded at work it yet. Definitely, you know, you actually said something important there too. This is an ongoing conversation. I've had with people because we have shows with some of them have very unique names. Some of them are spot on wall monkeys podcast is about the twelve monkeys TV show. Private tech files about heroes. That may not. 00:32:16 Yeah. Ring enough said podcast is about marvel. It's about agents shield is what it was originally about. Now. All about marble. I think that in your branding. I think it's important to either be spot on like twelve monkeys or to do if you're going to do it find something that speaks to the fan prime attack vials because I was a hero's fan. I knew what that was. Yeah. Nuff said everybody is a marvel fan knows Stanley ends everything with enough said name mmediately. No, that's immoral show. Yeah. And then you make sure you have your tag, a hero's podcast, a marvel podcasts. That's how you build that brand. But worked at brand don't keep shifting it underneath. But also, we we stop every episode. We saw with the same blood, which is you know, whip hall the Southgate media group. This is prime attack falls Paul the Southgate media group heroes in heroes, reborn podcast dente will things in the heroes universe. That's how we solve every episode. And then we always end on the same end tag. All like, we have one of two enzymes, and we always end up with something heroes relates and whenever we did interviews with people. We were able to get them to. Ceo Rennes Agan, that's a nice little night as you have U S A must will note, you could have in a clamour. You could say, you know, you can have that. And that's what you need. And then you can say this is an interview with eve hollow they know isn't interview with the hall eve hollow because she says a name she says I'll tied at the end. And then the link to that interview. So yeah, you know, what it's it's funny. 'cause we when you talk about that beginning ending as a producer, and this may seem wrote to to some people listening, but to a lot of podcasters, especially new people. They don't understand that importance of having that beginning and the end and have something that builds the brand at the beginning and the end and don't stumble on. 00:34:05 Yeah. Because there's nothing worse than stumbling through the beginning of the end of your show, and it feel it you feeling like what did I just listen to? The other one it. Oh, you mentioned the the getting people to say it. I can't tell you how many people in the beginning when we interviewed people for Nuff said, or when we would even interview other podcasts talked other podcasters, they all wanted to say our tagline, which is at the mary-anne. We said, that's it. Everybody enough said, and they would also want to say Nuff said having that type of brand building is so important because the fan grips it. I know we're gonna stop moving, obviously. Because heroes is not is on. I'm gonna say hi is at the moment. Yeah. We're gonna call it. Wigan assault branding out raunchy out into other kinds of superhero shows book that on kind of model DC related because I think that's kind of another niche market that's not kind of being looked into. So when moving onto ALPHA's next and ALPHA's was very heroes. It was kind of like heroes bought Masai fi channel a bit more grounded in reality. And we've got about four or five episodes in the can. But it took us about three or four episodes to think of an end tag. And that was something I was really pushing to we needed a decent end tag. And finally got one and I'm really looking forward to like moving onto these other shows though as Ellen stain on prime attack files where it's going to be okay. 00:35:33 Yes. So basically, we're going to brunch. Everything cow, and it's just gonna be alpha files 'cause own private falls. We go about three or four different segments. We've got from its at falls, which is looking at the old episodes. We've got rebellion reborn. Which was looking at heroes. Reborn. We've got. Molly Walker which was to thinking about like the the kind of high. He kind of things we've got the interviews. We go rebellion. Reborn roundtable. Rebelling reborn review the lots of different segments on the primates at while. So we the way I'm seeing it as we want to keep that branding. And we want to keep that kind of that list of that body of work behind us. And you know, anyone who's an alpha found is probably going to be a hero's found as well. So if we only pick up people if we only pick up people now from ALPHA's, they know that when they go to all of feeds that the oldies heroes reborn an hero stuff that they can listen to as well, that's fantastic. And I have one more requests than for you. Yes. Look at the show powers yet. It's a mobile show. Isn't it though says it is power? I think as either Modelo DC, but it's one of the off shoes, but other staving off shoot I didn't even realize it was so I think that it kind of stands on its own. Own. And I think that it fits really well don't do the Cape. The Cape was terrible. 00:36:55 Ooh. The Cape complain about that one. I do my said it would bait you the next the the one that we kind of push towards which I think is going to is going to be very much like heroes in heroes reborn, and we're going to pretty much do the same kind of strategy or I will kind of do the same strategy for it which is sent site because that's coming out roughly around about the end of the year. Once we finish ALPHA's. We'll go straight into sensei, and it will basically be exactly the same. As what happened with heroes? We will do the the rewatch and live tweet and get people to get fans from that. And then we'll do sent site the new season to a weekly often. It's come out just hope that we can get everything out before the new season unlike heroes in heroes reborn where we would like mixing the matching them while. I'm going to request that you let us know when you're doing a sense eight roundtable because we did it for binge. Worthy. Ned? We love it we presented income. So, and I think that's a perfect fit to I think that makes a lot of sense with heroes analysis. I think I'll also let you know when we do the Cape as well. Can you please do please? All right. We'll Ricky thank you so much. This was so much information. I'm definitely going to have you back on this show. 00:38:14 I can't wait. I've got a process. This is a lot to take in a lot of things. I take notes on. I hope everybody enjoyed it as much as I did Ricky. Thank you again. What did you give your social media and let people know how they can get in touch with you. And if anyone has questions or comments right to him. So go ahead Ricky, so you can find you can find my podcast primates at falls on any social media, just such web, prime attack falls same thing with the with the pod catches of is just such prime attack falls on any catches as you will find us. And if you want to contact me, you can just find me on Twitter. That's Ricky Jay DSS r I c k y J D. I is Ed Ozzy if you're American all right, man. Thank you again. Ricky the problem. New media lab is a south gate media group production produced mixed edited and hosted by Robert Southgate, if you enjoy new media lab, you'll love new media labs social media Monday on the same feed. You can listen and subscribe to new media lab on itunes, Google, play Stitcher or on your favorite podcast directory, please rate, and especially review on I tunes or wherever you found our show reviews, Keith the new media lab on the charts, which helps other people find us. Additionally, please consider supporting us on patriot at patriot dot com. 00:39:32 Backslash Southgate meeting. Oh, and don't forget to visit our website at WWW, south could media group dot com slash new media lab where you can also find past episodes, and all our other content. Thank you so much for listening to media lab and heath creating.