Meikles & Dimes

Bob Goodson was the first employee at Yelp, founder of social media analytics company Quid, co-inventor of the Like button, and co-author of the new book Like: The Button That Changed the World. On Oct 1, 2025, Bob spent a day with our MBA students at the University of Kansas, and he shared so much great content that I asked him if we could put together some of the highlights as a podcast, which I've now put together in three chapters: First is Careers, second is Building Companies, and third is AI and Social Media. As a reminder, any views and perspectives expressed on the podcast are solely those of the individual, and not those of the organizations they represent. Hope you enjoy the episode. - [Transcript] Nate:  My name is Nate Meikle. You're listening to Meikles and Dimes, where every episode is dedicated to the simple, practical, and under-appreciated. Bob Goodson was the first employee at Yelp, founder of social media analytics company Quid, co-inventor of the like button, and co-author of the new book Like: The Button That Changed the World. On Oct 1, 2025, Bob spent a day with our MBA students at the University of Kansas, and he shared so much great content that I asked him if we could put together some of the highlights as a podcast, which I've now put together in three chapters: First is Careers, second is Building Companies, and third is AI and Social Media. As a reminder, any views and perspectives expressed on the podcast are solely those of the individual and not those of the organizations they represent. Hope you enjoy the episode. Let's jump into Chapter 1 on Careers. For the first question, a student asked Bob who he has become and how his experiences have shaped him as a person and leader.   Bob:  Oh, thanks, Darrell. That's a thoughtful question. It's thoughtful because it's often not asked, and it's generally not discussed. But I will say, and hopefully you'll feel like this about your work if you don't already, that you will over time, which is I'm 45 now, so I have some sort of vantage point to look back over. Like, I mean, I started working when I was about 9 or 10 years old, so I have been working for money for about 35 years. So I'm like a bit further into my career than perhaps I look. I've been starting companies and things since I was about 10. So, in terms of like my professional career, which I guess started, you know, just over 20 years ago, 20 years into that kind of work, the thing I'm most grateful for is what it's allowed me to learn and how it's evolved me as a person. And I'm also most grateful on the business front for how the businesses that I've helped create and the projects and client deployments and whatever have helped evolve the people that have worked on them. Like I genuinely feel that is the most lasting thing that anything in business does is evolve people. It's so gratifying when you have a team member that joins and three years later you see them, just their confidence has developed or their personality has developed in some way. And it's the test of the work that has evolved them as people. I mean, I actually just on Monday night, I caught up for the first time in 10 years with an intern we had 10 years ago called Max Hofer. You can look him up. He was an intern at Quid. He was from Europe, was studying in London, came to do an internship with us in San Francisco for the summer. And, he was probably like 18, 19 years old. And a few weeks ago, he launched his AI company, Parsewise, with funding from Y Combinator. And, he cites his experience at Quid as being fundamental in choosing his career path, in choosing what field he worked in and so on. So that was, yeah, that was, when you see these things happening, right, 10 years on, we caught up at an event we did in London on Monday. And it's just it's really rewarding. So I suppose, yeah, like I suppose it's it's brought me a lot of perspective, brought me a lot of inner peace, actually, you know, the and and when you're when I was in the thick of it at times, I had no sense of that whatsoever. Right. Like in tough years. And there were some - there have been some very tough years in my working career that you don't feel like it's developing you in any way. It just feels brutal. I liken starting a company, sometimes it's like someone's put you in a room with a massive monster and the monster pins you down and just bats you across the face, right, for like a while. And you're like just trying to get away from the monster and you're like, finally you get the monster off your back and then like the monster's just on you again. And it just, it's just like you get a little bit of space and freedom and then the monster's back and it's just like pummeling you. And it's just honestly some years, like for those of you, some of you are running companies now, right? And starting your own companies as well. And I suppose it's not just starting companies. There are just phases in your career and work where it's like you look back and you're like, man, that year was just like, that was brutal. You just get up and fight every day, and you just get knocked down every day. So I think, I don't wish that on anybody, but it does build resilience that then transfers into other aspects of your life.    Nate:  Next, a student made a reference to the first podcast episode I recorded with Bob and asked him if he felt like he was still working on the most important problem in his field.    Bob:  Yeah, thank you. Thanks for listening to the podcast, as this gives us… thanks for the chance to plug the podcast. So the way I met Nate is that he interviewed me for his podcast. And for those of you who haven't listened to it, it's a 30 minute interview. And he asked this question about what advice would you share with others? And we honed in on this question of like, what is the most important problem in your field? And are you working on it? Which I love as a guide to like choosing what to work on. And so we had a great conversation. I enjoyed it so much and really enjoyed meeting Nate. So we sort of said, hey, let's do more fun stuff together in the future. So that's what brought us to this conversation. And thanks to Nate for, you know, bringing us all together today. I'm always working on what I think is the most important problem in front of me. And I always will be. I can't help it. I don't have to think about it. I just can't think about anything else. So yes, I do feel like right now I'm working on the most important problem in my field. And I feel like I've been doing that for about 20 years. And it's not for everybody, I suppose. But I just think, like, let's talk about that idea a little bit. And then I'll say what I think is the most important problem in my field that I'm working on. Like, just to translate it for each of you. Systems are always evolving. The systems we live in are evolving. We all know that. People talk about the pace of change and like life's changing, technology's changing and so on. Well, it is, right? Like humans developed agriculture 5,000 years ago. That wasn't very long ago. Agriculture, right? Just the idea that you could grow crops in one area and live in that area without walking around, without moving around settlements and different living in different places. And that concept is only 5,000 years old, right? I mean, people debate exactly how old, like 7, 8,000. But anyway, it's not that long ago, considering Homo sapiens have been walking around for in one form or another for several hundred thousand years and humans in general for a couple million years. So 5,000 years is not long. Look at what's happened in 5,000 years, right? Like houses, the first settlements where you would actually just live at sleep in the same place every night is only 5,000 years old. And now we've got on a - you can access all the world's knowledge - on your phone for free through ChatGPT and ask it sophisticated questions and all right answers. Or you can get on a plane and fly all over the world. You have, you know, sophisticated digital currency systems. We have sophisticated laws. And like, we've got to be aware, I think, that we are living in a time of great change. And that has been true for 5,000 years, right? That's not new. So I think about this concept of the forefront. I imagine, human development is, you can just simply imagine it like a sphere or balloon that someone's like blowing up, right? And so every time they breathe into it, like something shifts and it just gets bigger. And so there's stuff happening on the forefront where it's occupying more space, different space, right? There's stuff in the middle that's like a bit more stable and a bit more, less prone to rapid change, right? The education system, some parts of the healthcare system, like certain professions, certain things that are like a bit more stable, but there's stuff happening all the time on the periphery, right? Like on the boundary. And that stuff is affecting every field in one way or another. And I just think if you get a chance to work on that stuff, that's a really interesting place to live and a really interesting place to work. And I feel like you can make a contribution to that, right, if you put yourself on the edge. And it's true for every field. So whatever field you're in, we had people here today, you know, in everything from, yeah, like the military to fitness to, you know, your product, product design and management and, you know, lots of different, you know, people, different backgrounds. But if you ask yourself, what is the most important thing happening in my area of work today, and then try to find some way to work on it, then I think that sort of is a nice sort of North Star and keeps things interesting. Because the sort of breakthroughs and discoveries and important contributions are actually not complicated once you put yourself in that position. They're obvious once you put yourself in that position, right? It's just that there aren't many people there hanging out in that place. If you're one of them, if you put yourself there, not everyone's there, suddenly you're kind of in a room where like lots of cool stuff can happen, but there aren't many people around to compete with you. So you're more likely to find those breakthroughs, whether it's for your company or for, you know, the people you work with or, you know, maybe it's inventions and, but it just, anyway, so I really like doing that. And in my space right now, I call it the concept of being the bridge. And this could apply to all of you too. It's a simple idea that the world's value, right, is locked up in companies, essentially. Companies create value. We can debate all the other vehicles that do it, but basically most of the world's value is tied up in companies and their processes. And that's been true for a long time. There's a new ball of power in the world, which is been created by large language models. And I think of that just like a new ball of power. So you've got a ball of value and a ball of power. And the funny thing about this new ball of power is this actually has no value. That's a funny thing to say, right? The large language models have no value. They don't. They don't have any value and they don't create value. Think about it. It's just a massive bag of words. That has no value, right? I can send you a poem now in the chat. Does that have any value? You might like it, you might not, but it's just a set of words, right? So you've got this massive bag of words that with like a trillion connections, no value whatsoever. That is different from previous tech trends like e-commerce, for example, which had inherent value because it was a new way to reach consumers. So some tech trends do have inherent value because they're new processes, but large language models don't. They're just a new technology. They're very powerful. So I call it a ball of power. but they don't have any value. So why is there a multi-trillion dollar opportunity in front of all of us right now in terms of value creation? It's being the bridge. It's how to make use of this ball of power to improve businesses. And businesses only have two ways you improve them. You save money or you grow revenue. That's it. So being the bridge, like taking this new ball of power and finding ways to save money, be more efficient, taking this new ball of power and finding ways to access new consumers, create new offerings and so on, right? Solve new problems. That is where all the value is. So while you may think that the new value, this multi-trillion dollar opportunity with AI is really for the people that work on the AI companies, sure, there's a lot of, you know, there's some money to be made there. And if you can go work for OpenAI, you probably should. Everyone should be knocking the door down. Everyone should be applying for positions because it's the most important company, you know, in our generation. But if you're not in OpenAI or Meta or Microsoft or whoever, you know, three or four companies in the US that are doing this, for everybody else, it's about being the bridge, finding ways that in your organizations, you can unlock the power of AI by bringing it into the organizations and finding ways to either save money or grow the business. And that's fascinating to me because anybody can be the bridge. You don't have to be good with large language models. You have to understand business processes and you have to be creative and willing to even think like this. And suddenly you can be on the forefront of like creating massive value at your companies because you were the, you know, you're the one that brings brings in the new tools. And I think that skill set, there are certain skills involved in being the bridge, but that skill set of being the bridge is going to be so valuable in the next 5 to 10 years. So I encourage people, and that's what I'm doing. Like, I see my role - I serve clients at Quid. I love working with clients. You know, I'm not someone that really like thrives for management and like day-to-day operations and administration of a business. I learned that about myself. And so I just spend my time serving clients. I have done for several years now. And I love just meeting clients and figuring out how they can use Quid's AI, Quid's data, and any other form of AI that we want to bring to the table to improve their businesses. And that's just what I do with my time full-time. And I'll probably be doing that for at least the next 5 or 10 years. I think the outlook for that area of work is really huge.    Nate:  Building on the podcast episode where Bob talked about working on the most important problem in his field, I asked if he could give us some more details on how he took that advice and ended up at Yelp.    Bob:  So I was in grad school in the UK studying, well, I was actually on a program for medieval literature and philosophy, but looking into like language theory. So it was not the most commercial course that one could be doing. But I was a hobbyist programmer, played around with the web when it first came up and was making, you know, various new types of websites for students. while in my free time. I didn't think of that as commercial at all. I didn't see any commercial potential in that. But I did meet the founders of PayPal that way, who would come to give a talk. And I guess they saw the potential in me as a product manager. You know, there's lots of new apps they wanted to build. This is in 2003. And so they invited me to the US to work for them. And I joined the incubator when there were just five people in it. Max Levchin was one of them, the PayPal co-founder. Yelp, Jeremy Stoppelman and Russel Simmons were in those first five people. They turned out to be the Yelp co-founders. And Yelp came out of the incubator. So we were actually prototyping 4 companies each in a different industry. There was a chat application that we called Chatango that was five years before Twitter or something, but it was a way of helping people to chat online more easily. There were, which is still around today, but didn't make it as a hit. There was an ad network called AdRoll, which ended up getting renamed and is still around today. That wasn't a huge hit, but it's still around. Then there was Slide, which is photo sharing application, photo and video sharing, which was Max's company. That was acquired by Google. And that did reasonably well. I think it was acquired for about $150 million. And then there was Yelp, which you'll probably know if you're in the US and went public on the New York Stock Exchange and now has a billion dollars in revenue. So those are the four things that we were trying to prototype, each very different, as you can see. But I suppose that's the like tactical story, right? Like the steps that took me there. But there was an idea that took me there that started this journey of working on the most, the most important problems that are happening in the time. So if I rewind, when I was studying medieval literature, I got to the point where I was studying the invention of the print press. And I'd been studying manuscript culture and seeing what happened when the print press was invented and how it changed education, politics, society. You know, when you took this technology that made it cheaper to print, to make books, books were so expensive in the Middle Ages. They were the domain of only the wealthiest people. And only 5% of people could read before the print process was invented, right? So 95% of people couldn't read anything or write anything. And that was because the books themselves were just so expensive, they had to be handwritten, right? And so when the print press made the cost of a book drop dramatically, the literacy rates in Europe shot up and it completely transformed society. So I was studying that period and at the same time, like dabbling with websites in the early internet and sort of going, oh, like there was this moment where I was like, the web is our equivalent of the print press. And it's happening right now. I'm talking like maybe 2002, or so when I had this realization. It's happening right now. It's going to change everything during our lifetimes. And I just had a fork in my life where it's like I could be a professor in medieval history, which was the path I was on professionally. I had a scholarship. There were only 5 scholarships in my year, in the whole UK. I was on a scholarship track to be a professor and study things like the emergence of the print press, or I could contribute to the print press of our era, which is the internet, and find some way to contribute, some way, right? It didn't matter to me if it was big or small, it was irrelevant. It was just be in the mix with people that are pushing the boundaries. Whatever I did, I'd take the most junior role available, no problem, but like just be in the mix with the people that are doing that. So yeah, that was the decision, right? Like, and that's what led me down to sort of leave my course, leave my scholarship. And, my salary was $40,000 when I moved to the US. All right. And that's pretty much all I earned for a while. I'd spent everything I had starting a group called Oxford Entrepreneurs. So I had absolutely no money. The last few months actually living in Oxford, I had one meal a day because I didn't have enough money to buy three meals a day. And then I packed up my stuff in a suitcase - one bag - wasn't even a suitcase, it was a rucksack and moved to the US and, you know, and landed there basically on a student visa and friends and family was just thought I was, you know, not making a good decision, right? Like, I'm not earning much money. It's with a bunch of people in a like a dorm room style incubator, right? Where the tables and chairs we pulled off the street because we didn't want to spend money on tables and chairs. And where I get to work seven days a week, 12 hours a day. And I've just walked away from a scholarship and a PhD track at Oxford to go into that. And it didn't look like a good decision. But to me, the chance to work on the forefront of what's happening in our era is just too important and too interesting to not make those decisions. So I've done that a number of times, even when it's gone against commercial interest or career interest. I haven't made the best career decisions, you know, not from a commercial standpoint, but from a like getting to work on the new stuff. Like that's what I've prioritized.    Nate:  Next, I asked Bob about his first meeting with the PayPal founders and how he made an impression on them.    Bob:  Good question, because I think... So I have a high level thought on that, like a rubric to use. And then I have the details. I'll start with the details. So I had started the entrepreneurship club at Oxford. And believe it or not, in 800 years of the University's history, there was no entrepreneurship club. And they know that because when you want to start a new society, you go to university and they go through the archive, which is kept underground in the library, and someone goes down to the library archives and they go through all these pages for 800 years and look for the society that's called that. And if there is one, they pull it out and then they have the charter and you have to continue the charter. Even if it was started 300 years ago, they pull out the charter and they're like, no, you have to modify that one. You can't start with a new charter. So anyway, it's because it's technically a part of the university, right? So they have a way of administrating it. So they went through the records and were like, there's never been a club for entrepreneurs at the university. So we started the first, I was one of the co-founders of this club. And, again, there's absolutely no pay. It was just a charity as part of the university. But I love the idea of getting students who were scientists together with students that were business minded, and kind of bringing technical and creative people together. That was the theme of the club. So we'd host drinks, events and talks and all sorts. And I love building communities, at least at that stage of my life. I loved building communities. I'd been doing it. I started several charities and clubs, you know, throughout my life. So it came quite naturally to me. But what I didn't, I mean, I kind of thought this could happen, but it really changed my life as it put me at the center of this super interesting community that we've built. And I think that when you're in a university environment, like starting clubs, running clubs, even if they're small, like, we, I ran another club that we called BEAR. It was an acronym. And it was just a weekly meetup in a pub where we talked about politics and society and stuff. And like, it didn't go anywhere. It fizzled out after a year or two, but it was really like an interesting thing to work on. So I think when you're in a university environment, even if you guys are virtual, finding ways to get together, it's so powerful. It's like, it's who you're meeting in courses like this that is so powerful. So I put myself in the middle of this community, and I was running it, I was president of it. So when these people came to speak at the business school, I was asked to bring the students along, and I was given 200 slots in the lecture theatre. So I filled them, I got 200 students along. We had 3,000 members, by the way, after like 2 years running this club. It became the biggest club at the university, and the biggest entrepreneurship student community in Europe. It got written up in The Economist actually as like, because it was so popular. But yeah, it meant that I was in the middle of it. And when the business school said, you can come to the dinner with the speakers afterwards, that was my ticket to sit down next to the founder of PayPal, you know. And so, then I sat down at dinner with him, and I had my portfolio with me, which back then I used to carry around in a little folder, like a black paper folder. And every project I'd worked on, every, because I used to do graphic design for money as a student. So I had my graphic design projects. I had my yoga publishing business and projects in there. I had printouts about the websites I'd created. So when I sat down next to him, and he's like, what do you work on? I just put this thing on the table over dinner and was like, he picked it up and he started going through it. And he was like, what's this? What's this? And I think just having my projects readily available allowed him to sort of get interested in what I was working on. Nowadays, you can have a website, right? Like I didn't have a website for a long time. Now I have one. It's at bobgoodson.com where I put my projects on there. You can check it out if you like. But I think I've always had a portfolio in one way or another. And I think carrying around the stuff that you've done in an interactive way is a really good way to connect with people. But one more thing I'll say on this concept, because it connects more broadly to like life in general, is that I think that I have this theory that in your lifetime, you get around five opportunities put in front of you that you didn't yet fully deserve, right? Someone believes in you, someone opens a door, someone's like, hey, Nate, how about you do this? Or like, we think you might be capable of this. And it doesn't happen very often, but those moments do happen. And when they happen, a massive differentiator for your life is do you notice that it's happening and do you grab it with both hands? And in that moment, do everything you can to make it work, right? Like they don't come along very often. And to me, those moments have been so precious. I knew I wouldn't get many of them. And so every time they happened, I've just been all in. I don't care what's going on in my life at that time. When the door opens, I drop everything, and I do everything I can to make it work. And you're stretched in those situations. So it's not easy, right? Like someone's given you an opportunity to do something you're not ready for, essentially. So you're literally not ready for it. Like you're not good enough, you don't know enough, you don't have the knowledge, you don't have the skills. So you only have to do the job, but you have to cultivate your own skills and develop your skills. And that's a lot of work. You know, when I landed in, I mean, working for Max was one of those opportunities where I did not, I'd not done enough to earn that opportunity when I got that opportunity. I landed with five people who had all done PayPal. They were all like incredible experts in their fields, right? Like Russ Simmons, the Yelp co-founder, had been the chief architect of PayPal. He architected PayPal, right? Like I was with very skilled technical people. I was the only Brit. They were all Americans. So I stood out culturally. Most of them couldn't understand what I was saying when I arrived. I've since changed how I speak. So you can understand me, the Americans in the room. But I just mumbled. I wasn't very articulate. So it was really hard to get my ideas across. And I had programmed as a hobbyist, but I didn't know enough to be able to program production code alongside people that had worked at PayPal. I mean, their security levels and their accuracy and everything was just off the, I was in another league, right? So there I was, I felt totally out of my depth, and I had to fight to stay in that job for a year. Like I fought every day for a year to like not get kicked out of that job and essentially out of the country. Because without their sponsorship, I couldn't have stayed in the country. I was on a student visa with them, right? And I worked seven days a week for 365 days in a row. I basically almost lived in the office. I got an apartment a few blocks from the office and I had to. No one else was working those kind of hours, but I had to do the job, and I had to learn 3 new programming languages and all this technical stuff, how to write specs, how to write product specs like I had to research the history of various websites in parts of the internet. So I'm just, I guess I'm just giving some color to like when these doors open in your career and in your life, sometimes they're relationship doors that open, right? You meet somebody who's going to change your life, and it's like, are you going to fight to make that work? And, you know, like, so not all, it's not always career events, but when they happen, I think like trusting your instinct that this is one of those moments and knowing this is one of the, you can't do this throughout your whole life. You burn out and you die young. Like you're just not sustainable. But when they happen, are you going to put the burners on and be like, I'm in. And sometimes it only takes a few weeks. Like the most it's ever taken for me is a year to walk through a door. But like, anyway, like just saying that in case anyone here has one of these moments and like maybe this will resonate with one of you, and you'll be like, that's one of the moments I need to walk through the door.    Nate:  That concludes chapter one. In chapter 2, Bob talks about building companies. First, I asked Bob if he gained much leadership experience at Yelp.    Bob:  I gained some. I suppose my first year or two in the US was in a technical role. So I didn't have anyone reporting to me. I was just working on the user interface and front end stuff. So really no leadership there. But then, there was a day when we still had five people. Jeremy started to go pitch investors for our second round because we had really good traffic growth, right? In San Francisco, we had really nice charts showing traffic growth. We'd started to get traction in New York and started to get traction in LA. So we've had the start of a nice story, right? Like this works in other cities. We've got a model we can get traffic. And Jeremy went to his first VC pitch for the second round. And the VC said, you need to show that you can monetize the traffic before you raise this round. The growth story is fine, but you also need to say, we've signed 3 customers and they're paying this much, right, monthly. So Jeremy came back from that pitch, and I remember very clearly, he sat down, kind of slumped in his chair and he's like, oh man, we're going to have to do some sales before we can raise this next round. Like we need someone on the team to go close a few new clients. And it's so funny because it's like, me and four people and everyone went like this and faced me at the same time. And I was like, why are you looking at me? Like, I'm not, I didn't know how to start selling to local businesses. And they're like, they all looked at each other and went, no, we think you're probably the best for this, Bob. And they were all engineers, like all four of them were like, background in engineering. Even the CEO was VP engineering at PayPal before he did Yelp. So basically, we were all geeks. And for some reason, they thought I would be the best choice to sell to businesses. And I didn't really have a choice in it, honestly. I didn't want to do it. They were just like, you're like, that's what needs to happen next. And you're the most suitable candidate for it. So I I just started picking up the phone and calling dentists, chiropractors, restaurants. We didn't know if Yelp would resonate with bars or restaurants or healthcare. We thought healthcare was going to be big, which is reasonably big for Yelp now, but it's not the focus. But anyway, I just started calling these random businesses with great reviews. I just started with the best reviewed businesses. And the funny thing is some of those people, my first ever calls are still friends today, right? Like my chiropractor that I called is the second person I ever called and he signed up, ended up being my chiropractor for like 15 years living in San Francisco. And now we're still in touch, and we're great friends. So it's funny, like I dreaded those first calls, but they actually turned out to be really interesting people that I met. But yeah, we didn't have a model. We didn't know what to charge for. So we started out charging for calls. We changed the business's phone number. So if you're, you had a 415 number and you're a chiropractor on Yelp, we would change your number to like a number that Yelp owned, but it went straight through to their phone. So it was a transfer, but it meant our system could track that they got the call through Yelp, right? Yeah. And then we tracked the duration of the call. We couldn't hear the call, but we tracked the duration of the call. And then we could report back to them at the end of the month. You got 10 calls from Yelp this month and we're going to charge you $50 a call or whatever. So I sold that to 5 or 10 customers and people hated it. They hated that model because they're like, they'd get a call, it'd be like a wrong number or they just wanted to ask, they're already a current customer and they're asking about parking or something, right? So then we'd get back to and be like, you got a call and we charged you 50 bucks. So like, no, I can't pay you for that. Like, that was one of my current customers. So now the reality is they were getting loads of advertising and that was really driving the growth for their business, but they didn't want to pay for the call. So then I was like, that's not working. We have to do something else. Then we paid pay for click, which was we put ads on your page and when someone clicks it, they see you. And then people hated that too, because they're like, my mum just told me she's been like clicking on the link, right? Because she's like looking at my business. And my mum probably just cost me 5 bucks because she said she clicked it 10 times. And like, can you take that off my bill? So people hated the clicks. And then one day we just brought in a head of operations, Geoff Donaker. And by this point, by the way, I had like 2 salespeople working for me that I'd hired. And so it was me and two other people. We were calling these companies, signing these contracts. And one day I just had this epiphany. I was like, we should just pay for the ads that are viewed, not the ads that are clicked. In other words, pay for impressions to the ads. So if I tell you, I've put your ad in front of 500 people when they were looking for sushi this month, right? That you don't mind paying for because there's no action involved, but you're like, whoa, it's a big number. You put me in front of 500 people. I'll pay you 200 bucks for that. No problem. Essentially impression-based advertising. And I went to our COO and I was like, I think we should try this. He was like, if you want to give it a go. And I wrote up a contract and started selling it that day. And that is that format, that model now has a billion dollars revenue running through Yelp. So basically they took that model, like I switched it to impression-based advertising. And that was what was right for local. And our metrics were amazing. We're actually able to charge a lot more than we could in the previous two models. And I built out the sales team to about 20 people. Through that process, I got hooked, basically. Like I realized I love selling during that role. I would never have walked into sales, I think, unless everyone had gone, you have to do it. And I dreaded it, but I got really hooked on it. I love the adrenaline of it. I love hunting down these deals and I love like what you can learn from customers when you're selling. You can learn what they need and you can evolve your business model. So I love that flywheel and that's kind of what I've been doing ever since. But I built out a team of 20 people, so I got to learn management, essentially by just doing it at Yelp and building out that team.    Nate:  Next, I asked Bob how he developed his theory of leadership.    Bob:  I actually developed it really early on. You know, I mentioned earlier I'd been starting things since I was about 10 years old. And what's fascinated me between the age of like 10 and maybe, you know, my early 20s, I love the idea of creating stuff with people where no one gets paid. And here's why. These are charities and nonprofits and stuff, right? But I realized really early, if I can lead and motivate in a way where people want to contribute, even though they're not getting paid, and we can create stuff together, if I can learn that aspect, like management in that sense, then if I'm one day paying people, I'm going to get like, I'm going to, we're all going to be so much more effective, essentially, right? Like the organization is going to be so much more effective. And that is a concept I still work with today. Yes, we pay everyone quite well at Quid who works at Quid, right? Like we pay at or above market rate. But I never think about that. I never, ever ask for anything or work with people in a way that I feel they need to do it because that's their job ever. I just erased that from my mindset. I've never had that in my mindset. I always work with people with like, with gratitude and and in a way where I'm like, well, I'll try and make it fun and like help them see the meaning in the work, right? Like help them understand why it's an exciting thing to work on or a, why it's right for them, how it connects to their goals and their interests and why it's, you know, fun to contribute, whether it's to a client or to an area of technology or whatever we're working on. It's like, so yeah, I haven't really, I haven't, I mean, you guys might have read books on this, but I haven't really seen that idea articulated in quite the way that I think about it. And because I didn't read it in a book, I just kind of like stumbled across it as a kid. But that's, but I learned because I practiced it for 10 years before I even ended up in the US, when I started managing teams at Yelp, I found that I was very effective as a manager and a leader because I didn't take for granted that, you know, people had to do it because it was their job. I thought of ways to make the environment fun and make the connections between the different team members fun and teach them things and have there be like a culture of success and winning and sharing in the results of the wins together. And I suppose this did play out a little bit financially in my career because, although we pay people well at Yelp, we're kind of a somewhat mature business now. But in the early days of Yelp and in the early days of Quid, I never competed on pay. You know, when you're starting a company, it's a really bad idea to try and compete on pay. You have to, I went into every hiring conversation all the way through my early days at Yelp, as well as through the early days at Quid, like probably the first nearly 10 years at Quid. And every time I interviewed people, I would say early on, this isn't going to be where you earn the most money. I'm not going to be able to pay you market rate. You're going to earn less here than you could elsewhere. However, this is what I can offer you, right? Like whether then I make a culture that's about like helping learning. Like we always had a book like quota at Quid. If you want to buy books to read in your free time, I don't care what the title is, we'll give you money to buy books. And the reality is a book's like 10 bucks or 20 bucks, right? No one spends much on books, but that was one of the perks. I put together these perks so that we were paying often like half of what you could get in the market for the same role, but you're printing like reasons to be there that aren't about the money. Now, it doesn't work for everybody, you know, that's as in every company doesn't, but that's just what played out. And that's really important in the early days. You've got to be so efficient. And then once you start bringing in the money, then you can start moving up your rates and obviously pay people market rate. But early on, you've got to find ways to be really, really, really efficient and really lean. And you can't pay people market rate in the early days. I mean, people kind of expect that going into early stage companies, but I was particularly aggressive on that front. But that was just because I suppose it was in my DNA that like, I will try and give you other reasons to work here, but it's not going to be, it's not going to be for the money.    Nate:  Next, I asked Bob how he got from Yelp to Quid and how he knew it was time to launch his own company.    Bob:  Yeah, like looking back, if I'd made sort of the smart decision from a financial standpoint and from a, you know, career standpoint, I suppose you'd say, I would have just stayed put. if you're in a rocket ship and it's growing and you've got a senior role and you get to, you've got, you've earned the license to work on whatever you want. Like Yelp wanted me to move to Phoenix and create their first remote sales team. They wanted, I was running customer success at the time and I'd set up all those systems. Like there was so much to do. Yelp was only like three or four years old at the time, and it was clearly a rocket ship. And you know, I could have learned a lot more like from Yelp in that, like I could have seen it all the way through to IPO and, setting up remote teams and hiring hundreds of people, thousands of people eventually. So I, but I made the choice to leave relatively early and start my own thing. Just coming back to this idea we talked about in the session earlier today, I I always want to work on the forefront of whatever's going on, like the most important thing happening in our time. And I felt I knew what was next. I could kind of see what was next, which was applying AI to analyze the world's text, which was clear to me by about 2008, like that was going to be as big as the internet. That's kind of how I felt about it. And I told people that, and I put that in articles, and I put it in talks that are online that you can go watch. You know, there's one on my website from 10 years ago where I'd already been in the space for five or six years. You can go watch it and see what I was saying in 2015. So fortunately, I documented this because it sounds a bit, you know, unbelievable given what's just happened with large language models and open AI. But it was clear to me where things were going around 2008. And I just wanted to work on what was next, basically. I wanted to apply neural networks and natural language processing to massive text sets like all the world's media, all the world's social media. And yeah, I suppose whenever I've seen what's going to happen next, like with social network, going to Yelp, like seeing what was going to happen with social networking, going to building Yelp, and then seeing this observation about AI and going and doing Quid, it's not, it doesn't feel like a choice to me. It's felt like, well, just what I have to do. And regardless of whether that's going to be more work, harder work, less money, et cetera, it's just how I'm wired, I guess. And I'm kind of, I see it now. Like I see what's next now. And I'll probably just keep doing this. But I was really too early or very, very early, as you can probably see, to be trying to do that at like 2008, 2009, seven or eight years before OpenAI was founded, I was just banging my head against the wall for nearly a decade with no one that would listen. So even the best companies in the world and the biggest investors in the world, again, I won't name them, But it was so hard to raise money. It was so hard to get anyone to watch it that, after a time, I actually started to think I was wrong. Like after doing it for like 10 years and it hadn't taken off, I just started to think like, I was so wrong. I spent a year or two before ChatGPT took off. I'd got to a point where I'd spent like a year or two just thinking, how could my instinct be so wrong about what was going to play out here? How could we not have unlocked the world's written information at this point? And I started to think maybe it'll never happen, you know, and like I was simply wrong, which of course you could be wrong on these things. And then, you know, ChatGPT and OpenAI like totally blew up, and it's been bigger than even I imagined. And I couldn't have told you exactly which technical breakthrough was going to result in it. Like no one knew that large language models were going to be the unlock. But I played with everything available to try and unlock that value. And as soon as large language models became promising in 2016, we were on it, like literally the month that the Google BERT paper came out, because we were like knocking on that door for many years beforehand. And we were one of the teams that were like, trying to unlock that value. That's why many of the early Quid people are very senior at OpenAI and went on to take what they learned from Quid and then apply it in an OpenAI environment, which I'm very proud of. I'm very proud of those people, and it's amazing to see what they've done.    Nate:  That concludes Chapter 2. In Chapter 3, we discuss AI and social media. The first question was about anxiety and AI.    Bob:  Maybe I'll just focus on the anxiety and the issues first of all. A lot's been said on it. I suppose what would be my headlines? I think that one big area of concern is how it changes the job market. And I think the practical thing on that is if you can learn to be the bridge, then you're putting yourself in a really valuable position, right? Because if you can bridge this technology into businesses in a way that makes change and improvements, then you are moving yourself to a skill set that's going to continue to be really valuable. So that's just a practical matter. One of the executives I work with in a major US company likes to say will doctors become redundant because of AI? And he says, no, doctors won't be redundant, but doctors that don't use AI will be redundant. And that's kind of where we are, right? It's like, we're still going to need a person, but if you refuse, if you're not using it, you're going to fall behind and like that is going to put you at risk. So I think there is some truth to that little kind of illustrative story. There will be massive numbers of jobs that are no longer necessary. And the history of technology is full of these examples. Coming back to like 5,000 years ago, think of all the times that people invented stuff that made the prior roles redundant, right? In London, before electricity was discovered and harnessed, one of the biggest areas of employment was for the people that walked the streets at night, lighting the candles and gas lights that lit London. That was a huge breakthrough, right? You could put fire in the street, you put gas in the street and you lit London. Without that, you couldn't go out at night in London and like it would have been an absolute nightmare. The city wouldn't be what it is. But that meant there were like thousands of people whose job it was to light those candles and then go round in the morning when the sun came up and blow them out. So when the light bulb was invented, can you imagine the uproar in London where all these jobs were going to be lost, thousands of jobs were going to be lost. by people that no longer are needed to put out these lights. There were riots, right? There was massive social upheaval. The light bulb threatened and wiped out those jobs. How many people in London now work lighting gas lamps and lighting candles to light the streets, right? Nobody. That was unthinkable. How could you possibly take away those jobs? You know, people actually smashed these light bulbs when the first electric light bulbs were put into streets. People just went and smashed them because they're like, we are not going to let this technology take our jobs. And I can give you 20 more examples like that throughout history, right? Like you could probably think of loads yourselves. Even the motor car, you know, so many people were employed to look after horses, right? Think of all the people that were employed in major cities around the world, looking after horses and caring for them and building the carts and everything. And suddenly you don't need horses anymore. Like that wiped out an entire industry. But what did it do? It created the automobile industry, which has been employing massive numbers of people ever since. And the same is true for, you know, like what have light bulbs done for the quality of our lives? You know, we don't look at them now and think that's an evil technology that wiped out loads of jobs. We go, thank goodness we've got light bulbs. So the nature of technology is that it wipes out roles, and it creates roles. And I just don't see AI being any different. Humans have no limit to like, seem to have no limit to the comfort they want to live with and the things that we want in our lives. And those things are still really expensive and we don't, we're nowhere near satisfied. So like, we're going to keep driving forward. We're going to go, oh, now we can do that. Great. I can use AI, I can make movies and I can, you know, I don't know, like there's just loads of stuff that people are going to want to do with AI. Like, I mean, using the internet, how much time do we spend on these damn web forms, just clicking links and buttons and stuff? Is that fun? Do we even want to do that? No. Like we're just wasting hours of our lives every week, like clicking buttons. Like if we have agents, they can do that for us. So we have, I think we're a long way from like an optimal state where work is optional and we can just do the things that humans want to do with their time. And so, but that's the journey that I see us all along, you know. So anyway, that's just my take on AI and employment, both practically, what can you do about it? Be the bridge, embrace it, learn it, jump in. And also just like in a long arc, I'm not saying in the short term, there won't be riots and there won't be lots of people out of work. And I mean, there will be. But when we look back again, like I often think about what time period are we talking about? Right? People often like, well, what will it do to jobs? Next year, like there'll certain categories that will become redundant. But are we thinking about this in a one year period or 100 year period? Like it's worth asking yourself, what timeframe am I talking about? Right? And I always try and come back to the 100 year view at a minimum when talking about technology change. If it's better for humanity in 100 years, then we should probably work on it and make it happen, right? If we didn't do that, we wouldn't have any light bulbs in our house. Still be lighting candles?    Nate:  Next was a question about social media, fragmented attention, and how it drives isolation.    Bob:  Well, it's obviously been very problematic, particularly in the last five or six years. So TikTok gained success in the United States and around the world around five or six years ago with a completely new model for how to put content in front of people. And what powered it? AI. So TikTok is really an AI company. And the first touch point that most of us had with AI was actually through TikTok. It got so good at knowing the network of all possible content and knowing if you watch this, is the next thing we should show you to keep you engaged. And they didn't care if you were friends with someone or not. Your network didn't matter. Think about Facebook. Like for those of you that were using Facebook, maybe say 2010, right? Like 15 years ago. What did social media look like? You had a profile page, you uploaded photos of yourself and photos of your friends, you linked between them. And when you logged into Facebook, you basically just browsing people's profiles and seeing what they got up to at the weekend. That was social media 15 years ago. Now imagine, now think what you do when you're on Instagram and you're swiping, right? Or you go to TikTok and you're swiping. First of all, let's move to videos, which is a lot more compelling, short videos. And most of the content has nothing to do with your friends. So there was a massive evolution in social media that happened five or six years ago, driven by TikTok. And all the other companies had to basically adopt the same approach or they would have fallen too far behind. So it forced Meta to evolve Instagram and Facebook to be more about attention. Like there's always about attention, that's the nature of media. But these like AI powered ways to keep you there, regardless of what they're showing you. And that turned out to be a bit of a nightmare because it unleashed loads of content without any sense of like what's good for the people who are watching it, right? That's not the game they're playing. They're playing attention and then they're not making decisions about what might be good for you or not. So we went through like a real dip, I think, in social media, went through a real dip and we're still kind of in it, right, trying to find ways out of it. So regulation will ultimately be the savior, which it is in any new field of tech. Regulation is necessary to keep tech to have positive impact for the people that it's meant to be serving. And that's taken a long time to successfully put in place for social media, but we are getting there. I mean, Australia just banned social media for everyone under 16. You may have seen that. Happened, I think, earlier this year. France is putting controls around it. The UK is starting to put more controls around it. So, you know, gradually countries are voters are making it a requirement to put regulation around social media use. In terms of just practical things for you all, as you think about your own social media use, I think it's very healthy to think about how long you spend on it and find ways to just make it a little harder to access, right? Like none of us feel good when we spend a lot of time on our screens. None of us feel good when we spend a lot of time on social media. It feels good at the time because it's given us those quick dopamine hits. But then afterwards, we're like, man, I spent an hour, and I just like, I lost an hour down like the Instagram wormhole. And then we don't feel good afterwards. It affects us sleep negatively. And yeah, come to the question that was, posted, can create a sense of isolation or negative feelings of self due to comparison to centrally like models and actors and all these people that are like putting out content, right? Kind of super humans. So I think just finding ways to limit it and asking yourself what's right for you and then just sticking to that. And if that means coming off it for a month or coming off it for a couple of months, then, give that a try. Personally, I don't use it much at all. I'll use it mostly because friends will share like a funny meme or something and you just still want to watch it because it's like it's sent to you by a friend. It's a way of interacting. Like my dad sends me funny stuff from the internet, and I want to watch it because it's a way of connecting with him. But then I set a timer. I like to use this timer. It's like just a little physical device. I know we've all got one on our phones, but I like to have one on my desk. And so if I'm going into something, whether it's like I'm going to do an hour on my inbox, my e-mail inbox, or I'm going to, you know, open up Instagram and just swipe for a bit, I'll just set a timer, you know, and just keep me honest, like, okay, I'm going to give myself 8 minutes. I'm not going to give myself any more time on there. So there's limited it. And then I put all these apps in a folder on the second screen of my phone. So I can't easily access them. I don't even see them because they're on the second screen of my phone in a folder called social. So to access any of the apps, I have to swipe, open the folder, and then open the app. And just moving them to a place where I can't see them has been really helpful. I only put the healthy apps on my front page of my phone.    Nate:  Next was a question about where Bob expects AI to be in 20 years and whether there are new levels to be unlocked.    Bob:  No one knows. Right? Like what happens when you take a large language model from a trillion nodes to like 5 trillion nodes? No one knows. It's, this is where the question comes in around like consciousness, for example. Will it be, will it get to a point where we have to consider this entity conscious? Fiercely debated, not obvious at all. Will it become, it's already smarter than, well, it already knows more than any human on the planet. So in terms of its knowledge access, it knows more. In terms of most capabilities, most, you know, cognitive capabilities, it's already more capable than any single human on the planet. But there are certain aspects of consciousness, well, certain cognitive functions that humans currently are capable of that AI is not currently capable of, but we might expect some of those to be eaten into as these large language models get better. And it might be that these large language models have cognitive capabilities that humans don't have and never could have, right? Like levels of strategic thinking, for example, that we just can't possibly mirror. And that's one of the things that's kind of, you know, a concern to nations and to people is that, you know, we could end up with something on the planet that is a lot smarter than any one of us or even all of us combined. So in general, when something becomes more intelligent, it seeks to dominate everything else. That is a pattern. You can see that throughout all life. Nothing's ever got smarter and not sought to dominate. And so that's concerning, especially because it's trained on everything we've ever said and done. So I don't know why that pattern would be different. So that, you know, that's interesting. And and I think in terms of, so the part of that question, which is whole new areas of capability to be unlocked, really fascinating area to look at is not so much the text now, because everything I've written is already in these models, right? So the only way they can get more information is by the fact that like, loads of social networks are creating more information and so on. It's probably pretty duplicitous at this point. That's why Elon bought Twitter, for example, because he wanted the data in Twitter, and he wants that constant access to that data. But how much smarter can they get when they've already got everything ever written? However, large language models, of course, don't just apply to text. They apply to any information, genetics, photography, film, every form of information can be harnessed by these large language models and are being harnessed. And one area that's super interesting is robotics. So the robot is going to be as nimble and as capable as the training data that goes into it. And there isn't much robotic training data yet. But companies are now collecting robotic training data. So in the coming years, robots are going to get way more capable, thanks to large language models, but only as this data gets collected. So in other words, like language is kind of reaching its limits in terms of new capabilities, but think of all the other sensor types that could feed into large language models and you can start to see all kinds of future capabilities, which is why everyone suddenly got so interested in personal transportation vehicles and personal robotics, which is why like Tesla share price is up for example, right? Because Elon's committed now to kind of moving more into robotics with Tesla as a company. And there are going to be loads of amazing robotics companies that come out over the next like 10 or 20 years.    Nate:  And that brings us to the end of this episode with Bob Goodson. Like I mentioned in the intro, there were so many great nuggets from Bob. Such great insight on managing our careers, building companies, and the evolving impact of AI and social media. In summary, try to be at the intersection of new power and real problems. Seek to inspire rather than just transact, and be thoughtful about how to use social media and AI. All simple ideas, please, take them seriously.   

Rebecca Hinds is a leading expert on organizational behavior and the future of work. She earned her BS, MS, and PhD from Stanford University, and founded the Work Innovation Lab at Asana as well as the Work AI Institute at Glean, first-of-their-kind corporate think tanks dedicated to cutting-edge research on the future of work. Her research is consistently featured in top-tier publications and has appeared in Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Fast Company, Wired, TIME, CNBC, Bloomberg, and the Washington Post, among others. And most recently, Rebecca is the author of the book, Your Best Meeting Ever. In this episode we discuss the following: At a time when our calendars are packed with meetings, Rebecca reminds us that meetings shouldn't just happen—they should be designed. Her "Meeting Doomsday" experiment was interesting: a simple 48-hour calendar purge saved employees an average of 11 hours per month by forcing them to rebuild their schedules with intentionality. A few simple strategies can go a long way: treat our meetings like a product. Fight our instinct to add, and instead use the "Rule of Halves" to cut the duration and/or attendees by 50%. Measure our "Return on Time Investment" (ROTI) with simple post-meeting pulse checks. If we want to overcome organizational inertia and Parkinson's Law—where work expands to fill the time allotted—we have to stop using meetings as a knee-jerk default and start seeing them as our most expensive, yet least optimized, business asset. And then design them carefully.

Hubert Joly is a Harvard Business School lecturer and globally recognized leadership thinker focused on re-founding business around purpose and people. A former Chairman and CEO of Best Buy, he led one of the most celebrated corporate turnarounds of the past decade by rejecting cost-cutting playbooks in favor of purpose-driven strategy. At Harvard Business School, he co-leads flagship CEO programs and advises organizations on developing next-generation leaders. Joly serves on the boards of Johnson & Johnson and S&P Global, is a trustee of the New York Public Library, has been named among the world's top CEOs and management thinkers by HBR, Barron's, Glassdoor, and Thinkers50, and is the bestselling author of The Heart of Business. In this episode we discuss the following: When Hubert became CEO of Best Buy, he resisted the instinct to cut, cut, cut. Instead, as a first-time CEO, he chose to be a learn-it-all rather than a know-it-all—constantly asking, What's working? What's not? And what do you need? He then held himself to a strong “say-do” ratio, making sure his actions matched his words. I was also struck by the hierarchy he emphasized at Best Buy: people, business, finance. Of course a company has to make money. But when meetings start with finance or strategy, the implicit message is that people come second. Best Buy ultimately clarified this by defining its purpose as enriching lives through technology by addressing human needs. Another powerful idea was Hubert's reminder that culture changes faster than we think—if behavior changes first. If you want to be customer-centric, don't just talk about customers. Spend time with them. Behavior shapes culture surprisingly fast. Give a name or brand to our behavior change goals.

Tal Ben-Shahar is an academic, author, speaker, teacher and co-founder of the Happiness Studies Academy. His classes on Positive Psychology and Leadership were among the largest courses in Harvard's history, and he teaches, speaks, and consults around the world, to the general public, governments, Fortune 500 companies, and educational institutions. Tal's personal mission statement is “to make the world a better place through wholebeing education” and his internationally best-selling books have been translated into more than 25 languages. Tal has been featured on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, NBC, FOX, CNN, and 60 Minutes among others. Tal earned both his BA and PHD from Harvard. In this episode we discuss the following: Tal flips a common assumption on it's head: happiness doesn't start with feeling good; it starts with giving ourselves permission to feel bad. Painful emotions aren't a bug in the system. They're proof that we're alive. The mistake we make is treating emotions as moral verdicts rather than facts of nature, and then trying to suppress what we feel. The key is to accept what we're feeling and then chose to act in line with our values. The real work isn't learning these ideas. It's applying them, and for that reason Tal wears a bracelet to help him bridge the knowing / doing gap. In summary, to be happy, remember to let yourself feel bad. And then ACT.

Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist and the creator, executive producer, and host of the podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, which Apple awarded as the Best Show of the Year in 2021. Maya was a Senior Advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and served as Chair of the White House Behavioral Science Team. She also served as the first Behavioral Science Advisor to the United Nations, and as a core member of Pete Buttigieg's debate preparation team during his 2020 presidential run. Maya has a postdoctoral fellowship in cognitive neuroscience from Stanford, a Ph.D. in cognitive psychology from Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship, and a B.A. from Yale. She's been profiled by The New Yorker and been the featured guest on NPR's All Things Considered, Freakonomics, and Hidden Brain. She's also a graduate of the Juilliard School of Music's pre-college program. And most recently, Maya is the author of the book, The Other Side of Change. In this episode we discuss the following: I loved Maya's insight about identity. When she injured her finger and could no longer play the violin, she was devastated because she identified as a violinist. But when she looked more broadly at the motivations that drove her, she realized that connection, growth, care, and contribution were underlying motivations. And violin wasn't the only way to accomplish her ultimate goals. By anchoring our identity to deeper motivations rather than specific roles or activities, we create a more resilient sense of self while also creating more opportunities for us to achieve our goals.

Josh Foster is an award-winning independent writer, thinker, and farmer in Rigby, Idaho. He is the author of The Last Good Snow Hunt (2024), The Clean Package: A Pioneer Assemblage (2023), and The Crown Package: A Personal Anthology (2022). Josh earned a PHD in literature and creative writing from the University of Houston, a master's of fine arts degree in fiction and nonfiction from the University of Arizona, and an undergraduate degree in English from BYU Idaho. In between his master's degree and PhD, Josh was selected as a Stegner Fellow at Stanford University, one of the most prestigious creative writing fellowships in the world. Josh also earned a minor in Spanish and studied at the University of Guadalajara. In his almost two-decade writing and publishing career, Josh has served in key editorial positions with notable magazines such as Terrain.org, DIAGRAM, and Gulf Coast. Josh now co-operates the creative cooperative and press FOSTER LITERARY with his wife, the poet Georgia Pearle Foster. In this follow up interview with Josh (see Episode 99 for our first interview) we discuss the following: We covered a lot of ground with Josh, which is always great because he's so full of insight. First the farm, as a metaphor for life. Raising a successful crop each year requires daily blood, sweat, and tears. But even when the uncontrollable weather actually cooperates, markets can suddenly change. It's a never ending struggle. But farmers just keep showing up every day. Water is the lifeblood of the farm, and it was fun to hear how Josh is engaging with community members and policy makers to figure out how to allocate water effectively, and potentially grow the supply. And I look forward to reading his upcoming book on water. I also look forward to reading Georgia and Josh's book, Other People's Parties. As Josh said, he often finds himself at the last moment of things and I'm inspired by how he wants to memorialize and preserve the stories that are fleeting. I'm especially excited to both watch the film Bozwreck and read Josh's novel on his cousin Nate Bozung. After the interview, Josh sent me a brief clip of the film, and I was blown away by the beauty and style of the film. I always love talking to Josh because he teaches me about life and humanity. But he also inspires me. Whenever we create things, we never know the impact they may have. But like the farmer, we just keep showing up every day. And even though the world is confusing, violent, and unfair, let's be good to each other, help each other, and be better.

David Beck is the principal of Granite Connection High School in South Salt Lake, Utah. He has served as a teacher at Pleasant Grove High School, and Assistant Principal at both Cyprus High School and Granger High School in Utah. David earned his undergraduate and graduate degrees from BYU. In this episode we discuss the following: When one of David's students was falling asleep in class, a pep talk was the last thing she needed—she was working until 1:00 a.m. and catching a 6:30 a.m. bus just to get to school. What she needed was love, respect, and repeated check-ins over time. Even when students have especially difficult lives, the answer isn't to lower expectations, but to raise support through mentorship, consistency, interventions, and relationships. Often, what people need most isn't money, but guidance—someone to help them navigate systems and help them believe a different future is possible. By applying the Heath Brothers' Power of Moments framework and intentionally designing positive, celebratory experiences, David massively increased graduation rates. In the end, it all comes down to relationships.

Peter Schein is co-author of the worldwide bestseller, Humble Inquiry: The Gentle Art of Asking Instead of Telling. Together with his father Edgar Schein, one of the founders of organizational psychology, Peter has co-written six books, including Humble Leadership and Career Anchors Reimagined. Peter holds degrees from Stanford, Northwestern and USC.  In this episode we discuss the following: Humble Inquiry is a philosophy about how to get along, gather information, and build relationships. The key is to ask people questions we don't know the answer to. If we tell people what to do, or guide them with questions we already know the answer to, we are telling them that we know best. But by asking people questions we don't know the answer to, we communicate genuine curiosity while also gathering information that we don't currently possess. Remember to ask people questions that we don't know the answer to. 

Dorie Clark is an executive education professor at Duke University's Fuqua School of Business and Columbia Business School, and is the bestselling author of several books, including The Long Game and Stand Out. A frequent Harvard Business Review contributor, she has consulted for leading organizations including Google, Microsoft, and the World Bank. Dorie is former presidential campaign spokeswoman, an award-winning journalist, and a four-time Thinkers50 honoree who was named the world's top communication coach by the Marshall Goldsmith Leading Global Coaches Awards. Dorie holds degrees from Smith College and Harvard Divinity School. In this episode we discuss the following: While Dorie was working grueling hours on the campaign trail for low pay, her boss was earning 10 times her monthly salary in one hour speeches—and that sparked Dorie's curiosity. She realized that the massive pay difference came down to scale. Even if Broadway actors are just as talented as Hollywood actors, the Hollywood actors reach millions more people, thus commanding a premium. Dorie also saw that her boss had earned trust of other high status people who vouched for him. By building up social proof through brand affiliations, media appearances, and content creation, we make it easier for people to trust us. And we can also increase our scale. 

Mike Baer is an award-winning business professor at Arizona State University, where he researches trust, justice, and impression management. Mike has published his research in top academic journals, including the Academy of Management Journal, Journal of Applied Psychology, and Personnel Psychology, and Mike is currently the Editor-in-Chief at one of the field's top journals—Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes.  Mike's research has been covered by media outlets such as Harvard Business Review, Financial Times, PBS, NPR, Business Insider, Men's Health, and New York Magazine among others. Prior to joining academia, Mike worked in the construction industry, at Hewlett Packard's Executive Leadership Development group, and in publishing and online education. He earned his undergraduate and graduate degrees from BYU, and his PHD from the University of Georgia. In this episode we discuss the following: Trust is both a gift and a burden. When we trust others, we can increase their pride and opportunities but can also overload them with responsibilities and pressure. Leaders routinely overload their most trusted people without taking anything off their plates, while under-investing in newer employees who could grow with smaller tasks. Trust shapes how we interpret behavior: trusted employees get the benefit of the doubt; less-trusted ones receive harsh judgments for the same mistakes, which can make early impressions disproportionately powerful. When people are forming those early impressions and deciding whether to trust us, they are thinking about three things: Are we competent? Do we care about them? Do we have good values? So if we do our job well and help other people without being asked, we will tend to make a good impression. About 25% of employees don't actually want more trust—they want stability, not responsibility.

Sébastien Page is the Chief Investment Officer at T. Rowe Price, one of the world's largest investment management firms. Sebastien oversees a team of investment professionals who manage more than $500 billion in assets, and he rose from a non-English-speaking intern to the C-suite. Sébastien is also the author of the book, The Psychology of Leadership.   In this episode we discuss the following: For the sports psychologist and 40-time national handball champ Daniel Zimet, his best match ever was a loss. Roger Federer, one of the greatest tennis players of all time, lost nearly half the points in his career. Outcomes are noisy, and are only loose signals of decision quality. True peak performance, whether in sports, investing, or life, isn't always about winning. It's about a relentless focus on the process. At the highest levels, listening beats speaking, strategic patience often beats knee-jerk decisiveness, and the courage to quit can matter more than blind persistence. None of this matters if we're running on empty. The foundation of sustained excellence is sleep, diet, and exercise.

Ian Williamson is dean of The UC Irvine Paul Merage School of Business. Prior to joining the Merage School, he served as pro vice-chancellor and dean of commerce at the Wellington School of Business and Government at Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. Ian has also served as a faculty member in business schools in Australia, Switzerland, and Indonesia. Ian is a globally recognized expert in the area of human resource management and his research has been published in leading academic journals and covered by leading media outlets across the world. Ian received his PhD from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and a bachelor's degree in business from Miami University. In this episode we discuss the following: Ian sees himself as a steward, making decisions for the person who comes after him, recognizing that he's caring for something that existed long before him and will continue long after him. What a powerful example of long-term thinking Ian encountered with the Māori leaders, who asked, "How will this decision affect our great-grandchildren?'” Not all leadership looks the same, and it's perfectly fine for some leaders to focus on the short term. But the key is being intentional about what our role demands and what kind of leader we want to be.

Elyce Arons is a cofounder of Kate Spade and the cofounder and CEO of Frances Valentine. Elyce grew up on a cattle farm in Kansas before attending the University of Kansas where she met her lifelong best friend, Katy Brosnahan. Together they helped launch the multibillion-dollar bag company Kate Spade, with Katy's eventual husband Andy Spade and Pamela Bell. Elyce is also the author of the book, We Might Just Make it After All.  In this episode we discuss the following:  The great advice Elyce gave about the value of writing thank you notes. Not only has Elyce written countless thank you notes, but also she has helped countless others write thank you notes through her stationery line at Kate Spade. After this interview with Elyce, I ordered a box of thank you notes and a pack of stamps. I first wrote a note to thank my wife Keshia for being so wonderful. And then I wrote a note to Elyce, thanking her for coming on the podcast. And just like that, I'm on track for 25 notes in six months when I check back in with Elyce. I encourage all of you to follow Elyce's advice to write thank you notes to people you meet with. By doing so, you will make others' lives better.

Steph Wagner is the National Director of Women & Wealth at Northern Trust, where she leads the firm's Elevating Women platform focused on building financial literacy. She is the author of the book, Fly!: A Woman's Guide to Financial Freedom and Building a Life You Love, and her insights have been featured in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and Yahoo Finance, among others.   In this episode we discuss the following: When Steph went through her horrific divorce, she realized that she had abdicated her personal financial independence, even though she was a sophisticated corporate finance professional. Even if we're in a partnership, we can be proactive in taking responsibility for our finances. That includes addressing the emotional and psychological aspects of money matters. Communicating openly about personal finance. Using frameworks that help us achieve our goals. And starting now, because time is our greatest ally.

Claude Silver is the Chief Heart Officer at VaynerX and partners with CEO Gary Vaynerchuk to drive their success. Claude has earned Campaign US's Female Frontier Award and AdWeek's Changing the Game Award and is a sought after speaker at companies including Meta, Google, US Government agencies, and the US Armed Forces. She has been featured in The New York Times, Forbes, and The Wall Street Journal, and she is the author of the book, “Be Yourself at Work.” I hope you enjoy learning from Claude Silver today. In this episode we discuss the following: Claude repeatedly found herself in unhealthy, codependent relationships, and it wasn't until  her brother told her that she was living in a pretty prison, followed by a therapist insisting she attend Codependents Anonymous, that Claude began to understand the pattern: she was losing herself by centering her identity around others. Through six years in Codependence Anonymous, Claude learned some powerful lessons: Empathy needs boundaries. You can't change others—only yourself. We each have the agency to steer our own life. It's okay to take up space and be big in the room. We don't have to shrink so someone else can feel better.

Muriel Wilkins is founder and CEO of Paravis Partners and advisor and coach to C-suite executives. She is also the author of Leadership Unblocked and host of the Harvard Business Review podcast Coaching Real Leaders.  In this episode we discuss the following: What often holds us back as leaders isn't the ability to grasp some new tactic. Rather it's the beliefs we hold about ourselves. Many of the mindsets that helped us succeed early on—like needing to be involved in every detail, always being right, or not being willing to make a mistake—can hold us back later. Overcoming our limiting beliefs starts with curiosity: noticing when we're frustrated or blocked, asking what belief might be driving that feeling, and challenging whether it's still true.

Bryan Porter is launching an AI company after serving as a Portfolio Manager at the hedge fund MIG Capital. Earlier in his career, he worked at The Carlyle Group and Goldman Sachs, and earned his MBA from Stanford. But before all of that, Bryan was working at McDonald's and sleeping on couches, in closets, and in cars. In Episode 138 of this podcast, Bryan shares the incredible, inspirational story of how he pulled himself out of his tailspin. And in that episode, we touched briefly on how Bryan became obsessed with health and fitness. In today's episode, we take a deep dive into health and fitness. One reason for Bryan's outlier success is his outlier ability to learn and apply. Over the past three decades, he's studied and implemented the best science on health and fitness in his own life, and today he shares those insights. While this podcast shouldn't be relied on for medical advice, I find Bryan's approach both fascinating and inspiring. I'll be listening to this episode over and again—and it will also be required listening for my kids. And if you're like me, and want to keep learning from Bryan Porter, check out his website: bryan-porter.com. In this episode we discuss the basics of health including: Sleep: Good sleep is the fastest way to feel better and have more mental clarity.  Min get 7 hours, ideally 8. If you're getting less than 6 you're reducing the quality and quantity of your life. Exercise 6 days a week: min 45 min brisk walk daily, break up sitting with 10 body squats every 45 mins – nobody is too busy for that, strength 2x per week, get to max heart rate 1x per week. Really helpful to have an event on the calendar that you're working toward. Eat well: min 1 gram of protein per pound of weight. Lots of fiber. Healthy fat: olive and fish oil. Reverse osmosis filtered water + electrolytes.  But this summary is just the tip of the iceberg. In this episode, Bryan shares 100s of great insights and practical tips for how to be more healthy...How To Make Ourselves Hard to Kill. 

Judd Kessler is a Professor of Business Economics and Public Policy at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. A leading scholar of market design, he was named one of Forbes' 30 Under 30 for his groundbreaking work on organ allocation and received the Vernon L. Smith Ascending Scholar Prize for his pioneering research. His insights have been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, and on Hidden Brain and Freakonomics. With degrees from Harvard and Cambridge, Judd studies the hidden markets that shape our lives and how we can navigate them more effectively. He is also the author of the book, Lucky be Design. In this episode we discuss the following: The most common way to allocate scarce resources is through pricing. But other mechanisms exist: hidden markets. And by staying alert for these hidden markets, we can increase our luck. One of the most common hidden markets is the race: first come, first serve. In Judd's case, when he realized that demand was going to outstrip supply for his child's after school program, he recognized he was in a race, so he made sure to sign up right when registration opened. And he increased his luck. The lottery is another hidden market. If four friends wanted to attend Taylor Swift's Eras Tour, they increase their luck by each entering the lottery for four tickets each. Hunters increase their luck by entering the lottery in years when they're not able to hunt. And people needing organ transplants increase their luck when they sign up through multiple transplant centers.  To get lucky in the dating app world, people can signal that they are worth investing in.  And then I loved Judd's insight on settling for silver. Whether we're trying to get lucky in college admissions, with restaurant reservations, or even in the dating market, we can increase our luck by pursuing a more attainable, less competitive option. And in many cases the silver turns out to be more desirable than the gold.

Sahil Bloom is a writer, investor, and former collegiate athlete who is the author of the New York Times bestseller The 5 Types of Wealth. He earned his undergraduate degree in Economics & Sociology and a master's in public policy from Stanford, where he also played baseball. He also leads SRB Holdings and SRB Ventures, where he invests in early-stage companies. And Sahil has amassed a massive following online, with over 800,000 subscribers to his newsletter and more than 1 million followers on X. In this episode we discuss the following: We can't truly feel successful until we define what success means for ourselves. If we look at the scorecard that is handed to us, which consists of accumulating money, status, titles, and promotions, we will always feel like we need to reach for more, a trap made worse by the arrival fallacy.  Our ability to achieve our goals is influenced by our surroundings. The goal to live a simple life is much easier to accomplish in small town America than New York, where Sahil sees extraordinarily rich people spend their time figuring out ways to impress even more extraordinarily rich people. To help us reveal how much our decisions are influenced by external validation, we can ask ourself some version of the question, “Do I really want this job, or do I want other people to see me having this job?” True success is built on five types of wealth (time, social, mental, physical and financial) rather than chasing society's default measures. 

Admiral James Stavridis is a 4-Star Navy Admiral who served as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. Following his military career, he served as Dean of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Currently he serves as Partner and Vice Chairman of The Carlyle Group, one of the world's largest private equity firms. He also serves as Chair of the Board of Trustees of the Rockefeller Foundation. In this episode we discuss the following: To be a great leader, you have to be in shape. Leaders need energy and health, and sleep is a weapon. If you're not rested, you're not ready for battle. Admiral Stavridis was Captain of a destroyer that failed inspection, it was his peers that had his back and saved him that day. Invest in our peer relationships because they will be honest with us and be unafraid to reach out. Great leaders are great readers. To be a reader is to lead a thousand lives. Every book is a simulator, whether we're learning resilience from The Old Man and the Sea or leadership from the Godfather. Since conducting this interview, I have been reading The Admiral's Bookshelf, and I love learning the lessons he learned from his top 25 books. And because of this conversation I created my own bookshelf of the 25 books that have most influenced me. I've pasted these in the show notes and on my website.   The Admiral's final lesson is timeless. Be humble.  And inspired by The Admiral's Bookshelf, I created my own bookshelf. Nate Meikle's Bookshelf The Book of Mormon & Bible Taught me about Jesus Christ, love, repentance, forgiveness, and endurance Great Expectations by Charles Dickens Reminds me to avoid the superficial Tuesdays with Morrie by Mitch Albom Motivated me to become a professor Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki The first book to get me excited about personal finance, one of the most important, underappreciated topics IMO. A Man for All Seasons by Robert Bolt Motivates me to be honest in all things How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie Improved my communication skills dramatically Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy Warns me of the dangers of infidelity Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte Motivates me to live a life of integrity My Personal Best by John Wooden Taught me about servant leadership and to treat friendship like a fine art The Black Swan by Nassim Taleb Made me realize the importance of long tail events Jim Trelease Read-Aloud Handbook by Jim Trelease Motivated me to teach my daughter to read at age 2, read tens of thousands of books to her (and our subsequent 3 children), and ultimately write my own book (Little Miss) about how to inspire children to love reading Made to Stick by Chip and Dan Heath Taught me the importance of storytelling and how to tell great stories The Wise Heart by Jack Kornfield Taught me about Buddhism, and the three causes of human suffering (Grasping, Aversion, Delusion) A Guide to the Good Life by William Irvine Taught me about Stoic Philosophy and the value of negative visualization and wanting the things we have The Coddling of the American Mind by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt Taught me to not coddle my children and the dangers of cognitive distortions (and the value of cognitive behavioral therapy) The Singularity is Near by Ray Kurzweill (published in 2005) Made me realize that AI is likely the most important invention ever, and persuaded me that Artificial General Intelligence will arrive during my lifetime Poor Charlie's Almanack, by Charlie Munger The greatest collection of wisdom I've ever come across related to investing (specifically) and decision making (generally) Thinking In Bets by Annie Duke Taught me about the dangers of resulting / outcome bias (judging a decision by the outcome rather than the process) Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss Taught me the importance of seeing a negotiation from the other person's point of view, and constantly showing them that you understand their position (by labeling, mirroring, and using an accusations audit) Elon Musk by Walter Isaacson Taught me about elite ambition, determination, and focus Endurance by Alfred Lansing Taught me about unflinching leadership Good Energy by Casey Means Persuaded me to eliminate processed foods and exercise 5-6 days per week Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card Reminds me how capable children are Beneath a Scarlet Sky by Mark Sullivan Inspires me to be courageous The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams Reminds me to try to laugh every day, in every class, in every conversation

Scott D. Anthony is a clinical professor at Dartmouth's Tuck School of Business where he researches and teaches about disruption. Scott previously spent more than 20 years at Innosight, a consultancy founded by Harvard Business School professor Clayton Christensen, serving as Innosight's elected managing partner. Scott has lived in the UK and Singapore, held board roles at public and private companies, given keynote addresses on six continents, and worked with CEOs at numerous global organizations. Thinkers50 named Scott one of the world's most influential and innovative thinkers. And Scott recently published his 9th book, called Epic Disruptions. In this episode we discuss the following: Scott's key insight that every innovation has heroes, plural. While Julia Child is one of the most well-known chefs, her first cookbook had two additional coauthors. Even Scott's book has multiple heroes, as it was his publisher that suggested the topic. Scott's insight on the shadow of innovation. Questioning the status quo and innovating can create winners and losers. Scott's advice that if we want to get better at innovation, we need to find ways to get to intersections. Attend trade shows in different industries, read magazines from different fields, and meet with people from all over the world. 

Margaret Andrews teaches a variety of leadership courses and professional and executive programs at Harvard University and is the founder of the MYLO Center, a leadership development firm. Her MYLO course (Manage Yourself to Lead Others) has had a wait list every time it's been taught for over a decade and has become the most popular professional development program at Harvard. And Margaret has now turned her course into a book titled: Manage Yourself to Lead Others. Margaret earned her undergraduate degree from Cal Berkeley and her graduate degree from MIT. In this episode we discuss the following: When Margaret's boss told her that she wasn't self-aware, she made a change. She learned more about herself and others—and since then, she has been teaching leaders to do the same. Margaret helps leaders by asking questions such as: “Who's thinking has influenced your life?” “What are your core values?” and “What type of leader would you like to become?” Answering these questions helps leaders see where they're at and where they want to go. And then it takes thoughtfulness and intentionality to become the leaders they want to be. We have to understand and manage ourselves if we want to understand and lead others.

Mark C. Crowley is a bestselling author and leadership expert. With twenty-five years in the competitive financial services industry, he rose to national roles, earning Leader of the Year for his heart-centered approach. His book Lead from the Heart, challenges conventional management practices that undermine employee success. In Mark's latest book, The Power of Employee Well-Being, he emphasizes that thriving teams drive organizational success. Mark's Lead From the Heart Podcast is ranked in the top 2 percent globally, reaching 175+ countries. Mark is also a sought-after speaker, Fast Company contributor, and organizational culture consultant shaping modern workplaces. In this episode we discuss the following: I love Mark's message, that the best leaders lead from the heart. They care about people, they support people, they trust people, and they have their best interest at heart. I thought Mark made a really interesting point that we admire coaches who show that they love their players. But the conventional business leaders shy away from this type of heart-led leadership. When we think about the best leaders we know, the ones who we'll run through a brick wall for, they're the ones who truly love us. The best leaders lead from the heart.

Adam Wowak is a Professor of Management & Organization in the Mendoza College of Business at the University of Notre Dame where he teaches strategic management to MBA and Ph.D. students. Adam's research focuses on strategic leadership and corporate governance. His work has appeared in top-tier academic journals, including Administrative Science Quarterly, Academy of Management Review, Academy of Management Journal, Strategic Management Journal, and Organization Science. His research has also been profiled in media outlets such as The Atlantic, Financial Times, Forbes, NBC News, New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal, among others. Adam received both his bachelor's degree and Ph.D. from Penn State University. In this episode we discuss the following: When Adam graduated college, he had a prestigious job as an investment banker. It paid well. It was intellectually challenging. He liked the people he was working with. But he wasn't excited to work every day. He didn't have autonomy. And he didn't have creative outlets. So he thought about the tradeoffs he was making by staying. He then considered the  tradeoffs he would make by leaving. By thinking about tradeoffs, Adam gained clarity on what mattered most to him. He ultimately chose to leave banking and found his way to academia, which has its own set of tradeoffs, but ones that Adam is happier with. As Adam tells his students, there are three types of careers people can have. One they love. One they hate. And one they're okay with, in the murky middle. And it's this third kind of career that people need to watch out for so that they don't drift, and wake up 20 years later realizing they should have thought more carefully about the tradeoffs they were making. Remember to think about the tradeoffs we're making, both when we stick with the status quo and when we decide to change.    Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Brad Johnson is the Co-founder of Triad Partners, an organization that helps financial advisors grow their businesses. Before co-founding Triad, Brad spent 13 years at Advisors Excel as a VP of Advisor Development, coaching top financial advisors who managed over $1.5 billion in assets. Brad is also the host of the podcast, Do Business. Do Life, where he interviews thought leaders and helps financial advisors integrate their work and personal lives. Raised on a farm in Kansas, Brad's personal interests include CrossFit, bass fishing, collecting red wine, and supporting children's charities. In this episode we discuss the following: I love the Stoic lesson Brad shared about the prized cup. If we expect our prized cup to never break, we'll be devastated when it does. But if we've already been through the mental exercise of the cup breaking, it can be much easier to stay calm and confident when our prized cups do break. Being an entrepreneur is constantly dealing with broken, prized cups. I loved hearing how Brad tries to apply Jocko's advice for dealing with setbacks by responding with a simple “Good.” Brad's emphasis on seeking out mindset coaching stood out. The best athletes get the most coaching. So it makes sense that we too need regular feedback and mindset coaching to reach our potential. By jumping into the trench himself, Brad is giving himself more opportunities to deal with broken cups. And I love his advice for how we can deal with the broken cups in our lives.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Vivek Viswanathan is one of the brightest, kindest, most thoughtful individuals I have ever known. A son of immigrant parents, Vivek excelled in school attending Harvard, Cambridge, and Stanford. He then excelled in business, working for McKinsey (kind of) and Kleiner Perkins. Then Vivek excelled in politics working for Governor Brown, Governor Newsom, Hilary Clinton's presidential campaign, and eventually serving as Special Assistant to the President of the United States. In this episode we walk through Vivek's career progression as well as some of the lessons he learned along the way. We also discuss the following: While I was intrigued by so many things in this interview, starting with how high-school Vivek preferred policy camp to sports camp, I was especially intrigued by Vivek's perspective on living an integrated life: combining our values and passions, and then spending time with people who reflect those values. Vivek is a master at building and maintaining relationships, and then constantly striving to learn all he can from others. While Vivek's professional achievements are remarkable, I'm most impressed by his commitment to doing good in the world. As Vivek reminded us, to achieve anything worthwhile in life, we have to work really hard, all the while accepting the uncontrollable.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Marianne Lewis is dean of the University of Cincinnati College of Business, and she previously served as dean of Bayes Business School at City, University of London. Marianne researches organizational paradoxes, including the tensions surrounding leadership and innovation. She has been recognized among the world's most-cited researchers in her field, having won numerous academic awards, and her work also appears in media outlets, such as Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, and Newsweek. Her latest book, Both/And Thinking is published by Harvard Business School Press. In this episode we discuss the following: I love Marianne's insight that the best leaders are not tough or kind, but rather both.  Toughness and kindness are not opposite ends of a spectrum but rather two sides of the same coin. And any leader who pushes too hard on one, while ignoring the other, will not reach their potential. And I thought it was especially interesting to hear about the creative geniuses who also appreciated tension and paradoxes: motion vs rest, particle vs wave, harmony vs discord, light vs. dark, life vs death. The magic is in the tension. When it comes to leadership the best leaders are both tough and kind. Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Darren Heitner is a nationally recognized attorney who specializes in sports and entertainment law. And most recently Darren has become one of the nation's experts on NIL (name, image, and likeness). His client list is a who's who of professional sports, including athletes and coaches such as Terrell Owens, Johnny Manziel, Randy Moss, Tyreek Hill, Manny Ramirez, Draymond Green, and Rick Pitino, to name just a few. Darren earned both his BA and JD from the University of Florida, where he was also a Valedictorian.  In this episode we discuss the following: Darren's goal to remember why he's doing it: to help his clients. And one way he does that is by continually challenging himself to be a student. When NFTs exploded onto the scene, Darren learned all he could and became an NFT expert. As NIL transactions ramped up, so did Darren, becoming one of the go-to attorneys for everything related to NIL. Rather than fear new technologies, Darren gets excited by them and then learns all he can about them. Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Martin Dubin is a clinical psychologist, serial entrepreneur, business coach, and adviser to C-suite executives and Silicon Valley entrepreneurs. Marty is also the author of the book Blindspotting: How To See What's Holding You Back as a Leader. In this episode we discuss the following: It's interesting to hear Marty describe how leaders' weaknesses are often just the flip side of their strengths. The leader who works hard, and sends emails at 2 am, might be unintentionally modeling a standard that isn't possible for others to achieve. I also loved Marty's advice for leaders to prioritize the things that only they can do. And lastly, I was especially intrigued by Marty's point that the most elite performers get the most coaching.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle  

Saxon Baltzer, from Huntington Beach California, is a surfer, musician, and skateboarder. And Saxon recently won the National Scholastic Surfing Association Championship. In this episode we discuss the following: I'm truly inspired by Saxon's drive and commitment. Though he started to surf at age two, it was his commitment in high school that set him up for his national championship. Waking up early each weekday to first attend seminary, and then get to the beach, Saxon refined his skill while also learning to surf all kinds of waves. And he was also flexible, willing to focus on long boarding to get on his high school team. And what a wild story about his national competition: forgetting his board, borrowing his coach's, nailing a buzzer beater on Saturday, saying a prayer to find his board, finding it with Dimitri, and then landing another clutch buzzer beater on Sunday for the national championship. And most remarkably, Saxon is now giving up surfing for two years and moving across the country to share a gospel message in hopes of helping others. As Saxon so perfectly demonstrates, sacrifice, persistence, and passion are key to success.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Avi Kluger is a professor of Organizational Behavior at Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Avi was born in Tel Aviv to Holocaust survivors and is married with three children. And he is also a grandfather. In this episode we discuss the following: I was touched by Avi's vulnerability in sharing how listening has saved his life—twice. After his daughter died by suicide, it was the listening community that Avi had cultivated that helped him carry on, even as his pain and sorrow endured. One friend, in particular, asked Avi to recount the last day he spent with his daughter—and then told him she'd listen to that story 100 more times if he needed to. Listening saved Avi again during an exercise where he realized he'd spent five years on a project simply to prove a point, rather than because he valued it. That moment launched Avi's mission to become a better listener every day of his life. I was especially intrigued by how Avi doesn't dwell on people's listening mistakes. Instead, he helps them discover how to improve. And he extends the same compassion to himself when he falls short.  He simply notices and praises his awareness.  I was impressed by how present Avi was with me, encouraging me to take my time and then referenced earlier parts of our conversation, demonstrating that he truly heard me.  Because of this conversation, I have adopted Avi's goal: to become a better listener every day. And because of this interview, Avi will soon be coming to Kansas to teach a listening seminar, and I cannot wait to learn more from him. When someone truly listens, it creates a magical space-- a meeting of the minds where ideas emerge that could not have been reached alone.     Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Dave Hunsaker is a business professor at Indiana University in the Kelley School of Business where he researches negotiation, teams, and leadership. Dave earned his PhD from the University of Utah and both an MPA and BA from Brigham Young University. In this episode we discuss the following: How impressed I am with Dave and Melissa and their ability to face the uncertainty and challenges of moving to China with five kids, something that the system in China is not designed for. From three-hour entrance exams, two-hour daily commutes, and 16-hour days for their children, I can only imagine how difficult this was. And then of course they faced the risk of being separated from their children if any of them ever tested positive for COVID. And I was especially intrigued by things I learned about China. Getting into a great first grade can be more difficult than getting into college. To reduce the pressure on kindergartners, teaching math was prohibited at schools. But then parents hired tutors to teach math to the kindergartners outside of school, often creating more stress. Many Chinese students are essentially forced to drop out of high school by 9th grade. And Chinese culture doesn't always reward problem solving so much as it rewards following rules. Finally I love the lesson Dave shared about what he learned. It's important to hold off on judgements, because our assumptions about people are often wrong. However, people are generally pretty reasonable once we understand why they're doing what they're doing.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Wendy Smith is an award-winning business professor at the University of Delaware, where she also serves as Co-director of the Women's Leadership Initiative. Wendy's research focuses on strategic paradoxes – how leaders and senior teams effectively respond to contradictory agendas. Her research has been published in top-tier academic journals and her book, Both/And Thinking, was published by Harvard Business School Press in 2022. Wendy earned her Ph.D. in organizational behavior at Harvard Business School. In this episode we discuss the following: When we view our challenges through an either/or lens, we limit our options, often leading to suboptimal decisions. Both/and thinking, on the other hand, enhances creativity leading to better outcomes. Take fairness, for example. Some argue it means treating everyone the same. Others believe it requires treating people differently to ensure comparable outcomes. Both views have merit and represent a classic paradox. And this is where Wendy's process if helpful. First, notice the paradox, notice the either/or. And then change the frame to see if we can accomplish both. Is there a win/win that allows us to do both right now? I love Wendy's mule analogy here—the mule, a hybrid of horse and donkey, represents the power of combining two different paths. And if we can't do both at once, maybe we can do both over time. Wendy's tightrope metaphor was excellent. A tightrope walker stays balanced by making continuous, slight adjustments as they move forward. If we stick to either/or thinking we risk getting trapped, incapable of adapting when context changes.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Ethan Burris is a senior associate dean in the business school at the University of Texas at Austin, where he is also a professor of management.   Ethan has helped improve operations and employee engagement for several top companies, including Fortune 500 companies in technology, financial services, casual dining, grocery, and retail sectors, along with hospitals, defense contractors, commercial real estate companies, and governmental agencies. He has also acted as a visiting scholar for Microsoft and Google.   Ethan earned a PhD and MS from Cornell University where he worked as a lecturer before joining Texas.   In this episode we discuss the following: In order for leaders to consistently make the best decisions, they need access to the best information. But all too often, employees who have that information don't speak up. To get employees to speak up, maybe the most important thing managers can do is proactively reach out and solicit voice. No good manager has ever said they have a closed-door policy. But if we don't have systems in place that encourage employee voice, our door will feel much more closed to employees than we perceive.  Simple techniques can help employees speak up. For example, managers can use the two-question, two-word response check in at the beginning of meetings: How are you feeling? What's going on? This gives people a chance to speak, while also creating an expectation that everyone has something to say. Eye contact can also be important. When we give deference to people it signals we trust them and helps them feel like speaking up. It's also important for leaders to be consistent, otherwise it feels risky to speak up. Proactively seeking voice comes at a cost. Many of the Type A+ people Ethan consults with feel like some of these things are too touchy feel. Some of the activities also take time that could be spent on other things. By proactively seeking out voice, we signal that we value it and increase the odds that we get access to the best information from our employees.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Peter Kim is a business professor at the University of Southern California where he studies the dynamics of social misperception. His research has been published in numerous scholarly journals, received ten national/international awards, and been featured by the New York Times, Washington Post, and National Public Radio. And while not the focus of this interview, Peter is the author of the book, How Trust Works: The Science of How Relationships Are Built, Broken, and Repaired. In this episode we discuss the following: Rather than follow the traditional path in academia and focus on one specific, well-established research area, Peter pursued topics that were interesting to him. And then over time, Peter was able to see that there was a broad theme that connected his research, even if it wasn't an off-the-shelf research program. Peter realized that he had an inner voice that was guiding him. It wasn't always clear where he was headed. Listening to his inner voice created challenges for him. But the importance of listening to his inner voice is something that has stuck with him ever since. And it's something he still revisits to this day, because his inner voice keeps guiding him. We can pursue any combination of the things we want that fit with what our inner voice is telling us.  

Ryan Fehr is a business professor at the University of Washington, where he teaches courses on leadership and personal change. His research focuses on helping people build more joyful and energizing relationships, with a particular interest in gratitude, compassion, and forgiveness. His work has been featured in news outlets such as the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. His first book, focused on helping people build the skills they need for joyful, energizing relationships, is scheduled for publication in the Fall. In this episode we discuss the following: As Ryan said, it's okay to feel burned out by other people sometimes: 72% of parents say they're constantly stressed, 75% said they're too busy to enjoy their lives, and when workers quit, 57% say it's because their relationships are too much. Each of us has a different set point for how much alone time we need, so we should be thoughtful about how to cultivate solitude that energizes us. For Ryan, cultivating solitude that energizes him means going to movies, restaurants, or even new cities alone. At his daughter's elementary school, that meant providing a room for students to take a break from the dance and watch a movie. Going to networking events can be overwhelming for some people. So a strategy Ryan recommends is to just try to have one meaningful conversation. 

Judge Bruce Smith, the first judge to appear on Meikles & Dimes, served as a judge advocate in the United States Air Force for 22 years. After that, he served for more than a decade as an administrative law judge with the United States Department of homeland security. Following his time on the bench, he founded the successful business venture, BartlettJames, LLC, serving as CEO. In this episode we discuss the following: Bruce shared an interesting story about a hospital that was responsible for a child's death. Rather than lawyer up, the hospital admitted their mistake and took full responsibility. Sadly, in Bruce's experience as a judge for decades, this sort of accountability is far less common than it should be. Saying we screwed up is not a sign of weakness, but rather it's a sign of strength and character. And speaking of character and ethics, we should follow the law, we should make sure our behavior benefits people and the planet, and we should never do anything that we'd be embarrassed to tell our mothers about.

Martin Reeves is chairman of the Boston Consulting Group's Henderson Institute, a think tank dedicated to developing new insights from business, technology, economics, and science. He is a coauthor of several books, including his most recent book, Like, which describes the genesis of the Like button, which was created in part, by his co-author Bob Goodson. In this episode we discuss the following: Though we often think of innovation is heroic, deliberate, and isolated, it's often serendipitous, unpredictable, and social. The idea of inventions as private property, which reinforces the often incorrect notion that inventions are made by single inventors, is a relatively recent invention in human history. We never know the impact of innovation. The Like button blew up an industry and created a host of new challenges and problems to be solved. Whether in the field of academic papers, the creation of the Davy lamp, or a simple Like button, innovation is rarely an isolated, independent event.

Todd Herman works with the highest performers in sports and business to help them achieve their most ambitious goals. He has been featured on the Today Show, Inc Magazine, NFL Films, CBS, and Business Insider among others. And his professional programs are delivered to over 200,000 professionals annually in 73 countries. Todd is also the author of the book, The Alter Ego Effect. In this episode we discuss the following: When Kobe Bryant was struggling, Todd helped him create an alter-ego which would eventually become the Black Mamba. Though creating an alter-ego can feel inauthentic or weird, creating a model of the person we want to become can help us behave in ways that will allow us to reach our goals. We all have multiple identities, but being thoughtful about the identities we adopt and create can help us become the best versions of ourselves, whether we're creating a Spiderman, fitness, public speaking, or business alter ego. The highest performing, most capable people have powerful tools in their tool belts. And creating an alter-ego, like we once did as children, is a tool we can add to our own belt. There is power in using our identity to reach our most ambitious goals.

Zach Mercurio is a researcher, author, and speaker specializing in leadership, mattering, and meaningful work. He is the author of the books The Invisible Leader and The Power of Mattering, and some of his clients include the U.S. Army, J.P. Morgan Chase, Delta Airlines, Marriott International, The Government of Canada, and The National Park Service. Zach also serves as one of Simon Sinek's “Optimist Instructors,” teaching a course with Simon on how leaders can show everyone how they matter. Zach earned a Ph.D. in organizational learning, performance, and change from Colorado State University, where he now serves as a Senior Honorary Fellow in the Center for Meaning and Purpose. In this episode we discuss the following: To show people they matter we can ask them, “When you feel that you matter to me, what am I doing?” And then do more of those things. We can show people they matter by providing evidence (e.g., pictures) of how their work benefits others. We can show people we need them by pointing out what wouldn't get done without them. Just because something is common sense, doesn't mean it's common practice. But by taking simple steps to notice and affirm people, even scheduling our good intentions, we can help people know that they matter and close the knowing / doing gap.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Tozer and I continue our discussion with Raul and we learn how Raul got Vicente Fox, the former president of Mexico, to visit Raul's university. We also dive into the moral philosophy that Raul so effectively teaches his students.

In this episode Tozer and I talk with Raul Rodriguez, who has one of the most impressive life stories I've ever heard. I think you'll really enjoy hearing about Raul's life and the impact Tozer had on it it.

In this episode we talk with Tozer and Greg Fullmer (aka Fromer). 

Kannon Shanmugam is a partner at the law firm Paul Weiss and has argued 39 cases before the Supreme Court, representing clients such as Goldman Sachs, ExxonMobil, Meta, Warner Music, Bank of America, Coinbase, and the NFL, among others. Kannon has also argued more than 150 appeals in courts across the country, including all 13 federal courts of appeals. A longtime Supreme Court reporter said that Kannon has “perhaps the most eloquent and elegant manner … that I've ever seen in my 40 years covering the Court." Legal 500 called Kannon "a brilliant lawyer and tactician, with impeccable judgment and an optimal moral compass." It added, “you won't find a more talented, sophisticated, compelling lawyer—and he matches that with his overall humility and kind nature.” Before entering private practice, Kannon served as an Assistant to the Solicitor General at the U.S. Department of Justice and as a law clerk to Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Kannon earned his undergraduate degree from Harvard, was a Marshall Scholar at the University of Oxford, and then returned to Harvard for his Law degree. In this episode we discuss the following: As Judge Sack told Kannon, all you can do in a career is stand by the hoop and hope that somebody passes you the ball. There's no substitute for hard work. At the top levels, everyone has great credentials. But what differentiates the very best people is they put in the work, in a profession where there are no shortcuts. Surround yourself with great people, including great mentors. But not just older people. Kannon devoted a lot of time to finding the most talented young attorneys who were driven, smart, and enthusiastic. Enthusiasm is one of the most important things Kannon looks for when identifying talented people: enthusiasm to work, enthusiasm to grow, and enthusiasm to learn. If you love what you do, it's easy to get out of bed in the morning and keep doing it. Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle  

In this episode we discuss why Tozer moved from Idaho Falls to Los Alamos. We also learn how Tozer became the Father of LANL's Information System that tracks hazardous waste. 

In this episode we talk with Casey Bergeson, one of Tozer's first "roommates" and one of Tozer's closest friends.

Bob Goodson is President and Founder of Quid, a Silicon Valley–based company whose AI models are used by a third of the Fortune 50. Before starting Quid, Bob was the first employee at Yelp, where he played a role in the genesis of the Like Button. Bob is also a co-author of the new book Like, which tells the story of the origins of the Like Button in social media.  In this episode we discuss the following: The question Bob routinely asks himself: “What is the most important problem in my field and am I working on it?” It's nearly impossible to make meaningful contributions to important fields from the outside. But by placing ourselves in the heat and discomfort of the furnace, we give ourselves the chance to do our most important work. By working on the most important problem in our field, we potentially give ourselves an advantage, because often there aren't as many people working on that problem as we might think.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Siri Chilazi is a researcher at the Women and Public Policy Program at Harvard Kennedy School. Siri specializes in identifying practical approaches to close gender gaps at work by designing fairer processes. Her work regularly appears in leading media outlets including the BBC, Fast Company, Forbes, Harvard Business Review, and The New York Times. She is also the co-author of the book, Make Work Fair. Siri has an MBA from Harvard Business School, a Master's in Public Policy from Harvard Kennedy School, and a BA in Chemistry and Physics from Harvard College. In this episode we discuss the following: When computer science classrooms changed the pictures on the walls, from masculine-associated pictures to more gender-neutral pictures, more women expressed interest in computer science. As Siri said, we should strive to have humility about how much we trust our brains and our own intuition. And by doing so, we can hopefully make work, and the world, more fair. Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Riley Jensen is the lead Mental Performance Coach at Weber State University Athletics. He has coached and trained professional, college, and high school athletes as well as corporate clients from companies such as Microsoft and the Utah Jazz.   In this episode we discuss the following: If we're thinking about coulda shoulda wouldas, we're in the past. If we're thinking about what ifs, we're in the future. But to help us be where our feet are, we can think about 3 things we see, 2 things we hear, and 1 thing we feel. Then add in a deep, diaphragmatic breath and we'll reset and get our minds into the moment. When Riley didn't think he could make it through another 60 days of caring for his sick daughter, his mom asked him, “Can you make it through tomorrow.” Greatness is achieved one day at a time, one rep at a time. And if we're worried we can't make it through one day, can we make it until lunch, or even just through the next ten minutes. It's never as bad as it seems, and it's never as good as it gets.   Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Theresa Glomb is a business professor at the University of Minnesota. She researches the role of mood at work, and has identified several simple, micro-interventions that can improve our working lives. Theresa has published her research in top management and psychology journals and been covered in media outlets such as the Wall Street Journal, The Economist, and Huffington Post.  Theresa received a PhD in social, organizational, and individual differences psychology from the University of Illinois and a BA in psychology from DePaul University.  In this episode we discuss the following: To help us work hard, Theresa suggests we “park downhill.” Each day, as we finish work, we can queue up the thing we need to work on first the next day, which can help us hit the ground running. To help us have fun, we can reflect, each night, on the good things we did at work. The negative tends to be stronger than the positive, but by creating an “I did list” each night, we can improve our mood and even our health.  By being present throughout the day, for example, while walking to a meeting, we not only improve our attention quotient, but also can improve our relationships with others. Though work can often feel like we're digging a hole in water, Theresa provides great tools to reframe and restructure our days: work hard, have fun, choose kind, be present.    Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle

Tamara Myles is an instructor of Positive Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and is an accomplished consultant, trainer, and international speaker. She is a leading global authority on meaning at work and she is the author of the book, "Meaningful Work.” Tamara's work has been featured in FastCompany, Business Insider, and Forbes, among other publications. In this episode we discuss the following: Given that we spend one third of our time at work, it's hard to feel like life is meaningful if work isn't. Sometimes it just requires a mental shift to make work meaningful. For example, a data center worker realized she wasn't just connecting wires, she was connecting people, and even saving lives given all the industries that depended on the data center. When a young guest at the Ritz Carlton left their stuffed animal behind, the workers didn't just return the stuffed animal. They also took pictures of the stuffed animal enjoying an extra-long vacation at the resort. To make work meaningful, strive for community, contribution, and challenge. And then try to help others experience meaning as well. Connect on Social Media: X: https://twitter.com/nate_meikle LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natemeikle/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nate_meikle/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@nate.meikle