Podcasts about so michael

Seeing both the high cost of property and all the institutional capital pouring into markets across the country causes many individual investors to worry about being pushed out of the market by the "big guys". In this episode, we address this concern by looking at the pros and cons of institutional activity in the real estate market. --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Tom: Greetings, and welcome to The Remote Real Estate Investor. On this episode, I'm going to be joined by   Emil: Emil Shour   Michael: And Michael album.   Tom: And today we're going to be talking about a trend over the last couple of years where a lot of money is flowing into the space specifically of single family rental investing specifically from about from larger institutions. So today we're going to riff give our opinions on what's good about it, what's bad about it, what are some advantages that they have, versus us as individual investors, and so on. So Alright, let's go ahead and jump into it.   Awesome. So before we get into the topic of hand of discussing institutional capital coming into the space, I feel like it's been a while since we've checked in with each other on what is going on with our own portfolio and all of that good stuff. So Michael, I see you nodding your head on the video screen. So I'll let you, that is your trigger for you to go first, what's what's going on. I'm Michael album, portfolio life world,   Michael: Right on, so a lot of different moving parts. So in the in contract to sell a 12 unit mixed unit property that I own with a partner, we were planning on keeping it as a long term buy and hold, but the market went crazy. And it's kind of a headache property anyhow, so we just said, oh, let's sell it. So we're making a decent profit on that and we're 1031ing it and I'm buying I have a contract, I have a property under contract out towards the east coast further east that I've invested before for a short term rental, and then I have some additional capital that I need to place as part of that 1031 as well. And then I'm also in the midst of two flips and so I have one actually under contract for sale   Tom: Where you think of a parking that the the 1031 proceeds,   Michael: Some of its going to be out in Tennessee, and then for that short term rental, and then I've got to find I gotta find some some place for the rest of it. So if anybody has any great suggestions, I think there's about $100,000 that needs to get placed.   Tom: Nice more multifamily mixed use stuff.   Michael: I'm not sure I think for that piece of it I'll probably just do a single family just go buy a single family all cash somewhere. That's the plan as of now and then I've got two flips underway or the construction is completed so I have one that's actually being sold on roofs currently it's under contract and then I have another one that is should be getting a lease signed any day now and that'll be sold through stock as well with a tenant in place.   Tom: Awesome.   Michael: So all kinds of moving parts.   Tom: Nice Emil and yourself.   Emil: So I don't remember my last update but I think I was talking about the the triplex we had the one bed one bath and getting ready to be renovated or just repaired, renovate whatever you want to call it. So we finished that ended up you know, there was a bunch of the tenant before was a smoker so we had to like do a couple coats of paint and a lot of patching to be done. We ended up replacing the kitchen cabinets and a bunch of loose ends here and there on the inside and outside of the property. So that just wrapped up and so my property manager is marketing that to be rented right now.   And then this triplex was actually a four plex converted into a triplex so one side is like a stacked one bed one bath. The other side is like a townhouse two story that tenant just left the other month which is actually great because it's a three bed two or one and a half bath. So the rent is probably a couple 100 bucks under which can be especially with the market rent starting to go up a lot recently. So we just approved a bid from a contractor yesterday and we are about to get underway making repairs there and getting ready to rent out so that'll probably be another four to six weeks if I had to guess.   Michael: Nice   Tom: Nice on actually guys I'm kind of in a in a boring position I which is always a good thing as a remote investor like boring is good. So I am actually so I did a couple of cash out refis with the great rates all that good stuff and right now I am in recording in my office which is our extra bedroom but we're in the not too distant future going to have another baby moving into it. So I'm losing my office space and these days it's really important so my real estate you know activities is more around, building a little To do shed on my lot, so I there's a lot of really cool prefab companies that that do this kind of stuff. So going through that rigmarole of hopefully the Contra Costa County Planning Commission is on the call of debating around permitting it or not, I mean, it's not going to have what you call it like plumbing or anything, but it will have electrical.   So basically working through contractors and site planning and kind of working on that type of fund development. But I think there's probably some real sweat equity to have like within the house that I'm at now adding an extra, you know, detached little office. So hopefully I get my money back. And some at the point which I decided to sell my place talk.   Michael: Totally.   Emil: I've been wondering about those, Tom, do you so you have to like, you have to get some type of permitting or approvals for the prefab stuff that doesn't have any plumbing, like I thought they just came in kind of like, set it down. And you're good to go.   Tom: Yeah, I mean, I think that the city would want you to permit it. The from in talking to my contractor where you can get yourself in big problems is related to zoning and like setbacks. So like, let's say I build this, and I don't get it approved. And then for whatever reason, either they find out or come, if the building is doesn't have the proper setbacks, and they can make me rip it down. But if they don't, they just might never approve it. I could be talking out of my bottom. And hopefully we had the right disclosures at the top of the episode. These are all opinions, not necessarily facts.   But you know, I'm making sure that I'm nailing the zoning stuff, right and doing it if I decide not to necessarily to permit this this little unit, you know, I don't know, the I mean, the other consideration is permitting, so I sit when I when I sell it like it has that, but kind of funnily when I looked at a house earlier, maybe like two years ago, they had a little unit and I didn't ask if they were permitted. I mean, I guess maybe I should have, but I think the bids were still competitive, taking that in consideration that, hey, this is up and working as a an additional outside office.   So I don't know, we'll see if anyone would love to comment on. Should Tom try and permit his little studio shed that would be greatly appreciated.   All right. Back to the topic at hand. And I this is this is a great, Pierre, excellent idea for an episode today. So the question is, are institutions so big private equity that's coming in buying single family homes? Are they crowding out? individual buyers, such as ourselves, and the way that I think I love to shape this conversation is to give kind of an equal measure, looking at both both sides of the table as an investor, I think, with other people in the space, it's it can be sort of a double edged sword. And I'd love one of you guys I'd love for… Michael, why don't you lead us off on this discussion in talking about as an individual investor, you know, how do you see institutions, helping you not helping you in just kind of in the ecosystem of the single family space? Go ahead and lead us off.   Michael: So I think I'll start by talking about the positives, first by some of the real benefits that we are likely to see if not seeing already from ibuyers institutions coming into the space. So for one is institutions don't make it their business to let properties become dilapidated. So they'll often buy properties and then fix them up with a lot of capex, make them nice. And so if I'm invested in that same market, or even better in that same neighborhood, my property is likely going to be seeing a lot of appreciation, because these other properties in the area are being brought up to snuff. And maybe even nicer than my property,   Tom: Not just appreciation, probably rent growth as well, I might be stealing your next bullet point. But I think that's really tightly that you're seeing the benefit from.   Michael: Wow, Tom. I had my linear path and you just cut me off at the knees.   Tom: I know I'm, that's what a good leader of the episode does is just tear down other people go ahead and   Emil: Take all the glory for himself.   Tom: That's right. That was a good idea Tom.   Michael: Last time I share episode notes with you. So I think that there's there's neighborhoods that are being that are being improved greatly. And I think that there's a misnomer and a common misconception when people hear the word landlord, or property owner and it's so somebody owns a slumlord. They let it become dilapidated, a lot of deferred maintenance, leave Park cars on the lawn type of thing. And so these institutions are in the business of making a return and are I think, likely in it for a longer period of time, then then some, mom and pop landlords. And so they are injecting capital into these markets, serious capital into these markets, and a rising tide raises all ships. And so if you happen to be investing in those same markets or have previously invested in those same markets, that can be a real big win.   Tom: I like it, I'm able to do without any other initial commentary?   Emil: On the on the pro side or the con side?   Tom: I'm gonna let you take get where you want, you know what also a good podcast leader it gives…   Michael: Flexibility   Tom: …to take my fellow co host, explore the space, take it where you want.   Emil: Okay. All right. All right. So I think it's one of those things that it just depends on on how you look at the world, I think they do a good service in that they provide a floor right back in 2010 2013, when prices just kept going down and down and down. That's when institutional investors came in and really created that bottom and started scooping everything up. And like Michael said, fixing up a lot of these distressed homes, bringing them up, bringing them up to code, whatever, making them nice and converting them into rentals.   So I think I think the same thing can be said, Now you have a lot of institutions who are interested in the space, they create a price floor for us, mom and pops. So that's good. I think it gives you some reassurance that this is maybe a more mature asset class than it used to be that there's a lot of money waiting on the sidelines. So if things go down a little bit, you know, it's not going to crater as much because some institutional money could come in and again, create that price floor. So I think that's one of the positives.   Also, you know, I remember reading these headlines, like, no one really providing data is kind of just anecdotal hearsay stuff. And so there's this Vox article that I just pulled up. Let me let me pull some stats from this. So this is from Laurie Goodman, who is vice president, vice president for housing finance policy at the Urban Institute. One of the things she mentioned is that as of 2019, institutional operators owned just 300,000 single family units. So you know, I know they're, they're putting more pressure to buy now, but you can just see there's such a small percentage and for context, researchers point out that there are roughly 15,000,00 1-unit detached single family rental homes in the United States. So a very, very small fraction are still owned by these institutions. So I think it makes all these you know, salacious headlines.   But if you dig into the data, they're really not scooping up the lion's share of properties. It's still owner, occupants, Mom and Pop investors. So I think a lot of it was you know, clickbait headlines trying to get people to outrage. You know, outrage sells. So I think that was part of it too.   Michael: That's, that's a great point. But I also have to ask, Do you have one of those like Word of the Day calendars on your desk, because salacious is not a word that I've ever heard you use before? So curious to know if it's part of your daily lexicon?   Emil: No, Michael, it just came to me as I was exploring the space that Tom had asked me to explore. So, you know, sometimes I'm a learned man, and I use words like salacious. So leave me alone, okay,   Michael: I should explore spaces more, that's on me My bad.   Tom: So I'll add a couple of more points in the pro column as it relates to institutions coming in. So one of them is I love your point of meal about providing a price floor, I mean, in you know, family friends talking to me, Hey, aren't you concerned, if there's a huge, you know, drop in the value of the homes, it's like, no, like, so the rents stay fairly stable, just because they move very slowly, because they're on long contracts. And as a basic function of looking on what the return is, with the institutional money that's out there, they're going to pick up whatever you know, goes to sale, if it's below a certain dollar amount. So I think the the place price floor is really important.   The other is the liquidity aspect. So I'm sure and I've received a lot of different mail and you know, from like, OpenDoor, and some other like bigger companies coming in the space, maybe Open Door isn't isn't a great example, just because they're buying just to sell it, they're not necessarily long term buy and hold. But what they are providing is more liquidity if I needed to move pretty quickly, either on a 1031, or whatever.   The other aspect that I didn't hear talked about by you guys is better information on analyzing markets. So when with the institutions getting involved, they have a lot more data that makes sense in like a single place. And there's great research folks out there like John Burns, if you haven't looked heard of him, please look him up. He's, he's been on the podcast before. He's sort of like the the economic thought leader in SFR space and puts out these reports with tons of really good information on markets on like the top 50 or so markets. And a lot of that is made possible by the aggregation of data. So as a buyer, individual buyer, when I'm looking at potential markets to buy in, I'm going to have a lot more color on the type of return profile by these different markets because of the aggregation of the data on those institutions.   So I think that's been another boon or benefit of just kind of the lights being turned on. With regards to these different markets where there's good institutional concentration to be able to see what what, you know, how they're how those are performing.   Michael: So are you suggesting like to ride the coattails kind of of the institutions that have Hey, if there are these big institutional players going in? It's they've clearly done their homework, it could be a great market to invest in?   Tom: Yeah, I think that's definitely can be a strategy to do in like, you know, exactly like you said, these other people that are doing their homework and, and honestly, though, if you want to avoid that you can just buy in smaller markets, because a lot of these institutions are only going to find them in these Class A, for the majority of them, and maybe some class B, I guess, or when I'd say Class A Class B, I'm thinking more market size. I don't think I'm using the right verbiage, but like   Michael: Tier one,   Tom: So like the tier one. Yeah, exactly. Like the Dallas market versus some smaller markets, there's going to be less institutions that you if you do want to avoid them. But all right, let's go ahead and continue and continue the conversation. I'd love to hear some thoughts around negatives, with institutions coming into the space, Emil, why don't we change the order up? Why don't you go ahead and lead us first?   Emil: I'm just gonna have to point to anecdotal stuff, right, like a an institution. And if you know your to believe these headlines, and these articles that are saying institutions are coming in I buyers are coming in and way overpaying for properties. That could be the case, right? That could be one negative, maybe they don't know the market as well as you know, your eye who is looking at the same market every day for years, right? And we know what an appropriate prices, they could come in, and they just have a lot of money. You know, they're looking at an investment in like a five year maybe 10 year time horizon. And they're like, Oh, won't matter. 5-10 years, we think it's gonna go up X percent. So we want to win as many properties as we can we have a lot of capital you want to deploy, so let's just throw a lot of money. So that could be one of the negatives is they're coming in, and they're willing to out pay your eye. So that I think is the biggest negative when you see things like this.   Tom: I like it. Yeah, deep, deep pockets too tough, too tough to beat out that beat that out in acquisition. Michael, go ahead.   Michael: Yeah, I think just to echo what Emil was saying. I think one of the reasons it's so difficult than they're able to overpay so much is one because it's not necessarily their money, so to speak. Like they have investors money they're playing with is other people's money. So there's, there's a bit of an attachment there. And then also they have access to death facilities, or if they are borrowing debt, they're able to do so at a much cheaper rate than then you were I. And so they're playing kind of with a different set of rules, trying to play the same game that we individual owners are applying. So that makes it really difficult to compete.   And then also Emil, like you mentioned that that price floor, I think that that can be perceived as a negative to if someone is on in a purchasing mode or purchasing phase. If I'm waiting for a downturn, or I'm waiting for a market correction, and there is a blip on the radar minor correction, these institutions might swoop in and prevent the prices from falling to a place where I might want them to be or need them to be in order to get involved into the game, or investing in real estate. So I think it's both a pro and a con, depending on which side of the equation you are, if you're already an owner, or if you're a potential buyer, that could be perceived as a real con.   Tom: Pierre I'd love to hear how you came up with this as a topic, I'd love to hear your your thoughts on either side of the coin pro or con.   Pierre: Well, to the point of the proportion of the market that they're buying up, say there's 15 to 20 million homes on the US market. And their only Emil was at 300,000. That you said,   Emil: Yeah, but that was as of 2019. Just to reiterate.   Pierre: So at that point in time when that measurement was taken, that's not that big of a market share. What about in 10 years? Is this a trend that is moving that will continue? And will they I mean, I'm not about anyone being regulated out of the market, but just as a concern, will this continue to grow and grow and take up a larger market share as time goes on? So that's one concern I have.   The other concern is is I'm not that worried about it. From what I've seen more what I see to be a bigger issue is the, the restrictions around building in certain markets keeping the housing stock low. So that's kind of my pro and con there is what's the future going to look like and is that actually the real problem. Are there other problems driving housing stock shortages?   Tom: I like that option. See on other reasons why maybe there's just not enough houses and it's kind of artificially being kept low?   Pierre: Suppressed Yeah.   Tom: Out of the box.   Emil: Tom, do you What about you? Yeah, share your thoughts here.   Tom: I know that's a great thing about being the host. You can kind of just kind of pass the Hot Potato   Michael: Sneaky snake,   Emil: Aand just interject, Michael, when you have a really good point.   Tom: Yeah, see exactly where his point is going. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to just continue to jump on, just call me jansport, I'm going to Mike, Michael is going to carry me. I am going to twist it up a little bit. So, you know, Michael talked about like debt facilities being different, you know, different, much cheaper insurance, because they're just getting much larger scale. The other big advantage that institutions have, and I'm not saying this, this is necessarily like going against me as an individual buyer. But institutions have access to these portfolios that, you know, let's say a seller only wants to sell it for $100 million and they're going to get a much better discount on these individual properties. So as an individual investor, some of the deals that these institutions are seeing, you'll never see them, because they're just so out of range on what that purchase price is. And you have these compounding effects that make institutions having this, like advantage in the space, like one better deals on individual properties, because they're able to spend $100 million at a time to buy the huge portfolio.   And I'm not saying this is bad, I'm just like, you know, making commentary. So, and then they have advantage to cheap or other type of costs that are involved, be it insurance, you know, maybe even internalizing property manager, management, seeing how that looks. So there's a lot of advantages that an institution has against you as an individual investor.   So the next place where I want to take this conversation is, what are some advantages that you, as an individual investor, potentially have over a larger institution say, you know, in, in buying in a market or for or whatnot, and, Michael, I see you shaking your head a little better? Maybe that's the breeze or something blowing in that mane of hair that you have? Why don't you go ahead and lead us off in this, this train of thought of of thinking about kind of advantages or ways to mitigate, in, in a market doing acquisitions with other institutions?   Michael: Yeah, totally. So as an individual buyer, I think you have the ability to get really granular and really specific and really personal with the people operating in that market. For instance, I doubt that an institution is going to call up five local property managers and ask them their opinion about Fifth Street or 10th ave, they are going to be using data, like you mentioned, Tom aggregating that data to get an idea of what that market is. So if we simply pick up the phone, which I've always said that there's really no substitute for doing and having conversations with real people who are operating and living in that market on a daily basis, you're able to, in my opinion, get a lot more granular.   And so even block by block, a lot of some, some of these markets have have massive differences. And so when you can pinpoint that and get down, again, there's no other better word for it. I think that granular, you can get very precise and very accurate with the types of properties you're buying, and the physical locale those properties. And so I think that that's a massive advantage that we as individuals have, because I just don't see the the data being that granular yet. And maybe they're using data that we don't have access to my guess is that they probably are but from a property, I mean, property by property basis, block by block basis, I just think there's no substitute for for local local personnel.   Tom: Totally love that point. Emil, do you have any other any other thoughts?   Emil: No, I think I think Michael took the important one, right. You are somebody who, you know, like I mentioned earlier, you're looking at that market every day for years, hopefully, right? Like, you're gonna see things and notice things that an institution is not because they're just looking at aggregate data, maybe you see a property that, I don't know, it's three bed, two bath, but it's like two 300 square feet bigger than all the other three bed two baths and you know, you could potentially convert into a fourth bedroom or something, you know, like, these things that you only pick up after just knowing that market, knowing your properties for a longer period of time. So I think it just, you know, may require you to be more patient and have a little bit more skill and in analyzing deal by deal, but I still think you still have plenty of advantages as an individual.   Tom: Yeah.   Michael: I was gonna say one other advantage that I think individuals have over institutions is that we are individuals and we are people. And this applies more so for your mom and pop sellers or you're kind of one off sellers. So we as buyers can really humanize ourselves and often have interactions with the seller and approach it from a very at a human level and kind of human connection. And so this is something that my wife and I did on this 1031 property that we're purchasing, we wrote a letter, just talking about our background, who we are what we want to do with the property why we think we'd be a great fit to buy it and the seller said I want you to have this property, even though there were there were other tours and other offers, I believe.   So when you can connect with someone that kind of on that human level, I think it people like the invisible people they like, versus I am the institution, this is the price kind of thing. I don't know why all situations have robot voices. But that's kind of where I went with it. And so I think just, again, humanizing the deal and humanizing yourself can give you a massive leg up over over more professional investors.   Tom: I think my point that, that in dividuals have over institutions is a longer term lens of, of a strategy, where institutions, you know, they may turn on the acquisition and turn it off. And I remember, in working for one of the single family REITs, you know, our price of our stock would go down, and it had like nothing to do with necessarily performance of the, of the properties that we owned, it could have had something to do with, you know, who knows, like, whatever, what other secondary aspects of the market, and that could impact, okay, when we're doing acquisitions, or when we're buying, there's just this long game of telephone, it's like, with bigger institutions on making decisions where you are this have this longer term view, in that you can sort of not beholden to this, like longer term chain of circumstance, which an institution may have on when they're selling a fund or when they're buying a fund where you can be ultra opportunistic, having a long term vision on when to buy when to sell, in, in time it out, you know, for the what's, what's optimal for you, versus what has happened in these like secondary factors, if that makes sense.   So another point that I made earlier is, there are a lot of markets that are not as saturated with institution, perhaps there's a reason why there's less institutions there. For some of them, it could be just a population thing where they're just looking for bigger markets. So you're much more nimble and agile as an individual investor, in, in moving right in, you know, spreading out longer terms on when you want to buy when you want to sell changing locations, there's just this agility as an individual investor that you have. And a good analogy is to another way to think about it kind of similar to Michael's earlier point is, you know, well, a lot of these institutions are using a lot of data and they're kind of firing, you're executing a little bit more as a shotgun versus like a sniper rifle, where with you, as an individual, you can spend a little bit more time massaging each deal. Understanding each stuff, and there could be times where you run into a brick wall, as in the institution that you're competing with in buying a house just you know, has way more money, but who knows, next month, they may put a halt block and buying for whatever reason that they do. And if you can be patient with your strategy. It I think it tends to pay off in having that longer term horizon.   Michael: The it makes total sense, Emil did you remember that? We were talking to the enemy here, Mr. Mr. REITs?   Emil; Tom, Mr. Former REIT Schneider.   Michael: So Tom, I'm curious to get your perspective, because you did used to work for a single family REIT right? So you were on the institution side of things. And now you're, of course, on the individual side of things. So very curious to get your thoughts around, you know, what tools, advantages you think you had over the individual investor? And now, do you feel handcuffed, or more or less, less well equipped to participate in this space?   Tom: Sure. So I think on from an acquisition standpoint, getting access, you know, as I mentioned, to before, of these, like, big portfolios to look at and to underwrite and buy, was a was a big deal, I mean, I'm probably going to be regurgitating a little bit of some of the stuff that I talked about earlier. So access to doing that type of an acquisition, because you're definitely able to get a little bit of better discount to market and in doing that type of a transaction.   On the hamstring thing, I think there's sometimes with as I said, like a big organization, you may make decisions, at certain levels that don't make sense all the way down to the bottom. Like, for example, like, there was this concept of like turning over capital, where we would just sell properties to recycle the money to come through. And it's like, these are great properties. I remember I worked in acquisitions for a little bit, and some of these properties I bought, and they were like performing awesome. And we sold them, they probably you know, doubled in value from the time that they sold them in whatever 2016 to now, or maybe even more, and it's like, why why would we why why would that institution sell that? I mean, I guess it's great. Now it went to either an individual investor or to an owner occupant in being sold on the MLS, but it just sometimes there's there seems to be decisions made that if you weren't down at the ground floor, you necessarily wouldn't make, you know, in working in one of those institutions.   What is interesting to think about for me, so I left that company to come work at Roofstock in 2016. And that's a lot of time to have improved processes and, like improve the technology. So I think they have institutions have an advantage in applying a lot of resources to getting more efficient as just like a big mechanism. So I I'd be interested to see how some of those companies are running now, as it relates to some of these, you know, in underwriting properties, and how much that has changed. I think there's, you know, definitely opportunities to have an even, you know, a bigger advantage and continuing to iron out those practices and best, you know, technology that support it, after so many more years.   I think the big piece is just his agility, as an individual versus an institution is agility and kind of getting able to, I mean, in buying a property, there's, there's always some unknown unknowns. And I think as an individual, you can go a little bit deeper into answering those questions, be it like, getting to know the local people better. In that area. If you're just focusing on that one, you know, that one property, there's just that much more of an opportunity to go that much that many layers deeper and underwriting a property and underwriting a market and under, underwriting and individual neighborhoods. So I'd say that agility aspect is really is something that we need to take advantage of as individual investors.   I guess as a super high level recap, and if you guys want to fill in, I think we both see institutions as a little bit of a double edged sword. But I think, altogether, I would put them more in the positive camp just in the stability that they provide to the market in providing a price floor and maybe pushing rents a little bit. But again, it can definitely be more competitive on the acquisition side. And Michael, let you fill in some fill in some gaps. I see you wiggling around over there.   Michael: Well, I just I just this analogy just came to me. And it's one of an ocean and in the ocean, we have sharks, and a lot of people are terrified of sharks, they don't like sharks, because they are competing for their same food source. And they also are harmful can be harmful to humans, in some instances, but they're also necessarily part of the ecosystem. And if we got rid of all the sharks, we would likely see the collapse of our oceans. And so it's a it's a necessary evil is the wrong word. Because I don't think sharks are evil. But just as in thinking about some of the dangers or fears around getting in the ocean, could be applied similarly here, there's some maybe danger and fears around getting involved in the single family real estate space. But I think that these institutions are definitely necessary. Force all the pros that we talked about, just like sharks are.   Emil: Yep.   Pierre: The apex predator serves a function, but there's still room for the little fishies   Michael: That's it? Yeah. That's it and surfing ocean analogy over.   Tom: Emil, any final thoughts? You went through in?   Emil: Yeah, just remember, you know, we pulled some data, institutional investors are still a very, very small part of the ownership of all the single family homes in the United States. And for anyone thinking, oh, they're driving up prices, just remember the owner occupants who are thrown 200 300 500,000 over asking to get into the home of their dreams right there. They're acting on it emotionally. And there is very limited supply. So I think that's what's driving up prices, not institutional investors.   Tom: I like it, I like it, I think it's also can be my last, last last little thought is it can be a validation of the space. So you know, you have all this smart capital coming in, you know, one, if someone glass half empty, you could be thinking, oh, they're already there. But it's like like Emil said like, it's a really small percentage of single family rentals that they own of the entire piece. So it's, it's a validation, it's a it's a price floor. It's a an optimation optimization in the space and I think on behalf of everybody in the podcast, there's still room in the ecosystem to take advantage of it.   Awesome, guys. On that note, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the podcasts, like us, subscribe, all that good stuff. I'd also recommend checking out RoofstockAcademy.com check out our YouTube channel, just search Roofstock on YouTube and as always, Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.   Emil: Happy investing.  

Seeing both the high cost of property and all the institutional capital pouring into markets across the country causes many individual investors to worry about being pushed out of the market by the "big guys". In this episode, we address this concern by looking at the pros and cons of institutional activity in the real estate market. --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Tom: Greetings, and welcome to The Remote Real Estate Investor. On this episode, I'm going to be joined by   Emil: Emil Shour   Michael: And Michael album.   Tom: And today we're going to be talking about a trend over the last couple of years where a lot of money is flowing into the space specifically of single family rental investing specifically from about from larger institutions. So today we're going to riff give our opinions on what's good about it, what's bad about it, what are some advantages that they have, versus us as individual investors, and so on. So Alright, let's go ahead and jump into it.   Awesome. So before we get into the topic of hand of discussing institutional capital coming into the space, I feel like it's been a while since we've checked in with each other on what is going on with our own portfolio and all of that good stuff. So Michael, I see you nodding your head on the video screen. So I'll let you, that is your trigger for you to go first, what's what's going on. I'm Michael album, portfolio life world,   Michael: Right on, so a lot of different moving parts. So in the in contract to sell a 12 unit mixed unit property that I own with a partner, we were planning on keeping it as a long term buy and hold, but the market went crazy. And it's kind of a headache property anyhow, so we just said, oh, let's sell it. So we're making a decent profit on that and we're 1031ing it and I'm buying I have a contract, I have a property under contract out towards the east coast further east that I've invested before for a short term rental, and then I have some additional capital that I need to place as part of that 1031 as well. And then I'm also in the midst of two flips and so I have one actually under contract for sale   Tom: Where you think of a parking that the the 1031 proceeds,   Michael: Some of its going to be out in Tennessee, and then for that short term rental, and then I've got to find I gotta find some some place for the rest of it. So if anybody has any great suggestions, I think there's about $100,000 that needs to get placed.   Tom: Nice more multifamily mixed use stuff.   Michael: I'm not sure I think for that piece of it I'll probably just do a single family just go buy a single family all cash somewhere. That's the plan as of now and then I've got two flips underway or the construction is completed so I have one that's actually being sold on roofs currently it's under contract and then I have another one that is should be getting a lease signed any day now and that'll be sold through stock as well with a tenant in place.   Tom: Awesome.   Michael: So all kinds of moving parts.   Tom: Nice Emil and yourself.   Emil: So I don't remember my last update but I think I was talking about the the triplex we had the one bed one bath and getting ready to be renovated or just repaired, renovate whatever you want to call it. So we finished that ended up you know, there was a bunch of the tenant before was a smoker so we had to like do a couple coats of paint and a lot of patching to be done. We ended up replacing the kitchen cabinets and a bunch of loose ends here and there on the inside and outside of the property. So that just wrapped up and so my property manager is marketing that to be rented right now.   And then this triplex was actually a four plex converted into a triplex so one side is like a stacked one bed one bath. The other side is like a townhouse two story that tenant just left the other month which is actually great because it's a three bed two or one and a half bath. So the rent is probably a couple 100 bucks under which can be especially with the market rent starting to go up a lot recently. So we just approved a bid from a contractor yesterday and we are about to get underway making repairs there and getting ready to rent out so that'll probably be another four to six weeks if I had to guess.   Michael: Nice   Tom: Nice on actually guys I'm kind of in a in a boring position I which is always a good thing as a remote investor like boring is good. So I am actually so I did a couple of cash out refis with the great rates all that good stuff and right now I am in recording in my office which is our extra bedroom but we're in the not too distant future going to have another baby moving into it. So I'm losing my office space and these days it's really important so my real estate you know activities is more around, building a little To do shed on my lot, so I there's a lot of really cool prefab companies that that do this kind of stuff. So going through that rigmarole of hopefully the Contra Costa County Planning Commission is on the call of debating around permitting it or not, I mean, it's not going to have what you call it like plumbing or anything, but it will have electrical.   So basically working through contractors and site planning and kind of working on that type of fund development. But I think there's probably some real sweat equity to have like within the house that I'm at now adding an extra, you know, detached little office. So hopefully I get my money back. And some at the point which I decided to sell my place talk.   Michael: Totally.   Emil: I've been wondering about those, Tom, do you so you have to like, you have to get some type of permitting or approvals for the prefab stuff that doesn't have any plumbing, like I thought they just came in kind of like, set it down. And you're good to go.   Tom: Yeah, I mean, I think that the city would want you to permit it. The from in talking to my contractor where you can get yourself in big problems is related to zoning and like setbacks. So like, let's say I build this, and I don't get it approved. And then for whatever reason, either they find out or come, if the building is doesn't have the proper setbacks, and they can make me rip it down. But if they don't, they just might never approve it. I could be talking out of my bottom. And hopefully we had the right disclosures at the top of the episode. These are all opinions, not necessarily facts.   But you know, I'm making sure that I'm nailing the zoning stuff, right and doing it if I decide not to necessarily to permit this this little unit, you know, I don't know, the I mean, the other consideration is permitting, so I sit when I when I sell it like it has that, but kind of funnily when I looked at a house earlier, maybe like two years ago, they had a little unit and I didn't ask if they were permitted. I mean, I guess maybe I should have, but I think the bids were still competitive, taking that in consideration that, hey, this is up and working as a an additional outside office.   So I don't know, we'll see if anyone would love to comment on. Should Tom try and permit his little studio shed that would be greatly appreciated.   All right. Back to the topic at hand. And I this is this is a great, Pierre, excellent idea for an episode today. So the question is, are institutions so big private equity that's coming in buying single family homes? Are they crowding out? individual buyers, such as ourselves, and the way that I think I love to shape this conversation is to give kind of an equal measure, looking at both both sides of the table as an investor, I think, with other people in the space, it's it can be sort of a double edged sword. And I'd love one of you guys I'd love for… Michael, why don't you lead us off on this discussion in talking about as an individual investor, you know, how do you see institutions, helping you not helping you in just kind of in the ecosystem of the single family space? Go ahead and lead us off.   Michael: So I think I'll start by talking about the positives, first by some of the real benefits that we are likely to see if not seeing already from ibuyers institutions coming into the space. So for one is institutions don't make it their business to let properties become dilapidated. So they'll often buy properties and then fix them up with a lot of capex, make them nice. And so if I'm invested in that same market, or even better in that same neighborhood, my property is likely going to be seeing a lot of appreciation, because these other properties in the area are being brought up to snuff. And maybe even nicer than my property,   Tom: Not just appreciation, probably rent growth as well, I might be stealing your next bullet point. But I think that's really tightly that you're seeing the benefit from.   Michael: Wow, Tom. I had my linear path and you just cut me off at the knees.   Tom: I know I'm, that's what a good leader of the episode does is just tear down other people go ahead and   Emil: Take all the glory for himself.   Tom: That's right. That was a good idea Tom.   Michael: Last time I share episode notes with you. So I think that there's there's neighborhoods that are being that are being improved greatly. And I think that there's a misnomer and a common misconception when people hear the word landlord, or property owner and it's so somebody owns a slumlord. They let it become dilapidated, a lot of deferred maintenance, leave Park cars on the lawn type of thing. And so these institutions are in the business of making a return and are I think, likely in it for a longer period of time, then then some, mom and pop landlords. And so they are injecting capital into these markets, serious capital into these markets, and a rising tide raises all ships. And so if you happen to be investing in those same markets or have previously invested in those same markets, that can be a real big win.   Tom: I like it, I'm able to do without any other initial commentary?   Emil: On the on the pro side or the con side?   Tom: I'm gonna let you take get where you want, you know what also a good podcast leader it gives…   Michael: Flexibility   Tom: …to take my fellow co host, explore the space, take it where you want.   Emil: Okay. All right. All right. So I think it's one of those things that it just depends on on how you look at the world, I think they do a good service in that they provide a floor right back in 2010 2013, when prices just kept going down and down and down. That's when institutional investors came in and really created that bottom and started scooping everything up. And like Michael said, fixing up a lot of these distressed homes, bringing them up, bringing them up to code, whatever, making them nice and converting them into rentals.   So I think I think the same thing can be said, Now you have a lot of institutions who are interested in the space, they create a price floor for us, mom and pops. So that's good. I think it gives you some reassurance that this is maybe a more mature asset class than it used to be that there's a lot of money waiting on the sidelines. So if things go down a little bit, you know, it's not going to crater as much because some institutional money could come in and again, create that price floor. So I think that's one of the positives.   Also, you know, I remember reading these headlines, like, no one really providing data is kind of just anecdotal hearsay stuff. And so there's this Vox article that I just pulled up. Let me let me pull some stats from this. So this is from Laurie Goodman, who is vice president, vice president for housing finance policy at the Urban Institute. One of the things she mentioned is that as of 2019, institutional operators owned just 300,000 single family units. So you know, I know they're, they're putting more pressure to buy now, but you can just see there's such a small percentage and for context, researchers point out that there are roughly 15,000,00 1-unit detached single family rental homes in the United States. So a very, very small fraction are still owned by these institutions. So I think it makes all these you know, salacious headlines.   But if you dig into the data, they're really not scooping up the lion's share of properties. It's still owner, occupants, Mom and Pop investors. So I think a lot of it was you know, clickbait headlines trying to get people to outrage. You know, outrage sells. So I think that was part of it too.   Michael: That's, that's a great point. But I also have to ask, Do you have one of those like Word of the Day calendars on your desk, because salacious is not a word that I've ever heard you use before? So curious to know if it's part of your daily lexicon?   Emil: No, Michael, it just came to me as I was exploring the space that Tom had asked me to explore. So, you know, sometimes I'm a learned man, and I use words like salacious. So leave me alone, okay,   Michael: I should explore spaces more, that's on me My bad.   Tom: So I'll add a couple of more points in the pro column as it relates to institutions coming in. So one of them is I love your point of meal about providing a price floor, I mean, in you know, family friends talking to me, Hey, aren't you concerned, if there's a huge, you know, drop in the value of the homes, it's like, no, like, so the rents stay fairly stable, just because they move very slowly, because they're on long contracts. And as a basic function of looking on what the return is, with the institutional money that's out there, they're going to pick up whatever you know, goes to sale, if it's below a certain dollar amount. So I think the the place price floor is really important.   The other is the liquidity aspect. So I'm sure and I've received a lot of different mail and you know, from like, OpenDoor, and some other like bigger companies coming in the space, maybe Open Door isn't isn't a great example, just because they're buying just to sell it, they're not necessarily long term buy and hold. But what they are providing is more liquidity if I needed to move pretty quickly, either on a 1031, or whatever.   The other aspect that I didn't hear talked about by you guys is better information on analyzing markets. So when with the institutions getting involved, they have a lot more data that makes sense in like a single place. And there's great research folks out there like John Burns, if you haven't looked heard of him, please look him up. He's, he's been on the podcast before. He's sort of like the the economic thought leader in SFR space and puts out these reports with tons of really good information on markets on like the top 50 or so markets. And a lot of that is made possible by the aggregation of data. So as a buyer, individual buyer, when I'm looking at potential markets to buy in, I'm going to have a lot more color on the type of return profile by these different markets because of the aggregation of the data on those institutions.   So I think that's been another boon or benefit of just kind of the lights being turned on. With regards to these different markets where there's good institutional concentration to be able to see what what, you know, how they're how those are performing.   Michael: So are you suggesting like to ride the coattails kind of of the institutions that have Hey, if there are these big institutional players going in? It's they've clearly done their homework, it could be a great market to invest in?   Tom: Yeah, I think that's definitely can be a strategy to do in like, you know, exactly like you said, these other people that are doing their homework and, and honestly, though, if you want to avoid that you can just buy in smaller markets, because a lot of these institutions are only going to find them in these Class A, for the majority of them, and maybe some class B, I guess, or when I'd say Class A Class B, I'm thinking more market size. I don't think I'm using the right verbiage, but like   Michael: Tier one,   Tom: So like the tier one. Yeah, exactly. Like the Dallas market versus some smaller markets, there's going to be less institutions that you if you do want to avoid them. But all right, let's go ahead and continue and continue the conversation. I'd love to hear some thoughts around negatives, with institutions coming into the space, Emil, why don't we change the order up? Why don't you go ahead and lead us first?   Emil: I'm just gonna have to point to anecdotal stuff, right, like a an institution. And if you know your to believe these headlines, and these articles that are saying institutions are coming in I buyers are coming in and way overpaying for properties. That could be the case, right? That could be one negative, maybe they don't know the market as well as you know, your eye who is looking at the same market every day for years, right? And we know what an appropriate prices, they could come in, and they just have a lot of money. You know, they're looking at an investment in like a five year maybe 10 year time horizon. And they're like, Oh, won't matter. 5-10 years, we think it's gonna go up X percent. So we want to win as many properties as we can we have a lot of capital you want to deploy, so let's just throw a lot of money. So that could be one of the negatives is they're coming in, and they're willing to out pay your eye. So that I think is the biggest negative when you see things like this.   Tom: I like it. Yeah, deep, deep pockets too tough, too tough to beat out that beat that out in acquisition. Michael, go ahead.   Michael: Yeah, I think just to echo what Emil was saying. I think one of the reasons it's so difficult than they're able to overpay so much is one because it's not necessarily their money, so to speak. Like they have investors money they're playing with is other people's money. So there's, there's a bit of an attachment there. And then also they have access to death facilities, or if they are borrowing debt, they're able to do so at a much cheaper rate than then you were I. And so they're playing kind of with a different set of rules, trying to play the same game that we individual owners are applying. So that makes it really difficult to compete.   And then also Emil, like you mentioned that that price floor, I think that that can be perceived as a negative to if someone is on in a purchasing mode or purchasing phase. If I'm waiting for a downturn, or I'm waiting for a market correction, and there is a blip on the radar minor correction, these institutions might swoop in and prevent the prices from falling to a place where I might want them to be or need them to be in order to get involved into the game, or investing in real estate. So I think it's both a pro and a con, depending on which side of the equation you are, if you're already an owner, or if you're a potential buyer, that could be perceived as a real con.   Tom: Pierre I'd love to hear how you came up with this as a topic, I'd love to hear your your thoughts on either side of the coin pro or con.   Pierre: Well, to the point of the proportion of the market that they're buying up, say there's 15 to 20 million homes on the US market. And their only Emil was at 300,000. That you said,   Emil: Yeah, but that was as of 2019. Just to reiterate.   Pierre: So at that point in time when that measurement was taken, that's not that big of a market share. What about in 10 years? Is this a trend that is moving that will continue? And will they I mean, I'm not about anyone being regulated out of the market, but just as a concern, will this continue to grow and grow and take up a larger market share as time goes on? So that's one concern I have.   The other concern is is I'm not that worried about it. From what I've seen more what I see to be a bigger issue is the, the restrictions around building in certain markets keeping the housing stock low. So that's kind of my pro and con there is what's the future going to look like and is that actually the real problem. Are there other problems driving housing stock shortages?   Tom: I like that option. See on other reasons why maybe there's just not enough houses and it's kind of artificially being kept low?   Pierre: Suppressed Yeah.   Tom: Out of the box.   Emil: Tom, do you What about you? Yeah, share your thoughts here.   Tom: I know that's a great thing about being the host. You can kind of just kind of pass the Hot Potato   Michael: Sneaky snake,   Emil: Aand just interject, Michael, when you have a really good point.   Tom: Yeah, see exactly where his point is going. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to just continue to jump on, just call me jansport, I'm going to Mike, Michael is going to carry me. I am going to twist it up a little bit. So, you know, Michael talked about like debt facilities being different, you know, different, much cheaper insurance, because they're just getting much larger scale. The other big advantage that institutions have, and I'm not saying this, this is necessarily like going against me as an individual buyer. But institutions have access to these portfolios that, you know, let's say a seller only wants to sell it for $100 million and they're going to get a much better discount on these individual properties. So as an individual investor, some of the deals that these institutions are seeing, you'll never see them, because they're just so out of range on what that purchase price is. And you have these compounding effects that make institutions having this, like advantage in the space, like one better deals on individual properties, because they're able to spend $100 million at a time to buy the huge portfolio.   And I'm not saying this is bad, I'm just like, you know, making commentary. So, and then they have advantage to cheap or other type of costs that are involved, be it insurance, you know, maybe even internalizing property manager, management, seeing how that looks. So there's a lot of advantages that an institution has against you as an individual investor.   So the next place where I want to take this conversation is, what are some advantages that you, as an individual investor, potentially have over a larger institution say, you know, in, in buying in a market or for or whatnot, and, Michael, I see you shaking your head a little better? Maybe that's the breeze or something blowing in that mane of hair that you have? Why don't you go ahead and lead us off in this, this train of thought of of thinking about kind of advantages or ways to mitigate, in, in a market doing acquisitions with other institutions?   Michael: Yeah, totally. So as an individual buyer, I think you have the ability to get really granular and really specific and really personal with the people operating in that market. For instance, I doubt that an institution is going to call up five local property managers and ask them their opinion about Fifth Street or 10th ave, they are going to be using data, like you mentioned, Tom aggregating that data to get an idea of what that market is. So if we simply pick up the phone, which I've always said that there's really no substitute for doing and having conversations with real people who are operating and living in that market on a daily basis, you're able to, in my opinion, get a lot more granular.   And so even block by block, a lot of some, some of these markets have have massive differences. And so when you can pinpoint that and get down, again, there's no other better word for it. I think that granular, you can get very precise and very accurate with the types of properties you're buying, and the physical locale those properties. And so I think that that's a massive advantage that we as individuals have, because I just don't see the the data being that granular yet. And maybe they're using data that we don't have access to my guess is that they probably are but from a property, I mean, property by property basis, block by block basis, I just think there's no substitute for for local local personnel.   Tom: Totally love that point. Emil, do you have any other any other thoughts?   Emil: No, I think I think Michael took the important one, right. You are somebody who, you know, like I mentioned earlier, you're looking at that market every day for years, hopefully, right? Like, you're gonna see things and notice things that an institution is not because they're just looking at aggregate data, maybe you see a property that, I don't know, it's three bed, two bath, but it's like two 300 square feet bigger than all the other three bed two baths and you know, you could potentially convert into a fourth bedroom or something, you know, like, these things that you only pick up after just knowing that market, knowing your properties for a longer period of time. So I think it just, you know, may require you to be more patient and have a little bit more skill and in analyzing deal by deal, but I still think you still have plenty of advantages as an individual.   Tom: Yeah.   Michael: I was gonna say one other advantage that I think individuals have over institutions is that we are individuals and we are people. And this applies more so for your mom and pop sellers or you're kind of one off sellers. So we as buyers can really humanize ourselves and often have interactions with the seller and approach it from a very at a human level and kind of human connection. And so this is something that my wife and I did on this 1031 property that we're purchasing, we wrote a letter, just talking about our background, who we are what we want to do with the property why we think we'd be a great fit to buy it and the seller said I want you to have this property, even though there were there were other tours and other offers, I believe.   So when you can connect with someone that kind of on that human level, I think it people like the invisible people they like, versus I am the institution, this is the price kind of thing. I don't know why all situations have robot voices. But that's kind of where I went with it. And so I think just, again, humanizing the deal and humanizing yourself can give you a massive leg up over over more professional investors.   Tom: I think my point that, that in dividuals have over institutions is a longer term lens of, of a strategy, where institutions, you know, they may turn on the acquisition and turn it off. And I remember, in working for one of the single family REITs, you know, our price of our stock would go down, and it had like nothing to do with necessarily performance of the, of the properties that we owned, it could have had something to do with, you know, who knows, like, whatever, what other secondary aspects of the market, and that could impact, okay, when we're doing acquisitions, or when we're buying, there's just this long game of telephone, it's like, with bigger institutions on making decisions where you are this have this longer term view, in that you can sort of not beholden to this, like longer term chain of circumstance, which an institution may have on when they're selling a fund or when they're buying a fund where you can be ultra opportunistic, having a long term vision on when to buy when to sell, in, in time it out, you know, for the what's, what's optimal for you, versus what has happened in these like secondary factors, if that makes sense.   So another point that I made earlier is, there are a lot of markets that are not as saturated with institution, perhaps there's a reason why there's less institutions there. For some of them, it could be just a population thing where they're just looking for bigger markets. So you're much more nimble and agile as an individual investor, in, in moving right in, you know, spreading out longer terms on when you want to buy when you want to sell changing locations, there's just this agility as an individual investor that you have. And a good analogy is to another way to think about it kind of similar to Michael's earlier point is, you know, well, a lot of these institutions are using a lot of data and they're kind of firing, you're executing a little bit more as a shotgun versus like a sniper rifle, where with you, as an individual, you can spend a little bit more time massaging each deal. Understanding each stuff, and there could be times where you run into a brick wall, as in the institution that you're competing with in buying a house just you know, has way more money, but who knows, next month, they may put a halt block and buying for whatever reason that they do. And if you can be patient with your strategy. It I think it tends to pay off in having that longer term horizon.   Michael: The it makes total sense, Emil did you remember that? We were talking to the enemy here, Mr. Mr. REITs?   Emil; Tom, Mr. Former REIT Schneider.   Michael: So Tom, I'm curious to get your perspective, because you did used to work for a single family REIT right? So you were on the institution side of things. And now you're, of course, on the individual side of things. So very curious to get your thoughts around, you know, what tools, advantages you think you had over the individual investor? And now, do you feel handcuffed, or more or less, less well equipped to participate in this space?   Tom: Sure. So I think on from an acquisition standpoint, getting access, you know, as I mentioned, to before, of these, like, big portfolios to look at and to underwrite and buy, was a was a big deal, I mean, I'm probably going to be regurgitating a little bit of some of the stuff that I talked about earlier. So access to doing that type of an acquisition, because you're definitely able to get a little bit of better discount to market and in doing that type of a transaction.   On the hamstring thing, I think there's sometimes with as I said, like a big organization, you may make decisions, at certain levels that don't make sense all the way down to the bottom. Like, for example, like, there was this concept of like turning over capital, where we would just sell properties to recycle the money to come through. And it's like, these are great properties. I remember I worked in acquisitions for a little bit, and some of these properties I bought, and they were like performing awesome. And we sold them, they probably you know, doubled in value from the time that they sold them in whatever 2016 to now, or maybe even more, and it's like, why why would we why why would that institution sell that? I mean, I guess it's great. Now it went to either an individual investor or to an owner occupant in being sold on the MLS, but it just sometimes there's there seems to be decisions made that if you weren't down at the ground floor, you necessarily wouldn't make, you know, in working in one of those institutions.   What is interesting to think about for me, so I left that company to come work at Roofstock in 2016. And that's a lot of time to have improved processes and, like improve the technology. So I think they have institutions have an advantage in applying a lot of resources to getting more efficient as just like a big mechanism. So I I'd be interested to see how some of those companies are running now, as it relates to some of these, you know, in underwriting properties, and how much that has changed. I think there's, you know, definitely opportunities to have an even, you know, a bigger advantage and continuing to iron out those practices and best, you know, technology that support it, after so many more years.   I think the big piece is just his agility, as an individual versus an institution is agility and kind of getting able to, I mean, in buying a property, there's, there's always some unknown unknowns. And I think as an individual, you can go a little bit deeper into answering those questions, be it like, getting to know the local people better. In that area. If you're just focusing on that one, you know, that one property, there's just that much more of an opportunity to go that much that many layers deeper and underwriting a property and underwriting a market and under, underwriting and individual neighborhoods. So I'd say that agility aspect is really is something that we need to take advantage of as individual investors.   I guess as a super high level recap, and if you guys want to fill in, I think we both see institutions as a little bit of a double edged sword. But I think, altogether, I would put them more in the positive camp just in the stability that they provide to the market in providing a price floor and maybe pushing rents a little bit. But again, it can definitely be more competitive on the acquisition side. And Michael, let you fill in some fill in some gaps. I see you wiggling around over there.   Michael: Well, I just I just this analogy just came to me. And it's one of an ocean and in the ocean, we have sharks, and a lot of people are terrified of sharks, they don't like sharks, because they are competing for their same food source. And they also are harmful can be harmful to humans, in some instances, but they're also necessarily part of the ecosystem. And if we got rid of all the sharks, we would likely see the collapse of our oceans. And so it's a it's a necessary evil is the wrong word. Because I don't think sharks are evil. But just as in thinking about some of the dangers or fears around getting in the ocean, could be applied similarly here, there's some maybe danger and fears around getting involved in the single family real estate space. But I think that these institutions are definitely necessary. Force all the pros that we talked about, just like sharks are.   Emil: Yep.   Pierre: The apex predator serves a function, but there's still room for the little fishies   Michael: That's it? Yeah. That's it and surfing ocean analogy over.   Tom: Emil, any final thoughts? You went through in?   Emil: Yeah, just remember, you know, we pulled some data, institutional investors are still a very, very small part of the ownership of all the single family homes in the United States. And for anyone thinking, oh, they're driving up prices, just remember the owner occupants who are thrown 200 300 500,000 over asking to get into the home of their dreams right there. They're acting on it emotionally. And there is very limited supply. So I think that's what's driving up prices, not institutional investors.   Tom: I like it, I like it, I think it's also can be my last, last last little thought is it can be a validation of the space. So you know, you have all this smart capital coming in, you know, one, if someone glass half empty, you could be thinking, oh, they're already there. But it's like like Emil said like, it's a really small percentage of single family rentals that they own of the entire piece. So it's, it's a validation, it's a it's a price floor. It's a an optimation optimization in the space and I think on behalf of everybody in the podcast, there's still room in the ecosystem to take advantage of it.   Awesome, guys. On that note, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the podcasts, like us, subscribe, all that good stuff. I'd also recommend checking out RoofstockAcademy.com check out our YouTube channel, just search Roofstock on YouTube and as always, Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.   Emil: Happy investing.

A live Clubhouse recording of Geoffrey Stern and Rabbi Adam Mintz as we explore the origins of ritual slaughter, the implicit bias of the Torah to vegetarianism and the origins and limitations of carnivorism in Judaism.  We also highlight the contribution of Judaism of mindfulness when it come to our food supply and where we go from here. Sefaria Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/340004 Transcript: Geoffrey Stern  So welcome to Madlik disruptive Torah and this week is Parshart Re'eh and in two, little verses it pretty much makes the only biblical reference. And maybe not even a reference but a kind of an allusion to laws that practicing Jews take very, very seriously. And that is the laws of kashrut; of slaughtering animals. And I must say that when I first stumbled upon this, I was amazed by how little is there. So let's jump right into it. It's Deuteronomy 12. And it says, "When the Lord enlarges your territory, as he has promised you, and you say, I shall eat some meat, for you have the urge to eat meat, you may eat meat, whenever you wish. If the place where the Lord has chosen to establish His name is too far from you, you may slaughter any of the cattle or sheep that the Lord gives you, as I have instructed you, and you may eat to your heart's content in your settlements." So clearly, this was written at a point where if you take it into the context that it's supposed to be written in, which is when the Jews were first coming into the land, and they where already understanding that they were going to enlarge, they already somehow had an intuition that there was going to be a centralized temple. And that's what the references to the place where the Lord has chosen to establish his name. But what is assumed here is that, number one, you can only eat meat in that chosen place at the temple. And as many of you know from the Passover sacrifice, that was a sacrifice that sacrificed to God, but eaten by a group of people. So eating of meat, one can assume there was a time where you could only eat it around the temple. And here is the permission to eat it if you're too far away to eat it in the temple. And it doesn't give any rules for slaughtering it. It just says an illusion, "as I have instructed you" Kasher Tziviticha. So I'm going to stop now, before we dive into the many nuances of this. But rabbi, what what did these two sentences mean to you?   Adam Mintz  Well, the first thing is very important again, that meat was only eaten as part of the sacrifices, meat was considered to be a tremendous luxury. You couldn't eat it just be yourself. It had to be part of religious of religious experience. That's a huge transition from eating meat as part of a  sacrifice to eating meat for dinner and having a hamburger, having a barbecue at home. That might have been the biggest transition that the Jews experienced when they entered the land   Geoffrey Stern  I think you're correct.... both when they entered the land, and possibly when they first entered the land with a traveling tabernacle. And before the temple was built. This also and I kind of alluded to, we don't know exactly when it was written, you know, when there was a tabernacle in Shilo. And there were other places that had these tabernacles the religion was more distributed. But when it became centralized in Jerusalem at the temple, that was also a moment just like coming into the promised land was a moment. And so what we're seeing is ..... as if we didn't know that the practice of Judaism evolve .... clearly evolved, whether from the days of the desert into the promised land, or from the days when it was a decentralized tribal conglomerate to when it becomes centralized in Jerusalem. But I want to focus for a second on a word used. The English is "if you desire" "you may eat meat when you have the urge to eat meat." In the Hebrew it's "Ochla basar ki toevah nefsha" if you desire to eat meat, because your soul craves for it. The word "Ta'aiva"  is it carries baggage I believe in Hebrew, if you called somebody "Ba'al Ta'aivah", it's a glutton pretty much. It's someone who's driven by their desires, even in the Bible itself. In the desert when there was the the Riff Raff, the Erev Rav, and they were complaining. It says in Numbers "ve'tayavu Ta'aivah" they had this gluttonous craving. And when they were punished and killed for their craving, the name of the place that they were buried "Kivrot HaTaiaivah"  was "the Place of the Gluttony". So I wonder, and I ask you, Rabbi, when we read this, is there that sense of social criticism? And is this sort of a concession? Or am I just taking this out of context?   Adam Mintz  No you are definitely not. I would just tweak what you said Geoffrey to say. I think the Torah doesn't say that every time you eat meat, that it's bad, that it's gluttony. I think the Torah is concerned that it has the potential to become gluttony. You I have to be very careful. Originally the way the Torah was careful said that you only are allowed to eat meat, if part of that meat is going as a religious sacrifice. So therefore you're not going to be irresponsible, if it's going as a religious sacrifice. So I think being a "Ba'al Ta'aivah" is connected to meat. And therefore they needed to restrict, and to limit the ways in which you are allowed to eat.   Geoffrey Stern  Yeah, and I forgot to mention another important one in the 10 commandments, right after it says "do not covet your neighbor's wife. It says You shall not crave your neighbor's house "Lo Tai'avah Beith Re'echa"  so it definitely has this sense. And it does carry some social baggage.  I hear what you said. But I have to say also, that what we have is a juxtaposition here of meat that is sanctified and sacrificed in the temple, and meat that is "basar Ta'eivah". And it could mean meat outside of the temple that any meat outside of the temple is, "Ba'asar Ta'eivah" . All I think what you're saying, which is interesting is that when you do eat meat, outside of the temple, you have to make sure that there was a religious or spiritual element to it.   Adam Mintz  That is what I'm saying, because that that will protect you against the "Ta'Aivah" issue.   Geoffrey Stern  We're going to get into maybe the history of, of eating meat, and in the approach of the Bible to eating meat in a second. But before we do, it is a good case study in how the Bible, the Torah deals with the less than perfect characteristics that we humans have. In other words, it understands that people have these desires, and we don't live in a black and white world. And I think this becomes then kind of an interesting case study. So before we dive into the development of eating meat, let's also use this as an opportunity to understand where the laws that we have of "Shechita" came from. So Rashi focuses on this verse. And the fact that in verse 21, God says, "you may slaughter the sheep, and the cattle that the Lord gives you, as I have instructed, you" "Ka'asher tziviticha" ,  And Rashi says that, from here, we learn that there must be an Oral Tradition because if you read The Five books of Moses backwards and forwards, you will never find any of these laws there. You know, there's a joke that I once heard, that says that in Rome, they found some copper sthreads one foot down in an excavation. And they said, This proves that the early Romans must have had a phone system. And the Greeks didn't want to be outdone. And they dug down two feet, and they found some threads made of glass and they said, Well, we must have had a fiber optic system in our day. And then the Israelis didn't want to be out done and they dug down four feet and they found nothing. And they said, Well, we must have had a cellular network. So this is a situation where we have nothing in the written law about the laws of Shechita. And the laws of Shechita are very extensive, and Rashi wants to bring from here a proof. He doesn't simply say that, Oh, well, those are commanded in the Oral Law. He says from here the fact that it was referenced, an Oral Law or commandment was referenced. We know that the Oral Law exists. So that is kind of an interesting maneuver. But it does speak to how much of the the regular practice of Judaism is contained in the Oral law.   Adam Mintz  Yeah, well, the interrelationship between the Oral Law and the written law is an amazing topic isn't?   Geoffrey Stern  It certainly is. And for those who study the Talmud, they know that there was so many diverse opinions, that sometimes you can go back and find an opinion that was not a mainstream opinion. But it certainly means that nothing is written in stone. But that, in fact, these laws that are so critical to the lifestyle of so many Jews are not contained in the written law. And it's always important that you know, your sources so that you know that something is based on Torah, in terms of the Written Torah. And some things are based on the Oral tradition. And so you got to give credit,   Adam Mintz  Geoffrey you make an interesting point now, and that is to know the difference about whether it's biblical or whether it's rabbinic. And somehow if it's biblical, it's more important. I'm going to tell you a little secret. The rabbi's often tell us that the rabbinic law is more important, because they were afraid that people would be lax on the rabbinic law. So they try to make an extra effort to make a big point about the rabbinic law, which is a very, I mean, obviously, it's self serving. But it's interesting   Geoffrey Stern  Abolutely. And in this case, you got to give them credit for acknowledging that it's [only] in the Oral Law. And I think that's something that I was also found important, they might emphasize the importance of the law, but they also emphasize full transparency. Noy, welcome to the platform. I'd love to hear from you.   Noy  Hi. Hi. I just have a question. Are you Orthodox Jews?   Adam Mintz  This is a wonderful discussion, because this is not orthodox, conservative or reform. We're just studying the text. Everybody is equal in this conversation.   Noy  Yeah, yeah. But I wanted to know.  Just wondering, Thank you. We're all equal in this conversation. We don't make distinctions.   Geoffrey Stern  And I think that in general, when it comes to studying the texts, it's not important who you are, or what you believe, but that you're studying.   Noy  We all believe in God. Hasdhem.   Michael Stern  Thank you Shabbat shalom. I have a question. Its as if we were if we say that we're Chosen and we were given this information 100, hundreds of years ago, that eating meat has to be in "midah", in some sort of balance and not gluttony, as you said. And so now we're discovering on documentary movies, how the meat farming, meat raising industry is causing, I think, 50% of the issues with the carbon dioxide....  one of the largest factors in climate warming. And I'd like to ask you guys, if we were given this information that raising of meat for eating, and not for some maybe religious sacrificial purpose, which sounds good to me now, compared to the eating industry of meat, that we would not have climate change challenges, and what role we as Israelites and Jews have in bringing this wisdom and knowledge to humanity as the chosen people who could say, Hey, guys, it's been told 1000s of years ago, or whenever the Torah and all this information was passed down. So if somebody could address this, that would be great. So   Geoffrey Stern  I think that you're absolutely correct. And before we go into the history of vegetarianism, .... because I think you're gonna see that the bias of the Torah is very much towards vegetarianism. But before we leave these verses, I think one of the things that's so exciting to me about this discussion, and I alluded to it before by saying it's not black and white, that there are degrees, and that one of the rabbi's said about this verse, that it says, when you expand your territory, he said the Tortah taught that it is a desired behavior of a person should consume meat due only due to appetite, meaning to say you should never eat meat, pell mell, as just, you know, I have meat and potatoes every lunch, that's the way I'm built. That's the way we are, you should save it for special situations where you have a craving, and that craving could be psychologically based. It could be nutritional based. But I think what you was saying, Michael, in terms of in "midah" in moderation, in context and in exerting a certain self discipline. And I think that's the the flip side of gluttony is not abstention, the flip side of gluttony is to do things using using moderation. And I do believe that it's a striking example. I don't know how many other examples in the Torah there are like this.   Many times in the Torah, it's either "assur" it's forbidden or "pator" , it's permitted. But how many times does it say it's good in moderation. And I think we are seeing something here. And the environmental issues that you raise are critical. Meaning to say that there was certain things that we really have to moderate. And we have to do them thoughtfully.   Michael Stern  So why have that's great, but why haven't we used our brilliance and our influence...  we're great influencers... take it out of the study room and say, Wait, this is a mission? I mean, to say, "wait, this is a proving that it's self sabotaging humanity, this planet could explode in 50 years. And all this talk if we are the people that God spoke to, we have a responsibility, and not to be worried about fighting for land, or maybe let's fight for the land and fight for the planet. What I don't understand how we don't take it out of the discussion room and say, "Planet God has spoken to us."   Adam Mintz  So Michael, I just want to say your question is better than my answer. But I want to tell you that the yeshiva and Riverdale Chovavei Torah at the end of July, just last month, a couple of weeks ago, they had an entire day that was dedicated to climate control. And they dealt with these issues. And there were many people at that conference who believe Michael, exactly what you said is we need to take it out of the study hall and we need to, you know, we need to teach the world about what the Torah's laws are and how the Torah wants to protect the environment and what we need to protect the environment. So I wouldn't say that it's it's mainstream Michael, but it's no question that the issues that you raise are issues that are being raised now in the Jewish community, and you know, the things that people are talking about.   Michael Stern  That's great to know. Thank you Rabbi   Geoffrey Stern  And I think part and parcel of that is that Judaism gave the world something which I think is amazing. And that is thoughtfulness..... eating thoughtfully. And that is a gift that we've given. But I think what is happening in the last 100 years at least. And it's accelerating every week, is that society is passing Judaism by because Judaism spent a lot of time looking at the food chain... if you want to look at "Shechita" ritual slaughter as looking at the food chain, that has become much more important. If Judaism has used the laws of kashrut to talk about the quality and the qualifications of people involved with the slaughter of animals, again, modern society is starting to look at ethical issues. Do you pay your employees at the slaughterhouse properly? Do they have health benefits? When we buy food, we are more interested now than ever, not only in the nutritional value, but on the whole supply chain. And sometimes being the early adopter of something, the first mover is an advantage. But sometimes you get overcome with your own achievements. And I think that now and we're seeing movements along this, there's a movement that talks not about Kashrut, but about "Yashrut" meaning being Yashar is straight being ethical. And this is an organization that will say, you know, maybe the meat is slaughtered in a humane way. But you also have to make sure that the workers are paid. And if it's not, it's not kosher meat. I think that is the real challenge, it might start at the study hall, but it means opening up the parameters of the discussion, Mike, welcome to our platform, what's on your mind,   mike  I ws thinking about what you said. Real quickly, my background is, I grew up in a, very moderate Chabad Lubavitch family I'm not Chabad any more, but you know, growing up to seeing my family, the way they do things when it comes to like Kashrut. They'll pay attention to all these details about okay, we have this and has a "K" on the box, we'll buy this meat. But they won't think about the fact that this meat has all these hormones injected into it and all these other things that make the meat just terrible products, whether it's meat or processed food, it seems that I'm not just picking on an orthodox, but it seems that we as a people have got our values just totally misplaced. That's why I was all I wanted to say for now.   Adam Mintz  Okay, I mean, Thanks, Mike, for your comments. I mean, that's, you know, Michael has brought that up. And we appreciate that. And we understand that maybe the Jewish community has a responsibility. And I think to Geoffrey's credit, the choice of, this idea of Kashrut and Yashrut, this is only one piece of Kashrut and Yashrut  ... this conversation that we're having today, and it's recorded and everything, and we have a whole bunch of people who were listening, maybe this is going to make this a point of conversation, which will allow other people to, you know, to join in to understand some of these issues. We have Ethan on the line. Would you like to join the conversation?   Ethan  So I'll try to keep this brief so we can keep the conversation moving. When we were talking about the opposite of gluttony, not being abstention, but moderation. I guess my question is, does that tie back to when we were discussing in previous weeks when you're going to be a Nazir and you have to bring a karbon Hatat at the end of the period of Nezirut. And while there are different different explanations, one of the explanations for why you bring a Korban Hatat is that you decided to entirely abstain from partaking of wine and you forbade yourself, you know, some of what is available to enjoy in the world.   Geoffrey Stern  I think it's definitely related and I was thinking of that as well. Moderation they used to attribute it to Maimonides, the golden rule. So to speak, not not too far to the right, not too far the left, but moderation. And I do believe that in this particular law, we can call it a concession. We can call it the Crooked Timber of Humanity. But yes, we do have desires and any any form of law or religion that doesn't take into account those desires, I think, ultimately rings false. And so whether it's the ability for someone to become a Nazirite, if they have an issue with some substances, or whether it's someone to end their abstention. These are all beautiful things that are written into the Torah law that has become a part of culture, I think, and we can be proud of it. But I think we also have to understand that these should empower us to go further. And that's, I think, what's so fascinating about the discussion that we're having, and the question of how we can go farther. So I want to just move forward a little bit and talk about the history of meat eating in the Torah. And the truth is that, in Genesis, when the world is created, it does not give men permission, to eat meat, to take the soul from an animal. In fact, it says, all of the foods and the plants that I give you shall be for you for food. It's only at the time of Noah, that when Noah took those animals Two by Two into the ark, that in a sense, Noah was given sort of our rights, because he had  saved the world that he could then eat. So in Genesis 9, it says "every creature that lives shall be us to eat as with the green grasses", so it's referring back to the earlier part of Genesis where all mankind could eat was the green grasses. Now you can eat animals. And that's why, even by Jewish law, we have 613 commandments, but Jewish tradition believes that people who descended from Noah which is pretty much everybody has been descended from Noah because he was the only survivor of the flood. They cannot eat a limb from a live animal. It's called "Ever Min Ha"chai" so this was the first dietary constraint associated with being  Corniverous, eating meat. And I'd like to wonder what everybody else's takeaway in terms of Noah's loophole, so to speak, for for eating meat, I should say that nature kind of changed after the flood, maybe people didn't live as long anymore. So it's kind of a recognition in the Bible of a new epoch, a new transition. And maybe meat was necessary at that point. But certainly there are two sides in my mind, because on the one hand, Noah saved all the animals and therefore has certain rights. But I believe once you save somebody, you also have obligations. And I think that that's where these laws of supply chain and sources of our foods and how we harvest our foods come into play? What are your thoughts on that?   Adam Mintz  So thank you very much, Geoffrey The idea that no one is given permission to eat meat is very much connected to the question of authority, before the flood, man wasn't in control. And that's what led at least the way God understood it to complete anarchy, after the flood, there's a more organized system, and the organized system is that man controls animals. And in a sense, you know, the Torah tells us at the end of chapter two, that Adam couldn't find a mate. And if you read the Torah carefully, it sounds like Adam went on a date with every single animal. And he didn't find a good mate. And therefore God took a woman from his side. But it seems like the relationship between animals and humans was one of equals. After the flood, God realized that was a bad way to be, and therefore he gave people dominion over animals.   Geoffrey Stern  and I would just add that with Dominion comes responsibility. And that's why I never understand why evangelical Christians and fundamentalist Christians don't take environmentalism more seriously because it's so natural for someone who believes in The Genesis story who believes that God created the world and made us the guardian of the world, that we have to take that guardianship so seriously. I think that the the takeaway from today's discussion of these verses is at the most basic level, we have to be thoughtful about what we eat, and where our supply chain is. And I also believe that when Jesus talked about on the laws of Kashrut, he said something that could have been in the Talmud, he said, "it's more important what comes out of your mouth than what goes into it". But I think what what he was saying was very similar to the discussion that we're having. And that is that these rules, and this goes to Mike's point, should never be about reading labels only, and should never be about crossing T's and dotting "i"s, that would sell it so short, it's about our evolution, it's about our growth, it's about our ability to, to become better guardians of ourselves and of the world. And to not only take into account the fact that we have certain desires, and to master those desires, but I think also to use those desires in a good way. It's such a powerful weapon that we have, we wake up in the morning with a bounce in our step because we desire to do something and we have to harness that power, and the food that we eat in a in a way that's sanctified. And I think that if you do look at Judaism, while I am surprised that vegetarianism isn't more widespread, given the history of it. You know, why great scholars and great pietists and religious leaders don't focus on vegetarian more. But what we do have is that the time to eat meat is in a sanctified moment,  on Shabbat for instance. There zemirot talk about on Shabbat we have meat. There were people who were vegetarian by necessity not by desire, who were poor, but on Shabbat, they would have that Basar Ta'aivah" that meat of desire. So I think all of that says there's so much for us to learn about the laws of kashrut in their larger sense and I wish us all a Shabbat Shalom, of fulfilling any "taiaivah" that we have, and harnessing it in a good direction.   Adam Mintz  Amazing. Thank you, Geoffrey. Thank you, everybody. Shabbat shalom. Look forward to next week.

In this episode, we look at current market trends and discuss how they apply to our portfolios. We discuss whether it's a good time to buy, sell or HODL, is it a good time to refi or put money into a property to brig rents up, or whether or not doing nothing at all can be the best form of (in)action. --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The remote real estate investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Tom: Greetings, and welcome to the remote real estate investor. So we're a little bit over halfway through the year when this episode is going out. And what we're going to do for this episode is we're going to take a look at some stats, we are looking at the Stessa newsletter, we recommend everybody subscribed to that newsletter, where they have a lot of great sources of data. And what we're gonna do on this episode is go through the data talked about how it applies to our portfolio, our decisions on buying, selling and everything. Alright, let's get into it.   I'd love to hear before we get into it. What's going on? portfolio? All that good stuff. Emil, why don't you start us off?   Emil: Yeah, so I was chatting with Michael The other day I gave him the rundown. But the triplex or St. Louis triplex, we had the tenant leave who I mentioned to you guys, and it's been a month, and we still don't have a bid in hand for renovations for this unit. And so just know, I was a little frustrated, you know, I had to call my property manager on Monday and just be like, Man, it's been a month, like, What is going on? Like, you know, most of you go through turn, it takes like a week or two to get a bid and then you start work. It's been a month and we we don't even have the bid yet, let alone starting.   And so I chatted with him, he's let me know that he's contacted like five or six general contractors they work with, and everyone is either on vacation or, or busy. I know right now is just you know, a lot of people are flipping from what I hear from people who do a lot of renovation, it's just really hard to get people in the trades working right now. So just rough man, just rough. Want this unit turn quickly. It's been a month sitting vacant. So that's one month now rent. So I mean, best case scenario, I don't know at least another three, four weeks till this thing's even ready to be leased out. So I feel a little frustrated. Try to be patient. But it's kind of the update right now.   Tom: Is there anything you think you could have done different? Like, I don't know, going back like, a couple months from now? Or do you think it's just just kind of what it is? I'd love your post mortem.   Emil: I think there's always something to learn, I probably should have like, I don't know, lit a fire under my property managers, but a little faster. And just like, you know, the thing, the thing that was tough about this one was the tenant just left so we weren't prepared. It wasn't like they knew when the tenant was leaving. So they'd be able to just go in, do their inspections, look at things send me video, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, I don't think it should have taken this long. I should have probably, you know, the buck stops with you, you know, your property manager, as good or bad as they may be. It's always up to you to kind of like drive things. So it's probably my fault for not getting on them faster and really driving them to to make this happen. So yeah, I just got to be quicker,   Michael: Quicker on the draw quicke   Tom: Quicker on the draw.   Michael, how about yourself.   Michael: So the big development project is starting to click into place with a bunch of big hurdles. Now having been completed, we had to bring in new power. So the city got had to be coordinated with and cutting into the sidewalk. And that all got taken care of which is great to know, all the other trades can rock and roll. And then I'm working on wrapping up, I think one or two other units on an 11 unit that's getting rehabbed. So hopefully gonna get those leased out. Got some lease renewals coming up, we're able to push rents, which is exciting. And then I've got to get a parking lot, I think probably repaved or patched and then resealed at that same 11 unit. So that's a bummer. But again, kind of cost of doing business or getting quotes for that as we speak. And one was just like, outrageous. I was like, $15,000 through the parking lot. I was like, Yeah, no, not this year. So yeah, things are relatively humming along.   Tom: After you know, going through a couple of renovation it's interesting how some trades could have such high beta on the type of bids that they get, like painting is one of them like I just did a big remodel at my house and like one of the bids was no joke like $12,000 and the other was like $3,000 it's like how Is there such a gap between the two? I think some of the stuff is like more consistent like cabinets and granite you know can be but some of them there's just just wild you know, range and what they come at.   Emil: I had the same thing happened when we changed out the air conditioning in our house. We had three h back guys come out to were like 6000 to 6500 and then the third guy was like 1314 grand. I was just like, You got to be kidding me, dude. Yeah, like so far off from the other two.   Tom: That's a good way to think about the time value of money, like, you know, the extra effort in whatever hour two or three of like getting that extra bid like, you know, you're paying yourself basically, you know, in that example, like 500 bucks an hour or whatnot to, to get that extra bid to get the difference.   My quick update, so I just closed a bunch of refinances. And as things go with remote investing and investing in general, you know, just little little things happen. So like my auto pay to my old lender clicked off when it shouldn't have when I'd already transferred, my auto pay to my insurance went off and paid them. So I've been collecting rain while contacting go through the phone tree of getting reimbursement checks from the funds that they you know, took from me when they shouldn't have.   But successful though, it's just kind of an annoying thing to go through. But that's why you have reserves in place to end in patience to claw back that money that they auto draw drew from your old vendors.   Alright, let's get into it. So not a super long episode. But we're going to go through as I mentioned, the the Stessa newsletter, you guys really great newsletter. So on this article that we're going to look through just some stats and talk about how it applies to our portfolios, buying, selling all that good stuff. So this is dated June 19 2021. And some key findings from the week, median listing price has increased 12.2% over the last year. So between 2020 and of June, and now 2021 of June, median price increased 12.2%. new listings is growing has risen 4% over the previous year. And the last few stats that I'm going to whip out is the total active inventory continues to shrinking, but it slid just 42% from this time this year. So total active inventory continues to shrink. And the last one is the time on market was 33 days faster. On average, that seemed like a massive, decrease 33 days faster.   Michael: That's insane.   Tom: Anyways, I'm going to go hot seat here on some kind of like takeaways from here. So Michael, you'll I want to be last. Michael, what are some kind of initial thoughts in looking through these stats,   Michael: I just think that the appreciation that we've seen year over year has been outrageous. And that just takes the average is that 12% or 12.1%. So that's not even accounting for some of the really, really hot markets. Well, actually, that's what an average is, it's exactly accounting for it. But if you're in a very hot market, you could be seeing well above 12%, which is which is crazy. It's it's pretty amazing.   So we were talking a little bit before the episode about maybe some of the reasons to consider selling, or maybe some of the reasons to consider refinancing. And seeing numbers like that I think are both absolutely indicators of Hey, maybe it's time to think about selling and maybe it's time to think about refinancing, because the values have skyrocketed. And so when you have values going up and days on market going down and inventory going down, it's just a recipe for massive appreciation, which those numbers are showing.   So I know that I exited two properties. This year one was a condo in Southern California, that was a six unit that I've talked about, because of that fact that values had just gone up so much. And I said, You know what, let's take the money, I can deploy it better elsewhere, get it outside of California to work harder for me. And I'm glad I did at this stage in the game. If the values continue to skyrocket for another two years, I'll be one of those people that said, No, I should have held out longer. But you can't you know, hindsight is always 2020. And if it goes the other way, then I'll be even happier that I did it.   So it's just it's something to think about. And we were talking a little bit before the episode about thinking about how the dollars that are tied up in property is actually working for you. And so there's a measure a metric called the return on equity, which is something that you also want to be thinking about and calculating when you have a lot of equity in a property and determining is that still a great investment. Maybe it was when you bought it. But if things have changed, which they likely do year to year real estate, it's important to take stock of how is it performing currently, and determine for yourself as an investor is there additional opportunity that could be funded from that particular property, in the form of a cash out refi or the form of a sale. So I think it's important to again, keep stock and keep tabs on what's going on in the market.   So that was a really long winded way of saying I think for those folks that have a lot of equity in their property. It could be an interesting time to consider a sale. And the opposite side of that coin is okay, well if you sell out of a property now you likely gonna go buy something else, if you're gonna do a 1031 exchange and so if you're selling it to a hot market, but you're probably going to be buying into a hot market as well. So have a plan for both the exit, and then the subsequent purchase.   Tom: I like it. I mean, I was having a similar conversation on the Roofstock Academy, the private Slack channel where someone was saying they were getting these crazy high offers from I think it might have been Zillow or some eye buyer. And by the way, I think that's a big reason as a, as been a big input on the pushing prices up has is all this institutional money, investors going in and buying prices? I think that's, you know, not only providing a floor, but also just raising up because I think that institutional and when I say institutional, I mean, like, you know, pension funds and other funds out buying rental properties is pushing prices up?   Where was I going? I know where I was going. So on the Slack channel, someone was saying, like, Hey, I'm getting this crazy high offer, like, above the appraisal, like, should I? Am I missing something? And you know, should I sell what not? And I think the the appreciate appreciation is is real because that institution, and to that question Michael was talking about, you know, should I consider selling, I think you should have a plan in place, especially when you're selling and you're not, you're planning to use a 1031. Know that you're going to do something with that capital instead of just kind of taking it out and putting it on the sidelines.   So, for me, you know, having a lot of really good appreciation and a lot of the markets that I'm in I'm going to do some not sell the asset, but do some refinancing, like I said before, but still, you know, take place and being bullish, have continued appreciation to be seen a meal, want to jump in. So some of the stats, all this thinking about buying selling all that good stuff.   Emil: Yeah, I think Michael put it perfectly I don't have too much to add, I would just say that timing markets is insanely difficult. Like, you may feel like, Oh, this has to be a top, I felt that way two years ago and look where it is now. So timing markets is really tough. I think it's just like you said, it's a good time to take stock, maybe I'll use an example I had. So in 2020, I had, I was in four different markets. And I was like, You know what, this is too many spread too thin across too many dealing with too many property managers, I want to be in less markets, which property am I most willing to part with.   And so I decided to sell a property I had in Memphis to just be in less market. So this, I think this is just a good time, especially with a lot of money flowing around to just like take stock and just see which ones you want to hold on to, like you mentioned, which ones you want to refi and which ones are just like, you know what, not all properties are made to be held forever. Like, let me just sell this well, while things are good. So not too much to add there. Overall.   Tom: Yeah, this is a home run, if you're like near the end of your kind of investing career and just like cashing out to either like live on it or whatnot. You know, for us, like I'd say we're still relatively early and want to stack more chips before we're getting out. It's, it's great. You know, it's such a two sided coin, because, you know, I want to go do more acquisitions, and I'm in having just finished the refinancing, like I'm flush to go do some more acquisitions, more acquisitions, but it's, you know, it's just a much tighter market. But just to Michael pointed out, there are some, it could be a good time to look into some, you know, other markets where that are not, as, you know, wildly hot, and there's some good cash flow, kind of depending on what your strategy is.   Michael: You know, I'm gonna Veer, maybe, bear, bear with me. I think also in kind of looking at the market conditions. So many of us have picked a lane and investing lane and have really stuck there. Because it's been easy, or it's worked for a long time, and things have changed. And so now, I also think it's important to be considering alternative investment styles or alternative investment classes. And so if you've bought turnkey single family homes, that's been your lane, and that's worked really well for you, well, maybe now you're priced out of that particular asset class.   So maybe it's time to consider a rehab or a slight rehab or a cosmetic rehab. Because those properties maybe are less appealing to owner occupants. And so those aren't being bid up like crazy. And so that gives you a slight advantage or a slight competitive edge, or you take on a much bigger rehab or you go to a small multifamily or commercial multifamily, because the owner occupants aren't going to buy those to live in. So while it's important to figure out what works and what has worked for you in the past, it's also important to stay flexible, and be able to pivot because we do find ourselves in pretty much uncharted territory. So I think it's important to be flexible with yourself and even if you said, This is what I'm going to do, this is where I found my niche. It's important to not stop learning, but again, to be able to be flexible and pivot into something else.   And also, I mean, that's not to say like, I was just gonna say, to kind of follow that up and it doesn't mean that you have to totally give up on whatever was working for you previously because Who knows this might be a point in time, and things are going to change yet again. And so you can absolutely keep your your toes in the water your finger on the pulse of whatever it was you were doing previously, it's not like you have to have blinders on and say, Well, I did that this doesn't work anymore. No, I have to go do this. No, you can absolutely just expand the purview and say, Okay, well, this is what I was doing. Now, it's not working as well. So let me go learn how to do this other thing. But also, if that other thing doesn't work in the market conditions change, I can go back to what I was doing originally.   So it's not an all or nothing, it's not so black and white. But I absolutely encourage people to continue learning, continue getting educated, and continue learning about what different strategies are available and what might be a really good fit, given your current experience level, your current financial picture and the current time of the market. So again, soapbox demount, dismount,   Tom: The last thing I'll add on is, you know, we're talking about considerations on selling and refinancing. That's not to say that you can't do acquisitions right now. But I would say it's just, you know, it might take evaluating a few more properties to find that one that hits your buy box that you want to own. So there's definitely, you know, still opportunities for sure to do acquisitions. But I know, just as things get a little bit tighter, and prices are continuing to go up, perhaps it's underwriting a few more properties than you would normally underwrite. Right? And just continuing to look at some some more volume.   Michael: Yep. Sometimes you got to get really aggressive with the legwork to be able to get something to squeeze out. And then I mean, I think there's not enough emphasis that gets put on that the third option between tapping and equity or selling is that I was just like, do nothing. And I think we always talk about like doing something What's going on? What updates Do we have, you know, what are other people doing in the market, when in reality, so much of the time is like, literally spent doing nothing? Sitting on properties and Emil, I know, you talked about that in your in your cash out refi, I think it was your indie property, you basically got all your cash back, because you sat on the thing for five years, or four years, whatever it was.   So oftentimes, when the market is doing something exciting, whether massive, high or massive, low, we want to scramble to do something. But in reality, I think so much of real estate investing is is boring, and is watching the grass grow. So don't feel like you have to do something, again, I think we're gonna, we're hitting this point multiple times, but just take stock of where you are, and what it is you're trying to accomplish and see if there is something you can do. And if there's not great and don't feel bad about that.   Emil: I got a fourth option that goes against what you just said, it is activity. But let's think about, What about reinvesting in what you have, right? Like maybe you haven't updated your property in five years, rents have gone up, right, you can, maybe you put 10 grand in the property, and now you can raise it $200. And you can figure out what's my cash on cash return there versus going and having to buy a new property, maybe you can get a better cash on cash, by putting money in your existing property, updating it and just raising the rent. So that's, that's maybe a fourth option too.   Michael: It's it's a great point. And that's I've talked about it on prior episodes, that's what I'm looking to do, kind of currently is to do more with less, so to speak, in terms of acquisitions and unit calendar, that kind of thing, to streamline, and make better the stuff that you already have, can likely pay dividends way down the road, as opposed to go on to buy something else. Yeah, I think that's a really, really good point. That's a really good point.   To Emil's point in thinking about how is that money best deployed, and what kind of cash on cash you can get? For those of you that aren't familiar with how to calculate that or what that looks like? Basically, if you take 20 grand, and you can go put it into a property, you can calculate how much is that going to generate? If you have a loan on the property, if you're buying it all cash or what have you, but take that same 20 grand go put it into a property in terms of updates, something you already own, figure out how much additional revenue you're going to be able to generate, and then just solve for your cash on cash that way.   So again, it's just the math is the same, but it just involves a property upgrade as opposed to a property purchase, you're still putting money into a deal, it just happens to be one that you already own. So then you can figure out what the delta is in cash flow. And that's your cash on cash return. And so you can compare that against buying something versus updating something or upgrading something to determine what's the best and highest use of those dollars. And then of course you can decide, hey, this might not be the highest and best use but I know it's going to be easier I'm going to make probably more valuable or what have you so really important to think about and again, great point Emil.   Tom: Alright, well that's the episode if you enjoyed the episode, please like subscribe, all of that, we greatly appreciate it. And as always, happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.   Emil: Happy investing.

Enjoy another round of questions and answers during a recent Marketing Secrets Live episode. Register for the next Marketing Secrets Live episode at ClubHouseWithRussell.com Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets Show. During this episode, you're going to have a chance to listen to some of the live Q and A. And this one got really fun. We had some really cool directions and angles that we went on. I think there's something for everybody through this Q and A, so hopefully you enjoy it. On top of that, don't forget: If you want to get your question answered live, make sure you subscribe at clubhousewithrussell.com. It's clubhousewithrussell.com. Go there. Subscribe to the room. And that way, you'll be notified the next time I decide to go live, and you can jump on and get your questions answered. These questions this week were really fun. A lot of different directions. I think you guys will get a lot of value from it. So that said, we'll cue the theme song. When we get back, we'll jump directly into the questions and answers. Yhennifer: Awesome. So our first guest here is Tracy. Tracy is guiding you with tax reduction strategies! All right, Tracy. Thank you so much for being here. What question do you have for Russell? Tracy: Hi, Russell! This is Tracy Lo, and I am so inspired by your stories all the time. I've learned so much from both you from afar, and also Myron. So my question is: How do you keep all your parts moving? Do you have a strategy for keeping your mental state as well as your philanthropy and your business together? What is your strategy? Russell: Oh, that's a great question! I would say I've been lucky, because when I first started this business, it was me trying to figure things out. And I was more chaotic than I am now. Anyone on my team is laughing, because they know that it's still kind of chaos. I think from the outside, things look organized, and things like that. But it's really surrounding myself with a good team of people. People who have a similar mission, who are trying to do the same things that we're doing together. It's having a good team of people. And then a lot of it is just figuring out how to build the things into your routines that'll get you the success you're looking for. Right? So for me, I know that for the first... ah, man... seven to eight years of my entrepreneur journey, I wasn't into health. And so I gained a ton of weight. And I had a... You know? I was more lethargic. I didn't even know I was unhealthy until I decided to start getting in shape and getting back in. And all of a sudden, by getting back in shape, it increased my energy. I felt better. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh! I need to weave this, now, into my routine to make sure I don't lose it again." So it became part of my routine where these things are all tied into it. Right? And so now it's easy, because it's just part of what I do. Mentally: "Okay. How do I stay sharp?" Well, if I'm going to be successful, I get paid to think for a lot of people. So if I'm going to be successful, my mind has got to be sharp. So I got to go listen to podcasts, and read books. And putting myself in situations where I can keep sharp and keep figuring out, "What's working today? What are the things that are working the best?" And so I figure out what all those things are, and then I put them into my schedule. I say, "Okay. I need to build this into my routine where I have time to listen to podcasts, or read books, or go to things that are going to help stimulate my mind so I can stay high there." And then charities. Right? When we decided... It's funny, because I get hit. I'm sure all of you guys here, you're hit by a million people wanting to... "I want to start donating money, maybe, to charities!" And for me, it's like, "I don't want to be the person that just gives money and then forgets about it." I want to make sure the things that I'm passionate about, so... Like Village Impact, we're very passionate about that. So it was like, "Okay. How do we make this part of what we do?" And so it wasn't just like... Give them a check, and then a year later, figure it out. It was like, "Okay. If we're going to do this with them, let's be very strategic about that." So I said, "Okay. Let's..." Todd and I, when we started ClickFunnels, we said, "Okay. Let's set up where every time somebody creates a funnel inside of ClickFunnels and it gets at least 100 visitors..." So it's a live funnel. "We'll donate a dollar to Village Impact." And so we started that seven years ago. And the first year, I think our check we gave them was... I don't know, $15 grand. And then the next year, it was $30 grand. And then $60 grand. And then $100 grand. So it gets bigger and bigger, but it's now part of the mission. So I don't have to think about it, because it's built into what we're doing. And now every year at Funnel Hacking Live, I'm like, "Stu and Amy, come on stage!" And we have a big old check. You know? Now, it's six-figure checks. And they get bigger. And it's eventually going to be seven-figure checks. But it's built into what we're doing, and so I don't have to think about it again. You know? O.U.R. is the same thing. We did the big launch where we launched with the documentary, and it did well, but then it wasn't consistent. So we're building a whole platform now that'll be a consistency thing, where it's now that... This mission is always being worked on, because there's a platform, and there's someone in charge of it. There's a team member who... that becomes their sole focus. And now it's weaved into it. So it's figuring out the things that are important to you that help you achieve the goals you want, and then figuring out... How do you weave those things into your routine, or your business model, or your whatever, so that it just happens and you don't have to think about it? Because it's too hard. We have so many things we're all doing. If you have to have the mental power to think about it every time, then nothing ever happens. So that's kind of how I do it. And I hope that helps. And it's also surrounding yourself by amazing humans who help fulfill those missions as well. Tracy: Thanks so much, Russell. This is Tracy Lo, CPA, passing the mic. Thank you. Russell: Awesome! Thank you, Tracy. Appreciate it. Yhennifer: All right. Thank you for being here, Tracy. Now we're going to go on to Jermaine. Jermaine is in the real estate industry. Jermaine, what question do you have for Russell? Jermaine: Hey, Russell! Hey, everyone! I just had a quick question. I was wondering... Well, I got two questions. The first one: I didn't quite catch that book that you recommended? Russell: Was it Atlas Shrugged? Jermaine: What was that again? Russell: Atlas Shrugged. Jermaine: Yep. That's it. Russell: It's a really big book, so it takes commitment. It's insanely big. But as an entrepreneur and producer, you will love it. Especially in the real estate market. Jermaine: Okay. And I also wanted to know... while I have you... I wanted to know: Throughout all your time that you've changed the world and inspired people, what was your biggest business challenge that you had to overcome? And how did you overcome it? Russell: Oh, that's a great question! You know what's interesting, is that at every level, there's a new challenge. And so it changes. And every time when you're going through it, it seems like the biggest thing in the world. And when you look back, it's like, "Oh, that was actually really simple." But in the heat of the moment, it's hard. For the beginning part, it was just me believing that I was worth it. Right? I was the kid who struggled in school. I was never that smart. The only thing I was ever good at was wrestling. And I'm trying to start a business, and then I had a million doubts of, "I'm not worthy. I don't know how to do this. I'm not smart enough. I don't..." At the time, I didn't like to read! You know? First, it's that mental battle. I think for most entrepreneurs when they start their journey, it's the mental battle of just believing that you're worth it, that you can actually do it. And so for me, that one took a while. And then when I finally was like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm not..." I always thought I was a dumb kid growing up, because I struggled in school. So I remember having the realization after I started having success. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm not dumb! I can learn things! If I'm interested in the book, I can actually read it and enjoy it!" So that was the first big hurdle for me. Right? The next one was... As I got to a point in my business that was like... It was just me, and I was juggling a million things. I was like, "Okay. How do I... I can't keep doing this. I'm going to drown eventually." So I was bringing on employees to the team. And man, I can't tell you how bad I was at that! I hired all my friends. All my friends, I just hired initially, because I was like, "Oh. They're cool. I'll hang out with them!" So I hired all my friends. It turns out my friends are morons... No, I'm just kidding! Well, kind of. Some of them were... But no, I love them all. But it was like I hired all my friends, and they didn't know what to do. And I didn't know how to teach them. So I was like... Dude, I was working while they were all goofing off in the other room. And they wanted help, but I couldn't teach them, because I was too busy trying to make money to pay them. And so it took me years to figure out, "How do you get a team and get the right people in place?" And that was the next big challenge. Right? Then it was like, "How do you actually create something that's not just an offer?" Right? That could be a long-standing business. We tried for years to figure that out. And eventually, ClickFunnels was the business that became more than just an offer for me where it was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is a platform, something that can grow bigger." And then inside of that, there has been so many challenges. How do you scale a company like that? You know? How do you scale the support? How do you go from five employees to 500 employees? There's just different challenges to every step. And so I think that there's been a lot of them. But the biggest thing I would say is that the key that I find at every tier, the thing... It took me a while to figure this out initially. And now, I've gotten better at realizing, "Oh, the pattern to solve these is always the same." It is... You can call it "funnel hacking," call it, "modeling," whatever it is... is I try to always connect to the people that are a tier above me or two tiers above me. Right? So right now, we're trying to... I literally am paying somebody who's gone here, done this. And we do a one-hour call every other week with him. He's built multiple companies, software companies, to the billion-dollar mark. And so he's been down the path. And so we get on a call. I'm like, "Okay. Here's where we're stuck. What am I going to do? What would you do?" And I'm asking questions and modeling, like, "Hey. Show me three businesses that have done what you're talking about." And he'll show me. We'll find it. And we look at it, and we reverse-engineer it. We come back and apply it. And so the key is just really figuring out... It's modeling. It's figuring out who's already done the thing you're doing. Find that person. Pay them money. Get to know them. Join their coaching. But whatever it is, get around the people who have already done the thing you're trying to do. Because for them, it's simple. Right? For us, as we're going through it, it's really, really difficult. But the person who's already done it, looking back, it's simple. For me, now, the mindset and belief of, "I can do this," is simple now. I get it. I can help somebody with that really, really easily. Whereas in the moment, it was impossible. It felt impossible. Right? Launching a software company felt like an impossible moment, and now it's super easy. So it's finding people who... The thing you're struggling with now is super easy, because they've already done it multiple times. Getting around them. Hiring them. Paying them. And learning how to think like them. Right? It's always a shift in thinking and belief. And so it's coming back and saying, "Okay. I've got to think like them. I've got to believe like them." I think a lot of times, many of us... and I see this a lot with people who hire me... they hire me, or they hire a coach, and then they try to get the coach to believe or think like they do. And I'm the opposite: I'm not coming to you to try to influence your beliefs. I'm coming to you to change my beliefs. And that's a hard thing to do. Right? Our ego gets in the way a lot of times. So it's coming and saying, "Okay. I'm a blank slate. I'm going to do whatever you say." In fact, it's funny, because inside our community, we have the... Kaelin Poulin started it with the whole hashtag, #dowhatrussellsays. And at first, I was really embarrassed by it. But now, it's so cool! Because it's like, "Yeah. If you're hiring me to be your coach, just do what I say!" If I hire a coach, I just do what they say. I literally just... In fact, I'm working on my fourth book right now. And I have a quote. One of my friends wrote this in a blog post. He was talking about his morning routine, and why he does this really weird thing. And he says in the thing, he said, "People ask me why I do this." He said, "Because Tony Robbins told me so, and I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence." And so for me, it's always been this joke: Now, when I hire a coach, whatever they say, I say, "I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence." Right? If I hire someone, I just believe them inherently, because I did the work ahead of time to see if I'm going to believe them. If I believe them, I give them my money. And I do whatever they say, and I don't deviate from that. Right? So people in my world say hashtag, "#dowhatrussellsays." For me, it's hashtag, "#dowhatstevencollinssays." That's the guy who I hired right now who is mentoring me. Whatever he says, I just do it. I don't fight. I don't question. He's been there a million times. And so I just do what all giant... You know? I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. I obey whoever I pay to teach me something, because they know what I don't know. And so for me, that's kind of the process: Find the hurdle. Find out who's already done it. Get that person. And then obey them, and just follow what they say to a T. So I hope that helps. Jermaine: That made perfect sense. So you basically trust yourself, and then you do what your coaches say? Russell: 100 percent. Yep! I do the work ahead of time. Before I hire the coach, I got to make sure I believe this coach is right. But if I believe they're right, then yes, I just do whatever they say. And so I see people, sometimes, blindly will sign up for coaching, or they'll hire a mentor, or whatever. And then they just kind of blindly follow the person. The person might not be right for them. But I do the homework ahead of time. And then when I know, "Okay. I'm committed. This is the person." Then I go all in, and I just put on blinders and follow them. Jermaine: Got you. I appreciate that. What was that book again? I'm going to have to write that down. Russell: Atlas Shrugged. So the way to remember it is Atlas is the god that's holding the weight of the world on his shoulders. And the premise of the book is: The producers, the entrepreneurs, people like us who are trying to... We're literally holding the weight of the world on our shoulders. Right? We're creating companies. We're creating jobs, and doing all these things. What would happen if Atlas just shrugged and walked away from his responsibilities? So the book is about that. What happens when the producers get so much pressure from government and society where it's no longer worth it to them, so they shrug, and they walk away from their responsibilities? And so that's the premise of the book, which is so fascinating. I'm actually listening to it again right now, which is fun. But it's a 1500-page book. It's intense. If you listen to the audiobook, it's eight audiobooks. That's how big it is. But man, it's worth it! Jermaine: I'm going to grab both of them right now. I've got all of your books. I've been following you for a while. My favorite one is the DotCom Secrets. Russell: Oh, very cool! Thanks, man! I appreciate that. Yhennifer: Awesome! Thank you. Jermaine: You're welcome. Yhennifer: ... Jermaine. Thank you for being here today. I'm going to reset the room really quickly. We are, right now, listening to the Marketing Secrets Live podcast. This room is actually being recorded. Make sure you follow the house at the top so that you can get a notification when Russell goes live again here. Now, we are going to give the mic to Jeff. Welcome, Jeff! He is a product launch expert, has made over $8 million from 22 launches in three years. What question do you have for Russell, Jeff? Russell: What's up, Jeff? Jeff: Hey, Russell! What's going on, buddy? Russell: Good to hear from you. Jeff: So hey, being in your inner circle for the last five years, I've had the awesome pleasure of watching all the big house marketing initiatives that you've incorporated into the funnels that you and the rest of the ClickFunnels community launched, and also at your annual Funnel Hacking Live event with Village Impact and O.U.R., as you mentioned. So what's been cool to see is the more funnels and events you launch, the more you're able to give back, which is awesome. So how are you thinking about incorporating that live launch strategy that you've been doing with, perhaps, more of an evergreen launch strategy now? With things like OFA, your quarterly Two Comma Club Live virtual event, and now the DotCom Secrets Summit that you just launched, with some of these... trying to also bring in these new live launches. I know you have Funnel Hacking Live coming up in a few months. Can you just talk about... Each month, what are you looking at in terms of evergreen versus live? Russell: Yeah. That's a good question. That's something we could talk about for a long time. You know? I think it's interesting. I watch somebody like Tony Robbins, who... He does UPW four times a year. He does Date with Destiny twice a year. And he does these things. And he's been doing it live for decades now. Three or four decades, he's been doing these events. If you go to them, they're very similar every single time. And for me, it's tough, because if I go back and I teach the same thing twice, I want to pull my hair out! You know? And I'm like, "I don't know how Tony has been so consistent for so long." And so for me, it's like there's this blend. Right? There's things that... The DotCom Secrets book came from me from a decade of me teaching these principles. I was doing events, and speaking at other people's events, and teaching these principles. And finally, I was like, "If I have to tell this story about the value ladder one more time, I'm going to kill myself." Right? So that's when I finally was like, "I'm going to write a book." So I wrote a book. And it was like, "Here it is. It's now evergreen. I can give it to people. And I don't want to talk about this thing again." Right? A similar thing happened with Expert Secrets. And you were in the inner circle, and I was... We spent three years geeking out on webinars, and conversions, and psychology, and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, "I don't ever want to talk about this again." So I turned it into a book. And I was like, "Hey, there's the blueprint!" And so I look at the online stuff through a very similar way. Right? We did the Two Comma Club Live event that first time, and then my energy was there. I was excited. It was fun. We created it. We launched it. It was amazing! But then, I was like... For me, it's like art. I didn't want to just be like, "Hey, it's done!" And walk away from it. But I didn't want to teach it again. So it's like, "Okay. How do I turn this experience into something that's now evergreen?" That we can keep the message going on. Right? So that when I'm dead and gone, my kids can keep running the ads, and keep running the event, and it'll keep producing. Because for me, all the stuff we do is art. And so I want to sustain it. So I'm always looking: Is there something I can do that I can create it, but then it'll last? It'll live beyond myself. Right? If you've read Ryan Holiday's book, The Perennial Seller... In fact, he spoke last year at Funnel Hacking Live about that book. I was like, "I want you to talk about Perennial Seller!" He was like, "I've written eight books since then!" I was like, "I know, but that's my favorite one! You've got to talk about that." But in Perennial Seller, he talks about the difference between art that lasts forever versus stuff that happens and is gone. Right? A good example is in movies. Right? Avatar, for a long time, was the greatest selling movie of all time. But if you ask someone to quote an Avatar line, there's not a person on this Earth who can remember anything from that movie. Right? It was a great seller, but then it died. Right? And so many people in our industry do a big sell, and then it dies. And it disappears. Versus you create a movie like Star Wars, where it lives beyond itself... It has legacy. It's a perennial seller. It'll continue to do well for a million years from now. Or you have TV shows. Right? You look at Seinfeld versus Friends: Friends was very much successful in the moment, but then it hasn't lived on as well as something like Seinfeld, which has lived on in perpetuity for so long. Much more of a perennial seller. And so I was always trying to create things that could be perennial sellers. And so when I do do something like that where I think it can last beyond itself, where things are strategic enough that they're not tactical, and they're going to change. Where they're strategic and we can do it, I want those things to live forever. So again, that's the Summits. That's the Two Comma Club Live, and things like that. But then we have our big hits. Right? Funnel Hacking Live, it's a big show. It's what's working now. You know? We put all this energy and this effort into it, but we know it's a one-time show. Right? And it happens. It's done. It's over. And then next year, we're going to plan a new one. And we can't evergreen Funnel Hacking Live. Right? It's a little bit different. And so it's just looking at those kind of things. You know? Sometimes, you're going to have an Avatar hit. And you should totally go and take the 100 billion dollars it makes and cash it, because that's awesome. But other things you create, you want the longevity. And so for me, that's how I'm looking at things. It's just like, "Okay. What things have longevity? What things do I want to be a perennial seller? What things do I think can last just beyond a product launch or beyond a thing?" And as soon as it's done, then it's like, "Okay. How do we morph that into something now that can last beyond the moment?" So that's kind of how I look at things in my head, how I figure things out. And then on top of that, it's just... You know? We're still kind of figuring it out. So some things, we're finding that we launch and we make the perennial version, they don't last long. They're still there. So people can find them, but they're not... The longevity is not there. We can't continue to buy ads to it. Whereas One Funnel Way, it's crazy! To this day, One Funnel Way has been running almost three years now. We fill up 1500 every two weeks to a 100 dollar, paid challenge. And it continues to convert. It continues to work. It continues to... That one is, of all the things we've done, the most perennial, and just continues to work. And I wouldn't have guessed that going into it until we tried to make the evergreen version. And it kept working. And it's like, "Oh, my gosh! This is amazing!" So yeah. I don't know if that answers the question. But kind of... That's how I think through things, and how I'm looking at stuff. Myron: Can I ask you a question about that, Russell? Russell: Yeah, Myron! I'd love to. Myron: What advertising methodologies are you using to put 1500 people in a challenge every two weeks? Because that sounds phenomenal! Russell: Yeah! A couple things: Number one is we pay 100 percent affiliate commission. So the only people who go through it refer people, and it's 100 bucks, and they get 100 percent of that 100 bucks. Number two is that I can spend 100... I can lose money. So I can spend 150, 200 dollars to sell a challenge. So I can spend a lot of money to do it, because again, 100 percent of the money goes directly back into advertising. We're not trying to make money on the challenge. As you know, all the money is in the back. And amateurs focus on the front end. So we liquidate it. 100 percent of our money goes into the ad spin. And number three, I think, is just... The message is right. For some reason, that message, it lives long. Right? The people, if it's their very first time... You look at the headline. It's like, "If you want to launch your first or your next funnel." So if it's their first one, it's like, "Oh, this is going to help me." Number two, it's like if you've launched a funnel but, "I need to go back and do this again," it gives you a chance to review it and go back through it. And I'd say the last thing is we weave that theme into all of our offers now. If you look at everything, every offer leads back to OFA. You buy all my books? OFA is in that sales flow. You do one of our challenges, it leads back to OFA. So it's weaved into everything now. So it's plugged into the back end of everything we're doing. And so no matter what somebody buys, all roads lead to the One Funnel Way challenge eventually, which is pretty cool. Myron: Wow! Russell: Yeah. And we're working on, now- Myron: Great stuff. Russell: We're working on a One Funnel Away e-commerce version of the OFA challenge next, which I'm really excited for as well. So anyway- Dan: And you do that live every two weeks? Russell: So I don't. I recorded it live once. And we have a team, now, though. So we have a team of... One person runs it, and three or four coaches. And so every week, they reset a new Facebook group. And then they're in there full-time answering questions. And then they stream. The trades that were live at one time, they stream them into the Facebook group. And all the interaction happens there. So it feels very alive. People know it's not alive, but it feels very live. It's executed live. It's not like logging the members in and watch... Day-one videos. We try to replicate the experience as close as possible. And again, it's not just like, "Go watch this video and hope for the best." Literally, they watch the video, and then there's coaches in there who are answering questions, who are getting them to do the homework, who are... Full-time, their job is in there, now. Because it's been so profitable for us, man, we left... I always tell people: One of the biggest problems that us entrepreneurs have is we create something and then we move on to the next thing. And OFA was the first thing that our group created it, and were like, "There's something magic here." And we left somebody behind. So Shane on our team, we left him behind and said, "Your job is to continue to make this better and to run it." And then he hired three or four coaches, and now there's a team of people who, full-time, all they do is make sure OFA is happening, and it's consistent, and it works. And because we left somebody behind, that's why the fulfillment continues to improve week after week, although I'm not creating new content week after week. Dan: And it converts similar with the streaming replay as it did with you doing it live? Russell: Yeah. Yeah. Dan: That's- Russell: It was easier to sell people in initially: "Yeah, go sign up for it! Go to onefunnelway.com and watch the process!" But yes- Dan: That's what I'm going to do right now. Russell: 100 percent. 100 percent. And like I said, three years, we've been running that thing. We launched initially, and then we did it live again four or five months ago just to kind of refresh the whole thing. But other than that, it's the same thing. And it runs on autopilot. Dan: And the affiliate aspect is really important, because everybody that comes in, you then say, "Hey. Do you want to make money? Did you love this challenge? Bring somebody in." And they get a commission. Can I just ask one question about that? Russell: Yeah. Let me give one clarity, and then ask the question. So the clarity is- Dan: Yeah. Russell: also right when they first come in. It's like, "You paid 100 bucks for this. Do you want this to be free? Invite a friend." It's right when they sign up. It's like, "Bring by a friend," and now it's free for them, because they just get one person to sign up, and now it's free. Dan: Okay. That... Okay. So that's my question, is: You guys have really, truly went just deep in the affiliate game. And I almost feel like, sometimes, going all-in on the affiliate game is like... I'd rather pay my customers and my clients than pay Zuckerberg. Do you know what I mean? Honestly! And so my question to you, on that, is: How do you train somebody who is a normal customer, who is not an affiliate or a traditional super affiliate, to actually refer people to you? Obviously, you have to tell them, "Hey, here's how you refer people." What's your best tip for that? Russell: Yeah. The best tip is you have to think about it differently. A lot of people are thinking about, "I'm going to make him an affiliate, and teach him about affiliate marketing!" And the average customer, they're not going to be an affiliate. Right? You look at... The people in e-com space do this really well, a lot of times, and other places, where it's... The position is not how to make a bunch of money as an affiliate. The position is, "How do you get this product for free?" Right? It's like, "Hey. You get three people to sign up for this, or..." You know? Whatever. For me, it's like, "You get one person to sign up, and now it's free." That's how you position it. And they're like, "Oh, my gosh! I can tell my brother!" And then, "I'm doing this challenge, too! I'm going to invite my friend, and I actually get paid for it?" And so you get them passing it around. They're not looking at it as a business opportunity as much as, "How do you get the thing you just bought for free? How do you get your money back very, very, quickly?" That's the shift. Right? Because they're not going to go sign up 100 people, but they are going to get one or two. Right? And if every person brings in one or two, it becomes this self-fulfilling machine that just keeps growing, and things like that. And so it's just looking at it differently, and just showing... That's the positioning. Right? It's not how to be affiliates. It's, "Get this thing for free by telling three people to-" Dan: So you're not giving them any sort of extensive training? You're just pretty much hoping that one customer will refer, maybe, a couple... few... people. But it's a consistent thing, rather than, "Hey. Here's this training on how to refer more people." And you... But- Russell: Yeah. Because they're not going to buy ads. They're not going to... They don't have an email list. But they're going through this. They believe in it now, and they don't want to feel dumb. And it's like, "If I can get my friends in this and do it together, now it's a fun thing. And we can study together." And that's the- Dan: Oh, the accountability! Oh, my gosh! That's so good! Okay. All right. That was awesome. That was gold. Russell: Awesome. Yhennifer: Light bulbs are going off here! I love it! I hope everyone is taking notes. I want to add one more thing to the OFA stuff, Russell, if it's okay with you? Russell: Yeah. Yhennifer: Because I see what goes on in the Facebook community, and I just wanted to add that people sometimes buy the OFA more than once just because they want the accountability of the coaches. They come back. They see that it has so much value that they're like, "100 dollars? I'm in!" So we also see that as well. Russell: Yeah. The OFA lifers, it's almost a continuity program. They re-sign up every single month, because they don't want to lose the connection with the team! Yhennifer: Yes! Yes. It's amazing. So if you have not done the One Funnel Way, go to onefunnelway.com. It's an awesome, awesome offer. Yhennifer: Okay. We have one more guest here, Michael Hoffman. He's a digital marketer and an owner of a digital media agency. So Michael, what question do you have for Russell? Michael: Hi, everyone! Thanks so much for having me up here. Russell, thanks so much for providing all the value. You mentioned something before, that there was this hashtag, "#dowhatrussellsays." And earlier this year, I read Traffic Secrets, started my podcast. The other day, I finished your new Expert Secrets. I'm going to work on my weekly webinar now. So doing what Russell says actually works! So my question is a little different, and more mindset-related. You have an extensive past in... almost professional sports. You were a wrestler for many, many years. And you made that transition into entrepreneurship. And I have a past as a professional basketball player, and also transitioned into... first, to a full-time job, and then entrepreneurship. And for me, it was a very difficult time to shift my identity. And I just wanted to get your... yeah, basically... experiences on how you experienced that phase, to transition from full-time sports to entrepreneurship, and what helped you to complete this identity shift? Russell: Oh, very cool! It's interesting. I think... Not always, but I feel like athletes often do really good in entrepreneurship. And I think the reason why... I've thought about this a lot... It's because for me, with wrestling... I'm sure it's the same for you with basketball... Every day, for me, I'd step out on the mat. And there was the guy I'm going against. And we'd wrestle. And a lot of times, I lost. A lot of times, I won. But I got used to failure, and it didn't destroy my identity when I failed. Right? I feel like a lot of people get into entrepreneurship, and they're so scared that if they try something and it fails, that it means that they're a failure. Versus in wrestling, I'd fail, and I'm like, "Cool! Now I know how to beat this guy!" Watch the film, figure it out next time I go back, and I try to beat him again. Right? And it's a different mindset where failure meant I could learn something, versus failure meant I was a failure. And I see that so many times in entrepreneurs, where they'll sit in club house rooms, or podcasts, or read books for years, and years, and years, and never do anything, because they're so scared of that failure. Whereas athletes have experienced it. You know? I lost tons of matches! You know? So I'm used to that failure, and I'm okay with it, and I don't label myself as a "failure." So I think that's why athletes do well, just because they have had that experience. But on the other question, that identity shift: So it was interesting. So my wrestling career, that was my life, as you know. It was probably similar to you. I was a wrestler. If you asked me, "Russell, what are you?" I'd go, "I'm a wrestler." And so I was. And I wrestled all the way through college. And I remember at the end of college is when I started learning some of the internet business and figured things out. And my senior year, I ended up losing the Pac-10 Tournament. I thought I was going to go to Nationals and place. And I had... My entire life, I was focused on this goal. And I ended up losing the Pac-10s and not qualifying for the National Tournament my senior year, which was horrible for me. Right? My entire everything just stopped. I remember sitting there on the side of the mat crying, and just... "It's done. I can't even achieve my goal if I wanted to. It's gone! There's no..." It was weird not being able to achieve a goal. And I remember, luckily for me, I had this entrepreneurship thing happening at the time that I was learning about. Because if I didn't have something, I think I would have gone into this downward spiral of depression just knowing that the thing I'd been dreaming about for 20 years, I know longer... It's physically impossible for me to do, now. It's out of... It's impossible. And so for me, luckily, I had this business. And I started focusing my time and energy there. And it gave me something to do, to focus on a new goal. And that was the big goal, the big thing. And so, because I was able to transition pretty easily... Because I had just... I was trying to avoid the pain of my old identity dying, and so I had to shift over here. And so I think, for people who are making that transition, it's... I mean, you used the word "identity shift," which was the right word. Right? It's like you have to shift that identity. And I don't know how to... I mean, in fact, we have Anthony Trucks, who is going to be speaking at Funnel Hacking Live specifically on identity shifting yourself, which I'm excited for. He's geeked out on this at a level that I don't think anyone else really has, and so it's going to be fun to have him go into it on the process. Because I don't know exactly what the process was, other than that I knew that I shifted. And then I started looking at it like a sport. I said, "Okay. What's the goal? What am I going to win?" You know? "Who are my teammates? Who do I got to get to know? Who are the competitors? Who do I have to beat?" And I just used the same mindset. And I think that a lot of people come into business, and they look at it different than a sport, which is interesting when you look at it. It's like, "Oh, I'm here to..." You know? I don't know. I did a podcast three or four years ago. I still remember where I was at when I recorded it, because when we came out with ClickFunnels, for me, it was... It's a combat sport. I'm looking: "Okay, who are the competitors? Who are the people out there?" And at first, it was like, "Leepages! That's who I have to beat!" Because in wrestling, that's what I did: "All right. Who is the guy that I got to beat?" I looked at him. We studied film. We figured it out, and we got to the point where I could beat that person. And we found the next person in the next tier up. We found the person, identified the target, reverse-engineered their style, and learned how to beat them. And so for me, it was the same thing. Leepages was the first person on our hit list. Right? So we came out. And those who were around when we launched ClickFunnels, it was very aggressive. It was not... You know? I was like, "This is our competitors. We're going after them." And we went after them. Then we got to the point where we beat Leepages, and we passed them. After we passed them, it was like, "Hey, who is the next competitor?" For us, it was Infusionsoft. And I was like, "There's no way we can beat Infusionsoft. They're huge!" But I'm like, "That's the goal!" And so we figured out who they were. We reverse-engineered it. You know? Went after them, and ended up far surpassing them. And it was interesting, because I remember the CEO and me... He's a really nice guy. But he messaged me one time, and he asked me... He was like, "Why do you hate Infusionsoft so much?" And I'm like, "I don't hate you! I'm grateful for you! You're the person..." I needed somebody to get me motivated. Otherwise, as a competitor, if I'm just... I'm not here just to make money. That was what inspired. It inspired me. It was the victory, trying to figure out the next person who we're going after. Right? And I told... It's kind of like that scene in Batman, The Dark Knight, where Joker asks Batman, "Why do you hate me?" And he's like, "I don't hate you! You fulfill me! I need you! Without you, there's no me!" Right? And so for me, that was the transition. It was like... I didn't take the competitiveness out of me. I kept it. Everything I did that drove me in wrestling, I kept that. But I focused it over here in business. And so the identity shift wasn't huge. It was just a different game. Right? Same athlete. Same competitive nature. Same everything. But the game was different, and so I had to figure out the game, figure out the rules, figure out the players, figure out the competition, and then make it fun for me. And so for me, that's kind of, I think, how I was able to make that transition. Yeah. I don't know if that answers the question. But that's kind of the mindset behind, for me, how I was going to make that transition. And at Funnel Hacking Live, Anthony Trucks will show us the actual process to shift identity, which I'm so excited for! Michael: Awesome! Thank you so much! That was really helpful, just listening to your experience and hearing it from someone else. And I like the competitive aspect, and the perseverance that we have as athletes to transition that into entrepreneurship. Russell: Yeah. Well, very cool, man. Thanks for jumping on the show. I appreciate it! Yhennifer: Awesome! Thank you, Michael, for being here. And Russell, I think that wraps up our Marketing Secrets podcast today! Russell: How fun! Well, thanks, you guys, all for jumping on and hanging out. We're going to continue to do these. I'm having fun with it so far. So hopefully, you guys are as well. For those who are listening to the recording: If you want to make sure you get on the next live one and maybe get your question answered live, go to clubhousewithrussell.com. That'll redirect you to our clubhouse page. Go follow the room, and we'll do this again soon. Thank you for all of our guest speakers who jumped on: Keenya, Dan, and Myron. I appreciate you guys jumping on and sharing your thoughts, as well. Hopefully, some of the conversations we had were stimulating and helped you think about yourself, think about your charity, think about your funnels, all this stuff. Hopefully, you guys enjoyed it. If you did, let us know! And if you want to hear the recording of this, make sure you subscribe to the Marketing Secrets podcast on any of the platforms. We're there. Probably in the next week or so, it'll go up live there, and you can go and re-listen to all the stuff we talked about. So thank you Yhennifer for all the time and effort you put into it, and everybody else here on the clubhouse team. I'm grateful for everybody. And with that said, I guess we'll see you guys all on the next episode!

In this episode, @thefinancesavior shares how getting a solid grip on your personal finance strategy can translate into growing your real estate portfolio in the most efficient way. We cover everything from boosting income, tax benefits - like the 1031 and 721 exchange, diversification, using other people's money, and hedging against inflation. Check out Salvador Bentolila at: https://www.thefinancesavior.com https://www.instagram.com/thefinancesavior/ ---- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The remote real estate investor podcast is for informational purposes only and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the real estate investor. I'm Michael Albaum, and today I'm joined by my co host, Tom Schneider, and a very special guest with us, Salvador Bentolila, and he's gonna be talking to us today about his real estate investment journey, personal finance, and how he's married the two into his own personal coaching business. So let's jump into it.   Michael: So Salvador, thanks so much for taking the time to hang out with us today. Really appreciate it.   Salvador: Yes, thank you so much for having me. So we're looking forward to this conversation? And, yeah, I mean, hopefully, it's gonna be a productive and helpful topic for everyone, in terms of the intersection between real estate and personal finances.   Michael: I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it. So I know you and I kind of go back because you're a member of the Rootstock Academy. But for all of our listeners who might not be familiar with your story, your background would love for you to kind of bring everybody up to speed about how you got involved in real estate, which and what you're doing now, because you're kind of doing some interesting things.   Salvador: Yes, yes, absolutely. So personal finances has always been a topic of interest for me. And it kind of accelerated accelerator when I moved to the US. About six years ago, I started realizing how complex the system is here, it can get complicated, very quickly. So I started, I started reading a lot, taking courses helping friends and family. And over time, as I you know, I still work at my regular day job and started to get to know more people and eventually, you know, personal finances is one of those topics that usually comes out in, in conversations. And I started realizing that it's often a topic that people are not so much familiar with.   And, you know, I'm not here to blame anyone, because it's something I didn't know either, something that isn't regularly taught in schools. So recently, in the last couple months, I started to develop this coaching program for personal finances where my goal is just to educate people about all the different topics that go around it. So things like very basic things like how to create a budget, how credit work, how to pay off your debt, how to minimize your taxes, how to invest your money. And, you know, there I cover all of the different, let's say, investment classes from stocks and bonds, and real estate and commodities.   And a little bit also more about my background, then no real estate is also something that through the Roofstock Academy, that I started recently getting involved with about three years ago. So it's a topic I'm super enthusiastic about. And when I started this, this coaching program, I saw there was a nice intersection, which is what we want to speak about today.   Tom: I'd love just for context, telling everybody kind of, you know, what is that? What is the regular day job? And is that still going on? And just to give a little more context?   Salvador Yeah, sure. So I am a civil engineer, and specialized in water, I mostly work with wastewater treatment plants, we do some upgrades for in terms of protection to provide protection against resiliency. So I've been in the industry for about eight years. And there's a little bit of intersection there between construction and the work. Sometimes you have to do real estate properties. And mostly, you know, it's property managers or contractors taking care of, but but it's a it's a use, it can be a useful background, to have every once in a while.   Tom: Totally probably thinking about like systems and balance and just I don't know, data driven love it.   Michael: Yeah, I was gonna say I'd be curious Salvador, can you share with everybody what your experience in real estate has been to date thus far,   Salvaor: There's a very steep learning curve. In the beginning, it takes a lot to take that first step and a lot of discipline and you need to have a lot of motivation. As I was starting out, I can tell you was like a roller coaster of motivation. You know, one day I would wake up, okay, let's do this. And then a another day, I would like go get cold feet and put put the kind of the project on hold.   In the Roofstock Academy. We talked about the analysis paralysis. So that's also that happens as well, because now you get so much data that's available for you. And another. It's another thing that I experienced. So I think for me, it was that the Roofstock Academy was definitely helpful, especially the coaching and the coaches that are available there for them. Immerse, it's something that helps in getting that motivation going and achieve your goal. So that's been more or less. You know, so far, it's been going well, and I think I plan on keeping being a part of kind of a project. Michael: Awesome. And so curious to get your thoughts on, on the personal finance side of things, how you view real estate as a benefit.   Salvador Yeah. So before that, I forgot to say before about this coaching program that I started, you can check it out. It's called @thefinanceSavior. My name is Salvador and the translation to English is the Savior. That's why I call it that way. There's a page on Instagram that you can check out what I tried to post Bailey concert concepts there just to going back to the goal to educate people so they can make informed decisions one day at a time. And there's also a website, as you will see the different coaching programs and classes that are available.   So and and yeah, Mike, to your to your question. My goal. So yeah, there's so many benefits that then I want to hear some of them today, I think. So disclaimer to everyone and everyone listening here just to to know that everything we're discussing here, it's just going to be for educational purposes. And please don't take it as any type of, of legal, tax, or professional design advice. And it's always important to do your own due diligence, I think this will still be helpful. As a starting point, the first benefit in real estate that at least that I see is that the income, the income both, you know, there's so time you can boost your income typically that increasing your revenue or reducing your expenses. and reducing your expenses is it's easier to do but but there's a limit to it, right? There's always so much you can reduce because you always have bills to pay.   And in on the other hand, increasing your revenues or your income. It's harder to do but but there's no limit, that real estate gives you voice on that latter part of the equation, increasing your income. And it goes back to what we started with saying that there's a steep learning curve, and it's hard to do it. But you have that advantage of that. They're there, there's no potential. So that's kind of the first benefit that I see. And it takes time, but because it compounds over time, you can accelerate very quickly.   Michael: Awesome. Awesome. Love that. And so how did you view this as a benefit to your personal portfolio? How were you able to boost your income?   Salvador: Yeah, so. So at some point, and to me, for example, the real estate was the last asset class that that I explored. And I don't know if this is the same for everyone, maybe some people are fully invested 100% of their money is invested into real estate, or maybe some of them, it's also kind of the last, and I think, nowadays, with things like REITs, or, or a Roofstock, this is becoming more accessible to everyone, and you'd help me increase my income just because that properties, the properties that you acquire, they give you extra cash flow on a monthly basis.   So that's, that's the nice thing about it in terms of boosting your income, and it's completely passive ride, you don't have to, you just have to get the rent, which is which is tough, in and of itself. But once you do that, that's how you boost your income. Do you agree with that? How was your experience, Michael or Tom?   Tom: Totally, totally agree with that. And I think, you know, a lot of people it's, it's way more work buying a rental property than buying stocks, I mean, Roofstock is working very hard to make it not as difficult, right, and taking a lot of the operations out. But, you know, at the end of the day, if I want to go buy some shares of Microsoft or shares of some Vanguard fund, you know, it takes me 30 seconds to pull up my phone and do it, you know, on some app versus buying real estate.   You know, I think a lot of people kind of intuitively understand those extra benefits, you know, with income and tax and all that stuff. But there's just this overhead and I think for for people like us and yourself and other you know, probably people listening that have the gumption to get up and you know, be uncomfortable if need be comfortable being uncomfortable, right and doing some of those initial steps. There's there's some real benefit but Yeah, I agree for a lot of people. Real estate is is definitely a ladder entry into personal finance and wealth building and all that but even though it is, you know, probably one of the most proven paths of building long term wealth, it's just that you know, That extra extra challenges that you have in that it's it's a Yeah, double edged swords. But I mean, I, I think definitely for me the benefits outweigh the the extra extra work that it takes.   Michael: I'm going to push back a little bit on that. And I and just to one point that you made.   Tom: Push away Michael push away.   Michael: Oh the pusher the pusher has arrived. The benefits are people understand them or they they're they're innately understood. So I think that that that is not the case. Otherwise, I don't think we would be having this conversation. I don't think otherwise Salvador would be educating folks, I think that people can wrap their head around very easily the income potential that is available to properties, and also the appreciation potential, because those two things exist in the stock market. And so we can draw very easy parallels between the two, I think what they fail to recognize is the loan pay down that you get to the buying equity every single day, essentially, because of leverage, because we can't use leverage in the equities market unless you're buying on margin. But that's, you know, above and beyond your typical investor.   And then the tax benefits. Those are tough to quantify because it's based on your specific income and geographically where you live and a lot of other things that surround your financial position. So that doesn't exist in the equities, worldly stuff, to the best of my knowledge. And so those two things are kind of new, and specific to real estate. And so that's I think the other half of the pie that people have a really difficult time wrapping their head around. Okay, now you can clarify, is that what you meant?   Tom: Point point, Michael, I agree. I agree. I think, I think people… I will rephrase it all, redact and rephrase. So I think people intuitively understand that real estate is a great way to build wealth. But to your point, I think that there are some aspects that people might not even realize which the loan pay down piece another way that I like to put it when talking to people, you can say like, okay, you can go borrow $100,000, and someone else will pay it off for you, like, where else like whether, like types of wealth building, you know, ways is that real, you know, buy your house $100,000 debt, and then the rent that somebody else is paying is going to pay off that, that borrowed money? So, good, good point. Yeah. And the tax pieces is great, as well. Salvador, do you want to riff at all on the tax benefits?   Salvador: Yes, yes. Well, actually, thanks for that. That's a great segue. And that, Tom will, we will, you know, that's the whole point of this session to explain for the different benefits. So they don't think it's, it's super straightforward and, and taxes, as you and Michael, were just saying, is the second advantage that I wanted to talk about today, with the first one was doing, you know, get a boost in your income, and other taxes.   And there's kind of three, three main things I want to touch upon. The first one is the deductions like you with real estate, you can, there's so many deductions that you can take about your income. And so starting with all different expenses that you have, so any type of repairs, if you travel, maintenance, insurance, utilities, if you're paying for it, commissions, all of that are going to reduce your income, that your taxable income, and therefore your your tax liability. If you go out for to a restaurant, you cannot deduct that out of your personal income taxes with rental properties, you know, let's say you having a meeting with your property manager, it's considered part of the business, then you might be able to deduct that.   And then there's the depreciation, which is a very, very large expense. So the IRS allows you to depreciate about 1/28th  of the value of the property every year, excluding some part of the land, that's not appreciated. But that's a very large expense. If you buy Tom, you were talking about $100,000 property before, I think that's about $3500 a year that you can depreciate and, and most likely, without depreciation, which is a non cash expense, it's not money that's directly coming out of your pocket, you're going to be operating at a loss. So effectively, you're going to reduce your tax, your taxable income and your tax liability, you're going to have a loss on paper, but you're still going to have money in your pocket. So that's a great advantage also.   And then another deduction is is abbreviated as UBI, which is a qualified business income deduction which you need to meet. It only applies up until a certain level but it's an additional 20% that you can take.   On top of the deductions you have the referrals, right. It's very popular and I think touch upon in different articles through our roof talk about the 1031 exchange, which is just deferring your capital gains taxes, when you have a property that has up shader over time, and you want to sell it, but you don't want to pay capital taxes, capital gains taxes today, you can replace a property with, like kind property a similar property. And and then allow you to defer that those taxes until a later date. So it's, it's, you know, of course there's some criteria a timeline to be met, it has to be done through through a third party. And Michael and Tom Feel free to to jump in. If you have gone through this, what kind of what your experience has been, but it's a it's a very powerful mechanism to, to defer taxes, because now you're saving that extra 15-20 or, or 40%, after tax reform that you can use to buy a much larger property.   Tom: Yeah, love 1031s. I mean, it's, you know, like I said, the the mind blowing thing of borrowing $100,000 in somebody else paying off, like a 1031 is like buying a bunch of stock, having it go up a ton. And then using all the gains to buy some more stock without, without needing to pay any taxes on it, it's like the the rules within the space are just so beneficial. On the real estate said.   Salvador And then another deferral that I wanted to speak about, which is less heard of, at least for me is the 721 exchange, which allows you to, let's say, you buy a property and it's not performing or you're like, Ah, you know, owning real estate directly, it's not really a thing for me, you can transfer the value of that property wanted sold into shares of a REIT, which is a real estate investment trust. So your money will still be invested in the in the real estate market, but not directly. And that's another way that you could potentially defer capital gains. So two deferral mechanisms.   And last, the last tax advantage that I wanted to speak about is the SECA taxes. So SECA taxes are social security and, and Medicare taxes, which are usually taken off of your if you are, you know, W2 employee, they're taking the straight way right away from your from your paycheck, rental income is not hit, but with with this type of taxes, which, as a W2 employee can be about 10 and a half percent. If you're self employed, because you don't have a company that pays for the rehab, it can be around 15%. So it's another considerable part of your income that you were saving with the rental properties.   Tom: That's cool. I wasn't aware of that. Seven 721, you said is where you can convert the into a REIT? That's, that's interesting. Yeah, I was I wasn't aware of that. That's   Salvador: Yeah. So I also became familiar with recently, I haven't experienced it. But as I understand these, the mechanism that allows you to transfer your the value of your property wants to sell into shares of, of a REIT, which for for our audience, are really just a company that they own, they operate, and you know, the maintain, and finance real estate brokerage properties. So basically, they take care of everything, and you just buy shares of them. So your money then is allocated throughout the portfolio of properties.   Michael: Yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't heard of that, either. I'd be curious to know if it has to be similar values to the 1031 exchange. I mean, if you've got if you sell a property for 200,000, and have 100,000 worth of debt, when you go to do your 1031 exchange, you need to buy something that's at least 200,000 or greater. On the upleg. For this, if I have 100,000 in equity, and I have to pay back 100,000? You know, I'm left with 100,000. Basically, do you know how that works? salvadore? Do I need to invest all 100,000? Or do I need to go that invest 200,000 in REITs?   Salvador: I don't know the details of it. And you know, it's something that I'm looking forward to, to learn more and to learn more about it. So I can definitely keep you posted up our recording station and the angles on what research do you do?   Tom: I'd also interested you if you could go the other direction, like take shares from a read to investing directly without capital gains.   Michael: Ahh that's a 722 exchange!   Tom: Michael is making stuff up? Is that really what it is?   Michael: No, I literally pulled that out of thin air. So if I was gonna say call out to our listeners, if anybody knows, if that's possible, please let us know. Right? It's in the comment section, email, Tom and myself. We would love to learn more about that.   I mean, the one thing I do know is that with the Oh, the opportunity zones, that's a way to sell out of the equities market and invest in real estate, but only in qualified zones. And there's very specific rules about it, but you can't avoid capital gains on that. And so for anybody interested that's made big gains in the equities market and does want to invest in real estate and you're looking to liquidate some equities, looking at opportunity zones. That's definitely something to have on your radar.   Salvador: Yeah, yeah. I mean, this can be a topic also to be covered, added to the Roofstock Academy as well.   Tom: Love it.   Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I think we need to get somebody on the podcast talking about opportunity zones.   Salvador: I meant the 721 exchange, but both of them.   Michael: Oh, yeah that to that too. Yeah. All right, this to the list. So let's get this on the rails Salvador. Because we're, we're in the weeds here, man. So what are what are some of the other benefits that you've seen? For real estate?   Salvador: Yeah. So two more I wanted to, to speak about is the one of them is that diversification that that real estate provides you So Michael, my initial point that real estate, to me was the last asset class. And this is because you need, you know, typically, you need a little bit more capital than if you're just buying a stock or a bond, or some of the other traditional investments. And so when you do that, you you kind of spread your money a little bit more hedge yourself a little bit with risk in case there's a downturn of the market. Historically, real estate has been very low correlated to, to the stock market, we saw that throughout the dynamic, of course, of course, the stock market has now recovered, but even when it crashed during March in April of last year, I don't think the real estate market went down as much. Even you know, it's actually been up.   There's other factors involved, like interest rates and refinancing, and people moving out of urban areas. But it's another protection that you can use for your overall portfolio, when you're talking about investing your funds as part of your personal finances.   Michael: I think that makes a lot of sense. And for those that might not be familiar, can you explain a little bit more about when you say the real estate market isn't correlated with the stock market? What does that mean?   Salvador: So what that means is that if stocks tend to rise or fall with time, then the real estate market is not necessarily going to follow that that same trend. So, for example, when you buy we're talking about Vanguard funds before, when you buy a Vanguard fund that tracks to the stock market, like the s&p 500 index, that fund that you own is gonna do exactly or very, very closely to what the s&p 500 index is doing. The real estate market, it's not related because it's a different asset class. In fact, the the market has the stocks are categorized into 11 different sectors. And real estate is a, it's a sector of itself.   So, of course, there are companies that trade in the stock market and are related to real estate, but in general is a separate asset class that you can, that you can take advantage to diversify your portfolio. That's, I guess that's, that's what I was trying to say, does that help that play for you?   Michael: That's great. That's great.   Tom: Definitely. You know, one thing I like it kind of speaking of is diversification of owning real estate directly is these leases that you have on renters, you know, oftentimes, they're one years, maybe even two years. So it moves slower, right, where the stock market is bouncing around all day, every day and, you know, whatever during trading hours. And within your, you know, the the fixed income aspect of real estate, like the rent that you're collecting, like it's more or less like locked in unless there's some cataclysmic event where, you know, whatever. Not a cataclysmic is probably an extreme word to use, but some event where your renter is unable to pay rent, you know, there's there's issues, but generally, like COVID, I don't know, thankfully, I think a lot of SFR single family rentals didn't experience it as much as some of the bigger multifamily.   But just generally speaking, on the diversification point, like I feel like since real estate, it tends to move a little bit slower, right with like one year leases. It's just also significantly less volatile on the the rent collected. So my just two cents on that diversification. It's Yeah, moving slow the benefit of slowish. Yeah.   Salvador: Yeah, that. That's super helpful. Thanks. Thanks for that, Thomas. And then I think the last point I wanted to touch here in terms of the benefits well, Tom, you already spoke about capitalization how you can borrow money to kind of multiply your purchasing power. That's, I think, super. Another benefit here.   The one I wanted to touch upon in that and I think it's relevant, nowadays more than ever is also to help yourself against inflation, recently with all the money that's been put into the economy, due to the pandemic or the stimulus and the trillions of dollars, so there is that concern That in the following years or this year's inflation will be higher than normal. And we know inflation just reduces the purchasing power of our dollar.   So when you put your money into real estate and you rent it out to someone else, typically salaries are adjusted with inflation as well. And these data happens, then that means your tenants will also be able to tolerate that increase in rent that that as well, as far as they have, they are aligned with with inflation, too. And then that extra profit is passed on to you as the owner. And so you're getting, you know, you're netting out zero to covering yourself against inflation.   So another point that I think is, you know, super beneficial in terms of personal finances, instead of as opposed to when you have your money sitting around in the bank and spending very little interest.   Michael: Yeah, I think that's a great point to bring up Salvador. And another way to say that, and something that kind of just slapped me upside the head when I heard it broken down this way is like, Look, if you think about Tom's $100,000 property that he's borrowing money to purchase, let's say the mortgage on that is 500 bucks a month, and he uses 30 year fixed debt to purchase that. Every single month, his mortgage payment is going to be 500 bucks, day in and day out, that's not going to change.   But the things that are going to change in Tom situation are likely going to be as income from his job that he works, if he's w two, he's likely going to earn more because his wages are going to go up with inflation, the rent is also going to go up, because like you said, Salvador, people are earning more. And so we need to adjust further cost of living, so the rent is likely going to go up. Which means that Tom is gonna be making more money in terms of dollars than he was from years prior. But his debt is one of his biggest expenses is going to remain unchanged. And so the fact that you get to use somebody else's money to make yourself more, that's likely going to increase over time, but the thing that you have to pay them back for is going to remain fixed for the next 30 years. Oh my gosh, like, it just becomes so powerful.   And when you look at like forecasting, and net present value and future values, and you put an inflation factor in of two and a half or 3%, I mean, it starts to really take off because inflation is compounding. And so when you think for 30 years, you get to have the same payment that's fixed It just like it's just so mind boggling and eye opening, when you actually start to look at the numbers and what that means. 30 years from now.   Salvador: Right? Yep. Yeah, completely agree. Good. Good way to to compliment that. Thanks. Thank you, Michael. Tom, do you want to say anything?   Tom: Good time to jump into the next topic? Unless you have anything else you want to add?   Salvador: Yeah, yes, I was actually just gonna, you know, sum up for for everyone that the benefits. Because I know we're speaking, we're moving touching upon many points. So we spoke about boosting your income, the tax benefits, diversifying your portfolio, capitalizing kind of borrowing powers, and then hedging yourself against inflation. So those are the five benefits I wanted to speak about today. And now also how to approach it right? Like similar to personal finances, you have to approach real estate in a certain way I recognize people may have different ways. list with your input also offer some some starting point for our audience here listening to to our session.   How does that sound to you guys?   Tom: Love it, lead the way? Let's do it.   Michael: Perfect.   Salvador: Okay, and the first one is to look or think about your real estate investment with an entrepreneurial or a business mindset. You have to keep track, look at it as a business as a company and really keep track of its performance, your what's what's coming in, what's coming out. This is going to allow you to see where you're standing at. At any point in time. Is it performing according to your plan? Come, let's say an opportunity to sell. Is it worth it for you now? Are you above or below the point where you're forecasted to be?   So that's, you know, I think that's the first point that I wanted to talk about, for example, in my case, I super rigorous with this and try to keep my files as updated as possible. Also, recording all the different expenses and revenues to make sure also for for tax days is super helpful, but but let alone that for for yourself as an investor. It helps you know where you're standing at any point in time.   Michael: And Salvador, I couldn't agree more that I think it's so important to run your investing like a business and really treat it like a business. My question for you is, and I'm curious to know how you've seen other people do this. How does somebody go about getting educated on what a business should look like and how a business should run because I think that this, this is a big, big, big gap in our education system just as a whole, I think university.   I was just chatting with somebody who lives in Singapore, who's from the UK, who helps speaking on financial literacy. And he was saying, look, this stuff isn't taught in school. So you're not going to learn in most schools how to run a business unless you go take specific business courses or entrepreneurship classes. So for your everyday person that's maybe just getting out of school or didn't necessarily go to school, but knows that real estate's a great investment? How can they equip themselves to run a business or to understand how they should be running a business?   Salvador: Yeah, so obviously, the first answer is going to be internet, you know, but there's so many resources out there that it can become overwhelming. So in the end, you'll realize that it's not, it's not something too complicated, there's, there's actually just a couple, you just need to understand how the financial statements are put together, how they're linked between each other. And you can do this through I've learned, for example, my case by reading books, and taken courses. And so that's how that has helped me tremendously. And I've applied that knowledge into the real estate business, it's actually something that I coach people about, also to how to put together the financial statements.   So I think it's the information is out there. And there's really a lot of different sources. So I think it's just having that, that motivation, and taking that step to learn that and definitely something that everyone can learn. I'm not saying I don't think you have a specific type of degree or specific type of knowledge. Definitely learnable. But by everyone that that's my opinion.   Michael: I love it. And you and you did it, too. So that's, I think the beauty of all of this, this conversation is you're living kind of breathing proof that this is possible.   Salvador: Yeah, no, I'm not an accountant. I don't have any financial degree or background. So I mean, I do have knowledge, but it's all been like past education. And as I've learned, through the years, nothing that was taught in school or very little.   Tom: Yeah, yeah.   Michael: Appetizing.   Salvador: Good. Okay. So the other point, I wanted to talk about this, how to integrate it with, with with your life and with different types of events. So so as we were saying before, real estate can be something when you purchase your first home, your first investment, it can involve a significant amount of money. And so as life goes on, you can also have different events that don't involve a large amount of money, like when you get married, or let's say you're moving, or maybe you're having a children,     Tom: Babies!   Salvador: Baby, yes, I was gonna, I was gonna say that. And so I think, just integrated, right, make sure you don't want to get engaged, and then your wedding time comes and you don't have any money, because you've spent it all into real estate, just make sure to integrate those sides of, of your those aspects of your life. And make sure that if you're married, also to manage it as a couple, once you once you are a family, and you're now responsible for your financial decisions and for your future. And as long as both or all parties in the family are in the same page. I think it helps you progress a lot faster. It reduces Of course, you know, reasons for creating friction and stress in the relationship that could be also more costly down the road, aka divorce, you know, can be costly sometimes. So just integrated have a plan. Of course, it's all about plan but integrated with with different events that are going around your life. And make sure to manage it with a couple with your partners already. Is that second point I wanted to jump on today?   Salvador: Michael or Tom, do you have any thoughts on no personal experiences house? How's that been going for you so far?   Michael: Sure. So I think it's a really important point as well. And I have I'll share kind of my personal experience, and then I have a follow up question for you. And then I would love to hear from Tom. So for me, I was involved in real estate well before I met my, my wife before we started eating any of that stuff. So I really brought her had to bring her along, after we got together and help educate her and show her, Hey, these are the things that we're working on. And this is I want to help involve you in planning how we go forward.   And she's really jumped into that with both feet, which has been so exciting and rewarding. So we do make decisions as a couple and we talk about things as a couple with regards to real estate and planning going forward.   But I think that that I might be a bit of the exception, not the rule. I think in a lot of couples, a lot of relationships. There is one person that's more excited about real estate investing than the other. And so I'm curious Salvador in your experience, how you've helped coach people through that or how you've seen people overcome that hurdle because so many times I hear, oh, my partner isn't interested there. Let me make all the decisions. What do you say to those types of people or my partner isn't interested in investing in real estate, they don't think it's a good investment? How do I get them to come aboard?   Salvador: Yes. So in those situations they have, they have been more the exception or that then the rule fortunately, in those situations, what I usually try to say is to try to explain the benefits, just like what we were speaking about, in the first part of our session today, the benefits of what real estate can bring them in terms of the future, what you know, and I understand that, you know, this is this, this goes back to delayed gratification, you're sacrificing something today for a benefit that you're not gonna see maybe a couple of years or several years down the road. And for some personality types, it's harder to grasp that concept of sacrificing today.   And so my advice is just to get super informed and educated. So you have all the ammo for when you face that conversation with your, with your partner, and make sure that you can explain correctly in a convincing manner. The benefits of whatever financial goals you have, whether that's real estate investing, or stock investing, or anything else.   And, and of course, also, you know, as long as it makes sense for, for the couple, but really get educated. And I think it's okay, if, if one, one person in the couple takes control of it, I think there's you know, in a marriage or in a couple, some parties take responsibilities or charge or different duties or kind of areas on the life of the couple. As long as the other person is on board. I think that's okay, so that's been my advice. In my experience. What about you, Tom?   Tom: I totally agree, I think in some cases, one person in the couple might be more engaged with it. But as long as there's transparency, and I think that to Michael's point, on getting over the barrier of getting comfortable. I totally agree with what Salvador has to say. But I would also really put yourself in a position to be successful in communicating that. So you know, I wouldn't do it when somebody is hungry in the middle of the day, like I would do it. Like, you know, if you guys are morning, people during the morning, you guys are eating people, or if your partner is an evening person, dude in the evening, like put yourself in a position to be successful in having that conversation.   A tool that I like to use is this fund flow tool, where, you know, we have our different sources of income and like rental properties. And, you know, every once in a while, we'll take a look at them and, you know, see how the fund flow. So I think, like I said, I totally agree, there's gonna be cases where one person's more engaged than the other. But as long as there are transparency, and trust, and all of that good stuff. You know, there's a lot of different combinations of the way that a couple can be successful and working together.   Salvador: Okay, so thanks, Tom, for that input. super helpful. So two last points I wanted to touch on before we're wrapping up. The first one. And there's a lot of there's kind of two teams in this one is a topic that's often discussed in the Roofstock Academy is to separate your, your personal and your business assets. And I'm talking specifically a level an LLC versus having on yourself, man, I don't really want to get into the details here. There's, I don't think there's right or wrong answer, everyone has a different situation, this is one of the topics where you really just should talk to an attorney and lead that person besides what's best for you.   The point here is just to, to keep, keep things separate, you know, separate bank accounts. And and, and these will help you going back to the very first point would be to track the performance of your investment. As as, as accurately as possible. Don't don't don't start coming owing because then it's going to be very hard. So that's one point.   And then the last one is to have a financial plan. Make sure that you have enough cash reserves built into you on the right property you'll you'll be surprised and Mike and Tom I'm sure you know about this, how many different reasons you can get a call for from your property or manager or your attendant about things that go wrong and you need to put up you know, of course, spend money to like a rule for a water here or anything else.   And so just like you have an emergency fund for a personal finance too, in terms of personal went to cover any unexpected expense. cash reserve is going to save your day when you need to come up with extra funds.   Your financial plan should also have projections against you You know, where you should be standing at at any point in time, when is a good time to sell or to keep the property and have a target DTI, which is your debt to income ratio? Michael was talking about this earlier that cash is going to be your limiting, limiting factor as you try to grow your portfolio, and the more favorable, terms you're gonna get when you ask for, for credit and your loan. So try to keep that as low as possible.   And then last but not least, is that whole part of the state planning, and which is just going to the domain? What's going to happen to a person's assets, when that when that person passes away? Who are they going to belong to if they're going to relatives, or, or friends, or whoever the person wants to designate another topic that I think should be touched on with, with an attorney. And because you can get complicated varies by state, but it's just going to save a lot of time for when that moment happens. And I know it's hard to think about that. But it saves a lot of time and and taxes also, from when those those assets are passed on to.   So that was the last point, Michael or Tom, do you have any thoughts on these approaches and considerations that we spoke about or the financial plan before we kind of wrap it up?   Michael: Yeah, I think this makes so much sense to touch on the estate planning. I know this really caught me off guard as I started investing in real estate, it's just one of those things that people aren't, again, it's not taught in school, it's not talked about, you really have to go looking for this type of information. It's not kind of just existing out there in the general world. And as most people start to invest in real estate, their assets start to become significant, which is a great benefit.   And so the two pieces of this pie, the way that I see it is the part while you're alive, and then what you're planning on doing with it after because a lot of people invest in real estate to generate generational wealth. And that's really great. I think that's a really awesome cause noble cause one of the reasons I invest in real estate is for the same reason.   And so to help that generational wealth stay for future generations, we need to look at, see what is involved with protecting it, and making sure it's cared for. And an estate plan is really how you do that. And so there's the, again, the two parts of this the living and then once you've passed, and it's gone to whomever it's supposed to go to, you want to make sure that they have an easier time using it and benefiting from it because that's the whole reason one of the reasons that you set it up in the first place. So don't do a really great job on the front end, only to have it squandered on the back end, because of taxes and all this kind of a thing.   There are so many things that you can do to help protect yourself and your family and the ones that you're airing the the the investment to. So I think definitely, definitely, definitely spend time energy money on an estate plan and making it worthwhile.   Salvador: Definitely agree with that. Tom, you wanted to say something?   Tom: Yeah, great point about the estate planning. And, really, you might be thinking like, Oh, I don't need to do that, like I'm not dying anytime soon. It's one of those things, just you just Sure, like, you don't need to get like super in depth and detailed, but it's probably better, especially as you're starting to build your wealth. And it gets more complicated. Leave a nice little gift on your way out for for those by just simplifying and setting that up.   And it's, you know, once you do it once, that doesn't mean you can't change it and do it again later. But I would recommend going through the exercise of just getting that estate, you know, some sort of baseline setup. And then it could be something that you update every whatever five or 10 years or it's not a waste of time to do it just because it's one of the few things you will guaranteed to use at some point.   And then the the other points that I particularly liked was the running projections, what I think is important in running your projections is to sort of document it and then compare how you performed versus your projections. The only way to improve in anything is to to have to know how you're doing you know to have like kind of a clear scorecard. So run those projections document your expectations and then when you have the real numbers take a look and compare that's really the only way you can only expect to improve what you inspect or what you you know measure. There's a good saying in there in that word soup that I threw out and I don't think I hit.   Michael: Inspect what you expect. Something like that.   Tom: I don't know yeah, but put projections measure and then compare. And the last the last thing that is just so important I think I already mentioned at once this episode is making sure that you have a cash reserves. The biggest way that you can lose in real estate is need to do a fire sale because you need the money. I saw it happen with a friend. It's like man, you just basically lit like $20,000 on Fire, like don't don't need to do a fire sale, you know. So make sure that you have the reserves the appropriate reserve besides that, Salvador great list, I dig it.   Michael: Just the last thing I want to say on the estate plan. If you get a quote, to, you know, talk to a couple different estate planning attorneys, and it might seem expensive, but what I encourage everyone to do is go Google search, how much does probate cost when someone passes? And I think it'll make a lot of sense to then go set up the estate plan on the front end? Because it's just like, you don't want to do it. Just take it from me.   Salvador: Yeah, well, I was actually just just gonna wrap it up. Thanks, Tom, for that last comment, I think I just wanted to leave the audience with some final thoughts. And feel free Michael and something jumped in. And if you have anything else.   Three thoughts I wanted to give away. The first one is to get started, don't don't procrastinate. I promise you, it won't. It won't be any easier tomorrow. So if you have the time today, get doing it. I was a victim of it. I procrastinated due to various reasons, analysis paralysis, or getting cold feet, whatever. And I'm sure everyone has their own. So I'm just gonna started because we know that the compounding effect becomes more powerful with longer periods of time. So it's in your own benefit to start ASAP.   The second one is to make your plan and stick to it the ideal lead do this at the beginning of your journey in the in the real estate investment world, it takes a lot of time to make your plan you have to kind of define your buybox that's another concept spoken about in the in the Roofstock Academy. And, you know, you spend a lot of time on it. So make it worthwhile. Once you've done your plan and define it, make sure to stick around, it'll also serve as your north to tell you what, where you have to go from here and where you want to be in several years down the road. Sorry.   And the last one is scale as quickly as possible, but avoid risk. We know also back to the effect of compounding interest as scaling becomes super, super impactful in your life. And also am like like without before cash is going to be limited. So make sure that you scale quickly. But also don't put yourself in your your personal life or your cup, your family lives at risk. Because at the end, if you use financing, it's a lot of money that you're going to be responsible for. So those are my three cents and what to call it and Michael or Tom, feel free to add anything else before we wrap it up here.   Michael: I think those are awesome. three cents, man. I'll take those all day. That was…   Tom: Agreed.   Michael: Yeah, absolutely. You said at the beginning of the episode, but if folks have more questions for you want to reach out what's the best place for them to get in touch with you?   Salvador: My Instagram page called @thefinancesavior. And you can also check out the website thefinancesavior.com. So you'll see there the content that I post daily and kind of the topics I touch upon. And so feel free to message me or follow me spread the word if you know anyone that could benefit from it.   Michael: Fantastic. Well definitely do whatsoever. Thanks again for hanging out. That's really appreciate you taking the time and helping spread the word of financial literacy. I think it's really important. So we look forward to chatting again soon.   Salvador: Definitely. Thank you so much for having me by Michael and Tom. Until the next one.   Michael: All righty, everybody, that was our episode a big big big thank you to Salvador. hope everybody got a lot out of it. I know I did. The 721 exchange was something brand new for myself and Tom so we're gonna definitely be looking into that. And if you enjoyed the episode, please feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is you listen to your episodes, and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing

Sometimes closing on a deal is not so straightforward. Michael shares a nightmare closing scenario and we discuss how to mitigate struggles like these to stay on schedule, saving time and money. --- Transcript   Emil: Everyone, welcome back for another weekend wisdom edition of the remote real estate investor. My name is Emil Shour. And today I've got with me,   Tom: Tom Schneider,   Michael: and Michael Albaum.   Emil: And we're going to be talking about what happens when your closing goes sideways. So Michael recently had a refi on a triplex he owns and had some some challenges arise. And we're gonna just put them in the hot seat, learn what happened and learn how he deals with it. So you guys can get some tips and takeaways in case this ever happens to you down the road. So let's hop into this one.   Alright, Michael said, set the stage for us. What what happened on this refi on your triplex.   Michael: All right. Step back in time with me to December of 2020. So that's what I started this whole process. And my wife actually found this awesome lender out in the Midwest, they could land on this property that I owned inside of an LLC. And I was like, great, this is awesome. So we got the ball rolling. He got a couple different quotes. For me. He was a mortgage broker. That's what he did he so he wasn't the lender specifically. So he found a lender that was going to work. We said, Great, we got the ball rolling, we got the application process started.   And then they said, Oh, you're doing some rehab work. So they went out for the appraisal, that's when they learned learned, quote, unquote, about the rehab work. And I was like, I told you about the rehab work. And they said, Oh, well, we can't we have to go back and do another appraisal once the work is done. So keep us posted. I'm like, oh my god. So that slowed things down to start, then we were supposed to close. And they said, Oh, you filled out some paperwork wrong. Yeah.   Tom: Did you get charged for like a chip chart trip charge for the appraisal? appraisal.   Michael: So I got a second charge for the appraisal, which they didn't tell me about until the closing statement showed it. It was only a couple 100 bucks. But I was I was still a bit frustrated, because they didn't like tell me that. And I should have assumed like, of course somebody has to travel to go do these things. But also at the same time, it seems a bit frustrating that they said oh, here's the price for the appraisal when they quoted it to me. And then the final amount being taken out at the closing is different, because they charged more for the appraisal example back second time, which they should have done because they knew about the construction. So that was a bit frustrating.   Tom: Was the construction like really significant.   Michael: It was a total remodel of a unit of the biggest unit in the in the triplex so fairly.   Tom: King unit.   Michael: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So then they tell me Oh, by the way, I know we're pretty close to closing, but you filled out some paperwork wrong. So on my statement of information to the Secretary of State of California, I put that the LLC was member managed. But when I initially filed and made the LLC, I put that it was manager managed. So those two documents didn't align. So they said, Oh, you got it, you got to change this. And I was like, all right. We should we're done about this earlier, but whatever. So I did that and filed an amendment with the Secretary of State, it really wasn't a big deal, like 25 bucks to do to do it all online. Good to go. Great.   So now fast forward, the closing has already been delayed. They finally got through the re inspection of the property, as well. And they say, oh, by the way, this same issue happened in Alaska, where the property is, is physically. So you need to update that as well with the the secretary of state or change the operating agreement. I was like, why didn't you bring this up when you were scanning the documents that you had for California a month ago? Like a So anyway, to file an amendment, the Secretary of State of Alaska was much more difficult. It wasn't able to be that online. It was a whole process. And then I didn't get verification that it was accepted and approved. Until 18 business days later, was there a timeframe?   So I said I can't wait 18 more days to close this thing. What options do we have? And they said, Oh, we can close load in your personal name. So I say Great, let's do that. And they said, Okay, well, now because it's gonna be a person's name, you have to click claim it out of your LLC and into your personal name. I was like, You got to be kidding me. So I quick claiming that out of the LLC into my personal name. And they said, Okay, yeah, now we're clear to close. So they reached out to the title company, and the title company was unresponsive. So then I reached out to the title company, the title, the closer I reached out to their manager, and everybody was giving me the runaround. Oh, we need more documents from the lender, and the lender saying, Oh, we need we gave everything to title. It's in title's hands. So days and days, days, this Thursday went on for like a week of trying to coordinate this thing with the title company.   The person who the lender had on my case on my file was on the East Coast, but the title company was on the west coast. So there was several hour time difference. I mean, it was just like, the amount of people that got added to the emails each day grew exponentially. And I think Like the final set of emails, there were 12 people CCD on this, like it was a joke. Like they just couldn't get it. Right. So the loan finally funded this Monday, this past Monday, yesterday. And on Thursday, I think I got an email saying, Oh, we hope that this is from title, we hope that the lender wires over the money by Monday. And I wrote back and I was like you hope in a nicer house like you hope I was like, stop hoping and get this done? Who need to take responsibility for this? The lender has told me they've already sent you the money, where is it? When or when should I be expecting it? Please do not respond with you hope. I would like a plan of action going forward and someone to take responsibility, and I was nicer about it. But that was the gist of it. And that was the inner dialogue I was having in my in my head.   So somebody wrote back to me, they said, We're so sorry for this confusion. It will be in your account Monday morning. And I say, Great. Thank you for the confirmation. I look forward to seeing my account Monday morning. So Monday morning rolls around, the lender emails me and says, Hey, confirm with us when you receive the funds. I said, Great. No problem. We'll do 10 o'clock rolls around no funds. 12 o'clock rolls around no funds, but as they're…   Emil: Keep hitting refresh.   MIchael: Yeah, refresh. I was like, Hey, you told me is gonna be my account. Monday morning. I know, we're in the same time zone. There's nothing here and there's nothing pending What's going on? And they said, Oh, it should be there. And I said, well, it's not. So there's a lot of money out in cyberspace that you need to figure out where it is, and tell me when I should be expecting it. And they said, Oh, we are our servers have been slow. You know, I did it personally, it should be there.   So then finally, about two o'clock, it shows up. And I say Great. Thanks, everybody. This was ridiculous. So that was a really long winded way of basically going through what was a nightmare close, and a lot of takeaways that I had from this and other closings that have gone semi sideways, as well as that you really have to be your own advocate so much of the time, just because the lender says they're working on it doesn't necessarily mean that they are or just because the title company says they're working on this. I mean, they necessarily are. And so don't assume I feel silly saying this, but like, Don't assume that people are going to do the things they say they do. You really have to follow up with them and really be the driver, and also making sure that everybody's communicating. At no point should I have had to step in to email, both the title company and the lender on an email together and say, hey, why aren't you communicating better? Why am I the intermediary for my own loan? This is ridiculous.   Tom: Michael, not a not a big hope guy just doesn't really believe in hope, it's just kidding. I'm just kidding. That's pretty funny. I hope it funds. Okay. So yeah. Yeah, question for you here. So did you select the title company, or did the lender select the title company? You obviously selected the lender?   Michael: Here's the here's the funny part. So I wanted to use Spruce Title, who we use a lot of Roofstock. And I have a personal relationship with we had them on the podcast. They helped me do some things in Southern California to do a quitclaim deed, which was awesome. And so I said, Hey, Spruce, can you do this? And they said, you know, we really don't do a lot of business in Alaska, we would prefer to have your lender, your lenders title company, do it whoever they use, but when in a pinch, let us know we can we can try to be of some assistance. So I thought that we were lined up. I thought we were using spruce. It wasn't until push came to shove at the end of this when they told me Oh, we're using this other our title company that we use a lot. And now I'm sitting here scratching my head, looking at hindsight, being like, Are you freaking kidding me? This is the company that you chose over mine, are you insane, so it was just really frustrating. It was really frustrating.   And then I also asked him, I was like, both the lender and the title company. So you're really going to charge me full price, you're really going to give me all these fees, and everybody keeps giving me the runaround Oh, well, it's the other company that's causing the delays. So you know, our fees are set. I said, Man, this is just unbelievable. So I don't think I'm done fighting that battle yet. More so over principle than anything else. I mean, the fees were not exorbitant. I think they were, you know, reasonable for what I got. But still to make me have to jump through all these hoops at the 11th hour to make me have to do all the communication and I'm like, Am I doing your job for you at the end of the day? Come on. This is This is ridiculous.   So and then not the lack of response, I think is what really gets my go. It really grinds my gears. When people are asking for things that need to happen in a timely manner and just lack of response and I get people are busy, but some acknowledgement of Hey, we're working on it. I mean, Emil, you and I talked about this all the time you sent me an email, it's crickets. If you can't get to it, just acknowledge that hey, won't get to it'll tomorrow. Or hey, we'll get back to you in a day, whatever. Something to let me know that someone on the other end has put eyes on this or is as has a pulse at least.   Tom: Are there other little tricks you do within your emails when you're responding to them like Hey, are you the right person to contact for this like Basically like having them, like accept ownership of whatever that like specifically. I mean, that's that's brutal Michael, that you had to kind of jump in and quarterback, you know, between these these two companies, but I love it. Do you have any kind of pro tips like on writing these types of emails? I mean, one of them, I would just chime in with, you know, be direct, but don't be a jerk. But is there any other kind of like thoughts you have in being proactive with email, which I think is like the right thing to do? And you can see that it's like, getting a little bit off kilter?   Michael: I think that's a really great tip that you offered almost in your question of Hey, asking, Are you the right person?   Tom: Thanks Michael.   Michael: Yeah, absolutely.   Tom: So I threw it off the backboard and just dunked it.   Michael: We read it the Roofstock Academy book club, a book by Chris Voss called never split the difference. And he talks about if you're not getting responses to emails, a way that you can write in the email is, have you given up trying to assist me in resolving this problem, or something to that effect? It's like, a little harsh, but   Tom: That sounds a little harsh. I like it. I like it.   Michael: It is it is a little bit harsh, but also how many times you're going to bang your head against the wall with somebody who's not responding to your emails, or phone calls, or any kind of other communication? That's kind of the the question that needs to be answered. Hey, are you are you done talking to me? Are we just giving up here? And so I've only done it a couple of times, and it tends to work pretty well. I've been cc on an email where that was sent. And I was like, hey, that seems pretty harsh. Not sure that was appropriate. So I would definitely make sure it's a last ditch effort. And, you know, there are ways to word that in a more light hearted manner. But I think absolutely, oftentimes, it is justified. I didn't come to that at this. But I think that that's a really great tip of Hey, asking, Are you the right person for me to be talking to, and then also see seeing anybody and everybody that can help?   So managers, managers, managers, because so often, if the chain isn't consistent, things get lost in the email thread. And so adding people and subtracting people mid thread is difficult. So I'd say just make sure everybody is on on the train and communication with one another from the start. And that's helpful.   Tom: Yeah, I'd say one thing too, when you're adding, you know, more and more people on email, I think sometimes people could see a lot of people in email and like, think like, Oh, this isn't necessarily me. So like, within the body of the email, you know, if there is a lot of people on it, I'll do an  @ Michael album, like or @ whoever you're talking to, just because sometimes if you you're looking at an email, and there's a dozen people on you'd be like, oh, somebody else is gonna pick this up totally. So you know, use that kind of wider spray, but then use the little, you know, direct shot within the within the body of the email.   Michael: Such a great point, such a great point.   Emil: So to summarize, the big takeaway, I think, here is that the buck stops with you, you kind of have to, like you have to quarterback the whole thing, right? Is that the big takeaway, that you should own the process? As much as you can?   Michael: Yeah, well, I think you should be, you should be ready, willing and able to quarterback the process should you need to, I don't think in 90% of the instances, this doesn't happen. And things go smoothly in the title, company and lender work cohesively together. And you sometimes need to nudge people along and make sure everybody is talking and playing nice, get in the sandbox. But I absolutely do think that if you are going to play in this space, you need to be willing to be able to do this kind of stuff. Because this stuff happens clearly.   Emil: Right? I wonder if this is more of a refi thing, because I had the same thing on my Indy refi, where I had to do a lot of communicating between lender title and even like mobile notary, I had to set it all up and like coordinate with everybody so that docs were getting to the right person at the right time so that I could sign and everything. So I don't know if it's a refi thing, or maybe that's just coincidence that both of us have had this experience with refinances, but yeah, interesting.   Michael: It's so funny, you mentioned that, I mean, I totally forgot that part of the story. So at the end, at the like, the 11th hour, the title company finally gets back to me says, oh, we're gonna schedule a mobile notary. And what's your address? And we're going to hit the mobile notary and they'll come out and do sign docs. I said, great. That's awesome. This is my address. And I was actually out in Colorado at the time. So this was I don't know, like, noon or two.   And I was like, it's getting late. So if I need to go to the local notary store, let me know they said it and I will schedule mobile notary so great. This is we'll get back to you when we have something that's perfect. So, five o'clock comes and goes six o'clock comes and go seven o'clock comes and goes, I don't hear anything from anybody. So I called her love to message their offices, of course close as an emails, Hey, didn't hear from you or isn't mobile notary. Nothing happens so I was like great. And in the morning, we were headed out to Utah to the National Park making our way back to California. So I get this call at like seven o'clock. And this guy's like, Hey, I'm Have a mobile notary, are you? Are you still okay to sign? I'm like, No, dude, I'm on my way out of town driving to Utah. Like, no, he's like, I got an email last night. I didn't see it. Can I? Can I be there in 20 minutes? I'm like, Yes, fine, come in 20 minutes. So he signed all the paperwork knocked it out. I was like, Oh my god, everybody's dropping the ball.   Emil: There's a lesson there. And that and this is something I've learned recently, if you're a remote investor, which if you're listening to this show, you most likely are, you're gonna have to deal with mobile notaries all the time, you can't, you can't sign in person typically, right? Because your lenders not local or whatever it is, find a mobile notary near you and add them to your team for anytime you have closing Doc's like, I use the same person now he lives, I think five minutes away from me, I coordinate with him, him and I like know each other now, and it's so much easier to handle that stuff and make sure they're in the loop when you know the person and you use them over and over again. So that's something I recently started doing.   Michael: I was in Tahoe, Nevada, on vacation, and I had to sign something and they're like, oh, it has to be a California notary. I was like, Oh my god, are you serious? So I had to drive across the state border and then look up like a mobile notary and find them and they were like you coming to me I just broke my back like, Oh my god, what is going on?   So I think there's other takeaways just be flexible, be versatile, you know, be willing to flex a little bit because not everything is going to be the same as it was in prior closings. And especially with the remote aspect, things just are different. So be aware of that and be willing to Yeah, to just be flexible.   Emil: And things don't go smoothly. We try to hammer that point home right? You got to you got to be ready and accepting of the unexpected because that's kind of just real estate and especially with just lenders and closing and docs and all this stuff. It never goes according to plan smoothly, at least from my experience.   Tom: Be comfortable being uncomfortable.   Michael: Yeah, that's it.   Emil: Alright guys, any any final words before we wrap this one up?   Michael: Just be in constant communication with everybody who's involved?   Emil: Yep. Alright everybody. Thanks for joining us on this weekend wisdom. We will catch you all soon. Happy investing,   Tom: Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.

Should you invest in real estate directly or indirectly through a REIT? In this episode, we debate just that. Tom and Michael go head to head on this topic and halfway through, switch sides to give you their strongest arguments for both of them.  --- Transcript Pierre: Hey there, everyone. Welcome to the remote real estate investor. Today we're sharing an episode that we did a couple of weeks back on the pod bean finance week, you can catch all of the episodes that were a part of that at pod bean.com/podcastweek/finance or simply search pod bean finance week on your search engine. And this episode is a showdown debate like we've done in previous episodes.   This debate is between investing in real estate directly or investing in real estate indirectly through a real estate investment trust, also known as a REIT.   Tom and Michael will be debating it out with email mediating and halfway through, they'll switch sides. So I hope you enjoy the episode.   Norma-Jean And now we'll hand it off to our host of the live stream and the remote real estate investor podcast, Michael Tom and Emil, welcome.   Tom: Thank you.   Michael: Thanks so much.   Emil: We're the we're the last show today, guys. So we got to get everyone hyped up I'm sure people are kind of, you know, like ready to end their day ready to enter the weekends. We got to   Michael: It's five o'clock on Friday. Let's bring bring the energy.   Emil: Alright, so thanks, everyone, for joining us today. My name is Emil shore. And my co host here, as mentioned are Michael album and Tom Schneider. Say hi, guys. Hey, everybody. So we're gonna get into some quick intros on us in a second. But before we do that, wanting to give you all some background on the show, for those who are new listeners. So our podcast is called the remote real estate investor. And as you can imagine, there are tons of real estate investing podcasts out there, why did we decide to create a new one.   So there's this growing segment of investors who are bucking the trend of only investing in their backyard and finding ways to invest outside of their local market, either from hundreds of miles away. So think, living in Los Angeles, investing in Fresno, or investing across the country, so investing in the Midwest or the south east, or even in Michaels case, which we'll get into across the world.   So they're doing this because it's either too expensive to invest close to home. So think LA and New York, San Francisco, Seattle, any high cost of living area, or they're looking to diversify their portfolio across markets. And for anyone who's invested remotely, you know, it's a completely different ballgame with its own set of unique challenges, then if you're just investing locally, so we wanted to create this podcast and raise awareness and give our personal experience as remote investors. And we all invest that estate in different sizes of residential real estate. And we want to start this podcast again, just to educate people on on what that experience is like, and for people who are interested in potentially doing the same.   Besides us hosting a podcast where the three of us will will talk about our experiences. We also invite authors and industry experts to pick their brain as well on the show. So with all that out of the way, we'll we'll kick off some intros.   My name, again is Emil Shour. I'm a self employed marketing consultant living in the greater LA area. I started investing back in 2017. I picked up my first single family rental property in Jacksonville, Florida. I was hooked after I got my first quote unquote mailbox money, and have been growing ever since I've bought in Indianapolis, Memphis, St. Louis. And I'm up to six rental units of both single family rentals and small multifamily. Tom, you want to go next?   Tom Schneider Yeah, so my name is Tom Schneider. I am the Director of Education here at Roofstock. I've like people who have worked at startups before, I've worn a lot of different hats. I previously worked as the lead product at one of the very first publicly traded single family rental REITs. At Roofstock. I initially was on the product side building out tools to manage transactions and appraisals, all that kind of stuff. Then I led the operations team for a while.   And the last year or so, I found this really interesting kind of gap within within the company, and that there's a lot of people who want to invest in real estate who just maybe don't quite feel comfortable, especially doing it remotely. Or you have people who you know, make the plunge and buy remotely and they're like, okay, what's next. So I left my operations post and started this basically little company within the company called Roofstock Academy and I've been doing it for about a year or so with Michael leading the coaching home and Emil and Pierre as well. So really, really fun. career journey and where we're at right now is the super fun.   I am a also an active real estate investor. I invest primarily in the southeast, as well as the Midwest. I am a California real estate broker as well. And I am in I've got roughly 10 or so, investment properties and all single family rentals. Michael, with that, I'll turn it over to you.   Michael: Awesome. Thanks so much. So as I mentioned, my name is Michael Albaum. I'm the head coach with the rootstock Academy working with Tom. And so I started investing about 10 years ago, I used to work as a professional fire protection engineer in the commercial property insurance industry. And right about that time realized that that corporate job, the world wasn't going to get me where I wanted to go. So I started investing in real estate and doing all this kind of self education started with remote real estate in Southern California with a market I knew it was about six hours drive away from where I live, so some could call that local, but I call it remote.   And then I was traveling a lot for work throughout the Northwest us. And wherever I was traveling, I was constantly looking at the rental real estate market, because that's what real estate nerds do. And I found myself in a lot of really strong rental markets where the purchase prices were reasonable compared to what you could rent the properties for. So I was picking up properties all over the place and kind of left I felt like a bit of a slug leaving this trail of purchase properties in my wake. And it was a couple years ago that I got some advice that I was so spread out around the country with investments, it was pretty overwhelming.   So a good friend of mine says go get divert, go get laser focus on a particular market and go hammer it, watch what happens it'll blow your mind. And I said, Okay, that's kind of counterintuitive to everything. I thought I knew about investing in diversification. But that's what I've been doing the last couple years in the Midwest with medium sized multifamily value add properties. And so for anyone that might not be familiar with what that is, it's basically buying the junky as dirty as most beat up properties I can find for really cheap, putting a bunch of money into them, getting them repositioned, and either selling them sitting on the cash flow that they then produce or refinancing them and getting some of the equity back out as cash in my pocket. So we'll probably be talking about some of that during the episode today. But yeah, right now, I'm in the process of selling a couple units. But as it stands today, I think about 75 doors currently.   Emil: Nice. So we started with we gradually went higher in terms of experiences. So that's our thought, well, the intros.   Alright, so on our show, we like to do these things we call showdowns where we take a hotly debated topic, and we argue both sides of the aisle. So things like single family versus multifamily, using a property manager or managing by yourself using or investing in your backyard versus investing remotely, things like that. So one host will take one side, the other hosts will will take the other side and one of us will play moderator to make sure too many haymakers aren't thrown throughout the process.   So in today's showdown, we're going to cover investing in real estate directly. So think about just buying a property holding title in your name, all that fun stuff, or going down the much more passive route of investing in a real estate investment trust, which most people know as a REITs.   So Tom is going to take REITs first and Michael will make the case for investing directly. And I will play moderator. And so after that, after Tom and Michael each make their case, Tom will get the final word so we'll let Tom go first. Michael will get his follow up and then Tom gets the final word. And then we'll switch sides and Michael will go first Tom go second and Michael will wrap it up. And so guys just remember don't throw all your all your haymakers at your punches in the first round because you got to save some pros and cons that we didn't talk about, in round one and round two.   Michael: I just gotta say I feel a little it's like the underdog here. Tom,   Tom: You should feel like the underdog Michael.   Michael: Tom's worked in both the read space and the single family space. me just the single family space and multifamily space direct ownership side of things. So it'll be interesting. Tom, I hope you brought a towel to wipe, wipe yourself up.   Tom: A good one real original Michael real original.   By the way, love these questions that are coming in, we are definitely looking at this someone had just asked, you know, someone ended up using their first home as an investment property. How do you calculate cash flow? Considering all the mortgage I've been paying along with repairs and upgrades?   You know, one of the things about real estate investing is there are a lot of different metrics that you can follow. And I think for this particular example, in talking about your your first home and calculating the investment, I think thinking about opportunity costs would be important. So you know, of the money that you could take out if you were to sell it like that should you should think of that kind of as the basis as the money that you're returning on it.    So a metric that I liked a lot. And I know Michael likes a lot as well. And I think everybody likes it a lot is this metric called is called a cash on cash return. And what that is, is that's looking at the money that you put into the house using that as the denominator. And the numerator, the top of this division formula would be your net operating income. I don't want to get too far into the weeds because we got an episode going right here. But that's a really great way to think about it is what is your net operating income. So your total money you're collecting minus any expenses minus your mortgage payments for the year and dividing that by the the what you've what you've paid for the property. So I don't want to get too much down into the weeds into this. But it's a really good question. I think that's the way a lot of people get started as turning the first home they purchased into a rental property. So…   Emil: Nice. And I don't want to plug our show all the time. But there's an episode we did exactly on this it was called ignore the noise. Here's how to actually calculate projected cash flow. We walk through every single expense or line item that you should include as you're estimating cash flow. That's number 72. So if you're interested, we have an episode just on that.   Michael: And then I would just want to take one more question here as well. Someone's asking how do you get into real estate if you have no experience? Which is a great question. I think it's something that a lot of people run into, without being to promoty it here. I'd say come check out Roofstock Academy. It's a really great place and we designed it for investors who are just starting out all the way up to those investors that are looking to scale their portfolio, or get involved in new asset classes, we've got a YouTube channel as well, which is totally free information. bigger pockets is another great place to check out totally free. If you need some additional help, I think Roofstock Academy is an awesome, awesome place to come get one on one coaching, and over 50 hours of lectures. And I don't even need to get into that right now. Just check out check out the website.   Tom: I know, the questions are too much fun coming in. All right, I'm gonna just hit it real quick. So someone asked about investing from your Roth. So you can do what's called a self directed IRA. And there's several of these companies that can help facilitate them so you can invest out of your retirement fund be at your Roth or 401k. But it's a self directed IRA. And you know, there's a lot of different companies that facilitate that. I think we have a podcast episode that is specific to that. But if you search for that, like that's, it's it's really awesome, because a lot of people have a lot of money in their retirement account. And it's, it's not like your retirement account is completely limited to only investing in like equities and bonds, you can do alternative stuff, but it needs to be done through one of these Qualified Intermediary. Okay. All right. I'll take a pause on answering questions if we can get back to   Emil: I want to answer one, two, there's a Okay, jump in jump in. These are great I want to make. So Alright, last one, what's the biggest mistake people make with an out of market versus in market rental? I thought this was a great question. So I want to tackle it, yeah.   This is this is just my opinion, I think the easiest trap to fall into is when you go to another market, you fall into the quote unquote, like spreadsheet trap, where you'll find areas within a market that they the numbers look amazing, but because you maybe don't live there, and you don't know what it actually looks like, you know, maybe a rougher neighborhood, the tenant quality may be low or things like that. So you're you're, you're going in neighborhoods where the yield could be better, but you're potentially getting a lot more headaches with it. You don't, that you don't know about without that local knowledge, which is why we always like to recommend build a team locally, talk to property managers, agents, other investors in those areas to learn that market. Since you're not living there. You're not like driving by all these areas all the time. So that's, that's my one tidbit where I think a lot of people go astray.   Michael: I think, you know, all these questions are great. Please keep them coming. We will circle back and try to get to as many of them as we can throughout the episode. As we take natural pauses or if we have time at the end. We'll definitely come back. So keep them coming. These are all great.   Emil: Alright, so it's showdown time, guys, Tom, you're gonna kick off reads, Michael, you're gonna get into direct investing. Guys. I want a nice clean fight. Nothing below the belt, keep it clean. Go to your sockets.   Michael: He's talking to you, Tom.   Tom: Oh, God. Yeah. Good. Good one, Michael.   Michael: All right. All right. Let's, let's get this going.   Tom: Okay, so I'm going to be advocating for owning indirectly. So this is where you are not taking direct title or you're not setting up an LLC that you own the LLC and buying. This is like investing in a REIT. And there's a couple of different flavors of this. So it's one common way is they call it syndications where you're like investing in a fund, what we're talking about here in this argument is specifically investing in a REIT, which is, you know, a publicly traded company that owns a whole bunch of properties, I'm going to tell you why this is the route to go owning indirectly. So one, you get automatic diversification. When you're buying in a rate, you're not just buying one property, you got ownership all across the southeast, in the Midwest, Florida, Atlanta, Texas, you know, a lot of these REITs have a similar composition of geographies, that professional like Wall Street investors have selected these companies that these do these acquisitions, they have great resources, and they're curating this wonderful portfolio to you for you to buy in, to automatically get diversification across these markets.   The other pro of going this route of owning indirectly is the time requirements. If I'm buying a REIT, Holy smokes, I just have to like click a button I can buy it if you're buying real estate, directly or through an LLC heaven to Betsy, that's, that's a good little time chunk to do that. You know, there's a lot of tailwinds on why people like to do that. But just thinking of it as strictly as a time consideration, you're spending quite a bit of time versus just clicking a button and you automatically own that.   Let's see the last point that I'll make before I let Michael crawl into the ring is the liquidity aspect, right. So one of the biggest challenges with owning real estate is you park your money and it takes a little bit of effort to get it out. And there's also a lot of question marks on like, what that you know, what you're going to be able to get out of it. I mean, I think we've gotten there's a lot of great technology that can help people estimate on what their property is worth, you know, Zillow, and all that kind of stuff. But ultimately, like the market speaks with the market speaks and when you exit there, it's going to take a little bit of time. Usually if someone's buying cash, we're talking like 14 days or 30 days financing. But it's going to take time and there's going to be a lot of unclarity of what that exit price is.   So Michael, I'm gonna let you come on in and do your thing. But that is my side of the showdown for investing indirectly in real estate, remote real estate.   Michael: Tom, I really appreciate you giving me these gifts. But you know that it's not my birthday. I mean, this was really kind this really thoughtful.   Tom: Good, good one.   Michael: This is great. I love t ball. So this is great. I so appreciate these points. So I'm just going to respond to each one individually. And then I'll go on on my own rant. But so first of all talking about diversification, you have these Wall Street hedge fund managers, are they really taking your best interests at heart when they're choosing these properties? Are they looking to line their own pockets, and we get the scraps as the investors I'm not so sure that I'm not the best person to pick out hand pick and hand curate these properties for myself, based on my own personal risk tolerances and investment goals. So that's first and foremost, I would argue that I'm a better person to do that than at some Wall Street hedge fund manager.   The minimal time requirement. Yeah, I think that you're right, it is much easier to click a button. But I'm not sure how responsible that is, in the long run. And if somebody is learning wanting to learn how to invest in real estate, if they're looking at involved real estate as part of their portfolio, maybe they should learn the business inside and out. That way they can learn to feed themselves. Buying a read is like getting a fish. But investing directly is like learning how to fish. So I'm trying to eat for a lifetime man, I don't want just a one a one sushi dinner.   And then lastly, you mentioned the liquidity aspect of it. As we look at what's happening in the market today, I would argue that single family homes are becoming a much more liquid asset that are being bought, sold, valued and traded, almost like a commodity. So the fact that you see REITs buying these up by droves, almost as an indication that hey, this is now a commoditized asset class, which is pretty amazing. So I put my property on the market had to offer same day, and now I'm selling it inside of 30 days. If that's not liquid, I'm not sure what is.   But let me just kind of continue here, I want to make some additional points and give you you a chance to respond. So when I get to control every step of the process via direct ownership, when and how to purchase when to refi when to sell when to do upgrades, that is a massive, massive degree of control versus being in a read, you just get told what they did, you're getting told what the decisions were being made are and you get what you get, versus being able to be in the driver's seat.   Also, also, I think that leverage is a massive, massive piece of the pie here so I can control $100,000 worth of real estate for 20 grand in cash. How much could I get for 20 grand in cash, Tom?   Tom: Quite a bit, get quite a bit lots of got a lot of shares there Michael.   Michael: I would also say that the tax benefits of direct ownership far outperformed those of indirect ownership. So like we were saying in the beginning the episode, this is not tax advice. I'm not a tax expert, highly recommend speaking of tax professional before doing any real estate, anything real estate related, so that you understand the tax consequences. But I'm curious to know, can you do a 1031 exchange out of because when you go to sell those shares by guessing you're going to be hit with a pretty hefty tax bill versus me as a direct owner, I can take all of my proceeds and profits and roll those into another deal.   And then the last thing that I want to mention what happens Tom what a bunch of teenybopper short the REITs, like they did with game stock, but now it's called REIT stock. What are you going to do that?   Tom: Boy, okay, all right. Oh, all right.   Emil: Guys, remember we have around two So see, yeah, leave some punches for round two.   Tom: Alright, I'll throw the throw them. Are you ready for rebuttal? Michael?   Michael: Let's do it. I would love to,   Tom: You know what you're doing when you add that property, direct ownership, you're buying yourself another job. And I think we're doing this for to become passively wealthy. So in buying a rate, you know, you're getting exposure to the asset class. And at the end of the day, it's a it's passive, you know, I think that remote real estate investing directly like can be passive, but it takes a little bit overhead on the front end, that when you buy it through a reap you don't have that overhead. It's you know, it's how quickly can you like click Buy on the stock exchange. So that will be my final point is the timing aspect.   Michael: After that, nicely done.   Emil: Back to your corners back to your corners. Well done. Well done lots of good stuff. There injury caught me cut me. There's definitely a lot left around too. So Michael, you are Now we're going to get the first word.   Tom: Why don't we? Why don't we break up round two? There's a couple of questions that are kind of fun. So we have some more. Michael I think this is a good one for you.   I became an accidental landlord, twice, would you recommend creating an LLC?  You go out and go? You go out and lead the way, Michael? And again, you know, this is not there's people who have had success in both different ways. This is not legal advice. This is just our personal opinions on and on that stuff. So go ahead, Michael lead the way.   Michael: Yeah, totally. So it's a really good question. So there are really two camps. On the subject pro LLC, and no LLC, the pro LLC camp says it's great to segregate and silo your assets from everything else that no LLC camp says, Oh, just get high liability limit insurance, it'll be just as good. Who's right at the end of the day is only determined after a lawsuit. And by then it's too late. So I'm personally of the pro LLC camp. I like having things in silos and separate buckets so that people can't come after my personal assets, and vice versa.   So being a California resident, it's very expensive to have an LLC, it's $800 a year even if the LLC doesn't do anything, or own anything. So I would say, Look into what's involved with starting an LLC wherever you live, and also what's required in maintaining an LLC, since there's documents that likely have to be filed on some sort of regular frequency, and there might be some dues or taxes that are that are due. And then ultimately, you can decide at the end of the day, what makes the most sense.   I mean, you can go get an umbrella policy to sit on top of your dwelling liability limits for somewhere in the ballpark of $300 per million. So if you go get an umbrella policy for 600 bucks, that's get to 2 million in coverage that'll also sit over your homeowner's personal homeowners and your auto, you know, that might be a good solution if it's really expensive to have an LLC, where you live, it's having an LLC, where you live is practically free, you know, then it could be a good way to go. Just know that the LLC, there's some additional accounting overhead that's involved with owning an LLC. And depending on how you're going to be taxed and might be, it'll likely show up on your personal tax return. Again, depending on the type of the LLC and how you designate the taxation. So it can be a good thing. So definitely look into it, talk to a local attorney about again, what's involved with starting it and maintaining it. And then you have to decide what makes what might make the most sense for you.   Tom: Yeah, you know, other considerations, if you're out in the process of buying or getting a loan, some lenders, like will not do conventional lendings to an LLC, like they wanted in your in the owner's name. So like some of those related processes could be a little bit more challenging with an LLC. But you know, again, there isn't like a major, like tax savings and like having an LLC, in fact, it's actually going to cost you more. It's not like you're getting extra tax benefits. But again, this is not tax advice, please talk to your tax in having an LLC, so I, you know, I personally have, you know, my, my name, and that's something you know, once you get over 10, you have to start doing private lending, so you might as well like, put it in LLC. So I think in just at two, like I'd say it's pretty common for people who have just two properties to not not have it in an LLC to have it in their name. But again, it's it's a it's a liability, kind of risk tolerance, kind of question.   Emil: And also that point of lending, even if you already have loans on those properties, right. So even if you're not in the process of buying, but you actually own them, moving them into an LLC can like, have some ramifications. So you need to check with your lender before you do. Some lenders will say Oh, if it changes title, so if it goes from your name into the name of the LLC, you basically the the loan comes due and you have to pay the whole thing. So make sure if you have an existing loan in place on that property, you check with your lender before you make that move as well.   Tom: Go ahead, Michael.   Michael: I was gonna move questions, but go ahead, wrap it up.   Tom: Yeah. I was gonna move questions, but I'll let you use you breathe in as the emotion you hit the buzzer first. So go ahead.   Michael: About investing in the Roth. So from a kept we keep we keep harping on this, but not tax advice, not legal advice. So as I understand it, because of Roth is what's technically called a tax free growth account versus a tax deferred account. Any of the gains that you make inside a Roth, whether that's direct ownership and stock, bonds, real estate, any of the gains that you make, or profits that you make are tax free, so that when you go to access or make withdrawals from that fund, or from that account, they are not taxed. Same thing with real estate flipping. So I have been told and cautioned not to do this too often, because if the IRS sees you running a business inside of your Roth, I think they are frowning upon that. So plan is to do one to two a year to help boost some of the returns. But basically, I get to control the entire process. Well actually gonna take it back.   There's a lot of things that I can't do. There's a lot of red tape and specifics with regard to how the deal has to be done and what you can and can't do. Do so I physically can't do any work on the property, I can't, I can't, I don't believe I can personally manage the property. But again, it's a flip. So I'm buying a property, all cash, financing the flip all cash and then going to be selling the property hopefully for a significant gain, all of which proceeds will should and should be tax free, so that I can go do it either again, or then put those funds back into the stock market.   So in theory, it's a really, it's a really cool vehicle. I've heard a lot of people have a lot of success with it. And I'm very excited to be on this journey. So again, I'll have to keep everybody posted on how it goes assuming I end up purchasing the property that I have under contract.   Tom: Nice, nice. Alright, Emil, you ready to start round two?   Emil: Alright, so let's get start with round two. Michael, you're going to start by taking the side of reeds. Tom will get to go with direct investing. And then Michael, you get the final rebuttal.   Tom: You're in trouble. Michael, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.   Michael: It's amazing that my birthday is gonna come twice in the same episode, I just, I'm really excited. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to not make the same points that Tom made. Because they weren't good points. Anyhow. So let me let me start by saying that I think that reads have access to capital A deals that I as an individual investor could never imagine, never have access to. And so simply, because of the economies of scale, they're getting more deals for cheaper and can also save on operational costs. So I as an individual investor, I'm likely never going to be even seeing the types of deals that they're doing. And I'm likely not going to be able to generate those kinds of returns for clicking a button for just putting my money into their deal. And sitting back and enjoying the benefits.   So in a REIT, I can also get extremely predictable returns, if you're owning a single home, and the HVAC goes out, which I promise you, if you're in this business long enough, it will, you have to replace it, that could be three to four to five years worth of cash flow on that particular house. So I personally, I really liked the regular distributions, I'll take my monthly quarter quarterly or annual distribution, check whatever the frequency is, and not lift a finger, I don't wanna have to worry about replacing roof shingles replacing the entire roof for the HVAC.   And then the other piece of this is I like the diversification that I can get with a read. If I own one house, and it becomes vacant, I'm 100% vacant. But if I own a read that owns multiple properties, if one goes vacant, I'm never even gonna know about it. So the diversification I get, I'm really able to spread the risk across multiple properties and not have to think about Oh, man, is my tenant not able to pay rent this month? What does that mean for me as the owner.   And then lastly, as an international investor, Reed's provide a much easier path to getting exposure into the real estate into the US real estate markets, I don't have to go through the process of getting a green card or getting approved for a loan or getting a bank account as a foreigner, I can just simply by the REITs and get the exposure to the markets without having to jump through all the hurdles. And being an international investor, I understand all the hurdles that one normally has to go through just to get a bank, a bank loan.   Tom, I know, I see you're kind of bloodied over there already. I'll let you let you kind of come in and just and share your piece.   Tom: Okay, so this is what I'm talking about why owning direct is, you know, I agree with my first points I made was very relevant, you know, it is a little bit of a time overhead to do it. But once you do that initial overhead of time, there is no greater wealth creator than real estate. And I'm going to talk about a couple of those reasons and why it's so specific to direct ownership.   So Michael kind of sloppily trenched you know, like a, like a, like a pig walking through some beautiful flower bed he didn't really the highlight the the numbers so the tax advantages, so I'm gonna I'm gonna let you guys all know, I got an acronym for you to stay with us. It's the three Ds of real estate direct ownership, there is deductions. So right, all these costs that you you have, so you're paying your property manager, you're fixing the H fac, guess what, that's all a deduction, you can have a paper loss with real estate, even though you're like making money. So the first D deduction.   The second one deferral, right. So in owning the property every year you can you see me depreciation, I jumped ahead depreciation every year that they own the property, you can write, you know, write off this depreciation of the property over, you know, a certain number of years, so you're just taking more paper loss in third is this deferral so I can sell my property, move those proceeds to buy another property and not pay a red cent of taxes on moving out and it's crazy. It's like my wife and my wife's a tax attorney and she like blows your mind whenever she like looks over the advantages of real estate So the three DS is something that you can do with direct ownership that you're not going to be able to do with the REIT is incredible.   The other piece, so having worked at a publicly traded REITs, I remember following the stock price, and thinking to myself, like, This is nuts, like we are performing incredibly, like our vacancy is very low, our overhead is low, all this good stuff. But guess what the price did not reflect that. And I think there's something really frustrating about, you know, a butterfly in Korea, that can chaos theory can like, affect your stock price. I'm kind of like a piglet walking around in a in a rose garden right now. So a, you know, your stock price is there's so many things that are not related to the performance of the asset, with the publicly traded REIT versus your rental property where Guess what, if they pay rent on the first of the month, good news, your value just went up, you don't have to worry about these, you know, externalities that are just out of your control. It's straight direct performance.   You know, kind of related these bigger companies, there's a lot of overhead with them, there's paying that CEO that big salary, there's, you know, all the Sarbanes Oxley public company, yada, yada, yada, there's just a lot of costs that go into that. And by owning it directly, you strip all those costs, and you put them in your back pocket.   The last thing I'll say is in owning individually, in a you know, I can see this argument going either way, you also have the publicly traded REITs, they're basically a very similar composition, they have pretty much the same leverage at like roughly 50% of these other single family REITs, they all have pretty much the same footprint of like the same cities. So in buying individually, it's like using, you know, a shotgun versus a excuse, a sniper versus a shotgun and a violent comparison. But anyways, it's being very direct with what are the markets that you believe in, and you can be way more targeted in that process. And, and honestly, like, you know, like I said, it can be a little bit more time on the upfront, but it's really rewarding down the line in that you set up these systems and the mailbox money is real, and you're paid directly on the performance of the asset versus this, you know, investing indirectly in these in these public REITs. So, all right, go ahead. Go ahead, Michael.   Michael: Tom, I think it's so comical that you think that you'll have access to better analysis tools than professional advisors.   Tom: That's why Roofstock was invented, Michael, that's why Roofstock was invented. So you know, bringing Wall Street to Main Street, go ahead. You know, what, if you said that five years ago, I'd say you're right, that is comical of me to say, but it's different now, Michael, different that.   Michael: The Times have changed. I know. I know.   Tom: Seriously?   Michael: Yeah. But I'm sticking to my guns for round two here and that and then we'll circle back and, and convene. So I think that the analysis tools that these investors have professional investors have far outweigh that of the individual investor with you, and he can Google and have access to there's just no way we can compete. So that's first and foremost. Secondly, you know, I don't want to be worrying about my neighbor not mowing their lawn or keeping trash on their lawn, which is now going to drag the value of my property down, versus the stock market. When the stocks go up, man, we are, sky's the limit, man, we are screaming up there. So you know, the individual ownership, it just you're subject to what your neighbors are doing. And I think that that's too impactful versus the aggregate of being spread across multiple markets and numerous properties, you can spread that risk out, you can peanut butter spread that risk out across multiple properties.   So I just think it's kind of a no brainer, you know, I don't want a second job. You mentioned it so nicely in the first round. I want that mailbox money. And there's no way that going through the process of getting a mortgage finding a property manager checking in on the property manager possibly having to change the property manager like Emil is in the process of doing, getting insurance quotes that you're running through right now. Filing tax returns with the CPA making, checking on his tax returns the CPA. It's just it's craziness. It's madness. You know, what kind of world do we live in? Where if someone thinks they have time for that? I'm REITs all the way man.   Emil: All right.   Tom: That's not true. That's ending with a lie of Michael a great way to end your argument only for the purposes of this show. But for the for the show for the.   Michael: Absolutely.   Emil: All right. You're done. You guys are done. I'm cutting both off. You guys can't see anymore. Your ears are swollen. Nice job, guys. There was a couple things I wrote down that I wanted to touch on that. For each side, I'll start with reads. I don't think anyone mentioned that there's less money to get started. So the reeds, you can go invest like 1000 or a couple you know, if you don't have the money to put a down payment on a single family home, or he could be a good way to get some real estate exposure for much, much cheaper.   Michael: That was gonna be by knockout blow, but you called it too quickly Tom was already down,   Emil: I want to hop in the ring too   Michael: The ref is putting on gloves.   Emil: Right? And then reads, um, I think it was kind of touched on it. But you have professional management like these people manage 1000s 10s of 1000s of homes, they know what they're doing, they have the scale to just have the most efficient, awesome processes to like to know this stuff. So I'd, I'd say they're, they're very professional. versus when you go direct, you're dealing with a property manager who maybe only has 100, or you're self managing and dealing with that nightmare.   Going back to the direct side, doing a cash out refi, you can't. So let's say your property value goes up your interest, interest rates go down, you can actually pull some of the equity out in that home, you still own the property, you're still making a profit each month, but now you just maybe got your original down payment back by doing a cash out refi. And you can go reinvest that elsewhere.   Tom: Emil, I think you might have won this fight these points you're making are really, really good. So sorry, continue just stepping on the back right now.   Emil: Thank you, Tom. Yeah. And then the last one is, is building equity. So with direct you, you get equity in a home, right? So yes, you guys mentioned the leverage benefit, right, you can buy $120,000 with a home for 25k, or whatever it may be. But then also you have a tenant. So you're making cash flow each month, hopefully, making profit each month. And then you're you're also having your tenant, pay your mortgage, and you're building equity in this home. Versus with a REIT you don't get that you kind of you, you put your money in and it's paying you a dividend out or whatever it is, each month or quarter, whatever it is. So otherwise, you guys nailed everything else.   Tom: So we got a fun question that came in. What do you get? What do you guys think about tiny houses, and I love me a tiny house. So a great strategy that some investors use. Now, this isn't a remote strategy. But a great strategy some investors use to get going is the strategy called house hacking. And that is where you buy a property and you live in it. And either in the other room or the other unit or the other little tiny house, you make that a rental.   So it's a way that you are, you know, starting you are owning property, but you're also collecting that rents to either offset your mortgage, or just have a little, you know, extra cash on the side. So the tiny house is a great, you know, way to start generating some income. I think it should be done through the same financial rigor that you would do in evaluating buying like a different property. So looking at what those costs are and what kind of rents you would get. And, you know, establishing Okay, what is that cash on cash? Or what is that cap rate, or IRR? There's there's a ton of different metrics that people use. And I mentioned we we all really like cash on cash as a metric. I think IRR is fantastic to just thinking about total return.   So to final might make my final point on the tiny houses. Yeah, yeah, I think that that that strategy can make sense. Especially if you don't maybe don't feel comfortable and want to be right on top of your investment. I think the downside is you know, if there's whatever broken toilet, whatever that person is right there. One of the things I love about remote investing is I have professional property manager where there's anything wrong going on, I'm not answering phone calls, they're managing it, you know, I pay them a percentage of the rent they collect every month, but I'm okay paying for them that because they're making it like a very passive investment for me.   Michael: I love this question two. And it's so timely, I'm actually in the midst of looking at a couple of deals to set up Tiny Homes on the property. So Bay Area, California is really expensive. And so my wife and I are looking to move. And so we're looking at property and looking at what the zoning requirements are for placing some of these tiny homes. And it's interesting because you can put them on a foundation and make them permanent, you can put them on a trailer make them non permanent Airbnb, long term rental, there's all kinds of regulations around how you have to do this. But I think that there are absolutely ways to go about doing it and make a significant profit.   There are multiple different styles of Tiny Homes to I've we just came across a company that's up in the Bay Area. That makes them out of containers, their container homes. So those are pretty cool. There's modular homes there stick built at us. So there's all different ways to slice that pie. But Tom, I think hit the nail on the head that you still want to evaluate it and see if it makes sense as a financial investment. And then also I would be looking at what the property value might jump to after the fact a lot of people like having a granny unit or additional 80 or whatever you want to call it. That could add some tremendous value to the property. So then combining a couple of these different strategies you go put in an ADU now you go get a refinance the property is worth more you can take some cash out it's kind of a combination of a burr house hack into   Tom: There's a ton of tailwinds for Tiny Homes to just I think local areas are getting more friendly, like in wanting it to be a little bit more dense. And then also with the pandemic, like having, like an extra little office or something is, you know, quite a premium of, you know, having having that I feel like it's probably, you know, this is a little bit subjective and be commenting on it. But I feel like that has greatly increased the value I, I just had a no no parallel thing with me her turn just ended in like, wow, that would have been really nice to have a little extra little unit instead of just like, right in right in the grille of the house. But anyways, it was a good experience, though. AuPair but it would have been nice with a little in law or whatever. Granny tiny home.   Michael: That's, that's a great plug for aupairs too. was great. It was great. Yeah.     Emil: I just saw so funny. This question came up, I just fell into a YouTube black hole. And it was this guy who, I don't know if he builds them baizen whatever. But he has tiny homes across the country. He manages them all himself remotely. He has 10 across the country, Airbnb ism. So all short term rentals, and he's making like 2k a month on each one, like, just, he has 10 of them, he quit his job like he has he manages himself so he gets like a cleaning crew and a local handyman, a contractor and he just has all these Tiny Homes cross country if that was pretty cool.   Tom: I just thought of a business idea. So you…   Michael: own 10 Tiny Homes across country, right?   Tom: Find like a big enough of a lot, right? And then you you do like a lease on the lot for like 30 years. You do it for free, but then they get the building after that time period. Right You follow me? So you so you you have whatever the 30 years of income you're generating there. There's got to be some clause in there at the property transfers, but I the tiny home Empire, the tiny home leasing, whatever the like, you know, whatever. How many square feet of land? Well, I think there's some, there's some   Michael: there's definitely some there's definitely something there. Yeah, there's definitely something there. We'll have to do another episode about that. The remote real estate investor Tiny Home Empire,   Tom: Tiny home Corner lot Empire.   Michael: So I think we should also touch base Tom on kind of our personal thoughts about the battle, and personal views and opinions. So you know, and ending with a live for me, which is you totally caught me. I am a big, big, big proponent of invest of direct ownership. Everything I do, for the most part is direct ownership. I don't think I own, I might own a couple shares of a couple different reads. But it's a very, very small percentage of my portfolio. I just think that I think you mentioned it really nicely. The tailwinds of direct ownership are so massive when directly compared to indirect ownership and read that for me, it becomes a no brainer.   If you have the time, if you have the will, if you have the desire to learn the real estate investing business, I think that there's no better way to do it than indirect ownership, you might start out in a read and try to understand what's going on. But to be honest, from my experience, and Tom, you'll know better than me, but you're not. The REIT folks that people who are involved in the read are not holding the hands of their investors, showing them financial statements, profit and loss reports, they can see reports understood helping them understand how the business is run. Is that fair to say?   Tom: Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's good and bad ones, just like any other business, but you know, I guess you kind of continue on to it. It's like, you know, it's kind of like, it's, I think of it as like a little bit of a hobby as well, you know, of doing this type of remote investing. And yeah, there's a good quote out there you know, everyone should have three hobbies, one that makes them happy one makes them health healthy, and one that makes them rich, and like this very much fits in that kind of ladder category of hobbies to have and you know, like, like, like we've talked about, there's a little bit of work that you do upfront. And then sometimes as things come up either you're selling or whatnot. But it's it it's honestly like I it's really enjoyable. I don't know it's it's, it's fun. Yeah.   Emil: Real Estate Investing kind of covers two of them for me personally like that. The happy in the wealthy, which is nice. Until you know, you have a pipe burst, and you're like, this is why I do this. What am I doing? But then you have enough of those urges, like you know, it's a home. things break, you fix them, you move on, it's all good. Yep, the first couple that hurt, they hurt a lot.   Michael: Well, it's one of those things that unless you know what to expect it, it sucks even more. So if you go into this eyes wide open. We talked about in the academy all the time. It's so important to go get educated what you know where you do, that doesn't really matter. But just make sure that you go get educated by people that understand what they're talking about. So you go into this investment eyes wide open. Because the last thing that I want to hear and I hate hearing about it is somebody buying a single family home thinking it's like a REIT, thinking that their experience is going to be like that of a read, especially with a lot of these turnkey providers. Oh, it's so easy.   There's still stuff that has to get done. So again, go get educated. Go ask questions, go learn about what's involved with owning and operating single family rentals or rental real estate for that matter, so that you're not surprised or you're less surprised rather because, again, you're going to be surprised if you're in this business long enough. I can promise you that. So you just want to understand what are the risks? What are the pros, what are the cons? Okay, great. Let's Let's do it. I know there's going to be surprises and I was gonna be speed bumps. I'm okay with that. You know, then then direct ownership is probably for you.   Pierre Alright, everyone, that was episode. Thanks so much for listening. If you liked the podcast, make sure to subscribe and leave us a comment that helps us out a lot. And also go check out the Roofstock channel on YouTube. We post all of our episodes there along with a bunch of other content from the Roofstock team. Thanks so much for listening. Happy investing.

This episode is an example of what the Roofstock Academy Mastermind sessions look like. Mastermind groups have long been a powerful tool that successful people use to support each other and advance their goals. Gathering a group of motivated individuals with a diverse range of skillsets to focus on one person at a time helps shine fresh light on challenges, uncover new solutions and provide accountability. The Mastermind group is just one of the many benefits we offer inside the Roofstock Academy. --- Transcript Tom: Greetings, and welcome to Roofstock Academy. My name is Tom Schneider. And I'm joined by Michael Albaum, Ryan Minekime and Dean West, and today we're going to be walking through a template of a mastermind group.   So this is a mastermind session that lasts about an hour. And we're going to be going through the regular activities where everyone is going to provide an update on their successes, their challenges. We're going to go into specific action items. And then we're going to put Ryan on the hot seat and talk about what he's working on. We're going to grill them, we're going to give them some feedback, all that good stuff. All right.   Dean: All right. Hi, everyone. My name is Dean West, a Roofstock Academy coach. And I have been investing in a couple markets now. Primarily Atlanta and Indianapolis. I believe I'm the the remotest real estate investor. I'm currently in Cape Town, South Africa, while investing in the US.   Ryan: Hello everyone, I'm Ryan Minekime. I'm also coach at the Roofstock Academy. I've been investing for about seven or eight years, I started out investing in California. And now I'm doing bur investing in the Indianapolis market as well. And I live in the Bay Area, California.   Tom: Hey, my name is Tom Schneider. I'm also a coach at Roofstock Academy. I have been investing for about 10 years, and I invest remotely in the southeast of the United States as well as the North East.   Michael: Hey, everybody, I'm Michael album, I'm also a coach at the Roofstock Academy. I like Ryan got my start investing in Southern California about a decade ago and do value add multifamily investing all over the country with a emphasis and focus on the Midwest on some of those Midwest markets.   Dean: Alright. So I'm really excited today to on behalf of rootstock Academy to be introducing mastermind groups. And a mastermind group is something that's actually quite near and dear to my heart. It's It's when I first started out several years back, I was in my own mastermind group with three other people. And that's the one thing that really spurred me to take action on my real estate investing and pushed me both professionally and personally.   So the mastermind group what it is, it's a accountability group of like minded people. So groups typically consist of three to five people. And there's certain roles within the group. And how it's broken down is it's broken into four major sections. And the sections talk about kind of the week overview, talking about, you know, some of the challenges and successes that you've had during the week goes then into talking about, you know, what, what your major or epic goal is that you're trying to achieve. And it doesn't just have to be in real estate, I actually I encourage people to talk about not just real estate, but also kind of personal if you're looking to lose 10 pounds or something like that, as well as invest in a property in Dallas, Texas. Great, put it out there. And I think it's something that's, that's really helpful for people to grow.   One of the big things we do in a mastermind group is what's called the hot seat, the hot seat is kind of a deep dive. So every week on a rotating basis, and the hot seat is chosen for one person and and that person talks about any challenge that they're having that they're trying to overcome. And they use the rest of the group as a sounding board, or as a way of soliciting feedback to try and overcome that challenge. And if you don't have challenges for the week, that's fine as well. You can talk about your, your kind of your roadmap to success and just see what what people have to say about, you know, the structure that you've put in place to achieve that epic goal.   And then the last section is is talking about what are you committing to? What are you committed to from next week? What are you going to achieve before the next mastermind group. And I think it's really important to to set a goal. But ultimately, if you like myself, we don't always follow through with it and mastermind groups, hey, I don't quote me on this here. But there was a study done when the University of California University is talking about how, you know, if you set a goal, that's great, but if you set a goal with in a mastermind group, you're 76% more likely to actually achieve that goal.   So I think that that resonates really well with me, just being my personal background of getting introduced to mastermind groups, and I really hope it's a success for all of you.   Michael: And I think it was something like 37% of statistics are made up on the spot, but that probably wasn't one of them.   Dean: Absolutely not. Not this one. Yeah, so I think what we're gonna do now is just give you a bit of a taste of a dry run of a mastermind group in action. So this is the first time we're meeting together as a formation of this, this mastermind group. So the first meeting is always a slightly different than the second, the third meeting, we have a template that will be going through the four roles, which I should touch on as well says the moderator, which I will be today, the moderator is typically in charge of setting up the meetings, and really just helping to facilitate the discussion move things along during the call.   The second piece is the timekeeper. So Michael will be our timekeeper for today, very important.They are the ones that are tracking minute by minute, you know that making sure we're on schedule. And if we are running off schedule, or someone's speaking a bit long, they will help gently remind them that they're going over their allotted time.   The third role is the the note taker. So Tom will be our note taker today. They will be the responsible for filling out the template, jotting down what people's commitments are epic goals, and then at the end of the mastermind group, they will, they will then share that document with the rest of the group.   And then fourth is the hot seat. So Ryan will be in our hot seat today. And that, again, is just talking about about half the time has spoken about just a challenge or a roadmap that they're trying to achieve. And they'll be walking through that.   Michael: And Dean do these positions rotate from meeting to meeting. Are they consistent throughout the life of the group?   Dean: Yeah, absolutely. So they do rotate to keep things you know, make sure everyone gets a fair a fair say throughout the sessions. So every week it typically rotates. And at the end of the meeting is typically when we decide on on the hot seat for next week who the facilitators timekeeper, etc.   Michael: Awesome.   Dean: Great. Awesome.   All right. So let's dive right in. Like I said, I'll be the moderator today. Tom, the note taker, Michael, the timekeeper, and then Ryan, the hot seat. And so kicking off is our overview section. So this in this section here, we talk about our, our challenges and successes, we typically don't want to talk for a second, I think for 5 minutes. So we only want to talk for about a minute or so about, you know, just some highlights some of the successes or the highs and lows of the week. And just to help inform the group.   Michael: Gentlemen, five minutes on the clock, start your engines.   Dean: Thank you, Michael.   So I can I can kick it off. So my my challenges and successes of the week. I guess I'll start off with my successes. I always like to start off on a high note. And is twofold. Actually, I last week, I rented out to my units that were vacant. So that is all taken care of now, which I'm very excited about. And then my second success is taxes cuz I like to cross donate and taxes. I've been pushed back a month. But that's didn't help me because I just pushed it my work back a month as well. So pretty much done to my taxes. And then one of my challenges for the week is just a personal challenge. Just the motivation to to work out on my side. Michael, you want to kick us off next?   Michael: Sure. So a high for me was I celebrated my two year wedding anniversary this past week, which was a lot of fun my wife and I did something really nice and special. My challenged that I had this week was I had a selling a six unit property that I bought as a buy and hold originally, but really turned it into a fix and flip over about a course of a year and a half. And that fill out a contract kind of went sideways due to a massive utility bill spiking and throwing off all of the valuations of the property. Because it's a multifamily commercial building, it trades based on cap rates and noi, and the noi got vastly decimated by this utility bill. So it's an estimated building, we're trying to figure out what to do with it, we're probably just going to take it off the market try to re stabilize it get the tenants in line, possibly even mass or sub meter everything or institute a rubs which is a ratio utility billing system and get the noi back in line and then bring it back on market at the end of the summer here.   Dean: Tom Do you want to go next?   Tom: I've been just dragging my feet like nobody's business on getting my insurance updated. I use the initial insurance that was provided to me and I, I knew that I wanted to change it and it's literally like years and years later. So I have officially bundled that with my personal through a big insurance broker. So kind of a big, big win for something that's just lasted way too long. And I'm also gonna I'm going to glob on to that success of getting taxes. That's something that I like to drag my feet on as well. But I have that submitted some challenges is I have a lot of balls in the air right now. With refinancing three properties, and it's a little bit ambiguous to me right now on where all of them sit, like I've been responding to emails as they come in, but I think it could be a little more proactive in reaching out to my lender. So I'd say the challenge is just being a little bit too passive in the process. Because, you know, I think there's there could be some timing considerations with, you know, making sure the loan rate lock and all that stuff. So, yeah, it's a challenge is just being a little bit more organized on some of these less organized than I should be on some of these refinances.   Michael: Is this all with the same lender, Tom or different lenders?   Tom: All the same lender.   Dean: Yeah. All right, Ryan.   Ryan: So I will start with challenges. And then we can end on a high note on my challenges. I think I've put in three offers over the past 10 days or so. And all of them got outbid by like, 40k on like, 150k purchase price. So just everything's getting taken very quickly. So that was a challenge is getting a little defeated there and putting in offers on the successes, I started looking at off market properties, which we'll jump into when I get in the hot seat. But I got two appointments that this week with potential sellers. So that was a positive note.   And then also my wife and I are said to have a baby on Thursday. And so this past weekend, we just did like everything as our last time before kids. So like we went to a brewery and we're like, Okay, this is the last time I'm going to burger for kids. We went to out to dinner, we're like this is our last date and like 18 years so. So we just, we went through and sort of did a bucket list of things we wanted to we wanted to do.   Tom: Just say Congrats. I joined the the dad club like a year and a half ago and the water's warm. It's It's It's awesome. My one my recommendation would be getting one of those giant yoga balls that you can sit on is one of the few things a dad can you know, to calm a baby like, you know, the bouncing up and down. Mom's got some special tools built right into her to help calm a baby. But yeah, I'd get one of those big yoga bouncy balls. But congratulations. That's really awesome.   Ryan: Yeah. Thank you exciting.   Dean: All right, Michael, how are we doing on time here?   Michael: We got nine seconds we crushed that guy's. Perfect,   Dean: Look at that. All right. So the next section is commitment. So we talk, this is about a 10 minute section roughly. And it's broken down to these three subsections. Again, the first one, this is our first mastermind group meeting, it will be slightly different.   But for this meeting, we'll be talking about our epic goals. Like I said, again, it doesn't just have to be real estate focus, think about you know, something in your personal life that you want to achieve, whether it be changing careers, or you know, losing weight, or whatever it is, and on top of your real estate goals as well.   So that's your your epic goal. We talked about also, it's what's called last week's commitment. Since we didn't have a commitment last week, we won't speak about it. And then if that commitment was completed, yes or no.   So I'll start off. Again, what's the timeline for the epic goals? It's it's pretty important like we talked about in restock Academy, setting your SMART goals and making sure it's realistic, timely, etc.   Ryan: What's the timeline for the epic goals?   Dean: You want to set a timeline around it, say epic goals typically, in your three to six month period is typically what you will try and shoot for. Alright, so starting off myself. So my first, it's not really an epic. I would call it more of a grand goal. And so one notch down from an epic goal. But you know, within the next three months, I do want to do a 401k Roth IRA conversion, as well as doing a cost segregation, potentially do a cost segregation study on my four Plex if the numbers make sense.   So what I'm trying to do as much as I can this year, as I'm shooting for my real estate, tax professional status, is I want to try and drive up as many expenses or deductions that I can this year in order to kind of offset my my wife's income. And number two is. So within the next three months, I also want to take over the management of my Indianapolis portfolio. And that's a couple of reasons but number one is an a bit underwhelmed with my PM at the moment, especially after doing my taxes just kind of seeing where things lie. And it also drive up my net operating income for my portfolio.   And then the third reason actually one of the more important ones is the reason I want to do this is because I need more hours for my tax professional status. I think we need 750 hours. And so I want to make sure that I reach that. My last goal and personal goal for me is that within the next three to four months, I want to be able to meditate everyday consistently for at least 15 minutes. And my mind is always on so many different places at once and I'd really like to kind of take a deep breath and kind of be able to focus. And I think meditation is a good aspect for that. So those are my epic goals, or grand goals.   Michael?   Michael: Awesome. So, by July 31, I would like to have my development projects completed, finished and started to get rented. So I've talked about this on a lot of other podcasts, a lot of other episodes, I'm redeveloping a 20,000 square foot commercial use, or mixed use building and creating 15 residential units and two commercial spaces out of that it has been a long, sweaty, bloody tear field road, that we're not quite done yet, but starting to get there. So I'm trying to get that over the finish line. By July 31. I'm going to speak that into reality.   Then I just got a flip property under contract, I'm doing a flip inside of my Roth IRA, something I wanted to try my hand at. So I just got a small property under contract, I'm looking at have that completed, that flip completed and marketed within the next 45 days, we're due to close in two weeks. So that's a pretty aggressive timeline, but I think it can be done.   And then on a more personal note, similar to Dean, I want to focus more on sleep, I've definitely noticed over time, my sleep has deteriorated, I think mostly to be me being in my own head. So many things like Tom and Dean, I've got a lot of balls up in the air and constantly thinking about that. And I need to really help separate for myself, the personal world, from the business world and the sleep world from the business world, which I find hard to do, I'm not really not good at condense or condensing is wrong word. But, boxing, if you will, different different aspects. And I'm always thinking and always switched on. So I need to really help focus on on switching off. So that's definitely a big focus of mine over the next three to six months.   Dean: Right. Awesome, Michael? Thank you, Tom?   Tom: Yeah, so in going through the reef eyes that I'm doing, I need to redeploy that capital on the cash that I'm getting back. So I'm expecting to have those funds in the bank sometime in early May. So I'd love to have it two to three properties in contract by the end of May. You know, I guess, being sequential about this, I've been an SFR guy for a long time. And I was thinking about doing a little bit of either small commercial or, or like a four Plex. I see. I see Michael, he's, he's excited about that. So I really need to sit down and kind of finalize that plan. So I might put some time on Michael's calendar and thinking through that.   So having those funds in when they hit the bank account like not, because I'm paying for that, right. But that debt is running, having a very locked in plan in place, they either continue to add a couple more SFR or go multifamily. And I think they're putting a date to that, I think by the mid May, so May 15. Like I have to have a very specific and I keep looking at you know, properties down like different strategies like looking at SFR and looking at commercial stuff. So I guess really locking that down and then executing that. So number one is going to fit Yep, building finalizing that, where I'm going to just tribute the new funds for these, this next round of acquisitions.   And my other goals that I have is just have my second vaccine coming up pretty excited about that. And just starting to reengage with some friends that I haven't seen in a while still, you know, wearing masks and doing doing all the right precautions, but after getting the second vaccine starting to, to re engage with some friends and some more outdoor stuff. So I love being specific about it. So all say having, you know, two events in a row of friends. Yes, that's gonna be my my non my my fun one. So.   Dean: That's very topical. And that's, that's Adam will go on a lot of us are dying to get out there again and re engage with the world like we used to back in the day. Right, Ryan? How about yourself?   Ryan: Yeah. So on a personal note, going back to being a dad on Thursday or sooner, just trying to be as supportive as possible in all of that was my wife. So taking care of the cooking and the cleaning and everything that I can do. Maybe some some midnight shifts, if I'm been tapped for that, but whatever, whatever it takes on that end, and then on the real estate side. So just working on getting this off market deal finding process up and running. So specifically, I want to put two properties under contract either buying holds or flips by we'll call it mid June. So get two properties under contract.   And then also I'm trying to figure out a way to monetize the leads that I don't want to keep. So what I've found is there's a lot of leads coming in that are probably good deals, but I just don't want them and so trying to figure out a way to monetize that without becoming like a wholesaler like very minimal touch way to at least break even on all my marketing spend for deals that I don't want to keep.   Dean: Awesome, you know, your, your your personal goal of cooking and waking up midnight. Now that you've said it in the mastermind group and as soon as Tom writes it down, it's a kind of set in stone. So you know, we're holding you to it, Ryan.   Ryan: Luckily, I'm not a great sleeper like all of you sounds like us some of that time and go do my midnight shift then.   Dean: Alright, excellent. So we set out epic goals. So what we can do so moving forward, once the group have set their epic goals, you typically use that as your kind of baseline that you kind of go against, and all your commitments that you commit to throughout the week should be committing to, you know, essentially a small version or a sprint goal that essentially leads to your epical eventually.   And since we didn't, like I said, do a mastermind group last week, we weren't we weren't talking about last week's commitment. And and hopefully next week, when we meet, we will say we've completed it and get together. All right, I think we're at time, Michael, how are we doing?   Michael: Yeah, we got two minutes left. So again, we did a nice job there.   Dean: Excellent. Okay. On to the deep dive the hot seat, Ryan. So again, this is just a challenge. Or if you don't have a challenge for the week, you're kind of your success or roadmap to success that you can kind of solicit feedback from from the group. So, Ryan, why don't we dive right in?   Ryan: Perfect. So like I mentioned, I'm trying to find off market deals. And I started this about a month and a half ago. And I think part of the issue right now is I'm just a little bit scattered. And so I have a cold caller that's basically cold, calling six hours a day to just find leads. And what I've found is that I'm running through my potential options pretty quickly. So again, I'm investing in Indianapolis. And my criteria is pretty narrow. It's like three bedroom, one and a half bath in certain neighborhoods. And there's only so many phone numbers that you can call. So I'm finding that I'm running through those leads pretty quickly. And I'm not finding the quality of leads that I wanted. And then now I've also started to try out direct mail campaigns as well.   And I think part of my issue is I'm just not quite focused, because I feel like I'm running out of leads in one spot or the other. So I'm just trying multiple things to see what sticks. But nothing, nothing is clicking as easily as I hoped it would or thought it would. And so I'm having a little bit of trouble there just like actually turning leads into appointments and getting the deal closed.   As I sort of mentioned in my epic goal, one of the pieces I'm trying to do is have this direct marketing source be sort of self funding. So if I can figure out a way to, if I get 10 leads, and maybe one or two look good for me, how do I get rid of the other eight without just throwing them away, like passes up someone that wants them, whether it's a relationship based thing, or actually sell them to someone. So I've been experimenting with a couple things on that end, for example, one I found someone local and IndY that can sort of track leads down. I've tested that out with a couple of them. Another one is I'm talking to the wholesaler that I normally use of actually selling him the leads, and then getting a commission on the downstream.   So those are the two approaches I've gone after. But it's just too early to tell right now if either of those will really work. So all of this, I would say I'm like early on in the game, but I don't know how people continue to do this year round and make it work because there's there just doesn't seem to be that many deals out there.   Dean: It's one of those things that inventory, not as Indianapolis I invest as well. So I noticed scarcity there, but just across the US is so scarce right now that people are going to cold calling and skip tracing, do all these other things that they can try and do to try and find some kind of deal out there. And so I can certainly empathize with your situation.   Ryan out of curiosity, what what um, what do you use for your cold calling? What's the I know, we spoke about deal machine, but I don't think it was that. What do you use right now?   Ryan: It's a company called scale and grow. And I think they're brand new, but I actually went to an investor meetup in Indianapolis last November, so and I happen to be sitting at a table with one of the guys who was just trying to kick that off the ground. And so it's very small right now. I think they have five or six school colors in the Philippines and they just sort of rotate those between they'll do the skip tracing for you and, and all that. So that's what I'm using right now. And I'm using prop stream. I mentioned I tried out one direct mailer. I'm using prop stream for that.   Michael: Ryan, I'm curious why your criteria just about your criteria that three, one and a half. Can you get into that a little bit and maybe we can try to figure out if we can't expand that a little expand the scope?   Ryan: Yeah, that's a good question. So honestly, I'm just a sucker for like three, one and a half brick building. So part of it is just personal preference. Like whenever I see those, I always jump on them.I really liked the one a half bathroom, it's more than one and a half bathroom than anything else. And so I feel like overall just attract a little bit better clientele of a renter, if I'm trying to keep that long term. And it's more attractive to sell if I want to flip it. So it's a little bit more the one and a half bathroom than anything else.   One thing I started to look at last week is expanding out to two beds, one and a half baths that are bigger in size. So 1000 square feet, so I can, if that's where you're going try and build a third bedroom on or maybe try to build a second bathroom on. But I almost feel like the building a third bedroom is probably easier than building a second half bath, just because of plumbing and everything else. But that's definitely an option or an opportunity to expand there.   Michael: That's exactly where I was going with that. And for everybody listening or watching, but Ryan's talking about is, is buying something that has enough square footage to add an additional bedroom, maybe it has a formal dining room or just a large living room that you can corner off or build some internal walls without changing the exterior footprints, because that's much easier to do is changing the interior footprint. And then adding a third or fourth or fifth bedroom, whatever size your heart desires. And that can add a tremendous amount of value both on the rental side and on the resale side of things.   So I think that's a really good way to expand the scope, I would not be shocked if your lead list doubled. As a result of that. I don't know what the housing stock looks like specifically in Indianapolis. But I said that weird Indianapolis. Indeed, but I think it could be could add a lot of names to your list.   Ryan: Yeah, just to give you a sense for the size, when I just did the three, one and a half. And I'm also doing over 25% equity. So people that aren't like leveraged up completely and would actually want to sell this at a discount. There was about 8000 people on that list. But given that 8000 people on cold calling, I actually don't even know the stats, I should notice that but a very small percent answer and then a very small percentage of that are willing to actually sell.   And so that's why I'm having trouble, like the 8000 actually run through pretty quickly with direct mail. I'm sure it lasts a little bit longer. But at least on cold calling, I'm running through that list pretty quickly.   Tom; That's a great segue into my comments, do you like so much of this business is like knowing your funnel and like what your conversion rates and like understanding what like baseline should be. Because I mean, you get to that point. And it's sort of just like an equation like, Okay, I know, if I do like, you know, a 10th of 1%, I need to put this many leads in or there's like, I think those metrics are super important to understand in this kind of a strategy, not only for like working backwards on hitting your goals, but also to monitor your partnerships that you're using, especially a newer company that's just kind of getting off the ground, I think it's really important to have kind of know what the industry baselines like of that type of either a cold call or a mailer. And then you can go back to talk to them and kind of see how they're performing against it.   Because I mean, there's so many different chains in the in the flow here, where there could be issues, where it's super important to have kind of a baseline of expectations on industry and kind of working working backwards. From there, I think that's also going to just add a lot of sanity of, of just being data driven about it instead of you know, just looking at the end of the day from the very start to the very end, but looking all those little like sub parts.   Ryan: Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think I definitely need to investigate that. I asked the company themselves, but they didn't give a good answer on baselines, probably because they're new. And they don't do it that much yet. But I think that's a really good point. And another thing I've been trying to do a little bit is sort of a b test, at least with different neighborhoods to say like, Alright, this neighborhood, I'm going to try cold calling this neighborhood, I'm going to try direct mail and see what gives a better response. So kind of testing within the two strategies that way, but I think knowing the industry benchmarks.   Tom: And the different layers of the funnel, right, so like, okay, what's the pickup rate? What's the actual like, talk about rate, you know, you know, I'm saying like getting as granular as you can there. I think that's gonna help identify, you know, where there are issues, issues in the flow, where you, you know, get as granular as possible that we might be my feedback on.   Ryan: Yeah, that's a really good plan.   Dean: And Ryan, what about So you said right now you're, you're limited to kind of your buybox to specific area of India, East nd Have you looked at other regions like this, the South, the east is obviously a lot more affordable and then the South has also kind of one of the places we talked about Greenwood. Southport, I think you have a place there, that you're gonna have some affordability even the West, I know there's some really good neighborhoods that are somewhat affordable still. And have you thought about expanding your your markets or your different neighborhoods?   Ryan: Yeah. So the 1000 I mentioned before is all of Indianapolis, including the west side, one thing I did start doing recently is expanding cells, as we talked about a little bit. So going down to Greenwood, the, the constraint I was working with in there is trying to keep it within the neighborhoods that I know my property manager manages. And so I basically reach out to them, ask them, which neighborhoods they expand to. And I've tried to stay within that just because I didn't really want to go down the headache of finding a new property manager and a new contractor and all that good stuff. So I want to try and keep it within the system. To the extent possible.   Dean: If you did find a place outside of the zone of where your pm works, would you be open to just flipping it and then kind of passing it on for profit moving on?   Ryan: Yeah, yeah, I'm not, I'm not necessarily sold on buying hold as a strategy for all these. It's more just an overall income stream. So I'm more than happy to, to flip, if I see an opportunity that comes up, or even potentially wholesale something, if it, if it works out, I'm trying to keep it sort of my overall goal is to not spend a lot of effort on this sort of keep systematize it as much as possible so I can sort of stay out of it, but just have extra leads coming in to myself as sort of a lead flow more than anything else.   Michael: This might be a bit of a naive question. But as someone who's never worked with cold callers, or hired a company like that, how much of this deal flow conversion rate do you think is a result of the physical person on the other end of that phone? Who's calling the lead?   Ryan: I'm sure it's a lot of it. Because I personally get cold callers, like calling me every day. And some of those almost all of them, I hang up immediately, but like some of them just something about, I mean, are you just like, Alright, well, what would you offer me and like, you just go a little bit further with them. And it's something about the person on the other side. So I think that's probably a big piece of it. And I think that back to Tom's point of like, knowing the industry benchmarks would probably add a lot of value there just to know if like, if this company is coming in at half the rate or if they're actually on par, and it's just a small funnel that you have to work with?   Dean: And what about the other thing, that from a personal experience, like yourself, I have to be hanging up on the cold callers and always get that call interested in selling my property? What about text messaging, you know, that's, that's less, it's a bit more formal, but it's, it's the only messages I've ever responded to on text. And that's definitely I don't like to speak to people, you know, potentially a precious situation of trying to sell my home. But if done via text, it's a bit more informal, that more relaxed, the seller could be the more relaxed by giving out information and being a bit more willing to speak to you.   Ryan: Yeah, I think that that's another good point. I actually have a friend who has sort of a text message business for a different industry. And so I was picking his brain a little bit on like how this might work for real estate, I just, I need to talk to him to see what the options are. I know, there are some legal things recently about texting that kind of made it a little bit tougher than it used to be.   But I definitely need to talk to him and talk to someone about this. I think overall, I should just talk to someone who does direct marketing, because I haven't necessarily done that. Like, I've watched a lot of YouTube videos, and I've read a lot of things about it. But I haven't talked to someone who's actually good at it that can probably like, help me skip over like two or three of the like learning steps that I'm going through and probably wasting money on right now.   Tom: I think that's a great like segue that kind of into like, another piece of advice is like, what, what parts of this do you want to be good at? And which parts do you want to outsource? You know, I think naturally like we're inclined to like to be sort of a jack of all trades and do everything but you know, this could be a good spot for you, right? And you don't want to spend too much time on it. Just find people that are already doing this, that already good at it. If the ultimate goal is deal flow, you know, let somebody else work, you know that you can vet and trust, like manage the sausage factory, where you just kind of be on the other side. Now, sure, you'll probably end up paying a little bit more for this, but I'd say for your time, it's probably worth it.   Ryan: Yeah. 100%. And the the piece that I'm trying to stay out of is like getting on the phone with potential sellers everyday like I have no business being in that I'm not good at it. And I don't want to be good at it. And so I've been trying to find someone that is willing to do sort of that piece of it. But it's just it's hard to find that when you don't have a track record of closing deals yet. You're like, hey, do you want to jump on the phone and talk to a bunch of random people that may or may not sell their house? And then maybe I'll give you a cut of it. So I think figuring out what that piece looks like and finding someone that I trust is definitely a big step in it.   And I've been trying to do that a little bit. I've talked to probably three or four people that are like local Indianapolis investors that are willing to jump on the phone and talk to people. But I think finalizing that piece of it is definitely worthwhile and definitely good plan.   Michael: Is this how wholesalers find their deals?   Ryan: It's basically wholesaling. But I'm trying not to do the work of wholesaling for like, I'm not trying to take it to fruition and actually sell the deal on the other side. Just take the lead and keep it for myself.   Michael: Right. Right. Well, so my guess is that the wholesaler that you buy from locally in India is probably not going to want to chat with you about how they source their deals. What about or do you think that they would? Would that be a good a good source to chat with?   Ryan: Well, so they're definitely not going to give me tips on how to get better at it. But what I think I mentioned this at the beginning, but one of the things I'm doing now is actually passing the lease that I don't want off to them, because I know they'll pretty much buy anything. And so we've actually worked out a deal, where they'll give me a cut on the back end of a deal that I've passed to them, and then they end up selling, which is a very low touch way to hopefully at least break even on this thing. But it's just too early to tell how many of those they're going to close.   Michael: So you're wholesaling to your wholesalers.   Ryan: Yeah, selling leads to my wholesaler. And then potentially buying it from them on the back end of   Michael: Full circle. Yeah, I I've got to imagine that there are wholesalers because I know that they're, you know, professional wholesalers in other markets, maybe on bigger pockets that you could try reaching out to just to see, kind of like Tom, the analogy, Tom uses the sausage factory, what components are they using, and they're a sausage factory, I've got imagine it's relatively homogeneous throughout the country, what that process looks like, I'm sure you're going to tailor it to slightly towards individuals and to different markets. But I think at the high level, just that the deal flow and the lead acquisition process, I would guess is is relatively done. And so trying to rather than trying to reinvent the wheel or build your own wheel, there's there have got to be folks out there that you can get on the phone to chat with.   Ryan: I think 100% I can and I read like a wholesaling book, which kind of got me there. But it's definitely more tailored to like how do you double close and all that kind of stuff? And so I think just the beginning of the process like that lead gen funnel, definitely worth talking to someone. And yes, that is exactly what they're doing. So I think that would probably be a good place to start. Probably someone not in Indianapolis, but I don't think I'm trying to steal their business.   Michael: Poach their deals. Yeah.   Ryan: Yeah, exactly.   Michael: And just people who don't know, Ryan, what's a double close?   Ryan: So the way I understand it on wholesaling, there's sort of two ways you can do it, you can either get the deal under contract and then assign it to someone else and have an assignment fee on there where it's very clear on the transaction that you are making 5k or 10k on this deal, or there's a double close where you technically close on the house, and then you immediately sell it to the end buyer. But you still don't need to bring any money to the table because they're sort of using the funds from the third transaction to from the first transaction. So there's sort of two ways to close on that from a wholesaling perspective.   Michael: Awesome.   Dean: This is a bit I kind of outside the box but I just remember listened to a podcast and I forgotten the name of the gentleman who does the study is quite an ingenious way you always have people flooding you with you know sell your house like speak to me like there's always people soliciting your business in the way do you want to stick out from the crowd right? You don't want to be just another one of the people asking do you want to sell your house and this one guy he used to send mail mail letter with often you know I want to buy your house etc. But he also left like a little Rubik's cube with it. And his tagline was, let's figure this out together. And I thought that was quite brilliant that they stuck out in his head and maybe like it they went into right now but when they are interested they will probably go back to that guy or left to like a weird little puzzle piece with their mail and just kind of makes you stick out from the crowd.   So I wouldn't say necessarily go down that route of mating off Rubik's Cubes or chess pieces but you know something similar can help you in the long term. Stick out from the from the card like that.   Ryan: Yeah, that's a great idea. My wife actually had a similar idea this weekend. She's like what if you just mail everyone cookies? I'm like I don't think we want to mail 8000 cookies to the city of Indianapolis.   Dean: Or candy!   Tom: Carmel, wrapped Carmel get like you know   Ryan: But yeah, no, I think something like that. So you're not just one other mailer and the 10 mailers they got this week is definitely, definitely a good idea.   Tom: I've got a sweet deal for you!   Dean: I know you're probably in Indianapolis. Aren't you heading to Indianapolis soon? Meet the buyer, at some point.   Ryan: Oh, I have an appointment set up. Yeah, but someone else is my product during the appointment.   Dean: Okay, I think the other thing is it's been more manual, but you know, highs, I'm driving for dollars, you know, driving past places where, you know, there's overgrown bushes, or you know, the grass is too long. And you can kind of see it, you know, just people who, you know, aren't picking off the place that may be on the verge of foreclosure, that you could potentially help them alleviate from a sticky situation.   So you could do a very targeted marketing that way as well, just to kind of another option.   Ryan: Yeah, I think there's a bunch of ways to do it. And it's just finding the right figuring out which one works for me. And then just sticking with that.   Michael: Wouldn't that be awesome if the grass front lawn grass link was public record, and you could search that?   Dean: I think it sounds like we have a few action items that you can work with. And then try and utilize to see what might be the best cold calling method or kind of wholesaling to wholesalers type of method that you can utilize for your for your investing.   Ryan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I'm gonna try and talk to a wholesaler gonna try and figure out what some of those industry benchmarks are. And just try to narrow in on some of the details, at least give myself some sanity on whether I'm actually just spinning here. Or if this is just the normal process.   Michael: With the industry benchmarking, I would push that company a little bit more on it, because I've got to imagine the whole reason they got into business in the first place was because they were trying to accomplish some goal, or they saw a niche in the marketplace that they could add value. So there's no way that they don't know what the industry benchmarks are like that just seems pretty naive to start a company and have no idea or not be able to give your clients a pretty straightforward answer of what's reasonable for the for the market.   Ryan: Yeah, that's a good point.   Dean: All right. Well, Ryan, you were speaking about some your your goals or what you plan to do. That segues well into our next topic, which is this coming week's commitment. So we'll kind of go around again in the same order. But working looking at your epic or grand goal, my case, you know, what you're committing to every week should be essentially biting away at the goal that you're trying to achieve eventually. So what you're trying to set for yourself, your commitments should kind of align with those, those epic goals.   So for my, for my commitments, I talked about my epic goals of doing the 401k, Roth IRA conversion and doing a cost seg. And I think, what I want to do next week, well, this coming week is run the numbers to see if cost segregation for my four plex would be worth spending the money to get it done. And so that's what I want to do this week to help achieve that goal.   And the second one is I want to read this is my second goal was to take over management about my portfolio is to read the first 30 pages of the book on managing rental properties. And so I have that collecting dust somewhere around here. And that I want to pick up and read.   The third one. I'm one meditate, set a commitment to meditating at least twice this week. And that's what I plan to do. And in terms of the next pieces is talking about your actionable next steps. So it's great to kind of set these these small goals. But let's go even further like how what do you need to do to achieve that commitment this week?   So like, what's that bite size or your most important next step to achieving that goal, or that commitment for next week. So kind of an auto just went down for my actionable next steps. Michael sent me a contact for a one of his people that helped him with the cost segregation study. And so I'm going to my actionable next step is to reach out to that contact, send them an email and introduce myself and kind of tell them what I'm trying to do the next actionable next step or most important next step about reading my book is to find the book. It's a crucial, crucial step in achieving that goal.   I just moved. Yes, I have boxes and boxes full of stuff I'm going to try find that book. And then my third one about meditating. I'm gonna set an alarm on my phone for two times this week to, to make sure I'm going to be meditating at that at that time so that I can't kind of back up. So that is my next week's commitment and my actionable next steps.   Michael?   Michael: Are you using any kind of assistance for to meditate any kind of app or book or music?   Dean: Yeah, yeah, I, I use an app. Right now. Actually, I download I used headspace last year, I tried to get into it. I wasn't really feeling it as much. So I downloaded Comm. app. It's another one of those very popular apps out there. And I part of my meditation rituals, I kind of set a little candle in front of me and just kind of focus on the breathing and look at the candle kind of zone out.   Tom: Love it and that when   Dean: I will livestream it as I'm meditating defeats the purpose. But anyway. Yeah. All right, Michael, what is your commitment this week?   Michael: So commitment this week is to make additional headway on the redevelopment projects going to push the contractor to make additional progress. And I'll talk about how to do that in my here in a minute. I want to get additional legwork done on the flip as well. And I'll talk about that in just a minute and then going to commit to watching some there's a TED talk or I think some YouTube videos on things you can do when you're having trouble sleeping. So I'm going to be watching some of those this week and trying to implement those.   So what I'm going to be doing stepwise actionable stepwise to get the contractor moving along. This whole time we've been on time and materials, he's been building me time and materials, which is basically how much time his crew spends, and whatever the materials cost. That's what he builds me, I'm gonna be moving to lump sum payments going forward. Because the longer they take, the more money they make, versus now when it's a lump sum, they are now incentivized to finish the project as quickly as possible, because that's when they get paid.   So for this whole time, there was just a lot of unknowns. So they said, Hey, we can't give you a lump sum number, we got to do TNM. So I said, Okay, and now we're past all of the major hurdles, knock on wood. So we should be able to, he should be able to give me a number. And that's really what I need.   Then I'm going to be getting a scope of work for the flip from the project manager out there, who's also the property manager and the agent. And so I said, Okay, I need you to commit to a number. Again, this is if it goes over, you're paying the bill. So I'm not playing these games anymore with these flips. So Ryan, off the chat with you offline about how the best way that you've done that with your burrs is and then yeah, I just watched those TED talks and YouTube videos on on things I can do to implement sleep, better sleep and then utilizing them throughout the week as needed.   Dean: Great. Thanks, Michael. Appreciate you walking us through that. Tom. How about you? What are you committing to this week?   Tom: I was just lastly on sleep. My goal, like I like breaking a sweat can be kind of helpful, like in the evening, like, like, sometimes I'll do like a night run. And I don't know, I find it helps a little bit. I don't know. Anyways.   Michael: Meditation is right.   Tom: Yeah. Meditation is a big is a big part of my spiel.   Michael: You can meditate in the sauna and do both for the price of one.   Tom: Oooh, meditate in the sauna, while running on a treadmill. Just defeat the purpose.   Dean: Yeah, but highly, highly interesting.   Tom: Alright, committing to this week, so I am committing to getting uber organized on my refinances that are going on right now. So like, I'm going to be able to say like exactly what the close date is set for. For those different and you know, they're all occupied units. So it's, you know, making sure that the right appraiser is is in contact is there just a clear date on closing, so getting very organized with my refinancing on knowing that capital is going to hit into the bank.   And the other I think kind of social one, right was like, scheduling a little, you know, safe little friendly outdoor thing with some friends. So I'm gonna get a little text, get set of dates. For my little outdoor, I'm typing my notes as well, outdoor, outdoor Hangout. So the specific actions I'm going to do to fulfill these next commitments is I'm going to call my lender and just walk through every single property and make sure that they have everything and that the, the appraisal has been scheduled.   And then for my actual step for a little social thing is I'm going to get a text thread going with my, my group of people, they're going to do a little, I don't know, either like wine tasting or some random outdoor thing. So get my get a text message thrown. So that'll be my text, spread text thread going with those friends. So, okay, done.   Dean: That's awesome, Tom. Now I have one of those things. And it's it's breaking down those bite sized chunks makes it so much more achievable as whenever you set a goal for yourself, even if it's small, you know, just taking that first step allows one to just be a bit more committed to kind of fulfilling it, you're a lot more likely. What do we say? 37%? More likely, if I'm making a random statistic now to be fulfilling that small goal.   Have you been vaccinated on that you have you gotten your vaccines yet?   Tom: I got my next one coming in the very beginning of May. I will say putting in the, you know, commitments to doing like fun things is pretty fun. I like that.   Dean: It's important as well. I mean, we totally we get sometimes it's not it's not just about work and try to get as much money as possible. It's, it's also about you know, what, you know, what your personal life is, and trying to kind of focus on taking a step back and focus on that as well. So that you feel that way.   Ryan? How about yourself?   Ryan: Yeah. So on my personal goal of becoming a father, I don't think there's really anything I need to do that's actionable to make that happen. Yeah, go to the hospital, pack the bags. On the on the real estate one, I think my goal is to talk to two leads and schedule one appointment in the next week. And then also just understand some of the benchmarks and everything a little bit more. And so I think my actionable steps are, I'm going to network with at least one wholesaler, or someone who's done lead generation through cold calling. So I'm going to just network with one person that's done that.   And then on the benchmark side, Michael, I'm just going to follow up and ask him again and say like, how do you not know this, like you should know this. So reach out to the company directly, as well as figure out, find another way to get industry benchmarks for that. So that I can compare it against something.   Tom: I might have a contact for you on on some industry benchmarks I went to, there was another mastermind I went to last year and actually just reached out randomly about being on the on the podcast. So I've got another contact for you who I'm sure has a pretty good handle on wholesaling benchmarks.   Ryan: That'd be awesome.   Dean: Real time feedback. This is one of the benefits of mastermind groups.   Ryan: That'd be awesome, Tom, thanks.   Dean: All right. So I think my problem better we're ahead of schedule. We're on time, right?   Michael: Yep. Still on time.   Dean: Excellent. So the last, the last thing we like to do is the last minute or two is just to talk about setting the next meeting date and time, I would typically recommend you sticking just to one, like weekly occurrence at at a specific time. Because if everyone's like, oh, let me check my calendar and try and figure it out, then it's not going to get done. We're all busy. And it's the way to getting this done and without fizzling out is setting a specific weekly, date and time every week. And then the other thing we do in this section is speak about who's going to be the next week's rolls. So I typically just kind of rotate it based on the attendee order.   And so we can, we can do that now. And for so for next week. We can commit to the same date and time. And then Ryan barring any kind of hospital occurrence at that time, but for the roles. Let's let's do Michael as the as the moderator, Tom, let's put you in the hot seat. Ryan, you can be the timekeeper. And I'll be the note keeper. Note Taker.   Michael: Perfect. Sounds good.   Dean: That's it. That is how you run a mastermind group session.   Tom: Beautiful.   Ryan: Great.   Dean: And I was just gonna say mastermind like I said it's it kind of resonates personally for me just because this was one thing that really pushed me to be more specific. I literally committed to booking a flight to Dallas, Texas, to check out real estate in that area when I was touring that back in the day and I pulled theTrigger because I had my meeting coming up, and I'm like, Alright, I better commit to this, I'm going to do it. And I booked my ticket and met a couple real estate agents there and did all the stuff. And so that's kind of my first step I took towards real estate investing with mastermind group.   So to me, it kind of resonates Well, it's, it's, I think it's a really important way to, to challenge yourself and to be held accountable to those challenges.   Michael: Absolutely. I think I've never participated in a formal mastermind, I have a couple of accountability buddies that I have calls with standing calls on a weekly basis. And if somebody misses a call, they got to pay the person 10 bucks. And we just talked about what the goals are for the week and what you know whether or not we accomplish them and why we didn't, did or did not accomplish them.   So just to piggyback off your point, the and I think that the localization of what your goals are, I think that there's a lot of science behind that just speaking them to yourself, but then even more, so speaking them to somebody else. Now, I'm not just letting myself down. I'm letting down my accountabilibuddy, who is holding me to an expectation so i think it's it's huge.   Dean: I like that, uh, that the accountabilibuddy, that's a very catchy.   Michael: That's great. It's great. Ryan, I'm curious, just doing like a live quick post mortem. On the session? Was that feedback helpful? Was that were those things that you hadn't thought of? On your own yet?   Ryan: Yeah, um, some of them. So there were things that I hadn't thought of. And then there were other things that I had thought of, but I kind of like wrote off in my mind, I was like, ads, probably not gonna go anywhere. But like hearing you guys say him again. I was like, Okay, I probably should go investigate that. I probably should, like industry benchmarks. I was like, I should know that. But like, whatever. If it's working at the end of the day, it's working, but like just understanding that knowing that, so I think it was really helpful. Yeah.   Dean: Don't forget that Rubik's Cube, you know, fundamental.   Ryan: Yeah. Got your sweet deal.   Dean: That's right. That's right. And one of the important things as well, mastermind groups just being able to people showing up in time, being held accountable to just speak in that time, and then it kind of ending on time as well. I think it's also it's one of the things that's really important. You know, one of the toughest things with mastermind group is just keeping people going and making sure people that doesn't fizzle out and the by kind of cutting the chit chatter a bit or just kind of sticking to the script or the the the template really helps keep people focused and keeps people coming back.   And so yeah, that is a first session. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Appreciate your time.   Michael: Alrighty, everybody, that was our episode, a big thank you to coach Ryan, Tom and Dean, that was a lot a lot of fun. I know I got a lot of value out of it sounds like Ryan did as well. We're going to be hopefully doing these continuously going forward. probably not going to be recording them, but we're still gonna be participating in the mastermind groups. Again, at this summit. You're interested in being a part of come check us out at rootstock. academy.com and we look forward to seeing you in the next one. Happy investing.

There are tons of videos floating around about getting rich quickly with real estate. But let's be real, real estate is a long game. In this episode, we use a model from the Roofstock Academy Playbook to project exactly how long it would take you to get to $100K per year in passive income based on 3 different sets of assumptions. This episode shows how you can set realistic, time-bound goals for your financial freedom.  --- Transcript Tom: Greetings, and welcome to the Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Tom Schneider. And I'm joined today by   Emil: Emil Shour   Michael: and Michael Albaum.   Tom: And today we've got a fun episode. So there's lots of content out there that talks about how to become a millionaire and you know how to become rich with real estate and in today's episode, we're going to go through some specifics year by year to meeting some specific goals. So both Emil, Michael and myself, I guess all three of us are going to come up with some scenarios. And we're going to use this tool from Roofstock Academy to see how long it takes to meet our goals. All right, let's do it.   Emil and Michael, what is going on?   Emil: Hey guys,   Michael: Not too much. I'm just getting ready to take off in my van again, we had some solar issues around the road for a week so we came back to home base to get those squared away. So got brand new solar installed brand new batteries, did some plumbing customisations and ready to rip and roar in the next couple days. So we're stoked.   Tom: Very cool, Emil What's going on?   Emil: You know following Michael really sucks because I'm just a guy living in his home just doing normal boring stuff every week. So Michael I'm just gonna vicariously live through you in your van now everything's good. Nothing crazy going on. Yeah, just happy. It's it's summer the waters warming up. So it's been it's been more fun to go surfing in the morning. Don't have to wear booties, feet don't get cold. So that's been nice.   Tom: Nice. Nice. Nice.   Michael: What about you Tom, how comes the construction on the house and the refinances?   Tom: It's coming. Oh, closing on the refi is on Thursday, which is exciting.   Michael: Awesome.   Emil: Nooice!   Tom: Some ammunition for some acquisitions. But yeah, yeah. And the construction is cruising along, almost done. It's like stop and go, you know, like there's like certain dependencies on certain parts of the project and takes a while to get done. And then a bunch of stuff gets done. And then it kind of goes back to a little bit of a halt. But Fingers crossed, we're moving some things back into the kitchen. over the holiday weekend that is coming up. So fingers crossed.   Awesome, guys. So we got a fun episode. This is also going to be on YouTube,I encourage you to check our YouTube station out, just search Roofstock.   What we have here is we have this tool that was built within Roofstock Academy, it's not an over complicated model that just goes year by year. And what it does is, you take some baseline assumptions of your investment, kind of by box right on what type of returns you're getting, what is the cost, and then you extrapolate that over years. And what the model does is it assumes that you're reinvesting all of the cash flow that you're collecting into your acquisitions into the following year. So that way, you know, when you're buying into year two, you're using the income from year one, when you're into year three, using the income from year 2. The model accounts for a little bit of rental appreciation. What the model does not account for which is a benefit in real life, and perhaps we'll work this into the model at some point is doing 1031 exchanges or cash out refi. So, you know, there is ability to move a little bit faster when you're having some appreciation. Emil, Michael, before we get into the specific examples, go ahead.   Michael: I was gonna say I just wanted to take a moment to pause here and highlight and talk about one of the benefits of real estate that totally took me, I had an aha moment when I realized it. So you just said that the income from year one is going to go into acquisitions from year two. So what that actually means is that you're getting paid every single year for the work that you did previously. So if you have a W two job or self employed, are you going to get paid next year for the work you do this year? Probably not. Real Estate totally doesn't work that way.   So all the work and hard, you know, grit that you're putting in right now is going to pay you year after year after year. And you should actually increase over time. So you get to give yourself raises, hopefully every single year for work that you did today or yesterday, or you're going to do this year. So stop and let that sink in for a minute. It totally blew my mind when it it kind of slapped me upside the head.   Tom: Yeah. And your cost basis is like pretty much effectively flat. I mean, there might be some increases in property taxes.   Alright guys. So before we jump into our specific examples that we're going to come up with, to determine how long it takes to reach our goals. I'd love to hear both you guys just a little bit of input on the model and thoughts, all that good stuff. So Michael, why don't you go ahead and go first?   Michael: Yeah, so I think it's really important to model out and forecast what your portfolio might look like going down the road based on your current day assumptions and goals. And working backwards is so important, I think in real estate because it dictates and helps us to find what makes an ideal investment for you or for me or for for yourself as an individual investor, so the three of us might have very different investing end goals. And so that is then going to determine that we are likely going to be purchasing different types of properties along the way to our end goal.   So this is a tool that allows you to do that. And really reverse engineer Okay, what types of returns should I be targeting? Where should my cash flow assumptions and targets be such so that I can get to my goal at a desired timeframe. And again, putting a goal that's timed bound I think is really important. We talk a lot about in the academy, using the acronym smart, and the T and smart stands for timely or time bound. And so being able to measure that and see how you're doing against your goal, and from a time perspective, I think is really, really critical.   Tom: Love it. Emil?   Emil: Totally agree with what Michael said, I will be blatantly honest, I have actually never gone through this exercise. But I love it. I think it's a good way to kind of just see like, what are you in for right is your goal, let's say I know so many real estate investors who are looking for cash flow, a lot of the goalpost is how do we get to 100k per year basically, like, how does your your passive income, replace your job, take care of all your expenses, things like that.   So it's, it's, I think it's cool to at least have a goalpost and be like, Alright, if I invest this amount per year, it'll take me 12 years. Well, what if I accelerate that? What if I go earn more? What if I am able to save more generate more cash flow? What if instead of a 7% return, what if I can generate a 10% return on all the properties I buy? How does that change all these assumptions? So I've never done this, but I think it is such an insanely valuable exercise to do. I'm hoping that us just doing a right here is gonna give me a much better picture of what my goalpost will look like.     Tom: Awesome.   Michael: Goal posts!   Tom: Alright, so let's jump into it. So I'm going to go ahead and go first. And since I'm going first, I'll define the rules for myself. So my goal in this little game, this little model is to get to $100,000 of passive income, the rules are, in the first five years, I cannot exceed adding an additional $25,000 a year. And practically speaking, that means basically, throughout the year, I can save roughly 25,000 bucks a year to go to, to buying real estate. And in this model, I'm also going to use the cash from my rental from previous year to do and add new acquisitions. What I'm going to do to increase my buying power is in year five, I'm going to increase that to not exceed $50,000 a year. It's it's a bigger jump. But I am just kind of curious to model that out.   So okay, so I'm looking at the sheet right now, which on YouTube, you can see it here. I have my acquisitions that I cannot exceed 25, the first year. So I'm starting with 15 was, you know, let's Yeah, well, let's make it 25. We'll start with 25, just to be consistent with this exercise in year five. So that's five single acquisitions at with a down five of them 25% down of $100,000 for the first five years, first five years. That's one house each year for five years. And that gets me to a cash flow of $15,000. So still quite a bit of way to get there.   Starting in year five, I'm going to increase my cash that I can put in, which is this red number here, up to $50,000. So this example, I'm going to move this up to two, two, by year six. I'm up to 31,000 exceeded it.   Emil: Tom, can you highlight where you're looking at your cash flow yearly number?   Tom: Yep. So my cash flow year not yearly number is down here, which is portfolio levered income. And my new acquisitions for that year is this row, row 22. That's going across. And my acquisition cost is this row 23. But the down payment is this row 24 is this red number and this red numbers is taking off taking out your cash flow from the previous year to be applied to your new acquisitions.   So year five I'm bought now buying two houses a year with a cash flow of 18,000. Let's see in by year seven. But not quite yet. A year seven I thought I could move up to three houses a year or three units. This also could be used for multifamily. But it actually be year eight I can move up to three houses per year and by year 10. I'm at 60,000, just just below 60,000 of passive income at three houses, three houses or three units, and then year 11. That takes me to four.     Emil: So the red Tom, just to clarify, that is the amount out of pocket you're putting. So you're using some cash flow, and then the red amount is how much am I coming out of additional savings from work or whatever to be able to buy the number of additional homes you have there?   Tom: Exactly. And so here we are, based on these constraints in year 14, is where I hit that my magic number of $100,000 of passive income a year based on these assumptions up here. So that's 37 total units. That is a total sum of assets owned a little bit under $4 million. And that would make for $113,000 a year. So those are my assumptions. My I ended up in year 14. So who wants to go next.   Michael: I'll go next.   Emil: Tom, a couple more questions. For you For you take over Michael, couple questions here. What, uh, what is your assumption for a cash flow? Can you fill in our viewers on that one?   Tom: Yep, you got it. So cash flow, you know, there's a lot of cash flow is, is basically you know, what you're walking away of profit at the end of the day after you collect rent and pay all your expenses. And we use just a blanket number for cash flow, a $250 per month, at the end of the day, so you know, there's a lot of variables that are not implicit within the model, like, what the rent is, what the repairs and maintenance are, what the property management costs.   But within this model, what it does is it just, it just comes out on the other side of what that number that a heart that actual number is, it's sort of peanut, peanut butter spreads your portfolio. So if I wanted to be, you know, more conservative, I could take this down to $200 a year. And you know, and that takes for just below a 10% yield of cash on cash, which I feel comfortable in being able to achieve. So yeah, it's just a straight number that you're plugging in at a monthly basis on what that cash flow is going to be.   Emil; Can you go back to 200? I'm curious how the how your model changes, if you do a 10%, just under 10% cash on cash return assumption versus the 12. So it only takes pushes it out a year, an additional year?   Tom: Yeah. Yeah.   Emil: Yep. So I'm just good to see.   Tom: Well, actually, no, I think it pushes it out and might push it up two years. So you're 16. Now is, is that year, so pushes it out two years, by changing that assumption, I think it's better and generally speaking to be more conservative with those assumptions. But what I did there is, since I changed the, these, you know, key assumptions at the top, it changed all the cash flow that runs through each year. So each year, there's less, you know, income. And what when I moved it down, there wasn't enough income from the previous year, or one of the years I had to, I missed an acquisition. And that kind of cascaded down year, year year, which pushed me out, I think, to two additional years to get that $100,000 goal to year 16 here.   Emil: Nice. It's, it's at least interesting to see, like a two and a half percent swing in cash on cash. Like it doesn't have an insanely dramatic change on getting to your 100k mark.   Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, as we said, like this model, like, you know, it doesn't include cash out refinance, it doesn't include, like 1031 exchanges, it also doesn't include the the tax benefits that you're having here. So there's anything it's really helpful and kind of directionally and thinking about acquisitions that you need to make based on some return assumptions on where you want to go. But it is, there are some benefits that this doesn't even necessarily account for.   Michael: Yeah, great point. So Tom, why don't we walk through a scenario where maybe somebody is starting from a stronger position with a bit more capital, and they're actually able to make all cash purchases. So let's just assume that somebody's got a, you know, a very high paying job or is able to start from a really strong capital position, and they're gonna make one purchase a year.   Let's just say one purchase a year, how many years does it take to hit your cash flow goal of $100,000. So if we change this model, we wonder out the first couple of years, and let's just see for $100,000 purchases at a 7.8% return from a cash on cash perspective. How many Here's his take the hit $100,000.   So it looks like in your five, we're almost at 40,000. No, let's actually let's one it out, let's just say if you made one purchase every single year independent of cash flow from the years prior, yeah. How long does it take you…   Tom: On it.   Michael: And so it looks like we crossed the $100,000 threshold that year 13 with 13 properties, which is?   Tom: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. And then the following year, that single purchase is, is being made on its own by the $100,000. That is in place. Yeah. So 13 years,   Michael: 13 years, 13 houses to $100,000 at an average purchase price of 100 grand at an average return of 7.8%. So another way to piece this together.   Tom: That's cool. I yeah, I've never done them this model this this way. And I'm 13 years kind of goes back on a quick I mean that that's that's a tremendous amount to pay each year, you know, in buying an all cash. But..   Emil: Let's do one more scenario then here. Let's do I like Michael's, you have a little bit more cash to work with, right? You have a high paying job, maybe you have a side business, or you have a full time business, whatever you're able to just generate, basically 100k out of pocket every year. But what if instead of you're doing all cash, what if we go back to the 25% down model, but you have more money here? Let's see how quickly we can get there.   Tom: Alright, so I'm going to change this to 250. And the cash down 25, Cash on cash of 12%.   Emil: Let's, let's go 200. Let's go a little more conservative than 12% cash on cash.   Tom: I like it Emil just under 10%. Okay, so how much money do we have each year to spend?   Emil: We have 100k to spend out of pocket.   Tom: Love it.   Michael: Cuz maybe someone right is thinking about selling off some equities because they've done really well in this in this run up market. And now they're wanting to transition it over to real estate.   Tom: Yep. So by year five, you're already at 53,000 in your first three years, or at four houses or units and an extra five, and then it gets to a point where every year you're adding Yeah, we hit it. Or a year six, you can just start adding. Yeah, it's just 7,8,9.     Emil: Yes, you hit it by basically by year 8 you're at 99,914.   Okay, what about what Let's do this again, but you only have 50k. Right? So you're you're in the middle of our first example, and the most recent example, you can put 50k out of pocket. How long will that take?   Tom: So we're in year five we're at? We're still doing two acquisitions per year. I'm gonna give us a little bit of your six an extra 700 bucks. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. So you're eight, you're still at? Let's see, by year 10, you're up to four acquisitions per year. And then your 13. Five.   Emil: At year 12. You could squeeze in another?   Tom: Yeah. Oh, year 12?   Emil: We'll try your 12. Yeah, year 13 year 14?   Tom: That's kind of a magic number and doing this exercise, it's hit your 13 twice now.   Emil: Interesting, Why would it be the same amount of time is your first? Is it because I took a lower cash flow per House of 200 verse 250.   Tom: Possibly, I mean, you're putting a lot less money forward. Right. So like, you're no, it's like in this example. You know, they're both are your 13. But this one, you're only spending $50,000 a year?   Michael: Yeah, I think your total your total   Emil: In yourexample you were doing 25k or less?   Michael: Yeah. So like in the in the all cash model. At this point in time, we had spent 1.3 million in cash to generate $100,000 in income and a meal in this example, you spent 533 533,000. And you're generating $100,000 until I don't remember Tom, what was what was your years must have been less because you're getting a better return.   Tom: Right? Yeah. Michael: So I mean…   Emil: I think it's what I was wondering, why was Tom able to hit the same amount in year 13? I guess it was because that extra 50 bucks, 12% cash on cash versus a 9.6. Right, exactly.   Michael: And so this is like a perfect example of how this model works based on all the different assumptions and inputs. And I think it's so cool that we are finding, you know, fairly similar conclusions based on the different ways to get there.   And so building this out for yourself or, you know, checking out the Roofstock Academy and using this model, exactly. We'll give you an idea of, Okay, how do I get there, what's the most efficient way to get there, and what's going to work for me, because again, depending on where you're starting from and where you're trying to go, You're gonna have a very different path. And then somebody else who's maybe has the same end goal, but starting from a different point.   Tom: Definitely. Yeah, it's, it's, it's flexible. I mean, everyone's path is unique. And it could be a bumper year for whatever reason, you have some extra money. And instead of having that limitation of 20,000, or 10,000, or whatever that number of how much extra cash you put in, perhaps that year, you could have 100,000. And like, if you do that, it plays a major difference of being able to hit that goal, your earlier.   Emil: Plus every year that you're gaining, you're acquiring more properties, you have more deductions, you have more depreciation, you can take meaning more money in your pocket at the end of the year, a couple years ago, the switch finally happened where instead of paying taxes in the year, I started getting refunds because of all the awesome depreciation we were taking. So that also puts more money in your pocket that you can keep steamroll and into acquisitions.   Michael: Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, this model only takes into account the appreciation side of things in terms of value. And then also the cash flow side of things. When in reality, real estate generates wealth in four different capacities. One is the cash flow. One is the appreciation. The other is via loan pay down or leverage because you're actually buying equity every single month in the property, or rather, your tenants are buying equity in the property every single month.   And the last is tax benefits. And tax benefits are just really squirrely to nail down because based on what tax bracket you're in, and where you live, and how much income you earned versus Active Passive mean, all these things can change how the tax benefits are going to likely help your tax situation.   So definitely check with a tax professional about looking to nail that number down to get an idea of how they might help you as an individual. But also keep in mind that Hey there, the return goes beyond the cash flow and the expected appreciation. There are all these other things that to add on and incorporate into that return as you're calculating it. So you're in you know, 9.6% cash on cash is likely going to be a whole lot better when you factor in those other those other factors. Factor those other factors. Don't use the word in the definition. But then also, I think this is a great depiction of real estate is not a get rich quick scheme.   Tom: Sorry, guys, I need to step out for a minute.   Michael; Yeah. Real estate is not a get rich quick scheme. It's not an overnight success scheme. This is a 13 year plan to generating $100,000 in passive income. And so a lot of people might be hearing that or seeing this and thinking all 13 years, that's way too long. But do you have a 13 year plan? Do you have a plan that'll make you $100,000 passively in sooner than that? If so awesome, like run with that. But also make sure that it's a legitimate plan.   I think real estate is one of those things, it's a slow burn. And then as you go further and further down in time, you see those returns start to take off semi exponentially. And so just be thinking about that and be long term greedy like Tom always says,   Emil: That's right. Get Rich, slow!   Michael: Get Rich, slow!   Thanks, everybody for listening for watching. If you're on YouTube, hope this was helpful. Again, this is available at the RooFstock Academy. For those members that are enrolling, come check us out at Roofstock Academy comm if that's not a good fit for you, definitely I'd recommend either looking up a model that exists or making your own model because again, these are really really powerful tools to help you forecast and reverse engineer what type of properties you need to be purchasing or looking to purchase. So with that, let's get out of here. And we look forward to seeing you on the next one. Happy investing.   Emil: Happy investing

Today we celebrate an American woman who loved plants, wrote memorable verses that have stood the test of time, and became the Godmother of Thanksgiving.   We'll also learn about a modern writer and Pulitzer Prize winner who writes in a garden shed. We hear a memorable excerpt about killing slugs. We Grow That Garden Library™ with an inspiring book about marvelous plant combinations. And then we’ll wrap things up with a fun story about a gardener remembered in a rock and roll hit from 1968.   Subscribe Apple | Google | Spotify | Stitcher | iHeart To listen to the show while you're at home, just ask Alexa or Google to “Play the latest episode of The Daily Gardener Podcast.” And she will. It's just that easy.   The Daily Gardener Friday Newsletter Sign up for the FREE Friday Newsletter featuring: A personal update from me Garden-related items for your calendar The Grow That Garden Library™ featured books for the week Gardener gift ideas Garden-inspired recipes Exclusive updates regarding the show Plus, each week, one lucky subscriber wins a book from the Grow That Garden Library™ bookshelf.   Gardener Greetings Send your garden pics, stories, birthday wishes, and so forth to Jennifer@theDailyGardener.org   Curated News Best Mosquito Repellent Mason Jar Hack With Essential Oils | Our Crafty Mom | Michelle   Facebook Group If you'd like to check out my curated news articles and original blog posts for yourself, you're in luck. I share all of it with the Listener Community in the Free Facebook Group - The Daily Gardener Community. So, there’s no need to take notes or search for links. The next time you're on Facebook, search for Daily Gardener Community, where you’d search for a friend... and request to join. I'd love to meet you in the group.   Important Events May 24, 1830 On this day, Mary Had A Little Lamb by Sarah Josepha Hale is published by the Boston firm Marsh, Capen & Lyon. Born in New Hampshire in 1788, Sarah was homeschooled, and she attributed all of her learning and success to her mother. She wrote, ”I owe my early predilection for literary pursuits to the teaching and example of my mother.  She had enjoyed uncommon advantages of education for a female of her times – possessed a mind clear as rock-water, and a most happy talent of communicating knowledge.” In 1848, Sarah married David Hale. He encouraged Sarah’s intellectual endeavors, and together, they enjoyed reading and study. Their idyllic life together was cut short when David died of a stroke after nine short years of marriage. Sarah gave birth to their fifth child two weeks after David died. Sarah began writing to support herself and her five children, all under the age of seven. In 1835, Sarah wrote Spring flowers, or the Poetical Bouquet: Easy, Pleasing and Moral Rhymes and Pieces of Poetry for Children. In the book, Sarah wrote of Mary and her little pet bird, Dicky. “In that gilded cage, hung with Chickweed and May, Like a beautiful palace and garden so gay. Perhaps you're not happy, perhaps you're not well: I wish you could speak, that your griefs you might tell;  It vexes me quite thus to see you in sorrow; Good bye; and I hope you'll be better tomorrow." In 1856, Sarah wrote another book that focused on flowers, and it was called Flora’s Interpreter or “The American Book of Flowers and Sentiments." This gift book featured poetry and flowers to raise American national sentiment. She opened the book with this epigraph: “A flower I love! Not for itself, but that its name is linked  With names I love. – A talisman of hope  and memory.”  By this point in her career, Sarah had established herself as a writer and editor and the Godmother of Thanksgiving. For twenty years, between 1847 and 1867, Sarah fought to make Thanksgiving a National Holiday, and she wanted a certain day for the celebration, writing, “The last Thursday in November has these advantages -- harvests of all kinds are gathered in -- summer travelers have returned to their homes -- the diseases that, during summer and early autumn, often afflict some portions of our country, have ceased, and all are prepared to enjoy a day of Thanksgiving.” But Sarah’s fight would not end until 62 years after her death when Franklin Delano Roosevelt made Thanksgiving Day official in 1941. In the year before her death at the age of 91, Sarah poignantly wrote about her death in her last column: Growing old! growing old! Do they say it of me? Do they hint my fine fancies are faded and fled? That my garden of life, like the winter-swept tree, Is frozen and dying, or fallen and dead? Is the heart growing old, when each beautiful thing, Like a landscape at eve, looks more tenderly bright, And love sweeter seems, as the bird's wandering wing Draws nearer her nest at the coming of night?   May 24, 1963 Today is the birthday of the American novelist and short-story writer Michael Chabon (“SHAY-bon”). In 2000, Michael wrote The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay, which won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 2001. Michael is married to the writer, Ayelet (“eye-YEll-it’”) Waldman, and together they have four children. They also have a writing studio - a little shingled shed in the garden in their backyard - a place that writers like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Roald Dahl, George Bernard Shaw, Mark Twain, and Virginia Woolf all used and enjoyed. Michelle Slatella wrote about Chabon’s writing shed for Gardenista back in 2014. She wrote, “After it was renovated by Berkeley design-build firm Friedman Brueggemeyer, the studio became Chabon’s exclusive retreat and the subject of his 2001 essay “A Fortress of One’s Own” in This Old House magazine. [Ayelet said,] “We moved to that house when I had just started writing, and I hadn’t sold anything yet, so I didn’t think I deserved an office.”  [Michael countered] “Then I had terrible repetitive stress injuries, and arthritis in my pinky finger, so I got an office out of the house, but that was super lonesome.”So Michael said [to his wife],“Let’s share.” “The studio has two separate but open work bays — [Ayelet’s] desk sits beneath a bulletin board she covered with color-coded notecards while… [Michael] writes in an Eames Lounge and Ottoman (he rocks when he works). “First, he had a desk, but then he moved over to the Eames chair, and that invalid swing arm laptop table he has now,” says [Ayelet]. “It’s exactly like a dentist’s setup. He battles carpel tunnel syndrome, and this setup works for now.”   In his book Summerland, Michael wrote, “Can you imagine an infinite tree? ...A tree whose roots snake down all the way to the bottomest bottom of everything? ...if you've ever looked at a tree you've seen how its trunk divides into boughs, which divide yet again to branches, which divide into twigs, which divide again into twiglings. The whole mess splaying out in all directions, jutting and twisting and zigzagging. At the tips of the tips you might have a million tiny green shoots, scattered like the sparks of an exploding skyrocket.”   Unearthed Words Hear him now as he toils. He has a long garden implement in his hand, and he is sending up the death rate in slug circles with a devastating rapidity. “Ta-ra-ra boom-de-ay.... Ta-ra-ra BOOM—"  And the boom is a death-knell. As it rings softly out on the pleasant spring air, another stout slug has made the Great Change. ― P.G. Wodehouse, an English author and one of the most widely read humorists of the 20th century, A Damsel in Distress   Grow That Garden Library Plant Combinations for an Abundant Garden by David Squire, Alan Bridgewater, and Gill Bridgewater This book came out in 2019, and the subtitle is Design and Grow a Fabulous Flower and Vegetable Garden (Creative Homeowner) Practical Advice, Step-by-Step Instructions, and a Comprehensive Plant Directory. This book features over 300 photographs, illustrations, and it's super easy to use. It shows how to create a productive garden by offering step-by-step instructions and pragmatic expert advice. This book covers everything from starting a plot and selecting plants to maximizing space and building raised, and the plant directory is comprehensive. It provides information on summer flowering, annuals, herbaceous perennials, small trees and shrubs, climbers, water plants, and then your edibles, your herbs, fruits. Then, in addition to the fantastic directory, there are also great instructions about modern-day topics, like how to build up layers of soil with mushroom compost, how to fight weeds by covering them with mulch, and how to protect your plants with nets. This book is 240 pages of a gardening master class that's packed with tips and tools for all gardeners - whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro. It offers way more than just the suggested combinations for flowers. You can get a copy of Plant Combinations for an Abundant Garden by David Squire, Alan Bridgewater, and Gill Bridgewater and support the show using the Amazon Link in today's Show Notes for around $10   Today’s Botanic Spark Reviving the little botanic spark in your heart May 24, 1968 It was on this day that the Rolling Stones released their new song Jumpin Jack Flash. Keith Richards said that he and Mick Jagger wrote it after staying at his house. One morning they were awakened by Keith's gardener, Jack Dyer. Jagger asked, “What’s that noise?”  And Richards replied, "That's jumpin' Jack."   Thanks for listening to The Daily Gardener. And remember: "For a happy, healthy life, garden every day."

I've got an outstanding guest for you this week. His name is Michael Versteeg and he just won the inaugural Cocodona 250! He's been in the sport for a while and you may or may not have heard his name. He is a standout figure in the Arizona trail running world and I'm so happy to have him on the show. To tell you the truth, we had to record the show twice for you guys. We recorded it once and about 20 minutes into the show the sound quality started sounding really awful. I didn't know if I should say something and stop the interview or if I should just let it go and try and salvage it. He was making time for me and recording from his van and I felt horrible about it. When I mentioned it to him after the recording, he said “Let's do it again”. I felt bad he had to do the whole interview over but much to my pleasure, I ended up getting to know him a little bit better. Selfishly, I enjoyed talking to him over a couple of different evenings because I really like the guy. Our second conversation was completely different than the first one and I think we were both happier with the second version. The first interview was great but it was just the sound quality that sucked. He was gracious enough to give me some more time and I think we nailed it the second time around. So Michael, thank you buddy. I owe you. Sponsors: athleticbrewing.com PROMO CODE is MCROBERTSA20 onpacewellness.com Mention this podcast for a 10% discount xoskin.us PROMO CODE is BTC Original Music by @the.pro.guey Find us at big-things-crewing.com Life is short, DO BIG THINGS! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/big-things-crewing/support

With home prices soaring and competition through the roof, it's important as an investor to know how to be competitive without compromising your returns. In this episode, we discuss different strategies to consider to make sure you're not left high and dry from an emotionally driven deal. --- Transcript Emil: Hey everyone, welcome back for another episode of the remote real estate investor. My name is Emil Shour and my co host today are,   Tom: Tom Schneider   Michael: and Michael album. And today's episode, we're gonna be tackling something that's a little relevant to the time. So as everyone knows, very hot real estate market, not a lot of supply a lot of demand. So we're gonna tackle the question, how do you make competitive offer in today's environment without overpaying? So let's hop into this episode.   Alright, guys, this is a very timely topic. As I mentioned earlier, very hot market out there not a lot of supply. A lot of demand a lot of owner occupant demand, right people very interested in home. So if you're an investor looking to buy a single family home, probably pretty tough out there right now. So Michael, I wanted to kick this one off to you first, just because I'm sure in in Roofstock Academy you get this question a lot from new investors, seasoned investors. So I'm curious what your you're telling people what the message your your relay is?   Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Is I First off, I just have to say I love the wording you use. It sounds very coach, like at a sports event? So my answer is like, you got to have high and low and you go out there. It's tough out there. But you got it. Yeah, score barkos. So I think it's really apt. It's really apt question and definitely really timely. So what I always tell people is, look, the numbers need to drive the decision making above anything else. So if you can afford to pay 5000 over ask 10,000 over ask or ask or 10,000 under ask. I mean, that's just the numbers. That's the math.   So you need to do your analysis really thoroughly and be very confident in your numbers both on the income and the expense side, which is then going to dictate Okay, what kind of returns should you be anticipating based on these different purchase prices. And so we've actually got a really great tool in the academy, the property analysis tool, and you can do a goal seek in Excel, which will basically tell you, Hey, this is the maximum offer price you can have, or that you can offer in order to hit your goals, whether that be cash flow, or cash on cash or cap rate. And so like Pinocchio says, always let your conscious be your guide.   Tom: But that's not a good mentor He's got a, you know, a checkered history. So think of someone else Michael   Michael: Depending on his nose length is gonna determine how how good of a mentor he should be, always let your numbers be your guide. And the other thing too is if you're buying with a loan, there's going to be an appraisal done. And so the lender is also kind of going to be your backstop in that sense. And they're going to look to other properties and say, Well, this isn't worth that much. So we're not going to lend on this much. So you've got a little bit of leverage. But the thing to keep in mind is that a lot of people are overpaying for properties they're paying over ask they're paying above and beyond what the appraisal comes in at. So it is just very competitive. So I'd say first and foremost, let your numbers be your decision making beat up pointed out spear. Tom, what are your thoughts there?   Tom: I think that's great. You know, it's funny, we have the outline of this episode. And sometimes I'll I'll sort of quickly run the episode and how I expected to go out like our talking points, just kind of knowing each other and I think you stole mine in this episode.   Michael: You were going to use my reference to Pinocchio?   Tom: Well, no, I didn't know we're just talking about this is the magic bullet for like making competitive offers it is knowing what your maximum bid is. And in a really tight environment, like volume could be could be part of it is just evaluating more properties. If you're in a less competitive environment, it's going to take less offers, I think to get stuff into contract, but you know, being data driven and knowing what that maximum amount you want to pay, having that in going forward in making your offers.   And like I said, in this type of environment, I think it's it could be a little bit more of a volume play of just evaluating more properties to get there. Now in the episode of my head, Michael, you have this really beautiful narrative around do what you got to do to make your competitive your offer like a little bit more unique, you know, if you can do things around, I don't know, like contingencies or get to know the seller, you know, and see what makes it worth it. That's what I heard in my head of the Michael version of Michael in my head going on,   Michael: You must be looking at my screen then cuz I've got notes on on that that was gonna be the spirit handle.   Tom: Okay, Okay, got it. Alright, so it sounds like we're getting back on track. The feedback is, you know, within this environment, it could be easy to get caught up and wanting to win win win when you need to win at getting the returns that you want. So you know, making sure you know exactly what that maximum bid is to get and using that and not going beyond it and then oftentimes doing a little bit more volume.   Excellent. So within the article that peer mentioned, he talked about, you know, waiving all your contingencies going over Emil, why don't you speak a little bit to some of those strategies from that from that article?   Emil: Yeah, so like Pierre mentioned, if you've read anything about this crazy market, people are going way over ask, they are removing all contingencies, because, you know, they really want to get a house. And I'd say the warning there is remember, these are probably owner occupants, these are people who want to live at that property, they are driven by emotion. And you as an investor should be driven by numbers and returns and things like that. And so just like Michael and Tom mentioned, let the numbers dictate what you do.   I would never personally drop all my contingencies for an investment property, especially if I'm buying remotely like there's, there's no way I'm going to do that. And again, just remember, these are owner occupants, these are people who are driven by emotion, who want to live there and doing all these things. So don't assume because you're not willing to do that, that there's something wrong with what you're doing. It's just a different type of person and buyer that's, that's doing those things. You guys agree, disagree?   Michael: I have to say, before we move on, I just want to ask you, for all of our listeners that might not be familiar with what contingencies are, can you just give us a high level overview of what a contingency is, and what the typical ones you might see in an offer or a deal are?   Emil: Yeah, contingencies are things that and you guys, correct me if I'm saying this incorrectly, it's things that protect you as the buyer. And so typically, you have an inspection contingency, a financing contingency, if you're getting a bank loan, that allow you to back out of the offer, if certain things aren't met. So your inspection contingency says, you know, it's, let's call it 15 days out from when you enter escrow, that allows you to do your inspections, and address those things with the seller. And you can back out of the deal if you're unsatisfied with certain conditional things, or things that the seller isn't willing to agree to. So protects you as the buyer. Same thing with financing, let's say you go out bank won't give you financing. It allows that's your financing contingency, it's in place allows you to back out of the deal as well, that right guys?   Michael: That's perfect.   Tom: Yeah. Instead, by backing out of the deal that allows you to get your earnest money deposit back.   Michael: Yep,   Emil: Yeah, you can still back out of your deal. Even if your inspection, contingency and financing contingencies have been removed, you're just not going to get your deposit back.     Michael: And with those contingencies, too, I mean, there are other things that you can put in place, and you can put into a deal into a contract or an offer whatever kind of contingency you want. So it tends to weaken the offer, the more contingencies, the less strong the offer is compared to other offers, which is why people are removing their contingencies to make their offer stand out.   So I was in contract on a commercial property up in Alaska, actually, way back when, and we did not remove all of our contingencies, we still had them in place. But we were not able to get insurance on the property. We wanted earthquake insurance, and there was nobody that would write that for us. And so we had to walk away from the deal, because we couldn't insure it, and we couldn't get our earnest money deposit back, because that wasn't one of the contingencies. That's not part of those two. So I said, well, that's interesting one, so keep that in your back pocket, if you're going to be purchasing any kind of unique property, maybe think about putting an insurability contingency as part of your offer.   Tom: Yeah, I think that article is totally about owner more relevant to owner occupied, like, I get it, like, you know, you have a pregnant wife and a dog and you're living in a studio apartment. And yeah, sometimes it makes sense to pay a little bit over to make that work.   Michael: So something to think about, too. For all of our listeners. I'm curious to get your guys's thoughts on this. But if somebody as an investor is targeting tentative occupied properties that already have a lease in place, do you think there's going to be this same kind of hunger feeding frenzy to buy those properties by owner occupants? Because if there's a lease in place, they can't just kick the tenants out? And so I would imagine that the vacant properties are the ones that are seeing more of this feeding frenzy type of thing. What are your guys's thoughts on that about potentially targeting occupied properties, tenant occupied properties for investors?   Emil: I think it's probably not as crazy but still feels crazy right now. I think just interest rates are so low and prices are appreciating everywhere that there is a lot of single family rental demand. So people who are investors looking to make a single family home a rental property. So you know, I think we see it on the roof stock marketplace, a lot of healthy demand out there still, but I don't think you see the craziness of multiple cash offers going over asking and you know, like dozens of offers. I don't think it's that crazy.   Michael: Tom, I'm curious, would you ever buy a property and waive all of your contingencies?   Tom: So with some properties, there is recent inspections completed by third party inspectors so like with roof stock certified properties, you know, there are not a lot of contingencies on those, there isn't an appraisal contingency. But you know, if they recently did an inspection, it wouldn't include that. I guess that to answer the question directly, I probably wouldn't like there is at least an appraisal contingency where I couldn't get that end back. So no, I would, I wouldn't waive all contingencies. But never say never.   Michael: Never say never. But so let's dig deeper into this. So you have a recent inspection. And let's say you're going to pay all cash for the deal, because it's at a price point where you can afford to do that and you want to be competitive. Would you keep your appraisal contingency in place? Even with an all cash offer?   Tom: Oh, probably not. I feel pretty confident in coming up with comps on my own. Like, I would say I've never really outside of like 15% of what an appraiser thinks it is. And I'm often like a much more stringent, more very conservative on like, when I'm evaluating properties on the like, what the value is, I'm not putting on the pink glasses, the rosy sunglasses pink, something like that. Anyways, so I would be fine. I wouldn't be totally fine giving away the the appraisal contingency if that would make my offer more competitive of giving away that type of a contingency. But I mean, if there was any, like, you know, structural smoke any of that kind of stuff. Like I want to hang on to that. Yeah, but the appraisal one would be a reasonable one that would feel comfortable punting on just in my ability to do that. Get the appraisal my own.   Michael: Awesome.   Tom: Yeah.   Michael: So now I'm curious, if let's say let's walk through a scenario, the inspection looks good. But you have an appraisal contingency in place, and the appraisal comes back. And it's 10,000 less than the price that you have the property under contract for, let's say, the $100,000 property, you got an contract for 100 appraiser comes back says it's only worth 90. So the bank's only gonna lend on 80% of 90 grand and it's a hot market. So if you don't pay that $100,000 price, the deal is going to go away because somebody else is going to come swoop in and pay all cash behind you for 100 grand, what are you going to do?   Tom: There is some wiggle room on the value even if it does like appraise poorly like i would i would be okay coming out of pocket. Like if I feel comfortable on like what I think the value should be even though like the process, the appraiser may come up with something a little bit different. It's just such a subjective game sometimes like on the appraisal art. So like I would still move forward as long as I had, you know, the right kind of reserves to make up the difference on like, what appraisal came out.   I got a different angle on making your offers more competitive to the heart of this conversation. This isn't relevant, you know, within Roofstock, because there's a set end amount, but what do you guys think of putting down like massive earnest money deposit amounts, I'd love to hear you guys riff on that.   Michael: I love it. I think it's a really good play, especially because it is 95% of the time protected and refundable. So if you can structure your deal properly, I think it just shows that you're super serious about the deal, and willing to put your money where your mouth is. So I'm a big fan, I get turned off when I get offers on properties that I'm selling with really small emds because I'm asking myself, Well, what are they concerned about? What do they know something that I don't? are they planning on this deal? Not happening?   Tom: You scared?   Michael: Yeah, you scared, bro? Scared, your end goes towards the purchase price. So it's not again, it's fully refundable, if all the contingencies are not met. So I'm a big fan. Emil?   Emil: Yeah, like it, I've never done it. But I think in a market like this, where you're trying to do anything you can to make your offer more competitive, why not? Especially if you're not waiving your contingencies. Now those contingencies in place for a reason, why not make your offer a little bit stronger with, you know, doubling or potentially even tripling your earnest money to make it stand out.   Tom: Random, emd related, quick story. So I, I have my broker's license in California, but I've like rarely ever used it, I only use it to buy the house that I'm living in today. And I've like I've made some offers on other houses. And it like show that I didn't you know, wasn't like a super active agent, because that's when I was putting my emd offer down. Like it was like not best practice at all it like stood out.   Like I'm used to the standard, whatever, either like 15 $100 or whatever. And when I'm putting an offer like on this more expensive house for like an owner occupied house, my end was such a small percentage of the purchase price where they're like usually expecting it and I found this out talking to the agent after is like, yeah, you look like a moron with your EDM out there. So like there's some best practices with EMD. And, you know, showing you mean business is like could mean perhaps even putting up to like 50%, you know, or some very large amount but me being a moron, not at being an active agent all the time when I was like submitting offers on behalf of myself buying houses, I put like, you know, it was like half a percent where it should have been like three or 5% something's in there like so, you know, in thinking about your offer, that that end amount is a really important lever to show intent and putting it on the table.   Michael: That's such a great point. It's something it's a question I asked all the agents I work with when we're writing offers is you know, they say, hey, how much do you want to put for end I'll say what's customary for this market? Because it really does range and varied, you could have a set dollar amount that's customary, you could have a percentage of the purchase price that's customary. So, Tom, that's a really great point to bring up and just have that open conversation with your agent so that you don't look like a moron. Yeah,   Emil: Tom, you just brought up an excellent point that I'd never really thought of, if you're buying your personal residence in California, maybe it makes a lot of sense to go get your your license, because I feel like you can make your offer so much more competitive. If you're like, Hey, I'm representing myself, you as a seller, you're saving 3% you know, get a little bit more of a deal when you go by your by your home, or not just random aside.   Michael: It's like a 6%, swing, right, you'll, you'll save the seller 3%. And then you'll make 3% as the buyer, so you can put that towards your down payment. Depending on the purchase price of the home, it could be this could be big dollars, for sure.   Emil: Interesting.   Tom: EMD. The other lever in the offer, you know, competitive offers his timing, right? Like how quickly you're you're going to close, I'd love to hear you guys riff on, you know, ways that you've used that part of the offer letter to your advantage.   Michael: I've in the past just offered a quick close three week close with a short, you know, shorter inspection contingency period, I'm never willing to waive the inspection contingency if there's not one existing. So I'm not comfortable with someone just walking through the house and saying, Oh, yeah, this is that I mean, I want a professional walking through it. Because nine times out of 10. For that cost of the inspection, I'm able to negotiate the purchase price down more so than that, so that's money well spent.   So I can offer a quick close, I can offer cash clothes a lot of the time. And so that's very attractive to sellers. I know being a seller that's very attractive. I'm in contract right now, to sell a property where someone today we can close in 30 days all cash 15 day inspection contingency period. So it's attractive to sellers, because they want to get the deal sold, they're not in the business of holding on to properties if they're trying to sell them, otherwise, they wouldn't be selling them.   So yeah, I'm just thinking about this too. Like sometimes if you don't have a motivated seller, like myself, for instance, I'm not a highly motivated seller, because the property cash flows, so I just have a better use for the cash elsewhere. So if I can't get the purchase price I'm looking for I'm just gonna hold on to the property. When you find sellers like that, it's tough to really drive your numbers and your price. So just kind of look to understand why the seller is selling, if you can, if you can get some insights into what's driving them to sell what their motivation is, you can then structure your offer to play to their strengths, so to speak.   Emil: Yeah, I've never done cash. But on financing, I'll always ask the bank, what's the quickest we can close so that it helps us write that into the offer, right? You know, instead of having to write 45 day, we can say 30 day, if the bank can close in 30 days, so definitely something to add in there. Just talk to your bank, ask them what the quickest close time is and write down your offer.   Tom: Another lever that I learned about during a recent episode that we recorded was about creating like a resume, like an investor resume. And you know, it sounds kind of silly in like, oh, creating a document about yourself as an investor or your LLC, or whatever, in the deals that you've done. And like performance of like closing quick. And basically like a, it's almost like, you know, when you're owner occupied, submitting a letter, you know, say, Oh, I want to move in with my dog and my baby. And all that kind of stuff. Like this is basically the version of saying, you know, I've closed, you know, 20 transactions, I close on time, blah, blah, blah, here are some references. It sounds kind of cheese ball. But like in a competitive market like this, like I think there's some value to be had in putting together organizing that type of a document.   Michael: I think that's hugely impactful, Tom, and something I didn't realize was going on was the agent that I used to work with out in the Midwest, he was kind of doing this on my behalf anyhow, without my knowledge. So he would approach other agents when we make our offers and say, Look, this is my buyer. He's done, you know, six deals in this market. This is the purchase price, this is the closing this, you know, this were the details of the transaction.   And so I was taken much more seriously than someone who is brand new to the market or someone who is a brand new investor. And so I've actually had and this is not me, tooting my own horn. This is not meant to be a humble brag, but I've had agents reach out to me, because they know of the deals that I've done in the area and have brought me deals. So these are selling agents coming to me saying, Hey, I know that you're serious buyer, you can close. This is a property that my client wants to sell Would you be interested in.   And this is usually off market type of stuff. So I'm like, holy crap, like your reputation precedes you both good and bad. So you know, and people talk in the industry. So make sure you've got a good reputation and absolutely highlight your wins, highlight your successes, show people that you are serious and that you are capable as an investor. It's massively impactful.   Emil: You know, does?   Michael: Who?   Emil: My good friend Michael Zuber baby. He invests in Fresno, he has a fantastic resume, write anything he would enter in contract. I think he closed like 99.9 like some insane number. And so he wrote this resume, number of deals he's done, what percentage he's close all these like awesome facts about himself references like you guys mentioned, and he says he believes that that has helped him a lot. And so I got bought a lot of property, and he does it. So I would imagine pretty solid tip.   Michael: And for anybody that thinks it's cheesy or kind of silly, just put yourself in the cellar seat and flip the roles a little bit. If you're selling a property and you're getting you have 10 offers, nine of them are a name and a number that they want to buy the property for an attempt one is a name, a number and a list of other deals that they've done in the area of purchase prices close on time transaction percentages are probably gone with that person, you know, 95% of the time, as long as there's not a huge Delta in price point.   Because to be honest, everybody else has kind of taken a gamble with a lot of deals fall out of contract. And when they do, you've got to start back from square one. And if you come crawling back to a buyer, the second or third or fourth down the list, they might get wind of that and say you know what, you're coming to me now. Now the balls in my court, the price isn't the same. Now we're I'm gonna make you pay for that. So look to do the deal when you're selling property and get it done with the most likely candidate who's going to close, which is why sellers like all cash, because there is no bank to muddle up the deal.   Emil: It is a little cheesy, but you stand out as a professional in a sea of anonymous, you know, contracts being submitted. So it's probably not as relevant if this is your first or second property. You don't have that resume or track record. But I'm sure there's something you can think of that. I think it just it makes you look like a more professional real estate investor. So I think anything you can do to create some type of resume, I think it's solid.   Tom: I like it guys. So we got a couple of things here we got knowing exactly what that max bid is and coming against your offer, you know, put it crafting your offer with that in mind. Probably volumes going to get to be an aspect of evaluating more properties when it's really competitive, raising the EMD tightening the offer, the closing timing, and then also some collateral about yourself as being a performer, right and sharing that seller agent and whoever will listen to you talk about that.   Michael: Yeah, love it. All really great, actionable takeaways.   Tom: Awesome, guys.Any other final thoughts on the episode submitting competitive offers?   Michael: The last thing I would say is your ego is not your amigo. And so oftentimes we'll see a property, let's say is listed at 70,000. And you've got to go pay 80 grand to get it done. Well, you're thinking yourself, man, I'm paying 10,000 over ask, this might be a crap deal. But if we just raised the list price to 90k, and you got it for 80 you'd be thinking oh my god, this is an amazing deal. Everything else being the same. So don't let purchase price influenced your decision making or opinion of the deal. Again, look to the numbers.   Emil: And along those lines. Don't let your emotions get the best of you. I say this you know if you're if you're watching on YouTube, I'm saying this with a smile because I have let my emotions get the best of me. You know, it's hard. It's hard when you've lost five to 10 consecutive offers to not let your emotions get the best of you. But please learn from my mistake. Don't let your emotions get the best of you stick to the numbers. Be patient. It's more about getting the right deal than just getting a deal under your belt. So that's my final tip.   Tom: How about this Emil, Don't get lost in the ocean of emotion.   Emil: You guys with your Amiga when I go and ocean emotion you guys are rhyming bars today.   Michael: Yeah, yeah, keep up. We're rhyming, we're right on.   Tom: And I'll close this out with sometimes your best deal is the one that you didn't do. You know, the by not needing to win, being patient. being strategic. I think, you know, I definitely believe in a bias for action. But it's super important to be disciplined in setting that number and not going beyond it. So that will be my final, final input.   Michael: My final final final…   Emil: No, no, you're done, Dude.   Michael: Crap. We were chatting about it the other day, the person who wins the negotiation is the one who cares the least. So if you're able to walk away like Tom mentioned, you stand to gain the most.   Emil: Solid. Alright, and any other cheesy one liners or   Michael: There's no crying in baseball.   Emil: It takes two to tango.   Tom: Yeah.   Emil: Thanks, everybody. Hope you enjoyed this episode. hope you got some great valuable tips and we hope you you win that next offer and get an awesome deal. Happy investing.   Tom: Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.

Several of us at Harbor Cov listen to Carey Nieuwhof's podcast and read his blog. His goal is to help leaders and recently he had a great article on advice for leaders. Michael had recently been thinking about a new podcast series and Carey's recent article had several themes that were along the same lines. So Michael decided to do a podcast series reflecting on some of Carey's thoughts as well as his own. This is the first of five in a series. You can check out Carey's article here: https://careynieuwhof.com/25-random-pieces-of-advice-for-leaders-in-their-20s-30s-or-40s/

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac recently announced that they will be allowing banks to have only 7% of their books as second homes or investment properties. In this episode we discuss what these limits mean for small time investors.  --- Transcript   Tom: Greetings, and welcome to The Remote Real Estate Investor. On this episode we're going to be talking about a topic that came up recently on Reddit, it was related to Fannie and Freddie Mac's new announcement that they will only be allowing banks to have 7% of their books as second home and investment properties. We're going to talk about broadly what that means, kind of some crystal ball thoughts on how that could impact remote investors and real estate investors in general, and just kind of riff on it. So Alright, let's do it.   Welcome back, everybody. So before we get into it, just a reminder, this is the hosts opinions and thoughts. This is not opinions and musings of Roofstock. This is this interesting news came out. But before we get into it, who do we have on the call right now? Who am I co hosting with today?   Micheal: Michael Albaum,   Emil: Emil Shour   Tom: Awesome. Alright, so let's unpack this news that came out today related to Fannie and Freddie's guidelines around allowing banks to only have 7% of the books as second homes and investment properties. So Michael, do you want to lead with an initial little speech about a kind of unpacking this this update?   Michael: Yeah, totally. So I mean, it's really interesting that they came out with this announcement, and that they're really going to be limiting the amount of loans that they're purchasing, which is I'm imagining going to have an upstream a pretty dramatic upstream effect on folks. And so basically, as it stands right now, when somebody goes to buy a home, for as an owner occupant, they can typically get what's called a conventional loan through a lender, then that's bought on the secondary market by Fannie or Freddie, these government backed institutions, and they subsidize the cost of the loan, which is why the interest rates tend to be so low versus going to a hard money lender or a private lender, the rates tend to be a bit higher.   So investors can do this too, we can go get conventional loans, or conventional lender that gets sold in the secondary market for investment properties, we tend to pay a little bit of a higher interest rate, because it's not our primary residence, and that's perceived as a higher risk. But we can still get access to very cheap debt.   Now, the fact that Fannie and Freddie are going to be limiting the amount of total investment and second home loans on their books means that they're just going to be buying a whole lot less of the investment property and second home mortgages from those origination lenders. So I think that it's going to force a lot of investors to have to go outside the conventional route. And they'll probably be looking more towards commercial and private capital, my guess is there's going to be some new players that emerge in the space to service those types of loans, because now there's a real opportunity, investors are not going to slow down acquisitions, any, they're just going to have to pay a bit more for the debt. And so the the days of super, super cheap debt being backed by the federal government, probably behind us, and I think it was, as of April 1, these new guidelines are going into effect.   Tom: Yeah, you know, I guess, like kind of down the line, it's going to be tighter for investors, you know, loading up on conventional loading loans for investment properties. And I guess it's the same, but for owner occupied buying those properties, it's just, I guess, frees up a lot of those traditional lenders to just serve as more of those type of loans.   Michael: Yeah, I think we're gonna see a lot more house hacking because of that.   Emil: I wonder if this just means, you know, banks make money every time they do a loan, right? They make money on closing costs, all the fees that they charge to originate a loan, all that stuff. I wonder if you know, will the fact that investors they can do less investor loans? Is that going to cut into their revenue enough? where they're going to have to start just trying to do more owner occupant loans? And do they loosen the standards there? And then do we get a run up of people buying owner occupant? Do you have something like we saw, I don't know 2007 2008? Where it's easier than ever to get a loan, even if you're less qualified as an owner occupant driving prices?   I don't know if the investor market is that significant of a revenue stream for a lot of these lenders. But that could be something interesting that comes out of it. No idea.   Tom: I don't know you'd like in getting like doing refinances all of them are so so busy, I wonder if this is an exercise, just to kind of slow down the amount of volume, you know, that Fannie and Freddie are taking, you know, I think they're shrinking the by, you know, putting this limitation on in second homes and investment properties, this surely is going to tighten up the number of loans that they're originating. So I wonder if this is like purposeful, just to to limit that liability of how many additional loans they're taking on, you know?   Michael: Kind of similar to Emil's point, I would be curious to know of the refi surge, how many of those have been investment properties versus owner occupant properties? That's a good question. I don't I don't know how we find the answer to that. But I'd be very curious. And also, like you mentioned about the profit margin coming from investors versus owner occupants. I've got to imagine I mean, investors, we talked to agents to like, investors buy tons and tons of properties regularly. They're buying and selling, buying and selling constantly versus your owner occupant. That's a once in a several year typically occasion. And so if you can have investors on your books, I would imagine that they're more of a repeat customer more regularly than your owner occupants. So it seems almost counterintuitive that they would want to decrease the amount of mortgages that Investors are able to get.   Emil: It looks like this is being disguised as better underwriting, making sure that there's less chance for default and things. I actually think that it's the opposite. Those are the ones that default more. I mean, if you look back to 2008, it wasn't, yes, there were tons of investors losing homes, too. But it was a lot of just owner occupants losing their homes. So I wonder like, is this a way to help more people be able to get into homes so less investors are going for single family homes so more owner occupants can get into? I wonder what the dynamics at play are here besides what they're kind of saying is just smarter underwriting or whatever.   Michael: But it seems that they already have that a bit with the pricing as it stands today, prior to these, right, you're gonna pay usually around 1% more and your interest rate, because of the fact that it's an investment property versus owner occupant. So there already does seem to be incentives to be an owner occupant buying a property and with low down payment requirements, I mean, there's a higher down payment requirement for investment property.   So it feels like they already have that. But maybe you're right, maybe this is just an additional layer that says, hey, you can't even get a loan from Fannie or Freddie as an investor, you know, if their limits are full for that year.   I mean, this might change the buying cycle two for folks, and that if they look at the calendar year, January to December, well, 7%, if it fills up in January, well, maybe we're Tough luck, everybody buying in April, May or June.   Tom: I'm marinating in my opinions are forming as we're having this discussion. So something that I like, just thinking about this a little bit further, that doesn't sit with me, like super well is, you know, this is very much impacting us as investors like individual, you know, investors, and what an advantage for like bigger companies that have big institutional lines of credits to buying now that it it's less competitive for individual investors…   Michael: Yeah!   Tom: …to get, you know, cheaper debt. So this just hit me right now and thinking about it. I mean, if I'm an institutional investor, and I'm competing against individual retail investors, this is great news. And that retails, one of their strongest points is being able to get really cheap debt through Fannie and Freddie back loans, it's going to be less available for them. So I don't know, this just kind of hit me just thinking about it right now. Like, you know, foods and of the different players that's involved, like, Who is this hurting? And the little bit, but I think it's still going to be available, I don't think it's going to completely dry up being able to do conventional loan for investment properties. But you know, I think it's going to be just a little bit less accessible, these really cheap, cheap kind of debt that you get.   Michael: So do you think that's going to drive prices in kind of that middle market where the institutions don't play and the kind of, you know, one off investors don't play where it's kind of the more semi sophisticated kind of professional investors play that now that they can't get access to some of that cheap, cheap debt? Getting it's gonna drive prices up or down?   Tom: I think possibly. I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't anticipate, you know, big swings…   Michael: Come on Tom 50% swings!   Tom: I think in the larger markets, I think there's so much institutional money buying stuff like I don't think you'll really see much of a difference. But perhaps in those first year in secondary markets, there could be some impact. And again, as I said, in the beginning episode, this is all our our hosts pontificating on this news updates. I don't know, Michael, I mean, maybe a little bit and some of the smaller markets, but I wouldn't anticipate the larger markets where it's already just so competitive, both from the owner oxide as well as institutions that are buying?   Emil: I don't think so either. I think you think about the small investor like us who's using conventional financing to go buy single family homes, that is a drop in the bucket of the overall people buying single family homes, I think about owner occupant, and then once you start really growing a portfolio, you can't even get conventional loans anyway. So like you're getting private money anyway. So I think the interesting opportunity here might be you touched on a little bit in the beginning of the episode is, is there growth in private lending now? Like, can more private lenders enter the game to help these smaller investors get into investment properties?   Michael: Yeah, something I talk about a lot in the academy is oftentimes new investors, I mean, myself included, look at loan products and see one at 4%. And one, two, and three quarters presenting, oh, my God, I have to go with the two and three quarters, it just makes so much more sense. When at the end of the day, if you look at the loan amount, and what that actually translates to, and what your monthly payment look like, you know, on a 65-75-$80,000 loan, even that one and a quarter percent spread might only be 35-40 bucks a month difference.   And yes, that would be better to have than not, but if you have to jump through all these hoops, and it might be more expensive to go even the traditional route, you know, sometimes it's just worth it to pay a little bit more and just be done with it for ease of transaction for ease of scaling. And so I just did that recently. I just got a private loan. It was at 4%. It's a commercial product on a triplex I own it was a little bit expensive, like my total closing costs, including points was like 3.7% of the loan amount, which isn't that unreasonable for a loan and especially for a private loan and 4%, like that's just not that unreasonable for an investment property. So I think that we just really need to understand and recognize that yeah, if that's our only option. Let's just go do it. And as long as the numbers still make sense, awesome, like, there will be a time down the road when interest rates will be less than they are now, maybe or there'll be higher, and that 4% will seem like a screaming deal. Right? And if they go lower, I'll refinance.   Tom: That's interesting, Michael, I mean, you know, you had a triplex and with four units and below, you could have gone for a more conventional loan, which is, you know, drawing up a little bit right, with this new announcement, what made you go private, right away, is it just the maxed out the number?   Michael: so it's interesting, I couldn't actually go conventional, because I am technically self employed. And I don't have two years of tax returns to show. And so Fannie and Freddie, nobody will lend to that's a requirement for my understanding for Fannie Freddie loans, you need to have the self employed for two years, and show that on your tax returns not be employed for two years. So if you started in May, in a given year, you're kind of up a creek without a paddle, so to speak.   So that was the big hurdle for me, I could have got something probably in the low to mid threes. But at the end of the day, this was so easy to get, and I could get it it was available to me. So I said, Let's jump on it.   Tom: Yeah.   Emil: So what's the big takeaway here for our listeners?   Michael: No price changes, go talk to your private lenders. Yeah, I think just exploring all the different options that are available, still talk to your lenders, your conventional lenders, and absolutely look to take advantage of local lenders as well, who can often be a bit more flexible, technically, that could be considered a private lender, in that there, they might not be regulated by Fannie and Freddie as much because they're not selling those loans at they're keeping those loans on their books, they can be a lot more flexible, and so they're likely not going to be subject to these the same requirements, since they're not selling their loans on the secondary market anyhow.   Tom: My takeaway would be to build your bench of conventional lenders, just because you might find some, you know, don't want to underwrite for investment loans with you, and some may have some more flexibility. So, you know, it's not like a monogamous relationship of you know, once you find a lender, you're only using that lender, lender.   So there are, as Michael said, there are local lenders, there are national lenders and meet a lot of people, a lot of lenders out there that don't limit yourself to one if one will not, you know, for whatever reason, maybe they're impacted by this change with Freddie and Fannie, in the secondary market, you know, some might be more impacted than others based on their current portfolio of loans that they have out. So, you know, get out and mingle, you know, meet some lenders meet some, as you're sourcing new conventional loans.   Emil: If you have a lender who is pre approved, you check in with them, make sure you're still good. Make sure everything you know, if you're out shopping, just check with your lender, make sure it'll still be good April 1st.   Tom: Awesome. I think that's great, guys, as always, thank you very much for listening. Have a great rest of your weekend. If you're listening to this weekend wisdom on the weekend, and if you liked the episode, subscribe like us all that good stuff and as always, happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.   Emil: Happy investing. 

Resource Links: Your Social Voice Website (https://www.yoursocialvoice.com.au/) Become the Mogul of your industry (https://www.mogulcall.com) Join our Mogul Mastermind (https://www.mogulmastermind.com.au/) The Mojo Master Website (https://www.themojomaster.com.au/)   Being able to work at your peak performance is the goal of every entrepreneur.  Sometimes though there could be things holding you back. Or you may not be aware of it, but how you think, your mindset matters a lot too.  We get to unpack a ton in today's episode with The Mojo Master, Michael Johnson. Michael takes us through his own story, what led him to break through and find his own purpose, the steps needed to map out your own life, why too much positivity isn't a good thing, and more. Have you been wanting to be better than before? Then tune in now. What we discussed in this episode: Michael's backstory that led to him helping people perform [01:02] Most people aim for short-term, immediate gratification [02:08] Constantly running on adrenaline is an addiction [04:58] Business growth is all able human behaviour growth [12:05] Reaching a breakthrough: Map out your life [13:41] The majority of people don't know who they are [18:12] Get clear on your values hierarchy [22:24] Create a clearly defined purpose and mission in your life [23:37] Balance your emotions and mental state [25:15] Don't focus on the problem, but find out your greater meaning in life [29:30] About Michael Johnson Dealing with undiagnosed Attention Deficit Disorder, learning difficulties, and mild dyslexia as a child meant that Michael Johnson faced a lot of difficulties in school. Things didn't immediately get better when as a diesel mechanic, he saw people making money but still living miserable lives. So Michael strove to find out his own life purpose, which was helping high achievers improve their success, happiness, and fulfillment.  In time, he became known as The Mojo Master, the go-to mindset and mental performance coach for some of Australia's top rich listers, athletes, and business teams. You can reach out to Michael through his Facebook and Instagram.   Thank you so much for listening! If you liked this episode, please don't forget to subscribe, tune in, and share this podcast.   Connect with The Kim Barrett Show:  Subscribe on Youtube Follow Us on Facebook See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael J. Mahony  0:01  In this episode of the technology optimist, Ellen Melko-Moore interviews me about mindset and how it is a game changer. Ellen Melko-Moore  0:22  Hey, folks, I know you're thinking you're turning into Michael Mahoney of the tech Alchemist. But today, I only melco more have hijacked his podcast, we've taped him up in a chair, he's going to be fine. So don't worry about that. But I figured it was time somebody interview this guy, because and I'm going to tell you this, I've worked with Michael for about a year and a half. And what I what you need to know about him is I have never seen somebody go through a more exciting, radical mindset transformation. And he's a tech guy, right? So you might not necessarily think of those things going together. But what we want to talk about today is mindset. And Michael is the person that we need to talk to. So Michael, I have removed the tape from your mouth. Just tell folks at home you're okay. Tell them you're right, fine.   Michael J. Mahony  1:12  I'm doing fine.   Ellen Melko-Moore  1:13  All right. So Michael, let's talk about your journey, your mindset journey. And then we'll lead into kind of where that's taking you for the moment too. But let's go back to about a year and a half ago, when we met on LinkedIn. And let's talk about kind of where you were in in the world of brand marketing digital platform. Let's talk about where you were at that moment.   Michael J. Mahony  1:39  Well, the first word that comes to mind is overwhelmed. Because, you know, we have previously received some advice about blogging every single day turning the blog into a video turning the video into a podcast, I was spending 3540 hours a week creating creating content, and zero hours a week growing my business. And it was making me feel like I was a complete failure. Because here's this business that prior to doing that craziness was doing okay. Wasn't gangbusters, it was doing okay. But then all of a sudden, we're struggling to make ends meet, because our revenue just plummeted as a result of trying to become and you know, the answer was always, oh, just hire somebody to do it? Well, when you're barely making it, you can't hire somebody to do anything. So, you know, my, my brain was in a place of like, well, what have I done wrong here? And then you came into the picture. And I did kind of a cost you on LinkedIn, as I remember. Well, in a nice in a nice way. You You know, you reached out and you asked if if we could have a discussion about my LinkedIn profile. And I don't know how many people believe in like, synergies, but I'm a big believer in and synergistic things. And I had actually just finished reading a book about LinkedIn profiles, and was like trying to wrap my brain around what it was saying. And then you show up, and you're like, Well, here's what, here's what you should probably do. And you gave me, we spent, I think, like, 30 minutes together, and you gave me a lot of good advice, to the point where I had to go back and rethink everything that I was doing on LinkedIn. I didn't love LinkedIn at all. And that's one mindset shift that you've given me is, I see LinkedIn a lot differently than any other social platform at this point in time anyway. Yeah. So it was it was an interesting experience, because you, you brought to light and you were like, Hey, you know what I can tell by reading your profile that you know what you're doing. But I don't know that other people wouldn't necessarily figure that out. So we worked, you know, so I, I, if I recall correctly, we kind of went our separate ways for a little while. And we came back together again. And at this point, my wife Toria was like, Hey, we're going to work with anybody. I want references. Yeah. And so this lady, so this lady here gives us two references. And one of the references is my wife's absolute favorite client in the whole world, that you would have absolutely no way of knowing that they work together, like yeah, shoot, my wife was a behind the scenes person and that person's business. So it's not like you would have met her or seen her through through that other person. And so right away, she said, Well, as long as she gives me good feedback, then this is a done deal. And then, you know, the rest is kind of history as far as that goes. I mean, we've, we've become good friends. I mean, I think as good as you can be when one lives in one state and one lives in the other, but, you know, it's been it's been an amazing experience, you've connected me with some good people. It's it's been a fun, you know, year and a half's journey. So far, I'm looking forward to more.   Ellen Melko-Moore  5:09  Me too. And one of the things I love about you, Michael, is that anytime I pick up the phone or we get on zoom, I know that we're going to go kind of right to the heart of the things that we see around us. And the end the ideas, the common ideas that people teach about digital platform and marketing. And we're going to kind of dissect them and sort of pull out what works. Let's talk about a couple key shifts, I believe, that I saw for you were one about the kind of clients that you not not only that you could work with, but you should work with. And secondly, being a little bit more yourself for you and Toria communicating in a little bit more freeform way. So let's talk about the mindset shifts you went through there?   Michael J. Mahony  5:57  Well, both of those things are kind of related to the purple hair. You know, the purple hair came about? I've wanted, I've always liked odd hair colors on other people, always. And I've always wanted I mean, when I say always since I've been in my 20s I've wanted to do. But if I even had highlights in my hair, people would judge me and say, oh, like, why did you do that? You know, men don't do that. And so lot so with all this issue, we we learned that we needed to work with people who were more like us. And it's funny today, that's like a big deal. To me, like I go full, of course. But back then we were trying to be on a solution for everybody. And we were wondering sometimes like, why do I? Why do I dread my weekly meeting with this person. And right away, we realized it's because of of them not really being our ideal customer. And by that I don't mean what everybody hears necessarily about Avatar and, you know, narrowed down to this exact person. I mean, just in general, we're very sarcastic people. I'm extremely sarcastic. And I'm very blunt. And levels of snark and blunt. Yeah. And so you can't, you can't have sensitive people that you work with, if they're sensitive, they get very defensive, and it makes me have to change who I am. And when I have to change who I am, that I'm not comfortable. And I understand people say you get out of your comfort zone, but that's not really it. It's more of a, you're who you are as a person isn't what's coming out of you when you have to change who you are. So I learned that. And I also learned that letting go of clients who don't fit that mold, was probably the best thing we could ever do. We We both both my wife and I immediately terminated a single client each. And you know, there's the fear of Oh my god, you know, I just let a $12,000 a month client go away, what am I going to do? And then a $15,000 a month client shows up. So you just sort of go, how did that happen? Oh, and by the way, they like the sarcasm. They make the same kind of jokes that we make they carry on conversations much the same way. Yes, there's a synergy that's there just works. And for me, the crazy part was, if I remember correctly, and I'm kind of thinking back about my history here, I think that our first meeting together was in May of 2019. By that point in time, as I started saying, we were struggling, not even sure we'd make it. And within three months, our revenue was six fold what it was before, and it was insane. And I can only attribute it to the mindset shift. That's the only thing that makes any sense. I mean, oh, yeah, this is one of the reasons I love to listen to you as a reference for the work that I tend to do. Because again, what I want people to hear from this, there is not some magic person outside you is going to come and give you the perfect strategy and tactics. What's different and I always love the dating metaphor for this because it is very apt. And if you try to be married to the wrong person, for 20 years, every day is a lot of work. And this person may be very attractive in certain ways that maybe the person your mom told you to date or marry or whatever. But every day and here's the thing. It's a lot of work to be a small business owner. It's a lot of work to be an entrepreneur. All you do Ellen Melko-Moore  10:00  All we truly have is the quality of our days. But as woowoo, as this might sound, perhaps to a former Well, I'm very much a tech expert, but a guy like you, who does specialize very much in strategy and the data and those those profit centers, you found out that when you got in that energy of being married to the right person, ie clients who have the money to pay you, they enjoy who you are, they come in ready to be part of the solution, instead of throwing up their hands and being like, Yeah, I don't know, you should do stuff. Yeah, that's what's so cool. And if people are hearing your story, what I want them to hear is, here's a guy with an extensive technology background and extensive data and strategy background. And simply by changing who you were being throughout the days, and who you were dating, that wife or that husband that really wasn't doing you any good. A new person comes in. And I think it takes something to say, I'm going to fire the $12,000 a month client, I bet there's a lot of people listening, who when they think about applying that to themselves, it makes their toes curl. But what I when I tell people your story, this is the part I was concentrate on, here's somebody who, who was not necessarily thinking in a mindset of I deserve to be happy, there's a synergy. And once you went over that way, and you really embraced it for you like what it means for you, not someone else, revenue six times, and you went from that struggle of it's also hard and oh my god, what do I do to a place where you just kept getting more prosperous? And not only that, but let's talk about other mindset shifts, started to come in, like once you really open yourself to what? Michael J. Mahony  11:58  Yeah, it's kind of crazy, you know, you use the marriage analogy. And it's actually perfect, because I'm actually on my second marriage. And the difference between the two is somehow being with someone who's supportive, and likes me, for me, not for what I can provide for them, not what I can do for them, but likes me, for me. So the purple hair can be a thing, because if it's something that makes me happy, she's okay with that. As long as it doesn't hurt her, she's okay with it. And I think that's the same thing you need with your business, you need to put your fingerprint on your business, that's your own unique self. And what happens is you build confidence that you didn't have before you, for instance, I have regular clients who they're like ad hoc clients, and they don't, sometimes they just don't think about you. And so you don't get any business from them. Well, I've learned to just get on the phone and give them a call and see how they're doing and say, Hey, remember, I'm here, if there's anything I can do for you reach out, and that brings projects in on a regular basis. And that's amazing. Because before I would have kind of sat back, like a wallflower and waited for them, but instead that I now I'm going after them, because why not? It's what I would want to do. You know, previously, it's what I wanted to do. Now, that's what I am doing. And yeah, I also think that once I saw the results, they were so quick, that it told me something, you know, now, all along, the problem wasn't the type of work we were doing. The problem wasn't the quality of work. It wasn't even my knowledge. It was just working with the wrong people choosing the wrong projects, and having the wrong attitude about those things. Like one of the reasons why we all work for ourselves is to have the freedom to set your schedule how you want work with the people you want, do the things you want to do, and not feel, what's the word I'm thinking of here not feel pressured by Unknown Speaker  14:06  an uncomfortable situation. Because when you're when you find yourself in a super uncomfortable situation, that you kind of have to get through like say, say like, you know, we've both experienced, you know, illness issues, you kind of say to yourself, oh my gosh, you know, I wish this would just go away. I don't really want to have to deal with this. But at the same time, you know, you have to deal with it. And it's uncomfortable, and there's not much you can do about that. But in your business, there's a lot you can do about it. If you have that customer who makes you uncomfortable. Find them someone else to work with and pass them off. Because Unknown Speaker  14:38  it's like the pay it forward concept. You know, when you figure out that you let something go better things are gonna come back. It works. And I mean, like in Victoria's case, she terminated that client and literally the same day. She got someone in the same field that paid her double what he was paying her for less Unknown Speaker  15:00  hours and Unknown Speaker  15:03  didn't treat her like dirt and eggs to this day, she still works with them. And he continually tells her that she's the most valuable person in his organization. And it's crazy to think that, you know, year and a half ago, she was struggling with this other guy. And you know, I couldn't stand it. And what I, what I learned from her situation, quite specifically was that you, you have to trust your gut. And if your gut is saying, This guy isn't right for my business, then that guy's not right for your business. And you know, you could be wrong, but one of the things you taught us was, and I tell this to people all the time these days is, we have our virtual board of directors. And when we want to make a decision, we ask the virtual Board of Directors, what would this person say, and then we think in terms of that person, and we make the decision based off of the input we get, I mean, it's, it's driven a lot of things like where we're running into a one, almost a one year plan for a new business that I think we would have tried to jam through in three months, wouldn't consult with our board of directors, but our board of directors kind of gave us the feedback that slow and steady wins the race on something like this, and you need to slow it down and do it right now and just get it out there. I love that you said that. So, folks, what we're talking about is you pick three or four people, you can pick them from history, you can pick famous people, you can pick family members, this is an imaginary board, and you pull in three, four or five people that you really admire. And again, I have clients who have a fictional character on their imaginary board of advisors. But the idea is that you choose people that you feel inspired by that are wise, that have different gifts than you do. And you can in your mind, you know, ask a question to these people, and just sort of see how they respond. And if because we all have tendencies that don't serve us, some of us jump into things and force it too fast. Other people just study, study, study data, data, data, maybe they take too much time to get into something because they're afraid to jump, every single person, all of us have ways that we do things that may not be the best for us. So what I love about what Mike just said, is the trends I see, Mike, you tell me whether you agree with me, one, we've got this obsession with numbers that digital marketing has created. So you know, you have to have 20,000 people on your mailing list. Well, we would argue if you've got 200 engaged people who are the right people who can afford you, that is a more valuable mailing list, especially author. And then secondly, you don't have to jump on every single idea and trend and make it uncomfortable for you and other people that you work with, if you are just being intentional. And what's weird about the whole mindset, dating reference is think about this, like think about your digital platform, whatever it is you're doing to let the world know you exist. Well, if you've taken the time to figure out who you really want to date, and who you really want to marry. And then you put out a dating profile, where you're very stiff and very formal, and you're not forthright. And you don't really let people see who you are, guess who's going to come into your world. And we always just say to people, you have the right? Have you ever heard the expression that we get in love who we believe we deserve, like who we're with is who we believe that we deserve. And I think that's absolutely true for clients, get the clients we deserve. And if we've been struggling for a while, and things have been hard, and we go through a period where it's just scarcity, or you know, all of a sudden the entire economic structure of the world changes like six months ago, we get anxious, and then we just try to start dating everyone. And in order to date everyone. Now we compromise our language and who we are and how we're being because because we've got to appeal to all these hundreds of people who might be dating us. And I like I love that you're a numbers guy. And you switched your mindset to thinking instead of how much can I do and you moved into this mindset of what is not only the most productive way for me to move, but it's good for our long term happiness. I mean, that's what I see. Do You Do you agree with I completely agree. I think that one of the things that comes to mind from the mindset shift is Unknown Speaker  19:50  I realized towards the end of the year last year, that focus is something that every business needs, you have to have focus and Unknown Speaker  20:00  People say well, but there's so many moving parts, how can you focus? Well, you have to choose. And so first quarter of 2020 focus was video marketing. And what happens is, you spend three months working on something, you get a process going, and you just continue it, it keeps going now, now where what It's September, so we're, we're nine months, almost October, actually, it's October tomorrow. So we're almost 10 months into the year. And the last seven months, the video marketing just keeps happening every week, because I put a focus on it, then in the second quarter, I had a different focus and and you know, this, the third quarter in the fourth quarter, different focuses. But by having a focus, you're able to move something forward dramatically, rather than, let's say I had done all the things that I'm doing in the first three to four, first three quarters of the year, try to do them all at the beginning of the year, a little bit at a time, I'd be nowhere right now. But by focusing, I got video marketing flow, and the new focus is email marketing. And that starting to flow, we've learned that it that the mindset thing switches over into the sales copy that we write, because when we write sales copy, you know what if I want to say something is bullshit, I'm gonna say it's bullshit. Because if you don't like that word, then you're not my person, you don't belong working with me, and I don't belong working with you. And it's funny, but we thought you know, it, I think we instinctively knew this, but we needed someone to say it to us. Because we, like when I was with my ex wife, most of my friends were people she chose to be friends with through her volunteer activities, and whatever. So we'd have all these couples that we were friends with. And I'd always go out, and I'd have an okay time when I'd go out with these people. But I never was like, elated by having gone there. And so then when, you know, with Victoria, she came from another country. So she came from Canada, she came over here, and I immediately started a Unknown Speaker  22:00  community Meetup group on Facebook. And we started with just one other person, to other people, pretty soon it got to like 20 other people, we made out of those people, we made like four or five really good friends. And when I say really good friends, I mean, these are people that at any given moment, if I, if I hung out with any of them, they make me happy, I enjoy my time with them. In fact, we get to the point where we lose track of time. And that's exactly what happens in your business. Because by having the right people in the you know, in the on the bus with you, you're happy to do the work that you have to do, and you are suddenly motivated, I have found my creativity has gone through the roof. And you're right, I'm a very much a numbers oriented person. And my biggest problem was that coming through corporate America, I was taught that, you know, you're a CTO, you have to wear a tie, and you have to like, you know, be really stiff. And you know, people ask questions, most of the time you answer Let me check into that, you know, you don't commit anything. And I used to think to myself, why am I doing that? I know the answer, I can't I just give them the answer. That's me. I'm not gonna mess around here. Yeah. And then I'd get in trouble for it, you know, and so you learn to just zip it Don't say anything. But when you're running your own business, who's going to yell at you, you know, I mean, I'm my own boss, I'm certainly not going to be schizophrenic and start switching chairs and screaming at myself. It turned everything around. But it also made me not afraid to ask for the things that I want. Even with, you know, my wife's my business partner. And there's been times where I have felt that maybe her attention to what our business needs, wasn't as good as it should be. I asked her for it, Hey, you know what I need you, I can't do this by myself, I need your input. So I need an hour of your time. And we've learned that that's the way it has to work. Unknown Speaker  24:01  You know, you have a business partner, if your business partner wasn't doing what he was supposed to do. And you would just sit back and take it. You'd never progress either, right? I mean, that that's another good whatever marriage dating scenario, because I believe everything's possible. And he believes most things aren't possible. And I mean that in a good way. That's great with that balance each other because I'm always enthusiastic about new things, new people, new ideas, and he's had to drag me kicking and screaming through the digital platform marketplace, because I was one of those people that was really good with an offline business. And weirdly enough, I helped tons of other people with their concepts and their online content. But when I wanted clients, I just went to a networking group and chatted with people and because I'm a charming pig, you can fill in the mF from Pulp Fiction if you know the reference, I'm talking to people like you know, not everyone likes me but people who did we're like oh, Unknown Speaker  25:00  I'll see what the slide is about. So there's a balance there, that happens. And it can happen with clients too. For me, I think the thing I love most about getting to do this is we definitely are in a team together. I feel like when you're a effective entrepreneur, in a b2b scenario, you are on a team with your clients, they need to show up, you need to show up. And if you can kind of understand that that is a reciprocal process. Because before you might be like, Oh, I just have to impress this person and do all this stuff. I remember early on when people were going through the part where it's really hard, like you definitely went through, you know, you had a time where you're just like Elon, I just what is happening here, in the old back before doing this a lot that would have upset me, I would have thought, Oh, I'm doing something wrong. I'm Whatever. I'm glad in some way. And having done it a bit. I actually enjoy that moment now, like that moment where it's hard. And everyone's just throwing their hands up in the air and is the expert. You know, you feel like well, I should have an answer right now. And I love being able to tell people the truth, which is, you know, we're going to find the answer. We don't have it right now. It's not in front of us, we need to keep looking. But what I know is if you can get through that part as a team, the rewards on the other side of that bridge are extraordinary. Because now you've moved past, oh, well, there's just the super obvious thing, you should do these 18,000 things, I'll do these 36,000 things and it's all going to work out. I want to go back to a minute just let you set about the focus for quarters, because I think anyone listening to this, Mike's talking about he was talking about his focus in q1, q2, q3, he's got different, a different area of focus. So if he needs Mike needs to do a podcast and video marketing, he's not going to add all those things at once, he's going to take a quarter and work on something until it gets more automatic and tell it's more worked out. Before he adds a new piece. And I would argue that the single biggest determinant that I see of whether or not a small business is going to be more successful or go in a lesser, less satisfying direction is focus. And, you know, that's obviously what we'll talk about. It's super tight, because it's things you have to do as a business owner, an entrepreneur, if you don't have that ability to kind of go slow and steady add, add, add your experience of yourself. I mean, talk about a confidence Crusher, because as you're trying to add Oh, and this and this and this, and then you you know, you see someone on a webinar, and they're like, Oh, I took my business to nine figures. And all I did was this one thing and and you start to believe that shit, like that feel. And the truth is often people don't. Sometimes we get lucky. And we ride in on a wave of something we don't even understand that there was luck involved, very much other hung up on like the particular tactic or strategy. And maybe it's just not a good fit for us. But so and so said back in 2010, you know, when when digital marketing was relatively new, oh, well, so and so you know, made nine figures with this. So obviously, there's something wrong with me. And all of those breakdowns come from getting confused like other people's Oh, we should do this, we should do that. And what I Another thing I love about you and I'd love for you to free to talk about before we kind of go into your what you're doing now. Because you have it you have a new focus. We want to tell people tell people about your weekly meeting with with Victoria, your business partner, tell them about what works, what's working and what's not, which I think is one of the smartest things I've ever heard. Sure tell. Before I go there, though, something dawned on me while you were talking. You know, we talked about working with the right people. And I think it doesn't just by No, it doesn't just apply to your clients, it also applies to experts you bring into your business to help you. And as I was thinking about it like Unknown Speaker  29:14  with you, if I had it to do all over again, start at the very beginning, Unknown Speaker  29:20  I would have still worked with you. Because I would have figured out that, let's say let's say it's this year instead of the last year and I've already learned to work with people that are more like me, you fit that mold. And I mean, like when we when we came to you, you know where you live in Denver. We Unknown Speaker  29:42  agreed to get together with you and it wasn't a obligation. It was a lot you know, and I think that's really important because how are you going to take somebody's advice if they make you uncomfortable and and feel pressure, right? So that's Unknown Speaker  30:00  That's huge. But as far as the meeting goes, it's not actually a weekly meeting, it's a monthly meeting and what what I learned through corporate America, and it's something I've taken and kind of made my own is that if you don't manage it, then if you don't manage something, if you don't, you don't pay attention to something, you can't manage it. And so we have, we have actual tangible proof, we meet on a monthly basis, we call it our vital factor meeting. And we have a pre planned agenda, it's mostly the same agenda with new business thrown in, but there's steps that we go through. And the first thing we do is we review our numbers, just to see where the numbers are going well, on months, when we've forgotten to do our meeting, or we've gotten too busy, we don't do it, we have a terrible month, because we were not paying attention. But the main thing that you what you brought up is we have a section of our meeting where we talk about what is working, and what is not working. And some people might chuckle at that, why do you even talk about what's working? Well, we want to celebrate, we want to say, Wow, we brought in this new virtual assistant, and she's killing it, you know, and talk about the decisions we've made and how they've paid off. But then you get to the what's not working part. And that one is probably the main reason for the meeting. Because we sit there and we say, all right, XYZ isn't working. Maybe you know, maybe as an example, it was the video marketing, video marketing is not working. Like I'll give it that's actually a good example. Because we were paying somebody $500 a month to create these videos. And they were always late. When the videos came, I'd look at them and go, I could have done that myself in 30 minutes. Why am I paying someone $500 for this. So we did a what's what's not working. And one of the things you do with a not working list at somebody gets assigned that as a project. And there's a goal set around it. And the you know, the goal might be, let's say in our September meeting, that that was the issue, oh, by October 15, you're going to have come back with a solution to that issue. And instinctively, you just solve all of your you solve all of your problems as you go along that are solvable. And sometimes you find that you see things that are way out on the horizon, that would have been a disaster. But for the fact that you saw that it wasn't working, and you put somebody's mind to work fixing it. Um, talk about mindset, this is sorry to interrupt you, but this is about this, if you every month have a category called what's not working, and nobody has to feel bad or wrong, or negative. It's a fact of life, that stuff works and some stuff doesn't work. And when I heard the first time you said this, I was I thought it was so brilliant. I stole it for myself, with my partner, and sometimes with my clients because it takes away that sort of bad and wrong, you know, sort of frustrated. And then again, one of the neat things about synergy that I know you and I believe in that some people call energy or law of attraction or synchronous, what have you. If you automatically create that space for this isn't going very well, but I want it to go better. And then you put a date on it. And you give somebody the job of Okay, you're gonna be you know, you're not responsible for the ultimate solution, but you're responsible of how do we move forward with this? I should probably never say the words ultimate solution on on air again. But anyway, you know what, you know, that's mistake, speaking of snarky, so that bit of opens up that space for that. And actually, Mike, this is a good tie in to your new offer, and what you're going to be doing, like the new focus for your business, because what you and Toria have really realized is you've come up with some pretty killer things to help, you know, help small to medium sized businesses. So would you would you talk a little bit about kind of the new solution that you guys are moving towards? Sure. Well, you know, in in 2018, I ran for Board of Supervisors in Orange County, and I spent a lot of time talking to business owners, I was given a great strategy by somebody, they tells me to go out, find a small business, talk to the owner. And then like just have a conversation and then ask them if they put a sign up in their window. And it really it really worked. Well. I mean, I expected to get maybe 500 votes, I got over 15,000 votes. And I had a lot of support in the county. But what it taught me was that there are people out there running businesses, especially in California, they're getting murdered by regulations, like businesses are just getting squashed by regulations. And so we came up with this idea that we've been batting around for a while and we finally decided to focus on it and turn it into something Unknown Speaker  35:00  Big. And you know, you constantly see membership sites out there. And you see people selling the same information over and over and over again, just just recycled. And you know, you and I've talked about it before, I don't think either one of us is super fond of the membership model per se. But it works for this situation, because what we're, what we're doing is where we're creating, it's called the advocates network for small business. And the whole idea is going to be to help business owners, and educate them on how to deal with, you know, what you want to change that law in your state, here's what you do, you want our help with it, we can help you with that. But you've got to reach out to us and we're gonna, it's, it's kind of the, you know, you teach Amanda to, if you give Matt, the food, he'll just keep begging for the food. But if you teach him to find the food and hunt and fish, that he can feed himself. So that's what we're gonna do is teach you that. I love that. And again, another great distinction This is when you listen to Mike, you're always hearing distinction. So listen for what he just said. I mean, to me, what we're talking about is we don't like membership sites, when it's repetitive information that you can get a lot of places that people are recycling, and then generally bring in other topics that there's that, then there is membership, where there's a very specific focus, I would call it super tight focus. It's very intentional, it's for a specific problem. And it's also addressing what is sometimes called the whitespace, and the market and missing space, where there's a problem. But there isn't a solution that's available to most people. a membership site is great for that, because it isn't the kind of thing that you're just going to show up for one meeting and then be like, okay, we're done. Now. It's something that's going to take that building that process and, and learning and being part of a group. Now, that is an incredible membership site, and Unknown Speaker  37:03  your people there. I mean, this is huge, Mike, anything is, it's not your typical, here's some content, goodbye. It's more the concept, and I don't want to go too much detail into it. Because someone will steal my idea. But it's a couple minutes left. Yeah, it's a networking and advocacy business. So we're gonna bring businesses together, we have a lot of great ideas on how to make that work. We're looking into like swag boxes, and how to put those together and how much they cost. And we're going to, you know, I'm going to be talking about this a lot in this show, we're going to be promoting a live event that will be a two day event to launch this business. And we'll probably do it about 30 days before the actual launch of the business. But we want to show people what Advocacy Network for small business is going to be able to do for them and for their business. And I think we could leave it there. But it's it's exciting because it is a focus. And this is where the where the virtual Board of Directors really saved our butt. Because we would have been like, quick, let's get this done by December, we've got time. Instead, we started thinking about it. And we said, Wow, what we ended up doing was we put this is interesting, too, for the vital factor meeting on our vital factor agenda for the last two months has been each month, and what we want to accomplish for our Advocacy Network to get it launched. And we worked backwards from launch day, to now. And we spent 20 minutes talking about those things and then setting a meeting outside of our vital factor meeting to handle those things, right. And it has changed my stress level to like next to nothing when it comes to this new business, because I know it's going to launch on time. I know it's going to have everything it needs. Because we've been thinking about it for a year by the time it launches. And when I say thinking about it, I mean, giving it attention. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, I think it's so exciting. It also kind of combines two, well, three things that you personally are very good at. I mean, you are very interested in social justice in community, our ethics, you know, all that fun stuff. And when I call you a social justice warrior, I don't mean like SJW I just mean, you're somebody who stands for, let's make stuff work. So that's one area. The other thing, of course, you're very good at is strategy. And I think one of the things you have become the most brilliant about is really understanding that there's what goes on in our minds, and then there's how it's being received on the other side. And in order for a brand or a business to work. You have to kind of understand that conversation. You have to ask yourself, what's your impact? You know, you give words like what is the impact of your words? What's the impact of the idea you have, how is it going to impact society and other people because it's Unknown Speaker  40:00  Hear it? Because it exactly, because you have to know what you want the impact to be so that you can see, okay, well, here's what the impact I wanted. And here's what I'm getting, I need to bring it closer to what I wanted. And it helps you again, it comes back to that focus. But I was thinking about something, tell people tell people about what you what is your date, what it is that you do, because I know you, you just went through a rebrand in your business. And one of the things I love is that you have that term, and it's been in the three brands I've seen you with, it's super tight. And for me, that's actually kind of been something in the back of my mind, everything that we do is my mantra is processes. It's all about the process. And keeping the process super tight, is what makes things work. So tell people what it is that you're doing. Thank you. So we so we were we've been super tight brands for about 10 years. But that was always hard, because a lot of people don't really understand what brand is they think it's the logos. So the point was, we always had to sort of sell around brand. And we were like, you know what, what we really do is help people create intense relationships with their brand that makes them sell the sell their service or product easily. Then we changed it to super tight social selling. And I think that theme is very much there. But again, just trying to make things easier for ourselves. And we know that we're really into social selling, but that's not a concept that many people have quite, you know, some people know what it is some people don't. And so we're like, Alright, let's just make this as easy for people to come into our world. So we are now super tight LinkedIn. And the idea is we start with that process, we make sure that people have a LinkedIn system that works for their personality and their brand and what they're doing and who they want to talk to, in a way that it's easy to manage. But the cool thing is, while we come up with it with all that looks like we super tight the brand and the marketing the audience the position. So we're freaks about really good, super tight niches, niches we, we are more picky about target audience than anybody I know. Like when people say, oh, target audience Yeah, guys in their 40s. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. So that's kind of that is what super tight means. And whatever iteration we do, it's always going to be super tight. Like that's because we can look at a concept. We can look at an audience and a concept and a message and a market. It either is super tight, or it isn't. And anybody really can look at their own brand and say, All right, I'm very clear on all these things. And also, I can tell it's resonating out there, because you know, money, revenue, people Yay. But we all go through stages where things get muddy. And I think that's normal. And it isn't anything bad. But it's okay to work with other people doesn't have to be me. But it's okay to get outside help. It's okay to talk to someone else about your concept. And, you know, be picky obviously, about who you trust. But at the same time, like the description Mike just gave of his his new membership service that is super tight, it's for a very specific purpose, it serves a specific person, it is this thing, and it's not this other thing. And because he's a smart guy, he's not going to add 18 things on top of that, he's going to let that stay super tight. So anyway, I'm Ellen melco. More currently, from super tight LinkedIn, because we just love LinkedIn, we're crazy about it. And you can find me at LinkedIn LML comm or and Mike if he wants to can put in the whatever the stuff that goes with the podcast, there is a link that we can give you that, like you can sign up for what's called a LinkedIn profile audit. And that's just you and me on zoom, having a chat about your goals and what you want to do with that, and it is complimentary, and you don't have to hear about my offer. So well. And I highly recommend people do that. I highly recommend people do that. Because the reason that we're super tight on our focus on things is from what you taught us and, and I truly mean taught us, you didn't beat us over the head with anything. You You guided us through a process that took us from point A to point B. and point B was like a much elevated position. And when we take the time to think about that, with everything that we do, I can tell you I've asked questions like when Torrio will come to me and say, I have this idea I want to do this. Okay, well, what do you Why do you want to do that? What's the purpose? What are you going to accomplish by doing that? And sometimes she'll be like, I don't know and I go then you can't even think about doing that yet. If you don't know what the purpose is. Why bother? And that is exactly why advocates network has sat on the back burner for probably a year. Unknown Speaker  45:00  A year and a half, because I didn't feel it had a tight enough focus. And once we finally came to the conclusion that, Oh, this is what it should do. And this is how it should work, then putting together an outline of what needs to be done, it's like to do it in your sleep. But I appreciate that. super tight, it was super easy. Yeah, well, I mean, and I appreciate you, and everything that you do. And that's, you know, there will definitely be both, both on the YouTube description, we'll have a link. And in the podcast, show notes, there'll be a link to get that audit because that's where I started. And I'm telling you, at this point, revenue is about 10 times what it was when we started working with you. And that's, that's monthly, and it's consistently on a monthly basis, to the point that this pandemic, I almost feel bad because there's so many people struggling, and we've just kind of cruised right through it. Because I really think it's because we were set up for success before all this happened. And, you know, there we didn't even have to pivot. We just kept going straight ahead. So thank you for that. You know, and I want to mention our sponsor for the show that our sponsors. Yeah, you're our sponsors, your virtual CTO, your virtual CTOs and technology services company, specializing in increasing your revenue and profit through a close examination of your technology engine. We offer exclusive coaching for business leaders. It's the only coaching program that includes technology as part of the programming, you're going to learn a little bit about technology. So if you want to learn more, go over to get your virtual cto.com that's pretty much all I have to say today. Now and we've untied Mike from the Chair, thank you for letting Yeah. Unknown Speaker  46:49  Because I might be bored next week, so you never know what's going to happen. Unknown Speaker  46:54  It everybody out there thank you for listening. And again, if either of us can help you please reach out because we this is like I mean Michael and I stations literally all day because we love talking about this stuff over here. Unknown Speaker  47:08  That's it for Bye bye.  

In this short episode, Tom and Michael share their file organization strategies to ensure pain-free access to all the documents you might need as an investor.  --- Transcript Tom: Greetings, and welcome to The Remote Real Estate Investor. Join with me today is,   Michael: Michael Albaum.   Tom: On this episode, we're going to be talking about the folder structure we use to organize documents. So a very pragmatic and practical weekend wisdom. All right, let's do it.   As I mentioned, this is a more practical episode of weakened wisdom. And this content is brought to you by Roofstock Academy. This is directly out of some of the coaching session conversations that we have some of the templates that we have, we're organizing documents. So this is a great kind of sneak peek behind the veil of some of the content and type of coaching stuff that we do within Roofstock Academy.   Excellent. So whenever I buy a new property, this is the folder structure that I like to use within each property, a folder for tracking or having ready on hand the purchase and sale agreement, the tax bills that come in any marketing collateral, like photos that was perhaps collected during the inspection that I can have on hand to share with my local property manager from the transaction, a copy of the lease and historical leases, the closing statement, the insurance documents, as well as the loan documents and the property management agreement. So a bit of a mouthful. So Michael, any thoughts or other comments on here?   Michael: Yeah, totally. So I think that's a really great way to organize things. So what I do, and I just pulled up my one of my folders, and I'll kind of give everybody listening, a walkthrough of what that looks like. So because I purchased mostly inside of LLCs. And I'll often form a new LLC for property purchases, I'll have all of the LLC documents. So first off, on my desktop, I have something called real estate. And then inside of real estate, I have all the LLC folders. And then within the LLC folder, I have the formation docs for that LLC. So the operating agreement, the articles of incorporation, Articles of Organization, all that all the formation documents, then I'll have property specific information that I can drill down to in property folders inside of the LLC folder.   And so like you, I have the closing statement, all of the marketing materials for that particular property, all the due diligence materials for that particular property, and I'll call that property docks. And then I break mine down into, I have additional folders where I'll have that year, and then insurance and that year and taxes. Because those things aren't static, they're not constantly evolving, but on an on between year to year there, they can be changing. And so I know that if I have to go pull my most recent property insurance Doc, I'll go to 2020 property insurance. And then I can also track it from 2020 2021 to 2022 and see what's been changing and can kind of compare and contrast those quotes. And then also have folders.   I have one right now that I'm working on a refinance. And so I have a refinance folder. So all of the things that I need to refinance that property are going into that folder. So bank statements, income statements, tax returns, all that kind of stuff goes there. And then if it doesn't work out with this particular lender, if I go to refinance with another one, I've got most of the stuff I need there, I'll just have to update bank statements and brokerage account statements, all that kind of stuff. So that's kind of how I have mine broken down. And then I'll put things in multiple places. I was just joking with my wife the other day, I'm a bit of a hoarder. I'll admit that   Tom: Digital hoarder   Michael: Physical and digital hoarder, yeah, by all means.   Tom: So you need some Marie Kondo in your life, does it bring you joy?   Michael: Well, we just spent like, all weekend, this past weekend, getting rid of stuff. And that was a pretty liberating feeling. So I've tried to do that digitally as well. But so I'll put things in multiple places. Because I know if I can't find it, I can just go to a couple different folders and find it. So like, I have another folder that I titled taxes. And again, I'll put the year so for my 2020 taxes, I had a folder where all of the things I knew were going to be part of my tax return or needed for my tax return, I'll put there like property tax statements like insurance documents that show how much premium was paid. And so all kind of double dip and put things in a number of different places for myself. But I think that was a really long and drawn out explanation.   Tom: No it was great.   Michael: I have those same documents on hand that you do the leases and the invoices for that property, essentially, any document associated with that property will be at least in that property folder, and it might be in a subfolder in and of its own.   Tom: Yeah, you know, and if you don't want to get you have like a million different folders. Another way to organize this just to make sure that you have all the documents because sometimes it could be kind of silly having a folder with just one document in it is to have a spreadsheet and then a checklist verifying that those documents are in sort of the the single folder. So a couple of other documents that we left out that we could include is that you have a warranty a home warranty, you are going to want that easily accessible for, you know, hopefully you don't need it. But if you do need it, other ones is major work that was performed perhaps an invoice that's going to be helpful come tax time. And you know if perhaps something, let's say you have work done on a water heater, and then a month later, there's some issue with the water heater, right? So that that kind of gives you some ammunition of going back to the company that did the work saying like, Hey, I just paid for this. Why am I you know, why is it not working? So having that stuff it pays it pays to not be a digital hoarder, but be digitally organized. Being a digital hoarder just makes it take longer.   Michael: Yes, it really does. It really does. And something that I've done I know I've talked about in other episodes is I've got a master Excel spreadsheet with every property that I own inside of every LLC. So I'll have the LLC name at the top, and then the properties in that LLC. And just all of the expenses that I pay personally, are logged in that sheet. And so I've got a record of them on the property Doc, if somebody needs to see that I've got a record for myself to know that I have to give this to my CPA at the end of the year. And then I also have a record showing kind of globally, what that picture looks like, how much did I if somebody said, Hey, Michael, how much you spend on insurance in 2020, I could spend about three minutes and tell you just totaling up from all the different LLCs how much I spent.   So that level of organization is helpful for me, I find that to be really useful. Not everybody will and everybody can, I would encourage everyone to develop their own system, because not everybody learns the same, not everybody works the same. So figure out what works for you. Maybe that's QuickBooks, maybe that's paper documents, you know, a filing system that works for you. So play around with some different stuff. But I would definitely say develop really good habits at the onset, when you've got one or two or three properties because those systems are going to be you're going to rely on them a lot more as soon as you start to scale. Because it does become a little bit more cumbersome if you haven't developed something from the onset.   Tom: And a lot of these templates is a great benefit in Roofstock Academy, and that we have a lot of these kind of pre baked templates for, for this type of stuff, the spreadsheets and, and all of that great stuff. Go ahead Pierre, you were saying…   Pierre: The photographer and the music producer in me just couldn't help but notice that you guys didn't talk about backing up your files.   Michael: Oh, dude, that's so good. All right. So Pierre, you bring up a great point about backing up your files. So I used to work for a property insurance company and we had this like killer IT department and the IT guy was a good buddy of mine. And so all my stuff was always backed up on my work computer. And I didn't really worry about it too much my personal computer, well, I had him build me a personal computer and I was backing up all my stuff, I got my computer stolen like a year and a half ago, and come to find out that my stuff wasn't backed up as well or as robustly as I thought it was. So that was like, I don't know, eight or nine years worth of like stuff and files and organization that I had to redo the vast majority of some of it, I was able to recover but a lot of it wasn't and I like I was in tears for a while. And that was a really big bummer. I would say to put it lightly to the to the PG version. So backup your stuff, whether you use, you know, an external hard drive or something to the cloud, figure out something, but be really, really, really consistent and know how to find it and know that it's backing up and have it backup at some regular interval that's not a year. So whether that's daily or weekly, or hourly, or whatever works, but because having your stuff evaporate really sucks.   Pierre: So the common practice in photography or other media work is that your files are backed up in two places. And your personal computer is not in place. That's liable to crash at any point and you can lose all of your stuff on there. Your files need to be in two separate places, maybe two separate physical locations or on the cloud and on a hard drive somewhere.   Michael: That's so good. That's super good.   Tom: Yeah, so many great relatively inexpensive cloud based storage stuff and external hard drive hard drives are cool but it's like another like thing you know?   Michael: Yeah. And it's it's like another computer like if it drops or breaks or gets wet. Like get your up a paddle, up a paddle without a creek. creek without a paddle.   Tom: Doesn't bring me joy. Well, the cloud brings me joy, but teach their own.   Michael: Yeah. Great. Great point Pierre.   Tom: Awesome, guys. Well, I hope you got some value out of today's weekend wisdom on talking about folder structure. Anyways, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please rate us please check out rootstock Academy, all that good stuff. All right. Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.

This is a replay of one of the TOP downloads from 2020. It is still sooo relevant to today's world situation.In this episode, let's talk about how to be a bubble buddy in the pandemic or any kind of wild and crazy situation that happens in your life. Now we probably need to explain a little bit for everyone outside of New Zealand. What the bubble buddy or what is a bubble, because not everybody uses the bubble term. Alright, so what's a bubble buddy? Well, here in New Zealand we are NOT in lockdown level four anymore, which means you need to stay at home. You're supposed to stay at home and you can go for a walk or a run or a bike ride around the block or you know, just stay close. You're not allowed to get into the car.  You can go to emergencies, essential services, like if you've got to go to the doctor or if you've got to go get food, but essentially that's about it. And you're supposed to stay in your bubble. Your bubble is the people that you're living with. So Michael and I have been in our bubble now for how long? A few weeks, and we're still alive. We want to talk about being bubble buddies and respecting your bubble. And also, because this won't be the only time this happens to any of us in our lives. I mean, there'll be situations where we might just have to be all together for whatever reason, and we're in close quarters and we have to respect those close quarters and, so having said that word, what do you think about the word RESPECT? LISTEN FOR THE REST OF THE STORY!How to Support the Mission of the Show?1. Be a Hero and tell a friend and loved one about the MD and Chef Team podcast. They will surely thank you. 2. Join the CEO of Your Health FB Live Weekly Coaching Group. This is where we do weekly coaching sessions and have a community that inspires each other to be better in health and life.https://doctoronamission.mykajabi.com/ceo-of-your-health-fb-group3. Follow our adventures on the Doctoronamission VLOG. Do you love stories and video adventure to laugh, cry and be empowered? So do we. That's why we have a vlog (That's a blog done in video style.) Just the way we do it here at Doctoronamission!https://doctoronamission.com/blog/ 4. For daily insights, imspiration, and behing the scenes action, follow us on Instagram and Facebook; just look for Doctoronamission (Dr. Isabel MD)https://www.facebook.com/doctoronamission/https://www.instagram.com/doctoronamission5. Apple users, please subscribe and review our show on Apple podcasts, we read them all. Android users, subscribe to our show on Google podcasts. Subscribers never miss any of the action!LinkedIn: https://nz.linkedin.com/in/doctoronamissionPinterest: https://www.pinterest.nz/mdandchefteam/Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mdandchefteam)

We're in the final 3 episodes of Star Trek Discovery Season 3 now.  The crew enter the Verebin Nebula to rescue a Kelpien survivor and learn the source of The Burn. This episode gets a little wacky with the away team, but also gives us some real growth for Tilly as she takes the captain's chair for the first time. ----more---- Transcript   Welcome to Nerd Heaven. I’m Adam David Collings, the author of Jewel of The Stars And I am a Nerd   This is episode 48 of the podcast   And today, we’re talking about the Star Trek Discovery episode “Su’kal”   This episode actually came out on the 25th of December in Australia, so I spend my Christmas night watching Star Trek. Not a bad way to round off a happy Christmas actually.   The description of Memory alpha reads   Discovery ventures to the Verubin Nebula, where Burnham, Saru, and Culber make a shocking realization about the origin of The Burn as the rest of the crew faces an unexpected threat.   This episode was written by Anne Cofell Saunders It was directed by Norma Bailey And it first aired on the 24th of December 2020   Make it so. This is a bit of an unusual episode, which took a few unexpected twists and turns, but it was still pretty good. It’s got some thrills near the end, some growth for some of our characters, and some kinda weird but fun stuff with the away team.   We pick up right where we left off last week. Our characters are still at Georgiou’s memorial. Adira is feeling a bit left out. Everyone here seemed to know Georgiou. They’ve all been through so much together. They all came from the 23rd century together. Adira is the odd one out. A native of the 32nd century. Not a Starfleet officer. Stammets tries to reassure them that they’re still a part of this crew. The crew are all here for you. Culbert and I are here for you. And then Gray shows up. He hasn’t appeared to Adira in a long time. With no explanation.   I like how Stammets says into the empty air “You’re lucky we’re at a memorial service because otherwise, I’d be giving you a piece of my mind.”   I really like how Stammets just takes this thing at face value, and doesn’t treat Adira like they’re crazy. He can’t see Gray, but he believes he’s there and even addresses him from time to time.   But in hindsight, it’s occurred to me that it may have been a good idea to recommend a medical examination, just in case, to make sure Adira isn’t hallucinating. I mean, the disembodied soul of a former Trill host appearing in a form only the new host can see is not exactly out of the range of possibility in the Star Trek universe, but it might not be the only explanation.   For all Stammets knows, Adira could have schizophrenia, which is probably not something you want to leave untreated. I don’t think that’s what is happening here, but it’s probably a good thing to rule out.   Anyway. Gray explains why he’s been absent. He’s struggling with the whole disoconnected aspect of his existence. He has consciousness. He has emotions. But nobody but Adira can see him. He can’t interact with anybody else. That’s not what life is supposed to be. It’s like he’s stuck in limbo, a ghost that can’t move on.   This is a very believable reaction to his situation. And I’m glad the show is addressing it, allowing Gray to feel this way and struggle with it. That’s some emotional realism right there. The kind that I like characters to have.   He also admits that his struggles are no excuse for simple vanishing without an explanation. He could have explained this to Adira before he vanished.   Admira promise they’ll work this out together. Somehow.   With this nice little character moment done, we launch right into the main plot of the episode. they’ve recovered some new data from the Kelpien ship. There’s a life sign.   Saru reverals the Kelpien doctor was pregnant. That’s what the marks on her head were about. Not sure why he kept this to himself but anyway. Her child, now an adult, is still alive on that ship. So they jump into the Verubin nebula, which looks awesome.   I’ve learned, through a little research while writing Jewel of the Stars book 1, that if you were inside a nebula, it would not look like this. In fact, you’d see nothing. The gass particles are so sparse they’d be essentially invisible. It’s only many lightyears away, where you can see from a vast distance, that the particles appear close enough to actually look like anything.   But I can’t help but forgive Star Trek for getting this wrong, and it’s been getting it wrong since The Wrath of Khan, because it looks so good. And this nebula, with modern CGI, looks like something straight from a Hubble image.   Anyway, the radiation is wreaking havoc on the ship. They’re gonna have to leave the nebula, but Saru is unwilling. Or, at least hesitant. Michael seems to interpret this as emotional interest in the Kelpien. And in fairness, there may be some of that, but recovering this Kelpien is important if they want to understand the cause of the burn. And goodness knows Michael has been compromised by that obsession herself.   This episode has a thread running through it of “Saru can’t be trusted to make rational decisions because there is a Kelpien on board.” And I still don’t get that. Kaminar is still out there. He can go visit it next time he has shore leave. It’s not like this crashed ship is his last chance to ever see his people again. I think this whole business is artificial and overdone. But we’ll keep talking about this as the episode progresses.   Anyway, Book takes his ship ahead. He has better shielding and his ship can morph, as he calls it. That morphing thing has never been explained. What exactly does this weird reconfiguration of his ship accomplish? What’s it all about? While Book is mapping the nebula, Discovery jumps back top safety.   The radiation gets to him a bit but he manages to locate the ship and it’s lifesign before auto-pilot brings him back to Discovery. He’ll be okay after some DNA recombination.   The Kelpien ship crashed into a planet that’s practically made out of Diluthium. That’s good news for the Federation.   Saru plans to lead the away team personally. While not standard Starfleet procedure, it’s not unheard of for a captain to be part of an away team, if there is deemed sufficient reason. Vance and Michael both give him a look for this, but Vance accepts it. It’s Saru’s call.   Personally, I think Saru has sufficient justification for this. A single KEpien survivor, all alone. Never seen anyone else. Having someone of the same species could be reassuring. And I think you’ll agree that the episode demonstrates that he was right about this.   My only concern is leaving Tilly in charge. You know I love Tilly. She’s one of my favourite characters. And You know I want to see her achieve her dream of being a captain. But I’m still not convinced she’s ready for this yet. Although, nobody knows the challenges she’s about to face. If The Emerald Chain didn’t show up, she’d have been quite capable of holding the fort until the away team returned. But we’ll get to all that.   We learn that the Emerald Chain are running military exercises near Caminar. Osyrra is trying to lure Discovery out so she can steal its spore drive. Starfleet is going to handle that. Discovery has a job to do here.   Do you notice that Vance is really sold on this mission to learn the source of the burn, now that they have solid leads to follow. Early in the season, he was very hesitant to expend any resources on this, because there were more important things to deal with. Ironically, they could never have gotten these solid leads if Michael hadn’t been like a dog with a bone in the first place.  So Michael tells Book she doesn’t think Saru can be objective.  She’s not sure how he’ll handle it if he has to make a hard call. A painful one. First of all, Michael herself doesn’t have a great track record when it comes to difficult calls. Vance even called her out on the whole Arium thing earlier this season. I’m not saying Michael is right or wrong, but I’m curious what has lead her to this conclusion about Saru.   I don’t think any of this stuff is fair to his character.   Stammets is freaking out about Culbert going on the away mission. At first, I thought this was really weird. This is Culbert’s job. He’s a Starfleet officer. Starfleet officers go into dangerous situations all the time. That’s part of the deal if you’re a member of Starfleet, or you’re in a relationship with a member of Starfleet. Stammets is both. Plus, Saru just said that as long as they take the right medications with them, they should be fine.   But I realised, actually, my wife pointed it out. Stammets has already lost Culbert once. So he’s understandably over-protective here.   Now despite what I said earlier about Tilly and her unreadiness to be first office, I do really like how they develop this whole thing in the episode. First of all, we get a wonderful scene where Michael reassures Tilly and tells her the story about the little bur of metal under the arm of the captain’s chair. How Georgiou used to press her finger against it to keep herself in the moment during difficult encounters. It’s a wonderful exchange that they’ll call back to a number of times.   I love how she allows herself the moment of fear and anxiety, with her trusted friend, and then sucks it up and says “okay, let’s go.”   With medications, the away team will survive four hours on the planet. Discovery’s shields will take three hours to repair. After that, they can jump back in to rescue the team.   And despite everything, Tilly looks good in that chair. Michael is right, she does belong there. It’s her destiny.   The away team arrive on the crashed ship. And this is where everything gets a little weird. The first thing we notice is Michael is dressed differently. She and Culberty are in thick jackets with hoods. Then we realise that Culbert is a Bajoran and Michael is a Trill.   Now … forgive me for thinking we’re suddenly watching Hitchhiker’s Guide to the galaxy. I mean, what’s next Is Saru going to be a penguin?   No, Saru is Human. I called it before we saw his face. Just before the camera shot that slowly panned up from his feet. So we get to see Doug Jones out of makeup. That’s kinda cool, because we can finally see all his amazing face acting. Don’t get me wrong, nobody can act tinder all that prosthetic like Doug Jones can. He’s a master, but he’ll always be able to do more with his face without all that slapped on him.   The other weird thing is, they don’t appear to be in a ship. They’re outside surrounded by snow.   Of course, we quickly learn they’re on a holodeck inside the ship. The holodeck has changed their appearances. We know it could do that, even in the 24th century.   This is all very strange, and it is explained, at least somewhat a little later, but I think the writers just wanted an excuse to get Saru out of makeup and see the others as different species. They wanted to have some fun with it.   The bad news is, they’ve lost all of their equipment. No badges and no medications.   If Discovery returns as scheduled, they’ll be sick but alive.   The first holodeck character we meet is wearing a new Starfleet uniform. We haven’t seen this one before. It seems to be a bizarre blend of the discovery uniform with the TNG uniform. It’s got a very shiny version of the TNG com badge. No idea if this is supposed to be a real uniform that was worn at some point in history. Until we see it outside the holodeck I think we can basically dismiss it.   Clearly, the holo programs are malfunctioning due to over 100 years of exposure to the radiation. When they enter a different part of the program, the holodeck changes their clothes again. They find a crumbling structure with some very cool looking alien creatures flying in the distance. Here’s a strange thing. Saru asks if human bodies react negatively to heights because his heart is racing. So are we to assume the holodeck has somehow reconfigured Saru’s internal organs? That doesn’t make any sense. A surface-level image to change their appearance, sure. But to make Saru’s body react differently, that seems a little absurd and completely unnecessary as we’ll soon learn when we discover the purpose of their transformation.   They find the Kelpien child, now an adult male. And Saru’s eyes nearly bug out of his head. OH, it’s another Kelpien. How amazing. It doesn’t make sense. The child assumes the away team are programs but Saru tries to explain they are from outside the simulation.   There’s a door here containing something that scares the Kelpien. The door breaks open but nothing comes out.   The episode portrays the Kelpien as mentally a child, because he’s never seen anythingh outside of this holodeck. Again, that doesn’t make sense to me. Sure, his perspective will be limited, but his faculties still should have developed just like anyone else. He has the brain of an adult. I’m not sure it makes sense that he’d mentally be a child.   A voice goes through the Discovery com system. “We’ve found them.” A female voice. Why this voice is heard on board Discovery is never explained. It doesn’t make any sense. We know how this is, but why would the voice be heard here?   Anyway, Discovery has picked up another ship nearby. A Federation ship. Now we all knew where we thought this was going right. How many of you thought this was going to end up being another USS Discovery, tying into The short Trek calypso. I was relieved to find out that wasn’t where they were going.   No, it’s Osyrra. Trying to sneak up on them by emitting a Federation signature. Apparently, she used a transwarp tunnel to get here. Book keeps saying nobody would be silly enough to use one of these tunnels but has never explained why. And it seems OSyraa’s ship came through fine with no problems. Anyway, she’s been tracking their ship since Kwijan and she wants Discovery’s spore drive, and she wouldn’t mind the planet of dilithium here either.   Nice to learn Discovery now has a cloaking device. This makes sense. Ever since the fall of Romulus, the treaty of Algeron would no longer be in effect. But they can’t jump while cloaked. Again that makes sense. Starships don’t seem to be able to do anything while cloaked. Culbert and Saru find more holo characters. One of them, a vulcan, explains that this holoprogram has been set up to help raise the Kelpient child, educate him, and prepare him for the day rescuers would finally arrive. Since he has never seen anybody outside of the program, the holodeck has changed their appearance to make them look like part of the program. Okay. That part makes sense. But why does Culbert fit into this program more as a Bajoran than as a human? Why does Saru fit in more as a human than as a Kelpien? They still look like themselves. This doesn’t make any sense to me.   Michael meets the creature behind the door. It looks very spectacular. Wonderful CGI. It chases her for a bit before she somehow falls upward and finds herself in another room with the KElpioen. In order to not freak him out, she pretends to be a program, one designed to teach him how to interact with outsiders. Meanwhile, Saru and Culberty find a holographic representation of a Kelpien elder. They learn the Kelpien child’s name is Sukal. That name symbolises the end of suffering and is given to a baby born after a hardship.   Saru is enjoying what the elder is able to share with him. The song. How it reminds him of home. But it doesn’t stop him doing his job. He’s learning what he can from the book. And he realises what it is that Sukal is afraid of. It’s a monster from Kelpien mythology. Apparently, nobody will be able to leave this program until Sukal is willing to face the monster. Again, not sure why.   The visuals of the fortress and the flying creatures continue to be absolutely top-notch.   At this point, Tilly is feeling a whole lot of anxiety. Facing down Osyraa in her heavily armed ship is not something she expected to have to deal with on her very first time in the big chair. Tilly’s lack of experience adds a whole new dimension of tension to these scenes. It’s v very effective. I find myself doubting Tilly’s ability to handle the situation, but desperately wanting her to rise up to the challenge and prove me wrong. So even though I wouldn’t have put the character in this number one position, I’m finding that this is effective story-telling here in this episode.   Tilly is not feeling as confidant as she’s trying to portray to Osyraa, and yet, if you compare this scene to the scene in season one, where she pretended to be Killy while Lorca stood at her side, she is so much more confidant now. She has come a long way.   Osyraa is trying hard to convince Tilly she hasn’t got what it takes.  And Tilly is putting up a brave fight in this battle of wits.   The away team are all back together again, and Sukal is face to face with the monster. And then something weird happens again. He pulses with a shockwave of energy. This energy disrupts Discovery’s cloaking device. But worse than that, it’s starting to destabilise the Dilithium in the ship’s core. That sounds familiar. Sukal’s shockwave almost caused another burn. So it seems that Sukal was the cause of the burn. How? Why? We don’t yet understand. Why can be do this weird shockwave thing? We don’t know. But it’s all about him. Interesting. With both ships unblocked, it’s time for a battle.   Tilly is making a hard call. She has to jump away to prevent Osyraa from getting the spire drive. She promises they’ll come back for the away team, but it’s not looking good for them. Book takes his ship to rescue them, but Adira also has a plan. She just needs Jett’s badge.   Saru manages to calm Sukal by singing a Kelpien song. As he calms, the monster scurries away. Nobody but Saru could have done this.   Tilly says she’ll self destruct the hip rather than let Osyraa get it. It’s a wonderful moment. But instead, when threatened, she tries to jump away. And that makes sense. Self destruct should be a last resort. IT makes sense that she’d try jumping first.   Culbert theorises that being in-utero amongst all this dilithium and subspace radiation  explains why the radiation doesn’t kill him.  Something must have happened to trigger him when the burn happened.  Perhaps the death of his mother?   Saru has to return to the ship to deal with Saru. He asks Michael to stay, to help prevent Sukal from causing another burn.   Michael argues it should be Saru, because of his connection to Sukal as a fellow Kelpien.   And now Michael gets back on her “Saru is compromised” horse. He says he would never let his emotions to factoir into his decisions. She says he already has. I’m not buying that. Sorry. Yes, he’s a little distracted, although I don’t think the episode has given him good reason to be. But he hasn’t yet made any mistakes because of it.   Look, if this is all part of the season’s on-going Saru learns to be a better captain arc, then I’m okayt with it. But it’s starting to feel like they’re setting up to push him out of the captain’s chair so Michael can take it. If that’s where they’re going, I’ll be very disappointed.   Culbert also wants to stay. He knows what it’s like to be alone in a world that doesn’t make sense.   They’ll only have an hour before the planet kills them. But Adira beams down with more radiation medication. That’ll buy them more time.   Osyraa takes over the ship by sheer force of numbers. Her people beam on board and secure both the bridge and more importantly, the spore lab.   Tilly doesn’t have a chance to destroy the ship.   Michael and book arrive just in time to see Discovery and Osyraa’s ship jump to Federation headquarters.   End of episode.   This is a thrilling cliffhanger. And I’m dying for next week’s episode.   I loved the stuff with Tilly in the captain’s chair. I’m still loving Janet Kidder as Osyraa. And the stuff with Sukal was very interesting. I’m so glad that Michael Burnham wasn’t the cause of the burn.   It looks like we’re gearing up for an epic ending to the series. Just two episodes left.   I say bring it on.   Overall, this season is doing a much better job than the last two seasons of paying off it’s mystery. And yet, there are still some threads that seem to have been dropped. Remember how the Vulcans were absolutely convinced that the SP-19 data proved the burn started at Ni’var? That’s been conveniently forgotten. It doesn’t add up for me. And what about that music? Will that come back and be any further explained? Because honestly, the little bit of explanation we had for that last time it was mentioned made very little sense. We’ve still got two episodes left, so the music, at least, might still get a bit more exploration, but I’m not counting on it. And even without these elements being handled satisfactorily, it’s still overall a strong season, in my opinion,but I’m pointing these things out because they do bug me somewhat.   Anyway, far be it for me to end on a negative. I think next week is going to be a thrilling episode as Osyraa strikes at the heart of Federation headquarters, and we will hopefully learn some more fascinating things about Sukal and The burn.   I think we’ll have a lot more to talk about regarding the season mystery this time next week.   Next week’s episode is called There is a Tide (formerly announced as “The Good of The People”) It’s another Jonathan Frakes episode, so that’s always cool.   I’m now officially on Christmas holidays and won’t have to return to work until mid January. I plan to use some of this time to work hard on Jewel of The Stars book 3, and get it published as soon as possible.   I hope you had a good Christmas and have enjoyed some time off, if possible. It’s been a long weird year, but it’s almost over.  Anyway, catch you next week. Live long and prosper. Make it so.  

In Unification III, Star Trek Discovery gives us a conclusion to the classic beloved Next Generation Story. But can this episode possibly live up to its name? Michael Burnham travels to Ni'Var (formerly Vulcan) where the Vulcan and Romulan people live in peace, thanks to the efforts of her brother Spock. Can she convince them to provide the data that could help understand the source of the burn? ----more---- Transcript Welcome to Nerd Heaven. I’m Adam David Collings, the author of Jewel of The Stars And I am a nerd.   This is episode 44 of the podcast. Today, we’re talking about Star Trek Discovery Season 3 Episode 7. Unification III.   The description on Memory Alpha reads While grappling with the fallout of her recent actions, and what her future might hold, Burnham agrees to represent the Federation in an intense debate about the release of politically sensitive – but highly valuable – Burn data.   The episode was written by Kirsten Beyer It was Directed by Jon Dudkowski And it first aired on the 26th of November 2020.   So this is the big one we’ve all been waiting for, ever since the episode titles were released a while back.   Here’s an important guideline for life. If you’re going to name an episode after one of the most beloved and iconic episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, one that brought Spock himself into the 24th century, you had better make sure the episode lives up to the name.   So...did this episode do that? Let’s talk about it and find out. In the wake of her demotion from first officer last week, this episode opens with Michael struggling to understand whether she still fits in here. I was talking about this last week. Wondering how much longer Michael is gonna stay in that uniform. She’s asking herself the same question. She believes in the ideals of the Federation, no question. But struggles with the chain of command. She’s the kind of person who wants to get things done. She sees something that needs doing, she’s just gotta do it. Regardless of who tells her not to.   But there’s another aspect to it as well. As much as she wants to be with her family on Discovery, she’s grown close to Book, and she wants to be with him too. He has no interest in joining Starfleet. She’s caught between two worlds who don’t want to collide.   I like how this season is continuing to call out Burnham on her need to take responsibility for everything. They’re kind of portraying it as a character flaw. I’d say this does help to alleviate the whole “everything is about Michael Burnham” problem that the show will probably always suffer from.   So Michael and Tilly have an awkward catch-up. It’s a good scene. It gives some character consequence to the events of the previous episode. Nothing is really resolved, because sometimes things can’t be easily resolved, and Michael has a lot of soul-searching to do at the moment, so Tilly takes them back to the task at hand.   With three black boxes, they have proven that the burn had an origin point. But it’s still not enough data points to fully pinpoint the location. Tilly says the three data points would be enough to triangulate in two dimensions, but in three-dimensional space, they’d need more. I found myself wondering if this was just nonsense, or based on real science. I did a quick look, and according to Wikipedia, Triangulations of a three-dimensional volume would involve subdividing it into tetrahedra (which are triangular pyramids) packed together. So Tilly is actually correct. But the big question remains if Michael is senior science officer, how come she doesn’t know basic geometry? The answer to that, is they need to explain things to the audience. It’s basically a glorified “as you know Bob” conversation.   And we learn the name of the first ship, whose black box Michael got her hands on. The USS Yelchin. This, of course, is a nice tribute to Anton Yelchin, the actor who played Checkov in the Kelvin-verse movies. Who was tragically killed way too young. I appreciate these little moments.   Michael has found a record of an old Federation experiment, SP-19, which had a front-row seat to the burn. They must have valuable information, but they never shared their findings.   Admiral Vance says we don’t have access to their information, because it’s on Ni’Var, a planet that was once called Vulcan.   And this is the part of the episode where we get lots of goosebumps. It turns out, it’s not just the Vulcans who live there now. They share their planet with the Romulans.   Saru and Burnham have heard of the Romulans, but know of them only as the enemy who fought a war with Earth in the 22nd century. Vance quickly breaks the news to them that Romulans and Vulcans were two tribes of the same species that went their separate ways. Correct. Discovery came from a time before Balance of Terror, so they shouldn’t know this.   But Burnham’s ears perk up when Vance mentions that Ambassador Spock helped bring them back together.   Sonequa Martin-Green’s facial expressions during this scene are fantastic. Once again, I’m in awe of this thing called acting. Michael has deliberately not looked her brother up to see what kind of man he became. I’m not entirely sure why. But now she’s learning just what a legend he was.   There’s so much packed into these couple of sentences. Burnham is shocked to learn just how instrumental to history her little brother was, but then her face turns to joy as she realises, and we realise, that Spock was ultimately successful. It took centuries after his death, but the Romulan and Vulcan people eventually re-unified.   This made me very emotional. We all remember that scene at the end of Unification, where Spock talks about the growing awakening he’s seeing in the Romulan people. “It may take them centuries to achieve it, but they will achieve it. And I must help.”   This actually ties nicely into Star Trek 2009 and Star Trek Picard. Spock helped get the ball rolling, some of the enmity between the Romulans and the Federation faded as they worked as allies during the Dominion War. Then Romulus was destroyed, and the Romulan people became refugees. They had no home. Where else, logically, would they end up, but on their ancestral home with their genetic cousins.   I’m thrilled that Star Trek has now canonised the fact that re-unification was successful. Spock’s dream has been realised. He never lived to see it, but his sister did. And that’s just so heartwarming. I love it.   But it’s not all roses. Ni’var left the Federation over 100 years ago. It seems there’s still a little work to be done.   Okay. So even before the burn, The federation was running out of Dilithium. And that makes sense to me. It’s a finite resource. You may have many planets to draw on, but you also have many many ships using it. SP-19 was Ni’Var’s contribution to solving the problem. An alternative propulsion system that would allow instantaneous travel, much like the spore drive. Yes. Good. This is the far future. They should have been developing stuff like this.   But they felt their technology was too dangerous, but it was so promising, the Federation ordered them to continue. They believe the Federation forced them to cause the burn.   Wow. That’s an interesting development. This is one of those many theories Vance said are floating around.   But Michael quickly jumps on this. She has proof the origin point of the burn was not Ni’var. They would want to know this. It could not only alleviate all their feelings of guilt, but rebuild the relationship between Ni’var and the Federation. Vance doesn’t think any evidence will convince the Vulcans and Romulans, but then he gets this little smile as he realises he has Spock’s sister. If she comes bearing that news, they might just listen.   And that’s when we get another really touching scene. Michael views a holographic recording of Spock during the events of Unification. It was recovered from the files of Admiral Jean-Luc Picard. Now you might ask, was Picard actually filming this encounter that happened in a cave under Romulus? Where did this footage come from? Actually, I think it’s conceivable that Picard did make a record of all this for Starfleet. He wasn’t holding a camcorder, but maybe his com badge was able to record it. Or maybe Data was standing just off-screen with a tricorder. Who knows. But I’m more than willing to suspect a little disbelief on that because it’s just so touching to see Michael watching this.   I was kinda hoping for a scene just like this, actually. They even picked the exact clip that I would have picked.    I find myself having the exact same emotional reaction to Burnham during all this. Kinda half crying, half smiling. Michael is so proud to see what became of Spock. When she last saw him, he was just a junior science officer on the Enterprise. A man full of internal conflict. He was nothing special. Except to her. He hadn’t yet become the legend we know him as. This is just so satisfying to see. One of the first things that I thought about, when we learned Discovery was going to the far future, was “I wonder if Michael will look up her brother and see what he became.” I like how Book is just standing with her as she watches the recording. He knows how important this is to her. It speaks volumes of their relationship that she chose to watch this in his presence. And I laughed when he said “You guys are chronic over-achievers.”   I’m really liking the Michael/book relationship. So much more that I ever liked her with Tyler. This is not the kind of shallow relationship you often see on TV, that is based on nothing but sex appeal. This is a bond formed over a year of friendship. That’s the foundation great relationships are often built on. I can see these two spending their lives together. I could never see that with Tyler.   Now the episode introduces an interesting subplot. Saru asks Tilly to be his acting first officer while he decides on Michael’s permanent replacement.   I have mixed feelings about this. Tilly is shocked. I love how she says “Sir…...what?”  She didn’t even complete the command training program. But she’s had enough real-world experience that Saru thinks she’s already exceeded the parameters of that training. Possibly true. But she’s just an ensign. Only a year out of graduating. She was a cadet in season 1. And this is my big issue with it. It kinda reminds me of Star Trek 2009, when Kirk went straight from cadet to Captain. No Ensign, Lieutenant, Commander. It’s like going from kindergarten straight to university. This isn’t as extreme as that, thankfully, but it still feels like an unnatural jump. Don’t get me wrong. I love Tilly’s ambition to be a captain. And I absolutely want to see her get there. But it’s a process. She needs to work her way up there. I think Saru should at least be offering her a promotion to Lieutenant along with the job (which frankly she has probably earned at this point.) It would be a weird situation. Almost the entire crew would outrank their first officer. There’s a difference between position and rank, but the first officer of a ship usually holds the rank of commander, and is outranked only by the captain.   But rank aside, Tilly is also concerned because she would be responsible for a lot of lives. And that makes good sense. I like this. The feeling of inadequacy, when responsibility is offered to us, is a very common human reaction. Saru is right about one thing. Unlike Michael, he knows Tilly will always put the needs of Starfleet and the Federation above her own wishes. And then Tilly asks another very good question. “Are you asking because I’m qualified or because I’m compliant?” I like that. She’s concerned Saru just wants her to be a puppet. But he believes this is in the best interest of the crew. And Saru wisely sees she needs a day to think about it.   When Tilly talks to Stamets about it later, he is kinda weirded out. He admits the notion of her being his superior, of him taking orders from her, is deeply deeply weird. Almost disturbing. I’m pretty sure that statement was going to be followed by a “but” but he never gets it out because he’s interrupted by something.   So they jump to Ni’var. And Statements gets to use the new Gel interface for the first time. When we see discovery emerging from the shield that hides Starfleet headquarters, I thought this was a new spore jump effect. It seemed a disappointment. Then I realised my mistake. The jump looks basically the same, but it is faster. They don’t sit there for ages spinning the saucer. Makes sense. Same technology, but with a 32nd century upgrade.   They meet the president of Ni’var. She is honoured to meet the daughter of Sarak and the sister of Spock. But she makes it very clear right from the start, that there is no chance of sharing the SP-19 data. She explains the delicate political and cultural balance that exists in this post-unification world. The burn only made that more delicate and digging into this stuff could reopen old wounds. We don’t fully appreciate what she’s trying to tell us here, but we’ll gain more insight as the episode progresses.   So Michael, in a last-ditch effort, she invokes an ancient vulcan custom that will allow her to un-earth deep truths. She forced the president’s hand. A little more of her impulsive and insubordinate nature coming out. But Saru is willing to go along with this.   We see that Discovery has now been upgraded with 32nd century transporters. So the old pre-tos effect will no longer be seen.   This ceremony is kind of like a trial. It’s Burnham’s assertions that are on trial. She gets an advocate. But only members of the Quowat Milat may serve as advocates. So that’s a connection to Star Trek Picard. This order of Romulan warrior nuns were first introduced into Star Trek canon by Picard season 1. Apparently, they were instrumental in helping the Romulans and Vulcans trust echo there during the early days of reunification. Which makes a lot of sense to me. This episode really is bringing a lot of things together. I like that.   As soon as the president says one of the Qowat Milat sisters has taken a particular interest in Burnham’s case, we know it’s likely somebody we will recognise. When she says Michael may have an interest in her as well, it’s all but confirmed. And then when she beams aboard with a hood over her face, we know they’re setting us up for a reveal. So who is it? It’s Gabrielle Burnham. Michael’s mother. That’s an unexpected development. Gabrielle never made it to terralysium. She arrived in the future on Essof IV. That’s the planet where they captured the red angel. So she travelled in time but not space. (and yes, I know, galactic drift.)   But that still doesn’t explain why Michael and Discovery ended up on that random planet when they got here. I wonder if we’ll ever get an explanation for that.   We learn that even within Starfleet, it is not widely known that Discovery is from the past. Given the temporal accords, it could be a controversy that Vance doesn’t need. Interestingly, this also helps to explain the A designator on Discovery, even though it’s just a refit and not a new ship. They’re portraying the illusion that it is a new ship. Okay. I’m with that now.   The quorum is made up of a Romulan, a Vulcan purist, and a half Romulan half Vulcan. Michael assumes the Vulcan purist will be the one they need to appeal to. He’ll listen to logic. Surprisingly, he is the most hostile to her cause. And it’s the Romulan who is most sympathetic. From his perspective, carrying the weight of guilt for the burn has been a hard thing for the Romulan people. They would welcome evidence that they are not responsible.   There’s a big question of who’s interests Michael is representing. Her own, or those of the Federation. Her mother feels she needs to be truthful with them about her feelings of misgiving concerning remaining on Discovery. She also points out the quorum are not the only audience in the room. That’ll be important later.   The Vulcan representative says that the SB-19 data conclusively proves that the burn started at Ni’var. So I’m very curious to know the specifics of that data. If Vulcans, who are purely logical, are that convinced of its accuracy, it’s going to be very difficult to disprove. Is it possible they are right?   So then Michael’s Mum, who is supposed to be her advocate, rips into her really bad. Attacking her position and everything she’s saying. Michael won’t be honest about her misgivings, so Gabrielle makes them public for her. This leads to a great scene where Michael is finally honest and shares her heart with everyone in the room. I don’t have much to say about it, other than it’s great stuff.   A lot of this becomes more about Michael’s dilemma and less about the SP-19 data. It’s a time of reconciliation between mother and daughter.   This is when everything starts to fall apart. The Vulcan is as determined as ever to keep the information secret. But the Romulan advocates are seriously considering sharing. And we begin to see the tenuous fabric of re-unification falling apart. The Romulans are openly opposing the Vulcans. The peace, so hard-fought by Spock, and others is breaking apart. This is what the president was afraid of. All those old feelings are coming to the surface and it’s threatening to put a rift between the Vulcans and the Romulans.   Michael points out this is the last thing her brother would have wanted. If they truly honour Spock’s memory, they can’t tear their family apart again.   And so, Micahael withdraws her request. It turns out that unification is more important to her than the data. She demonstrates the purity of her motives to everyone in that moment.   This all works beautifully on so many levels.  Michaels helps to recement the relationship between Romulus and Vulcan. In a way, she does help to finish the work that Spock started. And by helping to re-connect, in a small way, Ni’var with the Federation, she is still doing the work of reunification.   But, there was another audience in that room. The president. And she decided to trust Michael with the data.   There’s a touching moment between Gabrielle and Michael. “You always know where to find me. For the first time since Michael was a little girl, she has her mother. They may not be living close to one another, but she’ll always be here on Ni’Var if Michael needs her. And that’s wonderful.   So then we get the scene where most of the crewmembers that Yilly all know tell her to accept the job as first officer. As Stamets says “We know you, and knowing you, we’d follow you anywhere. Saru made the right choice.” It’s very touching.   It gets even more touching when Micahel tells Tilly that she’s not leaving Discovery. She’s here for the duration. So Michael has made a firm commitment. And Tilly’s first order is for Michael to analyse the SP-19 data, solve the mystery of the burn and rebuild the federation. She doesn’t even have to tell Book she’s not leaving Discovery. He knows. So what does this mean for them? They’re not sure yet. But I have no doubt he’s gonna stay close. They each feel like home to one another. So that brings me back to my original question. Does this episode live up to its name? Is it worthy to be called Unification III?   Well, after thinking about it for a while, I have to say yes. This episode pays homage to Unification in a profound way. It shows the end result of Spock’s work. It demonstrates that his greatest hopes and dreams for the Vulcan and Romulan people have been realised. But this episode pays homage in a way that feels natural and not forced or overly fan-service-ey. This is more than just a nostalgic callback to Unification. It’s also its own thing. It’s very much its own story. So I say a hearty well done to Kirsten Beyer and all those involved in the making of this episode. I think it’s a triumph. It certainly made me feel, which is the goal of any story.   I think Unification III will be remembered among the classic episodes of Star Trek.   We’ve now passed the halfway mark of season 3. I wonder what the rest of the season will bring. It’ll be interesting to find out.   So, next week, we’ll be celebrating the one year anniversary of Nerd Heaven. I can’t believe we’re there already. Thank you to all who are listening. I know there’s not many of you, but I appreciate that even a single person would take time out of their day to listen to me yabber about Star Trek and other nerdy things.   I’ll try to make it special somehow. I have a week to think about how. In the meantime, have a wonderful week.   Live Long and Prosper.   Make it so.  

In this episode Emil, Tom and Michael discuss the most important factors to consider when looking for insurance. --- Emil:  Hey everyone, welcome back for another episode of your favorite show The Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Emil Shour. And today I'm joined by my co host,   Tom: Tom Schneider   Michael: Michael Albaum.   Emil: So in today's episode, we're going to be talking about how to find and vet an insurance provider. So let's hop into this one.   Emil: Alright guys, before we hop in, let's talk updates, what's going on your real estate investing lives?   Michael: So I had that six unit under contract I was talking about last time that fell out buyer couldn't perform, I was pretty frustrated with the whole contract of itself. I did a poor job reviewing it, but my agent didn't point out a couple pretty big ticket items that were included in that contract. And so I fired him this morning, and I'm gonna be placing that listing with somebody else. It was an uncomfortable conversation, but I think one that had to be had. And, you know, he asked me point blank, he says, What are you unhappy with the service? And I tell him, yeah, these are my issues that I'm having with it alone as independent issues, not a big deal, but kind of cumulatively, they cause me a lot of heartache. And the other thing I didn't realize is that I had signed a year long agreement with this listing agent, which goes against every fiber of my being. But again, it was something that I rushed and didn't do a good job looking at. So anytime you're signing a listing agreement with an agent, be very particular about the length of time in which that contract is enforced for.   Tom: I love these episodes, and kind of respect Atomy stuff, putting a lot of these learnings forward to limit people in the future for making them. So looking back retrospect when you initially vetted this agent, and we'll do another episode, you know, more specific on the agent side, but what would you have done differently? I mean, one, you mentioned the one year listing agreement, what else anything else you would have done to suss out this subpar?   Michael: Yeah, he was a recommendation from my property manager who I like quite a bit, and I was kind of looking to get it done pretty quick. So I said, Okay, sure. Yeah, we'll go with your guy. That sounds great. They've already got a pre existing relationship. I didn't think about this other group that I already had done a bunch of deals with, because my agent friend had ended up he had left that group. And so I said, Oh, well just use him for everything. And then he left the picture. So I didn't really have a good person to reach out to so this is a personal reference. Cool, just go that route. But absolutely, I should have interviewed some other folks. But I was looking to get it done too quickly. So didn't listen to my own advice. And yet again, it's come to bite me in the rear. So I don't know why I think that'll stop happening one day, it just clearly is it won't   Tom: Good. Take away. Good take away.   Michael: Yeah. What about you, Tom? What you got going on?   Tom: Oh, not a lot still waiting on this refi close at the Wheelock wine wine wine complaint complaints, snail mail, blah, blah, blah. I just listened to our last week's episode, kind of related kind of unrelated, we're going into another week of bad air and in California, these fires and my wife are playing around the idea of Oh, you know, what if we you know, live or move around a little bit and one idea remote real estate invested kind of relating is like what if we like bought a house in an area that we are bullish on investing, you know, bought one probably more of appreciation play in like a Raleigh or like a Columbia, South Carolina or, and we go and live in it for like six months or a year, rent our house here in California, and then come back to California. And we also have, you know, turn that other one into a rental. So playing around with some kind of like exotic owner occupied slash turned into a rental slash bounce around, we have a son right now and be fun to get a place that has a big yard to let him run around at least for a year in his life. And who knows, maybe just fall in love in Raleigh, it's probably unlikely, but it's not out of the realm of possibility of doing some exercise like that. So   Michael: Do it.   Emil: Tom, we had someone on the podcast who basically did this like not in as short of a timeframe, but moved from city to city picked up a rental house hack did live there, and then change it to a rental when he left that city. So not a bad strategy.   Michael: He just left this slug trail of rentals in his wake.   Tom: I love that idea. And it's like your cities are fun. Yeah, go from each one to one.   Michael: And not only that, but new cities are fun. And depending on the purchase price, too. It might never make sense as an investment property when purchased as an investment property. But if your interest rate is such that your your financing is such that it's so much cheaper, you may have just created the potential for a rental where there previously wasn't one.   Tom: Yeah, exactly. And I think that really drills The advantage of this kind of strategy is you're like you're going sub 3% on these like awesome fixed 30 year products and buying it as an owner occupied because that's what you're initially going to do. And then your slug trail just moves away. And then you still have the remnants of this really historically awesome financing. And a house that normally where you wouldn't be able get the cash flow since you're having such incredible rates. So I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. It's a pontificating.   Michael: Nice   Tom: thinking about it. Yeah. Anyway, that's my update.   Michael: And Emil?   Emil: An update for me. We put an offer on a four unit property yesterday in St. Louis, where I'm looking right now and it was priced really well it's priced under 100 K, which is really rare to see the neighborhood's okay. Probably like a two star neighborhood rating if we were to equate it on, like Roofstock scale. But 700 k newer mechanicals, right like new new h fac new water heater, new boilers. But the insides of these apartments are a little dilapidated. But that seemed like an easier first project and kind of like full gut rehab and like new mechanicals and everything, so it kind of seemed like it was it was gonna be the right property. We put an offer in yesterday. But the seller I got noticed today that seller went with a different offer. So onto the next one.   Michael: Are you going to put in a standing backup?   Emil: I don't even know what that is. So no.   Michael: You should put a standing backup offer is basically saying, hey, if that buyer can't perform, I'm willing to still buy it at your offer original offer, or some other offer. And so the seller knows that, hey, okay. I don't have to go call these for other people that also submit offers, I can go to Emil, because I know what his offer is. And it's still good on it.   Emil: Yeah, I should just talk about that. We just left it as let's keep our eye on this. And if it falls through, we'll go back. Yeah.   Michael: But the standing offer is nice, because it kind of separates you from any of the other people that are also doing that. And you're saying, Yes, I can perform. Yes, I will perform, should it become available.   Tom: Love that idea?   Emil: Is there any let's see, I find something else. And I get into offer on something like it's not like binding?   Michael: No, not by any means. Not by any means.   Emil: Well, then I have a nice action item after this episode. Thanks, Michael.   Michael: You're welcome man. And so kind of to Tom's question. What would you have done differently? Or if anything on that knowing what you know, now?   Emil: Nothing I think…   Michael: Perfect.   Emil: I made an offer where I was comfortable. I made an offer where I was comfortable and let the chips land where they, lie where they land? It takes 2 to tango? I don't know.   Michael: There is no crying in baseball.   Emil: So yeah, no, I felt good about it. It was a I hadn't made an offer in a while. So it's good to just at least start making some activity and start pushing through again. So   Tom: That's a funny little dopamine. I'm probably like six or eight months since I've made an offer. It's like, oh, man, we would feel pretty good right now submitting an offer.   Emil: It's also nerve wracking. And even though you've done it a bunch, right, when it's been a while and you're back at it, like you look at your spreadsheet numbers look good. Still. There's something about like, going and actually making an offer. That's a little nerve racking. I don't know,   Michael: I remember the first offer I made. I was like, I hope they wait so backwards. Yeah,   Tom: I know. Yeah. It's like, Oh, I'm a sucker if they you know, accept it right away. And I know, right? Did your work? You're okay. Right. What a funny psychology.   Emil: Yeah, of it all hundred percent.   Michael: Emil, I love that you wouldn't change anything. Because I think we talked about on previous episodes, we should be really looking to evaluate the decision making process, not the outcome. And so it clearly you did your homework, you felt good about it. And the fact that you wouldn't do anything differently means that I think you executed really well. And now it's out of your hands.   Emil: Thanks, man. Yeah, it wasn't like emotional at all, like, here's what I can do, here's what would be a good deal for me, and you lose enough offers. And it's just, it's on to the next. Right, so it's all part of it. So let's move on to the topic for this episode, which is how do you find and vet an insurance provider? And we're gonna start with when in the process? Do you go out and find insurance? Is it before you make offers is it during escrow, I can actually leave this one off, I don't have a ton to add to this episode, not my area of specialty, but I can add to this one. So for me in the past, I have typically looked for insurance once I have a property under escrow, that's when I'm going out and looking for insurance. I don't really do any upfront before I go and buy any properties. What are you guys?   Tom: Yeah, so the first thing I'll do is get kind of guidelines on estimating how much insurance is going to be. And I would just put into two camps like a property is either in a zone where I'm going to have to pay extra because maybe it's a hurricane or tornado or or it's not, it's an it's an area that's relatively low. So just for like proforma purposes, have a rough idea of where I'm going to be paying for insurance. And this can be talking to other investors, forums, whatnot, and actually selecting an insurance provider. Oftentimes, I'd say your first deal is like, when you add extra properties, a lot of times you're using a similar and maybe there might be some cases where you're not, but I agree with Emil, and that it's something that I won't spend a lot of Midnight Oil, there probably is some improvements you can get on pricing and going through a lot of different ones, but it's kind of similar pricing, there's not going to be just these wild swings, unless in some areas where there is like hurricane stuff, but generally speaking, it's a pretty commodity. So it's it's similar answer to him, you know, we're all get something in escrow. And specifically, I already have insurance providers that I like, just layer right on top, Michael?   Michael: Yeah, perfect. I'm pretty similar. I'm also waiting, I think partially because it's such an like, I'm not gonna say easy task, but it's a fairly quick task to have done. This isn't a very long process. So I can be on the phone with an insurance rep in the morning and have a quote by the afternoon and so it's not something that takes a long time that they need a lot of documentation for and you also need to have some specific property information, some property specific information, to answer some of the questions to get an accurate quote, like, what is the year of the roof? What is the year of some of the mechanicals? When was the property last rehab. So if you don't know any of those things about a property, it's tough to get an accurate quote for. But Tom, I'm actually going to disagree with you on the commoditization of insurance. I think that there are some vastly different rates out there from different carriers. And so I think it's really important to kind of compare and contrast them, I was chatting with my commercial insurance broker. And he was telling me that if we had to go place my current portfolio with a different carrier, it would probably be about a $15,000, delta in coverage. And for like, less coverage, for less good, I guess that's a, that's a phrase coverage. So I think that there is a significant difference between carriers. And of course, there's a large portfolio. So those numbers are magnified. But even on single family homes on single units, or duplexes, there are carriers that do this stuff really well, and that are hungry for growth. And so they're going to be priced really competitively. There are other companies that are not looking to grow are not interested in that risk, like a property or a certain style of insurance is called a risk. They're not interested in that. And so they're going to price it because they don't want it but they're happy to take your money if you're willing to give it to them. So kind of like general contractors, if they're really busy, they're gonna throw out a ridiculous high bid, because they don't want the work. But they're happy to do it for that price. Same thing with insurance carriers. So I would definitely look to interview several different and get several different quotes. And we're going to talk here on this episode about how to do that effectively here in just a little bit. I   Tom: I have no come back. I think you're right. I mean that in the sense that like once you have a carrier that you like, it's pretty plug and play. But some of the other like big moving variables is like deductible amounts, which we'll talk about a little bit more is there can be some weirdness in the way that they're applied. For example, if the premises occupied versus vacant, we were actually talking about before the episode that I probably need to change my insurance on just looking to improve it and that I haven't changed in a while or shopped around and probably some shekels to save and some liability to limit But anyways, Michael, good challenge, and you win. All right.   Michael: I've won the day.   Tom: It was a test and you pass.   Emil: Tom, you bring up something good that I forgot to mention is like getting an estimate first, obviously, like in order to make an offer, you should not like have a an assumption for what his insurance is going to be ballpark estimate. So that is definitely a good point in like putting a ballpark. And I think you mentioned a couple ways to find that. So good point.   Michael: Yeah, just to piggyback on that to Emil, Tom, you bring up an amazing point that there are these outside coverages that are not part of a standard insurance policy. And for everybody listening, those are typically going to be flood, and earthquake are going to be two separate policies that are not going to be covered on your standard policy. So if you are purchasing a property in a flood zone, or in an earthquake zone, be aware of that. And that can be found out by simple search, you know, flood zones in this area, or earthquake zones in this area. And if you plan on purchasing those insurances, there's additional costs there. And most lenders are going to require that you're going to carry flood insurance, they are not going to require you to carry earthquake insurance for the most part. And so talk with your lender about what it is that they're looking for. And in coverage. So hurricanes kind of tricky, because the way that the insurance works is typically based on the initiating events. And so if there's a flood, if the property receives water damage, as a result of the waters coming from the ground, they might not cover that could be called considered a flood. But if you left the window open, and then the rain got in, I don't know, I think it's important to make that as is their separate hurricane insurance?   Tom: I believe there is and I think it's also extremely expensive. I remember a couple of years ago, Roofstock He was like a different investor that I knew there was flooding, and they didn't have flood insurance. And the house happened to get hit by a tree. That was I don't know if it was moved by the flood or whatnot. But they were able to argue that it's the tree that hit it. Like it wasn't the flood, it wasn't the flood, they're able to collect on their policy. And I mean, the water I think was going to cause you know, massive trouble for the house. But since the house got hit by a tree, they are able to be okay and collecting insurance to fix the property. But if it had not, it's like a funny thing. If there's like disasters, you're just like rooting for certain things to happen. You know, to be able for your insurance policy.   Michael: We always used to joke, you know, in the business with a lot of clients and they're like, man, I don't want to put sprinklers in my building because I want the thing to burn down because it's like guys, like don't tell me this. I'm the wrong person to be having this conversation with but it's pretty funny. I get what you're saying.   Tom: And also just you know, we're not taking lightly like the really tragic stuff with this happens with some people with these workings but it's just crazy with insurance. How one little way of your house getting damaged versus another if the waters is running into it. Oh no, they're not going to cover that. Oh, with a tree, wacks it. Oh, there you go. Now you get full coverage. The other than Sandy is the right word, but just kind of weirdness of it all.   Michael: Yeah. So I think this begs the issue of go talk to your insurance rep, whoever that might be, and look to get a very clear understanding of what is covered, and what is not, especially based on the zone that you're in. And so be armed with that information, Hurricane zone, flood zone, earthquake zone, as you are going to look to get quotes,   Tom: I think, well, this is an episode like just on floods and hurricanes will bring someone in FEMA or something. So anyways, future episode, let's we'll continue on.   Emil: Alright, so let's segue into how do we actually go out and source different insurance providers wants to take first crack at that?   Michael: The interwebs. I like online reviews and searches of different carriers and providers. And a distinction I think that we should make here is the difference between an insurance carrier or an insurance agent, or an insurance representative or an insurance broker. So a broker is kind of like a mortgage broker, and that they might not work for a specific company, they'll go out and shop the market and find a good product for you. Again, just like a mortgage broker would, and insurance agents often will work for an insurance broker. And so they're just kind of like a real estate agent. And so those can just typically be employees of the brokerage. And so but you can also have direct agents that work for a carrier themselves, like if you call up State Farm, you're going to talk to an insurance agent, but they're only going to be able to sell you State Farm Insurance. Now, they might be able to sell you something else if you don't fit into their program. But traditionally, they are going to try to place you into the State Farm program. So you can have agents that are independent, you can have agents that are work for specific companies, and go back all of our listeners to go back and listen to the insurance episode we had Nick Aube on. He's an insurance broker, I think is what the term he coined himself. And that is Episode 26, where we talk about insurance and insurance needs of investors with Nick Aube. So he talks about the differences in insurances and some terminology there. But so it's I think it's hard to make that distinction. And understand when you're calling someone, what type of insurance they are going to be looking to sell to you, whether it's direct from that company, or it's they're going to go out and shop the market on your behalf. So all that being said, if you already own a property, if you own your primary, you can just start with the insurer of your primary, if you're satisfied with that insurance, just like for lenders, if you already have a preexisting relationship, wherever you do your banking, you can work reach out to those lenders to start, then online reviews are really good for folks both of brokerages, as well as companies specifically, but also take that with a grain of salt, because typically the people that are leaving reviews are the unsatisfied ones, the ones that are really pissed off. So again, take it with a grain of salt, but asking for referrals and references from online forums from you know, Bigger Pockets. Or if you're in the Roofstock Academy, we've got a whole list of vendors that we're putting together for everyone to utilize. So ask people that you know that have done what you're looking to do who they've used. Wow, rant over. Sorry, guys.   Tom: I'm going to synthesize the rant a little bit of the way that I think about it, I would think about this for any type of vendor that I'm adding at the top of the hierarchy would be personal references, you know, not the end all be all, but definitely my favorite way of referencing any type of vendor insurance. The second layer down would be professional references. So if I'm working with a lender that I like, you know, hey, do you guys have any authors and you know, whatever, an agent or a property manager, that would be kind of a tier two way of sourcing a level three would be forum so our friends at bigger pockets have awesome discussion board. Roofstock Academy has a private Slack channel, the people are popping in recommendations and experiences all the time. And then lastly, at the bottom would just be the the old Google search. So to paraphrase personal references, professional references, online forums, and then general research.   Emil: Awesome. We've mentioned it I think on the last episode, asked the other people on your team for references for other people on your team. So ask your property manager for an agent or insurance or lenders so you can you can always ask the members of your team if they have any references, if you don't know any other investors in that area.   Tom: Yeah. And on that team, like specifically, your lenders often working fairly close within their network. They have insurance anyways. Sorry, go ahead.   Michael: I just want to take a moment to address everyone talks about the team so often, like us included, and I think I just want to put it out there for everybody listening in case they don't know. This is like a very informal thing. It's like my team has jerseys with the team name on it.   Emil: You don't? My team, we all have the same jerseys. Yeah, we have our nicknames on them!   Michael: Oh dude, I am severely lacking. I just think it's so funny because we always hear about the team. And when I first started investing, I was like God, like, I don't have money to pay my team players. I don't understand, but it's just a very informal relationship. I use the same lender as my I can there on the team, I use an agent, I can pick up the phone, and they'll answer Oh, hey, Michael, how's it going? If that's the relationship you have, that's probably someone that's on your quote unquote, team. And so I just don't want people getting bogged down with, oh, I have this formal relationship. And I interviewed this person. And I asked them formally, would you like to be on my team? It's, it's not like that. So for anybody listening that thought that we can just clear that up and hopefully ease a little bit of heartache.   Emil: It's a good point.   Michael: Thank you.   Emil: All right, let's keep it moving. So the next part that we want to dissect is, what are the questions you should ask, as you're vetting these different insurance providers to make sure you're getting good insurance? And that you're covered as much as you need? Do you guys have any tips here? For our listeners?   Tom: Sure. Sure. Sure. So in the same way that I would categorize different lead sources, I'll categorize the high level types of questions that will ask the lender, I'll ask questions about the business, you know, how long they've been? Do they have a lot of different branches? Like at what areas? Do they do insurance in? Not every insurance company will do insurance everywhere. Do they work with a lot of investors? And then maybe go into some of the specific product details? What type of properties do they provide insurance on? Like, is it do they do like multifamily, small apartments? SFR? Maybe like a makeup of their typical type of customer? Like, are they doing a lot of work with investors, I would also ask questions around communication. So you know, who's the main point of contact? What's the best way to get a hold of them? And then get into the money related question, I'm stealing all the content from Michael. So I'm sure. Just also Michael's way more knowledgeable on this stuff. So he's going to have an easier time coming in and layering in extra good nuggets. So my other category would be around rates, and criteria and performance. So do they have various rates as it relates to deductibles? And do how do they value the house? Is it replacement value as an actual cash value? Do they have any discounts as it relates to doing in bulk, or, you know, adding on other products, and then the process of how claims are handled? So Michael, I'm gonna let you keep running with it before I pick all the good stuff. But even though you are gonna have good stuff, no matter what.   Michael: I think, a super good outline an overview. So I think it's also important to understand again, who you're speaking to, and are they a direct writer? I mean, are you talking to like a State Farm type of agent? Are you talking to a broker who can shop the market, they're likely not going to be able to answer these questions. If if they're kind of a broker, you're gonna have to wait until they get a quote, for a specific carrier to start talking about some of these companies specific questions, but they could tell you absolutely, who they work with a lot. And something that I've realized after dealing with a couple outrageous claims is, it's really important to ask them if they're a broker, and they give you a quote for a specific insurance company, how much of their business as a brokerage comes from that one insurance company, because what I found is that there are agents that will favor insurance companies, because they're kind of in cahoots, so to speak. And so they'll want to write a lot of business with this carrier, because the carrier will give them good commissions. And so it might not necessarily be the best product for you, it might be the best product that they have available through that brokerage, but it might not be a good fit. And so you want to talk to that's why again, can't over stress this enough, you want to talk to multiple agents, multiple brokerages and see what insurance companies different brokerages have available to them, because some brokers don't even have certain carriers that they can't write with. And so getting an idea of who they even are eligible to place you with is going to be very helpful, in addition to understanding who the best carriers are for investors in the area for your specific kind of risk. So if you have a single family home, go look to understand that market who's writing the best single family home policies out there, and then go look to find a broker that can write with them, or see if they'll write direct and you can call the company directly. Ask them about what their insurance rating is, you know, once we get to the company level, ask there's a rating system out there best and then a&m, I think it's Standard and Poor's, I think are all rating agencies. And so they're going to have a letter grade associated with them as a carrier. And so we're gonna want to understand just what that rating is. And then of course, asking, like Tom mentioned about discounts a big one and a common one is a multi policy discount. So if you have multiple policies, whether that be your auto your home, multiple investment properties with them, that can be great to ask about and then asking about a discount for years in which you are claim free can also be a nice one like All State, I think is someone that does that for auto insurance. Don't quote me on that, but I think I've seen their advertising on that. So asking about what discounts you're eligible for what discounts exist, and then asking about if they're, if you're able to grow with them with that same insurance company, I think are always to position yourself to win.   Tom: Hey, Michael, for those rates do want to do a quick run through of like key decisions just talking very quickly about deductibles and replacement value. And, and I'm just looking at a spreadsheet of different rates, like what are those mean?   Michael: Yeah, absolutely, it's a really good question. So the deductible is the amount of money that you have to pay as an owner out of pocket before the insurance will come into effect. So let's say I have a 20 $500 deductible and a tree falls on my house and causes $5,000 in damage. Well, if that's a covered loss, I can submit a claim to the insurance company and they'll come out. And they'll say, Okay, yeah, it's $5,000 claim, I get the bid to have the work done to repair the damage. If it's $5,000, I'm on the hook for the first 2500. So the insurance company is going to cut me a check for the second 2500. So changing the deductible changes the amount of we call it in house risk that someone is taking on themselves. So if I lowered that deductible to $1,000, I would pay the first thousand and the insurance company would pay the next four, again, in that $5,000 damage example. And so for that lower deductible, I'm probably going to be paying a higher premium. And a premium is just the annual cost of the insurance that I pay to the insurance company or carrier. So lower deductible, higher premiums, higher deductible, lower premiums, but I would say look very closely at the difference in premium for a significant change in deductible. So I found, for example, that, you know, changing my deductible from 1000 to 2500, only saved me like 60 bucks on my annual premium in one example. And so it wasn't worth it for me to take on the extra 2500 in in house risk for 60 dollar savings a year. If we do the payback time on that, let's just see run at 1500 divided by 60 bucks, that's 25 years to get that premium savings back to offset the extra risk that I'd be taking in house. And that's a personal decision that every investor is going to look to make about Okay, how much risk Am I willing to take on personally and what deductible makes sense for me. Then the replacement value versus actual cash value? These are two different types of policies. And so you want to look to understand, like you mentioned, Tom, what type of policy Am I being quoted is the replacement value and actual cash value. These are often seen as acronyms on the policy as RC for replacement cost, or ACV, which is actual cash value. And so most insurance companies, for the vast majority of single family homes out there, you're going to see a replacement cost or replacement value policy. But in a lot of commercial buildings or bigger buildings or older properties, they're only willing to write an actual cash value policy or an ACV policy, because it's just so expensive to insure the building to replace it like for like, because it's older construction typically is going to be beefier and more components. So it's just more expensive to insure. So they'll insure for an actual cash value, which is basically accounting for depreciation of the structure itself. And so the dollar amount of an ACV policy versus an RC policies typically going to be less. And so talk to your insurance agent or provider about what the difference is in those policies mean for you as an owner when it comes time to file a claim or for dealing with the claim, because they are vastly, vastly different.   Emil: Dang!   Tom: Great, great overview I dig it, I was looking through on some of my policies that I have that I may be changing out in the not too not too distant future is my deductible moves depending if the property is occupied or vacant. And Michael is doing give me a little bit of coaching is asking me, Hey, is that does that start right away? Or is there a grace period from the time that a vacates and it's, you know, my answer was? No, it starts right away. And it's the trigger to go back and get some updates. You know, a cool thing about insurance policy is I think we might have talked about it, maybe last episode is that it's pretty easy to change out in that unlike other types of these relationships, like a lender, you can basically sign an insurance policy and at any point in time change that and Michael, please correct me if I'm butchering that explanation, and word it better go.   Tom: No you're spot on. It's just a it's a very fluid policy and agreement in that if you are unhappy or you want to change your policy mid year, they'll refund you the prorated amount. But depending on how you pay if you pay in full, you pay the full premium at day one, you decide that you want to change carriers six months down the road, you'll get refunded that six month premium payment, and then you can go place new insurance. Now you want to be very careful on the timing of this such that you don't have any insurance lapse because Heaven forbid you're canceling your insurance on a Monday, and then you place new insurance on a Wednesday. Murphy's law says that something's going to happen on that Tuesday, right there's gonna be a fire tree or something. So make sure that you don't have any lapse in coverage. And so be very communicative with the old carrier and the new carrier about when you want to bind that policy and having them seamlessly transition is really important. Same thing for your lender, your lender is going to require notification that you're changing, the insurance companies will take care of that notification. But you really, really, really, really, really want to make sure that you're having lapses in coverage. And so be overly communicative with all the parties involved, about the dates and timing of when that change is going to happen.   Tom: And that feature of being able to change it out, it puts less pressure on me to find the perfect policy up front, like, oh, plug something in that is good, like not letting great get in the way, if I find a house that I want to buy, great, awesome, move forward. And I know that I want to tease out, you know, getting that best rate and best coverage, that's something I can do later, I don't have to stress myself out and making sure, but great be the enemy of good on that initial coverage.   Michael: Yeah, it's a super good point, I just changed up my insurance program for all my California properties. midterm, I said I was getting quotes for renewal. And that's something you'll get every year, the insurance company will send you out a renewal package, which basically has Okay, this is what your new rates and new coverages look like. And those will tend to go up over time, just because of inflation, cost of materials goes up. And so you'll get the needed coverage will also go up. And then of course, the premium that you're paying will also increase. And so I was just really dissatisfied with the agency that I was working with who had the policies in place, as well as the coverages from the carrier's themselves. So I called up a good buddy of mine who's an agent, and I said, Hey, quote this for me, and he got me some really competitive quotes. And so I moved everything over to him. And now I'm getting refunds from those carriers because I cancelled mid mid term. So don't be afraid to quote unquote, fire your agent or fire that insurance company if you're not getting the service or the coverage that you feel you need are entitled to. And again, remember these folks work for you. And they are in business to pay claims. That's an insurance company's one job. And if they are unable to do that, well, well, then why would you be working with them?   Emil: And so on that note, what are some red flags people should be on the lookout for, as they're vetting different insurance providers? And you guys might have already mentioned them, but maybe just summarizing them here.   Michael: Yep, poor claims handling record, I think for me is is a big one, if you have to fight tooth and nail with your insurance company to get paid out on a claim, it's not worth the extra savings that you might see on your premium.   Emil: How do you find that out before it's too late, though, online reviews, and again, kind of taking those with a grain of salt. But when they're talking about claims, specifically, I think that's one that we can look at. And also talk to the agent or carrier about what their claims handling process looks like. And what their what their rating is what their insurance rating is, with, with some of the rating companies out there. They should be touting their claims handling record, if they're a great carrier. And I'm personally having been through some awful claims and happy and willing to pay more for that coverage. Because I know it's going to get handled, not if but when I have a claim.   Tom: It's great point I like that. I would ask about the renewal process. And I went through renewal a little bit ago just kind of accepting what they what they're sending back, which his answer is I'm gonna go be a little more proactive on this, you know, went through the process, there was like three different websites like one for paying one for site, it was super kluge. I went through this process, I paid them for all different properties that I have. And then I start getting notifications from my lender that my insurance expired and that they have paid for lender provided insurance because insurance companies will do that. But the problem when insurance companies do that is they're they're basically going to be like not a good shopper at all, and just give you very expensive insurance.   Michael: So wait, Tom, do you mean that the lender will do that the lender will go out and buy insurance because…   Tom: The lender buys insurance.   Michael: Because you said insurance companies will do that.   Tom: Sorry, lender. Thank you, thank you for correcting me. So the lender, they'll do lender will purchase insurance on your behalf and just hold the payments in escrow. So I, this happened to me just within the last few weeks where I you know renewed my insurance policy, which is an okay policy, and then I get notification from my lender that they're going to shop for insurance like there were some dropping the ball and communication. And at that same time my insurance provider mailed me back a check for the amount that I had paid to renew my insurance, and it's just a quagmire, just a little bit of a mess right now, which is that is on my list of things to do is clean up that mess. So that the renewal process just making sure like I'll probably put in like a negative review, just in this has been just such a clunky process. So asking him about the process of renewal and looking at the new rates and making sure that is a smooth process. So that would be mine. And then also I mentioned before looking at moving deductible rates like I don't like that is something I didn't look into when initially selecting the provider. So you know, having someone you can kind of who is knowledgeable in this space like Michael is a great example to kind of bounce these ideas off of is a helpful resource to have.   Michael: And something else I would look for too is is the person you're speaking with, either at the company direct the carrier directly or broker willing to educate you and kind of hold your hand through the process if you're not super familiar with insurance, because I think it's not something that's taught in school, you don't learn about it. We covered you know quite a bit in the academy about some things to look out for. It's some questions to ask to arm you to go have those intelligent conversations. But I would argue that an agent's job is split half between education and half insurance placement. And if they're not willing to take the time and walk you through and talk to you about some of the coverages that you're looking that you should be considering or looking for. That's kind of a red flag for me. And I've had conversations with agents. And this isn't me tooting my own horn, but I've structured some of the policies in certain ways. And they're like, Oh, well, it's a really good idea. And I'm like, you should be telling me what the good ideas are. Why am I coming to you with that, like you do this for a living? So I would say, you know, look to find someone who's knowledgeable and who's willing to walk you through this process.   Tom: When you get a quote, Michael, you asked them for like three different versions, like on like, okay, a 2000, and 1500 and a 5000? Is that like, pretty standard practice?   Michael: Yeah, exactly. And so I'll build out a skeleton quote of what I want as kind of a minimum, I'll send it to them. So it's not a back and forth quoting thing, we'll look to get a kind of massage to where I want it to be. And then yeah, I'll do exactly that. I'll have the lowest deductible, your next highest and the next highest, just to see what the difference in premium is. And then of course, we can look to massage, different line item coverages at different values, if they are movable, to see how the premium gets affected, because you want to look to see what levers are going to have the biggest impact. And I think so often, unfortunately, deductible isn't one of them. It's typically the underlying coverages themselves that are going to have some of the biggest impact.   Tom: Love it.   Emil: Great advice. All right, guys. Lots of good information here. I think it's a good spot for us to wrap this episode up. What do you guys think?   Michael: Totally. I think if anything, you know, wasn't making sense. Please go back, give it a read. Listen, there's a lot of stuff in there. And so you know, take notes, listen to it again. And don't hesitate with any questions for your agent for your carrier. Again, they should be playing an educator role.   Emil: Not to make this sound too much of an ad but as always, there's only so much we can cover in a 45 minute or one hour episode. And Roofstock Academy which is our coaching and training program for investors can get a lot of your personal questions answered. Talk to Tom, Michael, myself, other investors on like really specific situations. So feel like you need more help, or just want to, you know, improve your real estate investing, go check out RoofstockAcademy.com. And, as always, make sure you guys subscribe, leave us a review. Let us know what you think of these episodes and we'll catch you on the next one. Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.   Tom: Happy investing.    

FITNESS IS THE KEY INGREDIENT TO FIGHT ADDICTION!   Struggling to be happy in recovery? Are you sick of trying everything to escape addiction only to realize it's not sustainable?    Then you will need to listen to this episode with Celebrity Chef and Fitness Personality, Michael Chernow!   “The business of business is relationships, and the foundation of relationships is trust, because I believe that. I say that in business, but it's also just in general. The business of happiness is relationships and the foundation of relationships is trust.”- Michael Chernow With that quote alone, you can already say that there are lots of things you can learn from my guest today. He is Michael Chernow --  a chef, entrepreneur. He is the founder of Seamore, co-founder of The Meatball Shop, and co-founder of WellWell. He's quite literally the modern-day renaissance man. But what I love most about him is he's really into fitness, and fitness helped to save his life from the depths of addiction, and which we will definitely get into.   How is Michael's life adjusted since this whole COVID thing hit?   Instead of upgrading their apartment when they had their second child, they bought a place out of the city which is their best decision because they are staying there for two and a half months now. Their boys are enjoying their life out of the city.   Unfortunately, his grandfather, 98, contracted the virus on Friday of last week in his nursing home. He has lived a very fruitful life. It's a shame that this is potentially what could be the end for him, and Michael's family sort of really bummed out about that.   However, Michael is a positive optimist, he always finds the silver lining in everything and he also tries to make lemonade whenever he sees lemons and at this time, he's actually out there just trying to make some lemonade.   Michael is greatly inspired by his grandfather because he absolutely lived a wonderful life -- born in 1919, survived the 20s Great Depression, fought World War 2, created businesses, and failed at some businesses. His grandfather is now 98 years old, and his number one priority was great relationships with people and he had an amazing network of friends.   For Michael, we all need to reset and pump the brakes. He has done a lot in the last 10 years and he admits that it hasn't been the healthiest.    He is just extreme in anything he does. He was an “addict.” When it comes to business and work, he's been into the grindstone non-stop for the last 11 years and this time has forced him to slow down, to not beat himself up, for not producing an enormous amount of shit every day, and to slow down to hold his son for more than two minutes.   For Michael, what is life all about? It's ultimately about love. That human beings were put on the planet to love and be loved at the end of the day.   In his own experience, he drank and did drugs because he wanted to be loved, and learn how to love himself and, and in his own perspective, everything that we do at the core of motivation or lack of motivation is the desire to love and be loved.   How did Michael get out of doing drugs and drinking?   He fell in love with escapism. At an early age, he fell in love with it. He started working in restaurants at 13. He worked in the night and he was perfect for it. There were a bunch of years where it was just super fun for him. But suddenly, all of the fun stopped and he started drinking and partying. His dad passed away when he was 20. Michael was not on good terms with his father, and he always used that as a grand excuse to just take it even further.   From 20 to 23, he was on a death march, but he still always had a job and always kept his job in a restaurant or nightclub.    The last few years were pretty dark for him. He stopped enjoying it, and it became just like part of his routine. There were moments like he just wanted to die. He couldn't believe that he found myself back there again, after promising not to do it again.   He clearly remembers catching a glimpse of himself in the mirror saying, “Man, I hate you more than anything on the planet.”   He wanted to die, and luckily, he didn't kill himself. He woke up 16 hours later and he had locked himself in his room and people thought he had actually died.   His boss, Frank, said, “I love you to death, man. I do. I love you to death but I can't watch you kill yourself. You're fired.”   Michael really loves his job so he begged for it and his boss said, “I can't give you your job [bar managing] anymore. I just can't put you behind the bar. But if you get sober, if you actually get sober, and you come to work at eight o'clock in the morning, and you clean the restaurant with the porters for 30 days, I'll consider giving you your job back.”   So Michael did all of it. He walked into a room of people that took him in like a brother, and they understood each other.   Then a couple of guys from that group knew that he had like a little bit of a aggressive sort of anger components, and they dragged him into a Muay Thai gym, and they said, “This is where you're going to wake up, where you're going to have breakfast, you're going to come meet with us and hang with us for about an hour. And then you're going to go over to the gym and train. And then you're going to go home and take a nap. And then you're going to go to work. And you're going to eat chicken and broccoli.”   He just can't live like that anymore.    And very quickly, he started to discover who he was. And it wasn't the guy that was abusing himself constantly.   What helped Michael to reestablish commitment to loving himself on a daily basis? It was absolutely Muay Thai and discipline of exercising. He owes his life to that.   Tune in to this episode to learn more about how he became who he is now. A lot of people can surely relate and will be inspired and motivated to keep on moving forward in life.   Some words of wisdom from Michael: Just do what you say you're going to do. And that's the way you get it. There's a big difference between listening and waiting to speak. You can't learn without listening. You might be able to learn a little bit by seeing something, but the actual long term growth and knowledge come through listening. The less you say, the better off you are when it comes to timing. You don't always have to be hurt. The more you listen, the stronger you'll be in life.   Connect with Michael Chernow:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michaelchernow/ Website: https://michaelchernow.com/ Podcast: Born or Made Podcast Connect with Doug Instagram: @dougbopst Facebook: Doug Bopst Website: www.dougbopst.com/gift   More on Earth Echo Foods/Cacao Bliss: www.earthechofoods.com/dougbopst Use Promo code "Doug" at checkout to receive 15% off your order  

So as we all know by now, the Big Ten will not be playing football this fall (99% positive as of this writing). So Michael and Ben want to get back to what they love, which is talking football and sports gambling. And damnit, that's what they will do! Accordingly so, the former Bleav in Big Ten Bets is now Bleav in NFL Bets. The guys look at some future odds for the 2020 NFL season and get you excited for the NFL to start in less than a week now!!

We had the pleasure of interviewing Karl Michael over Zoom video! “If there’s one thing you need to know about me,” says Karl Michael, “it’s that I never give up. Ever. I’m as persistent as it gets.”If Michael’s improbable life story isn’t proof enough of that, just take a listen to his extraordinary new single, “Highs And The Lows.” Stirring and soulful, the track showcases the British-born songwriter’s remarkable gifts as both a craftsman and a performer, mixing addictive hooks and slick, mesmerizing production with soaring vocals and deep, probing lyrics. Recorded in Michael’s newly-adopted hometown of Nashville, TN, it’s a mature, philosophical slice of R&B-tinged pop, one that takes stock of the rocky path that’s brought him from the depths of despair to the heights of success and right back down again more times than he cares to count. See, Michael’s already written with some of the biggest names in music and penned massive hits for plenty of other artists, but now, he’s finally ready to do it for himself, and the result is some of the most honest, vulnerable, and captivating material he’s ever created.“I hope my career can serve as an example,” Michael says. “I truly believe that anything’s possible if you want it bad enough and you’re willing to put in the work.”Growing up in a rough neighborhood, Michael relied on that resilience to beat the odds and break from the cycle of crime and poverty that surrounded him. At 16, he struck out on his own for Nashville, where a family friend had offered to help him get a fresh start. When he landed in the States, though, Michael found himself singled out by a customs officer who was suspicious of his status as an unaccompanied minor. Despite possessing the appropriate paperwork, he was detained, questioned for more than five hours, and eventually handcuffed and forcibly sent back to England.“I couldn’t believe it,” Michael says. “I was devastated. But I wasn’t going to let it stop me.”Back in Britain, Michael picked up a job working at McDonalds to make ends meet while he reassessed his future. Obsessed with films and movie stars, he’d always dreamed of becoming an actor, and when a friend tipped him off about open auditions at the Midlands Academy of Dance and Drama, it seemed like a golden ticket.“I had no training in the arts whatsoever, and I certainly didn’t have the money for school, but I went and auditioned anyway,” Michael remembers. “They wanted to see some acting, so I did a scene. They wanted me to dance, so I did the worm. They asked me to sing, so I walked over to the window, spit out my gum, and sang them a tune. When I opened my eyes, I had a full ride scholarship.”As a youngster, Michael hadn’t been exposed to a whole lot of music, but at school, it became his singular obsession. He fell in love with rap and grime and soul and R&B, and he supplemented his natural gifts with a fierce work ethic. As much as he loved performing, though, he found the school to be an imperfect fit (he remembers some of the more well-off students mocking him for having to work part-time at the local co-op), and so, after six months, he set out on his own again.Michael didn’t realize it at the time, but he was about to begin a long, strange odyssey through all the promises and pitfalls the music industry had to offer. Over the course of the next decade, he would land not one, but ​two major label record deals, only to watch them both fall apart before they could even get off the ground. He would make more money than he’d ever seen in his life, only to wind up broke again, sharing a cramped one-room apartment with a sibling while tending bar and handing out flyers to pay the rent. And he would become a star on one of the most popular singing shows on UK television, only to find that the success left him feeling lonelier and more depressed than ever before.“At the end of the day,” Michael explains, “being in some label-made band or singing someone else’s songs on TV, that’s just not who I was. I realized I had to be true to myself as an artist and a songwriter .”So Michael returned to the studio, where he continued to collaborate on a variety of projects while he plotted his next moves. Some of his tunes became major hits for other artists—“Can We Dance,” which he wrote with Bruno Mars, racked up more than 81 million streams on Spotify for The Vamps, while “Beautiful Me” amassed more than 16 million plays on YouTube for Dappy—but all the while, he knew he belonged onstage himself, and when he landed a deal with global publishing powerhouse Primary Wave, he leapt at the chance to finally get to Nashville.“Nashville absolutely saved me,” says Michael. “Everything about the place was so inspiring to me as a songwriter, and every time I had to leave, I was plotting how I could make it back as soon as possible.”It was on one of those trips to Nashville, which Michael now calls home, that he began penning material for himself, writing a series of intoxicating singles (starting with “Highs And The Lows”) that would land him his first record deal as a solo artist, this time with breakout label Riser House. Recorded with all-star producers Jon Levine (Dua Lipa, Alessia Cara) and Scott Spock (Rihanna, Britney Spears), the new tunes were undeniable pop gems, hinting at everything from James Arthur and Musiq Soulchild to Maroon 5 and Sam Smith as they reflected on the emotional rollercoaster of Michael’s personal and professional life. The minimalist “Wait A Minute,” for instance, grapples with the last gasps of a crumbling relationship, while the rousing “Beautiful Creature” celebrates the power of love in all its forms, and the throbbing “Explicit” and funky “Tunnel Vision” playfully navigate the minefields lust and desire. Each could be a radio smash on its own, but taken as a collection, they reveal the evolution of an artist who continues to grow stronger and more intuitive with each and every song he writes.“I’ve given other people hits,” Michael says matter-of-factly, “but it’s my turn now.” Persistence, it seems, pays off.We want to hear from you! Please email Tera@BringinitBackwards.com.www.BringinitBackwards.comAmerican Songwriter Podcast Network#podcast #interview #bringinbackpod  #foryou #foryoupage #stayhome #togetherathome #zoom #aspn #americansongwriter #americansongwriterpodcastnetwork

Today, we're digging in to the little known origins of regenerative agriculture, a conservation approach to farming and raising animals that focuses on soil health, biodiversity, improving the water cycle, and resilience to climate change. My guest today is Dr. Michael Kotutwa Johnson, a 450th generation Hopi farmer in the dry lands of Arizona and a research associate with the Native American Agriculture Fund. So to begin, can you help our listeners understand the Hopi people's theological and cultural grounding in what's now called regenerative agriculture? When we came here over two millennia ago, we were just given what we call this covenant. We'd be allowed to stay here, but it all would be based upon our faith. We have to have faith in everything we do. And if you were to come out to Hopi, you could understand how difficult it would be to live here and to actually grow things like corn and beans and melons and squash. Our belief system is tied directly to our agriculture. They support each other 100%. So one without the other, we wouldn't be as sustainable. So some people often ask me, "What is the reason your agricultural system is so resilient?" And I say, "Because it's based upon our faith, and it's based upon our ceremonial cycle." And so when you combine those two, you have pretty much a perfect match. And so that's how we look at things. So I'm assuming the faith dictates a series of practices that are what make the system resilient, is that right? It's not so much the ceremonial practices or the concept of faith, but it's just actually doing something when you do not know what your results are going to be. For example, like in 2018 we were going to have a drought, and we could tell that by just looking at some of our biological indicators. But a lot of us planted any way. We didn't plant our whole entire fields, but we planted anyway because we knew that we must do that because that's what our faith tells us to do. It says that we must plant every year, and so that's what we did. Yeah. Such an interesting story. So Michael, you studied conventional agriculture at Cornell University, then earned a master's degree in public policy from Pepperdine, and ultimately a doctorate in natural resources from the University of Arizona. And I understand that you've experienced some cultural dissonance as you pursued the doctorate in conventional agriculture techniques that heightened your appreciation for the practices and food ways of your people. Can you say a little bit more about that? Well, I think it was mainly the fact that everything that's based upon conventional agriculture is geared towards economics. I mean, there's really no way, once the farmer buys into this system, that they have no clear way of getting out, or even their profit margin is so slim. And so every little input they have is costly to the environment. For example, the USDA market system is based upon higher yields, and to create higher yields, you need to have more efficiency. And by more efficiency, you need to start to use all these things that the seed companies and the chemical companies give you, and that means things like herbicides, pesticides. And unfortunately it just drains off into the environment and drains off into the waterways. My cultural dissonance came into thinking that we don't raise things out here for economics. We raise them for sustenance. It's small farming, subsistence farming. And so that's how come I was kind of disillusioned by what I saw. And I'd say we don't have that great burden that the American farmer has. And it's unfortunate because that burden is also caused psychologically. Just recently in this 2018 farm bill, there was money put aside for to prevent suicides that are happening in the Midwest because when people lose their farm, they feel like they lose their life, and that's just a very unfortunate situation. At our place, at Hopi, our psychological wellbeing is kind of built into our agricultural system in many ways. For an example, one time I was up plastering the walls in my beautiful Hopi sandstone house, and an elderly gentleman came by and he said, "Did you put seeds in the plaster? It's very important, Michael, it's very important." And I said... I thought it was kind of crazy, being that he's kind of old and everything, but I did that. He came back a week later and he says, "Did you do it?" And I said, "Yes." And I said, "But how come he asked me to do that?" I says, "I can't eat those." And he says, "That's because you will always remember that you have food in the house." He said, "When we're going through drought and those type of things, we always have this way of trying to deal with that psychologically." So that's, when I look at the American system, how come I was kind of disillusioned with it. What an interesting story about the seeds in the house. Can you say a little bit more about the relationship that a farmer has with the land using conventional versus regenerative approaches or traditional approaches? Well, from a Hopi standpoint of view, that corn is touched at least seven or eight times throughout its life. Everything from harvesting to shelling to planting to preparing it for food. So there's this very intimate relationship that we have with the things that we grow and our land. For example, when I was out gathering plants one day with my grandfather a long time ago, we found the plant that we needed, but he told me to leave it. He says, "We need to keep that for the next generation." So we went on for another half-an-hour until we found some more. And so it's that type of relationship that we have with the land. It's one of caring and it's one of reverence. And I'm not saying that conventional agriculturalist doesn't look at the land that way, but because of all the inputs that he uses, and he's up on his big combines and his tractors, and everything like that, he doesn't really get to actually understand the value of that, the reverence for that, the respect for that. And so it kind of taps out, I would say in sort of a belief system fashion that he just doesn't quite understand the value of what he's doing. I could be wrong, but that's how I look at it. Can you paint a picture for us of what your farm is like and what do you grow there and what sort of practices do you use to try to keep consistent with your principles and values? I'm at the Hopi Indian reservation in Northern Arizona. We're about 45 to 5,000 feet. We have sandy clay loam soils, a lot of desert shrubs and brushes. We only receive six to 10 inches of annual rainfall a year. And that's an important factor because when I was at Cornell, they said I needed 33 inches of rainfall a year in order to raise things like corn. So I raise things like corn, different varieties. We have over 21 different varieties. And I also raise squash, and melons, different types of melons, and gourds, and even cotton sometimes. And all this is done without irrigation. Now it's done this way because we have something like three paces, which is almost like six feet between rows. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that we are trying to conserve soil moisture. So when you talk about regenerative and you said the water cycle, we use very little, a limited amount of water. And our seeds have adapted for over 2000 years to go through things like droughts. And our planning depths are also anywhere from six to 18 inches deep depending upon what we see in the springtime. And so there's a lot of different techniques there that we use, that we have used, that allow us to preserve the land. For example, we just don't take all the corn plant away like they do in conventional, they'll cut the thing off. We leave everything there, we'll just take the cob off, and that cluster will act as windbreaks in the springtime when winds are blowing across the field, or it'll also catch snow when the snow falls. And so everything in Hopi has three or four purposes. It's just not one single linear approach like that I see conventional farmers use. So you mentioned 21 different varieties of corn, so why not just find the one or two varieties that work best under those conditions and grow just them? So a lot of them are just used for different purposes. A lot of them, they're all eaten when they're fresh. And we have like six varieties used for ceremonies. That's how come we grow a lot of varieties because our crops are tied directly to our ceremonial goings-on and things. So this idea of regenerative agriculture, the term regenerative agriculture, most people would consider relatively new on the scene. And you're saying, "Wait a minute, people have been doing this kind of thing for a really, really long time, and paying attention to some traditional practices might make good sense." Am I hearing you right? Yes, you are. I mean, we can go down the list like biodiversity. There's no place in the United States that I know that there's this kind of biodiversity as far as domestic crop production, things like corn, beans, and squash. And what I mean "biodiversity" that means if we get one disease on a plant, that doesn't necessarily mean that'll jump to another plant like you would have in the conventional agriculture, and what happened back in the '70s during the Texas T blight that wiped out monocrops across the board. Soil health, I gave a few examples of that of just leaving everything on the field when you harvest. Also, we plant in areas that are conducive to bringing in new new soil on alluvial floodplains, and therefore our pH levels on our fields are about 8.8 which is about perfect for corn. And these are 75 to 100 year old fields in some places. Also, this resiliency to climate change, I mean, nowhere else can I see corn grow in an area that doesn't receive any rainfall from April all the way up until the end of July. That's resiliency in a nutshell. It's resistance to climate change. And so we're able to try to overcome some of those things. Every year we do not have a crop, so that's the other thing, but we're also smart enough to plant enough to last us three to five years to help us get through some of these longer drought periods. And in addition, there are many, many generations of wisdom built into an agriculture system like that. And wisdom, not only in the people who are growing the food, but wisdom in the plants and a wisdom in the lands. Would you say that that's true? That is true, sir. That is true. I mean, there's 2000 years of replication, and I'm still trying to get NRCS to understand that and why we have to use their conservation practices when ours are just as good, if not more valid for our area? And also the fact that, those conventional agricultural techniques are subsidized, whereas ours are not because they're not scientifically validated. And I still have a problem with that because you have 2000 years of replication on the ground where you only have 250 or less for these natural resource conservation standard practices. And so I'm just trying to figure out why that's so, and I'm developing some policy to try to rectify that situation. Do you see things as changing? Are more and more people kind of aware of this type of an approach? I think if they get to see it, they'll become aware of it. Unfortunately, a lot of indigenous practices that we still see going on aren't really given that much credence. Unless they're aligned with what Western technology is showing, they're kind of looked at as informal knowledge, which is not really true. Our biggest problem right now is just to try to tell some of our stories and what we're doing. And so working with the Native American Agriculture Fund is allowing me to start to do that. And I've also been able to speak at a couple of regenerative agricultural conferences. That's also important too, because as you know, if you're not out there talking about things and looking at things, you'll never hear about these beautiful things that have been going on for well over two millennia. Do you see hope that these kinds of practices could be used on a broad scale? Let's say you have thousands of acres as some farmers do, could this be done on a larger scale do you think? I think it could be done. Taking our Hopi cropping system and putting in Iowa, it wouldn't do any good because it just wouldn't fit in there because everything that we do out here is place-based. By looking at some of what regenerative agriculture is trying to do, some of the techniques are very valid, but the biggest problem that I see is the financial segment. There's about a three to five year gap of trying to figure out, well, what's the farmer going to do when he switches over? He's going to lose money at first because he's switching over to a whole new system. And so that gap needs to be filled somehow by banks or something like that that would allow the farmer to do that, to improve soil health and all those things that you just mentioned. So what sort of advice or guidance would you give to conventional farmers who want to shift their operations toward a more regenerative model? I would have to tell them to look at the regenerative model. I know there's some people up in Wisconsin and probably in the Midwest there that are already doing some of this stuff, but they're just few and far between and their stories aren't really talked about too much that I see. There's nothing better than talking to your neighbor. I mean, in the farming world, I think when somebody does something, and it's successful, a lot of people start to buy into it and things start switching. I think the only resistance we'll get, to be honest with you, is like from agribusiness and some of the seed companies and the chemical companies that produce the stuff that the farmers need to grow a good high-yielding crop. But I think over time, especially with this recent pandemic that we're having right now, I think farms will get smaller. I think we're seeing big bottlenecks in the supply chain because we're just using a few facilities to distribute a lot of things. And so we need to get back to the smaller family farm that American farmers were founded on. You're probably one of the few people who has a deep understanding of both conventional farming and the fully regenerative orientation of the farming. What do you see as the challenges and opportunities for both the Hopi people and for the nation at large? The challenge is for us is just to get more people to farm. We bought into a lot of the Western ways of doing things like grocery stores and everything else like that. And I'll never get it back to 100% percent probably like it was in the '30s during the Great Depression where we didn't actually feel that out here at Hopi. But I'm talking about at least get it up to at least 50%. Right now, it hovers around 25%, I believe. There's an assessment being done by the Hopi Foundation to take a look at that. As far as the conventional thing is concerned, their thing is going to be just trying to find people to buy in. There's people that want to have regenerative agriculture, but those same people that want it to happen, they also need to find ways to supplement what the farmer's going to lose for a while as he goes through this cycle of changing up. Is there anything else you'd like to have people know about this kind of approach? For me, it's pretty simple. We farm because this is what our belief tells us. I think that's very important. I kind of look at all this pandemic crisis of people getting away from their values and just kind of figure out who they are again. It's a great time of reflection, and I think when it all comes down to it and everybody comes out of this, I think we're going to see a big surge in trying to get back to things that will help us, the things that we value the most. I hope it goes that direction. I feel it's going to go that direction. It's just people helping people, neighbors talking to neighbors, and so forth down the line. It's the old way of doing things that I think has more value in it than people can see right now. Well, thank you, Michael. It's a very helpful approach, and you're very inspirational in the way you talk about this. So I very much appreciate you joining us.    

For All Abilities – The Podcast Episode Twenty Nine - Michael Newman - Moving from College to Employment with Autism and Bipolar Disorder.   In this episode, I interview Michael Newman - college student . On the last podcast, I interviewed Michael’s mom, Kristine. She and I discuss Michael’s early years, his strengths and his college experience. On this episode, Michael and I discuss his view of his early years and his plan for employment. We also discuss the accommodations that may help him when he gets a job.  To connect with Michael, please email him at jankdn@gmail.com.    Go to our website www.forallabilities.com for information on our software that enables employers to support their employees with ADHD, Dyslexia, Learning Differences and Autism. Thanks for listening!  Betsy     Thanks for listening to For All Abilities today!    Share the podcast with your friends, they’ll thank you for it!   Get our newsletter and stay up to date! The newsletter link is on our website www.forallabilities.com   Follow me   Twitter: @betsyfurler   Instagram: @forallabilities   Facebook: @forallabilites   LinkedIn: @BetsyFurler   Website: www.forallabilities.com   Full Transcription from Otter.ai           Betsy Furler  0:05   Welcome to for all abilities, the podcast. This is your host, Betsy Furler. The aim of this podcast is to highlight the amazing things people with ADHD, dyslexia, learning differences and autism are doing to improve our world. Have a listen to for all abilities, the podcast, and please subscribe on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to for all abilities, the podcast. Today we're talking with a special guest. We're talking with Michael and his mom. Christine was on the podcast last week talking about him and his brother. But I thought it would be really fun to talk to Michael himself and get his views on employment and school and his own neurodiversity. So Michael, welcome to for liabilities a podcast. Thank you for having me. Yes, thank you so much for being here and I would love for you just to introduce yourself really quickly to my listeners.   Michael Newman  1:13   Okay. Um, my name is Michael Newman. I'm 23 years old, and I've been diagnosed with autistic tendencies and bipolar disorder.   My bipolar starts showing up around second grade.   My autistic tendencies didn't show up until much later than that. But due to the severity of bipolar I had I don't remember much from elementary school, there was a bunch of memory loss from that. So I'll just say what I can.   Betsy Furler  1:50   Awesome. So and as you know, so to my listeners, Michael, this is a second time Michael has been nice enough to let me interview him because the first time I had some audio parts So we're having to do a repeat. And so Michael, I'm so glad you're willing to do this. So so you already know the question. So the first one is, what were you like as a little boy? So I know you had said that you had some memory loss and you don't remember a lot. But did you enjoy Elementary School in middle school?   Michael Newman  2:20   Um, I enjoyed middle school, but elementary school not so much. The main problem that we had was that bipolar was running rampant while we're trying to find the right medication. Um, it made bipolar worse until we finally found out what I needed around fifth grade. I'm probably one of the sizings I remember that was actually very clear. For me remembering is my mom telling me that this was the happiest she'd ever seen me in the past couple of years. By polar There was major ups and downs there. I've ended up doing was called crash where if you don't know what that is, it's a it's an aftermath to bipolar. Where after an episode I get really tired. I can't think and I'm really depressed   hmm that made school very difficult.   Betsy Furler  3:24   Yeah, I bet and you said you liked once you got your medication kind of straightened out that made school better, I'm sure made everything better made life better. When you were in middle school, did you have any hobbies or extracurricular activities that you did?   Michael Newman  3:41   Well, the main thing that I enjoy doing is art. I've done pretty much every medium you could probably think of. But starting in middle school, I started doing other things sixth grade, I started doing songwriting. And then starting in eighth grade, I began to write stories.   Betsy Furler  4:02   That's awesome. Yeah. So, um, a little bit later, we're going to kind of talk about your strengths around employment. So then, so then you went off to high school. And was high school similar to middle school, or Were there any differences? did things get better or worse?   Michael Newman  4:18   Things got a lot better.   In high school, I'd say the issues stopped at school around eighth grade. I would have probably two episodes that were really bad at school until the fifth grade, but just for middle school, but things felt like as a lot more control afterwards. I didn't have any problems at school since then.   Betsy Furler  4:48   That's awesome. And now you're, you're in college and you're going to be finishing up in about a year. Is that correct?   Michael Newman  4:54   I'm going to be finishing at the end of this year.   Betsy Furler  4:57   Oh, okay. So it's just one more semester.   Michael Newman  5:00   After two more because I'm doing the summer semesters and have one more semester left.   Betsy Furler  5:06   Okay. And then fall semester as well. Yes. Awesome. So and what is your major?   Michael Newman  5:14   Um, general business? I've changed my name my major a couple of times. The first one I did graphics design for my major, which that only last fall semester because I was informed here needs Texas that job description is pretty hard to find. And then I changed it to general size and I'm doing general business.   Betsy Furler  5:42   Yeah, I think that'll open up some more business opportunities, job opportunities for you. And what is your favorite thing about being in college Ben?   Michael Newman  5:52   Um, well, they have. I don't live on campus but I drive up there. They have a game room actually. And my favorite thing to do the game are you playing playing ping pong with friends and actually taught other people how to play.   Betsy Furler  6:13   Oh, that's amazing. That's, that's so much fun. And are you a video gamer as well?   Michael Newman  6:19   Yes, I am. I've played a lot of your games, but that's not really the main thing I do much anymore.   Betsy Furler  6:27   Oh, good. Yeah. And ping pong is a super active sport. It's like it's always amazing when I see people play ping pong, how much movement they do. Yeah, hand eye coordination and mood and physical movement   Michael Newman  6:39   is a lot more than just involved back and forth.   Betsy Furler  6:44   Yeah, yeah, strategy and everything else involved in that. And so as you get ready to graduate, I know you and your mom have been talking a lot about what kind of job you might want. So what have y'all been thinking about?   Michael Newman  7:01   She thinks the best job with me would probably be a desk job routine as a big thing for me if like a sum, if I get a job description, but then things are just like I get a curveball with an assignment. Things change I start getting a little confused and worked up. I get a little stressed out.   Betsy Furler  7:28   So you need as well as we're just kind of talking about jobs. We'll talk about the job accommodations too. So you need clear direction, right? Yes. Excuse me like so you like people to tell you like this is what I expect from you. And what about structure around schedule?   Michael Newman  7:49   I'm really when it comes to schedule, I'm very flexible as if someone needs me to work someday I'll just go work there no questions asked.   Betsy Furler  8:00   Okay, and and then I think we talked when we were talking before about one of the accommodations you might need is a little bit of flexibility on missing work occasionally, if you have a crash,   Michael Newman  8:13   yes. And   Unknown Speaker  8:18   oh, god,   Michael Newman  8:19   oh, there was another accommodation that we had talked about. And that accommodation was when I get stressed out, I need like a moment to step back and just sort things out, kind of calm down, get things together, before you start working again.   Betsy Furler  8:42   Yes, that's right. And I had said, I like 15 minutes and you said no more like five minutes, right?   Michael Newman  8:47   So five tops.   Betsy Furler  8:49   Yeah, not even a big deal. And what about I don't think I asked you before but what about what is your How do you like to learn new information? Do you like to read video To read watch a video here something, how to you are hands on learning? What do you think your best learning style is?   Michael Newman  9:10   hands on learning would probably be the best.   Betsy Furler  9:13   Okay, yeah, like going through so, yeah. So as we were, you know, on our last conversation we were talking about, you know, it's, you really don't need that many accommodations. And I think one of the things I was excited about having you on the podcast to talk about was the fact that someone could hire you, you would be a really loyal employee. And, and while you have a disability, you really need only about four things three or four accommodations that really aren't expensive or a big deal to implement because, you know, to have a little flexibility on if you need to come in late a day or so would you say a month or every couple of months when you have a crash   Michael Newman  9:58   crushes really only have an episode whenever I get really stressed out, sometimes very, very rarely. I will miss miss medication, either at night or in the morning. And that can lead to some effects. But usually an episode doesn't happen often. Yes, probably a couple months.   Betsy Furler  10:27   Yeah. So and then being able to take a moment away a couple of minutes, 235 minutes. And when you get overwhelmed, clear instruction, and and then maybe for your manager to know that when you're learning something new, you like to do hands on the walks instead of you know, giving it to you in written form, that having been able to walk through it is preferable to you, which that's not really even a common accommodation that's more like learning style and something that employers Do for everybody. So, um, yeah, I'm really excited. I can't wait to hear about what your job search looks like when you get there. And then you know what you what you end up doing because I think you could be you would be a really great employee for somebody. And really, they would really have to do very little for you. I really, I really wanted to point that out to people who are employers who are listening to my podcast, that there are so many times where you can get someone where they might be, you know, kind of, they don't know what to think or what to expect with someone who has artistic tendencies and bipolar. But once you get there on the workforce, you're kind of just like everybody else, you just need a couple of little couple of little things here and there that if your manager is aware of it doesn't even cost them any money or make any difference in your work. What you're doing Your productivity.   Michael Newman  12:03   There's a one thing I didn't mention, though, when we start. And I think this would really help out my employers. Um, I've been told that this is very rare for people with bipolar. But I've been able to recognize what was going to lead to an episode like, I can recognize an episode before it happens. So people know, I'm going to have a problem. And this is what I need.   Betsy Furler  12:36   That's Yeah, that's fantastic. That's definitely something you'll want to let your employers know that, you know, they you need, you basically need to be able to communicate with your managers. Yes. Yeah. Well, Michael, thank you again for being on the podcast. And I don't think the first time we recorded it, I asked you how people could connect with you did, I can't remember We've went through that. But if people want to, to email you, or I don't know if you're on LinkedIn or any social media, but is there any way that people could connect with you?   Michael Newman  13:11   I'm really not on social media, but I'd be fine giving up my email address. Okay.   Unknown Speaker  13:19   What's your email?   Michael Newman  13:21   That'd be Michael Newman 199 seven@gmail.com.   Betsy Furler  13:27   Awesome. And I will put that in the show notes. Because I know this is gonna be really helpful for other people out there who are both hiring people or other people that are looking for jobs or they're college students and families. So I thank you so much for doing this interview not once but twice.   Michael Newman  13:48   I really appreciate it.   Betsy Furler  13:52   And to my listeners, thank you so much for tuning in today. And please rate review and subscribe to my podcast. Cast on whatever podcast platform you're listening to, and tune in to the next episode. Thanks, Michael. And thank you. Thanks so much for listening to the for all abilities podcast. This is Betsy Furler, your host, and I really appreciate your time listening to the podcast. And please subscribe on any podcast app that you're listening to us on. If you'd like to know more about what we do in our software that helps employer support their employees with ADHD dyslexia, learning differences in autism, please go to www dot for all abilities calm. You can also follow us on Instagram. And you can follow me on LinkedIn at Betsy Furler. It's f isn't Frank. You are le AR Have a great day and we will see you soon.

It was a year ago June 21, 2019. The Aloha Friday Ohana Gathering at Detroit Foundation Hotel and live worldwide Broadcast with Michael Patrick Shiels Michigan’s Big Show. Started at 6am in the Detroit Foundation Apparatus Room. Michael is a long time friend. He has won many awards with his Michigan's Big Show and his extensive travel and golf writing as author and journalist. Some back story on why I wanted to do this live broadcast with Michael at Detroit Foundation Hotel. Michael's mentor was the legendary JP McCarthy, WJR Radio. In the 1970's-80's JP and WJR were was very supportive as they still are of my efforts in Detroit. Michael was JP's Producer after I left Detroit. Michael and I actually met here in Hawaii in the 1990's as he is a wonderful ambassador for Hawaii and has written extensively and broadcast from Hawaii. I mention that because I have been weaving my Detroit community and Hawaii community for years with a lot of friends and ohana. There are a lot of threads that weaved nicely over last couple years as Bob Lambert, GM Detroit Foundation Hotel had been so open to sharing ideas and ways to showcase the community space and spirit I had learned to appreciate at Detroit Foundation Hotel. So Michael and Bob and his team at DFH and a whole bunch of us I like to call Ohana shared a wonderful morning last June 21. Michael let me line up all the guests that included who we had partnered with at DFH like Empty Bowls Detroit, Rainbow Connection and the Detroit Historical Society. We also showcased the Rocket Mortgage Classic and the monies being raised for the Detroit community as Michael talked with Steve Wilke (RIP) Hour Magazine and GAM and RJ King dBusiness who had just released his new book, Detroit: Engine of America. Larry Alexander ...DMCVB aka VisitDetroit was a guest and talked about all the efforts in Detroit. Tony Michaels, Parade Company joined us and talked about the Ford Fireworks that were coming up the following week. . Watching many of the summer events being cancelled and the Detroit Foundation Hotel being temporarily closed is difficult .... however the good efforts of so many of our ohana going on in many places in the community and hopefully DFH will be open again soon. I loved listening to this broadcast the other day. I heard Michael Patrick say the crowd and energy and spirit of the day reminded him of JP McCarthy's Focus Radio Show parties. What a compliment. While it was a year ago I remember so well how happy we all were about the day and how much gratitude I had for all that helped make it such a memorable day. Bob Lambert and Jennifer Lee and the DFH team at the time, Darraugh Collins, Michael Patrick and like always Colleen Robar helping us out in so many ways. So that is why I am replaying our Broadcast.

ACEC Vice Chair and President of HED Design, Michael Cooper, stopped by the program to discuss how engineering firm executives can lead their firms through the COVID-19 crisis.  Transcript:Host:Welcome to another edition of the Engineering Influence podcast from the American Council of Engineering Companies. Today. We are very pleased to be joined by Michael Cooper. He is the president of HED Design out of Southfield, Michigan. We had Mike on the program a few months ago to talk about leadership and of course that was a very different world than we are living in at the time. Now we find ourselves in a socially distanced remote work focused pandemic, which changes the way that leaders lead their firms, especially when they can't physically be there with their teams. So having Mike on to talk about this and really how to approach it and how do you deal with it is, is really important topic. So Michael, thank you so much for coming back on the show and, and hopefully you're safe, healthy, and remote.Mike Cooper:Gotcha. Thanks for thanks for having me back. Yes. Happily we are safe. We are healthy, we are remote and and like a lot of people, we are working through our circumstance as as best as we can. I'm hoping that we get through it quickly and painlessly. That's for sure.Host:How has it been with your firm to go from you know, your day to day normal operation to this new reality that we're living in? Was an easy switch to, did you already have a lot of remote working going on or, or was it a completely new thing?Mike Cooper:No, I think the answer is yes and yes, we did have a lot of remote working going on. We've got projects all over the country. We have people who are traveling routinely between our office locations. And so there's a, there's a a base level amount of remote work, travel and such that is always happening and probably been increasing for us. And then and then when, once, once we're in this situation, I think like a lot of people were forced with having to go to a virtually 100% you know, remote work environment overnight. And I'm happy to say our, our people were able to adapt to that very quickly. The technology was in place to be able to support that. And, and in talking to my peers at firms around the country, I'm hearing a similar story and maybe simply chocked up to you know it seems, it's probably easier to do these kinds of things than it seems when you don't have any other options. And I think for most of us, we really didn't have other options as, as it became apparent that that working remote and staying home was going to be the way to protect our people. That's just what you have to do and you have to find a way to do it.Host:Yeah. It's just being forced to adapt and you know, that creates a lot of opportunity for creativity, finding work arounds. And just making it happen. And that's what happened to us. I mean, you know, as an organization, ACEC is very, you know, focused on physically being there. We have a very tight knit group in the office. And to go from one day essentially coming into the office to the next day going to centralized. It was a shift and it worked because we had no other choice. But it does after a while, you know, you get caught into this Groundhog day kind of thing. And I know one of the, one of the things that you always talk about is looking at that big picture from a leadership perspective. It's that whole idea of, of you can't be focused on the day to day, still gonna get that big picture view and, you know, what, what are your thoughts about, you know, what a leader should do to stay focused on the big picture?Mike Cooper:Yeah. I think you've, you've got, you've got to start with, with identifying some core principles that, that that, that you're going to, that are going to ground you and that you're going to use moving forward. You know, there, there's no playbook for a global pandemic where we're, we're almost overnight. We see the revenue drop, we see our customers having difficulties projects going on hold and the economy really struggling. And so, you know for me, you start out with the understanding that that safety remains and is always job one. You know, you talked about people before we were in this circumstance. You know, our success, the success of our organizations is driven by people. And I will tell you that through the circumstance that we're currently in the same holds true. And let's begin by saying that, that, that the safety of our people, the health of our people is gonna remain job one.Mike Cooper:And then we've got a, we've got to look at two things and we've got to look at them simultaneously. We've got to look at the current situation we have to look at today. And we've got to find a way to work together to get through, let's say the next four to six months. You know, we know that we've got a you know, we've got to safeguard the physical and the psychological safety of our people. Got to help them get through the stance because there's a lot of anxiety be being created here, whether it's financial anxiety or job stability or health anxiety or the anxiety of being at home with a young family when, when school is, is suspended, whatever that is. We've, we've gotta be paying attention to our folks. We've gotta be working to position our firms to weather the storm and to come out on the other side.Mike Cooper:You know, I think in the short term, we're looking at cashflow impacts as we try to weather revenue reductions and, and so we've gotta be looking at how we can position us and make it through the circumstance too so we can get back doing what it is that we do. And then we've got to find ways of minimizing the impact of this to our staff. We've, we've made huge investments as organizations in our people. You know, the, the cares act and, and the stimulus initiatives that the federal government has, has has, has rolled out are and will continue to be very helpful to our companies. And we've got to work to make sure we're taking full advantage of that and doing everything in our power to try to get through this, try to get through it safely and try to get through it, you know, minimally impacting our people.Mike Cooper:And then while we're doing that, we've got to remain committed to the mission of the organization. We will get through this. And, and we have to be thinking about the future and thinking about how we position our firms so that when we do get through it, we are prepared for what the markets will look like that and what our firms will look like. And, and because things are gonna change and we've gotta be prepared to get back to business. But get back to business and potentially a new or modified marketplace a new reality for us.Host:Yeah, that's the thing. I mean everybody's kind of in this area of uncertainty together because we know that there's going to be a change. We know this is going to and can go on forever, but the world of that will, you know, we'll walk into after this is over is going to be quite different from the one that we had just a few months ago. The market's going to be different. The marketplace, the demand, the focus is going to be different. And having that focus on mission of an organization is very important because as people are working decentralized and remotely, they still have to be driven by that organizational mission. And at the same time they're also working in a different way because the way that they work is just fundamentally changed. It's not just physical distance, but it's also the fact that work is omnipresent because it's right there at your doorstep. It's either in an office or your living room or kitchen table. Timeframes are different. Challenges are, you know, technology focused, but not the question of work life balance, all things get thrown into the mix. As a leader, how do you manage that? How do you address that and try to get your people still focused on mission but still effective in getting that mission accomplished?Mike Cooper:Well, I think we start out let's start out by, by understanding, you know, sort of where we are and how, how work has changed for us now, right? So remote work is now the rule, not the exception. And so we've got to make sure that we understand what impact that has to our staff, to our partners, our contractor partners, our clients. The greater reliance on technology says that we've got to adapt to what, what always has been in person activities and in our world and design in engineering, you know, planning of projects and quality assurance are, have always been things that we get together and do. So now we've got to rely on our infrastructure. And that means you know, enhanced security and redundancy. Greater reliance on the cloud.Mike Cooper:We've got a we've got to address challenges that are not solved through technology. You know, like I said before, schools are closed. So what do you do for folks who are home because their kids are not in school. And even if the stay at home orders are relaxed, it doesn't solve all of it, those problems. So we're going to have to look at a more flexible environment. What we're seeing now is project work. Perhaps it's being done out of sequence, right? If field activities are when we can still advance projects, but we have to do it in different way. The way that we work through tasks and projects previously is not necessarily the way we're doing it today. And then you brought up something which I think is really important, which is work life balance when you're working in your life are happening in the same place.Mike Cooper:It is hard to have balance. And so we've got to set expectations for people to help them. Because it can't be, you know, that work, it happens, you know, from six o'clock in the morning until midnight because your computer happens to be open and it happens to be right there on your dining room table or you know, when you're walking by every 30 minutes, we've got to help them pull through that. So you know, Jeff, step one for me is what's let's build priorities as a leader. Let's build some priorities for ourselves and what was I said before. We're going to start out with safety first and make sure we're focused there. And then let's make sure we're educated. Excuse me, as from leaders. Are, are we, are we looking at, at what's being put out by the world health organization, by the CDC so that we understand what is happening with the situation, which is evolving.Mike Cooper:Let's make sure we're being decisive because things are changing quickly. We need to make decisions move. Maybe we need to move on to the next thing. And these are all things I think that we directly to, how do your, your question of how we help our staff you know, because you know taking care of our company and ensuring our future viability, prosperity or relevancy is one of the best ways that we can take care of our staff. And so you know, understanding the macro implications for the business for the market sector. So as I said, and this is going to change things and let's make sure that we're understanding what forces are acting on our business, both, both internal forces and external forces. You know, as an example, the construction industry and what's happening there is greatly impacting what's happening in the design industry.Mike Cooper:You know, we're not a construction company, but I can, I can tell you that what's happening out there with construction companies is impacting us. So it's important that I'm aware of it and I understand it. I said earlier, you know, build a, build a plan to get through the next four to six months and follow it week to week. Like it's a project. This is the most crucial time for our organizations. And so we've got to make sure that we navigate this period. So we get back to doing what it is that we do. And then now we start to transition into, okay, so, so for our teams, let's make sure, number one, we're leveraging our teams. All of us are smarter than any of us and so let's communicate our plans and let's make sure that there's buy in so that they feel like they're owners of the plan and their stakeholders because ultimately it's our people that will drive the plan.Mike Cooper:Any plan that we put together is going to be driven by the individuals. And so let's make sure that our individuals, that our staff is on board to make sure they understand what we're doing, why we're doing it, how we're doing it. Make sure we're over communicating in a world like we're in today. You over communicate, you be positive, but be realistic. Credibility is everything right now because there's so much out there. Being, being delivered to people. There's so much news and so much chatter, so much commentary. Our staff has to trust that we're, what we're delivering to them is, is the honest, current way to information that is available. Again, so that they, that they're, they feel part of what's happening and they can help us navigate this. And then for leaders, one of the big things that we forget is we have to manage ourselves.Mike Cooper:We feel stress. We have the same work life balance other people have. We need to stay focused. And if we don't take time out of our day, if we don't exercise and we don't get outside and walk around the block and we don't take a minute to get away, then we're not going to be effective at our jobs either. Yeah. We, we, we talk about this with our staff. We've got to also remember this when it comes to ourselves. We don't do anybody any good. If we're strung out and we're, we're running on no sleep caffeine, trying to do everything. It's, you know, we've got big responsibilities, but we've got to take care of ourselves to make sure that we can do those things successfully.Host:Absolutely. I mean, yeah, you said there's no guidebook for this. There's no playbook that says this is how you manage during a pandemic when you have not only the work disruption of not physically being able to be there, but then also this greater, you know, overarching threat of this pandemic kind of looming over everyone's heads and everybody has their own reaction to that. And that all kind of feeds in to the day to day work life and then, and then the, you know, the personal life. And it's, it's interesting because, you know, as a president of a firm, you have a a whole umbrella of challenges and concerns that you have to deal with on a daily basis. And a vice president or even a manager who is, you know, now in charge of a team has a, has a number of direct reports is you know, the client lead on some projects, you know, they might not have the benefit of experience of going through a trauma like this. What are some of the, like the top line things that you would recommend or you would give advice to someone who is in an early leadership role? And has to deal with this? Both. Both, you know, we kind of addressed the team, but almost managing up of setting expectations, talking to from leadership and, and just making sure that, you know, they're adequately meeting their responsibilities in this, this time we find ourselves in.Mike Cooper:So yeah, it advice to them, you know, number one boy, a heck of a time to take out a new leadership role. But it's vitally important. Yeah, and I, and I, I would start you know, by understanding how vitally important those those supervisors are right now. Because the, the, the engagement, keeping our people engaged, keep you know, keeping them feeling like they're part of the organization, we're continuing to move forward when we feel so isolated is so vitally important to our ability to continue to serve projects and clients. So the top line things you tell them, the newer supervisors, number one you know, communicate, communicate, tell us what you need. Tell us what's going on at, at, at, you know, at ground level from, from your perspective. Let's make sure we're talking about this.Mike Cooper:Let's make sure we're talking about what's necessary every day. So that, that, that number one may feel like we, we, we care about what they're doing. They're people and, and them and what they're going through. And, and, and so number one is if in managing, you've got to communicate and, and let's make sure we're talking. And then secondly you know, there's this notion of, of, of truth to power. You've got to be truthful. If there are issues you've gotta, you gotta you gotta speak up and you gotta talk about them so we can solve them in any world. You know, issues don't get easier to solve as time goes by. But right now in this circumstance, you, nothing can fester you, we've got very little room to retreat right now. And so if there's an issue, we've got to jump on it right now.Mike Cooper:And my, my advice there would be, you know, be as transparent and honest as we can be and if there's an issue, let people know there's an issue and let's talk about how we resolve that issue so that we can move on to the next one. And then the last thing I would say is, is make sure that you are engaging your staff every day. Reaching out, you know, getting groups of people together, reaching out to them. And this is especially true perhaps for the younger, for the newer staff to the organization. They don't know as many people. They're not as knowledgeable about the company and they're going to feel more isolated than others will be. And reaching out to those folks in particular. Well and making sure that they feel like they're like, they're still a part of the organization, that we're still thinking about them and we care about them. We'll, we'll pay big dividends down the line because those folks, while while learning today and building their knowledge base today, you know, those are going to be the leaders of our firms tomorrow.Host:Yeah. Those are the three bedrock kind of qualities of leadership and communication, transparency and engagement. And they're important every day, but more so in a crisis. And it all boils down to that. It's just being open, telling your people what it is and you know, how things are and then being open to hear their concerns and, and, and being engaged with your team. And then also the leaders of the firm that, that you report to. Those are those, you know, it's kind of interesting because it's, it's fairly you know, like I said, it's the building blocks. It's kind of the basic thing. It's just, it reinforces how important those building blocks are because they just get amplified in a situation like this.Mike Cooper:Jeff, in times like this, you do, you go back to, to the fundamentals blocking and tackling and you know, you'd be amazed at how far a personal phone call to just say, Hey, how are you doing? I was thinking about ya. How much that means to people. When, when they're not seeing their coworkers and they're feeling a bit isolated and they're worried about the circumstances that, that are, that are at play, those, those fundamental things, they mean a lot right now. And I think if we get those things right we, we end up with a team of people that are all pulling the same direction, working us through the circumstance we find ourselves in.Host:Absolutely. So let's, let's, I guess, flip the coin and talk about, since we've already covered kind of the firm side, the employee side, let's talk about the client side. You know, they're having their own issues. They're having their own challenges in dealing with the pandemic. How would you suggest a firm right now deal with client expectations, client communication, the critical things that need to happen to keep the business afloat. You know, that's, that has its own see of challenges. But what are some of your thoughts on that?Mike Cooper:Well, I think let's, let's recognize that if you're talking about, you know, clients and projects, it's a little bit more challenging to be, to be doing this when we can't be together in, in one place. So, you know, sort of going back to the old mainstay of communication, you know, we're telling our project teams, make sure we're getting, you know, that we're pulling together now multiple times a week, sometimes every day. Just to make sure that people are connecting and, and, and that communication wants to include the client. We want to make sure we're talking to our clients on a very regular basis. We want to understand what their situation is. Because like ours, their situation is also changing rapidly. And we want to understand what they need and cause again, because their needs are also changing. So because we asked them today doesn't mean that a week or two down the line those things haven't changed.Mike Cooper:And so let's stay in contact with our clients. Even if it's just to say, Hey, how you doing? You know, what's going on? How can we help? What do you need? Those things go a long way. You know, they're trying to maintain their focus as well. So we want to continue to find ways to support their projects, to support their initiatives, to navigate through these challenges. Even if we have to, as I talked earlier, maybe take a different road or go a little bit out of what a normal sequence would be. But let's make sure that we're doing what we can do to support them, to advance their projects, to help them get through this to continue to show value. You know, I in the big picture, you know, by continuing to show value, by continuing to support our clients it makes it easier for them to continue to keep us engaged with them and it makes it easier for them to continue to pay for design services.Mike Cooper:And I think, you know, we're in a world where where we have financial challenges, we're going to have cashflow challenges. So, you know, being deemed valuable and being relevant and being of service, you know, it not only does it help from a marketing and business development perspective, it helps the financial position as well. Because of our clients continue to pay us, then we can continue to to meet our obligations, to take care of our staff and to be able to continue to serve them. And then Jeff, we've got to also pivot and start thinking about life after Covid-19 and help our clients work through that, you know, trends, worker expectations adapting and preparing and you can look at just a couple of examples that I think most of us can understand. You know, the, the, the education institutions, the institutions of higher education you know, they they often will use larger lecture halls, right?Mike Cooper:They'll bring hundreds of people into a space and that space will be infused with technology and they'll have a professor or sometimes more than one talk to a large group of people. And we, we went very quickly from that to an online platform. And, and the question is, are we going to go right back to the large gatherings like we had before or is there going to be something else? Are we going to be maybe looking at more of a hybrid? Are we going to be looking at maybe smaller groups, more online or remote learning? I tend to think that, that we will to some degree. And so you know, there's an opportunity for us to work through some of these issues with our clients to be able to help them understand what's possible, what options they have, how their spaces, how their facilities, how their systems can support different types of, of, of learning.Mike Cooper:Things that maybe we haven't seen, but we will see. And I think likewise, we're seeing it in offices all across the country. We, you know, newer offices see, you know, a lot of benching of staff. They see collaboration spaces, they see social spaces built around people coming together, sometimes plan, sometimes spontaneous because you know, idea generation and innovation happens when people come together in groups. Well, when, when, when we go back are we going to feel the same way? Are we going to expect a little bit more distance between individuals? Are, are we going to gather the way what we did before? And, and I expect again, that there are going to be some changes in, in sensibilities and expectations. And this is an opportunity for us to work with our clients to talk about how space can be reimagined because we now know some new things. We've experienced something altogether. People are thinking differently. And how can we respond with systems, with space to, to, to get people comfortable and to, and to, to, to create productive spaces in a new world where there's a new way of thinking and and, and we've got we've gotta be able to, to address the now, but also pivot towards what's coming and, and have those conversations with our clients.Host:Absolutely. And you know, it's an interesting time because it's a challenge, but at the same time, as you mentioned, you know, looking towards a post COVID-19 reality, there's also opportunity here where you can help your firms or help your clients rather look to the future and uncover or try to figure out what they might need addressing this new world. And you know it's one of those old, I guess the old adage where, you know, in, in the midst of crisis there's opportunity and it's really important for firms to look at how can we grow, how can we change, how can we adapt to this new reality we find ourselves in? And that kind of ties right into the way that leaders need to be managing the actual business side of the firm to position themselves so that they can emerge out of this crisis, you know, not just whole but potentially with a new opportunity for business growth. How do you manage that side of things? The actual management side of, you know, the keeping the lights on and, and the and the business afloat kind of situation - in a situation like this?Mike Cooper:Yeah, I think the first thing we have to remember, you know, it's okay to think, you know, to think that we're in crisis mode, but let's not forget to run our business the way that we know how we have to continue to run our businesses because we will get through this. And to your point. So number one is let's, you know, let's remember that we are problem solvers, right? We are, we are methodical thinkers. This is what we do for our clients. This is what we do every day. And let's take a step back. And number one, we know that, that our world has changed our financial picture, our revenue, our workload. Let's model what we believe is happening and to the best of our ability. So let's see what we believe the impacts are and let's build a plan that we can implement to begin to get us through.Mike Cooper:Let's align the organization to the new reality. And that means you know, let's focus on clients and projects. You know, I unfortunately, and I, and I feel terrible about saying this, but we have to make adjustments in our organization and in our staffing in order to in order to align with, with the work that our client, that our, our clients are bringing us in the projects that we have. Let's curtail non essential initiatives and investments. Let's make sure that we're, we're focusing really on the core business, on our projects, on our clients and less on some of the other things. And, and remember Jeff, in these circumstances, it's better to be because there's so much uncertainty. It's better to overreact a little bit than it is to under-react if you overreact and you've got to pull back a little bit early you know and, and, and let go of some things that were done, that's fine.Mike Cooper:That's, that's easy to ease up a little bit. But if you under-react, then you end up in a mode where you're constantly trying to catch up to what's happening to you. And it's very difficult to be in that situation. So, you know, my advice there is to take decisive action. We don't exactly know what's coming. We don't have a crystal ball, but take decisive action and hope that we can know that we can retreat from that sooner than later. But if you wait too long you sometimes pay a price for doing it. And that, and then I think had on, you know, you've got to address the immediate challenge. And for most of us it's cashflow. So let's make sure that we are taking advantage of the stimulus funding that's been made available to us. Let's make sure we're utilizing our lines of credit.Mike Cooper:You know, effectively and appropriately if we have cash reserves is now the time to begin to think about using those ask for release for some of the larger expenses. It might be rent, it might be insurance but see if, if there's an opportunity to get some sort of a relief, this is something that we're all going through. And I think what, what people may find is that our creditors are more open to working with us than maybe we think they are because one of the things they're experiencing, people are just, they've just stopped paying their bills. They've just stopped. And, and if, if somebody, if you're approached and say, listen, I want to continue paying, but can we modify the schedule a little bit? Is there some way we can get some near term relief? You know, you might be surprised at how many people be open to a discussion like that. In fact, I would tell you with respect to expenses you know, ask for deferment for as much as you can get to shore up your cash position today. You know, you don't know if you don't ask.Host:Absolutely. Yeah. Especially in this world. To be in that situation.Mike Cooper:Oh, for sure. You know, I think, you know, it, he continue to adhere to what he has has worked. You know, we have proven processes and procedures for planning projects, coordinating quality assurance for monitoring their performance of our work. For business development and marketing strategic hires that may advance the organization. We should continue to run our business and continue to adhere to those proven processes that got us here. You know, we should still do the things we know, lead to success, continue to do them for sure. We're doing them differently. You know, we've got, we're, we're doing them remotely, we're doing the through technology, but that doesn't mean we have to abandon what we know works. And then I would tell you start planning for a return to normality. And share that with the staff. Let your people know that, that you are looking ahead to when things returned to normal.Mike Cooper:And this isn't the way it's going to be in perpetuity or we are stuck in the mud right here. We have to work our way out of this, but there is a future for our firms and for our industry. And, and we need to prepare our, you know, for, for our offices to accommodate people. Again, we have to prepare for new ways of working and let's bring our people into that discussion. And, and not forget about strategy and planning. You said earlier you know, you talked about a circumstance like this and opportunities that are born out of it and there is no question that opportunities will emerge. What are they what are the sectors that will recover the fastest? How can I use resources? I may have today that are under utilized to build capabilities in new sectors. You know, how can I leverage where we are today to, to prepare myself for the opportunities to come? And those are the things that besides helping our businesses and our organizations prepare, those are also the things that will help keep our people engaged. It'll give them rallying points. You know, we, we, you don't want to think about all of the challenges and all of the negative things all day long. It's also nice to look ahead and think about some of the opportunities and the positive things that will, will come. And so let's make sure we aren't losing sight of that and that we're talking about those things too.Host:Yeah, absolutely.Host:All extremely good points and good information for business leaders and those leaders who are, you know, on that ladder towards management or executive management. And it's, it's, it's an interesting time. It's, it's challenging time. There is opportunity to be found, but I think taking into consideration everything that we talked about, it's just that leadership that is boiled down to being open, being engaged and being transparent, looking for opportunities, making the tough decisions. You know, it, that's really what will drive companies forward. Hopefully this does end rather soon so we can get back to the normal business at hand. But without question one way or another we're going to be changed. Definitely because of this pandemic. And the industry is going to have to adapt to it. And hopefully, hopefully we have leaders who are taking these steps and taking this advice to heart so that the industry can come out of it stronger because of it.Mike Cooper:So yeah. Well, you know, our industry has been blessed with strong leadership for, for decades and decades. And I think we know, you know, those who have been through these kinds of situations before, you know, let's say the great recession of 2009, 2010, you know, they, they know we're going to get through this and they know that we've got to do what we need to do. Now. We've got to take the actions we need to take to make sure that we get through, but you know, the sun will shine again and we will be back doing the things that we do. To your point, we may be doing things differently, there may be a different environment. And, and we need to be mindful of that. You know, our, our industry is ever changing and ever evolving. But, but we'll get there if we do the things we know we need to do to get through to, to get to the future, we've got to take care of today. And if we do that we'll be okay.Host:Absolutely. Well, again, it's been a fantastic bunch of insights from you, Michael on leadership and, and this is a great topic and I want to revisit it hopefully under clearer skies and and more normal operations than what we find ourselves in right now. But I really appreciate the time and the thoughts that you have on the subject. It's just great to have them and hope that you stay safe, stay healthy and that your firm is comes out thriving and poised to take on whatever comes next.Mike Cooper:Well, I appreciate that. I hope the same for you and I very much look forward to speaking again when we are maybe through this and on to the other side.Host:Absolutely. Well, I will see you virtually the Saturday maybe at the board meeting.Mike Cooper:And yes, that'll be interesting.Host:And hopefully sooner rather than later in person. So Michael Cooper, Michael Cooper, he's, he's he's great on multiple levels. He's a great leader and his insights on leadership are wonderful to hear. Roy w thank him for being on the show again today. And we will see you next time on our next edition of engineering Influence from the American Council of Engineering Companies. 

On Episode 148, Michael Mathias is in to discuss the times we find ourselves in and the world of retail. In truth, Michael and I spoke at length more than a month ago—in the very early days of the COVID crisis. As I listened back to the interview, it was packed with lots of great information, but it really needed a current perspective. So Michael was gracious enough to come back in for another chat. In this discussion, we dig a bit deeper than the headlines, and look at the retail landscape, how retailers can market these days, what the world will look like after the crisis ends, and how retailer will retain and gain new customers when the time comes.Links of InterestMichael Mathias on LinkedInWhereoware

In this episode, let's talk about how to be a bubble buddy in the pandemic or any kind of wild and crazy situation that happens in your life. Now we probably need to explain a little bit for everyone outside of New Zealand. What the bubble buddy or what is a bubble, because not everybody uses the bubble term. Alright, so what's a bubble buddy? Well, here in New Zealand we are in lockdown level four, which means you need to stay at home. You're supposed to stay at home and you can go for a walk or a run or a bike ride around the block or you know, just stay close. You're not allowed to get into the car.  You can go to emergencies, essential services, like if you've got to go to the doctor or if you've got to go get food, but essentially that's about it. And you're supposed to stay in your bubble. Your bubble is the people that you're living with. So Michael and I have been in our bubble now for how long? A few weeks, and we're still alive. We want to talk about being bubble buddies and respecting your bubble. And also, because this won't be the only time this happens to any of us in our lives. I mean, there'll be situations where we might just have to be all together for whatever reason, and we're in close quarters and we have to respect those close quarters and, so having said that word, what do you think about the word RESPECT? LISTEN FOR THE REST OF THE STORY!How to Support the Mission of the Show?1. Be a Hero and tell a friend and loved one about the MD and Chef Team podcast. They will surely thank you. 2. Join the CEO of Your Health FB Live Weekly Coaching Group. This is where we do weekly coaching sessions and have a community that inspires each other to be better in health and life.https://doctoronamission.mykajabi.com/ceo-of-your-health-fb-group3. Follow our adventures on the Doctoronamission VLOG. Do you love stories and video adventure to laugh, cry and be empowered? So do we. That's why we have a vlog (That's a blog done in video style.) Just the way we do it here at Doctoronamission!https://doctoronamission.com/blog/ 4. For daily insights, imspiration, and behing the scenes action, follow us on Instagram and Facebook; just look for Doctoronamission (Dr. Isabel MD)https://www.facebook.com/doctoronamission/https://www.instagram.com/doctoronamission5. Apple users, please subscribe and review our show on Apple podcasts, we read them all. Android users, subscribe to our show on Google podcasts. Subscribers never miss any of the action!LinkedIn: https://nz.linkedin.com/in/doctoronamissionPinterest: https://www.pinterest.nz/mdandchefteam/Twitter: https://twitter.com/doctoronamissioSupport the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mdandchefteam)

Michael Myers sits down to tell us his story of starting Distillery 291. He had a booming photography career, but while living in NY during the events of 9/11, it made him want something else. He found out early on that he liked whiskey, so like most of us who start off with something new, he researched and used his skills from a past farm life to make it a reality. Michael actually built his very first still on a tight budget and ended up using some of his photography equipment to create the still. From these humble beginnings, his whiskey has gone off to win many different awards and they are now expanding even further, creating a whiskey that is Aspen stave finished and authentic to Colorado. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Maker's Mark Solar Panels: https://www.wlky.com/article/makers-mark-now-powering-rickhouses-with-help-of-500-solar-panels/31017612 Beverage Daily Article: https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2020/02/17/Alcohol-s-three-tier-system-slows-ecommerce-and-dates-the-industry Why Does Whiskey Taste Like Whiskey: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-does-whiskey-taste-like-whiskey-an-excerpt-from-lew-brysons-new-book-whiskey-master-class Rate Our Podcast: https://ratethispodcast.com/bourbon This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about blended whiskey. When were you first introduced to bourbon? Where are you from? How long where you in Savannah? Let's talk about your background in photography. Which more enjoyable, photography or whiskey making? Tell us about your experience with 9/11. How were your first attempts at making whiskey? Did you lean on any outside consultants? Tell us about building and designing your still. How much did it cost to build your still? What was your end goal when you first started? Tell us about your barrels. What was going through your mind when you first started? Did your photography career fund the whiskey business? Tell us about your awards. What is the operation like today? Was it daunting coming to Kentucky with your bourbon? Did you experience growing pains? What do you want our listeners to leave with about 291? 0:00 To be the best you have to learn from the best local in the surrounding regions are home to many of the most storied companies and innovative startups in the distilled spirits industry. And there's no better place to learn the business of the distilled spirits industry. Then from a university located in its Epicenter, the University of Louisville has partnered with industry experts to offer the distilled spirits business certificate, a six course program designed to accelerate your success in this booming industry. Oh, it's all online. get signed up to make your next career move at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit. 0:36 Michael Myers Michael Michael Myers got it. 0:40 We didn't want to say anything but I'm sure you get all the time people like Michael Myers especially down like Halloween coming up and studly yo Yeah, never 0:48 your 0:50 damn life. 0:52 And my first name is Jason. Believe it or not, he shouldn't be though. Oh my gosh. 1:07 This is Episode 242 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny. And if you're ready for your bourbon whiskey and overall spirits news, it's about time we get to it. According to the US securities regulation charges in its 2014 and 2015 fiscal years biagio North America pressure distributors to buy excess inventory in order to meet internal sales targets in the face of declining markets, and now is hit with a $5 million dollar fine from the SEC, johnnie Walker's owner Diaz you failed to disclose the excess stocks to investors creating a misleading impression that the audio and the audio North America were able to achieve their sales targets through normal customer man according to the SEC. Now without admitting or denying the SEC findings, Dr. Gao has agreed to pay a $5 million penalty and agreed to cease and desist from any further 2:00 violations. The SEC has accepted the offer. Lexapro distillers is paying homage to the past by relaunching an old bourbon. The Davis county Kentucky straight bourbon is being released in three varieties. The Nashville is a mix of weeded bourbon and rye mash Bill said it liver a sweet and spicy taste. There will be the original a Cabernet Sauvignon finish in a French oak finish. Davis county distilling company was the first to release the bourbon, and the brand dates back to 1874 and was one of the few distilleries to survive prohibition. 2:34 Maker's Mark has added more than 500 solar panels to its facility. In Loretto to power its Rick houses, and it's done through a partnership with the Kentucky utilities company. The 560 panels will provide energy for security, lighting, barrel elevators and office spaces in the brick houses. However, I'm curious if there's actually office space at a brick house. If it's true, I don't know if it's a good or bad thing because 3:00 You've been sequestered to sitting in a wreck house every day might get a little bit lonely, almost like Milton then as red stapler in the basement from the office space. But I guess it smells like bourbon, which is better than a basement so you got that going for you. All right, well back to the topic. The new solar array first began producing power for Maker's Mark in early February, and is expected to produce about 268,000 kilowatt hours per year. e commerce analytics company profit, tiro said that online alcohol sales could explode from anywhere to seven to $15 billion in the next few years, noting that e commerce is making an impact on just about every industry imaginable. And alcohol looks to be the next sector to be disrupted by the continued shift to digital. However, as we've been saying on this podcast time and time again, the three tier system is slowing this down and is dating the industry and an article by beverage daily calm. It looks at platforms such as drizzly go, puff and thirsty 4:00 brands can catch on and partner. It also goes into detail on how these brands can differentiate themselves and not be paired next to other brands that could be either cheaper or delivered in a shorter time period. You can read more with the link to beverage daily calm in our show notes. Last week at the inaugural us distilled spirits conference, Mitch McConnell offered no relief with the ongoing tariff dispute for American and foreign whiskey. The European Union is a key market export for Kentucky bourbon, and it imposed 25% tariffs on us whiskey in 2018. In response to us tariffs that Trump enacted on imported steel and aluminum. Now, late last year, the US left a 25% tariff on imports of single malt Irish and Scotch whisky liquors, and that also affected global companies like brown Forman and biagio that import these products to the US. Now I common excuses that the US whiskey industry has just been collateral damage in Trump's trade disputes. 5:00 And Chris Walker, President and CEO of the spirits council said that the industry hasn't lost hope and that the levees will be removed. And now there's even more coverage that the chief executives of the Scotch whisky Association and the distilled spirits Council of the United States are calling on the UK and US governments to urgently find a negotiated solution to unrelated trade disputes and remove all terrorists on distilled spirits. Have you ever wondered, why does whiskey taste like whiskey? Well, when we nose and taste bourbon, we get leather, caramel dried fruits, but it was never made with any of that. And a new article by Lou Bryson at The Daily Beast, he explores every step of the process and how flavors are derived with grains like rye and their spice in his character. Why using the same Nashville at two different distilleries will result in two different very whiskies. And then there's 5:55 an organic compound formed by bacteria that's found in Water Agency 6:00 And is responsible for that musty or earthy smell like some lake water, but can also be found in whiskey too. There's more talk about stills barrels, proofing and more and you can read all this with a link to the Daily Beast in our show notes. For today's podcast, Michael Myers tells a story of the starting distillery to 91 he had a career in photography in the events of 911 made him want to do something else. So like anything most of us want to venture into you research and research and research. Michael actually built his very first still on a tight budget ended up even using some his photography equipment in the still itself. The distillery has grown but that original still is used as as doubler today, from these humble beginnings, his whiskey has gone off to win many different awards, and now they're expanding into more and more states. The distillery is expanding itself and he's creating a whiskey that is asked when the state finished that he feels his 7:00 authentic to Colorado. We're currently doing our 2020 bourbon pursuit audience survey. So we want to know more about you, our listeners. So if you've got 30 seconds to spare, please visit bourbon pursuit.com slash 2020 survey. It really it only takes 30 seconds. We appreciate the time. Are it Showtime, here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char 7:28 it's Joe from barrel bourbon. In 2013. I launched barrel craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day My team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle a cast strength. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. 7:44 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. As I put the bullseye upon my lips for the first time, I could feel it tingling upon the bottom of my lip and the top. Once it hit my tongue it just overwhelm my palate with flavor 8:00 drenching down the bottom of my jaw line, tingling the sides of my tongue tingling the top of my palate. Just feel warming me all the way down. And you know what? It's not a bourbon. And it's not a rye. It's a blend of straights. It's a blend of straight rye whiskey and straight bourbon and it is motherfucking delicious. Right now I'm putting it as one of my contenders for whiskies of the year. You can see my full review on it on my YouTube page. But this, this whiskey and all the barrel releases and all these other blends that we have seen come out in recent years from from high West and barrel and numerous other you know, blending houses that are really doing a great job right now. They really are shaking up our traditions in American whiskey. You see the term blend used to be a really dirty word and American whiskey 9:00 ski and it all goes back to the 1800s when Canadian blenders were infiltrating the straight whiskey scene and undercutting the Kentucky bourbon distillers and putting their Canadian blends on the market and you know what consumers really, really liked them. And so it begins there and the Canadian whiskey distillers were trying to block the bottle and Bond Act of 1897. Of course, they were unsuccessful. The Canadian whiskey distillers also rise up again after prohibition, and they actually ironically tried to put bottled and bond on their label. Now, what's interesting is that the US government ended up terrifying their their whiskey to block them from using bottled and bond so that basically stopped them from using bottled and bond. But at that same time, American distillers did not have a lot of stocks from their left over from prohibition. So they actually had to use blends and 10:00 cells to get their brands out onto the market. And so you would see neutral grain spirit being added to, say, a four year old bourbon that had just been distilled a couple of few years ago. And that really kind of like people were like, ah, I really like blends, but this is all I got. And the straight bourbon distillers were just kind of reluctantly doing it, but they had to and so you couple that what they would later call rocket whiskey with the the the blended whiskey from from Canada, and you had distillers in the 1950s not even allowing the the word blend being used in their distilling house, and that's where the words mingle and marrying or born. And for every decade after that the Kentucky distillers especially, would call out blend as a dirty word and would not let people say putting two barrels to 11:00 Together was blending that was mingling. And so that's where those words come from is because people were never wanted to use the word blend in Kentucky distilleries. Now fast forward to 2020. You have a lot of new blood in the industry, a lot of new blood that does not care about old terms or old ways. They just want to put out great whiskey. And I got to tell you some of the more exciting whiskies that I have tasted in the past five years, our blends of straight whiskies. They are absolutely fantastic. But you will never, ever hear me say those words around the great Jimmy Russell. If you ask him, blend is still a dirty word. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, make sure you're checking out my new podcast the Fred Minix show where I interview musicians 12:00 And I pair whiskeys to their palate. I'm having a blast and coming up I've got an American Idol winner on the show. Until next week cheers 12:12 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Ryan here in our official recording studio, which is deemed Kenny's basement. Yes, yeah. Where we shoot everything. Whiskey quickies the podcast unit Hey but you know we started get everything together we got lights we got cameras we got everything happened in here so it's fun for especially people that are either watching on YouTube or on Facebook or something like that and you want to get something different than just something audio only at least get a fancy background. Yeah, unfortunately for our guests, when they show up, they're like, damn it what you're in a house, like a recording studio. are gonna be we'll get another one of these days. One of these days. One of these days we'll get there you know, as much cooler sailors whiskey, I'm sure But well, we'll get the studio there one of these days. We'll get some sound panels and everything like that. That makes us feel a little bit more legit 13:00 But you know, today I'm really excited about our guests because this is a distillery that, you know, we've heard about, you know, we've read about it before and bourbon and banter and everything like that. He's even been a guest with Fred MiniK on his show on Youtube before and so now something in common. You know, Fred's the mutual connection here right here we go and then and so being able to have him on the show kind of talk about their stories stuff like that is you know, pretty exciting because anybody that isn't watching on TV he brought to find whiskeys for us to sit on here. So we got their their bourbon and their rye, which you might be hearing us sipping up throughout the show. Yes, and it's very highly decorated bottle. So tons of awards. And I just had it for the first time and I can see why. For a distiller this young, it seems like some pretty good, juicy got here. So I'm excited to hear the story and dive into how it got to this ball. 13:53 See, they put stickers on Oh, yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and introduce our guest. So today we have Michael Myers. 14:00 Michael is the founding distiller and CEO of distillery to 91 out of Colorado Springs. So Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Glad to be here. Well, good. So you know, before we, you know, talk about the whiskey and the distillery let's kind of let's rewind the hands of time here kind of talk about your first introduction to bourbon or spirits or anything like that. Yeah, so the it's funny. The first time I drank whiskey that I remember was, we always have those stories, too. Yeah, I 14:31 was I was 18 and turn just turned 18 that day and went to a local bar with friend He must have been in Canada or something. 14:41 Now in Georgia, 14:43 close 18 That all changed but I went to bar and wanted to drink a whiskey and ordered Yukon jack, which was sort of the whiskey at the time. Sweet and now it's really not I mean, I think it's GNS what's 15:00 Some natural flavorings and stuff, but you would know better now I know konjac is a new one on me. It's from Canada. 15:08 That you said Yeah. And it's Yeah, it's a liquid. Gotcha now and so yeah with my friend Todd Hawkins and we had a lot of fun and drank you know, a shot of it and 15:23 and then probably the next time I mean, I was drinking jack jack daniels, as well later and then college. One of my worst experiences was super bowl and I had bought some really nice Crown Royal, moving up in the world and 15:40 and drank not a fifth but maybe 375 of that throughout the Super Bowl and just got so sick and actually woke up the next morning was like, I love whiskey. I am going to the bar and forcing myself to drink more whiskey so that I don't have that issue. 16:00 Where I can't smell that ever again. And so I did that day I got up that afternoon went to the bar and that first shot of whiskey was rough. can imagine you can even like try to like get a bloody or bloody married Atlanta your way in here though. No hair, the dog, and it was great. And now I make it. Yeah, that's one hell of a story. I know. That's like the most badass story I've ever heard. There's no way that I mean, I remember back in college and stuff like that. There was no way I get up after feeling hungover after a bad night and be like, I'm going for a gator, right? Like coconut water. I'm like, What can I do to feel better? I mean, back then everybody was drinking like Pedialyte, they would actually go and buy like, I'm guilty of that. There you go. It doesn't work. I think my times way before video. 16:48 Were salty. I was in Savannah, Georgia. They just kept drinking. 16:53 I was like, yeah, definitely different time we're searching for pedia lightnings like it just bring it up for us. 17:00 right now. 17:02 So let's kind of talk about more of like your history and stuff like that. So you were in Savannah, how long were you in Savannah? So I was in Savannah for school. I'm born and raised Georgia. With my summers spent in California. My mom lived out there since I was six. And so I went to about two different Yeah, ends of the spectrum, Georgia and California really different because we raised Tennessee walking horses, so and in middle school, we had 11 acres inside the perimeter and then moved out to Alpharetta with 70 acres and another 80 so we had horses and cows and all kinds of stuff. And I was given a camera when I was 15. My mom gave it to me and picked it up and never looked back. And so I went to Savannah College of Art and Design, believe it or not, that's where 291 comes from for me. So I my dorm room was 291 and after I moved in there I went school and learned in history. 18:00 class that the very first photo gallery ever was gallery 291 was in New York in 1907. And so I'm like, meant to be a photographer. And that's where 291 came from, which is my brand name. And that just those three numbers just have just stuck with you for forever. Yeah, as a I was a fashion beauty photographer for over 27 years and like for models are young ones. Yeah, very cool. Yeah. Mainly makeup beauty stuff, like Revlon. Clairol? Yeah, I still only know this because my wife's a cosmetology 18:33 Tiffany and company but I did shoot for this old house and Forbes FBI and what kind of cameras us Michael Jordan a Canon What do you know I shot with a Pentax six, seven, and it's a it's it's looks like a 18:49 35 millimeter that's on steroids. And so the negative is six millimeters by seven. So that's that's pretty big, almost playing card but a little smaller than that. 19:00 You guys are speaking a different language to me. I've tried, like, I've dabbled in a lot of things in photography. It was like one of them and it lasted for like two months. So I like it though. But it's collecting dust. Nice. Now just like iPhone, you know, I bought it right. That's everybody asked, Do you still do that? And I'm like, I have an iPhone. I mean, it's, it's in my pocket. It's all branded. I mean, it's, it looks like a phone. I'll show it to you afterwards. Yeah, that's what the sake is. Most people. You know, I remember when I had my first kid and, and they said, like, Oh, you've got to go out. You've got to buy an awesome camera. And, you know, here's your here's your cannons, your DSLRs. And I'm like, 19:37 I don't know if I'm going to be lugging this thing around with me everywhere we go. I just don't know if I'm gonna do it. But I remember I did look into it. I just never pulled the trigger on it. Yeah, yeah. good reason. Yeah. 19:47 I mean, if you're going to shoot, you might need it a better one. But family stuff. It's always been best. The camera in your hand or the camera in your pocket, because you'll get the image. It doesn't matter if it's hype. 20:00 quality or not putting you at least have the moment. Yeah. And that's what matters. I'm probably not gonna make it poster size when I was shooting. I'd be so focused on like getting a shot that I would forget the moment, you know, not being in the moment. That's why I was like, just doing my iPhone, but right. We're not here talking about cameras. No, no, but I want to hear a little bit more about the photography and like, because that seems like it was a pretty mean 20 years as you said that you were doing that right. 27 Yeah, yeah, I mean, so, so kind of talk about you've got to have some, at least some pretty funny stories or something good from those days, too. So I shot Angelina Jolie when she was 15. I have that picture on my 14 year old was. 20:39 And when she was 16. I shot her a couple of times. Some of my last clients were the Olsen twins. shot down. 20:46 Shot. 20:48 Like geeking out right now. She's like an Olsen twins. Yeah, so I had a really great career. It was still a struggle. It was you know, a lot of work and living in New York. 21:00 Not easy raising a family there and you know being a freelancer so as about to say so like the the dynamic of photography and freelancing versus making whiskey, like what Be honest what's more enjoyable now 21:16 making whiskey and how do you merge the tape? 21:20 I built my still out of photograph your plates. Okay. So a photograph of your plate is a flat copper plate you chemically edge an image in, you put ink on the plate, you put a piece of paper with it, run it through a press and you get an ink photograph. So I took those seven copper plates of different images from my life and water jet cut them took them and rolled them through a roller so that curve and then had a guy TIG weld it together. And that was that was my original still 45 gallon still. I had a 21:53 cask for the thump kegger doubler and I built a stripping still out of a 22:00 55 gallon gallon stainless drum. So you built this all yourself? I did. How do you do that? Like YouTube or something? Yes. I grew up on a farm I can build. Okay. I'm a redneck. Yeah. 22:15 And yeah, I mean, my story's intertwined with New York and 911 and then building this still. And the process of distillation reminds me the dark room. So that's where 291 came from, for the brand name for me, but I built that still and that still is the thump keg to my 300 gallons still that I built had built in Colorado Springs. So these these guys department of defense contractors, and they built things like titanium ball valve that's like 10 inches across four new killer sub, you know, valves and and nickel plate press not plate but nickel press rings for proposal. 23:00 tubes. And they're like, we like whiskey. Do you need a bigger still? And I'm like, Yeah, great. Sharon so gave them my plans and they built 300 gallons still that looks identical to mine. And the funny thing was, there's a little bit of pressure in a still like five pounds, but not much, but they were engineers. I went to art school. And they didn't believe me that it didn't need to be that thick. So they built it out of plate copper. So it is thick and heavy, but it's beautiful. It works really well too. So kind of talk about that, because you kind of intrigued me right there because I remember reading a little bit something about 911 and that happening and you couldn't get back to your apartment or something like that. And you kind of just had to move the family for a little bit kind of talk about that time. Yeah, so 911 we live three blocks from the World Trade Center. We lived on the corner of Warren and West Side Highway. And I was on granted and Dwayne with my son on my shoulders when the first plane flew over my older son 24:00 So they were four and five, my oldest son was in, in our building in ps 89, which is on the second floor, we lived on the 25th floor, and we had just dropped him off. My wife and I and my son walk into his class or his school, and that's when the first plane flew over. And so yeah, so everything that day was a crazy day, needless to say, spent the night on North more. 24:27 And then with seven families and then couldn't get back in our apartment, went to Long Island. Long story short, moved to Colorado for about nine months. I commuted move back to New York, was there a couple of years and it wasn't good for my family. So I said we'd move back you're still doing photography at this time? Yeah, I got to do in photography. And so we moved back and I commuted another four years full time, and then was just trying to figure out something else to do and still, like wrote some TV, worked on some movie stuff. 25:00 And just nothing really panning out. And I shot a vanity fair job in New York in August 2010 and on the way home read an article about the guy that created Sailor Jerry and Hendrix shin and he, you know, created an idea and branded it and all that somebody else made the juice form and I came back thinking wow, I could brand a whiskey you know, and and talk to a friend of mine, Mike Bristol, Bristol brewing. And he said, get your license and I'll try and help and so and then somebody else said why don't you try and make it because you can always hire somebody if you can't. And I'm like, they make it in the woods of Georgia. It can't be that hard. 25:41 And so I decided to build my still moved into 300 square feet. Got my DSP distilled spirit plant permit in April with I got it in four weeks from when I applied, which is amazing time. That's right takes us for 26:00 TTP doesn't move that fast anymore. And so I was in 300 square feet. I could make 60 gallons a month of Finnish whiskey that was working my butt off that was you know, 17 hour days seven days a week. Wow for talking about those like first attempts at making whiskey what's it like what do you do going into like are you reading a manual? Or how like are you just like going off like I'll travel knowledge and what will you do that? Yeah, he's got a he's got a landline to somebody with some some overalls on be like, No, you gotta tweak. You gotta move this. Yeah, so I'd never brewed beer. And I'd never distilled until I started this in my first distillation true. Finished distillation was September 11 2011. 26:42 My still the guy, TIG welding it together finished it after it took him all summer to get started on it. finished it September 9, and so I waited for that to remake that anniversary. And yeah, during that time, I read YouTube blogged everything. I 27:00 Heard about how you make whiskey. And and it is funny. The one thing that I do say is I watched popcorn Sutton's documentary, the original one. And in there, there's a point where he talks about taking, he takes a stick and the worms there. And he puts the stick in the end of it and lets it balance. And he says, if the whiskey is thicker than the stick coming off, it's fighting whiskey. So from that I learned you need to run it really slow to make really good whiskey. And there's other things that I learned books, I read things, and I love to cook and I love the dark room. And so I really feel that was like my home brewing experience. Putting those two things together to get to make whiskey. So are there any other like outsiders or consultants that you leaned on to kind of pick their brains or kind of guide you along? Or is it totally just you? Totally me? That's cool. How did you know you weren't gonna like blow up the place? Like, you know, just, I don't know, you know, there's a lot of pressure on 28:00 Nice other like five pounds pressure but yeah run high. That seems like a lot of back and happen. I knew that it was an open system so as long as you don't plug the system you're good and and as long as you keep cooling the steam coming off the still, you're okay but if that water stops 28:21 that can be a problem. Yeah, there was one point where that happened for me and it was a mess and 28:29 I think there was a room full of 160 proof steam all wrapped around me and I was just like, okay, let's calm down. slow this down. Yeah, and I just I read a lot I paid attention to what how it was supposed to work and and did it that way. The funny thing is, is I steam heated everything. So I put a steam coil in my mash tun that also was my stripping still with a different top on it and a column and then my finish still had a steam code. 29:00 illinit and I bought a home steam unit for steam shower. And I first time I hit the button that came on, it was all hooked up. I'd like to say we're like close from 29:11 anywhere. Close. That's funny. 29:15 And so I hit the button, went to take notes for a little bit about an hour later the day turned off. And I'm like, What? walked over there looked at everything. It was heat hot and push the button and came back on. I'm like, great, literally an hour later cut off again. And I was like, Damn, it's a home steam unit. It's got an automatic off on it. So literally for the next two and a half years. 29:42 Every run from 29:45 finish run stripping to mashing then I had to reset that button every 45 minutes. Gosh, that's awesome. It sounds terrible. 29:56 So I'd run home cooked dinner. That's like the great bootstrapping story. 30:00 Like somebody just like going in and just giving it their all and like figuring it out. I don't know. It's pretty cool. That's right. And I'd go home cooked dinner, come back, push the button, go home eat dinner, go to the liquor store and make a sale come back push the button go back to another store to settle alarm on your phone. 30:18 Reset, Steve, I know 45 minutes pretty good now. 30:24 Somebody goes up how the wind take their 45 minutes. Don't worry, I got that. I got 30:30 I mean, that's that's it isn't it is impressive story of being able to go and learn and actually build it yourself. You know, it's like, it's like most of the people that you know, you say like, Oh, you wanna write a book on something? Or if you're if you want to learn something, right, write the book on it or do whatever it is to actually learn how to do it from the inside out. And, you know, you could go to moonshine you and you can learn and look and be able to like look at it but mean you you really like dope the pieces that actually made this all together. I did and moonshine you wasn't around at that time. 31:00 And there wasn't a lot It was mainly have gone if it was already just done it yourself. 31:06 That's an interesting question. I probably wouldn't have. So when I went to buy a still, that's why I built my own Vendome had a 55 gallon or 50 gallons still, that was like $50,000 I'm like, I don't have that money. I've never made this stuff. How What? So I, 31:25 I decided to build my own. So that probably the same with 31:30 moonshine, you probably would have been expensive. I wasn't sure. You know. Yeah. So just, you know, just wing it. Looking at your best, right, I guess then talk a little bit more about because I think one thing that's interesting here was you're talking about your copper plates that you use that you you took and then if I understood correctly, you said you rolled it out thin enough that you could then kind of form it and build your still so didn't roll it out. It was fairly thin copper. It is then copper. I mean, it's it's rigid. 32:00 But you roll it just to curve it to put the curve in it. So 32:05 that's why you roll it not not squeezing the copper out. But the etchings are still on the still you can see them when you go and take a tour. It's pretty amazing. But yeah, I just 32:19 researched it. Not everybody can take weld copper, and I found a man that was an amazing welder. Another God guy that could could take weld copper and did really nice job with it. So and talk about the design a little because I know we've had we've had Vendome on the show before. And you know, they they talk about all the crazy designs and you go You mean you go to anywhere like you see the different steel boxes, you see the different ways that people are putting it I mean, it could be a spatial issue could be a bunch of different ways. But you know, unless you're doing a copper pot still everybody more it's a column still but everybody's is a little bit different, a little bit unique. So kind of talk about how you came to the design of what yours was. 33:00 Going to be so mine's a copper pot still, there's no plates in it at all. The only sort of plate is the thumb keg. So that kind of works as a what plates do and still. And that design I found on the web. Somebody had built one and I was like, that's really cool. And I designed it more how I needed it. But the the design of the still, there's a secret behind that. I figured it out. 33:29 I'm a visual person and I just I found a few stills that I liked and came up with a concept and idea and how, what the sizes should be and drew it out. So I had in high school I had 11 quarters of mechanical drafting. So I'm not great at it now because it's that's a long time ago, but I can draw that like AutoCAD or before was AutoCAD. Like pencil and paper. 33:58 T square Yeah. 34:00 Exactly with a maybe a compass compass. Exactly. tractor. Exactly. And that's what I did. I drew it out, I bought a drawing board, which is a piece of soft wood, thick, you know board and I bought paper and drew it out. I still have those drawings of it. I actually drew a limbic still first. And it's a really beautiful drawing, but I never went that direction. I went with the pot still. So how about you said vinden was 50,000 How much was your homemade $500? Wow. The cost savings? Yeah. All the parts I you know, I sourced all of it. That's not with my time in it or anything like that. But sure, yeah. Where'd you get all the parts like Craigslist or? Pretty much? No. Granger, actually. Okay. 34:46 A lot of parts on there. They have more stuff than you'll ever know. Yeah. You're like, do you have this and like, yeah, and I'm like, What? You'll have that too. So yeah. Craigslist would be a better story though. I know. 34:59 In search of 35:01 Such of a doubler misconnection where's my doubler? Yeah, so I guess um, you know so we're talking right now about making your still and making white dog and and kind of talk about what was that next progression of it so he's shown us the the picture of it right now so yeah, that's it is it's an exact replica of your of your original. It's really cool. Oh, that's awesome. That's really cool. So making white dog here at the very beginning so were you were you thinking like okay like I'm gonna make whiskey I'm gonna make bourbon or was it just like, what was the kind of like your end goal that you had in mind. So I set out to 91 Colorado whiskey, I set out to make a Western whiskey whiskey that you would walk into a bar and a Western asked for, you know, whiskey, walk up, the bartender finds a Western whiskey for you. So mine is a Colorado whiskey and it's big, bold and beautiful, like the state of Colorado. Okay, so 35:58 and they slam the bottle down. It'd be too 36:00 91 and you know, get to drink it and you have a deal afterwards. Yeah, exactly. And so I love rye whiskey before I made my own Thomas handy was my favorite. So both these my rye and my bourbon are my original recipes. The bourbon is changed slightly. It's 80% corn 19% modify 1% malt barley. It started out at 20 mile rye, and that's because Mike Bristol had a bag of corn 50 pound bag of corn, and it was over a weekend I wanted mashin. So I went to the homebrew shop and bought I was looking for a ride. They only had Ryan mall. I'm like great, I need them all to convert. So I did that mashed in and ran that. I ran that on a very small I stripped it and then ran it on a very small Olympic still. And that was truly my first distillation ever. And then the next distillation and I have all these notes written down with the dates on it and everything. 37:00 The next Captain's log. Yeah. Yeah, the ttv you have to a lot, you know, and I didn't I didn't have any money. I wasn't doing any, you know, computer stuff. So I was handwriting notes in the notebook. And they're funny to go through because I talked about, you know what I'm doing distillation, but I also talked about my son's running cross country that day, or an event I was going to or what was going on in my life throughout these days. So it's kind of cool to look back. It's all chicken scratch scribbled scratched out spellings wrong, you know, all that good stuff we need to do today. Like why the fuck is this? 37:40 What the hell is wrong with this mash? Yeah. Or, Oh, that smells like throw up. That is not good. Yeah. But that is gold because you can always look back on that and be like, this is where I started and always kind of bring you back to that. That is awesome. Yeah. And we go back to it actually. There's another mash in there. That is a 38:00 Special release comes out, usually in October. It's called bad guy. And that was my third recipe. And we we went back a couple of years ago because the newer bad guy wasn't tasting the same as the old bad guy and so we went back and read the recipe in the directions and 38:21 bad guy came from so I did as a single barrel for restaurant and I had done this mash to try I hadn't experimented so I was going to experiment and bad guys a four grain we did bourbon and when it came up still I was like, that is really good white dog. I mean, was sweet, amazing. And I put it in a in a tank and was waiting and was supposed to have already mashed in for this other one for the restaurant. And I got behind and I needed the cash and so I was like, you know I got the that one in the in the tank over there. I'll just 39:00 Cell it so I called him to come hammer the bong it's done, put it in there hammered the button. He was talking to his son on the phone who was like four. He's like, what should I call it? And his son goes bad guy. 39:12 And I was like, Oh, damn, and 39:16 so he he year later, when the whiskey was coming out of the barrel, I'm like, what are we gonna name it? And he goes, I don't know. And I'm and I had written on the barrel bad guy, so I didn't forget. And I'm like, you gotta call it bad guy. We got to call it bad guy. And he's like, No, I don't know. And then I talked him into it finally. And so that's why it's bad guy bourbon to 91 bad guy bourbon, very cool store grand weeded bourbon, you have a lot of cool stories. 39:46 Just sit back and listen, not just keep talking. I'll shut up. 39:50 I mean, kind of talk about that a little bit as as you were, you know, how much do you producing and what kind of you know at that time like what kind of barrels you putting them in like a 40:00 Talk about that process to 40:05 with the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that is in finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rack house whiskey club rack house whiskey club is a whiskey a month club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merch 41:00 side. And as always with this membership shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rack house whiskey club.com use code pursuit for $25 off your first box 41:15 How much do you producing and what kind of you know at that time like what kind of barrels you putting them in like kind of talk about that process too. So the barrel mill, I found them online somehow and they were fairly new out of Avon, Minnesota. And so I called them they would FedEx me a barrel. So I'm like that works. You know, everybody else wants to sell you a palette 41:38 palette. 41:40 There's a funny story about palette too. And so I just bought a barrel and would fill it up and and I had a few barrels in that 300 square foot space. And I'd harvest it and hand bottle and label it and go out and sell it. So the very beginning here kind of talk about what's your because I remember you said you were doing would you say 42:00 50 6060 gallons in a week, right is my month, a month, a month. And that took that took, you know, six. So my fermentation tanks were 55 gallon Pepsi, you know, plastic drums with the top cut off. And so it would take, I'd mashin six. So I could do two matches in a day. So that's three days, I could strip two in a day. So that's three days of stripping, and it would yield about 3540 gallons of low wines and at 35% or so and then I'd finish on it and it would I end up with like 15 gallons. And so in a you know, in a month period, I had 60 gallons to put in barrels. So I mean talk about it, like as we talked to, we talked a big boys right and they're pumping out that in 20 minutes, right? I mean, 42:54 yeah. So kind of talk about you know, like, you know, where where did you kind of see yourself 43:00 Like, were you like, this is awesome. Like, this is fun. I'm having fun with this, or you like I'm in, I'm in over my head, like kind of talk about what was going through your mind at that time. It was amazing. So when it first came out still and I tasted it, and I had a friend that was a bartender, phenomenal bartender, Nate Windham, and he would taste it. And he's like, Damn, that's really good white dog. And so he had a couple of cocktails that he was using some white dog that was on the, on the shelf at the time. And he just started trading out with my white dog and my fresh. And I always say if, if it came off, and it had been a grind to figure out the recipe, and it wasn't that good coming off, it would have been, it would have been a lot harder. But when it was that good, and Nate was already making cocktails with it, it was like, all right, this is working, and I could taste it and tell. And so but I mean, the whole process, you know, you've got to make those tale cuts and that's, that's the art of distillation. And I didn't know anything and so 44:00 That was made me nervous, you know, what are you going to do how you're going to do this? And so 44:06 in my processes of photographers solving problems, you know, the, the head cut is easy, it's a percentage, or you can taste the difference really quickly. It also drops improved quite a bit at head cut, and then you got ethanol coming off and then tail it's like where do you stop as a distiller the art of distilling, where do you stop and so when it started dropping and proof, I decided to take you know, a quart mason jar and and collect it every 10 proof and then go back, you know, I had the main amount of ethanol but here I had tails coming off. And I just decided started tasting them and deciding where, how much I would put back into, you know, the ethanol that had already come off. 44:56 And so that's that's how I figured out my cut. 45:00 Yeah, and we got to make sure you pick up the cuts cuz well that should make you go blind if you get it wrong. That's the that's the head cut. There you go okay. acetone, methanol and all that that comes off first loser, high, high alcohols that have a low boiling point. So were you like cash flow in this with your photographer photography? What the photographer you're you've only had one port right now get it I'll spit it out. Get it out your photography, photography career was it paying for your gosh what can I say that photography career? I just did it 45:38 photogra man 45:41 was your photography career was this kind of fuel in this baby or were you just like out on your you know on your own trying to make this work. I know my photography was not. I did do a design job for for charity. They were trying to save 46:00 The hospital from being sold to large corporation. And so they had this whole campaign they wanted. And so I designed and did commercials and did all kinds of stuff for it. So it paid me really well. So I use that money to start to 91. Gotcha. And to go back to the original distillation and all that, you know, when I started making to 91 I wanted to be Colorado and kind of branded and so it we haven't talked about that, but it's 291 Colorado bourbon or 291, Colorado rye whiskey, and it's Aspen state finished. So I take toasted pieces Aspen, pop the bung on the barrel, put the Aspen in the oak barrel, and for the last few weeks, we finish it on Aspen. admins are the trees that guys may turn yellow, but they don't lose their leaves. Is that right? No, they they lose. Okay, they've turned yellow and red. They're really beautiful. Yeah. 47:00 Why we only Aspen reference I knows we the dumbing down. Oh, yeah, yeah. So talking about City College. 47:07 So the way I figured that out was I wanted to ask been on the label I, I took some aspirin, toasted it, put it in a mason jar with some Finnish whiskey and was riding to Boulder with a friend that was about a two hour drive. And I just shook the mason jar. And when I got up to Boulder I had, you know, some of the original and then what it tasted like on Aspen and I'm like, that's good. And so that's where that came from. That's awesome. Yeah. Very cool. What's what is it about Aspen that's different from Oak that kind of gives it some different. It's there. So for me it it pushes common notes to maple and it adds a little spice to it and a little smoke. This rye has a beautiful color on it by the way too. I need to try the wrap the porcelain arriving on the nose on the rise really good. I love it. So it's one on 1.7 48:00 proof. 48:01 The bourbon was 100 proof 48:04 and how long you, you agencies and what type and how big of the containers and everything like that. Let's get let's get into it for that was all there. It's all secret. Yep. Oh gosh, man. Guess we had to go on a tour to find out. 48:21 So it's American oak barrels deep charred. We age a year to two years. Right now, you know the ride that you're talking about in 2018 one world's best ride from whisky magazine. It also won America's best in 2016 from World whiskey magazine. And then that's an interesting thing that in that 300 square foot space, my barrel number two of this rye got 94 points from Jim Murray's whiskey Bible. Congratulation. Thank you and and we have seven liquid gold from Jim Murray. 49:00 six different recipes. So it's been so Jim Murray's a fan of you. Yeah, I'm a fan of his He's great. His tasting notes are amazing. I don't know if you've ever read any we haven't had him on the show yet. We'll get him on we'll get him there probably much more elaborate than ours. I'm like tastes like smores are 49:19 or always try relating to our breakfast cereal you know like cocoa Chris for Count chocula I don't notice that you do you do a lot of cereals Don't you know I get a lot of cereal like when you're a kid. You get a lot of those cereal notes with it with the milk one of our Bourbons has a it's a char high rye. It has a cherry fund up 49:41 to it. It says it says he's that one now. You know fun dips that powdery my kids so it's like dry. And so the high proof of it make its cherry but it dries out just like fund up it's really funny. So yeah, you can find my my distill. 50:00 Eric jet had one whiskey and he's like, you know, it's like that. That dusty old Poncho and team was like, What are you talking about? And what were you on at that time? It's not your grandma's attic you know there is a note sometimes that dryness Yeah, you know that musty old basement. musty old isn't good but yeah dusties not so bad. Because it's the dryness part have tasted like, like you talked about cherry funded like grape Kool aids like, you know, the manufacturer grape flavors, you know, like, I get, like, come out a lot. Yeah, a lot. Talk about today's operation. So, so you're you're you're the founding distiller sounds like you're not distilling anymore, but kind of talk a little bit more about, you know, what the size of the operation is the people if you're still doing you know, 60 gallons in a month or if you're if you're if you progress so kind of talk about that. Yeah, I wouldn't be here if I 50:55 guess I don't like only bottles. 50:59 Well, that was interesting. 51:00 Same thing was like 2016 when I sent whiskey magazine, they needed two bottles and I had to pay money and and I was like, I don't have that much whiskey. So that's why it took me a while to start putting in awards. But all my tanks, the 55 gallon drums, the fermentation tanks, my stripping still. I mean, yeah 55 gallon drums have all moved up to 1500 gallons, including the stripping still. I showed you that picture has the 300 gallon finished still in it. All the whiskey still goes across the original still as the thump keg. we distill twice a week, and we're producing about 240 finished gallons a week right now. We're working on some barrel financing to add the first of the year that will move up to producing five days a week. And we are right now. I've been in 7500 Square Feet for six years. Wow. 52:00 That's hard to believe. 52:02 And we are moving within a year we will be in a campus with 28,000 square feet, four different buildings. One will be a distillation building the other one will be fermentation, barrel storage and then tasting room. So you just you're looking at it like this. Let's keep investing into this growing and bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah, I mean, we did 20 609 liter cases last year. Sold and and we've produced the year before 20 609 liter cases. And so we're selling everything we make. 95% of it is in Colorado. We just opened Kentucky this week. We're in 27 Kroger stores in Kentucky and it's going really well. But we could sell more if we had it and that's what we're working on. But we still the quality we are. It does not come out of the barrel until it's ready. 53:00 What's it like coming to Kentucky is it like coming to Kentucky to play basketball you know like we got faced the Wildcats when you're coming to Kentucky you don't face all the big boys environment is that daunting or you like Bring it on. 53:14 I don't know that it's daunting. The community's amazing. And that's the great thing. Everybody I meet is incredibly helpful. Even Fred MiniK he's he's the one that helped Kroger. So by introducing me to, to the buyer, and you know nothing about this rod tasted very familiar. Not had it at Fred's office. He goes, this is the next big distillery 53:40 because the smoking is that or reminds me of when I had it. So anyway, side note. 53:46 Yeah, so it's been amazing. I mean, at the one of the awards thing, Jeff Barnett, one master distiller jack daniels, Master distiller and I went up to talk 54:00 Cuz you want to say hello, you know, right oh my god, and he was the nicest man and we got talking, and he's from Jackson, Tennessee where my brother lives that's a surgeon. And we had a family farm in Shelbyville, which is which flat Creek, Tennessee, which was seven miles from jack daniels, seven miles to deckle. So I told him that and we really hit it off. And then my brother was doing a charity didn't know I had met Jeff, but knew he was from Jackson and reached out to him to do a tasting of the charity. And because he was from Jackson, he did it. And my brother called me and said, You know, that's who's coming. And I was like, Oh, I just met him. And he's like, wow. And so I went with my brother's friend, our partner that had a twin prop plane, and we flew from Jackson to tullahoma and picked up Jeff, and literally when I walked off the plane, he was walking up on the tarmac, and he's like, hey, Michael, how's it going? And I mean, I hadn't met him once in person, but he knew 55:00 who I was and was, it was amazing and we've become friends. I texted him all the time. I'm going to go see him tomorrow. The first time I went to jack, you know, shortly after that charity, he said, Come down, I'll show you around and and he put me in his personal truck. And he said, What do you want to see? He said, whatever you want to see, I'll show you anything. And that's amazing. And there's gonna be respect because Jeff's had everything he's awesome as to but you gotta check company like jack daniels get every resource imaginable to you whereas you kind of had no resources and made it work. So there's got to be something that you both can learn from each other. I yes. And he's alluded to that and is very respectful that I make a Colorado whiskey and and you know, that's the thing. I love Kentucky bourbon, I love Tennessee whiskey. I love all kinds of scotch Irish whiskey, but I'm not looking to make a Kentucky bourbon and Colorado. My bourbon my whiskey, my rye are to be done. 56:00 Different big bold, beautiful of my brand there's a few names but one's rugged refined rebellious, we also hard made the Colorado way. And then another tagline is 56:15 write it like you stole it, drink it like you own it. Nice like it. So, you know that's what I set out to do this and and it's been amazing 56:25 i mean i think it's it's had a pretty warm reception right and congratulations for coming to Kentucky you know this is it's a it's a big step this nationals feet. Definitely, definitely. And not only that is you know, talking to you about the progression of where it is or where it was to what it is today. It's everything comes with with growing pains too, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So kind of talk about at least Did you have a specific time of growing here that you're like, Okay, like, I wish was just me and the 60 gallons. 56:57 So, the one thing about being a photographer 57:00 Consistently you have to build teams of people especially doing fashion. So hair makeup, you know stylist, model, all that kind of stuff location that was helpful for me in in growing this and finding people that could help me grow it. So I have a team of about 13 people right now. It's an amazing team they do phenomenal work. But yeah, there were there were times and there's still times you know, I'm bootstrapping it. So there's tight times with money there's tight times with barrels not being ordered. panic, you know, bottle panic, you know things like that when I first started that was something I wanted to mention earlier about a palette to get not this bottle but my original bottle which is similar this but this one came along when I could buy 30,000 or promise I'd buy 30 Yeah, promise but this one I could buy a pallet of and my mom had given me a cooler and at some point and enjoy 58:00 Grant is an ounce of gold. And thank you for explaining that because I was about to say I have no idea what you're talking Yeah, it's a South African coin. And so I was making whiskey in that 300 gallon I needed a bottle they were they give me a better price if I bought a pallet or or to buy the bottle I had to buy a pallet and gold was up expensive than and I literally took that Cougar and cashed it in and bought a pallet of bottles 58:28 and was able to put them in that 300 square foot space I built I built shelves and made it where you know they weren't really in the way and it was kind of crazy but so there are growing pains. I mean you know i the most nervous I've been that I can remember is working on this move for this. You know 20,000 square feet. It's It's big. We We won't renovate it and build it out beautiful with for production line facility. 59:00 We're going to move in with what we have now and grow it like I did from the 300 to the 7500 square foot that worked really well. But we have a our model is a ramp. I mean, it's a it's a steep curve. And so we have a lot to get done in the next four years with making whiskey and, you know, there there are growing pains. It is not easy. There hasn't been a day where I was like, Oh my god, I'm not going to the distillery I give up. I'm done from day one to now. There's never that's never crossed my mind. Yeah, that's awesome. At least that means you're loving it. Yeah, I guess it. You don't have to think of the Olsen twins and they still need me. Right? 59:43 Yeah, that's a funny thing. I broke out a box of Polaroids. So, back in the day before digital, you were doing light test and stuff you used a Polaroid back on the camera. So you would take the picture of strobes go off and you pull the Polaroid Wait a minute, and then 1:00:00 like pushing that button every 40 and you peel it and you'd look at light so I have I kept most of those Polaroids I've got boxes of them and I opened one up the other day and there's some just really beautiful pictures in it showed it to a friend and they were like oh my god you got to start shooting again I'm like I don't know that that's happening but I did reach out to a hairdresser friend and a couple of them at the time with the Polaroids and posted on Instagram with it and hadn't talked to them in years 10 years and they're like what's up and it was really great makes me want to maybe try one day and who knows but not union at the distillery was like oh here's a great you know all your photography client car I got a photography clients and you know, bring them to your distillery like wonder now party this party There we go. But these you can get bottle shots done on the cheap, right you can do those. That's the funny thing. I don't shoot my bottle. Really you don't don't okay jars while you're here. 1:01:00 I shoot on with the iPhone for like in situation but to set them up and shoot them. I mean I can do it no problem but I'm a little too close to the product and also it's a different frame of mind and to get in that frame of mind it would take me a few days or week I'm working with the bottles and stuff to get the light and and it's just easier to for me to pick somebody and go I like his pictures and I can direct what I want from there and so that Yeah, I you know you coming from a photography background and you know, we're all kind of like doing a lot of stuff with whiskey and and I remember I talked to somebody about doing bottle photography and I'm like you charge what like to take a picture of bottle i mean it's it's something that I had no idea that even existed before then so it's a it's it's a really cool that you kind of have you can blend a lot of these worlds together and you know how to direct and stuff like that because I'd be like, I don't know a river in the background like you tell me what looks cool. 1:02:00 Yeah, and I have a business partner in New York. Or we were in a retouching company, Russ gun lack. And he, he still retouches. He's an amazing retoucher. And so I sent him stuff all the time. I mean, funny things, but I send him bottle shots and, and I can direct him and I can I can take a bottle, you know, if it was shot in the same light and have him put it like five bottles in one picture very easily and stuff like that. So I understand how to do that. So that's where I, you know, I can direct it and get it done on the cheap. I mean, everybody else that would cost them a ton of money. 1:02:41 But But I did, we were at a tasting and there was an airplane behind me and had a callsign number on the side of it. It's old, you know, World War Two type plane with that block number. And I took a iPhone picture of it and send it to Russ text it to him and said can you change that to 291 1:03:00 Literally 30 minutes later it came back to me on my phone and it was perfect. I'm like Yep, there you go awesome and posted it and people like out to 91 and I also did it this summer on a bowl. The brand on a bull somebody It was like 301 and I asked him to do 299 on it and they're like, I didn't see that bowl with that brand. 1:03:21 It's really funny. That's good to know people I guess. So I guess kind of last question before we start wrapping this up is you know, you've you said 95% in Colorado, you're growing to Kentucky I'm sure that you've got plans to even go beyond their kind of talk about you know, one last thing that you want to kind of leave listeners with as they are looking at another or walk in the store. They see your bottle and then maybe they hear this like what's one thing you want to leave them with? I want them to enjoy my whiskey. There's the funny thing I I drink my whiskey neat. It's rare. I drink it on the rocks, but I I also in the summer, or when I feel like it I drink my bourbon with 1:04:00 Mountain Dew. I drink my ride with lemonade and my only person I know it does as my dad. It makes it it's amazing drink and it's a nice drink summer drink. Yeah, and I want to drink bourbon. I also drink. I don't drink vodka Bloody Marys. I drink rye Bloody Marys. And those are phenomenal. But I want somebody to try my whiskey. I wanted to take them back to Western days and enjoy it and it it's an unapologetic whiskey. It's it's a big bold whiskey, and 1:04:33 I'm really proud of it. The other thing that we didn't talk about is the cage that's on there. So when I was young, there was a the cork and cage cage holds the cork and when I was young, I'd watch TBS in the morning and saturday morning cartoons and then if it rained, the later it got old movies Come on. And there was an old movie where they were transporting nitroglycerin in a wagon, and they had wired all the bottles in 1:05:00 So it wouldn't bounce. And when I started making high proof whiskey, I'm like, we got to wire the cork on. And so that's where that cage comes from. Gotcha. Gotcha. Now we know there's a story to everything. Really. There is my watch. Yeah. My watch is my dad's watch. And every time I shake it down, it reminds me of home. Yeah, go. Cool. Very cool. Well, Michael, thank you again for coming over here coming on the show. And of course, sharing your whiskey with us. I think it's an incredible story of what you've built and the team that's building this and you know, the direction it's going as well. I think everybody's pretty excited for really the future of what this is going to entail for you. Thank you. Same here, Kenny and Ryan. very appreciated to be on the show. And yeah, that's, you know, we have experimental batch called the E. We love to experiment. I love making my whiskey. I love selling it. I love giving it away to people to try it. tastings and even people I meet give them a bottle. 1:06:00 Cuz they'll share it. And I love that. So I really appreciate today. Thank you guys. Absolutely Yeah, no, thank you for coming. It was a true inspiration. I mean, most companies we have on air even if they're new they go out and get big time investments or you know, get a lot of cash flow to back them up and like to hear somebody just go source parts from Craigslist, not kidding. But, uh, just, you know, just wanting to do something and find a way to like, make it happen is like, It's so inspiring to me. I think it's a very cool story and I'm excited for the brand. It's, gosh, the rise awesome. I love the really good things like thanks so much. But uh, yeah, it's, um, it was a pleasure talking to you and hearing all your stories, for sure. I'd be a part of it. Absolutely. And so make sure you follow distiller to 91 on all the social medias. give a shout out as well as your address where people can go and visit 1647 South 200 Street, Colorado Springs, Colorado. And o

"It's not about the food..." Michael Hays had the same realization a lot of us probably have had: social media is really all that "social." Despite having tons of friends, he rarely interacted with them. So Michael set a goal for 2019: have lunch with a different friend every week of the year without fail. If that sounds hard, it's because it is. What were his challenges? How did people respond? And most importantly, what did Michael learn along the way? Second Shot Sit-Downs is an in-depth look at the people who inspire us, from your friends at Second Shot! This interview series is meant to highlight the types of people we talk about on the show: the people who really embody that idea of taking a Second Shot at business, at relationships, at life.

Christmas eve is one of the only days during the season when there are no college basketball games to watch. So Michael and Matt got together to talk FSU's best lineup as well as who from the current roster will be playing in the NBA. Plus they hand out plenty of holiday gifts, debate the merits of ham (the food, not the coach), and drink a little whiskey.

All right. Welcome back to the gut check project. This is now episode number 25. With your host, Dr. Kenneth Brown. I'm Eric Rhaegar. And can today we got an awesome guest, Michael Williams joins us.Well, like always, one of the coolest things about the gut check project is that we check our ego at the door. And once again, we brought in an expert. And we spent the last two hours being schooled on some stuff that we should have been schooled on a long time. Exactly. We don't know anything about Mike. How you doing?Pretty good. How you doing? You don't go by my hair. I go by Michael. Michael. See, that's what I did. I did it wrong.Yeah. Well, the one thing that we've done wrong a lot is the lighting in the studio, the green screen. We're having fun with trying to learn how to do this. So as it turns out, Michael is an expert in video green screen. He has been doing this for a long time, and we're going to get into that. And if you're a podcast or if you like watching this stuff, you're going to understand that everything is not as quite as easy as it meets theeye. You said something earlier like you know, Eric, one thing I really like is just talking to experts. Regardless of the field and that's what we're doing today.Yeah, well we had the financial experts on we had CBD takeout we've done Marisol, the queen of Thrones who's interestingly an expert in pooping which but that's very separate from what Michael does.But well I do that.Well, interestingly, I know that will do quid pro quo on this. I happen to be an expert in that in pooping, not in lighting. So since if we should trade back in the day, you helped us out with lighting, I'll make sure you poop. Okay.Appreciate that. Well, awesome. Let's do a quick rundown today. We're going to talk quick update on thanksgiving for all three of us. And then we have a new unboxing that we're going to share with everybody in the gut check project. Then we're going to hop right over to what Michael does best. Absolutely. So Thanksgiving, I I'll just go and start. I went over to my brother's house, Brad hosted we fried Turkey. We baked a turkey. We ate a lot of food. I had a blast. Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. I don't really have Any crazy details about it we just we played games we hung out my family, his family, my mom, we had a great time. Why is it your favorite holiday? There's no pretense around Thanksgiving. You just it's family coming together hanging out and spending time we we bonded over some some athletic events, football and basketball. We watched on TV. We played games. The entire time we're together. You just eat great food. You get lazy. You wear pajamas. It'snice. You know what, you're right. It's kind of like there. Michael, how was your Thanksgiving?It was wonderful. We had our first Thanksgiving in our new house. So we just bought a house in McKinney and you know moved in of mccamey. Peru. Yeah. Okay. But, and we've been there just a couple of months and we had four of our kids there. So for a six right for the six. Yes, we have our six one on either coast, New York and Brooklyn and everyone in Burbank in California. And, you know, we think they could make I think I'll be here for Christmas. We ate you know that all the turkey and the green bean casserole and lots of sweets and then afterwards, retired to the backyard with a single malt Scotch in a cigar. Oh, that sounds. And you know, it's the only holiday that it's really you're expected to watch football so it was kind of fun. Ranwell I decided to not be quite as this particular Thanksgiving I decided that it was my time to take the family on vacation. And so we went to my wife's from Puerto Rico and we went to Puerto Rico but I chose at almost 52 decided to pick up a new sport which is surfing, because I've seen Point Break and you know a lot of others. And so as it turns out, it's hard, man, but it's rewarding now. So cool. So I took the family to Puerto Rico for a week and it was really cool, sat on a beach made some good friends and some Virginia people that were sharing the house. With us, and it was it was exactly what Thanksgiving supposed to be, which is be with family have some fun. It was not relaxing, like watching football, but it was relaxing, like drifting in the ocean. So it was super cool. And I hope that everybody out there had a great Thanksgiving as well.Yeah, I hope so too. Hey, let's get to it. You want to get to the unboxing?Alright, so let's talk about the unboxing. So why don't you hold up the box. So we're having some great feedback, what we've been learning. So in my clinical practice, I know that there are certain supplements that can change people's lives. And one of the biggest frustrations that people have is that they don't understand what to take. Well, we took it upon ourselves to vet certain science backed supplements, which have Certificate of analysis so that I know what affects people. So every time somebody comes into my office, they go, Oh, I've been taking this and nothing happened. What have you been taking? Well, let, let me give you the brand that I've researched and then they start seeing some changes in their life. So what we want to do is change the landscape of our community so that people become healthier. So every month, somebody can get a box called the KB MD health box, which is, comes with a little love letter and explains everything just like this. And what we want to do is offer products that can change your life. So Michael, for you, what we're going to do is explain what this box is, okay? And what this does is we want to make sure that certain things, protect your gut, help your brain help you sleep better, and if I can get those three things done, you're going to be a better person, you're going to be able to like crazy studios, you're gonna be able to do your movies and all that stuff at next level stuff. So Ericsson go through each product this month, this is just this month. unboxing. So first product, no mystery are trying to we talked a lot about it on sale. So we talked about that otra until a sponsor of the show our Tron teal is my baby. We developed this specifically for one of the only products which has been proven to help with bloating. But not only that the polyphenols in it helped with anti aging and anti inflammatory processes. So we know that everybody needs to be on this, you're going to be seeing a lot of information about this, about these molecules in the future. We're cutting edge on this super proud to have this in the box. Retail Price Is $40 3995.Save a lot. And the cool thing that that letters you get to see how much yeah, sobasically what we're getting at here is that the total cost of this box is about $270. And you get this sent to your house every month where we free at a fraction of the cost of $147. Awesome.Also another core product megasporeThanks for probiotics, so megaspore probiotics, so this is very confusing for people everybody comes up and asked me and they go, Hey, I'm on a probiotic Which one should I be on? I'm going to tell you one to be on a spore based biotic and what that means is that the probiotics, almost all of them get destroyed in our digestive tract, right? Because everybody says oh, they're good for me, but they really never make it to where they should be. We met kid on Krishnan who is the CEO and scientist behind this, we actually did a whole podcast with him if you want to geek out and look at this super cool stuff, but spore based biotics Plus Ultra and teal are synergistic, and they actually help diversify your bacteria. Brilliant dude. Next one is upgraded nano magnesium. Oh my goodness. Alright, so nano magnesium. A lot of people don't realize that we are actually deficient in magnesium and it's needed for cellular health. The reason why I love magnesium, because the nano encapsulated here crosses the blood brain barrier, calms your brain and actually helps replace your cellular magnesium, but helps you calm down in your brain so it's used also to sort of wind down at the end of the day. Next one really cool looking bottle. This is the Zen blend. So, Zen blend Zen blend is a fantastic blend of scientifically proven mushrooms. To help do exactly to augment what the magnesium is doing Reishi core topsis and a few other natural cow is in a Zen blend that helps you wind down at the end of the day. And a recent Joe Rogan episode where he had What's his name? Oh, the mushroom expert. Paul Stamets, Paul Stamets was talking about these specific mushrooms and how we all need to be on this for mental health and neuro regeneration. It's abrilliant episode. Thisis a this combination alone is absolutely insane. Because I'm on it. My kids are on it, everybody's on it. This actually helps you calm down deal with the world. Help your gut already and you start regrowing neural regenerative processes.Next one, turmeric and ginger,turmeric and ginger. We know that turmeric has been a staple of a lot of functional medicine people people take tumeric all the time. What's unique about the omeka Organics brand that we made a deal with here is that it has ginger omma and a few other ingredients that actually work to increase your nitric oxide, which Veysel dilates and allows you to absorb the tumeric. The ginger allows gastric movement of this and the omma has been shown to actually improve insulin sensitivity. So no joke. We've actually found a company and every one of these companies, we've talked to their CEOs, we've looked at their certificate of analysis, and we know that it's backed by science. If I'm going to take something like this, I'm going to help my insulin sensitivity. I'm going to make sure it gets absorbed. So that's one of my favorite versions of that.I mean, if you're an athlete, this is looking like a pretty solid box.Or if you're type one diabetic like I am, Oh, looksawesome. Holy cow. Absolutely. You're type one diabetictype one diabetic for almost 40 years.Yo, you're doing a group Great job of controlling your insulin because, or your sugar I'm sorry, because Type One Diabetes is a tough disease, autoimmune disease where these products we are now seeing that autoimmune disease starts in the gut. So this is one of the things we're trying to do is help all kinds of people but autoimmunity is one of the things that we're trying to fix. Also, believe it or not, we still have threeproducts left whatthe hell we'redone, we are not finished. Live wise naturals.Alright, so live wise naturals. This is interesting because it's something that I really have not thought about until my practice. Almost everyone I check is vitamin D deficient. And now we figured out that being vitamin D deficient is related to coronary vascular disease, dementia and autoimmune disease. Yeah, yeah. So all my Crohn's and colitis patients, all my ulcerative colitis patients, they all would I always check vitamin D and I always make sure We're up on that and the reason why is because we live in a society now where we put sunscreen on everything we are indoors. We've got fake lighting going on right now and we probably just don't get enough sun and in our diet we're not getting the proper ingredients that are there. So almost everyone is vitamin D deficient.The next one I believe is straight from New Zealand The Balm of Gilead manuka honey stickAlright, so this is the one I've been waiting for. And here's why. Alright, so manuka honey has many medicinal properties. But I put this in the box this month because we're heading into the winter months. You can see on my lips I am chat chat chat. So I've been waiting for this one so I can do the rest of the show. Because he's applying it is literally I'm applying it to my lips right now. Because manuka honey, this is straight out of New Zealand and you'll never be able to find something like this here with it actually has real stuff. Remember when you get on and you start looking at Walmart and cheap things. You get what you pay for bottom line, like lighting,green screen effects and whatever. You know a cool thing is if you order from us and get a kBm D health box, every single stick of manuka honey is applied to Dr. Brown's lips first.Yesthat is my signature. It's like welcome back this onethat is not true that is a true freshman who got me got a seal on it and everything but the whole thing about manuka honey is it actually has a tremendous medicinal properties. This is actually a vegan version, grass fed all this other things you know, I said these grass, grass fed vegan vegetablesno but it's the distro and take a look at it. It's it's fantastic stuff.The next one I'm going to go ahead and kind of hijack it because there is my green pills, which is awesome. If you're interested in having healthy products around Your home. My green fills is an all natural laundry detergent refillable laundry wash. So if you don't want to have more waste, you can order mail order from my Greenfield. And in your box you can have your very first container sent to you with laundry wash. And the cool thing is is whenever you need more wash, they just send you just this packet. You save this you just add water in our house Murray subscribe to my green pills almost two years ago. Kids love it. Your clothes smell clean and fresh. That also comes with a rinse. It's it's a beautiful thing. You save water you save a waste, and you basically save the environment we're on a septic system is this basically protects everything that we have.So two quick things. Number one, I'm probably wrong on that particular maneuver being vegan. I don't think it is vegan. I think it's a tallow grass fed tallow balm. So if you're vegan, it might not be Good for your butt or you want to use it, but that is my that's probably my misstep. But the most important thing is here with my green fells. We know this the CEO of his company, Mr. Stephen is out and the things he does for the world. He has the my angels. Oh, yeah. What is that? The guy, Stephen, I apologize if I screw up the name. But essentially, he uses proceeds from this company and two others that he runs. And what they do is they take some of their money, they have a charitable arm, and they specifically go out and find women who've been victims of the slave trade. they negotiate with their captors, release them and then give them employment. They don't just free them and say, well, you're free now go find your way. No, they they actually will hand so the dryer angels that you write to the function as an all natural fabric softener whenever you subscribe to my greenfields It's a beautiful program. Stephen is a huge philanthropist. And he is Yeah, he started his whole business when he had nothing with knowing that the first 10% of everything that he earned would be going to charity. And now he is actually driving and he's the one that came to us and he's the one that's powering the member box. And that's why we're so honored to be involved with somebody who is so charitable, giving back and helping lives day to day but bottom line is the KVM D member box you if you take this, this is what I take every single day. The manuka honey will probably change out when it comes springtime, we'll find something more spring related. Eventually we're going to get to a point where we're going to have the perfect mix and change the health landscape so that people like Michael, that chronically deal with tight you know, issues like type one diabetes or anything, we can start making a difference in their lifekBm D health box calm that's kbd health box.com you can order your own health box this month. This is what's featured In the in this current month if you were to sign up, like and share, like and share not only the gut check project like it should just this episode to tell someone tell a family member or a friend, I want you to start living better. Check out what this box is about, save some money delivered to your home. You don't have to think about it. Everything's been vetted by position you, Dr. Brown, and essentially, let's, let's start off the year 2020 on the right foot, and wegot one last little bonus with that if you become a member of this. Oh, one other thing that I think makes a huge difference people's lives is CBD oil, yes. or full spectrum hemp. And if you become a member, you get steep, steep discounts. As a special gift to get our CBD oil, you get a code that allows you to get it dirt todirt cheap at KB MD health. And if you've been to the website in the last 11 days, 10 days, you've seen that the store is now fully operational. We had an incredible weekend. Thank you for everyone who participated in Black Friday, Cyber Monday. That was fun.Are we going to start with discounts there? I don't think so. I mean, we want we don't want cost to be a barrier to entry for people to have quality CBD. So one of the things that we want to do and our mission is not to just say, Oh, the whole reason for having this box is so that we can get these quality products out at an affordable level. We just want to make we just want to change lives. I want to be like Stephen as well, and I want to make a difference in the world. That's the primary goal here and I believe that we are all Endocannabinoid deficient. And next week, when we talk, I'm going to get way into this FDA statement where they're saying we don't know if CBD is safe. We don't know this and that. I've got all the data on this and it's really fascinating. You may even be a two part show, but that's going into that so keep in mind that everyone probably needs some CBD. We're going to give you the best quality CBD at the best price action fraction of the price right and all of these things delivered to your home so that we can bring health to your home. That's the first part of the show. Now the coolest part,our guests, our guests again, this is Michael Williams. Now Michael, you told me before we got started you have your own company called creative eco correct? I do I do based in McKinney, Texas, as to McKinney. So tell us a little bit about it.So creative echo is what I like to call it a micro agency. So I've been in video production for quite a while when we get this mic in the right place. Usually I have a wireless lavavideo guy. I'm a video guy. I'm not a radio guy. But Butwhy do I feel like he just started the show with I came down here to your really rinky dinkSo, yeah, I was sitting there working on the Star Wars set and somehow I ended up hereI like a car battery lights andSo you guys called me to come down to you know, kind of do some consulting because I do a production video production maneuver about 30 years and, you know, back 16 millimeter three quarter all the way through the digital age and now finally file based digital, you know, so I worked as a graphics operator for live news, hated that get type and then became what I call paint monkey I started doing paint graphics and you know, animation doubler paint system, which is eons old, and then got my first Mac and 1988 I think it was the one yeah, it was it was a two X and actually was doing non compressed video in and out of the Mac in 1988 frame by frame, but it was not compressed. Is that still floppy disk and just as it didn't have floppy disk, okay. Yeah, the three and a half floppies. And you know, scuzzy to Loud chattering thing but and then hooked up to a regular tape deck and broadcast tape deck and we go out frame by frame by frame by frame and I was out putting animation from agencies you know all over the US getting them to tape sending them their video tape so they go into video production post production and actually cut their animation into their spot or whatever they were doing. Sure. So you know I did that for a while and then started my company when I got that Mac I was in post production at the time doing the paint workto back you up a little bit. Were you educated in this at that time?Yeah, I actually have a Bachelor of Fine Arts in video and film production andso this is so they actually had that degree were there you were there really hard on the back and all that.We didn't have Mac I mean the Lisa was out when I was in college but you know we did they were dedicated systems and you know, for very good, butwhat is the lead? I mean, I feel likeLisa is like one of the first production max that hit the market. Okay, and then you get the bat classic the big square box in the two X, you know, it was about this big that all heavies about anchor and you know I had a one gigabyte hard drive and my system had eight megabytes of RAM. So that was awesome back thenI'll just slow Yep,yeah but i mean i'm sure then it was fastthen it was it was state of the art there's only a couple of these in the country you know with a new VISTA card in it and being able to pull in component video non compressed. So it was a lot of fun. And so you know, I've been in production for quite a while and now I have the what I call the micro agency because I've been given away creative I'm a creative at heart. I'm technical by necessity, but I have a you know dichotomy every morning I wake up and which brain is going to win, you know, the creative side, the left to the right side, you know, and I can set up roll anything technically just about any piece of equipment in production. And then on the other side of the camera and then produce something fun and creative and you know, meaningful that, you know, tells a story. Sowhen you're doing the productive side, does the creative side start kicking and regrow, I see where this is going to end up.And without a doubt, I mean, I never lose sight of the creative, you know, the creative vision. And you just technically you want to learn how to augment that vision and make it better, you know, and tell the story better. Nobody's gonna do effects. If it's not telling the story, you hope it's not helping tell the story. So it's like you'rea director of a movie every single time you do any ad roll anything,pretty much. So I didn't mean to pop that there. But yeah, so I will step in as a producer, a director. I'll get behind the camera as a director of photography, and then I'll pull the footage and avid an added for about 30 years and do all of my cutting, and then do some of the compositing there or jump in After Effects, do some multi layer compositing and turn it out to the audio design. And push it out encoded and away we go. So that's on the production side of things I do a lot of live streaming will go into corporate places and we'll set up set up a multi camera and live switch with video roles, you know audio stingers music I mean a full production and what live switch it and away we go.So you said that you had if I understood you correctly back when you were in the in the early stages of before you started creative eco You said you did live news.I worked at Fox News that's where I was first hired out of college was it channel was a channel four thenit was actually down in Houston. Oh down in Houston. Okay, what's a tale 26 Okay, hey, okay. Alrighty. So I'm just kind of curious, leading to what you just said that you've done on the creative side from doing the lighting and seeing the vision. What did you not like about doing live news compared to now doing a full creative production what was what were the limitations and doing a live news broadcast compared to thisalive news by Cast, everybody has a single position and you're an expert, that single position, you know, and it takes a crew, you know of people, obviously your director, your technical director, your producer, your camera guys, your audio guys, your graphics guys, and you know, all of the research that then goes on way before that and leads into it.I mean,I do a lot of different things and I, you know, I get bored easy. So if I'm sitting on a camera, I'm gonna sneeze, you know, if it's multiple days, day in, day out. So I like to jump around and learn and I've been learning for 30 years and you know that that was why I got out alive is plus I can't type fast so and I was a Cairo operator, which was doing the live CDs, you know, that show up right here in the lower thirds. But it just wasn't creative enough. And Funny enough, it was the same format, the same grind, just different content. And I like to change things up a bit and have some fun.So let's see the reason why I was asking that questions. It seems to me that what you did is the evolution of where everyone is intuitively going to get their information. Now, when I was growing up, everybody watched the news. My parents watched the news in it. I don't really know anybody who really watches traditional news like they used to certainly not in the same numbers, certainly not by by percentage or capital, right. So you left the stodginess in the in the like you sent me is almost sound like you were describing a sterile environment for the way things were represented in now you're creative in what you want to do. podcast, people turn to podcasts more than they do traditional new shows. It's it's really interesting that that was what you just did, intuitively, on your own. That's what everyone's doing.Exactly. And it's interesting because this this kind of shows the level of knowledge it's actually required to do something at the level that you're now doing things. So you have all these people that want to do YouTube videos, you have all these people want to do things we brought you in today, and you start looking at the studio and You just went, Okay. So this is why it doesn't look as good as it should. And you started going into such detailed analysis, which is so cool, because really what I want this show to be, is let's talk about the technical aspects because a lot of people want to say, Oh, I want to have my kitchen show for even my prank, hundred audience, whatever. So let's start breaking this down a little bit. Let's start looking at what we're dealing with here, what you changed up and the simple changes that you made for the lighting.Okay, so when I came in, and of course, we're using what we have. And we've got some LED lights, we've got four LED panels, they they're probably about 400 LEDs at that at 300. Looking at them, LEDs per unit.So before we get into that, let's just back up a little bit. Remember, Eric and I, we came from spoonie studio that was all set up. And we had so much fun doing that we got such great feedback from everybody. We're like, let's just keep going but it's been Eric and I tried to do this and Well you know what maybe we should bring in somebody like Michael who actually kind of knows and so he came in and looked at what we have and okay. The greatest thing you said was let's let's work with what you got.I mean anybody can set up a studio you know he got he got a budget man, you got a real budget you can get, you know, real life real cameras, you know, you guys have great mics obviously. But, you know, on a budget, you can still set up a pretty professional looking studio. You know, if you don't have the money, the hundred hundred 50 bucks per light, sure for the LEDs. You can go to Home Depot, get a lighters, a Pinterest lighting kit, you know the little aluminum with a little clip on and then get a compact fluorescent daylight. That's the keys. You want it to be the same color temperature and 56 K or daylight is what you want. Otherwise, you're gonna look orange, and you know what's the balance of that? But you get one of those bulbs, the brightest one they have you put it in there and get two or three of those, light it up and you can do that for 3040 box you know,so if I'm a so if I'm somebody that is starting out with my podcast, or I want to be a YouTuber I want to describe something by can go to Home Depot and you're saying Say that one more time it's 56 K.So what you want to look for is your 56 K is 5600 degrees Kelvin, which is the light temperature of which sunlight is roughly a shade is a little bit lower. And then you go all the way down to the old school, the amber looking lights, you know, your mom and dad's lights as they're watching the news on live TV. Nobody's using but those are, you know, either tungsten or incandescent, but burns at a much lower temperature and it's warmer, brighter, the light, the more blue or white It is so and you can produce in any light temperature as long as they're all the same. If you mix it up then one has color orange or red one parts can be blue, like we set up in here and tuckson and we open the window blue lights going to come inReno is the interesting thing that he did. I mean, you gave us credit for thinking about backloading. That's pretty much where amount of your knowledge guessing knowledge stop. And then immediately you got you started drawing diagrams about how you're going to make light angles cross and cross each other to even out. Right. Sothe issue we had here is one of real estate, its space sure we don't have the space that we need to, you know, create a nice, your piece of trust or something to hang our lights evenly at the same distance from the green screen for the background. So we had to go to the corners and then light across and to get it as flat as possible so that the green goes away and whatever you want goes there. So we cross the lights and it evens it out a little bit. And there's still some hot spots, we spent maybe less than an hour You know, coming in and looking around and say, Okay, let's make this work. And you know, it looks pretty good. There's a couple of hot spots, but for the most part, that Greedo key out one click, and you put whatever you want back there.It's pretty sweet it's it's really cool and I think it's pretty sweet when he came in so so where do you guys train at I'm like I'm a button doctoroh boy calls his wife says honey I'm gonna be I'm gonna be a little later and I thoughtI was about so when I leave herewhy why this fieldmy wife asked me that every day because it is not a nine to five job you know we get up at the crack of dawn we drive to a location we set up in we bring the truck all the stuff to set up and then we film all day and you know of course golden hour is you know, really our right after sunrise and you know, the hour right before sunset. That's the best lighting of your shooting outside. So we're shooting from you know, dawn to dusk, and then we gotta break everything down and pack it up and drive back so not a nine to five my wife's like, could you just be you know, a dentist or a CPA or something stay home. Yeah, Ithere's Dennis and CPAs going. That's pretty much myYeah, so, butI'm trying to think of jobs now that like are just, oh crna That's it. That's the one job.But it's a lot of fun and and I tell people, you know, whenever they ask, you know, why do you through a six I haven't worked a day in my life. You know, I have so much fun. I love what I do. It's different every day. The topics are different, you know, I'm worrying about you know, gut check and you know, and that's important to me being a type one diabetic, you know, it's like, everything is based on metabolism and you know, you can't metabolize anything if your guts not working right so you know, it's your I go hang out with a helicopter and film you know, do air to air filming or climb up 200 feet on the tower and 200 feet out on your big crane and, and then heights. No, no, I'm kind of an adrenaline junkie. Oh, and then clip in and lean back and a camera and film The guy talking to me who's out on the Yeah would be fun. That was a lot of fun. And so I never know what I'm going to be filmingso you actually don't actually carry the cameras and stuff. Are you directing it? Are you are youIt depends.Are you that on wall guy thatNetflixsat there and I actuallyI can't sit idle crew I drive him crazy because I hire crew and then I go do it and butit's like you're hiring them to come watch you.I always admired the people that got the camera shot more than the person doing it. You watch Bear Grylls do his stuff.Yeah,climbs trip just like there's somebody up there already filming you. That'sfine. Bad is bad. Yeah.Or they're doing the terrain like down a steep mountain where there's where there's snow ski, and you gotsomebody else don't even have poll.Exactly the real hero to everything is The person that gets the shotyeah definitely camera man or you know the unsung heroes of productionyeah get to the bottom of the run these posing and you look at the camera guys missing a leg shotI love you.But yeah, like I said I started out as a graphics operator I thought I wanted to be a digital artist you know, I wanted to be an artist some sort and when I went into college, I want to be a starving artist. So I got a technical background and then started editing and fell in love with editing because that's where the story is really told you can have horrible footage and a great editor and come out with something that's pretty darn good. And you got great footage and a horrible editor and it comes out like crap that has no job.So the editing, I actually so I downloaded Final Cut Pro 10 you know to try and do some stuff with ABS and with zero training and oh my gosh, like all things it is it's so frustrating and You just you just get immediate humility. Anytime that I try and do anything that somebody else is really good at and you're like, oh, wow, I know what I can do. I can do a rectal, really good. But beyond that now I don't know.Yeah, well, I mean, it gives you tired head you look at it and then after a while you get frustrated because it you it's not nearly as intuitive as you want it to be. Right. Right.And not not right away anyway. Yeah, I mean, there is a deep learning curve on any editing software. Yeah, it's gotten so much easier. It wasn't a past.Yeah, what you're talking about it with the equipment you were using and what they're able to do. I was thinking about this when you were saying that I'm thinking of movies now that I watch. I was like, Wow, those graphic effects can Assad and you realize they're pretty amazing for the equipment that they had?Oh, yeah,a lot of those without an optically you know, with film up until you see, you know, digital was there but not for film quality. And do you know you could get on a flame or fire your discrete logic big system you have the size of refrigerator the computers and onyx in get all in stock frame by frame but you get up to K images. Now we you know take it off a micro SD card drop it in a way we go, you know, a lot has changed and it's got a lot a lot higher resolution and a lot smaller form factor so makes you know, your creative vision easier to to maintain and keep focused on instead of having to worry about too much of the year. You remember Terminator?Oh, yeah. That was a huge fan favorite for my my friends and I growing up was Terminator one. And then when finally Terminator two came out with the T 1000. And it became it was already animated. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I didn't even know what to think. I remember seeing that and looking back at Terminator one saying I love Terminator one, but I don't know what this is.And this is amazing. That is a great question. So as somebody who's an expert that has been from the beginning and you you continue to evolve Which is also very fascinating to me because I would think that a lot of your people that were doing it with you back in the day have probably gone on to different fields. You're probably one of the few people that has stuck with the industry for 30 years and grown with the technology.Yeah, there's, there's more of a thing you might think but you know, a lot of people will move on or just, you know, move into something different. But, you know, technology is definitely definitely changing. You've got to keep up with it. Are you going to get lost?So as a as an editor, what movie when I asked you what is your favorite movie that you look at and you go from a technical aspect? This is brilliant.Well, there's I don't have one favorite movie.But there are there are several if you want to go back to one of the classics, you know, Citizen Kane, I mean, look at the the editing they did the opening scene where they push through a window. How the heck did they do that back then, you know, it's like you know, there's some music videos out there that are single shots. No editing just a single shot the whole time real time Yeah. It's I think was Madonna was the first one to do that. And of course you know Guy Ritchieall that's rise,you know her bow at the time and you know, so he was doing some cutting edge stuff, but I don't I don't know don't quote me that he actually directed that but i would assume so butwas the movie I'm sorry to interrupt but what was the movie that had? Was it the Birdman or something that was like no or yes for being it had something special about the way that they filmed it. Michael Keaton MichaelKeaton I'm not real familiar with the verb I didn't watch rightyeah, I think it was one take I think it was one stream or so I don't remember those shots I'm only didn't showthe whole movie but yeah, they really kind of embedded that and you know, it's fun to be able to tell the story and not have to cut away you know, to be able to just because we don't cut we don't blink and Okay, another shot. Yeah, we turn our heads we move. We will as Humans that's more natural for us to see the world that way. So it's, it's interesting that people are finally getting back to the way that human eye perceives reality rather than forcing your brain to take the story you want them to you. So you're cutting away to something you want them to see rather than turning and showing them you know, the way you would normally turn with your head or something like that.Well, what's also fascinating about this is because of the YouTube phenomenon, the the non commercialize the non the non perfected type videos like our podcast,yeah. Well, they're there. They can be more authentic. They're raw.Yeah, they're real and they're not overproduced. Which you know, you can over produce things very easily.Okay, so that brings up a different point. So with your production company, you probably run into all different types of different requests from customers of all different hills. High End corporate, low end a I just want to make a quick video. Is it hard to explain Blame to the over corporatize customer, hey, you really need to inject some personality here. Whether or not they take your advice could be completely different situation. But do you find that that's that's difficult to do even in today's world where that seems to be what people readwithout a doubt, you know, it's all based on their personality, and it's not something they do all the time. They're not a TV personality. They're not a radio personality. They're a CEO of a tech corporation or, you know, whatever, and you gotta pull the stick out. Sometimes, you know, you being that kind of doctor, you got to pull that stick out and let them loosen up. I don't usesticks in my job. everybody listening, please don't worry that I'm gonna use a stick.You're pulling out little little loosen up a little bit. Yeah, that'snever loosens everybody up when you go to sleep.But, you know, you got to get them loosened up and you got to get them to forget about the camera and the environment and then just talk to them. You know, I have You know, CEOs will come in, they'll have a script and they're, they're ready to just regurgitate that script, like, okay, let's read through it. And I'm like, do you know teleprompter here, you know, what's that? Like? Okay, well read through the script one more time. And we're gonna put down. It's like, No, no, no, no freak out like, no, we're just going to talk about it. I'm going to ask you questions, and you're going to respond. And we're going to get the real story, not, you know, something that's been too legal that we have to go through the legal later. But, you know, at least it's from the heart. And it's real. It's authentic.We were, I've, like we were talking about before Eric, Eric's father. Well, but I didn't actually tell you about this. But the reason why Eric is so good at sound is because his dad was actually involved in radio most of his life. And so Eric was around this and enjoyed it. And his dad taught him and he was a musician and Eric's a musician. And tell me about that real quick. Oh, yeah. I mean, that my dadwas, he was grew up in Gainesville. And my dad when I was by the time I was born, he was the sports Director for the small kgs radio station which is still there today. And he also was a DJ out there at the radio station. He had plenty of friends all throughout DFW there were also in radio, dad played a self taught piano, drums, bass guitar, and he just, he was a true audio file without ever using the word. I mean, he's loved it. And so whenever he would toy around and tinker with stuff and mix with sounds, I just thought it was cool. Didn't have any idea. I was getting an education on it. And then within this opportunity presented itself and there's a lot of fun. So that's something when you when you say things that you never really worked a day in your life playing around with stuff like this, to me is just, it's fun. It's sick people that say like to tinker and this is just Yeah,and I get to do it. You know, just about every day. It is a lot of fun. And there's a lot of hard work that goes all ofus. All of us are not working but one of us is getting paid.That's right as consultantButso you know, technology has really enabled anybody to, you know, kind of pick up a camera and, you know, do a webcast or podcast or you know, even you know, cut it and don't do it live, you know, you can post it later.So we, we've got a lot of different experts that they can talk to to help us both with the podcast and in a whole bunch of different facets. So one of the people that helps us with this show Now, of course, there's Ron Phillips, who's been on the show before. And then Paul Rogers is the guy that helps us cut and basically create promos, all the stuff that we're not any good at. And Paul does a fantastic job. He's really been helping give us some different guidance on how to move through topics and sometimes you don't stick to it all the way but we're trying to and but Paul is actually helping put together a package for a small city in North Texas to help, record and transmit their city council meeting. They were ready to throw down something like $100,000 on equipment and Paul's like, okay, you could also save $90,000 and let me help you with that. And it's amazing because you're right, the technology really is not that inaccessible anymore. No, not at all. And it's crazy because people just want to spend the money thinking they're getting the best andbrightest and it doesn't want that. So if I am a I'm an up and coming YouTuber, because I saw this fantastic stat where it's like Generation Y like 30% of the kids want to be youtubers isthere I want to be YouTube famous or famous, Snapchat famous or you know, whatever the whatever. Snapchat so I guess waning a little bit but Tick Tock or whatever knocking whatever is all the rage down, which is musically rehashed, I think butso it's it's fascinating because Eric's Eric's kids gage and Mac actually were taking classes during high school on Final Cut Pro Which, which is what the class that his high school chose to do. And so now kids are coming out and they're learning this kind of thing. So as an expert seeing all of it, I'm a, I'm a dad. My kid is graduating, they've kind of done pretty well with playing around with different things. I want to give them a graduation present, which would be an audio and video package. Let's say less than $2,000 What would you dothe laptop in that or no, no, no, no, they'vealready already got a laptopand something you know fairly. This just so that you can sitthere like I'm thinking of gates. I'm thinking of the dangerous off to college. He's done a great job. They've got a they've got their the floaty thing, what's the drone?So they've got it. So theonly thing would be a balloon. Yeahin my generation anything we got off the ground was a floating thingthat floated a flag that says that's a fly dad it floats defies gravity to defies gravity. So whether you're a drone or a fly, right, throw a rock for all the same. So if I'm going to sit there and give a graduation present, we got Christmas coming up and you say, Listen, my child's really into this. They're kind of doing some small YouTube videos and stuff like that. Where are what would I give them like as a package gift, and I know I'm putting you on the spot here. But like if you didn't get allyour children, I would get a good either DSLR or you know, the new mirrorless digital cameras are awesome. And make sure it's you can change out the lens in that way you can grow into it. My personal favorite, Michael pop and again,my production never never actually showed up. Somy personal favorite would be At this point in time yo cannon five D but that's more expensive the body on that you know three grand oh but you can get something I mean they shot house several episodes of house you know with the Canon five D and we can put them in places that you can't put the other cameras here the bigoh that makes sense so that like you got this you can come in hereand it's just it's just a great format you know of course I'm a Canon guy I've always loved canon, more so than Sony but Sony makes a great product says Panasonic you know I've got a Panasonic camera that I use for you know EMG production but we get something that if you can has an interchangeable lens DSLR type and they're gonna become cheaper because the mirrorless are out. And so maybe a wide angle or fixed 50 lens. And my favorite lens on the five D is my 7200 L series beautiful lands you get that nice soft that the field gorgeous lands. You know, but again that's a more expensive plans.No no fortunately we're sponsored by all these products you're talking about. Yes. Yeah.So just to recap so I would get you know a the best DSLR you can afford with you know, a decent lens and you can get one that is wide enough that has a zoom a little bit so you can zoom in and get different focal length. A good microphone. And you know, you could get aWhat do you say good microphone attached to the camera or you mean a lapel micon what they're doing, you know, for a podcast, you know, these are great studio mics. If you're out in the field. You might want to get a wireless love or a wire, you know, boom or shotgun mic. You use different mics for different environments for different reasons. But just get road makes a great cheap mic that will hit on the on the hot shoe, plug right in the mini and it's not bad. It's a shotgun mic right on top of the camera. Very, very affordable. And then you know, maybe a light kit depending on what they're doing. They may not Don't need it but lights you know, it's all reflecting light, you don't have light it's going to reflect nothing and you're not gonna see any more black so you gotta have enough light and as we found out earlier that was your issue with your green screens earlier is that you didn't have enough light on the green and you know that wasn't enough. I guess Chroma difference. So isso is there are there are there light kits that come with multiple lights and you can do different things.Oh yeah. And you know, LEDs are wonderful. Now we didn't have the luxury of using LEDs. When I was coming up in production but LEDs, you know, it's a small form factor. It's super bright, you know, you can even go to Walmart or Home Depot or any Batteries Plus actually has some great LED panels that are battery powered. And you get a little skinny arm which is you know, a quarter 20 thread that can go in the hot shoe or you know on the camera or clamp on and you can put the light up here and you got to Gun light. very affordably.Even. That is so cool because if the the number of lights that we have in here right now to get this amount of light back 20 years ago, we would be sweating.Yes. Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, I mean it would be incredibly hot in here if it weren't because of the heat on the I'm sweatingby the way. Sowhat is what you say? Yeah, it would be worseYeah, I refused to like you know, everybody raise your hand like no no way.Well, and then wait, final thing. So now Okay, so as a dad,graduation gift is the expensive camera. You talk to the uncle that says Look, this is this is kind of thing we're dealing with. He's graduating. Why don't you do the lights? Why don't you know aunt Karen, you do the mic. And then what are we gonna do to video edit it.So there are some good software's out there. You can get some cheap, almost free software. out there some of you know, but you get what you pay for. Probably I would say the best bang for the buck because you get a whole suite would be the Creative Cloud, you know, just do the Adobe Suite, get the production bundle so that you get Premiere Pro, which is a great editing software, you get after effects, you get Photoshop, you get Illustrator. I mean, depending on how much you want to pay per month, you can get the whole suite and do whatever you want. You know, they've got you know, soundbooth they've got, you know, all kinds of different tools, and you're paying like 59 bucks a month or 50 bucks a month for that. That would be the best but to go out and buy something you know, I'm an avid guy, Bill and Avid Media Composer. It used to be $100,000 on a system and then it came down to the price point recently and it was like two grand for the software and they just recently have gone back to The same model Adobe is with a monthly subscription is about 30 bucks a month as well okay? But there are some out of the box stuff depending on your Mac or PC. But the main thing you want to look for, you know is your edit interface you don't want to think about what you're doing you want to cut a story and just kind of have it the you know, just very natural you know, the whole way that the layout is the way you know the premiere let's see your change your your edit desktop, you know, avid wants to change your desktop. I think you leave had some real super cheap stuff, these come with the DVD stuff, and you can cut on that even you know, the iMovie you know, on a Mac, you can do some things there. Certainly from the presets because everybody uses them and you know, my my opinion over use presets and overused graphics just because you think they're cool is kind ofcheapens it thinking what kind of it doesn't have to be graduation gift. I think we kind of a cool thing. It is Your children are going to be using this technology anyways, your children are looking at YouTube, they're already interfacing with this, they're already looking at this, then if you give them the ability to tell the stories that they want to tell, then you can start directing. Hey, we're going so and so's getting married. Why don't you cut some disco and bring your iPhone, just cut some film and then you can edit it, you have the equipment, bring the bring your road might bring your light, then you can start having a documentation of whatever you want, in a really cool way because everything that I have right now is just snippets from from the phone. Right and, and I and I have all these old I mean, I evolved very quickly when things started changing. I've got little mini cams, I got HD, whatever DVDs, and yet I've got, as Jim gaffigan says it's very funny. He does a whole set on. It's like we don't have photographs anymore. We just have hard drives, like Well, there's my hard drive from Disney World. And that's my Wedding harddrive and that that's where we're at right now. I'm like oh, but if you can convert things to little snippets and movies this is the two minute thing because if you're good at it and fast at it when you give a gift like this to a family member that actually uses it yeah you're buying memories.Oh yeah. Without without a doubt and most of us you know, we you know, probably probably about your age but grew up in the era where you know, is either film or is video Well I know we'rethe same age because the jokes I'm saying you're theso I mean, Christmas morning we wake up and you know, dad would flip on the super eight boom and then the lights come on. Boom. And we're like blind we're getting a headlights Yeah, we'll do something like I can't see any turn up lighting see spots for an hour? Yeah, yeah. Now you know, it's like you can you can if you get the footage and you never use these ever watch it you know it was on film you got to develop it and it's at the in the middle can for years and which is our family and recently a product of five years ago, maybe 10 years ago, digitized everything from my parents 50th color to music and, you know, did one, you know, a little segment for each of my siblings and for myself and then you started my parents and then you know, went through the whole family and all the way through there, you know, from literally black and white shot in the 50s on film, all the way through, you know, digital, almost so he was on that's cool. Hey, you know, and it was fun. It was a lot of fun took forever, never discount how long it will take to edit especially a project like that.Oh my goodness, a trust me that's that's the thing. That's why learning how to edit it. edit anything in a rapid way is the key. When you sit down to about the equipment when you sit there and say the lighting and everything. That's what everybody focuses on. When everything shuts down, and it's on your computer and you start looking at it. Eric has watched me and Paul will laugh at this who's who's helped me with through this I didn't realize that there's a lag when it comes to the way that we're recording and the audio and I will sit here for an hour and try and move a soundbite a millisecond so it matches so it doesn't look like an old kung fu movie right where Eric and I are talking like I'm telling you that wowyeah there's I mean depending on how you record and you know, you're recording you know, from your camera and you're running it into your laptop and running it through software and then it's running and running the file to your hard drive. Of course there's going to be some latency there you know, there's going to be it's not going to be real time there might be some audio drift depending on how you're recording and how your format is set up.So this was the but when when he first showed up and started talking like this, he's like, Oh, I can see what's going on right here. You can have a little bit light drag over here. We need to change this in this room have audio drifted, you can have lighting I just went different language. Yeah, totally different language you have a you have a skill set. That is unbelievable. And I love that you've kept this passion for over 30 years you said yeah for over 30 years and I've thank you so much for coming here and helping us set this up and hopefully be easier for Paul to post edit this and yeahyeah you probably got some helpso we can you know we set up pretty quickly and I didn't have time to tweak but it should be a lot better than it was and of course we do have some environmental issues but yeah, spaceyou knew where you were in trouble I was like okay, where are the makeup people?Yeah, yeah I always carry in makeup mean it's huge because if you're sweating and shiny I mean nobody wants to listen to you you know you're just You look like a shifty you know sweating bullets and you're like nobody's gonna believe so get some you know some corn silk so just a little powder and not knowwhat's up. Go check projects that shifty as Dr.Careful,little power. I mean little things like that go a long way and little cheaplittle powder goes a long way. We tried that once with Eric and it all got cut his upper upper mustache here and I'm like, Eric, you don't look like you were trying to hell and then I inhaled I caught it all out.A little powder. But what's the beard? Right? That's right.Well, Michael, thank you so much, Robin. My pleasure. This was this is only our 25th episode here on gut check project. But each episode, I feel like we're getting stronger. And now that we've, unfortunately had to try to build her own studio. We're we're learningYeah, and let's just go ahead and recap here. So what I think we learned what I got out of this episode number one is that we don't know a whole lot about there's experts in this field. But Michael, what I took away from this is is that you just gave a recipe for every father or mother to say my child likes to watch this. Now have a box that I can say, look, pull away from the computer, walk out into the world and do it yourself. Yes, start interacting with people again. Because that's one of the biggest things as we automate everything, and we isolate ourselves. It just leads to more and more of that depression and anxiety. And even though wherever, you know, even my children, they don't watch TV, but but though they have the YouTube people they watch and they've turned me on to some great YouTube people that I love some science stuff that I just geek out on, like, holy cow, and and of course, I sit there and I don't just watch it. But Lucas looks at me. He's like, isn't that cool? I was like, how did he edit?Yeah,I just look at that. Go. What? How did you get that angle? How did they zoom inlike that? That's crazy. Man. That's a cool point, though, too, because the technology and YouTube and these platforms aren't going anywhere. So what basically what you just said what Michael is just described on how to do it with that recipe is OK, so the technologies now going anywhere, how can I help my kids and my family members get back into being a human withback into being a human with this technology? One great way to do it is to put a mic in front of somebody and say, Michael, tell me about yourself.Give me Give me your story, your story. And you know, the great thing is that, you know, they're used to being in front of a laptop, and they've got this digital world. Well, they've got their little digital security blanket and a camera, you know, they that's theirdigital security behind so cool. It's so cool. You can sit there, give a gift to your introverted child and say, Look, you're really good at this. You don't even have that. People like being on camera. Yeah. So you can take somebody and say you're behind the camera, you're protected. Ask a question. People like to tell their story. And when you start engaging like that, then you can turn that story and you can make them look like a hero after editing and go back to them and say, here you go. Yeah, this is your story. You become the hero you control. What's going on, and you now have the ability to interact with people, people come to you and go, that was so cool what you did. And now as a parent, if your child is being a little introverted and stuff, you can sit there and teach them how to come out of their shell with a camera.Yeah. And it inspires creativity, you know, have fun thing to do is we gave my daughter I think she at the time was like 10 or 11. If we gave her my my five D, and she said, just go film some stuff. Let's have some fun. And she took around the house and shot all kinds of random weird stuff. And she's like, well, I want to make a perfume commercial. Perfect. Yeah, we didn't have Johnny Depp but we had this random thing. And it was it was awesome. Together 32nd spot and there's a lot of fun to see inside your kids brains. When you're not looking. You know, it's like what's going on in there. I had a lot of fun. That's cool.My son a few years ago had to do a commercial and you can do it like either written or recorded or whatever. And I came home and they showed me He got my daughter involved, my wife involved they wrote a whole script. And I just came home to watch the end product which was unedited. But it was so funny to watch that and so and it was so well done for an iPhone just right, right clip clip clip, quick time put it together. I was so proud of that. And I just looked at I was like, that is a family moment. Everybody got involved. It was cool. But almost family moment I had to work so that they could afford to do that. That's a whole separate that's pretty much the theme of my life.I understand that.But that man, I like that. I like the whole idea that we just came up with right here. Yeah, you know, engage the put everybody so the Joe Rogan recent podcast with Joe Stanek was it? Paul? Paul Stamets Paul Stamets. So it's all about mushrooms and Sol Simon and a few other things. If you don't know anything about that listen to extremely wild. But he said the coolest thing ever, which was, the thing is, is that we are in a competitive world. And if everyone became a little bit more enlightened, a little bit more accepting and a little bit more willing to learn, then we would grow exponentially as a race, as opposed to what we're doing now, which is I'm trying to beat you to the next hurdle, right? But I try $10 think of where we could grow exponentially if everyone had the ability to go you're a really cool person. Let me pull out my digital journal and let let me learn about youknow, which which is well it is it is a digital journal, Colonel. So, one of the things I would recommend is you know, we shoot this and you know, you give to your kid they go to college. Whattime they gonow, my phoneThat's yours.I don't know howwe get this turned off. It's on silent.That's the weirdest thing. It sounds like it's coming through our sound system here. This weird does.Yeah, I've got nothing running here. Itis coming from here. That is so weird. That's awesome.Yeah. So the cool thing about video editing.What mostly happened is my wife got into my Spotify account and it started playing here on Spotify on at home or my daughter more likely into that. But what I was gonna say is that, you know, you could go off to college and you shoot all this footage and they're gonna run out of space, you know, so I would recommend you get a Cloud account of something and have them upload it because then you have access to it. If you give him a hard drive, you'll never see it.Yeah. Havethem upload it and you're paying for it. So say look, I'll archive it for you and then you've got access to that footage.Yeah and I think now we're just I've been finally finally got my foot my kids phones. We talked about that a couple episodes ago and you having unlimited storage now with the iCloud is Oh, yeah, dirt cheap. It's it's not it's like, I mean, it's just I don't know where it's all going. I don't know. I mean, I keep thinking that like SpaceX is going to go, we're hitting data, we can't get through it too many pictures, right and stand the whole cloud thing. Someday we're gonna look up we won't be able to see sunlight, right? Just gonna bea bunch of ones and zeros all over the sky. Right, right. We don't do anything about it. Well, I do know that you need to go. But we've had an awesome show here today. I do want to remind everybody to Like and share the gut check project. certainly appreciate everyone. The new website will launch at some point December we thought was gonna be before Thanksgiving, but that's not how websites go.And most importantly, we're one of the few places right Now that you can actually purchase CBD online, Greg has there's been, as everybody's probably noticed, they're popping up all over hard like in buildings. But the reason why is because we went through all the meticulous process to actually have the ability to sell a vetted, CBD full spectrum hemp product called kBm D health CBD that we've got Certificate of analysis, I see the clinical benefit with people. And we are giving tremendous discounts because we know people need it. This is much more about us helping people much like you, giving this kind of advice to help people to have great video editing. We want to make sure that everybody ultimately has a better life. That's what the gut check projects about. It's about trying to improve lives.Definitely don't forget to do you want to connect without drawn to it, you can go to love my tummy.com forward slash spoonie if you would like to learn more about the kBm the health marks go to KB MD health box.com or KB Md box.com. On the above take you there. If you'd like to connect with Michael Williams and creative Echo, is there a place to get rejected?You know, my go to creative echo.net and you can find out more about what I do and you can book an appointment or you can get my email or any other contact information. Sothat's also creative echo.net not calm, creative. echo.net connect with Michael Williams. Thank you so much for being a part of our 25th episode, like and share a gut check project. Thank you all very much. Once again,thank you.Thank you. I appreciate it. event.See y'all soon.

Michael gets an iHeart email from the company’s Chief Privacy Officer detailing the new California Consumer Privacy Act of 2018. So Michael did some digging around to find out just what that law does. Shocker. More people are tracking and giving you a score than just FICO. Ouch!

Michael is on his own this week, as Kevin is out-of-town.  So Michael makes it a short one by quickly recapping some of the crazier news over the past couple of weeks, namely Chris Jericho physically losing the AEW title belt for a couple of days, Session Moth Martina signing with ROH, and an announced upcoming WWE Draft. #WWE #NXT #RAW #Smackdown #ROH #AEW #JourneyPro #Wrestling #ProWrestling

Episode 10: Have you ever thought about truly achieving the financial independence you’ve always wanted in order to provide a better future for yourself and your family? Are you seeking a strategy that is effective when buying and holding real estate? Then today’s episode will provide great insight for you.  After a hefty career in sales, Michael Zuber decided he needed to find a better alternative than the intense grind of a sales career and focus on building his future. One that allowed for a better work-life balance and less anxiety. This led him to start investing in rental properties and outsourcing property management so he could generate an income on the side while also keeping his traditional career. His ‘going against the grain’ methodologies have proven very successful for his real estate investments and today he is excited to share with you exactly why.  On this episode of Multifamily Real Estate Investments with Don and Eden, Michael, the author of One Rental At A Time, shares his in-depth strategy and plans that he implemented for buying and holding real estate in order to generate enough income for him to live a much better-balanced life. Michael shares his take on the current real estate market, his advice for investing in the right deal at the right time, and his business model he applies to invest in the smaller 15-20 units.    Highlights:  Michael’s Beginnings in Real Estate  Why he typically invests in the smaller 5-20 units How he views the current real estate market Current Projects   How to Connect with Michael One Rental At a Time- YouTube Channel Michael Zuber  One Rental At a Time Book Available on Amazon ------------------------------------------------------------- TRANSCRIPTION   Hey guys, today I’m hosting Michael Zuber - as you know every investor likes to do things a little different. So Michael is investing in multi-family apartments but he's after the smaller ones typically between five and 20 units.  Today I want to realize why and more importantly how.  Welcome to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to multi-family apartment buildings and off-market strategies.   Hey Michael, welcome to our show.   Hey hey, thank you for having me. This is going to be a lot of fun.  I hope you guys are excited because today we have a very special guest. So, Michael, you've been specializing at 5 to 20 multifamily units and you've been doing that for 15 years. Am I correct?  Yes. I was a busy technology worker worked in sales and realized that it is a very hard career to do for a long time. So I worked very hard during the day saved my money and bought multi-family properties which ultimately allowed me to leave the rat race and quit my job at a relatively young age and left at forty-five. So it is absolutely possible to leave your job because of buy and hold rental properties.  That's great. So you've been going against the advice of all the gurus which is to quit your job and your W-2 so that you can focus primarily on real estate investing. So I mean a lot of people say that you've got to quit your job if you want to do it because otherwise, it's really hard to focus on two things simultaneously. So, for me I mean I'm hearing it's either you really loved your job right or you are very good at doing things simultaneously.  Well, I think it's actually probably a third option if we're honest with ourselves right. I think that Guru message that hustle and grind that message is really tailored to I'll just call it the people younger than me right. So I'm in my 40s just for comparison sake. That's a message that college students folks right out of college or high school students love to hear right. So I think when gurus are pushing that message they're saying something frankly because they want to get a little bit of your money for some course or video or something. Yeah. You know my point of reference was I was a 30-year-old man. I had a family I had already “been successful” at least by my parents' definition which meant I went to high school when I graduated high school went to college, got an MBA and was making six figures. But what I quickly realized is not only was I making six figures I was spending six figures. So I had nothing to show for my success. And I knew I was in a chosen career that I just couldn't do for a long time because it was so stressful these 90 day cycles really beat you up and you know I needed a way out and I wasn't going to be a professional athlete or a songwriter wasn't going to you know to create something from scratch. So I had to jump in and buy and hold rental properties or real estate is how much you know lots of people get rich. And I just started buying one at a time. And I truly believe that the right answer for most people is to bust your butt during the day. So earn as much money as you can at your job or jobs because there was a time where I had two jobs and then invest in real estate on the side. I believe buy and hold rental properties when you do it correctly. You outsource property management and the rest takes maybe four hours a week when you're in your build phase because all you have to do is learn your market and track down that one deal and you know you're doing one deal maybe every six months. So it's really not a full-time job right. If you're wholesaling or flipping or you're building chunk money that's a job right. You've got to choose. But if you're doing buy and hold rental properties where your volume is two a year that's not a full-time job. So my job was to earn as much as I could, save which are not a lot of people talk about right, you need to reduce your expenses and then invest. So that's what we did we did for 15 years replaced to six-figure incomes. And now you know time is what we make of it. And it's a pretty good life.  Yeah, it sounds like you guys are having fun. So now I know you're forty-five and you're retired from your regular daytime job. So what I was curious about is that. Tell us a little bit about your day. So when you wake up in the morning, what do you do right now? Do you have an office still or do you work from home? Do you have people that work for you? So how does your day look like? How many units do you have under control right now?  Yeah. So we have just under two hundred units. I think it's one ninety-five or one ninety-six it really depends because we're buying every month and I have a couple in escrow right now. So that's why I think we are today somewhere around there plus or minus one or two as far as my day. I am a morning person. There are not many days that you will catch me functional after 10 p.m. That said I'm up at 6 a.m. without an alarm clock. Six out of seven days a week no problem. So I'm definitely a morning person. So what I do now, when I get up in the morning is we have a dog so I take care you know what dogs need to take care of in the morning. I love some coffee and the first thing I will do is I will do some content from my YouTube channel. I like to do that in the morning. The house is quiet. My wife's asleep so I can record my daily content which I try to put out again every day. You know I've been doing it for six months now and will continue to do that. I then look at real estate. I've looked at real estate every day for the better part of 10 to 12 years so I still look and buy look I mean look in the MLS. I return voicemails from agents or wholesalers or bird dogs that may have left me a voicemail because lots of them are evening folks. And you know that's my morning right. So I'm doing something on my YouTube channel or something for my real estate portfolio. Probably till nine-thirty maybe ten o'clock each day and then that's it. The rest of the day is what we want. We typically go to the gym. After that we come home, shower, we go to lunch every day somewhere different. We come back in the afternoon we're returning phone calls on eviction or some kind of one of our rental portfolios. And then in the evening, it's probably going out to dinner. We probably go out five days a week and you know we just enjoy spending time together so that's the average day something for my followers something for my buy hold portfolio something for my rentals the gym. I do read a bunch you know during basketball season I will watch the Warriors games when they're on. So you know it's not a very stressful life.  I don't have any employees. I do most of my work from my home office. Interestingly enough, I am just now buying an office building in Fresno because I think I can help more people. But again I'm not going to have employees, everybody there will be their own business and we'll work something out, but it will be my office it will be where I brand “One Rental at a Time” because that's my experience in Fresno. So again I'm lucky enough that I don't have any great desires for fancy things. I can live very modestly and my bills are covered. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how to give back and creating a physical place called “One Rental at a Time” is it's something I'm doing now and going to open it up August 1st. So a lot of fun.  Ok. I'm excited for you as well. So you're doing one rental out on time and not quitting your job and I also know that you are focusing on five to 20 multifamily units instead of buying the 52 up to 100 hundred apartment complexes that everybody is always telling us to buy. Yeah. So the first question I have when we're digging deep into your business model is why do you choose to buy the five to 20 units instead of the bigger ones?  Well, there's a couple of reasons. The first and foremost was I never had any desire to complicate my life and I believe going outside and doing something called syndication or things of that nature would add complication.  So everything that we buy is in our name are LLC as are our entities right. I have no partners when we talk about roughly two hundred doors under ownership it is ours and by ours I mean my wife and me.  Right. So I don't get great energy by saying oh I have two thousand units well. Oh, by the way, I own 10 percent of it. That's not my thing. It's not that I don't like you know the huge building. It's frankly I've never had the capital to go buy one. And the other thing is you rightly said at least in the last 18 months because I've been doing this for 15 years the last 18 months to 24 months. Everybody's talking bigger is better. Everything is priced for perfection. And fortunately, I think a lot of people are gonna get hurt. I think there's just not very many solid 50 units in above. And if everybody is following Grant Cardone and like syndicators, I think there's going be a ton of living in partnerships that either take a haircut or they have to hold for 10 extra years because the math does that when things get priced crazy it's going to end badly. So I won't touch things that are overpriced and you know back in 2008 that was a single-family home. Today it's a 50 unit apartment building and I don't mind telling people that I think today they're overpriced and I think they're grossly overpriced especially when people are buying C class properties and lying to themselves about oh we're going to upgrade it and when recession comes. I'm going to get more occupancy. Yeah you're going to get more occupancy but you're going to lose 30 percent of your tenants and your tenant turnovers are gonna kill your cash flow and you know you're going to lose a ton of money. I'm not trying to sell anybody anything I'm not trying to raise any money so I can just be honest and tell you what I think and I think 50 units and above today is we're talking in the summer of 2019 they are grossly overpriced and I believe there's going to be a lot of limited partners that have to take haircuts or lock up their money for five to 10 years longer. So that's what I think is happening.  Yeah. Well, we are all about saying the truth here in the podcast. So you're definitely not the first person to say that. And so that is why I'm curious about your model because you are focusing on the fact that it's funny. So you think they're not overpriced and you think they're there is not as much competition. What is it that's so special about them.  Well, let's be clear. I think there's a ton of competition there as well. You know I've actually sold two of my 18 unit buildings here in the last six months because I knew what they were worth to me. Let's just reuse round numbers say a million dollars and what I did is I called up a couple of agents and I actually listed three of my buildings for 30 percent more than I thought they were worth. So in this example of a million dollars, I listed them for one point three and two of the three sold. So if you want to give me an artificial gain of 25 or 30 percent. Great. The third one didn't sell so great. I kept it right my LTV on that is like 30 percent. So cash flow is great. That said I'm still looking to buy. I just did a 15 unit deal about four months ago but I found that by going direct to sellers a lot like wholesalers do and I offered up seller financing and all of those things. So I still think there are lots of opportunities out there, but one of the things you learn about me just like in 2008 when stuff gets priced insanely. I'm not opposed to selling or more to the fact exchanging the 10 31 exchange is there for a reason. It allows you to shield year 1 taxes and push the basis onto something else. So the 1031 exchange that has been a great vehicle for us to maintain our wealth and also to take artificial value when something is overpriced.  Yeah, that's great. So what are you looking to buy right now?  Well, I only buy things that make financial sense. One of the things that I talk about a lot to my students is I have this yield calculation and I will buy whatever produces the highest yield not what takes the most cash not what's the prettiest, what's the highest yield? Sometimes that's a house sometimes that's a 20 unit apartment building. I can tell you for the last six months houses are a better investment than multifamily which is crazy the last 15 years of my career 5 to 20 unit buildings have been outstandingly priced and without question the better investment. Unfortunately, when the herd starts chasing multifamily the herd can push prices up. And unfortunately, there's not a lot of supply right? They're not building a lot of 5 to 20 units. If there are building stuff it's a big class a one hundred, two hundred, three hundred units. So the fact is the supply is dwindling. And when the herd follows Grant Cardone or like syndicators prices go up for the first time in 15 years it shocks me to say this but a single-family home produces a better return in most markets than a 20 unit apartment building. And that's crazy. But I think it's true today.  That is crazy. OK. So, Michael tell me a little bit about how you find these 5 to 20 unit buildings because I know a lot of people are talking to brokers and to try to get deals from brokers. So are you doing the same thing? Are you talking to brokers to find these kinds of deals or you're doing the marketing yourself?  Yeah. So you know one of the keys to this business as you know is you can't just have one strategy to find opportunities. So you know the short answer is I do lots of things. But let's kind of walk through each of them. First, off most of the five to 20 unit buildings I have found to date have been out of the local multiple listing service not looping it right loop net is kind of a graveyard for listings and they're all overpriced and things of that nature. So I do mean like your local multiple listing service in the beauty about that is what I'm seeking or searching for when I look there is marketed or mislisted properties because one of the things you learn in this business over time is most people do residential meaning single-family homes. But you know over the course of a year or maybe two years residential agents I have a friend or contact or some acquaintance go ‘hey can you list my building as well?’ And when they do that they make lots of rookie mistakes like one of the buildings I bought I still remember today was listed as a single-family home and I found it because it was listed oddly. Right.  The square footage was over eleven thousand square feet. It had twenty-four bedrooms and 12 bathrooms right. So for me, I'm like ‘Okay that's probably a 12 unit building and they're probably averaging 950 square feet.’ Most people would miss that because it wasn't allocated as multifamily it wouldn't show up in their automatic searches. So I peruse the multiple listing service every day I've been doing it for well over 12 years now.  I still get probably three deals a year just out of mismarketed or miss-listed multi-family properties. The other thing I do is obviously in this business it's a people business you have to market yourself you have to talk to people you have to network. One of the goals I had, while I was working a full-time job, was I wanted to meet two new people a week every week. So, you do that for a year that's over a hundred people you do that for five to 10 years that's five to a thousand people and you become known and you tell them what you're looking for and you follow up and you send them emails and you just build your Rolodex and you become a trusted known buyer. So you know probably 30 percent of my deals come from off-market listings where I get a phone call before anybody else sees it. So when somebody is trying to sell something and it's underpriced or it's in the condition or area town I like there's a pretty good chance I'm going to get a shot at it before it gets mass-marketed. Which is a great place to be. The other thing I do is, I do talk to people.  I remember a building I just closed this year 15 units and that came from having a conversation with the seller on a six-unit building I bought last year. Last year the seller via wholesaler sold me his building right. The wholesaler made like 30 grand. So they were really happy. And you know I had a building that I wanted to keep but I let the seller know when I shook his hand and I took the keys that hey you know if you have another building which you said he did if you're ever looking at selling it we should look to do owner financing because I could save you a lot of money on taxes keep giving you in income but also remove the headaches and you know I didn't think he listened to me because he kind of shook his head and you know this or that. He called me up a year later almost to the day and said ‘Hey do you remember me I'm like yeah you sold me that building on Main Street’ whatever it was. And he goes well, you know you told me about that seller financing and I thought it was a scam and I didn't really understand what would happen to my taxes because I depreciated that six-unit building to zero. Tell me more about that because I don't want to pay 50 percent hit. You know this next tax year which he had to pay roughly because he had zero cost bases and a six-unit building so you know he had to pay a fair amount of taxes. So we ended up working it out and the long story short is he sold me one point three million dollar asset for nine hundred grand. He kept roughly a five thousand dollar payment for the next 20 years which is what he thought his life expect to see would be his year when taxes were significantly reduced because I only gave him 50k down, I got a reduced down payment, I got a reduced interest rate and I got a whole bunch of equity. He got a prepayment penalty of five years because he didn't want me to sell it at least cheaply within the first five years. So you know by talking to sellers you can't create win-win but to be clear I don't do mass mailings. I work with wholesalers that do I don't have any direct employees as I shared earlier. So you know I 'm probably not as active as I should be but I think I'm doing ok.  I think you're doing ok too. No doubt about that. So yeah first of all these are very accurate strategies and some of them at least I could see that you're doing something that everybody's doing like the first thing and that is to put your name out there and that is probably the most important thing. I always say on the show whenever you do real estate let everybody know that is what you're doing because you would never know where it's coming from either from your friends from people that talked about you and said that you're doing stuff. And so all of a sudden you get a phone call and that phone call is worth a hundred or two hundred thousand you know down the road. So I could totally agree. And so I want to ask you about specifically about these five to 20 units because not every day I have somebody who's focusing on them. So I want to ask you about the potential value adds all of these units, I know they're different and I know the value rates are different so you can do the same things you would do in a bigger apartment building and also I want to focus on the management. Yeah. So these two questions are really important for our audience. So I know a lot of people say that you want to buy the bigger units or the bigger apartments sorry so that you can put on-site management and that way you are not required to do anything. So how do you combat that struggle of managing your units yourself or putting somebody to do it where they're not that big?  Well first off I think anybody who believes that if you just put an on-site manager suddenly the world is better is either new or lying to themselves. Because I have a couple of buildings in the state of California. Anything over 16 units you have an on-site manager. So I have several buildings where I have to pay to have a manager free rent. All of those things. And it's still management intensive. Right because they are essential to be eyes on the ground but they're you know most of them aren't going to be you know maybe they can do light bulb changes and you know to call out repairman it's tough but they're not going to be your general contractors you're not going to want to mess with electricity or plumbing or anything of that nature. Yeah. Okay. So you have a hundred unit building you have to onsite managers but if you think that's gone you're not going to have any other management headaches. You're kidding yourself. The other thing is I've invested in a market my entire life that's two and a half hours away from me. So I've had property management since day one. So in a building where I have onsite, I obviously pay a slightly reduced rate because I'm also paying for the onsite. But I've been paying property manager since day one since I had only a single house. So I don't do self-management. I don't believe in self-management. We've already talked about the fact that I had a busy day job. I was paid relatively well so I was going to exchange my very well self-management-paying job for a ten dollar an hour job. So I've had property management since day one. And then as far as a value add. The thing about 5 to 20 unit buildings is they're building them b they're never gonna be Class A. But you can take these 60 and 70 unit buildings that do have some kind of functional layouts just different right the kitchens are smaller. You know they had it was more boxy. Back in the 70s so with very little investments you can make a choice do you just want to go in and change the flooring and paint and put in new appliances or do you want to update a little bit take out that fake wall that's just there to box it in the kitchen put in the open feeling create an island or a bar stool kind of layout and there are things that you could take a C class building to assume the area that you're in supports it and really dress it up for not very much more money. Right. I can dress up you know a 750 square foot two bedroom one bath for sixty-five to seven grand and I could take the rents up two hundred and fifty dollars and they're going to stay there because what people need to realize is most renters are living paycheck to paycheck. So if you can make this place the nicest rental they have ever lived in. The chances of them leave leaving are slim. And more importantly, they're going to if you have a good tenant and they're paying rent they're going to bring their friends and they're gonna see hey you're at your unit has a barstools seating by the kitchen. Oh my God I've never seen that right so there's just little things that you can do to make your you know 20 unit building that was built 50 or 60 years ago stand out and you know I don't mind that because you know full occupancy and a 20 unit building as it is a good thing and then let's turnover is even a better thing.  Yeah, that sounds great actually. I mean I can understand why you're doing it this way. It sounds brilliant, to be honest.  Thank you. Yeah. It worked. You're welcome. So let me ask you how can other people connect with you.  Well, the best thing to do would be to subscribe to my YouTube channel it's called One Rental at A Time. I do put out daily content anywhere from successful interviews to real talk to walk through. I put it all out there I need to do something during the day. So that's what I do and I do that in the morning. If you really want to learn about our story one of the first things I did after leaving the workforce is I wrote a book. It's called One Rental At A Time itself published on Amazon. I'm proud to say that there are sixty-five five star reviews now which means a lot to me. So people are liking it and it's not really selling anything it's just here's our 15-year journey. This is what we did. This is what worked what didn't work and what's interesting about the 15-year journey is it. We rode the wave up, we rode the wave down, and then we rode the return. So you get a full cycle and a half and you know people are enjoying it. So that's probably the best way YouTube for daily contact and if you really want to get our story go by the book on Amazon called ‘One Rental at a Time.’  Well, Michael, I could talk to you all day because I see your story is so interesting. But yes definitely I mean I'm sure there are many things that we didn't talk about just as you know you can only talk to all and talk about so many things like you know how you dealt with the crisis back in 08 we did not cover that so I'm sure that's going to be on your book and anybody that wants to know more buy it and that's about it. Yes, Michael. So thank you very much for being on the show. I'm excited to be on your show. I can't wait. Yeah. I would also have a lot to talk about I'm sure. And thank you and continue with your amazing day as a retired man. Thank you very much. All right. Michael always a pleasure. Thank you.  Thanks for listening to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden. Stay tuned for more episodes. Till next time.   

We talk about private barrel selections being the new unicorns on this show all the time. But it begs the question, are we seeing so many private picks that the market is oversaturated? It seems like every week there is a new barrel in our city for sale, FOMO about some sweet sticker, or the secondary market has a crazy valuation on a normal single barrel selection. We examine all the components that go into getting single barrels such as the amount of influence from distributor reps, the amount of available barrels at the distilleries, and if you would buy from a big chain vs a small independent store. Will there ever be enough bourbon to go around and not over bloat the market? We’ll find out. Show Partners: At Barrell Craft Spirits, every release is intentionally unique, and can’t be duplicated. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Portugal. What got you into to buying private barrel picks? What's the landscape of private picks in DC? With the increase in stores wanting private picks, are some stores going to get shut out of the program? Do you think distilleries should be taking care of the bigger accounts over the smaller stores that started doing picks earlier? Is there a bias towards certain states? Would you want to buy a private barrel pick from a big box liquor store? Does the local sales rep make a difference? What about restaurant picks? Do you think distilleries are running out of barrels for their private barrel programs? Is the market flooded with private selections? What could distilleries do to give one store an advantage over another? Let's discuss stickers. Do they influence your purchase? Should stores slow down barrel picks? Why are some people spending so much for private picks on the secondary market? 0:00 Yeah, all I think all of our products are, which ones the few that we've gotten are like my daily drinkers. Yes, I'm with you. I don't ever drink the rare stuff by myself. And nobody ever comes over. So. 0:26 Hey, everybody, welcome back. This is Episode 210 of the bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny. And we don't really have a whole lot of bourbon news to talk about. In fact, we have none but we have some sort of fun little tidbits information plus some things that we've been working on and what we've been doing. So let me tell you about them. So I had some information sent to me a few weeks ago by Chris Middleton over at whiskey Academy. And he said this after he listened to Episode 207 with Jimmy Russell and I sat down with them. Now, you know, it's not often when you can stump Jimmy Russell and this was one thing 1:00 We had kind of talked about that's really kind of a whiskey mystery. So let's kind of dive into it. We talked about the name Ezra on the podcast, and we did that for a bit and somehow we stumbled on the topic of Ezra Brooks. Now, from my knowledge, I remember this being a fictitious name and brand but we got on the topic and it kind of just spiraled out from there. However, here's some factual information on Ezra Brooks that came from Chris Middleton. So Ezra Brooks it is a whiskey brand that is a copycat brand of jack daniels Black Label Tennessee whiskey. It was created by Frank Silverman of the Frank Silverman and company in Chicago in 1957, or he sourced Kentucky bourbon under the Ezra Brooks distilling company is an NDP filed on July 30 1958, with Herbert Silverman as the chairman. Now this was all also under the Hoffman distilling company in Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. There was no Ezra Brooks no distiller, owner investors, celebrity or a day 2:00 The thief from a whiskey cemetery. He's a trademark Phantom. SO Hockley built the Hoffman distillery on the Salt River in 1880 joined II Kaufman. After prohibition, it was rebuilt with the brothers Robert and Ezra, who were brought in to run it. And those were the sons of Thomas repeat, hence the connection to the wild turkey distillery. Jimmy Russell was probably referencing the name from here and all likelihood It was not where the hazard Brooks name came from. Frank Sillerman unashamedly copied everything from jack daniels, starting with the square bottle to a similar black and white label graphic, the filigree even an image of an old distillery illustration, which jack Dino's had on the back of the label, even the trademark name Ezra Brooks with similar syndication and personalization, so we're men also attempting to replicate jack daniels unique use of charcoal filtration. As an aside, Ezra Brooks was America's second charcoal rectified bourbon was 3:00 Since post prohibition, but the processes were very crude in simplistic it's more of a gesture circulating some charcoal and the whiskey barrel for 24 hours. George decal, the other charcoal was launched in 1964. Silverman also plagiarized jack daniels unlabeled claims and copied some of the Jackie Mills print advertising messages back then. JACK, Dino's went on allocation from 1956 to the early 1960s when the consumer demand exceeded the production under the maturation. So that's a good little whiskey tidbit for you. So make sure you try to write that one down. Now you know the kind of the real history behind Ezra Brooks. So I want to give a shout out to our friends over for castle festival for hosting us this past weekend. We had a great time hitting up the bourbon lodge that was sponsored by Justin's house at bourbon and the bird review to get some dusty pours as well as some air conditioning before heading back out into the crowd the jam with bands like Judah, the lion, the killers, and Nelly 4:00 Put on actually a real good show to bring back some those early 2000 memories for lots of us. You can catch our for castle updates on our Instagram and Facebook pages. Did you catch that thing we released on Tuesday this past week? Well, you can look forward to hearing those every week from now on. We're excited to be launching whiskey quickie to give you a fun update in the middle of the week. The normal podcasts will remain unchanged, and hope you look forward to hearing more of them. If you want to catch the video versions, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube page. And you can see that sweet intro that we've cooked up. We've got no shortage of whiskey to review and we can get through quite a bit with only 62nd reviews. But if there's something that you were dying to hear, send us an email team at bourbon pursuit calm. We talked about private barrel selections being the new unicorns on this show all the time. But that begs the question, are we seeing so many private pics that the market is just becoming over saturated? It seems like every week 5:00 There's a new barrel that's going up for sale in our city. There's fo mo about some sweet sticker attached to a bottle that we want to get our hands on, or the secondary market has some crazy valuation on just another regular single barrel selection. We examine all the components that go into getting single barrels, such as the amount of influence from distributor rep, the amount of available barrels that are even at these distilleries. And if you would even buy from a big chain versus a small independent store, will there be enough bourbon to go around and hopefully not overload the market? will find out. All right, well, let's get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrell bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 5:42 Hi, Joe from barrell bourbon here, every release is intentionally unique and can't be duplicated. Once it's gone. It's gone. Find out more at barrel bourbon com. 5:53 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char as I walk into this beautiful store, surrounded by 6:00 port and scotch bottles. I went up to the owner in Lisbon, Portugal. And I asked him a question, sir. Where's your bourbon? He said, Well, there's no demand for bourbon here. Nobody wants it. I love bourbon, he says, but nobody really wants to buy bourbon and Portugal. A few days later, I walked into a lovely bar. There are plenty of ports and scotches and cognacs and the bar owner boasted is like yeah, we have the largest bourbon selection in all of Porto. I'm like, Wow, fantastic. What do you got? We've got bullet bourbon. He said, I was That's fantastic. And then he had four roses and he had a couple of vintage Bourbons and he was very excited to even have jack daniels and Jim Beam. I think he had a redemption here and and an orphan barrel there in for sure. It was the largest selection of bourbon that I had seen in Portugal, and he made some nice cocktails. But at the end of the day, that was not 7:00 Nearly the amount of bourbon that I'm used to seeing, and even a random chilis in Boise, Idaho. Now I guess I shouldn't expect to go to Portugal and see bourbon littered on all the shelves. Not at all. I don't expect that one bit. But I was rather shocked to see that bourbon had not penetrated such a country field with culinary love and wine and port. So perhaps I'm naive to think that bourbon should be served throughout Portugal. But let me tell you why. When I walk into a foreign country, I look for bourbon. It's because I think of the distillers in the 1950s and 1960s, who are trying desperately to get these countries to pull down their tariffs except bourbon overseas. See, in that time frame, bourbon was not a unique product in the United States. And so places like United Kingdom, Argentina, Brazil, Spain, Portugal, they were all terrifying bourbon because there was nothing unique about it and the world. Also want 8:00 Give scotch and easy pass so it could help rebuild the United Kingdom. And so when I look at the shelves throughout the world, I think of the toil of the distillers in the 1950s and 1960s, and those in the 1980s, who were just kind of hanging on by a thread, just trying to bring bourbon back. And while I could easily say that, you know, bourbon and Portugal means less bourbon and Boise, Idaho, it's really not that simple. You see, the more bourbon grows, the more production we will have. And if we can get places like Portugal to carry, I don't know, three to five Bourbons, and every store or restaurant, that's a win for Kentucky. That's a win for bourbon. And at the end of the day, I think it's a win for you too, because that means they're going to work harder to make better bourbon. And that's this week's above the char Hey, 9:00 If you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram, that's at Fred Minnick again. That's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers 9:11 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit Kenny and Ryan here tonight talking about a particular subject that means a lot to all of the bourbon crazies, the bourbon nuts out there because this is one topic that Ryan and I I think, I mean Gosh, we're we're hundreds of episodes into this now and we start rolling back the the clock and the dials and we go back in time and I remember when Ryan was all like, Well, why would you chase unicorns when store pics are the are the real thing that you want? You know, this is this is a privately selected barrel. It only has a finite amount of bottles in it. And now it seems that the game is even getting ruined for store pics in that all right, Ryan. Yeah, now you got to start your own private label. Rare 9:58 because it's 10:00 I guess I was probably what two or three years ago I said that I was just burnt out by the whole camping and lotteries and all these, you know, limited releases and then the store pics was like my, you know, I was like man, those are the just like you said, but now it's gotten to the point where like you said every stores doing one every groups done one they got a sticker on they got this that that and then it's like, all right, what's you know what's rare about these anymore? But I mean, they are still rare because you are selecting your own barrel but uh, you know, same time I think they've kind of lost their luster a little bit, but I don't know, they're still unique. Yeah. And I think I think again, harder. Absolutely. And I think the good thing is at least with this certain topic, because there's there's a lot of ways that you can take this, you know, we've had, we've had you know, as I mentioned, Ryan talked about this a lot. We had Matt Ray, Walt Aiden, English the WWE wrestler talk about it. We had we had Brett from brick 11:00 banter on here we talked about sort of, you know, who can you trust when somebody's actually picking out a single barrel we've also had Jamie Ferris on the show before where he's had over 70 single barrels at one time in the store. So the single barrels they're not nothing new however, the craze is starting to really rise in popularity amongst you know, everywhere to the point where people are quickly selling out a single barrel pick that their total wine just got somewhere in Houston because somebody posted they're like, Oh, can I go get that let's go run and go get it real quick. So it craze the craze is starting to reach capacity. Yeah, and the crazy thing is not to keep going on a banter on our our banter. 11:46 The the the people that have been doing these are you know, for so long and that started doing these to bring interest in these single barrels are getting squeezed out. And that's kind of the the crazy thing about it. It's because there's such a demand. 12:00 The groups that you know, really bought into this and kind of made distilleries famous for it. 12:05 Because they're just a group, they're not really had the buying power of big liquor stores. So we can get into this a little more, but it's just, it's an interesting environment. It's still unique and very cool environment. But there's a lot more at play now. And so you kind of gotta weave in and out how you can end it. Alright, so we've talked enough. So let's introduce our guest, Michael. 12:27 So our guest is Michael Gallagher. Michael is a bourbon enthusiast and brought this topic to us as a way to kind of spark a conversation of what's the market going to be like now and what's it going to be like, even in the future? So Michael, welcome to the show. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me. So before we start diving into the topic, you know, I we always have to get your bourbon story kind of where did you come from? How did you grow up in this? This this brown water wasteland or whatever it is nowadays? Well, when I was growing up by my parents and really drink it off, so I didn't really start getting 13:00 into it and probably until like, five years ago, and, and I didn't live it up here near DC for about eight years now. And being right across the line, the wild west of DC until I have a couple of liquor stores actually like the frequent because it's a lot easier to get stuff. And that actually helped me broaden my horizons as far as like the range of, you know, flavors and tastings that you can get from it. I mean, I'm not an expert in any means when it comes to figuring out like, whether these are way marzipan or what you know, we just play one on the podcast. 13:35 We ride on Fred's coattails on that 13:39 so yeah, I built a collection of myself it's just been a nice happy that I've enjoyed so what's your your collection up to this point? I probably got around 150 bottles which is probably like nothing compared to what you get but dang that's about there with me. The problem is I drink on like, like this slowly keep diminishing but Kenny Hello 14:00 He's a hoarder he's got that's not true because every time you come over I crack one open and then you just leave and so I'm I'm always stuck with all these bottles and only have like two pours poured out of them because you invite you don't invite me back. 14:14 There's a reason why that happens to for sure. I guess Michael kind of give us a little bit of an indication of like, What got you like looking into buying Perino private selected barrels that have been done either by stores or by groups or anything like that versus, you know, either regular offerings or trying to chase after unicorns. I think it was when I started collecting deeper it was more about availability I guess, because like you get to a certain point you can't, you're not going to find that many more new bottles. So it became more about the different flavors in like a four roses. You know, private select the different kinds of flavors you can get from you know, different recipes they have, which I usually found through the 15:00 Single barrel program that you know liquor stores and guys like you have done 15:07 and so what's what's sort of the landscape in DC as well because I know I know we've got friends that own stores around there and I know the way that as you'd mentioned the wild west of laws happened but what's the like the landscape of private pics because I'll tell you about the landscape of private pets here in Kentucky after you're done 15:29 as far it's just I think the the stores 15:33 if I'm understanding your question correctly did stores just happened to do as many pics as they can. I mean, I don't they don't usually get that many in they probably do like four or five years especially the my favorite store is that about which is good. Yeah, I mean, because the one thing that we you know, we kind of see around here is that there is 15:52 there's an abundance. Right? I mean, I think I think there is something to be said about having this. Everything in your backyard. A lot. 16:00 These stores have had these relationships with the distilleries for a very long time. So when they want to go and do a private pic, it's like yeah, sure. Come on in like we've been doing business forever. And then now it's starting to the point well, okay, well, bourbon, the craze is starting to go up. So now we've got stores in California and Oregon and Washington and Iowa, New York. And I everybody wants to do them now. And so there's, there's this. They're feeling this pressure. Yeah, there's tension and the pressure. And so and with that pressure, I mean, we're going to start seeing some people potentially get booted out and stuff like that. And I know Ryan, you've you've kind of seen it firsthand by you know, Guthrie, that's been on the show before. with Todd he's down in Bardstown. So, tell us a little bit about what that looks like. Yeah, so got there. A good friend of mine owns today's we talked about before, but he's been doing private pics for Gosh, I mean, it seems like it's 17:00 least seven to 10, maybe even 10 years, ever since they've been first having it. And so, yeah, he goes to plot for Russell's pics this year and four roses and they're like, Hey, 17:13 we don't have room for you this year. And, and it's based because he's a small store, you know, he doesn't do a ton of volume. And so they're basically catering to the bigger liquor stores that push the volume. And so it's kind of like squeezing the little guys out, they kind of, 17:31 you know, embrace them at first and so it's kind of like, all right, well, that doesn't seem 17:37 very fair. Very right. And we seen it with good friend of ours. Read with 17 out be I mean, they've been doing pics for ever and Campari just told them that they weren't gonna be able to do a Russell's pick. And they I mean, gosh, they've done. I mean, how many barrels that we picked that day with them six out of how many I mean, we probably 18 maybe you could just tell read and emulate it. 18:00 relationship with Jimmy and Eddie. And it was like, you're just going to shit on this relationship that's like been there forever just because they're a group and they're not a big liquor store. And so there's just been so many groups and so many liquor stores now interested in it that like, the way that these 18:19 bourbon companies are kind of determining who gets what is kind of alarming and shocking to me, and I'm not too happy about it, but I understand it is what it is. And it's like you said at pressure, squeeze markets, so they do what they gotta do, but I think I'll will All right. Well, remember that, you know, when about five, eight years, and all this stuff's out again and there, you know, calling us back up. Yeah, Michael, kinda want to get your take on that. Like, what do you kind of see is the, 18:51 the anti, I guess you could say happening, of being able to say, well, we're going to push out all these people that took it 19:00 The dance and we're going to take care of the Benny's and you know liquor barns in our backyard and going me wrong like they they get the cream of the crop for some reason I've seen liquor barn just regular like Buffalo Trace old Weller antique pictures that show up on Facebook. Holy God, I'm not I'm not kidding. They have you know, when we go we do our Buffalo Trace barrel pick they have four barrels when they do it. They have 12 1518 It's insane, right? So they treat customers a little bit differently to do you agree that these distilleries should be taking care of their bigger accounts rather than everybody that kind of has been keeping them in the dance for a while, but is as bad as it sounds. I mean, it's probably Money Talks, right? And it's almost like, to the point where to get certain bottles, like comfort like they've done in the past is these liquor stores have to push the cheaper stuff or the bottles they want to get off their hands in order to get the chance to get into the selections what it almost seems like in and so I guess another question that that we kind of 20:00 Bringing around that you know it does go by location to. I'm reading a few things that are coming here in the chat. Bill Nall says that location matters. He was in Detroit and there's a liquor store that had a barrel bourbon private pick. And it was, quote the only one in the state. However, here in Kentucky, you can go around to five or six stores and probably find one. Matt said the same exact thing he said in Iowa. There is only one for roses single barrel private selection pick for the entire state. He never saw it. He only saw there is only one Weller 107 barrel for the whole entire state of Wisconsin this year. So there is there is this sort of demographic, I guess, bias? I don't know. Maybe that's what it is like, what do you what do you all think? Do you think there is a demographic bias or is it because there's there's another underlying motive there? I guess it could be the idea of population density areas. I mean, I was not exactly a DC nuts. 21:00 DC is like this big city. But you know, DC, even DC like a liquor store that I usually go to only gets like four bottles, like a year, like four selections a year from different cup, and they're usually the big one like whistle pig for roses and stuff like that. But 21:14 I'm not around with. Yeah, I mean, I think where these distilleries are aiming, they're kind of probably starting to squeeze out the group's more so than stores. Because a group doesn't necessarily help them, 21:28 I guess, expand their brand or expand their reach. You know, we're us whiskey geeks were already in we're already buying their product. And so I think smaller stores and groups are going to get squeezed out first because like that, they just want to reach new customers and get into new markets and a group just not going to offer that especially one that's here in Kentucky. I mean, because we're going to, we're going to buy them if they're available and it's 21:57 kind of, you know, limits the reach if 22:00 just selling to so I can understand that. But at the same time we've are the ones that are, you know, like, I hate to hate hate to keep saying bring it to the dance, but we're the ones that brought you to the dance and so, so Hey, come on, give some love. No, Andy, just comment in the chat. He said, Well, groups don't sell cases of fireball. Exactly. 22:22 Exactly. And so 22:25 there's still a ton here in Kentucky. I mean, like you said, You got a liquor barn or total wine. I mean, they got the everyday Buffalo Trace and, like, even Barrow I mean, they're pleather but well when I said it, I mean they fly off the shelf like crazy. I mean, it's a it's just a different landscape than it was two three years ago. Do you think they have like deals with those like when I was in I was in Kentucky and I went to the old forester their new area where they have their you do I guess you do your single barrel select there and they had like the plaques on the wall for the people that have done pics, and like total wines has like 20 stars. 23:00 Any star was like 10 bottles I mean 10 barrels. So yeah, yeah I mean there's it's amazing right? I look at it from from a business perspective and yes it does make sense that you you help the people that sell cases upon cases upon cases of just old forester 86 or 100 or the new right or whatever it is right it's great to be able to take care of those people. 23:31 The flip side of it is is that when we start thinking about these big stores the the liquor Barnes the Benny's 23:40 you know, talk about some some massive change the total wines now when you go into one of these liquor stores, and you know, we have him around here, I'm sure that you've got a a Costco around you as well. Even though I don't know how big the Costco private barrel program is, even though they sell a shit ton of liquor but 24:00 What is what is your take? Like? would you would you feel comfortable buying a private barrel pic? Because it is that total line and you have no idea who did it? Or are you going to? Are you going to pass on it? Michael? What kind I want to get your ID on that. That Yeah, I've had that discussion in my own head a lot. As far as Do they really care about the taste? Or are they just doing the private select because it's a private select and I know it's going to sell more. I do like to tend to go to the to the groups but like you guys and that I trust like the you know, we kind of have the same flavor palette I guess you would say and I tend to stick to the smaller ones and stay away from the larger ones. Yeah, we do have costumes here in the DC whiskey read it is crazy about always posting like an update of what they have gotten each day. Yeah, I think the I guess the crazy thing about just Costco in general what's what's happened to the liquor sales because the words out that 25:00 It's, it's the cheapest, you're going to find any state that you're going to live that you're going to live and be they they get allocated items. So I'll never understand why they don't have a bunch of barrel selections or anything like that going on, because I know that they're running through a lot because that's the anomaly. That's the difference of a liquor barn and a total wine where they do have a lot of private selections, and they're trying to really put that as a differentiator. I was gonna say, I didn't even know Costco had or they don't have private selections, right? Is that what you're saying? You don't see I've never seen any or, I mean, so I will take that back. There was one that happened here, I think it was or maybe it was another location, but they just had like a knob Creek, you know, nothing, nothing crazy. But that's something that you typically don't see. And so I guess another way to kind of look at this, you know, Matt FE says in here it says, Why should you crap on the little stores, you know, you still get a single barrel into the store and it's still drives business. 26:00 But why why are you not going to help those smaller stores out? You all have a kind of take on that. 26:07 Well Could it be more about supply and demand kind of thing where they recognize that they got it they have to give these stores the largest stores their pics, but they're running out of not necessarily they're running out but they you know they probably allocate barrels of for their single barrel selection program and maybe they know that the big stores they have to take care of so that they the less store the smaller stores have less to go off of you know what I mean? Like you were saying earlier how you don't get that many barrels to choose from. Right What do you think that algorithm is? A figuring out what like, what do you have to sell to make sure that you get access to buy something that's way over my pay grade. 26:45 And my shareholder as bourbon pursuit. 26:49 podcast host but uh, yeah, I don't know. I mean, 26:54 it all makes sense when as a business fan, I mean, you 27:00 Do this too. I mean, you have those accounts that do everything for you. They're great customers, they pay on time. They, they, they're just easy to deal with. And I'm sure it's kind of like that with, you know, your bigger stores and with your district, you know, distributors and your bigger stores because it's, it's an easy relationship. It's an easy flow. And it's like, here's a reward for versus smaller store. Yeah, it might be, but they might pay slow, they might do that. I don't know. I'm just thinking outside the box here, but it you know, 27:30 it's like the 8020 rule. You know, 20% of your customers bring 80% of your revenue and so maybe they really focus on those 20% and kind of squeezing out that 80% that right now, just because they are in such a squeeze. Yeah, yeah, I definitely see that as being a motivation factor in you know, you owning your own business. You kind of have a different take on this then I think a lot of other people will to where were you do you follow the money trail? 28:00 Then you've probably have people like me who are like, well, I want to I want to have this personal connection with my, the small little local store. You know, I know them I know who's selecting the barrels, you know, when you go to a larger chain, you don't necessarily have that connection. Right? You're you're talking to hourly, hourly employees that are just sitting there stocking shelves, like, you know, it's very rare that you actually know who picked that barrel in the store behind it. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just the business landscape or in in general, it seems like more and more small entities are either being gobbled up by the bigger ones, and it's just become more in this business in more than any other it's, as we've seen with pursuit series. It's an economies of scale like none other and so, 28:53 you know, the local store, they might be, 28:57 you know, grave in heaven, but they might be you know, there 29:00 You're going to be picky, they're going to be a pain in the ass. And like, you know what we don't like these four barrels are really words, total wine, they're like, I just gives whatever, you know, it's like an easy transaction for them, then they're like, you know, it's like, we like dealing with you all, because you're not paying the ass and you're not like, bitching about us on the forums, and you're not doing this. So it's like, you know, so I can totally see it from it's all coming back. Megan says to me, because, like, but how long, you know, how motors are great, and I love having the relationship with God, they're picky, and like, they will nitpick the shit out of you. Whereas our big commercial clients, you know, they're like, as long as it looks good for the road, you know, and here's your money. And here's everything, you know, easy peasy. So let's, I that's the only way I can kind of relate to it in and you know, there's there's other thing that Matt kind of put in the chat and he says, Does it have to do it the representative that's in those states too. And, and we've seen this firsthand, at least on the podcast side as we've been doing our own private barrel selections is that the rep actually plays a huge role in this like they Yeah, they are 30:00 They are got a bottle for you. Exactly. And that's exactly what happens. Typically how this this works is that 30:08 depending on what region state of the of the nature of the US that you own, your allocated X amount of barrels, and you get to choose where these go and so it's it's a i don't know i mean i guess if you've been a boss and then you've come into the into the year and you're like, Okay, you've got 28% of raises that you can go you can figure out who gets 2% who gets 6% who gets whatever and so that is that is one thing is that a lot of these stores they they continually have to be really good to their reps to make sure that they're always going to be on deck to be able to get one of these private barrel pics because that is a that is a real thing. That is it's it's all business and shaking hands at the end of the day to guess what else would tie into the with the reps is also the restaurants increasingly increasing number 31:00 restaurants around DC have done private slicks that I've seen, like even Blanton's and Buffalo Trace and just for their just for mixing drinks to? Well, I think like I said earlier with the restaurants and bars, you're, you're putting your brand out there and exposing it to the public. And so like a high end restaurant like that, you know, diners are going to go for a high end experience, and they're going to spend money on something like that. And it just helps expose the brand versus, you know, small store small groups doesn't really do that for you. It seems like the distributor 31:37 because that is their role, which we don't really truly understand what the role is, but 31:43 it's a new it's a continually moving target. Yeah, so like, but it would make sense that the distributor would, you know, the distillers like, all right, these distributors get so many barrels and then the distributor decides who they go to 32:00 Based on like you said relationships or sales or ease of business whatever and that's I think that's how it is but maybe not I don't know and the way it should be probably 32:12 no I'm totally with you another angle to look at this is just the the boom of the bourbon market and what it is and you know we've talked about people getting pushed out just having the big guys come in and kind of small and the sort of stuff up and we've kind of heard it before firsthand that like oh like the there's not enough barrels to go around. I kind of want to get you know Michael your take on this. Do you think that's a cop out? Do you really think that four roses the you know, the Russell's the everywhere, whatever the world's here are actually running out of barrels for this particular program. 32:52 Do you love bourbon? How about festivals? Of course you do. So join bourbon pursuit in Frankfort, Kentucky on August 20. 33:00 forth for bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. You will get to taste from over 60 different bourbon spirits, wine and beer vendors plus 20 food vendors, all happening with live music. Learn more about bourbon from the master distillers themselves that you've heard on the show, and enjoy food from award winning chefs. The $65 ticket price covers everything. Don't wait and get yours at bourbon on the banks.org. There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever before. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? Rock house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rackhouses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in 40 states and rock house is June box there featuring a distillery that claims to be the first question 34:00 delivery to stout a whiskey rackhouse whiskey club is shipping out two bottles from there, including its beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye, both of which were finished in barrels that were once used to mature America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out. And if you're a beer guy like me, you would know that's New Holland dragon milk, go to rock house whiskey club. com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 34:31 You really think that four roses, the you know the Russell's the everywhere, whatever the world's here are actually running out of barrels for this particular program. I highly doubt that they're running out of barrels. Maybe for the program. Maybe that is what they already said. Like they at the beginning of the year. They were like we're not going to go beyond this. And they didn't expect the increasing number of groups and like getting with these retailers to buy more and more 35:00 And maybe it will adjust over time over the next couple years, maybe they'll realize that this is a big business opportunity for them. So they will increasingly I know that will it you know, pause a couple was it a couple years ago or their private selection? So as I pick that back up yet, but you know, yeah last year the first I guess re entry to the they're going along with the the their own distillate now, so yeah, yeah, for sure. I think they did, like 97 of them last year, which is still small compared to a lot of people that Yeah, I don't think there's I think that these brands are just so using all their resources to, 35:45 I guess, fund all their everyday brands that they're pumping out into the public is that and to be honest, single barrels are a huge pain for them. They take a lot of resources. They're getting people, you know, they have a have a coordinator. They got to take a 36:00 lunch, they got to spend four or five hours with you, then they gotta dump that one barrel and make sure all the stickers are on that bottle and make sure they got to keep track of that barrel. And it's like, like, probably just like the hell of this. I mean, this is 36:14 it's actually bad business. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it was probably something that got into like, because nobody wanted anything. They're like, Oh, this would be great. We have all these extra girls, you know, come pick your own, like, and but now they're probably like shit, why do we ever come up with that? You know, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. But uh, yeah, that's probably one way to look at it. It's probably a huge labor burden to them to make it happen. And that's why they're probably not growing the amount of barrels that are allocated to more or less Selenium then because they're growing their everyday brands and they just don't want to put the resources towards it. Yeah, there is there is a lot of resources. I do mention that that really go into it. I mean, it kind of just reminds me of, so there's a there's a farm around us. That's 37:00 button 3045 an hour away whatever it is called huber's and it seems like people always want to go there and pick their own apples. And I'm kind of like Why don't you want to go pick your own apples that's it's a weird thing for me to think of as like I just go to go to our grocery store and find a really good honey crisp apple. And I think that that's probably like the flip side of what the everyday consumer sees versus what what we see because there's probably some like person that's really an apples and they want to go and choose their own apples and they it has a unique taste profile. But however the the better side of the businesses and well let's just dump them on a truck and push them out and and get them out in the grocery stores because it's just a better way to look at it. Well they only if they only put trailers of apples like two miles before you get to, you know, huber's they have like two they have trailers of apples and pumpkins that you can buy before you can for like $1 to dollars less. If they only did that with barrels, you know, like for you get to the distillery. These are 38:00 thousand dollars cheaper discount girls right here? 38:06 Oh man, that's that's actually hilarious the way you look at it like that. So we kind of talked about the market of how big guys are kind of getting in squeezing the little people out of it. We're looking at the business opportunity from the distillery side and trying to figure out you know, what is the algorithm of who gets to to get what however, I kind of want to kind of switch the angles here a little bit because one of the things that we've seen is that a lot of this has become pretty prolific. There's everybody that's trying to get into single barrels, whether it's stores out of West Coast ne se wherever it is, everybody wants to come and do this because they they want some sort of differentiation or differentiation offering for their stores be able to sell to their customers. 38:55 And so Michael, I kind of want to take it to you is like do you see this as 39:01 Where it is becoming a flooded market of private selections that are out there? 39:09 Do I think there are too many I mean, 39:12 how how much how different Can I guess the question would be how different can like whistle pig pics be if I have five stores in DC area and I go to each one each one has a whistle pig pig because that is a bigger one than yeah it does it does get a little tiring. So that's why I like to look towards the I like I'd like them to look towards the smaller ones like I love to go into Joseph Magnus and doing that pic because I mean even though it is MTP, it is nice to have a little something different than the you know, the bigger companies. And so I'll will refute that a little bit because I did and I did a whistle pig barrel pick. I had I had five barrels. We chose two of them. We chose two of them that had two different taste profiles. And I think that's just I think that's the difference between 40:00 Maybe and 40:02 and maybe I guess I when I when I think about this maybe that's what most people also don't recognize is that yet they they're not going to send out probably a bunch of barrels that they all taste the same like everything is these unique differences these these minute profile differences or anything like that. 40:20 So I've had the chance to be able to do it and whistle pig and I think there is some some variation against looking at it towards more of the collection aspect. As far as you know, if you're collecting different models, I wouldn't want 20 whistle pigs. It's a so I guess that's where I was coming from. Yeah, that totally makes sense. Because Yeah, you don't want to I mean, it's it's hard to spend 80 to $100 on every single one of those bottles, like you've got to you've got to make sure it goes back to the fundamentals of Do you trust who's picking it? Do you know who's picking it? What's the story behind it? But you know, Michael, I kind of want to put it to you in a different way. 40:57 You know, you had mentioned that, you know, you have all these 41:00 That that could be the same and maybe, maybe because they come from the same distillery but what could a distillery be doing differently to be able to give the stores one advantage over the other? When you say, Well, I'm going to go to a different store and I choose different things do you think you think it's on the stores to not try to choose the another barrel from a, the same distillery and there should just be multiple variations or is it is it something beyond that? I guess it can be I love the way that four roses as their, I guess, their single barrel. I forgot which different program it is, but the fact that they have recipes, it's nice to see. I guess it's a telling thing for the consumer like this is going to be a different recipe. But otherwise, you don't really know until you buy it and taste it. Because I mean, it's not like you're going to go to liquor store and they have a tasting tray for you to try. There's compared to the store down the street. If you have like, you know, two different with whistle pigs. So you 42:00 You kind of like to just go forward, I guess if you were going to go do it that way, but 42:06 I mean, I kind of like the way the four roses has their recipe stuff on there. Yeah, yeah. And then you have someone like makers, you know, where they allow you to blend your own unique profile, which I think is very, very awesome. But you have to get 250 bottles out of it 42:25 in spend eight hours with them to get to that point, but uh, yeah, I mean, I don't think it's on this is still I think it's on the store to pick the you know that that's what it's all about, you know, they gotta 42:41 let me they're not going and picking unique barrel like they're not saying like, well, let's pick three different ones and send it they're like nope, here's the allocate ones. Here they go. Have at it. You know, they're going to try to make this as less complicated as possible. But, you know, 42:56 but I'm worthy. I mean, the four roses and makers are the most unique experiences. 43:00 You know, we go to the Buffalo Trace and the knob Creek and it's, they're awesome. But you know that there's very subtle differences in each barrel that you're tasting. And so it's it is hard to kind of distinguish that, except that me and Kenny have superior palates to anyone now I'm kidding. totally kidding. But uh Yeah, and it's Yeah, it's tough because they're there is a ton of them. And I guess the only way you know people are talking about stickers. That's one way to differentiate themselves. But then, like, I wonder if these distilleries in the sticker game it's like, all right, well, it's all about the stickers now. And it's become less about our brand. And it's more about the sticker game and it's kind of taken away from our brand. So like, 43:44 in the stickers are cool, but they're starting to get a little excessive as well. But uh, I don't know. I'm just rambling. Sorry. That's okay. Yeah, there is one thing I wanted to kind of mention that you would, Michael would say it like Well, let's let's go put 44:00 I'll go buy a bottle from the competitor down the street and I'll sample at my store man that's that's the craziest form of guerilla marketing there probably could be just like take a dump on your competition there. Yeah. But you know Ryan does bring up a good point I think we should we should talk about stickers because stickers or why would you even buy a barrel nowadays or buy a bottle if it doesn't have a sticker on it? That's that's the mean it's like fundamental at this point. So kind of you know, Michael kind of talk about you know, your experiences with the stickers and if it actually has any sort of influence on your purchasing habit. I mean, I won't lie I can't be a sucker for bottles especially I've the the old Fitzgerald decanter bottle back there for which is you know, it's an okay, it's, it's okay, but there was $300 sleep bottle. Yeah, it's asleep. 44:52 I mean, I enjoyed going I wouldn't did the magnetic for you guys and I enjoyed naming it and coming up with the name and whoever did this. 45:00 Design stick I didn't know who exactly what did that that was really cool as far as the Pentagon on it with the Department of bourbon but so it it's got a cool factor to it. 45:11 But I mean do you think it's you think it's starting in the point where it's jumping the shark or do you think we still got a week this is this is going to go strong still on to 2020 I think it's gonna probably keep going strong. I think people like to have their their little spin on it. 45:26 Yeah, go ahead, run well, and I was gonna say it is play out. But Michael made a good point. It is fun to come up with names because that's what I do. And 45:35 most of ours I tried to name that. Not all of them, but it is fun for the group to have their own unique name and, and because otherwise, it's just, you know, they used to be laying like you got a little tag on the Russell's bottle where you got like a little gold medallion. You're like, well, that's stupid. Like that doesn't differentiate us so it is kind of cool. And I guess that I just don't like when they take up the entire bottle. 46:00 Like, and they look all like goofy and like bright and I don't know, like kind of take away from the bottle. That's when I don't like more work on the distilleries and have them make a special bottle for every single barrel pick. Yes, exactly. Now you're talking my love language. Oh, yeah, just yeah, keep keep doing these little custom things every single time. Yeah, no, I mean, I'll kind of talk about the sticker thing a little bit because, you know, I kind of I kind of look at what you all said and I think it's, I think it is fun. I think it's, it's a unique way to be able to give something a name and and ultimately, when I look at it, I like to name stuff after that that kind of like put some sort of sentiment into it. I don't I don't name something because it just sounds cool. You know whether it has a Shawshank Redemption sticker whether it has all a Holcomb mania sticker on it or anything like that, because that that doesn't necessarily mean anything. 47:00 It just probably just sounds cool. Like it has to have some sort of story. And that's, that's really what I love. Because when you when you're able to talk about it when able to drink about and drink it again, you can look at that sticker and you can kind of reminisce on that day. And you can tell the story to people you share it with, you know, like, this is why we came up with that name. This is what happened, you know, like, case of the Mondays, it was a Monday. And like, I was super hung over from a member guest and I was like, I'm really I'm in a case of the Mondays. You know, that I can tell people that, you know, it's like, yeah, I guess the sentiment and Yeah, I agree. And what do you think it's giving more sentiment to us? Or for people that have actually where they are picking it than it does for the consumers that are getting it? 47:43 Yeah, I can see their point. Yeah, I could definitely say that. Don't you want to know why I was named that or maybe? 47:50 Well, I guess I want to know like, if I'm buying something like I was unable to make the tasting room confessions, pick from New Roof, but 48:01 They came with a name and I was like, Well what Tell me about the name? Why did y'all come up with that? And you know, and I wanted to know because I wasn't there and so it was like I got to experience it through them because of the name. I don't know. Sounds kind of dorky. You like the lore of it. Yeah, school. Yeah. No, I mean, there definitely is two angles to it. I think there are you know, there's some that that definitely just speak to people because it's a cool sticker. Like it just to take another new riff for example, like people are putting all the plays on the riff name like you've got, like, I've got a bottle called Ken Griffey Jr. It's not like like Ken Griffey had anything to do with it. It's not like the group were sitting there talking about baseball stats, when it happened. They just thought of a funny name and, and put it on a sticker, like that's all it is like it doesn't actually have any sort of connotation to the day or memory or anything like that. 48:53 However, there's another slide of this when it comes to the marketing aspect when it goes on to the Facebook forum. 49:00 When people started learning about it i mean this is a real differentiator like do you all see that like if it wasn't for going smash on a four roses bottle? Like what would that even be a thing that people elevate it to be in this 300 $350 private pick and it's just another bottle for rose or the tipsy buffalo rather exactly 49:24 if somebody comes over and is trying like a Buffalo Trace especially like the one like your pic and they point out the fact that that stickers on there it's different than the other and then I go into telling them out oh as group I'm part of that actually went and picked it so I mean non bourbon you know enthusiasts actually 49:44 get a kick out of it kind of story so yeah, not an hour like sharing all the barrel pics sweet like when people come over that's the first thing I do is like our guys what barrel pics Do you want to drive because that's like, I don't know. I think that's cooler to share those then 50:00 Just like I'll try my Pappy 20 or whatever 50:04 I'll take the Pappy 20 50:07 that's what most people want they're like I don't give a shit about you 50:14 know as a you know, as an enthusiast it's fun for me to share with people nothing they like like it to that I could be wrong 50:23 absolutely and so I kind of want to close this out on a on a another note when we're talking about just you know private barrel pics and you know whether the markets saturated or not. 50:36 Is there a reason that anybody should slow down with with these when you're when you're thinking about a company's or anything like that because it seems like there is demand it's going to be happening. And I guess maybe not. I'll rephrase that maybe not slow down from a manufacturing perspective 50:56 should should store slow down in regards of what they should be. 51:00 What a offer because maybe they're trying to push other products just to sell just so they have these opportunities. And, and just to be able to sell a bottle. I don't know like 51:11 I think bourbon enthusiasts are just increasing the numbers daily, so I don't think we're at the peak right now. So I think there's still plenty of people to come into your liquor store and buy, you know, four bottles of fireball to go get drunk, and there's a guy that wants to come in and get as many privates like the guys he can that you earn. 51:33 Yeah, no, I'm with you. I mean, 51:37 I think they should keep doing because I mean, they are fun and they, they're, it's the only way to get a unique kind of experience and bottle then, you know, the limited release game has just gotten so out of control. Like where it's just, it's always camping, it's emails. It's this it's that and it's even the store pics are kind of going that way. And so that's what's nice about 52:00 What we're offering, you know, to our people, it's fun for us to do that and offer to our Patreon people, but being in a bourbon group to like having access to this, so I mean, I don't think they should slow down. I mean, the people are talking about new riff and you know, compared to like, bigger distilleries, and what I think this sounds boring, but that they should do a cost benefit analysis and maybe, you know, Russell's and all the big boys, it's really not beneficial to them to keep doing these. And whereas someone like new riff or a newer guy, they're gaining a lot of exposure around it. And it's really helped catapulting their brand and they should really embrace this. And it kind of reminds me of like, when I went to Napa, and like you go to like cake bread or Opus one, and it's like, oh, these are these great, distinguished brands and you go and it's like the lamest experience ever. But then you go to this like mom and pop winery, where you meet the proprietor and you like, and they're like, it's real intimate and, and I think that's just how it's going to be with 53:00 bourbon kinda as it keeps evolving is that you're gonna have these big boys then you're have all these little small guys and they're going to have to offer unique experiences through private pics or coming to the distillery hanging out with you know the the distiller and creating that connection 53:17 yeah i think that this should keep on rolling with them as much as possible because I love them all right. 53:24 I lied I have I have one more question because because I keep thinking about this and I It reminds me of like a post I saw earlier. And I see I see things in the secondary market that are then just single barrel pics that are being sold for the extraordinary amounts. I kind of want to get your all state Michael first like are people dumb? Like do they need like a reality? Do they need to reality check to say like, this is just another barrel pick like That's all it is. It's not going to change your life. yet. People are spending exhausted amounts, maybe because of the sticker or maybe 54:00 Because it came from a particular group, like I want to kind of get your take on one of the same people that are paying $900 for CYPV was that it's it is ridiculous. 54:11 Yeah, I don't I can't imagine ever buying products like going to a secondary market myself. I mean, I have a hard time buying other models in the secondary market. I just kind of take my chances in DC. Yeah, yeah. 54:24 Yeah, I'm with So Bill Nall says private pics play to the fo mo and fo mo is like, bourbon is fo mo it's like the perfect product for fo mo it's 54:35 you know, there's in single barrels or even more of that because it's like we only have this one barrel. There's never going to be another one like it and this whoever picked it and it's like it's the perfect product for that and people. They like Rarity and scarcity and like if it's the more rare and scarce it is, the more irrational they're going to be about it. You know, it's we are all done in this game. 55:00 We all got our like our bad habits This is like I shit for mine. Like there's no rational reasoning behind this hobby or it does that 55:11 mean we go Kenny you go on these pics you go at even like we do pursuit series I mean there's barrels of whiskey like, like, just like you don't believe I mean there's so much whiskey out there and you're like and it is just another barrel whiskey but there is that connection to is there's that Rarity about there's that specialness about it that people just go ape shit over and it's it's just like anything you know, it's like getting you like Porsches and you know you really want a Porsche or Mercedes and it's like, well why the Volkswagens made by the same people and it says same shit you know that it's a Porsche you know, it's got the branding and everything behind it. It's just, it's marketing at its finest. You know, it's, that's that's what we deal with. So that is the fun part about this because 56:00 It makes it unique, right? It makes it a it makes it a an experience that you're able to buy a bottle and have a connection to it have a story behind it, you know the person or you know the group that that, that purchase that or that anything like that. And so you do have this connection behind that particular bottle and I think that is fun. I just think that we need to kind of like dial the height meter back, maybe maybe 20 decibels in regards to this because people just need to understand and Ryan, you said it best. You know, we have the opportunity. Anybody that goes and visits, any distillery anyone and you look around you look at all the warehouses. Just understand, it's just another barrel of whiskey. It's another one. Yeah, there's there's always going to be another one down the road. So don't you worry about that, but not that one. But not that let's see, that's what you get. That's that's what that's the hook. That's what keeps you not your suit series. 56:59 You need all the 57:00 Rose yes absolutely but that's that's kind of what keeps you hooked in is like you like what if I miss out it is and the thing is Kenny we know that and I know that but it's still I still can't get past it and I don't care because it's the Chase is the fun that's you know it's just part of the fun hobby we were enthralled with no no, I'm totally with you. So let's go ahead we'll end it on that note because I think we we did enough insulting of pretty much the whole industry at this point. So this was this was a really good conversation So Michael, please 57:34 make fun of everybody including myself. Mike want to say thank you for coming on and giving you this. This this topic to talk about it was it was really good and I want you to kind of give a plug if people want to get in contact with your or anything like that. If they can find you any kind of social. How they can follow you there. I'm on Twitter. I don't you know, not that funny but MIKG 316 1989 58:00 There we go. It's all good. Yeah, follow him there. Follow us on all the social media channels, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, at bourbon pursuit. And always make sure that you leave iTunes reviews too, because we love iTunes reviews and only share with a friend because that's what helps grow this show more. And All right, I'll kind of hand it off over to you, buddy. Yeah, reviews are great. But telling your friends even better, because you can share this wonderful experience and call them down to you know, 58:29 after they get involved with it. So now Michael, appreciate the time appreciate the show suggestion. That's what we'd love about the show is hearing from our fans and interacting with them. So if you have any things you want to talk about or hear about, let us know. And just we love hearing from you guys and we'll see you next time. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Poop, farting, pregnancy and pizza. Figure that out. Secret time: Sean is a pizza connoisseur. Genna showed up for a lil bit and helped us figure out the meaning of the number 60. It gets a little weird. So Michael starts singing. Then the boys get into a discussion on customer service. Both have had jobs dealing with the public and talk about the woes vs what is good about it. https://unchurchedpodcast.wordpress.com Email: unchurchedpod@gmail.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/unchurchedpod/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/UnChurchedPod

So Michael & Kevin owe everyone a huge apology, as there was no show last week, along with no announcement about it.  Life happened, unlike anything in wrestling...until the day before they recorded this episode.  The guys cover the surprise promotion/announcement that Paul Heyman & Eric Bischoff are becoming Executive Directors for Raw & SmackDown, respectively.  They also discuss Seth Rollins going on the social media offensive on behalf of WWE, and dread the impending toxicity to come from this AEW/WWE "war." #WWE #NXT #RAW #Smackdown #ROH #AEW #JourneyPro #Wrestling #ProWrestling

Today's Topic How we Timeloop Fiction So we are looking to run a story with a timeloop. So Michael and Jeffery talk a bit about what we would make a good story elements when time keeps repeating. So join us as we start the timeloop. So we are looking at … nooooooo Please Subscribe, Rate and Review us on iTunes For complete Fantasy Worldbuilding, show notes go to Gardul.com Podcast Show flow What is a timeloop Important Items for What causes the timeloop to repeat The Protagonist The Antagonist ???? Day 1 Alternate Scenes Random Scenes Closing Scenes What are the irritations? What are black herrings? What breaks the timeloop? Is there other limiters? Worldbuilding Task What is the timeloop in your world? Real world task Share the quick idea about your timeloop in the Facebook undercroft group Michael's Resources Use Gardul.com/Amazon when shopping online to help support the show Links ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Visit Show notes ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://www.gardul.com/blog/episode-269-the-anvil-goes-looping/ ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Mentions links ))))))))))))))))))))))))) HowToWorldbuild.com   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Rate and Review us in iTunes ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/worldbuilders-anvil/id956705643?mt=2   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Like our Facebook Page ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://www.facebook.com/GardulStories/   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Join our Facebook Group ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://www.facebook.com/groups/undercroft/   ((((((((((((((((((((((( Support us by using our Amazon Affiliate Link ))))))))))))))))))))) http://gardul.com/Amazon   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Jeff on Twitter  ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://twitter.com/JefferyWIngram

On this episode of CTO Studio, we talk extensively about CTO authority versus CTO leadership with Michael Bastos. Michael was the CTO of a San Diego company called LocalStack before moving to Austin, Texas to run the benefits API team for the VA’s web site. Having been in positions of leadership and authority in the civilian world and in the military, Michael joins us to talk about the differences and similarities in each. We also dig into the Austin tech scene and what it’s like to work for two CTOs in his current role. Join us for those topics and much more on today's CTO Studio. In this episode, you’ll hear: When do you need to have uncomfortable conversations about leadership and authority? What two books changed his entire career path? How did he transition from being a CTO to working under another CTO? Why negotiation is very much a part of leadership. Do leadership and authority both require high risks for high rewards? And so much more! My first question is about the Austin tech scene - what is it like these days? He says it is different, not from a negative perspective. In San Diego he has watched the tech scene grow and he knew the people who worked hard to make it what it is today. It became one person helping another person, everyone lifting each other up. But Austin has a lot of big, established companies already so it's harder to have that same close-knit feeling to others in the tech scene. It's much harder to get that same feeling because there are established businesses plus others coming in from San Francisco. There are differences among technology leaders in Austin too, some are doing old things and others are doing new. The old tech is still valid and still enterprising, but you also have new tech showing up like GraphQL. And those two worlds don't mix all that often. Next we talk about his transition from being a CTO of local San Diego company and then he moved to Austin to take a position as the Head of Engineering for a real estate startup. Now he is in a role with a company that is building VA.gov's API.  Having been a CTO, he now works for another CTO in a contracting role and is running the Benefits API team for develooper.va.gov. They are building out VA's entire external API infrastructure for VA's new external system. Among other things, it allows outsider contributors to come in and build applications for veterans and the like. As a veteran himself, he especially likes being involved in a project like this one. What are some of the main apps that he sees being built or is it too early to tell? They have everything built already in terms of infrastructure. Originally the project started out as Vets.gov and then it did so well over time that they basically took over the VA.gov site. It's a pretty well established project now, they have full CI and deployments. It is mostly Rails-based and for the most part everything they do is public. Also on today’s CTO studio, we talk about how he came to be in the Marine Corps after having been born in Brazil. His dad called his bluff and said Michael would be moving out when he turned 18, whether he was in college or not. So Michael went out and visited a bunch of recruiters, including a recruiter from the Marine Corps.  But Michael's dad was bluffing - Michael's older brother moved back in as soon as he left! He laughs about it now and says it was the best bluff in the sense that his dad probably wouldn't have kicked him out, but it gave Michael the push to get out into the world. Which leads us to talk about our main topic: authority versus leadership as a CTO. Having been in the Marine Corps, he knows firsthand about authority so I wanted to talk about the issue of authority versus leadership. I asked him to explain the challenges of authority that are inherent with being a CTO. Michael breaks it down by sharing something he was taught in the Marine Corps about Marine Corps leadership. Authority and leadership are two very different things. Most people think they are one and the same. Authority is granted, it is given and is not necessarily something you can take. Leadership is the actions people have. You can have authority without having any leadership. And you can have leadership without having any authority.  Leadership is how to treat people. The perfect concept of leadership and authority is when those two positions merge. When you have somebody that is both a leader and is willing to accept those responsibilities and that role, they are the person people go to. Developers are excited to work with these types of people whether they are CTOs or the head of engineers or another similar role. He's been in both scenarios: he's been the guy who had to learn the leadership side because he was given authority without understanding anything about leadership, and he's also been the leader with zero authority but had people come to him because he could answer their questions or help them with their problems. It's beneficial to understand each of these ideas and to also understand where you are at: are you a leader without authority or do you have authority and need to develop leadership? What are some symptoms that you are in the first scenario? Michael answers this question as well as some great insights and wisdom on negotiating. Tune in to hear the details on today’s CTO Studio with Michael Bastos.   Episode Resources: Michael Bastos on LinkedIn Getting to Yes, by Roger Fisher, William Ury and Bruce Patton Getting Past No, by William Ury Pitching Anything, by Oren Klaff https://github.com/department-of-veterans-affairs GitHub for VA 7CTOs  

Summary: Devon Watson and Michael Engel discuss all things Connected Commerce. In this episode, both touch on the unparalleled services and technology that are essential to evolve in an 'always on' and changing consumer landscape. Resources:  Blog: Connected Commerce: It’s Not Just for Retailers Exploring the Path to Connected Commerce Advertorial: Michael Engel on Pymnts.com COMMERCE NOW (Diebold Nixdorf Podcast)   Diebold Nixdorf Website   Transcription:    Devon Watson:           This is commerce now. My name is Devon Watson, chief marketing officer for Diebold Nixdorf. Really excited this week. We have Michael Engel here with me. We're in Phuket, Thailand, meeting with our Asia Pacific team and talking about all things connected commerce. So Michael, if you could please just give us a quick intro, tell us a little bit about what you do with the company. You and I bumped into each other all over the world. Uh, give us, uh, just kind of quick background, who you are, what you do. Michael Engel:           Well, my background has been in suffer all my life more or less professional life, um, and in banking. So, um, I've been traveling around the world talking to different customers and my job is officially being responsible for our software sales globally in banking. But the nice side effect of that is that you can talk to customers and you listen to customers and having that privilege, getting so much knowledge from the different geographies and then being able to consolidate all of that and drive that back into our R and d organization. That is the fun part really of the job. So really getting to know what is happening in the market, where the concerns of our customers, but also see the different cultures, the different drivers in those markets really bring together that knowledge that we can then utilize and transformed that into innovations and products and solutions so that that's what it's basically all about. Devon Watson:           Yeah. So you're, you're kind of a really important glue between the customer base and the product slash r and d organization, which is just a fantastic place to be in. You obviously are in a global role. So I imagine that you might have a fantastic frequent flyer mile account. Do you know how many miles he did last year meeting with customers? Michael Engel:           A bunch. So accumulated there probably in the seven digit number. So I'm not truly sure if that's a good number. Yeah, Devon Watson:           it's kind of like winning the, uh, the race that you never wanted to enter. Exactly. Exactly. Well, so this customer connectivity, right? The amount of time that you spend around the world meeting with customers. Can you give us a little bit of flavor about the Fintech Revolution? Right. So, uh, I think last year there was some like $26,000,000,000 went into financial technology, startups and innovation and a lot of the customers that I talked to at conferences and in my travels they're wrestling with how do they respond to that? How do they incorporate that? Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, what you're hearing around the world. Michael Engel:           Well, I strongly believed that fintechs are positive disruption of our industry. The reason why I say this is banks are there to provide the element of trust which very good and very important. However, in the past you to regulations and also the tendency to stick as human beings to the known and that's also in business and the business processes created an environment where although bangs for very sound, organizations that were also very hard to move. And if we look into our society today, then technology has made an amazing seeing happen. And that is the cadence and speed of innovation that we see today. So if you look into the past then you had like every hundred years and major invention then every 50 years, every 20 years, every year, and now we're not talking years anymore. It's really down to months or weeks or even days when you see the new and next thing coming up. Michael Engel:           So that speed of innovation at the same time is a very good thing because it's enabling us today was utilizing that technology. So just think about what you do today with your smartphone or your tablet in terms of ordering your ticket for coming here, checking in, organizing transportation to the hotel, getting recommendations were to die and where to stay. So you basically organize everything that took in the past couple of weeks to prepare that trip. You do that and a couple of clicks. So that enablement is what people like today, this is what people want, but that is also what they know because in every commercial transaction there's this financial element involved. Now expect also from the bank to support that. So this is the big challenge where now these fintechs are coming in and say, okay, here is little sweet spot and we create based on that technology, a solution for that particular sweet spot, which is good because that gives some or bring some dynamic into this whole world at the same time it starts a thought process within the bank to say, okay, we need to be in a similar way like those fintechs. So how can we embrace the results coming out of the Fintech, how can we integrate that into our own it environment and how can we even leverage our strengths of the element of trust being a sound financial organization and that speed of innovation and bring all of that together. That's Devon Watson:           the real trick, right? So, so at a, at a corporate level, you know, we've engaged some different ways in this wave ourselves. So we're a, we're a member of Fintech 71, which is a selarator primarily for financial technology companies, uh, bringing together a bunch of different innovation hubs in the U. S we're also a member of workbench, which is a venture capital and startup, a innovation fund in New York City, and we're working with startup companies and large companies as well in R and d portfolio. Clearly. So, you know, we're engaged in it. The banks are engaged in it. When you talk to a customer for the, you know, for the bankers listening to us, you know, what would your advice be on how our customers and dibels next door can work together to kind of ride this wave navigated as partners? Michael Engel:           Yeah. You mentioned the term glue in the beginning in terms of how we transform, um, so to speak knowledge that we pick up from the market and bring that back into our own organization. If I'm in a certain way, bangs need similar glue because on the one side they, they sit on a wealth of data and information about what we do as customers was any financial transaction that we execute. Well, leveraging that information is still yet to come. Um, second thing is you have all this existing financial, uh, information including the business processes sitting in different core banking systems, but they're very much siloed, so there's not much connectivity between data in one bucket to the data turn, another bucket, and if you think about the evolution of the IT industry is all about taking data, taking processes that are manual today and automate them and really bringing this together as the fundamental idea of what we do in connected commerce. Michael Engel:           So we're kind of the glue bringing all of these elements together and bring that to the end consumer because that's the important thing. So how can we get better, more automated processes to a customer because to me it's beyond the traditional view of you have a bank and you have a Fintech, the Fintech as the innovator that shakes things up and let you think to innovate and to thrive. Now some of the technologies that are used in there, like the whole idea of the API economy, blockchain, all of that. These are just enablers, but these enablers go beyond the financial industry per se. It involves us as a consumer. It involves every solution provider or retailer or merchant that's out there because in any transaction we don't think banking. We think buying a car, getting a new house, I'm traveling to book it now. That is what we want to do and if this consumer customer journey, we need to involve a sort of financial transaction, whether that's buying flight ticket or whether it's getting the mortgage for the house. Michael Engel:           If we bring those elements together through an API economy, that is what really consumers are expecting from us and this is where I also see as the role of the bank being that aggregator, being that glue and as Sdi service provider, we need to provide the frameworks, the components that make that process faster so banks will not start from scratch building that way. So they are looking to guys like us to say, okay, is there something in the box that is open source technology that are prebuilt components that are frameworks, that are tools that are interfaces precertified based on all the government regulations that you have from the world. Services that you can give me to gain more speed to accelerate, to be in the best meaning of the word. More Agile. Devon Watson:           No, that's very helpful. And I think one of the things that I'm hearing kind of loud and clear, you know, talking to clients, talking to you know, our subject matter experts and thought leaders like yourself is this mind shift from thinking in terms of channel silos to now thinking in terms of more holistic consumer journey and how to enable that end to end and play a larger role in that kind of commerce supply chain if you will. Well this has been a great conversation. I always love learning from, you know, our guys that are out there with the customers on the front lines talking to customers around the world and I think that ability to take knowledge from one place transpose it on a global basis is probably one of the more powerful things that we bring to the market. So like kindle. Thank you very, very much. Michael Engel:           Maybe one last word on that. I'm traveling around the world has two aspects to it. On the one side, you'll see all the variety and differences in the different geos and is important for us to understand that there is no one size fits all on the one side. However, there are certain similarities and fundamental elements that we need to provide and to really find a balance of how much standardization infrastructure of frameworks that can be reused globally do we need to provide, which is important for r and d organization, but how can we also be very flexible to put in the regional flavors, what is really needed in a certain society, in a given economical environment. I think that is what we've learned out of history that no, there is not a one size fits all, that we drive from the US, from Europe, from wherever into the world is really understanding the local needs while bringing that together in a standardized set of components and frameworks and that is represented in the whole connected commerce idea. Devon Watson:           Fantastic. No great stuff. Really appreciate the time. This was a fun conversation. I hope. I hope our listeners are learning from these and uh, look forward to seeing you again somewhere else around the world. Thanks.    

We discuss the idea of being a black executive in Corporate America with Frost Bank President Michael Williams.Michael Williams' LinkedInHelp Beat Triple Negative DCIS Breast CancerTRANSCRIPTZach: It was a dream job, the type of assignment that could make or break the career of an ambitious executive with an eye towards the top. "It was my first big promotion," says Bernard J. Tyson, the 57-year-old CEO of Kaiser Permanente, a health care company with nearly $60 billion in annual revenue. The year was 1992, and Tyson, then in his early thirties, had been named administrator of one of Kaiser's newest hospitals in Santa Rosa, California. "Everyone knew this was the hospital to lead," he says. His physician partner, an elderly white gentleman named Dr. Richard Stein, was less excited by the news. "It was one of those "Guess who's coming to dinner?" sort of welcomes," Tyson recalls, and it went downhill from there. The two men were constantly at odds, unable to collaborate, with most conversations ending in angry standoffs. "He would say something, and I would react," says Tyson. "It was the most difficult relationship I have ever had." Failure seemed inevitable. One day, Stein invited Tyson for a walk. "He said, "I have to confess something to you, something that may end our relationship,"" Tyson recalls. "I have never worked with a black man like this." He meant as a peer. Stein, it seems, didn't know what to say, to act, what to expect. Tyson saw it for the opening it was. "It was this moment I realized the majority of the population doesn't have any sort of mental road map for how to relate to and work with someone different from themselves." This is an excerpt from Why Race and Culture Matter in the C-Suite, an article written by Ellen McGirt, for Fortune Magazine, and I believe it highlights the reality many people of color in leadership face every day. Being in spaces where few of us are present is challenging enough, but compounding that with the task of leading teams, as in telling them what to do? How does one succeed in that environment? Further, what does success even look like? This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about what it means to be a leader of people while also being a person of color in Corporate America.Ade: Yeah. So to be honest, I usually get so focused on making sure that I'm good in my career and navigating all the nonsense involved with making sure that my individual contributions are recognized. I usually don't even think about what it means to lead a team full of people who don't look, think, or behave like I do.Zach: I know, right? And to your point, all of those things you just mentioned, they're critical and of course very important and really don't change as you become a leader, but it's interesting because when you look at that article that I read by Ellen McGirt, it highlights Bernard Tyson's experience about white men having to engage him as a equal. So I'm a manager, so I'm not an executive. I'm not a CEO. Nothing fancy like that. I'm the manager, but even as my managerial experience, I can say that beyond leading a team, being in a position where folks who would typically have to--or typically would overlook me actually have to submit to listening to my ideas and my proposals and my direction. It's been a really interesting experience. Ade: Hm. So I hear you, I get your point, but do you perhaps have any examples for us?Zach: For sure. So a few years ago I was working on a project where I was dealing with a manager, and I was telling them what the approach should be for a specific task. I was walking them through the methodology and just the reason and rationale behind why we were gonna make this approach, and as I'm talking to him his face starts just turning bright red. Ade: What? [laughs]Zach: Yeah. [laughs] Like, it's like he ate, like, a habanero pepper or a ghost pepper, and he's trying to hold it in that it's not spicy. Like, he doesn't want anyone to know it's spicy, right? So he's just sitting in there, and his head is shaking, and he's got a little vein bulging out the side of his head. I'm like--Ade: What in the world?Zach: I know! And so I'm talking to him, and I'm just kind of--I'm just having my normal--I'm not talking at him, right? I'm just talking to him. I'm having a normal exchange, and I'm trying to, like, keep up the same casual cadence of my talk while seeing him clearly, clearly be uncomfortable.Ade: Huh. So I'm just curious. Like, was there anyone else in the room who saw this? Who, like, witnessed what was going on and pointing it out?Zach: Yeah. So I was in the room, then my manager was in the room, and he was in the room of course. So they saw this the whole time, and it wasn't like a one-time occurrence, right? So for those folks listening like, "Well, maybe it was just a one-time thing. Maybe he had a hard day." He had multiple hard days, okay? Ade: [laughs] It be like that sometimes.Zach: [laughs] Right? It happened so many times. It happened, like, literally every time we spoke. We spoke once a week for, like, two months, two or three months, and I'm like, "This happens every single time." So now--even when I spoke to my manager about it, I'm like, "Hey, are you noticing this?" Like, "Do you see what's happening here?" You know, she was even reluctant to admit and acknowledge, like, "Oh, I do notice this," and so why she was so uncomfortable talking about the situation and why she was even more reticent to talk to other people about the situation, including, like, our project manager, is for another podcast, but needless to say it was pretty weird.Ade: Okay. Well, I know that you've had experiences as a manager. I personally have not. I am, like we've said multiple times, at the beginning of my career, but wouldn't it be great if we had someone on the show who had about 20 years of experience as an executive within the finance industry, which--Zach: 20 years?Ade: 20. I would argue that the finance industry is one of the most politically-charged spaces, but you didn't hear that from me. So I'm not sure. I feel like it would be good if we had someone who has had to climb multiple ladders, maybe build coalitions of support, maybe who has had active participation as a leader in his community and has acted as a mentor to other people of color.Zach: Hm. You mean like--wait a minute, let me check my notes--you mean like our guest Michael Williams?Ade and Zach: Whaaaat?Zach: [imitating air horns]Ade: Never gonna get tired of that. [laughs] All right, so next we're going to get into our interview with our guest Michael Williams. Hope you guys enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as Ade said, we have Michael Williams on the show. Michael, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the pod, man.Michael: Man, thank you so much for inviting me.Zach: Absolutely. So for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background?Michael: Sure, sure. I guess--where to start? I'm originally from Dallas, but I moved here and attended Texas Southern University and the University of Houston. Met my wife, who is an only child, and guess what? I was gonna stay a Houstonian. So after school--I had always wanted to be in banking, so I started down that line of pursuing a career in banking, and I have not looked back since. I guess it's been going on 27 years. 26, 27 years. Somewhere in there. I need to do the math. It's in there.Zach: [laughing] That's awesome. So when did you first start leading and managing teams in Corporate America?Michael: So I've been leading a team of corporate bankers for about eight years now, and I actually--for the bank I'm currently employed, I actually am what's called a market president. I run the entire [Southwood?] side for the bank. So I have a team of 13 commercial lenders that work directly for me, and the way we're structured, while I don't do anything in the branches, I have three branches--excuse me, five branches where my people are located, but all of those individuals have a dotted line responsibility under me as well. So while I in effect manage 13 directly, I have actually management I guess authority for somewhere over about 40, 45 people.Zach: Wow, that's amazing. So, you know, this show we're talking about--we're talking about leading while black, and so can you explain a bit for the audience--and shoot, for myself as well--the difference between being a manager and being an executive? And in your career, how do you manage that shift?Michael: Sure, sure. You know, it's--one of the things I continue to do is just aspire to read. I'm an avid reader, and I've read many books on not only how to manage but also--frankly, if someone would have told me management was more about managing the people relative to how they coexist, I would've actually got--instead of getting a degree in finance, I would've gotten a degree in psychology, because really that's where the buck stops. If you can understand that you have influence as a manager, you can easily--and I don't mean just regular influence. I mean you have to understand that everything you do has the ability to set the table up for your future, and those decisions that you make, you need to be calculating because you have the ability to influence people without you even knowing it. And so when I made the switch is when I decided to get an advocate for me at a senior level that allowed that person to see me and my skill set and be able to be my advocate above my pay grade to allow people to say, "Okay, this guy, he not only knows what he's doing, but he's also someone that we can actually incorporate into our senior management team."Zach: That's really interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about when you say advocate and really what you mean when you say advocate, and what were some of the things that they were able to do for you as you were able to transition into that next level of leadership?Michael: Sure. Here's the one thing we all have to--the people who--the vast majority of your audience needs to understand. As a minority--and I'm African-American, so as an African-American minority, the one thing that we don't have is direct access to the highest levels of any corporation, and in many instances, as it stands today, there are not gonna be a lot of people that look like us. And so I remember back when I was at another institution and there was one senior-level African-American gentleman there. That individual decided that it was in his own best interest not to uplift and promote and advocate for younger African-Americans. It was a sad--it was a sad sight to see. It was a very difficult experience to go through personally, but what I learned from that, I took away from that is I will never do that to anyone.Zach: Amen.Michael: Because people sitting back trying to figure out how to gain more ability--excuse me, more control and/or allow their skill set to show that they have the ability to be at the next table, and he would block them 100%.Zach: Wow.Michael: And so my career has been all about making sure that I help those coming behind me who have the requisite skill set and the requisite training. That's first and foremost. So in terms of--in terms of understanding your point, how you make that switch, the biggest thing is you need to--I said find an advocate, but you also, in my mind, have to bring people up behind you that are highly competent and qualified, and now you've got this team of people around you, and if you have that advocate, they see that and they want talent. They want talent absolutely. They just have not been used to having talent, and they certainly--in terms of African-American talent. So they don't necessarily embrace that, but what they do is they lead those people to the side to try to figure out who's on first, what's on second, and how you actually get to tell them you're on first and John is on second and Theodore is on third or whatever the case is is you have to embrace getting someone to get to know you. So in my--in my (life?) career, when I figured that out in my previous institution, I actually had the chairman of the bank--excuse me, the president of the bank here in Texas as my mentor. Today, I've got the president of the bank as my mentor. He is the #2 in the bank. We meet on a quarterly basis. I don't ask him for anything. I ask him for his time, and I want to share his--I want him to share his thoughts, and he wants to hear my thoughts about a various, just a various amount of things. It has nothing to do directly with "How do I get promoted?" "How do I do this?" It's all about just communication, because what I'm trying to do and what I have learned, if you break those walls down and are able to communicate, then that allows that person to see you as someone that they can feel comfortable with, and that really is the biggest barrier to any minority trying to break into the upper levels of executive management if it's not your company because they don't know us as a people, as a rule. All they do is listen to, unfortunately, Fox News and other similar detracting and negative news accounts about us as a people in general, and they make these generalizations without knowing you individually.Zach: We introed the show talking about and sharing a story from Bernard Tyson, who is the CEO of Kaiser Permanente, his experience in having to deal with individuals who had never worked with a black man as a peer. So I'm curious to know how many instances you've had where you've said, "Wow, you've clearly never worked with a black man before." Like, has that happened? And if so, would you mind sharing a story or two?Michael: Sure, sure. That has absolutely happened, and you could see it coming 100% down the line. It's amazing. I've had it happen so many times, but I remember a couple of different instances. I'll give you a couple stories. One, as a young analyst, you know, all of us who come through commercial lending, investment banking, all of these corporate-type lending groups, we all have to go through this vetting process and this training process, and it's generally about a year, and we'd learn all this stuff, and then we're out--we're put into these groups, and we're analysts, so we're at the bottom of the rung, right? We're [runts?]. And so I'm in this group, and this--[laughs] calling him a gentleman is good. It's way above where he was in [inaudible], however this gentleman ran the group, and this was--this was in the early '90s. And so this guy--to give you kind of just an overall view of who he is, this guy would smoke in his office. It was illegal to smoke inside of the building, but he would smoke in his office. But he was an old head, he was a successful old head, and senior management didn't bother him. So they let him smoke in his office. Well, okay. So this guy, the manager of group, he was clear that he did not like me, and he made himself clear by several different things that he did. And I'll give you one nice example. So I am in the habit of drinking a gallon of water today, and actually I still do that to this day, and I had my jug that had a lot of water in it, and we were in meetings, and he turns to me in front of everybody and says, "Why do you have all that water?" "Because I like to drink a lot of water." He said, "Well, you know what? That is so sophomoric of you. It's like you're a little kid with a jug." I was like, "Whoa. Okay, this is just water." So we go forward. I take that as a note and I keep moving. Of course I didn't get rid of my water. I just decided to hide it from him all of the time. So there was an instance where when we get into work in the morning we would go get something to eat for breakfast, 'cause typically we'd have to get in early, so we typically would get something to eat for breakfast. My counterpart, the young analyst that was with me, would go--she would check into the office, sit down, turn her computer on, and then go get something to eat. I would go get something to eat, come back, check in and sit down and get something--and start working. I was told that I was habitually late. Now, mind you, I got in before it was the normal working hours all of the time, but because I got breakfast first, came back to my desk, she came to her desk, checked in, meaning face time--and I'm using total air quotes right now--Zach: Right. [laughs]Michael: Meaning face time. It was acceptable to do what she was doing and unacceptable to do what I was doing, and these are very small, minor things, right? Well, one thing everyone needs to take away from anything--if you don't take anything else away from what I'm saying, it is absolutely this - you cannot progress, move up, move forward in any career unless management likes you. Period. Stop. End of story. You could be the most highly-qualified, the brightest--have the brightest mind, have the best work ethic, but if your manager does not like you you will not be able to move up. As a matter of fact, your job is in peril and you don't even know it.Zach: So that was when you were, you know, a new analyst. You were coming in. You were getting hired. You're working for the old head. Was there anybody--was there any instance or experience you had as a leader where you were like, "Wow. Okay, you've clearly never dealt with a person of color before." Michael: Oh, sure. Sure. So we're working on a very sizeable transaction, and my team is managing--I am managing my team, and it's one of my lender's opportunities, and this deal is north of $100 million, so it's gonna be a nice year--Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You said one zero zero million dollars?Michael: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I do corporate lendings, so, I mean, I've worked on several significant-sized transactions for many publicly-traded companies in my past.Zach: Wow.Michael: So at any rate, this is gonna be our year. This deal is basically gonna make our year. So this is my deal. We're working on it, and unbeknownst to me there was some chatter in the background by a counterpart, so another manager, and this person made some questionable comments about me and my ability to lead us through the closing of this deal. I had never even interacted with this guy, so the things that he was saying about me and my inefficiencies. He went on about being efficient, not having ever done a deal of this size before, it actually needs to be done by him and his group. Zach: Wow.Michael: You know? And I sat back and I said, "Wow, interesting." For me, one of the things I'm real keen on is documentation, and so along the way of that particular process I was able to have my documentation in order so that the president, who was the final arbiter, came down to find out what was going on and why we were having some discord, and I simply said, "I'm not sure." And this is another nice little note here. Michelle Obama said it best. "When they go low, we go high." Never get into the mud when people are throwing mud at you. Never. Never. Because you will never win that situation as a minority. You will never win that situation. Even if you win that situation, you've lost. You've just lost because they're already afraid of you, they don't know you, and then now you've got quote-unquote real with somebody, oh, they don't want you around. They don't want you around. That scares the living crap out of them.Zach: But this is my thing. So Michael--like, for those--you know, I've known you, or at least I've known of you for a while, and so I know--but you are a keep it real type of dude, and you're definitely not, like, a back down kind of guy. So let's talk about this documentation and how you stood up for yourself, right? 'Cause I know that's not who you are, so let's keep it real, right? Like, let's--Michael: [laughs] Oh, you are so real with it, and I will admit 100% to have always been an enforcer. I'm just gonna be clear about that. I'm not gonna lie about who I am as a person. Zach: Amen. [laughs]Michael: I grew up--I didn't give you all of the background, but I grew up in the projects of south Dallas. So I grew up fighting. I know how to fight, man. That's not even a question. These hands are real good. These hands are real good. However, what I've--what I've learned over my career is that in order for me to be who I want to be--and now, maybe earlier on I probably would've put hands on him or done something that probably would have not allowed me to move forward as far as I have today, however he caught me at a time in my life where I know better, and I know that I am--my level of intelligence taught me early on, through my mistakes probably, but I wanted to be able to be smarter, more intelligent, and more calculating. I can't say that enough. Here's my phrase that I say all of the time. "I play chess, not checkers." And in life and in Corporate America, it's always chess. If you think you're playing checkers, you've just lost. It's always chess. You've got to think two to three steps ahead and why is that going on and why did that just happen? See, it just didn't happen for a reason. Something happened. And oh, by the way, there are multiple conversations going on without you even knowing about it. You don't even know conversations are happening and they're happening. So it's not about trying to be paranoid or being paranoid. It's all about realizing that they're having these conversations, making these judgments, making some assumptions about you without you even knowing about it. So go back to your question. I have always documented what's going on, and I've always done that to the point of understanding two things. One, it helps me to make sure I'm clear about what's going on, and then two, there's a little saying--although I've never been soothed, there's a little saying that says, "Everything is discoverable," meaning I look at--I look at every situation like there's a lawsuit pending, and as long as I'm looking at it like there's a lawsuit pending or this could promote a lawsuit, I make sure that not only am I keeping my ducks in a row, but I make sure I limit the things that I say that are a part of public record, be it in writing or orally, because I want to limit my exposure while documenting and keeping up with what everybody else is doing.Zach: See, the thing about it is I'm kind of--I'm kind of shook, to be honest with you. Right? [laughs] I'm kind of like, "Okay." Like, I'm listening to you, and honestly I'm hoping that my sound man puts a little bit of House of Cards type music in the background because I'm hearing what you're saying. I don't disagree, right? So this is just good information to have, and I'm a few rungs down the ladder, and so politically understanding how to navigate these spaces--and there are plenty of people who are listening to this show who are aspiring to get there. I'm curious though. We have folks in our spaces, and I think as you know when you look at the history of civil rights and just black liberation, you have to have allies. You have to have folks that don't look like you who are advocating for you. You talked about advocacy at the beginning of our interview. I'm curious to know--you know, there are people who do look like us, but there are people who don't look like us also who listen to this show who are passionate about diversity and inclusion, who are passionate about being supportive and really leading that next generation. What advice do you have, right, for our non-Wakandan brothers and sisters listening in?Michael: As I cross my arms and let my fists down.Zach: And bounce your shoulders a little bit. [laughs]Michael: [laughs] Right, bounce up a little bit. Let me tell you this. The thing that I can say is judge people--I mean, it's funny. MLK said it best. "Judge people for the content of their character, not for the color of their skin." Yes. Are there people out there that have--are trying to run a [gang?] Maybe not as qualified but have snuck into the door, yes, but guess what? That's on both sides. Zach: Hm.Michael: That is not exclusive to minorities, and in particular African-American minorities. That's on both sides of the equation. So judge people for their content, their capacity, and their intellect. That's how you--that's how someone with aspirations of being an advocate can do--get work in whatever their chosen field of human endeavor is, because there--first of all, there's not enough room at the top for everyone. Period. Stop. End of story. Full stop. However, people get passed over for reasons that, in a lot of instances, didn't have to be necessarily. But it happens because that's life, right? You know, life is truly Mike Tyson's big ol' heavy hands. It just keeps coming at you, and you're gonna get your butt knocked down, and you gotta figure out whether or not you can get up and/or have the will and the power to get up because they gonna come right back at you. Those people who get up, those people who have that fighting instinct, who are intelligent, who are hungry, those are the individuals. If you can just look at them for who they are and what they bring to the table, that's a good deal.Zach: Absolutely. I'm curious--I'm curious about this, kind of as a follow-up to really what you just said. You know, are there any--are there any specific experiences or points of advice you've received in your career that have stuck with you and really helped you drive and continue forward to the place where you are today?Michael: One, have that drive, have that inquisitive nature. Always ask the question. You don't ever know what the answer is, nor should you think you would know the answer, but you've got to be willing to ask the question. And once you ask the question? Oh, by the way, learn and don't repeat whatever it is you did before. Okay? So I'm a big one-time guy. Ask me the question or let me ask the question one time or tell me one time, I got it. I've got to move forward. Now, the responsibility thereafter is on me 'cause you told me. So now I want to demonstrate whatever it is. I have the capacity not only to remember what's supposed to happen here but to incorporate it into what I'm doing and move forward. That's one. Two, more important than anything else, never ever lose yourself. Whoever you are, it is you. God brought you into this world. Your experiences up to whatever that point is have made you who you are. Never lose yourself. Learn to navigate within the political world that we live in, especially in Corporate America, and refine your edges. Like you said, you've known me. You guessed that I was a fighter, [laughs] but I've learned to smooth my edges out and to be able to be--to walk in any room and strike up a conversation. Insert name here, insert title here puts his pants on every single day like I do, one leg at a time. So he's no more special than I am in that regard. All he has done is he has made himself or have been able to get the breaks to make himself--put himself in a leadership position. Maybe at the top of the company. Maybe at the next level. It doesn't matter. He's still a person who puts his clothes on--his pants on one leg at a time, therefore I have the ability to interact with this person and find maybe some level of commonness that would allow us to engage in conversation and then, again, continuing to erode any kind of preconceived notions and ideals about who I am simply because I showed up and my skin was a little bit darker than yours. Zach: This is just so helpful, Michael. Thank you so much for joining us today. Before we let you go though, do you have any plugs? Any shout outs?Michael: Oh, what could I shout out? I could shout out my wife's foundation. I lost my wife now seven years ago to breast cancer, and I started a foundation for her in an effort to help find a cure for this dreaded, horrible cancer called triple negative DCIS cancer. It is one of the most aggressive forms of breast cancer for--unfortunately for African-American women, and we have an annual walk to celebrate her life, but also to raise funds. We raise funds through corporate giving as well. The website is www.YEF.org, and that stands for Yolanda E. Williams Foundation. YEF.org. You can go on the site. We're preparing for our October walk now. The date has not been set. We will be doing that in a matter of weeks, and you can go on the site and check that out. And so my plug is help me figure out, through raising funds and donating to research, how to get rid of this scourge called triple negative DCIS breast cancer. I don't want anything else.Zach: Amen. So this is what we're gonna do. So first of all, we'll make sure that we have that website in our show notes, and we'll shout that out when we publish this, and then what we'll also do is when you confirm the date, Michael, let us know, and we'll make sure that we shout that out on the podcast as well.Michael: I will do just that.Zach: Okay. Well, first of all, just thank you so much for joining the call. I appreciate you joining the show. I appreciate the insights and just stories that you've been able to share. We wouldn't have had you on the show if we didn't know and trust that you would give us honest, frank, transparent conversation, and I believe we've had that today. We'd like to think you're a friend of the show, and I want to thank you again, and we hope to have you back real soon.Michael: I look forward to it.Zach: All right, Michael.Michael: Count me as a friend.Zach: I will. All right, now. Peace.Michael: All right. Thank you.Ade: And we're back. Zach, that was a great interview. One thing it did remind me of though was the fact that we interviewed a black man, but because the way the system is set up--you know, sexism, racism, and all of the other -isms--I believe that if we had had a black woman on the show talking about this we might've had a slightly different conversation due to the relationship of being a black woman in positions of authority.Zach: You know what, I agree. If you don't mind though, go ahead and expound on that.Ade: Right. So I'm sure you've heard of intersectionality, although for those of our listeners who haven't, it's simply the idea that there are--that your identity form different axes of the way you relate with the world, and so that means your relationships with the world and with certain aspects of the world such as Corporate America as a black man differs from mine as a black woman, and there are different aspects of that. So your sexuality also interacts with that. Your age interacts with that. Your class interacts with that. And so all of that said, I think that if we think about things like the angry black woman trope and how that would reflect in being a leader and how, for example, black women usually aren't allowed to get angry or to express dissatisfaction with anything, otherwise it's "Oh, she's so bitter. She's so angry," as opposed to "No, I'm rightly disappointed in your work product," and all the other ways in which that could affect, you know, the final outcome as a--as a leader. I definitely would like to have that conversation with a black woman in maybe a part two, you know?Zach: You know what? That's a good point, and I agree. Let's make sure that we get a part two on the schedule and get going on that.Ade: Most def. I definitely want to interview, like, an Oprah. Trying to get my auntie on the show. Maybe a Viola Davis. Let's see what we can pop on. How are you feeling?Zach: I feel great about that. You said a Viola Davis?Ade: Or an Oprah. You know, I'm not too picky.Zach: An Ava DuVernay, perhaps?Ade: Ava DuVer--see? [inaudible]Zach: Maybe an Issa Rae?Ade: Stop it. I have a girl crush on her. I have a crush crush on her, but I also have a girl crush on her.Zach: I have an artistic cross on Issa Rae for sure. I was gonna say Issa DuVernay, which would be an amazing combination if both of those, like, fused into one person. My gosh.Ade: Oh, my God. Think of awkward black girl but [shot by?]--[Sound Man throws in a swerve sound effect]Zach: What?Ade: [laughs] Okay, now we're going down different tangents. Okay, anyway. Today we have a listener letter, so as a reminder to everybody at home, we encourage conversation, and so we're looking forward to reading any letters, comments, questions from everyone. So let's get into it. So today we have this letter. We're gonna call this listener Nicole, and let's read Nicole's thoughts. Okay, so it says, "Hi, guys." Hi. "I love your podcast and your insightful advice. This is a career question." All right, let's go. "I usually don't ask anyone I don't personally know about advice, but when I told my circle of friends about this particular situation they were stumped. They didn't know what to say, so here we go. I've been at my job for close to three years, and I've adapted to the many changes that came within my department. A year in, I got switched to a different sector of my department, which meant that I was part of a team of two - the manager and I. My manager has been working with this company for close to ten years and is jaded by all of the politics that comes with working at a large company and in our department. She's much older than me and has been working in this particular industry for decades. My manager and I obviously make for a small department since it's just the two of us, but we're overloaded with work and last-minute projects, which sucks, but it's part of the inner workings of the culture. Anyway, very recently my manager was having a meeting with the director during which the convo switched to me. I was not attending the meeting, but my name came up. The director then asked my manager, "How are you expanding her role?" It seemed as though it was a slew of questions about my potential and what my manager was doing for me in order to make that happen. This didn't seem to go over too well. When I came back from lunch, my manager was venting to me about this meeting. She basically told the director that if she, being my manager, is unclear of her own role and didn't see how she could advance in the company, how could she advance me? And this is just a paraphrasing of the events. And so while she was venting I was simply nodding my head because what else could I say to someone who feels stuck in their job and is managing me? For someone who is much older, I thought she was gonna be a good example, but I've come to realize she isn't. Lately I've been looking for new jobs that pay better because even though my department seems to make millions for the higher-ups, they're stingy when it comes to raises. I've only received one raise, which equated to pennies in my paycheck." Pennies? Oh, Lord. Okay, all right. Anyway. "Should I hit the pavement looking for a new job that pays more or should I try to stick it out and work with my jaded manager? Thanks again, and I hope to get some encouraging advice. Nicole." My goodness. Okay, Nicole. There's so much happening here. I don't--I hate to sound like a typical situation, but this really did rock Zach and I when we gave this a first read-through. And so, Zach, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna go ahead and give my thoughts on it. Or did you want to go first?Zach: The floor is yours.Ade: Okay. So as I see it, there are, like, several different layers of suck here. I'm sorry that--first of all, I'm sorry that you're going through this. It's not a fun or funny situation when you feel as though your career is in the hands of someone who doesn't care about you, but like I said, there are several different layers, and I think it would be best to separate all of those things. So on the one hand, you have a situation where--and at the beginning of Living Corporate, we actually had--I believe it's our very first episode--where we were talking about separating your sponsors for your mentors, knowing the two and leveraging the two. Currently I believe what you need is a sponsor, not a mentor. Your current mentor isn't doing her job. And then the other issue is the matter of your money and getting a new job. So I'm just gonna address them one after the other. So I believe you need to go on the hunt for a sponsor, whether that is within your company, somebody who has a role that you eventually see yourself taking. So obviously this requires first figuring out what you want your trajectory to be at this current moment. That doesn't mean that it can't change, but I believe that everybody needs a five-year plan for themselves. And so in five years, where do you see yourself? In ten years, where do you see yourself? And find people who have optimized their career and go talk to them, whether it's within your company or without. Go on coffee dates. Hit people up on LinkedIn. And I promise you that's not a weird thing. I just came to realize that myself. Like, I'll hit up people on LinkedIn and just kind of ask them to go for coffee or, you know, get their thoughts on certain things. So that's one. The other is that, you know, I understand that you might be feeling hurt, but what your manager is going through is about her and not you, and so although it feels as though she's kind of set herself up as a barrier instead of helping you in your career, I wouldn't take that too personally. Don't let that reflect in your work. If anything, allow that to spur more conversations with, again, those sponsors that you're looking for because they're the ones--within your company, they're the ones who will be putting you on new projects, who will be putting you in places, in rooms, in situations where they feel you have the potential to progress. And outside of your company, those sponsors are the ones who will slide you those job links like, "Hey, I saw this come up. I think you'd be a perfect fit in this situation. What do you think? Go ahead and apply," which brings me to my next point. Any raise that's pennies per paycheck--Zach: Yeah. If that's literal then yeah, that's a pause-worthy statement.Ade: Yeah, that's not it. That's not the lifestyle that I'm hoping and praying for for all my people. I was actually just having this conversation with a group of my friends that closed mouths don't get fed, and it's very typical, particularly of people of color, particularly of women of color, to feel as though we should be grateful for, you know, the pennies as opposed to asking for the thousands, and I don't know if that's gonna, for you, look like--and this is all gonna be personal to you, whether you feel as though you need to be in this company and so you need to figure out how to have the conversation about raises or if you need to step outside and start looking for new jobs. And to that I would say optimize your LinkedIn, get your resume together. If you need to find a professional to look at your resume for you or if, again, those sponsors that you're looking for can take a look at your resume and help you in that regard. But I would definitely say you should start networking. Go to industry events. So whatever your industry is, Meetup is a really good place to find organizations or groups where you can network and meet people and kind of--if you have business cards--give your business cards out, ask people out to coffee at those events. People there are open and willing to mentor you, but you just have to ask. And so those would be my two biggest recommendations for you, and definitely, definitely, definitely keep your head up because this is something that I can relate to personally, and I'm sure Zach has, in some form or fashion, been in a position where he's had to advocate for himself, but you are always your own best advocate, and so this is just a matter of fine-tuning the language and finding the people who are willing to listen to you. Zach, what you got?Zach: Yeah. I mean, one I absolutely agree with your point, right? With all the points that you've made. Ultimately, just to keep it a little bit more succinct, I think it comes down to two things. First of all, you are your best advocate, and then two it's your own career. So it's really one point, right? So you have a couple things here, right? So you have challenges internally where you have your manager who's a bit frustrated and jaded to the language that you're used to, and you now have concerns if they're going to be able to advocate for you. Well, like to what we've been saying, rejecting the premise that anyone else is responsible for advocating for you and that you own your career, it starts with you saying, "Okay, what is it that I want to achieve here?" And then just talking to people, knocking on doors inside your company and being like, "Look, this is what I want to do. This is how I want to do it. Can you help me?" And be comfortable with the people who say no. And they may say no by just flat out saying no. They may say no by just not following up. They may say no by some long-winded answer, but just be comfortable with the people saying no 'cause eventually you'll find someone saying yes. Now, if you can't find the yes internally then it is time to leave, and you already were talking about the fact that you're looking for--you're exploring another opportunity. So your salary--like, your salary is a personal problem. So what do I mean by that? Your salary is a personal problem, meaning you having an issue with your salary, that's an issue between you and you. So you need to figure out a way how you're gonna answer that question. So are you going to get put together a case internally and say, "Hey, look. This is the number I'm looking for because I haven't had a raise in this many years," or "I've only had this one raise," or whatever the case is, or are you going to find another job, right? So plenty of studies show that when it comes to job hunting, you know, you're gonna get a bigger bump transitioning away from a company than you are staying inside. And I'll--there might be people who argue or disagree with me on that. If you do, please send in a letter, send in your comments. And there's more to a job than just your salary, but my point is you have to figure out a way to address that for yourself, right? And, like, I'm not attacking you. I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've definitely been there, where I've got caught up in the illusion of waiting for people to advocate for me, but I realized that people only advocate for you as much as it helps themselves. And so your manager who has her frustrations and things of that nature, that's perfectly human, and she shouldn't be shamed for that. At the same time, that's not your problem. Your problem is how are you gonna make sure that you take care of yourself? So Nicole, like, we're really excited about you sending us another letter, like, letting us know what's going on. We definitely are praying for the best. There's definitely a lot going on for sure, but yeah, advocate for yourself. And we actually have an article dropping on Living Corporate soon about strategic self-advocacy, so keep an eye out for that. If you have any additional questions, just reach back out and we'll make sure to chop it up. Offline.Ade: And definitely thank you for writing us and trusting us with this. So that about wraps it up for our listener letter portion of the segment. As a reminder, we do encourage conversation, so please reach out if you have any questions, comments, or concerns for us.[segment break]Ade: All right, y'all. It is another episode of Favorite Things. So I have a confession actually, guys. Please, please, please keep this on the downlow, as I say this on a podcast. I had my first bite of mac and cheese recently. I know. I know.Zach: Your first bite? Like, you've just now--you've just now tried--Ade: I just--like, I literally just tried mac and cheese, and it was--and I feel like the only real reason that I liked it was because it was a seafood mac and cheese because I've always been really, really averse to cheese, but I've only recently started being okay with it. Like, it doesn't automatically make me nauseous. And so, like, I had my--my friend made--there was a kickback, and my friend made seafood mac and cheese, and I was like, "Seafood? I guess I can give it a shot." I don't know what that voice was. [laughs] But I gave it a shot and I ate it, and it was good. Like, it was really, really good, and I was like, "Hold on, wait a minute. Are you telling me that I've been missing out on deliciousness this whole time?" I was like, "No, this is probably a one-off. It's because of the seafood." And then I went to another event with friends, and my friend made just regular old mac and cheese, and I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna give it another shot," and it was astounding.Zach: [laughs] It was astounding?Ade: Astounding. Astounding. Are you kidding me? And so now I am mad that I have wasted all of these years of my life not eating cheese, specifically not eating mac and cheese, especially since I apparently make good mac and cheese, but I've never eaten it because I've always been afraid of what it does to my life afterwards--of what cheese does to my life. And so now I'm just trying to spend all this time, like, making up for lost time.Zach: With cheese.Ade: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Zach: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Okay. First of all, that's very funny. Ade: [laughs]Zach: Because mac and cheese is--first of all, it's just such a common dish from my perspective, right? But at the same time I'm excited for you, and I actually think what we should do is maybe add a fun segment from time to time just called Ade's Cheese, right? Like, where you try, like, a new cheese, right? So, like, maybe next time you try Gouda, and then another time you try feta. Ade: Actually--it's so funny you say that because I bought a smoked Gouda from the Amish [inaudible] market in my apartment, and it's in my fridge right now, okay?Zach: Okay. So okay, great. So look, let's take a note 'cause the next time--the next time we're together we'll bring up your review on Gouda. Ade: Look, listen. I actually already took a slice of it with some pepper jelly, and I want to fight every single one of my friends who did not inform me that cheese was this good.Zach: Right. Now, look, cheese is--cheese is good. Like, it's a seller for a reason.Ade: I want y'all to know that there's no way you love me and left me out of the secret for this long.Zach: Nah, see--actually, I challenge that, right? I challenge that because they could've been holding you back from cheese purely for the health reasons, right? Like, there's no--Ade: Nah, forget all that, because, like, they watch me eat three slices of cake and they actually encourage me. Like, "Here, have my slice of cake." Zach: Okay. Well, then I understand your frustration.Ade: See? Mm-hmm. They're not loyal. Not a single one of 'em. [laughs] My only other thing this week, it's a book called Perfect Peace by Daniel Black. So it's a book about what happens--there are several different themes. Part of it is gender. Part of it is, like, family betrayal. And so, like, the plot is it's this family in the rural south. Mama has six boys already, and she's pregnant with her seventh, and she, the whole time, is thinking, "Oh, this is gonna be my girl." She has a lot of issues surrounding her relationship with her mother, and so she wants to really, like, nurture a girl, a daughter. Turns out that she has a son, and so what she decides to do is raise her son as a daughter, and so she names this boy Perfect. Their family's called Peace. And so Perfect is raised, up until he's 8, as a girl. It's just this really, really gripping story about, like, love and family and what it means to--like, what gender means and what family means and what truth means and all of these other things, and you find yourself just, like, shocked every other page. But yeah, that's my favorite thing, and that was a whole lot, but I hope y'all take a look. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, that's cool. We've got to make sure that we add Perfect Peace to our reading list.Ade: Oh, yeah.Zach: That's right. Make sure you check out our reading list. It's great. So sticking with my record of aggressive book titles, my favorite thing right now has to be this book I'm rereading called This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get You Killed by Charles Cobb. It explores the history of nonviolence during the civil rights era and its function. It also breaks down the history and culture of gun ownership for black people in America. It's a really interesting read. Academic while not being too heavy. It's just a really approachable book, and it's also on our reading list, so make sure you check that out.Ade: And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. And that does it for this show. My name's Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

Welcome to episode 146 of the Therapy Chat Podcast with host Laura Reagan, LCSW-C. This week Laura re-visits the issue of when your partner doesn't understand trauma. *The names and characters in this episode represent a composite of people I have know personally and professionally. No real person is represented in this episode, which is intended for educational purposes.* When Your Partner Doesn't Understand Your Trauma Michael can't understand it. He just doesn't get what is going on with his wife of over 25 years, Amy. Michael is concerned about her and wondering when she is going to "get over" the childhood physical and sexual abuse she went through years ago.  He really just wants her to be okay. And honestly, he's sick of her trauma symptoms affecting her, him and their children. He's not sure how much longer he can take it.  Why can't she just get over it? To be fair, Michael doesn't realize that Amy's mood and behavior are related to her childhood trauma. He just knows that despite years of therapy with various therapists, she sometimes becomes deeply depressed and can't seem to get off the couch for days. Other times the smallest thing will seem to trigger her becoming highly anxious, which can turn into controlling behavior towards himself and the kids. She will sometimes go shopping, overspending with abandon even though they have agreed to stop running up credit card debt - then she hides it from him and acts like she is afraid he will hurt her when he receives the credit card bill. Although he does get really frustrated when this happens, it bothers him that she feels afraid of him at times, because he feels he would never harm her, and he never has gotten physical with her in more than 25 years. He also suspects she may be binging and purging, but they don't talk about it. He's afraid to bring it up and he suspects she would deny it if he asked.. Although she takes medication, her mood swings are still pretty unpredictable and he's never really sure whether he is going to come home from work and find the smiling, got-it-together wife he married; or the disorganized, scattered, overwhelmed and controlling woman she sometimes becomes; or the sad, crying woman he barely recognizes who just wants to sleep as much as possible. He doesn't know how to help her. "She's Changed." All Michael knows is that Amy has changed.  He knew when they got married that she had a "difficult" childhood. He also saw how resilient Amy was then. Despite being abused throughout her childhood she had finished college and started a great career before they married. Although she spoke openly about having experienced that abuse, it didn't seem to have a negative impact on her then. Other than acknowledging that it happened, she didn't really talk about it. And he didn't really want to talk about it - then or now - because just the thought of what she went through, particularly the sexual abuse, horrifies him.  He's not sure if the physical abuse was really all that bad, or why it affects her so much. He wonders if she is really trying in therapy, or whether she somehow is doing all this just for attention. Michael isn't sure how to deal with the emotions that come up for him when Amy is not okay. It reminds him of how he felt responsible for taking care of his mother after his dad died when he was 10. He would often come home from school and his mom would be sitting in the dark on the sofa in her bathrobe. He found himself needing to be adult-like to take care of her, and he was kind of on his own to take care of himself and his younger brother too. He was so relieved to get away from that unhappy childhood, to go to college and start his career, but sometimes he wonders if he married someone he will always have to take care of too. The burden of handling Amy's emotional needs feels very heavy and familiar to Michael. He feels sad, hopeless and discouraged.  Image credit: Canva She feels disconnected. Amy, too, was overjoyed to leave her abusive family behind to marry Michael. She thought things would be so much better once she got away from her controlling, abusive father and her passive mother who was mostly focused on pretending everything was perfect. And things were so much better! She loved her career, she and Michael got along great, and she was very happy to raise her three beautiful children. However, when her third child, little Megan, turned 5 years old Amy started having flashbacks to the abuse that her father inflicted on her as a little girl. A part of her had always felt that she was somehow responsible for the sexual abuse and deserving of the beatings. But seeing her sweet, innocent little Megan, a bright, inquisitive kindergartner, she pictured herself as a little girl and wondered whether it was really true that an innocent child could ever be deserving of being harmed the way her father had harmed her. These thoughts were so sad and overwhelming she tried to push them away. Sometimes she was successful, but other times, particularly in the Spring, she was overwhelmed with fear and worry that something bad would happen to Megan or her two sons. She is bothered by nightmares, trouble sleeping and physical symptoms like Irritable Bowel Syndrome and a feeling that someone is watching her which makes her skin crawl. Sometimes she suddenly vomits, just out of the blue, and she never knows when a panic attack is coming. Much of the time she feels like she is going through the motions of life. She feels disconnected from her neighbors and the other moms in her community. She describes herself as "on the outside looking in" to her life. She doesn't work outside the home now, and she's not sure if she ever will again. Most of the time she feels like she is barely holding it together. She wishes Michael were more empathetic and supportive of what she's going through but he doesn't seem to understand why she can't just "put the past behind her." She feels alone and disconnected from him, and wonders what happened to the happy newlyweds they once were. She is sad and worried about the way she feels, but she doesn't know what to do about it. The Truth Is, They Are Both Struggling This dynamic is all too common and I hear stories from both sides of the relationship described above in my office every day. Many of my clients are women like Amy who feel deeply ashamed that they are still affected by the abuse from their childhood years. And others are men like Michael who wonder if they can handle the emotional burden of their partner's PTSD. Regardless of gender, both Amy and Michael could be any one of us. They both feel alone and don't know how to reach the other partner. Whether you can relate to Amy's feelings or Michael's, it's helpful to understand a few things.  Three Things to Remember: You are not alone. Whether you are the person who experienced childhood trauma or the person who loves them, what you are feeling is common. Many people are affected by childhood trauma. It is so much more common than most of us realize. Click here to learn more about the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study (ACES) and the prevalence of childhood trauma.   Trauma survivors aren't trying to be difficult.They are actually just trying to feel normal. In the scenario I described above, both Amy and Michael are affected by childhood trauma, though neither of them understands the effects in depth. Amy could be described as the "identified patient" - she's the one who is seen as having a problem and needing help. And she does need help. She is suffering so much. Amy's trauma is that she was physically and sexually abused by an adult (her father) whom she trusted to take care of her and keep her safe. Her mother was unable to protect her and pretended nothing was wrong. So both of her primary caregivers, whom she depended on for safety and protection, let her down. She is affected by a loss of attachment as well as the effects of the abuse. But Amy's not the only one in this example who needs help. Michael, too, experienced childhood trauma. His father died when he was only ten, and in her grief his mother was unable to attend to Michael's emotional needs. Instead, in order to be safe, Michael had to take care of his mom's emotional needs, and his own needs were ignored. He also had a younger brother to look out for. So Michael experienced a loss of attachment when neither of his parents was available to take care of his emotional needs, as well as the trauma of his dad's sudden death.  It's no wonder that Amy and Michael were drawn to each other, because they both had unresolved pain they were trying to escape when they met. However, Michael's role as a caregiver in his family may have helped him feel comfortable marrying someone who he perceived as having gone through something terrible (without realizing how he himself was affected by his own trauma). Both Amy and Michael were young when they met, and they were both doing the best they could. They both wanted to be okay, and they were trying to be okay together. For a while they were, but the effects of trauma always pop up just when you least expect them. Neither Amy nor Michael is able to be a support for the other, because they are both affected by their own childhood trauma. They can both benefit from counseling with a skilled trauma therapist. Trauma therapy can help. The reason Amy has been in and out of therapy for 10 years without experiencing relief from her trauma symptoms is that she hasn't had the right kind of therapy. 9 times out of 10, my clients with extensive trauma histories will tell me that their previous therapists never explained trauma to them or told them that their symptoms could be related to trauma. Why? The therapists probably didn't know. Trauma is still a newer field of study, although its effects have been documented for years.  Understanding that your symptoms are caused by trauma helps take an overwhelming set of symptoms that are seemingly unrelated and offers hope and clarity. You begin to recognize that you developed these coping methods (like dissociation, comfort eating, compulsive shopping, depression, anxiety) because of the effects of trauma, and not because there is something wrong with you.  Can You Relate? You may be wondering if you are an Amy or a Michael. I can't answer that for you, but here are some symptoms which may indicate that you are affected by childhood trauma.  If you have had some kind of disturbing experience in childhood that has always bothered you, for example: Loss of a primary caregiver Any unwanted sexual experience Any sexual experience you were too young to understand Witnessing violence, whether it happened to you, your caregiver or another family member Feeling that no one understood you, no one cared about you, or that you were abandoned, unwanted, or unloved Being bullied Receiving physical punishment, including spanking, beating, whipping, or being physically abused or harmed by an adult when you were a child Having a parent or primary caregiver who abused alcohol or drugs These are just a few examples of situations that could be traumatic in childhood. Read this article for more, and consider taking the ACES quiz as well.  So if you have some kind of childhood experience you think might have been traumatic AND you have some of these symptoms: Trouble falling asleep or staying asleep, nightmares, sleep paralysis Feeling numb, detached, zoning out, trouble concentrating, easily distracted, losing time Memory issues - feeling forgetful, being disorganized Feeling a nagging sense that there is just something wrong with you, something that makes you different from everyone else Feeling like you are on the outside looking in Trouble feeling close with other people, trust issues, feeling suspicious of other people's motives, thoughts like "no one can be trusted" and a feeling that it's you against the world Panic attacks, anxiety, need to maintain control at all times, rigidity, need for order Feeling mistrustful of your partner, feeling judgmental and critical of others and yourself Body image issues, physical symptoms like chronic pain, stomach issues, migraines,  Sexual problems - lack of interest in sex, shame related to sex Constantly on high alert, watchful, vigilant, can't relax - you hate it when someone comes up behind you and touches your shoulder or stands too close to you You might be affected by childhood trauma. No article can substitute for talking with a qualified therapist. If you are wondering if you are affected by childhood trauma, talk to a therapist. You can usually speak to them by phone before scheduling an appointment to make sure they feel qualified to help with the issue that affects you.  Here are some resources for finding a qualified trauma therapist: National Child Traumatic Stress Network ISSTD Sensorimotor Psychotherapy Institute EMDRIA Sidran Institute Somatic Experiencing Institute RAINN And here are some suggestions for further reading and learning: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk In the Realm Of Hungry Ghosts by Gabor Maté ACES Primer (video) Finding a therapist who understands the effects of trauma on child development and has specialized training in trauma recovery can make a huge difference. Whether you are directly affected by childhood trauma or it is a problem for someone you love, therapy can help. You don't have to keep suffering.   The first step is understanding that your trauma is real, that it matters, and that you can feel better. Then the hard part comes - trusting a therapist to help you. I know there are many caring and skilled trauma therapists out there who want to help. I am one of them. If you're in the Baltimore area of Maryland, I would love to talk about how we can work together to help you feel better. Give me a call at 443-510-1048 or e-mail me at laura@laurareaganlcswc.com.  You can also contact me directly through my website at this link. Or visit my website to learn about how I work with trauma.  Please consider supporting Therapy Chat by becoming a member on Patreon! Just $1 a month would make a huge impact to keep Therapy Chat going strong! To learn more: https://patreon.com/TherapyChat - members get special perks and swag too! Register now for the next Daring Way™ and Relational Equine Assisted Learning retreat: https://laurareaganlcswc.com/retreat Leave me a message via Speakpipe by going to https://therapychatpodcast.com and clicking on the green Speakpipe button. Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat! Please be sure to go to iTunes and leave a rating and review, subscribe and download episodes. You can also download the Therapy Chat app on iTunes by clicking here.

CIO for Enterprise Applications at Nationwide Insurance Michael Carrel covers rolling out agile enterprise-wide at scale, becoming comfortable with failure, and the ins and outs of building a culture of visual management, accountability, and innovation at this financial services giant.   Transcript  Bob Payne: [00:00:21] I'm here with Michael Carrel from Nationwide. So Michael we've worked together years ago. What are you what are you doing now at Nationwide?   Michael Carrel: [00:00:31] Thanks. Yeah I'm the CIO for enterprise applications at Nationwide. So what I have a responsibility for is all plan build and run for technology solutions supporting our staff functions within Nationwide's marketing, legal, human resources, investments, finance and actually I.T. itself.   Bob Payne: [00:00:48] Wow, so that's that's great. So that that is has expanded since we had worked together.   Michael Carrel: [00:00:53] Lots of stuff.   Bob Payne: [00:00:55] Yeah absolutely. So what trends are you seeing in the Insurance sector right now. What are the drivers that that are driving innovation, driving your use of agile, driving the business, you know.   Michael Carrel: [00:01:11] Yeah. So a couple of things on the short term basis a lot of the trends that we're dealing with aren't different at Nationwide compared to other insurers, specifically you know on our property and casualty side we have lost trends and a rise in the industry due to distracted driving. We have, you know, there's lot of technology in cars these days and so when cars are in accidents our last costs go up as those accidents you know cost more to repair vehicles within our financial services industry. We have a lot of the Department of Labor is creating lots of changes within the financial services industry, especially the products that we sell: new life products. We have annuities and retirement plans.   Michael Carrell: [00:01:53] So the deal well into the regulatory environment is changing a lot. And in some cases you can look at that as an obstacle or as an opportunity. And so related to innovation there's certainly an opportunity there, as with the other things that I mentioned in terms of ways to help prevent distracted driving in particular, technology that we could use to help make our make it safe for our customers. Longer term trends are there as well. Especially in terms of in the in the auto insurance industry with autonomous vehicles, there's a lot there will be a lot of change in revenue within our industry over time as you look at driverless cars are driving increased you know, lower claims frequency which is going to drive down revenue within the industry. So, where are we going to look at revenue sources of the future? You know so innovation plays a huge role in not only how do we create competitive advantage out of the short term challenges we have but longer term than Nationwide how do we continue to fulfill additional revenue sources for Nationwide given the you know the contraction of some of our expectations that industry especially the auto industry going forward.   Bob Payne: [00:03:03] Yes so certainly those are a lot of the some challenges but also opportunities that are presenting themselves. How do you strike that balance between you know this trend is really challenging our bottom line or this presents a new opportunity because there's only so much time you have to sell new products.   Michael Carrel: [00:03:28] That's a great question. And you know what we focus on are really our customer journeys and where we want to differentiate ourselves.   [00:03:34] And that really helps us focus on the innovations that are that are important to Nationwide and specifically in areas such as such as strategic partnerships and ventures. Those are types of things that we're looking at to realize that innovation that we have with the Nationwide doesn't have to only just come from you with them. How can we partner with others inside and outside of Nationwide to be able to drive innovation learn from others with strategic partnerships and ventures opportunities. A lot of companies are. Nationwide is also one of them. In fact recently announced 100 billion dollar or 100 million dollar investment in that area. So we're taking it very seriously and to make sure that we deliver a great experience for our customers. And so we prioritize our investments based upon customer experiences that we want to differentiate ourselves within Nationwide and what we can bring to bear for our customers you go through that you know a lot of it too is that the technology capabilities that we have internally and growing from what we have today and then adding and the new capabilities that we're developing to make sure that we can deliver on those those experiences. And we're looking at it heavily all customer research and focus right. Because a lot of times the customer speaks in terms of the value of innovation. So there's a lot of great ideas and so you have to understand though which of those resonate most with our customers. Which of those are kind of on point with our brand and our value proposition to our customers. So making sure that we know what our customers value for for the cost is something that we're always continually looking at.   Bob Payne: [00:05:13] Yeah I mean what are the challenges with an organization that is as diverse as yours. How do you get those different lines of business to understand that the customer only knows one Nationwide sort of the apple model right.   Michael Carrel: [00:05:27] Yeah.   Bob Payne: [00:05:28] It's not just one you know not just this product that they're potentially buying. There are a lot of things   Michael Carrel: [00:05:35] Especially in our industry you're buying experience so it's not just you know we're not creating microwaves we're not creating cars right now we're creating promises to help our customers get back on their feet in difficult times.   Bob Payne: [00:05:46] Yeah and customer service is an important factor. How does how do lean and agile methods play into delivery of those customer experiences for you guys?   Michael Carrel: [00:05:57] Great question. You know a lot of times it's really important that you deliver value to our customers quickly and so agile for us is is key for us. You know DevOps has a lot of a lot of consomme practices around agile that we're adopting but it really is moving with speed and agility in our development lifecycle. But also in our planning as well you know there is a test to learn concepts that we work with a Nationwide to make sure that we explore what that concept could look like, test it with customers we have great user experience team that helps us with research with our customers. We test those concepts in a very iterative fashion and then actually have an agile at scale across nation with combined with dev ops to make sure that we can deliver those capabilities quickly to our customers.   [00:06:47] So it's certainly agile it even an issue I started more as more of an I.T. effort that focused on developing software in a better way. And we have rolled out agile enterprise wide at scale putting that earlier in the pipeline of delivery of capability and working with business partners is an area that we're still growing into a habit a lot in our direct to consumer experiences specially in our and the web in mobile space and then growing that beyond that is a priority for us and things like DevOps and deploying those things out across Nationwide are helping delivery teams at the same time agile planning practices is something that we're we're adopting to be able to kind of do more tests and experimentation and drive value to the consumer more quickly.   Bob Payne: [00:07:37] Yeah I think it's sort of interesting that agile sort of picks up quite often when you know what you're going to build how you used innovation experimentation to sort of drive that funnel to get because ideation is sort of a divergent process right what are all the possible possible things agile works well as a convergent how do we deliver this thing that we've decided to deliver so How are you using experimentation innovation to feed into that delivery funnel?   Michael Carrel: [00:08:12] A great example is this a test and learn concept that we house that we have a team set up that are focused on taking our high value ideas that are based on customer research and data that we've collected on what consumers want and where they may have problems today and then where we defined those customer journeys in points of differentiation as I mentioned earlier with that then a test and learn concept to be able to quickly learn to experiment around ways on delivering on that value proposition for that user experience because it can be delivered in various ways. And so we're just learning through that test and learn concept and then quickly getting that into a build team to get that deployed. Is our model so it's that concept of experimentation with applications even of funding and time and resources around test and learn kind of separate from defined build projects to give you the freedom to not treat to learn experiment without being the confinements of a project with some pre-determined kind of outcome and set of requirements. Because you know the user experiences, customer experiences you learn as you go and you experiment and you test..   Bob Payne: [00:09:21] And fundamentally change the direction you're taking.   Michael Carrel: [00:09:24] Absolutely yeah.   Bob Payne: [00:09:25] Yeah. Yeah. Has it been challenging to sort of inject that level of experimentation in certain areas looking for more of a plan going in than..   Michael Carrel: [00:09:38] I think teams that are typically have we've moved agile wide scale the build processes   Bob Payne: [00:09:46] And have a very mature process   Michael Carrel: [00:09:49] Yeah, And I think the biggest thing is being willing to fail and have ideas fail I think with anything that you're driving innovation you have to be comfortable with with failure and ideas not working and iterating perfecting an idea and so you do sometimes have to get past perspectives around wanting to get it right the first time and get everything perfect before you take a step forward versus intuitively kind of figuring out the kind of what's the best way to deliver on the value that you're looking to create whether that be a product you in the eyes of a consumer or a service experience and really exploring versus using more of a waterfall mindset around requirements and design like getting the perfect design and then implementing it. So getting people comfortable with that learning and and quite frankly some of it. It's how we what we've done to ourselves in terms of how we fund projects so really when you take some of those constraints away and then you eyes open your eyes wide open then and people can see the fact that hey constraints that perhaps drove us towards a certain mindset are now released and it gives you the freedom to work in IT or a fashion to make sure that you can really harness the value with the right the capability to kind of deliver the value that you're looking to deliver.   Bob Payne: [00:11:04] Yeah I think sometimes you have to sort of flip the mindset because insurance is essentially risk management. But the thing that I think a lot of people think when they think about experimentation is it's risky but I actually like to flip that around and say your biggest risk is that you're going all in on a single bet like real risk management is about.   Michael Carrel: [00:11:32] Yeah   Bob Payne: [00:11:33] Iterating ideating validating those ideas with your with your customers is right and you know the people that need to deliver those services.   Michael Carrel: [00:11:43] And at Nationwide are right we talk about being "on your side" and "on your side" as a is a commitment that we made to our customers and it's a lot. And it comes with expectations. So for us you know that you know while you were in the business of managing risk there. There also is a large accountability we have for delivering an on your site experience to our customers.   Michael Carrel: [00:12:05] That is important to us and that gives you get you know to be a little bit more creative with how do you kind of drive that and learn about what does it mean for a customer to be on your side. And when there are a vast amount of products and services and channels where we provide service it is hard and it's difficult requires experimentation. But I think our commitment to our customers is often gives us enough of that energy to kind of overcome the inertia sometimes of the risk element that is kind of the nature of what we do at Nationwide.   Bob Payne: [00:12:42] Yeah. Yeah so that's great because you know you've had a lot of lean agile methods throughout the whole organization. Now it's starting to move into ideation and I know you're also working a lot of dev ops initiatives too. Once you have that idea you can build it iterate on it quickly then how do you how do you get things out to out to those consumers to really close the loop because the million dollar idea is not it has no value if it doesn't actually start to solve customers problems or deliver on that value proposition. How are you guys using DevOps at Nationwide has that been a big initiative.   Michael Carrel: [00:13:28] Yeah it's a huge initiative for us. We're starting a very carefully to make sure that we are getting the model right before we have larger scale adoption. Know we have elements of dev ops across all of Nationwide but what we might consider more of like a gold standard of dev ops kind of fully embracing it. You know it's mindset. It's also automation.   Michael Carrel: [00:13:55] It's even some tooling that we put in place so we have some some model teams that have demonstrated kind of our recommended kind of full integration into dev ops that we have. We've worked through and now we're working on ruling that out across all our teams and many of them are which will have elements of dev ops both the full package which most importantly is the mindset right. It's not it's not just about the tooling. We have lots of tools lots of automation even amongst those tools to make it to make it easier to be able to you know to manage code migrate code build drive builds and do all that through automation. But it really is a mindset a mindset of teams to continue to even evolve our dev ops and perfect it you know with new learnings that come out of foods team so we're right now in the process of rolling that out more broadly across Nationwide through some model teams that have kind of perfected our model.   Bob Payne: [00:14:56] Yeah. And then ultimately how do you the loop with measuring customer behavior those ideas that you had that you narrowed down you built them. Now automated you push the deploy out. But getting that full loop measurement to really really achieve business agility and to your goal of DevOps.   Michael Carrel: [00:15:18] Yeah. And to your point we actually have a lean vision management system that's in place across all of I.T. and Nationwide starting out with local teams all the way up to the A level so I have my visual management system and so tracking key metrics of value there. So how long is it take from a requirement to get to production.   Michael Carrel: [00:15:38] You know how long you know how much of a backlog there are key metrics around velocity and speed that is in our visual management systems that we are you know we track and we are expecting certain lift from as we continue to get even more mature and dev ops as we roll out kind of our model structure across all of our lines and Nationwide development lines. So that's that's something we're very keen on is measuring the Emperor fighting. So where we have it's a learning opportunity to use metrics as you see pockets of matter X that in certain areas where ... in favor ability perhaps even over a norm let's learn from that we are what are they doing so we can continue to kind of learn from each other across the organization. But metrics on speed and agility are working in own management system. So we're also being held accountable for the value that we're looking to create. And quite frankly understanding where we're not meeting those velocity targets those speed targets of a driving value directly out you know getting into production as quickly as we can through through new lean practices and DevOps.   Bob Payne: [00:16:46] Yeah and you know I'm particularly passionate about visual systems so I'm always very very encouraged when I when I came out to visit to see the implementation you guys have. The thing that I think is most interesting and probably most important about the visual management systems that are some examples that I've seen is you have them at all layers.   Bob Payne: [00:17:12] And there are linkages and if something is measured the people that are supposed to change their behavior or maybe not change their behavior but whose work is being driven by those metrics are responsible for the metrics and that that is an area where I think lean organizations and I consider you as one I think are much better than most organizations. Just look at agile as just a delivery model or visual management. That's just for the team. You really have created an umbrella that spans the whole organization.   Michael Carrel: [00:17:57] It's really a mindset that has from all the way from the top down into our local teams and my own visual measurement system as a CIO is visible so people can come in and see my accountability section on my board. Our planning initiatives are our key project to build build metrics and that all of our metrics that through sequenced review cross all the dimensions of our key performance indicators are all in plain sight. People can associates can see those and see what we're talking about as a CEO candidate. So it's not. There's also that transparency their risk associates it's not just what they're they're not just working with the leaders or management system but my team is as well conducting other stand ups. Yeah how often do you do your standup. So we do our standups weekly with within our team and then we do an extra section even once a month on some deep diving into metrics that whose update frequency or more monthly versus versus weekly type checks that we do but we go through quick run checks our build projects our planning initiatives every week and then our accountability sections always looking at Voice of Customer problems sections. You know there are problems that we need to be doing a 3s on across our organization.   Michael Carrel: [00:19:13] And then also kind of keeping track of our releases coming up and the capability maturity within our teams as well.   Bob Payne: [00:19:20] Great. Yeah that's exciting. I know that you quite often do. You're doing a more formal A3 Lean continuous improvement process. Has that really are you getting a lot of things bubbling up from teams in the way that say a Toyota would have a continuous improvement bubbling up from the folks doing the work or is it that innovation.   Michael Carrel: [00:19:51] Theories are happening at all levels. No we don't. I wouldn't say I have a lot of escalated to me where they are blockers. You know we try to empower local seems to be able to drive improvement in their areas but items do that are more you know a systemic type things they do get bubbled up actually through the official management system so through blockers that we have and I actually do Gemba walks of the lean management systems of my direct reports and they do it levels down as well and and sometimes actually to be quite frank I will have a team that will want me to attend one of their gambles to be able to learn about a block or something where they might need my help as a CIO even if it's one of our delivery lines. I've done that on occasion. One of them team going through some agile transformation and really wanted me to kind of see some something that they were working on to be able to help drive that forward. So also a ton of gemba of a line to be able to also have firsthand experience with what they're dealing with perhaps an innovation that they need some support for.   Michael Carrel: [00:20:57] Or it could be a process change or a blocker that they need my help with.   Bob Payne: [00:21:02] And that establishes a lot of trust throughout the organization to really have that level of transparency. What's what do you see coming down the road that's exciting for you for the next five years? I know that's an awfully long ways to look out.   Michael Carrel: [00:21:17] I think with a lot of organizations you know we're focusing on legacy platform modernization so you know Nationwide we'll be celebrating 100 years as a as a company coming up here soon and so we are we have several transformation initiatives going on to really modernize some of our core platforms across our business so there are nimble going into into the future. And so that's a key focus for us. Clearly data analytics expressed in our business. We have done a lot of work there continue to do more extending that into even greater cognitive solutions with AI. So we're definite have a definite focus there is so much opportunity in that space and building that into the fabric of our solutions our mindsets is going to be important as we move forward as well as well as us continue to digitize organization. Their key priority for us. And then you with with all the innovation that we talked about before you know I think I'm excited about you know the businesses that Nationwide will will be in even 10 years from now.   [00:22:25] You know we've been a company who's innovated especially in areas of financial services kind of being a traditional PNC Insure and innovation that got us kind of really defining you know the annuity market a leader you know a company wide or country wide leaders and Pat and in 457 retirement plans we have a company who is a fabric of innovation has spurred new products new businesses for Nationwide. I'm very excited about new products and new businesses that we're not in today that we will be in you know 10 years from now as we continue to kind of focus on our core purpose of protecting what matters most to to our consumers and also helping people prepare for and live in retirement so excited about what that future is going to hold and things like our enterprise hackathons, local hackathons we do within our organization and then Chief Innovation Officer within Nationwide and all the partnerships that will kind of continue to grow to kind of continue to fuel the innovative spirit at Nationwide is exciting. I'm happy to be a part of it and I think you know I think we're really kind of getting the business in general and are going through this huge cycle I think many businesses are or the next 10 years of being another kind of transfer kind of transformation in terms of the technologies today AI cognitive type solutions and businesses I think are going. All this is going very different Ten years from now I think we're going through this next kind of revolution of with that technology is enabling. So I'm excited to figure out new ways of leveraging your technology new processes concepts to be able to drive that value for our customers.   Bob Payne: [00:24:02] Excellent I hope I'm as vital at 100 as Nationwide is. And I thank you so much for doing the talk.   Michael Carrell: [00:24:08] Thank you.  

Today's Topic Let's Build a gnomish conveyance So Michael and I have finally made it to our vehicle build. Join us as we brainstorm out what type of vehicle, and what problem it is solving for the culture. Join us in this episode as we finally build a gnome vehicle.  Please Subscribe, Rate and Review us on iTunes For complete Fantasy Worldbuilding, show notes go to Gardul.com Podcast Show Flow The gnomes need a ride... What problem does it solve What type of vehicle What is it made out of? What are the first three things that you notice? And is one dominate? The Worldbuilding Task for the Day Build another vehicle The Real World task for the day Let's go check out the Seize the GM Podcast! Michael's Resources Use Gardul.com/Amazon when shopping online to help support the show Episode 225 Let's Gnome up Gardul! Episode 226 Let's Build a Gnome Race Episode 227 Let's Build a Gnomish Culture Links ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Visit Show notes )))))))))))))))))))))))))   http://www.gardul.com/blog/episode-227-lets-build-a-fantasy-vehicle/   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Mentions links ))))))))))))))))))))))))) Episode 225 Let's Gnome up Gardul! http://www.gardul.com/blog/episode-225-lets-gnome-up-gardul/ Episode 226 Let's Build a Gnome Race http://www.gardul.com/blog/episode-226-lets-build-a-gnome-race/ Episode 227 Let's Build a Gnomish Culture http://www.gardul.com/blog/episode-227-lets-build-a-gnomish-culture/  ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Rate and Review us in iTunes ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/worldbuilders-anvil/id956705643?mt=2   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Like our Facebook Page ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://www.facebook.com/GardulStories/   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Join our Facebook Group ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://www.facebook.com/groups/undercroft/   ((((((((((((((((((((((( Support us by using our Amazon Affiliate Link ))))))))))))))))))))) http://gardul.com/Amazon   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Jeff on Twitter  ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://twitter.com/JefferyWIngram

Michael Neeley is a podcaster and an entrepreneur. He's a business coach and he empowers other entrepreneurs to live the lives they've always dreamed of. He's the host of the podcast, 'Consciously Speaking', and also his new podcast, 'Buy This, Not That'. Michael used to be a knight in shining armor; he was an actor who spent a good portion of his career on horseback before starring in a couple of soap operas and some independent films. Michael's son, Tristan, was born back in 2002, and at that time Michael decided he wanted to leave the smog of Los Angeles and settle in an area with clean air and clear skies. So Michael made a transition and has moved to a role where he enlightens others as a mindfulness business coach. Contact Info Website: www.MichaelNeeley.com Podcast: Consciously Speaking Podcast: Buy This, Not That Event: Transformational Business Event - Your Authority Blueprint Live(Listen to the interview for a $100 Off Coupon Code) Conversation With Michael Bruce: How do you get grounded in your life, Michael? Michael: For me, meditation plays a big part in it and it's not about like sitting down on a cushion for 45 minutes at a time. It's more like, uh, you know, while I'm going for a walk, if I'm walking the dogs, I can use that as a meditation. It's a matter of fact. It was so cool. I walked them yesterday, I took them over to this little park area that we have here near my home and I unleashed them and let them run and I laid down on the grass and stared up at the sky and meditated for about five minutes. It was total bliss and just little things like that where you can relax the mind and let go of all of these crazy monkey mind thoughts that are running through our heads about our business constantly. If you're a solopreneur or even about life in general, you can get caught up in all this stuff instead of just, OK, here I am. I'm just a human being. Bruce: Your son Tristan was born in 2002. Has He inspired you to be mindful? Has He taught you anything about being grounded and being centered? Michael: Well, Tristan is my constant teacher every day and you know, he's my why. He's the why of what I'm up to in the world and that's the part that I've got to bring mindfulness back to. If I get too caught up in doing the work and I don't spend the time with him; he's the reason that I'm doing the work. And so if I don't take the breaks to spend the time with him, then it kind of defeats the purpose. And so yeah, he's a constant teacher to me. Bruce: How will mindfulness play a role in your upcoming event that you're doing? Michael: A lot of people look at business and they don't see the correlation of how mindfulness plays into that and I know maybe in larger corporations it's less relevant in the bigger picture. Certainly on the smaller scale and when we're talking about the people that I'm attracting for my event, which are visionary Solopreneurs, as I call them, people who are in business for themselves, the mindfulness piece is often the difference between success and failure. What I mean by that is that we get in our own way. We get caught up in either the minutia of the work or we get caught up doing the wrong things because we're looking for a sense of, you know, checking off the list, tick boxes instead of really being mindful about, OK, wait a minute, let me tune in here. What do I really want? What is going to be the best for my business and how can I move forward in a way that's conscious and fully present? Bruce: Tell us about some of the speakers that are going to be at your event. I know it's called, Your Authority Blueprint Live. Michael: It's going to be a rockin' event and we're going to have Jay Fiset there, another fellow Canadian. Jay does work with a Mastermind To Millions. I didn't realize how conscious Jay was and how mindful he was until recently when I had him on my show. He's just really a cool guy. So Jay's going to be there. We've got Brady Patterson from Success Road Academy, also a Canadian company. Brady is going to be there. Uh, we're going to have Tiamo De Vettori, who is a singer, songwriter. He's going to be sharing some inspirational music with us. [Tiamo was recently named L.A. Music Award's "Singer/Songwriter of the Year" & San Diego's "Best Songwriter] Tiffany Largie is going to be there. I mean we're going to have a wonderful lineup of some great talented motivational speakers to help people break through. Melanie Benson, another person who's really great with mindset is going to be there sharing some of her wisdom and expertise to really help us move beyond these blocks that stop us. And then of course, where the authority blueprint comes in is we're going to share the business side of it is how can you create a name for yourself in the industry that's really gonna catapult you onto the scene in a big way. And that's the business promise of it. We're going to show you how to build that blueprint. Bruce: On your podcast, Consciously Speaking, you help people wake up and you consciously create awareness, but I'm curious about your other podcast called, Buy This, Not That. How did that come about? What's the story? Michael: Well, you know, that's an interesting piece as well. We talk about our clients, you know, running into certain situations or questions and for me the questions kept coming up over and over again, like, well, what's the best mail service provider, email provider or what's the best webinar hosting platform? And I found myself answering questions over and over again, like the same questions and I thought, you know there are a lot of solopreneurs out there struggling with these same things. What if I were to .... [Tune in to the Podcast to hear more from Michael Neeley]

With FastLane happening this weekend, this week's show was supposed to be fairly based around Smackdown.  Unfortunately, the blue brand has been pretty rough to watch lately.  So Michael shares his story of another Pro Wrestling Religion live show, Kevin keeps harping on Michael, who's randomly fat-shaming himself, and the guys groan about the rumor of a particular Hispanic millionaire playboy who could be making a return to WWE. #WWE #NXT #RAW #Smackdown #ROH #Wrestling

Questions from Audry Spade   So Michael, you were in your early 20’s when you were convicted and sent to prison. I'm curious about your childhood and the influences you had growing up. How did you arrive at the decision to pursue crime?    What kind of technology do you remember people using back before your arrest in 1987?    You were arrested for drug trafficking and ultimately sentenced to serve 45 years in prison. Describe that first day of your sentence.    What did your days in prison consist of years into your sentence, after that initial shock had worn away?   Describe an average day and the subculture of prison. What was the value system among prisoners? What did you eat? What was expected of you? How did other prisoners regard you?  You made a decision early in your sentence to live an accomplished life from inside prison. How does that compare to the ways in which other prisoners chose to serve their time?   Was it difficult to exclude yourself from the prison’s own inner culture, being that it was the only value system available for you to ascribe to?   How did those around you respond to your decision to reject a lifestyle that none of you could get away from?   Did their reactions change when they realized your determination was paying off and you were actually succeeding?  Through the various forms of media that were available to you, such as television, newspapers, and magazines, you were to some degree exposed to the ways in which technology was changing in the outside world. How did you feel when you saw or read about new technology over the years? Did it interest you? Did you just feel “left out?” How did you end up getting released after 26 years instead of having to serve all 45 years?  Describe your first day of freedom, particularly with regards to interacting with technology.  How long did it take for you to become technologically “fluent?” Do you feel alienated by society’s total reliance on technology today, or have you become just as reliant? Have you retained any old habits from prison?  How’s liberation treating you so far, four years out? What are you up to these days?     

Highlights Trading With The Enemy Act |@01:15 Mata Hari is executes - Mike Shuster |@06:10 Little companies big ideas - War in the Sky |@09:50 Gilder Lehrman Institute program - Tim Bailey |@14:30 Speaking WWI: “Short Hairs” |@ 21:20 100 Cities / 100 Memorials genesis and future - Ken Clarke |@22:40 100 Cities / 100 Memorials profile - Memorial to US Air Service - Michael O’neal and Robert Kasprzak |@30:35 Kiwis Commemorate Passchendaele |@37:00 Michigan sign WWI Centennial Commission into law |@39:00 Madame Curie in WWI |@39:40----more---- Opening Welcome to World War 1 centennial News - It’s about WW1 THEN - what was happening 100 years ago this week  - and it’s about WW1 NOW - news and updates about the centennial and the commemoration. Today is October 18th, 2017 and our guests this week are: Mike Shuster from the great war project blog,    Tim Bailey, Director of Education at the Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History Kenneth Clark, President and CEO of the Pritzker Military Museum and Library And Michael O'Neal with Robert A. Kasprzak from the 100 Cities / 100 Memorials project in Dayton, Ohio sponsored by the League of WW1 Aviation Historians   WW1 Centennial News is brought to you by the U.S. World War I Centennial Commission and the Pritzker Military Museum and Library. I’m Theo Mayer - the Chief Technologist for the Commission and your host. Welcome to the show. [MUSIC] Our theme this week is about hunkering down in the midst of a threat. America has declared its martial intent on 1/2 of a world at war, and now it must take both an offensive and defensive poster. Though u-Boats are an endless threat on the seas, there is little chance that the kaiser would land an army in the Chesapeake bay. But there were plenty of threats to worry about… and the Wilson Administration did! One hundred years ago this week, on October 14th, Wilson signs the “Trading with the enemy act” into law. Today, many aspects of this law would be unthinkable including the appointment of an Alien Property Custodian empowered to seize the assets of immigrant’s businesses and not just mom & Pop outfits but national brands. So let’s jump into the wayback machine to see how this plays out starting 100 years ago this week. World War One THEN 100 Year Ago This Week [MUSIC TRANSITION] Welcome to mid October 1917 - President Wilson has just signed the Trading with the Enemy Act into law giving him new broad powers relating to foreign trade. The intent is that no American trade aids can benefit Germany and its allies in any way. Those allies include Austria-hungary, Bulgaria, and Turkey - even though America has not actually declared war with those allies. Under the act, German-owned property in the US can be seized, and as enemy property German owned patents can be used without royalty including, for example, the German-owned Bayer company’s patented aspirin pills. Treasury secretary McAdoo gets extensive power to control the exchange of Gold and securities between the US and foreign countries. Meanwhile, the Postmaster General has total censorship over the non-english-language press as well as total control over international communications by telegraph. Interestingly, unlike many of the other wartime acts, the trading with the enemy act will not be repealed after the war and will have lasting impact into the 21st century! As one reads the law - it starts by defining who IS an enemy in essence and simply put,  an Enemy is someone we have declared war on. That is simple and makes sense. But the President can also declare any other nation and the citizens of that nation enemies by proclamation. In other words, the friends of my enemy are also my enemy -- And the act reaches deep. For example, if you are a German immigrant living in the US for 20 years. You have built a life, a business and a family,  but you yourself are not an American citizen - well, you are an enemy. Which leads to another expanded definition: “Allie of the Enemy” - which includes any individual, partnership or group of individuals of any nationality inside the enemy’s territories, or someone doing business with the enemy or an allie of the enemy, or company incorporated in enemy territory, or doing business within an allie of the enemy territory - you are an enemy. Given that being declared an enemy allows the US Government to seize your property - both real property and intellectual property, the newly formed Office of Alien Property Custodian, headed by an appointee named Mitchell Palmer, gets busy. Within a year, Palmer will manage 30,000 trusts - or seized properties, businesses or assets - worth ½ a billion dollars. Whole industries are affected - for example, the United States Brewers Association - and the rest of the overwhelmingly German liquor industry is proclaimed to harbor unpatriotic and pro-german sentiments and is effectively seized. For history and law buffs interested in the details, we recommend that you read Mitchell Palmer’s report to President Wilson called: A detailed Report by the Alien Property Custodian of all Proceedings Had by Him under the Trading with the Enemy Act during the Calendar Year of 1918 And the close of business on February 15, 1919. It’s not exactly a page turner but if you skim the index for ideas of interest - like for me personally it is the patents they grabbed and the people they jailed.. Reading primary sources - instead of historian interpretations is really fun - and enlightening. The link to the report and lots of other related articles are in the Podcast notes. Links: Trading with the enemy overview: http://today-in-wwi.tumblr.com/post/166411955808/trading-with-the-enemy-act Office of the Alien Property Custodian overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Alien_Property_Custodian The spoils of war at home https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/us-confiscated-half-billion-dollars-private-property-during-wwi-180952144/ Annual Report of the Alien Property Custodian: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044090082678;view=1up;seq=7 Trading with the Enemy Act: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nnc2.ark:/13960/t4cn8qf7s;view=1up;seq=45 Great War Project OK let’s move from the business of war - interesting - but really - let’s get into something a little hotter, and steamier and maybe more exciting! From the Great War Project Blog - we are joined by Mike shuster, former NPR correspondent and curator for the Great War project. Mike’s post this week is about espionage agent H-21, better known at Mata Hari! Tell us the story Mike!   [Mike Shuster]   Thank you Mike. That was Mike Shuster from the Great War Project blog. LINK: http://greatwarproject.org/2017/10/14/a-spy-faces-the-firing-squad/ War in the Sky Today for our War in The sky segment, we are leafing through a current issue of the Aviation and Aeronautical engineering magazine.  Now it’s not the lead articles that draws attention - of course it sets the mood of the industry with excited  talk of the $640,000,0000 congressional appropriation aimed at aircraft manufacturing. Instead, we are exploring the back end of the magazine where the ads are. There is great stuff here! Like the ⅓ page ad from the Kyle Smith Aircraft company from Wheeling West Virginia. They’ll sell you a two seater biplane - with a land model for $3,000 and for an extra $100 - pontoons for water. Billy Brock and Al Boshek from the Flint Aircraft Company in Michigan will teach you to fly so you can qualify for military examinations as a pilot or as a mechanic. Or the Foxboro Company of Massachusetts who offers a fine looking air speed indicator - noting in their sales pitch: Quote: accurately indicates the relative wind pressure, the force that holds the plane in the air. Hey -- you really gonna want one of those!! Then I stumble across a genuine mystery  - The innovative and visionary Buck Aircraft and Munitions Company of Denver Colorado who places a ¼ page - editorial style ad - you know one of those that today has to have a little “advertising” flag on it so you don’t think it is part of the magazine editorial. The headline reads: The Automatic Aerial Torpedo The story reads: Built on the Buck Aerial Torpedo patent - the aircraft is equipped with a 50 HP motor and designed to carry explosives in the air to any distance up to thirty miles. A time controlled release drops the torpedo at any given distance. The entire equipment is automatic and is launched from a compressed air catapult mounted on a motor truck, the engine of which furnishes the air for the catapult. The torpedo can be fired at any range and at any degree of the compass. This almost sounds like a flying torpedo drone - well that doesn’t make sense for 1917 ---  So of course I chase down the patent they mention. Sure enough… US Patent # 1,388,932 for an aerial torpedo was filed by Hugo Centerwall of Brooklyn New York on July 27, 1916 and here is the kicker. The patent talks about an electric automated guidance steering mechanism with a smart site. Well, I could have spent the rest of the night chasing this down both I, and this segment have run out of time!... So we have to drop the mystery here about the Buck Aircraft and Munitions company of Denver Colorado -- with their catapult launched, maybe unmanned!? guided aerial missile torpedo from 1916---  which happens to pop up in an aerospace engineering magazine 100 years ago in the great war in the sky. There are links in the podcast notes to the ad and to the patent. If any of our intrepid listeners learn more about these guys and their aerial torpedo - please get in touch with us through the contact link at ww1cc.org. There’s a fascinating story here somewhere! Link: Ad https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924060892019;view=1up;seq=436   Patent https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US1388932.pdf   [SOUND EFFECT] The Great War Channel Well - we love that you listen to us - but If you’d like to watch some videos about WW1, go see our friends at the Great War Channel on Youtube - Here is Indy Neidell the shows host: “ Hello WW1 Centennial News Listeners - This is Indy Neidell, host of the Great War Channel on Youtube. American soldiers are dying in combat and the Bolsheviks seize control in Russia as autumn sets in across Europe. Join us for a new episode of The Great War every Thursday by subscribing to our Youtube channel and following us on Facebook. “ New episodes for this week include: Operation Albion -Passchendaele drowns in mud The edge of the abyss - mountain warfare on the italian front Brazil in WW1 - The South American Ally Follow the link in the podcast notes or search for “the great war” on youtube. Link: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheGreatWar World War One NOW [SOUND EFFECT] We have moved forward in time to the present… Welcome to WW1 Centennial News NOW  - This part of the program is not about history but how the centennial of the War that changed the world is being commemorated today. Education [Sound Effect] Education Symposia   This week we are leading off with our Education section  -- You know--- Bringing the lessons of WWI into the classroom is one of the Commission’s prime goals - and with the help of a generous $50,000 grant from the American Legion - we are kicking off a six city teaching tour called “Teaching Literacy Through History”. The program is being produced by  the Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History, the nation’s leading American history organization dedicated to K-12 education. This exciting project is kicking off this month --- and with us today ---  to tell us more about it is Tim Bailey, Director of Education at the Gilder Lehrman Institute. Welcome Tim! [exchange greetings]   Tim - let’s start with the Gilder Lehrman Institute - can you tell us a bit more about it?   [Now about the WWI program - what cities are you going to?]   [If I am a teacher, what will my experience be… and what will I walk away with? ]   [Tim - As the folks that educate the educators - do you have a particular success story that comes to mind?]   [I know this is going to be popular with the teachers - what do they need to do to qualify and how do they sign up?]   Tim - thank you. Hopefully we can find additional funding to take this wonderful program to more cities and teachers around the country - We look forward to having you come back to tell us how the tour went. [exchange closing] That was Tim Bailey, Director of Education from the Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History. We have links about the program and where to sign up in the podcast notes. link: http://ww1cc.org/events http://wwiamerica.org/index.php https://www.gilderlehrman.org/ http://www.worldwar1centennial.org/index.php/communicate/press-media/wwi-centennial-news/3051-wwi-teaching-literacy-through-history-educator-development-sessions-in-six-cities-for-2017-18.html   Education Newsletter And we have more news for teaching WWI - The newest education newsletter from the WW1 Centennial Commission and the National WW1 Museum and Memorial just came out! Issue #9 is “Americans All!” focuses on the diversity of those who served and participated in the war that changed the world. This issue includes resources for teaching about Puerto Rican Laborers, the Harlem Hellfighters, Native Americans in the Red Cross, America’s Foreign born doughboys -- and how World War 1 sparked the gay rights movement. Go to our new education website at ww1cc.org/edu all lower case where you can link to and sign up for the education newsletters and connect with the commission education program - or  follow the link in the podcast notes. Link: ww1cc.org/edu   [SOUND EFFECT] Speaking WW1 And now for our feature “Speaking World War 1 - Where we  explore today’s words & phrases that are rooted in the war  ---   “ALRIGHT MAGGOT - What are you doing sitting on sorry butt. Get on your feet before I drag you up by the Short Hairs!”   Thank you Gunny - it’s good to have you back on the show.   What was Gunny actually saying? Is Short hairs - a vulgar phrase referring to the “nether regions”? Well - Actually not! It refers to an area of the body quite a bit north...   The short hairs in question are those little hairs on the back of the neck. A phrase that seems to have first been used in the military with examples from the Brits dating back to the 1890’s with colonial occupation in india. They were referred to in Rudyard Kilplings “Indian Tales”. The phrase, popularized and spread during the first world war, but then took a turn SOUTH during the second world war, becoming “the short and curlies” and assuming its more vulgar variation. By the short hairs-- not how you want to be caught!-- and this week’s phrase for speaking WW1. See the podcast notes to learn more! link: https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/by-the-short-hairs.html https://books.google.com/books?id=IAjyQdFwh4UC&pg=PA677&lpg=PA677&dq=by+the+short+hairs+ww1&source=bl&ots=_3JEgKpS5H&sig=0RJ46BiAmpi6KsD9QG2cQ64iChU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-sajU__fWAhWLPCYKHbgsCiMQ6AEIZDAO#v=onepage&q=by%20the%20short%20hairs&f=false   100 Cities/100 Memorials [SOUND EFFECT] Welcome to our 100 Cities / 100 Memorials segment about our $200,000 matching grant challenge to rescue and focus on our local WWI memorials. Last month, we announced the first 50 “WWI Centennial Memorials”. Now we are full tilt into ROUND 2 - which includes all the projects that have not received a grant from round 1 and all the new projects that are joining the program.   Round 2 applications can be submitted until January 15th, 2018. Then the selection committee goes back into their VERY difficult process of selecting the second 50 awardees from the submissions. Without exception - every project submitted is amazing - Actually you already know that - You have been hearing project profiles on the podcast for months now - and not all of the projects you learned about were among the first 50 awardees! But before we jump into this week’s profile from the League of WW 1 Aviation Historians about their project at National Museum of the United States Air Force - we have a special treat. Kenneth Clarke section Kenneth Clarke, the CEO and President of the Pritzker Military Museum and Library is joining us. This program is actually Ken’s brainchild and no one can articulate the value and meaning of 100 Cities / 100 Memorials like he can. Ken and I recently had a chance to sit down in Washington DC and talk about the program. [KEN CLARK SEGMENT]   [Ken - 100 Cities / 100 Memorials was a concept you initiated  - Talk to us about how this concept came to mind, germinated and grew into what it is today?]   [Ken - I happen to know that you personally read all the submissions   - what are some of the thoughts you’ve had as a result?] [Ken, last month we announced the first 50 awardees - What are your thoughts about that ? ]   That was Ken Clarke - the President and CEO of the Pritzker Military Museum and Library and the spark that lit the 100 Cities / 100 Memorials program into being.   Joining us now to talk about THEIR 100 Cities / 100 Memorials project are Michael O'Neal, President of the League of WW 1 Aviation Historians and Robert A. Kasprzak (CASPERZAK), Major, USAF (Retired)   Welcome, gentlemen! [exchange greetings] [Gentlemen: Your grant application opens with:   Even though the US Air Service of WW1 was the forerunner of today's Air Force and is a major part of USAF history, no monument dedicated to the World War I Airmen who served at the Front exists today at the National Museum of the United States Air Force.]   [So Michael - as an aviation historian - can you give us a quick overview about how “air power” was organized “Over There” in WWI?]   [Robert - you have been the rally point and cheerleader for getting this memorial to the WWI aviators built - Why is this important?]   [Well gentlemen - your project is a perfect example of amazing, important and wonderful memorial projects that did not get selected in the first 50 grant awards but you are certainly still fully in the running.] [You have a video on Youtube about the project that is pretty compelling - let me play a clip - ]   [You’ve been busy gathering support for your project - how has the response been?]   [Michael you have some project milestones coming up- can you tell us more about them…]   As you may know I am a big WWI aviation fan - and I am rooting for and supporting your project all the way! Thank for taking on the mission - I don’t mean it as a pun - but it IS a monumental task! [exchange thanks]   That was Michael O'Neal and Robert A. Kasprzak talking about their project to commemorate the 75,000 that served in the US Air Service, US Naval and US Marine aviation in WWI - The precursors to the US Air Force. If you are into war birds, aviation history, and the roots of where it call comes from, support these gentlemen and their project - let them know their work matters and contribute to their memorial by following the link in the podcast notes.   We are going to continue to profile 100 Cities / 100 Memorials projects - not only awardees but also teams that are continuing on to round #2 which is now open for submissions. Learn more about the 100 Cities / 100 Memorials program at ww1cc.org/100memorials by following the link in the podcast notes.   Link: www.ww1cc.org/100memorials https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2h9OxRFzFI https://overthefront.com/about/news/ww-i-monument-article [SOUND EFFECT] International Report Kiwis commemorate Passchendaele with Haka at Menin Gate In our International report this week, we head to Ypres, Belgium - There - at the Menin Gate Memorial to the Missing on October 11th and again on the next day at Tyne Cot Cemetery -- New Zealanders gathered to pay tribute to the Kiwi soldiers who fell at the Battle of Passchendaele. October 12th marks the centenary of an attack remembered as the 'darkest day' in New Zealand post-1840’s history. Within a matter of hours, 846 New Zealanders fell in the assault on Bellevue Spur. They were part of repeated Allied attempts to capture the Passchendaele ridge. Including those wounded and missing, New Zealand troops suffered about 2,700 casualties in this single episode. This is a devastating number of young men for a country who, in their 1916 census only counted 1,150,000 people. Speaking during the commemorative event, New Zealand government minister Dr Nick Smith said: "The losses at Passchendaele were so huge that most New Zealand families have a direct connection to a fallen soldier.” The commemorations included a passionate haka, a traditional Maori war cry and dance.   [insert audio of Haka]   We keep mentioning the Battle of Passchendaele, a battle remembered for its mud that swallowed guns, horses and men whole. As the Third Battle of Ypres, the Battle of Passchendaele lasted from July 31st to November 10th 1917.   Two more Battles for this small piece of territory are yet to come. Follow the link in the podcast notes to learn more. link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uHuqrbx890 - NOTE: See 02:30 http://www.centenarynews.com/article/new-zealand-commemorates-its-darkest-day-at-passchendaele Updates from the States Michigan An exciting Update from the States - We are heading over to the Great Lakes State - as Michigan’s Governor Rick Snyder and Michigan state Senator Rebekah Warren sign the Senate Public Act 97 of 2017 into law. This created a new commission within the state's Department of Military and Veterans Affairs. The new official Michigan State WW1 Centennial Commission is charged with planning, developing and executing programs and activities to commemorate the centennial of World War I. Read more about the new Michigan Commission, and check out what else is going on in states across the nation, by following the link in the podcast notes or by visiting ww1cc.org/michigan - all lower case. link:http://www.worldwar1centennial.org/index.php/communicate/press-media/wwi-centennial-news/3241-new-state-level-world-war-i-centennial-commission-signed-into-law-in-michigan.html http://www.worldwar1centennial.org/index.php/participate/state-organizations/state-websites/others-pending.html www.ww1cc.org/michigan Articles and Posts This week in our Articles and Posts segment - where we explore the World War One Centennial Commission’s rapidly growing website at ww1cc.org - This week we are profiling a great article about Madame Marie Curie and her X-ray vehicles - with their contribution to WWI battlefield medicine Ask people to name the most famous historical woman of science and their answer will likely be: Madame Marie Curie. Push further and ask what she did, and they might say it was something related to radioactivity. (She actually discovered the radioisotopes radium and polonium.) Some might also know that she was the first woman to win a Nobel Prize. (She actually won two of them.) But few will know that madame curie was also a major hero of World War I. In fact, a visitor to her Paris laboratory in October of 1917 – 100 years ago this month – would not have found her or her radium on the premises. At that time, Curie decided to redirect her scientific skills toward the war effort; not to make weapons, but to save lives by applying her science to battlefield medicine. Follow the link in the podcast notes to learn more about how Curie started an emergency medical revolution that is still saving the lives of both soldiers and civilians even today. Link: http://www.worldwar1centennial.org/index.php/communicate/press-media/wwi-centennial-news/3247-marie-curie-and-her-x-ray-vehicles-contribution-to-world-war-i-battlefield-medicine.html   The Buzz - WW1 in Social Media Posts That brings us to the buzz - the centennial of WW1 this week in social media with Katherine Akey - Katherine - You have a couple stories found using #countdowntoveterans day to share with us-- Hi Theo! DeValles Elementary School We’ll start with a story that dovetails all the amazing projects we hear about week to week coming out of the 100 Cities 100 Memorials program. In New Bedford, Massachusetts, an elementary school was recently rededicated to its namesake. John B DeValles elementary school installed a bronze relief of DeValles, which had been languishing in storage for decades. Massachusetts National Guardsmen, accompanied by a Black Hawk Helicopter, Humvees, the New Bedford High ROTC members and 200 elementary students took part in the ceremony. The city of New Bedford was also presented with the three medals DeValles was awarded: the Distinguished Service Cross, the WWI Victory Medal and the Croix de Guerre. DeValles was a chaplain, and was awarded these accolades for his bravery in rescuing men from no man’s land. You can read more about DeValles and the ceremony at the link in the podcast notes.   link:http://www.southcoasttoday.com/news/20171011/devalles-elementary-rededicated-in-centenary-of-world-war-1   Native American Warriors Finally this week, I wanted to share a post from the facebook page World War 1 Native American Warriors. They shared the story of Choctaw Private Simeon Cusher, who was killed in action in 1918. The post includes a moving anecdote from Cusher’s Great Grandson as he tells the story of the loss of his teenage son and his travel to visit Private Cusher’s grave at the Meuse-Argonne Cemetery and Memorial. The two losses, almost a hundred years apart, were brought together by this man and the birds that appeared in the sky above as he mourned these separate losses. I encourage you to visit the post via the link in the podcast notes to read the story.   I found these stories by following the #countdowntoveteransday tag on facebook. Tag your veteran’s story, whether historic or current, to share it with the countdowntoveteransday community as we approach November 11th. That’s it this week for the Buzz! link:https://www.facebook.com/NativeAmericanWarriorsWWI/posts/915086041977669   Thank you Katherine. And that all our stories for you this week on WW1 Centennial News - Now before you flick off your play button - remember - for those of you who listen to end - we always leave you with a special goody or two! Closing So in closing - we want to thank our guests: Mike Shuster and his report on the demise of Mata Hari   Tim Bailey telling us about the Teaching Literacy through History Program Ken Clark, President and CEO of Pritzker Military Museum and Library And Michael O'Neal and Robert A. Kasprzak from the 100 Cities / 100 Memorials project at the National Museum of the USAF Katherine Akey the Commission’s social media director and also the line producer for the show.   And I am Theo Mayer - your host.   The US World War One Centennial Commission was created by Congress to honor, commemorate and educate about WW1. Our programs are to-- inspire a national conversation and awareness about WW1; This program is a part of that…. We are bringing the lessons of the 100 years ago into today's classrooms; We are helping to restore WW1 memorials in communities of all sizes across our country; and of course we are building America’s National WW1 Memorial in Washington DC.   If you like the work we are doing, please support it with a tax deductible donation at ww1cc.org/donate - all lower case.   We want to thank commission’s founding sponsor the Pritzker Military Museum and Library for their support.   The podcast can be found on our website at ww1cc.org/cn   on  iTunes and google play ww1 Centennial News, and on Amazon Echo or other Alexa enabled devices. Just say: Alexa: Play W W One Centennial News Podcast. Our twitter and instagram handles are both @ww1cc and we are on facebook @ww1centennial. Thank you for joining us. And don’t forget to share the stories you are hearing here today with someone about the war that changed the world! [music] ALL RIGHT - Listen up - you lilly livers - Gunny knows the difference between scruff of the neck and short hairs - and no gal darn pod--cast is gonna tell me any different - Now move out!   Yes sir! So long!

*The names and characters in this episode represent a composite of people I have know personally and professionally. No real person is represented in this episode, which is intended for educational purposes.* When Your Partner Doesn't Understand Your Trauma   Michael can't understand it. He just doesn't get what is going on with his wife of over 25 years, Amy. Michael is concerned about her and wondering when she is going to "get over" the childhood physical and sexual abuse she went through years ago.  He really just wants her to be okay. And honestly, he's sick of her trauma symptoms affecting her, him and their children. He's not sure how much longer he can take it.  Why can't she just get over it? To be fair, Michael doesn't realize that Amy's mood and behavior are related to her childhood trauma. He just knows that despite years of therapy with various therapists, she sometimes becomes deeply depressed and can't seem to get off the couch for days. Other times the smallest thing will seem to trigger her becoming highly anxious, which can turn into controlling behavior towards himself and the kids. She will sometimes go shopping, overspending with abandon even though they have agreed to stop running up credit card debt - then she hides it from him and acts like she is afraid he will hurt her when he receives the credit card bill. Although he does get really frustrated when this happens, it bothers him that she feels afraid of him at times, because he feels he would never harm her, and he never has gotten physical with her in more than 25 years. He also suspects she may be binging and purging, but they don't talk about it. He's afraid to bring it up and he suspects she would deny it if he asked.. Although she takes medication, her mood swings are still pretty unpredictable and he's never really sure whether he is going to come home from work and find the smiling, got-it-together wife he married; or the disorganized, scattered, overwhelmed and controlling woman she sometimes becomes; or the sad, crying woman he barely recognizes who just wants to sleep as much as possible. He doesn't know how to help her. "She's Changed." All Michael knows is that Amy has changed.  He knew when they got married that she had a "difficult" childhood. He also saw how resilient Amy was then. Despite being abused throughout her childhood she had finished college and started a great career before they married. Although she spoke openly about having experienced that abuse, it didn't seem to have a negative impact on her then. Other than acknowledging that it happened, she didn't really talk about it. And he didn't really want to talk about it - then or now - because just the thought of what she went through, particularly the sexual abuse, horrifies him.  He's not sure if the physical abuse was really all that bad, or why it affects her so much. He wonders if she is really trying in therapy, or whether she somehow is doing all this just for attention. Michael isn't sure how to deal with the emotions that come up for him when Amy is not okay. It reminds him of how he felt responsible for taking care of his mother after his dad died when he was 10. He would often come home from school and his mom would be sitting in the dark on the sofa in her bathrobe. He found himself needing to be adult-like to take care of her, and he was kind of on his own to take care of himself and his younger brother too. He was so relieved to get away from that unhappy childhood, to go to college and start his career, but sometimes he wonders if he married someone he will always have to take care of too. The burden of handling Amy's emotional needs feels very heavy and familiar to Michael. He feels sad, hopeless and discouraged.   Image credit: Canva She feels disconnected. Amy, too, was overjoyed to leave her abusive family behind to marry Michael. She thought things would be so much better once she got away from her controlling, abusive father and her passive mother who was mostly focused on pretending everything was perfect. And things were so much better! She loved her career, she and Michael got along great, and she was very happy to raise her three beautiful children. However, when her third child, little Megan, turned 5 years old Amy started having flashbacks to the abuse that her father inflicted on her as a little girl. A part of her had always felt that she was somehow responsible for the sexual abuse and deserving of the beatings. But seeing her sweet, innocent little Megan, a bright, inquisitive kindergartner, she pictured herself as a little girl and wondered whether it was really true that an innocent child could ever be deserving of being harmed the way her father had harmed her. These thoughts were so sad and overwhelming she tried to push them away. Sometimes she was successful, but other times, particularly in the Spring, she was overwhelmed with fear and worry that something bad would happen to Megan or her two sons. She is bothered by nightmares, trouble sleeping and physical symptoms like Irritable Bowel Syndrome and a feeling that someone is watching her which makes her skin crawl. Sometimes she suddenly vomits, just out of the blue, and she never knows when a panic attack is coming. Much of the time she feels like she is going through the motions of life. She feels disconnected from her neighbors and the other moms in her community. She describes herself as "on the outside looking in" to her life. She doesn't work outside the home now, and she's not sure if she ever will again. Most of the time she feels like she is barely holding it together. She wishes Michael were more empathetic and supportive of what she's going through but he doesn't seem to understand why she can't just "put the past behind her." She feels alone and disconnected from him, and wonders what happened to the happy newlyweds they once were. She is sad and worried about the way she feels, but she doesn't know what to do about it. The Truth Is, They Are Both Struggling This dynamic is all too common and I hear stories from both sides of the relationship described above in my office every day. Many of my clients are women like Amy who feel deeply ashamed that they are still affected by the abuse from their childhood years. And others are men like Michael who wonder if they can handle the emotional burden of their partner's PTSD. Regardless of gender, both Amy and Michael could be any one of us. They both feel alone and don't know how to reach the other partner. Whether you can relate to Amy's feelings or Michael's, it's helpful to understand a few things.  Three Things to Remember: You are not alone. Whether you are the person who experienced childhood trauma or the person who loves them, what you are feeling is common. Many people are affected by childhood trauma. It is so much more common than most of us realize. Click here to learn more about the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study (ACES) and the prevalence of childhood trauma.   Trauma survivors aren't trying to be difficult.They are actually just trying to feel normal. In the scenario I described above, both Amy and Michael are affected by childhood trauma, though neither of them understands the effects in depth. Amy could be described as the "identified patient" - she's the one who is seen as having a problem and needing help. And she does need help. She is suffering so much. Amy's trauma is that she was physically and sexually abused by an adult (her father) whom she trusted to take care of her and keep her safe. Her mother was unable to protect her and pretended nothing was wrong. So both of her primary caregivers, whom she depended on for safety and protection, let her down. She is affected by a loss of attachment as well as the effects of the abuse. But Amy's not the only one in this example who needs help. Michael, too, experienced childhood trauma. His father died when he was only ten, and in her grief his mother was unable to attend to Michael's emotional needs. Instead, in order to be safe, Michael had to take care of his mom's emotional needs, and his own needs were ignored. He also had a younger brother to look out for. So Michael experienced a loss of attachment when neither of his parents was available to take care of his emotional needs, as well as the trauma of his dad's sudden death.  It's no wonder that Amy and Michael were drawn to each other, because they both had unresolved pain they were trying to escape when they met. However, Michael's role as a caregiver in his family may have helped him feel comfortable marrying someone who he perceived as having gone through something terrible (without realizing how he himself was affected by his own trauma). Both Amy and Michael were young when they met, and they were both doing the best they could. They both wanted to be okay, and they were trying to be okay together. For a while they were, but the effects of trauma always pop up just when you least expect them. Neither Amy nor Michael is able to be a support for the other, because they are both affected by their own childhood trauma. They can both benefit from counseling with a skilled trauma therapist. Trauma therapy can help. The reason Amy has been in and out of therapy for 10 years without experiencing relief from her trauma symptoms is that she hasn't had the right kind of therapy. 9 times out of 10, my clients with extensive trauma histories will tell me that their previous therapists never explained trauma to them or told them that their symptoms could be related to trauma. Why? The therapists probably didn't know. Trauma is still a newer field of study, although its effects have been documented for years.  Understanding that your symptoms are caused by trauma helps take an overwhelming set of symptoms that are seemingly unrelated and offers hope and clarity. You begin to recognize that you developed these coping methods (like dissociation, comfort eating, compulsive shopping, depression, anxiety) because of the effects of trauma, and not because there is something wrong with you.  Can You Relate? You may be wondering if you are an Amy or a Michael. I can't answer that for you, but here are some symptoms which may indicate that you are affected by childhood trauma.  If you have had some kind of disturbing experience in childhood that has always bothered you, for example: Loss of a primary caregiver Any unwanted sexual experience Any sexual experience you were too young to understand Witnessing violence, whether it happened to you, your caregiver or another family member Feeling that no one understood you, no one cared about you, or that you were abandoned, unwanted, or unloved Being bullied Receiving physical punishment, including spanking, beating, whipping, or being physically abused or harmed by an adult when you were a child Having a parent or primary caregiver who abused alcohol or drugs These are just a few examples of situations that could be traumatic in childhood. Read this article for more, and consider taking the ACES quiz as well.  So if you have some kind of childhood experience you think might have been traumatic AND you have some of these symptoms: Trouble falling asleep or staying asleep, nightmares, sleep paralysis Feeling numb, detached, zoning out, trouble concentrating, easily distracted, losing time Memory issues - feeling forgetful, being disorganized Feeling a nagging sense that there is just something wrong with you, something that makes you different from everyone else Feeling like you are on the outside looking in Trouble feeling close with other people, trust issues, feeling suspicious of other people's motives, thoughts like "no one can be trusted" and a feeling that it's you against the world Panic attacks, anxiety, need to maintain control at all times, rigidity, need for order Feeling mistrustful of your partner, feeling judgmental and critical of others and yourself Body image issues, physical symptoms like chronic pain, stomach issues, migraines,  Sexual problems - lack of interest in sex, shame related to sex Constantly on high alert, watchful, vigilant, can't relax - you hate it when someone comes up behind you and touches your shoulder or stands too close to you You might be affected by childhood trauma. No article can substitute for talking with a qualified therapist. If you are wondering if you are affected by childhood trauma, talk to a therapist. You can usually speak to them by phone before scheduling an appointment to make sure they feel qualified to help with the issue that affects you.  Here are some resources for finding a qualified trauma therapist: National Child Traumatic Stress Network ISSTD Sensorimotor Psychotherapy Institute EMDRIA Sidran Institute Somatic Experiencing Institute RAINN And here are some suggestions for further reading and learning: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk In the Realm Of Hungry Ghosts by Gabor Maté ACES Primer (video) Finding a therapist who understands the effects of trauma on child development and has specialized training in trauma recovery can make a huge difference. Whether you are directly affected by childhood trauma or it is a problem for someone you love, therapy can help. You don't have to keep suffering.   The first step is understanding that your trauma is real, that it matters, and that you can feel better. Then the hard part comes - trusting a therapist to help you. I know there are many caring and skilled trauma therapists out there who want to help. I am one of them. If you're in the Baltimore area of Maryland, I would love to talk about how we can work together to help you feel better. Give me a call at 443-510-1048 or e-mail me at laura@laurareaganlcswc.com.  You can also contact me directly through my website at this link. Or visit my website to learn about how I work with trauma. 

So Michael, a listener of the show, sent in a few questions and in the next couple of episodes we are answering them The first being around 'When do you move from the bedroom office to the city office?".

Today we talk with Michael Oneal. Michael has over 500 episodes of his Solopreneur Hour, and also a co-host/producer of the Hines Ward show. Michael talks about how standing out leads to better relationships which lead to better opportunities. He also talks about his new "Art of the Interview" course. Sponsor: Emerald City Productions Your first four episodes edited for $15 each, and after that, it's only $40. Think of the time your will save, and think about how good you will sound. All the ums, and yaknows will be gone. All of your volumes will be even, and the equalization will be just right (not too much bass, not too thin) Check them out at www.emeraldcitypro.com/sop Because of my Podcast: Jim Collison Caught the Attention of the Department of Labor 3:06 Jim Collison does a podcast for his job. Also at his job he works with high school students in an intern program. The country needs more programmers. Gallup is making it happen. He got interviewed on the program (see the video at http://gallupgethip.com/info, but what caught the ears of the State of Nebraska Department of Labor? The Audio podcast. So because of Jim’s Podcast, he got a meeting with the Department of Labor for the State of Nebraska. See Jim’s podcast for Gallup at http://coaching.gallup.com Jim also does his podcast which you can find at www.theavaergeguy.tv Michael Oneal Stand Outs Above the Rest 9:51 Michael Oneal comes up with stuff that is awesome, and the beauty of his information is that it is stuff you can put into action immediately. Here is an example. If you are doing an interview with someone and you don't want them to use the "same old stories" in this interview. What do you do? Use those stories in your introduction, and they can't use them in their answers. They are forced to come up with NEW answers. BRILLIANT. He has a new course called the Art of the Interview which you can find at www.artoftheinterview.co Michael started out as a web designer who has lived all over the country and has had some great experiences. He is a professional drummer and has acquired skills in all sorts of areas. He filled in on the David Wood Show, started his own show and within a year was making a six figure income. Today we want to know how he did it.  Michael stood out by giving Pat Flynn an iTunes gift card, and late taking him to lunch (after slowly building the relationship) then DIDN'T grill him about business (he zagged when everyone else zigged). This "non-grilling" talk then stood out from every conversation that Pat usually has at lunch. So Michael turned that into the Solopreneur Hour Show and how he has over 8 million downloads. Michael produces/hosts a show with Hines Ward Show from the Pittsburgh Steelers. Today you hear how relationships got Michael in the door that had been closed. Michael spent 90% of his bank account to buy flowers for John Lee Dumas, and it resulted in a great friendship that has lead to Michael partnering with John with different projects. Michael turned down coaching because he didn't feel he was a coach. His audience showed him he was missing an opportunity. He didn't launch with giant platforms. He got to know his audience by talking directly with his community and launched with a private Facebook group. This private Facebook Group has now evolved to Michael's Solo Lab.  28:02 Michael is launching a new show about Hi End Stereo Equipment because he likes talking about it. He's not thinking about sponsors. He's not thinking about downloads. He's thinking he enjoys super high-end audio equipment and wants to talk about it. Now think about that. THIS AUDIENCE (hi-end stereo equipment) HAS MONEY, AND they don't have a problem spending it. He didn't over think it. He didn't do months of research. He wants to talk about it, so he did. As he said on his Solorpreneur show, "I'll figure the rest out later." Most shows are awful because they are started not on passion, but on the idea of monetization and making big bucks. So when life happens, and you run out of steam, your episodes suffer. The Art of the Interview 30:00 Michael trains people that "Patterns Become Products" and that is what inspired the Art of the Interview Course that Michael recently launched. People kept asking him for it (a pattern) so he turned it into a product; Here again, Michael took steps to stand out. He made three separate courses in one. He recorded the course in a video format For the audio version, he didn't just strip the audio from the video. He recorded different audio to maximize the audio format. He had some take transcripts of the audio, and then tweak it into a Kindle book. He does a "directors cut" version of one of his toughest interviews. You get to hear Michael "Armchair Quarterback" the interview. More Ways To Stand Out 38:01 Michael shared the stories of gift cards and flowers, but Michael shares GREAT tips on making sure your guest will promote your show People don't take the word "host" serious enough. As many podcast listeners don't listen to the end of the show, don't wait to plug the guest at the end of the show (please note that is why I plugged Michael's courses at the beginning of the interview). Michaels Resources Solo Media Ninja Course Michael's Coaching Program Michael's Free Course on Attending Contentions Michaels Solo Lab Art of the interview course Solopreneur Hour Podcast Dynamic Ad Insertion Is Awful 45:20 Dynamic ads allow you to populate our back catalog with advertisements. I play a clip from a show, and the transition from content to ad back to content is mind boggling. Advertisecast.com has announced that they partnered with Podomatic. While this is interesting, what we need is not more podcasts. For those that want to monetize, we need MORE SPONSORS. Mentioned In This Show New Media Show JKM Agency (Podcast Advertising) Ryan K Parker from the Food Craftsmen Alexa Cast (New Test Podcast From Dave Jackson about the Amazon Echo) Podcast Consulting Sale (ENDS SOON) Use the coupon code backfriday now through the end of the month on one on one consulting Purchase 60 minutes of consulting and get a free month at the School of Podcasting

A shopping center called 'Whaler's village' was very close to where we stayed in Maui. At its entrance was a very elegant, metal statue of a mother humpback whale and her baby. You might know(1) that the water right next to Maui is the one place where humpbacks breed. The ocean here is called the Au'au channel; it is, remarkably, only 300ft deep at the most. Its name in Hawaiian means 'to take a bath', and that makes sense because the channel forms a circular area, with 3 islands around it, so it is sheltered as well as warm and shallow. These conditions make it perfect for the humpback whales who migrate all the way from Alaska where they have been feeding. They spend the winter here, mate or give birth, feed their babies, and then make the 3,500 mile journey back to Alaska. A very special event for anyone who happens to be(2) on Maui between November and April is the breaching of the whales which is their jumping. The mothers teach their babies how to do this. With one flip of their massive tails, they fly out of the water upright, and crash back down with a huge splash. My family and I went out on a boat especially to see this performance. We were very lucky, because about 20 minutes into our trip, the owner of the boat spotted a mother and her baby playing. All the people on the boat were saying, "Oooh!" and "Ah!" and clicking their cameras. The mother only jumped a couple of times; that's usually all they do. The baby, however, was in a very playful mood, and jumped and jumped until he got tired. He then made a circle above his mother and disappeared. The boat owner told us that this is a sign the babies make when they are hungry for milk. Once he was busy feeding, we moved on(3) to another part of the Au'au channel to find more whales. The baby whales get strong quickly; they are 10 to 15 ft long when they are born, weighing 1 ton, and drink 200 to 600 litres of fat-rich milk per day. They generally end up being 40-60 ft adults who weigh 44 tons or more. As you can imagine, it was both surprising and dramatic to see these huge creatures playing around. It's not every day that you witness such an event. 1. 'You might know (that)/ you might already know that' is a useful phrase that helps to engage your listener. a. You might know that the first explorers from Europe who discovered America were the Vikings. b. The presidential race is continuing; you might already know that Rubio is out. 2. '(A person) happens to be.../ you happen to be' is another  idiomatic phrase that is common. a. I happened to be in the right place at the right time to see the lunar eclipse. b. So Michael, can you explain how your hand happened to be in the cookie jar when I walked into the kitchen? 3. 'To move on' means to continue on your way, or to finish doing something and to start doing something else. a. We finished our paintings, and then moved on to our sculptures. b. Ok, can we stop arguing and move on to the next subject? c. We lost our house in an earthquake. We wanted to rebuild, but we decided to move on and find somewhere else to live.

In a lot of respects the Boston loss (and its aftermath) crystalized just how bad this team has been over the course of the season for many fans. So Michael and I talk fallout - trades, what we want this team to do, what we think they will do, what is a decent outcome if trades do start happening. We also talk about how some of these players fit or don't fit in Gentry's system. Then - upcoming games and Mike makes me define Rap terms. Yay! Enjoy the podcast!