Asketic Podcast

Saruna ar VEDAM vadītāju Gati Rūtiņu un Asketic partneri un dizaineri Miķeli Baštiku par to kā aizvest zīmolu jaunā līmenī.

How design and creative industries create value, how to export design and what the future holds for Baltic designers on the global stage. Join Asketic co-founder Miķelis Baštiks and Algirdas Orantas — Partner at The Critical, Board Member of the Lithuanian Design Association, and Chair of the National Association of Creative and Cultural Industries.

Saruna ar AVAR izpilddirektoru Ilviju Veiti un Asketic partneri un dizaineri Miķeli Baštiku par spilgtākajiem izaicinājumiem un negaidītiem pavērsieniem, ko Ilvija piedzīvojusi, 30 gadus darbojoties auto industrijā – no stereotipiem līdz drosmīgām pārmaiņām

Saruna ar Backdoor Market veidotāju Reini Ulmi un Asketic partneri un dizaineri Miķeli BaštikuPar biznesu, radošumu un modi

Saruna ar Runas Skola veidotāju, teātra un operas režisoru Viesturu Meikšānu un Asketic partneri un dizaineri Miķeli Bašstiku par podkāstu veidošanu un kā apvienot radošo un biznesa pasauli

Saruna ar PLŪKT veidotāju Māru Lieplapu un @MikelisBastiks, Asketic partneri un dizaineri — par to kā izveidot tējas zīmolu no Latvijas, kurš tiek pieprasīts visā pasaulē.

Saruna ar Reini Sembergu, agencyJR veidotāju, un Miķeli Baštiku, Asketic partneri un dizaineri — par to vai e-pastus vēl kāds vispār lasa un kā ar e-pasta mārketingu sasniegt pārdošanas rezultātus vairāk nekā $60M apmērā.

Saruna ar ELYNDI dibinātāju Elīnu Didrihsoni un Asketic partneri un dizaineri Miķeli Baštiku. Sarunā par to kā atrast līdzsvaru starp radošo darbu un uzņēmējdarbību, kā zīmols palīdz veidot pašpārliecinātību un nostiprināties globālajā tirgū, kā arī kāpēc pieticība ne vienmēr ir noderīga?

Saruna ar OAD dibinātāju un vadošo arhitekti Zani Teteri-Šulci un Asketic partneri un dizaineri Miķeli Baštiku.  Sarunā par to, kā atrast līdzsvaru starp radošo darbu un uzņēmējdarbību, kā zīmols palīdz veidot pašapziņu un pieteikt sevi globālā tirgū, un kāpēc pieticība ne vienmēr ir noderīga.

Saruna ar Supliful līdzdibinātāju Mārtiņu Lasmani un Asketic partneri un dizaineri Miķeli Baštiku.  Sarunā par to, kā Supliful 2 gadu laikā ir izdevies pacelt apgrozījumu no 200K–8M, kādēļ kā vadītājam ir svarīgi būt klātesošam sociālajos medijos, kā arī par mērķi izveidot pasaules mēroga organizāciju.

Language Teacher Family un Gunita Lanka 2 gadu laikā no 0 ir izveidojuši personīgo zīmolu ar 2.5M sekotājiem soc. mediju kanālos, kas ir devis viņu ģimenes uzņēmumam iespēju attīstīt biznesu globālā mērogā, dzīvojot un strādājot Liepājā.

Get ready for another insightful episode with Mikelis Bastiks, co-founder of Asketic, and Valters Vestmanis, Partner at Index Masterclass as they talk about how investing and branding go hand in hand. Discover valuable tips on using social media for social proof, boosting engagement, growing your community, building brand association and much more.

Join Asketic's Mikelis Bastiks, co-founder of Asketic, and Linda Kalnina, Corporate Brand Manager at Riga Airport, offering exclusive insight about the journey of the rebranding process of RIX Riga Airport.

Join Mikelis Bastiks, co-founder of Asketic and Janis Lanka, head of product management, offering exclusive insight about to e-commerce, product management, digital product strategy and methods of planning and prioritization - time protection

Join Asketic co-founder Mikelis Bastiks and Liva Grinberga, Design Director, Speaker, Mentor, and Educator, offering exclusive insight into how to effectively lead a diverse team of designers from around the world, ensure consistent quality standards, and nurture positive relationships. Discover how controlled fears can fuel your creativity, and learn to provide constructive feedback to creatives while advocating for the client's needs.

Join Asketic co-founder Mikelis Bastiks and early stage investor, Firstpick co-founder Marijus Andrijauskas, offering an exclusive insight into investing in early stage Baltic startups and why moving fast is so important

Join co-founder Mikelis Bastiks and Printify brand lead David Hooker for Part 2, offering an exclusive insight into visual identity upgrade, brand design agency selection, and the process of structuring the implementation phase for your new brand.

Join Asketic co-founder Mikelis Bastiks and Printify brand lead David Hooker sharing practical insights on how to build a brand story, implementing it across the company & finding a balance while evolving the brand.

In this episode, Asketic Co-Founder Mikelis Bastiks and Rita Alika-Šteinmane, CEO / Executive Producer and co-owner of Panic animation studio share practical insights on how to build a brand to land Google, Netflix, Indeed, Uber, jetBlue, American Express, McDonald's, etc. and craft a global head-turning brand story

In this episode, Asketic Co-Founder Mikelis Bastiks and Mikus Opelts, founder of Giraffe360, share practical insights on building a team's operating cadence, effective international team management, and how imperfections make us unique. 

Join us for an insightful episode of the Asketic Podcast featuring Mikelis Bastiks, Co-Founder of Asketic, in conversation with Lotte Tisenkopfa-Iltnere, the Founder of MÁDARA Cosmetics, as they delve into the secrets of achieving explosive growth through the mastery of brand consistency.

Asketic Podcast Episode with Asketic Co-Founder Mikelis Bastiks and CMO SmartLynx Airlines, on how to reach and work with a Niche Audience.

Asketic podkāsta epizode ar Asketic līdzdibinātāju Miķeli Baštiku un Rīgas galveno pilsētas dizaineri Evelīnu Ozolu par to, ko dizains nozīmē pilsētvidē un kā tas ietekmē mūsu ikdienu.

Asketic Podcast Episode with Asketic Co-Founder Miķelis Baštiks and Founder of Sellfy.com, Māris Daģis, on how to sell digital products and monetize your audience.

Asketic Podcast Episode with Asketic Co-Founder Miķelis Baštiks and Founder Tom Adam Vitolins at Tom Adam on building an authentic luxury family business.

Asketic Podcast Episode with Asketic co-Founder Miķelis Baštiks and Co-Founder at Starwatcher.io Ernests Štāls on how artificial intelligence will impact brand design. 

Asketic Podcast Episode with Asketic co-Founder Mikelis Bastiks and Chief Marketing Officer at Corebook.io - Raitis Velps, on mastering brand consistency. 

As an introduction, could you broadly tell us about your path to marketing and brand management?My path to marketing began in school, because that's the moment when you realize you're good at a lot of things, but you don't know which path to take. You realize that marketing is just a small chunk of something. You have languages, finances, geography, understanding of people. It began during school with the “not knowing” of where to go next. This state of not knowing led me to studying finances, which is quite an interesting direction. I got my Bachelor's degree at “BA School of Business and Finance”. Then the path led me to agencies. I started as a project manager. Initially it was an event agency, I organized various events for clients, had various experiences with marketing and sponsorships. From project managing I advanced to project directing. I was entrusted with managing an agency within the McCann Group. I managed the whole agency. It was an event, experience marketing agency. Shortly before the crisis I was approached by Tele2. I was quite excited at that moment, since I've found telecommunications to be really interesting. Innovations and technologies have always been close to my heart. I was one of those people who used an illegally unlocked iPhone, when they still weren't available in Latvia. I've always enjoyed trying new technologies. At Tele2, my path began as a value-added services manager. I was the head of sponsorship department who's responsible for all brands, business, Zelta Zivtiņa, Tele2, everything that's incoming, our sponsorship strategy, how we show up on television, Zelta Talanti, ZZ Čempionāts, event as a whole, sponsorship of Positivus, it was all my responsibility. If we look at brands of drinks sponsoring events, they could easily sell their drinks at these events and earn back their money. My job was to create content, which was quite challenging back when all our phones still had buttons. To create content which you then try to sell, like incoming call melodies or pictures, was challenging at the beginning. I grew out of this position quite organically. The market changed, there was a crisis, and sponsorships took a downward turn globally. When that happened, I took on other experience marketing activities not related to sponsorships, for example, opening of new Tele2 stores. Back then Tele2 was going through a global relaunch, therefore it had to be relaunched in Latvia as well. I had the joy and honour to be a part of the team implementing this and to work with global agencies, and experience the whole brand creation stage from the very beginning. Then I had an offer to take over the brand of Zelta Zivtiņa. At first it meant campaigns, we still worked with the concept of doing youth and friendship type of ads. Then the telecommunication market changed, the essence of the product changed. Until then services were based on minutes, but then everything went limitless. I had to launch a new Zelta Zivtiņa, but it wasn't just the visual identity. It was a commercial launch, which included a complete change of the product portfolio, from incoming call bonuses and tariffs based on minutes to fixed price and limitless use. I had the joy to create the first limitless tariff plan in the prepayment market, which was a first in Europe. Back then no prepayment plan offered limitless calls, and that was an interesting turn of events. Due to that, we realized we had to change the story, the creative concept, brand's idea, brand's narrative and brand's visual identity, and that was a significant process, since you're aware you're working with a brand that has the biggest client base in Latvia. It was very challenging. I vividly remember sitting in the call centre and calling people who were still using ancient, unfavourable tariffs and offering a new one, because it was essential to hear out the client in order to create something better. Time went on, the Tele2 period was quite long, about 10 years. Then I had an offer to join a start-up called Sonarworks. I joined them in two thousand and…, It's about five years ago. At Sonarworks, I'm responsible for the whole product and company brand family, for Sound ID and Sound ID Reference. These last two are the fruits of our latest relaunch.So you switched from a large, international company, which has a huge audience in Latvia, to a start-up that has a very niche audience?Yes, but it's about scope. I basically worked with the largest client base in Latvia, but I switched to a company that has an ambition to take over the whole world. It means there's a completely different story. I left a company that's very much guided by marketing and sales, but I joined a product-guided company. That's completely different story and something new and challenging for me. To be a part of the product creation process. Product marketing has quite the significance, which I previously wasn't that much involved with. It was all about the brand, the brand being beloved, having a client base. You offer them the best, you talk about tariffs, sales campaigns. Here it's the opposite. You talk through a different prism. That's what attracted me the most. Secondly, you have the opportunity to create something and do something meaningful, and make the name of Latvia be heard abroad, and be present when someone else is trying to achieve that, while providing support with your knowledge, experience both in an agency and on the client's side.What are the most significant changes you've experienced during these five years at Sonarworks, which is a niche company that works with sound engineers worldwide? It's a niche, but you're reaching it globally from here, in Riga. What are the things you do here, that you wouldn't be doing in a large, global company?Targeting is very important for us. When you're entering a global market, it's essential to know who you're approaching, what you want to achieve and what is your audience. Your strategy can't be to aim a cannon at sparrows. It doesn't work. Firstly, you don't have the money for it, you can't afford it. You pay a lot of attention to how you spend your money; you plan very carefully. If you do spend money on something, you want to show the best possible quality for it. When it comes to a large company, you can create a video, polish it to perfection, you have time to prepare for it. In our case, we create a launch video in two weeks. We just don't have the option to polish a packshot for six months. The whole cycle is different. The essence of a start-up is that if you're releasing something that's finished, then it's too late. You're better of releasing it gradually. You release a minimum viable product (MVP) version, and you test it, you improve something, you see whether the message does its job. You release two landing pages and see which one has a better traffic. It's about so many experiments, using growth hacking methods. You grow though many small details, since you don't know what works. At the same time, you have a huge ambition, and your goal is set quite high, so that you don't lose out on some opportunities along the way in case your goal was smaller. Your goal is as high as possible, so that you attempt everything at your power to achieve it. Those are the biggest differences. Also having a quick response. Another significant difference in a start-up that involves a heavy, difficult technology, like audio industry, which doesn't have the most comprehensive terminology, technology, white papers, basically it involves a lot of heavy information. The process and on-boarding itself is very hard. I still remember myself as I joined this team. You're excited, you want to do something, but you don't fully understand the product. It takes a while until you comprehend it yourself, since you as a brand marketing expert have to know what you're selling, you have to feel confident about it. I still visit our product developers at R&D and don't understand half of what they're saying. Our company is constantly in a phase where we research new concepts, new data. During this process, we patent them, since when they've ben researched and they make sense, they can be launched and evolved further. That makes any on-boarding extremely hard. The fact that we keep a lot of things in-house and we can't outsource them also makes a difference.For you as a marketing and branding person, how important is it to be on top of the whole product, so that you're able to tell about it to others?Extremely. When I first joined the team, it was very important to me. We have a great on-boarding procedure for new people joining the team. We try out the product ourselves, we have a studio demo. We have two business lines. One for creators of music – musicians, studio engineers, recording studio staff. Real creators of music and sound, because it's not only music, it's also movie soundtracks, games which have a huge audience and where sound is extremely important. The second part is the listeners. So we have these two blocks. When I joined, the company was already steadily recognized in the professional industry among creators of music, and we attempted to provide this same technology, which is an application that removes sound colouring from speakers and headphones. This technology removes such colouring as bass or other colouring arising from the specific room. It removes it and adapts it to the so called studio reference. And we then deliver this clean sound. Let's say an engineer working in Los Angeles wants to hand over his work to the second engineer working in New York, but the room, equipment, headphones and speakers over there are completely different, yet he can be sure the sound will the same, without any colouring created by the room or different headphones. We know that different devices create different sound. If use Beats headphones, they will have bass. It won't be a clean sound. When we realized that we have a unique technology, we decided that we can deliver this clean studio sound to the listener as well. We did it very successfully; people liked this idea and this product. Upon providing this consumer product to more and more people, we gained an important insight, namely, that every person has their own taste. There is no single approach to sound that's liked by everybody. Maybe I do like the bass, or my hearing is slightly impaired on the right side. There are these personal factors. The device you're using, the sound transmission, what streaming platform you're using, since they tend to compress their files and they're not always with high definition. It's your device, your hearing, your preferences. It's a multi-level optimization of sound, which actually is quite complex.  That's why the initial on-boarding is so important, so you understand it all. You have to hear and experience this product, in order to believe it. It's hard to explain. Oh, you have an hour? Let me tell you about our three-level sound optimization. If you only have five minutes, then have a listen of this. That's the difference. Back when I started working, there was this cool stage, when had these demos, we were invited to the studio to listen to the clean sound, and that really showed what the software is capable of, how it can fix the hardware, which isn't particularly flexible and easy to fix. When you have a listen and experience it, that's when you believe it.What is it like to sell to the world this clean sound? As you said, it's hard to explain and must be actually heard first. But you have to communicate it to the whole world from Riga. And you have to sell the clarity itself, instead of some effect.The studio people already know this, they know their graphs, they know how these curves work. What happens in studio? A song is recorded, these “golden ears” as they are called in the industry polish the song. The next step before they deliver it to any labels or Spotify is to listen to this sound on various devices, for example, Apple EarPods, Beats headphones, the most basic radio. You can't affect the middle stage, at least it wasn't possible until now. And our technology assists in this stage. If I as a listener pick up some headphones, I have no idea what their curve is and what they sound like. I know that our technology will, first, equalize the sound to the studio level and remove the manufacturer's colouring as we call it, and then apply my preference, the exact number of bass that I like, adjust the sound to my hearing according to the test done within few minutes, since I might hear better with the left ear and have trouble hearing high frequencies with my right ear. It will take the clear base, and add the unique personalization on top.You as a brand person have to know all the technical aspects to such extent that you're able to tell about them to someone else. You just can't do without it. While working with designers there as this feedback, where you felt confident in the design side of things and could provide valuable feedback in the process of working with designers. And you have to be on top of your direct task, which is branding and marketing, you have to have a good knowledge of the technical side and the terminology used by designers. We can draw parallels with what you said about being interested in and being good at several things at the same time.And not being able to choose.And this is the position, where you can draw from all of these areas. When I talked with colleagues, they said good things about the way you communicated within the design process. That you're knowledgeable in the specifics of design and are able to provide valuable feedback, without stepping on the designer's toes. What are the communication principles that you've learned during all these years working with the creatives that allows designers to feel good about this collaboration?As a brand manager, you've already been given free rein. For example, if you're creating a new brand identity, your task is to create something conceptual, a frame that still allows others to express their creativity. You can't define absolutely everything. If you define every single detail, you'll end up with a brand book on 400 slides. It's been done before, but I prefer providing a clear, high-quality toolbox that one can work with and then just trust the person. You have to give a clear briefing, it's very important. Over the years you learn to define your specific wants, your mood board and the direction. What helps me in the process is providing a debrief in the initial stage and a starting direction, namely, being present at the very beginning with the aim to talk things through, and the just letting the creative process take place without interfering, to just trust. I'm not a designer and I can't provide assistance. There's a point when you have to allow the designer to do his job. What you can do on your side is research, providing information about the audience, global trends and the product, provide a toolbox and give them free rein.You mentioned the term “brief”. Could you name some basic principles of a good brief? What should a good brief look like in order for it to work efficiently?I've created various briefs, starting from a one-pager to a 400-slide presentation with plenty of visual samples. I prefer briefs with a lot of aids, that's my practice. I give an assignment, provide background, tell about our biggest challenges within the specific assignment. There's always a timeline. Then there's an additional block of aids. I always have an urge to link something that's already done, like a brand strategy deck. Provide things that help the creative process to reach a deeper level of things. Provide it as additional information in the end instead of putting it into the brief. Then there's a debrief session, where we establish in few sentences whether we have understood each other. The next step is the direction and first concepts. It depends on the project. Whether it's a rebranding project, or material for a specific campaign, maybe it's packaging or a project of other sorts. It differs. It could also be a video. I enjoy the so-called checking-in. We make calls, we check whether we're on the same page and move forward, invest more time. I don't expect that the agency will come up with everything at once. As I said, the product is quite complex, it's also not a product that everyone needs. It's a “nice to have” product. You have to create the need yourself. It's not easy, therefore I try to help as much as I can, but I also know when to step back. There have been times when I've said “make my logo bigger”, but I try not to be like that.How do you see the tasks of a company's brand manager? What are your responsibilities? Where are you aiming to take the brand in the long-term? Of course, you manage all kinds of day-to-day activities, but if you look a few years in in the future, what are you trying to achieve as a brand manager? Brand is a tool that supports the product. At the moment, one thing that's very important for me and the brand is to maintain simplicity in everything we do, since our product is so heavy on technology. The creator's side, the terminology and the white papers I mentioned, it involves heavy technological information. Even the product itself is heavy. Even the technology for listeners involves a three-level sound optimization. In essence it's a smart equalizer. Audio lovers used to turn the knobs, but now you can do it with an app. You have an AB test, which helps you find your sound preference. Then you enter a silent room and test your hearing. My goal is to make it as simple as “click, click, boom”. Let's take that same studio engineer, he has to measure the room he's working in, so that he can calibrate his speakers. We're thinking that the measurements should be taken in the process, while you're just starting to use the software. It's important to show the measuring process as very simple. In the sense that you have a technologically heavy product, but you communicate it as something intuitive and easy, as something simple, even though it's really, really hard work. We have created 3D elements, you even helped us with that. We have created video instructions, showing everything step by step. Then we test it out in a group, get the first feedback. It's quite an iterative process. You just make corrections again and again. On the brand's side, I want everything to be clean and simple, even the app's interface. If there's a text, maybe we can do without it. We try to show some parts of the on-boarding and explain in the beginning what this app is about. We're aware that a lot of people skit that part, but we try to keep it short and sweet, so you have some understanding once you go through it. It's like training in a way. How simply can you describe everything on the website? You could publish the whole white paper on there, but is that necessary? It's not easy to just pull out the essence of it all. Simplicity is the most challenging part in this position. If we talk about long-term ambitions, as cheese as it might sound, it would be Apple and Macintosh products, because they are so complex, yet the user interface's design is so simple. So that's something to aim for.How do you find the balance between daily tasks, like social networks and newsletters, and the long-term goals of the brand, when you're responsible for both of these things? Do you have any annual goals or sprints?We use the OKR planning method, so we have quarterly plans, and then, based on these plans, we plan our tactical action. Based on the Agile principle, we have two-week sprints. You divide your quarterly goal accordingly in your Jira board and complete the tasks. At the end of every two-week period, we have a team retrospective, where we each share or progress. Then together we make a plan for the next sprint. During these Monday planning sessions, we get a global idea about what priorities should we focus on. Once you're in the market with your technology and you depend on your partner, it also brings a lot of uncertainties in regards to launches and other projects. Something gets delayed, something gets moved. We have weekly and bi-weekly team cross-alignments and planning sessions, where we figure out whether something is still urgent. Whether we launch this partnership announcement this time or we postpone it again, because there's a delay. There's a product, you make a new release. The new release has a bug in one of the operating systems, so you have to fix it again. Something gets pushed forward. You can't make a solid five-year plan and go for it. That's why we divide it by year and quarter. You have the option to adjust something within the quarterly period and then the two-week period. We look back at the sprint, plan the next one. When the quarter ends, we look back at the quarter. We check whether the next quarter's plans still align with the previous one. Then there's the year, the end of the year. Of course, there is a bigger five-year goal that we would like to achieve, but we still stick with these stages.What I find cool about SoundID is that you're a local company from Riga, but you work with sound engineers all over the world. How do you catch up with the global rhythm? How do you sense what your audience is feeling, thinking and doing right now all over the world, while you're here?We do a lot of monitoring of what is happening out there, the current trends. We also have a considerable client base that provides us with feedback.Does that mean questionnaires, newsletters?A bit of everything. We also have a review site. Consumer product mostly gets reviewed in the App Store or Google Play, but the pro product gets feedback on a special site where all reviews are gathered. You're able to respond quickly, if you see several people troubleshooting something. People post a lot on social media. We have a support centre in our website, where you can submit a ticket with your problem, which then gets solved. In that sense you can hear all these things. Our clients write us, they share information. We have a nice partnership with several influencers.Influencer marketing is still effective?It is. In our industry, word of mouth and PR is quite effective. These are things we can do. We can't afford to do a brand awareness campaign in America. That's extremely expensive. And do we even need that? In the professional world it's a very niche audience which you can find elsewhere, but we're not yet ready for the consumer audience. Our brand will flourish only once we have partners. We can't do it alone, because we require integrations in the partner's products. It can mean various verticals like headphone manufacturers, telephone ecosystems, cars or speakers. We can achieve that only once we're joined by Netflix, Apple TV or Bose headphone manufacturer or Apple, because we can't manage that alone. We're having negotiations, and I can't name any names to make this conversation more impressive, but I can say that we've been heard and the information known to us really warms our heart. We're happy the process is moving forward. And the process is long. Often enough, if you want to integrate your technology in a car, it can sometimes take even five years. From the moment you begin negotiations until the end of the production process. It involves numerous chains of logistics, like the chipset manufacturer, other parts. Consequently, it turns into a really, really long process. With an app, you can reach somebody quickly, but in this case, you need a partner.How can you make yourself be heard by the top brands you mentioned? You have to write to them, make them hear you and respond to you, then integrate your product.What are they all interested in? They're interested in data. We're a data and research company according to our DNA. We have a large amount of data, we've done extensive research. I'm talking about personalization. We've done about 3 million AB tests. On Google Play, we have more than half a million app downloads. During all this period, we've measured about 67 thousand speaker sets in studios. These are just some examples I'm mentioning. We've also tested 5000 different headphones. These numbers are large. First of all, we see that we can offer them data. Secondly, we have a push and pull marketing strategy as we call it. The idea is to build a relationship and learn from the end listeners, so you can provide this information to your business-to-business partner. What are they interested in? Whether someone even needs it. We build a relationship with the end listener, so we can show our partner that the listener wants the product and considers it to be something good. As I mentioned before, this isn't a must-have product. You have to create the interest, make it necessary. The client wants it to be “click, click, boom”. He won't buy our product in its current set-up, won't even use it for free, because the path to get there is too long. We have now polished the android app, which now allows you to hear a playback. To have a full experience that allows you to use your iPhone with any kind of headphones is not doable unless there is a small button on the Spotify or Apple TV interface. It's like a cat and mouse game. You have to interact with the end audience, you need app downloads. You have to learn to communicate, because does anybody understand what you're saying, when you call it a “personalized sound”? Or do you call it “improving your sound”? Maybe “your perfect sound”? We're learning about the messaging. We're learning how to improve the user experience in the app, because it itself will be integrated. That's what we do as our homework. At the same time, we're gathering an extensive amount of data and information about what people like or don't like, what are the most popular preferences. What curves are popular, maybe smiley faces. We have that information and that's what we can offer to them, because they need data and we have that. You're able to approach them in that sense. You juggle with several things. You create directly targeted campaigns for one person on LinkedIn, however LinkedIn doesn't yet allow targeting one person, but you can target location. If you know where the headquarters of a specific company are located, you buy that one column. We've come up with all sorts of ideas. The idea is to implement a very specific targeting. When we go to expositions, we can't afford to just set up a stand. If there's a month left before the exposition and you haven't booked ten important conversations, you just don't go and don't waste your time. You prepare for something else. It involves a lot of micro-managing. Sometimes it feels like you're make these class A visuals so that, when you do get that big partner, you're already for it. There's a pile of copy versions you can use, there are visual examples. It's something new even for them. It's a new segment for the music audio industry. Until now, one block was for sound enhancement companies that just improve the sound. There was no algorithm or level optimization, just some companies saying they have the best sound. Personalized sound is a completely new concept. We're attempting to create a revolution in the industry. When we started the rebranding process, we realized that this is the moment when various popular additional services are appearing on the market, like BankID, Apply Pay, Smart-ID. We realized that we too can offer something like that, but in the way of sound, regardless of where you're going and what you're listening to.Let's image you had to join a start-up or a brand at an earlier stage, where you had even more limited resources, time and budget. Internet allows you to reach any person all over the world, and there are various channels of communication, like TikTok, Instagram, your website etc. How to not get lost in all that? Where would you begin, how much and how often? What is the most efficient way to approach your audience at the beginning of the road?You have to understand what exactly is your audience? It's very important and something a lot of people forget. They don't know who their client is and what is this need of theirs that they're trying to resolve. There's always a need that gets resolved with a product. In the beginning, you basically just fumble about. I can share what I've been told about the early stages of Sonarworks. Back when Sonarworks didn't even have a product, the cofounders figured out that they should mostly focus on their English-speaking audience, since you don't have the money to simultaneously communicate with Asia and other places, where you have to consider other languages and cultural peculiarities, and you have to communicate obvious things in a completely different manner than you're used to. Instead, you focus on the narrowest client base. In their case, they went where the client is at. It's obvious that the epicentre of music recording industry is Los Angeles. It's not Riga, unfortunately. Even in the scale of Europe. They started looking for contacts and travelled around. You have to test out the concept and the technology to see if somebody even needs it, if it works. They went to the USA with a primitive demo set-up. Through Facebook friends they found their first leads from the music industry who listened to them. They talked among them, mentioned some other engineer they knew, who also should listen to it. From one apartment to a garage to a studio. In the beginning, you just listen to what your client has to say and what he actually needs, what's their struggle. You get the proof of concept that, yes, it indeed is a problem, instead of just imagining that it is a problem, when no one out there actually needs your product and it solves nothing. Many suffer a disappointment, because they didn't do their first homework. This could be the take-away from that.Let's talk a bit about rebranding. You have had various experiences with rebranding. What's the decisive moment when a company should consider rebranding, fine-tuning or upgrading? When you know you should make some changes and improvements, what questions should you ask yourself to understand what you actually need?Rebranding usually is the answer when you hit a dead end. You realize that this no longer works. Or the media world switches from television to digital environment. Those are the moments when you realize that your current identity has become outdated and that you have to change something. Or you might have a completely new product for a new audience, therefore you require a new, fresh face. The reasons vary. You just get the process going. In none of these stages have I expected that an agency would serve everything on a platter and ready to go. You're basically looking for a partner who will be by your side during this. You can't do it alone. Whether it's a corporation or a sales-oriented company or a product-driven company, it's a collaboration. It's not like you can write a brief, drop it off and forget about it. It involves very intense work. When we were going through the relaunch of Zelta Zivtiņa and I was responsible for everything from A to Z, I realized that the year was ex  tremely intense. You monitor the data, you see some readings going down. Why are they going down? You look for the problem and do a deep analysis. It's not about creative pictures and choosing what looks the prettiest and trendiest. It involves plenty of analytics and data. It's about strategy of whether to take the other path or no. It means an in-depth study of your competitors and territories. Discovering which areas are already taken. Checking whether an opportunity also represents a need. It's quite a long process. If talk about the launch of SoundID, the initial insight for why we even did that, when we had the True-Fi product for our listeners. Why should we create SoundID? We realized that the studio sound we offer to engineers and then also to listeners represents a miniscule niche part of the audience, since this sound is popular among geeky audiophiles, but not all of them. Part of them still want that “click, click, boom” feeling without the need to adjust their equalizer. We realized that, if we want to go global and set a new standard among the audience, we have to go further. We have to approach the listener of music, and that market is huge. And it goes past the listeners, there's also the gaming world, movies. The market is really huge. The first insight from our data was that one sound does not fit all. Then we realized that everyone has their own taste, everyone has both different devices and hearing ability. We possess a technology that's able to align all that. We checked out what's going on in the market. We saw that specific components are already taken. Some start-ups are already working on hearing correction. There are companies in the market working on sound enhancement. Then we realized that we don't actually fit in any of these categories, we're a completely new category. We combine sound levels, creating a unique sound profile. The industry is aiming to provide more effortless services to people. There also are these ecosystems of several devices that you like. You shouldn't have to make adjustments every time you get home, get in the car or put on your headphones. You should be able to do one test that establishes your personal sound, your curve, which then follows you everywhere. At that moment we realized that, if we want to reach this audience, which is a wide range of music listeners, we can't just show them curves. Who's able to read curves? That won't do. We knew we had to think outside the box a bit. We then sat down with the agency after doing our own homework. We had data and evidence from several studies, indicating that people do make different choices. We approached the research part really carefully, we studied the competitors, the market. We realized that we want to deliver this complex concept of three-level sound optimization, but do it lightly. A two-minute A/B test, which then gives you your profile. We decided to not show any curves, but to focus on personalization. During this process we came up with a unique pattern, which is unique to everybody. There are no two identical profiles. They are unique, based on the information that your profile provides about you, based on your hearing ability, your personal preferences and your device.What you are telling me is very interesting from the technical viewpoint, but why was it important at that moment to change and improve the brand's visual language?The most important aspect in that whole stage was that you realize you want to reach vast masses of people, but you can't do it alone. You will most likely have to team up with class A companies. That's when you realize that your current identity won't be able to follow that. We had to realize that we most likely could become “Powered by” or “SoundID technology”. We primarily decided that we won't apply white label strategy, because we want to take the most challenging route, which was one taken by Dolby, Intel and Gore-Tex, namely, technologies that don't live by themselves, but are integrated in another body like a computer or a Columbia jacket. You've chosen the strategy of ingredient marketing or ingredient product. You're incorporated as a technology, but, as I mentioned, it's really hard, because you have to juggle with both sides. You have to be recognizable in the consumer audience and also have to get some partners. We realized that the brand has to be universally scalable. Even when it comes to such detail as an icon, it has to be able to take up a 16-pixel spot in the corner of the desktop. It has to be simple, also descriptive, meaning, it describes what it is. You could've used “clang” or “squash”, just a symbol of sound. It also integrates beautifully with partners. The hardest part, when creating a brand, was to simultaneously consider how you will look like in an Android phone or on a poster, when an A-list celebrity's newest album is launched. How will you look next to something else? We're not in a place where we could launch a worldwide brand recognition campaign. If we do get there, it will hopefully be as the sound under some popular streaming service just like Dolby managed to do that. Meaning, sound provided by SoundID. If we're allowed and given the chance to create a SoundID poster, then it would say below that it's only available for Netflix clients. You realize you have to take two routes. We do a lot of the respective tasks and learn, and go to the partners with our homework already done. We play with visuals, so we're also able to show it to them. This is a completely new technology for them too, so it's important to demonstrate how to show it, how to talk about it, how to visualize it. Our goal was to create a brand that's not too aggressive on its own, like red and whatnot. To enable it to cohabitate with other brands worldwide. One task was the name, the second was the visual look. While doing our homework, we took Spotify's latest advert and inserted our logo to see how they look together. Or we wrote a press release that we in collaboration with Adele and Apple TV are releasing an album, by providing music that the artist has always wished you could hear, using your own preferences. You play around with visuals and possible names, since the product naming architecture is quite complex. You have to complete many small tasks. During the process, we went through several various versions. We had quite the exercise for about half a year before we came up with our final version.It's important to note, that rebranding isn't just about creating a pretty presentation or to change the logo on your homepage. The most important part is the implementation.For those who will attempt to take over the market of China and the USA, even such nuance as the name pays a big role. I still remember how hard it was. Not to mention domains and such. For example, if you want to provide your technology to some big Chinese company or device manufacturer, they focus a lot on the fact whether you have a trademark symbol. You have to register the brand and the symbol. We had created a wonderful logo, we all loved it and wanted to move forward with it. There are various tools that help you check whether the logo is not already in use in the territories you wish to enter. That symbol was used by some medicine in China. It was identical. It was a sharp S symbol, created from geometrical shapes. You know you'll never get a trademark over there because it's a “copy+paste” of something already available in their market. That really prolonged the process. One thing is to think of something, but then you realize it doesn't work in the specific market. From our partners in China, we know how important it is for them to have the “TM” next to a logo. For us it's not so popular, but in their market having a trademark is the way to go. It's all serious. That road wasn't easy. At that moment you realize you've already gotten attached to that logo, it's dear to your heart, you've visualized various versions, but that you have no choice but to look for something new. And you start everything from ground up. Today everyone wants their logo to be iconic, for it to be noticeable and memorable. Once you set the limit of 16 pixels, you know you don't have that many choices. Your options to create something unique that will be scalable to such small size are limited. It was extremely challenging. One might think, oh, it's just a name and a logo. In reality, we had an Excel file with 400 potential names. You like one name, but you can't get the domain, and then there's a problem with the logo. There are no experts in Latvia who could help you. My colleague helped with the legal part, by calling a Swiss company that helped verify whether this can actually be checked. The road of creating a global consumer product is not that easy. There are patents, technologies, trademark, you go by the book.There's also the creative aspect.Of course, there's the creative part too. We don't want Anttila catalogue type of models, we have people with personalities. We don't have the money to do fancy photo sessions, but then you look at stock photos and get the stock feeling, which you don't want either. I think we've done well visually with the given toolbox. It warms my heart to see it blossoming. And I call the visual creators about how excited I am about the photoshoot they did, and you can see that they like the way we work with them. From time to time in the design process you get the urge to push for something more stylish, but then again you have to maintain the boundary of what you have created. You have to give it the chance to live through its cycle, instead of trying to change it in the process and improvise from scratch. I'm a bit like a brand guardian. When you've lived through the creation of the brand and an agency or a freelancer, you're working with suggests changing something, you realize that, no, the basis is already there. You have many options, where to improvise. You've been given a sandbox, you can do whatever you want, but many do want to step out of the given boundaries.Maintain consistency really is a big task. You mentioned the brand identity toolbox that you receive once the rebranding is complete, and then you implement it in your daily life. What should a good brand identity toolbox contain that would allow it to be implemented successfully?There are the basic elements. Your logo or icon, basic things like colours, typography, logo, icon. I always look for the fifth element as I call it. Something that makes you unique. In our case it's the pattern, which communicates the curve in a different manner and provides character. But you have to respect the boundary. We created a pattern that everyone really liked, but then we started communicating it and things started to drift. The pattern, this unique element was being overused. It showed up on forms, on Excel sheets or next to every picture. That's when you realize it's too much. If it's the fifth element to your brand, it's face, then you should only use it for things it was designed for. If it's designed to represent sound personalization, then you should use it only when discussing it. The visual complements the copy and the other way around. If it gets worn out, it will start to feel as a wallpaper, a decoration. It's important to not overwork the identity.That's a very good point. To not overwork the identity.I'm very pleased that we've been noticed in the industry, our visual identity has been noticed. We've heard good words about our packaging, website and visual identity not only from representatives of the industry, but also from media, writing a release about our product and devoting a whole paragraph to our top-notch visual identity. That really warms my heart.It's a sound-driven, technical product, but the visual part is also significant.Of course, just like everywhere else.Great. Thank you.

M: Hi Artūrs, thank you for coming! Could you please briefly describe what Magebit is about, how you started Magebit, which is your main company, your main business, what you do and how it all started?A: Yes, hi Miķelis! My name is Artūrs, long time ago, I used to be a programmer, and I programmed for E-commerce. Together with my colleague Kristaps, co-founder Kristaps, we made Magebit, we did the programming ourselves. Then it was not enough, we needed more hands on the deck, we started hiring additional people, additional positions became vacant, we offered additional services. And now it's been 8 years already. Now we have close to hundred employees, all working from here, Riga. M: You said that pretty much all of your employees are based here in Riga yet your clients are mostly from outside of Latvia. A: Yes, our client portfolio is a global one. We have many clients from Latvia, many from the USA, the the Middle East, some from South America, Australia, and various places. Yet our mega market is mainly Europe, all of Europe and also the USA. About our employees – it's mainly people from Latvia yet during the last couple of years, especially during the last year, we are working on providing 24/7 support, and it's easier to do if people work across multiple time zones, that's why we also have an employee from Taiwan so that we can have this big time difference and we could provide close to 24/7 support without introducing night shifts. M: OK that probably means that for your E-commerce clients this 24/7 support is rather critical. A: It could be critical but it's not that they necessarily need it all the time, it's not like all the sites we have built come crashing down all the time; yet the moment our client runs a campaign, let's say a campaign in a different time zone when it's daytime for them and nighttime for us then if something happens, it just makes sense that they need somebody to solve things. And it's great that with campaigns, you can plans things ahead of time so that 24/7 support would be available, and that people would be working non-stop, monitoring the site. Yet at the same time some clients have very busy sites and every hour costs a lot for them, therefore, they simply need a reliable service that maybe doesn't react immediatelybut let's say within an hour's time and can fix stuff or at least help. M: E-commerce is a very broad concept; it could be both a small e-commerce shop or a large multi-million online store. Who is Magebit's client? Who do you work with? A: We mainly work with midsize companies and up. Even though at the beginning we were working with the smallest of companies, as we grew also grew the size of our clients; now even our processes and everything else is completely incompatible with small companies whose main concern is the cost aspect - if you have just started out, the cost aspect is very important to you. Even when improving your conversion rate by just few percent and if it's costing you a fortune, it just simply doesn't make sense, especially if your client base is not that big to earn back your investment within the nearest future. That's why our main focus here at Magebit is mid-markets with established businesses that want to develop and maintain their internet shops, and also big companies that need something very complicated or they just need the same old 24/7 support or a nice, fixed ongoing team of people that will be able to build, to develop in a the long term, let's say for some five years. M: Well, let's just say that between a mid-size company in Latvia and a mid-size company in the USA, there's a huge difference. What's a mid-size company, according to you? A: I would say there's no revenue like this or number of employees like that; it's more about whether the company is ready to invest in their internet shop or maybe they just want the internet shop to be there but don't want us to be changing anything. Because if the company isn't ready to invest or maybe it's not even to their advantage at the time to invest in the development of their internet shop, then most likely it's not even our client. It also costs us money to maintain such idle clients, and yes, such ROI would not reflect positively at either end. At the same time, if a small start-up with funding of sorts with big ideas, willing to make a quality product, would get our attention even if they weren't a mid-size or established company, they could be our client because they are ready to invest and we are ready to make working, professional product that they could use to accelerate their growth. We don't have a certain industry or country or turnover defined. We are more interested in the company's view on the online environment, their readiness to invest, and how serious they are about it. Is it like “you go and do whatever, we don't even care to know,” or they have more of a “hands-on” approach - here we have a budget of sorts, we have this vision, we have these goals - then we can work them. M: If we could divide companies into these three major groups - really small E-commerce companies, mid-size and bigger companies - could you give specific advice to these three groups, what to avoid at each stage when you are just starting and its only your hobby when you have had your first turnover of sorts, and you are trying to have a bigger store, and you want to grow it into a serious business? A: During the first phases, let's say during the first two categories that you mentioned, the cash flow is really important so that the company would be able just to exist because there will be bumps along the road. And also, one should focus on fast implementation, nothing too complicated, and no big processes. Difference between a smaller and a bigger company - if you are a small company, if you decide to pivot today, let's say you go from socks to hats, there's no big damage if you change things up and continue with something that works for you. At the same time, if you are a big company like us right now with around a hundred employees like we have now; if we said one day that enough was enough, from now on, we were making mobile apps, yet our work structure was totally different, there would be huge collateral damage, people wouldn't be happy; we would have to totally rework all the processes. So, yes, one thing to consider is cash flow; the other is your focus - either you focus on making a quick buck I definitely do not suggest doing this because it usually doesn't work. In my experience, for as long as I am making something, I need to make sure that I have passion for what I do, I have some knowledge, yet there will never be enough knowledge, but at the same time, if you have the passion then acquiring the lacking knowledge will not be a burden, it will be a lot simpler. I also think it will feel a bit nicer to solve these problems if the sphere in which you are operating or which is close to or liked by you, or you are just simply curious about the sphere. When speaking about bigger companies, it is important to do the quality jobs right away since big companies also may want to focus on quick implementation but it might happen that you have a big customer base, and you might be trying to continuously implement things that do not entirely work. Let's say for 5% of users, the new features do not work, and all the time, returning customers are facing the same problem over and over again in various places; the customer becomes frustrated, and might start looking for a new place to go. Therefore, to companies, the quality matters, maybe the 1% bigger conversion rate or 1% fewer problems for specific iPhone users, iPhone 12 users to eliminate the problem, it may mean a lot to them in terms of customer experience and in general. Let's say there's a checkout problem, checkout for a sock shop doesn't work and there are five people, and none of them have been on the device before - all in all you don't really lose any money. But if you are Amazon and 0.5% of your users experience problems, then it's a really big volume that turns into potentially lost sales. Then it makes sense for you to be spending a lot of money on solving this complicated, specific problem. M: You mentioned Amazon - in your experience how much you would suggest focusing on the big, existing platforms that come with their own rules, own audience, and own dictatorship or rather focus on building and developing one's own E-commerce platform? A: Neither one is just good or bad; those are different sales channels. It depends on the product, on the company's vision of how they want to develop. Let's say you have this Riga brand - if you want to, if your company's vision now is to make mass sales of mugs with that inscription, Amazone might be a very good choice, because they have this huge customer pool and potentially it's rather simple to ship everything, sell on a trustworthy platform. Yet if you wish to build a brand directly for a consumer, then it makes sense to make your own site that you can develop, where you build loyalty, where you make a different shopping experience for the buyer. It's not like buying a new TV set and then just adding a mug to your shopping cart. It's that I specifically want your mug, I want your brand. M: I think it's a good subject matter that you just touched upon about a brand in an E-commerce environment because in recent years, two big directions have developed. One is that you are building your brand in E-commerce in the long term. The other is the so-called performance-based when through ads that might be louder, more specific, and more shrieking, you get faster sales results but most of the time it happens at the expense of the fact that your brand isn't developing as elegantly and smartly as before. How do you see this balance between these two things, between building your brand in the long term and these ad materials yielding quick sales results? A: It's similar to what I said before about making a quick buck - I never thought it was an entirely good strategy. You might play around with a couple of emotional triggers, trying to get more sales in a while, building that initial customer base. But it all takes away from a more distant, bigger goal. The client should feel safe, but if a client makes a purchase and right after that thinks to himself - sh*t, I was emotionally blackmailed into buying because it said ‘only one left' and ‘15 people looking at this product. And then it starts impacting your brand, they might not want to buy from you the next time if they are not on your website and if they don't have these emotional triggers anymore. So, in the long term I would certainly suggest focusing on results, building your brand, and building customer loyalty. If you are making those E-commerce shops, there's a difference whether you are just offering a bare minimum warranty or you are going the extra mile. In my experience, the extra mile is always more pleasant, those customers will be more likely to return, maybe it won't bring in extra money at that point, it might actually create loss because there would be more refunds, but in the long run, those customers will actually come back because they know that when buying at Amazone the refund term is this, but if they come to buy at my site where I can offer them absolutely more, where I can build a better experience for them, the refund policy is something entirely different. M: That's a good point you mentioned that a brand in an E-commerce environment is not only about colors and logos and how it all looks, but what promises a customer receives, how long is delivery, and what's the return policy. What else besides these things are points to consider that make a brand a strong brand in E-commerce beyond just purely visual image? A: All experience, all experience from the moment I decided to google your brand to the moment I throw that product out in the garbage bin and everything in between. It can be a live chat where they answer all your questions or shipping, or maybe a post office delivers your package, and it's damaged and wrapped in a plastic bubble wrap, or the package is nicely delivered by a courier, the package isn't damaged, and then you open the package, and it is a whole unboxing experience. Look at Apple, there are so many products that fall into a premium pricing category because the experience they offer is great. The moment a person steps into their store, everything is clean, and nice and then they go home and open the package, and that unboxing is a continuation of the experience at the store. People to whom it is important, they will notice and they will appreciate it. M: Switching from the big Magebit E-commerce business that is your main trade, I know that you also have a number of side projects, hobby projects that you work on in your spare time. A: A hobby, a side project - that describes it pretty well. M: At the beginning of this year, you launched a project by the name of Eloking. A: Yes, I did. M: Could you please briefly describe what it's about? A: Yes, sure! For the longest time, I was looking for ways to get more involved with the export industry. Computer games have always been close to my heart, I grew up on Counter-Strike and similar games. And then I simply came up with the idea of Eloking since I was interested in that, it was my hobby, I really wanted to go into coding myself again. That's how it got started, I wanted to make a sort of Uber for E-sports where you can get yourself a professional, an E-sports coach within a couple of clicks who would help you to get better at the game of your choice or maybe help you win the N-Season awards by getting your ratings up. M: If I understand it correctly, it's a platform where coaches meet players who want to pump up their ratings at a specific game. A: Yes, but they are not necessarily just coaches, they are mostly professional gamers from all over the world. You just simply choose the game, let's say, League of Legends, and you choose a service - maybe you want to get a higher rank because the season is coming to a close and you want to receive N-Season Awards. Or you may choose a two-hour coaching with a specific champion because you want to learn how to play better. And it is a similar concept to Uber, which is a marketplace with lots of people who are doing it anyway. We provide customers with a simple calculator, they make an order, they get directly connected with the respective person and they themselves make it all happen. It was my take on things that I wanted to slip into export while simultaneously doing business. M: You started at the beginning of this year, now almost 12 months have passed by. What are the initial results, and what have you been able to achieve so far? A: After some three months, we spent actively drawing and planning, and also, we were able to recruit an investor from the USA. We launched everything in January, and we had ads running immediately while simultaneously launching three games. M: What were your plans and approach, and how you got your message across once you launched the project, which became available then? Did you have paid ads or used some other channels so that people could find out about you? A: At first, we launched the platform itself and then we onboarded our people who could fulfill the orders. I knew somebody who worked with Google ads then after doing market research, finding out the keywords and competitors, I sent all the information to this company so that they would design Google ads specifically for us and we would get some clients. Plus, we did an SAT-based retargeting for those who already had visited our page, and almost right away, we started working on some SEO. SEO is a long-term thing and still up to this date, even though we have had some success, it's not our main driver. M: What is your main driver? A: At this point - paid ads. It's OK, yet we have a huge client retention rate in this sphere; this email marketing is really important to us, and experience is important to us, also good reviews. Yes, and it actually makes sense for us to lose some money on the first purchase if that buyer comes back to us like three more times. M: I saw that when keying in Eloking into Google browser right after your page, a link to Trustpilot comes up. Is that something you have built intentionally? What were you after? A: Yes, it was done intentionally since this type of service comes from a grey area - some people think it's great, they buy it, and then some other people kind of condemn it because they think it damages competitive integrity. Our idea was that we didn't want to convince everybody that that's the thing to do now. We were more about the fact that this type of community is already available, and we wanted to improve it since most of the sites and competitors offer a rather bad experience, refunds were practically non-existent, and clients often times got screwed over. Our approach was that we wanted to make something good. The reviews help us to get clients that had been screwed over or their experience hadn't been smooth on other platforms. The client comes to us, we talk to them on a live chat, they love everything, they look us up on Trustpilot, everything is perfect, super and they become our clients, long-term clients, and we get to work with them. M: Did you make a specific point asking people for references? Or what's your procedure why a person would want to leave a review? A: At first, we activated a Trustpilot feature where they send an automatic email to our clients asking for a review yet many people were too lazy to do that or didn't want to do that - I have made my order, I am done, thank you! What we did then was we asked those who service the orders to ask the clients to leave a review and they would get some sort of bonus for that. Also, they shouldn't necessarily convince the clients to leave only 5-star reviews or else. We encourage the boosters and coaches to leave reviews. They benefit from that. For example, they are having their coaching session and they are doing their thing and then at the end of the call they might say: “Hey, I really enjoyed our session together! I would really appreciate it if you could leave a review and mention my name!” That is more effective that any kind of email. M: How do you find these service providers, how you onboard them, how you verify them? A: The process is actually a rather complicated and long one but the fact is that this industry has a life of its own and it's not like we can hardly find anybody who would like to work with us. We just simply made a ‘Jobs' page. We had already been in contact with the initial base. But the moment we launched ads, the clients who searched for us could find us; the same way our coaches found us or people searching for jobs. And there are more of them than we have a demand for actually. At the moment we have some 4-5 K people on stand-by who would love to come and work. We haven't even gotten back to them yet saying that we would like to work with them, they have just applied. And the moment we will see that we need help with a specific region, specific game then we will get back to a specific group of people. M: Why are you interested in E-sports? Do you see it as a category that will develop within the next years or it's more of a personal hobby of yours? A: It is a personal hobby and I have been involved with that already since my school years, I have seen it all developing, I know what Counter-Strike or League of Legends were like 15 plus years ago and what it's like now; you can't really compare the two. The prize pools they have, the overflowing arenas. It's all becoming more and more popular also in Europe - it might seem that Counter-Strike is just a little game. Yet there's a major tournament being organized, huge arenas filled. The president of France announced that they are hosting a Counter-Strike tournament, and that shows that it ‘ain't no silly little game no mo'. The same with Candy Crash - a seemingly little game yet it's an enormous business actually. M: You have many ideas, you have your main business, you have Eloking, you have Star Registration. How do you filter your ideas, how you choose where to invest yourself for the next three months or which ones you just write down or let pass by altogether? A: Well, one of the aspects I always consider is time. Right now, I have a super idea, and most likely I won't even touch it because I don't have the time for that. Because Magebit alone is more than just 9 to 5 for me because the schedule there just doesn't fit the bill, but that's my primary job, and I have to be involved there on a full-time basis as a minimum. The stars and the Eloking, that's something to do after work, in my spare time - that's why in my side businesses, I always have a person who can deal with things and solve them. For example, in Star Registration, I have a co-founder Kristaps, and I have another co-founder, also called Artūrs, with whom we work together. The other Artūrs is in charge of the day-to-day operations, and then Kristaps and I, take turns jumping in - at one point, one of us works on SEO, then the other at some other time; then next time, we jump into something else. And it's not an ongoing full-time job, it really is a side project for us as it should be. M: In Magebit and in your other projects, your main audience is clients outside of Latvia; even though your office is here, your base is here, you work from here. What are the main arguments, how do you sell yourself and Latvia when you speak to people outside? Why would it be worth their while to cooperate with a company here, in Latvia? What are the values and benefits of working and building a business in this region? A: It depends on what we are selling. If we are selling Magebit services B2B, we lead with the fact that we have something like Eastern European pricing for Northern European quality. And it's a great combo, plus we are in Europe, which means we have laws and other things developed. Our prices are not as high since we are not in Sweden, for example, where the cost of living is higher. And if we are trying to sell B2C, for example, with Star Registration, the customers there don't really care where you do the shipping, all they care about is whether they can get the product fast, whether it's of good quality and whether their whole experience is good. If you can ensure those three then in general, it doesn't really matter whether your LLC is registered in Romania, Latvia, or the USA. M: What awaits Magebit in the future, where do you see yourselves within the next two, four, or five years? How are you going to develop? A: We want to grow into big clients that are searching us out themselves. Right now, we have a lot of word by mouth, and we have a lot of mid-size clients coming in the door, and we work with them. And then time to time, we have some Fortune 500 companies and some big brands to work with. And we would like to keep that balance between mid-size and big clients, yet we would also like to have more of the big clients. And also, we would like to work with some more complicated implementations since dealing with the big clients isn't always as pleasant as they usually have very limited brand guidelines on how everything should look, what fonts can be used, etc. Yet, in terms of technology, they often have an interesting approach since they have many sub-companies and related companies on very many levels. Then they need to observe compliance with integrating other systems. I would like to have the best of both worlds where we work with mid-size entrepreneurs who want to invest in their development where we can express ourselves with visual design; also, I want to work with big companies who, first of all, have a great brand, great case study, and secondly that pose a technological challenge to our best programmers. M: This type of challenge always helps to maintain some level of hunger. Thank you for coming and for your time! A: Yes, thank you!

My name is Miķelis Baštiks and this is Asketic Podcast where we talk about design and branding. This time we're here with brand strategist Edgars Pētersons and we will discuss why it's important to create one clear association with a brand and why Latvian companies need to be more shameless in order to achieve global success.There are trends, cultural characteristics, timeless things that are fundamental truths in most countries of the Western world. Then there are micro-cultural, local cultural characteristics. When you create a brand platform, can you rely on these fundamental things or do you have to focus more on micro-trends in the local context?The thing that differs from country to country or even from region to region in bigger countries is the sense of humour. If you attempt to define your brand's form of expression as funny and humorous, it can quickly go very wrong. I was once working on a Baltic campaign. In Latvia, everyone found it funny, but no one got the joke in Lithuania. That's one aspect you should be careful with. A reference to the brand's origin is a thing that works, for Europe in general. Declaring you're from Europe provides you with a mark of quality. Then there are certain individual associations for each country. Scandinavian design, German quality etc. An opinion in regards to Latvia and the Baltic region is slowly forming in certain markets, namely, that people, ingredients, processes here are closer to nature, ecological. Foreign businesses associate us with being innovative with wood. That's still an amorphous association. It depends on the category. As I recently discussed with students, there are categories where you have to maintain an artificially high pricing. If you buy sparkling wine for 8 euros, you won't associate it with something good. The same goes for design. I had a discussion with Edgars Zvirgzdiņš, it was around ten years ago. I said to him, look, there are so many ugly signboards on Čaka Street. We could ask designers to lend their hand and remake them. In response he asked me if I believe their usual customers would continue to shop in there. I didn't think so. There are people who would much rather spend that same money at the market, even though you could find those items for a lesser price at fast fashion stores, where the quality is the same, but the stores, the design and communication looks too good, therefore it gives a signal of being too expensive and not being meant for me. The trend that always works is empathy. If you find something current, important, interesting and attractive for your audience, then you have to signal that same thing.Seth Godin has said the same thing as you. He has a saying, “You can't be seen until you learn to see”. There's that same empathy.In various workshops, I've shown a bottle with no label or instructions, and then I ask them what it is and they interpret it. And then I show a bottle of “Absolut” with no label, and everyone knows what it is. The brand is in your head, it's what you think about it. You reflect on this brand, based on what knowledge you have, therefore, in order to create a successful brand, you have to find the points of contact, namely, the person's knowledge, associations, and have to try to find ways of connecting to them. The person perceives this brand, based on something they intuitively know, understand and are conscious of, and not based on some new information you provide.You take the matrix that they understand and change only so little that it's something new, instead of making something completely different.I believe that striving for originality as an end in itself is a self-sabotage in the creative industries. Creativity quite often can mean taking an existing cliché and adding something interesting or turning it around. For example, if you have such consumer product as potato chips and you create an extremely ascetic design for it, with Sans Serif font and all the rest, while targeting teens or even kids, then my hypothesis is that it won't be seen as an affordable consumer product. It will sit lonely on the shelf, while all the other products with flashy packages with 3D designs will sell out.Wouldn't it seem that teenagers are looking for something opposite to the mainstream?Let's not dissect this particular example too much. The needs and perceptions of the young people are changing, of course. Many teens are focusing more on health and sustainability and are much more responsible than their previous generations. We once did a study on environmental issues and the youth. Ideologically everything is fine, but when it clashes with economical issues, namely, how much what costs, then it is what it is.When it comes to teenagers, it's interesting to think about the balance between wanting to belong to a group and signal with certain brands and also wanting to be different from the previous generation. How can one manoeuvre among this fragility of wanting to belong and to be different at the same time? How can you create the perfect brand and design for this?The smaller markets often face the biggest challenge. You might belong to a global movement or sub-culture, but you actually represent only about 10 people in Latvia. Let's say you're a brand that operates only regionally in Latvia and targets the youth, but these young people might be divided into countless sub-cultures, which can be reached by global businesses due to their global scale, thus justifying a worthwhile investment, since these groups amount to hundreds, thousands and millions of people, however, for a local brand, operating only Latvia, this group might represent only a few tens or few hundreds of people, so you have to find the arithmetic average. Then you also have to consider your ability to stand out, to be challenging and different.You touched upon market research. Do you think it's worth it for a new start-up brand to invest a few thousand euros in market research? How else can you get qualitative data, so that you're not just basing everything on intuition?You have to think about research on several levels. We always begin cooperation with a client with the interview round. Many clients afterwards have called it their corporate psychotherapy. We identify the key persons within the company, their functions. By that I mean anyone from the owner to, as it was in case of “Virši”, the station manager or employees. In one-on-one setting or in groups of three or four we discuss the main issues in 90-minute interviews. From company's archaeology, their origins, up to their future ambitions and outlook towards their consumers. That itself is research. We don't associate it with research, because there's no research authority with 120 slides, tables and graphs, but it's research. It's essential in order to get to know this business, this brand, this company and this market. Based on that, you often realize what information you're missing and what additional research you require. Then you also have plenty of publicly available information from various sectors, sectoral associations publish various reports and studies locally and globally. Various consultation companies, like McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group, also provide publicly available information. The public sector carries out a lot of research, various ministries, European organizations etc., so you can find a lot of public information. You also can't dismiss your personal observations. The next question is whether you require personalized research, whether you need to purchase a secondary study that's already been completed. You have to assess it from the economic perspective. If you purchase an additional study for a bigger or smaller sum of money and become 5-10% more sure, so that you're 85% sure, instead of 75% sure, will these 10% be worth it? Not only in marketing, but also in investment and product development, you have to take into consideration the unknown. There's a risk premium that you have to pay. When you launch a new product, you can be 80% or 90% sure of its success, but then the unlikely 10% scenario happens and it doesn't succeed. The same applies to brands and identities. It's the question of how much you're willing to pay and whether it's worth it to pay. It's one thing if you're 95-100% sure, but another, as my lecturer once told me, there's such phenomenon as analysis paralysis. You sit there as a consultant or a client, there's a study after study, and then suddenly you're unable to make any decision, because you have too much information and you can't choose which direction to take. In various industries, whether it's beauty, underwear or something else, you can see plenty of brands, where you can sense that people like us, who understand how to create a cool brand and what the current trends are, have decided to create an underwear line. We too would be quite good at that. But that's a marketing project, and you have to wonder whether such project will continue existing in five, ten or fifteen years, because, if you're really burning for that category, that product, and go through the process with it, then probably “yes”, but if it's a classic marketing approach of “exploring an unoccupied market niche, doing everything by the book and seeing it succeed”, will you as a person who manages the brand still feel motivated and fully invested in that project in a year, two, three, four years?In a way, yes. On the other hand, almost every global celebrity has their own brand, even several. Kim now has a cosmetics line with an excellent design, she has several brands. MrBeast has chocolate. The Rock has energy drinks. Basically, every celebrity now has several brands. It even might be easier to create a successful brand, if you're a recognizable person and you find a manufacturer and create a brand, then if you're a manufacturer who has to create something from ground up.You should view these celebrities as corporations like “Procter & Gamble”, “Unilever” and all others. Here you have a recognizable brand, competence or means to keep adding new products to the product portfolio. You will most likely succeed, since you have the name that you lead with. And in their case, some things from the portfolio will die off within a year, something new will appear, it will be very fluid. Just like with corporations. You launch a new product line, it succeeds – great, it doesn't –you kill it. Remember, “Madara” had a drink line. There obviously was a hypothesis that the brand is strong enough and has suitable associations in order to introduce a new category, but the market said “no”. It went back to cosmetics. It's similar for the celebrities. Maybe it's obvious for MrBeast to offer chocolate. Maybe he will enter a new product category and get burnt.I believe that the audience of all these public personalities is very specific and that they have the same outlook through the content this person creates, so it's easier to position the new brand, since the audience is clear and already gathered in one place. While, if you're a chocolate manufacturer, you have to build the audience from zero. You have to find it first, you have to know how to approach it, how to gain respect within this group. It's much more difficult than when you already have an audience, few million followers on Instagram. You can just provide them anything they need. In the end, the audience is more important than the product. If you have audience, you can offer it anything.Yes, but there's one difference. If you're an organization and an institution, you're an organism that's already a group with employees, teams, decision-makers etc. This group also attracts like-minded people, hopefully. Each organization has its own rituals, its founding story etc. It's more immune to sudden changes in a positive way and represents a more predictable direction. Then you have this individual, a personality cult, where you have built everything upon yourself and your activities. Regardless of whether it's your public persona or it's really you. If we look at recent events, where something happens to your persona, in your head or in regards to your opinions, you change your beliefs or suddenly spill something that you've kept within you, some antisemitic remarks or something else. Then there's the question of whether your audience will follow the marasmus you begin to produce or it won't. And then one day you see someone like Ye or Kanye West go from a billionaire to someone who brands, product categories and audience turns away from.But is the audience really turning away?In this specific case, it's too early to tell. But there has been precedent, like the classic example of Nike and Tiger Woods.Time will tell, but my intuition tells me that the audience is putting more trust in the individual than the corporations. If you ask me, I think that the audience that surrounds this individual will most likely stand by this individual than by some corporation.Actually, people are the ones we put our trust in regardless of whether we talk about corporations or influencers. If you sense that there's a team standing behind the influencer or the persona, creating its content, but this influencer is just a talking mouth that you don't believe in, then people will turn away sooner or later. If you have a corporation with a strong leader or a founder who is open and talks with the audience, and you can see him and empathise with him, then you will trust the corporation. And, even you don't see the faces representing the corporation, but will sense its humanity and that there's a team behind it, let's say, you experience a positive interaction at the client service. I recently ordered a bicycle helmet, and I received an order confirmation with the text “somebody's going to look sharp soon”. That's an automated order confirmation with pre-generated text, but the way it was formulated textually and visually made me think that this company is cool. It raised the brand value and its credibility. So to answer the question of whether we trust the corporations or the influencers more, I have to say we trust the people, and there are people behind corporations as well. After talking with many companies, I've realized the missed opportunity of showcasing all the behind-the-scenes processes, the team, the people standing behind the product and the brand. In the modern world, where we talk about content marketing, there is content that can improve this damned search engine marketing, which is a mechanical, algorithmical process. By adding stories about employees, it not only cultivates human empathy, but also provides content that gives you an advantage in the digital environment.When you start a new business, you often begin with your product and who you will sell it to. In the context of our conversation, if you already have an audience, it's much easier to find a product that will sell, because you already closely feel your audience. If you're now starting a new company, shouldn't you start by growing your audience, by showing the backstage processes, and then this process might even lead you elsewhere. Instead of creating a product and knocking on every door, looking for someone who will finally buy it.There is a channel within brand identity creation that hasn't received enough credit, namely, sales channel and sales strategy. These personalities on YouTube and elsewhere, they already have a communication and sales channel on Instagram or elsewhere. They're able to lead the audience to their website, which is also their sales channel, with on click. When a start-up company requests a market strategy or identity, I always ask for their sales strategy, their sales channels, distribution models. There's a difference between being in a low-priced shop and a premium department store. Between only distributing through your online store and a third-party online store etc., because it also defines your audience and followers. It also defines how you have to look visually, your context. Companies need to have a more complex and technical approach to growing the audience. You have to consider the products, the team, your story, distribution channels, sales channels, communication etc. It's clear that the initial investments for a corporation or a start-up will be higher than if you already have a persona. You can't forget that this ready persona has invested its time, money and resources in creating oneself.If a start-up had limited time and budget, what three things should this start-up attempt to do as a minimum? What would provide the highest return value?It should start by defining four things that it's good at. What are the reasons we should trust you. Then you mirror these things by naming the benefits they provide to the end consumer, who should already be defined. That's from the business side of things. Secondly, you should define the brand's tonality and personality. That establishes how you behave and look in the market. There are practical things you define together with the design partners, namely, that we represent this specific colour or that these forms dominate in our design. It's important, especially in this digital age. If you have a signature colour and if you can make people associate you with this colour, then it's as simple as showing it in a banner, and people already know who's approaching them. Firstly, the competences, what you do plus how they translate into benefits. Secondly, all these communications, tonality and things that make you recognizable. Thirdly, no one has dismissed the thing called mission or vision, or brand promise. You should state in at least one or two sentences the direction you're taking, be it ideological or philosophical. It not only helps with external audiences, but also internally. It will establish the company's culture, for example, if we think about product development – what categories will or won't suit you. Here I don't mean that this mission, vision or brand promise has to be anything related to saving the world, because nowadays I find it to be extremely exaggerated. There's too much attention on the fact that brands spend a fraction of their profits to benefit environmental or social issues. They take a stand regarding certain ideology. I think it's totally okay, if you as a company just aim to create a good product. Let's say, I want to create a tasty lemonade of superb quality and, while making this lemonade, I don't want to save dolphins. I just want a tasty lemonade that people enjoy. It goes without saying that in the production process you shouldn't pollute the local river, you should pay all taxes and avoid corruption. Not all companies need to make that their central message, your overriding goal may also be that you want to live a good life, not that you want to right the wrong in this world.There are times when you want to develop a good product with good intentions, but, by speaking honestly and directly, you do more damage than those who don't care, but who are able to smoothly apply these self-praising statements with no scruples, even though their raw materials are questionable or their source is unknown, but you do the so-called “greenwashing”, where you put up all these statements, and the vast majority of people will not go into details and will instantly decide that these products are the same or that this one is even better since it states all these things. But you, by being honest and having good intentions, let others surpass you with their marketing. What should you do in this case?I would always like to hope that the good guy will win in the long-term.But, considering the performance marketing taking place on social media, where people hammer out limited offers, “click fast to get 3 for the cost of 1”, should you do that or rather build a proper brand in the long-term. I'd like to believe it would be better, but will it?When it comes to performance marketing, these tools become increasingly expensive, price per conversion becomes higher and higher. People with deeper pockets will most often outtrump you in performance marketing or by buying the best place on the store's shelf, or by price dumping etc. Your only hope is to create a proper story, a good product and to slowly grow a loyal audience in the long-term. The most successful marketing tool is word-of-mouth marketing, but that's a long-term process. If you're a start-up or a niche company, it's very important to land the right audience, which will remain loyal to you and will bring you forward, based on your resonance potential. Here we see the big problem in Latvia, this small market. If you, with your correct, decent approach, wish to remain that way, but the vast majority of the audience is price-sensitive and will buy 3-for-2 items, despite the fact that the statements about these products are bullshit, because they will feel like they've bought an equal item due to marketing, then you have to understand whether you a) have to keep up, by compromising your values and changing your setup, your category and your position, or b) have to make peace with the niche that you occupy in Latvia and accept that you won't grow any bigger. You might need to find new product categories in order to reach new people or secure the existing audience. Or c) you have to reach outside of the borders of Latvia, where, as we discussed, what is a small number in Latvia, can amount to a huge absolute number globally, since 1% of Riga audience is not the same as 1% of the audience of London or Stockholm.But then you have to reconsider if your values that work here, being local, home-made and natural, are of value to someone outside our borders. You have to be able to find a different brand story.Maybe. I've been involved in “Madara Cosmetics” to some extent, and I think there's a combination of general values and brand-story elements that are true in all markets. For example, organic raw materials, responsible and ethical production etc. This growing industry and consumer's understanding that cosmetics should be organic. And then there's the exotic element that lets you stand out, for example, a special design element that has a local characteristic, certain shapes, portrayal of landscapes, which isn't Scandinavian or European, but signals the Baltics. In this case, many locals here don't appreciate or realize that you shouldn't be ashamed of the cultural, visual and ideological references to our nation. They can actually help us be great and stand out on the European background. Ukraine has been a current topic, and you can see that they heavily reference, in political and other contexts, even in Eurovision, things that are specific to their culture, ornaments, Kazakhs, nature, sunflowers, and it makes them interesting and unique. I don't mean we all have to become provincial and reproduce artisan markets, but the history and cultural references, visual references can be a huge source for interpretation and can make us interesting and different in the context of Europe. Regarding the global brand-story, it doesn't matter whether those are cosmetics, financial services, food products or something else, if we as humans can use it here, then others should be able to use it at a product level. There's a uniting functional and emotional need that this product solves. The next level of how we stand out can be found here locally, in our country or our people.The big question is what the local brands are missing that keeps them from finding their place globally, from being heard.This too is a story about the long-term and the masses. I think they lack confidence and shamelessness in a positive sense. Instead of denying and copying something that's only a global trend you have to able to create trends yourself or use the current global trends in your own unique way. If you do it alone, you might look weird, but if it's represented by one, two, three, four, five, ten Latvian brands whose ambition is to conquer not only Latvia and the Baltics, but a wider region, then it creates a movement. It also encourages other brands. Latvian brands are often characterized by modesty and certain compliance, and excessive flexibility in response to external factors, therefore it's refreshing to meet the managers of “Printful”, “Madara” and other similar companies that have reached the next level, but at the same time have maintained the local presence, by developing infrastructure in a certain city or by supporting social initiatives here, in Latvia.You've been working on two studies for two years, about the marketing environment mood in Latvia and about the future trends. Can you provide insight into what you've discovered within these studies? What is the mood like in Latvia and the Baltics? What should we pay attention to in the next year?We have just completed the survey of the marketing environment in Latvia, where we surveyed the people responsible for marketing on the clients' side. We asked several questions, the report will be published soon. The overall question is whether the positivity has decreased or the pessimism has increased when compared to the previous year in regards to how you see the next 12 months for your company. What's interesting, the response to the decrease in positivity or increase in pessimism isn't to freeze and wait it out or to freeze, cut marketing resources and wait, but to react flexibly to what happens. The previous priorities of where to invest and what competences to develop are expressed in research, product analysis, seeking new audiences and export markets. There's no sense of doom, which I felt in 2008 or 2009. Maybe all the marketing and business conferences, saying that there are opportunities within a crisis, have worked, or it's a business truth that companies have realized, namely, that we have to be flexible in the face of potential recession and inflation in order to react appropriately. And we can find value there as well, by creating new types of products, new variations, by conquering new markets with design and marketing, by approaching new audiences. That's one big characteristic found in this survey. There are a lot of specific trends which can be found on social media. When we summarized this year's trends at the beginning of this year, I found it interesting that now, after a pandemic, during times of war, when everything seems bad and everyone should be glum and sad, things are the opposite. People are looking for positivity, brightness and colourfulness. It doesn't mean you're throwing a feast in a time of plague, it's just a natural human reaction and some sort of protest and fight against the large, grey authority. If we look at history, at the late 60s, 70s, oil crisis, the Vietnam War, stagnation within the Soviet Union, the Afghan War. What did simultaneously happen in pop-culture? Hippies, tie-dye art, disco. To summarize what the marketing managers themselves are saying, yes, we know we're going to face a challenge, but we're ready to fight and actively work on increasing value.

This time we're here with Beāte Seile and we talk about her experience working at “Stenders Cosmetics” and how to develop an idea into a finished product.How did you get into design, creative work and concept creation at the place you are now?I think it was fashion that I was drawn to. A long time ago I went to London to conquer that world in luxury fashion industry. That was an interesting process of growth. Once I tuned into my values, I felt that I have to return to Latvia. I got back to my roots, in my family's business, which involves printing and design. My parents created this concept from both sides – knowledge about design and printing, as well as experience in managing a printing-house. By connecting these elements, a brand was created where I spent quite a lot of time, but now I realise that I've had this feeling inside of me since childhood. I grew up with the scent of a printing-house. My first pocket-money was earned there. I deeply felt the tactile, sensory feelings of printing, which actually is quite present in this industry, where someone else sees just black on white, but I see the paper, the colours, the intensity, I see the things hidden in details. When you combine that with 9 years of childhood spent at Jānis Rozentāls Art School, it's only natural that a connection is made between the design and the material. That's how I ended up at “Stenders”, just as it began the rebranding process.Before it began or during?The direction of the rebranding was approved. There had been a competition between agencies, since this process is quite fundamental. It involves not only the change of logo and packaging, but changes in the interior of all stores, it means adjusting the product assortment. I would call it a modern update of the brand, while keeping and respecting the original values from 20 years ago. It's not just a change of the façade, it affects the internal processes of the company.Yes, absolutely. Also, there was a change in company's ownership, but the management and production remained in Latvia. My professional interest drove me to join something in a transformational stage, something imperfect, unpolished and unfinished, because that allows me to be involved in the decision-making process and the transformation, and that's incredibly interesting. When you join a company where everything is in order, you just work within an established system. Of course, there are changes and improvements, but, in this case, what happened at “Stenders” back then seemed like a merry-go-round. For all of us involved, not for a moment has the drive and interest in work been deflated. Could you expand on the rebranding process? What did you learn or didn't expect? Or was it as you expected? Any affirmations or new realizations?I definitely didn't expect that it happens slowly. It's been two years since we began. Two years ago, when everything was known, I thought we would see the new bottles on shelves in two months, but only just now have we reached that stage. It was very important for the marketing team to keep a tight rein on the basic concept, because concept is the thing that gives you a framework, a meaning and a direction. When we have to choose between several options, we always come back to the initial concept.When you started the job, did you know you would do the concept design? Did you create this position or was it already there and you aimed for it?We naturally felt that the concept is becoming increasingly important. This position wasn't there initially; it was part of my other tasks. We decided to focus more on the concept and the creative idea, because this kind of work has a very high added value. It involves deep research and deep operation in connection with various factors, which isn't just market and trend research, but also the context towards which the brand can and wishes to develop.How does it happen? Does it begin with a creative idea or do you look at the technological capabilities of the company to produce something or at Excel tables? What's the starting point?The starting point is based on three impulses. Firstly, an internal feeling that this is a product that could fit very well in our existing assortment or supplement a product line. Secondly, sometimes it's a task given by the company's owners, for example, if they've done their research on what would suit the Chinese market. Thirdly, we may sense a strong trend in the market that all manufacturers of cosmetics are following. We always work with the future in mind, instead of thinking about current trends. That ship has already sailed.You have all these impulses, but do you have a notebook or a folder? How do you organize these things in practice?If we're going through a creative process and we have the task arising from internal or external impulses, the first thing we always do is research. My task is to do extensive research of what's available in the industry and outside of it. Then comes an interesting stage, which is very important to all creative persons. It's the ripening of the collected information. During this stage I let the information sink in, it stays in the subconscious. I do other operational things or, ideally, take a rest. Then comes a moment when you wake up in the morning and you get an idea, everything comes together. It's a magical moment for me. Let's take a product collection or line for example. It becomes clear to me why it has to become part of our brand right now. I see what it will look and smell like. It's on sensory level. This moment is very important because you can't slacken off, you have to start working on putting it all together. The research, the knowledge gained plus the creative idea, also the intuitive side, you put it all in a concept and pack it up. Then all other things begin in regards to the team or development.You described the formula which I've used many times when developing new ideas. The exact same steps. It's nice to hear an affirmation. It's true that people tend to get ideas while showering or walking or when going to bed. It suddenly surfaces.Yes. I've thought a lot about that. People ask me how I come up with things. I can't admit that I couldn't fall asleep one night, made a cup of tea and came up with our collection for the next year. It's partially true. I'm able to work by intuition, and it's quite healthy to do so, but in order to work by intuition you need a foundation, a base for making these intuitive decisions and for trusting your intuition. If I had attempted to go about a task in this manner ten years ago, I would most likely have failed to achieve the desired result, because of indecision about hundred different options. In this case I only have one option because I've prepared for it, by capturing everything with my ‘antennas'. There comes a moment when you sense what's necessary.It's a good point about following one ripened idea instead of five parallel ones.One idea crystallizes itself.Let's say we have an entrepreneur from food industry, and he has technical capabilities, a know-how in manufacturing and he can produce 30 products, but he can't figure out the packaging – in what volume, with what weight. How would you advise him to start make sense of his product portfolio? What to package and present outwards?I would definitely suggest extensive research of the market and trends. In small businesses or start-up manufacturing companies I've noticed that they're creating a product for themselves. I like it this way, my subjective need or taste is this, therefore I will make this product and everyone will buy it, because my product is the best. In my opinion, you have to work on internally accepting that you're not creating a product for yourself, we're not satisfying our creative ambitions. You have to be aware of the reason you're doing this and why the market might be interested in this product.You have to be able to feel and know the audience.Yes, absolutely.But what does research mean? Going through Facebook, forums or studies?All of us in this industry who work with design, product development and creative concepts, we unconsciously implement that in our daily activities. No matter where you're at, you try to develop this susceptibility and attention, you notice details and somehow capture the bigger picture. The extensive research is everything from SEO data and trend tools up to studies and articles. You can look at this in two levels, the professional and consumer level, because they are equally important. You have to remember that the thing being discussed already exists. How to step forward into the unknown and how to catch a whiff of what's happening, that's the biggest challenge. If we only create what we see around us and what we like, we'll only make a repetition of existing things and designs. Well, it depends on the person, some will take the easy road.If you develop the ability to constantly pay attention, it comes naturally, but if you don't do it daily, it's actually very hard. Manufacturers who turn to us usually present all their capabilities, but lack an understanding of who they should appeal to, whether it's the youth, the more serious or wilder young people, or the seniors, or the wealthy people. They don't have a position like yours at their company. You're either guided by intuition or massive research, or you have to involve an agency.Yes, but an agency won't always be able to provide you with the right answer.If there's no link to the technical side and chemistry.Yes, exactly. Well, I come from a small company where we did everything ourselves with small resources and now, I find myself in a big company where we can involve the best Latvian agencies in certain processes. I realised that an agency can't solve everything. There are stages where you yourself have to be involved and think things through. If we talk about attention, it depends on the person. Is it easier to analyse thousands of data units, make Excel tables and calculate the mean value or is it easier to keep your eyes and ears open and just sense what's happening around you? And do it daily in a smaller or bigger dosage.There are two ways to handle a product. You can have a great product that will sell itself even in a plastic bag, or you can have a great product, but the way it's presented will determine if it will succeed. Namely, should you leave the product alone and just sell it or is it important to place it in the right story, packaging and shelf?  I know the example of “Ķelmēni” bread, I remember it well. I've contemplated that it works the other way around too, but in the long-term the product has to be good and of high quality. However, in this age of e-commerce, you can create incredibly beautiful pictures, present the product with an idea and a story, but the content itself can be lacking. During the pandemic, I think every one of us had been at least once fooled by something you had never seen in real life. You see some cool, beautiful thing online. It's especially true for cosmetics. One can create a vision, sell a promise, but the reality is completely different. If the brand has substantiated why it wants to create this product, then, in my opinion, the success rate is much higher.It's not completely clear to me. There are things that sell no matter how you package them, but there are some that you would never buy, unless they were presented in a certain way or situation. Maybe it depends on the category or, as you said, on the short-term or long-term. You can't keep it up for ten years straight. One time out of a thousand you can hit the jackpot intuitively like “Ķelmēni” did. There probably are thirty bread bakers who didn't succeed, even though they tried to create a good product.We often give a lot of consideration to packaging, whether we need packaging that elevates the product's value. There's the product cost and there's the price we would like to sell it for, and, with the help of packaging, we can lower it to the mass-market price level or elevate it to premium. Sometimes we use our senses like sight and touch to test hundreds of materials until we find one that matches what we want to see.You mentioned your experience studying in England. What are the differences when it comes to packaging and selling a mass-market product and a premium or super-premium product?I was lucky enough to work with such brand as Prada. I was very impressed by the level of attention that is given to this brand. All employees who work with clients are given a lipstick of a certain colour, there's a manual for styling your hair and for your whole look up to nail polish, let alone what uniform to wear. It's all stipulated in your contract. There's also communication, which is the most direct way of the brand interacting with clients. It includes the conversation, the service, the bag for the product, the feeling when you touch this paper bag, which definitely isn't the same one you would get across the street. The branding was so polished, so detailed. I think there's a whole team working on making sure that every detail is of the highest possible quality. And it shows in the product itself, in how it's produced. It's clear that the product cost of no bag on this planet could amount to five or ten thousand euros, it's the brand we're paying for. What I sensed from Chinese clients in this industry is that a European luxury brand is their ticket to having a status in China.Many small businesses of Latvia wouldn't be able to lower the prices based on volume in order to compete with global giants. When your price is already high, you can't look like your average product, since it will cost twice as much. So, you have to move into the premium segment, but you can't use the same bag or material, you have to be able to jump into this category.There are some brands in Latvia that are trying to break into the premium category of, let's say, clothing industry, and there we can see beautiful boxes, scented tissue paper and all these small things that create a luxury experience for the client. It's actually a huge investment for the company, it's costly and difficult to produce, but in the end it's the brand that separates one product from another.Based on your experience globally and in Latvia, do you think it's worth it for a small business to take this direction? Will the business be able to take this on and will there be someone who believes it and is ready to pay for it?I don't think it's an issue anymore. If I had thought about what a successful product should be five or ten years, my opinion would have been completely different. There has to be branding, there has to be a niche market, the product has to be better than hundred other products. Now my perception has changed, because I have a strong conviction that we live in an age of absolute over-production and that the focus actually is somewhere else, meaning, you don't want to produce the same product as others, but just a bit different, a bit better. Or to fill the market with new things again and again, if we can't even handle the current amount of things. And what does it take to produce? Where does it end up? I think the current focus is on creating a sustainable product, on how to use innovations, how to change habits, how to create an added value with the product, instead of creating another, let's say, bag.Is sustainability the thing you're focusing on right now at “Stenders”?We as a brand, on the management and employee level, have realised that it's the most important direction to focus on. For the time being, it's a preference, but a few years from now it will dictate the rules of the market. A brand that will adapt to these changes sooner, will be a successful brand.Many believe there's an equal sign between sustainability and having an Eco certificate. Could you tell me in simple terms what you mean by a sustainable company? Does it mean an Eco certificate with a percentage sign or something else?Society is still in the process of defining what is and what isn't sustainable. It's not true that all plastics are bad and all fabric bags are good. An aluminium bottle isn't better than a plastic one. It depends on which side you're looking from. The idea of sustainable products and business is based on principles of circular economy. How can we be as efficient, smart and economic as possible in using the resources that this planet provides? In the grand scheme of things, we still have to do business, we have to exist and sell products, and this product has to fulfil its function, but, at the same time, being sustainable doesn't mean adding certain certificates. Of course, certificates allow people to manage this sustainability trend. Lately a lot of companies are “green-washing”, namely, they attach all possible labels of being environmentally friendly and green, but, if the consumer doesn't go into them, he may be convinced he's making a better choice, when sustainability actually has to be present in all levels of the company. There's this B Corp Certification, which a lot of companies are striving for. This certification system covers all aspects. All kinds of transparency which can be implemented in all levels of the company, so we could say with confidence that we're working towards sustainability.Does it apply to Europe and Latvia or just North America?It's a global network, which a lot of big companies want to be a part of now, so that they're able to compete. It provides you with a ‘green card' in a sense. Actually, it allows the company to organize its resources and processes, so it can operate at the new-world level.Can you give me an example of changes it has brought to your internal processes?There are both big and small changes. You have to simultaneously work on all aspects of the company. A sustainability team has been established within the company, which includes managers from each department and key employees in charge of processes. The biggest task is to establish what we're dealing with,    

My name is Miķelis Baštiks, and this is Asketic Podcast, where we discuss design and branding. This time we're meeting illustrator Roberts Rūrāns and talk about how to develop your signature style from street art to medieval art and find global clients while working here in Latvia.I've always really liked to draw, and that's essentially illustration, creation of images.But you didn't start out as a professional illustrator. At first you were doing large-scale graffiti on the streets. I'm interested to hear your retrospective view on how you went from painting large-scale pictures on to painting with extremely fine brushes, going from the utmost maximal to the utmost minimal scale. You started out as a designer, you worked as an in-house illustrator at an agency, now you're an independent freelance illustrator. How did you find yourself on this path to illustration and to realizing this is what you want to do? As I've mentioned before, this path began in early childhood. Drawing has always been my favorite activity, which I did in my free time and not so free time. My parents took me to art schools, and I positioned myself on this trajectory. It seemed like the natural path to take. To draw or create something on a plane. It progressed step by step until I found myself in Jānis Rozentāls Art School. When I finished this Secondary School, I applied to the Art Academy of Latvia but didn't get in at first. Then in England. When it comes to the occupation, I've never considered an alternative scenario for my life.For a while you were a designer. Yes, I was, because back then I knew only of caricaturists, which meant satirical and political cartoons, but that didn't particularly captivate me. I also knew of designers, who work with visuals, but only occasionally do drawings.There are also painters.Exactly, there are painters and artists, who create whatever they want at their studio, organize exhibitions and sell their work. And I wasn't really aware of illustrators, who essentially are commercial artists. Once I enrolled in the Art Academy, I realized I need to get to know this industry better. Like, who are these people that are artists, but also are able to earn something and pay their bills? Those obviously are designers. I'd say I got lucky. I ended up here, in Asketic, a while ago, as you remember.Do you remember the turning point when you chose illustrations over design as your primary pursuit?It actually happened here. When you do other things, you realize what you don't like and that you want to do something else. Here I realised that I lack design skills and that the most enjoyable tasks are the ones where I have to draw something by hand, where I have to come up with ideas for illustrations. You also mentioned my interest in street art, which I've had since being 14. I was influenced by friends and art school. It was a task which grew into a long-time interest. That also played a huge part in me choosing a career of an illustrator. It captivated me so much that I felt I could do it forever.As a professional illustrator, what do you now think of street art and 16-year-olds who create it? If I'm being serious, it was something that I needed at that age, but later people mostly grow out of the interests of their youth or transform them into something more mature.In your street art period, you painted with completely different tools in a large scale, but now your works are particularly small-scale even for an illustrator. Firstly, you draw by hand and, secondly, you use really fine brushes. What do you think of this contrast?Upon reflection, it shows how much I've changed or moved away in my thinking from the place I was back then. I've remained on the same path of visual expression and illustrations, but my way of thinking is completely different. Perfectionism was prominent back then as well. I needed all lines to be neat, they couldn't be wobbly or blurry. Lines and areas had to be sharp. Such visual nuances have remained.Since you primarily paint by hand and not digitally and since you have a tendency towards perfectionism, it would seem that a digital image could be modified much more easily, thus allowing you to attain perfection. What do you do, when you draw by hand? Do you start from scratch or use the eraser? How do you handle yourself?Nowadays there's this beautiful super-eraser called Photoshop, which forgives many mistakes. I have a balance between “perfect” and “non-sterile perfect”, so the human touch is still felt. You have to understand what perfection means to you.When you realized you'll become an illustrator, what made you decide to mostly illustrate by hand – on the paper with real brushes and real paints?That happened gradually. I tried a lot of things, including technical, before I arrived at my current style. I've studied graphics at the Art Academy, I've tried various techniques of graphics, which also involve working by hand. I've also drawn lots of things digitally in various styles. It's been an evolution. By trying these various things, my intuition has told me what are the specific aspects which I like and which I'm ready to continue applying. And those which I dislike.Illustrators represent an interesting position between designers and artists, where you work on orders, but simultaneously you have your own vision and signature, which is the reason why you get chosen and receive orders. You're not an artist, who creates based on their whims, but you're neither a designer who has to be able to work in various styles, and, even if you can, you have chosen your own signature. How do you see your balance between professional occupation, artistic ambition and your developed signature style?This is a very good characterization. I've also said this about illustrators – it's art with a task.When I looked through your website, I saw that your signature style has developed from minimalistic, geometric shapes into an interpretation of medieval art. Do you create your signature intentionally or allow yourself to flow? What happens when people, who knew you six months or a year ago and made an order back then, return as clients? Do you draw in your previous style or you insist that it will look differently now?Yes, I'm in a transitional stage. It's a good question. As you said, it can be seen on my website. There's more simplistic, even minimalist, stuff at the bottom, but now my works are rich in detail. In this transitional stage I still have clients who request my previous type of work. Depending on the task and all other criteria, I either agree or say “No, thank you”.So you do assess the request. You're not willing to apply the style from a previous artistic stage.It depends. Sometimes I am, if the other criteria are quite good.Primarily, financial?Yes, primarily.It's an actual aspect of the topics usually discussed on this podcast. We talk about design, business and branding. These things relate to you as an illustrator as well. You represent an intermediate stage between designers and artists, it is an occupation that lets you earn money and you're also developing your brand. The matter of your signature style also contributes to your branding process. It's one way for a designer and different for an artist. You have the privilege to set out your own path, but, at the same time, the orders you receive tend to direct you in one way or another.It's an old truth that what you show to the world is what others start to want from you. As a literal example, I've worked for the Olympics with an illustration of a sportsman. After that I had several clients from the sports industry who were interested in collaboration. In one interview you mentioned that it's important for artists to show their work, actively participate in competitions and be present on social media. You can't just sit and wait for clients. Many artists probably feel like their job is done once they complete the piece of art. How do you divide your time between creating art, preparing invoices and showing your work in public?It's very unstructured. My calendar day is not split up in hours, I go with the flow, but each part of the work certainly takes its time. I truly believe you have to show your work to people, so they know you exist. And you have to do it regularly. I might not be the best example of this. The perfectionism in me sometimes keeps me back from showing some content. That's not good. I would advise showing even unpolished stuff, work in progress. Nowadays, when it comes to showing yourself, it's mostly about the quantity, not the quality.You're one of the rare creative professionals who understands that you don't have to do everything by yourself. You have not one, but several agents, who allow you to reach the global market. How did you come to that realization? Tell me how it works.I have other helpers, like my accountant, who significantly alleviates my work. I realized that after researching other global illustrators. I saw that it's standard practice. I watched interviews with agents or artists speaking about agents to better understand what that means. I realized it's a good way to reach foreign markets and fight for provisions that are favourable to you on the business side of things. The agent represents me, namely, tries to get the best deal for me. That improves the financial side. The aspect of rights is resolved, whether the client buys or leases my work. The agent takes over the accounting part, sends out invoices, collects money, all that side of things. Essentially does everything, except creates the work. Also does all communication with clients.Can you tell me about the provisions? One would think you just draw a picture and get paid. End of story. You've established the culture very well, where it's not just a binary activity, draw-pay. There are various stages, various criteria. Can you walk me through it? Let's say, I'm an entrepreneur who wants to order your illustration. What are the criteria that make up these provisions?Unless you had told me in the first e-mail everything you want, I would ask you the terms of reference. What exactly you want me to draw, how much, in what time, whether you have a budget in mind or you want me to make an offer? In order to understand the financial side, I'd like to know the ways you intend to use my work. Is it for an event, a website or a longer campaign? Or do you want to acquire all rights and own my work? Following on from that, I or my agent will offer some budget options.Meaning, if I'd like to get one poster for my high school party, the price would be one, but if I wanted to print 100 000 copies of it for boxes of packaging, the price would be different?Yes, exactly. It's not very common in Latvia, since the industry is still new here. Little time has passed since the restoration of independence. But it's a global norm that the artists can indeed sell their rights and their work, but mostly clients lease it. They buy the rights to use it for a certain period of time or type of use. If the client, who you've printed the high school poster for, says he would actually like to use the same illustration for another upcoming event, then the client would ask for a permission to do so and the price for it. If we as artists know that we own our work, we can…Make it work for us?Yes, it can create a passive income. After a while, if the provisions agreed upon with the original client allow it, I can sell the rights to use the same work to others or to the same client for other applications and so on.Could you tell me about the process? Not for pro bono works for local friends. You've worked with quite many global clients and publications. Do they come to you with a clear idea? For example, do they ask you to draw these two people doing this activity, but in your style? Or do they tell you the theme and leave the portrayal up to you, let's say, in one sketch or ten? Do you prepare one tiny sketch or a whole presentation?Tasks tend to differ. There are clients with a clear vision and there are clients who are open to my interpretation of their rough idea. It's best when it's something in-between. You have the artistic freedom, but it's also clear that they know what they want. As for the work process itself, I initially research the theme, so I have a better idea of what I should portray. In the first stage I send out rough, even sloppy sketches that mostly just communicate the idea and concept options. Then the client makes a choice or we find the direction the client wants to take through discussion. I then develop this idea to the next level. First level is a postmark-sized sketch with pen in a notebook.Postmark-sized? Really that small?Yes, it's nothing visual, just gives you the idea. The next level is when I turn this postmark into a postcard, which is bigger and now has a clear composition of how it will look in the end. The third level is a colourful sketch. The composition is refined even more, and it's clear what colours will be used where. This stage is done digitally. Then comes client's approval, some adjustments and then we move on to the final product –a water-colour painting on paper, which, of course, is the best part of the job. The client has only seen the colourful digital sketch with vectors and coloured areas. People have told me that it looks complete and ready-to-use already in that stage. I tell them to wait for a little bit. And when I send them the final work they go “Wow!”. You see the textures. It's flat, but not digital-flat. Overall, it creates a cool impression.Is it still digital? You probably don't send them the physical copy by mail.Yes, in the end it's still digital. I paint it, scan it and send them the file.What was the turning point when you realized you can not only do this for your friends and concerts or create this as a by-product for some visual identity, but that you can work globally as a professional illustrator?The first big successes cemented my confidence that I'm capable and that it's something of value, something that people want and is necessary. But how did that happen? You were drawing your first orders. When was the first breakthrough?I think it's when I was noticed. My first foreign client was Vogue.That's an interesting jump. You're a new illustrator from Riga and then suddenly –– Vogue. I'm inclined to believe there was something in-between. I would like to understand what happened after you decided to become an illustrator –s and many people do, they start drawing, post images on Instagram, but it's not like the next step for everyone is Vogue.They noticed me, but before that I was noticed by “It's Nice That”.Okay, and how did they notice you? Did you send something to them or did they discover you?No, they discovered me. I usually don't send anything, okay, no, I have sent some things, but they did notice me.What did they notice? Your website or Instagram account?It was one specific project that was created in collaboration with “Kus!”. There was this workshop that had artists from the Great Britain collaborating with new Latvian artists to create some short stories.So the first project was non-commercial?Yes.And it was noticed by media?That often is the key – to create something that fascinates you and that you can have fun with. You can push the boundaries of your abilities. It might not be commercialized in this exact form, but the client who would want something less bold will see that you can be really bold, interesting and captivating. They might commission you for a boring job, but they need that confidence that you're a cool guy. So, I was noticed by “It's Nice That” and afterwards the bigger clients started to appear, Vogue being the first one. It's like stairs – you complete one project and it gets noticed by someone else and so on.Is there a system for how you make people take notice of you? Do you post on Instagram and wait for people to call you?Yes, I just post on Instagram and wait.And the waiting has been successful so far?Yes, it has.Very good. How many years have you worked as a professional illustrator?For about seven or eight years.How do you see yourself in ten years? Won't you get bored of drawing? Or is it the way you develop your style and what you will continue doing as long as your hands allow it?Yes, as long as my hands allow it, I will continue doing it. Hopefully I will develop my technique even more. Like you said in the beginning, I used to do large-scale street art, but now I work with very fine brushes, so it's interesting how it will develop further. I go with the flow and follow my interests.It would be quite nice if you painted the façade of some house, but with your current experience and vision.Yes, I have thought of that.If a listener has a façade available for this purpose, let us know.Sure!You'd be willing to do that?Yes, maybe I would.Okay. You have projects where you create posters for summer concerts. You also create illustrations for the New York Magazine. It's clear that the budget and provisions are not the same in both cases. Tell me about the balance between these two projects, where you earn something or create things for different reasons. What's your inner motivation? Why do you do one and the other?As you said, these motivations can vary. There always are three main motivations, namely, financial – the size of budget, then how interesting the project will be – easy, difficult, cool, fun or boring to do, and then the client – their brand, name, how easy or difficult it will be to collaborate, other obstacles. After weighing out this combination, I make a decision on each collaboration. When it comes to collaborations that aren't motivated by the financial aspect and the client's name, such criteria as friendship with the client plays a big role, as it was in the case of concert posters. Or I just know that it will be very cool to work on the specific project because of the huge creative freedom. Besides, I will really like the end-result. You don't say “No” to small, interesting projects.Yes, exactly.Is it different working for global clients? Do they work with a different attitude and implement different processes that we can apply here, in Riga? Or is the world small and everyone works in the same way?There are global clients who work with illustrators a lot, for example, the media. It's the daily life for them. New York Times, I believe, publishes illustrations every day. It's simple with them. They know what to expect from you and you from them. The critique is quick and constructive, and the deadlines are very short.What is a short deadline? Hours, days, weeks?Usually a few days. Once it was one day. From working with illustrators, they've realized that some illustrators work quicker, some slower. No one has asked me to create something in 3 hours, because they see I wouldn't be able to do that, so I don't get such requests. I have had a two-day deadline, which was very stressful for me.I read you're currently studying the drawings of medieval monks.Yes, that's what excites me at the moment. It's the case when your interests from outside the art world also takes the artistic and creative side there. I'm interested in Christianity, mainly traditional Christianity lately. It has a very rich art history. I'm also interested in history. The more I research it, the more my visual side follows course.What would you like to see more of in contemporary illustrations? What would you like to see less of?More personal approach to the visual side and less following trends. Trends are cool and you can get inspired by them and you should get inspired by them to an extent in order to be current. However, there has to be a good balance with a big touch of personality. If not personality, then something that the artist is really good at. I would like to see a more individual approach, and not being afraid of analogue techniques. I, for example, do paintings. My favourite artists, who I follow, are often the ones who work with hands, and it's not on purpose. I just find the aesthetics so interesting. There's this British girl who creates all her illustrations with linocuts. It adds the texture, the liveliness. Her style is quite peculiar. At first it seems very specific. Namely, who would want to pay for this? It's like liquorice. Not everyone likes liquorice, but some do. Since the internet allows us to work with clients worldwide, we can find a lot of people who love liquorice. It's okay, if we can't find that many locally. That adds personality and character to such works. Those are the artists I follow. For example, there's an artist in South Korea who draws everything with coloured pencils. He draws in realism, but it turns out really cool.

My name is Miķelis Baštiks, and this is Asketic Podcast, where we discuss design and branding. This time we're here with Liene Krištobane, Marketing Manager at Stenders Cosmetics, and we will be talking about her experience both working for the agency and being its client, and how to present the Nordic design language to the Asian culture.In one previous conversation you mentioned that even though you work in the marketing department of Stenders, your daily duties actually involve the product and the laboratory to a large extent. Tell me more about that.At the moment, I oversee both Stenders' marketing team and product development department. Internally we call it the Creative Centre. Considering my previous experience, 'creative' means something a bit different, but it actually is a laboratory with 3 technologists and many assistants and technicians, who spend their days boiling, mixing, making, and it's an immensely fantastic process, because instead of thinking about how to take a photo or film a video, or what to post on Instagram, it makes you think about the product that people actually need.Do you remember your first position at an advertising agency? Did you start as a project manager?Actually I started as an office manager, at the very, very basic level. I started at TBWA with Ivo Strante, Mārtiņš Ķibilds and Alda on the team and many extremely talented project managers with a great creative capacity.First you were office manager, then project manager.Yes, then I was a project manager at TBWA. For a while I thought I had assumed this position too quickly, since project managers have to take on a lot of responsibility. Then I moved on to McCann, where I started as an assistant. I sort of took a step back. Soon after we faced the crisis of 2008, which initiated a lot of changes in many companies, and I became a project manager.You started as a project manager, but when you concluded your career in advertising agencies you were a project director, right?Yes, I became project director. In most agencies there's a fine line between being a project manager and a project director. I see the role of a project director as someone with more extensive experience working on a bigger scale and understanding, and ability to anticipate moments of crisis. When I was a project director, I got an offer from my client Tele2 to become the brand manager of "Zelta Zivtiņa", which seemed like my work being appreciated. When I switched to the client's side, the world absolutely turned upside down. In an agency, you manage a process. A client comes in and tells you he has a campaign, a budget, he needs this, he needs that, please make it happen. It's a creative process that takes place under the supervision of a project manager. It means making sure the creative director has established a concept, the artist has drawn a sketch, it means presenting it to the client on time. You have to manage the process up to the development of a finished creative material. On the client's side it means research, data analysis, Excel tables, business result analysis, a lot of numbers and analysis. It's a completely different direction where this creative material, which is absolutely essential at an agency, becomes the means for a company to achieve its business goals or KPIs.What are the essential skills required from a project director that maybe at first seemed to you as "just managing a project", but actually means working with more people and clients?The first task is to learn to delegate. In the context of an agency that's the first one, since you have a project manager and an assistant under you in a large scale. You have to learn to delegate because you have to oversee a much bigger range of clients. That's one of the biggest challenges within an agency, but in order to delegate you have to have gone through all those stages yourself. However, when it comes to clients, it means greater responsibility, since the client sees you as an expert, who they can call at any time of the day. Listen, Liene, what do you think I should do? Drawing from the experience you have accumulated throughout the years you're able to assess and suggest the best solution. Being in the role of a project director, you have to know the client to their core. Where we err in the context of Latvia is when we make a video and forget about it, but what is essential in the role of a project director is to follow up on what's happening. Maybe you're busy with different important issues and haven't noticed. Project director can become your sparring partner, who you can meet up with, whom you can tell all pros and cons, dangers in this or other situation, and plan strategic steps forward.Do you remember the moment when you switched from the agency to the client's side? Walk me through what happened in your head and career.It was clear to me that I wanted to work at a large telecommunications or finance company that works with agencies. It was quite a clear goal and that's how it played out. I switched to the client's side, I had no team, there were three marketing managers, each in charge of their own brand. My team consists of five agencies, and in each of them there are five more people working with me. I suddenly have to be able to manage all this and understand the key things that are important to the company. I quite vividly remember the moment when I was on vacation in Italy, yet having a conversation with my boss in San Francisco, with my Swedish colleagues in Sweden and also with our creative team in Riga. At that moment I realised the scale of this and that we were no longer just an agency in Latvia that it's very exciting to have an international client like BMW. You're discussing the script for a TV ad and, being on the client's side, you analyse it even more meticulously than when you were a project director at an agency. Yes, but what will his gaze express at that moment? Should we see humour in his eyes in this TV ad, should we see condemnation? Should it be a smirk? I realised we're now playing in a different league. At the agency, no one probably even thought of that. But for a client it is important to ask these questions so that people consider these things and to ensure the desired result.It's a good point that no one at the agency even thought about that. Does the agency not care or just hasn't been informed about all processes? Where does this void come from?I believe they do care, it's just that at that point there were very few international clients and international orders in Latvia. There's a huge difference when you're filming a video for 20 000 and for 200 000, the client's requirements are also different. At that moment I felt in how much detail the client goes into when it comes to how we make the video. There are various methods. You can go as deep as considering what kind of gaze someone should have. Or you can trust completely and let them do their thing. You have to sense which method to apply and when. In this case we were at a different level and had a different approach, because we wanted to be extremely sure about the end result.What, being on the client's side then and now, would you suggest to the agency? Give a list of what to do more and what to do less now that you've been on both sides.I would say that the agency has to come to the client and as often as possible. In person?In person. You have to see how the business takes place. What the client cares about, what he doesn't. What he worries about, what he doesn't. You have to call and ask how they're feeling. It's the non-traditional business relationship where you gain a bigger understanding. But is it still possible on such scale now when you're a part of an even bigger international company? When you have Australia, China, Europe?You can always make a call. Some things may not be urgent today, but a few weeks go by and they become extremely urgent. If you have missed this moment from the agency's side, I will have solved it myself. This is the case for rapidly growing companies. If your client is such a company, then you have to check in with them at least once a week, by calling and asking how they're doing. Or you have to visit them at least every other week to discuss some issues. I started to oppose Zoom meetings, because there we just do some talking, turn off our cameras and that's it. The added emotional value is lost, because, if we consider what marketing actually means, it's the people. Both the people in your inner team and the people you're creating for. Now being in an international company you definitely feel a different turnaround when compared to a large local company. What is the ambition, scale and pace which you feel now when you're at Stenders, working with many markets globally, and which is incomparable with the local market?Don't be afraid to be big. The ambition is exactly that. Don't be afraid to stand beside brands that have been in the market for 100 years. I can't be afraid to be big, and these are my rivals instead of the local companies. Of course it requires a very high level of responsibility. Responsibility to yourself, to the level of results you want to achieve and how you want to present your brand. At the same time, despite product development being similar in the cosmetics industry, namely, long, this industry involves constant innovations. And you just have to catch up and make it on time. That's why we're now working on a tool that predicts changes in society's behaviour and trends. It involves sociological and anthropological studies on how the society is changing, what becomes relevant in the world as a whole and what trends shall it lead to in two, five and ten years. What direction is society taking? That makes it much easier to hop on the same train with the big guys when you think similarly. It's awesome when you have defined jasmine as your scent of the year and your rivals have done the same. These steps allow you to be noticed by the grands. If a brand like L'Occitane, when drafting a contract with a shopping mall, puts in a condition not be placed next to Stenders' stand, we consider it a victory. These small things provide you satisfaction, and you realise that you're capable, we're capable and so is Latvia. We sense that the values of the Nordic region are appreciated in the markets and the client enjoys what we put in the products. By applying these various methods, we see that each new product we create sells better than the one before despite there being classic values. It seems really cool that you see the result and that people like what you do. Our task is to distinguish, which things will be relevant to people. What will they want to buy, what shall we offer them, what will provide them with enjoyment in their bathroom? I find this subject to be really important and cool, especially in this crazy period that all history books will tell about. Being with yourself in your bathroom. You might think what's so special about the bathroom, but that's the only place where you take off everything. You have nothing on, you're being your true self. Stenders is present at that moment. There are more than 200 employees at Stenders who test out the products themselves, and they take into account how the client will feel when using this product in the bath or shower. What scent and texture they will feel, how will they hold this packaging, will they feel happy they bought this product or not? Will they be willing to decor their bathroom with this bottle? Those are the small things in life, but they reflect upon people and self-preservation, which is a huge resource that the society is discussing in the context of sustainability and other areas. I don't want to call it spoiling yourself. It's more like a daily necessity in order for us to rejuvenate, or a way to set the mood for the day or work, or to relax in the evening. As a reflection to what I do during the day, it starts and ends in the bathroom where Stenders wants to be present and understanding of what the client wants or what would make them happier, or what would make this moment more enjoyable. Overall our task is to find solutions that cause no harm to the environment. Recyclable plastics, reusable raw materials, that's what we do daily. My position is that of a marketing director, but me together with the Creative Centre think about how to modify formulas or create new formulas that would leave as little footprint on the nature as possible.What is the process between you and the marketing team deciding you need a certain product and then you going to the lab to request this product or collection of products?In the global context, Stenders has strongly occupied its niche as a bathroom brand. Market research takes place regarding what else we can offer for the client's bathroom, what would make this process more interesting. Research is done on various raw materials, there are discussions with suppliers. What is innovative, what are they able to offer? What are our requirements? We have to provide enjoyment to the client through colour, form, texture, scent. That's why there's the Creative Centre which constantly develops and thinks about how we can present this common product in a different form. What is new, what is relevant? In the spring, while following a global trend with regards to the 70s we created a bath bomb collection, which allows you to bring fashion into your bathroom through the colour and the function of bath bombs. Of course, it includes research of the suppliers and the rivals, since in cosmetics industry we're dependent on the supplier, on what raw material they can offer and what we can make of that.A topic I wanted to discuss is working with the creative team or the designer. One of the aspects is terms of reference or briefing. You can do it face to face in two sentences, you can prepare a four-page document, you can create a visual material. What I liked from your approach is to see that the terms of reference are created by the marketing team, and, when they reach the creative team, in the communication context it is visually quite comprehensive. It isn't just an Excel table, it provides a clear understanding of what we want to see visually. I know that on your marketing team on the client's side you have people who visit exhibitions throughout Europe and are very capable in communicating what they want through graphics, in expressing their opinion. That is very useful to the designer, since they don't have to do the work themselves. The client has done it already. They can just take up the baton and move forward more quickly. There's a paradox that the marketing team on client's side often lacks graphic understanding or ability to form their opinion regarding what they have received from the designer, it's poor or almost non-existent. It's a different story in your case. To what extent do you think it helps you? Have you worked on it deliberately or has it just worked out that way? How important is it on the client's side, on marketing's side to have a basic understanding of the graphic work with a designer and to be able to express your preferences for fonts, colours, moods and shapes?When I had the opportunity to send my team to learn or check out what's happening in the world's design scene, or get some inspiration, the result I achieved was tenfold. I believe it's the responsibility of a strong company to promote and build this understanding of design and what it is that we expect. Everyone on our team has their own taste, their understanding of things, but these joint or separate trips or knowledge exchange has a great impact. It was an interesting breaking point, when we, by going, watching and learning, started to expect more from the external design team than what they could bring us. At that moment you realise the huge difference between going, learning, watching, getting new impressions or staying in the state of 'I can and know everything, I get a briefing, I complete a briefing and forget about it', because those are the guidelines and we don't sway to the left or right. That's why it's so important to bring the global experience.Who are the players? We have the classic marketing team, five or fifty managers all doing something. Your structure is a bit different. Who are the players that you have put on your team?In our marketing team we have a product concept author who creates a concept for products, then we have an interior designer who develops interior for the shops all over the world, there's a marketing project manager and two designers. Then there's a junior project manager who helps out with technical things. That's the current organism.It's a very interesting, non-standard set.Yes, definitely. We outsource the things we can't handle. E-commerce is handled in-house. This model isn't set in stone, we work according to an open principle. We do something one way and then see what happens.It's cool that you can divide it that way. I often hear from clients that they have to make the sale quickly, they compromise on everything and the mock-up, let's say for a Facebook ad, in the end looks terrible. At the same time you want to build a lasting image of a high-quality, aesthetic brand with all kinds of values, but often there's an inner clash.Of course there are sales goals and then there are brand goals, but there are vetoes that we do not cross, where it's important to hold the brand's position and then I stand up for it, where's the boundary between the brand and the sales result. Our value lies in wanting to add value.With the mock-up?With both the mock-up and the offer to the client. It has to run in the blood of every Stenders' employee that we want to add value for the client.Are there any takeaways from the rebranding process you've experienced for the companies considering doing a face-lift or rebranding? What should they pay attention to?The same store at the same place with the same products. You create a new design that allows you to double the returns. At that moment, both the time invested and the financial means invested require no comments. The decision is very hard. Experienced people are usually scared of this process, because they know what it takes, but it definitely is worth it. One of Stenders' values is choosing the narrowest gate to go through, knowing it will be harder, but it would bring better results. Never choosing the easiest route.If we look 12 to 18 months ahead, what topics from the marketing field you're interested in and consider worth looking into.In the context of Stenders, it's brand development. In the last years we've been very focused on the product. Now that the products have successfully reached the market, we can pay more serious attention to communication.What's the most exciting thing for you from all that and marketing itself? Where do you see yourself the most?I don't think in the context of myself, I think in regards to Stenders. It's important to tell the story of Stenders to the world, so that they understand the unique added value that comes from this region, because I find this story to be very deep and representative of our cultural values. If we look at any country house from hundred years ago, there's always a bath-house. It's an absolutely integral part of people's everyday life. Nowadays it's the bathroom. We have things to say to the world, considering our knowledge about bathing rituals, about nature and what nature brings to people's life and this ritual. We have a fantastic nature here that we can draw from and that we can tell the world about. What Stenders brings to this story is the modern times, the science, how we bottle up this nature and place it in the bathroom according to the current requirements for the bathing and rejuvenation rituals. It's extremely important for me to tell this story to the world, to show the value of Stenders and proudly bring it forward. I'm very pleased that people are already appreciating and understanding the value of the Nordic region, which is highly valued in the world with its uniqueness and high added value both in the product – since they know that we produce high-quality products – and in the design.Cool, thank you!Thank you!

Asketic co-Founder Miķelis Baštiks talking with Inese Ozola from "Amoralle" and "Amoralle Level Up" about how to build and work with the audience and how to create new ways of building business by listening to your audience.M: Speaking of fundamental values, which we discussed while creating the website. You have identified them, but how do they impact the practical side of things? Secondly, we once touched upon this in our Instagram conversation, how you didn't create Level Up out of thin air, but instead created something for your existing audience or community that's completely different from your core business, which is to sew clothing. When you had SockBox, you probably never imagined you would have digital products, masterclasses, but when you understand your person, you can make anything for them, gather help for Ukraine, film videos and sew clothing. Those are different activities, but they are for the same person. I find it very interesting – building around the audience, because 9 out of 10 times it's the other way around. Someone decides to make or sell something and then looks for people who need it. You're the rare case, where you already had an audience and then you keep expanding it.I: If someone first decides to become a fashion designer, and there are a lot of people who feel such drive in them, and then this person very purposefully works toward what they believe in, then eventually they will find their audience. In these cases, the authenticity of such people is always totally clear, you know they are looking straight ahead towards their goal, it's their opinion. You may like it, so you follow that, or you may not like it – so you don't. The downside is that this usually is a very firm, inflexible, very straight path. While the other story, which is my story, is a relationship with the brand or with your dream.M: The difference is that in the first case the brand is created around the personality, but in the second case – around the audience. Seth Godin, a grand-master of marketing, has compared business creation to a dance – you called it a relationship – where you constantly do your best to not step on each other's foot and understand where you are going next, and that's the other path.I: I actually think that today's brands are about this relationship.M: As much as I was able to witness your team in action, it felt very good, and also, I could sense a system underneath. There was no bureaucracy, which was nice to observe. Have you intentionally applied that or is there a structure, the invisible carcass?I: You can't teach that, you can create that, it's a living organism, and it works because everyone is in their place. One of our unwritten rules is that every person who exits our premises, whether it's a cooperation partner, client or delivery person, has to feel happier than when they entered. To sell something at the store is not as important as making the lady happy as she leaves.M: That's one of the cornerstones of the brand, and then you seek how you can achieve that with music, interior design, relationships, specific staff dress code. And these are the small points of contact, which together create the sense of the brand or associations with Amoralle.I: Of course, I'm glad to hear praise, thank you for that, but I find critique to be of the highest value. That allows me to analyse the situation, and any critique is always followed by a small adjustment to the system going forward. For example, an individual order – a lady wants to make a dress. We have agreed on the design, the price, but something goes wrong, there's a lack of satisfaction. I dissect this whole situation, and going forward we introduce a payment of deposit with the order. If we don't pay the first instalment or pay before the service, then we don't feel involved in the process. Whereas, after we pay the first instalment we feel as a partner in the process towards the common goal. Also, a clear understanding of what each element costs and why. We get this question quite often. Why does this silk peignoir costs 1000 euros?M: How do you explain this value in practice? Do you explain during the meeting, is it explained on video or at the website? In your experience, what is the best way to convey the value of this end-product or piece of art?I: To date, a detailed video story has worked the best, where you see the beginning, the fabric being sewn by people and then the product, which is now on the catwalk at a fashion show. Then an unwritten rule is to have a sample, namely, the bicycle has been invented and you need to see what are the people, who already have reached the destination of our path, doing now.M: Okay, in every aspect of your operation?I: Yes, name it, in every aspect there's a sample, because when you see it visually, you understand what resonates with you and what is it you would like to change to convey the message to your clients. The sample has allowed me to save a lot of money and time. I've learned it over time in cases of failure, and by analysing them I realise that from now on we shall implement a sample. Failures are the ones that help you take bigger steps toward your goal; they help you save money and time in the future.M: How do you find the balance between being present with your team, doing all these things that you mentioned, and stepping away from all that quite a lot, letting the team work remotely or independently?I: I'm present as much as I can, I trust my colleagues and that's the only way I want to work. I pay a lot of attention to having the strongest, sharpest, most powerful and efficient colleagues on the team.M: How does it work in practice with there being multiple locations? Are you some days in one place and some days in other? Or do you all meet up or have a conference call or you work individually? How does that happen in reality?I: I spend a certain time in each place, but I do spend more time where the toughest stage is being tackled. For example, during the creation of Level Up, I spent more time at Level Up.M: How did you realise that during the Covid pandemic you could create a new business branch, which is Amoralle Level Up and has no direct relation to clothing, but is more like a community for women who relate to this brand, but you offer completely different products, namely, online masterclasses, digital products, various events on your premises?I: In this field of information and specialists, to be able to select the best, the most powerful ones and to transfer this knowledge to your clients, to be together with them and together realise how we as a brand can help them. And we can help, because we are the ones who created this femininity brand cult in Latvia. If you had to name a Latvian femininity brand, you would definitely mention Amoralle. That's what we created, this story of lace, the victory walks of lace. We have been the pioneers. It makes us responsible to these women to give them what they need today. And one day, if I as the director or we as the brand feel that they need a new direction, I will follow it.M: What you did in respect of Ukraine, when you momentarily, in a few days' time created a new centre, where you could bring the necessary things and supplies to help, it was not just an Instagram post of support, but a practical platform, which allowed the people who relate to your brand to get involved and help out.I: This story has more to it. When the war in Ukraine began, when Russia invaded Ukraine, we were having the pre-launch campaign for our new collection, we had planned to start selling the new collection. We had invested money in the collection and the marketing campaign, ads etc. At that moment it was clear to us that our women, the ones who love the brand Amoralle – none of them would want such dress, nobody would want to see it. That's not possible. We stopped everything instantly, and together with them we dived into helping as one big team.M: Once my friend told me that he had went into this shop on Brivibas Street called SockBox to buy socks for his girlfriend and that's the first time I heard of it. Later you became what you are now. How did it even begin? How did you get the idea to create something like this?I: I created the shop after my son had just been born, it was opened when he turned 9 months old. I basically created it at home with the computer, while feeding the baby. The initial idea was to offer socks from various manufacturers to women and men. Less than a year later I was working at the shop daily. I was the cleaner, the accountant, the director, I was everything. While working there every day, I realised that no one is producing the things that women would like to buy. I even went to China to see if somebody there produces what I think they would want to buy. Then my mom mentioned that we could sew it ourselves. She knows how to sew, but she had just joined sewing courses to improve her skills. I said “okay” and so we bought a sewing machine and hired Natālija who still works with us.M: The rebranding stage when SockBox became Amoralle. Why did that happen and how do you feel about that now?I: I wanted to create a fashion sock brand. In order to have a fashion sock brand you have to participate in a fashion show. When I got the permission to join a fashion show, only then I realised that you can't send a naked model with only socks on. That's how the first bodies were created. To create a “wow” moment for the final look, we made a flowy cape. That's how we started producing silk peignoirs. I can clearly remember the first client who bought a silk peignoir for 700 euros in the small SockBox shop. I almost fainted from happiness. That inspired me more and more. It still was called SockBox, we made silk peignoirs, sold them. We were contacted by a gentleman of Arab descent, who wanted us to open a shop in the Middle East. And we needed a name. At that time, we were already selling in the Middle East, and my clients were saying that it's pretty hard to make a connection between the name SockBox and silk peignoirs with this branding. When thinking about export, I realised that it's a problem and that we need a rebranding, and I made this decision, since the brand was still small enough to make a quick rebranding without much hassle.M: Does this name resonate with people in Saudi Arabia? People there are even more traditional than here.I: People are very traditional, you can't show any photo with a body. You can only show the clothes with no body. There are certain market conditions. But the risqué, sensual clothing itself, they like it very much. It's not much spoken about, and it must be marketed in other visual ways.M: There can be no photos of people?I: No, you can't show such clothing on people in Saudi Arabia. When a woman goes shopping in this kind of shop, there have to be at least two shop-assistants present in the room; you can't be alone. The woman doesn't speak, she indicates with her eyes what she has chosen, and she never pays for it. She makes a choice and then her husband, brother or father comes in to pay.M: In one of our conversations you mentioned that the brand essence is “beautiful at home”.I: Yes.M: I really liked what you said. It provided even more clarity about what this brand is and who it's meant for, as well as the situation and context this product is to be used in.I: The sense of self, relationship with yourself begins at home. It mostly happens when no one is around, during your “me time”. The dialogue with yourself. Clothing is a source of inspiration for me. I put on beautiful loungewear when no one is around and that's when magic happens. That's the beginning in my experience. In the shop, also in exhibitions in Paris or New York, I often hear “I don't have a home that's adequate for wearing this kind of clothing”. I think it's an open discussion. What comes first? Beautiful clothes and then a beautiful home? Or a beautiful home first and then beautiful clothing? I will tell you how it happened. We have these silk slips. They're like dresses and look amazing when combined with your beloved one's suit jacket. I once went out like that, and he said “You wore that at home. Isn't it a nightdress?”. I replied “Yes, but it's very comfortable and looks really great”. It also makes you feel a bit mysterious. You feel very free, you do what makes you comfortable. That's a brand value. Value of a women's brand. We only have female employees, by the way. And I want them to do things only in a way that's comfortable for them. When a woman is inspired, everything happens swiftly. You must have noticed it in your wife too. She sometimes ticks off every task swiftly and easily. But sometimes things are dragging.M: Yeah.I: If we talk about the Amoralle story of 14 years, I vividly remember one turning point. I was traveling back from exhibition in New York. We did very well and I was thinking about what to do next. There's this book “The ONE Thing”. It talks about how important it is in business and in life to choose one thing and focus on it. Then your day will consist of anything that moves you closer to this one thing. There's this whole method for finding this one thing. I tried to apply it to Amoralle, and I realised that we were thinking about wholesale trade at that time, we were thinking about the development of local market, also we were considering expansion of production. We were spending our time focusing on various things. After I completed all of the tasks, I concluded that there is one essential thing, which still remains my one thing, which I do in order to expand the brand. And that's online. It's very essential, valuable and necessary for any business to understand internally that the tomorrow is only online. In the online realm you converse with your client in a completely different way. If you want to develop your business online, you have to think completely differently.M: Just like with the brand essence you mentioned, “beautiful at home”. It's one essence that is difficult to catch, but when you find it, it helps arrange everything else around it. The same goes for online. You're doing specific physical things, which is your shop in Riga, but it has to serve for this one thing.I: Nowadays physical shopping is on the downturn, but it still is necessary. We want this experience of being present, we want to feel the authenticity. But I believe that the whole tomorrow will be online. And being online, letters play an enormous role. The proportion. You see the message differently, if the letter is too large or too small, or written differently.M: That's the digital interior design.

Asketic co Founder Miķelis Baštiks talking with Head of “Virši” Marketing Mārtiņš Eihmanis about rebranding and facelift as a system. How the key values of a brand are practically expressed in the daily decisions of a company.M: When did you realize that you have to go into marketing?I was arranging shirts at a skate shop, when my future boss asked me whether I would like to try. My sister went to an interview. She told them it wasn't for her, but that her brother is a fine guy and could try it out. As an assistant, you just go and do everything.M: Was it a conscious goal that you want to try to work with clients at an agency?Yes, definitely, because when you've been working with agencies for so long, you want to finally see the business result, the client's reaction, data analysis. Seeing the client side of things would be interesting. I had a cool experience with American Express brand for 2.5 years, when I had to work both with the New York and London office. I had to coordinate the local materials.M: Did you move on to “Virši” straight afterwards?No, there was “Trasta komercbanka” for 1.5 years, where I managed marketing structure.  Then I worked on Erasmus credit brand at a finance company. Had a super great experience, super strong team, super experience with media buying and media planning. Then came “Virši”. I knew of “Virši”, but I hadn't noticed them. It was interesting.M: I remember a conversation with Edgars Pētersons, when they started working with “Virši”. They made a radio ad, which developed into what we see now. Where you already involved back then?No, I wasn't. I joined them on December 1 of 2017. WKND has worked with “Virši” from the very beginning, and it was their initiative. According to the legend, “Virši” was looking for an agency that could create a radio ad for Russian-speaking audience in Riga, which still is a challenge for “Virši” and many other brands. WKND has continued their work from that day onwards.M: Those were the first ads that allowed me to understand the positioning. I heard it's for the doers, the power filling stations, a person who does and who doesn't… Those were the first campaigns when I noticed, oh, they have an idea how “Virši” as a brand wants to distinguish themselves from others, and then I tried to figure out who did that. There aren't that many brands in Latvia, where you can feel the snowball effect instead of a few one-time improvements here and there. Was it a conscious decision or did one thing lead to another? You've been a brand for 27 years, which means these changes happened during the last 5-7 years. What was the catalyst?There are several considerations. The business side is quite important, the entry into the greater Riga area with the big stations, for example, in Salaspils, Marupe, which shows the brand to a wider audience. That's one catalyst. Secondly, there are coffee products. “Virši” was the first one to introduce regularly delivered, fresh, locally roasted coffee. Coffee machine maintenance is another important aspect that people started to talk about. Thirdly, it's the business side of things, sorting out the cash flow.M: It's a big investment to renovate all stations. Not all of them, but many have the new wood-panel look. All new stations reflect the brand-identity.That was a separate task for us, when I began to work in “Virši”. The situation was still very mixed. We still gad the previous logo from the end of 90s, maybe you remember – “Virši” with a crown and an “A” at the end. That was one of the first tasks when I joined the team. Another big business-related catalyst at the shareholder level of “Virši” was the decision that they need a fresher look, because the previous one was outdated. This is how we arrived at rebranding or refreshing. It often might seem as an artistic process – I don't like this, so let's make something else. When it comes to this specific project, I could talk for 2 hours about how incredibly technical it is. When you understand what you need, what isn't working, that the logo is quite horizontal and it can't be lit up, it's not visible from the roadside, you realize you need more noticeable price signs for all stations and strategically placed roof edges, so that people even start noticing you. You know very well how this will later be distributed to all other channels, but this is the first step. The work you usually do with fonts and logo versions, colours and paletts. Then you switch to the practical side of how much it will cost. You have a network of more than 50 stations, you have new price signs, old price signs, medium price signs, roof edges. You have to compile it all, calculate the costs and implement it. And that's excluding the cost of clothes, merch and everything else.M: It's an often over-looked position. The creative concept is one thing, but the implementation is actually the deal-breaker. You have to understand how soon you can do it, in one year, two years. The really sad if you create a great concept, but it gets stuck at 10%. The fact that “Virši” knew that they have to do it played a big part. It wasn't clear how to do it and which direction to take, how much it would cost. There were a lot of uncertainties.  It took long hours of work, more than 10 meetings, also with shareholders, presentation of sketches. Another interesting stage is how you present it to the employees. Since “Virši” has been in operation for 27 years, many employees have been at the company for a long time, and then one day you announce that you're taking away the letter “A”. Why? “Virši-A” is the company I've been working at since I was young. Oh, we don't think it sounds nice. It doesn't work that way. Internally we called it the refreshment project of the brand's visual identity, which it actually was. The colours remain the same, the name is the same, the company is the same, we simply take a critical look at what we need in order to have a successful image in the market and what we don't need.M: Was it an intuitive process from the internal management's side or was there a clear brand strategy and positon?There were no guidelines or reference points that we have to be more “hipster” or “young”, according to which we create our visual identity. Our position was that we are a local company. We couldn't suddenly be mistaken for another company. We had to be “Virši”, but in a new shape.M: Do you consider those the brand values that have been clearly communicated? A local company, the idea of power and taking action. Do the persons see themselves as the doers and it's not just a superficial marketing campaign? What sustains the brand loyalty?One of the drives definitely is the fact that it's a local company and that we have a clearly defined brand platform among other brands, we're a power filling station for doers. It has turned out quite strong and stable, which allows it to develop further in several attempts. People see it and identify with it. They sympathize with it. This period starting from 2015 represents our success story. But amount of work invested is immense. The company culture is quite dynamic, we work a lot. We are doers. When someone joins the team, I tell them that it's not just a poster or a video you saw – it's our culture. M: It's great that you can feel the brand values and that it's not just something on the website. You live by them. You said you don't have many interviews, but in one you said that brand is experience. Not a poster or a campaign, but all these points of contact. I think it's a good way to view a brand. Tell me what you mean by this.The experience in “Virši” has been very good in the sense that the brand is not a logo. There are many points of contact. You drive a car, you hear the radio, you hear the tone of voice, you hear the humour. This humour can be youthful or serious, there can be just a touch of humour. And you see this logo on the roadside. Can you see it from technical viewpoint? Interior is very important, the lighting, the aroma, the air quality. Only with time you realize that these three things are quite meaningful. Then there are products, product quality and reputation, again the coffee, packaging, message on a napkin. Making people smile. The employees are on the front line and are part of the brand, and it's difficult to maintain, since they work under pressure and do a wide variety of things. These are the various aspects. Then you have to choose a brand ambassador, but who should it be? Is he local, is he a doer, is he the head of a large family, is he always funny? Yes, he is. All checks out. It's Intars Busulis. There are many points of contact, and if you succeed… I'm not saying we designed it that way and then implemented. No, the brand-building process is fluid. Step by step, you just keep your balance. I have to say big thanks to “Virši” for managing to stick with one strategic agency WKND and also to WNKD for creating a very clear concept. I we have to do something for the long-term, let's say packaging design or something else, then we always involve an agency that does a strategic assessment of the concept and the platform.M: I think that one of the hardest things is to sum up all these points of contact in one message, but it has the potential of great yield. The way you described it, starting from the highway, the audio ad, up to what's written on a napkin, the air quality and the packaging. It all creates the brand. How to align all these many factors into a correct brand personality? It involves management, marketing, the internal clarity. Is it made possible by having clear owners who still take care of the company, instead of a big corporation, where everyone focuses on their own goal? Can you even create a good brand without a clear owner?I believe that, maybe not without an owner, but when it comes to a strong, international brand, the owner can't be present everywhere. At some point at the agency we dealt with these brand guidelines, when you receive the guideline of an international brand and you have to work in compliance with them. The same goes for franchises. We create franchise provisions regarding your appearance. When you drive in, you don't know it's SIA “Mārtiņš Eihmanis”, but it looks like “Virši”.M: Do you have guidelines? To what extent do you apply them? Does it help you on a day-to-day basis?It's different for us, we're not an international company, therefore practically in all areas related to “Virši” I or someone from the marketing team has to be informed about what it is, what it will look like, and has to provide approval. We have guidelines, but they are general, and I don't think one should follow these graphic guidelines too closely. Of course, you have the logo, the protected areas, the colours and all the basics, but for anything else – the position of hats, the fuel tanks – it all has to be considered along the way. You can't do that if you're part of four, five, ten markets, then these guidelines have to be stricter.M: An interesting challenge could be how to carry over the “local doer” values to other places, where it's no longer local. How can this strong local brand handle export?That's a good question, which I can't answer right away, but we have dealt with it partially. We have a business in Russia that provides fuel to freight companies. We have partners outside of Latvia, in the Baltics and Russia. We have to communicate with them. When we internally defined our company values, e-check for companies, we did it thoroughly at the level of each station. Teams came together and wrote down what they think are the values of “Virši”, we funnelled them until we reached the result. One of the values we found is that our power is in our roots. We worded it this way so that it wouldn't specify our local or Latvian roots and it could also be appreciated by Russians, Belarussians, and Ukrainians, as well as Lithuanians and Estonians. For them too, their power is in their roots, which allows them to identify with it. Our hypothesis, if we would reach outwards, is that you could carry over such value. The second value of “Virši” - enthusiasm is our fuel. You can translate it, and we have already. The third value is people for people. They are universal, and you can carry them over in a way.M: Did all 50-60 stations really participate in the establishment of brand values?Yes.  Registration took place in groups, because if you're a small structural unit with two-three people it's hard to come up with ideas, so we grouped two, three structural units together. We have quarterly management meetings, where all teams get together in a large room, all values have been gathered, but they fight over them once again. We have a very lively environment, anybody can stand up and loudly declare that something doesn't make sense and that they disagree.M: You're the Head of Marketing Department, you talk and think a lot about brands, but those actually are two different parts. In branding you have to think long-term, but marketing means more tactical things. How do you separate them? The quick marketing decisions and the long-term brand progression.I can put ads under the word “quick” right away. We don't have a separate advertisement sub-division, like there is at LMT, because their structure is so huge. Regarding branding decisions, it would be silly to call it foresight, but some sort of foresight is present always, because you can never be absolutely sure that this decision will bring us this and that business result. It's a trial-and-fail approach. You're aware that the things you implement within this project will be present in the long-term, for example, the interior or the packaging. I could show you two mood boards for packaging. It's like the layers of paint that peel off over time. You can see that this year there was this packaging, then there was this, and they are all somehow present at the station, when you come in. And then one year, you clear it all out and replace with fresh ones. What you see on the coffee package I brought, the same thing is on the cup, on hot dog and burger packaging. It even shows up in outdoor ads. The same goes for the interior, when we looked at it with H2E Design Studio, we saw that various elements have been gathered over time, but then we cleared it out, and, once we built or renovated a station, we implemented the clean, thought-out design. H2E took notice of “Virši” values, graphic guidelines and chose materials, coordinated them. These are the long-term decisions, and you try to link them with the values.M: What do you think the marketing and branding is moving towards in the next two, three, five years?Even small, local brands are becoming increasingly thought-out and stable with more legs. I can't fully agree to this, but brands are sometimes likened to religion, which provides the function and need of religion in people's lives, when the huge modern brands, which are quite multi-layered, rich and with a distinctive value definition, sort of replace these functions. I don't want to say it's really so, but for people who need something to stand for or stand against, if he supports meat or the animals, then it's easier to make a decision. He will buy those sneakers, hat or product. Brands become much more integrated in the cultural space. In some cases you're provided with a cultural construct.M: When you read about brands, historically our local villages determined our whole cultural space – how you dress, what you eat, who you fight against, what songs you sing – it was all determined by the local cultural space. The place where you were born and grew up, it became your identity. Now we live in a cosmopolitan age of the Internet, where the identities are so mixed together. You might be born in Tukums, Africa or India, but you may like a brand with such-and-such values. Brands are becoming the creators of personal identity constructs just as much as politics, music, and religion. You attach these things and create your identity. They are easier to assume than religion, which is too fundamental. You can take like fifteen, twenty brands, switch them out if you don't like them, thus creating your cultural space. You identify yourself with these ten, twenty, thirty brands. The fact that you apply these values very clearly, it attracts the person who is searching for a brand that can give him something. If I take “Virši”, you know I'm a doer, I stand for those who appreciate their roots. I look at three others and they don't speak to me. The price, the convenience, the location are okay, but there's no clear brand promise that I can attach. I think that “Virši” have succeeded in this aspect, which is a big plus that I like a lot. You said you worked at a skate shop while you studied. I think that the skating culture has historically been very rich with various interesting brands. Now working in a big company, taking into account your experience, what do you think makes brand interesting and juicy for anybody? And when does it become just a big, boring corporation?Anything that is individual and different is interesting. The same applies to models in show-windows. They're always a bit peculiar. If you make it too common so that it check all the boxes, it will be completely amorphous. The same goes for brands. That's why the skating brands are so interesting. They can be complete punks, they don't care. They create a start-up, 300 boards with their own designs and go bankrupt. It's rock 'n' roll, let's do it. That's why they're so alive and real.M: You might think that skating brands are small and that's why they can afford to act this way. But then look at Elon Musk, he's also a punk. You can make even a large company very interesting, but need a personality that can carry it. So it doesn't become lukewarm, as you said.Elon Musk is like Tony Stark. We're now watching Iron Man home with the kids. We watched the second part. There's this charm, Tony Stark is like a rock star, performing in front of a large audience. The same goes for Elon Musk. He's so stable and prosperous that he makes his own rules, he can afford to object to certain states and jurisdictions.M: The new independent skating brands can afford the same thing. If the big companies can and the small companies can, are the average ones those that can't?It's caution and business decisions based on numbers. Try and find a chief brand officer who convinces all business people that you have to do something crazy just so you can stay on the top of mind of your audience.M: What brands do you find interesting?I won't be able to name brands and explain why. I will say that right now I'm mostly attracted by quality. I assess brands based on communication and product quality. Which brands do I like? I like the brand “Intars Busulis”. Not because he represents “Virši”, but because he's great at consistently doing what he does. Well, we know Intars Busulis is a brand. He expresses himself in various directions, he never forgets rock ‘n' roll. I really like the brand “Puiku alfabēts” by my wife. It's not just a book, it's a brand. When she started drawing and writing the stories, back before the book was published, she was involving the audience, asked feedback on stories, published illustrations and colouring pages. Namely, she was growing a bigger and bigger audience.M: Work with the audience. That's actually really great, if you can start with building an audience and then create a product, and not the other way around.Yes, but now it's sort of a trend.M: It's simply the way you should do it. First the audience, then the product.Then comes a moment, when you have to decide what's next. There are people who gather an audience by building or renovating a house in Tuscany. There's one such Instagram account, Latvians in Tuscany renovating an old house. Following them is like an adventure, you're participating. But what happens when the renovations are complete? The same goes for “Puiku alfabēts”. It's published, it's done, so what's next?M: That's a cool problem to have. Thanks for coming.Thanks for the invitation.Mārtiņš Eihmanishttps://www.linkedin.com/in/martinseihmanis/?originalSubdomain=lvhttps://www.virsi.lv/lvSubscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

Asketic co Founder Miķelis Baštiks talking with Head of “Printful” Marketing Raitis Puriņš, about growing a marketing team, building and monetizing your audience.M: Much has already been said about the growth of Printful, but I find your growth as the Marketing Team Leader even more interesting. You started from a very small team of five, now you are more than 100. There are many things to unpack. How to lead a team of five and then switch to a much larger team is a conversation of its own. But how has the daily life changed for you personally? I don't know how much you have reflected upon it yourself, but it would be interesting to hear.R: Since day one my position was the Head of Marketing Unit at Printful, however, when you have a team of five, you're not really a manager. The whole office consisted of 30 or so employees, I was number 35. You're not a manager, you learn to become one afterwards. In the beginning you're thrown into unknown waters and you try to swim out. Along the way you learn to become a manager. The first and most difficult realization is the ability to delegate and trust others. When you really become a manager, you think, okay, this person can do this instead of me. He might do it slower at first or take a different approach, but he will catch on. At first, I always put 100% trust into a person when I give a task. It's not like I let them sink or swim, instead I become a beacon that provides help and checks in to see if he's on the right track. Afterwards he has to grow by himself and you witness the progress. Trust is something to be applied to your own colleagues. M: How does it look in daily life? Do you have daily, weekly check-ins? It's clear you have to trust and provide freedom, but there has to be some accountability. Where have you found the balance?R: We have a framework, at the company there's a presentation “How not to die at Printful”. The idea is that it's better to manage a team of fifty or a project, since the company is so big and one project encompasses a large amount of people. There are a few ways you can look at that. One framework provides that every person has its own goal that he has come here to do and he has to achieve in 3 months, 6 months. He knows what he has to complete. One step further, everyone has a number that drives him. The goal of my team could be revenue. You can influence any team, when you set them a number that they are responsible for. If it's the amount of new clients in Australia, then in becomes your drive and all your activities within the project are focused on that. You never come and talk randomly; you always focus on your goal. Managers don't have to keep everything on their mind - it's all written down, you just check in and see whether your team is on the right track.M: There are so many teams. If one team learns something or tests something, are there any systems for not making the same mistakes twice? Is there a way to transfer the know-how of one team to another when there are so many?R: We provide a blueprint or a framework of previous successful approaches, so you don't have to do your own trial and error; instead you have an outline for your new project. In a rapidly growing company, the only constant is change. You have to be okay with facing changes. Not just because you feel like it, but with purpose to be able to work better. You can't lead a team otherwise, whether those are 5 people or 100. Your manager can change or something else. I know that even I have to constantly keep learning. The rules keep changing, and marketing changes too. I actually like it, the discomfort of not knowing something. No one taught me at school how to lead a marketing team of 100 people. If someone knows such school, let me know. Otherwise you just do you best.M: Of course you learn a lot of things along the way, but can you identify a few things that have helped you on the journey from a single digit team to a three digit team. How did your life look before and how does it look now?R: The main thing that I also remind my project colleagues is that you have to ensure you're your partners share accountability for what you are working on. Another thing I remind my team is that there's no such thing as over-communication, especially internal over-communication. We previously had a situation when the IT team came to me and said that an e-mail should be sent out about an update. Okay, when are you going to launch it? Yesterday. So you were kept out of the loop, because it was assumed that you could do this very quickly anyways. It's important to ensure accountability so that you are aware about a project from day one and can contribute. We also have a huge client support team, more than 200 people globally. The company has to ensure constant internal communication about what you're going to do and what projects are happening, the communication is needed above all. The bigger the team gets, the more important it becomes.M: You once mentioned personal growth and how you sometimes write to marketing managers of big companies to ask something, and most of the time you actually receive answers. Is it something you would do in other areas? Meaning, proactively apply the example of a predecessor. And those times when you have received an answer, what have you learned from your predecessors in different companies, but in the same category or position?R: I have never studied marketing, I know almost no theory, and therefore all I've learned comes from other colleagues, also from my previous workplaces. I don't even remember who gave me the idea that you need a mentor. It's less about learning. When teams are of similar size, we switch charts. It was one of my challenges when my team reached 50 members. Okay, I need a structure for scaling or I will die and won't be able to manage it all. You find out what each team is doing, why it's so large, what works, what doesn't. Secondly, you switch agencies and tools. That allows you to adapt it to yourself. I've also joined several groups, there's a DGMG community for B2B marketing. You can ask your question to the crowd or just search for account based marketing, which isn't a well-known term in Latvia. I don't even know who I could ask that in Latvia. This allows you to gain more from real people who have done this, instead from a blog post, where you don't know if this information has been used in practice.M: What else has helped you to learn and grow along the way? This is a cool example of reaching out and learning from the experience of others. But is there anything else?R: Experiments, for example. Often we don't know if something would work and get good results. You just try and see whether it would work. You learn from mistakes. There are projects from last year where I have lost more than 100 000 dollars, without bringing any gain to the company. But I know I have spent several millions that have benefitted us.M: If you could go get coffee with three marketing people from around the world, who would they be?R: I'm more interested in branding right now. I would like to understand performance checks, I like to measure all technical things. If you're spending a lot of money for Super Bowl ads, you need a good justification for that and need to know how to do it correctly. From the branding point of view, my favourite is Coca-Cola. It's the reason why Santa Claus is wearing a red suit. Amazing! Also Apple. The product plays a big part of it, but they're also doing cool things with the brand.M: If you're more interested in branding now, could you unpack the topics that you're interested in?R: Many say that brand comes from the management. At Printful, the management is me. If I want to invest a bigger team, resources or money in this, then I need strong arguments for why we're going to do this. We'll see the results after three, four years, so why do we need to invest a large amount of money, since the market is huge. I still can't do this. It's not like we don't have a brand. The brand is everything that the company has done all these years. But I'm still missing something for us to scale and do it correctly. The right people, the right team? I don't know.M: You said there are 8 regions. Is the brand the same everywhere or do you build it differently for each region?R: We don't think about branding in each region that much, we like the framework “jobs to be done”. We try to find a person who we can help in achieving what he wants.M: Can you tell me more about the framework “jobs to be done”? How do you implement it in practice?R: First, you want to create an e-commerce shop, maybe you have an Instagram following you want to sell to or an existing business, or you want to create a merch line. Second, you want to order something for yourself. We enable you to do that easily, but you need to find answers to many questions. Who will you sell the shirt to? Do you have a design to print? How will you integrate it? For how much will you sell? Then you have to bring people to the website to buy something. A side-product from all this is that we educate clients. The marketing team is teaching others about marketing. All our resources are directed this way. It's much more beneficial to think about the person's dream than to think about benefitting from them driving a BWM. That's why we're very focused on this work. M: You have mentioned content marketing as one of the things you're doing. Do you still think it's working? When looking at the marketing landscape, do you see other things to focus on in the future? R: Content marketing is everywhere, including what we're doing. It's something you polish and put out. Content marketing can be measured in many different ways. The best effect is when any text that we publish in a blog or on website gets indexed on Google. That enables you to first find Printful in organic results just by searching. In content marketing you also create your image. I, by being in podcasts, am creating an image of being an expert on some topic, which makes people want to talk to me. It's similar for companies. If you create content about something, people will have an opinion about you, which goes along with branding. Okay, they know about this thing, probably I should work with them to ensure quality. You just have to create content, otherwise you won't understand what you have to do here. The idea of starting an e-commerce shop is great, but there a lot of ways to do it. The content helps us guide the creator through this tunnel towards a shop and making sales. M: What would be a go-to for potential clients who would like to create a new brand to be sold through Printful and create their content marketing?R: You have to build an audience. I don't have many examples nor experience, but many successful examples show that you can, for example, grow an Instagram account for dog-lovers and monetize it. You need a data base. You can also build hype by making an e-mail list, because you have to start somewhere, e-mail can't be your main channel. You can't send to some list, it has to be legal. The next channels are channels based on captured interest. From paid channels I can mention Google, which allows you to be found as an interesting author through searching. Then it's about whether the content on the website is enough. You create and all the elements mix together. It's hard to name one. Everything is organic game. It won't happen in one day. You'll see the results in the next few months. It's a long-term work.M: Printful grew very quickly, in just a couple of years. Was it a coincidence of showing up in the right time with the right product? Or was it the skill? I wonder if another company from a different category could duplicate what you did to grow five times or ten times quicker as they would otherwise?R: One mould that we have is “solve your problem”. Before Printful, there was Startup Vitamins, which still sells motivational posters. We needed them, because the offices of Draugiem.lv needed cool posters. Every cool office had those, so we needed them too. Didn't have them, so we designed some and started to sell. We did okay overall. We mostly printed posters, so we started to think about t-shirts and other things. I started searching for someone who could do it on demand, because we didn't know if they would sell. This niche turned out to be quite empty, so we decided to take it. Because again, what we're doing – we're solving our problem. The solution is so simple. In the end we printed our shirts, but it was planned out to be as fast and efficient as possible and with less costs.M: Do you feel a difference between the environments of Asia, Europe and North America when it comes to your clients?R: We haven't really delved into that. There might reasons why one is more successful and one isn't, but there aren't any cardinal differences. These reasons are mostly general. In japan, in order to switch your full-time job you need a special reason. In USA, side-hustling is very typical, you need to have an extra job to survive. You can drive an Uber or create an e-commerce shop. While in Germany and Scandinavia, you don't have such motivation. If you're happy with your job, you just have a beer and rest in your free time. You have other reasons for using Printful. In Germany, you need trust badges on your website for them to believe you're legit. There are some specifics, but it's not mainstream and isn't affecting much. We adapt.M: When you talked about brand development and marketing, one of the ways to grow a brand is word-of-mouth. One of your clients has successfully built his business. I think you mentioned that your tagline is “be your own boss”. This one successful person tells it to someone else, who also finds courage to try. For a company as big as yours, is such word-of-mouth still an important channel and tool?R: 100% yes! We might be big in Latvia, but the niche we can fill is still very small. How many e-commerce people in the world would sell printed goods and know about Printful? Not many. So this requires a constant drive. Social media stars rise every day nowadays, and they have an audience that can be reached more easily than ever, therefore it is important. The best approach is to be good at what you do. There's a guy who did a built-in kitchen for me. I have recommended him to at least 7 people, just because I'm satisfied with his job. If someone has a need, I will recommend him. And so it continues. It's the same for a company. It just happens in a bigger scale. When there's a chance to make a recommendation and someone has had good experience with you, he will recommend you, because it's something new he hasn't seen before. They become brand ambassadors. You don't pay them, you can only motivate them to do this more.M: This big trend of “creative economy” goes hand in hand with what you are doing with building an audience. MrBeast just launched his chocolate brand, which is super successful. He has built an enormous audience on YouTube, he launches one product after another. He has a chocolate or snack company. When you look at this category and also what you're doing with personalization and enabling people to be their own boss, do you see how this category develops and how big is the potential?R: That's one of the reasons why us too are developing and growing. Building an audience nowadays is much easier than it was twenty years ago. You can use the thing you have created – video, music, design –to captivate this person who wants to be associated with you, and, brutally speaking, you can monetize it. The ultimate goal is business. You create an audience and monetize it. One of my favourite examples recently are musicians. Musicians inspire passion in people. You follow them. If you like the music, you go to concerts and are ready to spend money. There are a lot of music bands, any one of them can start offering their merch.M: You've experienced an amazing and quick growth during the last five years. Do you have a vision for the following five years?R: We spend such a big part of life working. But in the end you work in order to be able to rest and live. The one thing on my plan is that I need more vacation days. If you work so much, you need time for resting, enjoy the fruits of your labour, spend time with family. There is still a lot of potential in Printful for development so you don't get bored. At some point I will address that too. M: What helped you to overcome the desire to do everything by yourself? I think that a lot of practical people are stuck in this bottleneck and are not ready to release the control.R: For example, if you have to send an e-mail, we agree on a period for doing it. Let's say, I will do it by Friday, but we agree that you will send me the contents by Thursday. If you are aware of the time period when it will happen and get this information, then you don't have to worry whether everything will be done on time. You just get a message that this is done. This has to be agreed upon. Then you can be sure that this person will check in with you that the text is ready, and on Friday you can confirm that everything is done. There have been occasions when I start writing e-mails and then have to edit this and that. When you start to delegate, the thing that you're afraid of is that something won't be done at all or in the quality you want. You just have to introduce these middle points. And any of these points can have a deadline. This way you can free your mind, because the computer will notify you at the right time. And you do the same thing with your team. You just write things down, you don't try to keep 10 things in mind. You say, this is our structure, these are the tasks, and this is the next step. By this time you have to do the following. If not, then you can start to micro-manage something else. That's where the trust comes from, just go through the game rules.M: Thank you.R: Cool, thank you.Raitis Puriņšhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/raitispurins/?originalSubdomain=lvhttps://www.printful.com/Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

This time we're meeting Krists Dārziņš, a designer who has used this pandemic to progress from client projects to his own company and sell digital products worldwide. M: As for the reason I wanted to talk to you, we had a phone conversation at the beginning of this year and you told me about your plan to transition from client-based projects to various self-initiative projects, while ensuring the necessary workflow, within this year. When we contacted during the second half of this year, you told me you had succeeded.K: Yes.M: It's interesting to take a moment to reflect on it and talk about the “why” and “how”. It would be a great place to start, if you could tell us about the idea behind these self-initiative projects and about the very beginning.K: It all began in March 2020, just like for many designers and not just designers. The pandemic started, causing a lot of restrictions in Latvia as well. At that moment I had three clients, namely, three projects - two with restaurant identities and one with tourism agency identity. A killer-combo. Everything stopped in literally one week. I realised that I had two kids and a wife at home and that everything was bad. The survival instinct switched on and basically that same week I figured out that the fastest way to earn something would be to create a product for designers, which I'm quite knowledgeable in. I've realized that it's best play to your strengths. And that's what happened. When I considered how to present it all to the audience, Readymag came to mind, where you can create simple webpages. If I made it pretty, I could submit it to their gallery, and maybe they would show it to their designers. That's exactly how it happened. I created a product – a very simple vector-based outlined tech mockup. Actually it wasn't much of a mockup, people just could insert their photos in the vectors of iPhones, iMacs and various devices. I created the page, it took an extra day, and the following day Readymag put it on their gallery. It happened quite quickly, and the sales began the very first day.M: On the very first day? Super! That must be a great feeling.K: The moment when money starts to come in from random people and not from my clients, that's when you realise this could be something bigger. If I'm not mistaken, the price was 12 or 19 dollars per item. I had named the whole project “portfolio-ready mockup”. And on the next day… I had no expectations, everything happened so quickly, I took the bull by the horns – I called Mārcis Loķis. We had previously worked on some projects, he's a 3D animator, a talented guy. I knew we work well together. I had this feeling that I should call him, since I knew I wouldn't be able to create too many outlined vector-based mockups, nor could I do photography, so I needed somebody to work with. I told Mārcis about this thing and asked how his projects are doing. He said that all projects shut down within a week for him as well. It was a good timing, so we started to create together with iPhones, iPads etc. And that's how we started cashing in.M: That's the first stage. Could you tell me about what happens three months down the line? When you realized the first wave has passed and you have to start building a community of people, an audience, you have zero followers on Instagram and the project is brand new. What are the first steps afterwards? Okay, yeah, Readymag posted it, but how do you maintain a long-term flow?K: That's exactly how it happened. When Readymag posts it, it gets pushed down by new creations and the product's hype disappears quite quickly. Even though the first product that I created in one day, it continued to be our most profitable product for half a year, which was surprising. We still continued, knowing the product would stop earning money one day, and kept making new product channels. That was one thing. Secondly, we realised we wouldn't be able to gain the audience by ourselves that simply. We had no experience doing that, we're no trend-setters, so we needed an outside help. We found a shop “YouWorkForThem”, where assets already were being sold, and their style was similar to ours, so we applied to this shop. Yeah, cool, jump in. We posted there, which created an additional income channel for us. We no longer had to think about marketing that much. Someone else did that in our stead. M: What was the division? How much was sold by others and how many clients you attracted by yourselves?K: At “YouWorkForThem” it's very simple. If you're selling something, it's 50:50. That's how we lived for quite a while, even recently “YouWorkForThem” was a great support for us, as well as “Creative Market”. Designers, who use these assets, would use these markets, buy and sell on this platform. Regarding what we sell by ourselves… It has been our goal recently  to lure this income over to our shop, so we're no longer that dependent on “YouWorkForThem” or other shops. We don't know their algorithms and how it all works, we have to share profit with them. That was our goal, and now most of our income comes from our shop. Besides we have gradually grown our audience, mostly based on our hope that people will appreciate quality stuff.M: What was it in your language and style that allowed you to believe that this is worth investing and creating? And what do you think the audience noticed when they chose you among plenty of others?K: If you're an agency or a professional designer and you need a good product, while saving your own time on creating mockups, there aren't that many sensible options. That's what we understood over time, that there are no products. So we developed our signature and style. One of our specifics is that Mārcis creates the 3D part of it all. If some mockups are based on photography, this signature automatically develops as well.M: One cool thing you mentioned is that your first product was very simple, a vector-based visualisation, but when it comes to business ideas, you don't always have to strive for the most difficult, most innovative solution. Sometimes a simple, clear solution is what works the best, and that's a very good lesson. You don't have to overly complicate the beginning, you can get something out very quickly, in one day, like you said, and your first sales the very next day.K: Yes, that's right. Designers tend to be over-thinkers, like, will this be good enough and pretty enough. But in this case, the Covid had started and the survival instinct overpowered the designer instinct. You simply had to publish something, and you just think in your head, what you can put out quickly.M: What channels worked for you in reaching the audience most efficiently? Like Instagram, newsletters. Which of all that helped you in practice? And what was a waste of your time?K: Basically, Instagram just like Facebook is very unreliable. Okay, you decide to do one post every day at four o'clock. You keep doing that and Instagram likes you, but if you miss just one day, the friendship is over. The following day gets worse, you have less “likes”, less impressions, and everything is bad. I have realised that you have to activate your personal Twitter account. People really like when someone is writing in person, designers can get along with designers better, because if we would communicate as the company “Supply.Family”, the contact wouldn't be the same.M: Have you had any conclusions? For example, that simple product was a best-seller for a long time. Maybe you have other outside insights regarding designers.K: I divide our products in two segments. One is the practical mockups, for example, business cards. They look normal and plain, but they sell well. And then there are lightboxes, the sexy mockups that look really cool and attract attention, but the sales are lower, because they are less practical. Besides, we sell not only mockups, we have Photoshop effects, graphics etc. We have grown our shop, by adding other designers. We now also have fonts, and it all has blended together.M: How has this whole process changed you as a designer? How you see the things you create and who do you create them for, since previously you worked for clients. It's the same tools, but a completely different psychology in your head. Now you create yourself, try to sell by yourself.K: I basically create products for myself, by considering what I myself would like. That is our audience, and if I like it, others would like it as well. It's very easy.M: Has the process itself changed? Do you work faster or do you invest four times as much time?K: No, no, in that sense it's a skill as any other skill. It's mockup creation, which we specialize in more than in Photoshop effects. We know the correct techniques for achieving the best result, and that's how we work. The speed and quality has definitely improved.M: Speaking about brands, if we visit your website, there is a wide range of brands, not just one. I tried to write them down, it's Become Family, Studio Family, Supply Family, The Ministry, Apex Design Store, you have your Wallpaper. What's the structure you have created, what's the idea behind this and why have you divided various projects under completely different domains and brands?K: You know, during the last few years we have tried to figure out what is it that we're aiming for and what we are? Become Family was the studio from back when created brands. Become Family was the family, the body of it all. All these projects you listed are under this Family, as well as our studio, which is Studio Family. And Studio Family creates products, mockups etc. Apex is for merchandise, various posters and similar things. We have tried to divide it to make it easier for ourselves. When you work on brands, you need a system. I need a system, so it's clear to me what I'm working on, what I need to pay more attention to.M: Do you keep an inner account on how much time you spend on which project and how much they earn?You know, the survival instinct is still intact and we pay attention to what is earning more, which is Supply Family with all its templates etc. If we spend time on Supply and create new products, those will be products that will be sold additionally. If we can afford to not do that, then we don't do it and we create something else.M: How do you feel about the division between the prevailing digital products and the physical products? The physical products have to be packaged, brought to post office, you have to ship them, print them. How do you see this division?K: With digital products it's super simple. When someone asks me, I compare it to selling kebabs. You make one kebab from a tomato you have grown, from meat you have grown as well. You put it together, create one item and then sell for several years. And you don't need Wolt, a courier, it just gets delivered via e-mail.M: I've noticed that you have started to add an NFT licence option to several projects. Can you tell me why and what do you find interesting in that? What's the idea behind doing that?K: Regarding NFTs, we're just feeling around, seeing where it all will go. I have mixed feelings about NFTs and Crypto in general. We're okay with people creating it, so we added the option for people to add one licence, since we want people to have the uniqueness of a piece of art, so you can't generate ten thousand faces and sell them.M: Your website has an option to purchase creations with an NFT licence. It's a very primitive question, but how does it work in practice?K: When it comes to these templates, Photoshop graphics and any other thing, we don't sell the file itself, we sell licences. All designers know that you can download Photoshop via torrents and the same goes for mockups. But what we sell are licences. We have various licences, commercial, commercial plaza, it depends on the buyer, what it's intended for. An NFT licence is simply what you have purchased, what you are allowed to do with the product. It's just a reference that the person has purchased and NFT licence. And each product has only one NFT licence.M: One of your clients is Adobe, the great software giant. Can you tell me about how that came to be, what you did for them, and what was the experience, when compared to your experience of several years here with local clients?K: Actually they contacted us at the end of last year, it was December 2020. An Adobe representative wrote to us, it was a complete shock. At first I didn't believe it, I thought it was a middleman of a middleman. I don't know where they saw those products, in Creative Market or Behance, but they liked them. They said they wanted to put them in their Discover Portal, and of course we were like “Yes, sure!”. Soon afterwards we had calls with several people, everyone was very open-minded. It was the best client you could get.M: Did they order something new or something from the existing products?K: We had a whole list of things we could make that we discussed during this call. Me and Mārcis sat down with this list of products - various mockups, Photoshop effects, after-effects, and just made them one by one.M: What's the behind-the-scenes process?K: You know, we made a quite comprehensive list for them to choose from. They call us saying that they want everything. I was like, okay, you want everything. So we just keep going through this list, it's still not completed.M: Do you feel a feedback regarding your products and brand when the audience sees you on Adobe site and link it back to you?K: Yes, we do get that, less than we expected, but we do get constant feedback, and people are writing good comments and sending messages.M: What's the geographical division? I assume it's mostly export and that it's not a local Latvian client. Is it North America or the whole world?K: Since March 2020, when I created the first product, there have been three purchases made in Latvia. If I remember correctly, America currently is at 40-45%, it's definitely the biggest market, so we try to adjust the communication to West coast.M:What are three take-aways from your whole experience with projects? A few nuggets of wisdom that you could leave us with?K: Don't be afraid to change your career, that's one. When the first money comes in, you're like, hey, I can earn it differently. You don't have to be afraid of something fresh in your life. Secondly, think foreign. That pertains to Latvian designers, absolutely. It depends on the set-up of each person. Maybe you don't have to work full-time with an ad agency and create banners, maybe you can do something else. You have to push yourself to do something more serious. Thirdly, what's very important for designers, it's to believe in your abilities, don't listen to bad comments. Maybe it sounds boring, but it's true. You get bad comments as well, and, I apologize, but mostly from Latvians. Don't pay attention to those and keep going in the best conscience and create good things of good quality.M: Thank you, Krists, for coming, and we're looking forward to new things from your Family.Krists Dārziņš:https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristsdarzins/https://www.kristsdarzins.design/https://become.family/Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

This time our guest is designer Germans Ermičs. We talk about borders between art and design, and business side of design practice.M: Glad to see you in such form after 11 years. Our previous video interview was 11 years ago. We had the “Naked Conversations”, and there are few things that will be interesting to look back on. Back then you were strictly a graphic designer. You made the layout for Veto Magazine. When I think about you, what jumps out to me is what has happened in your work and career during the past eleven years since we last spoke. You worked in one design branch and now you work in another design branch which is borderline art and architecture. How do you look at your decade? How has it changed you in the design sense? How did you see it then and how do you see the design now? G: Ten years ago I had just graduated from the Design Academy. I tried to find myself and understand what I like, what I'm capable of and what direction should I take. Even back then I said that I want to step away from graphic design in order to apply what I learned in the Design Academy, work with materials and forms, think about interior, design objects etc... That was still at fantasy level, none of it was actualized since it was the very beginning. Back then I said it out loud, while still not quite believing and seeing it. After Riga, I went back to Amsterdam to work at various design studious to get a sense of how business is built, how to work with clients, since all my previous experience was very local and among friends, it concerned small orders and graphic design. I had no experience with being within a structure. It was very important, so that in three years I could leave and create my own studio. At that moment you take a huge risk, cut off everything and start to focus on what you'd like to do, without really knowing what that is. It was a really cool moment of uncertainty. I was stuck between several directions, and what helped me was the Design Academy network and being in Netherlands, because I studied there, and I was drawn in by the community, where I still remain now.M: What do you think about the comment that your latest work is a zone between several branches – art, design and architecture? What is design and art to you and where do you see yourself in all that?G: As I said, at the beginning I was stuck between several directions. I tried to understand if I could be an industrial designer and work with companies, create products and be technical. At that moment all directions were still a possibility, however my skills were limited. I learned that my strengths are working with materials and conceptual project planning that are borderline art, design, installations. It's a separate niche, a whole market that exists between art and design – sculptural design. Designers and artists work with relatively industrial objects and furniture, but they are created as unique and sculptural objects, which I find very interesting, because it allows you to find your signature style and material and express yourself. They are usable objects, but they serve as decoration next to works of art. The niche that I work in is very interesting to me, it allows me to freely work in various scales. It can be a small object, an installation. You just adapt it to your signature and type of work. It also creates a demand for you. New projects, new challenges that enable you to grow. For example, if I create something small, I'm often struck by what kind of people are attracted by that. When working with architects or interior designers, you get involved in projects and provided with new contexts. In that sense, the work that I do daily varies quite a lot. All the things you mentioned – architecture, interior design or object design, it mostly applies to how I work with materials.M: It means that the difference between industrial design and your design work is that the product is not mass produced.G: Yes, they mostly are limited-amount objects, gallery objects come in limited amount of eight or twelve. It depends on the object. But mostly they exist as unique objects. It can be a site-specific installation or something really unique, specially made for a specific project or client.M: It means that the design object you create cannot be purchased in physical or online shops, but you can buy it in a gallery, or you can order it as a special piece of art.G: Yes, I work with galleries and architects in specific projects, and I cooperate with brands in projects of various scale. Those are not easily accessible products, but the internet is huge and people find you in the most interesting ways, starting from Pinterest, Facebook and Instagram etc. By the way, it's an interesting moment – the way people stumble upon your work, how they initiate communication with you.M: What are some of the most interesting situations?G: Back in 2015, I wasn't using Instagram professionally, but I used it to show my friends where I am and what I eat. There was a work that I was showing in Milan, and people from New York Times had taken a photo and posted it in one of their design pages. That same day I got a call from a designer in New York, and she asked me how much my works cost. I was like, how do you know what I'm showing here and how did you find me? I just couldn't believe that it could happen so fast. It was the very beginning and that's when I understood it really works that way. I believe in physical contact between people and communication, when you are present, you meet people and create a relationship of sorts. It doesn't happen quickly and it's how I have made the most interesting contacts, by being there and showing my work, by contacting people year after year, by meeting in various events. The design and art scene isn't very big, it consists of the same events in the calendar, people only travel and meet. I definitely advise new designers to try to break out of the internet and the borders of their country.M: As a standard, you would think design is something where you have a client or a task, but art is your self-expression based on your own initiative. Like you said, you work in-between these two things. Can you tell me about your process, where you begin with your own initiative, which more resembles art, but also involves a client? How do you set your boundaries regarding what is design and what is art?G: For about a year there has been a momentum where you just work according to the developed formula or ideas. Or there are people who come to you with specific requests or they want to develop something with you. At the very beginning, you, of course, don't have a problem to solve, in the best case scenario you can create a problem and then try to solve it. That was the interesting moment when I began to work, you invent something and you have no idea if anyone will be interested in it. Whether after the exhibition you will be broke and looking for a job or you'll be able to continue and survive until the next year. I got very lucky after the first year, when in 2015 I showed my first collection in Milan. That's when I thought that either everything is about to happen or I will come home and look for a job. At that moment you start with a clean idea and materials in order to introduce yourself.M: You said that after the studies you were interested how business is built in the design sector where there are design studios with individual models. Can you outline the business model in your situation? In art there's one way how art is monetized. In standard studios you fulfil incoming orders. Your work consists partially of your own initiative, where you develop new ideas, create demand and then get orders. How do you structurize the creative side of business?G: At the very beginning, when I started my design practice, I made several important decisions. One of these decisions was that I will focus only on the design work. In Netherlands it's a common practice that many designers are also the craftsmen, they find unique material compositions and forms, they work, they produce, they have people who make these things. I made a decision that I don't want to do that. Not because I found it difficult or bad, but I just understood that I would rather focus solely on the design work and look for manufacturers and craftsmen to cooperate with in the execution of these orders. When it comes to business, the set-up is as follows: you have collections that are given to galleries and presented. That part is sold and exhibited and it's an investment that the gallery makes. There are daily tasks. Since the material I work with is quite unique, I have the opportunity to use it very diversely. We have more simple money jobs and then we have gallery jobs. It's a balance between these two things, which allows me to invest in the works I create on my own initiative, where you just invest and see if it works. It works well for PR. At the end of the day, you only have as many hours as you have. You can't do everything. You want to have an interesting job. It's not always about money, but it's essential that you're able to support your business.M: What do you do from the creative business side in order to be sure that after two, three years someone will come and invite you to collaborate on a project?G: Well said about the two, three years. It always takes quite a lot of time. You create something that seems interesting to you and maybe to someone else, then usually comes a media wave, Instagram explodes, but the monetization doesn't happen so fast. I experienced it in 2017 with the first chair I made. The media coverage was great, but the projects, the selling and buying doesn't just happen – you have to work hard on that. You mentioned exhibitions, I've always thought it's essential that people meet you and see your work. I've also always paid attention to having excellent photos that you can show on media and internet. At the end your work mostly exists on the internet. Exhibitions take place for a month, two months. The exhibition is seen by a few hundred people, but the rest will exist on the internet, and I think it's very important. I try to actively participate in exhibitions. Of course, there have been much less of those for almost two years. I work with media. Every now and then I try to create new projects. It's important to surface now and then and show you're still there. As with the romantic idea of being a designer and managing a studio, your daily work actually involves sitting down while you write e-mails and call people, and that's the truth. And then there a few hours at the evening when you can draw and think with a clear head about some cool ideas. It's mostly a communication that you continue to initiate, develop and renew in all sorts of ways.M: You are currently trying to get into a new material, into new branches. One way would be to start working with glass, get really deep into that and become a great expert in respect of one material, however you have now chosen to take up a completely new material and evolve yourself with this one and then the next one. What is your thinking behind this diversification of materials instead of getting deep into one material?G: I have gone quite far with glass and I still find it interesting, surprising and challenging. Things will always differ from project to project, but I have always stressed that I'm not a glass designer or artist, it's a phase that I'm currently working in. I'm mostly interested in colour; work with colour as an idea, as a form. Now, getting into natural stone, I'm interested in the natural pattern of stone and the tangible texture I can create. In general, the idea is exactly the same as with colour. The colour is what we see spread out flat or on the screen and I work towards proving the colour with form in clear glass. Now I'm thinking about marble, which is always smooth, perfectly polished. How to accentuate the natural beauty with texture. It's once again turning 2D into 3D.M: You mentioned the chair you created in 2017, right?G: Yes.M: It has physically appeared in one or two exhibitions, and then it's in a few photos you have taken. The photo of the chair is more alive than the actual chair. More people have sat in it with eyes than sat physically. It's interesting how important one photo can be, and it resonates for so many years and to more people than the physical product.G: It was a major surprise to me. Of course, I made sure from the start that there's a good photo. The photo itself takes work. My chair being there is one thing, but it's not the chair – it's a photo. Without knowing these things and the possible effect, we did everything in good conscience. I'm still very surprised at how much power is held in one photo that is still in rotation, keeps getting published. It already has been published numerous times, yet every month I still get press kit requests for publishing in this and that magazine.M: Your chair was recently purchased by the Museum of Decorative Arts and Design of Latvia, which basically is a small, but significant moment in the sense that it has become an icon in the context of Latvia and bridges the gap between design and art, by receiving recognition from the local art. It's cool even though we're a small country. What do you think about your starting point being Latvia? Now you live in Amsterdam, you mostly work in Amsterdam. What does it mean to your contact network and clients that you're from Riga or Amsterdam? Do you feel it resonating when you tell about where you have come from?G: At least in my case, at the moment it's not important where you are from. Where you live now is what might help you, if you are closer to things. The art and design radar not always reaches us, but if you're in Amsterdam, you're in the centre of things. It's not a megapolis, but still is an easily reachable and understandable place. If I were in Riga, I might think it's too unattainable. It's not just about Latvia. My Finnish friend, who is a great photographer that I work with, also thinks that if he were in Finland, he would be unreachable for jobs and contacts in Europe and that he would be just too far physically.M: What I really like about your niche in-between design and art is that this branch pushes you to package your art. If we consider your chair as a piece of art, and you have called yourself an artist in interviews. It pushes you to package the art professionally, making it understandable and readable to the audience.G: It mostly pushes you to communicate differently. You're aware of your audience, who is interested in you, who is your buyer, where will the contact take place. It makes you think about how you will communicate. I see it changing rapidly. When I graduated from school we understood nothing, we were just glad to finish school and have the final exhibition. Years later I attend the same graduate exhibition and they all have a professional set-up. They are ready to talk to the media. They have an Instagram account for their project, a special website. They have prepared so many things that I became aware of only years later. That is changing. Maybe it's a generational thing. I definitely wasn't like that when I finished school, and now I'm amazed by how evolved the modern youth is.Germans Ermičshttp://germansermics.com/Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/ 

This time our guest is Māris Lagzdiņš from film studio "fon Films". We are talking about how to make business from creative work and how creative industry incubators help in this way. Māris Lagzdiņš:https://fonfilms.lv/fonfilms-studijaSubscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

M: Thanks for coming! I've wanted to invite you for a while. Your first start-up GrafoMap and what you did with it seemed very interesting to me.R: It's actually not my first one. It's the first that succeeded.M: We could actually start there. Tell me which was it and why it didn't succeed.R: You might know, I previously lived in China for 7 years. I wouldn't call it a start-up, but me and Mārtiņš, the other co-founder of GrafoMap, used to ship pearls from China to Latvia and sell them. The product was really uncharacteristic for us, but we wanted to take advantage of me being in China and find something that doesn't have the vibe of cheap, Chinese goods and could sell for a high price in Latvia. So, we shipped pearls to Latvia. It didn't go very well. We had no experience. We sold them manually, by going to shops and offering them for distribution. We attempted to create an online shop, but we had no idea how to do it. I think we would have succeeded with the knowledge we have today. It all went off in smoke. I was still in China for a while and there was an opportunity to create a shoe business. There was a Chinese platform where you could design shoes with an online tool, and they would produce it. They have this unique production method, where they print the canvas before assembling the shoe, so it allows you to put any picture on it, and they assemble and deliver it. But the quality was lacking, the delivery was hard and long. I had drawn up the revenue model in Excel, but my expectations were too positive, and that too went off in smoke. Those were my two unsuccessful businesses. We learned some lessons, but it all fizzled out.M: And then you and your partners created GrafoMap, and you managed to successfully grow and sell it. And now you have a new start-up.R: Yes.M: But previously you worked in an investment office.R: Yes, in-between I managed to work in a risk capital fund, IT Capital. It's a Russian fund that invests 1 to 5 million. Not a seed capital, but series A. It was a very good experience, because I had the opportunity to work with series A investment rounds that involve successful companies. Not just dream projects, but companies with real revenue, with a real model that works. The only issue was how to blow them up even more, so that they work even better. It was a super-exclusive MBA program where you go through all these cases and learn.M: Your start-up was progressing concurrently with your main job. You didn't go all in, it remained in the background. How were you able to divide your time between your main job and this new idea that requires focus in order to be driven forward? That's the first question. And the second one is, if we could look at the things that as you mentioned didn't work, what were those pivotal moments that allowed the company to start growing into what it became.R: It wasn't easy to combine those things, but I also had a lot of time. Back then I had no girlfriend, no relationships, so I had all this time. I just had to sleep and continue working the next day. With GrafoMap we were moving towards automatization. The product was posters, but it had a print-on-demand delivery model. Our shop was affiliated with a supplier who executed all that. That saves an enormous amount of time, allowing you to focus on growth. The roles were also divided very well; everyone was clear on what they had to do. I was focused on Facebook and Instagram ads, content creation and conversion optimisation. We basically had to step on all of the rakes, try out all the things that don't work.M: Can you tell me about those rakes that don't work?R: What didn't work for us, I don't want to say anything bad, but we tried out about five agencies that were willing to help us with marketing and sales. Nothing of that worked. It consumed a lot of time, because we had our hopes up. And, while we worked together and the on-boarding took place, we ourselves weren't actively working in that direction. We thought that the sales agency will join in and handle everything for us. Now of course it's hard to imagine in which agency anybody would be willing to dedicate so much effort to one of probably ten client accounts. The other thing that changed a lot for us… We had a revenue model, an Excel table, all the formulas were put in, all variables, etc. And we entered all data monthly and kept tabs on that. But it was a tool that we used to look at the previous months and see the pluses and minuses. And then we got a bit more serious and tried to zoom out of our business and see what's important and what we should focus on. The average cart value and conversion percent – how many people out of 100 make the purchase. Those were the two main quantities. The revenue model made us focus on that and set some goals. Then we practically went back to our webpage offer and considered how we could change something to improve the conversion and improve the cart value. We started to do various bundle offers. Adding another poster to the tube cost us nothing in regards to shipping, therefor we started to do “buy two, get the third one free” offers, and that helped us improve the numbers. In the end the contribution margin was positive, which means that we earn from each sold unit before deducting the operating costs. When the contribution margin is positive, we just have to scale everything in order to surpass the operating costs and have a balance that provides a positive profit. And that's what we did. The moment we understood that one unit is starting to create a positive value, we started to push ads and scale it.M: You were three, four people in GrafoMap.R: Mhm.M: And you managed to get from the initial idea, when you hustled and had to borrow money, to a point of having a turnover of above one million when you successfully sold the company. How did you do it with such a small team of three to four people, how did you create a business with an annual turnover exceeding one million?R: Our goal when we started to create a poster business instead of something else was that we wanted to create a lean business model, so that we wouldn't put on weight, stay away from not only unnecessary operating costs, but also management. It takes a lot of time to manage all these processes if you have a lot of employees, etc. And on the product side we wanted to use the print-on-demand method, because we didn't want to mess around with products and order fulfilment. We wanted to design them, but we didn't want to produce them. We think it was the only way we could have scaled the business with the resources and knowledge we had back then and achieve good sales results. This philosophy also runs thought the team composition. The main core consisted of three people. I was responsible for marketing, Mārtiņš took care of finances and operations, and the programmer did the programming, of course. Whenever we needed we did outsourcing, for photography, web design. For social media management we had a girl from Romania, I have never met her in real life, but we worked together for four years, had weekly calls. She did a great job with managing all social media and influencer campaigns for us. I just called her once a week, and she told me how everything was going in 5 minutes and that everything was okay. She managed everything superbly. The process was polished so well that you didn't need to change much. That was our goal and we gradually achieved it.M: What do you think is the main thing that should be paid attention to when you're actually doing it, like scaling from one dollar to ten thousand, so that you earn the invested money back instead of losing it. What's your advice to somebody just starting out?R: In our product niche, that's a direct-to-consumer product, a very visual, decorative product. For us photos very incredibly important, like webpage design and photos. We had to show that we are selling a product of very high quality and that it justifies its cost. The perceived value had to be equal or higher than the product price. That's the first. The second is social proof. You have to show that your product is not a lonely page on the internet that nobody's interested in, you have to create a feeling that it's highly demanded and recognized, valued. You can do it in several ways. What we had from the start, on the page under the first fold we displayed all press mentions. We collected them gradually. We started with simple “featured on Product Hunt”, where we posted ourselves and it counted as being featured, like they had written about us. We put some niches and media there, at the end we got articles from Business Insider, CNN, Men's Health, Cosmopolitan, a full row of the loudest media. We put in logos of places that have featured us, and that leaves an impression. It might be true or not, but it leaves an impression. That gives you the stamp of quality. Somebody writing about you doesn't mean anything, but it works on a psychological level. The next social proof we had… you have to show up on several places and give people a sense of security. The next thing we did, we showed our Instagram feed on a page with all the influencers who have posted pictures with our poster. It featured very beautiful pictures, a lifestyle, beautiful Scandinavian décor with our posters, and smiling people. And above the feed it read “The proud owners of our posters”. It didn't say that they were influencers; we also didn't say that they are our clients. But if you come to our page, it creates a feeling that they are our super-loyal clients who are so happy with our posters that they take pictures with them and post them on the internet.M: I think that for many people here, in this small spot on the world map called Latvia, have the goal to make it in the foreign press. Instead of local media, how did you manage to get in the world class media? How did you package yourselves to seem interesting for them to write about?R: It was clear for us from the start that we should target the USA market. It's an English-speaking market, a single market, more than 300 million people. Europe also has a lot of purchasing power, but the market is very fragmented. In Germany you need German, in France you need French. So we targeted the USA. How did we get in these media? First of all, we had an interesting product, something new, unseen. It was to create a map of your design and receive a poster. That was cool. Somebody wrote us right after the post about us on Product Hunt. And anyone can get there with their product, but if you get enough “Up” votes, you start to get noticed by the smaller, niche influencers, and they write about you, whereas lifestyle writers follow these niche influencers. And that's how we got picked up by Dwell magazine, a top interior and décor media at the global level.M: You basically founded GrafoMap, scaled it from zero to a turnover of more than one million euros, and sold it. Did you take a break afterwards or did you already have an idea in your pocket for when you have free time to think about it?R: We should have taken a break, but I guess we're workaholics. Even before we sold it, we had already bought a domain and had started to program our next business. I actually had a notebook with future ideas. I had been collecting ideas for several years, written them down. We had various criteria for what we want to do, what we don't. Then we put everything in an Excel table, had a discussion, we considered which idea satisfies all these criteria and then chose one.M: Can you tell me about your criteria and thought process for selecting the ideas? How do you evaluate them, what's your decision journal?R: The criteria develop from the lessons learned, from the whole GrafoMap story. I think that, by reaching a turnover of more than one million euros, we exhausted ourselves almost to the max in this business model. Then we thought about why that happened and the main lessons. It created criteria for the next business. One example, customer acquisition made up a large part of our product costs. The money you had to spend to get one client. For us it was 20-25 dollars on average that you had to spend on marketing ads to sell one poster. One criterion was to have an organic customer flow. We don't want to spend money on each visitor anymore, on each potential buyer. The other main criterion was to have repeated purchases. Okay, we spend those 20-25 dollars on one client, but then he doesn't buy anything again. The customer acquisition costs could be higher, they are higher for a lot of businesses. About 100 or 200 dollars, even if the first purchase is around 50 dollars. And they do it because they know that the lifetime value is much larger. The client will return again and again. That's a great lesson, to have a product or a service that people constantly return to. Now, our new start-up Supliful is in the dietary supplement market, which is an enormous industry, 40 billion in the USA alone. It's relatively undeveloped in the online environment, the boom is just beginning. We thought that was interesting. Business model is actually the same, the Printful business model, but in different market. This business model has proven itself, we see how it develops.M: Can you tell me about your approach? You had an idea, and what were the first tests to validate your idea?R: You create a webpage as it should be. You present your product, set a price, put in a “checkout” button, and let people go and buy it. When someone pushes the “buy” button, you can provide a pop-up message saying “sorry, this product is out of stock”. Write that it's so good that it sells out really quickly, or think of anything else. But that's it, you have analytics and you see how many people actually push that button. You can make conclusions on whether people are willing to buy.M: One thing that's common to both of your start-ups is the design and visuals. In case of GrafoMap you sold design maps, designed by people themselves, so you sold an added value.R: Instead of showing digital mock-ups of how that product will look, it was important to show how the poster would look in interior design. We didn't just sell them a poster; it just embodied the idea. We sold them the aesthetics. Scandinavian, modern interior aesthetics. Now, with Supliful, we have a white label product that we offer to people. A white label dietary supplement that we offer to them for branding. We have products for various niches, but when a person sees a white product, it doesn't inspire fantasy on how it could look like. That's why we created an image gallery of imaginary brands, beautiful examples of how a dietary supplement brand could look like for gamers, for yoga instructors, etc. We create the vision for them, the visuals.M: At Supliful you work mostly in marketing, right?R: Yes.M: What are your personal marketing pillars that you base your way of thinking and work on?R: First of all, people come to your page and consider your product and service because they lack something or they think they lack something. It's important to tell the visitor what that is. What is the thing that's missing in your current state. Then you show where you could be. Everything that's in-between is me as a service. I offer to get you there, and this is how we'll do it. Giving the message is what's most important.M: Super! Thanks, Rihards! I find it very interesting, that you, coming from the analytics side, have added the marketing side, and then the companies you create are largely connected to the way you sell design or smaller brands that you help create in case of Supliful. That these things can be combined and that you need both of these sides, like you said, that you have to sell the space, the interior or the vision of where you want to end up, and at the same time you can't forget the practical, tactical things needed for arranging your webpage and systems, and that's a combination of both of these things. You need the consistency and clarity.Rihards Pīks:https://www.linkedin.com/in/rihardspiks/?originalSubdomain=lv--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

M: My name is Miķelis Baštiks and this is Asketic Podcast. About design, business and making brands in Latvia and the Baltics, and this time we are meeting Andris Bērziņš, who is a partner in the investor's fund Change Ventures, and we will talk about how to make the Baltics an essential mark in making new start-ups around the world. Hi Andri!A: Hi!M: In the last few years, you have lived in Riga with your family and have actively participated in the new start-up business environment, can you shortly tell about how you got from Australia to London, then North America and back to Riga?A: In few words, I was born in Australia, my parents grew up there, my grandparents were running from the Soviet Union Army, in the end of WW2 they ended up in Germany, then moved to Australia and thought it would be for a short time but half a century later they of course were still there. When I was 10 years old, my father got a job in London, and then we moved to Great Britain where I graduated from university. After that in 1993 I came to Riga during the crazy time when everything was changing, which was very interesting, worked as a consultant in privatization questions and so on. Then I got into the Stanford School of Business and if you get into this school then you go without any questions. A very good school, two years in California and there I got hooked on technology questions which is like the heart of the technology industry. Then I was in Boston for a few years while my wife was studying, I worked in Boston in a consultation company, paid off business school and other debts and then we lived in Philadelphia for five years where my wife finished her second master's degree or PhD.  I started to work in a new Israelian/American start-up which after many years became the leader in location systems that were based on Wi-Fi infrastructure, and I was managing business sales and many fields of marketing products. During the development of that firm, somewhere in the middle, we moved back to Riga, So the first years we lived in Riga, but actually for about 5-7 days a week I was somewhere in Europe, the close East where I developed sales in this region. So that was that and then also after I left that job, I was managing the marketing field in one start-up in London, and then I finally got closer to this region when start-ups here started to develop, got to know others here, started my own business and worked with the start-ups that were here. And then around five years ago I met the partners that I have now, and we started talking about developing a fund, we invested from the other fund which is at a capital of 31 billion dollars now, soon it will be 50 billion euros, which is the biggest seed fund that invests in all three Baltic countries and our focus is only on Baltic founders.M: I will surely want to ask more about Change Ventures, but I want to go back a little bit and there are two things that I wrote down. I read that you and you also mentioned that you worked in Bain & Company.A: Yes, that was after business school.M: Can you tell a bit about that experience? Why I ask is because recently listened to an interview with the founder and it was very interesting for me to listen to his philosophy and then I see how you were in it, what was your time like there?A: It is one of the best strategy consultation firms in the world, the work there, they basically have clients which are the biggest companies in the world, and they get a call when there is an important question that needs to be solved, the company feels that with the inner capacity they will not have enough resources, so they need someone from the side to help them make a big decision, re-structure something, figure out how to re-organise and so on. So… it was like… very interesting to take something that I had learned academically in business school for two years and then try to put it into the big companies in the real world. I wasn't that old, but it was a C level work and, let's say, you prepare a presentation, and you are one of the people that presents for a big company CEO, a large scale. That was a very intellectual job, we prepared market analysis, strategy analysis. It was an interesting job on the intellectual side. What I learned what that the firm is very good, the culture is very strong, they have the ‘'no bullshit'' culture, they always make fun of McKenzie that they always write the long reports, like 200 pages. Bain doesn't write any reports, they only make slides. And this was before the time that you could make slides yourself, we would literally draw on paper with a pencil what we wanted and where and would give it to someone who then…M: …drew them…A: Yeah, drew the slides. But the idea was that everything was very practical, just slides, an easy message, idea and so on. It was a cool experience. M: Are there any things that you learned that you have taken from that time and carry with you now?A: We work with bigger clients and the capacity is bigger, for example, one thing is that Bain regularly works with something that is called the ‘'big experience curve'', let's say, it is scientifically proven that you are a manufacturer who produces something, a physical item and with every item that you produce, with time the production costs will reduce because your experience is increasing in designing, producing, developing this item and a larger capacity manufacturer who has produced for a longer time, they will have an advantage. And knowing that this is something in the future, you can look at a start-up and already understand that you should start to think about this, to put some base in it, what will be our ‘'experience curve'' against other manufacturers. So, there are many theories which are useful both for smaller and bigger companies.M: Looking back at the company which was the Israelian/American company, highly successful. Why I'm interested in Israel is because it's a small country, but especially in the technology start-up field it is one of the top players in the world, and in a sense, we also are a small company, thankfully there is no war action around us constantly, but is there anything that you see which we should take from and learn from that culture and how we can maybe do the shortcut?A: There is actually a lot and lately I have been trying to push the thesis that the Baltic countries are the next Israel. Next start-up nations, let's say. We are very similar in many ways, except the fact that we don't have constant war around us, we also have hostile neighbours around us, the same as Israel. Luckily, we don't have an active war, but what is very similar is the thinking that from a small country how can you think in a global scale and develop companies in a global scale, use the diaspora network. All of these things that Israelis do very well, we can learn a lot from them. And in the company where I worked, we had engineers in Israel and I, the CEO and the management team were in America, we had sales people all over the world and that was during the time when we started to use Skype calls, but it didn't have the idea that we have now, about distributed teams, remote teams and all those term didn't exist yet, but Israelis already then, literally did the same so this was not a newly invented bicycle, but today we have technologies that make it much easier and I think that Latvia and all the Baltic countries have the opportunity to pull economy into huge growth, similarly how Israel did it. M: So, does that mean, if I understood correctly, that you think we, here in the Baltics, should put emphasis specifically on technology companies and not on other fields?A: I think it should be one of the emphasis. Of course, it shouldn't be the only industry, they can't employ all citizens, but I think that one of the leading fields will be technology companies.M: What should we change internally in our thinking to make the process faster or promote it?A: I think that from businesspeople, I still see regularly restricted ambitions so to say, and sort of fear a little bit to go into bigger markets and that is something that needs to be overcome and there is good proof for those who can overcome it and do it successfully, but it is important because you have a significantly different chance for growth, targeting the Baltics with 6-7 million citizens. Opposite you have Poland, Germany, Spain or all America where the market is immeasurably bigger and what it means is that it is very easy to make a product or a service that is for a much smaller niche but have the same amount of business opportunity.M: But, in principle you think it is ok to start with Europe or go straight for North America or some other, bigger countries…A: You know, it depends on the company and the market. 15 -20 years ago there was kind of an orthodox that you simply had to go to America if you want to make something big, and that has changed now. The American investors have also understood that you can build a big company even only in Europe, because the European market together is equal to the American market, or even bigger. It really depends on your specialty, what is your product or service. Like the Lithuanian success story Vinted, used clothing online market and their market focus is Europe, they have a 4 million estimate in the European market only, they don't need to run to Amerika because I have also been in companies that have come to Europe, or vice versa and that is not easy, to cross the ocean. There is a big time zone difference, culture difference and other things. You need a serious capital to take this step across the ocean.M: I also once worked as a marketing manager, what is your view on how to spread the news through marketing, through communication to the outside during this time?A: I think that many interesting success stories are the ones that invent how to ‘'dress up'' their business idea, their product value in an interesting message that the media are interested in writing about them, and they understand that the readers will want to read about it. And because there are many awesome examples, recently one of those is Transferwise, an Estonian start-up that now is already very big. They sell a money transporting service, but they formulated everything as a fight against bank commissions, which is about these transfers for big amounts, that they are the ones who will free the consumer from these commissions. They organised a protest march in the centre of London, which you could photograph and publish in newspapers, but Transferwise, of course, is somewhere in there. But the story they had was about the movement and the direction that this is unfair, and banks are bad, but of course behind closed doors they told the banks that this is just for PR, only PR. But they got consumers, they got business growth, and an interesting story.M: Going back to the Baltics and Change Venture a little, which is your current investment fund, you invest in all Baltic countries, only in Baltic countries.A: Yes!M: Can you talk about the philosophy why you are not in North America or London, but specifically in the Baltics?A: As an investor, actually the impression for many is that the Venture capital investors are… their money is very hard to get and they are very picky what they will invest in, and everybody has to fight to get the money. The truth is that the best start-ups are the ones that choose who will get to invest. That is our chosen focus for the time being it looks very good that we are considered one of the best funds in this region which are not tied to something, and that is the position we want, so the brands are important. That's why we have American colours, we have a little bit of an American thinking, and our approach is that we try to be like Silicon Valley fund by way of thinking. But here we look at the long-term development picture because there are many investors in this region who invest more like you would invest in a restaurant where it is important for you to obtain a profitable company so you can get your investment back from profit. In my industry the most successful funds are the ones that lose about 40%, they simply write them off, because they get one or two success stories that pay off everything else. And to always get those two success stories you have to take on enough risk in each investment for one of them to become that big success story. M: I had a question which you already touched upon a little, which is more global than the one we started. There is the stereotype that you have to be in the hot spots of the world, which is technologies, but with your fund you are trying to show that you can start from a relatively unknown point on the map, and do you see that it is changing and that there are more places in the world or is it an exception?A: It is certainly changing; I would say that it is one of the biggest changes in the last 5-10 years globally in start-up ecosystem. The fact that Silicon Valley's dominance, so to say… Silicon Valley used to be like 95% of everything, and it is still very big and continues to be the centre of technology development in the world, but opportunities in many other places to develop successful countries are much, much bigger, with the fact that communication is easier, there are these ecosystems that have developed elsewhere similarly to Silicon Valley; like 10-15 years I was working in London and already then there were investors, angels and founders who were experienced and the ecosystem was quite powerful, but similar things are happening in many other cities in the world. This is the change, and what has changed the most in the last 18 months is that American investors, including Silicon Valley investors have really understood it, so, in the past year all the big funds that didn't have offices in Europe are now opening them, they are coming and searching for us and others that are in the European periphery, and are searching for the investment opportunities, because they have understood that actually not only in the Valley are the engineers, and it is actually expensive to get them there, there's a strong competition. Here we have opportunities everywhere to develop new companies, so this is a drastic change, and for such a small country as ours it is a fantastic opportunity, because we don't need 300 unicorns to change something in our economy, it will be enough with half a dozen and then it will be a serious impact on the economic growth.M: What are the values that you try to see personally in founders and the company, when you evaluate what are…of course there are some standard things that you look at, but what are some things for you subjectively that you personally look for?A: Yeah, I like to talk about that because I have a specific answer. There is the English term ‘'grit'', and that in English means a combination of passion and perseverance, meaning that you are passionate about something and that you have enough guts to make it till the end. In fact, there is a great book written by Angela Duckworth called ‘'Grit'', she is a scientist that has researched this, and actually what she researched first was, she was observing one of the American military colleges and tried to understand why, from the one's who applied, one part gets through, finishes and graduates, and why others don't. And she started to understand that it wasn't connected to how smart, physically able you were, there was a different effect. She made different questionnaires and found that there is this combination, how much you are passionate about something and how much you are ready to fight for it. And this combination together was the variable that explained the difference -who finished and who didn't. And she has repeated this in many other fields, and I think in business especially it is a very appropriate indicator, because you need it to develop a big company, there are challenges always, you come to work and every day you have to solve something. You have to solve this, then this and then that. You need this element in the founders' team to be successful, so that is the main thing we are looking for. We are looking for people who can somehow convince us that they have this personality trait.M: We, as a team, are slowly starting to experiment with what we also talked about with Kristaps Prūsis from Stockholm, that you invest your service as equity into start-ups and start to understand how to think about it, how to structure it. What would be your well wishes for when you start to think about such things and make your first investments; what would you need to pay attention to in the very beginning?A: I think the main thing to understand is that you have to play the same investment game as all other investors, because if we look at a start-up that needs fast development, that will need external capital attraction repeatedly, then we look at how many shares the full-time employees, founders have in which moment, and will it be enough for them to be motivated, are they motivated to do the superhuman things that are needed to be a big success story. And because the part of equity that can be taken by those who are not a part of the team full-time, it is limited, so you have to play the same game, you have to think of yourself as an angel investor in a way, but your investment is a service not cash. M: Thank you, Andri! And good luck with the changes that are written for you and implement the thesis for Change Venture that you mentioned that the Baltics is the next start-up success story in the world, and good luck with everything.A: Thank you!Andris Bērziņš:https://www.linkedin.com/in/aberzins/?originalSubdomain=lv--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

Raimonds Gusarevs:https://www.linkedin.com/in/raimonds-gusarevs-27445b161/?originalSubdomain=lv--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

My guest today is Gatis Zēmanis, co founder of "Kalve Coffee", we are talking about design as a strong component of business from day one.M: Hi, Gatis! Thanks for the coffee which comes from Coffee Roastery KALVE and which has been roasted here, in Riga. You have worked with coffee a lot. Can you tell me a bit about the history? When did you start and how did you end up in coffee?G: Many people have asked “Why coffee? “, and the answer is that this product is important, I like coffee, and it's a very interesting product to work with emotionally and financially, but the connection to coffee most likely are the people from this industry, and what makes this industry cool is its openness and responsiveness on a global level, and it seems that coffee is a massive global business, but while we are on the topic of specialty, you can actually reach any point of the world, farmer or the world's best barista, or a roaster.M: Can you briefly explain what is specialty coffee?G: It differs with quality – there's specialty coffee and there's mainstream coffee. There's an institution called Cup of Excellence who are special certified judges who assess coffee's sensory characteristics and give you points. Specialty coffee means that each bean that's in your package will be free of defects, they will have more or less the same size and gradation, namely, there will be a lot more work put into the coffee to bring out the best of it. Interestingly, if we talk about mainstream coffee… actually the topic of coffee is changing very quickly, and coffee demand globally is growing, and few days ago I had a conversation with a Latvian scientist Ilze Laukalēja who studies coffee and who has research a lot of thing in USA universities, and she had a question from one of the biggest corporate companies of Brazil that produces green coffee about what to do with the mainstream coffee that people need less and less. They found that this coffee has a lot more antioxidants and a lot of good substances, and now there's a big question mark regarding what to do in order to turn this defect into an effect.M: When you started, you were not the first coffee roaster in Riga. I know that historically there have been more than 20 coffee roasteries in Riga, but back when you started there were 2 or 3. When you came up with your offer, what was the essence you put in your brand when you recognized that there's a place for one more roastery and what was the place you hoped to occupy?G: Primarily, me and Raimonds, my partner , saw that we really love the specialty coffee and that we like everything that this specialty coffee offers in the sensory and community sense. And we saw that specialty coffee is not emotionally and financially presented in the way that we see it, that it was more like a niche product. If we would let a coffee drinker, who drinks Italian coffee, try a specialty coffee, he would think it's bitter and expensive etc., so our goal was to make this specialty coffee emotionally and financially available.M: I know that your brand has many values that you strictly adhere to, one that you mentioned was  availability, price. Are there any other values that you identified from the beginning and that you considered as the pillars of your brand?G: We really put in a lot of work in the beginning in order to create a navigation map for us that's based on these pillars – core values. One of them is availability, and it doesn't only mean price availability… speciality coffee doesn't have to cost 50 euros per kilo, it can just as well cost 25 euros per kilo. Or availability of taste, when it doesn't mean that this coffee has a particular, bitter, fruity taste that's not acceptable to an Italian. We are able to create an expresso blend that's specialty, but which is accepted by both an Italian and a specialty coffee drinker. The second value, which is absolutely essential and nowadays topical for almost every company, is sustainability. Sustainable design, sustainable thinking within the company, sustainable delivery or packaging.M: One of the things that separates you from most of the companies, is that you had a strong emphasis on a high quality brand design from day one. There are a lot of beautiful brands, but there are few brands where this has been addressed from the beginning. You are one of the rare companies that has a designer within its founding team. Such brands are not many, Madara Cosmetics is one of the examples and you are also one of such companies that has a designer at hand from day one, and that is obvious. What was the decision on your part when you understood that this is an aspect that is worth paying attention to?G: It was most likely an unconscious choice and coincidence. It was clear that we wanted this to be a high-quality brand not only in the terms of contents, but also regarding design. It had to look really good. Our ambitions were high enough that we saw this coffee brand not in the context of Latvia or the Baltics, but in the context of Europe. Destiny brought us together with this one guy Jānis Andersons, and at the very beginning we had decided that we would not attract investors just so we could sustain the ability to manoeuvre and freely make decisions. So, when we met Jānis and started talking, we understood that we can't afford to pay him for the whole brand development, marketing strategy etc., and through conversations we came to a conclusion that maybe we should be partners.M: You mentioned brand culture and that you had a common understanding about how the company should be created. I know that you work a lot with the internal culture. Maybe you could tell me about your approach to the invisible parts that we don't see on the shelves, but that you work a lot on.G: In reality it's very simple. In the company internally it's important to know the rules of the game for all stages, for example, what do I expect from my partner, what I expect from a colleague, how we as a company want to communicate outwards and how we explain that to baristas. We have invested a lot of time and work in various internal materials, one of them is “The Handbook of Kalve's Values”, where we have stipulated various things, for example, how the brand communicates with a person, the brand being the product and me as a company representative, and the barista, and any product we choose to sell in addition to coffee. How the brand communicates with environment. How we as people should communicate with our clients, our partners, our friends etc. And the other material, which is very good and serves as a bible that should from time to time be read by everyone within the company, is “Ethical Guidelines”. It includes various situations where we have described how we want our clients to be communicated with.M: It think it's very cool that you have done that. Your company is young, and such things often are done only when you are starting to drown, when the company has grown and you realize that you can no longer hold the team in line. You have done it at the very beginning, by writing down your principles as a founder, so afterwards it's easier to scale them and grow bigger. You mentioned the easier route… I have one more question about this topic. Even though you're not a tech start-up, you are trying to implement many things from this field in your daily life. You mentioned KPI, you have talked about the Lean methodology, which normally is language used by tech start-ups. Tell me how you implement it in your daily life and what it means to you.G: A person close to me keeps saying that you should develop a lazy person within yourself, which means you have to arrange your work environment and all systems in a way that actually makes you effective, so that you save time, you save money and resources etc. Lean methodology is one of the methods used in production; I don't think you have to look up what it is. And KPI is a method that helps you find the weak links and work on them.M: A while after founding the roastery, you opened your first coffee shop on Stabu Street. What was the idea behind this coffee shop? Was it marketing? What was the idea then and what is it now?G: If I'm being honest, the expectations weren't great. We knew we wanted to open a cool coffee shop where we ourselves would like to work. The idea was to show how we see a modern, worldly, high-quality, easily accessible café. This is the easiest way to receive feedback from the client, because it's not only a café, but also a store. The barista is able to talk to people, ask what they liked and what they didn't, understand how many people return, how many come once and don't return. It's a platform on which we can measure many different things with our product.M: You talked about things that shouldn't be rushed. You even started your company gradually and deliberately. You said there were no big investments. If I'm correct, you started with a 60 000 starting capital, which isn't a lot for a producing company. There were no big investments from the outside, which means slower growth, but that was a deliberate decision.G: You can quite easily attract certain investments to such a concept as ours, but the question is whether you should. Big investments quite often put you in a losing position, and you lose certain ability to manoeuvre. Whereas, if you grow more slowly, you are able to adapt to the market. If we had invested thrice as much money, would we be able to pay all of it now? Most likely not. Everything has to happen little by little.M: At the beginning of our conversation you mentioned sustainability as one of the main pillars you based your company on. You see that there is a demand for these things, people are willing to pay a little more for a sustainable product.G: Quite often, if you want to change something in your life so that it's in line with the sustainability principles, it most likely requires some changes, and people are lazy when it comes to that. On our part, we actually created a system regarding packaging that works really well, it was really important for us that this packaging differs from anything else on the market and that we combine it with certain sustainability principles. For example, if we look at standard coffee packaging - it's produced from two materials, therefore it doesn't comply with sustainability principles. There are two materials, you can't separate the waste, it means you can't produce it from recycled plastics, so we ended up with this can. A lot of people use the opportunity to refill these packages. The idea is that if you buy a can at our store and pay 10 euros, you can come back and refill it for 6 euros. The idea was not to increase the price so that this sustainable product gets going, but the opposite. We need to create a system based on sustainability principles that makes it easier for people to change their habits. They see they can save 4 euros, which, considering their consumption, would be around 100 euros per year, so they do it. The design-based thinking is not only reflected in the product, but in our every step – how we choose premises, how we furnish the bathroom so that moms can change their babies etc. I think that what separates successful people or companies from less successful ones is decision-making, how successful you are at making certain decisions at a certain time. If we talk about design… my side of the company is the business management side, Raimonds oversees the coffee where I don't even intervene, and Jānis oversees the design side, not only the product, but a wider, strategic design. But when it comes to big, important decisions, we make them together, not separately. I think it's the right way to make a better decision.M: How do people see this small coffee roastery from an even smaller country that's not Italy and is not known for coffee? What's the reaction when such good coffee suddenly comes from this world region?G: I think it's important to set very high goals, set a high bar at the very beginning. Big ambitions in a good sense, but then it's important to check whether you can attain them. It's really bad if you have big ambitions that you can't attain, or vice versa - you have the ability that you can't actualize because your ambitions are too low.M: Then I wish you success in actualizing these ambitions step by step and may your every morning start with a good coffee!Gatis Zēmanis:https://www.linkedin.com/in/gatis-zemanis-25836073/?originalSubdomain=lv--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

This time our guest is Jānis Šipkēvics, we are talking about creative process, discipline, and how to create ideas and deliver them to the right audience. M: And the first question I wanted to ask is – do you see musical band or a musical brand as a business or art? How do you decide for yourself what that is? J: Music for me is my job, and it's the middle ground I have found between doing what I like and being able to support myself, so that I don't have to do another job in order to make music. That's the short version.M: One thing that is important is a certain discipline, when your hobby turns into your job or your occupation and you want to do it professionally. For thousand other people it's a hobby, many people like to sing, but for you it's a job. What's the difference that separates professionals in their creative expression from the ten thousand people who simply like to play music or create art?J: I think there's a perpetual weighing of both sides… turning the thing that you're doing into an utmost professional form is not always a victory. A lot of times when a person takes up a hobby and also finds the key to becoming useful and earning money with it, it is turned into a form that many years down the line is not even close to what it was at the beginning and is missing the reason for wanting to change the world, ideals or notions of what we can expect from music or design, or packaging, what it means to us and what message it carries. In creating music, when we talk about “Instrumenti”, which is my main place of work, we think about who we are addressing it to. That's one my dimensions, one of my research spheres of musical interests, but in this regard we think about the recipient, to whom we are sending this message.M: Yesterday I thought about the famous quote by designer Paul Rand: “Don't ty to be original. Just try to be good.”, namely, try to think more about the end-user of the design instead of putting your self-expression into the design work. It's similar to what you are saying. You in your work - the band “Instrumenti” - think about the audience, but you as a creative person of course have the desire for  an original self-expression. How do you find the boundary between what the audience and what you yourself need?J: Contrary to the notion of what is an original… at least me as a person who has thought about that, who has tried to break my inner spears, who has been looking for myself and denied myself, and gone in a different direction again and again, I have discovered that the more you are yourself, the more interesting is the possibility that it could mean more to somebody else than just a sound, a picture and a concert. The more you think about it and discover, the more you confirm it. And that is the biggest challenge, because each of us has doubts about ourselves, me as well, and great inner denial, and thoughts about the things we should have done better, about not doing something or being lazy. I experience that every day, but there are those good, blessed moments when you try to be friends with your inner self.M: Seeing what you all and you yourself are doing with music, I have the impression that you are able to put your authentic daily experiences aside and be professional on the stage, because when people come to the concert, they don't care that you are authentically tired or you've had a bad day. They expect to see the same quality that they have already seen three times for the fourth time.J: There are two phases to my work. The first one requires this authenticity and it can include tiredness or emptiness, or grief, or childish joy – and it all is necessary to be mixed together in order to create a new matter. And afterwards is the second phase, when this rock turns into a fixed thing, and then you have to start to deliver it, and afterwards it's just constant quality and it has to be exactly that. Something I've learned fairly recent is that I'm not allowed to diverge from what we can call in this office or recording studio a product, you have to give what you have promised to give, otherwise the game isn't fair. It might be fair, but it won't be long. I think it's very important to maintain this relationship and to be open and consistent.M: There are two saying often said to young people, one is to follow your heart, to do what you are passionate about and then you will succeed. And the other one, instead of following your heart, suggests to just take up one thing, do it, learn skills, and then the passion will come gradually and you will grow fond of your work.J: I think that in any line of work, the game becomes interesting when you reach a certain phase, and it's a fact. It takes patience to spend these iconic ten thousand or forty thousand hours thinking about and developing this skill. I think that each of us is capable of doing a lot of different things. We have the capability and potential inside of us to be surprising in many different forms. The question is what is able to create such excitement, passion and satisfaction in us for being there.M: The thing that always stands out in my mind, when I think about you and “Instrumenti”…  well, I used to think that musicians always hear music in their head, they write it down and then in two years' time they have collected these ten songs in order to release an album. Whereas with you I have noticed that you take two weeks during the summer to go to your retreat, lock in and do what you have to do, and then this material is ready for polishing. You are able to go somewhere and focus on your work. It's not like you feel like or are in the mood to do that, but there is a group of people, all of whom have to focus and give the best of themselves. The first question is how is that possible? How do you manage to all go there, to be on the same wave and to create so much material in such a short time period?J: At that moment everything, of course, doesn't start from zero. It's a moment when all three of us - me, Gatis and Reinis - dock together, and we all bring our own bag of ideas, which are put together, and then we see… one has found a book to read, other has five lines, another has a motive, one has a rhythm loop, one has an album that we all should listen to. There are conversations, the we go into the bath-house, then we swim, then we go for a run in the morning, and somehow it all… one hand washes the other, and then these hands meet and get to know each other much better, and then this hand is bold enough to write something down.M: In such a camp where there are many of you and you have to constantly voice ideas, and as you said, not all of them fit, how do you deal with criticism between each other… how do express that something is not a good idea? One is your inner criticism, but how do you deal with wider criticism?J: I think we have a quite good experience and we have overcome different waves and good through inner schooling. We have understood that.. And it took a while… It was especially hard when it was just me and Reinis. It would seem that two people working together is really easy, but, on the other hand, it's the biggest challenge, because there are two strong individuals, and if one says “I got it”, but the other says “listen, that's not it”, it turns into a frontal confrontation. It has a big potential to become personal - it's a “no” because I don't like it. In a collective everything is levelled out by this musical tripod, and in that sense everything came together much easily. Now Gatis helps us resolve things. I feel sure, when I hear it from a quorum. We take things much less personally in our inner collective, we have a lot of respect for still being together, we really cherish our alliance. Regarding the external criticism, over the years you develop a relationship with the external voice. There's a stage when you take it very personally and you think that each of these voices… many people don't have the time to delve into it and it's the first thought that is voice, and so be it. Every person has a right to their own opinion and I respect that, and I try not to get upset by that, but also listen, and often it has much of the truth in it.M: I have always enjoyed observing that everything you do is done on a very high professional level, whether it's a concert, your costumes, stage design and the music itself… and in such a creative process that's led by yourself, because you don't have a client who says he needs something for tomorrow. As a perfectionist and a perfectionist you can always keep polishing. I know you're currently reading a book called “Shipping Creative Work”. How do you know when to stop the creative work and ship it out and when to keep polishing it?J: It always seems that you could have kept polishing it. But there a lot of ideas that I have buried, that never saw the daylight, because I wasn't completely sure it's the right moment. Everything that hasn't happened in regards to my ideas that haven't seen the daylight  is just the result of my laziness. That's a significant factor and a whole new chapter in my life, which I look at with great respect and piety, and from which I learned discipline.M: What do you mean when you say discipline? What does it mean in daily practice?J: Chaos is not the most creative environment. I have understood that the less is on my worktable, the more I am able to say. The greater the order, the more surprising creativity is able to flourish in me. Maybe initially, at the age of ninety or twenty you are still able to absorb information, you're not yet confused by its amount… you don't yet realize that the world is so full of information, ideas and opinions. I have realized that I'll never be able to absorb everything, and if I do – I'd just go mad and feel crushed by that amount. So what I try to do is to say “No” to things. By listening to the ideas of Derek Sivers at your suggestion and not just that, I think there are many teachings that encourage you to understand that by saying “No”, you're saying “Yes” to something you really want. “No” weeds out the things that just come your way, and I for many years have been open to everything that knocks on my door, and with time you become more cautious and begin to treat your time with more respect.M: To continue this subject a bit… what about inspiration? Do you let it come to you constantly or do you turn it on and become inspired, and sometimes you're at home and don't want to hear anything? Or do you hear music all the time?J: No, no, it doesn't. I have understood that there are certain periods of input and output. There are moments when I'm completely empty, sometimes there's neither input nor output. I'm not able to say anything, I have no thoughts, and I don't even want to listen to anything. There's just complete emptiness, and it's good, I think you should let yourself rest. Just as there's inhale and exhale… you don't have to constantly keep inhaling and exhaling, there's a blissful moment when just inhale and realize what's going on. I think those are four different phases – inhale, pause, exhale, and pause. Those are like four sides of the sky, and each offers its own thing.M: When you exhale and create an output, how do you prepare yourself for work? Do you just sit down and start working or are there like three steps that you take?J: I feel the best creatively and mentally when I feel good physically as well. I'm very proud of myself when I run, go ice swimming, go to bed on time, not consume alcohol, eat less sweets, but it's a constant fight with windmills, but I know that I'm going in the right direction and I feel that these phases when I turn on this mode, they are wonderful moments of enlightenment.Jānis Šipkēvicshttps://twitter.com/shipseanet?lang=en--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

This time our guest is Līva Pērkone, who is a member of "Latvian Startup Association" and "TechChill" festival. She has her own company called "Helve" which helps businesses to develop innovations. This time we are talking about branding of Latvia and local start up/tech scene.I wanted to start with one question – what is the brand of Latvia? You have hosted various panel discussions and have taken part in many conversations about this exact topic. So what is the brand of Latvia and what can you do with it? What it isn't and do we even need it? Where is it moving towards?We have spoken about it a lot, and there are topics that we always return to, which is the green environment. We can often speak ironically about that, but at the same time there are some truths that most Latvians perceive as quite natural. We gather mushrooms, we gather berries, our population density is one of the lowest in Europe, approximately 40%, if I'm not mistaken, of our land is covered by forests. And these are the truths, which you can't deny. If you talk about it in such artificial categories as brands or strategies, or the greenest country of the world, then it might seem unnatural to the audience; but at the moment when people leave their home on a Saturday morning, they often go to a forest, to countryside or to visit a grandmother. Brand is true when it's based on truth and reality, and on real habits of people.Is the brand of Latvia necessary for anybody else except us? Do you feel this necessity when you tell about Latvian companies and start-up environment? Who else besides us needs the brand of Latvia?This is a very good question, because I think we have often thought about this brand in a tourism or culture element, which of course is nice, but it's not the same as a business element. We need this brand in order to achieve certain goals and not just so we could create campaigns. Underneath any communication campaign there are strategic goals, and this might be why we can't arrive at this brand, because in order to create a communication strategy, you have to have a business strategy, and maybe be the answer is that we haven't had a Latvian business strategy, for which to create this communication campaign. Advertising and PR people might not be the ones whom we should ask what our goal is.One of your own goals is to help new Latvian companies to create global brands. What is the difference of a country brand, which as you said can't be artificially made and which should be true for most of the society?The advantage of Latvia as a small country, which we often see among start-ups, is that the founders of these companies create ideas that are international from day 1. No Latvian start-up is creating a start-up just for Latvia, they understand that the only way they can grow and develop is to become an international brand. I personally think that a successful brand will include a part of its creator's personality, which is how start-ups slightly differ from large corporations, because a start-up starts small and grows very quickly. At the same time if we look at a bank or a large corporation, then it most likely is a large company with long history, whose founders might no longer work there. And they are very far from the initial idea and founder's mission regarding why the company is created and what problem the founder wanted to solve.What are the few things that are necessary in order for new companies to think with the ambition you mentioned in regards to Jobs and Musk. We here in Latvia sometimes are afraid to dream big or to plan big global changes, which we can achieve from here.I think that at least the people I know, who are creating start-ups, are all good in regards to ambition. If you don't have this ambition, you can't create a start-up. Their confidence is grand and they have no doubt that they will be able to conquer the world, if only they get lucky, if they make the right bets, if they solve the problems correctly; it requires knowledge, but it also has an element of luck - luck in market or luck in investment, or being in the right place at the right time. This global view is something I would like to see more in government or in decision-making. A specific example from the present is stock option regulation, which is a seemingly self-evident financial instrument that helps to promote innovations, but it has had a very hard time perhaps due to inexplicable reasons, because this is a regulation that would seem as a self-evident and simple decision, but we often see that these decision-makers…  I don't want to say that it happens in all levels, because we see more and more people having a global breath among the decision-makers, but the critical mass still hasn't been reached. The decision-making process is very hard, long and heavy. They try to pass the stock option regulation for at least a year and a half, but it keeps getting stuck and it has a lot of opponents. We find it to be a very simple and self-evident thing, which should have been passed very quickly, and there are no reasons why it hasn't.We're happy for every smaller or bigger success story, but we still don't have one big global success story in Latvia. We're the last ones in the Baltics without one.We have been the last ones for a while, unfortunately.Yeah. What do you think is the missing element among the few start-ups that exist and are doing cool things, which we are proud of… but in order to have a one big win, which, as you said, would create the effect that in the second or third generation it creates various new investors with their own experience, what are we still missing in order to make the big jump?One of the things we lack the most is knowledge. The moment when Skype was sold, it created a very large number of people in Estonia, who not only have a large funding at their disposal, which they can invest further in order to found their own companies that became the next “unicorns” or large, successful start-ups, or they invested it in other start-ups, but what's the most imported – it created people with knowledge on how to build a large, successful company, and at the moment what we see in Estonia is not the second, but even the third and fourth generation.You have said that innovation is the quickest and smartest way to make a small country rich. Could you tell me why you have this conviction?I really liked this one example. There was a businessman, who we talked with many years ago, when we were creating an offer for the Latvian Expo. He told us that he used to grow potatoes in Latgale, if I'm not mistaken. He was growing potatoes, selling and exporting them, but he of course was not able to compete. Other countries will always have larger areas, hotter sun. No matter what he does here, he will never be able to grow them in a way that makes him rich; he can support himself, but it will never lead him to wealth. What did he do? He started to produce organically certified potato starch. This is where we see this fantastic example – you have a natural environment, this wonderful green nature of ours, which is one, plus innovations, wit and cleverness. The moment he started doing this he became the second largest exporter in the world.What are the steps to get to this innovation? How can I begin to untwist this path? Regardless whether my starting point is potatoes, microchips or any other area.Creating innovations is hard. There are several strategies to doing this. You can create them internally, you can dedicate a separate team that will create a specific product and innovate, you can search for partners in the start-up ecosystem, for example, a start-up which creates a potential product that could be added to your bigger company, maybe you cooperate with it, maybe it creates this product and then you acquire and incorporate this company. Innovation – anything that is the future – of course is not based on historic data. We can't create anything new by looking at we have already done, since innovation in its nature is something new and never-seen-before, so there can't be a proven way of creating this genius idea.I have this one question. From state companies to businesses, and a very small structural unit is the family. You yourself have three children, and several business areas that you operate within. How do you create the environment for your children, so they could create these new, innovative ideas in the future, so they have a creative environment and can think with a large ambition?In my experience, children allow you to look at things completely differently, for example, they learn and while they learn you are able to return to these topics and learn together with them.You have asked school teachers why children are not being taught programming. Is this the one thing you suggest to teach children from an early age?In this regard I might be assessing my own experience. I studied in a school of humanities. In the science class, but still in a school of humanities, which is a very specific experience. You realise that you have not been offered the opportunity to understand this scientific environment, which later affects you quite a lot. I think we must be able to provide our children with such an education that, when they complete the primary or secondary school, they are able to choose. If we only teach them folk dances, Latvian language and literature, then we take the ability to choose what they want to become away from them, because if they are not able to pass the math or physics exam, this future is locked away for them. They no longer can become engineers or programmers.Cool, thank you!Līva Pērkonehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/livaperkone/?originalSubdomain=lv--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

Iļja Olijevskishttps://www.linkedin.com/in/iljao/?originalSubdomain=lv--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

This time, we're meeting with Aigars Runģis who is the head of Valmiermuižas Alus. He's also behind many other brands like Gardu Muti, Kokmuiža and many other smaller initiatives. We'll be speaking about the importance of a brand story and how to build one, the basic principles, and how to spread the Latvian narrative in the world. You spent the first half of your career on the agency side, working with agency clients, and then over 10 years ago you created your own business, Valmiermuižas Alus. Can you tell in short what was your role and area of interests when you were at the agency? Nowadays you might probably call it strategizing, but what were your interests and wishes, in human words?Aigars: This McCann Erickson path started and lasted almost 10 years. It was a wonderful experience and I was in charge in strategy, as in what directions clients should go. I was most excited about working with local businesses, and I was most fascinated by the idea that you can cooperate with a company, understand what they do, be able to see it and afterwards turn it into a story that works. Looking back at it, I now remember what I enjoyed the most with those clients was that I could visit the company and go deep. I liked to visit a bakery and understand the bread-making process. I liked it when a story could be built about how the things are done. Or, like with Rīgas Piena Kombināts or Limbažu Piens, how cheese is created and why the truckles are so large. I understand that I've always been drawn to going deep into how things are created. I believe a story must be somehow true to the core, to the seed that is planted. Where it grows from. It's not enough with showing happy people making statements, you need to somehow show the craftsmanship, where it all comes from, and you have to find a way to accent that. And I liked the slogan that McCann Erickson had and that I still see today before my eyes. It was also a lesson that I have taken with me when creating Valmiermuiža and in the following years, and the slogan is “Truth well told”. I think it was created in 1910 or something, the slogan is over 100 years old. I remember like it was today how excited I was by the idea of Nestlé, being a food company so big and successful all over the globe, they had this book about Nestlé, I opened it and the first page had this sentence – Strong brands taste better. They had researched it in all sorts of focus groups globally and found that in order to build a strong brand it has to taste better, and that's what Nestlé say. I thought there's something big and grand about it. And then after these 10 years at McCann Erickson I always had this urge inside – what if you push this ‘taste better' to the front, what if you put the product in front – the taste itself before everything else. What if you stand out with the excellence of your product, be it Ferrari or Apple, how to stand out with your product. The story comes after, the marketing or advertising story follows. How can you have the product be excellent on its own? Then somehow thinking and putting the picture together, I reached the idea of a brewery. This was a coincidence and also a logical turn of events. If you put the whole story together, I have come back to what I was first excited about – production management. I got back not to manufacturing but to craftsmanship, a small brewery and creating a brand based on it tasting better. I've currently returned to craftsmanship, from carpentry as a teenager to craftsmanship 30 years later.How do you personally define a brand? And what is a well-told brand, or a brand story?Aigars: At the basis of everything is what you have in your heart. Like a good artist or a good carpenter or a good musician, a good football player – what do they want to do? What is their passion? If I think in the context of a lifestyle company or think specifically about Valmiermuiža, I believe the basis of everything is this passion. I'm lucky enough that I can add the place to the equation – Valmiera, Valmiermuiža, I have a lot of emotional, cultural and life experience here. It's where I was born, you can add the place that is in your heart.I like the saying that you mentioned, good brands taste better. Many manufacturers also come and tell us “Yeah, we want to build a brand and we need the brand and it will give added value”. How do you define what is and what is not a brand?Aigars:  What surprises me is that many companies first look for good sales people and that good sales people often get a bigger salary than technologists. Or good engineers or cooks, flavor developers, graphic designers. Oftentimes, the role of sales and selling is valued somewhat higher than the development of product excellence. I though it was important to remain loyal to those values and to why the company was created, which is the mission or purpose of a company, which for Valmiermuiža was to return beer to the common festive table, and it's important to think about how this excellence can be developed.You have the Valmiermuiža brand, but you also have other brands – Gardu Muti, Kokmuiža, and some smaller initiatives you have also created. How do you decide when to create a new brand and when to add products to existing brands as a new line? How do you structure the brands like chess pieces, what are the criteria for your decision to build a new brand or including something under the Valmiermuiža story?Aigars: The Gardu Muti brand is about Latvian flavors. I got to the idea in the previous crisis. It was a hard time for everyone. I've always thought to ask myself – what can I do when it's hard for me and others. Initially the idea was to encourage Latvians to visit craftsmen of taste, go and see how hemp butter is made, how cider is made, so we created this website gardumuti.lv to promote the so-called gourmet tourism. People would have the opportunity to visit a craftsman, pay for the visit, buy something, then the small craftsmen who haven't become large farm producers can remain in their place, in the countryside, do what they do best, develop these gourmet tours. They can feed themselves, send their kids to school, in a way also show and take pride in the unique Latvian flavors as we see it being done in other countries. Then we thought – what's the next thing we could do? I've always had this itch when going to restaurants and bars, when I gradually started seeing Valmiermuiža in the beer menu or other small craft breweries in other restaurants, but the non-alcoholic drinks side still had Coca Cola, Fanta, Sprite. So I asked myself – why is it that there are no local alternatives? What are the local alternatives? Or what could they be? Going through these fairs with Gardu Muti and looking for them, we got the idea that we could achieve Latvians having their own zelteris-type drinks. I think it's a wonderful name showing that it's been around for generations of Latvians. Then I though we could make quince zelteris, turns out it can be biological because quince is easy to grow clean. That's how we got the idea of biological quince zelteris, and we sat our buyers liked it. So organically we started thinking about the next flavor. We thought of lingonberries – the great treasure of the Latvian forest. We created lingonberry zelteris, followed by rhubarb, and we will soon add black currant zelteris. It was a natural path of development thinking about what Latvian flavors are and how we can promote them in collaboration with others. The second broader known brand that we currently have is Kokmuiža, and that was created through research with Valmiermuiža brewery in mind. 12 years ago, when I studied the traditions and history of beer-brewing in Valmiera and Vidzeme, and I was surprised that the region of Valmiera had many large and well-known breweries, and I thought it was a really inspiring story of how a brewery in Kokmuiža could craft beer that was renowned in Paris, Riga, having medals. I even see on logos that they had wagons inside. Why did they have wagons? Turns out they were proud that beer from Kokmuiža, which is next to Valmiera, was exported even to Vladivostok and all over Russia, it was a giant business and if not for the two world wars that Latvia had suffered so hard and we hadn't become a part of the USSR, Latvian beer possibly would have been known in the world as widely as Czech or Belgian beer, because this tradition and craftsmanship was immense. Latvia was perhaps not the most developed center in Europe at that time, but what surprised me was that the Kokmuiža brewery tried to quickly implement the trendiest, most modern both in brewing technology and in flavors. Here and today at Kokmuiža, we would like to introduce beer drinkers with a variety of beer flavors and styles and thus enrich the culture of beer drinking in Latvia and in this way also to have these different beer styles brewed in Latvia instead of importing them.If a new entrepreneur came to you now, wanting to create their brand story, what are the 3 first steps you would suggest? How to construct a new story, what are the basic components that should be considered when creating a new story?Aigars:  If you're a small business, you have to start by answering the question – what am I? You as a person, as a personality – what are the values you support? What are the things which you want to be excited about? What is the contribution you would most happy about if you contributed to your town, your country, the world? You begin by looking into the mirror and trying to determine the values that speak to you personally. Then look at the kind of excellence you want to be known for. A small business can stand out only through excellence. The point of excellence can be the most natural material, the greenest, the coolest, the reddest product. There are numerous ways to provide excellence, and it has to be like a fine needle – you prick with it and you instantly know that this is your excellence, that's the way you are different and stand out. The third thing is asking yourself – how many people will there be that will need this? I believe that small businesses have the wonderful opportunity of checking it really fast by selling online, posting something on Instagram, seeing the reaction not only among friends but also a broader public. You can go to a couple of markets and talk to people. You'll see that really fast if you try to have someone put it onto the shelves of a small store and see if it sells. I believe It's very important to see early on if someone else needs the product. To see that it's working regardless of the design. At the initial stage, the design might be important, but it's not crucial. Afterwards, people will appreciate the excellence of the product itself, you can perfect the design and try to scale it. Going back to the experience at the agency and also from the perspective of the company, looking back at it, what would be the things you perhaps don't believe anymore among those that agencies always say you have to do a certain way? Like what you mentioned earlier, striving for excellence. Maybe the consumer doesn't want so much excellence? What are the things that you see now being on the business side that need more investing and more attention?Aigars: Working as a small business and walking the organic development path slowly and steadily using social media and your own story. In my experience, you have to understand the road is slow, it's gradual, it's like a long marathon. It's not like when you work at ad agencies and in their circumstances if you have a product, you can get the big guns out suddenly, like a rocket launch straight into space, where after a couple minutes you already have achieved your goals. With a small company, you do it gradually. Sometimes it takes 10 times longer. Anyway, it takes longer than I initially had imagined. People find out about the Valmiermuiža brand, these new tastes they meet, they evaluate the new flavors, and then you have them available for a broader market. I also understand how important it is to have good craftsmen around you. When you yourself are in the marketing and advertising agency environment every day, it's like you're sharpening your knife every day. You have a very sharp understanding of all the trends in the world, in the market, what are the things that work. The knife is very sharp. When you get to the perspective of the brewery, I sharpen my knife every day, not so much on the communication side anymore, but on the taste refinement side. At some point I might lose the very sharp sense of the next big thing in design or graphic design. Graphic design, most clearly.It's good what you mentioned earlier about looking ahead. Whenever I've had the opportunity to talk to you in the recent years, one trait I've noticed is when you have a project, you grow it without hurry, they take not even months, but sometimes years. You've mentioned 3 presidents changing, you have this goal for Latvian flavors, using different products. You've mentioned in conversations that products are sometimes polished for a coupe of years, it's a long-term vision of things that must be executed long-term. At the same time, when you head daily business operations, you might need to make fast decisions daily. This spring, you started online sales very quickly, within a couple of weeks after the situation demanded it. On the other side, you have these long-term things.Aigars: I believe that for each idea it's important to align the idea, the execution and the right time. Some years ago, I read a huge study done by an international consulting company about what makes businesses successful. They studied the usual data, a lot of it, and in the end, they got to the conclusion that in order for a business to be successful, 3 things must align – the right idea, the right execution, and the right time. If any of these elements is off, I can have the most wonderful idea and execution, but if I launch it at the wrong time, too early or too late, then we have the chance to have different mistakes with any of these elements. That's why right now, when the crisis hits you instantly have to re-assess these things. Some ideas might be right for this time. How to choose whether to launch into the market or keep perfecting? I think the first thing is to ask whether what I'm doing is in line with my values and the values of the particular brand. Even if it's a deep crisis, don't do something that you'd be embarrassed of after the crisis. They sometimes call it the blush test. It means that if you do something in the rush of a crisis that you'll be blushing about post-crisis, don't do it under any crisis circumstances. What's important for me is the big belief and feeling of conviction, I guess that's how I can define the second criterion. At a certain point you're still thinking, doubting, not sure if all the elements are aligned successfully to completion. When the sound is complete and the story is complete, and I am certain myself. When I'm certain, I can even climb the Everest with complete persuasion, whatever the difficulties I face. I think it's very important to perfect the brand until the point where I myself am persuaded as the captain of this ship that this conviction, this idea, this taste is what I'm ready to ship into the storm and through many years to come.I wanted to ask: what do you think about brands from Latvia? I think you're one of the ambassadors speaking for things made in Latvia, Latvian flavors, Latvian brands. What would you like to wish upon and see more of in local brands that are going out into the world, what would you like to see more of in them?Aigars:  I think it's very important to think in the dimension of sustainability, for Latvian design to be more sustainable. I don't think Latvian design can compete with fast fashion, and I think currently in the world there is no trend of trying to compete with fast fashion. One thing could be sustainable design, and, in order to create it, you really need to think whether it can be functionally used for a long enough time, then spend time not only on artistic creation but also work with engineers and different specialists in order to provide functionality for a reasonable time. Go through a testing stage. And then we could talk about Latvian design not only in terms of vain visual excellence, but also this sustainability in the design. My second wish to Latvian designers is: don't be afraid of things being replicated. I find the Scandinavian design story very inspiring. The reason Scandinavian design is known all around the world is that they have managed to make design democratic. I'm not talking about Ikea here, which is maybe a whole different story, but also Finnish designers. There are solid beautiful examples, also other Swedish businesses that have managed to enter high quality design into production and replicate it. Don't be scared to make it available to people through replication. I believe it's important to take pride in being able to scale the idea, while retaining your business or design values in terms of quality. That could be my second wish. And the third must be: look for more ways in which Latvian companies can collaborate even more. Under these circumstances of crisis, it's clear that each business has their challenges and difficulties, but maybe by coming together you can create some new collabs, and such work results in wonderful new products, a new taste, perhaps a new market opens up to you. Like for us right now, an interesting collaboration is with Obdo Gin, the first gin made in Latvia and made from Latvian herbs, and we thought of gin, the first association is gin and tonic. And what's the Latvian tonic? We have a wonderful Gardu Muti zelteris soda. When Gardu Muti meets Latvian gin, a wonderful gin cocktail is born with rhubarb, gin and quince, a new flavor is born, we can mix it and bottle it in Valmiermuiža because we have very good bottling equipment, and the results of three months' work is a wonderful new flavor. This peculiar time will probably last the next couple of years, and by coming together and creating together, I really wish to see new opportunities and challenges, businesses reaching out to collaborate, looking at opportunities to create new synergies in cooperation so that each side becomes stronger.Thank you Aigars, good luck bringing the taste of Latvia into the world. Thank you!Aigars:  Thank you Miķelis! I want to wish for us together to manage to create the taste of Latvia and Latvian design in order to bring it into the world, so that the Latvian symphony is multi-instrumental and covers all the senses, and that's why we need to collaborate. This way, I believe we'll have many wonderful Latvian success stories in the future.--Valmiermuižas Alushttps://www.valmiermuiza.lv/Gardu Mutihttp://gardumuti.lv/Kokmuižas Alushttp://kokmuiza.lv/Aigars Ruņģishttps://www.linkedin.com/in/aigars-rungis-6156a03b/?originalSubdomain=lv--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

Ņikita Kazakevičshttps://www.linkedin.com/in/nikitakazakevics/?originalSubdomain=lv--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Apple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgYouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

Jānis Lanka: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janislanka/?originalSubdomain=ca--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Apple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgYouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

Gints Mednis: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gintsmednis/?originalSubdomain=lvSonarWorks: https://www.sonarworks.com/SoundID: https://www.sonarworks.com/soundid/listen--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Apple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgYouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/