Podcasts about lukumi

Dayme Arocena is an Afro-Cuban jazz vocalist, composer, arranger choir director and band leader. Born and raised in Havana, Dayme Arocena combined her intensive conservtoire training with an upbringing grounded in Cuba's own musical foundations. In 2019 she released Sonocardiogram on the Brownswood label, celebrating the rich elements of Afro Cuban culture and Lukumi spirituality, the album was met with resounding critical applause. Her latest project is called Alchemy and is set for release in February of 2024. IG: @DaymeArocena

Ben Stimpson (He/They/Them) is a therapist, lecturer, student, and spiritual director. Ben has developed courses on a variety of topics, including ancestor veneration, the power of story, and folklore. When not working with clients or writing, Ben is engaged with his areas of study: religious studies, medieval and classical studies, folklore, and spirituality. Ben's own personal spiritual background includes Hinduism, NeoPaganism, Lukumi, Espiritismo, Druidry and folk tradition. www.benstimpson.com YT: @BenStimpsonAuthor IG: @BenStimpsonAuthor FB: fb.com/BenStimpsonAuthor --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/cucinaaurora/support

Susun Weed answers 90 minutes of herbal health questions followed by a 30 minute interview Intuitive Consultant Wendy Van Allen   Wendy Van Allen is a graduate of One Spirit Learning Alliance's Seminary and Interspiritual Counseling program. She received two bachelor's degrees from Rutgers University, and is graduating with a Master's in Clinical Counseling from Saint Bonaventure University, Olean, NY, in August, 2023. Wendy is a certified Intuitive Consultant from the Holistic Studies Institute, New York, NY, and teaches and serves students at two progressive seminary programs. Wendy's spiritual traditions are Earth-based and include initiation and practice of Wicca, Lukumi, and Spiritism. She was initiated as a Green Witch with Susun in 1996 and has held a life-long interest and practice of natural magic, medicine, and spirituality. As a former archaeologist, she has a strong interest in the intersection of culture, spirituality, religion, evolving human consciousness, social justice and environmental concerns. Wendy lives in Kingston, New York, and offers private interspiritual counseling, classes and workshops from her home, Soul Blossom Center. She is the author of Relighting the Cauldron: Embracing Nature Spirituality for the Modern World, published by Llewellyn's Worldwide Publications in early 2023.

Discussing some norms that are upheld among the Orisha devotees in the Lukumi faith based system --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/the-crypto-wonder-podcast/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/the-crypto-wonder-podcast/support

On this episode I speak on spiritual cauldrens and nfumbe cauldrens and their different meanings and uses. Also speak on syncrinized saints of  Lukumi, Palo and Catholisizm sticks__bones. instagram702-814-3140ngangulero7 tiktoksticksandbones7@gmail.com

Have these past several years worn you down? Do you feel like your light has gone out?  I know the feeling.  But it's not too late to relight the cauldron that connects you to Mother Earth. To feel a new flame burning within. This is the subject on the ESS podcast this week with my guest, Rev. Wendy Van Allen with her new book, Relighting the Cauldron. As we discuss, we are coming into a new paradigm, your light is needed.  Time to relight your flame.  This episode is being brought to you by Forecast Salon located in Homewood Alabama. Forecast is a hair salon on a mission to shape a movement in the beauty industry focusing on education, fashion, and creativity. Forecast strives to train stylists with the latest in education to provide their guests with the latest trends. Follow them on Instagram @forecastsalon or find them online at https://www.forecastsalon.com/ As this podcast goes to air where are we in the cosmos?  We are in the waning phase of the moon with a New Moon in Pisces coming in on Monday. Pisces… the deep spiritual energy. I see this new moon as being quite positive. Jupiter and Neptune, co-rulers, are both in their home sign.  This offers a strong include with significant support. We also have some transits with Saturn and Aquarius.  This is about passion..  higher purpose and finding spiritual reasons for your dreams and desires. New moons are about new beginnings.  Saturn (reality) is right there, strongly suggesting you can make it happen. The New Moon in Pisces is a good time to commit to personal goals that express positive energies. These include taking a leap of faith, accepting imperfections in ourselves and in others as a different kind of “perfection,” starting a project that requires imagination and visualization skills, consciously putting time aside for peaceful and rejuvenating activities, and sharing a dream with another. With this potent and powerful Pisces energy, we have the chance to make important changes in our lives.So be sure to take some time and set intentions that inspire you as we start to awaken out of winter and open up to Spring. All these cosmic forces and energy alignments, I talk about on my energy focus for the week which you can find live on Sunday nights on Instagram and FB. We talk about what's going on, we align our energy, set intentions for the week and I  pull the Tarot cards for guidance .join me or catch the replay. As we move through these comic transitions, now is the time to clean up your energy with an energy-clearing session.  Schedule one in person or online. When we work with the energy body, it helps to release the old patterns and all that old stuff.  Links My  Empowered Spirit Private Mentoring Program. Has a spot open now… just for you. My students are saying they are understanding their energy so much better... they aren't taking on other people's energy, their intuition is growing, they aren't holding on to old emotions and even feeling happier in their lives Schedule a Spiritual Upgrade Breakthrough call with me and let's talk about how my programs can help you. In today's episode, I wanted to expand on some ideas that we talked about a few episodes ago…. witches and cauldrons.  And how Limited beliefs about each of these tend to isolate people. Witches, as we have talked about, are about the empowered women or men who is connected to Mother Earth, and the cosmos, likes rituals and ceremonies, and believes in the faith of their Spirit. Cauldrons.. ok... I confess...  I had a limited belief in this.  I thought a cauldron was only a black kettle that witches used to mix their potions for their rituals.  Well.. yes, it is that but it is so much more..  A Cauldron represents a cross-cultural symbol, as my guest today on the podcast,  Rev Wendy Van Allen, shares in her book, Relighting the Cauldron. She shares with us her ideas and how it begins with each individual and how that individual brings forward its beliefs in relation to the collective.  We talk about the darken cauldron, Shaman inheritance and the Aquarian Age, ancestor reverence, religion, Spirit, energy modalities, and rebuilding the bridge to close the gap on patriarchy, sexism, racism, paganism, and being a part of a new paradigm that is coming forward. Rev. Wendy Van Allen is an ordained Interspiritual Minister and counselor and a practicing Spiritist. As a Priestess of both the Lukumi and Wiccan traditions, she is a longtime practitioner of Nature Spirituality. She has a private nature-based spiritual counseling practice and teaching center in New York State. Mother Earth's Cauldron flame has gone out as the climate crisis and resulting social chaos have worsened.  But it's not too late. In her book, Relighting the Cauldron, she confronts this problem and its origins, focusing on the spiritual disconnect we have between ourselves and our natural world. With the help of ten other voices from diverse, nature-centered practices, she helps you discover your spiritual center, better recognize humanity's interdependence with itself and other species, and live in harmony with the environment. Her book, Relighting the Cauldron, will help you learn to celebrate your ancestors, seek spirit guidance, journey to the astral plane, implement energy healing techniques, and lead a sustainable lifestyle. Website  Enhancing your physical and spiritual connection to the earth can help create a more awakened humanity. It is time to relight Mother Earth's Cauldron and save the planet. Focusing on the relationship we have with ourselves is the place to begin. Connecting with nature, and finding ways to live in harmony will help to relight this fire. Yes, It is about creating community in the kind of world we want to live in and leave behind. Witch or not, it's time to relight the flame within as we connect deeply with Mother Earth. Reach out to Wendy for her book, Relighting the Cauldron. Thanks for listening. To your Spirit, Terri PS... Need help finding that fire within, schedule a call, and let's figure out how to spark that light within once again. Follow Terri on Instagram Episode Credits: Sound Engineer: Laarni Andres https://www.facebook.com/laarni.andres.7

Brief summary of episode:Dr. Kokahvah Zauditu-Selassie is a retired Professor of English at Coppin State University in the Humanities Department. She earned her Doctorate in the Humanities from Clark Atlanta University. She is the author of “I Got a Home in Dat Rock: Memory, Orisa, and Yoruba Spiritual Identity in African American Literature” in Orisa: Yoruba Gods and Spiritual Identity in Africa and the Diaspora, as well as several journal articles including, “Women Who Know Things: African Epistemologies, Ecocriticism, and Female Spiritual Authority in the Novels of Toni Morrison, Dancing Between Two Realms: Sacred Resistance and Remembrance in African American Culture. She is also the author of an award-winning book of critical essays titled, African Spiritual Traditions in the Novels of Toni Morrison a 2009 publication of the University Press of Florida. Her research focuses on highlighting ritual acts of memory and resistance. A priest of Obàtálá in the Lukumi Yoruba tradition, she is a descendant of a matrilineal group of Vodun believers from New Orleans, Louisiana. Currently she is studying the traditions of Osain in the Lukumi system and in other global African cultures, as well as indigenous systems in the Americas. Her current publication is a novel titled, The Second Line. She can be found on social media at @comptonauthor. The Truth In This ArtThe Truth In This Art is a podcast interview series supporting vibrancy and development of Baltimore & beyond's arts and culture. Mentioned in this episode:Dr. Kokahvah Zauditu-SelassiePHOTO CREDIT: SCHAUN CHAMPIONTo find more amazing stories from the artist and entrepreneurial scenes in & around Baltimore, check out my episode directory. Stay in TouchNewsletter sign-upSupport my podcastShareable link to episode ★ Support this podcast ★

Alafia "Ifabowale, Osundamilola" Stewart, affectionately known as just Alafia, is a second-generation practitioner. Her parents transitioned from Santeria to Lukumi, then to Isese during her childhood. She is a passionate agent of change in spiritual awareness through the advocacy of accurate representation of Orisha devotees in media. She holds a BA from Dillard University and an MBA from Universidad Interamericana de Puerto Rico. Alafia has also been featured in the New York Times for her contributions to the Public Broadcast System (PBS) docu-series Sacred Journeys with Bruce Feiler chronicling her journey to initiation in Nigeria in the summer of 2014. Alafia has spent the last decade on international platforms representing the Orisha community. From, TV to radio and print. Alafia stands for the future of Orisha worship to be normalized and celebrated.   We chat about African traditional religion in the time of social media. Alafia discusses how she uses her platform to expose lies and offer support and transparency to the community. She also encourages us to be empowered and informed when seeking spirituality.     [00:01 – 00:50] Opening Segment I introduce our guest, Alafia Stewart   [00:51 – 03:57] Who is Alafia Stewart? When Alafia was growing up, her religion was not socially acceptable Now African spirituality is normalized because of social media   [03:57 – 13:40] Challenges in the Spiritual Journey There are a lot of misrepresentations online The sad part is that those who know very little are the loudest talkers Alafia gives tips on how to sniff out scammers When starting out, date your religion and take time to get to know it better   [13:41 – 20:01] Taking Care of the Spiritual Community Alafia did not initially want to speak about her religion but she realized her true passion Being a spiritual practioner is not as easy as it seems Having a deep love for the community is important   [20:12 – 20:58] The Guided Meditation for Wealth Move past the negative thoughts and build a better relationship with money and abundance. Watch the guided meditation on YouTube for free!   [20:59 – 26:32] Your Spiritual Sister on the Internet Need non-biased and non-judgmental insights on religion? Alafia would love to hear from you! Dreams for the brand: elevating the vibration of the community and giving gifts of knowledge and experience Alafia's top three places that she feels most connected to    [31:17 – 37:28] Closing Segment Alafia answers the BOI Talk and Hop questions Reach out to Alafia!   Tweetable Quotes: “There are folks that want to come into my religion simply to get initiated and to have a title or some sort of social standing, which is wild, but it happens.” - Alafia Stewart “Do your due diligence as if you would look for a life partner because this religion is not free. It is expensive. Spiritual work is expensive.” - Alafia Stewart “We live in a society where there is a core set of religions that have essentially taken over. At least now, folks are moving away from the religious constructs that they come from and reconnecting back to their ancestry.” - Alafia Stewart   Connect with Alafia Stewart at www.heyalafia.com. Follow her on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter, or message her at Winno.   Learn more about Evolve Benton at https://www.evolvebenton.com/  Listen to more episodes of BOI Meets Wellness at https://www.boimeetswellness.com/ Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/boimeetswellness/ Follow us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/BOIMEETSWELLNESS/ Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/thebmwpodcast Check out our new merch store https://www.boigearstore.com/ Get the Money Mindset Journal: https://rebrand.ly/MoneyMindsetJournal Click here for Kajabi's 30 days free trial: https://rebrand.ly/Kajabi99 Download StreamYard for your show: https://rebrand.ly/StreamyardBOI    Watch the Guided Meditation For Wealth: https://youtu.be/qSlnH7FDUOw Hit us up and send us an email at boimeetswellness@gmail.com 

Kris Henry (they/them/theirs) is a radical Jamaican nonbinary creative, an Obeah enby, and an Aborisha in the Lukumì tradition. Kris creates art in many forms—centering their twerk as a spiritual safe space for Black queer, trans and intersex folx. They seek to create authentically empowering, ancestrally connected healing experiences that bring a sense of agency and sovereignty back to the historically marginalized from the inside out. Kris’ first published project is a collection of poetry titled “Love LETTERS”, and their second project, Warri(O)racle, is an online chapbook. Their latest creative baby is The Spiritual Abolitionist Oracle Deck: a radical, Black and queer centered divination tool to affirm the spiritual safety and wellness of Black queer, trans and intersex folx. You can find their projects at www.thespiritualabolitionist.com and follow them on Instagram @kriswithakcreates and @thespiritualabolitionist to see what they’re up to next.This episode we explore:Connecting with your ancestors and trancestorsHonoring our queer ancestors with visibilityGender in the spirit worldProtecting your spiritual energyThis episode is too good to keep all to yourself.Hello. Welcome to another episode of body liberation for all. I'm your host, Dalia Kinsey your Black, queer, holistic registered dietitian and the author of Decolonizing Wellness A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation.Like I've covered on the show before and like I covered the book, healing, growth, there's no end to it. If you are a curious person, if you are a person who's really interested in being as free as possible, you know there is no end point. As soon as you dig in deep and heal one area of your life, another layer appears. It's never over.And something that I have been working on a lot lately is my relationship with spirituality and my reluctance to openly talk about the spiritual traditions that I feel most closely tied to and realizing that I have been socialized/ colonized to normalize Christian beliefs and to not think it's strange when someone believes wholeheartedly in the rapture or in the second coming of Christ, all of that seems perfectly normal. And all the time in the United States, you see people who are professionals, who are academics, blending their Christian belief systemand the work that they do all the time, you see therapists doing their work through a Christian lens. And I don't often find people criticizing that, but that may also be because I'm in Georgia.That said I've been taking a closer look at my reluctance to dig in, to traditional African spirituality in a public way and questioning why do I think that people may see me as less professional if I openly share my spiritual beliefs?What are the assumptions that I'm making? What are the assumptions that I have internalized that make it seem complex to me, to both be a person who believes in science and a person who believes in ancestor veneration? Why does it seem like those two things don't go together? Where does that come from? And what can I do to uproot those beliefs from my own consciousness?So, this conversation is coming from a bit of a vulnerable place because it's something I'm still working through. And I know that at some point I'll face that challenge of not feeling compelled to defend my spiritual beliefs or to counter. Any ignorant statements that imply the ancestor veneration is somehow more primitive than Christianity or somehow less logical than Christianity.Now for any of the atheist fam that's listening. I am sure that it all seems maybe about the same level of illogical. But I will say you were warned that my approach is holistic mind, body, spirit.And this episode, we're leaning heavily into the spirit aspect of that. I do think it is very important for your wellness to have a view to have a belief system that supports who you are as a full person.One of the things that is most nourishing about the traditions I've been exploring lately is that they don't have an element of proselytization. So, you are free to believe whatever affirms you and whatever feels good for you. And that doesn't affect me, and it doesn't have to affect my belief system.That is an enormous departure from the form of Christianity that I practiced in my youth. But it is a deeply liberating approach to spirituality. So, there's room for everyone. And if you already know in your gut, this episode is not for you.Then I'll see you on the 15th. Today am joined by Kris Henry.Kris is a spiritualist and they identify as an Obeah enby and an Aborisha in the Lukumi tradition. So, a lot of the insights that Kris brings us today are coming through that lens. You have to check out their site, www.thespiritualabolitionist.com If you don't immediately fall in love when you see them using twerk in place of work throughout the branding of the site and centering Black queer trans and intersex folks, I don't understand you. They are a fascinating person their book of poetry, entitled love letters, I absolutely love, and I've gotten so much value out of there oracle deck. I love using oracle decks, tarot decks as journaling prompts so that I can really connect to my own will whenever I'm at a crossroads.I've started working with Kris myself and the more I honor ancestral practices, the more empowered I feel in the present tense.I deeply resonate with their goal to create authentically empowering ancestrally connected healing practices that bring a sense of agency and sovereignty back to the historically marginalized from the inside out. Doesn't that just hit you in the heart? Their work is beautiful. This conversation was lovely.Let's get into itBody Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.Dalia: Thanks for coming on the show today, Kris.Kris: Thank you for having me.Dalia: I'm so excited.I got my oracle card deck. So originally this is how we met. I saw you posted something on Facebook about your deck pre-sales being ready to go live and what really just grabbed my attention was that it's specifically from the perspective of a queer nonbinary Black person. And how many times is that even an option? Because I know even when I was just looking for a tarot deck or an oracle deck actually made by a Black person, I couldn't find, but a few. And there were others out there where they had Black characters depicted on the card, but it was clearly like exactly the same images from something else.I don't know if you've ever tried to buy a Black Santa, but anybody who has knows the struggle. So sometimes you'll find a quote unquote, Black Santa, but it is the white Santa who's been painted. And sometimes it even has the audacity to chip before Christmas is over. So, it was the same thing. Some of these, I was like, all y'all did was paint these same characters, Black or even worse.I saw a couple from non-Black artists. And it was their concept of Blackness, which we'll just say it was off. It wasn't, it wasn't accurate. So anyway,Kris: Hashtag problematicDalia: Thank you! Then I actually saw you promoting your own art. I was just fascinated. So, I would love to hear about your journey into spiritualism and how you got to the point that you created this for the rest of us, who've been dying to have something exactly like this.Kris: Oh my gosh, you don't even know how many back flips my heart just did that you said that because, I mean, I felt the same way to be totally honest with you.I was looking for a deck that really resonated with me. And I was like, I don't want to feel like a part of me is left out. Like, this is very like cis- het in premise, even though it's Black or this is non-Black, but it's queer kind of thing. And yeah, so that really just warmed my heart. I just had to say, thank you.Thank you for that. So, my journey into spiritualism, well, I was like a very devout Christian when I was in high school and nobody made me go to church or anything. I think like some part of me just knew I needed something spiritual in my life. And then in college I started having like a crisis of faith and just started really questioning a lot of things about the foundations of Christianity.So I was in more of a place where I was like, I don't know what I believe. But in that time, my father's mother passed, and I started seeing and hearing her. And that was my introduction into ancestors, I would say. And that's probably the foundation of where like all my other connections with different spirits and energies and stuff really started.Dalia: How did you feel when that first happened? Because I know me growing up in a, I was made to go to church, so difference there, and there was always a lot of fear around anything that had to do with the dead. At least what I was told was that if you think you heard a deceased, loved one, it's a demon pretending to be them.So, I would have been alarmed, had that happen to me. But what was your experience?Kris: I think what this really came down to is that I was blessed to have relationships with both of my grandmothers while they were alive. So, it was like, I knew their energies. Both of them, like when they passed, I knew it was, they knew it was me kind of thing.And like right before my grandma passed a few months earlier, when we kind of found out that she wasn't going to make it and they were like, just take her home so she can be comfortable for however long she has left kind of thing. She started saying something very like random to me about like asking me what size shoe I wear.And she was like, I just have a feeling you're going to have to wear my shoes. But she was like this hardcore prayer warrior. And there were so many things that she used to do that I didn't understand as a kid, or I thought like, she's just really, really into this and not quite as much as me kind of thing.And, but it's like, they're really like some foundations for spiritual ism and that side of my family, despite being very devoutly, Christian, they're very superstitious about things that kind of let me know. There was other things that folks started hiding in Christianity on that side of my family. So, I think between those two things, I just knew it was her.I literally felt it in the moment that she let go of her existence in this life. And I felt her come to me and then I just started feeling her. It'd be like, grab this while you're at the store. And I would need it like six months later and stuff like that. And then eventually she was like, I need you to make me, she didn't describe it as an altar.Other people call them alters, but she described it as a landing pad. She was like, I need you to make me a landing pad. I need to introduce you some other ancestors. And so that was how she basically taught me how to make an altar. And so I'm spirit taught in a lot of the things that I do, like different spirits, just kind of introduce themselves to me cause they know that like I won't get freaked out and I kind of, you know how to communicate and learn them.I think the foundation of that is that I knew her while she was alive. And so, it was like, I got to be in her energy while she was alive. And I knew it was her when she passed. Yeah.Dalia: That really resonates the idea that even in families that have become very deeply interested in Christianity or that's the only religious practice they associate with that doesn't mean that all of the old spiritual practices are gone.And it's something that I've seen pop up a lot of places, the accusation or the false idea that Black Americans who are descendants of enslaved people have no culture because slavery interrupted all of that. And somehow, we just magically became nothing but property. And there are even some Black Americans who believe that, like we have nothing, but it's not true.It may be took different forms and our culture has evolved to be something that you don't find on the continent. It has become something else, but at no point, did we become culture free or spirituality free and only have the option of what, you know, your oppressor offered you. It always becomes some kind of hybrid version of what we were before and who we are now.So, I've been reading more about hoodoo and how you can see a lot of practices you see, and who do come from specific indigenous practices that people might still practice a little bit in Africa, not as much because colonization also affected people's relationship with indigenous religions there, but you can see that people were brought here and then became like an amalgamation of all the different religious practices.It wasn't coming from one specific area. So, it becomes a reflection of the diaspora and you find it everywhere. You just don't always recognize where it came from.Kris: Exactly. And that was what I would actually go to say that that applies to Black people globally. Cause my family is actually Jamaican. And I like work with Christian spirits, but I also practice Obeah and those two things are treated like they're totally different.And Obeah is still like illegal because it's associated with curses and hexes, but people don't know that a lot of those laws came from when Obeah men were giving slaves poison to poison their masters and were giving slaves or enslaved people, rather because I'm like reprogramming that one in my brain.But we're giving them tokens for a courage to rebel and things like that. Because before that white people were still going to Obeah men in Jamaica too. So, it was just like, but it's different when you start using this stuff to mess with their systems. Right? So that's where a lot of like the witchcraft laws aroundreally began. It's like rooted in this tradition of rebellion. And I don't know, it just never felt mutually exclusive for me because both of my grandmas were Christians. And so, it's like, despite the fact that Obeah is really what connects me to my ancestors and through my ancestors connects me to a lot of other stuff.It's like, I know that like a lot of Christian spirits have my back because my grandmother is prayed over me, like to them tooDalia: So, some of these other spirits are not deceased blood relatives. They could be spirits who have been looking out for your family for a while.Kris: Exactly. And that's the thing for a lot of Black people globally like that.I really try to impart is that. You can be the one who is restoring some tradition from 600 years ago and developing a new way of relating to this spirit that could just recognize like, oh, hey, you know, you're a descendant of this like bloodline that I have like a pact with or whatever. So as a lot of people are really waking up to these things, you know, a lot of these spirits are like, oh, you might actually be open to be in the one I can talk to you now.Dalia: Now when it comes to that, was there a recognizable alter in hindsight, in your grandma's house?The one who said she needed a landing pad; did she have one?Kris: So, both of my grandmothers had like these just different like display case things with everybody's funeral programs or like a wall wave and yeah, one time actually, when my mom on. On my mom's side, she basically says like, yeah, I like to keep everybody's programs.Cause my mom used to do it. Like, and one time she saw my altar and she totally rearranged it somewhere else. She like brought me something and she didn't go, this was my author. She was just like, well, I just saw you had this right here. And I thought it made sense to do it like this. And she completely like perfectly made an altar and she knows nothing about that stuff just from seeing it so many times without a name though.Dalia: That's so interesting because I never thought about that saving the programs. And that is so interesting. Yes, absolutely. I have a ton of relatives who do that, who feel very Christian and that's all they are, but like my mother is half Jamaican and half Cuban and I know just, they worked so hard to break people away from their traditional ways that feels like even in the family members, there is this fear around all things that aren't recognizable as part of Catholicism or part of another branch of Christianity. Even the family members that, you know, in Cuba, the mixing of Santeria and Catholicism,but then some people are like, oh no. Even if their neighbors and the rest of the town says, this is normal, and this is what we do here. So have you had any tension like that with anybody in the family or you've been able to just stay focused on what you knew was right? And you were affirmed by your two grandmas?Kris: Yeah, it's definitely more so the second one, I like. I don't know that I've really been like super close to a whole bunch of my family. Like, as I just got older, because I was just more so in community where I was, and my family didn't necessarily live near me, you know? So, I wouldn't necessarily be the person who was like traveling across the country for a bunch of family events.So, in that way, it's like, I mean, if somebody does have a problem with me, they probably just keep their distance. And I don't know, but the family members that I'm close to are all really, really cool about it, but also just because they know me as a person. So, it's like, nobody's looking at me like, oh, Kris is just evil.Dalia: That's a blessing in itself. You don't need that extra, heat from family.Kris: Yeah. And so, I don't know. I feel like if I have a feeling like somebody does feel like that, I just kind of keep my distance from them. And I do think internally I had to work, lose some things like both with my queerness and with my spirituality on that front.But over time, like my sister burns ancestor money now she'll hit me up. Like, what should I do to like, thank the ancestor because this money burns has just brought in some clients, like what's going on.And I had a cousin hit me up one time was like, what's this aura cleanse business about?Definitely some of like my family's minds have open or they felt led into just trying some stuff and seeing how they can work their realities and things based off seeing me. So that's been really good.Dalia: I love that, like you said, other ancestors or other spirits in general might recognize that you are the entry point into helping the family reclaim old practices, but then it also seems like living family may recognize you are the entry point to reconnecting to something that they've lost.Kris: Wow. I hadn't really thought about it like that, but yeah.Dalia: With the queerness, when did that come into your awareness? So, you were voluntarily, actively experiencing spirituality in high school, through a Christian Church where you aware of your queerness then, or were you in a church where that wasn't a problem.Kris: So, I don't think I was really aware of my queerness in high school, at least not like consciously. I think I became aware of my friend sometime in college around my junior year of college, I would say when I was just like dating more and hoeing more so, and senior year was my first queer relationship and we were together for a little while.And so, when it became like, just kind of clear that that was serious, that I wasn't like experimenting, I was really embracing like, no, I can just, I'm like just queer, you know, I can, I can have really queer relationships. At that point, I was like, all right, well, I'm gonna have to tell my family.They, cause I'm not like I'm obviously not going to like hide my relationships and stuff like that. Like that was just my mentality at that time was just, well, if like where there's going to be some problems, we might as well just find out now, you know? But I don't think anybody was really like actively homophobic or at least not like intentionally, because I do come from a Jamaican family.Like my mom sometimes will say like really insensitive stuff and I'll be like, Ooh, that was like really hurtful. But in hindsight, I can see like, she's trying, you know, she was trying, but there's like a cultural learning curve and stuff. And she wouldn't like, when I learned how to just communicate, like this hurts me, she would adjust her behavior rather than being like super reactive.So even looking back with that, like things where I would've been like, yeah, I was dealing with homophobia and stuff from my family, it was more like from a place of ignorance, it wasn't from a place of like malice or like anybody was going to disown me or anything like that, you know? And so, yeah. And then when I came out as non-binary, that was in 2019.So that was more recently that I came out to myself and then like to my family and stuff. Oh, it was a lot harder with my pronouns. Dalia: Oh my goodness. The struggle is real. How, what was that process like for you? Because I feel like in hindsight, so I was born in 81. I'm going to be 40 this year.And so, we didn't have a lot of language that we have now in English. And its weird how language can kind of bind you. It's hard to conceive of a concept that doesn't exist in your language, but at the same time, this is the colonizer's language. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of my ancestors’ indigenous languages, even though I speak Spanish because of my Cuban ancestry.Again, that's another colonizers language. So, I'm sure there was more room and gender wasn't as binary and some of these languages, because I know culturally the binary was not a thing in a lot of the cultures that we are linked to by blood, but for me, even trying to express, I knew I was never hyper femme. I always hated hyper fem things, but then I also thought, well, what part of this is just how we're socialized to think about femininity?And for a while, it was just like, well, I'm just a bunchy woman, but then in relationships with women, they were like, hmmm, you're absolutely not that. And then I'm like, oh, I'm an aggressive femme. Just trying to find the language and then trying to find which pronouns are mine, it's been such a journey. I find sometimes I'll even mis-gender myself, but lately what's been feeling right is no pronouns at all. And my mother growing up, even though she, her are her pronouns, she was always told us you never use someone's pronouns while they're in the room. Like, if I would say her talking about my mother, she would pop me in the head, not like super hard, but like, I'm right here.I'm your mother. I'm right here. Don't talk about me like I'm not here. And she said that it was a Jamaican thing, but I have not heard that consistently.I'm like, is it, where does that come from? Have you heard that before? Like being a thing, that even cis people say don't use pronouns while I'm standing right here?Kris: No, not in my family, but I'm so intrigued when I hear stuff like that, because it does sound like indigenous in nature.Dalia: It's weird. And then I mentioned it just someone else trying to explain, I don't use any pronouns at all, but some people, mostly straight people have been reading no pronouns as hostile to LGBTQIA+ people, but I'd heard other people saying it too.So I don't know I'm in like this weird place of like didn't we always know we were non-binary, but we just weren't using the word non-binary and isn't that just a big ass umbrella. And that's why so many of us are like, am I in the right place? Cause it's like such a big room.Kris: Exactly. Yeah. I because I think if I had the language, I probably would've started going by.Non-binary when I started going by Kris when I was 12, because I didn't have language for it, but I was like, it just sounds less like a girl's name, you know? Cause like my birth name was Kristen and so my family would call me Kristin, but everybody else in my life had called me Kris since that age, you know?And so it was like, I was thinking about it. I was like, if I would've had the language back then that probably would have been the moment that I would have been like, yeah, no, this is it's because this is like who I am and just feeling very much outside of a lot of the language and almost feeling like I existed just outside of a lot of people's concepts of what masculine feminine are and like, and I think that's divine.You know, and I think my connections with all these different spirits and all these different realms has just continued to affirm that. Like when you really start seeing the vast variety of realms that there are, it makes sense. How many of us are probably connected to all of these realms that are really just figuring out a new way to exist and new ways to express ourselves.But you're also not the first person ever I've known who doesn't use any pronouns and is just like, I know two people who just use their first initials and they're like, my pronouns are K you know.Dalia: That gives me an idea, that actually is really helpful. It can be hard for people to get used to it, not because they're trying to be difficult. It's just a bigger shift than them accepting your queerness and learning how to not be offensive to you, but asking people to use the correct pronouns when that's just not how the language has worked in their experience up until now. It's a struggle.So then when you ask somebody don't use any pronouns at all, they feel like they're saying your name entirely too much in a sentence. It feels very strange to them.Kris: Oh goodness. That's wild. Yeah. I think like, I'm just, I just know so many different queer people that I'm not programmed to just assume anything about anybody.So I'm very much like when somebody tells me, like, if somebody was like refer to me as it, I'm like, okay, that's just, you, you know,Dalia: It's not a problem with queer people because when people use Neo pronouns, I'm just like, okay, okay. I write it down. I put it next to their name in my phone and I get it. And I know to look at it again before we start talking so that I will use the correct ones.It's not that hard.Kris: Exactly. So, I think like being in community, you kind of learn to let people tell you who they are, rather than assuming anything about them. So it didn't like strike me as anything when I saw no pronouns. So I was just like, all right.Dalia: You see this is why spending time in community is so crucial. I really want to know more about when you look back, even thinking about your ancestors and the gendered language around like, oh, that was your great, great grandma, but was it, we don't know. You didn't meet, like we don't really know. Have you had any epiphanies that specific people have brought to you or once people get out of their physical body, is there less attachment to things like that?Because spirit never has a gender, right? At least that's what I thought that spirit is always gender free.Kris: Because this is a freewill universe. They can take on like any like forms and fashions that they want. That's why, like, even with our Orisha, you'll have different paths, like there's different lifetimes of them that will look different and we're different.And just because multidimensionality is a very real thing when it comes to spirits. And a lot of like, just the fact that energy does recycle in all these different ways. So you will have a lot of gender neutral entities that are like, I'm just like a universal energy. Like I don't, but then you will also have like goddesses or, you know, who are just like, no, I like really lean into what we would say is femininity now. But even within the, like, you've seen the deck, like I really break down how, like, these things are really formless energy concepts that can manifest in different ways. So there's no way to define it except to connect to it for yourself and decide what proportion of that you resonate with, you know?Just like, there's all different types of like identities that humans are realizing that we have it's very similar for spirits.Dalia: Interesting, because I had assumed that, especially when we're here in the west, a lot of times you're always dealing with some kind of male cis-gender God.I started to think it was always a projection that humans are putting on spirit, this gendered thing. But I never thought about, you know, the spirit itself or himself or herself may decide. This is the energy that I want to put out there. And then people pick up on that energy and understand this is a goddess, or this is just spirit with no gender.Kris: Right. And sometimes like, just depending on where your conception is, spirits won't necessarily have attachments to being seen a certain way. So if they have to take on a certain form to be comprehensible, then that's what they'll do. Like there's this one Veda where Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita where Krishna shows somebody Krishna’s universal form and it freaked the person out.Like the whole thing is like, I went through wonder, I went through total fear.... and then Krishna turned back into like a humanoid thing. So yeah that's like what I really look like. And you just aren't ready.Dalia: I wonder if that's why, so a while ago I got a reading, an ancestor reading. I was under the impression maybe something broke down in communication, but I thought that my ancestors were going to be, making bold, visible moves within a certain timeframe and that it didn't happen.But then when I went back for a follow-up reading, the person that had the reading, when they said, I think it's you, you are not ready and they know you're not ready and they're not here to freak anybody out. They know that if you really start hearing them and seeing them, you're going to have a little meltdown, even though you keep saying, show yourself, show yourself.They're like, ummmm, but you're not ready. So that all makes sense.Kris: Yeah, absolutely. Cause my spirits definitely know there's only certain times that I can deal with visuals. Other times it's like do not just pop up in the corner of my eye when I just woke up. Y'all like, don't do that. I don't have a problem with hearing anybody like that for some reason, that just never really freaked me out. So I'm like send a sound like before you send an image, if you see like I'm doing any meditation, I can look at you.Dalia: I love the idea of being able to set boundaries even with non-human entities.,Kris: You have to, or they'll run your life. Like they'll get away with as much as you let them get away with, but then you also have some, like, that's why I think ancestors, it's really important to connect with them before you start connecting with other entities because you are them.So they really understand your human limits a lot more than other spirits. Like some of them, it's not that they don't care, but they don't exist in this body. So they don't understand that you're tired unless you just say like, Hey, not right now, like I'm tired. Or if you're like, they don't come at me like that, like this is not a productive way to communicate.Like, okay, I understand that this is urgent, but you can't do this right now. This is hurting my ears. Like that kind of thing. You know?Dalia: How do you make sure that you specifically stick to your ancestors? Is it just by asking that only they come through or are there tools you would stay away from.Is that your experience? Are there certain tools we should save for later or save for never?Kris: So tricksters will definitely like, especially if the spirit doesn't recognize you. So it's if you haven't been initiated into something and you're like, oh, I'm just going to light this candle and summon and so-and-so and tricksters there definitely will be like, well, s**t, I'm just gonna answer cause like so-and-so's obviously not coming.Cause you don't know what you're doing. And they will just come and talk to you, like give me attention, give me energy. I think, well, number one, like either starting with somebody that you knew in life or somebody that you just heard a lot of stories about when it comes to ancestors and letting them be your entryway into other ancestors.And when it comes to branching out into other spirits, like, because when spirits realize you can hear them, a lot of different things, we'll just kind of like try to flood you sometimes. And so you do have to know how to say no . When I feel like somebody, I like haven't like consciously interacted with before it's coming.The first thing that I do is like ask, do you mean me my highest good. And if the answer is at all shaky, cause like a trickster will try to lie, but you can kind of feel, it feels like when a person's lying a little bit, you know, like there's just something shaky. You didn't know how to answer that directly.But then when I get a really direct response, the responses like, yes, like obviously like then it's like, okay, so now we can like talk.Dalia: That's really helpful. Do you, in your experience, does everyone who passes, like if you're thinking of a close relative that died, but in life they were super, super Christian and all they ever envisioned was going straight to heaven no in-between is everybody available to be called out to, or are there some people that based on what they said when you knew them.They probably have moved on and they can't hear you anymore.Kris: It really depends. Some ancestors are earth bound. Like for some reason they just couldn't cross over. They can't let go. And some really didn't have something just deeply unhealed in them. That just still plagues them as a spirit.So different situational things like that will affect even if you say like, let me speak with my honorable ancestors or my righteous ancestors, then like certain ancestors, aren't going to be able to answer that. And that is how you want to start. You don't want to start with like your unhealed ancestors giving you a bunch of discouraging advice. I think one thing when people talk about this separation though, is that eventually you can reach a point where you can do healing work with those ancestors, but you really have to have a solid foundation with the ones who mean you your highest good first, you know, so that like you can really see that distinction and know the kind of healing work that you're doing.Because a lot of the things with your unhealed ancestors are also unhealed in you. So that's a very vulnerable thing.Dalia: Can you help them do healing without directly interacting with them? If you do your own healing work does that go backwards, and forwards like with your other relatives?Kris: Yeah. I think anytime anybody heals themselves, it heals around and backwards and forwards.The present is in conversation with all things, whatever current present you're choosing is in conversation with alternate realities, it's in conversation with the future and it's in conversation with the past. And so, yeah, you can definitely do things to elevate ancestors who need elevating and help bring them peace, but you need to be in a solid place and have a solid, hold on those things within yourself first, you know?Dalia: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. I've been thinking a lot lately about, well, not lately, probably like forever about intergenerational trauma and how it physically is passed on to you through DNA. But then also wondering if sometimes if you feel like a high level of rage or just general being super, super high strung in a way that indicates you're a descendant of survivors of trauma, but also could be that you're still feeling their energy and all this unresolved rage that they died with because they were subjected to countless injustices and just all the disappointment you can even imagine.If you get to a point where you're spending your time in silence and you feel like your nervous system is less agitated all the time, would that also be going out to them or does that not necessarily mean anything's happened beyond you?Kris: Oh, it absolutely does. Like, your DNA is like a continuation of that, you know?And so yeah, the intergenerational healing definitely does impact the experiences of intergenerational trauma, because it starts activating the things that the trauma deactivated within the bloodline too, you know, like these connections with all these other spirits. That's why sometimes when you move through something that does take up a whole lot of weight, because trauma is like a really heavy energy, wherever you experience it.Right. And when you clear that it makes room for like a whole lot of subtle energy that was once there before, you know.I think you said something earlier about like ancestors who conceptualize gender differently that I wanted to touch on because a lot of the people will say it was the great mothers were the original humans, but they like it when I say the great ancestors, because so many of them did not resonate with womanhood.Like there were trans men, they were folks who in today's terms would identify as non-binary. And that's why like Black queer trans and intersex folks do have like a lot of unseen forces that are so in supportive us, like being visible and being out.Dalia: That makes me wonder too, when you spoke about ancestors that are invested in the wellbeing of your family, not because you're blood relatives, but because they had a commitment with your blood line.I immediately thought that this could also be like folks who never decided to have children of their own or couldn't for whatever reason also being part of our extended family. Family isn't just blood family in this life or in any other.Kris: Yeah, absolutely. And that's where like the whole concept of trancestors comes from too.Like a lot ofDalia: Ohhh tell me about that I haven't heard that.Kris: I feel like my first trancestors were Monte Carlo and Keywan they pass they were really like really integral in the Atlanta community. But they were two of the first, like people who had passed that my ancestors were like, okay, you have to help them transition.You have to work with them and stuff like that. So I actually bonded with them, in depth and wound up really involved in doing a lot of like death doula work and helping community members like grieve and like sending messages from them and things like that. And it really has deeply connected me to a lot of trancestors who really their family and this life was community, you know?And so they, they look over communities still.Dalia: Oh, wow. That's beautiful. So the things that you offer to the community as a spiritualist, you do death doula work, and you also have created the Oracle deck for us. What are the other things that you do?Kris: I'm also just a deeply creative person, so there's a lot of like just creative stuff that I do as well. I paint, I do poetry. I've been a career spoken word artists. And so I would say that while it's not necessarily my career, it is another deep, part of my calling is to be a creative soul.But the spiritual abolitionist definitely is and the cosmic reparations fund and just making myself available as a universal, spiritual support system for Black queer trans and intersex people who sees them like for who they are, you know? And I think it's deeply meaningful to receive spiritual support and healing protection tools, prosperity tools.Everything in my shop is really geared towards things to make our lives easier, given all the s**t that goes on in this system. So when there was a lot going on with police action against Black people, I dropped the f**k around and find out protection blend was like, okay. So if a white person is trying to kill you with the cops clot then went this, you know, like, but then also like when I see people crowdfunding like, oh, Hey, here's some ancestor money burn this as you crowd fund and help manifest more funds for you.You know? The higher love potion, which is like a roll-on oil is like, I see a lot of folks going through stuff emotionally. So this is going to help with calling in your spirits who can help with emotional support, you know so it's deeply rooted. Just everything that I do. I'm open for aura cleanses and for divinations this month as well. The deck really came out of like, I was like, I can't really like divine for everybody all the time, but I think this is literally a way that I can, you know, and when I realized that like that Oracle deck did not exist, that was for like Black queer trans and intersex folks. I was like, all right, well, I need to create, it was basically what spirit was just like, it doesn't exist yet.Cause you didn't make it like you paint, you write you've been a collective channel, what's stopping you they were just like, why haven't you made it already? Dalia: I love that. I love that. And for anybody who doesn't know the difference between tarot and oracle cards, what is the difference to you as someone who actually has made it.Kris: Yeah. So tarot is a regimented system. So even though you'll have them with different themes and using different things to express them, there's still basic things about numbers and the elements and stuff that just applies to tarot and the major Arcana also. And so it's more regimented in that way, you're going to have the same number of cards you're going to have the same archetypes. Oracle decks are a lot more open-ended even in how you can read with them.with this one, they, it went through like several different editing processes kind of, because I was initially gonna like, have a lot more keys and they were just like, why? Just like, like you said, everything you need to say, like stop trying to like rub your nose against the grind stone.Basically.Dalia: When you say it could be read different ways to, how do you recommend somebody use a deck?Kris: So you can pretty much approach it anyway, that was one thing about the reason that I. Went to different primordial, just universal energies but I more so consulted the universal energies who were conscious of marginalization and of the spiritual warfare on the mental and emotional wellbeing of Black queer trans and intersex folks every day, because we're seeing it more.And I started just seeing a lot of things that folks were going to have to be dealing with in the next 10 to 25 years. And it was like, yo, I need the guidance that's really going to help, folks to do the inner work, do the outer work or whatever to be prepared. And a lot of us who can really feel that new ways of existence need to, are going to need to be existing sometime soon.You know, I was like a lot of these oracle decks are very frilly and love and lighty and don't necessarily acknowledge like, no, revolution is coming. It's really here in the spiritual realms, you know?Dalia: Oh, yeah, that resonates so deeply. So much is missing in these mainstream spiritual practices that have hijacked some indigenous traditions and over simplified them.And everything's about 'love and light love and light', and the insinuation is if you really are a spiritual person that you're only aware of positive things, and every time something negative, you know, starts to come toward you, you're just like positive vibes only. And then magically that negative force just poof disappears.We know from living in these Black bodies, that's not a f*****g thing. And that you could be bursting with positive energy and spiritual power and you will still have to deal with whatever the fuckery is of the day, whether that's somebody's homophobia f*****g up your employment situation, or somebody's transphobia f*****g you over, or somebody racism, it really is a thing.So when you just now said it's spiritual warfare, can you talk about that? Because I would love to hear from a spiritual perspective, that's focused on abolition and liberation. What is really going on?Kris: Oh, okay. I'm going to have to like talk about this kind of broadly and you're going to find this getting fucked.So my, my word that I like to use is Babylon for the powers that used to be, I'm just going to say, cause they're really scrambling to hold onto power now. Because I think so many Black people are waking up and kind of realizing when you feel very drained because of a lot of these things, your energy is going somewhere.It's powering things. And so a lot of the times, like when there's like these really subtle stories, these news stories, that these are the ones that everybody's seeing everywhere of, like, like I was telling somebody the other day, I've marched for a lot of people who did not make the news. And now all of a sudden it has to be a news story.And the video footage has to be on your timeline and stuff like that. And just things that like will fundamentally make you feel unsafe and make your spirit feel unsafe in your body. That energy goes somewhere. So that stuff is very much intentional, just like in terms of trying to degrade our mental and emotional wellness to distract us from getting messages about what we need to be doing and ways that we can be prepared and things that we're meant to be doing on this earth right now to deal with this stuff, you know. For a whileI was just like going around doing healing, work with different places in the land where there are a lot of Black American earthbound ancestors who just died in such horrific ways that they're not at peace . And so I would just go out and do healing work. That was where, like the term, the spiritual abolitionist really came from, was it felt like helping free them and free these ancestors that were bound.But those were ritual sacrifices. You see what I'm saying? Like the KKK is a ritualistic group. And so even when those things, like they're deeply embedded in a lot of the folks who are at the top of these corporations and stuff like there's ritual symbolism and things like that, that they're really trying to do to wage war on us all the time, and to keep us blind to our power, you know?But the thing is a lot of us, we are we're master manifesters or we have spirits who are master manifesters like, we have spirits who will make ways for us and stuff like that. And spirits who will give us strength like High John the Conqueror is one that a lot of people will use because he's really big on emotional uplift and on helping you find ways to outwit them and outwit situations and stuff.And so I like, as a shadow seer, I can see like certain like ritualistic things that are going on and are very background when certain things start circulating like that. And so I'll also see like, okay, this will be emotionally manipulating this kind of stuff. So then my channelings will be like, Hey, do this kind of inner healing work, focus on this in this time, you know?To try to send messages from energies that are trying to balance and neutralize and not allow certain outcomes to happen to folks. And so that also definitely went into the creation of the deck was just teaching people how to protect themselves on a small scale when people are throwing crap at you or just evil eye and stuff, but also on a larger scale with the stuff that the state is just doing every day to try to f**k with us, you know?Dalia: I've been hearing lately from almost everybody I know at this point in my life, everybody, they told you on a regular basis is involved in some kind of social justice work in some area, whether it's trying to get equal access to healthcare for fat people, whether it's trying to get people to stop murdering Asian people, everybody's in some kind of liberation work and everyone has been so demoralized lately that at the end of every conversation, it's just like, I guess my new objective is just to survive. Like repeatedly friends, keep saying, when I asked, well, how are you doing? And they know, I don't mean just give me some surface level. I mean, how are you really doing?How are you doing? They're like, well, I'm still alive. And that's about it. Early 2020, it felt like momentum and there was new life into this second wave of the civil rights movement.And then it started to feel like the constant news coverage, became an energy drain. And then you heard even well meaning folks of color saying you can't look away and don't forget their names. And basically if you don't have the strength to keep watching it, like who the f**k do you think you are? I mean, they died.Kris: It's like guilting people into consuming. Especially I dislike it when people do that to Black people and like I'm Black every day, you know?Dalia: Right, right. Do I really have to keep watching something that's going to make me feel like I don't have any energy left to do anything?Kris: And to be honest, I was an organizer before I was a spiritualist. And I think that was one thing that I saw. I was like, I can't help, but feel like the way this is modeled currently, we're not modeled to model wellness and model wellness as an essential part of doing that kind of work, you know, like modeling, having inner peace as an essential part of going to war with things. Because you can't be out of balance and those energies either, or you'll just be popping off and giving your energy to everything and mental health matters.You know, mental health is deeply connected to spiritual health. We had so many ancestral practices that were for mental, spiritual, and emotional health that I feel like are coming back in a lot of these ways. I am prioritizing, like, I've seen a lot of Hoodoo apothecaries with like, anti-anxiety herbs for Black folks, you know, and different stuff like that.I mean, in my opinion, you should be in your liberation work out of love and not obligation. If you are doing what you're doing, because somebody is telling you to feel obligated to it. That's not really coming from your heart. That might not even necessarily be what you are meant to do. I do think they try to condition us to burn ourselves out so that we're not effective.And so that is a large part of what spurred me into becoming a healer and doing aura cleanses and things like that. And helping people release those things at an energy level ,receive these visions from spirit at an energy level, you know, like cultivate that self love on an energy level so that you have like a level of psychic shielding.And you know, when to use that when you're dealing with these things.Dalia: That framing is extremely helpful. Doing the work out of love. From your posts online, you seem very intersectional, but your work is focused on the liberation of queer Black folks, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're elevating the people you're serving above other people, but that's what you were called to do.Kris: Right, I center Black queer trans and intersex folks because there's just such a big question with spiritualists all the time. Is that a safe space for me personally, as a Black queer, trans and intersex person, like, am I going to have to deal with some kind of microaggressive b******t while I'm coming to you for a healing service, you know, It's not that I don't also like do service with cis people. It's not that I don't also, you know, do service with white people. I do, I have a reparations fund and I asked that any white person who benefits from my work contribute to that consistently. Like, so if you are going to take benefit from me as a white person, I need you to be a benefit to my community by sponsoring community healing services and sponsoring products for community members.But I do think it's important as a spiritualist that I do center myself that way to always make it like clear first and foremost to community members who need that heal at work the most like I'm in a safe space for you.Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that makes so much sense to me. Oh my goodness. I'm sure there's like a million other questions I'm going to of later, but...Kris: Do you want me to see if the deck has anything to say?Dalia: Yessss, let's see!Kris: Something just popped out. Dalia: Is that the one that wants to be read?Kris: Yes. So it is the birth key and for people who this is their first time seeing it, they're kind of like flashcards. So there's no books you have to sift through. When you pull a card, it's just going to tell you what it means.The birth key unveils that you can either consciously sit down or get sat down by spirit because you have a new creation to labor into existence. The only thing blocking this creation from coming to you is the fact that you are not honoring your labor and prioritizing your creative baby. Only share your energy with those who can support you in your focus and allow the universe to remove anyone else from your life.Allow spirit to use you in your co-creation process. Creation is spiritual labor surrender fully to this blessing. Focus on your focus and abundance will flow in what follows. Dalia: That might've been specifically for me. I don't know if it's for the conversation. Kris: It’s wild because it's a new moon. Yeah, it was yesterday. So that's manifestation time. So it felt like this feels kind of specific. I don't know. This might be like the perfect astrological time for you to.Dalia: Yeah, sometimes it's ridiculous how many different ways spirit tries to tell me something. And I'm still like, what do I do?I got that message a lot yesterday. And I was like, huh, I don't know. I'm still feeling lost. And now here it is.Kris: Oh, I love that. And I've been loving that with the feedback specifically for Black queer and trans folks about the deck, just like, oh my gosh, it's so straight forward. And that was my goal. I was like, I don't want this to be a super confusing deck.I want it to really just call out the energy so that you can see it like, oh yeah, likeDalia: That's so interesting. There's something about the way that it's written too. And I always, I struggled with this because I felt very disconnected from Black American culture growing up because I was raised in a very white centered church.I didn't get to engage with the music. And the church is such a big part of Black American culture. If you didn't at least get to go as a kid, I feel like you're missing out on a lot of references. There's all kinds of songs you don't know. And then so many of these songs also have messaging that bridges, spiritualism and Christianity.And so I'm always concerned that I won't get it. That something specifically for Black people might just go right over my head. But what I do find is when somebody is more connected to the diaspora in general, and your worldview is expanded because of the queerness and the focus on the trans folks and the intersex folks, that's the language that I understand. Like I maybe wouldn't have understood it if it was written by cis femme Black woman from the US who got to grow up in the church. That she might use language that I'd be like, I don't know the references, but when I've been going through the deck, I find myself asking, why do I feel like these were all written for me?Kris: Yes. And I've heard that from several Black gender expansive folks too, just like this feels really affirming with like language that I can get behind. And that was so the goal I'm so glad.Dalia: Yeah. Thank you so much for making and then modeling for everybody that there's just a lot of stuff that we're here to do, but sometimes you feel like you can't do it because you think there aren't enough people that need it.Like, you know, you could have used it, but you're like, how many of me are there out there more than you think, because people's voices are constantly being suppressed and people are still finding their way to clearly identifying who they are for themselves. Like coming out to yourself first, like you said, as a non-binary person,that is a step. You don't hear people talk about it a lot, but that's like the most important step.Kris: Exactly. And it's a process.Dalia: It doesn't happen just like that.Kris: It's a decolonization process really.Dalia: Yeah.Kris: Just decolonizing your concept of new.Dalia: Wow. That really hits. Where do we go to hear more of this? Where did we go to hear more of what Kris is putting out into the world?Kris: So I have a podcast where I do collective channelings. If it ever seems like s**t is really going to like hit the fan. I dust out my old telepathic hotline with the universe and pull out messages.And that's called The Liberation Station Podcast. you can find me at www.thespiritualabolitionist.com. There you'll find links to the podcast, to my shop, with all my products, including the deck and my art and all my different spiritual tools and the cosmic reparations fund for any white and non-Black folks who have heard this and would like to sponsor healing products and services and emergency funds for community members.All of that can be found on my website. I'm also on Instagram @thespiritualabolitionist and @kriswithakcreates. That's more so like my personal, like splash, just like putting out different creative things that I'm working on. Just for fun for. Yeah, I think that's pretty much everywhere that you can find me dropping my little gems.I try to put out different little like memes and stuff about the, how to handle the astrological weather on my Instagram.Dalia: That's what I feel like is really missing for me. A lot of times they're like a practical approach. There's so much spiritual stuff out there and sometimes it just kind of feels like you're on the receiving end of a fire hose and you're like, well, what should I do right now?Presenting it and in a meme form sounds very digestible.Kris: Yeah, I did a really, I did a really fun one with a living single scene the other day. And I was like, Max equals how I'm going to be this mercury retrograde. And it was a scene where everybody was arguing in the kitchen and Max just walked in and got handed the cookie and got handed a glass of milk and tried to reach for another cookie and just walked out.Dalia: Yeah, this is what we need. This is what we need. Understandable. Something you can internalize. Yeah, we remember Max. I keep seeing all this stuff about the Friends anniversary or reunion or whatever, andKris: you mean white Living Single?Dalia: Thank you. I'm like, oh, that thing that was a derivative form of a show that it just resonates so much more.It's funny because at the time the environment I was in, all I ever saw was Friends. And then I get to watch Living Single, as a binge, as an adult. And I'm like, wow this clearly was first.Kris: I literally can quote every single episode. I'm going to be writing an article at one day where I break down every Friend's episode.That's can you link directly back to a Living Single episode. Stay tuned. Cause that's been in the back of my head cause I grew up in a Friends household too, and I started rewatching it, but I watched living single all the time.Dalia: Yeah. That really says something for anybody who's thinking from an artistic standpoint.Oh, I can't do ... because it's so derivative. But can't you though? Because how successful was Friends? But can't you though? It really depends on who's going to be consuming it in the end.Kris: It's true. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Dalia: Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, not that we want to encourage or validate the constant theft of Black culture.Kris: I was like white folks that wasn't necessarily for you to go appropriating anything.Dalia: If anything, all what I can say is it was on brand.Kris: So true. So trueDalia: Taking, taking, taking, taking, and what I've been seeing so much lately is how both straight Black American culture and white popular culture is just constantly stealing Black, queer cultural things like left, right and center. A friend was telling me about a show that they're enjoying, but I had decided not to watch it because the news behind the scenes was basically like, hey, there were ancestors who put in a ton of time into ballroom that got passed over vs the person we selected, you know, while they're a person of color, they're very fair skinned and they have straight hair, they're not any of the things that the people who started ballroom are. And while they are queer and I'm definitely not invalidating their queerness. It's different to be queer and not engage with the culture. It's not the same.Kris: With a lot of these celebrities that come out and it's like, okay, wait, you definitely aren't having the same experience as a lot of the rest of us.And you're not in community with all these other queer people in the streets, which is where queerness really developed. Dalia: If you were you’d have known to just sit your ass down. When this opportunity came up, if you actually were an active member of the community, it never would have crossed your mind to take this spot from a trans person with dark skin, who has been doing the damn thing since before you were f*****g born. It never would have entered your consciousness.Kris: We have that issue in academia too, with folks who develop those things in academia, who aren't actually in the streets. And don't actually have respect for a lot of the dark skinned, Black, queer, and trans folks who model these accountability, things that you're now making millions off of books about I'm side eyeing somebody with the initials AMB on that one, because your publishing team is really trying to crush it.There even is a story on that with you not compensating, dark skinned, Black, queer, and trans folks whose essays are the basis for your books. And now you're the authority on transformative justice. Dalia: Alright. Cute. It's amazing when you start to hear about the layers. You suspect there's more b******t, but sometimes you don't know, cause it's not the area you function in.That's really interesting to me and I am pan, bi/pan. Pan feels more right now, but bi is what people said a million years ago because I'm old. But I would never presume that I could lead the way in helping dark skinned trans femme folks, get liberation. If there was a show that was specifically for Black trans femmes, I would never think that that was my spot.Or even if it was something that was supposed to be centered on cis gay Black men, because their lives and their experience of homophobia and transphobia is a million times higher than what I experience when it comes to homophobia because people keep assuming I'm straight. I keep having to tell people I'm not straight and I don't have to worry about somebody throwing a brick at me if I'm holding hands with someone who, as people walk by, they think they see an opposite gender couple, it's not the same. So then why would I try and push myself to the front. Kris: Centering yourself in an experience that you’re not living in the streets. Exactly. And you can so tell, but that's why I feel like it's so important that a lot of us just manifest our own s**t at this point. That's so much of why I try to get people tapped into like getting that spiritual support to manifest in your own s**t. I was a Black queer and trans person. You know,Dalia: We’re going to leave it on that note to manifesting your own s**t everybody.Kris: That's pretty much what the birth key is all about.Dalia: Oh my God. I love that.Oh, isn't Kris, just a breath of fresh air. I would love to hear what your greatest takeaways are from this episode. Supporting members on Substack have access to group posts and that is an excellent place to share. I recently decided that social media was just taking so much more away from me than it was giving and because my energy is needed elsewhere.I just decided to let it all go.Now the best way to connect with me online is on Substack.So, if you want to chat about the episode checkout daliakinsey.substack.com and consider the supporting a member option.Substack makes it super easy for you to share episodes that you love. So if you got a lot out of today's conversation and you feel like a friend of yours would too, please be sure to forward it to them.Thank you so much for joining me. I'll see you next time. Get full access to Body Liberation for All at daliakinsey.substack.com/subscribe

Hey Fairy Fam, meet Shontel Anetasia! A a multifaceted 30-year-old Caribbean Longboarder, upcoming Spiritual Author, Photographer & Bruja de Cocina. She's an Apetebi in the Indigenous Afro-Cuban religion, Lukumi & Child of Olokun. Shontel was raised by her Guyanese immigrant grandmother, Joyce, who paved the way for her to be a spiritual practitioner today. In this episode, we talk about the deep connection Spiritual connection she had with her gran, her journey towards entering the Lukumi faith and how African Spirituality helped her with over coming a deep depression she had her really low point in her life. Check out her website here: https://www.shontelanestasia.com/ Links: theafrofairygoddess.com https://www.patreon.com/theafrofairygoddess https://twitter.com/afrofairygodess theafrofairygoddesspodcast@gmail.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theafrofairygoddess/message

Andrew and Willie talk about how it was growing up in the Lukumi tradition. Willie's experiences with Orisha in Cuba, America, Nigeria, and Brazil. They also talk about the nature of syncretization in these traditions. last they discuss a few things to think about if you are looking to get involved in this tradition.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you have listened to and consider if it is time to support it. Money goes first to covering accessibility through transcripts and then to other costs associated with the podcast. You can support it through BuyMeACoffeeor directly via Paypalor in Canada through etransfer to the.hermits.lamp@gmail.com If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe in your favourite podcaster iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or search The Hermit's Lamp Podcast in the service you use.  Google music is being updated within a week of posting this episode.  You can find Willie on his site here.   And Andrew is @thehermitslamp everywhere and his site is here.   Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  The Transcript for this lives on Andrew's website here.       

On today’s very special episode of Songmess we’re joined by New York City-based multi-disciplinary artist, Aja! We’re getting into the nitty gritty details of their brand new album CROWN, their creative origins in ballroom culture and the progressive evolution into the drag artform and a full fledged music career. Some of you may know Aja from their appearance on two different seasons of RuPaul’s Drag Race, but their art encompasses so much more than what was shown on television. We’re also discussing their decision to leave drag behind (at least professionally), as well as the solace and inspiration the Lukumi faith has offered Aja over the past few years. Playlist: Aja - “Crossbow” Aja - “Like Lightning” feat Regina del carme n kaya conky Aja - "Honey Drip" Aja - "White Couture" Aja Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/0fWt4FY87imqsBJpt2QVL0?si=E-Xsm2DiQtegSJvj_rOnBQ Aja Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ajathekween/?hl=en Aja Twitter: https://twitter.com/ajaoxum Richard Villegas Instagram: www.instagram.com/rixinyc/?hl=en Songmess Instagram: www.instagram.com/songmess/?hl=es-la Songmess Facebook: www.facebook.com/songmess/?ref=settings Songmess Twitter: twitter.com/songmessmusic Songmess Merch: https://songmess.threadless.com/ #BOPS Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2sdavi01h3AA5531D4fhGB?si=1c99cf69265343f1 Subscribe to Songmess on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play or SoundCloud, find us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and contact us at songmessmusic@gmail.com.

My guest today is El Conquistador, a music artist who has been taking the Orisha world by storm with his music videos devoted to the spirits of the Afro-Cuban religion Lukumi. El Conquistador joins me for an intimate discussion on his spirituality, art, ambitions, and what motivates him to create in honour of the Orishas. To find out more about El Conquistador, please see his youtube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2pkYjqfjQieKtlrmmgghDw --------- To learn more about Paduka Wellness and Ben Stimpson, please visit: www.padukawellness.com www.facebook.com/padukawellness Please hit subscribe to get updates on future episodes of Essence. ------------ About Essence: Essence is a podcast all about story, journey and self. Released twice a month, Ben interviews individuals about their work, their life journeys and the insights gained. ------------- Copyright information: Title Music: "Wintersong" by Alexander Nakarada (www.serpentsoundstudios.com) Licensed under Creative Commons BY Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/b...​

Today we will be talking about Santeria and other spirituality that was born in the Caribbean. West African religion came to the New World through the transatlantic slave trade. On the island of Cuba two very important religions developed. Our guest is Luis who is in initiated priest in both. Sit back and enjoy the show. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Welcome to the 50th EPISODE of the Orisha Wisdom Podcast!  Yes!  Can you believe it?  This is the 50th Episode!  Wooot wooot!!!  This one is an ANNOUNCEMENT if you are one of these!  Brand new to the Orisha Traditions Do not have a godparent Had a godparent but do not have one anymore Committed to learning about either Lukumi or Isese If you're new to the Orisha Traditions and want better results with our Orisha Traditions but you struggle with dealing with scammer priests or just finding A Priest, then you need "our Live Orisa Traditions Webinar" to get truth bombs about our traditions then listen to this episode and watch the class... as it will disappear in less than a WEEK.     Thank you for watching and listening.   For show notes:  Click here Would you like to support this channel?  Check out my Patreon Page Want more INFO?  Click on the info LINK!     Adupe pupo,  Iya Omileti

In this 2nd part of our interview with Aja, we discuss Kandy Muse a little more. We also talk about Aja's experience on All Stars 3, Chi Chi Devayne, and find out which lipstick Bebe pulled on All Stars 3. Finally, we discuss how becoming crowned in her religion, Lukumi, inspired Aja creatively in the recording of her album. "Crown". (Interview recorded January 2, 2021) Watch the interview here: https://youtu.be/wI9j7ogmvK8 Find Aja here: https://ajakween.com/ Don't forget to rate and leave a review on whatever platform you listen to us. It really helps us out a lot! Thanks! Website: www.thanksforcomingpodcast.com Merch: www.teepublic.com/user/tfcpod E-mail: tfcpod@gmail.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/tfcpod Twitter: www.twitter.com/tfcpod iTunes: apple.co/2Hidocj

Cimone G, creative arts therapist and trained dancer talks to host, Felicia York about the spiritual practice of Lukumi. We also talk self-care and what people you absolutely don't mess with. Take a listen! Follow Cimone on IG: @mango_monie, @seemonielive Follow Felicia on IG: @janeofalltradespod We do not know the rights to this music. Don't sue us! Intro: "Let Me Fall" by Laura Mvula Transition: "Bahia Beatz" by AfroBeat Makers

Eni and Andrew discuss how to approach traditional religions from a place of respect. They explore some misunderstandings and how to get around them. They also talk about the realities of practicing from a distance.  Both share from their journey in two different lineages in two countries. This conversation is important in the wider dialogue of appropriation going now around traditional knowledge.  Be sure to check out the bonus episode on proverbs around this topic for Patreon supporters here.   If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  You can find Eni on her site here or Facebook here.  Andrew is as always here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew Transcript   Andrew: Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Eni Acho, who is an Orisha practitioner and priestess. She runs a wonderful Facebook group, but also ... website's called About Santeria, where there are lots of great conversations about the traditional practices and approaching the traditional practices of Orisha traditions, especially centered in Cuba. I think that given what I've seen more and more online and other places in conversations with people, this conversation about how do we approach a traditional religion as outsiders, is one that I think is really important. Andrew: I think that there's a lot of misunderstandings, I know I had a lot of misunderstandings or misconceptions about what things might be like. I think that these dialogues are important and obviously for my own personal tradition, but I also think that some of these conversations apply to any other traditional religion that you might approach as well. Eni, for those who don't know you, give us the lowdown. Who are you? What are you up to? Eni: Hi. My full Ocho name is Eni Acho Iya, which means the yellow dress of my mother. That's because I'm crowned to Oshun. Oshun is always associated with the color yellow. I was crowned in Palmira, Cuba and my lineage is called Palmira lineage. It's called the countryside or [inaudible 00:01:47] in Cuba to distinguish it from maybe what you might find in Havana or Mantanzas. But Palmira is one of the traditional centers of the Lucumi religion in Cuba. It was founded by the descendants of slaves who were taken to that part of Cuba to work in the sugarcane fields. After they were emancipated, they founded their own town, Palmira. Eni: It has three of the most traditional and oldest Lucumi religious societies in Cuba. The Sociedad Santa Barbara, Sociedad San Roque, and mine, the Sociedad el Cristo which is associated with the Sevilla family. A lot of people who practice Ifa know the name of [inaudible 00:02:30] or [inaudible 00:02:32] famous Babalawo's from Palmira. And that's my religious family, the Sevilla family. So I guess that's probably who I am, religiously speaking. And I've been running this website "About Santeria" for around six years, I think. As an educational website that aleyo's, outsiders can go to, to get basic questions answered. And just recently I created this page you referred to on Facebook so people can discuss some of the ideas. I'd like to invite anyone who's interested to take a look at that and welcome to the community if you decide to join us. It's a good community. I think lots of very knowledgeable priests in there and good conversations are taking place, so I'm happy with that. Andrew: I think it's great. There's lots of really knowledgeable priests, which is a great part of the equation. They're all, at least all the ones that I know, personally or through online interactions, they're all really solid people as well. Which is a really important part of that conversation too, right? Just because people know something doesn't necessarily mean anything anymore. There's this distinction that can happen between those things. That's one of the things that I also dig about that space and why I'm actually hanging out there as opposed to other spaces, where maybe people know stuff, but their character isn't as inspiring to me. Andrew: One of the things that I find really interesting is this idea of the distinction between what's going on now in a general way, and how stuff was a little while ago, or how things still are in certain parts of the world. Right? So you're from ... your practice and your connection, your family is in Palmira. What's it like there to sort of be born there and live there and practice this religion from that place, from a sort of real traditional community structure? Eni: I feel really fortunate to have had glimpses into everyday life there. I've been going there for over 20 years. And because of my work, I've been able to go and spend considerable amounts of time, like three months at a time, six months at a time, because my university here in Washington state has an exchange program with the university of Cienfuegos. And as an academic, that gave me a license, as ... the United States, it's not always that easy to go to Cuba, but because of my academic license, I've been able to go to Cuba pretty often, spend a lot of time there and really get to know the people very well. I've literally seen a whole generation of people grow up and I know what it's like from their point of view to be born there and be surrounded by this community. Eni: And I think it's important for your listeners to understand that this need that we have as outsiders, as people living in a different culture, we're always thinking, "how can I get in to that community"? Or "how can I get into the religion How do I find my way there"? It's always this destination or goal that people are looking for. And the big difference to me is that for people in Palmira, you're already there. You don't have to look for anything. It's all around you. It's in the air you breathe. And that's not to say that every single person that lives in the town is initiated in a religion, they're not, but certainly their neighbors are, or their cousin or their aunt or their grandma, people down the street. It's everywhere around you. And so if you have a concern, if you want to go get a reading done, you don't have to wonder where can I find a Babalow, where can I find a Santero? They're right there. And everybody knows them. Eni: There's a lot of accountability because literally these same people have lived there and their ancestors have lived there for 150 years and everybody knows who everybody is. Small town in Cuba, you don't have secrets. And I think that that makes it a really different experience because I've seen babies in their mother's arms at drumming ceremonies, because our ceremonies, our drumming for example, tend to be open to the public, people who live in Palmira, everybody comes and the whole family comes. So you have babies that can't even walk yet in their mothers' arms who are keeping time to the rhythm of the drum. And they are totally comfortable in that environment and they grow up with that. I've seen four year olds playing with their little stuffed animals, their bunny rabbits and teddy bears, and they're acting out an ocha ceremony that they've seen their parents do. So when you grow up with it all around you, that takes away a lot of the mystery. So it's not secretive. It's not hard to find. It's there. Eni: Our tradition in Palmira tends to be, for the most part, that we don't initiate very young children. Most people, if their family is religious, everybody in their family tends to get initiated, but they always leave it up to the individual to decide once they reach a certain level of maturity. And so typically you'll find people not getting initiated until maybe they're in their early twenties. That's changing. People now are doing more younger children, but we believe that it's not everybody's destiny to be initiated. That has to be something that's determined on an individual basis. But there are lots and lots of families where half the brothers and sisters are initiated, half aren't, and the cousin show up and they help out with the cooking and the cleaning before and after the ceremony. So everybody is involved in it and everybody feels connected to it, whether they're initiated or not. It's very comfortable. It's very organic and natural to just have it there. And that's such a different experience from what most of us outside Cuba. Andrew: I was in Matanzas last year playing for egun, for my godmother, passed away. Some of the things that struck me were, first of all, everybody knows everybody as you say. Right? You know, we're driving around the city with my godfather and he's like, "Hey, pull over" he leans out the window and has conversation with somebody and they'd keep going. Secondly, I don't know about architecturally in Palmira, but in Matanzas there are no windows on the windows, the doors are open. It's hot and you want those breezes. And so we're there doing the formal meal that's part of the ceremony and neighborhood kids who people know, or maybe they're children of people who are there, drift in, say hi, act like kids and run at the back and go and get some sweets or some food-[crosstalk 00:10:08] and they leave. Andrew: We were doing the drum in the front room and there's no ... the window's open and people are just walking by looking. People are walking by and they'll just start having a conversation with somebody who's there that they know. And it's very different than my experience of other things which it's done in somebody's house probably in their basements where do you see it? You don't see it anywhere. Right? As opposed to there. And also, as you say, driving around, you drive around and Oh, is that another drum going on over there? Oh yeah, it is. We should go by, Oh, is that another drum going on over there? There you go. You know? Eni: It's exactly like that in Palmira and it's hard to hide a drumming ceremony when the houses are so close together and all the doors are wide open. And everybody kind of spills out into the street and that interaction you were describing what the kids coming and going and people coming in and out all day. That happens literally every single day. When I'm in Palmira, I feel like I'm sitting in my godmother's house but it's like a train station with people coming and going and just, "Hey, what's going on?" and "anything going on?" And they have, you maybe know this expression in Spanish, radeo bemba, which means word of mouth, how the word spreads really quickly from person to person. So if somebody is going to have a drumming or somebody who's got an ocha birthday party or whatever's going on, everybody in the town knows everybody and they're very likely to just go by and drop in And see what's going on. Andrew: I think that this sort of leads to this idea of what does it look like to, as I said, is what are we looking to arrive in? I mean, really one of the things that we're looking for, whether we understand it or not when we start out is, we're looking to be welcomed into somebody's family. Eni: Yes. Andrew: We are looking to build a relationship and a connection hopefully to the community, to those people. I was at an event, I'd been hanging out with the Orisha community in Michigan where I was initiated 19 years now, 20 years, a long time. And we were having a conversation and somebody mentioned something and I'm like, "I was there when ... I helped make that person, I helped make that person, I helped make this person. I was there when this person was made, but I wasn't made yet". And there's this like longevity of connection, right? Whereas a lot of people sometimes come to these things with this idea that you're going to just arrive and be welcomed in, just arrive and suddenly everything's great or just arrive and you suddenly can get access or get recognized or whatever. But it's not really that way. I mean ideally it's not that way, right? Eni: No, you're absolutely right. And I think that a lot of this has to do with our understanding and we use the words in our religion. We talk about aleyo's, outsiders, strangers literally. And people in our culture tend to find that a little bit offensive. They think that means that they're not welcome. But in Cuba, that's not what it means. We simply differentiate for ceremonial purposes the people who are initiated, the Oloricha's. They have a certain role, a certain function, they do certain things. And if you're not initiated, you do other things and the rules are not identical. There is a hierarchy there. Not based on your worth as an individual or how smart you are or anything else. It's just are you initiated or not initiated? If you are, go in that room, if you're not going the other room. Right? Eni: I think Americans and, I don't know, maybe Canadians as well, people from outside that culture had a really hard time with that because we here in the U.S. where I live, we have such a consumer mentality and we identify something that we want and then we think "I'm going to get it. It's my decision, it's my choice. I'm in control of the process, here's my money, how much does it cost? Here's the money, okay, now I have it and it's mine." And they expect some kind of immediate acceptance or, "now we're the same. Okay. Because I paid my money and I'm just like you." And that is not how it works. Andrew: No, exactly. And that sense of entitlements that can be there is definitely a problem. And I think in two ways. One, as I know you do too, I get contacted by people sometimes who are like, "I need you to crown me" and I'm like, "my friend, I am not ... I don't even know." Why would I choose to incur a lifelong and perhaps more than this lifelong connection with you as being responsible for your spiritual wellbeing and to some extent your practical wellbeing forever, when I've never even met you. You know? So that's the challenge. And then the other side of that, of course, in a world where we're approaching people that we don't know who are not aleyos, but complete strangers irregardless, there's not that community knowledge of you should go see ... whatever, right? It should be because "I think they could be a good person for you, I think they could guide you, this person's a renowned diviner you should go see them." You don't have that connection. Andrew: And so all of these people, no matter what we think we know about them from seeing them on social media, they're all strangers too. And that's where so much of those problematic situations where people will be like, "Sure, yeah, absolutely. You've got the money, just give it to me, we'll be good." And then it's not good because those people on the other side are just looking to take that money and take advantage as well. It's a big problem. Eni: It's a big problem. And I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that people just get too impatient and they want it now. And a lot of times they don't even know why they want it and they don't even actually know what it is. And so the process always, in my opinion, has to be organic. It has to happen in kind of a natural way, right time, right people, right place. And you can't force it. I think that that's the key thing. You're not in control really. It's going to happen when the Orishas and your egun want it to happen. And the more you push and resist and try to get it all to go your way, I think you're just creating a lot of trouble for yourself. Andrew: One of the expressions that ... I didn't have the pleasure to meet your magua but a very famous oricha who's connected to my godparents ... one of the expressions that I hear, they used to say a lot was, "no, no, what you need to understand is, orisha is the boss here". We as people, we have our say and we get to make our choice. And it doesn't mean we have to accept everything or ... it is a relationship. But at a certain points your orisha needs to be the ones that we trust to dictate and to find the right time and space and, and all of those things. It's like the proverb, "every head is looking for its home". Not every little person, not every house, not everybody's situation is in right alignment for anybody. Right? Maybe someone comes to Palmira and they're like, "Oh, this actually doesn't fit for me". And not pushing there, not trying to push ahead one way or another makes the most sense in that situation. Eni: My own experience I think is a good example of that because I went to Palmira for the first time just because I was invited to somebody's house for dinner and I had absolutely no intention of making ocha there. It wasn't even on the horizon for me. I knew about the religion, I liked it, I was interested in it, but kind of from an academic standpoint. And I went to dinner at a colleagues house, a professor from the university and she introduced me to another professor from the university, her neighbor who lived the next block over and he turned out to be the head of the Sevilla family, a familia who was running a casto at that time. Eni: And I just became friends with that family and visited them for years, just dropping in and having coffee and chatting with them. And I wasn't showing up on the doorstep all the time saying, "teach me about the religion I want in help me, you have to be my godfather. It happened in a very gradual way where I started getting readings. I think most of us began that way where we get readings that guide us. Eni: Then over a long period of time, year. Little by little it came out that I needed to get this or I needed to get that. I got my warriors, I got cofa de orula and then it wasn't until I got cofa de orula [inaudible 00:20:06] in eka, was that I eventually needed to make ocha, and that was really stressed. Eventually, one day before you die. And my godfather said, "Think about it. Don't do it now. You need to kind of wrap your head around this and think about what it means and take your time and do it when you're ready". And I don't know, about four, three or four years later, it just happened like serendipity. That's what we're talking about here. These things just kind of all come together magically almost. I got a sabbatical from my university, I got a scholarship, it was a grant, that paid me to go to Cuba to do this research project I was working on and that turned out to be the gear I was able to make ocha because I was able to be in Cuba. Eni: And that's the experience I wanted with those people that I have known for many, many years and it just happened in a very natural way. And if someone had said to me 15 years earlier, "Oh yes, you're going to go to Palmira and make ocha". I would have said, "what's Palmira I don't even know what you're talking about." Andrew: I think that it's, even for me, I went looking for the religion. I had been explore ... doing Western ceremonial traditions and initiatory groups for a long, long time. And I had sort of hit this place where I felt like I really needed to connect with something deep and traditional. I was trying to figure out what that was, where this was in a pre-internet era. It wasn't like you could just jump on Facebook and find a bunch of things. And eventually I found my way to the community in Michigan and even at that, although I received my elekes and my warriors, I still was involved in that community for eight, nine years before I was crowned. I was one of those things like, "yeah, someday you should do that". Andrew: You should start putting aside your money and when you have the money you should think about doing it. One of the things that I noticed with people I have conversations about it now sometimes is they get to the end of the reading and they're like, "okay, but what do I need to receive? When do I need to make ocha?" One of the questions that I often returned to them with is, "well, is your life horrible? Is your life a hot mess? Are you sick? Are you like having horrible problems? You're reading doesn't say you're magically afflicted? Is there something going on? Your life is a disaster and you need to be saved from it". They're like, "Nope". I'm like, "man just keep living your life and as you need things, stuff will surface if you need things". Andrew: And I think that's another thing that, we don't understand. I didn't understand fully myself, even though I was aware of it going into it, is this notion that within the tradition, these things are medicines of a sort. They're there to either provide very specific kinds of guidance or specific energies or to counter specific energies so that we can live our life to the fullness of our destiny. As opposed to being things that we can collect or accumulate or that give us status or those kinds of things. You know? Eni: That's exactly right. That's how I feel about it too. And, and I think it's hard for people to understand that maybe they don't want to hear it when they're so enthusiastic and so determined that this is going to be their path. That's what they want to do. And one of the things that I hear a lot, and I think you do too, is people get frustrated and say, "okay, you're telling me to be patient, but what am I supposed to do? Just sit here and wait?". They want tips, how can I do something to make me feel like I'm moving forward? And so I actually do have some suggestions if you're determined that you want to learn and do more with this religion, I have some kind of practical tips that might get you started. Andrew: I'd love to hear them. Eni: I break down things into little lists, but I think many people begin with kind of an academic approach to it. So they read books and you mentioned 20 years ago we didn't have as many resources as we have now. Now we have the internet, we have lots more books than we used to have. We have all these religious forums on Facebook and many people are offering online classes of this kind or that kind. And all of those approaches are limited. I think that's the first thing I want to stress is that there's nothing wrong with reading books. There's nothing wrong with reading stuff on the internet, but there are lots of buts attached to that, lots of limitations because yes, there are some good books out there. Fortunately, thank goodness people like Willie Ramos is writing really good books on David Brown and other people who have the credentials and the research methodology down. And what they present is accurate and very good and very helpful. And that's always great to read. Eni: But I remember when I first started looking for books on religion, there are some really wacko books out there because now anybody can publish a book. It's all self publishing. You might go on Amazon and look for books and you might find 20 different titles and you just don't know which ones are good and which ones are not good. You can read the reviews but those are always written by somebody's friend and they don't necessarily tell the truth. You have to be careful when you're reading books too. First of all, evaluate the source. Who is this person writing the book? And if they say magic moon goddess has been practicing 300 world religions for the past year and a half and she's the author of this book on Santeria, I would not necessarily consider her a reliable source because if she's not even initiated what does she know about the religion? Eni: But if it says, "Willie Ramos is a professor of history who wrote his thesis on Havana in the 19th century" and whatever, and he has written these books that are published by university presses and published in scholarly journals. For me, that's an indication that those are serious things that I can read. And even after I read them though, I remember when I first started reading some of those books like David Brown's "Santeria Enthroned". It's a great book. Eni: But I didn't understand it. I was reading it and half of what he was talking about I had no idea what any of that meant and it took me years to realize that I was going to have to piece together all of this information I was accumulating and put it into some meaningful pattern because to my knowledge, there's not one book, a Bible that you just go to and it tells you everything you need to know. Every book will tell you a little bit or something, but nobody's going to tell you the whole story and you have to decide how does this information fit in with other things. You have to analyze it. And the same is true, especially on the internet because there is some good stuff on the internet but there's also a lot of terrible misinformation and the religious forums are the same. Andrew: One of the things that's really important to understand is, not only is there not one book that can tell you everything, It wouldn't even be possible, Right? Like the scope of this tradition is so massive. And when you start talking with someone who's an elder [inaudible 00:28:41] they're a knowledgeable Babalawo, whatever right? Someone who has lived in the tradition for such a long time, the amount of things that come up that are just different situations. I was at a ceremony recently and the person running it was like, "Oh yeah, you know what, your name's Oba tilemi right? Because I know the sound for that one." And so they sang the song that relates to my ocha name, which maybe I had heard it before, nobody had highlighted it, but I never pick that up before because there are so many songs for Shango. There's so many songs for everybody. There's so many stories, there's so many pieces and ceremonies and ideas and advices that it just expands in an unbelievably sophisticated way. Eni: They say the more you know the more you realize you don't know. It truly is a lifelong, lifelong process. But reading books is not a bad place to start given all these limitations that I've talked about. Because I think the positive thing about it is that way at least people who are interested and burning and to know something, feel like they have a little bit of control. Like, Oh, I found a book, I'm so excited and that's great, but it's limited. And eventually, like you mentioned earlier, this is about belonging to a community. And so sooner or later you have to get out of the world of books and meet people in a religion. It must be a personal experience and you must become part of a community because you cannot do this on your own. Eni: And you know that's full of challenges as well because then you have to say, how do I meet these people and are they legitimate? Are they going to cheat me? Is this community a good fit for me? You have to consider things like your physical proximity, because if you're like my ocha community is in Cuba and when I made ocha there, I had to decide, am I going to be able to go back to Cuba on a regular basis? Do I have the money to be able to travel? Does my job allow me to go there whenever I want? Eni: You have to really think about these things because if you don't live near your ocha community, you've got to travel. You know that. You also have to think about the language and the culture, and this just completely confuses me. I hear about people who go to Cuba, they don't speak Spanish, they know nothing about Cuban culture. They make ocha, they're there for a week and they go home and then they say, "I don't have a good relationship with my godparent". I'm like,"well, who is your godparent"? "I don't know. Some guy that lives in Havana." Eni: If you don't speak the language, if you don't know the culture, how can you fit in that community? How can you learn anything? And like you mentioned, you also have to consider a character there of the people. Are they upright people? Are they honest people? Do they have good reputations in the community? I've been talking just about the Lukumi practice, which is my practice. But for a lot of people who are at the very early stages, they have to decide what branch of this religion do they want. A lot of people want traditional Yoruba and they want to know about those practices in Nigeria. I don't know about that. I can't teach you that. I'm Lukumi. Andrew: Well I think that's also a whole other branch, right? But the problem remains the same. You and I would likely have equal ... we'd be next to ground zero by just dropping into Nigeria or wherever. I'm just going to go hang out with some traditional people. It's a roll of the dice. Right. You just never, hopefully it's good, but you never know given that every other day I'm befriended on Instagram by a Nigerian Prince wants to help remove the curses on me if I'll just send them a bunch of money by wire transfer. That stuff is out there, it's everywhere. Eni: And not only that, but our actual ceremonies are different and we have the same basic route. But, I only know how to do ocha ceremonies in Cuba and if I went to Nigeria, I'm sure they do it differently. I can't just walk in there as a functioning priest and expect to be accepted in this community because I don't know anything about them and they don't know anything about me. Before you waste time reading a million books on Lucumi, and then you decide I don't really like Lucumi, I want to be a traditional Yoruba. Make that decision first I think. And focus on what resonates with you. Andrew: I think one of the other things that I would say if you're reading books and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well, is the more a book on Orisha tradition talks about what you could do or should do on your own, the more likely I am to think that it's not helpful at all. There are some folks that there where they're like, do this super power Orisha bath and it's like, well, probably not right? These things come from, ideally come from, divination or they come from the ashy of an elder who speaks of where they come from. You know, an Orisha possession.And they don't come from, "huh, I really wish that this was different, maybe I should do this thing", right? Eni: I honestly don't think a reputable priest would write a book like that. I'm sorry, that probably sounds really harsh. But the books that I value ... Andrew: Please, feel free to be harsh, that's fine. Eni: The books that I value are written either from a historical perspective, maybe I'm just a history buff. But that really, really helped me to understand how this religion came to Cuba and how it transformed and who are founding mothers and fathers were and how the religion spread. And having a historical foundation, to me, has just been so valuable. That really helped me. Eni: And I also like books, like the most recent series that Willie is doing where there's a whole book that's just about, Oshun and another book that's all about Obatala and he talks about, these are the songs and these are the prayers, and these are the herbs, and these are the characteristics of Oshun and these are the different roads. That's great. Because it gives you more profound insight into who that Orisha is. But it ... I never ever have found a book helpful that starts telling you, "okay, you're not initiated but you can still throw the shells and learn how to read them and do these spiritual baths and make up all this stuff. And you don't need a priest and you don't need to be initiated". If I see that, I throw that book in the garbage. Andrew: Yeah, that's totally fair. I think one of the things I think is also significant and understanding tradition is one of the things about understanding initiation, especially, well even becoming, just taking on somebody, becoming someone's godparents, you're becoming part of, in a way that lineage, right? That lineage is tied to those people and to those places. My lineage goes back to Mantanzas and when I was there with my godfather, he took me to meet certain people and certain Orishas who are close to the sort of origin of that. And there's this living legacy of those connections from me to my godparents, to their godparents and so on, all the way back to the beginning of this tradition as it stands now in Cuba and then beyond into sort of the, the reaches of history. And that's really significant. That's a really important part of this tradition because without that lineage, in some ways nothing happens, right? Like what happens without that. Eni: That's exactly how I feel. I feel so grateful to be able to go to a place like Palmira and [inaudible 00:37:22] when you go to Mantanzas, same thing, it's like you have a very clear sense of this is where it comes from. I'm connected to this and it gives you such a grounding that it ... I don't even know how to explain it, but it's just really powerful. And I want to connect to something that you said earlier because when you were talking about somebody just contacting you out of the blue and saying, I want you to be my godfather, or please initiate me immediately. Here's the money. I think it's important that people understand that priests have to be selective about who they choose to initiate because it's a big responsibility. Like you said, it's a lifelong commitment. Eni: And if I don't know you and you turn out to be a crazy person, I'm bringing you into my religious family. I'm bringing you into my house and you're going to disrupt everything and make everybody miserable and cause trouble. I don't want that. There really is this kind of trial period and a lot of people who want an immediate access are so put off by that. They'll say, "I went to somebody's house and I asked them to be my godfather and he said, no". Well that's because he doesn't know you and it's premature and it's like you said, why do you need to be talking about making ocha right now? There's nothing to indicate you need that. So this idea that priests should be available 24/7 and a lot of people think "Oh, our religious communities or our centers or wherever we do our ceremonies. They imagine it like some kind of community center or maybe a Christian Church where there's this physical building and there's a little office attached and the priest gets paid a salary and sits there 9:00 to 5:00 and receives people. Eni: And to my knowledge, I have never seen anything like that in our religion. We do our ceremonies in our homes most of the time. And I'm not going to invite a stranger into my home. It's my home. That can really be off putting to people who are new to the religion, but they need to understand that you have to gain someone's trust. They just think they're protecting themselves. Like, "how do I know my Godfather's not a crook and he's cheating me"? Well, that is a concern. You need to know that. But at the same time, the godparent is looking at the potential godchild saying, "is this person a good fit? Do I want to do something with this person"? And people don't like to be judged. They think, here's the money, take it, give it to me. Andrew: No, for sure. I think it's kind of like asking somebody to marry you on the first date. It doesn't make sense. And if the person agrees, well, 99% of the time you should be really suspect about that because that person's got some issues. Go deal with those issues, right? Eni: Exactly. Or it could be like "we have never met, we just know each other from Facebook. Do you want to get married"? Andrew: It's such an interesting modern phenomenon. Right? Eni: Yeah. And another thing that's connected to this that I think is really difficult for newcomers or people who are looking for the way in, is they don't understand that some knowledge in our religion is only meant for priests. It's not open library, here's all the information in the whole world that anyone can access. Traditionally it's been passed by oral communication from generation to generation. You learn it from your elders, you learn it from hands on experience, some information you simply cannot know before you've been through the ceremony yourself. So when somebody comes with a million questions and the potential godparent is saying, "I can't tell you about her. That's not for you to know", Or "that's something only priests do". People get offended by that and think, "Oh, it's secretive they won't share their knowledge". Andrew: I think it's one of those things, and also depending on what we're talking about, I think it's fair for people to ... for the keepers of the tradition to honor the tradition by managing where that information goes. And if they think you're going to be online telling all your friends about this and that and making orisha baths and selling them on the internet when you're not even initiated or whatever, then probably they're going to hold that back as well. There needs to be the evidence of respect over time. Eni: Yeah, for sure. Going back to my little tip sheet though, after the recommendation of get to know people in the religion, sometimes people don't even know how to do that because they say, "where I live there isn't anywhere, It's not visible or I can't find it". So sometimes you have to start with just a wild goose chase in a sense that you might look for some public events that are advertised maybe on Facebook or in your community. Somehow you might look for like a tribute to Oshun at the river that's going to happen on such and such a date and everybody's invited. You make a point to go to that and you can meet some people. Or maybe if you get invited by somebody you know to an ocho birthday party or a drumming, definitely take advantage of those kinds of invitations that come your way. Eni: If you don't know anybody in the religion who could invite you to something, you could even just start with universities in your city or cultural centers, because a lot of times they'll have performances of some kind that's related to Afro-Cuban culture and there might be dance ... Orisha dancing or there might be drumming as performance. There might be lectures, films, scholars who work on that topic. And that's a place that you can meet people. If you just go to the performance or the dance, you might meet somebody who would then invite you to something. So I think that's a pretty safe way to do it if you can find something like that to attend and just keep going. You're going to see the same people showing up and you'll start talking to them, they'll start talking to you. That's a good way to meet people. Eni: Botanicas, a lot of people will say, "Oh, I went to the botanica and I met somebody". I think that can be good. There are some good botanicals, but there are also some shady ones. Andrew: So many shady ones. Eni: Yeah, so many shady ones you have to be really, really careful. You can't just walk into a botanica and assume that the person behind cash register is an orisha, maybe they're not. You can't just go in there and buy a bunch of stuff and ... be very, very careful about the botanicas. It's possible you could meet somebody legitimate there, but it's very likely you're going to meet as a person who wants to scam you. Andrew: The thing is, because I run a store, right? It's not a botanica the sort of sense that it focuses on orisha stuff in that sense. But it's not that dissimilar either. I sell candles and herbs as well as a bunch of other stuff. But I think that that's where also ... do some reading and know what it's really about, and what things are and so on, that you can ask the person some questions and see what happens. Andrew: There was a time where I sold more orisha specific stuff and people would come in and they'd start asking me questions, who were initiates and then they quickly realize, "Oh yeah, okay, this guy's an initiate, he knows what's going on". You could have a certain conversation about stuff and that doesn't need to mean that you need to be an initiate to know about that. But you could be like, "Oh well, where were your initiatives? Who are you an initiatives? What's your lineage? What's your orisha?" or whatever things that can come up and you can gauge things from that person that way and sort of feel them out a little bit. Eni: Absolutely. And by all means, don't walk into a botanica with a wad of money in your hand and say, "I want to get initiated". That's not going to work out well. Or they'll say, "my uncle can initiate you, step in the back room". Go ahead. Sadly that has happened so you have to be careful. Eni: I think social media is similar in a sense that you can be on these religious forums and you can meet some great people on social media. I met you on social media. There are definitely some good connections to be made on social media, but you have to be so careful and don't just put out there, "Hey, I'm looking for a godparent who wants to initiate me". There are also charlatans on social media. You don't know who's who's going to grab you. So for me, the most reliable starting point, Sooner or later you've got to get to a point or you can go get a reading, a consulta. And by that I mean by an orisha or by a babalawo who will use the traditional divination tools of orisha to tell you what's going on with you. I have nothing against taro cards and psychic readings and all these other things. But that's not how you find out what's going on with oricha. Andrew: Exactly. I've created and made an orisha tarot deck that is not for marketing orisha things. It is for exploring and understanding the philosophies and the ideas. Exploring how some of these worldviews overlap in the worldviews of tarot. But if you go and somebody says, Oh yeah, "[inaudible 00:47:51], your Orisha with my taro deck". You should get up and leave maybe even ask for your money back, because it's not what it's for. It doesn't work that way. Eni: I think that finding a good diviner is so crucial. That's to me, a turning point because if you can find a good, reliable, honest diviner, that person is going to be able to guide you. Even if that person doesn't turn out to be your godparent, that person is going to be able to hook you up with the right people if they're a member in good standing and in their Orisha community. I think that having these kind of warning signs to look out for, that's very important. You need to go understanding that if you sit down with a diviner, you've never been there before, the first thing he says is, "Oh my God, something really horrible, your children are all going to die unless you make ocho right now". If somebody starts pressuring you like that and trying to manipulate you and make you be really afraid and you have to be initiated right now, that's a warning sign to me. Andrew: One of the things I think that people ... in life there's not always solutions. But one of the things that I understand now at this point in my journey is I've been through some very hard stuff. Last year my business burned to the ground. It's not easy, life isn't always easy. But when I got a reading about that with my elder, it was so comforting. Even though there's a ton of hard stuff still in front of me, and there are ways of which we can approach difficulties and there are ways in which we can make a bowl, do little ceremonies and offerings or whatever, to make our situation better for almost every situation. And it's one of the things that I think is fascinating and different is that there's not ... sometimes there's a miraculous transformation. Andrew: Sometimes there's something you do and it just turns everything around. But there's always something to do, even in difficult times. Approaching it with fear or putting fear into the other person's heart, it's one of the worst things that I think people could do. Divination should come with solutions as well. Advice to mitigate it. And even if it comes we have this sort of orientation where it comes Okinawa, where it comes ... what you brought from heaven. Meaning you can't change it. But we can use it. You can find ways to mitigate your suffering. You can find ways to fortify your strength. There are solutions. If people are working to make you afraid, it makes me so mad when that happens. So, don't fall for it. Eni: And the solution doesn't have to cost $2,000 all the time. There are lots of solutions that are much less expensive. We always just start out with fresh water, omi tutu and coconuts and fruit and things like that. And a lot of times a simple abo an [inaudible 00:51:13], prepare some rice pudding or [inaudible 00:51:15] or whatever it doesn't have to be $2,000. Eni: I think that if people get to the point where they can find a good divine and rely on that information and understand the process of divination and what it's for, that is definitely going to put them on the path they need to be on. Because as we said at the very beginning, not everybody needs to be initiated. If your life is fine and you don't need to get X, Y, or Z, you don't need it, you're fine the way you are. And you don't need to go into the religion thinking, "I'm going to acquire ... I want to have 30 ori shots and I want to have the fanciest soperas and beautiful decorations. That's great, but that doesn't make you a more devoted orisha worshiper than the poor, simple Cuban who's just got his Orishas in a little clay pot. Andrew: I remember talking to this person and they gave all their money to buying things for their Orishas. And they're like, "well, the orisha is going to give it back to me twice as much". But then they were always broke because they were always spending all the money they got on ... You know and at a certain point you have to be mindful of the realities of these dynamics and even if the Orishas did reciprocate one of their offerings with double the amount of investment or they were so happy they blessed them, that's great. But then when you take that blessing and you turn it ... and you don't put it to use in the way it's intended. That's not helpful either. Eni: It's not all about material wealth either, because we have to remember that this religion came from, for the most part, very poor people. People in Cuba, the old people, a lot of times they didn't have anything. If they could go out and buy one apple to give to Chango on their Orisha birthday, that represented a big sacrifice. That's all they could do. They weren't going to go get a loan to buy something better, but they spent their money buying that apple for Chango and they gave it with love and they spent the whole day sitting there with Chango and praying and singing and receiving friends and godchildren. Those people are incredibly blessed even though materially they're poor, they have a really rich spiritual life. And for the most part they have long life, good health and they would say that their life is going well. Even though from our perspective it's like, "Oh my gosh, you don't have anything, you're so poor". They have what they need. Andrew: I think that it's funny because people have often a very strong reaction to the financial part of the religion, that we have to pay money for these things to happen. And I get it, it's not always easy, it can be a lot of money, especially in North America. I mean really anywhere, any Cubans, a lot of money for people who are in Cuba. Also, it's not just people ... I almost want to say their, despite the way in which money plays such a significant role in the tradition, so many of them are less capitalists than a lot of people are They're less caught up in that consumerism. And so they are way more content with doing things and being a part of things and showing up. Eni: There are lots of different ways to make sacrifice. You can sacrifice your time, you can give your attention, your love. There are many, many ways to show devotion. It doesn't have to all be about money. Andrew: Exactly. Do you have anything else on your list there? Eni: I have a little summary. Andrew: Okay let's hear it. Eni: We've talked for a long time here, it's been really interesting. But first of all, I guess I want to stress that there's only so much that you can do alone. This is not a religion that you can practice all by yourself. There's no such thing, in my opinion, as self initiation. I really don't like it when people just appropriate and steal little parts of our religion and say, "well I don't like that other part. I'm not going to do that, but I like this little part, I'm going to do this". No, you're either in it or you're not in it. And if you're in it, it means you follow the tradition and the rules of your house. You have to show respect that way in my opinion. Andrew: I want to add to that point, I live in Toronto. There are a few other people in the area, but pretty much everybody here travels to do anything of any consequence. There are no Ochas happening in Toronto, there are no whatever. What it means to, even for me, who has dedicated a lot of time to study and to try to learn the tradition and so on. There's so much that you can only learn by watching somebody do it. And whether that's how you peel the stem out of a leaf or whether that's how you put things together in a certain way. There's all this knowledge that it's just deeply practical that nobody would ever even think to explain to you because you would just see it by being in the room. But when you're not in the room and you're reading about these things, you can learn a bunch of stuff, but still doesn't mean that you know how to do anything, which is a really, I think, important distinction to understand. Eni: Oh, absolutely. That was one of my points as well, that if you're geographically isolated from a large Orisha community, you are definitely going to have to either travel a lot or move. I feel so bad for people who say "I live somewhere in the middle of Nebraska and I want to be initiated". Well unless they moved, I don't think that's going to happen unless they can travel a lot. You have to be practical. Some people live in these isolated communities where there is no Orisha community and if they can't travel and can't go anywhere and can never participate in anything, there's definitely a limit to how far they can go or what they can do. Y Eni: You do have to be proactive like we talked about, you have to get out there and look for opportunities and connections, but at the same time you have to be really careful that you don't fall into the wrong hands and you have to be patient as things happen in their own way. Sooner or later at some point you're going to need a mentor. And usually that turns out to be a godparent who can lead you along. You can only go so far on your own. Eni: My final point, and the one that is the most important that I say over and over again, is you just have to have faith that if it's meant to happen, it will happen in the way it's meant to happen and you can't control the process. Andrew: Absolutely. I think that is a great summary and maybe that's a great place to wrap it up. For people who want to follow along more with what you're doing, how do they connect? Remind us of your websites and how do they connect with your new Facebook project as well? Eni: My website is www dot about Santeria, all one word and no capital letters aboutsanteria.com. www dot about Santeria dot com. If people go to that website, there's a little button, click here to contact me, and you can write to me and I'll write back. Or you can go on Facebook and we have the About Santeria page where people can find connections on Facebook to what's on a website. And there's also the About Santeria community forum and that's open to aleyos, non initiates as well as priests and the Lucumi. I'm keeping a focus on Lucumi because I'm not qualified to talk about traditional Yoruba and I want the focus to be on Lucumi. Andrew: Perfect. All right, well thank you so much, Eni for making time to be here. We've been talking about it for a while and I'm really glad that we finally got our time zones coordinated and made everything happen. Eni: Thank you for the invitation. I really enjoyed the conversation. Andrew: Oh, it's my pleasure.

This long overdue episode was record back in the summer.  Andrew and Mal talk about the nature of magic, initiation, religious practice and more. They talk a lot about how to know if you are on the right track and the pitfalls of walking a magical path. The upsides and pitfalls of gnosis. How to become a bishop by chance and much more.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. To find more out about Mal check out Lux-Umbria or hang with him on Facebook here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcription ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am joined today by Mal Strangefellow. And I've been following Mal online for quite a while. And recently, he's gotten into starting a church. And [00:00:17] a lot of the dialogue around that has been very fascinating to me. So I thought that inviting him on to talk about some of these things would be really entertaining because I think there's so many fascinating questions about legitimacy, legacy, [00:00:32] lineage, and all sorts of stuff that people are or ought to be thinking about as they're going about in various traditions right now, and at the birth of something new, seems like a great place to revisit those conversations. So, for people who [00:00:47] might not know you, Mal, give us, give us the introduction. Who are you? What are you about? MAL: [laughing] Oh, wow, um, you know, and I don't mean this to sound, sound like I'm bragging. It's mostly just because [00:01:02] I'm getting older and my memory is lagging, but when you, when you've done, I don't want to say so much, but when you've done enough, at some point, it starts to become difficult to figure out how to answer that question. [00:01:17] [laughing] ANDREW: Sure.  MAL: I got my start in esoterica during the mid-80s. I'm solidly in that, you know, Boomer cusp/early Gen X region. [00:01:34] Went into, went into the army right out of high school, and after that, got it into my head that I wanted to be a Buddhist monk.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  MAL: And ended up doing [00:01:49] that for a number of years. I was a Tibetan Buddhist monk, a novice and, and fully ordained getsu and gelong. After a few years, or early 90s, wanted to go and get a college degree, [00:02:04] went to the University of Oregon--go Ducks!--and you know, discovered that it's a lot harder to be a celibate monk in a university than it is in a monastery! ANDREW: [laughing] Uh huh. [00:02:19]  MAL: Go figure! ANDREW: I imagine. MAL: And ended up returning my vows, and, at that point, just kind of wandered back and forth among a number of different things, sort of exploring [00:02:35] alternate routes of spirituality, continuing to practice magic. Of course, the Internet was really just sort of starting to become popular at this time. You know, we were moving beyond the [00:02:50] text-based, green screen kind of stuff and actually getting a graphical interface to the Internet discussion boards. Alt magic, of course, was going like gangbusters. This is just at the cusp of the, the [00:03:05] infamous Golden Dawn Wars of the early, early to mid-90s, and ended up getting involved with the Golden Dawn. Was--actually, my neophyte initiation in the Golden Dawn was done [00:03:20] with Israel Regardie's handmade tools, and I believe a mutual friend of ours, Poke Runyan, was the keryx for that and gave me his flu.  ANDREW: [chuckles] MAL: So.  ANDREW: That's a magical blessing, indeed.  MAL: [00:03:35] Right? And kind of . . . There was some floundering, I would say towards the late 90s. Got involved in the Temple of Set, stayed there long enough to [00:03:50] be recognized to the third degree, their priesthood, at which, and this, I bring this up because it encompasses sort of a pivotal event for me. James Grabe was [00:04:05] also a member of the temple and a member of the OTO, and at the time, when I actually met him in person, there, he was on the outs with the current leadership. I [00:04:20] mean, he has made, I don't know if I'm saying that right, I've never done any OTO stuff. So. That guy. And I don't know what there was, so I don't know if they were, I think there was some sort of lawsuit or some-- Anyway, they were pissed [00:04:35] off. We were at a conclave, which is an annual temple gathering, and we were in the hotel bar, and just sort of chatting, and you know, I was a second degree adept at the time, and so I was star struck at his degree and [00:04:50] his history. And we were just talking and he was mostly talking. And he had mentioned that he had apostolic succession as a bishop, and one of the things, among other things, that the current leadership wanted from him was consecration [00:05:06] as a bishop for their EGC.  ANDREW: Mm. MAL: And he was basically just inviting them to peruse the fine example of the back of his middle finger on that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And you know, he said, "You know what, basically, [00:05:21] I'll consecrate, you know, anybody else, anybody but them. Right? Hell, you want to be consecrated?" and I was like, "Um, yeah, okay." He's like, "All right, cool." So we actually made a plan for the next night. He [00:05:36] had a suite in the hotel and I showed up and we went through deacon priest and I was consecrated a bishop that night. And it was like, "Here you go. Now, you're a bishop." I was like, "Well, awesome. Thank you." This is [00:05:51] 1998-99-ish and, which, oddly enough feels like, you know, maybe five or ten years ago for me, but . . .  ANDREW: Sure.  MAL: Yeah, I was like, you know, "So what do I do with this?" It was like fuck, [00:06:06] I don't care. Can I say fuck? I can say fuck, right?  ANDREW: You can say fuck. It's fine. Go ahead. MAL: All right, cool. Fuck, yeah. [laughing] He was like, "I don't care," you know, "here's some stuff," and I got like loose leaf print outs, you know, some ideas that he had had [00:06:21] about sort of a Johannite spirituality and you know, I got, you know, an old Xeroxed copy of his succession, apostolic succession, and stuff like that, and I just sort of filed it away and did nothing with it. [00:06:36]  ANDREW: Mm.  MAL: Until I resigned, after I resigned from the temple as a priest. It was, you know, interpersonal political stuff. ANDREW: Isn't it always, right? MAL: Right, you know, it's, there was a group that was up-and-coming [00:06:51] in the temple. They have since been, been purged out, but I was not in that group, and ended up just resigning rather than dealing with all of the, the people bullshit that comes with that, and [00:07:06] in trying to figure out, all right, what the hell do I want to do now? Said, you know, well, I've got these kind of things to fall back on. I wonder if I could do this? And so I pulled out all of James's stuff and decided [00:07:21] you know what, fuck it. I'm, I'm a start a church!  And that's how the Apostolic Johannite church was founded, [laughs] and I ended up posting on a couple of message boards online at the time: "Hey, are [00:07:36] you interested in an esoteric organization and an esoteric church?" And got a couple of hits. One of the very first ones was, of course, the current patriarch of the AJC, and you know, the rest there is history. [00:07:51] I ran the AJC for a couple of years, and at that time, kind of felt like I had some unfinished stuff that I wanted to do elsewhere. Plus, [00:08:06] I feel like, at least for me at that time, it took a different personality to run things than it did to start them, and I didn't know that I had the personality to keep that [00:08:21] thing going, and I feel justified in making this statement, you know, in hindsight 20/20, but just in looking at how well they've done, you know, since I, since I handed it over to Sean McCann, their current patriarch, you know, I think [00:08:36] it's the, like the largest, fastest growing international gnostic church on the planet right now, some crazy crap like that.  ANDREW: So. Let me ask you a question.  MAL: Yeah, yeah! ANDREW: Cause you've talked about so many things here and I want to . . . MAL:  I know, I'm sorry.  ANDREW: No. No, it's [00:08:51] why I had you on, I want to have these conversations and I love hearing you chat. What, what kind of personality does it take to run these things? Because you know, I've, you know, I've been in my share of, you know, I was in the OTO [00:09:06] in several different groups that all imploded or exploded. And I was in the Aurum Solace for a bunch of time, and change of leadership and it, you know, my local group was excommunicated. And you know, I [00:09:21] was in the AA for a while and there are various, you know, things with that, that just left me, you know, with nowhere to go. What is it, you know, and I've seen my share of that in the, in the Lukumi traditions as well, you know, different places. [00:09:36] What does it take to run a thing like that well? Because I feel like there's, you know, what I've seen is, there's, like, if there's a strong personality and they can kind of hold it together with their personality, [00:09:51] that works until it doesn't, until they leave or retire or whatever. What actually does work? What makes sense when it comes to sort of bigger organizations around that kind of stuff? MAL: You know, I think you [00:10:06] kind of hit on it with the, the big personality, not in that that's the answer. But in that, that's not the answer.  ANDREW: Mm. MAL: I think a strong personality, a willingness to get shit [00:10:21] done, to say, you know, what, screw it, we're going this way. We're doing it. Like that's the kind of personality you need to start something, to really get it going, to gather people in, to inspire other people, but to keep it going, [00:10:37] I think you need somebody a lot more conciliatory.  ANDREW: Mm. MAL: You know, somebody, somebody who is open to, willing to, desirous of working with other people and incorporating them into the, [00:10:52] the, the living, you know, the daily life of the organization, a strong personality. You know, again, I think it's absolutely necessary to get a thing started. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: [00:11:07] You know, there's just so much inertia there, at the beginning of anything that you need to build up a certain amount of momentum to, you know, to, to overcome initial obstacles and you know, nothing kills [00:11:22] momentum faster than a committee meeting.  ANDREW: [laughing] Especially if not much is already happening. Right?  MAL: Right. Right! You know? So you need that strong personality, but after you reach a certain point, I think that strong personality [00:11:37] becomes detrimental, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And if you don't have it within you to drop that and become more conciliatory, then you're just kind of a, you know, you're kind of a bully, you, you end up with, you know, strong personality clashes [00:11:52] with other people who, you know, who might be able to come in and do amazing things. Yeah, I think of . . . Okay. So, a perfect example of this going back to where I was and where Sean McCann was at the beginning of the AJC when I handed things over to [00:12:07] him . . . You know, he was, he'd only been a bishop for like a year.  ANDREW: Okay.  MAL: You know, I'd consecrated him and, to be fair, I had even gone, like right after his consecration, [00:12:22] I went on vacation!  ANDREW: Uh huh. MAL: Like six months! [laughing] And I was like, you know what, I just need a break from all of this. I'm tired. You run things. Call me if you need to, but I'm out for a while. So, you know, really, even that first six months, he [00:12:37] was kind of running things. Because of his age, and because of his natural temperament at the time, you know, sort of, you know, not really sure of himself, [00:12:52] not wanting to make a mistake. MAL: Okay. So the current primate of North America for the AJC, Mar Thoma, was a bishop with [00:14:07] another organization who came into the AJC. We had become friends while I was still there, but he officially joined the AJC after I left, and he is a very strong personality. But he's also [00:14:22] been, you know, has been just an amazing asset for the church and, you know, in looking back, I don't know, like, would I have given him the same opportunity? You know, when you've got those, the [00:14:37] two alpha dogs clashing, right? The, you know, the two strong personalities, would, would the same results have come about? And I'm not so sure that it would have, you know? I think by me stepping out and by Sean coming in [00:14:52] and having that, that natural conciliatory manner and welcoming him in, [coughs] excuse me, as a, another leader. I think that was a huge part of their success. And so, what does it take to run [00:15:07] an organization? I think it takes the ability to find, to find that in yourself, to realize that, you know, you know, it's not all about me.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: If I care about this, if it's going to run, I need to, I need to be conciliatory. [00:15:22] Does that make sense? ANDREW: Yeah, I think so, for sure. MAL: Oh good, cool. ANDREW: Because you know, yeah, a lot of people just . . . A lot of what I've seen is, it gets to a point where people are just like, look, it's my way or the highway, and then you know, and then you just [00:15:37] have, you know, whatever, right? Like, like the thing around the apostolic succession, where they're like, will you please give this to us? And be like, absolutely never, you know, like you just end up in these things where it's so stuck that there's no, there's no movement possible, right? You know? MAL: Right, right. ANDREW: [00:15:52] Mm-hmm.  MAL: Yeah, and you know, when you lay down something, like it's my way or the highway, you end up with a ton of fantastic people choosing the highway. ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: And, and you're left with, you know, just the, the sycophants, [00:16:07] and what happens to your, the organization, then? I mean, you mentioned your experiences in the Aurum Solis, and I remember, you know, when Leon proclaimed it an all Christian organization [00:16:22] when he was still, you know, Grandmaster. And, you know, it was that, this is it, it's my way or the highway. This is what we're proclaiming.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: A bunch of people chose the highway! [laughing] You know, and then he kind of pulled back from that a little bit and then [00:16:37] somebody else took over and then [garbled right before 16:43] Anyway. Yeah, I think that that's a perfect example of what you were talking about. When you have leadership like that, [00:16:52] things tend not to grow organically and even if they do survive that personality, that type of personality, they don't survive the end of that personality. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure.  MAL: When that person dies or, you know, [00:17:07] converts to evangelical Christianity, and says, you know unicorns are bad or whatever. [laughing] ANDREW: Sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think it's interesting. You know? I also think it's, it's interesting how . . . I wonder how, [00:17:22] contrary to what people might think, that that sort of more conciliatory aspect actually works to sustain the teachings versus dissipate them? MAL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Because what I see where there, where there's no [00:17:37] or nominal flexibility, is then there's these sort of backlashes and waves that come back and forth, right? You know, the new group comes in and you know, they're, they're all, they're all into witchcraft, and that's it. And if you're a Christian, you're [00:17:52] out, right? In response to the Christians who are like, "Well we're Christian," you know. And especially in a group like the Aurum Solis that, at least sort of in its heyday was so founded on research, you know . . . I mean, I think that, you know, what's, what are you losing, [00:18:07] you know, by these massive sways, right? So, yeah. MAL: Right, right. You know and also you get, you know, you get buy-in from everybody when, you know, regardless of the kind of organization, right? Whether it's a business or a teaching [00:18:22] order or a church or . . . You get buy-in with conciliatory leadership. You know, people feel like they have ownership, you know, they have a stake in it, and so they care about it. Whereas if it's just: here it is, [00:18:37] it's my way or the highway and then you know, well, okay, it's your way. It's never my way at that point, no matter where I am in the organization. If I'm not on top, it's never my way. It's always, I'm doing their way and you know, we as people, we [00:18:52] tend to like our way . . . [laughing] ANDREW: Well, and especially more magically inclined people. Right?  MAL: Right. Yeah. ANDREW: You know, I think there's, there's a tendency towards ego, you know, not necessarily in a bad sense, but just ego, that [00:19:07] doesn't really, if it's not addressed in some capacity, you know? So, how did, how did you find the transition of, how did you sort of manage that transition from Tibetan Buddhist practice, which [00:19:22] is pretty, you know, which is very structured, you know, to, to kind of your other practices, which sound like there are through lines, but they weren't as rigid? If that's fair. [00:19:37]  MAL: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. [lost words--exception?] about that. Yeah, you know, actually, I think it was . . . Being on sort of those diametric poles was beneficial to me. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, as structured and rigid as [00:19:52] Tibetan monastic life was, the Temple of Set, on the other hand, and I think why, why I enjoyed and sort of embraced what they were doing so much was because there's so much [00:20:07] more open, right? You know, you show up and one of their, their primary tenets from The Book of Coming Forth by Night is, you know, "the text of another is an affront to the self." You know, so, every, initiatory degrees, you know, [00:20:22] okay, it's time for you to be recognized as a second-degree adept. They don't confer initiations. They recognize after you've achieved something, and then they say, okay, well now, go write that initiation ritual, you know, go [00:20:37] do it. Go create it, you know, come up with your own, you know, have it, have it . . . You know, don't, don't just pull crap out of your ass, you know. There, there's, there's a very scholastic aspect to them. I think when I, when I [00:20:52] joined, I got a binder that was like, and I'm holding up my fingers. Nobody can see them. [laughing] It's like an inch and a half to two inches thick and the vast bulk of that was a reading list. ANDREW: Mm. MAL: You know, so, and part of recognition [00:21:07] is, their recognition process is, go out and read these books. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: Go out and study this material. Go find more and then come back and tell us what you think about it, you know. You know, so there's this, this, this scholarship and then this production [00:21:22] and it's really, you know, and I don't want to give the impression that it's this loosey-goosey kind of thing. But it, it is very different from the structure that I experienced in Tibetan Buddhism. Right?  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And [00:21:37] I think I tried to incorporate some of that in in my later work and it's still something in my own personal practice and when I'm working with students, it's still something that even down to, you know, giving them offhand a reading [00:21:52] list. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And saying, you know, pick, pick six books, or pick three books, or whatever. Read them all from different categories, and then come back and let's talk about how, you know, what [00:22:07] material from this book on this topic and this book from this incredibly different topic. How do they play together? ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  MAL: And what do you get from reading both of those back-to-back that you wouldn't have gotten from reading either one separately, [00:22:22] right? In isolation. What, what new comes out of that? And I think that's sort of been, that came out of that experience, of strict rigid practice with, with Tibetan Buddhism and then the [00:22:37] more open, but, but scholastically-informed Setianism, like, like this kind of was born out of that, and I think that has been, regardless of what I've done since, sort [00:22:52] of my, my entire method of, approach for things.  ANDREW: Mm. MAL: Does that make sense? I really feel like I'm just rambling on . . .  ANDREW: No, no, not at all. It totally makes sense. MAL: Okay cool.  ANDREW: I mean, for me I kind of went in the opposite direction. You know, I was doing ceremonial [00:23:07] stuff, you know, throwing some chaos magic, and you know, all that kind of . . . different things and then I'm, as I moved into Lukumi, and you know, the Orisha tradition that I got initiated in, it's, [00:23:22] there are just ways that things are done, you know. MAL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And so it's been a move away from, from that kind of structure and a stepping into that structure, and what I see is that so many people struggle with that axis. MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: You know? Like, you know, [00:23:37] for people to accept that there is a way that things are done, or, you know, in light of a tradition, the way that things are done, and that that part isn't [00:23:52] subject to conversation so much is very difficult for a lot of people, you know? MAL: But it's also a really important experience, I think. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, I went from the founding of the AJC into East Asian esoteric [00:24:07] Buddhism, tendai [spelling?], and from their Korean Zen, you know, Seon Buddhism, and those are both, I mean, you don't get more rigid than the Japanese. ANDREW: Right.  MAL: And, but there's a purpose for that. You know, they, [00:24:23] there's this idea that when you take all of these people together and you force them to do this sort of thing, this sort of way, we kind of polish our rough edges off. ANDREW: Mm. MAL: You know, and if everybody was just allowed to go off and do their own thing, [00:24:38] you would never find your rough edges, you know, and so in practicing tendai [spelling?] Buddhism and then in going through, you know, the Zen Buddhist koan curriculum, that was, it was very rigid, there's a way [00:24:53] you do it. There's even an entire different language almost for going through koans that if you don't, if you don't know it and if you don't do it, you're not going to pass. You're not going to advance. You know, it's almost [00:25:08] like learning that language, which is both, you know, poetic and performative. You know, there's a physical aspect to it. But learning that language is what allows your brain to operate [00:25:23] in the way that it needs to operate in order to get the insight that you need to get.  ANDREW: Sure.  MAL: You know, there's no book that you could read that, that, that, you know, could tell you that. There's a story out of Daido Loori's [00:25:38] place, Zen Mountain Monastery, back when he was still alive. They had a book with all the answers to the koans in it, and somebody stole it. And one of the head monks was like, you know, ran up to Daido Roshi and was like, "Hey, you know, somebody stole the book. What are [00:25:53] we gonna do? What if they publish it?" And Loori Roshi was like, yeah, don't worry about it.  ANDREW: Mm-Hmm.  MAL: The answers aren't in the book. It doesn't matter what was written down. The answers aren't in the book.  ANDREW: Yeah.  MAL: The answers are what we see in front of us. It's like, you know, I live here in Cincinnati. [00:26:08] And, if you read a ton of books about Cincinnati, but had never been here, and then tried to pass it off, you know, in talking to somebody that was born and raised here, they'd know pretty quickly you're full of shit. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know? [00:26:23] Whereas if you've both, you know, if you've been there, if you've visited there, if you're talking about "oh, man, you know, did they finish the construction over on . . ." or you know, all of that sort of stuff that just, you know, then they're like, "oh, yeah, yeah, you've been there." So I think . . . [00:26:39] There's definitely value to "this is the way things are done" for a lot of traditional things, just because, if you don't do it that way, you don't get the experience or have the effect that it's supposed [00:26:54] to provide, you know?  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. Well, it's why, you know, my experience of memorizing tables of correspondences when I was doing ceremonial stuff, you know? MAL: [chuckles] ANDREW: I mean, on the one hand, it's like, well, why memorize [00:27:09] it, there are books, but on the other hand, it's, it preloads your cognition with a framework that stuff that wants to work within that framework can then work straight through . . .  MAL: Absolutely. ANDREW: As opposed [00:27:24] to, you know, having to attempt to bridge that gap without that extra framework there, you know? MAL: Yeah. Absolutely. ANDREW: It's possible, anybody can have a vision of, you know, take your pick, and that might be authentic and whatever, but It's [00:27:39] a lot rarer and it's really atypical, as opposed to sort of the, you know, that that more you've done the work, [lost words at 27:48? sounds like "you're fed up"?] and now they're going to show you a thing in this way.  MAL: Absolutely. Well, and you know, putting on my clinical [00:27:54] psych hat, in the middle of all of this I also went on and got various graduate degrees in psychology. We know that the thoughts that we think change the physical structure of our brains.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, and so, memorizing [00:28:09] tables of correspondences, it's not just putting information in your head so that you can have it at quick recall. It's literally making a physical change to your brain. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: Is that physical change necessary? Is that, [00:28:24] you know, an integral component to the experience that you're trying to have? I-- Maybe not, but maybe it is, and if that's the case, if it's not just about being able to have something on immediate recall, in which case, you know, why don't [00:28:39] I just load, preload 777 on my phone?  ANDREW: Sure.  MAL: And then if I, if I need to know a correspondence, I'll pick it up. But you know, if it's not just about having that piece of information, but if it's about the change that it's affecting in your brain that is allowing [00:28:54] you to maybe perceive or experience, you know, something, then, you know, by not doing it, you're either never going to get there, or, like you said, it's going to be really damn rare that you get the experience that, you know, that [00:29:09] you're hoping for. ANDREW: Yeah. I think the, the, you know, the real answer is, the magic is in many, many parts of it, right? MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: And not just in the quote unquote secret word that activates the ritual or what, right? [00:29:24] MAL: [laughing] Exactly! ANDREW: It's got so many parts of it that that are not, they're not necessarily glamorous. They're almost never talked about overtly in books or in other contexts, right? MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, I almost never see anybody talk about [00:29:39] that when I read a book about magic. It's like "yeah," and then you just like, do this thing and it'll happen. It's like, oh, maybe, maybe so.  MAL: [laughing] Yeah. Sure. It's just the magic word. You just say the word, the word.  ANDREW: Well, the bird is the word, right? That's where we'll go with that? MAL: [laughing] [00:29:56] Yeah. Well, I was going to say, Aidan Wachter recently made a post that I think brilliantly comes to this point and it was a . . . Oh, how did [00:30:11] it go? [sighs] See, I brought it up. Now I should at least be able to remember it, but it was along the lines of you know, the vast majority of success comes from mastering the basics.  ANDREW: Yes. MAL: Not from some advanced, you know, rarefied thing, you know, [00:30:26] and he was coming from it from both an esoteric and a physical, you know, point of view. And I thought it was brilliant when I saw that. ANDREW: Yeah. I remember that post. He was basically sort of saying like, you know, sure, some super custom tailored [00:30:41] fancy technique might get you this extra increase, because--it was coming from a fitness training point of view, the article that he linked to--but the reality is, you know, showing up four days a week and you know doing the basic things, [00:30:56] that's going to get you almost everything and the other stuff is, you know, especially over the arc of time, right? So.  MAL: Right. And that applies to so much of what we do, right? Just showing up and doing the basic stuff. And . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. [00:31:13]  MAL: Oh crap, there was, where was I going to go? There was . . . ? Eh, never mind. It'll come back to me if . . . [laughing] ANDREW: Let me ask you this question, then. So . . .  MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: We've popped out this term a couple times here and there: gnostic.  MAL: Okay. ANDREW: What is, [00:31:28] what does that mean to you? What does that mean? You know, like I hear it a lot. I've seen it a lot. You know, I mean, you know, Crowley talked about it a bunch, you know different people talk about it, you know, there's the knights cathars and you know, all that stuff or whatever. [00:31:43] But what does it mean to you? What does it actually . . . What's the relevance of it at this point in time? MAL: Sure. Well, so first off a caveat, I . . . Technically, I don't even really identify myself as gnostic any more, [00:31:59] which, I suppose is actually kind of peak gnosticism, itself. ANDREW: We live in a post gnostic era? MAL: Right. And I'm glad when you asked, you asked, you know, "What does gnosticism mean to you?" Because it is [00:32:14] a . . . I mean it's . . . We apply it retroactively to a lot of ideas, right? None of the ancient texts, like none of the Gnostic Gospels say, "And I am now writing this Gnostic Gospel."  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: Or, you know . . . [00:32:30] Gnosis, for me, the way, the way I learned it, the way I taught it, and the way I experienced it, gnosis is knowledge as opposed to [00:32:45] information. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And specifically, it's that, it's that noetic apprehension that comes after the sort of die neue [spelling?]. [00:33:00] After the intellectual information gathering and crunching and . . . It's an apprehended knowing, you know, in the spiritual sense. More mundanely, it's just knowing [00:33:15] right? It's eating peanut butter rather than having somebody read off the ingredient list of peanut butter to you. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The experience of it.  MAL: Yeah, you can never tell somebody else what peanut butter tastes like. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  MAL: You can taste it then and then from then on you will forever and always [00:33:30] know what peanut butter tastes like. And that is, you know, exponentially different from knowing what goes into it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  MAL: And, and so, in a spiritual and in a magical sense, then, gnosis is [00:33:45] that experience, just like we were talking about, that experience that comes from doing certain things.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, and, and it's specifically that experience that can only come from doing certain [00:34:00] things as opposed to just reading about them. Whether that's a, you know, an in esoterica or spiritual, religious, and, and oftentimes those are blended. You know, you can read about an experience [00:34:15] of the divine. Or you can have it. I think one of the most underappreciated esoteric texts out there is by St. John Chrysostom, in defense of the hesacasts. So hesacasts, heretic [00:34:30] Orthodox, not heretic but almost, near heretic Orthodox sect, who practiced hesachasm, this, this mystical combination of the Jesus prayer kind of a yoga position and breathing [00:34:45] technique that they said would allow you to experience the energies of the divine.  ANDREW: Hmm.  MAL: In fact, you know, advanced practitioners of this were said to literally physically glow, like they would just glow in the dark. And this got [00:35:00] a lot of bishops' panties in a twist and John Chrysostom wrote this brilliant defense of them, basically laying out theologically why this, this theosis, this knowing of [00:35:15] God is not heretical. You know, they're not saying they can know God, because you can't wrap a finite mind around an infinite thing, but you can experience, right? Can you hear that humming right now?  ANDREW: [00:35:30] No, from your side? No.  MAL: Yeah, so, my mic, I'm going to flick it real quick. [thump] I fixed it. Sorry, I've got a loose connector there. ANDREW: Uh huh. MAL: But, you can experience it. You can have an experience of it and he likened it to a number of different things. [00:35:45] One of them was, you know, sitting in a ray of sunshine: you know it, you can experience it. It's not all of it. Nobody's saying it is. But that, that's gnosis to me, [00:36:00] that experience.  ANDREW: So, let's, I'm gonna ask you a really unfair question. Okay? MAL: Okay. Sure.  ANDREW: So, how do people determine what is different [00:36:15] between an authentic gnosis with something, with a spirit, with god, with wherever, and a more [00:36:30] psychological, or, you know, even intellectualized engagement with it, you know? Because there's so many people who have experiences of different things, and you know, going back to your, your Zen stuff [00:36:45] and to your Tibetan stuff. There are very clear things that are markers, right? For what's an authentic experience, you know, and I even remember when I was in the Aurum Solis, I came to my teacher and I was like, I had this, I had this experience [00:37:00] with one of the archangels, and they showed up in this way. And he's like, "Great," and then he pulls out a piece of paper and shows like, pulls out a book from his notes about it and shows me what I saw. He's like, that's, that's [00:37:15] because you're, you've moved beyond your own cognitive stuff being in the way of that connection.  MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: You know? So, how do people know that, though? How do people even begin to work with that if this is a new idea for [00:37:30] them? MAL: You know, it's, the easiest way is having a teacher, right? ANDREW: Sure. MAL: There's the famous story of Gampopa and Milarepa, his, the yogi Milarepa, who was Gampopa's meditation [00:37:45] teacher and at that time, you know, the Tibetans generally don't meditate in groups. They don't do silent meditation. They get the instruction. They go away, they practice, then they come back. And Gampopa came to his, Milarepa after some time practicing, [00:38:00] and he's like, "I don't know what's going on, but I'm beset by devils constantly. This is what . . ." And Milarepa was like, "Just chill out, keep doing the practice, that that'll all go away." A few months later, Gampopa comes back again, and he was like, "Teacher, you're, you're so right. It's amazing. [00:38:15] All the devils were chased off. Now. I'm visited constantly by angels and dakinis and it's just wonderful and it's bliss." And Milarepa was like, "Uh huh, that's cool. Just keep practicing, that will go away."  ANDREW: Sure.  MAL: You know, having that that teacher that can that can guide you . . . [00:38:30] You know, in Buddhism, especially in Tibetan Buddhism, emptiness, shunyata, big deal, and having an experience of emptiness is a big deal. Like this is [00:38:45] one of the major mileposts and the literature is just scattered with warnings about, you know, don't intellectualize this, don't intellectualize this, because [00:39:00] when you do, when you get an idea in your head of what that experience is, you reify it and then you're stuck, right? You're stuck with that idea. And you think "Oh, I have had this experience and therefore . . ." You know, and without [00:39:15] sort of that external verification by somebody else who's been there, right? Without talking about Cincinnati with somebody who's also been there, you know and confirm: Yes. Absolutely. I know exactly the street corner you're talking about, or you know, whatever, you can easily [00:39:30] be led astray.  How, how does somebody working on their own do this? Well, that's tough, you know, at that point, I think you have to, [00:39:45] I think initially approach, you know, unverified personal gnosis, UPG, with skepticism. ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: You know, I think that has to be the default when you're on your own, no matter how amazingly lifelike and 3D [00:40:00] this apparition was, or like, initially approach it with some degree of skepticism, keeping in your mind, well, this could just be wishful thinking or this could be, you know, whatever, [00:40:15] and then give it time, right? If it was a teaching, if it was a practice, if it . . . Does it bear out? ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: Are there, are there, are there are external things that coincide with it? If you . . . You know, you're given a vision of this, you know, amazing new practice [00:40:30] and then the very next day somebody randomly starts talking to you about, you know, a symbol which is exactly like the linchpin for that practice or, you know, you know, somebody brings you something that you [00:40:45] specifically need in order to . . . You know, you look for confirmation still from outside, even if it's not from a specific like teacher in a lineage of a thing . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You're still looking for that external confirmation. [00:41:00] And it may not be for years and years and years that all of a sudden something happens and then it clicks and you're like, oh my God, I had that dream, you know, three years ago about this and then here is this . . . [00:41:15] Holy crap. This is a, you know, okay, then you go with it. But no, if otherwise, if somebody shows up and just says, "hey, you're the chosen one," or you know, you're yet another incarnation of Alistair, or you know, whatever, [00:41:30] you know, maybe keep that in your back pocket. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that that time will tell, right? MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: Time will tell. We'll see if this holds the test of time, for sure. MAL: Right, you know, and you can have, I think, amazing personal experiences that are meaningful [00:41:45] to you.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: That you never say anything to anyone about or do anything with. And that's okay.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: They don't have to be huge revelations. Or they don't have to be, you know, even if it was something that was just the product of your own mind, [00:42:01] maybe it's useful to you. But again, yeah, I think that in order to tell the difference between genuine, a genuine experience of gnosis, like that, yeah, it's external confirmation. ANDREW: And so, [00:42:16] that brings back sort of one of the other questions that I wanted to check in about: what role does lineage play, for you, in all of these things? I mean, I know in my Lukumi lineage, you know, lineage is everything. You know? I mean [00:42:31] you are, you are, in that, in my tradition, you are initiated into the lineage. MAL: Right. ANDREW: You know, lineage becomes your family, and, and that changes so many different dynamics because of it. You know, it's not just like, it's not just [00:42:46] about the information that was passed from person to person, but it's actually the license to practice certain things, the requirement to practice them in a certain way in accordance with lineage, and a connection to all of those spirits who carried that [00:43:01] lineage forward, you know? MAL: Right. ANDREW: So it's a, it's a very living dynamic thing. What role does lineage play for you? And, and what do you see as its sort of values and challenges? You know?  MAL: Wow. [00:43:17] I'm going to cheat and refer back to something that I wrote a while ago. ANDREW: Which is always welcome.  MAL: Okay, cool. I tend to think in terms of three different kinds of lineage for any organization.  ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: Physical lineage, [00:43:33] practice lineage, and, you know, ultimate or primordial lineage, right? Which, so, and what do I mean by these? The physical lineage is just the people, the stuff, right? The boots on the ground, the people doing the thing, the [00:43:48] buildings, the, you know, the institution. The practice lineage is the stuff they tell you to do. Right? These are the, these are the teachings that ideally have been, you know, tried, [00:44:03] tested, passed on, initiatory aspects of initiatory power, right? That are meant to facilitate things. Obeah or apostolic succession. These are all conferrals of a power [00:44:18] meant to facilitate something. Sorry. I'm going to thump the mic here again. ANDREW: I think you might be picking up on the, someone's running a shop vac or something downstairs. I'm also hearing that in the background.  MAL: [00:44:33] Then I'll trust it's on your end and not mine.  ANDREW: Yeah.  MAL: So, yeah, the practice lineage there. And then the primordial lineage is what you're ultimately connecting to via these three things, [00:44:48] right? So, the physical lineage exists primarily to transmit to the people it brings in. The practice lineage, which then facilitates connection to the [00:45:03] primordial lineage. And, you know, the first two exist ultimately . . . They function only to the point that they do those things, right? If at any point a physical institution loses its connection [00:45:18] to the primordial lineage, they're dead. Right? It's just a, it's a fossil. It's a club. It's a, it's, you know, it's cosplay or whatever. If the practices [00:45:34] no longer facilitate connecting you to that primordial lineage, then they're not doing their thing, right? They don't work anymore.  But then once that connection to the primordial lineage is made, at that [00:45:49] point, new practice lineages and new physical lineages can be instituted. Without that connection, they can't be. You know, this is, this is one of those things that, like in Buddhism, people, [00:46:04] there's this idea from people outside of it. For example, tons of sutra is attributed to the Buddha, but he, you know, we know historically he didn't say these things. The Buddha didn't write that. The Lotus Sutra isn't taught by the . . . But no, technically, yeah, he did, because [00:46:19] within . . . You know, the game rules of Buddhism state [chuckling] that there is only one Enlightenment, right? Buddha means awakened. Once you have had that experience, right, once you're connected [00:46:34] to that primordial lineage, there's no difference between you and Siddhartha Gautama, right? So, if you have legitimately had that experience within the game rules, you can write something today and [00:46:49] say this is a text by the Buddha.  ANDREW: Mmm. MAL: And that's, you know, 100% legit. There are institutions [00:47:06] where I think you can bypass some of this, but I find them to be so phenomenally rare. Right? The person that just [00:47:21] stumbles upon either a practice lineage that works to connect them to a primordial lineage, or, or, you know . . . Okay, a big example of this, you know, with what I'm doing now, apostolic [00:47:36] succession is a huge thing. Right? There is a conferral of authority and power with that, without which, none of the other sacraments will be there. Period. Full stop. Yet, [00:47:51] within broader Christianity, very few people question the legitimacy of Paul as an apostle. Because in the middle of his, you know, previous [00:48:06] life as a, and I don't know if you can hear the air quotes I put around that, [chuckles] as a, you know, assassin for hire, he had this vision, on, was it, the [00:48:21] the road to Emmaus? [He means Damascus. The road to Emmaus is where Jesus appeared after his resurrection.] I think. Anyway, he had this vision of Christ and he converted and now he's an apostle.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And I think most, most people in the broader Christian world: "Okay, we'll accept that." You won't find any apostolic lineages, [00:48:36] I believe, tracing themselves back to Paul. I'd be surprised if you did, but you know, nobody lists him as an apostle with an asterisk by his name, kind of thing. ANDREW: Right. MAL: But you also then don't hear about this happening [00:48:51] all the damn time.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, nobody spontaneously . . . Well, damn it, okay. The gnostic revival in France in the 19th century, [laughing] Jules Doinel. Yeah. Okay, he claimed it. But then, even [00:49:06] he went on to get actual apostolic succession. So. You know, I think it's rare. It's more rare than people think.  ANDREW: I think there's a big difference between a connection to spirit, [00:49:23] you know, and even a spirit that might have, you know, like, you know, I mean, I'm certainly not the reincarnation of Crowley, but perhaps, perhaps I could connect to his spirit in a way, and his, his Spirit could act as [00:49:38] a guide and an animating force in my work, you know?  MAL: Absolutely, yeah. ANDREW: I'm not saying that that happens per se, but, but that could happen. And that is not uncommon, you know. MAL: Right. ANDREW: [00:49:53] Like there, there are lots of things you know, where . . . MAL: But, when those things do happen . . .  ANDREW: Yeah.  MAL: But when that does happen, there's a lot that preceded that.  ANDREW: Yes. MAL: Right? It doesn't, it doesn't happen to, you know, the random grocery [00:50:08] store clerk who has, you know, never even picked up a copy of book four, or you know, whatever. Right? ANDREW: For sure. And, but that experience is also not necessarily the same as the experience of the [00:50:23] connection to that primordial, you know, energy or the current even though if I was connecting to Crowley, I'm connecting to you know, the prophet of Thelema, that doesn't mean that I'm actually connected [00:50:38] to that step behind that, you know? MAL: Right. Right. ANDREW: And I think that . . . I think that's also an interesting distinction, you know, and that's where lineage and traditional initiation facilitate that.  MAL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, because you may connect to that current, possibly, as you [00:50:53] say, there are examples, but I think there's a big difference between connecting to a spirit that engages your work and guides you and something sort of one step further beyond that into that lineage, that [00:51:08] deeper force, you know? MAL: Right. And, and access to one aspect of a lineage also doesn't necessarily confer access to another aspect of lineage. So, for, you know, I have [00:51:23] apostolic succession via the episcopi vagantes, you know, right, the wandering bishops. And we may trace our lineage, you know, even up into, you know popes in Rome, but that doesn't make me [00:51:38] a Roman Catholic bishop. Right, that's the physical institution, and even though I might have access to both primordial or, you know, both practice and primordial lineage there, that grants me absolutely no standing whatsoever in the physical, you [00:51:54] know, lineage kind of thing, which is something I think a lot of people tend to forget, especially in the independent sacramental movement. They tend to not get that these things are [00:52:09] . . . They're disparate. They're separate. They're discrete things. Yes. Generally they're connected and hopefully, you know, if you get involved in one, it is, but yeah, if you stumble across it, if you just happen to meet up with some guy in [00:52:24] a, you know, hotel bar in Ontario and get, this sounds so bad now that I'm saying it out loud, get invited back up to his hotel room to get consecrated as a bishop one night . . . [laughing] Great. [00:52:39] You know, that doesn't mean, you know, you can show up at the Vatican and be like, you know, where's my room?  ANDREW: Like, yeah, that dude. He initiated 50 people that week. Come on!  MAL: [laughing] Right? [00:52:54] Yeah. So. It's, you know, lineage is, lineage is important. And, you know, I'm sure you could make the case that even though I'm breaking it down into three different things that you could say, well, they're really all the different aspects of the same thing, [00:53:09] and you could probably break it down even, you know, you could break it into four different aspects or two or whatever. But you know, in general, I think, for those three reasons at least, lineage is important, especially [00:53:24] in religious, spiritual, and, and esoteric bodies wherein the point is connection with something higher, with that primordial aspect. If, you know, if the point is just [00:53:39] education, then, you know, lineage is, you know, by-the-book kind of. Like the modern grimoire revival. There's no living lineage, you know, Solomonic lineage that's [00:53:54] passing this kind of thing . . . No, it's: you find the book, you, as best you can, decipher what the hell they're talking about.  ANDREW: Uh-huh.  MAL: You do it as best you can and you hope like hell you have an experience similar to what they said you're going to have. And that's [00:54:09] kind of it. The book, at that point, is the lineage until, you know, you make that connection. The book then is the practice lineage. There is no physical institution, you know, physical aspect of it. And then, you know, hopefully you do the practice until [00:54:24] you get that that connection that then continues in your work. You know, I think a physical institution could happen, but it's not necessary. So I guess even in that [00:54:39] sense, there is a lineage or just accessing it through the information that's passed on through both having the right book, having the, the brains to figure out what the hell it's saying, and then having the guts to follow through and do what it's saying. [00:54:54]  ANDREW: Yeah, I mean I tend to look at some of that stuff as more, more technological, right?  MAL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: Like, I mean more in that second realm of the practice.  MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: Than the lineage, because I think [00:55:09] that you can, to some extent, plug some of that into whatever lineage you, you might have access to, right? Or whatever sort of primordial elements you would have access to, you know? MAL: Right. ANDREW: When I was very interested in those kinds of things, [00:55:25] you know, I was, I was not interested in the Golden Dawn. I was very interested in Thelema. And, so I would just go through and swap out all the words, you know, the words that weren't Thelemic for words that were Thelemic and do work in that direction, [00:55:40] and then use that, that sort of connection to that primordial juice and that piece of it to you know, you know, call up whomever and be like, hey, listen, by the power of Babylon you're going to do this, or whatever . . . MAL: [laughing] ANDREW: You know, and, and [00:55:55] I think that's possible, because it's, it becomes, the grimoire stuff can be more technological maybe than sort of lineage-based necessarily.  MAL In general, I tend to think tech is tech. [00:56:10] But you know, then again there are lineages where, without having the appropriate lineage, it doesn't matter what knowledge or information you have, it's not gonna work, or it's not going to work the way you want it to. You know, when you look at, [00:56:25] you know, Tibetan Buddhist magic, or just Tibetan Buddhist practice, you know, if, if you're, if you don't have the empowerment of a particular deity, the practice is at best ineffectual [00:56:40] and at worst dangerous, because you're in effect, you know, trying to contact these, these powerful personalities and they don't know who the hell you are.  ANDREW: Right. MAL: Right? It would be, it [00:56:55] would be like showing up at, I don't know, pick a, pick a powerful, a famous powerful person who could be dangerous to you. I immediately, I don't want to make this political, I immediately think Trump. [laughing] [00:57:10] Not that you can, anybody, I don't, you know what? I'm not even going to go there. Um, but yeah, you pick a person with temporal power. All right, prime minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau. He seems like a really nice guy. [00:57:25] Right? I mean everybody in Canada seems so super nice to us here in the hinterlands, but I bet as nice as he is, if I went to Canada, and I saw him on the street, if I came running up to [00:57:40] him at full tilt saying, hey Justin, let me . . . You know, trying to get . . . I'm thinking there's some people that would tackle me to the ground.  ANDREW: Exactly. Yeah. MAL: You know, and so, you know, the empowerment, that connection to that lineage at that point is the facilitation of that contact, right? It's somebody [00:57:55] coming in who has that connection, somebody who's saying, hey, you know what? Let me introduce you to my good friend, Mr. Trudeau. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  MAL: And then, once they facilitated the introduction and we've shared a couple of drinks or whatever, at that point, you know, I can then, you know, wave from him [00:58:10] from across the street and maybe he'll remember me and then we bump into each other, you know, that sort of thing.  ANDREW: Sure.  MAL: And, and I'm absolutely convinced that Tibetan Buddhism can't be the only place where something like that is, is [00:58:25] required, where if you don't have the hook-up, if you don't have the official connection to that lineage through the prescribed means, you know, best of luck to you.  ANDREW: Yeah, yeah. Something might happen, but who's [00:58:40] to say what it is and yeah, how it's going to go.  MAL: Yeah. And whether or not you wanted it! [chuckling] ANDREW: Exactly, exactly, for sure. So, we've been, we've been chatting for a long time, because this has been really lovely, and I want to ask you one more question before we wrap it up though. [00:58:55]  MAL: Sure. ANDREW: Because there's one other thing we haven't gotten to, which I was delightfully enjoying on your Facebook, which is these various statements of gnostic belief, [00:59:10] you know, or the sort of, you know, where you're discussing how you believe in, you know, this, the fallen angel, and the energy that comes with that, and how you believe in Christ in this way, and how you believe [00:59:25] in, you know what I mean? If we think about the apostles' creed, we have a very clear example of a statement in that direction, but you know, all sorts of traditions have their own. But your seemingly contradictory, [00:59:41] from some people's perspective, ideas about the nature of the universe, really both sort of tickled my fancy . . . MAL: [chuckles] ANDREW:  And, [laughing] if that's, if that's not a weird thing to say and reflected [00:59:56] a bunch of my own kind of contradictory or apparently contradictory notions about it. So I'm curious what, what you were looking to do as you were expressing that and sort of what kinds of beliefs you have around, [01:00:11] you know, the nature of the universe in that kind of construct.  MAL: In general, I have a very dim view of belief. [laughing] I think they're very dangerous things, people ought to stop having them. ANDREW: Uh-huh. MAL: [01:00:27] And when I post that . . . I think one of the worst things that ever happened to the world was--and this is ironic, I think, coming from me--is Christianity and its emphasis on creeds. You know, Christianity was weird for any number of things, when it arrived on the [01:00:42] scene, but one of the things that it was most weird for was that it was a creedal religion. It was, you know, it pivoted around what people believe as opposed to what people did. It wasn't performative. And, you know, this idea of having right belief [01:00:57] then is something that came into play and, you know, I think history has shown us what a dangerous thing requiring right belief can be. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: And then determining that. When I post [01:01:12] shit like that, and I feel absolutely justified in calling it that, a lot of times it's just to kind of work out for myself what's been bouncing around in my head, what's going on at the time, [01:01:27] and also looking for a little bit of that sort of external verification, right? If everybody responded with a what are you on? or did you not sleep last night? or is that . . . You know, then I know, okay, this is maybe a little bit out there, but then when I get responses [01:01:42] like, you know, that really tickled my fancy, or you know, that's a sign that, okay, you know, maybe, maybe I might have figured a little bit of something out, or maybe I might have glimpsed a little bit of something here. And I think [01:01:57] having creeds that don't fit together nicely works together well for me. And by creed, you know, having beliefs that are paradoxical, that, that aren't, you know, that are sometimes juxtaposed [01:02:12] against each other, is beneficial. I mean, it goes back to, I think what I was talking about with my own sort of practice, where you know, you take these two disparate things, you take these two different books, two diametrically opposed . . . See what comes out of it. [01:02:27] See what, see what you make from it. And I think a lot of times, the thing that makes something paradoxical is really just a limitation of our language. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: You know, [01:02:43] I get a lot of, I think I get the most push back, for example, with the Church of Light and Shadow, which is, you know, my newest endeavor, because I talk about the morning star and people [01:02:58] are like, well, okay, you seem to be implying that this is both Jesus and Lucifer, which is it? And I'm kind of like well, yeah, you know, we have this tradition that Lucifer is the Fallen Angel. However, [01:03:14] there's only one figure in the Bible who ever identified themselves as the Morning Star.  ANDREW: Mmm.  MAL: That's Christ in the Book of Revelation. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: You know, and the more I sat with that and their specific [01:03:29] roles and functions, especially the. you know, not, not the, not the Satan of you know, the HaSatan or you know of, the opposer of . . . ANDREW: Or Anton LaVey.  MAL: Right. Yeah, but this . . . [01:03:44] more the Lucifer of Milton and Dante, and, you know, the very popular romantic Promethean myth of Lucifer that we have today. That is very much a Christ figure [01:03:59] when you look at the role that Christ played. Right? Christ did not show up and be like, "You know, what? All right, everybody just do what the temple priests say, and follow . . ." You know, he was very much an ego-driven [01:04:16] individual. I mean, we can consider the gospels as spurious as we would like as far as whether or not this figure, Jesus, actually said these things. But the [01:04:31] one thing that you know, like when you get to, like the Jesus scholars, that came together and try to figure out well, what's most likely that he said? One of the things that they had pinpointed as most likely coming from Jesus, based on what we know of the context, and what got passed . . . [01:04:47] His doing away with the old law and saying, "A new law I give to you," right? "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and love your neighbor as yourself." [01:05:03]  And what people gloss over here is, it's not saying, love your neighbor, which by that he means that everybody, right, love everybody else. He's not saying love them more than yourself. He's not saying debase yourself before . . . He's saying love them [01:05:19] as yourself. And if you don't love yourself a great deal, you're gonna be shitty at loving anybody else.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, how Luciferian is that? You know, he . . . [01:05:34] And so looking at these two figures in that way, looking at them both as, as light bringers . . . You know, in fact, it was really, it was not until I looked at [01:05:50] the gospels and teaching of, teachings of Jesus from a Luciferian perspective, that they really started to make sense to me. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: Does that make sense?  ANDREW: It does. It does, for sure.  MAL: And so, I think there's, [01:06:05] there's, there's definitely something there, and this, this perspective is not new. I did not make this up. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: This idea of having a, you know, a sacramental Christian Church practicing [01:06:20] folk magic is also not new, you know, magic and Christianity have been tied together for as long as they're . . .  ANDREW: Catholics everywhere. Right?  MAL: Right. Yeah. I mean, I think I commented recently on Facebook that you know, if you're not ready to accept that Christianity [01:06:35] is a weird necromantic cult, then you're not ready to study church history.  ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: But when looking around for this, you know, for something that really embodied and [01:06:50] embraced that, I couldn't find it. There's nothing, you know, like there's, there's, there's nothing out there. There are Catholic witches that are, you know, going to mass, and you know, practicing in private or in secret, [01:07:05] and there are Christian witches, but there's no organization that's embracing both of these things. And the more I kept looking for this, and the more I kept posting, you know, both things like, you know what? I believe this and I believe this and the more [01:07:20] feedback I kept getting from people saying, you know, yeah. Yeah, me too! Where's that from? This ought to be a thing! ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And you know, I'm a firm believer that we have enough independent apostolic [01:07:35] Christian churches running around. I don't know how familiar you are with the independent sacramental movement, but in general, you know, you end up with jurisdictions of one, somebody belongs to a church long enough to get consecrated a bishop. [01:07:50] And then they're out of there so they can go do things the right way. ANDREW: They had a great experience while they were in Vegas from somebody they met in the bar.  MAL: [chuckling] Right? Next thing, you know, then they're off.  ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: You know, and so, I get in trouble, I get [01:08:05] people in the independent sacramental movement angry with me when I tell them, you know, look, if it's really about the mission, like you say it is, you would stop what you're doing, find a larger church that's actually already doing this, and doing it a lot better because they've got the bodies [01:08:20] and the resources, and you'd join them, you're doing this just for the title. And so I was, I was loathe to start yet another church. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know.  ANDREW: Well, and I think just before [01:08:35] you move past that point, too . . . MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: And I think there's also value in doing a thing like becoming a bishop for yourself.  MAL: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That's great too. ANDREW: You know, I mean, many many Orisha practitioners become priests for their own [01:08:50] well-being, you know, and that's fantastic, but be clear about that, and then go from there, you know.  MAL: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, you know, I went for years ordaining people and limiting their faculties. [01:09:05] So, when you're ordained a priest, you receive faculties or permissions from the bishop that tells you what you can and can't do, basically. And I would ordain esoteric practitioners who just [01:09:20] wanted that, that plug into apostolic succession for their own spiritual and magical practice. And I would, you know, I would tell them well, okay, great, but without any sort of pastoral education, I'm not going to license you [01:09:35] to do any sort of pastoral work. [laughs] You don't get to go start a church, you can say mass in your home privately, that sort of thing, that's fine. Just go be a private priest. And it took a lot to move me away from that [01:09:50] and, and decide, okay, you know what? I think I am. I think there's enough momentum around this to do something about it, to found it. I'm a firm believer in, if you have an idea for something great, and nobody else has done or is [01:10:05] doing it, maybe that's a sign it's supposed to be you. And after poking around and getting enough encouragement, I decided all right, screw it, we're going to do it. But if we're going to do it, this is how it's going to happen.  ANDREW: You'

Interview with @krossroadking.321, a Priest in the tradition of Lukumi, about the Orisha, the religion, and issues with the trends on social media and the ATR's

Welcome to the section of the Orisha Wisdom Podcast called Ask A Priest - Have you ever had a burning question that you'd like to ask an Orisa Priest? This is the perfect way to get some answers to help you on your journey. The question for today is "I'm sort of new, and I read a lot.  I want to know which one is better... Lukumi or the Traditional?" Listen to this episode to get the answers....  Want to the show notes?  Just... go here!   Odabo! 

Negarra A. Kudumu works simultaneously as a healer, essayist, curator, and independent scholar of contemporary art. She engages with pre- and post-colonial artistic and spiritual outputs of West and West Central Africa, the Americas, and South Asia. She is interested in cultural products as evidence of in tact connectivity to indigenous knowledge systems and pre-existing non-western cultural canons. Negarra investigates the ways in which contemporary makers continue to adapt their ancestral knowledge and technologies - consciously and subconsciously - and (re)invigorate generative discourses around art, trauma, healing, liberation, spirituality, and sexuality. Negarra earned a BA from Dartmouth College and her MA from Leiden University. She holds the title of Yayi Nkisi Malongo (priestess) in the Brama Con Brama lineage of the Afro-Cuban spiritual tradition Palo Mayombe. She is a lay practitioner in the Pimienta lineage of the Afro-Cuban, Lukumi spiritual tradition. Negarra is also a level II Reiki practitioner and herbalist. She lives and works in Seattle where she is Manager of Public Programs at the Frye Art Museum. Learn more here - Social Media - IG: @negarraakudumu, Twitter: @negarraakudumu, FB: facebook.com/NegarraAKudumu  Mike Wagner, Mike, seated exposed breast (hyper sexualized), 2018, oil on canvas, 48 x 48 inches. Image courtesy of artist. Lina Iris Viktor, The Dark Continent Series, No 09, 2016. Image courtesy of Mariane Ibrahim Gallery

Rebecca and Andrew talk about the way plants work in their lives – through sharing about their studies and personal journeys with plants. They also talk about fear and how pushing through that brings better things even though it isn't easy. Finally they also talk about traditional knowledge and how to respect elders an indigenous people.  Find Rebecca at BloodandSpicebush.com and the classes at Sassafras-School.com Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcription ANDREW: [00:00:01] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast episode 93. I am here with Rebecca Beyer, who is an herbalist and plant person and does all sorts of wonderful things in that environment. For [00:00:17] those who don't know you, Rebecca, give us . . . give us a quick introduction. Who are you? What do you . . . what are you about? REBECCA: Hi! I'm about, I guess, I'm about Appalachia and I'm about plants and [00:00:32] I'm about traditional witchcraft. That's like those three things. I think. ANDREW: Yeah. Well, if people don't know what Appalachia is . . . REBECCA: Yeah! ANDREW: Let's start with that, because maybe not everybody does.  REBECCA: That's so interesting and [00:00:47] I love that you all are up in Canada. So it's really cool to to know, you don't know what Appalachia is! [chuckling]  ANDREW: I mean, I think people . . . I do, but yeah, let's, let's just make sure nobody has to go Google anything mid-podcast.  REBECCA: That's such a good idea. Yeah, Appalachia is a region, [00:01:02] which is debated, that's cultural and ecological in the Eastern side of the United States. It's a mountain range that extends from, culturally, I would say, you know, Western Pennsylvania through Northern Georgia, [00:01:17] but mountain-wise and ecologically through a few different regions on the Eastern Seaboard, kind of inland. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: So, this big mountain range, the Appalachian Mountains. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And there's a lot of spiritual tradition that's [00:01:32] kind of from that area, right? Like a lot of, sort of more folk magic and you know, those kinds of approaches, right? REBECCA: Yeah, that's one of the things that I am a student of and teach is Appalachian folk magic, and [00:01:47] I'm very passionate about . . . and especially where plants and plant lore come into that story. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So did you grow up with that or did you find your way into it? Like how did that come about for you? REBECCA: That's a good question. I did not grow [00:02:02] up with it. I grew up on a farm in New Jersey. ANDREW: Okay. REBECCA: And, yeah . . . and halfway in both states. And it's funny cause when I tell people I'm from New Jersey, they're like, "Oh, you're not, you don't seem like you're from New Jersey at all," and I'm like, "Are you saying like, I'm not an asshole," like what? ANDREW: [laughing] REBECCA: What are [00:02:19] you saying? I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on the air. ANDREW: I'm sorry to everybody in New Jersey who's listening to this. Yeah. REBECCA: Well, I'm sorry, because I like, you know, I had a beautiful upbringing in a very pretty little country spot in central New Jersey. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I [00:02:34] loved our little farm, but we didn't raise plants. We just raised animals.  ANDREW: Okay. REBECCA: But I've always loved, I feel like since I was a little girl I wanted to be a witch. It was just something I've always been interested in and I was raised in the Unitarian Universalist Church. [00:02:49] So I met a lot of witches and it was easy to start studying witchcraft seriously. At around 12, I kind of dedicated myself to studying it and, through that, became more interested in plants and realizing that they could be used for more than food. [00:03:04]  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. And, so how did the head of the Appalachian part come in? Like, did you meet somebody, did you like, you know, go stand on a mountain and be like, oh, this is home. Like . . . ?  REBECCA: That's a good question. [00:03:19] I was obviously a very weird kid as we've, most of us probably were. ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: And very socially isolated. We moved nine times when I was a kid, so I didn't have strong connections with other human adults till I was 18, when I moved to Upstate New York to go to college [00:03:34] at Bard College, and I met my now best friend Sarah Lynch Thomason, who's an Appalachian ballad singer, who's from Nashville, Tennessee. And she moved to Asheville right after we graduated from college. She graduated ahead of me, and she was like, you [00:03:49] HAVE to move here, Asheville, North Carolina, like, it is what's up. So I just packed my truck with all my things and drove to Asheville. And--after I graduated from college--and I just lived in her living room for two weeks. ANDREW: Right. REBECCA: And then I just fell [00:04:04] in love. I tried to leave, once, I think to go back up to Vermont where I had been living before, and I think that lasted like three weeks and I came back. So that was in 2010 when I moved here. So I've been here for longer now than anywhere I've ever lived in my life. ANDREW: It's [00:04:19] interesting how, you know, like I think about . . . I mean, Vermont's got lots of mountains. Upstate New York's got lots of mountains, you know? It's funny how, you know, from a geologic point of view, anyway, there's [00:04:34] this like, oh look. Well, it's all mountains. What about . . . what is it about those mountains? What is it about that place that drew you in or captivated you?  REBECCA: That's a good question. Well, I think, geologically speaking, the Appalachians are so special, [00:04:49] because they're some of the oldest mountains in the world, which we forget in America. We often like to excoticize--and I'll say North America, to include all of us on this continent--like to exoticize things from far away, but we have some of the most ancient land masses [00:05:05] in existence right at our fingertips, and it's pretty incredible. And plant communities that are very unique. And to me, the extreme biodiversity of where we live in southern Appalachia, where I live is temperate [00:05:20] rain forest. So we have more plants than anywhere except for North Alabama, which has the most diverse plant life in the United States.  ANDREW: That's amazing. REBECCA: Mm-hmm.   ANDREW: And did you find . . . do you feel like . . . You [00:05:35] know, like, lots of people talk about sort of spirit of place, right? as a thing that's sort of emerged into people's awareness more over time. And you know, at least more recently from my perspective. REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, do you feel that that's part of it [00:05:50] for you? Like is there, is there a spirit of the land where you're actually hanging out that's, that's part of your life?  REBECCA: Yes, my friend Marcus McCoy who started the Veridis Genii Symposium . . . ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: When I was [00:06:05] early 20s--you probably know him--when I was in my early 20s, I stumbled across his blog, Bioregional Animism, and it really changed . . . It gave me words for things that I had felt but I didn't know were names for and other [00:06:20] bloggers have now gone on to further that idea, which was, you know, kind of coined, I'd say in the 70s with the rise of bioregional scholarship, on just like, policy and land management.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: They took it deeper, you know? I [00:06:35] wrote a lot of my thesis--I have a master's degree in Appalachian Studies--and I wrote my thesis on--which is really silly, I know. But I looked a lot at like the history of bioregionalism and like what makes Appalachia and regional studies important. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And [00:06:51] to me, in this globalized world, you know, we struggle for meaning, you can see it everywhere. Especially white folks, like without any cultural, strong cultural ties, will grab onto any strong cultural tie from any culture that [00:07:06] we can find. And yeah, and I think a lot of that comes from a lack of grounding in place. So to me, I do think there is a spirit of Appalachia. My friend Byron Ballard, who's a well-known Appalachian folk practitioner, she, in our area, says there's [00:07:21] a mother Appalachia, this kind of an entity that makes this place so special. And to me, I'm also a musician, I'm an artist, and all the things I do revolve around Appalachian folk practice. And to me, it's like helped me ground in, because [00:07:36] I wasn't raised here . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Into the life way and the art way and the music way of this place. And not necessarily say, this is mine, it's from me, but wow, I participate in this, and I love it, and I want [00:07:51] to, you know, support it and continue it and nurture it.  ANDREW: Yeah. I think it's always interesting when people, you know, or never mind people. For me, you know, I mean, I found my way into being a Lukumi, you know Orisha [00:08:06] practitioner, right? You know, so, I'm initiated in an Afro-Cuban religion, you know, and that's, that's been my journey for, you know, getting towards being 20 years now, you know, but I think that it's really always interesting when people are looking [00:08:21] for that meaning and they find it somewhere else. How do you go about exploring that and connecting with that, in a way that is, you know, respectful, meaningful in a broader context, because it's . . . [00:08:36] I think that you know what people do in general, even if it's not respectful, might be meaningful to them personally, you know, but problematically culturally, right? But what do you think about . . . how you know, how, how would you recommend people approach this [00:08:51] kind of stuff if what you're talking about is something that they're drawn towards?  REBECCA: Yeah, I think that's such a good question and it's a sensitive one. You know, there's . . . I always notice that I feel fear and I feel nervousness when [00:09:06] talking about these things, because, unfortunately the way that people communicate online is very different than how they'll communicate in real life. [laughs] Discovered . . . I just taught a class, this is a great example, and I think will answer this question, on [00:09:21] the uses of fumatory plants worldwide to address cultural appropriation issues. ANDREW: Sure.  REBECCA: Because, specifically with white sage being overharvested, and a lot of indigenous Western folks saying, hey, can you guys slow your roll on this, you know? buying all this unsustainably [00:09:36] harvested sage? [laughs] ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: So, like, why do you feel the need to burn this plant specifically, when it's not part of your cultural lineage? And I don't think anyone at this point in the world is like, you can't do anything that's not from your specific ancestry, because I mean I have eight different ancestries. [00:09:52] You know? And it's . . .  ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA:  Most people do. And, and, and I think that's not what people are saying, and a lot of folks get defensive, and say, "Well, what, am I not allowed to do anything?" and it's like, "No, calm down. [laughs] No one's telling you that." And I think what you're doing when you're initiated in something . . . [00:10:07] Initiation is an invitation. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: If you are studying with a person from that, you know, Afro-Cuban lineage, who's saying, "You're welcome here, come into this space." That's very different than when someone says, you know, "I'm gonna self study [00:10:22] this thing, and then declare myself an expert and then make money off this thing . . ." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And never study the cultures that this thing comes from. ANDREW: For sure.  REBECCA: Yeah, because what I do, I'm not technically Southern Appalachian, but I practice and teach Appalachian folk magic. And some people, I'm sure, would take issue with that. But [00:10:37] what do I do? I think it's all about how we how we raise up the cultures that we are benefiting from. How do we support them? How do we not try to speak for them and do the like white savior thing? And like, how do we invest [00:10:53] ourselves in the continuance and preservation and nurturance of the cultures that bring us such joy and meaning. And I include myself in that even though, technically, Appalachian folk culture is largely based on some things I have cultural access to. It's also based [00:11:08] in Cherokee and African traditions. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure.  REBECCA: That have direct lineage too, that I need to respect and call attention to.  ANDREW: Yeah, and that's an interesting thing about a lot of those, you know, Appalachian, you know, root work, hoodoo [00:11:23], like a lot of those, sort of, you know, from there, heading further south, traditions are really such an interesting meld of, you know, of cultures, right? REBECCA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW:  You know, they're, they [00:11:38] involve stuff that came from Africa through the slaves. They involve stuff that came through the indigenous communities that were there alongside those people, you know, and then they have a mixed in, you know, depending on the region, [00:11:53] you know, European Christian or other folk traditions too, right? Like it's such a . . . it's such an interesting meld and I think that it's so helpful to really respect the fact that they come from a bunch of different places. They [00:12:08] come from all those lineages, you know?  REBECCA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah, because it's easy to, like, it's easy to be like, well, you know, this is just like this person's thing or this is that person's like . . . They're diverse and their strength [00:12:23] comes from that history, right?  REBECCA: It's true. It's true, and it's great talking to my friends who are hoodoo practitioners, and saying, you know, the first time I met my friend Demetrius, who I don't know if you know, from New Orleans at [00:12:38] Veridas Genii Symposium. We were kind of like doing a comparison like, what do you, do you do this, in hoodoo?  And he's like, well, do you do this in Appalachian folk magic? And it was just like, such overlap that we were like, of course, these things are so similar. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And it was wonderful and then we were like, "Let's sing a Scottish [00:12:53] ballad," you know, and like, because he does a lot of ballads. And then I'm like, let's, you know, he's like, "Do you want to learn this song in this West African language?" And I was like, "Oh heck, yeah." It was just, it was really cool, because it was like living that experience of seeing the lines . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: By sharing verbally [00:13:08] those things and song and in tradition and looking at different charms we were talking about. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  REBECCA: And I loved that. It was really special and what you're saying, too, is, we tell stories about traditions being [00:13:23] all one thing and they're . . . One thing I learn as I get older--and I'm 31, I'm not terribly wise--but I notice things are always more complicated and beautifully complex than we think they are. ANDREW: Mm-mm. REBECCA: The're never black or white. It's just [00:13:38] complex. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think that one of the other things I want to circle back to, you know, is, you mentioned, you know, briefly about, like, sustainability and stuff like that. And I think that that is [00:13:53] also such an important part of the equation of what's, what we're talking about here too, right? Like, you know, if you're going to live in, you know, in connection with plants and connection with [00:14:08] the spirits of the, of a place or whatever, right? I think that, that that attention on making sure that it's sustainable, making sure that there's some left, you know, like . . . I mean, you know, in my tradition, we use a lot of plants and some [00:14:23] of them do grow up here. Some of them I grow myself inside. And you know, some of them are just not possible in the far far north where I practice, but you do what you can. But you know, one of the things that my elders always stress is, you know, you never [00:14:38] take it all. You always leave enough that it keeps going, right? You always want to make sure that whatever you're working with, that, you know, later on it'll have regrown or next season it will regrow or whatever, because there is this eye towards . . . [00:14:53] You know, this is, this is a thing forever, hopefully. And therefore we want to keep that going forever, you know?  REBECCA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: Yeah, I teach foraging classes as my day job. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah! REBECCA: That's what I do [00:15:08] for a living. And this year, I'm actually going to teach foraging at the University of North Carolina. ANDREW: Amazing. REBECCA: As a college course. I know, I feel so honored. It's one nice thing about having an Appalachian Studies Master's, is now I can teach at colleges and that's, you know, even though they pay terribly, it's very good. [ringing phone] ANDREW: [00:15:23] I'm sorry. Can we pause for one second here? I've no way to make the phone stop ringing. [whispers] Stupid phone! [laughs] It's . . . REBECCA: Also, I have to say . . .  ANDREW: What's that?  REBECCA: Your mustache is spectacular.  ANDREW: Thank you, thank you. REBECCA: It's like, that mustache is [00:15:39] on point.  ANDREW: I started it as a joke, like a year and a half ago. Somebody on the radio was saying like, mustaches are coming in. And I was like, I've never grown a mustache. I wonder if I can grow a mustache? And, and then, I started growing it and I posted to Facebook and [00:15:54] everyone was like, yes, keep it going, and now, I'm just like, all right. This is my, this is my life now, so. REBECCA: That's amazing. Mustache life!  ANDREW: Mustache life.  ANDREW: Mustache life. All right, I'm going to clap and then we can start again. [claps] All right. [00:16:09] You were talking about teaching at the university.  REBECCA: Yeah, I'm really excited to get to teach at UNCA. I'm teaching foraging, and you were speaking about sustainability, and there's a lot of interesting, confusing, [00:16:24] complex arguments about wildcrafting in the United States, especially. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And in Canada, and any place that is colonized indigenous land. And what, as settler folks, who are European ancestry, like what are our responsibilities to [00:16:39] be good wildcrafters. Some people say you shouldn't wildcraft at all, zero percent is sustainable. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Others say, you can just take indiscriminately and do whatever you want. But obviously, I think the truth, there's no such thing as truth, [00:16:54] but I think a more balanced view is somewhere in between and something I've been really interested in and enjoying doing is: there's a lot of plants we call invasive and some of them radically alter their landscape, like one of my favorite plants, kudzu. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Which [00:17:10] on Gordon White's podcast, I mentioned I like kudzu and you would not believe the angry humans on those comments. [laughs] ANDREW: I would, I would.  REBECCA: I did not say we should go plant kudzu. I did not say like throw its seeds everywhere. I just said I love kudzu. And that triggered [00:17:26] a lot of people. Because it's edible, it's medicinal, and I'm in recovery from alcoholism, and kudzu's root has some great compounds in it that specifically help with the cravings for alcohol. So it's one, spiritually very in line with my heart and my personal journey. So, [00:17:41] and it was used in Japan and China for that purpose for a long time. But it's just funny because I can harvest as much kudzu is I want, you know, and like, I'm not going to put a dent in it. [laughs] But, I mean, if I want to harvest as much bloodroot, a native [00:17:56] plant, as I want, I can destroy that plant population. ANDREW: Sure.  REBECCA: So, it's just so . . . And, like, to me, saying all or nothing is never the right answer because harvesting invasives is actually beneficial to the environment, because it frees up space for more native [00:18:11] plants.  ANDREW: Yeah. I love dandelion. REBECCA: Me too! ANDREW: And you know, there's another one, like there's just, you know, I could never get rid of it in my garden, even if I tried probably. So, the amount that I can [00:18:26] take of that is basically everything that's showing, any time I want, and it just, you know, give it two or three weeks and boom, they're back again with another crop. REBECCA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, so, yeah.  REBECCA: And those plants have followed us from Europe here and [00:18:41] from Asia and from all the different places that all the different people that live on this continent now come from and it's the story of the colonization of this continent is evident in our plant life. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And it marks the times that all the different people have come over here. And [00:18:56] all the different trading has occurred. You know, kudzu came over, I think, in the 30s and 40s for the World's Fair, as an erosion control plant and a crop for animals to eat, because it's very good for horses and cows and pigs and chickens and [00:19:11] [laughs] and people to eat, it's fine protein. So, I just think, you know, focusing on harvesting invasive plants and plants that are abundant is a great way to ask the question: Is this sustainable? And also know that you will never know the answer. ANDREW: Uh huh. REBECCA: A lot of: plant [00:19:26] world are like, "I know the truth!" And you're like, you do? That's . . . Okay. I see you're very confident in yourself. Because we're always finding new things out, and ecology is just like folk magic or any magic spiritual tradition, always changing.  ANDREW: For sure. And also, you [00:19:41] know, with climate change.  REBECCA: Oh, yes. ANDREW: Like, I think that that's another thing that comes into this where it's like, we might have an idea based on, you know, our experiences or our lifetime or you know, maybe even like our parents' or grandparents' lifetime, [00:19:56] but, things are changing a lot now. And you know, that's going to change what, what all these plants do it, you know, and and also, you know all these, you know, continuously there are new plants being introduced and shifting back and forth [00:20:11] and all that kind of stuff, right? So. It's such a dynamic system.  REBECCA: Dynamic is such a good word to describe it. And I think, you know, once again, it's so funny. Like I even feel fear saying like: Invasive plants. Harvest them. Because you know, it's like, it's tough. People have very strong opinions [00:20:26] about how plants are to be managed and a lot of very good and important hard questions come up around that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: But the thing is, we do need to eat and heal ourselves from illness.  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: Most of those things can [00:20:41] be done with a lot of the invasive plants. And that's not to say I never harvest native plants. Like I use poke a lot, which is a native plant, but most people think it's a noxious weed. They'll say, oh, that's a weed. ANDREW: Sure.  REBECCA: It's not, it's a native plant. It's, you know, it's just [00:20:56] funny that people are like oh, this horrible weed. And I'm like, what are you talking about? ANDREW: Well, it's true. It's like, you know, so a bunch of the plants that grow around here, that I use often in my religious practice, [00:21:11] you know, purslane, you know, stuff like that. You just find them growing out of the sidewalk, right? Like, in the city, it's, you know, you just, you go down the back lane way and you're like, oh look, you know, here's this one and that one [00:21:26] and you know, and they're just growing up between cracks in the cement and wherever, because those, those really hardy, you know, aggressive plants, you know, one, they have a lot of strength magically, you [00:21:41] know, in a general way, I think. But, but, two, they, you know, they're, they're everywhere and again, they're the kinds of things where it's like, you know, you don't take it all but also, even if you did, they're so resilient, like, people are [00:21:56] trying to get rid of them all the time and they cannot, you know, so yeah, it's very interesting. REBECCA: Yeah, and that's a great way too, to find places to forage. I talk to a lot of farmer friends and I'll say, you know, I love dandelion root . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: For its liver medicine. And it [00:22:11] definitely is, you know, is a plant I feel is aligned with the element of air, it's very good for spirit work and communication, but also not toxic so you can use it with impunity in some ways. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And call my friends and say, hey, do you mind if I bring my apprentices and our trowels out and we'll dig some dandelion [00:22:26] at your house. And they're always like, oh come on over. Or you call people in, you know, and they're like, oh, come on over. So we go to different farms and kind of weed them. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And then we go home with all the things that we want. It's a great symbiotic relationship. [laughs] ANDREW: For sure. Yeah, I have [00:22:41] raised beds in my, in my garden . . . REBECCA: Oh! ANDREW: And then the rest of it is this sort of crummy hard pack, you know, dirt that's . . . whatever was like, you know, when [00:22:56] they built it, they filled in because we're over a parking garage, right? And yeah, it's, all the stuff that grows there is all wonderful energetically. And you know, dandelion, and plantain, and you know, like all that kind of stuff. It's like we [00:23:11] would just go out in the yard and my kids are like, you know, they go ahead and pick a bunch and come back and make salad out of it and all that kind of stuff, you know, because it's there, and it's useful if you know what you're looking at, right?  REBECCA: Kids are so good at learning plants. I teach a lot of children. People bring their kids on our foraging tours [00:23:26] and they always, at the end of the tour, can recite every plant we met. And the parents are like, oh, what was that one? And the kids are like, you know, it's bitter, hairy bittercress and I'm like, oh good job. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah.  REBECCA: They know everything. And they'll remember all the uses. They're so good. ANDREW: That's amazing. [00:23:41] So, I'm curious, because you've mentioned this a couple times now. Is the sort of, you said, I'm afraid to talk about this. I'm afraid to talk about that.  REBECCA: Yeah! [laughs] ANDREW: What . . . [00:23:56] tell me about the reservation. Like . . . REBECCA: Yeah! ANDREW: What, what is it that you run into around that? REBECCA: Well, I think a lot of it come up recently for me with my fumatory herbs class. I got a lot of really mean aggressive and [00:24:11] I would even say violent communications around me daring to suggest to folks of non-North American indigenous ancestry that maybe they shouldn't burn white sage with impunity. And I [00:24:26] think, I tried to say this compassionately and patiently as I could, I tried not to use attacking language. I called my, you know, my own self and my own shortcomings into the conversation, because I make mistakes constantly. I don't know the right answers. I'm just guessing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: I'm just trying, you know? [00:24:41]  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And I . . . the venom with which strangers will write to me is horrific, and it's funny because, you see this over and over again, on Internet communications. Because when I taught my class in person, I was terrified that people would yell at me . . . [00:24:56] ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: There would be fighting in the class. Like I was afraid it would be really bad. I had probably 40 people show up to this class. It was incredible. People were compassionate and patient. Nobody got a millimetre out of line. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And [00:25:11] just like, I thought that was the case, but I'm so glad to see this is true. And everybody was just building together. Asking questions. Even if someone didn't understand something, no one was like well, you're an idiot for not understanding this complicated concept. [00:25:26] And I just appreciated how kind people were to each other and I see that that's the case. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: You know but online when you're anonymous . . .  ANDREW: Definitely. Yeah. REBECCA: And that's where it comes from for me because I just see other herbalists and I'm [00:25:41] often holding myself back in my work, I think, because I'm terrified to make mistakes and hurt people. But it also prevents me from sharing more information, or you know, providing access to education to more folks that want it. ANDREW: Yeah. I totally get that. You know?  REBECCA: You feel [00:25:56] that way? ANDREW: I . . . last fall, I had made an Orisha Tarot deck with . . . that got published through Llewellyn. And so, it's basically everywhere. And--which [00:26:11] is great--and the amount of apprehension I had about being an outsider, about, you know, even, even with the blessings of my ancestors, or like, my elders, my ancestors, the spirits through divination, like, even with [00:26:26] all those things, there's just like "ohhh, man," like waiting for that, that, you know, potential thing, right? And sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't, right? And definitely online is a place where it's way more likely, because online people [00:26:42] . . . Be kind, people, just be kind! I'm sure nobody listening to this podcast is mean online. REBECCA: [chuckles] ANDREW: But, yeah, but, but, that apprehension, right? And then also that realization, now that it's out there, that how much people [00:26:57] are benefiting from it, you know, and how much people are, you know, telling me how grateful they are that I made this offering, you know, to the world and whatever. And I think that it's such a delicate line . . . REBECCA: Yeah.  ANDREW: For, for us, [00:27:12] for people doing work, for people offering teaching, you know, and that, there's so many people out there who are just like, "Rah, rah, rah, do your thing, screw everybody, give no fucks, whatever" and I'm always like, that's horrible. Like, let's not be like [00:27:27] that! That's not useful. REBECCA: [laughs] Yeah! ANDREW: But then also there's like so many people doing good work like, you know, what you're up to, where it's, there's also that like, "Oh, should I? How's it going to go? What's gonna happen? I don't know," you know? REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: And, [00:27:42] and, and it's real, you know, that tension is really real. And I think that so many people experience it around their work and stuff. You know, how do you find your way through it?  REBECCA: I think a lot of it is, I try to use, [00:27:57] like I am an incredibly privileged person. You know? ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: I'm a large able-bodied white tall physically able person, who can appear heterosexual in certain situations. [laughs] And I . . . And [00:28:12] feminine, you know, and it's . . . So I can use those things to leverage messages and voices that are erased and largely unheard in my friends' communities, especially my indigenous friends. And I do a lot of work with [00:28:27] with the Catawba Indian nation. And the . . . I'm hoping to do some more with the Cherokee Nation around ethnobotany. And reestablishing control over the knowledge of foraging to the people who taught it to my ancestors here. [00:28:42]  And I think it's kind of crazy that me, as a European-ancestored-person, am going and teaching indigenous people how to forage, because their own knowledge was erased from them, through genocide. And it's, to me, like acknowledging those things, and like [00:28:57] when we come together as people in the real world and real life, together, me and my friends and those nations, we can create pretty amazing things. And we talk about really hard, uncomfortable, scary stuff and it's tough. You know? It's hard. It brings up a lot for both of us. But [00:29:12] instead of allowing it to paralyze us and prevent us, we're like, what can we build from the space? Like, where do we go forward? Let's acknowledge these things, talk about the hard stuff, the history, the harm caused by my ancestors, and let's [00:29:27] build something new from that. You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I think that's really tough. It's because we don't know what to do. None of us really know. And for me, like constantly giving word, voice, accolade, and when I have extra resources, [00:29:42] putting my resources towards the people whose land this was and is, still. That to me is what I can do. And I know that's not what everyone would say is the best way but for me, I know, I don't . . . Unfortunately, being [00:29:57] a Appalachian folk magical practitioner is definitely not a great way to make a lot of money . . . BOTH: [laughing] REBECCA: I don't have a ton of resources and I have a lot of debt. ANDREW: Uh-huh.  REBECCA: But I have a lot of non-monetary resources, like access to academic information. [00:30:12] So I do a lot of research for my friends who don't have access to journals. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I give them, you know, my university, don't tell my university I give them my login.  ANDREW: Nobody from university is listening, it's fine.  REBECCA: I know. They're not. Don't worry. But just finding ways to constantly figure [00:30:27] out like, okay, who am I speaking for? How can I help make space for others to speak and how can I make my resources available to them that are most helpful? And not what I think is most helpful, but what they need.  ANDREW: Yeah. I think that part about asking [00:30:42] people what they need? I mean, I think it's such a such a piece that gets overlooked so often in any kind of restorative approach.  REBECCA: Yes! ANDREW: Right?  REBECCA: Restorative, yeah.  ANDREW: That, like, say you're sorry, like whatever [00:30:57] it was, personal thing, you know, a generational thing or whatever, say, "Hey, I'm really sorry this happened, and then ask, like, "Is there something you need? Is there something that, that you think that I might be able to do that you need?" And then you can really [00:31:12] see where the conversation goes, right? Because I find so often people make these apologies or, you know, like, you know, I mean, again, maybe I'm being judgmental about people who are raging against you about using white [00:31:27] sage online, but I'm like, listen, just start with an apology, or just start with saying, "Huh. Well, what could I do instead. What might make sense?" You know? And maybe, maybe there are people, and probably there are people, who a hundred percent like have a deep deep connection [00:31:42] to that plant? Or, you know, like the white sage plant. Or there are lots of ways in which you can procure stuff sustainably, if you want to. REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: Like, you know. I got some stuff here. There's a new farmer in [00:31:57] Ontario who started growing stuff. You know, he got laid off from his job and he started expanding what he was already farming for himself, and it's great. You know, it's local, it's organic. It's . . . You know, it's sustainably harvested because [00:32:12] he's farming it himself, right? You know, it's great.  REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: Right? So like there's lots of options but being mad about it. That's not, like, that doesn't help anybody and . . .  REBECCA: Yeah, they don't like being told they can't do something. People are mad at me for saying . . . And I didn't say that. I said, "Hey, [00:32:27] maybe listen to indigenous people."  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And too, look at how this plant is now entering threatened status. And like, these are two things that are very important for different reasons.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and I think too, you know, I mean, it's [00:32:42] always something that's very interesting to me, because my approach to working with plants, outside of my traditional stuff, which I learned from my elders, is I go for walks in the ravine, you know, or in the the forest in the valley here or [00:32:57] even in the lane ways. And, when I find a plant, like something'll grab my attention. And I'll be like, "Huh? What are you? What's going on?" And I'll just sit down and hang out with it for a while.  REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you [00:33:12] know, none of those plants are mad. I've yet to find an angry plant. You know? I mean, like, that kind of like, conflicty energy, you know. Even, even plants that are in competition with each [00:33:27] other or whatever, I never have that feeling from them, that they have that aggressiveness, you know? And I think that it's an interesting thing to sort of ask yourself when you're working with plants. Like, what is the energy of this plant, [00:33:42] and how am I aligned with it? And how are my feelings aligned with it? And what's going on from there? You know? I don't know, does that make any sense to you? REBECCA: Oh, definitely. And I think . . . I totally agree with you. And I was talking to a friend the other day and he's like, "How do we separate [00:33:57] the spiritual from the political?" And I was like, "I don't think we can, and I don't think we should, at this point, but I think I see why people want to." They say, "Oh, can we just leave politics out of it?"  ANDREW: Sure.  REBECCA: Like well, that would be great. But unfortunately, with [00:34:12] the way things are, we can't. And it's . . . there's, you know, a lot of Internet explosions around things like that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Because people are like, "Well, you, don't bring up politics at this event." And it's like, well, you can't talk about plants or harvesting [00:34:27] or medicine and magic and not talk about the people it's come from, how we know about it.  ANDREW: Yeah.  REBECCA: And the story of how we got to this point. And it's . . . We need to do better as you know, as a community, especially, you know, in the white herbal world and [00:34:42] white practitioners need to do better about being open to like, talking about hard stuff and realizing it doesn't mean they have to fling themselves off a cliff. [laughs] You know? ANDREW: For sure, right? Yeah. REBECCA: You know, sometimes people think that's what people are asking of them, and it's like no one is asking you to fling yourself off a cliff. Maybe some people are, but you [00:34:57] don't have to do that. And it's just about being able to say like, whoa, what's the real story of how I got this information?  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And you know, the real story of when I harvest poke, I know what poke's medicinal uses are because indigenous and African [00:35:12] folks told my ancestors those things. So I need to, every time I work with that plant, I think about that. And I don't think about it in a negative or combative way. I think, like you're saying, I think about it in a, like, thank you, gratitude.  ANDREW: Yeah.  REBECCA: A building.  ANDREW: [00:35:27] Yeah. I don't think we can ever separate. . . I mean, yeah, I don't think we can really ever separate or ought to, as you say, at this time, separate politics from our spirituality. You know, I think that that that makes no sense at all [00:35:42] to me and even historically, you know . . . REBECCA: Yeah. [laughs]  ANDREW: You know, you look at a lot of, like the the stories of the Orishas going back, you know? So many of them demarcate political shifts in power and other kinds of things that [00:35:57] are, that are historical, you know? This group came in. They took over this, this region. They deposed the kind of person who was in charge. And the spirit that that person, you know, was most aligned with got a new story, where they [00:36:12] got demoted somehow because of something, right? Or what have you, you know? There's a lot of that. And, it's why, when I wrote the book that goes to my deck, I included the politics, a bunch of politics, all through it and even a chapter in the front that's . . . The, the header is like, why are there [00:36:27] politics in this book? And you know, and it's like, there's a few pages on like why, why I wanted to, you know, really make sure I was engaging in honoring some of that political content because it's true of the religion, it's true of [00:36:42] the world, and it's true for people who are living in the world and using these tools or these plants or whatever. We're all running into politics all the time, you know? And so I thought the idea that we could free ourselves from that somehow is, I [00:36:58] don't know, reminds me very much of like the Golden Dawn notion of like . . . REBECCA: [laughs] ANDREW: We'll get back to like the one true history behind all of the movement of the last, you know, thousands of years since Egypt and we'll, you know, access pure spiritual being or whatever. It's like no. That [00:37:13] doesn't exist. You know? REBECCA: I think you're so right. That was really well said and I totally agree. And I . . . it's . . . to me, I don't want to shame the, like when I hang out with a lot of hippies in Asheville and they're like, we're one human family. I'm like, we are, you're right and it's . . . it's great. [00:37:28] We're all humans. We have these shared human experiences. But within that human experience, my experience is very different than my friend who's, you know, Latinx or a person of color or disabled or a differently [00:37:43] abled or you know, blind or deaf or like anybody that experiences the world and and the, unfortunately, the baggage that the world puts upon them, in our culture . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: The different reasons and the different oppressions that people experience. [00:37:58] I don't understand the . . . Like, for me it's difficult to understand when people are like, let's just pretend that things don't exist, because it's hard! ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: To deal with and it's hard when you don't experience a lot of those things, to be compassionate enough to say, what would it be like? What . . . How can I put [00:38:13] myself in that person's shoes? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And be compassionate to them, and be like, wow, you have had it way more difficult than me. And that doesn't mean that once again, I need to jump off a cliff, but it means I need to be aware of how I move through the world and who I'm stepping [00:38:28] on, who I'm profiting off of . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And who I'm supporting in the way that they would like to be supported, not the way I think they should be supported. ANDREW: For sure. REBECCA: And like you said, I don't . . . I always tell my students, I'm like, I don't know the answers. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just . . . [laughs] I [00:38:43] do have some idea. But I'm guessing and I'm list-, trying to listen to my friends, and what their needs actually are, and I make mistakes. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I have to be sorry, like you said, and then ask, what do you, what word did you use, recon-, not [00:38:58] reconstructed, but re- . . . You used a great word to kind of describe that asking somebody, what can I do? What do you need from me? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: To- . . . true apology. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I can't remember right now, but you can rewind and listen to it later. [laughs]  REBECCA: [00:39:13] Well, that word, you know . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And that concept of . . . That to me is so integral in our in our work, especially with plants. It's so complicated. And like I said, many people will either say, "Right on," you know, or say "Wow, [00:39:28] she's a crazy communist," you know, or "Wow, she's actually horrible and she shouldn't harvest any plans at all." And I know, at some point, I want everyone to like me . . . [laughs] You know, I want everyone .  . . I'm a very people-pleasing person, being socialized female growing up, you [00:39:43] know, I always want to make everyone happy and feel safe. Also quadruple Cancer here. ANDREW: Wow, that's a lot of Cancer. It's a lot of Cancer. The struggle is real, eh? REBECCA: A real struggle but, I've got a lot of fire too. So it's hard to find out . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: What to truly do about that. [00:39:58] But I think what you've said, like, and the way you handled it in your book . . . There . . . People will be mad at us, no matter what we do in life and dislike us and that's okay.  ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: Looking for places who are causing real harm. That's to me more important than dealing with people who are on the Internet screaming. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Real [00:40:13] purpose. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, people can, people can do whatever they want on the Internet. It's fine. It's the Internet. I mean, it'd be great if people were kinder, but well, it's the Internet. So. [laughs] So that's the modern monster we've created right? Now, it's [00:40:28] funny, I've been . . . So, I guess, I have a question for you and then we will wrap up because you know, we've been on the phone for a while here, which has been super fun and we could probably talk for a long time. But so, my [00:40:43] question is: If you were to pick a plant or maybe a couple plants, that you think their energy harmonizes with kind of what we've been talking about here. What, what plant would that be, for you, for somebody [00:40:58] to get to know, you know, on an energetic level or whatever level makes sense, you know?  REBECCA: Yeah, that's such a good question. I think, for me, one of my most patron plants is mugwort, Artemisia vulgaris. ANDREW: Uh huh. REBECCA: And [00:41:13] it-- [laughs] Most gardeners in my town will be like, I hate mugwort, because it has running rootless, and it goes all over the place . . . ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And it's a weed. But mugwort has been used historically all over the world as a banishing herb. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: The way that [00:41:28] many like new age folks use white sage now, which is not really its intended purpose, is what I've been told . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: By different folks and you can read a lot more about that by actual indigenous people online. If you want to look up the original uses [00:41:43] of white sage, I'd encourage you to do that. But mugwort, whether burned or even just hung up as a bundle, was used to keep away evil, to cleanse things, to remove disease-causing spirits, and in Asia, as well as North America and Europe, [00:41:58] and now it's naturalized. It's not native. It's naturalized all over the United States in lots of different species. And they're fragrant. They're edible, medicinal, important plants and I invite you to meet mugwort. And especially if [00:42:13] you have German ancestry, it was one of most important fumic plants of the German folks, which my last name means "from Bavaria." So, as you can imagine, that's some of the stuff I focus on in my work, but I invite people that to meet mugwort, because when you harvest it, you're weeding [00:42:28] out an invasive plant, you can make all types of food and medicine, and I have a post on my blog about the history of its magical uses, if people are curious with it.  ANDREW: We'll include a link in the show notes, for sure. That's awesome. Yeah, mugwort's [00:42:43] a really great one. You know, it's funny. It's amusing. I don't know. I don't even know what the right word is. I'm always surprised at how hard a sell it is to people sometimes? When other things are just such an [00:42:58] easy sell, right?  REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: But, but now I'm just going to be like, you know, look, Rebecca says you should use this one. I'll there put a little sign above the . . . You know, your face, saying, "Get this one!" right where we sell it in the shop. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, [00:43:13] the one that I leaned on a lot through, through that kind of like journeys with this stuff was, was actually was dandelion. REBECCA: Hmm. ANDREW: You know, it's a sort of like, you know, partly because of its notion of like, that deep [00:43:28] taproot as sort of staying deeply grounded in my own practice and being really really like grounded in what I do. Partly, you know, because of, like even though people see it as a weed, the beauty of its flower, right? That sort of like [00:43:43] offering of a radiance to the world throughout what I'm trying to do with my work, and also because it's, you know, often used for like detoxifying and stuff like that, that sort of like inner cleanse. It's like, I've got to root out this stuff, that's conditioning and [00:43:58] cultural baggage and other things, so that I can be more authentic to myself and what I need to be doing, you know? So that was definitely one that I leaned down a lot. You know, last year, especially through the summer time, [00:44:13] whenever I was like, feeling, feeling that worry about what was going to happen when the thing came out. I was like, all right, let's go out in the garden, dig up some dandelions, make some tea, or like hang out with them, or put a put a bunch of them on the table for a while or whatever, you know, so. [00:44:28]  REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure.   REBECCA: That's amazing. I love that. Thanks for sharing that with me.  ANDREW: Yeah! So, for people who want to check out what you're up to, and people should definitely check out what you're up to. Where do they find you? Where . . . [00:44:43] what are you up to, where are you hanging out online right now? REBECCA: Where do I lurk? Well, I have a website and an Instagram account called Blood and Spicebush. And my website is BloodandSpicebush.com. Spicebush is one of my favorite native plants and a blood cleanser, [00:44:58] hence the name of my website! And I also run a small folk herbalism school with my friend Abby Artemisia, called Sassafras School. And you can find us at Sassafras-School.com. And we have a few more spaces left in our yearlong [00:45:13] program on folk medicine and wild foods, as we're both female botanists and foragers and medicinal practitioners. So, we're excited to share that, because there's lots of amazing clinical herb programs, but we've seen there wasn't really any folk [00:45:28] program. So we decided to give it a go and see how that goes. ANDREW: Nice. That's awesome. Amazing. And you're going to be in Hamilton this summer, for folks who are local to the shop. So, you know, we'll put a link in for where you can find that as well in the notes, [00:45:43] but, Rebecca's going to be up in up in our part of the world a little bit where the shop is, so.  REBECCA: End of June. Yeah. ANDREW: End of June, yeah. Well, thank you so much for being on. It's been a wonderful chatting with you. Thank you. REBECCA: It was a pleasure. Thank you. 

In this episode T. Susan Chang plays host to interview me about my new deck from Llewellyn – The Orisha Tarot. We talk about my 18 year journey with the Lukumi tradition that brought me to this point. This episode is a deep dive into the how and why of this deck an dthe role the spirits have played in its creation too.  You can see the deck and get it from my website here, Amazon, or at your local bookshop.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. And you should go see all the good stuff Susan is up to here.  If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with me through my site here.  Transcription SUSIE: Hello, everybody! You're hearing a different voice as the host of this week's Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm Susie Chang, friend of Andrew, and Andrew has kindly invited me to come on the show in order to interview him about his new deck, the Orisha Tarot, since he obviously could not interview himself! [laughs] Normally, at the beginning of an interview, what I would do is introduce the guest, but since the guest is the host, I guess I'll just do a very cursory introduction of what I know about my friend, Andrew. As you know, he is the proprietor of The Hermit's Lamp, the store, which is a touchstone for all of us in the tarot community, and he is the voice behind The Hermit's Lamp podcast. He is an artist in his own right and a creator of beautiful works, decks, and he is also a priest in the Lucumí tradition, and we'll be talking about that some more. But the reason that we're here today is to talk about the Orisha Tarot, which is coming out from Llewellyn in September … What day is it?  ANDREW: Basically, today, according to Amazon.  SUSIE: For real! Fantastic! Yeah, this is very exciting. So, I understand decks are already shipping out, and I was also particularly interesting -- interested -- in doing this podcast because we're both Llewellyn authors. I've got a book coming out from Llewellyn on tarot correspondences just next month. So, shout out to Llewellyn for supporting the work of tarot lovers everywhere.  ANDREW: Absolutely. SUSIE: Yeah! So the Orisha Tarot is officially out. Congratulations! ANDREW: Thank you! SUSIE: It's been many years in the making, hasn't it?  ANDREW: Yeah, I mean it's … It's always one of those things. Where do you count that from? You know?  SUSIE: [laughs] ANDREW: I signed my contract for it about two years ago, maybe a little bit less than that. So that's probably as good a time as any. But even at that point I had already made a dozen cards and had spent five or six years prior to that thinking about it and trying to figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it. So. You know?  SUSIE: Right. And actually, I'd like to back up even further, to the beginning of your story in this tradition. And to find out a little bit. Because it's been about ten years, I think you said? Something like that?  ANDREW: Ten years as a priest.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: As of August. It was 2000 when I started getting involved in this tradition. So it's been about 18 years that I've been involved.  SUSIE: Wow. So that's … Really, it's been a long journey for you. And I was listening to your wonderful interview with our friends at the Tarot Visions podcast, and I think you mentioned that you came into it through kind of a circle of friends who were exploring different esoteric traditions, and I kind of wanted to know a little bit more about what drew you. You mentioned that you were, you know, a friend had brought in his own explorations of Lucumí, and I wanted to, first of all, sort of talk a tiny bit about the context of Lucumí, since not everyone will be familiar with it, and also, a little bit more about your attraction to it. Now, as I understand it, Lucumí is a Cuban offshoot of the greater Yoruba African traditional religion, yeah?  ANDREW: So, the story you get will depend a lot on who you talk to. Like many things. Right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, so, at the time of the Atlantic slave trade, Yoruban wasn't really cohesive at all. That whole area was a bunch of city states and so on, right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So, this idea that there was sort of one cohesive African traditional religion, or ATR, which these things spread from, isn't really historically accurate. You know?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: If you came from, you know, the city of Ife, then, you know, your tradition slants in one direction, certain deities are, you know, held above others; if you come from Oyo, then, you know, that's going to have a different set of traditions and sort of a different kind of more primary veneration and tilting towards certain deities over others. If you're down sort of in the coastal parts of kind of western Africa, towards the south end of that sort of prominence, the way in which some of the Orisha are going to manifest, especially the water Orisha, are different than if you're sort of further north, or inland, or in other places. You know, and so … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: It's important to understand that these sort of … All of these Orisha traditions and their diasporic manifestations, you know, as they found themselves in different countries, throughout the Caribbean and North and South America, they all varied depending on which groups of people were enslaved and brought over, which traditions survived, what happened in relationship to the indigenous culture that was present, you know, in Cuba indigenous culture was sort of pretty much wiped out, so there wasn't much inclusion of that into the traditions, whereas in other parts, you know, especially in South America, you know, some of those cultures continue to sort of live alongside and there's sort of more sharing of ideas. SUSIE: Yeah, it seems like in many of the diasporic manifestations, you see fates that have been heavily syncretized with whatever was going on locally.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that, you know, the question of syncretization is always an interesting one, you know?  SUSIE: Yeah.  ANDREW: The story that some people like to say is that they were syncretized in order to conceal them and to prevent … SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And to protect them and to allow them to practice covertly, you know … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And I'm sure that that's true in some ways. But also, you know, there's a lot of … In nonwestern approaches to magic and to spirituality, there's often a real sense of "hey, what's that guy good for? What's that spirit …?" SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: "What's that one going to do for me?" Whereas this sort of very practical notion of, you know, you come across somebody and you're like, "well, I read about this guy, what's that saint good for?" SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And there's the syncretization that happens, for sure, but there's also the notion of like, having more spiritual people in your corner is not a bad idea at all. Right?  SUSIE: Exactly, exactly. ANDREW: And so, so I think the history is interesting to try and unravel, but I think that we'll never really fully understand exactly what was going on with everybody involved.  SUSIE: Exactly. And I think that, you know, people of faith kind of make faith work however they can, right? You know, it's sort of like you'll always have schools of thoughts that try to keep, you know, try to distinguish and separate and go towards a purist mentality in terms of practicing faith, and then there are others who'll say, well, we work with what we've got, you know?  ANDREW: Exactly. SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: So, and so, to kind of answer your kind of like, about my lineage … My lineage, as far back as we know it, originates with this woman Monserrate, you know, she's the farthest back that we can trace that, and my lineage originates in Cuba and through those sort of Cuban traditions. So. Variations of the diasporic traditions, for sure.  SUSIE: Right, right. So we're talking about … We're specifically talking about a tradition that came to Cuba through the slave trade.  ANDREW: Exactly, yeah. SUSIE: And do … You actually have some reference to that in, I think, your Ten of Swords card.  ANDREW: Absolutely. SUSIE: Which seems really appropriate, yeah. So, I wanted to know a little bit more about your personal journey, in terms of whether you yourself grew up in any kind of faith community, or whether you were … you know, did you have to rebel against one? did you long to belong to a faith community? What was that like for you and what was discovering this community like for you?  ANDREW: So, I think that one of the best things that my parents did was not raise me with any traditions at all.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: My parents weren't particularly religious, you know ... SUSIE: So what did you rebel against? [laughs] ANDREW: I didn't rebel against any- I mean I rebelled against everything. But we'll get to that. But what that meant was, you know, when I said to my mom, I want to go to the psychic fair and find some books on magic, when I was 12, my mom was like, okay. You know, when I like, picked out Alistair Crowley, she was like, sure, go ahead.  SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: So, that meant that I like had a lot of space to really get involved and think about other things, you know?  SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, other than sort of when my parents split up and we started going to Anglican church, mostly I think because my mom wanted some community … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I didn't really have a lot of connection or experience with any kind of organized religion. But what happened was, when I was 14, I almost died in a car accident.  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: And after that I wanted to understand everything. And so, I didn't rebel against anything as such, but what I really wanted to know was, like, what does this all mean? Right? Like all of it. You know. At that point I'd already been reading tarot for a year … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I'd already been studying Crowley for a couple of years. It was already really invested in sort of a magical world view. And at that point then I just started reading everything I could get my hands on, right? So I'm like in grade 9 and 10, and reading Nietzsche and … SUSIE: Sure. ANDREW: Picking out, you know, people who can talk about these things. The youth group at the church was run by an ex-Jesuit, and so I would like corner him and be like "hey, tell me about this, tell me about that, tell me about this," and for the most part, people would indulge me and have conversations with me about it, you know?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. Was there another organized religion that you were drawn to? Before Lucumí?  ANDREW: No. I mean, Crowley's work. You know?  SUSIE: Yes.  ANDREW: For me it was basically all about Crowley's work.  SUSIE: And you were in the OTO? ANDREW: Yeah. When I was in my ... It wasn't until much later though. It wasn't until I was, you know, well into my 20s that I actually even considered … I was like, oh, maybe the OTO exists here in Toronto. Maybe I could find people. Mostly I just practiced independently and pursued and tried to talk to people. SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: Yeah. And then basically I left the OTO and the Armed Solace, which was another initiatory group, and moved into practicing Lucumí, you know? That was my journey.  SUSIE: Yeah, yeah. And it's been, as you said, like an 18-year journey at this point. And, so that's something I wanted to sort of ask you about, in terms of doing the artwork, telling the stories, introducing the wider world to this tradition. You know, often when we are talking about faiths we didn't grow up in, you know, there's this question of whether it's your story to tell, or whether, you know, at what point do you become a representative? And so that's a question I have for you, at what point did you feel that you were invested enough or, you know, that you had a strong enough sense of belonging to be able to bring this to other people?  ANDREW: Sure. So, there's a whole bunch of pieces to that answer. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. It's a complex one. [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah! We'll start with this. When you … When you become a priest, right? You become initiated into a lineage, right? So, you know, and when we talk about ancestors, the word we use most of the time is Egun. Right? We mean Egun to mean, ancestors by blood, and ancestors by initiation, right?  SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And so, you know, my Egun are those priests of the Orishas, going back to Montserrate and beyond, you know, and they're lost to history beyond that. And so, part of the conversation for me is, this is my lineage, this is my, these are my ancestors at this point, right? And this is something that we take pretty seriously within the tradition, right? Initiation and lineage are really significant. SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: And so that's part of the thing. Part of it is, although my parents did not practice this tradition, I am initiated into this lineage in a traditional way.  SUSIE: So, so there's a difference here between blood lineage and spiritual lineage.  ANDREW: But the word does not differentiate. We don't differentiate, right? So, if you … We could … You could get a reading, and, your traditional reading, and your reading could come in a good way or a bad way, depending on what's going on with you, from the Egun, right?  SUSIE: Right, right.  ANDREW: And when we're divining, if it's possible, we want to mark who that is, and we would ask, ancestors from the lineage, and ancestors from the blood line, and depending on what the reading came out as, it would guide us. And we could narrow it down, and be like, "Oh, yeah, the ancestors are upset with you, and in this case it's someone from your blood family, or in some other case it's somebody from your initiatory lineage," but we don't differentiate, the word means the same, right?  SUSIE: Yes, I seem to remember reading something this past week about the idea that your, your, they're sort of one set, one bloodline sort of over one shoulder and spiritual guidance over the other, but they sort of combine and you need both. And I guess, you know, speaking about the outlook and cosmology of the faith, would it fair to say that, you come into this religion, but the religion itself proceeds from the assumption that everybody, no matter where you come from, no matter who your parents, or grandparents etc. were, has a relationship, or a potential relationship they haven't yet realized, with the Orisha?  ANDREW: I don't think that that's actually true.  SUSIE: Okay. So that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of here.  ANDREW: Okay. Before we come to Earth, we choose our destiny. We choose our Ori, right? Ori is sort of, not easily translated into one thing, but if you think of it as sort of your guardian angel, your destiny, and your higher self, all as one entity, that's probably a reasonable set of points to make sense of it, for people who have those ideas already.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And when you choose your destiny, before you come to Earth, it's sealed, right?  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: And so, we don't know what all it entails before we come, but if it's part of your destiny to get initiated into the Orisha tradition then opportunities will present themselves for that. It's not to say that you couldn't force them otherwise, but those wouldn't be in alignment with your destiny. And really, when we're talking about sort of initiation, and sort of connection, and those kinds of things, they really all ought to be dictated by either divination, or dictated by Orisha in possession of people, right?  SUSIE: Yes.  ANDREW: It's not really, you know. There are many people who will come, people will come and Orishas are like, "yeah, okay, we'll help you," right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Or the people will come, and they'll be like, "no, you should go do something else," right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Either direction, go over that way, go look at these people, you know, like go look at these other traditions. It's definitely not for … It's not meant for everybody, per se, and it's not closed in any, you know, in any particular way, although certain houses and certain, you know, lineages, might be more closed to outsiders than others, based on a whole bunch of different factors, but … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: It's much more so that, you know, if it's part of your destiny the opportunity will arise, if it's not, then, you know, you might run into it, but they might say, no, you're good, go to the other side.  SUSIE: Right. Well, this is interesting to me because I've noticed that there seem to be a lot of people who are clearly didn't grow up within the culture who have become drawn to this religion or some form of it, some form of the faith, and, you know, taken it on. And, it seems as though there is, you know, a certain openness to those who commit themselves, whether or not they grew up or had family or, you know, understood the culture. Right?  ANDREW: Yeah, I mean I think that, I think that there are opportunities definitely for people to engage and connect with these traditions. And there are definitely practitioners around who are, you know, open to people who didn't grow up in these traditions and so on, for sure, right.  SUSIE: Right, right.  ANDREW: That's definitely a thing, and you know, I mean that, I think one of the things I see that's going on is that, certain people seem like they're looking for tradition, right? They're looking for … They're kind of doing something that doesn't have a long living history, and they're kind of looking backwards for, or looking around for those things that do, you know?  SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: I think that's part of why the Tarot de Marseilles is sort of resurfacing. SUSIE: Right, right.  ANDREW: You know, it's, I think that it's why the Orisha traditions are shifting and coming forward more. You know?  SUSIE: Right. That's one of the things that … I guess that's why I was asking you so much about your own background in terms of, you know, working independently versus belonging, right? Because I think that that's something that a lot of us struggle with, especially those of us who grew up, you know, in an era where religious community isn't something that one takes for granted.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: Yeah. So anyway, I think that we should probably turn a little bit to the work itself.  ANDREW: Well, let me finish answering … Cause we started with this question of me and sort of, you know, doing this deck, right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: You know, sort of … And we kind of started talking about the ancestral piece and drifted away, and there are a couple of other things that I want to sort of … SUSIE: Okay, good.  ANDREW: So I mean, one of the things, like I did a bunch of things around creating and starting this process, and getting permission before I started this process, and certainly one of them was sitting with my elders and talking about what I wanted to do, and, you know, getting advice from them.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And certainly part of it was asking the Orishas themselves, asking Elegua for, you know, his blessing to proceed with this project.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And also, you know, sort of sitting down with people and sort of showing my art with, you know, with different people and people of color and so on to kind of consult with my choices around representations and so on, so.  SUSIE: Absolutely, absolutely. ANDREW: I really wanted to, you know, you can never please anybody, and I'm sure there'll be some people who'll be upset by the deck, and well, you know, that's life. Right? But … SUSIE: Right. But it sounds as though you have a lot of support. At least within the community you have access to for the work that you undertook. ANDREW: Exactly. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cool. So I wanted to talk a little bit about making a tarot deck, approaching a tarot deck, coming out of the various traditions you come out of. So I know that you started out with Crowley and the Thoth deck -- or, I know you pronounce it "Toth," [laughing] and also that your primary commitment as a reader for quite a while has been the Marseilles deck. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: So, how … Why did it seem like a natural choice to you to translate or to represent what you know from Orisha as a tarot deck? You know, I think a lot of people would say, well, you know, since there isn't an obvious 78 card structure, you know, number of deities, all the sort of correspondences that tend to underlie at least the Golden Dawn-derived decks, or the general tradition of tarot reaching back to the 15th century, you know, why, why do a tarot deck and not something more free form like an oracle deck?  ANDREW: Well, because, one of the reasons why I made this deck was because I wanted to create a bridge between the people who have traditional experience with the Orishas, and people who have experience with the traditional tarot structure.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And I wanted to use that … those two pieces as a way of creating a bridge so that people could sort of have more understanding of each other. And of what's going on, right?  SUSIE: Yeah, yeah.  ANDREW: And so, I really, you know, I mean, I've got nothing against oracle decks, I mean I released one earlier in the year. But, in trying to think about something as large and expansive as the Orisha traditions, it really … Having a clear structure, like the tarot structure, allowed me to frame and set the conversation in a way that allowed me to finish it [laughing] cause otherwise … SUSIE: [laughing] Right, it's ... otherwise, how do you know when it's done? [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah, right? I mean, we divine with, you know, upwards of 256 different signs.  SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: Each of those signs is as complicated or as a trump card, or as sophisticated as a trump card … SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: and then there's, you know, depending on who you ask, you know, a bunch of primary Orishas and maybe, you know, like even hundreds if you start getting into different paths and roads, it can expand infinitely in every direction, right? So.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. I'm curious in whether there's much crossover between the two communities, that you've noticed. I mean tarot, and Orisha.  ANDREW: Sure, lots of people. I know lots of people who are initiated. You know, I mean, that sort of … syncretic piece, kind of "what can I do with this?", you know, that continues to be a problem with a lot of Orisha practitioners' lives, right?  SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: It's more purely, just the Lucumí Orisha stuff. Many people practice some combination of, you know, Paulo Moyumbe, and espiritismo, and card reading, and, you know, other things, depending on who they are and what they feel is important and what they have access to. So there's not like … There's not a lot of hard rules … SUSIE: Yeah.  ANDREW: About the Orisha tradition. Certainly not the tradition I practice.  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: I mean, definitely don't mix them in one ceremony. SUSIE: But it's okay if you practice them separately.  ANDREW: If you go to church on Sunday, and then you tend your ancestral Boveda, and then you have some Orisha, and you go between them, depending on what you feel and need, it depends on where you go, it's a really common experience for a lot of people. So.  SUSIE: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you addressed that, cause that's something I was really curious about. You know, you don't dilute your practice by sort of mixing a bit of everything. On the other hand, you're one person, and, you know, if you're drawn to different practices, then perhaps you're drawn to different practices for different needs.  ANDREW: Sure. And if the Orisha don't want you doing that, they'll tell you! For sure. SUSIE: [laughing] Right.  ANDREW: They'll be like, "stop it!"  SUSIE: That's not cool. Yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah.  SUSIE: So, a little bit about what people can expect when they're approaching the cards. Now, it's not like there's a particular Orisha per card. There's Orisha in some representations of some cards, some cards have concepts from Lucumí, some cards have one of the Odu on them, so, sort of like, how did you approach how you wanted to impart all of this information structurally into the deck?  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, I really, I wanted to try and avoid what I had seen done in other decks in the past.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: Not because it's wrong per se, but because it doesn't give the conversation enough meat. Right? You know a lot of decks would say, well, Shango is the king, and therefore, he's the emperor, and so when I draw the Emperor I'm going to draw Shango.  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: And that's fair, you know, I mean Shango is the emperor, he's the king of the Orishas.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: But, but there's a lot more to it than that. What does that mean? In what way does kingship or power in that way show up in a variety of different contexts, and what are the different conversations that we could have, right?  SUSIE: Exactly. ANDREW: And so, when I was sort of working with the trump cards, I wanted to embody the ideas that I see being behind, you know, behind the cards themselves: spiritual authority, earthly authority, fortune and chance, you know, like different things. I wanted to sort of embody those bigger ideas and kind of avoid kind of just a straight, this symbol = this symbol here … SUSIE: Yeah, I call that the matchy match. [laughing] ANDREW: Right? Exactly. SUSIE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  ANDREW: When I was looking at the number cards, which for me often represent sort of more the what and the how of life, right? I wanted to kind of focus more on stories, and those things that tend to be more about particular patakis, or stories or ideas from the lives of the Orishas and the lives of their practitioners and where that kind of overlaps and integrates with those numbered cards. And then when I got to the court cards, I wanted to, I wanted to really kind of explore the way the court cards can be sort of seen to line up with roles people might play in the community. Right?  SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: So, when we're looking at those, we see … One of them, the Aleyo, the new person who's just coming to this tradition, who's ready to learn, and they're making an offering to, you know, the butcher, who is a very skilled and important part of the ceremonies in the community, to the elders who run the ceremonies, and the singers and the drummers and the artists and all of those things, so I kind of went through and sifted those ideas into where I felt they aligned with the court cards best. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So, the court cards then become really positions or roles one might find oneselves in, in religion, and over time, with the traditional idea of the court cards, over time we might [00:29:27]. Over time we might be, you know, we might play this role in this community and that role in another community. And so on. So. SUSIE: Right, right. And I think hat underscores what I think sometimes we forget about court cards, which is that we can be any of them, and we are any and all of them at different times.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: So, about that … A word you brought up just before, which I think is pretty important for us to discuss, the word Pataki, the story. So can you tell us a little bit about how that is contextualized within the faith and also, we should mention, that that is the name of the book that goes with the deck, Patakis of the Orisha Tarot. Yeah. ANDREW: So, patakis are the stories of the Orishas and their practitioners that are meant to be instructive, right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: The word parable, you know, is a way to maybe give a different word for it in English.  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: And, you know, especially when we're divining, right, we'll often give a proverb, and we'll often, you know, tell a story about the Orishas. And, this is part of this oral tradition of it, that we are expressing these ideas in ways that allow us to tell the person things, in ways that are easier to hold onto, easier to integrate, that give us some meat, rather than just saying, "hey, don't do this thing," which we might also say … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: We might also tell the story of when one of the Orishas did that thing and what happened to them.  SUSIE: Yes.  ANDREW: "Oh yeah yeah, okay I see that. I shouldn't do that thing, cause this is gonna happen," right? There'll be a problem.  SUSIE: There's something about these stories that's so human and relatable, right? You know? I mean is it not the case that the Orisha themselves were at one time human or before they became more than human?  ANDREW: Well, that's a … That's a contested … Somewhat contested point of view. Many Orisha are what's known as urumole. They came from heaven. Right? They originated purely from spirit.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: There are Orishas who are considered deified ancestors, Shango being one of them, you know, Oduduwa being another one. You know, there are these spirits, these people who led great lives and led their communities and so on, and became, you know, deified after their death. The question that comes up in those conversations, then, also is were those lives that Orisha descending and living on Earth for a period of time?  SUSIE: Yes, right. Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I think that it … I think that there's no clear answers to that. But in general, the majority of the Orishas did not start as human, but originated as part of the unfolding of creation, and then came to sort of live these lives and, you know, have these stories and experiences that we now understand. And also, when we're talking about some of these stories, I think that we also need to understand that some of them, and there's no easy historical way to say which ones are not, but a good chunk of them were probably stories about priests of those spirits.  SUSIE: I see.  ANDREW: Made these mistakes in their lives. It's like, "Oh yeah, you're Bill, the priest of Obatala who lived down the road …" SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: "Remember when you did this?" "Yeah, I remember," right?  SUSIE: [laughing] Right, right.  ANDREW: And those stories become, you know, part of the myth, right? Part of the lexicon of these traditions.  SUSIE: Yes. I guess what makes me wonder, you know, what their relationship with mortality and humanity is, is because these stories, the emotions and the sort of currents that they represent are things that anyone can relate to. You know, there's jealousy, there's anger, there's, you know, there's infidelity, there's theft, there are things that you don't sort of in the same way that in the Greek mythology you see people, you see deities acting badly, right? Or in ways that show that they can make mistakes too.  ANDREW: Definitely. One of my elders likes to say, you know, "They made those mistakes, you don't need to, okay?"  SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: Right? But, you know. We're all human. We're gonna learn or we're not gonna learn. But we'll learn one way or another. Right?  SUSIE: Right, right. So, a little bit more about deck structure. So, first of all, I noticed immediately that there were some sorts of ways in which your experience with tarot informed the deck. First of all, there's a little bit of a thought sensibility, in that your Strength and Justice are ordered in the way that the Thoth deck and the Marseilles deck do, rather than the Rider-Waite-Smith. I noticed that you have ordered it wands, cups, swords, disks, fire, water, air earth, which is a very hermetic thing. And the very fact that you call them disks also comes out of the Thoth tradition. But, I also wanted to know a little bit, for example, of ... I can sort of understand where the structure for the majors comes from, but what I wanted to know a little bit more is about the pips. Because your primary reading background comes from, as far as assigning meaning to the pips, I guess would be based in Thoth originally? I wondered if there was sort of more relationship …. Would someone who comes from a Rider-Waite-Smith tradition instantly recognize, or from a Golden Dawn tradition, instantly recognize the concepts in each of these minor cards?  ANDREW: Well, I mean I think so. [laughing] SUSIE: [laughing] I can tell you that I certainly did. ANDREW: I mean, here's my hope about this deck. You know?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I mean, so, obviously, I started with the Thoth deck, and I read with that deck for many years, exclusively. But I also read a ton of books on tarot, right, during that time. And had a lot of conversations, especially once I started branching out in the communities more, and you know, I mean, I've read lots of books on the Waite-Smith tradition, and, you know, all of that sort of and a bunch of that older stuff, you know?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Hermetic or otherwise. So when I was, when I was creating this deck, there are … People who are reading the book, you'll come to some spots, you'll hit a few cards where it's like, you know, in the Marseilles tradition, people often think of this card this way, and I'll give a little bit of context, and then when you go and read it, it'll make a ton of sense.  SUSIE: Yeah.  ANDREW: And, that's really mostly because I could have, you know, I could have written ten times as much about these cards as I did. But Llewellyn said, you can only make the book [cross-laughter [00:37:02]  SUSIE: Right, right.  ANDREW: And, and I really endeavored to sort of kind of hold what I see as kind of the middle of the road on these meanings, right? I mean I didn't … the numbering is the numbering, and to me ultimately the numbering … I mean, this might be blasphemy from a hermetic point of view, but to me the numbering of the trump cards is really largely irrelevant.  SUSIE: I think it's arbitrary, yeah.  ANDREW: It's a historical precedent that's [inaudible at [00:37:30]. SUSIE: Although, although, Andrew, I think it's important that you made Elegua the Fool. I think, you know. ANDREW: For sure!  SUSIE: Yeah. As the Orisha who comes first.  ANDREW: For sure, yeah, yeah. But, but, you know, choosing Justice to be this number or that number, I'm like, eh. I almost never read the numbers when I read cards, because I just see the cards, right?  SUSIE: Right, right.  ANDREW: So, you know, this deck is really meant to be, you know, a kind of relatively even representation of tarot as it exists today, right?  SUSIE: Yeah, yeah.  ANDREW: And so, there's not … none of it's slanted too much one way or the another. There's no like "Well, you need to know that Crowley called this card the Aeon means, you know the goddess Nuit means this... SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: It's just not like that at all, right?  SUSIE: Yeah, I mean, my sensation as I was getting to know the deck was really that it was about the stories, and which story fit which card best.  ANDREW: Yeah. It's one of the things that I actually really … I wouldn't have guessed that I would have felt this was so important, but the feedback that I've gotten from the people who've gotten their books already, or gotten their copies already, who I shared advance copies with and stuff, is … including some non-tarot people who just are reading it because they really like me.  SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: The feedback I keep getting is that the material is really accessible. And to me, that's like a really important thing. You know? I didn't want to make this difficult, I avoided using as much jargon, or like, you know, Lucumí words, as much as possible. I really, you know, I didn't get into hermetic philosophy particularly anywhere. You know there are all these branches and wings of my own personal experiences and practice, that I just brought them all down to the dining hall, I was like, "All right! Let's all have lunch to talk about stuff in a general way." SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: You know, it's hard to make that happen, so.  SUSIE: Right. Well I think that, you know, I think it's really important for anyone coming to this deck to get to know the book, to read the book, really read the book, because it's, you know, it's 350 pages, it's real, it's got every single page not only has a story that's associated with the card, but also sort of breaks down the symbols that you included in the card, what its divinatory meaning might be, and sort of what the advice might be that goes with it. And I found that incredibly helpful in terms of, like, you know, if I came across a card where my own sort of tarot background wasn't making it immediately obvious to me what you were trying to do, I could just go to the book and it was really clear, you know, like within a minute. So, I think that it's … This is one of those things where … And I generally am not a person who believes that readers always have to go to the book, but I think it is really enriching and helpful to contextualize using what you wrote for this deck.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think unless somebody has a strong living practice with like, you know, with a traditional Orisha practice, yeah, it might be hard to start just by looking at it … SUSIE: Yeah, yeah.  ANDREW: Most people who come from those traditions and read cards, as well, then maybe they don't need the book as much, you know. It's always interesting as I share the images on the, you know, on social media and stuff, I get, you know, priests jumping on the thing, and like, "how you choose to represent this here! it's perfect!" you know? SUSIE: [laughing] right. ANDREW: They just get it, right? Because they have both of those pieces. But it's so nice to see people be moved to see themselves and to see the tradition in this way, which is really gratifying.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. Before we move off structure and start talking a little bit more about the art and the specific cards, is there a sort of through line in each suit that we should be looking for? Something that's going on in wands only, something that's going on in cups or swords or disks?  ANDREW: That was … That was a notion that I abandoned along the way. You know, in making a deck there always comes this point where the reality check steps in, and you're like, this is the limit of what I can do, you know.  SUSIE: Yeah, yeah.  ANDREW: And the sort of the idea that there was sort of one through line for each set of suits, I didn't really, I couldn't really find it, and you know there are a couple other ideas about levels of detail and symbolic representations that I just realized I'd be spending another five years like hand-drawing beaded things all day… SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: I'm like, that can't happen.  SUSIE: Right, and if … I mean there are certainly color and number correspondences you could have worked with but, by forcing it into you know, existing tarot structure or hermetic structure I think you would have been doing something that was not necessarily conducive to the most rich environment of reading these cards. ANDREW: Exactly. SUSIE: You know what I mean? Yeah, although, I'm looking at … I've sorted it out, separated my deck out, Ace, Cups Swords, sorry, Wands, Cups, Swords, I'm looking at the Aces, and there's definitely, I get at least just from my background, I get an elemental feeling off of those cards, you know, a fire, water, air, earth feeling, and even if that's not something that you intended to do or carried throughout the deck, there's still something there, I think. ANDREW: For sure. I mean, in making this deck it's definitely … A lot of stuff just emerged in the creative process. And although I spent a lot of time thinking and writing and making notes about what went where and why and so on, when I sat down to make the cards, a lot of stuff just emerged as part of that process, you know, from the news, from the creativity, by chance or whatever, my own conscious formulated it, so there's a lot of stuff in there that happened as I was making the cards, it wasn't necessarily fully thought out … SUSIE: But which is just part of you, as a reader and a practitioner. ANDREW: Yeah. I mean, you spend 32 years working with the tarot, right?  SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: It's a lot of ideas in the back of the brain there that are trying to come out in one way or another.  SUSIE: Right. So, let's talk a little bit about the way the cards look for those people who haven't been lucky enough to pick up their decks yet. It's a gorgeous production, first of all, I think you, you know … the artwork's just stunning, and Llewellyn did a great job, I think, as well. First of all it's a borderless deck, which, thank you! [laughing] That's …  ANDREW: Llewellyn let me do something that they had never done before, which was: all of the titles are handwritten.  SUSIE: Yeah! Yeah! ANDREW: [crosstalking [00:44:55] to the cards. They're not obscured, they're easy enough to see when you're looking … SUSIE: You can find them.  ANDREW: [crosstalking] Off of the bottom. They fit in more with the artwork, so it's easier to kind of just look at the artwork, or just look for the title when you need to.  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: That was something that we had a bunch of conversations with …  SUSIE: I think it was a brilliant choice. Because, you know, it really foregrounds the story of the art. The art fills the frame, you know, everything about it allows you to immerse yourself in what's going on in that picture, and then secondarily you, you know, check out whatever title it was so you can sort of match it up with your own tarot knowledge. But I really appreciated that and I'm really glad that they made that decision and you, you know, suggested it. And also, the colors are so saturated and so bold. So the texture and look that you were going for was based on Gwash, right?  ANDREW: Well, so, actually, what I was … So, I used to paint in Gwash a lot, before I had kids. But, you know, having kids, and having a space to set up art, you know, a small, urban space, isn't really that easy, right?  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: So certainly, that's a piece of my sensibility and my aesthetic, but part of what I was really looking for was, you know, starting, it's hard to date now, but starting quite a while ago, I went from being super structured and really trying to sort of make everything perfect, to really kind of moving to a more gestural and looser way of working. And so, you know, this kind of comes out of that, you know, sort of move away from you know, sort of pursuing absolute realism to pursuing something else. And then, the other piece of the aesthetic is, you know, I wanted to include different pieces of symbolism, but I didn't want to make it look like the Thoth deck where there are so many symbols that you don't really know what to look at sometimes.  SUSIE: Yes, yes.  ANDREW: And so, one of the things that I decided along the way was, you know, there's a lot of use of textiles, especially in Africa and west Africa, and the Orisha traditions, there's a lot of use of textiles in making thrones, in making ceremonial outfits, you know, in making panuelos, which are these elaborate cloths that we put on top of the Orisha sometimes. And so I wanted to kind of have a reference to that without trying to like emulate it or create like, recreate specific patterns, but use that visual idea to create a space for that symbolic language to hold, right?  SUSIE: Yes.  ANDREW: For the use of number, and through whatever other symbols got added to those designs and so on. So.  SUSIE: Yeah, I really picked up on the fact that the design sensibility behind this had that sort of sense of, you know, scope and flow and bold lines that you get in textile. And, you know, that's not something you always see in tarot, and so it was really kind of a relief to the eye to sort of not get too, I don't know, bound up in the busy?  ANDREW: mm-hmm. SUSIE: Yeah. I think what we see is sort of a looseness of the line, and … But at the same time a real exactness in terms of what symbols you wanted to portray and the way that you foregrounded them in each card. So, so, you did this actually on an iPad, right?  ANDREW: I did, yeah. I did all of this digitally. I've been working pretty much exclusively digitally for the last five or six years now, I guess, ever since …  SUSIE: Yeah. And does that have to do with being busy, being a parent, you know, just trying to live life in addition to being an artist?  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean I don't have a studio space, you know, I don't have … Toronto is apparently one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in, thanks for that, whoever's responsible for that … SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: But space is certainly at a premium. And, you know, the only space where I maybe could do more studio type work is at the shop, and I already spend lots of time at the shop seeing clients and doing other stuff. I don't really want to be at work even if it's sort of as a creative outlet. And the iPad, you know, it's always with me, and when I was making this deck , I would just be like, oh, I've got an hour, time to work on one of the cards a bit. You know?  SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: Here's some writing. Or whatever. It's just, it's always at hand, it's super portable, and especially, I got an iPad Pro, like one of the big ones, and an Apple pencil, which finally I was able to make happen through the process and you know, it's the best thing ever, it's just … SUSIE: Yeah, and if you get interrupted, you can just save it, and pick it up later.  ANDREW: And I'm sure, like from a production point of view too, you can work in layers, like in Photoshop … SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: It's a real treat. So all the backgrounds are their own layers and all the symbols SUSIE: That's great, yeah.  ANDREW: The line work symbols and stuff. So if I make a mistake, if I change my mind later … SUSIE: Right, right. Plus it gives you more freedom. I mean if you're doing a background you don't want to just stop to make room for the foreground, right?  ANDREW: Right? Yeah. All also, I just sent all the Photoshops to Llewellyn, and they asked me if they could take some of them apart and use pieces for making the box and other stuff, which they did, which is fantastic. I'm so delighted with it. It just, it allows for a variety of options in a way that traditional mediums just don't, you know?  SUSIE: Yeah, I was really excited to realize that you did this in a digital format like that just because I didn't know that you could create art like this in that way and have it come out looking so good. You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: And the other thing is that I just, I thought it was really funny, that just practically speaking, that it made so much sense for you. This is one of my hobby horses, the idea of just how difficult it is to be both a parent and a practitioner, you know, just to live your life and try to do this work is a constant struggle. Like, you know, you're in the middle of a banishing ritual and some kid is like, coming through saying, Mom, I missed the bus! ANDREW: Yeah! SUSIE: I mean, it's like it's every day, you know, trying to make that work is tricky for a lot of us. So I'm glad you found a way to make this happen.  ANDREW: Me too.  SUSIE: Okay, so I'd love to, if you feel like it, I'd love to talk a little bit about specific cards. If you could just give me a second, I have to plug … My laptop's going to run out of charge. I just have to plug it in real quick. ANDREW: Yeah. SUSIE: Just, be right there. [pause] Okay, we're good. And I can strip that out of the tape, later on, if you want. Okay. So, let's talk about a couple majors. I wanted to return to the Fool card, cause I think that's super important, where you have Elegua, who is, I guess, you know I don't want to make the mistake of trying to do too much equivalency here, but he is the one who makes communication possible as I understand it.  ANDREW: Yeah. Elegua is the Orisha we speak to first in every ceremony, because he opens and closes the ways, and Elegua is all of the communication everywhere, on every single level, right. If we think about the communication between every cell in your body is that communication between the parts of the universe, you know, nothing exists or could happen without Elegua being there to facilitate that transfer of information from one place to another.  SUSIE: Right. Right. And so, I think, you know, that's what makes it so important and so appropriate that he's the first card in the deck. You have to, even to open your mouth, to gather the air to speak, you have to be there, right, although he also has a presence in a number of other cards as well. And what people will see, when they look at it, is, I guess the, a common representation of Elegua is the kind of stone or concrete head with the cowrie shells embedded in it, right?  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, when people … A common solution, a relatively common solution to troubles in people's lives is to receive what's referred to as the Warriors … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Which is Elegua, Ogun and Ochossi. It's an initiation that you don't have to be a priest to have. Anybody can receive this if it's marked or required. And they come into your life to help you fight your problems and overcome your obstacles and so on. And what there's actually, people are really accustomed to seeing these cement heads with the cowrie shells, but traditionally depending on your lineage, Elegua is … they have marked the path of Elegua, and there are many ways in which Elegua might be made. But I chose to make the one that people understand the most because I wanted it to be somewhat familiar to people, for sure.  SUSIE: Right, and this is actually a symbol that ordinary people might have in their homes, right?  ANDREW: Maybe.  SUSIE: Yeah, yeah. Well, just real quick, after I got your deck, I had the craziest dream, where I dreamed that I got up and I went outside. And this was around midnight. And the UPS truck comes, [laughing] and gives me a package with my name on it, and I open it and I suddenly start to feel really strange like I'm high or I've taken something or ingested some kind of substance, like, just through opening the package. And then I was instantly transported into some kind of rite that was going on in my dining room. And Elegua was there. [laughing] And I thought this was, obviously this is not, I knew almost nothing before this week about this tradition, but, and I certainly have no way of knowing what significance that had or what, you know I certainly can't speak for the tradition in any way, but I thought it was, so interesting that, you know, my dream maker chose to take the delivery of your deck to me as this kind of mind-altering frame-shifting event. and then introduce, you know, this personification of communication, the opener of the ways, into the dream.  ANDREW: Yup. Indeed. SUSIE: So I was very grateful for that experience. Okay. The only other major I really wanted to make sure we talked about was the Priestess card.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: Because it's not what people would ordinarily expect to see in a Priestess card, and I thought you could talk a little bit about what we're looking at and how it relates to the High Priestess we know and love.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, this is actually one of the cards that gave me the biggest trouble.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: I spent a lot of time working on this card, they're a bunch of drawings that got scrapped along the way, because I was just like, no, nope, no, no, no, that's not gonna cut it, that's too simple, that's too this, that's too whatever, right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: You know, so what we see in the Priestess card, is we see a bunch of cowrie shells, right?  SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And the dillogun, or the cowrie shells, are you know one of the traditional tools of divination. For olocha, for priests in the way that I'm a priest, it's the way in which we speak with the Orishas. And, when we divine with the shells, we pray, and we invoke an opening with Elegua or whoever, for an Odu, for a sign, like a, the idea almost like a card to sort of … But those energies, those Odu, are the living unfolding of the universe, right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So, they represent all of the knowledge that was and is and all of the possible knowledge of the future, or the possible unfoldings of the future. And so, those energies that arrive when we do a reading, and come to play in the life of the person who gets the reading done … It's actually a serious ceremony to get a reading.  SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: It alters the course of your life, right? And, you know when we think of the Priestess or the Papess, right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: One of the things that we can talk about is knowledge, right? And it's deep metaphysical knowledge, right?  SUSIE: Right. Which isn't readily accessible to you at a surface level.  ANDREW: And, when we think about the Hierophant or the Pope as sort of the outer face of spirituality, the High Priestess is the inner face. She's the inner mystery of that, right?  SUSIE: Right . ANDREW: And she is that knowledge which is hard to get to, that knowledge which is hard won, and that knowledge which is tied to a deep respect and a deep cosmic awareness of the nature of the universe, right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And so this Odu and the method of divination and the process of divination, to me mirrors that, right?  SUSIE: Correct.  ANDREW: And so the shells become the mouth of the Priestess, right? And if we look at it in a sort of Rider Waite symbol, right? Cascarilla and the Ota, the black stone?  SUSIE: Yes! ANDREW: They mirror, we use those in the divination process, but they mirror those two columns … SUSIE: The boas and jacim, yeah.  ANDREW: The positive and negative vibrations that are in that sort of duality.  SUSIE: And those are a kind of … Are they a yes/no kind of stand-in?  ANDREW: Yeah, we use them and other things to ask specific questions within a reading. We each have … There's about a half dozen Ibo that all have ritual significance, and we use them in different ways depending on the nature of the question we're asking.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And then the other thing that's going on in this card is, usually people divine on a straw mat or a tray … SUSIE: Yeah.  ANDREW: With cowrie shells. And some people use a wooden tray, maybe, but more often than not a straw mat. So, I wanted to create this idea of the straw mat, but then this idea that below it is this sort of cosmic opening, right? This connection to everything.  SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: So, this is actually probably one of the most abstracted cards in the whole deck … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: In that it doesn't really show an Orisha or a thing that is sort of easily connectable, but I think that it really represents a sort of, that depth of knowledge and connection, direct connection to the voice of creation, that I associate with the High Priestess and that you know I associate with this divination process.  SUSIE: Yes. Now the Odu themselves, they're transmitted orally, right? It's not something that you just pick up a book, and not anyone can do it.  ANDREW: Yes. If you're not a priest, you cannot do cowrie shells, right?  SUSIE: Got you.  ANDREW: There's no … The best thing we could say is that you don't have the spiritual license, and my elders would be quite clear, you know, you can do anything you want with these shells, but they don't speak for the Orishas, therefore whatever you get is irrelevant.  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: You know … SUSIE: So it's not like what we think of … As tarot readers, we just pick up a deck and anyone can give it a go, this is something that you really need to go through initiation and be crowned as a priest to do.  ANDREW: And spend a long time studying, right? You know you need to understand that there are 256, technically 257 signs. Each of those signs has a specific hierarchical order of Orishas that speak in them. Each of them has proverbs, songs, ceremonies, offerings, taboos, patakis, and then each of those signs can come in ire, like the sign of blessing, or asobo, the negative sign, and then there are many kinds of ire and osogbo, and if you start to multiply those out, you start to realize how many different permutations are possible in this system . SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: It takes a very long time and a lot of study to really come to understand what all those things mean.  SUSIE: Yeah, and is that something that … So, this is something that you might do as a priest, correct?  ANDREW: Yeah.  SUSIE: And did you internalize all of those 256, 257 signs or was it, is it an ongoing study? How does that work for you?  ANDREW: There's no end to the study. [laughing] SUSIE: Right. [laughing] ANDREW: Like hermeticism. When do you know enough?  SUSIE: Oh, you never know enough. No no no … [laughing] Right. Okay. Well that's really helpful in terms of getting into the card. Are there any other majors that you'd kind of like to draw attention to before we look at minors?  ANDREW: No, I'm happy to take your lead. SUSIE: Great. And honestly I would like to go through every single card in the deck, and I was having a lot of trouble sort of singling out a few that might be interesting to talk about, but given our time constraints, we'll just focus on some. I was looking at … the Nine of Wands, we're kind of going in order here, Nine of Wands [static at [01:04:39] see in this card, it's so interesting, because as I understand it, from your story, this is a representation of Yamaya, or one of her avatars I guess … ANDREW: Yeah. SUSIE: And there's a shipwreck, or an underwater ship, and [static] got a knife, and the knife has clearly just been used. So, maybe you can tell us a little bit about that.  ANDREW: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that people … In making the deck, I wanted to disrupt people's preconceived notions, right?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Of certain things. You know, like people, it's common for people to say, yeah yeah yeah, if you want love, go and talk to Ochún. Right? And Ochún will help you find love.  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: He might, it's possible, but sometimes [inaudible] Ochún in what context and so on and so on, right? But you know, Ochún also doesn't really dig people complaining very much, it's not a thing that she's really that into … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So, depending on the attitude that you're feeling about this, Ochún might also be irritated by you approaching her about it, it's very hard to say.  SUSIE: Yeah.  ANDREW: Which is why, you know, traditional practitioners divine, right?  SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: Because the good answer is, in traditional divination, any Orisha that offers to help you with a problem can help you with that problem.  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: Whether we sort of generally associate that with being their purview or not, doesn't really matter, because if they say they're gonna help, they're gonna help, and you just say thank you, right?  SUSIE: Right.  ANDREW: And, so when we think about Yamaya, people think about Yamaya as a sort of loving mother energy, as a sort of always supportive energy, right? You know?  SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: We really sometimes people are sent to work with her when they need sort of grounding and stabilizing of emotions … SUSIE: Yeah.  ANDREW: But, you know, Yamaya also has many roads and many avatars, right? So we're talking about, you know, Obu Okotu, it's not gentle, she's really a lot more like a shark, right?  SUSIE: mm-hmm. And so, you know, the idea, the thing that people often say, is that when the ship wrecks, she grabs the sailors and takes them down to their fate, right?  SUSIE: Yeah.  ANDREW: And so there's this real sort of show of strength and power with her that isn't what we would normally associate with it, but which is 100 percent a part of her personality, or at least her personality on that path, right?  SUSIE: Right. And I actually thought that this was … You know, the more I thought about it, the more it tied to my own understanding of this card. I mean when I think of the Nine of Wands, I think of someone who has been derived their strength from the vicissitudes of life, from the experiences of having suffered and having learned.  ANDREW: Yeah. SUSIE: And I think that … I also think of it as a very lunar card, so that made it kind of feel familiar to me as well. But also, the fact that power has a personality and ruthlessness to it, as well.  ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the Nine of Wands often turns up to speak of people who are strong clear incredibly competent, and sometimes hard for other people to relate to because of those things, right?  SUSIE: Yeah. They've been through a lot.  ANDREW: Yeah, for sure.  SUSIE: Yeah. Okay. Fascinating. And plus, it's just beautiful. You see the body of Yamaya, but at first you may not even recognize that it's a human form because of the blue on blue, it's a very underwater card. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Looking at -- Oh, you know, one of my favorite cards of all is your Ten of Cups. And, which I did receive this week, once, and what I love about it is the story that goes along with it. So maybe you could talk about that a little bit.  Sure. So when we were talking earlier in the podcast about picking your Ore or picking your destiny, right? This card represents that process, right?  SUSIE: mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, when everybody's hanging out in Orun, up on the other side, you know where we're all spirits, eventually, people for whatever reasons decide it's time to come back to earth. You know, decide it's time to come back down here, you know, to the marketplace, to hang out and party, to fulfill something they haven't fulfilled, whatever it may be. And when they make that decision, they go, as my elders described it, you go down the hall to this room where Adela, who is the Orisha who crafts these destinies, as a series of sealed gourds … SUSIE: And that's the picture that we see on the card, we see Ajala with the gourds.  ANDREW: Yeah, I mean I think of it more as a person choosing their destiny. SUSIE: Oh, I see! ANDREW: But maybe.  SUSIE: Could be.  ANDREW: Adula, as far as I know, I've never come across any personifications of them … SUSIE: So this, so in your mind, this was the soul choosing which one. ANDREW: But, and we don't have a sort of super clear sense of karma or carry over from one life to another. It's not really … it's a mystery that we acknowledge that we don't fully understand, right? So you go into a room full of sealed gourds, and you pick something, and you really don't know, it could be horrible, right? It could be great, whatever. But if you've been good friends with Elegua, you know, and you've kind of kept good faith with him, maybe you reach out for something and he gives a little cough and says hey, not that one. SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: Don't take that one. Right?  SUSIE: And I love this that you have this little sketch of Elegua under the table, you know, very quiet. Very subtle. Yeah. [laughing] Just giving you a hint.  ANDREW: Yeah. So once you pick your destiny, you go back and see your creator, and then your soul goes into a body.  SUSIE: And you can see in the background of the card, you can see the outline of the Earth, so this idea that you're outside the material realm at that moment, choosing your fate, yeah, mm-hmm. I think that's just really beautiful. And I think it's quite relatable to, you know, in a traditional sense to the Ten of Cups, which I at least think of as the end of a cycle, you know, I often think of it as the end of the complete sequence of minors in some ways, because if you go through correspondences it immediately precedes the Two of Wands. But there's also this feeling, you know when you see the family on the Rider-Waite-Smith Ten of Cups, of this sort of being, they're taking a bow. This destiny is finished! And we're looking towards the next.  ANDREW: People … the belief is that people tend to reincarnate along family

Today's Bonus Episode asks if there's a way to make sense of the Supreme Court's Lukumi jurisprudence in light of this week's rulings in Trump v. Hawaii (the Travel Ban), Masterpiece Cakeshop, and the somewhat surprising decision to remand the Arlene's Flowers case back to the state of Washington. We begin, however, by checking in with the Southern District of New York's Order approving the Taint Team's review of documents seized from Michael Cohen's offices by the Department of Justice.  How many documents did the Team recommend the Court withhold as privileged?  The answer may surprise you! After that, we revisit the thesis advanced by Andrew Seidel in Episode 180 that the Supreme Court's decision in Masterpiece Cakeshop might result in a more vigorous application of its 1993 decision in Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 (1993). Next, we break down the Supreme Court's 5-4 decision in NIFLA v. Becerra, in which the Court struck down a California law regulating so-called "crisis pregnancy centers." After all that, we end with an all new Thomas Takes The Bar Exam #82 involving the legality of a search for heroin.  If you'd like to play along, just retweet our episode on Twitter or share it on Facebook along with your guess and the #TTTBE hashtag.  We'll release the answer on next Tuesday's episode along with our favorite entry! Recent Appearances None!  If you'd like to have either of us as a guest on your show, drop us an email at openarguments@gmail.com. Show Notes & Links Check out the Southern District of New York's Order regarding Cohen's meager haul of privileged documents. Andrew Seidel set forth his "Lukumi bar" thesis in Episode 180; you can read Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 (1993) for yourself and then compare it with both Trump v. Hawaii and Masterpiece Cakeshop. We discussed Planned Parenthood v. Casey at length in a two-part series:  Episode 27 and Episode 28; you might want to compare the statute approved in that case with the one struck down by the Court in NIFLA v. Becerra. Support us on Patreon at:  patreon.com/law Follow us on Twitter:  @Openargs Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/openargs/ Don't forget the OA Facebook Community! And email us at openarguments@gmail.com  

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Welcome to the first episode of the Orisha Wisdom Podcast!  This episode is a short one to introduce myself, this podcast and a fun topic "Priests are People too".   This podcast will cover many issues regarding the Orisha and Ifa traditions mainly within two traditions - Yoruba and Lukumi, and will cover inspiration, and empowerment - all elements which can be implemented in our modern world!  For more details go to www.orishawisdom.com/podcast/    

Yoruba Singers - Black Pepper Dj Friendly Edit By Petko Turner. The music of the Yoruba people of Nigeria, Togo, and Benin are perhaps best known for an extremely advanced drumming tradition, especially using the dundun hourglass tension drums. Yoruba folk music became perhaps the most prominent kind of West African music in Afro-Latin and Caribbean musical styles. Yorùbá music left an especially important influence on the music used in Lukumi practice and the music of Cuba. For a comprehensive discussion of Yoruba music, see Bode Omojola's book, Yoruba Music in the Twentieth Century (University of Rochester Press, 2012).

This is a brief introduction to terms relating to Ifá faith practice that are referenced in our primary podcast episode "Beyond The Songs, There is Something Deeper." 

In the second episode of our free podscast series “NYC Faith Leaders,” Babalawo Antonio Mondesire reflects on his journey to the Ifá priesthood, a life story weaving together culture, race, politics, faith, all expressed and influenced by the power of music. Baba Tony was born in the Bronx to parents of Puerto Rican and Eastern Caribbean (Dominica) ancestry.  He is an Ifá Priest, Spiritual Counselor, Educator, and Percussionist.  The spiritual title Babaláwo (or Baba for short) literally means “father of esoteric studies,” and the term “Ifá” may be translated as “encoded, esoteric, universal knowledge, wisdom and understanding.” The ancient tradition of Ifá is held in high esteem among the Yoruba people of West Africa, and throughout the African diaspora.  The colonial slave trade brought the tradition of Ifá to Cuba and other Caribbean nations, and more recent patterns of immigration have brought it to the United States directly from Yoruba land and Nigeria. In Cuba, the Yoruba practice of praying to God, Oludumare, was achieved through relationships with the Orisha, or spirits – what Baba Tony calls God’s deputies and emissaries to humanity. Enslaved Africans found ways to camouflage Orisha with attributes of Roman Catholic saints in order to comply by the laws of the state, circumvent sanctions and avoid persecution for practicing any expression of African religion. What began as a survival adaptation has since evolved into a diaspora model for African inspired spirituality.  “Santeria” remains a common term for Yoruba religious expressions in the United States and the Caribbean, however, the more accurate term is Lukumi, or simply Yoruba. Throughout our interview, Baba Tony describes how both the Ifá and Lukumi spiritual traditions – as well as the inspiration of music – came together in his search for identity, meaning, and theological grounding.

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results! My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 (NOON US CST) and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: (And always in archive at your leisure and convenience: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince ) NOON US CST!   #HoodooTye #OloyeHoodooObeahBokor #RespectTheVoodoo! Xxx   #TheWitchDoctorYellowPocahontas #BlackHawkVoodooChiefDivinePrince   “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is an illusion.” ~The Divine Prince http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye  

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results! My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 (NOON US CST) and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: (And always in archive at your leisure and convenience: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince ) NOON US CST!   #HoodooTye #OloyeHoodooObeahBokor #RespectTheVoodoo! Xxx   #TheWitchDoctorYellowPocahontas #BlackHawkVoodooChiefDivinePrince   “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is an illusion.” ~The Divine Prince     http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye  

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results! My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 (NOON US CST)  and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: (And always in archive at your leisure and convenience: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince ) NOON US CST!   #HoodooTye #OloyeHoodooObeahBokor #RespectTheVoodoo! xxx #TheWitchDoctorYellowPocahontas #BlackHawkVoodooChiefDivinePrince   “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is an illusion.” ~The Divine Prince     http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.mycampage.com/TheDivinePrince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye  

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results! My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 (NOON US CST)  and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: (And always in archive at your leisure and convenience: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince ) NOON US CST!   #HoodooTye #OloyeHoodooObeahBokor #RespectTheVoodoo! xxx #TheWitchDoctorYellowPocahontas #BlackHawkVoodooChiefDivinePrince   “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is an illusion.” ~The Divine Prince     http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.mycampage.com/TheDivinePrince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye                 

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results! My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 (NOON US CST)  and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: (And always in archive at your leisure and convenience: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince ) NOON US CST!   #HoodooTye #OloyeHoodooObeahBokor #RespectTheVoodoo! xxx #TheWitchDoctorYellowPocahontas #BlackHawkVoodooChiefDivinePrince   “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is an illusion.” ~The Divine Prince     http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.mycampage.com/TheDivinePrince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye  

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results!                                                  My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 (NOON US CST)  and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince/       #HoodooTye #OloyeHoodooObeahBokor #RespectTheVoodoo! xxx #TheWitchDoctorYellowPocahontas #BlackHawkVoodooChiefDivinePrince   “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is an illusion.” ~The Divine Prince     http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.mycampage.com/TheDivinePrince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye  

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results!                                               My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 (NOON US CST)  and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince/       #HoodooTye #OloyeHoodooObeahBokor #RespectTheVoodoo! xxx #TheWitchDoctorYellowPocahontas #BlackHawkVoodooChiefDivinePrince   “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is an illusion.” ~The Divine Prince     http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye                     

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results!   My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 (NOON US CST)  and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince/       #HoodooTye #OloyeHoodooObeahBokor #RespectTheVoodoo! xxx #TheWitchDoctorYellowPocahontas #BlackHawkVoodooChiefDivinePrince   “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is an illusion.” ~The Divine Prince     http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye  

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results!   Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Secrets and Recipes with The Divine Prince, House of the Divine Prince, TyE Potions and Hoodoo Central on BTR. #HoodooTye #OloyeHoodooObeahBokor #RespectTheVoodoo Specializing in Results EVERYDAY!   My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince/     http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye   “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is illusionary.” ~The Divine Prince

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results! Specializing in Results EVERYDAY!   My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince/     http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com  http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.facebook.com/TheDivinePrince http://www.mycampage.com/TheDivinePrince http://www.youtube.com/VoodooTye     “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is illusionary.” ~The Divine Prince  

Do you want to just talk about it or are you ready for POWERFUL life affirming transforming lasting results and manifestation? Psychics CAN Predict BUT New Orleans Voodoo and Hoodoo Gets Results! Sharing Voodoo Secrets and Recipes. The Honor and Worship of Ancestors. Result Orientied Practice and Innerstanding for todays world. House of the Divine Prince, TyE Potions and Hoodoo Central New Orleans, Louisiana

MOJUGBA< a Yoruba word for GIVE HOMAGE. A GATHERING of ECLECTIC, CREATIVE BEINGS of POSITIVE VIBRATIONS through MUSIC, DANCE, & SPIRITUALITY.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 LET US BE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF OUR ANCESTORS OF IFA THROUGH RESPECTFUL  SHARED DISCUSSIONS OF HOT TOPICS FROM FB GROUP: IFA-ORISA-EGUN TALKS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 LET US BE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF OUR ANCESTORS OF IFA THROUGH RESPECTFUL  SHARED DISCUSSIONS OF HOT TOPICS FROM FB GROUP: IFA-ORISA-EGUN TALKS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 LET US BE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF OUR ANCESTORS OF IFA THROUGH RESPECTFUL  SHARED DISCUSSIONS OF HOT TOPICS FROM FB GROUP: IFA-ORISA-EGUN TALKS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 LET US BE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF OUR ANCESTORS OF IFA THROUGH RESPECTFUL  SHARED DISCUSSIONS OF HOT TOPICS FROM FB GROUP: IFA-ORISA-EGUN TALKS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 FIRST SHOW: IFA LOVE AND RELATIONSHIPS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 FIRST SHOW: IFA LOVE AND RELATIONSHIPS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 FIRST SHOW: IFA LOVE AND RELATIONSHIPS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 FIRST SHOW: IFA LOVE AND RELATIONSHIPS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 FIRST SHOW: IFA LOVE AND RELATIONSHIPS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

 HOT TOPICS WITH MAMA YEYE SPICY WEEKLY HOT TOPIC DISCUSSIONS  ABOUT  IFA. 9:00 P.M. CALL IN 347-989-0180 FIRST SHOW: IFA LOVE AND RELATIONSHIPS MEET MAMA YEYE Mama Yeye was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! Her spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. She had training in herbs began with her mother Elmira Farrell and her spiritual training began with a maternal great aunt, named Caroline E. Thomas and many members of her extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. Mama Yeye says she give thanks and praises to all of our ancestors for without them, we would not be. Her first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 she became initiated into Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa, and she relocated back to the islands. In 2000, Mama Yeye returned to St. Thomas and started by business that she still runs today of Traditional Healing, providing spiritual readings, cleanings and guidance to those on their spiritual paths. In 2001 she received first initiation to Ifa by Babalawo Osasee in Puerto Rico and received Ifa odu, Osa Ose, the same as her Oluwo but this relationship did not last long as it was a Lukumi Ifa house as well. In 2010,Mama Yeye made connection with Babalawo Oyasogo Ifakorede of Ajitena Temple, Oyo Nigeria and has been working with him and all the Babalawos and Iyanifawos since then. As a result of these undertakings, she received a Chieftancy title of Erelu Abiye in the Ajitena Temple Ogboni Miami branch under Olowo Fakayode.

YHOW’S HOUR OF POWER Spiritual Guidance with Weekly Odu and Unity Prayer Ifa Odu interpretation done on Ifa 4 day prayer. Spiritual Leader and Teacher-Guest Speaker. Oloye Fapounka Ayaba Eegungbemi YORU'BA' HOUSE OF WORSHIP, INC. (YHOW) is honored to present  Oloye Fapounka Ayaba Eegungbemi also known as Mama Yeye as the first Guest Speaker and Teacher. The following paragraphs are excerpts of her story. "I was born and raised in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands! My spiritual background began with my matriarchal linage of herbalist and spiritualist on both sides of my family. My training in herbs began with my mother Elmira Farrell and my spiritual training began with my maternal great aunt, Caroline E. Thomas and many members of my extended family unit whose names are too numerous to mention here. I give thanks and praises to all my ancestors for without them, I would not be. My first initiation was in 1991 into the order of Palo Mayombe as Yayi Nkizi (Mother of Spirits) to Mama Chola and Lucero by my late Tata Bisuako, in Miami, Fl. In 1999 I became initiated Lukumi to Orisa Oshun Ibu Kole and Ogun, Alagbede by Iya Alabumi but was instructed by Ita to follow the Traditional route to Orisa..." This show is about the IFA Lessons learned                                             Tune in to hear Mama Yeye discuss Ifa-Orisa-Egun lessons, as a Priestess on her Ifa journey. Hear the rest of her story. Thursday, October 24, 2013 at 9 PM, Call in # 347-989-0180  

Lazaro Pedroso Santeria (Way of the Saints) Join TNS Host Michael Lerner in conversation with Lázaro Pedroso, 79, a percussionist and singer from Havana, Cuba. For 50 years, he has been a Santero (priest in the Afro-Cuban Santeria religion). Santeria involves polyrhythms, song, and dance. There are herbal elements, musical elements, magical elements, and prayers, carried over by West African slaves. Lázaro is a professor at two major universities in Havana teaching folkloric tradition, and a sought- after priest who sings ceremonies. He has published Lazo (a translation of 72 songs sung to the spirits of deceased ancestors in the tradition of the Afro-Cuban Santeria religion), Olodumare (an essential encyclopedia of the tradition of the Afro-Cuban Santeria religion), and Patakia (a dictionary of ancient Yoruba words, translated to Spanish and then to English. Lázaro Pedroso Lázaro is a scholar of the song traditions of Yoruba-Lukumí. The Lukumi community in Cuba originated with kidnapped Africans from Oyo, Egbado, and other Yoruba areas in Nigeria and Benin, Africa. Lázaro is a respected batá player, and an elder of the Yoruba-Lukumí tradition, with a half century of experience as a santero (a mediator between people and Olodumare, the Creator) in Havana. Lázaro has been employed as professor of folkloric percussion and professor of the Escuela National de Arte, Instituto Superior de Arte, and senior adviser of the Centro Superior de la Enseñanza Artistica in Havana. He has participated as a musician in festivals of music and dance throughout Cuba. He has also traveled internationally as a leading participant in a folkloric performance tour of France in 1994, a teaching and performance excursion to Mexico in the year 1992, and in 2001 to the United States to give performances, workshops, and classes. Find out more about The New School at tns.commonweal.org.

KDCL Media in conjunction with The H20 Network and the CLBA presents Iya Carmen P. Rodriguez who as a child in the late 1930’s, trained at the traditional Spiritualist Temple operated by her father in Cuba, and continues spiritualist work to this day. She is a Lukumi priestess of 42 years to the Orisha Yemaya, and a founding member of the Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye.  The show is in Spanish and English with Oba Oriate Ernesto Pichardo, Lukumi Elder and president of the Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, as Iya Carmen's interpreter. KDCL Media on FB The H20 Network on FB CLBA on FB  

  The POWER Lunch: Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Secrets, and Recipes http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince Daily at NOON CST Listen In and Call In number is 347/215-8967www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.comwww.facebook.com/TheDivinePrince www.keen.com/Divine+Prince   The POWER Lunch: Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Secrets and Recipes with The Divine Prince Ty Emmecca. Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Obeah Bokor Orisha Priest With Hands of Ifa Congo Square Preservation Society Ancestral Elegun Guardians of the Flame Maroon Society Voodoo Chief Divine Prince     New Orleans culture and tradition, Special Guest, Ritual and International Music, Mardi Gras Indians Culture and Music, Black Hawk, Ifa, Santeria, Lukumi, Nago, Indigenous Spirituality and Religion.

  The POWER Lunch: Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Secrets, and Recipes http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince Daily at NOON CST Listen In and Call In number is 347/215-8967www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.comwww.facebook.com/TheDivinePrince www.keen.com/Divine+Prince   The POWER Lunch: Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Secrets and Recipes with The Divine Prince Ty Emmecca. Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Obeah Bokor Orisha Priest With Hands of Ifa Congo Square Preservation Society Ancestral Elegun Guardians of the Flame Maroon Society Voodoo Chief Divine Prince     New Orleans culture and tradition, Special Guest, Ritual and International Music, Mardi Gras Indians Culture and Music, Black Hawk, Ifa, Santeria, Lukumi, Nago, Indigenous Spirituality and Religion.

KDCL Media in conjunction with The H20 Network and the CLBA presents Class 2 with Iya Carmen P. Rodriguez who as a child in the late 1930’s, trained at the traditional Spiritualist Temple operated by her father in Cuba, and continues her spiritualist work to this day. She is a Lukumi priestess of 42 years to the Orisha Yemaya, and a founding member of the Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye.  As this show is in both Spanish and English, Iya Carmen will be joined by Oba Oriate Ernesto Pichardo, Lukumi Elder and president of the Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, who will act as translator. KDCL Media on FB The H20 Network on FB CLBA on FB If you missed Class 1, you can find it here: Old Guard Spiritualism with Iya Carmen P. Rodriquez

Fire Water Friday The POWER Lunch: Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Secrets, and Recipes http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince Daily at NOON CST Listen In and Call In number is 347/215-8967www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.comwww.facebook.com/TheDivinePrince www.keen.com/Divine+Prince   The POWER Lunch: Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Secrets and Recipes with The Divine Prince Ty Emmecca. Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Obeah Bokor Orisha Priest With Hands of Ifa Congo Square Preservation Society Ancestral Elegun Guardians of the Flame Maroon Society Voodoo Chief Divine Prince     New Orleans culture and tradition, Special Guest, Ritual and International Music, Mardi Gras Indians Culture and Music, Black Hawk, Ifa, Santeria, Lukumi, Nago, Indigenous Spirituality and Religion.

As a child in the late 1930’s, Carmen P. Rodriguez trained at the traditional Spiritualist Temple operated by her father in Cuba, and continues her spiritualist work to this day. She is a Lukumi priestess of 42 years to the Orisha Yemaya, and a founding member of the Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye.  Joining Carmen on the show and providing translation will be Oba Oriate Ernesto Pichardo, Lukumi Elder and president of the Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye. KDCL Media on FB The H20 Network on FB CLBA on FB

Sacrificial Ceremonies of Santeria is the first book to explore the history, methods, and thinking behind sacrifice in the growing Santería faith. Explains the animal sacrifice ceremony in step-by-step detail. Shares the ancient African sacred stories that reveal the well-thought-out [...]

Is ATR: Lukumi, Ifa, Haitian Voodoo and other Mystery System ONLY for the few with money? Are these classist societies? The POWER Lunch: Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Secrets and Recipes with The Divine Prince, House of the Divine Prince and Hoodoo Central on BTR.  347/215-8967 at www.BlogTalkRadio.com/The-Divine-Prince Hoodoo New Orleans Voodoo Secrets and Recipes on the POWER Lunch at Noon US CST LIVE from New Orleans, Louisiana My LIVE Listen-In and Call-In Number is area code 347/215-8967 and My LIVE chat room and show page direct link and location is: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/The-Divine-Prince/      http://www.HouseoftheDivinePrince.com http://www.keen.com/Divine+Prince http://www.liveperson.com/divine-prince http://www.destle.com/The-Divine-Prince http://www.facebook.com/TheDivinePrince “Spiritual Knowledge and Power lies in its efficacy and its ability to produce and manifest powerful, reliable tangible lasting manifestation and results, right here and now in this moment in time/space; all else is vanity, all else is ego, all else is illusionary.” ~The Divine Prince          

Pagans Tonight talks about media stories on Ifa , Santeria and Lukumi. Serveral stories have been released recently with both true and false elements.

Pagans Tonight will soon be America's leading nightly Pagan show bringing you news, information, entertainment and ideas from across the world, physically, virtually, and spiritually. The show is a ensemble show led by Ed Hubbard & Traci Wood, with regulars Don Lewis, and Herr Wolf. We will be a Call-in Show.