Podcasts about jackso

Step into the heart of an ancient woodland as we explore Ashenbank Wood, a Site of Special Scientific Interest rich in history and teeming with wildlife. Woodland has stood here for centuries, but this haven is under threat. A proposed tunnel project, the Lower Thames Crossing, could harm the irreplaceable ecosystem and ancient trees here. Jack, leader of our woods under threat team, explains what's at stake and the challenges and strategies involved in trying to maintain a delicate balance between development and nature. A decision on whether the project goes ahead is due from Government in May 2025. We also meet estate manager Clive, who delves into Ashenbank Wood's history, tells us more about why ancient woodland is so important and shows us the unusual approach of strapping deadwood to trees. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Today I am at a site of Special Scientific Interest in the Kent Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which is teeming with extraordinary wildlife, and I'm told you can stand in the shadows of gnarled veteran trees and even spot some shy dormice, rare bats, and woodland wildflowers if you're there at the right time of year. But it is also a site under threat. National Highways propose to build a new tunnel linking Essex and Kent under the River Thames, and many feel that that will create a threat to the trees and wildlife here. So I've come not just for a walk, but to chat to experts and the first is the man responsible for coordinating the Woodland Trust response to big infrastructure projects and to chat to him about how infrastructure and nature can live hand in hand.  Jack: So I'm Jack Taylor, I'm the programme lead for the woods under threat team at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Brilliant. And we're at Ashenbank Woods?  Jack: We are indeed.  Adam: Good, OK, sorry, yeah *laughs* I know I should sound more sure, we are at Ashenbank Woods.  Jack: I think its full title might be Ashenbank Woods SSSI, site of special scientific interest.  Adam: Oh right yes, yes. And we're going to see a bit later a colleague of yours, Clive, who will tell us more about the details of this woodland. But the reason why I wanted to talk to you first as we walk through, what is a lovely, actually dappled, dappled bit of woodland here is about your role in protecting places like this from development because, so what, what is your job?  Jack: Yeah, it's beautiful. That's a good question *laughs* what is my job? I I suppose the the base of it, the basis of it, the foundation really is about trying to protect ancient woods and ancient and veteran trees from forms of development, but also from other threats outside of that as well. So non-development threats like air pollution, pests and diseases, deer overbrowsing. Most of my work does focus on working within the development sector and trying to protect against those development threats.  Adam: Right, and you're the project lead.   Jack: Yeah.  Adam: When I first saw that, I thought you meant you're the project lead for this woodland, but you are not. You are the project lead for all development threatening woodlands throughout the UK. This is an extraordinary, I mean that's quite a job.  Jack: Yeah, it's it's a lot. There are a lot of threats to have to deal with across the UK because we're always building always sort of growing as a nation. We always need sort of new forms of infrastructure and new sort of housing. We recognise that. But all of that does come with the added impact of having threats on our ancient woods and ancient and veteran trees, so we have a team of myself and my my wonderful team of four as well.  Adam: Alright. Yeah, it's not big.  Jack: No, it's not big, but they they are enthusiastic and they're great at what they do.  Adam: So this is quite a political area because we've got a new government which has promised to improve lots of things, get the country working, build lots of homes. I think, I think the Prime Minister only recently talked about, you know, we're going to get spades in the ground, we're going to be doing stuff. Well, is it your job to stop all of that, I mean, or how do you balance what needs to be done for the country and what needs to be done to protect woodlands?  Jack: Yeah. So it's so none of this is really about stopping development from from happening and we we have to be sort of quite clear that that's not what we're set out to do as an organisation. It's about trying to ensure that where development is happening. It's not going to impact on our most important and our most valuable woods and trees and that's why we do have a focus specifically on ancient woodland, but and then also on ancient and veteran trees as well, because we know that for the most part, there are lots of really valuable woods and wooded and wooded habitats and trees that are plenty sort of valuable and important. But we know that ancient words and ancient and veteran trees are likely to be our most important sites. We have to focus on protecting those. So we do have to object to some developments where we think the harm is gonna be too great, but we're never really looking to stop them from happening, unless the harm is too great.  Adam: OK. Which way?  Jack: Umm, I think right.   Adam: OK. So one of the things I've noticed before, I mean, when I was following the HS2 debate, was politicians were going ‘it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. We'll cut this down, we're going to replace them. I tell you what, we'll do you a deal, we'll plant two for every one we cut down.' On the face of it that sounds reasonable?  Jack: OK. Yeah, not to us.   Adam: Why not?   Jack: Well, I think if you're, if you're looking at ancient woodlands and ancient and veteran trees, you're looking at something that is an irreplaceable habitat. There is no sort of recreating that habitat in in one space again, once it's been lost and the reason for that is these things take centuries to evolve and develop to create those sort of vital links between animals, plants, fungi, the soils as well. So ancient woodlands are especially important for their soils. So you can't really just take those soils and put them elsewhere because once that happens you completely disturb the relationships that have built up over centuries within them. And ancient and veteran trees, so you're talking about trees that for the most part are going to be centuries years old. How do you how do you replace centuries of development creating these wonderful sort of niche habitats for different parts of our ecosystems?   Adam: And is it, you said quite clearly that it's not your job or the Trust's job just to stop development, just to sort of blanket go, ‘hey, stop building' so is it about going, ‘don't build here' or is it about saying, ‘if you're gonna build here, this is how to do it with the least amount of impact'? What's the sort of your approach?  Jack: Yeah. In some cases it is about saying not, not building here. It depends what we're dealing with, I suppose so it's different if you're dealing with, say, housing developments or leisure facilities as opposed to something like rail infrastructure or road infrastructure, which is quite linear in nature, so they can only really go in one place to deliver its purpose, whereas housing is not as locationally dependent.  Adam: I see. So you feel you've got a better argument if it's a housing project, cause you can go, ‘put it somewhere else', but the train journey from A to B has to sort of go through this area. You're you're on a loser there are you?  Jack: Well, sometimes, but there are there are ways of of getting around sort of kind of impact. I mean it doesn't have to go absolutely sort of A to B in one way. You can think very carefully about the design to try and minimise impact on ancient woods. You can also look at alternative solutions, engineering solutions like tunnelling for example, so HS2 is a good example of that. The Phase One section which is going ahead between London and Birmingham, they actually put in a tunnel under the Chilterns, which saved about 14 hectares of woodland saved these three really good prime areas of ancient wood. And of course the Chilterns Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty came into that in a way, and they were trying to protect that also. But that was one solution to stop wildlife and nature being harmed.  Adam: Right. So that's, was this, were you involved with that?   Jack: Yeah, yeah.   Adam: Amazing. So how difficult was that to get that that project through and try to avoid the destruction of all that woodland?  Jack: Well, a lot a lot of destruction still is happening from High Speed 2. So about 20 hectares of ancient woodland has been destroyed at this stage now. A lot of the sort of preparation works for the Phase One section, that London to Birmingham bit, are now complete. So it it was difficult, but it it the way in which we were involved is we really brought ancient woodland to the table and put it at the forefront of considerations and and gave it a voice I suppose. It's not that it wasn't being looked at at all, but not nearly to the degree that we thought it needed to be looked at. And so we sort of kind of introduced that idea of well look, there's ancient woodland here, you need to be thinking carefully about the design and, you know, you think you're talking about halving the impacts on ancient woodlands from from our sort of kind of involvement and involvement of other conservation organisations in there as well.  Adam: So a lot of it is trying to say, to make the argument, but also to raise the profile of that argument,   Jack: Sure.  Adam: To bring, population and say this is actually a loss. You know, cutting it down is is a loss. So how much harder or easier has it got for you to make that argument?   Jack: Well, do you know, interestingly, I I would probably say that projects like High Speed 2, where there is such a big argument around the ancient woodland has raised the profile of ancient woodland itself. That's one of the sort of silver linings of that project for us, it's put sort of ancient woodland on the map in terms of habitat that needs to and is worthy of protection. So I think a lot of people now understand ancient woodland a bit better and what it is. There's still lots of awareness to do, you know, people just think of ancient woodlands as bluebells, big large oaks and it's not quite there. I mean, they're all so kind of varied in their nature and geographically across the country, but it's got people thinking about them.  Adam: So that was something of a success, although I know more complicated than just ‘yes, we won that'.   Jack: Sure, yeah.   Adam: Any areas you feel you really lost that, you know, keep you up at night, you go, that was that was a failure and you know, we've lost that woodland?  Jack: Yeah. I mean, there've been, there've been some over the years. Back in 2012 a a large quarry was built on an area of woodland called Oaken Wood in Kent, probably taking about out about 30 to 35 hectares of ancient woodland which is massive, massive amounts, I mean, you're talking about in the region it's like 40 to 50 football fields and and and we're actually dealing with another threat to that woodland from an expansion of that same quarry. So yeah, you know that that one is one that gnaws gnaws at us, is that, you know, we don't want to see that happening anymore.  Adam: Are you getting more optimistic that you know the public are more on your side that this is at least something that plays in policymakers' decisions now?  Jack: I I actually think the public have always really been on our side. I think if you ask the the general public, they would probably say to you, we do not want to see ancient woodlands subject to any loss or deterioration, whatever the cause.  Adam: Yeah, I think you're right. But they also say, yeah, but we like cheaper housing and want better transport links so.  Jack: Yeah. Well, I mean the Lower Thames Crossing, which is going to be affecting this site that we're in now, Ashenbank Wood is sort of a prime example of that the the intention of that project is to relieve traffic congestion on the existing Dartford Crossing.  Adam: Which I think actually I can hear in my headphones this, although we are, I mean it looks beautiful, there's quite a lot of background traffic noise. So we can't be that far away actually from from transport, from big roads. So explain to me you say this this particular site, Ashenbank Woods which is a site of Special Scientific Interest, so it's not just any old woods, this is a really special place, is under threat. What is the threat here?   Jack: So the threat here is partially there will be some loss to the wider SSSI ancient woodland in the area when you're losing sort of kind of, Ashenbank Wood itself is not going to be subject to much loss, although there is a cycle route diversion going through the woods that might impact on some of its special features.  Adam: Oh one second just, we've we've just turned off the path, we're just, oops crawling under some trees. I don't quite know why we've come, we we seem to have chosen the most difficult route. Well, it is beautiful because we've come off the path right into a magic dell.   Jack: There we go.  Adam: Oh, look, there's obviously some, I think, probably some kids have built a sort of camp, tent out of fallen branches. OK, so sorry so I understand that this is under threat from development, the the development plan though is what? What are they trying to do here?  Jack: So so what they're doing is they're building a new crossing further to the east of Dartford Crossing, but that's going to involve connecting...  Adam: A river crossing, a tunnel?  Jack: Yes a river crossing.   Adam: But it's a tunnel.   Jack: Yeah, it's a tunnel.  Adam: Why would that? That's that's great, surely?  Jack: Well, the tunnel goes under the Thames. But in order to connect the A2/M2 to the to the sort of tunnel portal, they're going to be going through a lot of ancient woodlands as a result. So just down the way Clay Lane Wood is one that's going to be heavily impacted by by the proposals, you know several hectares of ancient woodland loss there, but in terms of our wood itself, you're you're gonna have impacts on some of the veteran trees from some of the works that are required in here. But you're also sort of increasing the traffic around the area on A2/M2. And as you can hear, there's already quite loud background noise from the traffic. If that becomes louder, it further reduces the suitability of this habitat for a lot of species.  Adam: Right. So what are your, what are you doing?  Jack: Well we're campaigning against it for one thing. So we've been campaigning against it since 2016, trying to bring those bring those sort of impacts down as far as possible. At this point in time, I would probably say that it's unfeasible, that it could go ahead without causing loss or damage to ancient woodland and veteran trees, and that's something that we have to oppose as an organisation. So we're working with other environmental NGOs, conservation orgs like RSPB, Buglife, Wildlife Trust, CPRE to to oppose this scheme.  Adam: So, and if people want to keep an eye on the sort of campaigns you're running, and the sort of live issues around the country, where can they get that information?  Jack: They can go along to woodlandtrust.org.uk/campaigns and they'll be able to find out about what we're doing in terms of campaigning for protection of ancient woods and veteran trees. We've got a really great campaign at the moment, all about protecting ancient and veteran trees and we're stood in in front of one of these at the moment, we call them Living Legends.   Adam: Right OK, what a lovely link, because I I was gonna say you've brought me to a stand. It looks like a sculpture this, so what, so let me just briefly describe this. I mean, it's a hollowed out tree. There's, it almost looks like there's 3 or 4 bits of different trees supporting each other, and you can go hide in the middle. I mean, there's, I'd, I couldn't spread my arms in the middle, but I mean almost, you know, there's probably, I don't know, 4 or 5 foot wide in the middle. It's most extraordinary. What is this? What's going on here?  Jack: So I would probably say this is an ancient ash tree. As trees sort of grow older, they they have to sort of kind of allow their heartwood to to rot away because that's what keeps them sort of stable and secure and in doing so that creates really important habitat for wildlife. And so this is what has happened to this ash tree effectively, its heartwood has sort of rotted away, it's still got this kind of all important surrounding ripewood to be able to support the rest of the tree.  Adam: That's extraordinary. So the the, the, the wood at the centre of the tree, the heartwood has gone?  Jack: Yes, yeah, yeah, cause it it's not it's not really useful for for trees at that sort of point. It's it's no longer the part of the wood that's carrying the sort of the water and nutrients up the tree. That's what the sort of outer ripewood does. So the heartwood decays away as they as they grow older.  Adam: And that's just ash trees is it?  Jack: No, that's that's pretty much all. Yeah.  Adam: How ignorant am I? OK, fine. OK. I didn't realise that that happens to all trees. And it looks like that would cause an instability problem, but this looks actually fairly fairly stable, it's fine.  Jack: It it's it's actually it's actually the other way they do it because it allows them to remain as stable as possible. And I I mean this one it doesn't, it doesn't look in the best sort of structural condition does it, but they need to do that for their sort of physiological condition because if they have if they're trying to support too much sort of heartwood then it affects the trees energy balances. And I mean that there's actual sort of scientific things here between the kinetic and the potential energy in a tree and why why they do this but all old trees do it and in turn it creates this amazing habitat, so you can see all these little holes in the in the sort of kind of inside wood and the decaying wood as well, where insects have sort of burrowed into it, where birds would be, woodpeckers, you know would be would be accessing that as well.   Adam: Yeah. Amazing   Jack: Amazing structures, aren't they?  Adam: And so I'm going to meet now, one of the people responsible for actually managing woods such as Ashenbank, and he's waiting for me a bit further into the woods.  Clive: OK, I'm Clive, Clive Steward, I'm one of the estate managers for the Woodland Trust working in the South East.  Adam: So what is important about this site? What makes this wood special?  Clive: What makes this site special is that it's ancient woodland or partly ancient woodland, but it's also managed as a wood pasture or has been managed as a wood pasture in the past, and because of that habitat it has lots and lots of old trees and old trees is very important in terms of what they support in terms of dead and decaying habitats.  Adam: Right, so well we're standing by this extraordinary ash tree, I mean, it's extraordinary that there's an ash tree at all, given ash dieback, but it's extraordinary for all sorts of other reasons. But is ash a big part of this woodland?  Clive: In terms of its name, Ashenbank, you you think it should be but but it's it is a component of the site but it's not, the majority species is not ash.   Adam: What is this site then?  Clive: So mostly sycamore and we're in the northern part of Ashenbank where we've got a lot of sycamore and we've got some really big old sweet chestnuts, but there are lovely old oak trees and hornbeam trees.  Adam: Right. And so when we talk about ancient woodland, it's always worth, I suppose, explaining a bit about what we mean because clearly will go, well, that's old. But old for trees can be a whole different sort of thing. So how, what, what, what do you mean when you're talking about ancient woodlands?  Clive: Well, when we say ancient woodland ancient woodland is defined as areas which have been permanently wooded since 1600AD. That's the sort of the the the date.  Adam: Oh right, I didn't realise it was that precise.  Clive: Well, it well, yes, it's roughly when big old estates used to produce maps, so they discovered paper and started drawing maps of what they owned but prior so before this this, the assumption is that if it's wooded then it would have been wooded ever since the Ice Age retreated but managed by mankind for for thousands of years.  Adam: So we're, we're assuming actually that ancient woodland is all it's probably been here since the Ice Age?  Clive: Yes. Yeah.  Adam: So that's why I mean that's it's worth I think pausing on that because it's why when we're talking about ‘oh, we'll have to destroy a bit of woodland for a tree, for a road' sorry, we're talking about taking away a bit of the landscape, which has been there since the Ice Age probably. So that's quite a big deal to have done that.  Clive: Yeah, yeah. It is. It is. Yeah. The the other part of Ashenbank, which is the bit we're in is a more recently wooded area, probably about 200 years old. I have a a map here which is not good for a podcast, but I can show you a map.  Adam: Go on go on, we can describe this. Hold on. I'll hold the microphone and you can describe what we're seeing. So go on, yes.  Clive: So we have a a map here of Ashenbank Wood dating from 1797, which shows the woodland it used to be. I have another map showing the wood as it is today. So here's a map from a couple of years ago, but we're we're actually up here, which in the 1797 map shows fields. And now, now, now it's woods. So so basically, what's happened this Ashenbank used to be owned by Cobham Hall, which is a big estate to the east of Halfpence Lane, so this used to be partly of Cobham Hall Estate and in 1790, as many of these big old estates houses used to do, they used used they they employed a landscape architect to make their their grounds nicer as it were. So it wasn't Capability Brown, but it was a chap called Humphrey Repton who worked on this site from 1790 to about 1880, when he died 1818 when he died. And he landscaped the estate and the view from the house over to here looking west to what is now Ashenbank Wood was obviously important to him. So they actually planted a lot of these big old chestnuts which we walked past, which date from 200 years ago.  Adam: Which is very nice and we often hear about cutting trees down and looking at old maps going ‘oh, we've lost all that wood', here's an example of the reverse to actually that's a good nature story.  Clive: Yeah, yeah, definitely it is. Yes. As you get older, as they get older, these trees there are microhabitats which develop rot pockets, branches fall off, they they rot, big holes develop and that that's these microhabitats which are home to what's called saproxylic species.   Adam: OK, that's a new word, saproxylic?  Clive: Saproxylic. So saproxylics are are basically insects and beetles and flies which only exist in dead and decaying wood. So if these big old trees weren't around, they've got nowhere to live.  Adam: Right, which is why it's useful to have deadwood on the ground. It's not so, it looks untidy, but actually that's often the richest place.  Clive: Indeed. Yeah, yes, but often, but often these insects and beetles are actually in the living tree, not in the in the horizontal, dead and dying stuff. And it's the living trees, which are are why this habitat is so important.  Adam: But I thought you said you said they're living in the living trees, but but saproxylic means they're living in the dead trees?  Clive: But within these big old trees, there are these rot holes and pockets and little microhabitats within the tree...  Adam: Yes, which are dead and that's where they live?   Clive: Where they live yeah that's right.  Adam: Right OK. Yeah, very interesting. OK, very interesting. Now, there's also, I knew I was told, but I'm completely confused by, an idea that I'm told that goes on here of strapping deadwood to live trees. Did I did I misunderstand that?  Clive: No, no, you you didn't misunderstand it. No.   Adam: OK and you're going to show me where this is ?  Clive: Yep. Shall we shall we go, we'll we'll walk there, have a look.  Adam: Alright. Brilliant. So you've taken me to this tree, a very substantial tree, but next to it, this is the a bit of, what, you better explain, because this is really odd and I don't really understand what I'm looking at.  Clive: Right. Well, going back to 1999 when High Speed One was being built, they took out three hectares of Ashenbank Wood along with lots of other woodland in the area. And fortunately, somebody had the idea of of suggesting that we could save some of those big trees they felled and reerecting them against living trees to help them degrade and and become part of the habitat.  Adam: So I mean to describe this, we've got a very big tree. What sort of tree is this?  Clive: So you've got a big, big oak tree.  Adam: That's a big oak, and next to it is 6, 12, I don't know, 30 foot, 40 foot high dead tree, bit of bark. But it's it's not like a small, it's a 40 foot bit of bark which you have propped onto the living tree. Why is it better to have done that than just to leave it on the ground?  Clive: Well, it's about these microhabitats. So I mean, it's not just propped up it's actually strapped to it, so it's actually quite secure.  Adam: It is secure, that's y your health and safety hat on.  Clive: We had to make sure it was strapped up, but vertical dead or decaying wood is equally as important as horizontal, dead and decaying wood.  Adam: OK. Is it different? What, does it do different things?  Clive: The wood doesn't but it attracts different insects and species so that that that's why so. But in most in most woodlands you'll see deadwood as being felled trees which are lying or windblown. You don't often see dead vertical trees.  Adam: I've never seen that.  Clive: Well, they're often well, they're often felled and taken out for firewood or something but they are important as as a sort of microhabitat for these saproxylics. That that's purely why.  Adam: So the saproxylics which are insects which live on deadwood prefer, some prefer the high rise living of the vertical tree rather than the low level bungalow type living. But what what sort of, do you do, don't worry if you don't know, but do you know which insects prefer living vertically?   Clive: I I don't know that.  Adam: You don't. Somebody will, somebody will.  Clive: Yeah somebody will. But if you look at that tree, you'll see that it's a there's a there's a U-shaped crook 2/3 way up and in that there's there's a there's a hole which has probably got water in it. So water gathers from rain and that's that that little microhabitat will be, something will live in it. And if that was horizontal, it wouldn't be there.  Adam: Right, yes, yes. Well that I think this must be, I mean, we've been doing this for a few years. I've never seen that. So that is amazing. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. So I know that the history of this site goes back quite a long way, not just the natural history, but the human history as well, and am I right in saying there's quite quite a lot of sort of Bronze Age heritage here?  Clive: Well, we've got a Scheduled Ancient Monument which has been dated to between 2000 and 1500 BC, which is a big burial mount and it is scheduled and it's, you know, English Heritage monitor it and we have to make sure it's free of trees and it's there to see.  Adam: Right. Wow. And it's interesting you talk about it's there to see because we came and parked in the Woodland Trust car park. Free parking, as is normal in Woodland Trust places, first time though a full car park. We are here midweek during the day. I was surprised to see it's full so talking about visitors, this is clearly a, I mean have I just come at a weird time, have they all come to see the Woodland Trust podcast being made, it's right, it's a popular site. That always feels like contention to me because I know you want to encourage people to come, on the other hand, coming in a sort of, destroys a bit of what we see. How much of a problem are the level of visitors?  Clive: Well, we basically have a path network through Ashenbank Wood which we maintain, we mow, we make sure it's open and safe. So most people walk on those those paths which steers people around the the wood, as it were, so and we we don't stop people from walking off the path but most people don't cause it's, you know, nettles or brambles or whatever. It's difficult to do.  Adam: Right, yes. And keeping dogs on the lead and everything. You've been with the Trust for a long time, haven't you, really. What sort of change have you seen in the the the debate around the natural world in your time here?  Clive: That's a big question.  Adam: Have you, I mean, sort of, it assumes you have seen a change, you might not have seen a change. I mean I the reason I ask it is because it feels to me it's gone up the political agenda, that it's not just, you know, people dismissively talking about crazy tree huggers and let them onto their own thing. It's become more mainstream. Do you think that that's it's become more optimistic, do you think it's become more pessimistic, do you think, you you know, it's become more informed, I suppose?  Clive: Well, I think there's a growing recognition that ancient woodland is a special habitat, but it hasn't quite gone far enough to get total protection. But I think there's a growing realisation that ancient woodland is special and we need to look after it. And I think the politicians probably do understand it, but maybe can't quite make that move to legislate against total protection.  Adam: Yeah. And I think that's part of the Living Legend campaign that the Woodland Trust is organising, isn't it?  Clive: Definitely is. Yeah. Yeah, very much so.  Adam: Well, there were two websites we talked about today. So if you want to get involved in a local campaign, search for ‘Woodland Trust campaigns' and you can find out more about the attempts to get better legal protection for ancient and veteran trees by searching for the Living Legends campaign and of course I hope you get a chance to visit Ashenbank Woods yourself. So until next time, happy wandering.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

AUTOMATED GRAPHIC FORECAST LINK   Saturday (Jul 27): Partly to mostly cloudy. High 81. Wind east-southeast around 6 mph, gusting to 15 mph.   Saturday night: Partly cloudy in the evening, becoming partly to mostly cloudy after midnight. Patchy light fog in the evening, then light to moderate fog after midnight. Low 64. Wind east-southeast around 5 mph.   Sunday (Jul 28): Mostly cloudy to cloudy in the morning, becoming cloudy in the afternoon. Patchy light fog. A 60% chance of rain. Scattered thundershowers possible. High 77. Wind south-southeast around 7 mph, gusting to 15 mph.   Sunday night: Cloudy in the evening, becoming mostly cloudy after midnight. Patchy light fog in the evening, then moderate fog after midnight. A 50% chance of rain. Scattered thundershowers possible. Low 69. Wind south around 5 mph.   Monday (Jul 29): Mostly cloudy in the morning, becoming mostly cloudy to cloudy in the afternoon. Moderate fog in the morning. A 60% chance of rain. Thunderstorms very likely, some possibly severe. Warm. High 85. Wind south-southwest around 6 mph, gusting to 16 mph.   Monday night: Cloudy in the evening, becoming mostly cloudy after midnight. Light to moderate fog in the evening, then moderate fog after midnight. A 70% chance of rain. Thunderstorms very likely, some possibly severe. Low 70. Wind southwest around 6 mph.   Tuesday (Jul 30): Partly to mostly cloudy in the morning, becoming partly cloudy in the afternoon. Light to moderate fog in the morning. A 50% chance of rain. Scattered thunderstorms likely, some possibly severe. Hot. High 87. Heat index up to 92. Wind southwest around 8 mph, gusting to 18 mph.   Tuesday night: Partly cloudy in the evening, becoming clear to partly cloudy after midnight. Patchy light fog after midnight. Low 68. Wind west around 6 mph.   Wednesday (Jul 31): Partly to mostly cloudy in the morning, becoming sunny in the afternoon. Light to moderate fog in the morning. A 39% chance of rain. Scattered thunderstorms likely. High 82. Wind west-southwest around 5 mph.   Wednesday night: Partly cloudy in the evening, becoming mostly cloudy to cloudy after midnight. Patchy light fog in the evening, then light to moderate fog after midnight. A 50% chance of rain. Scattered thundershowers possible. Low 69. Wind south-southwest around 3 mph.   Thursday (Aug 1): Cloudy in the morning, becoming mostly cloudy in the afternoon. Patchy light fog in the morning. A 30% chance of rain. Scattered thunderstorms likely. Warm. High 84. Wind west-southwest around 9 mph, gusting to 18 mph.   Thursday night: Partly cloudy in the evening, becoming mostly cloudy after midnight. Light to moderate fog. A 70% chance of rain. Scattered thundershowers possible. Low 69. Wind west around 7 mph, gusting to 17 mph.   Friday (Aug 2): Partly to mostly sunny in the morning, becoming partly cloudy in the afternoon. Patchy light fog in the morning. Breezy. High 80. Wind west around 10 mph, gusting to 19 mph, in the morning, becoming 13 mph, gusting to 20 mph, in the afternoon.   Friday night: Clear in the evening, becoming partly cloudy after midnight. Patchy light fog. Low 67. Wind northwest around 7 mph, gusting to 18 mph.   KASICA

Music Industry student, Rayne Grabowski, walks the listener through "The Lightning Thief: The Percy Jackson Musical".

Episode 620 Hour 1: Stewie kicks off the show by giving the host crap for playing a sound clip. A second tour of the Muscle Shoals Sound studio followed by a discussion of the Helen Keller House. How many times did people check out the latest episdoe? Sports - Jim Rome blocks dumb emails about Oscar Pistorius and other subjects. Ross rides the Lightning. Former contributer Thomas talks about CM Punk coming back to WWE. Tiger Woods is back at golf, "Tiger's Bad Legs" from "The Blind Man cometh" track 18. A clip of The Dan Patrick Show, where the guys play a game involving Simpsons impressions. hall & Oates are in a legal fight, the host calls the "Call And Oates Hotline", he then calls the Jackie Martling joke line, which leads to him talking about Jackie's origins in show business. Internet personality Collene Ballinger is now saying she is embarrassed by one of her videos, the host outlines his issues with her, he then plays "Collene Ballinger Song", a ZZ Top parody. The host closes the first hour discussing Elon Musk. Hour 2: History for December 01-03. Mark Twain as described by Weird History. Patrick Cane is going to the Detroit Redwings, an old commercial featuring him. Various news. The show closes with "Heart Attack" by Richard Pryor, as December 01 would've been his birthday. Break music - "Running On Empty" by Jackso n Browne Rejoiner music - "Soul Kitchen" by The Doors Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

AUTOMATED GRAPHIC FORECAST LINK   Weather Forecast for Jackson, WI Issued at 0700 Oct 10, 2023, by G. Kasica - Netwrx Consulting   Thursday (Oct 19): Cloudy. Light to moderate fog in the morning, then patchy light fog in the afternoon. A 50% chance of rain. High 59. Wind south-southwest around 5 mph, gusting to 15 mph, in the morning, becoming west-southwest in the afternoon.   Thursday night: Cloudy. Patchy light fog. A 50% chance of rain. Low 48. Wind west-northwest around 10 mph, gusting to 18 mph.   Friday (Oct 20): Partly cloudy in the morning, becoming sunny in the afternoon. Patchy light fog in the morning. High 59. Wind west-northwest around 10 mph, gusting to 20 mph.   Friday night: Partly cloudy in the evening, becoming mostly cloudy to cloudy after midnight. A 50% chance of rain. Low 46. Wind west around 4 mph in the evening, becoming south-southwest after midnight.   Saturday (Oct 21): Mostly cloudy in the morning, becoming cloudy in the afternoon. A 30% chance of rain. Breezy. High 52. Wind west around 10 mph, gusting to 20 mph, in the morning, becoming north-northwest around 13 mph, gusting to 21 mph, in the afternoon.   Saturday night: Mostly cloudy in the evening, becoming partly cloudy after midnight. Low 36. Wind north around 9 mph, gusting to 15 mph.   Sunday (Oct 22): Mostly sunny in the morning, becoming sunny in the afternoon. High 53. Wind north around 5 mph.   Sunday night: Clear in the evening, becoming mostly clear after midnight. Patchy light fog after midnight. Low 36. Wind south-southeast around 3 mph.   Monday (Oct 23): Partly cloudy in the morning, becoming mostly cloudy in the afternoon. Patchy light fog in the morning. High 55. Wind south-southeast around 7 mph, gusting to 16 mph.   Monday night: Partly to mostly cloudy in the evening, becoming mostly cloudy to cloudy after midnight. Low 45. Wind south around 7 mph.   Tuesday (Oct 24): Mostly cloudy to cloudy. A 30% chance of rain. Mild. High 64. Wind south-southwest around 5 mph.   Tuesday night: Partly to mostly cloudy in the evening, becoming cloudy after midnight. Patchy light fog in the evening. A 30% chance of rain. Relatively mild. Low 52. Wind south-southwest around 8 mph, gusting to 16 mph, in the evening, becoming 13 mph, gusting to 20 mph, after midnight.   Wednesday (Oct 25): Cloudy. A 60% chance of rain. High 58. Wind south-southwest around 14 mph, gusting to 20 mph, in the morning, becoming 8 mph, gusting to 17 mph, in the afternoon.   Wednesday night: Cloudy. A 60% chance of rain. Relatively mild. Low 52. Wind south around 4 mph in the evening, becoming 11 mph, gusting to 19 mph, after midnight.   KASICA

Sponsored by Austin.PatchMaster.com and WNOGB.com, Texas State sports reporter Keff Ciardello answers #WNOGB Twitter questions before an interview with the Bobcats' first 2024 commit, Reagan quarterback Brad Jackson. (Produced by Zachary Webb.)

Jack Roehrig, Technology Evangelist at Uptycs, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud for a conversation about security awareness, ChatGPT, and more. Jack describes some of the recent developments at Uptycs, which leads to fascinating insights about the paradox of scaling engineering teams large and small. Jack also shares how his prior experience working with AskJeeves.com has informed his perspective on ChatGPT and its potential threat to Google. Jack and Corey also discuss the evolution of Reddit, and the nuances of developing security awareness trainings that are approachable and effective.About JackJack has been passionate about (obsessed with) information security and privacy since he was a child. Attending 2600 meetings before reaching his teenage years, and DEF CON conferences shortly after, he quickly turned an obsession into a career. He began his first professional, full-time information-security role at the world's first internet privacy company; focusing on direct-to-consumer privacy. After working the startup scene in the 90's, Jack realized that true growth required a renaissance education. He enrolled in college, completing almost six years of coursework in a two-year period. Studying a variety of disciplines, before focusing on obtaining his two computer science degrees. University taught humility, and empathy. These were key to pursuing and achieving a career as a CSO lasting over ten years. Jack primarily focuses his efforts on mentoring his peers (as well as them mentoring him), advising young companies (especially in the information security and privacy space), and investing in businesses that he believes are both innovative, and ethical.Links Referenced: Uptycs: https://www.uptycs.com/ jack@jackroehrig.com: mailto:jack@jackroehrig.com jroehrig@uptycs.com: mailto:jroehrig@uptycs.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey:  LANs of the late 90's and early 2000's were a magical place to learn about computers, hang out with your friends, and do cool stuff like share files, run websites & game servers, and occasionally bring the whole thing down with some ill-conceived software or network configuration. That's not how things are done anymore, but what if we could have a 90's style LAN experience along with the best parts of the 21st century internet? (Most of which are very hard to find these days.) Tailscale thinks we can, and I'm inclined to agree. With Tailscale I can use trusted identity providers like Google, or Okta, or GitHub to authenticate users, and automatically generate & rotate keys to authenticate devices I've added to my network. I can also share access to those devices with friends and teammates, or tag devices to give my team broader access. And that's the magic of it, your data is protected by the simple yet powerful social dynamics of small groups that you trust. Try now - it's free forever for personal use. I've been using it for almost two years personally, and am moderately annoyed that they haven't attempted to charge me for what's become an absolutely-essential-to-my-workflow service.Corey: Kentik provides Cloud and NetOps teams with complete visibility into hybrid and multi-cloud networks. Ensure an amazing customer experience, reduce cloud and network costs, and optimize performance at scale — from internet to data center to container to cloud. Learn how you can get control of complex cloud networks at www.kentik.com, and see why companies like Zoom, Twitch, New Relic, Box, Ebay, Viasat, GoDaddy, booking.com, and many, many more choose Kentik as their network observability platform. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted episode is brought to us by our friends at Uptycs and they have once again subjected Jack Roehrig, Technology Evangelist, to the slings, arrows, and other various implements of misfortune that I like to hurl at people. Jack, thanks for coming back. Brave of you.Jack: I am brave [laugh]. Thanks for having me. Honestly, it was a blast last time and I'm looking forward to having fun this time, too.Corey: It's been a month or two, ish. Basically, the passing of time is one of those things that is challenging for me to wrap my head around in this era. What have you folks been up to? What's changed since the last time we've spoken? What's coming out of Uptycs? What's new? What's exciting? Or what's old with a new and exciting description?Jack: Well, we've GA'ed our agentless architecture scanning system. So, this is one of the reasons why I joined Uptycs that was so fascinating to me is they had kind of nailed XDR. And I love the acronyms: XDR and CNAPP is what we're going with right now. You know, and we have to use these acronyms so that people can understand what we do without me speaking for hours about it. But in short, our agentless system looks at the current resting risk state of production environment without the need to deploy agents, you know, as we talked about last time.And then the XDR piece, that's the thing that you get to justify the extra money on once you go to your CTO or whoever your boss is and show them all that risk that you've uncovered with our agentless piece. It's something I've done in the past with technologies that were similar, but Uptycs is continuously improving, our anomaly detection is getting better, our threat intel team is getting better. I looked at our engineering team the other day. I think we have over 300 engineers or over 250 at least. That's a lot.Corey: It's always wild for folks who work in small shops to imagine what that number of engineers could possibly be working on. Then you go and look at some of the bigger shops and you talk to them and you hear about all the different ways their stuff is built and how they all integrate together and you come away, on some level, surprised that they're able to work with that few engineers. So, it feels like there's a different perspective on scale. And no one has it right, but it is easy, I think, in the layperson's mindset to hear that a company like Twitter, for example, before it got destroyed, had 5000 engineers. And, “What are they all doing?” And, “Well, I can see where that question comes from and the answer is complicated and nuanced, which means that no one is going to want to hear it if it doesn't fit into a tweet itself.” But once you get into the space, you start realizing that everything is way more complicated than it looks.Jack: It is. Yeah. You know, it's interesting that you mention that about Twitter. I used to work for a company called Interactive Corporation. And Interactive Corporation is an internet conglomerate that owns a lot of those things that are at the corners of the internet that not many people know about. And also, like, the entire online dating space. So, I mean, it was a blast working there, but at one point in my career, I got heavily involved in M&A. And I was given the nickname Jack the RIFer. RIF standing for Reduction In Force.Corey: Oof.Jack: So, Jack the RIFer was—yeah [laugh] I know, right?Corey: It's like Buzzsaw Ted. Like, when you bring in the CEO with the nickname of Buzzsaw in there, it's like, “Hmm, I wonder who's going to hire a lot of extra people?” Not so much.Jack: [laugh]. Right? It's like, hey, they said they were sending, “Jack out to hang out with us,” you know, in whatever country we're based out of. And I go out there and I would drink them under the table. And I'd find out the dirty secrets, you know.We would be buying these companies because they would need optimized. But it would be amazing to me to see some of these companies that were massive and they produced what I thought was so little, and then to go on to analyze everybody's job and see that they were also intimately necessary.Corey: Yeah. And the question then becomes, if you were to redesign what that company did from scratch. Which again, is sort of an architectural canard; it was the easiest thing in the world to do is to design an architecture from scratch on a whiteboard with almost an arbitrary number of constraints. The problem is that most companies grow organically and in order to get to that idealized architecture, you've got to turn everything off and rebuild it from scratch. The problem is getting to something that's better without taking 18 months of downtime while you rebuild everything. Most companies cannot and will not sustain that.Jack: Right. And there's another way of looking at it, too, which is something that's been kind of a thought experiment for me for a long time. One of the companies that I worked with back at IC was Ask Jeeves. Remember Ask Jeeves?Corey: Oh, yes. That was sort of the closest thing we had at the time to natural language search.Jack: Right. That was the whole selling point. But I don't believe we actually did any natural language processing back then [laugh]. So, back in those days, it was just a search index. And if you wanted to redefine search right now and you wanted to find something that was like truly a great search engine, what would you do differently?If you look at the space right now with ChatGPT and with Google, and there's all this talk about, well, ChatGPT is the next Google killer. And then people, like, “Well, Google has Lambda.” What are they worried about ChatGPT for? And then you've got the folks at Google who are saying, “ChatGPT is going to destroy us,” and the folks in Google who are saying, “ChatGPT's got nothing on us.” So, if I had to go and do it all over from scratch for search, it wouldn't have anything to do with ChatGPT. I would go back and make a directed, cyclical graph and I would use node weight assignments based on outbound links. Which is exactly what Google was with the original PageRank algorithm, right [laugh]?Corey: I've heard this described as almost a vector database in various terms depending upon what it is that—how it is you're structuring this and what it looks like. It's beyond my ken personally, but I do see that there's an awful lot of hype around ChatGPT these days, and I am finding myself getting professionally—how do I put it—annoyed by most of it. I think that's probably the best way to frame it.Jack: Isn't it annoying?Corey: It is because it's—people ask, “Oh, are you worried that it's going to take over what you do?” And my answer is, “No. I'm worried it's going to make my job harder more than anything else.” Because back when I was a terrible student, great, write an essay on this thing, or write a paper on this. It needs to be five pages long.And I would write what I thought was a decent coverage of it and it turned out to be a page-and-a-half. And oh, great. What I need now is a whole bunch of filler fluff that winds up taking up space and word count but doesn't actually get us to anywhere—Jack: [laugh].Corey: —that is meaningful or useful. And it feels like that is what GPT excels at. If I worked in corporate PR for a lot of these companies, I would worry because it takes an announcement that fits in a tweet—again, another reference to that ailing social network—and then it turns it into an arbitrary length number of pages. And it's frustrating for me just because that's a lot more nonsense I have to sift through in order to get the actual, viable answer to whatever it is I'm going for here.Jack: Well, look at that viable answer. That's a really interesting point you're making. That fluff, right, when you're writing that essay. Yeah, that one-and-a-half pages out. That's gold. That one-and-a-half pages, that's the shit. That's the stuff you want, right? That's the good shit [laugh]. Excuse my French. But ChatGPT is what's going to give you that filler, right? The GPT-3 dataset, I believe, was [laugh] I think it was—there's a lot of Reddit question-and-answers that were used to train it. And it was trained, I believe—the data that it was trained with ceased to be recent in 2021, right? It's already over a year old. So, if your teacher asked you to write a very contemporary essay, ChatGPT might not be able to help you out much. But I don't think that that kind of gets the whole thing because you just said filler, right? You can get it to write that extra three-and-a-half pages from that five pages you're required to write. Well, hey, teachers shouldn't be demanding that you write five pages anyways. I once heard, a friend of mine arguing about one presidential candidate saying, “This presidential candidate speaks at a third-grade level.” And the other person said, “Well, your presidential candidate speaks at a fourth-grade level.” And I said, “I wish I could convey presidential ideas at a level that a third or a fourth grader could understand” You know? Right?Corey: On some level, it's actually not a terrible thing because if you can only convey a concept at an extremely advanced reading level, then how well do you understand—it felt for a long time like that was the problem with AI itself and machine-learning and the rest. The only value I saw was when certain large companies would trot out someone who was themselves deep into the space and their first language was obviously math and they spoke with a heavy math accent through everything that they had to say. And at the end of it, I didn't feel like I understood what they were talking about any better than I had at the start. And in time, it took things like ChatGPT to say, “Oh, this is awesome.” People made fun of the Hot Dog/Not A Hot Dog App, but that made it understandable and accessible to people. And I really think that step is not given nearly enough credit.Jack: Yeah. That's a good point. And it's funny, you mentioned that because I started off talking about search and redefining search, and I think I use the word digraph for—you know, directed gra—that's like a stupid math concept; nobody understands what that is. I learned that in discrete mathematics a million years ago in college, right? I mean, I'm one of the few people that remembers it because I worked in search for so long.Corey: Is that the same thing is a directed acyclic graph, or am I thinking of something else?Jack: Ah you're—that's, you know, close. A directed acyclic graph has no cycles. So, that means you'll never go around in a loop. But of course, if you're just mapping links from one website to another website, A can link from B, which can then link back to A, so that creates a cycle, right? So, an acyclic graph is something that doesn't have that cycle capability in it.Corey: Got it. Yeah. Obviously, my higher math is somewhat limited. It turns out that cloud economics doesn't generally tend to go too far past basic arithmetic. But don't tell them. That's the secret of cloud economics.Jack: I think that's most everything, I mean, even in search nowadays. People aren't familiar with graph theory. I'll tell you what people are familiar with. They're familiar with Google. And they're familiar with going to Google and Googling for something, and when you Google for something, you typically want results that are recent.And if you're going to write an essay, you typically don't care because only the best teachers out there who might not be tricked by ChatGPT—honestly, they probably would be, but the best teachers are the ones that are going to be writing the syllabi that require the recency. Almost nobody's going to be writing syllabi that requires essay recency. They're going to reuse the same syllabus they've been using for ten years.Corey: And even that is an interesting question there because if we talk about the results people want from search, you're right, I have to imagine the majority of cases absolutely care about recency. But I can think of a tremendous number of counterexamples where I have been looking for things explicitly and I do not want recent results, sometimes explicitly. Other times because no, I'm looking for something that was talked about heavily in the 1960s and not a lot since. I don't want to basically turn up a bunch of SEO garbage that trawled it from who knows where. I want to turn up some of the stuff that was digitized and then put forward. And that can be a deceptively challenging problem in its own right.Jack: Well, if you're looking for stuff has been digitized, you could use archive.org or one of the web archive projects. But if you look into the web archive community, you will notice that they're very secretive about their data set. I think one of the best archive internet search indices that I know of is in Portugal. It's a Portuguese project.I can't recall the name of it. But yeah, there's a Portuguese project that is probably like the axiomatic standard or like the ultimate prototype of how internet archiving should be done. Search nowadays, though, when you say things like, “I want explicitly to get this result,” search does not want to show you explicitly what you want. Search wants to show you whatever is going to generate them the most advertising revenue. And I remember back in the early search engine marketing days, back in the algorithmic trading days of search engine marketing keywords, you could spend $4 on an ad for flowers and if you typed the word flowers into Google, you just—I mean, it was just ad city.You typed the word rehabilitation clinic into Google, advertisements everywhere, right? And then you could type certain other things into Google and you would receive a curated list. These things are obvious things that are identified as flaws in the secrecy of the PageRank algorithm, but I always thought it was interesting because ChatGPT takes care of a lot of the stuff that you don't want to be recent, right? It provides this whole other end to this idea that we've been trained not to use search for, right?So, I was reviewing a contract the other day. I had this virtual assistant and English is not her first language. And she and I red-lined this contract for four hours. It was brutal because I kept on having to Google—for lack of a better word—I had to Google all these different terms to try and make sense of it. Two days later, I'm playing around with ChatGPT and I start typing some very abstract commands to it and I swear to you, it generated that same contract I was red-lining. Verbatim. I was able to get into generating multiple [laugh] clauses in the contract. And by changing the wording in ChatGPT to save, “Create it, you know, more plaintiff-friendly,” [laugh] that contract all of a sudden, was red-lined in a way that I wanted it to be [laugh].Corey: This is a fascinating example of this because I'm married to a corporate attorney who does this for a living, and talking to her and other folks in her orbit, the problem they have with it is that it works to a point, on a limited basis, but it then veers very quickly into terms that are nonsensical, terms that would absolutely not pass muster, but sound like something a lawyer would write. And realistically, it feels like what we've built is basically the distillation of a loud, overconfident white guy in tech because—Jack: Yes.Corey: —they don't know exactly what they're talking about, but by God is it confident when it says it.Jack: [laugh]. Yes. You hit the nail on that. Ah, thank you. Thank you.Corey: And there's as an easy way to prove this is pick any topic in the world in which you are either an expert or damn close to it or know more than the average bear about and ask ChatGPT to explain that to you. And then notice all the things that glosses over or what it gets subtly wrong or is outright wrong about, but it doesn't ever call that out. It just says it with the same confident air of a failing interview candidate who gets nine out of ten questions absolutely right, but the one they don't know they bluff on, and at that point, you realize you can't trust them because you never know if they're bluffing or they genuinely know the answer.Jack: Wow, that is a great analogy. I love that. You know, I mentioned earlier that the—I believe the part of the big portion of the GPT-3 training data was based on Reddit questions and answers. And now you can't categorize Reddit into a single community, of course; that would be just as bad as the way Reddit categories [laugh] our community, but Reddit did have a problem a wh—I remember, there was the Ellen Pao debacle for Reddit. And I don't know if it was so much of a debacle if it was more of a scapegoat situation, but—Corey: I'm very much left with a sense that it's the scapegoat. But still, continue.Jack: Yeah, we're adults. We know what happened here, right? Ellen Pao is somebody who is going through some very difficult times in her career. She's hired to be a martyr. They had a community called fatpeoplehate, right?I mean, like, Reddit had become a bizarre place. I used Reddit when I was younger and it didn't have subreddits. It was mostly about programming. It was more like Hacker News. And then I remember all these people went to Hacker News, and a bunch of them stayed at Reddit and there was this weird limbo of, like, the super pretentious people over at Hacker News.And then Reddit started to just get weirder and weirder. And then you just described ChatGPT in a way that just struck me as so Reddit, you know? It's like some guy mansplaining some answer. It starts off good and then it's overconfidently continues to state nonsensical things.Corey: Oh yeah, I was a moderator of the legal advice and personal finance subreddits for years, and—Jack: No way. Were you really?Corey: Oh, absolutely. Those corners were relatively reasonable. And like, “Well, wait a minute, you're not a lawyer. You're correct and I'm also not a financial advisor.” However, in both of those scenarios, what people were really asking for was, “How do I be a functional adult in society?”In high school curricula in the United States, we insist that people go through four years of English literature class, but we don't ever sit down and tell them how to file their taxes or how to navigate large transactions that are going to be the sort of thing that you encounter in adulthood: buying a car, signing a lease. And it's more or less yeah, at some point, you wind up seeing someone with a circumstance that yeah, talk to a lawyer. Don't take advice on the internet for this. But other times, it's no, “You cannot sue a dog. You have to learn to interact with people as a grown-up. Here's how to approach that.” And that manifests as legal questions or finance questions, but it all comes down to I have been left on prepared for the world I live in by the school system. How do I wind up addressing these things? And that is what I really enjoyed.Jack: That's just prolifically, prolifically sound. I'm almost speechless. You're a hundred percent correct. I remember those two subreddits. It always amazes me when I talk to my friends about finances.I'm not a financial person. I mean, I'm an investor, right, I'm a private equity investor. And I was on a call with a young CEO that I've been advising for while. He runs a security awareness training company, and he's like, you know, you've made 39% off of your investment three months. And I said, “I haven't made anything off of my investment.”I bought a safe and, you know—it's like, this is conversion equity. And I'm sitting here thinking, like, I don't know any of the stuff. And I'm like, I talk to my buddies in the—you know, that are financial planners and I ask them about finances, and it's—that's also interesting to me because financial planning is really just about when are you going to buy a car? When are you going to buy a house? When are you going to retire? And what are the things, the securities, the companies, what should you do with your money rather than store it under your mattress?And I didn't really think about money being stored under a mattress until the first time I went to Eastern Europe where I am now. I'm in Hungary right now. And first time I went to Eastern Europe, I think I was in Belgrade in Serbia. And my uncle at the time, he was talking about how he kept all of his money in cash in a bank account. In Serbian Dinar.And Serbian Dinar had already gone through hyperinflation, like, ten years prior. Or no, it went through hyperinflation in 1996. So, it was not—it hadn't been that long [laugh]. And he was asking me for financial advice. And here I am, I'm like, you know, in my early-20s.And I'm like, I don't know what you should do with your money, but don't put it under your mattress. And that's the kind of data that Reddit—that ChatGPT seems to have been trained on, this GPT-3 data, it seems like a lot of [laugh] Redditors, specifically Redditors sub-2001. I haven't used Reddit very much in the last half a decade or so.Corey: Yeah, I mean, I still use it in a variety of different ways, but I got out of both of those cases, primarily due to both time constraints, as well as my circumstances changed to a point where the things I spent my time thinking about in a personal finance sense, no longer applied to an awful lot of folk because the common wisdom is aimed at folks who are generally on a something that resembles a recurring salary where they can calculate in a certain percentage raises, in most cases, for the rest of their life, plan for other things. But when I started the company, a lot of the financial best practices changed significantly. And what makes sense for me to do becomes actively harmful for folks who are not in similar situations. And I just became further and further attenuated from the way that you generally want to give common case advice. So, it wasn't particularly useful at that point anymore.Jack: Very. Yeah, that's very well put. I went through a similar thing. I watched Reddit quite a bit through the Ellen Pao thing because I thought it was a very interesting lesson in business and in social engineering in general, right? And we saw this huge community, this huge community of people, and some of these people were ridiculously toxic.And you saw a lot of groupthink, you saw a lot of manipulation. There was a lot of heavy-handed moderation, there was a lot of too-late moderation. And then Ellen Pao comes in and I'm, like, who the heck is Ellen Pao? Oh, Ellen Pao is this person who has some corporate scandal going on. Oh, Ellen Pao is a scapegoat.And here we are, watching a community being socially engineered, right, into hating the CEO who's just going to be let go or step down anyways. And now they ha—their conversations have been used to train intelligence, which is being used to socially engineer people [laugh] into [crosstalk 00:22:13].Corey: I mean you just listed something else that's been top-of-mind for me lately, where it is time once again here at The Duckbill Group for us to go through our annual security awareness training. And our previous vendor has not been terrific, so I start looking to see what else is available in that space. And I see that the world basically divides into two factions when it comes to this. The first is something that is designed to check the compliance boxes at big companies. And some of the advice that those things give is actively harmful as in, when I've used things like that in the past, I would have an addenda that I would send out to the team. “Yeah, ignore this part and this part and this part because it does not work for us.”And there are other things that start trying to surface it all the time as it becomes a constant awareness thing, which makes sense, but it also doesn't necessarily check any contractual boxes. So it's, isn't there something in between that makes sense? I found one company that offered a Slackbot that did this, which sounded interesting. The problem is it was the most condescendingly rude and infuriatingly slow experience that I've had. It demanded itself a whole bunch of permissions to the Slack workspace just to try it out, so I had to spin up a false Slack workspace for testing just to see what happens, and it was, start to finish, the sort of thing that I would not inflict upon my team. So, the hell with it and I moved over to other stuff now. And I'm still looking, but it's the sort of thing where I almost feel like, this is something ChatGPT could have built and cool, give me something that sounds confident, but it's often wrong. Go.Jack: [laugh]. Yeah, Uptycs actually is—we have something called a Otto M8—spelled O-T-T-O space M and then the number eight—and I personally think that's the cutest name ever for Slackbot. I don't have a picture of him to show you, but I would personally give him a bit of a makeover. He's a little nerdy for my likes. But he's got—it's one of those Slackbots.And I'm a huge compliance geek. I was a CISO for over a decade and I know exactly what you mean with that security awareness training and ticking those boxes because I was the guy who wrote the boxes that needed to be ticked because I wrote those control frameworks. And I'm not a CISO anymore because I've already subjected myself to an absolute living hell for long enough, at least for now [laugh]. So, I quit the CISO world.Corey: Oh yeah.Jack: Yeah.Corey: And so, much of it also assumes certain things like I've had people reach out to me trying to shill whatever it is they've built in this space. And okay, great. The problem is that they've built something that is aligned at engineers and developers. Go, here you go. And that's awesome, but we are really an engineering-first company.Yes, most people here have an engineering background and we build some internal tooling, but we don't need an entire curriculum on how to secure the tools that we're building as web interfaces and public-facing SaaS because that's not what we do. Not to mention, what am I supposed to do with the accountants in the sales folks and the marketing staff that wind up working on a lot of these things that need to also go through training? Do I want to sit here and teach them about SQL injection attacks? No, Jack. I do not want to teach them that.Jack: No you don't.Corey: I want them to not plug random USB things into the work laptop and to use a password manager. I'm not here trying to turn them into security engineers.Jack: I used to give a presentation and I onboarded every single employee personally for security. And in the presentation, I would talk about password security. And I would have all these complex passwords up. But, like, “You know what? Let me just show you what a hacker does.”And I'd go and load up dhash and I'd type in my old email address. And oh, there's my password, right? And then I would—I copied the cryptographic hash from dhash and I'd paste that into Google. And I'd be like, “And that's how you crack passwords.” Is you Google the cryptographic hash, the insecure cryptographic hash and hope somebody else has already cracked it.But yeah, it's interesting. The security awareness training is absolutely something that's supposed to be guided for the very fundamental everyman employee. It should not be something entirely technical. I worked at a company where—and I love this, by the way; this is one of the best things I've ever read on Slack—and it was not a message that I was privy to. I had to have the IT team pull the Slack logs so that I could read these direct communications. But it was from one—I think it was the controller to the Vice President of accounting, and the VP of accounting says how could I have done this after all of those phishing emails that Jack sent [laugh]?Corey: Oh God, the phishing emails drives me up a wall, too. It's you're basically training your staff not to trust you and waste their time and playing gotcha. It really creates an adversarial culture. I refuse to do that stuff, too.Jack: My phishing emails are fun, all right? I did one where I pretended that I installed a camera in the break room refrigerator, and I said, we've had a problem with food theft out of the Oakland refrigerator and so I've we've installed this webcam. Log into the sketchy website with your username and password. And I got, like, a 14% phish rate. I've used this campaign at multinational companies.I used to travel around the world and I'd grab a mic at the offices that wanted me to speak there and I'd put the mic real close to my head and I say, “Why did you guys click on the link to the Oakland refrigerator?” [laugh]. I said, “You're in Stockholm for God's sake.” Like, it works. Phishing campaigns work.They just don't work if they're dumb, honestly. There's a lot of things that do work in the security awareness space. One of the biggest problems with security awareness is that people seem to think that there's some minimum amount of time an employee should have to spend on security awareness training, which is just—Corey: Right. Like, for example, here in California, we're required to spend two hours on harassment training every so often—I think it's every two years—and—Jack: Every two years. Yes.Corey: —at least for managerial staff. And it's great, but that leads to things such as, “Oh, we're not going to give you a transcript if you can read the video more effectively. You have to listen to it and make sure it takes enough time.” And it's maddening to me just because that is how the law is written. And yes, it's important to obey the law, don't get me wrong, but at the same time, it just feels like it's an intentional time suck.Jack: It is. It is an intentional time suck. I think what happens is a lot of people find ways to game the system. Look, when I did security awareness training, my controls, the way I worded them, didn't require people to take any training whatsoever. The phishing emails themselves satisfied it completely.I worded that into my control framework. I still held the trainings, they still made people take them seriously. And then if we have a—you know, if somebody got phished horrifically, and let's say wired $2 million to Hong Kong—you know who I'm talking about, all right, person who might is probably not listening to this, thankfully—but [laugh] she did. And I know she didn't complete my awareness training. I know she never took any of it.She also wired $2 million to Hong Kong. Well, we never got that money back. But we sure did spend a lot of executive time trying to. I spent a lot of time on the phone, getting passed around from department to department at the FBI. Obviously, the FBI couldn't help us.It was wired from Mexico to Hong Kong. Like the FBI doesn't have anything to do with it. You know, bless them for taking their time to humor me because I needed to humor my CEO. But, you know, I use those awareness training things as a way to enforce the Code of Conduct. The Code of Conduct requiring disciplinary action for people who didn't follow the security awareness training.If you had taken the 15 minutes of awareness training that I had asked people to do—I mean, I told them to do it; it was the Code of Conduct; they had to—then there would be no disciplinary action for accidentally wiring that money. But people are pretty darn diligent on not doing things like that. It's just a select few that seems to be the ones that get repeatedly—Corey: And then you have the group conversations. One person screws something up and then you wind up with the emails to everyone. And then you have the people who are basically doing the right thing thinking they're being singled out. And—ugh, management is hard, people is hard, but it feels like a lot of these things could be a lot less hard.Jack: You know, I don't think management is hard. I think management is about empathy. And management is really about just positive reinforce—you know what management is? This is going to sound real pretentious. Management's kind of like raising a kid, you know? You want to have a really well-adjusted kid? Every time that kid says, “Hey, Dad,” answer. [crosstalk 00:30:28]—Corey: Yeah, that's a good—that's a good approach.Jack: I mean, just be there. Be clear, consistent, let them know what to expect. People loved my security program at the places that I've implemented it because it was very clear, it was concise, it was easy to understand, and I was very approachable. If anybody had a security concern and they came to me about it, they would [laugh] not get any shame. They certainly wouldn't get ignored.I don't care if they were reporting the same email I had had reported to me 50 times that day. I would personally thank them. And, you know what I learned? I learned that from raising a kid, you know? It was interesting because it was like, the kid I was raising, when he would ask me a question, I would give him the same answer every time in the same tone. He'd be like, “Hey, Jack, can I have a piece of candy?” Like, “No, your mom says you can't have any candy today.” They'd be like, “Oh, okay.” “Can I have a piece of candy?” And I would be like, “No, your mom says you can't have any candy today.” “Can I have a piece of candy, Jack?” I said, “No. Your mom says he can't have any candy.” And I'd just be like a broken record.And he immediately wouldn't ask me for a piece of candy six different times. And I realized the reason why he was asking me for a piece of candy six different times is because he would get a different response the sixth time or the third time or the second time. It was the inconsistency. Providing consistency and predictability in the workforce is key to management and it's key to keeping things safe and secure.Corey: I think there's a lot of truth to that. I really want to thank you for taking so much time out of your day to talk to me about think topics ranging from GPT and ethics to parenting. If people want to learn more, where's the best place to find you?Jack: I'm jack@jackroehrig.com, and I'm also jroehrig@uptycs.com. My last name is spelled—heh, no, I'm kidding. It's a J-A-C-K-R-O-E-H-R-I-G dot com. So yeah, hit me up. You will get a response from me.Corey: Excellent. And I will of course include links to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.Jack: Likewise.Corey: This promoted guest episode has been brought to us by our friends at Uptycs, featuring Jack Roehrig, Technology Evangelist at same. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment ghostwritten for you by ChatGPT so it has absolutely no content worth reading.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

About JackJack is Uptycs' outspoken technology evangelist. Jack is a lifelong information security executive with over 25 years of professional experience. He started his career managing security and operations at the world's first Internet data privacy company. He has since led unified Security and DevOps organizations as Global CSO for large conglomerates. This role involved individually servicing dozens of industry-diverse, mid-market portfolio companies.Jack's breadth of experience has given him a unique insight into leadership and mentorship. Most importantly, it fostered professional creativity, which he believes is direly needed in the security industry. Jack focuses his extra time mentoring, advising, and investing. He is an active leader in the ISLF, a partner in the SVCI, and an outspoken privacy activist. Links Referenced: UptycsSecretMenu.com: https://www.uptycssecretmenu.com Jack's email: jroehrig@uptycs.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: If you asked me to rank which cloud provider has the best developer experience, I'd be hard-pressed to choose a platform that isn't Google Cloud. Their developer experience is unparalleled and, in the early stages of building something great, that translates directly into velocity. Try it yourself with the Google for Startups Cloud Program over at cloud.google.com/startup. It'll give you up to $100k a year for each of the first two years in Google Cloud credits for companies that range from bootstrapped all the way on up to Series A. Go build something, and then tell me about it. My thanks to Google Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast.Corey: This episode is brought to us by our friends at Pinecone. They believe that all anyone really wants is to be understood, and that includes your users. AI models combined with the Pinecone vector database let your applications understand and act on what your users want… without making them spell it out. Make your search application find results by meaning instead of just keywords, your personalization system make picks based on relevance instead of just tags, and your security applications match threats by resemblance instead of just regular expressions. Pinecone provides the cloud infrastructure that makes this easy, fast, and scalable. Thanks to my friends at Pinecone for sponsoring this episode. Visit Pinecone.io to understand more.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted guest episode is brought to us by our friends at Uptycs. And they have sent me their Technology Evangelist, Jack Charles Roehrig. Jack, thanks for joining me.Jack: Absolutely. Happy to spread the good news.Corey: So, I have to start. When you call yourself a technology evangelist, I feel—just based upon my own position in this ecosystem—the need to ask, I guess, the obvious question of, do you actually work there, or have you done what I do with AWS and basically inflicted yourself upon a company. Like, well, “I speak for you now.” The running gag that becomes more true every year is that I'm AWS's chief marketing officer.Jack: So, that is a great question. I take it seriously. When I say technology evangelist, you're speaking to Jack Roehrig. I'm a weird guy. So, I quit my job as CISO. I left a CISO career. For, like, ten years, I was a CISO. Before that, 17 years doing stuff. Started my own thing, secondaries, investments, whatever.Elias Terman, he hits me up and he says, “Hey, do you want this job?” It was an executive job, and I said, “I'm not working for anybody.” And he says, “What about a technology evangelist?” And I was like, “That's weird.” “Check out the software.”So, I'm going to check out the software. I went online, I looked at it. I had been very passionate about the space, and I was like, “How does this company exist in doing this?” So, I called him right back up, and I said, “I think I am.” He said, “You think you are?” I said, “Yeah, I think I'm your evangelist. Like, I think I have to do this.” I mean, it really was like that.Corey: Yeah. It's like, “Well, we have an interview process and the rest.” You're like, “Yeah, I have a goldfish. Now that we're done talking about stuff that doesn't matter, I'll start Monday.” Yeah, I like the approach.Jack: Yeah. It was more like I had found my calling. It was bizarre. I negotiated a contract with him that said, “Look, I can't just work for Uptycs and be your evangelist. That doesn't make any sense.” So, I advise companies, I'm part of the SVCI, I do secondaries, investment, I mentor, I'm a steering committee member of the ISLF. We mentor security leaders.And I said, “I'm going to continue doing all of these things because you don't want an evangelist who's just an Uptycs evangelist.” I have to know the space. I have to have my ear to the ground. And I said, “And here's the other thing, Elias. I will only be your evangelist while I'm your evangelist. I can't be your evangelist when I lose passion. I don't think I'm going to.”Corey: The way I see it, authenticity matters in this space. You can sell out exactly once, so make it count because you're never going to be trusted again to do it a second time. It keeps people honest, at least the ones you actually want to be doing work with. So, you've been in the space a long time, 20 years give or take, and you've seen an awful lot. So, I'm curious, given that I tend to see about, you know, six or seven different companies in the RSA Sponsor Hall every year selling things because you know, sure hundreds of booths, bunch of different marketing logos and products, but it all distills down to the same five or six things.What did you see about Uptycs that made you say, “This is different?” Because to be very direct, looking at the website, it's, “Oh, what do you sell?” “Acronyms. A whole bunch of acronyms that, because I don't eat, sleep, and breathe security for a living, I don't know what most of them mean, but I'm sure they're very impressive and important.” What does it actually do, for those of us who are practitioners, but not swimming in the security vendor stream?Jack: So, I've been obsessed with this space and I've seen the acronyms change over and over and over again. I'm always the first one to say, “What does that mean?” As the senior guy in the room a lot of time. So, acronyms. What does Uptycs do? What drew me into them? They did HIDS, Host Intrusion Detection System. I don't know if you remember that. Turned into—Corey: Oh, yeah. OSSEC was the one I always wound up using, the open-source version. OSSEC [kids 00:04:10]. It's like, oh, instead of paying a vendor, you can contribute it yourself because your time is free, right? Free as in puppy, or these days free as in tier when it comes to cloud.Jack: Oh, I like that. So, yeah, I became obsessed with this HIDS stuff. I think it was evident I was doing it, that it was threat [unintelligible 00:04:27]. And these companies, great companies. I started this new job in an education technology company and I needed a lot of work, so I started to play around with more sophisticated HIDS systems, and I fell in love with it. I absolutely fell in love with it.But there are all these limitations. I couldn't find this company that would build it right. And Uptycs has this reputation as being not very sexy, you know? People telling me, “Uptycs? You're going to Uptycs?” Yeah—I'm like, “Yeah. They're doing really cool stuff.”So, Uptycs has, like, this brand name and I had referred Uptycs before without even knowing what it was. So, here I am, like, one of the biggest XDR, I hope to say, activists in the industry, and I didn't know about Uptycs. I felt humiliated. When I heard about what they were doing, I felt like I wasted my career.Corey: Well, that's a strong statement. Let's begin with XDR. To my understanding, that some form of audio cable standard that I use to plug into my microphone. Some would say it, “X-L-R.” I would say sounds like the same thing. What is XDR?Jack: What is it, right? So, [audio break 00:05:27] implement it, but you install an agent, typically on a system, and that agent collects data on the system: what processes are running, right? Well, maybe it's system calls, maybe it's [unintelligible 00:05:37] as regular system calls. Some of them use the extended Berkeley Packet Filter daemon to get stuff, but one of the problems is that we are obtaining low-level data on an operating system, it's got to be highly specific. So, you collect all this data, who's logging in, which passwords are changing, all the stuff that a hacker would do as you're typing on the computer. You're maybe monitoring vulnerabilities, it's a ton of data that you're monitoring.Well, one of the problems that these companies face is they try to monitor too much. Then some came around and they tried to monitor too little, so they weren't as real-time.Corey: Sounds like a little pig story here.Jack: Yeah [laugh], exactly. Another company came along with a fantastic team, but you know, I think they came in a little late in the game, and it looks like they're folding now. They were wonderful company, but the one of the biggest problems I saw was the agent, the compatibility. You know, it was difficult to deploy. I ran DevOps and security and my DevOps team uninstalled the agent because they thought there was a problem with it, we proved there wasn't and four months later, they hadn't completely reinstall it.So, a CISO who manages the DevOps org couldn't get his own DevOps guy to install this agent. For good reason, right? So, this is kind of where I'm going with all of this XDR stuff. What is XDR? It's an agent on a machine that produces a ton of data.I—it's like omniscience. Yes, I started to turn it in, I would ping developers, I was like, “Why did you just run sudo on that machine?” Right. I mean, I knew everything was going on in the space, I had a good intro to all the assets, they technically run on the on-premise data center and the quote-unquote, “Cloud.” I like to just say the production estate. But it's omniscience. It's insights, you can create rules, it's one of the most powerful security tools that exists.Corey: I think there's a definite gap as far as—let's narrow this down to cloud for just a second before we expand this into the joy that has data centers—where you can instrument a whole bunch of different security services in any cloud provider—I'm going to pick on AWS because they're the 800-pound gorilla in the room, and frankly, they could use taking down a peg or two by and large—and you wind up configuring all the different security services that in some cases seem totally unaware of each other, but that's the AWS product portfolio for you. And you do the math out and realize that it theoretically would cost you—to enable all these things—about three times as much as the actual data breach you're ideally trying to prevent against. So, on some level, it feels like, “Heads, I win; tails, you lose,” style scenario.And the answer that people have started reaching out to third-party vendors to wind up tying all of this together into some form of cohesive narrative that a human being has a hope in hell of understanding. But everything I've tried to this point still feels like it is relatively siloed, focused on the whole fear, uncertainty, and doubt that is so inherent to so much of the security world's marketing. And it's almost like cost control where you can spend almost limitless amount of time, energy, money, et cetera, trying to fix these things, but it doesn't advance your company to the next milestone. It's like buying fire insurance on your building. You can spend all the money on fire insurance. Great, it doesn't get you to the next milestone that propels your company forward. It's all reactive instead of proactive. So, it feels like it is never the exciting, number-one priority for companies until right after it should have been higher in the list than it was.Jack: So, when I worked at Turnitin, we had saturated the market. And we worked in education, technology space globally. Compliance everywhere. So, I just worked on the Australian Data Infrastructure Act of 2020. I'm very familiar with the 27 data privacy regulations that are [laugh] in scope for schools. I'm a FERPA expert, right? I know that there's only one P in HIPAA [laugh].So, all of these compliance regulations drove schools and universities, consortiums, government agencies to say, “You need to be secure.” So, security at Turnitin was the number one—number one—key performance indicator of the company for one-and-a-half years. And these cloud security initiatives didn't just make things more secure. They also allowed me to implement a reasonable control framework to get various compliance certifications. So, I'm directly driving sales by deploying these security tools.And the reason why that worked out so great is, by getting the certifications and by building a sensible control framework layer, I was taking these compliance requirements and translating them into real mitigations of business risk. So, the customers are driving security as they should. I'm implementing sane security controls by acting as the chief security officer, company becomes more secure, I save money by using the correct toolset, and we increased our business by, like, 40% in a year. This is a multibillion-dollar company.Corey: That is definitely a story that resonates, especially with organizations that are—or they should be—compliance-forward and having to care about the nature of what it is that they're doing. But I have a somewhat storied history in working in FinTech and large-scale financial services. One of the nice things about that job, which is sort of a weird thing to say there if you don't want to get ejected from the room, has been, “Yeah well, it's only money,” in the final analysis. Because yeah, no one dies if you wind up screwing that up. People's kids don't get exposed.It's just okay, people have to fill out a bunch of forms and you get sued into oblivion and you're not there anymore because the first role of a CISO is to be ablative and get burned away whenever there's a problem. But it still doesn't feel like it does more for a number of clients than, on some level, checking a box that they feel needs to be checked. Not that it shouldn't be, necessarily, but I have a hard time finding people that get passionately excited about security capabilities. Where are they hiding?Jack: So, one of the biggest problems that you're going to face is there are a lot of security people that have moved up in the ranks through technology and not through compliance and technology. These people will implement control frameworks based on audit requirements that are not bespoke to their company. They're doing it wrong. So, we're not ticking boxes; I'm creating boxes that need to be ticked to secure the infrastructure. And at Turnitin, Turnitin was a company that people were forced to use to submit their works in the school.So, imagine that you have to submit a sensitive essay, right? And that sensitive essay goes to this large database. We have the Taiwanese government submitting confidential data there. I had the chief scientist at NASA submitting in pre-publication data there. We've got corporate trade secrets that are popped in there. We have all kinds of FDA pre-approval stuff. This is a plagiarism detection software being used by large companies, governments, and 12-year-old girls, right, who don't want their data leaked.So, if you look at it, like, this is an ethical thing that is required for us to do, our customers drive that, but truly, I think it's ethics that drive it. So, when we implemented a control framework, I didn't do the minimum, I didn't run an [unintelligible 00:12:15] scan that nobody ran. I looked for tools that satisfied many boxes. And one of the things about the telemetry at scale, [unintelligible 00:12:22], XDR, whatever want to call it, right? But the agent-based systems that monitor for all of us this run-state data, is they can take a lot of your technical SOC controls.Furthermore, you can use these tools to improve your processes like incident response, right? You can use them to log things. You can eliminate your SIEM by using this for your DLP. The problem of companies in the past is they wouldn't deploy on the entire infrastructure. So, you'd get one company, it would just be on-prem, or one company that would just run on CentOS.One of the reasons why I really liked this Uptycs company is because they built it on an osquery. Now, if you mention osquery, a lot of people glaze over, myself included before I worked at Uptycs. But apparently what it is, is it's this platform to collect a ton of data on the run state of a machine in real-time, pop it into a normalized SQL database, and it runs on a ton of stuff: Mac OS, Windows, like, tons of version of Linux because it's open-source, so people are porting it to their infrastructure. And that was one of these unique differentiators is, what is the cloud? I mean, AWS is a place where you can rapidly prototype, there's tons of automation, you can go in and you build something quickly and then it scales.But I view the cloud as just a simple abstraction to refer to all of my assets, be them POPS, on-premise data machines, you know, the corporate environment, laptops, desktops, the stuff that we buy in the public clouds, right? These things are all part of the greater cloud. So, when I think cloud security, I want something that does it all. That's very difficult because if you had one tool run on your cloud, one tool to run on your corporate environment, and one tool to run for your production environment, those tools are difficult to manage. And the data needs to be ETL, you know? It needs to be normalized. And that's very difficult to do.Our company is doing [unintelligible 00:14:07] security right now as a company that's taking all these data signals, and they're normalizing them, right, so that you can have one dashboard. That's a big trend in security right now. Because we're buying too many tools. So, I guess the answer that really is, I don't see the cloud is just AWS. I think AWS is not just data—they shouldn't call themselves the cloud. They call themselves the cloud with everything. You can come in, you can rapidly prototype your software, and you know what? You want to run to the largest scale possible? You can do that too. It's just the governance problem that we run into.Corey: Oh, yes. The AWS product strategy is pretty clearly, in a word, “Yes,” written on a Post-it note somewhere. That's the easiest job in the world is running their strategy. The challenge, too, is that we don't live in a world where monocultures are a thing anymore because regardless—if you use AWS for the underlying infrastructure, great, that makes a lot of sense. Use it for a lot of the higher-up the stack, SaaS-y type things that you don't want to have to build yourself from—by going to Home Depot and picking up components, you're doing something relatively foolish in most cases.They're a plumbing company not a porcelain company, in many respects. And regardless of what your intention is around multiple clouds, people wind up using different things. In most cases, you're going to be storing your source code in GitHub, not in AWS CodeCommit because CodeCommit doesn't really have any customers, for reasons that become blindingly apparent the first time you try to use it for something. So, you always wind up with these cross-cloud, cross-infrastructure stories. For any company that had the temerity to be founded before 2010, they probably have an on-premises data center as well—or six or more—and you're starting to try to wind up having a whole bunch of different abstractions viewed through the same lenses in terms of either observability or control plane or governance, or—dare I say it—security. And it feels like there are multiple approaches, all of which have their drawbacks, which of course means, it's complicated. What's your take on it?Jack: So, I think it was two years ago we started to see tools to do signal consumption. They would aggregate those signals and they would try and produce meaningful results that were actionable rather than you having to go and look at all this granular data. And I think that's phenomenal. I think a lot of companies are going to start to do that more and more. One of the other trends people do is they eliminated data and they went machine-learning and anomaly detection. And that didn't work.It missed a lot of things, right, or generated a lot of false positive. I think that one of the next big technologies—and I know it's been done for two years—but I think we're the next things we're going to see is the axonius of the consumption of events, the categorization into alerts-based synthetic data classification policies, and we're going to look at the severity classifications of those, they're going to be actionable in a priority queue, and we're going to eliminate the need for people that don't like their jobs and sit at a SOC all day and analyze a SIEM. I don't ever run a SIEM, but I think that this diversity can be a good thing. So, sometimes it's turned out to be a bad thing, right? We wanted to diversity, we don't want all the data to be homogenous. We don't need data standards because that limits things. But we do want competition. But I would ask you this, Corey, why do you think AWS? We remember 2007, right?Corey: I do. Oh, I've been around at least that long.Jack: Yeah, you remember when S3 came up. Was that 2007?Corey: I want to say 2004, 2005 in beta, and then relaunched as the first general available service. The first beta service was SQS, so there's always some question about which one was first. I don't get in the middle of those fights because all I'm going to do is upset people.Jack: But S3 was awesome. It still is awesome, right?Corey: Oh yes.Jack: And you know what I saw? I worked for a very older company with very strict governance. You know with SOX compliance, which is a joke, but we also had SOC compliance. I did HIPAA compliance for them. Tons of compliance to this.I'm not a compliance off, too, by trade. So, I started seeing [x cards 00:17:54], you know, these company personal cards, and people would go out and [unintelligible 00:17:57] platform because if they worked with my teams internally, if they wanted to get a small app deployed, it was like a two, three-month process. That process was long because of CFO overhead, approvals, vendor data security vetting, racking machines. It wasn't a problem that was inherent to the technology. I actually built a self-service cloud in that company. The problem was governance. It was financial approvals, it was product justification.So, I think AWS is really what made the internet inflect and scale and innovate amazingly. But I think that one of the things that it sacrificed was governance. So, if you tie a lot of what we're saying back together, by using some sort of tool that you can pop into a cloud environment and they can access a hundred percent of the infrastructure and look for risks, what you're doing is you're kind of X-Ray visioning into all these nodes that were deployed rapidly and kept around because they were crown jewels, and you're determining the risks that lie on them. So, let's say that 10 or 15% of your estate is prototype things that grew at a scale and we can't pull back into our governance infrastructure. A lot of times people think that those types of team machines are probably pretty locked down and they're probably low risk.If you throw a company on the side scanner or something like that, you'll see they have 90% of the risk, 80% of the risk. They're unpatched and they're old. So, I remember at one point in my career, right, I'm thinking Amazon's great. I'm—[unintelligible 00:19:20] on Amazon because they've made the internet go, they influxed. I mean, they've scaled us up like crazy.Corey: Oh, the capability store is phenomenal. No argument there.Jack: Yeah. The governance problem, though, you know, the government, there's a lot of hacks because of people using AWS poorly.Corey: And to be clear, that's everyone. We all are. I take a look at some of the horrible technical decisions I made even a couple of years ago, based upon what I know now, it's difficult to back out and wind up doing things the proper way. I wrote an article a while back, “17 Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” and listed all the services. And I think it was a little on the nose, but then I wrote 17, “More Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” but different services. And I'm about three-quarters of the way through the third in the sequel. I just need a couple more releases and we're good to go.Jack: The more and more complexity you add, the more security risk exists. And I've heard horror stories. Dictionary.com lost a lot of business once because a couple of former contractors deleted some instances in AWS. Before that, they had a secret machine they turned into a pixel [unintelligible 00:20:18] and had take down their iPhone app.I've seen some stuff. But one of the interesting things about deploying one of these tools in AWS, they can just, you know, look X-Ray vision on into all your compute, all your storage and say, “You have PIIs stored here, you have personal data stored here, you have this vulnerability, that vulnerability, this machine has already been compromised,” is you can take that to your CEO as a CISO and say, “Look, we were wrong, there's a lot of risk here.” And then what I've done in the past is I've used that to deploy HIDS—XDR, telemetry at scale, whatever you want to call it—these agent-based solutions, I've used that to justification for them. Now, the problem with this solutions that use agentless is almost all of them are just in the cloud. So, just a portion of your infrastructure.So, if your hybrid environment, you have data centers, you're ignoring the data centers. So, it's interesting because I've seen these companies position themselves as competitors when really, they're in complementary spaces, but one of them justified the other for me. So, I mean, what do you think about that awkward competition? Why was this competition exists between these people if they do completely different things?Corey: I'll take it a step further. I'm a big believer that security for the cloud providers should not be a revenue generator in any meaningful sense because at that point, they wind up with an inherent conflict of interest, where when they start charging, especially trying to do value-based pricing as they move up the stack, what they're inherently saying is, great, you can get our version of our services that is less secure, so that they're what they're doing is they're making security on their platform an inherent investment decision. And I've never been a big believer in that approach.Jack: The SSO tax.Corey: Oh, yes. And many others.Jack: Yeah. So, I was one of the first SSO tax contributors. That started it.Corey: You want data plane audit logging? Great, that'll cost you. But they finally gave in a couple of years back and made the first management trail for CloudTrail audit logging free for everyone. And people still advertently built second ones and then wonder why they're paying through the nose. Like, “Oh, that's 40 grand a month. That should be zero.” Great. Send that to your SIEM and then have that pass it out to where it needs to go. But so much of it is just these weird configuration taxes that people aren't fully aware exist.Jack: It's the market, right? The market is—so look at Amazon's IAM. It is amazing, right? It's totally robust, who is using it correctly? I know a lot of people are. I've been the CISO for over 100 companies and IAM is was one of those things that people don't know how to use, and I think the reason is because people aren't paying for it, so AWS can continue to innovate on it.So, we find ourselves with this huge influx of IAM tools in the startup scene. We all know Uptycs does some CIAM and some identity management stuff. But that's a great example of what you're talking about, right? These cloud companies are not making the things inherently secure, but they are giving some optionality. The products don't grow because they're not being consumed.And AWS doesn't tend to advertise them as much as the folks in the security industry. It's been one complaint of mine, right? And I absolutely agree with you. Most of the breaches are coming out of AWS. That's not AWS's fault. AWS's infrastructure isn't getting breached.It's the way that the customers are configuring the infrastructure. That's going to change a lot soon. We're starting to see a lot of change. But the fundamental issue here is that security needs to be invested in for short-term initiatives, not just for long-term initiatives. Customers need to care about security, not compliance. Customers need to see proof of security. A customer should be demanding that they're using a secure company. If you've ever been on the vendor approval side, you'll see it's very hard to push back on an insecure company going through the vendor process.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Uptycs, because they believe that many of you are looking to bolster your security posture with CNAPP and XDR solutions. They offer both cloud and endpoint security in a single UI and data model. Listeners can get Uptycs for up to 1,000 assets through the end of 2023 (that is next year) for $1. But this offer is only available for a limited time on UptycsSecretMenu.com. That's U-P-T-Y-C-S Secret Menu dot com.Corey: Oh, yes. I wound up giving probably about 100 companies now S3 Bucket Negligence Awards for being public about failing to secure their data and put that out into the world. I had one physical bucket made, the S3 Bucket Responsibility Award and presented it to their then director of security over at the Pokémon Company because there was a Wall Street Journal article talking about how their security review—given the fact that they are a gaming company that has children as their primary customer—they take it very seriously. And they cited the reason they're not to do business with one unnamed vendor was in part due to the lackadaisical approach around S3 bucket control. So, that was the one time I've seen in public a reference where, “Yeah, we were going to use a vendor and their security story was terrible, and we decided not to.”It's, why is that news? That should be a much more common story, but these days, it feels like procurement is rubber-stamping it and, like, “Okay, great. Fill out the form.” And, “Okay, you gave some wrong answers on the form. Try it again and tell the story differently until it gets shoved through.” It feels like it's a rubber stamp rather than a meaningful control.Jack: It's not a rubber stamp for me when I worked in it. And I'm a big guy, so they come to me, you know, like—that's how being, like, career law, it's just being big and intimidating. Because that's—I mean security kind of is that way. But, you know, I've got a story for you. This one's a little more bleak.I don't know if there's a company called Ask.fm—and I'll mention them by name—right, because, well, I worked for a company that did, like, a hostile takeover this company. And that's when I started working with [unintelligible 00:25:23]. [unintelligible 00:25:24]. I speak Russian and I learned it for work. I'm not Russian, but I learned the language so that I could do my job.And I was working for a company with a similar name. And we were in board meetings and we were crying, literally shedding tears in the boardroom because this other company was being mistaken for us. And the reason why we were shedding tears is because young women—you know, 11 to 13—were committing suicide because of online bullying. They had no health and safety department, no security department. We were furious.So, the company was hosted in Latvia, and we went over there and we installed one I lived in Latvia for quite a bit, working as the CISO to install a security program along with the health and safety person to install the moderation team. This is what we need to do in the industry, especially when it comes to children, right? Well, regulation solve it? I don't know.But what you're talking about the Pokémon video game, I remember that right? We can't have that kind of data being leaked. These are children. We need to protect them with information security. And in education technology, I'll tell you, it's just not a budget priority.So, the parents need to demand the security, we need to demand these audit certifications, and we need to demand that our audit firms are audited better. Our audit firms need to be explaining to security leaders that the control frameworks are something that they're responsible for creating bespoke. I did a presentation with Al Kingsley recently about security compliance, comparing FERPA and COPPA to the GDPR. And it was very interesting because FERPA has very little teeth, it's very long code and GDPR is relatively brilliant. GDPR made some changes. FERPA was so ambiguous and vague, it made a lot of changes, but they were kind of like, in any direction ever because nobody knows FERPA is. So, I don't know, what's the answer to that? What do we do?Corey: Yeah. The challenge is, you can see a lot of companies in specific areas doing the right thing, when they're intentionally going out on day one to, for example, service kids as a primary user base demographic. The challenge that you see with this is that, that's great, but then you have things that are not starting off with that point of view. And they started running into population limits and realize, okay, we've got to start expanding our user base somewhere, and then they went a bolting on those things is almost as an afterthought, where, “Oh, well, we've been basically misusing people's data for our entire existence, but now—now—we're suddenly magically going to do the right thing where kids are concerned.” I wish, but unfortunate that philosophy assumes a better take of humanity than is readily apparent.Jack: I wonder why they do that though, right? Something's got to, you know, news happened or something and that's why they're doing it. And that's not okay. But I have seen companies, one of the founders of Scantron—do you know what a Scantron is?Corey: Oh, yes. I'm much older than I look.Jack: Yeah, I'm much older than I look, too. I like to think that. But for those that don't know, a scantron, use a number two pencil and you filled in these little dots. And it was for taking tests. So, the guy who started Scantron, created a small two-person company.And AWS did something magnificent. They recognized that it was an education technology company, and they gave them, for free, security consultation services, security implementation services. And when we bought this company—I'm heavily involved in M&A, right—I'm sitting down with the two founders of the company, and my jaw is on the desk. They were more secure than a lot of the companies that I've worked with that had robust security departments. And I said, “How did you do this?”They said, “AWS provided us with this free service because we're education technology.” I teared up. My heart was—you know, that's amazing. So, there are companies that are doing this right, but then again, look at Grammarly. I hate to pick on Grammarly. LanguageTool is an open-source I believe, privacy-centric Grammarly competitor, but Grammarly, invest in your security a little more, man. Y'all were breached. They store a lot of data, they [unintelligible 00:29:10] lot of the data.Corey: Oh, and it scared the living hell out of companies realizing that they had business users using Grammarly as an extension to work on internal documents and just sending proprietary data to some third-party service that they clicked through the terms on and I don't know that it was ever shown the Grammarly was misusing any of that, but the potential for that is massive.Jack: Do you know what they were doing with it?Corey: Well, using AI to learn these things. Yeah, but it's the supervision story always involves humans reading it.Jack: They were building a—and I think—nobody knows the rumor, but I've worked in the industry, right, pretty heavily. They're doing something great for the world. I believe they're building a database of works submitted to do various things with them. One of those things is plagiarism detection. So, in order to do that they got to store, like, all of the data that they're processing.Well, if you have all the data that you've done for your company that's sitting in this Grammarly database and they get hacked—luckily, that's a lot of data. Maybe you'll be overlooked. But I've data breach database sitting here on my desk. Do you know how many rows it's got? [pause]. Yes, breach database.Corey: Oh, I wouldn't even begin to guess. I know the data volumes that Troy Hunt's Have I Been Pwned? Site winds up dealing with and it is… significant.Jack: How many billions of rows do you think it is?Corey: Ah, I'd say 20 as an argument?Jack: 34.Corey: Okay. Yeah, directionally right. Fermi estimation saves us yet again.Jack: [laugh]. The reason I build this breach database is because I thought Covid would slow down and I wanted it to do executive protection. Companies in the education space also suffer from [active 00:30:42] shooters and that sort of thing. So, that's another thing about security, too, is it transcends all these interesting areas, right? Like here, I'm doing executive risk protection by looking at open-source data.Protect the executives, show the executives that security is a concern, these executives that'll realize security's real. Then these past that security down in the list of priorities, and next thing you know, the 50 million active students that are using Turnitin are getting better security. Because an executive realized, “Hey, wait a minute, this is a real thing.” So, there's a lot of ways around this, but I don't know, it's a big space, there's a lot of competition. There's a lot of companies that are coming in and flashing out of the pan.A lot of companies are coming in and building snake oil. How do people know how to determine the right things to use? How do people don't want to implement? How do people understand that when they deploy a program that only applies to their cloud environment it doesn't touch there on-prem where a lot of data might be a risk? And how do we work together? How do we get teams like DevOps, IT, SecOps, to not fight each other for installing an agent for doing this?Now, when I looked at Uptycs, I said, “Well, it does the EDR for corp stuff, it does the host intrusion detection, you know, the agent-based stuff, I think, for the well because it uses a buzzword I don't like to use, osquery. It's got a bunch of cloud security configuration on it, which is pretty commoditized. It does agentless cloud scanning.” And it—really, I spent a lot of my career just struggling to find these tools. I've written some myself.And when I saw Uptycs, I was—I felt stupid. I couldn't believe that I hadn't used this tool, I think maybe they've increased substantially their capabilities, but it was kind of amazing to me that I had spent so much of my time and energy and hadn't found them. Luckily, I decided to joi—actually I didn't decide to join; they kind of decided for me—and they started giving it away for free. But I found that Uptycs needs a, you know, they need a brand refresh. People need to come and take a look and say, “Hey, this isn't the old Uptycs. Take a look.”And maybe I'm wrong, but I'm here as a technology evangelist, and I'll tell you right now, the minute I no longer am evangelists for this technology, the minute I'm no longer passionate about it, I can't do my job. I'm going to go do something else. So, I'm the one guy who will put it to your brass tacks. I want this thing to be the thing I've been passionate about for a long time. I want people to use it.Contact me directly. Tell me what's wrong with it. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm right. I really just want to wrap my head around this from the industry perspective, and say, “Hey, I think that these guys are willing to make the best thing ever.” And I'm the craziest person in security. Now, Corey, who's the craziest person security?Corey: That is a difficult question with many wrong answers.Jack: No, I'm not talking about McAfee, all right. I'm not that level of crazy. But I'm talking about, I was obsessed with this XDR, CDR, all the acronyms. You know, we call it HIDS, I was obsessed with it for years. I worked for all these companies.I quit doing, you know, a lot of very good entrepreneurial work to come work at this company. So, I really do think that they can fix a lot of this stuff. I've got my fingers crossed, but I'm still staying involved in other things to make these technologies better. And the software's security space is going all over the place. Sometimes it's going bad direction, sometimes it's going to good directions. But I agree with you about Amazon producing tools. I think it's just all market-based. People aren't going to use the complex tools of Amazon when there's all this other flashy stuff being advertised.Corey: It all comes down to marketing budget, and AWS has always struggled with telling a story. I really want to thank you for being so generous with your time. If people want to learn more, where should they go?Jack: Oh, gosh, everywhere. But if you want to learn more about Uptycs, why don't you just email me?Corey: We will, of course, put your email address into the show notes.Jack: Yeah, we'll do it.Corey: Don't offer if you're not serious. There's also uptycssecretmenu.com, which is apparently not much of a secret, given the large banner all over Uptycs' website.Jack: Have you seen this? Let me just tell you about this. This is not a catch. I was blown away by this; it's one of the reasons I joined. For a buck, if you have between 100 and 1000 nodes, right, you get our agentless system and our agent-based system, right?I think it's only on AWS. But that's, like, what, $150, $180,000 value? You get it for a full year. You don't have to sign a contract to renew or anything. Like, you just get it for a buck. If anybody who doesn't go on to the secret menu website and pay $1 and check out this agentless solution that deploys in two minutes, come on, man.I challenge everybody, go on there, do that, and tell me what's wrong with it. Go on there, do that, and give me the feedback. And I promise you I'll do everything in my best efforts to make it the best. I saw the engineering team in this company, they care. Ganesh, the CEO, he is not your average CEO.This guy is in tinkerers. He's on there, hands on keyboard. He responds to me in the middle of night. He's a geek just like me. But we need users to give us feedback. So, you got this dollar menu, you sign up before the 31st, right? You get the product for buck. Deploy the thing in two minutes.Then if you want to do the XDR, this agent-based system, you can deploy that at your leisure across whichever areas you want. Maybe you want a corporate network on laptops and desktops, your production infrastructure, your compute in the cloud, deploy it, take a look at it, tell me what's wrong with it, tell me what's right with it. Let's go in there and look at it together. This is my job. I want this company to work, not because they're Uptycs but because I think that they can do it.And this is my personal passion. So, if people hit me up directly, let's chat. We can build a Slack, Uptycs skunkworks. Let's get this stuff perfect. And we're also going to try and get some advisory boards together, like, maybe a CISO advisory board, and just to get more feedback from folks because I think the Uptycs brand has made a huge shift in a really positive direction.And if you look at the great thing here, they're unifying this whole agentless and agent-based stuff. And a lot of companies are saying that they're competing with that, those two things need to be run together, right? They need to be run together. So, I think the next steps here, check out that dollar menu. It's unbelievable. I can't believe that they're doing it.I think people think it's too good to be true. Y'all got nothing to lose. It's a buck. But if you sign up for it right now, before the December 31st, you can just wait and act on it any month later. So, just if you sign up for it, you're just locked into the pricing. And then you want to hit me up and talk about it. Is it three in the morning? You got me. It's it eight in the morning? You got me.Corey: You're more generous than I am. It's why I work on AWS bills. It's strictly a business-hours problem.Jack: This is not something that they pay me for. This is just part of my personal passion. I have struggled to get this thing built correctly because I truly believe not only is it really cool—and I'm not talking about Uptycs, I mean all the companies that are out there—but I think that this could be the most powerful tool in security that makes the world more secure. Like, in a way that keeps up with the security risks increasing.We just need to get customers, we need to get critics, and if you're somebody who wants to come in and prove me wrong, I need help. I need people to take a look at it for me. So, it's free. And if you're in the San Francisco Bay Area and you give me some good feedback and all that, I'll take you out to dinner, I'll introduce you to startup companies that I think, you know, you might want to advise. I'll help out your career.Corey: So, it truly is dollar menu then.Jack: Well, I'm paying for the dinner out my personal thing.Corey: Exactly. Well, again, you're also paying for the infrastructure required to provide the service, so, you know, one way or another, it's all the best—it's just like Cloud, there is no cloud. It's just someone else's cost center. I like that.Jack: Well, yeah, we're paying for a ton of data hosting. This is a huge loss leader. Uptycs has a lot of money in the bank, I think, so they're able to do this. Uptycs just needs to get a little more bold in their marketing because I think they've spent so much time building an awesome product, it's time that we get people to see it. That's why I did this.My career was going phenomenally. I was traveling the world, traveling the country promoting things, just getting deals left and right and then Elias—my buddy over at Orca; Elias, one of the best marketing guys I've ever met—I've never done marketing before. I love this. It's not just marketing. It's like I get to take feedback from people and make the product better and this is what I've been trying to do.So, you're talking to a crazy person in security. I will go well above and beyond. Sign up for that dollar menu. I'm telling you, it is no commitment, maybe you'll get some spam email or something like that. Email me directly, I'll kill the spam email.You can do it anytime before the end of 2023. But it's only for 2023. So, you got a full year of the services for free. For free, right? And one of them takes two minutes to deploy, so start with that one. Let me know what you think. These guys ideate and they pivot very quickly. I would love to work on this. This is why I came here.So, I haven't had a lot of opportunity to work with the practitioners. I'm there for you. I'll create a Slack, we can all work together. I'll invite you to my Slack if you want to get involved in secondaries investing and startup advisory. I'm a mentor and a leader in this space, so for me to be able to stay active, this is like a quid pro quo with me working for this company.Uptycs is the company that I've chosen now because I think that they're the ones that are doing this. But I'm doing this because I think I found the opportunity to get it done right, and I think it's going to be the one thing in security that when it is perfected, has the biggest impact.Corey: We'll see how it goes out over the coming year, I'm sure. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it.Jack: I like you. I like you, Corey.Corey: I like me too.Jack: Yeah? All right. Okay. I'm telling [unintelligible 00:39:51] something. You and I are very weird.Corey: It works out.Jack: Yeah.Corey: Jack Charles Roehrig, Technology Evangelist at Uptycs. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an insulting comment that we're going to be able to pull the exact details of where you left it from because your podcast platform of choice clearly just treated security as a box check.Jack: [laugh].Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

In this special episode of The A to Z English Podcast, we talk with Jonathan from Costa Rica, a dedicated English student and an active member of our Whatsapp group. (Link here: https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7)Website Link: https://atozenglishpodcast.com/?p=1739It's a great conversation, so you won't want to miss it!Share your thoughts about today's interview in our Whatsapp group or tell us if you think you have something interesting to talk about. Perhaps you could be our next guest on the podcast!If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Full Transcript: Jonathan from Costa RicaKevin: Welcome to an A to Z English listener interview. Today we're talking with Jonathan Gutierrez who is in Costa Rica and is one of our listeners. And he's going to tell us today about his English learning experience using A to Z English and all of the other sources that he did. So Jonathan, nice to see you. it's night time there right?Jonathan: Okay, it's nice to see you guys. So um thank you for having me here.Kevin: Oh you're welcome. it's great to have you on the show. Jack: Yeah thanks for coming and I appreciate it. Kevin: Yeah it's already evening there. Did you have your dinner tonight?Jonathan: Uh not yet. I just arrived at home a few minutes ago.Kevin: Yeah?Jonathan: I was working today, so I just arrived at home maybe 10 or 15 minutes ago. But it's okay.Kevin: Well thank you for finding time to join us then for us it's Monday daytime of course time zones are funny, so Jonathan you're in Costa Rica.I've never been to Costa Rica though I have had a couple of friends that went there. Actually one of my good friends from university, he and his uh girlfriend at the time, now wife, they went to Costa Rica many years ago, maybe almost 20 years ago and they were teaching English for six months or a year, so I know English education is quite big in Costa Rica. How, where or when did you first start learning English? Was it in schools or did you have a tutor or just the internet or where did you start? Jonathan: Yeah I started when I in high school. Okay so I'm learning a few things in high school. Maybe I don't uh that I feel for example um I love the idiom or stuff like that. Sure maybe a couple years ago that I started to return again to learning English and I joined what's the room with Robin Shaw? So I started my new challenge. I changed my mind because I want um to get a bilingual job and I think I start to practice a little bit more. I forgot all the rules and English grammars. I love vocabulary so it was a little bit insane you know. Maybe not because I forgot so a lot of things um so it was something new for me. Let's start again. They start with uh maybe kids stuff um and it was pretty good. Robin helped me a lot. Kevin: I'm curious. if you said you started again because you forgot everything, I actually I know Costa Rica is a Spanish-speaking country and I used to speak a little bit of Spanish. I studied Spanish in university. But like you I stopped using it and I totally forgot everything once you started to study again. Was it easier than the first time? Did you start to remember things?Jonathan: Yeah it's quite something funny because when I'm trying to learn again um I remember oh I remember this but how can we use everything. So I forgot for example um singular verbs, plural, past tense and stuff like that. Yeah so it started again. I practiced a lot um every day and yeah I found a bunch of friends and I tried to do my best every day to learn English and my one of my goals was get bilingual because I am native speaker Spanish speaker all right good yeah. it was a big challenge you know. it was pretty awesome. I was excited to learn again English, so I decided to start again and practice and practice every day. Jack: That's great! Yeah do you use English in your job right now? Jonathan: Yes I've been working in a call center for around five months oh nice and is for um I am customer service agent for us company so it's something new for me and I'm taking calls every day for…Jack: So are the people that calling you are they they're Americans then?Jonathan: Yes.Kevin: And I know speaking another language over the phone can sometimes be more difficult than speaking together with a person because you can't see them. You don't know what their facial expressions or what their body is doing. What things have been the hardest for you doing a phone job where you're only listening to people speaking English and Americans have many different styles of English. Some are very fast. Some are very slow. What was what's the hardest thing for you in in your job?Jonathan: All right um I guess that's the listening stuff because when the customer speaks.Kevin: They start to speak and start to speak uh faster right?Jonathan: Faster and you need to get all the information in a few seconds and trying to avoid. Kevin: Do you mean trying umJonathan: Yeah trying I need to improve a lot my listening skills to avoid this kind of situation because it's a customer service job I mean right we need to focus on listening and try to get the best message with the customer and assist the customer and sometimes we can hear um maybe i'll set customers and we need to okay slow down, take it easy and assist the customer.Kevin: Well that sounds like our podcast would be helpful for listening skills. Then so I'm hopeful that we are helping you. There that's great yeah what was the…Jack: Uh could you could you give us an example of maybe like a very challenging phone call or a uh experience that you've had at the call center? Is there one memorable experience? Jonathan: Yeah we got a lot of accents from us so maybe for example when I try to speak uh when a customer uh he got access from example for Texas or um it's so hard to understand but I try to do my best and when decide to speak it faster and faster, it's hard to understand. But I always do my best every day.Jack: Yeah so like a southern Texas accent would be hard to understand but like in eastern in the east uh people speak quite quickly in New York and yeah Massachusetts in that area yeah people speak very fast, very quickly. Jonathan: You got it uh by the way um well our customers are from the east coast uh Massachusetts, Boston, New York and New Jersey yeah and Philadelphia um and I find that listening also can sometimes be more difficult than speaking because there's so many ways to say the same thing and one person says it this way, another person says it a different way and you know one way to say it and so you're correct you know how to do it but they use a different or a different way and so it can be very confusing. It's like oh I know what that means I know what you're saying but I don't know that way of saying it. Yeah all this comes with more and more practice. Kevin: Yeah exactly in the second part is the most important trying to explain the situation with the customer because it's a technical vocabulary so you need to explain some things from to someone that never uses uh technical vocabulary. That's really interesting. You need me to focus uh in something easy right to say to another person that's really interesting because then you are listening to an american a native speaker and you're speaking back to them and you're using words that they don't know so you know more English in some ways than they do. It's just that technical language. What a unique experience to know more English than a native speaker but having to change it for them to understand.Jonathan: Yeah it's a challenge because every day you need to focus on trying to explain yourself something easy about technical vocabulary so maybe it's easy, maybe sometimes it's uh difficult because you need to guess what the customer needs and sometimes it's hard because the customer is trying to explain something and you need to all right. Did you need uh this? You need this all right. I got it and this is the result.Jack: So uh you so you need to practice um your English and you use uh Shaw English and you listen to the A to Z English Podcast but um at your work do you also speak English to your co-workers, your colleagues. Do you practice even though you can both of you speak Spanish as a first language? Do you ever communicate in English with your colleagues just for practice?Jonathan: Yes a few things we need to uh speak English with another uh co-workers or maybe when you need to target another department, it's always speaking English and we always needs to be focused in speaking English together and it's more easy to end of the day for the end of the day. Yeah so when you go to work you basically switch your mind to English. You just say when I'm at work I'm using English and then when I get home I use Spanish.Jack: Is that right?Jonathan: Yeah but it's funny because for me I try to get involved um always in English environment so when I arrive at home I turn on my tv and find um series on Netflix and in English and or are you going to when i'm going to work i'm going to listen to music or listen to your podcast on my cell phone so I trying to always um thinking English, do something in English.Kevin: Cool! That's awesome! Yeah that's more and more practice. So of all of those things that you do the last question I like to ask people that we talk to is if you could give a tip to other listeners, what one thing do you think would be the most useful to practice English? Or what do you do that you think is the most useful? Jonathan: All right for me um I guess um you need to practice every day. It's not my magical poison you know or something like that but the first thing you need to change your mind, uh you need to start to focus in English uh think in English. Uh do exercise practice speak with friends uh maybe international friends is the best way because you never need to speak in another language, just holding in English because if I have a friend here, I can speak Spanish. But for example, if I got a friend on in Malaysia and another person doesn't know anything about the Spanish so you need to focus almost in English.Jack: That's a nice tip! Kevin: Nice! Well Malaysia is good. We talked to Mei Fong last week, so maybe if you talk to her, then you can practice as well. Yeah but that's a great tip getting your mind around English that's yeah a great thing. Just practice, practice, practice. Jonathan: Yeah a lot of practice and uh one thing, it's helped me a lot, is this shadowing technique.Kevin: Uh shadowing uh yeah watching videos on YouTube and practice is a bit aloud and yeah if you can't practice with a friend, you can still do something alone. Just listen and repeat and listen, repeat it does help. It helps you sound more natural in the language that's really fantastic.Kevin: You sound like you work really hard at your English and we're talking to you here, so it's having good results. Jack: Good job! Absolutely. Yeah thanks a lot Jonathan. We really appreciate it.Kevin: Yeah Jonathan. Thanks for sharing your story with us. It's very cool and now you've got to get some dinner. It's late there. You must be very hungry. Jonathan: Yeah a little bit. Kevin: Nice well thank you for coming and talking to us.Jonathan: Thanks to you guys. I really appreciate it. Jack: It's our pleasure. Kevin: Yyeah have a great evening.Jonathan: Same to you and take care and I hope I'll see you soon again. Kevin: All right thank you.Jack: Thanks Jonathan bye bye. Jonathan: See ya. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this special episode of The A to Z English Podcast, we talk with May, a dedicated English student and an active member of our Whatsapp group. (Link here: https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7)It's a great conversation, so you won't want to miss it!https://atozenglishpodcast.com/interview-with-may-fong/If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Listener Interview 001: May from MalaysiaFull TranscriptKevin: Hi everybody! Welcome to A to Z English. Today Jack and I are trying something new. We're gonna be starting to interview our listeners and we have our first listener today who is May Fong from Malaysia actually and May hi.May: Good evening!Jack: Hi!May: Good evening!Jack: Thank you for joining us. This is very cool.Kevin: Yes, thank you.May: Thank you for inviting me too!Jack: It's our pleasure yeah well yeah yeah.Kevin: I agree and because we are on an English podcast of course I'd like to know well how long have you been studying English for?May: Um yeah, obviously I'm learning English from school during my school time. That means from primary until secondary school but then um after study I have honestly I've forgotten most of my English like grammar tenses and all that okay and then I started to reinforce all my English language skills since 2020.Kevin: Oh, so just a couple years?May: Yeah. Where at that time I got a study grant from Malaysia okay it's it is basically a three-month English course so yeah I studied it and with one um e-learning company so okay yeahKevin: That's great and it's a Malaysian company?May: It is not a Malaysian company actually, it's um I can call it national company. Jack: So how long was the gap where you stopped studying English and then you started again? Was it like five years or longer than that?May: Honestly, I had not been studying English since the day I left school. I should say that so yeah I'm speaking English on a daily basis but then I just I just speak. I don't know whether what or whatever I speak is correct or not and why do we why do I say things in such a way, so yeah, I just speak English but uh I understand.Jack: So after school you continued to use English? You spoke English but you weren't studying formally until 2020? You started studying again more formally?May: Okay yeah for me I study again.Kevin: Okay and so you if you started studying a couple years ago again and first you started studying with that program right with that three-month course which is great, but now you listen to podcasts and thank you for listening to our podcast of course but what other, how do you self-study? What do you do to = help you improve?May: Okay. I will watch videos on YouTube okay basically where the moment I finished that the online class so I did I did not stop there so uh every day I will go to YouTube and then I will search for whatever video that I think interesting and important for me to learn.Kevin: Yeah and are these videos specifically English videos like English grammar pronunciation or is it just some other random video that you're interested in but it's in English?May: Um I started learning grammar learning then from there and then I search for also search for listening daily conversation vocabulary lessons and anything any I mean almost anything just anything that English language.Kevin: Sure okay and I'm curious to ask, you said you watch a lot of YouTube videos but something that you have told us is that you are visually impaired right? It's hard for you to see the screen and you have a voice screen reader reading to you which is very cool. So what do you find useful about YouTube? You're not really watching the videos, right? You're just listening to them.May: Okay on YouTube all the videos okay I can see all the video most of the video come with audio so I will just listen to the audio and then whenever there is a word that I don't understand I will read this subtitle. From there I can pick up the words. Then I will go and look into the dictionary. That's how I learn.Jack: Oh wow, so you as you watch the videos, everything that you understand you keep running the video but if you find a word that you that you're not familiar with you will look it up and find the definition and then go back to the video and then finish the video?May: Yes correct. I will pause the video and then I will check it out on the dictionary. I'll check it out in the dictionary then that's how I live.Jack: That's great! A great way to do it is checking the dictionary for anyone yeah.Kevin: Did you learn any interesting words today?May: Um not today.Kevin: That's okay, um but soon.May: Usually I will do my, I'll start learning at night time like um after 8 00 pm okay 8 pm so I'll go on YouTube and see what is interesting.Jack: And how many hours do you spend every day on learning English and watching videos or podcasts?May: Um I have no specific hours of day. About one or two hours.Kevin:  Nice! Wow, that's great. One or two hours every day is very good. I need to do more Korean every day, I do maybe two minutes, very small. That's funny, um, so May you're very busy on our Whatsapp group. How and and that's great we we love to encourage our listeners to participate I in the website. It's good to see.Jack: Yeah it's great to see and um how as uh um as a person who is visually impaired, how do you how do you do that? How do you participate do you um do you record your voice usually or do you type? I mean how does what does the what is the technology that you use to interact on our Whatsapp group?May: Okay there's a software. Basically, it's a screen reader okay um different type of software like on my laptop the software I use is called NVDA basically this this software will read whatever things appear on the screen okay. Let's say when I'm browsing a website so when I move the cursor around the software read for me okay what is currently showing on the screen whether it's a link it's a heading it's a there's some chat box of um something that I can click on to get more details things.Kevin: So, you move the cursor around the screen and it gives you a kind of uh um of mental a mental picture mental like information so you can kind of get an idea of what is on the screen well what about images. Does it also describe images as well?May: Okay it is depends on the website and the apps created by the provider. KSM created it in a very friendly way of redline user where they labels all the images with proper words so for that kind of a picture. Yes the system or the screen reader will describe but sometimes they are also challenges for me as a blind user where the I mean the provider did not label all the images graphic so that is the challenge for me.Kevin: Yeah may that's something that I've seen because for our website our A to Z English podcast website I'm the person who makes the website and so I've seen when I put up a picture or when I put something up it often tells me make a good description for blind people and so I have to remember so if if my website is not good enough yet please tell me and I will go add better descriptions but we don't have too many pictures yet.May: It is good if you can consider this people with disability. I mean the need of people with disabilities so that you know yes can also read whatever on your website.Kevin: So it is actually good. Yeah I will I will keep that in mind for people like you so thank you for the reminder.Jack: Yeah I noticed that you also like to post memes as well and uh is that is that a challenge to because uh it seems like you have you're really good at uh posting memes as well is that because the picture description is really good or okay?May: For the picture that I posted, I mean, they're all the pictures that I post every morning. I got it from a Facebook page okay yeah I mean on Facebook what I most of the picture and it can be I mean the screen reader can describe it properly so that's how I got it and I post it in the group. I share it in the group.Jack: So you search on Facebook and you find something that's funny and and interesting and then you put it into the Whatsapp group.May: Yeah I shared it if there was a group and also some of my friends like morning greetings.Kevin: That's great and why do you enjoy using our English Whatsapp group? How is that helpful for you?May: Every day okay actually I was learning English with Robin's channel. like Shaw English Daily English homework.Kevin: Yeah he's great.May: That's all very good. So from there I was you guys who always joined the what's up good job there was some bro so I I clicked the link to join the group and that's how I come into the group yeahJack: How do you uh how do you listen to the podcast? Do you listen to it on your smartphone or do you listen to it on the computer? I'm just curious. What's your favorite way to listen to a podcast?May: It can be done in both way actually but most of the time I'll listen at home. That means I will use my laptop to listen.Kevin: Uh so are you listening from our webpage?May: Yes from your webpage.Kevin: Oh that's great! That means I need to make the webpage better if you're using your own page.Jack: Blame Kevin blame Kevin.Kevin: Yes that's my um that's for me you you said that you have this special software that helps you describe the screen.Jack: And how like how long have like what was the process I I'm guess I'm wondering like when did you how long have you been visually impaired is this something that was from the time you were born or did it happen later in life? Did you lose your sight later?May: I was blind since I was born so that means when I was kid I started to learn I mean at that time there is no computer no internet right I think so we will learn for blind people. We will learn some uh braille. Have you heard about it?Kevin: Yes of course.May: Braille is a method for to assist blind people to read. It's a traditional way actually. It's a traditional way and actually it's um we are still using it until it until now the only thing is nowadays we have computer so we have um screen readers so most of the time we are using them.Kevin: Yeah and I know Jack and I talked in an episode not too long ago about technology and it's so amazing because when I was a kid the technology would be impossible for blind people to use the internet and now you browse the internet just as well as anyone else.Jack: You're a pro internet user and meme sharer and on social networks. I'm sure you're much better than I am at browsing the internet. I'm not very good with computers to be honest.Kevin: Yeah we're we're old people.May: Yeah okay they're actually this can do most of the things for blind like the light useronly sometimes there are challenges but of course overall it helps.Jack: Yeah that's what fantastic to hear. Yeah what is the what's maybe the biggest challenge um when using a screen reader? It's something that you if you if you could design your own software is there something you would change to improve it?May: The biggest challenge I could say will be when the provider created the website um as I mentioned earlier not friendly to blind users like they didn't label the image and the graphic and then one more thing is um they I mean uh for your information blind user doesn't use a mouse when navigate while navigating a computer all right so yeah so we use only keyboard only keyboard that means we have to remember most of the keyboard commands.Kevin: So you do know all of the pro commands, at least the main keyboard command the important ones?May: Right of course you'll need oh yeah when something is created on they created something where we can only click by the mouse or move around by the mouse that is the biggest challenge sureKevin: Interesting right yeah well May this is all very interesting to hear. It's so very cool that you're able even without being able to see the internet you're able to watch YouTube's from Robin's channel and you're able to listen to our podcast. That's so fantastic what the internet does for you today. I have one final question for you if because again we're an English learning podcast if you could give everyone a tip, what would you tell someone who wants to learn English how can they how can they learn what do you think was helpful?May: Um well there's a lot there's a there are a lot of free um learning channel learning tips learning exercises learning lessons on the internet so you just have to browse through it that's all you can learn okay actually yeah like The A to Z English Podcast.Kevin: Yep of course. Yeah that's great, so May, thank you very much for joining and for everyone else out there who's listening, we have a Whatsapp channel that we were talking about here and if you want to come and talk to us in our Whatsapp channel and maybe even talk to us here on an interview episode you can find all of the links and everything from our hopefully friendly website absolutely thanks very much nice to talk to you!Jack: thank you so muchWhatsapp Group Link: https://chat.whatsapp.com/H4LaiLAUc5SEiaxBp16aEpSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, Kevin and Jack talk about what technology was like back when they were young! The conversation started to go long, so expect more discussions about tech from these two oldies later on. We also had some listener mail from episode 10 about your favorite things!https://atozenglishpodcast.com/technology-from-the-80s-and-90s/Share your answers to the discussion questions in our WhatsApp group chat! https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Full Episode TranscriptKevin: Welcome to an a to z English Quick Chat. We're going to surprise each other with a topic for the day and just see where the conversation goes. Check out our site for a study guide, for vocabulary notes, discussion questions and remember we've got links to Whatsapp, a Facebook page and all of our other social media where you can check in the conversation. So. Jack, we've been talking with a lot of our listeners in our Whatsapp group actually and something I've found interesting is that there's a lot of young people in there.Jack: That's right.Kevin: And we are old compared to some of them and it, I kind of think it would be interesting to talk about technology because even one thing in our Whatsapp group so many of our listeners are doing voice memos in there and I'm just not used to that.Jack: yeah right.Kevin: Like i do text like I like typing and that voice message is weird and it feels like that's where tech is going and so tech has changed so much in our lives, I mean. When we were kids, we had no internet.Jack: I didn't have the internet um even actually my whole uh school career you know elementary, middle and in high school.Kevin: Cool. So, when did you get? When did you get your first computer in your house?Jack: Oh, I never had a computer.Kevin: When you were growing up you never had a home computer?Jack: I never had a home computer. I had a word processor. So, imagine if you have a computer but you take away everything fun and interesting about it and just leave the whatever's left over the unfun part the you know typing and papers and printing papers and think documents, yeah that's what that's what I had was a word processor that was, it's basically a typewriter with a little bit of editing that you can do.Kevin: And just for everyone listening. Just so you know, Jack and I are both oldies, but Jack has me. He's older than me by uh five years so not a huge difference but when it comes to technology, we were both born right when you know home computers and internet and things were starting to move around the world, and so we're even though we're only a few years apart there's a significant difference because for me, Jack, we had a we had a personal computer in my house when I was in I'm pretty sure we had one in elementary school when I was when I was in elementary school and it was a very simple computer. It had like no Windows. it was a DOS system, so you know there was no graphical interface which most of our listeners probably can't imagine like if you wanted to play a game or if you wanted to open the word processor, you would have to type. You just come, you'd open it up and it would just be a black screen with the letter c colon forward slash and you would just type text and you would just go like you'd say like go to word processor folder. Open word processor, you know in different text but basically that you'd have to type theJack: Type in the command basically.Kevin: Right exactly! Yeah, yeah, so, we had that when I was in elementary school and then I do remember connecting not to the internet but I remember connecting to a BBC. It was a bulletin board, something not the BBC from England.Jack: Oh, okay a different BBC. I was thinking that…Kevin: Yeah yeah, no this is a different BBC. It was just basically a bulletin board and it was I don't even remember exactly how they worked. You would dial in with your modem, and so you'd use the phone line and dial in and you'd connect to someone's server where then sometimes they had games, sometimes they just had chat rooms where you could talk to your friends and like very simple stuff, but I remember doing that in in elementary school.Jack: Oh, I did that in elementary school with my uh, on my friend's computer. So, my friend had a computer, and he was talking about using expressions like the internet or uh and I didn't understand any of it. I didn't know what that was.Kevin: Yeah right.Jack: And so he we were able to uh like you said go to some uh someone's private server I suppose right? He would share some kind of game and it was always just like a very simple kind of like not even, not even Super Mario level, you know, grab, it was a couple squares actually.Kevin: Kind of you know speaking of that, did you have, did you ever have any video game systems?Jack: Yeah, we were, I was a hardcore video game guy, Like, I love the original Nintendo. So, I started with the uh, I can go, I can go back really far here for our listeners because I was there at the very beginning. I bought Pong at a garage sale when I was in elementary school, and my television and Pong is basically two… it's like tennis or ping pong, and you move the cursor up and down, and it knocks the ball back and forth that was it. That was like the first video game.Kevin: It really was the first video game. I mean if you bought it from a garage sale like you bought it obviously used of course because I think that came out in the 70s at some point originally.Jack: Yep, it was sitting in somebody's garage for a long time, and I just bought it for like a dollar or two dollars and brought it home.Kevin: Nice!Jack: And we had that for a little while, but it got boring quickly, and then my parents bought me an Atari which was very popular in the 80s as well. Um, I think Nintendo and Atari had kind of a battle and Nintendo obviously won, but uh yeah, it was uh you know it was one of those things where we didn't know at the time which one would be the uh you know the winner, so the Atari. I had like Pac Man and all and it was it was a fun. It was very fun. They had great games, so yeah.Kevin: I never had an Atari. My brother and I, we did buy the first Nintendo, the NES, the Nintendo entertainment system and we bought that not when it was, because again, we're a couple years younger, so we bought that like a couple years after it was first released. So, it wasn't a brand new product, but it was still the video game system, and yep, We had that with the original Mario and Duck Hunt of course.Jack: Yes!Kevin: Yeah, and yeah, so we had those original Nintendo systems as well, so I mean that's a computer. That's the original tech. Now I mean computer systems and video games today are obviously so much different.Jack: Yeah, and I think a lot of it has to do with if your parents are into you know uh computers and stuff like that, so when you're young, if you're you know in my generation, because I'm old. In the 1980s, some people did have computers, but it just wasn't very common. None of my friends, you know, other than my one friend who did have a computer, but even when we played games it wasn't computer games. We would play Nintendo or Atari, so yeah, they were separate. They weren't, it wasn't a gaming system.Kevin: It was a video game always, not a computer game, it was a video game.Jack: Exactly.Kevin: I guess that's a good point about if your parents were connected to it. I think although my mom and dad weren't super techy necessarily, they, my mom at least, had a connection with it because my grandfather way back in the day, he was one of the first binary programmers for Eastman Codex, so like my mom has stories of him bringing back you know like a book of ones and zeros and ones and zeros and ones and zeros and finding the problem in the code of the ones and zeros code.Jack: Wow.Kevin: So at least my mom like understood you know tech is a thing and computers are a thing and this will be the future, and we need to go from there.Jack: Yeah, yeah, I mean that that is really interesting because I you know as time went by um my friends, some of my friends started to get computers when I was getting into like high school and stuff like that okay um but my family just wasn't, we were not computer people. And so I was very much like kind of afraid of computers. They were too, they were just mysterious to me and I didn't know how to operate them, and so I would write my papers either by hand, so I would just write my essays you know handwritten, or I would uh type it on a word processor or a typewriter. So okay, yeah, I got and I took uh, even in high school, I took two or three typewriting classes, so like how to type basically, yeah, how to type. So, basically just a big room full of typewriters, and we would just type documents, just copy.Kevin: Oh wow!Jack: Yeah, look at it and then type it and I you know I kind of uh proudly can say I got up into I think I was 75 words a minute, something like that.Kevin: That's pretty good. That's, that's quite fast. I type I think I type around that speed now actually after years of practice, you know, like that's a pretty good speed. I learned that's funny to compare them. I learned typing from a program called Mario teaches typing, and speaking of Mario, because of course you know I was a Mario fan and so I had like you know on one of my early computers, we had a program that was Mario teaches typing, and it was like the original Mario game right where Marios is running from the left to the right side of the screen but for each Goomba or each bad person or each you know block that you have to jump or whatever it starts with a letter.Jack: Yeah.Kevin: You know so it's like you have to hit whatever and you're jumping over you jump on them and then it starts to get more complicated and faster. It becomes a word or a sentence or and it's faster and faster and otherwise Mario dies if you if you don't get it, so I learned typing not from just yeah copying text but from like a game basically. I gamified typing.Jack: Yeah.Jack: I'm kind of curious to our listeners out there um how did you learn to type? Like what you know, do they teach? You know, for the younger generation, I imagine that computers are in schools everywhere, so if you know go to school now, you have access to a computer. My daughter was uh using a computer from the time she was you know uh five years old, so she can you know scroll on a screen and she can do all kinds of uh you know computer you know things on a computer that I could never do even as an adult. Now I've learned to do it because I had to, but it was, it's just interesting to compare my childhood to my daughter's childhood.Kevin: So along with typing, I'd be curious how, it depends on the age of our listeners as well, like what kind of phone they first had when they had a cell phone because remember like you and I, we never had a cell phone until we were quite late. I had my first cell phone here in Korea in 2007 or 2008. And I remember original cell phones. They actually had like a keyboard right like actual physical buttons. You know the phones today. It's just all on the screen. But I remember teaching at an academy and one of my young students, she was probably like your daughter's age like 13 or 14 something like that and because there were physical buttons, it's like a keyboard. You can feel where your thumbs are on it. Uh, I remember I was teaching her something and I saw her hands under the table just going away and she was able to type very fast without looking at her phone keyboard as well, and like I asked, I was like get your phone really quick. I wasn't angry. I was like hold on. I looked at it and she had typed like a full sentence, a full paragraph, not looking at this little nine button keyboard down under her.Jack: Using the uh, is it called qwerty is that what the old text message?Kevin: qwerty, no qwerty is the keyboard that you use right now.Jack: Oh, okayKevin: Because look at your keyboard, Jack. The top and bottom that the keyboard is QWE.Jack: Oh, okay i thought qwerty was where you press the three times and it you get uh it's like yeah.Kevin: qwerty is your keyboard because if you look at the thing.Jack: I just noticed that it said, yeah I've never put that together before today.Kevin: No, I'm not sure what though. I don't know the name of that three like you know where the button has abc and then cef and yeah you have to like go through all of those, um, I don't know the name of that offhand, but yeah, it, she was using that system and it was just crazy quick and very impressive. But Jack, I mean this is this technology topic, I think we could carry this, we could talk about this for days, and we haven't even gotten away from our like elementary school let alone when we were in high school let alone when we actually had the real internet and things like that. I think we'll have to uh part two this one or maybe uh turn this into a multiple uh episode conversation. This is definitely gonna be a part two part three part four because I mean tech is such an interesting part of our lives and you and I have seen it from where there really wasn't any tech or very little at least to now most of our listeners just are you know have always had tech like always in their lives and the way that like games and things are all combined now with your computer and everything, and so in your smartphone.Jack: So, I think uh we covered video games we'll talk about uh some other uh examples of tech.Kevin: Yeah, we'll have to get back to the early internet. I mean just one last thing because the interesting thing about the internet is I remember going online right now you're just always online. you're always on the internet. When we were younger, it was like I'm gonna use the internet and you would have to go and log into it and turn it on and now even that is different. Like, internet is just everywhere, it's yeah ubiquitous…Jack: I don't know how yeah I lived without it for so, you know as long as I did.Kevin: And that's and that's what we can talk about because there's so many things that like our phones do today for us that we somehow did without many years ago, and it's interesting to compare because I remember doing without it, but I don't know in retrospect why exactly, yeah but let's come back to this later because we've got to get to some listener mail of course. We do have some listener mail, so you go ahead and get to that. Who have we heard from this week?Jack: So, today I'm going to read listener mail from one of our listeners named Salomeh and Salomeh writes in uh regards to the episode of uh what are your favorite things and so for her, she said, in the past few years my favorite things were reading pdf books from her computer and cell phone so that kind of goes along with our episode. Reading books on your phone, yeah reading books on your phone, reading books on your computer, she enjoys surfing the web, playing computer games and drinking coffee. So, I think surfing the net, you know surfing the internet and drinking coffee has to be one of the most fun things you can do.Kevin: They go together very well, coffee and the internet. Nice, and that was episode 10 right? what are your favorite things.Jack: Yes, that's right.Kevin: For now, let's go ahead and wrap up. So, for everybody, thanks for listening. Remember to go join our Whatsapp group. It's linked on the webpage. You can join in the discussion as well. Tell us what you think. Ask questions, reply to the discussion, or if you have any topics, anything that you want us to talk about, anything, we'll go from there. So, everybody thanks for listening and we'll see you next time!Jack: Bye, bye! Key WordsWord processor: a machine that lets users create, save, and print documentsCommand: an order or instructionGarage sale: a sale of used or unwanted goods; normally held in a person's garage or yardUsed: not new; an item for sale which was owned by a previous personBrand new: new; an item for sale which has never been previously owned Discussion Questions1. How did you learn to type?2. How old were you when you first used the internet?3. How old were you when you got your first smartphone?4. Do you enjoy playing computer games? Why or why not? Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

19 hours of questions over the course of two days as Ketanji Brown Jackson Supreme Court Nominee continues her Senate confirmation hearing. Judge Brown Jackson has promised to work on cases "without fear of favor" if confirmed as the first Black woman on the Supreme Court. What will she be faced with today? And is there an update Justice Clarence Thomas, who remains hospitalized as he continues to recover from an infection. ABC News Correspondent Faith Abubey calls in to discuss. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

HIGHLIGHTSWhy do we have to analyze leading indicatorsSharing favorite metrics to analyzeImportance of being a data-driven companySharing of client storiesData Visualization Tools (Google Data Studio, Excel, Tableau)How to identify or choose the right KPIs to measurePrimary and Secondary KPIsQUOTESJonathan: “People don't like us that we're analysts, you know, that we're analytical that we want to know. Too many small businesses just focus on the profit and loss and just like, am I making money and and like, that is missing the boat.”Jonathan: “We have to know what the leading indicators are. And these are why we use KPI so we can know how we're doing.”Jonathan: “And so it's one thing a lot of business owners, entrepreneurs, leaders, they look at indicators. And they focus on sales and marketing indicators only. They don't focus on operating metrics.”Jack: “So that's kind of when I'm not like trying to convince anybody, just when I'm talking about it, like, Hey, if you invested in a dashboard, or if you became a bit more data driven, let's say, at the very, most, maybe it's five grand, maybe it's 10 grand, or something like that. But if that helps you save 15 grand, or make better decisions, you make an extra 20 grand or something, the ROI is kind of a no brainer.”Jack: “I know it's kind of a new agey type thing in sports. It is not that new agey in business, it is how successful businesses have been running for a long time. It's now kind of trickling but trickling down into the small businesses and entrepreneurs and becoming a lot more accessible there, which is the whole point of my business, but also just really exciting for the industry in whole.”Jack: “65% of people are visual learners, but I would guarantee that 100% of people, if they look at their scorecard and they see a big red down arrow or a big red square, that is going to be a red flag to them and they will look closely at it.”To connect with Jack, check out the links below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-tompkins/Website: https://www.pineapplecf.com/If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, review and share with a friend who would benefit from the message. If you're interested in picking up a copy of Jonathan Goldhill's book, Disruptive Successor, go to the website at www.DisruptiveSuccessor.com.

Mother May I: By Joshilyn Jackso "The tension is skillfully built . . . a thriller with a sharp #MeToo edge." -- Kirkus Reviews on Mother May I "An addictive domestic suspense, Jackson's latest asks how far a mother will go to protect her child." -- Parade on Mother May I "Gripping . . . The dark secret at the novel's heart rings all too true. Jackson knows how to ratchet up the suspense." -- Publishers Weekly on Mother May I Website: https://gobookmart.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/gobookmart-review/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/gobookmart-review/support

The Santita Jackson Show 09.15.20 Today on The Santita Jackson Show, we start off with good news with Rev. Greg Livingston. A new recording comes out where President Trump says Coronavirus is like the plague, yet he is still have rallies and not encouraging face masks? Dr. Debra Furr-Holden joins us to discuss. The 2020 election is coming up, but some states are removing thrid party candidates from ballots, and certain states such as Florida, are blocking hundreds of thousands of felons from voting, Atty. Daryl Jones, and Atty Robert Patillo join us to discuss the importance of voting, and what voting will be like in the era of corona virus. What will voting be like in 2020? Americans differ by party | Pew Research Center https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/09/08/americans-expectations-about-voting-in-2020-presidential-election-are-colored-by-partisan-differences/ Federal appeals court blocks hundreds of thousands of felons in Florida who still owe fines and fees from registering to vote - The Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/florida-felon-voting/2020/09/11/9a6b5d3a-f45e-11ea-bc45-e5d48ab44b9f_story.html?outputType=amp#aoh=160014355310 And if you had to predict which career had the most cases of domestic violence, listening to the media you might guess something like an NFL player, but the statistics show police officers and military have higher cases of domestic violence cases. Stacy Bannerman the author of Homefront 911: How Families of Veterans are Wounded by our Wars, and David Masciotra of Salon, join us to discuss just what leads the military and police to these, and how does this effect their families and those around them. Police Have a Much Bigger Domestic-Abuse Problem Than the NFL Does - The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/?link_id=7&can_id=59265b6068d6404ce7e4c7c17b2b0522&source=email-epidemic-of-uniform-violence-at-home-interviews-available-2&email_referrer=email_863111&email_subject=epidemic-of-uniform-violence-at-home-interviews-available Police Officer-Involved Domestic Violence | BWSS https://www.bwss.org/police-officer-involved-domestic-violence-2/?link_id=9&can_id=59265b6068d6404ce7e4c7c17b2b0522&source=email-epidemic-of-uniform-violence-at-home-interviews-available-2&email_referrer=email_863111&email_subject=epidemic-of-uniform-violence-at-home-interviews-available When Strains on Military Families Turn Deadly https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/15/us/15vets.html

On this very special episode of The SNSW Podcast we are playing our annual NFC/AFC Record Pick em' game!This episode is the AFC Predictions half of the podcast where Broadway Joe Malkin, Rayshawn Buchanan, and Craig D'Alessandro put forth a very magnanimous and friendly attempt to guess all the final season records of each team in the AFC! Friendships are strengthened and bonds put forward for the whole world to see as they try their hand at winning this years season record pick-em game!Listen in for a wildly fun guessing game! See the exact rules laid out for our brave contestants below.AFC PICKEM12 Minutes per division inside the AFCBy the end of 12 minutes, the team must have the records of each of the four teams decided.The NFC Podcast gets 2 minutes to respond.At the end of the season, each correct guess within two games awards a point.Teams will also submit their THREE wildcard teams that are worth two bonus points at the end of season tally.Michael Marcangelo introduces the AFC contestants and explains the rules for the game (1:35)Discussion of the Houston Texans and their potential record in the AFC South (2:41)Discussion of the Tennessee Titans and their potential record in the AFC South (5:05)Discussion of the Indianapolis Colts and their potential record in the AFC South (7:44)Discussion of the Jacksonville Jaguars and their potential record in the AFC South (10:24)NFC Podcast Rebuttle (12:25)Discussion of the Baltimore Ravens and their potential record in the AFC North (14:08)Discussion of the Pittsburgh Steelers and their potential record in the AFC North (17:54)Discussion of the Cleveland Browns and their potential record in the AFC North (20:04)Discussion of the Cincinnati Bengals and their potential record in the AFC North (22:18)NFC Podcast Rebuttle (25:15)Discussion of the Kansas City Chiefs and their potential record in the AFC West (27:30)Discussion of the Las Vegas Raiders and their potential record in the AFC West (31:10)Discussion of the Los Angeles Chargers and their potential record in the AFC West (33:57)Discussion of the Denver Broncos and their potential record in the AFC West (36:27)NFC Podcast Rebuttle (38:33)Discussion of the New York Jets and their potential record in the AFC East (40:43)Discussion of the Miami Dolphins and their potential record in the AFC East (43:56)Discussion of the Buffalo Bills and their potential record in the AFC East (46:18)Discussion of the New England Patriots and their potential record in the AFC East (49:19)NFC Podcast Rebuttle (54:06)AFC Wildcard picks (56:43)Final Words and general NFL Discussion (1:02:22)Follow us on Social MediaFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/sundaynightsportswrapInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/nightwrapsnsw/Twitter: https://twitter.com/NightWraphttps://sundaynightsportswrap.wordpress.com Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/MTPshow)

Welcome, Good Monday morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. I was on with Jack Heath this morning. We talked about the new infestation from Asia to our continent, the Asian Murder Hornet.  We also discussed the importance of being careful when you search online for information because in many cases, Google results have been poisoned.  Which means you will not get the results you are looking for. Here we go with Jack. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Jack and I, we're just talking about those $500 checks for dependents. Don't only search online. Poisoning of results on Google and as well as on a number of the other search engines is occurring. Now, if I send you to places, they'll send it to sites you don't want to visit. Craig Hey, everybody, Craig Peterson here. I hope you're having a decent day. I had fun with Jack Heath on his morning drive show, carried on I heart stations and others. He's on several stations and networks. It is kind of cool. Anyhow. On the subject of the new Asian hornet and here, the murderer hornet, came up this morning. We also talked about some of the new technology stuff we all need to understand. So here we go with Mr. Heath. Jack We're going now to one of our great regular contributors Craig Peterson. Tech Talk Craig Peterson dot com and on Tech Talk side, Craig, these scams are getting worse. There are scams everywhere now related to COVID-19, but what else you have? Craig Yeah, it's gotten terrible. You know, I'm a beekeeper too, right. Jack What's your take on the murder hornet? Unknown Speaker 1:18 Did you know I have chickens and used to have horses? Well, they, frankly, it's kind of scary, but the Hornets are already here. I had a real problem last year with the Hornets. They go right around the beehives these Hornets we already have like the bald-faced Hornets nasty things. They kill bees, and they eat the bees. We are losing about 50% of our bee populations every year here in the country. Now, this murder Hornet came from Asia, the Varroa destructor mite, which also came from Asia, is killing off. About a third looks like here in New Hampshire are our hives every year. Things are awful for bees. And, and we need them for pollination California depends on it. Half of all of the bee colonies in the United States get trucked to California to pollinate almonds every year. So it's Yeah, it's a problem, and this murder hornet makes it worse. These things are enormous. They're bigger than your thumb. Jack I know Justin wants to get one as a pet, like a tarantula. But Craig, I am not going to have to go to the grocery store in a B suit. A mask is ok, but is that we're going to have soon? Craig Hey, if you're looking for COVID-19 information, I want to remind people the FBI is warning right now again, if you're looking for information, you can go directly to the CDC, or Johns Hopkins University also has some great news. There are so many scams out that are trying to get you to give information. Jack and I, we're just talking about those $500 checks for dependents. Don't only search online. Poisoning of results on Google and as well as on a number of the other search engines is occurring. Now, if I send you to places, they'll send it to sites you don't want to visit. Jack So go directly to irs.gov. Go to those. You know, it's funny to say that I was going off a news story last Thursday or Friday, and I just searched. And it did not take me to the correct topic. It's funny what's happening now with Google? Craig Yeah, I mean, it's been around for a while here. And Google learns from people's actions on the website. So if you go to Google, you search for something. You click on articles. Google says, oh, how many people clicked on this and clicked on that? Oh, it's popular, and they have a bunch of ways to figure out what it's popular, whether it should show it to you. People can go online to Google, and as few as a few dozen people using these bots can trick Google into sending you to places that you probably shouldn't be going, and that is what is known as poisoning. So it's, this has gotten extremely bad. And you're right to warn people to be doubly careful those emails that come in so many of them have some nasty stuff attached to them. And we also see real quick here office work is changing. It's going to change afterward, and I want to point out something that Dyson has done that's fantastic. You can go to the James Dyson foundation online. They have put up new challenges for our kids, their engineers over at Dyson 44 different challenges your kids can do at home, for schools, and great for homeschool right now. Let's get those engineers going. Jack Alright, and Craig By the way, you're going to be our murder Hornet correspondent, and since you're a beekeeper, I want your code name to be Green Hornet. I want you to keep us posted on the murder hornet. Craig Salut. Craig Hey guys, I have fought here. I'm you know, I ran about two dozen of these different webinars just doing some training. And I think we have something that we can do for you and I say we I mean my team and I and are thinking about right now, let me know by dropping me an email just me, me at Craig peterson.com. Well, here's what I'm thinking. You guys need some basic level of training to get you up to understand the basics of what you need to do as far as your cybersecurity. Right. So that's one part of it. None of you, I don't think are trying to become cybersecurity experts. And then on the other side, you guys are interested in knowing - What do I need to do this month? You know, what are the patches I need to worry about, etc., etc. So that's what I'm thinking about putting together. It would be a paid service but affordable for even the smallest of businesses. I'm thinking about doing a founders launch, where the first ones who join will lock in the low price forever. Let me know if you think that might work. I want to get you to a basic level of understanding and then showing you what to do each month, helping you know, what you need to be doing, and how to do it, and how to recover from problems. Maybe we should have kind of an add on that provides you with tech support if you have issues. So, let me know what you think. Just email me: me at Craig Peterson dot com. Have a great day, everybody. Take care. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Message Input: Message #techtalk Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

On this episode we get to know a little more about Aaron Newell, from being immune to CBD, to random prayers failing LOL! We talk about the first US national series race that took place in Jackso

James: Hey, audience. Welcome to Achieve Wealth podcast. Achieve Wealth podcast focuses on value add real estate investing. I'm James Kandasamy. Today I have an accomplished couple, Jack and Michelle Bosch. And Jack and Michelle Bosch have done more than 4000 land flips across the nation. Land flips is something very interesting to me. And, you know, it's an asset class, or an asset class, which I think is very interesting. And you can learn how we make money out of it. They've done a lot of single-family houses. And they also have done apartments; 330 units apartments. And, you know, they are continuing to look for more and apartments as well, but I think they are the masters of land flip. Hey Jack and Michelle, welcome to the show. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, James we're excited to be here. Jack: Thank you for having us, James. James: Tell me, did I miss out anything in your credentials or you know, did I -- Jack: No, other than we're both immigrants, we both came from other countries. So we started here with, just like you, just came over from another country and so we have that in common. But now we flip now 4000 pieces of land. We teach it now; so we have seminars on that. But then for asset allocation, basically the money we make for land flips and whichever way rental properties now, we rolled that into more and more two apartments now. Michelle: Yes. James: Got it. Michelle: To produce what we call one-time cash with the land flips like you work for a once and you get paid once. We're also able to produce some cash flow because we are also able to sell those properties using seller financing, you know. James: Got it. Michelle: And so you do get some mailbox money, but those notes usually come to an end once the property is paid off. And so, we're always in the back of our minds is okay, let's roll cash profits and cash flow into what we call forever cash, which would be a partner. James: Got it. Before we go into the detail of land flipping, I want to understand your background because I know all of us are immigrants So can you tell me when did you guys move to the country? And how did you move? Were you already successful on the day that you land in this country? Michelle: Oh no. Jack: Of course, we're like, we're a billionaire. James: Did you find gold outside the boat? Jack: No. So, Michelle… Michelle: Yes, for me I came from Honduras here in 1995 to study. I came to a tiny little town like about three hours South-West of Chicago called McComb, Illinois, that's where I met this man in the middle of the cornfields. It's basically university town, you know, and nothing else to do.I came here for a business degree, my undergrad, and I was in my senior year there, my third and last year when I met Jack. We shared some upper finance courses together because he was here for an MBA, 10 months. He met me and then he couldn't leave anymore. James: Got stuck, you got stuck in the US. Jack: She's right. She summarized it. I came in 1997, Michelle was in her last year in undergrad. I did come in for a Masters to that same university that had an exchange program with the university I used to go to Germany. And I was kind of like be able to kind of accomplish three goals in one year. Number one; I was able to get an MBA in the United States because it was an accredited school and I was studying business Germany. Already had enough credits and I just needed these 10 months, was enough to give me the American MBA. They give me, I tested out and all of these other things. Number two, I was able to get credit for the missing classes in Germany. So with that, I didn't have to go back to Germany to do more classes. I completed my degree in Germany, those same classes gave me the MBA. Also helped me complete my degree in Germany and improve my English. And the fourth and most important thing, I met this one. Michelle: But to answer your question as to whether we came here successful, absolutely not. I came in with two suitcases to my name, Jack pretty much the same. You know, I was raised by a single mom and my father passed away when we were very, you know when I was very young. And it was, you know, she was sending me here to study with a lot of sacrifices. I had to take several courses, you know, take seven courses per semester, like advanced as much as possible, because I couldn't afford to be in the US for more than two and a half, three years, you know what I mean? And eating soup towards the end of the semester when you run out of money. And, but I didn't have, I did have in the back of my mind the thought that real estate has been incredibly good for my family. You know, before my father passed, he had made an amazing decision. And it was to buy a piece of commercial property that to this day spits out cash, you know, for my mother. And so -- Jack: And that piece of property brought her to college here in the -- Michelle: Got me through college. Jack: And still sustains her mom over there. Yes, in my case and my dad's, again the same thing my mom, not the same thing but similar. My dad is a high school teacher, retired now. My mom's a stay at home mom. So no, I came here with student debt. I came here with enough money to pay for one semester, I didn't have, really didn't have a clue, how I would even pay for the second semester. Luckily, I got a job at school. The first car that I bought in the US was a $900 old Chevy caprice, like the old [inaudible05:31] car that they use to drive around -- James: It had four wheels, right? Four wheels? Jack: Four wheels, yes. Michelle: And I was like Jack, why did you get this, I mean, there are so many cars, why did you get this car? And his answer was like, cars in Germany are so tiny, I was looking for the biggest car possible in the US. Jack: Like Germans and every single one of them bought the biggest car that they could find. James: That's good. That's good. Yes, I like to, that's a very interesting story from both of you, right. So I like to, I mean before we go into the technicality of the commercial real estate and all that, I like to understand a lot about the thought process and you know, the people behind it, right. Because I think that's what makes everybody successful. It's not about the tool like real estate, right. So tell me about what was your family thinking when looking about the US from outside, right? Did they think the US is the land of opportunity, easy to get rich? Or how I mean, can you talk about the process that when families outside of the country when they want to send their children to the US, what do they usually think, you know, what do they think that you kids will get here? Jack: Well, I think Michelle's mom was perhaps not thrilled that she would stay here. Michelle: Yes. James: But not thrilled? Michelle: No, yes. James: Okay. Michelle: The whole point was to come here, study, not find a husband, go back home and basically help her manage, you know, this piece of real estate and hopefully, you know, continue growing the legacy that was left to us. James: Okay. Jack: Next, get a job, right? Michelle: Yes, yes. Jack: Same thing here. My parents were absolutely not thrilled that I was staying here behind. They, I literally had the job lined up in Germany. I had the, I just put my student furniture in my parents' basement. I had a good degree from a good university and good things and they're like, what are you doing? What are you staying there? What's going on there, you're so far away. In particular, my mom had a really hard time with it for several years. But then once they saw our success, particularly once we entered real estate, and once we saw success and what that success actually means for them too and for us. It's like we don't, we see our parents, this year we see my parents three or four times even though they live in Germany. And it's like, and they, we support them a little bit financially. They get to come here and they get to spend time here. And they see that they don't have to worry about us like we're the one or like, we're my, Michelle and our family, they don't, they're like a peace of mind. They're okay. They're good. They're happy financially, they're good. So, you know what as a parent you wonder, you want to have that feeling. So they know, ultimately, it's a good decision and took them like 15 years to say that, but they did. Michelle: Yes, I mean, we also contributed to, you know, being able to retire Jack's dad before time. You know, a couple of years before he had been working as a school teacher for many, many years. And he was just at the point where he just didn't want to do it anymore but he couldn't leave it because, you know, that involved a big reduction in his pension if he did. And so we put the pedal to the metal back then and it was just through land flipping, to be able to make up for that, you know, for those two years of early retirement and being able to retire him early. So -- Jack: So he ended up retiring a year and a half, two and a half years early because of that and James: Wow, awesome. Jack: And so overall so now they totally have changed. Michelle: Yes, so family has been always I think also big why for us, a big driver to get things done. James: Got it. That's absolutely what happened, you can come here and help out your family back home. It's just sometimes people, I mean sometimes they think that okay we want to come to the US and stay here but that was not the case for both of you, right? I mean, you came to study and you're supposed to go back. But you got stuck with each other. Jack: The United States is a wonderful country to be. But then we also, we realized, I don't want to live in Honduras, Michelle didn't want to live in Germany. Nothing wrong with these two countries, they are beautiful countries but language barriers, cultural barriers [inaudible09:40] we're already here, let's try to make this work here. We got lucky, we both got jobs here. We got the job that got the visa, the h1B visa, took five and a half years to get to that process. Michelle: And it was a job, jobs we both hated. But we were handcuffed because of the, you know, green card situation. And so we had to stay but -- Jack: Yes, but yes, it was just something, let's see if we can make this work here because we like it here. And we -- James: Got it. Jack: Beautiful neutral ground also for us. James: So do you think that as an immigrant, did that whole life situation gave you a boost, a reason for you to be successful in the US? Michelle: Absolutely, it like, I think it was incredible, it gives you an incredible drive and hunger. Like I don't come from a wealthy society like Jack's, you know. I was going back to a third world country, you know, yes, from a middle-class family, but still to a very poor society. And so for me, yes, that, you know, that was an incredible drive, you know. You still go back home and those wealth disparities between the haves and have nots are brutal. And so you definitely don't want to be caught in the haves not part. You want to be caught in the other group of people. So, yes, that was definitely a big, big drive for me for sure. Jack: Yes, absolutely, yes, same here. I mean, but a different way. Here, it's more like I could, anytime I could have left and go to Germany, first-class country, Mercedes Benz, would've gotten a good job with a BMW as a business car and expense budget and staying in nice hotels and all those kind of stuff. But the overall I mean, there's something really amazing about the US and I keep saying and it's not like blind nationalism. It's just for business and for success and for comfort, and for just that particular business. It's just an amazing country. It's like so once we started setting our eyes on that, it's like, it's so easy to do this. And definitely helps to be an immigrant, I don't know if the hardship helps if you use them, right. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So we use them as fuel. We used them as a reason why we needed to succeed because we did not want to live a life like I was travelling 100%. I mean, sounds glamorous, like I was jumping the plane on Monday morning going somewhere. But I was staying in Holiday Inn Express where ants were crawling up the walls. And in some cases, and usually, in small towns, where there are five restaurants, three of them are fast foods and I was like working in some companies up till midnight and I didn't enjoy it. So I use those things as fuel to say okay, I really got to do something extra in order to succeed. Now, having said that, being an immigrant here, which as you can probably confirm, is you start, you see way more opportunity that the non-immigrant see. Because it's not normal to you, what you see around you is all new. So as it's new, you look at it from a different angle and you see the holes in it, based on compared to what you see in other places in the world. And it's like well, and any kind of opportunity that ever existed is really masking itself as a problem. So you see, like anything that created like glasses, have been created because people don't see up with eyesight anymore. The problem is the eyesight gives is the solution. So anything even multifamily is the solution to a problem. You take a problem, you take a problem property that's been run down and you make it into the prettiest property in the neighbourhood. You provide a solution for people who want to save, solid, good well-working place, affordable place to live you can make something out of that. And it's true for everything and as an immigrant, I have a feeling you see that much more than then if you're born and raised here and it's everything is just normal. James: Yes, yes. Hey, I had a friend from the UK and he left the UK came to the US and he kept on telling me this. I don't know whether the UK or entire Europe, right, I mean it's a well to do country, it's a rich country but there's no easy part to break out from your circle.You can't break out as a breakout and go to the next level, you’re always within that, you're probably working, you're earning, you're learning, you are living an average life like everybody else, but you can't break out to the next level. So I'm not sure how is that in Germany, but in the US. Jack: Plus Germans, they don't move a lot. So you're on top of it, almost like down by your social circles, that like there's a party, a thing and a friendship. So if you start breaking out, you become you're almost alienating the people around you. Michelle: An anomaly. Jack: An anomaly. James: Okay. Jack: And if you don't have the stamina to keep that off and build a new circle of friendships or so, then you're going to be pulled back down. And that's another benefit as an immigrant, it's like, hey, it's like you didn't burn the boat but you cut the ties. It's a brand new world, it's a brand new opportunity, you associate yourself and make friends with those people that you want to make friends with. And it's just a, it's almost, it's a brand new world. It's a different thing. James: Got it. Michelle: I think especially in Jack's case, you know, resonates with that because he comes from a very small town in Germany. And he's like, there are some people that even though I didn't want to socialize, I had to because it was such a small town. James: Yes, that's true. Jack: Once when I was younger I was in college, I went to study in Spain for half a year. I came back went to my favourite bar and they just asked me, hey you looked tan, what do you want to drink? So nothing changed in like eight months or so. And not a single thing had changed, the same people were sitting at the same desk, tables, in the same bar, drinking the same drink. And 20 years later, still is nothing has changed. It's still, you know, look older and unhealthier but other than that it's the same thing. James: Yes. That's maybe that's why the index happiness index is much higher in some European country. People are just happy with the way they are, right? Jack: Yes, and there's no judgment in that. Michelle: Yes. James: Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to get rich just leave as it is, right so? Jack: Yes, there's nothing set to be there but if you have ambitions if you enjoy growth, like a bit like we enjoy personal growth. We're really on a personal growth journey, it comes with challenges, it comes with new hurdles, it comes with expansion and so it wouldn't be my work. Michelle: And those challenges, you know, are our part, we know are part of the journey. And you think that the goal is you know, a worth goal, but it's really, the goal is a being on a constant process of becoming, an expansion kinda like what Jack said. Jack: And the wealth comes as a side benefit of that. James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to your businesses. So you guys, you had your green card, you came here. You worked for how many years did you work on a corporate life? Jack: Five and a half. Michelle: Five and a half. James: Five and a half, so what happened after five and a half? When did you start your land flipping thing? Jack: Well, the land business, we started about three years in or two years in we realized this is not what we want to do with this job thing. So we started dabbling with real estate. And we really didn't find success until about four years into it, until the end of 2002. So -- James: Hold on, on the two years that you realize that your work is not the thing that you all wanting to do, right? Jack: Right. James: What was that ah-ha moment, say that? Jack: The ah-ha moment was actually, for me was the first particular day that the company of 7000 people, let go a 1000 people in one day. Michelle: Right after September 11. Jack: And the economy did a massive shift downwards, the software company that had grown from 500 people when I joined them to 7000 people, three years later to two or three years later, we're starting to go back down from 7000 to 4000 people. And they did that in one year. As a matter of fact, it was within three days, during that one year. James: Wow. Jack: So one day 1000, another day 1000, another day 1000. These cuts were like for a few months apart from each other. But the first time that happened was when they literally, left and right when they when we were at the customer side, there was a software company. But I don't know anything about software and just wasn't a business, account department. They, business analyst, we were so worried about the customer side, that the phone would ring and our network was shut down. Usually, connect the internet to our corporate networks to get to files and stuff, all of a sudden, nobody could get into the network. It's like, oh, you get it, you get it. Michelle: You know what's happening, right? Jack: We started calling people in other offices, what's going on, you get in, no, nobody could get in. It's like oh, our network is down. Next thing you know, few of them, was over the phone rings, the guy picks up and all the colour leaves his face. And three minutes later, he picks up, he grabs his stuff and says, hey guys, nice meeting you. I was just fired. And he basically picks up his stuff and leaves. And that's it. And I was like, what you mean that's it? Like, again, Germany, if somebody fires you, they have to give you three months, -- Michelle: Three months. Jack: Three months notice. James: I thought it was 12 months notice. Michelle: Yes, so then you can actually train your replacement. Jack: Train your replacement and so on and or least have to pay for three months, some company say go home, but they have to pay for three months. Here, you're off and they gave him I think of four weeks severance if they signed something that they wouldn't sue the company. So and then during the course of the day, a whole bunch of people that I knew were let go. And I was sweating bullets, obviously, you know, we both were sweating bullets, because obviously, we work -- Michelle: And at that point, I had joined actually Jack's immigration, you know, files and paperwork because we figured, okay, there are very few people trying to emigrate from Germany. And there's so many more coming from south of the border, that stuck on Jack's application. And so we were both, you know, on his paperwork. Jack: So if I would have lost that job, we would have 60 days to find another job or leave the country. So at that moment, we realized, okay, this is, we're so breaking replaceable here, we're just a number in this big wheel of 7000 people. And after the day only 6000 people were like, okay, we got it, we got to do something else. We don't like it. After five and a half in an industry, you're almost like pigeonholed in that industry. I didn't want to stay for the rest of my career in that industry. So we wanted to get out. And we didn't know how to do that we just looked around. And after a few months or weeks of looking, we came across real estate, tried all kinds of different things, but couldn't get anything to work until we came across land flip. Michelle: And I think the land flipping thing was even, like falling forward. Jack: Yes, like pure coincidences, just like -- Michelle: We're looking into taxing and taxing you know, taxing investing. And I had gone up to somewhere in Northern California to a taxing option and stumbled upon, you know, a piece of land, a lady that owned a piece of land and we auction it off. And we're like, oh my gosh, you know, how could we do something like this? But instead of waiting until an auction happens, you know, how can we get to people much, much sooner. And because if she's a, you know, an owner of vacant land and wanted out, there must be other people. Jack: So we started sending direct mail to owners of real estate who have back taxes. And only people that own land, call us back. And -- James: You know what, that is exactly happened to me. I was trying to look for houses and all the people with land call me back. I said I don't want land, I want houses. Jack: There you go, you just missed out on a big opportunity right there. James: Yes, I should have known you guys. Jack: And then one guy had a property, it was worth about $8,000. But he hadn't done it, what's called a percolation test to make sure to put a septic tank in there, to see how the water, how fast the water sinks in the ground and it hasn't passed the septic test. So to him, it was worthless and he was leaving the state and he was wanting to leave. And he's like you guys can have that thing. And it's like, well, how about $400, he's like take it. So we got this thing for $400. And we sold it literally the next day to the neighbor across the street for $4000. James: Wow. Jack: And that became the beginning -- Michelle: And that's because our negotiation skills sucked. We were, the neighbor shows up Jack: And they just offered 4000 and we said, yes. Michelle: We were ecstatic, you know. Jack: Instead of like negotiating, we're just like -- James: You were like 10 times more, that's it, done, right? Jack: Right. And then the next deal was 10,000, the next deal, babe then we got to deal with like 21 properties for $30,000 that we sold for over $100,000. And then all of a sudden things started working. And then we also realize that most people that want to get rid of these properties don't actually even own property taxes. So now we go after all the general land and we generated millions of dollars, and we started doing this part-time then. Then Michelle quit her job because she was on the visa, started this full time. And then in March of 2003, I got, we got the green card. And then a few months later we felt comfortable. Michelle: I retire again. Jack: Retire, exactly. James: So my wife styles me. Jack: Then so in October of 2003, we quit our job, but it just we stumbled into that, bonded, built it up. And then for several years, we put the blinders on and all we did was land flipping. We only put our head up when the market crashed and everyone around us was losing money and we're still making lots of money. And then that's when we started buying single families and then later apartments. Michelle: Because we could buy houses here for forty, fifty thousand dollars, you know, with five grand in repairs and rent them for anywhere between $900 to $1100. James: Yes. Michelle: So you know, it made sense. And we had all the cash profits, you know, from the land business, because that land business actually, we're able to grow it very rapidly to almost an eight-figure business. You know, the first year we did about 60 deals, the second year, we did about 120 deals, 130. Jack: The third deal, 3800 deals. Michelle: Because we use them, we figured out a way to flush a lot of these properties. And by using auctions. So we used to have big live auctions, you know, we advertise on TV, radio, billboards, periodicals, online flyers. And get like 600 people to a room here in the Phoenix Convention Center, and sell them in one day 250, 200 to 250 parcels. And so we were quickly able to scale that and -- Jack: Build a bigger operation then, with like 40 full-time people. At the auction days, we had 120 people work for us, it was a big operation and we built them. And then we use those profits to then get into the forever cash market meaning buy, put asset allocation, as I call it, take the money we made and roll it over into something that brings cash flow for the rest of our lives. Now we have like 50, completely free and clear rental properties, which now have quadrupled in value. And we still own. James: That's awesome. Awesome. It's very interesting on how you stumble upon doing yellow letters. So that's how, I mean, I was looking for houses. And I believe I look at tax lien lease, if I'm not mistaken, people who didn't pay tax because most of the people who have an empty land, they don't want to pay the tax, right? Jack: Right. James: Because I think there's no cash flow, there's nothing coming. So Jack: Exactly. James: So many calls coming back, I was surprised at the number of response, people calling, but was calling all for empty land. And I say, I'm not going to buy that. So but looks like you guys monetize that I, I should have known that. Michelle: And you know, and even there, it's like in our countries, there's no way that you're going to lose your property over for taxes. But here in the US, you do, you know, the tax lien foreclosure method or through the tax [inaudible 0:25:16]. So those are opportunities that perhaps we were able to really, you know, hold on to because neither of our country's -- Jack: We would like, it blows away that people would even let these properties go for taxes, it was a perfect opening for us. And yes, so we monetize it in two ways. We learn, we wholesale them, we wholesale them. And we still do that, we just sold one week, actually two last week and, I don't know, every week there are sales. And we wholesale them, basically we buy something for $2,000 and go sell it for 10, that's not a bad profit, right? James: Absolutely. Jack: You can live off that. And plus, they're very affordable these properties. Or what we also do is we sell a seller financing. So a couple of months ago, there was one particular deal I want to highlight, is we bought the property for $5,000, an empty lot here in the city of Phoenix. And we sold it for $64,000 with a $6,500 down payment. So if you do the math, we paid five for them, and we got 6,500. So we got all ready -- Michelle: Our money is back. Jack: The moment we sell the property, our money is back. And now for the next 20 years, we get $500 a month and we'll make over $112,000 total on a property that we have zero money in, the moment we sold it. James: That's awesome. That's awesome. So let's walk through the land, the best land flipping strategy. Right? Jack: Okay. James: Because you guys have done it many times, right? So first is where do you get the list of landowners? What the, where's the best place to find? Michelle: So there are three possible places, we are still in love with a more difficult one. Because the harder it is for me, the harder it is for everyone else. James: Correct. Michelle: So there are places like Rebel gateway or Agent Pro, where you can get lists. And I think these two -- Jack: Lists services. Michelle: List services that basically, Jack: Online lists services, James: Lists source, right? Is it list source or -- Jack: List source or logic or agent pro 24/7.com. There's a whole host of different websites. James: What kind of list should we look for? Jack: We're looking for land lists, ones with value James: Other criteria, right? Jack: Yes, land, the other criteria is that the land value is below $100,000. Typically, because we found that to be our sweet spot, now you can go up above, but then your response rates are going to drop. [inaudible27:41] the pay for these properties just skyrockets and so on. But you can do those deals like we have a student the other day that made $192,000 flipping a deal that he put on the contract for much more than we usually put the properties under contract for. It went for 80 and he sold then for, what is that, close to 270 or something or 300. And then he made his offer to closing costs 192,000. But usually beyond that, we like out of state owners, but they don't have to be out of state. So there's a couple of other criteria. Then once you get that list, -- Michelle: You send them you know, you send them a letter and you can either you know printing stuff and stamped and lick all your envelopes and your letters. Or you can send it through a mailing house if you want to outsource that and send out letters and just hold on to your seat because you're going to get -- James: You're gonna get a lot of calls. Michelle: A lot of calls. Jack: Right, you're going to get a lot of calls, exactly. We did, for example, yes, when you send out these letters also, so we don't use the yellow letter, we've developed our own letter and split tested that hundreds of times until we got it to a point where we could not improve the performance of it anymore. And so our letter sometimes, there are a few counties where you get lower response rates, but usually, you get at least a four or five, six percent response rate. And it can go as high as 15 to 20%. James: So let's say now someone calling you, say I will land to sell, can you buy from me? What are the things you look for, to see whether you want to take down their number and follow up with them? Jack: First thing is motivation. Michelle: Yes. Jack: Because almost any kind of land sells, it's just if you get it cheap enough. Now, having said that, there are certain areas, certain pockets that we don't buy. I mean, there are areas in Arizona, where its land, an acre of land is worth $500, that's not worth pursuing. So the value needs to be there. So we typically don't just go below $100,000. We also start above 10,000. So that we have, -- Michelle: So you don't get crap. Jack: So you don't get crap. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So good language here. So you gotta get you together, you don't get junk land. James: Thanks for being nice. Jack: Yes, we have that ongoing, she's the foul mouth in the family. Michelle: Hey, you throw me under the bus. Jack: So then you, yes, you sent out these letters, I thin I forget the question. James: The question is, once they call, what are the criteria -- Jack: You asked them a few questions, you go through a list of questions that we created the script for and asked like if there's early access, if there is utility to the properties, and none of those things is a deal-breaker, they just determine how much you ultimately going to offer for property. James: Got it. And how do you determine what you gonna offer? Jack: Comparables, you run for market comparables similar to houses plus there are a few extra ways, like for example, particularly in rural areas, there might not be comparables of the same size. So if you're looking at five acre parcel, and you only have like 10 and 20 acre parcels, and there's no other five acres to sold or listed, you gotta adjust for size sometimes. So basically, a 10-acre parcel is listed or sold for $30,000. Well, five acres, not automatically worth 15, it's more worth a little bit more, because in rural areas, the smaller the parcel, the higher the price per acre. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So you get down, it's like the other way around, the bigger you go, the more kind of volume discount you get on the acreage. So going from 20 to 40 is not a doubling, it's more like a one and a half times in value. James: Got it. Jack: So 20 is, so the value over 20 years because of comparable shows you that's $40,000 and an 80 is not a 20 to 40 or 40-acre parcel is not $80,000. It's more like $60,000. So there's kind of you can adjust for those things. But the nice part is we buy our properties for five to 25 cents on the dollar. So that's the key to this entire thing. Because when you buy at 10, 15, 20 cents on the dollar, you can be off in your analysis and still make money. And you can make money by selling the reseller of financing and getting a down payment that pays for the property. And you have so much margin of error and so much offer in there that it's almost impossible and I'm not saying it is but it's almost impossible to screw up. James: Yes, yes. And what tool do you use to find those comparables? Jack: We use, we go on Zillow, we go on Redfin, we go on realtor.com, we go on landwatch.com, the same free websites, because I ideally go on the MLS, but the MLS only has, doesn't have all the land is allowed land it sells like owner to owner. And also even if you have access to the MLS, we do deals from Hawaii to Florida. Our students do deals out of the country, you usually only have access to the MLS in one little pocket. So it's impossible to almost have access to the MLS all over the country. Michelle: And it's relatively easy to do the comparable analysis we develop, like our own proprietary software that basically connects through you know, to Zillow, Redfin and all these services. So when I'm at a record, you know, and I'm looking at it immediately it populates for me, you know, whatever comparables. And if it's a little bit, you know, more, if it takes a little bit longer for me to do that, it's maybe eight to 10 minutes, you know, to look up a record elsewhere, specifically, like if it's an info lot, and it's completely built out, you kind of have to like back into the value of the land by figuring out, you know, what are the average, you know, prices in homes in this area? What is the average square foot? How much would it take a builder to, you know, building your house and, and kind of that way back into the value by -- Jack: So we build five methods to the value of the thing, not less, not the least is actually assessed value, any counties the assessed value as a relationship to the market value. And if you can prove over the first 10, 20 analysis that you do that this relationship is reliable, and you can just use the assessed value too for evaluation. Michelle: In a particular county. Yes. James: So you have to pay property tax on all this land, right? Do you try to flip it within the year so that you don't pay property taxes? Jack: As a matter of fact, the way most of our students are doing this is that they don't actually ever buy the property. What they do is that they put the property on a contract and then go market the property right away, and then either do an assignment or do it what's called a double closing, where they use the same day transaction where they buy it and sell it both in the same day. And the buyer brings up all the funds that pays everyone. So -- James: That's a wholesaling technique, right? Jack: It's a wholesaling technique, James: Yes, like in houses, that's what -- Jack: Exactly it's same, the same technique just that we use land for it. And the nice part about land is there's no tenants, no toilets, no termites, there's no repairs. There's no you don't have to show anyone the property. Michelle: James and in the competition -- Jack: Is almost none. James: That's why so many people call me. Jack: Somebody on this podcast just told us that he walked away from owning land because he didn't know -- James: I know. You know, I was thinking that time why are these people selling all their land. I mean, there must be some business here. But I was so busy looking at houses, right. And I thought… Jack: Right and that's the normal thing. So there's almost no competition. And for the last 12 years, we have done this entirely, virtually we have not looked at a single piece of land ourselves. James: Yes. Jack: Google Maps, Google Earth, you can see it all, you don't, Google Street View, you can just drive by your lot, take pictures. And it's all there, no reason to get dirty and dusty out there. Michelle: And that's another thing that I think I want to add in terms of like how simple it is. And now that we've like perfected our system, how predictable it is, you know, is that when we started looking into real estate, because we're both not from here, we had no clue completely clueless about construction, about estimating repairs for kitchen or bathrooms, for flooring, for roofing, we had no idea. And you don't have to deal with any contractors, any, you don't have to deal with any of those headaches that usually you have to deal with improve property when you're dealing with land. So that's something else we forgot to mention. Jack: And that's actually why we also, the main reason why we didn't jump from that multifamily right away, but we took the bridge of single families because we first needed to learn the details of how much does it cost to rehab a kitchen and the bathroom, and the flooring and windows and things like that. We didn't want to tackle a $10 million project first. We wanted to go, start small, so we bought some rental houses with their own money so if we make mistakes, it costs us money and not our investors. And little by little we then learned and after realizing that we can manage those also remotely because our houses are in three different markets; Phoenix, Cleveland, Omaha and an even though new houses in Cleveland, I just hold a show last week. I may have a few houses that I couldn't even find anymore because I haven't, the last time I saw them was like eight years ago, and they spit out cash flow every month. The property management companies who charge them, everything is good. So after that experience was like we're ready for a step up and now buy the bigger buildings and manage them. And we can also do that remotely. James: Okay, that's awesome. So I'm thinking why did I miss this opportunity, right? And I think the answer to my question was, I do not know who to sell to. So how did y'all solve the problem? How do you go to market, okay, today you get land, how do you go and find the seller? Jack: So initially, we started with eBay and newspapers and then we figured out this big land auctions. But the big land auction stopped working about 2007, 2008. Michelle: And started doing online auctions. Jack: And then we started doing online auctions, we shifted, started everything online. So since about 2008, the middle of 2008 now, we have been pursuing and we have been selling all our land online through websites like Craigslist, through Zillow, through MLS. If you own the property, if you have a paragraph in it, it's just that you're allowed to market it. You can even a property if you own it, it's easy to sell it on the MLS anyway, if you don't own it, you can have a paragraph in your contract which we have, that allows you to market this then you can put it off to the brokerlessMLS.com for $99 goes on the MLS. Again, but in other, this land specific websites like land watch, landfliprealtor.com again, land of America and the biggest one that is right now driving the most traffic for us and everyone else is the Facebook marketplace. James: So they are people looking to buy land from people? Jack: Oh, lots of people like -- Michelle: Facebook marketplace and Facebook groups land, land groups. Jack: Yes, Facebook land groups. Yes, there's a big market. I mean, we focus on three kinds of land. Number one [inaudible 0:38:34] lots, can sell immediately to a builder. Number two, the lots in the outskirts of town, right, if this is the city right on the outskirts of the city, that's where we still buy land because it's in the path of growth. Cities like San Antonio, cities like Austin, cities like Dallas, cities like Phoenix, cities like LA, like Denver, all over the country, they're growing, their growing infill. They're there. They're growing in the outskirts of town we're there and there are two ways and the third way is we're focusing on larger acreage in the more rural areas. And that is for the multi-billion dollar market off RV, ATV's, hunters, campers, how would you love to have a 40-acre ranch out into the hills of East Texas, right? Wouldn't that be beautiful? James: Yes. Absolutely, Jack: Yes. And there's millions of people that are looking for that. And then we put the one on top because we get so cheap. If you offer those properties with seller financing, they sell very quickly. Michelle: Or a discount -- Jack: Or discount or market value, wholesale, there is price, will advertise it's a good property, it sells very quickly. And for example, one of our students just posted something that they put, they put an ad on the Facebook marketplace and within 24 hours that has 4250 people look at it and comment and message them. And obviously, they had to take the ad down and had multiple offers on the ads in one day. Now that's not necessarily typical, it might take a few weeks for the property to sell. But there are buyers with it's a b2c market right, we're the business to the consumer market. And the end consumer buys a lot of these lots and the [inaudible40:18] lots are B2B to the builders. Michelle: Yes. James: And how do you check the entitlement of the land? What is it zoned and all that? Jack: There's another company, Michelle: Yes, so you go through a title company, make sure titles free and clear. Jack: There are title companies that we use are not the same companies, different department that we use when buying a $10 million apartment complex than when we buy for it for a $30,000 piece of land. Obviously, the cost is different because they charge us a minimum cost, which is usually anywhere between $700 and $1200 a deal. But if you're about to make $50,000 on there, you can pay $800 and then make 14,200, still okay. James: What about land, which has a utility or going to get utilities, is that much higher price than? Jack: Usually it is and usually it's already, Michelle you can. Michelle: Go ahead. Jack: Usually, it's already in the assessed value included, occasionally it's not because the assessors like a year or two behind. But it's definitely already when you run your comparables, it's already in the market because that word is out and then other properties in the market are going to be listed higher, which tells you, okay, or listed or sold higher, which shows you the market value is higher. So your offer is going to be higher and the seller is going to be happy to accept it. And you make more money in the process. Michelle: And it's much more attractive to buyers too. Jack: And it sells quicker. Yes. James: Yes. So I can see people like me doing this, right, because I already have done the yellow letter marketing, I know all the languages and you know all that. But so anybody can do that, right? It's a simple business, which makes a lot of money. And you are basically bridging the gap between people who need the land versus marketing to their direct seller who is in a distressed situation or who just want to get out from. Most of the time they inherited the land, they don't want to pay tax and they just get rid of it. Jack: Looks like you talk to a few of them. James: I did, talk to a few of them. A lot of them said hey, you know, my mom gave me and she died and now I have to pay property tax on it. And can you buy it or not? Jack: Exactly right. Michelle: So you're helping them and then you're helping your buyers too. And I think the how quickly you sell the property has a lot to do with how you market the property, how what kind of listing you create, you know. There's a lot of crap where you just show a piece of dirt and no, you need to dream it, you know, you have a catchy headline. I mean, you have to understand a little bit of marketing and copy and grabbing people's attention and so on and so forth. But nothing that you can't learn. James: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And what do you think? I mean, you have a property software on it, right? What problem does it solve? Michelle: So what that does is, so back in the day, when we were starting, and we were doing in just a few deals, you know, we could manage to keep our stuff, you know, on paper, on an Excel spreadsheet. But the moment we basically started really scaling this, you know, at the point that we started doing the auctions, we could no longer continue using Excel spreadsheets, we really needed you know, a CRM. And not just a CRM to keep track of our buyers and our sellers, but to keep us organized in our process flow. From the moment that the mailing went out to the inbound call being received to are we ready on the status where we've done research and ready to send an offer, has the offer come back, accept it and we sent this out to title escrow, is it back? Is it ready to be put into the catalogue for the auction, you know, for sale? And so it basically it's a process deal flow from beginning to end for land specifically. Jack: And we build the software in-house that guides you along step by step through the process of buying a property, keep them organized, like statistics, as tax, there is a built-in buyers website, seller's website, calculator for the numbers and things like that. James: So why do you need like, you know, like you said, you have like 15 staffs, right, you have the CRM, what function does the staff do? Jack: The staff does the work, I mean, the CRM organize to work for you, but somebody needs to put in the data. And somebody really needs to press the buttons and do the -- Michelle: And somebody needs to pick up the calls from the buyers. Like we have a lady that is just in charge of that as of this position, basically, there are other people making sure that the phone rings and she's just answering them. Jack: But having said that, this is us, right, we want to spend our time with our 11-year-old daughter travelling the world. We want to spend our time focusing on apartment complexes and not focusing but spending our time, we love learning right and looking at complex deals and things like that. So after building our land business to the level that wanted to build it, we started putting a team in place of it. Having said that, we have many students that run one of them, at the top of the head, I think of one of them is also a coaching organization. He is on track this year to do 120 deals alone with one assistant with one virtual assistant. So the thing is, because it's simple because you don't have to rehab anything, because if you don't have to do anything like that, he can do a, he can do 120 deals just as a two-man or a man and woman, kind of show. And so you don't need a big staff is a point, we have a staff of like somebody picks up the phone calls, answer them they, you can outsource everything. So we use a mailing and a call center to take the phone calls, we use a mailing house to send out the letters. So what we have inhouse is somebody does the deal analysis to figure out what the properties are worth, and somebody who team of two people that prepare the listings and go sell the properties. Anything else you don't really need, anything else you can do, you can outsource. Michelle: And documentation, unless you like to work with documents, paperwork. Jack: But all of that is electronic. Again, it comes in we have buyers signed by DocuSign. We have, we scan things, we put it on to Dropbox, we use different files. We attach them to our CRM and stuff. But it doesn't require a lot of people to do this, which makes it even more profitable. James: Yes, yes. I mean, I think you've sequence it very nicely so that you can scale gracefully and you can have your own time too, awesome. Jack: Probably the biggest thing I think that this business because there's no competition and as you said the sellers have people that are, there are people that inherited this property, they're not getting 25 letters a week, like the hospitals. They're getting nothing a week, so when your letter comes in and when you make that offer, we sent the offer by mail to them, we give them 10 days to actually accept the offer. Then when we buy it, we get a contract and we have three months or four months or six months, whichever we want to close on it. So it destresses the entire thing. That means we can design this business around our lives. And so the life designing with a life -- Michelle: Retrofitting it into the business, Jack: Yes, determining when we have free time. So it's truly a business that can be done based on everyone's work schedule and in full time can be designed such that you work with around the things that are important in your life. James: So does it still work now in this economic cycle? Jack: It's actually right now is the best market that we have seen in probably 15 years. Michelle: Yes. James: Why is that? Jack: Because the market is up so it means that buyers are, still buyers will, the sellers will always be there. James: Sellers always be there, yes. Jack: There's always going to be people that inherited the property and don't want it anymore. But the buyers are right out there, right now out there in the market. They're positive, they're upbeat, they want to buy these properties. They want to take them up, take their RV's up there. Michelle: Ride their RTV's. Jack: Ride their RTV's, spilled something on it so the properties are flying off the shelves, and probably the big right now our properties and our students' properties, we see the highest margins that we've probably seen since we teach this. James: Awesome, awesome. Michelle: We have people that are doing this that are you know, stay at home moms, single moms to Rob, who's a dentist, he no longer is a, well, he will always be a dentist, I guess. But he sold his practice because, you know, 10 months into the land flip he's like, I don't need to be behind the chair anymore. And now his wife who is also a dentist is looking to sell her practice as well, to people that are having a job still in parallel because they, you know, they are already 30 something years in it. And they're like they have just one more year for their pension. So they don't want to go back and are doing it in parallel. I mean, we have -- Jack: It's across the board. Michelle: It's across the broad, from all works of life. James: Yeah, I can see anybody doing this, right? It doesn't take a lot of time and effort, not like house flipping or even rentals or… Michelle: Yes, in the house flipping world, you get a call from a seller and he says I'm interested. I mean, you better meet him at the property, like within a few hours, because you're going to have two or three people that are chasing the same house. James: Yes, yes, yes. That's what happened to me. I missed out on the land flipping, I went house flipping, life has become so busy. So coming back to the next level commercial asset, not the next level. I mean, the other commercial asset class that you guys are doing, which is multifamily, right. And you said you're doing it so can you explain that to me why you're doing that? Jack: Yes, we're doing that for long term generational wealth. So in other words, right now we do syndicate deals. So we have some deals that we make very good money, but and we have our assets and our paid-off properties. But so we wanted to take the next step in complexity, the next step and leverage the next step in personal growth. So we -- Michelle: Exactly, I think our investing has really followed our own personal journey, you know, of development and growth. So Jack: Right, so one of the things, so we started buying these properties. And the first one, we realized, we syndicate it with our investors. And then the second one, the first few we syndicate investors. As a matter of fact, the first one we came in as a junior partner. So we raised the thing, the guy that couldn't raise all the money. And the moment he was about to lose this deal and he basically said, like, if you guys raise half of the money, you get half of the deal, which is obviously a great, great deal. I've never come across that. Michelle: And we're gonna learn how to do it, as he has been doing this for many years. I'm like, that sounds like a perfect situation. Jack: But we also needed to put in $80,000 in escrow deposit, which we could have lost. So it was, he asks for something and he gave something, was a great deal. So we came in, we ended up raising 60% of the money. And doesn't matter, we didn't get more than 50% of the deal. We got in we learned a ton and then we started doing this on our own. And the first few deals like there was just, we have a lot of income, but we have like your cash availability is not always $3 million, right? So we basically looked at it as like we needed $3 million. Let's put some money in ourselves and let's raise the rest through syndications. So we did a syndication for the last few deals. And at some point of time, we might transition into doing deals without investors, the reading hold on for the long term, 10, 20, 30 years, and then our daughter can potentially then inherit and she can keep them or sell them and upgrade them and so on. But in essence, it's a way to, what attracted us to it over the single families is that there's another layer of management, another layer of separation between us and the actual issues on the problem. Michelle: Yes, because now all of a sudden, you know, when you're looking at 100 doors at a time, and that scale allows you to have you know, on the ground, a full time, you know, leasing person, a full-time person for repairs or maintenance. Another one that is turning units around, you know, we have the regional director with, you know, with the property management. And so for us, it's really a lot of asset management, but not the everyday thing of like, would you approve, you know, the repair on a toilet or on this, small things-- Jack: Which, today, I got two more in our single families because they have an authorization limit of $500 on me there because I don't trust them with more. So on a single family, so everything over $500 goes to me, which is literally something three or four things a week that happen especially in summer when it's hot, and AC breaks and so on, that are just like driving me crazy. Because every single time it's like they don't give you the information you need. They don't give you the details you need, you have to jump on the phone call, you have to email back a few times. They don't follow the instructions and how to submit it versus when you operate on a larger property, you can distance, you're removed from these things. You get a status report, you can dive in with your expert partner on the deal, I mean, the regional manager into it. And more than anything, the other thing we realized is you very well know, you can force appreciation and you can force value increase rent, which on the single-family house, you can just, you just cannot do. Michelle: Yes. And elevation is not based on the income but it's fixed but based on other properties. James: Yes, yes I always say that you can build a house, painted with gold, on real gold but the value is still going to be following the other houses surrounding it. Jack: Exactly. James: Are you guys using the depreciation from multifamily to offset the active income on your land? Jack: Yes. Of course, yes. Big time. I mean we -- Jame: That's double right. Jack: We have done on all the units we have, we have done the cost segregation study, and it is literally. Michelle: It shows a lot of the profits from the land flipping even from the educational business, you know, it's a very purpose-driven business for [inaudible 0:54:03] and it throws a nice chunk of cash. And I'm like, we need to, you know, protect that. And so we're, it feels like, you know, with apartment investing, we get to have the cake and eat it too, in terms of, you know, getting the cash flow in. Jack: We get cash flow, we get income, any cash flow, we get appreciation and we get the tax benefits that wipes out almost the entire income of the other things that we do. So it's a it's like a dream come true. Yes. James: Yes. So you want to consider real estate professional, not because of the land, but because of that single-family homes? Jack: Because of really everything I mean, Michelle: That's all we do. James: If you do just land, are you considering real estate professional? Jack: Yes, the land is real estate. As a matter of fact, I always say that when somebody says I've never dealt with land, only do houses. I said like, it's actually I said, it is actually an incorrect statement. Because you have never bought a house -- James: Without the land? Jack: What you buy is the land and the house on it. James: Yes, correct. Jack: That's truly a land transaction that had a house on it. The legal description of the property is not the house, it doesn't say it's a four-bedroom, three bath house, no, you're buying this lot, lot number 23 with whatever it happens to be on it. And what is on it is a luxury house or a dump is just defines the value differences. But so with a real estate professional, doesn't have to be defined by analysis, or commercial, or you can be land too James: Got it, got it. So let's go to a bit more personal side of it. So no technicals? So why do you guys do what you do? Michelle: I think for me, you know, in the beginning, it was about us having freedom of money, time, you know, relationships. And right now, it's about freedom of purpose, you know. It has you kind of like, you know, when you're struggling, somebody is listening to this, they're struggling, or they have a job they hate or whatever, the very first thing that you look at is how can you take care of your immediate family? When you have that taken care of, then you start looking at, okay, how can I, you know, start, you know, helping them my church or helping in my community or helping on a much, much larger scale. So for me, you know, a lot of my, you know, what drives me right now, and my purpose and my why is to become a mentor and a leader. You know, for other women to start investing in real estate, to start, you know, having their money work for them, for example, and set an example, you know, I want to be a hero for my daughter. And I want her to also grow into a lady that you know, knows how to manage your finances, that is very comfortable with investments, whether small or large and so on. So, Jack: For me, along the similar lines, I remember the year 2007, when we were and we had accomplished our first major, big financial goal, which was a certain number, I feel everyone has their number and goal in mind. And we had just moved into a gorgeous, semi-custom home that we designed from scratch up and all of a sudden, we're like, you reach those goals, and you almost like fall into a hole. And we fall in that hole because you expect to be like all candy and rainbows and everything and unicorns, but actually the quite opposite of that. But it's like for a moment you celebrate and then you're like, what now, right? So we basically sat down and was like, okay, so we can sit down now and we can go retire in essence, we can go sit down, we can do nothing. But we realized, for example, there's a charity in Michelle's home country Honduras, that we said we could go work in charities, in charitable work. But we realized, we're really very good at getting businesses to a profitable stage, we're good at kind of creating money, Michelle: That's kind of like our genius. Jack: And so that we are not the person that's going to live in the Honduran in rain forest jungle and feeding the poor, so but it's close to our heart. So why don't we stick to what we love doing Michelle: Our strength. Jack: So that we generate the money that we can be more impactful in those kinds of things. And as a side thing, I love real estate, I mean, I don't see myself not doing real estate ever. I mean, I hate it the entire the IT industry. I'm not personally involved in the continuous development of our software, because I'm kind of scarred from that time in the IT industry. I get involved into the what the vision is of it, but, and then we have a great guy that drives the implementation of these things. But we focus on deals, we focus on and if I can focus deals for the rest of my life and opportunities then I'm a happy camper, it's just what I love doing. So and it throws off money and that allows us to help more people, that is awesome. Michelle: And be transformational in the way, you know, and the way we treat our investors and the way that you know, people that want to participate in our deals. Jack: So the teaching side of things, we started the teaching side of things also kind of like almost like a mission kind of the point of view that not that we need the rest to save the world. But there are so many people out there that do real estate either the wrong way or that they don't know that there's an easier and simpler way that you can do real estate. And learn and grow build the confidence and capability in your life that then allows you to do whatever the heck you want to do afterwards that we feel like I was called to teach this and show the land flipping part of things to people. So they can also get on their own feet. And we have had years where we lost money in that business where we put it on their own pocket for and it was still fulfilling because we see the difference that it makes in the people's life. So we were committed and our core values are to be transformational. Michelle: Yes. And it's not just walking a person through a deal by really sculpting someone's spirit you know, someone's confidence, someone's courage through the process of a real estate deal. So it's incredibly rewarding work for sure. James: Okay, okay. So why don't you tell about how to find you guys. How can the listeners find you? Jack: Easiest way to find us on the land flipping side is to go to landprofitgenerator.com and you can also go to www.orbitinvestments.com, there's a link over to the land flipping side. There's a couple of other links on too. James: Okay. Michelle: I'm on Facebook Michelle Bosch, Instagram michelleboschofficial. Jack: And again on the land site we since we don't teach the apartment complex things, you do that. We have no educational things about that, we just, we do syndicate with investors. We do probably similar deals and but on our website like all the educational things all about land flipping. So we have a Facebook group called Land Profit Generator Real Estate Group. So everything we do on the land side is called land profit generator. So you look for land profit generator, you find us and orbit investments is more like the overall holding company above everything else with links to all the different pieces that we do. James: Awesome. Well, Jack and Michelle, thanks for coming in. I learned so much and I learned what I didn't miss too, but I'm sure the listeners learned a lot of things from today's podcast. Thank you for coming in. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, absolutely. Jack: Looking forward to seeing you at the next mastermind. James: Absolutely. Thank you Michelle: Thank you, bye.

In this episode, we embrace the creepy with author Melissa Erin Jackson. We talk about her new book "The Forgotten Child," traditional vs. self-publishing, and Pitch Wars. When Diana's computer freezes Michele snaps an epic picture as we descend into randomness. Support our show through our sponsor, Winc at trywinc.com/wwwpodcast 

How to Price House Offers (JJ 689) Transcript: Jack:                      Jack and Jill here. Jill:                          Hi. Jack:                      Welcome to the Jack Jill Show, entertaining real estate investment talk. I'm Jack Butala. Jill:                          I am Jill Dewitt, broadcasting from sunny Southern California. Jack:                      Today, Jill and I talk about how to price house offers. There's a couple ways, and we're gonna make this brief and cut really to the chase in this episode about how to sent out a successful offer campaign to a group of offers or neighborhood that you selected, so that you can achieve the same numbers that we do for every 2,500 houses that we send offers to. We buy a house, and we flip it for a $20,000 to $40,000 bucks. We don't clean it up, we don't renovate it, we just sell it to the guy that's gonna do that. Jill:                          I hope I have stuff to add, Jack. This is really all you, so here's what I wanted to do on this show, please. This is all you, so I'm gonna come up with questions- Jack:                      Perfect. Jill:                          As you describing things, I'm gonna ask you. Jack:                      Every man's dream. Jill:                          Nice. Jack:                      Oh wait, my woman's got more questions. Let's sit down and have a cup of coffee and answer questions- Jill:                          Talk about it. Thank you. Jack:                      Before we get into it, let's take a question. Here's a question posted by one of our members on the JackJill.com online communities free. Jill:                          And it came from a man. Joe asked, "I've got a guy selling two adjacent partials in Elko County, Nevada. One is 2.5 ... One is a 2.53 acre parcel with a rod running through the middle of it." What about that? Okay. "It looks like there's a build able space on either side," interesting. "Either less try to grab one parcel but not the other, just get them both ..." So what is- Jack:                      So that's the whole question. Jill:                          Like a pole? Jack:                      Let's hold on. This ties exactly, ties exactly into what we're about to talk about. The beginning of the sentence is I've got a guy selling two adjacent properties, so I don't know how he came about this seller. If you sent him an offer, so for us in this deal, we would've sent the guy probably a $500 offer to buy each of his two and half acre properties, in which case if he signed it and sent it back, here's exactly what I would do.                                 Go on to Parcelfact.com, which is full disclosure, a company we own, see if the property looks any good, check it for access, probably do two or three other points of due diligence like does this guy actually own it, pull a property report in Real Quest Pro, bang, bang, bang, it's about four minutes later, and I've made up my decision. I don't talk about rods or try to negotiate the deal. This is where everybody gets hung up in this whole industry. I don't question myself, I don't care 'cause I'm gonna be out $1000 if I'm wrong, which by the way, we've almost done 16,000 deals and I can count on both hands the times I've been wrong about this.                                 So this old adage of get to know the piece of real estate intimately and everything about it so that you can maximize price when you sell it, throw it all away. You're never gonna make dough in land. If you look at every piece of every asset [crosstalk 00:03:11], you talk about your rod, your rod doesn't matter. Even though Joe, you think it does. Jill:                          I am holding back, I am not gonna say it 'cause I know we're E for everyone. Somewhere there's someone driving in a minivan with kids in the backseat- Jack:                      That's right.

WEEK 11 IS HERE!! WE HAVE A TON OF GOOD GAMES THIS WEEK STARTING WITH THURSDAY NIGHT TITANS VS. STEELERS…

Week 10 is upon us and we are near the final stretch of the football season. Time sure flies when…

Dual Escrow Explained (CFFL 583) Transcript:  Jack:                     Jack, Jill here. Jill:                        Hi. Jack:                     Welcome to the show today. In this episode, Jill and I talk about dual escrow explained. Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the LandInvestors.com online community. It's free. Jill:                        Okay. Tom asked, "I've got this deal in California. The property is in a trust. Two trustees, husband and wife. Wife contacted me. She wants to sell. Husband no longer alive." Jack:                     I love how this is written. "Husband no longer alive." Stop. Jill:                        I know. Jack:                     "I have the grant deed certificate of death." Stop. Go ahead. Jill:                        Oh, is that okay? Jack:                     Yeah I like it. Jill:                        Alright. "Is that enough to record the new deed in California? If yes, what should this deed look like? Does the name of the deceased husband still have to be on the new deed? Or should I just attach a copy of the death certificate and the affidavit of death of trustee to the deed with a signature of the one person who is still alive, who is the wife?" Mouthful. Jack:                     So, I can answer this or you can. Jill:                        Go for it. Jack:                     So, this is how you need to think of a trust. A trust is an institution. Think of it as a five gallon bucket that can own property. You as an individual can own property. You're an entity. A LLC is an entity that can own property, just like a trust. So, if a trust owns property, like the dead guy's trust, the dead guy's 1987 trust, that's the entity that's going to convey the property. In fact, people put trusts together so they don't have to go through all this malarkey when someone dies. The trust is just the grantor. So, the trust, no matter who's alive, if the trustee is still alive or not, the trust names trustees after people pass away so that they have execution power for this document. Jill:                        Mm-hmm (affirmative) Jack:                     So, the trust is going to convey the document as it's written. If some person is dead, you don't need to deal with it at all. It's addressed somewhere in the trust, if I'm understanding this question correctly. Whoever the grantee is, the new person who's going to own the property, the dead guy's 1987 trust conveys to Jill K. Dewitt, an individual, and it's over. You don't have to file any affidavits. You don't have to file any of that stuff. Here's what you're confusing it with, Tom. Mr. and Mrs. Smith, a married couple, own a property in California, and Mr. Smith is dead and just Mrs. Smith is there. Jill:                        What happened to him? Jack:                     He died. She killed him slowly. Jill:                        That's what I was wondering. Jack:                     She talked him to death. Jill:                        Oh my gosh, Jack. Jack:                     She nit, nit, nit, nit all day for 45 years and he died. Jill:                        Death by words. Jack:                     He just couldn't get up one day because he just couldn't take it. Jill:                        You've been telling me that it's going to be death by words. Jack:                     Good question, by the way. Jill:                        Thank you. That's a thing now. Jack:                     So, Mrs. Smith is walking around- Jill:                        Mr. Smith just stopped eating purposefully. Jack:                     He fasted in protest. Jill:                        He did. Jack:                     A Mrs. Smith protest. Jill:                        He let his body shut down just to make it stop. Jack:                     Or maybe Mrs. Smith ... Maybe he talked too much,

WEEK 8!! The halfway point of the NFL season is upon us. We are starting to see the teams that…

WEEK 7 picks and predictions are out now! We are almost at the halfway point and things are definitely getting…

WEEK 6 is here and we’re almost at the halfway point of the season! NFL season comes and goes so…

The boys are back in town!!! Apologies for the delay but we’re back!! Weeks 3 and 4 were filled with…

WEEK 2 is officially over (insert crying face)! With another week behind us, your favorite two guys are back to…

Week 1 is in the books!! A lot of low scoring games last week but we think this week will…

FOOTBALL IS BACK AND THE GUYS ARE READY TO GIVE YOU ALL THE INFO YOU NEED TO BE SUCCESSFUL!! PLEASE…

Flirt To Convert II (CFFL 538) Transcript: Jack:                      Jack Butala with Jill DeWit. Jill:                          Hey there. Jack:                      Welcome to the show today. In this episode Jill and I talk about Flirting to Convert. Two. Jill:                          Two. Where the- Jack:                      A lot of years ago we did a show called Flirt to Convert. It was really popular because, I think- Jill:                          It's just funny Jack:                      they want to hear Jill's take on flirting- Jill:                          Thanks Jack:                      to convert, let's just say. Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on LandInvestors.com online community. It's free. Jill:                          Okay. Noam asked, "Hi Everyone. What templates do you chose to work with in order to complete a sale on terms, and where do you get them? For terms deals, I know I need a land contract, promissory note and purchase agreement (is this accurate?) I was going to use Rocket Lawyer or a similar website. Do you recommend going the Rocket Lawyer way? Do you mind sharing your own docs? Do I need to notarize my signature on any of these docs, or only does the buyer? Thank you." Jack:                      All good questions. Jill:                          All good questions. Jack:                      So, the program, the educational program that Jill and I provide on how to flip land which is on LandAcademy.com provides a library of contracts and agreements. They're examples. Jill:                          So you have all ours right there. Jack:                      Do you want to use those verbatim? No. You want to put your own twist on it, and make sure that the specific situation is reflected in there. Jill:                          Right, but the meat's there. Jack:                      Do you want to use Rocket Lawyer? Yeah, I've heard all kinds of good stuff. I've never pulled agreements down from there, but I'll tell yeah, you're doing the right thing here, asking this question on LandInvestors.com because everybody is- I mean there's people all over our group, hundreds of people that do agreements all the time so, someone's going to have a real good, up-to-date answer. We've been using the same agreements for quite some time, and it works for us. So, you're in the right hands, let's say. Jill:                          Exactly. Jack:                      If you have a question, or you want to be on the show, reach out to either one of us on LandInvestors.com. Today's topic, Flirt to Convert, at number two. This is the meat of the show. Jill, I know you have a tremendous amount of experience in sales, even right up to the last 20 seconds. Jill:                          What the heck? Jack:                      Me and the kids joke about it. If she's talking, she's selling us something. I don't even know I'm being sold something. Jill:                          Oh boy. Jack:                      She's selling me on putting her paja- Jill:                          We don't have a thing on you. I need to come up with one about you. Jack:                      She's selling me on putting my pajamas on. Jill:                          That's hilarious. Jack:                      She's selling me on what to eat for lunch today. Jill:                          No. Jack:                      When they were little. It's a compliment. Jill:                          No. Thank you. That's just called good parenting. And picking your battles. Jack:                      That's a good point. When is it sales, and when is it too sales-y, like used car salesmen, or when is it like- Jill:                          That's a good one. Jack:                      Or when is it healthy, helpful? Jill:                          Can I talk now?

Our New JackJill Show - You Tell Us What You Want (CFFL 534) Transcript: Jack:                      Jack Butala with Jill Dewitt. Jill:                          Hi. Jack:                      Welcome to our show today, in this episode, Jill and I talk about our new Jack Jill show. This is all about ... Jill:                          What's coming. Jack:                      What's coming, and what you think the show should be about. Before we get into it, let's take a question, posted by one of our members on the land investors dot com. Online community. It's free. Jill:                          Okay, Allen asks, "is anyone else having problems posting property on land pin?" This is funny. Oops! How'd this get in there? Wow, all right. This is good. I fill out the new listing info and when I click the save button, the website grays out and just says "saving". This is hilarious. I have tried to list this one property four times now and the same thing keeps happening. All right, so we just got a tech support question that made it into our show. So, I'm ... Jack:                      I'm gonna answer it. Jill:                          All right, tech support Jack. Go for it. Jack:                      It has to do with how you signed up. And so there's no way you could know this. It happens to like, three people of the ... I think that site has a thousands of people so ... Jill:                          That's hilarious. Jack:                      Please email Erin at land academy dot com if you're having issues. She's the manager of that whole line of business and she'll get you straightened out real quick. In fact, chances are Allen, you're way past. By the time this airs, you know, you'll be all set. Jill:                          It's fixed, that's hilarious. Jack:                      This does bring up a good point though. Jill:                          I think this is really funny, I feel like somebody wanted to get this ... someone's like frustrated and put this in there on purpose. Jack:                      This does bring up a great point, so, and the point is ... Jill and I, we start these lines of businesses like land pan, parcel fact, land crowd fund, land tank, and on and on and on, there's a bunch of them. And, we put a manager at the top of it and that person runs that line like it's their own business. With their own plans, and Jill and I just kind of help out. So, all kidding aside, this kind of just snuck in here and I'm glad it did. Jill:                          I think it's hilarious. Jack:                      It gave us an opportunity today ... Jill:                          To see what's going on in our business. Jack:                      It gave us an opportunity to talk about our business structure and stuff. And we modeled this whole ... built a moat around it. Jill, as Jill calls it, "built a moat around these lines". They're separate companies; after Berkshire Hathaway. That's what they do. He doesn't go to ... You don't go visit the company every day that you own. Especially if you own 50 of them; In fact you probably don't ever go. Jill:                          You can't, it's not possible. Jack:                      Warren Buffet doesn't sit around and talk about Sees Candy. Jill:                          It's even ... Just within your business, you don't spend ... You're not sitting with the accounting people one hour every day, and then the billing people an hour every day, and the customer service people an hour every day. You have to put them in place with the right tools and the right resources and trust them and let them go. Jack:                      And the right manager. Jill:                          Yeah. Jack:                      You have to put the right manager in, and hold that manger accountable. Jill:                          Yep. Jack:                      So there's clearly,

5 Stages of Wealth (CFFL 533) Transcript: Jack:                      Rental neighborhoods, it works very, very well to put in the paper. Jill:                          Okay. Jack:                      To like in a newspaper, actually. Jill:                          Oh, okay. Jack:                      If you're trying to rent a house. Jill:                          Got it. Jack:                      So you can test it that way and, but even long before you even buy it, you put it right in there, and leave out a few of the details, like the APN and things like that, and just see if ... If 50 people call you to rent a house that you haven't bought yet, there's a pretty darn good chance you're gonna be okay. Jill:                          Exactly. Jack:                      Same thing with the sales in Craigslist. Jill:                          Yeah. Jack:                      You'll get an indicator real quick. If two people call you in three weeks, you want to run away. Jill:                          Right. Jack:                      Never have for sale property. Jill:                          Correct. Jack:                      If you have a question, or you want to be on the show, reach out to either one of us on landinvestors.com. Today's topic, the five stages of wealth. This is [inaudible 00:00:46] to the show. This is also a topic I wrote- Jill:                          Yeah. Jack:                      Because I don't think Jill would ever want any part of this. Jill:                          Well, I want to hear what your things are, and then I have something I want to add that what this made me think of. Jack:                      This came up because I wrote the outline the other day for a book that I'm going to release in about three months, called, "Wealth," or, "Your Wealth." I haven't titled it yet, but it's things that I wish as a young ... I'm not a young man any longer, but I wish someone would explain this to me when I was younger. Number one, here's my five, and then Jill's going to hopefully have some stuff to say, and maybe she'll debunk the whole thing. Number one, secure revenue source, i.e., get a job. All right, nothing's gonna happen unless you ... I don't care who you are, or what you are, unless you're a trust fund baby, you've got to secure an ongoing revenue source. In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, trust fund kids [crosstalk 00:01:47] have a built-in- Jill:                          Probably need it even more. Jack:                      They have a built-in revenue source, that's interest income or whatever. So, secure a revenue source, number one. Number two, remove any debt or don't accumulate, better yet, don't take on any unless it's business associated debt and you actually know how it's gonna go. Jill:                          So that's stage two. Jack:                      Number three ... The five stages, yeah. Begin to accumulate equity. There's two ways to do this, save the money, saving money from your revenue source that you have, your job. Or, number two, invest it, and turn it. Number two is how fortunes are made. Number one is how you live a lonely little life of savings. Jill:                          Yeah, right and under your mattress. Jack:                      Yeah. Number four, now you're accumulating- Jill:                          Step four, or stage four. Jack:                      Number four is, start to plan with this accumulated equity for your non-working years, or also known as, retirement. So, now you put your stock [inaudible 00:02:46] away and you're planning your exit. That's a whole stage that gets completely overlooked by the vast majority of people, even wealthy people. And finally, number five, which is my personal favorite, create a legacy revenue stream for people after you're gone. It may be in the form of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation,

When is it OK to Talk About Money? (CFFL 532) Transcript: Jack:                      Jack Butala with Jill DeWitt. Jill:                          Hi Jack:                      Welcome to the show today. In this episode, Jill and I talk about, when is okay to talk about money? And when is it not okay? More specifically, as it pertains to real estate as always. Jill:                          Got it. Jack:                      Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the land investors dot com online community, it's free. Jill:                          Okay. Mike asks, "Anyone have any advice on how to manipulate improvement percent to include properties with well or septic tanks?" Has anyone ever tinkered with this?" I would love to find some properties in some of my areas with old wells I could salvage. It would double the value of the land." Interesting spin he's going on here. Jack:                      Mike, once in a while we get a brilliant question and this. Jill:                          Yeah. Jack:                      Congratulations, you won this month. Jill:                          Thinking about, thinking outside of the box. Jack:                      Here's the thing Jill. The further we get into this Land Investors Land Academy, offers investors, offers academy thing, the more intelligent people keep joining our groups. And so this is brilliant. There's a two part answer. Number one, and I asked part of our staff to memorize this sentence. The data that we have in real quest pro and data tree and everywhere [inaudible 00:01:18] and all the other data sources that we provide is only as good as the assessor and the assessor's cake eaters put in. So man, that would be great to say, "Yep, it's got a well." Jill:                          Silly. Jack:                      Like a whole separate column. If I had my way, I would say there's a whole separate column for septic, a whole separate column for well, for well. It's that important for rural real estate. Jill:                          Right. Jack:                      Unfortunately they don't. So wouldn't it be great though, that said, if the improvement percentage was like fifteen. Like the property's been approved  fifteen percent and that man had had a well on it in every county. That's dreamy data situation. Jill:                          Wouldn't that be great? I mean there really is a category for that on some of our data sources where you kind like check the box that you wanted to pop in. But you're right, I mean a pretty large percentage of the time it's not accurate information. The don't fill it in. Jack:                      So for the record, by the way, the first time I heard improved, "Is the property improved or not?" That was a lot of years ago. What I thought immediately was, "Does it have a house on it or construction?" and that's not what it means. If the property has been improved in any way, like let's say it's part of a subdivision and there's roads and stuff and there's sewer hook ups at the street and all that. That's improved property. And what it really it means is that lenders, lenders sit up in their chairs and say, "Oh, it's improved property, I have an interest in lending you money on it now." Jill:                          Right. Jack:                      I have an interest in lending you money now so that if you default I can own it. But that's a different topic. Jill:                          Right. Exactly. Jack:                      So now, to answer your question Mike. Brilliant question. It would be great if you could somehow [inaudible 00:03:00] find that specialization and buy properties with a well, like a defunct well. Man, you would be off to the races on that financially. In fact, you could talk about how much money you'd make. When is okay to talk about money? Jill:                          That's the [inaud...

Cody and Carl are back with their record predictions, this time they’ll be joined by a special guest and dear…

Land Leases Feed Families for Generations (CFFL 498) Transcript: Jack: Jack Butala Jill DeWit. Jill: Hi. Jack: Welcome to our show today. This episode, Jill and I talk about land leases and how they feed families for generations. Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members. On landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Jill: Okay. Jered asked, "I could use help from my fellow Land Academy peers. My CPA just sent over her LLC's tax return for the first year in the land business. She claims we need to pay taxes on the full profit of our term's deals up front. So if we purchase the land for $2,000 and sold it for $8,000 with payments over five years, she claims the IRS is clear that we need to pay the taxes on the $6,000, the 6k profit up front. With over 25 terms deals, that adds up to way more in taxes owed than revenue generated and would quickly put us out of the land business. We showed her the IRS tax code 453," this is smart, "with the unimproved land exemption but she claims it does not apply for certain reasons. Do any of you pay income tax on just the installment income as it comes, not all up front? Has this been approved by another CPA or am I or my CPA missing something?" Jack: Jered, this is an excellent question and all week I've been saying, we choose the hard questions for a reason. I want you to promise me and I want you to send me a note at jack@landinvestors.com. Promise me that you're gonna go get a new CPA today. Jill: And that's the answer to the question? Jack: I can answer the question. I can get into this in great detail. I've gotten this question over the years. I had a former partner, Park McClusky, quite honestly who had the same problem with his tax person and he solved it by getting another one. It has to do with their- you have two choices on how you file. How you keep books. On an accrual basis and a cash basis and I'm not gonna get into it because I don't want to expose myself from a liability standpoint, but your CPA is wrong. How could you pay money that you haven't made yet? Jill: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's what I think too 'cause what if the guy defaults on January 2? Jack: That's right. Exactly. Jill: That's not. You can't. Jack: So sometimes professional consultants like that are very, very, very academic and brainy. And they are extremely risk adverse and they have their nose in a book to the point where they don't even know what reality is. Jill: Right. Jack: A lot of professors are like that. And this person is wrong. Jill: Right. Jack: If you have a question or you want to be on the show, reach out to either one of us on landinvestors.com. Today's topic, land leases feed families for generations. I love this. Jill's got a beautiful story for us. This is the meat of the show. Jill: So we met this girl, we were at an event, where were we? I can't remember where, were we in Long Beach? I can't remember where we went. Jack: Yeah, exactly. Jill: Okay, it was a big investors group but they got all the investors from all over southern California really together. And they do this like twice a year. So I said, "Come on, Jack, let's go check it out. Let's just see who's here. See what this is all about. It's not just one group. It's all of the groups combined." Jack: I love these, I love going to these events by the way. Jill: You're being sarcastic. Jack: My answer to Jill was, "Oh my gosh, pick me. Can we go to another one of these? I love to talk to people about real estate." Jill: I know, but I drug you anyway. So that was funny. So anyway. So we arrive at this event and well it looks- well here's, this is the way Jack rolls too. So we get to the event, he's gotta eyeball it first and see if we're going in. Jack: That's right. Jill: So we're standing in line and Jack has to kind of peek in the room, do a quick little walk, check out the food and the beverage situation,

Land Leases Feed Families for Generations (CFFL 498) Transcript: Jack: Jack Butala Jill DeWit. Jill: Hi. Jack: Welcome to our show today. This episode, Jill and I talk about land leases and how they feed families for generations. Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members. On landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Jill: Okay. Jered asked, "I could use help from my fellow Land Academy peers. My CPA just sent over her LLC's tax return for the first year in the land business. She claims we need to pay taxes on the full profit of our term's deals up front. So if we purchase the land for $2,000 and sold it for $8,000 with payments over five years, she claims the IRS is clear that we need to pay the taxes on the $6,000, the 6k profit up front. With over 25 terms deals, that adds up to way more in taxes owed than revenue generated and would quickly put us out of the land business. We showed her the IRS tax code 453," this is smart, "with the unimproved land exemption but she claims it does not apply for certain reasons. Do any of you pay income tax on just the installment income as it comes, not all up front? Has this been approved by another CPA or am I or my CPA missing something?" Jack: Jered, this is an excellent question and all week I've been saying, we choose the hard questions for a reason. I want you to promise me and I want you to send me a note at jack@landinvestors.com. Promise me that you're gonna go get a new CPA today. Jill: And that's the answer to the question? Jack: I can answer the question. I can get into this in great detail. I've gotten this question over the years. I had a former partner, Park McClusky, quite honestly who had the same problem with his tax person and he solved it by getting another one. It has to do with their- you have two choices on how you file. How you keep books. On an accrual basis and a cash basis and I'm not gonna get into it because I don't want to expose myself from a liability standpoint, but your CPA is wrong. How could you pay money that you haven't made yet? Jill: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's what I think too 'cause what if the guy defaults on January 2? Jack: That's right. Exactly. Jill: That's not. You can't. Jack: So sometimes professional consultants like that are very, very, very academic and brainy. And they are extremely risk adverse and they have their nose in a book to the point where they don't even know what reality is. Jill: Right. Jack: A lot of professors are like that. And this person is wrong. Jill: Right. Jack: If you have a question or you want to be on the show, reach out to either one of us on landinvestors.com. Today's topic, land leases feed families for generations. I love this. Jill's got a beautiful story for us. This is the meat of the show. Jill: So we met this girl, we were at an event, where were we? I can't remember where, were we in Long Beach? I can't remember where we went. Jack: Yeah, exactly. Jill: Okay, it was a big investors group but they got all the investors from all over southern California really together. And they do this like twice a year. So I said, "Come on, Jack, let's go check it out. Let's just see who's here. See what this is all about. It's not just one group. It's all of the groups combined." Jack: I love these, I love going to these events by the way. Jill: You're being sarcastic. Jack: My answer to Jill was, "Oh my gosh, pick me. Can we go to another one of these? I love to talk to people about real estate." Jill: I know, but I drug you anyway. So that was funny. So anyway. So we arrive at this event and well it looks- well here's, this is the way Jack rolls too. So we get to the event, he's gotta eyeball it first and see if we're going in. Jack: That's right. Jill: So we're standing in line and Jack has to kind of peek in the room, do a quick little walk, check out the food and the beverage situation,

How to Implement Infill Lot Offer Campaigns (CFFL 492) Transcript: Jack:                      Jack Butala with Jill DeWit. Jill:                          Good day. Jack:                      Welcome to our show today. In this episode, Jill and I talk about how to implement infill lot offer campaigns. This is, if you can't tell- Jill:                          It's really specific, I like it. Jack:                      One of my topics, not Jill's. Before we get into it though, let's take a question posted by one of our members on landinvestors.com online community, it's free. Jill:                          What's that supposed to mean? I wouldn't come up with something like this on my own? Jack:                      If it sounds like we're going to talk about something Tony Robinson talked about, I didn't come up with it. Jill:                          If it sounds like really- Jack:                      If it sounds like something Bill Gates would talk about, I probably came up with it. Jill:                          Okay. Fine. All right. Before we get into the HTML discussion about ... Just kidding. Okay. All right. Daniel asked, "I have tried to get a hold of the index maps from a few counties and have come up empty handed. Can anyone shed some more light on who is the best person at the County office to talk to in order to obtain these maps, or any additional information that may be helpful? Thanks." Jack:                      Excellent question Daniel. In fact it's topical, it's perfect to the topic today. So a lot of ... New people in counties don't understand, very frequently, what an index map is. And what an index map is, quite simply, is this. If you picture a map of a county there are certain areas ... When it got all subdivided, there are certain areas where the APN that starts with, let's say, 100 might be in the north east corner. The APN that starts with 200 might be in the south east corner. And it gets mapped out, it's a map that literally indexes the APN scheme based on the numbers. So, depending on where you are in the country, they don't call it an index map, they call it an APN map or a bunch of other stuff. Out west here they do call it index maps, which is why ... That's what we call it. But, let's say that you've talked to 19 people at the county and no one has any idea what you're talking about, here's what you do. This is really the show. This is the show. Jill:                          It's actually funny 'cause it's like ... You know what ... I gotta pause and interject here 'cause, you think you're ... I mean, let's be honest, they're real people. They may not have been there for a long time, they may be filling in for somebody, they may be brand new. They may just have not- Jack:                      They may be dizzy eating cake. Jill:                          They may just be in their own little world and all they do is stamp things 'cause that's all they do, and pass them to the next person. So, it's funny, you call the County and you think you're getting a wealth of information, like a formally trained librarian- Jack:                      Like a library, yeah. Jill:                          Exactly. It's not like the librarian. Sometimes you will find yourself educating the County person who answers the phone. Jack:                      You're interrupting them. Jill:                          Like this. Jack:                      You're interrupting their cake eating experience. Jill:                          Jack, would you stop that. It's not nice. 'Cause of one person. But, no it's not just one, but anyway. So, Jack. Jack:                      So, what do you do when no one knows what an index map is at the place where you're paying your taxes to pay their salary. Jill:                          Oh my gosh, here we go again. Boy. Jack:                      If you don't know what Redfin is,

Down the Pew explores the amazing life stories of people of faith. How does life effect our ideas about God? How does our faith inform our perspe​ctives of our experience? Join us to hear stories of faith from people in small congre​gation​s. Podcasting from Palms Presby​terian Church in Jackso​nville Beach, Florida.