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Join us as we welcome internet marketing titan, Perry Belcher, to the AM/PM Podcast! Listen in as we journey through Perry's remarkable career path - from humble beginnings before turning to digital marketing. Perry's illustrious career even saw him get a personal call from none other than Jeff Bezos himself, a short story you don't want to miss!   The conversation continues with Perry reflecting on the rise and fall of his business and partnerships. His journey, marked by selling health supplements to launching a digital marketing business, and finally starting the Driven Mastermind and the War Room, is an insightful one for any entrepreneur. Our chat also covers the importance of joining a mastermind group, the benefits it can bring, and how it can help you gain a broad perspective of different industries.   Lastly, Perry shares fascinating insights about the role of AI in business, specifically in copywriting. From reducing labor costs to crafting compelling headlines and stories, the potential applications of AI are far-reaching. He also discusses misconceptions people have about AI and the opportunities it presents. Tune in for a riveting discussion about the intersection of AI, E-commerce, and internet marketing. In episode 365 of the AM/PM Podcast, Kevin and Perry discuss: 09:22 - Success in Real Estate and Selling 16:45 - Running Successful Events 23:30 - The Value of Networking and Collaboration 29:55 - Selling Event Recordings for Profit 34:19 - Cash Prize Incentives for Speakers 39:00 - Leveraging Email Lists for Business Success 42:06 - Artificial Intelligence And Its Impact On Internet Marketing 53:21 - Other Mindblowing AI Capabilities 57:27 - AI's Role in Various Industries 1:07:38 - Follow Perry on Facebook for Updates 1:09:46 - Kevin's Words Of Wisdom Kevin King: Welcome to episode 365 of the AEM PM podcast. My guest this week is none other than the famous Perry Belcher. If you don't know who Perry is, perry is one of the top internet marketers, probably one of the top copywriters in the world today. He's got his hands in all kinds of stuff, from newsletters to AI, to print on demand to funnels, to you name it. In marketing, Perry's either got tremendous amount of experience in it or he's heavily involved in it right now. We talked some shop today and just go kind of all over the place on some really cool, interesting topics. I think you're getting a lot from this episode, so I hope you enjoy it. And don't forget, if you haven't yet, be sure to sign up for the Billion Dollar Sellers Newsletter. It's at billiondollarsellerswithaness.com. It's totally free. New issue every Monday and Thursday. It's getting rave reviews from people in the industry and some of the top people in the industry as well as people just getting started. So it's got a little bit different take on it and just a lot of information. Plus, we have a little bit of fun as well in the newsletter. So hopefully you can join us at billiondollarsellers.com. Enjoy today's episode with Perry. Perry Belcher, welcome to the AM/PM Podcast. It's an honor to have you on here. How's?   Perry: it going, man, Dr King, esquire at all. I'm doing great, buddy, I'm doing great. I'm just trying to survive this hot, hot, hot summer that we're all having, you know.   Kevin King: Well, you're out there in Vegas. Y'all had floods, right. I was seeing some stuff on TikTok, like some of the casino garages and stuff were flooding.   Perry: Yeah, there were some floods out here, so it's been. We got like years worth of rain in two days or something like that, they said, which we could stand. It didn't hurt. But the hot weather out here is just the way that it is. You get used to it after a little while.   Kevin King: Yeah, it's the same in Austin. It's like 108, I think today, and I know you know, football season just recently started and everybody's complaining that they're doing a game. One of the first games was in the middle of the afternoon, like 2.30 in the afternoon and like man, half these people are going to be dying out there, you better have some extra medical. You know supposed to do these things at night in Texas during September.   Perry: My kid did in the middle of the day and he had some days that they were kids passing out, you know. So I don't miss the heat in Austin. I'll take the heat in Vegas instead. It's different kind of heat to me.   Kevin King: Yeah, it's not. It's more of a dry heat, not that, not that human heat that we have here. I'll take it so for those. There's some probably some people listening that don't know. They're like who's this? Perry Belcher character? I never heard of this Perry Belcher guy and if you haven't, you've probably been living on a rock in internet marketing, because Perry Belcher is one of the living legends out there and when it comes to internet marketing, it's not just he dabbles on Amazon, but it's Amazon's just a little piece of what he does. He does a ton of other stuff. So, and you've been doing this since you're like, you've been an entrepreneur since you're like I don't know, three years old. I heard you selling hot dogs. I mean, you've pretty much done, everything from run from selling hot dogs to running, I don't know jewelry, pear shops or something, to having little kiosk in the mall, to crazy kind of stuff. I mean, just for those that don't know who the heck you are, just give a little bit about your background.   Perry: Sure, I'm world famous in Kazakhstan. I started out, you know, I grew up really poor in little town in Kentucky, paducah. It's a sound of dead body makes when it hits the floor. And I'll as soon as I could. I stayed there until I could drive. I could drive a car. I got the heck out of there and went to the big city, nashville, you know, and I got into, you know, early on I got into retail and I owned 42 jewelry stores. At one time when I was really, really young, before I was old enough to buy beer, I owned 42 jewelry stores. Isn't that crazy? That's crazy. Not that I didn't buy beer, but as long as I was legally buying beer Exactly. You know. So I was in retail. I went out of, you know, eventually I made three different runs and retailed it, Okay, and then I got into manufacturing. I found I really enjoyed manufacturing Great deal. I still do a lot of manufacturing, as you know and then along, I guess about 1997, for those young whippersnappers that were born about then that are on in your Amazon crowd right In 1997, they invented this thing called the interwebs and Jeff Bezos started a store called Amazon and I sort of got. I sort of got all caught up in the web thing. And you probably don't know this story. It was a true story, Kevin. I got a call from Jeff Bezos when I owned craftstorecom, so this was in probably 1998 or 1999. I got a personal call from Jeff Bezos wanting to talk to me about buying craftstorecom and rolling it into the Amazon family. And then they were only selling books, they were bleeding I don't even know $100 million, a quarter, or some crazy number. And I'm like dude, you're, I'm reading about you, you're losing money, I'm making money. You know, I think you got this reversed. I probably should buy you. I swear to God, I said that. Yeah yeah, I said that that was about best I can figure about a $750 million mistake.   Kevin King: Well, it's funny you say that, because I mean we go back, we're old school when it comes to way, before you know all this internet marketing craze. We were doing old school marketing, you know, by by putting a postage stamp on an envelope and sending it out. And I remember I have a couple of similar stories back around that same time, early late 90s, early 2000s. The guy at MySpace had just started somewhere around in there and those guys reached out to me. I had a newsletter, an online newsletter going at the time, and they reached out to me to do something and I turned. I just ignored them. I was like what's this MySpace thing? I never heard of it.   Perry: I did the same thing with Jim Barksdale. You know who that was. Yeah, yeah, barksdale wanted to buy one of my companies and I blew them off, and he was Netscape you know they also used to do back you might remember this back.   Kevin King: I had several different websites and to get traffic back before there was Google and all these. You know, this SEO and all this stuff is basically as Alta Vista and you know, I love that, I love that Yahoo and all these guys and you could just just by putting stuff in the meta tags, you'd rank, you know on top of the crap out of yeah. You put a text down at the bottom and all the good, all the good, all the good all the good, all that kind of stuff. But I one of the things, what you might remember this there is what's called ring sites. So in order to get traffic, you go to some guy would figure out how to get people to his site and then it would be like next or previous, and you'd hit a button and it would go to the next, previous, and then we had a newsletter that was doing about 250,000 emails a day back before can spam and all that stuff and to get traffic to it. You know, we were getting on Howard Stern Show when he was on terrestrial radio and we were doing all kinds of crazy stuff. But I was working with a site called BOMAS B-O-M-I-S and they had one of these ring sites and we they were like one of our top sources of traffic and I just remember there's two guys there running out of their apartment or something. I talked to one of them. This is like probably around 2000 or so, ish, 2001. He said, hey, you're going to be dealing with me from now on. My buddy is moving on. I'm like all right. I said James is moving on. I said, ok, cool, what's he going to do? He said I don't know, some sort of encyclopedia or something. I'm not sure what he's going to do. He's got some some crazy idea. Turns out it was Jimmy Wells from Wikipedia. I was actually working with Jimmy Wells from Wikipedia before he was Jimmy Wells from Wikipedia. Isn't that crazy? It's crazy, I mean the stories that we can tell from the early days of the Internet.   Perry: When I look back, I just can't. You know my buddy's favorite saying, and I've adopted this I can't believe how stupid I was two weeks ago.   You know like you. Just you just realize you know just the boneheaded stuff that you did when there was so much opportunity. The first domain I ever bought this was like just when domain registrations came out I bought formulas, the number four you oh wow com, the most worthless domain anyone could ever own, when I could have probably bought internet.com Pretend to buy anything and I bought the most boneheaded stuff. You know.   Kevin King: Well, you remember the guy that he got in early he bought was at sex.com or something for, like you know, 10 bucks or whatever it cost to register it back then before there was a go daddy, yeah, and remember the fight like 20 years ago over that domain because it became like the most valuable domain on the entire Internet or something. Remember that huge fight about that.   Perry: It was. It was crazy, but I know there's been a bunch of those stories. Man, I've got some friends that really did well buying domain real estate early on. I bought a lot. I mean I've, over time, I still think domains are a bargain. I really do Most. For the most part, I own stuff like sewing.com and makeuptutorials.com and diyprojects.com. I still own some big stuff that we operate and I own a bunch of other big stuff that we don't operate and you know I'm buying after markets.   Now I bought conventions.com for a little over $400,000 two weeks before COVID Boy. That timing was extraordinary. You know what could go wrong. Conventions are impervious to depression and so anyway, yeah, so I started buying. You know I got a manufacturing and I immediately saw the benefit of online selling because you could cut out all the different layers of middlemen in the in between the consumer and the manufacturer. So I've been a manufacturer selling direct to consumer for a long time. And then I got. I got in business with Ryan Dice. After I got in a lot of trouble, almost went to jail in the supplement business scares me to death to this day. You know I lost everything I had, almost went to the clink, and when that all got settled out I went to business with Ryan Dice and we he turned me on really to the information selling world.   Kevin King: How'd you guys meet up? Was it at some events, or did you just meet up? Yeah, we met up.   Perry: Yeah, I'll tell you, the story is pretty funny story. So we met at a Yonix Silver event. We went to dinner with, you know, all these millionaires, you know in the room, the millionaire mastermind people, and we went to this big dinner and we had like 20 people at the dinner and when the check came it was like, well, I only had a salad, well, I only had the soup, and you know they're all dividing up checks and crap. And I'm like, come on and Ryan looked at me and I looked at him. He said do you just want to pay this bill and get the hell out of here? And I said, yeah, so we split the bill. And that's how we became friends, how we met. And then, you know, when I we knew each other through Yonix and then when I got in trouble in the supplement business, I mean, I had loads of friends when you're, when you're now and when you're when you're netting out half million dollars a month and you're flying all your friends on private jets, the Thomas and crap on the weekends, boy, you got lots of friends, you know. And as soon as the money ran out, well, guess what? The friends ran out. You know, you know everything was, you know. Nobody knew who I was. Then, you know, and Ryan called me and said hey, man, I got this business in Austin. It's doing a couple million dollars a year. If you'll come help me run it, I'll give you half of it. Oh, wow, and we did $9 million in the first seven months.   Kevin King: And that was a digital marketer. For those of you that don't know, that's correct.   Perry: Yeah, it was called touch tone publishing then, but eventually we rebranded it became digital marketer and then out of digital marketer came traffic and conversion summit and out of traffic and conversion summit came the war room mastermind and we ran all three of those for years. And digital we sold a TNC to a Claire and Blackstone Blackstone group about four years ago, I guess. Then I sold my interest in digital marketer to Ryan and Ryan, roland, richard about two years ago and then we dissolved war room about a year ago I guess they were going a different direction and and Kossim Islam and Jason Flylon I started driven mastermind so but yeah, it was a great, great run with. Those guys are super good, guys are super, super smart and we were business partners for 14 years long time. It's a long. That's a you know outlast a long time.   Kevin King: That's a long time in this business longer than all my marriages, almost divine, you know. So going just down. We'll talk about some of those in just a second, but just down that back what? What got you in trouble in the supplement business was it claims that you just didn't realize you couldn't be. Yeah, what was the it?   Perry: was kind of a combination. I was. I was legitimately a pharmaceutical manufacturer. We were an FDA pharmaceutical manufacturer. I got all the licensure and all that I got in trouble with the state had nothing to do with the federal. They called in federal, they called in DA, they called in everybody, like guys. Everything he's doing is correct. But the state took issue to some claims and what ended up happening? They realized that they had not. The thing is, once the state gets their tentacles into you and have your money, you know it's really hard to get rid of them, right? They're like a tick. But. But at the end of the day, the only thing that that that they actually that stuck was something called ways and measures. So that meant that my equipment wasn't precise enough to put the exact amount of product per bottle. So let's say it says it's two ounces right, mine might be 2.1 or 1.9 ounces right, and that's there's. There are state laws about that. They're called ways and measures laws. They're governed by the people who manage gas pumps, if you could believe it. But out of everything that they originally said that I was doing, they dropped everything else and that was the only thing that actually, at the end of the day, was it? But I had to settle it and they got all my money and all my stuff and left me three million dollars in debt. And when, when I went to Austin and we hustled hard, you know, for a couple of years, and I paid all that off, I didn't file bankruptcy on it and it was hilarious because I threw a Perry's broke party. Yeah, about two years in, when I got to zero, I got back to just broke. I wasn't three million dollars, right. I threw a giant Perry's broke party as maybe one of the most fun parties we've ever had. It was a little you're in.   Kevin King: Austin's, you do that out at Willie Nelson's ranch. Because, I was tapes, remember he did that when he got in trouble for seven million bucks and he did some sort of big ass fundraising party out. He has this like old ranch out West of Texas, west of Austin that's. It's got a studio lot on it, basically an old.   Perry: House. Then I just had it right over the house and we had a big pool party and, oh my Lord, so many drunk people. It was a lot of fun, it was good time, so I got a lot of friends at Austin and you'll talk digital marketer.   Kevin King: the conference from like. I think the first one's a few hundred people to what the? Now it's five, six thousand people, or yeah, we get the biggest internet for if you're an internet marketing, yeah, just in in general, it's not just Amazon, it's like across the board, it's the biggest one out there, I think.   Perry: Yeah, before the year before COVID, I think we had the biggest year was seventy two hundred. Oh wow, seventy two hundred, seventy eight hundred, I can't remember. They thought we were going to ten thousand the next year and they rented the Coliseum in San Diego instead of the hotels. And then, of course, covid yeah, and it was just a you know, two or three years we had sold just prior to that. So have we not have sold that first year of COVID? I think was probably around a five million dollar loss, but they had clear and had insurance for it, fortunately. So I don't think they. I don't. I don't know the exact damage, but I know it would have probably wiped us out and we've been because we had a refund. Tickets with In the venue would not have soft to hook and I was a big bunch of crap when it comes to running conferences.   Kevin King: I mean, I do my billion dollar solar summit. You do your events now, like you do. You've done the couple AI summits, you've done the Perry's weird event or whatever. You do quite a different things. You have the Whatever, whatever, whatever. You done like three of those which are fascinating. You do, you know, you have the driven mastermind and you're involved with digital market and our space. There's a ton of people it's almost gotten through Events for Amazon sellers, like everybody. Everybody in their dog wants to have an event and the vast majority of them suck. There's like seven people there they can't sell tickets that are losing their shirt. Very few of them actually make money. What is the key actually, if you want to do an event or you're thinking about that to actually making these things work, is it the long term play you gotta have? The upsell is at the.   Perry: Well, events, events are very, very much an uphill battle. That's the reason. When you go to sell one, they have a lot of value. If you go to, if you build an event to a thousand, two thousand people, it has a lot of value in the exit market because once an event hits a certain inflection point, they're insanely profitable. So you're so, like digital market, we lost money On TNC for probably the first four years that we did it. But the way we made up for it, we filmed all of the sessions and we sold them as individual products. So we built all of our. We had a thing that really made that thing magical, because every session had to be good enough to sell as a product. So it made the event itself, you know, great because you had to have executable do this, do this, do this, do this. It couldn't just be a fluffy talk, right. Every talk had to be good enough to sell as a product when Ryan and I were doing them. So for the first three or four years we didn't make hardly any money, but we generated a lot of product out of that. We sold throughout the year. So we, you know, we did make money a couple million dollars a year From the product sales and then over time, as the attendance goes up, the ticket prices tend to go up. You start at really low ticket prices and you ratchet ticket prices up as the event gets bigger and bigger, bigger, and you start taking on sponsors and we basically got to the point by the time that we sold. You don't really want to sell right, because the sponsors were paying for 80 90% of the cost to put on the event. Tickets were you then over a thousand dollars a ticket? We were selling 7000 tickets. You didn't really need to sell, you know, because you the event was paid for by the sponsors. The ticket sales money was just free money. And then whatever you do at the event, you know in sales is even more free money. But when you look at companies like Clary on the by these things, they don't care about the product creation, they don't care about selling at the event, they only care about tickets and they make a lot of money on hotel rooms. So they so in when, when they're promoting they got a lot of cash, so they'll buy all the hotel rooms in downtown San Diego a year before we, right before we, now we announced the dates, they buy all the rooms and then when you're buying your room from bookingcom or American Express or whatever, you're actually buying that ticket from Clary on, because Clary on in a lot of cases bought all the rooms in the city for $120 a night and then a year later you're paying 350 on AmEx and they just pay AmEx a commission, a 20% commission.   Kevin King: That's different than the way when I do like for a billion dollar so much in order to not have to pay you know, $3,000 to turn the Internet on in the ballroom, or to have to per day, or from not having to pay for the ballrooms or this or that. We have to do guarantees. Rather than buying the rooms up front, we have to guarantee that we're going to put 50 butts in the in these beds or whatever. If we don't, we get penalized, you know, yeah, right.   Perry: We did a little bit different model. Yeah, we did, we did too. You still have room blocks, you know, and the killer and the killer in the convention businesses contract negotiation and room blocks. You know, if you can get room blocks down, we did one recently at the ARIA and I didn't have a room block anywhere because the ARIA surrounded by like eight hotels within walking distance, so there's no reason to book a room block. Everybody could stay where they wanted within that complex and the room blocks Everybody could stay where they wanted within that complex. And then we got together and it didn't. It didn't create the problem, but you know they get you. Would they charge you more for F&B? So they, they're going to get you right. So I've got my own event center now I've got a 50 person event center. I think we're going to expand to 100 people and and I really prefer having smaller workshops anyway, they're they're more intimate, they're more effective and if you're going to sell something else to the attendees, the smaller the room, the higher your conversion rates will always be if you're offering something to the attendees.   Kevin King: That's true, yeah, so then you took it from there to the mastermind you did the war room for a long time and I know my buddies, Manny  and Guillermo, at Helium 10. They joined the war room about two years into working on helium 10. They said that was the number one life changing thing that they did.   Perry: They killed it to that.   Kevin King: I don't know the numbers, but I know it's. I see what he's spending and what he's doing, so I'm like it's some serious numbers. But they they attribute that to war room, because there was some. Y'all did one event and I think it was in Austin, actually around 2018 ish, and it was all about system. Whatever the talk was on that one, because they're quarterly, they were quarterly deals. I think it was all about systemizing and getting out your way and like cutting all the riffraff. I don't, but they said that was. It was game changing for them and made them tens of millions of dollars. So, but to join a war room was what 30 grand, I know driven was what you have now which I've been driven 30 grand.   Perry: Yeah, I've been to.   Kevin King: I've been to driven. I went to the one back in July which was excellent out in LA and and I love going to these. Those of you are listening. You know this is not an Amazon conference. A lot of us go to Amazon conferences, but I think the best conferences for me are actually the non Amazon conferences, because I go into something like a driven where there's yeah, there's a handful of Amazon people there, but there's also a bunch of Facebook people. There's also a bunch of domain people, there's SEO people, there's people that you know just have some sort of a shop in Baltimore that you know do internet marketing and you, you meet this range of people and for me it's brainstorming sessions. I'm uninterrupted. You know if I'm watching stuff online, even the recording of that, you know I got phone calls coming in, the dogs barking. You know wife's nagging, whatever it may be. You're interrupted. But you're sitting in a room from nine to five, obviously not in the room. You're sitting in a room From nine to five listening to people, these people talking a lot of it. You might already know, some of it may be new to you, but you're just in there. One guy says something, perry says something, and then Kazim says something, and then Jason says something, and whoever else the speaker says something, you start going. If I put all these things together and I can do this for my business, holy shit, this is freaking incredible. And so that's. These people look at me. And why the heck would I pay 25 or 30 grand to be in some sort of event? And if in the Amazon space, I personally wouldn't, because I'm going to be the one delivering most of the value in a lot of cases. And so why would I pay to join something? They should be paying me to come to it. But when you go to something where it's a cross section of people in the marketing world that all think like you but they do different things, I think that's the most valuable thing, would you? Would you agree?   Perry: I think honestly, I think in a good mastermind and that there's that good being in parenthesis and a good mastermind. I don't think you can lose money. I think it's almost impossible. I've made money in every mastermind I've ever been in you just, I like the idea of the diversity, right. I might learn something from a guy in the funeral industry that can be applied to somebody that's selling weight loss, right. You never know. And you know my benefit. I guess I've been around a long time, like you, kevin, I've been around the block a bunch and I've been fortunate enough to work with like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of businesses Pretty intimately in the, in the, the war room and now driven setting, and you know I get to see what's working and what's not working from like a 10,000 foot view inside all these businesses. So for me personally it's a great benefit that I get to learn something from really diverse. You know I learned the other day I was talking to a friend of mine, a client, that that they're in the, they sell online, that you book an appointment, you know they call you in, whatever, and they're in an industry that I have no interest in, no knowledge of, right. But they figured out that if they once somebody's booked an appointment, if they put a zoom, a live zoom, on the thank you page with somebody sitting there going hey, kevin, so glad you booked your appointment. By the way, jimmy can take you right now if you want, right. That one thing those, those people are coming in that way, or converting nine times higher than the people who book a normal sales call. And the beautiful thing now is.   Kevin King: You can do that with AI. There's tools with AI where you could actually, when they fill in that form I'm registered, I'm Kevin air dot AI and all that yeah, several and one that you could actually and you could put in you upload a spreadsheet or tie it into. You know, through an API to your, your cell system, that Jenny is available and it can actually, as I'm typing in, kevin King it's in the background recording a video with with Perry saying hey, hi, kevin, this is Perry. I glad you just signed up. Jenny's available right now. It's all automated and all like holy cow how to help her is just sitting around it and you know the conversions on that go through the roof.   Perry: Oh, they're nutty and but that's something I learned from a person who's in the like the the trauma they. They serve trauma psychiatrists, that's their market and I'm like I would never know that in a million years. Right, but but how many other businesses or clients of mine could that one tactic be applicable to? The answers? A lot, right, so you. So, when you go into those rooms where you know to be in driven, you got to be doing at least a million a year, but I think our average is around seven million a year gross and, and some you know up to, you know there's there's some hundred million dollar Folks and big players in there. There's some big players there, but you but nobody's stupid, right? You're in a room full of really, really smart people when they're basically telling you what they're doing. I joke about. I get paid for people to tell me. I get paid for really smart people to tell me what they're doing. That's really working and what I right, what a great gig I got right. But, yeah, we've been doing it for a really long time there. Those groups masterminds are hard to keep together and Keep happy and all that there because they are, because they're intimate, people share a lot of details and sometimes you have personality, kind of little things. This is crazy nutty stuff. That happens that you, the only problem with those things are just, they're a, they're a bit to, they're a bit to manage and you know that, as far as the 30 grand goes, or 50 grand, or 70. I know a lot of people charge. I know a buddy mine charge is 70,000 a year. You know we act like that's a lot of money but everybody's got an idiot on their payroll that there's a more than 30 grand to, I promise you. Everybody does. Everybody has a dodo on their payroll that they should have fired a long time ago but he brings the doughnuts or something and you don't farm that. Would you rather have that dodo licking stamps four hours a day or would you rather, you know, have access to some of the smartest people and your peers and you know really Really that? Keep you accountable, keep you on your toes and keep you up to date, because we do a call every week along with the meeting. So I I'm not pitching it down, I don't. This is sound like I'm hey, go buy my thing, but no matter what the industry you're in, get into a mastermind group. If you can, it'll one that you can afford.   Kevin King: You know ours is out of reach for most people because they're they're not because it's they can afford it, because they just don't meet the minimum sales, like you said, like you know, if you're at a one million and you said the average is around seven, you know, for 30 grand a year, all you need is one, one little idea, one thing, just you, just the ROI could be immense on just one thing.   Perry: I've heard a hundred times and I got all my value for the year within the first two hours. The first meeting yeah, you know, I've heard that so many times because this Kevin King gets up and talks and says something really smart and you go. Well, that was worth it, right, I got. I learned a thing that I didn't know and and, like you said, when you're doing, the beauty is the reason we don't take people that aren't doing a lot of money yet. It's hard to ROI. But if you're already doing let's say you're doing seven million a year and you get an idea that gives you a 5% bump, right, let's 350 grand, yeah for an idea. And you, you know, you're in for a year. You're in for 52 calls and four live meetings and Intensives and networks and private calls and all kinds of stuff. It's you know and I'm not saying for us, just for any man mind if you get a good mastermind, you can't lose money if you, if you have a good enough business already that you can ROI.   Kevin King: One of the things that you do that's really cool too is, like you said. You know, with digital market and I agree that you know you're recording it, turning it into content you do that now. Well, you'll do a Like that, the weird event you you straight up say, hey, come out to this thing. Yeah, it's gonna be a hundred of you here, but I'm recording this. I'm gonna turn this into a product. Yeah, you turn it into six products. You know, and I didn't with my billion dollar seller summit. I didn't used to record those, but now that's half the prop. That's where the actual the profit is. It's actually in recording it and then selling it to the people that didn't come. But one of the cool things that you do, like it driven and some of your other events your AI event you did this. I think you do it. Probably pretty much everyone I've ever been to is at the end you say get the kick the cameras out of the room, turn everything off. Let's grab a bottle of wine. You sit up with the stage. You might bring a couple other your partners or the couple other speakers and it's just two hours, three hours. They're just shooting the shit of Q&A and, yeah, stuff that comes out of that Alone pays for the entire event.   Perry: Yeah, the unplugged we've we've been doing unplugged forever because at the end of most events, you know, you still have unanswered questions and I don't want people to have unanswered questions. But also some people just don't want to talk about, they don't feel comfortable talking about the particulars of their business on camera. Yeah, so you know, if they because you know, sometimes a lot of my students are also Gurus, right, and you know how gurus are they don't want to tell you that. Well, they don't want to tell you that they're having a hard time making the lease payment on Because they're pretty ill, hurt their image, right, I talk about all of my screw ups and Almost going to jail and going broke and all it, because you know it's real, that's the real of people. But but a lot of the guru guy, well, I can't say that because it was just destroying my image. So I like doing unplugged sessions a lot of times because they people feel a little more comfortable talking about their challenges and Without feeling like it changes their position. And I think sometimes, just, you know, people don't want to ask their question on a microphone in front of a thousand people for fear of embarrassment. And what if my questions? A dumb question. So when you're just sitting down Slugging back a beer and you know chatting they feel more comfortable asking the questions. They probably should be asking it we I've done that as a policy for a really long time. We do wicked smart and we do unplugged, and those are the two. You know we always ask for the best idea in the room, and that that was a funny story.   Wicked smart was invented the first year that Ryan and I did Traffin conversion summit. We programmed three days worth of content for a three-day event and At 11 o'clock on the third day we were out. We'd have anything else to talk about. We actually we had miscalculated our time and we have anything else to talk about. So we went to lunch and we said man, we got to fill all afternoon. What are we gonna do? And and and I don't know if Ryan or I are together, I think we pretty much together we came up with the idea let's just challenge people to come up and tell us the smartest thing They've learned in the last six months and how it affected their business, and let's give whoever gives the best idea. And I think the first person that came up, ryan or I won Jeff Mulligan's, a good friend of ours and he's from as a former boss tonight lives in New Hampshire and he always says wicked smart, that's wicked smart, you know. And yeah, and the first person came up and they did their thing was whoo, that's wicked smart and that's stuck. And that's how wicked smart got started. But we never did unplugged. I used to do unplugged with Andy Jenkins at Stompernet years ago when I would. I used to go speak for them every now and then and one of the things that I did was really, really cool was called unplugged and we just Andy and I, would sit down on the edge of the stage. I don't, andy was brilliant. I don't know if you ever knew him or not. He was absolutely a really really brilliant guy and he and I would sit on the edge of the stage and talk to people for hours. You know it was a lot of fun. So I kind of picked that up from Andy.   Kevin King: Yeah, I do that at the billion dollar source. I'm not do a hat contest, so the last day, what well? I do two things. I incentivize the speakers to bring it, so I put a cash prize on the speakers. So, because I don't want them doing the same presentation they just did it three other conferences or same thing they talked about on podcast I want them to bring their a game, so I put a five thousand dollar cash prize on the first and twenty five hundred on second. It's voted on the last day. I'm ineligible. I always speak last, so I'm ineligible.   But all the other speakers that I invite after the last one spoke, everybody votes On who they thought was the best speaker, deliver the best value, and then that person gets five grand. So it's become like an honor to do that and then, as a result, everybody is bringing next level stuff that they normally wouldn't talk about. Because, and then I publish the list of the and you know, if there's 15 speakers I Public, I start at number 10. I don't show number 11 through 15. I want to embarrass somebody totally, but I start at number 10 and go backwards and announce them up like it's. You know, like it's a billboard top 100 or something, casey casem or whatever and it works really really well because Everybody's. If you're not in the top 10 of a speaker, you're like you know you didn't do so well, you didn't resonate, and then you're not coming back if you need a spelling of my name for the check. You've been involved in AI for like seven years before. It was the cool thing to do, I think probably six yeah, probably six years.   Perry: I got. I spoke on AI at the largest TNC, that one before COVID. I spoke on AI and showed Jarvis and Well said labs and a bunch of those before Anybody or anything, and and everybody in the room was just blown away by it and I feel certain they didn't do anything at all when the dog, you know. But I was using it for copywriting and we were building services For and like this AI bot that were it'll be after this Heirs, but but this AI bot, you know, we're really concentrating more on the business models that you can apply AI to. So the first AI bot summit was all about Opening people's minds up to it, so they understood what it was, understanding how to use the tools and and really just grasping this. One thought of If you had 10,000 really smart people willing to work for you 24 hours a day for free, what would you have them do? That's always my question, because with AI and a little bit of robotics, that's what you have. You have an unlimited amount of Robotic slaves to do your bidding right, whatever you want, and they don't take breaks and they don't break up with a boyfriend and they don't sue you for, you know, workplace compliance issues and all that stuff and, and you're gonna see, I think it's already happening. It's just people aren't exposed to it in mainstream yet, but Corporate is projecting like huge profits over the next few years as they Diminish the amount of workers, physical workers they haven't replaced with AI Elon Musk whether you like him or not, you know, cut the workforce at Twitter by 90% and arguably, the experience for the end user hasn't changed.   Kevin King: Yeah right, yeah, it's, it's your event back in just to tell a quick little story. Then we'll go into this. But your event back in April. You're showing some business uses. You know you're talking about the army of 10,000. You showed something about a. You know here's a building, the payroll of this building and use AI and the payroll goes from I don't know some crazy number of a million dollars a month to 86 dollars a month or what some exaggerate there.   Perry: It's the Empire State Building and the payroll. The daily payroll in the Empire State Building is about I I'm gonna paraphrase, I don't remember the numbers, but it's about a million dollars or more a day and the average worker output 750 words of text a day in white collar America. So if you translate that into the cost of open AI to generate the same 750 words, it's about 42 bucks, I think yeah, it's like you know it's it's in 42 I mean for all of them, not for one of all of you know 42 bucks or 92, but it wasn't much.   Kevin King: It was less than less than 200 dollars, I think, to generate the same amount of work product one of the things that you talked about there were newsletters and like how AI can automate a lot of newsletters and and I'm a I'm gonna disagree with you a little bit there on where you can actually have. I think at that time you may have changed your tune now I'm not sure. But you're like let AI do all the writing, do everything. You can just put these things on autopilot and I think that's definitely possible, but the quality sucks and for the most part, unless you're just assembling links. But if, but, but. What you said there actually about newsletters got me thinking. It's backed on that same thing we're talking about earlier bringing this all together. Here is where, about going to events. It's like you know what I used to run a newsletter in the late 90s and early 2000s that we that had 250,000 daily subscribers. We crushed it as using that as a lead magnet to sell memberships, to sell physical products, to sell everything. What, if you know? And this Amazon product space, everybody's always trying to build audiences and they're always like go build a Facebook group, go Create a blog post and you, as you know, the most valuable asset in any business as your customer list, your email list, your Custom list and be able to use that when you want, as you please. And you can't do that on social media. You have no control with algorithms on Facebook, you know, have no control over how many people see your LinkedIn post or or anything. But with an email list or a customer base database, you do. I was like, wait a second, what if we took newsletters and did this with physical products and actually to build audiences? So if I'm selling a dog products and I happen to have sustainable dog products, I'm like what if I build an audience? A dog, the dog markets half of America. That's too big. Well, if I niche that down to some people who ends dogs and sustainability, create a newsletter for them. I'm not trying to sell them anything. This is not a promotional email from my company saying, hey, look at our latest product, here's our new things. But it's more of a about the dogs, about dog training, dog tips, food tips, whatever. And then occasionally spreeking on some affiliate links To test things or you maybe even get a sponsorship. So make this thing self-sustaining and when you're ready to launch a product, you have an avid, rabid, loyal fan base to launch that product to as like this is the way to actually build things. So we I started looking into it Devoured everything you you showed about newsletters. You even set up a special tele I think it was telegram Newsletter channel, devoured everything in there. I went out, devoured everything in the newsletter space for three months, like everything is like. I already know this stuff, but I want to re educate myself on the latest tools, the latest strategies, and I just launched one In August, august 14th for the Amazon space. That's that I already have an audience there. Let me figure this out. Let me, like, figure out what are the best tools, the best systems, and then I can spread this to across multiple industries, multiple things, and that's what we're doing now and it's hugely Successful so far. And and AI is a part of that. But I'm not letting AI write it. AI is more of the, the creative side. It's how it it will rewrite something. If I'm trying to think of a headline, I'm like what's a better way to say X, y, z? I'll type in what's a better way, you know, to say we're ten ways that there are funny and catchy, in the tone of Perry Belcher, whatever it may be, to say this you know, give me all these cool ideas and then I mix and match, or sometimes it nails it, or I'll write a. I do a six you, you talked about this and one of your things the six second video, and so the beginning of every one of my newsletters is a six second, basic six second story. It's a personal story About me. It's something about me meeting Michael Jordan, spending a night with him in a sweet and Atlantic City the day before the night before he first retired, and you know it's crazy. Stories are about my divorce or about you know, so you're a naked girl on the balcony. I know it's, it's edgy, crazy story. But then I tie that back into the physical products and I'll use AI sometimes, maybe to help tweak that. Or if we got it some scientific document from Amazon about how the algorithm works, I'll use it to read the document, summarize it and then, you know, rewrite it with a human touch and add personality to it. So that's where using AI in other industries. I think it is brilliant. Most people aren't getting that right now. Most people just think of it as this is a threat to my job, this is a threat to you, this is the terminators coming to kill me and take over the world.   Perry: So what about? Everything's a conspiracy theory.   Kevin King: Yeah, I mean AI. I was just had just had a chat in August, so it's my father's 82nd birthday and I was sitting there for an hour explaining AI to you know, an 82 year old and a 79 year old in their mind was just, they're just was blown. They're like how do you know all this? This is, this is like science fiction movies or something, and like this is what you can do with it. And most people don't understand that. What are your thoughts on on AI right now and how people are misunderstanding or misusing and what are the best opportunities out there?   Perry: Well, circling back to your newsletter thing that the AI sucks for newsletters, it depends on the kind of newsletter you're writing.   Kevin King: That's what I said. If it's a link, newsletter or something, you can do it.   Perry: If it's a, if it's an aggregated or what you call a link newsletter, what I call a curated newsletter, they add as a really good job at writing basically a tweet and then linking to the article, and you do that like eight or nine times and you got a newsletter. But did you see the one?   Kevin King: the hustle, I think it's. They did a study. Like people are saying that. I don't know if you saw this from the hustle, but the hustle actually hired a guy, he went out and he did Let me see if I can fully automate a newsletter 100% AI so they had their programmers do some stuff and they put it out. It was about the nineties. So they would take today. You know, if today is, you know, April 6th, no, august 6th 2023, they would do August 6th 1993. What happened on that day? You know? Jurassic.   Perry: Park, the whole movie.   Kevin King: But the thing is it was repeating itself. The way it was writing was like all it was just you got to have, you got to have ins that.   Perry: Do a final review. I mean you got to have a human still, do a final review. Yeah, we've got a system. So Chad, my partner Chad, built a software system we're about to launch actually it's called Letterman and it we manage 18 newsletters a day through it and we do it with three outsourcers.   Kevin King: And the way that we do it is we hand out the we handpick what we're going to talk about.   Perry: So basically, we have a bunch of API feeds that tell us these are the stories that are trending about this subject today, and then our guys can go in and just hit, click, click, yes, yes, yes, no, yes, yes, no, delay, delay, delay. So maybe for a future issue, and then it's going to pull together those links and drop them into our software and then the software reads the article and then writes a like a tweet, that tells them to go, that compels them to go read this article. The call to action is compelling them to read the article. Right?   Kevin King: So that's SDO, then something really. It's a. Or is it a newsletter? It's a newsletter.   Perry: So this all goes into a newsletter and basically like, for instance, financials, a great example. The capitalists is ours and we want them to be able to get the gist of, like the Wall Street Journal and three thumbs swipes. And even though we're only writing, there might be 10 links in here. Right, we're writing like 140 characters on each link, compelling you to go click the link, and AI is writing that.   Kevin King: Okay.   Perry: And then they're going over and reading the actual article on the original source, right, okay, so so it's expanded.   Kevin King: It's an expanded judge report or something. It's exactly what it is.   Perry: It's not. It's not even kind of like it. It's exactly what it is Now the opposite. That's only really useful if you have a news worthy topic. Yeah. News or financial or something that's not for entertainment, financial entertainment, sports, politics things that change every single day. But if you're in the Amazon space, you got to think about it more like a, a magazine.   Kevin King: That's what I do, yeah.   Perry: So what we'll do there is find a feature article or three features. Three feature articles is even better. So we'll, let's say, for instance, my things on Amazon, and I'm talking about optimizing the perfect Amazon listing, right? I don't know whatever, but I'd go find three, the three best articles I could possibly find on that subject anywhere in the world, feed them into the AI, have them read all three and then write me a new article. And oftentimes the way we keep it interesting, we have characters, ghost writers created that right in the style of whomever right. So, but I mean really detailed. But one of the things that we found, Kevin, that's killing right now that you might find is our email list. I'm on a mission to get my email list to never send a promotion ever.   Kevin King: That's what I'm on to. I'm on to yeah.   Perry: So the way I do it is by sending out content, so like Perry might send out an email. You're doing it every day right now.   Kevin King: I get an email from you every day on copywriting Big, long email right. Yeah, big long. No, I save them. They're valuable. I mean, some of them go into my swap file.   Perry: It's a subtle.   Kevin King: It's a subtle like you're staying top of mind. You're doing it. Dan Kennedy does it right now and there's a couple others. He's doing that with Russell, but I and they're valuable. You can just read that and never do another thing. But it's you're staying top of mind and then you'll put in something OPS, remember the AI summits coming or whatever that stuff works.   Perry: But what's about to happen with those lists and we're doing another list right now is, once you open that thing about headline writing right, I can fire off a straight up promotion to you.   Kevin King: Yeah, you're segmenting based on what I click and what I do open and read Instantly.   Perry: So you're opening reading my article, right? So you just read my article about headlines and then the. Then you close that article down close that email. The next email in your queue is from me going hey, fibs, copywriting course is 50% off today. Great deal, and you're already so pre-framed to that. The open, the open rate on that second email is like 70 to 80%. Yeah, yeah, we're doing that.   Kevin King: We're going to do that in the product space, where we will watch what people click and if they're always looking on the docs and story, we'll start feeding them more docs. And there's a tool out there, there's a what. There's a tool that does this for the AMA right now, that that does newsletters, where it automated it watches everything and automatically get basically creates a personalized feed in a newsletter we want to Instagram.   Perry: We basically want to Instagram the newsletter business. So if you're only opening dots and stuff, then we want to deliver dots and stuff to you. If you're only delivering lip plumper articles, then we want to deliver a lip plumper off offers to you and and make the newsletter more lip related.   Kevin King: If that's your thing you're into in a makeup space, we're talking about it for newsletters, for you know Amazon sellers, but you can do this for physical products. You can do this for any industry and then leverage off of that. You see that they're always by clicking on the docs and ads. Then you start driving them to your print on demand docs and t-shirts, or you start driving them to Amazon to buy docs and bowls or whatever it's there's a guy that sells drones on Amazon.   Perry: You should have a drone newsletter. You know. You absolutely should have a drone newsletter. We say when, when Perry and I are talking about newsletters there's a big misconception in my mind.   Kevin King: Maybe you have a little bit different take on it, but so many people have what they call a newsletter. You go to their website you know the drone maker, sign up for our newsletter and the newsletter is nothing but a promotional email. It's like hey, we just announced two new parts. We just announced this to me. That's not a newsletter. That's a good one. That's not a newsletter.   Perry: That's a good one. You're not going to get deliverability on it either I mean a newsletter provides value.   Kevin King: It's like 95% value, 5% promotional. It's valued, something you want to get it to where people look forward to getting it, not, oh God dang. I just got another freaking email from drones. Or us Delete, delete, delete. They like I got to open this because they may have some cool tactic in there on how to fly my drone, you know, or in heavy winds, or whatever. Whatever it may be. That's where you got to be thinking when you're doing this, and AI is a great tool. And I always remember something you said when just as a quick aside here, it's a quote I often re-quote you on this and credit to you but you always said, when it comes to selling products on Amazon, people don't buy products on Amazon. They buy photos, absolutely, and so can you talk about just for the Amazon people.   Perry: Nobody can buy a picture. Nobody can buy anything on the internet. It's impossible. All you can do is buy a picture or something that's. Or if you're writing copy, you're creating a mental picture of a thing, right? So yeah, I'm a big believer in product photography being a giant piece of what you do and making something that's demonstrable. If you can actually show how it works in a 30 second video clip, I think that's different than anything. You know that works more powerfully than anything, because you've got to, and design I think you're seeing now is becoming more and more important the quality of your design, because we don't have any way to trust companies, right? You don't really have a way. It used to be the old Dan Kennedy world and Dan at the time was right. You know, ugly sells and pretty doesn't, right? The truth is today, pretty outsells ugly, and that's just. We've proved it eight times, eight times over. Pretty outsells ugly, and especially if you're selling a physical good, right? So don't skimp on the amount of money you spend on photography and photo editing and all those things. I was in was in Kevin interesting thing I was in Guangzhou, China, and I went to this illustration company. They do illustrations, you know. Have you been to? You've been to Yiwu before? Yeah, I've been able. Ok, so you know, upstairs in Yiwu, like on the fourth and fifth floor, it's all service companies, web companies, and I found a company up there and they were doing watches so they would take a watch. You can't take a good enough photograph of a watch for that photograph to actually work in a magazine. It's an impossibility. So what they do is they take a picture of the watch and they pull it into an illustration computer and then there's a program just for jewelry that has all of these textures and paint brushes and all that and they actually build the watch on top of the photo. They build an illustration of the watch and if you ever pick up a magazine and really look at, get a magnifying glass and look at the picture of the Rolex on the back right, you can see where there's an illustration piece cut here or there. You don't see any of the photo. They completely overlay it. But sometimes it takes these guys two weeks to set on illustrator and replace every little pixel dot. Everything is a vector and then they send that off and that.   Kevin King: But now AI can do a lot of that.   Perry: Yeah, I don't know how much I would trust it to do that, but yeah, it probably can. It can certainly enhance the photos a lot. You're seeing AI photo enhancement become a really big deal. Have you seen that thing that takes? I mentioned it at AIBotson. I'm trying to think of the name of it now Topaz.   Kevin King: Yeah.   Perry: Topazai. Well, you can take your old video footage and it'll turn it into 4K footage. It looks pretty doggone good. I mean, you take an old piece of footage that you shot 10 years ago and you run it through there and it'll give you a whole face lift and make it really appear to be a 4K footage.   Kevin King: Yeah, as Remini does that for photos, you can have some old photo or even something you downloaded, some stock image you downloaded online. It's kind of low res because they want you to go pay for the high res. Just download the low res, run it through Remini and it'll upscale it. And upscaleio is another one. There's a bunch of them and some of it's like holy cow. This is amazing stuff.   Perry: Another year from now, probably most of the things that we're using services for now will be you know you don't have to. We're making a lot of money right now in the Philippines by our outsource company uses AI to do things for people. So if you wanted an illustration of a product or whatever, you could send it to man. We're going to charge X for that, but we're actually going to use tools that cut our labor time down by 80, 90%. We haven't got it to where we can cut it all the way out yet and we still hire art directors. You know, really, but it allows you to, instead of hiring 30 B minus designers and you know an art director, you use AI and you get three or three or so, three or four really high level art directors and you don't need all the carpenters anymore. Right, and if you've seen the way they're building houses now, with the brick laying machines and all that all the carpenters, all the framers that won't be a profession in another 24 months.   Kevin King: Well, that's the scare I think that general public has when it comes to AI is like, well, it's going to take my job and so I don't want that, but look what happened in the industrial revolution, look what happened when the wheel wasn't been it. People will adapt and if you don't adapt, you're going to get left behind. And I think right now, one of the biggest skills if you're listening to this and you're, you know, in high school or college or you're young and still trying to figure you need to learn how to do prompting Prompting. I think good prompting versus okay prompting can make a world of difference with AI. As this gets more sophisticated, being good at prompting is going to be a major skill set that's high in demand. Would you agree with that?   0:55:51 - Perry: I think so. It's funny though, you know. Now you can go to open AI and say write me a mid-journey prompt. Yeah you know this and use this camera lens and this but you don't want the camera lens.   Kevin King: That's where photographers and artists right now are.   Perry: You kind of don't. You can actually have open AI right the mid-journey prompt for you. It's crazy and a lot of people are doing that and I think that's. I think prompting is going to become easier and easier, but it's still going to require imagination.   Kevin King: You know.   Perry: No, no artificial intelligence engines ever going to be able to replace imagination. You know it's not going to happen. So I think that we're we're we're fine for, you know, a good long while. I don't see it being a problem, but there's good money to be made right now with just arbitrage. You know how it is, kevin. You've been around this business long enough. When, anytime, a market is inefficient, that's when all the money's made, right, and right now you got people who need things done. Nobody wants to work, right? So you know AI is just filling the slot perfectly, so we can offer services. Now that used to be. You know, like. We'll do unlimited video editing for $2,000 a month, right? Well, we're doing 90% of that video editing with AI. If we were doing it by hand, we'd have searched $10,000 a month, right, and the end of the day, the customer doesn't care. The customer's getting the desired product delivered within a timeline. They don't really care if you did it yourself or if a robot did it. And if they do care, well, it's probably not your kind of customer, right? So all the stuff that you guys go through of writing product descriptions and all your SEO, your keyword loading and your product photo enhancement and all the stuff that you do, I'd say within a year, probably. Right now, if you're studious you can do 90% of it?   Kevin King: Yeah, you can, but within a year. I mean, it's been a big thing. I just was in another mastermind with a big Chinese seller. He does $50 million a year or something. He's based in China and sells into the US and he said that AI has been a leveling ground for the Chinese sellers.   Perry: Yeah, of course.   Kevin King: Because now they used to, you'd have all that broken English and stuff on listings or they couldn't understand the culture to write it in the right way. And he said with AI, that advantage is gone for Westerners, so you got to step up your game and now it's in. Still, you have an advantage in branding or innovation or some other areas, but it's leveling the playing field for a lot of people.   Perry: Yeah, we found it. We found with Mid Journey packaging design.   Kevin King: Yeah.   Perry: It's been. Packaging design mockups have been amazing. We've come up with some really great packaging ideas that we wouldn't have come up with and for the most part you can send those over to your factories in China and get a reasonable.   Kevin King: When people are doing that for product. Now they'll come up with a product idea like, hey, I want to make a I don't know a new dog bowl. You'll have the AI create. You know, they'll give it some parameters. It needs to be this, it needs to be slow the dog down from eating or not slip on the floor, whatever Right and have the AI create a hundred different models of it. Just boom, boom, boom. Use 3D illustrations, put that into a tool like PickFu, let people vote on it and then, you know, have the top couple. You know, go to molding and make prototypes and then do some additional testing. You couldn't do that. That's just what you can do. Now is just some of the times, sometimes almost mind boggling.   Perry: And robotics have really taken down molding costs.   Kevin King: Yeah.   Perry: Back when you and I started, you know I want to custom mold for this. Well, it'll be $100,000. Now you know, six grand you know, whatever it lasts, you know, depending on what you're molding, but it's crazy how cheap molding costs have gotten.   Kevin King: So we're almost out of time here. Actually we've gone over, but just real quick before we wrap up. What are? What would you say are three things out there that you're seeing right now that either hot opportunities that people need to be paying attention to, or three big, or maybe even three big mistakes that people are making when it comes to trying to sell physical products to people.  

Transcript: All right, welcome to this week's edition of the 10x business owners mastermind group call John Pyron. Your host, the business doctor, and this is the third Monday of the month. So we're talking about operations and service delivery. And prior to starting call me and the group of people that are on here live, when we're talking about networking groups, specifically the tip, which is very similar to BNI, and specifically about this guy on the East Coast, that really has nailed down a mentoring process. And so it fits right into our topic today, because there's 212 chapters nationwide, almost 5000 members, and this guy has seemed to crack the code in attracting people giving them to a meeting and converting them into new members. And it's a process, it is a system. And so when you look at business processes, usually when you're first starting out in business, you just want to survive, you want to create money, and, and you don't care how much out how many hours it takes to do it, you want to create money and and that is your number one goal is to survive. Once you've gotten your income needs, that could vary to be $60,000 a year, it could be $150,000 a year, it's whatever that business owner has decided this is the income that I need to have to where I never have to go back to work for someone else. That's usually the first milestone. The next step is operations and service delivery. It's okay now that I know how to create money now that I know how to market my business now that I know how to generate leads and convert those leads. I have proven to myself that if I get a lead, I can walk them through a process and get them to give me money no matter what type of business you have. Okay. gratulations if that's you, because you have figured out the number one problem that most business owners have, the number one reason that 85% of all small businesses fail in the first five years is they can't figure that piece out. And they run through their savings. They run through the money. I have a guy that we're closing escrow on the sale of his business this Friday. He started this business in June of last year, took us two mines hired me to help them start the business been working with him ever since. And but he didn't he didn't want to he only wanted me to help him in sales. They want to help me, let me help him in any other area of the business. Which he's now looking back and going that was a huge mistake. Because he invested well over $250,000 and we're finalizing the sale on that business for $150,000 This week, because the wife said I'm retiring. Moving on going now. Now, he's hired me to sell it in some getting into the melon, oh man, you know, this is this right here, this right here, this right here, this right here, this right here really needed to be fixed and done correctly. This is well over $55,000 a month. But by the because of the inefficiencies of his processes of his systems. The net profit on that is extremely low. And so there's some things that you'll want to as you grow your business to remember that some day unless your whole goal and there's and I want to preface what I'm about to say there is nothing wrong with being a sole proprietor, a solo entrepreneur for the rest of your life. Okay, just just so I'm clear, okay. Challenges if something happens to you. The music stops Okay, so I have a very dear friend of mine, I'm not going to get into the name in but he has been in very high level ICT D for many, many years. I personally mentored him and coached him as a salesperson when I used to train salespeople. I turned into him into a badass sales engineer. Okay, he worked for an IT comp it managed service company. He was an engineer. He wanted to learn sales because you can either make money fixing computers or you can not only fix computers, but you can make even more money If you know how to sell, so I taught him how to sell, which ultimately made him number one in the company, which ultimately led Cisco to come and completely recruited his butt away. And then ultimately, Salesforce. But I kept telling him along the way, you need to get all this stuff out of your head, as to what you do when you give a lead, what you do, how you contact them, what you do, when you set the appointment, how you set the appointment, what you say, what the process that prospect goes through, to ultimately say yes, and the easiest way, if you have been in business, is to go back and look at the last 10 to 15 customers that you have, that you would like that you want more of, and reverse engineer from right now all the way to the back to the point where they they discovered who you are. Okay. And it's gonna leave a fingerprint. This is this works. This is like the number one strategy for real estate and mortgage is you have a buyer fingerprint. So an example would be if I got a lead, somebody wants to buy a home, somebody wants to sell a home, somebody wants to get a mortgage. My very first question, if I'm a realtor is tell me about the last home you bought. Tell me about the home that you bought. I mean, you're in a four bedroom, two and a half bath house two stories on a half an acre lot. Tell me about that process? What made you buy this home? What did you like about that home? You know, and I'm going to have them explain to me exactly what the process they went through to buy that home, because they're going to tell me exactly how to sell to them. Okay, how to walk them through the process, because they are have already been through that process, they obviously liked the process because they bought same thing with it. Same thing with the handyman, is you go back and you look at all your clients you've ever had, and reverse engineer the process. And the nice thing is, is if you just take this one little system, this little system will make you a ton of money. Okay, because every single time you get a client, you just reverse engineer that process. And you're gonna find that as you grow as you change over time, your process and your system is going to get tighter and tighter and more converting. The more you do this, is once you have the code once you know what the code is. So okay, how many people can I add to this, I was talking to my counterpart, Nancy, who by the way, is volunteered to be a guest on next week's call. And I'm going, I trained her to go from being real estate attorney to business consulting. And so next week, and in very specific niche, like she is a genius when it comes to operations systems. But more importantly, now that I'm the business owner, now that I actually have money, how do I maximize that money? And how do I keep that money. So she's going to do a whole training on business finance. So you definitely don't want to miss that. Definitely listen to the recording, but it's a process and it's a system. And so every single thing that you do in your business, always be thinking if I get hit by a bus, I get hit by a bus. If I went away for three weeks, if I went to Vacation for three weeks, you know, is it what aspects of my business has to run without me? Otherwise, if you stop the music stops, right? So personal story that I'm opening up for live q&a, as I've been on the hunt, specifically for one or two business partners, not employees, business partners. I've had three very actually 1234 Very successful partnerships. And so I'm like, why am I going to reinvent the wheel I can I can implement this funnel. It's on my wall here by myself, me myself and I with some employees and subcontractors, and at the end of the day own 100% of it. And I've been totally fine. What I found for me personally, is that's been on that wall for two since prior to COVID. Okay, and And I was already going down the road of implementing it COVID Hit and I'm like, I don't need the I really don't need to implement. But I am well, fully were aware of this. If I leave this house, something happens to me, all the music stops. Okay. And to me, that's unacceptable. This is the first business I've ever had in the last 25 years that completely depends on me. And so I'm like, You know what? Preston's back in school kids are back in school, that to foreign exchange students, they're back in school. Now's the time. So when found two business partners, I've been talking to him for a while we're forming a new company this week. And we're gonna build that funnel. By the time that funnel is said and done to me about 25 to 50, coaches, and consultants in all different disciplines where nothing depends on me or any of the other partners. The reason I'm bringing on partners, and here's the system, by the way, I will bust my ass a whole lot more. Okay, and do things that I really don't want to do, if I have a good solid business partner that I have respect for. Okay, the only other flip side is if I go out and hire a W two employee that will put a fire undermined by as well. But I would rather do it with a business partner. Because Adrian has incredible digital marketing skills. Chris is the other partner he's as incredible operational skills and getting things done. The three of us combined the Dream Team, when it comes to this type of consulting business. In the real estate business, right, there's a couple of ways you can do it. There is a you can duplicate yourself through other agents, if you're relatively nice is going to start your own brokerage. And so you can recruit other agents, you can also go and maybe become an exp realtor, build your own group, Kevin and Michael work together. So you can go and find another mortgage person, there's so many different ways that you could partner and, and really leverage each other. Right. And so I'm just one of those systems that I've used for years is divvying up the work responsibility. So that way, a year from now, which alone is going to probably only going to take six months to a year to have the business in such a way where if I am gone for three weeks, one, or both of my business partners who show up to this call, and rocket, like you guys will get a tremendous amount of value out of both of those guys, because they're both serial entrepreneurs, and they're both very successful at what they do. Okay. And so that's my, my two cents for today, as far as operations and systems is look at, okay, what is the next thing that needs to be duplicated in your business that will give you the most leverage and increase in revenue without you actually having to do all the work? Okay. So with that said, Any questions, comments, suggestions about what we've talked about? Or do you have something specific nonrelated? Go ahead, Josiah, do you want to talk about today? Hey, yes, just I have no more handyman of the group here. And I was just thinking about the the ways for myself specifically, to get ahead, in that respect of what you were just talking about. In my mind, I would either need to train someone, like my partner who I can do some like medium sized projects with how to do my quotes, because I have a specific way that I run everything from, you know, what I've found in my district to, you know, the not just the sales tax here, but my overhead and what I need to, you know, accomplish and Loomis and then the discounts that I can offer to my clients for multiple kinds of projects. So there's a lot that kind of goes in, you know, like you would know, like, you know, you know, building any business when you're starting from the beginning, how do I maybe not feel like I'm just kind of starting from scratch trying to get someone else up to date on everything that I've had to learn, so that, you know, I can maybe have them, put in some quotes and schedule them out and maybe I go on vacation for, you know, a week or something like that is there. Yes. Great question. So, if you pull this straight out of McCalla Watts his book called clockwork especially The big one, the one that just got revised. In that as a handyman, I would be investing in like a GoPro. Okay? And part of the agreement that you have a customer sign before you start work is releasing, you know, giving you authorization to use that GoPro when doing your work for them. Okay, now obviously, you want to wipe out any personally identifying parts of that video, right? So getting a good solid video person is gonna be key. But now all of a sudden you you're able to train, you're able to video you doing the actual work and walking people through, you know, walking yourself through the process, you're basically creating a training module, if you will for your company. So that's one thing. The other thing is using an app like otter, right, OTT II are using an app called Brain toss. And then having a Zoom account. Now, unless it's going to be longer than 40 minutes, a free Zoom account will suffice. And so when you're sitting down to do your estimates, you're sharing your screen. And with yourself, you're hitting a record, and you're walking through the process of doing an estimate. You're walking through the process of doing a quote, okay, it'd be a big pain in the beginning. But once you get the process down, you're done. Next process done. Next process done, there's only so many processes or systems that you're going to need. Put it in a Google Drive folder categorized in the four key areas of business marketing, sales, operations, service delivery, admin, and finance, start dropping that content in there. Don't worry about editing that, right. The only thing that you really need to edit is going to be the GoPro video stuff that you do. Okay, so now down the road, when you do want to bring on an apprentice. You already have all that stuff done. Okay. The flip side, okay, and there's there's actually a really solid book out there written by David Ginny's called system ology. So a whole culture that got released last year. Because Michael Gerber is his mentor, and the E Myth is really geared towards an established business. It's been around for a while. system, ology takes it from startup, like brand new. I just started my business just got my business license, to the point of being completely independent of your business, or your business, being completely independent of you is worksheets and all that stuff in there. But really, if I was there, give you a revert night, a lot of everybody on here, except for maybe Jack is old enough to remember, let me give you the Reader's Digest version. Right. And that is, well, maybe Michael is not old enough. Hey, I still had those. I know what those are. Yeah, back in the day, it was the Reader's Digest version of, of the book. And that is document as you go, especially when you're in startup mode. Because one day, you're gonna want to have somebody do that. And the thing that the number one problem that gets in the way of an a solo entrepreneur hiring somebody is there, they usually don't hire until they're completely maxed out. Until they're working 5060 hours a week, and then just the thought of bringing on somebody becomes a few let me get this straight, dude. Do I have a root canal today? Or do I have open heart surgery? I mean, either one sounds good. But I'm kind of stuck now. Right? Don't wait. Right? Do it now. Get your processes and systems done now one of the time. And when you do go to hire somebody, it's not this big pain in the butt. That you think oh my god, I have to take out now how am I going to do all the work and keep the business going and make the money and now I'm responsible for an employee and I gotta take my time to train them. And I already work 65 hours a week, 70 hours a week. I might as well just do it myself because nobody can do it better than me. Right? That's the big trap. So that would be my answer as their seniors. Okay, different things that you want to implement. And before anything else on that one before we want to jack Thank you, Jack. Song along the lines that I did a big project. This is kind of Not this is one I raise my hand for. But that's funny. So I did a project I had probably a dozen people have a mother in law's house yesterday. So my dad owns a property. So I grew up pretty handy. I didn't need to do a lot of housework. So I divvied up people based on their skill level and what they could do. And so I tried to put people unfortunately, what I knew I can fix too. So if I had someone who wasn't skilled enough, they could do most of the way, right, it wasn't so wrong, that I can fix something. So I went and redid the whole basement floor over the day and a half. So, which was a lot of fun to do actually enjoyed that project. And then, you know, I see like some little small things that are missed upstairs. I'm like, You know what, that's what I get, you know, they're good enough. And I could, I tried to not beat him up. Why did you put the dropcloth down? No, I just kind of go the other way and say, Hey, listen, this might help you next time. So I have some of these things. So try not to beat up people on projects. And one thing I was also taught, was never be afraid to teach someone to become better than you at something. And you might show someone something. And they're like, like I like I'm really good with spackle. But there's this one guy I met who was almost a surgeon, and I was doing liquidation. And we had to do, we had to repair the whole building this is in. This is going back 10 years. And I want to say we were in Hamilton or something. And we had to patch every single hole in the wall. And I showed this guy a little bit of what I was doing. He was a machine, he was perfect. He's about four feet tall. So he needed a ladder. But he was absolutely great with everything he did. The other so mad enough, though, and actually thought this is interesting, because I've been listening to this recently to is when you're talking about also the people that you're able to work with, with these processes. What's important is Respect, respect and trust. It's not just that you like someone, when it comes to professional, you don't want to not like someone but respect and trust and to be a much more fundamental and higher on the list of priorities than whether or not you'd like someone, are they able to do the job without it becoming a problem is the system in place, you know, maybe maybe they are too sarcastic for you, but you don't care, they get the job done. But respect and trust is really important when it comes to systems. Do you trust that they can go through this system? And I do actually no, you said E Myth might be a little advanced. But I do think about the E Myth all the time about am I doing something that can be replicated to so if I find something that works really well. Even the other day I do with literally everything, whether it be work personal life, if I'm doing something more than one time, I'm gonna look at can I improve this every single time I put down a floor and I was trying to see is there a better way to get these tiles in place than what I was doing and continue to improve on the process? Even for something I've done before? Is there a new tool? Is there something that makes my life easier? Both ways? I just look at that every way. And I think as I just talked about, I think I actually got this from as a kid playing video games. Because you know, when you couldn't save a video game, you had to figure how to finish it. So you have to figure out which pattern you things you can do. So I do still know readers that I just grew up with a basic Nintendo at least. Not quite Atari. I know what it is. But I didn't have one. It wasn't the newest, newest, greatest thing. But that was my two cents. Trust. Weird transition age, I kind of had a typewriter too, when I was a kid, and then, you know, obviously that went away very quickly. Yeah. Any anybody else have anything they would like to go over today? How's everybody's business plans going? Okay, me actually questions that you can ask yourself is ask yourself this, are you on track with the action items in your plan for this month. Remember, action items in the one page plan or monthly strategies or quarterly objectives or annual mission very rarely changes. It's just what you do. Vision gets updated every year. Because it's a three to five year vision or 10 year vision. Even if it was a 10 year vision, like I have a client that's been able four and a half years together now they've hit every single objective they've ever set. Because every week I hold them accountable to their action items and their plan. Every quarter we adjust their strategies. Every year we adjust your objectives. They've gotten so confident now that they set a tenure objective for 102 employees and multiple locations. So you can see that far out well. Every year. It goes from a tenure plan to an nine year plan to an eight year plan to you know, so forth. Once it gets down to a five year that we reset and we add backup five more years. So the question comes down to I'll ask you guys the same question I asked every single one of my one on one clients is number one, are you still committed to your vision statement? And the answer is yes. or it's no. Now. Most of the time they say yes. So my next question to them is okay. Are you on track with completing your action plans? And your one page plan this month? Well, no, I'm not. Okay. So let me go back and ask the question, when are you 100% committed to your vision statement? Yes, then two things, one or two things has to happen. Either that vision statement has to change and lower itself to match your activity. Or your activity has to rise to a different level to match your vision. But and I tell him this, when I'm in a one on one situation with him, I go, I don't want my job is to prevent you from lying to yourself. Okay, so if you can't get your activity have to match your vision statement that we need to lower the vision statement to match your activity. Okay, so how about this? How about we just draw a line in the sand today and call it a clean slate and between Now in our next meeting next week, you get your activity up to match what you say you want. Okay, and so when in a one on one setting, that's what I do now. The reason I'm sharing this with you is, take a look at each one of you over this next week. Take a look at your one page plans. Next Monday is our final meeting of the month before we go into September. So now's a good time to get your plan updated and come prepared next Tuesday. To ask questions you are more than welcome to ask any question you want on this call about your one page plan and get mastermind you know, information from multiple people on this call about your plan. Right that's the advantage that you guys have over what my own one on one clients don't have. Okay, so go for Jack. So one question while I'm working my plan and continue to find that I was wondering what would you say if you want to if I want to keep reaching for bigger and higher clients, so bigger size clients? What are some ways that you can because I heard an interesting thing recently that a client had a one of his clients made up 50% of his business when he first signed him up that this point that guy same client only makes up 5% So keep searching for for Wales because the situation of ours is hard to reverse engineer or the owner ran into when the craps table decade plus ago. And they had 12 people now that just blew up. So it's hard to replicate that one unless I have a gambling problem. But for other ones trying to find larger clients how do you keep looking and searching and keep trying to jump up to the next level? So I'm going to open up a whiteboard here. And while it's opening I am going to and actually this applies Yeah, this would apply to everybody here. So hold on just a second here. So in your case we're talking now actually probably your level let's just say 10 to 50 users will be considered small business. And this is relative to everybody. Okay. This would be this in your case is going to be we're still sticking to what Microsoft's definition is going to be this right here like this whole whiteboard thing All right, anyways, you get the gist? All right, then we're talking, let's get up here. This is going to be large, which is going to be 250. Plus. The difference here is this small business. That was a quick, fast sale cycle. Okay? So in the real estate business as long as I can get somebody qualified, if I'm bernisa, and I find somebody a mate, that's a renter, my conversation is going to be like, Hey, how would you like to actually own your own home at some point? Oh, yeah, we just don't, most people don't even know how to even do that. Right? Or they don't think they qualify, or, you know, something's happened. It's like, you know, I've only connected with Michael or Kevin, hey, there were friends of mine during the mortgage business, let me just have you meet with them, and have them get you pre qualified, once they get you pre qualified that we can talk about your buying, but it might take a year for you to get pre qualified, I don't know. There might go to guys, right. And, and that can happen like that. Once you get to pre qualifying now I'm going to go and sell them a home. Because there are first time homebuyer and they're probably not going to go after a 500,700 50,000 $1 million home. Okay, the larger the deal, the longer the sales cycle. But in the meantime, I gotta pay bills. Okay, so if I'm trying to pay bills, and I'm in the mortgage industry, or the real estate industry, in the IT industry, I'm going after the smallest client, I can find the smallest job I can find some cash in right now. So the small business owner tend to fit to users, there's a ton of them. I like that space, just simply because they're too big to not have an IT person, they're too small to hire an IT person, they are outsourcing to a competitor. So in your case, Jack, I'm going to leverage all the information you didn't learn about business on this mastermind call or any other call and your whole focus is okay, Mr. Small business owner, what's your biggest problem that you have? How can I solve that problem so I can earn the right to talk to you about your it because I guarantee your current IT company ain't talking to you about how to build your business. Okay. So that's a shorter sales cycle, I could meet somebody today, I could have been on site meeting with them and their office manager tomorrow, I can have them signed up on a managed service agreement by this Friday. Okay, just boom, boom, medium sized company, typically going to have a CFO, typically going to have an office manager, typically going to have maybe a part time person or definitely a long term relationship with an IP company. Between that 51 and 100. user space, definitely going to have an IT company, once it gets 75 users and above, probably going to hire somebody internally that has screwed up their network to a point where it cannot operate without that individual, and he knows it or she knows it. And they think it's job protection. Okay. So those setup sales cycles could take anywhere from two weeks to six months. Okay? The large enterprise space in the payoffs bigger when it happens, right? The large enterprise space could take anywhere from six months to two years. Okay, so when I'm building an IT company, or consulting anybody in the IT space, I'm drawing this pyramid out, and we're setting goals on how we're going to go after all of this at the same time. This thing, I'm gonna send this to Jack, it should be a part of the recording. But I used to have this diagram on my wall. When I owned it companies, I knew exactly how many prospects and clients I had in small business space and medium business space, a large business space. The reason I built this like this jack, is on September 18 2008, Lehman Brothers announced that they're going bankrupt. Okay. One year prior September of 2007. I converted every single client from break fix to a managed service flat rate service agreement. Bunch of people in these different areas so when the economy collapsed the following year, I kicked me Karl politic kicked everybody's ass in this town. Right? And it's not. Now we just did is we converted our businesses to to protect the downside. So if I'm a handyman, right, I I'm going to have a ton of, you know, small jobs. Okay. I'm going to have a ton of small homeowners who give me little small jobs here and there. Okay, my medium size clients. I'm gonna start targeting more professional class homeowners. Okay? husband works. wife works. Both busy. Both make a shit ton of money, right? They don't want to be doing their own lawn on a Saturday. Okay? Because I'm a handyman. Well, well, your handyman, you're not a lawn guy. I know. But I'm a handyman. I'm your property management company. Okay, without you having to hire a property management company. You let me worry about how the lawn gets molded. You let me worry about how the pool gets cleaned up. Let me worry about how the HVAC gets maintained. I'm basically switching my hat from being the handyman doing the actual work to being the project manager and Property Management dude. Having my vendors in there doing all the damn work. Okay. And okay, clarify your grades ticket now. Go ahead. So, how do I get paid to organize that? I am charging a fee for that. So what I'm doing with a medium sized client like that, and then what then again, in your space, medium sized client, husband and wife work? Both professionals both make a boatload of money. Okay, both can pay me. Okay. So I'm going to come up with a package that basically says, Hey, any one or to our job, aside from materials cost, okay. Any one to two hour job? At least twice a month. I will just come in and do. Okay? Because you're going to be on my quarterly bi annual yearly subscription. Okay, now, this is advanced ship because no handyman does this stuff. Okay. But I'm going to create a package that says, Hey, pay me 250 bucks a month. And I'm, I'm your property manager. Okay, any little minor jobs that are one to two hours, I'll just take care of right now. Any blonde stuff, any things like that? I'm not doing the work. But I'm going to coordinate the vendor to do the work and make sure they do the good job. Now, I'm just throwing out numbers here. This is not this is something you're going to want to look at and go okay, is it 250 bucks a month is a tuner $95 a month. You know, if I have a husband and wife, and they're both combined total income, probably $150,000 a year, divide that by 2000. At each hour of their time is were $72 An hour 72 point 12 times four hours a month is $288. Okay, $280 is how much time they're gonna spend trying to find somebody to do something that you already have a network of people that know how to do it. You see, I'm saying? So I'm gonna get myself into a reoccurring revenue model. And, I mean, I did this with a carpet cleaning did, I did this with scrap monkey, I did this with who was that client? Epic, he has a handyman, and he does pressure washing. Okay. And so we created these packages, that once somebody does a job with you once, all you got to do is have a conversation with them and go, Hey, you're probably going to have other stuff that breaks or other stuff that needs to be done. Do you really want to take your time and go and find the right person and vet them and make sure they're licensed? No, I liked the plan. I just it sounds also like, it has a lot more steps that may include doing something like you know, trying to build a plan like that or trying to you know, sell a package like that to someone like I work with, you know, property management companies, and I'm thinking they might be a particular side of the medium size type projects, especially since I get paid, at least like two weeks out from them usually. So now I think that's a great plan now but just someone thinking that I'm doing all of this by myself. Like when I mean, I guess I imagine you with these plans, you have to just build a plan that works to do it step by step, you know, to eat that elephant one bite at a time, right? Yeah. So, you know, once you do the math on this, it's like, let's just say that, let's just say it's 295 bucks, right? States $295, you know, a month, or if you pay the whole year in advance, I'll give you two months for free. So 2950, okay. And depending on the homeowner, not, it's not going to be a problem. Okay, but let's just say it's 295. And you get 10 of those people, that's 29 $150 a month, I can realistically hire a subcontract stay at home mom to coordinate everything, for a third of that cost. And so I'm no longer even having to do that shit. So it's back to operations and service delivery in my business, right? When I'm beginning, I'm the guy wearing all the hats on the guy doing all the work. My goal is to max is to create enough of that work, where I can hire a contractor or an employee to do the work. Then you build it one at a time. So my client, engineering client, a client of mine, than the other four and a half years of hiring their 11th employee, now, hey, we've averaged 1.5 to two employees per year, like clockwork, is every time we hire an employee, the owner goes back to work in that position and maxes himself out again. And then we hire the next one, then we max out again, then we hire next one. Now we've gotten to a point where we max out this employee we hired the next. Right, but each employee along the way is profit. So if we just hired the employee, he wouldn't play golf. Yeah. So, but it's how can I create leverage with my time, if I'm Kevin, if I'm Michael, if I'm Lisa, if any of you, I want to look at that for list exercise is shared with you guys. I think last month, go back and listen, go back and look at it. It's labeled for list exercise. Okay, under the recorded calls, I want to keep track of that. Because once I have a certain task, or a combination of tasks added, added more than 10 hours a week of my time, I'm gonna go hire somebody to do that shit. I'm gonna have to hire an employee. Now, I'm gonna go hire somebody to do that. Because now I've got 10 hours a week for my time back, etc. Now, if you're in mortgage real estate, I just had a conversation with Nancy, she's like, oh, man, nothing's happening here on the East Coast. And we, you know, we're not gonna we're not having, you know, the market is slowing down. Right, the market is slowing down. Alex has ever heard that my life and the market slowing now. I'm like, freaking badass man. What do you mean, I know, when the market slows down, all the non professionals retreat to the hills. Okay, they they they retreat. The ones that make the money are the ones that face that storm and drive right into it and go, Okay, I'm going to up my game from a sales from a content standpoint, I'm going to reach out to more people on the call more people on connect with more people, because your competitor is going back and getting a job somewhere. Because the easy mortgage or the easy refinance is gone. Or the easy house sale or listing or buyer is gone. Right? But go back and talk to anybody that was in real estate in 1980 81 and 82. When mortgage rates were 21% and ask them how many homes got sold that year, and I guarantee a bunch of homes got sold. Right? Why? Because all the people that were amateurs went back and got a job somewhere. That professional said, Okay, this is a huge opportunity for me. I'm just gonna go and plow, right? It's like, oh, it's upstairs in chapter I think chapter seven of the 10x rule book it talks about four levels of four degrees of action. Okay, and the third degree is the most dangerous which is normal levels of action. Yeah, comfort, love comfort zone. Comfort level. Need to be at a massive action level at all times is especially when the markets getting ready to switch Which in the real estate market is getting ready to switch in a big way? From everybody I've talked to, and everybody I know. And so most of your competition is going to head to the hills. They're going to reach. Press in. You're like, man, well, I know you'll get a job now. And so yeah, go go make your ends meet. But I'd be freaking taken every waking hour, sharpening my axe, sharpening my skills contacting more people, because nobody else is going to be doing it. Everybody else is gone. Yeah. So same thing as a handyman. No digital AI robot is going to come in and replace a bathroom showerhead. Okay, I've got a frickin you know, up in my, in my house here, all you have to do is pick up the phone and hack harass my wife. Okay. And because I already let you know, already said, Hey, man, I got work to do around here. Right? But I'm not gonna follow up with you. Because I'm busy. Right? And how many more people out there like me. They have a lot of crap to get done. But it's like, okay, well, shit. Yeah, the only reason I took apart that I'm looking out my window here, the only reason I took apart that damn bed is because I waited till the very last damn minute before that, check, check. Exchange Student Well, right here the other night. Now, I should have what I should have done. If you would have been harassing my wife, I wish and I just have to cycle over do the shit. I don't want to do this took me two hours to do that damn thing. Because the bolts were strapped and all this other crap. And I'm like, I'm like, I can go down to my garage and get my grinder and go to town. But I'm like, I just, I was gonna resell the thing. I'm screwed. I destroyed the thing. Because I got pissed when I could have sold the thing for a couple of 180 300 bucks and paid you 100 bucks to take it apart. You know? But, and then I wasted two hours of my time. Okay, so the point is, is in each one of your businesses talk to prospective prospects and ask them how can I help you? Okay, how, how often would you check back with people after you give them a quote? or speak with them initially? If I give you a quote, If I if you give somebody a quote? Yeah. Jack, let me ask you answer that question. So when somebody you give somebody a quote, what's your process Jack I start with trying to find the mute button, which is quite elusive at that point. So when I give someone a quote, If I don't leave with a signature, I'm leaving with a follow up step of when I'm doing the next step of talking to them. So and if it's needed to do a second presentation. So like, for some clients, I'll do a presentation put a quote in front of that, I know that there's more people involved in the decision making process, and I don't trust the telephone game. And I give them a story of how it's okay, you know, so and so client, I actually present the to each one of them. So instead of you trying to remember the whole thing I just went through, I'll just do it again, for them. You don't have to sit there and two, when's a good time for them to sit down. So if there's not this decision maker, I scheduled that same same thing scheduled appointment, don't wait for them to hear back from you. Always leave scheduling the next step. Because if you don't, it'll fall by this this undefined wait time, which you might not catch back up on. And again, like sales cycles are all gonna be different per person, per industry per every variable. It could be something simple, but if you I also start off before I get to the contract part, one of the first things I do my presentation is tell them to walk me through their buying process, whether they're buying a car or buying it services, they usually have well, you know, I kind of like to sit on a quote for a little bit, see how I feel about it, whether someone's like, Hey, this looks great. I'm firing away on it, because I know it solves a problem for me. So start in the beginning how they buy a product, whatever your product is, if you were to buy a new shower for a year, well, what do you would think, what's your process of buying a shower, they don't have one. You can give them examples. And you can see if one feels closer to them, you're trying to see if the you know, putting the right size shoe on their foot there. But so it starts in the beginning at the entry level. That's another step of what are you doing next. And I also took this thing from someone else that because I know a lot of times and I'm quoting and they're gonna go and get several quotes like everyone else. You're gonna shop up and they say, Hey, listen to your site. Can you just do me one favor? I know you're gonna look at a couple other companies here. So can we just say either way have a conversation at the end just so we can see where we stand on things to, even if we aren't your favorite war fits there? Or can be, hey, that we love what you put in front of us. What are next steps, we could start right away most of the time, it's what are next steps. I had a client who actually came back gave me my competitors quotes, which I hold on to because now I know more of my competitors in the industry near me. And we were we were actually the most expensive one. So they weren't shopping our price. They're shopping on the value and everything else I gave them. But I found that out by what they gave me. So I just told them that either way, have another conversation them because I told them how to read my clients contracts and look for the fine print and where they're going to lose their money. And appreciate that. Only you send them a quote. I mean, if you're sitting next to him, the best way to close deals presented, right? So hey, can I go over this with you? Right? If you can't do that, then send them a quote, I send them a text going, Hey, I just sent you a quote. Hey, got a couple of spots open this afternoon. Let's talk about it. If I don't hear from him, and you know, text always gets read. If I don't hear from him with it, by the end of the day, I'm picking up the phone and I'm calling him he gets a quote. Any questions? Are you ready to roll on this? Okay. Well, let me think about it. Okay. What do you need to think about? Okay, how about today is Monday? What do you think about it between now and 5pm? Tomorrow? And let me know what you think. Okay. Now the thing that works is put a put a expiration date on the quote, squats, Smith, told Friday. Like some guy booked a strategy session with me last week, he happens to be an old client of mine was scheduled for tomorrow. I told him I said, Hey, you got by Friday to pay that bill? And if you don't pay it, then it's gonna get rescheduled? Well, he didn't pay it. So I'm gonna send an email, basically canceling the appointment. Okay, and saying, Hey, if you want to reschedule, here's the link to my calendar to go to reschedule. And if you don't reschedule by the end of today, the price is going up if you do want to reschedule because I don't really care. Now, the reason you could do that is when you have a big old pipeline business. Right? A big pipeline. You can say stuff like that, because you don't need one person. Right, Kevin, you got a question? Or just gonna comment on kind of what y'all are talking about. For me, I'm a little softer than that most of my business is referred. And so I can pretty, I can stay on people pretty tight with the excuse that he listened. Steve referred me to you. I want to make sure I get back to Steve about how we're doing. Because the biggest problem people have is the job they want to get done. Doesn't ring. Friday night, they go back, I'm back on it. Should I need to do that? That pipe out in the back? Yeah. Okay. I'll call somebody on Monday. And they go on with their, their day, right? So he doesn't ring. And that's what I tell them. I say, Listen, I know that doesn't ring. So I'm going to bring your phone to make sure that you get done what you want to get done. And to I'm going to have I want to get back to Steve and tell him how I did. Because it's important to me that he knows I'm doing a great job following up with you. Otherwise, you won't be continuing for a business. Absolutely. So I want to go at the same pace you want to go. Like I want to follow up with you as fast as you want me to. But at the same time, I want to make sure I can report back to Steve, because I want to make sure that relationship is more importantly, honestly than me doing business with you today. I mean way but I say the way they understand. And the other thing I'm trying to do is see them for referring the business. Yeah, absolutely. Keep them informed and so forth. So very, very important. Very, very good stuff. So that's a great way to close out our call is solely refers you business. The most important thing I got from this and Thanks for the reminder, Kevin is the most important person in the referral process. Is the person referring you the business, not the referral itself? I liked that. That's a great quote. I'm gonna steal it. So there you go. All right, guys. Have a blessed day, man. Call me or text me if you need anything. I'll be going

In this episode of the Can I Have Another Snack? pod, I'm speaking to Kevin Jarvis about Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder, or ARFID - a feeding difference that presents differently for different folks but might be characterised by a relatively limited number of preferred foods, sensory processing differences, and fear of eating. It also often intersects with OCD, Autism and other divergent neurotypes. Today we're discussing the things Kevin wished more caregivers knew about ARFID. Feeding differences are so often framed as ‘picky' or ‘fussy' eating and we are handed strategies to ‘fix' the so-called problems. These feeding therapies — rooted in the medical model of health — can often be traumatic and lead to masking. But what if we viewed feeding differences through the lens of acceptance? How might we be able to better support and accomadate feeding differences? Kevin shares some insight based on their own lived experience - I hope it helps parents and carers of kids with ARFID better understand their experiences. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.We touch on some distressing experiences around ED treatment and trauma in this episode, so please look after yourself and skip this episode if you're not feeling up to it.Follow Kevin's work on Instagram here.Join Kevin's ARFID Peer Support Space on Facebook here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Kevin Jarvis: And I got a dietician and within 20 minutes of talking to her, she's like, have you ever heard of ARFID? I was like, no. So we like went on a deep dive about that, what that was. I was like, holy shit, like there's a name for something i've been experiencing my whole fucking life. What?INTROLaura Thomas: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about food, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Kevin Jarvis. Kevin, who uses they/them pronouns, is a mad, disabled, and queer artist from so-called Western Massachusetts, located on the Pocomtuc People's Land.Kevin's art and activism speaks to their lived experience with mental health in an unfiltered way. They exhibit a passionate effort towards making the world a more accessible place for everyone, and their lifelong struggle with things like ARFID, chronic illness, and mental illness fuels this passion. When they're not painting, sculpting, making, or building something, they enjoy being at the Nubble Lighthouse, hanging with their cats, Tucker and Potato, which is potentially the best name I've ever heard for a cat, cooking, and getting lost in the woods. So I asked Kevin to come onto the podcast to speak about Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder, or ARFID. A lot of you have been asking me for more content around feeding neurodivergent kids, and there's a huge overlap between ARFID and various sensory sensitivities and divergent neurotypes. So I wanted to speak to someone who had some lived experience to talk about the things that they wished more caregivers knew about this feeding difference. We touch on some distressing experiences around eating disorder treatment and trauma so please look after yourself and skip this episode if you're not feeling up to it. Before we get to Kevin, I want to remind you that the Can I Have Another Snack? universe is entirely listener and reader supported. If you get something out of the work we do here, please consider supporting us by becoming a paid subscriber.It's £5 a month or £50 for the year, and as well as getting you loads of cool perks, you help guarantee the sustainability of the newsletter and the podcast. You have a say in the work that we do here, and you help ensure I can keep delivering deeply researched pieces that provide a diet culture-free take on hot nutrition topics like ultra processed foods, the Zoe app and a deep dive on helping kids have a good relationship with sugar. All of those you can find at laurathomas.substack.com and I'll link to them in the show transcript as well so you can find them. And if you're not totally sold yet, then maybe this lovely little review that I got recently will help convince you. So this reader wrote, “I feel so lucky that I found your work around the same time I started feeding my kid real, in inverted commas, food. They mean solid foods! It saved me so much angst and has allowed me to relax and really enjoy seeing him explore eating. Your essay on sugar especially was a game changer. I'm sure it won't always be plain sailing, but I feel much more prepared to ride the waves of his changing appetite and taste as he grows, accepting them as a feature and not a bug. So hopefully he can have a much more relaxed relationship to food than I had for a long time. And I pay my £5 a month because I so value the work you put into your writing and think it's worth paying for. There's loads of free advice out there, but I never really know what I can trust. This is such a safe haven.”So thank you for that really lovely review. And yeah, it's £5 a month or £50 for the year. You can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com or check out the show notes for this episode for all the links. And if you can't stretch to a paid subscription right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk for a comp subscription, no questions asked, and just put the word ‘Snacks' in the subject line. And those comp subscriptions are also made possible by supporting subscribers. So thank you if you are a fully paid up member of the community. Alright team, here's Kevin.MAIN EPISODELaura Thomas: Hey, Kevin, thank you so much for joining us. I was wondering if we could start by saying a little bit about yourself and the work that you do.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, so I'm Kevin. I'm from Western Massachusetts. I use they/them pronouns. Yeah, I'm just like a disabled queer content creator and chef and peer mentor. I do a lot of work around eating disorders in the trans community and like neurodiversity and eating disorders. More specifically talking a lot about ARFID. And what that is and what it means to be a fidder, which is a term I coined for people with ARFID. People have enjoyed it. So yeah, just like what it's like being a fidder and like how the world, and providers specifically, can do better. Yeah, and i'm also a cat dad which feels important to always add.. Yeah, like I also have a wonderful fiancé but also…cat dad.Laura Thomas: I love that's where you derive your identity. And I also love that you were the person that coined the term fidder, I think, for lots of other kind of neurotypes…there's like a cute little name for them. ARFID didn't have one until you came along, so thank you for that.Let's maybe start by explaining what exactly ARFID is, because I think my audience might have heard me use that term or use the term 'feeding differences', but they may never have had it properly defined. So do you want to start by explaining to us what exactly ARFID is?Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, I would first say to get rid of the DSM definition and don't go by that if you've never heard of it because it's all a lie. But ARFID stands for Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder, so it's this fear of eating or the concept, like the fear of the concept of eating, due to like textures and tastes and fear of choking.So when I talk about ARFID, I break it into two categories. There's a few different categories, but like the two main ones are like having it from birth and like connecting that to your neurotype. So for me, I'm autistic and I think ARFID has just forever been in my life because of that. Not saying every autistic person has ARFID, but the crossover between the two is really large. And then there's folks that like might have had a fear... like might have choked or swallowed something wrong or gotten really sick from eating and they developed ARFID later in life. So those are like, the first two ways I like to think about it.And then I also think about it as like people that are avoiding certain foods, but still getting nutrition where that avoiding part comes in. And then the restrictive part... people are restricting a lot and not taking in a lot of food for the same fears, fear of choking, fear of all the textures.Yeah, and there's also a large crossover of ARFID and OCD and anxiety and queerness and neurodiversity. Yeah, it's all one big population of things, but I would also add that in the DSM and in treatment centres, but I'll also add that you can't have, quote, can't have body dissatisfaction with ARFID, and that's complete bullshit and it definitely can exist, especially if the crossover between queerness is there and neurodivergence is there. Like it's just unreal to say that you can't have body distress and a lot of people get misdiagnosed for that. So that would be my very short answer of what ARFID is.Laura Thomas: Yeah, there's so much to unpack just in what you said there, but I think that point that you made at the end is that...often if we're looking at it purely through the lens of the DSM, we sometimes label people incorrectly with anorexia nervosa or another eating or feeding disorder because they have the body image component because that's how the DSM kind of pigeonholes people. Basically the DSM says that folks who have ARFID do not have body image disturbances, is the vernacular that they use. So it must be anorexia because... that has a weight and shape concerns component to it, but what you're saying is that you can have ARFID, you can have body image disturbances, and it's not anorexia or another feeding or eating disorder. It's still ARFID. Those two things can coexist together. People get misdiagnosed and then that has like huge implications for the support that they can access and get.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah I was misdiagnosed as anorexic and there were definitely anorexic tendencies and you can have both. But I wouldn't say that was, like, the main issue so I did four or five months of treatment for the wrong thing, and it traumatised me, and scared me into foods and things that still affect me three years later.You can have both, and also you can just have ARFID and hate your body that's also real.Laura Thomas: Look at the culture that we live in, right? It's very difficult to not hate your body in the cultural conditions that we're swimming in. Okay. Yeah. My next question was going to be, can you tell us a bit more about your story and your experiences with ARFID and how you figured that out? It sounds like from what you were saying, it's always been a part of you, but maybe you were told it was something else, I don't know. So I'd love to hear more about that journey and figuring out that this was ARFID.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, so I always grew up just being called a picky eater, which now I despise that more than anything in the world. And when people are like, picky eating and ARFID, no it's, it's like far more than just your average quote, picky eating. So I was just labelled as the picky eater, and...I don't know. My childhood was pretty great with like food wise stuff, but the older I got and the more I, like, voiced my concerns, it was just…grow up, like you're older now. You should be eating more things, like this was cute when you were a kid, but you're an adult now. So when it came time that everyone in my life was like, hey, I think you need to get some help get some support, I wasn't involved in the eating disorder world. So I didn't know how traumatic treatment centres can be. So I did go to one and yeah, I was misdiagnosed on the first day and the whole time I was there it was very like, okay, let's get Kevin weight restored which..whatever that…whatever...Laura Thomas: Yeah, that's a whole other podcast.Kevin Jarvis: Yes, let's get Kevin to where - quote - they should be and then we'll worry about some other stuff. And I just remember one day distinctively I was told that, like I needed to eat a bowl of Froot Loops and not separate them by colour and it's…okay, who is that harming? Who's being harmed by me enjoying just the silly little game? Like, I can not do it, but also it is calming, and who cares? And it was just like, the whole time I was there, that was it. It was like, oh, let's get Kevin to eat their sandwich put together and not apart. And it's okay, but who's that actually hurting other than now me, and bringing it back? So yeah, I didn't have a great time there and they were randomly ended up telling me it was time for me to leave and then they didn't set me up with a care team afterwards. They just dropped me off. I sent several emails, just never heard back from them again. So I had to figure my own thing out.And I got a dietician and within 20 minutes of talking to her, she's like, have you ever heard of ARFID? I was like, no. So we like went on a deep dive about that, what that was. I was like, holy shit, like there's a name for something i've been experiencing my whole fucking life. What?So that was only three years ago that I learned that there was a word for it and then I got dropped by a couple care people because there's just like... I mean, preaching to the choir, but like as you know, there's just like these golden standards that patients should be meeting in care and I wasn't meeting them because it wasn't like neuro affirming care and it wasn't ARFID affirming care so they were actually just making everything worse and when you don't hit their goals you're like labelled a liability and then you're just dropped.So I was dropped a few times. I was like this is fucking bullshit. So I made my own Instagram page and was like, I'm going to create the space that doesn't exist. And now I run support groups every month over there. I've done a few trainings. I've done some consultations. But it's really mostly about building and fostering communities.  So that's kind of where I am now and how that all came to be.Laura Thomas: Yeah. Okay. Wow. The treatment that you received, it just sounds so horrendous, but I know that, unfortunately, it's not uncommon to receive that type of, and I'm using like air quotes, care, because it's anything but care. It sounds like when you found that dietitian that was able to tell you, actually, I think we're dealing with something else and this is what it is, that seemed to be so affirming. Whereas the rest of your treatment was not affirming and was not offering support and accommodations, which is what anyone with even just a drop of knowledge about ARFID would be pushing for. So yeah, I'm just so angry and upset for you that has been your experience. I wonder if you could maybe say more about the intersection of ARFID and autism, because, when did your autism diagnosis come into play? Or is that something that, you've even had formally diagnosed?Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, so when I was a kid, I think  the vibe that kind of still exists is like diagnoses hinder you. So I wasn't diagnosed. And I still haven't been, because now that I know okay, first thought is like, there's so much to say, but my first thought is first of all, that's bullshit, and it wouldn't have hindered me, it would have made my life significantly easier and now that I'm an adult, I'm like, okay well, It's harder to adopt children if you have an autism diagnosis.There's like certain countries you literally can't even go to if you have a diagnosis. And there's so much stigma that I'm like, I'm glad I don't have a diagnosis. And also, it would be really affirming and nice to have a diagnosis. Laura Thomas: It's so complicated, like that whole, whether it's ADHD or autism or Tourette's or anything that falls within the neurodivergent umbrella, like it's such a complex mix of whether or not to get a diagnosis. Because as you say... for some people, it might open the appropriate doors for support and care but by opening those doors, you might be shutting other avenues of possibility. So like, oh, it's such a head fuck to sit with. Do I/don't I go for a diagnosis?Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, like you're telling me I can't adopt children because I'm autistic? That's wild. So yeah, I don't have a diagnosis, but self diagnosis...Laura Thomas: Oh, it's totally valid.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah.Laura Thomas: I'm conscious that parents might be listening and another sort of thread of this is around medication and that being like a form of support that you might not be able to access. Now, we could debate, the merits of medication as well.And whatever, it's just trying to encourage people to conform to neurotypical capitalist bullshit standards. And at the same time, they can be a really helpful support for folks. So yeah, I just want to give that like side note.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, and a side note is that A lot of people with ARFID if they are autistic, their muscle tone is pretty bad and like I could easily get OT and speech Therapy right now, which I need if I had that diagnosis. So again, it's just like... it's all bullshit.But yeah, so I would say like some of the main differences with autism and ARFID is like the fear is really different. So there's foods I don't like just because the texture is weird, but it doesn't terrify me to, like, have it around me. So that is like more just the autistic piece. And then the ARFID is just like literally the fear of eating, which is like so scary because you have to do it and like the work it takes to eat and like stuff like that.Laura Thomas: I suppose what I'm hearing you say is that when it comes to food specifically, they manifest slightly differently, but in an overlapping way, it sounds? And I was wondering, if you could speak to maybe any other clues, as it were... maybe growing up in your childhood, like you said that people labelled you as picky, which we've established as a problematic phrase, but I'm wondering for parents of kids... who, they're not sure like, is this just, your garden variety, picky eating from toddlerhood? Or is there something that might warrant some more support and help? If you look back, what were those sort of red flags for you in your childhood?Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, I think with ARFID, it's just I was so afraid to eat things. So like an example would be like, I enjoy my food separated, I think that's a very ARFID-y thing, but it could also be like an autistic thing, separating and sorting things is very calming. But the difference is if you give me a plate of everything touching, it's ruined now and I'm not going to eat it, while an autistic kid might just like divide it how they like it.Everyone's different, but those are like, that would be my first example. And like, eating around people too. You have to look like, is your kid afraid to be around people because the sensory overload? Or are they afraid to be around people because there's food? And now they have to make decisions about what they want to eat, and they have to eat in front of people. And another one is like I've always eaten with my fingers. I enjoy eating with my fingers and it's not because it's just like I enjoy it sensory wise which might be an autistic thing. It's because I need to know what is happening in my food and I need to be in control of what is happening with my food and if I'm eating with a fork there might be something hidden, which I think we're gonna talk about later, about lying to your children.Laura Thomas: Yeah, for sure.Kevin Jarvis: That was my experience, so now, as an adult, I enjoy picking through my food with my fingers. Just, it makes me feel better. So it's the anxiety...is your child doing it because it's calming? And are they self soothing, or are they fucking terrified?Laura Thomas: They're trying to find safety, it sounds like. That pulling food apart to make sure that there's nothing hidden in it…that to me sounds like trying to find clues that the food that you're about to eat is safe. And I think there's a part of that as well that's just a sort of human instinct like... my three year old, who, as far as I know, is neurotypical, he will often want to sit on my lap and eat my food because he's seen me eat it and he's like, well, if it's safe for you to eat, then... I trust you, so it's safe for me to eat.So side note for parents who have, like, toddlers and preschoolers who just constantly want to sit on your lap while they're eating. That might be why. But yeah, it's about that felt safety piece that is, is like just so fundamental when we're feeding ourselves or feeding other people.So you kind of alluded to some of the stuff that we're going to talk about. And basically, I wanted to talk to you about a post that you had written where you cover six things that you wished caregivers understood about kids with ARFID, which I'll link to in the show notes. But I thought it was such a great summary that I wanted to go through it with you today, so we'll go through each of the six points that you make and just break them down.So let's start with number one, which is that your child deserves autonomy no matter what. Can you say more about that?Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, so autonomy is like self government and making your own choices, and being in control of your own life and that's something most adults have, not everybody but it's like in regards to food, like you decide what you're going to eat, and you decide how it's cooked, and you decide when you're eating it, so it's kind of the same idea as that like, your child deserves the same thing. And like children know what they like and they know what they don't like. And it's just super fucked up to be like this is what is happening and this is what we're doing and this is how it's being done and I don't really care.And also this, forced oh, no, you like it. You do like it. You like it and it's like... how do you know that though? Like just because you like something doesn't mean your child's gonna like it so... the idea is like giving your child autonomy and like giving them... obviously not like free rein of the kitchen But like a step would be like…four options put in front of them. There you go. Now they have autonomy and what they're and like where you want to sit like these are the options of where you can sit or like these are the options for dips and like small steps like that and then eventually letting them make, like, help you make their grocery list and like help you grocery shop and have their own input and like... well, we need yogurt. So what kind of yogurt would you like? Yeah stuff like that autonomy and your children deserve it. They're like whole peopleLaura Thomas: Yeah. There's obviously... like you said there, there's a practical aspect of this that like, like young kids, especially little kids cannot go to the store and buy whatever or cook whatever they want, right? So there's like a part of this that, obviously, parents are going to have to be responsible for some of that decision making. But within that, where can you give them a sense of control, a sense of ownership over what they're doing? And that's why I talk so much about responsive feeding, one of the, like, the values of responsive feeding is autonomy. And so... there can be little things I've done a post, maybe probably a few posts that I'll link to in the show notes about this, but, things like family meals, where, if we put out various different options and let them put it on their plate for themselves, give them some control, give them some ownership.But the other piece that I'm thinking about here is also the bodily autonomy piece of respecting and honouring appetite. And if a kid says, I'm full, I'm done, and they've had two bites of, I don't know, rice, we have to also trust that piece and not override their hunger and fullness cues by saying, no, you haven't had enough to eat or you haven't eaten the right things or you need to eat a vegetable or whatever it is.Kevin Jarvis: Yes, it was very much like, growing up like, well, it's dinner, or you're just gonna go to bed hungry, or you can have peanut butter on toast. Oh! So because I don't like the food that you are making, I have to like, fucking starve for the night, and I'm not, again, not saying like, open up the pantries and let children run free, but also, yeah... Set mealtimes for a lot of autistic people, introception and like knowing what your body is wanting doesn't really exist. So for some people, yeah, like a very structured meal time can be very helpful. And then for other kids, like they just need to fucking graze all day and have meals on their own time.And it's okay to, like, leave food out. And that's like the chef part of me coming out. I'm like, how long you can leave food out and like stuff like that. And you can leave food out for a while and let them make their own decisions. Yeah, it's wild that parents are just like, no, you're not full. And it's oh, you're inside my body? You know what I want?Laura Thomas: Yeah. And I think what you're talking about is that a lot of advice in the kid feeding space is geared towards, like Ellyn Satter's division of responsibility, which says you have to have set meal and snack times, which for some kids is super helpful. Like the predictability, routine.And the idea there is that if a kid doesn't eat much at one meal or snack that like another meal or snack is coming up fairly soon so they can afford to kind of like mess up a little bit because there will be something else there. Like, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, providing that there's some flexibility, right?But what I see is it being so rigidly applied and weaponised against people to say you should have eaten more at dinner time. We just had dinner. And kitchen's closed or whatever Instagram tells us to say to our kids.And I think the key thing for me is that every kid is going to be different as to the level of structure versus flexibility that they need. And even with my own kid, who again, probably is probably neurotypical is like…even that varies, like, from day to day, the amount of structure versus, like, freedom he needs.So yeah, super kind of nuanced conversation, but again, why like the response to feeding model can be really helpful because it encourages us to look at the individual kid right in front of us, rather than follow some rigid rules that some white lady made up in the 80s... we don't need that. Like, parenting has evolved, our understanding of neurodivergence has evolved. We know so much more than we did in the 80s. So we need to update these models that we're using to feed our kids.Okay. Number two is that your child isn't being dramatic or seeking attention. I love this one. Just let me know your thoughts on this.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah. So I think I always relate things back to myself. The panic attacks I would have over like, a meal having tiny pieces of onions in it and just being, like, called dramatic and told to suck it up, which is just like, rude and a lot of sexism and gross things. Your fears and your anxious thoughts are valid and so are your kids'.And like in the post I wrote about like… imagine you just wake up and the thing that literally keeps you alive brings you so much anxiety and like... your child probably hasn't been to therapy yet for it and doesn't have the language to use for it. And they're just so fucking scared. It's just like how can you say that's not like real or that they're seeking attention and like being dramatic. That's just bullshit. They're not seeking attention. They're fucking scared.Laura Thomas: Yeah. for a lot of kids, ARFID is like any other phobia, right? We're effectively like putting a tarantula on their plate and being like, here, eat this. And I think what you're saying is...that their emotions and experiences are valid, and I think the thing that's…the irony in it is that if we are to validate people's experiences, it helps bring felt safety to their body, which is going to make it easier for them to eat.So by invalidating their experiences, we're actually making the situation so much worse and making it so much harder for them to nourish themselves. Yeah, it's such an important point.The third one that you picked out was: lying about food creates a lack of trust and comfort with caregivers. I actually recently did a post about why we need to stop hiding veggies in our kids' food, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, so again, bringing it back to myself, that was something that was huge in my life. I remember asking my parents, is there X, Y, and Z? Usually it was like onions and mushrooms because canned food a lot has like little chunks in it. And they would just look at me and say, No. And it's just okay, now I trust you. You're the adult I'm supposed to trust. I can't make my own food. And then you go to eat. And now everything involved with that meal is now on my shit list and I'm terrified of it and anything I see...I mean as an adult I've worked a lot back into my diet, but I still like... now it like creates so much anxiety that like my fiancé who would never a day in their life lie to me I asked them during mealtimes.I'm like, hey, what's in it? Did you put X, Y, and Z and they don't get angry? They're just like, no, bub. There's none of that in there. I'm like 25 years old now and something that happened in my childhood is now causing so much anxiety in my adulthood. And it's just…why do you have to lie? Like, why can't you just be like here's what's in the food or put it on the side and just be like here's what I was gonna put in the food maybe next time we can actually work on putting it in the food. So yeah, just like why are you doing that and now I don't trust adults.Or, like, when I go out to restaurants I usually get the same exact thing because I've had it and I know it's in it and I know that there's not going to be anything weird hidden in it. It's little things like that are going to affect your child literally for their entire life. It's just like what, why lie?  Why can't you just be honest? You wouldn't like, lie to your fiancé or like your loved one and be like, Oh no, there's nothing in there. Your kid is smart! Your kid can find what's in the food. Laura Thomas: They will figure it out, especially because, like, kids with ARFID usually have such, like, sensitive palates, right? When I spoke to Rachel Millner for the podcast - I will link back to her episode - she talks about how she took, like, packets of chips out of their bags and presented it to her kid. And they were able to tell the difference…the same flavour of crisp but just different brands. And they were able to tell you like which one was which and there was one that they clearly liked and one they clearly didn't like and to her, they tasted exactly the same but kid there's a clear difference. And so basically what I'm trying to say is if you're lying to them they will know and it's also again counterproductive to actually helping them feel safe around food and helping them, you know, find ways to nourish their body right because like we have to do that one way or another.By lying to them, you're making it less likely that they will be able to do that in a safe way.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, there's a word for that also, and you can get little test strips on Amazon to check if you're a super taster. It literally means you just have extra taste....like it scientifically we can tell the difference. Like we shop at BJ's which is like our whole food, wholesale food, whatever storeLaura Thomas: Yeah. Like a Costco kind of situation. Yeah.Kevin Jarvis: We got Ritz Bits, which are... were one of my favorite crackers. We got them in like the large bag with mini bags And then we went to a different...I think we went to Walmart a few weeks later when we ran out of those…same thing, completely different fucking taste. My fiancé was like It tastes the same. I was like, no, you're not going to look me in the eyes and tell me that the cheese tastes the same in this one! And they're like, you're right, sorry, to me it tastes the same. I hear you and I'm validating you.Laura Thomas: There's like a genetic component to that as well, right? The super taster gene.The next thing that you had on your list was that sitting at the table three times a day is overwhelming and a neurotypical standard. Can you unpack that for us a bit?Kevin Jarvis: Yeah. In treatment centres and like in most homes, I feel like sitting at the dinner table and being present and aware, usually with family, is really common, and nobody else can see me right now, but like I'm constantly moving. I'm always in motion. My body is never not moving. So for that aspect, it's just under stimulating to just sit at a table and then the mindfulness part of no, I cannot, and mindfulness is like a whole other thing that people think is supposed to be in eating disorder recovery. It's... no, if I am aware and present and like only focusing on my food, I'm only focusing on my food. And that is so, like, anxiety provoking, like I need to be like watching tv or on my phone and like sitting down and like also now you're comparing, you're like opening up the floor for comparison. It's, oh well my dad and my brother are eating this way and now iIm eating this way and i'm wrong and I'm the weird one and I'm the outcast so just sets like a lot of expectations.Like when I was in treatment I had a puzzle next to me at the meal table and once in a while I would have to get up to move a puzzle piece and put it where it was and that was a eating disorder behaviour because I wasn't like focused on my meal. And another time I left my computer somewhere and I was just pacing around because I was under stimulated and needed to be doing something and they're like, oh no, you're trying to lose weight. You're trying to like, weigh out the calories in your food walking. It's no, I'm autistic and I need to be fucking moving, otherwise I'm going to implode and have a meltdown. These standards are so harmful and also so silly. You're only gonna talk to your family at the dinner table? Like, why can't we all go do an activity or take a walk together or be sitting in the living room? Like, where did this come from? Why are we doing it?Laura Thomas: But there's a lot that we could say about the standard of the family meal and, again, it's complicated because for some families, it is really like this place that they come together at the end of the day, and it's like, there is no pressure around the food and it can be like, whatever this wholesome experience. And for other families, it's a complete fucking nightmare.Like I'm thinking again about my three year old and, even he needs to take body breaks at mealtimes, like he needs to get down, run around, go check out his toys and come back. And he does that a lot while he's eating. So I think that there is something like just inherent for probably most people. It feels good to get up and move around and take a break and come back. You know, we just assert these standards, these, like, really violent standards over how people should show up at the table. And I think so much of it has to do with capitalism as well, in terms of the three meal a day structure, right? I feel like that was born out of…okay, I need to eat something before I go to work. And then I only have this one break in the middle of the day from my work. And then I have to go back and sit at my desk or do whatever labour is. And then I can't eat again until I go home. And so that's like where the three meal a day pattern comes from.Kevin Jarvis: Capitalism!Laura Thomas: Capitalism! It has so much to answer for.So yeah, I think what we're saying is that first of all, sitting at a table is bullshit for a lot of people, and secondly that's that three meal a day structure. For some people, it does work, but not for everyone.Number five is a big one. I think for parents to hear, which is: you haven't done anything wrong and you're not a failure.I think so many parents that I speak to blame themselves for their kids' feeding differences. Because there's so much pressure to feed our kids so -quote unquote- perfectly and there's a lot of healthism and ableism and, I think white supremacy, built into these standards.So yeah can you talk a little bit about how parents don't cause their kids ARFID? But also how there are things that they can do that might exacerbate things and make things worse for their kids?Kevin Jarvis: I mean, I definitely think there's like maybe a 5% chance that you've caused your kid or your kids ARFID, because if you've lied to them a bunch, or say you didn't cut something up small enough, and they choked and now they're afraid. So there's very small instances.But if you've done everything in your power. to treat your kids well, um, and to like love on them, then yeah, you haven't done anything. Some people are just born with it, like you haven't caused their autism, you haven't caused, like, their ARFID, that's just not a real thing. And I think giving yourself compassion is not only important for you, but also for your kid, because if you're just walking around just like very mopey, like everything is wrong, I did it, first of all, now your kid is going to feel guilty back towards you and like themselves. If you're just gonna walk around and just do this whole, woe is me act, which obviously is very comforting. And sometimes you just have to be in that headspace. It's just not giving the best message for your kid and It's more of just okay,this is the reality of the situation. This is what's happening and now what can I do to, like, help in like aid and meet the child where they are and like be there and be supportive. So yeah I think it's important not to blame yourself, a) because you deserve compassion and like kindness towards yourself and like you didn't do anything and like it's just putting a bad vibe in everyone's mouth when you do things like that.You have to take a step back and be like, okay, what is right and wrong, and why does food have moral value, and where is this all rooted in, and it's like a lot of internal work. So yeah, it is easier to just be in like a very woe is me kind of place. But you can also be in a very, okay, this is the reality of the situation, here's what we got to do moving forward, here's how to get rid of and step out of these normative ideas that have been put on.Laura Thomas: I have so much compassion for parents. I think because I'm on that side of the…divide as it were now, because there is just this just wild indecent amount of pressure on parents to feed their kids in a particular way.And there's also something I think about, survival and, like, feeding your child is such a, like primitive, fundamental aspect of being a parent that if we feel like we're not doing that properly, as it were then, you know, it touches on something really deep inside us. The problem is that there's such a disconnect right between what we actually need to thrive versus what diet culture et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, teaches us is like the right way.I walked past a birthday party, like in the playground a couple of weeks ago. There was, like, number three balloons up. So it was like a third birthday party and I just walked past this, this table that was literally just wall to wall with, like, strawberries, blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, like that was the party food.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah?Laura Thomas: And don't get me wrong, I like berries, but I don't only want to eat berries and I don't know any three year old that only wants to eat berries and think that's like a satisfying meal. But that's the standard that a lot of parents are trying to operate to. So if you're a kid, which you know, for all the reasons that we've talked about today, like safety, texture, just deliciousness, like if they're only eating crackers, of course, you think, oh, I fucked up here. I'm a total failure because my kid only wants to eat, like, cheesy crackers. I can understand why it happens. And there's also so much...from the feeding community about, oh, if you give your kid green food, like broccoli and kale, when you're weaning them, then you can, like, train their palates.There's so much that's really problematic about that, but these are the messages that parents are getting. So again, if their kid is…either they're going through the food neophobic developmental stage, or they're neurodivergent, or have ARFID, of course it's going to, like, be a huge disconnect for them.Kevin Jarvis: I don't talk much about children 'cause I feel like well, like parents take everything you say very seriously. And I don't wanna affect a tiny child. But my friend Lauren - her handle's @ARFID.dietician. She's fantastic and she just did a post and she's gonna keep doing this series. The last one she did was five beige foods that give you all the macronutrients. Laura Thomas: I saw that. Yeah.Kevin Jarvis: There are ways to like, eat and your child could still live... yeah, the whole you have to eat fruits and veggies, and you have to do this, and you gotta fill the five things. No, your kid can, like, eat cheese crackers and like chicken nuggets and French fries and like beige things. I always joke about a lot of people that are just eating beige and like, I'm alive!Get your kid what they need without forcing, like, diet culture on them, yeah.Laura Thomas: For sure. And I think that's really where neurodiversity affirming nutritionist or dietitian can really come in and help you like, okay, let's just at minimum, make sure that all your nutritional bases are covered, whether that's through, okay, they will eat this and that preferred food. Okay, perfect. That meets that requirement. And here's how we can fill the gaps with the supplement.And we'll get onto this in a second, probably, but then thinking, as the child feels comfortable and ready and willing in a child led way, we can start to explore new foods. But it has to be led by the child, like it can't be someone…like, particularly a neurotypical person being like you need to eat X, Y, and Z, so I'm going to make you sit at this table and you have to try it. You have to lick it, bite it, sniff it, whatever, stick it in your ear, like whatever it is before we're going to let you get away from the table.Where I guess my head is that there is, is with the treatment aspect of ARFID. And the last thing that you said in your post is that sometimes there isn't a fix or a cure, and that's okay. But so often parents and families are, like, siphoned into feeding therapies and like CBT and all kinds of different therapies. And some of these things have their place. Others don't! So I'm wondering if you could just talk about the concept of like, cure within ARFID.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, so something I talked about, I don't think it was this post, but another post was like, you simply cannot cure my autism, so you are just not going to be able to cure my ARFID. They're so intertwined, and if we look at ARFID as a neurotype, which Naureen over at RDs for Neurodiversity talks a lot about how ARFID is like a neurotype, and it is a feeding difference. and it's just like, It is what it is, kind of, in a sense. Like you can't always fix things, and if the child wants to, like you said, they can slowly start incorporating more things but like…end of the day sometimes it is just what it is and that's life.And then when you introduce…like, first of all, fuck ABA, no place for it anywhere.Laura Thomas: Just for anyone who doesn't know what that is, just so they look out for it…what is ABA?Kevin Jarvis: Gosh, what does it stand for...Applied Behavioural…?Laura Thomas: Analysis.Kevin Jarvis: Analysis. Yes. The way I describe ABA is like forcing your child to be neurotypical and like suppressing their, stimming and suppressing their autism and making them mask,  in a lot of ways sneaks in, it's just like reward systems are very like, laced with ABA, I say. Okay, if you eat five bites of your preferred or five bites of this new food, then you can get like your preferred food. Or they can eat their preferred food when they want and try new foods when they want to. Another thing with ABA is just like you have to sit at the table and you must eat and that's the rule. If you get up you're in trouble, like you did something wrong like,. Quiet hands is something you hear all the time with ABA like when kids are like flapping their hands or just like rocking back and forth... calm body and calm voice. Or they can like stim and self regulate, that way they can try new foods and they don't end up like being traumatised and like suppressing their shit. I always also relate it to like Tourette's, when you hold back your tics you're just gonna fucking explode later on, so when you like suppress stimming, or you like, you suppress the way you like to eat, and it's just gonna come out in a giant shitstorm later, so why not just meet the kid where they're at, and like you said, child led is the only way to do it, and exposure therapy is kind of bullshit, in a sense, if you're not doing it from a neuroaffirming lens of like, okay, like you said lick it, smell it, put it in your mouth. Be with it. Take it out on a date. None of that makes sense. Explore it how you want and eat it if you want and don't eat it if you... yeah, child led is like the only way to go.Laura Thomas: Yeah. So, there are a lot of therapies that…like SOS, ABA, like some other feeding therapies…that are effectively teaching kids to suppress, their natural instincts to mask and they're based on coercion and bribery and they're really traumatic for kids.And as I think you're saying, Kevin... the more that we try to force kids to assimilate to neurotypical standards, a) the more trauma that we're going to cause and b) the more that we're going to see... let's say that the kid goes to school and kind of is a, like a good little neurotypical kid all day. Then they're going to have meltdowns and be explosive at home.So it's going to, it's going to find a way to come out. Whereas if we were to meet that child with accommodations, with understanding and acceptance... maybe it means that they bring a lunch from home and get to eat it in their own little space away from the main dining hall or whatever.There are different approaches. What that's going to look like for different kids is going to be different. But trying to force them into assimilating to neurotypical standards is never. going to be the solution, because like you said, ARFID is not something that we should be trying to treat or extinguish or exterminate. It's something that we need to find ways to work with and to support kids with.Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, yeah. There's just... sometimes there's just no fix and that's life, baby. I think it's just like, also this, like, standard for eating disorders that like recovery is possible, recovery, recovery. And it's…first of all, now I feel like shit because I'm never going to meet, like, the golden standard to what recovery and like healing is supposed to look like.Can we just reword and re imagine what recovery looks like and what ARFID recovery looks like and recovery in general. But yeah, when you're like, going to treatment, and they're like, oh no, you can get rid of it! You can get rid of ARFID! Now you're just like, showing me that I can get rid of a part of my brain that has always existed, and now you've put the expectation in a child that like, they can recover it, and then when they don't, now all of their self confidence is gone.Laura Thomas: Yeah, it really sets them up to, to fail, doesn't it? Which is like, nobody wants that for their kids.Oh, Kevin, it's been so interesting to talk to you and I'm…like, I know that this will have given so much insight to parents who maybe haven't experienced ARFID or maybe parents who are now figuring out that actually I have ARFID too. That's what's been going on for me.So at the end of every episode, my guest and I share what they have been snacking on. So it could be anything, a show, a podcast, a literal snack, whatever. So I'd love to know, what have you been snacking on lately?Kevin Jarvis: I picked two. The show, me and my fiancé have been watching Tiny House Hunting, which is fantastic because we want to buy a tiny house eventually. And then my snack has been feta cheese with pasta and Greek dressing just mixed togetherLaura Thomas: Oh, that's like basically what I had for my lunch. That's hilarious.Kevin Jarvis: Oh my god, yeah. So it's still considered a pasta salad because everyone's like, that's not pasta salad, there's no veggies in it. Fuck you, it's pasta salad. It's pasta with two other things, it's a salad.Laura Thomas: It's cold. It's a salad.Kevin Jarvis: it's cold.Laura Thomas: That sounds really good. So yeah, my pasta salad had cucumbers in it. Not that I'm like bragging, but it was a recipe from Sohla El-Waylly…I love her. She's just really cool. So just shout out to Sohla. My snack is the TV show Somebody Somewhere. I don't know, have you seen it on HBO? So the premise is that um, this woman goes back to her hometown after not having lived there for a really long time because her sister is really sick and her having to just, like, navigate loss and grief and friendship and queerness and everything, like it's really tender. It's very funny, hilariously funny to the point that,  like, you think you're watching a comedy and then it like totally catches you off guard with, like, feelings and I've cried a lot. So I just finished the second season. I think the third one is coming out. So it's HBO or Sky Go if you're in the UK and I think Tiny House hHunting... is that on Netflix?Kevin Jarvis: Hulu.Laura Thomas: Hulu. Okay. I think I've seen it on Netflix in the UK, at least. Or Hulu, if you're in the States.So thank you so much, Kevin. Can you tell us where people can find out more about you and your work?Kevin Jarvis: Yeah, I'm over @KevinDoesARFID on Instagram and then I recently made a Facebook page for people with ARFID and…Laura Thomas: I thought you were going to say for boomers, but you didn't.Kevin Jarvis: No, I could if that's like a need, because I know a lot of people, like, have been wanting to access my content but haven't been able to. So working on a website, am working on a website, but for now just over on Instagram.Laura Thomas: Cool. I will link to your Instagram and your Facebook in the show notes. And thank you so much for the work you do and for being here.Kevin Jarvis: Thanks.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today.  Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. CYMI this week: How are you flipping gender scripts for your kids?* The Truth About Ultra Processed Foods - Part 1* Fundamentals: Here's What Happens When You Go On A Diet* Sweet Little Lies This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode we are going to look at Troubleshooting Scenarios.We will be discussing Duplex Operation and Mismatch Issues, IP Addressing Issues on IOS Devices, IP Addressing Issues on End Devices, Default Gateway Issues, and Troubleshooting DNS Issues.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 17 - Build a Small NetworkPart G - Troubleshooting ScenariosPodcast Number: 92-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Troubleshooting Methodologies.We will be discussing Basic Troubleshooting Approaches, Resolve or Escalate?, The debug Command, and The terminal monitor CommandThank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 17 - Build a Small NetworkPart F - Troubleshooting MethodologiesPodcast Number: 91-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Verify Connectivity.We will be discussing Verify Connectivity with Ping, Extended Ping, Verify Connectivity with Traceroute, Extended Traceroute, and Network Baseline.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 17 - Build a Small NetworkPart D - Verify ConnectivityPodcast Number: 89-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment  

In this episode we are going to look at Scale to Larger Networks.We will be discussing Small Network Growth, Protocol Analysis, and Employee Network Utilization.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 17 - Build a Small NetworkPart C - Scale to Larger NetworksPodcast Number: 88-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Small Network Applications and Protocols.We will be discussing Common Applications (including Network Applications and Application Layer Services), Common Protocols, and Voice and Video Applications.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 17 - Build a Small NetworkPart B - Small Network Applications and ProtocolsPodcast Number: 87-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Devices in a Small Network.We will be discussing Small Network Topologies, Device Selection for a Small Network (including Cost, Speed and Types of Ports/Interfaces, Expandability), Operating System Features and Services, IP Addressing for a Small Network, Redundancy in a Small Network, and finally Traffic Management.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 17 - Build a Small NetworkPart A - Devices in a Small NetworkPodcast Number: 86-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment  

In this episode we are going to look at Device Security.We will be discussing Cisco AutoSecure, Passwords, Additional Password Security, Enable SSH, and Disable Unused Services.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 16 - Network Security FundamentalsPart D - Device SecurityPodcast Number: 85-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Network Attack Mitigations.We will be discussing The Defense-in-Depth Approach, Keep Backups, Upgrade, Update, and Patch, Authentication, Authorization, and Accounting, Firewalls, Types of Firewalls, and finally Endpoint Security.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 16 - Network Security FundamentalsPart C - Network Attack MitigationsPodcast Number: 84-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Network Attacks.We will be discussing Types of Malware, Viruses, -Worms, -Trojan Horses, Reconnaissance Attacks, Access Attacks (including Password Attacks, Trust Exploitation, Port Redirection, Man-in-the-Middle), Denial of Service Attacks, and DDoS Attack.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 16 - Network Security FundamentalsPart B - Network AttacksPodcast Number: 83-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Security Threats and Vulnerabilities.We will be discussing Types of Threats, Types of Vulnerabilities, and Physical Security.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 16 - Network Security FundamentalsPart A - Security Threats and VulnerabilitiesPodcast Number: 82-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at File Sharing Services.We will be discussing File Transfer Protocol and Server Message Block.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 15 - Application LayerPart E - File Sharing ServicesPodcast Number: 81-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at IP Addressing Services.We will be discussing Domain Name Service, DNS Message Format, DNS Hierarchy, The nslookup Command, Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol, and DHCP Operation.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 15 - Application LayerPart D - IP Addressing ServicesPodcast Number: 80-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Web and Email Protocols.We will be discussing Hypertext Transfer Protocol and Hypertext Markup, Language, HTTP and HTTPS, Email Protocols, and finally SMTP, POP, and IMAP.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 15 - Application LayerPart C - Web and Email ProtocolsPodcast Number: 79-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Peer-to-Peer.We will be discussing Client-Server Model, Peer-to-Peer Networks, Peer-to-Peer Applications, and Common P2P Applications.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 15 - Application LayerPart B - Peer-to-PeerPodcast Number: 78-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Application, Presentation, and Session.We will be discussing Application Layer, Presentation and Session Layer, and TCP/IP Application Layer Protocols.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 15 - Application LayerPart A - Application, Presentation, and SessionPodcast Number: 77-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at UDP Communication.We will be discussing UDP Low Overhead Versus Reliability, UDP Datagram Reassembly, UDP Server Processes and Requests, and UDP Client Processes.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 14 - Transport LayerPart G - UDP CommunicationPodcast Number: 76-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Reliability and Flow Control.We will be discussing TCP Reliability - Guaranteed and Ordered Delivery, TCP Reliability - Data Loss and Retransmission, TCP Flow Control - Window Size and Acknowledgments, TCP Flow Control - Maximum Segment Size (MSS), and finally TCP Flow Control - Congestion Avoidance.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 14 - Transport LayerPart F - Reliability and Flow ControlPodcast Number: 75-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at TCP Communication Process.We will be discussing TCP Server Processes, TCP Connection Establishment, Session Termination, and TCP Three-Way Handshake Analysis.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 14 - Transport LayerPart E - TCP Communication ProcessPodcast Number: 74-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Port Numbers.We will be discussing Multiple Separate Communications, Socket Pairs, Port Number Groups, The netstat Command, , , , , , , , , ,.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 14 - Transport LayerPart D - Port NumbersPodcast Number: 73-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at UDP Overview.We will be discussing UDP Features, UDP Header, UDP Header Fields, and Applications that use UDP.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 14 - Transport LayerPart C - UDP OverviewPodcast Number: 72-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at TCP Overview.We will be discussing TCP Features, TCP Header, TCP Header Fields, and Applications That Use TCP.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 14 - Transport LayerPart B - TCP OverviewPodcast Number: 71-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Transportation of Data.We will be discussing Role of the Transport Layer, Transport Layer Responsibilities, Transport Layer Protocols, Transmission Control Protocol (TCP), User Datagram Protocol (UDP), and finally The Right Transport Layer Protocol for the Right Application.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 14 - Transport LayerPart A - Transportation of DataPodcast Number: 70-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Ping and Traceroute Tests.We will be discussing Ping - Test Connectivity, Ping the Loopback, Ping the Default Gateway, Ping a Remote Host, Traceroute - Test the Path, Round-Trip Time (RTT), and finally IPv4 TTL and IPv6 Hop Limit.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 13 - ICMPPart B - Ping and Traceroute TestsPodcast Number: 69-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at ICMP Messages.We will be discussing ICMPv4 and ICMPv6 Messages, Host Reachability, Destination or Service Unreachable, Time Exceeded, and ICMPv6 Messages.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 13 - ICMPPart A - ICMP MessagesPodcast Number: 68-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Subnet an IPv6 Network.We will be discussing Subnet Using the Subnet ID, IPv6 Subnetting Example, IPv6 Subnet Allocation, and Router Configured with IPv6 Subnets.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 12 - IPv6 AddressingPart H - Subnet an IPv6 NetworkPodcast Number: 67-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at IPv6 Multicast Addresses.We will be discussing Assigned IPv6 Multicast Addresses, Well-Known IPv6 Multicast Addresses, and Solicited-Node IPv6 Multicast Addresses.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 12 - IPv6 AddressingPart G - IPv6 Multicast AddressesPodcast Number: 66-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Dynamic Addressing for IPv6 LLAs.We will be discussing Dynamic LLAs, Dynamic LLAs on Windows, Dynamic LLAs on Cisco Routers, and Verify IPv6 Address Configuration.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 12 - IPv6 AddressingPart F - Dynamic Addressing for IPv6 LLAsPodcast Number: 65-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Dynamic Addressing for IPv6 GUAs.We will be discussing RS and RA Messages, Method 1: SLAAC, Method 2: SLAAC and Stateless DHCPv6, Method 3: Stateful DHCPv6, EUI-64 Process vs. Randomly Generated, EUI-64 Process, and finally Randomly Generated Interface IDs.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 12 - IPv6 AddressingPart E - Dynamic Addressing for IPv6 GUAsPodcast Number: 64-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at GUA and LLA Static Configuration.We will be discussing Static GUA Configuration on a Router, Static GUA Configuration on a Windows Host, and Static Configuration of a Link-Local Unicast Address.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 12 - IPv6 AddressingPart D - GUA and LLA Static ConfigurationPodcast Number: 63-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at IPv6 Address Types.We will be discussing Unicast, Multicast, Anycast, IPv6 Prefix Length, Types of IPv6 Unicast Addresses, A Note About the Unique Local Address, IPv6 GUA, IPv6 GUA Structure, Global Routing Prefix, Subnet ID, Interface ID, IPv6 Link Local Address (LLA).Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 12 - IPv6 AddressingPart C - IPv6 Address TypesPodcast Number: 62-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at IPv6 Address Representation.We will be discussing IPv6 Addressing Formats, Preferred Format, Rule 1—Omit Leading Zeros, and Rule 2—Double Colon.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 12 - IPv6 AddressingPart B - IPv6 Address RepresentationPodcast Number: 61-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at IPv4 Issues.We will be discussing Need for IPv6, Internet of Things, IPv4 and IPv6 Coexistence, Dual Stack, Tunneling, and Translation.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 12 - IPv6 AddressingPart A - IPv4 IssuesPodcast Number: 60-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Network Segmentation.We will be discussing Broadcast Domains and Segmentation, Problems with Large Broadcast Domains, and Reasons for Segmenting Networks.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 11 - IPv4 AddressingPart D - Network SegmentationPodcast Number: 54-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Types of IPv4 Addresses.We will be discussing Public and Private IPv4 Addresses, Routing to the Internet, Special Use IPv4 Addresses, Loopback Addresses, Link-Local Addresses, Legacy Classful Addressing, and finally Assignment of IP Addresses.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 11 - IPv4 AddressingPart C - Types of IPv4 AddressesPodcast Number: 53-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at IPv4 Address Structure.We will be discussing Network and Host Portions, The Subnet Mask, The Prefix Length, Determining the Network: Logical AND, and finally Network, Host, and Broadcast Addresses.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 11 - IPv4 AddressingPart A - IPv4 Address StructurePodcast Number: 51-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Configure the Default Gateway.We will be discussing Default Gateway on a Host and on a Switch.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 10 - Basic Router ConfigurationPart C - Configure the Default GatewayPodcast Number: 50-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Configure Interfaces.We will be discussing Configure Router Interfaces, Configure Router Interfaces Example, Verify Interface Configuration, and Configuration Verification Commands.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 10 - Basic Router ConfigurationPart B - Configure InterfacesPodcast Number: 49-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Configure Initial Router Settings.We will be discussing , Basic Router Configuration Steps, and a Basic Router Configuration Example.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 10 - Basic Router ConfigurationPart A - Configure Initial Router SettingsPodcast Number: 48-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at IPv6 Neighbor Discovery.We will be discussing IPv6 Neighbor Discovery Messages, IPv6 Neighbor Discovery - Address Resolution.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 9 - Address ResolutionPart C - IPv6 Neighbor DiscoveryPodcast Number: 47-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Address Resolution Protocol (ARP).We will be discussing ARP Overview, ARP Functions, Removing Entries from an ARP Table, ARP Tables on Networking Devices, and ARP Issues-ARP Broadcasts and ARP Spoofing.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 9 - Address ResolutionPart B - Address Resolution Protocol (ARP)Podcast Number: 46-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at MAC and IP.We will be discussing Destinations on Same Network and on Remote Network.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 9 - Address ResolutionPart A - MAC and IPPodcast Number: 45-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment 

In this episode we are going to look at Introduction to Routing.We will be discussing Router Packet Forwarding Decision, IP Router Routing Table, Static Routing, Dynamic Routing, and an Introduction to an IPv4 Routing Table.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 8 - Network LayerPart E - Introduction to RoutingPodcast Number: 44-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment  

In this episode we are going to look at How a Host Routes.We will be discussing Host Forwarding Decision, Default Gateway, A Host Routes to the Default Gateway, and Host Routing Tables.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 8 - Network LayerPart D - How a Host RoutesPodcast Number: 43-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment  

In this episode we are going to look at IPv6 Packet.We will be discussing Limitations of IPv4, IPv6 Overview, IPv4 Packet Header Fields in the IPv6 Packet Header, and IPv6 Packet Header.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 8 - Network LayerPart C - IPv6 PacketPodcast Number: 42-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment  

In this episode we are going to look at IPv4 Packet.We will be discussing IPv4 Packet Header and IPv4 Packet Header Fields.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 8 - Network LayerPart B - IPv4 PacketPodcast Number: 41-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment  

In this episode we are going to look at Network Layer Characteristics.We will be discussing The Network Layer, IP Encapsulation, Characteristics of IP, Connectionless, Best Effort, and Media Independent.Thank you so much for listening to this episode of my series on Introduction to Networks for the Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA).Once again, I'm Kevin and this is KevTechify. Let's get this adventure started.All my details and contact information can be found on my website, https://KevTechify.com-------------------------------------------------------Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA)Introduction to Networks v1 (ITN)Episode 8 - Network LayerPart A - Network Layer CharacteristicsPodcast Number: 40-------------------------------------------------------Equipment I like.Home Lab ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/home-labNetworking Tools ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/networking-toolsStudio Equipment ►► https://kit.co/KevTechify/studio-equipment  

This interview features Brendan Gahan, Partner and Chief Social Officer at Mekanism. We discuss working with OG YouTubers like Smosh back in 2005, founding Epic Signal and selling it to his former employer, hanging out in El Salvador's Bitcoin Beach, why it takes him 100 drafts to publish content, the future of the creator economy, and learning how to enjoy what you create.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com---EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up. A podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Brendan Gahan:I felt like my strengths could be better utilized going off on my own. It was really as simple as, well, I want to do this work the way that I know how to do it and the way I want to do it. And if that takes me going off on my own, then that's what I'm going to do. So I did. In hindsight, it sounds much smarter than it was. It was not smart from like an on paper standpoint, but I just felt like it was the right thing for me to do because I've been doing it longer than most people, I have relationships, I have a sense of what strategically works. I want to do it the way that I want to do it. Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Brendan Gahan, partner and chief social officer at Mekanism. So Brendan was born in Ventura, California, and grew up surfing many local breaks. But although his parents were educators, he entered college without a career focus. But just a few weeks away from graduation, a last minute call from his uncle sparked his entry to media and advertising, and he never looked back. His career started at a creative agency working on some of the first YouTube campaigns with hit creators like Anthony Padilla and Ian Hecox's Smosh. With a growing reputation as a social and digital expert, Brendan eventually started his own agency, Epic Signal, which he ended up selling to Mekanism. Chris Erwin:Today, Brendan is their chief social officer. On the side he also publishes a wide array of content, making it one of the industry's most well regarded thought leaders. Some highlights of our chat include what it was like to sell his company to his former employer, why he's hanging out in El Salvador's Bitcoin Beach, how it took him 100 videos to post his first TikTok, the future of the creator economy, and learning how to enjoy what you create. All right, let's get to it. Chris Erwin:Brendan, thanks for being on The Come Up Podcast. Brendan Gahan:Thanks for having me, pumped to be here. Chris Erwin:We were just having a little chat about, you got a surf in this morning, if that's right. Brendan Gahan:I did. I'm working in El Salvador this week in a little town called Zonte, people may have heard of it referred to as Bitcoin Beach. And there's a nice little right hand point here, so made sure to get out there. Chris Erwin:Are you regular foot or goofy foot? Brendan Gahan:I'm regular, yeah. Chris Erwin:Okay, so you like the right-handers. I'm goofy, I like to go left. Brendan Gahan:Yeah, right hand point in particular, it's like my favorite kind of wave. I grew up in Ventura. So grew up surfing C Street, at the point in Ventura. And then every once in a while I would make the trek up to Rincon and stuff. Chris Erwin:I'm curious, where exactly did you grow up? Were you in the LA County or were you up north? Brendan Gahan:No, I was in Ventura. So there's Ventura County, which encompasses quite a bit of Southern California, but I grew up in the city of Ventura, maybe three quarters of a mile away from the beach, it's like a 15-minute walk or so, and yeah, it was great. Chris Erwin:Great. And do you still have family that's in Ventura? Brendan Gahan:Parents are still there. I've got some aunts, uncles, cousins in the area. And then my younger sister lives, she's still in Ventura County, but about 30 minutes away from where we grew up. Chris Erwin:I often talk about Southern California real estate. And you look at one of the few pockets in SoCal that's near the beach that has been underdeveloped is definitely Ventura. I think that's true for the last 30 years. I think that's finally starting to change, particularly during COVID and remote work. Have you seen that there? Brendan Gahan:Oh my gosh, it's crazy. I was just there this past weekend. And there's all these developments going up, like apartment complexes and condos, and yeah, it's sort of interesting. When you look at Ventura on a map, there's sort of like this no man's land between LA and Santa Barbara. And for years, Ventura was just sort of like overlooked. It was like people would pass through Ventura to go to either Santa Barbara or LA, but then more and more Ojai started to become a place, and Ventura has become a bit of a destination and there's now some startups out there. Before the biggest company there was Patagonia. Ventura, growing up was sort of like this blue collar cowboy meets surfer vibe for the most part. And yeah, that's definitely evolving. Chris Erwin:I think cowboy meets surfer vibe sounds about as good as it can get, you know? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, yeah. Chris Erwin:I forget who, but when I was at Big Frame almost 10 years ago now, I remember there were some industry friends that had set up shop in Ventura and were commuting to LA, and it was only about like an hour, hour and 15 away, not that crazy if you timed it right. So curious, looking at you being at the nexus of digital media and advertising and all the things, were there any media influences when you were there, when you were younger? Did that come from your parents or anything like that? Or was your upbringing focused on completely different things? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, definitely not. LA seemed like the furthest thing in the world to me growing up. And it seemed like a city, it may as well have been New York in my mind. Even though it was only like an hour and a half, we would go to LA on a field trip every couple years, or maybe my parents would take us there and we'd visit a museum or something like that. But it was not like a destination that was really on my radar. And from a professional standpoint where my head was at, I sort of had the cliche jobs in mind, it was like, oh, okay, maybe I'll be a teacher or a lawyer. A lot of people I knew growing up, and a number of relatives were like firemen, so my mind was sort of gravitating towards, I thought I'd either be a doctor, a lawyer or a psychologist. So I didn't have much of like a media or a tech influence until later. Chris Erwin:What did your parents do? Brendan Gahan:They were both in education. So my mom was a teacher's assistant in resource classes. And then my dad initially was like a teacher and then became a principal at a number of the special education schools in Ventura County. And then when he retired, he was the director of special education in Ventura. So education ran deep in the family, I guess. Chris Erwin:Yes. No, clearly understood. But I think you mentioned that you had an uncle that was in the media space, right? Brendan Gahan:That's right. Yeah, yeah. So I had an uncle who worked in advertising and he was at Wieden+Kennedy like in the heyday when it was like Bonos, Air Jordan, all that, when it was as big as it could get, and they lived a ways away. But whenever I saw him, I would just like pepper him with a million questions because to me, somebody working in advertising, in particular on like Nike and in that era, it wasn't just ads. It was like shifting culture, like Spike Lee and all that stuff. So I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. And I'd always ask him a million questions about it. But in my mind I never thought that I would end up working in that space. It seemed like this extra terrestrial sort of thing. Brendan Gahan:But he was always really cool. And he was like a creative director doing a lot of the Air Jordan spots and that sort of thing. So he always had funny stories he would share. And I just thought it was the coolest thing. I remember being in like elementary school, he'd visit or we'd go visit him, and I'd just pepper him with questions. So it was always sort of like seated in the back of my mind, but at the same time it felt unattainable, but I was really fortunate. Brendan Gahan:I don't know if we want to skip ahead too much, but basically he ended up offering me my first internship, totally came out of the blue. I got a phone call one day, I was like two days away from graduating from college. And I was about to go home for summer and work, and yeah, just out of the blue, he's like, "Hey, I got this guy on my team," he had started his own agency at this point, he's like, "And we need some young kid who understands digital," because this is 2005. And so I came up there and I interviewed with this guy he wanted me to intern for- Chris Erwin:But you did not go to college for this, if I understand correctly, you went to, is it UC Santa Cruz and you were psychology and history? Brendan Gahan:Yep. Yep. Chris Erwin:And again, you thought with that you were going to follow in your parents' footsteps, become an educator, or become a lawyer. Brendan Gahan:Something like that, yeah, I thought I was zeroing in on like teacher, lawyer or psychologist. I wasn't really sure what I was going to do. And psychology I always thought was fascinating. So I studied that, and then I realized two, three years in, I was like, oh, I've taken a ton of history courses and if I just take a few more, I can get a double major in apparently history, because of all the writing and stuff if I remember correctly, it was like not a bad thing to have if you were looking to get into law school. So it just kind of like was a circuitous path to get where I ended up. Chris Erwin:It didn't feel like you were overly passionate about anything at that point. I think you were open minded and you had some, call it nuclear, familial inspirations or influences. But when you got this call from your uncle, you're like, hey, this has been the cool uncle that was part of these massive sociocultural movements, Michael Jordan and Nike, I totally hear you. So when you got that call, were you really pumped up or was it, oh no, this sounds like something interesting and there's some direction and let's just go see what happens. Brendan Gahan:I was really pumped. I was also really torn because I was going to go home and work as a teacher's assistant for the summer and do summer school, which I know my parents were sort of excited about on so many different levels, because I'd be home. They would see me. They loved the idea of me getting into education, at least I'm pretty sure that's what they were excited about. And so I was like very torn, but also super excited. Brendan Gahan:And I went out and drove up to San Francisco for the interview. And I still remember walking into the ad agency office for the first time just being like, holy shit, this is so fucking cool. This is an office, people work out of here. It was like this creative space. And I remember thinking, especially as a college kid, wow, there's like a beer fridge and your pool table, and all these things. And obviously I knew work was happening, but it seemed like a great environment to get work done. I don't think I ever overdid it on any of the fun things, but it was like this relief to sort of have that there, and it felt really exciting to me. Chris Erwin:So then you get the job and you move up north. Brendan Gahan:Yep. Chris Erwin:What were you focused on in the beginning there? And then, I think from our notes that you did some early work with Smosh, is that right? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, exactly. So I did an internship and then I eventually got hired, and I was technically like a junior account executive. This was 2005, 2006, 2007, I think, and it was in the early, early days of social media and I was the youngest guy in the office. So people would ask me random questions, like, "What's the deal with MySpace, what happens on that?" Or, like Facebook, nobody else could get on Facebook because you still had to have your college email address. So I sort of found myself being this resource, and at the same time me being flabbergasted by the way advertising was being done. Brendan Gahan:I remember the first time I found out how much a billboard cost, and looking at that and being like, this is almost more than, I mean, I can't remember the number right now, but I remember thinking, this is about as much I make in a full year with my salary and being like, I don't think anyone does anything because of the billboard, or certainly not like a normal billboard ad, and seeing this huge disconnect between what drove people to do things and what people were genuinely excited about and where dollars were being allocated. Brendan Gahan:So I think I slowly started just embracing that and being like, to me, it was common sense to a certain extent, like, look, I can go on YouTube and I can see how many people watch this video. Why aren't we doing this? This shows millions of people. Once again, like walking down the street, I don't know of anybody who does anything because of a billboard. And so that sort of evolved, and I started just pitching ideas proactively. And I remember I even tried to pitch clients and stuff, and stuff I in hindsight probably didn't have- Chris Erwin:Existing clients of the agency, or were you doing some new business development? Brendan Gahan:All of the above. I remember reading about it in the ad trades, like, oh, so and so company fired their agency and I'd be like, well, why don't they work with us? And literally come up with ideas and mail them things, and like try and get a response. And I don't know, just like this sort of, we're a creative industry, let's be really creative. Chris Erwin:Was that the expectation from your role or was that you just having some gumption of being a self-starter? Brendan Gahan:Not to pat myself on the back, but I think it was definitely me sort of having a little bit of gumption. I think I also just didn't know. It was a relatively small loose agency. And so I thought, well, it wasn't like this is exactly how you're supposed to do this job, and this, this and this, I think creativity was really encouraged and so long as work was getting done, anything I wanted to do sort of beyond that was like, all right, yeah, sure, that sounds cool. Chris Erwin:So did that spirit, is that what drove you... Did you work directly with Smosh? What is that story there? Brendan Gahan:Yeah. So late 2006, this client the agency had had before I was even there, they came to the agency and they were like, "Hey, we want to do an ad campaign. We don't have a big budget." And it was a portable MP3 player. And the partners at the agency were talking about it right behind me. And they were about to turn it down. And it was one of those situations where in hindsight, yes, it was not much money, and they should have turned it down by all means. But I just butted in. I was like, "Hey, what if we pitched them this idea of getting these kids on YouTube to promote it. And we just rather than try and squeeze like a campaign into this budget, let's just do one video." Brendan Gahan:And so they were like, "Oh, that sounds kind of cool. Yeah, let's pitch it to the company, to the brand." And they bought it. I think I literally turned around after the partners said it was okay to pitch it to the client and I emailed Ian and Anthony, found their email on MySpace and they emailed me back that afternoon. And I think the next week they came by the office because they were just up in Sacramento area, so it wasn't too far. Chris Erwin:They were one of the biggest YouTube channels at the time, right? Just for context, this is 2005, 2006. Facebook had just started in '04. YouTube had just started in '04. Google bought them I think a couple years later. So Ian and Anthony were probably one of the biggest personalities on the platform at that time. Brendan Gahan:Yeah. I think they might have been number two. I know they eventually were number one for a couple of years, but I don't think they were quite number one yet. It was sort of like early days and there was a lot of jostling for position and stuff. Chris Erwin:So you got their emails from their MySpace page, you hit them up. That definitely wouldn't happen today, not as easy to go direct to the top creators. And then they came by your office, what happened? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, they came by, by that point we had gotten the thumbs up from the client to like, "Oh yeah, sure, we're down, if you can make it work." They came by the office, we literally got in a room and it was sort of funny. I remember nobody knew what you would charge for something like this, you know? So we were literally just kicking around like, what would you want to charge for this? I don't know, how much do you want to pay for this? Just going back and forth. And then finally, one of the partners was like, "Well, I don't know, would you guys do it for like 15 grand or something?" And they were like, "Probably, why don't we go back to..." I think Anthony's dad was an accountant or something like that. Brendan Gahan:And they were going to run it by him. I might have those details wrong, but they were like, it was basically like a, pretty sure that'll work. Let's go talk to our parents. And then they came back and they were like, sure, and so we did it, they made this video called Feet for Hands. I remember when it went live it crashed the client's website, which I thought was so fucking cool. I felt so validated. And then, yeah, it got like millions of views. And I just wanted to do that again and again, and again. And I saw what Mekanism was doing and my first boss at that agency, he'd left for Mekanism, Jason Harris, the president and CEO of Mekanism now. He joined Mekanism, became a partner. And we had a great working relationship. Brendan Gahan:I interned for him and stuff. And I showed in that video, I was like, look, look, look at this thing. It's got three million views. I know I can help you guys. I was so envious of the work they were doing. They were doing like early viral video stuff. And this is like 2006, 2007, when a lot of this stuff, people weren't paying attention at all. And so I was just so envious of the projects they were working on. And they brought me in for a few interviews and I literally met the whole agency, which at the time was pretty small, I think like twice. And then they hired me. Chris Erwin:Was this East Coast based? Brendan Gahan:This is all West Coast. They were in San Francisco, just a few blocks away from the office I was at, at the time, and then got hired, it was like Mekanism was doing a ton of branded content, viral video stuff but oftentimes without any paid media. The platforms, most of them didn't even have paid media as an option. I think at the time you could buy a YouTube homepage banner and that was it. Facebook didn't have it. There was no sort of formal way of promoting that stuff for the most part. So we sort of, myself and a couple other guys, younger guys, we built out a team over time that was the social media team. And we were just constantly coming up with different ways to promote content, doing everything from Reddit seeding to tons and tons of work with creators. We worked with all the big creators in those early days, which was great, because it was a small community. We got to make a lot of deeper relationships at the time. Chris Erwin:Yeah. And you were probably working with a lot of those creators direct versus now there's tons of representatives, managers and agencies, and sometimes you never even talk to the end talent, but back then probably different. Brendan Gahan:Oh, 100%, yeah. We would get pretty elaborate sometimes with these campaigns, we would do like in person summits and kickoffs. We worked with 20th Century Fox on some campaigns, and we would fly like 50 influencers in and a bunch obviously would be in LA, but host these elaborate dinners and events, and sometimes it'd be two, three days long where they're meeting with the execs, meeting with actors, kind of getting a download of the campaign, what the expectations were for them. Then we'd take them out, go partying. So it was cool. Got to spend a lot of face time with people and it was a really fascinating time. Chris Erwin:You were there for about five to six years at Mekanism, right? Brendan Gahan:Yeah. Chris Erwin:And then I think you transitioned to full screen after that for a brief stint, but then you started your own agency, Epic Signal. So what was the catalyst for you to leave this kind of the broader corporate support and other people that were helping elevate your career to say, I want to do something differently, I'm going to do it by myself. Brendan Gahan:I felt like full screen was exploding at the time. You know this, all the MCNs were blowing up, but I felt like there was a lot of distraction and stuff. And the thing that I was really passionate about at its core was the strategy in collaborating with both brands and creators to create something awesome. And I felt like full screen, it was like they were trying to grow this MCN, this network and make a scalable business. So it was a little bit different from what I was really passionate about. And so I left, I thought I was just going to take my time sort of consulting. But I mean, this was like when influencer marketing was reaching this new fevered pitch because... We talked about it yesterday. Sometime around there, Maker was acquired, all these clients that I'd worked with and people at different agencies that I'd worked with over the years came out of the woodwork and were like, we have to have an influencer strategy. Brendan Gahan:We have to have a YouTube strategy. And I'd been the, air quotes, like YouTube guy and influencer guy since 2006. So I was one of a handful of people who had sort of like this deep bench and experience in this niche. So all my old clients started hitting me up. All of a sudden I had more work than I could personally do. And slowly started hiring people just out of necessity, because I didn't want to say no to these awesome opportunities. I was like, oh crap. I get to work with Mountain Dew, hell yeah, let's do it. Chris Erwin:I do want to clarify, but when you went off on your own, I mean I'm sure look, as the industry is growing, Google original channels program happened in 2011, 2012, hundreds of millions of dollars of funding into digitally native production companies to fuel the overall video ecosystem to help you to recruit more advertisers. And so when you decided to go off on your own to start Epic Signal, why was that? Had you always wanted to be an entrepreneur? Did you think like, hey, I want to be an owner and I'm early in a very nascent industry and so this is scary, but I'm going to get an early foothold and see what happens. Brendan Gahan:It honestly wasn't as strategic as that, it was more like, I felt like my strengths could be better utilized going off on my own. And I like being really hands on and strategic. It was really as simple as, well, I want do this work the way that I know how to do it and the way I want to do it. And if that takes me going off on my own, then that's what I'm going to do. So I did. And in hindsight, it sounds much smarter than it was, it was not smart from like an on paper standpoint. I left full screen. I left my equity on the tape because I left just shy of a year, but I just felt like it was the right thing for me to do, because I knew, I'd seen this space grow so fast and I was like, I've been doing it longer than most people. I have relationships, I have a sense of what strategically works. I want to do it the way that I want to do it. And that just made me feel good, and so that's what I did. Chris Erwin:Now did you launch Epic Signal in LA or did you move to New York? Brendan Gahan:So I was in LA, but very quickly was splitting my time up between LA and New York. I was going back and forth. I'd spend two weeks in LA, two weeks in New York, back, forth, back forth constantly, and then was about to move to New York officially, I ended up having more clients there than anywhere else, more brands I was working with there than anywhere else. And then as I was sort of putting the plan together to do that, I ended up selling it. And then I had to move to New York, so it moved things along. Chris Erwin:That happened pretty quickly, right? Because I think you had Epic Signal for, was it a couple years before you sold it to Mekanism? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, I think it was just shy of two years. It was almost two full years, yeah. Chris Erwin:Okay. And when you decided to sell, how big was your team at that point? Brendan Gahan:It wasn't big. It was like a half dozen people. Chris Erwin:Okay. Why did you decide to sell? Brendan Gahan:I found myself in a situation where I was doing so much back office stuff. It was like the very thing that I left to go do was, I wanted to focus on the strategy and deal with that, do the actual work. And then what I found was, when you are an entrepreneur, it's very easy to get sucked into dealing with lawyers and accounts, and payroll, and all this stuff that is not fun, all that back office stuff. Chris Erwin:I'm feeling you right now on that. That's where I feel like I'm at with RockWater. Brendan Gahan:You try and delegate it, but it's like all these things get this overflow back to you. And so I was back in this situation where I was doing the work that wasn't making me happy. And at the same time, I sort of felt like I have this window of opportunity where it's like, this is a really small team, we're lean and mean. We've got great profit margins. We've also got dope clients. We were working with like ABI. We worked on Bud Light campaigns, Corona. We did work with several PepsiCo brands, a handful of others. So we had a dope roster of clients that we were working with, a handful of whom were on retainer. And I was like, we have this niche where we're focusing on helping brands with YouTube strategy and YouTube creators. And oftentimes, especially the bigger brands, like a Pepsi, Mountain Dew, they had multiple agencies and they would have like a social AOR even. Brendan Gahan:And they did have a social AOR, but I was like, it's only going to be a matter of time before I get squeezed out and they start offering this services that I'm sort of in this interesting niche I can offer at this time that they don't have. And so I felt like the cache of the brands that I had, the team in place, people would find it desirable because of the relationships and already booked revenue, and great team. And so I thought I'll try and capitalize on my time and see if I can make a deal happen. Brendan Gahan:And then I had a letter of intent on the table and I would call my old boss at Mekanism for advice. "Hey, I'm negotiating with these guys, and this is a deal on the table. Does this make sense? What should I push back on?" So he was aware that things were moving along. And basically I was in New York, I had signed a letter of intent, things were sort of going through due diligence and all that. And he was like, "Let's grab drinks." So I met up with him for a drink. He's like, "Just come back." I was like, "All right, well, I got a deal in hand if you can beat it, I'm down. Like let's do it." I loved working with him. Chris Erwin:Hey listeners, this is Chris Erwin. Your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work. And it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it everybody, let's get back to the interview. Chris Erwin:I have to ask, did you run a formal sales process where you decided to sell and then you're like, all right, here's the 20 best fit buyers that are out there and I'm going to go call them or I'm going to hire someone to dial for dollars on the company's behalf. And/or were you also just getting unsolicited in bounds that you were like, oh, hey, this is interesting. Maybe with the market timing, things that you were sharing, where there was a lot of brands had big agencies of record, you felt that you were going to get squeezed out. So now is the time to sell, what was that looking like? Brendan Gahan:Exactly that, but sort of like the inverse. Initially, I sort of had a hunch and so I sort of informally had some conversations and dinners with people where like, I didn't come right out and say, "Hey, I want to sell," I didn't want to come across as desperate. Because I mean, and I wasn't, I wasn't desperate, but I wanted to sell. But I would sort of just seed the idea, like, "Hey, I'm kicking around the idea of selling, I'd love to do X, Y, and Z. And like' Chris Erwin:Just like dating, the classic courting phase, you're just doing the dance. Brendan Gahan:Exactly. And then once people started expressing interests, I was like, okay, I'm definitely onto something. This is something I'm way out of my depth on. So I asked around and some buddies recommended some lawyers and I hired them and signed a deal with them. And I was like, all right, let's make this happen. And that was the best decision I could have made. They earned every dime I paid them and then some, because beyond just the relief of handing it over, they definitely got me more money and I didn't ever have to be the bad guy throughout the process, which I'm very bad at saying no to people in negotiations and stuff like that. They were just like, every step of the way they were like, "No, just pass it over to us. We'll take care of it." And then they would hit me up and they're like, "Here's what's on the table, here's what we advise. What do you want to do?" And the process was stressful enough as it is, but having them sort of take the reins just alleviated so much stress. Chris Erwin:Selling your company is a very unique work stream that requires a very unique set of skills to execute well. And it can be very emotional for a founder, operator and CEO. This is your baby. You could transform your life through a big liquidity event, but it's also going to impact, you might be selling to another company and working for someone else. So having a partner there to guide you along the way is really important. I mean, I saw this a lot because I was a banker on Wall Street back in the day and sold a variety of different companies and helped shepherd the sale with Big Frame to Awesomeness TV. I just talked about that in the last podcast with Sarah Penna, one of the co-founders of Big Frame, and it's a really big decision. Chris Erwin:So I totally get it. I'm curious, who were the buyers that you were talking to? Was it different brand agencies? Was it different brands that wanted to actually just bring you on in house? Was it some of the emerging YouTube MCNs that wanted to build out their influencer sales arm? What was that group looking like? Brendan Gahan:I think it was two MCNs and this holding company, I won't name names and stuff, but it was a fascinating process. And to your point about seeing it and it being stressful and all this stuff, if you think about it, it's like, it's an experience that, as an owner or an entrepreneur you're out of your depth, it's a very unique thing that happens. It doesn't happen that often. And so bringing in professionals is so helpful because they actually do these deals. I'm doing totally different types of deals. I have no experience selling an organization. Chris Erwin:Yeah. You need to create a very compelling story and also urgency, get people excited and the feeling that they're going to miss out. So if you kind of go after the process willy nilly, you can set up a really bad result for your company. And also for your counterparties that are saying, "Hey, we're interested here. We've been in talks for a while. Why is this dragging along? Who else are you talking to?" Chris Erwin:So you can really damage, not only all the value that you've created for your business, but it can impact your team, it can impact the ability of you to continue working in the industry thereafter. So got to do it right. But so many say, I was just talking to a banker about this yesterday. Oftentimes, transactions result from long standing relationships and trust that have been built. So the end buyer for Epic Signal was your past boss at Mekanism, that became your eventual home. So after you joined forces with them, was the mandate, "Hey Brendan, come back on board. You're now part of the senior leadership team. The market opportunity is even bigger. Let's go after it with you and your whole team in a bigger way." Brendan Gahan:Pretty much, yeah. It was a bit of a plug and play option, they had... Obviously there was a social team when I left, the feeling was like there wasn't... A number of people had left by the time I came back, so I was able to bring my team in, merge it with the existing team. And we started expanding the offerings again. When I was running Epic Signal, I deliberately tried to keep it very narrow in niche, because I couldn't compete with a big social agency, it just wouldn't happen. Brendan Gahan:But by having two very key offerings, it streamlined so much of the processes and it gave me a clear point of differentiation. And when I joined back up with Mekanism, it was like full service, social, we're doing everything, community management in the lightweight, social content creation, analytics, reporting, influencer marketing, all this stuff. And so had to scale up the team and integrate with the larger organization as a whole. And it was fun. I think I'm sort of like this entrepreneur at heart or intrapreneur, and I like the process of sort of building and evolving and exploring new opportunities. So it was a really good fit, is a good fit. Chris Erwin:Thinking back on all of the brand and influencer campaigns that you've done, there's got to be one or two that stand out in terms of just something crazy went down. I think back to at Big Frame, working with some talent, doing a six figure brand deal, talent deciding literally two hours before something's supposed to go live that they're not going to post it or having a meltdown on the floor of VidCon and sobbing and crying because they're having a personal breakdown, because look, that life is tough and burnout is real in the influencer space. I remember a bunch of stories when we were launching different content verticals and flying in different 40 creators into like a creator house. This is like back in 2013, before there was like the modern creator houses of today. So any stories from the trenches that you remember from your early days? Brendan Gahan:Oh my God. Yeah, it's like, working with creators I think is one of those things, when you're in it, you're almost like, I'm never going to do this again. Then afterwards you're like, oh, that wasn't so bad. That was really fun. I think probably one that took the cake as far as stress goes, was we were working with Brisk Iced Tea, which is a PepsiCo brand. And we're about to host a summit because Brisk was relaunching, they had Eminem in the super bowl spot, and they were reviving the Claymation look. They did one with Ozzy Osborne, they did one with Danny Trejo, and we were actually having Danny Trejo fly out to New York, and he was going to meet with all these creators and stuff. And this was during the winter before super bowl. So I don't know if it was like December or January, or maybe early February, but there was a massive snowstorm. Brendan Gahan:Flights kept getting canceled and delayed. And I remember being glued to my phone, refreshing constantly, looking at, I think there were a handful of flights that were going to make it out of LA to New York before things were going to get canceled. And I remember, we signed up all these creators, Danny Trejo was going to show and he was going to be the cool, shiny object, and his flight to New York. I remember it kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed, it got canceled. We got him on another flight, delayed, delayed, delayed. And I was just like refreshing my phone and being like, this whole thing is going to fucking fall apart if that flight doesn't take off. It sounds like not that big a deal right now but I remember it was just one of those moments where I was just like, the whole thing was going to fall apart. The world was on my shoulders and I was just freaking out. But I've had a million situations like that, I remember- Chris Erwin:Did that work out? Did he get on the flight and did the campaign come together? Brendan Gahan:Oh yeah, he ended up [crosstalk 00:34:02]. Chris Erwin:He's like, I can't leave the audience hanging. Brendan Gahan:Yeah. He made it and it was freaking amazing. We thought we had him for like an hour, he was going to do a little talk, kind of talk about... His story's amazing first off. And then his spot with Brisk was super cool. And we thought people were going to get a kick out of that. I think we had like 45 minutes for him booked. He was going to come out and hang out and talk with the creators. I think it was like 20 or so creators. And we thought that was going to be this awesome experience for everyone before we sort of called it a day and then went out. And he was so cool. He came out, told this story, which is insane. And then he was like, "All right, what are we doing next, guys?" And he hung out... We had all these YouTubers there. Brendan Gahan:We had like Nice Peter and Mike Diva, and Tim DeLaGhetto, all those guys. And he made himself available to do cameos and their vlogs or any content they were making. Chris Erwin:Wow. Brendan Gahan:People would be like, "Hey, can you pretend to choke me out and beat me up for my video?" And he'd be like, "Oh sure." He just was there hanging out all day. And then we were going to take all the creators out to a dinner, take them to [inaudible 00:35:10] or one of those, where drinking and bowling and stuff. And he's like, "Oh, could I come along?" He doesn't drink. So he didn't drink. But he was hanging with the whole crew, all of us until, I don't know, like one in the morning or something. He was the nicest guy, and so it was this amazing sort of transition from like the day before, one of the most stressful experiences of my life. I don't think I slept that night to everything went off better than I could have possibly hoped for. Chris Erwin:I just want to call that out. I think that's one of the beautiful things about working with digitally native creators and being in the advertising business, is meeting all these incredible personalities. So I think Danny Trejo, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think he's LA born, Latin, very tatted up, I think had a pretty rough upbringing, but made his way into American movies and TV series. And he often plays like the bad guy or the thug and maybe those roles have been evolving, but what you see on screen- Brendan Gahan:It's pretty spot on. Chris Erwin:Yeah, what you see on screen is clearly very different than who his actual personality is, and were it not for what you're doing, Brendan, you would never have gotten to meet him, and you probably have hundreds of stories like that, that's a pretty beautiful thing. Brendan Gahan:We did one campaign with Virgin Mobile, they were sponsoring Lady Gaga's tour at the time, we got to go hang out with Lady Gaga after one of her shows like, it was wild. I bring up celebrities, but I think honestly hanging out with the creators was my favorite thing, because especially back then, there was a lot of uncertainty in terms of like, how am I going to turn this into a job? Or this is my job, but I'm just kind of scraping by. And it was an interesting mix of sort of a lot of belief in what they were doing, which I found super admirable, and I was almost envious of the fact that they took that leap as well as this sort of insecurity and doubt that they had. Brendan Gahan:There's so much pressure to keep making content and to power through, but at the same time, not knowing exactly where it was headed. You think back then, like the daily vloggers, that was a big thing in that era, those guys, we would spend all day with them doing stuff for the brand. And then when other people would go have dinner and drinks late into the night, they would have to go edit and they'd be editing until like three in the morning, running on [crosstalk 00:37:21] of sleep. Yeah. Chris Erwin:You ask what kids want to be nowadays, they want to be a creator, but whether it's a daily vlogger, or you're creating content, you're managing a fandom that is always on, and that's a lot to take on and that's why there's burnout. And I hear you, some of those early creators, they were probably just racing because they're like, hey, I have put all my resources into this, all my focus. Maybe this goes away in a couple years because the fans' interests and the passions are going to change or the algorithms are going to change and maybe this is not going to be here. So it was like a money land grab. Chris Erwin:But Brendan, when you say that you would look at creators and say, oh, I was jealous how they took the leap, maybe I want to take the leap as well. You took that leap during COVID and you started really building out your own personal audience and thought leadership. And that speaks to that you like to do things on the side. I think you have a strong entrepreneurial or intrapreneurial spirit as you described. And I don't think it just started over the past couple years. I think when we were talking in advance of this interview, you were investing back in the day as well. And I think that you were an early investor in Big Frame, is that right? Brendan Gahan:So I did invest in Big Frame, but via Mekanism because I knew Sarah from back in the day when she was working for Phil DeFranco. And so when she was starting it, I was like, oh my gosh, can we get in? So yeah, we made this small investment and I just sort of wanted to be a part of all that. I definitely had like a serious case of FOMO. Chris Erwin:Yeah. I think that was really cool. I think Sarah and Steve, we actually had a bunch of different creators and I think peer business partners in our cap table, a way of giving them ownership as a thank you, helping us build this together. And so when we sold, all those creators that were in our cap table got some money. Was it life changing money? No, but it was something. And I think they really represented a pretty special ethos from the top. Brendan Gahan:That's awesome. That's so cool. Chris Erwin:But yeah, and you are also early on and I think you still are, you're an advisor to the VidCon board, is that right? Brendan Gahan:Yeah. So I sit on the advisory board for the industry track specifically. So I mean, I've been to all the US VidCons, a bunch of the international ones. So I was always deep in that space. And I've known Jim since the Revision3 days, he was, Jim Louderback the CEO was the CEO of Revision3, which was one of the big early MCNs. And I'm not sure exactly to be honest how that came about other than... But I think what prompted it was as part of the acquisition of Viacom for VidCon, Jim came on board and I think it was a way to make sure that, I think he put together a few advisory boards to make sure that he was getting a lot of input from multiple points, because for so long the community was relatively insular, and its expanded so much so quickly. Chris Erwin:I first met you, I think via an introduction from Chas, Chas Lacaillade who I think was an early interview on this podcast. You guys overlapped at full screen back in 2013 and then have both built your own businesses after that, pretty funny track. And first met you in New York. And I remember a conversation a year and a half ago or a couple years ago, I was asking, what are you focused on? What are you doing? You're a dabbler in so many things, you're at Mekanism, but I'm seeing that you're doing all this incredible thought leadership on LinkedIn, all these incredible posts and you're really consistent about it. Chris Erwin:They were really high quality. And you said, "Hey Chris, I'm really focused on building an audience. And I think audience in the modern creator economy is one of the most valuable currencies that you can have." And you weren't completely clear what you wanted to do with that audience, but you're like, I'm going to build and now's a great time to do it. So I am curious to hear that story of how that came to be and what you're working on today. Brendan Gahan:You probably said that so much more articulate than I did. I'm going to have to remember that, but yeah. That was definitely the insight. I think the way it came about was sort of like, I was legitimately beating myself up over the fact that I had probably hundreds of pages of writing and thoughts in Google Drive that I'd never published as a blog post. And I would just like constantly beat myself up over this. I'd have what I thought was a great idea. I'd work on a blog post and then it would just sort of get longer and longer and longer and longer. And then eventually it became this daunting task to like push it out, because I had a blog for a while and I would sort of fall into this pattern and then not publish for like a long, long time. Brendan Gahan:And the thing I sort of found was the hardest part was to press publish really. And so I was like, okay, well what's the easiest way I can get myself to kind of overcome that, because I did want an audience. I felt like I had thoughts that I wanted to get out of my own head. And so basically I was like, all right, what is sort of the easiest way to do this and inoculate myself to this idea that this fear of pressing publish. And so I started small and basically I was like, all right, well, I'm going to start posting one thing a day on LinkedIn. It doesn't matter if it's simply sharing an article, just writing cool or writing a whole blog post if I feel like it. And that made it very approachable. Brendan Gahan:In the early days, I would literally just sit there and press a timer, 20 minutes and write. When it was done, I'd give it a once over and then press publish. And that really helped me sort of start to overcome this fear, and did that for all of, what was that 2020 I believe. And then at some point towards the end of 2020, I was like... We'd already done multiple TikTok campaigns and I'd seen the power of TikTok, and like early days, you can still get in there and you can have an impact. Brendan Gahan:It's a softer landing than it will be later. So after seeing all the successful campaigns, I was encouraging my fiance to get on there and do it. And then every time she would post something, it would blow up. Because she had a decent sized YouTube channel and Instagram but it wasn't massive. And I was like, just get on TikTok, trust me. So I found myself sort of giving this advice to everyone, but not taking it myself. And I was like, all right, I should just... These opportunities they only come by every few years if you're lucky, and I was like, I need to just take my own advice. And so in the same way I had to get over writing and sharing my thoughts, I had to get over that with TikTok. Chris Erwin:Yeah, putting yourself on video, that's a big difference than writing and text base expression on LinkedIn. Brendan Gahan:It was so hard. It was so hard. She used to laugh at me because I would put the camera on me and then I would just try and say something, and I would be like, "Fuck, fuck," and then try and say a word and I'd stutter. And I would sit there for like 20 minutes trying to spit out two sentences. Chris Erwin:Brendan, I got to say, I feel you on that because Kevin Gould at Kombo Ventures, he would do these job rec videos on LinkedIn where he'd just be like, call it one or two minutes. "Hey, we're Kombo Ventures, I'm Kevin, we're looking to hire someone, this is what we're doing. And here's who we're looking for." I record these and this is like an inner tip on me. I'll record that like 15 times, it's a one minute video, but I'll say no, I skipped up, I said something I didn't want to say. I don't like how I look. I don't like the lighting, and people think like, oh yeah, you just put it up and that'll be like my one thing I need to get done in the morning, and it'll take me 15 tries to do it. Then you just go to think about, okay, if you're a professional creator doing that for a living, I really feel it then, it's a pretty good glimpse into it. Brendan Gahan:100%. And I think one thing I saw Roberto Blake, maybe, I think I saw a video or saw him tweet, you've got to make 100 bad videos to get to your first good one, or maybe it was Mr. Beast. And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very true. And that sort of made me embrace the fact that the first ones are going to be awful, and I tried to not focus on like each one, but more building the habit because that would, I don't know how else to say it, but sort of inoculate yourself to that feeling of just sheer fear and anxiety of getting in front of the camera. Chris Erwin:On the outside looking in, I look at, we're a big content marketing machine at RockWater to drive awareness and legitimacy for the services that we do as the self-described McKinsey of the creator economy, right? Market research, strategy advisory, capital raising, and all of that. We look at what you're doing, Brendan, from your LinkedIn posts to your blog, to now almost I think over 100,000 followers on TikTok. It's very, very impressive. A lot of people in the industry say the same thing, right? Like, oh, do you see Brendan's path and what he's posting? It's incredible. I look at the TikTok videos. They're very well edited. Are you doing that yourself? Do you have a team helping you? Brendan Gahan:I'm not editing them myself anymore. I was up until late last year. So I hired an editor out of the Philippines actually who works full time on my TikTok. Then he does design for my blog posts and a bunch of different things basically, he helps me out with a bunch of stuff and that's been a huge relief because now I feel like I'm trying to transition to... There's almost sort of like, as a creator and this is something I observe, but I'm having trouble implementing it, sort of like people find you because of your topic is interesting or maybe you've got a helpful bit of information, but then they stick around and embrace you because of kind of the personality piece. Brendan Gahan:And I'm really trying to sort of evolve it into creating something that provides more insight into me at the same time. And hopefully people feel like there's a connection to me rather than like, "Hey, here are just some interesting stats or an interesting strategy." So that's sort of like where my head is at in terms of where I want to take it. I haven't quite figured out how I'm going to do that. But I think similar to just the same way I got started before, I'm just trying to throw things out there and see what sticks. Chris Erwin:Loudly from the RockWater team, keep doing what you're doing. We love it. Brendan Gahan:Oh, thanks. I appreciate that. Chris Erwin:Yeah. A closing theme before we get into some rapid fire questions and close out the interview. What's next for Brendan and Mekanism? And maybe that's a theme of talking about, what do you think is most exciting in the creator economy and how do you want to support it? You've been writing about Web 3 and X to earn models. Is that something that you're thinking a lot about lately? Brendan Gahan:In terms of Mekanism, I really enjoy that. And so long as I get to work with great brands and great people and do great work I'm content. In terms of the creator economy and stuff, I love everything that's happening there. And I do a little bit of investing and advising, and I love nothing more than sort of brainstorming with people who are building, it's so exciting. And I think the aspect of the creator economy that I'm really fascinated by is sort of... Rather than, most of the VCs coming in are like, oh, we're going to build this scalable product for creators. And that's interesting, but I think the thing that's more interesting is sort of the creators building their own brands, and I think right now production and productization, that's sort of the commodity piece. The development of a brand and cultivation of an audience is becoming the differentiator and the most valuable asset. Brendan Gahan:We were talking about that at the beginning, an audience is leverage. And so as we see sort of this transition from like Web 2 to Web 3, where everybody sort of breaks it down, Web 1 was read, Web 2 is read, write, Web 3 is read, write, own. If the creators of platforms and communities within Web 3 are the users and owners, it makes sense that they would be less likely to embrace traditional methods of advertising. There are some stats out there, like 96% of people hate ads. Yeah, nobody likes most advertising. There are great ads, but by and large people don't want advertising. So those who are sort of able to understand how to embrace communities and build communities, they're going to have a leg up as we sort of transition to Web 3. And we're already seeing the ripple effects of this. Brendan Gahan:I mean like iOS 14 impacted the ability to advertise, do targeted advertising. Creators are launching big brands now faster than ever, partnering with creators is the easiest way to have an impact because they've maintained that direct line of communication to their audience. And so I think creators building and owning brands is really exciting. And also, people are like, oh, like creators think it's in this nascent state. And yes, in the grand scheme of things, it is. But there are already multi billion dollar creator brands. It's so funny, I mean, you probably know him, but Richard Ryan, he was a YouTuber back in the day. I used to do a ton of work with him. He and this other YouTuber, Matt Best, they partnered with some other guys a few years back. They were the guys that launched Black Rifle Coffee, which I didn't realize how big that brand was until they IPOed, and like- Chris Erwin:Yeah, they just went public, right? Brendan Gahan:They went public. I actually was in Austin two weeks ago, I hung out with Richard. It was so wild. It's like, that was built, the platform for that initially was YouTubers. So it's really fascinating. And we're seeing all these other great brands, Logan Paul and KSI, their Gatorade competitor, et cetera. I think that aspect of the business, it just shows how powerful these creators are, which I think is really, really exciting. Chris Erwin:The Black Rifle Coffee, we were doing some research into that company a year ago to understand how some of these creator led brands and particularly CPG brands are incubated and looking at their story, and look, I don't want to undersell what they have done, but I think the quality of their coffee is good, but that's not their specialty. It's that they have these personalities behind it. And this ethos founded by former members of the military, pride in country. And they've built an incredible business doing that. And they've gotten a lot of other ambassadors that have helped them build their business along the way. And I think, yeah, it was funny, Chas was telling me about this. I guess you guys maybe hung out with Richard together. I would love to interview Richard on the podcast. So if he's listening, I'm going to be reaching out soon. Brendan Gahan:Richard's a really, really good dude. Chris Erwin:All right. So Brendan, we're going to enter the last segment of this interview. We're going to do a rapid fire, six questions, and the rules are as follows. With these questions, looking for short answers. So one sentence, or maybe even just one to two words, do you understand the rules? Brendan Gahan:Yes. Chris Erwin:Let's get into it. Proudest life moment? Brendan Gahan:Still ahead of me. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do less of in 2022? Brendan Gahan:Emails and late night work sessions. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do more of? Brendan Gahan:IRL time with friends and family. Chris Erwin:Okay. Maybe more time in Bitcoin Beach, down in El Salvador. Brendan Gahan:Yeah. Serious. Chris Erwin:What one to two things drive your success? Brendan Gahan:I'll keep this one short, crippling insecurity. Chris Erwin:Okay. I dig it. Advice for media execs going into 2022? Brendan Gahan:Get your hands dirty. Chris Erwin:Any future startup ambitions? Brendan Gahan:TBD. Chris Erwin:To elaborate on that, that could be some intrapreneurship at Mekanism or other things you're doing on the sides. I think my prediction is, this audience that you're building particularly on TikTok, I think something's going to come out of that in a pretty unique way. Brendan Gahan:So long as I can think and strategize, I'm very content. Chris Erwin:Here's the last one, Brendan, pretty easy. How can people get in contact with you? Brendan Gahan:Just Google my name, Brendan, B-R-E-N-D-A-N, Gahan, G-A-H-A-N. I'm on all the socials. So whatever your platform of choice is, you'll be able to find me. Chris Erwin:Yeah. And his website is great, lots of content there. Brendangahan.com. All right, cool. Brendan, thanks for being on the show. This was a delight. Brendan Gahan:Thank you. This was a lot of fun. I really appreciate you having me on and I love all the content you guys put out, so I'm really stoked to have made the cut and be on this. Chris Erwin:Very welcome, an easy decision. Chris Erwin:Wow. That was a super fun interview. And I really learned a lot. I think that Brendan and I are kindred spirits in a couple ways. One, our mutual love for surfing in Southern California, and two, just the vulnerabilities of putting yourself out there as a content creator. So that was really fun. Quick note, we just hosted our first executive event of 2022 just this past Thursday in LA. We did a media and commerce executive dinner at Chilena. It was awesome. We had an incredible array of guests. I think over 50 people came out and I also hosted a panel about the future of livestream commerce. So we had the head of operations of Popshop Live there, and the founder and CEO of both Verb, which is the parent company of Market.live and also StageTEN, just an awesome chat. It was a lot of fun, really great energy, and we're pumped to do more. Chris Erwin:So I think we're planning a dinner for investors in media and commerce coming up in the fall in New York City. And then also, we want to put another one together for sports media. So if you'd like to get involved as a sponsor, as a guest, or you want to be on a panel that I will moderate, reach out, you can hit us up at hello@wearerockwater.com. And then as always for all you listeners out there of our podcasts, we love to hear from you. If you have any ideas for guests or any feedback on the show, just shoot us a note, TCUpod@wearerockwater.com. All right, that's it everybody. Thanks for listening. Chris Erwin:The Come Up is written and hosted by me, Chris Erwin, and is a production of RockWater Industries. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and remember to subscribe wherever you listen to our show. And if you really dig us, feel free to forward The Come Up to a friend. You can sign up for our company newsletter at wearerockwater.com/newsletter, and you could follow us on Twitter @TCUpod. The Come Up is engineered by Daniel Tureck, music is by Devon Bryant, logo and branding is by Kevin Zazzali, and special thanks to Alex Zirin and Eric Kenigsberg from the RockWater team.