Podcasts about saulsbury

The Bros are Back, and they are in bad shape. Phill has gone blind, Juan has gone deaf, and Luis has been 86'd this week. Cesar makes a return to dispel drinking myths and insights Juan on living with Phill. Juan gives insight on winning Whisky con 2024 Cocktail contest. Phill reflects on sweet Saulsbury kisses. Juan is fresh from Cancun, Shares the new fond love for all inclusive resorts. Why sushi on the beach is a must. Shells out for national turtle day. Finally the Bros try to answer an age old question. How many different turtles can we eat?

The Bros are Back, and they are in bad shape. Phill has gone blind, Juan has gone deaf, and Luis has been 86'd this week. Cesar makes a return to dispel drinking myths and insights Juan on living with Phill. Juan gives insight on winning Whisky con 2024 Cocktail contest. Phill reflects on sweet Saulsbury kisses. Juan is fresh from Cancun, Shares the new fond love for all inclusive resorts. Why sushi on the beach is a must. Shells out for national turtle day. Finally the Bros try to answer an age old question. How many different turtles can we eat?

Caregiving for aging and dying parents can be tough for anyone, but it's even tougher when it forces you to confront longtime family dynamics of abuse. Sociologist Deborah Cohan blurs the lines between academic research on family caregiving and violence, and her own personal story about a father she calls both adoring and abusive.  Her memoir is called Welcome to Wherever We Are: A Memoir of Family, Caregiving, and Redemption. Transcript DEBORAH COHAN: Time is really strange in a nursing home. People are motivated by the mealtimes. Newspaper delivery is listed as an activity. They're just mundane activities in my life or your life, but they become these big events at these nursing homes. When you're there, and you're well, and you're witnessing that, it's really hard to watch and to do time the way they're doing time. BLAIR HODGES: Deborah Cohan knows there's nothing easy about caregiving for a dying parent. She watched over her father as he spent the last few years of his life in a nursing home. Witnessing a parent's decline into dementia is hard enough, but Deborah's situation was especially complicated because it happened after she endured years of emotional and verbal abuse from her father. What's it like to want abuse to stop, but a relationship to continue? Is it possible to forgive someone who can't even remember what they did? Deborah's answers to these questions might surprise you. She draws on her expertise as a sociologist and a domestic abuse counselor to make sense of her own life after her father's death. Her book is called Welcome to Wherever We Are: A Memoir of Family, Caregiving, and Redemption. Deborah joins us to talk about it right now. There's no one right way to be a family and every kind of family has something we can learn from. I'm Blair Hodges, and this is Family Proclamations. A UNIQUE BOOK ON ELDERCARE (1:50) BLAIR HODGES: Deborah J. Cohan, welcome to Family Proclamations. DEBORAH COHAN: Thank you so much for having me, Blair. It's great to be here. BLAIR HODGES: It's great to have you. Deborah, there are a lot of books out there about caregiving for aging parents. There are also a lot of books out there about what it's like to witness and experience abuse in families. But there aren't a whole lot of books that are about both of those things in the same book. You've written a book here about what it means to care for an ageing and ill parent who also happens to have been an abuser. That's how you introduce it. Talk about the decision to write a book like that. It's a unique book. DEBORAH COHAN: Thanks for noticing that. I guess sometimes we write the books we wish existed so we could have them as our own guide, and as an expert in domestic violence, and also as someone who's studied the sociology of families, it made perfect sense for me to create what I call a "braided memoir." These two stories are very much interlocking in the book, and in many people's lives. Even if there's not actual abuse in someone's family, there's so much relatable stuff in the book because of the different complicated dynamics we all find ourselves in just by living in our families. Most families have some complicated dynamics of some sort. I was really trying to help others to think about that, and to think about how these two things that are happening in the culture are really often happening at the same time, which is the complicated family piece, and also the fact that more and more people are involved in some amount of caregiving. And it tends to be gendered, where women tend to be doing it more. BLAIR HODGES: You're a specialist who's studied family violence as well. You say “family violence is a dynamic process. It's not an event or an isolated set of events.” It's an environment and you say it unfolds and takes different shapes, often over years of time. Now in your own personal experience, you've come to see how it can be lodged in caregiving. Talk a little bit about that. DEBORAH COHAN: A lot of times when domestic violence is talked about, especially in the media, we hear about it as an episode, or we hear about it as an incident—sort of an isolated event. What I learned through working with violent men for so many years at the oldest battering intervention program in the country—which is Emerge in Boston—and also working with survivors, is that these things that are referred to as “incidents” or “events” or “episodes,” they are connected experiences. It usually escalates over time. If practitioners and advocates and others in the field, and even just people's friends, can help people to see the connection and help them connect the dots between this episode and then this one—because I talk about how there's connective tissue, if you will. For example, most abusers don't start being abusive by punching someone or strangling them or any of those sorts of things. These things start out in lots of other ways. They get accelerated through time. I think it's important to see this stuff isn't a one-time thing. These things build on each other. SHADOWS IN SHAKER HEIGHTS (3:46) BLAIR HODGES: Maybe take a minute or two really quickly here to give us the broad strokes of your family. Who is this book about? Where are you from? DEBORAH COHAN: Currently I live in South Carolina. But I was born and raised in Cleveland in a pretty storied suburb, actually— BLAIR HODGES: This is Shaker Heights. DEBORAH COHAN: —Yes. Lots of books, and magazines, and articles, and all sorts of stuff on it. It's an interesting and complex place. I think people who don't live there think of it as this sort of gilded community, upper middle class, et cetera. Lots of other things are happening there, as they are everywhere. The one interesting thing is when you grow up in a community where there is an amount of privilege, and there are resources and things, things like family violence do become even more secretive. It's not until I published the book that I found even high school friends and acquaintances coming out, reaching out, telling me, "Oh my gosh, I experienced the same thing," or, "I had no idea you were going through that in high school. So was I." People are left feeling even more alone in a situation like that. So as I said, I was born in Cleveland and I was raised as an only child, which is a very big piece of this book because of the ways that kind of complicates things. Especially because my parents had also divorced very soon before my dad got sick. Then I wound up as his main person, his caregiver. My dad was someone who was really adoring. He was an amazing dad in many ways, actually. You know, I still, I miss and love him every day. He died eleven years ago this month, actually. But he was also abusive. That's something we can talk about later on, but that's a really big issue to me, is for people to understand the multidimensionality of the abuser, and the fact that, by all accounts, I guess people would say I grew up in a loving home. I grew up getting to do a lot of cool things with my parents. My parents were very successful. All this kind of stuff. But there was also this other side behind closed doors—or not always behind closed doors because my dad also was an expert at public humiliation and stuff. It was a lot to manage. My parents also—and I think this is really interesting, some of the demographic issues and stuff—is my dad had me when he was forty-two years old, and my mom was about to be thirty-five. In 1969 those were really older parents. Most of my friends, their parents were much, much younger. So that meant when all this started with my dad being sick, I was catapulted into caregiving at a time where my friends' parents were playing tennis and golf and retiring and doing other cool things like traveling and stuff. There again, I was sort of alone in this process. They married late because it was a second marriage. They had me later. They got divorced very late in life. They were almost sixty-five and seventy-two. All of these dynamics, all of these demographic trends, if you will—It's actually funny how the book stands at the intersection of all of these trends. And we're seeing them more and more. We're seeing people having kids later. We're seeing people divorcing later. We're seeing people living longer. BLAIR HODGES: Right, and adult kids caregiving for their parents or parent. DEBORAH COHAN: Often while caring for their own children. Then the other thing I talk about is the living apart together, where I'm partnered with someone where we don't live together. My husband lives two hours away. When I wrote the book, I didn't think about all the ways in which my life is sitting at these intersections of demographic shifts and trends and stuff. But it is, and I think some of those are really important to the way the book unfolds and to the way I think about all this stuff. BLAIR HODGES: You do sit at intersections of a lot of things. Just to flesh it out a little bit more, too, I'll mention that, as you said, your family was upper middle class in Shaker Heights. You say you were Jewish-identified but your family wasn't affiliated or practicing. Your parents were politically progressive. Your mom was artistic, an abstract artist. Your father worked in advertising. He wrote the Hawaiian Punch song. Is this true? DEBORAH COHAN: The line, yes. "How would you like a nice Hawaiian Punch?" BLAIR HODGES: Yeah! DEBORAH COHAN: Isn't that wild? BLAIR HODGES: That really caught me off guard. [laughter] Your parents were also married and divorced before they got married. Your father had two children you never got to know, just from this different phase of his life. That also fills out this background. If you have a copy of the book there, I thought it would be nice to hear you read from the Introduction. The first page gives us a good picture of what's to come. Can you read that for us? DEBORAH COHAN: "When I first set out to write about my dad, I thought my book would only be filled with stories of his abuse, his rage, my own resulting rage and grief, and maybe even his grief as well. However, the writing process revealed other emotions. Things that surprised me, disgusted me, delighted me, and saddened me. At moments, I was glad to be reminded of all the love I still feel for my father and reassured of his love for me. “I've anguished over whether in my promise to tell about my father's abuse with integrity and honesty, the story would somehow be diminished by this other story of the great love we shared. It's only now that I see that the one seemingly pure story of his abuse is not even a pure story. And interestingly, I don't think the abuse is even the grittiest or rawest part of the story. “As it turns out, the story would be easier to tell if all I needed to do was report about all the times that my dad behaved badly. You might get angry with him. And you might even feel sorry for me. But that's not what I wanted out of this book. You need to also know and feel the love we shared, the way I felt it. And I still do. “The much harder story to tell is the one that unfolds in these pages. It's the story of ambivalence, of what it means to stand on the precipice of both love and fear, and what it means to navigate between forgiveness and blame, care and disregard, resilience and despair." HIMPATHY (11:37) BLAIR HODGES: Thank you. A couple of things come to mind as I'm reading that. First of all, I wondered if you were presenting yourself as an exemplary type of person who'd experienced abuse. As it turns out, throughout the book, you don't. You don't set yourself forward as "everyone should process abuse the way I did." You don't expect people who have been abused to be forgiving, or to seek all of that. I want to let people know that right off the top. I did want to talk about Kate Manne's idea of "himpathy," because that's what came to mind here at the opening of your book before I knew what was coming. Himpathy as I understand it is this idea of extending sympathy to men who are doing crappy stuff, basically. The guy's the problem, but we tend to side with the guy or try to get inside his heart or his head and extend sympathy to someone who's done terrible things. You have a background of working with these domestic violence survivors and perpetrators. So I just wondered about your thoughts on that idea of himpathy, and how you negotiate with that as you think about your own relationship with your dad and as you were writing this book. DEBORAH COHAN: I have to admit I have not heard of that word or that theory. That would be interesting to read more about. I certainly did worry about that a bit. Here I am, trained in feminist sociology, and have done all this work, and it's almost like I didn't want to let people down or something, or didn't want to seem like I was giving him a pass, so to speak. BLAIR HODGES: Right. DEBORAH COHAN: I also had to write it in that authentic way I feel I did, and just realize the much more nuanced approach is actually the approach I took—which is that no one is purely one thing or another. Neither am I. I come out as pretty flawed in the book too, which I'm glad about because it's the “no one's perfect” thing. I think there are certainly people who might read the book who might say, "Oh, my gosh, I would never still love my dad," or, "I would have stopped talking to him," or "F– you" kind of stuff. I don't know. To me that would be too easy. I think the harder piece is to deal with that ambivalence. And as you say, it's not right for everyone and it's totally dependent on different people's situations. I also think, for some people, it's like some readers have told me, it's very valuable to have gotten to juggle both, so they can see how to juggle both themselves. It's not really that rare that someone who's been hurt by someone still wants a relationship with them. I guess the real essence of dealing with an abusive relationship is you want the abuse to stop but you want the relationship to continue. BLAIR HODGES: You “love” the person. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah. We see that with sexual abuse survivors a lot. There's a lot of research on that. It's complicated. It makes me want to read about this "himpathy" piece. BLAIR HODGES: Look up himpathy. It's this sympathy for men, basically. DEBORAH COHAN: She's critical of it. Obviously. BLAIR HODGES: She's critical, but it's very thoughtful. It resonates well with what you present in your book, which is, you're not giving your dad a pass or excusing his behavior, you're just also recognizing the ways you loved him and why. That's different than saying, "You know what, actually the abuse was okay," or even, "The abuse was maybe beneficial or maybe deserved." Or that all your attention would be focused on protecting your father's reputation, rather than talking about what the relationship really was and processing your feelings for other people to kind of witness and maybe go alongside with you. I think it's helpful. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah. If I grew up in the home my dad grew up in maybe I wouldn't have done anything different either. So it's really hard truths to reconcile, but I think they're really important. WHAT HE DID (15:31) BLAIR HODGES: It's important to think about individual responsibility, but also context. Sometimes it's easier to offload our anxiety that stuff like this happens by just demonizing an individual person. I want to be a strong proponent of justice and of attending to the person who has been abused first and foremost. I think their experience really needs to be attended to. I think if we just demonize an individual person, it excuses the ways we participate in a society that can facilitate stuff like that, basically. DEBORAH COHAN: Exactly. BLAIR HODGES: They're really bad. I can kind of overlook the crappy ways I treat people because here are these evil enemies over here I can identify as the bad people and not think about the ways I might be implicated. It's complicated, though. It's complicated. DEBORAH COHAN: Right. BLAIR HODGES: Let's talk about some abuse examples from your father. You say he was financially generous, but he was also financially controlling. You've seen this dynamic in other families. There comes this moment early on where he makes this comment to you. He says, "You'd make my life a lot easier if you'd just commit suicide." It seems like he wasn't saying that as a joke. It comes across as though he just said this to you as a matter of fact. DEBORAH COHAN: Yes, that was in the context of something that was financially abusive and controlling. It's so interesting to hear that comment restated to me, and I've heard it so many times since the book came out. It was even really startling the first time I saw it on the jacket of the book, and then it's on Amazon. It's like people glom on to it because it's so over the top for a parent to say that to a kid, or in this case a young adult woman, because I was in my twenties. I think that's the comment that makes people say, "Oh, I could never have cared for him. I could have never had a relationship with him." There is something odd about hearing it back and realizing that in a way, at the time, it was really upsetting but it almost—I guess like so many other acts of abuse, things get minimized or forgotten or denied. It's interesting to think of probably how soon after I still was able to talk to him or willing to engage with him, that sort of thing. And at the same time, I wouldn't really tolerate that. It's just one of those things where it's very hard to describe how I know that comment is so searing to readers and anybody hearing it. It's just so disturbing. At the same time, it's such a good example, though, of how his feelings were the priority, as is true in abusive relationships. Where it's like the abuser is so focused on their feelings and the other person's actions. It was such a prime example of where he completely distorted what I was saying and where I was trying to do something that could be helpful—to find out something about insurance and his financial contribution with stuff, and he just jumped into me verbally with this accusation and assuming the worst of me. In a sense, what I would want people hearing this to understand is not just the intensity of what he said, but how it encapsulates so many different pieces related to abuse. Like the threats, the focus on his feelings and my behavior. All of this. The assuming the worst of me is really the key piece of this. BLAIR HODGES: This is the kind of abuse you experienced, this verbal assault. You even say your father never actually hit you, physical abuse, but you did always have the perception he could. There was always a sense that he might, and you say that was its own sort of terror that can give a person trauma. DEBORAH COHAN: Oh, for sure. Because somebody who says something that vicious and cruel and brutal: "My life would be easier if you commit suicide." It is a slap in the face. It is a punch in the gut. It is all of those things, kind of metaphorically. I mean, this is why I think it's so crucial and I always try to encourage my students, and I talked about this with violent offenders, is to not create a hierarchy of what sort of abuse is worse than another. Because right, it's true. He did not pull my hair or spit on me or punch me or throw me against a wall or strangle me or any of these awful things that happen. But the threat of violence, the constant berating, the criticizing, the defining of reality—when someone says something like that to you, what are you supposed to say? I mean, there's no way to respond. It was his ability to try to exert that level of power and control, and that level of silencing me, and putting me in my place in this way. Those are some of the core defining features of abuse. BLAIR HODGES: I learned a lot more about abuse and seeing these patterns of abuse—for example, you talked about how maybe you would be together during a trip and he would freak out. He would scream and swear at you publicly. So not only did it hurt you because your dad's treating you that way, but also, it's embarrassing and other people are witnessing this, which compounds the hurt. This would happen during a trip where he was visiting. Then at the end of the trip you say he had this tactic of minimizing and mutualizing. Talk about the tactic, what that looks like to minimize and mutualize after an assault like that. DEBORAH COHAN: It's comments like, "It's not so bad," or, "Didn't we have a fun time?" Or glomming onto the parts that were fun. “Wasn't that wonderful when we saw the Lion King?” Or, “Wasn't that amazing when we ate at this restaurant?” By highlighting the goodies it forced me—again, it's part of his defining reality, but then it made me have to think, “Oh, that stuff was really nice. That was good. So maybe that's not so bad, the other stuff.” BLAIR HODGES: It doesn't feel like he was really asking, either. It seems like what's happened here is control. He needs to control the story. He's not really looking for your input about how you felt about everything, but really telling you, “By the way, this trip was awesome, you better think it was and if you don't, there's a problem with you.” DEBORAH COHAN: Not just that there's a problem with you, but also that you're insatiable and that you— BLAIR HODGES: That you deserve my yelling and stuff? DEBORAH COHAN: Or nothing I do for you is ever good enough. Then it turns into I'm not grateful enough, which was a huge part of the narrative. **WHEN REDEMPTION ISN'T FORGIVENESS (22:16) BLAIR HODGES: As we said before, this isn't a book of forgiveness for your father. You do repeatedly express your love for him and describe to the reader where that love comes from or what it looks like. But you're saying there's a sense in which you want some redemption for that relationship, but not necessarily forgiveness. That was an interesting distinction I'd never thought about before. Talk about how you see those two things of seeking some kind of redemption versus just forgiveness. DEBORAH COHAN: I love that question because so often people still conclude I've totally forgiven him and then decide, "Oh, I'm not sure I could forgive him." Like I talk about in the book, forgiveness is a bit overrated. As someone who does not identify religiously, forgiveness feels far too rooted in notions of religion. I'm not totally comfortable with that. I mean, I think the redemption is more that now I'm fifty-three years old, I understand people like my parents did the best they could with what they had at the time they did it. So I have more sort of acceptance of the multidimensionality of my parents in a way, and I think their deaths—because my mom has died also—their deaths helped to do that, even though that was something I dreaded for so long. But then it turns out there's something about it now, that I can see the full humanity of both of them in a way that maybe it was harder to see when they were alive. The other piece of the forgiveness thing is that in working with abusers, I remember working with a counselor. We were co-facilitating a group one evening and he was pushing this abuser, really holding him accountable. He kept saying to him, "What are you sorry for, who are you sorry for?" It was like, "Who are the tears for?" Really trying to get this guy to see he still didn't really seem like he was apologetic, really truly remorseful. That it was more about his own saving face. So I guess the reason full forgiveness still feels hard for me is my dad and I never had that full, totally open, me totally exposing all of my thoughts on this, kind if conversation, maybe over a period of months and years, where I could come to that, or where he asked for it in a way that I could give that to him. So I feel the most we can do here is redemption. BLAIR HODGES: How do you define that then? What is that redemption? DEBORAH COHAN: I feel like it's maybe that acceptance of all that imperfection and all the flaw and all the limitations and things, and that there are still these redeeming aspects of him as a man in the world, of him as a father, of him in my life. I mean, I guess I couldn't have the level of loving and missing him every day without that level of some redemption. And then some people have asked me, "Well, it does sound like you forgive him, though." It's almost like people just want to use that word so much— BLAIR HODGES: I feel tempted to that question, too. I wanted to say it's sort of a “brand” or a “genre” of forgiveness or something. [laughs] DEBORAH COHAN: Exactly. It's so interesting, though. I was friends with a couple. The woman has died and the man is much, much older. He's probably in his nineties now. Their daughter was murdered by their son-in-law. I had them speak at my classes and they were often asked, "Do you forgive the son-in-law?" Shirley, the mother, would always say, "No, and he never did anything to ask for it. He really never apologized. There was no authentic anything that would have warranted it and he never really accepted enough responsibility for forgiveness to be possible." I guess I'm still kind of at that piece. BLAIR HODGES: That's a forgiveness that seems like it has to be mutual, like the other person who hurt you needs to get inside your story, show they understand it, and make some kind of reparation or connection there. And for that kind of forgiveness to happen, yeah, you have to have the other— I think what people might be thinking when they suggest you have forgiven is the sense that you still find good in your dad. You love him. But there's also, as you say, there's always that disconnect that's a result of the years of abuse, you can't fully reconcile because reconciliation requires both people to be involved with it. And so it's just not possible. That kind of forgiveness has to be mutual. The other person has to be involved for that forgiveness to even work, I guess. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah, that it's more of a process. It, like the abuse, is not just an episode or an instance or a moment. It's much larger. One of the things that's difficult is my dad seemed to have in certain ways, he softened and almost showed me the possibilities of redemption once he was quite ill. Once he was very needy and dependent. He was in a nursing home, and that's when towards the end of the book he's telling me about his experience growing up and his father being abusive to his mother and witnessing it and thinking it was an outrageous thing. And his empathy went to his mother as a child. Yet he still reproduced this as an adult. But here was a man with dementia and he was totally immobile, and by then incontinent and all these other things. It was just—That wasn't the time to start digging into our relationship. But had he told me all that and had we been able to have that conversation when he was well, I don't even know if that would have been possible. Had that happened, had he been able to show me more, really that actions speak louder than words, really show me in a consistent, meaningful, trustworthy way, "Deb, I can't believe I did that to you." Really showing me through living out life with me that he would never do it again. But we never got there. FAMILY DYNAMICS WITH MOM (28:50) BLAIR HODGES: It was thirteen years before he died—eight of those years, he was very sick in these care facilities. You say you were lodged in an uncomfortably intimate relationship with him, as you mentioned, because you were an adult child of divorce. The family dynamic you grew up with was one where you trended toward being closer to your dad. I think there was probably a protective element to that. Your mom felt sort of sidelined. You really paint a compelling picture of why the divorce happened later on, the way your mom was sidelined, the way your family was this triangle that you felt pressured to make feel whole, which is something no child should have to reckon with. But then later on when they get this divorce, here's a quote from you, "During the years I cared for my dad, my mom's absence felt like a death." I realized, Deborah, how hard that must have been to basically be the only one who could really care for your dad during those eight years because your mom was gone. You're an only child of these divorced parents. DEBORAH COHAN: She kind of would accuse me of being angry at her for leaving. She would say that somehow I thought it was her responsibility to stay. She could tell it was really hard for me. In a certain way, though, she was very compassionate at times about what I was dealt with in those moments. Then there were other times in which she, as I say, almost accused me of being angry about it. Which is a whole other piece. BLAIR HODGES: Was that like a “They protest too much” kind of thing? It seems you were in some senses abandoned to care for him. I'm not suggesting that your mom shouldn't have gotten a divorce or anything. But their child is involved. You were stuck with handling that. It seems like a lot for a child in a family, even though you were a grown up at this point, to manage by yourself. I wonder if she worried if you resented it. It seems like— DEBORAH COHAN: Absolutely. She didn't just worry about it, she accused me of it! [laughs]. And then it was a little confusing. BLAIR HODGES: But did you feel that resentment? Was her charge valid? DEBORAH COHAN: That's a really good question, because I teach this book now in my class, and it's very interesting how I ask my students if they find my mom to be a sympathetic character. The reality is, I guess she is and she isn't. There are a lot of people who come to the conclusion, a little bit what you were just alluding to, of I should not have been left like that. It's kind of like my mom did something wrong, that I got stuck with all of this. What's interesting is, the book came out in 2020. My mom died a few months later. Here I am teaching the book. I can't have this conversation with my mother, which I would really like to have, which is, "Oh my gosh, if only you could hear all the ways in which I stand up for you." You know what I mean? I constantly am saying to students, "No, I don't blame my mom for leaving." In some ways I just wish she had left sooner, so they could have each had their new lease on life. To me it feels very sad that she did this at close to sixty-five and he was seventy-two. I'm not sure what else could have been done, though. I wouldn't expect people to stay in a marriage that isn't good or healthy for them. I can't fault my mom for leaving. It's more, I wish she had been able to do it earlier and I know I was probably part of the reason she didn't, which is a hard thing to deal with at the same time. BLAIR HODGES: Would you resist it if I said something like, “I wish your mom had tried and pitched in a little bit to take some of the pressure off?” DEBORAH COHAN: No, I think that's true. She did in certain ways, but she couldn't in other ways. From a legal standpoint, all this financial stuff, everything. She was certainly financially generous in her own way later and about other stuff. It might have been helpful had she just said, "Gosh, I see you're going to Cleveland again." I wasn't taking trips and doing really great stuff. I was going to Cleveland many times from Boston as I was in graduate school, as I was adjuncting, and teaching in different places, and commuting to Connecticut. I wish in those moments instead of just taking me out to dinner or—because she was living on Cape Cod by then so we were living much closer together. It might have been nice if she had just said, "I'll buy the airline ticket," or, "Let me make the reservation for you at the hotel," or whatever it was. That might have lessened the burden. Although, she did in other ways because then she might have helped fund something else I did need. It was just a very difficult time. AT THE NURSING HOME (33:54) BLAIR HODGES: That is helpful. I didn't have hard feelings toward your mom, I just wondered a little bit about— As you said, your mom was still alive when you were finishing this. It makes sense that some of that stuff couldn't have been processed yet. So that's helpful. I think people that pick up a copy of the book and check it out, that's a really great supplement to it. I'm glad to hear you can talk to people about that as you teach the book, too. The book we're talking about, by the way, again, is called Welcome to Wherever We Are: A Memoir of Family, Caregiving, and Redemption. It's written by Deborah J. Cohan, who is professor of sociology at the University of South Carolina Beaufort. You mentioned this a minute ago—finances. You basically witnessed your father's finances completely collapse. This is something a lot of people are experiencing and will probably be experiencing more and more because the social safety net in the United States is not great, but he went from a sharp dressing, fancy food enjoying ad executive to this man in filthy sweatpants sitting in this dilapidated care facility, living on Medicaid. And he ended up dying with about fifty dollars to his name. So you witness over the time he was there, his complete impoverishment. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah and also I think that's some of the redemption for him too, is just knowing if he was aware of what was left at the end, and what happened—I mean, his dream would have been to leave me with more to pay off my student loan debt, you know, all that kind of stuff. He would have been ashamed and humiliated in many of the ways that breadwinning and masculinity are so entangled with each other. BLAIR HODGES: Ah, that reminds me, there's an excerpt I thought you might read on page twenty-seven. You actually take us to the nursing home with some stories about what it was like when you visited him. It's that middle paragraph there. If you could read that excerpt—it's a list but wow, it certainly evokes experiences I've had. DEBORAH COHAN: "The nursing home: paved driveway. Automatic doors. Cigarette butts. Patients waiting for the next distribution of cigarettes. Orange sherbet and ginger ale and Saulsbury steak. Sticky floors. Dusty roads. Vinyl recliners. Bed pans. Bingo and sing-alongs. Stashes of adult diapers in the closets and drawers. Motorized wheelchairs. Schedules. Forms. Nursing aides and personal attendants. Styrofoam cups. Stale urine. Plastic water pitchers and bendable straws. Hospital beds. Dark, dingy rooms. A small rod for hanging clothes. Non-skid socks. No privacy. Open, unlocked rooms filled with demented wanderers. Whiteboards with washable markers stating the day of the week and the nurse on duty. Dead plants. Almost-dead people. Harsh overhead lighting and overheated rooms. Not enough real light. Tables that roll across beds for getting fed. Call bells and strings to pull in the bathroom. Air that doesn't move." BLAIR HODGES: The stories you tell there, Deborah, visiting there seemed really hard for you, let alone what it must have been like to live there. You felt such ambivalence about it. Because you say you almost couldn't stand being there at the moment, but you also would get really distraught about leaving there. DEBORAH COHAN: Absolutely, yes. And thanks for having me read that piece, by the way, because it's been so long since I've actually read it. It takes me back to the room also. The ambivalence showed up in so many different ways. I think that's so true of people who are visiting people who are frail and dying, or very ill. This sense of, you want to go, like I would be in Boston, I would want to go so badly. I would want to see him. I would want to give him a big hug. I would want to finally bring him food he craved or food that was a special treat instead of some of the things I listed in that piece. Then I would get there. It was like, “Oh, gosh.” I just wanted to flee. I walked in and it was just the chaos and the bureaucracy and just the antiseptic but actually filthy quality of these places that I illuminate in that piece. Then the guilt that totally seeped in in that moment, because then it was like, "Wait, I got here. I'm here. I'm supposed to want to be with him. I'm supposed to want to stay,” and now I'm counting down the time. It's sort of like, "Oh my gosh, I've been here twenty minutes. It feels like four hours." Then when I'd leave it was almost like that, "Oh, but I spent three hours," almost like I did good time or something. BLAIR HODGES: A Herculean effort just to get through the three hours. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah, and time is strange in a nursing home also, as it is in a hospital. People are motivated by the mealtimes. The newspaper delivery is listed as an activity at the place. These things that are just mundane activities in my life or your life, they become these big events at these nursing homes in ways that, when you're there and you're witnessing that, and you're well, it's really hard to watch and to do time the way that they're doing time. BLAIR HODGES: On a bigger scale, too, the cycle that would happen. So you talk about how there would be a medical crisis, things would seem really bad, but then he would kind of rally, show some resilience, kind of recover for a bit, you'd get a little bit of hope, and then it would crash again. And this cycle kept happening. It reminds me of this paragraph I highlighted here. You say, "Perhaps many adult children caring for dying parents deal with this dilemma. How much to let the parent in. How much to keep the parent at bay. It's hard to get that close to almost-death, to anticipatory grief, and when an abusive history is part of it, that push/pull with how to have healthy emotional closeness and distance becomes that much more intensified." You're talking about the already complicated dynamics and then you add the layer of abuse into it, which makes it all the more complicated. DEBORAH COHAN: I appreciate you did such a close good reading of it, because I don't know that everybody picks up some of the pieces and the nuances and especially the contradictory realities that are present. I really appreciate that and what you've read and shared and asked and are revealing to the audience. That's just the hardest part of all, is reconciling those pieces. Okay, I spent most of my childhood really worried my parents would die or my parents would get divorced. As an only child, those two things felt incredibly scary, that I would lose one or both of them, or that they would get divorced. It kind of haunted me up until they died, really. And my dad, like any one of the things he suffered from people die from pretty easily. You know, he had an aneurysm. He had a heart attack. He had diabetes. He had so many different things— BLAIR HODGES:  —He had dementia, yeah. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah. And then at the same time, though, he kept—like you're saying—bouncing back. It was like the Energizer Bunny. It was like nothing's going to get this guy. In a way that's an interesting parallel with the abuse. It was almost like, unstoppable. It was the sense of like, he could be abusive and then quick fix, make it up. Apologize, be really sweet and kind, and then do it again. But it's like… BLAIR HODGES: Another kind of cycle. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah, another cycle. And also the cycle of vulnerability coupled with this omnipotence. That was present when he was ill. Like he was totally vulnerable. There was a time in 2006, I think it was, where I really thought he was going to die. There was no doubt. It just felt like this is imminent now. He was hallucinating and all these other things. He didn't die for six more years! And between those six years he moved to different nursing homes, basically, because of bad behavior. But it reminds me of those inflatable dolls, or those inflatable things on lawns. BLAIR HODGES: Like outside the car dealership thing? DEBORAH COHAN: Like you hit it and it keeps coming back. BLAIR HODGES: Oh, yeah. It falls and then pops back up. DEBORAH COHAN: And it'll keep standing, exactly. And that was my dad in everything. BUTTERFLY EFFECT FIXATION (42:54) BLAIR HODGES: You say nothing could really prepare you for that. There was this moment when he falls at the Cleveland airport, you kind of pinpoint this as a turning point for him, where he seems to be in relatively good health, but he fell and broke his hip. You were involved in that trip too. You carried these feelings about that. DEBORAH COHAN: Absolutely. BLAIR HODGES: You were worried he was about to die then, and you weren't ready. Then again, you were less prepared for what ended up happening, which was years of this cycle of health crises and then recoveries. Nothing could have prepared you for that. DEBORAH COHAN: And the reality is you're never ready. It's almost like you can know what's happening. He was never going to get better. But I also didn't think he was going to die three days before I started my new job in South Carolina, three weeks after I moved here, after just being divorced myself. I didn't really, it was like, “That was interesting timing, Dad.” [laughs] But you just said something that was really interesting and reminds me of the passage I just read from being in the nursing home, and it relates to the moment he fell. So when my dad fell at the airport, he was going there in a limo, being dropped off, got out of the car and fell on ice in Cleveland at the airport. My friend, who's now, I mean he's ex-husband, Mark, he and I were heading to Cleveland to meet my dad to then go to Florida. BLAIR HODGES: With him. DEBORAH COHAN: With him. It was supposed to be this vacation. My dad had packed his red suitcase, and it turns out that red suitcase, which is also featured in the book, that thing was screaming at me every time I would go and visit him in a nursing home. I don't know why I didn't think to trash it. Maybe because I kept hoping we would get to pack it and he could go home. But like, honestly, that suitcase was just—it was like a bully, you know?  It was this sense of like—it was taunting because I felt, and I still kind of do, if my dad wasn't taking us to Florida, he wouldn't have fallen on ice at the airport and he wouldn't have broken his hip, and then he wouldn't have—then his whole life wouldn't have come tumbling down with it. BLAIR HODGES: Butterfly effect moment, right? DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah. But at the same time, that's sort of abuse survivor logic. BLAIR HODGES: Oh, you're putting it on you. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah, like if I hadn't have done this, he wouldn't have done that to me. Or if I had done this, he definitely would have behaved differently and then I wouldn't have been told “I wish you'd commit suicide” or something. It's interesting how even in a moment like that, that has really nothing to do with abuse, the psyche that's been dealing with abuse and those dynamics, is still contaminated by that. There was still that sense of, “God, if only we hadn't gone to Florida! If only we hadn't made that trip!” And the reality is, I was actually very tentative about wanting to go on that trip. My dad really wanted this for us. He really wanted the three of us to go and have this wonderful time and be at this resort. And I was haunted by some of my memories of my dad on trips. I didn't want to deal with that with my husband at the time. BLAIR HODGES: Right. DEBORAH COHAN: And then I also dealt with the guilt and the shame around not really wanting the trip. And then he actually—his whole life tumbled down as a result of a trip he really wanted that I didn't want because I wasn't grateful enough. So it did this whole thing. I mean, I can still feel it. BLAIR HODGES: It recurs. You bring it up throughout the book. This Cleveland airport is a recurring moment you keep going back to. DEBORAH COHAN: Yes. And then isn't it wild that I got the news of his death at a different airport— BLAIR HODGES: Right! DEBORAH COHAN: —as I was about to board a plane to go and see him for the last time, which at that time really I knew was the last time because they called me to pretty much tell me that earlier in the day. So I arranged to leave that evening, and then missed it. Again, at the time it was like, “Oh my gosh, you're such a screw up! You can't even get to see him when…” It was just this… BLAIR HODGES: The reflex of self-blame. DEBORAH COHAN: Criticism, yes. I had internalized that so much, and so it was a process to try to realize like, no. My dad could have fallen anywhere. Something else could have happened. Because of course something else would have happened. But it was so hard to see in that moment. ONE LITTLE EXTRA SOMETHING (47:49) BLAIR HODGES: This reminds me the ways you're very confessional and vulnerable yourself in the book. This isn't a book about Deborah Cohan the hero who cared for her dying father. This is a book of Deborah Cohan who's wrestling with the ambiguity of being someone who experienced abuse, who has really hard feelings about that, and who also has feelings of love. But there was, I think one of the most arresting— Well I probably shouldn't try to qualify it. To me, the most arresting moment in the book is when you're listing all the medications he's taking on any given day when he's in a care facility. There's Ambien, Glucotrol, amoxicillin, mycelium, and even more. You see this one-month pharmacy bill that added up to twelve hundred dollars. Then you add this startling line. You say, "One extra little something slipped into this whole mess would be untraceable." This is one of the darkest thoughts a caregiver might experience, but you're not the only caregiver who I've heard talk about this. So I wanted to spend a little bit of time there about what it was like confessing that, talking about that in your book. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah, I certainly—I hope it's understood in the book that it wasn't about revenge. BLAIR HODGES: Right. DEBORAH COHAN: It wasn't like because of that moment when my dad thought his life would be easier if I committed suicide that I want to somehow poison him or kill him. It was this very deep in my bones feeling of, “No one should have to live this way.” BLAIR HODGES: It was, you were witnessing suffering. And your brain was like what can we do for this? DEBORAH COHAN: To stop it, yes. My parents, as I said, and you identified it as well, they were very progressive. And I still remember conversations when I was growing up where my dad would say, "If that ends up happening to me—” like, you know, he would talk about people who— BLAIR HODGES: Right. “I don't want to live like that." DEBORAH COHAN: “I don't wanna live like that. Just kill me. Do something.” So I think even he would have been compassionate and understanding to the thought I had. But what's also interesting that you didn't reveal in your question though is, when I revealed it to myself, I was also telling it to my husband at the time, who thought I was just totally crazy for thinking it, for saying it. It was almost like I should be ashamed of myself. And then there I go, retelling the whole thing in the book. So I wasn't, I really never wound up being so ashamed of it. It was more the sense of the absolute desperation a caregiver feels. The absolute helplessness to stop the suffering and to also stop witnessing it, too! It was like, how much longer can we all go on like this? It was sort of like this is an untenable situation. BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, this wasn't a revenge plot. DEBORAH COHAN: Absolutely not. BLAIR HODGES: This was a desperate moment of trying to figure out how to make the suffering end. I mean, you talk about how caregiving amplified your childhood instincts, your hyper-responsibility and hyper-vigilance, and what toll that could take on you over a number of years. What was it like being hyper-vigilant, hyper-responsible about your father? DEBORAH COHAN: Well you almost alluded to it in the list of the medications. I was carrying around like, a file box in my car with all sorts of information about his health, with all sorts of papers, with duplicate copies of things, because I don't want to be caught off guard, not prepared. If someone calls me, I want to have it all ready. I always had pen and paper with me. Yeah, it's true that there's a hyper-vigilance that happens when someone's experiencing an abusive relationship or witnessing abuse. That sense of being on guard, of trying to have every base covered. That sort of thing. BLAIR HODGES: Be blameless, really. DEBORAH COHAN: Yeah, you know I did that, I extended that into caregiving. I made a list of—I mean, it was sort of crazy, but I did—I sent a copy to my mother, I sent a copy to the nursing home, I sent a copy everywhere. And actually it was when he lived at home, before that, where I had something on the refrigerator that had his social security number, all of his information—like the drugs he takes, his health history, the dates of surgeries—so that any of the nurses caring for him in his home could see that, could know what was going on, could assist. BLAIR HODGES: You were also on call all the time, expecting any phone call. It seemed like you were just tied to your phone in case there was a phone call that would come in. DEBORAH COHAN: Right. And when he died, I talk about how that night after talking with my friend for hours on my couch, afterwards then I just go and I turn off the phone. And I've done that every single night since. I never leave my phone on. BLAIR HODGES: Right! From that point on. DEBORAH COHAN: It's like he'll call me at three or four in the morning. If I'm up, I'll answer, if I'm not— I could be called at any moment about anything and there was just no boundaries on it. Because again, it's the sense of they have to for different liability reasons, but I was being called about anything and everything. DOES THE CHILD BECOME THE PARENT (53:22) BLAIR HODGES: It took up mental and emotional space twenty-four hours a day. And as you watched all these losses pile up—he stopped being able to drive, he stopped being able to walk, he stopped being able to write, then read, then feed himself, then he lost control of his bladder, he couldn't think straight, he couldn't remember. The dementia took over. And you tell us about a friend of yours called Julie. She's a geriatric care specialist. You said she's actually not comfortable when she hears people talking about a role reversal in this situation. It's common for people to say the child becomes the parent and the parent becomes like the child. You're doing a lot of the same things. They're helping feed them, they probably wear diapers, there's all these things going on. You say Julie is not comfortable with that comparison. But you kind of disagree with her. I wanted to hear your thoughts about where Julie's coming from and how you see it. DEBORAH COHAN: Well I mean, she was so compassionate to me about my dad and about all that has happened. In fact, I remember saying to her, I'm going to be using your name, if you don't want me to use it, I can give you a pseudonym. BLAIR HODGES: It's the risk of being friends with a writer. [laughter] DEBORAH COHAN: Exactly! But I mean, nobody's really talked about in a singularly bad way in the book. Not even my dad. So with Julie I think that's a common thing in gerontology, in her field, is the sense of empowering the person who is being cared for. BLAIR HODGES: Conferring dignity. If you say they're like children that's undignified or that's demeaning. DEBORAH COHAN: Exactly. And that's why these nursing homes will ask families to post pictures of when the person was younger and more robust and vibrant on the door or in the entrance to the room, so when people are going in to see the patient they're also reminded, “Oh, this is really who I'm seeing. I'm not just seeing this person who's only weak and sick and vulnerable.” But you know what's interesting to me about that is I felt that a lot with my father. I felt like I wanted to just scream to [laughs] anybody who would listen or any of the nurses or anyone, this isn't really my dad! This is my dad! Kind of asserting the strengths and the brilliance he did have. At the same time, though, it was very hard for me to give that credit to other people, you know? [laughs] So when I would see other residents who were really bad off, I had a hard time thinking about them in their prior phases of their life. I think that's just something caregivers struggle with. I certainly wasn't unique in that. BLAIR HODGES: Sure, and I'm sympathetic to Julie in the sense of conferring dignity and being mindful of this person as a person worthy of concern and care and not infantilizing people. But you also say, when you're feeding your dad and he's spitting up down his shirt and all these things, you can't help but feel like that role has been reversed. I'd like to find a way to both dignify and honor the parent, and also validate and recognize the experience of the child who is now being a caregiver. I think both things are possible. DEBORAH COHAN: That's why when I talk about feeding my dad birthday cake, there's this point where I talk about it as like a terrible beauty in feeding a parent. That gets at that to me. Again, the ambivalence, the contradictory reality, the sense that we should be there in a certain way. They did this for us. We should do this for them with no sense of negativity. At the same time, this is not really how it was supposed to go. BLAIR HODGES: There was no rehearsal for it, too, for you. You were just there. The cupcake was there. And here you are, you're feeding your dad. DEBORAH COHAN: And he wouldn't have wanted that. The last thing he would have wanted was to have me feed him, I mean oh my gosh. LETTER TO DADDY (57:34) BLAIR HODGES: There's one more excerpt I'd like to hear you read here. You wrote some of this book in your dad's presence there at the nursing home when he would be asleep, and you were at his side. This is on page one 142. You wrote to him in that moment in 2009. If you can read it. DEBORAH COHAN: Sure. It's just funny. I'm laughing only because I feel like I have that page memorized. I have actually read this piece quite a bit when I've spoken about the book. It does feel like a really evocative passage, and not because it talks about his abuse at all, but also because of the writerly technique that I used in it of taking almost like field notes that I wound up using. It's exactly the same, I didn't change anything. But I didn't know I was writing a book at that moment either. "I watch you as you sleep, not unlike you probably watched me as I slept as a newborn baby and as a young girl, and wonder, in awe, in calm, and in worry. A parent watches a child sleep with anticipation of a future. An adult child watches a sick parent sleep with a sense of the past. You are finally still and quiet. You, a man who I know is chaotic and loud. We rest in this calm as you fall in and out of slumber and I grade papers. I need to study your face, memorize it, because I know I'll need it one day. Yet the you now is not the you I want to remember. “In a few days, I'll be back with over a hundred students, giving lectures, attending meetings, going to a concert, a lunch with a friend, a performance of The Vagina Monologues. And in my week ahead, I worry about being too busy, about running from one activity to the next, breathless. “Yet one day, Daddy, you did this too, right? How would you restructure those days now? What did you hope for? What do you look for now? You look tired, though I can't tell if you're tired of this life. Yesterday I brought you coffee from Caribou with one of their napkins that made a jab at Starbucks that said, 'Our coffee is smooth and fresh because burnt and bitter were already taken.' Whenever I see great lines and logos I think of you. Your creativity still shines through as we leaf through metropolitan home and marvel at minimalist spaces. Your stained sweatpants are pulled up halfway toward your chest and your stomach looks distended. “Earlier today I saw as you put imaginary pills to your mouth with your fingers, something I assume to be a self-soothing ritual you performed after the nurse told you it was not yet time for more medication. Being in Cleveland, I'm surrounded by childhood friends hanging out with their dads, younger men than you in their sixties and early seventies. Robust, athletic, energetic men vigorously playing tennis and golf, working, traveling and chasing after their dreams, not figments of their imaginations in thin air. “Oh, Daddy. Your eyes open suddenly, and you ask, ‘What are you writing?' I quickly respond, ‘Oh, nothing really, it's just for school.'" LATE-STAGE CONFRONTATIONS (1:01:06) BLAIR HODGES: That's Deborah Cohan, professor of sociology at the University of South Carolina Beaufort. She earned her PhD in Sociology and a Joint Master of Arts in Women's Studies and Sociology at Brandeis University. That excerpt is from her book, Welcome to Wherever We Are: A Memoir of Family, Caregiving, and Redemption. You mentioned a little bit about this already, Deborah, but maybe just take one moment and talk about the ways your father maybe tried to reckon with the abusive dynamics of your relationship later in life. If there was any indication that he came to regret how he treated you. You talk about, for example, when he tried to volunteer at a domestic violence clinic. Even in that context, it didn't really come up. It doesn't sound like you had many opportunities, or that you felt safe enough or whatever, to straightforwardly confront him and say this was an abusive situation. DEBORAH COHAN: I certainly tried. There was a time when I was doing the abuse intervention work and I was working late into the night and our groups ran from 8pm to 10pm, after men had worked their jobs and then came to this program, and then I was leaving Cambridge—This was when I was in Boston, and leaving late at night, 10:30, 11 o'clock, and walking into a parking lot by myself and driving home. And I remember this one day my dad and I were on the phone, he was so concerned for my safety. It really upset him that I was doing this, and doing it late. And I did in that moment really try to question his fear and to try to help him understand, though it didn't really work, but to really try to say, ‘Dad, the things that these guys do are no different than things you've done. I'm not afraid of them. That was not an issue for me.' I guess he didn't want to also see me driving around late at night. But the reality is had I been afraid I wouldn't have been an effective counselor for these guys either. I had to try to help my dad understand that I was working with them in as fearless and compassionate a way as possible, but I guess in that moment I also felt fearless and compassionate in the conversation with him, of trying to say, ‘Dad, you're labeling these guys as monsters, as demons. And actually, your behavior is on a continuum with theirs.' And that's disturbing to hear from your daughter, obviously. But it was important for me to say. So I'm really glad I had a moment to tell him that. It didn't lead to a very productive conversation because he, like many men in the program, still wanted to minimize aspects of their behavior or rationalize it, or it was like this—"But Deb, I never hit you. Deb, I never did this. I never did that. Like that would be horrifying. But what I did wasn't as bad." I didn't really let him get away with that, and that's another reason why, for me, writing this book was critical. Because there really is not enough out there to highlight the damage of verbal and emotional and psychological abuse and threats. There's so much out there around physical abuse, and also sexual abuse. Movies and books and things like that. And those are really important cultural documents we have in the world. But the thing that also has happened is, people don't understand enough about the damage of the emotional abuse and the verbal abuse. And as a result, with so much less written about it, I really felt this tremendous ethical responsibility to write the book. SEE YOU AROUND (1:05:06) BLAIR HODGES: You talk about how much your dad is still with you. You close the book by saying you see him in so much of life. I wondered what's an example of that? And whether you think that fades over time at all? DEBORAH COHAN: No, I don't think any of this fades. I definitely don't think time heals everything or any of that stuff that people say. No, I do—I see him in so much, I guess in the past six years or so I have gotten much more involved as a public sociologist, translating ideas and concepts and theories and things for the larger public. So getting quoted in major news outlets and doing a lot of writing and things like that. That's probably the part where I so miss my father, because he would get such a tremendous kick out of the fact that I wrote for Teen Vogue, or that I, you know, was quoted in Time magazine, or I wrote a piece for Newsweek recently. I mean he just, that was his bread and butter. That's what he loved. I mean, he would have loved that I was on this podcast. He would probably be really angry and humiliated about some of what I'd be talking about. But he definitely had this overwhelming pride and interest in my accomplishments. And that has been a really hard thing to deal with because my career really took off since I've lived here, and that's when he died. And he always dreamed of living in the Carolinas, or in New Mexico, or Arizona. So sometimes I feel like I'm sort of living out something he really wanted that he didn't actualize. I think he would be pretty over the moon about the fact that I moved to South Carolina and have made a good life for myself here. I'm a lot happier as a person than I ever was before. Some of that is probably healing from abuse. It's being in a new relationship. It's so many different things. Like, I wish he could know me now. I wish I could talk to him and know him now. It's just such a strange thing, you know? But I do feel like, hopefully somehow, he knows. I had him for a long time. I'm partnered with a man whose dad died when he was ten years old. I'm often thinking to myself, "Man, I wish he knew Mike." I mean, he really missed out. He really missed out, and Mike missed out knowing his father. And I didn't have that. But instead, I had this very torturous, very complicated relationship. It's really tricky. But it's interesting because the conversations I grew up having with my dad that were really fun and provocative and helpful to me were often conversations around advertising and marketing and all that kind of stuff. Funny enough, my partner, Mike, that's his thing! He's a Director of Media Relations. So here I am still having those conversations at dinner. It's a little bit bizarre. **REGRETS, CHALLENGES, & SURPRISES (1:08:19) BLAIR HODGES: In some ways, that circle continues to close. DEBORAH COHAN: Exactly. BLAIR HODGES: Well, Deborah, let's conclude with the segment Regrets, Challenges, & Surprises. This is when you can talk about anything you regret about the book now that it's out, what the most challenging thing about writing it was, or what kind of surprises you encountered as you created this book. You can speak to one, two, or all three of those things. Regrets, challenges, and surprises. DEBORAH COHAN: I would say I don't have any regrets, which I'm so pleased about because of the nature of the topic. And the fact that surviving abuse and dealing with caregiving are riddled with regrets, the fact that I could write a book and not have regrets about it is pretty remarkable to me. BLAIR HODGES: You didn't even find any typos or anything like that? [laughs] DEBORAH COHAN: There might be I don't know— BLAIR HODGES: I didn't notice any. [laughter] DEBORAH COHAN: There might be, I don't know, but I'm kind of crazy about that kind of stuff though. My dad was too. Oh my gosh, I inherited my spelling and all that craziness from him. BLAIR HODGES: Funny. I didn't notice any. So no regrets. Alright, well, challenges and surprises? DEBORAH COHAN: I mean I don't have any regrets! I don't feel like there's anything I revealed in the book that I wish I hadn't revealed. There's nothing I wish I had included that I didn't include, that kind of thing, which feels really good to me. Yeah, I mean I actually have been thinking about this a lot as I've been writing this new book I'm working on, because it's that sense of, you just really don't want to forget something. You want to make sure that whatever you wanted to say is in it. BLAIR HODGES: Once it's out, it's out, so. DEBORAH COHAN: Right. And at the same time, though, I've started to grow more comfortable with the fact that writing itself is a process and that I will come to think about things and know things in new and different ways. And I guess, when you ask what's surprising, I will say it has surprised me that the thing I was most afraid of—which was the death of a parent or both parents—has been also freeing. It's been a pretty startling revelation I guess you could say. BLAIR HODGES: Is it hard to talk about that? Some people might say,

https://www.nba.com/blazers/reusehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/brittanysaulsbury/Did you know the Trailblazers have saved over 160,000 cups from the landfill? How did the Blazers become the first American venue to serve Notpla Seewead? Why is sustainability so important in the Northwest? Check out our sponsor Orora Packaging Solutions https://ororapackagingsolutions.com/ https://specright.com/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/1329820053/ref=as_sl_pc_qf_sp_asin_til?tag=corygathttps://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/I'm here to help you make your packaging more sustainable! Reach out today and I'll get back to you asap. This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.

Creativity through the lens of the Co-Founder of PNWBushCraft"Creativity to me is, being able to use my imagination to look at something from a different angle."Heather Saulsbury is a motivated and intelligent entrepreneur who thrives on combining her passion for the outdoors with her artistic talents. As the co-founder of PNWBUSHCRAFT, she crafts high-quality waxed canvas gear, inspiring adventurers to explore the wilderness. Heather's multidimensional experience and unwavering drive make her a force to be reckoned with in the entrepreneurial worldhttps://www.pnwbushcraft.com/https://www.instagram.com/pnwbushcraftshop/https://www.youtube.com/@PnwBushcraftShophttps://www.facebook.com/PnwbushcraftShop

Guiding you through the world of growth, performance marketing, and partner marketing.We sit down with growth and marketing leaders to share tests and lessons learned in business and in life.Host: Tye DeGrangeGuest: Tomas Saulsbury-HunterHype man & Announcer: John Potito

You read it right, DEIB, not just DEI. The “B” is for belonging. Rhett will tell us all about that during our time together in this episode. Rhett was born with a condition known as craniosynostosis. This is a condition where the skull is malformed. Without treatment, the malformity can lead to Down's Syndrome. He was one of the first children to benefit from surgery to correct this condition. After a successful time at college obtaining a Bachelor's and Master's degree Rhett went into then years working in College Administration. While working toward his Master's degree at Salisbury University he met his wife which he would tell you was the most important event in his life. Eight years ago he relocated from Maryland, where he grew up, to San Francisco where he is now part of a nonprofit organization dedicated to eliminating homelessness in San Francisco. Along the way, he also has authored two self-help books and five children's picture books. Unstoppable by any definition. He will inspire you I am sure and he will give you some life lessons you will find useful. About the Guest: Rhett Burden is a Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB) practitioner, author, and speaker from San Francisco, California. Rhett partners with high schools, colleges, and universities to develop the personal and professional consciousness of their students, faculty, and staff. After spending nearly a decade working in college administration, and writing books to empower, and uplift students, Rhett has learned what it takes to be successful. It's how well you connect with the people you're trying to help and communicate your understanding back to them. Rhett is a life member of the UMES National Alumni Association and a 2019 inductee into the UMES National Alumni Association Hall of Excellence. Additionally, Rhett is a member of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc and a Prince Hall Mason. Rhett holds a MA in conflict analysis and dispute resolution from Salisbury University (SU), BA in sociology from the University of Maryland Eastern Shore (UMES), and AA in real estate from City College San Francisco (CCSF). He has also authored seven (7) books; 2 professional development and 5 children's picture books. Rhett is a proud father, son, and husband who is on a mission to leave a legacy Social Media & Website Link LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rhettburden/ Website: rhettburden.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:16 Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. Glad you're with us. Hope you can stay around for the whole hour. We have Rhett Burden today, who is our guest and he is an author. He's a diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging person. I'm really excited to hear about that. And I know he has some other stories to tell us so we're gonna get right into it, Rhett Welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Rhett Burden  01:50 Michael, good afternoon. Thank you for welcoming me. I'm excited to chat with you about diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging and so much more.   Michael Hingson  02:00 Yeah. And we'll have to definitely deal with so much more whatever it turns out to be right.   Rhett Burden  02:04 Absolutely.   Michael Hingson  02:07 Well, let's start. Like I love to do kind of more at the beginning. And tell us a little bit about you growing up and some of all the things that happened along the way there that probably helped kind of make you what you are today, or maybe not for all I know.   Rhett Burden  02:21 Absolutely. Well, to start at the beginning, I don't think I can tell my story without mentioning to you in your audience that I was born with a rare birth defect known as cranial synostosis. craniosynostosis is a birth defect that causes the skull not to fuse properly. And the incision. So I guess if I were to give it its full name is I have sagittal, cranial synostosis, which means that I have an incision and running from the top of my head to about three quarters of the way back. That shaped who I am. Because as I grew older and learn more about craniosynostosis, it impacted the empathy that I had for others. It impacted the way I look and feel about myself. And it made me more interested in perennial synostosis craniosynostosis folks that are inflicted with it, and those that weren't as fortunate as I was to have a successful surgery at GW Hospital in Washington, DC.   Michael Hingson  03:30 So you had surgery to deal with that? When did that happen? What year was that?   Rhett Burden  03:35 I would have had surgery early on. So this is early, mid 1980s, somewhere between 1987 and 1988. When I was a very, very young child,   Michael Hingson  03:47 is there still kind of visible evidence of the surgery and so on for you today?   Rhett Burden  03:54 There is I must say I'm a fairly tall guy. So for those that are taller than me, and that could look down and see the top of my head, then yes, you can visibly see it.   Michael Hingson  04:06 So did did it kind of affect you with other kids and so on growing up, or were they were they not too abusive and mean to you because you had something that looked a little different than most of them?   Rhett Burden  04:19 Well, in fairness, I would say most children are teased or picked on by their peers. I was no different. I was no exception to that rule for me. Growing up I remember folks being really interested in when they heard the story and wanting to touch the incision or touch the scar because I have what appears to be like a lump or a small indent. So once you know the teasing is over and you're just having conversation with folks even from middle school in high school, they were very interested to touch into feel because I've always been very open about it. I had the surgery not been successful, I would have had Down syndrome, my life would have taken an entirely different path. So I've always been open in chatting about it.   Michael Hingson  05:13 Well, but you obviously survived growing up and you went to high school into college. Did you do any thing unusual in high school or college or anything like that? Were you in sports or any of those things? Or, or any? Or were you just sort of what most kids were?   Rhett Burden  05:31 I would say I had a great high school and college experience. I tried out for sports teams in high school. And fortunately, I didn't make the sports team. But I was friends with the athletes. It was a different time back then. So a lot of time was spent outside building relationships, biking, running, exploring. Video games were popular, but not to the height of their popularity as they are now video games weren't considered a sport. So there were no eSports in my day. And then in college, I had a great collegiate experience also.   Michael Hingson  06:07 Yeah, video games have now become quite a big thing. Most of them don't talk. So I don't get to do much in the way of video games, but I can appreciate the art form.   Rhett Burden  06:19 Absolutely. Absolutely.   Michael Hingson  06:21 So you went to college? What'd you major in?   Rhett Burden  06:25 Yeah, so went to the University of Maryland, Eastern Shore, historically black college and university on the eastern shore of Maryland. So near Ocean City, not too far from Delaware. And I studied sociology got a minor in public policy. And you and me yes. Is, has been will always be one of the best decisions I've ever made. The friendships that I've made the relationships that were built the social experience that I had, at historically black colleges and universities, less like most schools, they are things like student government association. So I got my first job working as an RA a Resident Assistant. In the residential communities. I was fortunate enough to be voted as the face of the sophomore class, the junior class and even the face of the university. So it's called Mr. Sophomore, and Mr. Jr. and Mr. University of Maryland, Eastern Shore, I went on to compete in the National Black College Hall of Fame contest, where I came in third. And oddly enough, my roommate at the time at that experience that happened, and in Missouri, he won, and he was from Tennessee State. So if you'll meet us has given me so much. And I will forever be indebted to that institution and the experience that he gave me.   Michael Hingson  08:00 So tell me about the competition. What did you have to do? How did you all compete?   Rhett Burden  08:05 Yeah, so it's an annual competition that takes place and particular HBCU around the country, and all of the faces of the HBCU. So all of the misters, whatever the name of the university is, they go and compete. And it's something similar to a pageant where you have to showcase a talent, you do a monologue, there's a opening number, you are voted on by a panel of judges. And it is all to see who will be crowned Mr. Historically Black College and University for that year. So I was very fortunate I competed in 2009. It again, didn't win, but did come in third place and will again forever be grateful for that opportunity. I have made some lifelong friends from being a part of it, that contest.   Michael Hingson  08:56 That is really pretty cool. And obviously you did learn some speaking up speaking things along the way. You certainly seem to be pretty articulate in that regard as well. And you are a public speaker, aren't you?   Rhett Burden  09:08 I am very, oddly enough, going back to my time a Umes. That's when I really got interested in training and facilitation started off being a resident assistant. Oddly, I was the university's first freshman alrea. When I started in 2005, I was there for a semester, and just networked and worked my way into getting the position which had not been done before you had to normally be a sophomore or a junior, so you could have some more collegiate experience so you could give back to the freshman class. And I just became enamored with personal and professional development, designing training, presentations, facilitating public speaking. And then because I was fortunate enough to be the face of these classes, sophomore junior class and then the face of the university. I was an ambassador for the university. Oh, always speaking on behalf whether it dealt with recruitment retention, the social experience and it was really a part of my journey that has shaped me to the man I am today.   Michael Hingson  10:11 When you speak or when you were doing speeches and are doing speeches, do you like to write everything out and read or do you tend to be more extemporaneous and, and modify according to the situation or whatever is happening,   Rhett Burden  10:29 I would say a little bit of both contingent upon the audience. If I am giving a keynote, that I like to have my thoughts flushed out, especially if the audience's a C suite or group of professionals, when I'm working with colleges and universities, you can be a bit more free, a bit more fun, you can work in some audience engagement in a way that you just can't do when you're working with a group of professionals. So I would say a little bit of both based on the audience.   Michael Hingson  10:58 Well, how did you get into speaking, I would imagine and partly came from the Umes and the other experiences that you've talked about, but how did you get into doing that kind of as part of what you do?   Rhett Burden  11:12 Absolutely. Well, I was a member of the Student Government Association, my was a residential assistant. And there would often be opportunities to knowledge share, whether it was working with first year communities, or, you know, helping new staff learn processes and procedures. And I would always volunteer, I really felt comfortable being on stage, I've always felt comfortable being in front of people, I've never mind minded making a fool of myself if that's what was required, but also standing firm and speaking boldly about issues that are important to me, and trying to bring people along. So that's really where it started.   Michael Hingson  11:58 I find it interesting that so many people fear public speaking or fear being up on a stage, I guess they don't want to think that they might look dumb, or it's all about appearances, and so on. But being up on stage has never, for example, bothered me. I've just never been bothered by doing that. I'm used to it. And I guess it's been that way my whole life.   Rhett Burden  12:25 That's awesome. And I know that you do it. Well, considering your history. So yeah, I've always enjoyed it. It is a lot of fun, especially when you really connect with an audience. How do you know when you've really connected with an audience? You know, I'm really big on energy. And you can probably appreciate this as a speaker, you can feel when the energy shifts when you first get on stage. And again, contingent upon the audience, people are feeling you out. They want to know, Are you a subject matter expert? Are you excited to be there? What's your level of enthusiasm to present to the audience. And for me, a lot of it was being able to open myself up to be vulnerable to share messages. And you can sense when the energy swings in your favor. And it's like nothing I've ever experienced before.   Michael Hingson  13:20 Yeah, when you really establish that connection, you know it, the trick is you learn what the audience reacts to or doesn't react to. And when you get those reactions, and you get what you expect to happen based on what you're saying. And know you're connected. It just enhances what you do. And it makes it all the better. And it grows on both   Rhett Burden  13:42 sides. Absolutely. Absolutely.   Michael Hingson  13:45 It is so much fun to have that kind of really good connection with an audience. Well, so when you got out of well, let me ask you this first craniosynostosis Yeah, is something that you had? Is it something that affects you yet today? Or is there any kind of issue with it? Or is it just kind of you have it, it's in your past, but it isn't something that you need to deal with on on a daily basis or any kind of basis today?   Rhett Burden  14:12 You know, that's a great question. I would say that it is forever a part of me. I am not in any physical pain because of the procedure because of the the incision or the scar that's been left. But it is interesting when I touch my head when I get like a hair cut, and you have to be very mindful. For me, if I'm telling a barber that you'll notice that my head is not necessarily round or flat and, you know, just please be mindful of my incision. This is maybe a little odd, but sometimes I find myself knocking on the lump or bump that's on my head where the incision starts, just because it makes a hollow sound. So But I'm very fortunate that I am not in any physical pain. But it's definitely there. I notice it. But I'm also very proud of it. Because if the doctors were not successful again, I don't know how my life would have turned out.   Michael Hingson  15:15 Well, have you ever said whenever the discussion has come up? Yeah, but you should see the other guy.   Rhett Burden  15:22 You know what I'll have to incorporate that I have not thought to do that. I'll have to incorporate that in there.   Michael Hingson  15:29 Yeah, you see the other guy. But oh, you know, it is so easy to get so frustrated just because in one way or another, some of us look different. But it is so important to have a sense of humor and not let it get in the way. So I'm really excited that you're you're dealing with something that clearly is a little bit of a difference for you. Absolutely. But you deal with it, and it is just part of your life, and you move forward.   Rhett Burden  15:59 Absolutely. Now, when I was younger, in school, I was othered a bit because of it. But I must say growing up during that timeframe in the 80s. In just knowing that even though things may have been a little hurtful, I don't think the teasing was meant to be mean spirited. It was just the nature of the beast when you were in middle school or in high school. But you could always laugh about it afterwards. And if you were playing the dozens with someone, if you were laughing and joking, it didn't escalate. Sometimes someone had a funnier joke than you. And then it sort of died down from there. So I'm very, very fortunate because it helps you develop thick skin. And to let you know that things really aren't that serious. Most things in life. You are in control of how you respond, not necessarily what happened to you. And the way in which you respond dictates how people will treat you and interact with you afterwards. So I've been very, very fortunate to have enough self confidence and enough self love to know that sometimes jokes are funny. I don't mind being the butt of say a joke, because I've never felt it was mean spirited with the intent to do real harm. It was just a part of the culture at that time.   Michael Hingson  17:22 You bring up a really good point, there are things that we don't have control over. And I talk a lot about, of course, the World Trade Center. And I've learned along the way that we didn't, of course have control over the World Trade Center. No matter what happens you we didn't have control over that. And we don't have control over how other people deal with what happened on September 11. And we don't have control necessarily over what happened to us that day. But we have absolute control over how we choose to deal with it. It's all a matter of choice.   Rhett Burden  17:58 You're absolutely, absolutely I mean, you have such an incredible story. And knowing that you were part of something that involves a national tragedy, and that you have sort of flipped the script, or the story on its head, I think is a beautiful thing. And I'm sure it has served you extremely well as you've shared your story, and even coached others that may not feel the same way you do.   Michael Hingson  18:22 Well, and in so many ways things come up being blind having happening to be blind my entire life. I didn't have control over that happening. But again, I have control over how I deal with it. I have control over how I choose to learn or not. And I hope that I do choose to learn and to progress and move forward and not let that be a negative factor in my life just as as you're talking about.   Rhett Burden  18:52 Absolutely. Absolutely.   Michael Hingson  18:56 So what did you do after college?   Rhett Burden  19:00 So after college, after graduating from University of Maryland, Eastern Shore, I was very fortunate that the university offered me my first professional role. I had been in pair of professional roles or, you know, odd jobs here and there through high school. It was a different time when you needed a workers permit and you can only work a certain amount of hours. I started off working in for the university and the Division of Student Affairs and I was working in residential communities. I was wanting a dorm. It was a great experience. And then I immediately started grad school in conflict analysis and dispute resolution at a neighboring institution, Saulsbury University.   Michael Hingson  19:47 And so what else did you do there?   Rhett Burden  19:50 So I one of the interesting things is we were a part of I believe the beta cohort. The institution had just got its accreditation to have the program the conflict analysis and dispute resolution program known as cater. And we were part of that second cohort. And it was, it was an amazing experience to be a part of that cohort model, where there were about 30 of us that started and I think 28 or 29 of us finished, to build community with folks to share in an experience where we were so new, and to be a part of a program that was new to the university that has since made amazing strides. And at one point, I thought that before I became a dei practitioner, I really had ambitions to be a sex and marriage therapist. That was odd. My sort of the genesis of that story is I used to watch the show Masters of Sex. I think it came on Showtime. And I was always intrigued with the history with a science behind it. And I've always been fascinated by relationship and relationship dynamics. My life obviously took a different turn. But Salisbury University was was a great academic experience. And it was one of the most important experiences of my life because I met my partner, my wife of umpteenth years, we met being a part of the same cohort at Salisbury University. So that place will always hold a special place in my heart for who would allow me to meet.   Michael Hingson  21:32 So how long have y'all been married? Now?   Rhett Burden  21:34 You know, what if my mental math serves me correctly, about eight years, we have been together for over a decade, but married for eight. So I would not have found my wife had I not been at Saulsbury. And had I not been part of that cater program. Any children? We do we have one beautiful, amazing, talented, special little girl, she will be to later this year. And having the privilege to be a father. To be a girl dad, and to share that responsibility with my best friend is is truly special, and something that I don't take for granted.   Michael Hingson  22:27 Well, sounds like you'll bring bring her up well, and of course, there'll be all sorts of challenges along the way.   Rhett Burden  22:35 I'm sure.   Michael Hingson  22:39 But again, those are those are things that one has to deal with, and you can but again, it's interesting what came to mind when you said that you met your wife? And at the at the job? Again, it's all about choices, isn't it?   Rhett Burden  22:56 Absolutely best choice I ever made going to Solsbury who would have thought that not only would I leave with a degree, but I would leave with my life partner. Amazing, amazing decision.   Michael Hingson  23:09 I love to think from time to time about what I've done in my life, what's happened in my life and can trace everything back to choices. Absolutely. And it could have gone so many different ways at so many different times. Even after September 11. The next day, my wife said, you want to contact Guide Dogs for the Blind where you've gotten your dogs, and let them know that you were in the World Trade Center made it up because some people have visited you from there. And I never would have thought of that. But the result of that was that that's just me. And I wouldn't have necessarily thought of it. But she did. And the result was that they said gee, can we put a little article out about you? And that just broke the whole dam of getting all sorts of visibility in the media and all sorts of other things happened. But all the way in, in what we do, and in my life, all the choices that I made, I can trace what I've done back, are there things I could have done differently? Sure. That maybe I should have done differently, probably. But you know, you can't go back after the fact and just beat yourself up over things. I love to say I used to say I'm my worst my I'm my worst critic, and I realized that's the wrong thing to say. I'm my best teacher, because because I'm the one that has to teach me. And when I look at choices and evaluate and make a choice. Hopefully it's the right one. But either way, I made the choice and I can't be ashamed of that.   Rhett Burden  24:44 Absolutely. It's amazing to hear you tell that story, not just for the revelation that you had but to think the catalyst for you and the success that you had started off with a conversation from your wife and this suggestion He absolutely beautiful. And I'm sure you are very grateful for that conversation with that suggestion.   Michael Hingson  25:08 Sure. Well, of course, it goes back further because we decided to move from California to New Jersey in the first place in 1996, and so many other choices along the way. And I think it's great to be able to think back of all the things that I've done, and the choices that I made, because I then eventually get to the point of saying, Now, what do I do and what can I learn? And what have I learned that I can use going forward? And I think that all too often, we never take the time to be that introspective and something that we all should do, because it will help us and guide us to with what we should do next.   Rhett Burden  25:50 Absolutely. I'm in full agreement.   Michael Hingson  25:54 So here's something that we really need to do more of. So anyway, from Solsbury, what did you do? So from Saulsbury,   Rhett Burden  26:01 I got to the master's degree, met my partner. And we decided that we were both working for separate universities. And my wife got bit by the textbook very early on, and had an opportunity to work at Facebook. And it would cause it required us to leave Maryland and to come out to California. This happened shortly after we got married and came back from our honeymoon. And we've been in California for the past seven years, all because my wife decided to take a chance on herself. She believed in herself. And she invested in herself, which is why she got the role at Facebook. And for me wanting to follow her lead to support her to champion the things that she was doing and to say, You know what, it's time for a different experience. We are taking on a new level in life. And I'd love for us to do that in California.   Michael Hingson  27:06 So how's that going?   Rhett Burden  27:08 It's going extremely well, you know, the initial sticker shock of San Francisco was a lot coming from Maryland to the bay. You know, everything from the cost of milk to gas was exponentially higher. And that was a little shocking at first when, you know, I had lived in the Maryland, DC Virginia area my whole life and things were expensive, but not that expensive. And having worked at a couple of universities while I've been in California to where I am now. It has it's been such an amazing journey. And I'm so glad that we took that leap of faith to come this way to come westward.   Michael Hingson  27:52 So what universities in California, yeah,   Rhett Burden  27:55 I spent some time at Menlo College and Palo Alto. also spend time at Academy of Art University. I've done a lot of dei work with several different associations, sort of under the umbrella of this college of the university system. And now I work in a nonprofit. So you know, I'm forever grateful I was a higher ed practitioner, for almost 15 years loved my time there. There's something energizing about being around college students about being in that environment. And now I work for a nonprofit, and I'm excited. I'm just so thrilled and excited with the opportunity I have for you to lead our dei be initiatives and to work collaboratively with our board and our CEO, to ensure that we have an equitable workplace, where we are diverse, we leverage our diversity so that we are inclusive, and that we create an environment where everyone belongs. So big job, but I'm definitely up for the challenge.   Michael Hingson  29:00 And what is your wife doing these days?   Rhett Burden  29:03 Well, my wife has one of the most important jobs and that is caretaker, Matt Yeah, my my wife helps to take care of our daughter. She also has a podcast. And she is an entrepreneur. So in supporting her entrepreneurial efforts, seeing her podcast thrive and of course, the most important job of mothering and being of our child and being the best partner that   Michael Hingson  29:30 she can be. So she has left Facebook. She has   Rhett Burden  29:34 she is no longer at Facebook or meta by that journey has ended. Yeah, but it's it was a great opportunity and experience.   Michael Hingson  29:45 So what is her podcast about?   Rhett Burden  29:47 Yeah, so my wife's podcast is entitled cultivating her space. She is the co host and co founder of the podcast with a clinician Her name is Dr. Donna And the podcast is all about uplifting women of color, to share experiences, to, to lift up voices and to tell stories that are not widely known or needs, or have never been told, and to provide community for women of color. So very proud of her and those efforts.   Michael Hingson  30:23 That's pretty exciting. So I probably wouldn't be a good volunteer to be on it. But I'm very excited about it. It's, it's great that she's doing that and that she and the doctor are making a very successful podcast. That's cool.   Rhett Burden  30:37 Absolutely. Thank you so much.   Michael Hingson  30:41 And we can hardly wait to hear about your daughter going on the podcast, you know, that should happen soon.   Rhett Burden  30:47 Yeah, you know, very early on. She was a guest that, you know, she was a she wasn't internal guests. But my wife was recording during the pregnancy. And then there were a few episodes where she had to record and you can hear my daughter in the background, making sure that she got her five minutes of fame and stardom. So yeah, I can't wait for her to be her own independent guests   Michael Hingson  31:13 have to have opinions. You know,   Rhett Burden  31:14 that's true. Very, very true.   Michael Hingson  31:17 So what's the nonprofit that you're working at? Tell me about that, if you would,   Rhett Burden  31:21 yeah. So the name of the nonprofit is compass Family Services. It's been in existence over 100 years in San Francisco. And the goal of the nonprofit is to end family homelessness and to help families achieve self sufficiency. I've been there for about seven months, it's been a really great experience. I've really enjoyed having the opportunity to work at the nonprofit, there are amazing people there doing trauma informed work every day, and giving back to the community trying to help the unhoused population in San Francisco, which is all in the 1000s about 8000 folks and doing what we can along with another without, along with so many other amazing organizations trying to help in the homelessness crisis in our city.   Michael Hingson  32:11 So what do you do? How does all that work?   Rhett Burden  32:15 Yeah, well, you know, I, as the director of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging at the job, I always like to center the folks that I work with, I may have a fancy title, I may be considered a senior leader, but the organization is nothing and I am nothing without the people that are on the ground doing the hard work. We have case, workers, we have case managers, therapists, childcare professionals, they are truly the heroes at Compass. Working with folks that have experienced trauma that are experiencing homelessness, that have mental health challenges that have substance abuse challenges, and the work they do every single day to help find housing, to help get folks set up with jobs, to take care of children is is truly remarkable. And again, though I lead our D E IB efforts, for me, I am nothing without them. Because they are the heart of the organization.   Michael Hingson  33:19 So in the the things that you do, I kind of imagined the answer to this. But is there a faith component? Well,   Rhett Burden  33:30 I would say faith is sure, yes, I mean, there is the faith that the organization has put in me to lead our efforts to be the tip of the spear or they handed the ship. But everything needs to be collaborative. I'd like to bring ideas to the table and to co design them with the folks that I work with whether they're in the C suite or their frontline personnel. Because I see myself as one cog in the wheel of compass that makes the organization go.   Michael Hingson  34:02 Well, and it should be a team effort by any definition. The fact is that anytime someone thinks they're it, it's so unfortunate that yeah, you you know what I'm saying? Absolutely not the way to do it. And so it should be collaborative. And it's great to really discover the whole concept of teamwork, isn't it?   Rhett Burden  34:26 Absolutely. Absolutely. I'd like to consider myself a culture add. Folks have been very kind again, I'm in my organizational infancy. But I'd like to think that we are having an impact. And again, I never want to miss an opportunity to uplift of the folks that have preceded me. The folks that have had a longer Jeopardy than I have and that are doing the work of serving our clients every day.   Michael Hingson  34:54 So dealing with dei B, especially the whole idea of diversity inclusion and so on, I would probably be a little remiss not to at least ask the concept of conceptual question about a lot of us who happen to have a disability, whether it be physical or not, tend to tend to feel that diversity has left disabilities completely out of the scheme of things. If you ask the average person, what does diversity mean? Or what's a diverse environment, they'll talk about race, they'll talk about gender or sexual orientation, so on. And even the experts don't tend to talk about disabilities as part of that. How do you deal with that? Or how do we learn? And as a more general question, how do we change that conversation? So that the 25% of all people who are left out because they have a disability get included in the conversation and truly have seats at the table?   Rhett Burden  35:57 Well, I think you're absolutely right. So let me uplift what you said. And as a practitioner and speaking on behalf of the community of practitioners, you're right, we all have to do a better job and centering, disability accessibility and ensuring that we are inclusive in all of our efforts. I think that far too often. When you are dealing with folks that have physical, visible disabilities, it is a little easier to ensure that they're included. And it is drawn to your attention more. But a lot of that deals with the fact that we are not centering our practice around ensuring that all communities that have been marginalized, all communities that have no voice or a small voice at the table are centered. So I think it begins with educating ourselves a bit more on the disability community, the disabled community, making sure we understand the compliance component of accessibility, working with our HR teams or people in culture teams, and ensuring that we are hearing from those with lived experiences and that are the subject matter experts in this area, centering their voices asking what their needs are, and how we can acquiesce to build an inclusive environment where they are centering, they are helping us center and focus on policies and practices and procedures that make them feel included or make them feel like they belong. So I am with you 100%. As someone that it's interesting when we think about disability, because this is something that even if you are an able bodied person now, you never know what could lead or what could happen that may lead you to having a disability. And as someone that was on the precipice of having Down syndrome, that at any point in time, they're still being researched on all cranial synostosis. I'd like to be mindful of that in not just the way I interact in my practice at the nonprofit, but also in the concerted effort I do or have in my learning. For those listeners of yours that are familiar with San Francisco or I know you're familiar. I am taking classes at City College of San Francisco and I recently completed a disability course that was taught by two amazing women, one of which that had a physical disability. That would, she was just so cute mane and her teaching and helping us understand to become not just better practitioners, but better humans. So I think it begins with education, that's the educator in me, and ensuring that we are centering voices of said community.   Michael Hingson  38:44 He said something that's really interesting, unfortunately, all too often goes the other way, when you said that it's a lot easier when it's a physical disability. And usually that's true because you you can see it too slow to include. The problem is that's not usually what happens because the fear immediately comes out. Oh my gosh, as you pointed out, that could happen to me. And so we ignore it. And we tend to leave out disabilities because we don't recognize that disability doesn't mean a lack of ability. Absolutely. I don't know that there. I don't have a better term than disability. But if we can change the definition of diversity like we have, then we also want to be able to change the definition of disability. It's a characteristic and as I love to point out to people in that I've said it many times on this podcast The reality is we all have disabilities, your disability leaving cranio synostosis or the the the things that other people with eyesight have your biggest disability is that you can see and the reason that's a disability is because as soon as there's a power failure if you don't have your phone or a flashlight or a candle around, you don't know what to do in the dark. Light dependency is not a problem for me. Yeah, we all have disabilities except that technology is covered it up. Yeah, we haven't grown to recognize that in reality, it shouldn't matter. Because disability is not a lack of ability, disability is a characteristic. And we all ought to figure out ways to start to deal with that. And recognize that there's nothing wrong with doing something, using alternatives to what other people use.   Rhett Burden  40:34 Absolutely. And you hit the nail on the head, we all have varying levels of ability. And I think that's where you get this big movement now with folks being more cognizant of neuro divergence, and making sure that they are delineating folks that may be neurotypical or neurodivergent. And again, just centering on the fact that just because we do things differently, just because our abilities vary, does that mean that there is not value that can be added does not mean that folks should be treated differently, but that each of us are capable of making meaningful contributions to any workforce, to any relationship and to society at large. So I am an entrepreneur in agreement with you,   Michael Hingson  41:15 we really need to learn to understand what equality means. And that's part of the issue that equality doesn't mean that just because you provide everybody the exact same thing that it's equal, because providing me with a computer monitor, or a pen and paper, or a calculator that doesn't talk isn't equal. And at the same time, it should be appropriate to say, if you don't know, what do we need to do to give you access to the computer system? Or what do we need to do to give you a calculator, or a lot of companies have coffee machines, they have these fancy machines where you go up and you touch the screen, and you can get anything from espresso to hot tea, or hot chocolate, but they're totally inaccessible to some of us. And the problem in part is that not enough technology is being made that makes sure that there are buttons to do those things as well. So it gets to be a real challenge. But we tend to not be inclusive, in ways that we should. And I recognize that it's not about people hating, in this case, at least hating people. But there is a lot of fear. And it's a lack of education, as you said, but we do need to change that conversation.   Rhett Burden  42:37 I agree. We need both equity and equality, you need both to make sure that everyone has equal opportunities and the chance that they deserve to succeed. So I am in 100% agree with you. And I think it's important that we just like we demystify other terms that disability is not a dirty word, it is not a bad thing is something that we have to unlearn some of the harmful stances and practices that we have been taught whether it's been to our family or the media, and be more accepting, more tolerant, more loving, but most importantly, more informed about what we can do to make the world a better place where all of us have access and opportunities to make the kind of difference that I know that we can make   Michael Hingson  43:25 sure it's a characteristic. Absolutely, and totally and only it's a characteristic. Absolutely. And the reality is, although it's hard to get people to accept it, it's a characteristic that we all have in one way or another. Oh, great. So you know, it is one of those things that one has to deal with, but, but we'll get there. And I expect your daughter to lead the way.   Rhett Burden  43:50 I appreciate that. I will do my best.   Michael Hingson  43:53 Yeah. Tell her it's her job. Yes. So you are also an author? Yeah, yeah. To learn more about that.   Rhett Burden  44:04 Absolutely. So early, early on. In my career, I had an opportunity to go to latonia, Georgia, to the Allen entrepreneurial Institute, which is owned by Lester, Bill Allen, an extremely wealthy and successful black man in Georgia. And being at that entrepreneurial Institute was really insightful and life changing for me. Because far too often what we are taught about money or wealth, is that you need to accumulate it and it's you know, things are better when you have more money, but not just but not as much about the impact you can have not just on your life or that or your family but of your community and the the entrepreneurial Institute into it was his way of giving back to the community to show folks What you can do, and how you can weaponize money and wealth for good. And being at that institute having had the opportunity to sit through several different leadership seminars and meeting community leaders in that area. It got me inspired because one gentleman spoke about telling your story and the power of storytelling in using books to do that. And talking through whether you are self published or you are published through one of the major publishing distribution systems like Penguin or scholastic or Simon and Schuster, that you have a story to tell, and you should do so. So early on, I believe I was 22 or 23, I wrote my first book entitled Brother please, a life book to life and relationships. And that was my introduction into finding my voice and telling my story that led to me co authoring a book with the co author that I've paid for the other five books, entitled mistakes, my life. My pencils don't come with erasers just life lessons. Um, so I was in the professional development world, the self help space. Then when my co author had his son or my nephew, we got into writing children's picture books. So written five children's picture books. One is a trilogy series called when I grow up, so it's called the Super Series when I grow up, I want to be super healthy, super smart, super rich. I that led to the last two children's books, I've written one called My melanated munchkin. And lastly, Dentist Debbie. So I've been very fortunate to tell some stories in the self help sphere, and to do some children's picture books.   Michael Hingson  46:49 So what is Dennis Debbie all about? So dentist, to say,   Rhett Burden  46:54 is about a little black girl named Debbie who is infatuated with dentistry. I think it's amazing that we have so many creative stories, there are witches and dragons and princesses and monsters in so many amazing, different works. But I wanted to send her something that dealt with occupations, things that you can be proud of things that our society and people need. And hence was the birth of dentist Debbie.   Michael Hingson  47:25 Yeah, that's cool.   Rhett Burden  47:27 Yeah, thank you.   Michael Hingson  47:28 And so when she grows up, she'll probably want to be a dentist.   Rhett Burden  47:32 You have it right.   Michael Hingson  47:36 So, will there be sequels?   Rhett Burden  47:39 Well, you know what I am thinking about writing another one. I must say, I have a few ideas. swirling through my brain. I want to write something I want to tell a specific story about my daughter, my wife and I. And I'm still flushing that out. But yes, there is some more coming. I just haven't got that far yet still flushing the story out.   Michael Hingson  48:03 Well, you got to continue Debbie.   Rhett Burden  48:05 Yeah. Well, if not, Debbie, I'm not sure if I'm gonna do a sequel to dentists Debbie or my melanated munchkin. But I am definitely not done writing children's picture books.   Michael Hingson  48:17 Tell me about the melanated munchkin.   Rhett Burden  48:20 So oddly enough, I was on the BART headed to Oakland. And I don't really remember what for. And this was a late night. And the BART wasn't packed with people which is a rarity. And I saw a mother and daughter sitting on the train in the same car as me. We were spread apart but I just saw the mother pouring in to her daughter. They were reading they were laughing they were having a good time. And this was before I had children. And my melanated Munchkin just popped in my head. So I literally wrote 80 to 90% of the book in my phone on the train ride because I was inspired by what I saw. So what's the book about? So my melanated Munchkin is all about a little girl named Kira. And it is telling the history of why she should be proud of her diverse skin of her complexion of who she sees in the mirror. And it relates back to leaders and and women that have had great success and a great impact in history. And it is told from the viewpoint of me being a parent because this is my melanated Munchkin and I am telling her a story that is articulated through her eyes but is in my voice.   Michael Hingson  49:56 Sounds really a lot of fun.   Rhett Burden  50:00 Thank you, I really appreciate that.   Michael Hingson  50:02 Well, I think we're going to have to hunt them down. I'll have to get somebody to read them out loud and describe the pictures, but we'll get there. Absolutely. Well, like other authors, of course, I have to ask this kind of a question. Do you have any kind of a favorite character or story or anything that helps shape you in the author world and just your life in general?   Rhett Burden  50:25 Wow. Well, I would say yes, I would say early on before I had a child, my inspiration was my nephew. This was the first little person that I had a chance to interact with on a regular basis, because he was my co author, son. And now because I have my daughter, she is my source of inspiration. She is my why. And I can't wait to tell more stories that involve her.   Michael Hingson  50:52 You have a favorite author?   Rhett Burden  50:55 Wow, you know, that's a great question. Do I have a favorite author? You know, what if I had to pick an author? That was my favorite, I would probably say it's Dale Carnegie. Because prior to getting into the children, pictures, book space, I was doing personal professional development books, How to Win Friends and Influence People really did change my life. It changed my outlook. And I am a student of Dale Carnegie. So I would say it has to be Dale Carnegie.   Michael Hingson  51:26 I am also a student No, Dale Carnegie. And I think that, although a lot of people say all but it's old, the language is all stilted, and so on. The concepts aren't folks. Yeah, the concepts are absolutely as relevant today as they ever were. And I don't care that the language is a little bit different than what we're used to. That's not the part to pay attention to.   Rhett Burden  51:48 Agreed. I agree with you. If for your listeners, if you've never read How to Win Friends and Influence People pick it up. It's an amazing read. And it is truly transformational. If you take heed to the lessons that he imparts,   Michael Hingson  52:08 the very fact that a guy can advertise to the world come to a meeting and we will show you how to, as you put it win friends and influence people and he fills up a major New York hotel ballroom, just on the basis of that a 1937. And of course it went from there. Yeah. And his his lessons are absolutely as relevant today as they ever were. And I wish more people would recognize the value of reaching out and being open to friendship. I've had a lot of conversations with people about dogs, for example, and people talk about how dogs love unconditionally. And I absolutely think that's true. But dogs don't trust unconditionally. Dogs, however, unlike humans are more open to trust. And unless there is something that comes along that absolutely causes a dog not to have a trusting environment, like they're extremely abused or whatever, they will be open to developing a trusting relationship because it's what they want. And even the most distressful dogs can learn to trust again, we're not as open to trust and we could take lessons from dogs to do that. And certainly, it's the same concepts as to what Dale Carnegie talks about.   Rhett Burden  53:29 Absolutely, I am. Even though I have puppies. For your listeners, my Zoom background is full of puppies because I like puppies. I like dogs who kind of hard not to like them. I haven't necessarily had a lot of dogs in my life. So you know, Michael, I have to ask, Do you have a favorite breed of dog? Is there an adult that you just you feel connected with?   Michael Hingson  53:50 Well, I have had a guide dogs. The first three were golden retrievers. The next four were yellow labs. And now the guide dog I have today Alamo is a black lab. It's the first black lab. Nice I like large, larger dogs. But I really think that all dogs are open develop to develop relationships. So fun. I'm not to prejudice. I like a lot of different breeds of dogs. I appreciate that. But I love labs and I love Golden's especially of course,   Rhett Burden  54:25 absolutely. I have a colleague or a former colleague that has a golden retriever and they just love Golden Retrievers that is the bee's knees to them. Golden Retrievers,   Michael Hingson  54:37 and we have a Kimble well I have a cat it's only I know my wife passed away in November so I keep saying we so she's still here somewhere. But we have a cat and I'm not sure that well maybe stitches is trusting as a dog. It's a different kind of a personality though.   Rhett Burden  54:54 Well, I again I want to share my condolences and we talked about this off camera about to your wife passing, and you don't want to leave your cat out, you don't want to the field,   Michael Hingson  55:06 she loves to be carried around. So whenever I carry her I say, Alright, it's time to activate toda Tabby service. And we, we have a lot of fun with it. She really loves to get carried around and and doesn't seem to complain about that very much. Thank you very much. Oh. So do you have a favorite quote or mantra that you live by? Or think about?   Rhett Burden  55:30 Well, you know, I would say a favorite is is tough. But I do have I am a New Year's resolution asked type of person not sure if you are. And for the listening audience, even if you're not, I know some people think they may be a bit cliche. I'd like to create a yearly mission statements or yearly mantras. And I am guided by this mantra and one question. So I'd love to share that with you in the audience, the question that tends to guide my 2023 is, as of 1220, as of 1231 2023, I want to have accomplished what, and the mantra that goes along with that is, I am going to be focused on solutions, not problems. So that's what it is, for me, especially for 2023, I am going to be singularly focused on solutions and not problems. And I want to hold myself to the standard when I am manifesting what I want for my life, what I want for my family, and in all areas of wellness, as of December 31 2023, what do I want to have accomplished?   Michael Hingson  56:44 What was your 2022 New Year's resolution?   Rhett Burden  56:47 What my 2022 New Year's resolution was pretty simple. It was to sit back, relax, and enjoy. 2021 was a little tumultuous for my family, dealing with some personal issues and some family issues. And I felt that I was always on edge. And that I was not taking time to sit back. Because I felt I had to be in constant motion to relax because I found it very difficult to relax almost as if it pained me to do so. Because maybe my energy should be put somewhere else. And to enjoy and enjoy the smaller things in life and to practice self care and to bring to invest in things that brought me joy.   Michael Hingson  57:37 And that's, that's cool. You've obviously each year, given a lot of thought to what you want for your mission statement and your goal for the next year. Apps in the difference between what you're saying and what a lot of new year's resolutions tend to be all about is that you are providing yourself a general goal, you're not providing you something that you can't keep, and that you can't make happen. Absolutely, absolutely. And the other part about that is you also understand about making choices. So when you adopt that it's great, because then you can look every day even and say, well, am I working toward my goal or my mission this year?   Rhett Burden  58:22 You're ever 100%? Correct? i That's the way I feel. And that's sort of why it's structured in that way.   Michael Hingson  58:28 Yeah. If you wouldn't be able to go back and talk to your 18 year old self or somewhere around that age, what what would you teach them that maybe you didn't know, then that you have learned? That's a lot of answers?   Rhett Burden  58:44 I know that's a that's a great question. I would say if I could impart any wisdom to my 18 year old self, I would say take chances take risk. That high risk, high reward. And that ultimately, I want to make sure that as you are going through these formative years that you are not just experiencing what life has to offer, but you're living it. You are living and breathing, the kind of lifestyle that you want to manifest. So take risks. Go places that you wouldn't normally go experience things that you're not sure if you're interested in, read books that you wouldn't normally pick up, develop friendships and relationships with folks that are not necessarily in your friend group to take chances to be bold to take risk.   Michael Hingson  59:41 You think you weren't as much of a risk taker when you were 18 because you certainly over the years have stepped out a lot of times,   Rhett Burden  59:48 definitely was not this way at 18 a bit more conservative and growing up in a single parent household wanting to do everything I could to be the best Son, to my mom, and to make her proud. So in doing that, you find yourself being a bit more conservative and walking the straight and narrow more than you would if you're in a two parent household if the financial circumstance of your home is set, and wonderful, if you're not dealing with, you know, food insecurity or being on house. So yeah, I was very fortunate to have an amazing upbringing with a truly Godsend of a mother. But I would tell myself to go back and take more risks. And these risks don't have to be, you know, as lavish as, hey, you should jump out of an airplane. But it could be, hey, you should expand your friends circle read different books. So things like that.   Michael Hingson  1:00:52 Do you think your mom would approve? Very much? So? Yeah. It's, it's not a bad thing, to be willing to be adventurous and to step out. And you're right, it isn't all about jumping out of an airplane. That's not the risk taking thing. But it is important to not limit yourself just because you're afraid of doing something even though you know, it's something that you're capable of doing. But I don't want to do that.   Rhett Burden  1:01:21 Yeah, absolutely.   Michael Hingson  1:01:24 So what do you think is the most important lesson you've learned in life? Because you, you, you wax philosophical. So I figured that something worth asking   Rhett Burden  1:01:34 what the most important lesson that I think I've learned, is, probably to love myself and to love myself completely. To understand that I am an ever evolving being, that what is important to me, who is important to me, is going to change. And that I need to trust my instincts and trust myself. So to love myself in a way that makes me lovable from others. But to provide myself everything that I want to give to someone else. So I would say to love myself, and to love myself radically and boldly would be that would be there would be that, that that very thing.   Michael Hingson  1:02:28 And that's not being a conceited kind of thing. We should learn to love who we are and what we are and, and if we don't like what we do, then we choose to make a difference and fix that. But if we like and believe that we're making good choices, then we should love   Rhett Burden  1:02:46 that too. Yeah, absolutely.   Michael Hingson  1:02:48 I agree. We really need to have better respect for ourselves, and kind of go on from there. Well, right. This has been really wonderful. And I'm glad that we got to spend all this time. But I would like to end by asking you if people want to reach out and maybe contact you learn more about you learn about compass and so on. How do they do that?   Rhett Burden  1:03:14 Yeah, well, for your listeners, if you want to stay connected to me, you can go to LinkedIn if you have a LinkedIn profile and just type in my name Rhett Burden, please. Absolutely. That's R H E T T. And then my last name is Burden, B U R D as in David E N. please connect with me on LinkedIn. I would love to learn more about you. I'd love to learn more about your story and find ways for us to collaborate. You can also visit Rhett Burden. That's my first and last name, R H E T T B U R D E N. Rhettburden.com. If you're interested in purchasing your copy of my children's book,   Michael Hingson  1:04:00 that was gonna be my next question. Because I think that people will want to learn more about that. And I'm going to start a campaign to advocate for finding out what happens to Debbie but that's another story. Well, Rhett, we really appreciate you being here and I appreciate you listening to us today. I hope you enjoyed it. And that you will give us a five star review especially if you go to iTunes or whatever, but we'd love a five star rating so please do that. If you'd like to suggest podcast guests and rent you as well. Please feel free. You can reach me at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. You can also find the podcasts at Michael hingson.com/podcasts and hingson is h i n g s o n so Michael hinkson.com/podcast. And as we've talked about it I talked a lot about on podcast. I I am a keynote speaker and do a lot of traveling to speak. So if anybody knows of any speaking opportunities, reach out, I'd love to hear from you for Rhett one more time. Thank you very much for being here. And we'd love to have you come back on again in the future.   Rhett Burden  1:05:14 Absolutely. It'd be my honor. Thank you, Michael.   Michael Hingson  1:05:21 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Right on time for the holidays! Elizabeth Saulsbury of Cox Enterprises, has just released her debut album, “Peppermint.” It is a wonderful, jazzy collection of holiday standards and original compositions, accompanied entirely by colleagues from Cox.Elizabeth started her career at Cox as a research analyst and has navigated her way to her current role as Employment Brand Manager. She discusses why research provides a useful foundation in her current role, changing consumer attention spans and the value of good data.She also shares her journey through the music, how she came to release "Peppermint" and what music shares in common with marketing.Find Elizabeth's album “Peppermint” on Spotify, Apple Music, iTunes, Amazon Music or wherever you get your jams. m/

The COVID-19 pandemic was a wake-up call for real estate agents and buyers alike. As the world took on a new normal, agents learned to use photos, videos, and other marketing methods to keep selling properties. Real estate professionals soon discovered the power of quality images and videos and how they compel potential buyers to take action.In this episode of The LavaHot Podcast, we are joined by Matthew Trader to discuss commercial real estate, real estate entertainment, nostalgia style of marketing, and his whiskey sessions. Matthew also talks about self-branding and why it is very important today.Matthew Trader is a local to the Saulsbury market, a commercial real estate broker with Rinnier. He's also the creator of trader real estate entertainment and the co-host of Prop culture which is housed at the brand.Key Highlights[00:16] Introducing Trader.[02:01] How Trader got into commercial real estate, a little background[02:56] What Trader did after leaving college[07:09] Why treating your coworkers with respect and trust means a lot.[09:26] How Trader got started with real estate entertainment and where he sees it going.[14:01 Trader's whiskey sessions[14:27] Why Trader chose the acronym "Tree"[15:17]Tik Tok's demonstration of why people want actual enrollment today[18:08] What Trader's show/podcast  is about and when he typically releases it[21:48] The nostalgia style of marketing.[24:03] The reasons Trader started doing traded real estate entertainment.[24:58]Relationship building and why it is important.[28:26]Why self-branding is so crucial today.Notable Quotes● “When I got out of college, I had no idea what I was going to do. I was actually into TV and film and communications.“● “I went literally 16 months, no, 18 months without closing anything. took me six months to get my license. And I didn't close anything for one year.”● “It means a lot when you can look across the people every day that you work with, and you know, who you're looking at, you know, and you can trust them, and they've treated me so well, over the years.”● “I love making people happy. I love making people feel, you know, not just laughing but just all emotions.”● “I started thinking, how am I going to appeal to that generation to my generation, because they're the ones that are going to control the assets. And that's where my growth is.”● “So then I started doing these whiskey session segments and next thing I know I became like the bourbon guy.”● “Billboards aren't everywhere, but trees are everywhere. You can't avoid me if I'm stuck in your mind that way.”ResourcesConnect with Matthew TraderLinkedInInstagramFacebookYoutubeContact: 443-614-4297.Email: mtrader@rinnier.comWebsite: https://rinnier.com/Podcast:  Prop Culture Follow the podcast the Lavahot Podcast is proudly sponsored by Rice's Termite and Pest Control.

In this episode, President and CEO of Sports and Spine Physical Therapy, Inc., Leon Anderson III, PT, MOMT, talks about AAPT. Today, Leon talks about the history of AAPT, working with his father, and AAPT's networking opportunities. Hear about AAPT's mission, encouraging minority students, and clinical research related to health conditions found within minority communities, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “We are still less than 3% of the profession.” “If you can expose a child and broaden their horizons, it gives them more options of what they can do and what they can be when they're older.” “Just being associated with this network affords you such a wide array of opportunities and possibilities.” “We're all connected, and we all need one another at some point.” “You won't know what hits you until it hits you.”   More about Leon Anderson Leon R. Anderson III, is a native of Cleveland, Ohio. He graduated from The Ohio State University Fisher School of Business with a Bachelor of Science degree in Management Information Systems. His first job was as a Systems Analyst/Summer Intern for his fathers company Centers for Rehabilitation, Inc. There he discovered a passion for patient care. Subsequently, he pursued a degree in Physical Therapy at the University of Connecticut. After graduating, Leon was selected for a two year manual therapy residency program earning a masters degree in Orthopedic Manual Therapy from the Ola Grimsby Institute.   Leon is president and CEO of Sports and Spine Physical Therapy, Inc. (SSPT) The company operates three clinics in the greater Cleveland area and one in Charlotte, NC. Leon was inspired by his pioneering father Leon Anderson Jr. who was considered a vanguard of the profession for over 40 years. SSPT's company culture and core values of providing high quality rehabilitation services are a direct result of Leon's life long tutelage by his father.   Leon is a charter member of the American Academy of Physical Therapy. He served as a Subject Matter Expert for the American Physical Therapy Association's Orthopedic Clinical Specialist Exam. He also served as an on-site reviewer of the Commission on Accreditation in Physical Therapy Education. (The accreditation agency for entry-level physical therapist and physical therapist assistant programs in the US and UK).   Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, AAPT, Healthcare, Impact, Research, Opportunities, Mentorship, Equality, Connections, Education,   To learn more, follow Leon at: Website:          www.SportSpine.com                         https://www.aaptnet.org Twitter:            @LA3OSUCONN Instagram:       @osuconn   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy.   00:35 Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I am your host Karen Litzy. And today's episode is brought to you by Net Health. So when it comes to boosting your clinics, online visibility, reputation and referrals, Net Health Digital Marketing Solutions has the tools you need to beat the competition. They know you want your clinic to get found chosen and get those five star reviews. Right now if you sign up and complete a marketing audit to learn how digital marketing solutions can help your clinic whim. They will buy lunch for your office. If you're already using Net Health private practice EMR, be sure to ask about its new integration, head over to net health.com forward slash Li TZY to sign up for your complimentary marketing audit today. Now on to today's episode Dr. Jenna cantor. Cantor is back and being the host with the most for this episode. And we are happy to welcome Leon Anderson the third he is a native of Cleveland, Ohio. He graduated from The Ohio State University's Fisher School of Business with a Bachelor of Science degree in Management Information Systems. His first job was a systems analyst summer intern for his father's company centers for rehabilitation. There he discovered a passion for patient care. Subsequently, he pursued a degree in physical therapy at the University of Connecticut. After graduating, he was selected for a two year manual therapy residency program earning a master's degree in orthopedic manual therapy from the OLA Grimsby Institute. Leon is President and CEO of sports and spine physical therapy. The company operates three clinics in the Greater Cleveland area and one in Charlotte, North Carolina. He was inspired by his pioneering father, Leon Anderson Jr, who was considered a vanguard of the profession for over 40 years. SSP tees company, culture and core values of providing high quality rehabilitation services are a direct result of Leon's lifelong tutelage by his father. He is a charter member of the American Academy of physical therapy. He serves as a subject matter expert for the American Physical Therapy Association's orthopedic clinical specialists specialist exam. He also serves as an onsite reviewer of the Commission on Accreditation, physical therapy, education. So today, they talk about a PT so the history of AAPT networking opportunities and how that branch of our profession that organization within our profession profession came about so big thank you to Leon and Jenna and everyone enjoyed today's episode.   03:15 Hello, Jenna Cantor here with healthy, wealthy and smart I am super excited and honored to be here with the Leon Anderson, who is a major leader in the physical therapy community. He is the president and CEO of sports and spine physical therapy and is also a charter member of AAA, PT, the American Academy of physical therapy. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on Leon.   03:42 Welcome. It's good to be here. Thank you, Jennifer offering this opportunity.   03:46 Oh my gosh, I've just And it's funny, right people, we still we came on, I learned that you were just in Barbados, and you have a bunch of patients there and you were vacationing, that's incredible, you are living a life. There's so many opportunities and you're living that right now. I love it.   04:03 Absolutely. There are opportunities all across the world when it comes to physiotherapy. It's known as physiotherapy in most parts of the world, and physical therapy here in the United States. But just in the islands, you know, there's just a huge huge opportunity to bring the kinds of things that we do here to that particular population, because of the all the different technologies and nuances and things that we have, you know, that we have here. So, I was in addition to enjoying the beach in the sand, I was also enjoying given our advice on how to become a more functional individual, and whatever Island or whatever society or community that you live in.   04:42 I love that. Thank you. Thank you for your service series. That's incredible. I love that. I wanted to bring you on today to actually talk about a PT specifically talk about the history how it became to be in everything So I would love to just start with your perspective specifically, and how it came into your life.   05:09 Well, I grew up with, you can say occupational inheritance. My father was the 16th person in Ohio to be licensed as a physical therapist. He was a vanguard in our profession. He held many, many, I guess positions, if you would say, locally, nationally, even internationally, he was one of the first African Americans to be on the board of directors for the AAPT. In fact, there is a, a room at our headquarters in Alexandria. That is the Black Heritage Room, and it's named after my father and one of his protegees, who's also my mentor, the late Dr. Linda Woodruff, who was just an amazing, amazing mentor, and my father, Leon Anderson, Jr. and since I'm the third, but if you rewind back to when he got started, a PT that started mainly the the PTS of color that were involved in the APTA just didn't feel that their needs were being met, you know, as it relates to our communities. And so there are a couple of different little groups, like blacks interested in physical therapy or charm, I can't remember right now exactly what the term acronym is, maybe I'll think about that. But there are different groups that they would meet at the eight PTA annual conferences. And at some point, I think it was 1989. It was at 1989. In September, in Chicago, about 90 individuals met and I was actually a student, myself, and also donna, donna, it was not a fun doll, then. Now it was done in green Howard, that we were both students at the time. And now these individuals got together and they decided they wanted to do something that was going to be specific for the African American community and meet the needs of those communities that are disadvantaged and poor. And so that's where, you know, it was born out of and we have so many, I mean, just a plethora of talented African American PTS, in academia, in private practice, in the hospital setting, and, you know, in the military, just in all of the different different settings, and very accomplished, very accomplished ones also, I mean, it's just amazing. The BB Clemens, the, I mean, the mayor McLeod's, the Robert Babs, there's just so many that so many people who, who contributed so much to this organization early on, and we've done just many, many, many things to help students and then help our community. So that's, you know, in I hate the Babylon, but that is a kind of how we were born born out of a need, that needs weren't being met by the large the large organization, the APTA.   08:08 Oh, my gosh, this is a nerdy question. Okay. The meeting was in Chicago, was it over pizza? You know,   08:17 believe it or not see. So once again, we have such an accomplished set of founders. It was at like a, a Hilton, or a Sheraton, a Sheraton Hotel, where we all met. And, you know, they used Robert's Rules of orders, it was extremely, extremely organized. But remember, for years prior, there were these little interest groups that would meet over pizza and over coffee and over tea and you know, different things for many years, at the different organizational meetings, whether it be the annual meeting, or the combined section, or what have you. So at that meeting, we actually they actually established, you know, a skeleton of what our current bylaws are for the AAPT right now, so it was a very, very, very industrial meeting. And productive meeting over that weekend back in September 1989.   09:12 Wow, that is so cool. I love it. It really was from the ground up. It just organically. It happened so organically. And it was a major need and it just grew. I love that. That is so cool. And your legacy. Oh, you probably carry it. That was so much pride. I love that for you with getting involved. So your dad's involved. Did you feel pressure at the beginning? Like how did that happen? Because your dad is just so prestigious? And is it doing so many things for the profession? How was that for you?   09:47 Well, believe it or not, my first degree is actually in computer science at a computer science degree from The Ohio State University. And what I found was that by my junior year I was doing some statistics statistical analysis where my father during the summertime didn't do my summer off. And I was at a, a facility for the mentally and physically challenged. And while I was, you know, doing fixing the computers and trying to network computers and things, I also was a transportation aide. And I will transfer the patients from their cottages, to the main Physical Therapy Center. And I found that I fell in love with patient care. Although I'm the nerdy, mathematical computer guy and logical guy in my head, I found it to be extremely satisfaction, I found a lot of satisfaction, I should say, in interacting with these patients. And that's why I fell in love with this therapy, my junior year when I was at Ohio State. So I decided I wasn't going to just throw those three years away, I went ahead and finished out my, my, my career there ha state. And luckily, because my parents said they were not going to pay for a second education, I had to do it on my own. Luckily, I got a scholarship and academic and leadership scholarship because I went to our house State, I was on a board of this organization, students together against apartheid. And I was a peer counselor, I won the black leadership award my senior year. So with those along with my GPA, I was eligible for a scholarship. And I ended up at University of Connecticut, you know, on scholarship, so that worked out great, I wouldn't say that I felt pressure, it's my father just wanted to always want me to do whatever I was I was good at and, and to be happy, and to whatever I did wanted me to be the best at what I did, and to strive for excellence. But once again, I fell in love with patient care that that that summer 19, I think was 1985. And I really haven't looked back,   11:47 I want to get into the mission statement of a PT, I'm going to read them in sections because so that way it can be discussed each part in more depth, although I think it's quite, quite easy to interpret. So the mission statement is the American Academy of physical therapy is a non not for profit organization whose mission is to provide relief to poor and disadvantaged African Americans and other minorities by and let's talk about this first one, promoting a new innovative programs in health promotion, health delivery systems and disease prevention. Would you mind just talking more on the importance of that?   12:26 Well, we just have so many different talented individuals who are in all these different aspects, whether it be neuro, whether it be neurotherapy, whether it be sports and mettam, sports, med Med, whether it be dealing with childhood, obesity, bottom line is, I think it was back in 2010 with the Department of Human Services, Office of Minority Health and Health Disparities disparities came out with all of their initiatives, and we partnered with them. And I think it was probably 20 or $30,000. Grant, but I'm not sure right now. But But the bottom line is, is we partnered with them, because we wanted to really make an impact in our community, as relates to the health care disparities. So whether it's talking about diabetes are having different hypertension, and different organizational would you call them community health fairs, or programs, we even had a program with the Patterson cow foundation that they supported for childhood obesity. Our goal is for our individual members in their communities to make an impact and partner with the organization at large and use us, you know, to help them make the impact in our community using our resources. And our net network.   13:54 Yeah, yeah. It's funny as talking right now, everything you're saying is great. My husband's musical theater and he's singing full out right now. So I just want to acknowledge it is what it is love him. And you know what life is a musical? Isn't that great? Next, encouraging minority students to pursue careers in allied health professions. Oh, can you talk about the need there?   14:17 And on that note, we'll take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and be right back. When it comes to boosting your clinics, online visibility, reputation and increasing referrals, net Health's digital marketing solutions have the tools you need to beat the competition. They know you want your clinic to get found, get chosen and definitely get those five star reviews on Google. Net Health is a fun new offer. If you sign up and complete a marketing audit to learn how digital marketing solutions can help your clinic win. They will buy lunch for your office. If you're already using Net Health private practice EMR, be sure to ask about his new integration. Head over to net help.com forward slash Li TZY to sign up for your complimentary marketing audit.   14:59 Also keeps me there, I think that we are still less than 3% of the profession. And the goal is to really expose the minority students to the profession as early as we can. So whether that means are different individuals, whether we're at one of our conferences, when we do some of the community outreach, or just someone in their own community, that's exposing individuals by going to health fairs going to speak at the local professional, and career career days, we've had so many opportunities. In fact, my wife and I, in conjunction with the American Academy of physical therapy, we ran a program called Let's Talk About program that did just that it really expose the kids to different professions until to improving their life skills and to becoming excellent and just empowering them to awaken the genius within them. And once again, that was one of those organizations that partnered with the APTA and use the 501 C three, until we got our own 501 C three, but then continue to partner with them. Because the goal is, if you can expose a child and broaden their horizons, it just gives them more options, on what they what they can do and what they can be when they get older. And it makes it makes perfect sense that if you can see yourself doing something, then or someone like you doing something, it increases the possibility that you have in your own mind that you can actually do it yourself. So when you look at Barack Obama, you have you have no idea how many, you know, kids right now can think to themselves that wow, Brock Obama was president I can be president or rob Tillman, or Leon Anderson, is, you know, high in an organization, doing things to help our community, I can do that same thing, I can make that particular impact. We've also had   16:51 visual affirmations, literally, yes,   16:54 we absolutely. We've also had many educational opportunities to help with our students. And just making sure that once you get into PT school, that you pass the exams, we used to hold many of the exam prep courts of the exam, prep organizations and courses around the country.   17:19 That's great. Yeah, it's all there's so much opportunity in this. It's a big one. It's a big one. And no, this speaks to any, any, anybody would like who is black, or in a minority, this speaks to you right away. Absolutely. And if you are wondering apps, yes, definitely reach out to AAPT. This is, this is part of their mission. Next, and finally is performing clinical research directly related to health conditions found within minority communities.   17:49 Same thing as as before, we encourage our, our members, and our constituents and our stakeholders, to engage with the professional organizations and do their poster research. And, you know, to really see, you know, what it is that our community needs, because most of the research that's done is just is or has been done historically, has been on the typical, you know, American, which may be a five, seven, you know, 40 year old white male. So the key is, we really want to make sure that we get data that lets us know, you know, what is the optimal amount of vitamin D, for a African American and living in the, you know, the Bible Belt, you know, that has this particular type of, of exercise level. There, this particular type of diet, you know, so, over the years, we've had many of those posters and the different organizations, annual conferences, and also in Chicago, Diane Adams, Saulsbury. And Vinod Rosebery, who's who's actually mayor now, they, in conjunction with the AAPT had a phenomenal he was a kid's fitness health club at an actual health club, and they were able to, to glean data on the health of our community, as relates to our kids and how they interact with an actual exercise routine. And a, a place to go that's safe, and also informative, and getting them to where they need to be. It was just it was just phenomenal. It was it was a phenomenal organization, and a phenomenal, healthy place to go.   19:47 I'm so grateful you have this research as part of your mission. I teach people how to treat dancers PTS PTAs. And we had a group discussion, one I, where we, we I pulled research and tried to find research on dancers, black dancers might be, where's that research black female dancers. And there was, there was one and it had clear bias. But it did show a little bit that there needed to be a lot more investigation. And, and then it just it was like crickets, it was crickets, when I was searching on PubMed, trying to find studies, specifically on minority bodies with that purpose for comparative data. And we didn't have in the little time I did to gather, we started talking about vitamin D, like you just mentioned, not from me knowing to bring it up. But from another black physical therapist in the room and other other black PCs in the room. Honestly, that became a topic. And it wasn't from research, it was was just from personal experience is and it's just, yeah, we need we need this information to do better for humans. so badly.   21:09 It's funny that you say that, Jenny, because one of my protegees it's interesting, because in when you talk about the academy, one of the one of the things that I think we're really, really famous for is it's an it's an N. It's been unofficial for many, many years. But we have a navigation program that helps not only students get into the profession, and get into school and stay in school, and then in addition to that, pass the exam, once you get into the to the profession, and how do you even navigate the profession. So when you mentioned the dancers, I immediately thought of one of my previous employer, employees and that one of my previous students, her name is Shane, I know I'm messing up her last name. And I think she's married now. So I'm really messing up her maiden name, but it's ojo, Fatima, I believe anyway, she is the she is definitely the TCS, the top physical therapist with the L Navy dance troupe. I think she might even be the medical director right now, I'm not going to be sure about about it. She's actually the medical director, I know that they really lean on her big, big time. But she's somebody who, you know, absolutely should be should be out front, not only giving you the information that you might need for your Google, you know, search. But once again, she's there to let that young girl or guy, you know, who's interested in dance, know that, you know, not only not only can you be involved in the performance arts as a dancer, but also as a medical or healthcare professional, or navigation program. So I think that she was a patient of I mean, a student of mine, at least 12 years ago, but our communication has never waned. We even talked as recently as last month, about her career, where careers going in and also getting other younger physical therapists and other parts of the country hooked up with her because as when they travel, they need to use local services, local physical therapy services, and whether that means, you know, a practice that they can come into while they're in that city or if there is a opportunity for an intern in a particular city where they are to come and spend some time with him. So our navigation program is so wide and it's so varied. When you look at just my career alone. I had my father I had Dr. Linda Woodruff. I had Rob Tillman. I had Robert Babs, I had at least 10 or 15, close mentors, role models, advisors, who could help me navigate where it is that I wanted to be, whether it's whether we're on Capitol Hill, doing some lobbying for physical therapy codes, whether I'm dealing with Ohio State University and their football team, or, or whether we're talking about trying to have a Howard University accredited exam. I remember I met with the president of Howard University because I was on the commission for accreditation for physical therapy, education. And I was there for an accredited accrediting visit. And now one of the people who's come in under our navigation, Vanessa LeBlanc, she is now a captive reviewer. So the reach is so wide and so long, that, you know, just being being associated with this network affords you such a wide array of opportunities and possibilities.   24:40 Absolutely. I'm just more than this navigation program. People might be perked up going, what is this? What is this? So I'm going to use some outsider terms on this. So yes, this is a mentorship program, but it's different. And it's really about when you connect with AAPT in court I'm where I'm mixing it up or saying it wrong. So when you connect with AAPT, anyone to a PT is they have a very large network of people with different expertise and you get forwarded to the right person. It's not just within the, the heads of the organization, because, I mean, everybody's doing this volunteer why so not? They can't, they can't, I'll take on everyone. But then from there, you go to this huge web, imagine like, Charlotte's beautimous beautiful web that's extremely expanded and connects you to all the multiple people that would advise you and take you through your journey to really accomplish a lot. It's very cool. And, and, and naturally expanding like you just said, with your your student, how you're now connecting her with students, you know, or people who could use her help. I think it's very, very cool thing that AAPT has going on. Did I explain that correctly?   26:00 I think so. I think he did a good a good summary job. Because it's not a instone program, what it is is right, right, exactly the way the way you the way you explained it was very, very, very good.   26:12 Yes, score. This AAPT has, has been around since 1989, as Leon was saying, and is an organization either, too, if you want to get involved, please reach out to them. Volunteers are always welcomed, there's plenty of opportunity, as you can hear from the mission statement. And, yeah, anything else you want to add on AAPT? A topic that I have potentially looked over because this is a big organ, this organization is a big deal. And I don't want to miss anything?   26:45 Well, no, I think you hit on the major things, I will say go to the website, if you have questions, then, you know, go ahead and submit them through the through the website. It's just a, an organization that I think is just very much relevant and needed to make sure that our community continues to be relevant, and get what get what it needs. That to keep us moving forward and moving in the right direction, because we're all connected. And we all need one another at some point, you never know when you're going to need need someone I remember, there was a member that was I would say he would come to the or to the meetings maybe every other year or something like that. I'll leave him nameless. But when he came, and he was actually being attacked by the State Board for a reason, that was not necessarily his fault. But because we had so many members that were involved in academia and also involved in the state boards that were able to help them out. But once again, you don't know what you need a lot of times until you need it. So just be involved, I would say it'd be involved in your, in all the associations that you can get that are professional associations, because you can glean information from from from everyone. Just because you're a member of AAPT doesn't mean you should not be a member of a PTA or any other healthcare or allied health organization that you think you're a possible stakeholder. And so yeah, I think that it just really makes sense to stay connected to the professional organizations because you won't know what hit you until it hits you. So what you want to do is stay ahead of the paddles, which is one of the terms that we use in our business, there's always a paddle coming after us at every every every point where there's legislation, or COVID It doesn't matter what it is. So the key is to be as prepared as you possibly can for each panels that come and if you can somehow anticipate what a panel you know might be booked for comps and by doing that you can be up on the current legislation you can be up on the current trends in the professor because we become about you know the current pitfalls you know, and then you're much more likely to be a successful individual and happy with your professor. I love it.   29:08 Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it and definitely to get connected with anyone AAPT like you said check go to that website. Thank you so much for coming on. We absolutely appreciate you Take care everyone.   29:23 And a big thank you to Jenna and Leon for a wonderful episode. And of course thank you to our sponsor Net Health. So again if you are looking to get your clinic found online, increase your reputation and your referrals then dead net house Digital Marketing Solutions has the tools you need to beat the competition get found get chosen get those five star reviews. If you sign up now for a free marketing audit digital marketing solutions from Net Health will buy lunch for your office head over to net health.com forward slash li T zy to sign up for you a complimentary marketing audit today.   30:03 Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media

Hello everyone. Welcome back for another episode of the Outdoor Adventure Series Podcast. This is your Host, Howard Fox. The Outdoor Adventure Series celebrates individuals & families, businesses, and organizations that seek out and promote the exploration, and enjoyment of the great outdoors. Our guest today is Heather SaulsburyHeather is an Outdoor Adventure Enthusiast and Owner and Co-founder of PNWBUSHCRAFT, the producer of rugged outdoor gear for your next adventure. PNWBUSHCRAFT is a family business she started with her husband in 2014.  They focus on creating amazing handcrafted outdoor gear that is a sustainable product that will help create years of wonderful experiences and not end up in a landfill after a couple of uses.To learn more about Heather and PNWBUSHCRAFT, check out their website at https://www.pnwbushcraft.com/You can also check out PNWBUSHCRAFT on these social sites:FacebookLink: https://www.facebook.com/pnwbushcraftshopInstagramLink: https://www.instagram.com/pnwbushcraftshopYouTubeLink: https://www.youtube.com/pnwbushcraftshopAnd don't forget to check out PNWBUSHCRAFT ADVENTURES, which is streaming on Apple TV, Amazon Fire, and Roku, and is available on Youtube. The Outdoor Adventure Series is a podcast production of Fox Coaching, Inc.

Creativity Has No Rules with Heather SaulsburyJoin us as Heather Saulsbury, Co-Founder and CEO of PNWBUSHCRAFT, artist, gear maker and Creative Captain, talks about her creative process in business and art. As a Co-Founder, Heather leads her company as a Creative Captain, hand-crafting outdoor gear, photographing products, as well as running the company. She shares a story about when she made a discovery that forever changed how she viewed creativity, and we explore some of her many artistic mediums, including mixed media. Heather also helps objects continue their stories, and loves to encourage the spirit of creativity while founding and running a business. Heather Saulsbury's Bio:I have always been creative as long as I can remember and it has taken many forms.  In the last 7 years, I have been applying my creativity to creating outdoor gear made with waxed canvas and leather.  I previously created mixed media art and I love drawing, watercolors and photography.Connect with Heather:Website: www.pnwbushcraft.comFacebook: www.facebook.com/pnwbushcraftshopInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/pnwbushcraftshop/ Host Hilary Adams is an award-winning theatre director, intuitive coach, equine-partnered facilitator, and founder of Story and Horse. She is all about supporting creative expression and sharing stories with the world. If you could use a personal coach in your corner, drop her a note.Connect with Story and Horsewww.storyandhorse.comFacebook: @storyandhorseInstagram: @storyandhorse Support the show

Heather is the co founder and owner of PNWBUSHCRAFT, a family business that handcrafts outdoor gear out of waxed canvas one piece at a time in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. They focus on creating amazing handcrafted outdoor gear that you can depend on. In fact, they want you to be able to pass it onto the next generation, so each product is made with care and an eye for detail. Heather tells us her entrepreneurial story during today's show. Her family's business website, PWNBUSHCRAFT: https://www.pnwbushcraft.com/ Subscribe to the LOA Today podcast: https://www.loatoday.net/subscribe #loatoday #lawofattraction #manifesting #vibration #podcast #deliberatecreators #Q&A #waltthiessen #sampage #pianist #loatodayapp

Heather is the co founder and owner of PNWBUSHCRAFT, a family business that handcrafts outdoor gear out of waxed canvas one piece at a time in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. They focus on creating amazing handcrafted outdoor gear that you can depend on. In fact, they want you to be able to pass it onto the next generation, so each product is made with care and an eye for detail. Heather tells us her entrepreneurial story during today's show. Her family's business website, PWNBUSHCRAFT:  https://www.pnwbushcraft.com/ Subscribe to the LOA Today podcast: https://www.loatoday.net/subscribe

Mike Max talks with Anoka-Ramsey Community College Baseball Head Coach Jason Saulsbury on having flights canceled with no notice, the headaches that caused his team, recruiting and more.

¡Rompieron! ¿Se acabó el amor entre #aleidanunez Núñez y el empresario Bubba Saulsbury?

V.B.TALKS with VEGAN Athlete Brittany SaulsburyEPISODE #37Brittany is a vegan of six years, full-time sustainability professional, and certified personal trainer. She has a passion for fitness and bodybuilding and promoting a plant-based lifestyle. She recently competed as an NPC bikini competitor for the first time.   Share and comment if you find this episode are interesting! Connect with Brittany PRESS HERE and find her vegan food finds HERECONNECT WITH Avrora  - PRESS HEREFollow Avroras journey - PRESS HEREAvrora ONLINE COACHING PRESS HERE"HOW TO GO VEGAN??!" EBOOK DOWNLOAD PRESS HEREFREE CONSULTATION (ASSESSMENT) with Avrora Pro-Fit BOOK HEREShop on Amazon using this link:https://www.amazon.com/shop/avroraprofitAVRORAS Youtube Channel  PRESS HEREThank you for listening! Share with your friends and leave a review! Mahalo!

Matt sits down with PNW Bushcraft co-founder Heather Saulsbury. PNW Bushcraft makes outdoor gear specifically for bushcraft but, even bigger than that, they give their customers the tools to have the most fun in the outdoors. Heather built PNW Bushcraft with her co-founder and husband out of a hobby and passion that grew like wildfire after she began to make gear and sell it on Etsy (it sounds like a simple progression but, when I say they attacked this thing and won, that's a huge understatement). As the dynamic duo dug deeper into the industry they slowly expanded their product line, doing countless R & D testing, and even began to host meetups, demonstrations, and workshops. One of the bigger things Heather's been trying to tackle is to open up the outdoors to women and encourage them to learn new skills, and just become comfortable when roughing it. The Outdoor Industry has been marketed as a boys club but, the barriers that exist aren't solid and Heather wants to break them down once and for all for women and really anyone who wants to get outside and have some fun but, might not know where to start. You don't need to be perfect or do things flawlessly, you just need to be safe and have fun, and that's exactly the message Heather wants to promote! In this episode of Built On Passion Heather Saulsbury walks us through how PNW Bushcraft got started and the steps to grow to where they are now, how she's been building and nurturing a wave of wild women getting into the outdoors, and her how & why behind starting PNW Bushcraft.

My guests today are Pavi Gupta, Head of Insights & Analytics at Johnson & Johnson Vision and Kelsy Saulsbury, Sr. Manager of Strategic Insights & Analytics at Johnson & Johnson Vision.  These interviews are being done in conjunction with the Qual360 North America 2021. It will take place virtually on a dedicated conference platform! The unique Qual360 concept allows for a diverse range of participants and topics at each conference, offering local trends as well as a global perspective.  Qual360 North America 2021: Website: https://na.qual360.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/merlien-institute  Twitter: https://twitter.com/Merlien  Find Pavi Online: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pavigupta/   Website: https://www.jjvision.com/  Find Kelsy Online: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelsy-saulsbury-4017664b/   Website: https://www.jjvision.com/  Find Jamin Online: Email: jamin@happymr.com  LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jaminbrazil Twitter: www.twitter.com/jaminbrazil  Find Us Online:  Twitter: www.twitter.com/happymrxp  LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/happymarketresearch  Facebook: www.facebook.com/happymrxp  Website: www.happymr.com  Music:  “Clap Along” by Auditionauti: https://audionautix.com  Epidemic Sound: https://www.epidemicsound.com/  This Episode is Sponsored by: This episode is brought to you by SurveyMonkey. You may know SurveyMonkey as a leader in feedback software, but may not know about their all-in-one market research platform. It's powered by AI technology and taps into an integrated global Audience panel to deliver insights faster, without compromising quality.  Their latest innovation, the SurveyMonkey Brand Tracker, disrupts traditional research techniques by helping companies continuously monitor shifts in brand perception. Instead of static presentations, data is delivered in dynamic dashboards. Revolutionary AI-Powered Insights instantly surface meaningful trends so you can spend less time digging through data and more time on your high impact strategy. To learn more about SurveyMonkey's market research solutions, visit surveymonkey.com/market-research. [00:00:00] Jamin Brazil: Hey everyone, thanks so much for joining me on the happy market research podcast. This is a special series that we are doing with QUAL360 North America 2021. This will be a virtual event. I hope that you can join. There is a link in the show notes for registration. This is a specifically unique event for QUAL360. The concept allows for an increase in diversity of the participations as well as the presenters and offers a global perspective. And so with that, I would like to introduce today's guests. We have two guests today, which is a little bit unusual for our format. Pavi Gupta, head of Insights and Analytics at Johnson & Johnson vision. And Kelsy Saulsberry, Senior Manager of Strategic Insights and Analytics at Johnson & Johnson vision. I would like to point out that the interview reflects their personal points of view, not those of their employer. With that, welcome to the podcast. This episode is brought to you by Survey Monkey. You may know Survey Monkey as a leader in feedback software, but may not know about their all in one market research platform. It's powered by AI technology and taps into an integrated global audience panel to deliver insights faster without compromising quality. Their latest innovation is the survey monkey brands tracker. It disrupts traditional research techniques by helping companies continuously monitor shifts in brand perception. Instead of static presentations, data is delivered by dynamic dashboards, revolutionary AI powered insights instantly surface meaningful trends. So you can spend less time digging through data and more time on your high impact strategy. To learn more about survey monkeys market research solutions, take a second, visit surveymonkey.

Bio: Denise is a mom, educator, realtor, and life-coach with over 25 years of experience. A believer in all things positive, she uses her skills and expertise to motivate and support people as they embark on life's journey. Denise has appeared on podcasts and live broadcasts, written blogs as well as a public speaker for various organizations. She uses a common-sense approach with Christian values as her way to address issues and find solutions for a better way of living. Denise is inspired everyday by her daughters Maya and Olivia. Social Media Platforms: Positive Wisdom Facebook: @DeniseSaulsburyEntrepreneur · Personal Coach Instagram: @postivewisdomorg Website: https://www.positivewisdom.org --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kwallerspeaks/message

Bio: Denise is a mom, educator, realtor, and life-coach with over 25 years of experience. A believer in all things positive, she uses her skills and expertise to motivate and support people as they embark on life's journey. Denise has appeared on podcasts and live broadcasts, written blogs as well as a public speaker for various organizations. She uses a common-sense approach with Christian values as her way to address issues and find solutions for a better way of living. Denise is inspired everyday by her daughters Maya and Olivia. Social Media Platforms: Positive Wisdom Facebook: @DeniseSaulsburyEntrepreneur · Personal Coach Instagram: @postivewisdomorg Website: https://www.positivewisdom.org --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kwallerspeaks/message

PNW BUSHCRAFT was created out of desire and necessity.  Heather and her hubby live in the foothills of Mount Baker and their climate of wet and damp is always a challenge for being out in mother nature. When her husband was looking for gear, he had problems finding items aimed at their particular climate, so they decided to create their own.  They bought a used industrial sewing machine off of craigslist (which needed a complete overhaul and some creative wiring) and started teaching themselves how to sew and work with leather.  Their items started to get noticed as they shared them on social media and bushcraft forums.  People started to inquire if they were for sale and their business was born. Check them out here.  Follow them on Instagram. Like on Facebook. 

Between Memphis and Jackson in Southwest, Tennesssee is Hardeman County: a collection of towns including Bolivar, Grand Junction, Hickory Valley, Hornsby, Middleton, Pocahontas, Saulsbury, Silerton, Toone, and Whiteville. Each of these towns are small enough, but they’re rich with history. Christine Korling-Torres shares her experience collaborating with Local Government to create trails, develop activity centers, support local businesses, and recruit growth. There’s so much to do and see in Hardeman County’s various towns, and we’re glad to hear all about it.

Whether you're suffering from something like celiac disease or just don't feel "well" when eating gluten grains, there are plenty of great options you can turn to instead.  Camilla V. Saulsbury is a freelance food writer, recipe developer and cooking instructor. Her culinary focus is translating food and flavor trends into fresh, innovative, and delicious recipes for the home kitchen. Camilla joins host Lisa Davis to share her favorite gluten-free grains, as well as some simple ways to prepare these grains. Amaranth was a staple food of the pre-Columbian Aztecs in Mexico and Peru. A growing body of research indicates that amaranth can help fend off a variety of cancers. Amaranth should be considered a functional food in the prevention and treatment of cardiovascular disease. Chia seeds were once a power food of the ancient Aztec civilization. Superior in protein quality to wheat, corn, rice, oats, barley, amaranth and soy, chia also offers a disease-fighting arsenal of antioxidants. When combined with liquid, chia seeds swell and form a gel that can be used as an egg substitute in baked goods. Despite its name, buckwheat has no relation to wheat whatsoever. Rather, this naturally gluten-free grain is the seed of a plant related to rhubarb. The benefits of buckwheat also extend to its mineral and antioxidant composition. Recent findings suggest that buckwheat actually has a glucose-lowering effect. Millet’s history as a cultivated crop dates back to 6000 BC in China, where it was once considered one of the five sacred crops and was, for thousands of years, the primary grain of northern China. High in fiber and protein, millet helps to keep the digestive tract operating smoothly and lowers the risk of diabetes and heart disease. Millet is one of the only grains that is alkalizing to the body. Oats are one of the most nutritious, powerful foods you can eat. Oats lower cholesterol, boost immunity, accelerate wound healing and improve the functionality of antibiotics. What really sets oats apart is how they benefit digestion. Quinoa is classified a super-food by nutritionists and a “super-crop” by the United Nations. The National Academy of Sciences calls quinoa “one of the best sources of protein in the vegetable kingdom.” Rice is one of the most ancient cultivated foods. Beyond being naturally gluten-free, brown rice is rich in antioxidants and minerals such as selenium and manganese. Like many other whole grains, brown rice is high in fiber, which assists in weight loss and maintenance, digestive health and stabilization of the body’s blood sugar levels. Sorghum, an ancient cereal grain that’s a staple crop in India and throughout Africa, has long been considered a safe grain alternative for people who cannot tolerate gluten. Sorghum promotes a healthy metabolism, thanks to its high magnesium and copper levels. Teff, native to Ethiopia and smaller than any other grain, has origins that can be traced back between 4000 and 1000 BC. Teff is high in resistant starch, a type of dietary fiber that benefits blood sugar management, weight control and colon health.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Did you know that preparing for a media interview is important? "Winging it" is no longer a viable option for business owners when meeting with the press. In this episode, Adam Torres and Megan Saulsbury, Owner & CEO at Canyon PR, explore why proper media training is vital to building a long term brand. Follow Adam on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/askadamtorres/ for up to date information on book releases and tour schedule.Apply to be interviewed by Adam on our podcast:https://missionmatters.lpages.co/podcastguest/

In our first Bradcast interview, the CEO of Network Solutions Unlimited, Frank Saulsbury, gives you some of the best MSP business advice and customer strategies you'll hear anywhere.  Want to learn the secret to getting a great "first time appointment?"  Want to learn what mistakes to avoid and how to avoid them?  Want to hear from a seasoned MSP owner who knows a ton about the business?  Listen to Frank.   Contact Frank: Network Solutions Unlimited (www.nsumsp.com) or by email at Frank@nsumsp.com   Music: "Werq" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Energy bars can be a great option for providing an easy pick-me-up. But, many of them are loaded with sugar and artificial ingredients.Energy bars can be a great option for providing an easy pick-me-up.But, many of them are loaded with sugar and artificial ingredients. What if you could make your own energy bars with little effort, little cost, and the reassurance of knowing exactly what's in them?Camilla V. Saulsbury's new book, Power Hungry: The Ultimate Energy Bar Cookbook, has a simple premise: do-it-yourself power bar recipes that maximize taste and nutrition, minimize cost, and eliminate junky additives. Jam-packed with the best good-for-you ingredients (think whole grains, fruits, nuts) and all-natural, high-quality proteins, these recipes cover protein bars, endurance training bars and gels, granola bars, raw bars, and more.Salty-Sweet Trail Bars, Morning Maple Bars, Flax Your Muscles Bars, Quinoa Chia Apricot Bars, Black Bean Protein Brownies, Green Tea & Ginger Bars, Greek Yogurt Muesli Bars, 5-Minute Protein Truffles, Carrot Cake Action Bars, and Sticky Sesame Energy Bars with Raw Chocolate Drizzle are just a few of the yummy recipes the book includes.Camilla joins host Lisa Davis to share some of her other recipes from the book, as well as just how easy it can be to make these bars in your own kitchen.

Whether you're suffering from something like celiac disease or just don't feel "well" when eating gluten grains, there are plenty of great options you can turn to instead.Whether you're suffering from something like celiac disease or just don't feel "well" when eating gluten grains, there are plenty of great options you can turn to instead. Camilla V. Saulsbury is a freelance food writer, recipe developer and cooking instructor. Her culinary focus is translating food and flavor trends into fresh, innovative, and delicious recipes for the home kitchen. Camilla joins host Lisa Davis to share her favorite gluten-free grains, as well as some simple ways to prepare these grains.Amaranth was a staple food of the pre-Columbian Aztecs in Mexico and Peru. A growing body of research indicates that amaranth can help fend off a variety of cancers. Amaranth should be considered a functional food in the prevention and treatment of cardiovascular disease. Chia seeds were once a power food of the ancient Aztec civilization. Superior in protein quality to wheat, corn, rice, oats, barley, amaranth and soy, chia also offers a disease-fighting arsenal of antioxidants. When combined with liquid, chia seeds swell and form a gel that can be used as an egg substitute in baked goods.Despite its name, buckwheat has no relation to wheat whatsoever. Rather, this naturally gluten-free grain is the seed of a plant related to rhubarb. The benefits of buckwheat also extend to its mineral and antioxidant composition. Recent findings suggest that buckwheat actually has a glucose-lowering effect.Millet’s history as a cultivated crop dates back to 6000 BC in China, where it was once considered one of the five sacred crops and was, for thousands of years, the primary grain of northern China. High in fiber and protein, millet helps to keep the digestive tract operating smoothly and lowers the risk of diabetes and heart disease. Millet is one of the only grains that is alkalizing to the body.Oats are one of the most nutritious, powerful foods you can eat. Oats lower cholesterol, boost immunity, accelerate wound healing and improve the functionality of antibiotics. What really sets oats apart is how they benefit digestion.Quinoa is classified a super-food by nutritionists and a “super-crop” by the United Nations. The National Academy of Sciences calls quinoa “one of the best sources of protein in the vegetable kingdom.”Rice is one of the most ancient cultivated foods. Beyond being naturally gluten-free, brown rice is rich in antioxidants and minerals such as selenium and manganese. Like many other whole grains, brown rice is high in fiber, which assists in weight loss and maintenance, digestive health and stabilization of the body’s blood sugar levels.Sorghum, an ancient cereal grain that’s a staple crop in India and throughout Africa, has long been considered a safe grain alternative for people who cannot tolerate gluten. Sorghum promotes a healthy metabolism, thanks to its high magnesium and copper levels.Teff, native to Ethiopia and smaller than any other grain, has origins that can be traced back between 4000 and 1000 BC. Teff is high in resistant starch, a type of dietary fiber that benefits blood sugar management, weight control and colon health.

200 Best Sheet Pan Meals By Camilla V. Saulsbury

The guest today is Camilla V. Saulsbury, disucssing her new cookbook ,"250 Best Meals in a Mug" The craze for microwaving portion-size dishes in a mug is only gaining steam. Meals in a mug are a perfect solution for solo dining, and they're also quick and easy options for busy people. And they are a convenient and budget-friendly way to eat delicious and healthy meals when living in a dorm, travelling in a RV or eating at the office.This show is broadcast live on W4CY Radio – (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (http://www.talk4radio.com/) on the Talk 4 Media Network (http://www.talk4media.com/).

How horticulture affects our towns Click here to download Beth Holland and Kris Saulsbury talk with Daily Astorian Editor Steve Forrester. Holland has designed a number of public landscapes. Saulsbury runs Tongue Point’s landscape gardening curriculum.

In this episode I interview Heather Saulsbury with PNWBushcraft. She and her husband along with other family members have built an amazing business featuring outdoor gear that will last not just for now but for a lifetime. You can reach Heather on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pnwbushcraftshopand on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PnwbushcraftShopTheir website is: pnwbushcraft.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/a-vintage-lady/donations