Podcast appearances and mentions of Andy Gordon

Andy Gordon from Cogna is interviewed by Sam and Matti. We learn about Andy's influential work including the origins of the bind symbol in haskell, and the introduction of lambdas in Excel. We go onto discuss his current work at Cogna on using AI to allow non-programmers to write apps using natural language. We delve deeper into the ethics of AI and consider the most likely AI apocalypse.

Writer/Producer Andy Gordon loves writing. He talks about writing for pleasure after all these years. He talks about how the characters can make him laugh or cry in the car. He also talks about breaking into show business on the day he arrived in Hollywood, Jon Landis, Tom Lynch, Chuck Lorre, sending messages to his daughters through his shows, working on Big Bang and Modern Family, and the joys of arrest videos. Bio: Andy Gordon is a writer/producer who worked on KIDS INC, DREAM ON, MAD ABOUT YOU, NEWSRADIO, FOXWORTHY, JUST SHOOT ME (2 pilots + 4 years), DAG, WHAT ABOUT JOAN in Chicago, COMPLETE SAVAGES with the Scullys, BACK TO YOU, TRUE JACKSON, LAST MAN STANDING, FRIEND ME, MYSTERY GIRLS, MODERN FAMILY, BIG BANG THEORY, US OF AL and CALL ME KAT.  Also the movie FIRED UP.

On this week's episode, we have actor Cynthia Mann Jamin (Friends, Ahh! Real Monsters, Angry Beavers and many many more) and we discuss her journey as an actor and director. We also talk about how the two of us met as well as what it's like working together. Tune in for so much more.Show NotesCynthia Mann Jamin IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0542699/Cynthia Mann Jamin on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/prime-video/actor/Cynthia-Mann/amzn1.dv.gti.ca37e830-61b1-44db-8fe5-979422acb482Cynthia Mann Jamin Shop: https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptCynthia Mann Jamin:If it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. I have a very special guest today, the very beautiful and talented, I'm going to call her Cynthia Mann, although she's now currently Cynthia Mann Jamin and she's my wife and Cynthia. I met years ago, I was a writer on a show called Just Shoot Me, and she was the guest star and she was a working actor and she worked on many shows including she was a recurring on Friends. She had, I dunno, five or so or six episodes on Friends Recurring on Veronica's Closet, Seinfeld, er Suddenly Susan Will and Grace, all those shows of the nineties, all those musty TV shows. She did almost all of them. And now she is the director and producer of my one man show as well as the audio book. So I thought a paper orchestra. So she did all of that. So I thought we would talk to her about that and about her experience working in Hollywood as well as directing and producing my audiobook for all of you people who aspire to do something similar. Hello, Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Hi Michael.Michael Jamin:Hello. My beautiful wife. She's in the other room. We're pretending we live far apart, but actually we live very close to each other.Cynthia Mann Jamin:You could say we're roommates.Michael Jamin:This is my roommate, Cynthia. So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you, most of all for producing and directing my show. And I don't know, where do we begin? What should we start with?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I think it's, the thing that's interesting is people might want to know how is it working together and why do we work together?Michael Jamin:I don't have an answer for that. You're cheap labor. That's why we work. I don't have to pay you. Why is that? Why we work together?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, it's funny because it goes all the way back to when we were first dating. I think if you want to talk about that because Go ahead. Well, we love doing projects together.Michael Jamin:Projects, we call them projects. How the Canadians say It. Project,Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, projects. And when we first met it was kind of like, well, we had this common interest of he's a writer, I'm an actor, but it's like you can't sit around all day and just write and act. So we would find common things that we like to take walks, we like to do hiking. I taught you about Run Canyon, you were running in the flats. And I'm like, what the hell are you doing? Why are you running in the flats? Why don't you run up a hill?Michael Jamin:I didn't realize you could. It was so steep. And then you said you ran it. So I said, oh, alright. I guess I could try running it. ICynthia Mann Jamin:Totally ran it. I ran it all the time. I had, I had really muscular legs. YouMichael Jamin:Did. ICynthia Mann Jamin:Know you did. Yeah. And I still do. But yeah, so we would find little things to do and I would take you around LA and get you lafy and teach you what Celestial seasoningsMichael Jamin:AndCynthia Mann Jamin:Stuff. Yes, teaMichael Jamin:Is and also Whole Foods and Mrs. Gooch's. Mrs.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Gooch's. Yeah. This is way back. WeMichael Jamin:Would go to all this. She didn't approve of the supermarkets that I went to. So youCynthia Mann Jamin:Can go in there. I'm not going to get my food there you there though.Michael Jamin:And so many ways You helped me a lot with art because you are an artist. You were a starving artist when I met you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Oh yes. Yeah. Well, barely getting by. I would say would barely getting by. I've had every survival job you can think of. I've done singing telegrams with the monkey that goes like this, and I've done sold shoes and I've waitressed and I've done a million survival jobs. So in my thirties I finally started to get acting jobs and I was a professional dancer for a while. And Grit didn't go to college right away, only finished two years of it. Later in my thirties when I met Michael, I was going to college and working and going on auditions and all of that. And when I met Michael, it was one of those crazy auditions where the casting director, Deb Burki, who I'm forever grateful for, she brought me in just to the callback. She didn't even read me first because we had had a relationship and she always appreciated my work and thought, oh, this is good for Cynthia.Let me just bring her in straight to the producers. And I remember Steve Levitan was there, probably Andy Gordon and Eileen because it was their episode and Eileen Khan and I got that job. She called me the next day and just said, yeah, you got it. And I was like, oh, yay. I'm so excited. And they only booked me for three days. So when I went on the set, it was at Universal because I didn't really know what Just Shoot Me was. It was a new show and I don't think it was airing yet. It was just the first six episodes. So nobody really knew what it was about or the tone or anything. And I just went in, did my scene, went home prepared to come back the next day for shoot day. Really? And you guys sent me a script at nine in the morning or something like that and said, we rewrote your scene because we found a better way to write this scene. I don't know, you can tell me the behind the scenes of that. I don't really know why you did that.Michael Jamin:I don't really remember why that was rewritten. It was a long time ago.Cynthia Mann Jamin:I think it was. Maybe it just wasn't exciting enough or something. And you wanted the dialogue to be between me and Laura more.Michael Jamin:I don'tCynthia Mann Jamin:Remember. Instead of the roommate. And so you guys had me into the writer's room before, which is very unusual. You never really go into a writer's room to work out a scene. But because we were shooting it that day and we had to go straight to the run through and I think the network was going to be there. You didn't want to mess around. And so you gave me notes and we rehearsed it and Laura was there and the other scene partner who, I'm so sorry, I forgot his name. Chris,Michael Jamin:I want to say.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, Chris. And then we just went and shot it. And then I shoot the scene at night and I'm like, oh my God, this was so much fun. And it was great. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to go. And who's standing right next to me as I'm walking off the set and kind of hanging back and it was you.Michael Jamin:It was me,Cynthia Mann Jamin:It was you.Michael Jamin:And then you said you wanted to marry me. I said, I don't even know you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:I complimented your tie. That's right. And then you said, I did a really nice job. Yeah, you did. And I said thank you. And then we were talking about, I think you said, so what do you like to do for fun? Or something like that. Yeah. We went and I asked you that and you said you swing dance. And I had already been swing dancing at the Derby many times with my friend Brendan. And we would go and swing dance. SoMichael Jamin:MyCynthia Mann Jamin:Knees went weak when youMichael Jamin:That's right. I took, it was either you or Brendan I took you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:So then long story short, there was a couple of weeks that went by and you called me and said, hi, this is Michael. And I said, I don't remember that name, but you're making it up because he has that name. And then you said, no, it's me and I would like to take you out for coffee. And I said, I don't drink coffee. I drink tea.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we had tea instead.Cynthia Mann Jamin:He said, that's okay, huh?Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. Right.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And then I remember this, Michael, on our first date, I hung back in my car because I think I saw you walk in. I'm like, I got to be a little late. I got to make him wait for me a little bit. So I made you wait just a little bit. And then I go in and the woman comes and says, so do you want a chocolate chip or oatmeal cookie, highland grounds? And it's not there anymore, I don't think. And you took the longest time figuring out what flavor you wanted. For me it was easy. It was chocolate chip or peanut butter. That was the other one. And then you go, I go, why did it take you so long to order the cookie? And you go, because I wasn't sure if there was anything to be gained by lying.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I was trying to impress you with the choice of cookies.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Weirdest thing anyone said to me that you cared enough about. The cookie choice is crazy.Michael Jamin:And then we've been together ever since.Cynthia Mann Jamin:We've been together ever since. And to go back to the projects, we started with tiling a table that now our daughter has at her college apartment. And that was our first project. And then we decided to have kids, and that was our second project.Michael Jamin:ThenCynthia Mann Jamin:I started my business Twirly Girl, which I ran for 15 years. Still going, but not as big. And you helped me with that. You wrote all my commercials and did all of that. And then you wrote a book and then I'm helping you with that. So I think we're better when we're working together, honestly.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Cynthia Mann Jamin:I do. I think it's, when I was doing Twirly Girl and you were working as a writer and all of that, we never really connected on any kind of common ground aside from the kids because you were always doing your thing. I was doing my thing. But then when you started to write the commercials, I think our relationship went to another level because it's like you're appreciating the other person for their gifts and what they bring to you. But it's also like you're helping me with something that really means a lot to me. And it was like this back and forth that just felt so great. And I trusted you more than anyone to put me in the best light. And I think that's the same with you trusting me with your words because I care about them and I want to present you in the best light and I'll work tirelessly to get it.Michael Jamin:And you have produce the audio book and you had to learn how to do all that. What do you have to tell people? What do you have to share? What wisdom can you share with people on starting something like this?Cynthia Mann Jamin:I would say, and I was talking to Lola about this last night, and what occurred to me was that when you have the pinch or you have the idea, just the idea to do something and it's filling you with a lot of joy and passion and it almost creates its own engine in you, and you just feel so motivated to attack it and see if you can accomplish it. It almost doesn't matter if anybody else likes it because it's something you need to do. And I felt that way with my business. I remember creating these dresses and going, I know they're special. I know they are so special. And I don't even, the icing on the cake is that other people love them, but that's not why I'm doing itm doing it because I need to do it. And it's bringing me so much joy and it's fulfilling something in me that was missing or that I didn't even know that I needed.And it brought me so much that I could have more than I could have ever thought, oh, I'm going to make dresses because it's going to give me a sense of self. It's going to fire that entrepreneurial spirit. It's going to make me feel connected to those around me. I'm going to share my story about it. I couldn't have thought that I just followed the desire to make something. And then all these things kind of cascaded. And that's what I'm telling you. That's how I feel about the audio book. When you said, all right, you're going to direct and you're also going to edit it and you're going to do all these things, I'm like, I don't know how to do Pretty much, I knew how to direct because of the acting background, but I didn't know how to do an audiobook. We didn't know how we wanted this to come into the world and what it would look like. But I felt that desire, that same joy to just achieve this. And we love it and we know we did an amazing job, and the fact that it's resonating with other people is icing on the cake because we couldn't not do it.Michael Jamin:But you still had to learn a lot of skills to do that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I think I love, I'm one of those people that loves learning by doing. You would tell me, watch the videos on how to do it. And I was like, this is not going to go anywhere for me because I'm not going to retain it unless I need it. If I need to know how to do something, then I'm going to learn it. So I learned by doing it. And that process is so exciting to me because I know that I'm also growing as a person if I can accomplish something really hard that I don't think I know how to do or I've never done before. So that challenge is also really gratifying for me.Michael Jamin:And now there's the next challenge, which is taking it on the road.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And we have no clue how to do that either. Yeah,Michael Jamin:We'll figure it out. I guess we'll just make it happen.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah,Michael Jamin:It's really just about putting your energy into something and then watching as things start falling into place.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Exactly. You don't know what you don't know, but you'll find it out. And then that thing will lead to another thing. And we have very different styles. You and I, what my sense of what you do, and you tell me what you think mine is, but my sense of what your approach is is you throw a hundred percent of your energy into thinking about it, and you're almost like tunnel vision. You have to be so hyperfocused on it until you get it to where you want it to be and nothing distracts you. What do you think my style is? I'm just, is that I have that right?Michael Jamin:I'm not really sure. I guess so I'm not really sure I, I guess I work on it until I'm done.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it is like you have this hyper focus about it. And for me, I kind of feel guilty if I'm not like you just sitting at the computer and studying it and figuring it out, then to me, I have to walk away and I have to kind of let it settle. And then I have to really check in with my intuition in a way and go, okay, what's the next right move? Where do I need to spend my energy is just spinning my wheels, trying to figure it out, doesn't work for me. And I feel like you are good at that. You're good at like, okay, I'm going to figure this out. And you just keep working it and working it kneading the dough. And for me, I have to leave it and come back to it.Michael Jamin:All of it was every single part of it. None of it's easy. I don't know why people expect it to be easy. We all want it to be easy, but it never is. The creating of it is never easy. And then the marketing of it, putting it out there and getting people to, that's half the battle.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And I think the main thing that we discovered, and I think you working with Twirly Girl really helped you with this project because you saw how being authentic and really communicating with your audience in a very real way resonates. And there's no other way to do it because how could you post every single day if it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture, trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have. There's a million books out there. There's a million dresses. I created dresses. There's a million of them. We don't need another one. But what we don't have is the dress that I can make. What we don't have is the book that you can write. And I think leaning into that perspective is really, really empowering and crucial to the creative process.Michael Jamin:We would speak a lot. We would go on walks and speak a lot about, in the beginning we would talk about what the function of art is, what's the expectation and what the market is. I remember talking about, because David Sedaris is the one who inspired me to write this. I love his writing. And it's the same genre, personal essays, and I remember talking to you, but we know what he writes. People love, we know there's a market for it. So I be doing that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, I, but he's kind of paved the way, and that was inspiring. I think inspiration is so healthy, and that's what you were inspired by. But the whole thing that you talk about is finding your voice, and it took you a while to find the rhythm. And people, when they read it, they're never going to confuse David s and Michael Jamin. They're never going to, because your background in TV gave you this whole different way of going into a story and entertaining an audience. And that's just in your blood. It's in your makeup, it's just who you are and the details of everything that you write. It reads like a film or cinematically because there's no moment in there where it's not leading to something elseMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the hell is MichaeliJamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, we'll find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.Michael Jamin:I wish it was a genre that was easier to explain to people, because when people say, what's your story? What's a book about? I have to try to explain, well, it's personal essays, but it's not an essay. Essay sounds like homework. It's not a memoir because I'm not important that it's my memoir. They're stories, but they're true. But what is that? It'd be just so much easier if I could say, well, it's YA fantasy or something. And people go, oh, okay. I know what young adult fantasy is, but it's not that. And so that's part of the uphill struggle that we have is explaining to people, getting people to understand enough just to take a chance and read it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But I think letting people catch up to what is what's important, what it is, is important because you're assuming that you have to spell it out for people. And I'll equate it again to Tuley Girl, the dresses I made were so hard to explain. And we were like, but it's not this. It's not fantasy, but you can wear it every day. And I had about 5,000 different taglines because I couldn't communicate it. And then finally you came up with the most amazing explanation of what it was after probably about eight years of doing it, which was, whatMichael Jamin:Was it? You could say it. You could say it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, we don't create dresses. We create your favorite childhood memory. Happy childhood. We're creating happy memories,Michael Jamin:Happy childhood memories.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Dress isn't just a,Michael Jamin:You got it wrong. We create happy childhood memories. That's whatCynthia Mann Jamin:It was. Right? Happy childhood. Well, I've had a year doing the audiobook, so 12 Girls in the Distance there.Michael Jamin:But that was another thing I remember. We saw a wonderful special by this guy named Derek DelGaudio called In and of itself, it's a wonderful, it was on Hulu. It was like a one-time special, basically like an hour long or something.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, it started as aMichael Jamin:Stage play. It started as a stage play. But when I tell people, when I try to describe what it's about, it's almost impossible to describe. And that's part of the problem. It's hard. It was such a uniquely wonderful experience, but it's impossible to tell people to describe it because it's its own thing.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, I But you would say it's a one man show and a very unique experience,Michael Jamin:But there's magic and it's participation, but it's not magic. It's something else.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, it's not a magic show.Michael Jamin:No, it's not a magic show. So it's really hard to, putting something in a box makes it easier to sell because people can understand what the box is. And I feel like that's part of the struggle I have with a paper orchestra, which is, and everyone who reads it, they love it, but they still don't understand what it is until they actually read it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But see, I think what you have on the cover is perfect. It's true stories about the smallest moments that you sometimes forget. What if the smallest moments were the ones that meant the most? So that says everything to me. That's all I need to know.Michael Jamin:That's what the book is. It's just about, hey, here's a small moment in life where I point out, which easily you could have forgotten about because it's so small. And it turns out, if you look back at that moment, everything changed because of it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And I love that you talk about the fact that it's really not about, you have to have these catastrophic or monumental things happen to you to be a changed person. Most of us don't have those huge, huge moments and so tender and intimate about it and relatable because you didn't come from an unusual background. You're pretty average with child of divorce. That's kind of average for our job, do.Michael Jamin:So those are the kind of stories that I tell, and I said before, I really don't think the stories are my stories. The details are mine, but I'm really trying to tell your story. But maybe you haven't figured out how to do that. But I do that because I'm a writer, so I know how to do that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, yeah. And I think we're just, it's nice that we're able to work well together in so many ways. And I think it really does stem from having that deep respect for each other's gifts, and we're able to really be very upfront with each other when we don't like something or when we question it. And I'm not married to my way doing it my way. I'm really looking at the bigger picture. I want a paper orchestra to be great. What's going to serve that? And I think we both have that in mind. And in terms of the tour and taking it on the road, I mean, I think you're more than ready to perform it. And I'm so excited for people to be able to experience it in that way as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a different kind of, that's why, because the show, it is a theatrical show. And I do think there's something more intimate about, people say, can't you record it and play it? Yeah, I could, butCynthia Mann Jamin:Well, that's the audio book. But that audio book is going to be different.Michael Jamin:But in terms of even recording the stage show, you'll miss the intimacy of being right in front of me, being in the room and feeling the energy. You don't feel the energy. That's probably the thing with tv, it's great. It's a wonderful form, but you don't have the same energy as you do seeing live theater. And I wish there's a better way because many people don't want to see live theater, but it's different. It's a different experience. Good theater is great. Bad theater is terrible. That's why it runs the whole gamut. There's that expression. Nothing lasts forever except for bad theater, and that's because of the energy. So it goes both ways.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And when we were working together on the audiobook the first time, we were trying to convey that performance that we do live. And after listening to it again and showing, having our daughter, Lola, listen to it, and her listening to literally the first three minutes, and I had already edited the whole thing. She was like, oh no, this isn't, I can't, you got to bring it down. And we were like, yeah, I had a feeling because when I was editing it, I was like, I don't know. I dunno about this. We just got to see.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we had to do it again because we wanted the performance to be more intimate because you're listening to it on headphones or alone in the car, and it's a different, you're not listening it in a group of people, which is what the theater show is. So I'm literally in your head because you're wearing headphones. We had to bring everything down and make the performance much more intimate. It's a different, and we'll have to see how that affects my next performance with my live show.Cynthia Mann Jamin:You're totally different. I know, totally. But see, when you say we had to bring it down, I don't like saying it like that because it makes it sound like it's sleepy and it's not.Michael Jamin:You had to bring it moreCynthia Mann Jamin:Intimate. But it's like I really wanted, it's more like you contained the energy. They took this kind of energy that needs to project out, and we harnessed it and shoved it into a little two 12 by 12 area inches.Michael Jamin:But this is all acting stuff that I could not have done without you because you're an actor. I have couldn't have figured this out on my own, I don't think.Cynthia Mann Jamin:No, I think it would've been really hard because your tendency when you would just start to read it before I would kind of steer you in the right direction or go, oh, you're going down the wrong path. Let me take you over here. That's pretty much all I needed to do in those moments. But your natural tendency was to just start reading it. And I'm like, where are you? I don't hear your personality. I'm not engaged in the story because you are not connected to it. So it really required the same amount of energy, Michael, that does for you to do this on stage, but you had to have the same amount of energy but contain it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, it's a whole different art to it, not an actor. So I had to learn how to do, how perform it to keep people engrossed in it. So I dunno, it's a fun performance. We want to travel because this is what we want to do next. We want to travel together and put it up and continue. So if anyone wants to come see it, you can go to michael jamin.com/upcoming and enter your city, and then we'll let you know. When we get to your city, we're figuring out how to, this is the next thing we're figuring out how to actually make it happen so we can do this effectively. Bring it to people's, bring the theater because it's a whole, again, people will say to me, whoa, can you sell it as a tv? Maybe it could be a TV show, maybe it could be a movie. And I'm always thinking about, why can't it just be a book? Why can't it be an audio book? Why can't it be a theatrical show as if TV or movies is somehow better than the experience that we're creating now? I don't think it is. And I work in television and film, I don't think it's better.I think there's a betterness to what we have.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, there's a pureness to it. There's something very simple and pure and the pacing of it. Everything is consumed so quickly right now, and it's almost too much. It's just too much. And what this does is it helps us to slow down. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There's a power in the pause. There's so much energy that you can portray. This is something that took me a while to have confidence to do, but you can act. You're talking, you're saying you're doing whatever, the whole dog and pony show, but in leaving that pause and saying nothing, there's this anticipation and the audience is just waiting for it. And it's like a loaded gun.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah. I don't like that analogy, but what is it? Well, it's like you're on the edge of your seat and you've got us in your hands, and we're just captive. We're a captive audience. Time stands still. Time stands still, and we're just with you. And it really is allowing our being to kind of just be in that moment. It crystallizes the moments. And those are the moments in theater that why it's so impactful is because we're in this communal experience together where we're experiencing time at the same time, and we're also being together at the same time. It's very profound. And I remember working with you on the audio book and you were really hesitant to take us with you. I remember that. I kept saying, take us with you, Michael. It was like, but I'm going too slow or I'm going too fast. Or it was like, it didn't matter. The pacing. I would arbitrarily tell you, take us with you. And you would say, but I am. I go, yeah, but even if you're slow, or even if you're fast, the intention is to connect with us and make sure that we're with you. And it's hard on an audiobook because there's no audience, but with an audience, you can feel.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But with the audience too, I'm in front of a bright light. I don't see them. I can sense them, but I can't see anybody. ButCynthia Mann Jamin:That's what's important is you sensing it. You can totally sense it. You can sense it because you can hear the Oh or that, or you can hear laugh, or you can hear the silence is different than a regular silence. It's like a pin drop.Michael Jamin:There's that moment at the end of the Marissa disclaimer where I confess to something and the audience is so disappointed. I remember the first time we performed it, they were just like, oh,Cynthia Mann Jamin:We all go. OhMichael Jamin:Yeah. Everyone was so disappointed in me. But that's so effective about it, is that they were along for the ride. And yeah, and that's another thing. You gave me a couple of things that helped me before each show. You printed out Ellie Zen's, what is it called?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Letter to the actor.Michael Jamin:Letter to the actor. And I read it before where I talk about, where he talks about what my responsibility is to the audience as a performer, what my responsibility is. And so it doesn't feel, it's not like, because it can come off as being self-absorbed acting. It could come off as being narcissistic. Look at me. But you can't look at it that way. You have to look at it as this is what I have to do in order to give you what you want,Cynthia Mann Jamin:A gift. You have to give the audience a gift, and you have that responsibility to leave it all on the stage. And when you're an actor, it's no longer about you, Michael. It's about the words on the page. And you need to fulfill those words on the page. And as an actor, we're taught that the words are sacred. We don't change the words. We don't try and outthink the words. They are everything. And our job is to bring that to life and bring ourselves to the piece.Michael Jamin:And it's exhausting, though, at the end of the show. It is exhausting. Don't people appreciate how much energy I have to be in every moment so as not to check out or phone in, or just at the end of the night, I'm exhausted from an hour show. It's like, God,Cynthia Mann Jamin:And you're not expected. It's impossible in a way. And the greatest actors will say this too, that it is a job. So what do you do if you're not feeling it? And in that moment, you're thinking about what you're going to have for dinner, or, oh my God, I can't wait to just go home and lie down because it requires so much energy. And what you do is you go with that truth inside. I don't even want to be here right now. You use the truth of what you're feeling in that moment, and that brings you back into the piece. You have to connect to something real. Whereas if you're denying it and you're going, oh my God, I suck right now. I need to force myself to have this energy, then you're going to overcompensate and you're going to force it. And it's not going to be truthful. But if you really go into the moment of like, ah, damn, I'm just, I got nothing. I feel nothing. How does that make you feel? Feels pretty shitty. All right. I'm just going to say the next line from this place, because this is where I'm at. And then it takes off. Then you're off again. I mean,Michael Jamin:But what if the line, you're not supposed to feel shitty onCynthia Mann Jamin:It. The audience buys it because the audience knows truth. As long as you're truthful, we're going to take however you read it and go, oh, that must be what that means. Oh, the character must feel this way. They're not going, oh, Michael.Michael Jamin:But the character is not supposed to feel the character's excited to be at a party,Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it could look like this. Oh my God, I am so excited to be here. It could look really intense and focused when I'm feeling like God damnit, I'm not feeling anything. Instead of the idea of, oh my God, and I'm so happy to be here. Why does it have to come out that way? Even if I came out and was like, I'm really excited to be here. What does that come out? It could come across. I'm a little nervous or I'm excited. I'm afraid to showMichael Jamin:It. But it feels truthful. You're saying?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yes, as long as it's rooted in some kind of truth, the audience will interpret it however it needs to go with theMichael Jamin:Story. This is some high level directing shit for people,Cynthia Mann Jamin:Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. I think a lot of it to me is very, how I was trained was always going with what is. And you hear a noise, somebody, it's not about everybody being quiet all the time and ohMichael Jamin:My God. So what happens if you hear a noise backstage during your show,Cynthia Mann Jamin:You incorporate it. Even if you don't want to draw attention to it, you as the actor, because the audience is all going to hear it. So if you hear that, I have to just kind of go, all right, I don't have to comment on it. I just have to take that moment and allow it to be there. Because again, if you deny it,Michael Jamin:But doesn't that break the fourth wall? If you hear a banging backstage and then you turn your head and you acknowledge it, it's backstage.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it could be if you're the character and you hear something backstage, that's the world you're in. It could be in the next room.Michael Jamin:You have to, if you don't acknowledge it, if you don't acknowledge, it's like, well, why aren't they acknowledging?Cynthia Mann Jamin:And then there's a giant elephant in the room and stuff like props falling over. Oh my God. There'd be the worst thing an actor could do. One of the worst things is like their hat falls off and it's not supposed to fall off. And the whole time it's sitting in the middle of the stage, the audience is worried about the hat. Now we're going to be thinking about the hat. So the worst thing an actor can do is to deny that the hat fell off. You know what I mean? Use it. Use all of it. All it is for the moment to fuel you. And sometimes the best. When I was on friends, David Schwimmer and I were rehearsing our scene. You did a bad thing. Very bad. Very, very bad. Yes, I know that scene. And we were rehearsing it and we screwed up, but we didn't sit there and go, oh, wait a minute.We screwed up the line. Let's take it back. No, you just go with it. And Marta and David, the show creators were standing right off to the side, and they're like, wait a minute, guys, what happened there? It was like, yeah, we screwed up the lines. Well, that's going in. We're going to do it that way now. And so the best, the happy accidents are when you don't plan it and you're going with it. And Michael, you have some amazing moments in the audio book where you can't speak. You're so full of emotion that you can't speak. And I've listened to it a number of times in my car, and my heart goes into my throat because I can't see you. And a lot of times I don't remember. It always catches me by surprise that that moment is happening. And I think, oh my God, did the audio track drop out? Because there's such a stillness. And then all of a sudden you come back in and your next line is just, you can barely even talk. And that resonates through the frigging speaker. We're not even seeing you. That's how powerful our emotion is if we just allow it to take us and to trust it. And it's transformative. ItMichael Jamin:Really is a time machine for me, because when I'm retelling those stories, it's like I'm living it again. Again. And people, the funny thing is, people after that show, when I do this, some of those stories, people are worried about me.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, yeah. Because that's what IA Kaza talks about, is you just leave it all on the stage. Yeah. Because why else are you there? Why are you there? If you're not going to go there, then why are you there?Michael Jamin:That's why I feel like one of the things that I like about personal essays, which is so hard to explain to people, but when they read it, they get it. Is that a novel? The characters are made up. They're fictitious. And the worst thing that can happen to your charact, they'll die. But again, they're just made up, so everything's fine. Your favorite made up character just had something horrible. Again, they're just made up. But with these personal essays, I feel the stakes are higher. I feel like it's a unique art form because the stakes, it's a real person telling real stories about themselves. The stakes are higher because they're not made up.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And that's the beauty of you performing your own work too, is that you can really shine in that way. You don't have to worry about becoming a character, putting something on, but I think it is hard for you because you have to psyche yourself up to really go there. It's like your energy has to be up. You have to be willing to investigate that. And if you're not feeling it, you got to go with the truth that you're not feeling it it. Then see where that leads you. It's scary.Michael Jamin:It's also, the funny thing is I don't really have any desire to do anybody else's to act in someone else's show. I don't have a desire to become an actor. It's just really more like I have a desire to pursue this art.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And why do you feel the pinch to want to perform it? And I've asked you this in the end of the audio book too, but it's not so much. What is it in you that needs to be seen and heard, orMichael Jamin:I'm not entirely clear on it. I just want to, I suppose it's because, and I'm very happy. I've had a long and successful career as a TV writer, but part of me also feels like there's just something missing from what I write.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's similar to when I was a dancer. I was like, I need more expression than this. I have to act now because dancing just is part of the expression, but it's not allowing me to fully express everything. So maybe performing is part of that for you. It's not enough to just have people read it or listen to it. You want to experience it with them. You need that connection, that expression.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I guess. And I also, I kind of want to just do something special. That's all. Because I wonder sometimes before when I go on, I go, why am I doing this? I just want to create something special that people will like. And I think people get it from the book and the audio book, so it's not necessary. I don't think it's necessary for me to perform, but maybe it's a plus. I don't know.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah. I think more will be revealed as they say. You'll see why. And that's another thing about following those creative impulses. I know because I have this hindsight with Twirly Girl, after doing it for 15 years, I can honestly look back and say that I would've never expected to have experienced what I experienced in the way that all the gifts that it brought me, there's no way I could have predicted that. And I think it's the same thing here. You just don't know where it's going to lead you, but you feel the need to do it. And I think that's enough. I think that's all you need, honestly. It takes on a life of its own too.Michael Jamin:Yeah. We'll see where it goes, but we'll just put energy into it and see where it goes.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yes. Onto the next project. But this project now,Michael Jamin:Well, maybe that, is that where we conclude this podcast? Is there anything else to cover?Cynthia Mann Jamin:I don't know. I don't know anything else for you.Michael Jamin:I don't know. I'm very grateful for all your help doing this. I couldn't do any of this without you. And for everyone listening, it really helps if you have someone helping you with whatever your project is, it does help a lot. And so you have to find the right person, whoever that is.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I'm so grateful for you and everything that you've brought me, and this is just a joy and everything I want it to be. It is. And I'm so happy to be working with you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you're sweet. Alright, everyone, there you go. A paper orchestra signed copies are available@michaeljamin.com. You can also find the link to the paperback, the ebook, the audiobook, the audiobooks on Audible, Spotify, and Apple. It's called The Paper Orchestra, produced and directed by Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, but here's the thing, guys. If you want to see him in person, we would love to meet you. So keep in touch with us.Michael Jamin:Yeah, sign up at michael jamin.com/upcoming. Okay, everyone, thank you again. Thank you, Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Thank you, Michael. I love you.Michael Jamin:I love you.Michael Jamin:Wow. I did it again, another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I love the Journey. And Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

This month, Andy Gordon, co-founder, former CEO, and current Executive Chair of the Board of Managers at Octagon Credit joins your host Brian Bejile, CEO of Octaura on The Ramp Up. Andy has had an illustrious career on Wall Street. From being one of the first analysts on the leveraged buyout desk at Manufacturers Hanover Trust to successfully spinning out Octagon – he did all of this while finding opportunity through two recessions and building a business that champions diversity and inclusion. About AndyAndrew Gordon is a member of Octagon's Investment Committee and serves as the Executive Chair of Octagon's Board of Managers. He co-founded Octagon in 1994. Andy served as the firm's Chief Executive Officer from 2009 to 2023, prior to which he managed numerous Octagon funds. He possesses over 30 years of experience in the below investment grade leveraged loan and high yield bond asset classes, in both sell-side and buy-side capacities. He also sits on Octagon's ESG Committee.Before co-founding Octagon, Andy was a Managing Director at Chemical Securities, Inc., where he focused primarily on the oil and gas industries. He advised on and arranged below investment grade loans for corporate clients, while also undertaking special projects in M&A advisory and distressed credit situations. Prior to Chemical, Andy served as Vice President in the Acquisition Finance Division of Manufacturers Hanover Trust Company. In this capacity, he structured, syndicated and managed leveraged buyout transactions.From 2010 to 2015, Andy served on the Board of Directors of the Loan Syndications and Trading Association ("LSTA") and on the LSTA's Executive Committee. He graduated Cum Laude with an A.B. in Economics from Duke University, and holds FINRA Series 7 and 63 Registrations.

Released on Wednesday 29th November 2023. Joseph Hadfield, Josh Chapman and Connor Thorpe present over three hours of the greatest, most iconic and funniest moments of the programme to celebrate its fifth anniversary, alongside George Barber, Ben Collins, Callum Cheswick, Andy Gordon, George Sanderson and Rob Green. Eternal thanks go to graphic designer Hannah Carr, all our guests over the years, and all the bands and artists kind enough to let us use their music for the show.

Members of the research community at Microsoft work continuously to advance their respective fields. Abstracts brings its audience to the cutting edge with them through short, compelling conversations about new and noteworthy achievements.In this episode, Andy Gordon, a Partner Research Manager, and Carina Negreanu, a Senior Researcher, both at Microsoft Research, join host Dr. Gretchen Huizinga to discuss “Co-audit: Tools to help humans double-check AI-generated content.” This paper brings together current understanding of generative AI performance to explore the need and context for tools to help people using the technology find and fix mistakes in AI output.View the paper

This week, Emmy Winning Writer/Producer Jack Burditt (Modern Family, 30 Rock, Frasier and many, many more) discusses his career path, joining a show that is already established and working on shows with green screens.Show NotesJack Burditt on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0120994/Jack Burditt on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackburdittMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptJack Burditt:I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show I always wanted to write. This is, and it was fun. And it was like we could go bonkers at times,Michael Jamin:But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up like this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. Another great guest. Hats off to me because my next guest is a friend from, I've known him for many, many years and I honestly have to say this guy's writing credits our outstanding, he's, and he's, he's going to be embarrassed when I say this, but Jack, I'm, I'm here with Jack Birded and he's literally one of the most sought after comedy writers in Hollywood. And Jack, before you say a word, let me tell you everyone what you've written on this could take a long time. You got a lot of credits, so, well, most recently, he's the creator intro runner of the Santa Clauss, the Tim Allen show on Disney Plus. Where he, Santa Claus. I'm going to, I'm just going to skip many of your credits. You have too many. I'm just going to do some of what I think of my, your highlights.Modern family. He run a Mount Modern family for many years. Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt 30 Rock, which we're definitely going to talk about. That is literally one of my favorite shows of all time. And I want to know more about that Last Man Standing, which he created new adventures of old Christine. I'm with her watching Ellie, and I know I said that wrong. Watching Ellie Inside Schwartz created, he co-created Dag Just Shoot Me, which we worked on together, Inc. Frazier. Mad about you. What else did I, I'm sure, oh, the Mindy Project did I said that right? The Mindy Project. That's how you said that show.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes.Michael Jamin:I'm unfamiliar with her. And then most importantly, the one that everyone knows you for. Father Doubting Mysteries.Jack Burditt:Jack. Well,Michael Jamin:Thank you so much. Damn, Jack, the credits on. You are nuts. We were talking yesterday, we were picketing yesterday and I was like, Jack, come on. You got to be on it. My podcast. And you were kind enough to do this. I got a lot of questions for you, Jack. I want to talk about 30 Rock, most of all, because I had a lot of questions while we were drunk on a three hour hike around the Disney lot. But I was like, let's just save it for the podcast. Tell what was 30 Rock, because I know obviously you're LA and they flew you out because that was a New York show. So you lived out New York.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I mean, they didn't fly me out. I flew myself out. Yeah, okay. That's the first thing. Okay. They don't put you up, they don't like No, no, it, yeah, no, it was,Michael Jamin:But wait a minute. Do they give you any allowance for rent or is that No, you're just paying for it out of your salary. TheyJack Burditt:Give you a moving fee, I guess, and it's not much. And it's a one-time thing, so there's no, it's point.Michael Jamin:And then, so were you living in Manhattan then?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was a big decision. I mean, that came about, I was, remember, I was actually thinking of a career move at that point. WhatMichael Jamin:Was the moveJack Burditt:To go to dramas? I don't know. A lot of sitcoms. I was like, eh, I don't know. Maybe I want to try something new. But I was supervising a pilot that season, a comedy pilot. And I remember just reading a lot of the drama pilots and go, oh, this might be interesting. And even at that time, I met on Friday Night Lights, which was going to be starting up and was really interest in that show because I thought, oh, this is a great pilot.Michael Jamin:But you had to put together a bunch of different drama specs, right, to do that. Yeah. Yeah.Jack Burditt:Okay. So I did that, and then I just read in the pack. There were some sitcoms in there too, and it was the Untitled Tina Faye project. And I read that and I'm like, oh shit, I want to be on this show.Michael Jamin:Mean it was great. But then had, okay, so then your agent submitted you and then what happened?Jack Burditt:Yeah, and he, not for a long time, could not give me a meeting with Tina. She wanted the people. She wanted, and she's going to do with Robert Carlock. And I didn't know him either. And my agent really spent a lot of time just saying, well, would you meet with this guy? And she read a spec of mine that she just didn't care about that much, but he talked her to a meeting with me. So at some point I got a call, it was a Friday. They're like, can you go to New York to meet with T? And I'm like, yeah. And they said, can you get, there's a plane leaving in three hours, can you get on that? And I said, sure. So I went out, flew out on a Friday night, got there Saturday, met with her Saturday afternoon. She was still doing, she's still the head writer on S N L.Right. She was still doing weekend update. And it was a show day at S N L. I went to her office there. And I just remember there was a lot of chaos going on. And then Gore's supposed to be doing a couple bits in the episode, but they didn't know at that point whether he was going to show up or not. And I was just, wow, curious. I go, well, what happens if you, he doesn't show up? She goes, yeah, you just deal with it. And I thought, she's so calm. I go, I want to work for her so bad.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That becomes basically an episode for 30 Rocky. That's what happens.Jack Burditt:I mean,Michael Jamin:So, alright. I'm just curious about the logistics. So you rent a place in Manhattan and then you shot it, was it in Queens? In Astoria, I imagine? No, you shot inJack Burditt:30. Yeah. Yeah. Silver Cup. So no, we shot it at Silver Cup in Long Island City, Queens. We would certainly shoot at 30 Rocket Times. But no, our offices, our main set was across the river.Michael Jamin:And then how did it work? How was she able to be in the writer's room and be on set? So how did she do that?Jack Burditt:It was tough. Mean, there was a lot of her shooting during the day, and then some of us going to her apartment at night and riding at nightMichael Jamin:Afterwards. So your hours must have been really tough.Jack Burditt:They were long hours. Yeah.Michael Jamin:What was the day, typical day on that show? I mean,Jack Burditt:I don't know mean it was always long. Always. I felt like it was always at least 12 hour days. But I mean, there were times, and we've been in the doing sitcoms or stuff. I mean, there were times we saw the sun come up.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. It isJack Burditt:The worst feeling in the world.Michael Jamin:It is the worst feeling. But that show, this was my complaint with 30 Rock. If you laughed out loud, you'd miss the next joke. It was that funny that I was like, I'd almost watch it in silence because like, I don't want to miss it. It was so funny that you couldn't laugh because you'd miss the next big joke, which was right around the corner. It was nuts. That show, I mean, so how was that different for you writing in that show? Was there different and it was a, I don't know, what was the secret? That was a, I just love that show. It was hilarious.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show. I always wanted to write this. And it was fun. And it was like, we could go bonkers at times,Michael Jamin:But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up, this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen, or, yeah. Right. But I feel like on that show, we've been in rooms before and you pitch something really funny and everybody's pitching on top of it, and then the showrunner's like, yeah, but we can't do that. AndMichael Jamin:On that show it was like, we can that. So I mean, is that right? I mean, was there prettyJack Burditt:Much, yeah, quite often I'm things that I knew if I'd pitch on other shows, it would've been like a, yeah, that's really good. We're not doing that. Right. I thought, oh, it's got a shot here.Michael Jamin:But the thing is, I don't remember. I don't really remember. I don't remember the Beg, the early episodes. It couldn't have started out that broad. It couldn't have. Right. Because no one would've approved that. But no network is going to say you'd be this crazy red out of the gate. Right?Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it helped to have the power of Lor. Michaels behind it. He was an EP on it. But yeah, I, what the show became was a bit different from what it started, and there became more frenetic and a little bit more crazy as it went along. But I mean, even in that first season, I mean episode, I don't even know, maybe it was episode nine. By episode nine, we had Paul Rubins just playing this crazy character, and it was the first timer like, oh, maybe this is what the show can be.Michael Jamin:Oh, was really, is that what it was? Wait, the one time in Hits, and you'reJack Burditt:Like, yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So I, I'm pretty sure you, well, you were in episode runs, weren't you? Weren't you in it once? IJack Burditt:Was in a few, yes.Michael Jamin:Yes, a few. And you TJack Burditt:Tina liked to, I think Tina and Robert Carlock. I don't like being on film, which is why theyMichael Jamin:Put you inJack Burditt:It. I think it was, but I also think it was partially, I did a lot of set duty. I was on set a lot during that run. And I think there's also the feeling of you put him in front of the camera so he knows what every actor's going through. And maybe it is helpful because in front of camera can be terrifying.Michael Jamin:Sure. But tell me, okay, so why were you on set most of the time? Why did they chooseJack Burditt:You? A lot the time. I mean it, I felt like in the early years, they just had, there were a few of us, there was me, they, John Regie, Kay Cannon, I don't know. There was a trust in some of us that they're like, you can sit on set. If something comes up, you can be there. Help rewriteMichael Jamin:It. Because Tina was there all the time. Right?Jack Burditt:A lot of the time. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And so she would say, Hey, can you take on another whack at this terrible scene? And then you'd got to just fix it on the set.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So far, when we were doing Marin, I think I've told this before, but we did a scene in an anger management. Mark was in anger management. So they had a big circle where all of the other people in anger management. And so Mark yells me, he goes, jam and get in here. He wanted to be an extra in the scene. So I'm like, all right. He thought it'd be funny. So I'm sitting in the anger management scene, and then the director all cut, and then I get up and I go to the director, give him notes and all the extras. This guy is going to get fired. What the hell is he doing? Why is he talking to the director like that?Jack Burditt:That's hilarious. Do you remember the time on Just Shoot Me, were Steve was going to put me in a scene in the elevator and ask what he said? Yeah. Or I think somebody else had picked, maybe it should be Bird in the Elevator when George Siegel gets in there and Steve's like, yeah, fine, that seems good. But then the next day he's like, you know what Bird, it can't be in the elevator. This building is too nice of a building. And he basically going up too much of a dirt bag to be inMichael Jamin:That's, oh my God, we on, oh my. I dunno if I can say which. What? I was on a show, it was a network show, and we gave the lead character the last name. Well, you must know her. Linda ett. You know Linda, right? Yeah, yeah,Jack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. So the network didn't realize, they didn't know her name, I guess, and they didn't like the lead being named Ti, they didn't like that name on her. She's like, what my name. But I remember we played, just Shoot Me at Ja, shoot me. We played, and it was best on pre-production. We played basketball. And then I would guard you because you were probably 35. I was like, I get the old, give me the old man. You were 35. Oh God. So now we were talking about this as well yesterday. You're running the Santa Clauss on Disney, and we were mentioning how, I hope you're comfortable talking about this, but the stress that comes with running a show versus being a Coex exec. And I wanted to get your take on, you feel what the differences are for you. What are the stresses for you when you're running a show?Jack Burditt:I mean, I guess the biggest stress of all is if something's not working, it's on you.Michael Jamin:It's on you. It'sJack Burditt:Just on you. I, and I just don't sleep. And it's like I, I'm like, I'm up at three in the morning going, Jesus, we don't figure this out. There's not going to be a script. There's not going to be. And it's just so many, I mean, how it is is a thousand questions a day, a thousand emails, texts, everything like that. And you just, you're overwhelmed. And I mean, what I like doing most is writing.Michael Jamin:But isn't that the hardest? I always say that's the hardest part of the job is the writing part, right?Jack Burditt:It's really hard, but it's also what I like the most. I love writing.Michael Jamin:But when they come to you with a wardrobe problem, aren't you just like, eh, put 'em on whatever. I don't really care.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. In fact, every time I have run a show, always go to the head of wardrobe and I'm like, I don't know anything about it. Yeah. You see, the way I dress, I should never ever have a note on wardrobe. So I will always defer to you. And yet, I always wind up having a couple things like, no, this has got to be like this.Michael Jamin:I wonder if you feel this way as well. When I'm in a production meeting and everyone has a million questions and I'm like, oh, I got so much work to do. Can we get this over with? I got to go back and write. To me, that's not even the work. That's always like, this is nonsense I have to deal with. I got the writing is the hard part.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. I will say though, it, it's going to, production meetings is good because I think at first when you start writing, you're just like, I'll write anything. And then the production meeting,Michael Jamin:TheyJack Burditt:Say, no, clarifies what a jackass most production thinks you are for writing a simple line is going to cause so many problems and so much anxiety for prop people and wardrobe and special effects and stunts and everything like that.Michael Jamin:What about casting? Do you enjoy that part?Jack Burditt:No, I mean, right. It's tough. I mean, I know that a lot of Cassie now is done on tape, and I know that's its own problem. I know a lot of actors hate that, but I just feel so bad and being in the room with actors and you know, have 15 people coming in for a role and you're like, I could give this to 13 of them, anybody's going to be really good, so I'm going to pick this person. But a bunch of people who easily could have this job will not get it. I hate being in that position.Michael Jamin:So that's what it is. It's about you not wanting to hurt people that you don't, the part you don'tJack Burditt:Like. Yes. Yes.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Jack Burditt:Yeah, because I'm, there's so many good people out there, and there's so few jobs,Michael Jamin:Right? Yeah. What do you have, what's your interaction, I guess? What's your, yeah, what do you tell new actors to, how do you make 'em feel good? And do you have advice for them? I guessJack Burditt:It's funny because sometimes it's just like, they come in and what was in my head, they just nail it. And I'm like, that's great. But there's other times where actors will come in and do something that's completely different and really surprise me. And I go, alright, let's do it that way. And then I will wind up rewriting the role for them. Because Do youMichael Jamin:Tell that?Jack Burditt:I have told them that. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Well, how do, what do they feel about that? They must be very flattered.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting because you've been doing it so long, it's kind of interesting. I don't really talk about this, but you've been doing it so long, it's really not about, at this point, it's not about always getting what's out of your head casting that you're like, okay, yeah, I'll do some, I'll just surprise me, do something different. It's no longer about your ego at this point. It's about just what's interesting, right?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And when I say I hate Cassian, it's not like I hate, I'm rooting for everyone that walks through the door. I want everyone to be great, and that's it. Not because I know there's certain writers who just have a sour feeling about all actors or whatever. It's like, it's not that at all. In my case,Michael Jamin:Although, but now, because it's like, how much do you do when you're watching on tape? How much will you give them? If they have the three minute audition, how long will you watch the whole thing?Jack Burditt:Yeah, I do. I do.Michael Jamin:That's good of you. Yeah. That's really good of you. Because you know, might be reading 10 actors.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I know. But I just feel like I owe it to them.Michael Jamin:That's really good of you, especially at the end of the day when you're tired or you have more things toJack Burditt:Do. Yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin:And then on set, what else? Exactly. Let's say, I know we're getting back to the 30 Rock, but what are you looking at when you're on set? Or is it just all script? It's all about the words.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Mostly. I'm not one of those. Very rarely will I go in and go, this is blocked wrong, or anything like that. Or the act. Yeah, it's mostly about the words,Michael Jamin:Really. Yeah. So it's not even about making sure you have the right coverage. You just whatever you, you'll trust that to the director or theJack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:The dp. Yes.Jack Burditt:I mean, yeah, I'll call that out every once in a while. Like I don't think we, I got this reaction. I think the actor gave us the reaction. I don't think we have itMichael Jamin:On camera. Yeah, yeah. Right. And I'm sure you learned a lot just from being in post, right? Yes.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I know. It's one of the reasons we're running circles around Disney and other studios now, picketing, one of the big issues is younger writers aren't getting a chance to either be on set or do post. And I mean, if you're writing tell, youMichael Jamin:Have to know all this. YouJack Burditt:Got to know all of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, they don't, it's so odd because I think they're just being shortsighted it, it's going to be fine five or 10 years. But after that, when the older writers were done, these younger writers, they're not going to have this studio system. They, they created this thing that works, this Hollywood machine that really works well. And I feel like they're just trying to save a couple of bucks, but they're going to destroy it 10 or 15 years from now. What are you doing?Jack Burditt:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Hollywood has this monopoly that they're just kind of ruining. I don't know why they'd want to do that.Jack Burditt:Didn't your writing completely change after you started doing Post the way you would write a script?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it would. Well, it, not only that, it changed the way we would shoot it. We were hired on a job just because Steve and I knew how to look at the cameras we were hired on for pre-production, but they kept us through production because we knew what to do, how to watch the cameras, which the other people didn't know how to do. But yeah. But now you were also mentioning your post-production is so long. This is something I know very little about. Special effects. What is that whole process on with the show you're on now?Jack Burditt:Yeah.Michael Jamin:What do I need to know? If I were to say, kill you and take your jump,Jack Burditt:What you need to know isMichael Jamin:Don't do it. Don't take the jump.Jack Burditt:All the effects is so much more expensive than you can ever imagine.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah. So is a lot of green screen, is it rotoscope? What is this?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah, it's green screen. Yeah, IMichael Jamin:So when you're on set, how do you know if they're doing it right? I know. I never know. I don't.Jack Burditt:No, you got to trust it, I guessMichael Jamin:At theJack Burditt:Time. You got to be like, I hope. Yeah, we were, and we shot stuff this year that I was just like, so those mountains we see in the background, because this is supposed to be Chicago we're in, and not Santa Clarita, those mountains will be gone. I don't know if there's no money in the budget, suddenly Chicago's going to have a mountains,Michael Jamin:So they'll take all of, so it's all, yeah, even that, that's not even, okay, so it's not evenJack Burditt:That's green screen. It's right. It's like things to paint out, or they're dealing with a green horse head on set and you have person talking to it, and you have to trust that at some point, that's going to be a character talking to a reindeer and the reindeer's talking back.Michael Jamin:Right. And that, so you are overseeing that whole process. So in other words, if the map looks funny to you, you're like, nah, can you do it again? The map looks stupid, orJack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. You'll giveMichael Jamin:Those kind ofJack Burditt:Notes. Yeah, yeah. Until you're told we have no more money and no more.Michael Jamin:It's like,Jack Burditt:Oh. And then you're like, oh, it looks fine.Michael Jamin:You know what though? But yeah, when we did Maryland, which is such a low budget show, if there was one shot, the cameras in front of the door at the door of a house and the door swings open, and for a fraction of a second, you can see the camera looking in the reflection of the camera in the door, but only if you're looking and only for a half a frame. And they said, oh, we'll just take that out. The post-production super supervisor says, Hey, we have some money, we'll take it out. I'm like, why bother? I didn't see it,Jack Burditt:ButMichael Jamin:It was going to cost a lot of money. I was like, I don't, is this really matter to us? But they did. They removed it. I was amazed. It was like a $5,000. And it doesn't make the show better. It just doesn't make it worse, I guess, right?Jack Burditt:Yes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So interesting. What do you say, I don't know. What's it like with working with young writers now? What do you say to the young writers? Tell me,Jack Burditt:What do you say? I mean,Michael Jamin:What's it like working with young writers because you are still working in network? Big shows. I'm on mostly low budget shows where it's like three people complaining or whatever. IJack Burditt:Mean, it's fun. Yeah, it's fun working with young writers. They're soMichael Jamin:Enthusiastic.Jack Burditt:They are very enthusiastic. And then look, I mean, on Santa Clauss in season one, I mean, our two staff writers came in and pitched this whole Santa Claus mythology to dive into, and it's really become a big part of the show. TheyMichael Jamin:Pitched it before they got hired, or when they got hired,Jack Burditt:When they got hired.Michael Jamin:So they came in on their own. They said, Hey, what about this? And thatJack Burditt:Sounds smart, and let's really dive into the mythology of Santa Claus and past Santa Clauses and Oh, wow. And it really kind of opened a lot of avenues and it made it interesting. And I honestly think it bought us, when we did it last year, it's supposed to be one time limited series, and it did really well. But I also think that storytelling that the staff writers brought in kind of helped get a second season to, that's interesting. Oh, there's other areas that dig, get we. It's not just about Tim Allen playing Scott Calvin as Santa Claus, and he got a family. But there's this entire world, and I don't know the mythology world that much. I watched some of these shows or whatever, but I never broken them down before. But these writers were just, a lot of the young writers, they're very much into that. And soMichael Jamin:I have noticed that too. When we work with young writers, they're very enthusiastic, very. And a lot of them come in, it's day one, and they got piles of ideas and the showrunner's, all right, and then what do we got? And they come up, they start pitching their ideas and they're like, whew, at least someone came prepared. Let's do their idea. Because the older writer's like, I don't really know. We'll have to bang our head up against the wall. But the young kids, they got ideas. Let's do those. Yeah, yeah. They're enthusiastic, but, and so I want to go through some of your credits here. You have so many interesting, I don't know. I guess, tell me how you, I guess let's start with this. How did you first break into the business?Jack Burditt:It was almost like, it should have been expected of me, but I kind of went away from it. So both my parents did this, right? I mean, originally from Cleveland, my dad was a greeting card writer, but then some of his friends, his greeting card friends started moving out to LA and working on variety shows and things like that. And at some point my dad, like midlife decides, yeah, I'm going to give that a try.Michael Jamin:Fuck all this sunshine greeting cards. This is some comedy. And when you say midlife, how old was he?Jack Burditt:He was in his fortiesMichael Jamin:And he broke in his forties.Jack Burditt:He broke in his forties, I guess it was a different time. Yeah. So we stayed in Cleveland while my dad came out and for a year tried to make it and then got on a show, a variety show, and he is like, all right, looks like I got a good job andMichael Jamin:Out. And what show was that though? Do you remember? It was a,Jack Burditt:Yes. So it was a show called Turn On, which is famous for being canceled. Even almost halfway through the airing of the first episode.Michael Jamin:At the first act, we got to get this thing off.Jack Burditt:There were so many calls to the network, which I, I'm trying to remember. Maybe A, B, C, maybe N B C.Michael Jamin:Why? Because there were so messy, there were soJack Burditt:Many calls complaining about it. It was done by some of the same people that did laughing and it was like, let's take laughing, but speed it up even quicker and make faster jokes and go all and make it insane. So yeah, it had a 13 order, so that's why we moved. He moved the family out here and then boom, after one episode, he's out of work.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. It's hilarious. We, that's so funny, Steve. And we did a show once and we had a long, kind of a long contract. I go, what if we have to stay on this show? He goes, Steve's like this show's canceled up the act pretty soon as they air. And he was kind of right. Okay. So then after that show, what happened after the show was canceled to your dad? SoJack Burditt:Then thankfully a little bit after that, then he started writing on the Andy Williams show and which was done at N B C and Burbank. And we lived in an apartment a block from Burbank. And so kind of grew up around it. I grew up in Burbank, and then he did other variety shows. Sonny and Cher was the big one. He did, but he did a lot of things. You probably never heard of the Lola Ana show, the Hudson Brothers show. He did. But I guess the mid seventies he really started, he started realizing variety shows are going away.Michael Jamin:Well, there were a ton of them. There was Donny and Marie. I mean, it was the realJack Burditt:Big deal. But he, I wanted to make the switch to sitcoms and he had a writing partner and they wrote a Jeffersons, they wrote on Jeffersons, they wrote all in the Family and Sanford and Son,Michael Jamin:All amazing shows.Jack Burditt:And then the guys who ran the Jeffersons started three, each company. And then that's what my dad and his partner did. They jumped ship and they went on this new show, threes company, which was just this massive, massive hit.Michael Jamin:But all those shows were massive. All of my favorite shows, I didn't know he did three's company. Oh my God.Jack Burditt:Yeah. So I think he wound up writing probably more episodes of Three's company than anybody. I think SoMichael Jamin:Did you go to set a lot? Did what wasJack Burditt:Growing? Yeah, and it was funny. So yeah, I was kind of fascinated by it. I got a kick out of it. I never thought of it as a career. I'm like, my brother and my sister are really smart. I'm kind of the dummy of the family.And I always thought, oh, maybe they'll do something in there. My brother would make home movie. He is always making movies with those Super eight. But yeah, I just going, I thought it was fun to, I would go to Sonny and Cher, go to see those tapings, and then down the hall all in the family would be shooting and my dad would go, you want to go down to see Hall in the family? Yeah. I went down and just some dump, dump kid wandering around C B s television City. And then we'd go by and I'd watch Carol Burnett being filmed and amazing. And never occurred to me that this could be a career in any way.Michael Jamin:I don't know why your dad was doing it.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I don't know. I really, because like these are all smart, funny people doing it, I guess.Michael Jamin:And then when you went into the, weren't you in the military after? Did you not or was there somebody else? No. Oh, okay. Alright. So what? I wasJack Burditt:Not, my daughter went in the military, somebodyMichael Jamin:Thinking, no, I know, but I thought you did. But I guess, or I didn't wait, but IJack Burditt:Know. No, no, no. I, oh, I worked at Lockheed. I did. I mean, thatMichael Jamin:Makes mean they make stuff in theJack Burditt:Military's. I worked on missiles. So maybeMichael Jamin:What did you do in the missiles? What did you put gunpowder in it?Jack Burditt:I honestly, I don't think I'm allowed to say everything I did. Is thatMichael Jamin:Right? You had security clearance?Jack Burditt:Probably shouldn't have said missiles. I can say missiles. It's been a long time. We know Lockheed, they made missiles, so Right.Michael Jamin:Wow. My college roommate, he was on Secret Service detail for many years. And when I ran him to at college reunion, I hadn't seen him many years and I was like, dude, I can't believe we're on Secret Service. How many of them are many are there on the Secret Service detail? And he goes, that's classified. I go, that's the answer I wanted. That's all I wanted. I don't care about the number, I want you to tell me it's classified. Okay. Alright. So then at what point after you decided you didn't want to make missiles anymore, did you get into comedy writing?Jack Burditt:So the one thing I did know I could do was write,Michael Jamin:How did you know?Jack Burditt:Just in high school, I mean, like I said, I'm kind of a dummy and I barely graduated from high school. And the only way I graduated from high school was I loaded up on any course that had writing in it. I can bss my way through this. So I knew that. Also knew I enjoyed writing. I would just write stuff all the time. And then I liked journalism a lot. And so after high school, did a little bit of college, but not really didn't. And I worked at Magic Mountain as the right operator. AndMichael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Jack Burditt:Got yeah, started going out with another ride operator, and at some point she got pregnant and we're like, eh, let's get married. See how this goes. We're dumb teenagers. And we got married and we're still married today.Michael Jamin:But then didJack Burditt:So because of that, because I had to be responsible. I can't continue working as a riot operator. Then I worked at Lockheed, and that's where I did the missiles thing. But my wife, her friend worked at the Daily News, Los Angeles Daily News, and she knew I was interested in journalism and she got me a job as they called 'em copy boys at the time. They're editorial assistants, basically a PA for newspapers. And back then stuff still came over. The wire wasn't computer and you'd rip the wire and get different people. So I was working there for a few months and still hustling, trying to pitch editors on, can I write something? And they're like, who is this dumb kid? But then, yeah, I met the entertainment editor and just started hanging around and he took a liking to me and I got an assignment to interview a band. And that was my first, it was my first writing gig, my first professional writing.Michael Jamin:What was the band?Jack Burditt:It was a country group called Alabama. Oh,Michael Jamin:Sure. But that's not sitcom, right? That's not narrative.Jack Burditt:No. And I was really happy working for newspapers. I really enjoyed it. But while I was working there, I was working with a couple other reporters who wanted to get into script writing, and they had heard at one point about my dad.Michael Jamin:They're like,Jack Burditt:Why aren't you doing this? Yeah. I'm like, he does it. And he does it really well. I don't guess that's the biggest part of it is my dad did it so well. I didn't want to be the guy who's trying to do the same thing and being bad at it. Interesting. And I think that was always a fear, but one of these reporters, he had been in special forces and he wanted to write action movies. So the three of us would sit there and write these spec action movies, scripts, we'd get drunk a lot too, and doing that. And we got an agent, not a very good agent, but we got an agent and nothing was happening with that. And at some point I was like, you know what? We should try tv. And the guy who was in the Special Forces, he's like, I don't like tv. I don't watch tv. And he really didn't. But I think I convinced, I think at one point we wrote a cheer speck and I, I wrote a lot and I mostly wrote specs on my own. I just liked writing. I mean, geez, I probably wrote, so wrote the cheers. You wrote a Roseanne. Wow. Probably a home improvement.Michael Jamin:But did you really know then how to write, how act breaks? Did you really, I, there's a difference between knowing how to writing and enjoying writing and knowing how to write.Jack Burditt:So I didn't know what I was doing. And so I didn't really go to my dad for advice. And by this point, my mom was also became a television writer. She was writing in one hours, and I did not bug them about it. And it was just idiotic. And I think there was an embarrassment on my part or I, I'm not sure exactly why. So interesting. But I got a job reading scripts picking up, so did it for Tristar, did it for Disney Channel, did it for a couple play as a script reader and doing notes. And that to me was the education really. And I started to really see what worked, what didn't,Michael Jamin:The scripts.Jack Burditt:And I remember I read a couple books and read articles on writing, and it was always, those first 10 pages better be great. And I did discover a world where so many people had a really strong first 10 pages, and then it all fell off a cliff. And I'm like, no, I think it's those middle of the scripts that if you can nail that, then you're in good shape.Michael Jamin:But when did you, because for me, it really took many years, even as after we became professional writers, before I really kind of understood how to write. Yeah, it was mostly relying on more senior writers to do the heavyJack Burditt:Lifting. Right, right.Michael Jamin:Well, when did you figure that out?Jack Burditt:I mean, yeah, I don't know. Like I said, I did the script reading. I was still doing journalism, did the script reading on the side, and I think that really helped. Then I got a job at Disney as a script reader, and I was like full-time on the lot doing that. And then I was just around it and around people who talked about scripts and which is really, I would go to meetings that I should not have been in. I was in meetings with Michael Eisner and Jeffrey, and where they're talking about projects coming up and how to do this or do that. And I also didn't know my place. I would, I remember one point argue with Eisner, and then after the meeting, my boss said, you can never do that again.Michael Jamin:We did the show for him. This was a Michael Eisner show, and we would try to, he was a good boss, but we would try to convince him if he was stuck on something, there was no way you were going to change his mind ever. Not in a million years. And so it was his way. Okay. But for the most part, he let us do what we wanted, but once in a while he'd say, no, we're not going to do it my way. Well, you have the money. SoJack Burditt:There was one point, so there was a project, it was for the Disney Sunday movie, and Disney had signed these triplets, they're called Creole Creole triplets, and they're cute, I think 16 year olds. And Jeffrey Katzenberg wanted a show where, or a movie where on their 16th birthday, they discovered their witches. And so it was kind of charmed before Charmed. And I had been in those meetings where Kastenberg talked about it. So they hired a writer, and that writer, the first writer they got didn't really nail it. And then I had been in those meetings, I gave notes on it. They wanted me to give notes and say, this is what it should be. And then they wound up going with another writer, and she wasn't nailing it. And I gave notes and she did another pass. And it's like, I know this isn't what he wants. And so I did what you're not supposed to do. And over a weekend, I wrote, rewrote the first 30 pages of the script. And I went in Monday and I gave it to my boss, and I said, here's what I did. And she said, you can get fired for this.Michael Jamin:Why can't you get fired for that?Jack Burditt:Because I'm a reader. I'm not allowed to take a project and do my own pass on it. ButMichael Jamin:Why not though? BecauseJack Burditt:I don't know, there'sMichael Jamin:Still her version and then there's your version.Jack Burditt:It is a rule. Or maybe they just wanted to fire me. I don't know. Okay.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't know how the rules were. Okay, so you did this and she said, you shouldn't do this.Jack Burditt:She goes, yeah. She goes, you can get fired for this. I go, I know, but could you read it? And later that day, she came into my office, she goes, this is really good. I want to pass it up. But once again, I passed it up, you might get fired. I went, okay. And it got passed up and Kastenberg said, have this guy write the script,Michael Jamin:Then fire him. AndJack Burditt:That was your, so that was my firstMichael Jamin:Break,Jack Burditt:Yeah. Wow. And it never got made,Michael Jamin:Right?Jack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Because things don't get made. That's how itJack Burditt:Is. Things don't get made. But then it got me, I started rewriting some Disney Channel projects and a couple, yeah, it was all these things. Nothing ever got made. I remember I was hired to write the new Mickey Mouse Club and then suddenly lost the job. And I still don't know what happened. I was you. And they're like, nah, yeah, no, you're not going to do it after all. Or that was, wow. The one with Ryan Gosling and Britney Spears andMichael Jamin:Oh my God, wow. Launched them and could've launched your career.Jack Burditt:I know I could be hanging out with all of 'em now. It'd be so much fun. So I was doing that, still working newspapers at times, still doing some script reading, the whole script reading career too. I was like always liked looking for things. And I think the only success story I ever had was I found an article in American Heritage Magazine about a newsboy strike in the 19 early 19 hundreds against Pulitzer and Hearst and I passed along because Disney was always looking for things for kids that kids could be in. And I said, Hey, I think this might be a movie. I never pitched it as a musical or anything. I thought it was a straight ahead thing, but it was like NewsiesMichael Jamin:And they, right, that became that. But you didn't have, so just whatever your job was to come up with ideas or you found an idea, you pitched it, or you put up the ladder, but you didn't get any credit. You don't get dirt. No, no. It was just, that sucks.Jack Burditt:And that's it. But yeah, also, I made money reading scripts for years, and that was the only thing that ever,Michael Jamin:Yeah, but it wasn't, I mean, you were raking it in as a script reader,Jack Burditt:Right? No, no. Right. No, no. It was mostly, it was actually a tough job for the little money. But like I said, I think that's where I learned everything. So that was helpful. And then I was still kind of kicking around, picking up little projects where I could and still work in newspapers. And I covered the riots in 92, the LA riots, and was so shook up by it. And so I really thought it was going to die up there. Everything was terrifying. And at this point, I got four kids. I'm, none of them will ever be able to go to college or anything, just scraping by. And I was like, I really need to write a great spec and try to get into sitcoms. It was finally, then I'm like, I'm really going to try this. And I wrote a Seinfeld spec that got wound up getting me with contacts I'd made Wound up getting me a really good agent. And within a few months I was on mad about you on the staffMichael Jamin:That was. And how many years were you on Mad About YouJack Burditt:Two? I did two Years On Mad About You.Michael Jamin:That was a really good show. And then Frazier, of course. And then, and most also, well, not most recently, but pretty recently, modern Family. The thing that strikes me about Modern Family is everyone in that room, I imagine it was a showrunner, potential showrunner had run shows. It'sJack Burditt:Crazy.Michael Jamin:It was really a talented room.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, yes, it was. I like being on a show early on and really being able to put whatever fingerprints I can on it and direction and take character. Oh, let's do that. I like being at the creation of something. But there was something really nice about coming into the Modern family at the end, and I only worked on the last three seasons of that show. And just being no stress, no pressure. It's just, I'll tell some of my weird family stories and maybe they'll go in the episodes andMichael Jamin:Because it must be nice knowing that anyone in that room is capable. It's okay if you're having an off day, someone else would be fine. You're in good hands no matter who's talking.Jack Burditt:It was an amazing, amazing room.Michael Jamin:It's unusual.Jack Burditt:Or rooms becauseMichael Jamin:There's multiple rooms. And did you go back and forth, because obviously Steve ran Run Room and Chris together, but did you jump back and forth, or were you in someone's room most of the time?Jack Burditt:I think the first season I was there, I was mostly in Steve's the second season. It was about half and half in the third season that I was mostly,Michael Jamin:Do you know why,Jack Burditt:Chris?Michael Jamin:I would be like, wait, does he not like me? And then if I got into that room, wait a minute, he doesn't like me anymore. I would be paranoid no matter what roomJack Burditt:I was in. Yeah, right.Michael Jamin:But it was just they wanted to mix it up or what?Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, yeah, that first year, whatever room you started in, you were kind of there. And when I say first year, my first year, it was year nine of the show, and then there was an concerted effort. The writer said, you know what? That got too weird last year. Let's always keep mixing it up.Michael Jamin:Okay.Jack Burditt:And so season 10, we really, everybody I think did about half and half.Michael Jamin:You can answer this now, but did you, before you got there, did you watch every single episode or no?Jack Burditt:Yeah, so I had watched a show a pretty much every week, I think the first three seasons and then what happened in life. And so when I knew I was going to go on the show, I got episodes four through eight, and I just watched them all, which is a horrible way to do it. Why? Because I just bing because nothing lands. Oh. Because then I found myself pitching things and they're like, we already did that. And I'm like, really? And then they would tell me the story. I'm like, oh yeah, I saw that.Michael Jamin:Was that the one I slept through? Is that,Jack Burditt:And I felt like, I think I waited too late, like, oh, I'm going to start there next week. I got to binge every episode.Michael Jamin:Wow. And then of course, yeah, you created Last Man Standing. Now you working with Tim Allen again, and yeah, I don't know. What do you see? What does the future look like? I don't know. How has it changed for you? What's your perception? What's going on with the future of writing?Jack Burditt:Future of writing? I mean, make meMichael Jamin:Feel good.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I makes me feel good. Yeah. I decide I have to stop, have to censor myself on the picket line because yeah, I message, look, it's rough. I think what we talked about earlier, young writers are not learning the skills to run a show or whatever. And it's really, I think that has to change, I think for the sake of the business. But I don't know mean for the future tough. I hope we've hit the low point right now and that things get a little bit better. But the business is broken in a way too. And I think business has to figure itself out. And as much as writers got to figure out what their place is in the business, but I keep hearing not all these streamers will exist in a couple years. Right? And I'm like, what does that mean though, too? And our network's dead or not? Or I don't know any of this. I it's, and I've never felt like I don't have a handle on the business, but right now, I don't know.Michael Jamin:It's interesting. We sold a pilot to, I don't want to say which one, we, to a streamer, this is, I don't know, a year or so ago. And then we turned it in and it just sat on someone's desk for probably close to a year before they finally said, it's dead. It took 'em that long to say. Yeah. And then I think what happened was, usually you find out in a couple of weeks or whatever, but I think what happened was they couldn't decide if the streamer was dead or not. It wasn't really about their show. Oh, it was about the future of the streamer. I think that's what they're thinking about. It's like, are we really going to do this? Why are we in business? So I don't know.Jack Burditt:I can't believe Netflix is thinking that way, butMichael Jamin:Between me and you, you'll hear it here first. You heard it here first,Jack Burditt:ButMichael Jamin:You know what though, Jack, you are like us. I said this to Andy Gordon because, and Andy obviously, he just really enjoys writing. And you're the same way. I feel like you're just like, Andy will write and whatever. I don't really care. I'll just write something. As long as I'm writing, I do it the same way. Yeah,Jack Burditt:It, I mean, yeah, I'm always just writing things, just I do enjoy it. And Andy, you're right. Andy is another person I know, just loves it. Loves, yeah. Andy not only loves writing so much, loves everything about the business.Michael Jamin:He does. He does.Jack Burditt:And it's infectious being around him. Yeah. How much he loves it. HeMichael Jamin:Loves it. He'll take pictures. We did a show, did show in the scrim in the back, the background on stage was you could see his house. It was a Hollywood scrim, and you could see his house in that hill. And he was so excited to see his house in the scrim. Yes. That's awesome. Because he always walks around with a camera. He captures every moment. So exciting to him.Jack Burditt:He's also just one of the funniest writers. That's hilarious. And just shoot me when you're, I'll say being in that room, that was such a great room. And I also just remember, I do love, right? And I, I'll work harder than everybody. I also feel like I'm not as funny as in that room. I'm like, I know I'm not as funny as Andy or Danny or you.Michael Jamin:I don't put thatJack Burditt:Jack. No, no. Absolutely. 100% I, I'd be in that room and I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to out. Funny. These guys maybe work. And I did have a nice reputation. The best thing I've had is that I turn in great first drafts. You do. And that always my thing. It's like I don't eat or sleep when I'm working on a draft. And I just, because out of fear, I got to be as good as everybody else who's just so naturally funny. I don't know.Michael Jamin:AndJack Burditt:I would just grind and grind and grind. And even when we're in a room and going down a road and everybody's pitching really funny things, I'm like, I'm not going to be able to join in and out, pitch them. So my whole strategy was always, is there another way to go with this story?Michael Jamin:How funny. AndJack Burditt:So sometimes I would just, sometimes I couldn't figure it out and I would just be a quiet in the corner. Other times it'd be like, yeah, that's great. What if we did that? And I felt like that was, sometimes my skill is like,Michael Jamin:But even, but wait. But if that, well, first way was getting traction. If the first idea was getting traction, you wouldn't derail it with a pitch that said, what about that? IJack Burditt:Wouldn't, no. But I would like, no, not saying send the whole story, but another way to wrap up that scene or another way to try to come up with just something if it's heading some to surprise people and Yeah, this is funny. This is funny. It's going this way, this way. Oh, that happens.Michael Jamin:I don't know. What season just showed me was we were in one of the bungalows, I don't know, whatever it was. I have a clear, remember of you coming out of your office, you are off on draft on script, and you come and you were just exhausted. And it was just like, oh man. Poor Jack is on script. Yeah, you were really in it, man. You were when you're on script. Yeah, I remember that really well. You were suffering and you always turn in terrific drafts. I don't know what you're talking about, because it was always funny on page. And the most important thing is it funny on, and I don't even know how you did it, because when ER and I worked together, we know it's funny because the other person's laughing, but I always felt like, how do you know it? Because how do you know? I don't know how you did it alone. I really don't. Like how do you know it was going to be funny when you turned it in?Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, always felt like though there, it felt like almost every draft I turn in, there was always one or two jokes where people go, I don't get this. And I'd be like, I'd start to defend it and then realize like, yeah, no, it doesn't make sense.Michael Jamin:Don't get it either. I thought I was going to pull a wool over your eyes, butJack Burditt:Do youMichael Jamin:Keep some kind of notebook now when you have ideas or what do you do?Jack Burditt:No, I used to carry a notebook everywhere I went. Really? I don't anymore. And I don't know. At some point I'm like, eh, if I don't remember it, it wasn't that good to begin with. But I know there's a couple things I've forgotten. I'm like, I know. That was good. I can't remember what that wasMichael Jamin:Exactly. What Siebert and I say when we're on Tacoma fd, because we don't take a lot of notes. And there always our feelings. Well, if you don't remember, it was probably no good. No, but it was good. I dunno, maybe I should write it down, I guess. Oh, we should feel like you can come with something else. It's like it's not the end of the world. You come up with something, a better joke or whatever. Right. Anyway, that's so funny. Well, Jack, I want to thank you so much. This is an interesting talk. I really enjoyed this. I definitely enjoy getting your perspective on all of this, damn, honestly. And I have to, I'll say one last thing before I let you leave. You were always very support. I was a younger writer on just Shoot me. And you were very supportive of me. And I remember you sticking up for me one day and I really appreciate that. I don't remember what the details, but I said something, it was a joke. We were pitching on something. It was probably 10 o'clock at night. I was by by exhaust. And I pitched something that was kind of incoherent andSomeone started making fun of me, which you're supposed to do in the writer's room. You're supposed to make fun of the other person. But you came to my defense, you're like, no, this is his process. This is how he comes up with stuff. Leave him alone. And I always remembered that and little things like that. It's important. Oh,Jack Burditt:Well, itMichael Jamin:Really meant a lot. Really meant a lot to me.Jack Burditt:No, I liked your process too, because it was all out loud and you would try to, that's theMichael Jamin:Bad part.Jack Burditt:No, but it was interesting to me like, oh, I feel like it's what happens in a music studio, and I'm trying to figure out the thing. Yes, most people I think would keep it, try to figure it out in their head. But I also felt like with your process, because trying to get it right, you would throw something out and then work it and work it. But I also felt like there were times where you throw something out and you started working it, but then somebody else would pick up on it and I'm like, oh, maybe. To me it was like I always kept it inside until I felt like was I was 100% cooked and I probably shouldn't have at times. At times I'm like, I should have thrown something out that was half cooked and maybe gotten some help.Michael Jamin:But that's the thing. And I feel like I should have, I have not say everything out loud. That also can be a burden. When you're just spewing on stuff that's not ready to be heard, then everyone's shut up. So I can think, but how I think it's like whatever you're doing, you're always, am I doing it right? Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Whatever you're doing. I always feel like I'm probably doing it the wrong way. Someone else is doing it better.Jack Burditt:Right. Well, and that's one, and this, I guess would be the advice for younger writers if they ever happen to get into a room too. Yeah. It's just one thing I learned very late in life on this is every writer in that room is terrified that they're failing. Even the veterans, even ones have been doing it a long time, they're just like, oh shit. Oh man, if I don't, I got to get their, everybody is in their own heads, but do youMichael Jamin:Still feel that though? I mean, do you feel like other veteran writers that you currently work with or work with in the recent past feel that way still?Jack Burditt:I think the really good ones feel thatMichael Jamin:Way. Really?Jack Burditt:Yes.Michael Jamin:They feel like they're, they're stru. This is all garbage. It's all gone downhill. Yeah. Really. The good ones interesting. I'll have to get names from you, but I certainly feel like whenever we start a script, I'm like, ah, crap. You know what I really feel, I felt like, and I remember on Just Shoot Me Feeling This, every time you write a story, you break someone. We would break a story in the room and I always felt like, well, that's it. There's no more stories. That's it. How could there be more? It took us how took a week to figure out this one. Yes,Jack Burditt:Yes. Yeah. I know. It was all, yes. Especially those times where it really took a long time.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jack Burditt:How did that take so much? We're we're done. Yeah, we, we've explored these characters too much and now,Michael Jamin:But you must've felt that way in Modern Family though, when you've done season nine,Jack Burditt:Right? I mean, yeah.Michael Jamin:You've done everything. I mean, I know in Simpsons they say, yeah, but we've only done it three times. Right.Jack Burditt:So we can still do it was this week. One more time out of it,Michael Jamin:But that shows 30 years old or whatever.Jack Burditt:God. But it's incredible.Michael Jamin:Alright, well Jack, thank you again so much. Yeah, it really was such a pleasure. This is a good talk. Alright everyone, until next week, keep tuned. Keep writing is what I all, I always say. Alright. Thanks again, Jack.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @ MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

Stephen Engel is an Emmy Nominated Showrunner of Dream On. He's known for The Big Bang Theory, A.N.T. Farm, Mad About You, and Just Shoot Me! Join Michael and Stephen as they discuss how Stephen broke in, what it takes to make it in Hollywood, and how he approaches story.Show NotesStephen Engel on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0257145/Stephen Engel on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_EngelFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. My next guest is a great dude and one of the first dudes I've ever worked with in Hollywood as a TV writer, Mr. Stephen Engel. And his credits are, well, geez man. These guys come fantastic credits. Dream on which you ran. He was the showrunner of Dream on. I did. We're going to talk about that because that was one of my favorite shows. Mad about You. All right. Already. Which you created. You co right? You co-created it orStephen Engel:You created I didn't create it. I ran it though. You ran it? Executive. I supervised an executive who the pilot and then ran the series. Co-ran the series.Michael Jamin:All right. Okay. Just shoot me, which we worked on together. Work With Me. Which that were you cr Wait,Stephen Engel:Did you create That? I created, that I createdMichael Jamin:Now was it work with Me or Work With Me? ItStephen Engel:Was work with me. It was work with me. It was Work with meMichael Jamin:Inside Schwartz, which I know you created and I, yes. Remember I helped out for a day or a day and a half. Yeah. I think I gave you a three hours worth of work in a day and a half.Stephen Engel:It was very appreciated.Michael Jamin:The big house. Yeah. Quintuplets, the war at Home, big Bang Theory. Ant Farm, mighty Med Sigman and the Sea Monsters. Yeah. Yeah. You got a lot of credits, dude. Now I,Stephen Engel:I've been around. I've been around. You'veMichael Jamin:Been around. Tell me, well, let's first begin with the beginning. Okay. Because I know you started as a lawyer.Stephen Engel:That is correct.Michael Jamin:And how long were you lawyering?Stephen Engel:It felt like forever, but it was really only three years maybe. AndMichael Jamin:This is in New York, right out of law school.Stephen Engel:I went to law school, which was a very big mistake. I knew within a month that I'd made a terrible mistake, maybe sooner.Michael Jamin:But why?Stephen Engel:I just got there. I went straight from college. Really? Cause I didn't know what else to do. And back then I didn't know I lived in New York. I grew up in a town away from you. And I didn't know what the TV was. I didn't know anything about. And so I was good at going to school. So I went to law school, I applied, I got into a good law school. I went and I just got there and it was like just stultifying, if that's the word it was. ButMichael Jamin:I thought, what I've heard is that law school is interesting. It's being a lawyer. That's not fun.Stephen Engel:No, I had all through college, I wasn't really do a lot of creative writing. I didn't take creative writing courses. But I was actually looking back at some, I found some of my old economics papers and I reread them and I wrote them as if they were Woody Allen vignettes for the new they, they had these big tee ups that were comedic. And then I would get into the substance, but it was with examples that were funny. And then I would sort of sum them up at the end and my professor would always be like, thank you. After reading 25 papers, there's a pleasure to read something that was entertaining. Oh,Michael Jamin:That's nice. SoStephen Engel:When you get to law school, there was no leeway for that. It was, everything was just completely dry. So intellectually it was kind of interesting, but it was very creatively stifling.Michael Jamin:But as a kid you didn't do any creative. No. You were in the theater, you weren't doing anything like that?Stephen Engel:No, not really. I mean, I was interested in comedy. If I look backwards, I could see all of these things that I did. I did a TV show in college, a game show that I wrote and hosted. I taught a class on 20th century humor and satire. So all of the things were there. In retrospect, you could see a path that was leading to writing comedy. But I didn't know that it was a job. And it wasn't really until law school that I started exploring doing comedy. I started doing standup a little bit. Really?Michael Jamin:I didn't know that.Stephen Engel:Yeah.Michael Jamin:But then how did you realize it was a job? At what point?Stephen Engel:At the time, I had a friend who was doing from college who was doing standup also. We, our girlfriends were best friends and he was a year behind me. He was applied to law school, didn't go and decided he wanted to try to break into writing. And we were both doing standup. And then we said, we just started talking and said we should write a movie. We're like, okay. So we kind of got together one weekend. He was living in la I was in NYU law school. I interviewed for law at law firms in California. So they would fly me out so that we could get together and talk about movie ideas.Michael Jamin:OhStephen Engel:Wow. Yeah. So we came up with an idea. We started writing separately and we knew nothing. We literally knew nothing about writing screenplays. We just had seen movies and you knows. And so we were like started writing this idea that we thought it was really great. We had about 50 pages that we thought were fantastic. So we ended up through, a friend of a friend had lunch with a guy who was a professional screenwriter and he told us, you know, should read this book screenplay by Sid Field, which everyone should read. They're trying to write. So we read this book and we're like, oh no, you're doing it wrong. We dunno anything. And we realized that the 50 pages that we wrote that we thought were gold should have been five pages. Nothing was happening. It was just character development, character development, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, funny scenes. So we took those 50 pages, compressed them down to five pages and came up with a proper structure. And then we were writing this whole movie. Well, he was pursuing his career and I was a lawyer guy guy's name by the way is Rob Burnett, who we were writing partners. And he went on to great success at David Letterman. And he was executiveMichael Jamin:Producer of le. But was he the head writer or executiveStephen Engel:Producer? Head writer, executive producer. And basically president of Worldwide Pants. And we wrote five movies together for studios, various studios. And ultimately I got a job on Dream On and moved out to LA to write by myself because he was writing a Letterman by himself. And at that point we didn't need to collaborate because we both had individual careers.Michael Jamin:You skipped a step. How did you get hired on Dream On?Stephen Engel:Okay. He and I were writing this movie. I got a law job when I graduated. They, I'd worked there for the summer. They offered me a job when I graduated. And I did the first risky thing I'd ever done in my life. I had never done anything remotely rebellious. And I decided that I was going to take probably the first gap year that anyone ever took. Oh wow. I asked the firm if I could defer my job for a year because I was trying to write. They're like, okay, yeah, no problem. You'll have a job waiting for you in a year. So during that year we kept working on this screenplay and trying to finish it and hone it. And he was still working at Letterman and he at that point had had risen from an intern to work in the talent department to being a writer.So he worked with a woman, we finished a screenplay and he worked with a woman. He shared an office in the talent department with a woman who had been there a long time and decided to leave to become a manager. And her only client at that point was I think Chris Elliot who had been on Letterman. So he knew, she knew that we had this movie because Rob had mentioned, she's like, let me see it when you're done. I'll see if I could do anything with it. So she read it and she sent it out and got us hired to write a movie for 20th Century Fox. Oh wow. A week before I started my law job. And I didn't want to not start the law job because we were a writing team. It was like guild minimum. I thought this may be the only writing job I ever have and I have a pretty high paying law job. Let me try to do both and keep both paths open as long as I can. So I did that essentially for three years. I practiced law while I was writing the entire time writing movies for studios.Michael Jamin:And Wait, and you were practicing law out here in la?Stephen Engel:I was in New York. YouMichael Jamin:Were still in New York?Stephen Engel:I was still in New York. And essentially the law didn't know what I was doing. So I had this double life where I was treating my law job, this very prestigious law job. I was a bartender gig writing movies at the same time. And eventually I couldn't keep all the balls up in the air. The law firm said, you know what? We want you to go, we got a great treat for you. We're going to send you back to law school at night to get your master's in tax law. I'm like, that's fantastic. And I didn't tell them was, now I had two jobs and I was going to school at nightMichael Jamin:And you couldn't turn down. You couldn't turn on their offer.Stephen Engel:I couldn't tell them. And eventually I couldn't do it anymore. I was getting too much work at the law firm. I had school screenplays, deadlines. I just finally kind of went into work one day and just kind of said, I no moss.Michael Jamin:How'd that go over?Stephen Engel:They were like, you know what, this makes so much sense because we were all, you seem really smart and you're really good at what you do, but it just didn't feel like your heart was in it. Yeah, right. So they could tell and it answered a lot of questions for them. So then I quit and decided to write full time panicked that I had just thrown my entire life away. So we ended up getting, because by the way, that manager was Lori David. She went out to marry Lori Leonard who went out to marry Larry David and divorce Larry. David and then produce an Inconvenient Truth as she won an Oscar for that.Michael Jamin:But then she submit you to get, how did you your Hands fund forStephen Engel:Dream On? For Dream on. So I had, eventually what happened was we got a second screenplay deal to write another movie and she said, by the way, I am not allowed to negotiate your deal cause I'm a manager, so I'm going to bring an agent in to negotiate your deal. And we kind of said, well then I guess maybe we should look for an agent rather than just have this guy come in and do the deal and I'm not sure we really need a manager and an agent. Back then you didn't. We ended up getting an agent at icm. Right. A feature agent. And we then did a couple of other projects and eventually I started between drafts of a movie I was writing. Rob by the way, was at this point a writer at Letterman and I quit my law job. So I was like, well if he has a day job while we're writing movies at night, I need my own career as an individual.So I wrote a movie by myself, gave it to my agent, he shopped it around. I got a lot of meetings and stuff. And then I wrote a just a TV spec on the whim between drafts of this movie because I felt like taking a break from it. And I gave that to my feature agent. He gave it to a TV agent at ICM who loved it and started submitting me around. And I ended up meeting with Kaufman and Crane for a show, not Dream On, they had Dream on. And they had another pilot that was going to series on nbc.Michael Jamin:What show was that? AndStephen Engel:It was a show called The Powers that nobody saw. It was with John Forsyth and Right. David Hyde had an amazing cast. So I go to meet with them and my agent had sent me episodes of Dream On and had sent me the pilot of the show. So they come in and they go, what'd you think of the pilot? I go, yeah, it was pretty good, but I really like Dream on. I'd never seen it before. And I kept talking about Dream On and how much I loved it. And we had a really good meeting. And then when I get back, my agent calls me and says, just so you know, when you go up for a show and someone says, how'd you like the pilot? And that's the show you're up for. Yeah. You loved the pilot and it gets the show you want to work on. Right. They're not hiring for Dream on right now and they don't want to hire you on this pilot cause you didn't seem interested, interested. I'm like, okay. Yeah. And then a month later they were hiring for Dream On and they remembered me and they hired me for that instead. So I did. And in fact, I ended up back backing into this job that I much preferred.Michael Jamin:How, but how many years were you dream on before they bumped you to showrunner? Okay,Stephen Engel:So I was a stor. I went as staff writer, not had not worked a day in television. Really? Andy Gordon was Andy and Eileen. It was their first day right writer named Howard Morris. It was his first day. We were all three staff writers, but I had written five movies. So I had a pretty good understanding of story structure and if you can write a movie, you can write a tv. So I did the first season Astor as staff writer. The next season I was a story editor and then the showrunners left and they needed to find a new showrunner and they couldn't find anyone they liked. And eventually they just said, I think Stephen can do it. So I literally went from being my second year, I was a story editor or executive story editor, maybe I got a bump at the end to showrunner.Michael Jamin:That's crazy.Stephen Engel:So I was, I didn't know if I was ready at all. I was just, the only reason to say no would've been out of fear. And I realized worst case scenario, if I completely flame out then so they bring someone in over me and I'm still in the same position.Michael Jamin:And then what were they? Or they fire you, but they getStephen Engel:Rid of you. Well, I don't think they probably would've just kept me around because I was the only one who knew the show.Michael Jamin:And how many years did you run it for?Stephen Engel:I ran for the next two seasons, the last and then the show ended.Michael Jamin:And why do you think they left? Why did they leave the show? Their own show. They had a deal somewhere.Stephen Engel:Har and Crane created the show, ran it for three seasons. They were getting paid like a dollar to do this. They had never done anything. It was insane how little money they were making. And they got a deal at Warner Brothers. So between season two and three, they had created a show before Friends called Family Album. And I went and worked on that between Seasons of Friends, between Seasons of Dream On. And then I went back to Dream on as the showrunner. So the season, the second season, two other writers who had been on, who had been producers, Jeff Greens son and Jeff Straus rose to showrunner, then they left and took a deal at Universal. So there was nobody, because they weren't paying a lot, so people were going to more lucrative jobs. So they needed a showrunner and nobody had else had worked on the show. And they were like, we could bring in someone else who doesn't know the show or we could let Steven try.Michael Jamin:And I mean, you were not intimidated by, I mean, IStephen Engel:Was scared shitless.Michael Jamin:Right. I mean,Stephen Engel:I didn't know what I was doing. I had no idea. I learned, fortunately I learned from really good people,Michael Jamin:But I remember when we worked together and just shoot me the first six episodes. First season, yeah. I was, was useless. And I didn't know what to say. And I would look at you guys, the more senior writers. I'm like, how did they know what to say? How did they know? I mean it was real. I was so lost. Yeah.Stephen Engel:I think part of it had been that I was a little older than you were. I had already been a lawyer for, so I was like 30 when I had my staff writer job. So maybe I was a little bit more confident just in Gen general. You were like 25, 23.Michael Jamin:I was 26. I was 26. Ok. But ok.Stephen Engel:So I had gotten my first writing job when I was 26 writing a movie. And I, so I done a bunch of movies, I understood structure, I had a confidence in that I knew how to tell a story. So I guess I kind of, the first day of Dream On, I remember pitching something where they were telling a story that had a fairly conventional ending where everything worked out really well. And I pitched this subversive twist on it where the character looks like the character was going to win. And then at the end it all got pulled out from under him. And they were all, I think that's better because I had just not really been around network television or even any kind of television. So I was pitching kind of a lot of, I don't know, movie, more movie-like ideas I guess.Michael Jamin:That's so interesting because I really remember, I remember on jhu Me, you would stand at the board a lot. I remember, to be honest, we often disagree with Levitan. And you made such a compelling case and you're always at the board. You had immaculate handwriting and you're always standing at the board breaking the story and you'd make an argument. And it was so compelling. I'm like, maybe we should be listening to this guy. It was dooms. If we don't what's going to happen, of course there's many ways you could do it, but of course I was like, of course. I was like, wow, what's going to happen if we don't do it that way?Stephen Engel:It's very funny. I remember the first season of Dream on Howard Morris who I love. He's a great guy, very emotional guy. And I was very logical in a lot of ways. And he had written a script and he had this whole run that he really was in love with. And the script was long. We needed cuts. And I was like, I think we can cut from here to two pages later. And you really, the story actually, not only would you not miss it, but the story would actually be working better and be more tight. And he was like, you can't do that. You can't possibly do that. This is the greatest thing that's ever been written. It is really good. But I think we need cuts. And I don't think it's actually, and one by one, everybody in the room was like, I think he's right. And he was losing his mind. He was like, right, don't listen to him using his logic on you. He's a magician. And we ended up cutting it and it ended up working better. So it's funny that I guess the legal training came in, I guess to some useMichael Jamin:Well, yeah, I, but I also remember you saying, I quote you as this saying this, that I have to get this right. Your worst day as a writer was still better than your best day as a lawyer.Stephen Engel:It was probably, I'm not sure that's true anymore.Michael Jamin:I believe thatStephen Engel:For a long time that was true. I would say there have been some dark days. But whatMichael Jamin:Do dark days look like then for you? Yeah. What isStephen Engel:It? Well, the day your show gets canceled, right? There were days, there was a, one show got canceled where I was like, oh, thank God. Right? Because I had a deal behind it and it was like a nightmare. And I hated going there every minute. And I was like, I had to go into the room and pretend like I got really bad news. Everyone, the show's been canceled. I was like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. There are sometimes when it's so bad you're like, just end it. Just fucking euthanize me. So that there are days where it show you isn't going badly, gets canceled and then it's kind of heartbreaking.Michael Jamin:Now do you have a preference? Cause you've done a lot. Do you have a preference between working single camera R? Right. Writing.Stephen Engel:I prefer single camera. Why? I think it comes from my feature writing career. It was funny, I made such a conversion when I worked on that show family album with Kauffman and Crane. We went in and there was some joke in my script and it was a good joke I thought. And we go to the table read and it doesn't do great at the table. This is my first time I've ever had been to a multi cam table read ever my first multi cam script. And everyone in the room is kind of like, yeah, I think we maybe want to punch this joke. And David Crane to his credit was like, no, I believe in this joke. And there's a really good smart joke. So we go to the run through first run through, it dies. And again, everyone's like, maybe we want to pitch on this. And David's like, no, no, I really, let's give it one more day. I don't think, I feel like they didn't do a great job on it. Let's give it one more day. By the third day it dies again. And same thing. And David's like, let's give it another day. He goes, I think it's rye. I'm at this point I'm completely converted. I'm like, fuck rye. Rye is fucking crickets.We could pitch 20 more jokes. It took me three days to realize that, you know, can't get away with clever. You need to get real laughs.Michael Jamin:Right.Stephen Engel:And I'd like, I like it. I just like the storytelling in Multicam a little bit better. OrMichael Jamin:Just you, the storytelling multicam better.Stephen Engel:No, no. In single Camm a bit better. Yeah. Frankly, I used to think a perfect job for me would be you write the scripts and then you send them out magazines. You don't actually have to produce them. Oh yeah. That was always where the hard,Michael Jamin:It's never as funny as it is. It's never asStephen Engel:Funny. Sometimes it is. It depends on your cast. But other times it's the rewriting and the endless rewriting. It's just have them read it and let them imagine what it might look like.Michael Jamin:It's called a book.Stephen Engel:It's called a book. Yeah.Michael Jamin:There was a episode, I think it was, not sure if you were there then, but I, I was fighting, I fought with Sievert, my partner about a joke that I wanted in the script. I go, this joke is going to kill. And he's like, this joke is terrible. I'm like, it's going in, it's going. And we got blows over it. We put it in the script, we go to the table and the joke just dies. It gets nothing. And then I start laughing hysterically. He goes like, cause how could I have been so wrong and so arrogant? And I'm laughing hysterically Now everyone's looking at seabird because they're like, it's his joke. You're laughing atStephen Engel:Him. And now I'mMichael Jamin:Laughing even more. I'm like, yeah, it's his fucking trouble.Stephen Engel:There's nothing more humbling than watching your jokes die on a stage. Like after a while you get used to it. But the great thing about single cam on, dream on, we'd write it, we'd go out and film it. And if no one's laughing, you never know.Michael Jamin:You never know. Right. But did you can't believe in it. But you did table reads for Dream on, I'm sure, right? DidStephen Engel:Not do table reads.Michael Jamin:That's so interesting. How did you get away away with that?Stephen Engel:They had no, they didn't. They gave no notes. H B O gave no notes. I remember getting one note one time and being like, I can't work like this. This joke is, I'm not changing this joke. And I was like, indignant a playwright. Eugene O'Neal had beenMichael Jamin:MarriedStephen Engel:To change a stage direction. And then I got to network and it was like, oh, okay.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Now these are notes. This is how it works. When you were, now you've done also a lot of kit shows. I mean, you get a lot of notes on Kit shows more or less. Oh myStephen Engel:God. Yeah. You'd get tons of notesMichael Jamin:More than networks.Stephen Engel:I did. Oftentimes you get a note, it's like, I please take some of these jokes out. I we doesn't need to be this funny,Michael Jamin:Real, what's the problem with, all right,Stephen Engel:I can get you the best punch down. Writers in. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Bring them in. But really they don't want fun. Is that what kind of notes they give you in these show? I did aStephen Engel:Show, did a show this, show this Sigma and the Sea Monsters reboot, which wasMichael Jamin:Very scaryStephen Engel:For Amazon. And the first thing we turned in there, it was very funny. And they were like, we don't really do this. It's like, we don't want this to be funny. As nearly as funny as this script is, it's just don't feel compelled to put a joke on every page. I'm like a joke. You don't want one joke on it on every page. And they're like, no, if it's warm and fuzzy and they just were afraid that it was going to feel too Disney or tooMichael Jamin:NoStephen Engel:Jokey networky or jokey or whatever.Michael Jamin:Because when you look back at sitcoms from the sixties and seventies family affair, there weren't a lot of jokes in Family Affair. I mean,Stephen Engel:No, I think that's what they were going for. They were going for just kind of poignant and sort of warm. They, I feel they felt like jokes would alienate people and be too controversial. Or they kept referring to their viewers as customers,Michael Jamin:Buyers. TheyStephen Engel:Want buyers.Michael Jamin:Buyers,Stephen Engel:Our buyers, our customers don't really want that. I'm like, okay, all right.Michael Jamin:That's so good. I wonder if that's, that's really how they saw them is like, yeah, what else were they going to about?Stephen Engel:Yeah, yeah. It was,Michael Jamin:Oh my God. Did that make the hours easier since you didn't have to punch upStephen Engel:Or doing a sort of family shows?Michael Jamin:Are you getting out earlier?Stephen Engel:Yeah. Yeah. I think so. For the most part. We never phoned it in. We were always trying to do, and we never wrote down the shows that I worked on. We made them as funny as we could and as bendy and weird as we could, oftentimes we would get notes saying, this is too, I think you're, you kids aren't going to get this. But what they don't get, they'll ask their parents or their older siblings and let's not underestimate the audience watching Bugs Bunny cartoons. You're going to still laugh and you may not get every level. So we were kind of writing it for the adults.Michael Jamin:You were able to push back on that.Stephen Engel:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess their recourse was ultimately to cancel you if you weren't doing what they wanted you to do.Michael Jamin:Well, do they have different ways of I they must, different ways of measuring. We haven't done too many streaming shows, but measuring when people are dropping off, what kind of stuff they like more statistics. Do they share that with you?Stephen Engel:No,Michael Jamin:No, never.Stephen Engel:I only did mean the Amazon was the only streaming show and they never really wanted this show. I don't think to begin with. I think it was inherited from the previous regime or something. It was like the whole thing was driven by puppets and they were, if we had our druthers, we wouldn't even have the puppets in it. Well, well the main character is a puppet, so you're kind of stuck.Michael Jamin:So, oh man, that's Hollywood man. Yeah. Now do you, but you must get more obviously opportunities in the children's businesses.Stephen Engel:I don't. I don't. Don't. And I don't pursue them. I didn't really want to do it. Right. I basically did it. I only did it because it was a show writing opportunity and I didn't want work on someone else's show at that point. And I also leveraged it into, I wanted, I said, I'll do it if I can direct.Michael Jamin:Okay.Stephen Engel:So I ended up getting in the DGA and directing a handful of episodes.Michael Jamin:And they were single camera?Stephen Engel:No, they were multiMichael Jamin:Camera, multi and so interesting.Stephen Engel:And it was kind of fun. I mean, I had just sort of aged out of coaching my kids little league and basketball teams and stuff. So they were now just had just more or less finished that. So working on a show, that was almost like being a coach or a camp counselor in a weird way. You'd go to the stage, the kids would be thrilled to see you, you'd get down on one knee and get eye level with them and give them a compliment sandwich. Do you know that from coaching?Michael Jamin:No. What is that?Stephen Engel:A compliment sandwich is basically in baseball you would literally get down on a knee and you'd say you're doing tee-ball. And in tee-ball what happens invariably is a kid hits the ball to left field and every kid on the field runs to get the ball from every position, or at least a handful of them do. So you get down on the knee and you go, I love your hustle and great enthusiasm. Then you put the criticism in the middle and you're like, but you know, need to stay where your position is so that everybody has their own spot. And if the balls it to you, the ball, you know, field it. If the balls it to left field, they field it. But again, great energy and keep up that enthusiasm. So you put the constructive criticism in between two compliments. IMichael Jamin:Would think that they would remember the first thing and the last thing they heard.Stephen Engel:Well, that's great job. We did a joke like that. We did a joke like that where a character on an forum was giving a note to somebody. They were doing a musical performance or something, and the main character said to this other character, I really like your enthusiasm. Try to hit at least any of the notes if possible because your singing's not good at all. But again, great energy. And the character goes, thanks. Hey, thanks.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's what I would, so that's so interesting. And were you dealing with a lot of parents on adult momager orStephen Engel:Whatever? Yeah, there was a lot of that. It was fun, but creatively it was like, I'm done. This I just want to do, I'd rather not work and just write stuff I want to write than write on a kid show at this point. Because I also felt like they weren't really looking for you to do anything smart and that smart or that funny. It's changed. I think they're trying to be more creative and more inventive now, but at the time it just felt like, I don't really feel like doing this anymore. It's just not like someone would say, what are you working on? I'm like, it's not important. Don't worry about it. You're not going to watch it. It's fine.Michael Jamin:WellStephen Engel:Fine for what? But I don't watch it. You're not going to watch it.Michael Jamin:But when you say working on your own stuff now, so whatever, you'll just write stuff on spec and hope toStephen Engel:Sell. Yeah, I'll pitch stuff. I'll write stuff on spec. I've written a bunch of specs recently where I've tried every possible way to skin a cat in this business. I'm like, it's all I'm going to write spec scripts. That way they'll totally see what the show is. And then I would have a bible behind it to pitch all of these things. And I've had a couple of things where I had studios say, let's go out with this, but let's pitch it. You didn't write itMichael Jamin:Right yet.Stephen Engel:I'm like, well, why would you do that? Because I've got it right here. AndMichael Jamin:Because they want to put their thumbprints on, theyStephen Engel:Want to put their imprimatur on it. So the way I put it is, if you give, give someone a baked fully baked cake, they'll be like, this is a, it's a good cake, but I've got this recipe for a cake. Yeah, that's going to be the best cake that's ever been made and we're going to put in all these different ingredients and make it even better. And then that gets turned in and they're like, it's a cake. There's always that unknown potential of what a pitch is going to be. Whereas a spec, they'll go, well, there's this one thing I'm not sure about or this other thing and they want to get involved.Michael Jamin:But have you ever sold anything on spec? BecauseStephen Engel:When you, honestly, I don't think I have. IMichael Jamin:Know haven't written a few.Stephen Engel:I have a project, I have a project right now that it, we're going back and forth on negotiations, negotiating an option for them to, to option the script. And they're trying to decide whether we should go out with the script or go out or whether I should reverse engineer the pitch.Michael Jamin:ButStephen Engel:We have an option. They have an option for a year within a purchase with a purchase price to buy the script. What would happen is if we pitch it, they would basically go, okay, just wait three months and then turn in the script that you've already written because we left the script. But again, it's unclear as to what my feeling is. We should send out the script because the idea and it's in and of itself is not necessarily that unique. It's the execution of the idea. That's unique. Of course. And I think that's what got you interested. If I had just pitched you this idea, you probably would've said, well, I don't know. It seems like there's stuff out there like that. But it was my script that got you excited.Michael Jamin:Right, right. I remember early on, I wonder if you still feel this way. I remember I just shoot me, you telling me, yeah, because you were ready to leave, move on. And you're like, yeah, I want to go back to running a show. And then you did couple many shows. Yeah. But do you still feel that way? Do you care so much whether you're running it or,Stephen Engel:No, I've had good experiences and bad experiences doing both for a while after the big house, which was a good experience. My kids were at that point, maybe, how old were they? Eight and six. And I was running a show was very all consuming. And you, yeah, you never go home. I mean, yeah, even when you're home, you're like, you've got outlines to read, you've got cuts to watch, you've got the weight of the show on your shoulders at all times. You can't get away from it. And I was like, I really want to be more present. I want to be able to go to my kids' games. I want to be come home and be able to relax. So I'm like, I want to go on be someone else's, like consigliere, I'll be the number two. Yeah. I'll go, here's what I would do. Do it. Don't do it whatever you want. And then go home and be like, I'm done for the day. And I did that for a while. And I think in retrospect it sort of took me off of the showrunner showrunner's list for doing that for three or four years. I think people were necessarily remembering or thinking me necessarily when they were looking for showrunners because I was all of a sudden now someone's number two. But I don't regret it because I got to spend the time with my family.Michael Jamin:But now I now want to go back to running. I mean, it is a lot of work,Stephen Engel:My kid, well, right now, honestly, nobody, you know me, but anyone under the age of 40 doesn't, has never worked with me and doesn't know who I am. So for me to get a job on another show, because I, it's been a while since I've worked on a show where with people who would be young enough to go, oh, we need to work with this guy. He's really smart and good and funny. If I'm going to get a job, it's because I'm going to create a show myself and run it. And that's the job I'll have. I don't even know if my agent even submits me. I have no idea. So I'm back to just pitching and writing my own stuff and if it sells, of course I'll run it. So look, they both have their perils. I missed my kind of adolescence as a TV writer. I went from being right a second grader to a college student. I never had that. So I got to go and be on someone else's show. And sometimes it was good and sometimes it was bad. I worked in the Big Bang theory and it was not funMichael Jamin:From a lot of people. TheStephen Engel:Most fun place to work, it was delightful show. But I used to not going to work every day. Right. Cause I didn't take the tone of the show, the work environment, I mean the tone of the show, I was fine not dictating the tone of the show, but I was not enjoying the tone of the work environment.Michael Jamin:I got you. I know what you'reStephen Engel:Saying. So it was not a good experience. I dreaded going every day. It was a job. It, I might as well have been a lawyer again.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Yeah. You've had many experiences like that though. Were you like you pitting your stomach every morning?Stephen Engel:Not that many once on my own show, just because I had a difficult situation with one of the stars who it's not worth going into, butMichael Jamin:At least on the air.Stephen Engel:What'sMichael Jamin:That? At least? At least not on the air. NotStephen Engel:On the air. But most shows have been, some are better than others. I worked on a show that it was very dysfunctional and I've gone into work on shows where, where I had a deal where they were like, we need you to go help on this show. And it's kind of in shambles. I'm like, I'll go in and help, but I'm going in between the hours of 10 and seven. And if they start at five, I'll be there from five to seven.Michael Jamin:But okay, you can make that deal with the studio. But then the minute the showrunner finds out about that, during I made itStephen Engel:With the show, I made the deal with the showrunner.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay.Stephen Engel:Because they needed the help. And I was like, I'm not going down this sinkhole. I've already, I'm in a deal. I don't, I'm doing this. I'm helping out because I want to be a team player, but I'm going to help out within the hours that are reasonable hours. And it was so dysfunctional, people would show up and play guitars for four hours and play ping pong. And I'm like, are we going to work or not work? So I'm like, let me know when we're starting and I'll be there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. I wonder, I don't know if that happens so much anymore. I think that's something that's been cleaned up a little bit.Stephen Engel:I don't know. I don't know mean, look, some shows, some showrunners are not, some creators become writers, become creators are not prepared to be a showrunner. They don't know how to manage a business. That'sMichael Jamin:Exactly right.Stephen Engel:And it's a different skillset being a talented writer and being a manager or a C E o or different skillsets. And some people are lucky enough to have both skills. Some people are good CEOs but not great writers and they need a better team. And some people are great writers and need someone to help them literally get through the day. AndMichael Jamin:People don't realize that because no one goes into comedy writing to become a manager of people. No.Stephen Engel:And if you have the talent, you eventually rise to a level where you're expected to all of a sudden be in charge of 150 people and to show up every day on time and to try to be responsible and actually conduct yourself in a way that's professional. And not everyone can do that.Michael Jamin:And always the trickiest thing. I think as a show runners, no one went to push knowing how far you can push back against a network note or even a difficult actor. Yeah. And what's your thought on that?Stephen Engel:Well, what I used to do is they never would give me a note. The trick to getting and addressing notes is to get them to realize that they're being heard. And you'll say, we're not going to figure this out right now together. I hear you. I know what, I know exactly what to do. And then go off and change it enough that they feel like you've taken their, at least into consideration their thought, their thoughts into consideration. But oftentimes what I would sometimes do is they'd give a note. I'm like, we can do that. But just so you know, here's the ripple effect. If we do that, then this scene here no longer makes sense because this scene that you really love won't make sense because we've already revealed this information. So this scene doesn't play and then this scene doesn't work because whatever this and this and this, we can do it. And I'm have to change those scenes and I'm willing to, but just realize that it's not as simple as making this one change here. There are ripple effects throughout the rest of the script. And they're like, you know what? You're right. Stuff's working great. Don't worry about it.So they don't know. They don't necessarily always see the big picture and understand how pulling one thread could unravel the entire sweater. So I just present it to them and go, would you like me to do that? We can do that. And then they go, no, no. Like I, I hear what you want and I'll massage it without having to do those things. But I hear what you're saying and I'll try to adjust it as best I can without unraveling the whole scriptMichael Jamin:And then working. What about working with difficult actors?Stephen Engel:That's harder. That's harder because you can'tMichael Jamin:Put the words in their mouth. You can't make mistake, you can'tStephen Engel:Make them do it. I mean, had an actor who literally was so he just wanted to take over the show and was, he never should have done it. They backed up a money truck to get him to do it and he didn't want to do it. And he did it reluctantly and didn't wanted it to be his show and not my show. So I think wanted tried to get rid of me and came to table reads with sunglasses on and just looked down the whole time. And which was the best thing that ever happened because the network saw that he was not doing his job. He was doing my job, but he wasn't doing his. But they'reMichael Jamin:Still going to take his side. TheStephen Engel:Show went down, but I didn't get, they were like, you handed yourself really professionally. And that person,Michael Jamin:Were you worried so much about that? Are you worried so much about protecting your reputa reputation like that within the industry? I mean,Stephen Engel:You always have to be a little bit worried. I, I would probably think that just given my, I don't know, I guess I have a, it's maybe it's coming from being a lawyer. I can see, if you tell me, like I mentioned, if we should change this joke or this line or this, do we need this? I can see all of the ramifications all at once. So sometimes I will, by pointing out the flaws in the note, some executives don't want to hear that. They don't want to know. They just want to think that they're right. Or they also want you to basically, I remember in one situation on a show where they were like, we've got great news. The network wants to do a mini room. I'm like, great.Michael Jamin:How's that? Great news? The news?Stephen Engel:I thought the deal was they're either going to pick up the show or not. That's why we went there. It'sMichael Jamin:Great news for us.Stephen Engel:They're like, well, why wouldn't you want to delve into the characters more? And I do, but that's not the deal we negotiated and now you're basically, I have to do all the same work for one 10th of the money. And they didn't want to hear that. So I think sometimes it's just best to be like, and I would also maybe sometimes have a tendency if somebody is lying blatantly to me and I say, wait, I don't understand last, yesterday you said X, Y, and Z, but now you're saying A, B, and C. So I'm confused. And they just want to go. They don't want to be called out on that.Michael Jamin:Right?Stephen Engel:So they're like, look, why are you being difficult? I'm like, I'm not, I'm just asking for clarification. Cause it seems like you're telling me two different things and I don't understand as opposed to just going, okay, I hear you. We'll do it without any. So I think sometimes you just have to swallow your pride and just eat shit and not speak up about it.Michael Jamin:The problem is you're saying, I feel like most of those fights are not winnable.Stephen Engel:They're not winnable. So there's no point in pointing it out. But sometimes I'm just, I don't, don't understand. Just tell me what, what's going on and then we can move forward. But they sometimes they don't even remember what's what they're spinning.Michael Jamin:I don't think I've ever convinced an studio or network executive that I was and they were wrong. I don't think I'veStephen Engel:Ever, it may have been a per victory, but I have.Michael Jamin:You were fired shortly afterwards.Stephen Engel:No, I mean it just may be whatever. Yeah, you're right if you're doing it this way. But in the long run, they just maybe weren't that happy with the direction, generalMichael Jamin:Direction. Right.Stephen Engel:I did the show where this kid show, and it was about a superhero hospital and there were villains and there were heroes and superheroes and super villains. And we wanted the villains and the heroes to have distinct personalities and flaws and be funny. They could be a villain and be funny at the same time. They're like, look, just have them villains. Just be scary and don't give them, they don't have to be funny. But we're writing a comedy and eventually we took a lot of the jokes out, but we didn't want to deliver a show that we didn't believe in. And then ultimately they were like, we did two seasons. And they were like, this is not really what we want to do. So they didn't do a third season. So you either go down with your ship and what you do, the show you want to do and have it not get picked up for another season or do a show for four seasons that you don't believe in.Michael Jamin:Though a lot of people on social media, they say, well, they don't understand. I think all the writers in Hollywood terrible, because if all the shows I'm like, you don't understand how shows are made. It's like, no, no. Sometimes the system is designed to make a show bad and there's really nothing you can do about it other than either,Stephen Engel:I mean, no one's looking to make a show bad. It's just what the creator thinks is good and what the network thinks is good may not be the same thing. There's that famous story about what those guys who did that Stephen Weber show called Cursed,Michael Jamin:I dunno if I know this story. Okay.Stephen Engel:Steven Webber did a show, there was a show starring Stephen Webber, it was called Cursed. It was for n b NBC back in the nineties. And the premise was, Stephen Webber is like this kind of womanizing dating machine who goes on this date and with a I, you shouldn't even say Gypsy, I guess, I dunno if it's derogatory, but a woman who puts a spell on it, he basically ghosts her or doesn't call her or is not nice to her on a date. And turns out she puts a curse on him that he's never going to find love and oh, his romantic life is going to be a disaster. Okay. So the cast, Steven Weber, he's super charming and funny. They decide to pick up the show and they go, we're picking up the show, but we have one elemental change if we'd like to pick. It's a small note. They're like, okay, what is it? He goes, we don't want him to be cursed. They're like all cursed. They're like, well, we can change it. We'll like so. Well, well, the Steven Weber show.Michael Jamin:Okay,Stephen Engel:So now what's the premise about Steven Weber dating?Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. But he is not having a hard time dating. He'sStephen Engel:Just, he either is but there's no curse.Michael Jamin:There's no curse.Stephen Engel:Yeah. Okay. Nig did a show called Inside Schwartz, and the whole idea of it was that you're inside the main character's head. Right. So the idea is that, you know, get to see his internal and hear his internal dialogue with characters he's talking to that only he can see. All right. And at one point about halfway through the series, the president of the network came to run, came to talk to me after a run through and said, look, we really like the main character. He's a great actor, but he's like, we want it to be more of a Michael J. Fox character dives into things without thinking. I'm like, well, the character is written is an overthinker and he's thinking about everything. And we dramatize those in the forms of him talking to these people who only he sees. He goes, well we, no, we don't. We want him to not be an overthinker. We want him to be just to jump into stuff. I'm like, so I'm writing inside Schwartz and you want outside Schwartz, right? And they went exactly perfect. I said, all right, I guess. But at that point it's like, how do you turn a aircraft carrier aroundThrough, and you've got four or five scripts that are ready to go that are all, hold on, I'mMichael Jamin:HollywoodStephen Engel:That are written inside Schwartz, and you want outside Schwartz. And they're like, well come up with new scripts, you know, can take an extra week, a hiatus and change. So we had to basically change course and make an adjustment. So just because they think, what if they changed their minds? They love something when they saw it and then they start to panic that they think it should be this, and they the next day have a completely different idea. But it, it's just, that's the idea they woke up with.Michael Jamin:Or often it's whatever was a hit over the weekend, that's what they want and make it more like that.Stephen Engel:Exactly. Exactly. So that has ramifications and real life ramifications that you've then got to make work. And it's your job, unfortunately sometimes is to try to turn a cat into a monkey. It's just like, all right, that's what I'm going to have to try to do.Michael Jamin:And are you able to do this with a good attitude?Stephen Engel:I to, I think I have probably, I have a better attitude about it now. I'm just more mature and it's like, all right, it is what it is. I understand it. Back then, I think I took everything much more personally and I was agonized more about it. Now I'm just like, I come, it's coming and you just have to deal with it or not deal with it or whatever. I, I've walked away from it. I've walked away from a deal on a show where I was like, I didn't feel right about it.Michael Jamin:What do you mean you didn't feel right about it?Stephen Engel:I just didn't, I don't know, I just wasn't comfortable ultimately with the people I was going to be working with. As I got to know them better, the deal wasn't the greatest deal and I was like, I don't think this is worth it. I think this is going to be a nightmare. And I just said, I turned wouldn't, they didn't come up. I just said, you know what, no mean, at the time I was running a different show, so this was development behind it, so I didn't need the job, but I was like, I see the writing on the wall here and if I can't, you can't meet my numbers and this is going to be unpleasant. And I can already tell. AndMichael Jamin:How do you think they took it when you did that? No one likes to hear thatStephen Engel:They were really not happy. I mean, yeah, really. I said, look, I'm just not comfortable with it. And I just, things had changed. It was an idea that it's not worth going into. It was easier to just say, forget, don't rather not do it than go into what I know is going to be a shit stormMichael Jamin:Right now. Not enough money. The industry has changed so much even in the past maybe 10 years or so. But I dunno, what are your thoughts on it? What are your thoughts on where it's going? Look,Stephen Engel:I'm one of those people who, whatever, everyone who's not in the industry says, oh, must be so great now, all these different streaming networks and some to sell shows. I'm like, it's not great. First of all, these places are, you know, do all the same work and you're doing six episodes or eight episodes or 10 episodes, and that's exactly when the curve starts to get, there's a very steep curve getting a show off the ground. And then it's like, now I get the show and now it's sort of the, it's heavy lifting at the beginning and then it sort of tapers off and it's always heavy lifting, but you start to figure it out. And then for the back nine it's like, it's not as hard if you stay on top of it and you get stories broken on time. So you're doing all of the heavy lifting without any of the economies of scale and you're only getting paid by the episode and you're working 40 weeks to do seven episodes or eight episodes instead of 40 weeks to do 22 episodes.Michael Jamin:Okay. So in, cause they make, that's not the case on many of the shows we're doing. Maybe they're lower budget, they just usually bring you on thete, the writing staff in pre-production. And so then you're the showStephen Engel:Runners. But as a showrunner, you've got to do, you're there for whatever the eight saying you're doing eight episodes, you're going to do eight weeks of pre-production and writing. You're going to do eight weeks or more of production, then you're going to do eight to 10 weeks of post. And yeah, you're working 35 weeks to do those eight episodes. Whereas if you're working on a network show for 22 episodes, you work 40 weeks and you do, you get 22 fees. So the writers who come in and do their six or 12 weeks get paid for their eight episodes and not, that said they work there eight weeks and they do their 12, their eight episodes. Do youMichael Jamin:Feel this affects the quality of writers that you're able to hire now because they have less training?Stephen Engel:I think so. They're not around production. They don't understand or understand production as well. It, it's tricky. I also think that to some extent, I may be alone in this. I think that some of the storytelling and streaming, it feels like a lot of shows feel like they, someone took a movie and they probably didn't sell this movie, and they said, I got an idea for a series and it would be a great movie. But what they end up doing is they, it's those chest spreaders if you were to have a heart bypass or something, it's like they put a chest spreader into the screenplay and they open it up and they jam six episodes of filler in the middle. And the beginning is the first half of a good movie. And the last two episodes, this is the second half of a pretty good movie, and the middle is just treading water. And you're just like, yeah, each episode becomes a chapter in a book. So a lot of writers are not learning how to tell an episode that has a beginning, middle, and end because it's all middle.Michael Jamin:Right?Stephen Engel:Episode one is a beginning, episode eight is the ending, and everything in the middle is middle. No. Those episodes don't have a beginning, middle, and end. They're picking up from the middle and ending somewhere else in the middle. They're moving the ball down the field. But you don't have a kickoff and you don't, I think a lot of writers maybe don't know how to tell a complete story anymore because there aren't any freestanding episodes.Michael Jamin:How do you think these new writers are breaking in today? It's very different than when we were breaking in. How are they getting in?Stephen Engel:I teach a course at UCLA and I always, they always ask the same question. How do you get an agent? How do you break in? I guess it's not that different other than the fact that there are maybe fewer barriers to entry. You want to write a web series and shoot it on your phone and send it out to a million people on. Now the trick is it's getting people to see it, but no one was going to read your screenplay. If you're a new writer and you say, Hey, will you read my script and you're in my class? They're like, Hey, can I send you a new script I just wrote? I'm like, no. Yeah, I'm not going to read that. But if they send me, Hey, I wrote a one minute episode, you want to, would you watch it? I'm like, okay. I mean, I could watch a one minute episode of something.Right? And if it's interesting, then you could go, that's really kind of interesting. Let's talk about it. So there are ways to get in. I hired a writer on an farm I was writing with a guy named Dan Sinner. Sinner, great guy, funny writer. And we were looking for an assistant. So we met this woman and she came in and she had no experience as an assistant, but she had just graduated from Harvard six months earlier. But she mentioned she had a Twitter feed and that she had written a couple of jokes that somehow Maude Aow had found. And she was like 12. And she tweeted it, retweeted it, and then because Judd Aow followed her and saw the jokes, he started following her and retweeted it. And then a lot of his followers were started following her. So all of a sudden I had 10,000 followers.So anyway, we finished interviewing her. I really liked her. And I'm like, what's the feed? What's the Twitter feed? She told me And I went and I read it and there were, I read the first 10 jokes. Eight of them were a plus jokes. And I said to Dan, I'm like, let's hire her as our assistant. If we need jokes, we, she's really good at joke writing and we're still looking for a last staff writer. And she was our assistant for a day. I'm like, do you have a spec? You've written? Like, I wrote a 30 Rock. So I read it and it was green, but first five pages, five great jokes. So finally Dan and I were like, let's hire her today because in three years we're going to be looking for her to hire us because she was that talented.Michael Jamin:Have had three years passed.Stephen Engel:She very quickly became very successful and has over a million Twitter, Twitter dollars.Michael Jamin:But is she working as a writer?Stephen Engel:She ended up working on Silicon Valley and Oh wow. Parks and Rec and she ended up working on The Simpsons. And soMichael Jamin:You were right. The good place.Stephen Engel:Yeah. I mean she was really talent. It was undeniable. So I always tell writers, write Jo, if you could write jokes, you'll work to, you're 90. To the extent shows like to have jokes anymore, which a lot of them don't. Right. I always think about that joke. I dunno if you remember this from the Emmys, maybe like four or five, six years ago, Michael Chay and Colin Jost hosted the Emmys. And I always tell this to my class, Colin, Joe says that the opening monologue, he says, tonight we give awards for the best comedies and dramas in television. And for those of you who don't know, a drama, a comedy is a drama that's 30 minutes long.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Stephen Engel:There's just so many shows now that are not really that funnyMichael Jamin:That I ain't going for it. What is this club, what's the class called that you're teaching at U ucla?Stephen Engel:It's in the professional program through the school of the Film School write writing a half hour pilot.Michael Jamin:So a graduate. So they have a grad, graduateStephen Engel:Program. It's not a M ffa and it's not undergrad. It's like a professional program where you can apply, it's a one year program. You take three quarters, 10 weeks each, and you go from basically Idea to finish script in 10 weeks.Michael Jamin:And it's at, you say, so it's not used to extension, it's something else.Stephen Engel:No, it's not Extension. It's a, it's through the School of Television, film and theater. Wow. That's theater, film and television, I guess it's called. Yeah. So eight to 10 people. And you're kind of, wow. I kind of act as the showrunner, but I want to hear, get everybody's input. Everyone gets input from each other about their ideas. So it's like a writing class group.Michael Jamin:They'd be lucky to get in your class. For sure.Stephen Engel:Yeah. I tend to give them a lot of, I think, very thorough notes and hopefully it's helpful. And I don't mince words. I mean, I'm gentle with it. I'll always, I'll do my notes and then I'll go back and soften them. I'll be like, instead of this, I don't think this is working. I would say, I wonder if some readers might think this is a bit confusing as opposed to, this is confusing. Or I remember confusing.Michael Jamin:I remember. And just shouldn't be turning to you. I can't remember. It was a script. Levi 10 was running the show, and I think we had a problem with the scene. And I seem to remember you helping us. You pulled you aside, Hey, how do you think this scene should work? Because we were lost and you were very helpful.Stephen Engel:Well, I had at that point already run Dreman for several years and and had some showing experience. And look, Ste, Steve was a great showrunner and one of his, he's smart enough and secure enough to know that I will benefit by having other experienced showrunners on working with me and other very experienced writers. Cause I may not have the answer all the time.Michael Jamin:Oh, I also remember thinking that I don't want to bother the boss. I'll bother someone who's not the boss.Stephen Engel:Yeah. But again, was you were your first job and you're want to make sure you don't do any. I've worked on shows where staff writers are told, don't even say a word.Michael Jamin:Oh, really?Stephen Engel:More or less. It's just you're there to generate jokes on your own and just keep quiet. Which is to me is if I can get a joke from a pa, I'll take it. I don't care where the joke comes from. If it helps make the script better. If a PA comes in and delivers a pizza and goes, what'd be funny? I'm like, that is funny. Right. I'll put that in.Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah. You whatever gets you home earlier. Yeah. Yeah.Stephen Engel:And makes the script better. And hopefully makes the script better. It's all going to make you look better as a showrunner.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was. And you're right, dude. I mean that show that it was really top heavy, just shoot me. It's top heavy. And it was, that's probably what was so intimidating to me was everyone was so funny. And I remember even turning to Marsh after several weeks. It was like, Marsha, I, I'm laughing too much. I'm not pitching enough. I'm enjoying myself too much. Right. What do I do? Because I'm not here to observe.Stephen Engel:I can see how it would be intimidating. I was lucky enough that on my first job it was Kauffman and Crane were the showrunners. Greenstone and Strass were like the producer, co-producer, exec producer, kind of supervising producer level. And then we had three staff writers who were all pretty new. So it felt democratic. But you come into a Topheavy show and you're, you were the only staff writers. Yeah. There.Michael Jamin:And there's Tom Martin. There's Tom Martin. Oh,Stephen Engel:Tom. Right

Steve Baldikoski is an Emmy nominated Showrunner known for Fuller House. He's also worked on Last Man Standing, Glenn Martin D.D.S., Wilfred, and Kristie. Join Michael Jamin and Steve Baldikoski for a conversation about how Steve broke in and what it takes to make it in HollywoodShow NotesSteve Baldikoski on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0049747/Steve Baldikoski on Twitter - https://twitter.com/finchbot2000Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptSteve Baldikoski:I mean, you're, you are sort of clued in to, to what your boss likes. Mm-Hmm. , you also have your own tastes. You, you kind of know what the project is supposed to be. I, I, yeah, I don't know. There, there's no formal executive school on how to give notes. That's why it's kind, it's kind of a weird job because there's no training for it. I don't really necessarily know what makes you good or not good.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another great guest today. This is my old buddy, Steve Bobowski. Steve has written on some of the, some of your favorite shows, as long as your show's favorite shows are ,Steve Baldikoski:As long as they're, as long as you have Terrible Taste and only watch shows that are gone after 13 episodes, andMichael Jamin:Then, then these are your favorite shows. But I'm gonna start, I'm gonna, in no particular order of, of, I think I'm going in order Teenager Working. Remember that show Dag with David Allen Greer Baby Bob. Oh, we're gonna talk about Baby Bob. Okay. Yeah. A U s A. Andy Richter controls the universe. People like that show a lot. I, I'm with her or I'm with her. I'm with her. I'm with her.Steve Baldikoski:I'm withMichael Jamin:Her. I'm with her . Eight. Eight Simple Rules. The New Adventures of Old Christine. That was a good show. The Jake Effect. Big Shots. True. Jackson, I forgot you worked that out. Wilfred. Which you could thank me for Glenn Martin d s, which you could thank me for Kirsty, which I can thank you for. Last Man Standing, whatever, .Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. They don't have anyone to thank for that.Michael Jamin:Thank for that.Steve Baldikoski:Save Me.Michael Jamin:Jennifer Falls, Ned and Stacy. And then of course, you were the executive producer and showrunner of Fuller House, the Full House remake. Steve, welcome to the big show,Steve Baldikoski:. Thank, thank you for having me. It's very exciting to be here.Michael Jamin:Wasn't it exciting, man? Oh man. Oh, and I have to say, so yeah, so we started out my partner and I hired Steve and his partner Brian, on, on Glenn Martin dds. And we were always very grateful. These guys turned in great drafts and we were always extremely grateful. Yeah, thank you. And then we would just shovel more work as, as for gratitude, we would just shovel more scripts in your face. Write this one now,Steve Baldikoski:, that was one of the highlights of my career. That was some of the best times I've ever had.Michael Jamin:We had some, you know, it's funny, I asked Andy Gordon in in a, in a previous episode, I said, and I'll ask you the same question. If you had, if you could go back in time and either remake any of the shows you did worked on, or like rebooted or just work on it again, what, what would they be? Any,Steve Baldikoski:I thought you were gonna tell me. Andy's answer . AndyMichael Jamin:Said if you want, Andy said, just shoot me. And true. JacksonSteve Baldikoski:Uhhuh . I, I, Glen Martin was a highlight, and and I think it was an underappreciated show,Michael Jamin:Certainly was. AndSteve Baldikoski:If, if it weren't in Claymation, maybe someone would've watched it.Michael Jamin:You know, we went on the internet, Seabert and I, my partner and I, we went on the internet and we found some guy talking about Glen Martin. And it was as if he was in the writer's room. It was as if he was, because he, he was right on the money . Like he knew what was good about it, what was bad about it. He had theories as to why ,Steve Baldikoski:I think you, you talking about Alex Berger, the creator,Michael Jamin:, it wasn't Alex. It was something like, it was something like Whacko on the internet, but boy, he was dead on. He was like, he knew exactly what he was talking about.Steve Baldikoski:. Well, one, one weird thing that that happened to me, this is slightly related. When, when Brian, my old writing partner and I took over for house in the last couple of seasons, it was right before the final season, and it was after Lori Locklin had her collegeIssues, legal issues with varsity Blues. On April Fool's Day, there was this article in some Likee News or something where someone did a whole, it was a fake interview with me, but it seemed like it was real. And the reasonings that they were talking about getting rid of Lori's character and what would happen after, you know, she was divorced from Uncle Jesse on Fuller House. W it was so well thought out that it, I thought it had to be written by also someone in the room, Uhhuh, because they actually knew like, specific arguments that specific writers had in getting rid of this person. And then it turns out, only if you clicked the very bottom did it say April Fools. And it was all phony interview with me,Michael Jamin:But still they got it. Right. But itSteve Baldikoski:Was, it, it was so eerie that it was, it was probably probably had better reasons to include her or not include her than we did. So there are a lot of fans out there who understand the shows just as well as the writers Do.Michael Jamin:I, I think so. I, I think even on, people talk about King of the Hill and they remember episodes. I'm like, I don't remember that one. And then they look it up and go, I, I worked on it. I don't tell me what happened. It's like, I don't remember it. You know, it's from, you know, very important to some of these people. And you know, they, they, they watch it all the time. And I haven't watched it in 20 years. ButSteve Baldikoski:But did you, there was a moment where when on Wilfrid where David Zuckerman, the creator didn't even know that he had a logic fallacy in the first episode. Do you know the story? No. I think he was at Comic-Con and he, he was, he, it it was about the pilot of Wilfred where Wilfred is trying to get through the fence and a regular dog would crawl through the fence, but instead Wilfred has an ax.Michael Jamin:Right. AndSteve Baldikoski:And then they said, well, shouldn't I take the ax from Wilf Fred because it's dangerous? And then David said, wisely said, no, you can't grab the ax cuz that means the ax is real. And the second he said that someone in the audience held their hand up and said, well, what about the Bong? Yeah,Michael Jamin:What about the Bong? Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:And David had never considered that.Michael Jamin:Well,Steve Baldikoski:But Jar, that was fascinating that, that he, they had never thought of it on set, but out there. Got him instantlyMichael Jamin:Etro gave a headache to write and remember, like, what, who, and then, and then your part of Brian's likeSteve Baldikoski:That, that anecdote gave me a headache to mention.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was, I remember he just like, don't you think people just wanna see the dog danceSteve Baldikoski:?Michael Jamin:See the dog dance? That was his pitch. . Oh man. Oh my God, what a show. But did you ever,Steve Baldikoski:This whole section is even inside Wilf Fred.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is inside Wilfred.Steve Baldikoski:I don't think anyone would appreciate that. But did youMichael Jamin:Ever, even when you were running Fuller house, did you, did you ever turn to the, what do the fans want? Did you turn to the, because there's a lot of pressureSteve Baldikoski:On that actually, I have to say. That was a huge part of Fuller House and it was one of the things I think that the audience loved. And it was a unique situation for me because I had, still, to this day, I've seen two and a half episodes of the original full House.Michael Jamin:Uhhuh .Steve Baldikoski:So I didn't know anything about Full House, but other people did. And so if we would want to throw in, we call them Easter eggs, right? Throw in little Easter eggs and bring back, you know, some character that was in an, in a single episode 30 years ago, we would bring those actors back and the audience would go bananas. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But how, how can, you didn't watch any old episodes or, you know, there's so much,Steve Baldikoski:Why, why didn't I, orMichael Jamin:Yeah, why didn't you?Steve Baldikoski:Well part of it is I, I didn't want to actually be beholden to any of the other of the old stories.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:Because I mean, even, you know, like Fuller House is a little bit of an old fashioned show, but we didn't wanna make it just like completely stuck in the past and, and a show that is only about, that's referencing the original show. And that was more helpful to just have a perspective of like, what's it like raising, you know, three kids in, you know, modern day California.Michael Jamin:But did you feel a, a strong, I guess, obligation to make sure the fans were happy? Cuz I'm show the writers are writing for themselves.Steve Baldikoski:Oh, oh, for sure. We were doing that constantly and you know, we, we knew it. There were certain things that were like, you know, throwing red meat to the audience.Michael Jamin:Oh.Steve Baldikoski:You know, kind of like, like, like if you're doing the show Fuller House, no. You know, no matter what the story you're doing is, or whatever, if you have to, you bring in a dog wearing sunglasses and the audience goes bananas. And then how do you talk? And a, a baby runs in wearing the same sunglasses.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm.Steve Baldikoski: and then just the, the audience like tears of joy in the audienceMichael Jamin:Because that's, that, that was an old staple in the original show, stuff like that.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. I mean, that's just the kind of thing that they would stoop to, you know, . And so, no, but it was, but it was this, it was this, the Four House is a show that like, you know, it really, it really affected me as a writer cuz it was really that time when every week there were 200 fans in the audience. Super fans who knew every single episode of Full House and Fuller House. And so you would get this amazing instant recognition from the audience that you're writing for them.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:Especially when you would have those little Easter eggs and you don't get that on a lot of shows.Michael Jamin:Right. YouSteve Baldikoski:Know, like I, you know, may maybe on your Just Shoot Me you would have just shoot me fans, but every seat every week was a super fan.Michael Jamin:No. The weird thing about Just Shoot Me, you know, cause we was, we were there the first four years and the, the first season, probably the first two seasons that the audience, they weren't fans, they were hostages. There was people who came from Free Pizza, , you can tell they wouldn't wanna be there. . And they know the showSteve Baldikoski:Prisoners,Michael Jamin:Prison Prisoners,Steve Baldikoski:You're sailors in for Fleet Week.Michael Jamin:It's basically that. I mean, people listening, it's like you show up on Hollywood Boulevard and they hand out tickets, Hey, who wants to see a taping of the show? And then anyone would show up and they would stay warm, cause anybody to get outta the rain. ButSteve Baldikoski:These, no, these were people who came from not just around the country, but from literally around the world to see the show. Yeah. And they would th these people would center their vacation on coming to the show. And, and so, you know, I I mean I, it was also amazing to be able to, like, after the show, you know, if you knew who the people were you would bring them down and, and they would just get a kick out of walking around the set. Mm-Hmm. . And that was another kind of highlight every week was, you know, having these people, you know, have this awesome experience that they've grown up with these characters in this set. And then they're running around on the set, you know, now that they're grown up and they've got kids who, who like the shows.Michael Jamin:Now this set was a repeat that wasn't,Steve Baldikoski:That was kind of amazing cuz you would, it it wasn't just, it wasn't just fans, it was two generations of fans. Right. You know, it was like people who are sort of our age and then they're kids. Right. And, and so, you know, when network people talk about family co-viewing, it really was that it was, you know, parents who still love the show,Michael Jamin:But it wasn't the set was a remake. Right. It wasn't the actually,Steve Baldikoski:It, it was a remake. But I'll I'll tell you, and this is also part of the weird experience coming onto the show, cuz neither, you know, I had no appreciation really for a full house at the time. So before the first show, and this was the entire first season before it aired on Netflix there was a curtain covering the set. And before they would announce the actors, they would, they would lift the curtain like it, like it was like at the theater. Right. And the first time for the shooting the pilot, when they revealed that to the audience, people burst into tears.Michael Jamin:Wow.Steve Baldikoski:Just seeing the set and the couch looking just like it did in the eighties. And the way they really, really mimicked the original set, you know, to the Inch cuz they had the original plans. It was amazing to see people moved by a set.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I bet. ISteve Baldikoski:Bet. And yeah. And so, so that was pretty unusual. And then any line would get, even a mediocre line would get an aureus laugh from the audience cuz they were all, they've been waiting for 25 years to see this moment.Michael Jamin:Now, I imagine you had some of the writers in the show who grew up with watching the original Fall House, who knew more about the show than, than you did? Who?Steve Baldikoski:Oh, oh yeah. Yeah. For sure. And that's why also I felt I didn't need to see the show that much. I'm not recommending people shouldn't do homework .Michael Jamin:Now, one of the things that shocked me when we, when we were working with you, this is long, many years ago, and maybe it was only a season one or something. You shocked me when you said that you, at one point you were, you started as a network executive. I was like, you what? WhatSteve Baldikoski:Well, yeah, Stu, a studio, executiveMichael Jamin:Studio. SoSteve Baldikoski:Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was I was like a director of comedy development at Universal.Michael Jamin:And so tell tell us what, what that means. WhatSteve Baldikoski:Do, should I go back further? Could goMichael Jamin:Back to where you wanna startSteve Baldikoski:To that point. I mean, I never, I never set out to be a writer. I don't even know if you know any of my origin story about this stuff. Oh. I never really set out to be a writer. I always loved TV, but I also love music in, in movies. But didn't even know I was gonna get into the entertainment business until I was trying to blow a year or two before I would get a little bit of work experience and then back to go to law school. You were gonna law school get an mba and I was never gonna be a part of the entertainment industry, but I just lucked into what turned out to be a great job in the mail room at United Talent Agency, uta. And it was like this moment that U t A was on the rise and I, yeah, I was in the mail room where I'm literally working 80 hours a week delivering mail and reading scripts for free and writing coverage, doing that for five months. Then I got on a desk, I worked for Nancy Jones and Jay Surs.Michael Jamin:Oh boy.Steve Baldikoski:I was their first assistants at United Talent, I believe. And then and then I knew it wasn't for me cuz it was really cutthroat. Yes. I, I was learning what I didn't want to do. And working a traditional office that led to I got a job in development. I worked at Aaron Spelling Productions, and then that job got me wait, howMichael Jamin:Did you get a job in development? Cause it's, it is hard to make the transition from being an assistant at a desk to having a non-a job anywhere.Steve Baldikoski:Oh, oh. I, I was still an assistant for Oh, okay. Years. I was an assistant for spelling for one year. Mm-Hmm. , then I was an assistant. I worked for Jamie Tarsus at b c. Right. And that's, and that was kind of the, the, the pivotal moment in my career. Cuz kind of anyone who was Jamie Tarsus assistant moved on to become the next executive. Right. And so that kind of became my path. I was, I, I never set out to do this, but I just kept at getting a job that was just better than the last one. Mm-Hmm. . So I never had the reason to go back to law school. Right. And it was just like they kept on dragging me back in with a slightly better job. So this one year I spent as Jamie's assistant at N B C Frazier had been bought, but not shot.And then Jamie bought friends that year. I can't remember the names of the other shows, but but like, you know, being on set at the pilot of Friends was really that pivotal moment for me where I thought, oh, th this is, you know, really what I wanna do. Like, and I was on the path to be an executive, but I really would look over and the writers seemed to be having a lot more fun. And that's where I, I didn't really even know it, but that was, that was my path to be to being a writer was just kind of hanging out at N B C and, and seeing how things, you know, being a part of. But evenMichael Jamin:When you were an executive development exec, were you thinking, I want to be a writer? Or were you thinking No, no,Steve Baldikoski:Not really. I, I knew like, the executive path was like, was fine and I did that. And on the executive path, when you're no longer an assistant, you get bumped up and you get the office and it was very kind of, there were a lot of fancy trappings. I would wear a suit and I'd drive around all the networks trying to sell co half hour comedies to the networks. And it was it was a good job. But there was just something I still kept on looking at, you know, the writers who were on the floor and thought they were having more fun.Michael Jamin:But Do you, and you were giving notes to writers Yes. As executive. Do you at any point feel like, I don't really, how might, who might I be giving notes to a writer when theySteve Baldikoski:Oh, I, I, I felt that all the time. And because I felt that, cuz I kind of had so much respect for what the writers did. Yeah. That it was, it was hard for me to give as many notes. Cuz I thought the writer probably already had thought these things throughMichael Jamin:Uhhuh .Steve Baldikoski:But where were youMichael Jamin:Getting your notes from then?Steve Baldikoski:What's that?Michael Jamin:Where were you getting your notes from? Where were you getting your opinions from?Steve Baldikoski:Well, I, I have opinions just like, IMichael Jamin:Wouldn't have, I wouldn't have when I was starting it out, I go, I don't know. That's fine to me.Steve Baldikoski:I mean, you're, you're sort of clued in to, to what your boss likes. Mm-Hmm. , you also have your own tastes. You, you kind of know what the project is supposed to be. I, yeah, I don't know. There, there's no formal executive school on how to give notes. That's why it's kind, it's kind of a weird job because there's no training for it. I don't really necessarily know what makes you good or not good.Michael Jamin:And some, a lot of it is just opinion. But I I sometimes you'll get the same notes and which are fair, which is a, you know, start the story journal, whatever. That's a great note that you're always, this is totally valid note. But sometimes I, you know, I've been in meetings and you're like, you get a note, you're like, but that's just your opinion. This doesn't make it better or worse.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. And, and I mean, obviously, you know, that's something you, you will struggle with till the end of time. Yeah. But, but I also always go back to, you know, I, I think there's a, there's a cartoon about this at, at some point, but, but like, if Shakespeare handed an Hamlet, his agent would give him notes. Yeah. And he would say, Hamlet is inactive. Yeah. And then you would make him Mae swashbuckling hero.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Yes.Steve Baldikoski:And that would ruin Hamlet. So, so like, you know, and, and the problem is that like, the, that agent's note would be a well, well-guided note.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Hamlet, that isSteve Baldikoski:A mm-hmm. is a valid thing for him to say, but it also ruins the inherent art of the piece. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You know? Yeah. Had a kick. ButSteve Baldikoski:Then not that writing Glen Martin was the equivalent of ShakespeareMichael Jamin:In many ways. But it wasSteve Baldikoski:Pretty close.Michael Jamin:It was a little higherSteve Baldikoski:. But ,Michael Jamin:We had some fun on that show. But and then when, when you wanted to make the transition, I don't know how, how, how do you do, how did you do that?Steve Baldikoski:So, so, and once, like, and this is just my case, it was shockingly not that hard. My who became my writing partner was one of my best friends in college. And Brian had always wanted to be a sitcom writer. And just kind of had, kind of flamed out a couple of times. And then he was living in San Francisco and having a really excellent career as a, as an advertising copywriter. And I called him up and I told him I wanted to write sitcom with him. And he said no. And then he say he changed his mind.Michael Jamin:Why did he say no?Steve Baldikoski:Cuz I said, fine, I'm, if you don't write it with me, I'm gonna write it with Sue Ale .Michael Jamin:Oh,Steve Baldikoski:Funny. That's a true story. She wasn't,Michael Jamin:Sue wasn't an Sue Nagle who later went on to run H B O and then and Ana and you know, she, she's big, but she, at the time she was, she was, sheSteve Baldikoski:Was not yet an agent or she was a very young one. And we, butMichael Jamin:She didn't wanna write,Steve Baldikoski:Did she? So then we got together and to go to a coffee place to brainstorm. And we got into a, we didn't even make it to the coffee place before we got into a huge argumentMichael Jamin:Over what?Steve Baldikoski:Oh, I don't, I don't rememberMichael Jamin:. This partnership's not going well,Steve Baldikoski:. No, he was, he was not. But, but if you can't make it to the place where you're supposed to think , then it's probably a doom partnership. So anyway, Brian said yes. Mm-Hmm. . And then so over the phone we wrote a spec news radio back when people still did that. Yep. And News Radio had just been on the air. So we wanted to write a show that we loved and also that there weren't a ton of samples of other specs like that. Right. So we, this news radio early on and I gave it to Sue Nagle, she liked it. She gave it to Michael Whitehorn at Ned and Stacy. And we had one meeting Brian flew in from San Francisco. I showed up in my suit from being in an executive. I had to sneak out from Universal and not tell him where I was going. DidMichael Jamin:Michael White hard know you were an executive at the time? Yes, he did. HeSteve Baldikoski:Didn't think, but, but, but that was actually kind of a good thing because Brian was an ad executive. Mm-Hmm. and Ned of Ned and Stacy Right. Was an ad executive. And then also cuz I had, you know, funny corporate stories I think Michael liked that as well. And the fact he gets two people for a staff writer's salary.Michael Jamin:Were you afraid to leave your cushy job?Steve Baldikoski:Less so than Brian. I, if, if I flamed out, I could always go back to being an executive and, you know, that would be fine. Right. And, and in hindsight, that probably would've been the best thing that happened, everyone.Michael Jamin:But Yeah. I mean, itSteve Baldikoski:Wouldn't be here talking to you. I, I, I'd be living in Bermuda by now, .Michael Jamin:Oh, well, you know, learn.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. So, but unfortunately I made it through that year and then made it through the next like 25 years. And so, so that was my, that was my path. And, and it kind of happened really fast that I, so then Michael hired us after that meeting, and then I had to go tell my boss at Universal that not only was I looking for a job, but I had one and it was as a writer.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:And then, and so their business affairs made this big stink that they owned my half of my spec script.Michael Jamin:And what, what are they planning on doing with it?Steve Baldikoski:I, well, that, well, I, I asked them that and I think they were all gonna take my spot in the writer's room.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What you're, they have they own ha you're half of a worthless SPAC script that just got you a job. I don't know,Steve Baldikoski:Value it. It was a weird thing. But they,Michael Jamin:But businessSteve Baldikoski:Affairs won't hesitate toMichael Jamin:Sink a deal whenever possible. . Yes. We remove the joy out of a writer . We have a three hour phone call toSteve Baldikoski:Figure this out. And they, yes, they effectively did steal my joy of that moment,Michael Jamin:. Oh my God. And then, yeah. Then the rest was just one show after another, basically. AndSteve Baldikoski:Then, yeah. And yeah, it started out we got in, at the time there used to be the WB in, in U p n, the Paramount Network. I think like in that, in that time period, this is like 97, 98, there was like the peak of the sitcom. I think there were over 60 half hour sitcoms on the air. And then Brian and I rode that rollercoaster.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.So tell me about developing your last project.Steve Baldikoski:Okay, so the, the last project that I just developed I sold it to a ABC with 20th. Mm-Hmm. came to me because it was so personal to what I'm going through as a dad. Mm-Hmm. , my youngest kid is non-binary.Michael Jamin:Okay.Steve Baldikoski:And she she was born a girl, Vivian. And then around time, she was about the second grade, she came to us and said that she, she felt that she was a boy. Right. And so that led us down on this journey. You know, finding out, you know, like having a trans kid and non-binary kid and never knowing anything about it. Right. and that kind of led me to want to write about it after I broke up with my writing partner right at the start of Covid. And I was gonna have to write my first thing. So I was gonna write at first I was actually gonna develop step by step BA based on the same concept. I was unable to sell that to H B O Max mm-hmm. . so instead I redeveloped the idea of me being this like hapless dad sort of middle class working class guy in rural Wisconsin, which is where my mom's family is from.And then having this tomboy kid that he just loves more than anything. Hi. Her, his Maisie all of a sudden informs him that no her name is, she's now Hunter. And you're thinking this as a single camera comedy or what? This was a single camera comedy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was structured like a multicam, but, but really that was from, anyway, that was my speck. And what that led me to, to, to, to do is it got me the attention of other people who were in the non-binary trans world. So then ultimately I partnered just through meeting lots of people this woman named Billy Lee, who some people know because Billy Lee was on early seasons of Vander Pump Rules. Okay. and so it was kind of a, like a well-known person in, in the trans community.And then, so Billy Lee and her friend Priscilla had this idea about her own life, which is kind of almost too hard to believe is true. Billy Lee grew up in rural Indiana as a boy. Left home in 18, found out that he wasn't gay, he was actually a, she Right. And went through the surgeries and then, you know, a a lot of turmoil, but then returns back home and fell in love with her best male friend from junior high. And now they're together as an on and off couple. And so it was, how, how do I take that and turn that into a half hour comedy? I know it's a long wind up, but it's a great story that is almost hard to believe. Yeah. AndMichael Jamin:Was her best friend growing up.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. And so we pitched it really as a Netflix H b o Showtime show that would, would show that magic relationship and also have sex and, you know, things that I think would be hard, you know, relatively hard for a, you know, a regular network audience.Michael Jamin:And it's sold,Steve Baldikoski:But it sold to a b ABC because they wanted, there's this great, her relationship with her father is also really what it's about. Right. And it's, it, it is a fa is also a family show about how it took a trans woman to fix this broken Midwestern family.Michael Jamin:Right. AndSteve Baldikoski:Right in ABC's wheelhouse, youMichael Jamin:Know, where where is that now? At likeSteve Baldikoski:A, like a Connor's but with a strong trans element.Michael Jamin:And where is that right now?Steve Baldikoski:It's dead. Oh,Michael Jamin:Steve Baldikoski:Michael Jamin:With every other pilot.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. yeah. I, I, you know, I can't, I I can't entirely blame them. Like, it, it would be very amazing to see a, b, c put on a show about a trans woman and not have it be one of the peripheral characters.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:I, I, I think that's just a hard sell. Maybe if I was, you know, a more powerful writer, could, could you, you know, jam that down their throat? But I, I don't think, I think the subject matter was exactly their wheelhouse, but also maybe too, too on the bleeding edge for them.Michael Jamin:It, it feels a little like, you know, some somebody somewhere at that H B O show. I love that show. No. Oh yeah. It's a little sim it's it, and there's not trans, but it's, it's similar that, I don't know, that just remind me of It's great. It's a great show. Our friend Rob Cohen directs a bunch of those. Oh yeah.Steve Baldikoski:Oh, I'll have to check that out.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Great show. But, so then, okay, so then what, what else? Like, you, I mean, it's been a while since, you know, since Fuller House, but what was that like? I always ask this, what's it like working with the cuz a lot has changed since you and I broke in. Yes. What is it working on with like the, the new generation of writers?Steve Baldikoski:Well luckily at Four House I was still the new generation of writers . What wasn't thatMichael Jamin:Mean, wasn't that long ago.Steve Baldikoski:I, I still felt young on the show Uhhuh. Cause Cause we had people No, we, we had people who were older and Oh right. And you know, were around the early, theMichael Jamin:Original show.Steve Baldikoski:And so, so it was kind of great to feel like I was on the young side for once. Yeah. but I, I understand what you're, I understand what you're, what you're getting to are like in terms of how the room has changed from started to now, evenMichael Jamin:In terms of preparation because, you know, you can answer any way you want. But it, like, basically there was more when we were coming up, you were on a show for longer. There were more senior writers and you were constantly learning and you were never, I never, you were never like thrown into the hot wa hot water yet. But now I feel like these kids come in and there's no really training ground. There's no, there's even, you know, I think there's an article a couple days ago, there's no mentorship anymore becauseSteve Baldikoski:No, no, no, no, no. There, there isn't. And you know, that's too sad. I think that, I think content in general is as good as it's ever been. Mm-Hmm. . And yet that training system doesn't seem to exist. And I wish it did. When, when we first got in around the Ned and Stacy era, like there still was that you would still feel that like a showrunner would take someone mm-hmm. Under his wing, like Michael Whitehorn did with David Lit. Yep. And Shepherd that person cuz they would have multiple years of Ned and Stacy. And then luckily that turned into King of Queens. Mm-Hmm. and, and you know, soMichael Jamin:There were schools.Steve Baldikoski:Mike were together for a long time. That's the old model. I don't see that anymore. I wish it was there. Because to to be honest with you, like when Brian and I made the jump from co-executive producers of Fuller House to executive producers, it, it was like, we are being thrown to the wolves after 25 years. Yes. Because because of jumping from show to show, to show like younger writers do now all the time. I, I didn't learn those skills mm-hmm. . And so we didn't really know that much about editing, you know, sweetening like it, how's our camera coverage. Right. you know, all all of those little things that, you know, I had to, I had to learn them very, very quickly. And so luckily I had a, a great, you know, you know, crew that all wanted to help us as, you know, learn as well. But yeah, there is no system. I wish there wasMichael Jamin:Like, I even think like multi-camera, like you, back in the day, you'd come out of a school like we basically . We, we kind of came out of the Frazier school cause Levitan came outta Frazier, which came outta the cheer school. And it was like that kind of pedigree that you had and you're just learning from all those people. And then now, like, there's so few multi cams. Like if they were to bring back multi cams, well who's gonna do it? Who knows how to do it? Because it's different than doing a single camera.Steve Baldikoski:It's funny, it's funny you say that because that's why I'm calling onto the business. Yeah. that I'm hoping, I'm hoping that that we can stick around long enough that it will come back at some point. UhhuhMichael Jamin:. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:I, I love the format. Like, I mean that's, that's one of the things that like really me about Fuller House is you know, I was able to be there for like five years mm-hmm. . and I never really had to worry about, you know, job security and it, it was this amazing place and we, and there were fans of the show and, and it was just great to write for them. And so that spoiled me, you know, now that that kind of is, you know, has gone away now that Fuller house is no longer on the air. Friday night was my drug, you know, cuz you know, Friday night I love putting on a show every week and I miss that.Michael Jamin:Here's my pitch Fullest house. Pay me. That's,Steve Baldikoski:That's, that's a great idea. That's a great, I wonder, I wonder if anyone pitched that to me, before the day I started.Michael Jamin:I wonder if anybody pitched that to me. Your shitty joke. .Steve Baldikoski:So was it one of my low IQ children?Michael Jamin:. Well then, so then what do you do? So what do you do now? I mean you're obviously you're developing and, andSteve Baldikoski:So, so now I I'm, I'm working on a, a, a new multi-camera idea. I'm very excited aboutMichael Jamin:And Gone Steve Baldikoski:Haven'tMichael Jamin:Taken it out yet.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. no, I'm just, I I I, I think I finally ha I have the pilot story. I'm just trying to populate it with all the other, all the other things.Michael Jamin:Okay. And then, and thenSteve Baldikoski:With all the other characters cuz I basically started with the central character, Uhhuh . It is kind of high concept, but I don't wanna give it away. I I'll talk to you off camera about it. Okay. with the central character and then that led to a bigger world. Then populate that world kind of how to, how I want to, how I wanna fit tonally into that world. Like it's, it's, it's an idea that would, to me, it feels a little in the vein of what we do in the shadows.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:In terms of like a high concept comedy idea. And because I never worked for him, but like, my hero as a sitcom writer is Paul Sims.Michael Jamin:Okay.Steve Baldikoski:And it, you know, my first spec was Ned and Stacy. I mean, I, I was news Radio. Radio. Yeah. And which was run by Paul Sims, created by Paul Sims. And now he runs mm-hmm. . you know, what we do in the Shadows, which I just think is a brilliant, brilliant show.Michael Jamin:So then what do you have, what advice do you have for people? Do you have any advice for people trying to get into the business now? Well,Steve Baldikoski: that's why I'm here. I thought I was seeking advice from you. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You thought you were a, a job.Steve Baldikoski:I thought people were gonna, I thought people were gonna call in and tell me what to do with my life.Michael Jamin:Yeah, exactly.Steve Baldikoski:I, I mean the, the number one thing is like, if you want to be a writer, I think you probably have to move to LA maybe New York. But if you want to be in TV comedy, I think you have to be in LA Yeah. That's the first thing you have to do is move here and then write all, you can write things that make you laugh. Right. That abuse you, because no one else will probably enjoy it. So you might as well, you might as well . And, and also, and also I think you, you, you have to get creative, you know I think social media is a great way to get noticed.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. ,Steve Baldikoski:My wife happens to be an executive on the TV side, and she bought the Twitter feed shit, my dad says when she wasMichael Jamin:Wild. And that was gotta be 10 years ago now.Steve Baldikoski:And Yes. And I, and I think that was like the first thing that a network executive or that a network has like, bought something on, like no one was buying a Twitter feed at the time. Right. And, and I thought that was pretty clever that Wendy started looking at things like that. And I, I think that's a great place to get noticed. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I agree.Steve Baldikoski:Especially for young comedy writers. Does sheMichael Jamin:Still do that? Does she still actively, does she look on social media for other people like that?Steve Baldikoski:She does that. She also she flips through, they get they get proposals of books that are coming out. Not even books that have been written, but just titles of book proposals sometimes.Michael Jamin:Really. AndSteve Baldikoski:She has scanned through that and bought a series based on one of the blurbs that she read aboutMichael Jamin:That I'veSteve Baldikoski:Never heard that. That was, that that was actually the show Atory.Michael Jamin:I Okay. Cuz that's a good title. ISteve Baldikoski:Never heard thatMichael Jamin:Before. So I would, I would, I've always, cause my advice to given people is, well, it's gotta be a bestselling book, but you're sayingSteve Baldikoski:Oh, oh, oh. I'm not, oh, I'm not suggesting that's a way to get noticed,Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:To, to write a book. Although it's not a bad idea. If you have a great life story, write a book or put it on TikTok.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:I think, I think just if you have a comic voice, there are a million ways to get it out there. Yeah. and my dear friend, a guy named David Arnold was a writer on Filler House and just started showing, you know, doing TikTok videos of, of him and his wife and kids. And then he, like, I think Ellen DeGeneres was the first to share one of his videos, and then that blew up for him. And then he ended up, he was getting sponsored and he was a, he was a standup comic and it was helping out with his standup business. Yeah. And so at the age of, you know, 53, he was discovered on new media, you know, andMichael Jamin:And what would hasSteve Baldikoski:Become little tiny sketches about his family.Michael Jamin:Oh, I, let's talk about Kirsty, which was you, you were, to me, that was a lot of fun. So that was a Kirsty Alley show. Yeah. And you guys brought us in. They needed a a freelance. I don't know why they, but they wanted to have somebody freelance even though you got a, a great writing staff. Oh,Steve Baldikoski:.Michael Jamin:And I like, we're like, we'll do it. And thenSteve Baldikoski:I think, I think our, I think I think your agent said that your teeth were falling out and if you didn't write a script for the medical Oh,Michael Jamin:Not at all. Honestly,Steve Baldikoski:That show,Michael Jamin:Because that was a bunch of heavy hitters on that show. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. We were only sat, we only sat in for a couple days. We walked you guys, we walked in and then you guys said, okay, here's the story. We, we broke it, kind of go write it. We're like, okay. And but it was a, itSteve Baldikoski:Was to start Ted Damson. Sson.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And, and then, and Marco punted it for se the next season thinking it was gonna be a season two Marco, there's no season two . You don't punt that. You shoot it today before, before they pull the plug. Steve Baldikoski:The old, we will use this we'll use scripts season two. Yeah.Michael Jamin:The old season twoSteve Baldikoski:Trick. I don't know if that was him being tricked or you being tricked.Michael Jamin:Honestly, we had a great time. It wasSteve Baldikoski:A great script. It was a greatMichael Jamin:Script. It was fun. It was just fun sitting in with a bunch of people. Yeah, well, a bunch of writers that I respected. SoSteve Baldikoski:No, that was an amazing, that was an amazing experience. I, I, we like Claris Leachman did the show. Mm-Hmm. like some really, you know we, we wrote an episode for John Travolta. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And was it Michael Richards and Ria Pearlman. And it was like, these are good, these are heavy hitters, these are great actors. So, andSteve Baldikoski:The, the night that Claris Leachman did the show, we went out for drinks afterwards, Uhhuh with her. And I ended up sitting next to Kirsty Allie's assistant. And it wasn't until about 10 minutes into my conversation when she mentioned reincarnation, that I realized that I was talking to a high level Scientologist. And then I, and then I noticed she was doing all these Scientology tricks with me, like deep deeply staring into my eyes and not blinking until I blink. It was, it was, it was very bizarre.Michael Jamin:Wow. I I think we can,Steve Baldikoski:That's, that, that's, that's a good enough reason to become a sitcom writer is Yeah. To have someone do Scientology mind tricks on you. ThoseMichael Jamin:Are, that those are all these, those are always good stories when you Yeah. Can you go hang out on the past? Hang out. Yeah. And then what aboutSteve Baldikoski:When, when Clarus Leachman is far from the craziest person at the table? .Michael Jamin:She was, she was pretty wild. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:Michael Jamin:Did I ever work? I'm trying to remember if I ever worked with her on something. I think I did, but I can't remember what it was.Steve Baldikoski:Gotta be. Just, just shoot me.Michael Jamin:It might have been. I don't remember. I, I, you know, but Okay. Well let's get to baby, let's get to the, what everyone wants to talk about Baby Bob.Steve Baldikoski:Oh,Michael Jamin:, let's go. YouSteve Baldikoski:Saved the best for last.Michael Jamin:I saved the best for last. Let's talk about baby. Well,Steve Baldikoski:I, I believe that Baby Bob was the highest rated show that I've ever been on,Michael Jamin:But they canceled it so fast.Steve Baldikoski:They canceled it. Yes. I think that was a, that was a disconnect where the high, high ups meaning like Les Moon vest when he was running CBSs, I think he wanted Baby Bob to be on the air. Oh. And so that he developed it like two or three times with multiple casts.Michael Jamin:Right. We gotta have a talking baby.Steve Baldikoski:And it was, and, but the, but the Talking baby always stayed the same based on these commercials. Was it Geico? Yes. I think his Geico commercials with the baby Ba with Baby Bob interviewing Shaq Yeah. Is, it's the concept that got everyone all hot and bothered. And so, so Les Moonves bought the show. This is my version of the story, I'm sure it's only partially accurate. But he didn't really include the lower level executives who absolutely hated the show. And so, as Brian and I got hired on the show, we thought, Hey, it's a c b s show. They must like the show. But the reaction from the executives after every table read was basically, how dare you,Michael Jamin:How dare how dare you have the baby talk? How dare you. WhatSteve Baldikoski:Like, just everything about the show seemed to offend the, the c bs executives incivility who were in charge of the show.Michael Jamin:Were, were there anything advertised guys in it? Were they involved at all?Steve Baldikoski:No, not, I don't think so. Kenny Kenny Campbell is the voice and mouth of the baby. Uhhuh . And then actually I didn't know much about babies when I was on the show, but then now when I look back, I realize how creepy it is that a baby has a full set of adult teeth. Yeah. Yeah. That are prominent. If I saw a baby like that in real life, I would run.Michael Jamin:Do you think that was the problem with the show? Steve Baldikoski:, this is the baby's teeth? Well, well the Mike Saltzman, my dear friend who Yeah. Saltman created the show, described it as Frazier, and they happened to have a talking baby.Michael Jamin:The other, so the other Oh, Freeman was Frazier had, okay. Frazier. All right.Steve Baldikoski:And they just happened to have a talking baby. IMichael Jamin:SaltmanSteve Baldikoski:That was, that was Mike'sMichael Jamin:And what, what were the writers do? Did, yeah.Steve Baldikoski:I don't have a lot of memories. . Okay.Michael Jamin:SoSteve Baldikoski:There were a lot of late nights and one night, I think it was about midnight, that I got into a shouting match with one of the other writers about whether or not Baby Bob was a genius.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:And the other writer was taking the stance of he's not a genius, he's only talking at six months. Mozart was writing symphonies at, at five or seven, and I was shouting and I was yelling about the other side that Mozart was not talking at sick at six months.Michael Jamin:And was everyone looking at you both outta your mind? ?Steve Baldikoski:Yes. Like, it's midnight. Can I go home?Michael Jamin:Can I go home? How get the baby to dance? That's all.Steve Baldikoski:But, but, but, but, but I mean, part of the lesson there is even a show that you think is so, so simple or terrible that you could write it in it, in its in your sleep. Uhhuh . It's not that way. No. No. Because even a show like that is very hard to write. Yes.Michael Jamin:Yes. BecauseSteve Baldikoski:You have so many layers of people to Please,Michael Jamin:Yes. People ask me is they say is a, is a, is a great show. Hard to write than a bad show. No, they're all, they're all kind of hard to write for different reasons. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:And that, that was, I mean, definitely a lesson. And then another lesson was despite what we felt like, I like it, it is sort of embarrassing to be on a show like Baby Bob when you're on the Paramount lot and then the Frazier Golf Cart drives by and you're in the same business, but you're not in the same business. But when it came to the ratings, baby Bob did huge in the ratings. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like one of the top, I think it's one of the top new comedies that year.Michael Jamin:And that's so interesting. And, and that's, that's the thing people don't realize as well, is that you, you may be a great writer, but if you're in this lane, it's hard to get out of that lane cuz that's how people see you. Yes. And if you're in a great, even if you're even a bad writer on a great show, now you're in that lane. You're in a great ri you're, you know, you, you're inflated. So Yeah. Yeah. yeah. People don't quite realize that.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:And you take, you gotta take the job, you gotta get you, but you take the job you get, you know, so Yeah. And,Steve Baldikoski:And, and you really, and you really don't know if it's gonna pan out.Michael Jamin:No.Steve Baldikoski:Like I remember talking to Al Jane and Mike Reese mm-hmm. when we worked with them and asking them when they got started, they started on the, started on The Simpsons I think coming off of Gary Shaline show and when they were pitched coming on to do this cartoon on Fox.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:They thought, I think that they thought it was, it was not good for their career.Michael Jamin:It would kill their career. Yeah. And, and now it would make no difference, honestly. Now you what? You take a job, you know, whatever job you can get, you take a job, you know? Yeah. But back then you could make decisions. You could make choices.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. Yeah. I, yeah. And, and interestingly, like back when Brian and I were making lists of shows, we would wanna be on Uhhuh, Simpsons was like a C-level list at the time.Michael Jamin:Uhhuh Really? CauseSteve Baldikoski:We liked it, but we thought it was imminently. We, we didn't, no one still knew it was gonna be on the airMichael Jamin:40 years later.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. And you know, cuz cuz being on The Simpsons, I think it was like uncool. Then it became cool, then it was uncool.Michael Jamin:Well, in a way it's a little bit of, it's almost golden handcuffs if you're on the Cho. That that's if you're on the Simpsons now, you you're not gonna leave. Yeah. Cause it's job security and get ready to, for writing Bart jokes for the rest of your career, you know. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:But the crazy thing is that there are writers who are still there, who were there when I was in the mail room at United Town. Sure.Michael Jamin:Yeah. SoSteve Baldikoski:Th there are peopleMichael Jamin:Who, they've made a career at it who,Steve Baldikoski:Yes. So I was in the, I was on the business side of the business. I became an executive and then I was a writer for 25 years. Yeah. And they're still doing the job from the day I got into the business.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. It's just so, yeah. It's, and I would think creatively it's hard, but you know, you, but the money will make, will make you feel better. You know,Steve Baldikoski:Money makes a lot of things feel better.Michael Jamin:You crying for your 50? Is there a 50 bill? . I wouldn't know what a 50 bill looks like. Fascinating. Dude, thank you so much. We have a good chat. We had a good time.Steve Baldikoski:Steve. Thanks for having me.Michael Jamin:Thank you so much. This is, I, I don't know, I'm always fascinating in, in learning people's journeys and how they got there and so thank you so much for, for being on my little show.Steve Baldikoski:Thank you. And hopefully you have stuff that you don't have to cut.Michael Jamin:Oh, , sorry folks. If you heard the version that, the edited version, we had a trash, a lot of stuff. ,Steve Baldikoski:.Michael Jamin:All right everyone, thank you so much. Remember, we offer, we got a lot of great stuff for you on my website. You can get on my newsletter, you get my free all that stuff. Go to michaeljamin.com and find out what we got there. And I got another webinar coming up. All right everyone, thanks so much. Until next, next week, keep writing.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode where screenwriters need to hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Andy Gordon has had a Rich career in Hollywood. His credits include Modern Family, The Big Bang Theory, Last Man Standing, Just Shoot Me, & News Radio.Show NotesAndy Gordon on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0329985/Andy Gordon on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_GordonAndy Gordon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andyonset/Andy Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andy-gordon-830028b5The History of WGA Writers' Strikes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writers_Guild_of_America_strikeWGA.org Strike Authorization Approved at 97.85% - https://www.wgacontract2023.org/updates/strike-authorization-vote-resultsMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsComing Soon

On today's episode, we sit down with educator, researcher, and all-around information guru Simon Peyton Jones to learn all about programming languages and their impact on hardware, software, and research/development. Simon also brings some professional insight into Excel as a programing language. Oddly enough, around the time Rob met Simon, Rob began to think of Excel as a programming language. In order to be a language, the formulas have to deal with both space and time, so Excel formula language absolutely fits the bill. Just be careful how you code. On older systems, if you perform a VLOOKUP at the same time as a nested IF, it might disrupt the space-time continuum and bring about the blue screen of death! As an engineering fellow at Epic Games, a researcher for Microsoft Research Cambridge, and a professor at Glasgow University, Simon also brings a unique perspective on changing the educational system to include base learning on computer science as part of general education. Not only did Simon step up and suggest change, but he also followed through and created a coalition to guide the program and ensure future expansion as needed. When Simon talks about research, people listen! As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help others find the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast Also in this episode: Simon Peyton Jones's bookmarks! Alonzo Church – Lambda Calculus Touring machine Automata Theory LAMBDA: The Ultimate Excel worksheet function. (Andy Gordon, Simon Peyton Jones) LISP functional language Microsoft Research – Cambridge Arthur Norman – functional programming John Backus Turing Award Setting up for Success w/David McKinnis Declarative Programing Immutability Changes Everything Computing at School – CAS Scratch - Computer Programming Logo - Apple Estimating the value of Pi using Monte Carlo Code.org Tesla One-Way Valve Turing Tumble Robo Rally Board Game Unreal Engine Joe Duffy on Transactional Memory Haskell Language

This week, we have our first Podcast guest, Writer/Director Rob Cohen. Rob has written and directed for shows like The Simpsons, Wonder Years, The Ben Stiller Show, MAD TV, SNL, Just Shoot Me, Maron, Big Bang Theory & Black-ish. Join Michael Jamin and Rob Cohen as they discuss their careers, breaking in, and what it means to have a long, fruitful career in Hollywood.Show NotesMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistRob Cohen on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0169712/Transcripts are Auto-GeneratedRob Cohen:Just shoot Me was in the nineties. And if you said NBC in the nineties had so many comedies, some were good, and some were terrible. But now, if you look at NBC, are they doing any comedies? Like maybe two?Michael Jamin:Yeah, maybe. Yeah.Rob Cohen:Yeah. So, so it's the same place, but it's the, the tide is clear. So for somebody to aspire to working on wacky old-timey NBC comedies, it's very foolish. However, if they are a self starter and, and determine what their roadmap is, nobody will stop them. You can't guarantee success, but at least you've tried it and you might be successful trying it and pursue what you like.Michael Jamin:Right. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam. Hey everybody, welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. My name is Michael Jamin and Phil is not here with us today, but I have a special guest. This is our first time ever having a guest on, on our podcast. And I'm absolutely thrilled that it's, you know, in Hollywood. People say this is my good friend, My, but it's true. Rob, you're my good friend and thank you.Rob Cohen:You're my goodMichael Jamin:Friend. Yeah. . And so it's nice to actually have a good friend kick off my guest on the show. So let me introduce you. This is Rob Cohen, Writer, Director, and I'm gonna scroll through some of your credits so people know who you are. And and I'm sorry, I'm, I'm only gonna do some of the highlights that I think I'm gonna leave out. Probably the someone's I, because you had, Rob has a huge resume and you're a writer and a director, but you started andRob Cohen:Some of it is good.Michael Jamin:And for, for those of you wanna make a, a visualization. Rob also worked on one of your early jobs was The Simpsons and the character of Millhouse was Rob modeled after him. So Rob is picture Millhouse now older and sadder. So, and also Rob's Canadian. So I wanna talk about how a Canadian breaks into the business. Sure. The whole language barrier, how you learned English. Right. I wanna learn how weRob Cohen:Figured out Yeah. How the machines work so we could Yeah.Michael Jamin:I know you drove a dog sled growing up and now, now you drive a car. So stuff like that. Thank you.Rob Cohen:Thank YouMichael Jamin:Thank you. So let's begin. Rob's, I guess your first staff job, I guess was the Naked Truth, your big one?Rob Cohen:No, my very first staff job full time was the Ben Stiller show.Michael Jamin:Oh, right. Will you go back even further than that? Bend Stiller. Right. And you also did Mad tv. Hold on. Your credits are crazy good. Like you have a huge list of credits. Naked Truth work with me, I met you on, well I think I knew you before that, but just shoot me work. You work together, right? Bet, bet. Midler show. Yes. According to Jim. Mm-Hmm. , according to your credits, you are on, According to Jim. Right. the Jamie Kennedy experiment. Was that a show or an experiment? Rob?Rob Cohen:That was an experiment. That became a show on the wv.Michael Jamin:See Dots? I don't know what that is. It'sRob Cohen:A amazing, That was a pilot for nbc. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Oh, Pilot. How did you get that in there? Father of the Pride? You remember that, that animated show American Dad? I've heard of that one. Yep. Big Bang Theory. Heard of that one. Mm-Hmm. , 20 Good Years. Mm-Hmm. , our friend Marsh McCall created that show. Mm-Hmm. Emily's reasons why not. Mm-Hmm. fascinating.Rob Cohen:You're really combing through all theMichael Jamin:I'm on IMDB.Rob Cohen:Yeah, of course.Michael Jamin:There's more Life In Times of Tim, which was a riot that, that animated show Maron, which we brought you back. We hired you to be a writer and director on that. We're gonna talk about that. Yeah, sure. Lady Dynamite with our friend Pam Brady. Mm-Hmm. I don't know companies. I don't, I don't know. So I'm skipping over the, But you also have your own show called Hanging with Dr. Z. We're gonna talk about that. And then, But directing credits are also crazy. I mean, really I'm all them. Well, well you're, you're, you're good looking. Thanks. Let's go over some of them. Sure. Obviously you did a, you did a bunch of Marons. Yeah. Mystery Science Theater, 3000. You did some Lady Dynamites. Yeah. You did Blackish. Mm-Hmm. Stand Against Evil, Speechless. Bless this Mess. Superstore, you directed mm-hmm. The Goldbergs, you directed. Mm-Hmm. Interesting. told that Mo You are, And then most recently, somebody somewhere, which I, I talk about that a lot cause I love the pilot of that. And I just love that show. You directed five episodes of thatRob Cohen:Damn right. Seven,Michael Jamin:Seven. We have to update your IMDB. Yeah,Rob Cohen:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Let's start at the beginning. Cuz a lot of people ask me this and I have no answer. How does a Canadian start work in this country? Like, there are lawsRob Cohen:There are laws and I mean, I know that Americans are all about purity. So I will say that Canadians, they're almost like Americans. It's almost like we live next door to you guys,Michael Jamin:South or north of us.Rob Cohen:I, I don't know, , I don't know. But I didn't have any aspirations to get into showbiz or even come to the United States. So I didn't know that it was a, it was all a fluke. The whole thing was a fluke. I can certainly condense the journey.Michael Jamin:Let's hear it.Rob Cohen:The fast version is I was a bit of a scam as a young man and was encouraged to live on my own at a young age. And so I lived on my own and I was just a complete screw up. And I grew up in Calgary and had no future whatsoever.Michael Jamin:You were encouraged to live on your own at what age?Rob Cohen:15.Michael Jamin:Why? You were, you were a handful for your parents.Rob Cohen:I was a handful because my dad had gotten remarried and the mix was not the greatest mix. So there were two opinions on how things should work in that situation. I was of one opinion andMichael Jamin:TheRob Cohen:Back was of another.Michael Jamin:But looking back on it, do you realize, Do, are you, do you feel like you were wrong as a 15 year old? Or do you like No, I was right.Rob Cohen:You were right. I was absolutely right. Interesting. Absolutely. Right. and so I just, You,Michael Jamin:You were on your own at 15, Dude, I, I couldn't imagine.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I had an apartment. I, I mean, it's not like I suddenly got, was living on my own and figured everything out. I was still a disaster. I just had my own apartment and I was so stupid that for the first month I was like, Oh, this is awesome. My party pad. And I had all my buddies over and we were just doing stupid things. And then I got the, basically realized I had to pay rent and gas and electric. And I was like, Oh my God. Like, I actually have to pay these bills to live here. And I was delivering pizzas at night, and that was certainly,Michael Jamin:You're gonna school during the day and delivering pizza.Rob Cohen:Yeah, I delivered pizzas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was a comp, I was a disaster. I had a 75 Dodge Dart that I would deliver pizzas in whatever the weather was and would like steal gasoline from car lots. So I could put gas in my car to deliver pizzas. I was a complete idiot.Michael Jamin:Have you tried pitching this as a show?Rob Cohen:No. it's just, it's so, it's, it's interesting in hindsight, but it's also, you know, you could call it, you know, like it's like Don portrait of a team runaway. It's like Rob portrait of a complete disaster because every choice I made was wrong. That'sMichael Jamin:Mind's a good show.Rob Cohen:. Well, maybe at some point, but I think I sold a pilot once about my parents' weird divorce and how they lived a block away from each other, but had the same address through it, some flute. But anyways, I was just drifting around for a while, just doing nothing. And sort of speeding up to your question. My cousin lived here in LA in the Valley, and I, because I was doing nothing in Calgary and had, I was not gonna college, I did not have enough credits or interest to go to university. And just got my car one day and left my apartment in Calgary and just threw a bunch of stuff in the car and drove down here to LA to visit my cousin who lived in Vaneyes. And again, like speeding through the boring stuff. I was just gonna visit for a couple days and crash on his couch.Rob Cohen:And I met this girl that he was going to school with, and we, she and I hit it off and I'm like, I'll stay another week mm-hmm. and then I'll stay another week. And then I sort of had this, if you want to use the word epiphany incorrectly realized like, I could go back to Calgary and do nothing, or I could stay here and do nothing with this girl. So I decided to like stick around for an you know, excuse me, undetermined amount of time. And then realized I'm kind of living here. But I was, I lived here illegally for many years.Michael Jamin:And you were like 17.Rob Cohen:Yeah.Michael Jamin:How old were you? And you were living here illegally?Rob Cohen:Yes. For many years. Interesting.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And, but you were working, How did you work then?Rob Cohen:I worked under the table. I got a bunch of jobs. I think the statute of limitations is over, but I worked at different restaurants and Right. The, I was a security guard at a mall. I sold shoes, I fixed yogurt machines.Michael Jamin:You know, I worked at a yogurt store. I wonder if you fixed Humphrey yogurt.Rob Cohen:You fix, did you fix them? I worked at a place called I can't believe it's Yogurt. And then they opened up a second store that said, Yes, it's yogurt . So they basically, they opened up a store that answered a question nobody was asking. No. Was asking . Yeah. And I still remember how to, you know, you unscrew those four bolts and you pull out the assembly and you take the O-rings off and you clean them and then you lu the O-rings and then you put the thing back in. But it was all the reality was because I looked and mostly sounded like an American people never asked. And this was pre nine 11 and pre all that stuff. And they just thought I was American. And no, not one person asked me for any validating id. Wow. And I, I made up a fake social security number and got hired and they, a lot of 'em just paid me cash under the table.Michael Jamin:This is perfect. Yeah. Now, and then at some point, well, but maybe I'll skip. So how did you, how did this whole Hollywood thing happen? When did you decide, how did that, when did you decide you wanted to be a, I guess, a writer? Right.Rob Cohen:Well, I never decided it. I, I, it's such a boring story and I may actually do it as a pilot, but cutting to the chase, I was delivering food for a, a deli that is no longer in business in LA Right. And had a lot of clientele that were in show business. And this one guy took a liking to me and basically said, you know, if you ever wanna get outta the exciting world of late night sandwich delivery, gimme a call. We need PAs. And I didn't know what a PA was. And he explained what it was. So I, I, this is how dope I was. I was like, Yeah, sure. So I'll, I called him up and went over to the Fox lot and he explained what a PA was Uhhuh and I thought it paid more than working at thisMichael Jamin:Deli. And he, he was a producer. What wasRob Cohen:He? Producer? for, I mean, he's still a producer, but producer of The Simpsons, Tracy Elman show. Oh, okay. This, he's an amazing guy named Richards guy who I, I literally owe everything to. And he hired me because I was nice to him when I would deliver food as a PA on the Trace Elman Show. And that was the very first time I was exposed to anything in show business whatsoever. And I was assigned to the writer's room, so I was in charge of getting them food and cleaning up. And And that's a queen. Yeah. And it was an amazing writer's room. And that was it. That was the first exposure to it.Michael Jamin:And then when did you decide you wanna start? When did you start writing?Rob Cohen:I didn't start writing. I was there for the last two seasons of the Tracy Elman Show. And then on the last season I didn't even, I still don't really know how to type. I started hunt and peck, but I would stay late at night. And they were, it was a great writer's room and they were really nice to me. And I just thought these guys seemed to be having fun. And one night they were stuck on a joke and that meant they were sticking around, which meant I had to stick around because I had to clean up after them. And I just decided like, I'm gonna write down a couple options for this joke. And sort of meekly slipped it to one of the writers, this guy Mark Flanigan, who was an incredible, and I'm like, you know, I don't mean to step on eight toes, but I just, I wanna go home.Rob Cohen:Ideas. Yeah. And that was literally, I wanna go home. And he, they used one of the jokes. And so I got to go home . And then I was like, Okay, well I'll try this again. So I, I started to very quietly with months in between side sort of pitch ideas. And then I went in at night after work and Red Scripts and sort of taught myself how a script is visually structured. Right. And then on the computer would type fake scripts just to physically format a script. And then, because it was a sketch show, I had this idea for a sketch and I just typed it up and it took like a month for me to type up a six page sketch cuz I was terrified. Right. And they ended up buying it and Wow. It was like $1,600. And I got an agent at caa, but I was still a pa at the Tracy Elman show. Right. And, and then I thought, again, showing my lack of planning for my life it was like, this writing things seems kind of fun, like maybe I'll try it. And that was, that was when I had the first inkling that perhaps that was something I may want to try to pursue. But there was no guarantee of success.Michael Jamin:And then you just continued writing specs scripts and your agents started submitting you places.Rob Cohen:I wrote a bunch of spec stuff and then by that point to Tracy Mond show was canceled and they switched. It was the same production company as The Simpsons, which was just starting. So they switched everybody over to The Simpsons. And then because everybody there was so great when The Simpsons took off, you know, it just was huge outta the gate. They had all these weird assignments that they needed help with. Like can you come up with 50 grant calls for Bart? Can you come up with a promo for this? Do the Bartman video that's gonna be on mtv. And I'm actually looking, the, my very first check sort of professional check over on the wall was for writing the intro that Bart Simpson was gonna say on MTV for the Do the Bartman video that had Michael Jackson on it. Right.Rob Cohen:So I got $300 and then just started sort of you know, writing weird things. And the, the first actual job that I got was I was recommended by one of the writers to these producers named Smith Heian. Mm-Hmm. And they were doing a 50th anniversary Bugs Bunny special for CBS. And they needed a writer that knew a lot of stuff about Bugs Bunny. So I had a meeting with them, they hired me for $2,600 to write this whole special, And that was like my first professionally produced credit of something that was, I, I was involved in from the beginning to the end. Right. But I'm still a paMichael Jamin:And none of this see, people ask me like, Well, do I have to move to Hollywood to work in Hollywood? AndRob Cohen:Like, Right.Michael Jamin:I mean, this wouldn't happen if you were not in Hollywood.Rob Cohen:Oh yeah. And it was, everybody says this, but it was absolutely a different time. And I also think that because it was the late eighties, early nineties and things were, there were way more jobs. And also because sketch shows were so popular, they needed people needed little bits. And also being around The Simpsons from the beginning, it was great like that. The Do the Bartman thing I sweated over that for a week and it was probably four sentences. Right. and I would write like top 10 lists for Letterman and try to send them in like naively thinking here's, here's 20 top 10 lists, Maybe you guys will like them. And I was just, I would stay there late at night in the office on the Fox up by myself with, you know, feral cats giving birth under the trailer just writing weird stuff and kind of figuring out the job as I was doing it.Michael Jamin:And then how did you get the Ben Stiller Jo Show?Rob Cohen:This has gotta be also boring.Michael Jamin:I think it's fascinating.Rob Cohen:Well, the way I got the Stiller show was The Simpsons had taken off and I was still working for Gracie. And I had an idea for an episode and it was season two of The Simpsons. And so I went and just wrote this episode on spec on my own. And it was basically a diehard parody cuz Diehard had come out just like a couple years before that about the power plant where Homer works getting taken over and he inadvertently becomes a hero and saves a power plant. Mm-Hmm. . So I wrote this whole spec, I turned it into Sam Simon who was running the show and was just great and he loved it. But what I was told sort of off the record is at that time, Gracie Films had a rule where they could not hire writers that were already working for the company in another capacity.Rob Cohen:It was like this weird archaic rule. So being a Ding Don I was like, Oh yeah, well screw that. I quit. So I walked over to the main bungalow and spoke to Richard Sky and I was like, You know what? I think that rule's terrible and Sam likes my script and I just think I'm gonna try this writing thing. And, and I quit. And they're like, Well, we're sorry to have you go. And then as I was walking back across the parking lot to get my stuff, Sam grabbed me and he is like, I heard you quit. And I said, Yes. And he goes, Well now you don't work here anymore, so now we can hire you, but we can't use your idea because you pitched it to us when you're an employee. And I was like, That's weird. But cutting to the chase.Rob Cohen:They took me upstairs to the writer's room and they had an index card that just says Homer invents a drink and most deals it. And so they said, We would like you, we loved your script and you've been here since the beginning. Like, we'd love you to write an episode. And I was like, Absolutely. I was freaking out. And I said, like a, an arrogant idiot. I was like, But I wanna be involved in the entire process. Cause I knew the process cuz I was working on the show. And they're like, You got it. And so we broke the whole story and it ended up being the episode flaming mosMichael Jamin:Flaming. I know you wrote Flaming Mo. Wow.Rob Cohen:So I wrote Flaming Moose, and then time went by and, and it got produced and it was on the air. And the way that I got the Stiller show was I was doing punch up on this terrible movie for Morgan Creek and met this other writer there named Jeff Khan. And Jeff and I hit it off and he's like, Hey, they're shooting this weird pilot at my apartment, you wanna go check it out? And I was like, Sure. So we went over and it was the pilot for the Ben Stiller show. Mm-Hmm. . And Ben was there and he and I hit it off and he was asking what I'd worked on and I said, this episode that had just come out for The Simpsons called Flaming Mos. And he was like, I love Flaming Moes, you wrote that. So he said, if his pilot ever became a show, he would love to hire me because we, he and I had so many similar references in our life. We love disaster movies and all this other stuff. So we really clicked. And then a couple months later, the show got picked up and he called me and said, I wanna hire you. And that was my first staff job.Michael Jamin:Wow. What itRob Cohen:Entail? What it entail. IMichael Jamin:Not it is, No, I think it's so cool. I I've known you all these years. I didn't even know that dude.Rob Cohen:And then it's all flukes. It's all flukes,Michael Jamin:It's all Yeah. But it's also you putting yourself out there and I don't know. That's amazing.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I mean, I'm very fortunate these flukes happened because, ButMichael Jamin:You also Yeah. I hadn't but you put yourself in a position to have these flu happen too. Yeah. AndRob Cohen:You were put if I hadn't, but I was prepared. But if I hadn't met Jeff that day and we hadn't gone to his apartment, I would not have met Ben and that wouldn't have led to the show. Right. WhichMichael Jamin:Led. But you're also, I mean, honestly, and I mean this in a compliment, like you're one of the be better connected, more most connected writers. I know, you know, a lot of people like, you know, you're friend, you're a friendly guy, you, you know, a lot of people I guess maybe cuz you leave your houseRob Cohen:No, but you're, you're connected, you know, a lot of people, it's just,Michael Jamin:It's just I know, but I'm always, I'm always surprised by who you like you seem to know more people .Rob Cohen:Yeah. But it's only because I just think I hate this term, but I think the alt comedy scene was starting when you and I were starting off in LA Yeah. And because, especially because of the Stiller show, that whole crew were so important. Like Janine and David Cross and all those guys were so important to the alt comedy scene. And then that's where Jack Black and Tenacious D started and all these other people Will Ferrell. Like they were all coming up that way. I just think it was timing of an, an era that was happening. So wereMichael Jamin:Just, Were you involved in that? Like did you do like, what do you mean? Did you go to those shows and stuff? Like IRob Cohen:Oh yeah. The Diamond Club. Yeah. I mean it was, that was the whole scene. Like big intel books, the Diamond Club. IMichael Jamin:Didn't even know about it back then.Rob Cohen:Really? Oh my God. Yeah. That was where everybody hung out. Like I even performed in some of those dopey shows just because it was, it was a group of friends that were not famous yet that we're just doing these weird shows at this place, The Diamond Club in Hollywood, which is gone mm-hmm. . And you could tell it was like, you know, Jack and Kyle, you knew they were amazing, but they were not tenacious to you yet. Right. And, and Will was not Will Fiery yet. He was a guy from you, the Groundlings and people were just, you know, Janine and David and Pat Oswald and all these guys that were justMichael Jamin:Right. So let's talk about those guys. So they were, you know, these are people putting themselves out there. It's not like Absolutely. They're not saying, Hey, I put me in my movie. They're just putting themselves out there. They're doing shows. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's just how you do it. And so is they're not asking to start at the top, they're starting at the bottom.Rob Cohen:Yeah. Well I think that's a great point. And I think using the, the Diamond Club shows, The Diamond Club was this horrible, horrible dumpy club. A club is a loose term that was owned by one of the the Stray Cat was it Stray Cats?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know the band. TheRob Cohen:Band The Stray Cats. Yeah. It was like Slim Jim Phantom, I think was the guy who owned the club. Okay. So it was this horrible, decrepit theater that was near LaBrea and Hollywood and it was kind of a you can do anything you want kind of place because it was just soaked in like old piss smell and booze. But the good thing was a lot of friends of ours, like this friend CJ Arabia, started to put these shows together. And so she would ask everybody in our little group that all hung out and travel together and dated each other and whatever. It's like, hey, we can do these shows at the Diamond Club. And I'm not a performer, but it would be like, we would build entire sets out of corrugated cardboard and paint them because the Diamond Club didn't care. They just wanted to sell alcohol to people that came to the shows . So there would be like, you know, shows where you look now at the lineup, you're like, Holy crap, that's the, that's like a lineup of insane comedy hitters. Right. But at the time they were not, they were just young weirdos.Michael Jamin:It's so, because you know, I moved here in 92, I lived right in West Hollywood. I lived right on the corner and I'm just, it's amazed how like we just didn't know each other then, you know? Yeah,Rob Cohen:Yeah. But you and I actually in Seavert sort of weirdly intersected with the Wonder years unbeknownst to us.Michael Jamin:I well sever wrote on that. I didn't he sold number years.Rob Cohen:No, but you guys, and you're credited on my episode.Michael Jamin:I'm no, I I didn't work in the Wonder Years. Si sold ans sold an episode of Freelance episode of Wonder Years, my partner becauseRob Cohen:Yeah. But it's so weird because on screen, it's you two and me credited on the episode. I pitched to Bob Brush. He tried to ripMichael Jamin:Up. Not me, dude. I don't have any credits on Wonder Years. You gotta, I Oh,Rob Cohen:You know, Seavert and his old partner?Michael Jamin:Yeah, his old partner. Yeah. Yes.Rob Cohen:Sorry. It was Sivert and his previous partner.Michael Jamin:I'm surprised he got credit though. Okay.Rob Cohen:Wow. Wow. The whole thing was Bob Brush was just stealing ideas left and right. But wow. That's interesting. But that's SivertMichael Jamin:And I But you never wanted to I'm well, I'm sorry I cut you off. GoRob Cohen:Ahead. No, no. I was gonna say, I didn't know you were Seavert yet. Right. But on that episode, Seavert and I share credit even though at the time we were complete strangers. And then I really met him when I met you on just shootMichael Jamin:Me. Right, Right. Now, did you, you never wanted to perform, I mean, it's funny cause you have performed but you never wanted to.Rob Cohen:I have performed reluctantly. I hate it. And it was like, whether the Diamond Club show or if I've been like an emergency fill in at the Growlings, it's, before I do it, I'm like, Hey, this is cool. It's gonna like sharpen my brain and it's gonna be a great thing. Just jump off the cliff and try. And then in the middle of it I'm soaked in sweat and hate myself. And then at the end I, I am so relieved it's over and I absolutely loathe it. I wait,Michael Jamin:I'm just shoot me. I remember we had you play the dirty bus. The dirty bus Boy was your character. Dirty Dirty bus, and you hit it outta the park.Rob Cohen:. Well, all I had to do is sort of wiggle my eyes. Lasciviously while it was clear the older waitress and I were messing around.Michael Jamin:Oh my God.Rob Cohen:Cause Andy called me in and said, Can you, He's done that so many times where it's like when he had True Jackson, he's like we need somebody to be the hobo king. Can you be a paramount an hour? I'm like, .Michael Jamin:Okay.Rob Cohen:But it's not. Cuz I love it. I, I hate it, but it's also, it sounds so goofy that if I don't have any lines or something that I'm fine doing it. But I ended up on so many shows I worked on as a writer, being an emergency go to that.Michael Jamin:IRob Cohen:Truly, I truly hate it. IMichael Jamin:Truly hate it. As mentioned, Rob was talking about Andy Gordon, who's a writer we worked with a number of times. Yeah. A great guy and hilarious writer, butRob Cohen:Hilarious and so funny. Like just as a personMichael Jamin:It really witty, really making laugh. Yeah. And you just had dinner with him. Yeah. It's so fa Okay, so then you were okay. Then we worked together and just shoot, We, for many years, we, we used to sit next to each other. Yeah. Sometimes at least. Yeah. And then, and then what happened was years, I remember years later we were doing a pilot. We were helping out a pilot. I don't remember whose Do you, do you remember? We were, I remember I pilot, I don't know, might have been, might have been a CBS Ratford pilot, but, but what happened? So people don't know. So when someone makes a pilot, it's very, at least back in the day, it was very common for the person who created the show to call in their friends as a favor. Hey, can you guys help, you know, sit a couple days and help me, You know? Right. Pitch on jokes or do the rewrite or whatever. And as it's courtesy, you always say yes. I mean, you just never, never say no. And CauseRob Cohen:You also hope, if it's a success, you'll get a job.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But sometimes you have a job so you don't even care. But Sure. But, but absolutely. You always say yes. And I remember being there on the state floor, and I hadn't seen you in a while, and I was like, Rob, what are you up to? And then you said, I was like, so I was thinking you were gonna, you know, you had written on a bunch of shows, but you were like, Yeah, I'm kind of done. I'm done writing, I wanna directRob Cohen:Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:. And so what happened there? What was the, what made you wanna stop writing and start directing?Rob Cohen:I feel like I, I'm gonna continue to take long, boring stories and compress them, but the, the quickest answer is I'm so appreciative of the, the fluke that come into writing. And I, I was a writer on TV shows for 18 years. Right. And I, I greatly appreciate the opportunity that it provided in all areas. But what was happening would be I would be on a show and they would need somebody to go supervise, like a shoot on, like at, you know, the Radford lot. There was that fake New York Park. So they would need somebody to go film a scene that's supposedly Central Park. Right. Also, if they were doing any exterior shoots, I would volunteer to do that. And there's people we know that are writers that hate being around actors and they just wanna stay in the room. . And I was, I was realizing I wanted to get out of the room mm-hmm.Rob Cohen: and go where the action was. And then I would direct some, some friends of mine would do low budget music videos and I would do it for free. And then I was kind of building this weird little real sort of unknowingly. And then other friends of mine that part of those Diamond Club crowds that were now becoming well known comedy performers were doing movies. And they would ask me if I would help write the promos, you know, the commercials for the movies. And foolishly or otherwise, I would be like, Yeah, if you, if you arrange for me to direct these promos, I'll definitely, I'll write it and I'll do it for free. And they're like, Okay. So because they had muscled with the studio, they would be like, Rob's the guy and he's also gonna direct it in the studio's. Like whatever you say.Rob Cohen:Right. So I realized that I was really enjoying it. I'm not saying I'm good at it, but I was really enjoying it. And then building this sort of very weird real. And then when the writer strike happened 2007, 2008 I was walking the picket line and kind of had this feeling in my head, like, if I go back into the room, I'm going to stay on the path of being a TV writer probably for many, many, many years. And this is an opportunity. I was pretty honest with myself. It's like, what I really, really want to do is be directing, like, to make the stuff instead of write the stuff. Right. So, so I decided on the picket line that I would kind of hop off the writing train and just try to keep cobbling together these weird little directing jobs. AndMichael Jamin:That's,Rob Cohen:That was when I made the term.Michael Jamin:But I remember being on the floor with you on this stage and say, I remember this conversation really well. I was like, Wow, you're gonna be a director. And I said, like, So is your, because you know, Rob's a big shot writer. I said, So is your agent helping you out with this?Rob Cohen:Right.Michael Jamin:And what was your answer?Rob Cohen:Not at all. They wouldn't not at allMichael Jamin:Discuss it. And why not didn't discussRob Cohen:It because I was making money for the agency as a writer, and they did not want to go through building me up as a director because they were and it wasn't evil, It was just, those were the facts.Michael Jamin:That's exactly right. And that's, it's not, it's because that's a hard sell. They're not gonna push that rock up the hill. They already have directors and Rob's a no one is, he's said, no one is a director. Correct. And so you, you were literally starting your career over, and the way you did it was by working for free, you know, by just doing it and not asking for permission. You just did it. You know, figure out what you can do. And I say this all the time on my podcast, on my social media, like, and I use this, I use as an example, you know, you did it. And then I, so we were at one point we were running Maron, and that's, and I use you as another example of how to get work there. So I don't remember who contacted who, but we were, Maron was our low budget show, really super low budget show. And I guess, and how did, how did we get, I don't remember. I don't remember details, but we came in contact again.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin, if you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlistRob Cohen:In what I think it was, I emailed you guys to congratulate you on the show and we just started a dialogue. And then you guys very generously asked what I was doing. And I think that's how we loosely started this conversation.Rob Cohen:Right. But it was you Sivert, Mark, who I'd known a bit in the past. And then was it Erco or was it yeah,Michael Jamin:Probably Pi Cerco.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I can't remember. I mean, you guys went way out of your way to let me have a meeting.Michael Jamin:But what's what I, IRob Cohen:Remember is in Glendale.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And what I remember about that meeting was how prepared you were. You came, we met with a lot of directors and we needed directors who were cheap, can do low budget. Who, And you, you had, you were all that I could do low budget cuz you do low budget, you do no budget. Right, Right. And you came in super prepared, and I've talked about this before as well. I, I think on my podcast, we on social media is like, you blew us away. So what you did, as I remember, you watched the presentation, which is already shot, and then you, you blocked it. You, you, you drew diagrams and you said, this is where I would've, this is how I would've shot the presentation. This is where I would've put the cameras. And see, by doing it this way, you have less setups and you don't have to move the cameras much.Michael Jamin:And because you do, because you're being efficient with your setups, you can make your day, you can get all the shots that you need because I'm not getting a ton of coverage. I'm just getting exactly what I need and I'm getting it fast. And the fact that you took all that time to draw those drawings, you, you know, you proved to us, and I remember you walked out and we were like, He's hot. You know, he's the guy, he knows how to do it. Mm-Hmm. , you know, you blew us away. So it wasn't like we did you a favor, you came in, you were prepared. You know,Rob Cohen:We, Yeah. But I really, I mean, again, I remember that meeting so clearly because I was, I, I, I loved you guys. I thought the presentation was awesome and the show had all this great promise, but I loved the vibe of what the show could be and really, really wanted that job for those reasons and to work with you guys again. But also because I knew there was a way, and it was my old writer sort of producer brain thinking like, there's limited time, there's limited money. How can you maximize the writing and the, the humor opportunities, but your production schedule is so crazy tight. How can mathematically you do both things? And that's, I remember leaving that meeting and just like, I, I didn't know what else I could've said, but it was really my experience as a writer and a producer, just like, this is how I would make this more efficient. Not that you guys were inefficient, but it was just how my brain had worked from the writing side.Michael Jamin:And that's, and I, and that's what we appreciated most about you as a director, is that you came from a writer, you were a writer, you understood the writing, you understood how to be true to the script, how to service the script. And I gotta say, it was always very easy working with you was never, you had never had any ego attached. You were like, Hey, is this, how do you like this? Oh, you don't like that? Maybe you like this. It was always, you know, course pleasing the client basically. ButRob Cohen:You guys were not only were you my friends, but you guys were the bosses along with Mark and I I would say just, it's not even from a Canadian standpoint. It's like you are hired to visually capture the script that has been written mm-hmm. . So if somebody's coming in thinking like, here's how I'm gonna put my stamp on it, or this is gonna be for my real, it's a mistake because Right. What I, what I love doing, and you guys were great show runners, was if you got Guy, if there was an idea I had, I would happily run it by you because it made it easier if you liked it. And if you said, Well, we actually thought about it this way when we wrote it, it's like, that's cool. My job is to visually capture it. Yeah. And, and also it's like this scene's running over, so here's a, here's an idea how we can pick up that time.Rob Cohen:Right. Or Mark has an idea. So it's like, okay, let's honor what Mark is saying and Right. That's to me, it's your number one goal is to take the blueprint and build a house. And it was so easy because you guys, we all knew each other, but we all came from a writing background. Yeah. And it was, it was like, well, you know, this B story's never gonna pay off this way, so what if we just save some time and just make this like a joke instead of a B story or whatever was going on. ButMichael Jamin:I remember right. I was always relieved when you, when you were directing, I was like, Oh, this is gonna be a good fun week. It's gonna be easy. It's gonna be yeah, we'll get what we need.Rob Cohen:Oh, I loved it.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Rob Cohen:I love that show.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That was, we had a blast. But it was, yeah, it was low budget. And then, so what do you say to, because it's so many people, you know, they do ask me like, Well, how do I, how do I become a director? Mm-Hmm. . And so how would you tell people, young people just starting out, I would do what you just did, but go, let's hear what you would say. No,Rob Cohen:I, I would say you know, again, to sound like an old man, times have changed mm-hmm. . and I would say that the number one thing is to show somebody that you have directed something and that can be directing it on your phone or making a short film. There's so many ways to do it inexpensively now with technology. There's no excuse. Right. My second answer would be it's to show the people that have written the show or have the script that you can not only be trusted to run the set and get all the scenes and get some options e editorially, but that you also aren't literally just filming the script that you are gonna mind some more humor. Right. Or you have a style that's appropriate and that's established in the first part that I said, which is make your own real.Rob Cohen:You know, like there's a music video I did the total budget out the door before, way before that was $2,000. Like everything. Right. And we were able to, you know, we had three minutes and 25 seconds or whatever it was to do it, but we were able to get some funny stuff within the video and it was for Virgin Records. And the one letter I got back from was like, We love this video because there's so much funny stuff in it. It wasn't about the song, but it's finding a way to sort of add, without putting the spotlight in yourself because the spotlight should be on the script.Michael Jamin:But once you have your reel, like okay, how do you, who do you show it toRob Cohen:You? If I was doing it today? I think you show it to I mean YouTube is a great example of somewhere that for free, you can exhibit your wares mm-hmm. , I would say the going, showing it to an agent is a, is an older route that I think is gonna be more frustrating because you can now start a website of yourself and send it around to people with a click. I think, you know, the great thing about short films is there's so many festivals and a lot of 'em are online that even if you make a three minute short film for a, a very inexpensive amount of money, you could literally have people around the world see it after you're done editing it. And so that's what I would do today is write something, because if you write it, it gives you extra juice.Rob Cohen:Mm-Hmm. . And then you're also not paying a writer. Right. And you, and then the way that you saw it as a writer, writers basically direct stuff in their head when they're writing mm-hmm. . So then take the initiative to film what you saw in your head originally and put down on paper. And then there's so many people that would do favors. Your friend might be an editor and he needs something for his reel. So you make a deal. It's like, if you edit this for me we'll have a finished product, then both of us have something. So I, I would say it's, it's, it's it's hustle, but it's not like that lame thing of you gotta hustle. I think it's an iPhone will make something so beautiful. And with an iPhone and a tripod, your costs are gonna be your phone and a $10 tripod.Michael Jamin:And I, I say the, I Go ahead. Continue. Right.Rob Cohen:Well, no, I just think there's no excuse to not make stuff. Yeah. But you want to, you, you want to use the internet you want to use film festivals that a lot of 'em have free submissions and start a website you're on webpage and people will find it like they, somebody's gonna see it. And as long as you keep adding to it on a fairly regular basis, it's the same as when you and I were starting, you would have to send out a packet and to meet writers for staffing meetings, they would want to either read your spec half hour or your writing packet. So this is the same thing, it's just your directing packet.Michael Jamin:Right, Right. I say this all the time, I think people think I'm nuts, but Yeah. It's just like, stop asking for permission and just do it. Yep.Rob Cohen:Absolutely.Michael Jamin:A Hundred percent. And stop and stop thinking about starting at the top. How do I sell my, how do I direct for Twentieth Century Fox? No. How do I direct for my neighbor? Yeah, That's, that's the question. Yeah.Rob Cohen:But that's what I loved about those music videos. Not to keep referencing 'em, but you're, the, the greatest thing is when the artist said yes, because I was like, Oh, this is great. I'm gonna have a music video in my real, And then you realize like that $2,000 pays for catering, pays for editing, pays for a dp, pays for lighting, pays for location, and you very quickly realize you have no money. But the challenge of that is so great and has so much value, these little jobs that people can take because when you do show it to somebody, they go, You made that whole thing for $2,000. That's ex or damn, or you made this short film for a hundred dollars and you could, I you could, if you have a Mac and an iPhone, you can make a film.Michael Jamin:I said, so funny you say, cuz I said the same exact things. Like the less money you spend, the more impressive it is because you're saying aRob Cohen:Hundred percent,Michael Jamin:You know, and, and by the way, no one's gonna be impressed by the Dolly shot or the special effects you put in because you're not gonna, you know, the Marvel movies are gonna do that a thousand times better than you can ever dream of doing it. Yeah. So it always comes down to the script and Yeah. And, and how little you can spend. That's the impressive part.Rob Cohen:Yeah. And I will say, not to over compliment you, but whenever I have meetings for directing jobs that every, the shows that they bring up almost every time that they're really curious about are Marin mm-hmm. standing against Eva, which is another Iffc show. And somebody Somewhere, which is the Bridget Everett show, which is an incredible group of people that do that, but on a fairly low budget. Yeah. And nobody wants to talk about how you pulled off some amazing big budget production because they know you had a big budget, but if you can show them that you can work lean and mean and you were involved from the ground up it has so much cred with everybody that to this day, like it happened the other day, people were talking about Marin, they did not believe what that schedule was like. Yeah. And when I explained it to 'em, their minds are blown. Yep. They, they can't believe it's possible. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah. FastRob Cohen:And it is possible.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It was like two or two and a half days for a shoot,Rob Cohen:Which is two and a half days for an episode.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And ordinarily, it's like five. Right. Or how do you, have you ever directed an episode that was more than five days?Rob Cohen:I've done one that's six. Okay. but you know, me, the thing that I would say in these meetings is like basically a, a regular work week, you will have completed two episodes where most shows are barely getting one for a way bigger budget. Yeah. But the great thing about the Iffc model was they don't give you notes, they stay outta your way. They're supportive and they appreciate that you're delivering a television show for peanuts. But then everybody benefits because they've agreed to embark on a journey where everybody has skin in the game. And that, that I think also will help people get writing or directing jobs.Michael Jamin:I see. I, I think sever and I, we prefer, you know, we take whatever work we get, but we prefer working low budget for that reason. They leave you alone and you can actually be more creative. But how do you feel when you're like, I would imagine directing a high budget piece would be more stressful and, and and terrifying.Rob Cohen:It is, but because there's more writing on it. But I would say the larger budget stuff that I've directed, and it's not like major movies or anything like that. The, the pace of things is a lot slower mm-hmm. because people have more time and more money. And to me, I love going fast and lean and mean because you still have the amount of money, but why not get five takes at a scene instead of two takes. Right. And, and so if you have more money, it doesn't mean you get lazy, you keep your foot on the gas, but you just get more options. Right. And so I think learning anything, writing or directing anything from the ground up with no resources will make you be more creative and more efficient. And people, when they're hiring you, certainly for directing, appreciate how efficient you are. Because you're basically saying, Give me the keys to the bank and I will take care of your money and you'll have five choices instead of two choices. Right. And that's what it comes down to.Michael Jamin:You say choices, do you mean coverage or do you meanRob Cohen:Coverage?Michael Jamin:CoverageRob Cohen:Takes coverage? You know, Maron, we would rehearse it as we blocked it. You know, like it was, it's not like we had these long, lazy rehearsals. It was like, Okay guys, we have three hours in the living room. Let's,Michael Jamin:Do you have more rehearsals, more rehearsal times on your other shows? Yeah. We had no rehearsal time.Rob Cohen:Yeah, sometimes, but I also think that's built into the larger budget. So if it's a network, single-camera show, people can walk away to their trailers and you call him back when you're ready and then lighting director gets everything perfect. And again, like with Joe Kessler, who is our awesome DP on Marin mm-hmm. , that guy works so well just like running gun, Running gun. Yep. And there's ways to make stuff look great. And also Mark, who's not a trained actor, was delivering some really heavy stuff mm-hmm. and people are finding it as they go. Because I think that team mentality, if you're writing or directing, everybody's on board. They, they've signed up understanding what the job is and once people chip in it's gonna make it a better experience in every area.Michael Jamin:Now you, I'm changing gears here, but you also do a lot of like this Dr. Show. Like you do a lot of, like, you do commercial work, but you also do like bizarre passion projects on the side. Mm-Hmm. , Right? So talk about like that. Like what, what's, what'sRob Cohen:WellMichael Jamin:Hanging with Dr.Rob Cohen:Yeah. It was during the Pandemic and Dana Gold, Pete Aaronson and I are friends and we just, everybody was stuck inside and a lot of work had gone away because of the pandemic. And we just started talking and kind of came up on the fly of the show and realized we could make our own YouTube channel and if we put the money together ourselves, then we're the studio. So nobody's gonna stop us because we're paying for it. Right. So Dana does this incredible Dr. Zs impression and we were like, what if Dr. Zs hosted the Mike Douglas show? But he was sort of like a cheesy Sammy Davis Jr guy, and we would call in favors with friends of ours who would be real guests, shoot them remotely and make 10 episodes. Right. And it was truly a fun project during Covid. And we ended up, you know however you could describe having a small but interested following making season one of Hanging with Dr. Z. And we used the internet and Instagram and, and all that stuff, which led to us having a really successful Kickstarter campaign for season two. And the budget, I wouldn't even use the word shoestring, I would say it was like a photocopy of a shoestring, but I love doing weird, silly stuff. And a lot of it it improvised and it just tapped into all of our favorite ways to do stuff. Right. But it was working with friends, you know, during a pandemic.Michael Jamin:Right, Right. People have friends and you do project with your friends, right?Rob Cohen:Yeah. And we ne we, we have not made one penny on that show. We, we have lost money on it, but willingly because it going, what I said earlier, we could guarantee it would exist because we were creating it and paying for it. So there's nothing stopping us. Why not? Like why not do it?Michael Jamin:People often say to me like, you know, they want, or they want me to read this, they want me to make their career. And it's like, you don't need me to make your career. You need three funny friends. There are three friends with a similar vision. Yeah. Do something with them. And that's exactly how you, that's how you started. That's how I started. Yeah. And so that's why I say stop asking for stop begging for permission to just start, you know, doing it. Just do it.Rob Cohen:The thing that, like using hanging with Dr. Z as an example, and only because it's something that I was involved in that came out of some friends of ours who were politically active when the elections were happening, the 2020 elections mm-hmm. . And there was a group that had reached out to my friend Colin to make a campaign to stop Mitch McConnell. And so they asked Dana and I like, Could you guys help us out? And there's zero money involved, but are you guys interested? So Dana and I just started to shoot the breeze and we thought, let's just shoot Dr. Zs basically talking about why Mitch McConnell should be stopped. We shot it in his backyard and his girlfriend at the time played Nova and he played Dr. Zs and we did it in front of a, a green screen sheet and we knew we were gonna put the Statue of Liberty from Planet Apes behind them and shot a political ad in two hours.Rob Cohen:Right. And then we had so much fun with that and the, this little weird ad kind of did well enough within the small circle of people that love Dr. Z's political ads, that that's what led us to talking about the talk show. But again, it was just homemade. And my point is, I think whether people call it a passion project or whatever they wanna call it, if they have an idea and they write it or they direct it, or they do both, you immediately eliminate people saying, You can't do it because you did it. But more importantly, the people that could give you other opportunities respect the fact that you did it and didn't wait around for somebody to give you an opportunity. Right. Cause you will get the opportunities by creating your own opportunities.Michael Jamin:And that's, that's one thing I always admire about you, is you're, you're very entrepreneurial that way. And it's like, Yeah. You follow your heart.Rob Cohen:Yeah. But I'm also convinced, like as flukey as my career started, I'm convinced that it's gonna end. Every job will be my, my last. So I'm trying to keep more plate spinning Uhhuh. But I also love, you know, like whether it's, you know, somebody somewhere is such an amazing experience because of Bridget and Hannah and Paul who created, and Carolyn Strauss and hbo. And it is the nicest group of people and the most enjoyable environment where you can, every single person on that show in rural Illinois is there because they want to be there. Mm-Hmm. . And that energy drives that show where people watching it on TV can feel that vibe. Right. And, and whatever people think of that show, it's like summer camp where every year you get together and people are so excited to take very little money to be part of this experience.Rob Cohen:Right. And that the same thing can happen with person X deciding they want to make a short film or they wanna make fake commercials or whatever, because they're gonna set the tone and they're gonna create the vibe. So I think it's a mistake if somebody's like, I only wanna do cool stuff, or, you know, nobody's gonna let me do my ideas. It's like, Yeah, you're not letting yourself do your ideas. So when you told me you were starting your course, I'm like, the biggest obstacle to somebody making anything these days is the person who's bitching about it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That was me. Yeah.Rob Cohen:No, but, but it's all doable. Can you guarantee success? No. But you will gain amazing respect and opportunities by having it be tangible instead of complaining about it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Rob Cohen:And that's just a fact.Michael Jamin:That's just a fact. Well, where do you see, where do you, because the industry has changed so much since we started, What? I don't know. What's, what's your prognosis for the future? What do you see? People ask me this, like, I don't know.Rob Cohen:I think, what doesMichael Jamin:The present look like?Rob Cohen:Well, I don't know, but I think it's quite obvious that streamers of the future and broadcast networks are not the future. Mm-Hmm. . So you and I were lucky enough to start in sort of part of the glory days of the nineties when mm-hmm. , you know, you had multiple staffing meetings, you know, you would just, it would be that sort of dating circuit for a few weeks where you would bump into people going in and out of offices. And you started off like having four offers. And then it would be two offers, and then it would be one offer. And then it goes from you hoping you do get an offer, or hoping you get a meeting and you could see the tide is turned. So to me, the future is definitely streaming and smaller budget, shorter orders mm-hmm. . And if somebody is expecting it to go back to people paying you a lot of money to do 22 episodes of a TV show a year, I think that is very foolish. Yeah. In my opinion, because it'll never go back to that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Rob Cohen:But it shouldn't go back to that.Michael Jamin:Well, it is what it is. But, but no,Rob Cohen:But there's no more musty tv. Like Right.Michael Jamin:YouRob Cohen:Know, look at the Emmys. Like, it's the, the show with the biggest amount of TV stars on it that just aired, had the lowest ratings ever. And it's not because of one person, it's because they've lost their viewership. Right. It's, they, they're not gonna get it back. People aren't gonna wake up one day and go, Gosh, I can't wait to watch this award show on broadcast. Like, those days are over.Michael Jamin:Right. And so it's always about, it's about hustling, it's about getting work, looking for the next job. Mm-Hmm. about doing your own stuff. Right. Yeah. And, and at the end of day it's gotta be, it's also has to be good. Whatever you're working on, like, you know, has to be great. Right. Well, IRob Cohen:Mean, look, I've done more than my share of crap and largely in my own hand. And I think that an opportunity is an opportunity. You know, there's a lot of credits I don't have in my IMDB page because the show was either a deeply unpleasant experience, or it's such a crappy show. You would spend so much time explaining it to people that they would fall asleep. And so the reason that I've called those credits is because it's, I'm grateful for the experience, but it was a stepping stone to what, what I wanted to do. And if I hadn't taken crappy show X, it wouldn't have led to a more positive thing. And, and I think like what you're doing is encouraging people to pursue an idea that they really believe in and learn the basics of how to write it and shoot it. Mm-Hmm. and just that small amount of initiative, even if you never show your project to anybody, you've made it, It's, it's an immense amount of satisfaction. Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:. That's right. Incredible. Exactly right. And I, I said that as well. And if you didn't enjoy it, then this Hollywood thing is not for you. Cuz if you're not enjoying it for free, you're not gonna enjoy it when someone's banging, you just, you, you're just gonna get money for it. That's it. Yeah.Rob Cohen:And there's people that do that, and they make a fortune. But it's also, you know, like, not to keep talking about when you and I started, but mm-hmm. just shoot movie was in the nineties, and if you said NBC in the nineties had so many comedies, some were good and some were terrible. But now if you look at nbc, are they doing any comedies? Like maybe two?Michael Jamin:Yeah, maybe. Yeah.Rob Cohen:Yeah. So, so it's the same place, but it's the, the tide is clear. So for somebody to aspire to working on wacky old timey NBC comedies, it's very foolish. However, if they are a self starter and, and determine what their roadmap is, nobody will stop them. You can't guarantee success, but at least you've tried it and you might be successful trying it and pursue what you like.Michael Jamin:See Rob Cohen is Rob Cohen. Everyone is, is there something where, is there something, What, what, Is there something people can do to follow? What do you, what what do you wanna, Can we plug something about what you're doing? Can we No, no. Can,Rob Cohen:No, I mean, I'm not on social media. I, I'm I just, I I'm genuinely appreciative of the projects that invite me to be a small part of it. And those happen, you know, here and there. And there's nothing to really follow. But I, I just think I'm excited to see this on your, your podcast. You've built a great following.Michael Jamin:I'll say this, when I need a pick me up, when I need a little encouragement, I call you mm-hmm. to kick me in the ass. Right. So I, you're just a great dude, and I appreciate you so much and for coming on and for sharing, but you thought was what was boring, but it was not boring at all. I, I learned some things about you.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I was a disaster as a young man, and now I'm an older disaster.Michael Jamin:, that's soRob Cohen:What you're, what you're doing, I know you're wrapping it up, but IMichael Jamin:Well, that's okay. I I don't wanna take more of your time, but go ahead. No, you'reRob Cohen:Not. That's, you're not, I'm, you've got as, as long as you want. I, I really think that if somebody wants to be a writer or director or producer or an editor, then do it. Like, again, you don't have to show it to anybody, but if somebody writes something really great, you can show it to people and someone will recognize that you have talent, but nobody's gonna be able to know anything about what you want to do if you haven't, if you can't manifest it. Right. So you know, again, like when you guys gave me that opportunity on Marin, unbeknownst to me, it, it was a huge help in me getting my next directing job because it, it legitimized me as a director, and then the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. But if I hadn't had that opportunity, it would be a struggle until there was another opportunity. Right.Michael Jamin:So you wanna It would happen eventually.Rob Cohen:Yeah. But you wanna be prepared for those opportunities. Right, right. So I just think that's just common sense. But what you're doing now, like if I told you you're gonna be doing this five years ago, you would, you would laugh.Michael Jamin:I would've said absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Wisdom, Rob. Hustle. Hustle muscle. That's it. I can't thank you enough for coming on, coming on the show time, man. Thank you for being my first guest. I, I didn't, I'm surprised I let you talk so much. I thought maybe I'd be doing all the talkingRob Cohen:. No, I'm surprised I talk so muchMichael Jamin:. I'm surprised. I'll let you get a word edgewise. Yeah. I dog a lot. Dude, thank you so much again. AndRob Cohen:Anytime. I love it.Michael Jamin:Don't go anywhere. We're gonna, we're gonna have a post more to wrap up after this, but Sure, sure. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And until next time,Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs

Recorded on Thursday 25th August 2022. Joseph Hadfield, Sunderland expert Andy Gordon, Callum Cheswick - sitting in for Josh Chapman - and debutant George Barber - sitting in for Connor Thorpe - review Sheffield Wed's games against Peterborough, Bolton and Rochdale and Sheffield Utd's games against Sunderland and Blackburn. They also preview Luton v Sheffield Utd and Sheffield Wed v Forest Green, plus Joseph and Andy run through the local round-up, there's another quiz question and another round of Unpredictable, featuring the 'Wildcard'.

Andy Gordon tells Gaydos and Chad that the governor's new border wall idea is stupid and not worth it. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Recorded on Monday 15th August 2022. Joseph Hadfield, Connor Thorpe and Sunderland expert Andy Gordon - sitting in for Josh Chapman - review Sheffield Wed's games against MK Dons, Sunderland and Charlton and Sheffield Utd's games against Millwall, West Brom and Middlesbrough. Andy gives his thoughts on the Black Cats' start to the season, plus they preview Peterborough Utd v Sheffield Wed and Sheffield Utd v Sunderland. There's also a shorter off-the-cuff local round-up from Joseph and another round of Unpredictable, featuring the 'Wildcard'.

Recorded on Thursday 19th May 2022. A new episode of Football Forum, hosted by Joseph Hadfield and Connor Thorpe, with special guest, Sunderland expert Andy Gordon. The boys focus on the Owls, reviewing both legs of the League 1 play-off semi-final between Sheffield Wed and Sunderland. They also preview the League 1 play-off final, between Wycombe and Sunderland, and they predict the scoreline.

Speaker – Andy Gordon

This episode features a conversation about the Woodland and Waterways EcoWatch project co-ordinated by Haliburton's own Ulinks Community-Based Research group. Provincial government environmental research has been in decline for many years as the Ministries of Natural Resources and the Environment had been reduced by successive provincial governments to mere shadows of their former selves. Lake associations and other local voluntary organizations with ecological mandates have attempted as best they can to fill the resulting research void through citizen science and other forms of community-based research. Ulinks' Woodlands and Waterways EcoWatch project aims to increase the support for local research to enhance the ecological sustainability of our lakes and forests and the ecosystems that keep them healthy. Ulinks reps, Andy Gordon, Sadia Fischer, and Jim Prince describe the history behind the creation of this new collaboration and its implications for enhancing our knowledge of local lake and terrestrial health.

Travis Pennick and Andy Gordon join the Professor with their favorite beers for Prooftoberfest!  Listen, like, review, and share! Send show ideas or ask a be a guest or guest host to host@thepeoplesproof.com, and join the Facebook Page at tinyurl.com/ThePeoplesProofFB!

Michael “Shimmy” Chmielewski, Andy Gordon, Greg Bellan, Sherif Mansour, and Matt Lozy talk about rum & highlight some brands that would make Jobu proud!  Listen and look for these brands at your nearest Canepastan Ration Stores! The guys discuss the latest OHLQ lottery, and take a deep dive into Buffalo Trace's announcement that there will be 2021 George T. Stagg.  Is this a Stagg-gate or should folks just be expecting more than usual Staggflation?  Listen, like, subscribe and share where you enjoy podcasts!  Send show ideas or ask a be a guest or guest host to host@thepeoplesproof.com, and join the Facebook Page at tinyurl.com/ThePeoplesProofFB!

Proofers know there's more good stuff on the shelves than just Bourbon and Rye.  The Professor is joined again by Michael “Shimmy”Chmielewski of Southern Glazer Spirits to learn more about tequila and what folks can find on Canepastan shelves.  Sherif Mansour and his cousin, Andy Gordon and his wife, and Mark Gutkowski walk Proofers through a tasting.  Producer Christian even gets in on the action!   Listen, like, review, and share! Send show ideas or ask a be a guest or guest host to host@thepeoplesproof.com, and join the Facebook Page at tinyurl.com/ThePeoplesProofFB!

Speaker – Andy Gordon

This week, first of all, Abby continues our Summer Psalms Series by exploring Psalm 131 - a song reminding us of God's maternal care and affection for us, and our invitation to rest in him. Then, Andy takes us through Psalm 150 with a musical accompaniment from some creative friends as we explore together the joy of worshiping God through music.

It's not every day that you can hear a great conversation with the Head of Product of Excel. Brian Jones sits down with us and talks about the past, present, and very promising future of Excel. Rob and Brian go way back, and the stories and laughs abound!   Check out this cool World Orca Day Excel template for kids!   Episode Timeline: 4:00 - Brian's lofty title is Head of Product at Excel, The importance and magic of Excel, and people's a-ha moments with Excel 20:25 - The difficulty of not seeing your projects' impact on the world and how the heck does Bluetooth fit into the story?!, Rob and Brian reminisce with some funny conference stories 32:00 - The XML file format and some very neat XML tricks that everyone should know about 51:25 - The birth of the Excel Web App and Rob can't believe some of the things that Brian's team has done with Excel 1:05:00 - How to onboard the Excel, VLOOKUP, and Pivot crowd into data modeling and Power BI, and the future of Excel most certainly includes the Lambda function (maybe!) Episode Transcript: Rob Collie (00:00:00): Hello, friends. Today's guest, Brian Jones, head of product for this thing you might've heard of called Microsoft Excel. Brian and I go back a long way. We were both youngsters at Microsoft at the same time, and we both worked on some early features of Office apps, and we're friends. Really, really have sincerely warm feelings about this guy, as you often do with people that you essentially grew up with. And that's what we did. When Brian and I first worked together, he was working on Word and I was working on Excel. But even though Brian was on Word at the time, he was already working on what we would today call citizen developer type of functionality in the Word application. So even though we were essentially on different sides of the aisle within the Office organization, we were already finding ourselves able to connect over this affinity for the citizen developer. Rob Collie (00:00:55): Now we have some laughs during this conversation about how in hindsight, the things he and I were working on at the time didn't turn out to be as significant as we thought they were in the moment. But those experiences were very valuable in shaping both of us for the initiatives that came later. Rob Collie (00:01:11): Like almost everyone at Microsoft, Brian has moved around a bit. He's worked on file formats for the entire Office suite, which ended up enabling Power Pivot version one to actually function the way that it should. He's worked on Office-wide extensibility and programmability, back to that citizen developer thing again. And in that light, it's only natural that Excel's gravity reeled him in. And in that light, it's only natural that someone like that, someone like Brian, found his way to Excel, and it really is a match made in heaven. And if you permit me the Excel joke, that turned out to be a great match. Rob Collie (00:01:50): We took the obligatory and entertaining, I hope, walk down memory lane. We spent a lot more time than I expected talking about file format. And the reason why is that file formats are actually a fascinating topic when you really get into it. Lot of history there, a lot of very interesting history and challenges we walked through. And of course, we do get around to talking about Excel, its current state, where it's headed, and also the amazing revelation for me that monthly releases actually mean a longer attention span for a product and how we ended up getting functionality now as a result of the monthly release cycle that would have never fit into the old multi-year release cycle. We were super grateful to have him on the show. And as usual, we learned things. I learned things. I have a different view of the world after having this conversation than I did before it, which is a huge gift. And I hope that you get the same sort of thing out of it. So let's get into it. Announcer (00:02:56): Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please? Announcer (00:03:03): This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast, with your host Rob Collie and your cohost Thomas Larock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element. Rob Collie (00:03:26): Welcome to the show. Brian Jones, how are you, sir? Brian Jones (00:03:30): I am fantastic. Thank you for having me, Rob. I'm excited. Rob Collie (00:03:33): So let's start here today. Well, you and I go way back, but today, what's your job title and what are your responsibilities? Brian Jones (00:03:42): So today, my job is I'm the head of product for the Excel team. So I lead the team of product managers that are tasked with or given the honor of deciding the future of Excel, where we go with Excel, what are the set of things that we go and build Rob Collie (00:03:59): Head of product. That's a title that we didn't have back when I was still at Microsoft. We did at one point have something called a product unit manager. Is it similar to that? How does that relate? Brian Jones (00:04:11): That's a good question. So we're continuing to evolve the way that we use titles internally. So internally, we have titles that still for most folks externally don't make any sense, like program manager, group program manager, program manager manager, director of program manager. And so for externally, whenever I'm on LinkedIn or if I do PR interviews, things like that, I use the term head of product. Internally, we don't have the term head of product. Rob Collie (00:04:37): Okay. All right. So that's a translation for us. Brian Jones (00:04:40): Yes, exactly. Trying to translate the Microsoft internal org chart to something that makes more sense to folks. Rob Collie (00:04:49): Yeah. So things like, if we use the word orthogonal, what we're really saying is that's not relevant. Brian Jones (00:04:53): Exactly. Rob Collie (00:04:54): That kind of decoder ring. Brian Jones (00:04:57): I didn't realize orthogonal [inaudible 00:04:59] until you said it and I'm like, " Oh yeah, no. Of course, that is completely a ridiculous term to use." Rob Collie (00:05:03): Or I don't know if they still do this, but an old joke that Dave [Gayner 00:05:07] and I used to have, it was all his joke at the time. It was big bet. Do we still talk about big bet? We're going to place a big bet. Brian Jones (00:05:14): Yep. Big bet or big rocks. Big rocks. You know the- Rob Collie (00:05:17): Big rocks. Whoa. Brian Jones (00:05:18): Yeah. It's kind of an analogy. You've got a jar and you want to fill it with the big rocks first, and then you let the sand fill in the rest of the space. So what are the big rocks? Rob Collie (00:05:26): Okay. Yeah. But big bet was one that we used to always make fun of. Brian Jones (00:05:31): Especially when there'd be, "Here are the big bets," and there's 20 of them. Rob Collie (00:05:34): Yeah. The joke I think we used to make was we would call something a big bet when we really didn't have any good reason for doing what we were doing. Anyway, all right. So you're head of product for Excel. That is a pretty heady job. That's pretty awesome. Brian Jones (00:05:52): It's a pretty fun job. Absolutely. Rob Collie (00:05:54): I mean, you're not lacking for eyeballs in that business, are you? We're all friends here. We're all on the same side of this story. I mean, it is the lingua franca of business, Excel. It is the business programming tool. People don't necessarily think of it as programming, but formulas are a programming language. To be head of product for the platform, you could call it an application, but really it's probably more accurate to call it a platform that is, I think, is the single most critical platform to business in the world. That's pretty amazing. Brian Jones (00:06:30): Absolutely. And that's usually the way that we talk about it internally. It depends on who your audience is externally when you're talking about it. But yeah, Excel is a programming language. I remember even before, back when I was on the Word team, but I would go and meet with PJ, who ran program manager for Office all up. And he'd always referred to Excel more as an IDE. And that didn't totally resonate with me at the time because to me, Excel was just a list app, an app for just tracking things. I didn't totally understand what he meant by that, but I'd nod cause he was super important and smart. And it wasn't really until I started working on the team that I was like, "Oh, I totally understand all these things that PJ used to reference." Rob Collie (00:07:06): This one of the things I had been dying to ask you is when you and I first met, I was working on the Excel team, but still had... Gosh, this was year 2000 maybe, maybe 2001. And even though I was nominally part of the Excel team at that point, I still didn't really know Excel, and you were working on Word. So the thing we both had in common at that point is that we didn't know Excel. So I wanted to get your perspective. I know that you've done some things other than Word, but we were already sort of teasing this. So let's just get into it. What's it like to come from "outside" Excel and how's that transition? How do you view Excel differently today versus what you did before? We already started talking about that. The list keeper. That's very common way for people to view it. Brian Jones (00:07:53): When I first started, yeah, I was on Word, although I was working on more kind of end user developer type of pieces of Word. That's how you and I first interacted because we were talking about XML. The first feature I owned was a feature called easy data binding to Excel. And the whole idea was when you could easily bring content from Excel into Word, but then create a link back so that the content in Word would stay live. And a lot of this stuff that I did while I was on Word was all about trying to make Word a little bit more of a structured tool so that people could actually program against it because Word is completely unstructured. It's just free-flowing text. So trying to write a solution against that is almost impossible because you can't predict anything. So we did a lot of work to add structure, whereas Excel out of the gate has all that structure. So it's just much easier to go and program. Brian Jones (00:08:39): If I had gone straight from Word to Excel, it would have been a little bit more of a shock, but I actually had about eight years in between where I was running our extensibility team. So a lot of the work we would do was revving the add-in model and extensibility for Excel. So I got some exposure there. When we did all of the file format stuff and the whole file format campaign, That was a couple of years where I was working really closely with a bunch of folks in Excel, like Dan [Badigan 00:09:06] and folks like that. So I had a bit of exposure, but I'll tell you when I first joined, I had a similar job, but it was for the Access team and we were building up some new tech. Brian Jones (00:09:17): Some of it still is there today. Office Forms came out of some of the investments that we were doing in Access. But when I showed up into Excel, I was very much in that mode of, "Why don't the Excel folks, get it? Everything should be a table with column headings." And like, "That's the model. And why do they stick with this grid? Clearly word of it is eventually going to go away from the printed page as the key medium. Excel's got to go away from the grid. And they've got to understand that this should just be all tables that can be related." And thankfully, I was responsible when I joined and didn't try and act like I knew everything. So I took some time to go and learn. Brian Jones (00:09:52): And it didn't take me long. We have some crazy financial modeling experts on the team and stuff like that, where I'd say it was maybe six months in that it clicked for me where I understood those two key pieces. The grid and formulas are really the soul and the IP of Excel. The fact that you can lay out information really easily on a grid, you have formulas that are your logic, and you can do this step-by-step set of processes where each cell is almost like another little debug point for you. [Cal captain sub 00:10:20] second, and it's the easiest way to go and learn logic and how to build logic. Brian Jones (00:10:25): I didn't get any of that at that time, but you pick it up pretty quickly when you start to look at all the solutions that people are building. And now, obviously, I've been on the team now for five years, so I'm super sold around it. But I'd say it took me a little while and I'm still learning. It takes a while to learn the whole thing. Rob Collie (00:10:41): Yeah. It's funny. Like you said, Word's completely unstructured. You're looking in from the outside and you're like, "Well, Excel is completely structured." Then you get close to it. You're like, "Oh no. And it's not, really." Brian Jones (00:10:52): No. Not at all. Rob Collie (00:10:53): I mean, it's got the cells. Rows and columns. You can't avoid those. But within that landscape, is it kind of deliberately wild west? You can do whatever you need to. You're right. Okay. So tables, yes. Tables are still very important. But you've got these parameters and assumptions and inputs. And what do you do with those? I mean, they're not make a table for those. Brian Jones (00:11:19): Yep. Absolutely. I think that the thing that I started to get really quickly was the beauty of that. Like you said, it's unstructured. You have nice reference points. So if you're trying to build logic, formulas, you can reference things. But there's no rule about whether or not things go horizontally, vertically, diagonally, whatever. You can take whatever's in your mind that you're trying to make a decision around and use that flexible grid to lay it out. It's like a mind map. If you think about the beauty, the flexibility of a mind map, that's what the grid is. You can go and lay out all the information however it makes the most sense to you. Brian Jones (00:11:53): Really, that's what makes Excel still so relevant today. If you think about the way business is evolving, people are getting more and more data, change is just more constant, business processes are changing all the time. So there are certain processes where people can say, "This thing is always going to work the same way." And so you can go and get a vertical railed solution. That's why we use the term rail. That's kind of like if I always know I'm going to take this cargo from LA to San Francisco, I can go and build some rails, and I got a train, it'll always go there and do the same thing. But if business is constantly changing, those rails are quickly going to break and you're going to have to go off the rails. Excel is more like a car than a train. You can go anywhere with it. And so as the business processes change, the people who are using Excel are the same people who are the ones changing those business processes. Those are the business folks. And so they can go and evolve and adapt it and they don't have to go and find another ISV to go and build them another solution based on that new process that's probably going to change again in six months. Thomas Larock (00:12:52): So Brian's been in charge for five years of Excel, and he's sitting there telling us how there's still more to learn. And two weeks ago, we all got renewed as MVPs. And so I was on the MVP website, and I'm going through all the DLs I can join because that's all a manual process these days. I'm like, "Oh, there's the Excel MVP DL. I don't know why I haven't joined this yet." So I click. I'm immediately flooded with 100 emails a day. 100 emails a day. Now, I don't believe I am a novice when it comes to Excel. I don't. I know I'm not on you all's level at all when it comes to it. You build and work and live the product. But I know my way around enough that I can explain things to others when they say, "I'm trying to do this thing." "Oh, I think it's possible." Thomas Larock (00:13:40): But I read these passionate MVPs that you have and the stuff that they highlight, and it's not complex stuff. It's like, "Hey, this title bar seems to be wider in this." And I'm like, I might not even notice this stuff. And I see these features that aren't a complex feature, but I'm like, "I didn't even know that was there. I didn't even know you could do that. Oh, you can do that too." There's so much. And like you said, it's a programming language. It's an IDE. It's all these things. As [Sinopski 00:14:10] said, "It's the killer app for Windows." To have the head of product say that, there's just so much. He really means it. There is a lot to it. And it is something that is malleable and usable by hundreds of millions of people a day. Brian Jones (00:14:25): Yeah. Rob Collie (00:14:26): My old joke is, if you want to know how good someone is at Excel, just ask them, "How good are you at Excel?" And then take their answer and invert it. Brian Jones (00:14:37): That's absolutely true. Rob Collie (00:14:38): If someone says, "Yeah, I'm really good at it," You know they don't have any clue because they haven't glimpsed the depth of that particular mine shaft. And once someone has been to the show, they know better than to oversell their knowledge because they know they can't know everything. Rob Collie (00:14:54): You say you're good at Excel. And then the very next question is one that you're not going to be able to answer. So you got to be careful. [inaudible 00:15:00] person views Excel as Word with a grid. And that's not obviously what it is, but that's the oversimplification for... I don't know... maybe 80% of humanity. Brian Jones (00:15:10): Yeah. And the thing is, there's a lot more that we're doing in the app now to try and make it, one, more approachable, because there's a set of folks that just find it really intimidating, for sure. You open it up and it's this huge, dense grid. Like, "Hey, where do I start? What should I go and do? I've never even heard of this thing before." In the past, a lot of stuff that we would do, we never really thought about those first steps of using the app because we were always like, "Well, everybody knows our app. We're going to go and do the things for everybody that knows our app." And I think we're doing a better job now trying to think, "Well, there's a bunch of people who don't know about our app. Let's go and figure out what the experience should be like for them." Brian Jones (00:15:43): But we've done a lot with AI where we're trying to get a little bit better about... We look at your data. Recommend things to you. So we'll say, "If you've got a table of data, hey, here's a pivot table." You may not have even heard of the pivot table before. So really more like, "Hey, here's a summary of your data." You want to go and insert that. Brian Jones (00:16:00): In fact, those tests are always fun because then we get to work with people who've really haven't ever used a pivot table. So it's always fun to hear the words that they use to describe what a pivot table is. It's like, "Oh wow, you grouped my data for me." Or stuff like that like, "Wow. That's a nice name for it too." So we're trying to do more of that to expose people to really those higher-end things. But those things where for those of us that use it, once you discover that stuff, you're even more hooked on the product. You're like, man, that first experience of somebody built a pivot table for you and you realize, "Oh my God, I didn't know I could do this with my data. Look how much easier it is for me to see what's going on," and trying to get more people to experience that kind of magical moment. Thomas Larock (00:16:39): Now imagine being me and only knowing pivot through T-SQL and that magical day when you meet Rob and he's like, "You just pivot table [inaudible 00:16:49]." And you're like, "How many hours have I wasted? Why didn't someone tell me?" Brian Jones (00:16:56): Yeah. We get that a lot when we'll go and show stuff. Oftentimes, the reaction is more frustration. "I can't believe I didn't know about this for the past five years." Rob Collie (00:17:05): We get that all the time now with Power Pivot and Power Query and Power BI in general. The target audience for that stuff hasn't been really effectively addressed by Microsoft marketing. But even back, just regular pivot tables, such a powerful tool, and so poorly named. You weren't around on the Excel team, Brian, when I waged a six-month campaign to try to rename pivot table to summary table. Brian Jones (00:17:31): Oh really? Rob Collie (00:17:31): Yeah. Brian Jones (00:17:31): How long ago was that? Rob Collie (00:17:33): Oh, well, it was a long time ago. I mean [crosstalk 00:17:35]- Brian Jones (00:17:36): Pivot tables had already been out for quite a while. Rob Collie (00:17:37): Oh God. Yeah. I mean, they were long established. They were in the product. I didn't even know what they did. Believe it or not, I worked on the Excel team for probably about a year before I actually figured what pivot tables could do. People would just throw it around all the time on the team like, "Well, once you have the data, then you can chart it. You can pivot it," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I would fit in- Brian Jones (00:17:58): You would nod? Rob Collie (00:17:59): I would fit in... I would also author sentences like that, that had the word pivot in it. It was a pretty safe thing to do. There was no downside to it. But believe it or not, the time that I discovered what pivot tables are for... you'll love this... I was trying to figure out how to skill balance the four different fantasy football leagues that I had organized within the Excel and Access team. I wanted to spread it out. Levels of experience. I've got this table of data with the person's name and their level of experience and my tentative league assignment. And just this light bulb went on. I'm like, "Oh my God, I bet this is what pivot tables are for." Total expertise by league. Like, "Oh, look at that. It's totally it." That was a big change for me. That was during the release, Brian, where you and I were working together. Brian Jones (00:18:54): I think I played on one of those fantasy football leagues. Rob Collie (00:18:56): You might have. Brian Jones (00:18:57): I was one of the people with zero experience. I remember going into the draft not knowing... I knew football, but I didn't know anything about fantasy football. Rob Collie (00:19:03): That's right. We did loop you in. So let's do that way back machine for a moment. That release when you and I met was the first release on Excel. I was the lead at that point. It was my first time being a lead. It was the first time I was in charge of a feature set, and it was really my baby, this XML thing we were doing. And the reason for that was because no one was paying any attention. That was this weird release. For a whole release, Office went and tried to do cloud services without having any idea what that really was going to mean. And so we stripped all of the applications down to skeleton crews. And this is really the only reason why on the Excel side, some youngster like me was allowed to be a lead and come up with a feature, because no one cared. No one was paying any attention. There was no one minding the store. Rob Collie (00:19:48): I remember being so wild-eyed enthusiastic about how much this was going to change the world, this XML import export future. And I mean, you might as well just take it out. I can't imagine it's being used hardly at all today. I bet Power View is used more often than the XML import export feature. You all have done a pretty good job of hiding it. So kudos. But it was a good thing to cut my teeth on. I learned a lot of valuable lessons on that release. Rob Collie (00:20:24): How do you feel about the XML structure document work that you were doing in Word at the time? Do you kind of have the same feeling looking back at it that I do? Brian Jones (00:20:33): It was a similar thing. In fact, we did rip it out a couple of years later. I think that when you and I would talk about it, we would talk about these scenarios that were super righteous and great. And then we just start geeking out on tech. And then we would get way too excited about the tech and we kind of forget about those initial scenarios. We wouldn't stop and think, "Wait a minute. These users we're talking about, are they actually going to go and create XML files?" Because you need one of those to start with before any of this stuff makes sense. And no, of course, they're not. But for me, a lot of it started from that. Like I said, one of my first features was that easy data binding to Excel feature. And we thought, "Hey, maybe XML would be a good tech for us to use as a way of having Word and Excel talk to each other," because clearly they have different views on what formatting is and how to present information, but the underlying semantic information, that could be shared. Brian Jones (00:21:20): And so I could have a set of products show up in Excel as a table. And when they come into Word, they look more like a catalog of products. That totally makes sense. And we just did a lot of assumptions that people would make, do all the glue that was really necessary. And of course, they didn't. So I had the exact same experience. The other big thing that was different back then for us was we would plan something, meet with customers for six months, but then it'd take three years to go and build it. We had no way of validating that stuff with customers because we couldn't get them any of the builds. And then even after we shipped it, they weren't actually going to deploy it for another three-plus years. And so the reality is from when you had the idea to where you actually can see that it's actually not working and people aren't using it is probably about six years. So you've probably moved on to something else by then. Brian Jones (00:22:04): The only way you really as a PM got validation that your feature was great was whether or not leadership and maybe press got excited about your thing, but you didn't get a whole lot of signal from actual customers whether or not the thing was working, which is obviously completely different now, thank goodness. Rob Collie (00:22:18): Yeah. That Is true. It took some of the fun out of being done too, now looking back at it, like the day of the ship party, when we were done with the three-year release. "Okay, fine." We'd dunk each other in fountains and there'd be hijinks and stuff. But the world did not experience us being done. That was purely just us feeling done. And then it was like you take a week off maybe, and then the next week, you're right back to the grind at the very beginning. You never got the payoff. Even if you built something really good, by the time the world discovered it and it was actually really helping people at any significant scale, you're no longer even working on that product. Brian Jones (00:22:57): Yeah. You're doing something completely different. Rob Collie (00:22:59): You might be in a different division, both finding out the things in real time that Rob Collie (00:23:03): [inaudible 00:23:00] Both finding out the things, sort of in real time, that aren't working. That's the obvious advantage, right? But there's also this other emotional thing. Like you never got the satisfaction when you actually did succeed. Brian Jones (00:23:11): Right. You didn't see it actually get picked up, adopted. Millions and millions of people using it, which is what the team gets now. We no longer pick a project and say, "Okay, how many people and how long is this going to take?" You really just try and figure out what's critical mass for that project. And then you just let them run. And you'd be really clear around what are the goals and outcomes they're trying to drive. And they just keep going until they actually achieve that. Or we realized that we were wrong, right? And we say, "Hey, we thought people are going to be excited about this. It's not even an implementation thing. We were just wrong. We misread what people really were trying to do. Let's stop. Let's kind of figure out a way of moving off of that and go and figure out what the next thing is we should go and do." Rob Collie (00:23:50): That era that we're talking about right now. The 2003 release of Office. I was still very much a computer science graduate and amateur human. That's exactly backwards, it turns out, if you're trying to design a tool that's going to be used by humanity. Brian Jones (00:24:08): Well, it's what leads you to get really Excited about XML? Rob Collie (00:24:12): That's right. Yeah. That's right. Tech used to have such a power in my life. I'm exactly the opposite now. Every time I hear about some new tech, I'm like, "Yeah, prove it." I am not going to believe in this new radical thing until it actually changes the world around me. I'm not going to be trying to catch that wave. But XML did that to me. It was almost a threat. If we don't take this seriously, we're going to get outflanked. It got really egregious. Rob Collie (00:24:42): I had a coworker one time in that same release in the middle of one of my presentations asked me. This guy wasn't particularly, in the final analysis, looking back, not one of the stronger members of the team, but he had a lot of sibling rivalry essentially in his DNA. And he'd asked me in front of his crowded room, "Well, what are you going to do about Bluetooth?" And, we didn't know what Bluetooth was yet, right? It was like, unless I had an answer for what we were going to do about Bluetooth and Excel, right? Then I was not up on things. You know, the thing that we use to connect our headphones. At the time, Bluetooth was one of those things that might just disrupt everything. Brian Jones (00:25:29): It was funny. It was at that same time, I was asked to give a presentation to the Word team about Bluetooth. We were all assigned things to go and research as part of planning and that was one of the ones I was asked. And I gave a presentation that was just very factual. Here's what it is. And I was given really bad feedback that like, "Hey, I wasn't actually talking about it strategically and how it was going to affect Word. I was just being very factual." And I was like, "I don't understand. I don't understand what success looks like in this task." Right. Rob Collie (00:25:59): I remember going, a couple of years later, going into an offsite, those offsite big, I don't know if you all still do those things, big offsite, blue sky brainstorming sessions. There was this really senior development lead that was there with me. And he and I were kind of buddies. At one point, halfway through the day, he just leans over to me and says, "Hey, I'm going to the restroom and I'm not coming back." And I looked at him in horror, almost like "Thou dost dishonor the offsite!?" And he's like, "Yeah, you know, I've never really believed that much in this particular phase of the product cycle. It's never really meant anything to me. It's all just BS." It was just devastating. I just knew it was right. He was... Brian Jones (00:26:46): But you didn't want to, you didn't want to believe that. Rob Collie (00:26:52): I mean, I felt so special. I was invited to the offsite, the big wigs and everything. Brian Jones (00:26:57): They have nice catering too, Rob Collie (00:26:59): Yeah and he was totally right to leave. Brian Jones (00:27:04): I always remember getting super nervous to present stuff for those. Once it was actually, it was one of our XML ones where I was trying to convince, it was my attempt to get us to create an XML file format, which actually ended up, obviously, happening. But I got an engineer to go to work with and we had Word through an add-in, start to write to XML. And it was just a basic XML format. And then I built all of these... it was like asp.net tools that would go and then create an HTML version of the Word doc that was editable. And it also even created, I think it was called WHAP, I don't remember, like a tech for phones. It was back when you didn't have the rich feature phones, but these basic ones. Brian Jones (00:27:41): And so I created this thing that was almost like a SharePoint site. So you could take all your Word docs, go through this add-in, and then you could actually get an HTML view of them to edit it and a phone view of them to go and edit it. Brian Jones (00:27:51): I think it was probably 2002 or 2001, but I was so excited to go and show that at the offsite because I was like, "Okay, this is where I make it, man. Everybody's going to be so excited about me." But I don't know. I think everybody was excited about Bluetooth at that point or something. Yeah. Rob Collie (00:28:05): Oh yeah Bluetooth, WHAP was so 15 minutes ago. So there's a few, irresistibly funny or interesting things I want to zero in on from that era before we come back to present, and we're definitely going to come back to present, for sure. Rob Collie (00:28:21): First of all, we went to a conference like some W3C sponsor. I don't think it was necessarily W3C affiliated, but it was the XML conference. Brian Jones (00:28:31): The one in Baltimore? Rob Collie (00:28:32): Yes. Rob Collie (00:28:33): Okay. Now two very, very, very memorable things happened at that conference. I bet you already know one of them. But the other one was, and we're just going to make this all this anonymous person's fault. Okay. We're not going to abdicate any responsibility. And we're just going to talk about our one coworker from Eastern Europe who brought his wife and they had vodka in their hotel fridge, or freezer, or something like that. And every day I would wake up and say, "I am not going to get suckered into that again." Rob Collie (00:29:12): And then the next day I would wake up and say the same thing. That was a tough trip. Brian Jones (00:29:16): I definitely remember that. Rob Collie (00:29:18): Even on my young, relatively young, body at the time that... Trying to keep up with that, that was difficult. But the single most outstanding memory from that conference, and we will also leave this person anonymous. But there was an executive at Microsoft who was hotter on XML than either you or I, which is hard to believe, right. And we ended up with the sponsored after hours session at this conference. You remember this? You see... Brian Jones (00:29:45): I do. Rob Collie (00:29:46): You know where we're going. Okay. So this was a 30 minute sponsored by Dell or something. Right. It was a 30 minute session, at 5:00 PM, at the end of a conference day where everyone's trying to go back and get to the bars or whatever, right.? But, it's a Microsoft executive, it's Dell sponsored, we'll show up. And the plan was at the end of this 30 minute talk given by this executive, he was going to bring all of us up on the stage to show everyone the team that had done all of this, right? Great plan. Except it was the worst presentation in history. I remember it running for two hours. It was so bad that we started off with 200 people in the room and at the end of it, and I'm just like an agony the whole time cause like I'm associated with this, right? Rob Collie (00:30:31): At the end of these two hours, or what felt like two hours anyway, it was easily 90 minutes. There's five people left in this room of 200 and it's not like the presentation is adapted to the fact that it's a smaller audience. It's just continued to drone on exactly as if everyone was there, right? And I'm sitting here thinking, "Okay, he's not going to call us all up on this stage. There's been more people on the stage than in the audience. If he does this, he's clearly not going to do that." And then he did and we all had to parade up there and stand there like the biggest dodos. I've never been more professionally embarrassed I don't think, than that moment. Rob Collie (00:31:14): And we're all looking at each other as we get up out of our seats like, "Oh my god." Brian Jones (00:31:19): I definitely remember this. Rob Collie (00:31:22): I don't see how you could have forgotten. Brian Jones (00:31:23): Well, yeah. And the person that we're talking about is actually one of my favorite people on the planet. I totally... I love this guy. I view him as like a mentor and everything, but... Which makes me remember it even more. Brian Jones (00:31:34): I think it was just, there was so much excitement. There'd been so much build up to this and this was like a kind of crescendo right? Of bringing this stuff. We probably should have had it a little bit shorter. Rob Collie (00:31:46): I mean when it reaches the point where clueless, mid twenties, Rob Collie is going, "Oh no, this is not the emotional, this not the move." You don't do it. Brian Jones (00:31:58): I'm no longer excited about being called up. Rob Collie (00:32:04): So from my perspective, you kind of parlayed that experience of the XML and all that kind of stuff. I think you did a really fantastic job of everything you guys did on that product. Again, it was the relevance that ultimately fell flat for both of us right. I guess in the end, the excitement with XML wasn't really all that appreciably different from the excitement about Bluetooth. I mean, it's everywhere, right? XML is everywhere. Bluetooth is everywhere and neither one of them really changed things in terms of what Excel or Word should be doing. It seemed like you played that into this file format second act. And I think very, very, very effectively, actually there was a little bit of controversy. Rob Collie (00:32:43): Let's set the stage for people. This was the 2007 release of Office where all the file formats got radically overhauled. This is when the extra X appeared on the end of all the file names, right? Brian Jones (00:32:58): Yeah. Rob Collie (00:32:58): There was a controversy internally. Kind of starting with Bill actually. That we shouldn't make well-documented transparent file format specs, right. There was this belief that the opaque file formats of the previous decades was in some sense, some big moat against competition. And of course, a lot of our competitors agreed. Tailor out in the public saying, "Yes, this is a barrier to competition. It's a monopolistic, blah, blah, blah." We, Microsoft had just gotten its ass kicked in the Anna Truss case. So it was really interesting. I credit Brian, your crew, with really advocating this very effectively. That's a difficult ship to turn. First of all, you got all these teams to buy into all this extra work, which no one wants to do. But when it's not even clear whether you have top level executive support, in fact, you might actually have C-suite antagonism towards an idea. To get it done. That's a career making achievement. I'm sure you remember all of that. Right. But what are your reactions to that controversy? Do you remember being in the midst of that? Brian Jones (00:34:12): I do. It was definitely a long running project. It evolved over quite a number of years. The beginning of it was, in that previous release, the XML stuff you and I were talking about was more about what we called "Custom XML". Right? So people would go and create for themselves. But in that same release, we had Word, we outputted an XML format that was our definition, which we called "Word ML" and Excel did a similar thing. Words' we try to make full fidelity. So you could save any word document in the XML format. Excel's was kind of a tailored down, it was less about formatting, it was more, "Hey, here's like..." It's almost like, "Here's a better version of CSV, right. But we're going to do it as XML." And so we already had a little bit of that. Brian Jones (00:34:53): And the whole reason we were looking at that was, on the Word side, for instance, a lot of the customer issues that we'd get where people would have corrupt files, they were corrupt because they there'd be some add-in that they had running or some third party app that was reading and writing word files. The files were fairly brittle and complex. The binary format... The binary format was written back in the days of floppy disks, right? So the top priority was how quickly can you write to a floppy disk and read from a floppy disc, right? It wasn't about, how easy is this for other people to go and read and write? Not because it was on purpose, make it hard. It was just the primary bid is let's get this thing so it's really easy to read and write from floppy, right? Brian Jones (00:35:31): And so in Word, we were like, "Wow, I think that there's a bigger opportunity here for an ecosystem around Word if we make it easy for people to read and write Word docs and build solutions around them." And so then the next release, the Excel team was looking at doing some big changes around a lot of the limitations, like how many rows you could have in columns, right. Lengths of like formulas and things like that. Right. And so there was this thing where the Excel team was like, "We are going to need to create a new file format." And on the word side, we thought this XML thing was great. We want to move to that as our new format. Brian Jones (00:36:01): And so everything kind of came together and it was clear. Hey, this is going to be the release that we are going to go and rev our file format, which we hadn't done in a while. This is also the release of the ribbon. So there were two really big major changes in that product, right? It was the new file format and the ribbon. It's funny. I still refer to it as the new file format, even though it's 15 years old. Rob Collie (00:36:23): Yeah. It's the new file format it's still new, yeah. Brian Jones (00:36:25): I still call it that, which is kind of nuts. But I think that the controversies you were talking about was really more of a... Boy, this is a really big deal for the product. We had changed file formats before in the past and not necessarily gotten it right. And there were a lot of challenges around compatibility and stuff. And so there was just a lot of worry of let's make sure you all have your stuff together here, right? Like let's make sure that this doesn't in any way break, stop people from wanting to upgrade to the new version. But it went really well. The whole goal of it was let's get something that we think third parties can go and read and write, and this is going to help build an ecosystem. And a new ecosystem run Office. Office already had big ecosystem with VBA and COMM add-ons and stuff like that, right.? But we won't have this new ecosystem around our file formats as a thing. That's why we chose... There's a packaging layer, which is all zip based. So if people haven't played around with it that XLSX, you can just put a .zip at the end and double click it. And it's just a zip file. And you can see a whole bunch of stuff inside of it. Right? Rob Collie (00:37:23): Yeah. If you're listening, you haven't done that go right now, run don't walk, grab an Excel file or a Word file, whatever. Go and rename the XLSX or BPTX, go ahead and rename it so that it ends in .zip and then open it up and you'll be blown away. Thomas Larock (00:37:38): PowerPoint is my favorite when I have to find some unknown setting that I need and I can just search through the whole thing. Yep. Rob Collie (00:37:45): Or all the images. You want to get all the images out of the PowerPoint file. It's just a zip file that has a bunch of images in it. Right. Brian Jones (00:37:50): So I also did this for backpack. It's the same thing. You can crack open the backpack by renaming a zip file... Thomas Larock (00:37:58): An actual physical backpack? What are we... what are we talking about here? Brian Jones (00:38:03): Ah yeah. Rob Collie (00:38:03): This is the digital acetate that is over the top of the entire physical world that you aren't aware of. Thomas Larock (00:38:08): Digital acetate, that's it? That's it. That's where the podcast peaks. Right? Those two words. We're all going home now. Brian Jones (00:38:19): Yeah. No. A SQL server, there's DAC pack, which is just the, say database schema. Then there's a backpack which has the data and the schema combined. But you can, if you rename them . zip, you can crack them open to see the XML that makes up those forms. So it's not just office products. Rob Collie (00:38:37): We ended up standardizing the entire thing, but that packaging format, it was called OPC, Open Packaging Convention, or something like that. It was something that we did in partnership with a Windows team. It's part of the final ISO standard for our file format. And then there were a lot of other folks that went and used that exact same standard. Because it's a really easy way of you have a zip package. You can have a whole bunch of pieces inside of it, which are XML. And then there's this convention for how you can do relationships between the different pieces. So I can have a slide. That's an XML and it can declare relationships to all the images that it uses. And that way it's really quick, easy to know, okay, here's all the content I need to grab if I want to move pieces of it outside of the file. Rob Collie (00:39:16): So the single coolest thing I've ever done with, we'll just call it your file format Brian. We'll just pretend that it was only you working on that. Brian Jones (00:39:23): Just me yeah, I was pretty busy, but yeah. Rob Collie (00:39:27): So the very, very first version of Power Pivot, first of all, your file format, the new file format made Power Pivot possible. We needed to go and add this gigantic binary stream of compressed data and everything, everything about Power Pivot needed to be saved in the file. At the beginning of the project, everyone was saying, "Oh, no, we're going to save it as two separate files." And I'm like, "Are you guys kidding?" The Pivot cache, for instance, is saved in the same file. You can't throw a multi file solution at people and expect it to... This was actually like Manhattan project, just to get that stream saved into the same file. It was pretty crazy. However, when it was done, there was something really awesome I wasn't aware of until the very end, which was, first of all, you could open up a zip file and just tunnel down and you would find a file in there called item one.data. Rob Collie (00:40:21): Okay. That was the Power Pivot blob. That was everything about the Power Pivot thing. And it was by far the biggest thing in the file, like it was like 99% of the file size was what was there. However, as this backup, someone had decided, I had nothing to do with this, to save all of the instructions. I think it's called XML for analysis XMLA. All of the instructions that would be required to rebuild exactly that file, but without any of the actual binary data in it. So it was a very, very small amount of XML. Okay. So here's what we would do because there were no good automation, no interfaces, no APIs. If we needed to add like 500 formulas to a Power Pivot file, you could go through the UI and write those 500 formulas, type, click, type, click, type, click. Rob Collie (00:41:08): Okay. So what we would do, and my first job outside of Microsoft, is we would go in there and we would edit that XML backup and add all the formulas we wanted in it. And by the way, I would use Excel to write these formulas. I would use string concatenation and all of that kind of stuff to write these things. It was very, very, very sensitive, one character out of place in the whole thing fails. So you make those changes. You save the file, reopen it, nothing happens because it's just the backup. Okay. So then you've got to go and you've got to create a zero byte item one.data file on your desktop and you copy it into the zip file and overwrite the real item one.data, therefore deliberately corrupting the primary copy. So when you reopen the file it triggers the backup process and it rehydrates with all of your stuff, it was awesome. Rob Collie (00:41:57): And then a couple of releases of Power Pivot later, suddenly that didn't work anymore and I was really pissed. But it just really shows you, it opens up so many opportunities that you never would have expected. And even a hack like that, that's not the kind that you'd be really looking for, but the fact that something like that even happens as a result of this is really indicative of what a success it was. Brian Jones (00:42:19): Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of those things where, I love building platforms, like that's my favorite part of the job. It's all those things that you see people do that you never would have predicted. Right? That's just so exciting. PowerPoint had this huge group of folks that would go and build things like doc assembly stuff, right. Where they go and automatically build PowerPoint decks on demand, right? Based on who you're going to go and present to cause they've just shredded the thing. In fact, when we did the ISO standardization, it was a 6,000 page doc that we had to go. And we built and reviewed with a standards body and we did it over about a year. Which sounds nuts, a 6,000 page doc in about a year. And the way that we were able to do that is there was never really a 6,000 page doc. There's a database where there's a row for every single element and attribute in this, in the whole schema, that would then have the column which is the description, which would just be the word XML. Brian Jones (00:43:09): And so we could, on demand, at any point, generate whatever view or part of the doc we wanted. So we'd say, "Hey, we're going to go in now, review everything that has to do with formatting across Word, Excel and PowerPoint." And so we just click a couple buttons and the database would spit out a Word doc that was just that part. Everybody could go and edit it cause we were using the structured elements we'd added to Word, which is called content controls, which was the next version of that XML stuff that we had to deprecate. And then the process, as soon as you'd finish editing that Word doc, we just submit it back. The process would go back and shred that Word doc again and put it all back in the database. And so we really used the file format to bootstrap documenting the file format. Rob Collie (00:43:48): And then when you dump a 6,000 page document on someone, they have no choice. But to just say, yep, it looks good to us. Brian Jones (00:43:55): Well, there was a pretty, incredibly thorough review still. It was just pretty impressive. The final vote that we had in Geneva, the process leading up to that, the amount of feedback that we got. Cause basically the ISO, you can kind of think of it like the UN, you go and show up and every country has a seat, right? I mean, not everybody participates, but anybody that wants to can. And so yeah, we had to respond to thousands of comments around different pieces, things that people wanted to see changed. Rob Collie (00:44:22): Yeah. I can imagine, right. Think about it. You just said at the final vote in Geneva. That's a heavy moment man. Thomas Larock (00:44:29): Yeah. That threw me off for a second. I thought, for sure, you were talking Switzerland, but now thinking that was just a code name. Rob Collie (00:44:38): No, I think, I think he was actually in Switzerland. Brian Jones (00:44:40): In Switzerland. Rob Collie (00:44:41): Have you seen the chamber where they do these votes? It looks just like the Senate from episode one of Star Wars. It's just like that. It's pretty heavy. Brian Jones (00:44:51): The little levitating... Rob Collie (00:44:53): The floating lift. Yeah. I think they call that digital acetate. I think that's what they call that. By the way on the Excel team, the way I came to look at the new file format and the open architecture of it, again, this this will show you how quickly I had turned into the more cynic side of things. Well, okay. We're going to be changing file formats. And we're doing that for our benefit because we didn't have enough bits allocated in the 1980s version of the file format that was saved to floppy disc, as you pointed out, right. Who could ever imagine having more than 64,000 rows, it's just inconceivable or 250 columns or whatever, right.? Because we hadn't allocated that. We'd made an engineering mistake, essentially, we hadn't future-proofed. So we need to make a file format change for our benefit, right. To undo one of our mistakes. And the way I looked at it was, "Ooh, all this open file format stuff, that'll be like the 'Look, squirrel!'" To distract people and to sort of justify, while we went and did this other thing, which, ultimately it actually went pretty well. The transition for the customers actually wasn't nearly as bad, because we actually Took it seriously. Rob Collie (00:46:03): The transition for the customers actually wasn't nearly as bad because we actually took it seriously. We didn't cut any corners. We did all the right things. Brian Jones (00:46:07): Well, there were several benefits too. We were talking about all the kind of ecosystem development benefits, but the fact that the file was zipped and compressed right, it meant that the thing was smaller. And that was all of a sudden, it was no longer about floppy discs. People are sharing files on networks. And so actually being able to go and have a file that's easier to share, send over network because it's smaller was a thing. Brian Jones (00:46:26): There were a couple of things that we were able to go and highlight. There's also a pretty nice thing where it was actually more robust because it was XML, and we split it into multiple pieces of XML. It meant that even if you had bit rot, you would only lose one little piece of the file, whereas with old the binary format, you had some bit rot and the whole thing is impossible to open up.There are a couple of things that were in user benefits too, which helped. Rob Collie (00:46:50): And ultimately, on the Excel side, the user got a million row spreadsheet format and the ability to use a hell of a lot more than like 14 colors that could be used in a single spreadsheet or something. It was .like a power of two minus two, so many bizarre things. Like Excel had more colors than that, but you couldn't use more than a certain subset in a- Brian Jones (00:47:10): At a time, yeah. Rob Collie (00:47:10): -In a single file. So yeah, there were a lot of benefits. They just weren't- Brian Jones (00:47:15): It's not like it's an explicit choice. It's just that at the time somebody is implementing something, you're right in a way, assuming, "Oh, this is fine. This is enough. I'll never have to worry with this issue." Rob Collie (00:47:25): Why waste the whole byte on that? When you can cram four different settings into a single byte. If you read the old stories about Gates and Allen programming up at Harvard, they had these vicious head-to-head competitions to see who could write the compiler or the section of basic in the fewest bytes possible. This was still very much hanging over Microsoft, even the vestiges of it were still kind of hanging over us even when I arrived. But certainly in the '80s when the Excel file format was being designed for that rev, it was still very much like, "Why waste all those bits in a byte?" "Let's cap it at four bits". Thomas Larock (00:48:05): In that blog series from Sinofsky, he talks a lot about that at the early start. And I'm at a point now where he's talking a lot about the code reuse because the Excel team, the Word team, I guess PowerPoint, but all these other teams, were all dealing with, say, text. And they were all doing their own code for how that text would be displayed and shown. And Bill would be the one being like, " This is ridiculous". "We should be able to reuse the code between these products". And to me, that would just be common sense. But these groups, Microsoft just grew so rapidly so quickly, they were off on their own, and they have to ship. I ain't got time to wait around for this, for somebody to build an API, things like that. I'll just write it myself. Brian Jones (00:48:50): It's a general thing that you get as you get larger where the person in charge that can oversee everything is like, "Well, these are all my resources", and, "Wow, I don't want three groups all building the same thing". But then when you get down, there's also a reality of we're just going to have a very different view on text and text layout than Excel. And Excel is not going to say, "I want all of that code that Word uses to lay out all of their content to be running for every single cell". Right? That's just suboptimal. And so it's always this fun conversation back and forth around where do you have shared code and reuse and where do you say it's okay for this specific app to have this more optimized thing that might look the same, but in reality, it's not really the same. Rob Collie (00:49:33): Brian, do you remember the ... I'm sure you do, but I don't remember what company they were from. But at one point in this file format effort, these really high priced consultants showed up and went around and interviewed us a couple of times. Do you remember that phase? It was like- Brian Jones (00:49:51): Was that towards the end? There was a couple summary stories that were pulled together just to talk about the overall processes. It was actually after the standardization. Rob Collie (00:49:58): I remember this being at the point in time where it was still kind of a question. whether we should do it. Brian Jones (00:50:02): I don't remember that. Rob Collie (00:50:04): The thing I remember really vividly is a statement that Chris Pratley would make over and over again, this encapsulated it for me. I came around to seeing it his way, which was the file format isn't the thing. That's not the moat. The thing that makes Office unique is the behaviors of the application. It's not the noun of the file format. It's the verb of what happens in the app. It's instructed to think that even if you took exactly the Excel team today, every single person that's already worked on it, and said, "Hey, you have to go rebuild Excel exactly". There's no way that version of Excel would be compatible with the one we have now. It would drift so much. Rob Collie (00:50:43): You could even have access to all the same specs. We would even cheat and say, "Look, you can have access to every single spec ever written". So? It was clearly someone had thought it was time to bring in like a McKinsey. They were all well dressed. They were all attractive. They were all a little too young to be the ones sort of making these decisions. It was just really weird to have them show up, three people in your office. Like, "Okay, I'll tell you what's going on". Brian Jones (00:51:11): I can totally imagine. It's funny I don't remember that. There were several rounds of analysis on how we were doing it, what we're doing and making sure we were doing it the right way. But yeah, Chris is spot on. I mean, your point about rebuilding it, that's essentially what we've been going through for the past five plus years around our web app. It's a lot of work. Unfortunately, we can't let it drift. The expectation from everybody is, "Hey, I learned the Wind 32 version. When I go to the web, I want it to feel the same. I don't want to feel like I'm now using some different app." Rob Collie (00:51:44): What an amazing, again, like a Manhattan project type of thing, this notion of rewriting Excel to run on the web and be compatible. Brian Jones (00:51:55): Yeah, with 30 years of innovation. Rob Collie (00:51:56): Yeah. That started in the 2007 release. Excel services, the first release of Excel services was 2007. And this whole thing about shared code, like what features, what functions of Excel, what pieces of it were going to be rewritten to be quote unquote "shared code"? And shared code meant it was actually server safe, which none of regular desktop Excel written in the early '80s, still carrying around assembly in certain places, assembly code of all things, right? Excel was not server safe. It was about as far from server safe as you could get. And so to rewrite this so ambitious without breaking anything. Oh my God. What a massive ... This dates back, gosh, more than 15 years. Brian Jones (00:52:45): Yeah. I'd say like the first goals around it were a bit different, right? It wasn't a web version of Excel. It was like BI scenarios and how can we have dashboards and Excel playing a role in dashboards. But yeah, I'd say since I joined, it was probably maybe a half a year or a year into when I joined, we just made the decision to shift a huge chunk of our funding to the web app. It was just clear that we need to make even more rapid progress. If you go, we have a site where you can go and see all the features that are rolling out there. It's incredible. And it's just because of the depth of the product. "Wow that's so many features you've done. You must be almost done". But then you look at everything else that's still isn't done yet. Brian Jones (00:53:23): Now thankfully, we're getting to the point where we can look at telemetry and say, "Hey, we've got most people covered." Most users, when we look at what they do in Windows, they could use the web app and shouldn't notice a difference. But there still is a set of things that we're going to keep churning through. So that'll continue to be a huge, huge investment for us. But yeah, the shared code strategy, we have an iPhone version, an iPad version an Android version. We've got Excel across all platforms. And because of the shared code, when we add new features, the feature crew that's working on that, they need to have a plan for how they're going to roll out across all those platforms, clearly levered shared code. But they also need to think through user experience and stuff like that too. Clearly a feature on a phone is going to behave differently than it's going to behave on a desktop. Rob Collie (00:54:05): Part of me, just like, kind of wants to just say, "I don't even believe that you've pulled that off, there's no way". It's kind of like, I've never looked at the Android version, and until I look at the Android version, I'm just going to assume it's not real. This is why it's one of the hardest things imaginable to have a single code base with all these different user experience, just fundamental paradigms of difference between these platforms. Like really? Come on. Brian Jones (00:54:34): It was a massively ambitious project. Mac shifted over maybe three years ago. And that's when, all of a sudden, in addition to a bunch of just features that people have been asking for that we'd never been able to get to, the massive one there was we were able to roll out the co-authoring multiplayer mode for Excel. Rob Collie (00:54:50): Multiplayer. Brian Jones (00:54:52): That's the term I like for co-authoring. It's more fun. Rob Collie (00:54:55): Yeah. It's like MMO for spreadsheets. Brian Jones (00:54:57): Yes. We were able to get that for the Mac. I mean, all of our platforms. One of us can be on an iPad, an iPhone, the web app, and we'll all see what we're doing in real time, making edits and all of that stuff. That alone, if you want to talk about massive projects, 30 years of features and innovation, basically that means we had to go and teach Excel how to communicate to another version of Excel and be very specific about, "This is what I did." "Here's the action I took." And that is massive. There are thousands and thousands of things you can do in the product. So getting it so that all of those versions are in sync the entire time, and so we're all seeing the exact same results of calc and all of that. That itself was a huge, massive project. Rob Collie (00:55:37): Take this as the highest form of praise when I say I don't buy it. I can't believe it. Brian Jones (00:55:44): I hope everybody's okay that we just talked for like an hour on just like listening to somebody at a high school reunion, I think, or something. Is this like me talking about how great I played in that one game? And you're like, "Yeah, that was a great basket". Rob Collie (00:55:54): Yeah. "Man, my jumper was on". the thing that's hard to appreciate, I think, is that you got to come back to the fact that we're talking about the tools that everyone in the world uses every day, that we rely on. And I think being gone from Microsoft for the last 12 years, I'm able to better appreciate that sense of wonder. This isn't just you and I catching up, I don't think. People enjoy, for good reason I think, hearing the stories of how these things came to be. People don't know by default how hard it was to get to a million rows in the file format. If you're like a robot, you're like, "I don't care how I got here. I just care what it is", then you're not listening to this show. We call it data with a human element. Robots can exit stage left. I think you should feel zero guilt. This isn't just self-indulgence. Brian Jones (00:56:55): Well, on the off chance everybody else ... I've listened to a lot of Rob's other podcasts, and they're awesome. So if you're bored with this one, it's okay. Go check out some of the other ones. They'r

Recorded live on Thursday 13th May 2021. A new episode of SHU Football Forum, hosted by Joseph Hadfield, Josh Chapman and Connor Thorpe. The boys review Derby v Sheff Wed and Sheff Wed's relegation to League 1, featuring Dan McGrath to give the Derby viewpoint, as well as Sheff Utd v Crystal Palace. They also look at the Championship play-offs, with special guest Lewis Robinson discussing Barnsley's chances against Swansea, the League 1 play-offs, with special guest Andy Gordon giving his thoughts on Sunderland against Lincoln, and the League 2 play-offs. Plus there's a shorter round of 'Unpredictable', a vital local round-up and the pub quiz.

Today, people around the globe—from teachers to small-business owners to finance executives—use Microsoft Excel to make sense of the information that occupies their respective worlds, and whether they realize it or not, in doing so, they’re taking on the role of programmer. In this episode, Senior Principal Research Manager Andy Gordon, who leads the Calc Intelligence team at Microsoft Research, and Senior Principal Researcher Simon Peyton Jones provide an inside account of the journey Excel has taken as a programming language, including the expansion of data types that has unlocked greater functionality and the release of the LAMBDA function, which makes the Excel formula language Turing-complete. They’ll talk specifically about how research has influenced Excel and vice versa, programming as a human-computer interaction challenge, and a future in which Excel is the first language for budding programmers and a tool for incorporating probabilistic reasoning into our decision-making. https://www.microsoft.com/research

Andy Gordon and Sean O'Reilly discuss March 15th's Reg CF raise max increase from $1.07M to $5M

Andy Gordon and Sean O'Reilly discuss March 15th's Reg CF raise max increase from $1.07M to $5M

Andy Gordon joins Sean to discuss his career as a international entrepreneur and developments in the crowdfunding market.

Andy Gordon joins Sean to discuss his career as a international entrepreneur and developments in the crowdfunding market.

Andrew Gordon is a dedicated technologist leading the charge to build and connect Montana's next-generation, high growth economy to the rest of the world. He specializes in working with small and medium-sized businesses on strategic marketing, digital media, branding, and new technologies to streamline their operations and refine their growth strategies. Andrew is a graduate of the University of Montana and has a deep background in geospatial technologies (GIS). He volunteers his time as a Board Member of the Montana Ambassadors and mentoring transitioning military veterans from active duty to successful civilian careers. When he's not evangelizing Montana's entrepreneurial ecosystem, he can be found exploring the trails around Helena, MT with his wife and two children.

Andy Gordon has been through a lot and now he's helping others crush their fitness goals. Listen to Andy's story, how he's recovered both mentally and physically, and how it's affected how he approaches health & fitness   Andy lets us know what he thinks about the fitness industry as well as letting us know what he thinks of “influencers” in a game of word association.   Listen ad-free on https://thegymadvisors.ie/podcast

Episode 36: Andy McDonald chats to Physiotherapy Consultant Gordon Bosworth. Gordon is Founder and Clinical Director of The Bosworth Clinic and has been involved in elite sport for most of his life. Specialising in performance therapy, Gordon has supported elite athletes and teams across multiple sports and notably was Physiotherapist to the British Bobsleigh and Bob-Skeleton Team, a member of the Great Britain Teams at the Winter Olympic Games in Nagano, Sochi, Salt Lake City and Torino. He was also Medical Lead for the Canadian Speed Skating Team at Vancouver Games & Chief Physiotherapist to British Athletics at the London Games in 2012. More recently he worked with the Canadian #1 Women’s Bobsleigh and Cross-Country Teams at the PyeongChang Games. A clinician of great calibre and experience.  In this episode Andy & Gordon discuss:  Gordons background Effective Physiotherapy at Olympic Games Involvement with Altis Gordons Approach Understanding optimal function firstLevelling the playing the fieldStructure governs functionApproach to manual therapy Second opinion work & consultancy  Where you can find Gordon:  LinkedInTwitterWebsite  If you enjoyed this episode then check out Episode 35 with Dr Jas Randhawa Smartletics Tempo AppApple App StoreGoogle App Store Website Keep up to date with everything that is going on with the podcast by following Inform Performance on: InstagramTwitterOur Website Our Team  Andy McDonaldBen Ashworth

The second part of the discussion on Irish and Scottish influences on popular Culture. Bob Quick is once again joined by Andy Gordon, Paul Maguire Tom Sweeney and Frank Sweeney.

Andy Gordon grew up in Buffalo, and has since lived in several other rust belt cities. As an expat himself, he's helping to develop a network of Buffalo expats that still wish to make an impact on our entrepreneurial ecosystem from a far. He's also the author of a new book, New Grit, Startups in America's Comeback Cities. As he puts it, "This book is about foundations."

Bob Quick is joined by Andy Gordon, Paul Maguire Tom Sweeney and Frank Sweeney to discuss the Irish and Scottish influences on popular Culture.

Bob Quick, Andy Gordon and Frank Sweeney discuss the effect that Brexit could have on both Northern Ireland and Scotland

Bob Quick, Andy Gordon and Frank Sweeney continue their discussion on identity in Northern Ireland and what can be done to bring communities together.

Bob Quick, Andy Gordon and Frank Sweeney return to discuss identity within the context of Northern Ireland

Bob Quick, Andy Gordon and Frank Sweeney discuss how culture and religion are interlinked in Northern Ireland.

Bob Quick, Andy Gordon and Frank Sweeney discuss culture in Northern Ireland.

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG and the final pack of the elemental cycle, Elements Unbound. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG and review the All and Nothing pack from the Elemental Cycle Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh and Andy Gordon discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG and the newest pack from the Elemental Cycle. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh and Andy Gordon discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG and the newest pack The Fires Within Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the Tainted Lands, the latest pack for the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh and Andy Gordon discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard review the latest pack from the L5R LCG, the Phoenix clan pack, Disciples of the Void. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the Paris Kotei and latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard reflect on the Imperial Cycle of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard review the latest L5R LCG Dynasty Pack Meditations on the Ephemeral Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG including the Clan Packs announcement Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest L5R dynasty pack in the Imperial Cycle, Fate has No Secrets. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the dynasty pack The Chrysanthemum Throne. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the Madrid Grand Kotei Results. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the upcoming dynasty pack "Into the Forbidden City" Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the most recent dynasty pack "For Honor and Glory". Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the results from the Grand Kotei at PAX in Philadelphia. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Justin's Decklist - https://fiveringsdb.com/strains/13e33bbb-b5d8-11e7-8e3c-8e1ccf16fca4/view Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Andy is a coach, a consultant, and a creator who is going through an amazing transition in life. Setting aside his coaching career for the time being, he revisited his dreams when he was younger. He went out of his comfort zone and entered the unfamiliar world of music, photography, and film. Surely, he has found happiness and fulfillment in this new path. "I’m actually seeking out things that are stretching my comfort zone.” This episode talks about his journey in finding his passion while leaving behind what’s comfortable for him. He encourages everyone to do what they want in life and to do them not for others but for themselves. It is not wrong to start something different because as long as your heart is in it, it will always draw a smile on your face. "The biggest issue that I see is people doing it for others and not themselves.” He recounts his experiences after becoming homeless and how he overcame that misery. He realized that looking into the bigger picture of life while appreciating little things can bring happiness. At the end of the episode, he gives an inspiring message for all the life athletes on how to win in life.   “If you’re going to do anything, be on top of it.” Just do what you love and enjoy life!

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard work through the process of building a Scorpion deck from scratch. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Legend of the Five Rings designer Brad Andres joins the usual crew: Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard to chat about the design process of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Andy Gordon, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG, focusing on the Phoenix clan. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/i...

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - @imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imper…d1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG, including revealing a new card "Pilgrimage", also includes bonus beaver facts. Visit the Site - imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - @imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imper…d1233996425?mt=2

Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard discuss the latest news of the L5R LCG. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

We got D.G. Laderoute, author of the first fiction for the new Legend of the Five Rings setting, to join us for a chat about the new setting, the writing process, story prizes, Doji Hotoru, and Fumio the cat. Read more from Dave - https://www.wattpad.com/user/dgladeroute Read the story he mentions "The Flowers, The Snow" by Nancy Sauer and Fred Wan - http://www.kazenoshiro.com/kazenoshiro/8/h8e03p60.php Fumio the cat's card - http://i.imgur.com/1E3SGVB.png The usual suspects Colm "Colabear" Brophy, Eoin "Hida O-Win" Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry "Bazleebub" Sheppard are all involved. Visit the Site - http://imperialadvisor.com Watch live on Twitch - http://twitch.tv/imperialadvisor Follow on Twitter - http://twitter.com/imperialadvisor Like of Facebook - http://facebook.com/imperialadvisor Listen on SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/imperialadvisor Subscribe on iTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/imperial-advisor/id1233996425?mt=2

In this deep dive episode with Andy Gordon, he got real about his personal journey from drugs, alcohol, crime and near suicide, to creating a life of personal empowerment and making a stand for people to live their truth. We talk about the difference between "being positive" and empowering yourself and how getting REAL about what's going on in your life is the key to creating the changes you want. Andy's honesty, heart, and unconditional stand for people being ALL of who they are, is so refreshing.

In this deep dive episode with Andy Gordon, he got real about his personal journey from drugs, alcohol, crime and near suicide, to creating a life of personal empowerment and making a stand for people to live their truth. We talk about the difference between "being positive" and empowering yourself and how getting REAL about what's going on in your life is the key to creating the changes you want. Andy's honesty, heart, and unconditional stand for people being ALL of who they are, is so refreshing.

The very first episode of Imperial Advisor the Legend of the Five Rings LCG show recorded on Monday 1st May. With Colm “Colabear” Brophy, Eoin “Hida O-Win” Burke, Justin Walsh, Andy Gordon and Barry “Bazleebub” Sheppard discussing all the latest news from FFG about the L5R LCG.

Andy Gordon was ready to end his life, when he had an epiphany that changed it all. He cleaned up his act, and now helps his clients transform their lives as well. 

It's First Week at UBC, with an exuberant bass-lovin' DJ playing RIGHT outside the studio. Apparently our soundproofing is not perfect.. So sorry for any exceptional buzzing you might hear tonight!I was pleased to welcome Andy Gordon, who hails from Kangaroo Bay, NSW, Australia. We had a great chat and heard some tunes from his latest album "New Albion". Prepared to be schooled on colonial Australian history! Hope you enjoyed tonight's show, and feel free to get in touch. I'd love to hear from you! cheers, valfolkoasis@gmail.com

Andy Gordon – Investment Director here at Early Investing talks about his life in business and his vision for helping our readers profit from the brave new world of early stage equity investing.