Podcast appearances and mentions of Christian ministry

Do we see the poor, hurting, and forgotten around us with the heart of Jesus Christ? Are we willing to surrender ourselves so that God can use us to meet both their physical and spiritual needs?In this episode, we consider the life of Salvation Army founder William Booth through Christ's command to care for “the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind” (see Luke 14:12–14). Burdened by the desperate needs he witnessed in London, Booth gave himself to bringing practical help and, above all, the hope of the Gospel to those society often overlooked. His ministry embodied a simple concern for “others”—feeding the hungry, caring for human dignity, and proclaiming salvation through Jesus Christ. Even through suffering, opposition, and failing eyesight, Booth continued serving with remarkable perseverance. His life challenges us to look beyond ourselves, see those in need around us, and allow Christ to have all that we are so that His love and light might flow through us to others.

The first chapter of Esther impresses many readers as simple background information for the following story. Taking a hint from the Jewish Targums (Aramaic translations of the OT), Ron Lindo found that there are many allusions to 1 Kings 1-10, suggesting parallels between the Persian king, Ahasuerus (Xerxes), and Israel's King Solomon. Dr. Lindo is Assistant Professor of Christian Ministry at East Texas Baptist University. His publications include Literary Allusions in Esther: A Study on the Convergence of Intertexts and Narrative. He is presently working on commentaries on Jeremiah and Esther.   Check out related programs at Wheaton College: B.A. in Classical Languages (Greek, Latin, Hebrew): https://bit.ly/4btDp9I  M.A. in Biblical Exegesis: https://bit.ly/4xnLrcN 

Today's HeadlinesChina's pressure on Zion Church continues, but persecution has not silenced its faithChurches bring aid and Gospel hope to war-torn ZaporizhzhiaAcross borders and war zones, one digital strategy is connecting people with Scripture

 2 Corinthians 5:1-11. 

Oral Sex, Frequency, Desire, and Other Topics Couples Negotiate in Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma (Episode 300)   *Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.*   Deuteronomy 30:19 + 20 “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”   *Transcription Below*   Dr. Michael Sytsma has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He is a licensed professional counselor in the state of Georgia, a Certified Sex Therapist, and a Certified Professional Counseling Supervisor. He is also an ordained minister with The Wesleyan Church and has served as a staff pastor for churches with attendance from 30 to over 1,000. He is currently appointed to Building Intimate Marriages, Inc. by The Wesleyan Church, where he provides marriage and sex therapy and training to other professionals. Michael also cofounded Sexual Wholeness, Inc., a Christian non-profit dedicated to training, equipping, and certifying professionals in human sexuality.    After earning a Bachelor of Science in Christian Ministry from Indiana Wesleyan University, Michael went on to receive a master's degree in community counseling from Georgia State University and a diploma in Christian counseling from Psychological Studies Institute. He subsequently earned a Ph.D. from the University of Georgia in Child and Family Development/Marriage and Family Therapy, where he specialized in marital sexual therapy. His dissertation topic was “Sexual Desire Discrepancy in Married Couples.”    Building Intimate Marriages Secrets of Sex and Marriage   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Questions and Topics We Cover: What habits do you see drawing married couples closer together and also what behaviors or mindsets are pulling them apart? What are the different types of desire discrepancy? Can you share what the Bible says about oral sex and also share research findings?    Previous Savvy Sauce Episodes with Dr Mike: Ten Common Questions About Sex Enjoying a God-honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma  Sexual Desire Discrepancy in Marriage Secrets of Sex and Marriage   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:47) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy.   Today, I get to bring back our most repeated guest, Dr. Michael Sytsma. Our show notes are going to have links back to all of his previous episodes on The Savvy Sauce, and you're going to find out why he is invited back so frequently. Dr. Sytsma is a Christian sex therapist, an author, a counseling supervisor, and ordained minister. With a pastoral heart, a gift in teaching, and a passion for helping couples grow in marriage, Dr. Sytsma is the perfect guest for today to discuss these sensitive and sacred topics related to sexual intimacy in marriage. Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Mike.   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (1:47 - 1:52) Thank you so much. It's such an honor. It's always a joy to be with you and to talk through this.   Laura Dugger: (1:52 - 2:19) Well, I'm always looking forward to these conversations. And I just want to begin with a broad overview where we can discuss both relationship builders and some of the sneaky relationship retractors. So, what habits do you see drawing married couples closer together? And then also, what are the behaviors and mindsets that are pulling them apart?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (2:21 - 5:57) So, when I sit with couples, obviously the bulk of the couples that I work with are those that are struggling or wanting things to be better. So that may be a bit of a skewed. The couples that come into workshops even are often aware that something's not quite how they want it to be. And so, watching to see what makes a difference, exactly what you're asking. And one of the biggest things I see is just the intentionality of couples that are doing well. I think many times our culture tends to say that if you've picked the right person, if everything is going well, it'll be easy and everything will just flow well. And I find that amusing because it doesn't work in any other area of life. In our finances, we have to be disciplined with them. In parenting, we have to be disciplined with it. In our own health and exercise and what we eat. If we just ate whatever we wanted, I don't think things would be good. If we waited to feel to eat healthy, I don't think we would eat healthy.   And yet couples almost have this idea that you need to desire, you need to feel the urges to do what's healthy in the marriage. And those that wait for it and wait for their spouse to do it, they tend to get irritated and disillusioned and start to see each other negatively and pull apart versus those that sit down and develop a vision. Here's who we want to be as a couple. Here's who I want to be as a husband. Here's who I want to be as a wife. And we begin to lock ourselves into who we're becoming and who we're becoming as a couple and then live intentionally towards that. I see those couples do so much better.   Part of it is, you know, if you say to your husband, here's who I want to be as a wife. And he believes that. He believes that's your heart. Then the day that you get up, and I'm sure this never happens to you, but the day you get up and you're just not in a good mood, you know, the kids kept you awake at night or you didn't eat something that was good for you. You wake up and you're not in a mood. He can extend a ton of grace because he knows you're not satisfied with yourself. He knows that you're not going to like who you are right now and you're not going to tolerate that very long. So, he doesn't have to step in and try to control you, to manipulate you, to make you to be who he wants you to be. He can step back and extend grace knowing that you're probably going to come to him later that day or tomorrow and go, sorry, I wasn't in a good mood yesterday. It was probably tough to live with. And he knows you will reset and the same for him.   If he has a rough day and he doesn't treat you with the cherishing care that you know he wants to be, then you kind of step back and we'll give him a little bit of space. He'll figure it out. And he does. And he resets and he comes back and you make intentional steps towards that vision that you guys have co-created. Those couples tend to do really well. And I see those steps being a little different for different couples because their vision might be slightly different. But the consistent patterns and habits that I see are establishing that vision, locking into it and trusting that you'll do your work and I'm going to do mine. And we're intentional in moving forward with it.   Laura Dugger: (5:58 - 6:20) Okay. So, I'm kind of hearing start with the end in mind, get on the same page with the conversation of what our vision is. And then intentionally, it sounds like pre-deciding before you're waiting for these feelings to come up to even pre-decide practical things of how often do we want to come together? What do we want that to look like? So, am I hearing that right?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (6:20 - 9:28) Yep, very much so. And obviously there's a lot that's wrapped in it. Couples have to be able to communicate effectively, you know, hear and be heard to be able to sit down and sort through who do I want to be? Because usually a few years into marriage, we're starting to ascribe motivation and desire to our spouse that's not fully accurate. And we begin to define them different than they see themselves to be able to hear that, to be able to figure out who do I want to be? How do I work with the personality that I have? Mike works in idiosyncrasies and who's the best person that I can become? And then to be able to share that with each other.   So many couples don't sit down and really talk through. As you know, sex therapy is my primary research and interest area. And so, working a lot with couples that most of the couples I work with have never shared their vision for what they want their sex life to look like. They might've argued about frequency or certain behaviors, but they've never really shared vision. And most when I challenged them to don't have a clue of themselves really how to articulate what they want. So once that vision has been discussed and talked about, then yes, they can start to sort through, well, how do we get there? And can we give ourselves permission for some time?   I told a couple of you yesterday, guys, this is going to take decades to get to where you want to be. And you get to see his face. I said, this doesn't mean that we wait decades till we get there, but you've created a really beautiful vision and nobody can do that overnight. You're going to have to regularly work at it. And you're right. That intentionality of what are we going to do?   I tell couples my recipe is 15 minutes of connect time every day where you're leaning into each other. How are you doing? Really? What's going on? And then a one hour a week, a business meeting, I call it a working date where we sit down, we do the business of marriage. Just being intentional in how do we do this? Well, at least every other week to do a fun date where we are just going and playing together. We're not trying to work on anything. We're not talking about anything difficult. We're playing together. And then once a year, some kind of a continuing ed for their marriage, whether that be some marriage therapy, a retreat, a workshop, going through a sermon series and talking about it, reading a book together, something that gets them to really focus back on how are we doing and how do we make this better? Those are all intentional things that have to be done on a regular basis. Couples who make those, like you say, early decisions and then work to consistently follow through on them. Not perfectly, but consistently following through.   Laura Dugger: (9:30 - 10:08) I love that because the fruit of it is so enjoyable then to be married to one another if you've got this intentional relationship rather than the other option is for it to really overflow into all areas of life and be difficult. But you're clearly a world-leading Christian sex therapist, so I'm very eager to hear your insight on this as well. What would you say is the current trend for trouble areas with sex and intimacy that you're seeing with your clients or people that you meet through traveling the world to speak?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (10:11 - 12:58) Obviously, some of the standards that have been a part of human culture, especially my area of interest, is desire discrepancy. Whether that be husbands and wives who desire different frequencies, who desire different practices, who desire a different tone. I want wild and crazy and you want soft and nurturing. The differing desires are a primary area of conflict for couples. Because if you're not doing what I want, my natural instinct is to lean in and start to make you be that way. And humans don't tend to do well with pressure, so it tends to shut things down and then it spins out. So that's always an ongoing one, but that's also being my primary area of research and focus, one that I see a lot just in looking.   But one that the research seems to be showing that is a bit disturbing, and we've got theories behind what's going on, but we're seeing a decrease in sexual frequency amongst couples, a decrease in couples connecting. Whether that be connecting centrally, nurturing kind of touch, you know, the tender hugs and kisses, caresses, the snuggling together at night, or the more intimate sexual encounters where couples are having intercourse or they're engaging for sexual pleasure, we're seeing a drop in those. We saw it drop. COVID was not friendly to many aspects of marriage, and we saw a lot of it drop towards the end of that. And in many respects, it hasn't recovered, according to some of the research. So that would be an area of concern, because if couples are not connecting, many times they're acting out on their own, because it's easy, I don't have to negotiate you, there's plenty of options and ways to go about doing that. And the experiences, the chemicals that are released when we connect with each other, the associating you with pleasure, all of those things decrease, and they're critical in marriage. So that would be an area that we're kind of keeping an eye on. Is that going to bounce back? What is really going on? Is it a temporary thing, or is it just a glitch in the numbers? And it doesn't seem to be, seems to be what's happening.   Laura Dugger: (13:00 - 13:19) Wow, that is kind of alarming. And since COVID, that is so interesting. You said you have a few theories, and I know you're very scientifically based, so it's too early to report the research findings. But what are your opinions or thoughts on the reasons for that?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (13:21 - 18:05) I think in working with couples, there's a couple of things that I see play out. One is we are in an age of information overload and anxiety overload. We hear so much that is disturbing, and we don't feel like we have any agency in creating change for it. So, the internal stress level just goes up, you know, wars and economy, and things that we dislike that we're out of control with. And we see a general level of stress and anxiety go up for us right now. You know, there's some insecurity in terms of what is the economy really going to do. And all of that, I believe, has an impact on our sexual behavior.   I think, in part, we're wired for that. We think through human history. However long you happen to believe humans have been around, it's a while. For most of that time, we couldn't manage our fertility. So, if a couple engaged in sex, she was going to get pregnant. Well, if I don't have the emotional energy, the bandwidth, the resources to produce a child and to raise them, it makes sense to me that we are wired to not have desire to engage sexually with somebody. We see that especially for women. If stress level goes up, they're not interested. And I think that makes sense. I think it's a wiring in. Why would you want to reproduce if you're living in a stress-filled environment? We need to raise these kids up enough that I have the bandwidth to do another one or we need to have the food resources or whatever is needed. And our brains don't always think through the details of my refrigerator's full. We're fine. It just experiences the stress of what we're in.   Guys are the same way. You tend to have to push guys to a much higher level of stress before it affects their sexual desire. But I watch it almost every day in my office. Guys come in that have lost interest in sex. I look at their lives. I'm like, you're stressed to the max. You're working 60, 70 hours a week. You're not sleeping. You're eating like crap. You're not exercising. Of course you don't have interest. So, living in a culture that has that high level of anxiety and out of control, I think is part of what's going on there. We don't give time to just sit back and relax and realize that we are a blessed people living in a blessed time. We have a lot of resources. We could do this.   I think the other side of it is the impact of, we'll just call it social media, the impact of all of the information we're able to get. And it's curated information. And we only put online the things that we're proud of. So, we put online all of these great images. We look at everybody else's life. And sometimes in the research, we'll talk about monitoring the alternatives. I'm looking at my spouse and I'm looking at them and I'm going, wait, I like what they're doing better than what you're doing. And it creates an overall dissatisfaction that we start to try to make our spouse to be different. And they don't respond well to that. They get defensive and they push back on trying to make us different. And now we've got a power struggle going on and sex doesn't do well in those kinds of settings. Sex doesn't respond well to pressure. Hearts don't respond well to pressure. So, we start to pull away. Then we experience pleasure with you less. And I experience pain and frustration with you more. And when I look over here, it increases that because they're saying this is what it's like for them. That's not what it's like for me. I want that. And I don't know that I can have that with you. So, I want to have sex with you. And it's easier to negotiate pornography. It's easier to negotiate my fantasy stories. It's easier to negotiate something individually than it is to try to negotiate you. And so, the opportunity to experience profound pleasure with our spouse goes down and the frustration goes up and the cycle just continues to spin up. So those would be, they're interrelated, but a couple of ideas that I would have at this point.   Laura Dugger: (18:06 - 20:42) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From premarital to parenting to the empty nest phase, there is an opportunity for you. WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.   These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more. I've stayed on site at WinShape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went.   To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org slash savvy, S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   That's so insightful. I have a lot of follow-up questions, so I'll try to organize them because I'm thinking of three categories. First, about just pleasing yourself and not working with your spouse and negotiating. Then also desire discrepancy going further into that and social media. Let's start with the first one. When you see the numbers go down of how often couples engage sexually in marriage, you're seeing those numbers go down. Would you say that automatically means that they are just seeking this out themselves with pornography or doing things in secrecy? Would you like to clarify that?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (20:42 - 23:50) Not necessarily. It is worth asking the question, but I think one of the myths our society has, especially in the church and culture, is that sex is a need. If you're not fulfilling it with me because it's a need, you're getting it someplace. For some people, sex is a strong drive. It's a strong urge. I think it's designed in us that way to draw us to our spouse, to draw us to connecting, but it is not a need. Nobody dies from lack of it. I could line up a whole string of clients that practice sexual fidelity, sexual integrity, and they're not at a place that they can express their sexuality in a way that they believe is honoring, so they don't. Nobody dies. Nobody does poorly, even. Many times, they thrive. The belief that if you're not getting it with me, you're getting it someplace, that may be true, but that's not a foregone assumption.   For some, though, it is. It is something that I want, something that I desire. It meets a lot of my desires. I think sex meets a lot of our needs, a need of acceptance. I do believe that's a need. I think we have a need to be desired, to be pursued. I think those are God-reflective needs in us. God desires those things. I think it's fair to say that those are needs, and we often get those needs met through sex. Even in an altered, hollow way, masturbatory sex can give something towards those needs. It's worth asking, as somebody pursuing that individually. A couple last week, they sat down for the first time and started to talk about that with each other. What do you do? We're only engaging this frequency. What do you do outside of that? They were both surprised at what each other does, and able to step back and say, I'm challenging them to do vision work. What do we want? For one of them, they said, “I don't want this part of my life. I want it to be only you, but that doesn't always work well. What do we need to do so it can be?” The other is not so sure that they want to give up some of what they're enjoying in their individual time. How do we wrap that in? It's interesting to watch them work through the vision and try to figure out who do they want to be as couples. But to go back to your question, no, it's not a foregone that they're going to be acting out. But it's worth asking, and worth asking, is that what you want? Or are you taking that as a second best because you don't see an opportunity to pursue what's really good? If that's true, can we maybe figure out how for both of us to get what we truly desire?   Laura Dugger: (23:51 - 24:19) That's so wise. Then to elaborate also on desire discrepancy, you've shared this is your primary research area. Can you expand a little bit on, I won't hit all of these, but you had talked about it being a desire discrepancy with frequency, with the type of activity, and I feel like there was one other topic. In practices. Can you share more about each of those?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (24:20 - 27:48) Yeah, the primary conflict that comes into my office is often illustrated by frequency. Generally, in most couples, the husband, the male, has a desire for a higher frequency. The female has, her frequency desire tends to be lower. In Secrets of Sex and Marriage, we have all the numbers that play that out. What's interesting is when we test them, they're not as far apart as they believe they are. Actually, in our survey, 22% of couples were wanting the exact same amount. Only 14% or 15% believe that they wanted the same amount, which is a pretty significant difference. Couples are closer together than they think they are. And most of those couples, even when they were different, were only one mark different. She said that she would like to have sex one to two times a week, and he said he would like to have sex two to three times a week. That's one mark different. Most couples were not that different, even when there was one.   Usually what is being expressed there is, I don't know that you desire me as much as I desire you. I desire you in a way that's physically connecting, and you don't seem to. What does that mean about me? What does that mean about am I a desirable person? Would you prefer to have somebody else other than me? Often, underneath that is the fears of, do you choose me? Do you want me? Do you like playing with me? I want a playmate. I want somebody who we can just relax and be together. I want somebody who holds me and nurtures and comforts me, and you don't seem to want to do that. What does that mean about me? The fight about the frequency, but really what's underneath it is a lot of fears.   That comes into the types as well. I want sex that is wild and crazy and spontaneous. I want to be able to walk into the room and you lose your mind. That never happens anymore. I want sex that follows us having long talks where you've cared for my heart and you've nurtured me. We've gone slow and you've really just cherished me. You just want something wild and crazy and to lose your mind. How do we bring those two together? Or practices. I enjoy bringing toys in and playing. You don't like that. You like the one kind that helps you to feel connected. I want to play more. The research on oral sex that we just finished comes into that and how they desire differently around even those practices. So, all of that comes into the office. I'm sure you're hearing at one level it is we're arguing about what I want versus you want. At another level, it's what does that mean? What does it mean to my heart and how do I interpret that you don't want to do this? That comes into play pretty heavily and it's worth couples trying to unpack and figure it out.   Laura Dugger: (27:48 - 28:01) And would you say that to unpack and figure it out is that most beneficial at a neutral time or what kind of conversation starters would be helpful for them?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (28:04 - 29:54) Not to advertise, but Secrets of Sex and Marriage was designed, we wrote it, and my heart desire in it was to have a book that couples could sit down and read out loud to each that would start these conversations. So, if they read through a session or a section that talks about one type of sexual behavior to pause and go, I think this author is stupid. Nobody wants that. And to start the conversation about what do each of them like and what do they want as a couple. I think it often takes something outside of them to help get the conversation started. And we always tell couples don't have these conversations around sex. Don't have it in the bed. Have it at the coffee table the next day. Have it in structured working dates. Have it in times that we're going to talk about this. So, we're doing our best to be our best while we're talking about it. Keep those conversations time limited or you run out of energy. Step at it, work on it a bit, then step back, get a break, rethink. So, all of the stuff that we know how to do with difficult conversations in business, we bring those skills in because heart issues are involved and we're not always aware of the heart issues. If I start to get defensive, we need to step away from it because curiosity is the only thing that's going to work here. So yes, structuring it. Most couples struggle to do that on their own. They struggle to do that on finances and parenting, how to manage your mom, let alone something as intimate as sex. So many times they will need a coach or a therapist or somebody just to hold the space for them so they can have that conversation.   Laura Dugger: (29:55 - 30:08) That's brilliant advice. And I like that kind of step care mentality of getting the book and trying that first. It still is a neutral third party and I think that's a great place to begin.   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (30:09 - 30:26) I love when couples come in and say, well, we read this section and he said, well, that's just stupid. And I look at him like, what do you mean that's stupid? I think that way. And as long as they can stay curious and not critical, those conversations go really well.   Laura Dugger: (30:28 - 30:48) That's good. Staying curious. Okay. So, then you also mentioned social media. So can you speak more to this demand that people are having to, I guess the way that you've worded it in the past is the demand for fantasy that people see in social media and pornography.   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (30:50 - 34:18) Maybe a stupid example. My wife and I are looking at redoing our master bathroom closet. It's been a lot of years. The first person we had come in and take a look at it went, yeah, this has been here a while. Okay. So yeah, maybe it needs to be redone. And so, what do you do? You start jumping online and looking, well, what are people doing today? What do bathrooms look like? And you start looking at them going, wow, I want that. Well, I can't fit that space into my space. So, do I need different space? And all of a sudden, all of these desires that I have and what I fantasize about living in, what if it's not even possible where I'm at? What do I do with the tension in it? Can I look at what I've got and really appreciate it and work on making it maybe better, but not need to swap it out for something else or not stay in a state of discontent with what I got, even after it's been upgraded and redone.   A stupid little example, I think of what goes on in relationship as we watch a couple and their gorgeous pictures of their vacation or their family pictures of, it looks like this big family with all the grands and they're having so much fun together. And every time my kids get together, we have knockdown drag outs, or two of my kids won't even show up, or the grands act out every time that they're around. And my family isn't the ideal family. My spouse isn't the ideal spouse. Here's a picture of him with his arms wrapped around looking so nurturing. And I don't know that my husband ever does that to me. He's always irritated with me. And we go to, I desire to be pursued. I desire to be chosen. I desire to be nurtured. And I see that in all of these images out there, and I'm not experiencing it. And I increase the fantasy of what I could have, what I desire to have. And I look at you and I think, it's not even possible to have that with you. You're not that kind of person. I'm not sure I picked right. And we're creating something that is really destructive in the process.   When we go back a few hundred years ago, and your spouse was chosen for you, or your spouse was one of only a handful of people that were even options. I got the best of those. This is pretty good. And we're working to make it good. And no, it's not perfect. Nobody expected it to be perfect. I love the song in Fiddler on the Roof, Do You Love Me? My father told us that I'd be lucky if in time, we would fall in love with each other, because they didn't marry for love. And then realizing that over the years, they had developed a rich kind of love. That's a very different experience than we have today, where we want the fantasy right up front. And we never want to step out of the fantasy, because it looks like it's all around us. And I don't know that's necessarily good for us, because the real takes work. I don't want to work. I want you to be who I want you to be without me working.   Laura Dugger: (34:20 - 34:39) That's so interesting. And that, I guess, pairing social media and phones, which are relatively recent changes, and then COVID, and there's so much curiosity around why have things changed so much sexually for married couples since COVID? But all of these consequent...   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (34:39 - 35:33) We think in part, it was pushing couples together, because we saw a spike in activity when we first shut things down. I'm blocking on the word that we use for it. But when we first shut things down and lock people up together, we saw an initial spike, and then we saw a drop. And it's that sense of, okay, now you're wearing on me, and I don't know that I want to do this with you. I think some of it was pushing people into the online world. I talk about social media, but it covers all of that online consuming that we do, and the dissatisfaction growing in. So, when you push people together, there's plenty of that talk about that. It doesn't always do real well, unless they're intentional and work at it.   Laura Dugger: (35:34 - 37:26) Okay, that is interesting. As you say, social media, maybe putting it even with phones, even just the amount of time that people you're giving so much attention to your screen, rather than one another. And it does seem like that was from COVID.   By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles, and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living. When you read all the recommended questions in the articles, or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions, because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that. And we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.   So, this is kind of a big question, but whether it's thinking of wisdom for married couples, or even the way that they train their children so that they can avoid some of these pitfalls later on when they're adults. So, I'm thinking of the engagement and connection in real life face-to-face versus screens. Do you have any other wisdom that may actually impact them sexually someday?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (37:27 - 40:25) There are some foods that we don't eat because they're poisonous to us. There are some things we don't take into our brains because they're toxic to us. Yeah, we do. We learn to stay totally away from those. But yeah, I was thinking more the experiences that I have of even a spouse saying, “you can't have access to anything because I'm so angry at you.” I don't know if that's helpful.   Laura Dugger: (40:26 - 40:56) I see what you're saying. Appreciate the heart behind that, not controlling them and also taking the responsibility of self-discipline. So, there's another topic that many married couples may want to know more about, but they don't know where a safe place is to go and ask. So, this is the topic of oral sex. And so, Dr. Mike, can you share first what the Bible has to say about oral sex, but also share with us some of the research findings?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (40:57 - 52:46) Okay. So, we've got three more hours, right? So, if we tried to collapse it down a little bit, this comes a bit out of just working with it for so many years. We do the couples' workshops. We always do an Ask Dr. Mike. And so, through the entire workshop, today's technology, we used to use three by five cards, but today's technology, they can anonymously send a message in to me. And we take an hour of workshop and just go through those and answer them. And I am always going to get several on the subject. So, it's just been something that we know couples want to know about. Because it is a desire discrepancy, it is of interest to me. And so, we rolled questions about it into our last survey, the Marital Intimacy Project, where we surveyed 501 married couples, and a nationally representative sample. So, these weren't Christian couples, they weren't non-Christian couples, they weren't. The sample represents the 2018 U.S. Census data for the United States. So, in racial mix, racial ethnic mix, and religious mix and age, where they're at in the country. So, this is what these married couples are telling us about. So that's the background that some of this embeds in.   And your first question is, what does scripture say about it? Well, that depends on who you ask. You know, if we go back through most of church history, the purpose for sex was procreation. And anything that wasn't procreative act was considered outside of the boundary of God, because sex was about procreation. And many even teaching that once you got to the age that you weren't trying to have kids any longer, you should stop having sex, because the purpose for sex is procreation. And if you're doing it for pleasure, you're risking sin. If you're doing it for connection, you're risking sin. Well, if sex is about procreation, first, foremost, and sometimes only, oral sex is not acceptable, because it's not a potentially procreative act. That's the language that's often used in some of the church history teaching, that it needs to have the potential for procreation. And if it doesn't, then it's sin, it's outside of God's boundary. So, for hundreds of years, we have teaching that says that oral sex is totally unacceptable because it's not procreative.   If you take a perspective that sex is about connection, or sex is about play, sex is about intimacy, and sex is about pleasure, then all of that is re-evaluated. So, we have those theologians that look at Song of Solomon, where he talks about tasting of her garden. Nobody questions what her garden is in the story, the imagery that's used there. But there are those, or the flip side of that, she talks about drinking of his spring. And many theologians would look at that and say, no, no, no, that's not about oral sex. God would never talk about oral sex because that's unacceptable. It's not a procreative act. He is using imagery there to talk about the intensity of the love and the desire. This is strictly a spiritual story. And then others come in and say, yeah, no, I think it's about the physical. God would talk about that because couples do this, and it's playful, and it's fun, and it's good, and it allows them to connect. And the pleasure is not a bad thing. And when he's talking of tasting of her garden, when she's talking of drinking of his spring, they're talking about oral sex and scripture. And God talks about drink deeply, enjoy. And so, the other side of the argument says, for couples that enjoy this, there's nothing wrong in it.   Now, I think we can make a larger argument. Scripture talks about consent. Scripture talks about honoring one another. Scripture talks about desiring for one another. So anytime we step in and we start using demands, that is not scriptural. You know, Christ was profoundly invitational. He was profoundly inviting in who he was. The language I use for it sometimes shocks people. I say Christ was profoundly seductive. He had the ability to woo, to draw, that he can step up to somebody whose generational career is fishing. This is what their family is about. And he walks up and he says, “Hey, come follow me.” And they drop their nets and leave. I mean, who has the ability to do that? And it wasn't a command, you need to do this, or you're going to burn in hell. No, it was a wooing invitation. He had profound ways to look at somebody and point out their sin. Yeah, I know you've been married to what was it, four men already, and the one that you're living with is not, you're not married to him. He calls out her sin in such a way that she leans into the story. You know, how seductive, how invitational. I want to be a fly on the wall of that well, to experience what it was like to listen to him talk. And how did he draw people so well? That's who we want to be in marriage. We want to be the seductive, the person who draws, not the person who commands. So, if we take any of these principles and we start to demand of our spouse, I think that's not scriptural. So, when you ask, what does scripture say? I think it talks about honoring one another, nurturing one another, inviting, if that's something that's pleasing to you.   So, the question was, well, what do couples do? What do they want? And so, we asked all of these couples to, how often do you perform on your spouse? And what would you like? Do you enjoy it? Do you enjoy performing on your spouse? Do you enjoy having it performed on you? And it was really fascinating. You know, there's a lot of numbers that come into it. But the first thing that we learned is this tends to be couple scoring. If one does, the other one likely does. If we move into desire, that's more individual scoring. But if we move into practice, it tends to be couples. So, the couples where both of them said we never do, couples where both of them said we often do or occasionally do, and couples who said we regularly do or always do, those were clubs. The ones where he said, well, I always do. And she says, “I never do.” Those were rare, which was interesting. And then when we had it broken down into a lot of categories, but when we clumped them all together into the never, rarely, occasionally, sometimes, and often, always, we get almost third, third, and third. And so, couples have said in my office, but everybody does it. Actually, no, they don't. The largest group when we had it all broken down were couples that never do. That was the largest group. And the couples that always do was half of the never do. But if we get the larger categories, it's almost a third, third, and third, which says to me, it's perfectly okay, whatever the couple decides. Let's let them decide their comfort, what they enjoy with it, what it means to them. And that's more important than the behavior of it.   Then when we do get into, and I'm looking over here at my numbers, so I get them kind of right. We did not see a huge difference in age. I expected there to be a difference in practice with age. We didn't see a huge difference. And there was no difference in marital satisfaction or in sexual satisfaction between the couples that did and didn't. The only times we saw a difference was when they were what we would call asymmetrical. And those few couples where she said, “I always do”, and he says, “I never do.” Or the other way around. We got asymmetrical, we saw a decrease in marital and sexual satisfaction. But there was no difference in the couples that say we never do and the couples that say we always do. So, it didn't have an impact on sexual satisfaction. It had a bit of an impact on her orgasmic frequency, which that kind of makes sense. But the biggest difference was in desires and how, whether you like to or not.   So, we asked husbands, do you like to have it performed on you? And we asked wives, does he like when you perform on him? And wives have us figured out. The answer is almost identical to us. When we asked husbands, “does your wife enjoy doing this?” And we asked wives, “do you enjoy performing on him?” Husbands really overestimate how much she enjoys this, which was fascinating. Not a surprise, but fascinating. And there was a big difference between what the husband enjoys and performing on him and what the wife enjoys and performing on him. That was a massive difference. And then in the middle of that is performing on her. And they weren't near as far apart there. But once again, husbands overestimated her enjoyment. Wives underestimated his enjoyment, which was interesting. But there wasn't a huge difference. So, if we take the wife enjoying performing on him, husbands enjoying being performed on, those are quite a bit different. And right in the middle was wives saying that they enjoy it and husbands saying they enjoy performing on her. So that was interesting in looking at what they do and don't like.   Now, I haven't broken it down into some of the categories of couples. Yeah, I did look at it in terms of desire types. And there was some big differences there, which we would expect that an initiating type of a desire is going to want more versus a receptive or resistant, a little less. But I haven't broken down some of it even more detailed. Those initial numbers have been fascinating to see. And I think the takeaway is what we started with. What's your vision? What do you want and why? What does it mean to you? Let's decide what you want in your marriage. And then let's take steps to make it healthy and to be good and to move toward it. And it doesn't have to be tomorrow. We can slowly grow to that.   Laura Dugger: (52:47 - 53:09) That is so interesting. And I'm sure that's so helpful when a majority of people are submitting those kind of questions. Now you have some normative responses. And you also mentioned something in there about the different types of initiation or desire, and one is resistant. So, can you go into all three of those and define that?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (53:10 - 58:20) Yeah. We have the cultural message that desire is being harmed. And it is. That we feel we wake up and I'm interested in sex or you walk by and I'm interested in sex. I want to have sex. We think of it as spontaneous. It's not actually spontaneous, but we think of it as spontaneous. That's an initiating type of desire where we're aware of the desire before arousal. We pursue the sex for arousal is the experience of it. The second, and for that I've shifted to in the book, we talk about a car and being driving neutral and parking, but I've shifted to talking about in terms of boats, you know, that initiating desire is a speedboat, sometimes a really big engine, sometimes not so big of an engine, but it's powered, it's moving forward. Receptive desire requires arousal before the desire shows up. So, it takes an intentional step to move forward. Yeah, we can do that. And I'm enjoying doing this. Oh, my body's enjoying this too. This is good. And then the desire clicks on. So, desire sometimes may not show up till five to 10 minutes into the sex act. Now I want this, please don't stop, you know, please do it this way. Now the desire is there. That's the receptive desire. And I talk about that as kind of like a sailboat. You know, it's not powered by an engine. It needs an external force to kind of get it moving forward. But I also have to have the sails up. And what does it take for me to have the sails up on my sailboat? And what seduces me, what draws me, what helps me to move towards that desire?   And then resistant is the motor's pulled up out of the water, the sails are tied down, and there's two anchors that are, you know, doesn't matter what you do, I'm not moving. I'm not going to allow anything to move me. Or those anchors are there for a good reason, because of trauma, because of wounds, maybe that you have done. Maybe the relationship is not safe. If I get naked, I'm going to be criticized. I don't care to get naked, whether that be emotionally or physically. So, most of the time when I'm working with somebody who's resistant, the resistance is there for a good reason. And we have to figure out what's going on and how do we get rid of the anchors? Or how do we get this engine started again? And it may be physical, it may be emotional, may be relational, may be spiritual. But the resistance is going to be something has got us locked down in our sexuality, or locked down towards you. I'm still interested in sex, just not with you. And so, we have to kind of unpack that.   I do think that generally requires a third party, a therapist who's skilled in this who can work with it. My concern is even most therapists are defining receptive desires, low desire. And so, if somebody comes in and says, well, I have low desire, and they even if they realize they have receptive desire, all of the interventions are designed to increase initiating desire, rather than help somebody to nurture their type of desire, to nurture the receptive type of desire, or to figure out there's a reason you're resistant. Can we step back and create the space for you to drop the guards to figure out why you're resistant? Because he may be resistant and not even know why. He just, I'm not going to go there. And we have to create the space for him to even sit in it and start to figure it out. Or she may be, same thing for her, she may be resistant, and she might have an idea why, but we haven't unpacked it enough to really figure out what's going on. She just feels like she's broken and is being criticized by her husband. So, to step back and figure out which of those three is really going on, and how do we work with it?   So those types, within those, there are different levels, you know, we'll have an initiating desire that has a really big engine. They want sex all the time. Or an initiating desire that has a smaller engine. They don't want it all that often, but when they do, they're going to pursue it. A receptive desire that has really big sales doesn't take an awful lot to get them moving forward, but it doesn't come from within. And those that, you know, it takes a lot of work to get this thing moving forward. Is there a way we can increase the sales a little bit, so it doesn't take quite so much work internally and to the spouse? So, we're looking at types, we're looking at levels. It gets really complex, which is part of the fun of it, but part of what makes it tough for couples, and they default to the, you're broken, you don't want me, you don't like me. They default to simple answers that don't work. Mm.   Laura Dugger: (58:21 - 58:37) Okay. So, it sounds like you're saying the goal isn't to get everybody to have the engine, which is maybe where some therapists could direct them in the wrong way, but to grow in the freedom and releasing and get closer to the vision.   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (58:38 - 59:38) I was teaching this to some therapists and one of them came up on break and she says, “okay, I hear all of this, but you've got to be honest that truly the healthy person, when they've done good work, is going to have initiating desire.” If you walk into the therapy office with that, the receptive desire person, you're always internally thinking you're broken, you're immature, you're something, you're not okay. That's wrong. No receptive desire is a legitimate type. We're not trying to get the receptive person to be initiating. That's probably, I suspect that's not how they're wired. So, asking them to be that different, and they'll say, but there was a time that they were, well, yes, but that was a unique season of life where biology was very different. Now they're kind of, they're normative, so.   Laura Dugger: (59:39 - 1:01:06) That's so great. And that's what I always appreciate. Dr. Mike, you always offer hope for everyone, even the one who's locked down with the anchors. It's a, how can we start to lift those anchors? There's hope that there is change and restoration possible. And I've just loved this conversation. Deuteronomy 30 keeps coming to mind. There are two verses because I feel like you've laid out wisdom for intentionality or the negatives and hazardous results that can come from overindulging, prioritizing, connecting with our phone rather than our spouse. And so, I just want to read these two verses from Deuteronomy 30, it's verses 19 and 20. It says, "This day, I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord, your God, listen to his voice and hold fast to him for the Lord is your life. And he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." So, it's just been such a delight to have this conversation. And I know we could talk all day, but you still have a full day of work to also get back to. So where can we go after this chat to learn more from you?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (1:01:07 - 1:01:38) My primary website is intimatemarriage.org. And there are links through that to even get to like my link page that has some of the professional articles. We're putting together some little teaching videos that grab some of this. All of that can be located through intimatemarriage.org. And of course, secretsofsexandmarriage.com is the book website too. There are a lot of resources there.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:39 - 1:01:59) I highly recommend both of those. So, we'll add the links in the show notes for today's episode. And you're familiar as our most repeated guest that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, my final question for you today, Dr. Mike, what is your savvy sauce?   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (1:01:59 - 1:02:37) I think it would flow from what you were just reading there in Deuteronomy. What does it take to choose life versus choose death? I can choose death by being passive, by waiting for something to happen. If I'm going to choose life, I'm working on it. So, it goes to what we started with, a vision-based intentionality. Is the savvy sauce, who do I want to be? Who do we want to be? And how do I be intentional and consistently and regularly moving toward that? Not perfect in it, but I know what I'm striving toward and I'm being intentional and taking steps that direction.   Laura Dugger: (1:02:38 - 1:03:07) So good. And Dr. Mike, just thank you for being a safe place where we can go for these sensitive and sacred topics. I think it's going to be fascinating someday in heaven to hear all of the people saying, “oh yeah, he helped us with our marriage too. And he helped us.” So we've been so enriched because of your work. So, thank you for your investment in your work that impacts people for eternity. And thank you for being my guest.   Dr. Michael Sytsma: (1:03:08 - 1:03:09) Well, thanks for having me back.   Laura Dugger: (1:03:10 - 1:06:52) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Eric Anderson is a substitute teacher by day and the founder of Nerd Chapel by night. He has a B.A. in Biblical Studies and Christian Ministries from Taylor University Fort Wayne. His hobbies include reading, board games, swing dancing, and watching television/movies. Sponsored by Lowell author Jeff Ostrander, @Moravian Sons Distillery, Doc Chavent   Read more of his thoughts at www.nerdchapel.com where you can also learn about the Nerd Chapel schedule which includes convention appearances and board gaming events. He is one of the co-writers of the 42 Series of nerd devotionals: 42: Discovering Faith through Fandom, The New 42: God Terraforms All Things, and The Fantastic 42: A Fellowship Facing Doom with Hope. He wrote Dead False Gods: An Unauthorized Christian Reflection on Stargate SG-1; which looks at the show Stargate through the lens of scripture. He also contributed three entries to Finding God in Anime Vol. 3. You can follow Nerd Chapel on Facebook and Instagram. Listen in for a chance to win a signed copy od Dead False Gods. Copyright (c) 2026. All Rights Reserved. Emma Blogs, LLC.

 2 Corinthians 4:8-18. 

BJU Seminary Retreat 2026 Session 2

BJU Seminary Retreat 2026 Session 2

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Jon Thompson, senior pastor of Sanctus Church, a multisite church on the east side of Toronto. Jon has served at Sanctus for 25 years and has helped lead the church through seasons of growth, renewal, revival, and cultural change. In this conversation, he shares insights from his latest book, Presence: Resilient Witness in Times of Retreat and Revival, and explores how churches can faithfully witness in an increasingly post-Christian—and even re-paganized—culture. Learn to minister in a re-paganized culture. // Jon believes Canada offers a glimpse of where many parts of the United States may be heading. Churches are increasingly engaging people with little or no Christian memory alongside Muslims, Hindus, atheists, New Agers, nominal Christians, and people shaped by contemporary cultural movements. The challenge is not simply to defend Christian truth, but to communicate the gospel thoughtfully and winsomely to radically different audiences at the same time. Open the three evangelistic doors. // Historically, love, word, and power describe three ways people encounter God. Love demonstrates God's character through hospitality and care. Word clarifies truth through preaching, apologetics, and teaching. Power reveals God's presence through experiences such as healing, deliverance, dreams, and other supernatural encounters. Jon argues that churches need all three doors open because different people encounter Jesus through different pathways. Admit your church's bias. // Most churches naturally lean toward one or two of these categories. Conservative evangelical churches often emphasize word. Other churches may prioritize love through compassion and justice, while still others focus heavily on supernatural experiences. Jon encourages leaders to honestly identify their bias and intentionally elevate the areas they tend to neglect. A healthy church needs all three working together rather than allowing one to dominate. Don't let fear quench what God is doing. // Jon tells the story of a woman who came to faith out of Hinduism after experiencing visions, spiritual conflict, and encounters with Jesus. When her church removed those elements from her baptism testimony because leaders were uncomfortable with them, she felt that an essential part of her story had been denied. Jon warns that fear, theological bias, and lack of experience can cause churches to suppress genuine ways God may be working in people's lives. Choose encounter and systems. // Jon believes churches often falsely pit spiritual encounter against organizational structure. Healthy churches need both. Leaders should build systems that support what God is doing without attempting to control it. As spiritual activity increases, churches may need to adjust volunteer processes, pastoral care systems, staff expectations, and leadership structures. The goal is not to eliminate order but to make the organization flexible enough to respond when circumstances change. Understand renewal, revival, and awakening. // Jon distinguishes between renewal, revival, and awakening. Renewal is the recovery of first love in individual believers. Revival is a sovereign move of God that He initiates and ends where sin is revealed and there’s widespread healing. Awakening happens when revival leads to widespread conversion. Leaders should not assume revival is guaranteed, but they should remain faithful and responsive whether God brings extraordinary renewal or simply calls them to steady obedience in an ordinary season. Start by refusing to resist God. // Before changing structures or launching new ministries, Jon believes leaders should begin with a simple posture: “Lord, whatever you want to do, I won't fight you.” Many pastors love God but still struggle to trust Him when ministry becomes unpredictable. Jon encourages leaders to confront their fear, relinquish control, and remain open to correction, repentance, and change. To learn more about Jon Thompson and his books, including Convergence, Perseverance, Presence, and the upcoming re-release of Deliverance, visit jonthompsonresources.com or Amazon.com. Other Conversations with Jon Thompson Reflections on Christian Ministry at the Halfway Point with Jon Thompson // February 8, 2024 What if John Stott, John Wimber, Dallas Willard & Andy Stanley Planted a Church with Jon Thompson? // March 14, 2019 Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, Rich from the unSeminary Podcast. Listen, you’re going to want to lean in today for this conversation because I think this kind what you’re going to get a sneak peek on is something that’s impacting churches all over the world that’s having, I think, an interesting kind of moment and is maybe points to a bit of where God is at work. And I think could for many churches that are listening in today, give them a sense of maybe some next steps, what the kind of evolution or the development of their church, what that could look like for the future.Rich Birch — Plus, it’s one of those times where I get to talk with like a real live friend, somebody that I know from the real world, not just on the internet, which is so fun. Excited to have Jon Thompson with us. He is the senior pastor at Sanctus Church, a multi-site church in the east side of Toronto with four in-person locations plus church online. This church began in 1985 with just 40 people meeting and now averages over 2,600 weekend attendees with a plan to reach 3,600 by the end of the decade and open a sixth site in the T. Dot in Toronto in the six by 2030. Rich Birch — Jon has served at Sanctus for 25 years, starting as a youth pastor before becoming the senior pastor. He holds both a masters from Tyndale and a doctorate from Fuller. He grew up in Ecuador from missionary parents, he and his wife, Joanna, who’s incredible, have three kids. His books include Convergence, Deliverance, and Perseverance. And the brand new one that I’m excited to have him talk about today, Presence: Resilient Witness in Times of Retreat and Revival. And it’s from our friends at Zondervan Reflective.Rich Birch — Jon, welcome to the show. I am so glad that you’re here today. Welcome.Jon Thompson — Yeah great to be here. Great to be back on the podcast. Hang out with a real friend, like you said, and hi to anyone listening anywhere around the world today.Rich Birch — Yeah, this is good. I’m excited for this. For folks that haven’t maybe picked up a past episode, which you haven’t, you should go go back and find them. Jon’s been on a couple times, a few times. But give us kind of a picture of a normal Sunday at Sanctus. Who’s in the room? Give us a flavor for the church.Jon Thompson —  Yeah, so our church is located, like you said, on the east side of Toronto. And some of your viewers will know this, but lots might might not. Toronto is the most multicultural city on earth, more than London, more than, well, LA, more than New York, more than Singapore, more than Hong Kong. And so there’s between 150 and 300 heart languages spoken every single day in our amazing city, by the way, you got to come to Toronto. The food culture is unbelievable…Rich Birch — That’s true. That is true.Jon Thompson — …and unparalleled because everyone’s here. So on a Sunday morning, depending on our locations, again, because we have rural sites, urban sites, and suburban sites, which makes life interesting to say the least, but we probably got 55 plus identified nationalities. We probably I think we’re on 13 on staff right now. And so everything from someone from Hong Kong to someone who’s moved here from Pakistan. We’ve got Congolese. We’ve got Irish. I mean just fill in the blank and you’re going to discover the amazing diversity of the human race on this side of heaven. And we you know we made a decision a long time ago that we were going to fight for Revelation 7 on this side of uh the moment. Rich Birch — So good. Jon Thompson — And it’s exciting, it’s hard, it’s difficult, and it’s um and it’s worth it.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. You know, Canada is and I know we share this conviction. I know you’ve said it and I’ve said it on other podcasts when we’ve had Canadian friends on the podcast. But I think it’s really important, particularly, you know, 95 plus percent of the people listening are in the States. But I think it’s important just to to set the context. Because in a lot of ways, Canada is a few a few years ahead or behind, depending on what language you want to use, of our friends in the States. What do you mean by that? When you say that, what springs to mind?Jon Thompson — Yeah, so this is a very interesting place, right? Because Canada moved from, ah you know, Christendom worldview, to a nominal Christian worldview, to a struggling Christian worldview, to a post-Christian worldview. And now I think we’ve moved to a new place, which is not post-Christian, but repaganized.Jon Thompson — And so it’s a it’s a fascinating place. Because In our context, One moment, you’ll be talking to someone who still has Christian memory, who actually doesn’t love Jesus at all, but it’s a family thing. And it’s nominal Christianity. Jon Thompson — The next moment, you’ll still run into a Mormon telling you you’re worshiping the right and wrong Jesus. The next moment, it’s a New Ager. The next moment, it’s ah a Muslim activist. The next moment, it’s a transgender activist. The next moment, it’s someone who has no clue at all on anything.Jon Thompson — And so what’s fascinating about up here is you’ve got modern, postmodern. You’ve got conservative, you’ve got liberal. You’ve got the heart of the sexual revolution in the center center of our city. It’s one of the hubs of that globally. You’ve got every religion on earth. And you’ve got churches that are dying.Jon Thompson — I think, I don’t know of the latest stats. I still think that they’re they’re estimating one third of churches will close in the next decade in Canada, like physical ah buildings will close. And while that’s happening. And all that’s happening. You’ve got still sort of Christianity memory in certain groups, and then there are churches that are exploding. Jon Thompson — And so the the way I talk about we’re a little ahead is we are your future in some form. Because we’re facing down Jesus and how we deal with the gift of immigrants globally, but also the complication of that. We’re dealing with having to pivot the gospel to an a Muslim person, a Hindu person, a nominal Christian, and and a Mormon all in one conversation.Jon Thompson — There are Bible belts left in Canada, very small ones. But like Abbotsford, for example.Rich Birch — Little teeny tiny belts.Jon Thompson —  But but there are those places.Rich Birch — Sure. Yep.Jon Thompson — At the same time there is the post-christian thing. And the reason why I think our American friends should pay more attention to us is not because we’re we’re having a third cousin issue up here and we’re jealous. It’s because actually we reflect where you’re going. Because there are going to be sections in the United States that probably will remain nominally Christian and culturally Christian for a very long time. You know, in certain parts of Houston, for example, or maybe in sections of Kentucky or Louisiana. But then you go to New York and LA or Seattle. And here’s the point. The church has to speak to both audiences at once, which feels in contradiction. But isn’t.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah and I’ve definitely seen that. I like the uh the re-paganizing language you know I’ve used the uh the pre-christian that we’ve it’s like we’ve gone kind of all the way through. And that that totally has been my experience serving here. You know I took a break. I was in the States for a number of years better part of a decade and then came back. And one of the things I’ve noticed has been this shift kind of under the current. We used to say we used to joke actually we ain’t your mama’s church. But like, you can’t make that joke anymore because like mom didn’t go to church. Grandma didn’t go to church. Like nobody in there, you know, we run into that all the time. Like that’s, you know, really common.Jon Thompson — So like literally this week. This week, my daughter is doing swimming lessons. A woman comes up to us and says, hey, I hear you’re a pastor.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jon Thompson —  Really tragic thing. She says, my husband’s dying, 45 years old. And so my wife and I end up speaking to her, praying for her. And she’s like, I have never. So she’s 45 grown up Canada. She says, I’ve never owned a Bible. I’ve never read a Bible. Could I have a Bible? Jon Thompson — Now, for you listening in the Bible Belt before you dismiss this conversation and say not our fight, I just…May I do something for a moment? That might not be true because you’re surrounded by 400 churches. But every time you go online, it is your reality. So what we experience physically in Canada you digitally experience every day. And you have to be as as adaptive thoughtful, winsome, orthodox on your digital thinking as you do your physical thinking. And again, I’ll say this a little strongly. I find a lot of you aren’t.Rich Birch — Okay. We’re starting off spicy, which is great. Okay, so you’ve seen a lot of people. Part of what I love about Sanctus, friends like, I’m trying to, again, give some context. For folks that are listening in, Sanctus is known as a, you know this is a life-giving church. People, they come to Jesus here. This is the kind of place where people take steps towards faith in in Christ, which is amazing. You’ve seen a lot of that happen over the years at Sanctus—thousands of people. When you look back on some of the patterns in people’s lives, some of the, you know, the kind of themes that come back time and time again and how they arrived at that sort of decision. What are you noticing in people’s lives?Jon Thompson —  Well, like I just said about the diversity of our place, the diversity of conversions come from those places. And so like on a Sunday morning, I mean, our baptisms aren’t more epic than yours or anyone else. I mean, praise the Lord. Right.Rich Birch — Yes.Jon Thompson — We’ve got we’ve got 10 year olds confessing the faith of their parents. But it won’t be unusual for literally, I mean, this just happened. So we’ll have like two or three, not babies, but children who say, you know, I want to get baptized. And the next person’s like, I grew up an atheist. I’ve encountered the living God through Christ. The next person is I’m a former witch. And I just actually want to renounce Satan in the tank. And the next person’s like, I used to be a Muslim. And now I’ve actually found out that Jesus is Lord.Jon Thompson —  So, so, that is not now an uncommon experience at any of our sites. And what is behind that is not only that the gospel is good for everyone—praise the Lord—but we worked really hard to make sure that all the doors are open evangelistically to all people. And that gets to our bias in spiritual gifts. But you know—and we’ve had this conversation many times, you and I, Rich—but there are three historic categories that Bobby Clinton invented years ago we’ve used where he divides all the gifts, love, word, and power.Jon Thompson — So love gifts demonstrate the love of God in the room. Word gifts clarify who God is, who he’s not, what he likes, what he doesn’t. Power gifts evidence his presence in the room. That’s true of gifts, but to take a farther step out, those are three doors evangelistically.Jon Thompson — And this is why this is so critical. Because we have to have all three of those doors—such as, hospitality, apologetic defense of the gospel, and miracles and deliverance—open all the time. Because these are the ways people have always come to faith in our movement for 2,000 years. Jon Thompson — Now, all three doors have to lead to the true Christ because there are fake Jesuses. And there’s lots of heresy out there. And it has to be involved in repentance and belief and evidence by baptism. Amen. But I find most churches, theologically and experientially, are comfortable with one or maybe two of those things. And as I always lecture on this, like formally, if you sit on a three-legged stool and there are three legs…Rich Birch — Right.Jon Thompson — …and one leg is missing. You wobble on the best of days, but you usually fall down.Rich Birch — Yeah. I’d love to kind of double click on love, word, and power, these three legs of the stool. And so familiar with, some people will be familiar with that framework for gifting like you talked about, and but kind of give us a little more, you gave you kind of a quick overview of each of them from an evangelistic point of view, but kind of give me some examples or what it might look like in a church that’s opening that that door evangelistically, you know, the love, word, and power door.Jon Thompson — Yeah, and um I think we’re going to talk about this a little bit later. I mean there’s a lot behind these statements.Rich Birch — Yep. Yes.Jon Thompson —  Like almost 30 years of conversation. Rich Birch — Yes. Jon Thompson — But like this is the best way I’ll say it. I’ve seen this in my life. I’ve seen this in my kids’ life. I’ve seen this across our church for two two plus decades, almost three now. Can I tell some stories that might help?Rich Birch — Yeah of course. I love a good story.Jon Thompson — Yeah, so… yeah so like here here’s a great example guy a young adult guy is in his basement.And he’s smoking weed, high as a kite. Freaks freaks out. Okay, great.Rich Birch — Shocker.Jon Thompson — Shocker. But actually sees a demon and like panics. Calls someone at our church, a friend of his, and is like, I’m really scared. And she laughs. And she’s like, no problem. So her first thing is not. Oh you’re an idiot. Her first thing is not, oh, you’re inventing that. The first thing is not, well, of course you’re high, you’re seeing that. Her first reaction is, well, I’ve got an answer to that.Jon Thompson — She’s like, yeah, his name is Jesus. By the way, if you say his name, watch the demon leave and then come talk to us. So the guy—total pagan—does it. Rich Birch — Yeah.Jon Thompson — The demon leaves. He shows up next Sunday. He’s radically converted. Didn’t used to be able to read, by the way, very well. Now reads at a PhD level and on a theology sort of thing, like radically converted. And his starting point was a power encounter.Jon Thompson — Now the person next to it, next to him in a conversation is the one listening to John Lennox at Oxford on the the lack validity and the historicity of Jesus.Jon Thompson — Or or you know, and we’re like, yeah, of course. And then the next person, we were just talking to this on staff. So one of our so SLT members (senior leadership team) was talking about his conversion story. And his conversion story is one of his relatives—I think it was his mom—was really sick in the hospital. Two nurses come in, and and are Christians, start praying over her, and basically start committing you know hospitality in the hospital, probably in a way they’re not supposed to. She’s radically saved, ends up leading her son to Christ, and the hus…Jon Thompson — And and so so here’s all I’m trying to say. We have a gift bias that everyone should know their gifts and be using them not only internally in the church, but see how they work out evangelistically, but beyond the gift thing. This for us is normal. We talk about this in our sermons. We actually take the Bible literally in the sense of what we’ve defended is what we believe. I find a lot of conservative people defend the scriptures and don’t believe the thing they’re defending.Jon Thompson — So for us, when I look at the book of Acts, I’m like, we will see people come to faith through healings and through deliverances and through visions and through dreams, as much as John Lennox or or our good new friend Wes Huff from Canada, who’s on every podcast showing up why the Bible is reliable, and also through that incredible, Hey. Can you just talk to me? I’m really sad. Jon Thompson — And what I’m begging churches to do is this this matrix gives you the ability to pivot to multiple people, but you have to have a culture that believes this, defends it, defines it.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Jon Thompson — And makes the weird normal, as we’ve said for years.Rich Birch — Yeah, okay. So you earlier you talked about how most churches are comfortable with one or maybe two, back to the three-legged stool.Jon Thompson —  Yep.Rich Birch — Unpack that a little bit. How have you seen that? Or maybe even more pointedly, how do you fight a get that against that in your own church? Because I you know I can see naturally we would all kind of lean in one way because of our giftings.Rich Birch — you know As a leader, I always see I see the world through my lens. And so the stuff that’s important to me, if I was leading, we would be we’d love all that stuff, but we might not be into the other two. So help help me understand, what does that look like? How do you fight against that at Sanctus?Jon Thompson — So I’ll step back and just say that you know this has been almost like a three-decade journey. For us, everything changed when we got serious about spiritual gifts, unpacking them and doing all of that. That’s a different podcast we’ve done. But what I will but what i will say is this… is that there are most conservative evangelical churches are word churches: Who God is, who he’s not, what he likes, what he doesn’t, the power of preaching. I’m all for it. I preach for a living. And by the way, for people who are starting to dismiss me, I’m reformed in my soteriology. And not only that, I’m an expository preacher. So you don’t get to throw me out the window too quick. Jon Thompson — So, I mean, i’m’m I’m all I’m all for that. But that is not the answer. It’s part of the answer. And so what we continually have done is when we realize that love, word and power are things that are all needed at once, we made them equally important. In staffing, in our conversations. That’s one. Jon Thompson — Two, you need to admit as a church where you’re comfortable and where you’re not. Because there’s a lot of churches, for example, that I always say it like this. You can have all the word people on earth in your church and know all truth, but you’re cold as anything and you’re not even sure if anyone’s been saved lately. Jon Thompson — I’m in all sorts of other churches where it’s love, love, social justice, and hospitality. But I’m like, but are you believing heresy? Do you even have any compass? Rich Birch — Right. Jon Thompson — And then I’m in other environments where it’s, you know, glory clouds and all this amazing spiritual stuff. But I’m like, do you even know the source of this?Jon Thompson — Where is this coming from? Rich Birch — Yeah that’s good.Jon Thompson — Just because it’s good doesn’t mean it’s from our Lord. The spirit of Antichrist and Christ are identical in action. So so what we’ve tried doing is saying, number one, we have to admit these three things are important. Number two, we have to come up with language for each one of them and affirm them. Number three, and you just did it live so I love this, you need to admit where you’re limited.Jon Thompson — So you’re like, Jon, I mean we know each other you’re like One of my strongest spiritual gifts is leadership. That’s what you said. This is the way I immediately instinctually and spiritually react. So, Rich’s responsibility, if he was the senior pastor, is then to publicly talk about why he’s actually not biased in other directions and why he needs to be, and find other people to be that voice.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s so good.Jon Thompson — Because a lot of people want to be open to this, but since they have not experienced it, they don’t know what to do. And I’m like, right, because it’s about interdependence. It’s not just about you.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I think this is a great framework. And you know, it it explains what I can think think could be what’s missing in, you know, so many of our churches and you know we so many of us are are led by uh very gifted word-oriented gift people. Like our churches are led by those people… Jon Thompson — Right. Rich Birch — …and which is amazing… Jon Thompson — Yep. Rich Birch — …but we could miss the other two. And you know in the last year our mutual friend Jeff Brody said something and that resonates with what you were saying. He’s talked about, you know you might believe that it’s true, but is it real for you? And that has like resonated with me so so deeply. It’s similar to when you talked about you know conservatives defend what they don’t necessarily believe. And you know, does this actually work out in our lives, I think is a powerful idea.Rich Birch — Now, there was a story in your book about a young woman who left Hinduism and then joined a reformed church.Jon Thompson — Yeah.Rich Birch — I thought this was a vivid example. And particularly for us on the system side, I thought, oh, this is a good way to kind of systematize this…Jon Thompson — Yeah.Rich Birch — …or think about this at a systems level. Can you unpack that story?Jon Thompson — A hundred percent. And I just want to acknowledge as we keep going, I know the vast majority of your viewers or listeners are more probably on the system side executive pastor, like that type of leader, which by the way, without you, we all die. So thank you for all your service and what you do.Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah. Yep.Jon Thompson — We’re so thankful for you. But as we keep having this conversation, think this is a challenge for you to think deeply theologically, even before your systems, because what you systematize better be true. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jon Thompson — And so this is a great example of what we’re talking about. So I teach a course up here in a seminary on spiritual conflict, a very boring, non-controversial course. And so I was teaching this, I think it was two years ago now, and a young woman comes on and takes the course, and she is in tears at the end of one of the lectures. And ah and it’s all, it’s online. So so she said, can I meet?Jon Thompson — So I said, yeah. She says, look, she said, I just, I was radically saved out of Hinduism, which is incredible, and and she said soI you know I became a christian, I renounced my hinduism, and I I have no background. Either my family are Hindus or atheists and nothing in between, which even shows you the contradiction there. Her family is made up of atheists and Hindus.Rich Birch —Right.Jon Thompson — Like she is the embodiment of what we’re talking about.Rich Birch — Absolutely.Jon Thompson — And so she says, well, I’m going to find a church. She goes to a very small Reformed church locally, like a Christian Reformed, Dutch Reformed church. They’re of course excited that she’s come to faith, which is great. The average age in the church is much older. She told me, I think she’s the first adult baptism in over a decade or maybe two.Jon Thompson — So, because of course they’re covenantal, they baptize children overall. Fun. So he’s like, well, we want to hear your story. So she writes the whole story of encountering Jesus through visions and dealing with demons and Jesus setting her free. And so submits the the testimony, and the pastor edits every single encounter out of it. And this is like in the last three years in Toronto.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Jon Thompson —  This is in Toronto.Rich Birch — Yes.Jon Thompson — And so she said, why have you edited this out? And he said, because I don’t fully understand this, though it’s true. My people will be afraid and I don’t want to make them afraid. And right there, she wept. And then she said to me. When I took your class, you not only affirmed everything that happened to me was true. Second of all, you gave me the theological principles and categories scripturally and historically to show that I am in the great line of succession of the church. If anyone should be defending the great line of succession of the church, it’s the Reformed kids. I mean, those reform kids.Rich Birch — Yes.Jon Thompson —  And so what I want to point out is in that story, fear and lack of experience, and theological bias ended up quenching what the Spirit wanted to do. Jon Thompson — And I just want to say to anyone listening. I’m not saying that every environment that you’ve been in has been perfect. I mean i think a lot of us have had experiences spiritually where people with right motives have done things wrong.Rich Birch — Yep, true.Jon Thompson — And we ended up getting hurt. So it’s sort of like dating. If you’ve ever dated and broken up or you married and and then and then got divorced, the amount of intensity it takes to re-engage is a lot. Rich Birch — Yep.Jon Thompson — So there’s a lot of you listening, you’re like, Jon, I don’t want this conversation because I don’t want to touch that again. And I’m like, you have to. You have to. The scriptures are chock full of this. This is the only way we’re going to do well between retreat and revival, whether you’re in an environment where everyone’s a false nominal Christian or everyone’s not a Christian at all. This has been the pattern since the beginning. And it’s the way the Spirit works. So maybe I’d encourage some of you to pray about your fear and your anger. So you can get on with the thing.Rich Birch — So good. and And I would say um this, what we’re talking about right here, that story of um you know, this this you know young Hindu woman who came to know Jesus, praise God, amazing story. And, you know, kind of God appearing in dreams and all of that. I feel like has, been or I don’t feel like, has become more normative in my church experience in the same kind of climate that that you’re in. And that was not normative 30 years ago when I started. Rich Birch — Like, you know, it is this kind of like, you know, we have a laundry list of similar conversations where it’s like, you know people are having dreams and then wandering into church you know they’re having dreams on a Tuesday you know between Monday and Tuesday night and then they’re just wandering to the church because they’re like I think that’s a church over there. And are like hey, Jesus told me to come here. And you know then we end up having you know deeper conversations and they you know their life gets transformed. Rich Birch — I don’t remember that stuff going on. That’s happening more, which makes sense, I think, in this context of you know this uh what did you call it repaganizing or you know pre-christian kind of context because, you know, the Spirit’s got to work directly. He’s got to, you know, get directly encounter people. So I think that’s, you know, interesting. Rich Birch — So the people that might be because people listening and…you want to say something?Jon Thompson — Well, I was just going to say, yes, and…Rich Birch — Yep. Good.Jon Thompson — 30 years ago, it was happening.Rich Birch — Sure.Jon Thompson — See, this is this is what we have to admit. Rich Birch — Yep.Jon Thompson — It was happening, but we weren’t open.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.Jon Thompson — So for a lot of you listening you’re like, well I don’t live in Toronto. I’m like, I know you don’t. But what you legitimize from your pulpit tells your people what you’re allowed to talk about.Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.Jon Thompson — So if you’re going to have a sincere conversation about love, word, and power, and how the Spirit really works evangelistically, whether you’re speaking again to a a cultural Christian or someone else, here’s the point. I guarantee you in the Bible Belt, lots of people are having dreams too.Rich Birch — Right.Jon Thompson — They just have been told that’s weird, and we don’t talk about that.Rich Birch — Those are the kind of things we don’t talk about here. Yeah.Jon Thompson —  Right.Rich Birch — That’s good. Okay, so pivoting in a slightly different direction. One of the things that I love about Sanctus that’s, you know, if you’re kind of in the outer orbit of the church, eventually you’ll start to hear like, oh, they have a deliverance ministry over there. That’s not on the list of like, you know, men’s ministry, women’s ministry, pioneer girls, deliverance ministry that I hear like in so many churches out there. And you’ve had it for a long time. What does that actually look like? So like an average Tuesday, how does that fit into what’s going on at Sanctus?Jon Thompson — Yeah, so this is a conversation we wanted nothing to do with. Again, we were just again, you know Willow Creek, seeker-sensitive, historic church.Rich Birch — Yep.Jon Thompson — And this is like 27 years ago now where people started coming to us and they’re like, I think I have something happening in my life that is beyond psychological or biological wiring. And we were like, we are not that church that does that. That’s the weird people down the street. You know, we’ll deal with them in heaven, but you know. And the Lord wouldn’t give it up. Jon Thompson — So 27 plus years later, I think we’ve had either been involved in or helped assist globally in a thousand cases. And just for, I love how you put that. It’s just normal for us. It’s not this thing. It’s a thing. Jon Thompson — So for us, a worship team practice and, you know, a youth gathering taking place, an Alpha running and a deliverance having the same building is just normal. Because again, our bias on spiritual gifts is there’s 21 gifts, 21 directions. We need to try to make sure that all the gifts are employed in some way. And this is a certain group of gifts.Jon Thompson — So, yeah, we’ve done it for years. The whole story of that is in the book, Deliverance, which I think you and I maybe have talked about. It’s coming out again in February through Zondervan Reflective.Rich Birch — Yep. Jon Thompson — That’s the whole story. But like for us, dealing with the demonic, both in oppression issues and demonization issues and sanctification with Christians, but also evangelistically with non-Christians is just sort of normal.Rich Birch — Yeah. So good.Rich Birch — Yeah, I yeah there’s ah there’s a lot there that you I just think is kind of ah a great part of the story that God’s writing at your church, and I think can be instructive to many of us as we’re thinking about the future.Rich Birch — So let’s let’s kind of draw in the person that’s listening, maybe like an executive pastor, church of, I don’t know, 800 to a thousand, something like that. And they’re struck by this idea this like ooh maybe we are only opening one door. We’re not talking about these other these other doors. We’re not engaged in any of that.Rich Birch — Where would you suggest that they start? (Outside of actually picking up a copy of the book.) I you know I think that’s an obvious thing where we’re going to get to, but like outside of that, how would you help them think about um you know what they should be thinking about?Jon Thompson — Yeah. So just to step back a little to this question. This book conversation we’re having is about how you deal with an environment where renewal and retreat are happening in the same place. That’s very true in our social media feeds and it’s true in a lot of our cities.Jon Thompson — So I happen to know you and I happen to know your church. Because I’ve been conspiratorially involved behind the scenes at points. So your church’s own story is where all your people need to begin.Jon Thompson — And it’s this. Only when the leaders decide not to resist God will things change. And what I mean by that is not like open rebellion against God. It’s this. The lead, I just happen to know there were moments in your church’s own story where the leaders went, you know what? We’re not going to resist you anymore, Lord. What do you want to do?Rich Birch — Yeah.Jon Thompson — That was it. That and that’s not, you know, like earthquake you know, feel. But it changed everything. I mean what are you starting this week? Is it this week you’re starting? 30 days of like. praying, or has that happened?Rich Birch — Well, yeah, we’ve done that already, which is amazing, and but there’s more of that coming… Jon Thompson — Yep. Right. But… Rich Birch — …like it’s there’s there’s lots of that stuff happening that wasn’t happening 10 years ago for sure.Jon Thompson — Right. The inception point, though, is when people just went like this. You know what? We’re afraid.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jon Thompson — We don’t understand. We prefer system over encounter. We prefer system over encounter and they’re not in competition, but both have to be there. So, Lord, what do you want to say? What do you want to do? That’s the starting point. Rich Birch — Right. Jon Thompson — Because before you work out the theology of love, word, and power and start thinking about how you, you know, witness to people from all the nations and not have a you know a vicious reaction towards them. And how you think through the, like all that.Jon Thompson — The first place is you say to the Lord, I won’t fight you. And the truth is the vast majority of us love God, but don’t trust him. And I said this on a former podcast with you. And and and lots of executive pastors, when they hear me talk, way more than this, get nervous because this starts sounding like Pandora’s box. Well, how do I systematize this? And what would be the implications?Jon Thompson — And I’m like, yeah, before any of that conversation, have you said to the Lord, whatever you want to do, I won’t I won’t fight you.Rich Birch — So good.Jon Thompson — Most pastors would say they have not prayed that. I don’t think. I also think, too, there are a series of systems that relate to what happens in an empowered encounterist church, a systemized church, and then a church going through a revival. Three very different things. And there’s there’s a set of systems.Rich Birch — You want to unpack…you want to unpack that a little bit?Jon Thompson — Yeah, sure. So I mean, there are lots of amazing churches that are commonly faithful who serve communion and preach God’s word and help the poor. And and and and those are all guaranteed places of encounter according to the scriptures. And so amazing. They’re that’s good. That’s right. That’s holy. And that’s one expression of it. Jon Thompson — When you start saying to the holy spirit not only common faithfulness but anything else you’d like to do? At that moment I have a saying, most people praying for revival aren’t praying for revival, they’re praying for a normal church on Monday, they just don’t know it.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jon Thompson — And what I mean by that is most people praying for revival are actually praying for a church where the Spirit is more present, there are more encounters, and everyone’s using their gifts and loving each other better. That’s not revival. That is actually what it’s supposed to be. So when you have a whole group of encounters taking place more than a system, there are other things you have to adjust like we’ve done. Jon Thompson — For example, you start asking your volunteers, what are your spiritual gifts? You start clarifying from the front what encounters look like. You start building house rules of how encounters are handled. It’s part of your intake process. You think about this through pastoral care. There’s no dismissing of experience. You now become an interpreter of experience 24-7.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jon Thompson — So like there’s that. And then there’s revival. And revival is a sovereign act of God where everything falls apart, and all sin is revealed, and there’s en masse healing. And if it’s a genuine move of God that moves from renewal to revival to awakening, there’s en masse conversion.Jon Thompson — And as I share in the book, because we went through a three year experience with that, it was documented. There’s another set of organizational rules. I was meeting with a lot of leaders in England for the last three years because they are experiencing this genuinely. And I was just telling them what we went through historically. And I used the analogy for the executive pastors or the admin leaders saying, You’ve got to think about renewal and revival like being on a bike. And I said, you’re all English and you all ride bikes, so you should be fine.Jon Thompson —  And I just said, you know how there are gears on a bike? And I just said, when a move of God actually takes place, you have one set of things that are in place for that. And then when you go back to normal, you use another set. And we just said, you have to have a code word for your staff where you literally say, Monday was normal. Wednesday is now not normal, so the whole system collapses and now looks like this. And when the Spirit walks back, you go, okay. We’re going back to the other gear. Jon Thompson — That thinking is incredibly important in renewal and revival environments for sustainability of staff, for clarification of experience, and also for literal helping people not burn out. Because when God shows up, all hell and heaven break loose. And and maybe I’ll just throw this out quickly too.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jon Thompson — We should never forget that a lot of people dismiss revival-like environments because a lot of things are done wrong. And that’s a horrific starting point. Actually, that’s true in all of this.Jon Thompson — So we forget that, you know, I don’t know if I said this on this pod one of this one of these episodes, but we forget that that that Moses went up the mountain. The people were looking at the physical Shekinah glory of God. And while God was present in the most magnificent of way, they still built the golden calf in real time while they’re looking at him.Rich Birch — Right.Jon Thompson — So anytime there’s a significant move of God, the devil is in the room, the flesh is in the room, and God’s in the room at the same time. If you think God’s just going to be in the room, you’re going to end up dismissing much of what he’s done.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Talk about, you kind of you breezed over this, but I think it’s an important piece of the puzzle—the connection between repentance and revival, you know, and how repentance fits into the overall picture. The reason why I asked that, I don’t know, a year ago, I was at an event where a bunch of leaders were there and there was a Gen Z leader who has been involved in some stuff that’s been going on. And led like a public confession experience with the leaders that were there. And he was challenging us around you know, basically the question was like, well, why why is why repentance? Why is that such a big deal? Rich Birch — And this leader, which I loved, you know, was like, Well, hasn’t that isn’t that always the way? Like isn’t that what isn’t that what this is about? Like aren’t we aren’t we shouldn’t repentance be a part of the transformation of Jesus in in our lives like that? How can you separate those two? And I was like, oh yeah, right. Rich Birch — But I think that that… issue could be the fear you know you’ve mentioned talked about fear a little bit could be a part of the fear that’s in many leaders lives today. Jon Thompson — Yeah. Rich Birch — It’s like man, I’m not sure I want to engage that. Unpack that. Jon Thompson — Yeah, so I’ll I’ll I’ll do it like this. The language we’ve come up with, because I always find that categories are helpful for translation and expectations. So we always talk about renewal as the recovery of first love in an individual’s life.Jon Thompson — Revival is a sovereign act of God that he initiates and he ends. Awakening is when mass conversions take place out of a revival. What you’re talking about is probably the renewal category even more than the revival. Rich Birch — That’s good. Jon Thompson — Revival people tend to mush everything together, which is never helpful.Rich Birch — Yes.Jon Thompson — And it really bothers me.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good.Jon Thompson — So and I’m friends with lots of the people. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. That’s good. Jon Thompson — So I keep helping I keep saying, please, please help us. Rich Birch — Yes. Jon Thompson — So here’ here’s what I would say about you know repentance. Yes, of course, it’s always part of the thing. Of course it is. And It’s a fascinating reflection when we look at Adam and Eve. The very first thing that Adam and Eve did when they sinned is they hid. So hiddenness is the first sign of trouble. Then they tried fashioning something to cover their hiddenness. Then, of course, God comes and finds them, exposes them and gives them a better, of course, covering. Jon Thompson — Why this matters is this gets back to the love and trust thing. Lots of us are comfortable with Jesus at the wedding of Cana. Most of us are not okay with Jesus glorified at the Mount of Transfiguration. Or actually the encounter between Jesus and John in Revelation 1. Jon Thompson — And so I think a lot of times as leaders, and and let me just say this boldly too, your people will not go beyond you. You are Moses to your movement. And so I think saying to the Lord, you know, I’m open to what you would say to me, good or bad. And would you help me be in a position where I would want to repent. Jon Thompson — And I think this is okay to say. Regularly, I pray that the Holy Spirit would give me desires I don’t have. Because I don’t have lots of desires for repentance or you know. Rich Birch — Right, right. That’s good.Jon Thompson — So I think for leaders listening, whether God decides sovereignly to bring revival to your church or awakening to your area is not the starting point. That’s actually a sovereign decision. And in in the book, I talk about how I’m really concerned these days that everyone’s saying revival’s coming, revival’s coming. I’m like, actually, the Bible says revival’s not guaranteed. You have to ask if he’s decided to come. If he says, yes, you pray back the prayers, then all Heaven and hell breaks out.Jon Thompson — But if he doesn’t do that, in other words, if summer doesn’t come and you’re stuck in winter you still have to be involved in common faithfulness, including no hiddenness as a leader. And so anyone listening, I would just encourage you to trust the goodness of the God you continually tell others to trust in.Jon Thompson — I was writing a section. yesterday for a sermon I’m doing out of Mark where, you know, Martha is serving in Lazarus’s house and Mary takes the nard and smashes it on Jesus’s feet. And Judas gets really pissed off and says, how dare you do this? Jon Thompson —  And I was reflecting on how her—everyone ready, system leaders?—her uncontrolled, embarrassing, inappropriate public activity exposed his double life. And so I just want to challenge everyone that when genuine encounter starts happening, systems are not the enemy, but it will expose double lives.Rich Birch — So good, Jon, this is I feel like we could go for so long about these things. And I’m always got I got a page of notes here and other questions I’d love to ask you. But this is super helpful.Rich Birch — So the thing for folks that haven’t been tracking along, you’ve been writing a number of books.Jon Thompson — Yeah.Rich Birch — And that, you know, and they they hang together as a bit of a the thing you’re tricking people into is it’s like they think it’s one book, but really it’s like it’s like a Tolkien, more than trilogy. Kind of talk to us how these all fit together. At least that’s how I see them. I see them as like, it’s kind of one continuous conversation around the similar kind of stuff. How does Presence, this current work, fit in the context of the other stuff that you’re working on?Jon Thompson — Sure. You are right about the conspiracy. And I’ll take I’ll take the Tolkien nod.Rich Birch — Yes, I figured you’d like that.Jon Thompson — That’s very kind of you, because I don’t deserve it. I only quote him once in all my books, though. So the only once for one section.Rich Birch — Oh nice. Yes.Jon Thompson — ah Yeah, here’s how I would say it. Convergence is the is the story and the theology of how we wrestled down love, word, and power from the gift side of things. How it was implemented. How we move, basically what is the theology thing what is it what does it feel like, how do you actually build house rules around it, all the good and bad that happened with it, and then tells the story of the renewal and revival we went through, and how we survived it. So that’s book one.Jon Thompson — Book two, well, it’s not really book two anymore, but I’ll do it like this. Deliverance, which comes out in February, is a 25-plus year theological and practical experience of how we dealt with the demonic.Jon Thompson — Perseverance, book three, which is still out which will disappear soon, is all my reflections at the midway point on survivability, because you and I have talked about this before, only 30% of leaders in the Bible end well; 70% fail. The stats have not changed. So there’s a lot of the first two things involved in this. Jon Thompson — This book Presence is talking honestly about retreat and revival, talking about incarnation and why multiple models of church that feeling contradiction to each other is the point. That’s always been the point, which again, for a lot of you as admin leaders, I’d really beg you to read this, not because it’s my book. Because a lot of the battles between churches is a misunderstanding of mission. Jon Thompson — And then I talk about how love, word, and power are employed evangelistically, and then walk again through revival and how you can ask for it and what you do if He says yes or no. But the majority of the book is actually on long-term witness to a very diverse, complicated world.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good.Jon Thompson — That’s the trellis.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jon Thompson —  And the book I’m writing right now is on suffering, but we’re not there yet.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Friends, I would strongly encourage you, you know, listen, I’ve had multiple friends, multiple teams who have just been incredibly blessed by by Jon’s work and has challenged and done the best kind of disruptive work that this kind of thinking can do. And so i would strongly endorse uh you know that you pick up copies of Presence for your team. Rich Birch — This could be a great um you know resource to work through with your leaders and ask the question all the time. So what does that mean for us? What does that mean for us? What does that mean for us? Don’t just let these be ideas in your head, but something you can really wrestle with. Rich Birch — Where do we want to send people to pick up, you know, to get copies and all that stuff. I’m assuming you can get them on Amazon, but are there other places we want to let people know about?Jon Thompson — Yeah, so Amazon, of course, is easy for all of us these days. But jonthompsonresources.com has it too. J-O-N. Jon Thompson Resources will have all of that. Like I said, Convergence is out. Presence comes out September 22nd. Deliverance is re-released in February 2027. And Perseverance is available now and will disappear and then we’ll come back…Rich Birch — It’s like the Disney vault.Jon Thompson — …sooner than later. It is like, it’s like the Disney. Yes, it is like the Disney vault.Rich Birch — That’s a throwback to the, the you know for people of a certain age, we’ll get that. And Gen Z friends will be like, what? What are you talking about? Rich Birch — Well, Jon, I just also want to just publicly honor you. You’re you’re doing a fantastic job. Like it’s been fun to watch over the years, your continued leadership and the positive impact you’ve been having and the community that you have stewarded. And you know I can’t I love when you know more people get a chance to interact with you. So thanks so much for being here on the show today. Appreciate your time with us. Thank you.Jon Thompson — Yeah, thanks for your friendship and your prayers. 

Rev. Craig Troxel continues the Podcast discussion of qualifications for elders, emphasizing the need for godly character. Ruling elders are to be sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, and hospitable. On today's episode we also discuss a recent article by Murray J. Smith“An Overseer must be…Able to Teach” (1 Tim 3:2): ΔΙΔΑΚΤΙΚΟΣ as the Center of the Character Chiasm in 1 Timothy 3:1–7” JETS 69.2 (2026): 301–320An online pdf is available here.Lawerence Eyres says, “hospitality does not mean just an open door to one's home. The hospitable man is one whose heart is first open to the lonely, the rejected, the alien among men of all kinds, and in all conditions.” (The Elders of the Church, p. 30)Craig's Three Book Recommendations:The Pastor: His Call, Character, and Work. Written by faculty and friends of Old Princeton, with an introduction by Sinclair B. Ferguson. Banner of Truth, 2021. (The chapters in this book have been selected from the two-volume Princeton and the Work of the Christian Ministry, also published by the Banner of Truth.)Charles Bridges, The Christian Ministry, With an Inquiry into the Causes of its Inefficiency, Banner of Truth.Samuel Miller, The Ruling Elder: The Warrant, Nature, and Duties of the Office in the Presbyterian Church. Available in various formats.Photo by Sam Carter on Unsplash

Corey Alderin is the Founder and CEO of Sermon Shots, leading a team of 25+ serving 9,000+ churches on the platform. Sermon Shots helps churches transform a single sermon into an entire collection of ready-to-share content – sermon clips, quote graphics, devotionals, discussion guides, transcripts, and more – empowering ministries to extend the impact of every message throughout the week.A 3X founder and an accomplished SaaS entrepreneur in the church technology space, Corey has been recognized on the Inc. 5000 list of the fastest-growing companies in the US, and the software he's built is used by 200,000+ users. Learn more about Corey at coreyalderin.com.Ed Stetzer, Ph.D., is the Dean and Professor of Leadership and Christian Ministry at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. He also serves as Distinguished Visiting Scholar at Wycliffe Hall at Oxford University, where he teaches twice a year. Stetzer has planted, revitalized, and pastored churches; trained pastors and church planters on six continents; earned two master's degrees and two doctorates; and written hundreds of articles and a dozen books.He is Regional Director for Lausanne North America, the Editor-in-Chief of Outreach Magazine, and regularly writes for news outlets such as USA Today and CNN. His national radio show, Ed Stetzer Live, airs Saturdays on Moody Radio and affiliates. Stetzer serves his local church, Mariners Church, as Scholar in Residence & Teaching Pastor.Dale Sellers and Joseph Bennett talk with Corey Alderin and Ed Stetzer about how pastors can use AI wisely, save time, strengthen ministry, and protect the embodied, soul-level work of the church.Support the show

2 Corinthians 3:7-16

The Fellowship of Christian Athletes' exciting local radio program, Heart of the Athlete, airs Saturdays at 9:30 am MST on 94.5 FM and 790 AM Boise's Solid Talk. The show is hosted by local FCA Director, Ken Lewis. This program is a great opportunity to listen to local athletes and coaches share their lives, combining sports with their faith in Jesus Christ each week!Our relationships will demonstrate steadfast commitment to Jesus Christ and His Word through Integrity, Serving, Teamwork and Excellence.NNU Box 3359623 S University BlvdNampa, ID 83686United States(208) 697-1051klewis@fca.orghttps://www.fcaidaho.org/Podcast Website: https://www.790kspd.com/podcast-heart-of-the-athlete/

Episode SummarySuccess is not found in a platform, a ministry title, or a number on a dashboard. In this episode, Bobby Bosler opens John 1 and Galatians 6 to show that Christ's simple call—Follow Me—defines a life of true success, whether it leads to a visible ministry or quiet faithfulness. Let go of the vision you have built for yourself and follow Jesus wherever He leads.Topics DiscussedChrist's call to follow Him in John 1Releasing self-defined success, platforms, and performance metricsThe Flourish Series playlist and the ongoing study through GalatiansFaithfulness in visible ministry and in the hidden placesKey TakeawaysThe greatest success is to follow Jesus wherever He leads.God's call may look different from the life we picture for ourselves.Faithful obedience matters more than recognition, scale, or results. If you've been encouraged by this podcast, please take the time to give us a five-star rating and write a brief review. That would help tremendously in getting the word out and raising the visibility of the Thee Generation for others. For more faith inspiring resources and information about joining Thee Generation, please visit theegeneration.org.

The Last Days Transformation of Humanity: Paul's Warning in 2 Timothy 3 | KIB 548 Kingdom Intelligence Briefing DESCRIPTION THE LAST DAYS TRANSFORMATION OF HUMANITY Kingdom Intelligence Briefing — Episode 548 What happens to humanity when God is removed from the center, biblical restraint is rejected, and SELF takes the throne? In 2 Timothy 3:1–9, the Apostle Paul gives one of Scripture's most sobering descriptions of humanity in the last days. Paul warns that "times of difficulty" will come. But what makes those times dangerous? PEOPLE. The dangerous character of the times emerges from the increasingly dangerous character of humanity. In KIB 548, Dr. Michael Lake and Mary Lou Lake examine Paul's warning and trace a downward progression beginning with one foundational disorder: ·      "People will be lovers of self." — 2 Timothy 3:2 ·      Once SELF becomes supreme, everything else begins to shift. ·      Truth becomes: "What is true for me?" ·      Morality becomes: "What feels right to me?" ·      Identity becomes: "What do I believe myself to be?" ·      Religion becomes: "What can God do for me?" ·      Worship becomes: "How does this make me feel?" ·      Humanity gradually replaces God as its own reference point. Dr. Lake describes this as an "anthropological inversion"—God, others, and self are replaced by self, personal desires, and God only when He is useful. The result is precisely the progression Paul describes: ·      Lovers of self. ·      Lovers of money. ·      Proud. ·      Arrogant. ·      Abusive. ·      Ungrateful. ·      Unholy. ·      Heartless. ·      Unappeasable. ·      Slanderous. ·      Without self-control. ·      Brutal. ·      Not loving good. ·      Treacherous. ·      Reckless. ·      Swollen with conceit. ·      Lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. And then comes perhaps the most disturbing warning of all: "Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power." — 2 Timothy 3:5 Paul is not merely describing secular wickedness. He warns that rebellion can eventually CLOTHE ITSELF IN RELIGIOUS LANGUAGE. ·      Christian vocabulary without biblical obedience. ·      Worship without holiness. ·      Church attendance without discipleship. ·      Spiritual experiences without discernment. ·      Grace without repentance. ·      Faith without faithfulness. ·      Religious identity without transformation. This is RELIGION WITHOUT POWER. The episode also examines the significance of Jannes and Jambres in 2 Timothy 3:8, spiritual deception, counterfeit supernatural manifestations, the loss of self-control, increasing brutality, slander and accusation, the weakening of moral restraint, and the spiritual warfare believers may increasingly encounter in the days ahead. Paul's reference to Jannes and Jambres connects to the possibility of intensified occult counterfeits as the last days progress. Yet KIB 548 does not end with darkness. As humanity moves increasingly toward the exaltation of self, God is preparing a people who move in the opposite direction. The world becomes increasingly self-centered. | The remnant becomes increasingly Christ-centered. The world rejects holiness. | The remnant pursues holiness. The world abandons truth. | The remnant stands upon the Word. The world loses self-control. | The Holy Spirit produces self-control within God's people. The world conforms increasingly to rebellion. | The remnant is conformed increasingly to the image of Christ. The coming contrast may become unmistakable: ·      THIS IS LIFE WITHOUT GOD. ·      THIS IS LIFE WITH GOD. NOW CHOOSE. Dr. Lake's closing exhortation is urgent: when believers see 2 Timothy 3:1–9 unfolding around them, it is time to take God seriously and determine to follow biblical truth even when the surrounding culture abandons it. SPIRITUAL WARFARE IN THE DAYS AHEAD This episode also warns believers that the spiritual battle may become increasingly visible. ·      The answer is not fear. ·      The answer is preparation. ·      Learn the Word. ·      Develop discernment. ·      Understand your authority in Christ. ·      Practice obedience now. ·      Pursue holiness now. ·      Learn biblical spiritual warfare now. Do not wait until the battle becomes intense to discover what Scripture teaches about standing against the kingdom of darkness. As the episode emphasizes, believers were "birthed in the battlefield." Learning obedience to Christ now prepares God's people for increasing spiritual conflict later. KEY SCRIPTURES DISCUSSED ·      2 Timothy 3:1–9 ·      Matthew 24:3–8 ·      Matthew 8:28 ·      Genesis 3:5 ·      Genesis 6:5 ·      Isaiah 5:20 ·      Revelation 12:10 ·      Galatians 5:22–23 ·      Daniel 11:32 The core passage throughout the teaching is 2 Timothy 3:1–9, which the episode uses to contrast Paul's description of dangerous last-days humanity with the character God desires to develop within the remnant. YOUTUBE CHAPTERS / TIMELINE 00:00 — Biblical Life TV: Empowering the Remnant 01:31 — Welcome to KIB 548 02:00 — Current Conditions, Prayer & Spiritual Preparedness 03:00 — An Attack on Rabbi Jonathan Cahn 05:00 — Demonic Manifestations & Increasing Spiritual Conflict 07:20 — 2 Timothy 3:1–9: Paul's Warning About the Last Days 09:04 — Jannes and Jambres & Counterfeit Occult Power 09:40 — Matthew 24 and Jesus' Last-Days Warning 11:00 — The Days of Noah & the Increase of Evil 12:14 — Religion That Contradicts the Word of God 14:20 — Moral Corruption With a Religious Appearance 15:00 — Divine Healing Versus Counterfeit Spiritual Power 17:24 — God Is Perfecting His People 18:32 — What Does "Times of Difficulty" Really Mean? 19:52 — Dangerous Times Are Produced by Dangerous People 21:44 — Lovers of Self: The Foundational Last-Days Disorder 24:39 — When Christianity Becomes About SELF 25:46 — The Great Commission & the Authority of Biblical Truth 26:33 — "My Truth" Versus God's Truth 27:39 — When Worship Becomes About Feelings 28:51 — Genesis 3:5: The Ancient Temptation to Become Like God 29:13 — AI, the Singularity & Humanity's Search for Godhood 30:00 — The Three Corrupt Loves: Self, Money & Pleasure 31:12 — Christ Versus Antichrist: The Battle of Allegiance 33:23 — God Will Manifest Himself Through a Submitted People 34:00 — Pride, Arrogance & the Devaluation of Human Life 36:57 — Preparing a Culture for the Antichrist 39:32 — "Unholy": When Sacred Things Become Common 40:00 — Isaiah 5:20: Calling Evil Good and Good Evil 41:00 — "Heartless": The Loss of Natural Affection 45:16 — The Progressive Dehumanization of Humanity 49:20 — "Unappeasable": Refusing Reconciliation 50:00 — "Slanderous": When Humanity Imitates the Accuser 52:27 — Discernment Versus Slander in Christian Ministry 53:35 — Without Self-Control 54:00 — The Fruit of the Spirit Versus Flesh-Governed Humanity 56:57 — Spiritual Bondage & the Loss of Self-Control 58:37 — Religion Without Power 59:00 — Christian Vocabulary Without Biblical Obedience 1:00:00 — Worship Without Holiness & Grace Without Repentance 1:00:51 — The Downward Spiral of Last-Days Humanity 1:02:00 — Humanity Moving From God's Image Toward Self-Exaltation 1:03:19 — The Remnant Must Become Serious With God 1:04:19 — Why Spiritual Warfare Cannot Be Ignored 1:04:49 — God Is Calling His People to Holiness 1:06:03 — Humanity Was Birthed in a Battlefield 1:07:12 — Learn Your Authority and Obedience Before the Battle Intensifies 1:10:24 — Final Encouragement & KIB Study Notes 1:10:47 — Biblical Life TV Partner Message CALL TO ACTION We are watching many of the conditions described in 2 Timothy 3:1–9 emerge around us. But the believer's assignment is not to become consumed with darkness. It is to become increasingly conformed to Jesus Christ. If the culture abandons truth—we stand for truth. If the culture rejects holiness—we pursue holiness. If the culture enthrones self—we enthrone Christ. If the world becomes increasingly governed by the flesh—we become increasingly governed by the Holy Spirit. Now is the time to GO DEEP IN THE WORD and GO DEEP IN GOD. If this episode has strengthened and challenged you, please LIKE this video, SUBSCRIBE to Biblical Life TV, and SHARE KIB 548 with believers who need to understand the spiritual significance of 2 Timothy 3. PARTNER WITH BIBLICAL LIFE TV Kingdom Intelligence Briefing and Biblical Life TV are made possible through the prayers and faithful financial support of our friends and partners around the world. The program specifically identifies its partners as making this teaching possible and asks viewers to prayerfully consider supporting the ministry. Your partnership helps us continue producing biblical teaching designed to inform, nurture, prepare, and empower the remnant for the unfolding of end-times prophecy. Biblical Life P.O. Box 160 Seymour, Missouri 65746-0160 Online giving is also available through the Biblical Life store. Thank you to everyone who prays, gives, shares these programs, and stands with Biblical Life TV as we work to prepare the remnant for the days ahead.

As part of an ongoing series, V Rogish joins the show to discuss "esoteric Christianity," and defend the Christian faith in general, while being presented with hard questions about the not-so-unique universality of Christian doctrine. *The is the FREE archive, which includes advertisements. Subscribe to remove ads. The show has no sponsorship and has been banned countless places. 

Join us for Episode 4251 of Day1, as Rev. Dr. Will Willimon, Professor of the Practice of Christian Ministry at Duke Divinity School and retired United Methodist Bishop, preaches "Unlimited Forgiveness" from Matthew 18:21-33. As the church moves through the season after Pentecost, Willimon confronts our appetite for limits on mercy, tracing Jesus' parable of the unforgiving servant with humor and honesty about debts we'd rather not forgive. With his extensive experience in both ministry and the academy, he reflects on vocation, aging, and reconciliation.

 2 Corinthians 2:3-11. 

The Fellowship of Christian Athletes' exciting local radio program, Heart of the Athlete, airs Saturdays at 9:30 am MST on 94.5 FM and 790 AM Boise's Solid Talk. The show is hosted by local FCA Director, Ken Lewis. This program is a great opportunity to listen to local athletes and coaches share their lives, combining sports with their faith in Jesus Christ each week!Our relationships will demonstrate steadfast commitment to Jesus Christ and His Word through Integrity, Serving, Teamwork and Excellence.NNU Box 3359623 S University BlvdNampa, ID 83686United States(208) 697-1051klewis@fca.orghttps://www.fcaidaho.org/Podcast Website: https://www.790kspd.com/podcast-heart-of-the-athlete/

Join Filip Milosavljevic and Joey Oh for the lesson study this week.

The Brentwood Statement is a collaborative statement from Southern Baptist leaders, led by Lifeway, designed to help guide Christian ministers as they navigate the opportunities and challenges of AI in ministry and everyday life. Dr. Jason Thacker, director of the ERLC's Research Institute and a senior fellow, served as the primary author of that statement. On today's episode, Dr. RaShan Frost, ERLC's director of research, speaks with Dr. Thacker about how pastors and church leaders can approach artificial intelligence with wisdom and discernment. They also discuss how technology is shaping us and where Christians can exercise wisdom as they approach AI in their lives and ministries. Listen to more episodes of The ERLC Podcast at erlc.com/podcast.

Artificial intelligence is already changing how pastors research, write, communicate, and manage the practical demands of ministry. But does using AI necessarily make a preacher less faithful, less authentic, or less dependent upon God?Mike Neglia speaks with pastor, theologian, and AI developer Miles DeBenedictis about the opportunities and ethical challenges that artificial intelligence presents for Christian ministry. Rather than offering either uncritical enthusiasm or fearful rejection, Miles encourages pastors to think carefully about authorship, disclosure, human responsibility, and the nature of consciousness itself.The conversation explores practical uses of AI in sermon preparation and church administration, including research assistance, prayer-request processing, Bible translation, and tools that can preserve more time for prayer, pastoral care, and the ministry of the Word. Mike and Miles also consider the dangers of pastoral deepfakes, cloned voices, deceptive content, autonomous AI agents, and outsourcing the spiritual and intellectual work that belongs to the preacher.At the heart of the episode is a deeper theological question: what does it mean to be human? Miles argues that the church needs a robust biblical anthropology—grounded in the image of God—if it is going to respond wisely to claims about machine intelligence and artificial consciousness.The episode concludes with a practical look at SermonBrief, a research tool designed to assist preachers without writing their sermons for them, and a memorable reminder that AI generally amplifies the habits, convictions, and character already present in the person using it.Special offer for Expositors Collective listenersReceive 20% off SermonBrief for your first year with the code:EXPOSITORSLearn more and sign up:SermonBriefhttps://sermonbrief.com/About Miles DeBenedictisMiles DeBenedictis is the senior pastor of Cross Connection Church in Escondido, California, where he has served since 2008. He has nearly three decades of pastoral and Bible-teaching experience and is pursuing doctoral studies in artificial intelligence ethics at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.Miles is also the founder and CEO of Nomion AI, which develops technology for churches, pastors, and Christian organizations. His ministry and technology work has included collaboration with Enduring Word and Blue Letter Bible.Cross Connection Churchhttps://ccchurch.com/Miles DeBenedictis on Substackhttps://pastormiles.substack.com/Nomion AIhttps://nomion.ai/Line Upon Line — Miles DeBenedictis teaching archivehttps://www.lineuponline.com/Miles DeBenedictis at Blue Letter Biblehttps://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/debenedictis_miles/The Southern Baptist Theological Seminaryhttps://www.sbts.edu/Resources mentionedMinistry and preaching resourcesSermonBrief — AI-assisted sermon research created to support the preacher's study without writing the sermonhttps://sermonbrief.com/Docent Group — the sermon-research service that helped inspire aspects of SermonBriefhttps://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-researchDispatch — church communication and administrative tools developed by Nomion AIhttps://dispatch.church/Enduring Word Bible Commentaryhttps://enduringword.com/Blue Letter Biblehttps://www.blueletterbible.org/Line Upon Linehttps://www.lineuponline.com/Tools, Not Taskmasters: A Christian Dominion Diagnostic for AI — Miles DeBenedictishttps://pastormiles.substack.com/p/tools-not-taskmasters-a-christianBooks mentionedThe Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World — Iain McGilchristhttps://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300245929/the-master-and-his-emissary/The Matter with Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions, and the Unmaking of the World — Iain McGilchristhttps://channelmcgilchrist.com/matter-with-things/Mere Christianity — C. S. Lewishttps://www.harpercollins.com/products/mere-christianity-c-s-lewis

Sabbath School panel discussion and insight by 3ABN pastors and teachers. This podcast episode follows 2026 quarter 3, lesson 10 of the adult Bible study guide book. This quarter's book topic is “First and Second Corinthians”, and this week's Sabbath School lesson is titled “Authentic Christian Ministry”. Join us every week for a fresh and relevant study of the word of God.  Reading: 2 Cor. 3:1–9, 2 Cor. 4:7–18, 2 Cor. 5:11–15, Col. 1:19–23, Eph. 2:13–16, 2 Cor. 6:11–7:1, 2 Corinthians 7. Memory Text: “For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you, with many tears, not that you should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have so abundantly for you” (2 Corinthians 2:4, NKJV). August 30 - September 04 Sunday, Ryan Johnson – Fruits of an Authentic MinistryMonday, John Lomacang – Suffering and GloryTuesday, Jill Morikone – Christ-focused Ministry of ReconciliationWednesday, James Rafferty – Call to HolinessThursday, Shelley Quinn – Comfort and Joy Want the Panelists' notes? You can sign up here: https://3abnsabbathschoolpanel.com/notes/ Questions or Comments? Email us at mail@3abn.org Donate: https://3abn.org/donate-quick.html

 2 Corinthians 1:3-11 

Lesson #10 for Saturday, September 5, 2026 1 and 2 Corinthians Adult Sabbath School Lesson 3rd Quarter, 2026

Join It Is Written Sabbath School host Eric Flickinger and this quarter's author, Dr. Adenilton Aguiar, as they provide additional insights into this week's Sabbath School lesson, "Authentic Christian Ministry."

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/your-daily-portion-with-l-david-harris--2912188/support.About Your Daily PortionYour Daily Portion with L. David Harris is a Bible-centered teaching ministry committed to helping people engage Scripture daily with clarity and purpose. This program is a service of Your Daily Portion Ministries, Inc., and is made possible through the faithful support of listeners and viewers.If this teaching blesses you, consider supporting the work so it can continue reaching others around the world through radio, podcasts, and digital platforms.Support the ministry:

Authentic Christian Ministry — Review of Lesson #10 of the 3rd Quarter of 2026 -The Sabbath School Lesson study guide can be found here:— https://ssnet.org/lessons/26c/less10.html— https://www.adultbiblestudyguide.org/archives— https://sabbath-school.adventech.io/enThe title of this quarter's theme is: First and Second Corinthians: The Essence of Christian Life and Witness, where we will look at God's instructions to use for daily Christian living as outlined by the Apostle Paul in the epistles to the Corinthians.For the next 13 weeks (July to September 2026), we will look at God's desire to be in a relationship with humankind, and what that means for each of us personally.Related Podcasts:— Why the Resurrection is so Vital to Christianity— The Divinity of Jesus Christ— Christ, Humanity and Salvation— Why Did Jesus Come to Earth?— Everlasting Covenant— Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled— Do You Know What to Do?— Jesus Gives Us Rest— God's Promises to me are sure— Noble Prince of PeaceRelated Podcasts at TrueWisdom:— If Christ is NOT risen...— Revelations of the Godhead— What is "Blaspheming the Holy Spirit?"Text UsSupport the showSend questions or comments to: BibleQuestions@ASBzone.comThe Key Principles of Effective Bible Study is a resource which outlines core concepts shown in the Scriptures that will help you to better understand many Biblical themes and doctrines.  We have an extended, 24-part podcast series on these principles, and a condensed, 9-part series called God's Precious Word, that is based on the same resource.We also recommend that you check out the True Wisdom podcast which I co-host with Robert Baker -- a different format for Bible Study.Finally, here are some additional highly recommended resources:Other Resources:— e-Sword Bible Software— MySword Bible Software— Blue Letter Bible Study Site— "Knowing the Bible" Bible MapsWe pray that all of these resources will be very helpful to you in your Bible Studies.

The Fellowship of Christian Athletes' exciting local radio program, Heart of the Athlete, airs Saturdays at 9:30 am MST on 94.5 FM and 790 AM Boise's Solid Talk. The show is hosted by local FCA Director, Ken Lewis. This program is a great opportunity to listen to local athletes and coaches share their lives, combining sports with their faith in Jesus Christ each week!Our relationships will demonstrate steadfast commitment to Jesus Christ and His Word through Integrity, Serving, Teamwork and Excellence.NNU Box 3359623 S University BlvdNampa, ID 83686United States(208) 697-1051klewis@fca.orghttps://www.fcaidaho.org/Podcast Website: https://www.790kspd.com/podcast-heart-of-the-athlete/

The Fellowship of Christian Athletes' exciting local radio program, Heart of the Athlete, airs Saturdays at 9:30 am MST on 94.5 FM and 790 AM Boise's Solid Talk. The show is hosted by local FCA Director, Ken Lewis. This program is a great opportunity to listen to local athletes and coaches share their lives, combining sports with their faith in Jesus Christ each week!Our relationships will demonstrate steadfast commitment to Jesus Christ and His Word through Integrity, Serving, Teamwork and Excellence.NNU Box 3359623 S University BlvdNampa, ID 83686United States(208) 697-1051klewis@fca.orghttps://www.fcaidaho.org/Podcast Website: https://www.790kspd.com/podcast-heart-of-the-athlete/

This episode examines the controversy surrounding G3 Ministries, the allegations involving Pastor Tom Buck, the resignation of Ethan Jago, and the broader decline of a once influential institution within Reformed evangelicalism.The episode begins with audio from Pastor Matt Sykes of Praise Mill Baptist Church, the flagship church associated with G3 Ministries, discussing an impending article from Protestia. From there, we examine the controversy surrounding Tom Buck, including questions about sermon preparation, attribution, anonymous allegations, and the role of G3 leadership.We also examine Phil Johnson's discussion of the controversy, Protestia's reporting, and Ethan Jago's resignation from G3. The larger question is not simply what happened in this particular dispute, but what the controversy says about Christian leadership, institutional authority, virtue, and the future of parachurch ministries.G3 once occupied an important place in the Reformed evangelical world, attracting prominent speakers and thousands of people to its conferences. But the transcript argues that a series of controversies, fractures, deaths, and disqualifications have brought that era to an end.The question, then, is: What comes next?If Christians want to see a bold Christian vision for America, they need Christian leaders who possess biblical qualifications, virtue, and integrity. The future may not look like the large parachurch institutions of the past. It may instead require new models of Christian fellowship, discipleship, church networking, and theological education.00:00 — The G3 Ministries Controversy04:19 — Why G3 Matters for Christian America09:07 — The Rise and Fall of G3 Ministries15:20 — Tom Buck, Phil Johnson, and the Plagiarism Controversy21:49 — Ethan Jago Resigns From G330:17 — What Comes Next for Christian Ministry?Jon's Music: jonharristunes.comTo Support the Podcast: https://www.jonharrismedia.com/support/Become a Patronhttps://www.patreon.com/jonharrispodcastSubstack: https://substack.com/@jonharris Follow Jon on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jonharris1989Follow Jon on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jonharris1989/Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/conversations-that-matter8971/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ronald Zion Roseboro is the founder and visionary ofThe Shame Free Life Coaching and Consulting LLC, which provides expert shame-based trauma-informed coaching services for men. He holds a Bachelor of Arts in Christian Ministry from Lee University and a Master of Artsin Human Services Counseling with a focus in CrisisResponse and Trauma from Liberty University. Ronald holds certifications in Trauma-Informed Care and Coaching, Sexual Addiction Recovery Coaching, Compulsive and Addictive Sexual Behavior, and Professional Life Coaching through Light University. He is a member of AACC (American Association of Christian Counselors) and ICCA (International Christian Coaching Association).Link to episode can be found here: #drdanamzallag, #drdanpodcast, #Happinessjourneywithdrdan,#ddanmotivation, #inspiringinterviews, #drdancbt, #drdantherapy,#drdancoaching, #drdanhappiness,  

The Fellowship of Christian Athletes' exciting local radio program, Heart of the Athlete, airs Saturdays at 9:30 am MST on 94.5 FM and 790 AM Boise's Solid Talk. The show is hosted by local FCA Director, Ken Lewis. This program is a great opportunity to listen to local athletes and coaches share their lives, combining sports with their faith in Jesus Christ each week!Our relationships will demonstrate steadfast commitment to Jesus Christ and His Word through Integrity, Serving, Teamwork and Excellence.NNU Box 3359623 S University BlvdNampa, ID 83686United States(208) 697-1051klewis@fca.orghttps://www.fcaidaho.org/Podcast Website: https://www.790kspd.com/podcast-heart-of-the-athlete/

On today's program, the State Department funnels $2 billion to Christian ministries to provide health and humanitarian aid in more than a dozen countries. We'll have details. And, new regulations make it harder for Christian ministries to operate in India — but one ministry we talked with remains committed to preaching the gospel there. Plus, a cybersecurity breach exposes donor date.  But first, the Southern Baptist Convention is facing a new federal lawsuit. Parents in South Carolina have filed a proposed class-action lawsuit against the SBC and its Executive Committee. They’re also suing Pawleys Island Community Church, its academy, and several former leaders.  The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. We get editorial, database, and other technical support from Christina Darnell, Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, Heidi Allums, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Henry Durand, Adelle Banks, Yonat Shimron, Bob Smietana, Kim Roberts, Neva Piombino, Aaron Earls, Michaela Gordoni, Makella Knowles, and Jessica Eturralde. A special thanks to the Christian Index and Lifeway Research for contributing material for this week's podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.

Here are links to some of the stories mentioned in today's episode:   Christianity Today reports that “after making deep cuts in global health, food assistance, and other foreign aid based on allegations of fraud and abuse in USAID, the Trump administration announced $2 billion in humanitarian-aid funding for faith-based groups, with a consortium of US Christian organizations overseeing $1.4 billion.” Here's Warren's 2016 talk to the Western Conservative Summit. It's called: “The Political Illusion: Choosing Christianity Over Political Ideology.” The talk begins at the 2:35 mark. The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) does an annual survey that with a sample size of more than 68,000 from more than 400 colleges and universities. It's one of the most comprehensive surveys of its kind. The survey asks about church attendance, and – according to Ryan Burge, who has parsed the numbers – “the two most “teched up” majors are the least Christian: data science and computer science. Just 27-28% of these folks identify as Protestants, Catholics, or generic Christians. In contrast, about 30% say that they are atheist/agnostic and another 13% are non-religious. In other words, they are about fifteen points more apt to be nones than Christians. An excellent article in the online British publication “Premier Christianity” by Derek Hughes reflects on the “quiet power of slow faithfulness and asks whether Christians have forgotten how to commit to work whose fruit they may not live to see.”   The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. I'm Christina Darnell, along with Warren Smith. Until next time, may God bless you.

Dean Douglas Sweeney talks with Hutton Cate, MDiv '24 and current PhD student, and J.D. Payne, who serves as the Thomas Welby Bozeman Chair of Christian Ministry at Samford. Dr. Payne and a group of students, including Hutton, recently presented research on the least-evangelical areas of the US at national conferences.

Dan Wuthrich | 2 John | 1. The Foundation of Christian Fellowship (1-3) 2. The Fuel for Obedient Love (4-6) 3. The Reason for Doctrinal Vigilance (7-11) 4. The Goal of Christian Ministry (12-13)

The Fellowship of Christian Athletes' exciting local radio program, Heart of the Athlete, airs Saturdays at 9:30 am MST on 94.5 FM and 790 AM Boise's Solid Talk. The show is hosted by local FCA Director, Ken Lewis. This program is a great opportunity to listen to local athletes and coaches share their lives, combining sports with their faith in Jesus Christ each week!Our relationships will demonstrate steadfast commitment to Jesus Christ and His Word through Integrity, Serving, Teamwork and Excellence.NNU Box 3359623 S University BlvdNampa, ID 83686United States(208) 697-1051klewis@fca.orghttps://www.fcaidaho.org/Podcast Website: https://www.790kspd.com/podcast-heart-of-the-athlete/

There is a troubling pattern emerging of government officials in America's bluest states punishing religious organizations and individuals for simply living their faith. We talk about it with Andrea Picciotti-Bayer.

We often speak about the pressures and heartbreaks of pastoral ministry. But we speak far less about its joys, privileges and eternal rewards.Matt Fuller, Senior Minister of Christ Church Mayfair, joins us to discuss his new book, The Joyful Pastor (Despite Everything).We talk about difficult sheep, false accusations, losing joy, practising thankfulness, avoiding burnout and returning daily to Christ.And we explore something pastors rarely discuss: the reward promised by the Chief Shepherd.“When the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.” — 1 Peter 5:4An honest and encouraging conversation for weary pastors.To watch or listen to Bible Teaching from Dominic Steele at Village Church Annandale Sydney goto this link. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Shannon Simmons just won the national championship in women's pole vault for the 50 to 54-year-old Masters division. She took 20 years off from the sport. Came back two and a half years ago. And won. But this conversation isn't really about pole vaulting. It's about what happens when you come back to something you thought was behind you. What it takes. What it makes possible. And why the thing you put down might still be waiting for you. Shannon is one of my clients and one of my Ohio people — and I was lucky enough to be on the track with her and her daughter the weekend before nationals. I photographed them together. Her daughter is now learning to pole vault. Shannon looked at the photos and cried because she could see her daughter looking at her in a way she doesn't get to see on the day-to-day. 3 Things You'll Take Away: Your past is a blueprint, not a dead end. The skills, discipline, and depth you built doing one thing — pole vaulting, parenting, building a business — are transferable to everything else. Shannon calls it the blueprint. This conversation shows you exactly what that looks like in practice.Being in a different place than everyone else doesn't mean you're behind. Sometimes you're just doing something different. Or ahead. This episode has a Tour de France metaphor that will reframe how you see your own path.Coming back to something you loved is its own kind of winning. Shannon didn't pick up a new sport. She came back to the one that lit her up — and it became the thread that pulled everything else together. Her kids, her marriage, her identity. One reclaimed passion. Everything else followed.

E.W. Jackson shares his remarkable journey from foster care and gang life to Harvard Law School, salvation, ministry, and a calling to stand for biblical truth. He discusses the power of fatherhood, family, faith, racial reconciliation, America's Christian heritage, and discovering God's purpose.Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.truthandliberty.net/subscribe  Donate here: https://www.truthandliberty.net/donate  

What keeps a faith vibrant after four decades of ministry? That unexpected question, asked by a young church leader in Baltimore after a discussion on archaeology and the early church, became the catalyst for one of the most important chapters I've written in Missiological Theology. In this episode of The 10-Minute Ephesiologist, I explore what I have come to call missiological spirituality—a way of life that begins not with spiritual practices alone, but with the Triune God who continually speaks and acts. Rather than reducing spirituality to knowledge, experience, or ministry activity, I propose a rhythm of curiosity, discovery, reflection, wonder, and participation that draws us ever deeper into God's perichoretic life and mission. If you've ever wondered why some faith grows stale while other faith remains vibrant, this conversation may help you ask two life-changing questions: What is God saying? What is God doing? Keywords: missiological spirituality, missiology, Triune God, Trinity, perichoresis, perichoretic mission, missiological theology, curiosity, discovery, reflection, wonder, participation, spiritual formation, Christian spirituality, theology, archaeology, New Testament archaeology, archaeology and the Bible, ecclesiology, mission of God, missio Dei, discipleship, church planting, theological education, discernment, God speaks, God acts, Kingdom of God, early church, Ephesiology, Michael T. Cooper Key Takeaways Why one simple question in Baltimore reshaped my understanding of spirituality. Why spirituality must begin with the missionary nature of the Triune God. How God's self-revelation through His words and His works forms the foundation of Christian spirituality. The fivefold rhythm of Curiosity → Discovery → Reflection → Wonder → Participation. Why theology without wonder becomes intellectualism. Why wonder without participation becomes emotionalism. Why ministry itself can become mechanical if it is no longer sustained by ongoing curiosity about God's activity. How archaeology, Scripture, culture, and everyday life continually invite us to discern God's presence and mission. Why the Christian life is best understood not as a ladder to climb, but as a lifelong spiral into deeper communion with God and fuller participation in His mission. Connect With Us Follow Ephesiology: Website | Twitter | Instagram | YouTube Follow Andrew Johnson @thediscfan.bsky.social If this episode encouraged you, please leave a review and share it with others exploring missional living in post-Christian contexts. Thanks for doing theology in community with us today! If you have a question or topic that you'd like to hear addressed on the Ephesiology Podcast, just send it to Andrew at thediscfan@gmail.com. Donate Find the podcast on your favorite podcast app Just search for “Ephesiology” Our Podcasters Michael CooperProfessor | Missiologist | AuthorMichael is the missiologist in residence with East West where he focuses on equipping and empowering church leaders in evangelism, discipleship, leadership, and catalyzing church planting movements in the most difficult to reach places on the planet. He is the author of Ephesiology: The Study of the Ephesian Movement as well as many other books and academic articles. He has lectured at universities around the world and serves as affiliate faculty at Kairos University where he facilitates the degree programs in partnership with Ephesiology Master Classes.Andrew JohnsonMinistry Lead, West Village ChurchAndrew is a proud husband, father and pastor who desires all to know the one true King. He is honored to serve at West Village Church in Victoria, BC. Previously, he's ministered in Houston, Chicago, Indy, Flagstaff and Tempe in a variety of church contexts. Andrew has a BA in Christian Ministry from Trinity International University and an MA from Phoenix Seminary. He is currently a Doctor of Ministry student at Kairos University and is the co-host of the Ephesiology Podcast. When not at work, he's an avid disc golfing, vinyl playing, Spider-Man following/collecting fellow. Go Pacers. Pick up Dr. Cooper’s latest book Religions, politics, and education shaped the cultural world of Asia Minor where a new faith emerged that would change history. Gods, Emperors, Philosophers, and a New Movement uncovers how the earliest Christians navigated—and often disrupted and adapted—the dominant forces of their age. Drawing on decades of research, fieldwork, and teaching, Michael T. Cooper takes readers beneath the surface of Ephesos, Smyrna, Pergamon, and other cities to reveal how temples, inscriptions, and civic spaces illuminate the missionary impulse of the first Christians. Far from being silent, the archaeological record testifies to their resilience, creativity, and bold proclamation of the gospel in a world saturated with competing loyalties. This is more than history. By examining how the early church encountered powerful religious traditions, political ideologies, and systems of education, today's missionaries and church leaders gain fresh vision for gospel engagement in their own pluralistic and contested contexts. The dynamics that shaped mission in the first centuries—identity, power, worldview, and cultural disruption—remain central to how the good news advances today. This book is an invitation to rediscover the mission of God in the archaeological record and to discern its enduring relevance for faithful witness in the twenty-first century. Buy on Amazon Do you enjoy the Ephesiology Podcast? Partner with the Pod The Ephesiology Podcast comes to you from a desire to engage in community conversations about the intersection of theology and culture. We do not believe such dialogue should come with a cost so the podcast will always be free. However, if you've benefited from the Ephesiology Podcast, would you consider a nominal $5 per month donation? All proceeds from the podcast go toward helping bring needed theological education to the majority world through our Ephesiology Master Class initiative to end a theological famine. We'd be honored to partner with you to continue providing solid biblical, theological, and missiological content for listeners around the world. Donate Empowering Future Church Leaders Imagine a world where passionate, equipped Christian leaders spread God's Word in areas with the greatest need—leaders grounded in both deep theology and practical ministry skills, trained to make a lasting impact in their communities. Through your support, this vision can become a reality for students from countries like Malawi, Tanzania, Kenya, Nepal, and India who are eager to teach and multiply disciple-makers in their own regions. Learn More Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement If you want to understand principles for the growth of Christianity in the first century, the place to begin is the city of Ephesus. In this winsome study, Ephesiology offers readers a comprehensive view of the empowering work of the Holy Spirit in the most significant city of the New Testament, and compels us to ask the question: how can we effectively connect Christ to our culture? “Masterfully handling the book of Ephesians and using its content as a definitive guide, Michael Cooper lays a theologically strong foundation that is both corrective and directive to disciple making movements. The principles he gleans from the book of Ephesians and related texts, help to ensure the on-going multiplication and maturation of a movement. Because these are supra-cultural principles, they are applicable anywhere in the world.” Marvin J. Newell, Staff Missiologist, Missio Nexus, Author of Crossing Cultures in Scripture Buy This Now! Educating to Shift the Tracks of History To shift the tracks of history requires leaders who are equipped to critically assess and engage the contours of contemporary culture. As a new initiative in collaboration with the Movement Leaders Collective, Kairos University, and Ephesiology, we deliver just-in-time theological education focused on issues important to you, mxAcademy is designed as the theological and missiological foundation to unlock your potential as a movement leader and catalytic thinker. mxAcademy is a dynamic and innovative educational experience rooted in mDNA.We dream of a church fully equipped, fully mature, fully mobilized, and fully alive. A church that lives and breathes the Good News of Jesus! Learn More Join a Community Conversation at Ephesiology Master Classes Areopagus Symposium Taking its inspiration from the historical and philosophical legacy of Athens, Greece, the Areopagus Symposium focuses on intellectual and philosophical topics related to Christology, missiology, and ecclesiology. We invite scholars, theologians, and practitioners from diverse backgrounds to engage in a profound exploration of the theological landscape at the intersection of these vital disciplines. Sign up for an Ephesiology Master Classes account and gain free access to the Areopagus Symposium. Check it out! The Ephesiology Podcast and Ephesiology Master Classes are ministries of TELOS.GO, a registered 501c3 non-profit agency committed to imaginatively missional ways of engageing culture, church planting, and theological education. Your donation to the podcast is tax deductible.

·      Jim: Welcome to the iWork4Him Power thought for the day, we are Jim and Martha Brangenberg with iWork4Him   ·      Martha: When Jim & I were 13 we committed our lives to full-time Christian Ministry.  So naturally I thought I would be a pastor's wife or a missionary.  ·      Jim: I thought I was going to be a youth pastor.    ·      Martha: When we got married, I naturally thought that ministry was in our future.  ·      Jim: Martha was right about that.  But we were both wrong about the location of our ministry. We kept thinking we were headed for church ministry.   ·      Martha: But Jim and I are both good at business and we ran an insurance agency. We didn't know our ministry was right there in front of us. We treated people well.   ·      Jim: But we never saw it as a ministry. In fact, no one ever spoke into our lives that we could have a ministry in our workplace.  ·      Martha: But we were in ministry and our workplace ministry calling perfectly matched our God given gifts, talents, and abilities.    ·      Jim: So, are you committed to full-time Christian Ministry? You'll find it at your workplace today!  ·      Martha:  For more about iWork4Him and the iWork4Him podcast, go to iWork4Him dot com.  That's iWork the number 4 Him dot com.