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The Most Horse-Powerful Podcast On The Internet, The Xbox Drive is back with Episode 201. This week Sean played The Ascent. Ryan played Friday The 13th. Cleaning the GarageIf you like what we do, support the Show. Subscribe to YouTube.com/YouMeCapriYou can get early access and exclusive content at Patreon.com/YouMeCapri. The PlaylistRyan: The Ascent, Friday The 13thSean: The Ascent Braking News TOP STORY: Halo Infinite's bots are teabagging real players, and it's hilarioushttps://www.windowscentral.com/halo-infinites-bots-are-teabagging-real-players-and-its-hilarious Halo Infinite beta: 5 things you might have missed. Weapons have damage types. Some weapons have alternate firing modes. You (mostly) can't camp weapon spawns. You can drop weapons for teammates. Maps have alternate versions. https://www.windowscentral.com/halo-infinite-beta-5-things-you-might-have-missed Launching on Game Pass Helps Ascent Reach Record Sales Success. The Publisher “Curve” has announced that The Ascent earned more than $5 million in sales on its opening weekend. https://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-ascent-made-over-5-million-in-sales-on-its-first-weekend/1100-6494773/ Microsoft has announced a new special-edition Xbox Series X|S controller with a pretty blue finish. The Aqua Shift Special Edition controller has a prismatic paint job that shines in the light. It's available for preorder now and will be available starting August 31.https://www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/new-xbox-series-x-aqua-shift-controller-up-for-preorder/1100-6494702/ MLB The Show 21 was noted as a key contributor to significantly increase sales and profit during Q1.https://twitter.com/MatPiscatella/status/1422902239702618120?s=20 The following games are coming to Xbox Game Pass:Curse of the Dead Gods - August 5thDodgeball Academia - August 5thKatamari Damacy Reroll - August 5thLumines Remastered - August 5thSkate - August 5thStarmancer (PC) - August 5thDirt 4 - August 10thDirt Rally - August 10thDirt Rally 2.0 - August 10thF1 2020 - August 10thGrid - August 10thArt of Rally - August 12thHades - August 13thMicrosoft Solitaire Collection: Premium Edition - August 17th 12 Minutes - August 19thThe following games are leaving Xbox Game Pass on August 15th: Grand Theft Auto V (August 8th)Ape OutCrossing SoulsDarksiders GenesisDon't StarveFinal Fantasy VIITrain Sim World 2020https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2021/08/03/coming-soon-xbox-game-pass-august-2021/Forza Motorsport 7 will be delisted on September 15th, 2021. The game will see a permanent sale until it's removed from the store.https://support.forzamotorsport.net/hc/en-us/articles/4404442728339-End-of-Life-for-Forza-Motorsport-7-Marvel's Avengers' War for Wakanda expansion will officially launch as a free update on August 17th! It'll feature an 8 hour campaign, new villains, environments and of course, Black Panther as a new playable character. https://www.ign.com/articles/marvels-avengers-war-for-wakanda-release-date-black-pantherThe Carpool - follow on Twitter, leave a comment on YouTube, or join the Discord to leave a question and be part of the show. Dan @dannoh12 - do you guys ever just look at your backlog of games and go, “yea, i might not even bother with you at all”?? also…(don't know if it's been asked before) was there ever a game you're relieved you didn't get/play due to bad reception??WilliamOutbreak (Discord) - One question that keeps circling my mind, especially with Halo all over my social feeds, is do you think that one game came be enough to sell you on a game console? Not sure if you've answered this in the past, but I know for me back in the day Halo was a major factor in me getting an Xbox 360 instead of PS3.Todd Oxtra @toxtra - So Ryan wasn't excited about a dead space remake, so what remakes do you both want?Eric Cave (YouTube) - My first destination in Flight Simulator was my neighborhood, which was so much fun. I am super excited about the upcoming Maverick DLC. What do you guys think this DLC content will include? I am intrigued by the devs comments about looking forward to some surprises by this DLC. What do you think those could be? Could there be dogfighting, or are we simply going to get to fly some very fast planes while trying to land them on an aircraft carrier?PlugsiTunes: https://goo.gl/CMv4frSpotify: https://goo.gl/Vh4DH4YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/youmecapriSean:http://twitter.com/seancaprihttp://twitch.tv/seancaprihttp://patreon.com/youmecapriRyan:http://twitter.com/ryanturfordhttp://youtube.com/ryanturfordhttp://twitch.tv/ryanturfordDiscord [You, Me & Capri]:https://discord.gg/zN4cZbA

In this episode, Ryan Porter with Next Home Realty Experience tells us what we should know about investing in Jackson real estate. Learn about the particularities of the market, return metrics, the school zones, taxes, common problems, and what you need to do to win in this hot market. Ryan Porter: RyanPorterhomes@gmail.com. 601-238-6620 --- Transcript Michael: Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the remote real estate investor. My name is Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by my colleague, Mark whittling. And we're going to be chatting with an agent out of Jackson, Mississippi. Ryan Porter. local guy knows a lot about the market and is just killing it out there. So let's jump into it with Ryan and learn a little bit more about the Jackson Mississippi market.   Alrighty, Ryan Porter out of Jackson, Mississippi, how you doing, man?   Ryan: Man doing great. So glad you guys could invite me on the show.   Michael: No, we're happy to have you and thanks for taking the time. Really appreciate it.   So let's just jump right into it. Man, you are a Jackson, Mississippi born and raised?   Ryan: Born and raised Rankin County just out of the Jackson area and lived here all my life.   Michael: Awesome. And I'm curious, how did you first get into the real estate game.   Ryan: So a friend of mine gave a book to me around Christmas Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And I'm sure a lot of people got into real estate with that book. And I bought in hook line and sinker several, several years ago. And it was one book led to another and I just never stopped. I've been scratching and calling ever since. And it's been a really, really cool, fun ride.   Michael: That's awesome. I think so many people share that similar experience. I know I did for with Rich Dad, Poor Dad. I just kind of smacked me upside the head. And I was like, Man, what have I been doing up till now?   Ryan: Right?   Michael: It takes just simple book to figure it out and explain it to me.   Ryan: They tried to tell us with monopoly, but we had to be pointed out it's   Michael: Right. Right, right. So you're an agent, you're a property manager, you're an investor. Talk to us a little bit about all the things that you're working on.   Ryan: So last year, I teamed up with a next home franchise and started a brokerage here in Brandon. We've got 22 agents. Now we teach a lot of investing class. That's a lot my background. And a lot of our agents are invested minded. We teach how to we'll do field trips on newer agents to show them how to video a house for someone that's out of town, how to work with clients, they'll never see that house.   So they'll have that special skill set to be able to point out potential problems going down the road, or a potential problem right now it says hey, this is just not a good fit for out of town, this house may need a lot of maintenance, something like that. We want to teach those agents. So we've, we've started that with next home, we've really had a lot of success, we've got a lot of really killer agents.   With our property management. I've teamed up with one of my high school friends that we've remained friends throughout our life, he's got his real estate license with us it next time we started a broker, Property Management Division. Super excited about next rental we used to build software we spent several several months doing our homework on property management, probably another year, doing our personal properties and just our local friends and acquaintances properties to where we felt comfortable. Okay, we could pretty much take anything on, we've seen so much within the last three years of running property management that it's just a really fun job for certain people.   Our employees we have, they love their relationships with the tenants, we've learned that if you can get that right tenant and teach them how to take care of a home in a way that we're not just putting them in a rental home, we want to show them how to take care of a home because one day they're gonna buy a home and we want to be there with them, potentially maybe buy that home. So that'll give a win win win to everybody, the people renting the home and the investors.   Mark: This is the story how I connected with Ryan. I saw he was an educator because one of his agents named Bo was all over whether real estate investor Facebook groups. So I reached out I said, Hey, Bo, I really like what you're working on. Who do you work for? Tell me a little bit about you. So he said, so I told him about the certified agent network. And next thing you know, we're connecting with Ryan. And Ryan is just as you can see an educator. He's the kind of guy who's got the experience so he can walk the walk talk the talk at the same time.   But we asked him to be a part of the certified agent network because we knew he had the educator approach and that's what our buyers are really looking for. So you know when they they can talk to an agent and have that ability to connect virtually and not have to you know pony up, side to side. You know, they could do it the way that they feel comfortable. So we knew is a natural fit to bring them into the certified agent network. And that's where we're going today. So Ryan's been successful and just watching him kind of grow and do his own thing has been awesome because he doesn't need training on our side, he just walked in said, I got this and got a ton of properties under contract already. Ryan: Mark, when I didn't know a whole lot about Roofstock when you came to me, but when I got the link to the university, I was just blown away how you guys had taken everything to do with investing from day one to closing day to, whatever and put it in the format that you did, where it really broke down and investor, let them know what they were getting into told them. And I just like this is how I like to do business, we want to educate our investors where they're making smart choices. That way, they will make money, and we will make money and everybody will be happy.   So I really loved the way you guys have built your format. If I was an investor just starting out or whatnot, you just can't beat the training that you guys have thought of everything on how to pick your property manager. That is such a huge, huge chapter. Because that property managers everything buying a house, that's simple. I can point you to 15 houses tomorrow and Jackson that you could get a 25% cash on cash return. But unless you've got somebody to manage that property, well, that's going to drop down to 12 really quick.   So I love how you guys have built the templates on how to ask those questions. And we're starting to see that as we're working with these investors. They are very knowledgeable they've been through they know the questions to ask. So I love working with experienced people. I love working with anybody I love teaching, like you said, but it does make it easy when these investors know what they're doing, because they've been through your portal. And they know what smart questions to ask.   Michael: As you say, as soon as we get off this call, we're gonna we're gonna go look at some of those 25% cash on cash return properties Ryan!   So, Ryan, I love that you talked about making that partnership with kind of a win win win with the education side, both for the investor owner as well as for the tenant because I think so often there's this almost adversarial relationship where owners see the tenants as the enemy and the tenancy the owner as the big bad landlord, but you're kind of breaking down those barriers. And it sounds like having a lot of success, fostering some great relationships.   And you know, it's not that hard to do. Honestly, at the end of the day, people want a nice place to stay, they wanted to be treated, right? We try to pick nice houses that we try to get those items taken care of a before they buy the houses in inspection, have a house rent ready, somebody can move into it and not really have any problems. If something pops up, just take care of it as simple as that those people are happy. it's not rocket science to have a good property management company. It is rocket science to have everything organized, where you can provide that quick response time. So you can answer when they do call. That's all they want. Is anybody wants is somebody to hear what they have to say and fix it.   Michael: I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Because I agree, I don't think it I don't think it's rocket science. But I think anybody who's been in this business long enough as an investor has come across their fair share of really poor property managers or property managers that they don't want to work with again. So what in your estimation separates the really great property managers from the less than great property managers?   Ryan: I think the biggest thing would be communication. If you can get somebody on the phone, you can usually get an answer. That's been the biggest thing that I've heard when somebody said, I can't get ahold of my property manager. It's been a week. I'm like, what I don't understand that is 2021. Everybody's glued to their phone, that person was ignoring that call. So if you're ignoring somebody call, you're usually hiding something. So that goes back. I think if you're communicating with everybody, everybody's on the same page, then there's really no confusion. And as long as somebody is just not acting a fool, what you do run into people like that you try to screen them out. things do happen, people lose their job, but there again, I tell that person, I don't care what you're going through. You text and tell me every single day if you're going to be late or whatnot, but I need to have that communication. Once that stops. That's when we'll start assuming and and that's not good. And I asked my ex girlfriends that assuming stuff is not good.   Michael: No, I love I love that. I think it makes a lot of sense because I think you're for me anyhow, that I would agree makes a really great property manager. If there's bad news, call me Tell me Don't let out about a week   Ryan: Yeah that's a house, you know, we can fix it. When it boils down to it, there's not much a house can tear. I will say that there is, but just communicate it and fix it. There's an answer to everything.   Mark: I got a quick question for you in Jackson, Mississippi. I mean, you're in the south, it's hot. But you know, here I am. in Dallas, Texas, we have foundation issues and something that not all investors really know about. What do investors need to know in Jackson that are the big, the big risks that you're always call it out and making sure buyers just know before they get into a property?   Ryan: Just know. Yep. So if a house has Foundation, or has had Foundation, and we get somebody that bids on it, I like to call that person in, I want to talk to that investor and just let them know, because I understand in Arizona, their dirt may not settle. And they don't even know what a foundation problem is probably like, I don't know what a basement flood issue would look like. I've never seen a house being a basement.   So with Mississippi, we all are in that delta type. swamp land, I guess you would say. So we've got a lot of dirt here, there's just not great. Now, as a builder, when they're building a home, they'll take all that bad dirt out, packs nice, fresh dirt in, pack it down. And they're supposed to give so many feet. But unfortunately, 20 30, 40 years ago, they didn't have those rules, it was a little bit of the Wild West. So you can have literally a neighborhood that had this builder build this house, and this joker did great work, he was proud of his work, this house would never have foundation problems, the drainage is well around the house, the water's not coming against the house, the house next door, this builder came in and threw it up didn't care about his drainage, the level of the house may be off might be the low down the block. He's probably if he's not had foundation problems he's going to so we want to avoid the house that has any drainage problems around it.   That being said, you can have a house that's had foundation problems that's been repaired, and that house be just fine, the drainage has been fixed. Whatever that builder did has been fixed, we've got nice pilings, a lifetime warranty. Still, as an investor, I'm not going to recommend any house that could even potentially give foundation problems. To me, that's the worst mistake, that's the death zone. If it's potentially gonna have a river going around it, that will just wash that dirt right out from under the slab. And that's just no good for anybody. So foundation is something that I think is where you need the boots on the ground to go view these houses to look at their past look at the neighbor's house to see if they've had foundation problems. See maybe if you can find who built that house. And that type thing.   So it's it's house to house but foundation problems are huge, huge thing that we look at when we're looking at a house and different areas are a little worse than air others. And older homes are a little worse than the newer homes. That being said some of the newer homes built in certain areas do do have some problems.   Mark Yeah, I think it's a great point to look at the neighbor's house because it may not be your drainage issue is theirs, but it becomes your problem. Right?   Ryan: That's right. And just little things like that tree overgrown and leaves falling down, getting in the way of that drainage. So trying to spot those problems. Even if I try to assume that our renters are not going to rake the yards, I just assumed the worst that the leaves will fall they'll cut them with their lawn more when it's summertime. So if there's a a French drain that needs to be raked out once a month to keep this house from having foundation problems, that's not going to be a good rental home, that's going to be a good home for a person to move into that's going to take care of that home to keep that stuff because that's his investment. So those are things with foundation. We're very very careful when we get involved with something like that.   Michael: Are there other things Ryan that are specific to Mississippi That you see as very common issues that maybe to a California or to a Texas investor might be a big deal, but they just are regularly occurring issues that you tackle no issue maybe like moisture intrusion or warping. I don't know something to that effect.   Ryan: Yeah, I think foundation would be the biggest issue. We have a little bit of mold. Sometimes I don't run across that very often. If so, it's on where the outside rooms or whatnot. air conditioners are a huge deal here. They're usually ran from March till probably sometimes in December. So almost year round, people are going to use their air conditioner. The air conditioner lifecycle is probably, if you get a new air conditioner in take care of it had it serviced once a year, you can get 10 to 13 years out of the air conditioner. Still, sometimes, you know, you'll have that's a big service call is air or air conditioners, yeah, usually, January, February or March, we're going to get a call. And when it gets really to that 105 degree days, it's hard to get a house down to 72 degrees sometimes if it's not insulated just right,  if it's an older home.   So we try to prep people as part of our move in when Bo brings a new client in utility and explain to them about the air conditioner that you know this is not a brand new home, it's probably not going to get 62 degrees if it's 100 outside and explain how to change the air filters to keep it at that lowest point. So air conditioners and foundations. I think that's our two biggest things. roofs are just pretty normal everywhere. We do have tornadoes, or hail storms a bit bit. There's just nothing you can do about that.   Michael: I love that question mark because so I bought a property a triplex up in Alaska years ago. And I used to work as a fire protection engineer. And I went up there and I was up there for work. And I was looking at the property and the agent was showing me around and he says, Oh yeah, and here's the fuel tank for the diesel fired boiler that's in the basement. I was like, What? There's no way we're having diesel fuel sitting by this property?   And he goes, No, no, like, that's what people do here. And so coming not being a local, you don't know. And so that's, I think, a really great question. And a really great talking point is you might see that and think Yep, not gonna touch it. But that's just par for the course in that market. So understanding those types of things, I think is huge.   Ryan: Absolutely.   Michael: Can you talk to us a little bit Ryan about kind of the numbers as an investor so if I'm an investor looking into the Jackson market, from a purchase perspective, on average three to you know, not the main, you know, into different neighborhoods, maybe talk to us what the purchase price map and what might some of the rents might look like as well.   Ryan: We've got two or three in the Florence areas, little suburb blocks south of Jackson, when you get out probably, I'm going to say the really good schools zones in Rankin County, you'll see anywhere from 150 to 200,000 that's kind of where I guess I like to be I think a lot investors like to be around at 150 to 200,000, 2-3 with a  garage, a nice 1015 year old home that's similar dated or this move in ready. We'd like to see anywhere from 1500 on the 150 up to around 200 like to get around 1850   Michael: Awesome so we're kind of flirting alright that 1%   Ryan: Yep, yep, absolutely. In this market you know that i think that's that's very decent. You know, a year and a half ago, we were getting a lot better numbers. Houses are just bring in maximum value right now. But also, renters are easy to get to there's not a shortage of renters went through our app out it's usually taken snatched up pretty quick.   Michael: You beat me to the punch. I was just gonna ask both on the purchase side and on the leasing side. How quickly Are you seeing things move?   Ryan: Yeah, they move quick. People are complaining people are getting beat out of leases. I got a call this morning run up, tried for leases on my own. I need help finding a rental home. He was just out applying on his own off of Zillow or whatnot. And it's not like it used to be used to you could look at your phone, dial that number and go rent that home and there wasn't a line now it's apartments are booked up. Houses are pretty booked up. It's It's hard to get a house in any fashion right now.   Mark: What I like about the Jackson market is you really have three big counties Heinz, which is really where Jackson is out east is Rankin, and up north is Madison. And they all have different personalities. And so maybe Ryan give us a little idea of what you're going to get with each of those and you know, how the schools are compared and just overall cost of living.   Ryan: So, starting in Jackson, I love I own a few. That's where I started my investing was often McDowell road. Great spot, I used to cruise up and down and when I was a kid, the numbers are great in that area. The last house I bought was around $40,000. And I've got a nice $850 renter, the area, you know it's hit or miss. As far as street to street, you may have this street, it's a little bit abandoned house abandoned house, you know, you don't want to really be around a lot of abandoned houses in any market.   So I try to go to the upcoming streets, one that I may see a couple for sale signs on that's a good sign those houses are about to probably get rehabbed. So we really try to go select right there, northeast Jackson's a little bit harder market to get into, it's a great flip area, a great way to do a BRRRRs up did a few BRRRR in that area, the numbers just match up. If you're set with a lender to get a free home may not have gotten a few of them. You get up so I like to BRRRR the Northeast Jackson area.   Rankin it's a great school zone. The public schools are great. The housing is around $200,000. You can find nice deals around 130 to 150. Sometimes, and those you want to scoop up quick because if it's in that school zone, there's demand for it. Every school zone he can in Rankin County, it seems like there's a demand for housing for rental housing in that area.   And Madison, it's a little bit higher in homes, you do get a lot better rants in that area out that county, it's a little bit stricter on their landlord policies, you have to apply for a permit different, just different loopholes that we jumped through, though and help you jump through. It's a great market, though, that you're going to see in Rankin and Madison, that's when you'll really start seeing your investment long term for when you want to sell that home, you'll get a great return, the housing really has skyrocketed.   Several the areas are just moved to USDA financing. And just that area alone when you go from FHA, VA USDA, and now that opens up for a buyer to get 100% financing. That just opens the market up to so many more people in this area. Because in Jackson, in Mississippi as a whole there are a whole lot of people with approval letters, but not a whole lot of people with 3% downpayment in their checking account. So having that USDA having a home when I'm an investor, I look at several different things. So I want to see if I can find the area that may be coming up for USDA soon, our buyers in that area, those houses are definitely going to be worth more in three years or four years, I can put a renter in it, let him pay my note for a little while, make some money, and watch that house really, really appreciate. So that's one thing we're watching for in the Madison area right now is that USDA, they're doing a few things.   Michael: What great insight, Ryan, I mean, it reminds me almost like an opportunity zone. It's these geographic areas that are now getting opened up to additional investment that wasn't there previously. I think that's awesome. I think that's awesome.   Mark: So when one thing that I want to point out, not only to the listeners, but you know, to this group, you know, Ryan's actually picking a lot of properties that are going on the Roofstock select program, which is you know, he his hand picked a good number of those and he's the one running the numbers from a rental perspective and then the rehab. And then he's pushing those through if he thinks it's a good investment property.   So maybe Ryan Give, give the listeners a little idea about what you're looking for that you feel is kind of that that opportunity that other investors maybe aren't seeing? Because you know, these are on the market MLS properties that are in our select program. So there's a lot of eyeballs on those properties. So what are you looking for That maybe you can give a little explanation to our buyers about.   Ryan: So when we're looking in MLS a, I want to see the houses that just hit I want to be the first one to get it out, well you guys can see it before right now there's going to be multiple offers usually on a reasonably priced house, and especially if it's in a very good schools zone.With that we want speed, we want to get it on as quick as possible. And we want numbers to be accurate. Also, Bo, and I like to get on our phone late at night. And we'll tag team and we'll go over each address and look at that house, we'll look through each of the pictures, we'll come up with a repair by budget based off for what we can see.   And then also we'll both check the rental rates, we want to both do our own compare at the end. And usually we can take a property from when we first start looking at it to when we hit publish, it's gonna take us 10 minutes to go through the taxes and whatnot, we're gonna we're not just going through slapping houses on we really want to be exact, because I understand as an investor, I'm a huge BiggerPockets guy, huge BiggerPockets, calculator, I'm a numbers freak, I want to see how those numbers line up. And if those numbers aren't, right, that's a big deal.   If I tell you, you can get 1500 but you get down here and can't find anybody. But for 1400 I just blew your whole plan out of whack. I don't want to be that guy. So we want to make sure that and a lot of times we undercut for that reason, I don't want to tell people that and expect more. But whenever I'm running my numbers on anything, I like to undercut you know, and overdeliver so when we put a property on there, we're very certain we can get that rent for that property. Well, we've looked into it.   And then once somebody is serious about it puts an offer we're gonna go out and look at the property do a nice video posted on YouTube, send it out to the buyer. And when we do that we're actually looking at that house just to confirm Okay, we can get this for this house we've looked at the area have looked at the neighborhood that's part of our inspection process. We're not just hiring that inspector in that first 10 days to go inspect that house we're also inspecting the house just to make sure it's a good deal for our investors.   Michael: That makes a lot of sense and that's really great background to know that it's not just getting thrown up there grab that random that there is actually investors looking at this underwriting it and saying okay, we're going to stamp of approval this Can you talk to us Ryan and all of our listeners a little bit about I think something that should be on every investor's mind if it isn't but property taxes How do those look in the greater Jackson area for the different counties you have?   Ryan: So Jackson area is definitely the highest in taxes and I hear a lot of complaints honestly I think it's right you take a Jackson's are very old city and the utilities are very old it's the water problems have made national news the pipes are just to hold there's no way around it. And if you take all those pipes under all those roads, there's just no way to go in and repipe a city it's just not feasible so they're constantly patching on it and I think that's just the way it's going to be as far.   As the sewer it's kind of the same way it's it's old so we look again at house by house we're doing that it the sewer system and water system and do the best we can on that but the taxes are high for that reason, and they're probably not going down anytime soon. They're probably gonna keep rise to keep combating and investors gonna pay 1500 ish taxes in that home. The government will give you a little bit of break on your tax. Just by living in that home. It's kind of a bi sticky to the investor his taxes will be higher. But Madison's obviously the highest property values are higher in Madison. u is not a far fetched higher than Rankin. It's not as high as Hans but it is because most of the homes are valued are a little bit higher than Rankin.   Michael: So is it fair to guesstimate around one to one and a quarter percent of the purchase price if you were just doing some real quick back of the napkin math to determine what your property taxes might be.   Ryan: There again, we like to check that and each county has different ways we can check taxes Hans County, we can see the exact rate on Madison and Rankin county you can call the tax assessor's office say this is the address Can you give me them non-homestead rate for this house, get that answer pretty quick.   Michael: I love that you said that it's something that I talk about all the time in the academy is don't use the Zillow number, don't use the Redfin number because that could be the homesteaded prior value. And if it's based on purchase price, that owner is locked in. So pick up the phone call have a conversation. How do I calculate my after sale taxes as an investor?   Ryan: That's right. That's right. Just give him a call. Those ladies are happy to help.   Mark: Yeah, a lot of our listeners want to know who Ryan Porter actually is we got your investment background, but they also want to know you're married, you have kids, you have a boat you take to the reservoir because they have a pretty awesome reservoir. What what kind of fun do you have?   Ryan: Well, actually, I do have a boat. It's parked in my backyard. I live on the reservoir. I love getting on a pontoon. I had two girls, we actually spent Sunday on the water cruising around, watch the sunset. I'm not married. Married to my work. I really stayed at my computer all the time. I love getting on the road, checking the houses out. It takes a lot of my time and I'm not disappointed. My girls are my life.   Got one that's in the banking career. She's trying to get work her way up the lending ladder with a local branch and my youngest is just going into 11th grade. I'm super proud of her. She's really been my mini-me with real estate. As I was coming up through the ranks with me and my open houses, baking cookies, we would go all out she'd have a great time.   Michael: That's great.   Mark: So she looks at you as the rich, the rich dead. she's she's listening. She's watching. She's learning. That's great. That's all possible. That's, that's important. Yeah, we want to get to know that the ryan that's, you know, behind the scenes, because, you know, we work hard but important to play hard to. So that's, that's awesome.   Michael: I love that. Ryan, if folks have additional questions for you want to reach out to you directly? What's the best way for them to do that? Get a hold of you.   Ryan: So my cell phone or email, like I said, it's 2021 it's always beside me. My cell phone 601-238-6620 text or call. If you call us leave a voicemail? Chances are I'll probably have to get back to you or email. Check it pretty much regular throughout the day at RyanPorterhomes@gmail.com.   Michael: Awesome. Awesome. Well Mark, any final questions or thoughts around for let him out of here.   Mark: I think we're good. I'm just appreciative of all the hard work because he's one of the newer certified agents that's joined us recently to broadcast these select Properties. In already in the first 30 days, they get seven properties under contract and you're feeling a lot more offers than just those 70 got under contract because it's it's a wild market. But you know, we appreciate what you're doing. And these are ways that we can always broadcast all the good things that are happening. So you know, buyers can tune in and then give you a call after this.   Michael: What are you seeing buyers do to win offers? How are they being strategic? What insights tips tricks, can you get folks that are looking to make offers in the Jackson market?   Ryan: So we actually teach a class on this once a week at our brokerage next time we get together as agents, all of us and we talk about Okay, what have you done in the last week or for last? What have you seen as listing agents that other agents are doing all four Why's the Step Up Calls is a popular one. I tell investors that if it's a hot house and has multiple offers a let's make it easy as we can be on seller as far as closing time. That's a huge deal. You tell me your parameters on when you'd like to close? Let me see when the seller would like to close and try to make it easy as possible on them. That's what they really like is easy closing dates.   As far as the finger goes. I don't try to recommend a price. But I will tell an investor to do their numbers and look at the house. And if it's a solid house getting that rent, where are you comfortable, where do your numbers line up to where you can make this much profit a month and this will make you happy. And let's go in at that number.   I'm a huge again, I'm a huge math guy I like to see my numbers work and it's something satisfying whether you're preparing to flip a home or BRRRR a home if you're just buying a straight out rental to have a plan on paper and say okay, the house is gonna cost this gonna cost this device can call CES to fix it up ran it. My property manager has been it's going to cost this at the end of the day, my checking account is going to get this much deposit in it in it each month. To have that plan come to fruition and on All those numbers actually work mass is super satisfying to me. So we want to take it from that point where I want your numbers to make sense. Don't go overboard to try to win this house, do not fall in love with the house, fall in love with your numbers on paper and stick to that.   So we want to keep them at bay. But at the same time, we want to get as many houses as possible. So we want to be flexible on our closing date. Don't ask for any closing cost, and our communicate with that other agent and really sell our investor Hey, this is what everybody wants an investor coming in and giving you top dollar from California. Man, I'm on sale you to these guys. And they're going to be excited about selling their house to this guy.   Michael: Awesome, awesome. I love that.   Mark: To me, that is the that is the value right there. The certified agent is you know, getting your foot in the door and knowing who that listing agent is and calling up and saying, Yes, give me some info, give me a little information, what's going on, you know, and just letting them talk a bit. So you can go back and make that best offer.   Ryan: That's right. That's right. And I can usually let them know, you know, hopefully what it'll take to be in that top running.   Michael: Which is so huge, which is so huge.   Mark: And that that is huge because the buyers know whether they're in the running or not. If they are not, then take the money and put that towards the next property and move on. But you know you you don't want to tie up money that doesn't have a chance.   Michael: Well, Ryan, thank you so much for coming on, man. Really appreciate you. This was a lot of fun. And like I said, I'll be definitely reaching out to you because the Jackson market sounds like it's on fire. Awesome.   Mark: Thank you, Ryan. Appreciate it. Michael. This was awesome. enjoyed it.   Michael: Everybody that was our episode a big big big thank you to Ryan for hanging out with us and giving us a walkthrough of what the Jackson Mississippi market has to offer and what investors should expect and know when going into that market both with regard to things they might be encountering, and also how they should be making their offers. If you enjoyed the episode, please feel free to leave us a rating or review or subscribe to the YouTube channel. We always look forward and welcome feedback as to additional episodes ideas, just leave us a note in the comment section.    We look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing

This episode is an example of what the Roofstock Academy Mastermind sessions look like. Mastermind groups have long been a powerful tool that successful people use to support each other and advance their goals. Gathering a group of motivated individuals with a diverse range of skillsets to focus on one person at a time helps shine fresh light on challenges, uncover new solutions and provide accountability. The Mastermind group is just one of the many benefits we offer inside the Roofstock Academy. --- Transcript Tom: Greetings, and welcome to Roofstock Academy. My name is Tom Schneider. And I'm joined by Michael Albaum, Ryan Minekime and Dean West, and today we're going to be walking through a template of a mastermind group.   So this is a mastermind session that lasts about an hour. And we're going to be going through the regular activities where everyone is going to provide an update on their successes, their challenges. We're going to go into specific action items. And then we're going to put Ryan on the hot seat and talk about what he's working on. We're going to grill them, we're going to give them some feedback, all that good stuff. All right.   Dean: All right. Hi, everyone. My name is Dean West, a Roofstock Academy coach. And I have been investing in a couple markets now. Primarily Atlanta and Indianapolis. I believe I'm the the remotest real estate investor. I'm currently in Cape Town, South Africa, while investing in the US.   Ryan: Hello everyone, I'm Ryan Minekime. I'm also coach at the Roofstock Academy. I've been investing for about seven or eight years, I started out investing in California. And now I'm doing bur investing in the Indianapolis market as well. And I live in the Bay Area, California.   Tom: Hey, my name is Tom Schneider. I'm also a coach at Roofstock Academy. I have been investing for about 10 years, and I invest remotely in the southeast of the United States as well as the North East.   Michael: Hey, everybody, I'm Michael album, I'm also a coach at the Roofstock Academy. I like Ryan got my start investing in Southern California about a decade ago and do value add multifamily investing all over the country with a emphasis and focus on the Midwest on some of those Midwest markets.   Dean: Alright. So I'm really excited today to on behalf of rootstock Academy to be introducing mastermind groups. And a mastermind group is something that's actually quite near and dear to my heart. It's It's when I first started out several years back, I was in my own mastermind group with three other people. And that's the one thing that really spurred me to take action on my real estate investing and pushed me both professionally and personally.   So the mastermind group what it is, it's a accountability group of like minded people. So groups typically consist of three to five people. And there's certain roles within the group. And how it's broken down is it's broken into four major sections. And the sections talk about kind of the week overview, talking about, you know, some of the challenges and successes that you've had during the week goes then into talking about, you know, what, what your major or epic goal is that you're trying to achieve. And it doesn't just have to be in real estate, I actually I encourage people to talk about not just real estate, but also kind of personal if you're looking to lose 10 pounds or something like that, as well as invest in a property in Dallas, Texas. Great, put it out there. And I think it's something that's, that's really helpful for people to grow.   One of the big things we do in a mastermind group is what's called the hot seat, the hot seat is kind of a deep dive. So every week on a rotating basis, and the hot seat is chosen for one person and and that person talks about any challenge that they're having that they're trying to overcome. And they use the rest of the group as a sounding board, or as a way of soliciting feedback to try and overcome that challenge. And if you don't have challenges for the week, that's fine as well. You can talk about your, your kind of your roadmap to success and just see what what people have to say about, you know, the structure that you've put in place to achieve that epic goal.   And then the last section is is talking about what are you committing to? What are you committed to from next week? What are you going to achieve before the next mastermind group. And I think it's really important to to set a goal. But ultimately, if you like myself, we don't always follow through with it and mastermind groups, hey, I don't quote me on this here. But there was a study done when the University of California University is talking about how, you know, if you set a goal, that's great, but if you set a goal with in a mastermind group, you're 76% more likely to actually achieve that goal.   So I think that that resonates really well with me, just being my personal background of getting introduced to mastermind groups, and I really hope it's a success for all of you.   Michael: And I think it was something like 37% of statistics are made up on the spot, but that probably wasn't one of them.   Dean: Absolutely not. Not this one. Yeah, so I think what we're gonna do now is just give you a bit of a taste of a dry run of a mastermind group in action. So this is the first time we're meeting together as a formation of this, this mastermind group. So the first meeting is always a slightly different than the second, the third meeting, we have a template that will be going through the four roles, which I should touch on as well says the moderator, which I will be today, the moderator is typically in charge of setting up the meetings, and really just helping to facilitate the discussion move things along during the call.   The second piece is the timekeeper. So Michael will be our timekeeper for today, very important.They are the ones that are tracking minute by minute, you know that making sure we're on schedule. And if we are running off schedule, or someone's speaking a bit long, they will help gently remind them that they're going over their allotted time.   The third role is the the note taker. So Tom will be our note taker today. They will be the responsible for filling out the template, jotting down what people's commitments are epic goals, and then at the end of the mastermind group, they will, they will then share that document with the rest of the group.   And then fourth is the hot seat. So Ryan will be in our hot seat today. And that, again, is just talking about about half the time has spoken about just a challenge or a roadmap that they're trying to achieve. And they'll be walking through that.   Michael: And Dean do these positions rotate from meeting to meeting. Are they consistent throughout the life of the group?   Dean: Yeah, absolutely. So they do rotate to keep things you know, make sure everyone gets a fair a fair say throughout the sessions. So every week it typically rotates. And at the end of the meeting is typically when we decide on on the hot seat for next week who the facilitators timekeeper, etc.   Michael: Awesome.   Dean: Great. Awesome.   All right. So let's dive right in. Like I said, I'll be the moderator today. Tom, the note taker, Michael, the timekeeper, and then Ryan, the hot seat. And so kicking off is our overview section. So this in this section here, we talk about our, our challenges and successes, we typically don't want to talk for a second, I think for 5 minutes. So we only want to talk for about a minute or so about, you know, just some highlights some of the successes or the highs and lows of the week. And just to help inform the group.   Michael: Gentlemen, five minutes on the clock, start your engines.   Dean: Thank you, Michael.   So I can I can kick it off. So my my challenges and successes of the week. I guess I'll start off with my successes. I always like to start off on a high note. And is twofold. Actually, I last week, I rented out to my units that were vacant. So that is all taken care of now, which I'm very excited about. And then my second success is taxes cuz I like to cross donate and taxes. I've been pushed back a month. But that's didn't help me because I just pushed it my work back a month as well. So pretty much done to my taxes. And then one of my challenges for the week is just a personal challenge. Just the motivation to to work out on my side. Michael, you want to kick us off next?   Michael: Sure. So a high for me was I celebrated my two year wedding anniversary this past week, which was a lot of fun my wife and I did something really nice and special. My challenged that I had this week was I had a selling a six unit property that I bought as a buy and hold originally, but really turned it into a fix and flip over about a course of a year and a half. And that fill out a contract kind of went sideways due to a massive utility bill spiking and throwing off all of the valuations of the property. Because it's a multifamily commercial building, it trades based on cap rates and noi, and the noi got vastly decimated by this utility bill. So it's an estimated building, we're trying to figure out what to do with it, we're probably just going to take it off the market try to re stabilize it get the tenants in line, possibly even mass or sub meter everything or institute a rubs which is a ratio utility billing system and get the noi back in line and then bring it back on market at the end of the summer here.   Dean: Tom Do you want to go next?   Tom: I've been just dragging my feet like nobody's business on getting my insurance updated. I use the initial insurance that was provided to me and I, I knew that I wanted to change it and it's literally like years and years later. So I have officially bundled that with my personal through a big insurance broker. So kind of a big, big win for something that's just lasted way too long. And I'm also gonna I'm going to glob on to that success of getting taxes. That's something that I like to drag my feet on as well. But I have that submitted some challenges is I have a lot of balls in the air right now. With refinancing three properties, and it's a little bit ambiguous to me right now on where all of them sit, like I've been responding to emails as they come in, but I think it could be a little more proactive in reaching out to my lender. So I'd say the challenge is just being a little bit too passive in the process. Because, you know, I think there's there could be some timing considerations with, you know, making sure the loan rate lock and all that stuff. So, yeah, it's a challenge is just being a little bit more organized on some of these less organized than I should be on some of these refinances.   Michael: Is this all with the same lender, Tom or different lenders?   Tom: All the same lender.   Dean: Yeah. All right, Ryan.   Ryan: So I will start with challenges. And then we can end on a high note on my challenges. I think I've put in three offers over the past 10 days or so. And all of them got outbid by like, 40k on like, 150k purchase price. So just everything's getting taken very quickly. So that was a challenge is getting a little defeated there and putting in offers on the successes, I started looking at off market properties, which we'll jump into when I get in the hot seat. But I got two appointments that this week with potential sellers. So that was a positive note.   And then also my wife and I are said to have a baby on Thursday. And so this past weekend, we just did like everything as our last time before kids. So like we went to a brewery and we're like, Okay, this is the last time I'm going to burger for kids. We went to out to dinner, we're like this is our last date and like 18 years so. So we just, we went through and sort of did a bucket list of things we wanted to we wanted to do.   Tom: Just say Congrats. I joined the the dad club like a year and a half ago and the water's warm. It's It's It's awesome. My one my recommendation would be getting one of those giant yoga balls that you can sit on is one of the few things a dad can you know, to calm a baby like, you know, the bouncing up and down. Mom's got some special tools built right into her to help calm a baby. But yeah, I'd get one of those big yoga bouncy balls. But congratulations. That's really awesome.   Ryan: Yeah. Thank you exciting.   Dean: All right, Michael, how are we doing on time here?   Michael: We got nine seconds we crushed that guy's. Perfect,   Dean: Look at that. All right. So the next section is commitment. So we talk, this is about a 10 minute section roughly. And it's broken down to these three subsections. Again, the first one, this is our first mastermind group meeting, it will be slightly different.   But for this meeting, we'll be talking about our epic goals. Like I said, again, it doesn't just have to be real estate focus, think about you know, something in your personal life that you want to achieve, whether it be changing careers, or you know, losing weight, or whatever it is, and on top of your real estate goals as well.   So that's your your epic goal. We talked about also, it's what's called last week's commitment. Since we didn't have a commitment last week, we won't speak about it. And then if that commitment was completed, yes or no.   So I'll start off. Again, what's the timeline for the epic goals? It's it's pretty important like we talked about in restock Academy, setting your SMART goals and making sure it's realistic, timely, etc.   Ryan: What's the timeline for the epic goals?   Dean: You want to set a timeline around it, say epic goals typically, in your three to six month period is typically what you will try and shoot for. Alright, so starting off myself. So my first, it's not really an epic. I would call it more of a grand goal. And so one notch down from an epic goal. But you know, within the next three months, I do want to do a 401k Roth IRA conversion, as well as doing a cost segregation, potentially do a cost segregation study on my four Plex if the numbers make sense.   So what I'm trying to do as much as I can this year, as I'm shooting for my real estate, tax professional status, is I want to try and drive up as many expenses or deductions that I can this year in order to kind of offset my my wife's income. And number two is. So within the next three months, I also want to take over the management of my Indianapolis portfolio. And that's a couple of reasons but number one is an a bit underwhelmed with my PM at the moment, especially after doing my taxes just kind of seeing where things lie. And it also drive up my net operating income for my portfolio.   And then the third reason actually one of the more important ones is the reason I want to do this is because I need more hours for my tax professional status. I think we need 750 hours. And so I want to make sure that I reach that. My last goal and personal goal for me is that within the next three to four months, I want to be able to meditate everyday consistently for at least 15 minutes. And my mind is always on so many different places at once and I'd really like to kind of take a deep breath and kind of be able to focus. And I think meditation is a good aspect for that. So those are my epic goals, or grand goals.   Michael?   Michael: Awesome. So, by July 31, I would like to have my development projects completed, finished and started to get rented. So I've talked about this on a lot of other podcasts, a lot of other episodes, I'm redeveloping a 20,000 square foot commercial use, or mixed use building and creating 15 residential units and two commercial spaces out of that it has been a long, sweaty, bloody tear field road, that we're not quite done yet, but starting to get there. So I'm trying to get that over the finish line. By July 31. I'm going to speak that into reality.   Then I just got a flip property under contract, I'm doing a flip inside of my Roth IRA, something I wanted to try my hand at. So I just got a small property under contract, I'm looking at have that completed, that flip completed and marketed within the next 45 days, we're due to close in two weeks. So that's a pretty aggressive timeline, but I think it can be done.   And then on a more personal note, similar to Dean, I want to focus more on sleep, I've definitely noticed over time, my sleep has deteriorated, I think mostly to be me being in my own head. So many things like Tom and Dean, I've got a lot of balls up in the air and constantly thinking about that. And I need to really help separate for myself, the personal world, from the business world and the sleep world from the business world, which I find hard to do, I'm not really not good at condense or condensing is wrong word. But, boxing, if you will, different different aspects. And I'm always thinking and always switched on. So I need to really help focus on on switching off. So that's definitely a big focus of mine over the next three to six months.   Dean: Right. Awesome, Michael? Thank you, Tom?   Tom: Yeah, so in going through the reef eyes that I'm doing, I need to redeploy that capital on the cash that I'm getting back. So I'm expecting to have those funds in the bank sometime in early May. So I'd love to have it two to three properties in contract by the end of May. You know, I guess, being sequential about this, I've been an SFR guy for a long time. And I was thinking about doing a little bit of either small commercial or, or like a four Plex. I see. I see Michael, he's, he's excited about that. So I really need to sit down and kind of finalize that plan. So I might put some time on Michael's calendar and thinking through that.   So having those funds in when they hit the bank account like not, because I'm paying for that, right. But that debt is running, having a very locked in plan in place, they either continue to add a couple more SFR or go multifamily. And I think they're putting a date to that, I think by the mid May, so May 15. Like I have to have a very specific and I keep looking at you know, properties down like different strategies like looking at SFR and looking at commercial stuff. So I guess really locking that down and then executing that. So number one is going to fit Yep, building finalizing that, where I'm going to just tribute the new funds for these, this next round of acquisitions.   And my other goals that I have is just have my second vaccine coming up pretty excited about that. And just starting to reengage with some friends that I haven't seen in a while still, you know, wearing masks and doing doing all the right precautions, but after getting the second vaccine starting to, to re engage with some friends and some more outdoor stuff. So I love being specific about it. So all say having, you know, two events in a row of friends. Yes, that's gonna be my my non my my fun one. So.   Dean: That's very topical. And that's, that's Adam will go on a lot of us are dying to get out there again and re engage with the world like we used to back in the day. Right, Ryan? How about yourself?   Ryan: Yeah. So on a personal note, going back to being a dad on Thursday or sooner, just trying to be as supportive as possible in all of that was my wife. So taking care of the cooking and the cleaning and everything that I can do. Maybe some some midnight shifts, if I'm been tapped for that, but whatever, whatever it takes on that end, and then on the real estate side. So just working on getting this off market deal finding process up and running. So specifically, I want to put two properties under contract either buying holds or flips by we'll call it mid June. So get two properties under contract.   And then also I'm trying to figure out a way to monetize the leads that I don't want to keep. So what I've found is there's a lot of leads coming in that are probably good deals, but I just don't want them and so trying to figure out a way to monetize that without becoming like a wholesaler like very minimal touch way to at least break even on all my marketing spend for deals that I don't want to keep.   Dean: Awesome, you know, your, your your personal goal of cooking and waking up midnight. Now that you've said it in the mastermind group and as soon as Tom writes it down, it's a kind of set in stone. So you know, we're holding you to it, Ryan.   Ryan: Luckily, I'm not a great sleeper like all of you sounds like us some of that time and go do my midnight shift then.   Dean: Alright, excellent. So we set out epic goals. So what we can do so moving forward, once the group have set their epic goals, you typically use that as your kind of baseline that you kind of go against, and all your commitments that you commit to throughout the week should be committing to, you know, essentially a small version or a sprint goal that essentially leads to your epical eventually.   And since we didn't, like I said, do a mastermind group last week, we weren't we weren't talking about last week's commitment. And and hopefully next week, when we meet, we will say we've completed it and get together. All right, I think we're at time, Michael, how are we doing?   Michael: Yeah, we got two minutes left. So again, we did a nice job there.   Dean: Excellent. Okay. On to the deep dive the hot seat, Ryan. So again, this is just a challenge. Or if you don't have a challenge for the week, you're kind of your success or roadmap to success that you can kind of solicit feedback from from the group. So, Ryan, why don't we dive right in?   Ryan: Perfect. So like I mentioned, I'm trying to find off market deals. And I started this about a month and a half ago. And I think part of the issue right now is I'm just a little bit scattered. And so I have a cold caller that's basically cold, calling six hours a day to just find leads. And what I've found is that I'm running through my potential options pretty quickly. So again, I'm investing in Indianapolis. And my criteria is pretty narrow. It's like three bedroom, one and a half bath in certain neighborhoods. And there's only so many phone numbers that you can call. So I'm finding that I'm running through those leads pretty quickly. And I'm not finding the quality of leads that I wanted. And then now I've also started to try out direct mail campaigns as well.   And I think part of my issue is I'm just not quite focused, because I feel like I'm running out of leads in one spot or the other. So I'm just trying multiple things to see what sticks. But nothing, nothing is clicking as easily as I hoped it would or thought it would. And so I'm having a little bit of trouble there just like actually turning leads into appointments and getting the deal closed.   As I sort of mentioned in my epic goal, one of the pieces I'm trying to do is have this direct marketing source be sort of self funding. So if I can figure out a way to, if I get 10 leads, and maybe one or two look good for me, how do I get rid of the other eight without just throwing them away, like passes up someone that wants them, whether it's a relationship based thing, or actually sell them to someone. So I've been experimenting with a couple things on that end, for example, one I found someone local and IndY that can sort of track leads down. I've tested that out with a couple of them. Another one is I'm talking to the wholesaler that I normally use of actually selling him the leads, and then getting a commission on the downstream.   So those are the two approaches I've gone after. But it's just too early to tell right now if either of those will really work. So all of this, I would say I'm like early on in the game, but I don't know how people continue to do this year round and make it work because there's there just doesn't seem to be that many deals out there.   Dean: It's one of those things that inventory, not as Indianapolis I invest as well. So I noticed scarcity there, but just across the US is so scarce right now that people are going to cold calling and skip tracing, do all these other things that they can try and do to try and find some kind of deal out there. And so I can certainly empathize with your situation.   Ryan out of curiosity, what what um, what do you use for your cold calling? What's the I know, we spoke about deal machine, but I don't think it was that. What do you use right now?   Ryan: It's a company called scale and grow. And I think they're brand new, but I actually went to an investor meetup in Indianapolis last November, so and I happen to be sitting at a table with one of the guys who was just trying to kick that off the ground. And so it's very small right now. I think they have five or six school colors in the Philippines and they just sort of rotate those between they'll do the skip tracing for you and, and all that. So that's what I'm using right now. And I'm using prop stream. I mentioned I tried out one direct mailer. I'm using prop stream for that.   Michael: Ryan, I'm curious why your criteria just about your criteria that three, one and a half. Can you get into that a little bit and maybe we can try to figure out if we can't expand that a little expand the scope?   Ryan: Yeah, that's a good question. So honestly, I'm just a sucker for like three, one and a half brick building. So part of it is just personal preference. Like whenever I see those, I always jump on them.I really liked the one a half bathroom, it's more than one and a half bathroom than anything else. And so I feel like overall just attract a little bit better clientele of a renter, if I'm trying to keep that long term. And it's more attractive to sell if I want to flip it. So it's a little bit more the one and a half bathroom than anything else.   One thing I started to look at last week is expanding out to two beds, one and a half baths that are bigger in size. So 1000 square feet, so I can, if that's where you're going try and build a third bedroom on or maybe try to build a second bathroom on. But I almost feel like the building a third bedroom is probably easier than building a second half bath, just because of plumbing and everything else. But that's definitely an option or an opportunity to expand there.   Michael: That's exactly where I was going with that. And for everybody listening or watching, but Ryan's talking about is, is buying something that has enough square footage to add an additional bedroom, maybe it has a formal dining room or just a large living room that you can corner off or build some internal walls without changing the exterior footprints, because that's much easier to do is changing the interior footprint. And then adding a third or fourth or fifth bedroom, whatever size your heart desires. And that can add a tremendous amount of value both on the rental side and on the resale side of things.   So I think that's a really good way to expand the scope, I would not be shocked if your lead list doubled. As a result of that. I don't know what the housing stock looks like specifically in Indianapolis. But I said that weird Indianapolis. Indeed, but I think it could be could add a lot of names to your list.   Ryan: Yeah, just to give you a sense for the size, when I just did the three, one and a half. And I'm also doing over 25% equity. So people that aren't like leveraged up completely and would actually want to sell this at a discount. There was about 8000 people on that list. But given that 8000 people on cold calling, I actually don't even know the stats, I should notice that but a very small percent answer and then a very small percentage of that are willing to actually sell.   And so that's why I'm having trouble, like the 8000 actually run through pretty quickly with direct mail. I'm sure it lasts a little bit longer. But at least on cold calling, I'm running through that list pretty quickly.   Tom; That's a great segue into my comments, do you like so much of this business is like knowing your funnel and like what your conversion rates and like understanding what like baseline should be. Because I mean, you get to that point. And it's sort of just like an equation like, Okay, I know, if I do like, you know, a 10th of 1%, I need to put this many leads in or there's like, I think those metrics are super important to understand in this kind of a strategy, not only for like working backwards on hitting your goals, but also to monitor your partnerships that you're using, especially a newer company that's just kind of getting off the ground, I think it's really important to have kind of know what the industry baselines like of that type of either a cold call or a mailer. And then you can go back to talk to them and kind of see how they're performing against it.   Because I mean, there's so many different chains in the in the flow here, where there could be issues, where it's super important to have kind of a baseline of expectations on industry and kind of working working backwards. From there, I think that's also going to just add a lot of sanity of, of just being data driven about it instead of you know, just looking at the end of the day from the very start to the very end, but looking all those little like sub parts.   Ryan: Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think I definitely need to investigate that. I asked the company themselves, but they didn't give a good answer on baselines, probably because they're new. And they don't do it that much yet. But I think that's a really good point. And another thing I've been trying to do a little bit is sort of a b test, at least with different neighborhoods to say like, Alright, this neighborhood, I'm going to try cold calling this neighborhood, I'm going to try direct mail and see what gives a better response. So kind of testing within the two strategies that way, but I think knowing the industry benchmarks.   Tom: And the different layers of the funnel, right, so like, okay, what's the pickup rate? What's the actual like, talk about rate, you know, you know, I'm saying like getting as granular as you can there. I think that's gonna help identify, you know, where there are issues, issues in the flow, where you, you know, get as granular as possible that we might be my feedback on.   Ryan: Yeah, that's a really good plan.   Dean: And Ryan, what about So you said right now you're, you're limited to kind of your buybox to specific area of India, East nd Have you looked at other regions like this, the South, the east is obviously a lot more affordable and then the South has also kind of one of the places we talked about Greenwood. Southport, I think you have a place there, that you're gonna have some affordability even the West, I know there's some really good neighborhoods that are somewhat affordable still. And have you thought about expanding your your markets or your different neighborhoods?   Ryan: Yeah. So the 1000 I mentioned before is all of Indianapolis, including the west side, one thing I did start doing recently is expanding cells, as we talked about a little bit. So going down to Greenwood, the, the constraint I was working with in there is trying to keep it within the neighborhoods that I know my property manager manages. And so I basically reach out to them, ask them, which neighborhoods they expand to. And I've tried to stay within that just because I didn't really want to go down the headache of finding a new property manager and a new contractor and all that good stuff. So I want to try and keep it within the system. To the extent possible.   Dean: If you did find a place outside of the zone of where your pm works, would you be open to just flipping it and then kind of passing it on for profit moving on?   Ryan: Yeah, yeah, I'm not, I'm not necessarily sold on buying hold as a strategy for all these. It's more just an overall income stream. So I'm more than happy to, to flip, if I see an opportunity that comes up, or even potentially wholesale something, if it, if it works out, I'm trying to keep it sort of my overall goal is to not spend a lot of effort on this sort of keep systematize it as much as possible so I can sort of stay out of it, but just have extra leads coming in to myself as sort of a lead flow more than anything else.   Michael: This might be a bit of a naive question. But as someone who's never worked with cold callers, or hired a company like that, how much of this deal flow conversion rate do you think is a result of the physical person on the other end of that phone? Who's calling the lead?   Ryan: I'm sure it's a lot of it. Because I personally get cold callers, like calling me every day. And some of those almost all of them, I hang up immediately, but like some of them just something about, I mean, are you just like, Alright, well, what would you offer me and like, you just go a little bit further with them. And it's something about the person on the other side. So I think that's probably a big piece of it. And I think that back to Tom's point of like, knowing the industry benchmarks would probably add a lot of value there just to know if like, if this company is coming in at half the rate or if they're actually on par, and it's just a small funnel that you have to work with?   Dean: And what about the other thing, that from a personal experience, like yourself, I have to be hanging up on the cold callers and always get that call interested in selling my property? What about text messaging, you know, that's, that's less, it's a bit more formal, but it's, it's the only messages I've ever responded to on text. And that's definitely I don't like to speak to people, you know, potentially a precious situation of trying to sell my home. But if done via text, it's a bit more informal, that more relaxed, the seller could be the more relaxed by giving out information and being a bit more willing to speak to you.   Ryan: Yeah, I think that that's another good point. I actually have a friend who has sort of a text message business for a different industry. And so I was picking his brain a little bit on like how this might work for real estate, I just, I need to talk to him to see what the options are. I know, there are some legal things recently about texting that kind of made it a little bit tougher than it used to be.   But I definitely need to talk to him and talk to someone about this. I think overall, I should just talk to someone who does direct marketing, because I haven't necessarily done that. Like, I've watched a lot of YouTube videos, and I've read a lot of things about it. But I haven't talked to someone who's actually good at it that can probably like, help me skip over like two or three of the like learning steps that I'm going through and probably wasting money on right now.   Tom: I think that's a great like segue that kind of into like, another piece of advice is like, what, what parts of this do you want to be good at? And which parts do you want to outsource? You know, I think naturally like we're inclined to like to be sort of a jack of all trades and do everything but you know, this could be a good spot for you, right? And you don't want to spend too much time on it. Just find people that are already doing this, that already good at it. If the ultimate goal is deal flow, you know, let somebody else work, you know that you can vet and trust, like manage the sausage factory, where you just kind of be on the other side. Now, sure, you'll probably end up paying a little bit more for this, but I'd say for your time, it's probably worth it.   Ryan: Yeah. 100%. And the the piece that I'm trying to stay out of is like getting on the phone with potential sellers everyday like I have no business being in that I'm not good at it. And I don't want to be good at it. And so I've been trying to find someone that is willing to do sort of that piece of it. But it's just it's hard to find that when you don't have a track record of closing deals yet. You're like, hey, do you want to jump on the phone and talk to a bunch of random people that may or may not sell their house? And then maybe I'll give you a cut of it. So I think figuring out what that piece looks like and finding someone that I trust is definitely a big step in it.   And I've been trying to do that a little bit. I've talked to probably three or four people that are like local Indianapolis investors that are willing to jump on the phone and talk to people. But I think finalizing that piece of it is definitely worthwhile and definitely good plan.   Michael: Is this how wholesalers find their deals?   Ryan: It's basically wholesaling. But I'm trying not to do the work of wholesaling for like, I'm not trying to take it to fruition and actually sell the deal on the other side. Just take the lead and keep it for myself.   Michael: Right. Right. Well, so my guess is that the wholesaler that you buy from locally in India is probably not going to want to chat with you about how they source their deals. What about or do you think that they would? Would that be a good a good source to chat with?   Ryan: Well, so they're definitely not going to give me tips on how to get better at it. But what I think I mentioned this at the beginning, but one of the things I'm doing now is actually passing the lease that I don't want off to them, because I know they'll pretty much buy anything. And so we've actually worked out a deal, where they'll give me a cut on the back end of a deal that I've passed to them, and then they end up selling, which is a very low touch way to hopefully at least break even on this thing. But it's just too early to tell how many of those they're going to close.   Michael: So you're wholesaling to your wholesalers.   Ryan: Yeah, selling leads to my wholesaler. And then potentially buying it from them on the back end of   Michael: Full circle. Yeah, I I've got to imagine that there are wholesalers because I know that they're, you know, professional wholesalers in other markets, maybe on bigger pockets that you could try reaching out to just to see, kind of like Tom, the analogy, Tom uses the sausage factory, what components are they using, and they're a sausage factory, I've got imagine it's relatively homogeneous throughout the country, what that process looks like, I'm sure you're going to tailor it to slightly towards individuals and to different markets. But I think at the high level, just that the deal flow and the lead acquisition process, I would guess is is relatively done. And so trying to rather than trying to reinvent the wheel or build your own wheel, there's there have got to be folks out there that you can get on the phone to chat with.   Ryan: I think 100% I can and I read like a wholesaling book, which kind of got me there. But it's definitely more tailored to like how do you double close and all that kind of stuff? And so I think just the beginning of the process like that lead gen funnel, definitely worth talking to someone. And yes, that is exactly what they're doing. So I think that would probably be a good place to start. Probably someone not in Indianapolis, but I don't think I'm trying to steal their business.   Michael: Poach their deals. Yeah.   Ryan: Yeah, exactly.   Michael: And just people who don't know, Ryan, what's a double close?   Ryan: So the way I understand it on wholesaling, there's sort of two ways you can do it, you can either get the deal under contract and then assign it to someone else and have an assignment fee on there where it's very clear on the transaction that you are making 5k or 10k on this deal, or there's a double close where you technically close on the house, and then you immediately sell it to the end buyer. But you still don't need to bring any money to the table because they're sort of using the funds from the third transaction to from the first transaction. So there's sort of two ways to close on that from a wholesaling perspective.   Michael: Awesome.   Dean: This is a bit I kind of outside the box but I just remember listened to a podcast and I forgotten the name of the gentleman who does the study is quite an ingenious way you always have people flooding you with you know sell your house like speak to me like there's always people soliciting your business in the way do you want to stick out from the crowd right? You don't want to be just another one of the people asking do you want to sell your house and this one guy he used to send mail mail letter with often you know I want to buy your house etc. But he also left like a little Rubik's cube with it. And his tagline was, let's figure this out together. And I thought that was quite brilliant that they stuck out in his head and maybe like it they went into right now but when they are interested they will probably go back to that guy or left to like a weird little puzzle piece with their mail and just kind of makes you stick out from the crowd.   So I wouldn't say necessarily go down that route of mating off Rubik's Cubes or chess pieces but you know something similar can help you in the long term. Stick out from the from the card like that.   Ryan: Yeah, that's a great idea. My wife actually had a similar idea this weekend. She's like what if you just mail everyone cookies? I'm like I don't think we want to mail 8000 cookies to the city of Indianapolis.   Dean: Or candy!   Tom: Carmel, wrapped Carmel get like you know   Ryan: But yeah, no, I think something like that. So you're not just one other mailer and the 10 mailers they got this week is definitely, definitely a good idea.   Tom: I've got a sweet deal for you!   Dean: I know you're probably in Indianapolis. Aren't you heading to Indianapolis soon? Meet the buyer, at some point.   Ryan: Oh, I have an appointment set up. Yeah, but someone else is my product during the appointment.   Dean: Okay, I think the other thing is it's been more manual, but you know, highs, I'm driving for dollars, you know, driving past places where, you know, there's overgrown bushes, or you know, the grass is too long. And you can kind of see it, you know, just people who, you know, aren't picking off the place that may be on the verge of foreclosure, that you could potentially help them alleviate from a sticky situation.   So you could do a very targeted marketing that way as well, just to kind of another option.   Ryan: Yeah, I think there's a bunch of ways to do it. And it's just finding the right figuring out which one works for me. And then just sticking with that.   Michael: Wouldn't that be awesome if the grass front lawn grass link was public record, and you could search that?   Dean: I think it sounds like we have a few action items that you can work with. And then try and utilize to see what might be the best cold calling method or kind of wholesaling to wholesalers type of method that you can utilize for your for your investing.   Ryan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I'm gonna try and talk to a wholesaler gonna try and figure out what some of those industry benchmarks are. And just try to narrow in on some of the details, at least give myself some sanity on whether I'm actually just spinning here. Or if this is just the normal process.   Michael: With the industry benchmarking, I would push that company a little bit more on it, because I've got to imagine the whole reason they got into business in the first place was because they were trying to accomplish some goal, or they saw a niche in the marketplace that they could add value. So there's no way that they don't know what the industry benchmarks are like that just seems pretty naive to start a company and have no idea or not be able to give your clients a pretty straightforward answer of what's reasonable for the for the market.   Ryan: Yeah, that's a good point.   Dean: All right. Well, Ryan, you were speaking about some your your goals or what you plan to do. That segues well into our next topic, which is this coming week's commitment. So we'll kind of go around again in the same order. But working looking at your epic or grand goal, my case, you know, what you're committing to every week should be essentially biting away at the goal that you're trying to achieve eventually. So what you're trying to set for yourself, your commitments should kind of align with those, those epic goals.   So for my, for my commitments, I talked about my epic goals of doing the 401k, Roth IRA conversion and doing a cost seg. And I think, what I want to do next week, well, this coming week is run the numbers to see if cost segregation for my four plex would be worth spending the money to get it done. And so that's what I want to do this week to help achieve that goal.   And the second one is I want to read this is my second goal was to take over management about my portfolio is to read the first 30 pages of the book on managing rental properties. And so I have that collecting dust somewhere around here. And that I want to pick up and read.   The third one. I'm one meditate, set a commitment to meditating at least twice this week. And that's what I plan to do. And in terms of the next pieces is talking about your actionable next steps. So it's great to kind of set these these small goals. But let's go even further like how what do you need to do to achieve that commitment this week?   So like, what's that bite size or your most important next step to achieving that goal, or that commitment for next week. So kind of an auto just went down for my actionable next steps. Michael sent me a contact for a one of his people that helped him with the cost segregation study. And so I'm going to my actionable next step is to reach out to that contact, send them an email and introduce myself and kind of tell them what I'm trying to do the next actionable next step or most important next step about reading my book is to find the book. It's a crucial, crucial step in achieving that goal.   I just moved. Yes, I have boxes and boxes full of stuff I'm going to try find that book. And then my third one about meditating. I'm gonna set an alarm on my phone for two times this week to, to make sure I'm going to be meditating at that at that time so that I can't kind of back up. So that is my next week's commitment and my actionable next steps.   Michael?   Michael: Are you using any kind of assistance for to meditate any kind of app or book or music?   Dean: Yeah, yeah, I, I use an app. Right now. Actually, I download I used headspace last year, I tried to get into it. I wasn't really feeling it as much. So I downloaded Comm. app. It's another one of those very popular apps out there. And I part of my meditation rituals, I kind of set a little candle in front of me and just kind of focus on the breathing and look at the candle kind of zone out.   Tom: Love it and that when   Dean: I will livestream it as I'm meditating defeats the purpose. But anyway. Yeah. All right, Michael, what is your commitment this week?   Michael: So commitment this week is to make additional headway on the redevelopment projects going to push the contractor to make additional progress. And I'll talk about how to do that in my here in a minute. I want to get additional legwork done on the flip as well. And I'll talk about that in just a minute and then going to commit to watching some there's a TED talk or I think some YouTube videos on things you can do when you're having trouble sleeping. So I'm going to be watching some of those this week and trying to implement those.   So what I'm going to be doing stepwise actionable stepwise to get the contractor moving along. This whole time we've been on time and materials, he's been building me time and materials, which is basically how much time his crew spends, and whatever the materials cost. That's what he builds me, I'm gonna be moving to lump sum payments going forward. Because the longer they take, the more money they make, versus now when it's a lump sum, they are now incentivized to finish the project as quickly as possible, because that's when they get paid.   So for this whole time, there was just a lot of unknowns. So they said, Hey, we can't give you a lump sum number, we got to do TNM. So I said, Okay, and now we're past all of the major hurdles, knock on wood. So we should be able to, he should be able to give me a number. And that's really what I need.   Then I'm going to be getting a scope of work for the flip from the project manager out there, who's also the property manager and the agent. And so I said, Okay, I need you to commit to a number. Again, this is if it goes over, you're paying the bill. So I'm not playing these games anymore with these flips. So Ryan, off the chat with you offline about how the best way that you've done that with your burrs is and then yeah, I just watched those TED talks and YouTube videos on on things I can do to implement sleep, better sleep and then utilizing them throughout the week as needed.   Dean: Great. Thanks, Michael. Appreciate you walking us through that. Tom. How about you? What are you committing to this week?   Tom: I was just lastly on sleep. My goal, like I like breaking a sweat can be kind of helpful, like in the evening, like, like, sometimes I'll do like a night run. And I don't know, I find it helps a little bit. I don't know. Anyways.   Michael: Meditation is right.   Tom: Yeah. Meditation is a big is a big part of my spiel.   Michael: You can meditate in the sauna and do both for the price of one.   Tom: Oooh, meditate in the sauna, while running on a treadmill. Just defeat the purpose.   Dean: Yeah, but highly, highly interesting.   Tom: Alright, committing to this week, so I am committing to getting uber organized on my refinances that are going on right now. So like, I'm going to be able to say like exactly what the close date is set for. For those different and you know, they're all occupied units. So it's, you know, making sure that the right appraiser is is in contact is there just a clear date on closing, so getting very organized with my refinancing on knowing that capital is going to hit into the bank.   And the other I think kind of social one, right was like, scheduling a little, you know, safe little friendly outdoor thing with some friends. So I'm gonna get a little text, get set of dates. For my little outdoor, I'm typing my notes as well, outdoor, outdoor Hangout. So the specific actions I'm going to do to fulfill these next commitments is I'm going to call my lender and just walk through every single property and make sure that they have everything and that the, the appraisal has been scheduled.   And then for my actual step for a little social thing is I'm going to get a text thread going with my, my group of people, they're going to do a little, I don't know, either like wine tasting or some random outdoor thing. So get my get a text message thrown. So that'll be my text, spread text thread going with those friends. So, okay, done.   Dean: That's awesome, Tom. Now I have one of those things. And it's it's breaking down those bite sized chunks makes it so much more achievable as whenever you set a goal for yourself, even if it's small, you know, just taking that first step allows one to just be a bit more committed to kind of fulfilling it, you're a lot more likely. What do we say? 37%? More likely, if I'm making a random statistic now to be fulfilling that small goal.   Have you been vaccinated on that you have you gotten your vaccines yet?   Tom: I got my next one coming in the very beginning of May. I will say putting in the, you know, commitments to doing like fun things is pretty fun. I like that.   Dean: It's important as well. I mean, we totally we get sometimes it's not it's not just about work and try to get as much money as possible. It's, it's also about you know, what, you know, what your personal life is, and trying to kind of focus on taking a step back and focus on that as well. So that you feel that way.   Ryan? How about yourself?   Ryan: Yeah. So on my personal goal of becoming a father, I don't think there's really anything I need to do that's actionable to make that happen. Yeah, go to the hospital, pack the bags. On the on the real estate one, I think my goal is to talk to two leads and schedule one appointment in the next week. And then also just understand some of the benchmarks and everything a little bit more. And so I think my actionable steps are, I'm going to network with at least one wholesaler, or someone who's done lead generation through cold calling. So I'm going to just network with one person that's done that.   And then on the benchmark side, Michael, I'm just going to follow up and ask him again and say like, how do you not know this, like you should know this. So reach out to the company directly, as well as figure out, find another way to get industry benchmarks for that. So that I can compare it against something.   Tom: I might have a contact for you on on some industry benchmarks I went to, there was another mastermind I went to last year and actually just reached out randomly about being on the on the podcast. So I've got another contact for you who I'm sure has a pretty good handle on wholesaling benchmarks.   Ryan: That'd be awesome.   Dean: Real time feedback. This is one of the benefits of mastermind groups.   Ryan: That'd be awesome, Tom, thanks.   Dean: All right. So I think my problem better we're ahead of schedule. We're on time, right?   Michael: Yep. Still on time.   Dean: Excellent. So the last, the last thing we like to do is the last minute or two is just to talk about setting the next meeting date and time, I would typically recommend you sticking just to one, like weekly occurrence at at a specific time. Because if everyone's like, oh, let me check my calendar and try and figure it out, then it's not going to get done. We're all busy. And it's the way to getting this done and without fizzling out is setting a specific weekly, date and time every week. And then the other thing we do in this section is speak about who's going to be the next week's rolls. So I typically just kind of rotate it based on the attendee order.   And so we can, we can do that now. And for so for next week. We can commit to the same date and time. And then Ryan barring any kind of hospital occurrence at that time, but for the roles. Let's let's do Michael as the as the moderator, Tom, let's put you in the hot seat. Ryan, you can be the timekeeper. And I'll be the note keeper. Note Taker.   Michael: Perfect. Sounds good.   Dean: That's it. That is how you run a mastermind group session.   Tom: Beautiful.   Ryan: Great.   Dean: And I was just gonna say mastermind like I said it's it kind of resonates personally for me just because this was one thing that really pushed me to be more specific. I literally committed to booking a flight to Dallas, Texas, to check out real estate in that area when I was touring that back in the day and I pulled theTrigger because I had my meeting coming up, and I'm like, Alright, I better commit to this, I'm going to do it. And I booked my ticket and met a couple real estate agents there and did all the stuff. And so that's kind of my first step I took towards real estate investing with mastermind group.   So to me, it kind of resonates Well, it's, it's, I think it's a really important way to, to challenge yourself and to be held accountable to those challenges.   Michael: Absolutely. I think I've never participated in a formal mastermind, I have a couple of accountability buddies that I have calls with standing calls on a weekly basis. And if somebody misses a call, they got to pay the person 10 bucks. And we just talked about what the goals are for the week and what you know whether or not we accomplish them and why we didn't, did or did not accomplish them.   So just to piggyback off your point, the and I think that the localization of what your goals are, I think that there's a lot of science behind that just speaking them to yourself, but then even more, so speaking them to somebody else. Now, I'm not just letting myself down. I'm letting down my accountabilibuddy, who is holding me to an expectation so i think it's it's huge.   Dean: I like that, uh, that the accountabilibuddy, that's a very catchy.   Michael: That's great. It's great. Ryan, I'm curious, just doing like a live quick post mortem. On the session? Was that feedback helpful? Was that were those things that you hadn't thought of? On your own yet?   Ryan: Yeah, um, some of them. So there were things that I hadn't thought of. And then there were other things that I had thought of, but I kind of like wrote off in my mind, I was like, ads, probably not gonna go anywhere. But like hearing you guys say him again. I was like, Okay, I probably should go investigate that. I probably should, like industry benchmarks. I was like, I should know that. But like, whatever. If it's working at the end of the day, it's working, but like just understanding that knowing that, so I think it was really helpful. Yeah.   Dean: Don't forget that Rubik's Cube, you know, fundamental.   Ryan: Yeah. Got your sweet deal.   Dean: That's right. That's right. And one of the important things as well, mastermind groups just being able to people showing up in time, being held accountable to just speak in that time, and then it kind of ending on time as well. I think it's also it's one of the things that's really important. You know, one of the toughest things with mastermind group is just keeping people going and making sure people that doesn't fizzle out and the by kind of cutting the chit chatter a bit or just kind of sticking to the script or the the the template really helps keep people focused and keeps people coming back.   And so yeah, that is a first session. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Appreciate your time.   Michael: Alrighty, everybody, that was our episode, a big thank you to coach Ryan, Tom and Dean, that was a lot a lot of fun. I know I got a lot of value out of it sounds like Ryan did as well. We're going to be hopefully doing these continuously going forward. probably not going to be recording them, but we're still gonna be participating in the mastermind groups. Again, at this summit. You're interested in being a part of come check us out at rootstock. academy.com and we look forward to seeing you in the next one. Happy investing.

Ryan Lill is a singer/songwriter who has worked with serval artists including, Meghan Trainor and Todrick Hall. He says he can create a song about ANYTHING in less than 10 minutes. So one day, we tested his skills, and he BLEW us away.Yesterday a listener called in requesting an anniversary song for his wife. So Ryan worked his magic and created the SWEETEST song we've ever heard. Listen... See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Register for the next LIVE episode at ClubHouseWithRussell.com Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: Hey, what's up everybody. It's Russell. Welcome back. I hope you liked the last episode. What you think about a live version of the marketing secret show? Anyway I hope you guys enjoyed it. First off, I think it brings a different energy level. When I know it's live, I got to show off to all the people I get to see their faces. It's hopefully you guys enjoyed that part of it. And hopefully, went to clubhousewithrussell.com and when registered so that you, that way, when we do the next live podcast, you can be on it. So that's the first thing. And then number two is, this episode we're actually going to share the Q and A's, there's about 40 minutes of Q and A with people who were there. And so in the future, if you want me to answer your questions, like, come on the show, go to the clubhouse with russell.com register, show up on the show, and then I'll talk about a concept and then we'll open the lines for Q and A. And you see some people got hot seats coaching sessions during this Q and A, which is really fun. But I think the reason I want to share these with you here, because I think most of the conversations that happened, there's something that each of you could learn from those conversations. So I hope you enjoy it. And again, if you do, make sure again, go to clubhousewithrussel.com and register, and that way you can potentially be on our next live show and get your questions answered. So with that said, theme song, we come back, you guys will have a chance to do the Q and A, for part two from our last episode, which we talked about the real secret behind the value ladder, and you hear everybody's questions and hopefully we get some gold for you in the conversations. With that said, queue up the theme song, and we'll see you guys soon. I don't normally do a lot of Q and A cause I just always get nervous that someone's going to ask me one of those questions. And so, but we're going to do it. Yhennifer, is going to help me out here. We're going to bring some of you guys up to stage. So if you've actually... Yhennifer, what's the process, they want to ask a question to come stage, they have feedback, or they want to talk about their value ladder or whatever, what's the process? How do we play this game? Yhennifer: Yeah. So let's do this. So this is the process guys. There is the little hand in the bottom. I see it going up the numbers. So make sure that if you want to ask a question or add on to this conversation and bring some value, you can actually raise your hand. We'll start bringing up five people at a time, and then we will let you ask your questions. So make sure that you also invite some new people, right? We can still invite people as we're here on this call. Everybody will get a chance to listen in this awesome value. And then one more thing I want to share before we bring people up, is that a reminder that this is being recorded, so this conversation is going to be recorded and let's see, we're going to bring up a few people as you come on here, please mute yourself. And we'll unmute you one at a time, that way there is no static in the background. Yhennifer: Okay. All right. We got a few people that we invited on this stage. So we'll start with the first one, Stacy. Stacy is a health coach Institute founding partner, bootstrap from startup to 270 amazing team members. So welcome Stacy to the call. We're so excited to have you here. What question do you have for Russell? Stacy: Hi Russell. Russell: Hi Stacy? Stacy: I haven't followed you in a long, long time so I'm excited to finally get to talk to you. Russell: Oh, really good. Stacy: My question is when you are first introducing someone into your ecosystem and you have this product suite, do you have a value ladder that you present at the beginning? So just real quick, ours is, we have a call center, so we're doing cold traffic to a call center basically. I mean, we have a Funnel in all of that, but just in the beginning, people seem surprised that we're a school. So they take the initial program and that there'll be graduate programs on non and ours are all pretty high ticket offers. We're not doing $27. Our first program is like $5,000, but still we want them to be able to ascend. And so do you have an Ascension map and saying, "Hey, you're going to be here for the long term. Here's what it looks like." Russell: Yeah, definitely. Stacy: That makes sense question. Russell: Good question. So a couple of things. So I'm going to answer two folks. One of them answers your question. One will answer probably people whose businesses may not have started at 5,000. So I'll kind of answer both ways and then we can go deeper. But so in our world we have so many front end offers because I love creating front end offers. And so we're driving traffic to front end offers plus the events all over the place. And so what happens to someone, they couldn't click on an ad and they made the first thing they see is just our events or a high-end coaching, excuse me, or something like that. So whenever they do that, it goes through that initial sequence of three or four emails that are tied to that Funnel. And then they're done, it drops them into a followup Funnel that starts at the very beginning of our value ladder. And so it's a 60 email sequence that I wrote that I sat down and said, "Okay. If my mom was to come into my world, she doesn't want a Funnel. Is she barely knows an Instagram is, what would be the process? How would I grab her hand and take her through this process? What would it look like?" And so the first thing I would do is I would show her this video on YouTube that I did that actually explains this concept. Then number two, I would show her my book. Number three, I would have listen to these three podcasts episodes. Number four... And I sat down and mapped that out, where I would take my mom if she was coming into my world for the very first time. And so we wrote that out and it took a long time. It was kind of a pain, but it was worth it. We wrote a six email sequence that takes them through all of the Funnels and the videos and the podcast things in order that I think is the best strategic order. So I'm go through them and a rolled those out put them in a sequence. And now everyone joins my world. They may get like one or two emails about whatever the thing is that they registered for. And it was done. It drops into that sequence and it takes them through the path that slowly sends them through all the core offers and training and everything we have a in the most strategic order. So that's kind of the first half of it. The second side, I think you were more talking about is when someone comes in and they pay 5,000 and you have this Ascension yeah, for me, I used to have multiple high-end coaching programs until a year and a half ago, or maybe two years ago, we took down the Inner Circle, but at Funnel Hacking Live, we're kind of reopening three programs. We have our two Common Club X our Inner Circle in our category Kings. And inside of that, everyone's going to know that like, here's the Ascension, right? If you're a zero to a million dollars before you got a two comma club award, this is where you live, you live in two comma club X until you've gotten that. And you've earned it, now you move up to Inner Circle. And the Inner Circles from a million to 10 million, that's where you live to get 10 million. And from there, you send up to a category King and so they see that and it's in front of them. And the more you talk about it, the more you mentioned it, the more people naturally want to send up. In fact, when I launched my Inner Circle, most of the marketing happened on my podcast. I would just talk about my Inner Circle members all the time. And people start messaging me. Like, "I just want to be in the inner circle so bad." And they kept seeing that that was the essential naturally wanted to go. And so I just talked about all the time. I put those people on my stages. I told stories about them and the books I told about them. And I was always just talking about my Inner Circle members. And naturally, people keep seeing that. And they certain wanting to, this is what I want to go. This is the path. This is the journey I want to go on. And so, anyway, I don't know if that answers your question, but that's kind of how we structure it for people to be able to see. Stacy: You did. You just totally sparked something for me that I wasn't thinking about before. Thank you so much. Russell: Sweet. Well, great to meet you officially. Thanks for hanging out. Yhennifer: Thank you Stacy for being here. Awesome. So now we're going to move on to Ryan Peterson. So Ryan is a digital marketing strategist, voice of the Entrepreneur Secrets Podcast and holds up the one percent summit. Welcome Ryan. Ryan Peterson: Hey, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me up. Yeah. Russell, my question which is people who are starting out start on their value ladder. I mean, mapping it out is one thing, but where should I really focus my efforts and energy to get the most value, I guess for myself? Russell: So wait, say that again, your phone broke up a little bit. So you're saying you have your value out, you mapped it out. Where should you be focusing on? Is that what you said? Ryan Peterson: Yes. Exactly. Like what stage of the value ladder should I be focusing on? Russell: So show me where your business is right now. How much do you have built out? Where's it at right now? Ryan Peterson: Yeah, so right now, I have a podcast that is been a little difficult to going to create content daily and whatnot with had a baby recently in any way. And then I had a summit that I launched was a lot of fun and what I realized I don't have a next stage of my value ladder built out yet. And sitting back and thinking about it. I figured I should have thought out kind of the more pillars of my value ladder before I really start on the front end. And I'm assuming I was probably premature in building out the beginning of my value ladder without something more valuable towards the end, if that makes sense. Russell: Got you. I know where that's coming from. So I'd say a couple of things. I do think it's important people to start publishing and doing a summit or something initially, just because it gets momentum, gets you talking to people, finding your voice, like in our coaching programs, we start with that. But then the next thing is, you're saying, where do I make money, right? Where should I focus at? And so it's funny because when I first, this is like always been my biggest fear with talking about a value ladder is, if I can remember when I wrote the Dotcom Secrets Book, my first group of people that came into coaching afterwards was like, "Okay, Russell. So first I'm going to write my book, then I'm going to do my thing. And when they had the whole value ladder and all the stuff they were going to do." And I was like, "Wait, what?" The book is the hardest thing ever. Took me a decade to write a book. Don't start there. That was the biggest thing. Or they were trying to get all the things in place before the launch, any of it. And I'm a big believer nowadays. I try to guide as many people as possible. It's like, "Start at the very beginning." Where if you're doing a summit, doing podcasts, whatever, just to get the motion, getting into momentum. And then for me, the thing that I think is the best and just can be different for everybody. But for me, it's doing something about the thousand dollar price point and doing a webinar for it, right? Because I obviously love webinars, but that's where I focus at. Or if... I guess partially depends on the skill set of the entrepreneur, right? If you think you can be good at a webinar, that's where I would lead as my first big thing that I'm going to be spending a lot of money on, driving traffic and stuff like that. Some people are better on phone, right? If that's the case, I've started the higher ticket offer. Some people are horrible on the phone, horrible presenters, if so, I would do more of a traditional sales Funnel, where it's more written copy and stuff like that, kind of depending on your skill set, but I would definitely be picking one of those. I don't think you did out of order. I think the order's correct. I think it's starting publishing, is doing a summit because the summit introduced you as your dream 100, you get to know people, you start building a little bit of list. And now with that list, now you're able to go back and say, "Okay. Hey guys, my webinars starting come registered for my webinar. You have a chance to test it against traffic who knows who you are." And the second phase is, "Okay, here's all the people I interviewed in my summit. Now it's dream 100. Now, let's do a promotion to each of their lists, promoting the webinar, right?" And then that starts getting webinars better and cleaner and more efficient. And then the third step now is like, "Okay, I promote to my list. I promoted my dream one hundreds of lists. Now I'm going to go out and start buying Facebook ads or buying traffic to push people to the webinar." That's literally how we launched Clickfunnels. It was exactly that, right? I spent a lot of time building relationships with people through summits and other things. And then when Clickfunnels launched, we did a big webinar to our own list, made a bunch of money, which our dream 100 list made a bunch of money. And it wasn't till, I think we were probably year, year and a half into Clickfunnels before we ever bought our first ad. And before that it was all just focusing on those relationships we built through our own efforts. And so I think I would probably recommend something similar for you as you've done the first two steps. If you've done a summit, you got some relationships now, now it's like, okay, go and build your webinar or whatever the bigger one is. And now you can leverage your list and your relationships to launch it. And then from there you start transitioning to paid ads. Does that make sense? Ryan Peterson: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much. That was invaluable. Russell: Very cool. No worries. Thanks for hanging out. Yhennifer: Awesome Ryan, thank you for being here. Now, we're going to bring up Mark. Mark helps real estate agents and teams to automate processes using workflows to scale their businesses while protecting their families time. Mark, what is your question? Welcome to the call today. Mark: Well, first off I just wanted to say thank you, thank you, thank you, Russell, for what you have done. Honestly, I am the product of the value ladder. I had zero comprehension of what you do and have done all these years until November. And I've spent the last 30 years developing software for real estate agents using what we call workflows and it's different than Funnels and stuff like that, but it has some similar. Not sure where I needed to go. And whenever I saw, I forget what it was that actually started at first, there was some kind of free thing that you had. Then I got the three books. I read through the three books. I did the one Funnel away challenge twice. We've already signed up for Funnel Hacking Live. I want to be on the two comma club by September, if not, I mean, it will be September of next year whenever you have it. But the whole idea of the frameworks that you brought to me, I just want to say thank you. Russell: That's awesome. Mark: It's just been amazing what it has spurred in my mind because of what you have taught, not only the free stuff but even the low level price stuff. I mean, just amazing. So I would love to buy you a dinner sometime and just take your brain. I know everybody else does too, but golly, you do not know what you have done to touch my life in the lives of my family. So just want to say thank you. Russell: That's amazing. I like you for that. I appreciate that. We've got a shot. If you would ask me a question to pick my brain right now, we got a moment. Mark: Well, you start talking about the frameworks and stuff, that was my biggest aha, was the frameworks, was the four core pieces of, four core strategies and I've come up with details and stuff. And right now it's just content. I'm just trying to build the content. And I am failing in providing that on a regular basis, but I'm in the muck of building other content. And I started the idea of building a book. And then you made some kind of comment in a previous thing. It's like, put that off until later. It's like, okay, I'll put that off the later. But I am building kind of the topics of that and that'll come eventually, but man, it's just like a light bulb went off and my energy has just gone through the roof. My wife is saying, who is this guy? Russell Brunson, because he has changed my husband. And it's just been amazing. So that's all I wanted to say. Which is thank you. Yhennifer: Okay. Russell: Thank you, man. I feel great. Thank you. Yhennifer: Russell, this is the part where you put the mic drop, you do the thing in the background. Russell: There we go. I appreciate it. Yhennifer: Thank you, Mark for being here. We appreciate you so much and see you at Funnel Hacking Live. Awesome. Russell: Absolutely. Yhennifer: Now, yeah, we're going to bring on Ms Bates. She is a certified life coach. Best-Selling author. Master EFT practitioner. Welcome today to this call. Let us know what you have for Russell. Any questions? Welcome. Ms Bates: Well, thank you. So Russell, I love you. I know it's a crazy way to start but, I just do. Oh my God. Yhennifer: That got real weird, real fast. Ms Bates: I know. It's just amazing. You have been such an inspiration to me. I'm a solopreneur and I'm just so grateful for everything that you've done and that you put out. Russell: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Ms Bates: So here's my question. I'm a solopreneur and I've been working on different lead magnets. I've been testing different things like meditations or like do's and don'ts lists. But my question is once someone is in that Funnel, right, they go through that. My desire is to have them come to me for one-on-one coaching and then to put them into a group coaching program. And I'm wondering what the length of my email sequence should be. Russell: Got you. So walk me through what it looks like right now. So they come through a lead magnet and from there you're selling them into a high end thing. Is that right? That's the first thing? Ms Bates: Right. Russell: And what's the price point of the higher end thing? Ms Bates: The price point of the high end thing. It's a six months, $6,000. So if that is something that's out of their price range, then I down sell them into a group. Russell: Got you. And then what's the price on the group? Ms Bates: And the price on the group is 199 a month or 1997 for the year. Russell: Very cool. Do more people want to do the one-on-one work with you or the more do the group or is it kind of a just... Ms Bates: More people want to do the one-on-one work with me. I'm starting to try to move away because what I'm looking to do is scale, right? Which of course my time I can do more with a group than I can with the with the one-on-ones. So that's, I'm just trying to figure out how long I should be nurturing them? Russell: Yeah. The reality is especially those are the two core things you're selling. It's not so much how long do I do it for, it's part of everything you're doing right? It becomes part of your communication. You should be talking about it at everything. Do you know what I mean? For a long.. So it's not just like a 10 day or 30 day email sequence or whatever. It should be weaved into everything you're doing. So every communication, every email, every podcast, everything you're doing is always talking about these things and the people you have a chance to work with. I'd almost flip it around because you're going six... Are all the sales happening on the phone right now, or people buying just organically yet? Ms Bates: Nope. They're all happening on the phone. So it's all me like I'm doing the sales call, I'm doing everything. Russell: Is it what you got? Or do you like it? Ms Bates: I'm kind of falling in love with the sales part of it. So I want to get good at that before I outsource that. Russell: Yeah. Because I would almost flip it around a little bit where let's say, because you're saying you're into EFT as well, right? Is that what the coaching is based on that or something different? Ms Bates: Yeah, it primarily is based on that. Russell: Oh, very cool. So if I was doing it, I would make friends that are tied to specific things, right? Because I'm assuming you're doing tapping for, like you focusing on anything or is it like just kind of tapping as a whole? Ms Bates: Yeah. So for whatever reason, my focus has lately been it's multilevel marketing that are in the mid tier and they're having blocks getting to their next level. And so trauma resilience is a part of my passion and I know that those kinds of blocks show up for people. So I help people power through that and then get to the next level. Russell: Very cool. So I'd almost have something where the front end is tapping for trauma or for whatever it is, like something that comes in there. And then the first thing I would try to sell them is the $200 a month program. It's similar to that. I think that's if going to Annie Grace, she's the alcohol experiment. If you look at her model kind of Funnel hacker, that's what she's doing. She has a webinar right now that sells I think it's the same price 200 bucks a month. Or they can buy a year for, what is that? I think a year for 1997 for two grand, basically I believe is what her model is and that's where everyone goes through initially. She's not talking to those people, it's all being sold through a webinar and then after they've gone through like an hour long webinar, some signups some didn't. But then from there, the next part of the sequence is like, "Hey, if you're interested getting one-on-one help with me, go fill out the application here." And what'll happen is a couple of things, is it you'll start making money on a whole bunch of people you never talked to, which is nice, right? That's the first step. And the second step is that then when you start getting people on the phone, those people are going to be way easier to close because they sat through a 90 minute webinar with you. They’ve seen the value in those kinds of things. The craziest thing is when we... So I had my first big coaching program, my Inner Circle I ran that and it was a lot of work we had, I don't know, 20 or 30 people in it at a time. And then that's about time to Clickfunnels' launch. Clickfunnels launched. And it was a 90 minute webinars selling a thousand dollar product. And we started doing that like crazy. And then what was insane is that somebody will watch the 90 minute webinar side of Clickfunnels, found my coaching page on the thank you page and start applying. And my program went from 30 people to a hundred people in like two months. Like it was just caught on fire because the sales calls now easy. They're like, "We just watched Russell those 90 minutes. We want that." I was like, "Okay." And we're trying to sell them. Literally this is my credit card. I don't need any selling. It became so easy because the webinar pre-framed them. And again, not everyone's signed for coaching. Tons of people bought Clickfunnels there. And then the cream of the crop rose up and they came and they were ready. It's almost like if you flip your model a little bit, I bet you'd have more success because first off you going to making money off people who you haven't talked to you and the people you talk to, you're going to be more pre-framed to actually come in and buy from you. Ms Bates: Thank you. So the invitation initially is for the webinar or do I still put them through, like go through the freebie and then to the webinar and then to the group on, so you're up moving back this up, you're saying make the offer on the webinar for the group and then an application to one-on-one coaching. So that's my offer? Russell: Are you in a webinar right now or? Ms Bates: No, I'm not doing a webinar. Russell: So first thing I do is whatever you do and I'll keep doing it because you don't want that to stop. Like somebody to be like, take your eye off the ball. I keep doing that. Just it's working. Don't mess with that. So that's for sale. On the side, I would start creating webinars specifically to sell your $200 a month program. And then you start driving traffic directly to that and that'll become this new path. And then when that past making more money than the other one, then I would transition everything over. But don't mess with those working right now. Because it's working, I don't want to affect your business, but this is how I think long-term, this will become something that will be much more sustainable, more powerful for you. Does that make sense? So that's kind of how I would do it. Ms Bates: It does. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I love you again. Russell: No worries. Love you too. Thanks for hanging out. Yhennifer: Awesome, Ms. Bates, I'm glad that you got your question answered guys. Just a reminder, you guys can add some people onto this call. We're still going to be here for a few more minutes. We're so excited to be here. Guys? Russell is dropping some nuggets, okay? People pay thousands of dollars to get this coaching. So I'm so excited for all you guys that get a chance to ask Russell questions. So now we are going to bring Richard. Richard is that how you pronounce your name? He's a travel advisor. A key to the world travel, Disney destination expert. If I messed up your name, I'm sorry, but I hope I'm saying it correctly, but it's your turn. Welcome to the call. Richard: Thank you guys so much for having me through. You can call me, Rich. Everybody can call me Rich. That's fine. Yhennifer: Rich. Richard: So Russell, just want to say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm currently rereading probably the third or four time Expert Secrets. I was in Own Your Future this past week. I was part of that lead challenge that you had, the five day lead challenge. I like in your world, bro. So just want to say, thank you. Russell: Thanks man. Glad to have you here. Richard: Yeah. So my question is really so as a travel agent really my value ladder is bringing leads in, educating them on the best, we'll take Disney for instance, the best Disney vacation ever, right? I provide value, value, value, and then they go through their trip and then after that it's pretty much done. So that's kind of like the result, right? If I was to say, a problem to solution. My question is for you, what else should I think about to really continue to bring more value? And really, I don't have like a $7 lead magnet to a $97 to a mastermind to Inner Circle, all that how should I be thinking about my value ladder? Russell: So right now taught value ladder, someone goes through is a Disney cruise or Disney trip, what exactly are they getting in the end? Richard: So doesn't matter. It could be Disney world vacation, Disney cruise, basically it's a vacation. Russell: Got you. One thing, so my family has done a bunch of Disney vacations. We just got back a little while ago from one and it was funny. We were joking. We did our first Disney cruise. Like when you get on the boat, there's the dudes with the big old Disney hand or Mickey mouse hands on their high five. And you're coming on and they're giving you drinks. This is amazing experience coming on, it's the photograph and you need to get on the boat. And then the boat's amazing. And then when the cruise is done, you get off and there's no one greeting you it's like dead. When you walk off, it's like they shove you out to the buses. And you're just like, "Wow. It's over that. That experience has ended really bad." And it was funny, because then the next time we're booking a cruise, right? The last thing you remember from Disney was just like horrible experience where it's just ended. And we're sitting by the buses waiting for our thing. It ended on this really down note as opposed to an up note. Richard: Oh no. Russell: And so then we're like, Worsley book cruise and right? Well, Disney was cool, but it's kind of weird at the end. And then, so we booked with a Norwegian next time or whatever. And so it's the little things like that. So like I would be looking at okay, because obviously in a business like that, people who do those things, do those things, right? We did Disney, we did the VIP tours, did all kind of stuff. And we spent a lot of money and it's awesome, and we had a great experience. And what's crazy to me just as a marketer is like, when we got done, they're like, all right, we'll see you. And I'm just like, you realize people come to Disney and pay for VIP tours, come to Disney and pay for VIP tours. I was like, why didn't somebody Jetta offers something right there and right. Or the next day, or call us next week. Like, how was the experience? What was it like? Nobody did that to me. And I was like, we probably would have been probably still will because the experience was great. We'll probably re-booking for whenever, but they could have doubled their money right then on the spot while we're at the peak of emotional intensity, as opposed to waiting further down the line, that'd be the first thing we're looking at is like, how do you capture that right? In a way that now you can like, get them booked on the next thing. Especially again, people are paying higher and stuff. They travel more often. It can be every six months they're looking for something like that. And that becomes this huge high ticket recurring program. That'd be the first thing I would kind of think through. Do you have a process now when someone finishes that you take them through to get them to re up for the next thing? Richard: Yeah. I'm working on my follow-up scripts right now. The email followups after they've gone through. And then, yeah, even just what you were saying, what happens now? What happens next? They're kind of like in this, I had an amazing experience and then kind of the experience kind of dies off. Russell: Yeah. Had to get that back up and because that'd be the biggest thing. Because now you're not going and finding a new lead, convincing them, you're going through a process like it's, you've got them. You just got to get them to it again. Mark Joyner, was my first mentor and his second book is called the Great Formula. And inside the book, he says the secret to successful businesses is getting your customers to take a second drink, right? The first drink is like, you just go through all this effort from the ad to the conversion, to everything for the first drink. And we got him and then we like forget about and go try to get more people to give him drinks. Like, no, they're like the money in your business, which just comes back to value ladders, is like the second drink, right? Because that's all pure profit. You don't have to get the ad. You don't have to do the stuff. They're already sold. You just got to ask them for a second drink. And it's shifting the focus to that. Because I'm assuming you got a lot of things happening on the front end. It's just, man, how do you get the second, third and fifth vacation? And who do they know that can vacation with them, right? Like we vacation with our friends now. And so it's like, we have a good experience. The next trip. Usually we're riding our friends. So it's like, Hey, let's build a bigger trip. Like who else can you bring? You bring your family, your friends, and crafting something with them where now that's just for you, it's just pure profit. Richard: Yeah. I'm even going through Expert Secrets. And I don't want to take up too much of the time. Sorry. Just even thinking about, who do I want to serve, right? I've been called to serve a certain group and I have that kind of my avatar down. And so it's just serving them. It's not just Disney cruises or Disney vacations. It's, "Hey, have you thought about an all-inclusive Cancun resort?" Something different but still an experience that they can have. And there like you said, I think I like what you said in terms of just keep that first drink, that second drink, that third drink. So maybe just thinking about my email or marketing afterwards, if it's a survey, if it's something and just say, "Hey, how was it? What'd you like about it? Hey, did you know that this is happening? And you can book this next time." Russell: Oh yeah. I think even pre-building a trip. My wife would get stuff sometimes in email, or she'll see people, our friends on social media who posts these pictures from this trip. And then she's, "Oh, where'd they go?" And she'll call them up and find out. And then we ended up going that same trip. We would do those kinds of things versus like, Hey, here's getting them to socially share trip with other people. And then vice versa is like you coming to them like, Hey, so inside of our community here, we've got this community of, I don't know, whatever you call them are our community of travelers, right? And here's someone just went to Mexico, check out what they get in, check out this trip. And here's four or five people on trips. If you want info on these trips, let me know we can connect you with the same thing. But look at these pictures from everybody and creating a culture like that, where everybody is kind of sharing their trips amongst each other. And then you're the one that's booking them back and forth and it can be really cool. Richard: I'm actually building the Facebook group right now. And that's where I'm funneling every everyone too. So that I can go live there. I can go talk to people and just tell them, "Hey, these people went on this trip." And then have them come on as a Zoom call and just talk about their trip and what they liked and maybe inspire others to book that same trip. Russell: Nice. Awesome, man. That's very cool. What a fun business. Richard: Thank you. Thank you very much. And like I said, thank you so much for all you did for me and just all the value you provide. Russell: Oh, no worries. I appreciate that. Yhennifer: Thank you. Rich. Thank you for being here. We're going to bring on JJ. JJ has helped celebrities, artists, big brands and media companies create over 650 million in revenue by building relationships, my favorite thing in the world. What questions do you have for us so JJ? JJ: Oh my God it's Russell. What's up Russell? All right. So how many questions? What's my limit? What's my limit here. Yhennifer: You get one. JJ: I get one. Oh, God. I got to make this good. Russell: Don't mess it up. JJ: Really long one or really short one? Russell: We'll see. Give us the first one first. Just kidding. JJ: All right. On a serious note. So before you hired the best community manager in the world, and brought her on your team, how did you build those relationships with, I mean, your company blew up, I've been watching you from the beginning and I mean, within just a year or two, you blow up faster than almost anybody in the digital space. How did you keep those connections and build those connections and keep that community strong? I mean, you have the biggest, and I hate to say the four letter word, cult, behind you in the world when it comes to software. How did you do that in your value ladder? Russell: That's such a great question. And it's funny because Dave would have, you guys know he's now the CEO Clickfunnels has been for the last almost a year now. He does a great job, but it's funny because he'll go off call and coming to me, he's like, man, Russell, you've dug your wells so deep. He's like people just say yes to anything I ask them to do. And I think it was what you understand is that people, depending on when you came into my world, when people come in, it's like you see something, you saw Clickfunnels, you saw this, you saw this. But what people don't know is that I was in this game for man probably, I mean, years now, 10, 12 years before we launched Clickfunnels. And that time was doing that building relationships. In fact, I joked at the very beginning of this, I've been doing this so long, before Facebook, before MySpace, like Friendster was the hot social network when I was in college, when I started this game. And Friendster did not have an ad platform, Google had an ad platform, but a year into my business, they the Google slap happened and it ended. So I had a decade where we were not able to buy ads. There was nowhere to buy ads. You can buy banner ads kind of, but they didn't work that well. And so all I could do, the only way to get traffic was through relationships. And so I went to every event. I have to go to events and find out who the people that have traffic. And this is for me, it's hard because I'm super introverted and scared to death of people. And so what I did is I found extroverts who I liked. I said, "Hey, come to this event, I'll pay for you to go with me." And we go to these events. I'm like, okay, I have to meet all these people because they have traffic. These people have email lists and they got a blog and they got these different things. And I spent a decade of doing that, right, of going and talking to people, getting to know them, building relationships using the assets I had to help them to promote them, to either promote their stuff or to help them with different things wherever I could do. And so I spent a lot of time doing that. I think that's what people don't understand. They think that like, oh, he came out of nowhere. It just blew up. It's no, I spent so much time going out and building relationships. So when Clickfunnels came about, it was nice because it wasn't me just cold calling and Hey, you're who I am yet, but you should pro Clickfunnels. It was like, Hey, this is Russell, and we're friends and this is this project I'm working on. What do you think about? What would you do if you were me and the most amazing minds in the world, sharing with me what they would do, if it was them and giving me ideas and strategies and then they felt like they were part of it when we launched it and rolled it out. And so I think that's a big part of it, obviously you're tied into the relationship side of things, but I don't think people put enough effort into that. They focus on the quick ask, the quick wins. And not like, how do I actually build a real relationship? I was telling someone because we were last week at the Dean and Tony launch and somebody asked me, how'd you get to know Tony Robbins? How did you know? And I was like, "Well, I spent 12 years of my life serving him in any way I could, before I ever asked him for anything." It was 12 years of like, let me just help him and help him and help him. And since then, man, he's done so much promoting the last three or four years. But it came from a decade of building relationship. And I think you can build a relationship faster than that. Tony's obviously super human and the hardest person on earth to get a hold of. But it comes with leading first, serving and having to help people and getting to know people and stuff like that. So, yeah, it was a lot of digging my well, before we launched ClickFunnels. JJ: Well thank you for saying that you're on the stage. Because you come into some of these clubhouse rooms and you get these marketers, "Oh, you got to buy ads. You've got to buy ads." I didn't buy ads for 10 years, myself. I mean, you know Brad Hart. I work with Brad Hart now. He didn't buy ads for the first five years of his business and build those relationships first. Thank you for saying that. But honestly you really, I mean, I think leveled up your game by hiring a community manager. She's up on the stage. She's keeps your community engaged. Love Yhennifer. So throwing some love towards Yhennifer. So my second question... Yhennifer: It has to be quick, Jay. JJ: It's fast. You can beat me later. What is your favorite Oreo cookie? Russell: My favorite Oreo cookie. So actually when Collette and I got married, they toilet paper our car, we were driving out and they got Oreos and they stuck them to the side of the car, but the Oreos had pop rocks inside the frosting. And I remember pulling off the car and I was like, "This is disgusting, but I love pop rocks." And so, yeah. And I don't think I've seen pop rock Oreo frosting since then. But if they ever bring it back, I will be the first in line. So that'd probably be my favorite. I don't know. JJ: Oh. Yhennifer: That was a good one. Russell: That was worth it. Yhennifer: You guys heard it. You guys heard it first. If you find that out there, go ship it to the Clickfunnels headquarters, because boss we'll be happy. Russell: Oh man. Yhennifer: That was so good. All right. My girl McCall. McCall is the founder of Charisma Hacking. What question or anything you want to add? Russell: And hold on. And she's a speaker at this year's Funnel Hacking Live event. Yhennifer: Are you going to to be there? I'm so excited. First of all, before we get McCall to talk, guys, if you have not bought your tickets to Funnel Hacking Live, go to funnelhackinglive.com, get your tickets and I'll see you guys there. McCall, the mic is yours. McCall Jones: Oh my gosh. Hi friends. Thanks so much. I was just going to add two things that helped the value ladder really make sense for me in the last year and a half. Since I started this. Russell, you know I study everything that you do. And the first thing that I did was read.comsecrets. Something that was a little bit hard for me at the beginning that, I mean, you teach on all these things, but it was the one product will create the problem that the next one will solve. And the first thing that I thought was like, "Oh my gosh, I have to create those problems. And I have to create those problems for people to ascend my value ladder." You had said something, I don't remember if it was in a podcast or I just heard you speak on a live somewhere, but you talked about the customer Ascension ladder and kind of the education part of it. And it put it all into perspective for me of the way that all of the sudden, I was able to shift my mind instead of being like, "Hey, you have to create problems from the bottom up and the problems that one will solve, it will open up a new problem to create the next product and all of that." Instead I thought, "Okay, the customer Ascension, where do you eventually want people to go?" So your Inner Circle and your category Kings and all of that, and then map out the steps that it takes to get there. And then with each program, with each step of the value ladder, it's just like, "Oh, what do you need to educate people on in order for them to want to join the next program, right? So it's an educational process that helped me with the very bottom of it, because I know that I think it was Ryan was talking about summits and creating consistent content and all of that. When I put it into education, all of a sudden the bottom of the value ladder made so much more sense to me because at the beginning, nobody knew what gurus Maggie was, right. It was like what the heck was that? Russell: You had invented a new term. Yeah. McCall Jones: Yeah. It was like, this is crazy. And it's hard to do that, right. You know you're in a really scary place in business where you're trying to solve a problem that people don't think that they have. And this education kind of form of this value ladder when you said that it really helped me think like, "Oh, okay. The bottom of my evaluator needs to be educating on my frameworks." So my whole opt-in bottom of the value ladder, what people can do with podcasts or the video content they're creating the summits, all those kinds of things. If they're consistently educating on their frameworks at the bottom, right? They first let people know what they're doing, right? And the problem that they're solving. And then from there, it's like, okay, now that you know what the problem is, and you can accurately say, oh, I do have that problem. Wow. Then you can move them up into paid products, and you can continue to educate them until they get to the highest level. But that was the thing that helped me the most, because at first with the problems, it was just hard for my brain to kind of wrap around it. And then it was like, oh, if you can accurately help somebody get through one specific step and then educate them on what they need to know in order to join the next program, then they will continue to ascend your value ladder because they will have a problem that's solved and they will have the education they need in order to address that they have a new problem. So that was something that helped me. Yeah. Guys, come to Funnel Hacking Live. You have to be there. Russell: Yeah. The thing I would add to that too, is like, I think a lot of times people are so stressed. I got to figure all these pieces and all the things. And one thing that I noticed when I first started doing this and I've noticed other people's that a lot of times you don't know what the next thing is until you start doing your thing, right? You start selling your product. For me, it was funnels, funnels, funnels. I wrote the book, we created a software and all sorts of stuff, that was it, right? That was the plan. And then as people started signing up and they buy the book and buy the funnels, then it was the next question kept coming and coming, it wasn't me making this up. It was like, oh, here's the question that everybody keeps asking like, okay, how do I solve that problem? How do I solve that problem? So the customers will bring you the problem. You don't have to invent them. You just do your thing in the best of your ability. And then listen. And if you listen, then the next thing will come to you and you know exactly what to do so. McCall Jones: Another really interesting, I'm so sorry. I just will be really fast. But at the beginning, I've built these frameworks for 20 years, but I didn't know what my people needed. And if you try to force what you know on people, instead of what they need, then your products won't sell, right. But instead it was exactly what you said, as far as finding your voice, the same thing was, I think it was Dave who just popped into this room, Hi Dave? It's about finding your frameworks, right? So creating your content and making sure that you're publishing on a consistent basis. It's creating these frameworks and refining them and seeing what sticks for people. And then it's not just like, well, I know this, that's what I should create a product around. It's like, no, no, no. People will listen. And they will. It's exactly what you said. They will tell you that market research is so invaluable. And then in that next program, if you're building it from the ground up, then you educate them. You listen to their problems and you let them ask questions and then they will reveal what that next product needs to be. Super interesting. Russell: Very cool. Well, thanks for call. Excited to see you again soon at funnel hacking live with all of you guys here who are listening in as well. I hope it's going to be amazing. Yhennifer: Awesome guys. Make sure that you click on that little greenhouse, make sure that you're following the Marketing Secrets Live Club. There's going to be many more. Right, Russell? Russell: Yeah, this was actually really fun. I hope... Did you enjoy Yhennifer? That was fun. Yhennifer: It was amazing obviously, listening to you. The value that you provide and also being able to speak to our funnel hackers here that we're excited to chat with you. Russell: Yeah. So I think the game plan we're going to try and keep news a few times. If it sticks, then we'll keep doing it. But I actually really enjoyed not just talking about topic and pushing the podcast. That was nice to get feedback or questions or like getting McCall, like doubling down. Like it's something I learned that helped me to make sense. And that was way more valuable to have that a as actual application of the concept, not just the concept. So I loved it. It was fun. So we'll let you guys know kind of moving forward when we'll keep doing these. But that was awesome. So thank you so much for helping facilitate it and make it all happen. Thank you guys all for listening. And will let you guys know when the next party is going to start. And I think, hold on, I got an outro. Should I do an outro? Yhennifer: Wait, before you put that outro, like do one of those money signs, money noises, things. Russell: Let's see. Yhennifer: Come on you got the buttons over there. Russell: There's a button there… We got… We're so funny. Yhennifer: That is amazing. All right. So we're going to close out with this out show. Thank you so much guys, for being here. See you guys in the next one. Russell: All right. Thanks everybody.

So Ryan loves the 90's witchy flick "Practical Magic" and Rob....not so much! We discuses the Fox Family/ABC Family/Freeform Channel Halloween staple and Rob also coins the term "Snow Globe" movie! Can Ryan convince Rob that this film is truly a classic? Or will Rob continue to call it the movie where "they use witch powers to turn on a blender?" "Practical Magic is a 1998 American romantic comedy fantasy film based on the 1995 novel of the same name by Alice Hoffman. "Two witch sisters, raised by their eccentric aunts in a small town, face closed-minded prejudice and a curse which threatens to prevent them ever finding lasting love." INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/radicalretropodcast/ WEBSITE: https://ryanhunterstudios.wixsite.com/radicalretrorewind TWITTER: https://twitter.com/radicalretro85 --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/radicalretrorewind/message

I refused to demo the moves and made friends or co-workers do it.I was comfortable sharing my knowledge behind the scenes.But I also really really really (did I say REALLY!?) wanted to share my passion and knowledge and help others.So Ryan kind of gave me an ultimatum...Ryan basically told me at one point, "If you really want to do this thing, you need to suck it up and get over it and be in the photos."(I would say he said it nicer than that as I can't remember his exact phrasing since it feels like it was almost a decade ago, BUT he probably didn't as Ryan has never been afraid to be 100% blunt with me when I needed it. It's why I love to hate him at times and need him around all the more. Love you butthead! Anyway...)I'm telling you all of this because I think we believe there are parts of ourselves we can't change.I know I NEVER ever thought I'd be a person in front of the camera.But really it isn't that we CAN'T change them...it's that we don't "want" to.It's really often just an excuse we give ourselves to stay within our comfort zone.And maybe that's fine. We don't have to.Maybe changing that aspect of ourselves to reach a specific goal isn't "worth" it to us ultimately.But then we also have to realize that we are setting a limit to what we can achieve.Achieving "greatness," something we feel is beyond our reach, does mean embracing a part of ourselves that may not even yet exist.It can mean, to some extent, recreating how we see ourselves.I mean geez...had you asked me if I'd be doing live videos each week and taking half-nakey photos with make up on, I'd laugh at you as I put on my big t-shirt and pulled back my hair I hadn't brushed in a week. (Ok I still do the last part just also the other!)The point is, we can choose to be who we want to be. It just requires us acting AS IF we are the thing we want to be.It will be extremely uncomfortable to start. You will be implementing habits that often go against what you want to "naturally" do.But it's remembering that what has become natural isn't always best. It was often just easier to fall back into.However, with the repetition and embracing the new habits, it's why I say ACT AS IF over fake it till you make it, you will ultimately become truly who you want to be.Because when we ACT AS IF, we aren't faking it. We are just acting as if we are the person we want to be, implementing the habits needed to create the new lifestyle.As scary as that change was, as much as I felt like I was oddly leaving the Cori I'd always been behind...I wouldn't go back for a second.I became truly the person I wanted to be and am now able to do what I truly love and share my passion.For me the "risk" associated with the change? The uncomfortableness I had to go through?IT WAS ALL WORTH IT.And I think it's sometimes reminding ourselves that change, while hard, truly is worth it if our goal means that much to us.So if you're feeling really uncomfortable now with ACTING AS IF you are the person you ultimately want to be, remember it does get easier.It goes back to that super annoying saying - change requires change.Embrace those new habits this week. Give yourself a pat on the back for being willing to make yourself uncomfortable.Change is not for the weak And KEEP GOING!

Show Resources Here were the resources we covered in the episode: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryankmacinnis/ rmacinnis@linkedin.com twitter.com/rkmac LinkedIn Learning course about LinkedIn Ads by AJ Wilcox: LinkedIn Advertising Course Contact us at Podcast@B2Linked.com with ideas for what you'd like AJ to cover. Show Transcript: LinkedIn product pages just launched. And we've got some great news about what it means for marketers coming right up on the LinkedIn Ads Show. Welcome to the LinkedIn Ad show. Here's your host, AJ Wilcox. Hey there LinkedIn Ads fanatics. You may have heard about LinkedIn rolling out product pages since about the summer of 2020. We brought a friend of the show Ryan Macinnis back. And you might remember him if you listen to Episode 31. He is the Product Marketing Manager at LinkedIn who's over the products marketplace. He reached out to me a couple months ago and let me know about some really cool functionality that's coming to LinkedIn. And I had to keep it a secret from all of you. Sometimes we have to do hard things. And now we finally get to spill the beans about some really cool revelations with these new product pages. But first we highlight a couple reviews. Tom Tigwell from Great Britain says, "A trusted advisor. Without a shadow of a doubt, AJ is a trusted advisor for those interested in optimizing their LinkedIn ads to deliver high quality leads. Every podcast drops value and we appreciate your wisdom. Keep it up." Thanks, Tom. You are a total stud. And then we have Alessandra from Italy. She says, "Fantastico! Just what I needed to do a professional job in setting up a campaign for a customer. Great episodes, good insights and tips, useful resources, keep them coming. And I'm listening to all the episodes and taking notes, Grazie mille, as we say here, a thousand thanks. Alessandra from Italy." You're amazing. Hello, Alessandra, thanks so much for leaving such a kind review. And it's been a little while since I've been to Italy, but boy do I miss it. Everyone who's listening I want to feature you. So definitely go to whatever platform that you listen to podcasts on and give us a rating and review and I'll totally shout you out. Okay, with that being said, let's hit it. Ryan Macinnis is a Product Marketing Manager at LinkedIn over the products marketplace, which is a really exciting area of focus for LinkedIn. He's a marketer just like us. And we're excited to feature his insight. Ryan MacInnis, super excited to have you on again. Thanks so much for coming back. Thanks for having me. Oh, anytime. So obviously, we've had you on a previous episode, where we were talking about the Brand and Demand Playbook. Tell us what's new with you what's changed, and what you're working on now? Sure. So the Brand and Demand Playbook, which we launched back in September, was obviously a huge hit. And you obviously gave me the opportunity to talk about it here on your podcast. Since then, I've moved over from the sponsored messaging world where I was the product marketer for my first year at LinkedIn. And I've transitioned over to the pages team. So within the pages, ecosystem, all of the free tools that we know and love to help us expand our reach within our employee, community, or grow all of the advocacy work we're doing within our external facing communities. I joined that team at the end of last year, and I've been working on our new newest feature product pages. 3:08 Oh, yeah. So tell us first of all about product pages, what's LinkedIn's intent? And then how should we as marketers be thinking about how to leverage them and and be using them even already? 3:18 Sure. So product pages, at their core, are a new tab that companies will see that help them showcase the best of their products. And so for a long time, especially for larger companies, it's been really hard to separate your brand from your product. When you think about voice on a company page, company pages are top of funnel, maybe you're trying to share a response to something that's happening in the world or an update of what it's like to work at that company, there's really not a great place for you to spotlight and showcase products. And so if you think about product pages, this is our bottom of the funnel, pages offering, company pages, showcase pages, product pages, that give companies the ability to take all this work they've done growing their community organic community on LinkedIn, and channel that into product interest, and ultimately lead gen. That is our goal. So cultivating a product community and ultimately turning that interest into customers. And so I like to call it the digital storefront for your brand, which you know, it's kind of the greatest hits of all of your different assets on LinkedIn and on your website. So you can really showcase users that are using your product, rich media, how to use the product, as well as featured customers. Somebody like me is interested in using the product. I can see companies that aspirationally I'd like to be like and know, okay, directionally, they're using this tool to help them do what they do at that level. That's really exciting for me. So that's what it is. Our intent with it is to really give marketers one more tool in their tool belt, so they can take advantage of all of these things for free at the bottom of the funnel. And when you think about competitively smaller companies, it's really hard for them to stand out in the crowd when you're competing. In a market that has a really large incumbent, maybe you're in a noisy market, product pages are actually a great way to be discovered. So if you're a smaller company, in a space, like marketing automation, if you're looking at a competitor that has a really large following is really well known. That discovery aspect of seeing other products in that category gives you a fighting chance to be discovered and, and to showcase what you can offer to a prospective buyer. So that is our intent is to make it really easy for people who use the product to be advocates for it. And then people are interested in buying it or in the market have a really easy way to do that in correspond with the brand. And so that is some context of product pages. 5:40 Cool. Well, I don't think you'll find any marketer who's disappointed with this. This is obviously everyone wants leads, everyone wants more interaction for their products and services. So that's great. And just out of curiosity, because I know that the product pages have really been launching over here over the last few months, who's doing a really good job with their product pages. Who should we look at as an example or for advice? Yeah, that's a great question. And so first of all start with what the experience has been like over the past year. So we've really tried to understand what does it take to provide a new page that page admins find value in that marketers are really excited about, and make sure that we're doing it in a way that also members on LinkedIn, see as valuable. So at the end of last year, we shared that more than 10,000 products are now live, they have their own pages on LinkedIn. And it's really exciting. What we're doing now is we're rolling that out to new companies within the B2B software space. So that is a large amount of companies that you'll see over the next couple months, they're gonna get access to this. And so along the way, we've seen some really great examples, a couple that I mentioned, aside from LinkedIn campaign manager tool, which I know that you've left a review on, which was great, GitHub has a really great product page. Atlassian, generally, within their products that they have, I think they do a fantastic job. listing the ideal roles that are great fits for products, I think that's another highlight of product pages is when I land as a prospective buyer on a product page, I want to relate to the problem that this company or this product is solving, and to make me feel that I'm part of a community even if I'm not already a customer. So that's another good example. And I think Asana does a great job, from a project management perspective, another example of a noisy space, and then trying to find ways to really elevate your community to be advocates for you. I think those are three examples that I would highlight, Okay, we'll go check those out and see if we can build something similar. So from the perspective of a marketer, how do product pages help drive traffic and interest to us? Yeah, so product pages are one of the first things that you'll see if a company has one when they land on your company page. So it's really cool that this concept of a highlight reel, or most of what's new on your product page, or products are going to be one of the first things you'll see whether it's a company has added a new product page, or somebody left a new review. That is what gets surfaced pretty high up on someone's company page. So that's really exciting. In the long term, we're always looking for ways that we're going to drive additional sources of traffic to these pages. But I think in the short term, there are so many interesting ways that you can drive traffic to this page. We've had companies like Twilio say that they've actually included this in their internal employee advocacy platform, to say, "Hey, everyone, these are the tools that we work on every single day, we just got a product page, it's really cool. Share it on LinkedIn, tell everybody to go check out this product that you're really proud of." And so that's a really interesting way to drive traffic. And we've had other companies try to figure out how they can plug this into their LinkedIn ad strategy. So I know, that was one of the things that you and I talked about previously. But within even conversation ads, if somebody is going through that flow of evaluating whether or not they'd be a good fit for a product, it's a great way to keep them on LinkedIn without sending them to your website, and potentially losing that lead when they go to a different experience. So that's how marketers today I've been driving driving traffic to these pages. And like I mentioned, we're evaluating new ways to get more eyeballs on these pages as we roll it out more. 9:12 Oh, I love that. Just out of curiosity on the reviews because people can leave reviews. Is there an opportunity for moderating or responding to maybe like lower rated one? Yeah, it's a good question. Today, we're we're getting feedback from companies and how they'd like to interact with those who are leaving reviews. One of the things I'm personally most proud of is the very small amount of negative reviews or malicious reviews that we've seen on the platform. And I do think that there's an element of accountability that comes in your profile is tied to a person as opposed to maybe some anonymous individual that can speak differently when there's no accountability involved. And so we'll remove reviews if they're malicious and in any way they violate our terms of service, obviously or if they're false. So an example we use is, you know, LinkedIn doesn't work in New York, or there's just something that's not true. We have the tools to make sure that those are reviewed and removed if that's the case. And then we're working with page admins and marketers to understand how you'd like to respond. Do you want to be able to encourage people to upvote? reviews, make sure that the most helpful ones are first? Or would you like to go ahead and respond to the ones that are most pressing, maybe constructive, that can influence your product roadmap. So today, there's no opportunity to do that. But it's definitely something we're looking to do is to give these moderation tools an opportunity to be more involved and engaging with the community. Because at the end of the day, that's why people leave reviews because their customers, they're passionate about whatever that product is, or the problem that they solve. And we want to give marketers the ability to interact with them. 10:50 Oh, I love it. And then what about if we're marketing a certain product? Is there value in us? I think you said Asana sent out internally. Or maybe that was Twilio sent out internally, like, "Hey, everyone come in, like hop on the page and follow it." Is there value there in like, as many people as you can show that are using your product, or experts with it, to try to organically get more people seeing and exposed to the product? Is there like organic benefit there? Yeah, there's organic benefit in a really interesting and cool way. As somebody, we just rolled this out over the last couple months, this concept of being able to see who in your network is using a certain products. So if I were to go to JIRA, because I'm on the product team, I have a lot of product managers in my network, I think I have 113 connections that use JIRA in their day to day jobs. And so as a prospective buyer of JIRA, that makes me feel awesome, it makes me feel that I know that I've kind of come to the place where my network has told me, you know, this is a form of social proof and validation that we get when buying a car or asking a friend or recommendation on something. So when you get your network to share with customers, hey, we just launched this page, please go and you know, maybe add this product as a skill to your profile, it benefits you long term, because if a prospective buyer goes to that page, and sees that folks in their network, use that product that makes them feel a lot more comfortable, maybe presenting that product to their manager, or even bringing it on themselves to go ahead and become a customer. So there's a huge opportunity there. Oh, yeah. And I'm even thinking from an ads perspective. If someone wants to target let's say, Salesforce users. Right now, the way we have it is like Salesforce groups or Salesforce skills. It would be amazing in the future, if we had the ability to say, hey, let's target people who we know our users like they're certified users of the software. So I could definitely see how that could play into our ads targeting the future. So Ryan, before we hopped on, you were telling me about something that I thought was really exciting, which was lead gen forms on product pages. This is like being able to use the lead gen form function for something organic dealing with the company page, something that's not paid by ads. Tell us about this, like, how did you come to it? And how does it work? 13:07 Yeah, so as I mentioned earlier, product pages are great for bottom of the funnel conversion. But if you think about it from a buyer perspective, putting your website as the main CTA just feels like a lot of additional steps that someone would have to take to express interest. Like by being on a product page, you're showing a level of intent, where somebody as a marketer just would say, hey, this is pretty much as bottom of the funnel as it gets, if they go from awareness from a company page, or maybe they attended a webinar to now they're physically on the product page, looking at, you know, customer examples, and reading reviews like this is where we want to convert them. And so we were, in our mind thinking, if lead gen forms were on this page, the barrier to convert would be so low, that we would start providing a ton of value for a lot of these companies to start really promoting their product pages to start growing these communities a lot faster. And so lead gen forms on this page to your point, we've only had lead gen forms available through campaign manager for advertising platform, or if you're using it from an events perspective for from a registration point of view. And by having it on product pages, it's a really great way to expose a ton of marketers to something maybe they didn't have access to before. You know, maybe they maybe they're at a startup, they're at a company that isn't doing a ton with LinkedIn right now. They see this functionality, and it's a great way for them to say, product pages are providing a ton of great value for me today, what are ways that I can amplify this down the road, maybe I can put a product page as a carousel ad as somebody who's going through the experience of what does this page look like in the feed, or as I mentioned earlier on a conversation as if a sender is from a sales rep trying to get you to schedule a demo, and you know that maybe they're not going to do that within the first CTA product pages are a great way to evaluate that offer more. And then the Legion forum is just a great way to make sure that they within the LinkedIn ecosystem can take that action you want them to and you're still providing a ton of value while that barrier and that friction is very low. Great, are we going to have to have a campaign manager account? to set that up? Like, is that still gonna live within campaign manager? Or will lead gen forms be available right from the company page? 15:11 Yeah, they're gonna be available right from the company page. So you would be able to download leads, right from the admin view. And you'd be able to have a lead gen form behind one of your calls to action on a product page. So yeah, it's super easy. They're gonna even be able to download them right from the admin, admin view. And then you can upload them to your marketing automation software or your CRM. But we're essentially trying to make this as easy as possible and as transparent as possible, right. I'm a page admin, and I'm really excited about the team is doing it's so exciting to see leads are coming through a page, right? It's not something that you have to have a certain skill set to have access to what the lead gen number is, or a report that's generated, so it's going to be really accessible. Oh, and I'm assuming same partners, like you can still push right into your CRM. If you're Marketo, HubSpot, like those probably still use Zapier. Yeah, today, when we're launching lead gen forms, we're really focused on getting feedback. So today, the main functionality will be just the download capability. And from there, within our iteration of that, it will be working with partners to make this available within how it is today and campaign manager. But we wanted to find the lightest weight way to provide value. And just to start to build that behavior, where, you know, folks know that lead gen forms are a thing, here's what their value is, maybe somebody's never heard of lead gen forms on LinkedIn before, if they've only had a company page, and then from there, start to plug into the ways that they've used lead generation and other platforms. So that's the plan. 16:36 Yeah, that seems like such a no brainer, you're already getting leads from LinkedIn organically. And it's the same experience. Of course, you're gonna say, let me start wanting to promote some things that were added. Thank you. The other thing that I'll share that has been really cool for me to see is that many marketers, we talked to who managed company pages are different than those who run advertising campaigns on LinkedIn. So there's an opportunity for us to actually bring together marketers internally, to work on a shared objective, like if you think about historically, maybe the role of a company page or a showcase page, it's been around awareness, or it's been around trying to really grow a community at the middle to top of funnel. But a lot of these marketers really haven't had a way to contribute to a bottom of the funnel conversion metric like they would if you're running paid ads. And so we're seeing this really cool convergence, if you will, of personas within larger companies come together and actually collaborate and say, Hey, this is what what kind of messaging has worked really well on my ads, maybe you should use this in the description of a product page, or somebody who's built the product page says, Hey, we're really getting a lot of good traction on this page traffic point of view, you should think about promoting this in a piece of sponsored content or whatnot. So it's really been cool to see how those barriers have been knocked down even internally within these companies. Oh, yeah, that interplay? I mean, you're bringing marketing teams together, which is fantastic. Everyone should be doing that. And of course, I'm going to be curious about the interplay between product pages and ads. So how can we bridge those two worlds and be able to start promoting through campaign manager? I'm assuming because it's lead gen forms, there will be like a solid interplay between the two where you could maybe promote something that you've already been running organically or vice versa? How do we think about that? Yeah. So today, essentially, what the interplay is between campaign manager and product pages is using a product page like he would a website URL. In the early days of product pages, we're focused on two things. One is getting it to the scale that we can provide value, not only to companies but to members on LinkedIn. And then in the second act of this, trying to understand how we can make it even easier to amplify these pages. So I like to talk about the grocery store analogy, because I spent four years of my life working at a grocery store, where you want to make sure the grocery store is stocked before you go ahead, and you try to get people to even come. And then you open the doors when you're ready, you think okay, this has things for everyone. And then before you start to hand out flyers, you want to make sure that the grocery store is at least successful. And so well, I used to work for a grocery store that did flyers. So the flyer example might not be prominent anymore. But then from there, billboards, flyers, that sort of thing. So that's what really focuses product pages is today, we're working with a lot of marketers to view that URL as a way that they can plug into it, like a website URL, like they're doing a conversation ads, carousel ads, things like that. And then the other thing that's really cool about product pages, too, if you were to go to a product page and hit the share button, you can actually share that product page in the feed. So there's a little caption that will come up a little preview screen about that product. And it's a great way for you even organically as a company to share the things you're really excited about. But to answer your question. That's where we're focused on first is trying to get people excited about the organic offering, then making sure that there's a really easy way to think about how they would promote one through campaign manager and then from there, evaluating Let's figure out where we go from there. 20:01 And that seems to me like just such a no brainer when when I'm saying, Okay, do I spend all this time sending a request over to it to build me a new landing page or app, let's just send them to the existing product page on LinkedIn. Lincoln's already made sure this looks good on both desktop and mobile, it has everything I want. It's got, you know, customer stories and ratings. And all that definitely seems like a shortcut for marketers to start sending right there. And when can everyone expect to have product pages for their companies? What does that roll out look like? Also super excited if there's anything you can share about when some of these capabilities will kind of creep into campaign manager. And as advertisers can start to look forward to them? Yeah, I can't share anything on the campaign manager front, but you'll be one of the first to know when i when i do have more information on that. But what I will say is that we're starting very slow with product pages, because as I mentioned, we want to make sure we get the experience, right. So over the summer, we conducted a ton of interviews, we rolled out an alpha and a beta, just trying to make sure that the page was as we would call it, the greatest hits of your company, we want to make sure that it's kind of the skinny version of your website, so that it has everything you want, that you found helpful when it comes to converting prospective buyers, we can have that there. And so we had just over 10,000 product pages live by the end of December, which is really exciting. And this quarter, we're rolling it out to many, many more B2B software companies. And so it's probably 2030 fold the amount of companies they'll have access to. And our goal by the end of this quarter is every B2B software company will have access to a product page. And we're starting with B2B software for a couple of reasons. One, members on LinkedIn are already talking about these products every single day, like they've had, they've never really had a place where these can all come together so that that information can be accessible to everybody. So if I'm really skilled in campaign manager, and I have that as a skill on my profile, and I've been talking about it in the feed, how do we get everybody to make sure that you know who in your network is using this and you can reach out to them if you want to do that. So we're focused on b2b software. It's the most amount of, of products that the members associated with today, and it's a great way for us to understand at that scale, what works really well within this marketplace before we start to bring it to other use cases and verticals. But that's where we're really focused today. Great. And if someone is in B2B software, but somehow maybe they just didn't have it on their website properly, or anything. Is there an application process? Is there a way that someone can can start one? Or do they just have to publicize it nicely on the website and wait for LinkedIn to come crawl? 22:43 That's a good question. So and this happens, where, you know, maybe they see a week lag between a competitor in this space having access, and then it's, we are rolling it out slowly, they can reach out to me directly if they'd like to. It's rmacinnis@linkedin.com . Or we have an alias that they can they can email that's product pages-feedback@linkedin.com. And both of those will actually get routed to me. So I try to respond to almost every single one. And we'll evaluate it if it is a product and a software product. Indeed, we'll we'll do that, but I think one of the most interesting things is it's caused a lot of marketers to ask themselves, am I a product or my service? And you know, is this a feature or is this a product? And as a marketer, I would think it's a very good thought experiment, even to think about our own positioning to go back to our team and say, "Hey, we should really think about how we can play in this space, because this is what's going on here." So they can reach out there if they are indeed a B2B software company. Fantastic. All right, I'll put your the product email address in the show notes that way people aren't like bombarding you personally. Sounds good. Okay, that sounds great. Another question I've got, how should marketers think about product pages in terms of their overall marketing strategy? At what point would you say this is super valuable for someone to pay attention to their product page, and maybe put something else on the shelf? 24:03 Yeah, so one of the most interesting stats, and I'm sure it's higher now is that more than 70% of buyers are completing the buyer journey in a digital only environment in a digital only setting, which means that the likelihood you talk to a sales rep before making a purchase is very slim. And so as marketers, we should think about how we can use this to empower our teams at all aspects of the funnel. And so the reason why I say you should use it as much as possible as one, it's free, you can create one at any time, it's free to use. Two, it really has everything that you would want to look at, if you're trying to convince someone that this is a good product for them. So maybe there's already people in their network that use it. And if you're a sales rep, you've already identified what that messaging is. You can also see the companies they use a product and there's also an opportunity for the brand to showcase product tutorial videos, rich media of what certain dashboards or features may look like. And so if I'm being prospected into, and I see all of these things on day one on LinkedIn, that's a really interesting way to get my attention. So it's new, it's exciting, not a ton of companies are doing it. As I mentioned, we're slowly rolling this out, it's a good way stand up. And it's different than just sending somebody to your website, and hoping that this landing page, you've optimized for other channels is going to go ahead and get their attention and get them to convert, which means that you're gonna have to send them a five to seven touch email to get them to come back around. So as a marketer, I would say, because this is such a lightweight thing for you to stand up, you should be using this at all stages. And then give it to your team, so your customer success team should be asking your customers to add this product as a skill to their profile to leave a review, if they'd be so inclined. And your sales team should be using it maybe as their footer for email outreach, or even just to say, Hey, we were a part of something really new and exciting that LinkedIn is rolling out, we think it would be a really good way for you to get to know our products get to know our brand a bit more, you should check it out. So I think it presents a ton of new opportunities for marketers to really differentiate themselves and help other teams 26:05 along the way. I love it. Okay. And obviously, before we go off to the product, I'm going to ask about you like, personally, professionally next, but anything else that you want to share with us? Anything you're really excited about with product pages, or anything else that we haven't covered that you'd want people to know? No, I think that I would just say, I'm really excited about this. I always think about this, as Ryan, the marketer before joining LinkedIn. Ryan as somebody who's always struggling to differentiate myself from the competition. And it's really hard if you don't have the same budget, if you don't have the same market notoriety to really play on the same playing field. And product pages, as I mentioned, they give a ton of great opportunities for marketers to be on the same playing field from a discovery point of view, and to see what other products are in similar categories. And so we're always going to keep that in mind of like, how do we make this a true marketplace where people can go and find the right products for them. And then at the end of the day, make this really valuable, not only for the companies, but for the members, people who are coming to these pages, who are either users to say, here's what I love about the products, or as a prospective buyer to say, hey, this is what i'd love more information on. We're always going to be evolving these pages. But I'm really excited about how they turned up as a start. So cool. Ryan, thanks so much for sharing that. And my last question for you is basically what are you most excited about either, personally, professionally, or you can list one for both. But what what's in your world that you're excited about? 27:32 Sure. So I'll list one for both because I'm selfish. So today, I finally I have a puppy, a three month old puppy, my dog finally was able to use the bathroom outside today. We've been trying to get him to do that over the last couple weeks. He's gotten used to going to the bathroom inside. And so this is big news, what a way to start the week off. So that's what's exciting me personally, I feel like I'm making progress on my dog. What's exciting me professionally, is I think that the way that teams are working together marketing teams, during this time, where everybody is at home, is really exciting. I think we were nervous about it at the beginning of the pandemic. And there are so many great ways for us to stay involved to stay connected from a marketer, using the LinkedIn pages ecosystem, for example, there's so many great things, both internally and externally to really bring your company together. And I actually think that a lot of the success that marketers are seeing is going to influence how companies go back to work. And so that's what's exciting me professionally. Oh, that's cool. Seems a little bit what we'd expect that by forcing ourselves to be separate, it brings us together, but I think you're absolutely correct there. Well, Ryan, I'm super excited to have you on for round two. So I definitely hope there's around three. Thanks for sharing such awesome news with us. Do you want just share again, like if people want to follow you? People want to reach out and give product feedback? How can they do that? Sure. I would say the easiest way to reach out to me is my email. I'm totally fine. Giving that out. It's rmacinnis@linkedin.com if you want to connect with me, also great place to share feedback there. And if you're on Twitter, I'm @rkmac 29:14 @rkmac? @rkmac. Okay, beautiful. All right, everyone listening make sure you go follow Ryan. Keep him in mind as your as you have feedback from a marketing perspective. Remember, he was a marketer before he was a LinkedIn Product Manager. So excited to have you on our side and building great stuff for us. Thanks so much, Ryan. Thanks for having me, AJ. I've got the episode resources for you coming up. So stick around. Thank you for listening to the LinkedIn Ads Show. Hungry for more? AJ Wilcox, take it away. Okay, I promised you some great episode resources. So here they are. In the show notes below. You'll see a link to Ryan Macinnis his profile on LinkedIn, give him a follow connect with him. There's also his email address if you want to reach out and give him any feedback, also a link to his Twitter. Now I've got some fun news. I've talked to you a lot about the course that I did with LinkedIn Learning. And it is, of course, the best resource if you or someone on your team is looking to learn LinkedIn Ads, you should definitely check it out. But I've got some exciting news that within the next couple or few months, the course is going to be fully updated. We're working on that now. So I'm super excited to have you see all the new updated material. So check that out. Please look down on whatever podcast player you're using right now and hit subscribe if you want to hear me in your ear holes. And like we mentioned at the top of the episode, make sure to rate and review and I would love to shout you out. With any topics on your wish list or ideas or for feedback, whatever. Email us at Podcast@B2Linked.com. And with that being said, we'll see you back here next week. Cheering you on in your LinkedIn Ads initiatives.

(3:44)You want to build that authentic relationship with them. I want you to close your eyes, not if you're driving, of course, but close your eyes. And think back to the last time that you met someone that you didn't know in a face-to-face location, a party or something along those lines, what did you do? You introduce? You said, hello, you ask them a question. You probably engaged with them about either the event you were at. Maybe it was a kids game you were at, but you had that common thing, right? And so you began a conversation about the thing you have in common. So what can you do? How can you do that online? You take that extra time. Yes. It's may take you 20 seconds or 30 seconds to physically to go to someone's social media page and check out what they're about.  (9:44) And we call this a pain point. So what is it for them? You find these pain points out because you're asking genuine connections. You did see, you did a, you're learning about them. You're making, you know, those general compliments and connections with them. You're asking the questions to uncover the pain points. So what is a pain point? Maybe you're like, I don't even really understand what that is. A pain point is something that someone is having difficulty with in their life. Maybe it's something maybe they're feeling exhausted. Maybe they're in debt up to their nose and they can't pay for bills. Maybe they don't feel confident in theirselves. So they need to, you know, feeling good about themselves with makeup.  (12:48) And I really want to emphasize to the point that Kelly just made that it might not be your product service or opportunity with an example, because I'm an example, girl. So Ryan, my husband is a real estate broker. A lot of you guys have heard this before, but he, this summer, he had a client who was thinking about listing his multimillion dollar home. Ryan had reached out to him multiple times to get a listing agreement with him. He had never signed with Ryan. And finally he kept like putting things off, putting things off. And Ryan just asked the man straight up, is something going on? Is there anything I can do? The guy said, actually, my wife is going through some major pain in her foot right now. We can't get into a doctor for it. And I just can't show the house or list it with anybody until she's better because she's going to need surgery. 

In this NPR-ey episode of Pop Culture Unboxing, Matt is missing! So Ryan and Zach take their chance to trash-talk him, and also actually tell you about pop culture news...maybe. They’ll discuss albino deer, Joe Rogan, and all the upcoming Marvel and Star Wars shows and movies! Check out our show notes! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xRBdZpjj_V9brjQA7EttbMLPCR43jmxHQb_oVBWUTFM/edit?usp=sharing

For 30 episodes now, Ryan has been answering the questions that keep John up at night. But maybe it's time we addressed the root of the problem. Why do we stay up at night, thinking about stuff? Why do people dream and find comfort in altered states of consciousness? Yeah, that's right. Deep stuff. And as you may have guessed, a little above Ryan's pay grade. He's only a MD-PhD candidate after all. So Ryan took the week off and the podcast enlisted the help of the medical community's greatest power couple, MD-MPH Sean Dikdan and Psychiatrist Sondra Corgan. Sound effects acquired from http://www.freesfx.co.uk --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

In this episode of Beer With Darren, I spoke to Ryan Pereus about cold calling techniques and how to get your sales and marketing teams aligned. Ryan is from Philadelphia on the east coast of the US. He is the CEO, founder of two firms, one is Pereus Marketing and that led onto his other firm Superhuman Prospecting. The second is where he spends most of his time giving outsourced business development to companies. A lot of it is adding more to sales development reps. It ranges from marketing to insurance to finance, really any industry. He has always been in the direct marketing role in some type of person-to-person format, so he has always considered marketing with sales functions. Ryan sees good call pick up rates, dependent on the industry and market you are calling into. This can be the size of the company, position they are in, geographic location and each places specific needs. Companies use Pereus Marketing for 3 primary reasons. The most popular is that they just don't want to do it in house. Ryan originally started the company for this exact reason - to advance sales as a whole as the telemarketing role has a stigma to it. The negative perception started after roles in things like 'The Wolf Of Wall Street' or 'Boiler room'. There's a natural resistance to cold-callers but then added in the scams that were produced from those sales techniques only worsens the perceptions of cold-callers. It changed from someone giving information to be helpful to automatically a nuisance. Ryan looks to change this perception by generating leads by building trust with the prospects, rather than being aggressive or squeeze them into signing the deal. The way they deliver cold-calls will hopefully in time change the way people perceive them. The second is they don't know-how. There's a serious lack of sales education. If you want to be a lawyer you have to pass the bar. If you want to be a doctor you have to pass the boards. Why isn't there anything like that for salespeople? Some standard to meet in order for you to enter the profession at some level. So it's interesting that many people don't know the best practices. A lot of the time, salespeople use techniques which are bad for both parties. This is where we have identified processes and methodologies that work if you follow the steps. Another major hump for cold-calling and prospecting is rejection. It is understandable why it is terrifying. So Ryan's advise here is to express emotion (sales EQ) but you need to approach the call as if you are coding or solving a math problem. If you can start to adjust your brain to do that, looking at each call as if it's a single puzzle, the emotion or rejection just becomes part of the puzzle. Look at it like that piece of the puzzle not fitting, so compartmentalise and take the emotion out of it, you can start to see why people might not go forward with you has to do with the way you responded or worked through their problems. It becomes each call is a micro improvement. Ryan's tips to get around the 'gatekeeper' is to think about them differently or realise that they are a stakeholder in the decision. The way he goes about it is first 'pass through and engage' strategy. The strategy that you act confident and get through quickly. If they ask you questions of why or are they expecting your call, you still know that they know enough about the business.

When John hears the term "broken penis" he thinks of Schmidt from the sitcom New Girl, walking around with a giant plaster cast on his pelvis. While it's a comical concept on TV, it is tragically a real life medical condition. What exactly is a broken penis? And how do you avoid it at all costs? It's a question that John, and most of our male listeners, are anxious to have answered. So Ryan enlisted fellow medical student Eddy Nicaise to break it down for us. Sound effects acquired from http://www.freesfx.co.uk and https://www.youtube.com/audiolibrary/music?nv=1 --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

It's July and it's hot here in Wichita. Too bad there aren't any beaches around, for a quick swim! So Ryan and Wade decided to stay in the air conditioned comfort of their homes and soak up a true classic horror film and the first summertime blockbuster! Of course we are talking about Steven Speilberg's "Jaws"! You are definitely  gonna need a bigger boat for this deep dive into a real cinematic masterpiece! 

Show Resources: LinkedIn Learning course about LinkedIn Ads by AJ Wilcox: LinkedIn Advertising Course Contact us at Podcast@B2Linked.com with ideas for what you'd like AJ to cover. Show Transcript: LinkedIn is the only way to reach your ideal target audience, and your event is less a week away. What do you do? This is high urgency strategies on LinkedIn Ads. 0:17 Welcome to the LinkedIn Ads Show. Here's your host, AJ Wilcox. 0:24 Hey there LinkedIn Ads fanatics. So LinkedIn Ads is a great ad network. When you're targeting just evergreen audiences on a consistent pace. You put interesting offers in front of the ideal audience, and then you wait for them to come to you. Every once in a while though, we run into situations where we need to spend budget quickly. Maybe you have a webinar in three days and signups are low. Maybe you have an in person event coming up soon, or an offer that's expiring. Whatever the reason, it can be really difficult to spend both quickly and efficiently on LinkedIn. So today, we're specifically going through the strategies for accelerated delivery. So you can hit your goals without wasting your hard earned budget. So in the news this week, LinkedIn did a poll of its members, and found some pretty interesting statistics. And I'm just gonna read these off, it was in a private deck or something that I can't link to. So you'll just have to listen really closely to get these these benefits out of it. So 43% of respondents are now working remotely. That seems small compared to maybe the knowledge workers that I know. But maybe the vast majority of these are not knowledge workers. 36% of respondents say they're actually more productive when working from home than when they were working in their office. Now, to me that feels low because I am very productive working at home. And I get so much less done when I could hear conversation around me in an office environment. 54% of senior leaders reported that their companies are implementing virtual events as a result of the outbreak. That even feel low to me. But hey, this is interesting. It's a poll 52% are doing more calls on phone or video that feels extremely low, especially when you look at Zoom's stock price. 26% of respondents report feeling no impact to their productivity at all. When you add those who report feeling no impacts their productivity, the 26% to the 36% of people who feel more productive, that makes 62%. So what that means is the 38% that are left are the people who feel like they're less productive working from home, which totally based off of your style, your preference, but that's pretty wild to understand as well. 45% say that this is somewhat or very likely going to become a more permanent shift. I've been thinking recently about those in commercial real estate and I'm thinking, wow, all these companies are figuring out how to get more and more of their people working from home, so they don't need larger spaces. And what are they going do with all of that space. So it will be interesting to see what that industry does. I won't be surprised if every company has some kind of a work from home policy. Okay, let's jump in and highlight a few reviews that you guys as listeners have left on the podcast pages. RyanRhoten says "Pure value. AJ is such a wealth of information on LinkedIn ads. This podcast is like using the Hogwarts pensive to glimpse into his brain and extract the exact information you need to grow your business through LinkedIn Ads. Thanks for sharing AJ, you are as generous as you are wise." Thanks so much, Ryan. So Ryan runs The BRAND New You Podcast and anyone who is into branding should definitely check that one out, The BRAND New You Podcast by Ryan Rhoten. Thanks so much for leaving such an awesome review. Okay, Cinthia M. P. calls it "Not your average marketing podcast. I just started listening to this podcast based on the recommendation from a friend and I'm incredibly impressed. Sometimes marketing podcasts can be pretty general with information that is somewhat actionable, or information you've heard 1,000 times already, but I found this podcast to be full of useful, very detailed and specific information. I had to stop the podcast a few times to take notes. I highly recommend listening. I'm excited to keep learning from the best in the world of LinkedIn advertising." Cinthia, I don't know if we've met before, but thank you so much. That means the world to me that you would say that. That's exactly how I create this podcast. I actually created in mind for my employees to help train them. And so it's really nice to hear someone saying that they're listening along, ready to take notes. So thanks, you're doing it right. The username Steve467774, totally machine generated, it says, "Informative and actionable. One of my favorite podcasts. AJ gets into the details of how to be successful with LinkedIn Ads, while keeping things easy to understand. And the best part, you can take immediate action on what you learn in nearly every episode. Keep it coming." Steve, I absolutely think that that's the case and I at least hope it is that every episode, you can take something away and go and make changes to your account right then to become more successful or more efficient. Everyone else listening, I want to feature you so go and leave a review on whatever podcast player you listen, and I'd love to feature you there. Okay, with that being said, let's hit it. 5:29 If you listened to Episode 14, that was all about low budget strategies, how to be as incredibly efficient as you can possibly be on the network. And I want you to understand, this is nearly exactly the opposite. This is all about how to get accelerated delivery. And we know that we're going to pay more for this accelerated delivery. But here all of the triggers, all of the levers, all of the knobs that you can pull in turn in order to get accelerated delivery. These are in no particular order, I really mixed them around because I didn't want this podcast to be totally lopsided where you only needed to listen to the first half. Because the last half, it got increasingly less relevant or less valuable. So we'll jump into one that I think is maybe a little bit obvious, but it's more valuable in this situation to target large audiences. Because remember, only a small percentage of visitors on LinkedIn will end up clicking on an ad. It's about 1% if you have really good ad copy, or if you're extremely lucky. So that means the larger the audience you have, the more opportunities you will have for impressions. And the more impressions you have, the more clicks that you'll get totally dependent on your click through rate. So you'll want to target these large audiences. Now consider either expanding your existing audience into new audiences, or maybe even try to reach your existing audience with new targeting. For instance, here If you are only targeting your audience with job title targeting, be aware that LinkedIn only understands about 30% of job titles out there. And so if you can go and reach that same audience through either job function and seniority, or skills and seniority, or groups and seniority, you now have access to significantly more people in your audience who should already still be a great fit for your product or service. And of course, it makes sense to target new audiences. If you know that, wow, only directors and above are a good fit for what we do, maybe consider adding managers in there as well. Considering that LinkedIn considers those who are managers as being people managers. So not just you have the job title of manager, they want to see that you have people underneath you that report to you. My next recommendation is called LAN, L-A-N, and it applies to sponsored content campaigns. And you'll see as you're going Down in the build process, the very first checkbox that you come across will say LinkedIn audience expansion. Don't worry, we'll get to that one in a minute. But the second checkbox will be LinkedIn Audience Network, which is like LinkedIn Display Network. If you've used the Google Display Network or Facebook's audience network. The difference here is that LinkedIn's LAN, their audience network is extremely high quality. Every one of these sites were handpicked by someone who was way way overpaid for doing this kind of job. But it's super important because so many advertisers on LinkedIn, super, super care about the sites that they're being associated with and how that reflects on their brand. LinkedIn hasn't announced before, which sites that LAAN actually has access to, and it's been really difficult. I've had conversations with those who are overland and so I know a few of these sites, but I've been under a nondisclosure agreement. So I couldn't share. So I was super excited when last week when LinkedIn made their announcement about engagement retargeting. They also mentioned an update to LAN. And they mentioned three places where these ads can show up. So Microsoft New, MSN.com, and the app Flipboard. Obviously, this is just a very small amount, I'm sure there are at least 1,000 of these sites who have all been hand picked to be high quality. What's so cool about being able to just enable LAN is one checkbox later, and you now have the opportunity to get maybe 25% more traffic from your same audience. You're not diluting the targeting, you're going after the same people you've been going after anyway. So lead quality is going to stay extremely high. The reason why you can capture 25% or maybe even more than that traffic is because LinkedIn is not really the site that people go and spend a whole lot of time on. So if LinkedIn understood who these people are when they're on other sites around the web, that is so good for us to be able to reach the exact audience in more places than just LinkedIn. And as a bonus here, when you turn on LAN, you will notice your overall cost per click goes down. And that's because your clicks on the audience network actually cost significantly less than they do on LinkedIn.com. So you'll get more traffic, it will cost less per, and your targeting stays the same. It's the same high quality, which is more than I can say for audience expansion. Still, we'll get to it. 10:37 So next we have your bidding strategy. Now first off, you need to understand the difference between your bid and your budget. Your bid is how aggressively you're telling LinkedIn I want traffic when people show up. Your budget, on the other hand, is a safety net that says once you've hit this, we remove you entirely from the auction from bidding. So first, what you want to do is get your budgets out of the way, because what you don't want to do is bid super aggressively on LinkedIn to get traffic, and then hit your budget halfway through the day, and then realize that man, I blew all of my budget on super expensive clicks. If I would have just bid less, I could have gotten clicks for cheaper and had it go all day long, maybe even gotten twice the traffic. If you've listened to me for long enough, you know that I'm not a fan of paying too much for clicks. So I always recommend bidding low. Under a high urgency circumstance, though you can't cheap out on your bids, you want to bid aggressively, giving you the maximum amount of impression share, which then turns into clicks at the rate of whatever your click through rate is. Now if you have time, I recommend first starting by bidding by cost per click, just because the risk is lower to you as an advertiser doing this because you're only going to pay whenever someone actually clicks to go to your landing page or clicks on your offer. And you can still bid aggressively on cost per click, but it's just that you're going to pay only for what you get. And I say if you have time, because a lot of times in high urgency circumstances, you don't really have time to go through and test different ad formats or test different bidding strategies. Because LinkedIn doesn't have hourly reporting, you have to go and really take a stab at something and hope that it's going to work as well as possible for you. So if you start bidding by cost per click, and you don't do well in the auction, you're not getting enough traffic. That's really unfortunate and you've lost some time. So that's a natural segue into the next one, which is all about CPM bidding. So as opposed to CPC or cost per click bidding when you're only paying because someone took action on your ads. The opposite end of the spectrum is CPM or cost per thousand impression bidding. And the way this works is it takes the risk and puts it all on you as an advertiser. Because if you have a bad ad that no one wants to click on, LinkedIn is gonna get paid no matter what, just for showing it. And you could get zero traffic to your website and still be paying and paying handsomely. The reason why it's attractive here, though, is CPM bidding, basically bypasses the whole auction. You don't need to worry too much about your relevancy score, how good your ads are, and LinkedIn size. Because since LinkedIn makes money every time they show your ad, it's low risk for them. So they don't really care to take that into account. They're just going to look and see what you're bidding and say, yeah, okay, we think that that would be more worthwhile to bank that cash rather than take a chance on serving against other advertisers who may only pay when their ads get clicked on. So this is riskier for you. But when you are bidding by CPM, LinkedIn will want to show your ad at every possible juncture. Every time that they get a chance they're going to show it, which is great for you if you're trying to get as many of these impressions in as possible in time for your event or the end of your budget. 14:10 Now, I've talked about CPM bidding. But it's really helpful to understand there's another option called auto bidding, that really is very much the same thing. All auto bidding is, is CPM bidding that you don't have to babysit as much. You don't choose a bid. It's kind of like handing LinkedIn, your wallet and saying here, take as much out as you think you need. But whatever objective you've told LinkedIn that you're trying to optimize towards, when you're doing auto bidding, it's going to optimize towards that paying CPM at the same time, CPM auto bidding, they are great if your ads are performing extremely high to the click through rate. 14:49 So this gives us a nice natural segue then into another lever you have which is just simply increasing your click through rate. I'll use sponsored content ads as an example here because they're really the standard. The average sponsored content ad gets clicked on about .4% of the time. So a little bit less than half a percent. What that means is there are a lot of people seeing your ads without actually clicking. So if you can increase your click through rates, even a small amount, it means you can get significantly more traffic. You don't need to make your audience bigger, you don't need to change your bidding at all. You can really just change your ad to something that people want to click on more often, and you can start enjoying getting significantly more traffic. On the other hand, when you're in a rush, launching new ad creatives is a significant risk. You'll have to launch and potentially see a four to eight to even 12 hour review period for your ads to go through review. And if you don't have something else running at that same time, that's scary because you're trying to accelerate delivery and at the same time your ads are offline for several hours. To mitigate this risk, I would consider going back through old successful, creative and trying to find something that used to work. And maybe it's even from different channels, maybe you're running the same kind of thing on Facebook, or Google and you can go and try to borrow whatever has been successful over there. And here's a neat little hack. If you're running sponsored content ads, there is going to be a frequency cap that is actually pretty stringent to you as an advertiser. The natural frequency cap, at least used to be members can see your ad once per day, per account. And the only way that we could actually get more delivery, we could show more often than that once per day once per 24 hours, was to put additional creatives in the same campaign. And thanks to a wonderful rep named Natalie Gubman, I recently got informed about how the frequency cap is working currently. And she says a member can see one unique creative from an advertiser determined at the company page level, so not account every 12 hours, they cannot see this one unique creative again, within that 12 hour period. However, a member can see five unique creatives from that advertiser, again determined at the company page level within the same 48 hour period. So what that means is, if you can put five unique creatives, five different ads into your campaign, you can essentially accelerate delivery to your most active LinkedIn users who are part of your audience. Now, you may not actually want to test five separate creative, maybe you're running an AB test, and you only want two different creative running. Well, what I would do LinkedIn doesn't know the difference between ads even if they look exactly the same. So if you're trying to run two ads against each other, just duplicate those two ads. LinkedIn thinks that these are two separate ads even though they say exactly the same thing. And then if you're trying to do this AB test where you're trying to split the traffic evenly, it'll be really easy to roll all of those results up and combine the metrics for the ads that were exactly the same. So you still get great split test data. And you got to take advantage of LinkedIn's increased frequency cap and getting the word out quicker. Okay, here's a quick sponsor break, and then we'll dive into the ad formats that we're going to use for accelerated delivery. 18:27 The LinkedIn Ads Show is proudly brought to you by B2Linked.com, the LinkedIn Ads experts. 18:35 If the performance of your LinkedIn Ads is important to you B2Linked is the agency you'll want to work with. We manage LinkedIn's largest accounts, and we're the only media buying agency to be official LinkedIn partners and performance to your goals is our only priority. Fill out the contact form on any page of B2Linked.com to get in touch and we'd love to help you absolutely demolish your goals. 18:59 All right, let's see jump into the other ad types that will help you accelerate your spend. So the first ad type you'll want to concentrate on here is sponsored messaging. Now this is because most of the ad formats on LinkedIn are what I consider inbound. They're essentially putting a message out there and waiting for someone to come around from your audience to log in, see something and then click on it when they're interested. But with sponsored messaging that includes both message ads that used to be called sponsored in mail, and conversation ads, these are what I consider push marketing. They push directly into a member's messaging box while they're online. And they're a little bit exclusive, because each member can only receive one of these every 45 days. So while sponsored content, it's sitting in their newsfeed and if you're lucky, maybe 1% of people will end up clicking on it. These end up getting about a 50% open rate, which is definitely a minimal kind of reaction, but it is a reaction nonetheless. If you're trying to get the word out as fast as possible, having someone see an offer and then click to open it is definitely more than just watching it scroll by in their newsfeed. So again, if you're trying to get the word out fast, this is really the only ad format where you can kind of force someone to see something. I really love sponsored content as well, I don't think you should ignore that. But the next thing I want you to consider doing is stacking your ad formats. And that means using all of the different ad formats, all concurrently, because if your goal is to get in front of these people, no matter where they are, each ad format depending on where someone is on LinkedIn, and what device they're using, it means using a different ad format is much more likely to still engage one of these users, even if they were on their way to do something or we're going to be like a ship in the night passing by. The more ad formats someone sees you in, the more likely they are to click one of them. We've seen this when we do quarterly business reviews with our larger clients and LinkedIn comes to present. One of the things that they'll give us is a report, like a contribution report, of those members who saw more than one ad format, what the difference in their click through rate was versus someone who hadn't seen another ad. And we routinely see this number between about 13% and 30%. So someone is 13% to 30% more likely to click on your ads, if they've seen you in a different ad format before. So certainly, my recommendation is to use sponsored messaging first, then sponsored content, then text ads, and then dynamic ads. And I would do this all concurrently, all mimicking the same targeting. And this will envelop your ideal target audience in just a nice warm embrace a nice warm display ad hug. 22:00 The next tip I have for you is essentially a change in motivation. So there's this concept called FOMO, that many of you know, and it stands for the fear of missing out. This is such a strong motivation, a strong emotion that we as humans feel. We hate missing out. We hate knowing that there was a big party that happened last night that we could have gone to that all your friends were there, and you totally missed it. And you can use this motivation in your ad copy. Try ad copy, like don't miss it, put it on your calendar, only a few days left, limited seats remaining. Now, a note here on morals. So I'm not a fan of putting limited seats remaining. If there really are unlimited seats, you're just manufacturing fake urgency here. But if you do actually have a limited number of seats, then yes, say it. Let people know. You might miss this if you don't take action now. 22:56 Okay, this next recommendation I've been debating internally whether or not to share it with you. If you've been listening to me for long enough, you know how I feel about the audience expansion option. I hate it. I loathe it. I shudder every time I think about using audience expansion. I will say, though, as a very last resort, after you've done everything else, all my other advice here, and if you're still spending short of trajectory, it is one checkbox that you can check that will instantly give you access to a larger audience. So let's say LinkedIn, when you click that box inserts about 20% more people into your audience. LinkedIn is going to try to make sure that those are close to your ideal audience. And I think this is the only situation where I can see audience expansion making sense. Although I will say conclusively, I have never once seen a situation where I couldn't significantly speed up my spend using all of the other strategies here before I checked the audience expansion box. So I'd say maybe this is one in 100 chance that you'd even have to do this, but I have to say it. Okay, so now I'm gonna go take a shower after making that recommendation, because I feel real dirty. 24:11 The next one I've got for you is really just in case, you should ask yourself, Is this a brand new account? Is this an account that's been opened in the last few weeks that really hasn't had a significant amount of spend go through it? You should know that there is a glass ceiling on every new account to keep people from making giant mistakes. And what it does is it artificially limits your spend in that account to $100 per day. LinkedIn doesn't tell anyone about this. It's not written really anywhere, at least not that I've seen. And so what happens is, you'll be in this high urgency situation where you're trying to spend and the account will just stop at $100 for the day, and you'll be scratching your head going, I don't get it. My ads are active, my campaigns active I have plenty of budget. Why? Well, it's because of this invisible cap and your LinkedIn rep might not even know about it. So what you want to do is either file a ticket beforehand with LinkedIn help, or if you happen to have a LinkedIn rep, make sure you let them know to remove it significantly beforehand. So don't do this they have because sometimes it can take some time for them to respond. Ask several days in advance, hey, we want to spend a lot of money please remove this cap. Because nothing is more of a buzzkill than when you have $1,000 a day to spend and the account gets stuck at $100 and two cents. While everything's active. please learn from my mistakes. I've done this many a time and forgotten about this glass ceiling. There's also a setting that is actually kind of hidden and it's for good reason, we've talked about it before. And this is where you can rotate your creative evenly or optimize for click through rate. Now I want you to go and look and make sure if you have the option check to rotate evenly, change it. Get over to optimize for click through rate. The reason here is if you are rotating evenly, I call this the charge me more and show me less button. When you're in a high urgency situation, you do not want to be shown less. And my guess is you probably don't want to get charged more. So avoid that option, even if someone looked at it and thought, oh, this will help me do AB testing. It won't, it'll just charge you more and show you less. So in conclusion here, you're going to pay more for this accelerated delivery. So set that in your expectations, expect your efficiency metrics to take a hit, you are sacrificing your efficiency for speed of delivery here. Ayou won't have as much time to test things, so you'll really have to accept whatever performance your ads and offers get. So give yourself the best stab. Do as much testing as you think you can do without disrupting, but certainly put your best stuff on and keep it going. I'll also mention that it's much better to front load your ads. That means take all of these strategies into account and potentially spend more rapidly up front than you want. The reason is, if you have something like a webinar coming up, it's actually better the sooner people can get it on their calendar, just so they don't end up having something else like a conflict happen before they see your ads. So you'll want to front load there. But it's also just as important to understand that it's easier to slam on the brakes than it is to slam on the accelerator with ads. It takes much longer to find new ways, new audiences to spend more than it is to just simply bid something down, set a daily budget or pause the campaigns or ads entirely. When you are in high urgency, there is value in just being everywhere. Make sure you use all of the ad formats, make sure you expand your targeting where it makes sense. Okay, with that being said, I've got the episode resources coming up right after this so stick around. 28:06 Thank you for listening to the LinkedIn Ads Show. Hungry for more? AJ Wilcox, take it away. 28:16 Okay, hope you enjoyed that episode. I had a lot of fun recording it. I get a little bit passionate about this stuff as I'm sure you can tell. I'd love to share with you the resources we talked about earlier. But because one was a link to a protected deck, I can't share the stats with you here. So maybe just write them down or keep them in in memory. But check in the show notes. If you are new to LinkedIn ads if this is something that you are doing for your job, and you need to get up to speed quickly. The course that I built with LinkedIn Learning. The link is right there and you will love this course. It takes you from absolutely nothing all the way to yes, you can build and run your own campaigns and get started. It contains the same information that I teach in about my first hour and a half In person training, and I charge $500 an hour for that consultation and training. And the course itself is only $25. And it's even free if you have like a premium subscription to LinkedIn. So definitely take me up on that course it is well worth the investment. Both time and money. 29:18 Whatever podcast player you're on, please look down right now and hit the subscribe button. Because if this is good content for you, if this is gonna help you in your job, then I want you hearing more of it. And then please do rate and review in whatever podcast player you're listening on. I would love to feature your review here publicly for everyone. If you have ideas for the show, topics that you want covered questions, shoot them over to Podcast@B2Linked.com. And we love to take those into account and help prepare future episodes. We're always looking for great content. Okay, with that being said, I'll see you back here next week. Cheering you on in your LinkedIn Ads initiatives.

Most Ecommerce brands are starting to feel like they can’t beat Amazon and thus, they must join them. Ryan unpacks the benefits of joining Amazon and the things you need to watch out for if you do. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: So, Ryan, we've all heard the old adage, "If you can't beat them, join them." Right? Ryan Garrow: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So from what I hear on a daily basis in the conversion optimization world is that most eCommerce brands are starting to feel like they just can't beat Amazon, and thus, they must join them. If nothing else, they're looking to have a presence on Amazon so they can at least be found. It's becoming a huge search engine. I'm sure we'll talk about that. But I see a lot of good things that brands get from participating in the Amazon game, but there seemed to also be a lot of downfalls in doing so as well. So today, I'd like to pose the question, Amazon, fight or join? So Ryan, I think start just by breaking this down a little bit. What are the benefits to joining Amazon? Ryan Garrow: There are a lot. I mean, the easiest answer for that is volume, volume, volume. I mean, Amazon. There's no statistic that shows Amazon is not dominating the online ecosystem as far as volume of sales. They're over 50% every holiday season. They somehow made July into a shopping holiday because every retailer on the planet has low sales in July until Amazon comes along and says, "Well, I'll just put Prime Day out there." There are sales on Amazon. They have figured out how to remove friction from the purchase process better than any other retailer has so far in at least initially looking at it. The benefits of joining Amazon? There's a lot of volume. You can sell stuff. Jon: Okay. So what are the benefits to fighting Amazon? Ryan Garrow: Well, you enjoy pain. You like losing. The benefits of fighting it is you get to control a lot more of your brand. Amazon has been trying to do some things to improve that, but you get more control. You get customer data. It could increase your chances of having repeat purchases if they buy from your website. You get to personally handle that conversion optimization after the purchase, and you get to keep some additional margin. Amazon does charge for the platform when you sell. So there are some benefits to not selling on Amazon. Jon: If you were to choose to join Amazon, what would be your recommendations? Where should we start? Ryan Garrow: Whether you join or fight Amazon probably needs to start with what type of business are you. If you are a retailer selling other company's products through your website or even with a retail storefront as well, Amazon may not be the best place for you. Amazon, largely speaking, is the biggest retail. I mean, Walmart and Amazon are both massive retailers. Other people sell their own stuff on Amazon. Amazon also is a brand. They do have their own products that they sell as well. But as a retailer, it's probably less beneficial. Your margins are already smaller, and you're going to give another retailer some of that benefit. You race to the bottom when you're competing with the same exact product that other retailers are also selling on Amazon. If you're a manufacturer, I think there's a little more upside. You get to control your brand exposure on Amazon. As a manufacturer brand owner myself, I limit my retailers. I don't let them sell on Amazon. I want to own that and keep my cost as low as possible from an ad perspective. But the big key here too is you need to be able to protect your product. Hopefully, that's with some patents. Hopefully, it's a difficult thing for Amazon to maybe find your factory in China to have them make them cheaper for Amazon because they probably will. If you make or sell clothing, you better have a powerful brand. I mean, even Nike doesn't sell on Amazon right now. They went down that path and decided not to. I don't know the intricacies of their agreement and why Nike backed out, but Amazon is the biggest clothing manufacturer in the world. Most of the brands on Amazon for clothes are actually owned by Amazon, even if they don't say the Amazon name. It's just clothing would be difficult, but generally, most manufacturers should be considering it, at least in their process. Retailers, there's probably some different things you need to be looking at. Jon: Well, we've probably all heard the story about Allbirds, the shoe company, right? That Amazon went out and basically created a knockoff because Allbirds was selling so well on Amazon. As a consumer coming to the site, you really can't tell the difference. I've heard from numerous brands that the biggest downfall has been that they have a product that is easily reproduced or that Amazon... Maybe we should get into this a little bit, but I've even heard from people where they've done direct factory to Amazon shipping. So it's not Amazon Fulfillment Warehouse. Amazon then knows who's making the product, and then they contact those people and say, "Hey, we'll pay you a little bit more. Make it for us," or, "We'll do a much larger order if you make it for us," and then they lose their... The retailer loses the factory, and so it's something where Amazon is a double-edged sword for sure. That's why this is going to be such an interesting topic. Ryan Garrow: It is. Amazon basically is going to be frenemies with every company on the planet. They're a necessary evil for certain companies. Google and Amazon are very much frenemies. They both will say that, hey, their biggest competitor is... Google will say it's Amazon. Amazon will say it's Google. They're fighting over that search volume and that revenue from search traffic and paid ads, but Amazon is... I don't know this for sure, but I would argue probably the largest advertiser on Google and driving traffic to the apps into their website. So you have to go into Amazon with your eyes wide open, understanding that Amazon is aggressive. They are not your friend. They will stab you in the back. They will cut you if they get the chance. So you have to always be on your guard and looking at Amazon as, "How could Amazon steal this from me?" and just being operating as a paranoid brand owner or even a retailer. However you're operating on Amazon, protect yourself as often as possible, and look at it through the lens of, "If I was trying to steal this product from me or make money off of me, how would I do that? What would it look like?" Always use that lens on Amazon to see, "Does it make sense? Does it not make sense?" There's too much of a risk. There's a problem because even if you have a patent, which I'm sure Allbirds had some protectable intellectual property within their product. Amazon has more money than you, guaranteed, and they can fight you in court, and they can also probably have... They probably have enough smart lawyers on staff that they can say, "All right. Here's the patent. How can we get close enough to compete, but not necessarily actually break that product or break that patent?" It's probably going to get Amazon in trouble long-term, but in the short-term and where we're at right now, they are able to operate that way, and it's been very effective. I don't dislike Amazon, so don't hear me saying that Amazon is bad for what they're doing or how they're operating. You just as a retailer, or a brand, or a manufacturer have to understand what you're getting into in this relationship. Jon: Yeah, and I think that goes into why Nike left Amazon because Nike, I believe, originally joined on to fight counterfeits on the platform. The problem was is that it just wasn't effective. It actually made more counterfeits because they had more products on there that people could counterfeit, and then list and say it's a Nike product, and list it for cheaper than what Nike was willing to do. So then, it just became even worse for Nike. I think that's why they decided to pull out. That was my understanding. Okay. So if you choose to join, I'm hearing a couple things. Make sure you have a brand that you're selling that people know. Make sure that you have some type of protections in place not only for production of your product and manufacturing, but also on the legal or IP side with doing patents. What other things would you recommend if you choose to join into Amazon that brands do? Ryan Garrow: Based on my experience of selling multiple different ways with the same brand on Amazon, I would say utilize their FBA shipping. I don't necessarily think you need to go Vendor Central. So there's two ways you can go in there, Vendor Central or Seller Central. Jon: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan Garrow: Most of the time, I advocate for Seller Central because you get to control your pricing. Whereas Vendor Central, as of now, Amazon is not great at protecting your MAP pricing. They have incentives, and they will undercut. They have some things in their agreement in the past that they've since eliminated where they have to be the lowest seller. But I think just for controlling a brand, Seller Central is good. I think a lot of Amazon is moving towards that. They've even removed a lot of people from Vendor Central that probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. In Vendor Central, you sell your product to Amazon at wholesale as a retailer, and they buy a large volume typically to get you excited. Jon: Okay. Ryan Garrow: In Seller Central, you put your own listings up and are responsible for all of the content and selling it, and you're going direct to the consumer in a way on Amazon's platform. But then, in Seller Central, you can actually do seller fulfilled shipping where you're shipping it from your warehouses or your location, or your third-party fulfillment center is sending it, or you can do FBA, which is Fulfilled By Amazon, where you send it into Amazon, and then they ship it for you. They make Prime very easy. For most companies, I'm going to advocate for FBA. Some companies want to own a little more of the packaging process, inserts, things like that, be able to communicate with the customer a little bit better direct to the consumer, and that's where maybe a third-party fulfillment or sending out on your own warehouses makes more sense. But what we've seen is that FBA seems to be getting a little bit better placements or your organic rankings are benefited a little more from having FBA on your products. As Amazon goes to one-day shipping, same-day shipping for a lot of products, it becomes a disadvantage to say, "Hey, yes. We have Seller Fulfilled Prime, but it's going to arrive in two, three, four, five days," because there's a dissatisfaction to the customer having to wait that long. Amazon is really using their competitive advantage of warehouses all over the country and a distribution network that is unrivaled probably on the planet, and that FBA allows it. Also, their shipping rates are just ridiculously good. It's just so cheap. Jon: As they became even more aware with a few presidential tweets complaining about the deal they have with the Post Office. Yeah, so what about advertising on the platform? What do you recommend there? I mean, because it seems like if you're going to join them, you might as well promote your products on the platform. Right? Ryan Garrow: Yes. I mean, there's so much search volume. There are so many people going there to buy that advertising makes sense, and Amazon is, as of now, not a great platform for product research. It is not an easy system to go start looking... If you're going to buy a coffee cup, it's not a great platform to start by searching coffee cup, and filter your way down, and try to figure out what you actually want. At this point, Google is still better at finding the products you're looking for, and so by advertising on Amazon, you do get better placement obviously and can compete for that. The conversion rates are crazy good. I mean, I don't know if I've told you, but one of my brands, my conversion rate is 25% to 35%, depending on the amount of traffic I'm driving. Jon: No. That's a good return on ad spend. Ryan Garrow: Yeah. Well, it's a $15 product and I am paying between $1.75 and $2 per click. Jon: Okay. Ryan Garrow: So you need a high conversion rate to make it work. But when you are a price point that makes sense, 15 bucks, most people in the planet won't blink at that. You click "Buy" like it's worth trying, and you trust Amazon's brand. They've built a huge amount of trust and one of the most trusted brands in the world. They know that if they don't like the product they're buying, they can easily return it with no questions asked and get their money back. So there's very low risk on Amazon to buying, which is another reason that it's nice to utilize Amazon because they send a product back, and it's resellable. It goes back in their inventory. It's not a huge issue on that part. So I would advertise for most companies at least covering your brand names, ensuring competitors aren't there. If your product page is on Amazon though, we'll have competitors on them, so that's a no, and there is some risk as well there to be considered. You might want to be bidding on your own product pages because some [inaudible 00:12:30] their products, and I would always own a trademark. It doesn't matter if you're a retailer, if you're a brand. Owning a trademark and being able to register that on Amazon gives you advantages that are not available to companies that don't have a trademark. You get a storefront. You can get specific ads that are available to you that aren't available to other companies without a trademark. Trademarks aren't that difficult to get. I went through the process myself just trying to see if I needed to pay a lawyer 2,500 bucks to get it, and I was able to get one, but just by spending about an hour of my time. Jon: Right. Ryan Garrow: So any trademark, whatsoever gives you the ability to get some benefits. Jon: So that's not a protection angle, right? If you own a trademark on a term, can other people run ads on Amazon for that same term that you own the trademark for? Ryan Garrow: As of now, yes, but you get some additional ad placements that are only available to brands, which a brand has a trademark and you get a store URL. Jon: I see. Ryan Garrow: So you get the "amazon.com/" your store, and you get to put your products on there and curate your own website, if you will. You get to put your A+ or enhanced brand content on your product pages, or we've been experimenting to see if that actually does impact conversion rates, our own... I would call it CRI for the improvement, not CRO, which Jon would correct me if I said it was CRO. But at least seeing if that has an impact. Honestly, as of now, having it as a benefit, there's not much optimization or changes you can do that will materially impact your conversion rate at least that we've seen. Jon: Okay. So this is really helpful. I feel like I have a much better understanding of why I should join in. Jon: Well, what if I choose to fight? Right? Obviously, I like the pain. Right? I like losing. Right? So I'm going to do it. Forget Amazon. I'm just going to go DTC all the way. What are your recommendations there? Ryan Garrow: You're going to need to advertise on Google and Bing through Microsoft ads to keep Amazon from taking your traffic. So both on brand and on your product searches or service searches. Don't forget Microsoft ads. So many companies forget that and Amazon is all over Bing searches. It's really cheap traffic, and too many companies overlook it, so don't forget about that one. But then, if you're going to fight Amazon and not be on there, you really have to be on brand building mode. You are not just selling products to consumers. You are building a brand, and you got to do it aggressively. So think Nordstrom, Sephora. Those are strong brands. They are just retailers. They have some of their own products, but they have a loyalty that is unparalleled in the market. If everything else is equal, my wife will buy from Sephora or Nordstrom because she wants the loyalty points and she trusts the brand more than the brand she's buying from them. So loyalty programs are going to be very important to ensuring that people come back and buy additional products from you. That lifetime value is huge, and that's whether or not you're on Amazon or not. You need to be doing these things, but it becomes more important when you're deciding that Amazon is not going to be an outlet for your product. Jon: Yeah. I was just going to say, so first of all, I know that Nordstrom notes loyalty very well. Right? Ryan Garrow: Those are dangerous. You spend a lot of money to get a glass of champagne. Jon: Yeah, yeah. The 10-point days and all these other things that Nordstrom does is a Harvard Business School case study on how to do loyalty, so that's great to hear. What else should brands be thinking about if they're going to fight Amazon? Ryan Garrow: I would consider what I call a destination retail. So my wife has been passionate about retail her entire life, and so we actually have a retail store even though in this world of eComm, and that's where I spend my entire day, I know that retail is not the best place, generally speaking, to be jumping into. Physical storefronts are struggling. Malls are closing. But if you are looking at retail, which I think there are still some significant advantages to having a physical retail presence, you need to be looking for your brand beyond just a retail store. One of the best examples I've seen of building the brand and creating an experience at retail that is not just simply going into a store and getting something off a shelf. If you've heard of Magnolia like Chip and Joanna Gaines in Waco, Texas, there's literally nothing in Waco, Texas. Other than Baylor, there's no reason that anybody would ever go to Waco. It's not easy to get to. You fly to Austin, drive a couple hours, and it's usually really hot and sweaty. No reason to go there, but they have a destination retail store that I've been dragged there, and it's a phenomenal store. There's a reason that people flock there. They just retail other people's stuff. They have some of their own brands, but my wife's retail store can buy a lot of the same things that are sold at Magnolia, but they've done a phenomenal job at building and curating their brand and causing people to want to go shop from them even if they can get the same product cheaper at a store down the street or on Amazon. Not everybody is going to be able to get their own TV show and do all the things they've done, but at least begin studying what they've done and try to emulate some of the ways they've built that crazy passion and loyalty that causes people over the country to fly and land in Waco, Texas. I went there in August. Jon: Yeah. Ryan Garrow: Ugh, it is hot, sweaty, sticky, and... Jon: Husband of the year right here. Ryan Garrow: My wife was literally in heaven. It was like the closest she's going to get to heaven on earth, and that was Waco, Texas. Jon: But I think that expresses the power of brand, one, right, and how if you've done all that other work to build the brand, then if they were to move on to Amazon at some point, I'm sure people are going on Amazon and searching Magnolia to find their products. Ryan Garrow: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: They're not finding them, so then they have to go elsewhere. But I think that definitely speaks to the power of brand and why that's going to be massively important if you don't want Amazon to go after you. Ryan Garrow: Yeah, and I would say even if you're going on Amazon to sell, you need to be building a brand. So don't take that as, "Oh, I'm going on Amazon, so don't worry about brand." It's always going to be important if you want to grow and scale, but just the magnification needed to compete with the... just sales volume, and ease of conversion, and how we are training. Amazon is training us to just do nothing, but look on Amazon and click "Buy." Sometimes I don't even price check. How sad is that? I'm super cheap. I spend all day on a computer in eCommerce, and I know that there are always better deals or easier ways to get it, but it's like, "Okay. It's going to be $3 more expensive on Amazon. I probably don't even care. I just want to get it because it's going to show up tomorrow and I don't have to worry about it." Jon: Right. It's the convenience factor, right? Ryan Garrow: It is. They've done a great job. Bezos is the richest guy in the world for a reason. He's created a monster that is phenomenally successful and very good at getting people to purchase. Jon: So what have we not covered that you feel would be really important for folks to know about the Amazon fight or join question? If they're considering this, what else do you think they should know? Ryan Garrow: I mean, just be aware of customer data, what that looks like. How valuable are repeat purchases to your brand? Does everybody buy a product you have no margin on the first one and you need them to come back and buy another one or something different to actually make the brand work and the lifetime value work? Because Amazon owns your customer if you sell on Amazon, so you have to treat them as a retailer that owns the customer. So Nordstrom, if you sell at Nordstrom, Nordstrom is going to own the customer, and they don't care if they ever buy your brand again. Amazon doesn't care if they will buy your brand again. They want the customer. So treat it like a retailer and just always go with your eyes open. There's always risks to copycats no matter where you are. If you find success, people are going to copy you. So that's just one of the functions of success. You'll always have it, but it gets, again, magnified on Amazon. Even eBay sellers will take your Amazon listing, and start selling it on eBay, and shipped direct to the consumer off of eBay from Amazon. The order will come in on eBay, and they will go immediately, automatically, usually with bots, buy it on Amazon and have it shipped directly to consumer with a gift receipt. They don't even touch the product. I have some people selling my $15 product for $25 on eBay. We're going to be a registered brand on eBay eventually at this point. There's other things that are higher priority right now in our brand growth, but just know that people are going to take your stuff, and it's just part of... what comes with success. But I would also keep some of your products on your website. Don't give Amazon everything if you choose to go there. You want to have a reason for people to maybe get your gateway drug product like the thing that people always need to start with you and that create high lifetime value customers. But try to get those customers to come back to you through your website. Once they've experienced your brand, you always want your URL on the packaging if possible because Amazon can't control your packaging, like control what goes in the box and the smiley face that goes with it, but keep your website on the packaging. A lot of companies are printing their loyalty program on the packaging. So if somebody goes to Amazon and buys, they are able to still be a part of the loyalty program with that purchase. Again, that's a way of getting that customer data off of Amazon to you as the brand so you can communicate directly. But I think step one for most companies is at least test it. There's no reason not to test what's there, and how much volume, and how it operates, so at least you can better see. If you're going to fight Amazon, you'll have some of the insight into what goes on in Amazon, and you better be prepared internally to take it on. Jon: Which brings me to a really great question, I hope, if I do say so myself because I'm about to ask it, but I'm wondering. What kind of tools exist out there to help brands on Amazon? There's going to to be a whole ecosystem of these, right? Ryan Garrow: Oh, yeah. There are tons. There are repricing tools, which can be very powerful. As a retailer, price is a huge driver of the Buy Box and the whole algorithm behind. If there's 20 people selling that same product, they all get mapped together. There's one listing officially. There are sometimes rogue ones that Amazon eventually will catch. But then, only one of those 20 retailers gets when they click "Buy," and so there's part of the algorithm that's price. If you're cheaper, your chance to get in the Buy Box are much higher. So repricing is a big deal. There's a partner of both of ours. SellerActive here in Portland does a great job at that. There are companies that will help you with listings to make them appear better. So if you have A+ content, they'll get like photographs or images in there. Product images are huge. So make sure you have good product imaging because that will be a big part of the clicks you're going to get. I'm telling most retailers to be ready for 360 images. If you can put 360s on your website, do it now. Have those ready when Amazon does release that to everybody. Right now, it's been held back to some of the larger brands at this point. I think some of it is just a bandwidth issue. 360 images are large, and it's just a... If you put a few million products all at one to have 360 images, that's a lot of server space, but just be ready. Jon: Well, if anyone has that server space, it's Amazon. Right? Ryan Garrow: Yeah, it's probably... They have it. Whether or not they're going to use it for themselves or lease it to somebody else, it's there. I would also say there are some companies out there that will own your brand on Amazon for you, and they will do the advertising. They will act as a retailer and help control Amazon. If you're going to go directly on Amazon through Seller Central or Vendor Central, you have to have some time internally to dedicate to managing that and controlling it. So if you've got retailers who are selling on there and you don't want them violating your MAP, it's going to take some work on your end. Some of these companies who will take over your brand on Amazon will help you control that. So if you just don't have the time, there are some of those companies available. Most brands now can handle Amazon direct, but it still does take some investment of time. Jon: I feel very well educated at this point. I feel like there's so much to think about, but you've done an amazing job of breaking this down, so thank you. Any final thoughts on this before we head on our way? Ryan Garrow: Just don't be scared of Amazon. Yes, it can be dangerous, but it can also be really fun, and it can be very beneficial. But if you'd go in just scared of Amazon, I think you're going to trip up, and you're going to have more issues rather than if you look at them as a potential upside or partner. I think just be optimistic rather than pessimistic when you're looking at Amazon, and I think you'll do a lot better. Jon: That's a great perspective. If you do make the leap on Amazon, hit Ryan up, and he'll help you advertise on there as well. Ryan Garrow: Yeah, or even just set some strategies so you don't lose a bunch of money. Jon: There you go. Always has proved valuable for me, so thank you so much for sharing today, Ryan. I really appreciate it. Ryan Garrow: Thank you. Jon: You've made us all smarter about Amazon and deciding whether we want to fight or join the cause. So have a wonderful day. Thank you for the interview today. Ryan Garrow: Thank you.

Ryan unpacks the different social media platforms and how you can use them to sell your product. He explains where you should start and then where you can test the waters next. Jon and Ryan also provide an update about what you need to know about the recently released Facebook Shops. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Hey everybody, just a quick note before we jump into this episode, we recorded this episode on Selling on Social before Facebook Stores was launched, but everything we discussed still applies and is relevant. But stick around until the end, we are going to record an update on selling on social media with some details on Facebook Stores. So enjoy the episode and be sure to stick around towards the end, and you'll get an update. INTRO MUSIC Jon: So Ryan, it's probably a bit maybe cliche to say that everyone is on social media these days, but as a digital marketer, it's true, right? If you're not selling on social media platforms, are you really even trying to succeed? The more I thought about this, the more I thought at The Good we don't do anything around driving traffic, which obviously would include advertising or selling on social media. So I thought, "Why not learn a thing or two from Ryan and your 6,000 clients experience at Logical Position today?" So Ryan, I'm excited to have you, to school me on selling on social. Ryan: Oh man, it's such a big topic and such a big opportunity, I think, that so few brands are capitalizing on, fascinates me. Jon: Well, this will be fun then. So Ryan, let's start with the big picture, when I say social, what channels does that really include? Ryan: I would say when most people say social or selling on social, social advertising, they're most likely referring to Facebook and Instagram, it's the big 800 pound gorilla in the industry. But there are quite a few other platforms that I would probably bucket into that social platform and the advertising and traffic driving that you can execute there. You've got one that a lot of people forget, and it's probably unfortunate there, but Twitter, you can still advertise on there should you want to. Pinterest has some advertising, Snapchat, you can advertise on. LinkedIn is a social channel that a lot of e-commerce companies forget about, there's still some value to be gleaned out of there for e-commerce, but it is pretty lead gen heavy. Jon: Yeah, I love LinkedIn. Ryan: LinkedIn is great for our prospecting and finding just people that talk about it, there's a lot there. And I think it's under utilized for a lot of companies, but it's also, I think, confusing to a degree on how you sell on a business social tool. Do you have any e-comm clients that are doing anything on LinkedIn that you know of? Jon: No, I don't, but I thought that's such a great one that you could run some highly targeted ads on, pretty easily. Ryan: Yeah, if you know who your target market is, and if it's a... Just a conversation with a guy that was selling to doctors today, and I was like, "Well, if you're selling it to doctors and you know that there is a certain role at a doctor's office that always is responsible for finding your product or deciding to buy it, you could target all of those people on LinkedIn very easily." So I think there's opportunity there, I don't think it says much about, on LinkedIn at least, getting click-buy, it's part of the process generally. But with some of the other platforms too, like TikTok, for some reason has just jumped out at me over the last, just two weeks. We've actually had a bunch of clients reach out and say, "Hey, we want to get onto TikTok and do some advertising, how can you help us?" That came out of left field for us, we're like, we know it's there, but we were so focused on Facebook and Instagram with them that we hadn't been pushing for other channels. So, that was on us to a degree, so I think there's some opportunity on TikTok. And then the other one that I think a lot of people maybe think of differently, YouTube has a very strong social component. But it's because it's run through the Google Ads platform, most people don't bucket it under social, but I think there's a component there that, to a degree, could be looked at that way. Jon: Yeah, a lot of people are sharing YouTube videos, right? And it's got a massive comment thread on videos, and they do make social sharing on there easy so that's a good one to think about. Okay, so I had never thought about LinkedIn in the way you're talking about and really hadn't thought about YouTube, so that's really interesting, that's good to hear. And TikTok, I just feel like maybe I'm too old for it, but that's a whole different situation. Ryan: You and me both, that's probably why I didn't have it top of mind. I was like, "TikTok, what are you talking about? That's just Gary Vaynerchuk trying to get people to like his social stuff. Jon: Yeah, but I mean the minute he's talking about it, it's probably the immediate time to jump into it. Okay, so when I'm thinking about selling on social, are we really talking about advertising or actually selling, right? So for instance, I've seen brands that do Instagram Ads, right? And I've seen brands that actually make their posts shoppable, and you can actually complete a transaction on Instagram now. So are we really talking here about advertising or are we talking about actually selling? Ryan: Well, I think it's both. I mean, I like the old adage, always be closing, always be selling. Like if you're an e-comm site, you need to constantly be thinking about how are people going to find me and buy my stuff. And I think if you have the ability, because not everybody can check out on Instagram, or every brand doesn't have that access, let me put it that way, not every site can just flip a switch and automatically be selling on Instagram without leaving the platform. It's still in controlled level, you have to have enough followers or you have to be invited into betas to a degree. But you want to sell as often as possible, and I think having that extra channel, if you can get that conversion on Instagram without them leaving, you do it. But all of them I think you're going to be advertising on, even if you can have the checkout on Instagram rather than your site, you're still going to be advertising to draw people to that checkout or to your page, and constantly try to find new users. And I think Facebook and Google both have a lot of creepy data, it's not a surprise to anyone, and I think Facebook even gets slightly more creepy, but it is phenomenal for marketers. We can upload a list of our clients, and then Facebook's algorithm can go find everybody on the world that looks like your current customers because they're more likely to be buying. If I buy your product and like it, you go find everybody else that has the same demographics as me, whether it's on a farm, has four kids, has too many businesses, there's maybe 10 of us out there. Jon: But all of them will buy. Ryan: But all of them will probably buy your product. So be thinking about both, I think, because of the algorithm. A lot of people forget about this, but the Googles and the Facebooks of the world, the dominant ad platforms, they've created a free platform for everybody and they make money by ads, and so they have an incentive to get people to click ads. And so on Facebook, not everybody that follows your brand, Facebook and Instagram, not everybody that follows you will see your post. And so promoting posts, getting your ads out there, you have to feed the beast, to a degree, and make sure that you're leveraging the ad platform appropriately to get the right content in front of the right people. Jon: Got it, okay. So where do you recommend brands start then? What channels and how would you best utilize those channels if you're just starting out? Ryan: Some of it depends on the size of the organization and the budget to start with. If you're already a $10 million online brand and you hadn't advertised on social, that would surprise me, but it probably exists somewhere. You could probably start a little more aggressively than somebody that hasn't hit their first $100,000 in online revenue yet, but the general rule of thumb that I have for most brands is start with remarketing on Facebook and Instagram. It's all done through the same platform on Facebook, since they own Instagram, and if you're remarketing to people that went to your site and didn't purchase, you'll get a good gauge of what kind of potential Facebook and Instagram have. So if people that went to your site didn't buy, come back and buy through remarking ads at a rate that makes sense for your company and your products, it indicates there's potential for prospecting or finding new users that haven't heard of you yet. But if people, through remarketing, are not coming to your site and buying, it would lead me to hypothesize that finding new users is not going to be the best opportunity for through that social channel, because remarketing generally always works better than prospecting as far as the return on investment. So start there, and also understand that when you move beyond just the remarketing pixel on the remarketing ads, social is not like search, it's not a demand capture. People, for the most part, are not going to a social channel to find a product to purchase, generally you're interrupting their flow of connecting with friends and family or coworkers, and convincing them to click an ad to go outside of that flow to look at a product, it's something they probably hadn't been thinking about before. Jon: Yeah, that's such a great point. You really think about, at least in my business, around conversion, right, it's all about that capture and not the creation portion. And that's a really great point that if you are able to create that demand and then make it easy to do the capture or conversion at that point, then you're really going to see some great return on that ad spend here. Ryan: Yeah, and understand too, that generally as you move up the funnel of purchase, the return on ad spend drops, but I think it becomes more important as you're driving people to your site off of a social channel, to focus on that conversion optimization. You want them to be sticky and you want them to buy then, if at all possible, remove as much friction as humanly possible on social traffic because once they leave, go back to the social platform, you're no longer top of mind, now you're going to be remarketing to bring them back in. So it probably extends the purchase life cycle, if I could say it that way, when they're coming from a social channel. Not always, depends on how impulsive the purchase is, but you just have to generally be watching data very closely on social as you're looking to get sales there. Jon: Okay, so let's say a brand has been successfully selling on social already, what's the next step you would recommend? Ryan: Probably the same as with all of your marketing, it's test, test, test again, test again, test again, and not ever be satisfied with where you're at. You'll be trying out new ad sets, maybe if you haven't done video before, you need to do video, you're going to be testing new platforms. And so this is one where it's easy to get stuck on Facebook and Instagram and assume that that's your social media marketing, that's it, you're done, you've got it covered. But if you take me for example, I don't know how many years ago, maybe... gosh, I'm getting old, but what is it 15 years ago that we started on Facebook, maybe? I don't remember when it came out, but probably a while ago, and I was on Facebook for a while, thought Instagram was really stupid, why would people just not want to read anything, they just want to look at pictures, and then realize, "Oh, Instagram is pretty cool." I no longer really go to Facebook, I am on Instagram because it's easier to scroll through the feed maybe, but I'll go in maybe once a week and check on Facebook. My mom's on Facebook now, she's not that interesting to me to follow on Facebook. She's retired, she sits at home and it's just not as interesting. And so people are going to constantly be moving from platform to platform, I think. And I think as Instagram ages, we'll probably move to something else. People have moved to Snapchat, maybe it's going to be TikTok. Jon: TikTok, there you go. Ryan: Who knows? But you want to be making sure that you're aware of the demographic shifts, maybe the baby boomers start moving on to Instagram in a heavier flow, and all the gen-xers like myself were going to fall off and go somewhere else because we don't want to be hanging out with our parents on social media. Jon: Yeah, this is what's really interesting to me about social media, it's so easy... and I think as an outsider, obviously I'm not printing campaigns, but it's so easy to target different demographics because it's pretty clear what channels they're on. If you want to advertise to the teenager, you're going to advertise on TikTok, that's just generally where they're going to be right now. They're not going to be on Facebook, we know that. But if I want to advertise to Ryan's mom, I'm going to go to Facebook, right? It's just where it is. So yeah, that's something to definitely think about, but what I'm hearing from you is the core tenants of digital marketing apply to social, right? So whether you're doing ads from Google or you're doing ads on Facebook, it's really the same core tenants, it's just a little bit different, perhaps, on the execution. Ryan: Yeah, and the important metrics are going to be a little bit different. So whereas Google's algorithm is fairly advanced, and we have a lot of really quality data around quality score, for example, we know what goes into it, we know what makes up a quality score, and how to manipulate it to get a higher one. Whereas some of that information on Facebook isn't as readily available, and there's more testing and measuring to figure out what is going to work and what's going to be a good click through rate. It may be different for different ad sets, and there's a lot more visual ad types you can create on Facebook than maybe just text ads and shopping ads on Google. Understand it's different, but it's all the same thing, we're always looking at data and deciding what to do based on what the data is telling us. And on their demographic point too, there are young people on Facebook. And so if you do want to target younger people, you just set your targeting for younger people. You may not spend as much as you could on, say, Instagram or on maybe TikTok and be going to teenagers, but there's millions and billions of people on each platform so there's a lot of eyeballs. Jon: So would you recommend then that when a brand is looking to choose a social channel to sell on, that demographics would be their first elimination point? Or I'm hearing from you that, obviously there are, yes I agree, there's younger people on Facebook as well, perhaps, but would you still recommend demographics be that first deciding point where to start at choosing a social channel to sell on? Ryan: That's probably going to vary quite a bit depending on the brand and what you're selling. I mean, almost across the board, I'd probably recommend most companies start for the first time on Facebook, Instagram. It's a mature platform, you really know what to expect out of it, people expect to see ads, click ads and go somewhere else, and get basically their flow interrupted, it's not an uncommon thing to see an ad and click. I mean, I remember one of the best ads on Instagram was somebody that showed me a paddleboard surfboard with a rocket engine on the bottom of it. And I was like, "I didn't even know I needed that until I saw that on Instagram, and now I need to spend $2,000 on that even though I don't have-" Jon: Now you can be lazy during your workout. Ryan: Exactly. So start with what's known, where there is a lot of talent to execute for you, because there's not a lot of people right now that are TikTok marketing experts on the planet. And so if you're going to go off and start on TikTok, it may be much more difficult to get the goals that you want achieved there. Start there and then branch out as you see data, so set the demographics, knowing let's say you're going to target the younger demographic, and so people that are 18 to 24. You start on Facebook, Instagram, set your target demographics there, see how many there are, see how they respond, because you have a lot of... a mature platform is just easier to work on generally, knowing that you probably want to end up on TikTok as well, Snapchat, and expand out of that once you have a baseline to say, "Okay, I know that Facebook, Instagram, I get this return on ad spend, let's see how TikTok actually works for my brand as far as a return." Jon: So, I get asked this question all the time, Ryan, what's a good conversion rate, and people don't like my answer, generally, because- Ryan: Better. Jon: Yeah, one that's improving, right? That's generally how you should be thinking about it. Is there a goal for brands when it comes to selling on social, should we be thinking about specific goals or is there a percentage of a brand's overall revenue you prefer to see coming from selling on social? What are the metrics that you think are most impactful, and are there general standards for those metrics that people should be aiming for? Ryan: Unfortunately, no, it is very similar to the CRO question that it's an improving one, and you've got to look at your brand and who's buying, why they're buying, and where are they buying. So if you sell CNC machines online, you're probably not going to get a lot of direct conversions out of social for that. But it's an awareness thing, you can do some good top of funnel work there, that maybe it's not necessarily the final attribution is coming from social, but it is on the path. And so I think it's only going to get more and more complex as we continue to get more ways to engage with people through different channels, that I would probably never be able to put an exact number on it. But one thing I do like doing, and I do this in my own brands, I keep each marketing team siloed to a degree, so the Google Ads group, the social media group, I generally, personally at least, don't want the same team doing both because I want them both competing for a share of my sales. I want them to say, "Hey, the social should be bigger." Okay, if the same person's running Google and social, they may not care which one's bigger, they just want to push where it's maybe easier. And I think there's always a chance to win on social or win on Google, but I want hungry teams that are going to make that channel work no matter what. And so I would say, I always want it to be more but I also don't want to lose money. Anybody can sell a million dollars through Facebook, but some companies, it might cost you 20 million to sell that one million and so it's not worth it. So you just have to be aware and monitor what's happening and where that social channel fits for your brand. One of my brands, I haven't even gotten it on social advertising yet, I'm still Matt trying to max out Amazon and then I'm going to try to max out Google, and then I'm going to try to push on social. So there's so much you can do that it becomes mind boggling at some point to where you can be pushing a brand. Jon: Awesome. Well, I think we've sufficiently tackled this topic. Do you feel the same? Ryan: I mean, it depends on who's probably asking that question, but I feel like at least we've covered a topic and we've gotten some good insights. Jon: So Ryan, we promised at the start of this episode that we'd provide an update on the just released Facebook Stores, and I'm counting on you to educate me because quite honestly I heard about it, but I did not read anything about it. So can you give us a quick overview of what Facebook Stores is? Ryan: Yeah, so welcome to the world of e-comm, where things change more rapidly than we can produce podcasts, but it means it's fun and things are constantly changing. So Facebook Stores is basically what it sounds like, it is a store for your business on Facebook properties, mainly Facebook and Instagram. Allows people to checkout on the platform, many companies were, at least, aware of the checkout on Instagram feature that was in closed beta for a while, so it's basically all of that rolled into one. Facebook has an entity they're trying to release quickly to help local [inaudible 00:21:06] that maybe never had a website, offer the ability to transact online, at the boiled down version of it. Jon: Okay, and do you think this was in reaction or response to COVID and a lot of retail not being open? Ryan: I think that was the initial thought, but I think it was also quite an opportunity for the Facebook engine to push into e-comm with a lot of people paying attention, and that's a very easy release at that point. Jon: Great, and so it's separate, because I know Instagram is owned by Facebook, but it's separate from, or is it somehow linked to Instagram? I know you could sell on Instagram for some time now, not necessarily in a store, but you can do shoppable posts. Ryan: You can do shoppable posts, but those still take you to your website for transaction. There was that swipe up feature that was very popular, if you get over 10,000 followers, you get automatically put into it if you're a verified Instagrammer. A lot of value to those, we've seen some great data, but this is the next iteration of that, which is you don't have to leave the Instagram platform to transact. Once you've transacted on Facebook or Instagram, they store your data if you want them to so you can easily transact without having to put any data in. So just kind of try to make it as seamless as possible. So a great [inaudible 00:22:26] I believe, but one of the things people are going to realize as they start doing their research is when you have such massive organizations that try to move nimbly and quickly, there's some struggle. So by no means is Facebook Stores just [inaudible 00:22:41] working for everybody as they think it would at this exact moment. In fact, even me personally, my wife and I are trying to get our businesses up on Facebook Stores, like with Shopify a couple days after it came out, did not work. It was not just a click a button, you are going. You've got to have some things in place that will allow your business to work, and so obviously you've got to a Facebook page, so if you don't have [inaudible 00:23:08] out there. If you're going after people that are in the younger [inaudible 00:00:23:14], younger than baby boomers, you should probably have an Instagram profile. You need to have a platform that can easily get products into Shopify, and so this where Facebook and their post called out a few partners in the intro that came out right after Zuckerberg's live thing, where they say, "Hey Shopify, BigCommerce, WooCommerce, ChannelAdvisor, CedCommerce, Cafe24, [inaudible 00:23:44], and Feedonomics can all [inaudible 00:23:46]. I don't think all those integrations are perfect yet, and I've tested on some Shopify sites where you can add the Facebook Commerce Manager, get the Facebook shopping plugin, the Instagram shopping plugin and it's be live [inaudible 00:23:59] not perfect. So I think that most businesses have to realize going into this is, if you've never been online before [inaudible 00:24:08] to accomplish that you've ever done. If I'm seeing articles and blogs from people, the e-comm experts not being able to do this, the switch, just with their knowledge, then I would say at least test measures and things, test [inaudible 00:24:22] things. If you get stuck, there are going to be a lot of blog articles, there are going to be a lot of help things within Facebook trying to solve these problems, but you're going to need some patience for sure. Jon: So Ryan, knowing all of that, how does one get access to Facebook Stores? Ryan: You need to go in and set up Commerce Manager, and so that's step one, like a great digital marketer that I am, I just go Google, Facebook Commerce Manager and find it. It wasn't as simple for me to find inside the Facebook platform, you also want to have a site like a Shopify, BigCommerce that already has a plugin for it, so you may need a plugin on that. Our Shopify site, we had to put a plugin on the site to get to send inventory over to Facebook, you've got to have something sending those product details over, along with inventory, what's available. Every business that has a Facebook page should be able to do Facebook Stores, but that doesn't automatically open up Instagram Stores, or so we're finding. There's a lot of misinformation out there, so you need to do some research on your own and see your business is able to do certain things. There were some articles that my wife came across that said, "Okay, if you try to do an Instagram Store, you can't do a Facebook Store and vice versa." I don't think that article is necessarily true, but the Instagram Stores or the Instagram checkout is still closed beta if you go to that page on Instagram. Jon: Okay. So, we should state that there's a lot in flux here, right? And we're doing our best to get this information out quickly, but things are changing rapidly is what I'm hearing from you as well. Ryan: For sure. So we're recording this today, and people are going to get access to it probably in a week and there's going to be constant change until we get to a homeostasis in the Facebook Stores environment, and so we'll probably have to do an update a little bit later. But as of now, just know that there's a lot of moving pieces at this point, and if you're on a platform that doesn't have an integration already built into Facebook, it's going to be much more difficult for you to get that thing set up. Jon: Okay, so what does Facebook cost? I assume they're not doing this for free. Ryan: It'd be nice if everything was free, but unfortunately Facebook is a business, and they have an obligation to shareholders to make money, nothing wrong with that, they do provide a service for free for people getting their own profiles. But as of now, they are charging 5% per transaction, now that is great in some areas, it does say that includes taxes and processing fees. And so that could be good, but I do have some struggle with that because if your business already has nexus in Washington, for example, you need to be collecting all of the sales taxes in Washington, which add up quickly. If you sell in Seattle, you're getting charged almost 10% sales tax up there, that that 5% just can't cover taxes. So that's how I know a lot of this is going to be changing and updating, because I'm not sure that it built out everything for tax collection perfectly. Because when you jump into e-comm and you have stores like mine and they sell on Amazon, their website, retail storefronts, I mean there is so many potentials for tax nexus they had to be collecting that Facebook sells a unit there, I'm on the hook actually as a merchant for that. And so that's where stores need to be aware that that's there. If Facebook doesn't collect the tax, nothing on them, I mean, they're not coming to Facebook for that, they're coming to the person that actually sold that product on Facebook for the tax. Jon: Right. So definitely something to keep track of, and I think we both know in e-comm, and there's whole companies dedicated to just helping you figure out your commerce tax situation. And it's down to the street level at times, local taxes and sometimes stuff like that. Ryan: Yeah, good luck in California, it's just not going to happen. Jon: So since this was released, and it is in beta as we were kind of talking about, what do you think is still being worked out with Facebook and their Stores platform? Ryan: Some of it, I think, is going to be that cost, like they want to have something that works and keeps it simple. But as of yet, I haven't seen how you can simplify commerce to a flat rate for everybody in every possible scenario. So I do think that's going to adjust somehow, and Facebook is potentially opening up for a local store that's never had a website, to sell across Facebook, which is a massive opportunity, but also adds in massive complexities to a small local business that [inaudible 00:29:10] had to consider before. Especially if you're in Oregon, where we don't have sales tax, that's just kind of a foreign thought to us that, "Hey, I can go anywhere I want, I buy something and whatever it says on the tag, I actually pay versus not having to worry about tax." Whereas I go to Washington, there's all kinds of taxes added on that as an Oregonian I'm just not thinking through. So an Oregon business, you have to be aware that most of the country charges sales tax, and if that collection's not there, how do you do it? And maybe Facebook has taken some liability in some of their fine print saying, "Hey, we're going to charge 5%, and we'll make it right, some how, some way." I don't necessarily think that Facebook shareholders [inaudible 00:29:50] too keen on that. Jon: Yeah, not for permanent, right? But I could see them doing that upfront to get users and to kind of buy their way in. Ryan: Yeah because it would be great if you could simplify processing and taxes into just one number to [inaudible 00:30:05]. You're just taking 5% and I'm done, that would be huge, and I think a great opportunity. Jon: I have to think, yes, we're in Oregon, so not really up on every other State sales tax, but I have to think that there's some States that have more than a 5% sales tax, right? So even just then, they would be losing on processing or any of the over right away. Ryan: Yeah, and it could be maybe they're pulling that from their small business fund that they talked about, where they say, "Hey, we're going to release a 100 million to small businesses." And so instead of giving them ad credits, they're just going to use some of that to collect the data. Because I think some of it Facebook needs is that data, because they've not done enough online commerce to actually have the data to know this is what it is and here's where things can go bad. Unless they hired some high up people at Amazon that have all this data that they could pull with them, I doubt it. Jon: Yeah. Well we all know that, and this perhaps is for a whole nother podcast, but we all know Facebook loves their data, so they'll get it one way or another. So is there anything we didn't talk about, you thought I should have asked you about Facebook Stores today? Ryan: I don't think so, I think as a business there's very little reason not to get into this channel and test it. Every business is going to have a different level of success with it, but if you're going to open up a massive channel, I think there's more risk to not exploring it than there is to explore it and put some of you inventory there and see what happens. I mean, I'm going to get all of my businesses on there that I can to say, "Hey, I want to be available where people are trying to transact." And if Facebook is successful at creating an e-commerce platform to rival the Amazon's or Google Shopping's, then I for sure want to be an early adopter into that system so I can get as much data as I can get to make smart decisions for myself and any of our clients. So I would say, get in, take some risk, take the time to study it, and just see how you can make it work for your business and your specific situation. Jon: Yeah, that's great advice. I mean, there's still millions and millions of people on Facebook, so it's a massive audience, right, and you might as well try to throw your store up there and see what happens. So, okay, great. Well, this is really helpful and I think it's a great add on, as we said, things are going to change rapidly with this, but hopefully this gets people started. They know where to look now, they have some understanding of what it's going to cost them, and why they should do it, and I think that's a great add onto this episode. So thank you, Ryan, again. And I look forward to doing an updated show in the future as things settle down with Stores. Ryan: Yeah, looking forward to it. Thanks, Jon.

On this episode of our Golf series I chatted with Director of Instruction at Southern Hills Country Club Mr Ryan Rode. Ryan was born and raised in Oklahoma, grew up on the 11th hole out at Oak Tree East course so naturally golf was all he knew. He then played in college and decided to chase the golf profession shortly after graduating. Realizing a 9-5 job was not going to cut it. So Ryan went to work with and for some of the biggest names in the business all over the country, for legendary coaches like Hank Haney, Cameron McCormak and finally coming full circle back to Oklahoma to Gaillardia as Head Pro and then in the last year to Southern Hills CC in Tulsa. Ryan has an extremely impressive selection of young Oklahoma Amataur and professional golfers that he works with. No doubt you'll be seeing him walking the ranges on tour in the near future. Follow Ryan on Instagram for all his tips and a look into Oklahoma's future golf stars. @rrodypga and follow us for all there is to talk about in Oklahoma Golf @thisisoklahomagolf.Cheers. 

How do you get to the top of the restaurant business? Ryan Pernice has the answers - Despite the fact that there's this mythically high failure rate for restaurants, it is very tough. But if you go into it clear-eyed about what the challenges are, and you've orchestrated your life and your day-to-day to be able to meet those head-on, it's not easier, but your chances of success I think are much greater. - So Ryan, hey, thanks for coming out man. - Yeah, absolutely. - I really appreciate it, this is great. So you've been in the restaurant, hospitality industry for many years, you've got three amazing- - Many years. - Many years, three amazing restaurants. - They're all still open. - All still open, Roswell, Alpharetta. So give me your backstory, I'm interested in your journey, like how'd you get into it. - Yeah sure, so I'm a local guy, I went to Roswell High School, we moved down here from New York when I was maybe nine years old, my dad worked for Delta. - Where abouts in New York? - So born in Huntington. - Oh, okay, all right. - So we lived there, zero to nine, dad worked for Delta so they moved us here right before the Olympics, and we grew up elementary, middle school, high school here. Go Roswell Hornets. Then graduated from Roswell, went to school in upstate New York, lived in New York City for a little while and kicked around some restaurant stuff. I did restaurant consulting, which felt a little weird, being 21 and trying to tell restaurateurs what to do. - So you at 21, you got into the business. - Well, I got into the business when I was 14. So there's a local restaurant, it by the old mill in high school called The Roasted Garlic, and they actually had one here in Clock Tower, a place right down the road. But anyways, so I worked in that family all through high school, cooking and serving, and doing all sorts of back of house stuff. And at one point, my dad said, "Look, if you really like restaurants, "you know there's a school for that." So I said okay, so we explored Cornell University's School of Hospitality Management, looked at restaurant stuff there. Then graduated, restaurant consulting out of college, felt weird about that after about two years, and so I went, opened a restaurant called Maialino, with Union Square Hospitality Group from Danny Meyer, and that certainly wasn't mine, I was just on the opening team. So there was nine front of house managers when we opened, and I was the Operations Specialist. A great title because it doesn't mean anything. And basically that meant I was the office troll who, while everyone else is having fun upstairs, they had me doing tip sheets, inventory control. We did the restaurant, Maialino's, as well as the rooftop and room service, so every case of carrots we got in was split three ways so I had to build a spreadsheet that would say, okay, we got $100 worth of carrots in, $80 of that is for Maialino, $10 is for the roof, $10 is for housekeeping, or room service rather. So all that sort of foundational, nut and bolts, operations-level stuff, I kind of did all those back then and it was a great boot camp in here's how you do restaurants. - Right, and that's a huge and important piece. - Yeah, yeah. - You got of kind of know where the money's going, where the products are going. - They call it the restaurant business for a reason, there's two parts of that.

You've seen it everywhere you read online and heard it almost everywhere you listen... there's an ad with some call to action leading you to buy or transaction money for a service. But whyyy? Podcasts and blogs aren't free. Not by a long-shot! So Ryan and I discuss some of the popular ways they make money to continue bringing you free content across media (including us).  

Do you want to know what makes sales both EASY and HARD at the same time? Find out on C-Level with Guest expert marketer and salesman Ryan Sauers of Sauers Consulting Strategies - [Chris] On this episode of C-Level, I'm speaking with Ryan Sauers, President and CMO of Sauers Consulting Strategies. - So Ryan, so thank you so much for coming out. You got several books out, you've got a consulting firm, you do a lot of speaking. I'm really excited about today's episode because we get to talk about sales and marketing and how that plays in the workplace. But I'm really big on people's journey. So tell me yours. Like, how did you get started? How did you get into all this? Where you from? - Absolutely, well, thanks for having me, Chris. I appreciate it. I'm actually an Atlanta native. - [Chris] Cool. - So, in today's world, that's the outlier, I guess. But, yeah, I always had an interest in sales, communications, human behavior, marketing. And even when I was an undergraduate, I kinda parlayed communications, public relations, marketing courses to get to kinda what I thought I would do. And yeah, these things you name have come together because I have a passion for improving human performance and all the things you named. And so my story has been year by year, step by step, person by person, relationship by relationship, and it's kinda led me to where I am now, which is crazy, it's busy, but it's a good busy. It's fun. I stay, I have my hands on a lot of things but I love it. I absolutely love it. - So where in Atlanta are you from? - Originally, I was in like the Decatur-ish area. - [Chris] Yeah, yeah. - And then I lived in another part of DeKalb County. I now have raised up three daughters. One in college at Georgia Tech, one a junior who's gonna play soccer in college, and then my baby, I call her, she's 12. And she's in middle school. My wife of like 23 years, but we are now in Gwinnett. So, one time, long-term I'm gonna to get to Florida and live by the water. That's my final. - [Chris] Yeah, there you go. - But, I promised the family we would be here for the while but yeah, that's where we are. - [Chris] It's cool. So, what was it about, was it something early on that you knew that you wanted to learn more about sales and learn about marketing? Did this start like before school, while in school, out of school? - You know, that's a great question, Chris. I remember my dad telling me on the trip to college, he was showing me like we'd get to a fast food restaurant and he said, "Somebody sold that concrete, "somebody sold that building, "somebody sold this real estate space, "somebody sold this sign." And I kinda halfway listened. But I realized even when, like at high school, I did the yearbook sales. And I did it mainly, for anybody listening, when they're all tuned in later. I did it because you could get out of three class periods and go off-campus. - [Chris] Right? But I'd get a way to get out.

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Ryan Burklo on the show to discuss financial planning for small business owners.  Ryan Burklo, RICP® is a financial planner, host of the podcast Holistic Finance, and co-owner of Quantified Financial Partners. Through his work as a financial planner, he works with medical practice owners to protect their practice, keep them financially efficient and assist with their eventual exit. In this episode, we discuss: -How to manage debt financing and make it work for you -What is tax efficient cash flow planning? -Retirement options for small business owners -The conversations you need to bring up with your financial advisor -And so much more! Resources: Quantified Financial Website Holistic Finance Podcast Ryan Burklo Twitter A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!  Check out Optima’s Top Trends For Outpatient Therapy In 2020!   For more information on Ryan: Ryan Burklo, RICP® is a financial planner, host of the podcast Holistic Finance, and co-owner of Quantified Financial Partners. He lives in Seattle, Washington with his wife and two kids.  After learning his son had a stroke while in utero he became an avid volunteer for Pediatric Stroke Warriors.  He learned much about the medical professionals who cared for his son and truly enjoyed working with them both on a personal and a professional level. Through his work as a financial planner, he works with medical practice owners to protect their practice, keep them financially efficient and assist with their eventual exit. His firm and his personal mission is to simplify finances so that you can focus on what you enjoy most. Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hey Ryan, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. Ryan Burklo:                 00:06                Thanks for having me. Appreciate the invite. Karen Litzy:                   00:08                Yeah. And you know we're getting onto the end of the year and people are starting to think, look back on the year, look forward to next year talking about their businesses and maybe how they can move forward, expand, stay the same. Lots of stuff. But today we're going to talk about kind of the business side of things. And I absolutely love having people like you on the program because I didn't go to school to be a financial planner. I don't, I don't know what I, you know, this is not my specialty. So I love having folks like you on because I feel like I learned so much from you guys, plants and seeds in me that make me think, Hmm, maybe I need to make some changes in my practice. So thank you for coming on. Cause I'm definitely excited. Ryan Burklo:                 01:06                Yeah, I again appreciate being on. I actually started laughing when you said you didn't go to school to be a financial planner cause I was about to say neither did I. I think very few of us actually go to school to officially become a financial planner. I think it just kind of molds it's weighing falls into our lap. You know, life's events occur in the next, you know, you're, you know, you're in the industry and so it's very interesting. Had you told me that I would be a financial planner when I got out of college, I would have said you're drunk. I love what I do. Karen Litzy:                   01:41                Yeah. And here you are helping and I should mention that you do work with a lot of medical practices. Ryan Burklo:                 01:50                Yeah, that's really a majority of our focus is helping medical practices on the business side and merging that with the person side. Cause eventually we all exit our practice in some way, shape or form. And it turns into the personal side. So, you know, the two are married, yet business owners tend to only focus, they focus more on the business side because you know that that's the fun side. That's what they do every day. Karen Litzy:                   02:19                Exactly. Exactly. And so it's great to have people like you guys to help guide us through that. And now, you know, I've been taught, this has been in the news quite a bit. I had, you know interviewed someone a couple of weeks ago about debt and we hear debt a lot in the news. Mainly the focus is student loan debt, but there's all kinds of debt, right? And when you're a business owner, you may be in debt, you may not be in debt. But my question is, can debt work for you? Can it be a good thing sometimes. Ryan Burklo:                 02:56                Yeah. Yeah. I mean the quick answer is absolutely yes. You know, you brought up the media and everything we're hearing in the news and right now it's a lot of student loans. But you know, oftentimes there's also, you know, just debt is bad is the mantra and you should pay it off as fast as possible. And in some scenarios that makes sense in other scenarios that doesn't, you know, really depends on what kind of debt it is. You know, credit card debt for the most part isn't the best that I have because it tends to be high interest rate, right? You're getting in the double digits, 16, 17, 20% or so. But then there's other debts. Student loans can be one of them. You know, mortgages on real estate and other debts that are lower interest rates and you have to look at it at, if I'm going to put a dollar towards that debt, if I put my dollar elsewhere, how would that act? Ryan Burklo:                 03:52                How would that do differently? Right? And so the simple example of that is, you know, right now you can get a mortgage really, really inexpensive, you know, 3.8% or something like that on a 30 year mortgage. And so if your dollar can be put back into the business or put elsewhere and beat 3.8 at a relatively low low risk, well then you'd be better off putting your dollar elsewhere. Cause then you'd be making money on your money so you're leveraging that debt so your money can work harder. Whereas the credit card debt that I mentioned, you know it's a 20% interest rate. Well now I used to be 20% that's a lot harder and the risk is a lot higher. Karen Litzy:                   04:38                Got it. So, so for instance, if you take on the debt of a mortgage, whether that be, you know, let's say you bought a building for your practice or you bought space for your practice and like you said, the interest rate is 3.8% then that might be a good thing for your business because you're putting that money to better use for you or the equity is in the building is good. Is that kind of what you mean? Ryan Burklo:                 05:07                Well, to put it in another way, if you had $1 million of cash or $1 million sitting somewhere and you went to buy real estate and real estate was worth $1 million, we get to put the whole thing down, the million dollars sitting wherever it's sitting versus getting a debt and having to pay interest on that debt. You have to analyze what could that million dollars would be doing for you, and if that million dollars could be doing something better than a 3.8% yeah, we were just talking about why would you give the full million dollars to the bank. Got it, got it. And then you have the flexibility between it. All, right? Even if you're, maybe if you're just breaking even some people will get nervous about that too. We'll, again, you've got $1 million. How much more can you do with other stuff in your business because you've got that rather than just giving it to the bank, what type of flexibility do you possibly lose? Karen Litzy:                   06:15                Got it. Got it. Ryan Burklo:                 06:16                So that's just a simple example that I like to use. And that's not to say that you shouldn't pay off some debts. It does go by case by case, but you have to look at what your dollar could be doing elsewhere. And does that make more sense rather than only looking at it, well, Ryan, I'm going to pay more interest over 30 years. That's 100% true. And what could that dollar the other dollars be doing over the next 30 years? Karen Litzy:                   06:42                Got it, got it. So it could mean the difference between investing it into something that's going to give you a higher return or putting it to use elsewhere instead of hiring another doctor. Ryan Burklo:                 06:54                Well, another position that's going to grow revenue by X percent, that might be the better solution. Karen Litzy:                   07:04                Got it. Got it. See, this is why, you know, my brain does not work this way. This is why I need someone to kind of break it down and explain it to me as if you were explaining it to like a fourth grader. Ryan Burklo:                 07:18                Yeah. Well, my industry doesn't like to do that, but we like to confuse people. I try to make it as simple as possible because that annoys the crap out of me. Karen Litzy:                   07:25                Yeah. I appreciate that. All right, so that's a great way that we can kind of make debt work for us. If you have, are there other ways, I guess that you can make debt work for you? Any other easy, simple examples? Ryan Burklo:                 07:48                I threw a couple of examples just in that one. It's really about, again, it's just leveraging what you currently have. And so if you can get a loan, well, you know, let's just say we have a bit of a widget maker, right? And the widget maker needs to buy a machine to make more widgets. And they've got, they can go get a loan on it for X percent or they can just buy it in full. Well, what makes the most sense for your business? How are you leveraging your money to make it work as hard as possible for you? So it's a constant analysis of leveraging where the leverage is. Does it make more sense, can your money work harder outside of giving it to the bank? Karen Litzy:                   08:43                Got it. Yeah. So if you were to pay in full and you can make more widgets and sell more widgets to make more money, that might make more sense than making payments on that piece of equipment. Ryan Burklo:                 08:54                Exactly. Karen Litzy:                   08:55                Got it. All right. Excellent. Now I got it. Thank you so much. Sorry for being a little slow on the uptake there. Now the other thing that I really wanted to talk about is this idea of tax efficiency, cashflow. So in going through your website, I saw this and I thought, hmmm. Karen Litzy:                   09:16                This is really interesting to me because I don't know that I'm being as efficient as possible. So can you explain what tax efficiency cashflow means under the lens of, you know, your small business owner? Ryan Burklo:                 09:31                Yeah. So there's two sides of taxes, right? There's the taxes that you're going to pay now, right. Where the income that came in the door minus the deductions and everything that we can take as a business owner, what's leftover and what we're going to pay on taxes from that on the business side as well as from the income side and that's based on the rules and laws that are in place this year, 2019 then there's the tax side of what am I going to get taxed on 15 years from now, 10 years from now, 30 years from now, depending on where my money and my assets are sitting. That's the side that most people don't really consider because what they're only considered is I want to pay as little money in taxes this year. Karen Litzy:                   10:21                Yes, yes. Right. Ryan Burklo:                 10:24                So the next question you have to ask yourself, okay, 10 years from now or five years from now or whatever time period that is, where do I think taxes are going to go? And obviously we can't predict this. Oftentimes it depends on who's in office and what's going on in the economy, all that kind of fun stuff. But if you're of the opinion that taxes are going up, should you have a lot of money and assets where you have not paid taxes on yet? Karen Litzy:                   10:54                Yes. All right. I got it right. Ryan Burklo:                 10:56                Yeah, exactly. Because you've deferred the tax. So essentially if it taxes went up, now you're gonna pay more in taxes. Conversely, it taxes go down within, you wanted to defer the tax. And the problem is, is we don't know. And so much of this is, Karen Litzy:                   11:11                It's a gamble. Ryan Burklo:                 11:13                It's a balance is what I put in. So we talked about financial balance quite a bit and it's because we don't want all of our eggs in one basket, right? We don't want all of our assets to be tax deferred because what happens if tax go up? Conversely, like I just said, if taxes go down. Whereas we have our assets in different buckets now we can actually control what tax bracket we're in five, 10 20, 30 years from now. Just like kind of what we're doing right now in terms of lowering our tax bill this year. Karen Litzy:                   11:47                And so when you're looking at balancing and not having all your eggs in one basket, where would those eggs be? Ryan Burklo:                 11:57                Yeah, so it depends on what you're building in your medical practice or in your business. If your plan is, you know, take a solo practice, you know, at one doc and you know, the chances of a one doc practice being able to sell it is not very high, especially they're required. They're the ones that bring in the money anyways, right? You can't sell something if you're the person that you're trying to sell. So oftentimes those types of practices, they have to build side retirement accounts. Okay. Right? These are your traditional IRAs, your simple IRAs, your standard retirement accounts. And so you could be putting a bunch of money into those accounts where you deferred the taxes. So that's one asset. But we could be talking about, it's also an event. Conversely, if you've got the multiple doc practice, we've had a couple of partners and maybe it's an inside, say on, you're actually transitioning one doc out. Well, how do you consider the taxation of the business? What's the cost basis, and then how are we going to sell it? Oftentimes in insider sales, what they call that, oftentimes no one writes a lump sum check and says, here you go, doc, you're gone. It's normally let me pay you in installments over the next 10 years. I see. Okay, so now you have more taxes going on there. Karen Litzy:                   13:27                Oh, cause you, yeah. So you, if you are the doc that left the practice, you're paying taxes on that money that is coming to you in installments. Ryan Burklo:                 13:37                Correct. And if you're the doctor bought them out to pay that doctor, you need the revenue of your practice to be doing a certain amount. So there's taxations on both sides of that equation. Karen Litzy:                   13:50                Right, right. Oh my gosh. These are things like, I really thought you got bought out in one lump sum. That's why when you said that I started laughing, I'm like, Oh, okay. Yeah. I guess installments does make more sense. Ryan Burklo:                 14:04                Yeah. Do lump sum sales occur. Absolutely. That's not, that's not what normally occurs. What normally occurs is here's a 10 year buyout plan. Karen Litzy:                   14:15                Got it. That does actually make a lot more sense. Ryan Burklo:                 14:20                So yeah, the steps that I have our clients consider is, you know, which type of practice or which type of business are you, are you wanting to build for one? Are you building the business where you're at? And essentially you just kind of run off into the sunset and business kind of goes with you or you trying to build a practice or a business that you can actually sell. And early on it's kind of hard to know that, but as you're growing, you start to picture, you start to build towards one of those. And once you know that now you can get more efficient with your money and what's going on and where to put it, how to get after it. While it's taking into considerations, obviously we don't want to pay a lot of taxes right now, so how does this all come together in one cohesive plan? That's the conversation that people should be having with their advisors. Karen Litzy:                   15:14                Great. No, this is great. Yeah. And you know, we, you sort of mentioned the 401ks and setting up for retirement and things like that. And you know, I think we're, like I said, we're going into a new year, we're going into 2020, and maybe there are some listeners out there who are newer practice owners or perhaps they have not thought about their own retirement at the moment because they're building up their business. But can we talk a little bit about how one goes about setting up a retirement plan again, under that lens of a small business? Ryan Burklo:                 15:55                Yeah. So, you know, really depends on, you know, how many employees we've got. What type of plan do we have any employees that are what we would call a key employee. And so what I mean by key employee, if you have an employee that if  they quit or left and it either cost you a lot of money because they were the customer service side of the business or they were the office managers. So now you've got to go train and hire someone else and go do their work. So you can build in a retirement plan that, that helps keep that employee active and engaged in yours. And you're a business. And that can also be part of that transition that we were just talking about as well. And so, so, so much of it is what is it we're trying to build? Ryan Burklo:                 16:47                If we're looking with a starter business that you were just talking about and if you've got a couple employees, you know, it's looking at something like a simple IRA. That way it's low cost, easy to set up. You can set up matching type of contributions for your employees. You know, you can do like a 3% type match where you can go as low as 1% in the simple that allows your employees to be able to contribute and you match. Now they don't contribute, then you don't have to match. Right. And it's low cost. The 401K side of things is more, it's better for when you have a lot more employees, like 20 plus because there's more costs involved and it gets a little bit more intricate. That's when you can start to design it and really mess with a bunch of different things. And because you can mess with a bunch of different things, it costs money. Karen Litzy:                   17:40                Got it. So if you have a couple of employees, I like this simple IRA, a 401k for a larger company. How about if it's just you, you're a solo practitioner. How do you set up, what is your retirement plan look like? Ryan Burklo:                 17:58                Yeah. Yeah. So you could do a set by IRA if it's just you and you don't plan on hiring any employees you can do the traditional IRA route as well. Then there's Roth IRA, so you can still do that, that standard stuff. The SEP has more, has a higher contribution limit than say the traditional Karen Litzy:                   18:16                And what does SEP mean? So for people who aren't familiar with what that is exactly. Ryan Burklo:                 18:27                Yeah. So the simple IRA, well, I'm sorry, you mentioned the SEP IRA, sorry about that. So if you're looking at the SEP IRA, we're looking at a simplified employment. I'm sorry, I've got that all backwards now. The simplified employment pension is what that stands for. So SEP, S E P simplified employee pension. Okay. And the reason they call it that is, is just for yourself. And you're kind of setting yourself up for your own retirement plan, which is why the word pension is in there. It gets a little confusing. It's pension. Most people think of a pension has guarantees. It's not necessarily guaranteed, it's just setting yourself up with a plan for retirement. Karen Litzy:                   19:10                Got it, got it. So as a solo practitioner, you've got a couple of different options, and again, this is where sort of you're taxed now or taxed then, is that right? Depending on like a traditional versus a Roth. Ryan Burklo:                 19:28                Correct. So the traditional side is what they would call qualified money. That's tax deferred. You're deferring paying the taxes this year, you'll pay it when you start to pull the money out. The Roth IRA is you're paying the taxes this year on your money, it grows tax deferred and you can pull the money out, tax free passed age 59 and a half. Karen Litzy:                   19:54                But with the Roth IRA, if you make a certain amount of money, you can't contribute to it. Is that correct? Ryan Burklo:                 20:02                Yes, there are limitations. There are what they would call a backdoor roth IRA option where you can do, you can kind of go round that rule and there's a bunch of implications there depending on from taxation standpoint. But in general, there are some income limitations to do a direct contribution to a Roth IRA Karen Litzy:                   20:26                Yeah. And again, does that matter what state you live in or is that a federal thing? Ryan Burklo:                 20:32                That's a federal thing Ryan Burklo:                 20:38                IRA's contribution is $6,000 contribution limit below the age of 50. Karen Litzy:                   20:46                Right, right. Okay. Awesome. And like I have sort of a mix of all of these things, but I've been, you know, kind of contributing to this for many years. So let's say your in your thirties and you don't have any of this setup yet, are you done? Ryan Burklo:                 21:08                Not at all. No, not at all. I mean, unless, unless you're planning on retiring when you're age 31 then maybe. Karen Litzy:                   21:17                Right, right, right, right. Ryan Burklo:                 21:19                You know, step one, have a conversation with a professional that understands what you're building for. And I know we're talking about retirement plans, but you know, I'm really of the opinion of what, what do you have set up for yourself prior to a retirement plan? Like if you don't have, say an emergency fund set up, start there. Like you don't have to contribute to a retirement plan. The retirement plan is not the savior for your financial status. It really isn't like you can have all of your money outside of retirement plan and actually still retire. Ryan Burklo:                 21:57                There's this misnomer out there that when you have to put everything into a retirement plan and you know, for retirement only purposes, yeah, that's a good place to put money. But what can happen to a 30 year old prior to retirement over the next 10, 20, 30 years? A lot. A lot, right? Practice, growth opportunities, buying a house, selling a house, a bunch of different things. So having your money in what we would call a liquid type of asset where you can actually get after it without having to pay a bunch of taxes and penalties is something to really consider first prior to a retirement plan. Karen Litzy:                   22:41                Yeah, that makes sense. Because like you said, a lot can happen between your thirties to retirement at 70 or 75. Got it. So setting up that emergency fund and looking at your, kind of what we spoke about earlier, looking at your debt ratios and how can you make that work for you and look at what taxes you're paying now and how you're paying them. And then finally then looking at, well, what do I need for retirement? What do I need to do for retirement that makes sense for me right now because I can put money elsewhere. Like you said, maybe it's into real estate buying a home or something like that. Oh my gosh. There's so much to think about. Ryan Burklo:                 23:23                Yeah. The biggest thing, I've already said this once, I'll say it again. You know, I was talking about taxes. It's also where your money sitting. Again, don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you have your money in different sovereign account, you know, some in retirement plans, some in just a straight investment, some in real estate, some in savings. When you have that kind of diversification of where your money's sitting, how much more flexible is your life just from a financial standpoint? Karen Litzy:                   23:52                Yeah, I would think much more flexible. Ryan Burklo:                 23:55                A ton more flexible because of everything sending or retirement plan and you want to pull some money out to put into the practice. That might be the best thing to do, but you probably didn't pay taxes and penalties. Right, Karen Litzy:                   24:07                Right. So then you're kind of losing money there. Exactly. Karen Litzy:                   24:12                No, that makes a lot of sense. Lots of sense. This is really good stuff. Thank you so much for sharing all of this. Now, something that I know you guys do is you look at people's sort of financial wellbeing, if you will, but you also look at the person themselves, right? And so what are some things that maybe we can look at as ourselves at our business kind of reflect upon for next year? Like what, you know, cause I know that your process is a little bit different. You're really looking at not, like I said, not just the business or the cashflow, but you're looking at the person and their goals and visions and things like that. So how do you, what advice do you have for listeners out there who kind of want to get their financial house in order? But I'm sure there are some things to think about before you even have that discussion. Ryan Burklo:                 25:13                You know, there's maybe two or three things I'll say to you, to your question. The first and foremost, and this is often not spoke about, and this is going to sound probably kind of weird, is what is your philosophy with your finances? What is your value? Right? So in my family, when we'd look at money, right? It's not about, especially in medical practice and naturopath, some physical therapists, right? Like typically you're not getting into the industry to make a ton of money, although that might be a byproduct you're getting into it to help a bunch of people, right? So the value of the money oftentimes when asked that question is, well, I want to help as many people. Well, to do that, my practice has to be very successful. Ryan Burklo:                 26:02                Like without the cashflow coming into the practice and building that growth in the practice. How are you helping more and more people, maybe it's a different way, but what does that philosophy, what that does that that alone will have you direct where your money's going. Okay. And then step after you have that kind of philosophy. Step two is going to be more around where is it you are currently at? Like, how do we, how would like, you could do a quick net worth equation, right? Like add up all of your assets, checking accounts, savings accounts, retirement accounts, real estate, add up all your liabilities, student loans, cards, mortgages, and then so track the two numbers. That's your networth as it is today. And if you did exactly what I just said, we actually listed out your assets in one column, listed out your liabilities on the other column. You just got a lot of your balance, your balance sheet on one page. How many people I've ever seen that even though that's a simple activity to do. Karen Litzy:                   27:09                Yeah. Yeah. Great. Ryan Burklo:                 27:12                And then you can look at what you’re building next year. Okay. If your plan is to hire another doctor or buy real estate or invest in your practice more, what's your plan? How are you currently sitting and how could you possibly do that if you don't have liquid cash and liquidity to do that? Well now you're first, you know, your first step next year. It's actually having some money set aside that's liquid or accessible to do that. Karen Litzy:                   27:41                Yeah. So really like you said, having your philosophy, your values, and your goals. Look at what you have and what you don't have and see if you can help make a plan for 2020 I think that's great advice. Ryan Burklo:                 27:57                Yeah, it's, you know, money in America's taboo, right. It's a taboo topic to talk about it. We don't like talking about it. We don't even know half the time we don't even talk to our children about it. Right. And it's a taboo factor. It's a business factor. It's all this wrapped in one and for someone to take, especially as business owners, you know, we're wearing what sturdy different hats. One of those hats needs to be CFO. Right. So in your, hopefully we're taking a day out of the business to look at how the business is financially and that could be an exercise for that. Karen Litzy:                   28:33                Yeah. I like that. Taking a financial business day. Ryan Burklo:                 28:39                Yeah. Karen Litzy:                   28:40                I really love it. I'm going to start doing that. I have to put it into my calendar cause you know, if it's not in the calendar it doesn't get done. Ryan Burklo:                 28:48                Yup. I'm like you, I get it. Karen Litzy:                   28:51                Yeah. Yeah. This is great. Thank you so much. Is there anything that we kind of didn't touch upon that you're like, Ooh, I really wanted your listeners to get this info? Ryan Burklo:                 29:02                You know, the biggest piece that I want your listeners to get and really anyone to get is have conversations about money with someone you know and trust. Karen Litzy:                   29:14                Yep. That's great advice. Ryan Burklo:                 29:15                It really is that simple because it starts there. Karen Litzy:                   29:21                Yeah, you're right. It does. And we don't talk about it enough. I know I'd have, I probably don't talk about it enough and need, probably need a little more guidance and things like that. So I think that's great advice. So have more conversations about money with people you trust is great advice. And now my question that I always ask everyone, speaking of advice is knowing where you are now in your practice and in life, what advice would you give to yourself right out of college? Especially knowing that what you said at the beginning of the podcast here, but as someone said, you'd be a financial advisor. You'd be like, what? Ryan Burklo:                 30:03                I think it would have been slow down. Mmm Hmm. Karen Litzy:                   30:08                Yeah. Ryan Burklo:                 30:09                I was your traditional person that got out of college and said, I want to retire early. And so I hit the ground running and I started just grinding away. And not that that's a bad thing, but you know, as I've gotten married and have kids, I look back at that time and I'm like, you know, I could have done a couple of different things. I'd just slowed down and it wouldn't have affected me in a negative way the way I thought. And even if it affected me in a negative way, it might've been worth it. Karen Litzy:                   30:37                Right. Yeah. A lot of people say that same thing and it's always kind of slowed down and you know, enjoy where you are in the moment and you are not alone in that train of thought. For sure. Well, Ryan, thanks so much. Where can people find you? Ryan Burklo:                 30:55                Yeah. So if you want to go to quantifiedfinancial.com and you can find all the information you could possibly want about me, whether you like it or not. Karen Litzy:                   31:07                Perfect. And of course we'll have a link to the website at podcast.healthywealthysmart.com under this episode. So one click will take you all to Ryan's info about his company and their philosophy and how they work. And I highly suggest you click on over there. So Ryan, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. And we did a nice podcast swap, which I always love to do. So thanks so much. Ryan Burklo:                 31:35                Absolutely. I appreciate being on. Karen Litzy:                   31:37                And everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great a couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.     Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

This weeks guest is Ryan Narus. Ryan is a double graduate from Wake Forest University with an undergrad in Psychology and an MBA with concentrations in Operations and Marketing. Graduating in 2009 left him unable to find a B2B sales job, so he settled for car sales. Flash forward 4 years later and he won several awards, wrote a book, and discovered he was completely disillusioned with Corporate America, so he started a mobile home park business. Now he has been a part of 10 MHP deals spanning 1,245 pads and over $20MM in acquisitions, all with starting with more student loan debt than cash to invest in deals. He is going to share with us how to destroy all our excuses!Links: http://www.archimedesgrp.com/Connect more with your host Samuel Knickerbocker at:https://www.facebook.com/ssknickerbocker/?ref=profile_intro_cardhttps://www.instagram.com/ssknickerbocker/https://howmoneyworks.com/samuelknickerbockerWelcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast. Each week, we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild the newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started. As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon if you will, your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're going to find this book on Kindle, Amazon and their website Sam Knickerbocker com.Welcome back to fuel your legacy. And as always, we have some more incredible guests coming on. And today we're talking somebody who has made his millions he's crushing it in the mobile home park industry. If you've ever thought who owns that trash heap over there. I'm just kidding. His are probably nicer than the average. But no. So Ryan, he was fed a lie when he was younger, much like, probably most of us are you who are listening to this, that if you study hard to graduate from top universities, you're going to get a job, and everything's going to be hunky-dory and you're going to retire with ease and everything's gonna be fantastic. Well, he found out much like I'm sure you're finding out, which is why you're listening to this podcast, that not everything turns out as advertised. Thankfully, he has rebounded, really got into his rock bottom, and launched from that with a solid foundation. And now he's here to help you understand, hey, kind of where did that aha moment happen? How did you launch and how did he overcome the fear of failure? So I'm super excited. Ryan, take it away. Awesome. First, of foremost, Samuel, I want to thank you. I'm flattered to be here. We have a ton to talk about offline, because we're both huge fans of a very Reading and Writing I haven't even told you I've written a book which we can get into again offline but yeah I am so pumped to be here I really am and I don't have anything to sell I am literally doing this because I want to help you the listener escaped corporate America cuz it is awful awful awful man and you know what stinks about it it's that you're forced for this line which you hinted at which is work hard in school you'll go to a good college and then from there you'll have a job and then you work really hard at that job and then you get to retire. Well, it turns out like quite literally none of that is true you can work hard and still not to go to a good school. You can go to a good school I went to Wake Forest University, a very good school made the on Becky list. And so quote-unquote were elite or whatever, because people are on Becky's of the world, are paying to get their kids in on fake scholarships. Right so like a good school, not Ivy but a very good school is no guaranteed job. Oh my gosh, don't get me started about that. My wife's a huge Full House fan. So I like to give her trash for that good, but it's like did I went to Wake Forest twice I went once to get for undergrad, I got my degree in psychology and statistics, literally, to be a salesman. I wanted to be in sales. And I figured what better way to sell them to understand the psychology of the people you're trying to persuade. And it paid dividends, especially because I got a statistics minor, which also helped me optimize my selling schedule, which we can I did Moneyball statistics to opt I was a car salesman, I optimized my day based on a whole bunch of data I put together which is cool. But long story short, even after graduating with first an MBA, there's no gear I hadn't no guaranteed job coming out of it and both times I was going out of undergrad and grad. And I found myself stuck at a job where I did not want to get promoted because I hated it. And I didn't find any meaning or purpose in it. I found myself not wanting to go up. So not wanting to and not wanting to stay put. And then it's like, well, I'm making too much money here. Where am I going to go? Because I've adapted a lifestyle that has become part of my identity. And it's not just a sunk cost of racking up student loan debt and putting it a bunch of hours and years playing the office politics game, but it just becomes part of your identity. It's hard to let that go especially if you're used to a certain lifestyle, right? So you're living a middle-class lifestyle, you drive a certain car, you go to certain restaurants, you have certain friends, really hard to let that go. To give a teaser about where I'm going with this. Eventually, I gave all that up and moved into a mobile home. Chase my dream. Sosacrifice is a big part of where I'm going with this but to kind of go back so we don't do a huge Quentin Tarantino. Its where my journey started when I was in, obviously, when I was in high school really when even before that when I decided Wake Forest was my dream school and I wanted to go I did everything I could to get it. And I did. And I had several key moments in my life where I realized if I don't get my stuff together as I got like 1980 on the essay T, other PSAT so in the average at the times, this is when it was based off 1600 Wake Forest average was 1320. It wasn't even close. So I was like, Okay, well, we've got to get this score up and flash forward. Several years later, from my freshman year to my senior year, I scored a 13 to one out of 1600. So I got the average as T score. Then I had slightly above the GPA and I got accepted the way I can. It was like a dream come true getting to go to my dream school, I loved it. And I was following that trajectory, right? Like, hey, go to a really good school, you have a really good job when you come out. Well, turns out, I did it. It turns out I got a lot a job down. So I graduated in oh nine. So you can't be like, well, you just graduated right at the start of the Great Recession, well, actually had my job locked off, locked up before the economy took a tumble. It was that I picked the wrong job. Because I didn't know myself well enough. I didn't self assess well enough to know who I was at heart. So even though I had a psych major, and I took a ton of classes that basically browbeat you into the really trying to come to the realization that you need to understand who you are, what you like, and what you do not like, or you will make a decision based on what you think other people want you to do. What Are you real? Whether you realize that or not? Whether you're consciously going well, I'm going to do this because I don't want to make dad unhappy? Or you're going, Well, no, I want this. But really, do you want that? Or do you want the world so for example, investment banking, I know a ton of investment bankers that are doing it, quote, unquote, for themselves, but really, they're doing it because they want to impress other people. So the thing that I came into really, really hard and fast is I didn't have my dad was a college professor and marketing. He was not a psych person, right? He wasn't there to tell me, Hey, you really should figure out like really drill down into who you are at heart and what you want to be when you grow up. I didn't have that. And so I picked a job that was selling. It was a sports sales. And so I was like, Oh my god, sports and selling done right. This is going to be my life. And it ended up being I tricked myself into literally taking a telemarketing job, which was horrendous. And then It was like July, June or July of 2009. After I had graduated answer, everyone who just graduated who was going to get a good job, got a job. And so I was like, I can't find a sales job because number one, I'm not. I've already graduated. Right? So I can't read the graduate. And number two, the only people were hiring business to business sales, wanted someone with five years of experience and a Rolodex, who could roll in day one and be effective. And that was not me. What I needed was someone willing to take a chance on me. Thankfully, my karate instructor from high school was a car salesman who's a manager at Hendrick, Honda, and Charlotte, and they gave me a chance. And I could have easily been like, I went to Wake Forest University car sales is beneath me. I want the business to business sales, not consumer, not business to consumer. But instead, I said, You know what, I am not going to sit at my parent's house and feel sorry for myself. I'm going to go and do Do something to make the most of it. What I ended up doing was I ended up tracking my data, literally using Moneyball statistics with multivariate regressions to optimize my day and figure out who are the best leads to follow up on which ones can you let go? What part of the sales process is vital. And what I found during that process, literally just using a basic, very regression analysis, is if you can show people numbers for a car, even if they're like, I'm not buying today, your likelihood of selling them jumps from like 25% to 60. So better than a coin flip. So then all of a sudden, I craft my entire sales process around how can I convince someone to test drive their car and to just sit down with me for five minutes, and it absolutely revolutionized the way I sold cars and in my first full year, I hit Honda's highest award right out of the gate. I sold 200. And I think was 241 cars, so about 20 cars a month, right out of the gate at 24 years old. And I had a moment which where they shipped me up to Washington DC for like to stay at a five-star hotel. And it was this weird moment in my life where I drank way too much.And, and it wasn't that it's not that I'm I went up there to dress nice and be a party boy. It was that at the moment, I didn't realize that I was filling a void in my soul. So I thought I wanted to be a salesman. I thought it was good at it and an old boy I have made it. But at that moment when I was shaking hands with the district manager, and he looked me in the face and said, are you going to do this again next year? Like I better see you here next year. Of course, at the moment I was like you're going to see me here next year when I walked away without a warm To have my dinner and just sunk in that I was completely unfulfilled. It sunk in how many hours I spent doing that how much of my life I sacrificed to get to that moment. And basically, I was told, go do it again. You better do it again. And also it. It was pretty lucrative, relatively speaking, but it wasn't. It's not something that would ever make me millions unless I owned a car dealership. You know, I had a great I had a meeting with my general manager who told me point blank, he makes what, 300,000 a year, some huge number, but he's like, I never seen, my kids. He's like, you need to think long and hard if that's what you want. And I kind of realized at that moment, talking to my general manager, that if I wanted the car industry, I wasn't getting promoted up, because it takes me 20 years to get to be a general manager only to miss my kid's entire life. I realized around that time that I needed my name. On the side of the building Henrick Honda right and used to be Henrick Honda, because Mr. Hendrick rolls in and his Ferrari once a year to shake hands have dinner and tell everyone they're doing great. And then he drives back to Quail Hollow and hangs out with other multimillionaires, not billionaires, right? So to me I was like what I need is time freedom and I achieve time freedom by having my name on the side of the building but flashing back to hitting Hanta gold. What I realized then in there at that moment, was how completely unsatisfying making decent money is getting the literally the highest award you can get out of the gate is and, and at the time at 24 years old, I'm in the moment I filled that void without call and was totally embarrassed the next day. But it was one of those moments where I knew something was wrong at the moment and I didn't know how to fix it. And it wasn't until a few years later. Because I never hit that award again, by the way, because I've tried to make my life I tried to have a life balance that I couldn't achieve selling cars. And it wasn't until I sprained my ankle playing basketball, where I was sitting at home with ice on my ankle, where I went, I am not going to make money today. I'm 20 something, it was maybe 2526 years old. Not making money that day. And I went, I can't do this. And I went out and I bought the crutches. And I went out to sell cars using crutches, that same day, and just muscled through the pain. And it was really around that time where I realized I can do this in my 20s. That's annoying. If I get hurt when I'm in my 50s or 60s, or God forbid, I don't plan my retirement correctly, and I'm working in my late 60s. I can't afford to not have a paycheck coming in if I get hurt. And so it was the Several pivotal moments where I realized, number one, I don't want to get promoted upwards at the car dealership,I can't really go out because a car sales experience doesn't really translate somewhere else directly, I would really have to start at the bottom of the rung and I had gotten used to a lifestyle that is really hard to give up with, like I mentioned earlier people that whether you really truly want what you think they want you to have, or whether or whether you are just like falling victim to the pressure you think they're putting on you to live a certain lifestyle. It gets to you. And so I realized after a lot of reading, so I realized first and foremost, if it's not owning a car dealership, I need to own a business period. Because it's a lot of introspection and I went I meant to be my boss. And also during this period, I realized that Hate cars. What the heck am I doing here, but I utterly hate cars. They're depreciating assets. It was a really bad investment. I love investments. I ended up getting my series seven one day because I just loved it. And so I was like, I love investing. I love the idea of owning my own business. I love the autonomy. I love the idea of time freedom. So I'm a guy who likes to work 80 hours a week, but then occasionally I like to work 20 hours a week. So I want that flexibility and know that money is coming in and the only way to do that is to start a business. And so then I went step one self-reflection understand self assess. Who am I What do I like? Do I like my coffee completely black or like cream and sugar? Do I even like coffee? Do I? Am I a night owl? Am I an early bird? Like who am I at my core? What am I truly passionate about? And it's as soon as you can answer that question and even me myself after taking many many years of asking myself very hard. Questions, I still cannot look you in the face and tell you I confidently know myself. So if you're listening in, and you're like, I know myself, I know you don't. And it is, really, really painful. But it is worth it to just absolutely obliterate cell phone, deliver it, liberate your self-esteem and then rebuild it with a proper foundation. And like Steve Jobs says, and a bunch of other people says Warren Buffett to the best word in your business repertoire is the word No. Because I looked at over 100 businesses, I even started a couple that didn't go anywhere. But because I said no to a lot of sexy opportunities that ultimately didn't fit, who I was at heart and it made deciding things so much more efficient, so that when I eventually found mobile home parks, which is what I do full time now. It was, it was, my wife hates that I say this, but it was just like meeting her. The stars just aligned. I was like, Oh my gosh, this is who I'm supposed to be with. Like when I met my wife, we, we just, we clicked. And we just knew that we were getting married and very quickly, and we've been together seven years now and over seven years now, and I am in love with her. And we are happier now than we've ever have been. And I knew that early on. And it was the same thing with mobile home parks. So sorry, sweetheart, I know you're listening to this.But if you can't get there if you don't know who you are, and it's very similar to dating, right, like you want to go after the thing that looks the best, or the most popular thing or the thing that you think your friends are going to be proudest about. And what you need to realize is it's not that it's someone who fits you like a glove and compliments you so flashing back to the car dealership, I spent four years there. And then I decided you know what I need to do, I need to get my MBA because I don't understand business. And this will allow me to pivot into another company. And I also realize too, that at the car dealership, I was gaining amazing skills, how to sell how to market, how to do operations, how to take a really angry customer when I am the bad guy, because I'm the quote-unquote scummy car salesman and then have the and completely flip that on its head, have them leave with the warm and fuzzy and go next time I'm buying a car I'm coming to Ryan and I'm sending my friends here, because he's not a car salesman. This is a professional. So learning how to do all of that and so much more we're skills that I use, I used this morning at my current business. So I realized that whatever job I have is going to pivot into I was going to start whatever company I was going to start getting my MBA would and taking another job would not I can take something that is Even if I look at it, I'm like, well, that might be below me. I need to take it for the experience. And so I ended up going to work for Wells Fargo, which is their leadership program, which taught me many great things. And I was very thankful for that opportunity. But I realized very quickly at that opportunity that I was not meant to do that. And thankfully, while I was getting my MBA, I had discovered mobile home parks, and I was a year into it when I started at Wells Fargo. So I hate to say that I had one foot in the door and one foot out, but basically what I was doing during that first full year is proving that mobile home parks could make me money. And then the second full year was at Wells Fargo. I needed to scale that up and also plan to go full time. So it took me two full years from discovering mobile home parks, and three acquisitions to even go full time. And that's not to mention the three years I spent reading any book I could get my hands on so I used to challenge myself to a book a week and I've read well over 100 bucks, probably well over 200 bucks now, definitely slowed that down a lot like we were saying offline. But I forced myself to read. I forced myself to learn, I forced myself to network. And most importantly, I forced myself to self assess and understand who I am. So that way when it was time to make the jump to full time, it was time for a sacrifice. And when I did that, finally, I cut my salary big time, so I pay myself $35,000 a year $35,000 a year, I make more than that. But every penny above that I forced directly into my net worth. So it's like injecting steroids into my business because every penny I make since I'm an S Corp, it only gets taxed once. So I'm forcing funneling all that money into my business and not paying myself but just a salary, right and a measly one at that compared to what I probably could make in the open market. The reason is that it forces me to live a frugal lifestyle. So when I quit my job at Wells, I moved into a mobile home when I realized it was and I live there every other week for 14 months. So it wasn't like for a week, it was over a year. What I realized it was to get full time I had to make a sacrifice, I had to cut some crazy expenses of mine that I didn't truly make me happy. I had to live extremely frugally. I slept on a mattress. And I had two lawn chairs and a TV without a stand. It was leaning against my wall. And what I realized at that moment was I could pay myself to the property manager salary. So all of a sudden, I could make 35,000 a year, be an owner of a business. And if I get lucky, and I make a whole bunch more that year, I can funnel all that directly into business which I was lucky and there's a lot of luck involved to which I cannot stress enough luck and timing is completely out of your control and A huge part of it. But because I made that major sacrifice that allowed me to get full time and then the crazy thing about going full time and your side hustle is out of seemingly nowhere, you will see opportunities everywhere. And you're like, Oh my god, how did I miss this? And I will tell you how you missed it. It's because you're working 50 to 60 hours making someone else rich. And even if you're making 35,000 or less or not paying yourself at all, like I think the founder of Nike didn't pay himself for like 10 years. Yeah, he.He struggleduntil he struggled. Oh my goodness. And so you got to look at soda for a lot of reasons. I've been very lucky. So for a lot of reasons, like you have to, you have to make a massive sacrifice. And I have to tell you, from the moment I quit Wells Fargo today, I've been writing this Hi, it was June of 2016. 17 it's now October of 2019. So it's been two years and change. And I am so happy not being in corporate America anymore. I have a bunch of wonderful stories about achieving time freedom and how I've had my son, and how having time freedom it allowed me to literally be there for my premature babies birth, which never would have happened if I had to request PTO or early paternity time or get worried about being passed over for promotion or worse, work a commission-only sales gig. So if you hear my story, and we're about to dive into this a little deeper, I'm excited to see what questions you have for me, by the way, because I've seen you take some pretty furious notes there. If you're listening to this, know that it's going to require it. The word sacrifice means if you look it up the definition inherently means you're giving up something valuable to you and the hopes that you're getting something more valuable and exchange, right? But inherently, it's going to hurt. And in some cases a whole lot. But what you'll realize in very short order, once you destroy your self-esteem and rebuild it, the right way from the ground up, not with lies or not even lies, lies is a bit of embellishment. It's a hype story that other people are pitching to you that they're perpetuating, and they don't necessarily know that it's not true. So it's not necessarily a lie. It's just that when you are if you're the product of the five people you spend the most amount of time with, you know, and your, your mom is a plumber, your dad is a salesperson, like they're going to attack problems like a plumber or a salesperson, right? Like one of the best books I ever read. Besides four hour workweek, which is an amazing book, by the way, was the Millionaire Next Door because it makes you think like a millionaire like Rich Dad Poor Dad, brilliant book. It makes you think like a millionaire. So if you're you don't come from money because I didn't. I never thought like a middle-class person. So you have to think like a rich person. You have to make sacrifices, you have to self assess. And you have to be patient. Because it took it's not fair to say, Oh, I found mobile home parks and it took two years, and then took another two years and changed to get where I'm at now, it's not fair to say, well, in 2012, Ryan discovered he wanted to own his own business. And then three years later found mobile home parks. It's not fair to say that, that you know, that time was it because before then I was developing skills. And before then I was getting degrees from universities. And before then I was self-assessing to a smaller degree and reading books. So it takes a lot of time. And that's just not a sexy thing to say. And for someone who is stuck in a job that they're miserable that because I was there more than once. It sucked Here, but you need to hear that and you need to prepare yourself. Like Heidi Halverson says in her book motivation. The most successful people are the slight optimists. They're the ones who go, not who go, oh, I'm going to do this, or the ones who go, oh, I'm never going to do this. It's the ones who go, I'm going to do this, but it's going to be hard. So if you can have that mentality, you can look at it like it's a marathon. You will be like Bill Gates says you will be you'll probably overestimate what is it the quote is like, you'll overestimate what you can do in one year and underestimate what you can do at 10. And to end before we go to questions, I'd like to say I made a LinkedIn post recently, where I copied and pasted my goals. So that's the first meeting that my business partner and I had in July of 2015. Our first meeting, we wrote down very specific goals, very specific goals with dates that we were to accomplish these goals by For a five-year time horizon, and actually up to a 10-year time horizon, I copied those goals. And I pasted them to LinkedIn, just a post. And I put where I'm at today, and I smashed all of them. So if you're listening to this, and you're going, oh God, Ryan took seven years to get to where he's at today from discovering he was meant to be an entrepreneur, I will tell you, it will go by a lot faster, and you will accomplish way more than you think you will. Because there's a lot of, there's a lot of time in a day. And there's a lot of time in a year. And even I'll give you a good for example. Just I'll make this my denouement I do do a lingo every single day because it's been my life call to speak Spanish and I'm on like 855 days in a row or something like that. 15 minutes a day in Japan. Mucho Espanol our hit that I can speak Spanish now because not because It's not perfect, it's a disaster. But home is what we say works. And because I practice for 15 minutes every day no matter what, in two-plus years, I'm fluent. If you ask my tenants, they'll laugh and they'll be like as we go MCO up arrow as they own brave where they have large Espanol. So it's really funny, but he can see this man can speak Spanish, right? So what I'm getting at with all of this and where I'd kind of like to end and right out to the sunset for questions here is a little bit every day goes a long way.Yeah, absolutely. Okay, we are going to dive in because I have I love this. It's one thing that I love. Well, there are multiple things that I love in life. But when you find people who think like you, and express themselves the way you do, and yet have completely different passions in you, it's exciting. Right? I would never feel like Finding a mobile home park is like meeting my wife yet, However, no, no but to be honest though, what I do right now is that's how I feel about what I do right now that my broker profession of helping people understand how money works. I am as in love with that as I am with my wife. And sometimes that's a struggle because it's like, oh, man, I wish you'd love me more, right? That'd be nice, you know, but really, this like I love this in every fiber and core of my being I love helping people understand money and prepare financially for their future. And I love what it does for my family. On the income side, so like there's, there's, yes, there are hard days, there are things that you don't love about your job. And there's probably stuff in the mobile home park when you have to evict somebody or have to clean up a trashy site, right? There are bad days, right? But it doesn't matter how bad that day is. I love every part of the bad as much as I love every part of the good and finding and that is I love this. If I were to be a relationship coach, I am on the money side, but not the, on the human side, right, but it's something that I've told all of my single friends who are and my siblings who are looking for a spouse. And it's something I learned through a lot of reading stuff before. But when I was looking for a wife, I said, Look, and this may be a little graphic for people who are whatever, just know, but but I was looking for a wife is like, Look, I have to be able to like wake up in the morning and have sex with you. That's like something I got to be able to do. Right. I can't marry somebody who I'm completely not attracted to. But attraction is a very small part of this equation. For me. I'm looking for compatibility over attraction every day all day. I'm looking for compatibility. If we're not compatible. I don't care how attractive you are. It will not make up for a lack of compatibility. And that is as true and relationships as Ryan pointed out as it is in business as it is in a career, if your career is not as like compatible with who you are, that's not possible. So Ryan I, just met briefly before we record this, I'm busy, I read his stuff. And he's probably seen me a little bit. I don't know if you pick this up or not. But my tagline or one of the taglines that I use when I'm speaking on stage is to identify your identity. That is like the core of my message, the core of fuel your legacy. I believe that your legacy is the enactment and the living of your identity. But first, you have to identify your identity. And then the fuel your legacy is a financial component of gaining the financial confidence to live your legacy regardless of the outcome, right and that's where that sacrifice comes in. But that sacrifice is only possible after you know you're backed up against the wall and you know, without a shadow of a doubt. This has been identified and I'm living it out and it's a gift to the world. And so I love that that you recognize that your, the lifestyle that you adopted had become part of kind of an identity that you had adopted. But not that you reallylike when you pulled back all the core, it wasn't who you were. Right? And that is lives where you reach.Yeah, it's so crucial to get to that point. And it is hard to hear it is hard to say okay, everything you believe about yourself, I need you to question everything, not leave anything on unsewn stone unturned like I love it said like, what do I like with my coffee? Do I even like coffee right? Question everything. How do I like to do my hair? Do I like to do my hair? What color do I like my hair right? What kind of clothes do I wear? Why do I wear these type of clothes do I want to end before we got I'm in a shirt and tie right now he's in a polo. And he's like, man, should I go put a tie on? I feel how to dress. Like, did you just do you? I mean, I have a meeting. So I met a shirt and tie today, but like, just dress how you're comfortable. Like there's no reason to dress a way that you're not comfortable if it's inauthentic to you, and I love that.So, I'm going to go way back to the beginning, because I think this is another crucial thing, and I want to hear your thoughts on this. But you said something that I think only aneither an experienced person and human development or, or somebody just thought a lot about it, but you persuade people and so many people think that a salesman is there to kind of be that sleazy person or manipulate them. So how would you define the difference between persuasion and manipulation I don't think there's a lot of difference. I know that's probably not what people want to hear. But manipulation is basically in layman's terms, doing things to affect someone's behavior to get what you want out of them, right. And persuasion is a form of manipulation. But at the same time, I think persuasion comes with a lot of negative connotations in that you think you're just going to wave a magic wand and persuade someone and the truth is, outside of a cult leader, that's not something that happens unless you're lying to someone. There's persuasion, you're not going. It's really hard to be that charismatic, that you're going to convince someone to do something against their will. Right. So in other words, in car sales, I sold Honda's reason why I picked is number one I drove the product, and I believed in the product. And so and also it carries its value. It doesn't break it last forever. I have a 2900 fit, stick shift, love it to death 250,000 miles on it, I'm gonna keep it as long as the thing goes, I've paid it off a long time ago. It's cheap. It's great on gas, I can do that. That's easy to sell. Right? Because when people come in, oh, you know, I don't want to make the wrong decision. Dude, I've had this for a while now I've had it for 10 years, right? Like, if you're looking to have something reliable, that's going to hold its value and be cheap, but safe, like a no brainer, right? So what you're doing in a sale, is you're presenting the facts in a way that allows someone to make their own decision. Now you have things like strategical missions where you might weave out that it's not as comfortable as the Toyota. Right so like, I'm not going to just volunteer that information or maybe you do so like there's a lot of gray area and sales which kind of opens the way for you to lie. And so my thing was when I got into car sales, I was like, I'm going to do this the right like I'm not going to be a scummy car salesman, one of two things is going to happen. I'm either gonna go do this honestly. And the whole world is just gonna implode. And it's not gonna work, or it's gonna work and it's going to wow people because they're going to be like, Oh my god, I curse that. Like if someone asked me like, what's more, comfortable Toyota, or Honda, I'm going to tell you the truth. The Toyota if you want to ride a couch, go get a Toyota. But here's the thing. If you want to enjoy if you want to feel like you have more control of your car, you pick a Honda. Right? So in other words, like persuasion to me, is it manipulation? Yes, it is. But that manipulation doesn't necessarily have to be nefarious, right. So for example, towards the end of my years at Honda, Toyota got rocked with safety issues. I mean, rocked with safety. And it wasn't just the car pedal thing getting stuck. It was they failed really big tests and I can't remember what it was. But I remember showing people like, hey, look, just FYI Toyota's are great cars, they hold their value, but just FYI, here is a serious issue that Toyota has that they have not addressed yet. And it's funny when even though I was presenting the facts in a way that was knocking down my competition, people didn't like that. I don't know. It's just not even bringing up period. And I think the takeaway there is manipulation doesn't necessarily have to be nefarious, right. So in that instance, I was like, Hey, this is a safer car. Check these third party sources, right. So am I manipulating someone for my self-gain? Yeah, absolutely. I want to sell you a Honda and you had not had you buy a Toyota. However, it's safer for you to buy this Honda right now at least right. So in other words, it doesn't always have to come with the various connotations. And kind of where I also think it's important to make note of if your incentives are aligned with your prospective buyers, that's everything. Right? So in other words, it becomes nefarious and deleterious for someone in an in a situation where they're being persuaded where it doesn't incentivize them to buy whatever you're selling. Right? So you're selling some snake oil, right? And truly, you know, in the bottom of your heart that the snake oil doesn't do anything, right. But the person trying to buy it is seeing something that's not there. And you are allowing them to see that and you are planting seeds there, whether you're being truthful or not. Whether you're omitting key details or you're directly lying to them. If somebody is looking at a story that you're telling, and they are buying that story, even though you know It's not true. That is a really bad thing. But even still, like that person is actively wanting to believe in something. So if you're a critical thinker, like you said, you ask tough questions of yourself and your surroundings. Even if it is really hard to ask those questions. You're never going to get persuaded. Unless someone directly lies to you. And even then trust but verify, man always checks the facts. Yeah, I agree. I, in my mind, I would say kind of the difference between if I had to separate the two words, I would say manipulation is, is more of mal intent. And persuasion is to help people be to get what they need. And it comes down to what is your intention? And are your values aligned? Are your values aligned with the buyer or are they not if they're not, and you're still trying to get them to buy something that at that point, I would say it's more like manipulation. It's mal intent, whereas persuasion it's a fine line, right because you're employing the same techniques. So, to use an extort a story from my past, I did door to door sales for five years for four and a half years. And, and I did it one year. And then I went out and I served a two-year mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And when you're talking about Jesus Christ, the last, the last thing you want to do is like sell somebody, Jesus Christ, right, because maybe they're going to join for the wrong reasons and all this, right. There's some there are some ethical things there that for me, I was like, I want to sell them this, but I have learned all these sales tools on the door to door sales and happened to be that I knocked a lot of doors on my mission. So a lot of the skills and tactics applied to both to both situations and I would go through kind of ups and downs where I like I would be using the sales, tools, and tactics but I felt kind of dirty using them because I was I didn't want to sell somebody the Jesus Christ. But on the other hand, when I wouldn't use them, I felt like I was not giving them the best opportunity to see Jesus Christ in the best light. And so part of it is you're using these skills, these are skills you've been given, and it's okay to be persuasive, that I think comes down to what's your intent in being persuasive, because part of and this is where I would separate a salesman from a closer, right. And a salesman is somebody who is they're just with their pocket bolt book in mind, and they're how, how much money can I get out of this person? And they're just selling them anything. And then a closer their objective is not to get not to sell them something as much as to get a yes or no and help their client make a decision. If they can try and make a decision, yes or no, everybody wins, right? Most of the time. The client really respects that and will actually buy from you just because you were objective about the whole process, rather than going even though they probably could get something or they might have liked the toilet a better in the end right out of respect for knowing that you are living in alignment, that they'll do business with you because they can trust at that point where the salesman they always feel like okay, what's your not telling me? What, What's he trying to do just get my pocketbook. And I think that that's an important distinction, especially when we're going to start talking about kind of how you grew your business and how you overcame some different challenges. And that's an important thing to understand where you're coming from and the intention behind what you're doing. And I think, to identify that you have to go in and identify your identity, do that self-assessment, and, and start thinking about this.If you're lying to yourself, you're going to lie to other people, whether you realize you're doing it or not.Yep. And I say all the time, the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. Andto, to further that example, I didn't This is a great conversation but before we started recording, he, Ryan'sjust told him to hit record because of our conversationso good. So so I was telling him that sometimes if I've read three quarters or half or a quarter of a book and I feel like I've got the main idea and it's just becoming repetitive and multiple stories of the same, teach the same principle, I will stop a book halfway. I'm not committed to finishing a book just because I need to finish a book for my own like to see the finished bar on my audible. Like, if I've got it, I'm moving on, where he's like, man, if I open a can of beer, I've got to finish my can of beer. And so we Chuck all these and maybe that's a bad thing. And I think, no, there are advantages to both mentalities depending on what angle you're taking it. But I think the the the commitment to finish that commitment applied everywhere in his life. And it's about what is the finishing for him it was about finishing, identifying his identity and continue to live by his identity. And he's not going to be satisfied until that's completed. And he already told you, he's still working on it. He doesn't know exactly who he is, and he doesn't think you do either. And I would agree. I'm fairly confident with who I am like I can function knowing who I am. But I'm still questioning everything I believe every day and I'm seeking to have associations with people who question everything, I believe from a just aspect of business aspect to where I'm uncomfortable. I disagree with some people and maybe get a little bit angry about other people's opinions. But I put myself in those situations voluntarily because I want the challenge I want to grow. And I'm not satisfied until I've, I've completed my growth. And so it's just an interesting thing to think about. And then Say I want to touch on one thing before we go further. But there's this thing that you talked about. And I wonder what's the emotional thought process? You kind of talked about it, but when you realize that your time is worth more, your life is worth more. So many people they're working and they think it's okay like I'm surviving. But how do you value your life? How did you get to the point where like, Okay, my life is worth more than this job and I'm done with this job because my life the actual experiences that I could operate or have are worth more than this, this income. So I mentioned earlier one, one thing I challenged myself to do is meet everyone I could write it Everyone says, Oh, it's all about who you know, like, it's not who it's not what you know, it's who you know, everybody knows that. But almost no one applies that in their life. So I was like, Okay, and this is true axiom wisdom of those passed down through the many years. Like, let's see if there's any credence to this. I talked to anybody with a pulse. I don't care if you're a janitor or a CEO, or anywhere in between, I wanted to talk to you. And that's still true. Today, I'll talk to anybody. It's a big reason why I want to come on here too, by the way, like, I want to give people free content. So they can escape corporate America to like, I'm not selling anything. I'm not raising any funds for my properties. I just want to help people, but also like, What's in it for me? Well, I'll tell you what's in it for me. Hopefully, someone listening now will go, I need to get on the phone with this guy. Even if I don't offer him anything. And I want that because I want to hear from you. I want to understand your thought process. And I've met thousands of people in my life thousands and I've just, it's amazing how everyone is unique, yet. Everyone is very average. And it's until you realize how average You are where you realize like if you're a fan of the office like I am, I love Michael Scott as a character. He has this one episode which is Jericho, where he promised a bunch of kids that he was going to pay for their college. Evan, they graduated then they're like, hey, Michael Scott, where's their money? Hilarious episode. And, and he doesn't have the money, right? And so they like someone asked him like, why would you promise that you're going to pay all these kids colleges 10 years ago? And his answer was, well, 10 years ago, I figured by now I'd be a millionaire.And has funny as that is, it is so true across the board. So many people are like, I'm going to be rich one day. And when you ask them, they joke, oh, the lottery, or I'm going to get a promotion or this is going to happen or that's going to happen and no one wants to actually take the steps and To do that, right, and it's not at your job, unless you're crazy unless you're LeBron James, right? Unless you're like 1% of the 1% as athletic or smart or anything. Like, just think of think about basic statistics. If you want to be in the 1% of the wealth, you need to be 1%. good at something, you there needs to be 1% good looking, or 1% smart, or 1%, hard-working, or 1%. Lucky, right? You're not just going to get into the 1% because you exist even if you're the 90th percentile you that's not the 1%, right. So what I realized is, well, what's a really easy thing to be 1% in the 1% in what no one else is willing to do. So for me, it was easy it was like, Let's go meet everyone in the world because that's a really basic truth. Like to meet everyone you can and I've met some incredible people and Go and do things like living in a mobile home. And in my industry, no one wants to everyone wants to syndicate money. And put the guild deals together, no one wants to operate their deals. And not only do they not want to operate, but they also don't even want to go to their properties. Two hours ago, I was sitting in one of my properties, I go almost every day if I can have my properties, and for a long time, I was the physical property manager before I was able to start hiring people. And it's like, you need to be able to do those things. To do that, so So getting back to I think, ultimately what you're getting out there is like, you know, emotionally How do you get there? Well, step one is, you have to like you mentioned earlier, you have to understand that no matter what you pick in life, they're going to be awful things, awful things about it. Like the subtle art of not giving an F by Mark Manson where he's like, dude, any. Any job you pick is going to come with a pile of crap. You just have to pick the pile of crap. That, you know, you can live with every day and for me. For me, it's that I knew I wanted to do real estate. It just fits my skill set well and I and I knew I wanted to help charity somehow. And more specifically, I knew I wanted to help underprivileged kids, and name a better way to help underprivileged kids than to help give them a clean, safe place to live. I started as a partial scholarship, I offer to pay for college applications. I do free food giveaways, I try my best to help remove the stress from these families so that kids can focus on their school. And for me, that helps me through really bad days, because I have a lot of really, really bad days. But ultimately, it's like, it's like this man. I want to talk to everyone I can talk to and if you're listening in, I recommend you do the same because you'll never know who you're going to meet. And it could be a janitor that gives you the best information about your life. Never know. And you know, you got to find a way to escape the fear. A great book I can recommend is Susan Jeffers Feel the fear and do it anyway. And really what that book kind of taught me is that like that in four-hour workweek it's like, dude, imagine the worst-case scenario it's not that bad. Like if you vividly imagine the worst-case scenario, you're going to survive and that's the point not to be a spoiler on Susan Jeffers. That book is full of amazing things. But her big thing was right out of the gate. She's like, fear. It comes from thinking you can't handle a situation.To convince yourself you can handle it. Yep. Then.You can. Exactly and it's like courage. It's not you. Courage is not the absence of fear courage is feeling the fear of doing it anyway to quote her book.I completely agree. So how did you when you decided to quit? I mean, it sounds like from timeline if I got everything right. You got married three or four years before you quit your job completely correct.I got married in November of 2015, which was a couple of months up to Korea, every mobile home park and Okay, it was about a year and a half before I went full time.Okay. So about a year and a half. How did so one thing that a lot of people face when they try and move from corporate America and entrepreneurship, everybody faces it? If it doesn't come from outside, it comes from inside. Tell me the story of your biggest naysayer. And how you silence them in your mind and said, Look, I'm doing it anyway. Oh, man, there's a lot. There's a lot of people. There's a lot of people in corporate America. One guy laughed at me and was like, you're going to be a real estate agent. You're going to leave this at the Wells Fargo leadership program.The way that it's investigated by our government, yeah. Oh,yeah. I don't want us about things about Wells Fargo.I had a bad I was Think I was in a bad culture at Wells I there's a lot of folks at Wells I know that just absolutely love it so I think I was just unlucky in that regard but there's it you know I again if my way when my wife listens to this you get really mad but one thing that I think needs to be said is that whether somebody the closest people to you may be the biggest naysayers I'm not saying that my wife was not supportive or that she wasn't a native she was a naysayer so to speak, but there are a lot of things that she was saying and doing that she will if she was here to defend herself, she would be like, That's not fair. I didn't know what I was doing at the time. But she grew up like a lower upper class. So like if I was like upper-middle class, she was like a lower upper class or like Country Club big house. Meanwhile, I was like, middle class, my dad's college professor, my mom's a salesperson, a good income, get private school. Wake Forest is private. You know, so I wasn't rich by any means, but we're middle class. But her parents were, I want to say wealthy, but they're definitely over that threshold of being considered coming from wealth. And so when I rolled home and was like, guess what, I've got amazing news. I found the one I found it around the one I meant to be with its mobile home parks. She said a lot of really bad words in a very elevated tone of voice. And I think that you know, I don't want to say that she was a naysayer saying I couldn't do it because she never said I couldn't do it. She was more like, you're thrusting our family and our future into literally recourse debt. In other words, if one of my properties goes belly up, they're coming after all of my assets. So I have full recourse debt over myself on my properties. So in other words, Ryan, you're going to put our family into full recourse debt. Literally, to a certain degree a trash can. I hate to say it, I'm supposed to say modular home communities, but a lot of people have looked at me and been like, why are you you're buying garbage cans? This is a horrible thing to say. But I get it if you come from a country club lifestyle, right? So number one, you're taking a recourse debt number two, you're going to pay yourself nothing. Right? $35,000 a year. I was it for the first few years I lost money. Well, the first year I lost money in the second year, I made money but I didn't pay myself anything. So I really lost and then the third year pay myself 35,000 and then I'm in the fourth year and change and it's still on purpose paying myself 35,000 a year. So from her perspective, this is awful. And she has no said as basically, I was I basically in an awful way was like you're being a dream killer.a horrible thing for me to say but I'm I think this is a story that people need to hear because when you have a Significant Other that was that loves you, and wants to build a life with you. And you come home one day, unannounced, and you're like, this is what I'm dedicating my life to. That's a crappy thing to do, especially when you're going to follow up by calling or a dream killer. So I did a lot of really lame things. And she will tell you, first and foremost publicly that she did a lot of really lame things, too. We recorded it on my podcast, I gave her the mic. And I was like, You know what, say whatever you want to rules, no bad words, and no giving away any of my secrets. And I let her just rail on me for like 10 minutes. And then for the light, it's like a 15-minute episode and the last five minutes, we just kind of have a cute little back and forth where we together talk about marriage through the lens of entrepreneurship. So ultimately, who's my biggest naysayer? You know, I don't know. I'm a person who hates losing. I'm competitive and it's not winning. To me is not nearly as much fun as not losing. I kind of make sense like the magnitude that I have an emotion I feel when I win is dwarfs the magnitude of the pain I feel when I lose. So it was tough the first year from someone who was my best friend and my spouse, right and so I reason why I say that because my wife is gonna get really mad when she hears that I told this story. But Sweetie, we have that episode so you can ask for it. The reason why I want to say that is I know that there are listeners to this episode right now who have a significant other who, for whatever reason, haven't bought in yet, or given them a lot of flack, I will tell you, you are not alone. And if you truly know in your heart, that you are meant to do something, you will find a way to persevere through that. And if that person that significant other is meant to be there with you, you will find a way to get through it together and come out even better because, at the end of that episode, we were both like, yeah, we love each other more now than we did going in This, I think that those are all really, you know, it's kind of lame for me to basically pick my spouse to answer that question. But the truth is, I think people need to hear that man, I do. And you can if you're if you know yourself and you found the spouse that like you said earlier you want to have sex with but also fits who you are at heart and you want to build something together. And they're truly supportive. Right? They're going to stand by you even if they fundamentally hate what you're getting into. Yep, I completely agree. I was. I was fortunate enough to when I was dating, I already had found what I was doing for eternity right before I got married. So that was part of it was kind of baked into the cake. However, I will say that over the last like a year and a half I've ramped up a lot of my public speaking a lot of my traveling and it's hard. It's been a topic of conversation in our marriage are saying K, well, how can we manage this? She doesn't she thought she would love being a mom, she doesn't love being a mom, which is hard because she also doesn't necessarily want to go earn all the income. So it's like, Okay, well, how do we balance that there are still responsibilities that have to be done. Now we have two kids, we can't send them back. So it is a management thing. And it's not necessarily I think what you said is actually, probably that the rawest and real if people love you, and you potentially are bringing them into something that they didn't feel like they signed up for, and better ways to deliver that message and to get the buy-in. Absolutely. dropping their head and say, well, baby, join me or get out. Right.Exactly. And so so with that, though,I love all this. We're going to have to have you on again because this just is not enough time to have this conversation. And we're going to talk a little bit after this about some things that I think could we might be able to work together on Elsa sounds like we have some similar missions. But I'm going to go through there are two more sections here. Well, first, how can we support you? How can we get in touch with you? If we did want to have a phone call with you? Where would we reach out to you to kind of hear more of your story or share our gratitude for you being so vulnerable? Yeah, absolutely. So literally just google me My name is Ryan and I are us that's and like, Nancy, LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me second best places my website, Archimedes GRP. com. You can drop me a line on either place, I'm pretty much so wide open door  I have a lot of people that reach out to me that is like, Hey, can I buy your coffee? Or can I take you out to lunch or this or that? And it's like, dude, honestly, I just want to meet you like how does it benefit me? Just getting on the phone with you. I want to hear who you are. I want to hear your story. I want to know where you came from, where you're at and where you want to go. And I thoroughly enjoyed teaching. I thoroughly enjoyed Helping, I thoroughly enjoy connecting so offline when Samuel, I were talking I was I thought of two people I would love to introduce you to. That's who I am. And if I have you in my database, then I can connect people to you and you to people and I love that. So I like I said, I'm not selling anything. I don't have fun, I'm not looking for investors. I'm not self-promoting for anything. I just want to help people because I have to tell you, being stuck at a job is is torture. It's torture. I look from quitting to like six to 12 months after quitting corporate America, I lost something like 15 pounds, and I changed none of my habits. I was depressed. It's true. So if I can help people because I don't think you know, you can argue like AI is going to come in and take over thought jobs and automation is going to take over thought jobs. So we need to reinvent jobs going forward. You can make that argument but truth be told, go find your happiness because I got to tell you, when my son was born premature, being able to be there by my wife side, she's in the hospital for almost a week and then my son in the hospital for over two weeks and then Nick you to be there by their side when they needed me the most and not have to worry about work. That was worth the I don't care if someone was like, I'll give you a million bucks to miss this moment. I would never take it to be there at 3:45 pm on a Thursday in the middle of a workweek, watch my son be born. That was the most amazing experience in my life. Why there is no amount of money you could ever give me that would make me forego that experience. So to me, it's like, like what I am like, you are helping me by allowing me to help you because I want you to achieve that. So please reach out to me. I mean that Again, Ryan nearest anywhere us, Archimedes GRP. com Find me on LinkedIn. Connect with me I'd love to. Okay.So this night, I encourage everybody to reach out to him. I'm so grateful that I get to know him. I'm excited to connect with the people that he'smentioned to me offline. And I said I think there's some potential there for us to even work closer together. This is my last two sections here, and they're kind of my favorite. So we're doing legacy on rapid-fire. It's five questions. I'm probably only gonna ask you four of them though.And one word to one-sentence answers. Cool. Okay. The only caveat to that is this first question you must clarify.Okay. And you'll understand that when, when I ask it because everybody assumes that especially these more enlightened people that have been talking to everybody answers that same and I'm like, okay, expand. Okay. So, so here goes. What do you believe? is holding you back from reaching the next level of your legacy today.Timeand I'll expand on that. I think that the concept that I have works so I bought 10 mobile home I've been a part of 10 mobile home park transactions now. So far, I've made a ton of mistakes along the way. But truth be told, it's going to take a lot I'm not you can't just go to the mobile home park store and buy a bunch of good mobile home park deals. It's the industry is flooded right now with people trying to enter the space so there's not a lot of good deals out there period. And even if there were, I wouldn't want there's my time is limited. So number one, it's like buying it's like planting seeds you the limiting factor there is the time you plant the seed and then you watch it grow but have to wait. You know if I buy it a great deal today. It's not like I make a bunch of money today. I will make the money when I sell or refinance and I'll get cash flow along the way. But, you know, you buy a property in the big jumps in your IRR. And you know the money that hits your bank account comes after many months or many years after you've executed a turnaround. So for me, the limiting factor is absolutely time. Okay,awesome. And what is the hardest thing you've ever accomplished?meeting my wife. Okay. I was abysmal with women. I could not I was annoying, unlikable, and it took me years of my life to learn how to talk to people. And my wife. I met her at the car dealership, she showed up to buy a Honda. She ended up buying a Volvo. So I was not. I was not manipulative. I was persuasive. And another, another light, but yeah, I was just god awful were women. And I taught myself how to speak to people and through getting proficient in interacting with people. When my wife presented herself it was, it was just it everything fell apart. It fell into place so easily for both of us, to get married and to grow our lives together.Awesome. And what's the greatest success than to this point in your life?Other than my sonI would say escaping corporate America. I mean, that's more than getting my black belt in karate or hitting a hundred gold or getting a master's degree or teaching myself Spanish. I got to say if you're listening to this and you think you are meant to be your boss and to escape corporate America, I am telling you, you are right. And it is. It is on par with getting married and having a child. That is amazing.Awesome. And what is one secret He believes contributed most to your success throughout your journey, habit, mindset or behavior.So many things, man habits, habits are everything. But I, again, I think the self-assessment is got to be the most important thing there.The 1% rule that I talked about earlier where you've got to find your 1% is huge, but I mean, if I have to pick only it's like I mentioned earlier, life is a marathon man. You will do a lot you will overestimate what you do in a year and underestimate what you do at 10.Totally. And then, so that's the end of that section. This is my favorite section. Okay, this is this question that is why I do this podcast. Okay. Okay.So we're going to pretend that you are dead. So your family sad now butsix generations from now. Your great, great, great, great, great-grandchildren. They're sitting around a table that discussing your life, right? They're discussing your legacy. They're having this conversation. What do you want? Your great, great, great, great, great-grandchildren? What do you want them to be saying about your legacy and six generations from now?I want them to be saying, I'm glad he taught us to leave the world better than you showed up. So for me, I, you know, I don't want to divulge how much I'm worth. But it's gone from effectively negative to a lot. And it's because I take that mentality into my properties, right? So I want to buy something at or above appraisal value. So in other words, I'm happy to pay an unfair price advantage seller, because I know that I'm going to make that property better off for having been there. And the reason why I mentioned my scholarship and paying for college applications and doing things like Bible studies on the properties and going to my properties and talking to people face to face. Because I want the people on my properties to be better off for having been there. It's really easy to be like, Well, I hope in six generations I've amassed so much like I'm the Vanderbilts, right? So they have wealth and they can do what they want and not worry about money ever. But the thing of it is, studies show that by the third generation, most wealth is gone. And I have a friend who's third-generation wealthy and he, he's told me multiple times. He's like, I am breaking this, I'm going to be abnormal here. I am going to continue my family's wealth. He's a wicked, ambitious guy, right? There are a lot of people that once you hit that third iteration that's gone. And not only is that gone, but I think I possibly hit a really big milestone in my life to

Michael can't bring himself to talk about politics or impeachment again. So Ryan drives Michael headlong into fun and gaames.

Get your local history on in this special episode of the Miracle Chrysler Dodge Jeep Ram Podcast. This week, host John Haggard talks to Ryan Baker, the director of the Sumner County Museum. Together, they discuss several topics, including: Ryan’s Early Life and High SchoolCollege Life at MTSURyan’s Coaching and Sunday School ActivitiesDrone FishingHow Ryan Ended up in the Sumner County Museum as DirectorAmazing Things to See at the Sumner County MuseumExciting Addition to the Museum and Things to Look Forward to in the next three yearsThe Most Inspiring Part of Working as a Museum DirectorAnnual Cemetery TourHow to Contact Ryan Baker Ryan is also the husband of Kim Baker, CEO of the Gallatin Chamber of Commerce. You can listen to earlier podcasts with Kim in Episode 13 of the Miracle CDJR Podcast and in Episode 9 of the Miracle Ford Podcast! Check them out when finishing with this episode. Transcript John Haggard 0:02 Welcome to the Miracle Chrysler Dodge Jeep Ram Special Guest Edition Podcast, where we interview community leaders in the Gallatin Sumner County area. And today we’re honored to have Ryan Baker. He is the director of the Sumner County Museum on the podcast. Hey Ryan, welcome to the podcast. Ryan Baker 0:20 Hi, John. Thanks for having me. John Haggard 0:21 And Ryan before we explore the Sumner County Museum in Gallatin today, for people who are new to the area or those searching on the Internet just trying to find fun things to do in Middle Tennessee or in Gallatin, tell us a little bit about you. Did you grow up in Gallatin? Ryan Baker 0:35 I did. I grew up here in Gallatin. I was actually born in Hendersonville, and when I turned three, my mom and dad built a house in Gallatin, and we moved here in 1986. I lived in that same house my whole life, and then I made it about as far as Murfreesboro for four years, and then came back to Gallatin. John Haggard 0:59 And where did you go to high school? Ryan Baker 1:01 I went to Gallatin High School. John Haggard 1:02 All right. I think they’re having a pretty good football season, somebody told me. Is that true? Ryan Baker 1:07 They were. They only lost one game in the regular season this year. John Haggard 1:11 All right, well, so thinking about high school, what was the most fun thing or some of the fun things that you did while you were there? Ryan Baker 1:19 Well, when I was in school, what most kids were doing on a Friday or Saturday night, we just get in our car and cruise around what we call the Gallatin 500. It basically ran from where the old Walmart was at, where Ollie’s is now up to like the Food Lion parking lot and back around, and so you would just see a whole lot of cars really cruising all night. John Haggard 1:45 And so what did the police think about all that? Ryan Baker 1:48 You know, they were always really pretty laid back when we were in school. You know, every now and then, if the crowd got too big in a certain parking lot, they might come in, and you know, tell everybody move it along. But a lot of times they just stop by and chat with us too. John Haggard 2:03 Alright, so Ryan, you said you made it as far as Murfreesboro. So I’m assuming maybe you went to college there. Ryan Baker 2:10 That’s right. I went to MTSU originally for history. Changed a few times, bounced around different medical things. And then ended up actually with a degree in Tourism Studies at MTSU. It’s kind of a new program they have there. And when I graduated in 2015, the Sumner County Museum was hiring for director. And so my appreciation for history and knowledge with you know, tourism, kind of just a perfect fit, I guess. John Haggard 2:45 in reading your bio, I understand you were or still are a head coach? Ryan Baker 2:51 Yes. So I have coached a lot of, or most of my son’s soccer teams and basketball teams since he’s been participating. John Haggard 3:03 So what’s the number one tip to win a basketball game or a soccer game? What is it really that makes some teams succeed all the time, and others don’t? Ryan Baker 3:12 I think for kids, especially the younger kids, it is just to let them have fun, not put a lot of pressure on them, and kind of let them learn naturally and just make the game up. Just make it about fun. And once the kids are having fun, you’ll start to see you know, some W’s coming in. John Haggard 3:30 Your bio also says that you teach a Sunday school class? Ryan Baker 3:35 I did. My wife and I, we both taught at Godwine in Hendersonville for four-year-olds for several years. John Haggard 3:44 And when you are not at the Summer County Museum in terms of your time off, what do you like to do? Ryan Baker 3:50 So my biggest passion is going to be fishing. So I don’t get to fish as much as I would like because we Got a 13-year-old and a two-year-old right now. John Haggard 4:03 That’s a lot. Ryan Baker 4:04 But fishing, camping, being outdoors, really. If I’m outdoors, I’m happy John Haggard 4:10 Now have you heard Ryan about drone fishing? Ryan Baker 4:14 No, I have not. But I’ve heard about the new magnet fishing for people, you basically just take a big strong magnet on a rope, drop it down in the lake and see what you can pull out. John Haggard 4:26 Wow. Okay, yeah! Ryan Baker 4:28 People find bicycles and watches, phones, all kinds of things. I’ve not done that myself, though. John Haggard 4:35 So I was listening to a podcast about this drone fishing. And so what happens is, let’s say somebody set the ocean, they’re on the beach, they send the drone out, as long as it is within sight. It’s legal. And they have to, of course, be licensed, I suppose and follow local law. And they drop this fishing line, special fishing line, down and they’re able to see from the camera if there’s efficient, so they drop it down and boom, there you go on it. It seems like drones are getting involved everywhere. And I didn’t know if you would run into anybody doing that here or not. Ryan Baker 5:06 I have not, but I’m going to look that up. John Haggard 5:08 Kind of crazy, ain’t it? Ryan Baker 5:09 That’s something. Yeah, that’s something I need to know more about. John Haggard 5:12 Drone fishing. There you go. So So let me ask you this. You said you came to the Sumner County Museum based on your degree. How did you rise to the director? Most people come in, I would think as, you know, in various positions, you kind of work your way up. Ryan Baker 5:27 So the Sumner County Museum was actually founded in 1975. And the current facility opened in ’81. And for most of its existence, it has been ran by volunteers. Most of the exhibits in the museum are set up through volunteer efforts. A gentleman named Alan Hanes was a long-time volunteer curator there and did quite an amazing job, brought the museum had with the funding and things like that. But the board of directors decided to hire an executive director in 2015. I thought that was going to be the best way to give the museum a shot for success, I guess you could say. John Haggard 6:10 All right. And before you got involved in museum management and promotion, were you in a different line of work? Ryan Baker 6:17 I was and was in the restaurant industry for quite some time, ended up going into, you know, the management side of that. And I knew early on that that wasn’t what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. And now don’t get me wrong. I love cooking. I cook at home regularly John Haggard 6:32 And tell us how did the Sumner County Museum actually come about? How long has it been there, and how did it happen? Ryan Baker 6:40 So the museum that is located behind Trousdale Place, just a couple blocks from the Gallatin Downtown area. It was founded in 1975. That building opened in 81. And it was started by a group of people; two individuals probably have the biggest impact. Two founders being John Garrett, whose family owns Garrett Concrete here in Gallatin, and another gentleman named Robert Ramsey, and he was believed the owner of the Ram Craft Clock Company. And so they kind of teamed up and had this idea for a museum. And John, I know, was a long-time preservationist, collector of historical artifacts. And so I’d like to think that his collection probably got so big that he didn’t really have much of another choice, but to really open a museum. John Haggard 7:32 What are some of the cool things that you would find in the Sumner County Museum? Ryan Baker 7:37 The museum set up in chronological order. We’ve actually got three floors with about 10,000 square feet of exhibit space in the current museum. So we’ve got Native American exhibit that we have really like State Museum quality artifacts there. So those are really neat to see and kind of learn about their stories, and then we’ve got items from the Long Hunters that came through this are. We have a blacksmith shop, a tinsmith shop, gunsmith shop. We have exhibits on all of the major wars when Sumner County’s involved in it, from the Civil War up to Vietnam. We have information or an exhibit on schools here in Sumner County. We’ve got Gallatin’s first fire truck. We have Model T, Model A. We’ve got old Chevrolet and smart things about the Sumner County Drive-in that closed, I think it was around 96, 97 when they shut that down. Now, a lot of artifacts on farming, farm equipment. So we’ve really we’ve got, one way to put it, we’ve got a lot of stuff. John Haggard 8:37 Yeah, sounds like it. It really does. It really does. What about the funding? How does the museum get its funds? Ryan Baker 8:44 So the museum is private, so we’re not owned by the city or county or anything like that. So it’s really up to myself and the board of directors to raise funds throughout the year to keep, you know, just the operating costs going. The city of Gallatin, they do help us out with a grant every year that we’ve been receiving to help us, you know, just keep operating. John Haggard 9:06 Anything that you would say has been a very exciting addition to the museum over the last several years. Ryan Baker 9:12 So we’ve got a storage room upstairs. And you wouldn’t believe it is just full of things that have been donated over the years with things that the museum has acquired. And I remember it was a couple of years ago and is a rainy, rainy day. And I thought, I’m just going to go up there, go up here in this room, and kind of go through some things and look at different items and came across a box that said Buffalo Balloon on it. And I wondered what this could be, so I opened it up. And inside were artifacts and newspaper articles regarding the world’s first airmail delivery, and come to find out the world’s first recorded Air Mail Delivery was made in 1877. From Nashville to Gallatin via hot air balloon. And it was called the Buffalo Balloon. It was actually from New York. And one thing I couldn’t figure out is why they brought this to Nashville to deliver Air Mail. That’s one thing, one piece of the puzzle that I have not solved. But we do have several artifacts from that airdrop. And one of the envelopes that we have a copy of was actually on display in the Smithsonian Postal Museum in Washington, DC. And I did discover that there were not many of these airmail stamps made. There’s actually an argument whether there were three made or 300. But nevertheless, I did see where one I discovered where one sold at auction for a quarter-million dollar several years ago. So I don’t have many of those stamps. But we do have some of the original artifacts from that. And right now, we actually have a grad student named Marley, who’s at MTSU, and she is working on creating like a new display for these artifacts. So should be by probably March or April, we’ll have that set up at the museum. John Haggard 11:10 So Ryan, what do you see as you look into the crystal ball, the future plans for the museum, something we can look forward to say over the next couple of two or three years? Ryan Baker 11:21 I’m glad you asked that. So in 2015, Mr. Garrett, he raised money to purchase a property known as the Carriage House. And now this house built in 1831, and it sits directly across the street from where they just rebuilt Captain D’s here in Gallatin on East Main. Now, while doing that, he also, when he passed away in 2017, he left his home, known as Stonewall, or historic Stonewall, which actually sits adjacent to the Carriage House. This house was built in 1838, I believe, and that’s around 5600 square feet, and the Carriage House, I think, is 6500 square feet. And then also on the property, in the rear of the property sits the old county garage building. And I think it was built in the 1920s. So we have, in addition to our current museum, we have all these other properties that we are about to develop a strategic plan for. We’re going to be developing that January through probably March. So we’re going to be coming up with some really creative, strategic ideas and how to make this not only a tourist stop. But also something that’s going to be really beneficial to the county. John Haggard 12:40 So for someone who wants to come to the museum, Ryan, how long does it take to walk the floors, I think you said there are three and just to get through the entire museum. Ryan Baker 12:52 So usually, you could walk you could do a self-guided tour in 20 to 30 minutes if you want. It just depends on how fast you want to walk through and, and how much, how deep you want to dig. But a guided tour, myself, or our current volunteer curator, Chris Morris, we do most of the guided tours. And generally, you know, we could do depending on the age group, you know, somewhere around between an hour, an hour and a half for a guided tour. John Haggard 13:20 All right. Is there anything that people seem to misunderstand about the museum in any way? Ryan Baker 13:27 You know, a lot of people think that we are owned by the county, and we receive like regular county funding and things like that, but we’re not. Like I think I said earlier, we are private. And so we are, we’re responsible for raising all the funds, you know, to keep the museum running. John Haggard 13:45 As you get up every morning and you say, you know, I’m getting ready to go to work. Ryan, what would you say about your position, your job there that most inspires you? Ryan Baker 13:57 Well, for me, I get to learn something new almost every day. Gallatin has, Gallatin and Sumner County has such a rich history that most folks who live here are probably not aware of. So, for me, it’s just that opportunity to learn something new about our history and. And it’s really exciting and being able to share that with others, you know, through tours and, and special events and things like that. John Haggard 14:25 Is there anything I didn’t ask you that you would want people to know either about you or the museum? Ryan Baker 14:31 So let me tell you about some of the events that we hold at the museum. This just happened back in October, but our probably most popular event is our Annual Cemetery Tour. Wow. And so we portray people who are buried in the Gallatin City Cemetery. Now the first known burial there was, I think, 1818, so it’s over 200 years old. It’s a really unique setting. And so what we do is we lay out a path and usually portray about 10 characters. So we have actually volunteer actors in costume, who will tell the stories of different people buried in that cemetery. And usually, we have anywhere from 800 to like 1400 people come through and do that tour, and it’s a one night only for about five hours. It’s the first Saturday in October every year it follows the Main Street Festival that’s held Downtown. So that’s our most popular event. We also have a dinner that’s coming up pretty soon for Museum Association Members. So if you’re interested in learning more about the museum, becoming a member, finding out how you can get involved, that is a good event. We’re also hosting three nights on December the 8th, 9th, and 10th. That’s a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. An Appalachian Christmas dinner and that will sell out will have period food, an Appalachian Storyteller here alongside period music. And we do limit that to 40 people each night and it will sell out. Tickets are on sale now; you can find those through our Facebook page through that event. Let’s see we’re planning a new fundraiser that will be sometime in the spring. I don’t have a lot of details on that now, but that’s going to be something new probably. Probably have something to do with the roaring 20s and maybe even a little prohibition, thrown in that. So people can, you know, follow us on our Facebook page. That’s probably the best way to keep up with what’s going on with the museum. So our website is sumnercountymuseum.org and our Facebook page, you would just search for Sumner County Museum. John Haggard 16:42 All right back to that cemetery for just a moment. Is there one surprise in the cemetery maybe someone who is buried there that people would know or would not expect to be there, but who is? Ryan Baker 16:55 So I think of the few people off the top of my head. One was Governor William Trousdale. The Trousdale place was actually his city home, but he was governor of Tennessee for two years. And he was also known as the War Horse of Sumner County for his efforts, I believe, from the Revolutionary War, War of 1812. And then by the time the Civil War rolled around, he was too old to partake in that even though he wanted to. And then another notable character that’s buried there would be Sam Houston’s first wife. Sam Houston, who the city of Houston’s named after, his wife Eliza Allen, is buried there. And she was actually the first lady to a foreign country who never visited there. John Haggard 17:43 So the one thing about you, Ryan, that most people would not know that someone would really be surprised to know about you? Ryan Baker 17:51 So when my wife and I met about 10 years ago, I found out that she regularly attended Bonnaroo. So when we started dating, I went with her. I think it was 2010 for my first Bonnaroo Festival, and we have been back together every year since, except for the year that our daughter was born. We didn’t make it that year. John Haggard 18:18 So Ryan, what’s the best way for somebody to get in touch with you? Ryan Baker 18:23 Probably shoot me an email. That is ryan.baker@sumnercountymuseum.org. And yet it’s all spelled out- Sumner County Museum. John Haggard 18:35 All right. Well, that’s Ryan Baker, everybody. Thanks, Ryan. He’s the director of the Sumner County Museum on the podcast, our special edition guest today on the Miracle Chrysler Dodge Jeep Ram podcast. Join us again for another special edition in addition to our regular topics that we discussed on the best ways to purchase, lease, service, and maintain, accessorize and sell your vehicle for the highest resale value possible. And don’t forget right here on the website is a transcript of today’s podcast. You can easily refer to it for information at your fingertips. I’m your host, John Haggard. And we will see you next time.

In this podcast I share secrets and tips for catching large Yellowtail Snappers in the Florida Keys. This article was written by Outdoor Writer David Conway for Florida Sportsman Magazine and featured on the June 2018 Magazine cover. It’s yellowtail season in South Florida and the Keys, and we all love those days with perfect conditions, when the wind and current line up and your baits zip back to hungry fish in the chum line—but we don’t always get them. Capt. Ryan Van Fleet, of Good Karma Charters in Tavernier in the Keys, employs some down and dirty tactics for yellowtail for those days. These tactics can be used elsewhere in Florida of course, as yellowtail are widespread around the southern end of the state. They can also be used anywhere and anytime current runs a bit strong near reefs as they produce mutton snapper, mangrove snapper, grouper and other reef species. But wear your old clothes. Captain Ryan with Florida Keys "Flag" Yellowtail It’s only five miles to Capt. Ryan’s reef locations from his dock at Tavernier Creek Marina. The Gulf Stream swings close to the reef there, which can be great for access to pelagics fish like wahoo and dolphin, but can foul up reef fishing with its powerful current and clear water—making it hard to get a chum slick going and fool the sharp- eyed yellowtail. So Capt. Ryan learned to play dirty.“April through June, into July, are best to catch the big yellowtails. I like cloudy days, or low light conditions, like late in the day. If I’m offshore and having a slow day, I’ll wait until it’s late to go in and yellowtail, ‘cause you know it’s going to be good. For visitors to the Keys, if it’s bright and sunny and you don’t have a lot of chum, I’d go out and catch dolphin first and wait until late to go for yellowtail for a couple hours.” I made the 3 1⁄2 hour drive down to fish with Capt. Ryan on a spring morning. After lunch at Habanos at Tavernier Creek Marina, by 3 o’clock we were fishing at spots where, he said (and showed me the pics) he was catching 4- and 5-pound flag yellowtail the night before. I was a bit surprised—such nice yellowtail so close to the mainland? “I can get 4- and 5-pound yellowtails right here in Tavernier, and from what I’ve seen, it’s like that up and down the Keys. You just have to know where the congregations of those bigger fish live, and you have to stay in touch with it, because they do move.” Of course, for us, winds were up, pushed by the late season front we watched roll down on us from the north, and the current pushed right up onto the reef, against that wind. PUT YOUR CHIPS DOWN Bring one hundred pounds of chum in 25 pound blocks. “I like the Killer Bait brand.” He uses old cat litter bins to hold the frozen blocks. Start with 50 pounds in the water in two big, open-mouthed chum nets. Wait a bit before fishing, maybe 30 minutes, 45 minutes to get them biting. Later, once that 50 pounds is gone, drop down to 25, maybe to 10. “You don’t want to overfeed them. I like to get the fish up and get them eating so it’s easy. I commit to a spot and give it time, typically an hour or even more. The bigger fish tend to come later in the chum phase. You’ll also see that the grouper and the muttons will also sneak in after a while, and I’ll wait at least an hour to bottom fish for them.”   We were in 75 feet of water just off the reef. “There’s a reason why fish are here, and they’ll be nearby too if the reef is healthy, with good rocky bottom and lots of bait,” he says. “I don’t fish any spot over and over. I’ll move another hundred yards or two hundred or even a mile and fish there, so that I’m creating another productive plot. So if you go to one spot, and someone’s there, you’ll have another nearby spot you can go to.” Even if people are only in the Keys for a week, he tells them to do some research with depth finder and try a few different areas. With the wind picking up the line and the current running strong under the boat, it was tough to feel the bait sinking into the current and the line pulling off. So Ryan put the rod in the holder and fingered out the line. This takes some skill, because you have to feel the exact instant the fish takes the bait, then pick up the rod, close the bail and catch the fish. But fingering the line out gives you a better connection to feel the drift of the bait in the current. Your pull needs to match the pull of the current,” he says. “I’m not fighting the wind with the rod. The 30-pound braid cuts through the wind to let the bait drop, but I still might need to put the bait in a chum ball to get it down faster where the current will take it.” Ryan uses that 30-pound braided main- line and tries to get fish on his outfit with a 30-pound fluorocarbon leader of about six feet. If they’re line shy, he’ll switch down to the outfit with 15-pound leader. But he likes 30-pound because with it he can haul in the bigger fish fast and keep them from any sharks or ‘cudas.  He likes 3/0 Gamakatsu livebait hooks because they’re strong; they don’t bend and cost you fish. “The little yellowtail jigs, those hooks will bend.” We started to get the yellowtail, one at a time. For bait, he’ll use slivers of bonito, fresh dead goggle eye if he has them or slivers of speedo he’ll catch in the chum line with the ice-fishing rod he brings along. “That ice-fishing rig is perfect size for picking up bait by the boat.” Live pilchards are a great bait, if you can get them. The recycling bin on his deck is full of his loose chum. There’s no sand in it. It’s only scratch grains mixed with water. The product he uses is called Home Grown Layer Crumble. It’s yes—chicken feed. “I mix it with water until I get it the consistency of a dough ball. It binds up well, but it takes some mashing up. It holds together well in the saltwater. “If I get in a pinch and cannot get block chum, this stuff gets them to the boat without the use of raw chum,” he laughs. “It costs $30 for a 50-pound bag. I just added some fish oils and menhaden milk to the mix and put it in the chum bag. Just shake it and you’re set. Also works great for patch reef fishing.” Did I mention Capt. Ryan calls his spots the Fish Farm? For the chum ball, you bind up your hooked bait in the loose chum the size of the baseball. You drop the chum ball, let it sink down into the current, let it ride into the strike zone, then give the line a tug to pull it apart and attract the fish. Alternately, without a chum ball, cast out your bait, give it a head- start in the current, then throw out a handful of loose chum to cover your line. But the chum ball will help the bait sink faster in hard current. “Some guys will dilute their chum ball mixture into a slop,” he tells me, “and they’ll throw it out into the water to cloud it up and throw their line and get the fish feeding at the same time. That works really well on the bright days with really clear water.” We had a decent box of fish after two hours, including a nice mutton snapper, when the front came down and we had to duck back into the marina for safety. We waited it out, and headed back out for sun- set. “This is my favorite time to yellowtail of all,” Capt. Ryan said. “And the mangroves come out at night, too.” His clothes were absolutely splattered with chum. His boat was a mess. On the way out, he said, “There is another little trick to the menhaden chum. In the winter time, the fish get lethargic. They’ll eat the chum, but they won’t take the bait. Even on light leaders. Those winter days, I won’t even take out bait, just a lot of menhaden green chum (TournamentMaster green chum). For that trick—you get really dirty doing it, but when all else fails—there’s something in the menhaden green chum. It’s like little gizzards of fish, and you pick them out, looking through the thawed chum, and put ‘em on your hook and you’ll get bites. Everybody thinks I’m crazy, but I learned that trick from an old-timer, an old yellowtail fisherman, and those guys know how to fish.” HUMAN COMPETITON Let’s face it. In the Keys, barracuda and sharks aren’t your only competition. Get out there first, with a lot of chum. “If you’re coming in at 11 o’clock when everybody’s ch um slick has been going,” Capt. Ryan says, “you’re probably going to get your butt kicked and waste some money. They have the fish in their chum, and you’re not likely going to take them away. Remember, if the current is ripping, you’ll have to watch to see that your chumline isn’t blowing away to nothing and just staying on the surface. You can try the chum balls then.” As for proximity, you don’t want to be fishing in another guy’s chum slick. His general rule is, if he can hear their conversations, he ’s way too close. “There’s yellowtail up and down those reefs. So find an area where nobody’s fishing and try it,” he advises.     Learn more about how to catch Yellowtail Snapper in the Florida Keys by listening to my previous podcasts. https://tavernierfishingcharters.com/episode-013-i-cant-stop-catching-black-grouper/ https://tavernierfishingcharters.com/episode-036-yellowtail-snapper-secret-bait-for-flags-revealed-and-a-ballyhoo-rigging-tip/ https://tavernierfishingcharters.com/episode-036-yellowtail-snapper-secret-bait-for-flags-revealed-and-a-ballyhoo-rigging-tip/ https://tavernierfishingcharters.com/episode-034-how-to-catch-more-yellowtail-snapper-in-the-florida-keys-secrets-to-avoiding-the-tax-man/

WWE has finally brought back King of the Ring, So Ryan and myself picked our favorite King of the Ring Matches, we will talk about the current Tournament and then break down the matches we chose. Bret Hart vs Kurt Hennig KOTR 93 Shawn Michaels vs. British Bulldog – KOTR ’96UnderTaker vs Mankind KOTR '98Kurt Angle vs Shane KOTR '01Hart Foundation vs Legion of Doom & Sid KOTR '97Wade Barrett v Neville KOTR '15 iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/full-heel-podcast/id1238500437?mt=2 …PodBean- https://rafaelchaidez88.podbean.com/ FaceBook- https://www.facebook.com/FullHeelPodcast/ …Stitcher- https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/full-heel-podcast?refid=stpr

Thanks Mike Condon for the music and editing Patron @chrisvondoom1  @chrisvondoom1 - 1:01 @MothershipGames - 1:43, 27:23 @edhrec - 10:20, 29:35 @danaroach - 22:05, 34:36 @CMDRCentral_Max - 22:05, 29:18 @CCOPodcast, @CCOBrando, @dpkrausejr, @GingerJ0E - 22:05 @scryfall - 43:15 Ep 9 Community Spotlight: 706.12 Commander Rules! What is the Vegas Rotisserie Define what a rotisserie draft is It’s on Twitter It’s for Charity - Supporting Dell Children’s Hospital - https://www.dellchildrens.net  So Ryan tells me he has this idea he wants to tell me, but he wants to tell me to my face. We meet up for lunch at BDubs as we are wont to do. Ryan tells me about this rotisserie draft thing and as a fantasy football player I was TOTALLY in!  Charity This is REALLY important to us. Being able to use our podcast to make the world a better place has always been one of our biggest goals. Interaction with the community Having fun! The Idea def hit all of the checkboxes we want to be doing How we came up with the idea Thanks to the ppl who helped Kelly Lee BJ Peter T.H. Mike Huge Thank You to Lee for creating the spreadsheet!  The Mock Draft Drafters and their most likely commanders Dana - From @cmdrcentral Marchesa, the Black Rose Anafenza, the Foremost Max - From @cmdrcentral Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Ryan - From @CCOPodcast Horde of Notions Brando - From @CCOPodcast Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest Danny K - Friend of the show. Attender of GPs Mayael the Anima  Joe Hoffman - Friend of the show Golos, Tireless Pilgrim  Ryan Greene - One of your hometown heroes from @commander Social Yarok, the Desecrated  Zack Taylor  - One of your hometown heroes from @commander Social  Ryan - Talk about how I chose which commanders to pick Zack - Going with my the most A1 BOLD picks I can think of and going by my gut! We looked at what the most likely Commanders for each player would be Determined cards we thought might be highly contested Ryan - Ramp Zack - Enters the Battlefield effects Determined what cards would be most important to our decks strategy Picking cards for the 99 How we are making picks Community members can donate to their favorite content creator in the draft Each $5 donated to a player increases their overall budget by $1, and adds 5 points to their “Power-Up pool” “Cut the line” - 50 points - Make a pick instantly. Then the draft continues as normal. This does not take your turn for the round. Limit one per player “Wait your turn” - 100 points - Cause target drafter to go last this draft round. Limit one per player “Clone” - 250 points - This round you may select a card that has already been drafted. This allows you to break the rules of the rotisserie format. Limit one per player “Blatant Thievery” - 500 points - You steal a previously drafted card from another player. That player immediately makes a replacement pick. The player stolen from gets their budget returned for the stolen card. Limit one per player. Each player may spend their Power-Up points in the following manner: Community Engagement The Current Draft Here’s where the Rules/FAQ/Spreadsheet are https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/10oHVjnokpsGH1_PIrvSQv6Ikm6PdOXre?usp=sharing  We have made these publicly available, so that ANYONE out there can run their own rotisserie draft Main tab “Group Picks” pulls all the picks into one easy place for your group and/or the public to follow along Stops folks from picking duplicates. This is important when there are nearly 600 individual cards picked Tracks your balance for you Formats the tweet, so you literally just have to hit a single button, and it will Tweet your pick, your remaining budget, the hashtag you have chosen, and @ the next person whose turn is after yours Creates some nice little charts and graphs that show your mana curve, card types, and colors The spreadsheet does everything for you Determine your players - We’ve done a draft with exactly 8 players, because this makes for 2 pods of 4 players, and should ensure decently powerful decks Set a budget - We chose 200, and this excludes mana-producing lands, because we thought that might be less interesting to watch, and it allows people to only have to make 70 picks instead of 100 Determine your “Draft hours window”. Ours is currently from 10am - 10pm Central, but obviously this might change depending on your group Depending on how “available” your group is, this can take up to 4 weeks to make all of the picks How to run your own Rotisserie Draft https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.team&teamID=47038 Summary - This is super fun! We encourage anyone out there that has a playgroup to consider doing this. Let us know what you think, and there’s probably still time to get a donation in for a good cause: Main Topic - The Rotisserie Commander Social Intro and Outro ThemeRaindrop by Declan DP https://soundcloud.com/declandp Licensing Agreement 2.0 http://www.declandp.info/music-licensing Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/LbIb9_5_qNE Komiku - Battle of Pogs https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ Zack Gets it Together Theme Consider becoming a Patron: https://www.patreon.com/commandersocial You can check us out at commandersocial.com YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/CommanderSocial You can email us directly at cast@commandersocial.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/commandersocial On twitter @commandersocial twitch.tv/greenegeek Ryan individually @greenegeek Zack individually @z4ck38 Contact Info © Copyright 2019 Leaky Dinghy, LLC

We celebrate our show’s sweet sixteenth episode (it can drive now) by…Josh feeling bad with a headache. So Ryan alley oops him through a double header discussion about two sci-fi […]

So Ryan's still out of town, and Victor's still AirBNBing his room, so the Guys invited Vokaron and Bills over to go through some of the listener letters for Mack's birthday. A quick warning: Everybody (but Mouse) drank a little something, and it's gets pretty ignorant. Tune in!!! --- This episode is sponsored by · Zhou Nutrition: At Zhou Nutrition, we believe greatness comes from within. We make supplements in our own facilities in the heart of Utah with carefully crafted formulations to support essential wellness, mind, mood, beauty, and the keto lifestyle. https://www.zhounutrition.com/ · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

A warehouse disaster is a large concern for the bourbon industry, but some people in the community make jokes and laugh at the situation. Should this be considered normal? Heaven Hill phased out their 6 Year Bottled in Bond product that was a true bargain brand to many bourbon consumers and launched a very similar product with a 3X price increase. Was this a good move by Heaven Hill? Are they competing in a high price bracket? Did they just cannibalize their own products? Is this the first #KentuckySnub? We tackle all this and more on Bourbon Community Roundtable #34. Show Partners: Every batch Barrell Craft Spirits produces has a distinct flavor profile. They take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most, you. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Aged & Ore is running a special promotion on their new Travel Decanter. Get yours today at PursuitTravelDecanter.com. Receive $25 off your first order at Rackhouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week Ryan talks about launching a bourbon brand. Look for a new segment called Whiskey Quickie launching next week. Brian Harra’s Sazerac Brands v. Peristyle: Bourbon History Matters as a Matter of Law - https://brianhaaracom.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/haara-bourbon-history-matters-as-a-matter-of-law-ky-jeanrl-2019.pdf Jim Beam Warehouse Fire Heaven Hill 7-Year Bottled-in-Bond Was it the right move to discontinue 6-Year BIB and relaunch with 7-Year at a higher price point? Do you think this product competes with the Woodford and Knob Creek price point? Is Heaven Hill competing against themselves? Why wouldn't Heaven Hill launch in Kentucky on day one? How do you best support retailers that elevate prices for hard to find bottles? 0:00 My wife was like, I was like remember I got a podcast. She said ugh that's so annoying. 0:07 Didn't you just do one of those round tables and I'm like that was last month. 0:23 Hey everybody it is Episode 209 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny in the bourbon news cycle it moves quick. What's Trending one day is going to become pretty stale soon. And I'm sure many of you are like myself wanna bourbon warehouse collapses or when 45,000 barrels of bourbon go up in flames from a lightning strike at a gym be warehouse. We probably get a lot of messages in our inbox about it. And I kind of want to focus on this and say, where are we at today on the current situation. So on july fourth, the Woodford County Fire Department waited to extinguish the fire for a few days because as they said, there is less environmental 1:00 impact to allowing the ethanol just letting it continue to burn. Beam Suntory put out a press release saying that the barrels in the warehouse contain relatively young whiskey from the Jim Beam Asheville in the US, it will not impact the availability of the product to its customers. And they are going to be working with local state and federal agencies to conduct response operations. And now beyond just the whiskey, Jim Beam is looking at a $50 million loss. That would be the bourbon loss at around 45 million, with an estimated additional 5 million in the damages to the warehouses and the cleanup process. And that cleanup is going to be in response to a mass amount of bourbon that has entered the Ohio River after traveling more than 20 miles down the Kentucky River. And the Kentucky's division of Fish and Wildlife is already characterizing this bill as a severe fish kill. The officials are still continuing to assess the damage to the aquatic life. In a Facebook post on Monday, the Kentucky Energy and Environment cabinets 2:00 said that the department Fish and Wildlife Resources is on the river again, and they are continuing to assess the fish count killed and the results are continue to penned. They are also going to see dead and dying fish. People are using the Kentucky River in the area and they're going to start seeing and smelling the dead fish as well. Robert Francis, the manager of the emergency response team said that the bacteria in the water is going after the food source, which is the sugar and the alcohol so it ends up depleting the oxygen, the fish start to become distress and they eventually die. According to officials, the dead fish will decompose naturally with no harm to the river, so there's no plan to remove them, being Suntory is likely going to be handed a large fine once this comes to a close. If you've taken a drive in Bardstown, or Shively, Kentucky or really anywhere near a distillery or aging warehouses, you'll notice this sort of black fungus or film that grows on the side of rock houses and even find itself attached to road signs and surround 3:00 Holmes in 2007 when University of Toronto my colleges James Scott published an academic paper about the fungus, it pinned it on the whiskey industry. Dr. Scott discovered that this fungus which is he named but don't Yeah, after the man who first studied it in 1872 Anton but don't feeds on the ethanol vapor released by liquor as it ages. Since ethanol is denser than air, the evaporated Angel's share doesn't float up into the sky after all, but rather into the surrounding communities. In when it is airborne. Ethanol meets the slightest bit of moisture. It's going to be common because distilleries and towns are usually near those water sources. You get whiskey fungus all over the place. You can read more about this fungus and how it's plaguing neighboring towns from an article on but by Vice calm, which can be found in our show notes. This podcast, it's always been about education and our focus is how do we bring the biggest personalities behind bourbon to the forefront and get 4:00 listeners a chance to experience the hear directly from them. We never intended this podcast to be about Reiner. I am really what we think. And that's why we never did bourbon or whiskey reviews as a part of our format. However, over the years, people are continually asking us what we think of a particular bourbon. So we wanted to figure out a way to do just that without impacting our pretty much our schedule routine here. So next week, we are launching a new content stream that will be available through your current podcast subscription you're listening to right now, as well as YouTube and we're calling it whiskey quickie. as we did with the podcast. We researched the landscape of bourbon reviews on the Internet to see which format will be best for us, YouTube, it's a large segment and the reviews we watch went anywhere from five minutes upwards to almost an hour long. So we're setting off to make whiskey quickie unlike anything out there today. It's a whiskey review with no cutting and no editing and it will be 5:00 Done with a 62nd countdown timer. Sure it may sound rushed. But at first, these reviews are going to give you something else to listen to on Tuesdays while you wait for the usual Thursday podcast release. We're very excited to launch whiskey quickie. And the first episode will premiere on July 16. You can catch whiskey quickie right here on your existing podcast subscription. Or you can head over to YouTube and watch the video version. All right, I think I've talked enough. So let's get on with the bourbon Community Roundtable where we discuss the cultural implications of the Jim Beam fire as well as heaven hills seven year bottled in bond release. But before that, let's hear Joe from barrel bourbon. And then we've got a substitute for above the char with Ryan Cecil. 5:47 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from barrell craft spirits. Every batch we produce has a distinct flavor profile. We take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most, you. use our store locator to find a retail or a bar near you at barrellbourbon.com 6:02 I'm Ryan Cecil. Yep, that that third show loop. Fred's out of town and Portugal doing something really cool. So you have me this week, what I want to talk to you about is being in the whiskey business, and all the middlemen, and all the hands that are in your pocket. So when Kenny and I started a brand pursuit series, I had no idea how many hands and middlemen would be in our pockets, anywhere from ABC people, to the distributors, to the liquor store owners, to the lawyers, to the barrel brokers, to the label people to the cork people, to the glass people to every people in the world that gets their hand in our pocket, so we can bring someone some bourbon. But, you know, it's kind of frustrating. But then you think about it. And when I was on the phone with a distributor, his kids got in the car. And I was like, well wait a minute. This guy's a family has to pay for. Well, he deserves that. And then you start to 7:00 Thinking about the ABC person that's following your paperwork. And you're like, well, they have a family. I guess they deserve it too. And then you think about the liquor store, and the landlord, and all the people who just make everything happen. And then I'm like, Well, I guess they do deserve it. And so while it is very frustrating, and very 7:20 just greedy of me, selfishly, because I am a consumer, and I proprietor and creator of product that I want to bring the best possible product to my consumers at the best cost. But then, you know, there's a lot of people that were supporting along the way, and it kind of gives me good perspective about why things are the final price they are as they sit on the bar, and that's this week's above the char. Hope I didn't blow it. And we'll see you next time. 7:54 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon Kenny and I 8:00 Ryan here tonight on deep bourbon Community Roundtable number 34. This is where we talk about all the recent news, things have been happening inside the bourbon world and tonight is going to be it's gonna be light on topics, but it's going to be very, very heavy topic. So I'm kind of really excited to talk about this one. But before we jump into it, Ryan, what's been what's been new in your world recently? sweating a lot. It's hotter than hell, the humidity. Like, I think it's like our 12th or 13th day in a row 90 degrees, and it's like, Oh, God, but now it's, uh, I'm excited for the night we actually each of us will probably have some room to talk like, I'm looking at the tiles in front of me and there's, you know, only 1234 you know, where there's normally like, 10. So we all have our chance to chime in. So I like it. Yeah, that's you and you know, you mentioned that humidity I look at is a good thing. Because I always like to think that I'm walking and I'm sweating. I'm losing weight, but maybe it's just not that maybe it really is just the humidity. there and then 9:00 You drink one of those stats and you're like, right back. 9:04 It's like I keep gaining weight but I've been actually sweating too much. That's I don't think that's how it's supposed to work. Yeah, just like working out or go into the sauna or the same thing. Yeah, and white but sweating out those demons. So exactly for sure. Alright, so as usual we're going to do is we're going to go around the horn. So I'm going to go start off my left are Cal Ripken of the bourbon Community Roundtable. Blake welcome back. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is the what are we at 37th round table close. 34 is incredible. round tables. Yeah. So congratulations to everyone on that. Now always great to be here. I'm Blake from bourbon or you can find me on all the inter webs and social medias Bo you are Bo in our calm as well as seal box calm as well. For all your craft beer needs. That's s e l ba ch s Thanks for having me. Spirit shipped right to your 10:00 Door it's about as easy as you can get. Yeah. 10:03 There's, there's no waiting in lines. There's no car. No camping out, you just, you know flip, just go on your own and it's there. It's sometimes free too. So just 10:16 depending on the tear up 10:19 bad we messed things up. It made me show up free 10:22 billing system. 10:26 Nick, go ahead. Alright, I'm Nick from breaking bourbon, one of the three guys behind breaking bourbon breaking bourbon. com. Check us out Facebook, Twitter, Instagram at breaking bourbon. And, hey, glad Glad to be here. I'm kind of back and forth between myself and Jordan. And I think over the past weekend, we convince Eric to start joining in a little bit more too. So you'll see that the man behind the man I think a little bit more here this year. Oh secret 10:55 coming off the bench, like it. And so Nick one thing that I noticed in your back 11:00 Ground was, you all did a new roof pic recently that went through seal box yet a pretty funny yet a pretty funny sticker behind it. I also want you to kind of talk about that one. Yeah, so these are some of the pics here. It's actually still still waiting on my bottles but it's just a test sticker on there if you can see that. So we kind of wanted to play with the other end of the rift thing. So wrestlers mom, Striffler, you know, so Steve sticklers, everybody they can relate to that, interestingly, just had a 20 year reunion so that movie actually came out American Pie came out during the summer after graduation of high school and before college so needless to say it was a fun summer. But as soon as that kind of came up and and we started a band around the idea, I think it just stuck and so we went with so how many more riff ideas are there going to be out there? 11:56 I've had more inquiries about wrestlers, moms, people seeing the sticker inside 12:00 Hey, so how do I get one of those? Like, well, you got to be the number one Patreon supporter I guess so. 12:06 Drinking bourbon. 12:09 They are sold out though now to think right Blake they sold out today through the major supporters, but 12:17 it didn't take long. No, no, no. I've seen Ken Griffey Jr. I've seen Rick James. 12:25 Yeah. So so we got a few more riff puns, I think still available but riff a mania. Yeah, there's there's so many out there. There's a lot of good ones too. Alright. And so to our resident lawyer, Brian, how's it going? Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me again. Great to be here. This is Brian with sip and corn. You can find me on Twitter Instagram now finally and and Facebook at sipping corn and online at sipping corn calm or bourbon justice calm and again. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to this one. It's so before we dive into it, Brian did I see something it was posted by Brad at little bit earlier today. I guess 13:00 There was a paper or something that was published that that you had done recently that he finally said, at least he put it on his Facebook for me that's no bread Atlas. he's a he's a friend of the show he was on talking about four roses and barrel pics and stuff like that. But he said that he was quoted in one of your I don't want to say like dissertation. I don't know what you call it, but you know, whatever it is. Well, yeah, it's it's close to that. It's basically the scholarly journal side of of what lawyers do. And I had an article published in a Law Journal from University of Kentucky and I for the bourbon history and to make a point about how much bourbon enthusiast dive deep into these issues, quoted some of his articles from bourbon and banter. I've had a breaking breaking bourbon citation on there had bourbon truth on there. So I was trying to make a few points about how deep we all dies and how into the weeds we get and those definitely pretty 14:00 Did some of the best examples for it. 14:02 Alright, so Ryan may need to step up our game and just not like bullshit about stuff but put some facts out there 14:09 are optional. 14:12 I can understand why you leave us out. I wouldn't want to be cross check the reference, you know, for for my facts. I appreciate being on that Brian, that was the two year storage experiment. And that was definitely our longest dive in anything. How it was a great deep dive, you know, the oxidation effects. I mean, that was that was fantastic. Yeah, I tried to find a quote from the round table and I just couldn't find anything with factual support. 14:41 The only factual support was actually the stuff that you contributed to. 14:45 I don't want to cite myself. So I caught myself from the Harrison podcast, although I didn't have a plug for the book and the article, so I can't say I didn't quote myself, but 14:56 yeah, so I'll for anybody that's curious about what that is. I'll make sure I put it in 15:00 Show Notes the podcast so you can go and check that out at your own leisure because it is it is a long long thing to read. I scroll through like the first two pages and I was like am I almost done? Oh crap is like 18 more to go so I I'll put that out there if somebody else that wants to see it. Yeah, that's the insomnia cure it is maybe just just go to the to the parts where I quote the fellow bloggers and then be done. That's fine. Perfect. 15:26 So there you go, Kenny. 15:29 I don't know. Let's let's see how much I can drink tonight. We'll see you go to sleep later. 15:33 There you go. Yeah. So let's go ahead and let's move on to our first topic of conversation tonight. And this one is really focused around that was it was the big news last week. In this was the Jim Beam warehouse fire. It's estimated somewhere around like 45,000 barrels may have been lost in the gym be warehouse fire. And this is just down the road of castle and key in the Glens Creek distillery near Milledgeville, Kentucky. And if you put this into perspective 16:00 That's about half of the 92,000 barrels that were lost during the heaven Hill distillery fire of 96. And that's when seven Rick houses had actually burned to the ground. And at that time, that loss represented about 2% of the nation's bourbon supply at that time. And I think we can all kind of look at it and really say that this is a this is a big travesty, right? This is a tragedy for all that involved. There were people that were commenting and saying things like, Oh, it's only white label, who cares are saying, Oh, I have pre fire odd 114 and I'll go ahead and post it for sale. Or people were joking and saying as jack daniels starting the fire saying how Alcoholics Anonymous benefit from it. I mean, let's take a step back and think about it like, is this really like the current state of affairs of what we see? 17:00 In the bourbon community and what we should expect when something like this happens when there's millions and millions of dollars on the line for a very large organization, there are firefighters that are sitting there trying to contain the fire that are trying not to spread to people's homes in the area, and people are just just making  jokes at him. I mean, is this is this natural? Like, is this what we could expect from here on out? I think one thing to point out is that no one got injured or died or anything in it, which is the key thing, I think the mood could have been very different. If that was the case and that scene right up front that was the message that was out there. And I think because of that, you know that the tone was able to be different or you know, people may be felt they could, you know, be different with the tone as a result of that. And that's really probably the biggest thing is that you know, you have these what could be really pretty scary incidents happening that you know, fortunately we haven't had you know, anything really seriously happen anyone to get injured or 18:00 You're killed, you know, more more recently in some of these more major, highly publicized ones. So I think that plays into it in this case as well. Yeah, it's kind of been a blackout for bourbon warehouses the past two years. I mean, it's like how many more can like, you know, get some, some natural disaster or something collapse? It's like, it just kind of makes you realize that, like, how old this stuff is, and like, I don't know, that kind of needs, probably some intervention, maybe to kind of protect them more like not just like, Oh, it's been there. It's been built forever. It's all good, you know, so. Yeah, it's just it's just been happening too much lately, I think. And it's kind of serious because we all go and barrel pics and we're all in those things. And tons of tourists go in and out of them. I'm really just, 18:49 you know, it's just kind of scary. You know that all this has happened so much recently. So I think people need to take it more seriously than then than just, oh, it's a white label or it's 19:00 Don't drink the water that's going in, you know, they'll Fall River don't drink it. You know, it's it's definitely more serious than that. So it's something we need to the community needs take serious and you know, the the distilleries as well. 19:12 Yeah, I think that's there's there's a few comments in the chat saying, you know, is this a Rick house problem ovulate like is it is it the age it's catching up on these things? You know, the Barton side that most certainly could have been a problem because there was maybe lack of oversight in regards of maintenance or something like that. However, this this what happened to Jim Beam was a lightning strike. And from what I understand is that lightning poles are pretty ubiquitous anywhere. So they're, they're stationed around the properties and that's what's supposed to basically detract the lightning to go away from most of the warehouses. They're installed in a lot of places. However, you know, it's lightning. So by Reza lightning hopefully doesn't strike twice in the right spot or the single sure, but the the 20:00 warehouses are grandfathered. They don't have sufficient sprinkler systems like the new ones. If you have a if you're Rick is so many barrels, you're not required to have them. It's like, okay, you know, the these are like serious things that, you know that, you know, people can get hurt and I think they need to take it seriously. That's just not some warehouse out there. 20:21 I don't know. Yeah, this this used to happen a lot more historically. I mean, there were five I don't know about the collapses, but there were definitely fires. And there were all kinds of injuries and in warehouses in it distilleries generally. So I think we're probably looking at it in the context of the big bourbon boom lately, so we're all more people are paying attention to it. I mean, if this happened 10 years ago, probably barely be a blip. But sure fires happen. And I think what we might see is is a change to have the the ground built up around them to contain 21:00 The any spirits that get out because we've got a fish kill on the Kentucky River now i mean it's it's a real ecological problem when this happens so I expect to see some some of this grandfather and kind of get questioned and in some of these warehouses might need to be brought up to more current code yeah I think the you know the cynicism is kind of natural and in anything like this you know think just about anything serious that happens there's going to be somebody in a lot of us take this as a hobby so it's only natural to joke about it when you know in real life there's people whose livelihoods and all that kind of depend on it which you know you look at this and while beams a massive Corporation This is probably still a $40 million plus loss so that that is a big thing that should be taken serious. I know David from rare bird was saying I think it was on Twitter somewhere just like 22:00 This is just what happens with something like this. You're just going to have the people joking around about it. And it's unfortunate to an extent but at some point it's like, you know what else are we can't just sit here and mourn the loss of barrels as well you know, as long as nobody got hurt 22:16 I don't know the I'm not going to be posting a bunch of pre fire Jim Beam jokes, but at the same time, we didn't delete them from the bourbon or group either. I didn't feel like it was that offensive? I guess I 22:28 heard a whole lot more offensive stuff then then warehouse jokes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I agree with that. And I just kind of took it took it in stride. It's going to happen. 22:41 Any kind of news is going to get turned into a meme these days. And that's not the bourbon world. That's that's anything you know, that very serious issues happen and somehow it becomes like, a funny picture with some words on it. 22:54 And sometimes you need comic relief for service, what kind of helping me to pass that or it doesn't 23:00 seem like it's been happening a lot. And maybe that's just because we're focusing on a lot more. Now, you know, it's, it's interesting to hear Brian say that this was very, was much more prevalent, you know, long time ago, you know, I guess maybe 30 4050 years ago 23:17 but you would think we'd have a little more safeguards in place to stop some of the stuff especially like the collapses you know, you think building codes and everything would and inspections would improve that kind of stuff, but lightning strike that's pretty you can't really avoid that unless you just have fire sprinkler systems and that kind of stuff. 23:39 Yeah, absolutely. And Blake you kind of reminded me something of like you know, you and you to to Ryan of saying like you have to make light of a certain situation, you know, and I don't know like when the the too soon thing really, you know, supposed to like play a part into this. But, you know, it reminds me of like one of my favorite comedians is Daniel Tosh. And he says like, nothing is off limits. 24:00 And it's kind of funny it's like I think about it now thinking back I was like yeah well maybe maybe when is that that boundary or that you know whenever Can you say something about it and and I guess in this light you look at it you say well at this point it is a financial loss there was nobody that was hurt there were people that put their lives on the line but it wasn't to the point where you know it's it's not like any of us had like a barrel in there that was like our thing and we're like running in there to go save it right it was it was just like it was a contained fire. They let it burn. I think I read a news article on who he is or something like that they were talking to one of the fire marshals and they're like yes is the best smelling fire we've ever been to you know it's like one of those things that even the fire marshals are kind of having a good time with it you know i but i think it might just be in in poor taste sometimes if it's like 30 minutes minute Yeah, yeah. Like hey, let's let I was gonna use upon us. Let's let the fire settle or dust settle. 25:01 Now my digit but you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, give it a little bit of time. Make sure everyone's Okay. And then it's like, okay, it's fine. Today's Blake, you're clear. I'm good. Okay, good. Good. 25:11 I mean, I've heard estimates says is like $270 million in losses. 25:16 That seems like a lot for 45,000 barrels. Well, I mean, you got think 5000 a barrel, you know, probably, I mean, it's cheap stuff that they're getting, like, probably 250 plus bottles out of I mean, and then you times about 40,000. So I don't know that's I was thinking replacement cost. Yeah, you gotta wonder what the 25:36 $250 a barrel, then they've got to rebuild the warehouse. 25:42 But, yeah, I could be way off in one opportunity costs too. So you're just it's just proud of you that they don't take. I guess they do have a min sure. But you know, it seems like okay, I could spend 500 grand on a warehouse to get sprinkler or whatever you know, correctly to help. Save maybe I don't know. 26:00 Maybe I'll just lay off all our Donald music or Donald Blanco. 26:05 It was tragic to me those this and people keep calling it the beam fire, which of course it is. But it's it's Old Crow. And I don't know when these I didn't pay attention when these were built. But this is a distillery built in the 18 seven days I think it was 1870 I think is when old crows built. I don't know if those date back that long. But if if ever we were going to have a revitalization of the Old Crow brand and if they were ever going to bring that distillery back as some kind of tour destination like they have that old Taylor for castle and key mean we're losing out on those opportunities and and that's, that's what bums me out the most since there wasn't any injuries about this. Brian, I think you bring up a good point too, because I know Fred, who couldn't be on tonight. He kind of made a mentioned to me in a text message and saying like, this is this is scary. 27:00 You know it was going was happening is like not just for the fire and everything he's like he's talking about the visitors like the people of bourbon and really what this can mean, saying that this should if if more of these things happen whether they're fires, whether warehouse collapses, any sort of distillery mishap that makes headlines, he said this could completely change any visitor experience you ever go to. It could completely change any barrel pic experience you ever go on. Like they could eventually get to the day where they're saying like no, like, we're not allowing anybody else in the warehouses, like we're getting a hard hat or anything like that, you know, I mean, Kenny and I experienced that for Barton pick 79 to pick and you know, there was lightning in the air and they're like, no way we're gonna do it inside and it's not as fun, you know, being in a little tasting room, but luckily the skies cleared and they let us go back in there. But yeah, it's your he's totally right. And it's for the right reasons, though. Sure, absolutely. is legitimately it's it's legitimate, but actually 28:00 I always think when I think of the sterile experience, I think of the heaven Hill downtown. I mean, it's, it's like Disney Land, and you don't get any sort of real experience there. And that's, I mean, that's could be what this turns into if the insurance companies won't insure the distilleries if they let people in, I mean, that's who's going to drive it. It's can you get coverage? Or can you get coverage that you can afford? And maybe you have to limit it to visitor centers and kind of the Disneyland look. Yeah. Right. There would be a detriment that would be a sad thing to see happen. Yep. But I would play this angle though to you know, I get sent a link in that from a lot of people are outside of bourbon who just know that I'm into bourbon and so they sent the link but from somebody's perspective, that's not really involved in bourbon. You know, they're so bombarded with bad things happening all the time. You know, do you look at something like this and not really think anything of it? You know, because you're not involved. No one was injured or hurt you 29:00 You see bad so much worse stuff than this happen on a daily basis in the news, depending on what you watch, you know, so in the big scheme of things, it the impact is really a lot more just, you know, the enthusiast and that specific kind of bourbon crowd or the potential impact is there, you know, in addition to the environmental stuff, you know, but again, that gets to kind of just all those bad things just cycling through the news on a daily basis. No, you're totally right. And and who knows if this might have been a you know, a smaller craft distillery who knows if you made headlines especially around the nation just because of the size and the impact it what it was I mean, you know, if I saw a quote from john little from smooth Ambler he put on Facebook and you know, he said that it's sad to see these kind of incidents like no matter the size of the company, and he says I often put myself in smooth anglers position and a tragedy like this would be completely devastating to his type of business. So it definitely is a scalar 30:00 too. Wow when it comes to it, so, yeah, they lose 45,000 barrels. They're done. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I think at this point I think we can kind of move on we've we're all we're all kind of fired up. Is it too soon? 30:18 For a pre fire heaven Hill. Alright, so, so I won't do that. But yeah, now we're going to go into kind of the the next topic and this is the one that I think it's might have been a little bit old news by now but we're going to go ahead and kind of spark the situation back up because it's the roundtable and why not because this is gonna be a lot of the opinions of really what we see of what's happening inside of the the bourbon community and everything like that. So everybody kind of remembers about, oh gosh, what was it about a year and a half ago, and this was something that we had talked about in the roundtable plenty of times. Nick had talked about it, saying you know, every time I come down to Kentucky what I do, I grab a few bottles of 31:00 Heaven hills six year bottle and bond and I take it back home with me it's some of the best bourbon at $12 a you know 750 ml that you can get on the shelves. In a year and a half ago they had announced that there was going to be a I guess the retirement or the phasing out of this particular product. When that announcement happened shelves started clearing I mean gone and Kentucky here and there and everywhere. It ended up getting the point where I think now you can actually still get on the secondary market. It's somewhere around like $40 for 750. So you get scarcity. People hoard it people buy it up. This is what happens. And now since they did discontinue a beloved $12 six year product and they haven't Hill is now I don't want to say relaunching they are launching almost a similar product. It is their seven year heaven Hill, bottle and bond. So with this comes a few different things, you get an additional year. It's just 32:00 Bottom bond so it's still 100 proof however it comes with a 233% price increase about three times the price. So you're going from $12 so around 3999 MSRP and with this It also comes in its initial launch is also limited availability only available in like I think eight states across the US. So before we start diving into kind of like the business side how do we compare this other things in the market but look at I'm going to kind of pose it to you all and Ryan I'll I'll kind of ask you first. Was this the right move by Heaven hill? 32:37 You know, I love heaven Hill, but man, they bought a lot of things like the logic Craig 12 year age statement, like moving into the back label, then moving it to the side and then saying, No, it's not going away. And then it goes away, you know, and then this, it's like, I don't care what they do, just like see up for about it. Who cares? You know, like, I'm still gonna love you. But uh, I think 33:00 Yeah, they should have just been like, Hey guys, given the market, we have a great product. You know, there's stuff out there on the market. That's whitelist age. Not as good. You know, with a bigger price tag, we feel like this is what it's worth. And here you go, and I would have been like, yep, you're totally right. I totally agree with you. Give me my seven year for 40 bucks, but not still will do that because it's gonna be a great product but uh, yeah, it's just I don't know why they do that. I just don't understand but but I will say that I am wearing my heaven Hill hat tonight to make sure that I am showing support for the brand because I still love the brand. Yeah, of course. 33:37 And yeah, I mean, it is. I don't know I mean, I don't know if it's a dagger to the heart for a lot of bourbon consumers or bourbon lovers out there because you're wrong like this is on the shelves for a very, very long time around here and it's not like it was flying off. It was just, it was just a it was a great value for what it was. But before we do that, you know, dive into more of it. Blake kind of talk about your side. Do you think this was the right move by Heaven Hill to 34:00 to kind of get rid of it and relaunch it. Yeah, I think it was definitely the right move. Not from you know, my perspective as a consumer, but from a business standpoint, it was the best move they can make. You know, I can't imagine what the cost is on a, you know, six year old bourbon, but the margins probably weren't huge. They've basically learned through all these other things of, you know, moving the the 12 year to the back labeled and pulling it off completely then kind of redesigning the laser Craig barrel proof and, you know, they took away Elijah Craig 18 year and reintroduced it a couple years later at four times the price three times the price around there, they realize they can kind of do whatever they want. And yes, a small group of us will kind of cry foul but overall the market still embraces it and still buys it and, you know, it's just kind of keep doing what they want to do. 35:00 And they know that the that the product was undervalued. So they said, Okay, let's put it out at a higher price people will still buy in, it's still a pretty good deal. You know, I have a different perspective on it because I'm not in Kentucky. So it's not something I could regularly get. 35:17 So it's not like I'm missing out on anything. It's in my mind. I'm, it's a plus to me, because I'll actually now have a 30 to $40 What's the retail 4040 $40 bottom, but in that I'm just going to go by Elijah Craig, which is, you know, slightly proof down but probably a little bit older. 35:39 So, I mean, from a business standpoint, I think that's ultimately the right move. And we have given heaven Hill more than enough reason to believe that the market will not care and they'll still go buy it. So yeah, well, 35:54 yeah, 90% of market that probably didn't even know that it was like Kentucky, only six year product. 36:00 999 or whatever so you know, who gives a shit about these Barkin few that now that could turn on them really quickly if things start to get a little bit tighter and they need, you know the enthusiast market again, but I still think we're a little ways out on that happening. Yeah, so I don't know. I mean, what I've loved to see another great value bourbon that's still really underpriced. Yes, of course, I think we'd all want to see that. But at the end of the day, it's a business and yeah, I'm guessing they made the right business move. I just have one more point before we move on Kenny to the next person. I think the biggest travesty here is that like you said, you'll go by logic Craig for whatever or Henry McKenna whatever Well, they're going up to so that's just the nature of the progression that's happening here and so it's just gonna slowly move on. brands. You know, you look at it heaven hills had bought 37:00 far the most value based Bourbons for the longest time you know you think of Henry mechanics in your you think of Evan Williams single barrel you think of Elijah Craig was 12 years for a light while even the ledger credit barrel proof in my mind is still a pretty good by depending on where you are. It's a great you know, j w Dan bottled in bond like that is a great bottle for $20. So, you know, while we want to kind of cast that first stone, it's kind of like there's still a lot of other great bourbon out there. 37:35 So that's why it's like hey, Cashin make your money go make build some more warehouses or something. 37:41 Yeah. So Nicole, can I ask you a question? Like, do you think the the idea with this was to try and compete with other brands in the market like the Woodford and the knob creaks that are around that $40 price range? You know, I think it's interesting thinking about before I answer 38:00 That question thing about the progression that it took, which was the undiscovered, nobody talked about it. It's in maybe dusty on the shelf for 12 bucks in Kentucky, and then it kind of got discovered. And that's when you started at people were outside of Kentucky coming in, like me, I was one of them. And I would buy a lot of it just because quite frankly, the price was really the draw it was the value relative to the price, it was good for the price. And it's not like I stockpiled it, that's what I would take to a party and I would leave the bottle there. And then I'd get texts from whoever's house it was those a party saying, Hey, I'm drinking this now. And I'd be like, fantastic. You know, it's only available in Kentucky enjoy it, you know, that kind of a thing. And then I think what happened was you started seeing more people clear the shelves because it kind of became obvious that maybe this wasn't going to go on forever, and it was such a good value. And so looking at the perspective from heaven Hill, you know, why sit there and let that happen. If the idea was it's kind of always available for people in Kentucky, and suddenly kind of not available. It looks like it's not going to be available. You're not really doing 39:00 Anyone any favor? So I agree, I think that was a smart move exactly how they went about doing it and why I think that's kind of the next question that you're asking Kenny is, you know, what is this product? What is it supposed to be? What's their goal with the product? I remember them talking about Elijah Craig, and saying, well, we could have kept a 12 year on and just raise the price. But they said, We don't want it. We want a product that's successful, we really want to keep the price about the same. How do we do that we want to build a brand and have this really always on shelves, we don't want it to be well, or 12. We want it to be go to the store and you can buy it, you know, that type of thing. So now the question is, is is this going to be their flagship? 39:37 Do they want this available? Always, you know, everybody, do they want you to comparing it to like, is that a Woodford or something like that? I think that's yet to be determined. You know, I think they had to do something to it, you know, changing the price a lot. They added a year to it. It's kind of like we can't just do the exact same thing. And then it looks a lot more I think what would be iconic or symbolic of where their branding and 40:00 Where everything is going, you know, where it does really come across as here's a representation of us. They push bottled in bond, I start to wonder if how much they push value versus we perceived value. It's kind of a curious point of mine is, where does that come from? Because it does step outside of that boundary. And I think it does step outside that boundary of everything's overwhelmingly high value. Now, you're asking the question, saying, well, this maybe isn't, you know, and you know, to that the price might be the same for the next 10 years. And they may know that to that you don't see a lot of these really creep up in price unless the retailers are doing a lot of times they'll keep them the same. So I think that's yet to be determined, where we're really going to see this and how it's going to be, you know, kind of viewed and consumed in the marketplace and where they want that, you know, the consumer today, Brian, I want to kind of let you kind of give your your opinion. I mean, do you think this is this is competing within those those different price points of the woods and they're not creeks that are out there? 40:58 Hey, it's Kenny here, and I want to tell you 41:00 About the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. It will be happening on August 24. In Frankfort, Kentucky. It's called bourbon on the banks. You get to enjoy bourbon beer and wine from regional and national distilleries while you struggle with things along the scenic Kentucky River. There's also going to be food vendors from regional award winning chefs. Plus you get to meet the master distillers and brand ambassadors you've heard on the show, but the kicker is bourbon pursuit. We're going to be there in our very own booth as well. Your $65 ticket includes everything all food and beverage on Saturday. Plus, you can come on Friday for the free Bourbon Street on Broadway event. Don't wait, go and buy your tickets now at bourbon on the banks.org 41:46 Hey everyone, Ryan here and I know when I celebrate a weekend with friends, I want to bring some of my best bourbon. However, if I'm on a car, a plane, it's not convenient. Plus my bottles are clinging around they're not really secure. So I have the perfect solution. 42:00 Aged & Ore travel decanter allows me to put two thirds of my prize bottle and its unique tumbler. It's great for camping or really any outdoor activity with the built into outdoor lines. I know I'm giving my friends just the right amount of my special bourbon. Go Learn more at pursuit travel decanter.com to get yours today. 42:18 You've probably heard of finishing beer using whiskey barrels, but a Michigan distillery is doing the opposite. They're using beer barrels to finish their whiskey. New Holland spirits claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey. The folks at Rock house whiskey club heard that claim and had to visit the banks of Lake Michigan to check it out. It all began when New Holland brewing launched in 97. Their Dragon's milk beer is America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out. In 2005. They applied their expertise from brewing and began distilling at beer barrel finished whiskey began production 2012 and rock house was the club is featuring it in their next box. The barrels come from Tennessee get build a dragon's milk beer twice the mature bourbon is finished and those very same barrel 43:00 Rackhouse whiskey club is whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories from craft distillers across the US. Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rack houses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in over 40 states. Go to rack house whiskey club com to check it out and try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 43:28 Brian, I want to kind of let you kind of give your your opinion i mean do you think this is this is competing within those those different price points of the woods and the knob Creek center out there? Well $40 is the new $25 and everything that we used to be able to get just five to eight years ago now is going to be $40. So as consumers we just have to accept that. What really struck me the most about this is is a few days after this happened. I was at a continuing legal 44:00 seminar and the Katie a was had a presenter there. And she was and I'd heard this before but totally forgot it. She was saying that 60% of $1 for your spirits purchase in Kentucky goes to Texas. So you've got a you've got a $12 bottle and you've got just over $7 of that goes to some way shape or form to Texas. Heaven Hill can't can't make I mean, I'm sure they're doing fine. But hold on, hold on. You forget the retail who makes money off the retail who makes money in distributor? And then so you have what's left of the actual producer? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I mean, it's you can't you can't sell bourbon for 1199. You just can't. I always treated the the six year as sort of my, my, 44:50 my bar if you had a craft whiskey. That was that was however old and you couldn't be better than a 60 year heaven Hill bottle of 45:00 Bond wasn't going to be worth spending $60 on it when you can get it when I could get at least in Kentucky a $12 bottle of fantastic bourbon. So I as a consumer, I'm sad about it as looking at it from heaven hills perspective, it's a no brainer to Nick's point I totally agree this is so much better than if they had done the exact same product exact same bottle exact same label, cheap plastic white screw top and increase the price to $40 that they couldn't do that they had to do some premium make some premium changes to it. And and they've done that you know that with with the cork and the label and everything else. So it's people are going to buy it, it's it's going to be worth it, you know, air quotes worth it. But as a consumer, I'm sad about it, but it makes sense. I just don't understand why can't they just be honest, like I just don't get what's the advantage of 46:00 Like, let's pull it off the marquee and we'll pretend like we just hit it and we're not 46:07 there they forget about people forget about it. And then it's like, I want to 46:13 like go to bye bye present with your kid at Target and be like, okay, I'll go hide in the closet some Christmas. I mean, I just want to go on these border meetings and be like, Are you serious? Like, do you think we're that stupid? Like, like consumers? I stupid? I guess. It's my point that most of these distilleries just don't care about consumers. But uh, anyways, I don't care. I totally understand why they're doing it. Yes. $12 a bottle. I mean, we sell bourbon. We can't sell. I couldn't even sell it for $90 a bottle and make money so it's, I totally get it. Just don't be. Don't fool us. We're not idiots like it. Was that the case though? Or was it just you know, I guess looking at it. I'm not at all surprised even when it happened. I really kind of assumed this was coming. I was just not sure what it was going to be exactly. And all 47:00 Lot of cm, I'm surprised the prices as low as it is I kind of thought they were going to go more the old Fitz route and have more of a premium thing and kind of step it up that much. So because it is more of the every day price of what you're seeing now, like you said, the new 40s, the new 25, it actually had me a little excited of Hey, this is something hopefully, I can go by now and it's a little bit older, I assume it's going to taste a little bit different than what the six year was. And I'm not really sure. You know, with all these discussions, they knew exactly what the plan was going to be for that they would want to say anything until it was coming. You know, do you want to say it a year before it's ready, you know, because they went from six to seven, you know, or was it 47:43 you know, they just thought the time would be the key that they just thought Oh, after a year people were would forget that's it. I think they got mad as her Brooks won some awards that said, 47:53 you know, screw this was when we all appreciate a press release at this point that just says 48:00 Guys we're gonna make some more money so right 48:04 in your blindly buying anything on the shelf and anything with hundred dollar price tag your dumb uncle's definitely buy in so 48:15 y'all pay way too much attention to bourbon like just take a backseat on this one. It's okay. Yeah, I actually think there's a whole brand opportunity there Blake versus that brand. They just jokes about everything. It's called it and it's 48:29 Yeah. 48:31 That would be incredible though. I would be like, I don't know. I think it would be so awesome if they did that. But instead they gotta do this. You know, play behind the scenes. Ping Pong match. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're right. like nobody, nobody that pays attention to stuff whatever. Forget it, especially for a product that was iconic to I would say a lot of us but at least people that are well known or should I say really know the bourbon landscape very well, like they know about the product. They 49:00 They know where to find it and they know about it. Now the other side of this is perhaps it wasn't their favorite, right? It's a value budget bourbon like that's what they loved about it. It wasn't necessarily say like, Oh, this is this is my unicorn, right? It's not that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be that this is a budget bourbon. But Ryan you'd also mentioned the Ezra Brooks point of view, and I kinda want to look at the competing l side of the market because anybody that okay I mean, well, let's say like as a Brooks barrel proof is basically contract is still haven't helped, right? It's the same exact thing. And now so we're looking at the difference of a barrel proof products from heaven hill at the seven year age David, versus the heaven hell product bottle and bond less proof and the same price point. 49:50 Like, yeah, like, like what gives? So that's that's comes another point like, now who are they competing with? Are they competing against themselves? 49:59 Yeah, no. 50:00 There's no question there's a high value. So to with the Ezra I think that was recognized right away you know, so part of that is that value proposition you know just just just thinking about what you know he always comes into play when you when you think value and you know you get this weird dichotomy with smaller craft distillers where stuffs coming out for higher prices but then in some cases people like God's its craft it's not kind of recognized yet I'm unless you want to support them. It's in some cases it's not really not really there yet. You know, other cases you have, you know, somebody like new riff who's killing it, you know, with a four year and you know, bottled in bond, you know, so here you go is a four years a seven year you know, you look pricing, I mean, do you put them on the same platform for I'm going to compare this to that, or do you say, Well, no, there's a different comparison here because the distillery size and you know, those kinds of things. So that's the questions you always have to, you know, kind of look at and it's only it comes down to just how much you like it, how good it tastes, but it also comes down to 51:00 How they're speaking with you. And I think Ryan, you made a good point, you know, for the enthusiast side because maybe some other people, the general public doesn't care, but you never want to be lied to, and you never want to feel like the world was pulled over your eyes, which, unfortunately, with the Elijah Craig age statement, that was how everybody felt, you know, and so I think, you know, lesson learned, avoid doing that, like think proactively to speak to that group so that you don't you don't lose that, you know, that faith in that community that's behind the distillery. 51:30 Haven't got it. Sorry. Oh, sorry, Nick. What's up riff bottle and bond cost. $55 or no? The bottle the bottle? 51:39 What is it Blake 4040. Yeah, 44 year, Lori. And I think I think a great value. I think it's a great product. Yeah, I guess this caps the secondary price of the six year bottle and bond. Right. 40. Well, now it's the old label though. They changed it. So now it's 52:00 You know, like discovering your phones in a way, right? So you gotta buy on the shelf anymore. Yeah, I want to throw another one out. 52:10 There. Oh, go ahead run. Well, I'll say here you go heaven Hill. I know you're going to do this within the next year, when you write one to raise hundred McKenna's prices, and you change the packaging, and you change the cork, so that you can justify a $20 increase, just say, we are going to change the cork and the label and we're going to raise about 20 bucks because we think it's undervalued. And I will say, Amen, I will go buy it still. 52:33 I think that's a good Brian. It's it though. Like anyone who's paying attention is somebody who cares. anyone's not paying attention doesn't care. So you got to speak to that group. Yep. Yep. And that was Brian, you kind of teed up the next question right there is is we now see an aspect with inside of heaven hill that they're kind of cannibalizing themselves, where they have products that have higher age statements and higher 53:00 was a perceived value and sometimes even higher proof settling for less money then this product that they're putting out so you know, you look at the, the Henry McKenna bottle and bond as you mentioned, you got Evan Williams you got GTS brown you've got GW Dan, you have all of these different products and mind you that is less the less something's changed and I don't know recently but they're they're bourbon not we didn't match up with a regular bourbon mash bill is one bourbon Nashville, like, nothing's changed. So it's the same product that's going into all these just different aging warehouses, locations, so on and so forth. So do you all see themselves as kind of like cannibalizing and like making themselves like, like, they're, they're fighting against themselves in the market with their own products? 53:46 You know, in a way, maybe I think fewer people are going to tie those things together. Then, you know, when you think of the mass market, I'm not sure a lot of people walk in and realize they're coming from the same place at the store. So 54:00 It's still a pretty small percentage that even acknowledges that. It's like, why do you have a CVS on, you know, two blocks away from each other. And it said, well, you're more likely to stop in at the CVS or Walgreens, if it's, you know, right next to you, as opposed to two miles away, it's still not that big of a deal. So if you go into a store, and it's like, all right, what's on the shelf, if you know they only had one product, you're less likely to grab that bottle when there's 100 products on the shelf. So they put eight to 10 out there, you're more likely to grab it. So I think I think the answer to your question Kenny, when I was out at a bourbon event at a different city, and I met some people that just started drinking bourbon six months ago they had no ideal that Eagle rare Buffalo Trace and all you know under that same Nashville were the same exact Nashville and they're like what you're kidding me. Like it's the same Nashville they have no idea that like, all these brands are the same magical, just different prices, different age, whatever. So they just 55:00 Like the modern the everyday consumer has no idea and you pointed them to the bourbon or Nashville breakdowns 55:10 cheat sheet Thank you. You go we give away posters that shit now. 55:16 Thanks for coming here's your match. Oh, yeah, but but I do want to give a shout out to Dave overboard one on one because I know he's he's he's been talking a lot in the chat here is always saying like wild turkey one to one it's still their prices and change so he could always go there. I saw $10 Yeah, comment on that $10 Right, exactly. So he's trying to put his deck in the ground and hoping with bourbon a choice. Yeah. Well, he's also hope with the Campari folks don't start taking a note out of heaven hills playbook here. But then the also kind of thing is, you know, when we look at this, and we look at it from the enthusiast point of view, you know, we are the bourbon enthusiasts. This is if you're listening to this podcast, who are a bourbon enthusiast, it's there's no way getting around it right. You are You are 56:00 The few people that really care, maybe not as much as us, but you care a lot, you care a lot of a niche of a niche. Exactly. And so you kind of look at it and you're like, well, if heaven Hill really wants to make money off the enthusiasm really care about them. This is what David at rubber one one says, maybe should sell single barrels at more than 90 more than 94 proof. Right? Do something more than than just what you can do it Eliza Craig and he's, I think he might be onto something. 56:26 Yes, they were in those single barrel pics, but but selling them at 94 proof. It's, it's a travesty, really. But you know. And so the last kind of thing I want to hit on with this as it's kind of running out this topic here is we have noticed inside of the press release this is this is almost like unheard of to be able to have a bourbon that's being launched, coming from a prestigious distillery inside of Kentucky and it says it's available in eight states and you start looking down and you start looking and there's one or there's there's one abbreviation you don't see. That's k 57:00 You do not see ky as one of the first states that are out there. Now, Ryan and I have a kind of a good inkling of why this might be. And I'll kind of let Ryan take it here. So Ryan, kind of kind of give your your thought and your process of why wouldn't you go and make Kentucky and available market on day one? 57:20 Because I know they'll sell it no matter what, whenever it gets here. So I gotta go spread to the masses and 57:28 get the new consumers, which I understand, you know, it's totally cool. But it's like Fred always talks about you can't forget the people that brought you to the dance. You know, it's like, Yeah, I don't know. I it's, it's frustrating, but, you know, that's totally Wow. But it's just great to see you know, okay, why not get something that the rest of us 57:54 in New York is on that list. So that means you three to six months after it's released. We'll see you next 58:00 Yeah. 58:02 It's like, you know, Florida all the fun releases are going to come after everyone's Instagram has been flooded with with pictures of these new releases non stop button. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, I mean, right now we were talking about this because he recently took a trip and it's kind of like, Kentucky is very, very small in the picture things. You know, we Yeah, yeah, I mean, saying that, you know, yes, there's there's 4 million plus barrels of whiskey aging and Kentucky. That's more than the population of Kentucky. Guess what? That's a that's about half the size of Dallas. Yeah, it's like there then you got these like Houston and LA and New York that are, you know, just even bigger. It's like, yeah, yeah. So even even when you look at per capita buying, which I'm sure is higher here, you're still not touching, not even close to the bigger markets. Yeah, because I think California and Texas obviously because every 59:00 The biggest population but, you know, I mean, they're just crushing Kentucky and far as you know, consuming power and booze. 59:09 Trying to change one bottle at a time. You know, that's very interesting, just kind of going back to these brands are realizing they don't need the enthusiast nearly as much as kind of as the initially Yeah, as we hope. You know what starts happening when this stuff stops hitting Kentucky as much because overall, Kentucky still gets the lion's share of a lot of the allocated bourbon. And to my knowledge, this is the first one that kind of gave the Kentucky snub. So 59:40 it'll be interesting to see what happens, you know if if that's kind of hurts the brand overall, or they just find a new market and never looked back. So it'll be interesting. 59:52 No, I think you're totally right. I think this is going to be it could be one of those pivotal moves we start seeing in regards to the market and how things 1:00:00 Shifting when somebody is going to launch a product where they're going to launch it and they're going to look at the target markets they're going to look at where do where do the most bourbon consumers live. Now granted Kentucky is there but Kentucky is also a large state Kentucky isn't the size of Houston right like Houston's a pretty big populace actually it's a much bigger populace than Kentucky is a state right? So yeah, that might be the that might be the the idea of like maybe that's where you go like that's where the money is. And not only that is there's this is this is not a game of you know, trying to target a particular kind of consumer like this is a game of people with disposable income that are buying Kentucky's a poor state. I mean, they're one of the you know, probably top 10 poorest states in the if not even higher than in the in the country. So I mean, there's not a lot of people with disposable incomes that can just drop money on expensive Barb's all the time, but we spend it on rep tickets and bourbon and that 1:01:00 Sorry. 1:01:03 But what was that the thinking though? Or? I mean, does something play into? I didn't because it is. I mean, it is really odd that it was a Kentucky only release. And and kind of coming back, you know, you think like that's the narrative that it was Kentucky only and we're going to start in Kentucky. So you know, was it because they wanted more momentum in other states first or, you know, was there a concern that it was going to be received or perceived really negatively? Because, you know, you took it away and then and then brought it back at at the price that's coming back at you know, you gotta wonder if there's more to it, then just, this is what's going to give them most momentum. As much as you know, was there a PR play that got banter back and forth about where do we start here? Because it seems like it's going to be everywhere. And it seems like wherever it is, it's new. It's talked about, it's probably going to do pretty well. 1:01:54 So it is really odd that it didn't start in Kentucky. I gotta admit that despite thinking it's a smart move 1:02:00 Not being in Kentucky is really, it makes me wonder how they came to that conclusion. Well, I mean, it could be like, Oh, well, it's been in your state for the past. How many years? Have 1:02:12 you been here about a year and a half ago? Like, let's go somewhere else? You know, it could be that you didn't care until we said we were going to pull it and then then it got popular. Yep. 1:02:24 Absolutely. So let's go ahead and let's let's kind of finish this one on a on a fun little touchy subject too, because why not? Right. So this was a question that kind of came in over Twitter and it was kind of in regards of secondary market pricing and retailers and how do you justify buying stuff and so Kurt Bella Lawsky sa

Dave was off to New Zealand when we recorded Episode 13. So Ryan and Karl took on three topics on our own. Dave will be back next week. We kick off with a discussion of social media moderation. In particular, why does one social media outlet (Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Pinterest, etc.) leave material up while another one takes it down? In addition, we touch on the spectrum from obviously fake to deep fake content. How much can AI help Facebook and others deal with content moderation? AND is this a free speech issue? And if so, does Facebook have the right to regulate our speech? Feedback welcome (form below). Speaking of Facebook, we moved to a discussion of Libra, FB's new cryptocurrency. With 1.7 billion users without bank accounts, FB is hoping to be the "best" way to exchange money. Can we trust Facebook with our money when we can't trust them with our data? There are many good things about the new FB currency model . . . but also some serious questions. Speaking of security . . . Ryan poses the question of whether it makes sense to have an MSSP (managed security service provider) that is not an MSP (managed service provider)? At what point is this just "outsourced IT?" Or perhaps we're all MSSPs. Or maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. :-)

Betting on Sports America 2019 is officially in the books and it turned out to be a first class event for sports betting fans in the United States. Today, Ryan Knuppel talks with the founder and CEO of SBC Gaming, Rasmus Sojmark, about the event from his perspective. This recording was just a few days after the event and the first podcast interview Rasmus did following #bosamerica -- this is one you won't want to miss. Show Notes Ryan Knuppel: 00:00 On this episode I get to sit down with CEO and founder of SBC Gaming, Rasmus Sojmark and we talk all about the betting on sports America 2019 conference. Don't miss it. Intro: 00:12 This is crazy.. Ryan Knuppel: 00:13 Everywhere you turn it's the same old sports, talk the same headlines, the same news and the same boring information. This podcast is here to change all of that. We bring you hot sports takes, winning sports betting strategy and picks, reliable gaming industry news and breaking interviews with some of the biggest names in sports business. My name is Ryan Knuppel welcome to the Knup Sports Show. Ryan Knuppel: 00:34 Hey what's up everybody, welcome to episode number 49 of the Knup Sports Show. My name is Ryan Knuppel, I'm your host here of this show thank you for joining me, I really appreciate it tuning in to this show. We have a very special show in store today. I just got back from probably my favorite conference of all time. The best conference I've ever been to, and it was the betting on sports America 2019 conference, that took place the Meadowlands, New Jersey. Ryan Knuppel: 00:59 I spent a week out there, brought my wife and we went to the event. Spent three or four days at the event and another three, four days in New York, Manhattan on a little vacation. Today the CEO and founder of SBC Gaming, the guy responsible for putting on this entire event, Rasmus Sojmark. He's with me, he joined me, he was kind enough to sit down with me and talk all about the event. I was going to talk about it myself. I was going to go through and just talk about my experience with the event. But I figured who better than to have on than the man himself, the man responsible for putting this on. Ryan Knuppel: 01:35 So many people enjoyed it. I talked to hundreds and hundreds of people at this event. I think there was almost a couple thousand at the event. But I talked to many people and they all had the same feedback, the same responses from these events. Just talking about how first class it was, and how well put on it was and they did everything at a very high level. I'm excited for you to listen to this, I'm excited for you to hear what Rasmus has to say. He's a great guy. SBC is a great team of people I got to meet and hang out with a lot of them there at this event this weekend. Ryan Knuppel: 02:07 Over the next month or two you are going to hear from me a lot about this event. A lot of things that I learned, a lot of people that I talked to. I'm going to connect with them on this show and we are going to talk about different things that they're into in this industry. Because the sports betting industry is really popping, really growing in the United States and I want to use this show as a platform to bring people on and really just tell their story, tell their side of what's going on in the sports betting industry, and who better to start with than Rasmus. Ryan Knuppel: 02:35 I'm excited, without further a due lets jump right into today's interview. All right. Today we have a special guest on this show. Today I'm joined by Rasmus Sojmark. Rasmus is the CEO and founder of SBC Gaming. Rasmus, you're with me today? Rasmus Sojmark: 02:49 I am Ryan. Thanks for having me man. Ryan Knuppel: 02:51 Absolutely. I'm so honored and privileged that you're joining me on the show here. We just all got back from your awesome new events, betting on sports America 2019, it was held at the Meadowlands expo and conference center in New Jersey. Man what an even that was. I did attend and had a good time, it was a pleasure meeting you. Man, how're you feeling after that big event? Rasmus Sojmark: 03:15 I think you just said it there man. No more for me to say well said, just recovered now. There was a lot of organizing the sport events, then you execute during the three, four days and just hope that everyone is enjoying the events. And I think we had some incredible feedback. The response was great. I think this is one of the best event we've done in a long time and that's very important when you have it as the first one in a new big market, that's the US. Rasmus Sojmark: 03:51 I think it went really well, and I mean there're several factors when you look into an event. First of all, you want to have a conference working well. People are there to learn something and be educated and hear what our latest news in the industry are. In the conference and the panels were pretty much outstanding. I think a lot of key information was discussed and also shared with the audience, and I think that's key. And I think we did that very well at least that's what I keep hearing from everyone that's been attending. Rasmus Sojmark: 04:25 They all were very positive about this part, so I think that was a hit and I think as well, I think everything on speaker did an incredible job and that can be a bit tough when you have almost 200 speakers on the program. It's hard to manage, you need to coordinate between all of them and that takes a lot of efforts. I think their participation, their engagement in the lead up to the event and also [inaudible 00:04:53] event was great. Rasmus Sojmark: 04:55 Just a quick personal thank you to all the speakers. I think you guys helped make this event a superb one. Thank you. Ryan just ask me a question if you want to talk. Ryan Knuppel: 05:09 Sure. Sure. I mean, I want to chime in on the speakers. Every speaker that I went to, every session, every track that I went into was absolutely amazing. The only complaint I would have is I didn't get to go to enough of them. I mean they were so many of them, which is a good complaint by the way. It's a good problem to have. Rasmus Sojmark: 05:26 Don't worry man. Listen, the good thing is we video all of it. Right? So what we need to do is of course, is we need to have load for all of the material, and then what we all do is release every single panel with video for [inaudible 00:05:38] for everyone that attended the event. Ryan Knuppel: 05:40 Perfect. Rasmus Sojmark: 05:40 So you can go back and you can have a look at the ones you missed on that day. But I agree, three conference rooms running at the same time can be difficult. Ryan Knuppel: 05:48 Too many choices I was so conflicted at times. I'm like, I want to go here and here and here. But it was awesome, it was a great time guys did a good job. Rasmus Sojmark: 05:59 At least it was fairly connective when in the venue as well. I mean, it wasn't too complicated to move to so many conference rooms. Because that is an issue when you say it like that. You want to go from one room to another, between sessions and you only have no more than five minutes, you need to be quick. Ryan Knuppel: 06:18 Sure. Sure. Let's talk about the venue for a second. I thought the venue was outstanding. I had actually never been to the Meadowlands area there in New Jersey. What drew you to that spot? And was that always your plan to be at the Meadowlands or what drew you to that venue? Rasmus Sojmark: 06:33 We did a lot of research initially. We were thinking about doing in New York in Manhattan, and they have the Javits one which we were looking at that. But it's quite big, and we thought okay maybe wait and just find one that is big but not as big and we had to look around. There's not a lot of venues in New York to be honest. We also took a look at New Jersey thinking that it could be smart to find a way to combine the two of them. I mean, New Jersey is where it's all happening at them moment, but of course people coming all for this also love to see a bit of Manhattan. Rasmus Sojmark: 07:05 So how can you say combine those two. We went to the area we're talking about here and they have quite a few good options. There was the Meadowlands race track, the was MetLife stadium the home of Giants and Jets. And we weren't having a look at the stadium as well. But could be a bit complicated which calls spending some times with what venues you can use. So we ended up saying Meadowlands seems to be a good choice. But a lot of hotels nearby make it very, very convenient for people staying. [inaudible 00:07:34] exit the hotel when you're there. Rasmus Sojmark: 07:37 It also gives us quite a bit of space like 51,000 square feet. Which means that we can create conference rooms and we create enough space for people to sit down and network talk and of course for the exhibitors and the sponsors to display their products in a nice setting as well. So it ended up being that choice but at the same within that choice is set, it's very important to mention that we could combine those two, Manhattan and New Jersey. Rasmus Sojmark: 08:00 When you are in Meadowlands area, you literally only have around 50 minutes drive to Manhattan you are straight up at Times Square. There can be a lot of traffic so you need to factor that in. And I think that was on of the things we were worried about that there could be enough traffic so when we were moving people from after the conference and exhibition, to the evening event in Manhattan there would be a bit of a drive. But I think all of that actually worked really well. I'm personally surprised and I think Meadowlands proved to be an excellent venue for us. Ryan Knuppel: 08:34 Yeah. I think it did. It seemed like the perfect balance between the Manhattan experience and then a little disconnect from that over in New Jersey and yeah. Let's shift over and talk about these ... you mentioned the after parties, the evening events. Man, myself I've never personally been to an SBC event so this was my first one. And let me say right out the front, you guys do it right. I mean your events, your party, your venues, the food, the drinks, just the whole vibe of the parties was absolutely amazing. Ryan Knuppel: 09:10 Is it always like that or was this one different because it was a little more buzz around the United States and some of those places you picked were just amazing. I mean, talk to me a little bit about the parties, and what you thought the vibe of those was. Rasmus Sojmark: 09:23 I think to be honest, it's a recurrence event. We tend to look at what creates a holistic, like a complete delegate experience. I mean, ultimate big events and we want it to be a big event, I mean, not too big just an amount of people so attending and of course we look to grow that next year. I think it's important to just see what can you do to shine people together. Not everyone wants to go to the evening events, and they create their own dinners and their own small gatherings for the clients and customers and soon to be customers et cetera. Rasmus Sojmark: 10:00 So I think when we look at the evening we sort of try to think okay, what can we put together here that people want to attend. We keep people together, not just during the day time but also the evening. Because you're right when you were saying for this one, I mean it wasn't different from one of our events, but I think this one was just so important to keep people together. Rasmus Sojmark: 10:20 You have a whole new market opening up, so much opportunity so why not go that extra mile to make sure that we busy, very busy during the day. And we know that from experience, because we put on three conference rooms, 200 speakers, we have a Ryan running around want to attend all the sections. And if you're doing that, you can't network, you can't talk to people, you can't do business, you can't go and meet the services and see the products and stuff. Really that can be much of an issue because of course I need to create some action for everyone there. Because also response from exhibitors is a big part of supporting the event. Rasmus Sojmark: 10:58 What we then try and do is to make sure that the ones you didn't meet during the daytime, you'll certainly have a chance to meet during the evening when we have free evening events going on during this event. And I think that is just the key here. That by going in and creating that environment for you to know that, oh yeah, I'll sit in the conference, I'll suck up all this information in all these sessions and take that back, but also know that I will have time because SBC organized this thing in the evening where there will be full house. Rasmus Sojmark: 11:31 And we had 750 people, that's a 40, 40 cap. And that was a pre registration. Hey, that was before the main conference and exhibitions part. That was unheard of. I was like Ryan to be honest, I was thinking, okay man there's maybe have 300, 400 people there. Ryan Knuppel: 11:47 Yeah. Rasmus Sojmark: 11:48 The company will do well. Because truth to be told, the venues we picked weren't the cheapest ones. We want to create some nice really surroundings when you're there like people want to come to a great event. So the 40, 40 cap on a Tuesday, that's NBA players, you had NHL and this is a sports event people of sports, they want to watch the sports. How do you combine it so Ryan doesn't run off to go to another sports bar to watch this. But everyone else is at another bar, networking the event so we combine the two taking the best Jay-Z sports bar. I think everyone just wanted to come and see the and then realized shit sorry my language ... there's all the networking here this is a great setting. Rasmus Sojmark: 12:29 And from there on we took the other direction on Wednesday. We actually brought everyone to the Meadowlands race track and they have a very nice roof top bar, a bit well independent but we also booked the downstairs one in case it was bad weather we could have taken everyone one down to the lounge. And also people got to see the first and real retail sports in New Jersey. Ryan Knuppel: 12:52 Right. Rasmus Sojmark: 12:52 The history ride you saw the [inaudible 00:12:54], amazing looking sports book in the Meadowlands the racing entertainment setting there at the race track. I think that was another element added into the whole experience here. And the weather was great so people just loved that like being on the roof top back drop was Manhattan, you had the MetLife stadium there you could see, you see the race track, there was drinks, there was barbecue and people continued doing their business that they didn't finish doing that very day in the daytime. Rasmus Sojmark: 13:25 On the first day of course, to add another element into making it really a key evening for people, we had the hall of fame next to [inaudible 00:13:32] network the Sky room In Manhattan. Now I'll say to you Ryan I mean, I went to New York a couple of times, seven hours, pouring down with rain, walking around and that was the day we chose to view the roof top bars in all of New York, just to find the best venue [inaudible 00:13:50]. And that was difficult when it's raining. The good thing there was Sky room had this thing that you close off the roof of it, so in case it was raining you still have that feel of the roof top fun and it was raining that day. Ryan Knuppel: 14:00 Right. Rasmus Sojmark: 14:01 Really had it open so that was a good choice. And at the same time you had like Dennis Drazin, Art Manteris, and Chris Christie coming for the hall of fame. Personally this is why I love these men, I had the good opportunity here to be the one that presented the hall of fame award for former Governor Chris Christie. Rasmus Sojmark: 14:22 That was a proud moment, I mean he's an interesting man for the sports industry. Being up there getting that choice. That's a lot that comes with sometimes organizing an event. Normally, I would have someone else doing it like one of our sponsors or something like that, but on this case it was also a new event it was nice first to see or to show ourselves. People maybe understood it a little bit, who's behind this event. When you come back and realize it was a successful event so yeah. All things I think it was great for the combination there with daytime and strong evening events. Ryan Knuppel: 15:01 I agree and there's nothing much else I can say there. You said it all, I was going to repeat much of what you said about the venues. Absolutely gorgeous venues with some great views. Great people, great food, I mean all around just a great experience. Just once again thank you for putting that on and thank you for I mean, SBC definitely didn't skimp out on those events. They treated people well. And that was the other thing your stuff and everybody around the event was very accommodating to everyone and just super engaging with people which is always good to hear. Ryan Knuppel: 15:34 Overall great event. Anything else about this event you wanted to talk about here or are you won out already? Rasmus Sojmark: 15:42 No I can continue. What I think you just mentioned. One thing of course is very important is you have a good team. I think we actually had 25 staff and colleagues over there so we wanted to make sure we had a very strong understanding of the events we do and we could execute on them. Obviously we had good support from local staff as well that we brought in. And I think they did a very good job so of course a big thank you to my team as well. It's almost impossible organizing all these elements takes a lot of effort. Rasmus Sojmark: 16:16 And I think maybe lucky if you had [inaudible 00:16:18], it wasn't that easy but we did a lot of pre planning, we did a lot of execution of tasks between team members and they were in charge of this and that. And I think all in all it went well. Because me Ryan as well coming to New Jersey and Manhattan to present an event, it's just not me working and making sure the event works. I also need to talk to you, build my network and make sure people get to know us better, because we need to put a face to the name for a lot of people. Rasmus Sojmark: 16:47 There was a lot of people that couldn't execute on their work so it was very good work for the staff here where others they were running around trying to network and talk and make sure people knew who the actual SBC people were for future events. I would say as well next to that there were some really good highlights on the conference side. I mean we had the New Jersey Governor, Phil Murphy [inaudible 00:17:08] that was packed. You had the national media there, you probably had 400 people in there. I think there were sitting about 300 if you were standing in the back. He was very direct and saying New Jersey was to overtake Nevada and you have to come. That was quite interesting and all that means there will be more interesting events in New Jersey. Rasmus Sojmark: 17:31 Added to this, I think we had hall of fame Morten Andersen NFL hall of fame and the most kept player in the NFL. Giving a very cool and funny key note on the second there. But first I think there was some good [inaudible 00:17:44] there on stage. Walking around that floor I actually set him on [inaudible 00:17:49] key note. You have guy like [inaudible 00:17:52]. I mean patriot. So me being a patriot's fun I meet a three time super bowl winner there shaking my hand and taking pictures. Rasmus Sojmark: 18:02 That's cool and he was great so Brian Westbrook, the former Eagles running back. Ryan Howard there from the Phillies. They were doing a talk on the states as well which had received very good feedback. Then you also heard from the sportsmen inside [inaudible 00:18:17] with Christian Steward and John Katovich that could pen well on the CEO panel which I went into and it was packed. Rasmus Sojmark: 18:25 Loved the discussions between those guys and see what they had to say. There were some interesting questions from the audience as well. I think New Jersey is the land of opportunity of course because that was the follow up from what Phil Marcus said. You have David Rebuck the former senator Lesniak, and even pressing up the hardrock discussing New Jersey as an all. I think that was a really good panel. You had sponsorship panel with MGM Nelson's board and then Shell and Texas Rangers, very good panel as well. Rasmus Sojmark: 18:51 And then I think to finish it off, the very last panel to the event. Normally you and I would be out drinking a beer, but then you went into the room and it was packed. Probably because you had good people there addressing the media landscape and how that would deal with the sports betting in the US. And you had John from thescore, Patrick from the action network [inaudible 00:19:11], David Preslek from NBC. And I think those are all good names so I think that helps when you attract people in because they want to settle in. Rasmus Sojmark: 19:18 But also it's very interesting of course because the media in the US seems to be very embracing towards the sports betting. And know that there's massive opportunity here but how does this work? I think all of this just came together somehow actually with events. I think those are actually the key highlights next to of course all of the experiences you and I had at the evening events and the rest. Yeah. Ryan Knuppel: 19:39 Yeah. It really did. Man, I could talk about this all day long. I mean, there's so much that happened at this event that we can touch base on. But I know for the sake of time I want to let you go and I want to keep moving on here. What's next for SBC both in the United State and outside of the United States? What are the other events do you guys have planned and what can we look forward to because I know a lot of people listen to this, a lot of people in the industry listen to this podcast and I've been advocating some of your events. What can I be looking forward to over the next few months or year or years? Rasmus Sojmark: 20:12 Yeah I mean. I think we're looking at betting sports America at 2020 would be, all this would be on the 28th to 30 of April. For now, I think we set on the Meadowlands exposition center again. Mark your dates your calendars for the [inaudible 00:20:32] next year. And I think we we're trying to do with this is of course take back all the feedback we receive and try and work out how can we improve on this. How do we do like a year after follow-up to discuss the key thing that was addressed and how it's been compressed and hopefully [inaudible 00:20:48]. Rasmus Sojmark: 20:48 What we also want to do is try and work harder. I think we had a good representation from the sports industry [inaudible 00:20:54]. But we want to bring more of them in. There was also the NFL draft fell on the same dates I think that might be the case next year. We definitely take this back and then we'll deliver really stronger next year. And we want to grow it a bit not too big but of course you want to do more and get some more people into the commercial side. Rasmus Sojmark: 21:16 I think the commercial side will be more and more important as the industry grows. Because you need to look at the right product, the right opportunities, the right third party products. You need to create the ultimate and user experience. Also the side of integrity compliance and all these things, you need to make sure that the US industry is becoming a very solid and well executed part of the interest into the sports betting side. Rasmus Sojmark: 21:47 Because there's a lot of mistakes and issues that we learn from setting open markets so try and address these, get the right products, right people, speak to the right stake holders and make sure that is all there next year. Which I think it was this year, but certainly work hard to make it even better next year. That's the US events and of course for everyone that feels they are still hungry for sports betting information, I would like to say that our biggest event the one we've been running for several years, is taking place in London on the 17th to 20th of September actually at [inaudible 00:22:20] London which is one of the big conference centers. Rasmus Sojmark: 22:24 Normally there, we have around three and a half thousand senior expected attendance and we presenting no less Ryan this time the 300 speakers. It's also good exhibition part with relevant sports betting products we're talking about 140ish exhibitors. Absolutely there's so much information there and added to the evening events. For the ones that love a great networking event in the evening and also at the same time as we get in [inaudible 00:22:53] sports American here. Rasmus Sojmark: 22:55 You can get a bit of the local feel and experience the view of UK because we've booked the natural history museum which is an outstanding venue. We've booked that for one of the evenings. There'll be another European hall of fame. Those evening events will give you the same feel of the same opportunities to network and do business in the evening. Yeah. Anyone that feels from say the US side that can make the trips, you absolutely make the trip and we already have someone to speak from the US side of course represented. Rasmus Sojmark: 23:26 We talking about drafting, [inaudible 00:23:28] to promote to attend some of the panels which we usually do. I think certainly I will recommend this for the US audience because there is a lot of learning to do as well. There's a lot of different things discussed that might be a bit still ahead of what the US market is. But those are important learnings to take back. This event is very relevant and I will highly recommend anyone interested can always touch base with me. Ryan Knuppel: 23:51 Sounds like a good excuse to hit the London. Rasmus Sojmark: 23:53 Yeah. Absolutely man. Definitely you're welcome my friend. Absolutely. Ryan Knuppel: 23:57 Sounds great. Well, I appreciate you joining me Rasmus. I absolutely do I know you're a busy man and you're won out, we both are. My voice is actually a little scratchy still. Man I was just all that talking and loud events. I mean it was a great event. I appreciate you joining me. Any last words for the audience before we go here? Rasmus Sojmark: 24:16 Well, I think it's been a great week. Last week of course in New Jersey and New York and I think I'm very pleased to see that we got so great feedback. Even one of my good friends the president of online gaming called Churchill Downs, who's also a good US company, said it was the best event he ever attended. I think we keep getting this kind of feedback, so I'll leave you to just talk in a bit more. And then from this event and we will talk next year and I think yourself and people I met last week have been incredibly supportive. So Ryan thanks to you and all my friends and happy to invite you all here as my guest if you can make it in September and thank you for giving me the opportunity [crosstalk 00:25:03]. Ryan Knuppel: 25:07 Absolutely. All right. Nothing much else I can say besides great event. I invite everyone whose listening to this, make sure you put in on your calendar. You said April 28th to 30th of next year 2020. I'll be there again. That's the US one and then September 17th through 20th in London. Rasmus Sojmark: 25:24 Definitely man. Ryan Knuppel: 25:25 Awesome. All right Rasmus well you get some rest, you get back on your feet now that you're back home and I certainly appreciate you joining me on this show. And if there's anything I can ever do for you, you don't hesitate to reach out to me. Rasmus Sojmark: 25:38 Like wise my friend. And appreciate the time and the opportunity here yeah. Ryan Knuppel: 25:42 All right. You take care and have a great day. Rasmus Sojmark: 25:43 Take care. Speaker 2: 25:44 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Knup Sports Show. If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider subscribing to our iTunes channel today. Plus visit us at Knupsports.com for more picks, previews, strategy and news. That's KNUPSports.com.  

Ryan has been kicked off of youtube again and is concerned that it could be permanent. So Ryan will be focusing on making a new website to include all of the videos that have been removed from youtube including the uncensored versions. Dan is back on the show and we play everyones favorite game "Fake Or Florida!". This is where I read a ridiculous new head line and you have to guess if its fake news or a real news from Florida. Lastly we discuss the boxing match that is happening may 25th and watch a little bit of the last fight. 

Are Mint Juleps the problem child of bourbon cocktails? We examine the Mint Julep and it’s impact on history and give our novice commentary on horse racing. We then look at the crazy hoarding of higher aged MGP stocks because there are now groups scouring the country to find distilleries with this coveted whiskey. Is there a scary future of higher priced bourbons (over $100) that don’t carry an age statement? Lastly, we give our initial thoughts on the new Wild Turkey “Cornerstone” release. Show Partners: Batch 016 was project that took over a year. Barrell Craft Spirits selected 9 to 15 year old barrels with similar profiles from different distilleries. It’s deeply concentrated, but not too oaky and finishes with a toasted orange notes. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Oldest Whiskey: http://www.lawhiskeysociety.com/pages/Worlds-Oldest-Whiskey Yelp Recommendations: https://www.yelp.com/collection/Si779eiZUmjGomZP2pZLTg This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the word smooth. 200th Episode of Bourbon Pursuit Kentucky Derby Post Mortem. Thoughts on the race? Bourbon was out in full force with Brown Forman having a spotlight. Are mint juleps a timeless classic or is it ruining good bourbon? How many brands can you name that have a horse on the label? MGP prices sky rocketing. When did this phenomenon begin? KY Owl Confiscated. Thoughts on the future with high price no age statement bourbon? Wild Turkey "Cornerstone" releasing their limited edition rye. http://whiskyadvocate.com/wild-turkey-masters-keep-cornerstone-rye-last-drop-glenrothes-whisky-whiskey/ 0:00 We should see I'm a accountants and lawyers. We can go on the show. Oh, wait. 0:07 No more no more lung capacity. Yeah. 0:21 Hey, everyone, and welcome to Episode 200. of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kinney. And did you just hear what I said? It was Episode 200. This is monumental. It's huge. Now I'm not going to talk about it because we talked a lot about it in the show, or maybe just a little bit. I don't know. We're kind of proud of ourselves here. But thank you so much for joining us and being a part of this monumental occasion. And it's because of you our listeners why this has been so successful. So keep tuning in, and we're going to keep bringing you good original bourbon content. Now on with a little bit of news, Adam hearse of the LA whiskey society has uncovered the world's oldest whiskey 1:00 It's a 12 year old Pennsylvania by distilled in 1847. It's been passed down through generations of family as well as estate sales until it ended up in the hands of someone asking more about its origin. The link to the website in our show notes goes through intensive detail of the label glass seal court condition, and even guesses what the whiskey is comprised of, because back then, there was no notion of Oh, hey, what's your mash bill? And really, also what is the importance of discovering this ancient artifact, and I guess I say agent and relatively new terms here, but having a bottle from pre Civil War era is a window into the age of whiskey history that at this point, only documentation is meant around. So other than that, you know, there hasn't been much else. And now historians have reviewed the advertisements below sales and other records, and we now have a legitimate bottle of whiskey from over 160 years ago. 2:00 Read the in depth analysis from the link in our show notes. Are you coming to the bourbon trail and happen to be staying in Louisville, Kentucky? Well, Ryan and I, we get asked all sorts of questions all the time of Where should we go? Where should we get a drink? Well, we went ahead and started creating a collection and we put it on Yelp. And you can go and get that in our show notes. It's loaded with casual and fine dining choices, dessert spots, as well as our favorite places to grab a cocktail or a glass of bourbon at one of our local watering holes around town. Now with that, let's hear from our good friend Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 2:40 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from Bell craft spirits. batch 16 was a project that took over a year, we selected nine to 15 year old barrels with similar profiles from different distilleries. It's deeply concentrated, but not too okie and finishes with a toasted orange note. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. 2:58 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is a 3:00 The char, I stood in the middle of a liquor store aisle. Consumer asked the retailer, what was the most smooth bourbon on the shelf? Doubt. The retail attendant is just someone who's doing his job. He meant well, and he picked out five or six Bourbons that he thought were smooth. And he did it based on proof. They were all 80 or 90 proof when reality the Bourbons that he picked, were actually a little hot for their proofs. So he completely eliminated things like four roses single barrel, which is 100 proof, or knob Creek, which is 100 proof or Booker's, which you know, gets up there in the hundred and 20 proof range, completely ignored the mall, despite them being very smooth. And we see smooth being used and all sorts of marketing. We're talking about going back to the earliest forms of whiskey marketing and 4:00 You'll find the words smooth. Well, what does that mean? What does smooth actually mean? In a sense, it's meant to be a word that kind of covers the word good. 4:17 But in reality smooth really does have a true definition within the industry, as I recall many people saying, but most notably, Jim Rutledge, talked about smoothness being about how does it feel on the palate, and how does it burn if it burns at any point in a major way, and it is not smooth for you. So from the moment that it hits your palate, to the all the way down to the belly, if it's burning at any point in that process, then it is not smooth for you. But just like taste is very subjective. What tastes good to me may not taste good to you. And so what a smooth for me a grizzled and veteran whiskey drinker may not 5:00 be smooth for someone who's just getting in the game. So there's really no right answer for what is smooth. I'll tell you what isn't smooth. Vodka. Vodka sucks. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for about the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram, just like drew Scott did on May 4. He's the one who came up with the idea for what the term smooth means. Well, actually, he said, to stop using the term smooth when describing whiskey, I decided to get a little bit of a definition instead. But hey, if you've got an idea send it to me that's at Fred manic again that's add Fred manic and thank you drew for that wonderful idea. Until next week. Cheers. 5:47 This is the 200th episode of bourbon pursuit. Welcome back, everybody. We're worth the 32nd recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable. I'm glad I haven't gotten my my numbers mixed up in my head yet because we are really anticipating 6:00 This day it's kind of a huge milestone for us. So Ryan congratulations. Like an Adrian Adrian like we did at home it should be like running up the stairs rocky style. I know we need like, you know the Evan Williams bottle Red Label with the 200 like, wrapped around it we need that, you know, wrapped around this episode. Yeah, it's amazing. I can't believe gosh, how, how is that possible that we've done 200 episodes. That's amazing, and a lot of cool stuff we've done over the past few years. So congrats to you. Oh, it's it's to all of us into the whole Community Roundtable here as well. You know, these guys have been a very big part of making this show successful as well. You know, these these community roundtables are one of the most downloaded episodes that we have. I think it's just people love it when you pitch about bourbon and they love to hear the banter of what goes on. So with that I'm actually celebrating since I don't have like an Evan Williams to at the end. 7:00 Diversity I figured I'd grab like 100 McKenna bottle and bond and hundred proof and I got a pursuit series of 1400 per hundred proof. Mix them together and it guess it's 200 7:15 How long do you think about doing that before? I bought a few hours early, I was like, What can I do to celebrate? Because I saw Blake's post. He said, What are you drinking that to celebrate? And I said, I have no idea. I guess I'll just grab 200 proof Bourbons and mix them together. That's about as close as I can think it was something ridiculous. Yeah. Well, could you get to a 200 year old bourbon like what's in your stash? You could grab get three final reserves or something? Yeah. 7:39 How close could you get in a glass with a Nick? I thought tonight's round table we're actually going to turn it around in we're all going to interview you and Ryan about the highlights of your last 200 episodes. I like him your favorite moments. 7:55 I think people get bored pretty quickly. Yeah. not that exciting. All in all, we 8:00 Don't care all that. 8:02 gotta remember the premise of this show was never about us. It's where the dumb ass is that are the ones that asked all the questions. So that's episode number 204. Yes. And I'm like, oh no. 8:16 So with that, let's go ahead and let's go around the table as usual and introduce everybody Blake's already chimed in. So Blake I'll let you go first. Yes, I am Blake from bourbon or calm and so box calm can find me at bourbon or calm Bo you are be in our or all the social medias that correspond with that, as well as CEO box calm that's s e l EA ch s and I'm drinking one of my current favorite bottles of steel box. It's a Jay Henry and sons. It's their five year five year bourbon that's finished in cognac barrel. So really good stuff. Check it out. 8:54 Awesome, good deal, and a face that we haven't seen in a while Nick from breaking bread. 9:00 Hey man How you been catching up on sleep finally guys but glad to be back I tried to make the last two and kind of last man is like Jordan I'm sorry I'm I am not going to be home in time for this so can you jump on and he was always excited to jump on so he's been doing a bunch of them here lately but anyways, I'm Nick from breaking bourbon com check us out online breaking bourbon calm obviously and all the social media is all at breaking bourbon. I will kind of kind of reminiscing a little bit. I remember us being guests on bourbon pursuit years ago, I can't remember the episode number. But it was in the first you know, series run of them as before we were doing video so it was all audio. Eric and I were over at his house. You know, Jordan was at his house. Kenny and Ryan we couldn't see you guys. I'm not sure where you were exactly. But remember, we were talking about the bourbon storage experiment and kind of excited because we have been I've been listened to you guys from the beginning, you know from your first episode forward, and it was the first you know 10:00 podcast and the first time we do anything like that so just kind of thinking back about that now I was two years ago three years ago I can't remember at this point but yeah kind of you know fun exciting run here and excited to see where it goes from here. That was definitely one of my highlight episode you know with you guys 10:20 feel bad thanks a lot jerk 10:23 to say that 10:26 three bottles in the mail for 10:28 Yeah, I mean that's that's one of the big things and the great things about what we've what we've really done here in the roundtable is you know, it all actually all started off at each one of you had your own sort of singular episode before we even decided like hey, let's get on and do you know kind of coming on this together. So it was it was good with that. So if anybody really wants to see how bad our interview skills were in the first like 50 episodes then you can go Yeah, if you think they're bad now just 10:56 actually listened on a little bit of a roundtable number one 11:00 Last night or yesterday, whenever you sent it out Yeah, I was like, right on the first one. Yeah, it was five kids How the hell do 11:10 I do that? 11:14 But it's one of those ones where it's like had good personality. Yeah. 11:19 Exactly. Everybody's on their iPhone had that actual mix or filters or where we're at now so yeah, they were all vintage and it turns out they were auditions for this. Exactly. 11:32 It's been a good journey, that's for sure. So Brian, I'll let you go ahead. Yeah, sure everyone I'm I'm Brian with sippin corn. You can find me on the social medias si p p n co Rn, and citizen corner calm and bourbon justice calm. So check that out. book available on Amazon and through Potomac and on the website bourbon, justice, calm. I was also thinking back to the early time that I was 12:00 On the show to begin with, but that was replaced last night when I met a bunch of guys for a wild turkey tasting and practically everyone there had something to say about the urban Community Roundtable and it that's when it really struck me how we're able to to connect with so many different people from so many different walks of life and in Kenny and Ryan you guys have done great on this. I mean it's just the the reach that you guys have had. And the popularity of it is just fantastic. So congratulations on 232 round tables. Thank you sorry it's all good are good legal advice. 12:42 navigate the legal waters. That's right. For sure. I feel like I'm doing my own little barrel bourbon blend over here like mixing this the Kentucky and Tennessee stuff. It's actually pretty good mix of these these two together. Are you really raising them together? I really did. I mixed them together. I wasn't just joking. Like what you're gonna get 13:00 Yeah, follow through with my promise. 13:04 But personally series There you go. And the other thing is, you know, Fred couldn't be here tonight he said that he had a pretty wild Derby, you know going to parties and he's just finally get to the point where he was at home and his five year old son said, Dad when we gonna hang out again? And I said, Yeah, you need to spend time with your family. That's totally fine. So we're going to be saying spread on this one, but that's okay. And you know, 13:27 speaking of that with the derby, let's have a little bit of a post mortem because let's talk a little bit of thoughts on the race I know we got we got three guys here from Kentucky to that think they're from Kentucky. So let's try to try to get an idea of you know, what's your all's thoughts were just in the race in general because it was kind of a wild finish. 13:48 Yeah, first, I'd like to clarify, I don't think I'm from Kentucky. 13:53 Or from Florida, or no, um, I mean, my thoughts on the race for it's kind of kind of messed up. When you 14:00 When you look at the I go back to the NCAA Tournament because that's sports actually care about in who was it Virginia against? A virgin gets Auburn. It's like was it? Was it a foul at the gate? You know, the last shot of game by the book? Yeah, probably was a foul. Do you make that call at that time? I don't know. You know, I would probably say no. So I was not for the call. I thought, you know, there's probably a lot of other places that could have been called or it just kind of gets overlooked. But I'm not a huge horse racing fan. So it's kind of hard for me to weigh in with any kind of credibility. All I know is I watch the race. I walked outside and started cooking more and my wife came outside said, Oh, yeah, they're actually recalling it around Africa what she used but yeah, so Oh, no, I'd say I would rather just see the horses run and you know, if there's a little bit of bumping, 14:54 so be it but yeah, that sounds like a lot like your Barbara radians. That's a Floridians opinion. 15:01 Not a good party unless there's a little bit of bumping 15:05 no no bumping and grind I don't see nothing wrong with a little 15:11 Joe to see albums getting ready to come on or something. Yeah, yeah. 15:15 I gotta kinda agree with that you know, I honestly we watched the race and we had people over and before they even made that call we were doing something else and kind of lost track of it was until the next day that that became apparent and kind of went back and looked at it and you know, it is tough call you know, at the end of the day, I mean there are animals out there running in a circle you know what a little bit in front of another animal the room I guess you know, but it seemed it seemed really surprising it kind of shocking that that they did make that call. Well, it's definitely shocking its first time it's ever happened in the in the derby that the winner lost. And I'm no Stewart all all of those disclaimers, but I'll disagree with you guys just to have a different opinion. 16:00 The the people who I do know who are in the horse business were just looking at on how dangerous that really that move really was. And it's not just the animal moving over into the lane it's it's the jockey being reckless and going for that spot. Hell you know whatever whatever happens be damned he's gonna go for that spot and if they would have clipped apparently if they would have clipped hooves which was really close to happening you would have had two horses that were shot on the track and if if that's if that happened in the in the derby they had to pull out the blue tarp and kill some horses that's that just be devastating. So I think they have to be careful like this and if that's the if that's the risk, and you got to call them like that. Yeah, is that a real thing? Like they pull up the blue tarp and oh, yeah, they put a horse down. Well, they go on the track. Yeah. 16:57 haul out an ambulance kind of cover over then yeah. 17:00 euthanize them if it's so bad that they can't don't think it's going to they can save them. So yeah, you gotta think these these horses are I think I said this last night Kenny, I mean these horses are you know thousand plus on these really frail skinny legs and you know it's kind of like targeting within you know in college football if you get targeted with the helmet to helmet you get ejected you know it's it sucks because yes it is like you know part of the game you're hitting but at the same time you're trying to protect these animals and they say it's animals but they're very highly trained animals that this is all they do and so the jockey nude is done and and they have to do it to protect these animals and so it while it does suck, it is the right call and yeah, that's what needs to be because they were they fell on it. They fall in the Jackie was definitely behind it more or less or was that the horse that just moved out a position that the jockey tried to 18:00 say that the horse got scared by the other one. I'm like, well, that happens. every race you know, this is not another new and so you know it he can control that animal in that situation so but I'm not a jockey and I don't ride but I do think they would have made that call No, no, no question in any regular rates and so I'm glad that they did it on such a big stage but it did piss a lot of people off because that was the favorite and a lot of money was on on that horse. Yeah, let's just make sure we reaffirm that none of us are like bloodstock like we have skin in the game. We actually have no idea. We're just we're just commenting to comment. So yeah, I haven't given less credibility in horse racing than I do environment. So 18:47 take for what that's worth. So with that, we'll we'll switch it up and talk about some bourbon a little bit because, you know, bourbon was out in full force at the derby for anybody that wasn't paying attention. Brown Forman really has their time in 19:00 The spotlight when it comes to a Woodford Reserve and old forester there during oaks and Derby, and there are a lot of mint juleps that are sold there during that day. Now, one thing is that I enjoy a mint julep during the season. I think it's just like a classic thing. I don't know why I just kind of got hooked on him a little bit. I even had a mint julep recipe I put out there. However, there's a lot of people that are kind of the hardcore bourbon people that are saying that you bastardized good bourbon. You know, you're gonna make a mint julep. Take all the other crap out there and just give me the bourbon. So what do you guys think? Do you look at it as a kind of like a timeless classic? Or is it something that you know, maybe a bourbon nerd should probably just quit drinking a mint julep? You gotta have a look at the track. It's like just it's it's just they go hand in hand. I mean, it's it's a tradition it's in the old forester actually. It's pretty good. Pre mix Mint Julep I had their in their dangerously like sneaky strong, I had several and I ran into Kenny and I was like, I 20:00 Two or three not and then the next day I like woke up in my track outfit on the couch and so I was like 20:07 like what's in these things you know? Or did 20:10 it like the outfit you went to the tracking or like, like 20:15 like short shorts on 20:20 I was at first actually I appreciate the clarification on my running track outside things got real crazy if you got into a whole new Oh yeah, my my my spikes and 20:33 bad suit and whenever but now there you gotta do what you love. I love ninja loves candy makes one of the best ninja lips. I mean, they're hard to drink all the time but at the track Kentucky Derby it's like it's quintessential Derby stuff. So it just a quick little history because I was sitting there googling it at the the Mitchell was actually an associated with the Kentucky Derby since 1938. And even before then, it's been 21:00 documented that it was actually literature's earliest 1784 that it was for curing sickness of the stomach. So, amen. There we go. I guess. 21:12 It's, we don't have any medical people here on the show so nobody can really comment about that one, but there is there is 21:21 the Holiday Inn Express. How's that different from anything else can 21:26 you're right? We're pretending we're stewards, you know? 21:33 Yeah. 21:35 So, anybody else have any kind of comments on that? Like, is it is it is it a bastardization of bourbon or is it still have its rightful place in in history? Mostly I'm I'm a big fan of mint julep side, I tend to drink old fashions and mint juleps when it comes to mixed bourbon drinks. Not too too often, but I will say over time, probably more juleps than old fashions now. It's great in the summer. I kind of got some 22:00 I could go into the store to get meant so started growing some in the yard, it grows like a weed, it grows really well. 22:08 It stays really well in the fridge once I once I pull it, you know, 22:12 so it's I just think it's a fantastic easy drink that you know, people always tend to really like, not usually as strong as I make them. So I have to remember that, you know, 22:22 with other people kind of let them know to let it simmer for a little while and then pick up some of the ice to kind of water it down. But yeah, I think it's a fun, great summer drink. Nothing wrong with mixing bourbon if that's what you want to do. So I feel like somebody needs to take the opposite position. 22:40 is a terrible idea. 22:44 I'm not that far, but what does get me a little bit every year is the amount of I don't know if everybody else gets them, but like the text of like, hey, they're making 20 $500 Mint Julep TV. Man. I wish you could do something like that. I'm like, okay, like it's for charity. 23:00 Get it I'm completely okay with that side but they're just taking Woodford Reserve is just regular Mint Julep in a fancy cup but now it's like glacier water and that was one year one year they did glacier water this year I believe they did like a honey simple syrup mint. And basically it was a barrel aged simple syrup that was done like for a year or something like that. But now I don't pin pick juice or pig men from the infield or something. I don't know. But that was It never ceases to amaze me. I mean, it's great publicity for Woodford but why they're the ones where they really get credit for the Kentucky Derby because they pay for it. Yeah, I guess that's true. They got them brown Forman pockets but 23:48 no so I'm a once a year mental kind of guy. 23:52 364 days a year if you asked me what I would like mint julep is never in the top 10 23:59 but 24:00 You know, it's hot It's April or May what tables 24:07 you should really weigh in on the last week so I'm kind of running together at this point but no, you know, it's warm outside. It's like okay, it's it's there's a lot of ice in there and you know, nobody wants to just sit around drinking bourbon neat when it's 85 degrees out so for that I let it slide any other day of the week or any other day of the year. I'm not for Mitchell. Well, and I think to it has a place as if you're going to be day drinking because you're going to the track all damn day. That's that's your starter drink. That's your morning drink you just like you don't necessarily want bourbon need if it's 90 degrees out. Always want to start off with a barrel proof bourbon neat. So warm up to it start with a couple of juleps that helps set a base and you're good for the day. And then you can wake up in your track outfit. 24:56 Next thing you know you're in valore 25:00 You're on the floor. Yep. So the other thing that we kind of see with with bourbon and horses and Brian saw a little bit before we started so hopefully he's been he's been trying to think of this beforehand but I kind of want to put a question and it actually kind of test your knowledge. How many brands can you name that have a horse on the label? 25:20 Go ahead and start naming them off. So we got blank on the label or just on like, bourbon and 25:27 Don ID bullet at one point had thoroughbred which had a horse on it for roses and Secretariat on it. 25:38 Good. See, who else do we have? Don't forget a gifted horse. gifted horse that bad. Got Rock Hill farms Rock Hill Farm. 25:49 We met cow email you can hook pain hooks a new one that's kind of all their different brains have it? Think a smooth Ambler 26:00 But the 10 or 26:03 most any of the old scouts I think 26:06 yeah yeah 26:10 and that's it sure there's a horse on some get BK 26:15 has it even worse playing chestnut farms from total wind farms Yeah. Old Carter I don't remember old oh yeah old Carter the new one that came out Yeah, yeah. It has it on it's 11 Yeah, somebody said Maker's Mark I don't recall unless you're just talking about like the the 26:32 leases that they have and stuff like that. Yeah, rumor is that a pursuit series number 10 may have forced on it it's Ryan in his tracks it on. 26:43 It's not actually he's not 26:46 like he's kind of like just wavered to the side as he is a spine just gave out after getting thrown off the horse. 26:54 Penny horse at Kroger in a track suit. That's what needs to go on the label. 27:02 Yeah, I'm Woodford Derby models as mentioned now sure enough Yeah, every year 27:09 there's there's a lot of ties just with horses and bourbon as we can just see that from the sheer array of stuff that's out there. So I guess if you want a bottle of self put a horse on it. Yeah, that's like all old historical names and horses is what sells and bourbon right? It's Uh huh. That's right. Think about the two imagery it's that's typically what it is. And Tony just mentioned Bell meat as well. Another one forgot about Oh, yeah. 27:37 So So associating an animal with the label to have a spirit tends to help it tends to do better wine will do that to make 27:47 apps Of course it does. 27:50 The animal on it too. 27:53 Alright, so while we're talking about animals and spirit animals, Nick, if you were to start a brand to put 27:58 your spirit 28:02 Dragon 28:08 attack Season Two I mean I have no idea I was just thinking of the movie Coco for some reason I don't know why 28:15 you're gonna say How to Train Your Dragon because that's been on repeat in the bourbon or household as of recently. I don't know why my kids don't like that for whatever reason I love the movie and they watched it once No, we don't refuse to watch this is actually good. Yeah. 28:31 Alright, so let's go ahead and move on because you know, Bellamy just mentioned and Bell meat is part of one of the things that kind of leads us into this next conversation in this is just seeing what's happened with MTV lately. MTV prices are skyrocketing. Mike drop is trading for around the issues. Mike Trump, I think number one, or maybe number two, I can't forget which one is trading at the same values of Pappy 23. There's now a dedicated Facebook trading group. 29:00 Only MTP and I'm seeing more brands in that group than I've ever even heard of before. And you see people that are trying to sort of figure out where's the where's the next distillery with h doc of MTP that's selling it. And then they're ordering it and then it's just kind of like moving on to the next one. So can you guys think of like when this phenomenon began of people that just started going crazy over MTP? It's funny, like, I don't know what to look back at. It wasn't too long ago where we were like, talking about Isn't it just MTP that they're just putting it out there and like, you know, nobody was buying it because they're like, isn't it just another MTP? And it's funny how the tides have turned to the other and I'm not sure what started I'm sure with anything in bourbon, it's, there's less and less age stock of it. So now people think it's better, which it is great. I mean, I love 12 year MTP 1314 is some of the best stuff out there. But yeah, I don't get it. Because I mean 30:00 Sorry, go ahead. I mean, yeah, just go ahead. I was gonna say, I think when, at one point when it was kind of behind a brand and, you know, you knew they're making it easy, but you knew you had a pretty big accessible brand. That was one thing, but now that you're seeing these smaller niche brands, with MVP, you know, with, in some cases, age statements and other cases, just a limited number of bottle bottlings you know, limit number of bottles, it's got some hype, some momentum behind it. I think people have come around to the fact that empty p really knows what they're doing. I mean, they're good at making whiskey. You know, there's no question about that. And in combination with people that are good at marketing whiskey, and in some cases, it is really good whiskey. I think that's kind of that snowball is kind of happened here. And you know, it's, it's if there's enough different about the label, enough different about you know, people are talking about it that's going to generate that snowball effect for it. You know, I think that's what we're kind of seeing happen, you know, you're no longer having the, you know, I'm a big sorcerer of bourbon and it's 31:00 I'm going to make everything tastes the same. And you know that's going to be our goal and said, You're seeing no I'm going to make a niche product with a small you know, number of bottles and I'm going to make that look and feel special and MTP is behind. In a lot of cases then it's getting more limited to find the older stuff. That's what's happening. And people want it because the momentum is finally built up. Well, I see it it's a little odd because I think if you get you can just Google it. I think there's a there's a article out there that says your craft distiller is actually coming from a, like a warehouse in Indiana. 31:35 Indiana, I think that's exactly what it was. And that's I remember that I remember when that came out years ago. And that's kind of what helped kind of kickstart my education because that was something that I wasn't necessarily always up to snuff about. And that's really when you start learning how to read labels you understand when it says distilled in Indiana, like all of a sudden, like the cogs start clicking together and the gear start moving but 32:00 It's funny because at that time, there was this stigma or this kind of like, thought process that people said, Well, why would you just want to buy somebody source whiskey? Like, why don't you just go buy somebody that is distilling it and making themselves like its transparency on the label. But now it's kind of done a complete one at where people are like, Oh, yeah, I just, I just want that. Like, I don't care if it says Traverse City or blonde brothers or whatever it is like, I just want the juice that's inside. 32:32 Yeah, I mean, I agree with Nick. Sorry, Blake. I agree with Nick. Its marketing. I mean, my word. It's the same stuff that's been out and like Kenny, like you say, it's originally people were Pooh poohed it because it all came from Indiana. So the only thing different is, how it's marketed and the price that they charge for it. 32:52 So I don't know. So go ahead, like, yeah, so I would kind of go with that. It's proven itself as a really good thing. So 33:00 But but there is some differences you know, for me it goes back to like the smooth Ambler days when they were sourcing and putting out a lot where that was what first really turned me on to MTP was like oh wow, this stuff is really good. And then you know, you taste some from other distilleries or brands and labels, that kind of stuff. It's like, this is MVP, but it tastes different. So it becomes a little bit of a collector thing to it's like, with Buffalo Trace. Yeah, I love Buffalo Trace. But why would I just buy the Buffalo Trace brand? Why do I still try to buy the stags and all that of the world because there's difference in the barrels. 33:37 So I would agree it is marketing but who's the one really doing the marketing because in GP, I mean what they spend, you know, a couple hundred bucks a year on marketing or something. And it's really these labels and brands that are kind of put given the push behind it, but with these kind of groups, everything, they aren't really looking at the marketing nearly as much in my opinion, you 34:00 They're they're focused on the actual bourbon and then it just becomes a little bit of a cultish thing and 34:08 it's like, you know, sits a Willer all that much better. Is it $2,000 better, better than a comparable bottle? Probably not. But it's got a little bit of a, you know, 34:19 cache behind it that, that gives it that extra boost that it needs. So. And I also say that because I have an MVP pic coming out pretty soon, so it's going to be worth at least $700. 34:33 It's getting harder to find these distilleries. And that, 34:37 that have h product, you know, a lot of four and six years old. Yeah, I just happened to find, you know, Bull Run has some that's close to 13. Well, a little over 13 years old and it's you don't see that popping up nearly as much anymore. Yeah, I think that's a good point from Blake because there's a huge gap between, you know, like you said the four to five year MVP. 35:00 To the 1312 to 1314, you know, there's not really anything in between and so like, you have like a very rare supply of the older age stuff, and then a huge gap until it's younger. And so that age stuff is just getting kind of hype because of the supply side of that. And that's probably what most Bourbons out there today, you know, because there is a huge gap and all Bourbons from five years to you know, 10 to 12. Frank has a pretty good theory in the chat. He said in my perspective, the allocation game has drove MTP promotion, which might be somewhat true, you know, you can't get your hands on a regular bottle Blanton's anymore. But you have some really good age stock of MTP that's floating around from multiple distilleries that you can get your hands on pretty well. So that's a that's a pretty good theory behind it as well. The other thing you know, we talked about the the marketing aspect, I don't know if I agree with the the way these brands we're doing marketing, I think it's it's been the community of of the underground groups that have 36:00 really been able to pick and find these things. If I recall like one of the first ever Blom brothers pics that I saw came out of cork and bottle up in Northern Kentucky and then after that, it's like, it's like a everybody just swarms to something and they just gobble it all up, they eat it up and then now like blood brothers is crushed like they have no more like age stock that they're putting to do their single barrel program. Same thing happened to Boone County like Boone County does 175 doddle Sorry, sorry, hundred $75 per bottle now through their gift shop of the same 1314 year in GP juice. And so it just it's this community, I think this is very bullish in regards of how they are going about acquiring this through multiple means of finding these distilleries. But part of that too, is is how small that an outlet is though, that's actually putting their label on it and selling it that people can identify that okay, it is something that's different from something else out there. 37:00 You know, it's, you know, 37:01 ultimately put together and bottled by this company over here, whether that company is deliberately somehow reaching those people or it's just by chance that they're being reached. And they're, they're small enough that that relatively small number of people can make a run on it. You know, it's almost as if you, you know, you separated into two what's behind it. So you've got the distillation, and then you've got ultimately the blending in most cases, some cases single barrel, just identifying what those are, and then you've put the label on it. I think what's behind it as well as people have recognized that MTP from a distillation perspective can do it has done a very good job and they've done a good job. They've made really good Bourbons, you know, and some companies are good at finding what those are and bottling them whether they're blending it or doing single barrels or whatever, you know, I think the communities kind of recognize that and and, you know, given them that credit, and when that happens, you know, they just like you said, Kenny there people are jumping on it because they believe that 38:00 It's going to beach they believe it's true and they believe that can be a really good bourbon. But it doesn't even have to be a good bourbon though. I mean, that's the thing if you're starting a new brand now the recipe is to source it to release under 2000. And bottles have a really cool label. And you just generate that hype and it sell Oh, and the other point is to have a really high price for so limited supply really high price, cool label, limited number for sale, and that just drives it and and like you guys are saying people eat it up and it just it feeds itself. 38:37 There's like an expansion to you know, for a while there's and maybe I was part of the problem too is you know, you're Kentucky snob at first and all you want to drink is Kentucky bourbon whiskey. And then all of a sudden you hear about this distilled in GPI Indiana sort of stuff, and you kind of you write it off for the longest time, and then all of a sudden you kind of somebody introduces you to it. You know, you get a few 39:00 From gamblers you do all that and you kind of start enjoying it and so it kind of starts breaking this mold now where everybody at some point just said like oh like Kentucky and now it's like okay well Kentucky and Indiana like how far is this going to go until it's keep spreading to say like okay well now we can say at least 16 states in the US are producing good whiskey so I think it's also going to be a kind of a breaking the mold of just how people envision and think of where can they get their bourbon now to Yeah, no doubt because most people they want the Kentucky name they want the Kentucky brand behind it and that gives them a lot of validity and credit that it's going to be something good but when reality you know, and we're Kentucky ends and we do make the best bar and there is a lot of good people out there making some really good use that can compete with us for sure. 39:52 But it is it's there's that stigma though, that if it's not Kentucky, then it's kind of 39:58 Homo 40:00 Yeah, just take a few years for that stigma ago and and I think at this point like, what would end up in distilled in Indiana does when you see that in the back label now people's ears perked up. They're like, All right, cool. It's going to be good Indiana stuff. And so I think it's just going to take its time, one last thought to I think maybe like some, something like Templeton Rob probably heard MVP for a little bit. Yeah. You know, because, like you said, that article, you know, came out and then they're like, well, if everybody's done in those brands, they just heard that, you know, that's not i'm not going to buy that and then, but once they actually tried, then their opinions change, but it's hard to break that opinion when it's so strong against it. Absolutely. And so when somebody in the bourbon guy just said, Kentucky, I'll change the game as far as pricing goes, that kind of leads us into our next little segment here. 40:51 There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever before. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? Rock house whiskey club is it was 41:00 The Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rack houses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in 40 states and rack houses June box they're featuring a distillery that claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey rack house whiskey club is shipping out two bottles from there, including its beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye, both of which were finished in barrels that were once used to mature America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out. And if you're a beer guy like me, you would know that's new Hollins dragon milk, go to rock house whiskey club. com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 41:51 I haven't actually tried it yet. Ryan and I both have samples and Kentucky out confiscated However, there's there's a certain name he's been on the podcast Blake Woodard it seems like he's on him. 42:00 To make Dixon feel really, really bad about himself, but you know, he He kind of looks at what Kentucky confiscated his as the when he say the speaker van, or sorry, the was it was the analogy he used the guys selling secrets away Why man? Yeah, that that analogy essentially saying that what they're doing is they're sourcing a bourbon, which everybody knows that Kentucky is sourcing. However they're putting no age statement on it. And they're selling it for around $100 hundred and $30 in some markets. So what do you guys see on the thoughts of the future? Do you think this is going to be leading the pack in regards of other people doing this or do you think this is going to be a one off and who knows if it's going to sell through or not? 42:49 Well, I've got I got a story. It's on the topic. But before we jump into it, so when when my wife and I first got married, bought our house, we went furniture shopping, we're looking for 43:00 room set. And the first day we went to small store, one salesman, walked us through the whole store told us everything we didn't want to know about furniture and everything about it. And we were enlightened, but also really kind of dazed and confused. Went to the next store, and very different experience, the person walking around was, you know, just kind of touching on things. And we came up to one set that was like $6,000. And, and she said, Now this, this is like, this is the best set, and I'm looking at I didn't like the style of it. I didn't recognize at all, what would make it better. And I said, why is this one the best one, and she looks and she was really stumped. And she looks at me with a straight face and says, well, it's just more expensive 43:45 to be the natural transition. So I wanted to say that before we jumped into this conversation, just as because it's this kind of reminded me of that, in a sense as I started to dig into what's actually inside this bottle, trying to figure out what I've got here. You know, I have a sample here to behind me. 44:00 Yeah, it's, it's, it's what the old adage, perception is reality and you know, the way the price things are people are automatically going to think it's premium or superior to all the, you know, everyday Bourbons the probably the everyday consumers that it does work with us, we can kind of sniff it out and you know, but maybe that's not who they're trying to go after. So maybe they don't give a shit what we think and they're going to price it that way anyways, and they should, you know, and see what the market bears because that's what those people you know, so they pay it, why not? But you know, 44:35 you've priced it right if they pay it. Yeah, and I have and I have not tried it so I can't say it's worth it or not worth it. But it's it's hard to say it's probably going to be worth it but maybe it will be we'll see like how we kept count of how many posts that been on your Facebook group about people holding bottles of and saying is this a good buy? 44:56 Those all get deleted. don't post any unopened Bob pictures. 45:00 America 45:01 I mean, I think I see at least one a week between either that or Houston bourbon society one of the other, it definitely is in and that's the thing is like these these Bourbons and brands that are coming out now. They're not really made for the kind of store they're not made for the majority of the people watching this podcast like I love what Dixon is doing and he's an incredible Blender but at the end of the day, you know, there's a sales machine behind it, that's that's pricing this stuff and coming up with new brands and all that kind of stuff. So that's where I think 45:36 we're just seeing the beginning of the actual pricing and, you know, having a more expensive bottle, and we I still don't think we've seen the real big money get into bourbon that we will in five or six years, you know, I still think we're on the forefront of that when you look like what's going on with wine and scotch and all that and kind of to Nick's point of stores, people are going to walk in and 46:00 say oh I want the best bourbon you have they're just going to grab what's most expensive on the shelf so I can't blame these brands for doing that. Now am I going to be going out in spending my bottle or or spending my money on those bottles or even suggesting people that this is the best buy? No but I mean if if we just wanted to buy the best value we buy nothing but I don't know wild turkey want to want or something so to me it's about trying something new trying something different. If $130 doesn't like set you back and you're it's between that and paying the mortgage that month like enjoy a drink the bourbon have fun. 46:44 But you know don't get too caught up in the hype of just having an expensive bottle to buy. So 46:50 it to me it's it's gotten a little out of control and it seems like Kentucky I was kind of getting the brunt of the force at times when that's just where the 47:00 The markets going all together. Well, I think they get a little bit of the brunt because it is an NDP and it is Nast. And I think that's really where a lot of a lot of that out Well, maybe, yeah, maybe that the combination of both 47:14 got me wrong we we like Dixon too and he's a he's a good friend of the show and stuff like that. You know, one thing I thought I just had, it was it was literally last week somebody was here in Louisville, and they said, I need to get a bottle of a birthday or sorry, a bottle of bourbon for my friend's birthday, as somewhere around like the $80 value. I'm kind of like, geez, I don't even know like 47:37 yeah, and then they're like, but you host a bourbon podcast. You can't tell me one bourbon at $80. 47:43 But anyway, you know, in this, this is kind of what could be there that fits that mold sort of that higher premium tier category that you know, some but some people like us we may not be in for it. But you know the regular Joe that it's on the shelves, it has a high price tag. It's the perception that that's 48:00 They're now one Blake, I think I want to kind of like tail on to what you said there is you said that you don't think the real high dollar high price tag of bourbon has come yet. 48:12 I look at it and saying, I hope you're wrong. But kind of kind of expand on what you're thinking there. Yeah. So I mean, just think about the, the bottles, the expensive bottles that you have 48:26 sitting around now and had this conversation with somebody I think was last week or so I was like, Pappy 23, you know, secondaries probably 2020 500 48:36 at the most. There's guys spending, you know, upwards of 30 $40,000 48:42 on a bottle of scotch, there's guys spending, you know, $1,000 on a bottle of wine like it's nothing. The wines literally one sitting. So to a lot of the lot of this money like bourbon seems like a steal right now even where we are. You know if I can go spend 49:00 $3,000 on what's quote unquote, the best bourbon available and the most sought after bourbon in the world. Like That's nothing for a lot of these guys. And I think we'll start seeing more and more of that money start to pour in as we go through the years and you know, bourbon doesn't seem to be slowing down. So as much as we probably hate it as consumers and enthusiasts, the prices are just going to continue to go up and up and up. And 49:25 you know, I don't see that slowing down anytime soon. When the the Kevin O'Leary's of Shark Tank start making their way 49:33 whenever he starts buying Pappy and putting on a show, we're all in trouble. Yeah. Yeah, when Blake said that, that caught my attention to because I I'm past the time now where it must have been five, six years ago, I figured by now, I would have bought a still out of bankruptcy for some from some craft distiller who had failed and the prices would be back down to where they were, they were 10 years ago and I was totally wrong. 50:00 I mean, it's it's still going up and you get new releases coming out at 150 and $200. And 50:08 if the market bears it's with more fans coming on, it's, it's going to keep going up. And I was sorry, go ahead brand. And know that Yeah, just wrapping up on there. It's just it's continuing to climb and it surprises the hell out of me. And I think what's interesting is if you kind of think about scotch and if you go to a store with a fairly deep selection, you know, the scotch that you see on the shelf in the price of the scotch on the shelf, and if you go in the back room where, you know, that same bottle for $3,000 has been there, the one for $5,000 has been there, you know, and eventually somebody's going to buy it, you know, this stuff is on the shelf all the time, and you kind of don't have this run on it. Whereas with bourbon, when you have these kind of higher cost releases, you're still getting the the liquor store holding in the back parsing it out is something special for somebody. They touch the shelves. 51:00 In a lot of times, they're gone. I mean, there are the exceptions, of course. And I think we've tested that a little bit with, you know, some of these releases. I mean, I know some of the knob Creek releases that were special releases are still kind of hanging around, you know, above the hundred dollar mark, some of the wild turkey releases are still kind of hanging around. So I think the markets kind of touched that a little bit with bourbon and seeing that, in some cases, it will, you know, in some areas, at least sit for, you know, for quite a while and maybe doesn't have that same kind of momentum that scotch has built up over time. But I do think we're still potentially on that on that precipice on the beginning of, you know, seeing the higher price stuff but also seeing it as regular everyday stuff. kind of think of it like Bazell Haven, which, you know, around here is 40 to $50. You know, sometimes a little bit more. There's nothing inherently really special about that besides what the label is, you know, but in somebody's price range that feels like a special bottle. It looks like a special bottle. You know, for a lot of people 80 proof is fine. They don't really want any more than that. They're going to put down the rocks anyway. 52:00 You know, so that same person, whether go hunt, and when they go hunting for a gift for somebody, and they don't see anything in bourbon for over $80 on the shelf, because it's gone, or it's not there, it's in the background and they're not going to sell it to them. They see something like this, they don't know about age statements, they don't know about the story. They're not going to Google it. any of that, you know, they're going to somebody's going to say, this is really good stuff. And they're going to say, well, it must be it's $125. I'll take it, you know, and I think we're going to see that happen. And that got me thinking too, because I was I was thinking about I said, you know, I've written all the press releases trying to dig into this, I've got a bunch of questions out to the company. I'm waiting to hear back on and, you know, it's kind of, I think the non age stated is kind of thing that jumps out. But to me, it's more than that, because you definitely see, you know, Bourbons that don't have an age statement that are good, but it's more of the kind of like, just give me something about it, you know, give me more than just the tasting notes. You know, bourbon, I think kind of needs for me at least somewhat of a story with it. If it's not apparently obvious, you know, where it's just too 53:00 Tell me more about it. Tell me how it came to be. Give me some background about this. I mean, the story could be kind of cool, but it's all right. There's nothing there. It's a name. I want to know more about what's in this bottle to make it feel a little bit more special if it's going to be up at 125. And I'm going to think about buying it. Right. Yeah. I think we totally discount like, because we are enthusiasts and we have run a bourbon comedian roundtable how 53:27 o'clock at night? Yeah. 53:29 How naive and kind of gullible shoppers are, you know, everyday shoppers, and I'm reminded about this every time my wife sends me to go buy wine at the liquor store, I go and I have no idea and I'm like, Look, can somebody help me out here? Like, you know, 53:45 what's a good value? What's a good bottle you know, here and you know, so it's, you know, that there there is that at play. You know, there's a lot of people getting into this game and like you said, You somebody shows me a 40 or $50 bottle of wine which is expensive for wine because you have to drink and when 54:00 Sitting I'm like, well, it's gotta be pretty good and you know, it's higher dollar or, you know, where if it's like the seven or $8 one, which it's probably good but and probably just as good as the 40 or 50 I'm like, we'll just you know pass on that one so 54:15 so needless to say we need to start upping our prices on everything to start fitness new market is what you're trying to say. That's pretty much Well, I mean it when you think about what what Blake just said in having these these crazy asinine releases or these scotches that are $30,000 there is a little bit of the market that is kind of getting hit with that right now. I mean, Buffalo Trace and Sazerac they're doing their best to try to do it you know, the UFC releases the devil Eagle, very rare. These $6,000 bottles, $9,000 bottles that, you know, 54:49 we typically don't see at the retail store shelves in. That's actually the actually probably, another good point is that if you all saw one of those 55:00 Would you buy it? Because at this point you're kind of like 55:06 but I don't want to know if I want to be a part of that or not someone offered me double Eagle or whatever. albatross What are we calling that? What? 55:17 They said, Hey, the distributor can probably get two bottles. Do you want them like oh yeah, I'll take them both. Absolutely. Then they met somebody else but then I'm in the back of my head thinking like, am I about to spend 30 hundred dollars on a slightly older Eagle rare 17 you know, like, Is that where we are in the game? But yeah, you get caught in the hype. You go and you see it selling for $5,000 or whatever it is. And you kind of think, oh, man, this is smart. And 55:50 I mean, there's people out there that flip sport cars and you know, crazy stuff like that. So it's it's, there's always a market for that. So don't steal this. 56:00 blog post idea because it's still in the works, but I read your blog, you know, right. 56:06 I started like collecting stories from all these other enthusiast, which talks about, you know, what's the most expensive, expensive thing in their field? And there's like, I was talking to my uncle about it and he was talking to me about these wood duck decoys where guys are spending six $7,000 for wood duck decoys. I'm like, Okay, if somebody can spend that much for a wood duck decoys or cutter because it's, you know, Scotty Cameron used it to put left handed once you know, if there's all these other things, maybe Bourbons not as dumb and as crazy as anything. But, you know, every hobbyist and enthusiast kind of has their thing in their, you know, in their little circle. And to them, it seems crazy. To outside people. It seems real crazy. But at the end of the day, if the money's there, the money's there. Yep, absolutely. I explained it to your wife, Blake. When you buy it. 57:02 It's not crazy when you like 57:07 when you have those secret credit card stashed 57:10 on a CD with ducks 57:15 What in the world is that is like well, you know, Ernest Hemingway or I don't know what he is I kind of lost track after he's it 57:24 sounds like a bourbon story so yeah, really cool. So the last row bourbon 57:31 wouldn't duck and horses it'll, it'll all come together and it'll it'll stop. So the last thing we want to hit on kind of leave this on a high note is it's kind of basically I think it's out there now there was a TTP article I saw somebody that had a distillery sample already. So I think it's going to pretty much be solid at this point that Wild Turkey has announced that they are releasing their next limited edition masters keep it is he called Cornerstone it is a rye 17 year rye price. 58:00 Around $175 hitting the shelves in August and it's going to be about 15,000 bottles available nationwide which is a pretty pretty good release. So anybody excited for this one to kind of see a ride come out of this considering I think the past couple years we haven't seen a Russell's reserve right on the shelf 58:19 take notes heaven Hill and Parker's heritage collection. 58:24 Yeah. More I mean I'm really excited about this 58:29 you know, I think the need for a little bit of older I What's it is barrel proof. 109 proof. Okay. Which you know, the wild turkey in and 58:43 go there. Yeah, that might have gone in at 107. 58:47 I mean, that's, I'm more excited about that and any other release I've seen in 2019. So not even though Miss Rose recent orphan barrel with the big old buck that was up there. Well 59:00 Was that called bad decisions? Or 59:03 it's a scotch isn't it? It is. It's like a like a 20 something year old scotch or something like that hard to believe with how light the color looks in the pictures. 59:13 Yeah, well anyway, let's get back to Turkey. I'm excited. 59:18 I'm excited for wild turkey. You know, I, I feel like some of their first few kind of limited releases at least that I kind of get into. I just, they didn't hit the mark for me. 59:27 I feel like they've been getting better and better. I there's certainly, you know, very capable. So you know, I feel like we're just waiting for some more of those limited releases from them to just be some of the magic bottles you know, and really have the people in the story and everything behind it, you know, to you know, to back all that up. So, I'm excited for everything, everything they're doing and excited to see something different. excited to see Orion. I love rice. I'm a big fan of rice. So whenever there's a limited release, right, I'm typically 59:59 into 1:00:00 It camped out to me. Yeah. On that point, they say that Jimmy is not a fan of rise. So when this guy announced that it's going to be a ride that surprised me, but I'm still really excited about it to have that age that does mean that it probably went in at 107 1:00:17 it's it's definitely gonna be worth trying. So I'm excited about it. The question is, will you buy as many as you bought at the diamond? 1:00:29 Well, that's funny. I 1:00:33 wasn't a fan of it was the diamond Was it because of the ages the age? I mean, they talked about the age being more than what he obviously liked. And I'll get back from from testing lens I had had more rage in it and that I you know, in whatever my opinions worth, I thought was better. But yeah, so he's, he's got, he got to defer to him, to some extent, no doubt about that. Not going to try 1:01:00 Trump him but hearing that it doesn't like Ryan's hearing that this one is awry. kind of confused me but I'm I'm all over it for that age and that proof and and what that probably went into the barrel at that's that's bound to be good. Yeah I think they're making a way for the new blood because we were down doing our barrel pick of Russell's and Bruce, Eddie son. He's a huge rock fan and he let us taste some of some fantastic Rob barrels. And I'm really excited about this one. I think Walter he's kind of whiffed on a bunch of special releases and I'm hoping that this one is kind of a home run because the rise that me and candy tasted there were fantastic and I'm excited for this. Yeah, I'm pulling for him on that is kind of interesting. You know, you think about the missus. It seems like the Russell Brand assumed done pretty well with the 1998 that was 2002 two 1:02:00 Awesome too, but then the Masters keeps, I mean, some of them have been pretty good, but for the majority, they just kind of sit on the shelf. So it will be interesting to see if this kind of changes the tide a little bit for them. I know and it's surprising because rafal pics are so good, like, you know, 1:02:16 one of my favorites to do and it's like, how can they not get their limited releases down you know, it's like it's like something's not connecting there but hopefully this one hopefully they hit the park with this one was like they're trying to make the real limited releases somewhere out of the out of the bounds, you know, almost out of the bounds of that sweet spot of you know, 1012 years old and you know, the sweet spot with the proof and everything and so you say well, we we can just do that and battle the same thing. You know, we put in Russell's reserve single barrel or whatever it might be. So it's got to be different. It's got to be older, different proof or you know, something like that. I think that's what the struggle span is because they have kind of been so good at that sweet spot that now it's well we got it. We got to get outside the 1:03:00 sweet spot to make this thing special. So what do we do? You know, and I think that's been their challenge. Yep. Yeah. I mean, you're right. It's hard to make a limited release, if you just put a limited release out that's like, again, like camp Nelson effort. 10 years old, like, everybody be like, Wait a second. 1:03:17 We go and select these all day for $55. You can me. So yeah, they do have a little bit of an issue when it comes to that. But yeah, I mean, I think everybody's pulling form, everybody's kind of really been, you know, this is actually probably been the worst kept secret and bourbon for the longest time. Everybody sort of knew that there was going to be some aged rye release happening at some point. So we're glad that it's finally out there in the open and, you know, I'm excited for it, hopefully get my hands on a bottle or two. And, you know, 1:03:45 hopefully it's better than diamonds. Right. That's all we can. 1:03:51 The bar has been set. 1:03:55 So with that, let's go ahead and we will wrap it up. So again, gentlemen, thank you so much for coming. 1:04:00 going on tonight and joining us on this 200th episode couldn't have picked a better way for this to happen just I mean just sheer luck that it just happened to be on the dropped on the third week of when we do these so it just you think I started planning this out 32 rounds ago but it didn't actually happen that way so let you go ahead and kind of close out each one of yourself so Blake go ahead and go first. Yeah, once again thanks for having me. You know we always like to come on here and jerk around have a good time but it's always fun. So Brian Kenny, thanks for doing this. It's a you know, hopefully we'll have another 200 Here comes in so and the way you crank things out it'll be what 1:04:44 but now so I'm Blake from bourbon or calm and CEO box calm. I said you can find me on all social m

There's a lot that goes into getting a mortgage. Join Jeremy as he interviews Ryan Langley, VP Branch Manager of Ruoff Mortgage in Bloomington, IN, on just how to get there.    Freebie: Get your money right video series Level up: New Home Buyer’s Guide comprehensive ecourse Contributors to this episode include: Host - Jeremy Goodrich  Copy Editing - Talia Chakraborty If you enjoyed this episode, stick around: SUBSCRIBE on Apple Podcasts.  REVIEW the show and SHARE with friends. JOIN the New Home Buyers Guide course to own the home buying process and the home of your dreams. With a 100% money back guarantee, you’ve got nothing to lose and a sweet house to gain. Thanks for listening!  More great stories & information at: YouTube - Podcast - Pinterest Course - Shine Insurance Full Transcript: Jeremy Goodrich: I'll introduce you again and then I'll pick the one I like better. Ryan Langley: Okay. No problem. Jeremy: We'll see how this intro goes. All right. Hey this is Jeremy from Shine Insurance and today I've got a special guest on our channel and his name is Ryan Langley. Ryan is the vice president branch manager of Ruoff Mortgage here in Bloomington, Indiana. He's a mortgage lander, and he has tons of information for us about exactly how to go about getting a mortgage and the processes you should think about. Now, in this video we're not going to talk about kinda the back end of very ends of the process. We're going to talk about maybe the most important part of the mortgage getting process. I don't even know if that's an actual phrase, but we're going to talk about the five steps you need to take before even considering buying a house. So Ryan, thank you so much for being with us today. Ryan: Thanks for having me. Jeremy: Okay. I'm really excited, I've decided I want to buy a house. I'm going to go out, I'm going to get a realtor, I'm going to start looking at houses right away. Is that what I should do? Ryan: No. Jeremy: And so why not? Ryan: Yeah. Getting the realtor is definitely part of the process. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: You're going to want to kinda keep that part of mind up front. But there's several steps that you should take prior to going out and rushing out and making an offer on a home. For starters, most realtors are going to want to make sure that you've got your ducks in a row and have taken some steps to make sure that you're ready to buy a house before they can even start showing you the home. Jeremy: What do you mean by ready to buy a house? What do I need to be to be ready to buy a house? Ryan: Sure, sure. The first thing that I will always advise anybody that comes into office that's just thinking about it, just at the very early stages, is to take care of those things that you know might be an issue in your credit report. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: You know that you've got some late pays, or you routinely pay late on the credit cards, due loans, auto loans, you name it, on the type of debts that you may have out there. Make sure you get your house in order regarding your current debt obligations. That doesn't mean pay them off necessarily, but that definitely means make sure that you're current on every single payment and that you have been current on them. If you're habitually late on your payments each month, that's often times viewed as a negative on your credit report and your credit score will reflect that. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: That would be one of the very first things that you should think about if you're thinking about purchasing a home, is making sure that everything's up to date and you're paying things on time. Jeremy: So figuring out your credit score is really that number one? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jeremy: Being up to date on payments is one way of addressing your credit score. When you see people trying to fix their credit scores, are there some more important things than others? Ryan: Number one thing is, on all debt is make sure that you're current. One of the worst things that you can do is to get late and stay late on it. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: If it's a... One or two here and there that are over 30 days. Most credit bureaus don't report until you're over 30 days late on a payment. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: You've got some leeway time in there most often. But you really want to make sure that everything is paid on time. Now paid off necessarily, 'cause some debt's a good thing. But you want to make sure that everything's current. Jeremy: Having your credit in order, and the best way you can do that is by keeping everything current, keeping your debts paid. Not necessarily paid up completely, like paid down. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jeremy: But your debt's up to date. Okay. What's the next thing we should do to get our house in order before buying a house? Ryan: Next thing you should consider is taking a look at your finances and getting a good idea of what you feel you may be able to afford. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: That may not be necessarily what the lender will tell you later on, but it's always helpful for a lender if we got a general sense of the price range that you're looking in. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: For a first time home buyers, it obviously depends on your current income situation. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: It depends on if you're single. Depends on if you've got multiple incomes in a household. There's a lot of factors that you would take into consideration yourself and there's all kinds of calculators out there online that you can log on and see to get a general sense of what a payment may look like and what they may look for. And a very good starting spot would be what are you paying in rent each month. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: Are you struggling to make that payment as it is right now? Or, are you making it easily and you can afford some more payment? A very good starting spot would be to kinda look at where you're at on your rent payments, versus what you might be able to afford on a monthly basis on a mortgage. Jeremy: Okay, cool. If I wanted to look up one of those calculators, what might I choose for my Google search? Ryan: You can go to ruoff.com. Jeremy: Okay. Ryan: We've got calculators on our website that you can use, and that's typically where I would direct you to go and find a good calculator to use. You can also use any numerous websites, bankrate.com. There's a lot of other ones out there- Jeremy: Okay. Ryan: That would be sufficient. Jeremy: Mortgage calculator. Ryan: You can type in "mortgage calculator", and you'll get a 100 different options on finding it. Jeremy: Okay. Ryan: They're all going to be accurate. You put in, for the most part, most first time home buyers are going to be looking for a 30 year fix mortgage, so you type in "mortgage calculator", use the rate that they've got in there just for an example, that doesn't mean that's what rates are currently, but that does give you a general sense of where you would be on a monthly payment. Jeremy: Okay. I'm going to get my credit in order, I'm gonna look at what I might be able to do as far as a payment goes using my rent as a great example of a place to start. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jeremy: Then ruoff.com mortgage calculator would be another wonderful place to kinda figure that out. Okay, that's the first two. What's the next thing I should do? Ryan: Next thing you should do, before reaching out to a lender, which will be step four, but before we get to step four, step three is to start thinking about the preliminary documentation. Yes, it does take a lot of paperwork, or what can feel like a lot of paperwork at times... Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: To get a mortgage, to obtain a mortgage. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: The base amount of documentation that almost every single mortgage lender will ask you for would be a driver's licence or a passport, your last two years federal tax returns, last two years W2s. If you receive W2s, your most recent pay stub, and your last two months complete bank statements that may show any assets that you have available for down payment. That would be the core group of items that you would need to get. Of course, it will always depend on your situation, depends on if you're self employed, depends on if you've got additional businesses that are attached to that. Those things can change, but that would a very good list of things that you should think about, just getting upfront before even calling the mortgage loan officer. Jeremy: Cool. If you didn't write that down, we put it down in the notes right below this video. You can look at the list of things that you should have ready before you even call a mortgage lender. Okay, so that was step three, get your documentation in order. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jeremy: Step four, you've kind of already alluded to, let's go for it. Ryan: Step four, that's when you're calling the mortgage lender and you set an appointment. Often times, as a first time home buyer, it would be helpful to meet face to face, but anymore in this day of age where we can access anything online, the vast majority of mortgage lenders are going to have that option for you to go out and apply for a mortgage online. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: Though, anytime a first time home buyer, if you're looking... The mortgage lending process has become so complex and there's so many regulations and so many documents out there, any time that you can get face to face with a lender I would suggest that you do so. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: So that they can help thoroughly explain the cost and the fees and everything that's associated with the process. More often than not, the mortgage pre-approval process should take anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: It shouldn't take much more time than that. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: If it does, you can go back to our previous video and hear what I have to say about the communication piece. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative), and that is the- Ryan: It all comes back to communication. Jeremy: Yeah, and that video is the three different things to think about when you're choosing a mortgage lender, and you can see that on the Shine Insurance YouTube channel as well. Step four, going ahead and contacting the mortgage broker and getting pre-approved for a loan. Okay, what's step five? Ryan: Well, step five, what I did have is you want to save some down payment. Well, that may not necessarily be true for everybody's scenario. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: We do have loan programs where you can have zero percent down, loan programs where it only takes three percent or three and a half, and that money may be coming from a relative in the form of a gift. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: That's definitely something we can add to our list if you're considering receiving a gift there's different loan programs that we will accept it and different loan programs that will not. Jeremy: Receiving a gift as a down payment for a mortgage? Ryan: Sure. Certainly. Jeremy: I see. So, your dad or mom wants to pay the down payment as a gift and some tax benefit potentially happens there. Ryan: Certainly. Jeremy: Some companies will let that happen and some won't. Ryan: Well, most companies will, but it does depend on the mortgage product itself. It depends on whether or not it's FAG or conventional loan, USDA, or a home ready product where it allows for a three percent down. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: There's a lot of programs that have different rules and regulations, which you really want to make sure that the mortgage lender that you're working with is knowledgeable and understands those rules, and which products can be used... Either that you use a down payment as a gift form and which ones you can not. Jeremy: Right, okay. Ryan: But I would say the fifth and final thing that we should discuss leading up to the mortgage is get a general sense of who you're going to want to work with as a realtor, if you're going to be shopping for homes. Jeremy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan: And also get a general sense in your home owners insurance, which is a very important piece that's always, or often times, not always, but often times overlooked in the beginning stages of the process is you want to kinda have a general idea of who you may want to work. I would always, always encourage you to use a local insurance company versus going online, just like I would always encourage you to use a local lender verus going online to find a lender. Jeremy: For the same reasons, because the advice is better, the contact is better, the communication is better and then that's true for I think both sides. Okay, so step five was... Ryan: Step five would be to get a general sense of who you're going to use for as a real estate agent and who you would be using for your home owner's insurance. Jeremy: Okay. All right, cool. Well, that sounds really good. All those things, and I think what's so great about talking about this right now is both you and I see, as we see people purchasing homes, that they don't do a lot of this stuff ahead of time. Then it becomes a disappointing scenario. Instead, I really think buying a house should be fun. Ryan: Yeah. Jeremy: But it can very quickly turn into a lot of work, tragedy, disappointment, things of that nature. I think the five steps you've talked to us about today will help folks to avoid that. Ryan: Absolutely. Jeremy: Okay. If folks want to come and find you for a mortgage, how can they do that Ryan? Ryan: The best way to contact me would be to call, phone number here in Bloomington, which is 812-650-3800, and also be found online at www.ruoff.com. That's R-U-O-F-F.com Or send an email directly to Ryan.langley@ruoff.com. Jeremy: All right. Well, thank you so much for taking some time out of your schedule today to help us understand mortgages a little bit better. Ryan: Thank you for having me.

It is hard to believe that For The Players – The PopCulturists’ PlayStation Podcast has released 100 episodes. It is kinda astounding. To celebrate PlayStation has kindly dropped some MASSIVE PS5 news. Mark Cerny has recently sat down with Wired to share the internal specs of the next gen beast. So Ryan and Josh break […]

GUEST BIO: Ryan Levick is a developer advocate working in Berlin.  Ryan joined Microsoft as a result of its acquisition of Wunderlist in 2015.  Ryan has spent his career building apps on both the server and client side and exploring a wide range of open source technologies with a particular focus on functional programming.   Ryan has a passion for the Rust programming language, which he often writes about on Twitter and on his blog, and speaks about at conferences. EPISODE DESCRIPTION: Phil’s guest on today’s show is Ryan Levick. He came late to programming, having worked in marketing, communications, and business. Despite this, after just a few years of programming, Microsoft asked them to join them as a senior engineer. They did so when they acquired 6Wunderkinder, which included Wunderlist, which Ryan was working as a backend engineer. Today, he is a Principal Cloud Developer Advocate. Over the years, he has used numerous languages, including, Ruby, Rails, Scala, Elixir, JavaScript and many others. He is currently learning and working with Rust. As well as working in the Cloud. Primarily, using Azure but he is also learning other competing cloud platforms. Ryan is also a conference speaker. KEY TAKEAWAYS: (1.11) – So Ryan, can I ask you to expand on that brief intro and tell us a little bit more about yourself? Ryan explains that he studied marketing, so that is the sector he began working in, when he left university. Around that time, he moved to Berlin and joined a start-up called 6Wunderkinder. That was when he first started to learn to programme. In time, he became a full-time programmer for them working on their Wunderlist project. (1.41) - I don't know anything about 6Wunderkinder or Wunderlist, can you give us an overview of what they're about? It is a small company that focuses on building productivity software. In 2015, it was acquired by Microsoft, which is when Ryan secured the first of the 3 jobs he has had with Microsoft. (2.02) – Can you please share a unique career tip with the I.T. career audience? Learn as much as you can and spread out in weird and strange directions. Even if what you are learning is not immediately useful, it may be one day. This will push you to explore areas of computer science and programming you would not have otherwise looked at. (2.45) – Is this something you do yourself? Yes, all the time. (3.04) – Do you focus on the strange and unusual? If yes, how do you do that? Ryan explains that he picks up on new trends all sorts of people are talking about, then explores as many of them as possible. Usually, even if something is not ready for real-time use there are still lessons to be learned from that technology. The trick is to learn about something, then generalize that knowledge. Doing this enables you to apply it elsewhere. He always stops and asks himself how he can apply what he has learned to real-time applications and his job. (4.31) – Can you tell us about your worst career moment? And what you learned from that experience. Ryan says he hesitates to say worst because his worst career moment actually turned out to be an amazing experience. Recently, he became the manager of a small team. A role he really enjoyed, but the problem was that running his team did not leave him enough time to be hands-on and continue to learn. As a result, he feels he can categorize this experience as his worst career moment. (5.29) – So, stepping away and being more managerial is not necessarily something you want in the future? Ryan explains that he was continuing to learn new skills. About people management, career growth and things like that. But, he found that he was not waking up in the morning wanting to rush to the office like he used to. Ryan thinks it is important to find things that make you feel enthusiastic and stick to doing them. (6.08) – What was your best career moment? Ryan says he has been lucky enough to have had quite a few career highlights. For example, it felt great when Microsoft took over 6Wunderkinder and offered him a job straight away. He had only been programming for a few years, yet was still asked to become a senior engineer for Microsoft. It proves that, in this industry, if you work hard you do not necessarily need a computer science degree to be able to succeed. (7.04) - So presumably, you were able to demonstrate your value to Microsoft? Ryan explains that he was able to do exactly that primarily by showing them that he looked for and recognized new angles. He did this primarily by not being afraid to ask the so-called dumb questions, the ones nobody else wanted to ask. It turns out that, most of the time, dumb questions are the right questions, (7.51) – Can you tell us what excites you about the future of the IT industry and careers? The fact that things can change almost literally overnight is something that Ryan finds exciting about working in the IT industry. A few months ago he started a new job as a Developer Advocate. Even in that short period of time, the role has already evolved and changed significantly. The pace of change is amazingly fast. So, you never stop learning, which is exciting. (8.40) – Is there any technology or direction that particularly interests you? At the moment, Ryan is fascinated by a technology called web assembly. It enables you to run programs in a very controlled way. Web Assembly has the potential to drastically change the world of IT. Including how things are done on servers, in web browsers, and on people’s computers. It is such a young technology that it is hard to tell what direction it will go in. (9.36) – A lot of companies now have Developer Advocates. How do you see that influencing the way in which people develop their careers? It is very important for companies that offer products and services to developers to build a strong and close relationship with them. One of Microsoft’s aims is to provide value to developers and other IT professionals. To give them the tools they need to succeed and change things for the better. In order to do that, Microsoft has developed the Azure platform, Visual Studio and Visual Studio Code. But, it is not enough to simply deliver these tools. You need to be sure that they are what IT professionals actually need. If you do not have a constant dialogue with these people, there is no way that you can serve them well. So, Ryan feels that one of his key roles is to have an honest dialogue with them. To figure out what is working for them and what is not and take that feedback back to Microsoft. Phil finds that interesting because, to date, developer advocacy has not been explained to him in that way. Others who fulfill this role have described it more as an evangelical role. To Phil it sounded like it was all about sharing a company’s latest products and ideas with IT professionals, rather than acting as a two-way feedback channel. Ryan explains that he does both. He showcases their products and helps IT professionals to recognize and unlock their true potential. But, if something is not up to standard, he  also wants to hear about it. So, that he can make sure that the product is updated and improved. (12.05) – What drew you to a career in IT? Ryan says it was curiosity that led him into the IT sector. He remembers looking over his colleague's shoulder at Wunderlist, realizing he did not understand what they were typing on the screen and started wondering how everything works. So, decided to find out. When he peeled the first layer back he just ended up with even more questions. His curiosity drew him in deeper and deeper. Now he realizes you can never know everything about computers and technology. It is impossible to hold it all in your head. Something that excites and drives him on. (12.53) – What is the best career advice you have ever received? Constantly put yourself in a position to learn the right skills. The skills that you think will be applicable to your future career. Don’t get into the position where you spend all of your time maintaining a legacy system or working on something that will only ever be used inside the company you work for. If you do that, finding and moving on to a new role will become very difficult. Make sure that you are always learning new transferable skills. (14.06) – If you were to begin your IT career again, right now, what would you do? Ryan says he would definitely get involved in what he is doing now – developer relations. He really enjoys working in this field. In particular, having a legitimate excuse to spend all day speaking to people about things he feels passionate about. Things they are passionate about too. It is the perfect opportunity to be continually learning. Ryan prefers being out talking to people to just sitting in front of a screen in a dark room. That kind of IT career is not the one he wants. (15.18) – What are you currently focusing on in your career? Right now, Ryan is focusing on growing his presence in the communities he cares most about. He is trying to become more t-shaped. That means continuing to maintain a wide breadth of knowledge while diving deep on one, maybe two, particular subjects. Right now, for Ryan, that means learning everything he can about cloud technology. That includes Azure of course. But, also his competitor’s technologies like AWS and Google’s cloud platform. He wants to make sure that when he needs to do so, he will have the right type of knowledge to easily switch to another job. Ryan is also working to grow his presence in the IT communities he is most interested in. That includes the Rust programming language community. He has been using this new language since late last year. (16.24) – What is the number one non-technical skill that has helped you the most in your IT career? For Ryan, the ability to listen has been critical to his success. He has noticed that a lot of developers talk too much. They forget to take a step back and just listen. Even if you are an expert in your choosen field that does not mean that you cannot learn from other people. The technology sector is so big and varied that you will rarely be the smartest person in the room. There are always subjects about which others are more knowledgeable than you. It pays to take a step back and just listen and ask questions and grow your understanding. (17.48) – Phil asks Ryan to share a final piece of career advice with the audience. Without wishing to sound like a broken record – don’t be afraid to explore. Find something you feel passionate about and dive deep into it. But, be sure to learn other things too. There is no harm in being a scatterbrain. If you believe you have covered a subject enough, don’t feel you have to stick with it forever. Instead, move on and learn something else. You will find that one set of knowledge feeds into your new subject. Ryan’s advice is to do as much as you can. Don’t worry about catching it all the first time around. Just explore, have fun and revisit it at a later date. BEST MOMENTS: (2.15) RYAN – "Try to learn as much as you possibly can and expand out into weird and strange directions." (5.23) RYAN – "If I'm not having fun at work, then I'm just not going to do as good of a job as I possibly can." (7.39) RYAN – "It turns out that most of the time the dumb questions are the right ones." (13.06) RYAN – "Constantly put yourself in the position to learn the right skills." (17.22) RYAN – "When you do talk, instead of talking at people, try to ask questions." CONTACT RYAN: Twitter: https://twitter.com/ryan_levick LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanlevick/ Website: https://blog.ryanlevick.com/

This is the first episode of a new weekly show with Sean (that's me) and Ryan McCabe. I always enjoy my conversations with Ryan. In early January of 2019, I called him for a specific reason, but our discussion expanded into something bigger, as it often does. Ryan is going to be great. You'll know this as soon as you hear him speak. Yet, Ryan and I rarely ever spoke with each other, save for the occasional text message! Unless there was a specific reason to call, we didn't often see each other outside holidays with the family. I wanted to change that. I asked Ryan if he would like to have a weekly call. Only good things can come of it, I said. He agreed. I recognize greatness in Ryan and I want to document what will undoubtedly be his meteoric rise. I also want to have someone like him in my life on a regular and frequent basis. I make a point to get around people with a positive mindset. When I realized 99% of what we say on our phone calls would be valuable to anyone listening in, I asked Ryan if he would be okay with recording the calls and sharing them. That quickly blossomed into the idea for this weekly podcast. That's how this show started: Weekly calls between two brothers shared with the world. But in order for you understand the mindset Ryan has, you will need to read a book. Just one book. Specifically, Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Read the physical book, listen to the audio book, or read it for free online, but you must read it. Think and Grow Rich will lay the necessary foundation for all of the conversations to come. If you've read the book, before, read it again. But as I write this, I know few will go and read the book on their own without any accountability. So Ryan and I have decided to make it impossible for you not to! How? We don't yet know what our weekly conversations will look like, but we know the first four months of this show will involve going through the entire book, Think and Grow Rich, one chapter per week. We invite you to join us by reading one chapter of Think and Grow Rich each week before listening to the corresponding episode. Step 1: Get the book (Amazon). The book was written in 1937 and it is now in the public domain. You can purchase the book if you like, but lacking money is no excuse not to read it as you can easily read the book online for free. ⭐️ Simply search the web for "Read Think and Grow Rich". Step 2: Read one chapter per week and listen to the correspondingly titled podcast episode. Can you listen to the podcast without reading the book? Yes, but you rob only yourself. This initial series is not intended to replace the book but rather to deepen your understanding by engaging in deeper discussion and commentary. Is this podcast a book club show? No. We are starting this podcast with the book, Think and Grow Rich, to lay a foundation for the conversations Ryan and I have. We will do normal, conversational, or topical episodes in the future. We may also decide at some point we would like to go through another book with you, but that remains to be seen. I'm subscribed to the seanwes podcast—do I need to subscribe to a new feed to get this show? Nope. New episodes will come out on the same feed you're already subscribed to. Nice and convenient! This episode is an introduction to the book club we're starting next week. You will learn how this book transformed not just Ryan's life, but also the life of our brother, Caleb. Coincidentally, Ryan and Caleb have gone through the book together, meeting weekly in person. You'll hear a bit about our backstory as brothers. Finally, you have your homework assignment and one week to complete it: Get the book, Think and Grow Rich, and read Chapter 1. Next week's episode will be dedicated to discussing this initial chapter.

The team examines the complex topic of real estate investment funds from a high-level and in the context of their real estate investment business.   (Transcript below.)   Ep. 6 - Raising a Fund for Real Estate Investment - Transcript   Ben Shelley: [00:00:07] Welcome to the Brick x Brick Podcast where we take you from the ground up on all things real estate. I'm your host Ben Shelley. We are fortunate to have Ryan and John back with us today. The focus of this episode is about raising a fund for real estate investment. As you begin to build your real estate portfolio and gain experience in the business the opportunity can arise to rapidly expand your operation by raising money from outside investors and utilizing an increased capital base to scale up your business and generate returns. For this discussion we'll take a deep dive into how real estate funds can be structured when might be a good time for you as an investor to consider raising a fund and how the increase in capital resource can help you upscale your business. Gentlemen let's jump right into it. John, why don't we start with you.   John Errico: [00:00:55] Yeah. So I think I want to take a very high level perspective on this to start with and then we can delve into some specifics. But just as a sort of perfunctory statement I think raising a fund like we're gonna be talking about is something that is not appropriate for all real estate investors and even kind of advanced or experienced real estate investors might not ever do or might not be ever interested in doing. And I'll explain why that is as we go on. But from a very very very high level perspective raising a fund is related to a previous podcast episode where we talked about real estate financing and how to get money for deals. So the way that Ryan and I generally get money for deals is on what I would describe a deal by deal basis. So we'll see a property - you can call it an asset for for this world. You'll see an asset and you say how can I raise money? Well I'm going to go to my investor friend or my partner and get money in whatever capacity and whatever structure I want to do for that specific property. If you don't want to do that for some reason so maybe because it takes a lot of time to do that or maybe because you have a lot of deal flow or maybe because you have such a large asset that it doesn't make sense to go to one individual person it may make sense for you to raise what what we are calling in this case a real estate fund. And when you do that you're entering into the world of what I would say is private equity. So a real estate fund is the way that we're using the term is a pool of money. It could be provided by a single investor. It could be provided by a bunch of investors. But normally or frequently in the real estate world or the private equity world the way that they're structured is you pool people's money together. The people who operate the fund are called the sponsors or maybe the general partners of the fund. They're paid a fee and they control all of the investments that the fund makes. So instead of going on a deal by deal basis and raising money you sort of do it all upfront. You say, "hey friend, I'm raising five million, 10 million, hundred million, a billion dollars and I'm an investor in this type of asset class in this strategy and I want you to put in money to this fund and let me manage it for you. I'm gonna do it for you." And so you might be familiar with companies like Blackstone or maybe Brookfield or maybe any sort of company that you like could jeez I wonder what they do you know kind of in the finance banking world. A lot of them are private equity companies and a lot of them raise humungous funds. A lot of times to buy real estate. So Ryan and I are in the midst of raising money for our first fund and the details of that and how it structure we can get into right now. But that's a very high level overview of kind of what the world is. Ryan, do you want to touch maybe a little bit on the why we in particular raising a fund as opposed to deal by deal?   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:03:40] Yeah. So that was a great summary of high level what a fund is. Now you may ask yourself why you would want to do that when what you've already been doing has been working with some degree of success. For us it became a matter of scale and we were at a point where we were wasting a lot of time, or maybe not wasting, but we were occupying a lot of our time with trying to line up investors on a deal by deal basis. And at the same time we felt like we were missing out on opportunities to buy other properties because we didn't want to have to go through that whole song and dance to raise maybe 50, or 100, or 150 thousand dollars because of the amount of time required to make that a reality. So the logical next step for us was to figure out something with a little bit more scale, which in this instance turned out to be this fund. So the impetus for this, or the logic here, is let's front load all of the fundraising. Let's front load all of the work so that over the duration of this fund we have discretion over the investments that we're going to make. And the moment we see something that we would like to act upon we have the resources to make it a reality. Now there are still plenty of opportunities to get creative and to borrow money or put some type of unique capital structure in place either on a deal by deal basis or by employing some leverage with the fund itself.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:05:15] But we are no longer beholden to finding a new investor for every single deal every time something comes across our plates.   John Errico: [00:05:23] And one aspect of our decision to raise a fund as well is the idea of diversifying returns and risk so we will have deals that come through our doors that range from extremely speculative, very high risk but hopefully are usually very high return to quite conservative, quite middle of the road, but correspondingly quite modest returns relatively, and some of those deals might be appropriate for certain types of investors. Some investors want to do really high risk. Some investors wanted to conservative stuff but if you're raising money on a deal by deal basis that investor doesn't really have the luxury of saying, oh I don't. It may be awkward to say I don't invest in this, you know, low risk, low yielding deal but I would want to deploy money more aggressively. It's hard to to say like well just wait a couple of months and then I'll have another deal for you. In the fund structure we can say look we're doing all of that together, it's diversified, right. So we're buying stuff that's really high risk and we're also buying stuff that's conservative. But the blended return to an investor is hopefully a healthy return at a risk portfolio that. Almost any real estate investor in this world would be happy to accept.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:06:38] One other benefit to this strategy or to the fund path for our investors is, you know, in comparison to let's say an equity partner who might be on a flip with us, that flip is only going to hopefully last six months, nine months, or 12 months. So it's a shorter term play and while the investor's rate of return on that investment on that single project may be quite high by the end of it, they get their cash back plus their profits but they're left with the same problem that they faced at the beginning. What do I do with this extra cash? They now have to find another deal, another quality deal, whether it's with us or somebody else, and they need to try to recreate those same returns. So the benefit to them in this scenario is they make this investment upfront, and while they may not have access to the cash for an extended period of time as depicted by the limited partnership agreement and as outlined by the fund itself, the benefit is that theoretical high rate of return is achieved on that capital from the point of inception up through the dissolution of the fund, which in this case is going to be many years down the line.   John Errico: [00:07:59] Yeah, that's true of the the fund structure that we are putting together. It might be significant to understand that there are many many many different ways to structure funds, real estate funds, even a REIT is a type of real estate fund structure, which is unique and has unique advantages and disadvantages. I mean even putting together money for a single deal you could think of it in a way as as a fund. And frankly it is subjected to the same legal requirements as even what we're doing. We're sort of talking about a fund in the very traditional private equity world of a fund. If you went to say Blackstone and said "how do you structure your funds?" they would be similar to the way that we are discussing structuring a fund. So as Ryan alluded to the fund structure is such that we raised money at the beginning usually within a small period of time and that money is essentially illiquid meaning it cannot be withdrawn from the fund, maybe your interest in the fund can be sold to another investor. But basically if you need the cash you don't have access to it until the fund sunsets. There are funds that are "evergreen funds" which are around forever but generally the most common option in what we're doing is a fund with a set time horizon so you invest money at the beginning, the fund invests that money over a - could be 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 year period of time - and in our case for doing a six year fund - invest that money over that period of time and at the end of that period of time the fund operators liquidate those assets either by selling them to potentially another fund or by selling them to buyers or refinancing out of them or doing whatever. But at that point all the money that you've raised is returned to investors and the investors will receive obviously more than the amount of money they've initially raised. And that difference is their return on their investment. And as Ryan alluded to before the if you sort of backdate the amount that they've been returned you can get a pretty healthy IRR, a pretty healthy yearly rate of return, for the amount of capital that was initially invested.   Ben Shelley: [00:09:57] So John you took us a little bit through there...   Ben Shelley: [00:10:00] The capital structure both of funds generally and specifically the fund that you and Ryan are raising now. I do want to get also into the fund raising process itself from your guys perspective, both your experience and also maybe strategies for potential investors transitioning to creating a fund, but just out of curiosity could you maybe also talk about whether it's yours or funds generally, the corporate structure. So if I'm an investor and I own real estate under multiple LLCs and I'm ready to take that next step, is there a specific way I should go about structuring my legal ownership of my already owned properties to take that next step?   John Errico: [00:10:35] Yeah, it's a great question and it's important to understand that underpinning or overpinning all of what we're discussing is a large legal apparatus and a large legal structure. Even to the extent of raising money for a specific deal which is something we discussed in a previous episode there is a legal structure that overlays that. And as Ryan was alluding to before, that's part of the time going through it because it's important to, for example, structure your purchase in an entity like an LLC. But to answer your direct question, funds are structured in a partnership model and partnership is - frankly not entirely sure of the current legal reason why it's done this way - but historically it has been done this way. You can think of it similar to an LLC. Basically there will be a pool of people that invest who are called limited partners and limited partners have certain enumerated rights and those rights might be things like the formation of the entity, the disposition of the entity, what happens if the the other partner is gone or dies. The other partner is called the general partner and the general partner will be the entity that controls the fund. The fund itself being the partnership. So if you're raising money for a fund, limited partners will be your investors, and general partners will be you or your entity and one of the great things about the fund's structure is that that general partnership can itself be its own thing. It can survive the lifespan of the fund and because that general partnership is making management fees, which are another component of the fund and making profit on the back end carry or carried interest after the fund is over, the general partnership can become quite lucrative and quite solvent and can go on to raise itself. Other funds. So when you hear these big companies, you say well how did Blackstone, for example, which is the largest, I believe, the largest private equity firm in the country, how does Blackstone operate? How does it become what it is? Well Blackstone, maybe through its subsidiaries, is a general partner in many funds and they make money by management fees and by carried interest. So if you want to build a real estate company that that sort of has a legacy that is beyond you as a person, this is one way to do it because you're not tied to individual assets, not tied to individual investments. You're really creating a business. A company that can survive and become quite large, you know, you can approach even an asset class that maybe right and I don't even know about yet commercial industrial whatever.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:12:56] John, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe one other ancillary benefit of the limited partnership structure is that the LPs are shielded from certain liability, right?   John Errico: [00:13:05] So similar to an LLC, the LPs are shielded from personal responsibility for the debts of the the overarching fund.   John Errico: [00:13:13] One counter to that is that when raising money from partners that are purely passive whether it be for a specific house specific asset or in a fund structure there are federal securities laws and even state securities laws that are significant. So most people that raise funds consult an attorney and frankly it's a very expensive attorney to set this up. In our specific case, I'm an attorney and my wife Shannon happens to be a private equity attorney which is a humungous advantage to us because we don't have to pay a very large New York City law firm to put together this private equity fund structure. But having said that most investors who are passive must be accredited investors which is a quite large burden for structuring deals or getting investors. We can get into some of the legal complications and aspects of it, iff you're just doing a single deal essentially raising money for a single property but in a structure where you have purely passive partners generally they're going to have to be accredited investors.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:14:14] And speaking to your point about creating a legacy and speaking to your point about why it is that we would want to start a fund, I think you hit the nail on the head when you brought up the Blackstones, the BlackRocks, the Brookfields, all of those players are behemoths. But at one point they started off in some capacity doing what we are striving to do today. And our secret sauce may not be the same secret sauce that they have. But at the end of the day, the value that these firms bring to the table is their ability to identify deals and investment opportunities and their ability to execute on those deals and investment opportunities. And while we may be playing in a different arena - we're not, you know, we're not raising a five or ten billion dollar fund, the thesis is still the same. And the underlying goal is still the same. It's to put forth a plan to execute on that plan and to make ourselves and our investment partners happy with the end result.   John Errico: [00:15:18] It's a great point in the way that I think of it as the difference between being an operator and being something else. So I actually love being an operator of real estate like I love just getting stuff done in the real estate space. However I think that the perhaps highest and best use of our skills is to one day no longer be just an operator but to be someone who sort of sits above it and controls the financing and gets money from people that we might even hire as operators. And that's what these humungous funds and companies do. So you are out there listening as an investor you know you are an operator right. You're the person, you're your boots on the ground. You're buying assets. You're doing the work. You're renting it out you're doing all that sort of stuff. The way to make the transition from being an operator to kind of the next level is the way that we found it is to be doing this fund. I think we're gonna be operators for a very long time. Because I actually love doing it but I also love the idea of building something that's bigger than just me or just on a deal by deal basis.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:16:17] This really hits close to home because day in and day out over the past six or so months I've seen the extent to which John really loves being an operator and I often find myself trying to prod him in the other direction and taking a step back and saying you know John you're you may love doing this and this may be very helpful in the moment but there's a bigger picture here and I think to an extent we're selling ourselves short by getting bogged down by some of these tasks.   John Errico: [00:16:48] So I think it prefigured the larger conversation you can have in this podcast about what it is to mature as a real estate investor. And I think we are I myself certainly am learning and struggling even with that transition at times.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:17:00] I think, the the way that I've thought about it over the last few months, is that we're trying to transition from being real estate investors and owner operators as you have specified before, we are transitioning towards becoming business owners who operate in the real estate space. Right. And what that entails is putting the systems in place and putting the mechanisms in place to execute on these strategies whether it's us or those who we put in positions to do so.   John Errico: [00:17:27] Right. That's a great way to put it.   Ben Shelley: [00:17:28] So when it comes to the fund itself what I'm curious to know from you guys and they think this will be a good way to to sort of wrap this conversation up is when an investor looks at any investment opportunity they're still weighing the similar risk factors when it comes to what's going to happen to my money. And so whether they're looking at a general S&P 500 or Nasdaq stock, a REIT investment, private equity real estate fund, they tend to look at similar risk factors and trying to make their decision of whether or not they should invest. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a pitch for Liberty Hudson, although it can be, but why should a individual investor invest in a real estate fund like you guys?   John Errico: [00:18:07] Well I think if you look broadly at the returns as you laid it out there are many many ways to invest money. If you look broadly at the returns that private companies generate it's outsized. It's much higher than you can get even doing I suppose doing very speculative stock trading maybe you can do some crazy things but you're investing in like an index fund or something moderately conservative investing private companies way way way a general outperforms that. As to why you would invest in a real estate fund specifically for me it comes back to faith in the asset class of real estate and what we do specifically is residential real estate. So faith in that specific asset class. I think if you look at all real estate and all of the country over the last 200 years or whatever it is has been real estate does not appreciate very well it appreciates maybe at inflation or something akin to that. However, if you look at certain pockets of real estate over certain times with certain investment theses it performs extremely well. So my pitch as to why somebody would want to invest in a private equity real estate fund would be that it's a way to diversify your portfolio in an asset class that has proven to be very high performing and that hopefully will outperform what you might be able to do were you to deploy your money elsewhere. And if you can find operators or fund managers that you trust and have demonstrated performance in the past so much the better.   Ben Shelley: [00:19:37] Ryan?   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:19:38] The way I think about it harkens back to what I was talking about before about this being a business. The two main focuses of the business are scale and efficiency and having an investment fund and having all of these funds pooled together makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts. So that scale leads to certain advantages in terms of efficiencies is in the sense that as a fund you are able to do things that as a singular investor you may not be able to do. You are providing a service to your investors and that service is returns. That service is providing an investment vehicle that would otherwise be unreachable for you as a solo investor. So if you are a wealthy professional, if you're a doctor, or a lawyer, an entrepreneur in a field other than real estate, and you have cash sitting around, more than likely the best use of your time is not to go and plunge a toilet or paint a ceiling or clean up someone's apartment after they just moved out and trashed your place. The best use of your time is what you are good at. What most fund managers and what most investment funds are good at are real estate investments - or investments in their specialized asset class. So for us we try to focus on that each and every day and we try to build a business around that core competency. And we try to open the door to others to kind of ride the coattails of that experience and that success.   Ben Shelley: [00:21:18] I know I appreciate this I know our listeners appreciate this and guys thank you for your time and your expertise as always.   Ben Shelley: [00:21:33] And thank you for listening to the Brick x Brick Podcast where we take you from the ground up on all things real estate. We will continue to bring you the best and brightest the real estate world has to offer as we leave no stone unturned in helping you the everyday investor. Thanks for listening.  

John and Ryan discuss an upcoming renovation project in Livingston, New Jersey. The two debate potential exit strategies and play out various scenarios. (Transcript below.) Ep. 3 - The Anatomy of a Deal in North Jersey - Transcript   Ben Shelley: [00:00:07] Welcome to the Brick by Brick Podcast where we take you from the ground up on all things real estate. I'm your host Ben Shelley. We are fortunate to have back with us today the partners of Liberty Hudson Ryan Goldfarb and John Errico. The focus of today's episode is a very common investors' question. How do I determine the highest and best use for my real estate investment. For this discussion the focus will be on the residential real estate market and we defer to our experts to learn their thought process on deal analysis, exit strategy, and everything in between. Ryan, why don't we start with you.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:00:42] Well I guess I would I would classify it as falling into two two departments so to speak. There is the financial viability and you know from a financial perspective what is the highest and best use of a property. And then there's also the zoning component. So you know anything in midtown Manhattan or any any plot of land is going to support the absolute highest density you can build on it. You know the value that we're in the middle of Manhattan. Real estate is super valuable here. So just about any play you would attempt in a place like this is going to pencil out. The main constraint that you're working within are the zoning conditions provided by the New York City building apartment or the New York City Planning Board, zoning office. I don't know what the jurisdiction falls under exactly..   John Errico: [00:01:28] Probably many multiple...   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:01:30] Seven layers deep so high level, that's how I approach it. When we're talking about things in the residential context specifically in a more suburban setting the subset of opportunities or the subset of options is going to be a little bit more cut and dry than it would be in a place like Manhattan. If you're in the middle of a residential neighborhood you're gonna be building residential. It's probably going to be a single family. The question is whether knocking that down and building new is the play or keeping the existing footprint and renovating that is the play. Or, keeping the existing footprint and then adding onto it as the play. So this is a question that John and I have faced quite frequently in the past and the more we deal with these types of projects the better idea we'll have of what the right candidate for the right solution is.   John Errico: [00:02:24] I agree I think something that I think about when approaching this topic is what if money was not an option and that's not true because money is always limiting factor as well as time. But when considering the highest and best use for property I envision it saying well what if I had a billion dollars. What would I do in this one piece of property to make the most money off of it or to to add the most value to it? And that sometimes you can come up with creative answers that you might not have anticipated before and if you really become convinced of that you might be able to find a way to to raise that amount of money. I'm thinking of for example in Atlantic City. So I've done some investing in Atlantic City and I'm very bullish on Atlantic City for different reasons but a lot of plays in Atlantic City are really ground up redevelopment plays so ripping down existing buildings and rebuilding them. And that is very, very... It takes a lot of money to do that. It takes a lot of time to do that. But hypothetically the value to doing that on a property and selling it as something brand new could be very high. I think perhaps we could get into this topic by addressing a project that we have right now which is in Livingston northern New Jersey. Ryan, maybe you can set the field and we can talk about it.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:03:41] So we're looking at or we're under contract on a single family house in Livingston. It's a split level home which is pretty common for the area. It's on a very quiet dead end street from an intangibles perspective it ticks every box. It's in a great school district. The block itself is pretty nice. And we're looking at an entry point based on our purchase price that makes a few different plays viable. So when we were looking at this deal we were contemplating a few different, a few different options.   John Errico: [00:04:15] I think just even as a baseline statement so this is a residential area. So building something other than a single family residential home as you said to your zoning issue is just, you can't do that at all.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:04:25] More than, like, I think the max we could do is probably two and a half three stories.   John Errico: [00:04:30] Sorry yeah. So yeah, in terms of, yeah it's gonna be a single family home. It could be multiple stores but it's not going to be more density than that. And I think I'm not sure if we even really seriously consider this but the idea of doing ground up construction is just not going to be economically viable.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:04:44] Yeah for that, for that size lot, I don't think we'd be adding enough square footage for it to make sense. And given the state of the existing structure, there weren't any compelling structural issues that would have made that more advantegeous.   John Errico: [00:04:58] We came to this conclusion by looking at other stuff in the neighborhood essentially.   John Errico: [00:05:02] So we we saw this house. You were familiar, you're more familiar with because you grew up essentially around the block and so we saw this house. We were familiar with what stuff generally sold for more or less in the neighborhood and so we said OK well this house could sell for this if maybe possibly it had X Y Z. And we sort of had a decision tree maybe wasn't as formal as that but we had a decision tree where we thought okay if we did x we could make this amount of money. If we did y we can make that amount of money. If we did whatever whatever whatever. So maybe it will be interesting to discuss what the decisions were that we kind of went down.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:05:41] And on the way there. Something else that is always worth bearing in mind is what's on the block. You know as nice of a town as that may be there's a ceiling on value. So if zoning would permit a 3,500 square foot or 4,000 square foot monster to be built on a block where the average house is 2,000 square feet that may not be the right place for it. So it's always worth bearing in mind that you don't want to over improve your property and you don't want to be going above and beyond what that street will support or what that area will support. So from a very fundamental level I think that that ruled out some of the more extreme options like knocking it down and building something brand new.   John Errico: [00:06:22] Yeah I think from our perspective to it just super risky to have to try to sell the most expensive property in the neighborhood, which could have been an option with what we were doing. But I think there's an adage in real estate like the cheapest property in the neighborhood will always sell. Doesn't matter what the economic macroeconomic environment is. And I think that the most expensive property will always have a hard time selling even when things are great. So we didn't go with the most expensive kind of option.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:06:50] Yeah right. So that was that was ruled out essentially from the beginning. So the two main options that we were considering at least once we saw the place and once we saw the current condition were option A going in renovating it with a similar floor plan in mind maybe modernizing some things maybe bumping...   John Errico: [00:07:09] So this is a three bedroom as it is now ranges on renovated it's a three bedroom two and a half bathroom property with a formal family room and even in what you'd call it...   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:07:20] A family room, a rec room, a den...   John Errico: [00:07:23] A den, a kitchen, and then like a living room, dining room esque area opening up until a fairly sized backyard with an attached garage.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:07:32] And an unfinished basement   John Errico: [00:07:34] Unfinished basement, right.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:07:35] So option A was to essentially keep that same floor plan in mind and just renovate it, update it, modernize it. Maybe contemplate a few changes like opening up the kitchen to the rest of the living space again to go for a more contemporary modern open style feel. But for the most part the footprint would stay the same and there wouldn't be any noticeable difference outside of the aesthetics of the property. Option B that we were considering was to add an addition above the current primary living area. So it's a split level home. If you're not familiar with that... The way to think about it is rather than a colonial or a cape where you have one floor with another floor mirroring it right on top, you have kind of like a half level between between floors. So you have the ground floor. Then you go up about a half a set of stairs to the main living area and then you go up another half a set of half a flight of stairs to get to the bedroom area. So for an addition, what we were proposing was to put up half, or a third, half staircase to go up to an additional half flight above that living room/dining room/kitchen area to put on a master bedroom and master bathroom. These houses were built in the early 1960s so they were built with a little bit different of -- a little different style. The master bedroom in those style houses are not significantly larger than the other bedrooms. There's no real fancy en suite with a walk in shower, soaking tub, anything like that. No double vanities. So the only way to to achieve that is to build it or to significantly alter the current landscape of the floor plan.   John Errico: [00:09:26] Our premise was as Ryan alluded to before this is a neighborhood of primarily families that have moved there probably for the school district or suburban living. It's not, in contrast to say, it's not you know, young urban professionals that are commuting every day to New York. It's not renters. I mean there are people who commute for work but it's not necessarily in a family in a family context. It's not renters it's not lower income housing per se. Generally, I would say, higher, upper middle class type of a neighborhood. So that alone would dictate you wouldn't ever make sense to say convert it to some massive two bedroom or something where each bedroom is humungous. But that might maybe appeal to a renter and it wouldn't make sense to convert it to like a seven bedroom property or something that might make sense for maybe a lower income area where density is more important. So we are sort of constricted of operating in the three bedroom or four bedroom type of realm which is what we think from the neighborhood appeals to families. You know, two bedrooms probably not enough. Anything more than four bedrooms is probably crazy, doesn't make any sense.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:10:36] Right. So The main goal we had in mind was to build something that is going to be appealing to the average family looking for a newly renovated house in that area. So with the current floor plan we were looking at three bedrooms, two and a half baths, which would certainly work for some. But if you think about the average family who's buying in that area, again, on average, you're likely looking at parents, two children, maybe a golden retriever, and it's safe to assume that if you're looking for a family home, you may also want space for guests, for in-laws, for parents for cousins, whomever. So with a three bedroom layout you are constricted in the sense that if you have one child or if you have like the only one that's going to work and if you have one child or two children who are sharing a room, which at that price point is probably unrealistic. So that put the idea of the addition in play because we could get that fourth bedroom.   John Errico: [00:11:34] Right... And so to use kind of actual numbers the way that we thought about it is our kind of purchase price is $400,000. That's what we're going into it for. We had thought that the after renovated value or sort of the market value after we were done would change based on how many bedrooms we had, based on how it looked. So in a three two and a half scenario which is the current default scenario I think we get maybe what...   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:12:01] Frankly it's hard to comp that out because it's a fairly unusual, most people typically want that fourth...   John Errico: [00:12:08] Which is another issue.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:12:09] Right. Right. So whatever the scenario or whatever the number would be it is most likely a discount to what the ideal scenario would be for.   John Errico: [00:12:18] So structure. Right. Would you just call it, say, we could get $650k or something. The logic that's going through our minds and we're looking at is OK we're we're in for $400k. And of that $400k gonna put a little bit of money down and we're going to borrow the rest which we're paying interest on. So every month that we hold the property we pay interest on it. The way that we are funding it is with a hard money loan. And that's quite high interest. Not credit card interest but not traditional mortgage interest so it's maybe in the realm of like 10%. So every month that we own the property we have to pay interest on that and then we might loan more than that because we need money to renovate the property. So we're paying interest on that every month or else paying taxes, insurance, utilities, general upkeep, you know making sure the lawn is cut and whatever else you have to, you know, snow removal, which is very expensive apparently. And so, so that's that we have to do that regardless of whatever we do with the property. The variable is how much does it cost to actually renovate it or expand on it. And that price difference quite substantially if it's, we're adding a floor or we're doing an extension in some capacity versus just doing an aesthetic renovation, which as Ryan was saying before was blowing out a wall, redoing the flooring, bathroom, kitchens, and then calling it a day. So the calculus is well if I put more money in to do the extension and then I make more money am I making even more money than I would have had I not done, done any of that at all. Say I'm gonna make $50,000 after I calculate all those carrying costs and also that the sale costs I guess I should mention too are substantial so there's broker fees, attorneys fees, transfer taxes, all sorts of stuff. After all that say if I'm making $50,000 by just doing aesthetic renovation and if I were to do an addition and have to spend $150,000 more but I'd still like to make $50,000 then I would never do that because that would take me six more months to do and I would just do the easier thing which is to do do the very cheap renovation.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:14:14] Right. And anytime you add to the scope in one way or another you're complicating things. The notion of you know keep it simple stupid certainly applies to real estate and certainly applies to flipping. If you can get away with doing a cosmetic renovation not necessarily going cheap or not necessarily skimping on the scope but rather than getting too fancy with it you can, if you can make money doing that, that is typically going to be your safest play. To John's point that calculus is is applicable and is I would argue that's the right way to look at it. Something else to bear in mind as part of that is you're not just thinking about you know if you're looking at scenario A you're talking about putting one hundred thousand dollars in renovation costs to make fifty thousand dollar gross profit versus Option B of putting two hundred thousand dollars into it to make fifty thousand dollars gross profit - the difference there is not just in your hard renovation costs. The difference is also in your soft costs which would be your holding costs, i.e. taxes, insurance, snow removal, utilities, etc. as well as your financing costs which is your interest for that time period that you are holding a project.   John Errico: [00:15:26] And the opportunity cost of your time. Time is very valuable when you're doing the sorts of things you have to spend eight months on a project versus four months in a project that's four months that I have to at least devote some amount of mental energy and physical energy to do.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:15:39] And from a qualitative standpoint there's also risk in whether your plans are going to get approved, and whether the exact scope that you have planned from day one is going to be approved, and whether they're going to be alterations required to the existing systems in the building.   John Errico: [00:15:53] And what is the market going to look like in eight months?   John Errico: [00:15:55] I may know what it's gonna look like in two or three months but eight months is a long time.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:15:59] Especially when you're talking about a specific time of year. So right now where we're sitting here in November and if we close on this property in the next week or so and we go with a pretty simple - I don't wanna say no frills - but if we if we don't get too complex with the renovation having this on the market in let's say six months is quite realistic and I would argue is almost an excessively conservative estimate. But nonetheless that leaves us in the spring season getting towards summer which is by most accounts the best time to be selling a property. Whereas if we try to pop the top off, pursue an addition, and potentially pursue an extension of some sort, there's a lot more volatility on the timeline side of things that may push us out passed the summer to sell the project.   John Errico: [00:16:46] To kind of like contextualize it to the actual thing that we're we're talking about are doing.   [00:16:51] We had thought well for us maybe the addition is the only way to do it because there really aren't any properties in this neighborhood that have three bedrooms two and half bathrooms and we may just really have a hard time selling it at all if we did it. Doing the addition was something that we were hesitant about doing because we worried about the building department and whatever else so we were kind of hemming and hawing about what can we do what can we do and then you actually came up with I think a great idea which is now most likely going to be the winning idea which I'll let you describe but essentially to get both right to have add a bedroom but not have to do the addition.   [00:17:27] Right. So the thought here was what does the end buyer in this town want. And in my head It's four bedrooms, minimum two and a half bathrooms, ideally three full bathrooms. And in thinking about that we had been stuck on this idea of doing the addition which would have required obviously a more exhaustive scope from a plans and permitting standpoint. It would have required additional framing. It would have required potentially addressing some structural issues with the existing building.   John Errico: [00:17:58] A ten thousand dollars steel beam apparently...   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:18:00] Not necessarily things that are of immediate concern but things that could potentially be a concern if you're talking about adding additional load to the building. Because if you think about it these buildings were spec'd out and were framed out and designed with a specific purpose in mind and that was to to function as a split level home. So if you're adding another level on top you're talking about adding additional weight to a structure that was not intended to originally support that. So there is potential that something like that can have to be addressed in the future not to mention, you know, just the hard costs of doing that actual renovation that actual additions which would be the framing, the plumbing, the electrical, HVAC, so on and so forth. So in contemplating this I was thinking you know the angle is really to get four bedrooms. Are there any other ways we could do that? Given the existing structure and giving given the existing floor plan... And I was thinking you know for for a family of four, the three bedrooms upstairs is not necessarily a concern. The bedrooms are all pretty decent size, pretty decent sizes and there are two full bathrooms up there already. And then there's also the family room downstairs. I know something that's common is to have kind of a guest suite or at least a guest room. And I thought that something like that maybe more of like a flex room was something that would be of substantial value there. So what we proposed was to build out a closet within the family room on the first floor. A closet is typically a prerequisite to being able to list a room as a "bedroom" notwithstanding a few other requirements like minimum square footage and oftentimes a window. So that got us passed the hurdle of trying to get that fourth bedroom. The next thing was thinking about it from a functional standpoint which would be you know if you have three people living on the second floor and then you have guests saying over... It's great that they have a guest room but they have to go up two flights of stairs to use the shower or to use the bathroom.   John Errico: [00:20:03] So to contextualize at the half bathroom that we have right now that the half in the two and a half is right next to the family room.   [00:20:10] Right. So the remedy to that was the half bathroom that John just mentioned, that abuts the family room. And then on the other side of that is a laundry room. So the thought is to combine the laundry room and the half bath to achieve a full bathroom on that first floor. We may be able to relocate the washer/dryer on that first floor as well but more than likely we'll move that to the basement, which, to compensate for the fact that we're adding a bedroom on that first floor and kind of getting rid of some of the utility space or the family space in that family room, we're gonna be finishing the basement as kind of a playroom, rec room for kids again with this young family in mind. And the great part about that is even though it's a basement there are some windows down there. There is some light. It doesn't feel totally basement-y. And once it's finished and has lighting in it it certainly won't. And most kids are not 6 foot 5 like John so they're not going to have an issue with the lower ceiling height.   Ben Shelley: [00:21:15] So I know we're going to have to definitely do a part one and a part two because I think I'm on the rollercoaster ride of my life right now. I think for people who know me they can't even believe I've been silent for this long but that's how good these guys are. Now we've already got a little taste of what this will be but as a book into this segment can you tell us what is your optimal exit strategy.   [00:21:35] Yeah, from a financial standpoint our goal all along is to have the largest gross profit that we can, to make the most money that we can from the sale of the property. So Ryan's solution is is so great and so elegant because we get to essentially have a four bedroom, three bathroom property which is what we were anticipating we would have if we were to make an extension, b we don't have to actually do any structural work. And structural work as Ryan was alluding to this is very expensive. So we can have an additional bedroom that is within the footprint of the property do a mostly aesthetic renovation to the property and still sort of have all the advantages that we would have if we're to spend a lot of money. So essentially our after return amount like a four bedroom, three bathroom, we could sell in the...   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:22:27] High sixes...   John Errico: [00:22:27] Sure. So we can have that sort of exit while only putting in maybe, a hundred grand in renovation costs. We'll see.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:22:36] Give or take.   John Errico: [00:22:37] Whereas I think to do in addition we're talking more in the realm of 200 grand. Yeah probably 175 hundred.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:22:45] I would say two hundred as a starting point. Right. And part of the reason for that is everything that goes along with doing it it's not just the hard costs.   John Errico: [00:22:52] So if it all works out we will have saved if you will one hundred thousand dollars which is a substantial amount of money on a deal of this size.   Ryan Goldfarb: [00:22:58] About a hundred thousand dollars in about six months of time.   John Errico: [00:23:01] Yeah, and a lot of effort and sweat and concern and stress and etc.   Ben Shelley: [00:23:07] Well if you took notes throughout this episode you're gonna have at least the base tools to understand and execute a proper analysis of a deal that you're doing particularly in Livingston but in wider New Jersey residential market. And I appreciate how you guys took us through all the different scenarios blowing the top off versus a general rehab and whether or not you would you just sort of cosmetic lift versus maybe some more serious work. I know I appreciate this I know the listeners appreciate it and guys thank you for your time and your expertise as always.   Ben Shelley: [00:23:46] And thank you for listening to the Brick by Brick Podcast where we take you from the ground up on all things real estate. We will continue to bring you the best and brightest the real estate world has to offer as we leave no stone unturned in helping you, the everyday investor. Thanks for listening.  

GOTTA CATH EM ALL! Welcome back to another episode of Nintendo Nostalgia! This week Ryan jumps in the drivers seat with our Pokemon expert John Miller. Jacob has to bow out of this one due to simply life, but the show must go on! So Ryan and John Radical Rex about the new Detective Pikachu movie trailer which made the perfect transition into the topic of the week. In honor of the new Pokemon games coming to Nintendo Switch it’s all about Pokemon The Original Animated Series. John and Ryan highlight the original first series that most of us grew up on back in the late 90s and early 2000’s they touch on the movies and a little bit of the Johto series. We’ll be back next week with an episode full of thanks!!!!

We are excited to have Ryan Cox, Principal at Founders Grove Capital, a real estate investment and advisory firm dedicated to helping clients select and manage real estate investments that work for them. Ryan is responsible for helping clients select and manage real estate investments so they can build a more secure financial portfolio. Ryan hosts The Real Estate Innovators Podcast and he is a real faculty for drawing out some of the inside baseball elements of the real estate tech world. When he is not hosting his podcast, he is the CEO of Founders Grove Capital! Tune in as we talk about... Multifamily Real Estate Investor Real Estate Technology or PropTech Design in Commercial Real Estate Block Chain Platform and much more! Learn more about Ryan Cox on The Real Estate Innovators Podcast and Founders Grove Capital VO: You’re listening to Raising Your Antenna, with host Keith Zakheim. Keith: Welcome to Raising Your Antenna. And I’m your host, Keith Zakheim. Today, we have a guest, Ryan Cox that wears many hats. Being that this is a podcast, and many of you, like me are podcast addicts, let me give you Ryan’s podcast bona fides first. Ryan hosts a real estate innovators podcast, in which he interviews some of the bigger founders and influencers in the real estate tech/proptech market. I guess Ryan, one of the things we can kinda talk about is what we call this industry because I’m hearing a lot of names for it: proptech, real estate tech, other things. But anyway, Ryan’s podcast is a great listen. And he’s a real faculty for drawing out some of the inside baseball elements of the real estate tech world. That I think is great gold or father for investors and professionals in the real estate and the real estate technology space. So anyway, definitely give a listen. But, when he’s not hosting his podcast, Ryan is a CEO of Founders Grove Capital, where he himself is a super successful investor and advisor to investors. So Ryan, before we get going and kinda get into the nitty gritty of our conversation today, maybe give my audience some of your background, professional background. And also specifically, you know, why you do the podcast. You know, is that kind of a personal passion. And also, how it helps your business from a marketing perspective. So anyway, welcome aboard and, yeah, it’s to you. Ryan: Well, Keith. Thanks so much for having me on the show. Excited to talk about a little commercial real estate tech, a little about my business. So, my background is, you know, I really, primarily, my primary business is to focus on multi-family value-added opportunities. So, my core business is as real estate investor and working with investors to buy multi-family assets here in the state of Texas. The podcast, as you said, is developed, I guess, primarily, out of a passion and some curiosity. So, I found it to be, you know as an investor, a really great avenue on a weekly basis to really dig in to all of the, you know commercial real estate tech that is developing around us. And the podcast has given me an opportunity, you know, really, a calling card to knock on any door and talk to founders about their background and unique insight that they had in their background to lead them to found a commercial real estate tech company. And on the podcast, I’m really just able to, you know, dig in what their background is, what unique insight, talk about the solution, how it benefits and impacts their users. And then try to suss out, really, just their insights from their work, about how they see the overall real estate market and that changing, and the impact of commercial real estate tech. I think the big driver for before the podcast is, you know, number one is I’m an advocate for my investors. So, I feel like it’s a priority for me to really be able to have a broad view of all of the technology that is, really, just starting to make an impact. But, I believe in the next three to five years, would dramatically shift the way that a lot of business in real estate gets done. So, I wanna make sure that I’m not flat-footed and that I’m being an advocate for my investors and paying attention to all the real estate tech that is transforming how we do business. I think.. Keith: You know, I, you’ve, again, being a listener to I think your last two episodes. I think you do a great job of listening that kind of feedback, and getting really down to the founder’s course to both your entrepreneurial side as well as your passion. Specifically, of this CRE-tech space. So anyway, I enjoy and I encourage my listeners to download it, become a subscriber, and listen cause it’s really, it’s a great listen. So, let’s dive in and my first question Ryan is that you know, where in, when I say we, I mean you and me from the marketing side are in the super-exciting space of what we call CRE-tech/prop tech. But, there are tons of applications found in the market. So, if that big data applications and, or you know spaces service as a business, virtual marketplaces and leasing tenant focus platforms, private management, augmented reality, and others. Clearly, some are getting more ink than others in space as a service comes to mind. But, as an investor and an advisor, I’m curious in your perspective. What are the exciting areas, that maybe somewhat under the radar right now. So you know, trying to bring somebody into a no-tell where we work. Okay, no big deal. Lots of money’s going there. That’s just aping what everybody else is doing. But, what are the areas, you know, applications that you think have the potential for real disruption, will attract early adopters, and in the next few years, where should the savvy investor who really wants to be part of the space looking to allocate money? Ryan: Well, first of all, I think that there are a ton of really interesting across, you know, like you said teantt project management. There’s a really, really quite a few interesting, you know spaces to play in CRE-tech. I think, as I think about the next two or three is we’re just so early. Especially regards to adoptions, it seems to me like the folks that are focused on data and that could be a cross-spaces as service, virtual marketplaces, leasing tenant project management and that stuff. The folks that are taken a data first enabled to monetize that early, enabled to give users actual data to make decision for that real estate investors, for lets space users, you know building owners. It seems to me like those folks are probably to the best start because there’s a value they can charge users afforded data. But, the collection of that data also gives them flexibility as they grow out, you know, the solutions that are provided to end-users. Keith: Yeah, we see for example both in CRE and also this residential real estate is, you know, a lot of these companies are multi-generational families that abound, you know, especially in the big cities, right. So, they own a lot of the office space, they own a lot of residential real estate, and they’ve been making money in this space for a long time. And as a result, the little more buttoned-up conservative, unless, willing to be early adopters. And we found with our clients, is that the case to be made at least initially, is surely an economic play, right. So, this is how you gonna be more efficient and save money. But, you know, how, what do you see is being the most partner-compelling arguments to, you know, CRE-tech as CRE-owners in order to get them to kinda take that first leap of faith into some of these, you know, applications and areas. And it could be, you know, big data which is maybe, there is some would have, you know, an easier, a leap of faith from data, the argument for efficiency and economic savings probably easier than making, also, I realized much more quickly. But, how do you advise your clients, or what do you see your founders in terms of being able to, you know, circumvent or achieve some of those obstacles? Ryan:Well, I think that from a founder’s perspective, you know, I think the venture community has great channels into, you know, big, you know, big brokerage. I would just definitely in avenue to get widespread adoption across a numbered users and geographies. I think that a lot of the bug development companies have their own adventure arm that you know, co-investing with the venture firms or looking to, you know, incubate and grow their own, you know, own kind of tech. So i do think that there are great opportunities with the right venture partner or being able to sit with the right investment or development company to help kinda scale the platform out. So. Keith: So, how are you looking for money for for example. It's not just about the money, but the strategic value that these investors can bring in terms of opening up new channels and helping with initial adaption? Rayna: Absolutely, the faster to market in adaption. I think is what you see in the re-work examples. They are just trying to raise the biggest, the best and have amass the monopoly. I think that the fastest routes to market, the more channels that you have to be able to deploy the product, the better your chances for success. Keith: Yeah that’s a great segue to the next topic I want to discuss, which is basis of service. And companies like re-work, and notel raising money on previously unthinkable valuations. I have a 2-part question. So, clearly, there is some type of bubble forming, and this not the first tech-vertical or general investment vertical to experience a bubble and there’s a lot of money-chasing deals and we work in (notel) just based on evaluations are clearly benefiting from all that money that’s on the sidelines looking to invest in this space. So, it’s 2 questions. You know, it’s not new what we work in (notel) are dealing, right. So, we just been around for a long time. Yet, we are left behind in the dust. These newer companies are gobbling up market share and their valuations are significantly higher. So, what’s been the drivers of their growth versus what we’ve seen in the past? And the 2nd question, Ryan, which I know comes up everywhere. Which is, you know, we work in (notel) have experienced, any other companies by the way just keep referring to these two, but they’ve experienced this growth in a real estate environment in which the market is just fantastic and also experiencing above all, right. What’s that gonna look like when there is an inevitable downturn. That’s what real estate is historically, so it’s not gonna continue and values are not gonna continue to appreciate and as I understand their business model which is, you know, leasing up a lot of space and being able to upsell that to tenants. What happens when, you know, values go down and their existing tenants can go lock in space for much cheaper prices. So, 2-part question: drivers of growth versus the history of the space as well as what it’s all gonna look like during an inevitable downturn? Ryan: Yeah, those are good questions. I don’t think anybody can accurately predict. But just some thoughts. I think, you know, running we were.. Keith: The beauty of being a podcast, of being a prognosticator, is that they only remember when you’re right and when you’re wrong, no one cares. So, that’s, you know, we can say whatever we want. Be Nostradamus, right? Ryan: Right. Well, if we were on video, everybody would be able to see me in my wizard hat. Keith: (Laughs). Exactly. Ryan: My answer here. I mean, (Ryan), we were cause undertaking the company’s taken a name as an approach to spending, investing heavily on growth, in hopes that profits will follow. I think, in the most likely scenario, is that, the thing that’s been driving growth in valuations for these companies will ultimately will come to roost. You know, right now, we’re in a growth at all cost negative gross margins. I think that we workers gotten so big that we’re seeing a lot more access to their data and, you know, right now, their focused on growth in a winner take all mode similar to some other tech companies we’ve seen at Silicon Valley. You know something , the ultimate challenge, so that goal is that if you can grow to a large size and create a market monopoly. Then, over time, you’re able to, you know, raise prices because you’ve got some sort of walk-in with those customers. I think the challenge right now in the current environment is that there’s so much private capital out there and so many entrepreneurs willing to take on big dogs. It would be a re-work at this case but people with. I think you need value proposition in a co-working space. So, on a venture capital people chasing, I don’t see right now that there is a monopoly in place. And then those companies are public, so you know valuations that can be tricky. Just a tricky area when we talk about private money. So, the question will be if there is a downturn and we’re not in a profitable place and that money dries up. How do you sustain growth or shift on a dime with your users to a profitable model. Keith: Yeah, for sure. I do, you know, so you mention Amazon and Amazon first of the 15-year run and they probably are the exception to the rule in terms of being able to early on stake-out they wouldn’t call a monopolistic position but certainly, 800-pound gorilla type of corporation. But, if you look at ride-sharing. So, a company like Uber tried to do that but the market was so large. The problems of executions are great and the amount of so much money on the sidelines willing to go into that space. Left has been able to significantly cut into their business over last few years with no one inside there. It seems to me also, the spaces service industry. The various entry are really just raising the capital. I mean, I don’t know there’s much secret sauce in doing that except for being able to sustain the losses initially and go gobble up property. So, it’ll be interesting to see how that shakes out and what it all looks like in a number of years but I know everybody in our industry is watching that closely and that will be interesting as we go forward. Ryan: Yeah, totally great I think. I definitely think the spaces services creating a value for large enterprise and small businesses alike. It’ll be up to those organizations to find a profitable, sustainable, long-term business model, which is yet to be proven. So, I think that there will be some, I think that there’ll be winners, I think that there’ll be losers. I think that there’ll probable even a few that rise to the top and are able to sustain there long-term. Keith: Alright. Moving on. Entrepreneurs and startups and certainly marketing agencies, we love the buzzwords. Alright, so, you can raise money and you can throw out terms like artificial intelligence or augmented reality or blockchain or cryptocurrency and figure out how to present your business plan and I think companies or startups are hoping that investors will follow that with investment. So, blockchain is a bit, is a buzzword that is being thrown around, our industry, the CRE-tech industry. We do a lot of work and energy and I thought blockchain is a fantastic application of blockchain platforms with application in the energy markets because energy in general’s becoming a lot more distributed and decentralized and blockchain is a fantastic application for industries that are going in that direction. We’ve seen a number of companies over the last 6 to 12 months that come to us and claim to have some type of blockchain application real estate whether that’s for raising money, whether that’s because it can cut out some of the soft-cost involved in transactions, whether it’s because of blockchain application will make shrink the timeline for these transactions. There’s a number of reasons why blockchain could be a good application in the real estate industry. Curious what your thoughts are as to what those applications are? Are you seeings things that right now are more substance and hype? Do you think at this point just more hype and people throwing around the word? What’s your take on all that? Ryan: I think there’s a lot of hype, I mean, blockchain is really just a lot of copies of a gigantic cell spreadsheet. So, I think that there’s some interesting possibilities for blockchain. Clearly, to the number of hands that have touched a transaction to potentially cut out intermediaries. I think that there are some regulatory things that need to happen as those boundaries get pushed. I think that it’s a move in the right direction but whether it’s blockchain, artificial intelligence, a machine learning, there’s a lot of entrepreneurs that are tackling that technology and trying to integrate it into their business and or their philosophy. When you talk to the technologist about where we are with those technologies and what they’re capable of doing, there’s somewhat of a sentiment that, yeah, the baseline is there but today they don’t function as they’re being promised or advertised as. So, I think that is commercial real estate technology is playing catch up to a lot of technology innovations from, maybe the past 15-20 years and that started to really grow inside of commercial real estate maybe in the past 5-6 years. I think that this group of entrepreneurs is in the right place and on pace or the slightly behind fintech or other spaces where they’re trying to develop the technology to truly make an impact. Keith: Yeah, we’ve spoken with a few companies recently who feel that blockchain and cryptocurrency solution will enable owners and CRE owners to have opportunities for liquidity and to bring in partners or investors in a way that they can’t with the current financial and legal infrastructure in real estate. So, that’s what, from what I understand from these companies, they think they can be deploying those solutions relatively quickly. It’s a proof in a pudding. Ryan: Yeah, I mean. Title company, all kinds of things, potentially make an impact or just we’re not there today. I think, we’ve got smart entrepreneurs that are working on solutions and are really trying to develop that technology to make it viable. And, where we are today versus where we’ll be in 5 years, is one of the reasons I have a podcast or I’m on this show, talking to you about it because I’m very interested in watching those developments and understanding how people are leveraging the technology and using that technology to change the way we work, live, play.. Keith: Yeah, so let’s talk about play. Another great segue, is Ryan, you’re a great host. So, when you’re the guest, you can do my work for me. That’s perfect. I wanna talk about apps and platforms and features that companies now are offering to enhance the tenant experience. It seems like a very millennial thing. So, in my company, we’re always kind of our executive team is always discussing. Alright, so, how do we make millennials happy, keep them productive, make sure that we’re able to retain them? And, I started my business 15 years ago, I wasn’t really having that conversation. It was more around, let’s just create professional development opportunities, make sure paying them fairly, and treating them with respect. But now, they want things that are gonna enhance their social experience, logistical experience. Work is now just not about work but it’s responsibility of companies and now it seems like maybe a building owner’s as well to provide a home-like experience or social experience, cultural experiences within the 4 walls of the workplace. Companies like Comfy, I've seen HQO, Office App, Equium. Again, they’re going out there and trying to convince owners and landowners that their responsibilities transcend just a physically-built environment. What’s been your experience in speaking either with your clients or with founders about the receptivity towards this? Who’re gonna be the early adapters? Is this just kind of like a fad right now but, we’re gonna eventually go back into haywork is work? What do you think on that? Ryan: I think that broader society is just moving towards more experiences whether that’s the bloomers who are moving out of houses then looking for less kind of ownership responsibilities to give them opportunities to travel, to go and do, to hop on an RV and go across America. Keith: I’ve got a 19-year old so we’re having these discussions which give me a little me more grey hair than I had prior. Ryan: (Laughs) And you know the 19-year olds in the same boat. How do I create more experiences, driven by a very different and very visual world with Instagram, Facebook, Social. It’s a ‘hey, what experiences are you having?’ And I think cause it’s less driven by the material. When I think about the specific applications that are going after a different experience in a work environment. I again think it comes back down to the channel. I think that the broad offering, well I guess, the appeal to many users will be more applicable if it serves out more as an amenity that people are able to choose from a la carte or a part of a package. Kinda like a TV dinner. Say ‘Hey, wanna be able to have access to all of these different applications to be able to create this experience in our work environment.’ I think that somebody’s applications are very niche. And so, if they’re not paying attention to the channel or how they’re partnering with other applications to create that experience could potentially be an uphill battle. But, yeah, I mean I think that experience-driven is what is driving re-work or notel or the other kind of space as a service. I think that when IBM is taking re-work space, it’s a very clear communication to the market that experience is valued and IBM’s one of all those technology companies out there so, it’s not just the startups, the millennials that are focused on creating that experience for their employees. Keith: Yeah, that’s a really good point. So, a lot of our listeners are themselves founders and entrepreneurs. I thought maybe, we’d just end, Ryan, with just your observations of the common denominators between the companies and founders that succeed, those that don’t. That really can be anything from leadership skills to how to manage money, to operations, to figuring out audience, marketing. Whatever the case, but I got a thought that your advice would be compelling to the people listening. Ryan: Yeah, I think that those with a good product and user experience. I think about some fintech apps, like Robinhood. When Robinhood comes to mind, it’s like very easy to use, it’s very visually appealing. So, I think that applications that are focused on great user-experience. I think that have some sort of data or value that they’re able to charge customers from Day 1 increase sustainable profitability. And I think that just have really low overhead, low volume kinda revenue targets to keep them accountable to grow. I think that they’re gonna have, those that start with that business model will have early adapters that are potentially more forgiving of the product, that are able to receive feedback, to really shape the product, to listen to customers’ demands and pay attention to their roadmap in a unique way that keeps them from over-building or steering the roadmap in a direction that is actually not a demand or want on their customer base. Which is, back to my earlier talk, was those that are due to a really good job of aggregating and creating actionable data, will be able to build off that data in a meaningful way, and create a roadmap that is really impactful for their users. Keith: That makes sense and I think for every founder and businessman and entrepreneur, what Churchill always said to his people, ‘Keep buggering on KBO.’ Just gotta stick with it, right? And, there’s gonna be lots of ups and downs and challenges. But, if you believe in your vision and you believe in your product and believe in your ability to execute, then you gotta keep going. Certainly, until the bank account says zero. So, with that Ryan, I think we’ll end there. Was there anything else that you wanted to add or tell our listeners? Ryan: I guess the one thing I would add is I am co-hosting a commercial real estate tech event in Austin on October 25th. We’ve got a great panel of tech founders that includes Michael Mandel with ComStak, Arie with WiredScore, Ryan Turner with Refinery, and Doug Shenkman with Tenax. As well as a panel of venture capitalists from Fifth Wall, Navitas, and Metaprop. So, it would be a great event downtown Austin with food and drinks and some great founders and venture capitalists to give you much of the same conversation about the state of the world of CRE Tech and the state of the market, and what’s coming up. Keith: And I will be there. So, if that’s, if you wanna scream that from the rooftops as well, enables you to add one more person to the event, feel free. Maybe, if you tell enough people, my mom will come as well, if I’m gonna be there. But, Ryan: We’d love to have your mom. Keith: It’s an exciting event, I will be there. I’m gonna be travelling from New York to Austin for it. And, goodluck with that. I guess, I’ll see you there, Ryan. So, thank you for being our guest today. And just again, for our listeners, Raising Your Antenna is a podcast dedicated to bringing on venture capitalists and founders who are transforming B2B technology spaces including today’s CRE (Commercial Real Estate) technology. Antenna Group which is the primary sponsor of Raising Your Antenna, is a digital marketing and public relations firm which services companies from startups all the way to Fortune 100 companies that are in the B2B technology space. So Ryan, thanks again and look forward to seeing you in Austin. Ryan: We all look forward to it. Thanks, Keith! Keith: And another episode of Raising Your Antenna is in the books. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode and look forward to connecting again next week. Raising Your Antenna is a weekly podcast hosted by yours truly, Keith Zakheim, that features the movers and shakers, and key influencers of the B2B technology industry. Our guests are leading revolutions and disruptions in the mobility, clean energy, healthcare, and real estate technology industries. Raising Your Antenna’s brought to you by Antenna Group, a full-service digital marketing and public relations agency that focuses on the B2B technology industry. Please be in touch with me on Twitter (@czakheim) with any feedback about this podcast. And check out Antenna Group at www.antennagroup.com if your organization is looking for really smart and good-looking marketing and public relations partner.

This week's show is with Ryan Simbai Jenkins, who was born and raised in Papua New Guinea to a medical anthropologist mother and professional musician and photographer father. He's a U.S citizen but has lived in France, Bangladesh, Australia, The U.S.A, Cambodia, Thailand, The Netherlands and Spain He attended the Duke Ellington High School for the Arts in Washington D.C and later the Rotterdam Conservatory (CODARTS) in The Netherlands to study music. During a particularly stressful period in his studies, he injured his hand while performing. After a long period of attempting to heal the injury through more conventional therapies, he learned self-hypnosis and almost instantly totally recovered his ability to play music! This led to an intense fascination and deep study and practice of meditation and self-hypnosis, NLP, coaching, different psychological modalities and diverse fields of personal development. His love of this field comes from the profound personal transformations he has experienced in his own life and those of his clients. He currently runs a hypnotherapy/change work practice in Barcelona Spain where he has lived for the last 7 years and is explores the boundaries of performance, therapy and coaching with people from all walks of life. In this conversation, we spoke about the incredibly fascinating topic of 'innate wellbeing'. It's something that's spoken about a lot in various spiritual and rewilding communities I've been part of and of course, is very much something that we're pointing to with our work at Primal Happiness. So Ryan and I dived deep into what 'innate wellbeing' really means, what's true about it, and what's not. This was such an interesting show - with so much food for thought!

The Grammys! We were pretty spoiled in 2016, a lot of big names dropped music last year. So Ryan makes his debut with me, to reflect and talk about the year that showered us with hits from Adele, Beyonce, Drake, Bieber, The Weeknd, Chance, Kanye and so many more. We also get into the chances of a heightened anti-Trump award show, music we look forward to in 2017 and play a game we like to call 'Who's more likely to...', let's get funky!

In this edition the WTD Team begin discussing their thoughts around the church, homosexuality, and the recent Kim Burrell sermon (if you haven’t seen the sermon you can watch it here). As always, Ashley and Elijah do most of the heavy lifting while Ryan forgets to un-mute his microphone. So Ryan tries to interject his thoughts, but from a much quieter standpoint! If you wanna get at us you got options: Website: wetalkdifferent.com Email: holla@wetalkdifferent.com Facebook: facebook.com/wetalkdifferent Twitter: @wetalkdifferent You can subscribe to the podcast in iTunes, SoundCloud, or Stitcher. Please leave a review on iTunes as it helps surface our podcast to other listeners.

Heyang: A 16-year-old British teenager has made more 64 thousand US Dollars from a website she made to give Chinese babies English names. What is the business model?Ryan: Oh My Lady Gaga, let me tell you all about it! Beau Jessup, a British A-level student from Gloucestershire, came up with the idea after a family visit to China. They were out for a meal with friends when she was asked to give an English name to a newborn baby. Her website which she has now is titled 'Special Name', in which she assigned personality traits to each English name. Users are charged 60 pence or one USD to use the five-minute service, to ask users to pick five of 12 personality traits which they hope their baby will display, before it presents a shortlist of three names. It also provides examples of famous people with the same name. So basically, you get the idea, this lady is helping people choose their names. Now, when I look at this, I think it’s ridiculous, (Heyang: Why is it ridiculous? There is a need.) You need not to be lazy people, I mean even like parents in the US, we use baby books, like I know my father picked my name because he wanted to get in touch with his roots. So Ryan is I believe Irish or could be Welsh, and then every male in our family, our middle name is William. You know William is always present in one of our names, either the middle or the first name. So I mean the thing is picking a name should be your thing that you share with your child, that special connection that you gave to them. Now Beau Jessup from Gloucestershire, England, and you know I just think it’s a little ridiculous, but at the same time, some parents in China have picked names like Rolex, oh…Heyang: I had a classmate called Ferrari in the UK, and he’s from Hong Kong. For some reason, I thought it fitted him pretty well! I remembered one day the teacher announced that this person is late again, and terrible grades, Ferrari! And then the whole hall of people…filled with laughter. Yuyang: I don’t know, some Chinese parents choose some funny and weird names. It’s not lazy, I think it’s just they don’t know the proper cultural meaning behind the name. They choose name like Willow and Stone, Candy or Love.Ryan: But at the same time, why won’t you research, why would you just kind of carelessly say ‘Ok, Stone, cause I like stones, big stones are good, so let’s name it stone.”Heyang: Oh Ryan, let me fill you in on this. Chinese parents don’t… I mean they pay a lot of attention, or the individual pays a lot of attention into the English name that they wanna hold (Ryan: apple, banana), and with Stone, probably because (Happiness) his Chinese name has got the name of “Stone” in it. And then I know a girl who’s English name is Pearl, it’s because her Chinese name is ‘ZhenZhu”.Ryan: But I think actually Pearl is actually you’d see some people with that English name. Heyang: But she wouldn’t know that connotation that attached to that English name if she’s from a different culture. Ryan: Well I thought about these guys, you know it’s like how can I judge this without giving my two cents, and people judging me for the names that I would choose for my kids. And you know I thought of some names, and here’s for the males, and you ladies can totally criticize me ok? And our listeners. But I chose Conor, cause it’s like a very Welsh I think, around that area. Roran, I really like Roran. Kale, that’s a strong name. For ladies, if I had a daughter, I would name her Madeline, I think it’s a very beautiful name, or Dominique. So those are my two cents instead of some of the other names, you know like we have mentioned, like Happiness, Smile, Banana, Love. Heyang: Woo, or Precious! Yuyang: Woo, it offers me some inspiration as well. Maybe we should set up some Chinese naming website to help foreigners get Chinese names. So Ryan Price, do you want a Chinese name? I can find a much better name than “莱恩 普瑞斯”, if you give me ten yuan. (Heyang: Only for ten yuan? You should totally sign up!), no as the starting point of business. Ryan: You know, she’s making a really good point here Yuyang, you have pointed out something I was thinking about when I was looking at this. (Is) you know there’s very creative ways that people have yet to find to make money. I mean this girl made 64000 US dollars which she will use to her college. Even then, she’ll be going to a really good college, cause that’s a lot of money to be paying for your education. But still, with something as so simple as giving a name in a…What was it? A five minute process or something like that? I think it’s very impressive and creative how people can find ways to make money nowadays. It’s my two cents here. Yuyang: It’s quite inspirational you know, the girl just wanted to do it, just to see if an idea could turn into something more than just a simple idea, and to become more than just a small project. It’s a nice surprise it turns out. Heyang: Yeah all of that can be done in a website and connecting people from two completely different continents. And actually it’s filling a demand that is very real for today’s Chinese people. Because for various reasons, people want that English name. But I’d say, my Chinese name (Ryan: Candy?) is Heyang, and I’m very proud of that.

So Ryan, Greg and James ventured to Minneapolis to see the MST3K Reunion Show, and man was it a fun weekend! We met and chatted the entire cast of MST3K plus new Text Experiment Jonah Ray, went on field trips to the Blue Sun Soda Company for a livecast “Mini Soda Review,” as well an an excursion to the old HQ of Best Brains, Inc, where the original series was produced. Best part of all was meeting so many fellow MSTies, old friends and new, and reuniting all over again. (This podcast does not represent Alternaversal, Shout Factory or the Kickstarter campaign in any official capacity). EDITOR’S NOTE: In June 2019, this podcast merged with the Damn Dirty Geeks Podcast and became The Damn Dirty Drive-in. These are our classic back catalog episodes, dating back to March 2016. Please enjoy! The new Drive-In podcast opens for business with original sketches, movie discussions, interviews, weird food tastings and more at Episode 168.

Unclasp your briefcase. It’s time for a showdown. In competitive debate future presidents, supreme court justices, and titans of industry pummel each other with logic and rhetoric.  But a couple years ago Ryan Wash, a queer, Black, first-generation college student from Kansas City, Missouri joined the debate team at Emporia State University. When he started going up against fast-talking, well-funded, “name-brand” teams, it was clear he wasn’t in Kansas anymore. So Ryan became the vanguard of a movement that made everything about debate debatable. In the end, he made himself a home in a strange and hostile land. Whether he was able to change what counts as rigorous academic argument … well, that’s still up for debate. Produced by Matt Kielty. Reported by Abigail Keel Special thanks to Will Baker, Myra Milam, John Dellamore, Sam Mauer, Tiffany Dillard Knox, Mary Mudd, Darren "Chief" Elliot, Jodee Hobbs, Rashad Evans and Luke Hill.  Special thanks also to Torgeir Kinne Solsvik for use of the song h-lydisk / B Lydian from the album Geirr Tveitt Piano Works and Songs

2015-11-23 Could the JaYoe World Tour be dealt another deathblow? I took the 20kgs I was able to isolate off my load back to Ningbo, hoping this would be the solution to help me overcome this problem with my knee... but unfortunately the doctor saw something that cannot simply be fixed by a reduction or weight, and needs some real time off the road. So Ryan and I put our heads together and decided to be as productive as possible with enforced down time.

So Ryan and Mikey are moving forward in the WWE Championship Tournament bracket (a bracket you can predict the results and win), and everything looked good, until the end. Make your CONTEST PREDICTIONS at https://challonge.com/ByeDrew and make sure you follow us on Twitter so we can message you when you win! Twitter: @HitTheBooksPod (https://twitter.com/HitTheBooksPod) Instagram: hitthebookspod (https://www.instagram.com/hitthebookspod/) (https://twitter.com/HitTheBooksPod) Subscribe to our Youtube Channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPTuiysHeGf03_rSih6yj5g)Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hit-the-books-realistic-wwe-fantasy-booking/donations