Podcasts about heal your self image

Episode 120. I've said it before and I will say it again, I am often profoundly changed by the impact of the conversations I have on this podcast. I still remember quotes and concepts from people I interviewed a year ago, and I still sometimes re-listen to the conversations to remind myself of the lessons I learned from them. This conversation with Dalia Kinsey, RD, LD, from May 2022 was extra special though. And I'm actually having a hard time putting into words why exactly that is. I think part of it is Dalia's presence, and the generosity and vulnerability that is shared, including the process from behind the scenes of this week's. Beyond that, however, Dalia's compassion for others, myself included, who have very much missed the mark with wellness, health, and lack of diversity in related fields, made this conversation all the more meaningful. Inviting Dalia on the podcast was important to me because I truly believe that moving towards true wellness and health means we must un-learn a lot of what we have been taught. Not only about what is healthy from a weight-centric model, but so much of what we have been taught about race, sexuality, and generally how so many of our systems, educational models, and structures are set up to serve white people, not persons of marginalized backgrounds. I'll admit: I have total imposter syndrome when I talk about or write about topics related to diversity. I'm afraid I'll mess things up, like say the wrong things or offending someone (my deepest fear). But I know deep down it's a privilege to be able to choose to learn about and talk about these topics or not, and I am working on continuing to choose the (typically mild) discomfort, so I can continue to learn and grow. I hope you will listen in on this conversation and hear the incredible gift that Dalia has given to the world by sharing this book with the world. I truly believe what I said, that I think this book truly benefits anyone who wants to learn about wellness and inclusion as an individual or as a healthcare provider. I hope wherever you are in your journey of learning about diversity and where we in the US and other countries have greatly missed the mark, that you will remain open, curious, and humble and continue to be open to learning more. And remember that (as I often have to remind myself) you don't need to know it all, you just need to ask question and listen. There's so much value to be gained from learning about the amazingly diverse experiences of humans and I'm incredibly grateful that Dalia shared with us via Decolonizing Wellness, but also that I was able to have this incredible conversation as well. What To Expect in This Interview: We cover the following topics: How Dalia came to doing this work, and the courage it took for Dalia to write Decolonizing Wellness, and the incredibly vulnerable process of doing so Some examples of the many ways that health and wellness spaces miss the mark when it comes to persons of diverse and/or marginalized identities What Dalia means by “When you queer anything it becomes more inclusive” (and why I've never been more convinced of this after talking to Dalia and reading Decolonizing Wellness) What Dalia wishes more people understood about these topics And much more! Who is Dalia Kinsey, RD, LD? Dalia Kinsey is a queer Black Registered Dietitian, keynote speaker, the creator of the Body Liberation for All podcast, and author of Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation. On a mission to spread joy, reduce suffering, and eliminate health disparities in the LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC community, Dalia rejects diet culture and teaches people to use nutrition as a self-care and personal empowerment tool to counter the damage of systemic oppression. Dalia works at the intersection of holistic wellness and social justice, continually creating wellness tools and resources t...

“Our greatest strengths can also be our deepest vulnerabilities.”-Dani In today's episode, I'm sharing two tools to help build self-confidence.  One of the tools I share about is a practical exercise that you can incorporate into your daily routine. By practicing this tool, you will boost your self-confidence and gain valuable insights about yourself. It feels awkward at first, but it's so worth the effort to push through the awkwardness to reap the benefits.  Enjoy today's episode! Love you, Dani

Roshni is a trauma-informed, embodied sexuality coach who helps women andnon-binary vulva owners connect to their bodies and find their sexualpleasure, power and wildness.She is a Certified Sex, Love and Relationships coach, a Certified FemaleSexuality coach, a Certified Male Sexuality coach and a Certified Jade Eggcoach. She has completed a year-long (650+ hour) training in the Sex, Love andRelationships Certification with Layla Martin's VITA (Vital Integrated TantricApproach) Institute. She is currently training in Somatic Experiencing® (a 3-year Practitioner Training in a body-oriented therapeutic model that helpsheal trauma). When she is not coaching or creating content, you can find her drawing nakedwomen and reptiles, communicating with and savouring the life force thatemanates from trees, grass and natural bodies of water… and enjoyingquality dark chocolate.This episode we chat about:

SHOW NOTES In this week's Mind ReMapping Moment, Dalia Kinsey, a fellow black and an expert dietician, joins me. We are discussing Pronoun Mislabeling and Bringing a Space of Grace. Dalia and I had an amazing behind-the-scenes conversation during her last visit, and the feedback we received was overwhelmingly positive. So, we decided to bring her back for another engaging discussion. Dalia's work centers around BIPOC and LGBTQIA+ individuals, acknowledging the immense impact of chronic stress on their health and well-being. She emphasizes the importance of self-care and stress management, especially for those who face marginalization and discrimination in society. Her work aims to help people enjoy life despite the challenges they may encounter. Today, our focus is on the complex topic of pronouns and gender identity. Dalia shares her personal journey, including a period when she didn't use any pronouns. We explore the discomfort and challenges that come with mislabeling pronouns and names, highlighting the significance of setting boundaries and learning to respect one another. We dive deep into the fear of making mistakes, the trauma associated with mislabeling, and the need for grace and understanding when errors occur. We also discuss the broader societal context, where visibility for transgender individuals is often met with resistance. Despite these challenges, we emphasize that inclusivity and acceptance are essential and inevitable. We reflect on how similar dynamics of erasure and resistance play out in other marginalized communities, such as immigrants. Join us as we navigate the complex terrain of pronouns, gender identity, and the broader quest for inclusivity and understanding. About Dalia Kinsey Dalia Kinsey is a Registered Dietitian, host of the Body Liberation for All podcast, and author of Decolonizing Wellness: A LGBQTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation. Dalia speaks, leads workshops, and provides tailored group and individual coaching. Dalia owns Kinsey Wellness and Communications, which teaches body-led eating as a mindfulness tool and joy in the way of eating. Her passion is to help people understand that if you feel like your body is not the way you want it to be or feel out of control around food, you have not failed. Connect with Dalia Kinsey via the following: Website: https://www.daliakinsey.com/ Email: hello@daliakinsey.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daliakinsey Follow Dr. Maiysha on social media www.facebook.com/DrMaiysha www.instagram.com/DrMaiysha www.twitter.com/DrMaiysha www.YouTube.com/DrMaiysha Hosted by: Dr. Maiysha Clairborne Check out my TEDxtalk https://youtu.be/iOboT5uRhXU Ready for the next level in your life? Join the Movement! Become a part of the Mind ReMapping Nation, an exclusive community that empowers your growth & accountability. Go to www.MindReMappingNation.com Interested to learn Mind ReMapping? Have you thought about becoming a coach? You can! Attend our next Mind ReMapping LIVE Training in Atlanta, and learn the tools to remap your mind in this transformational NLP/Hypnosis and Coach Certification training. Visit www.mindremappingacademy.com or schedule an interest call at www.remapmymind.today --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/remapyourmind/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/remapyourmind/support

Carolyn Jones is a Holistic Health Educator and Chaplain who teaches the art of self-care and practices a ministry of presence. She is licensed by the New York State Chaplain Task Force and serves the community as an herbalist, a certified aromatherapist and reflexologist. In this episode Carolyn shares her insights on the power of deepening our relationship with plants beyond culinary uses to medicinal and spirtual applications. This episode we explore:☀️How to get started with herbalism☀️Spiritual uses for plants☀️Medicinal uses for common herbs and spices☀️Rootworker belief systems Episode Resourceswww.daliakinsey.comDecolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body LiberationConnect with Carolyn https://www.behealed.info/Episode edited and produced by Unapologetic AmplifiedThis transcript was generated with the help of AI. Thank you to our supporting members for helping us improve accessibility and pay equitable wages for things like human transcription.Have you ever wondered why almost all the health and wellness information you see out there is so white, cis able-bodied and het? I know I have. And as a queer black registered dietitian, I gotta tell you, I'm not into it. I believe health and happiness should be accessible to everyone. That is precisely why I wrote Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation and why I host Body Liberation for All.The road to health and happiness has a couple of extra steps for chronically stressed people, like queer folks and folks of color. But don't worry, my guests and I have got you covered. If you're ready to live the most fierce, liberated, and joyful version of your life, you are in the right place.Body Liberation for All ThemeThey might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them. Live your life just like you like itIt's your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You were born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.Dalia Kinsey: Welcome to the show Carolyn. I'm so glad to have you.Carolyn Jones: Thank you for having me, Dalia.Dalia Kinsey: I have been really interested in herbalism for years, but I always felt like I wasn't a plant person. I thought I didn't have a green thumb, and only since 2020 have I realized that I just wasn't slowing down enough to pay attention to when the plants were asking for more water or more light, and just suddenly it feels like being connected to the plants has been a little demystified for me.But of course, I'm a total. Baby when it comes to understanding herbalism, the spiritual uses of herbs, any of that. So when I saw you recently in a replay of a webinar that you did for another institute that I've been just studying, like their library, I haven't even gotten that deep yet. I was just fascinated that this institute in particular looks at the spiritual aspect of plants in a way that I really had never seen before, but it really resonates with me that the plants are not seen as just something we take things from.They're not seen as inanimate. They're seen as really powerful and as teachers that are always trying to speak to us. So when I saw your workshop on the African American relationship with herbalism and root work in particular. I was just blown away, and so I'm so glad to have you here to share some of your story with us and maybe how the listeners can get started exploring some of our traditions that maybe feel a little lost to us right now. Carolyn Jones: Well, I'm so happy that you enjoyed my presentation and I'm even happier that you were interested and curious enough to invite me on so we could talk about this in more depth. I love the subject and we are all babies when it comes to the plant world. We'll never know everything. It's always a learning process.The interesting thing is, I seemed like I could kill plants to look at them, you know? Oh, wow. I went to a workshop at a Brooklyn Botanic Garden one day, and I said to the gardener, I feel so guilty because it seems like I touch a plant and dies. He said, don't feel guilty. You know how many plants we kill around here?It becomes like an experiment, but I still feel that sensitivity because for me, the love of plants started early. My mother had a rose garden in the front of the house. We grew up in Bedstuy. I grew up in Bedstuy, born in Harlem. We moved to, uh, Brooklyn when I was six, and in the back she grew corn, tomatoes, college, she had a beautiful garden, you know, a Georgia peach.So she brought all that knowledge from her sharecropper parents and. Who unfortunately I never got the chance to meet. They died when she was 16, but she certainly took their knowledge seriously and brought it with her as a form of survival. Now, when I was younger, I didn't really pick up on it. Like I loved looking at it, but worms bothered me.Dalia Kinsey: As much as I love being outside, I really have a thing with spiders. That was another barrier. I thought, if I'm gonna be spending time with plants, I need to be comfortable with everything that's out there. It's good to hear that not necessarily so.Carolyn Jones: Yes. And I'm gonna tell you, just as of last night, I connected with a neighborhood garden, the Q Garden here in Brooklyn, and I actually sat next to someone who was digging out a pot and centipedes were running all over, and I didn't run screaming into the night.Dalia Kinsey: How'd you get to that point? Carolyn Jones: I don't, I don't know how it happened. Okay. When they were talking about a garden bed that had jumping worms, I held a full interview. How do they jump? Where do they jump? Where are they? You know, because I wanted no part of it, but luckily we didn't see any worms. We did see some of, I think it was a Japanese beetle, but that didn't even send me running.But I was really amazed that I didn't run away from the, well, they didn't get on me. So that's a start. They were on the pot. So being around people, I think who. Are not fearful that way. Mm-hmm. I think some of their courage may rub off. I'm not quite sure. We'll see next week, but you know, for now, so that it kept me from gardening.It really did. Mm-hmm. So as I began to develop a community of herbalists around me, more experienced herbalists, and they began to explain how medicines are better when you have fresh plants, you know, not always dealing with the dry herbs, then my mind began to open up more and more. So over time, as you expose yourself to people with different levels of knowledge, I guess this transformation takes place that you're really not aware of.That's the way we grow anyway. You don't think about it unless you really sit down, slow down, as you said. I thought that was very profound. You do have to slow down now. In order to cultivate my love of plants, I started collecting bamboo shoots. I can keep bamboo alive in water. I have like a bamboo garden all the way through the apartment here, the bedroom and living room.It's in here and they're flourishing. So I feel very happy about that. But I also incorporate that I'm a bereavement chaplain and I incorporate plants into that service as well because I find that plants are very comforting. And I just received a, a picture of someone's memorial garden. She had lost her son.I was doing some consultation with her and recommended that she use their backyard or the area that they have. Space. They have to designate it as an altar for him and she Oh, that's beautiful. She a picture of him beautiful memorial garden that the family has created in his memory. So plants will bring peace and depending on the type of plant, it will comfort you.It will dispel loneliness. And it's no secret that you can talk to plants and if you listen, they talk back, you know, energetically. Dalia Kinsey: How does that usually come through? Okay. Energetically, yes.Carolyn Jones: As far as we are talking about herbalism and root work, there are a few herbs that are used for root work. Hiss is one, but it also has many whole body wellness properties as well.It's used for other things.Dalia Kinsey: So how would you recommend somebody get started? Because that is something that's been intriguing is how vast the uses for a plant can be, and that once you start adding in spiritual uses too, from where I'm standing now, it looks like it might be easier for me. To remember the essence of a plant when I'm looking at it in a spiritual way also.But when I look at all of the, it's almost like medication with off-label uses. There's so many different things that one plant can do. Mm-hmm. How do you start getting your feet wet with this? Or how would you recommend somebody even start learning? Carolyn Jones: Most of the healers healing practitioners that I've interviewed, and I must include myself, started from the point of view of how do I want to heal?How do I need to heal? What could I use to heal myself? Who do I want to be? You know, they ask children, what do you wanna be when you grow up? Who do you wanna be when you grow up spiritually? Not what job you wanna have, how much money you wanna earn. None of that. Who and how do you want to be remembered?When it's all said and done, in order to ask that question, I found for myself that I had to get in touch with my own mortality and my own immortality. How do I wanna be remembered? When people think of me, how do I want people to feel when they think of me? Oh, that's really telling. I worked at a funeral home for two years at the height of Covid.Hmm. So I saw a lot of who I consider our libraries. A lot of elders Pass on the kitchen is as Queen of four. I love her. Always taught is your laboratory and having the wisdom to know. Which plant to use for what ailment. Like today, I woke up feeling a little lethargic. I thought I was just a little overtired of something and I saw it was the sun was shining beautifully outside.I said, okay, come on. You gotta go outside. You can't sit in front of the computer all day. Because I had a lot of writing to do and I went outside and that was good, but I was still dragging a little bit and I had some B propolis in my bag in the form of a spray that I felt a little congested and I sprayed it.The dosage is three sprays in the throat, and I had spoken to a colleague of mine yesterday, Amy Anthony. She's was my aromatherapy. Well, she will be my aromatherapy teacher for the rest of her life, but she's also my friend now and team member in the clinic. That we manage. And I sprayed the bee propolis down my throat, remembering that she said how highly antibacterial it is.And next thing you know, everything started clearing up my energy level rose. The congestion expelled itself, and I felt myself again. So the reason that we wanna know about these things from a spiritual point of view and a physical point of view, is for preventative care. When we feel down or lethargic and don't really know where that's coming from to be able to treat yourself, or if you, you're not getting a deep enough sleep to know that you can use lemon balm or mug wart.You might wanna dream your way to a solution. So you'll drink some mug wart tea or. Use a mug board tincture in your water to enhance your dreams. Mm-hmm. It helps you dream lucid dreams, but it also, I always describe it as helps you sleep beneath that sleep. You know that first layer of sleep well, it helps you get down deep into the sleep and you wake up feeling refreshed.You don't feel dragged out. I went to do a house call yesterday and you know, she put her aspirins and stuff in front of me. She said, I don't want to take these, you know, so I offered her some Valerian tincture, valerian, and she recognized right away, Valium. I said, right, that's what they make Valium for.So now you'll not only get rest, but it's gonna help the pain. But I didn't learn that from studying. I learned that. From healed thyself when I called them after surgery and told them I did not wanna take the codeine aspirin and I needed my circulation and my legs to come back. So I had a masseuse come to the house and got a massage for the circulatory problem.And I was given Valerian teacher and I didn't have to touch the codeine aspirin. So it's just a matter of having the resources and tapping into them, but believing same thing. It's all the same thing with rootwork. And one thing that one of the authors from one of the books that I researched before I came on said that it's not logical.If you try to think about this logically, then you lose the magic of it.Dalia Kinsey: See, I wondered if that was an important component, because you mentioned that you thought about what your aromatherapy teacher had said it was good for, as you were essentially giving yourself the medicine. Does that usually go hand in hand?Carolyn Jones: Well, uh, a reference point is always good, but imagine if you just had a book. The first herbal book that I started studying from was Back to Eden. That was usually the entry point for people from my generation. And then, you know, it expanded and expanded along the way. So now I have book cases of books about self-care for different healing modalities, sound included, color, light included.But in speaking about herbs, which to me I just love them. My home is overrun with them to know that I have that plant friend that will help me be it for a spiritual reason. Something as simple as sage to, you know, smudge the homes. Yeah. Yes. Or even boil for a bath.Dalia Kinsey: What are some of the different ways to use it?So you mentioned tinctures, essences. Mm-hmm. How do you know what you could just boil and drink versus what needs to be a tincture? Or is every plant able to be basically worked with different ways?Carolyn Jones: I don't wanna say every, because some plants are poisonous, so we are just gonna reference the general look at plants that.Edible. The reason I mentioned tinctures is because for me, I love tinctures when my schedule gets so busy that I don't really have time to make a cup of tea, but I want to fortify my body so I do have time to open up a bottle and put a couple of droppers full of the tincture in my water or under my tongue to help myself along.Same way I did with the Be propolis, four sprays in my throat and changed my whole body system and the way I was feeling for the day.Dalia Kinsey: Okay, that makes sense. I tried to make my first tincture, multiple tutorials made it sound like it can be as simple as you want it to be, but it came out so bitter that now I'm thinking maybe I should try tease.Carolyn Jones: The thing that we have to know first is our own habit and our own schedule and our own ability to stick to a program, but also have different ways to approach because we change, sometimes I feel like a cup of tea right before bed or in the morning for two weeks, and then I might want tinctures instead, you know?Or I might put it in a cream. Now you were talking about making the tinctures and how it could be simple depending on the recipe. And Amy and I made, we just strained and bottled about 12 tinctures. Yesterday Rose was the most exciting one for us and she used organic corn spirits for some and I brought Benedictine to the table, which the priest, the Benedictine priest used.It has 26 herbs in it and it's delicious. Now you mentioned bitter. That's okay. That something is bitter. Bitters are good for the system. Some things need to be bitter 'cause it helps your digestive system. It helps the enzymes in your body and also it helps cleanse your blood. 'cause look at apple cider vinegar.It's bitter, but it can be mixed with herbs. I know brags actually has a line of drinks that are delicious, but it has a base of apple cider vinegar. They add cinnamon to it. And the main thing people have to remember with that is add water. You know, have more water than the apple cider vinegar 'cause you'll irritate your stomach.Mm-hmm. But you know, he used as many different flavorings, natural flavorings in his drinks. But when I saw that, I like, I could do that myself. So I recommend to people who need that little bit of boost of taste good because sometimes if someone's having a bitter experience, they don't need to taste something that's bitter as well to compound it.So you might wanna put a little honey in there, little bit of cinnamon to soothe it out just so that it'll be more inviting to ingest. Dalia Kinsey: That makes sense. If you've made a tincture and you wanna have it in water, but you want it to be hot or warm, could that destroy what you've already done or.Temperature's. Not a big deal. You can make something into drink that's hotCarolyn Jones: if you want to. Yeah. I've added it to my tea. And when I was at a conference one time at a workshop on tincture, I was amazed we were taking tincture, taste of tinctures that had to be about 30 or 35, 1 after the other. We were passing it down, you know, everybody would shoot a drop under their tongue or something, and we kept it going.So sometimes I will sit on the edge of my bed and pull out my box of tinctures and decide what I'm gonna do for the day, and just take them one by one according to what I wanna do, be it respiratory, digestive, my mood. I learned that Manta was used by the Native Americans for when somebody died. Oh, sof or grief on a handkerchief.Yes. Well, to dispel spirits. Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. So, it's used and, and each culture, maybe each tribe, each tradition does things differently. So, I don't wanna make a blanket statement that all Native Americans do this or whatever. I'm just saying that as an example because one thing that is stressed in my research it said, be aware of the ceremonial practices of different cultures, how they may differ.So, you can't make a blanket statement about that. Now I want to talk about frankincense a little bit. 'Cause you know, frankincense was used in mummification and also it was used by the Egyptians for arthritis in an essential oil form. But it is antibacterial. That I was introduced to by Amy, 'cause she made frankincense water.She put the tears, they're called tears, the resin balls, and she put it in water and did a coal infusion overnight, so it turns the water milky. But you can also to speed it up, heat it. And I remember she served it in class. And I had respiratory issue. Well, really it was sinuses. I couldn't get rid of this sinus congestion, and after I drank that frankincense water, it went away.So sometimes you discover healing in the process just by trying something new, just by keeping your mind open. As an herbalist, I believe that most of my struggle and the people who work with herbs, so discuss the fact that our biggest struggle and disappointment is when people close their minds and their hearts to nature.I do believe in integrative medicine, however, when you take an herb, it's gonna build your body up. The contraindications will come when it is possibly say like St. John's wart. That seems to be the herb with the highest level of contraindications to pharmaceuticals. So, I don't recommend that people, you know, in my consultation, I don't recommend that they ingest it.I may put it in an oil for them or a cream, you know, add it to a cream 'cause it's great for pain and it's great for soothing and your skin will soak it in so you'll get the effect you need without ingesting it and having it have cause a contra ending in your body. Dalia Kinsey: Now when you put it in a cream, is that something you could do with it as a dry herb or it's more you make the tincture and then you can put it in a cream?Carolyn Jones: That would be an oil infusion. Yes. So, in studying aromatherapy, you get to learn base oils and essential oils and how to use them. But also I. You learn about oil infusions in herbalism and tea infusions, so that's with water. But you can also do kitchen herbal infusion like you see garlic oil. Yes. That means that they infuse the oil with garlic or garlic.Honey, you can make garlic honey infusion. I'm looking forward to doing some make and take courses. I'm especially in love with honey, you know, and that's a great antibiotic as to weather, you know, comes into winter. So you cure the garlic in the honey and then you can add it. To tea or just take a spoonful of it and eat it.Dalia Kinsey: Yeah. That's one of the few remedies I do remember in a crystal clear way from my grandma, like she never really was big into cough medicine. Like one, she thought it was too expensive and then had a lot of questions about all the unnecessary ingredients and all of the dyes and stuff. But she would say, you need the entire bulb of garlic, not a clove.She said, put the whole thing in there. Okay. And then a cup of honey. You blend that together and she would put 10 drops of eucalyptus oil and she's like, that's all you need, but when you take it, people will smell you from a mile away. But it tastes delicious to me. So I still do it and people just have to deal with the smell.Carolyn Jones: That's right. I love garlic. I do. As a matter of fact, I just had some garlic last week. I think I had to talk to someone up close. I was trying to turn my head, but I, I was saying to myself, look, deal with it because I feel great. Well, yeah,Dalia Kinsey: It really is one of those things where it just tastes so good, you know, it's doing something good for you. And then because it also reminds me of grandma, I just feel like as soon as I'm blending it up, I'm like, I'm already healed, I can just feel it coming. But I've been sitting in an office and heard my coworker come in the front of the building. And she's like, you're at again from the front. So I know it's pretty loud. Ad breakHave you been kicking around the idea of starting your own podcast? If you have started doing the research, or if you already have a show that you know how many moving parts there are involved in podcasting? From learning new tech to clarifying your message, to overcoming your fears about saying what needs to be said.Speaking truth of power. 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So she's uniquely positioned to help you with all things from how to make sure your podcast supports your business or your revolutionary message, how to monetize and how to learn to speak up in a bold and unapologetic way.If you're thinking about starting a podcast or if you have been alone to date in your podcasting journey, I strongly suggest you check out Unapologetic Amplified. Working with them is transformational. They're able to change what can be tedious and maybe burdensome process into a joyful and aligned one.You can learn more about their services at unapologeticamplified.com.Well, how do we get into some more of the spiritual uses and what is. Root work really, because I know most of us have probably heard, I guess it really depends on who raised you, whether you heard scary stories about what root work is. Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I was always told, I was raised in a very conservative Christian household, and so there was always a high concern about possession and so anything that had to do with plants or nature or.Spirits that you don't know by name. It was something you're supposed to be very, very careful with and probably stay away from, but I've always been drawn to it. Yes,Carolyn Jones: yes, because it's a natural curiosity. So I grew up in a very conservative and religious home as well. My mother did allude to spirits a bit.I'll tell you a story in a minute, but she had a book from Edgar Casey on her bookshelf, the famous psychic healer, and at the age of 10, I was reading this book. So my mind was already opened up and I remember one time my mother told me that we were living in Harlem and in a rooming house, and she saw, this is what she told me.Now, I don't know. She heard and saw the door open and she heard footsteps. Coming in the room, but nobody, she saw nothing and she pulled the covers over her head. She said, I was in the bed with her. She pulled the covers over her head and she said, Lord, have mercy on me in the name of Jesus. And she heard the footsteps turn around and run out of the room.I did. I, I had no judgment. I still don't have any judgment if that's what she experienced. 'cause she said she felt the, the covers moving back. If she had that, that's her experience. I don't wanna dispute that in my studying. I love to read books, especially by surgeons who have a certain spiritual sense about them and they talk about death and spiritual phenomenon.And in my studies, uh, with Robert Moss who died or had a near death, death experience as a child, two or three times, I can't remember right now, but I know it was at least two. And he talks about. Near death experiences a lot, and I read a lot about near death experiences. Who am I to judge if a spirit? Are we not living in a physical form as spirits?Don't we talk about souls regardless of how we are brought up? I don't know if atheists referred to souls. I've had a couple of atheist students in my lifetime, you know, in academia, and they were very interesting people, you know, very clear minded in their thinking as far as I was concerned. To me, that's a personal, my question is what do you need at the moment of transition?Have you taken care of feeding your spirit, the spiritual food it needs in order for you to make transition? Also, how do other cultures so-called primitive cultures look at death? From a child, I read National Geographic magazines and my mother would bring them home. And that was a fascination for me as to how other cultures look at death.I was like, you mean only Baptists are gonna go to heaven? Like, how do other people get there? You know? Right. Heaven full of Baptist. I, I can't imagine. You know, and also, how do you interpret Christianity as an individual? If you're living the principles? Are you living it by convenience? Like you're a Christian one moment and then you're doing something untoward the next whatever untoward is.I don't know what unto is. You know, everybody has, everybody has their own definition of what untoward could be. But meanwhile, my main concern when I'm seeking a spiritual space, Are the people joyful? Because if you are not joyful to me, your spiritual food is not working because you should not be living a life of despair.I find it hard to believe that the creator, an all knowing creator, would put all of us here to live in despair.Dalia Kinsey: Yeah, and it seems like if you, at the end of the day, you get to choose which spiritual tradition is going to feed you, which one is gonna nourish you. I don't really understand why you would pick one that doesn't really support you like in all of your identities, and support your happiness and make your life, enhance your life.You know, add ease rather than make your life even harder. But I know a lot of people are in traditions that make them feel, I. Burdened.Carolyn Jones: Yes. I watched it happen to my aunt. My aunt, God rest her soul is the reason why we had lipstick today. Ooh. I thought she was so pretty with the red, bright red lipstick and the straightened hair with the curls and everything.And all of a sudden she joined this church. And not to say she didn't look good in the natural, but she was dowdy. And by that time, you know, admiring people like Diana Ross and Gina Lola Brita and Sophie Lauren and Diane Carroll and all of them, I'm like, oh, that's not working for me. That look you have now back to that red lipstick.So I then began to analyze why would somebody allow an institution to make them change their whole being? And what is wrong with having red lips? It's a color. So I have to credit Caribbean people for showing me that wearing vibrant colors was beautiful because back in the day, we were supposed to tone ourselves down, you know?Mm-hmm. I'm like, no, but I like that right there. Okay. And that's what I'm gonna be, and I'll just have to be the bane of everyone's existence because I'm going to do it the way I wanna do it, you know? And I'm so glad that I was stubborn that way.Dalia Kinsey: Now, would you say like people were encouraging all women or people assigned female at birth to tone it down, or people putting pressure on black people to turn tone it down?Carolyn Jones: Not necessarily Black people, you know, like in the corporate world, you had to wear black, blue, dark suits, you know, that's, they never tell you, oh, wear, uh, some orange and pink and light up to the room. You know what I mean? Right. You could tone it down without wearing black and. Maybe a dark brown or something, you know, those are pretty colors.They're nice and they have their place, but colors change your aura and it helps people see you better, you know, see your soul better. What are you representing? I remember. And, and, um, sure it's not hard to find a toxic person on a job. And what I would do to counter that, to make myself feel better, I would decide what, what, especially when I was studying holism, decide what color I was gonna wear that day to make myself feel healed all day in spite of.That energy. So it gave me a constant feeling of self care, and this is my message to everyone. Regardless of what you are going through, you deserve to love yourself. And if you don't feel it, act as if my newest emotional wellness package includes salt cave, auricular, massage, flower essences, and aromatherapy to teach people how you don't need a lot of people around you to heal.You can be by yourself. I want to show people places that they can go and be themselves to heal botanic gardens. Listen to the birds. They're talking. If they're not talking to you, they're talking to each other and they couldn't be cursing each other out. As beautiful as they sound. Maybe they are, I don't know.But usually when a bird is angry, you could tell, right?Dalia Kinsey: Yes. We have some really territorial ones that like our bird feeder.Carolyn Jones: Yeah. So you know, listen to the birds singing and watch the animals, how they're handling their lives. You know, take a lesson from the animals. I had even done some research for this podcast to see how animals were used in the root world.Would you like to hear some things?Dalia Kinsey: Oh, yes, please. Carolyn Jones: The first animal that sim used as a symbol is snakes. Okay. And they're seen as powerful symbols of transformation and wisdom and healing. They're associated with spiritual knowledge and the ability to shed all patterns and emerge renewed. So just having that desire to shed what is not working, be it a relationship.Don't be afraid. Yes, it's bumpy. Yes, you could lose everything, but look at how much you could gain in the end, because the piece that surpasses all understanding has no monetary. You can't, you can't buy it. It's all internal. You need your peace of mind. I, I often tell this story that one day I was sitting in my living room when I was deep into trying to transform my life.I was living alone, but I sat down. I had read a book. I used a lot of biblio therapy books to heal myself. I remember just breaking down and crying and resolving that. The next day when I got up, I was going to approach life differently and pick up the pieces where they lay and continued the thread of what was good.Mm-hmm. About what I was doing before and leave the rest behind. And that was the day that my life began. Its full transformation. Dalia Kinsey:I do think it's really empowering to know that even when it feels like you don't have any say, that there's probably still some autonomy there and there's probably still a way for you to take control, but it's.Hard sometimes to see it. I know patterns from childhood can follow you. And it's almost like, I mean, we've, most of us have seen this happen when you train a pet. Mm-hmm. You don't have to always keep the fence locked, they'll just assume it's locked after certain point. And we get stuck in similar patterns.We don't know that we could make a change. It doesn't even occur to us that there might be something we could do to make our lives a little better.Carolyn Jones: Yes. And that happens when we, when mistakenly give our power to someone else who has no interest in preserving it, you know? Right. So a lot of times people, Amy and I were laughing about that yesterday.She said, yeah, Carolyn, you always say, See it for what it is, because Maya Angelou made that statement, when a person shows you who they are, believes them the first time. And I have joked in the past and said, okay, I'm up to about the 16th time now I'm getting there, but now I can honestly say, mm, maybe you have two times.More than likely you have one. Yeah. You know, so it took years for me to get that way because, you know, we brought up, oh, it don't hurt anybody's feelings, so, you know, but what about your feelings? Why are, do you have to be the sacrificial goat? Dalia Kinsey: That's a hard one because yeah, some of us are raised to just keep trying to be polite, put other people's feelings.Ahead of our own. And I know even now as we're all, a lot of people are trying to be more compassionate, more kind. Mm-hmm. They give people a lot of grace and realize like, oh, well maybe someone's coming into this conversation with a lot of trauma, but at what point are you going to prioritize your own wellbeing?And if you aren't for you, who else is gonna do it? Right? Like that's, that's our job is to prioritize our own care and to prioritize our own feelings. And yeah, you care about other people's feelings too, but not more than your own. And it makes some people really uncomfortable to even say that out loud or.I've been called selfish many times, and when I was younger it would hurt my little feelings. But now I'm like, oh, well you've been conditioned to think it's bad to look out for number one. Yeah. But I understand that I am best equipped to do it, and I can offer people more love and more care when I do it.So you can call it selfish. And I guess technically it is because I'm looking out for my own self. Self-care. Self-care. Mm-hmm. Certainly not evil or bad, but some of us were raised to think that it is.Carolyn Jones: Yes. Mm-hmm. And that's how things got the way they are from that mistaken mindset. You know, and, and I wanna say this, especially with women, you know, I, I was so happy when back in the day, women started burning their brass.I didn't like 'em anyway. You know, and claiming their own freedom and their own rights, because I didn't think, I never thought that. I thought the phrase old made was misplaced, you know? So what if someone decides they wanna live in their own world as a woman? You know, why should she be powerless? Why should she choose powerlessness in place of her freedom?The freedom that she has defined that she wants to have? You know, so those old philosophies of what a woman should be or what a man should be, we've just outgrown them. But whether we have learned how to navigate it fully yet is still up for grabs. But at least we're on our way. It seems to me that one has to decide what's more important.Do you wanna stay and suffer and create the definition that's killing you? Just like Judge Judy said on a reel that I saw, when a woman gives up her ability to earn money and choose her career, she's forced to live in unpleasant circumstances many times. You know? And I guess that could go for men too, but I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who had to make that choice and lose everything.'cause I didn't wanna lose my soul. Hmm. Because you can get material things back. You, once you get too far out there, you can't call yourself back. And one thing I would not want to do is die not knowing myself and not having nurtured myself and given myself the love that I deserve. So I feel that you're absolutely correct in being able to take care of yourself.And yes, everyone has had trauma and I don't think it's right for people to compare traumas. Why is the other person's trauma more important than your own? And different traumas, like what is a small trauma in your world, may totally devastate me according to my personages,right? Dalia Kinsey: Yeah. I recently. Well, maybe a few years ago.Mm-hmm. Heard somebody explain that trauma isn't a thing that happens, it's how your body responds to something that was too much for you to handle at the time. Mm-hmm. So you could be going through the same experience with a family member, and it is not traumatic to them, but it is traumatic to you. And it doesn't become less significant because someone else says, well, that's not traumatic enough.That's not big enough. You have to prioritize this other person's emotional experience. Carolyn Jones: So that's a selfish statement. Oh yeah. That, you know what I mean? To just brush somebody off and say, yeah, all right, but that's, you know, you're a cry baby. We all have our inner child that gets wounded. But that inner child, if it was abused, if you were abused as a child, that inner child is damaged and you as an adult, Need to gain the knowledge and the wisdom it takes to nurture that inner child back to health for your own good.Dalia Kinsey: How would you speak to a child that is upset or emotionally devastated? Would you tell them you're being stupid for crying or would you try and soothe them? Maybe try to explain to them that they are safe? Can't we give ourselves that? Yes.Carolyn Jones: Yeah, exactly. We, we, and a lot of people walk around not believing that they deserve that kind of kindness, or maybe they've never seen it.But that goes back to my point of opening one's, mind expanding one circle, go places that you've never been, that looks like people are. You know, growing through their pain as opposed to remaining stagnant. When I first started studying Kundalini yoga, we would meet every Friday strangers for a community circle.And I'm proud to claim at least four people still as close friends, even though we don't see each other often. But we grew through our pain and as I look at each person's life, we benefited from that time together. And we know deep down inside when we have a moment to have one, we go through the salt cave together sometimes, or another one, we had tea together lunch.But that's that connection. It's a lifetime connection where we know that whatever it is we had to come through, we did it together in that time and space. And we can discuss the transformation and we thank each other. For support us during that time, you know, each one of us during that time. So it sounds like it's all about community,Dalia Kinsey: rSo it sounds like it's both. 'cause you mentioned you want people to understand how much healing they could do alone, but then also there's a lot that you can do in community, right?Carolyn Jones: Right. It spreads to community eventually. That's how healers and healing practitioners are made. It starts from one trying to heal themselves, and then as the modalities are introduced, then it expands into this big, beautiful world.Right now, the things that are in my life, I didn't even know they existed 20 years ago, you know? But now it's filled to overflowing and the possibilities are endless. Because each person, as I mentioned, always keeps someone in your life who knows more than you do. That's very important. A lot of people wanna live on ego.Oh, you know, we know the dialogue. No, that's toxic dialogue. Invite people who know more 'cause they'll know more people and they'll introduce you to new things. Open yourself up to new experiences, worms and all these things have, because I opened up my mind to worms. So many new things have happened and so many new people have come into my life.Now I can join a community garden, which is a learning garden. So, and it just happened last night where I now know I have a place that I can go and learn. What this is, what this plant looks like, what a jumping worm is, you know, how not to be afraid of it. What other people know and what other people don't know, and how I can fill in the blanks for them and how they can fill in the blanks for me.Hmm. Yes. Because that's what makes life interesting. Not the part, you know, the part you don't know.Dalia Kinsey: I think that is wisdom in itself. It, like you said, there's a lot of ego driven or maybe fear driven posturing that people do online where they want to act as though they know everything and they keep reiterating.I'm an expert. I'm an expert. I'm an expert. When. In reality, we're never done learning. And if we are, then I guarantee you, you have a knowledge deficit if you think you've finished. And it's more wise to understand that it's normal. It's human not to know everything. And everybody knows something you don't know.And you can learn something from anyone. You can learn something from a child. You can learn something from somebody who's 102 and you think, oh, they're out of touch. Carolyn Jones: There's always something. My favorites are the seniors that I visit. I'm an elder myself, but they're my seniors. And I visit a woman who is 91 and we play phase 10 together.You know, she beats me sometimes. Yeah, whatever. And then, you know, I have others in their eighties and so forth who want to live. They want that longevity. And I was just a part of my. Feeling today was I, I lost my friend recently. We would always talk politics and health. Mostly politics because he wasn't taking care of taking care of his health.He was in his fifties and I found out he died about two months ago and that thing was weighing on me so badly today. I said, I miss my friend. I feel like talking politics 'cause it got so bad at a point we were just saying it's over. That's, that's all we would have to say about politics. We wouldn't even talk about the details anymore.You know, it is done. That sustains me when I step out of my building and someone's there for me to say, good morning too. We didn't have to wake up or at least take a moment to look at the sky and not worry about whether it's gonna rain or whether the sun is shining. Just. Look into the stratosphere knowing that you didn't create it, but you're a part of it. Dalia Kinsey: And that looks like a way that some people are using root work, seeing that like everything as having an energy or having life inCarolyn Jones: it. Yes. And I'm glad you said that because there is something that I grabbed for the purpose of this podcast, the common beliefs of root workers. One, there is one God and angels and ancestors and such support the work of the one God, they supplement religious beliefs.Okay, two, the Earth is sacred, living and breathing. It's a sacred living, breathing entity, so everything is alive around us. Physical death is not final. Acknowledging that the soul is eternal is what the root worker does, and the future can be foretold with divination. So here's what I wanna share with you.When I was in my twenties, I don't know, I was walking down the street and this young Caucasian woman was reading poems for $5. I'm like, why not? You know? So I sat down in the chair and gave her my hand. Mine was open. I didn't do it as a skeptic. And she read my palm and she told me, you know, I see a lot of sons here.I said, but I have daughters. She's like, yeah, but I see sons, you know? And she said, you're gonna have a nice long life, but you're gonna have a lot of hardship and your life is gonna begin to open up after 60. So, you know, I kept all that in the back of my mind, didn't really pay any attention. And then after 60, my life began to open up in such a way, and now I'll be 74 this year.And it's wildly exciting. Just by virtue of me speaking with you about this topic is wildly exciting to me. You know, so all the things that I would think about, I'm an only child, so I didn't have people to discuss all this stuff with, and a lot of these thoughts that we're discussing today, I usually just keeping to myself and study on my own and have my own feeling about it.And then when I'm in light company, we have these wonderful conversations that I go back in my shell, my shell about it, because everyone doesn't subscribe to it. And I'm not trying to argue about it. I believe what I believe and let you know. I let other people believe what they want to believe and, and I think that it, it is a private matter that our deepest beliefs are private matters.You, you know, and it is, our choice is a privilege when somebody shares their belief system with you. Mm-hmm. That's what makes being a death doula so important and being able to help people move to the other side, make their transition in peace. Not in despair, not with regrets, just in peace. It's great work and it's work that people shy away from, but it's spiritual work and I think that is what we are lacking a lot in society today.We've forgotten to do the spiritual work well.Dalia Kinsey: People don't wanna do what they would consider the shadowy side of it. They definitely don't wanna think about their own mortality. Generally speaking, I find people don't even wanna consider that this body urine isn't gonna last forever. That's where it's interesting to see all of this fear that people have around like working with what they see as an unknown, which is.Plants because most of us haven't been raised to really be able to recognize them or forage the way, maybe a few generations back. People might've been able to, they're afraid that they're gonna accidentally kill themselves. And it's like the fear of the unknown and the fear of death. Like it's depicted in like more than what a film, I think about how many movies have I seen where somebody mis identifies a plant and they kill themselves.Carolyn Jones: Oh, I see. Dalia Kinsey: You would think that every other plant is poisonous when in reality, depending on what part of the world you live in, it's not that many compared to all the plants that you could ingest. Nature is not as dangerous as some of us think nature is. I mean, sure nature kills people every day.Mm-hmm. But it's not as dangerous as we think. And then also, when are we going to just lean into living? Are we just gonna focus on fear of death? Are we gonna lean into fully experiencing our life? And for me, that's got to mean fully experiencing nature.Carolyn Jones: Yes. And including death. Right. How can you accept the death of your pet?But you can't accept. You might suffer, you might grieve, but you still know the pet's gonna live a certain amount of time, probably less time, you know, probably die in your lifetime. Right. But you don't wanna accept that you are in that same predicament, you know? And it doesn't have to be a predicament based on how you approach it.There is a, a discussion group that I participate in through the Brooklyn Society of Ethical Culture, where we actually have death discussions. What is that like? It's refreshing, you know. And also there is a museum called The Museum of Morbid Anatomy. They have wonderful workshops, and I took a course through them where you actually had to do an artistic symbol of remembrance for yourself.Oh wow. And the beautiful things that people are doing who are unafraid to breach and approach these subjects. Right.Dalia Kinsey: I think it's a real barrier to fully experiencing your life is continually avoiding your own mortality, because it makes you make kind of strange choices if all you're thinking about is just avoiding death.Instead of thinking about what do I wanna do with my actual time in this particular body? Like you said earlier, getting started with your healing work. No matter what modality you're using, you should know what you're trying to do. What do you wanna do with this life? And if you haven't accepted that, it's finite.I think it really changes a lot of your choices, like you hear all the time that when people were told that death was near, it suddenly made them feel free. To actually do what they wanted with their life. But if you understood early in life, like in your twenties or in your thirties when a lot of people still feel immortal.Mm-hmm. If you understand then that you are in fact mortal, that you can go ahead and take that invitation to live your life right now.Carolyn Jones: Yes. Yes, and I believe that it also helps a person be more empathetic. I think more people should either consider volunteering or have an internship at a funeral home or in a hospital, or even with people who are invalids or even visit some of these senior centers just to make seniors happy.Everybody, you know, sitting in a wheelchair and, and debilitated in some way or another, they weren't always like that. And you can't look at it as a us and them kind of thing, a me, a, me and them kind of thing. You have to see humanity as. Stand before the grace of God go.Dalia Kinsey: Right now, you mentioned before we got on the call that you teach a class about kitchen medicine.So I know a lot of people that there are a lot of people that wanted to explore more natural ways to build up their immune system. Mm-hmm. For just all the time so that they'd have less coals and you know, less inflammation year round. Yeah. But people have been complaining or saying they're concerned that alternative medicine options and herbalism in general is very expensive or difficult for them to access.But if there's some things that are just common that could be found in any kitchen that we are just not aware of how we could be using it, that seems like a really missed opportunity. So I would love to hear more about what type of plants that are around us all the time. That we're not understanding could also function as medicine.Carolyn Jones: Okay. To start, you know, we had mentioned sage and things like that before basil cardamon, like what I love about Ayurvedic medicine is that, uh, east Indian modality of medicine, there are three recognized systems of medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, and western medicine. So to that end, we can use Ayurvedic medicine because it speaks to mostly how you cook the manifestation.Stage of a disease is the last stage. Accumulation is the first where we're piling on, and then we are experiencing symptoms. That we don't really pay attention to. It's like, oh, my back hurts, but it'll be okay. It doesn't have to show up the way we expect it to. It could be some other way. Or I'm feeling a little lethargic.I'm feeling a little dizzy. Right? So we have things like garlic we spoke about before and I like to tell people what it could be used in like, I like to play a a, a game. It's called Did I miss something? So Garlic, we can use that in soups, meats, poultry, sauces, and tea. You know, ginger soups, salads, sauces, fish.Tea and rice. Today, I just went to a Thai restaurant and had ginger soup and I didn't want them to put any vegetable in other than scallions. I just wanted to cleanse my digestive system and my blood and everything. And I felt for something very light nutmeg. Oh, and by the way, I'm just gonna throw this in there.When you're making rice, you can squeeze some lemon juice in it and make lemon rice. It's delicious. Mm-hmm. Throw a little parsley. And you know, the thing behind that is learn to love cooking. You know, you don't feel like cooking all the time. True. But at least when you cook, make it count. For your health.Dalia Kinsey:Now that sounds like a tall order. Learn to love cooking. Did you always like cooking or did you have to get into it?Carolyn Jones: Well, yeah, I, I always love cooking because I, I mean, I love experimenting and I love to eat, you know.Dalia Kinsey: So you'd try cooking without a recipe? Carolyn Jones: I, I always cook without a recipe. Oh, okay.Because I mean, I feel like how many mistakes can you make once you just know the basic, once you have the seasoning down pat, and you know whether it's gonna be spicy or, you know, you experiment, you might wanna taste a piece of parsley before you use it, or taste a piece of cilantro before you use it.And also when you go to a restaurant, observe how they season their food. When I go to certain vegan restaurants, I learned, that's how I learned about liquid smoke, the mushroom bacon, and I was spending $8 for a side of mushroom bacon. I said, this has got to stop. I asked waiter one day, what's giving it that taste?So it made me realize that we are not addicted to pork, we're addicted to the hickory taste of pork. Mm-hmm. Pork has no flavor. Dalia Kinsey: Yeah, in general, when I think about it, there's very few types of meat that people like to eat with no seasoning. Mm-hmm. It's usually just all preparation. And so you could do that with whatever products you actually wanna eat.Like I do know some people, maybe they do want to eat meat, but if you don't want to eat meat, but you just are afraid of losing out on the taste. Mm-hmm. It's just a matter of mastering the flavors. Carolyn Jones: It is. And with mushroom bacon, you slice the mushrooms up real quick and I wanna try it with, there are a couple of other mushrooms that I want to try, but I did it with portobello, slice it thin, put enough oil in the frying pan just to layer, you know, so the mushroom will get brown.And I throw some garlic, you know, powder, garlic powder onions on there and said, I like to use paprika 'cause I like color in my food. And the last thing is the liquid smoke and it puts that hickory in there and there you have your, your mushroom bacon and it's absolutely delicious. Oh, that sounds pretty easy.It is. So, you know, a lot of things. It's not like when being a vegetarian and being a vegan, when it, it first started out, the food really was terrible to me. So getting back to what you were saying, Paprika I mentioned meat, dairy, fish, and rice. You could put it on pink Himalayan, sea salt salad, greens, meat, poultry, dairy, rice, fish, soups and sauces and aloe, you know, to cleanse your blood.And it also helps one move. I mean, look, it doesn't work for everyone. Delicious on poultry, pasta, salad, soups, and also you can make tea. Turmeric helps with inflammation. You could put it in soups. You can make a tea with it with golden milk. That's a five spice formula with turmeric, ginger, nutmeg, and cinnamon, and a touch of black pepper to help the cinnamon and turmeric get through your system.And that can be used with sauces, poultry, rice, salads, pasta. And you can use it in place of paprika sometimes just to color your food.Dalia Kinsey: Well, I can taste turmeric. I can't taste paprika.Carolyn Jones: True. Yeah. Unless it's smoked paprika. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a nice taste. Dalia Kinsey: Now what can paprika do? Turmeric's grown in popularity and it's being sold more as a supplement here in the States.Mm-hmm. But I don't know what medicinal properties paprika has.Carolyn Jones: Well, first of all, as I mentioned, I love that it colors the food, right? And anytime you make the food look more appetizing, that's always great. But it is also, it has antioxidant properties and you can usually tell when a spice or a fruit or vegetable is red, it has that reddish color.It works as an antioxidant, like, uh, cherry, you know, the black. The tar cherries that they use to inflammation. Mm-hmm. It improves immunity and alleviates gas. It also is high in vitamin C and E and protects against cardiovascular disease. Once again, looking at the doctrine of signatures, that red color, it helps create healthy red blood cells.And it reminds me if you wanna talk about that of beats, right? Mm-hmm. Because beats wonders for the blood and, and iron content and everything of the blood. Oh,Dalia Kinsey: I do remember hearing that. Now. You said the doctrine of signatures. Can you explain what that is?Carolyn Jones: Well, the doctrine of signatures in is when you can look at a and surmise what organ it, it will help.So according to the physical, characteristics of the plant, like the shape, the color, texture, and the smell, it could reveal their therapeutic value. And that's a whole, that's a whole study. You know, I can imagine that goes deep. Mm-hmm. It does. So you could look at maybe something like Mullen and look at the leaf, and it may have the shape, or you may see the lung, you know what I mean?The shape of the lung in there, or various other plants that might be shaped like the organ that it actually helps. So that's what the, the doctrine of signatures is about.Dalia Kinsey: That's so fascinating to me because it seems like the plants are trying to communicate how they can support us. Visually. But they've looked like that since before we knew what our own lungs look like.Right. So I wonder how people used to figure it out aside from just experimenting.Carolyn Jones: Well, that's what fascinated me about this phase of herbalism where I learned that, and I believe it was the Native Americans used to watch the animals to see how they would heal themselves, and then they would use that plant for healing on them.So really we learned, as I mentioned before, we learn. From each other. And I, we just covered snakes before, but I wanted to share with you about they're associated with wisdom, intuition, and hidden knowledge. So, you know, if you think about it, they're usually used in some type of oc cult setting. Mm-hmm.And they're often seen as messengers from the spirit realm and guides in navigating the unseen they see in the dark. Tra and cats do too. It's it, it speaks about cats being mysterious. We know that. And it speaks to black cats. You know, how many years it took me to get over that black cat thing, even though I didn't believe it, I never believed it.'cause I love black cats. I mean, I thought something was wrong with me because I love black cats. They're sweet and they're beautiful, that they're associated with luck, psychic abilities, and spiritual guardianship. I, I, uh, I don't understand when people don't love cats. 'cause I actually love that movement that they do in root work.Dalia Kinsey: How do people work with totem animals? They're more likely to have an animal around, or they're looking at the animals for notes and messages.Carolyn Jones: It happens different ways. One audio book that I was listening to in preparation for this interview, I was tickled because the author said that root work evolves over time, mainly because a lot of ingredients.For the ceremonial activities may not be available unless you know someone with a possum tail laying around. Right? So, you know, there's no telling what what can be used in and everything based on what belief system it comes from. I've had two encounters. The first time I wanted to reverse something that was happening in my life that someone had inflicted upon me, and I went with my girlfriend who was seriously into it.I won't name the religion or anything type of ceremony, but I got to see people being mounted by spirits and I got to sit with the priests. What I was told to do was, in my mind, untenable. Hmm. So, my girlfriend was very angry with me 'cause she felt like I should do it. But what was very interesting was that life had presented me with a dilemma.I had a choice of either pudding, $400 out for the work or paying my rent, which was $400. And to me, because of what I was told to do, I felt like it would reverse itself on me. 'cause that was my Christian upbringing, right? That it can bounce back really, right. If you wanna talk about karma, which those words weren't used at that time.But now I would say I felt that there would be karmic consequences, which would include me losing the roof over my head. My intuition told me this, so I left it alone and I just let her be angry with me. Yeah, so went and paid my rent and dealt with whatever I had to deal with in other ways in so many other ways that didn't include ritual.Mm-hmm. Except maybe the burning of incense in my home and some other prayers and stuff like that. Something I was comfortable with. Right. I feel that whatever root work one does, you have to be comfortable with it. You can't be scared. I don't believe in viciousness either. It's powerful stuff. The other experience that I had, I've had many, but I'm talking about ritualistic experiences, not like intuitive or psychic experiences.Those are plentiful, but this particular time I had gone to a love feast. It was African love feast, and it's there that I became a true believer in do not play or do not. Go in like now. I wasn't playing, but when I say play, I mean know what you're doing. So they were dancing, they were doing tribal dances in the ceremony.And I got up because I'm thinking as a dancer, and when I danced, all of a sudden it's like I lost, I had no hands and feet that I knew of that were operating. You understand? It was just a swirl. Like if you saw water swirling down the the drain. I was just a swirl of energy. And I remember screaming and they gathered me, and I remember I went back to my Christianity.I said, Lord, that'll do it.Dalia Kinsey: You're like, this is the demon possession they told me about.Carolyn Jones: If you allow me to get up and walk outta here, you don't ever have to worry about me again. And you know, like a dough stands up for the first time when it's born. I remember my legs feeling like that and I dowed my way right on out of there, but I never forgot.And I have a, a healthy respect 'cause it's real. Mm-hmm It's just, you have to choose if that's the route you wanna take to worship. 'cause I see nothing wrong with it for those who understand it. The problem is if you do it and you don't understand it, I believe that initiation is very important when you're dealing with the shamanic world.Dalia Kinsey: I think that's something that a lot of us have lost access to, I think. Well that's why I think who do appeals to a lot of people. 'cause there's not as many rules around formal initiation. It's like passed on by mouth, by books, by wherever you get it. But yeah, that's a good reminder for everyone to really just slow down and pace yourself and make sure that everything you're doing feels right in your body.'cause you're going to get information that way too.Carolyn Jones: That's right. And make sure that you have a trusted teacher if you're going to go the shamanic route. A lot of people are using psychedelics at this time to get in touch with that realm. And all I can say is be sure that you're dealing with trusted individuals.Dalia Kinsey: Yeah. Thank you so much for coming. God, I think that's great parting advice for everybody.Carolyn Jones: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Body Liberation for All ThemeThey might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them. Live your life just like you like itIt's your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You were born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit daliakinsey.substack.com

When I read the book “Decolonizing Wellness, A QTBIPOC Centered to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image and Achieve Body Liberation”, I know Dalia needed to be on the podcast! After this interview I wanted more, and you better believe Dalia will be back, as the interview could have gone for so much longer.  […] The post Decolonizing Wellness, with Dalia Kinsey RD, LD appeared first on Registered Dietitian Nutritionist, Intuitive Eating Columbus OH.

On this episode of the School of Healing, I had the opportunity to talk with Dalia Kindsey about health disparities in the LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC communities. Dalia shares her personal story of discrimination and how not being seen fully led her to guide and help others in the wellness industry. Dalia Kinsey is a queer Black Registered Dietitian, keynote speaker, the creator of the Body Liberation for All podcast, and author of Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation. On a mission to spread joy, reduce suffering, and eliminate health disparities in the LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC communities, Dalia rejects diet culture and teaches people to use nutrition as a self-care and personal empowerment tool to counter the damage of systemic oppression. Dalia works at the intersection of holistic wellness and social justice, continually creating wellness tools and resources that center the most vulnerable, individuals that hold multiple marginalized identities.CONNECT WITH DALIA:Dalia's work can be found at https://www.daliakinsey.com/GET FREE RESOURCES FROM DALIA HERE!:https://www.daliakinsey.com/freebundleLI: Connect with Dalia hereSupport the showIMPORTANT LINKS AND RESOURCES Get my NEW BOOK! Learn more about Move and Still LLC - https://movexstill.com/ New Course: GROUNDED - https://bit.ly/3LXfuU7 CONNECT WITH ME: IG - https://bit.ly/3ZmwMwT LI- https://bit.ly/3FSkl5i A GIFT FOR YOU! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts to be entered into a drawing to receive my new book FREE! I will be picking one winner monthly. Just send me the screenshot at hello@movestill.com to enter.

SHOW NOTES In this week's Mind ReMapping Moment, Dalia Kinsey, a fellow black and an expert dietician, joins me. We are discussing how systemic oppression impacts body image. · How do you fix your food? · Where is the part that we can celebrate, and what part of what we are doing doesn't serve us anymore? · How are things functioning in your body? These and many more await you in this week's special episode with Dalia, Owner of Kinsey Wellness and Communications. In this episode, she will share how she empowers people to use nutrition as a self-care and personalized tool to reclaim their well-being. Today we will learn about dealing with our relationship with food regarding dieting. Trusting ourselves is foundational. How we are treated as children and the messaging we have been exposed to influences our relationship with our body, our relationship with control, our relationship with food, and our ability to trust ourselves. Trusting ourselves is foundational to having a friendly relationship with food. All about Diet Dieting has been put forth as a healing tool, something that is going to make you better. When so much research clearly shows that all dieting can do is hurt you. It helps you become obsessed with food, and in the end, it leads to weight gain. It is not that it has never worked for anybody in the world. It is that it only works for some people. What it does successfully do is cause weight gain; it cause more body dissatisfaction. Ideal Weight as Dominant Culture Norms People step on the scale daily because weight has become this dominant cultural norm of ideal weight and useless BMI. All these things become background conversations in our heads when we look at our bodies. We have an internal discussion about that, and then it drives our behavior; it drives how we eat: whether we skip a meal or have the meal. Give yourself more compassion, and understand that there are two things we are trying to hold here: your body is wise, and it is best to let it take the reins, and you are in a pressure cooker, and what is right for you can change over time, and that is OK. About Dalia Kinsey Dalia Kinsey is a Registered Dietitian, host of the Body Liberation for All podcast, and author of Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation. Dalia speaks, leads workshops, and provides tailored group and individual coaching. Dalia owns Kinsey Wellness and Communications, which teaches body-led eating as a mindfulness tool and joy in the way of eating. Her passion is to help people understand that if you feel like your body is not the way you want it to be or feel out of control around food, you have not failed. Connect with Dalia Kinsey via the following: Website: https://www.daliakinsey.com/ Email: hello@daliakinsey.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daliakinsey Follow Dr. Maiysha on social media www.facebook.com/DrMaiysha www.instagram.com/DrMaiysha www.twitter.com/DrMaiysha www.YouTube.com/DrMaiysha Hosted by: Dr. Maiysha Clairborne Check out my TEDxtalk https://youtu.be/iOboT5uRhXU Ready for the next level in your life? Join the Movement! Become a part of the Mind ReMapping Nation, an exclusive community that empowers your growth & accountability. Go to www.MindReMappingNation.com Interested to learn Mind ReMapping? Have you thought about becoming a coach? You can! Attend our next Mind ReMapping LIVE Training in Atlanta, and learn the tools to remap your mind in this transformational NLP/Hypnosis and Coach Certification training. Visit www.mindremappingacademy.com or schedule an interest call at www.remapmymind.today --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/remapyourmind/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/remapyourmind/support

Let's look at how a negative self-image gets in the way of speaking confidence and the ways to heal so that it no longer stands in your way.Click here to check the full show notes

Have you ever wondered why almost all the health and wellness information you see out there is so white, cis able-bodied and het? I know I have. And as a queer black registered dietitian, I gotta tell you, I'm not into it. I believe health and happiness should be accessible to everyone. That is precisely why I wrote Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation and why I host Body Liberation for All. The road to health and happiness has a couple of extra steps for chronically stressed people, like queer folks and folks of color. But don't worry, my guests and I have got you covered. If you're ready to live the most fierce, liberated, and joyful version of your life, you are in the right place.This episode we discuss

Larissa is a queer, cis, biracial, Black movement teacher and mom to twins. She teaches intelligent movement strategies that help you feel connected, curious, and joyful in your body, and specializes in core & pelvic floor dysfunction. She is an ardent believer in the idea that connecting to your body is a pathway to joy, and joy is a pathway to justice and liberation.This episode we discuss* learning to sense joy and the full range of human emotion in your body* reestablishing a connection to the pelvic floor* the benefits of seeing a pelvic physical therapist* freedom and clarity that comes with middle age* living at multiple identity intersections and cultivating friendshipsEpisode Resourceshttps://www.larissaparson.com/Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body LiberationBali Retreat March 19-25 2023Body Liberation for All ThemeThey might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them. Live your life just like you like it It's your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You were born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.This transcript was generated with the help of AI. Becoming a supporting member helps us improve accessibility and pay equitable wages for things like human transcription. Dalia: This is so exciting. It's been forever since I've recorded an episode. Originally, I said I was just going to take a couple of months off. Mm-hmm. to just get my life in order, post covid and post finishing the book. And it is month six. And I'm not entirely sure when I'm gonna release this one, but I am excited to be recording again. I know that season two is gonna start the 1st of January and honoring rest and really liberating myself from that need to be productive all the time. I realized that I only wanted to podcast once a month.It just felt so right in my entire body. Yes. And when I was looking at what you do, when we first met, it was at the Together Thriving conference. Yes, yes. And then you were talking about pelvic floor health. So, I thought your focus was on. Reproductive wellness. Mm-hmm. and that part of the body for people born with a uterus.Right. And didn't realize that it's so much more than that, that it's embodiment work. When I was looking at your site and it talked about embodying joy, but also embodying justice, that really struck me because I realized I wasn't even sure what. Justice might feel like in the body. I'm just now getting to the point where I could feel in my body that podcasting once a month was a hell yes.Per my entire body. Yeah. But there's still some things I think I wouldn't even recognize. So why do you lead with that on your site?Larissa: That's such a good question. You know, so I was and still am really interested in and focused on doing core and pelvic floor rehab work. It's one of the things that. I love nerding out about hardcore, but what I found was, this is like the most circuitous way to get to the answer to your question, by the way.But what I found was that the more that I worked with people and the more that we kind of went on this pelvic floor journey together, where they started developing more awareness of their bodies' habits and patterns, and the more work I was doing with the folks, the more I got to this like realization that.At the bottom, if you imagine the work we're doing as a cereal box, or like a box of Cracker Jack or something, there's like this prize in the bottom of the box and that is like this body liberation stuff. Mm-hmm. And I decided I was tired of having it be the secret. Mm. I was tired of it being like the thing that we got to at the end of a series or after working together for a few months.And I really wanted to lead with it because I feel very strongly. Like, like I say on my website, that the body is a home for joy because we feel joy in our bodies and our bodies are homes for justice because we feel injustice acted on our bodies and we feel it with our bodies, and we feel it in the ways that we make choices about our bodies.And so, if we can get in more touch with our bodies, if we can really embody our bodies, feel like our bodies are our homes, then our bodies become a site for justice instead of injustice.Dalia: I love that you lead with it, and everything resonates. I felt like the copy was so beautiful the way you phrased everything.Thank you. But then I also thought, I am kind of a rare. Not that I'm a special snowflake, even though low key, I do think that I am, I felt like with my own messaging where I struggled the most was trying to give people something they needed that they would recognize. Yeah. So, with the pelvic floor, people recognized they need that.Cuz when I first heard that, I was like, Yes, I'm gonna be front and center for your presentation so I can figure out how. Stop pee when I laugh. I used to think that was only for people who'd had children, and now I realize it's for like literally everybody. Uhhuh as you get a little older and no one's told you like what to do to strengthen your pelvic floor.Yeah, but then when you talk about the end goal, which, because I kind of think that way, what I wanna do for people is make them feel comfortable in their bodies and confident that their life is best led by them in every single way. But when you say that I think a lot of people don't know whether or not they need that. I know even in the coaching contain, we weren't in this program together, but we are active in the same group. Yeah. So, one of the coaches that I've had, when I went to her, I did not know I needed what she actually offers. Yes. But she's such a master of marketing she presented something that I thought I needed, but what I needed, like you said, was at the bottom of the cereal another prize. It was confidence, it was mindset. But I never would've signed up for anyone who said they did mindset coaching. I would've been like, Oh, for what? Sounds impractical. So, have you had any issues finding your ideal person when you changed your marketing?Larissa: That's such an interesting question because I'm kind of in this in between space where I've changed the copy on my website and I'm still also teaching a lot of the same stuff and marketing it very in a very similar way. So, I would say I haven't really had a hard time finding folks to work with. And the folks who really wanna do this work who show up in my membership, for example, are really interested in the way that we're doing this together.When we are working together in that space at least, we have coaching conversations where we talk about all those little things that are going on in our lives that are taking away our sense of joy or adding to our sense of joy. But then we also do movement practices. So, we're really doing this embodiment work together and really experiencing, Okay the, the question that I think a lot of people can't answer all the time is, what does joy feel like in your body? Like what does joy feel like? Everyday? Joy. Not like, not like I just felt the best massage of my life.Dalia: Well, see, I wondered about that. When you say everyday joy, that's really Yeah. Helpful because I could definitely think about periods of like transcendent period.Yeah. And it doesn't have to be anything major. It's usually. Any kind of dancing exercise. It might happen if I do it for long enough. But a friend of mine I think saw, maybe it was your post asking like, what does, do I feel like in your body or someone else make, but I'm pretty sure it was you. And they said, oh my goodness, I don't know.And that was the first time they'd really thought about that. And I thought, Oh no, that's a little heartbreaking. Yeah. And I feel like they are a joyful person, but they, like so many of us, folks of color, spend a lot of time thinking about survival. Yep. And not thinking about joy. Yes. Yes. So where do you start with that?If you don't know what joy feels like in your body, and why do we need to know?Larissa: So, I usually start with something, actually, I think I wanna answer the second question first. I was gonna say, I have this thing we start with, but let's answer the second question first. So, like, why do we need to know what joy feels like in our body?Because life is hard and because every system of oppression wants to steal our joy and so, I see joy as being revolutionary, not unlike rest. Rest comes along with joy. Like they, they go together. They're very important parts of the whole picture. We need to know what joy feels like because we know what struggle feels like.Mm. We know what suffering feels like. We know what sadness, anger, frustration. We know what all of those things feel like and to not be able to also access things like joy, pleasure, delight. That is not okay. That's not a full spectrum of feelings for a human. And humans need to feel all the feelings. So, it doesn't mean that you're never angry if you, you're living a joyful, delighted life.It just means that when you're angry, you know that you have reasons for your anger a lot of the time, and that the feeling will pass. And that we can come back to Joy eventually. And I don't see joy as like this, like peak experience necessarily. I really think of it as the practice of cultivating attention to things that we love that we find pleasurable, that we find delightful.Dalia: Where would you see the concept of fun in relation to joy? Because I think that people probably all know what fun feels like. Yes. But what is the difference, and is this more like contentment than it is fun? Hmm.Larissa: I would say fun has a big role to play in getting joy in your life. I think that fun is a type of joy. I really think play and curiosity are a big part of this also. We can't be joyful if we're just kind of like focused all the time and working hard all the time, grinding all the time. Unless you really have fun grinding on your work and I don't know anybody who has fun just deleting things from their inbox all day.It's satisfying on some level maybe to watch it to diminish, but that's not always the case. So, I think that doing things that feel fun is great. Let's do more of those. Let's have as many of those as we can. Can we notice that the fun stuff is part of our joy? Maybe for some people doing things that, like going dancing or hula hooping or roller skating or things like that, that feel like play maybe that's part of your joy too.Like I don't, I don't see them as having to be distinct from each other necessarily. It's more like, are you noticing how you're feeling about it? Mm. Or are you just doing it because you're doing it, you know?Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Paying attention to it. Mm-hmm. So, when it comes to justice now, that's the one where I feel the disconnect.Yeah. And I like that you clarified. We know it struggle feels like we know what anger feels like, what frustration feels like, what does justice feel like?Larissa: What does justice feel like? I think it feels like, I was gonna say the opposite of injustice, but that's just a, that's a lazy answer, let's be real. Justice to me feels like a sense that my body.Has worth and value on its own without needing to be supported by the systems that oppress me. There's a difference between saying, well, my body has value because I've assigned it this value in my capitalistic system.Or my body has value because I'm pushing back against the patriarchy for sure. Right. But my body has inherent value and worth, and that those systems of oppression that I am liberating myself from the systems of oppression, not necessarily gonna be able to burn it all down as much as I would like to.But I have found the people in my life, I have the support systems I need so that those systems do not grind me down every single day all day. And justice isn't just my individual thing justice is something that we want for everybody. So, if I can get to that point where I'm like, okay I can feel the water, I can tell I'm swimming in it.I can tell who is my community, who's with me, and we are also working to make this water of oppression move away from everyone else too. So, is it a feeling that I can say I feel justice in my heart? I don't know, but there is a feeling of righteousness and a felt sense of safety in the body.That is what I want everybody to be able to feel, and that to me is where justice is flowing.Dalia: Oh, I love that. I love that concept. What role do you think oppression in terms of the patriarchy has in deteriorating or undermining the health of people born with a uterus?Larissa: Where do I start?Dalia: You know, I guess I didn't even, I'm saying that I'm like, I like a white dude to ask you a crazy question, but I really meant, cause I'm like, I'm thinking about reproductive health and all the ways that they block. Yes. But then I'm thinking, beyond all that, let's say you're in a position where you're in a state where you can get an abortion, where you need one, awesome.You're in a state where if you were born with a uterus, but you are a man, it's not a non-issue. Like assuming that all those things are taken care of, just psychologically. What do you think it does? Because I know for myself, I think it's ridiculous that I knew nothing about what to expect. Mm-hmm. from my pelvic floor as I aged mm-hmm.Anything that has to do with a fem body, you aren't gonna get information on because nobody cares. And all of the research is generally done on cis men. Yep. And things have changed a little bit, but not really. And then you notice that if it's affecting the health of men, people may be inherently motivated to resolve it.Yes. If it's affecting the health of people born with a uterus, then if it generates a lot of money, probably for men, they will be motivated to at least look like they're trying to resolve it. Like I think about all of the money that gets thrown at breast cancer research. And it's just this money-making machine and volunteer labor is really taken advantage of in a way that I just can't imagine happening with anything that maybe was cis male health concern. So, like on a deeper level, where have you noticed it kind of creeps into your life?Larissa: I would say, Okay. Let's assume that you can get all the medical care that you need and want and that you are not gaslit at the doctor for your endometriosis symptoms and that you are able to have a birthing experience where your body is cared for as much as your child. If we take the medical complex out of it a little bit and just go to like, how do we feel? Do we still feel shame and stigma around having a body? Do we have shame and stigma around having a body that menstruates? Do we have shame and stigma around talking about pelvic floor issues so that people understand that you don't have to ever carry a fetus in order to have pelvic floor issues. And should you give birth, the type of birth doesn't necessarily determine whether you're gonna have pelvic floor issues later in life. It's like, okay, technically the statistics say that they're a little bit higher for a vaginal birth, but regardless something like 70 or 80% of people with a uterus will experience pelvic floor issues in their lifetime. That's a lot of people. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that's where the impact is still coming in, where it's dirty. To talk about having a uterus to talk about, having a body to talk about dysfunction in our body.It's not just the patriarchy there. I think that we're also looking to a certain extent at a little bit of ableism, trickling in as well. Like this idea that your body always functions in one particular way, and there's one particular ideal way for your body to function throughout your life. And why would your body be different at 60 than it is at 20?Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that's such a good point. And considering how common it is, it is really strange that some things, they're kept so hush hush. Yes. That you literally don't know it's a thing until you experience it. Yeah. But it's amazing the difference that mentioning it might make because for some people they may not feel a sense of shame about it, that like plagues them every day when they put on their poise, whatever.Right. But they still don't feel like it's something you could bring up in conversation. Yeah, casually, like they would feel it might be unsafe, but if you mention it, then it's been interesting because I work with almost all women. If everybody's laughing and somebody says like, oh my goodness, stop, I'm gonna pee. Yes. Other people are like, Already did it. Nobody cares.Larissa: Right, right, right. Or like, I, I took my kids to, when I was first starting this work, I took my kids to trampoline park with a friend and she texted me and she was like, make sure that you, you know, wear some pads for this. And I was like, oh, I don't pee my pants when I go down the trampoline, but you know, I can help you with that.And it comes up. I used to like anytime, you know, in the before times when you could walk into a room full of random people. I used to walk into the room, and I would say, oh, this is what I do. And people would kind of like, at first, they might whisper, depends on what, you know, who's in the room.If it's a small enough group, they, they're like, oh yeah, I saw a PT. It was the best thing I ever did. You know, there's just a lot of conversation around it. It's just hidden and quiet, and I think that's changing a lot. Or that, or my Instagram feed is just full of lots of pelvic floor nerds like me.,Dalia: It is revolutionary to find out that there are things that we've accepted as part of the aging process that really it has nothing to do with that. It's about how you're treating your body. Mm-hmm, how you're nurturing it, or whether or not you're getting the information you need about what types of exercises could be helpful. Yeah. You know it that is, it's revolutionary to find out something that you were told there's nothing to do about this, and to find out that that isn't always true. That it frequently is not true. I know when I had rounds during my internship in an assisted living facility and in a long-term care facility. We came across a lot of elderly people with uterus as that had such severe bladder infections that it looked like dementia. Mm-hmm. It caused such confusion, but because it's so common, that's one of the first things they'll check for in a long-term care facility. Yeah. And because sometimes the infection, you know, it's sort of affect the kidneys. Yep. But people just out in the world when it happens, it can go so far before anybody recognizes it.No one thinks about. If you think people aren't thinking about a middle-aged person's vagina, you can forget about it once you are an elderly person. Yes. Like no one's gonna ask you anything, even if that's crucial information. So, what should we be doing now if we're concerned about feeling disconnected from that part of our bodies?Mm-hmm and feeling like it's changing in ways that we were not expecting.Larissa: I think the first thing I would say is any sort of movement or embodiment practice, even just mindfully walking more slowly to the kitchen will start connecting you with your body. And like, you don't have to take my class, you can take whatever it feels good to your body and just start connecting to. Does my body feel like right now? Like those little, tiny things. If you're feeling pain or discomfort, oh, what does that feel like? What else is going on in my life when I'm having this? Pain? And discomfort too, can be part of the picture.Noticing patterns, noticing. Whatever is going on in your body. Noticing whether there's for folks who have cycles, is there a cyclical pattern to it? So, I know that a lot of folks who have pelvic organ prolapse tend to feel their symptoms get worse at certain times, and then they get better depending on where they are in their cycle.Retreat AdTired of being at odds with your body, sick of diets and weight cycling that make you feel like trash. Would you like to finally make peace with food so that you can focus on what your actual purpose in life is? What would your life look like if you trusted your intuition and let your true desires guide your actions?This episode is brought to you by the Mindful Eating Mastery Eco-Luxury Retreat. This program is for you if you're ready to heal your relationship with food once and for all. This isn't another generic bod pos coaching program. The program is centered on your liberation. Nutrition is a tool that we use to reconnect to your inner wisdom and your sense of self-worth. Together we'll free you from chronic dieting, poor self-image, and self-doubt.This six-day retreat in Bali will give you the sustainable results you've been looking for. By the end of our time together, you'll have a firm grasp on intuitive eating. You'll be at peace with your body and aligned with your purpose and true desires. If that sounds good to you visit daliakinsey.com/retreat for details. So that would be my first thing is just start paying attention to. Thing you're in, like what does it feel like to be in my body when it's feeling pretty? Okay. If you're starting to feel symptoms of some kind. I really recommend everybody gets to go see a pelvic PT at least once in their life because they will assess what's going on.Some PTs will do internal assessments as well as external assessments. They'll do hands on assessments of what's going on with the muscles in your pelvic floor, and a really good PT will actually look at how your whole body is moving. They'll assess you in different positions, won't just have you lie down on a table.So that's what I recommend for most folks when they're starting to have maybe like some symptoms that they're really noticing, and pelvic floor symptoms can be all over the place. You could have low back pain; you could have something weird in your hips. A pelvic PT can help with that. You could have pain during sex. You could have constipation. You could have like all kinds. And then there's the leaking, right? We talk about the leaking, a feeling of heaviness in the pelvic floor, like something's falling out of your vagina, like that kind of feeling. In folks who have penises, the symptoms are also often constipation or difficulty urinating or like dribbling and things like that, or difficulty with getting an erection. Those kinds of things can be pelvic floor problems. They can be indicative of lots of other things as well, but those can be pelvic floor problems. I think that a lot of people don't know just how extensive that is, but if you think about your body and you think about where your pelvic floor is, it's at the bottom of your pelvis.It's a bunch of different muscles lining your pelvis, and everything is stacked up on top of that. If the pelvic floor isn't feeling pretty balanced and functional and reflexive, then of course it's gonna move up and down the whole rest of your body. Tight jaws is one of the really interesting ones is that a lot of folks who have really over hypertonic pelvic floors is what we call it also tend to have some jaw tension. It doesn't mean if you have jaw tension that your pelvic floor is also tight. It just means that sometimes. There's aDalia: correlation. That's really interesting considering the distance from your jaw to the pelvic floor.Yes, it's all connected. Everything is connected. So many times, especially the way medicine works here in the States, everyone deals with one little piece of the body, so it gives you the impression that it is separate because there's a person you go to for your ear. There's a person you go to for your eyes.There's a person for every little part, right? How do you even find a pelvic floor PT? Are PTs generally specialists?Larissa: Yes and no. Every PT I've ever interacted with has been a bit of a specialist, even if they're kind of generalists to begin with. I had to rehab my knees a few years ago and the guy I worked with was a really specialized in getting people back to running and was really good with knees and ankles,Dalia: So, it's something you end up as you work you get the niche down.Larissa: Yeah. PTs have to go through specialized training, and I'm not a PT myself. really talk to a lot of them. They have to go through specialized training after PT school. I also find that Pelvic Health OTs are a really fantastic resource.They also do, they can take the, like they can go take the same training after school and OT will have more of an activities of daily life focus.Dalia: So, Okay. That's an occupational therapist.Larissa: Yeah, sorry. Occupational therapist. Physical therapist, occupational therapist. They're both great. You can look them up online.You can Google Pelvic Health, PT or pelvic health, OT that will usually find you people in your area. And if anybody needs to know who to go see in the Raleigh Durham area, I got like six people for you.Dalia: Now, this type of exercising, is that also part of what you help people with inside your slow burn community?Larissa: Within that community, we do, in addition to kind of talking about pushing away the systems of oppression, we also do movement classes. And in those classes I tend to focus less on the core and more on the periphery. So, like I was saying, jaw attention and pelvic floor attention often go hand in hand.And I don't just sit around talking about hands and feet, but it's not quite that peripheral. But we'll do a little bit of core work. But mostly we're working on whole body exercises that support core and pelvic floor health. Or whole-body exercises that help your body just get grounded and relaxed.Or sometimes we lie on the floor and just release our bodies over things. There are so many different components to feeling comfortable moving in your body that you can go strength training, you can do some core work, you can do some relaxation, and it's all good. Mm.Dalia: I love that. Something you mentioned on your site that jumped out at me is that you said in your forties you felt comfortable to carve out your own space and I just turned 40 on December 3rd, I keep on being dazzled by the freedom that I feel like I'm experiencing. And it hasn't even been a month, but, and I don't know if it's just in my head because I heard for so many years as a child that the older you get, you know, you just open up and you feel free to do what you want to do to say what you need to say. And I heard that it starts in your forties and look out for your fifties. It's gonna be amazing. So maybe I just internalized that and believed it so much that I've around here setting boundaries left and right. Even walked out of a meeting yesterday.Not angry. I was just tired of being in there. Mm-hmm. and nobody said anything, and I swear. Before I turned 40, somebody would've been like, where do you think you're going? But it's the confidence with which I got up and I was just like, I'm done. Bye. No questions. They just, I'm just in shock. So, what did it feel like for you?What shifted? What made you realize it was time to carve out your own space? And when you say you were looking for a place where you fit in that stage of your life, what did that look like?Larissa: So, I think there are a lot of a lot of things to talk about with that. I started teaching movement up.About just right before I turned 40, cause I'm turning 45 next month. Yeah. And, and I'm right in the middle of the forties now. The not caring what people think just keeps going.Dalia: Extremely exciting.Larissa: I mean, I do care, right? I care a lot about what people think. I care that people get treated with respect and dignity and are heard and seen and listened to.Of course, but also, I just don't have time for any of that BS, the rest of it.Dalia: So, you're not as invested or invested in other people's approval anymore.Larissa: I mean, I probably still am working on that. That's like, I don't wanna hear that. I want to hear that at 45 it's completely gone.Working on throwing it out the window. I'm way less invested in other people's approval. I'm way more in touch with a sense of, again, what feels right for me. That's a very embodied sense of rightness. It's not kind of this up in my head. I've gone through all the options and this and that, and this and that, and this and that.It's like my body says yes, my body says no, and then I'm done. And I would say, you know, for me, I've spent my entire life at many, many intersections, so many intersections when we talk about identity, and I'm not gonna like lay them all out cuz just to draw Ven diagram of all the intersections I put me in the middle.Dalia: That's what, that's my favorite type of person to work with. And because I feel like as a first gen kid, a pansexual person, a black person, A person with one non-American parent, which I guess I cover with first gen. It just feels like a lot when you're surrounded by people who are part of the racial majority in the country, or who are straight or who are cis.Mm-hmm. It just feels like, Could I get any weird. As a kid, that's what it feels like.Larissa: I'm cis and I can own that. And I feel really settled in that part of my identity. Everything else is just up for grabs. but like, yeah, I think it's really hard to find a place and, but what I've found is my places with other people like me, like other folks who have lots of intersections, and that is really whereI find it to be a comfortable place because we all get it that there's a fluidity.Dalia: Yeah. I feel that when I find I'm with people like that because it seems like people rarely talk to us. I don't know what you would say, to let those people know, Hey, I'm over here. Aside from just slowly word of mouth, you know, getting to know people one on one.Yeah. Because when people never talk to you in content, you don't even look for stuff that's for you. It wouldn't even occur to you because before you look, you know it's not there.Larissa: Hmm. I don't have a good answer for that, but I'm like, now I need to make some more content about being in the middle of all the intersections.Dalia: Yes. Yes. Well, I wanna see that. I feel like it's going to be coming, because I know through the second wave of the civil rights movement, I heard more about the biracial experience than ever before. Yeah. And it feels. Anything up until then that I was hearing about the biracial experience was being told by people who are not biracial.Mm-hmm. So, like a lot of tropes in movies from the fifties and they just make it look like, oh, it's so tragic to be multiracial. Yes. And you know, from that lens of like being white, so great, it's so sad to be fair skinned, but not white. Like, okay, fine, from your white supremacist perspective, I'm sure it is very tragic, but you know, have you ever spoken to anybody biracial to see what was really going on?But to hear about the stressors of living through a civil rights movement when you have people who encourage you to erase or gloss over that part of yourself was really interesting. So, I feel like it's coming. Yeah. It may be the Gen Z people who start making more content available for people that are living at multiple intersections.Larissa: Could be. I mean, I definitely, that what you just said about listening to more stories of people who have to, like gloss over half of their parentage. I'm like, That's me. Oh, yeah, I know that story. Or, you know, Yeah, there's just, and, and there's so many contexts where I'm like, oh, I can, I can go into this room or that room, and if I go into the white room, people are like, Oh, you're the friendly black lady.You know,Dalia: like this feeling like there is no room for you. Yeah,Larissa: there's no, there is no room for me. And that's why I feel like making my own room is the easiest way to get there and to feel and to find people who understand and resonate with that experience. And it does take time. It takes a really long time.I think. I think it's not something that's super easy, like might be easier to find joy in my body from hula hooping than to find like five other biracial people to hang out with.Dalia: maybe in, in the part of the world that you're living in, maybe.Larissa: Maybe North Carolina's weird. WellDalia: see. And I don't know, there's so many people who, it's so interesting, I've been finding this as I've been spending more time making an effort to seek out the company and community of other folks of color.Like you mentioned, like liberation happens in community and yes, being separated from. People who are likeminded, who have similar backgrounds is part of being treated like an other than person and being taught to reject yourself and therefore you have trouble connecting with other people with the same marginalized identities as you.And it goes on and on. But what I kept finding was, And I already knew this on a level, but when I was focusing on building community, it really jumped out at me that just because somebody shares the identities doesn't mean they've gotten to a point to where they can be a safer space for you. Absolutely.Absolutely. Yeah. So that's even more people to filter through. Yes, yes. Are you could find five and like three of them could be really weird, like still working through a lot of internalized racism.Larissa: Absolutely. Or so internalized healthism and fatphobia. And wow, I do not wanna sit around and listen to you talk about your diet.That is not my thing. So, yeah, I think finding the right people is hard, and we know when we're with the right people because they feel right. because we're in tune with how our bodies respond, because we're in tune with like, oh, this conversation could go on all night. That feeling of really deep connection and the fact that they're respecting your boundaries, they're listening to you, they're validating you.They're not just kind of half listening and thinking about the next thing they're gonna say, like all of those things. When we find those people, it's so, so good.Dalia: Mm. What has the trick been to finding those people?Larissa: Being a raging extrovert.Dalia: I wanna give the introverts some hope too, if they can muster up the energy. I myself am introverted.Larissa: Yeah. I'm like half again, let's take those intersections. I'm like half every time I take the test. I'm extroverted by nature, but especially as a parent, I have deep needs for solitude. I really understand that. And I really don't like parties where I don't know anyone.So, like I really get that. I think finding the people you connect most with. For me has been, it's come about through being part of communities, smaller groups. Yeah, with common interest, whether that's an entrepreneurial group or a yoga class, or my Aikido Dojo or wherever, like the places that you go, whether they're online or in person, where you get time to connect with people in an authentic way with a shared something.I don't know what, that's something that's interest. We can call it an interest. And then for me it's really been a process of deliberately cultivating friendships with people where I feel like we, we connect and where I feel like it's meaningful and that we have a shared, shared enough value system where we're not gonna be constantly disagreeing about everything.But where maybe sometimes there's a little push and pull where I might say something and they don't agree with me, or they're like, Well, what about from this perspective? That's, that's been it. And it's really hard as an adult to make friends. Like it's, it's hard. We're not just thrown together in a building with, with lots of people all day long.Dalia: Yeah. I think it could be more challenging depending on how much free time you have, how much energy you have left. Cause like you said, cultivating I think is the key. And I find that people who have a lot of responsibilities Yep. Who are caretakers, whether that's for a parent or for their own children.Yep. They don't have the energy sometimes to cultivate friend. Yeah, and that's where even when they find a connection maybe it kind of withers on the vine because they don't get to tend to it.Larissa: I do feel like that's often true. I also really. Focus on like a very small number of people to cultivate those connections with.Like, and we just have walking dates or phone dates or group chat where it's, the group chat is great for those of us who are in caregiving positions where we can't maybe get away to go do something cuz I can text my group chat at 10 30 at night or one in the morning. And I know that nobody's got their notifications dinging.So, it's okay. And then I can get that support and I can get that connection that I need. And that's really, really helpful. And it's hard and it takes a lot of time. I don't think that that we recognize sometimes how long it takes and how much intention it takes to be friends with people. Even for my kids, I see it happen where they have to intentionally spend time together regularly so that there's an ease in the relationship where they don't have to constantly negotiate boundaries all the time.Like, yes, we all negotiate boundaries all the time, but if I take my, my friend Elizabeth, and we go for a coffee and I'm gonna be late, she can order me a coffee and I don't necessarily have to tell her what to get me because we've cultivated that relationship.Dalia: Yeah, I think it's something you definitely don't notice. When you're younger, because the people that you're friends with are people that you're around all the time. Yeah. So not having that time is a non-issue. And you also think friendships last forever because they do last for years when you're a kid, if you're staying in the same town, same school, same church or something, you're around each other all the time.But you really do start to notice as people move away in your early twenties. Oh, we weren't friends because we were in the same physical location. Right. You're not the types of friends that survive distance. Yeah. And then you learn like how to find people that are willing to invest as much time or to invest as much time in the relationship as you need. And I think that's something that also your body will let you know when something is not working for you anymore.Larissa: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I will say that we often just ignore those cues from our body for a really long time, especially in a time when we can stay connected.People that we grew apart from 25 years ago on Facebook, and they're like, liking your posts and you're like, Oh, how nice. We don't actually have to maintain those connections that don't really work for us anymore. And we can bolster up those connections that do work for us. I, I just, I think that's actually one of the things the 40s really gives you is, oh, I don't actually have to spend my time on all of these people. I can spend my time on the people I want to spend my time with, and I can choose, like to go back to kind of justice and liberation stuff. I can choose how I wanna spend my energy in the world. Do I have the resources today to engage with this person from my high school who whatever they've done, whatever the thing is that they said. And you know, y'all know there's something they said, do you have the resources to really engage with that? Or will you just get angry and shut down? And, and that, I feel like those are the choices that I get to have now that I might not have thought I had before.Dalia: Yeah. I've gotten a lot more selective about how I wanna use these spoons.Larissa: Cause spoons are limited, and you don't know tomorrow you're gonna have the same number.Dalia: Yes, exactly. And just going through the pandemic, being reminded, I'm not someone who shies away from the concept of mortality. But it's helpful, at least it has been helpful for me to have that reminder that I keep thinking, oh, I have like 40 more years. Says who is the thing, right? Yeah. So why can't I prioritize my joy in real time? Remembering that joy is also a compass. It isn't a luxury. Yes. It helps you discern which direction you should be moving in.Mm-hmm. And also, you physically need a break from all of those other states for your wellness, for you to be able to do all the other things in life that you think are important. Yep. Spending more time in a joy state will help you with everything else you're trying to do.Larissa: Absolutely. Absolutely. If you're doing community organizing, I hope you're having a dance party at some point because, because we can't stay in that state of a nervous system arousal that like heightened state indefinitely. That's not how our bodies work best. and yeah, I'm certainly gonna be the last person to say, oh, we all owe each other health, but we do owe it to ourselves to put ourselves at the center of our worlds and to really focus on our own joy and doing that gives us more spoons.Yeah. Maybe not as many as you want. Sometimes I as someone living with chronic illness. I'm like, Oh. No spoons today.Dalia: Yeah, another intersection. And another one of those things that people don't talk about cuz even people who are chronically ill like to pass as people who are not or maybe need to for safety or an employment type of thing.So no, no judgment there. But thank you for reducing the stigma by letting that be part of your identities that you share with the world, so people understand while this looks like many different forms and with hidden illnesses, people tend to undermine them and not understand the severity.So, it's just helpful when people actually share some of their experience for other people to know, you know, the amount of struggling that you're doing is actually normal and there's still plenty of room for joy and purpose and you just have to pace.Larissa: Exactly. Exactly. You are just a little bit at a time.Dalia: Yeah. If there was one thing you could tell everyone that they would internalize magically, instantly, and never forget, what would you want everyone to know?Larissa: Ugh. I feel like I could quote a bunch of people on this and say something like, your body is not a problem to be solved. It is your home.Dalia: Oh, I really love that. Who said that?Larissa: So, your body is not a problem to be solved. It's like something that a lot of different people have said. I have it on a tank top from an artist whose name is Rascal Honey, I think.I don't remember their actual name, but that's the name of their brand. Your body's your Home is something that lots of people said and something I say. So that's actually, yeah, that's mine.Dalia: Oh, I love that. I love it all together. Yes. It goes together. Yeah. Ugh. Beautiful. So, what is the best way for people to get in touch with you?Larissa: So, you can follow me on Instagram @larissa_parson. You could check out my website, which is www.larissaparson.com. Those are the best ways to find me.Dalia: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on.Larissa: Thank you so much. This was just delightful. ​ Get full access to Body Liberation for All at daliakinsey.substack.com/subscribe

Yael R Rosenstock Gonzalez (she/her) is a sex educator, sex coach, researcher, author, speaker, curriculum developer, and workshop facilitator. As a queer, polyamorous, white-presenting Nuyorican Jew, Yael has always been interested in understanding the multi-level experiences of individuals. This led her to found Kaleidoscope Vibrations, LLC, a company dedicated to supporting and creating spaces for individuals to explore and find community in their identities. Through her company, she facilitates workshops, develops curriculum, offers Identity Exploration Coaching, and publishes narratives often left out of mainstream publishing.This episode we explore:Honoring boundaries in community spaces and navigating POC spaces as a white presenting personFinding belonging and claiming identity as a multi-ethnic personDiversity in the Jewish diaspora Promoting inclusive representations of human experience in publishing Episode ResourcesDecolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body LiberationBali Retreat March 19-25 2023https://kvibrations.com/https://www.sexpositiveyou.com/https://www.instagram.com/yaelthesexgeek/https://www.tiktok.com/@yaelthesexgeekHello and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I'm your host, Dalia Kinsey, holistic registered dietitian, and the author of Decolonizing Wellness.My work is centered on amplifying the health and happiness of LGBTQI+ and BIPOC people. And that is also what we do here at Body Liberation for All. I wanna remind you, I am hosting the Decolonizing Wellness Eco-Luxury QTBIPOC retreat in Bali in March. So if you are a person who loves the plan way in advance, like I do. This is when you want to book. This is a great time to give yourself plenty of room to break the trip into payments and to get all of your ducks in a row. If you aren't going to be able to join us, but you know someone who this retreat could be life changing for, please make sure you share it. Substack makes sharing so easy on their platform. So if you visit daliakinsey.substack.com to listen to this episode you'll see it's just a click of a button. Today's guest, the Yael Rosenstock has so much knowledge in different areas that we cover a lot of territory in this conversation. There was still so much more that we could have dug into that hopefully at a later date we'll get to revisit. Today we explore a little bit of the lived experience of being a white presenting person who lives shoulder to shoulder with POC within the family, but out in the world is not having the same experience as the family members that have a darker complexion. Since we already know race is not actually real from a scientific perspective, it's totally a social construct, your skin color itself will to a large extent determine how much lived experience you have as a person of color or as a white person, regardless of what the socialization inside of your house is like because so much of the POC experience, if you're living in a colonized country, if you're living in a country that has its roots in white supremacy, so much of the experience is informed by the anti-Blackness or the anti-POCness that you're going to encounter out in the world.That does not in any way invalidate the cultural uniqueness of people who are in these very blended families and happen to have pale skin or white skin. So it's interesting to me to hear directly from somebody having this experience. It's an interesting concept to look at on an individual level. What does the fact that race is fictional and totally social have? How does that all play out - when you know you are culturally different from the white folks who do not have POC blood relatives that they live with and are close with but at the same time you know that you're not experiencing the same level of marginalization. What is that like? I rarely bother to claim my Latinx heritage. Because the anti-blackness that I have encountered in a lot of Spanish-speaking circles here in the US is so intense it doesn't make any logical sense for me to keep trying to be somewhere that I don't feel welcome.Some of these themes that Yael shares, the feeling of not enoughness when you are more than one thing or when you've only been presented with a narrow definition of what it means to hold a particular identity, is so relatable. I know not just to us, it's so relatable to so many people, because the ways that we define certain identities are so narrow it naturally leaves out a large number of people. The work that Yael is doing to promote the authentic representation of a wide variety of human experience at her publishing company feels like such a natural extension of this lived experience that she has of knowing how difficult it can be to really claim and embody our identities when we haven't seen anything similar reflected back to us. I love this. Entire conversation. I know you will too. Let's jump right into it. Body Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It's your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.Dalia: I definitely wanted to cover the concept of white passing fragility. But then I want to definitely talk about your other projects and just what you're doing with intersectionality.Yael: Okay. I do want to warn that there's a very good chance that that will not. Some people will really like that idea of the white passing fragility, but others won't because right. The author of that book has become super famous and super rich off of a book around racism as a white woman. And just giving you a fair warning that this may or may not be taken so well.Dalia: And then that's so interesting too, because it seems like people should be compensated for good work or things that they do with good intentions.Dalia: But so often people who are in social justice are on the struggle bus financially, but, and that almost seems to be the expectation. Like you have to be a martyr to break down systems of oppression. But then I also am conflicted because it seems like all the time, white people continue to profit off of pain from people of color and especially Black people in this country. Even when you look at who makes money off of depictions of just Black suffering in general, whether it's another movie about slavery, even if it's a "fun" spin on it, like the Django or something, which I refuse to watch, I just don't understand how we're not seeing how problematic that is, but at least hers originally started out with intentions that seemed more educational.Dalia: Like I think it's a little more sketch to create a film or a piece of entertainment that centered on Black pain. And then all the money goes to somebody who's not Black. I mean, not at all, but the majority, most of it, right. It seems less sketchy, but it is sketchy nonetheless.Dalia: And I've been having a lot of feelings around these white savior complexes that are popping out these days. And people not understanding that, hey, maybe people want to be the hero of their own damn story and guess what, maybe they are ready are.Yael: But you're in the wayDalia: I know. Right? Or like you just exhausting people showing up to the March and explaining to everybody how, you know, you're being white the right way. I don't know if you've seen that play out in real life where people try constantly schooling other white people on how to be more. Down, I guess is the expression, but it doesn't really translate, but it's so rare that people confront people like that because their competition or the people that you have to compare them to you sometimes are so problematic that by comparison, they seem amazing.Yael: Yeah, I like this better.Dalia: So it's like, should I even say anything?Dalia: So I don't know.Yael: Considering that most of my spaces are POC and or Latin. I don't have that many white saviors.Dalia: Smart. Okay. Is that by design or is that coincidental?Yael: Well, I think at first it's coincidental, right? Just like growing up in a mixed neighborhood with a mixed family.Yael: It just is what happened. I was in a school with folks of different groups. And so that just continued. And then when I did reach middle school and there were white people who were just white, not Latin, like, I mean, there were a couple in elementary, but not many. And. I just felt really uncomfortable in the space.Yael: And that was like my assigned group. Cause I wasn't dark enough to be in the Latin group, I think. And also like the Latin group was like ghetto fab. Like I also wore my hair back slicked back. I also had the lip liner, and I had the big hoop earrings as well,Dalia: But like it wasn't enough.Yael: It was a, it was a browner Latin group. And so I felt like I shouldn't be part of it. Like I was friends with them, but I shouldn't be part of it because I didn't look the same. And so I just like ended up, even though I was friends with all the other groups, I ended up in the white girl group and I was just like, this is uncomfortable. Like, I don't agree with the things they say.Yael: I like rebelled a bit and basically got kicked out. And so I think after that, I was just like, I'm going to try and choose. So I don't think I've ever been like, I'm unwilling to be friends with white people because that doesn't seem nice either. But the same reason that folks have affinity groups, right?Yael: The same reason we hang out with queer people as queer people, the same reason you hang out with Latin people if you're Latin or Black and Black is because you don't want to have to explain certain things. And I'm tired. And so I don't go into all white spaces cause I get nervous about why are they all white?Yael: Like what's the intention behind this group. Is there an ulterior motive and I, yeah, I just like, I don't want to have to explain things that I end up becoming that white person, the white savior being like, that's not how. I joined a book club once. And they were talking about how, like, it didn't make sense that this person was referencing their dreams.Yael: Like it's not like a real thing. And I was like, this person is Mexican. And I don't know that much about Mexicans, but in like Caribbean culture dreams can be really important.Dalia: Oh wait. They were saying like a literal dream, not goals that they were struggling with finding meaning in their dream and they thought that was weird?Yael: Yeah. He was writing a memoir and he was referencing how he thought his dream was related to the, like what was happening in his life and that he had seen a Wolf or something. Right. He has indigenous culture roots, right as a Mexican-American. But they were just like, no, that's like, he's just making that up from the memoir.Dalia: But no, because that's extremely common.Yael: Yeah. Like they couldn't fathom it.Dalia: That is fascinating. So this is so interesting, can you share your marginalized identities? Because I think the experience of being white presenting is interesting in that you may be exposed to things that I might never hear, because I didn't even know that, I didn't even notice that white people weren't doing that all the time too.Dalia: Because at work at the moment I'm working in a majority Black office. And people are constantly talking about, you know, oh, I saw this, I wonder if it's a sign and we all have different religious backgrounds too. Somebody even started wearing a hair net because they're afraid somebody might get some of their hair that was shedding and put roots on them. None of us thought that was weird. We were all like, oh, if you feel it's necessary, you do that. You make sure you're not,Yael: You save yourself. It may or may not be real. It may or may not be. I'm always like, I rather be careful then sorry.Dalia: Exactly. Absolutely. Nobody said anything when I came into the room to sage it because I thought that we had some bad mojo in there.Dalia: People said, make sure you get my desk.. Someone came in with holy water. Like we had a very problematic coworker , and we were like, get all the stuff we're clapping in the corners.Yael: I was friends with one of the custodians where I used to work and she's an older woman. She was like the age of maybe like between mother and grandmother.Yael: And she brought me a bracelet because she was. You're very joyful and you're pretty. And I just think that someone's going to send you a curse. made me a bracelet to protect me from maldiciones. She just didn't want me to get hurt.Dalia: And you immediately put it on. You're like, okay, thanks.Yael: I mean, first off, like I appreciate that you're caring about me and no, I don't think it's weird.Yael: I've worn, evil eyes before, you know, like, to me, I think that the bigger thing for us is like whether or not we participate or whether or not we're like, yes, this is real when I talk about ghost stories, I share all the ghost stories. I know. Was I there? No. Was it real? I don't know. Cause I wasn't there, but it could be .Dalia: It's so dismissive to be like, oh, that's so dumb. What? Who says that -only people who are very sheltered and are under the impression that their way is the only way.Yael: This was a group about social justice. The people are lovely and the ones who hosted, I actually adore. They are fantastic.Yael: And they weren't the ones who were having this question, but I remember one person in particular, she was just totally dismissive. And I was just like, I don't understand. And I didn't show up for a couple of years, but then I came back and I was like, okay, my role is going to be giving the perspective of not these people in the case that this comes up again, because they keep reading books by people of color. And like, I don't have the same perspective. Like I said, I'm not Mexican. I don't know what they do. But I have a feeling that this is like something that's shared, like it's a native American thing.Yael: It's a Latin thing. It's a Black thing. Like I just feel, you know, Asian cultures, everyone, actually.Dalia: I know this is whats so bizarre.Yael: There are definitely white people who also have that as a practice and Jews, a lot of us who do pass it are white or pass as white, like that's also part of our culture.Dalia: And that's another thing. So this is one of my big questions. So, you identify as Latin X?Yael: Yes, I'm LatinaDalia: You're Latina and you're Jewish. And so does that mean your mother is your Jewish parent.Yael: That is actually, so...Dalia: does that matter or is that like out of date or…Yael: No, that is an excellent question. My parents tried to enroll me in what's called Yeshiva because they didn't like the local public school.Yael: And so they wanted to put me in a Jewish school and I got rejected because my mother is Catholic and my father is Jewish. And as you like are insinuating, like the religion follows the mother. Now that school accepts muts like me of my form. They no longer discriminate against us, but because my parents couldn't put me in the Jewish school.Yael: I went to an Episcopalian school.Dalia: Oh, wow, you were all over the place.Yael: Yeah. So I got a good Christian education .Dalia: Oh, and how did your dad manage,, was he a little heartbroken? Like, Ooh, not what I had in mind.Yael: Well, it was a small school. There wasn't a religion class, but like every morning we started with prayers and every Wednesday we had mass and I just, I didn't know they wanted me to be Jewish. I thought they were saying, here are our religions. You go to Sunday Jewish school. You go to day school with Christians. Figure out your path. And so I very confidently figured out my path. I was like, I am Jewish. And like, I am now very knowledgeable about Christian stuff. But actually they did want me to be Jewish and they had warned the school that that was what they wanted.Dalia: I was under the impression, and this may not be accurate. Is that like a modern Jewish person may be a little more secular and maybe they know some of the traditions and then maybe they go to synagogue for special events or, but still feel that strong cultural identity.Dalia: And then don't really feel, I feel like they should be dropped into that white American bucket with everybody else because they're separate as an ethnic group. Whereas other white ethnic groups (in America) gave up their separateness for the most part.Yael: Interesting. So I haven't done much study into the question, but I have a friend who sent me, who sends me lots of articles, Catherine.Yael: And she sent me an article about whether or not Jews are white and my coworker, Asia Gray, who does our anti-racism curriculum and what have you. One of the books was, how antisemitism was the original racism. And so that's part of the way that she talks about oppression and like structural oppressions and what have you.Yael: And she starts that story there and it's like Jews became white if you are white, but there are Black Jews. There are like plenty of Middle Eastern Jews that have more color there are Russian Jews, the Sephardic Jews, the Mizrahi in general. So there are plenty of Jews of color and then they're like me Ashkenazi, which are of German roots, right. German and certain parts of Russia, roots and Poland and all that kind of stuff. And so, yeah. Yes, it is a different, I agree. It's different ethnic group. Like you can trace us back when I did that blood test, I literally come out 49% Ashkenazi. I'm from Germany, even though I can, I can trace my roots on a family tree that's physical to the 15 hundreds. It says I'm Ashkenazi. Wasn't mentioned Germany because the Jewish blood is what it picks up. And so, yes, I agree. Like there's like this ethnic thing there and that's why you can be a secular person of a religion.Yael: I mean, there are plenty of secular Christians, right. That celebrate Christmas and what have you. But there's like this certain level of like the foods that you eat and the mannerisms that you have and like certain cultural values. I don't identify it as a secular Jew I identify as reform, which is like a less observant Jew.Dalia: Now, how did you feel your queer identity meshes with Judaism? It's rumored to be an easier mesh. Is that true? Are Christians just being jealous?Yael: I think it is an easier, easier. I mean, I know plenty of Christians that are queer, but my synagogue, I don't remember how old I was, but she bat mitzvah'd me so young enough for that had a lesbian rabbai.Yael: And she got married at our synagogue and we were just a regular reform synagogue. Right. We weren't like, ah, where the most social justice progressive synogauge, we were just a reform synagogue. And we did lose some of the older parishioners and I imagine some other age ones, when she joined as the rabbi, but for the most part, everyone was like, love who you love.Yael: Right? Like that's not an issue. And she was a woman rabbi and my next rabbi was also a woman, right? So like that's super common. It's even starting very slowly in the Orthodox community, which is one of the more observant sects of Judaism to have women rabbis. And so overall I think that shift is, is more common in our space .Dalia: The idea of there being Jewish people of color is interesting to me, because it seems like in the states, people are under the impression that that's not a thing. Can you tell us about the work that you're doing for representation, and as far as intersectionality goes as a very fair skin person of color.Yael: Sure so I think the most thing that the thing that directly relates is that I'm part of the diverse bodies project. The idea is a nude photo interview series, intended to increase representation of who gets seen and photograph naked and how you want to be represented.Yael: So it's not that you had to do a sexy shot or you had to do a serious shot that people get to bring their personalities in through the photographs and show who they are. And that was really important to us and something that we did because it's been taken us forever. But the mini books that we've already released is the Jews flying the rainbow flag mini books.Yael: And so it's got five different Jews and we had plenty of Jews participate but featured five different Jews ranging from like early twenties to, I think, sixties and out of the five of them. Two of them are Black. One of the Black Jews is also Latin, so she's Afro Dominican. And the point of that was to be like folks exist, you know, and it's so common for you to be like, this is what a Jew looks like when.Yael: Yeah, sure a lot of us do look like me. There are Black Jews. There are Latin Jews, there are Asian Jews, there are all the types. And so that was really important to us that we highlight that these are two queer Black Jewish women and they get as much space in this little book as anyone else.Yael: I will say part of my work and that's what we got into the white white passing fragility talk is that I don't identify as a person of color. And who knows, maybe I'll change that at some point. I choose not to identify that way. Cause it feels appropriative. And to be like, just because I have another language or just because my family may have a bunch of people of color and it doesn't mean that I'm existing as a person of color.Yael: And so when I walked through the street, people see me as white and that's just true. But I do enter, and I was asked this question recently, so why do I enter people of color spaces? And it's cause I'm, I'm feel safer there. I feel more connected there. I don't feel blegh there. And so if people are willing to have me, which they generally are, most people of color spaces are open to white presenting Latin folk. Then I just asked permission and I join.Dalia: That's interesting and I knew that, and I forgot that when I said that, because I know I'm very used to- anybody who says they're a person of color. I was just like, okay, like, it's the response? Because especially, you know, Black American, no, actually.Dalia: Latin people even more than Black Americans come in all kinds of shades and colors, and you can't look at somebody and have any clue what even their parents look like. And that a lot of times really informs their experience as far as how they were treated growing up, because it is funny to me how depending on who you're sitting beside, people may perceive your color differently, which just goes to show how arbitrary our understanding of race is..Dalia: Like number one, we know it's not a real biological thing, but like you said, it's the experience that creates the cultural differences. It's the lived experience that matters. So if, when you are out in the world, people treat you as though you are white well then you are having the white experience.Dalia: And that is really the key difference. But I have biracial friends who, if they were with their brown parent, they get treated differently and are even perceived differently versus with the other parent, which I just think is fascinating.Yael: Well, my parents are both white. My dad is white Ashkenazi and my mother is a white presenting Latina.Yael: My uncle, my abuela they would have been identified as POC, but not my mother. And so when I'm with my mother, it was the same thing. People don't realize she speaks Spanish. She's been spoken about by people who were like checking her out.Dalia: Well, it's just interesting to me. And I don't know if this happens everywhere or if it's some of our American brainwashing, but like all the time people act as though Spanish is. Secret language. And I'm like, what is wrong with you? It is so, so common. And the people who speak it look so many different ways and you don't have to only speak English, your heart language, or your first language.Dalia: Like, that's another thing I'm like, you do realize that maybe she can speak Spanish as a second language or not all latin people look the same. I really don't understand the disconnect with that because I've been spoken about in Spanish to my frigging face so many times, and I do speak Spanish. And usually, I mean, unless they're saying something really rude, usually people are trying to guess whether or not the person I'm with is my husband or my what's the male form of mistress.Dalia: I bet there isn't one, right? Oh,Yael: LoverDalia: Yeah, it just goes to show like, if there isn't a word that connotes, not a legitimate partner, because you're not married to them that's some more sexist shenanigans, but yeah, it's just interesting to me that people make that assumption so often. So what has your experience been like trying to stay connected to your Latin roots when so often people are very narrow about what they consider to be Latin?Yael: So it's funny because all of our countries have folks, all the Latin countries have folks that look like me. And like most of the countries have folks that look like you, right? It's not, we're not anomalies in these spaces.Yael: And so I actually, I was convinced I needed to prove myself. Like my mother, I felt counted as real Latina because she was raised in Puerto Rico. Her first language is Spanish. Like that seems to me like check that counts. But me I'm half Ashkenazi. I look, the way that I do my Spanish for awhile was pretty crappy.Yael: And so I, I felt the need to prove myself. All my friends were Latina and I was like, I must be more Latina. I must speak this fluently. And I must eat the food. And I am an incredible salsa dancer at this point. So, but that was all me. Right. And perhaps white people and perhaps Black people who weren't Latin.Yael: Right. And that, if I said I was. The response was always like, oh really? Unless I turned around and then they're like, I see it in your butt now I know that you're Latin because of your butt, like, literally the number of times people have been like, I believe you because of your shape. Otherwise I wouldn't have counted you.Yael: Whereas on the flip side with Latin folks, there's really not much surprise. They don't assume I'm Latina. But if I start speaking Spanish or they see me dancing or whatever, like they ask me, where are you from? They don't ask me, are you at the end of the ask me? Oh, okay. Yeah. Right. Assume that I am. And they're right, because for them, it's not so surprising to see someone who looks like me, but I think, and it's when you think of immigration, you're going to assume that more white Latins are going to migrate because of mean.Yael: Whereas you have browner and Blacker people migrating because of need. And so if you're hanging out with folks from your same social class, which will end up being also your same racial categorization, because those are very linked to whether or not we all want to admit it in the Americas as well.Yael: And all the Americas. So like, I think that that's part of it, right? You're used to hanging out with other brown people. And so even though your country has plenty people who look like me, you never associated with associated with them. Either. They were from a different region or they were from a different social class.Yael: And so they went to different schools and they had different access. And so I think that's more it, but like Latin people never not include me.Dalia: Oh, that's interesting. So it was really more just internal.Yael: Yeah. I was like in TV, none of the Latinas looked like me. All of my friends were darker than me.Yael: And so I was like, I need to be darker. And my abuela ? When I went to go visit her, she was like, no sunscreen. We need to get you more dark.Dalia: That is so interesting to me because that I've seen more often the opposite experience. So first I think when I turn on Univision, everybody's white and the housekeeper looks like she has some indigenous ancestry.Dalia: She doesn't get to say anything, except like, let me get that for you.Yael: They're white almost. They're like what I call exotic white. Like they have, what's considered what I consider the stereotypical, Latin of means look, which is like, they have very heavily European race roots, but they were at some point mixed with other races.Yael: And so they have like olive tone skin, dark hair, like certain whatever. And I don't have. It's like, I'm actually just white passing.Dalia: Yeah. Oh yeah. That makes sense. That distinction. Yeah. I can see that for sure. Like a Sophia Vergara type of, yeah.Dalia: But at the same time I'm sure when she is home, she would be called white, but it's just, when you weave and you come here, then you you've turned into some exotic white.Yael: Yes. And that like that to me is like an interesting thing too. Like if in your own country you are white and then you come here and you're like, I'm a person of color.Yael: What changed? And it's true. Our racial dynamics are very different in each country, but it's interesting to me that, like, I mean, you don't necessarily, people don't identify necessarily as white or Black or what have you. That's not part of, most of the country's ways of self. They just don't do that. And then some countries that like became illegal like you don't put that stuff on the birth certificates, like you just don't name race. But in my head, I'm like you can recognize hopefully that people look different in your country and that you're having different experiences based on that. So when you come to this country, why do you claim this identity?Yael: Or if your family came to this country, why do you claim this identity when you were still white passing?Dalia: Well, yeah, that is really interesting. And what is funny to me, especially for Dominicans, just because I hear this from them more than anybody else, that your race, it feels like it did change during the flight because your treatment was completely different.Dalia: And maybe back home, you were part of the dominant group culturally and power structure wise. And this is the first time people are treating you as though you're an other. And so maybe your identity will shift them because race really is a social construct. So you can make a flight and your race changes.Yael: Yes, totally agree. But also those are Afro Dominican, right? Then being put into a category that is on the lower end of, or possibly the lowest end of our racial categories in the U S. And so they're going from being the norm to going to being the most marginalized population in the country. Whereas if you are a light skinned or white passing Latina you were going from being the highest, probably social class in your country to be not too far down. You might feel like you're all of a sudden, like super oppressed, because you're not used to any form of oppressio nDalia: that see, that really says a lot. And it is the author, speaking of white passing fragility, the writer of white fragility says, you know, like 97% feels like a horrible loss or injustice when you're used to a hundred percent.Yael: Oh, wow. Nice quote.Dalia: And I say that, and I'm like, she probably said some other numbers, but don't look it up. Trust me. I love the idea of that perspective of asking for permission to go into these other spaces because you feel comfortable, but then also not internalizing the rejection. If somebody says, I really, I don't think it's a fit.Dalia: How did you get to that point? And how do you suggest other people who are white presenting, but feel more comfortable in browner spaces? How should they reconcile that?Yael: So I think there's like tying back with like that white savior thing that like, I need to be here.Yael: Don't get me wrong, communities are important. And again, like a lot of my community is POC and that is important to me. And also I recognize that not every space is for me. If you were going to have a men's group, I don't belong in it. When I was helping facilitate a peer sex education group, I was like, we need a leader for the abstinence and virginity group, because I am neither abstinent nor identify as a virgin, but I am a super sexual human being.Yael: And so I don't belong in this space. It does not make the space safe. This is a group led by and for folks with a certain experience. And so when you recognize that that's the point, right? Like women's groups, you don't want men. And normally we don't question that we're not like, oh, how exclusionary what's exclusionary is if you don't allow all women.Yael: All women belong in women's groups, whether they're CIS or trans. But you don't allow men because it's a woman's space. And the point is to create a space that feels safe for that population. So they can be heard, feel seen and not have to explain things that they would have to explain to someone who doesn't understand.Yael: And so to me, that is what often POC spaces are. And there's so much I can understand because I'm surrounded by POC and because my family has POC and there's so much I can't understand because I will never live it.Yael: And so if the space would be safer without my presence, then why would I want to put myself in a spot that will cause others harm when then the intension is for them to have a good space.Yael: Not every space is like that, right? Like if you go to school, if you go somewhere most spaces, unless you're like at historically Black university, right? Like you're going to be surrounded by white folks and like, no, one's questioning that. And so why shouldn't you get to be surrounded by the people you want to be surrounded with for this time period that is yours. It's your time, it's your space. And so I think for me, it's just like thinking about what is your intentions about entering it? Are you trying to contribute in a way that is helpful and wholesome and caring and supportive. Great. Is it wanted? Yes. Enter. Is it not. Go somewhere else. You can still hang out with those same people just not in that particular space that was designated at this time for this purpose.Dalia: And when you say it that way, not at this time and not this space, because I feel like a lot of people who seek out those spaces, that isn't how most of their day is, you know, it's just a little refuge and it certainly isn't that they don't want to have a fully integrated intersectional life.Dalia: Like you said, it's a break from having to explain certain things. And what's interesting is when sometimes you try and make things more and more broad. There's just more potential for issues because I have seen more on reality TV than in real life. Yes. White presenting, Latin people using certain racial slurs saying it's okay for them because they're down or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but you're not of the group that gets to use that word and they just kept on defending it. I'm just like, okay, we're just, you're canceled. We're moving on. So there are, there can be issues where people who you would expect to not be problematic come in and are.Dalia: And so maybe some people have been burned. A few times, and now they're just, they're exhausted and they don't want to put the energy into fielding out who is safe and who is not safe.Yael: And there's nothing wrong with that. Like it's not necessarily personal, it could be personal if you're one of those people, but even the question, right?Yael: Like I wanted to advertise a job position and so I seek to advertise them first in places of color and queer spaces. And so I contacted several different groups. Oh. And then, sorry, I remember there was a posting for a DEI position at a Jewish organization. And so I started to contact the admin of different POC, Jewish groups, like a Black Jewish group, or what have you.Yael: And I said, listen, I filled out their form to enter, but I was like, I don't actually want to enter. I'm wondering if you can share this link. So folks can see the job. I am a white presenting, a Latino Jew. I ended up getting messaged even by the Black group. And they're like, oh, you can join. I was like, Black is not part of my identity.Yael: Like we, because of the Caribbean, we have those roots as well. But like I don't claim that.Dalia: It's funny. I do feel like Black people in my experience. That's why I was so I've been surprised when people have told me, they were bullied. Black kids in school who are other POC is it's always surprising to me because the town that I was raised in and the part of the south that I'm from, people still were in that space of, if you we're different enough to maybe not be able to get into a whites only area, or if the clain would have targeted you too, cause clan is not down. They're very antisemitic, they're anti everything. But then you were welcome. Like if you wanted to sit at that table, you were always welcome. Just anybody who is being othered the policy was come on in. If you have nowhere else to go, we'll take you.Yael: That's lovely. I definitely know that that's not always true. And again, it's okay. I mean, the bullying is not okay. Deciding who's in your space is, but yeah, exactly. So like I was welcomed and obviously everyone's Jewish because it's a Jewish group.Yael: And so it's, it was specifically a space built for Jews, Black Jews and some Jews of color to have a reprieve from the white Jews. White Jews often mean, well, right? Like we fill up social justice spaces, like hardcores. I've spoken to people about this, that like insofar as percentage of folks who are involved in social justice by group, I imagine that our group is one of the most heavily social justice oriented.Yael: Cause we're so small and people are like you're everywhere, but it doesn't mean that we're doing it well or that we're doing it right. And so it can be exhausting to have white Jews around because we are those white saviory types.Yael: And yeah. So I was, I was surprised and I was like, well, okay. Like I will post it myself then afterwards. And she had, she had posted already and she had written my name and giving me credit. And like I said, this person wanted to let us all know about this job.Dalia: That's very cool. It's nice to find community, but it's also very nice to know that when you're trying to create a safe space around certain parts of our identity, that there are people who understand and support, because I'm sure it's hard for some people to hold that space.Dalia: And to not feel guilty about saying no sometimes. So it's nice to know that even if not everybody understands, some people totally understand and they're not gonna lose any sleep over it. They're just going to move on to the next Facebook group and they'll be fine. And maybe you'll run into each other in another space.Dalia: That's centered around an identity that you have in common.Yael: Yeah. Exactly. And so I think that's just like, it's kinda like building resilience and you might actually be in another POC group together, but not necessarily that one.Yael: And make everybody safe because I would hate to go into a space where I was told, Hey, women are welcome. Like this happens a lot. Well, not now that everybody's at home groups are really growing and there's like a group for everything. But previously it just felt like, like in the nineties, everything that was gay or LGBTQ was CIS male dominated.Dalia: Tell us about your company and what made you want to form a publishing company and what your vision is for that company?Yael: Sure. So my company's name is Kaleidoscope Vibrations, LLC . And for anyone who's an owner, kaleidoscope is it's like this toy that had all these like gems on the bottom and you'd move your hands in opposite directions around this tuby thing. And you'd look inside and it would be create new, pretty color combinations.Yael: And so the idea is that every vibration or event in your life creates a new beautiful you, and that our identities are always forming and they're always developing. And the reason I created this company was because I was this like Jew that wasn't Jewish enough. I was this Latina that I didn't think that I looked enough or counted enough.Yael: I was queer, but not queer enough. You know, like there are all these ways and this, I, I didn't feel like I should count. And that's, that's different, right? Like that's different than choosing whether or not you belong in a space as to whether or not you feel like you matter enough to be in a space or if you, you belong.Yael: And so I created this company to help people find confidence in their identities and find their communities. So maybe. You don't belong to blank community, but you do belong to another one and then you can find the people that you need so you have a supportive, loving environment that understands you.Yael: And so I do workshops, I do identity coaching, curriculum development like inclusivity in the workspace across different identities and what have you. But we also have a publishing sect, and that's the purpose is to uplift different narratives that aren't necessarily heard. And so the first book was mine, which is An Intro Guide to a Sex Positive You.Yael: Sex is not necessarily something you think of and you're like, oh, this is not inclusive, but it really is. And so my book, I know I had someone read it, who was like, I've been looking for a book that validated my experiences as a queer person while reading it that wasn't heteronormative, right. That wasn't geared towards straight people.Yael: And it's not that my book has hetero exclusive. You can be whatever matched you with. I just don't assume what you're going to match. And so I don't add genders into my conversations in the book and that like that in and of itself, apparently at the time was somewhat revolutionary for some folks. And the next book was Luna, Luna Si, Luna.Yael: Yes. Maybe it's that Luna? Yes. Luna Si. And it is a book about two little sisters who are Latino it's in English and in Spanish. And the younger sister has autism. And she is 40% verbal. And so we often see representations of savants, right? So, and they tend to be white males. And so you have these kids who have really incredible abilities to count numbers or to memorize things, or what have you.Yael: And they often do have very good verbal capacities. They have awkward social cues because they have trouble reading it, but that's like the extent to how they represent autism. Whereas in this case, like you see how she, how she is able to communicate the form that her language takes. And you do learn about like the kinds of things that she can do.Yael: You learn about stems. So like ticks that people do to keep themselves calm and well. And that was the intention, right? link that autism comes in all colors, all ethnicities, that there are varying levels of how much people can communicate and what, you know, how much need or help they might require.Yael: And yeah, and it just, that's, it it's a story about sisters and how they love each other and how they communicate and also one of them has autism. And so that intention of bringing those to the surface and yeah, we're working on a bunch of other different possibilities as well. Another one's about anxiety.Yael: So another bilingual book, but a little girl's anxiety and what that's looked like for her.Dalia: That's really helpful. I think that more and more children are experiencing anxiety earlier. So that's definitely needed. And it is interesting how ableism racism, xenophobia, how it all plays together and how you really don't see representation of people living with a diagnosis that aren't white it's. I mean, it's almost always going to be white to the extent that when you meet someone with something as common as down syndrome, who's Asian, you're like, wow. Like, oh, I didn't know. Obviously we can all get whatever we can be born, any kind of way, human diversity, it's just what we choose to feature. That makes it seem like we aren't as diverse as we are.Yael: But then it's also the like racism that exists within the publishing space. And so even when you do have some books that are more representative in that, like the pictures have kids of all different colors, it doesn't necessarily that the author is a person of color.Yael: And so with my company, you have to have either the identities that you are discussing or someone in your like close family, someone in your close life, and you have lived this with them, right. That you are experiencing this with them. So like the author of the book autism, t he person with autism, didn't write this.Yael: She doesn't write. But her sister wrote it. And so she has lived with her sister, her, the younger one's entire life, the one who has autism so entire life. And so that was like the perspective that we were able to take. And so it's very important to me that the people who are writing the stories also have lived experience.Yael: And it's not just about like, oh yeah, we need to mix A and B and with number 3 so that we can count in this diversity world where like, you're supposed to do this. Now it's about like, this is my story, and I want you to hear it.Dalia: And the way that people tell their own story is so different from how it's told by an observer.Dalia: And people can feel that difference. Sometimes it's so subtle, but you definitely, some things just they're very difficult to fake and so right now, a lot of companies. In all sectors, not just publishing people are faking the funk right now, and it's not pretty. So it falls flat. It's all kind of, oh, this just came to me.Dalia: Did you see that woman who has been saying that? She's...Yael: who said that she was Black from the Bronx in the Bronx and is a white Jew from Kansas.Dalia: Yes, she got the hoop earrings, she got the tan and she was like, I'm ready to rock. I do not understand how this has happened more than once in such a widely publicized way in my lifetime.Yael: So I actually, let's, let's break that down a bit. So first off, she's a, she is a white Jew, right? My friend is also a white Jew. Neither of them actually presents white. Like, if you look at them, that's not the identity you're going to give them because they were darker skin tones. Right. And so it's also interesting how whiteness works that like, because they are Jewish, they are given.Yael: Right. It just, that is also so interesting. But I remember someone commented, like how did no one realize like Afro Latinas don't come that light? And I was like, hold up a second way lighter than that woman. Right. There are people who identify as Black. That is their identity. Who are way lighter than this faker.Yael: And so my thing was, you should not fake who you are, but the fact that people believed her makes total sense to me.Dalia: But it seemed like to me, what was the most damning is how. Some of her clothing choices and accessory choices, maybe they speak to her, they were so sterotypical. It just seemed a little performative.Yael: She faked three different identities.Dalia: Oh, I didn't see that part.Yael: Afro Latina was her latest identity. The one before that was Black American, the one before that was north African. Okay. She moved across the globe.Yael: No one tracked this?! Like at one point she was north African and now she's Black and now she's Afro Latina from the Bronx specifically.Dalia: That's interesting too, that extra, that, that was so important for her to feature that what trips me out about it. And I think what really troubles a lot of people about it is to know that.Dalia: Race is not real to the extent that whatever you say could literally change your experience. You just have to keep saying it and buy some hoops and you can be another person. Like, it just, she went overboard with the, just so stereotypical, but you're right. It easily could have been true going off of skin color alone.Dalia: And some people do still dress that way, even though it's not the nineties anymore.Yael: But I love my hoops in the nineties.Dalia: I did too, you know, but they're like more modern with the embellishment. It has that like handcrafted feel. I don't know what happened with the hoops. It went out for me with letting my eyebrows finally try and grow back in, but I did use to be so, so into that. But at one point I also had a Jheri curl.Dalia: So I really shouldn't talk about anybody else's since its style, I've made many mistakes over the years. I really appreciate you sharing your perspective and coming on. Where can people find you? Sure.Yael: So my main thing is that I'm @yaelthesexgeek I'm a sexologist, sex coach, a sex educator.Yael: @yaelthesexgeek on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. My website is sexpositiveyou.com, so pretty easy. And then my company is kvibrations.com. And so you can find most of my things through there.Dalia: Awesome. You are doing so many different things. We didn't even touch on the sex positivity, maybe that's for another day.Dalia: Are you thinking of revisiting that book now that you know, we're kind of all in a different place as a country and as queer people? Or are there things you'd like to add? Are you going to revise that addition or write something new?Yael: Yeah. So the book is only two years old, but things change and shift so much, right? Like now there is so much more language outside of queer spaces around pronouns, but I think even in 2018, like the idea of talking about pronouns outside of queer spaces was still foreign for most, so. Yes, there are definitely, I've looked back and I'm like, oh, overall, I'm like, this is a good book.Yael: Just so you know, like people love my book and I go back, I'm like, oh, this was, this was better than you thought it was. Yes, there are, of course things I want to change, but I I'm looking into doing a teen workbook version of it. Because I wrote it for my 14 year old self, but I don't think parents of 14 year olds would be thrilled to have their kids read this book..Yael: And I think it's more of like a 16 and up kind of book. And I want to be able to reach people when they're younger because sexual trauma and boundary making and self pleasure and all of that is important before you are 18 or 16. And I also started, but I'm not going to have time right now, the nerds guide.Yael: So this is the intro guide and the nerds guide goes into the socio historical and psychological backgrounds. And so when you talk about things, Gender. I want to be able to talk about that are six sexes and genders are present in the Talmud in ancient Jewish text, rich and written 1500 years ago. I want to talk about the hijra in India, and that they have like that as a third gender that's established that how different native American communities have two spirit or don't have two spirit identities.Yael: And like, what does that mean and how do they conceptualize it? And just like, recognizing that there's so much more beyond what we talk about.Dalia: Yeah, that sounds really fascinating.Yael: Yeah. But that's going to take awhile. It's going to take research and I'm doing a PhD right now.Dalia: The list just keeps going.Yael: And that's on the back burner, that's like maybe if someone gives me a book deal, I'll work on that.Dalia: I love it. Oh, excellent. Thank you so much for coming on.Yael: Thank you for having me.Yael: I always, I really enjoy talking with you and Dalia.Dalia: Same here. Same here. You'll have to come back when you finish your nerd book or I'm sure, actually you're doing many things. I'm sure it'll be before then. Sounds good. Get full access to Body Liberation for All at daliakinsey.substack.com/subscribe

Nhakia Outland (she/her/hers) is the founder of Prevention Meets Fashion Inc. She is a Black, queer, single mother of three. She is a social worker, sex educator, sex therapist in training and professor at Temple University with an extensive background in advocacy, consulting and community organizing who is passionate about finding creative ways to engage Black, LGBTIA+ communities. Nhakia's work focuses on addressing stigma and inequalities in sexual health and reproductive health (SRH) through fashion, advocacy, community and education (F.A.C.E).This episode we exploreThe impact affirming clothing can have on mental healthFinding and celebrating your aestheticThe connection between sexual health and fashion Episode Resourceshttps://www.preventionmeetsfashion.org/https://www.thecrownact.com/Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body LiberationBali Retreat March 19-25 2023Hello, and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I'm your host, Dalia Kinsey holistic registered dietitian and author of Decolonizing Wellness.This show and my work overall is dedicated to amplifying the health and happiness of BIPOC and LGBTQIA+ people.Today we're joined by Nhakia Outland. The founder of Prevention Meets Fashion. She's a black queer, single mother of three. She's a social worker, sex educator, sex therapist in training, and a professor at Temple University with an extensive background in advocacy consulting and community organizing. She's passionate about finding creative ways to engage Black, LGBTQ+ communities.Nhakia's work focuses on addressing stigma and inequalities in sexual health and reproductive health through fashion advocacy, community, and education.Nhakia and I had this conversation quite a while ago, so I'm excited to be able to bring it to you today. At the time of the episode was recorded the website for Prevention Meets Fashion wasn't up but now it is. So you can see that in the show notes and check out the events calendar. I love that the condom streetwear fashion show is an annual event.Nhakia has a lot of fabulous things going on through this nonprofit. And it was really interesting to hear about her creative process and what brought her to form the nonprofit.Before we jump into that conversation. I want to remind you that I will be hosting my first in-person retreat in Bali next March, that's March 2023. If you're hearing this and it's pre March, 2023, there may still be space. So be sure check out daliakinsey.com/retreat to see the details. It's going to be an amazing event. As always it will be centered on LGBTQIA+ BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, and People of Color). However, if you are not an LGBTQIA+ BIPOC person, that doesn't mean that you can't come to the retreat.There will be a couple of healing circle events. That'll be sacred spaces for QTBIPOC folks. So those will not be events where everybody can come in and take up space. However, there will be plenty of other events that are for everyone. So if you were interested in taking a more liberatory approach to your wellness and you've done a lot of work on your own and you feel like this could be a catalyst for your growth then definitely check it out. It isn't going to be a beginner oriented event as far as healing work goes. If you've never done therapy, if you've never, read a self-help book, if you've never been in any sort of coaching situation and you're kind of new to the concept of systemic oppression having an impact on your wellness, then it's probably not the place for you to start.The retreat really is designed for people who already have an awareness of these things and are wanting to dig deeper and really wanting to be in a space where they can totally unwind and focus on the physical experience of comfort and freedom in their body. So that it's something we'll be able to re-create with ease when we get back home. The facilities are gorgeous. We'll have a chef cooking for us three meals a day. There are lots of excursions planned. We'll have one-on-one time with a Balinese healer. There will be massages. It's going to be really luxurious, but then at the same time, a little crunchy, which is totally my vibe. We'll have a touch of the outdoors. We'll be in an eco-friendly setting, but then at the same time, we're going to have access to all of our creature comforts.It's going to be great. If you can join us, you absolutely should. Go to daliakinsey.com/retreat to reserve your spot. Alright, let's get on into this conversation.Body Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It's your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.My name is Nhakia Outland. I am the founder and president of Prevention Meets Fashion Incorporated. We are a 501C3 nonprofit based in Philadelphia, but we will go anywhere. And our mission is to increase sexual health and knowledge in communities of color Black, LGBTQIA and nonbinary communities through fashion advocacy, community education, which stands for FACE. It is a model that I created to be able to look at the intersections of sexual health, reproductive health, racial injustice, disability rights all of these other what I call social determines of health as well into one model, instead of just naming them all the time.We look at the intersections of how many of those can be placed in fashion. How any of those could be placed in advocacy and in community and education, which to our advantage came out as face, which is a ballroom category. Which we're very excited about because my favorite category in ballroom is face.I just love when the community comes out and shines that way like, it seems like nothing else matters, but that person's face. And to see that in community that's really been, you know, hurt so many times again and again especially Black LGBTQ folks that just lights my world up when I go to ballroom competitions.But yes, I'm so excited to finally be a nonprofit. What a lot of people don't know is that we've actually been around for four years. Once I really started getting into the nitty gritty of Prevention Meets Fashion, I realized that it would, it would be so much better in a nonprofit structure to be able to open ourselves to getting grants, to getting more support to writing more curriculum and programming. So a lot of folks that follow us on Instagram and they just, you know, sometimes think that we just post, but that's the labor of love of hours of research putting snippets together to have those words in the little, in the little caption.I actually take the time my interns take the time my volunteers take the time to research things, to make sure that we're getting our perspective right.To make sure that we're getting voices heard. On our Instagram, we take it very seriously, I once said when I started this, that to me, that Instagram is just not a place for us to post pretty pictures it really is more than that for us.I remember when I first started, I talked about how I used fashion come out to my family over a certain, a number of years as queer.And I showed a picture of when I got my hair shaved on one side and how freeing that was to me for many aspects for one, I had just lost my partner.So you weren't a kid, you were an adult living outside of the home.Yes. And so I had just lost my partner and, you know so when I had shaved the side of my head, it was a freeing moment. Not only for me verbalizing my queer identity, but also that that I was shedding something that reminded me of my partner, cause they always liked my hair. So I was talking about that and someone took my whole face, whole caption, put it on there, their Instagram and people were tagging me like this is your face.And I'm like, do you know that I'm a real person? And they literally were using it. The message was correct. I think before that, but I'm a real person like you use my whole face and my whole story.Was this person, a member of the community? Yes! This person was a member of the community and a fellow, a sex educator. And this was not the first time that they did this. They actually. Took other posts and I had to call him out on it, you know, and I don't what to do that, but at least give me my credit, especially when it's my face. So I stopped a little bit from actually using my images. And the purpose of me using my images, was one, for people to know that I'm a real person, but for, two to show representation to y'all queer Black folks out there that that don't get seen as much.And to let them know that, you know, we're here, we're in every profession. You know, come and visit us, you know, and as I was like, really taken back by this, so I stopped showing my image for a while, but then the pandemic happened and people were, were like, you know, I don't think people know that you're Black owned or queer owned at all because you don't have no pictures of yourself anymore. So I began posting pictures of myself, again, posting pictures of my interns, posting pictures of my community stuff that I was doing. I do admit that I am a little bit shy and I don't give myself enough credit with Prevention Meets FashionI'm a social worker by trade and I decided to take everything, all of my experience and I absolutely adore the meaning behind fashion. And how has been used in black communities. How is being used in queer communities? Oftentimes when our voices were silenced, our clothes were loud.Interesting that you made the point though, that people don't understand how damaging it is to a small creator, small business to steal ideas, but that is the story of the Black creative's life. Like that's the story of small queer businesses. Cause you think about all the ways in which queer folks, especially queer folks of color lead the way with culture and with fashion.And how often is that stolen? And the original designer creator doesn't ever see the profits that come from their original baby, their original idea.And I, I struggled too, along the lines, just to piggyback off of that. I struggle with the Black designers who have made it.And a lot of them, you listen to a lot of them speak and how they built this from the ground up. And then they make it sort of speak and then they give credit to the Italian designer. So the white designer, oh, about what's underneath their fish and house. Then my name wouldn't be out here. The same thing with music.Like why do we feel like we have to partner with someone that don't look like us to make us big. Right. And I struggle with it. Can you speak to that? Because I've seen that issue even in myself, even as I've decided to center my show, to center my work around my queer identity and my POC identity, I still find myself being drawn when people like dangle something in front of me, that's not serving the community that I believe I'm meant to serve and I'm called to serve. I still feel like, oh, it's a shiny object because I, like so many people, was raised to think proximity to whiteness is proximity to success. And even though, especially the way things are shifting now, we definitely don't need them.People need us, but because we're the ones who've been socialized to believe the opposite, we keep falling for it. So what do you do when you see that in yourself? Is that something that can only be addressed on a systemic level? Where you never affected by that?I think I would be lying if I say I wasn't affected by that. Even if you look at my identity as a social worker, right. I was trained as a social worker, a lot of the curriculum is based on white supremacist thoughts and ideas and racism. And it wasn't until last year that I found out that there is a whole curriculum around African centered social work. I've been a social worker for over 15 years and I never, ever outside of the Black NASW (The National Association of Black Social Workers), I never knew it was a social work curriculum around African centered and how to work with Black and African community.And so I started taking those courses and webinars during the pandemic to help myself unlearn the white supremacist culture and ideologies, that I was perpetuating, you know. The whole fact that white supremacy culture values, individualism, right? And then you make it and worry about everything else later. For Black community and Black queer communities, what's innate to us is to have a village behind us, but yet I was pushing back on this because it's like, I was conditioned and raised to you're an individual. We get on the young rappers, these young kids when they make it and they bring their village with them. Yes. It's some folks that you don't necessarily need to bring with you and that's a different story, but the fact that we get on known for bringing their community with them, that's something that's innate to them and they don't know it.You know? I was even talking about how we was taught to look at pouring liquor out as being something bad. Right. And it wasn't until I started really looking into our culture that we did this historically, we did this to our ancestors. We do that when we do libations right. I've even looked into fashion and, and death and how cultures around the world use fashion to symbolize death and how our young folks do that with t-shirts.Right? So the t-shirts is so much more powerful. And I, I talked about this on my Instagram and how a t-shirt is not just a t-shirt. It has a lot of social justice and a lot of racism behind the t-shirt. Because if you think about it, t-shirts were made out of cotton Black folks pick the cotton, what Black folks couldn't afford to have the whitest of the white.So when you could afford the whitest of the white, you know, it was valued. So you, you didn't go outside, you didn't get dirty. And those, you know, those was your Sunday's best. That was for you dressing up to put on this image that we're not poor, that we're not these feeble-minded people, that people, that don't look like us, that we were.So if you look at that today, think about how we get dressed up to go to work. Think about how we get dressed up to go in, in town. You know, all of those things, whether it be young folks or either of us know that we're doing it, it has historical roots and that's what we want to bring to Prevention Meets Fashion.And we really want folks to understand that fashion is not frivolous. It means a lot. And to look at it as such is doing it a disservice, you know us wanting nice things comes from a historical racist background, you know, we want it, our parents, our grandparents, our great, great grandparents wanted us to have nice things.Nice things meant something.I don't know if you've had a chance to visit the African-American history museum in DC. So there's the way they've got it set up. It's basically, you start out at the lowest/roughest points in Black American history. And then as you go up in the building, you know, we bounce back. So you're like traumatized at the start. Then they have this resting area it's really pretty where people break down, you know, there's water flowing where you can just relax and recover and then you continue on up and you get to where people are clearly developing their own culture, which is a blend of who we were before we were brought to the United States and who we became here.And there's this big section on fashion after the civil war, among Black Americans being so incredibly important as not just a status marker, but part of that desire to prove and validate your humanity through things that people can see as soon as they look at you. So part of that was definitely beautiful when you think about the intentions behind it, but then heartbreaking when you think about how many of us internalize that belief that we have to prove and validate our humanity instead of just letting white supremacy be a white supremacist problem. But it really explains why that's such a big part of Black American culture to be well-dressed and why we still give people the side eye when they come to church and holey jeans and flip flops, how that's like beyond most Black folks comprehension, but you see it all the time and white American churches, but they don't have to validate their humanity.So they don't have that same tradition of you need to try and wear your status markers.Last month on the 20th, we had our annual fashion condom show and our theme was Wearing Social Justice. And so we had the designers who are novice designers from the community. Everything that we do at Prevention Meets Fashion is community based and community led.And so we had these designers and we wanted to see their interpretations of wearing social justice. So folks picked to do condom designs as bell-bottoms condom designs as denim, as pocketbooks that resembled like the disco ball for music and the best in hair, because, you know, right now we're going through hair discrimination laws, and in Pennsylvania, they still haven't signed on to the Crown Act.And so it was amazing. What is that? I don't think I know about that.So the Crown Act is a bill that is trying to get passed in each state to ban hair discrimination among black folk. So the right to wear our own hair. So we have to get a law to have to be able to on hair and to be able to close this out that we created for creativity, for style or survival, we have to have a law to be able to do that.Wow. I mean, I knew that that was needed. I didn't think we were anywhere near that point. So I didn't even know because you see, I have my hair dreaded, but I live in a very black area and a lot of the stigma has fallen away. But I know when I first dreaded my hair, people still told me, oh, you won't ever be able to get a job with your hair dreaded.But I actually told HR I was doing it before I did it, which is ridiculous that I would have to, because it's such a natural style, but it was never an issue. But everyone around me kept saying it would be. And that wasn't because they were paranoid. That was based on real experiences they had.Yeah. And, and like what you said, like unpacking what you said about you having to go to HR to see if you could lock your hair. And I don't ever think I've heard of a conversation where someone that wasn't black had to go to HR and say, can I dye my hair blonde? We think about things like that.I remember when I first started coloring my hair, which I was well into my career. I've always wanted to color my hair, but that held me back because I needed a job. You know, I had kids I needed to provide for myself when I got to this point in my life where I just said F it, like, I want to color my hair.So I went to the extreme, the first thing I did was dye my hair blue, and then it went to green and then it went to blonde. I was affirmed at my job because it's an LGBTQ organization, but I don't think if I would've stayed in counseling, that would have been appropriate. Right. And I don't know if I would have been as happy because that's the way I express myself through my hair. I express myself through my clothes. So those jobs where I had to wear suits and shoes all day, I just couldn't do it.I really couldn't like I have no problem wearing a suit but I want to put on sneakers with it, you know, on a platform with it. Or I want to wear a military boot. I don't want to have to, to look at or to appear as people think women identifying folks shouldlook.Yes. Well, and that's a whole nother layer. I think with identity and clothing is if you don't identify in this super binary way that. It creates even more anxiety for you to be in work environments that are really rigid about how they want people to dress, because it's an important, maybe to some people it's not important at all. But to me, even the fact that I've really like plain clothes is a big part of my identity.It required some level of awarenesst about how much I detested dresses to get to this plain point that we're at right now. This was a process. So in your experience professionally, how much does the stress of having to dress in ways that don't suit you? How negative of an impact can that have on people?Well, it definitely could have a negative impact on your mental health. I mean, it does have an impact on your mental health, right? Because I think we throw around a term if you look good, you feel good a lot, but it's actually true. It's actually when you look good and feel good, it's actually science behind it and the endorphins and everything that's in your, that feel good in your body.It increases it. You know? I know that when, you know, my eyebrows are not done or my hair not done, I feel completely down and you can tell in my clothes because I dress that way as well. And then when I get my eyebrows done, I feel like everything is better.It definitely has a connection. And I've talked about it numerous times on our Instagram and in person. And so, so even like what you said, even the folks who get up and don't want to iron and just throw something on you're intentionally thinking whether you realize it or not, that's your aesthetic, you're intentionally doing that.That's what you like to wear, you know? So I, I really don't like when folks say, they can't dress. Some folks dress to what they think they should be dressing like or what someone told them, they look nice in and then they keep repeating it over and over. Instead of looking inside and figuring out what do I like, what do I look nice in and taking that component and then building upon it.So, what we want to teach people to do is what, first off, like what, what makes you feel good? Let's start there, right? Don't look in this magazine or social media or whatever you're looking at. And, and copy someone else's feel-good outfit because most of the time that's a stylist put that on that person.They might not even like what they, what they put on a stylist, put that on them. Right. So what makes you feel good? And let's build upon that. And this is your look. There is no one way to be or dress queer. And I think when we Google, how to dress queer, you get white, skinny folks, you know, you don't get, or if you do get a Black image is always us in this masc of center look right.You don't get that androgynous type person. And I consider my aesthetic very androgynous and athletic. You don't get that. I'm a chameleon, my clothes you will get anything from super sexy to super athletic wear. And I merge them somehow because that's me, you know, but it took me years to figure that out.It took me years to be comfortable with it.Tell me more about your journey to this point, because I know for a lot of people, fashion is so problematic because it's been linked to promoting only one body type as attractive. Promoting a lot of classism and a lot of fixation on really just keeping the fashion machine going.So we think about fast fashion and there was a time in US history where it would have been normal to get clothes from someone who made them in the community. And these would be clothes that would last you a very long time. They were probably cut to fit your particular body, the way you wanted it to fit.And you could wear it for years. Whereas now you see a lot of manipulation in the marketing to push people to say, this is what you should be wearing right now. And it just doesn't feel like a good place to a lot of people when it comes to self-expression. So what was your journey like with your relationship with fashion and when did you see the connection between your social work and the sexual health background that you have and what you're doing now?My connection to fashion began early on. My parents were military parents. And so when they got out the military and I was old enough to be able to look at things and, and see and understand their military background, we would look in these huge photo albums. And I would just like adore my mom and like her bell bottoms and her afro, I have finer hair, as you can see really loose wave, like type thing.My mom has really coarse hair. I always envy not being able to have an Afro, I've never had that type of hair, like, you know? And so and I joke my dad doesn't have hair anymore, but my mom, like, you have his side of the family hair.And so I'm like, okay. I grew up looking at these photo albums and looking at my mom and bell bottoms and, you know, clogs and artists other stuff. So I would like, I immediately gravitated towards all of that because of course I wanted to look like my mom. But slowly but surely my mom took this to the extreme and started putting me in girly, girly stuff.Like, you know, all the lace and everything was one color. And I rebelled. And so she started taking me to the store and like, what do you want? And I'm very close to my brother. And so I'm like, I want to look like my brother. And so I would pick out sweatpants and like a real big shirt and I had body self-conscious issues. I didn't realize until I got older, like why boys and men like, now I know that they were sexualizing me.So I didn't like that attention. I started putting on baggier clothes, but yet I would still put on a heel. So I would wear the baggy, this is the style you see now I did back in the nineties. Right. And so I didn't see that it's a Mary J came out and I literally broke down and cry because I was like, here's this woman who was like wearing baggy jeans, wearing baggy shirts. But people still liked her.I didn't even think of that as a turning point, but yeah. Now that you say it, that totally resonates. So, you know, it was first that Little Kim stage, that overly sexy stage. I went through that and my mom allowed me to, like, I credit my mom a lot for allowing me to, to develop who I am today. Overtime. I, again, I started coming into my fashion aesthetic, which obviously I went back to the athletic wear. But as I was developing, that was where I was leaning towards. And it was this point in my life where I know I started realizing that I was attracted to other genders other than the opposite gender.I didn't really act on it when I was younger. Because Me wearing the sweatpants and shirts. Like I remember the first time someone called me a dyke and I cried. So I stopped dressing like that and went overly sexy again.Right. Totally not me. And I was trying so hard.And that was even before you started noticing that you were also attracted to women. Oh, that's interesting.And so then, you know, it was my brother who was like, you know, stop this, you know, he's younger a year younger than me. He's like, stop this. You be you.Like, so what, like, if they call you a dyke, you be the best dyke. it doesn't even matter. Like you, you be, you, you don't, you don't change for no one else. You don't do you. You dress the way you want to dress. So then, you know, I started dialing down the bagginess and came to a happy medium.But over that time, I started realizing that I was using my fashion to come out. I was using my fashion to display my mood. Fashion would actually help my mood. I was really depressed when I was younger.I was a teen mom twice, but when I became a mom at 17, of course, that dialed back because now I had to put that money into my child. And I remember friends that went to high school with me was like oh, she fell off, you know, I knew it wasn't going to last, like, it was almost like they was waiting for it to like, I knew that wasn't going to dress this way anymore.You know, now she's a mom and I'm like, no, it's the opposite. I could still afford it, but is it worth it? You know, my priorities started to shift now it was on to my two children that I had to raise. Right. And so it wasn't that I fell off.I grew up. I think folks they grow up at their own. And so when I see folks spending all this money on stuff and making them happy,I'm like, do you, who cares what anyone else is saying? You want to spend $400 on a belt spend it, you know, but just make sure that your priorities, they're straight as well.As a social worker, how do you tell the difference between a maladaptive coping mechanism that is hurting the person and they probably actually need something else, something more sustainable and something that just, it doesn't hurt, you know, or it really is something that brings them joy? How do you recognize the difference in yourself even?I mean, well, of course I did self-assessment but for clients, I do a little assessment. Right. And I don't shame them. I remember it was this client who, and I just told this story, but I remember it was a client who just got diagnosed with HIV. I remembered this and she was a young mother, had three cute little boys and she was living in an abandoned minivan and she just wanted to keep buying her sons these Jordans.And of course Jordan's are a hundred dollars to, depending on the size of your feet, a piece. So she was spending close to $500 every couple of months or sneakers, but yet living in abandoned minivan. And so I didn't shame her for it, but when she came in, I, you know, I said, oh, those are really nice sneakers, but what would that look like if you had took just a hundred dollars a day and went to the sneaker store and let's say for some Nike, some $40 Nike's for each of your kids or target some light up sneakers.Cause they were little. What would that have looked like? And then save the rest for you to be able to get a hotel room. So you can have all your kids in one space or save up to get an apartment so that you can have running water and heat. What would that have looked like? So I challenged this client without shaming them to look at how they were spending their money.Yes. That made you feel good because you needed that you needed to feel good about your situation that you was in. So it made you feel good to be able to buy your kids, these sneakers, to be able to have your kids look like other kids, but in the interim, you were hurting yourself and you were hurting your kids because you really didn't have it.And so I take approaches like that with clients, especially when they use fashion as a coping tool. Fashion does not solve everything. You can put on a million dollars worth of clothes and still be sad and depressed or hate your body. We need to fix that. And then you can add those other layers on for some folks, you know, clothing protects them, but that protection is temporary.When you take that off, then what you just, you, you have to be satisfied with who you're looking at in a mirror. So it is definitely as much deeper, you know, and so through that we created our Affirming Fashion program, which is a program where we give clients clothing on emergency basis.So we don't have an income threshold or anything. If you need clothing, you need clothing, and if we have it, we're going to give it to you. We also do groups about affirming fashion and surveys to get the community feel on what affirms you. You know, we have a lot of gender non-conforming non-binary folks that follow us and it's affirming to them to have fashion that affirms their identity.And so we want to do that. We want to be this resource. So we, we definitely talk about how fashion is affirming, how fashion is self-care and how fashion is more than a look at Prevention Meets Fashion.I think affirming clothes can be really tough if you're still a kid and you don't get to make those decisions, or maybe you just don't have the money to dress yourself the way you want to. I've seen a couple of nonprofits helping with things like binders, but then I've also wondered for younger kids too how do you guide people on dressing in a way that affirms your gender that can't also hurt you? Because some people are so deeply uncomfortable and they're not in a position to get surgery now and they want to bind 24 hours a day.You know, does the nonprofit also deal with education around that piece? Sometimes you can't get a hundred percent there with what it's going to take for you to really be comfortable and be yourself, but in the meantime, you don't want to hurt yourself. Yes, we actually do, but we actually bring folks in to talk about that. I could read a million books on binding and what it's like, but part of being a community organization is getting those folks with that lived experience. So we absolutely bring folks in or connect folks to resources that they can then ask those questions to someone. I never want to speak on something that I haven't really experienced or feel that I don't know enough about.And binding is one of those things. Like I know that it can be affirming, but I also know from the medical side, how damaging it can be. Right. So I definitely connect folks to the needed resources that they need to get those questions, especially with younger kids, because they shouldn't be binding 24 hours a day.You know, I do know that it's a time limit depending on how old you are with how long you should be binding or even if it is appropriate to bind at that age, whatever age it is. As far as clothes go, I really haven't hit any younger parents really talk to me about that is mainly teenagers and up, but younger folks, I really haven't had anyone.And now that you brought it up, but watch I get a call I really haven't had any younger folks or parents talk to me about how they can dress their younger kids and affirm from them. For one, I commend a parent if they do reach out to me, because then that means that they are a step ahead of parents who absolutely will not be having it at all.Right. And so I definitely want to guide them in the right direction. As far as affirming fashion and, and wearing the clothes that affirms the youth, but also we got a small grant to hire community members to teach technical skills, such as sewing and crochet. The premise behind it was to also get LGBTQ folks and Black folks involved in stem and how STEAM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) can be a part of fashion, you know, taking that A and doing something with it, but also to give folks a starter for how you can make your own clothes, if you can't afford.Because that's beyond, as affirming clothes cost a lot, you know, androgynous type clothes or all those clothes. They cost a lot. Yeah. There was a time in the nineties when remember almost everybody still was sewing as a hobby and there were craft stores everywhere, and fabric was not expensive, but as fast fashion got cheaper and cheaper and cheaper, it became more expensive to make your own clothes. There were always clothes that you could of course shop in the men's section, which I used to do a lot before puberty, before these inconvenient curves got in the way that make men's wear implausible sometimes without altering. Altering is a really, really handy skill because if you thrift, then you could alter your clothes to make them more gender-affirming.And that's the premise behind the sewing. And so Daisy is our instructor who's coming on board and they use, she, and they pronouns.They are all about like teaching mending and how to up-cycle. And that's something that we want because let's say you get clothes from my Affirming Fashion program, or you go to another, like a trans clothing closet or a thrift store or whatever. And you want to make it your own. Now you have these soft skills to be able to make this outfit your own using other stuff that's in your house. So they talk about how you can take a t-shirt apart and use parts of it to make this how you can. If you have jeans that are really old how you can take the pockets off and make something else out of it, or make a pocketbook out of it, or a book bag or bag or whatever you want to call it.So using what you have to be able to lessen that financial barrier that's out there. Because right now, as you said, a few minutes ago, it's very performative. Every designer right now has a genderless fashion line right now, because again, they think that folks like you and I are trends and we're, we're not.It's heartbreaking to know that if you're someone who may be hasn't thought it through, or you're kind of new to the concept that like this always happens, you know, a smaller group of people has a need and the dominant culture refuses to fill it or address it. And the smaller group creates their own solution. And then everybody sees the sales and swoop in and put the smaller companies out of business.So I could see some people thinking, oh, this is great. Look at what Zara is doing all of the sudden and thinking, oh, this company supports me. They see me. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't like, I'm not trying to throw any shade at them in particular. But think of all the other companies who have to charge higher prices because they've got smaller production and maybe also they have ethical production, it just happens to cost more money.There are so many levels to the benefits and really thinking about, oh, what's a garment that's going to last once your sense of fashion kind of levels out. I mean, there are some people who just love to continually buy accessories, but I feel like as I've gotten older now that I know exactly what I feel best in, I don't really have any desire to keep adding things to my wardrobe.I pretty much wear things til the wheels fall off and then replace them with something that almost looks exactly the same.Well, you definitely I'm blanking on the term, but I think it is called a repetitive fashion and you're not the only one that does it. Like Simon Cowl does it. Right. White t-shirts basic pants. Right. You're not the only one that does that. And this is actually the psychology behind why folks do that, you know, it's cause people remember that. That's your brand, that's your look. So people think that they think that they're being not intentional, but they are being intentional, if that makes sense. And another thing about the pandemic, like over pandemic, I started posting about shopping your own closet, right? So a lot of times we have those staples in our closet. But because we keep adding stuff on top of stuff, they get buried, they get buried. So I've challenged people to go into their closet, take everything out and look at everything right.And put it into I wore it. I don't wear it, you know, needs to be donated type of piles. And I've even challenged myself to do it. Cause I'm one of those people that see something like, oh, I don't have this. And then I go in my closet and like, oh shoot. I do, you know, because I wasn't organized. And so I challenged myself to get organized and to look at what I had in my closet and just add staples that I didn't have instead of rebuying, rebuying and rebuying.And I donated a lot. I gave a lot as well. I am a fan of clothing swaps, but of course when COVID happened, a lot of folks, you know, weren't able to do that. A lot of folks. Especially with the information going out that COVID can live on your clothes. It couldn't, you know, people were really afraid to like swap clothes and stuff like that, but I'm a fan of it.Because you know, I can give someone something that I no longer wear and gets something that's essentially new. Cause that's what you're looking for. Right. That's the feeling that you're looking for, that you're getting something new that you're getting a package. And I know you asked earlier, how does that lead to sexual health?And that is one of the love languages, right to receive stuff. So I think that's why also gravitate towards fashion and, and stuff like that because that's something you can receive. And I noticed my love language I love to receive and I love to give right. So that's how it also relates to sexual health.But also we've been talking about how it relates to sexual health since we began this conversation since we're talking about identities and expression, and all of that is tied up with sexual health. Sexual health is not just about sex. It's about the mind, body and spirit it's about everything. And so when you look good, you feel good when you're comfortable in what you're in, you're able to express that and have that confidence with your partner or partners.You know, a lot of times people don't wear lingerie or don't wear, you know, cute underwear because they're not happy with their body. Right. And what would that look like to have a partner? That's been like, you know what? You, you look nice in those boxers. It doesn't have to be based on what you see on TV or any of it.You look good in those boxers. And just that one little thing could change someone's whole mood and feeling, you know, instead of them looking at what society projects as appealing or whether it's, you know, a male or female gaze, you know? I know I've had to personally check people because I don't like to see cutesy underwear.I don't like it. Give me a pair of boxers in a heartbeat. I will, I will wear boxers. Like I like boys shorts. I like boxers. I like full-coverage underwear. I don't have thongs. And, and again, as a, as someone who studies sexual health, that's not good for folks with vaginas anyway it can cause micro lesions, like it's just not sanitary.Oh. So underwear like that, that's not good for vaginal health could probably increase your risk for STI because you'll have more tiny cuts that you can't say. Now that's a bigger sham. That's a, I think of all the layers, because the part of the country where I was raised in sex ed in the school system was basically abstinence.And that was also kind of the story at home. So certainly didn't get any kind of sex ed that would be useful for same sex couples. And even when you go to a physician, even now in 2021, No one seems to know anything about STIs between women. No one seems to know, like there's just not enough research there, or maybe people aren't going to continuing ed classes.I don't know what's going on, but there are so many knowledge deficits that I feel we have. And then there's so many things that culturally cis women in particular have been trained to do that compromise your sexual health even further, like removing all of your pubic hair. That was another barrier that could help prevent STI and oh wow.And nobody tells you this stuff before you remove it. And what if you removed it permanently? Which a lot of people did when that becameWell people to today still don't care. I go in our, during our condo Fisher show, I did a condom party and I talked about. All things condoms. Cause we always do that for our condom party. And someone that was on the Zoom was like, well, I was showing them a dental dam and showing them how to use a dental dam. And they were like, well, the person I'm with need to remove their hair. And I said, why? You know? And they couldn't tell me why, because I just always thought they need to remove their hair before oral sex.Right. I'm like, no, do you remove your hair before you ask for oral sex? This was a male, someone with a penis and I'm like, do you remove your hair before you ask for, so why are you asking your partner, who they disclose was a cis female to remove their hair? If you're not removing your hair? When like, think of the double standards there.You know, and this is also what images you see. Right? You see you see these images of getting waxed then and everything for female-identified folks, but you never see melody, identify folks get waxed. And if you do, they put them in, they automatically put them into the gay category. They're get like, no, you know, waxing is not an identity.Right. You know, it's a choice, like either you wax or you don't, but that should be someone's choice. I've told people too, if that's something that you want to do wax or shave, use it as a partner activity, like use it as eroticism. Like you shave me, I'll shave you.Like, you know what I mean?Well, I had a question about that, so, and this may be completely bogus or outdated, but. Back in the day, they used to say don't shave don't floss the day before an encounter with a partner that you're not in a closed relationship with or who you've been tested with. Is there any truth to that? It is. It actually is. So again, when you're, when you get waxed or you shave, you want to at least give yourself 24 to 48 hours, because again, you don't know nicked yourself anywhere. You want to give the skin a chance to heal a little bit because you can get infections flossing, your gums, and brushing your teeth.Yes, we do say don't do that as a risk reduction, even though it's a low, a low risk when you're looking at the HIV scale. So it was high, medium, and low. It's a low. It's still a risk. And so, you know, you want to make sure that you're giving people all the information too, so that they can make an informed decision.And I think that's why I don't carry the line anymore, but I used to carry a line of flavored lubes and this particular company actually worked with a dental hygienist to come up with do, that was flavored. That was actually good for your teeth and gums and stuff, because people were worried about their breakfast stuff like this.So they actually came up with one that was really good for oral sex that, so that people wouldn't have to worry about the, the breath,Oh, after tasting like that after,So you ate something or whatever like that it was, it was, yeah. So I thought that was really cool. I, I don't carry them anymore because it upends them mimic.Like I just wasn't, you know, pushing products and I don't have a website anymore. So hopefully once I get my website up and running, I could be able to offer tools like that. Cause I don't think people know that there's options out there, like what it is. Actually. I love debunking myths and you know, a lot of myths come with truth.And if people just know the right thing, then you know, you're doing your due diligence,Yeah. I mean, it's really helpful to have all the information because to me, things that you do to groom your body and fashion, like it's all part of the same thing and everybody has their own aesthetic, but then you, sometimes you form these preferences without knowing what other things you might be sacrificing.So for you, if you can still grow your bush back, you might want it. Like, I don't know, once you weigh it all out, plus, you know, fashion goes in cycles. There was a time when everybody wanted to be totally bare and then people started doing more designs and then some people just want to go all the way back natural. It's interesting though. Once you think about all the different images we're exposed to about this is the ideal body ageism is definitely is a big issue because I don't know that I've ever seen gray body hair depicted anywhere. People get gray hair everywhere, but you just never see it. It seems like people usually don't discover that that doesn't click until they get their first gray body hair and they're like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't know this was going to happen.Or they shave or they dye it. You know, it's just like this, this scary thing to people that you're aging. And I never looked at it that way when I was little, I used to tell my grandma, I can't wait to get, you know, salt and pepper hair like you.And everybody's like, well, I would dye my hair and I'm like, no, like I love my grandma. I can't wait to look like my grandma. Right. But people try to hide things. And of course I had, I was so happy when I got like two strands and then I cut my hair and it went away and never grew back. So hopefully, hopefully as I age, I get my grandma's salt and pepper hair.I would love that, you know you know, also as remembering her, she passed away, three years ago in April. So yeah, I would love that, you know, I've always embraced my body hair, which I had a conversation with someone is really a touchy subject for me because I'm Muslim and you really can't have body hair.And so it's, so, you know, when I chose to have or keep my body here and my, and if my partners was Muslim, that was an issue. Right. Men and women, both can't have body hair. And so and so that was a huge issue for me in advocating, especially in the sexual health space, where you have advocates, like, yeah, keep your hair. And I'm like, you're not, again, you're not thinking culturally on how something. Cool because of religion.I literally never heard of that before. And I know so many Muslim people.Cleanliness and being clean cleanse for your partner, for your, so yeah, I definitely struggled with things, you know a lot. I get dinged every now and again on it, but yeah, but again, being in public health is like, is, is needed, right?I am a person with a vagina. I don't want infections. I don't want any bacteria. When I'm in the community, I'm walking more. So now you have sweat and, you know materials rubbing against, and that's a barrier. I don't want to shave it. You know, all these different things that you know, that we don't think about. Pubic hair does for us and shields us from.Right, right. That's a really good point. That's so, it's so interesting too. When you think about the things that are going to change in the body as you age, that people don't generally discuss, because they're so cagey about aging, it's it can be very handy for other reasons, too, just as all muscles begin to relax, you know, not everything is going to stay in the same position it was when you were a teenager. So just something else to think about.Where can people connect with your brand now? And when you have people come in doing the tutorials, you said you're not just bound to your state, are these something that people can sign up for online?Yeah. So right now where, you know, obviously I'm trying to raise money so that we can create a website and have a more.This have more of a reach for folks, but right now we're on Instagram, @preventionmeets fashion, and we have a link tree and all of our events all of our donation buttons, everything that we're doing is, is dumped into our link tree. Also you can find me on LinkedIn under my name, Nhakia T Outland MSW.I believe that's how it is on here. Fun fact, I had to change it because I started getting messages from young, white teenagers, like on, on LinkedIn and come to find out, we laughed about it. I met the young man, but he had the same initials as me, cause mines used to be N T Outland and he had the same initials.So all his friends were like DMing me and stuff. So it was really cool. We all got to meet. So now is NT Outland MSW. But yes, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find my business on Instagram @preventionmeetsfashion.And we look forward to connecting with folks and following us and being in community. I love being around people.Thank you so much. If there was one thing that you could share with everyone and they would instantly understand it, internalize it and carry it with them for the rest of their lives, what would you want to tell people? What would you want people to know?I think what I will want people to know is something I say all the time and that's, be yourself. There's nothing wrong with being yourself. Society tells us so much that we need to be and act like someone else, but what would it look like if we all just were ourselves? I say that all the time, you know, just be yourself. Personally with me, I always say, I am me and people be like, oh, that's problematic.It's not because I am me. I bring me everywhere. I bring me to corporate meetings. I bring me to community meetings. I bring me to parent teacher meetings. I bring me to the bar. You're getting Nhakia. Like you don't get a different version. You're getting me. And that's easiest for me because I don't have to worry about code-switching or remembering what I said or didn't say here or whatever like that. The only thing you might get as you heard on this call is you might get a different outfit. That's about it. You might get a different hair color or a different look. But other than that I'm just me.I love that. Oh, that's beautiful.Body Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It's your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go. Get full access to Body Liberation for All at daliakinsey.substack.com/subscribe

Angela Ocampo is an intuitive guide, Curandera in training, ancestral wisdom keeper, healer, writer, and old soul. She is devoted to activating, facilitating, and opening portals for others to remember the truths and medicine that lie within us. Through intuitive channeling, energy work, ritual, ancestral healing, Earth medicine, shadow love, and embodiment, Angela works to help others explore and reclaim the forgotten divine parts of the self, including peace, mysticism, ancestral gifts, power, light, and liberation. This episode we exploreSitting with the truth of combined colonized and colonizer ancestryUsing ancestral remembrance to unearth the ancient wisdom that lies within you Using embodied grounding tools Connecting to the body as a source of power Episode Resourceshttps://www.instagram.com/iamangelajo/https://www.subscribepage.com/ancestralconnectionDecolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body LiberationBali Retreat March 19-25 2023I was raised in a super conservative, slightly fundamentalist Christian situation and over the last five years or so, it has brought me so much joy to pursue traditional spiritual practices that are more connected to my ancestry and that aren't directly connected to colonization and the transatlantic slave trade that said there's a lot of resistance in my part of the world anyway, to ancestor veneration or ancestor worship or ancestor remembrance practices. I have found that while ancestor veneration exists all over the world, people's understanding of it really varies from culture to culture and from person to person, quite frankly, whether or not people actually believe their ancestors can hear them and are directly responding to them, whether people see their ancestors as intermediaries between people who are living and actual deities, or whether people think it's just something that you do that is deeply embedded in the culture and that it is good for you psychologically to remember the people that came before you, but no one can actually hear you. So it certainly varies, but I personally I've gotten so much comfort and joy from exploring ancestor veneration that I'm thrilled to have Angela Ocampo with us today who's going to introduce us to ancestor remembrance practices. Angela is coming to us from an indigenous Colombian perspective. And she is going to share with us, her understanding ofancestor remembrancee practices. The value that it’s had in her life and the healing potential that it has. Angela is an intuitive and uses embodiment work and dancing to reconnect people to their own intuition and to their own truth. A lot of times when you feel like you don't know which way to go in life and what's up and what's down. The truth is you do know, but you no longer are feeling confident in acknowledging what you know intuitively and you're seeking ways to validate or prove your opinions rather than just feeling them and going with them. So one of Angela's gifts is helping people get around that feeling of stuckness. So this is an excellent episode. Near the latter portion of the episode, Angela even shares a short meditation with us. So when you get to that section, you're going to want to make sure you're not driving. And that you're in a position where it's going to be safe to get a little relaxed and comfortable. And even though the meditation is brief, don't worry Angela's website is up now and you can visit https://www.angelaocampo.com/ and get a longer version of that meditation. I also have a pretty exciting announcement. I will be hosting my first ever in-person retreat in Bali next March. So that'll be spring break for a lot of people. So hopefully you have that time off and you'll be able to join us as well. There are a lot of exciting excursions planned its going to be focused on teaching you to relax your nervous system and to recover more quickly from any of the stressors you might encounter at home or at work. And for you to really develop recovery practices so that while you're feeling totally relapsed, Totally calm, totally at home in your body, on the trip. You don't have to worry that when you go back home when you fight your way through the airport, you'll completely lose all of that peace. No, you'll be going home with recovery practices. So you can keep returning to that sense of calm so that your nervous system. can stay in the zone that it's meant to be in. We're not meant to constantly be keyed up, stressed out, clenching your teeth, waiting for the other shoe to drop. So it's going to be a wonderful week. It is very far away if you live on the east coast of the us, but I know it's going to be so beautiful and so refreshing. There'll be more details to come. But if you are super excited about the idea of actually hanging out in a wellness space, that's centered on people of color and queer folks and you want to go ahead and check it out and put your deposit in, just visit https://www.daliakinsey.com/retreat, and you'll see the details there. Al right. Let's get on into today's episode. Body Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.Dalia: Hi, Angela. Thank you so much for coming on.Angela: Hi, thank you so much for having me.Dalia: When I got your email, I signed up for it and listened to the meditation for connecting to your ancestors. I immediately thought people needed to know about this and needed to hear about the work that you're doing.Dalia: Let's start with, what are your marginalized identities and what does connecting to your ancestors mean for you?Angela: Yeah. So I am, a cisgender woman. I'm heterosexual as well. I come from Columbia, I'm a woman of color. I also have indigenous ancestry. So for me, it has been kind of like a rediscovery journey to meet with my ancestors and connect with them. Because my indigenous ancestry was colonized, a lot of their culture was taken away from them.Angela: And so a lot of the things weren't passed down to, to my family, to my lineage. So I think there was always a disconnect for me where I felt called, you know, to be on the earth and be outside. But I, I just didn't know why. And maybe like a little bit of stories from my family was passed down, but I, I just always felt called.Angela: So when I found ancestral work, I just felt into my body. This is what I need. As, as someone who, you know, was on a spiritual journey anyway, I was always somewhat of a seeker I always wanna find out the truth and just go deep.Angela: So ancestral healing has, has been able to connect me again with like my roots and where I come from. And it creates this sense of belonging. And it creates a sense of just peace in a way, because you are You are discovering who, who you really are, what is your blood?Angela: And you're creating these pathways of remembrance. And that will not only help you, but it's gonna help the generations that come after you.Dalia: Now that's fascinating because almost all of us are descendants of people who were colonized. When you look at how much of the planet was colonized it is mind boggling.Dalia: As their children, we are both descendants of the colonized and the colonizer.Dalia: Did you feel any sort of conflict around that when you connect to your ancestors, do you feel like you belong to them, but you don't feel called to connect to colonizer ancestors?Angela: Yeah. That is a duality that I have been facing. Right. It's it's a confronting duality. And I think I pushed it away for so long. I only wanted to see, yeah, yeah I have indigenous blood, but then that was like the other side, like I needed to face it because that is part of me.Angela: And so I do feel like before I felt more resistance to it and I feel that for, for some reason I have a really strong connection to my indigenous ancestry more it's probably because the stories that I know are mostly from that side of the family. And I feel that the more that I connect with that side I'm opening up the pathway of connecting to that other side, who is the colonizer.Angela: And I feel there's a sense of kind of like reclamation. And I do feel It's kind of confronting because the colonizer had, you know, they didn't have great intentions, you know, there was violence and there was just a lot of harmful things to, to our colonized ancestors.Angela: So I think approaching it in a way where it's it's intentionally saying to, to the energies, like, I wanna connect with the ancestors who have divine intentions and that in a way already sets like the boundaries and knowing that, you know, when people cross over, they. They tend to, you know, like it's, it's a clearing, right?Angela: That they have like kind of like the karma falls down and, and they, they could become pure, but at the same time, some people don't like some, some, some souls, you know, get stuck or so I feel that it's important, even when. When I do get to that point about my social remembrance journey to connect with the colonizer side, to know that I have protection over my own energy.Angela: I have protection of what I live in and I can choose to connect to the good side of them because I like to believe that there was some good in them regardless, and, you know, they did horrible things, but they're still part of me. So I have to like come to terms with that as well.Dalia: I like that framing and that you can set a boundary for what type of energy you want to draw in and which ancestors you want to hear from.Angela: I think that that's helpful to know too, because I think ancestral healing is sometimes it, it can be scary for people because of the fact that a lot of us have ancestors who weren't, you know, the most pure people on the earth, right? Like they, they probably did a lot of harmful things and and so it can, it can bring up a lot.Angela: And that's why I'm also a huge advocate while doing ancestral healing work to have some sort of tools that ground you and that will help, you know, clear any energy that is moving through you because a lot of it can be confronting, especially if you're just new to it. And so that's like, tools basically like dancing I love dancing and it connects me to my ancestors as well.Angela: And so anything that, that allows you to release anything that may come up. I believe our bodies hold so much wisdom and our bodies have our ancestors' blood. So I really love working with the body to, to come to a neutralized point of when you're doing that ancestral work, cuz a lot can come up for sure.Dalia: Would you say that the greatest tool that you have for connecting to your ancestors is your own body?Angela: I actually, I do believe that because I like to believe that I'm very in tune with my body and I think everyone can get there. I think society kind of programs us into thinking like, oh, we're so disconnected or our intuition is, is wrong.Angela: But really like, as, as if you're being, when you came to this earth, like you. As a baby, like you, you knew what your body needed and that's why you like cried and you were hungry. Ever since we come out out of the womb, like we are very in tune with our bodies and it's just that programming and conditioning that disconnects us.Angela: The oppressor wants us to be disconnected from our bodies because that is how we lose our power. So I believe getting into our bodies and using it as a tool for ancestor work is a way that we take our power back. And I feel that also meditation, like going through deep meditations allows me to use my body to kind of just like spark that, that like connection.Angela: Like I mentioned, it brings, it has so much wisdom sometimes. I like I'm in, I'm in nature or like, I listen to a song and like, I feel it, and my body, like this deep, like a tingling sensation. It's, it's not something that my mind can really like give a meaning to, but it's like my body knows first.Angela: Right. I feel too that because our soul is, is connected to our body. It it's like holding our body. The body is one of the, the greatest allies, because it speaks directly. Like it doesn't allow the mind, the mind that allows, that sometimes tells us that we're overthinking it, or, you know, it puts like doubts in our head.Angela: I think the body comes from a place of pureness.Dalia: Hmm. I love that framing because my first thought was, well, how do you know that you can connect to your ancestors? So my first reaction was how do we process this intellectually? How do we know that we can even do this? And that ancestral work is something that we can all access. Because when you don't have access to a lot of the traditions that your ancestors practiced.Dalia: I know, sometimes you feel anxiety around, like, am I doing this correctly? Can I recreate traditions that are lost? But what is your take on that? I would imagine that if the body is the guide, then there are many ways, even if you don't have any way to know the exact traditions that were used, that there are many ways to tap into this power.Angela: Correct. Yeah. I, I believe our intuition is our biggest guide. And the body, like the body, what it feels the sensations. So for anyone that doesn't have access to, you know, who your ancestors were, I say, the first thing is like, what do you feel inclined to? That is the first thing that you wanna attempt into. A lot of us have, we love things that don't have.Angela: Maybe we just don't realize like why we love what that certain thing, but we just do. So like tapping into that because we we hold so much wisdom that we might not be conscious of, but sometimes we're just drawn to things. So I would say for those people that don't have accesses to really lean into what you're drawn to, what calls your attention and really experiment, right?Angela: If, if you know, for example, if you know, you, you have ancestry from Africa, start listening to some African music. What are you called to, there's just so much music that you, that you can tap into and there's different kinds. So like start tapping into that. Maybe seek out some recipes and start seeing like what you really love, what you don't really like.Angela: And, and maybe like seeing maybe if you really love a dish or a certain song, like start researching the roots, where does it come from? Who are the artists that created it? So I think we can really use our intuition to see what we're naturally drawn to, because again, our ancestors are in our blood they're even if we're not conscious of it, they're guiding us and they're speaking through us.Angela: Even if it seems like we're, we're not, we're not in communication with them. They're always trying to, to tap in. So that's what I would recommend to start like diving in for sure.Dalia: I love that- so approachable. When you say the ancestors always speaking through us and guiding us, does that communication go in both directions?Dalia: Do you think it matters how you live your life as far as resolving previous hurts that maybe your ancestors weren't able to resolve in their lifetime?Angela: Yeah. So yes, I think it is, it is both ways. I actually believe in calling them in intentionally and that is how I started on my journey I did a meditation that kind of like opened up the portal for me.Angela: And from there, I just started to call them in and speak to them, pray to them. It's like another relationship, it has to be nourished. It takes some work to, to, to let them in, like you have free will as a human. So they're not going to just be like, Hey, you know, and barge in on you.Angela: You have to open up that door and you have to open up the lines of communication. If you wanna have consciously a relationship with them. And so in terms of like healing, the wounding, I think it's, it's gonna be definitely a journey and it's not gonna happen overnight.Angela: I think it's, it's something that if you feel called to ancestral work, this is definitely like you were chosen by your ancestors because they're. There are things and, and resources that they didn't have in order to heal. And now, as a, as a generation that has a ton of resources, you know, we have resources to therapy to just reeducation.Angela: I feel Google is just a resource on its own. We're also coming into this time of, of awakening just as a society, as a collective and as a wanting to also liberation, especially for BIPOC people. And so I think. That's why so many people have been wanting to connect with the ancestors because they know that they will give them the strength and the wisdom and the guidance that they need to heal those woundings that have permeated so much of their familial lineage. I think that's why we crave that connection, because again, it gives us a sense of belonging. It gives us a sense of strength and a wisdom that, that maybe, you know, if, if you're just starting your spiritual journey or like your reclamation journey maybe you haven't found it anywhere else.Angela: And I feel like ancestors give you just. Very grounded and, you know, they come from the earth, right? So they give you a very grounded wisdom and strength. And so I really believe yeah, that, that they support you on healing, that those booming, and we can definitely call them in and call their energy in it simply starts by opening yourself up to that, to that relationship.Dalia: Have you learned any of the names of your ancestors? Did you do a combination of trying to call them in and accessing information you could find about them?Angela: Yeah, so I actually have a spirit guide. Spirit guides for me are just a team of souls of spiritual souls that, that protect me and support me.Angela: And so we all have this, we all have a team. And so sometimes we have ancestors who are also our spirit guides. So I have one her name is Esmeralda and she is my ancestor from a very long time ago. So from the indigenous lineage and I met her through going through a meditation and wanting to meet other people in my spirit team.Angela: I had already met a few of them, but I knew I had a feeling that there was an, a sister there and I really wanted to tap into her energy. So, so that's how I met her. And other than that I've been doing also research. I actually just found out where my grandma from my mom's side was born was the land that she was born on.Angela: And she's the one that carries that, that indigenous blood. And so I was doing some research on the plants or just like anything, anything that I could find to connect me. So I'm actively trying to find more names. Sometimes I do get like, when I'm doing deep meditations or just like breathwork, breathwork is really great too in taking you really deep.Angela: Sometimes I don't even go intentionally trying to meet with my ancestors. They just find a way to, to enter because I have this open portal for them and they're welcome to come into my energy. So, so I have encounters with them like that.Angela: And I've, I've been able to get some, I can't remember now the exact name, but I, they do have very tribal indigenous names. And so it's been really healing and just also very empowering and, and beautiful to, to have those experiences with them and, and kind of like see a part of myself reflected in them.Dalia: So that brings up a couple of questions for me. I had wondered how do you get into that deeper meditative state? When you say breath work, what does that mean?Angela: Yeah, so breathwork is is just, it's another modality. There are breathwork practitioners. So it's it's I do it like that. Breathwork where you're taking three breaths. So you take the first breath taking an air from your belly, then your chest, and out through your mouth. And it takes you into a very meditative state.Angela: You just kind of get out of your head. And so these processes are usually around 30 to an hour. And so. There are breathwork tracks online that you can try. I found some on YouTube and I also have friends who are breathwork practitioners who, who use this service as a healing modality. So I recommend that because it's really powerful and using our breath to really get into our bodies and get out of our heads. And it's also a very healing modality for also any trauma that you have experienced. So I really I'm a fan of breath work and in terms of another modality that I really love any deep meditation. I find them on YouTube.Angela: For people that are maybe just starting out, maybe a guided meditation would be the best way to just, you know, maybe not, not one with a lot of words or just something to get you in the deep like relaxed state. And I think before you go to bed is like one of the best things, maybe like creating like a little nighttime routine. Yeah, maybe sitting at the edge of your bed before going to sleep. I think the nighttime is like a really good time to, to take advantage of just like your body is already getting into a meditative state because sleep is a meditative state.Angela: And even saying like a prayer. Call in your ancestors before you go to sleep and invite them into your dreams. Cause they can come into your dreams and kind of just do the work for you. You don't really have to do a meditation. Those are three ways that I would recommend to, to go into a deep meditative state.Dalia: When you're looking online for meditations how can you tell the difference between one that will take you deeper and maybe something that's more superficial, or what is the opposite of a deep meditation?Angela: Yeah, I personally don't like the ones that are short, the ones that are just like five to 10 min 10 minutes, because I feel like I need more time to, to really dive in.Angela: So the, the longer ones that have they usually have the music like singing bowls . So I think those, so I would look for ones that are around.Angela: I would say at least 25 minutes. Because that really allows you to give your mind time, to really soak, soak it and, and, and sit into that meditation. And so that's what I look for. And I look for ones that. I don't have so much of words, so many. I, I like to kind of go on my own and I like to create my own imagery in my head.Angela: But if people do like the guided ones, if that works better for you, then, then that's something that you can do. Just anything that maybe takes you into a relaxed day that creates some peace would be helpful.Dalia: Can you describe your concept of the afterlife? when you are calling the ancestors, what do you imagine they're doing? Are they not going to move on to some other place or some other thing? Where are they?Angela: Yeah. So that's a really great question. So I think when people move on into the afterlife, they become an infinite kind of energy. So they can really be everywhere at once. So I believe that they, they come into the energy that when they are invited into the energy. Once I really started to, okay, I'm going through a spiritual awakening and I'm really gonna dedicate myself to it.Angela: And once I made that decision, that's when. All the ancestral healing just like, started to, like, I started seeing it's just coming everywhere. And so it was signs, right? I think as soon as I opened myself up to they started to enter my energy space.Angela: When I call them in, because I know that they can be everywhere at once. They're just kind of like there, but when they, when I call on them I can feel them. Because I am so tuned into that. That's how I view what happens to a soul after and afterlife.Angela: It's about that opening being open to, to know that their energy is infinite. Hmm.Dalia: Now the people that are around you or the spirits that are around you that are a team that guide you, are they all blood relatives or can you have no children while you're here and end up as an ancestor.Angela: For me, it's it's mostly my family, but I, I tend to connect mostly with my. The ancestors that lived a very long time ago. So the indigenous ancestors I can connect with with the people that let's say my grandma from one generation ago, but I, I feel that. The I'm for some reason, I feel very connected to the indigenous part and that's probably cuz something in me wants to be activated through that.Angela: My work usually involves the family, like the, the blood relatives, but I have heard other. Other people that do ancestral work and ancestral remembrance that also consider the people that steward their land like ancestors or just people that were close to the family. So it doesn't necessarily have to be blood relatives.Angela: I do know other people that are considered ancestors that are exactly related to blood. So I think it's really anyone that you, that you, that you or your family, or just anything that, that was surrounding that you felt very connected to. I think a big thing is also like the ancestors of the land.Angela: I would definitely consider, you know, the people that steward the land that I stand on as ancestors, because they took care of our land and they, we have this place to live because of them.Angela: And so I think it's like an emotional connection there. I think ancestors don't have to be necessarily blood it just needs to have a connection. Like what connection do you have there with them?Dalia: You mentioned that you do readings for people. Can you describe your gifts to us more and how you use them to help other people and to guide you in how you live your life?Angela: Yeah, so I connect with the energies around you. So I can connect to your spirit guides. I can connect to your ancestor lineage or through mediumship or an a past ancestor. I can also connect to your highest self, your soul. I use this as a way to kind of gain clarity for people so people come to me when they're not sure, they're kind of like a little bit in their heads and, and they feel kind of disconnected, they're not sure if they're the right path or how to really embody more of their soul.Angela: I use my gifts to tap into their spiritual team and to give them the guidance right from a pure place, from a place that knows them all and, and supports them in everything. A lot of the time the, the spirits are funny because, or just like the spiritual realm, because they tend to like lead you back to yourself.Angela: It's kind of like, you know the answer and you have the answers inside of you, but they do try to, you know, give you the, the clarity and the direction that you need to find a way. So I feel like the, that journey, they always seem to have this saying where it's kind of like you are right here right now for purpose and this obstacle, this challenge that you're going through right now it's taking you to where you need to go. It's kind of like the journey is needed here so you can get to your highest self , to your true self and to your most pure self, to your most whole self.Angela: So that is what I do in my readings. I go with the intention of the client, what they need if they're going through a transition or if they really wanna reconnect with, you know, their lineage. So we go in there and we get as much information as we can to really give them that clarity and also the comfort in knowing that they are supported.Angela: And they're actually a pure being that has so much guidance available to them.Dalia: That sounds incredible. I know today you came prepared to offer us a little entry point into a meditation or having an ancestral remembrance practice. Can you introduce us to that?Angela: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Okay. So. Let's dive right in.Angela: So if you can I invite you to close your eyes. If you can't close your eyes, just simply focus on a certain spot around you. And I want you to invite you to go ahead and take three deep breaths.Angela: And when you exhale, I want you to make a sigh or make an audible sound.Angela: Alright now, I'm gonna invite you to go ahead and just move your body the way that it wants to just give yourself a little wiggle. Maybe you have some tight spots. Maybe you've just been sitting after a long day. Just give yourself some movement so we can really get into the body and allow spirit to move through us.Angela: When you're ready, I want you to go ahead and just place your hands, wherever it feels right. So maybe, maybe on your heart, maybe on your stomach, maybe on your legs, whatever makes you feel most comfortable. And I want you to go ahead and imagine a white light coming in from the crown of your head all the way down to your toes.Angela: So you're gonna imagine it slowly cleansing your entire body. So going through your throat, going through your heart, through your stomach, through your legs, and exiting out through your toes.Angela: And from here, I want you to imagine a yellow golden light right in the middle of your eyebrows. And this is where your third eye lies, this is where your intuition lies, and you're gonna notice this light just permeating your entire forehead, then you're gonna see it extend out into your body. And now to the surroundings, and you are gonna see it extend out as far as you can imagine out into the earth.Angela: And as you see it connect to the earth, you're going to thank the earth just internally for her healing presence for supporting you and supporting your lineage and activating this connection that we're about to embark on.Angela: And now that the earth has reflected this beautiful energy back into your aura. You're gonna see this light coming back into your surroundings, coming back into your body, coming back into your aura, and coming back into your third eye.Angela: And now I'm gonna invite you to do a prayer, to call in your ancestors. So you can repeat this prayer internally or externally. Do whatever feels right. Whatever feels right is perfect. So we're gonna go ahead and say, I invite in my ancestors right now. I call in their presence. I call in their guidance. I call in their strength.Angela: I call in their wisdom.Angela: I invite the ancestors with divine intention to make contact with me in the way that they know they can. I open up myself to receive their wisdom and their guidance and any moment that is available to me.Angela: I trust that I am supported and guided by my ancestors, who long to make connection with me. And I open myself up to receive their magic.Angela: And just let that permeate every inch of your being.Angela: And now I invite you to simply say, thank you. Thank you for this moment. Thank you to your ancestors for bringing you here. In this moment for giving you what you have for giving you the wisdom and the strength to make it to where you are today.Angela: And now from here, you can trust that this relationship with your ancestors is officially opened. As you have opened up your heart to them and to receive their guidance.Angela: Alright. So we're gonna just go ahead and quickly close by taking another, just three deep breaths. And remember to just make a sound to just let out any energy that might have moved through when you exhale.Angela: Alright. When you're ready, just go ahead and open your eyes and come back into the space.Dalia: Thank you so much for that.Angela: You're welcome.Dalia: You mentioned you're welcomed that dancing could be a way to ground yourself. Can you give us a couple of other things that can ground you?Angela: Yes. So I do have some tools in my toolbox, so I really love just simply breathing. Like we just did the breathing, filling up your belly and bringing it up to your chest and, and exhaling with a sound has been so grounding for me, especially because I noticed that throughout the day my breath is very shallow.Angela: And so really taking the moment to just let the breath fill my body up with life is one, one beautiful way to ground yourself. And especially if you find yourself in triggering moments breath bringing your attention back into the breath is, is really grounding. Another thing for me, I, I also recommend music, music, especially something that, that is tied to your ancestral lineage.Angela: So anything that, that kind of just reminds you of home is, is something that I love to. To just, you know, put everything away and just kind of like sit in my bed and listen to music. I feel so grounded in that as well as nature. Nature is a natural resource. If you don't live in the city, you can just go outside and just be like on the grass. Taking off your shoes and putting your your feet on the earth is, is incredibly healing because you're taking in that the Earth's frequency. So those are like my few favorite ways. I also obviously like meditation as well, and just sitting in silence and noticing, you know, I think people have the misconception that meditation is about clearing your mind. I really just like to, to use it as a way for self self-awareness when I'm just doing meditations by myself. because it just allows me to drop in. Okay. Like what's in my head right now.Angela: How can I bring myself back to center? And it just kind of creates this again, this relationship with myself. So those are like a few of my tools to get grounded.Dalia: that is so helpful. Where can people find you if they'd like to learn more or wanna know how to work with you? Yeah, so I hang out a lot on Instagram.Angela: My Instagram handle is @iamangelajo. It stands for my middle name. And then I am working on my website. I don't ha I don't have website currently, but on Instagram you can find any links and, and you can find out how to work me, work with me there.Dalia: Perfect. Thank you so much. Angela: Thank you so much for having me.I hope you enjoyed that and that you will take out the time to connect with Angela's work. If you are still on Instagram, check her out there, or you can just jump on her mailing list, visit her site and grab that meditation. I loved the invitation to the ancestors to connect and that she included that prayer for us really resonated to me and felt really helpful. You would think when it comes to spiritual things, we wouldn't be worried about doing things the right way all the time or thinking that things need to be prescribed. But a lot of the religious traditions that we have grown up with are very prescribed and they don't feel accessible. And there was generally another person there to tell you precisely how things should go or someone who serves as an intermediary. So it is a little bit of a reach sometimes when you start exploring spiritual practices that are more independent. And that actually allow you more freedom. Sometimes you get freedom at you don't know exactly what to do with it. So I really appreciate that she modeled that for us. And that she offered such a simple entry point to starting to explore ancestor remembrance practices. If that's something we feel called to do. Remember if you haven't already picked up your copy of Decolonizing Wellness it is now available all over the place. The book is full of helpful exercises that you can do to feel more present in your body to feel more connected to your intuition and to your whole self, instead of just little parts of ourselves that have been deemed worthy or acceptable by the world around us. If you are listening to this episode on a podcast player, and you're not listening to on Substack. I highly encourage you to follow the show on https://daliakinsey.substack.com/ because, in addition to getting this episode every month, there is a blog post on the 15th of every month. And for people who are supporting members of the show, there's also a bonus. As always, thank you so much for being here. I'll see you next time. 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Are you a leader of color who wants to lead and empower in revolutionary ways? Then you need Gieselle Allen...Gieselle works with revolutionary leaders of color to support them in expanding their businesses, team, and leadership, while also ensuring their needs are met in the process. In her mindset-first approach, she combines mindset, trauma healing and intuition to help her clients create and expand their businesses and revolutionary leadership practices. If discovering the confidence that comes with: decolonizing your thoughts, owning your identity, and building a thriving life that reflects your values and resonates with your core sounds like a vibe, you don’t want to miss this conversation. This episode we explore What having a revolutionary business entailsThe role that safety plays in learning and healingGetting comfortable with having more than enough Overcoming fear to answer a call to liberatory work Episode Resourceshttps://www.instagram.com/gieselleallen/https://gieselleallen.com/Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body LiberationHello and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I am so excited about today's guest. If you are a leader of color who wants to lead and empower in revolutionary ways you need Gieselle Allen, I was in Gieselle’s coaching program now almost a year plus ago. And the changes that I experienced in the program were enough to sell me on it, but the way it served as a catalyst for growth throughout 2020 was just beyond amazing. Gieselle works with revolutionary leaders of color to support them in expanding their businesses, their teams, and their leadership while making sure all of their needs are met in the process. And this is something that unfortunately, a lot of us have never had the opportunity to experience.So, the ways in which your socialization has affected the way you approach business, the way you approach speaking up, the way you approach really leaning into your identities and feeling safe is something that a lot of us haven't visited before.Having a coach that will specifically address the ways in which your socialization as a person of color has set up barriers that you can step around and circumvent, once you're aware of them its absolutely life changing because this is not the type of instruction or care we're used to.Sometimes it's hard to even know how much of a difference it would make to have somebody tailor an educational program, a coaching program specifically to you and to address the challenges the other people for so long have been pretending don't even exist.I love this conversation with Gieselle. Let's jump right inBody Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.Dalia: I am so excited to have you here.Gieselle: I'm really excited to be here. I'm thrilled. I've been like, I was, I've been like eyeing your podcast for forever. And I was like, when am I, when am I gonna be on this podcast? Like a baby. So, I'm really glad it's working out and that we're here.Dalia: This is awesome.Dalia: I'm glad you asked because as you know, for people who haven't already listened to the episode that I was on with someone else who was in the same coaching group as me, when I worked with you, Gieselle basically is out here changing lives and liberating people in ways that you don't even see it coming.Dalia: So, you think you're just stuck in your business and really, that's not the problem. The problem is mindset, and how we've been socialized is behind it. But I'd gotten a ton of coaching from containers that weren't made for me.  and they really didn't get to the root of my problem. So maybe they got to the root of like Becky's issue and like, oh, why don't I feel comfortable?Dalia: Cuz my Lululemon’s are too tight or whatever, and worked on her visibility problems, but didn't get to me being socialized to not take up space don't challenge authority, and don't you dare do anything culturally distinct because we will. Beat you for it, we'll punish you for it. So being in your container was life changing.Dalia: And Sarah came on the show and discussed how much the changes ripple out as time goes by. But even though I feel like I've grown so much since the container, I still would've thought Gieselle doesn't wanna be on my podcast. like Gieselle's too big, and too busy, doesn't have time.Gieselle: Well, you know, what's funny is I feel like I'm just moving into a season where I have the capacity to like be out and, in the world, and on people's podcasts there, it's not about me being too big.Gieselle: I'm still really small and like the grand scheme, I'm small, I'm intimate. I'm exclusive.Dalia: I love that. Take on it. Yes.Gieselle: Yeah. I'm exclusive. I, and I wanna be exclusive, like, that's my whole thing. I'm the kind of person where like when white folks follow me on Instagram, I delete 'em and like, I'm not gonna respond to your you' like random comment on my stuff.Gieselle: Like, I'm not gonna engage with you if you're white, like I'm very much like I'm for I'm for who I'm for. And if it's not you then like, I'm cool with it. There's enough people in the world. And I don't need that many to be in my community.Dalia: Wow. I mean, even that, how, what had to change for you to be able to get to a point that it feels safe to say that and that you don't feel compelled to explain this doesn't mean I don't like white people. It means my business is not for white people.Gieselle: Yeah. That's a really great question. What had to change? I think what had to change is that scarcity that we've all been sold and the devaluing of folks of color that we've all been sold. Right. Where people, you know, I remember when I was gonna make this change and like a big thing I was scared of and a big thing that like, people still, mostly just my dad at this point, but like people still say to me is like, oh, like how much more money could you make if you are working with white folks?Like we're missing out on those white dollars?Dalia: Those spend better apparentlyGieselle: Apparently, but here's the truth about like, you know, focusing exclusively on BIPOC folks in business and in anything is that BIPOC folks and I know this because I used to work in TV back in the day. And so like, I understand how, I understand all the things we are, the most loyal people ever.We support our people like tirelessly, especially Black folks. Like it's like what, you're a Black person, you're doing a thing I'm gonna, I'm gonna work with you. You know? And so, recognizing that, recognizing how loyal we are recognizing that we are the people of global majority in this world, there are more than enough of us was really huge for me.But I think, I think the thing that it really took for me transparently was recognizing that I'm enough and that like, I was the right kind of Black person to do this work because that was honestly my biggest hurdle. And I think that's the biggest hurdle for a lot of us in being in communities of color, is that we've, we ex exclude we've like inherited these toxic traits in our communities that make us, that make us exclude each other.Gieselle: And we've systemically been ripped from each other through the prison system, slavery, we can even talk about like immigration and the American dream. Like we've been ripped apart from our communities and culture. And so, it doesn't feel, we don't feel like we fit in with them because we're all kind of this like weird hodgepodge.Gieselle: But recognizing long story short that I was enough and that my experience was enough, and that people resonated with it that's really what made the big change for me.Dalia: That is something that I think is a uniquely Black American experience and I could be wrong, but I really haven't heard that message from other folks of color because they did not necessarily experience as much of the deliberate breakdown of community because it's been targeted.Dalia: It's been targeted and not just during the transatlantic slave trade, but it's also been targeted in more recent history, the deliberate creating of more divisions in the Black community. Yeah. So, we don't even recognize each other sometimes. And we can't seem to be cohesive or find common ground even because I've even lately been watching a TikTok’s where there's this running trend where people are explaining when white folks misunderstand them, they take something literally that's from like African American vernacular English, but I know a fraction of them.Dalia: And in the past that would've made me feel, oh, this is more proof, I'm not Black enough. I'm not the right kind of Black. Yeah. And because I'm in a multi, well was from a multiethnic household, even though both of my parents are very Black and very into their Blackness, their Blackness was in no way, similarDalia: And so, we came out a hodgepodge of their two cultures. And so, I may know random Caribbean expressions that no one's ever heard. And I think, oh, everybody says that. And then not understand. I only learned, oh, you really put your foot in it like two years ago. And I've slowly been using it. And seeing if people can tell, like, I'm waiting to see if I did it right.Dalia: But it really is a thing when you feel like. especially in public school, I was told, again and again, that I wasn't talking Black enough. Yep. Totally. And that, because I like to go to the library and inline skate that I was enjoying activities that weren't Black enough.Gieselle:  and I, I, I completely had that experience growing up.Gieselle: One thing I wanna name for the like non-Black POCs that are listening, just to honor them, is that this experience definitely isn't unique to us as Black folks. Like I've seen this so many times in Latin culture, my husband is from Ecuador, but he's white. And so, there's like this strange, but like, it's like whenever he goes to Latin events, he's always like, it's just this big, like contest of, do you speak Spanish?Gieselle: Do you speak Spanish well enough? Do you have an accent with your Spanish? Like how long did you live in whatever country you were from? Oh, you're you were born in America. Like there's all this thing. Asian folks have the same thing. South Asian folks. So, I was like, it's, it's all of us in different ways.Gieselle: The systems that ripped us apart are completely different though, you know?Dalia: Yeah. That makes me really sad because I wanted to believe that other people -somebody's, you know, feeling a sense of belonging in this country that won't allow them to experience a sense of belonging. I was hoping that somebody was out there saying I know exactly who I am and where I fit in. And, but yeah, I definitely have seen that with like how much do you speak the language, and do you have an accent?Gieselle: And how much like how much from your culture do you practice in your daily life? I think that comes up a lot in like non-Black spaces. Cause I think like Black culture, at least as a Black American, like our culture is just. It's pervasive. It's in there. Like you practice it. It's also what creates all other culture in America. Dalia: Absolutely.Gieselle: But yeah, there's so many elements to do I belong as a person of color. Do I belong in this space? Am I enough? And then like, don't even like, then we, we can't even bring like the intersection of like queerness into it. Right. Cause it's like, yeah, well I'm like Blackity, Black, Black, but I'm queer.And that does not roll either in a lot of families and not a lot of places.Dalia: It feels like in the whole country, like not at all. I already had issues with the transphobia and the homophobia and the Black community being another one of the things that would sometimes feel like a reason why I'm not Black enough or the right kind of Black, the Black that people are looking for.And then when I won't even dignify this man by saying his name, but things that happen in the news cycle, remind me of how pervasive it is. Even when I've started to really make an effort to curate my bubble, I'll find that people who say they accept my queerness and accept me and they have queer family will, when someone, you know, is being super transphobic and saying that somehow Black issues, trans issues are two separate things forgetting that there are plenty of people living at both intersections.Dalia: And then they'll explain how well I do kind of think, you know, it's tearing down the community or I think people really are choosing, and they're just seeing it too much and it's exposing them. And these are people that I vetted already. So, they said the right things, but then when they get triggered by something that really is part of the Black American cultural experience then they go back to what they were trained to believe their entire childhood, that queerness is deviant. And it's a tool that the man is using to tear us all down.  and that you're not born this way and you can somehow suppress it and you're better than everyone else.Dalia: If you're straight, basically and you're even better than, you're better than everybody if you're a straight cis Black man and everyone else's needs need to rank below that. And if you do anything to even challenge the authority of a straight Black man, well, of course you got hit of course you maybe got murdered because you're not allowed, and even though no one's gonna say out loud, well, they deserve to be murdered. The messaging is to stop questioning straight Black men.Gieselle:  and this is, this is, this is like so many layers to what you just said. But I wanna name, like, especially when we're talking about these people that you vetted and that you're like, I like did all the things I was supposed to do, and you're still showing this like deep transphobia and queerphobia.Gieselle: Right. This is why it's so important for spaces where like, it's just folks who share our marginalized identities, whether it's spaces for BIPOC folks, whether it's spaces for queer BIPOC folks for trans BIPOC folks. Right. That's so important because. That that's why like, even in the most well-meaning of spaces that s**t goes down because people are deeply committed to upholding their privileges, you know, and especially, I mean, I love us as BIPOC folks, but I feel like BIPOC folks are really, but, you know, I will say it's not just BIPOC folks.Gieselle: Cause this is like white women are the pinnacle of this, where it's like, you hold one marginalized identity and you hold onto that with everything you've got and you refuse to acknowledge like, hey, I've got all these other privileges. So, I wanted to name that piece. There was something else that was coming up for me, but I can't even remember.Gieselle: So, I'm just gonna let it go. It wasn't that important.Dalia: that, that is really important to point out. I think, cuz I think when people have a hard time understanding why you would just delete a white person when they follow you, is that because people's brainwash is so deeply ingrained you may intend to be a safe space, but you can't promise that to anybody.Dalia: And even you can't, when you are holding the same identity, someone else, you may bring your toxic internalized s**t to the table. Yep. But it's so much easier to work on that when that's the intention or you've set the tone for the space and I really appreciate you putting in the work to keep the container safe, which I find a lot of people, they have all these good intentions for inclusion, but they.Dalia: Either don't have the capacity, the understanding or the desire to keep the container safe. It's not safe to challenge people when it's unsafe and they don't put anything in place to make it less scary or traumatic for you to express a concern. It's like, there was no thought that went into things are going to go sideways because this is what happens when you get more than one person in a room.Gieselle: well, and this is something that we talked about. We recently talked about a lot in Revolutionary Rising, which is my program for BIPOC folks. Because like community, we had this moment where a lot of people were joining for community specifically. Like I think when you joined the program and most of y'all joined to work with me, and we had a moment where everyone was joining for community, but when, but like the problem with that, not the problem, but like the challenge with that is that as BIPOC folks, like we've talked about, we've been ripped from, we've been ripped from community.Gieselle: We've all been othered within our communities, unless we fit the very narrow stereotype of what we are supposed to be. And what is the right kind of Black person, Asian person, south Asian person, Latina person. Right. And so, we come into these spaces and even though it's like, okay, I wanted this community.Gieselle: I wanna believe that these BIPOC folks have me. I'm completely shut down. I'm completely triggered and I'm actually completely unable to be here. And so, something that we are in conversation around in the community is difficulty and how like, that's, it's the thing that I feel like we all are trained to avoid in community, but it's actually the thing that brings us together and really creates community is knowing that, like you said, I can show up, I can say this s**t isn’t working for me.Gieselle: That was fucked up, like all of the things and knowing that someone's gonna hold that and see it and say, okay, let's, let's make this right for you. But it's hard. It's really, really hard, especially when none of us like. Literally, none of us on this earth, I think, or very few people on this earth really know and know how to do community and have a wide capacity to do community in the way that it was intentionally meant to be.Dalia: And then it makes me wonder too, are some of our concepts of scaling and like how a business must grow incompatible with community. Because I wondered, I noticed and some other people noticed too, the bigger the group got, the less people were engaging. And I didn't know if it was because they didn't feel safe anymore because it felt like you're in a room, but people keep coming in.Dalia: And it has nothing to do with who those people are. It's just that they weren't there a few minutes ago. You're just like, whoa, who's that? You know, it's like this natural response or is it that people think once we get to a certain size, well, someone else will comment on it. And I'll just pop in when I need something.Dalia:  Gieselle: I think it's so many things. It's so, so many things, and it's been a big learning and process for us over this past year. Me and Olivia, our lead coach, but what I think it really comes down to is safety. Like, even like in the way you said it, right? It's like, oh, there's a new person. It's like your nervousGieselle: system's like, oh no, who's there? What is this? And I didn't think of that. And the person who taught me this strategy was spoiler alert, white and not creating safe spaces. Right? Like really just creating. I don't know, spaces, you know, for lack of better words. And so, we had to really look at and reevaluate.Gieselle: Okay. How are we bringing people in? Who are we bringing in? And how can we bring new people into this space without it feeling like horrible on folks, nervous system and making it even more difficult for them to step into this space? Because the reality is that even if it was like six people for a year, it would still be a hurdle for most people to show up in that space and feel safe.Gieselle: At least for the first like three to six months, because you just need time to build community. And I think that's one of the hard things, like when you are running a business, when you are building communities do you, you know, something that we've been really thinking about is the word community, and there's so many things you need.Gieselle: And one of the things is, is time is like, do you actually have the time to build the community in the well-intentioned way that you want to? I don't know. So yeah, long story short, we've been really thinking about that for ourselves in scaling and recognizing that. Yeah, it's harder. My, I was just talking to my coach about this yesterday.Gieselle: And I still want to find the way to make it bigger. Not for money's sake, but because I genuinely want there to be a beautiful thriving community of women and femmes of color interacting with each other. Right. And supporting each other and loving up on each other, but we've gotta find the way.Gieselle: And that's just the reality of it is that like, it's gonna be a process to find our way there, but I believe we can get there. And I also have to expand my capacity to hold that as well. Dalia: That makes sense. It's really interesting to see you open, not totally openly, but pretty openly growing even after you've reached a point of success that so many of us are just trying to get to so what has that been like?Dalia: Understanding that it's never over. And what, let you know that you had the wrong people in the container. I know there's like five questions and one. And how did you feel safe enough to say there's enough money out there? There's enough people out there for me to set you free, like, not necessarily fire a client, but like set you free to find a table that's right for you at this point in your life and with your growth.Gieselle: Yeah. So, one thing I will say, like, let's talk about like the firing of folks or not the firing folks, but like, because usually I would say it's mutual. Like it's just, ain't working. And for me as a person, like I, there's no amount of money that's worth working with somebody who's not a fit for the work that I do. Because as a coach specifically, if you don't trust me, if you are not down for the work we're doing, you're not gonna get results. And when you don't get results, it makes me miserable. Because I question if I'm a decent coach, like, or even a good, you know, so for me, it's just not worth it.Gieselle: And it's not fun at the end of the day, nobody starts a business to do, to be miserable. We, none of us did that. And so, I want it to be fun. I want there to be trust. I want there to be love if that can't be there. And that's not, if you're not either ready for it, if you realize it's not gonna happen with me or whatever happens then, like, I, I want you to go eat just as much as just as much as you wanna go.Gieselle: So that's the thing for me. And it's a great question about recognizing that, but I, I do wanna bring in like the abundance piece of it, because I think that's something that a lot of folks struggle with, especially when they're in the earlier stages of business, cuz it doesn't always feel abundant. It does not always feel abundant.Gieselle: And I think the truth is I'm like I'm sitting with this question cause I'm like, when did I get to the point where I knew that.Gieselle: I think it was when I got to a point where. I knew that even if I didn't generate like a billion manillion dollars, that I could strip everything down and do a workshop and still bring in some leads and bring in some folks who were interested in working with me recognizing that it doesn't have to be big.Gieselle: It just has to be a couple people. And that something else is coming. And I think if you're, you know, if we're talking to folks who are even newer where you're like, I'm not even at that stage, like, I, I can't build a workshop. I can't bring in a couple people. Like I'm still before that. What I would tell you is that everything's a building block and that's something that I've learned and that, and that's something that I'm trying to lean into.Gieselle: And so it's like every, no is a building block to a, yes, every silent post is a building block to a post that actually gets like one, like, you know, it's all a building block. And so that's something that I try to look towards as well and believe as well. Alongside the fact that like, we don't have these like, callings because they're not supposed to work. Like, that's just not like the universe, our ancestors, like all the things that give us these callings, they, they are not cruel. And so, it's supposed to work. We've just gotta keep building the blocks and then it will.Dalia: I was going to ask, like, what's the difference between a revolutionary entrepreneur?Dalia:  what else we see out there, but I'm hearing some themes already, cuz you definitely don't hear love, fun, and a calling really emphasized like sometimes you hear people throw out calling like kind of in a cavalier way, but in the container, I really felt like. I, I already knew this intuitively at least for me, maybe it's not true for everybody that your business can be an extension of your spiritual practice.Dalia: And that, that also might be beneficial for someone who is used to the concept of throwing your worries or questioning on your deity or your ancestors. And that sometimes that's the only way you can move forward because you can focus on, well, what can I do? And I'm just gonna trust that the other things will fall into place, which even if you don't believe that you know, that taking action versus doing nothing is gonna get you different results.Dalia: But for you, what are the main differences between the way you believe if you're really called to do something, you should look at business or can look at business versus what's usually taught to us.Gieselle: Yeah. I love what you caught that should cause I was like, well, there's no should but for me, revolutionary businessGieselle: it's all about at, at its like simplest terms, wanting to do things differently. And when I say differently, like wanting to do things in ways that are human, that respect not just your needs as an individual, but the needs of your people. And it's a business that prioritizes people over profits at the end of the day.Gieselle: I actually think that would truly be it in its simplest of forms. But it can look a lot of different ways. So, for example, you know, one thing that I do in my sales process is my sales process is intentionally I've intentionally slowed it down so much because. I wanna know you deeply, and I want you to know me deeply and I wanna feel really, really good when you come into my space.Gieselle: And I want us to both feel, to feel on an alignment. Something that I feel is revolutionary is pricing your offers, not just based on like what you can charge people, but what you need and letting there be a limit. A lot of times these days, when I tell folks my one-on-one prices, I mean, they're still like pretty decent.Gieselle: But a lot of times when I tell folks my one-on-one prices, they're like, oh, I was expecting it to be more. And I was like, I just don't need more. I just don't like, there's no reason to charge you thousands upon thousands of dollars for something that, I mean, I hate, I probably shouldn't say this as a coach, but I just don't think there's coaching.Gieselle: That's worth a hundred thousand dollars, unless you are a straight up millionaire. Revolutionary business is one that prior, like I said, prioritizes your body. And so, what that means is you leave space for your cycles, your ebbs and your flows, and you do things slowly and you aren't working 24 7.Gieselle: That's what I think of when I think of revolutionary business. And it's one where at the end of the day, it's really for the collective liberation of folks of color. Like that's, that's what I think about. Like, even if you know, not anyone listening to us is white, but like, even if you're white at the end of the day, like your revolution should start with the, with the collective liberation of folks of color.Gieselle: That's where everything starts at the end of the day. So that's what I think of when I think of when I think of revolutionary business. Dalia: Oh, I love that. And we would probably be surprised because that was something that I think I learned in the program, but also had reinforced by white friends who said, they have to be told don't come in for them to, for it to even occur to them that maybe not all spaces are for them.Dalia: Totally. So, they said, they would absolutely still go into a conference that says African American, blah, blah. They said it wouldn't even occur to them that maybe they're not supposed to go in there. And so, we may very well have a lot of white listeners, you know, because luckily for them they've been socialized to feel welcome everywhere they go.Dalia: Just so y'all know that it's not a universal experience. And all I can say is, must be nice, but it's interesting howGieselle: like literally kicking my feet in joy at that must be niceDalia: but it has been interesting starting to accept more how much like you said, everything is a building block and how much of our experiences, while of course you don't wanna suffer for the sake of suffering.Dalia: But it is interesting how much, if you survive and experience, it is a catalyst for growth. And that even though systemic oppression blows and racism sucks, it does help you build skills. And it creates an opportunity for you to get to know yourself in a way that people are not likely to experience if their existence isn't constantly challenged. And if their worth isn't constantly challenged. But the thing is, you get to opt out of doing that. Like you can just suffer and not grow. And sometimes depending on your trauma, that is where people hang out. And that's been one of my biggest challenges with wanting to work with people who have a lot of racialized trauma or who have a lot of trauma around gender identity and community is some people are in a place, like you said, where they're totally shut down. They can't connect. And so, you show up and you do things and all the people that come forward don't have the trauma that you were seeking to help them with and you're like, is anybody listening?Dalia: So, was there ever a point in your work where you started to wonder, is this going to work? Should I give up or should I pivot?Gieselle: Every day literally every day. I won't say it's a rational thought. I think that that hasn't been a rational thought for me in a really long time. But I actually did do a little bit of a pivot this year.Gieselle: Because for the past year, I've been speaking specifically to revolutionary business for folks of color. And then I did this small pivot to expand the message for like all change makers, all revolutionaries. And I did that and it was like crickets, absolute crickets. And I was like, okay,Gieselle: something funky is happening here. It also didn't feel quite right to me if I'm like looking back at it. It just, I knew here's what I knew about my work is that at the end of the day, what I, what I love about the work is not what context and what, like situation we're talking about, talking about. It is like, I love working with great BIPOC folks.Gieselle: And so, and I want this work to impact as many incredible BIPOC folks who are ready for it and need it as it can be. So that's why I made that. Like I opened it up for a little bit and then after having that experience of like, okay, thriving stuff, like it's kind of radio silence, like not fully working, it's not feeling fully aligned.Gieselle: That's when I came back to, okay, its still revolutionary business, but it's just a different level. It's people who are even who are more resourced, not resourced. And when I say resourced, I mean resourced in their somatic capacity and their like ability to do the work and because we can go deeper and further.Gieselle: And because, you know, as I'm working with leaders, like you talked about earlier, it ripples. And so, the more impact I make with leaders, the more they're gonna go out into their individual revolutions and be able to serve more, more, more and more. Long story short, I think about pivoting every day.Gieselle: Not right now, right now. I'm like, but I wonder I'm like, I don't know, is I, is anything happening even though I know it's just the crazy space. I do know that for myself.Dalia: And did it feel scary to feel like, oh, I'm, niching down even more to people who clearly have the capacity. It makes sense if there were people in the container that weren't ready for it yet, but I would imagine it would also feel like ekk now I'm narrowing in even more.Gieselle: It feels really scary and really vulnerable. Every time you make a change in your business, there's no place where you're going to get. If you are someone where you've been generating income, even if you're not generating it at the level, you want to, you know, that when push comes to shove, you'll be able to generate some income.Gieselle: So, it's less scary for me because I know that my business could really, truly, never die. I mean, maybe like I'm gonna knock on this bamboo, what I've got over here. but. I have the skill sets to revive it if something were funky were to happen but making that change feels really vulnerable and putting out my new season of my podcast, it's all around revolutionary leadership and it, it, it is interesting.Gieselle: You know, I know I have those revolutionary leaders in my audience. I know so many of my folks wanna be those revolutionary leaders as well. And so, it's just about me believing, and this is really at the end of the day, this is all of it. And this is what brought me to serving BIPOC folks. This is what brought me to serving BIPOC folks in that way.Gieselle: It's just about believing that if you have the calling for it, if you feel it, if it feels right to you, it's right. And even if you don't fully believe it in the moment, even if your head is like, should we jump ship every single day? It's about knowing like, no, I'm still gonna like, hold my feet to the fire because I know that this is what is right.Gieselle: And this is what's meant for me. I just have to wait for it to actually come to fruition.Dalia: How do you get back to that place when you're in a position where you feel like you're doubting? There's a lot of people out there who are so good at communicating what they do.  and which is basically marketing that they know, Hey, I can just, you know, Put up a tent somewhere and I can sell some things and there's a lot of people who don't have that and they don't have that confidence, but business comes to you in different ways and that's okay too.Dalia: But what do you do when you can't seem to reconnect to that belief that, oh, this was an actual calling. How do you stay connected to that? MmGieselle: that's a great question. I tap into like, something that I really work to do every day is like to tap into some kind of divination tool or something that like does ground me in my spirituality.Gieselle: So, like right now I'm playing with tarot. I'm like getting to know the tarot again. And so, I'm pulling tarot cards or some things that like, honestly, the most important thing for me, like aside from like the spirituality, cause even that sometimes like can't fully ground me is having space held for me where I can name all of the fears and be reoriented and shown different perspectives. And so, for me, coaching is really helpful. I know that's like such a coach thing to say, but it's the truth is that like, I wouldn't be able to do like all of the things that I've done in my business, all of the shifts and changes and pivots and growth that I've had would never have happened without having like a really good coach.Gieselle: And when I'm talking about coaching, I'm not talking about people who just like showed up one day and said that there are coach, like I'm talking about like real skilled coaches who can hold space powerfully, who aren't trying to tell you what to do, but really understand the sole job of a coach, a true coach is to ground you back into that knowing and that feeling.Gieselle: So, someone that can bring you back there even more powerfully than you might be able to in that moment that's, that's been like the most helpful thing for me is so even if you're like, I'm not resourced enough to have a coach right now, having someone who it is capable of supporting you in a way where they step aside.Gieselle: And it's just about you, because I think that's the problem with relying on friends and family and stuff is that you always have energetic connection, like even with a coach, right. But it's, it's like their interests are somehow still intertwined with yours when you are talking to a friend or a family member.Gieselle: So, if you have someone who's able to like step back and be like, I literally don't matter here and you can feel safe just like, and we'll just dance with it from your space, then that can work too.Dalia: Yeah, it's really tricky learning how so I am in the process. I've already done my 125 hours, but I have not done all the coaching practice hours that I need to finish my PCC, but I should be done by this summer.Gieselle: Look at you go.Dalia: But it's been interesting seeing in the training, the biggest problem that I needed to suppress was the desire to offer a fix. When I felt like I knew exactly what they should do and how often they had an answer. That was not my answer. That was the perfect answer for them.  and how, even in the practice sessions.Dalia: I might say what I hear you saying is, and there's one word that I added that changes the tone that they're like, well, I don't really think it's that, but it reflects how I perceive their problem.  and usually it's because I don't relate to it. And I'm like, I'm imagining that this is how people must feel when they have these kinds of problems.Dalia: Or it could be that I relate to it so much that I'm projecting. It's just been interesting. Practicing, listening just to reflect back to the person what they're saying and what they actually want, not to help them with anything.Gieselle: It's so rare that we get that in this world. And I feel like that's so often all we crave at the end of the day, right.Is someone to see us and to it's really just for someone to see us. And that's 99% of what coaching is and being, and I wanna like take it outta the context of coaching and like being truly supported is right. It's like knowing that someone sees you and they're with you. It's like, if you're an, if you're sobbing, it's like, I don't have to sob, but like I'm here.Or if you're elated, it's like, I'm also there. But it's hard. It's hard to do because we're so used to, like, I'm sure you, you notice that someone who's like getting their PCC, but even as like a friend and an individual, right. It's like, oh no, this person's got something going on. How do I fix it? I'm like, what do I do?Dalia: Absolutely. And I've become more aware of when I want to fix it. Or I wanna bring in all this previous knowledge I have about the friend. And tell them, like I, in this case, do know what's right for you because I've known you for like 30 years . And trying to understand that that still doesn't make me the authority on their life. They are the authority. And the best thing I could do for them as a friend is try and help them see that they are the authority , but usually in reality these days, I'm like, I'm gonna tell you what to do first. And then I'm gonna ask you, like, what do you think you really wanna do? It's just so hard.Dalia: you're so to turn it off, I'm like, you know, I'm gonna be right. It can take years, but you'll come back. but the, the true training has been so helpful. But one thing I did wonder about is how did you survive coaching training and all the different containers you've been in that were not made for people of color. And come out with a skillset that is so perfectly tailored for folks of color.Gieselle: Yeah. That's a really great question. So, I will say I'll be like completely honest where my journey to like decolonizing and like being where I'm at, it's pretty, fairly recent. Like it was like a deep dive and like a going straight, to the deep end.Gieselle: But when I did my coach training, I can't remember what year years are gone to me, but like four or five years, five years ago, I think at this point. I was not bothered by being in fully white spaces yet because I was so used to it. And we were still at that point in society where like, I think we were still in that point where everyone was pretending like life was post racial, like Obama was president and like, like it's all good.Gieselle: And, you know, I was just starting to get, I had actually just had my first real life experience where I genuinely felt like my success was impacted by being Black, where I had never well, I will say I had never felt like I had that experience before. Like I feel like I was lucky for the most part.Gieselle: And I still found where I was able to go despite being Black. That being said, I really like these days, I really hate when people say that. Cause I'm like, yeah, yeah, right like Blackness, like never came into play in your success.Dalia: Well, what's so funny is the conditioning is so good in some areas. That you don't know, you don't know exactly you and you may end up doing the same things as your white peers. But what you don't know is how much more you had to do to get it. Exactly. Cause I even look back at what I've had to do for certain credentials.  and I never, in a million years would've thought to go to the professor and say, I'm just overwhelmed.And they say, don't worry about it. Or you can turn in a fraction of it. Or you can turn everything in late with no penalty. I did not know these things were a thing and then they start being revealed and I'm like, oh, I didn't even know how differently I was being treated.Dalia: Or when people only network with their white students, they don't announce that they're going to network with them. You know? So, it's interesting how sometimes you may not have felt it or noticed it, but definitely doesn't mean it didn't happen, but at least you didn't lose sleep over it.Gieselle: I didn't get sleep over it for sure.Gieselle: And so that was like my initial coach training. So, like, I didn't. So, like then I was like, oh, I don't know. Like, but I was really lucky. And, and when I say lucky, I mean, like it's obvious in retrospect that the majority of my clients this entire time have been folks of color. So like, to this day, if you get on a sales call with me and you don't tell me your like racial or ethnic identity, I mean, I can't go like as granular as country, but I can typically tell you like, okay, you are you've been an American for a few generations, one generation you are an immigrant, you are Latina, you are Asian, you are south Asian.Gieselle: Cuz like I just worked with that many people and I've seen like the typical, like there are typical things that come from each culture. And they manifest in different ways. So that's what really created my experience was just doing the work and doing it with the people.Gieselle: But I have had experiences where I didn't survive the container. And one of those was the precursor to creating. My to like creating my work in the shape that it is now where like long story short, I was doing this leadership program, which it's one of those things whereas a person of color, I look back at that leadership program and I'm like, so mad that it's so exclusive because it was great.Gieselle: But it was, it was my first experience being in a white space and feeling suffocated by whiteness. Like, I literally felt like I was losing my mind. And I remember my husband he's very rarely like actually great with these things. Juan is racially white, ethnically Latino, but it's, he's like very, he's very rarely good with these things.Gieselle: And he very rarely can like actually relate to my experience as a person of color. Cuz he is white, he reads is white. And so, but I like called him crying and I was like, I'm losing my mind out here. It didn't help that this program had, this program was one of those many like white spiritual programs where it had borrowed from a lot of different cultures.Gieselle: And they just felt like if they had the right intention that we should be able to do all of the things. And people had started talking about race because because they were using the word tribe and they refused to like, just let it go. Why white people insist on keeping words that aren't theirs, it never ceases to amaze me.Gieselle: Like I just don't understand it at all.Dalia: That's so interesting, cuz I was gonna ask like how was it suffocating you?Gieselle: So yeah, it was like, we were constantly having conversations about race that the people of color had to carry. And like I, as the sole Black person, there's a difference right in what you carry because as the Black person, everyone turns to you first around these things and then there's everyone else. And in the space, everyone only wanted to talk to me about racial things sometimes. Like we did this exercise, oh my God, this exercise. So, we did this exercise, which I actually think is a really beautiful exercise, but it's basically like assuming that your thoughts around people like your judgments around people and how they feel about you are probably incorrect.Gieselle: So, you clear it, you just say like, Hey, I feel like you think I might be talking too much and it's like, they don't need to respond. They don't need to do anything cuz you know, it's all about you. It's all in your head. Right. And you just release it. But everyone's the teachers literally said do not go up to Gieselle and every time say, say something about race.Gieselle: like, they literally said that and 90% of people still came up and did it anyways, did it anyways thinking they were special little butterfly.Dalia: That's so interesting. Like that goes back to it almost being impossible to keep certain environments just are not going to be safe. They're inherently unsafe.Dalia: So maybe the people who led it, maybe the people on stage, if it had just been you and them, it would've been fine. But all these other random, oh,Gieselle: not even them. not even that the woman who led it, white woman teared me the first day. And, and we talked about holding onto your marginalized identities, she's Jewish.Gieselle: And so she was like very much holding onto the like marginalization that Jewish people feel and like incapable of seeing like her impact in other ways .Gieselle: So, yeah, it, it was inherently unsafe and it was something that I didn't know going in, but it's known about this program. I think there are so many spaces that we all know, like I think about MFA programs sometimes I think about getting my MFA. I'm like nonfiction or fiction. And, but I'm not willing to intentionally go into unsafe spaces anymore. But we, we do that all the time as folks of color.Gieselle: We intentionally step in unsafe spaces because we wanna get that information. We wanna get the knowledge and the only way to get it, sometimes it feels like is to make yourself onDalia: Set yourself on fire. Yeah. That is interesting because in the end, even when you're not recognizing that what's happening to you is unfair and there's a disparity there, the stress that you carry and how hard just thinking about how much harder somebody has to work when every time they go into a space, they feel unsafe.Versus if you come in the space and you feel like totally at home and comfortable, just the amount of emotional and cognitive energy that goes into learning and staying on alert.Gieselle: Absolutely. Well, and when we talk about the way that, like our nervous system functions and our brain functions, when you are at alert, you don't have access to the higher parts of your brain that can process information, analyze information, like and so it, it really is impactful.Gieselle: It really is a detriment because you are not physically capable of taking in the same amount of information as someone who feels a hundred percent safe. And like, this is why I do my work. Because if you don't feel safe in the places where you're being supported, you can't actually get the support you need.Gieselle: Like you're only getting a percentage of it because you're like trying to navigate being in a space instead of just actually allowing yourself to let go and be.Dalia: That resonates so much. And that really explains how you can go into healing space and get virtually nothing out of it. Because the space itself was not safe.Dalia: Like I went into a container that a white friend recommended and they said, oh, he's so great. He's so intersectional. He's so progressive. So this is another person who had multiple marginalized identities, but still cis white man  . And I will say he did feel like a very safe person, but his container, you can't control these people.Dalia: No one said anything that was blatantly problematic, but I only went to one live meeting. Cause I was like, I am too tired to even deal with people, treating me like seeing me is some kind of event, you know, totally or recommending other Black resources to me when I didn't ask them for that. Like, people can't conceive of how peculiar that feels.Dalia: When somebody, you meet someone, you don't know them from Adam and they're not a person of color. And they're like, oh, you're this color. Here's this resource. What makes you think I need you to come rescue me? What makes you think you're an expert on what kind of community I need?Dalia: And did I ask you? I don't know you like that. What makes you think I take referrals from just anybody? And that's another thing that I feel like is unique maybe not across the board, but it's a necessary function of being in a country that's always like trying to kill you or make you feel like s**t is that, you know, better than to just take referrals from just anybody.Dalia: Like you don't know this person and they don't have the same lived experience as you for all I know she just saw a flyer somewhere or I could show up and they could, it could be 100% hoteps all the way through everybody transphobic and bananas, and to just not know that you really just shouldn't be offering all this information, willy nilly to people of color.Dalia: Who said we would respond to that? So that was just enough for me to feel like, oh, well, I'm a freak show here. And everyone is aware of my color and no one's just seeing me as a person. So these other people, you're just meeting a person. And when you are meeting me, all you're seeing is this is a Black person.Dalia: And you're trying to think about what you're saying or you're trying to do the right thing. It just felt hella awkward. And I was like, I don't have time for this s**t.Gieselle: And this is like the problem. Yes. I, number one, I see you. I completely see you and like, this is the problem, right? Because it's not that we don't wanna be seen as Black or whatever we are.Gieselle: It's like we wanna be seen in all of our identities and we don't want to be special or fetishized or marginalized because of them. And there's so very few people in very few spaces that are capable of holding both. I see you in the beauty of your identities and also you're still just a person than me.You know, like you're still just a regular degular person and those get to coexist and yeah, it's really hard to find that. And that's where I think we see a lot of folks. I see so many folks of color being like, I don't want people to see me as Black. I don't want them to see me as this thing first.Gieselle: It, and it's like, well, no, like, I think you do. like, I think you want them to like, acknowledge who you are because you know, when it comes to like, I, I feel like racial identity and I think, yeah, well, I'll, I'll just stick with racial identity cuz that's where I'm most well versed, but it's like, it's one of the most important identities to you.If not the most important identity to you, cuz there's so much culture and love and joy baked into that.Dalia: Most people really take issue with people saying they're colorblind because , that reads as I refuse to acknowledge your cultural distinctness,  in any way, I am not capable of celebrating that you have a culture.And that's a problem as well  and acting like, oh, I'm gonna give you permission to assimilate is some kind of a gift doesn't vibe with me. But I would like to be seen as like a whole ass person, like, yes, I am Black. And guess what? There's something that comes after that.  but people are so used to this really flattened image of anyone.Dalia: Who's not like them.  that they don't always understand. This is a complete person. This is not a caricature. You don't know anything about me if all you've done is look at me. You literally don't know anything about me. You wouldn't look at somebody white and think, oh, you know, I know most likely where they live, how much money they make, but other people make all these assumptions.Dalia: And all they've done is look at you. And they're convinced that they don't have a problem. And in a lot of these containers, you can't convince them of otherwise.  . So when did your interest in leadership become really clear for you? And I know you mentioned that because you can have the greatest impact with people who are leaders.Dalia: What does that even mean to you? Who is a leader?Dalia: That'sGieselle: such a good question. Everyone's a leader first and foremost. I mean, we really are, right. Like, even if you're just leading yourself, like, first of all, leading yourself, isn't just leading yourself because the way that you show up does impact other people and the way that they show up.Gieselle: But sometimes leadership is like being a supporter. Sometimes leadership is being a mother sometimes, or a parent. Sometimes leadership is just being a sibling or a friend or the person who says, Hey, let's get pizza tonight. You know? So I, I wanna say that that leadership is everyone. And also what I.Gieselle: The reason why I decided to lean into revolutionary leadership. And the definition that I am leaning towards with it, which is folks who have been on this train, right? They're on a decolonial train. They've been UNlearning. They've been doing all the things. They're in the process of creating an impact.Gieselle: They have a revolution that they likely are already leading. The reason why I decided to work with them is cuz I wanted to . Oh, IDalia: love that answer. That's not what I expected.Gieselle: It's and I will say it just feels right. To me, it really, I think something for me, because I think at the end of the day leaders, the leaders that I'm most excited to work with are coaches, healers, guides, like people who are really in the, in the trenches serving 24 7, or who have some kind of like deeper calling.Gieselle: I've always been fo been focused on people who have a calling. So like creatives, I love working with creatives as well. I, I completely forgot what I wanted to say. So I don't know. It's a half thought.Dalia: I, I was thinking the other day, like something I realized, well, a friend helped me realize, and I think I was afraid to step into this or accept it is that the work that I do also is not for beginners. Yes, but because of my fear of there not being enough people or my fear of nieching down too much,  or really having a laser focus that it would hurt me.Dalia:  I kept accepting people who were nowhere near ready. Yes. Like if you haven't done any healing work, I'm not for you.  . If you have no concept of the fact that you can internalize messaging, that doesn't serve you, that  works an opposition to your identities, then we're not ready to work together.Dalia: If I'm having to convince you that it's safe to start trusting your body, we're not ready for each other. Like if we're not, you are at the point where you believe it, but you're trying to get there. You have some concept of it and you're looking for an opportunity to do deeper work, then we're ready. Yep.Dalia: But it's just been tricky for me to acknowledge too, because of how marketing generally works or is presented to people what I am always hearing about is like how to just speak to pain points. And I think the pain points for somebody who's deeper in the work is gonna be different. And it probably won't sound as, I don't wanna say dramatic, but  the person might not even recognize it as a problem.Gieselle: Yes, absolutely. Because you've already done healing work. Right. And like, I mean, I always try to stay away from pain points in general because like it's manipulative and it's based in like sales psychology, which is like just manipulating our brain. Really when you're working with someone who isn't a beginner.Gieselle: And I think that's really what I, what made me want to move more towards leaders and people who like already have this language are already thinking about these things. They're like thinking deeply. And we're just exploring in a deeper way. Same as you is that it's just more fun. It's just more fun.Gieselle: And they're actually ready for the work that you're capable of doing and that you wanna do with people. But what you're getting to expand them into is something that I think as folks of color, we don't get to expand into enough, which is just having more, like more than enough. You know, I think it's tough with like both of the kinds of works that we do, cuz it's not just like, oh, well I'm gonna go make you like $10,000 in one day.Gieselle: And like for your work, because you're doing wellness in a decolonized way, you might not lose weight or you might not do this thing that that you think you want, it's not the sexy thing. And also it's allowing you to expand into this moreness this space that we very rarely allow ourselves to even dream of, because it feels so hard to access as a person of color.Gieselle: We're always just fighting for enough. We're fighting for the scraps, the thought of having abundance and more, it's hard for us, especially as revolutionaries where, I mean, we could even talk about the concept of more it's like, well, how much is too much and then when are we hoarding and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, this it's this really difficult concept for us that comes into play..Dalia: Yeah, that brings up, this is one of my big questions. How do you reconcile the fact that some people feel like everything has to be accessible to everyone? And the people who will feel kind of like butt hurt because it's for advanced people or it's for people who have more resources and the people who feel like thriving rates, shouldn't be a thing.I was listening to something Sonya Renee Taylor was explaining was that she's not trying to be out in these streets, starving, you know, dying with an unmarked grave or doing some Zora Neale Hurston type of s**t. Like we are not, you don't have to do that. But the criticism that comes at you, especially if you're assigned female at birth, if you are not like, Hey, I just wanna bleed and give, give, give, give, give, I don't need anything.Dalia: I'm just gonna eat s**t and say, thank you. Like, how do you reconcile the part of you that does want to help  and the part of you that you were not called to do entry level s**t. and like, do you explain that to people or do you just let it go? You just say like, Hey, there's a bunch of tables out there go find another one. Like, how do youGieselle: handle that?Gieselle: Well I'll say first and foremost that I do not have the kind of personality where people feel comfortable stepping to me in that kind of way, like in any way, shape or form. So I'd never worry about someone actually saying that to my face, but to, for people who are thinking that, you know, I know that in my work, cuz people tell me all the time, like I have fundamentally shifted the way that people think just from my free content and just from the emails I sent and the Instagram posts I make in my Facebook group, like I'm constantly educating there, perspective shifting there.Gieselle: And there is so much available to you and so much growth available to you if you just hang out in my world. Which I'm always shocked by because because like at the end of the day, like I know that the real juice is in the actual coaching and then at least that's how I've always felt. Right. But there are so many people who tell me, like, I think about this thing completely differently because of these emails or this, that, so that's what I say is that like, my work is a hundred percent accessible.Gieselle: If you follow me for free, if you go to my stuff there's an abundance of information for you to sit with to process, like, sure you're not getting the like coaching side of it, but for, it's not, it's also, that's not always necessary for every single person. Like some people really just need to hear something a different way.Gieselle: And then it just like changes everything for you. And the last thing I would say to anyone who's like coming at me with that, is that what are you doing, policing what I do with my money and my and my life. Like, I am not a billionaire. I think that there's a really interesting societal, like investigation we can do here.Gieselle: Right. Because we actually so very rarely interrogate billionaires around this kind of thing. We are just like, well, they worked really hardDalia: and theyGieselle: deserve it. They're a genius. And then us like the people who are out here doing like the real work to help liberate people were expected to bleed and to do it happily.Gieselle: And that's just an, I, I would really tell anyone like, If you're gonna be like coming for somebody, go to Jeff Bezos, don't be stepping to me talking about how I should charge $1. And you're still ordering s**t off of amazon.com. Okay. Dalia: Yeah, that really says something because you'll hear people even argue like, well, the more money you send in that person's direction is gonna generate jobs.Well, who says that I wouldn't be a good steward of that money. Cause so there's multiple layers there. What makes you think the money isn't better off in my hands than someone else. And why would you want me to have to work insane hours at a job that supports me so that I can keep bleeding for you doing labor for free, like sure.Dalia: It's a labor of love, even podcasting  but the key word there is labor.Gieselle: well, and this like comes all, it, it comes back to all of our relationships with capitalism, right? It's we all are so used to living in a system where we're supposed to work 24 7, and we're supposed to exploit ourselves for someone else's gain that.Gieselle: It feels right to people and it feels it, well, let me rephrase this. It feels wrong to people when you honor yourself and your needs, that is actually like, feels wrong in like a problem to them. And so that's the real issue around it is that there's some deep internalized capitalism that anyone who's questioning that really needs to look at.Gieselle: And question, if they're coming to any person of color questioning what they're charging and they're thriving because we are all owed so much more than we could ever get in this lifetime. I don't know, maybe not Oprah. Like she's good, but but everyone, but everyone else, like, no, we we've got more than enough coming to us.Gieselle: There is, we got more than enough generations of wealth that we deserve. And if we want it, I'm not someone where I'm like out here trying to generate tons of generational wealth or things like that. That's not really what I care about at the end of the day. But if that is what you care about, and that's something that you're wanting for yourself, I support you.Gieselle: And I love you because you deserve that thriving. And it's been stripped of us for so long. Get it while, get it in this lifetime. If it feels right for you.Dalia: I love the freedom that you give people to find their own solutions and understand that the answer might not be right for everybody because we know it in general, the way things are set up now it's predatory.Dalia: Yep. People aren't prioritized, but there are a lot of people out there acting like, well, you need to burn it all down and you shouldn't accept money for anything. And you should just like live under bridge. Well, why are you out here trying to take people's freedom of choice away from them to decide like, do I wanna try and thrive?Dalia: Do I feel like I can do more if I make sure my revolution is sustainable and maybe your revolution looks different and we don't have to put that on other people. And that's, to me, that's also a sign of really quality, authentic coaching is that you give people m

Kris Henry (they/them/theirs) is a radical Jamaican nonbinary creative, an Obeah enby, and an Aborisha in the Lukumì tradition. Kris creates art in many forms—centering their twerk as a spiritual safe space for Black queer, trans and intersex folx. They seek to create authentically empowering, ancestrally connected healing experiences that bring a sense of agency and sovereignty back to the historically marginalized from the inside out. Kris’ first published project is a collection of poetry titled “Love LETTERS”, and their second project, Warri(O)racle, is an online chapbook. Their latest creative baby is The Spiritual Abolitionist Oracle Deck: a radical, Black and queer centered divination tool to affirm the spiritual safety and wellness of Black queer, trans and intersex folx. You can find their projects at www.thespiritualabolitionist.com and follow them on Instagram @kriswithakcreates and @thespiritualabolitionist to see what they’re up to next.This episode we explore:Connecting with your ancestors and trancestorsHonoring our queer ancestors with visibilityGender in the spirit worldProtecting your spiritual energyThis episode is too good to keep all to yourself.Hello. Welcome to another episode of body liberation for all. I'm your host, Dalia Kinsey your Black, queer, holistic registered dietitian and the author of Decolonizing Wellness A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation.Like I've covered on the show before and like I covered the book, healing, growth, there's no end to it. If you are a curious person, if you are a person who's really interested in being as free as possible, you know there is no end point. As soon as you dig in deep and heal one area of your life, another layer appears. It's never over.And something that I have been working on a lot lately is my relationship with spirituality and my reluctance to openly talk about the spiritual traditions that I feel most closely tied to and realizing that I have been socialized/ colonized to normalize Christian beliefs and to not think it's strange when someone believes wholeheartedly in the rapture or in the second coming of Christ, all of that seems perfectly normal. And all the time in the United States, you see people who are professionals, who are academics, blending their Christian belief systemand the work that they do all the time, you see therapists doing their work through a Christian lens. And I don't often find people criticizing that, but that may also be because I'm in Georgia.That said I've been taking a closer look at my reluctance to dig in, to traditional African spirituality in a public way and questioning why do I think that people may see me as less professional if I openly share my spiritual beliefs?What are the assumptions that I'm making? What are the assumptions that I have internalized that make it seem complex to me, to both be a person who believes in science and a person who believes in ancestor veneration? Why does it seem like those two things don't go together? Where does that come from? And what can I do to uproot those beliefs from my own consciousness?So, this conversation is coming from a bit of a vulnerable place because it's something I'm still working through. And I know that at some point I'll face that challenge of not feeling compelled to defend my spiritual beliefs or to counter. Any ignorant statements that imply the ancestor veneration is somehow more primitive than Christianity or somehow less logical than Christianity.Now for any of the atheist fam that's listening. I am sure that it all seems maybe about the same level of illogical. But I will say you were warned that my approach is holistic mind, body, spirit.And this episode, we're leaning heavily into the spirit aspect of that. I do think it is very important for your wellness to have a view to have a belief system that supports who you are as a full person.One of the things that is most nourishing about the traditions I've been exploring lately is that they don't have an element of proselytization. So, you are free to believe whatever affirms you and whatever feels good for you. And that doesn't affect me, and it doesn't have to affect my belief system.That is an enormous departure from the form of Christianity that I practiced in my youth. But it is a deeply liberating approach to spirituality. So, there's room for everyone. And if you already know in your gut, this episode is not for you.Then I'll see you on the 15th. Today am joined by Kris Henry.Kris is a spiritualist and they identify as an Obeah enby and an Aborisha in the Lukumi tradition. So, a lot of the insights that Kris brings us today are coming through that lens. You have to check out their site, www.thespiritualabolitionist.com If you don't immediately fall in love when you see them using twerk in place of work throughout the branding of the site and centering Black queer trans and intersex folks, I don't understand you. They are a fascinating person their book of poetry, entitled love letters, I absolutely love, and I've gotten so much value out of there oracle deck. I love using oracle decks, tarot decks as journaling prompts so that I can really connect to my own will whenever I'm at a crossroads.I've started working with Kris myself and the more I honor ancestral practices, the more empowered I feel in the present tense.I deeply resonate with their goal to create authentically empowering ancestrally connected healing practices that bring a sense of agency and sovereignty back to the historically marginalized from the inside out. Doesn't that just hit you in the heart? Their work is beautiful. This conversation was lovely.Let's get into itBody Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.Dalia: Thanks for coming on the show today, Kris.Kris: Thank you for having me.Dalia: I'm so excited.I got my oracle card deck. So originally this is how we met. I saw you posted something on Facebook about your deck pre-sales being ready to go live and what really just grabbed my attention was that it's specifically from the perspective of a queer nonbinary Black person. And how many times is that even an option? Because I know even when I was just looking for a tarot deck or an oracle deck actually made by a Black person, I couldn't find, but a few. And there were others out there where they had Black characters depicted on the card, but it was clearly like exactly the same images from something else.I don't know if you've ever tried to buy a Black Santa, but anybody who has knows the struggle. So sometimes you'll find a quote unquote, Black Santa, but it is the white Santa who's been painted. And sometimes it even has the audacity to chip before Christmas is over. So, it was the same thing. Some of these, I was like, all y'all did was paint these same characters, Black or even worse.I saw a couple from non-Black artists. And it was their concept of Blackness, which we'll just say it was off. It wasn't, it wasn't accurate. So anyway,Kris: Hashtag problematicDalia: Thank you! Then I actually saw you promoting your own art. I was just fascinated. So, I would love to hear about your journey into spiritualism and how you got to the point that you created this for the rest of us, who've been dying to have something exactly like this.Kris: Oh my gosh, you don't even know how many back flips my heart just did that you said that because, I mean, I felt the same way to be totally honest with you.I was looking for a deck that really resonated with me. And I was like, I don't want to feel like a part of me is left out. Like, this is very like cis- het in premise, even though it's Black or this is non-Black, but it's queer kind of thing. And yeah, so that really just warmed my heart. I just had to say, thank you.Thank you for that. So, my journey into spiritualism, well, I was like a very devout Christian when I was in high school and nobody made me go to church or anything. I think like some part of me just knew I needed something spiritual in my life. And then in college I started having like a crisis of faith and just started really questioning a lot of things about the foundations of Christianity.So I was in more of a place where I was like, I don't know what I believe. But in that time, my father's mother passed, and I started seeing and hearing her. And that was my introduction into ancestors, I would say. And that's probably the foundation of where like all my other connections with different spirits and energies and stuff really started.Dalia: How did you feel when that first happened? Because I know me growing up in a, I was made to go to church, so difference there, and there was always a lot of fear around anything that had to do with the dead. At least what I was told was that if you think you heard a deceased, loved one, it's a demon pretending to be them.So, I would have been alarmed, had that happen to me. But what was your experience?Kris: I think what this really came down to is that I was blessed to have relationships with both of my grandmothers while they were alive. So, it was like, I knew their energies. Both of them, like when they passed, I knew it was, they knew it was me kind of thing.And like right before my grandma passed a few months earlier, when we kind of found out that she wasn't going to make it and they were like, just take her home so she can be comfortable for however long she has left kind of thing. She started saying something very like random to me about like asking me what size shoe I wear.And she was like, I just have a feeling you're going to have to wear my shoes. But she was like this hardcore prayer warrior. And there were so many things that she used to do that I didn't understand as a kid, or I thought like, she's just really, really into this and not quite as much as me kind of thing.And, but it's like, they're really like some foundations for spiritual ism and that side of my family, despite being very devoutly, Christian, they're very superstitious about things that kind of let me know. There was other things that folks started hiding in Christianity on that side of my family. So, I think between those two things, I just knew it was her.I literally felt it in the moment that she let go of her existence in this life. And I felt her come to me and then I just started feeling her. It'd be like, grab this while you're at the store. And I would need it like six months later and stuff like that. And then eventually she was like, I need you to make me, she didn't describe it as an altar.Other people call them alters, but she described it as a landing pad. She was like, I need you to make me a landing pad. I need to introduce you some other ancestors. And so that was how she basically taught me how to make an altar. And so I'm spirit taught in a lot of the things that I do, like different spirits, just kind of introduce themselves to me cause they know that like I won't get freaked out and I kind of, you know how to communicate and learn them.I think the foundation of that is that I knew her while she was alive. And so, it was like, I got to be in her energy while she was alive. And I knew it was her when she passed. Yeah.Dalia: That really resonates the idea that even in families that have become very deeply interested in Christianity or that's the only religious practice they associate with that doesn't mean that all of the old spiritual practices are gone.And it's something that I've seen pop up a lot of places, the accusation or the false idea that Black Americans who are descendants of enslaved people have no culture because slavery interrupted all of that. And somehow, we just magically became nothing but property. And there are even some Black Americans who believe that, like we have nothing, but it's not true.It may be took different forms and our culture has evolved to be something that you don't find on the continent. It has become something else, but at no point, did we become culture free or spirituality free and only have the option of what, you know, your oppressor offered you. It always becomes some kind of hybrid version of what we were before and who we are now.So, I've been reading more about hoodoo and how you can see a lot of practices you see, and who do come from specific indigenous practices that people might still practice a little bit in Africa, not as much because colonization also affected people's relationship with indigenous religions there, but you can see that people were brought here and then became like an amalgamation of all the different religious practices.It wasn't coming from one specific area. So, it becomes a reflection of the diaspora and you find it everywhere. You just don't always recognize where it came from.Kris: Exactly. And that was what I would actually go to say that that applies to Black people globally. Cause my family is actually Jamaican. And I like work with Christian spirits, but I also practice Obeah and those two things are treated like they're totally different.And Obeah is still like illegal because it's associated with curses and hexes, but people don't know that a lot of those laws came from when Obeah men were giving slaves poison to poison their masters and were giving slaves or enslaved people, rather because I'm like reprogramming that one in my brain.But we're giving them tokens for a courage to rebel and things like that. Because before that white people were still going to Obeah men in Jamaica too. So, it was just like, but it's different when you start using this stuff to mess with their systems. Right? So that's where a lot of like the witchcraft laws aroundreally began. It's like rooted in this tradition of rebellion. And I don't know, it just never felt mutually exclusive for me because both of my grandmas were Christians. And so, it's like, despite the fact that Obeah is really what connects me to my ancestors and through my ancestors connects me to a lot of other stuff.It's like, I know that like a lot of Christian spirits have my back because my grandmother is prayed over me, like to them tooDalia: So, some of these other spirits are not deceased blood relatives. They could be spirits who have been looking out for your family for a while.Kris: Exactly. And that's the thing for a lot of Black people globally like that.I really try to impart is that. You can be the one who is restoring some tradition from 600 years ago and developing a new way of relating to this spirit that could just recognize like, oh, hey, you know, you're a descendant of this like bloodline that I have like a pact with or whatever. So as a lot of people are really waking up to these things, you know, a lot of these spirits are like, oh, you might actually be open to be in the one I can talk to you now.Dalia: Now when it comes to that, was there a recognizable alter in hindsight, in your grandma's house?The one who said she needed a landing pad; did she have one?Kris: So, both of my grandmothers had like these just different like display case things with everybody's funeral programs or like a wall wave and yeah, one time actually, when my mom on. On my mom's side, she basically says like, yeah, I like to keep everybody's programs.Cause my mom used to do it. Like, and one time she saw my altar and she totally rearranged it somewhere else. She like brought me something and she didn't go, this was my author. She was just like, well, I just saw you had this right here. And I thought it made sense to do it like this. And she completely like perfectly made an altar and she knows nothing about that stuff just from seeing it so many times without a name though.Dalia: That's so interesting because I never thought about that saving the programs. And that is so interesting. Yes, absolutely. I have a ton of relatives who do that, who feel very Christian and that's all they are, but like my mother is half Jamaican and half Cuban and I know just, they worked so hard to break people away from their traditional ways that feels like even in the family members, there is this fear around all things that aren't recognizable as part of Catholicism or part of another branch of Christianity. Even the family members that, you know, in Cuba, the mixing of Santeria and Catholicism,but then some people are like, oh no. Even if their neighbors and the rest of the town says, this is normal, and this is what we do here. So have you had any tension like that with anybody in the family or you've been able to just stay focused on what you knew was right? And you were affirmed by your two grandmas?Kris: Yeah, it's definitely more so the second one, I like. I don't know that I've really been like super close to a whole bunch of my family. Like, as I just got older, because I was just more so in community where I was, and my family didn't necessarily live near me, you know? So, I wouldn't necessarily be the person who was like traveling across the country for a bunch of family events.So, in that way, it's like, I mean, if somebody does have a problem with me, they probably just keep their distance. And I don't know, but the family members that I'm close to are all really, really cool about it, but also just because they know me as a person. So, it's like, nobody's looking at me like, oh, Kris is just evil.Dalia: That's a blessing in itself. You don't need that extra, heat from family.Kris: Yeah. And so, I don't know. I feel like if I have a feeling like somebody does feel like that, I just kind of keep my distance from them. And I do think internally I had to work, lose some things like both with my queerness and with my spirituality on that front.But over time, like my sister burns ancestor money now she'll hit me up. Like, what should I do to like, thank the ancestor because this money burns has just brought in some clients, like what's going on.And I had a cousin hit me up one time was like, what's this aura cleanse business about?Definitely some of like my family's minds have open or they felt led into just trying some stuff and seeing how they can work their realities and things based off seeing me. So that's been really good.Dalia: I love that, like you said, other ancestors or other spirits in general might recognize that you are the entry point into helping the family reclaim old practices, but then it also seems like living family may recognize you are the entry point to reconnecting to something that they've lost.Kris: Wow. I hadn't really thought about it like that, but yeah.Dalia: With the queerness, when did that come into your awareness? So, you were voluntarily, actively experiencing spirituality in high school, through a Christian Church where you aware of your queerness then, or were you in a church where that wasn't a problem.Kris: So, I don't think I was really aware of my queerness in high school, at least not like consciously. I think I became aware of my friend sometime in college around my junior year of college, I would say when I was just like dating more and hoeing more so, and senior year was my first queer relationship and we were together for a little while.And so, when it became like, just kind of clear that that was serious, that I wasn't like experimenting, I was really embracing like, no, I can just, I'm like just queer, you know, I can, I can have really queer relationships. At that point, I was like, all right, well, I'm gonna have to tell my family.They, cause I'm not like I'm obviously not going to like hide my relationships and stuff like that. Like that was just my mentality at that time was just, well, if like where there's going to be some problems, we might as well just find out now, you know? But I don't think anybody was really like actively homophobic or at least not like intentionally, because I do come from a Jamaican family.Like my mom sometimes will say like really insensitive stuff and I'll be like, Ooh, that was like really hurtful. But in hindsight, I can see like, she's trying, you know, she was trying, but there's like a cultural learning curve and stuff. And she wouldn't like, when I learned how to just communicate, like this hurts me, she would adjust her behavior rather than being like super reactive.So even looking back with that, like things where I would've been like, yeah, I was dealing with homophobia and stuff from my family, it was more like from a place of ignorance, it wasn't from a place of like malice or like anybody was going to disown me or anything like that, you know? And so, yeah. And then when I came out as non-binary, that was in 2019.So that was more recently that I came out to myself and then like to my family and stuff. Oh, it was a lot harder with my pronouns. Dalia: Oh my goodness. The struggle is real. How, what was that process like for you? Because I feel like in hindsight, so I was born in 81. I'm going to be 40 this year.And so, we didn't have a lot of language that we have now in English. And its weird how language can kind of bind you. It's hard to conceive of a concept that doesn't exist in your language, but at the same time, this is the colonizer's language. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of my ancestors’ indigenous languages, even though I speak Spanish because of my Cuban ancestry.Again, that's another colonizers language. So, I'm sure there was more room and gender wasn't as binary and some of these languages, because I know culturally the binary was not a thing in a lot of the cultures that we are linked to by blood, but for me, even trying to express, I knew I was never hyper femme. I always hated hyper fem things, but then I also thought, well, what part of this is just how we're socialized to think about femininity?And for a while, it was just like, well, I'm just a bunchy woman, but then in relationships with women, they were like, hmmm, you're absolutely not that. And then I'm like, oh, I'm an aggressive femme. Just trying to find the language and then trying to find which pronouns are mine, it's been such a journey. I find sometimes I'll even mis-gender myself, but lately what's been feeling right is no pronouns at all. And my mother growing up, even though she, her are her pronouns, she was always told us you never use someone's pronouns while they're in the room. Like, if I would say her talking about my mother, she would pop me in the head, not like super hard, but like, I'm right here.I'm your mother. I'm right here. Don't talk about me like I'm not here. And she said that it was a Jamaican thing, but I have not heard that consistently.I'm like, is it, where does that come from? Have you heard that before? Like being a thing, that even cis people say don't use pronouns while I'm standing right here?Kris: No, not in my family, but I'm so intrigued when I hear stuff like that, because it does sound like indigenous in nature.Dalia: It's weird. And then I mentioned it just someone else trying to explain, I don't use any pronouns at all, but some people, mostly straight people have been reading no pronouns as hostile to LGBTQIA+ people, but I'd heard other people saying it too.So I don't know I'm in like this weird place of like didn't we always know we were non-binary, but we just weren't using the word non-binary and isn't that just a big ass umbrella. And that's why so many of us are like, am I in the right place? Cause it's like such a big room.Kris: Exactly. Yeah. I because I think if I had the language, I probably would've started going by.Non-binary when I started going by Kris when I was 12, because I didn't have language for it, but I was like, it just sounds less like a girl's name, you know? Cause like my birth name was Kristen and so my family would call me Kristin, but everybody else in my life had called me Kris since that age, you know?And so it was like, I was thinking about it. I was like, if I would've had the language back then that probably would have been the moment that I would have been like, yeah, no, this is it's because this is like who I am and just feeling very much outside of a lot of the language and almost feeling like I existed just outside of a lot of people's concepts of what masculine feminine are and like, and I think that's divine.You know, and I think my connections with all these different spirits and all these different realms has just continued to affirm that. Like when you really start seeing the vast variety of realms that there are, it makes sense. How many of us are probably connected to all of these realms that are really just figuring out a new way to exist and new ways to express ourselves.But you're also not the first person ever I've known who doesn't use any pronouns and is just like, I know two people who just use their first initials and they're like, my pronouns are K you know.Dalia: That gives me an idea, that actually is really helpful. It can be hard for people to get used to it, not because they're trying to be difficult. It's just a bigger shift than them accepting your queerness and learning how to not be offensive to you, but asking people to use the correct pronouns when that's just not how the language has worked in their experience up until now. It's a struggle.So then when you ask somebody don't use any pronouns at all, they feel like they're saying your name entirely too much in a sentence. It feels very strange to them.Kris: Oh goodness. That's wild. Yeah. I think like, I'm just, I just know so many different queer people that I'm not programmed to just assume anything about anybody.So I'm very much like when somebody tells me, like, if somebody was like refer to me as it, I'm like, okay, that's just, you, you know,Dalia: It's not a problem with queer people because when people use Neo pronouns, I'm just like, okay, okay. I write it down. I put it next to their name in my phone and I get it. And I know to look at it again before we start talking so that I will use the correct ones.It's not that hard.Kris: Exactly. So, I think like being in community, you kind of learn to let people tell you who they are, rather than assuming anything about them. So it didn't like strike me as anything when I saw no pronouns. So I was just like, all right.Dalia: You see this is why spending time in community is so crucial. I really want to know more about when you look back, even thinking about your ancestors and the gendered language around like, oh, that was your great, great grandma, but was it, we don't know. You didn't meet, like we don't really know. Have you had any epiphanies that specific people have brought to you or once people get out of their physical body, is there less attachment to things like that?Because spirit never has a gender, right? At least that's what I thought that spirit is always gender free.Kris: Because this is a freewill universe. They can take on like any like forms and fashions that they want. That's why, like, even with our Orisha, you'll have different paths, like there's different lifetimes of them that will look different and we're different.And just because multidimensionality is a very real thing when it comes to spirits. And a lot of like, just the fact that energy does recycle in all these different ways. So you will have a lot of gender neutral entities that are like, I'm just like a universal energy. Like I don't, but then you will also have like goddesses or, you know, who are just like, no, I like really lean into what we would say is femininity now. But even within the, like, you've seen the deck, like I really break down how, like, these things are really formless energy concepts that can manifest in different ways. So there's no way to define it except to connect to it for yourself and decide what proportion of that you resonate with, you know?Just like, there's all different types of like identities that humans are realizing that we have it's very similar for spirits.Dalia: Interesting, because I had assumed that, especially when we're here in the west, a lot of times you're always dealing with some kind of male cis-gender God.I started to think it was always a projection that humans are putting on spirit, this gendered thing. But I never thought about, you know, the spirit itself or himself or herself may decide. This is the energy that I want to put out there. And then people pick up on that energy and understand this is a goddess, or this is just spirit with no gender.Kris: Right. And sometimes like, just depending on where your conception is, spirits won't necessarily have attachments to being seen a certain way. So if they have to take on a certain form to be comprehensible, then that's what they'll do. Like there's this one Veda where Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita where Krishna shows somebody Krishna’s universal form and it freaked the person out.Like the whole thing is like, I went through wonder, I went through total fear.... and then Krishna turned back into like a humanoid thing. So yeah that's like what I really look like. And you just aren't ready.Dalia: I wonder if that's why, so a while ago I got a reading, an ancestor reading. I was under the impression maybe something broke down in communication, but I thought that my ancestors were going to be, making bold, visible moves within a certain timeframe and that it didn't happen.But then when I went back for a follow-up reading, the person that had the reading, when they said, I think it's you, you are not ready and they know you're not ready and they're not here to freak anybody out. They know that if you really start hearing them and seeing them, you're going to have a little meltdown, even though you keep saying, show yourself, show yourself.They're like, ummmm, but you're not ready. So that all makes sense.Kris: Yeah, absolutely. Cause my spirits definitely know there's only certain times that I can deal with visuals. Other times it's like do not just pop up in the corner of my eye when I just woke up. Y'all like, don't do that. I don't have a problem with hearing anybody like that for some reason, that just never really freaked me out. So I'm like send a sound like before you send an image, if you see like I'm doing any meditation, I can look at you.Dalia: I love the idea of being able to set boundaries even with non-human entities.,Kris: You have to, or they'll run your life. Like they'll get away with as much as you let them get away with, but then you also have some, like, that's why I think ancestors, it's really important to connect with them before you start connecting with other entities because you are them.So they really understand your human limits a lot more than other spirits. Like some of them, it's not that they don't care, but they don't exist in this body. So they don't understand that you're tired unless you just say like, Hey, not right now, like I'm tired. Or if you're like, they don't come at me like that, like this is not a productive way to communicate.Like, okay, I understand that this is urgent, but you can't do this right now. This is hurting my ears. Like that kind of thing. You know?Dalia: How do you make sure that you specifically stick to your ancestors? Is it just by asking that only they come through or are there tools you would stay away from.Is that your experience? Are there certain tools we should save for later or save for never?Kris: So tricksters will definitely like, especially if the spirit doesn't recognize you. So it's if you haven't been initiated into something and you're like, oh, I'm just going to light this candle and summon and so-and-so and tricksters there definitely will be like, well, s**t, I'm just gonna answer cause like so-and-so's obviously not coming.Cause you don't know what you're doing. And they will just come and talk to you, like give me attention, give me energy. I think, well, number one, like either starting with somebody that you knew in life or somebody that you just heard a lot of stories about when it comes to ancestors and letting them be your entryway into other ancestors.And when it comes to branching out into other spirits, like, because when spirits realize you can hear them, a lot of different things, we'll just kind of like try to flood you sometimes. And so you do have to know how to say no . When I feel like somebody, I like haven't like consciously interacted with before it's coming.The first thing that I do is like ask, do you mean me my highest good. And if the answer is at all shaky, cause like a trickster will try to lie, but you can kind of feel, it feels like when a person's lying a little bit, you know, like there's just something shaky. You didn't know how to answer that directly.But then when I get a really direct response, the responses like, yes, like obviously like then it's like, okay, so now we can like talk.Dalia: That's really helpful. Do you, in your experience, does everyone who passes, like if you're thinking of a close relative that died, but in life they were super, super Christian and all they ever envisioned was going straight to heaven no in-between is everybody available to be called out to, or are there some people that based on what they said when you knew them.They probably have moved on and they can't hear you anymore.Kris: It really depends. Some ancestors are earth bound. Like for some reason they just couldn't cross over. They can't let go. And some really didn't have something just deeply unhealed in them. That just still plagues them as a spirit.So different situational things like that will affect even if you say like, let me speak with my honorable ancestors or my righteous ancestors, then like certain ancestors, aren't going to be able to answer that. And that is how you want to start. You don't want to start with like your unhealed ancestors giving you a bunch of discouraging advice. I think one thing when people talk about this separation though, is that eventually you can reach a point where you can do healing work with those ancestors, but you really have to have a solid foundation with the ones who mean you your highest good first, you know, so that like you can really see that distinction and know the kind of healing work that you're doing.Because a lot of the things with your unhealed ancestors are also unhealed in you. So that's a very vulnerable thing.Dalia: Can you help them do healing without directly interacting with them? If you do your own healing work does that go backwards, and forwards like with your other relatives?Kris: Yeah. I think anytime anybody heals themselves, it heals around and backwards and forwards.The present is in conversation with all things, whatever current present you're choosing is in conversation with alternate realities, it's in conversation with the future and it's in conversation with the past. And so, yeah, you can definitely do things to elevate ancestors who need elevating and help bring them peace, but you need to be in a solid place and have a solid, hold on those things within yourself first, you know?Dalia: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. I've been thinking a lot lately about, well, not lately, probably like forever about intergenerational trauma and how it physically is passed on to you through DNA. But then also wondering if sometimes if you feel like a high level of rage or just general being super, super high strung in a way that indicates you're a descendant of survivors of trauma, but also could be that you're still feeling their energy and all this unresolved rage that they died with because they were subjected to countless injustices and just all the disappointment you can even imagine.If you get to a point where you're spending your time in silence and you feel like your nervous system is less agitated all the time, would that also be going out to them or does that not necessarily mean anything's happened beyond you?Kris: Oh, it absolutely does. Like, your DNA is like a continuation of that, you know?And so yeah, the intergenerational healing definitely does impact the experiences of intergenerational trauma, because it starts activating the things that the trauma deactivated within the bloodline too, you know, like these connections with all these other spirits. That's why sometimes when you move through something that does take up a whole lot of weight, because trauma is like a really heavy energy, wherever you experience it.Right. And when you clear that it makes room for like a whole lot of subtle energy that was once there before, you know.I think you said something earlier about like ancestors who conceptualize gender differently that I wanted to touch on because a lot of the people will say it was the great mothers were the original humans, but they like it when I say the great ancestors, because so many of them did not resonate with womanhood.Like there were trans men, they were folks who in today's terms would identify as non-binary. And that's why like Black queer trans and intersex folks do have like a lot of unseen forces that are so in supportive us, like being visible and being out.Dalia: That makes me wonder too, when you spoke about ancestors that are invested in the wellbeing of your family, not because you're blood relatives, but because they had a commitment with your blood line.I immediately thought that this could also be like folks who never decided to have children of their own or couldn't for whatever reason also being part of our extended family. Family isn't just blood family in this life or in any other.Kris: Yeah, absolutely. And that's where like the whole concept of trancestors comes from too.Like a lot ofDalia: Ohhh tell me about that I haven't heard that.Kris: I feel like my first trancestors were Monte Carlo and Keywan they pass they were really like really integral in the Atlanta community. But they were two of the first, like people who had passed that my ancestors were like, okay, you have to help them transition.You have to work with them and stuff like that. So I actually bonded with them, in depth and wound up really involved in doing a lot of like death doula work and helping community members like grieve and like sending messages from them and things like that. And it really has deeply connected me to a lot of trancestors who really their family and this life was community, you know?And so they, they look over communities still.Dalia: Oh, wow. That's beautiful. So the things that you offer to the community as a spiritualist, you do death doula work, and you also have created the Oracle deck for us. What are the other things that you do?Kris: I'm also just a deeply creative person, so there's a lot of like just creative stuff that I do as well. I paint, I do poetry. I've been a career spoken word artists. And so I would say that while it's not necessarily my career, it is another deep, part of my calling is to be a creative soul.But the spiritual abolitionist definitely is and the cosmic reparations fund and just making myself available as a universal, spiritual support system for Black queer trans and intersex people who sees them like for who they are, you know? And I think it's deeply meaningful to receive spiritual support and healing protection tools, prosperity tools.Everything in my shop is really geared towards things to make our lives easier, given all the s**t that goes on in this system. So when there was a lot going on with police action against Black people, I dropped the f**k around and find out protection blend was like, okay. So if a white person is trying to kill you with the cops clot then went this, you know, like, but then also like when I see people crowdfunding like, oh, Hey, here's some ancestor money burn this as you crowd fund and help manifest more funds for you.You know? The higher love potion, which is like a roll-on oil is like, I see a lot of folks going through stuff emotionally. So this is going to help with calling in your spirits who can help with emotional support, you know so it's deeply rooted. Just everything that I do. I'm open for aura cleanses and for divinations this month as well. The deck really came out of like, I was like, I can't really like divine for everybody all the time, but I think this is literally a way that I can, you know, and when I realized that like that Oracle deck did not exist, that was for like Black queer trans and intersex folks. I was like, all right, well, I need to create, it was basically what spirit was just like, it doesn't exist yet.Cause you didn't make it like you paint, you write you've been a collective channel, what's stopping you they were just like, why haven't you made it already? Dalia: I love that. I love that. And for anybody who doesn't know the difference between tarot and oracle cards, what is the difference to you as someone who actually has made it.Kris: Yeah. So tarot is a regimented system. So even though you'll have them with different themes and using different things to express them, there's still basic things about numbers and the elements and stuff that just applies to tarot and the major Arcana also. And so it's more regimented in that way, you're going to have the same number of cards you're going to have the same archetypes. Oracle decks are a lot more open-ended even in how you can read with them.with this one, they, it went through like several different editing processes kind of, because I was initially gonna like, have a lot more keys and they were just like, why? Just like, like you said, everything you need to say, like stop trying to like rub your nose against the grind stone.Basically.Dalia: When you say it could be read different ways to, how do you recommend somebody use a deck?Kris: So you can pretty much approach it anyway, that was one thing about the reason that I. Went to different primordial, just universal energies but I more so consulted the universal energies who were conscious of marginalization and of the spiritual warfare on the mental and emotional wellbeing of Black queer trans and intersex folks every day, because we're seeing it more.And I started just seeing a lot of things that folks were going to have to be dealing with in the next 10 to 25 years. And it was like, yo, I need the guidance that's really going to help, folks to do the inner work, do the outer work or whatever to be prepared. And a lot of us who can really feel that new ways of existence need to, are going to need to be existing sometime soon.You know, I was like a lot of these oracle decks are very frilly and love and lighty and don't necessarily acknowledge like, no, revolution is coming. It's really here in the spiritual realms, you know?Dalia: Oh, yeah, that resonates so deeply. So much is missing in these mainstream spiritual practices that have hijacked some indigenous traditions and over simplified them.And everything's about 'love and light love and light', and the insinuation is if you really are a spiritual person that you're only aware of positive things, and every time something negative, you know, starts to come toward you, you're just like positive vibes only. And then magically that negative force just poof disappears.We know from living in these Black bodies, that's not a f*****g thing. And that you could be bursting with positive energy and spiritual power and you will still have to deal with whatever the fuckery is of the day, whether that's somebody's homophobia f*****g up your employment situation, or somebody's transphobia f*****g you over, or somebody racism, it really is a thing.So when you just now said it's spiritual warfare, can you talk about that? Because I would love to hear from a spiritual perspective, that's focused on abolition and liberation. What is really going on?Kris: Oh, okay. I'm going to have to like talk about this kind of broadly and you're going to find this getting fucked.So my, my word that I like to use is Babylon for the powers that used to be, I'm just going to say, cause they're really scrambling to hold onto power now. Because I think so many Black people are waking up and kind of realizing when you feel very drained because of a lot of these things, your energy is going somewhere.It's powering things. And so a lot of the times, like when there's like these really subtle stories, these news stories, that these are the ones that everybody's seeing everywhere of, like, like I was telling somebody the other day, I've marched for a lot of people who did not make the news. And now all of a sudden it has to be a news story.And the video footage has to be on your timeline and stuff like that. And just things that like will fundamentally make you feel unsafe and make your spirit feel unsafe in your body. That energy goes somewhere. So that stuff is very much intentional, just like in terms of trying to degrade our mental and emotional wellness to distract us from getting messages about what we need to be doing and ways that we can be prepared and things that we're meant to be doing on this earth right now to deal with this stuff, you know. For a whileI was just like going around doing healing, work with different places in the land where there are a lot of Black American earthbound ancestors who just died in such horrific ways that they're not at peace . And so I would just go out and do healing work. That was where, like the term, the spiritual abolitionist really came from, was it felt like helping free them and free these ancestors that were bound.But those were ritual sacrifices. You see what I'm saying? Like the KKK is a ritualistic group. And so even when those things, like they're deeply embedded in a lot of the folks who are at the top of these corporations and stuff like there's ritual symbolism and things like that, that they're really trying to do to wage war on us all the time, and to keep us blind to our power, you know?But the thing is a lot of us, we are we're master manifesters or we have spirits who are master manifesters like, we have spirits who will make ways for us and stuff like that. And spirits who will give us strength like High John the Conqueror is one that a lot of people will use because he's really big on emotional uplift and on helping you find ways to outwit them and outwit situations and stuff.And so I like, as a shadow seer, I can see like certain like ritualistic things that are going on and are very background when certain things start circulating like that. And so I'll also see like, okay, this will be emotionally manipulating this kind of stuff. So then my channelings will be like, Hey, do this kind of inner healing work, focus on this in this time, you know?To try to send messages from energies that are trying to balance and neutralize and not allow certain outcomes to happen to folks. And so that also definitely went into the creation of the deck was just teaching people how to protect themselves on a small scale when people are throwing crap at you or just evil eye and stuff, but also on a larger scale with the stuff that the state is just doing every day to try to f**k with us, you know?Dalia: I've been hearing lately from almost everybody I know at this point in my life, everybody, they told you on a regular basis is involved in some kind of social justice work in some area, whether it's trying to get equal access to healthcare for fat people, whether it's trying to get people to stop murdering Asian people, everybody's in some kind of liberation work and everyone has been so demoralized lately that at the end of every conversation, it's just like, I guess my new objective is just to survive. Like repeatedly friends, keep saying, when I asked, well, how are you doing? And they know, I don't mean just give me some surface level. I mean, how are you really doing?How are you doing? They're like, well, I'm still alive. And that's about it. Early 2020, it felt like momentum and there was new life into this second wave of the civil rights movement.And then it started to feel like the constant news coverage, became an energy drain. And then you heard even well meaning folks of color saying you can't look away and don't forget their names. And basically if you don't have the strength to keep watching it, like who the f**k do you think you are? I mean, they died.Kris: It's like guilting people into consuming. Especially I dislike it when people do that to Black people and like I'm Black every day, you know?Dalia: Right, right. Do I really have to keep watching something that's going to make me feel like I don't have any energy left to do anything?Kris: And to be honest, I was an organizer before I was a spiritualist. And I think that was one thing that I saw. I was like, I can't help, but feel like the way this is modeled currently, we're not modeled to model wellness and model wellness as an essential part of doing that kind of work, you know, like modeling, having inner peace as an essential part of going to war with things. Because you can't be out of balance and those energies either, or you'll just be popping off and giving your energy to everything and mental health matters.You know, mental health is deeply connected to spiritual health. We had so many ancestral practices that were for mental, spiritual, and emotional health that I feel like are coming back in a lot of these ways. I am prioritizing, like, I've seen a lot of Hoodoo apothecaries with like, anti-anxiety herbs for Black folks, you know, and different stuff like that.I mean, in my opinion, you should be in your liberation work out of love and not obligation. If you are doing what you're doing, because somebody is telling you to feel obligated to it. That's not really coming from your heart. That might not even necessarily be what you are meant to do. I do think they try to condition us to burn ourselves out so that we're not effective.And so that is a large part of what spurred me into becoming a healer and doing aura cleanses and things like that. And helping people release those things at an energy level ,receive these visions from spirit at an energy level, you know, like cultivate that self love on an energy level so that you have like a level of psychic shielding.And you know, when to use that when you're dealing with these things.Dalia: That framing is extremely helpful. Doing the work out of love. From your posts online, you seem very intersectional, but your work is focused on the liberation of queer Black folks, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're elevating the people you're serving above other people, but that's what you were called to do.Kris: Right, I center Black queer trans and intersex folks because there's just such a big question with spiritualists all the time. Is that a safe space for me personally, as a Black queer, trans and intersex person, like, am I going to have to deal with some kind of microaggressive b******t while I'm coming to you for a healing service, you know, It's not that I don't also like do service with cis people. It's not that I don't also, you know, do service with white people. I do, I have a reparations fund and I asked that any white person who benefits from my work contribute to that consistently. Like, so if you are going to take benefit from me as a white person, I need you to be a benefit to my community by sponsoring community healing services and sponsoring products for community members.But I do think it's important as a spiritualist that I do center myself that way to always make it like clear first and foremost to community members who need that heal at work the most like I'm in a safe space for you.Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that makes so much sense to me. Oh my goodness. I'm sure there's like a million other questions I'm going to of later, but...Kris: Do you want me to see if the deck has anything to say?Dalia: Yessss, let's see!Kris: Something just popped out. Dalia: Is that the one that wants to be read?Kris: Yes. So it is the birth key and for people who this is their first time seeing it, they're kind of like flashcards. So there's no books you have to sift through. When you pull a card, it's just going to tell you what it means.The birth key unveils that you can either consciously sit down or get sat down by spirit because you have a new creation to labor into existence. The only thing blocking this creation from coming to you is the fact that you are not honoring your labor and prioritizing your creative baby. Only share your energy with those who can support you in your focus and allow the universe to remove anyone else from your life.Allow spirit to use you in your co-creation process. Creation is spiritual labor surrender fully to this blessing. Focus on your focus and abundance will flow in what follows. Dalia: That might've been specifically for me. I don't know if it's for the conversation. Kris: It’s wild because it's a new moon. Yeah, it was yesterday. So that's manifestation time. So it felt like this feels kind of specific. I don't know. This might be like the perfect astrological time for you to.Dalia: Yeah, sometimes it's ridiculous how many different ways spirit tries to tell me something. And I'm still like, what do I do?I got that message a lot yesterday. And I was like, huh, I don't know. I'm still feeling lost. And now here it is.Kris: Oh, I love that. And I've been loving that with the feedback specifically for Black queer and trans folks about the deck, just like, oh my gosh, it's so straight forward. And that was my goal. I was like, I don't want this to be a super confusing deck.I want it to really just call out the energy so that you can see it like, oh yeah, likeDalia: That's so interesting. There's something about the way that it's written too. And I always, I struggled with this because I felt very disconnected from Black American culture growing up because I was raised in a very white centered church.I didn't get to engage with the music. And the church is such a big part of Black American culture. If you didn't at least get to go as a kid, I feel like you're missing out on a lot of references. There's all kinds of songs you don't know. And then so many of these songs also have messaging that bridges, spiritualism and Christianity.And so I'm always concerned that I won't get it. That something specifically for Black people might just go right over my head. But what I do find is when somebody is more connected to the diaspora in general, and your worldview is expanded because of the queerness and the focus on the trans folks and the intersex folks, that's the language that I understand. Like I maybe wouldn't have understood it if it was written by cis femme Black woman from the US who got to grow up in the church. That she might use language that I'd be like, I don't know the references, but when I've been going through the deck, I find myself asking, why do I feel like these were all written for me?Kris: Yes. And I've heard that from several Black gender expansive folks too, just like this feels really affirming with like language that I can get behind. And that was so the goal I'm so glad.Dalia: Yeah. Thank you so much for making and then modeling for everybody that there's just a lot of stuff that we're here to do, but sometimes you feel like you can't do it because you think there aren't enough people that need it.Like, you know, you could have used it, but you're like, how many of me are there out there more than you think, because people's voices are constantly being suppressed and people are still finding their way to clearly identifying who they are for themselves. Like coming out to yourself first, like you said, as a non-binary person,that is a step. You don't hear people talk about it a lot, but that's like the most important step.Kris: Exactly. And it's a process.Dalia: It doesn't happen just like that.Kris: It's a decolonization process really.Dalia: Yeah.Kris: Just decolonizing your concept of new.Dalia: Wow. That really hits. Where do we go to hear more of this? Where did we go to hear more of what Kris is putting out into the world?Kris: So I have a podcast where I do collective channelings. If it ever seems like s**t is really going to like hit the fan. I dust out my old telepathic hotline with the universe and pull out messages.And that's called The Liberation Station Podcast. you can find me at www.thespiritualabolitionist.com. There you'll find links to the podcast, to my shop, with all my products, including the deck and my art and all my different spiritual tools and the cosmic reparations fund for any white and non-Black folks who have heard this and would like to sponsor healing products and services and emergency funds for community members.All of that can be found on my website. I'm also on Instagram @thespiritualabolitionist and @kriswithakcreates. That's more so like my personal, like splash, just like putting out different creative things that I'm working on. Just for fun for. Yeah, I think that's pretty much everywhere that you can find me dropping my little gems.I try to put out different little like memes and stuff about the, how to handle the astrological weather on my Instagram.Dalia: That's what I feel like is really missing for me. A lot of times they're like a practical approach. There's so much spiritual stuff out there and sometimes it just kind of feels like you're on the receiving end of a fire hose and you're like, well, what should I do right now?Presenting it and in a meme form sounds very digestible.Kris: Yeah, I did a really, I did a really fun one with a living single scene the other day. And I was like, Max equals how I'm going to be this mercury retrograde. And it was a scene where everybody was arguing in the kitchen and Max just walked in and got handed the cookie and got handed a glass of milk and tried to reach for another cookie and just walked out.Dalia: Yeah, this is what we need. This is what we need. Understandable. Something you can internalize. Yeah, we remember Max. I keep seeing all this stuff about the Friends anniversary or reunion or whatever, andKris: you mean white Living Single?Dalia: Thank you. I'm like, oh, that thing that was a derivative form of a show that it just resonates so much more.It's funny because at the time the environment I was in, all I ever saw was Friends. And then I get to watch Living Single, as a binge, as an adult. And I'm like, wow this clearly was first.Kris: I literally can quote every single episode. I'm going to be writing an article at one day where I break down every Friend's episode.That's can you link directly back to a Living Single episode. Stay tuned. Cause that's been in the back of my head cause I grew up in a Friends household too, and I started rewatching it, but I watched living single all the time.Dalia: Yeah. That really says something for anybody who's thinking from an artistic standpoint.Oh, I can't do ... because it's so derivative. But can't you though? Because how successful was Friends? But can't you though? It really depends on who's going to be consuming it in the end.Kris: It's true. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Dalia: Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, not that we want to encourage or validate the constant theft of Black culture.Kris: I was like white folks that wasn't necessarily for you to go appropriating anything.Dalia: If anything, all what I can say is it was on brand.Kris: So true. So trueDalia: Taking, taking, taking, taking, and what I've been seeing so much lately is how both straight Black American culture and white popular culture is just constantly stealing Black, queer cultural things like left, right and center. A friend was telling me about a show that they're enjoying, but I had decided not to watch it because the news behind the scenes was basically like, hey, there were ancestors who put in a ton of time into ballroom that got passed over vs the person we selected, you know, while they're a person of color, they're very fair skinned and they have straight hair, they're not any of the things that the people who started ballroom are. And while they are queer and I'm definitely not invalidating their queerness. It's different to be queer and not engage with the culture. It's not the same.Kris: With a lot of these celebrities that come out and it's like, okay, wait, you definitely aren't having the same experience as a lot of the rest of us.And you're not in community with all these other queer people in the streets, which is where queerness really developed. Dalia: If you were you’d have known to just sit your ass down. When this opportunity came up, if you actually were an active member of the community, it never would have crossed your mind to take this spot from a trans person with dark skin, who has been doing the damn thing since before you were f*****g born. It never would have entered your consciousness.Kris: We have that issue in academia too, with folks who develop those things in academia, who aren't actually in the streets. And don't actually have respect for a lot of the dark skinned, Black, queer, and trans folks who model these accountability, things that you're now making millions off of books about I'm side eyeing somebody with the initials AMB on that one, because your publishing team is really trying to crush it.There even is a story on that with you not compensating, dark skinned, Black, queer, and trans folks whose essays are the basis for your books. And now you're the authority on transformative justice. Dalia: Alright. Cute. It's amazing when you start to hear about the layers. You suspect there's more b******t, but sometimes you don't know, cause it's not the area you function in.That's really interesting to me and I am pan, bi/pan. Pan feels more right now, but bi is what people said a million years ago because I'm old. But I would never presume that I could lead the way in helping dark skinned trans femme folks, get liberation. If there was a show that was specifically for Black trans femmes, I would never think that that was my spot.Or even if it was something that was supposed to be centered on cis gay Black men, because their lives and their experience of homophobia and transphobia is a million times higher than what I experience when it comes to homophobia because people keep assuming I'm straight. I keep having to tell people I'm not straight and I don't have to worry about somebody throwing a brick at me if I'm holding hands with someone who, as people walk by, they think they see an opposite gender couple, it's not the same. So then why would I try and push myself to the front. Kris: Centering yourself in an experience that you’re not living in the streets. Exactly. And you can so tell, but that's why I feel like it's so important that a lot of us just manifest our own s**t at this point. That's so much of why I try to get people tapped into like getting that spiritual support to manifest in your own s**t. I was a Black queer and trans person. You know,Dalia: We’re going to leave it on that note to manifesting your own s**t everybody.Kris: That's pretty much what the birth key is all about.Dalia: Oh my God. I love that.Oh, isn't Kris, just a breath of fresh air. I would love to hear what your greatest takeaways are from this episode. Supporting members on Substack have access to group posts and that is an excellent place to share. I recently decided that social media was just taking so much more away from me than it was giving and because my energy is needed elsewhere.I just decided to let it all go.Now the best way to connect with me online is on Substack.So, if you want to chat about the episode checkout daliakinsey.substack.com and consider the supporting a member option.Substack makes it super easy for you to share episodes that you love. So if you got a lot out of today's conversation and you feel like a friend of yours would too, please be sure to forward it to them.Thank you so much for joining me. I'll see you next time. Get full access to Body Liberation for All at daliakinsey.substack.com/subscribe

Diet culture is pervasive and sometimes sneaky. As we enter into the unofficial start of summer, you will no doubt start to hear words like "beach body." You'll hear about diets wrapped in packages described as "wellness" and "health." Studies have shown that people in bigger bodies often don't receive the healthcare they need because when they get in front of some healthcare professionals, their weight becomes the focus; on top of that, people of color also contend with racial bias and women face gender bias. Dalia Kinsey, author of Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation, joins us.

Episode 72. I've said it before and I will say it again, I am often profoundly changed by the impact of the conversations I have on this podcast. I still remember quotes and concepts from people I interviewed a year ago, and I still sometimes re-listen to the conversations to remind myself of the lessons I learned from them. This conversation with Dalia Kinsey, RD, LD, was extra special though. And I'm actually having a hard time putting into words why exactly that is. I think part of it is Dalia's presence, and the generosity and vulnerability that is shared, including the process from behind the scenes of this week's. Beyond that, however, Dalia's compassion for others, myself included, who have very much missed the mark with wellness, health, and lack of diversity in related fields, made this conversation all the more meaningful. Inviting Dalia on the podcast was important to me because I truly believe that moving towards true wellness and health means we must un-learn a lot of what we have been taught. Not only about what is healthy from a weight-centric model, but so much of what we have been taught about race, sexuality, and generally how so many of our systems, educational models, and structures are set up to serve white people, not persons of marginalized backgrounds. I'll admit: I have total imposter syndrome when I talk about or write about topics related to diversity. I'm afraid I'll mess things up, like say the wrong things or offending someone (my deepest fear). But I know deep down it's a privilege to be able to choose to learn about and talk about these topics or not, and I am working on continuing to choose the (typically mild) discomfort, so I can continue to learn and grow. I hope you will listen in on this conversation and hear the incredible gift that Dalia has given to the world by sharing this book with the world. I truly believe what I said, that I think this book truly benefits anyone who wants to learn about wellness and inclusion as an individual or as a healthcare provider. I hope wherever you are in your journey of learning about diversity and where we in the US and other countries have greatly missed the mark, that you will remain open, curious, and humble and continue to be open to learning more. And remember that (as I often have to remind myself) you don't need to know it all, you just need to ask question and listen. There's so much value to be gained from learning about the amazingly diverse experiences of humans and I'm incredibly grateful that Dalia shared with us via Decolonizing Wellness, but also that I was able to have this incredible conversation as well. What To Expect in This Interview: We cover the following topics: How Dalia came to doing this work, and the courage it took for Dalia to write Decolonizing Wellness, and the incredibly vulnerable process of doing soSome examples of the many ways that health and wellness spaces miss the mark when it comes to persons of diverse and/or marginalized identitiesWhat Dalia means by "When you queer anything it becomes more inclusive" (and why I've never been more convinced of this after talking to Dalia and reading Decolonizing Wellness)What Dalia wishes more people understood about these topicsAnd much more! Who is Dalia Kinsey, RD, LD? Dalia Kinsey is a queer Black Registered Dietitian, keynote speaker, the creator of the Body Liberation for All podcast, and author of Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation. On a mission to spread joy, reduce suffering, and eliminate health disparities in the LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC community, Dalia rejects diet culture and teaches people to use nutrition as a self-care and personal empowerment tool to counter the damage of systemic oppression. Dalia works at the intersection of holistic wellness and social justice, continually creating wellness tools and resources that center the most vulnerable —...

Julie and Yeli chat about Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation by Dalia Kinsey. Listen for thoughts on food as an entry point to body liberation, unconditional permission to eat, and more. Subscribe and leave a review here in just seconds. Mentioned in this episode: Decolonizing Wellness by Dalia Kinsey / Dalia Kinsey's website / Decolonization is Not a Metaphor article / Intuitive Eating / Anti-Diet / Belly of the Beast / The Body is Not an Apology / Fearing the Black Body Food peace resources: Julie Dillon RD blog / PCOS + Food Peace Free Roadmap / PCOS + Food Peace Course / Food Peace Syllabus / 6 Keys To Food Peace / My PCOS Manifesto If you're curious about what it looks like to stop pursuing weight loss, click here for some fabulous freebies that will help guide you in your journey! Do you have a complicated relationship with food? I want to help! Send your Dear Food letter to info@juliedillonrd.com.  Click here to leave me a review in iTunes and subscribe. This type of kindness helps the show continue! Find FREE food voice resources here. Thank you for supporting Find Your Food Voice!

Today we're joined by Jade Eloise. Jade self identifies as a fat Black, queer, artist, writer, and spiritual healer. Jade breaks down for us in this episode what body positivity truly means, what its roots are. Jade is a mental health and self-love advocate, but in this episode, breaks down the distinction between self-love and body positivity in its truest form.This episode we explore:The true definition of body positivitySeparating our worth from productivityIntersections of identity and creative freedomPushing back against social programing/conditioning This episode is too good to keep all to yourself. Episode Resourceswww.etsy.com/uk/shop/ArtbyBodiposipoet www.instagram.com/reclaimingbopo/Get your copy of Decolonizing Wellness A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body LiberationDalia: Hello and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I'm your host and decolonized wellness and body image coach Dalia Kinsey. I help queer folks of color heal their struggles with shame and self-acceptance through nutrition and self-care so they can live the most fierce, liberated, and joyful version of their lives.Today we're joined by Jade Eloise Jade self identifies as a fat Black, queer, artist, writer, and spiritual healer. A bunch of my favorite things there back-to-back. So, this is a fabulous conversation, Jade breaks down for us in this episode what body positivity truly means, what its roots are. Jade is a mental health and self-love advocate, but in this episode, breaks down the distinction between self-love and body positivity in its truest form. This was a really informative interview when it was originally recorded and listening to it again.So that I could transcribe it before it posted it here on sub stack. I got so much more out of some of these observations Jade shared about entrepreneurship.I've been learning so much about myself in terms of what a affirming business space looks like for me and what type of marketing feels authentic and genuine and natural for me as I continue to promote Decolonizing Wellness, I have had such a time reckoning with the difference between what success is in terms of what I wanted from this project- which is to share, to use it as another tool, to reduce the suffering of all kinds of folks with marginalized identities that have a difficult relationship with their bodies because of the systems that we've been raised in but then also having a lot of residual hang-ups from how I was taught to measure success as a child in the public school system, in the United States and in general as a working class person. So. It has definitely uncovered a lot of areas for more growth. And while I've accepted that growth as an ongoing thing, it's even something that I discussed in the book that it's really crucial for us to get comfortable with that fact that there is no finish line in order for revolutionary change to really have a chance to take hold in our lives.But still I've been finding this particular experience to be a real catalyst for growth sometimes in an uncomfortable way but listening back to Jade's take on what it really looks like to do something creative or entrepreneurial was really helpful for me. So, I hope you enjoy this episode as well.If you love it, please be sure to share it with other people. Now that the podcast is on the Substack it's so easy to forward this episode to others. Alright, let's get right into it.Body Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.Dalia:  Hello. Thank you so much for taking out the time to come on the show.Jade: Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.Dalia: When we did the livestream, I had nothing but positive feedback and there was just so much more that we could get into. But, you know, I didn't want us to make like a massive four-hour recording.So, I'm so grateful that you're able to come back again. So, we could talk about a couple of other areas. So, we already know that you're a gifted artist and that you are really leading the way and helping us reclaim body positivity. Can you give us a little bit of a rundown of where body positivity started?Then what happened to it? Like how it got hijacked and what you're working on now?Jade: Yeah. So, I think the general kind of misconception about body positivity is that it is synonymous with self-love. It's all about reclaiming your body image for yourself and learning to love yourself. And obviously self-love is so, so important.I'm a huge advocate for self-love. And I know how it affects your wellbeing. Actually, learn to love yourself. But body positivity is not in fact similar sort self-love. What if acidity is born from fat liberation movements which started to kind of back in the 20th century mid to late and it was mostly led by Black fat women and fat women in general as well, just leading the way in actually reclaiming their bodies.And just making the world know that they were tired of not having their needs as fat woman looked after of you know, medical discrimination, stopping them from getting the care that they needed of constantly being told that their bodies were wrong and needed fixing And, you know, moving into kind of the early 2000s, and then obviously the rise of social media platforms and Instagram in particular, that sort of led to this movement of Black fat women and fat women and femmes and people who lived in marginalized bodies actually saying, do you know what, we want to show people what our lives are like, that we're proud to live in our fat bodies and that we're reclaiming them for ourselves. So, then body positivity was then born into this community of people online just saying we're here. We deserve to be here. And look at us just living our best lives in our bodies exactly as they are.Which was beautiful for the time that it lasted. But with a lot of big movements, it always comes to the point where capitalism sweeps in, and corporations always try to find ways to make money out of movements. And I think, you know, that was the start of the decline of body positivity where of course, you know, we want fat people to get the bag and, you know, making their money from their movements.And that was great at the start, but actually as it started to being capitalized on, it also started being co-opted. And that was when we started to see the body positivity that we have today, where if you search body positivity online, you're mostly see slim white able-bodied women claiming self-love and claiming body positivity without knowing what body positivity really means.Dalia: That just makes so much sense. And it brings up a really big question. When it comes to people who are trying to do work, you're part of a movement. It affects you. It affects a population you belong to, but as we all know anybody who's trying to affect change in the world around them it can be very time-consuming.So, for it to be sustainable, it's really helpful if you're also able to earn an income working in that area. But how do you strike that balance of the need to survive, the fact that we all deserve to be able to take care of ourselves and live somewhat comfortably, and the desire to stop capitalism from completely running our lives.Someone made a point to me online recently that they personally didn't believe that there's any way to ethically make money because you're participating in a really broken system. But I also thought that was very convenient for them to say, because they have access to generational wealth. So, they technically can opt out of actively trying to support themselves.And so, it's like, okay. So where does that leave the rest of us who also know what it's like to live with intergenerational poverty and knowing that that is not it. Like that is not where we want to be.And you're also so limited as far as how much energy you can put into effecting larger change when you don't know where your next meal is coming from or how to keep a roof over your head from one week to the next.Jade: Yeah, I think, you know, that is a lot of problem for a lot of activists and advocates in all sorts of movements. There is no one right answer. Honestly, everyone is just doing their best to stand by their beliefs and their morals and the goals that they have. Whilst also caring for their own needs and the needs of their family.I think for me, I've realized that when I first started within self-love and then into body positivity movements. I was in that mindset of, you know, any opportunity that comes my way. I just want to grab it because I'm helping to perpetuate the message that I want to get out there whilst also looking after my financial needs.But then actually there's a beautiful woman on social media @michellehopewell over the last year. She's really inspired me to be looking at, actually am I questioning the companies and the people that I want to work with and looking into what are their morals, what are their ethics? Are they standing by the communities they claim to be standing by what are the motivations behind the campaigns and the things that they want to be running?And actually, realizing that I'm empowered to question that and by questioning that and by looking into in great depth the people that I want to work with, I can be selective about the work that I take on. And actually, you know, choose to work with communities and seek out communities that I want to work with.But of course, again, I understand that there's a huge amount of privilege within that, to be able to pick and choose who you work with. I would say to people, if you have that ability to actually turn down work, when it comes up if you feel like that there's some ethical issues surrounding that, then that is a choice you might consider it.But at the end of the day, it's all about you as an individual and what you're doing for the communities that you're trying to work for. So as long as you're standing by the morals and as long as you're conveying those within your work. I think that's the most you can do.Dalia: I think that answer's really helpful. And the nuance there, that's one of the biggest differences between kind of a white supremacy culture, very misogynistic or patriarchal way of viewing everything is that under that system, there's a definitive right, a definitive best. And then everything else is trash, right?When in reality, everything is more nuanced than that. And all of our lived experiences are so distinct. We need to give ourselves room to make individualized decisions and understand that maybe the right answer for you will shift and change over time as you have changes in other areas of your life, maybe with income, maybe with having better support, having better options.And that's okay too. It doesn't really serve us to beat ourselves up for trying to do good things worrying, am I doing good things the absolute perfect way, the right way?There is no absolute perfect or right way to do much of anything. So, yeah, I think that's a really helpful answer is to understand that there is no one answer.Jade: Yeah, I think we've lost this understanding and you know, honoring the gray area in a lot of topics there is everything isn't always yes or no, black or white, it isn't always, you know, there was a correct answer and there's a wrong answer in reality that everything in life, it's a spectrum. And, you know, we can only do our best to seek out the right answer for us.We can only do our best to stand by our communities. You know, and also, you know, the whole idea of cancel culture and, you know, you did one thing wrong and now you instantly have to be ashamed of yourself and there is no redeeming yourself from it. We're always learning. We're always growing. And I think so long as we're always striving to do our best, and it's almost, we're always willing to listen and learn and always do better than that is the best that we can do.Dalia: Yeah. And I think it's really helpful when, when your goal is to communicate with someone or to try to do something collaborative with someone and, you know, you'll have to deal with them on an ongoing basis. So, let's say. You know, it's a coworker or it's a family member or someone that, you know, you can't just cancel them and keep it moving.We really want to call people in and give people room to make mistakes and be imperfect. And at the same time, I'm all about the accountability, like you said with companies and individuals reaching out to you, being able to look and see, do you really seem sincere based on your previous behavior? And even then you're looking at a pattern of behavior, not necessarily cutting off opportunities or people based on one thing, but just the same, you know, if it feels like a hard no for you and a boundary, and it's not like this person or entity or organization has to be in your life, you know, you can dismiss them and make more room for other folks. So again, it's like, both its yes and instead of just one or the other, which is really interesting to me, I saw some, well, you're always seeing so much pushback and back and forth about the concept of cancel culture and some people really just wanting to never be held accountable for anything.But at the same time also seeing some people going over the top and asking people who are being preyed upon by a system to be held responsible for responding to the system. So again, so much more nuanced and complicated than what most people want to deal with.Yeah,Jade: absolutely. I think things like that, they always have their place, you know, we do have to hold people accountable and people should want to be held accountable as well, because again, If you're striving to be better and do better in everything you do, you cannot expect to be above reproach and actually, you know, be told what you're doing in this situation isn't okay where you can do better. If you're not open to that I would question why I would question why, and are you really aware of the privilege that you hold in these situations? You know, so it, I definitely think that it does have this place It's again, it's, it's just nuances. It's about understanding that everything is not yes or no. It's like you say yes, and.Dalia: Yeah. Speaking of everything not being yes or no. Before the call started, we were talking about the beauty and the challenges of trying to be self-sufficient in your business, living off of your talents or your gifts and it always being put out there at least to millennials and gen Z as the ultimate dream, because, you know, later in the gen X era, people were starting to have the freedom and the time to even think about, maybe my work should light me up.Maybe my work should be an extension of my life's purpose. Right. And then we lead even harder into that. And we're like, if this job doesn't light me up, I got to get out of here. It's trash and I need to be self-employed and everything's going to be great once I'm self-employed. And then once we actually get into trying to live the dream. We realize it's really challenging as well. And yeah. Can you speak to a little bit of your journey with realizing number one, that your art could be used to support a bigger social movement? And even maybe before that realizing that art was going to be a big part of your life, what did that look like for you?Jade: Oh, well, I never thought that art would be a big part of my life in terms of my personal wellbeing and my mental health it always has been because it's always been an escape for me and a way to express myself. I mean, even when I was a child I did art therapy for a time just to help me cope with the feelings and emotions I didn't necessarily understand always been quite artistic as opposed to a more logical person so in that respect, it has always been important to me, but in terms of my financial security, I never felt that art would play a part in that because it was kind of drilled into me that that was impossible.In terms of schooling and things like that, you know, it was always look for the logical career options. You know, the types of careers that people are expected to go for rather than the creative type, you know, that sort of wishy-washy career, as people seem to think it is, especially here in the UK. So, you know, I didn't think that I'd be able to do art as a career and actually it was only when I think about a year and a half ago, I started to get back into my art. And at the time I was teaching myself, I didn't have to be a perfectionist and that I could love my art for what it is rather than trying to make it something that it just wasn't. And I just had a real sense of fulfillment from just allowing myself to express myself through my art.And you know, I had people express that they actually really appreciated my art for what it was, and that was really affirming for me. Okay, well, maybe there might be more people out there who might be interested in what I do. And so, as a creative expression medium body positivity obviously is incredibly important to me.So, it just felt natural to incorporate the two. In fact, I didn't even realize I was doing it until people were saying to me, wow, you know, I haven't seen fat bodies and Black bodies depicted in this way before, or at least not as much as we should be seeing it. And I was like, wow, I didn't even realize I was doing it.Dalia: Oh, that is so, so cool. That's definitely not the answer I expected, but then when you make the point that, of course everyone had told you, like artists starve, I don't know why that didn't occur to me because I keep seeing people make it work. Maybe like over the last 10 years, I almost forgot that that's what we were all told.I wanted to be a writer since elementary school, even though I grew up in an incredibly racist public school system, even in that environment, teachers kept telling me, oh, I feel like, you know, she's going to be a writer, but all of the adults in my life are like, ha ha. Why? Because you want to starve like that doesn't even make sense.Don't listen to them. They're just blowing smoke. Don't pay attention to that and it's taken almost. 30 years to come back around to what I wanted to do in the first place, which is very, very strange. So, kudos to you for coming back so quickly before you got like deep, deep, deep, into a career that maybe didn't light you up as much. The way it's usually depicted in movies and in books is that artists have a tortured relationship with their art. And since you were using art as a self-expression and self-soothing tool, have you had any stickiness around your relationship with your art?Jade: I think in terms of art was always really personal for me.So, I'm trying to make it into a career and make it productive. Oh, I hate productivity. I hate it with a passion. So, you know, when it sort of felt like I had to do things on a schedule and I had to jump. Create create, create and create for other people rather than creating for myself. I had a moment of do I even want to do this anymore?But actually, I tried to pull myself back out of that again, and I'm not creating to a schedule. My Etsy store I had planned to update it every two months. It has been three. I still have not updated it because, you know, I haven't created what I want to create yet. And I'm just leaving space for myself to create as I want to.And not as I feel like I should, or I have to because I always find that the art that I create on a whim is art that other people appreciate the most. And the art that I love the most. So. I'm sort of sticking to that, but of course, in terms of actually being financially sustainable, that's, you know, not quite as sustainable as I would like it to be, but, you know, again, that's what we were talking about before people don't talk about those elements of creative careers in terms of, you know, living the dream, you know, if you're self-employed, then you're living the dream, but actually in reality it is very stressful and very unpredictable.And there's parts of that I absolutely love, but there's parts of it that keeps you up at night, completely stressed out of my mind. So, you know, there's two elements to it.Dalia: Yeah. I can understand now why some people, they have their passions, but they know for a fact that they want to work for someone else.They know that they want to be able to demand their paycheck when its due regardless of what has changed in the world around them, right? Like you don't get to decide whether or not you pay your employees. They know that check is coming on a schedule. And when you're self-employed, you know, there's just so many different things that can affect what your income is going to be like from one month to the next.When I was a kid, my parents always it's, it's funny because. It seems like, no matter what your parents tell you, you're probably going to be skeptical about it. Like, so you hear like some kids who are raised by very creative parents who always lived off of their own talents, pushing their kids to do the same.And they're like, I don't know about that. And then they decide I want to go work for the man and then vice versa. But my dad had a really stable job, but it was for fairly large organization. And so when they went through a period of deciding to tighten their belts and get rid of people who had more experience, so they could pay younger people half as much to do the same thing, he ended up deciding to go his own way, took his severance package and decided self-employment was a better fit for how he and my mom wanted to live.And they've always tried to stress us that the security you feel when you're waiting on that one check from your company is an illusion, like we've seen living through this global pandemic. Checks that seemed really, really dependable evaporated into thin air. And in theory, when you work for yourself and you have multiple clients or multiple contracts, you lose one, but you're not down to zero income, but at the same time, it just is a lot of mental work to accept that instability and flexibility are normal and have to be part of our lives as adults if we ever want to have any sense of peace around our income. It's such a struggle because when you do work for someone else and you get that check at the same time every month, you completely buy into the illusion that you have security.Jade: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I just, I think there is no one right answer when it comes to either working for yourself, working with someone else or finding that balance between the two. I think for me having a bit of both works really well because the stresses I get from one or alleviated by the other and vice versa.So, I worked part-time for someone else and I worked part-time for myself. And I always know, as far as I'm aware that I'm getting my monthly to check from working for someone else, but I always have my business to fall back on should that something ever go wrong with that role. And you know, when it comes to creating, it does give me more creative license. Because it means that I'm not relying on my income from my own business, you know, to get me through the month. And I think we have this sort of expectation on people when they are self-employed that, you know, you have to focus, you always see those things, you know, those like motivational quotes and things online when they're like, you know, you have to dedicate your whole time, like stop splitting your focus, just focus on the thing that you want.Go out there, grab it, manifest it, all these other things. And you know, it's like, that's great. I love that mentality, but is it realistic? Because I know the stresses that my business brings me and, you know, If I focused on it full time, I don't know if I could deal with that overwhelming stress of not knowing if I was financially, financially secure.So, I think you have to have a little bit of understanding for people, regardless of what a job is, regardless if they're working for someone else or work for themselves, it's great to have dreams and hopes and motivations, but I think realism also does play a part. And you know, not just expecting people to give up security for the sake of creative freedom, I think it is no, it's just.You can't, it's not sustainable and it's a lovely dream, but I just don't know if we can always obtain it straight away. But we can take those steps to obtaining it further in the future.Dalia: Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest gaps is that it's presented as something that we can make happen in a really narrow window of time when I think in reality it's normal for a business to be in the red and the negative for maybe the first three years. Like that used to be an understanding that that's normal, but because the internet supports the illusions that are like, zeitgeist we think that people wake up one day and realize, you know, that the hustle culture is where it's at and the magically by the end of the week, they're making millions of dollars.And I don't think that's really a thing. And it really makes sense to me, especially for people who hold identities that are being marginalized in that environment, that they're living in to understand that if you are under a lot of stress or pressure, that may be additional stress from having to work through fears around security and stability is going to be a major obstacle for you. That may be the person who wrote that post about like staying focused and manifesting your dreams. Maybe they didn't have those other factors. And that statement made perfect sense to them and their life. And you even think about how will people regard you if you're in a large body and you have brown skin and you are an artist and you're living off of that art and things, don't go quite as planned and you go to get support from some social system or safety net that exists in your country, how will you be perceived versus someone doing exactly the same thing as you and a smaller body with white skin? You know, even the reluctance to be in a position where you might need help is influenced by our identities.ItJade: really is. I mean, you know, up until.Literally this month I was on benefits. I was on called universal credit. And you know, in a lot of ways, if I wasn't on benefits, I wouldn't be able to start my business because they actually helped me to get the initial funding to do that. But that was a source of shame or embarrassment for me because I'm very much hyper aware of how people might perceive me because of my body. And I didn't want to live up to that fat, lazy stereotype of, oh, you'd rather just live on benefits rather than working hard. I think for me, because I, I am disabled. I have chronic illnesses. And also, I am, you know, I have a creative mindset, you know, I'm, I'm not someone who can be hyper-focused on manual activities my brain just doesn't work that way.And, you know, people might think that's an excuse, but really that is just how my brain works and how my body works. We're all different in those ways. So, for me, you know, working for myself has provided me with the opportunity of working in a way that suits me and looks at myself. No, I'm not interested in hustle.And I think people would be horrified, but you know, oh, you don't want to work hard. You just want to be lazy, whatever. And again, I feel that stereotype, especially living in a larger body and especially with being disabled as well, because again, I know within the working classes in the UK, there is this idea of if you're on any sort of disability benefit that you're just trying to scam the government out of money.So, there's all these stereotypes around different body types. Hustling doesn't interest me. I think we have this very odd colonialist mindset that you have to work yourself into the ground, but you have to work until you, you, your health has just deteriorated and only then are you benefiting society only then are you worthwhile.My wellbeing matters to me. I'm not interested in stressing myself out in making myself ill. So yeah, I want to work hard, but my perception of what working hard is not someone else's perception. And I think when it comes to things like being self-employed, there's this idea again, that if you're not working 60, 80 a hundred-hour weeks that you're not working hard enough. So, your failures are caused by you. It's no, that's all I can say to that. No, because we have to look after ourselves. You know, we're not just here to be placed on this earth to work. And then for that to be it, we have to live. We have to look after ourselves.We have to find purpose in whatever way it works for us. So, hustle is great if someone's, if someone loves hustling absolutely go for it. Do that thing. For me, I want to look after myself. I want to enjoy whatever it is that I do in all capacities. And often that just means slowing down.Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that's such a, that is a whole word like that is such a crucial message.And what's so funny is when you really look at how people perform at their peak, following your body signals and knowing when to slow down and knowing when you're just not feeling it, you know, you sit down to write something, you sit down to record something, and your energy is not there. If you make yourself sit there for eight hours, it doesn't get any better.Sometimes what you need to do to get the best product is to leave. Stop what you're doing. Go do something different. Do something that activates a different part of your consciousness. Relax. Sometimes you find, when you sit down to do something that you thought you'd been putting off, you'd actually been ruminating on it in a positive way, in the back of your mind all week.And then when you sat down all the information you have been kind of letting simmer comes back to the surface. So sometimes even, or concepts of what is working, it doesn't fit the reality of the situation. You don't have to be working in a way that someone walking by would be able to validate, you know, if you have your own creative process and you honor that and you're willing to respect yourself enough to tailor your life to what works for you. Then your productivity may actually surprise you like how much better your productivity is when you respect your body.Jade: Yeah. And I also think it's really important to have a really strong sense of self and to work on understanding of self, because a lot of people, again, will look at you and tell you things about yourself.You know, you're not working hard enough, you're not working in the right way, but if you understand yourself, you can acknowledge those times when you are actually, you know, being productive without being physically productive.And also knowing the ways that you work might be different to other people and that those ways are completely valid. So, you know, a lot of things, when I was younger things that people would say, speak of me, quite negative things about the way I worked. But for instance saying that I'm, you know, flaky or I don't commit to certain projects and I felt that for a long time and I am still working through those feelings now, but what I recognize now is those things that might make someone consider me to be flaky or to not commit are also the things that on new projects get me to absolutely push through and bring ideas together and pull them into something and, you know, birth them into the world in a way that I wouldn't have been able to perceive if I didn't have those qualities, they allow me to multitask.They gave me the energy and the drive. You know, when I have short deadlines, I am never more committed when I have a short deadline, because that's how my mindset works. So, we all work in different ways and all those ways are completely valid. And actually, when it comes to then collaborating on projects, you know, you get to work with people who have work in different ways to you and you all compliment each other.So just because you don't work in the same way that someone else does doesn't mean that you're not valid, actually it makes you an amazing team member and an amazing contributor once you know what those qualities are and how to make them work for you for the better.Dalia: That's the key is knowing what those qualities are.And I appreciate that you acknowledge that maybe you've been trained to devalue working style or your creativity, maybe that is not just something you're going to be able to wake up and say, oh, now I know that this is valid. Maybe it will be a process. Maybe you'll really have to push to work through it.And with some of the obstacles, we have mindset obstacles from childhood. This may be something we're always working through. You know, you kind of go in cycles, you go through phases where you understand your worthiness and then something rocks you and you take a couple steps back and then a couple of steps forward.That's natural too. Thinking we're going to magically erase everything that conditioning has done to us up until now isn't really realistic. And I think that also ties back into how there's no nuance in a lot of the bod pos things we see out there that you're going to erase all of your conditioning and love yourself completely every single day and want all these pictures of yourself from strange angles and want to share them with the world. Like that’s just, just not the reality for most people. It may not even be the reality for the people posting those photos and some people. And I don't say this to be a hater, but some people aren't even posting images that they haven't tampered with.So that's something to consider too, just because someone puts out an image and they use all the right hashtags and it looks like, oh, they're revealing something that it's brave of them to show like that one roll. That doesn't mean there was no airbrushing in other areas. Everything could be an illusion, right.And whatever that person is comfortable with, that's fine. But at the same time, if we internalize that I have to be at this point where I've just going to take pictures from all these angles and post them and feel great about it not understanding that that person curated that image too, that puts you in a really tough spot.And you will end up being too hard on yourself as you try and work toward greater self-acceptance.Jade: Yeah. And you know, like in terms of social media it’s a highlight reel, regardless of the types of content that people are posting, you know, whether it be body positivity and all the different forms of what people perceive as body positivity.People are posting the highlights of their journey with their bodies and with the, you know, overcoming conditioning they don't share those moments when they've actually, you know, reverted to an old mindset, or they're still trying to overcome old patterns because it doesn't fit into the image of ourselves that we've curated online. And actually, this idea that we overcome conditioning, but we're still living in that conditioning. It is constantly being forced at us all the time. So, I think there's no way to overcome the conditioning all we're doing is constantly pushing back against it and finding ways to rewrite the narrative for ourselves and for others in particular within body positivity.And I think, again, that's another mistake that people make in this comparison to body positivity and self-love because if I was gonna compare body positivity to anything, which I don't like to do, but if I was going to, it would be body neutrality. Body positivity is the understanding that all bodies are equal and deserve to be treated equitably within our society.There is no good or bad within body positivity. It's not about creating a beauty ideal, in which all bodies are accepted. What it's actually about is removing the body ideal understanding that we shouldn't be hierarchically categorizing bodies. Bodies are just bodies. You know, they don't define us, and we can't put moral value on them.And I think body neutrality is far more important in that sense than self-love because it's understanding that you don't have to look at yourself every morning and go, oh my God, I love myself. Let me take a selfie immediately from all these different angles. It's not actually saying I am neither here nor there about my body, because I'm know that I'm more than my body.I am most important. And people might perceive things about me because of my body but as long as I understand how I perceive my body is enough, that is what matters. And as long as I am carving out space, for my body to be seen and heard and valued for exactly what it is and as long as I'm searching for equal treatment within any space that I take up, that is what's important.So, I think, you know, even if we take away the fact that body positivity has been co-opted, the fact that it's being compared to self-love again, is really problematic in that sense of making people feel like they have to love themselves in order to be body positive. Cause they don't.Dalia: That's such a helpful reframe and that makes so much more sense with the reality of our lives and the fact that we're still in environments that are hostile to our bodies. So pushing back is the goal like, and that is as far as it's probably going to get for a while and seeing the ways in which corporations and other people want to use our sense of self to commodify us is really helpful when it comes to understanding that it's most important that we have a strong relationship with our sense of self and knowing that we are more than our body and more than these individual things that marketers want us to focus on correcting and taking your body back and really living in it on your own terms. It's a vehicle for you to do all the things that you're on this planet to do it isn't a self-improvement project to spend all your days on.Jade: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I know that's a concept that when I'm talking to people about body positivity, I often try to get them to understand that your body is a vessel. It is a vehicle for navigating with the world, for communicating with the world.It is not the be-all and end-all of who and what you are. We place so much worth on aesthetics of a body when the ascetics of the body are the least important, part of all the functions that it has for us. And sure, I think that's a deeper conversation that doesn't really go into body positivity, but in terms of understanding self-worth and having a strong sense of self, it is a really important concept to grasp.Because on days when I am not happy with my body because I understand that it doesn't fit into these Eurocentric beauty ideas that we have and that, you know, for the rest of my life, I have to deal with the fact that maybe we'll never get to a point within society in my lifetime where my body is accepted. But what I can do for myself is understand that regardless of what society is telling me about my body and about my worth because of my body, I can push back against that because I understand deeper than that, that the conditioning that we are facing does not define us.Dalia: Yeah, that's extremely helpful when it comes to work. In online spaces, knowing that it's a highlight reel and also knowing that people are in different stages of their journey toward understanding the things that you're teaching about, how do you navigate creating boundaries and creating safer spaces for the people in your community?Jade: I think the first thing is that I don't engage in any kind of troll like behavior. I used to, I used to feel like because of the privilege that my body holds in certain senses I want it to have the capacity to be able to speak for those who might not be able to have the resources and tools to speak for themselves in these situations and actually try and reeducate people wherever possible in whatever way they were coming at me.So, when I used to have people comment on the things that I was doing online or engaged with members of my community, under my posts, I would always try and reeducate and engage in conversation. But I realized that there are people who don't want to engage in these conversations they're either so wrapped up in the conditioning that they've faced, that their self-hatred is pouring outwards onto other people or, they really do have a deep disdain for my communities. That's, that's none of my business, you know, if, if that is how they want to present themselves to the world, I don't need to engage with that. So, I've set a really strong boundary in that sense of actually saying it's not my responsibility to engage with that person.So, I don't at all. I block any comments that come up, which are clearly antagonistic. And I focus my energy on engaging with the people who want to be there and who are searching for better for themselves. And it's also not just to protect me, but it's to protect anyone who comes onto my page because they don't need to be subject to the nasty, cruel comments that people feel the need to express.So that's sort of a hard boundary that I have recently had set in the last year, kind of a firm for myself that that's not my business to be doing that. And then in terms of, you know, sometimes I don't have the tools and resources to help people through something because I'm working for it myself.And often you'll find in community spaces that you're always triggering things for each other areas of your life that need healing, which is wonderful and it's really important for continued self-growth and self-development. But also, you have the hold space to yourself first. So, in those instances, I'll often say to people, I really appreciate you coming to me with this.Unfortunately, I can't help you with this right now, but you know, please continue to be in this space and it's not because I don't want to be there for you in this moment. It's just that I don't have the resources myself to do that.Dalia: That's really helpful knowing that you have to hold space for yourself first and knowing that that is the nature of community, is that we continually hold up mirrors to other people and trigger growth in them, and sometimes it doesn't feel great. So that can make being in community a challenge, but it really is a place where so much healing happens, but where I've seen it go kind of off the rails is where you don't have someone who's leading the conversation who can help guide the community with community agreements, community standards, like what we don't entertain here, what the space is not for.I've seen a lot of people lately, especially who say they want to grow. And I believe they believe they want to grow, but they're going to all the wrong places, asking for people to guide them when there are so many people who have created resources meant for those folks who are on that one-on-one level stuff with their anti-racism, with their body liberation, with their fat liberation.There are places dedicated to that. There are resources dedicated to that. And when you jump into a community where people have gotten beyond the concept of, oh, are these types of humans worthy of care and respect? That's not the place for you to show up asking, like, but are you sure though? Because I heard that bodies have to be this one way to be worthy of belonging and respect.Jade: Yeah. And I think, you know, I would hope, expect, I guess, from any community members that show up in my space, that they have an understanding of that. And obviously that's not always the case. And depending on what's been going on for me and how many instances I've had of people maybe overstepping their boundaries in certain spaces.I do have time to talk to people and just say, you know, maybe it's good for you to go away and do some research on this before you come back into this community space, because we've moved beyond this conversation. Sometimes I don't have the kind of emotional freedom and I don't have the emotional capacity to be able to have those conversations.In which case I just step away from it. Because again, I, I created this space for myself first for my own self-healing first, and then it moved beyond that and it moved into advocacy, but I will never put my mental health into detriment because of dealing with other people. But again, that's not to say that people can't get things wrong sometimes, which is why I always try and give people the benefit of the doubt.But, you know, if someone's continuing to show up into a space and they've been told multiple times, we're not having this conversation and they continue to have that conversation. Yeah, I just, you know, I have, I have a limit when it comes to that.Dalia: That's a good model for the rest of us, that it is okay and crucial if you want to do advocacy work and if you want to lead community spaces to prioritize your own wellbeing. Because the work is not sustainable without that.Jade: Yeah. And I would expect. Or hope for that for anyone sharing the body positivity space and the online space. I think we do have to be looking after our mental health, because it can become overwhelming.We can expect too much from ourselves. We can expect perfection from ourselves. And I think when it gets to that point of expecting perfection from ourselves, I've seen instances where people start to create another false sense of identity where they don't even realize when they might be causing problems and being problematic within the communities that they are trying to be a voice of reason within.So, checking back in with yourself and reconnecting with yourself and understanding, you know, maybe I don't have the right words, the right tools for this situation, because we're never going to be completely perfect, we're always learning. I don't know everything about body positivity because I wasn't around for its conception.I've had to learn and research all the things that I know about it as a community member and grow with it over time. So, when there are instances where I don't know things, either I go out of my way to research it and bring back the information that I found or I just have to turn around and say, I don't know.I really don't know. I need to do this work for myself before I can bring you into this space with me. And you do see instances of people in different communities, not just body positivity where that's not being done, because we trick ourselves into this thinking, we have to be perfect. And we have to know everything because this expectation has been placed upon us.It's not, it's just not realistic. And I think reconnecting with yourself and holding space for yourself helps to prevent that as much as possible. And also, then being open to accountability and being open to being told, maybe you're wrong in this instance is also important for keeping our privilege in check and for making sure that we're doing the work that we want to be doing rather than what we think we're doing.Dalia: Yes, do you have any practices that you can share that are good for restoring your sense of being grounded? Like after you've had a negative interaction with somebody onlineJade: For me, I, I have lots of little silly sort of practices that I do because I think they're so human that they sort of, they just make sense to me.They might not make sense from people, but little things. Like whenever I pass a mirror, I always make sure to make a face at myself. And this seems like such an odd thing when I tell this to people. It takes away the seriousness of all connection mural reflection, because I don't think it's normal for us to see our reflection as much as we do.It's not really. Ingrained within us to be staring at mirrors all the time or seeing pictures of ourselves all the time. So, whenever I see my reflection, I'll just pull a face or a smile at myself. Just little things like that, that creates a positive interaction with my reflection and grounds me within myself to be like, whatever stresses are going on, whatever kind of negative interactions that I've had that might make me feel negatively about my self-worth or about my body they're sort of irrelevant on the grand scheme of things. That one interaction does not define me, does not define my work. And so just doing little small things like that to connect with myself really make a big difference. And then as kind of a spiritual healer for me doing things like meditation and doing things like you can visualize body scans and connecting with your body and just feeling at home in your own skin.Those sorts of things are really great for just feeling grounded within yourself. And also, being outside whenever possible, obviously is really helpful as well, just for connecting with the world on a wider scale, rather than focusing on the internet, because it is still a very small community, even though it seems like it connects us to everything, it can become a bit of an echo chamber.So, stepping outside of that and back into the real world is definitely, really helpful as well.Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that really resonates with the body scans. Do you guide people through those or is it, can you show us how to do that?Jade: It's a little bit of a longer process that I'd be able to share with you right now.But in terms of I was running meditation classes and it will be something that I'm doing again. But you can find body scans and guided meditation during a body scan online. Or if you just search on YouTube, there's lots of wonderful ones. When it comes to meditation, I think the voice is the most important.So, finding a voice that resonates with you and that you feel comfortable and secure with, because it is mostly auditory led. So, you have to find one that works for you. Often people find one meditation, don't connect with it and then think they hate meditation. But in reality, it's just, they haven't connected with the right person.So just keep searching for one that works for you or write your own, just focus on connecting with the body, the sensations that are around you. I like to imagine my energy coming together as a ball of light in my chest, and then that light moving to different areas of my body and just allowing myself to feel that, connecting with the ground, those sorts of things.They just help to center you. And help you see your body as more than its aesthetics and actually understanding all the things that our body does for us on a day-to-day basis. And that's, you know, as someone with chronic illnesses, it can be difficult to appreciate your body when you feel like it's almost working against you.But those little moments of connecting back with myself really helped me to have appreciation for all the things that my body does do as opposed to kind of berating it for the things that it doesn't do.Dalia: That's really helpful. Where do people keep up with you so that they can be in touch when you start offering those again?Jade: So, I do have a Facebook page it's called a Safe Space to Grow. There hasn't been much on there for a few months. Cause we were talking about before we started I kind of needed to create space for myself to focus on certain projects. So that has taken a back seat to now. I do also share sort of mini meditations to my Instagram page @bodiposipoet. I'm hoping to start showing them short.Really short one-minute snippets as well to TikTok at some point, just to add a little bit of sort of body positivity and grounding into that space as well, because it can be a little bit chaotic at times.Dalia: Yeah, absolutely. Just a few people who've done that really creatively since, you know, the video just starts over and over again, the way they did it, it feels like a full meditation, like as long as you want it to be because of where starts over. So, I love that idea. We'll be looking out for that. Are you, is it the same handle on TikTok?Jade: Yes. It's actually @artbybodiposipoet, because I was originally using it for my artwork and will continue to use it for that purpose as well. But yeah, I'm sure if anyone wants to find it, they should be able to.Dalia: Wonderful, thank you so much for coming on. I'll definitely have the links to your Etsy store and all of those other places.Jade: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I love that every time we talk, there's always something new and different that comes out of the conversation. So, yeah, I've loved it. Thank you so much.Okay. I know it wasn't just me. Was that, or was that not just packed full of gems? Jade really dropped a lot of knowledge on us in this episode. Be sure to look for Jade on TikTok and on Etsy. I am really pulling back with social media these days thinking about how to use my energy in the most effective way for all of the things that I want to do so you probably won't find me on social media.But you will be able to find me in the comments on Substack. I'm working on building community there, doing coaching asynchronously there because that's a way to make myself accessible to a lot more people at once. So, I hope you will check out that option that is for the supporting members. Of the show and the body liberation for all community in general.I will have links below in the show notes to give you more details about that. If you feel called to check it out. Thank you so much for joining me. I will talk to you next time. Get full access to Body Liberation for All at daliakinsey.substack.com/subscribe

Dalia Kinsey joins The Body Myth for a conversation about looking at the body in a holistic way, how health intersects with racial identity in the US, systemic LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC  oppression and how allies in a lot of spaces tend to take center stage, why we don't need to demonize any body size, and how as a culture we spend so much time trying to control our bodies instead of using our bodies to do the things we want. Also in this episode: -ideas for reconnecting to your body -a closer look at the health at every size and fat liberation movements -the effect of generational trauma on health  Dalia Kinsey is a queer Black Registered Dietitian, keynote speaker, the creator of the Body Liberation for All podcast, and author of Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation. On a mission to spread joy, reduce suffering, and eliminate health disparities in the LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC community, Dalia rejects diet culture and teaches people to use nutrition as a self-care and personal empowerment tool to counter the damage of systemic oppression.   Dalia's work can be found at https://www.daliakinsey.com/ Listeners can register for a chance to win a free copy of the book here https://sendfox.com/lp/199d4p They can follow her on Substack to read articles she has written and listen to new episodes of her podcast https://daliakinsey.substack.com   Ronit is a writer, teacher, and mom who has taught elementary school through high school and whose writing has been featured in The Atlantic, The Rumpus, Salon, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Writer's Digest, Scary Mommy, American Literary Review, and elsewhere. Her memoir WHEN SHE COMES BACK about her body image struggles and the loss of her mother to the guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was named Finalist in both the 2021 Best Book Awards and the 2021 Book of the Year Award and a 2021 Best True Crime Book by Book Riot. Her short story collection HOME IS A MADE-UP PLACE won Hidden River Arts' 2020 Eludia Award and will be published in 2022. She is also host and producer of the podcasts And Then Everything Changed and Let's Talk Memoir. More about Ronit: https://ronitplank.com Have a body image story you'd like Ronit to read on air or want to take the Your Body and the World survey? Follow this link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScZiXP1FklUkWaYg4T6IAqFKDRp6OIvef4be8SRHVaaWt044w/viewform Sign up for monthly podcast and writing updates:   Follow Ronit: https://www.instagram.com/ronitplank/ https://twitter.com/RonitPlank https://www.facebook.com/RonitPlank Photo credit: Baran Lotfollahi on Unsplash Theme music: The Lighthouse by Sounds Like Sander 

Today's episode is about being criticized for our work and actions! Your hosts — and fairy godmothers in Tapping — Collette Schildkraut and Lee Uehara, got today's Tap-Along idea from their friend, Dalia Kinsey, RD, LD, who just wrote the new book, Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape The Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation. It's all about self-esteem today, mommas! Also, next week, you'll want to attend the Spring Energy Event: THE EFT Tapping + Wellness Retreat from Jondi Whitis, EFT Tapping Master Trainer. Lee will be there, so get your ticket -- so affordable -- and hang with her and everyone else. And, the line-up of speakers is NOT to be missed! And, BTW, Lee and Collette are on CLUBHOUSE, the new audio drop-in app! Click HERE to join them! Literally, you can log in and drop in to meet with them LIVE each Wednesday at 11:00 a.m. EST. (Sometimes they get there at 11:30am or 12:00pm, but those are rare times.) They talk about all things EFT Tapping, have guests at times — and do their famous Tap-Alongs! Join them and ask to Tap on whatever is on your mind. While the pandemic is still going on, Collette and Lee haven't been able to meet up in person to record more episodes just yet. So they thought this would be the perfect temporary solution. So again, go join them over at Clubhouse. Just click HERE to join their club, The EFT Tapping Club! You can always visit them at www.TappingLikeAMother.com, or on Instagram, or you can email them: info@tappinglikeamother.com. They'd love to hear from you!

Dalia Kinsey is a non-binary Queer POC who joins us this week to discuss Dalia's book: Decolonizing Wellness: A Qtbipoc-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation.  Join us as we discuss a host of topics both financial and well-being that can help all of us thrive.  Remember to subscribe to the weekly show notes newsletter for a chance to win a copy of Dalia's book.  For the resources and to connect with our guests, get the show notes at: https://queermoneypodcast.com/subscribe

Today's podcast take over episode we are hearing from Dalia. (No pronouns non binary) An advocate for the QTBIPOC community and more. This episode is an experience not just a valuable episode. This is an episode you can come back often as a meditative retreat too. If this is a taste of the value the book will be - what a gift that will be. In Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation, registered dietitian and nutritionist Dalia Kinsey will help readers to improve their health without restriction, eliminate stress around food and eating, and turn food into a source of pleasure instead of shame. A road map to body acceptance and self-care for queer people of color, Decolonizing Wellness is filled with practical eating practices, journal prompts, affirmations, and mindfulness tools. Ultimately, decolonizing nutrition is essential not only to our personal well-being but to our community's well-being and to the possibility of greater social transformation. https://www.daliakinsey.com/book (Here is the link to purchase book today! ) https://www.daliakinsey.com/about (More about Dalia.) https://www.daliakinsey.com/privatecoaching (Work with Dalia.) Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/zimpzon/calm (https://uppbeat.io/t/zimpzon/calm) License code: C8RVVURUZSRRZXIP

Our next guest is not only the author of a book we both can't wait to read - Decolonizing Wellness - but also talks specifically to those individuals who are at the intersection of BIPOC and LGBTQ identities. When you think about bodies, beauty, and self-care, that's often a group that gets lost, not only in popular consciousness but also in media portrayals of what is considered desirable or attractive. And, when you're struggling to be seen, or fit in, or even survive - this can be devastating. This was yet again one of those conversations that we didn't want to end, and each of us walked away with different ways to think about not only our own bodies, but what we put in them, how we interact with those around us with regard to wellness - especially kids, and ways in which we can better support and understand the struggle of marginalized individuals when it comes to preconceived notions of health and beauty. Have questions, comments, or concerns? Email us at hello@dearwhitewomen.com What to listen for: How cisgender, heteronomative, Eurocentric standards of beauty that we see in mass media add to the body image concerns of queer people Additional challenges to body positivity when it comes to people who are both BIPOC and LGBTQ+ Knowing and listening to our own bodies better, including what we put into them Kids, nutrition, and diet culture About Dalia: Dalia Kinsey is a Registered Dietitian and Inclusive Wellness coach with over 10 years of experience working at the intersection of holistic wellness and social justice in public and private sectors. Dalia rejects diet culture and teaches people to use nutrition as a self-care and personal empowerment tool to counter the damage of systemic oppression. On a mission to spread joy, reduce suffering, and eliminate health disparities in the LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC community, Dalia leverages years of experience creating safer spaces for clients to help teams build communication skills that create a solid foundation for inclusion and belonging. Host of the Body Liberation for All podcast and author of Decolonizing Wellness: How to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation; A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Self-Love, Dalia continually creates wellness tools and resources that center the most vulnerable, individuals that hold multiple marginalized identities. Dalia's work can be found at https://www.daliakinsey.com/ Connect with Dalia: Instagram    Where to order your copy of Dear White Women: Let's Get (Un)comfortable Talking About Racism: https://thecollectivebook.studio/dear-white-women Like what you hear?  Don't miss another episode and subscribe! Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter – and even more opinions and resources if you join our email list.    

We live under so much stress and exhaustion because of systemic oppression and racism. Up until 2020 and the outspoken racial tension in the U.S.A., everybody was telling us this wasn't real. That was a lie.  What's worst, is when you'd seek out safe spaces to heal only to encounter that same feeling of oppression. Is decolonizing wellness the answer?Dalia Kinsey and author of the upcoming book, Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation, and this week's guest thinks it will help. But does it mean to decolonize wellness? And what does that look like? Join us in an open discussion on how we can begin to heal the wellness space and reclaim what is ours from a cultural and indigenous perspective. Show notes:  https://hellawellwithdanielle.com/podcast/decolonizing-wellness/ ‎Be sure to also join the Hella Well With Danielle newsletter for my biggest ah-ha moments from each episode and special announcements. Sign up at http://hellawellwithdanielle.com/join-wellness-revolution/.Thanks so much for listening! If you like this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review. 

I want to deep dive into a subject that is near and dear to my heart. It's something that I have made a priority to heal and something that I see come up with a lot of the people I work with. It's self image, which is ultimately the way you think and feel about yourself. Your self image runs everything for your life. It determines how confident you are to show up in what you do or what you want to do in the world. It can hinder you from stepping into that next higher version or yourself and stop you from creating deep, meaningful connections with people. It's only been during the past few years that I've felt a true healing within myself, and have been able to see myself for who I really am. In this episode, I talk about how our self image can get damaged and what we can do to fix it. Follow me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sara.fennell/

I want to deep dive into a subject that is near and dear to my heart. It's something that I have made a priority to heal and something that I see come up with a lot of the people I work with. It's self image, which is ultimately the way you think and feel about yourself. Your self image runs everything for your life. It determines how confident you are to show up in what you do or what you want to do in the world. It can hinder you from stepping into that next higher version or yourself and stop you from creating deep, meaningful connections with people. It's only been during the past few years that I've felt a true healing within myself, and have been able to see myself for who I really am. In this episode, I talk about how our self image can get damaged and what we can do to fix it. Follow me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sara.fennell/