Podcasts about Channel Zero

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep480! The Atlanta heat matched the show heat this week, in particular because the homies LUNDEN BENARD, VURSATYL, ULLNEVANO, KENN STARR and ILLIEN ROSEWELL dropped off two WORLD EXCLUSIVES! DOE and MEEKS got into a brief recap of Doe's appearance at CRAFT AND CRATES this past weekend at HALFWAY CROOKS in Atlanta, and dished on a myriad of other topics that will tickle your fancy. Hit all the typical podcast plattys for the goods (links in bio), and if you want to catch the Twitch replay you can find that next Monday at CHANNEL ZERO on youtube.com/@publicenemy! #THAAAAANKYAAAAA and #YOUWAAAAALCOME for this #SMITHSONIANGRADE // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live August 16, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- “Pre-Game Beats” - Observe “Southern Vangard Radio Theme Song”- Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “City Drop” - Emapea “Explicit Material” - Inspectah Deck ft. Esoteric (prod. 7L & Pat Vandyke) “In The Height Of Night Fall” - Jay Royale & Pete Twist Featuring Rigs “At All Costs” (Milkcrate Remix) - Benny Slumz & Freddie Black ft. Tone Spliff “Dominican Steak” - Nowaah The Flood x Giallo Point “No Acetone” - John Jigg$ & EZ Elpeee ft. Shabaam Sahdeeq & Reef Hustle "Ghosted You” - Styles P “Made You Look (Megz Remix)” - Hus Kingpin ft. Shyheim (prod. Manny Megz) “Absolutely No One Is Invited To The Cookout” - Von Pea Talk Break Inst. - “4:21 Donut” - Emapea “100 Percent Payne” - RJ Payne (prod. C-Lance) “Hurricane Gloria” - Von Pea “Outside” - Lunden Bernard ft. Vursatyl ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Talk Ya Shit” - Busta Rhymes & J Dilla ft. Lil Wayne "The Nice Guys” - Big Shot Manceeni x Nottz ft. Illien Rosewell & Khizman “Sunshine” - UllNevaNo x Kenn Starr (prod. Illien Rosewell) ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Good Day (Milkcrate Remix)” - Buckshot “Lighter Fluid” - Inspectah Deck ft. Eto, Mickey Factz & RJ Payne) (prod. PA Dre) Talk Break Inst. - “Good Morning Mr. Sun” - Emapea “Nicodemus” - Nowaah The Flood x Giallo Point “Steal From The Pocket” - Bill Tapes “H.E.C.T.O.R." - Inspectah Deck (prod. PA Dre) “Kool & The Gang” - Chris Jose, Dango Forlaine & Bozack Morris “Press A Button” - Snotty ft. BeenOfficialLord “Left Lane” - UFO Fev & Machacha “Pull Up” - B.a Badd ft.Yung Stizz “Bleu Strip$” - Bub Rock (prod. The Standouts) Talk Break Inst. - “Good Morning Mr. Sun” - Emapea

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep479! Oh boy do we have some TREATS for y'all this week. Our good homie DJ RHETTMATIC of THE BEAT JUNKIES blessed us with his upcoming new album with Q-UNIQUE - before anyone else in the world! That's right y'all - you heard album cuts from THE QR CODE here first! The album drops this Friday, Aug 7, and it's chock full of heaters. Rhett even blessed us with QR Code instrumentals, so we featured those during the talk breaks. There's also quite the Twitch only set as well which you can catch on the Twitch replay next Monday at CHANNEL ZERO on youtube.com/@publicenemy! ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? NO - TOO BAD, WE DON'T CARE! YES? Well #THAAAAANKYAAAAA and #YOUWAAAAALCOME for this #SMITHSONIANGRADE // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live August 2, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - Shaolin Drunk “Southern Vangard Theme Song” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “Cypher Up” - Rhettmatic “Up Dat” - Onyx (prod. Quab Lab) “Oh My Lawd” - The Bad Seed X Slvrbck Lauren “Gunna” - Kurupt & DJ Battlecat ft. RBX “Faith” - Q-Unique & Rhettmatic ft. Sonny Dread of P.O.D. ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Sunny Daze” - Alpha Centori & Shyste Chronkyte “Sunito” - Sayzee & Tona “Foul Line Freestyle” - Crimeapple (prod. Buck Dudley) Talk Break Inst. - “Comic Con Nerd Shit” - Rhettmatic “The Meltdown” - Q-Unique & Rhettmatic ft. Esoteric of CZARFACE ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Signal” - Homeboy Sandman & Jack Splash ft. Masta Ace “I Neva Had” - The Bad Seed X Slvrbck Lauren “Emcees Recognise” - Sam Krats ft. Artifacts “Hard To Learn” - Leedz Edutainment ft. Torae, Skyzoo, Reks & DJ Slipwax “Suckcess” - Q-Unique & Rhettmatic ft. Mr. Mecc ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “GiT Ready (BK Version)” - Nas & DJ Premier (prod. DJ 2-Tone Jones) Talk Break Inst. - “The Meltdown” - Rhettmatic “Rivi” - Goosebytheway “Duffle” - Nickelus F ft. Rome Streetz "Double Nickel In The Garden” - Doc Da Mindbenda ft. IamGAWD “When Leatherface Meets Wolfman” - Interstellar ft. RJ Payne & Mickey Diamond “Saudi Mecca” - Mondo Slade (prod. Minister Hyde) “Acid Rain” - Nickelus F “Suite At The Ritz” - Codenine x Vinyl Villain ft. Chyna Baejing Talk Break Inst. - “Faith” - Rhettmatic ** TWITCH ONLY SET ** “All In The Mind” - Q-Unique & Rhettmatic ft. Ras Kass ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “I Aint Did Enough” - Goosebytheway “Donuts” - Frank Nitt ft. Illa J (prod. Der Brxwnsxn) “Dr. Strange” - Nickelus F “Many Styles Of El-Eye” - SYNZ + MATH “Genosha” - Level 13 X New Villain “Made Of Gold” - Dark Lo & V Don “Walk Ups - Goosebytheway ft. Conway The Machine & Fuego Base

This week, we sat down with writer, producer, and showrunner Nick Antosca, the creator behind the shows Channel Zero, The Act, Brand New Cherry Flavor, and the new Apple TV+ series Cape Fear, whose season finale just aired. Nick shared how Jaws and Night of the Living Dead first introduced him to horror as a child and also gave us a behind-the-scenes look at what a showrunner actually does. We also discussed Cape Fear and how he reimagined the iconic story for modern audiences, reinvented Max Cady with Javier Bardem in the role, and approached the adaptation. And of course, Nick shared some great horror recommendations that every fan should check out. This was an awesome conversation about adaptation and the creative process behind some incredible horror projects, sooo… COME HANG OUT!!! Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram & Threads: @mostlyhorrorpodTikTok & Twitter/X: @mostlyhorrorSteve: @stevenisaverage (all socials)Sean: @hypocrite.ink (IG/TikTok), @hypocriteink (Twitter/X)Enjoyed this episode? Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform to help us reach more horror fans like you! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep478! After a stellar episode last week with in-studio guest DJ 2-TONE JONES, the fellas are back on that dynamic duo ish with that usual trash talk, new joints and stellar smells. If you're in the Atlanta area August 15, make sure you stop by and check out our own DJ JON DOE throwing down for CRAFTS AND CRATES at HALFWAY CROOKS alongside J RAWLS, DJ DAINJA, PEPPERMINT GATTY, MAFIOSO, AOS FRESH and JB'S RECORDS. We squeezed in a Twitch only set as well which you can catch on the Twitch replay next Monday at CHANNEL ZERO / youtube.com/@publicenemy! CAN YOU SMELL IT? IT'S THAT #YOUWAAAAALCOME #SMITHSONIANGRADE // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live June July 26, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- “Pre-Game Beats” - GRMMFACE “Southern Vangard Theme” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “Mercy” - EL Maryacho “Marathon Or Race” - Rome Streetz ft. Westside Gunn (prod. Denny Laflare) “Kruger (Remix)” - Nems & Ron Browz ft. Pharaoahe Monch “The Summers” - Level 13 X New Villain ft. Emhyr Rhymes “12th Round Magic” - Doc Da Mindbenda ft. WateRR “War” - Mondo Slade ft. Sean Links (prod. Wino Willy) “Killer Instinct” - Libretto & Theory Hazit ft. Lunden Bernard & A Man Called Jai “Slow It Down (Original Mix)” - Chrome Waves Talk Break Inst. - “Save Venezuela” - EL Maryacho “World On Fire” - Homeboy Sandman & Jack Splash ft. Cee-Lo Green “Combine As One” - SYNZ + MATH (cuts DJ Jon Doe) “God Gotta Afro” - Rapsody feat. Karabo Ya Morena (prod. Denaun Porter) “Streets Of LA” - Supreme Cerebral & The Beat Junkies (prod. DJ Rhettmatic) “No Surprise” - Leedz Edutainment ft. Murs, Blueprint & Sareem Poems “Brothers Grimm” - Czarface ft. Frankie Pulitzer “Godskrilla” - Kaeson Skrilla (prod. Doza The Drum Dealer) Talk Break Inst. - “G Day G Life” - EL Maryacho “Show And Prove” - Shabaam Sahdeeq ft. Bad Seed & Tone Spliff (prod. Castle Money Beats) “Faces Of Death” - Supreme Cerebral & The Beat Junkies (prod. DJ D-Styles) “Everything” - Mondo Slade ft. Estee Nack (prod. King Rem) “Trapaholic Standout” - Jamal Gasol & The Standouts “Green Cabbage” - ??? aka The Hidden Character x Vish ft. Codenine “Every Rapper Thinks They're Tony Montana” - Chong Wizard ft. Icecoldbishop, Chris Crack & Michael Christmas “Artful Dodger” - Eff Yoo (prod. Kel C) Talk Break Inst. - “Love That Feeling” - EL Maryacho ** TWITCH ONLY SET ** “MUUUURDERAH” - Eto ft. Jai Black (prod. Christiannity) “Precipice” - El Gant & Maticulous ft. DJ Jon Doe “Twisted Mentality” - Bill Tapes “Unbelievable” - Nems & Ron Browz “What I Bring To The Table” - Buckshot “Capital P” - Sean Price ft. Bernadette Price “BuSTelo” - DJ Deadeye ft. Sean P, Termanology & Smif-N-Wessun

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep477! We're back from summer break Vangardians, and boy do we have a doozy for you this week. Our good friend DJ 2-TONE JONES from DC was in the A visiting, so he dropped by to celebrate the 5 year anniversary of his “CONTRABAND IN INDIA” project (which also means it's been 5 years since we interviewed him for said project). We also got a face melting set from Tone that included cuts from his new Nas & DJ Premier remix project, “Light Years RePREMIERED” - you best hit his Bandcamp now to cop the limited vinyl before it's gone, it's a must cop. On top of that we had WORLD EXCLUSIVES from E SMITTY, HOUSE OF CHA CHA (big up DJ TREY LUV for the connect), NEMS & RON BROWNZ upcoming “I SHOULD BOOM YOU TOO” that drops this Friday (BIG UP to JORDAN COMMANDEUR for the alley oop)! We never steer ya wrong folks, so hit play now on all your podcast plattys, and tap in for the Twitch replay next Monday courtesy of CHANNEL ZERO / youtube.com/@publicenemy - ONE LOVE to JENNY O, ULTRA MAG, C-DOC and the Chanel Zero crew! #YOUWAAAAALCOME #SMITHSONIANGRADE // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live June July 19, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - Selections from Mos Def “The Ecstatic” “Southern Vangard Theme Song” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “Many Styles Of El Eye' - SYNZ + MATH “'95 Mega On Shrooms” - Rome Streetz ft. Styles P (prod. Denny Laflare) “Gotta Get The Dough” - Supreme Cerebral & The Beat Junkies ft. Jamil Honesty (prod. DJ Babu) “The Mixa” - E. Smitty & House Of Cha Cha ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Up Late” - Libretto & Theory Hazit ft. ZOO “No Jacket Required (Remix)” - Zilla Rocca & Disco Vietnam ft. Eddie Meeks and Alaska “Belt 2 Ass” - Rome Streetz (prod. Conductor Williams) Talk Break Inst. - “The Curry Out" - DJ 2-Tone Jones ft. Uptown X.O., Let the Dirt Say Amen & Kenilworth Katrina (prod. Drew Dave) ** DJ 2-Tone Jones Set ** “Buddhists on Beatties Ford” - DJ 2-Tone Jones ft. J Scienide & Supastition (prod. The Mighty DJ DR) “Welcome to the Underground (92 Version)” - Nas & DJ Premier (DJ 2-Tone Jones Remix) “D. Original Madman” - Nas & DJ Premier (DJ 2-Tone Jones Remix) “Hip Hop Junkie” - Nas & DJ Premier (DJ 2-Tone Jones Remix) “N.E.N.” - DJ 2-TONE JONES “Apollo Music” - Shaolin Jazz “Blue Hype” - Shaolin Jazz “Waitin' for Firewater” - Shaolin Jazz “Cash Tapes” - Nas & DJ Premier (DJ 2-Tone Jones Remix) Talk Break Inst. - “Three Piece” - DJ 2-Tone Jones “.22” - Rome Streetz (prod. Havoc) “Kindness For Weakness” - Substance810 (prod. BackwoodsMuzik) “444” - BZA & Estee Nack “D.A.R.E” - Maze Overlay & Rob Denir0 ft. Swab “Michigan Time” - Substance810 ft. Josiah The Gift) (Prod. By Hanzo Bladez) “The Southpaw” - Stan Ipcus “Natural State Of Being” - SYNZ + MATH (cuts DJ Jon Doe) Talk Break Inst. - “One Thing To Another” - SYNZ + MATH ** TWITCH ONLY SET ** “Glocktalk” - Nems & Ron Brownz ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “DEDM” - Nems & Ron Brownz ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** "The Bar Exam (BDI Remix)” - Nems & Ron Brownz ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Good Day” - Buckshot “Neo 90's" - Jeff Johnson ft. El Da Sensei “Step Ya Bars Up” - Devine Carama & Amadeus360 ft. Che Noir “You Got Me Mesmorized” - Devine Carama & Amadeus360 ft. Rasheed Chappell “Combine As One” - SYNZ + MATH (cuts DJ Jon Doe)

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep475! Twenty-five…we said TWENTY-FIVE episodes away from Episode 500. Get ready for whatever it is we have coming in the fall to celebrate, we're guessing around October. On the regular biz tip, this weeks episode finds us with 3, 5-song sets of raw, including a WORLD EXCLUSIVE from the homies EL GANT and MATICULOUS, who have an album on the way shortly. If you missed this episode's Twitch stream, you can alway catch the replay courtesy of CHANNEL ZERO / youtube.com/@publicenemy on Mondays at 9p ET! #YOUWAAAAALCOME #SMITHSONIANGRADE // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live June 1, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - House Shoes Presents: BEATS!!!! THE JAPANESE SOUND! “Southern Vangard Theme” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “Slump Foot” - K-Def “Golden Sound” - Jada & S14H ft. Murs (prod. 9th Wonder) “Hieroglyphics Faction” - Hieroglyphics “Supreme Junkies” - Supreme Cerebral & The Beat Junkies (prod. Dj Rhettmatic) “Breakfast” - AlumNY (Kil Ripkin, Dynas & Jah Freedom) “Cocaine Coltraine” - Rome Streetz (prod. Denny LaFlare) Talk Break Inst. - “The Hand That Rocks” - K-Def “Every Day Shit” - Hieroglyphics “YellowCake” - Mazzi & Soul Purpose “TwoSevenFour” - Nenjah Nycist x Cut Beetlez “ReMind” - Errol Eats Everything ft. Raz Fresco & Cla'ence Jo “Nonsense - Greezi Amiin Talk Break Inst. - “Weird Behavior” - K-Def “Motion” - UFO Fev & Eto “On Code” - Noah-O (prod. DK) “Write Your Congressman” - Whose ft. Hans Einztien, Propaganda & Jarren Benton “House Of Cards” - El Gant & maticulous ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Head Cleaner” - Chong Wizard ft. ELUCID Talk Break Inst - “Sneak Up 72” K-Def “Theme from the Planets” - Dexter Wansel

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep476! It's the summer send off y'all - ‘round this time of year we take a little summer sabbatical to recharge. The good homie DJ Pocket came thru to hang out, and the one and only TERROR VAN POO laced us with a few exclusives from his upcoming LP TERROR VAN PUTIN. We'll see y'all in mid-July - until then go catch a few episodes or interviews from the archive, and you can always catch Twitch replays courtesy of CHANNEL ZERO / youtube.com/@publicenemy on Mondays at 9p ET! #YOUWAAAAALCOME #SMITHSONIANGRADE // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live June 7, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - Mitchum Yacoub Southern Vangard Theme - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “Kuroi Kagami” - Akhavelli “Ron G” - Teeg Austin ft. Mari Niko (prod. Matt To The Future) Don't Get Me Started” - Supreme Cerebral & The Beat Junkies (prod. Dj Babu) “Almanak” - Mo Buks & Doza The Drum Dealer ft. Doza The Drum Dealer “Don't Get Jammed” - Shabaam Sahdeeq ES-K “Hell Yeah” - Terror Van Poo X Vinny Idol Talk Break Inst. - “Shams Al-Layl” - Akhavelli “I Never Liked Your Ass Freestyle” - John Jigg$ X EZ Elpee “Scalpels & Forceps” - Shabaam Sahdeeq & ES-K ft. U.G. Ruste Juxx “Chill” - Emskee X Jason Famous Beats “Win” - Jav The Dentist ft. Opio “Drownin'" - Cashus King & Big O “How It All Started” - Milano Constantine vs Morockko Plus “Cinema” - Jav The Dentist ft. El Da Sensei, John Robinson & Mandella Eskia “Windows Down” - Shabaam Sahdeeq & ES-K ft. ILL Dose, Slim Chance Talk Break Inst. - “Kansho Kage” - Akhavelli “We Made It Off of Dope” - Jus-P ft. G.S. Advance & Billy Danze “Feel Good Over 50” - Terror Van Poo X Vinny Idol ft. Bernadette Price “Been There Done That” - Shabaam Sahdeeq & ES-K “Infinity Castle” - The Black Depths ft. Planet Asia “Bak 4 More” - Mo Buks & Doza The Drum Dealer "No More Locked Doors” - BoriRock “The Cost of Doing Business” - Thurz, 14KT “Brilliance Master” - Eff Yoo “EverLast” - Brother Tom Sos Talk Break Inst. - “Real To Reel” - Akhavelli

Em abril de 2018 um usuário do 4chan postou uma foto enigmática em resposta a uma thread sobre lugares desconcertantes. Sem legenda nem descrição, a foto mostrava apenas um ambiente vazio, com um carpete e papel de parede amarelados. Poucos anos depois, os Backrooms tornaram-se um dos maiores fenômenos recentes da internet. Tendo sua lore construída por milhares de usuários ao longo dos últimos anos, as salas infinitas encontraram em Kane Parsons um de seus criadores mais inspirados. Com apenas 16 anos de idade na época, “Kane Pixels” postou seu primeiro curta found footage sobre Backrooms em janeiro de 2022. Mais de 80 milhões de visualizações depois, Parsons se tornou responsável pela maior bilheteria da história da A24, levando o gigantesco fenômeno da internet para as telonas. Mas será que Backrooms: Um Não-Lugar cumpre seu papel como filme independente? Tome cuidado para não escorregar para fora da realidade e dê play neste RdMCast que tenta cobrir todos os 600 milhões de “milhas quadradas” de Backrooms.O RdMCast é produzido e apresentado por: Thiago Natário, Gabriel Braga e Gabi Larocca.Apoie o RdM e receba recompensas exclusivas: https://apoia.se/rdmCITADOS NO PROGRAMA:Backrooms: Um Não-Lugar (2026)@kanepixelsThe Mythology of the Backrooms ExplainedKane Parsons on the psychology of liminal spaces and BackroomsBackrooms Director Kane Parsons Breaks Down His InspirationsHow 14 Year-Old Kane Parsons' Blender Hobby Turned into a Hollywood Movie | BACKROOMS | TIFFCitações off topic:Portal (Videogame, 2007)Portal 2 (Videogame, 2011)Control (Videogame, 2019)The Exit 8 (Videogame, 2023)The Amazing Digital Circus: O Último Ato (2026)Mr. Robot (2015 – 2019)Retratos de uma Obsessão (2002)Valor Sentimental (2025)Creep (2014)Channel Zero (2016 – 2018)Alien: Romulus (2024)Aniquilação (2018)EPISÓDIOS CITADOS:RdMCast #352 – Ruptura: humanos do capitalismo tardioRdMCast #451 – Guerra Civil: violência política nos EUA e o jornalismo de guerraRdMCast #554 – ObsessãoRdMCast #467 – Alien: RomulusRdMCast #355 – Embate Sci-Fi: Ex Machina X AniquilaçãoSiga o RdMYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Rep%C3%BAblicadoMedoInstagram: @republicadomedoTwitter: @RdmcastEntre em contato através do: contato@republicadomedo.com.brLoja do RdMConheça nossos produtos: https://lojaflutuante.com.br/?produto=RdmPODCAST EDITADO PORFelipe LourençoESTÚDIO GRIM – Design para conteúdo digitalPortfólio: https://estudiogrim.com.br/Instagram: @estudiogrimContato: contato@estudiogrim.com.br

Be happy.

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep474! This week is a special one, Vangardians. Our long time friend, BIG KEN LUV aka CAVE CITY KENNY was in-studio and the ultimate bug-out ensued. BIG KEN was DJ JON DOE's co-host on “THE SCENARIO”, a weekly college radio show that aired on Sunday nights at WWHR 91.7 FM, Western Kentucky University's student-run radio station in the mid-late 90's. Oddly enough, THAT show was also on Sunday nights, so in typical fashion - it was just meant to be. Gobs of new joints, energy on 1 trilly, ultimate trash talk and more are waiting for you - just press play, sit back and enjoy the ride. If you missed this episode's Twitch stream, you can alway catch the replay courtesy of CHANNEL ZERO / youtube.com/@publicenemy on Mondays at 9p ET! #YOUWAAAAALCOME #SMITHSONIANGRADE // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live May 24, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - Chill Rob G “Southern Vangard Theme Song” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “Until There Are No More” - ChumZilla “A King's Ladder” - Recognize Ali & Giallo Point “Bow Down” - Da Inphamus Amadeuz x The Punchline Academy Fft.t One Sun & King Ishtah “Rumble” - D.V. Alias Khryst ft. VTwizzy, Trendsetta, Bada Bing & Will Sully “Go Brooklyn” - Mo Buks ft. Kaeson Skrilla, D. Goynz, Crise P & Doza The Drum Dealer “Night Of The Living Wage Slaves” - Primo JAB & Chuck Chan “Squeeze First” - Grafh ft. Benny The Butcher, Mike & Keys “Drum Talk” - Hieroglyphics “Blockbuster Night” - Smoke DZA & Memphis Bleek Talk Break Inst. - “Eye Know” - ChumZilla “Chillin W/ Ultra (Ronkonkoma)” - Jazzsoon ft. ULTRAMAG7 “Powerman & Iron Fist” - The Fabreeze Brothers (Paul Nice & Phill Most Chill) “Let's Go” - Chill Rob G ft. Chuck D “Airjordan” - Onry x Milipede ft. Aesop Rock “Still Dont Matter None” - Errol Eats Everything ft. Brother Ali “ExtraClips” - Mr Brady ft. Figueroa “Defy Death” - Recognize Ali & Giallo Point Talk Break Inst. - “Break ‘Em" ChumZilla “Cornerstone” - Writeous x BoneWeso “Prey B4 Tha Meal - Beedie “WWYA Remix Pt. 2” - Darkside Preme FT. Styles P & Uncle Murda “Get Serious” - Isaac Castor & Machacha “Monyun'” - Ankhlejohn & V Don ft. Sha Hef “Cold War” - 38 Spesh ft. Busta Rhymes (prod. Moose Tarnatino) “Buf To Bx” - Brother Tom Sos Talk Break Inst. - “Supercharged” - ChumZilla ** TWITCH ONLY SET ** ROB BASE TRIBUTE ** “Interlude” - Rob Base & DJ. E-Z Rock “Dope Mix” - Rob Base “Hype it Up” - Rob Base “Keep It Going Now (Hardcore Remix)” - Rob Base & DJ E-Z Rock “Joy And Pain” - Rob Base & DJ E-Z Rock “Space Dust” - The Galactic Force Band “I Wanna Rock” - Snoop Dogg “Suckas Need Bodyguards” - Gang Starr “The Way That I Rhyme” - J-Live “Where Are They Now (90s Remix)” - Nas ft. Rob Base “It Takes Scoop” - Fatman Scoop ft. DJ Kool “It Takes Two” - Rob Base & DJ EZ-Rock “Think (About It)” - Lyn Collins

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep474! RIP LIL IPHONE 5C NEON BWOI. EDDIE MEEKS “PHENYLALANINE” PROD. BY JONNY CUBA WITH CUTS BY DJ JON DOE MIXED AND MASTERED BY BAMBU DE ASIATIC OUT NOW. YOU CAN HEAR IT IN THIS EPISODE AND COP IT AT @ DJPOCKET.COM. If you missed this episode's Twitch stream, you can alway catch the replay courtesy of CHANNEL ZERO / youtube.com/@publicenemy on Mondays at 9p ET! #YOUWAAAAALCOME #SMITHSONIANGRADE // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live May 11, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - Doza The Drum Dealer x Work Scorsese Talk Break Inst - “It's All Bad” - Vanderslice “Southern Vangard Theme Song” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All Stars “Another Three” - Starvin B & One Take ft. Flushin Teck & Illa Ghee “Hear Me” - Estee Nack & Cookin Soul “Patricia” - Vstylez (prod. Marv Won) “Surprise” - AZ ft. Nas (prod.Mike & Keys) “On My Soul” - Rufus Sims, Ju Jilla & Xcelence “Maybe Yours” - Joe D. ft. Let The Dirt Say Amen Talk Break Inst - “Off The Scale” - Vanderslice “Iron Sharpens Iron" - Vstylez ft. The Bad Seed (prod. The Troubles) “Legendary Blocks” - Termanology & Royal Flush ft. Tek & UFO Fev) (prod. Melks & Termanology) “Airjordan” - Onry x Milipede ft. Aesop Rock “The Lay-Up” - Nowaah The Flood (prod. The Mali Empire) “For The Gig” - DJ Premier & The Alchemist “Peppers” - Action Bronson ft. Roc Marciano (prod. Daringer) “Still Jackie” - AZ (prod. Statik Selektah) Talk Break Inst - “Choke Hold” - Vanderslice “Phenylalanine” - Eddie Meeks (prod. Jonny Cuba, cuts DJ Jon Doe) “The Main Line” - 38 Spesh ft. Method Man (prod. TrickyTrippz) “Damage” - Vanderslice ft. Vic Spencer “Nobody” - Nowaah The Flood (prod. Circa 97) “More Or Less” - Estee Nack & Cookin Soul “G.F.Y.” - Doza The Drum Dealer x Work Scorsese Talk Break Inst - “Vintage Van Sleazy” - Vanderslice ** TWITCH ONLY SET ** “Take It Easy” - Mad Lion “Shoot To Kill” - Mad Lion “Black Cop” - KRS-One “Down With the King” - RUN DMC ft. Pete Rock & C.L. Smooth “Where Do I Go?” - Galt MacDermot, James Rado & Gerome Ragni

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep472! Fresh off the heels of another stellar Kentucky Derby weekend, your fellow Kentuckian (DJ Jon Doe) and fellow Tennessean (Eddie Meeks) are broadcasting live from the metro Atlanta area for yet another fun filled, action packed mix show that will turn your frown upside down. Not to mention we have a WORLD EXCLUSIVE from none other than DJ RHETTMATIC and Q-UNIQUE that features the one and only PHARAOAHE MONCH. Hit play right now good people - and remember that if you missed this episode's Twitch stream, you can alway catch the replay courtesy of CHANNEL ZERO every Monday at 9p ET in perpetuity @ youtube.com/@publicenemy! // #YOUWAAAAALCOME #SMITHSONIANGRADE // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live May 3, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - Bombay Da Realest “Southern Vangard Theme Song” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst - “The Hitters” - Kut One “Don't Blink” - Mickey Blue Feat. Copywrite, M-Dot “Rock On” - Sean Links & TrueCipher “Matters Of The Heart” - Farma G & Relense “Wordle” - El Gant & maticulous ft. Brother Ali "No Brakes" - Tha God Fahim & Sharp "Jefe” - Sean Links & TrueCipher Talk Break Inst - “You Know The Feeling” Cymarshall Law & Frigstep “This Is Not A Drill” - Natural Elements "Comic Con Nerd Shit” - Q-Unique & Dj Rhettmatic feat. Pharoahe Monch ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Unbreakable (Shylow Remix)” - Michael Jackson ft. Notorious B.I.G. "Focus Mode” - Leaf Dog “Last Place” - Marc Spano ft. Supastition & NapsNdreds “In My Window” - Blu & Exile ft. TOBi “Identity (MiLKCRATE Remix)” - Emskee x MiLKCRATE Talk Break Inst - “Rollercoaster Pt.2” - M-Dot & Confidence “Gun Butt” - Bernadette Price ft. Terror Van Poo (prod. Stu Bangas) "Get Off My Cross Trainers” - Chubs "Eat The Rich” - Chubs “Powerful” - DBL ft. Raf Almighty “Yellow Jackets” - Ullnevano “Marbled Delmonicos” - Jalen Frazier x Fumes The Threat "Everlasting Life” - Day Tripper Talk Break Inst - “Sky Reign” - Co-Defendants & M-Dot

Warning: This podcast contains sexually explicit content, adult themes, and mature language. It is intended for viewers 18 years and older only.Viewer Discretion is Strongly Advised. If you are under 18 or uncomfortable with NSFW/sexually graphic material, please do not listen. A drifter walks into the infamous No End House and finds nine rooms that force him to relive every deadly sin — sloth, envy, pride, wrath, greed, gluttony, and lust — while a silent black feral rooster watches. This original reimagining of the Reddit NoSleep classic blends psychological horror, occult folklore, and raw redemption. If you love Channel Zero, true horror stories, or dark creepypasta that actually hits the soul, this is for you. Which room would break you? Drop your answer below. #NoEndHouse #HorrorStory #CreepypastaThe Black Book is your gateway into the unknown. We craft chilling horror stories, bone-chilling thrillers, spine-tingling mysteries, and terrifying true-inspired tales that linger long after the video ends. Every story pulls you deep into the darkness—where shadows whisper, secrets unravel, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. From psychological horror and supernatural nightmares to suspenseful crime mysteries and unsettling urban legends, we deliver immersive narrated stories designed to keep you on the edge of your seat… or wide awake at 3 AM. If you love getting lost in the macabre, the eerie, and the unexplained, you've found your new favorite channel. New stories every week. #CreepypastaPerfect for late-night listening… if you dareTurn off the lights.Lean in close. And step From The Other Side.Subscribe and join the fear.

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep470! Spring has sprung here in Atlanta, Vangardians, so roll your windows down, turn up the volume and let's ride. This is also the time when folks really start unloading the clip music wise after a long, dreary winter, and it shows. Back to back bangers in each every set and back to back trash talk in every talk break. Don't forget that if you missed this episode's Twitch stream, you can alway catch the replay courtesy of CHANNEL ZERO / youtube.com/@publicenemy on Mondays at 9p ET! #YOUWAAAAALCOME and it's that #SMITHSONIANGRADE from Atlanta's most hated! // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live April 12, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - DeevoDaGenius / Budamunk - DeevoDaGenius “Southern Vangard Theme Song” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “Mental Health” - BHRAMABULL “Ryder Music” - Flee Lord ft. DirtyYayCochino (prod. PA Dre Beats) “Fuck You” - Bernadette Price ft. Terror Van Poo (prod. Stu Bangas) “Borderline” - AG & Stu Bangas ft. Diamond D & D-Flow “Cha Cha Chicken” - DJ Muggs x T.F “Stone Cold4” - Justo The MC & maticulous “Wishing” - Finale ft. DJ Illogik (prod. Apollo Brown) “Do Better” - Sayzee x Fludust ft. Asun Eastwood “Open Road” - Crimeapple ft. Seafood Sam Talk Break Inst. - “Full Recon” - BHRAMABULL “It Only Leads The Way” - Q-Unique & Dj Rhettmatic “K-Dot Pool” - Fat Ray & Raphy “Kickin' Flows” - Psych Major ( cuts DJ Enyoutee) “Poor Sports” - DJ Muggs x T.F “Blinders” - Greg Cypher ft. Headkrack & Tuesday Talaga “Stay Tuned (News @ 11)” - J Scienide “Soul Of Sade” - Supreme Cerebral Talk Break Inst. - “Fam Bam” - BHRAMABULL “100 Dollar Bill” - DJ Muggs x T.F “Feb 20” - Day Tripper “Flu Game” - Money Mogly x Fludust ft. Doza The Drum Dealer “Quarter Lbs Of Rapper” - Flee Lord (prod. Richard Milli) “Whippin' Cream” - Coyote & Statik Selektah ft. B-Real & Sick Jacken “Holy Family” - Al-Doe & Spanish Ran ft. Fabolous “Still Tippin" - MichaelAngelo, Primo Profit & RLX “Bath Salts” - Ferris Blusa & Swab “Water Whip” - DJ Muggs x T.F ft. Rome Streetz “Slow Motion” - DOECINO (Eddie Meeks + DJ Jon Doe) (prod. Vanderslice) Talk Break Inst. - “White Van” - BHRAMABULL

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep469! It's a WORLD EXCLUSIVE BONANZA this week, Vangardians - Napoleon Da Legend, Maitre D, DJ Crazy Bazarro, EvON + The Process, J Scienide, Waterr, Vanderslice, Daniel Son, Futurewave - you can't get it like this anywhere else, folks. Speaking of that - there's another place you can get this work every week, as this week marked our debut on CHANNEL ZERO / youtube.com/@publicenemy - yeah you read that right, read it again if ya need to. So now every Monday at 9p ET you can catch a replay of the Twitch stream from the week prior. BIG UP JENNIFER O JENNY, C-DOC, ULTRAMAG7, CHUCK D and the whole CHANNEL ZERO team for the support of love. Do we have to say it - of course we do - #YOUWAAAAALCOME and it's that #SMITHSONIANGRADE from Atlanta's most hated! // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live March 30, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - Circa 97 “Southern Vangard Theme Song” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “Scholars In Training” - Rico James “Dirty Timbs” - Def Soulja ft. Teeg Austin (prod. Brain Orchestra) “Aintthatabitch” - Dookie Bros “Hitters” - Kut One ft. RJ Payne, Rockness Monsta “Star Wars” - Napoleon Da Legend/Maitre D/Crazy DJ Bazarro ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Headayche” - Emskee x MiLKCRATE (cuts DJ Jon Doe) ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Light Out!.” - EvOn + The Process ft. J Scienide ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** Talk Break Inst. - “Through The Window” - Rico James “No Smoke” - Venom ft. Reef The Lost Cauze “Fire Vision” - Q-Unique & Rhettmatic ft. LMNO “Black Caesar” - Napoleon Da Legend/General Steele/Maitre D “Not Ya Average” - Emskee x MiLKCRATE (cuts DJ Jon Doe) ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Out Your Jurisdiction” WateRR x Vanderslice ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “45 MINUTES” - WateRR x Vanderslice ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** Talk Break Inst. - “Paper Planes Three” - Rico James “Broke Routine” - Daniel Son & Futurewave ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Falls Count Anywhere” - Ferris Blusa & Swab “Basically” - Mick Jenkins & greenSSLIME “Crystal Ball” - Nickelus F "Pottymouth” - Bub Styles (prod. Foulmouth) “Be Free” - The Artist Yahn Freeman fka Jon Connor (prod. Smitti Boi & Doc Uno) “History Lesson” - WateRR x Vanderslice ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Dear Winter” - Bub Rock (prod. Billy Hoyle) “Purple P's” - Wavy Da Ghawd ft. Bub Rock Talk Break Inst. - “Urgent Care” - Rico James “Slow Motion” - DOECINO (Eddie Meeks + DJ Jon Doe) (prod. Vanderslice) “Brothers Gonna Work It Out” - Public Enemy “Welcome To The Terrordome" - Public Enemy

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep468! Hey ho Vangardians, we're a a bit late getting this one out the gate on the plattys but it was worth the wait. First off - we have a WORLD EXCLUSIVE courtesy of our good friend JASON GRIFF, who has a project dropping with ALEX LUDOVICO in early MAY titled “A LOT TO UNPACK.” Yeah you read that right - you're getting it over a month before it drops worldwide! Second - make sure you check out DJ JON DOE's interview last week with C-DOC, ULTRAMAG7 and JENNIFER O JENNY on the IT'S C-DOC AGAIN show on CHANNEL ZERO! Yep THAT Channel Zero - big up CHUCK D and the whole CHANNEL ZERO / PUBLIC ENEMY fam. Last but not least - you can now find the Twitch replay of the show every Monday evening on CHANNEL ZERO. Big up JENNIFER O JENNY for the alley oop and #YOUWAAAAALCOME for this #SMITHSONIANGRADE! // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap ---------- Recorded live March 23, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks ---------- Pre-Game Beats - El Michels Affair “Southern Vangard Theme” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “I Am I” - Terilekst “Legendary” - Shyste Chronkyte ft. DJ TMB “Majestic” - Hus Kingpin ft. Ghostface Killah & Planet Asia (prod. Big Ghost Ltd) “Al & Andy” - Jamal Gasol & Denny Laflare ft. Jynx718 “#WSGtypebeat” - Alex Ludovico & Jason Griff ** WORLD EXCLUSIVE ** “Crumbs” - Blu x Exile ft. Rome Streetz & IceColdBishop “Same Corner” - SunN.Y. Talk Break Inst. - “Ethereal Views" - Terilekst “Shoe Fits” - Tash “CLAP (JFB Mix)” - T.F. ft. Ghostface Killah & DJ Muggs “RZA Fangs” - Hus Kingpin (prod. RZA) “Sean Price II” - Da Flyy Hooligan ft. Sean Price “Mic Rockin” - sham tha insOMNIac “Rollercoaster Pt. 2” - M-Dot & Confidence ft. Masta Ace "Ghost Of Camay” - Hus Kingpin (prod. Mathematics) Talk Break Inst. - “Wu Wei” - Terilekst “Sayyid Was Here" - Cormega ft. Sean Price (prod. Streetrunner) “No Warning” - Spoda x DJ Mickey Knox ft. Papoose “Phone Time Gawd" - Starz Coleman (prod. DJ Mike C) "Pay The Price" - Karbine ft. Rome Streetz “Remember” - Pretty Bulli & Kidd Called Quest “Big Shiny Box Of Nothing” - Al.Divino (prod. DJ MastaMind) “Switch Tucker” - Panamera P & Jose Franco SSW ft. Vic Spencer & Wordmann Talk Break Inst. - “Ecstatic Presence” - Terilekst

The boys trash trash TV, rage against afternoon soaps, and use the scientific method to conduct an autopsy on the corpse of Public Enemy's rap-metal riot, She Watch Channel Zero?!. News items and digressions include Flavor Flav trading giant clocks for gold medals as hype man for women's sports and host of a Las Vegas celebration honoring the United States women's national ice hockey team's championship run.

Welcome to another episode of the Following Films Podcast. Today, we are exploring a project that is equal parts hilarious, bizarre, and incredibly poignant: the animated feature film MARS. This film marks the final project from the legendary cult comedy troupe The Whitest Kids U'Know, serving as a bittersweet and brilliant capstone to the legacy of the late, beloved Trevor Moore. Joining me to discuss the Herculean effort required to bring this vision to the big screen is the film's director and producer, Sevan Najarian. He has been a vital force in the alternative media landscape for years, and in this episode, we trace his fascinating career path, from his early days getting into the director's chair for animation to his involvement with the irreverent and influential world of Channel Zero.We also dive deep into the "scrappy" and often painstaking labor of love that was the production of MARS. Conceptualized over a decade ago, the film follows Kyle, a man who enters a contest to go to the Red Planet mostly to escape his impending wedding, only to find himself stranded with a crew of lunatics on a ship that is anything but luxury. With an 8-city screening tour kicking off February 20th at participating Alamo Drafthouse locations and a wider theatrical release on March 13th, there has never been a better time to celebrate the return of the WKUK. So, let's get into my conversation with Sevan Najarian about the decade-long journey to the Red Planet, the evolution of his career, and why this story is more relevant today than ever before.

BANG! @southernvangard radio Ep461! The top of the year is busy y'all - on top of serving up the latest and greatest hip-hop on Ep461 this week, our very own Eddie Meeks dropped in on the IT'S C-DOC AGAIN podcast to talk about everything from his early hip-hop beginnings to meeting DJ Jon Doe to how Southern Vangard Radio began. Afte you get done riding to Ep461, make sure you slide over to CHANNEL ZERO on YouTube to catch Meeks' convo with C-Doc, Jennifer ‘O' Jenny and ULTRAMAG7, and hit that subscribe button as well while you're at it! Time after time #YOUWAAAAALCOME for this #SMITHSONIANGRADE! // southernvangard.com // @southernvangard on all platforms #hiphop #rap #undergroundhiphop #boombap |:::::::::::::::::::::| Recorded live January 26, 2026 @ Dirty Blanket Studios, Marietta, GA southernvangard.com @southernvangard on all platforms #SmithsonianGrade #WeAreTheGard twitter/IG: @southernvangard @jondoeatl @cappuccinomeeks |:::::::::::::::::::::| Pre-Game Beats - 4ord “Southern Vangard Theme Song” - Bobby Homack & The Southern Vangard All-Stars Talk Break Inst. - “Chris Falo” - QThree “Balance” - Showrocka & Mickey Factz Feat. Cory Gunz “Sheepskins” - Mondo Slade & Minister Hyde (prod. King R.E.M) “Blamo!” - Ab Digi & Inkswel ft. Colonel Red “Soft Ones” - Recognize Ali & D-Styles ft. SageInfinite “It's All Over” - Napoleon Da Legend “93 Chuck D” - Let The Dirt Say Amen Talk Break Inst. - “Prisoner” - QThree “Growing Pains” - Ghost Of The Machine “Hiphop” - Elcamino & ILL Tone Beats “PYXDIA” - Joe D “Good For You” - Roc Marciano “Pray 4 You” - Shottie “Midnight Train” - The Musalini & Don D ft. Silent Snipers Talk Break Inst. - “Reason” - QThree “SMD” - God Gotti “94 East” - Big Ghost Ltd ft. Mar, Isaac Castor, Dango Forlaine & Finale "Supreme Math” - Orlando Coolridge “Apache Wahrpath” - Shottie ft. Money Mogly “Waxy Gordon" - Eff Yoo & Rob Viktum ft. DJ Jon Doe “Vanity” - Roc Marciano “Out The Way” - God Gotti ft. All Hail Y.T. Talk Break Inst. - “Jimmy Gorecki" - QThree

Episode Notes This week on Live Like the World is Dying, we have another re-run episode. Margaret and Smokey talk about ways to go about mental first aid, how to alter responses to trauma for you self and as a community, different paths to resiliency, and why friendship and community are truly the best medicine. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript LLWD:Smokey on Mental First Aid Margaret 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast are what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret killjoy. And, this week or month...or let's just go with 'episode'. This episode is going to be all about mental health and mental health first aid and ways to take care of your mental health and ways to help your community and your friends take care of their mental health, and I think you'll like it. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:52 Okay, with me today is Smokey. Smokey, could you introduce yourself with your your name, your pronouns, and I guess a little bit about your background about mental health stuff? Smokey 02:04 Sure, I'm Smokey. I live and work in New York City. My pronouns are 'he' and 'him.' For 23 years, I've been working with people managing serious mental illness in an intentional community, I have a degree in psychology, I have taught psychology at the University level, I have been doing social work for a long time, but I've been an anarchist longer. Margaret 02:43 So so the reason I want to have you on is I want to talk about mental health first aid, or I don't know if that's the way it normally gets expressed, but that's the way I see it in my head. Like how are...I guess it's a big question, but I'm interested in exploring ways that we can, as bad things happen that we experience, like some of the best practices we can do in order to not have that cause lasting mental harm to us. Which is a big question. But maybe that's my first question anyway. Smokey 03:12 I mean, the, the truth is bad things will happen to us. It's part of living in the world, and if you are a person that is heavily engaged in the world, meaning, you know, you're involved in politics, or activism, or even just curious about the world, you will probably be exposed on a more regular basis to things that are bad, that can traumatize us. But even if you're not involved in any of those things, you're going to go through life and have really difficult things happen to you. Now, the good news is, that's always been the case for people. We've always done this. And the good news is, we actually know a lot about what goes into resilience. So, how do you bounce back quickly and hopefully thrive after these experiences? I think that is an area that's only now being really examined in depth. But, we have lots of stories and some research to show that actually when bad things happen to us, there is an approach that actually can help catalyst really impressive strength and move...change our life in a really positive direction. We also know that for most people, they have enough reserve of resiliency that....and they can draw upon other resiliency that they're not chronically affected by it, however, and I would argue how our society is kind of structured, we're seeing more and more people that are suffering from very serious chronic effects of, what you said, bad things happening, or what is often traumatic things but it's not just traumatic things that cause chronic problems for us. But, that is the most kind of common understanding so, so while most people with most events will not have a chronic problem, and you can actually really use those problems, those I'm sorry, those events, let's call them traumatic events, those traumatic events they'll really actually improve your thriving, improve your life and your relationship to others in the world. The fact is, currently, it's an ever growing number of people that are having chronic problems. And that's because of the system. Margaret 06:19 Yeah, there's this like, there was an essay a while ago about it, I don't remember it very well, but it's called "We Are Also Very Anxious," and it it was claiming that anxiety is one of the general affects of society today, because of kind of what you're talking about, about systems that set us up to be anxious all the time and handle things in... Smokey 06:42 I think what most people don't understand is, it is consciously, in the sense that it's not that necessarily it's the desire to have the end goal of people being anxious, and people being traumatized, but it is conscious in that we know this will be the collateral outcome of how we set up the systems. That I think is fairly unique and and really kind of pernicious. Margaret 07:17 What are some of the systems that are setting us up to be anxious or traumatized? Smokey 07:23 Well, I'm gonna reverse it a little bit, Margaret. I'm going to talk about what are the things we need to bounce back or have what has been called 'resilience,' and then you and I can explore how our different systems actually make us being able to access that much more difficult. Margaret 07:47 Okay. Oh, that makes sense. Smokey 07:49 The hallmark of resiliency, ironically, is that it's not individual. Margaret 07:57 Okay. Smokey 07:57 In fact, if you look at the research, there are very few, there's going to be a couple, there's gonna be three of them, but very few qualities of an individual psychology or makeup that is a high predictor of resiliency. Margaret 08:20 Okay. Smokey 08:21 And these three are kind of, kind of vague in the sense they're not, they're not terribly dramatic, in a sense. One is, people that tend to score higher on appreciation of humor, tends to be a moderate predictor of resiliency. Margaret 08:46 I like that one. Smokey 08:47 You don't have to be funny yourself. But you can appreciate humor. Seems to be a....and this is tends to be a cross cultural thing. It's pretty low. There are plenty of people that that score very low on that, that also have resiliency. That's the other thing, I'll say that these three personality traits are actually low predictors of resiliency. Margaret 09:13 Compared to the immunity ones that you're gonna talk about? Smokey 09:16 So one is appreciation of humor seems to be one. So, these are intrinsic things that, you know, maybe we got from our family, but but we hold them in ourselves, right? The second one is usually kind of put down as 'education.' And there tends to be a reverse bell curve. If you've had very, very low education, you tend to be more resilient. If you've had extreme professionalization, you know, being a doctor, being a lawyer, well, not even being a lawyer, because that's the only...but many, many years of schooling, PhD things like that, it's not what you study. There's something about... Smokey 10:10 Yeah, or that you didn't. They're almost equal predictors of who gets traumatized. And then the the last one is kind of a 'sense of self' in that it's not an ego strength as we kind of understand it, but it is an understanding of yourself. The people that take the surveys, that they score fairly high....So I give you a survey and say, "What do you think about Smokey on these different attributes?" You give me a survey and say, "Smokey, how would you rate yourself on these different attributes?" Margaret 10:11 It's that you studied. Margaret 10:32 Okay. Smokey 10:59 So, it's suggesting that I have some self-reflexivity about what my strengths and weaknesses are. I can only know that because they're married by these also. Margaret 11:11 Okay. So it's, it's not about you rating yourself high that makes you resilient, it's you rating yourself accurately tohow other people see you. Smokey 11:18 And again, I want to stress that these are fairly low predictors. Now, you'll read a million books, kind of pop like, or the, these other ones. But when you actually look at the research, it's not, you know, it's not that great. So those..however, the ones that are big are things like 'robustness of the social network.' So how many relations and then even more, if you go into depth, 'what are those relationships' and quantity does actually create a certain level of quality, interestingly, especially around things called 'micro-social interactions,' which are these interactions that we don't even think of as relationships, maybe with storepersons, how many of these we have, and then certain in depth, having that combined with a ring of kind of meaningful relationships. And meaningful meaning not necessarily who is most important to me, but how I share and, and share my emotions and my thoughts and things like that. So, there's a lot on that. That is probably the strongest predictor of resilience. Another big predictor of resilience is access to diversity in our social networks. So, having diverse individuals tend to give us more resiliency, and having 'time,' processing time, also gives us more...are high predictors of resiliency, the largest is a 'sense of belonging.' Margaret 13:14 Okay. Smokey 13:15 So that trauma...events that affect our sense of belonging, and this is why children who have very limited opportunities to feel a sense of belonging, which are almost always completely limited, especially for very young children to the family, if that is cut off due to the trauma, or it's already dysfunctional and has nothing to do with the trauma, that sense of belonging, that lack of sense of belonging makes it very difficult to maintain resilience. So. So those are the things that, in a nutshell, we're going to be talking about later about 'How do we improve these?' and 'How do we maximize?' And 'How do we leverage these for Mental Health First Aid?' We can see how things like the internet, social media, capitalism, you know, kind of nation state building, especially as we understand it today, all these kinds of things errode a lot of those things that we would want to see in building resilient people. Margaret 14:28 Right. Smokey 14:28 And, you know, making it more difficult to access those things that we would need. Margaret 14:34 No, that's...this...Okay, yeah, that makes it obvious that the answer to my question of "What are the systems that deny us resiliency?" are just all of this. Yeah, because we're like....most people don't have...there's that really depressing statistic or the series of statistics about the number of friends that adults have in our society, and how it keeps going down every couple of decades. Like, adults just have fewer and fewer friends. And that... Smokey 15:00 The number, the number is the same for children, though too. Margaret 15:05 Is also going down, is what you're saying? Smokey 15:07 Yes. They have more than adults. But compared to earlier times, they have less. So, the trend is not as steep as a trendline. But, but it is still going down. And more importantly, there was a big change with children at one point, and I'm not sure when it historically happened. But, the number of people they interacted with, was much more diverse around age. Margaret 15:39 Oh, interesting. Smokey 15:40 So they had access to more diversity. Margaret 15:43 Yeah, yeah. When you talk about access to diversity, I assume that's diversity in like a lot of different axis, right? I assume that's diversity around like people's like cultural backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, age. Like, but even like... Smokey 15:56 Modes of thought. Margaret 15:58 Yeah, well, that's is my guess, is that if you're around more people, you have more of an understanding that like, reality is complicated, and like different people see things in different ways. And so therefore, you have a maybe a less rigid idea of what should happen. So, then if something happens outside of that, you're more able to cope, or is this...does... like, because I look at each of these things and I can say why I assume they affect resiliency, but obviously, that's not what you're presenting, you're not presenting how they affect resiliency, merely that they seem to? Smokey 16:34 Yeah, and I don't know, if we know exactly how they affect, and we don't know how they...the effect of them together, you know, social sciences, still pretty primitive. So they, they need to look at single variables, often. But you know, we know with chemistry and biology and ecology, which I think are a little more sophisticated...and physics, which is more sophisticated. The real interesting stuff is in the combinations. Margaret 17:09 Yeah. Okay. Smokey 17:10 So what happens when you have, you know, diversity, but also this diverse and robust social network? Is that really an addition? Or is that a multiplication moment? For resiliency. Margaret 17:23 Right. And then how does that affect like, if that comes at the expense of...well, it probably wouldn't, but if it came at the expense of processing time or something. Smokey 17:33 Exactly. Margaret 17:35 Or, like, you know, okay, I could see how it would balance with education in that, like, I think for a lot of people the access to diversity that they encounter first is like going off to college, right, like meeting people from like, different parts of the world, or whatever. Smokey 17:49 I forgot to mention one other one, but it is, 'meaning.' Meaning is very important. People that score high, or report, meaning deep, kind of core meaning also tend to have higher resiliency. That being said, they...and don't, don't ever confuse resiliency with like, happiness or contentment. It just means that the dysfunction or how far you're knocked off track due to trauma, and we're, we're using trauma in the larger sense of the word, you know, how long it takes you to get back on track, or whether you can even get back on track to where you were prior to the event is what we're talking about. So it's not, this is not a guide to happiness or living a fulfilled life. It's just a guide to avoid the damage. Margaret 19:01 But if we made one that was a specifically a 'How to have a happy life,' I feel like we could sell it and then have a lot of money.Have you considered that? [lauging] Smokey 19:11 Well one could argue whether that's even desirable to have a happy life. That's a whole philosophical thing. That's well beyond my paygrade Margaret 19:22 Yeah, every now and then I have this moment, where I realized I'm in this very melancholy mood, and I'm getting kind of kind of happy about it. And I'm like, "Oh, I'm pretty comfortable with this. This is a nice spot for me." I mean, I also like happiness, too, but you know. Okay, so, this certainly implies that the, the way forward for anyone who's attempting to build resiliency, the sort of holistic solution is building community. Like in terms of as bad stuff happens. Is that... Smokey 19:58 Community that's...and community not being just groups. Okay, so you can, I think, you know, the Internet has become an expert at creating groups. There lots of groups. But community, or communitas or the sense of belonging is more than just a shared interest and a shared knowledge that there's other like-minded people. You'll hear the internet was great for like minded people to get together. But, the early internet was really about people that were sharing and creating meaning together. And I think that was very powerful. That, you know, that seems harder to access on today's Internet, and certainly the large social media platforms are consciously designed to achieve certain modes of experience, which do not lend themselves to that. Margaret 21:06 Right, because it's like the...I don't know the word for this. Smokey 21:10 It's Capitalism. Like, yeah, we're hiding the ball. The ball is Capitalism. Margaret 21:14 Yeah. Smokey 21:14 And how they decided to go with an advertising model as opposed to any other model, and that requires attention. Margaret 21:21 Yeah. Because it seems like when you talk about a robust social network, I mean, you know, theoretically, social network, like social networks, you know, Twitter calls itself a social network, right? And is there anything in the micro social interactions that one has online? Is there value in that? Or do you think that the overall...I mean, okay, because even like looking at... Smokey 21:46 I think there has to be value, I think, yeah, they did. I was reading just today, actually, about research, it was in England, with...this one hospital decided to send postcards to people who had been hospitalized for suicidal attempts. Margaret 22:09 Okay. Smokey 22:10 Most of them ended up in the mental health thing, some of them didn't, because they they left beyond, you know, against medical advice, or whatever. But, anyone that came in presenting with that a month, and then three months later, they sent another postcard just saying, "You know, we're all thinking about you, we're hoping you're all you're doing, alright. We have faith in you," that kind of thing like that, right. Nice postcard, purposely chosen to have a nice scene, sent it out. And they followed up, and they found a significant reduction in further attempts, rehospitalizations of these people, so that's a very, you know, there's no, it's a one way communication, it's not person-to-person, and it had some impact on I would guess one could argue the resiliency of those people from giving into suicidal ideation. Right. Margaret 23:13 Yeah. Smokey 23:14 So I think this is to say that, you know, we'd be...unplugging the internet, you know, that kind of Luddite approach doesn't make sense. There is a value to answer your question to the the internet's micro social interactions. It's just we...it's complicated, because you can't just have micro-social interactions unfortunately, but you need them. Margaret 23:44 Yeah. No, that that's really interesting to me, because yeah, so there's, there is a lot of value that is coming from these things, but then the overall effect is this like, like, for example, even like access to diversity, right? In a lot of ways, theoretically, the Internet gives you access to like everything. But then, instead, it's really designed to create echo chambers in the way that the algorithms and stuff feed people information. And echo chambers of thought is the opposite of diversity, even if the echo chamber of thought is like about diversity. Smokey 24:16 Yeah, I mean, it's set up again, almost as if it were to kind of naturally organically grow, we would probably have just as chaotic and and people would still just be as angry at the Internet, but it probably would develop more resilience in people. Because it wouldn't be stunted by this need to attract attention. The easiest way to do that is through outrage. Easiest way to do that is quickly and fast, so it takes care of your processing time. And relative anonymity is the coin of these kinds of things, you know, that's why bots and things like that, you know, they're not even humans, right? You know, they're just...so all these kinds of things stunt and deform, what could potentially be useful, not a silver bullet, and certainly not necessary to develop resiliency, strong resiliency. You don't need the internet to do that. And there are certain...using the internet, you know, there's going to be certain serious limitations because of the design, how it's designed. Margaret 25:42 Okay, well, so hear me out. If the internet really started coming in latter half of the 20th century, that kind of lines up to when cloaks went out of style.... Smokey 25:54 Absolutely, that's our big problem. And they haven't done any research on cloak and resiliency. Margaret 26:00 I feel that everyone who wears a cloak either has a sense of belonging, or a distinct lack of a sense of belonging. Probably start off with a lack of sense of belonging, but you end up with a sense of belonging So, okay, okay. Smokey 26:15 So I want to say that there's two things that people confuse and a very important. One, is how to prevent chronic effects from traumatic experiences. And then one is how to take care of, if you already have or you you develop a chronic effect of traumatic experiences. Nothing in the psychology literature, sociology literature, anthropology literature, obviously, keeps you from having traumatic experiences. Margaret 26:52 Right. Smokey 26:54 So one is how to prevent it from becoming chronic, and one is how to deal with chronic and they're not the same, they're quite, quite different. So you know, if you already have a chronic traumatic response of some sort, post traumatic stress syndrome, or any of the other related phenomena, you will approach that quite differently than building resilience, which doesn't protect you from having trauma, a traumatic experience. It just allows you to frame it, understand it, maybe if you're lucky, thrive and grow from it. But at worst, get you back on track in not having any chronic problems. Margaret 27:48 Okay, so it seems like there's three things, there's the holistic, building a stronger base of having a community, being more resilient in general. And then there's the like direct first aid to crisis and trauma, and then there's the long term care for the impacts of trauma. Okay, so if so, we've talked a bit about the holistic part of it, you want to talk about the the crisis, the thing to do in the immediate sense as it's happening or whatever? Smokey 28:15 For yourself or for somebody else? Margaret 28:18 Let's start with self. Smokey 28:20 So, self is go out and connect to your social network as much as you can, which is the opposite of what your mind and body is telling you. And that's why I think so much of the quote unquote, "self-care" movement is so wrong. You kind of retreat from your social network, things are too intense, I'm going to retreat from your social network. The research suggests that's the opposite of what you should be doing, you should connect. Now, if you find yourself in an unenviable situation where you don't have a social network, then you need to connect to professionals, because they, they can kind of fill in for that social Network. Therapists, social workers, peer groups, support groups, things like that they can kind of fill in for that. The problem is you don't have that sense of belonging. Well, with support groups, you might. You see this often in AA groups or other support groups. You don't really get that in therapy or or group therapy so much. But that is the first thing and so connect to your group. Obviously on the other side, if you're trying to help your community, your group, you need to actively engage that person who has been traumatized. Margaret 29:33 Yeah, okay. Smokey 29:35 And it's going to be hard. And you need to keep engaging them and engaging them in what? Not distractions: Let's go to a movie, get some ice cream, let's have a good time. And not going into the details of the traumatic experience so much as reconnecting them to the belonging, our friendship, if that. Our political movement, if that. Our religious movement, if that. Whatever that...whatever brought you two together. And that could be you being the community in this person, or could be you as Margaret in this person connecting on that, doubling down on that, and often I see people do things like, "Okay, let's do some self care, or let's, let's do the opposite of whatever the traumatic experience was," if it came from, say oppression, either vicarious or direct through political involvement let's, let's really connect on a non-political kind of way. Margaret 31:19 Ah I see! Smokey 31:21 And I'm saying, "No, you should double down on the politics," reminding them of right what you're doing. Not the trauma necessarily not like, "Oh, remember when you got beaten up, or your, your significant other got arrested or got killed by the police," but it's connecting to meaning, and bringing the community together. Showing the resiliency of the community will vicariously and contagiously affect the individual. And again, doesn't have to be political could be anything. Margaret 32:01 Yeah. Is that? How does that that feels a little bit like the sort of 'get right back on the horse kind of thing.' But then like, in terms of like, socially, rather than, because we 'get back on the horse,' might mean might imply, "Oh, you got beat up at a riot. So go out to the next riot." And that's what you're saying instead is so "Involve you in the fundraising drive for the people who are dealing with this including you," or like... Smokey 32:28 And allowing an expectation that the individual who's been traumatized, might be having a crisis of meaning. And allowing that conversation, to flow and helping that person reconnect to what they found meaningful to start with. So getting right back on the horse again, it's reminding them why they love horses. Margaret 33:02 Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Okay, I have another question about the the crisis first aid thing, because there's something that, you know, something that you talked to me about a long time ago, when I was working on a lot of like reframing. I was working on coping with trauma. And so maybe this actually relates instead to long term care for trauma. And I, I thought of this as a crisis first aid kind of thing, is I'll use a like, low key example. When I was building my cabin, I'm slightly afraid of heights, not terribly, but slightly. And so I'm on a ladder in the middle of nowhere with no one around and I'm like climbing up the ladder, and I'm nailing in boards. And I found myself saying, "Oh, well, I only have three more boards. And then I'm done. I can get off the ladder. "And then I was like, "No, what I need to do is say, it's actually fine, I am fine. And I can do this," rather than like counting down until I can get off the ladder. And so this is like a way that I've been working on trying to build resiliency, you can apply this to lots of things like if I'm on an airplane, and I'm afraid of flying or something I can, instead of being like, "Five more hours and then we're there. Four more hours and then we're there," instead of being like, "It's actually totally chill that I'm on an airplane. This is fine." And basically like telling myself that to reframe that. Is this....Am I off base with this? Is this tie into this, there's just a different framework? Smokey 34:27 That is what the individual should be trying to do is connect the three different things, keeping it simple. One, is to the community which gives them nourishment. On a plane or on your roof, that's not going to happen. Margaret 34:44 Yeah. Smokey 34:45 Though, actually, to be honest. If you're nervous and you have...go back to your roof example, which I think is a pretty good one. Let's say that you had more than three boards. Let's say it was gonna take you a couple hours to do that. But it's something you're nervous about, connecting to somebody in your social network, whether you, you have your earphones on, and you're just talking to them before or during...after doesn't help. That does one way. Or the other is connecting to what you were doing, which is connecting to kind of reframing or your own internal resilience. I've done something similar like this before. This is not something that is going to need to throw me, it is what's called pocketing the anxiety. Margaret 35:45 Okay. Smokey 35:45 Where you're other-izing it, being like, it's coming from you too, right? being like, "Hey, you could fall. This plane could go down," right? That that's still you, you're generating that. You're not hearing that over to, and you're saying, "Okay, but I'm going to try, you know, give primacy to this other voice in my head. That is saying, "You've got this, it's all right, you've done things like this before."" So that's the second thing. And that's what you were doing. So you could connect to your community, you could connect to kind of a reserve of resiliency. And to do that is allow that one to be pocketed. But be like, "Hey, I want to hear from what this core thing has to say. I want to hear from what the positive person on the front row has to say." You're not arguing with that one. You're just listening. You're changing your, your, what you're attuned to. And then the third one is, if you can, you connect to the meaning. What is the meaning of building the house for you? Where are you going on your flight? And why is it important? Margaret 37:03 Yeah. Okay, Smokey 37:05 And that anxiety and the fact that you're doing it, you want to give again, the primacy to the importance, that "Yeah, I'm really nervous, I'm really freaked out about this, but this thing is so important, or so good for me, or so healthy for me to do this. This must mean it's going to be really important. And I'm connecting to why it's important and focusing on that. So those are the three things that the individual can do. The helping person or community is engagement. The second one is the same, reconnecting to the meaning. Why did you love horses in the first place? Okay, don't have to get back on the horse. But let's not forget horses are awesome. Margaret 37:58 Yeah. Smokey 37:58 And Horseback riding is awesome. Margaret 38:01 Yeah. Smokey 38:01 And you were really good at it before you got thrown. But you know, you don't have to do it now, but let's, let's just let's just share our love of horses for a moment and see how that makes you feel. And then the third one is that kind of drawing upon, instead of drawing upon the individual resilience, which you were doing, like, "Hey, I got this," or the plane, you know, you were, you're hearing from other people, you're drawing upon their individual resilience. "Smokey, tell me about the time you did this thing that was hard." And I tell ya, you're like, "Well, Smokey can fucking do that I can do it. You don't even think...it doesn't even work necessarily consciously. Margaret 38:50 Right. Smokey 38:51 So you could see that what you're doing individually, the helper or the community is doing complementary. Margaret 38:59 Yeah. Smokey 39:00 And now you can see why a lot of self care narrative, a lot of taking a break a lot of burnout narrative, all these things, at best aren't going to help you and at worst, in my opinion, are kind of counterproductive. Margaret 39:17 Well, and that's the, to go to the, you know, working on my roof thing I think about...because I've had some success with this. I've had some success where I....there's certain fears that I have, like, suppressed or something like I've stopped being as afraid of...the fear is no longer a deciding factor in my decision making, because of this kind of reframing this kind of like, yeah, pocketing like...And it's probably always useful to have the like, I don't want to reframe so completely that I just walk around on a roof all the time, without paying attention to what I'm doing, right?Because people do that and then they fall and the reason that there's a reason that roofing is one of the most dangerous jobs in America. So a, I don't know I yeah, I, I appreciate that, that you can do that. And then if it's a thing you're going to keep doing anyway, it becomes easier if you start handling it like, carefully, you know? Smokey 40:17 Well, you don't want to give it too much. So why do we? Why is it natural for us to take anxiety or fear and focus on it? It's somewhat evolutionary, right? It's a threat, right? It's supposed to draw your attention, right? It's supposed to draw your attention. And if you're not careful, it will draw your attention away from other things that are quieter that like that resiliency in the front row you need to call on, because they're not as flashy, right? So I don't think you have to worry about threat....You're right. You don't want to get to the point where you and that's why I say 'pocket it,' as opposed to 'deny it, suppress it, argue with it. demolish it.' I think it's good to have that little, "Beep, beep, beep there's a threat," and then being like, "Okay, but I want to continue to do this. Let's hear from resiliency in the front row. What? What do you have to tell me too?" You have to not...what happens is we go into the weeds of the threat. Oh, so what? "Oh, I fall off and I compound fracture, and I'm way out here in the woods, and no one's going to get me. My phone isn't charged." That's not what the original beep was. Original beep like, "You're high up on a ladder, seems unstable. This seems sketchy," right? Okay. Got that. And then resilience is, "Yeah, you've done lots of sketchy stuff. You've written in the back of a pickup truck. That's sketchy, so seatbelt there, nothing, you know, let me remind you that that you can overcome." And, but by going into the anxiety, going into the fear, you're forcing yourself to justify the thing. And then it becomes more and more elaborate, and it gets crazier and crazier very quickly. You know, all of sudden, you're bleeding out and you're cutting your leg off with a pen knife. It's like, "Wow, how did all this happen?" Margaret 42:38 Yeah, well, and that's actually something that comes up a lot in terms of people interacting with the show and about like preparedness in general. Because in my mind, the point of paying attention to how to deal with forest fire while I live in the woods, is not to then spend all of my time fantasizing and worrying about forest fire. But instead, to compare it to this ladder, if I get this "Beep, beep, the ladder is unstable." I climb down, I stabilize the ladder as best as I can. And then I climb back up and I do the thing. And then when I think about like, with fire, I'm like, "Okay, I have done the work to minimize the risk of fire. And so now I can stop thinking about it." Like, I can listen to the little beep, beep noise and do the thing. And now I can ignore the beep beep because just like literally, when you're backing up a truck and it goes beep, beep, you're like, yeah, no, I know, I'm backing up. Thanks. You know, like, Smokey 43:35 Yeah, it's good to know, it's good to know, you're not going forward. Margaret 43:39 Yeah, no. No, okay. That's interesting. And then the other thing that's really interesting about this, the thing that you're presenting, is it means that in some ways, work that we present as very individual in our society, even in radical society, is actually community based on this idea, like so conquering phobias is something that we help one another do, it seems like, Smokey 44:02 Absolutely. I mean, the best stuff on all this stuff is that people reverse engineering it to make people do dangerous, bad things. The military. Margaret 44:18 Yeah, they're probably pretty good at getting people to conquer phobias. Yep. Smokey 44:21 They have a great sense of belonging. They have a great sense of pulling in internal resilient, group resilient, connecting to meaning even when it's absolutely meaningless what you're doing. It's all the dark side of what we're talking about, but it's quite effective and it literally wins wars. Margaret 44:47 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you have this whole... Smokey 44:50 Literally it changes history. And so, the good news is, we can kind of reclaim that for what I think it was originally purposed to do, which is to protect us from the traumas that we had to go through in our evolutionary existence. So we couldn't afford to have a whole bunch of us chronically disabled. Meaning unable to function, you know, they've just taken it and, and bent it a little bit, and learned very deeply about it, how to how to use it for the things that really cause, you know, physical death and injury. And, and, you know, obviously, they're not perfect, you have a lot of trauma, but not, not as much as you would expect for what they do. And every year they get better and better. Margaret 45:51 Hooray. Smokey 45:53 We have to get on top of our game. Margaret 45:56 Yeah. Smokey 45:57 And get people not to do what they do. I'm not suggesting reading...well maybe reading military, but not...you can't use those tools to make people truly free and resilient. Margaret 46:17 Yeah. Smokey 46:18 In the healthy kind of way. Yeah. Margaret 46:22 Okay, so in our three things, there's the holistic, prepared resiliency thing, then there's the immediate, the bad thing is happening first aid. Should we talk about what to do when the thing has, when you have the like, the injury, the mental injury of the trauma? Smokey 46:42 Like with most injuries, it's rehab, right? Margaret 46:45 Yeah. No, no, you just keep doing the thing, and then hope it fixes itself. [laughs] Smokey 46:53 My approach to most medical oddities that happen as I get older, it's like, "It'll fix itself, this tooth will grow back, right? The pain will go away, right?" Yeah, just like physical rehab, it does require two important aspects for all physical, what we think of when someone says I have to go to rehab, physical rehab, not not alcohol rehab, or psych rehab, is that there's two things that are happening. One, is a understanding, a deep understanding of the injury, often not by the person, but by the physical therapist. Right? That if they know, okay, this is torn meniscus, or this is this and I, okay, so I understand the anatomy, I understand the surgery that happened. Okay. And then the second is, short term, not lifelong therapy, not lifelong this or that. Short term techniques to usually strengthen muscles and other joints and things around the injury. Okay. And that's what, what I would call good recovery after you already have the injury. It's not after you've had the traumatic experience, because traumatic experience doesn't necessarily cause a chronic injury, and we're trying to reduce the number of chronic injuries, but chronic injuries are going to happen. chronic injuries already exist today. A lot of the people we know are walking around with chronic injuries that are impacting their ability to do what they want to do and what in my opinion, we need them to do, because there's so much change that needs to happen. We need everybody as much as possible to be working at their ability. So wherever we can fix injury, we should. So so one is where do I get an understanding of how this injury impacts my life? And I think different cognitive psychology, I think CBT, DBT, these things are very, very good in general. Margaret 49:22 I know what those are, but can you explain. Smokey 49:22 Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. These all come out of cognitive psychology from the 50s. Our techniques, but most therapists use versions of this anyway. So just going to therapy, what it is doing initially, is trying to, like the physical therapist, tell you, "This is the injury you have. This is why it's causing you to limp, or why you have weakness in your arm and wrist. And what we're going to do is we're going to give you some techniques to build up, usually the muscles, or whatever else needs to be built up around it so that you will be able to get more use out of your hand." And that is what we need to do with people that have this chronic injury. So, one, is you need to find out how the injury is impacting. So, I'm drinking more, I'm getting angry more, or I'm having trouble making relationships, or I'm having, and there's a series of, you know, 50 year old techniques to really kind of get down and see, okay, this injury is causing these things, that's how it's impacting me, and I don't want to drink more, or I want to be able to sleep better, or I want to be able to focus, or I want to be able to have meaningful relationship with my partner or my children or whatever, whatever that is, right? And then there are techniques, and they're developing new techniques, all the time, there's like EMDR, which is an eye thing that I don't fully understand. There DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy, has a lot of techniques that you kind of practice in groups. As you know, we have mutual aid cell therapy, MAST, which is also a group where you're sharing techniques to build up these different things and resilience. So, community, and meaning, and all those...reframing all those kinds of things. So, but they shouldn't, despite the length of the injury, how long you've been injured, how long you've been limping, and how much it's affected other parts of your psychic body in a way. These are things that still should be able to be remediated relatively quickly. Smokey 49:31 That's exciting. Yeah. Smokey 50:10 But this is not a lifelong thing. Now, that doesn't mean, if you're traumatized as a child for example, it's sort of like if you've completely shattered your wrist bone, and they've put in pins and things like that, that wrist, may never have the flexibility, it did, the actual wrist bone, you know, the bones in the wrist. But by building muscles, and other things around it, you could then theoretically have full flexibility that you had before, right? But it's not the actual wrist bone, but that that injury is still there. You've built up...Sometimes it's called strength-based approach or model where you're building up other strengths, you have to relieve the impact that that injury, so like, a common thing with with trauma is trust. My trust is very damaged. My ability to trust others, or trust certain environments, or maybe trust myself, right, is completely damaged. So if, if my...and that may never fully heal, that's like my shattered wrist bone. So then, by building up, let's say, I don't trust myself, I did something, really fucked up myself, you know, psychologically, traumatically, but by building up trust in others, and then in the environment, or other things, that can mediate that damage or vice versa. Margaret 53:53 You mean vice versa, like if you? Smokey 53:59 Like, if my problem is a trust of others, or trust with strangers, or trust with friends, you know, I've been betrayed in a really traumatic way by my mother, or my father or uncle or something like that then, you know, building up my friendships to a really strong degree will reduce and eventually eliminate, hopefully erase the impact of that injury on the rest of my life. I'm not doomed to have dysfunctional relationships, lack of sleep, alcoholism or whatever are the symptoms of that traumatic event, that chronic traumatic event. Margaret 54:54 Okay, so my next question is, and it's sort of a leading question, you mentioned MAST earlier and I kind of want to ask, like, do we need specialists for all of this? Do we have people who both generalize and specialize in this kind of thing? Are there ways that, you know, we as a community can, like, get better at most of this stuff while then some of it like, you know, obviously people specialize in and this remains useful? Like... Smokey 55:22 You need. I wouldn't say...You need, you do need specialists, not for their knowledge, per se so much as they're there for people that the injury has gone on so long that the resiliency, all those other things, they don't have a social network, they haven't had time, because the damage happened so early to build up those reserves, that that person in the front row, the front row, the seats are empty. That is, it's really great we live...Now, in other cultures, the specialists were probably shamans, religious people, mentors, things like that, that said, "Okay, my role is to," all therapy is self therapy. That was Carl Rogers, he was quite correct about that. The specialist you're talking about are the kind of stand in for people who don't have people to do that. I would argue all real therapy is probably community therapy. It's relational. So if you have friends, if you have community, if you have a place, or places you find belonging, then theoretically, no, I don't think you need....I think those groups, and I think most specialists would agree to actually, those groups, if they're doing this can actually do a much better job for that individual. They know that individual and there's a natural affinity. And there there are other non specifically therapeutic benefits for engaging in re engaging in these things that have nothing to do with the injury that are just healthy, and good to you. So sort of like taking Ensure, Ensure will keep you alive when you're you've had some surgery, you've had some really bad injury, or if you need saline solution, right? But we're not suggesting people walk around with saline bags. There are better ways to get that, more natural ways to get that. I'm not talking alternative, psychiatric or, you know, take herbs instead of psychiatric medication. But there are better ways to do that. And I think, but I'm glad we have saline. Margaret 58:08 Yeah, Smokey 58:08 I think it saves a lot of people's lives. But, we would never give up the other ways to get nutrients because of other benefits to it. You know, sharing a meal with people is also a really good thing. Margaret 58:21 And then even like from a, you know, the advantages of community, etc. I'm guessing it's not something that's like magically imbued in community. It's like can be something that communities need to actually learn these skills and develop like, I mean, there's a reason that well, you know, I guess I'm reasonably open about this. I used to have like fairly paralyzing panic attacks, and then it started generalizing. And then, you know, a very good cognitive behavioral therapist gave me the tools with which to start addressing that. And that wasn't something I was getting from....I didn't get it from my community in the end, but I got it from a specific person in the community, rather than like, everyone already knows this or something. Smokey 59:03 Well, I think what we're doing right here is, is....I mean, people don't know. So they read....People were trying to help you from your community. Undoubtedly, with the right. intentions, and the right motives, but without the information on what actually works. Margaret 59:27 Yep. Smokey 59:28 And that's all that was happening there. Margaret 59:30 Yeah, totally. Smokey 59:31 So, it's really, you know, as cliche as it sound. It's really about just giving people some basic tools that we already had at one time. Margaret 59:44 Yeah. Smokey 59:45 Forgot, became specialized. So you know, I'm throwing around CBT, DBT, EMDR. None of that people can keep in their head. They will....The audience listening today are not going to remember all those things. And nor do they have to. But they have to know that, you know, reconnecting to the horse, but not telling people to get back on the horse, that kind of tough love kind of thing isn't going to work, but neither is the self care, take a bubble bath... Margaret 1:00:19 Never see a horse again, run from a horse. Smokey 1:00:21 Never see a horse, again, we're not even going to talk about horses, let's go do something else, isn't going to work either. And I think once we...you know, it's not brain science...Though it is. [laughs] It is pretty, you know, these are, and you look at how religions do this, you know, you look at how the military does this, you look at how like, fascists do this, you know, all sorts of groups, communities can do this fairly effectively. And it doesn't cost money. It's not expensive. You don't have to be highly educated or read all the science to be able to do that. And people naturally try, but I think a lot of the self help kind of gets in the way. And some people think they know. "Okay, well, this is what needs to happen, because I saw on Oprah." That kind of thing. " Margaret 1:01:26 Yeah, Well, I mean, actually, that's one of the main takeaways that's coming from me is I've been, I've been thinking a lot about my own mental health first aid on a fairly individual basis, right? You know, even though it was community, that helped me find the means by which to pull myself out of a very bad mental space in that I was in for a lot of years. But I still, in the end was kind of viewing it as, like, "Ah, someone else gave me the tools. And now it's on me." It's like this individual responsibility to take care of myself. And, and so that's like, one of the things that I'm taking as a takeaway from this is learning to be inter-reliant. Smokey 1:02:06 There isn't enough research on it, again, because of our individualistic nature, and probably because of variables. But there's certainly tons of anecdotal evidence, and having done this for a long time talking to people and how the place I work is particularly set up, helping others is a really great way to help yourself. Margaret 1:02:30 Yeah. Smokey 1:02:31 it really works. It's very, I mean, obviously, in the Greeks, you know, you have the 'wounded healer,' kind of concept. Many indigenous traditions have said this much better than the Western. And I believe they have...and they needed to, but they had a much better kind of understanding of these things that we're we're talking about. You know, it. So, where people can...and I've heard this podcast, your podcast too, talking about this ability to be, you know, have self efficacy. But it's more than self efficacy. It's really helping others. Margaret 1:03:22 Yeah. Smokey 1:03:23 And that, that is really powerful. And there's not enough research on that. And I think that's why support groups, I think that's why, you know, AA, despite all its problems, has spread all over the world and has been around for, you know, 75 years, and is not going to go away anytime soon. Despite some obvious problems, is there's that there's that... they hit upon that they they re discovered something that we always kind of knew. Margaret 1:03:59 Yeah. Okay, well, we're coming out of time. We're running out of time. Are there any last thoughts, things that I should have asked you? I mean, there's a ton we can talk about this, and I'll probably try and have you on to talk about more specifics in the near future. But, is there anything anything I'm missing? Smokey 1:04:15 No, I think I think just re emphasizing the end piece that you know, for people that have resources, communities, meaning, social network, you know, that is worth investing your time and your energy into because that's going to build your...if you want to get psychologically strong, that is the easiest and the best investment, Put down the self help book. Call your friend. You know, don't search Google for the symptoms of this, that, or the other thing. Connect to what's important to you. And then lastly, try to help others or help the world in some way. And those are going to be profound and effective ways to build long lasting resilience as an individual. As a community, we should design our communities around that. Margaret 1:05:35 Yeah. All right. Well, that seems like a good thing to end on. Do you have anything that you want to plug like, I don't know books about mutual aid self therapy or anything like that? Smokey 1:05:46 I want to plug community. That's all I want to plug. Margaret 1:05:50 Cool. All right. Well, it's nice talking to you, and I'll talk to you soon. Smokey 1:05:54 Yep. Margaret 1:06:00 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please tell people about it. Actually, I mean, honestly, if you enjoyed this episode, in particular, like think about it, and think about reaching out to people, and who needs to be reached out to and who you need to reach out to, and how to build stronger communities. But if you want to support this podcast, you can tell people about it. And you can tell the internet about it. And you can tell the algorithms about it. But, you can also tell people about it in person. And you can also support it by supporting the, by supporting Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness, which is the people who produce this podcast. It's an anarchist publishing collective that I'm part of, and you can support it on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And if you support at pretty much any level, you get access to some stuff, and if you support a $10 you'll get a zine in the mail. And if you support at $20, you'll get your name read at the end of episodes. Like for example, Hoss the dog, and Micahiah, and Chris, and Sam, and Kirk, Eleanor, Jennifer, Staro, Cat J, Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, Theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, and paparouna. And that's all, and we will talk to you soon, and I don't know, I hope you all are doing as well as you can. This podcast is powered by Pinecast. Try Pinecast for free, forever, no credit card required. If you decide to upgrade, use coupon code r-69f62d for 40% off for 4 months, and support Live Like the World is Dying.

Join Patreon For Free In 2026 This will always be my favourite interview no matter who I get the chance to speak with in the coming years. This is my chat with Franky De Smet Van Damme singer with Belgian metal gods Channel Zero and the story of a letter received by us both 21 years previously.     This Is Flashback Bollocks.

All Hallows Eve is upon us! Don your best costumes, grab that plastic jack o'lantern bucket and come paint the ntown red with us as we indulge in 2007's Trick 'r Treat. A tight 82-minutes of delicious anthological horror goodness, we unwrap the treats of Michael Doughterty's immediately established rules, intersecting stories, and how this is one movie that truly encapsulates the spirit of Halloween. So! Happy listening! Just be sure to check your candy, keep that costume on, don't touch those decorations and do NOT blow out that jack o'lantern before midnight!!!!TimestampsNegronomicon - 4:17Crit - 23:50Final Curls - 1:04:30Gems from Ep. 113Power Rangers Beast Morphers (2019, television series)Frankenstein (2025)Frankenstein (Mary Shelley, (Lackington, Hughes, Harding, Mavor & Jones, 1818, Print)Crimson Peak (2015)Pan's Labyrinth (2006)Paranorman (2012)The Thrifting (2025, short)The Shining (1980)Wildwood (2026)The Rescuers Down Under (1990)The Night Gardener (upcoming film)Kubo and the Two Strings (2016)Coraline (2009)Shrek 2 (2004)Trick'r Treat (2007)Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019)Krampus (2015)True Blood (2008, television series)Succession (2018, television series)Kyle XY (2006, television series)White Chicks (2004)Goosebumps (1995, television series)Are You Afraid of the Dark (1990, television series)Scary stories to Tell in the Dark (Alvin Schwartz, Scholastic, 1981, Print)Tales from the Darkside (1983, television series)The Twilight Zone (1959, television series)Creepshow (1982)Tales from the Crypt (1989, television series)XX (2017)The Thursday  Murder Club (2025)Channel Zero (2016, television series)The Mortuary Collection (2019)V/H/S/ (2012)Laura Hasn't Slept (2020)Smile (2022)Lights Out (2013, short)Lights Out (2016)Midsommar (2019)Halloweentown (1998)Leprechaun (1993)Leprechaun 2 (1994)Leprechaun 3 (1995)Leprechaun 4: In Space (1996)Leprechaun in the Hood (2000)Leprechaun Back 2 Tha Hood (2003)Leprechaun: Origins (2014)Leprechaun Returns (2018)The Blackening (2022)Drag Me to Hell (2009)James Bond (1962, film series)The Thing (1981)Luigi's Mansion (2001, video game)Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon (2013, video game)Luigi's Mansion 3 (2019, video game)Super Mario Sunshine (2002, video game)Little Nightmares III (2025, video game)The Sounds of Nightmares (2025, podcast)Reanimal (2026, video game)Support the show

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This week, Eric and Josh discuss: Hotspring Sharkattack, Saturday Night Sinema, falling asleep at a movie, leaving movies early, 30 Days Of Night, Cameo, Mayfair weddings, Bad Shabbos, Materialists, I Saw The TV Glow, Channel Zero, and more! They also discuss the movies screening the week of Friday July 18 - Thursday July 24: The Phoenician Scheme, The Room, To A Land Unknown, Videodrome, Band Of Outsiders, and Man Bites Dog! Check mayfairthetare.ca for more info on current and Coming Soon movies!

On this episode of The Best Thing We Watched This Week, Ruben and Chris talk about Mercy for None, Ginny & Georgia Season 3, Tornado, Channel Zero, and more. What's the best thing you watched this week?Chapters:00:00:00 Intro00:03:35 Movie plot explained poorly00:06:07 Ruben asks a question00:09:25 The Town and Ginny & Georgia S300:19:08 Mercy for None00:26:45 Munchies00:31:36 What we're looking forward to00:35:01 Channel Zero00:38:49 Tornado00:45:34 Wrapping up

Send us a textDrummer Seven Antonopoulos takes us on a powerful journey from his unconventional childhood on the road to touring the world with acts like Vanilla Ice, Opiate for the Masses, and Channel Zero, revealing how music literally saved his life during his darkest moments.• Growing up on the road with a professional poker-playing father exposed Seven to diverse music like Boz Scaggs' “Lido Shuffle”• Discovering Black Sabbath at age nine provided crucial emotional support during a time of hidden childhood trauma• Metal and hip-hop crossover music like Anthrax and Public Enemy's "Bring the Noise" influenced Seven's drumming style and career path• Stevie Nicks' "Edge of Seventeen" intervened during a moment of suicidal crisis after losing his friend and watching his mother's health decline• Psychedelic experiences with ayahuasca, soundtracked by Fever Ray's "If I Had a Heart," helped process decades of unresolved trauma• Returning to Texas following his divorce just before the pandemic lockdowns led to healing and self-reflection with Billie Eilish's “Everything I Wanted”Whether you're a music lover, drummer, or someone navigating your own challenging journey, Seven's story reminds us that our most meaningful connections to songs often come precisely when we need them most, not just as comfort but as guides to process our deepest pain and find our way forward.Follow Seven on YouTube and Instagram and check out Channel Zero WHO WE AREDAVID: Creator & Host @ALifeinSixSongsFacilitator & Educator | Music-Based Healing | Musician | Curiosity with Loving KindnessCAROLINA: Co-Host @ALifeinSixSongsStoryteller | Professional FacilitatorRAZA: Co-Host @ALifeinSixSongsLawyer | Producer | Solo Project: Solamente | @razaismynameRESOURCES & LINKSLiked songs from this life story? Check out A Life in Six Songs playlist on Apple Music and SpotifyFollow A Life in Six Songs on Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTubeAre you a veteran who is struggling? Call the Veterans Crisis Line: Dial 988, then press 1.Having thoughts of suicide? Get Help Here Support our work!Subscribe to our YouTube channel Don't keep us all to yourself! Share our podcast with your people!Reach out to us at alifeinsixsongspodcast@gmail.comSupport the showCopyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, commentary, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit or educational use tips the balance in favor of fair use. The original work played in this video has been significantly transformed for the purpose of commentary, criticism, and education.

IT DOESN'T GIVE UP!! It Follows Full Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects With Writer / Director David Robert Mitchell rolling camera on "They Follow," Roxy Striar & Aaron Alexander REUNITE to give their It Follows Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review!! Download PrizePicks today at https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/RE... & use code REJECTS to get $50 instantly when you play $5! Join Roxy Striar and Aaron Alexander as they dive into David Robert Mitchell's 2014 horror thriller It Follows, where a deadly supernatural curse transmitted through intimacy leaves Jay Height (Maika Monroe, celebrated for The Guest and Labor Day) running for her life from a relentless, shape-shifting ENTITY. Keir Gilchrist grounds the terror as Jay's loyal friend Paul Bolduan (lead in Netflix's Atypical and star of It's Kind of a Funny Story), while Olivia Luccardi shines as the pragmatic Yara Davis (You're Next, Channel Zero). Lili Sepe delivers a heartfelt turn as Kelly Height (debuted in the Tribeca-premiered Spork), Jake Weary ups the stakes as Jay's ex-boyfriend Hugh Redmond (Animal Kingdom, Oculus), and Daniel Zovatto intensifies the dread as neighbor Greg Hannigan (10 Cloverfield Lane, Don't Breathe). Roxy & Aaron break down every spine-chilling sequence—from the eerie hallway pursuits and sudden roadside sightings of The Entity, to the chilling final showdown at the school swimming pool. Can Jay and her friends thwart the mysterious, shape-shifting entity, or will they succumb to its cycle of meta-viral terror??? Follow Aaron On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therealaaronalexander/?hl=en Follow Roxy Striar YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@TheWhirlGirls Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/roxystriar/?hl=en Twitter:  https://twitter.com/roxystriar Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week we have another awesome cross pollination with Live Like the World is Dying, our comrades in the Channel Zero podcast network. This time we're talking tree crops. Many of the trees we talk about in this episode have had their own episode on Propaganda By the Seed, so if you want more info look back in this feed or check out these links. Be sure to follow Live Like the World is Dying on your favorite podcast app or whatever social media you use for more informative content for what feels like the end times. Cornelian Cherry (PBTS episode), Figs (PBTS episode), Paw Paws (PBTS episode), Hazelnuts (PBTS episode), Eating Acorns (PBTS episode), The way I collect and process Acorns (blog page), Mulberries (PBTS episode), Siberian Peashrub (PBTS episode), Pigeon Peas on Seeds and Their People, Northern Nuts and the genus Carya (PBTS episode), Chestnuts (PBTS episode), Mt. Joy Orchard - A free to pick public orchard in Portland, Maine - IG  // website, Rethinking Black Walnut Allelopathy on In Defence of Plants, Trees with Edible Leaves - free book , Trees with Edible Leaves PBTS episode, Grafting (PBTS episode) If you want to support this podcast, you can tell a friend to check it out, subscribe/rate/review on your favorite podcast platforms and/or join the Patreon. You can also submit questions or listener audio!

REACHER VS PAULIE + QUINN SHOWDOWN!!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Visit https://huel.com/rejects to get 15% off your order Start your online business with a $1 per-month trial when you visit https://www.shopify.com/rejects! Reacher Season 3 Finale Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review!! Join Greg Alba and John Humphrey as they dive into the explosive climax of Amazon Prime Video's Reacher Season 3. In this riveting finale, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, celebrated for his roles in Blue Mountain State and Titans) faces his most daunting challenge yet, as the threads of conspiracy and betrayal come together in a high-stakes showdown that redefines his relentless pursuit of justice. In this must-watch episode, Reacher teams up with stalwarts like DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, known for her standout work in Lodge 49 and Humans) and the unwavering Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, from Swamp Thing and Channel Zero). The tension soars as the mysterious Quinn (Brian Tee, recognized for his roles in The Wolverine and Jurassic World) and other key players push Reacher to his limits. Our hosts break down every electrifying moment—from adrenaline-pumping action sequences and heart-stopping confrontations to subtle clues that tie together the season's intricate narrative. Experience the finale's unforgettable twists and explosive set-pieces that have left fans clamoring for more. Whether you're a longtime follower or a newcomer to the series, this in-depth reaction and review offers the ultimate breakdown of a finale that cements Reacher Season 3 as one of the most thrilling chapters yet. Intense Suspense by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Follow Us On Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/  Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@reelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/reelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Music Used In Ad:  Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Happy Alley by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM:  FB:  https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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ONE EPISODE TO GO!!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Save & Invest In Your Future Today, visit: https://www.acorns.com/rejects Download the PrizePicks today at https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/RE... & use code REJECTS to get $50 instantly when you play $5! Grab a NEW Daredevil-inspired Hallway Hazard Tee at https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Reacher Episode 7 "L.A. Story" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review!! Join Greg Alba and John Humphrey as they dive into the explosive and action-packed Episode 7 of Amazon Prime Video's Reacher. In this high-stakes installment, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans, Fast X) & DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, known for her standout work in Lodge 49 and Humans) head to sunny Los Angeles to retrieve some information from shady Art Dealer Darien Prado (Greg Bryk, Saw V, A History of Violence). Meanwhile, Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, from Swamp Thing and Channel Zero) tracks down her would-be assassins, following their lead straight to the location of the Buy. All the while Quinn (Brian Tee, renowned for his roles in The Wolverine and Jurassic World) has been sent into a panic, liquidating his business & preparing to disappear. Zachary Beck (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone) & his son Richard (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds) share a touching moment as Zachary discovers the antique gun Richie bought for his Birthday... Greg 'n John break down every riveting moment—from the adrenaline-charged action sequences and heart-stopping confrontations to subtle clues that hint at Reacher's shadowy past. Episode 7 delivers jaw-dropping twists and an unforgettable climax that will have fans on the edge of their seats! Intense Suspense by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Follow Us On Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/  Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@reelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/reelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Music Used In Ad:  Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Happy Alley by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM:  FB:  https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

FACE TO FACE WITH QUINN!!! Reacher Full Series Watch Alongs: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects = THANKS TO HUEL! Visit https://huel.com/rejects to get 15% off your order Come See The Reel Rejects at WONDERCON! https://www.comic-con.org/wc/badges/ Reacher Season 3 Episode 6 "Smoke on the Water" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review!! Join Greg Alba and John Humphrey as they dive into the latest explosive chapter of Amazon Prime Video's Reacher Season 3, titled "Smoke on the Water." In this searing installment, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans, The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare,) finds himself face-to-face with the sinister & unpredictable Quinn (Brian Tee, The Wolverine, Jurassic World). In "Smoke on the Water," Reacher manages to gain the favor of Quinn (aka Julius McCabe) who, organization-compromised, begins a mad rush to alter every facet of his operation. This puts Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, Lodge 49, Humans) & Villanueva (Roberto Montesinos, Gridiron Gang, We Bought a Zoo) directly in harm's way as Richard Beck (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds) discovers their operation and is pulled into a harrowing roulette sequence opposite his father, Zachary Beck (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone). We also get one of the most BADASS sequences in the show as Quinn's Goons attempt to ambush Neagley (Maria Sten, Swamp Thing, Channel Zero) to bone-crunching & very satisfying ends... Gregory 'n Johnald break down every riveting moment—from a heart-stopping showdown set against swirling smoke and flames to subtle exchanges that peel back the layers of hidden motives. "Smoke on the Water" delivers a masterful blend of action, suspense, and emotional depth, setting the stage for an unforgettable climax to the season! Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell icon for more in-depth reactions and reviews! Intense Suspense by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Follow Us On Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/  Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@reelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/reelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Music Used In Ad:  Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Happy Alley by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM:  FB:  https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

THAT FREAKIN' ENDING!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Follow Us On Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/  Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thereelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/thereelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Save & Invest In Your Future Today, visit: https://www.acorns.com/rejects Reacher Season 3 Episode 3 "Number 2 With a Bullet" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review! Greg Alba and John Humphrey return for the breathtaking conclusion to the three-part premiere of Reacher Season 3! In this explosive finale, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans) plunges headfirst into the dangerous heart of Zachary Beck's (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone) treacherous empire—where every secret comes at a deadly price. With the stakes higher than ever, DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, Lodge 49, Humans) and the indefatigable Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, Swamp Thing, Channel Zero) race against time, unearthing pivotal intelligence that could shatter Beck's hold on power. As Reacher's relentless pursuit draws him into a ferocious clash, he finds himself face-to-face with the menacing enforcer Paulie (Olivier Richters, Black Widow, The King's Man), setting the stage for a showdown that promises to leave no one unscathed. And just when you think the tension can't climb any higher, the mysterious Quinn (Brian Tee, The Wolverine, Jurassic World) steps out of the shadows—forcing Reacher to confront echoes of a past he never thought he'd face, while Richard Beck (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds) wrestles with the crushing legacy of his family. This action-packed installment is a rollercoaster of explosive confrontations, gut-wrenching twists, and high-stakes drama that redefines Reacher's quest for justice. If this intensity is any indication, we're in for an unforgettable season! Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Music Used In Manscaped Ad:  Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM:  FB:  https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

THAT OPENING SCENE!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Follow Us On Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/  Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thereelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/thereelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Save & Invest In Your Future Today, visit: https://www.acorns.com/rejects Reacher Season 3 Episode 1 "Persuader" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review! Greg Alba and John Humphrey dive into the highly anticipated premiere of Reacher Season 3! In this electrifying opening episode, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans) goes undercover to rescue an informant from a formidable enemy tied to his past. The episode kicks off with a high-octane action sequence, setting the tone for a season filled with intense confrontations and deep-seated vendettas. Reacher's mission leads him into the dangerous world of Zachary Beck (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone), a businessman with a dark secret. Alongside Reacher is his trusted ally, Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, Swamp Thing, Channel Zero), and DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, Lodge 49, Humans), who bring their expertise to the perilous operation. The antagonist's muscle, Paulie (Olivier Richters, Black Widow, The King's Man), presents a daunting physical challenge, standing at an imposing 7'2". As Reacher delves deeper, he crosses paths with Quinn (Brian Tee, The Wolverine, Jurassic World), a former military officer with a shared history, and Richard Beck (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds), whose traumatic past intertwines with the unfolding events. This episode not only delivers adrenaline-pumping action but also sets the stage for exploring Reacher's complex past and the unfinished business that haunts him. For fans eager to delve into more of Jack Reacher's thrilling adventures, notable storylines include Killing Floor, Die Trying, Tripwire, Running Blind, and Echo Burning. Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Music Used In Manscaped Ad:  Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM:  FB:  https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

REACHER CRUSHES ANGEL DOLL!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Follow Us On Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/  Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thereelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/thereelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Save & Invest In Your Future Today, visit: https://www.acorns.com/rejects Reacher Season 3 Episode 2 "Truckin'" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review! Greg Alba and John Humphrey return for part 2 of the highly anticipated 3 episode premiere of Reacher Season 3! After the explosive events of the premiere, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans) continues his dangerous mission deep inside the world of Zachary Beck (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone), a businessman with far more secrets than he lets on. Behind the scenes, DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, Lodge 49, Humans) & Reacher's steadfast ride-or-die Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, Swamp Thing, Channel Zero) hunt for vital intelligence that could turn the tide of their operation. Reacher's presence in Beck's circle not only draws the attention of the towering enforcer, Paulie (Olivier Richters, Black Widow, The King's Man), but also brings us one step closer to the elusive Quinn (Brian Tee, The Wolverine, Jurassic World), a ghost from Reacher's past... All the while, Richard Beck (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds) struggles with the weight of his father's choices & finds an unexpected friend in Reacher. The episode once again features hard-hitting action, psychological warfare, and Reacher's unique pursuit of justice. With each revelation, the stakes grow higher, setting the stage for explosive confrontations in the episodes to come. If they keep this up, it could well become our favorite season so far!! And for any fans of the show eager to dive deeper into Jack Reacher's thrilling adventures, notable storylines include Killing Floor, Die Trying, Tripwire, Running Blind, and Echo Burning. Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Music Used In Manscaped Ad:  Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM:  FB:  https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In an excluding episode, The guys discuss the role latinos played in the election, P turns on Channel Zero, and the guys list songs that excludes most of our audience.

In an excluding episode, The guys discuss the role latinos played in the election, P turns on Channel Zero, and the guys list songs that excludes most of our audience.

Há muitos filmes de horror nos quais o mal é visível, identificável, explícito. Há alguns outros, no entanto, em que a ameaça vai muito lentamente tornando-se cada vez mais concreta e poderosa. É essa segunda descrição que melhor representa os filmes selecionados para este Embate. De um lado, O Hóspede traz um soldado desconhecido que chega na casa de uma família em luto afirmando trazer uma última mensagem de seu filho que faleceu em combate. De outro, O Convite retrata uma festa de jantar aparentemente inofensiva entre velhos amigos que vai aos poucos revelando-se cada vez mais macabra. Então, dê play neste RdMCast e prepare-se para tomar uma difícil decisão: o que você acharia menos pior: tomar o soro do experimento de super soldado que deu errado ou uma taça de vinho oferecida por membros de um culto sinistro? O RdMCast é produzido e apresentado por: Thiago Natário, Gabriel Braga e Gabi Larocca. Apoie o RdM e receba recompensas exclusivas: https://apoia.se/rdm CITADOS NO PROGRAMA: O Hóspede (2014) O Convite (2015) Citações off topic: Você é o Próximo (2011) Bruxa de Blair (2016) Godzilla e Kong: O Novo Império (2024) Observador (2022) O Presente (2015) Kingsman: Serviço Secreto (2014) Channel Zero (2016) Festim Diabólico (1948) EPISÓDIOS CITADOS: Cabana RdM #23 – Não Fale o Mal: o filme que vai te traumatizar Cabana RdM #26 – Watcher: o horror de ser observado RdMCast #344 – Heaven's Gate: alienígenas, discos voadores e cultos RdMCast #298 – Corrente do Mal (It Follows) RdMCast #464 – Especial Godzilla parte 2 ou: como os EUA estragam tudo RdMCast #275 – Franquia Alien RdMCast #429 – O Assassino e o horror em David Fincher RdMCast #386 – M3GAN, o novo fenômeno do horror RdMCast #249 – Especial Dia dos Namorados RdMCast #276 – Garota Infernal RdMCast #336 – Yellowjackets: vale tudo pela sobrevivência RdMCast #470 – Longlegs: Satanismo, bonecas e Nicolas Cage Siga o RdM Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Rep%C3%BAblicadoMedo Instagram: @republicadomedo Twitter: @Rdmcast Entre em contato através do: contato@republicadomedo.com.br PODCAST EDITADO POR Felipe Lourenço ESTÚDIO GRIM – Design para conteúdo digital Portfólio: https://estudiogrim.com.br/ Instagram: @estudiogrim Contato: contato@estudiogrim.com.br

Chris and Andy talk about some TV news, including the announcement of the ‘Beef' Season 2 cast (1:00) and the release of the trailer for the new Michael Schur show, ‘A Man on the Inside' (10:05). Then they discuss the first two episodes of ‘Special Ops: Lioness' Season 2 and whether the show is just "military porn" or something more interesting (14:11). Finally, in honor of Halloween week, they talk about some of their favorite terror TV shows, including ‘Teacup' and ‘Channel Zero,' and why horror TV is so hard to make (38:21). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yeah, boy!! Get some bass for your face this week with It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back, the sophomore album from hip-hop pioneers Public Enemy! James & Connor will learn about Chuck D and Flavor Flav's moving van freestyles, Hank Shocklee's Bomb Squad and their iconic wall of noise, and more as we tackle exactly one hour of music. We'll find out what's on Channel Zero (shewatchshewatch), refuse to believe the hype, and learn about everything from dactylic hexameter to Caspar Milquetoast. The Mixtaper informs us about the personal life of Terminator X and Flavor Flav's contributions to sports, politics, and hotel lobbies... You're gonna have to listen to this one, because this time around the podcast will not be televised.Keep Spinning at www.SpinItPod.com!Thanks for listening!0:00 Intro2:32 About Public Enemy13:14 About It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back22:32 Awards & Accolades23:16 Fact Or Spin24:53 Flavor Flav Was Named Ambassador To Flavortown29:21 The Band Gets Free Room Service In Hotels33:01 Flavor Flav Performed At The Olympics40:33 Terminator X Raises Johnny Cash Assassins46:37 Album Art47:18 Countdown To Armageddon49:59 Bring The Noise55:11 Don't Believe The Hype57:55 Cold Lampin' With Flavor1:00:44 Terminator X To The Edge Of Panic1:02:45 Mind Terrorist1:03:32 Louder Than A Bomb1:06:44 Caught, Can We Get A Witness?1:10:11 Show 'Em Whatcha Got1:12:55 She Watch Channel Zero?!1:16:07 Night Of The Living Baseheads1:17:27 Black Steel In The Hour Of Chaos1:21:15 Security Of The First World1:21:36 Rebel Without A Pause1:24:20 Prophets Of Rage1:25:19 Party For Your Right To Fight1:26:36 Final Spin Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Episode 35: Horror Mixtape Mash Up - Suzie & Billy D This episode was recorded on June 24, 2024 and posted on September 7, 2024. Content Warning: Light vulgarity. Introduction Welcome to No Bodies Episode 35 Introductions to your Ghosts Hosts with the Most - Suzie aka Projectile Varmint and surprise host Billy D. of Halloween Babies Today's Topic: Horror Mixtape Mash Up - Suzie's Version! The Mixtape Exchange - Suzie's Version (Where the Rules Don't Matter!) Methods for selecting our films & defining existential horror Suzie's original suggestions for Billy - that of course, he had already seen! Resolution (2012), Primer (2004), You'll Never Find Me (2023), The Coffee Table (2022), Possessor (2020), Upstream Color (2013), Time Crimes (2007), Triangle (2009), Predestination (2014), Exam (2009), Moon (2009), Cube (1997), District 9 (2009) Suzie's favorite existential horror tv shows  The Dark (2017), Channel Zero (2016), Silo (2023), Dark Matter (2024), Castle Rock (2018), The OA (2016), Altered Carbon (2018), The Killing (2011), The Sinner (2017), Twin Peaks (1990) Billy's tragic backstory Mixtape Reviews Billy D's Picks for Suzie Aniara (2018) Kotoko (2011) Santa Sangre (1989) Suzie's Picks for Billy D The Jacket (2005) Without Name (2016) I'm Thinking of Ending Things (2020) Suzie & Billy D's Watch Party The Vanishing (1988 Thank you to our guest!  Check out Billy D's solocast Halloween Babies. Keep Up with Your Hosts Check out our instagram antics and drop a follow @nobodieshorrorpodcast.  Projectile Varmint - keep up with Suzie's film musings on Instagram @projectile__varmint Lonely - read more from Lonely and keep up with her filmstagram chaos @lonelyhorrorclub on Instagram and www.lonelyhorrorclub.com. Surprise Mash Up Music by Billy D. and Bobby Donny!  Leave us a message at (617) 431-4322‬ and we just might answer you on the show!

Diana and JR are recording in a studio for the first time! They start with their signature icebreaker, "Fave Pot/Fave Not Pot," where Diana highlights the Purple Punch strain and Vegamour's vegan dry shampoo, while JR discusses Dr. Solomon's balm and the TV show "Channel Zero."The conversation shifts to the importance of making the cannabis industry more accessible to neurodivergent individuals. The hosts discuss practical measures like remote interviews and advanced scheduling to help neurodivergent employees thrive in a rapidly changing retail environment.Special guest Jahmila Edwards of Stash Queens joins to offer insights into the current challenges and changes in New York's cannabis market. Topics include the proliferation of illegal shops, the slow governmental response to new regulations, and the disparities in medical cannabis access in less affluent neighborhoods.(00:16) Fave Pot/Not Pot(08:53) Neurodiversity in the Cannabis Industry(22:18) Cannabis Industry Challenges and Changes(32:00) New York Cannabis Industry Priorities(40:46) Supporting Diversity in the Cannabis IndustryThis episode is sponsored by Spendr. Join over 50 dispensaries already using Spendr. Getting started is easy and takes just a few days, not months. No more fees, no more ATM lines–just rewards for buying their favorite products. This episode is produced and edited by Your Highness Media. Subscribe to our Substack for the latest updates and event information.

The Concert Crew takes on some of biggest current news topics. Hear the fellas discuss The Big 3 rap beefs, OJ, Diddy, Hall of Fame episode controversy, Kanye saying he invented every style of music of the past 20 years and much more. Also, the Concert Crew reviews new music from Big Boogie & DJ Drama, Reuben Vincent, Mozzy, Bryson Miller and Future & Metro Boomin... #ConcertCrew #Podcast #ChannelZero #TrendingTopics #HotTopics #TopStories #Drake #JCole #KendrickLamar #RickRoss #OJ #Diddy #MisterCee #MeekMill #KanyeWest #Pod #PodcastLife #Podcasting

We are joined by author David Renton to discuss the far right in Israel, we cover the Israeli government's links to the international far right, the influence of the Kahanist movement, how Israel's government has conducted the assault on Gaza and more. Support us on patreon: patreon.com/12rulesforwhat We are part of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts, check out other shows at channelzeronetwork.com

Editor - Greg O'Bryant MR. AND MRS. SMITH editor, Greg O'Bryant was not just joining the biggest project of his career with this new Amazon series, but he would also be the "new guy" on a well-oiled machine of storytellers from the tv series, ATLANTA.  Taking the chance really paid off for Greg.  Not only did he get to try his hand at action, but he got to have his name in the credits twice (Greg also co-produced)! Turning the premise of the 2005 feature film inside out, here John and Jane are two strangers-turned-partners who carry out their spy-like duties under the cover of being married software engineers.  Taking their orders from an unseen task master they call "HiHi", the two learn the ropes of being "Smiths" while learning to love, and somewhat trust, one another. GREG O'BRYANT Prior to working on MR. AND MRS. SMITH, Greg first began his partnership with writer/director Scott Z. Burns on the latter's political drama, THE REPORT (2019).  Greg would also edit an episode of the series, THE LOUDEST VOICE (2019) that Burns helmed.  Most recently, the two collaborated on the Apple TV+ series, EXTRAPOLATIONS (2023).  In addition to his work with Scott Z. Burns, Greg is also a frequent collaborator with show runner, Nick Antosca.  Their partnership first began on CHANNEL ZERO, a SyFy Channel anthology series based on the popular Internet "Creepypastas" Candle Cove, The No-End House and Butcher's Block.  Subsequent projects with Antosca would include Hulu's original series, THE ACT, as well as the Netflix series, BRAND NEW CHERRY FLAVOR.  Greg also edited the tv series, THE GIRLFRIEND EXPERIENCE, adapted from the film by Steven Soderbergh. Editing Mr. and Mrs. Smith In our discussion with MR. AND MRS. SMITH editor, Greg O'Bryant, we talk about: Using score as your "tonal buoy" Turning the tables on the 2005 film of the same name Making a relationship sandwich How film is a director's medium where tv is a writer's medium Where a grumpy p.a. can influence the work The Credits Visit ExtremeMusic for all your production audio needs View the "augmented reality" version of The Rough Cut at Frame.IO Check out the free trial of Media Composer | Ultimate Hear Greg discuss his work on the Netflix series, BRAND NEW CHERRY FLAVOR Listen to Greg detail his experience cutting the Apple TV+ series, EXTRAPOLATIONS Subscribe to The Rough Cut podcast and never miss an episode Visit The Rough Cut on YouTube

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is joined by Wōen and Roxanne from the Woven Ends Collective to talk about death, dying, death work, and everything from how to determine who gets to make decisions about your end of life, to how to have your remains dealt with in the manor that you would like, to how to bring community collaboration into death. Next week, they continue the conversation, focusing mostly on the work of death doulas. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript **Live Like the World is Dying: Woven Ends on Death & Dying Part I ** **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host for today Inmn Neruin and I use they/them pronouns. Today we're talking about something that we sort of reference all the time on the show, and that is death, a thing that we should all live like is going to happen someday. Because it is. I wanted to have Wōen and Roxy on to talk about this because I found myself thinking about it more and more as things change evermore rapidly in our world. And, I think it's cool to talk about because it's just another form of community preparedness that we can all engage in to make our end of lives easier for ourselves and for the people that we care about, and in general, just demystify the topic as we figure out how to leave this world, whether that pertains to navigating funerary industries, medical industries, legal logistics, medical interventions, the choice to die at home, how to have home burials, how to care for the dying, and how to have these conversations as a community. A content warning, obviously, we're going to be talking about some heavy stuff, and we approach it with some amount of levity, but we do talk at some point about the idea of choosing to die from the perspective of terminal illness. But before we get into it, we are a proud member of Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo. [saying these sounds like a song melody] Wōen **Inmn ** 02:43 And we're back. Thanks, y'all so much for coming on the show with us today, especially to talk about a subject that I feel like is like a little bit more grim than we usually talk about. Or, I guess we kind of always always talk about it, but we never actually talk about it. So yeah, would you like to introduce yourselves with your names, pronouns, and kind of like what you do in the world? **Wōen ** 03:17 My name is Wōen. I use he/him pronouns. I work in grave care, so burial, and generally any rot-honoring practice that I can help with. **Roxanne ** 03:41 And my name is Roxanne. I am a nurse and have been doing end of life, and death doula sort of work outside of that, for maybe 15 years or so. Yeah. **Inmn ** 04:01 Cool. And y'all are part of a collective that kind of specializes in this kind of work. Would y'all want to introduce that now or we could talk about it later? **Wōen ** 04:17 Yeah, no, we can introduce it now. Our collective is called Woven Ends. We're more recently becoming more outward facing. We're a collection of death care practitioners and community members who are interested in helping the community. We are focused on combating the domination and alienation in our world through making our death rites and the care for the dying more autonomous and a lot more intimate. **Roxanne ** 05:08 And accessible. **Inmn ** 05:12 Cool. Um yeah, it's weird how much the State is like intertwined in death. And that's like not...I feel like that's not something I ever realized until I realized it and then I was like, "Oh, like can you die without the State being involved?" **Wōen ** 05:35 Like the bureaucratic storm is also guided by the industry and a lot of the rituals that we have now and the way that death operates is it's a contrived effort, the funeral industry, to deal with all aspects after death. So, it's a really troubling, difficult thing that families and loved ones navigate. **Roxanne ** 05:35 No. **Roxanne ** 06:14 Yeah, it's pretty devastating. It's like Capital will take hold and commodify any and every aspect of our life possible and not even our life but our afterlife as well. Like yeah, it's hard to believe in true freedom sometimes, but that's why we're here fighting for it. **Inmn ** 06:38 Yeah, I feel like...Whatever, I'm gonna take like a pretty like light hearted and like whimsical tone today because we're talking about something grim, but I feel like we have these ideas that like, "You know, the State's got me in life, but at least when I die I'll be free," and it's like maybe? I mean, your body won't be. **Roxanne ** 07:14 Sadly, no. Eventually Yes but initially, no. **Inmn ** 07:22 Yeah, I feel like that is a literal nightmare of mine. Could y'all kind of break down like what is death work? Like what is a death doula? What is the Woven Ends collective kind of like do in like a material or emotional way? **Roxanne ** 07:50 Well, I can speak towards death doula work. What a death doula is, is a little undefined. And there are powers that be that are trying to make it more defined and kind of like more commodified. But basically, a death doula is someone who helps a family or a loved one sort of like go through the process. So that could look like, before someone dies, helping come up with some like legacy project, some things that people want to leave behind, or how someone wants to be remembered. So, that could be like, you know, if a 40 year old who has three kids dies, kind of legacy work you could do with someone in that situation is like, you know, help them record videos for their kids' future birthdays, you know, stuff like that so that way when their kids get older, like hit those milestones, they can have this video from their parent that has been gone for a while. So yeah, just kind of like, you know, one aspect is focusing on legacy work. Another aspect is just kind of like emotionally helping people with the grieving process, whether that be the person who's actually passing away or the family sort of like talking through the process of all of that with them. And then, you know, other aspects could be more helping set up funerary services, trying to help work on community aspects of disposition. Yeah, death doula is...It's sort of that the individual does different things. And I think if someone's interested in having a death doula, I would really ask questions about what specific services they provide. **Wōen ** 09:59 Yeah, And I can speak more to like our collective. We definitely, we try to connect the right people to help different community members. So, that could be a death doula or even a grave digger. So, a lot of what we do is like guidance around the whole process. And we definitely want to like expand our scope completely to be able to care for the whole process. But most of what we've been doing in the past, and currently, is helping folks with finding burial options that are accessible and hopefully free. And we've been able to create a network of free home burial grounds where we live. And it's been really awesome to be able to provide this for free. And it usually is in tandem with a lot more care going on with death doulas and generally the radial support that happens when you're trying to create a more autonomous situation. **Roxanne ** 11:28 I would also say that a part of the sort of intentional death work thing is to really help communities and individuals kind of like shift narratives towards death. We live in a really deathphobic society. And it is a thing that I think...you know, like, even in our introduction, we're like, "Okay, so this is a really grim topic," but it's interesting, because it's one of, you know, aside from being alive, it's the only other thing that everyone is going to experience, like the one thing that even if you have nothing in common with somebody else, the fact that you're going to die is a thing that you have in common. And so I feel like there's a lot of room for connection there. And, a part of the sort of work is to try to like, you know, find connection, find community, and sort of shift the narrative around this very natural and inevitable thing that's going to happen, and open up room and space for there to be beauty and transition in that instead of just fear. Because I think oftentimes, people don't actually...They're not scared to die. They're scared of being in pain. And those are very different things. So I think, yeah, just like...death workers offer a space for us to really intentionally look at that and say, like, "Okay, you're feeling scared? What is it that you're scared of?" You know? And really helping shift that narrative and also hopefully providing a space where nobody has to die alone. You know, sometimes that's just going to happen, but if at all possible, making sure that we can provide space--unless someone wants to--but they don't have to die alone. **Inmn ** 13:32 Yeah, we do live in a really deathphobic society. And I...you know, obviously it's a sad and hard and difficult thing, but I feel like I have always wished that there...that we as a culture did have different attitudes or different ways that we deal with it, or grieve, or like mourn, or whatever. I don't know, I've just had a couple kind of funny funerary experiences, where I was like, "Are we celebrating this person's life? Or are we mad at them because they didn't tell anyone how sick they were?" And that just like...Yeah, just like a lot of funny experiences like that. Whereas, I wish that we were, I wish we had, that we had a different attitude towards this right now because I'm not sure if this attitude is like helping anyone. **Roxanne ** 14:43 Yeah, definitely. And I think you bring up a good point too, where because of deathphobia but also because of our obsession with what we consider health, sometimes people are so scared to admit that they're sick because there's so little support and resource around that. And people don't want to be, you know, a burden to each other. And instead of being angry at our friends because they wouldn't tell us how sick they are, it's a great time to, you know, take a moment and be like, "Okay, why do we live in a world in which someone that I loved very much could not tell me how sick they were? And like, how do I fight that world instead of my friend?" **Inmn ** 15:37 Yeah, yeah, totally. You mentioned earlier--I just want to like hit on this before we get too far away from it--but there being some effort to make being a death doula more of a defined thing? And I'm--I know, this is subjective--but is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Is that a complicated thing? **Roxanne ** 16:01 I mean, in my personal opinion, I'm not for that. I feel like the way...like I understand and respect people wanting to figure out how to do this work and still...Like, it makes sense to me that people want to do this work in a permanent way in this world that we live in, this society of capitalism, like people need to get paid for their time in order to survive. Like that makes sense to me. But, I think that there can be a kind of predatory nature to it. And these...It's like the commodification of the death, dying, death doula world is really similar to what happened in the birth community. And I think that's kind of interesting that the link between the two, because people have been doulaing each other since people were...were born about how to do these things. And, if we lived in communities where we were interacting with birth and death in more tangible ways then we wouldn't need sort of outsiders to tell us how to do these things. But yeah, I think that the certification process doesn't make sense. I think it's just another platform of institutionalization and commodification that isn't necessary, you know? It's like, okay, a lot of these certification organizations are offering education, which is amazing, yes. Like, education is so important. But the real education--and I feel like I learned this in nursing school, too--like, you can learn all the ins-and-outs of things, but where you're actually going to learn is through experience. So like, you want to learn how to be a death, doula? Go volunteer for hospice. Like, go watch people die and you will learn so much just from having that experience or like, you know--and not just hospice. You know, there's a lot of ways that people can sit with people at the end of their life. But, you know, like you don't need to pay someone to teach you how to be an active listener. **Wōen ** 18:37 Yeah, and I think...Like in the realm that I work in--which is what they call green or natural burial--like it's all the same pattern of pushing towards professionalization and specialization, and it's being co-opted by the Capitalist system. Even though a lot of these cemeteries that are providing this like really beautiful practice, they didn't intend on that and they structured themselves as a nonprofit. So they just continued to fall into the trappings of what happens when you professionalize something. And now there's overarching regulatory institutions and it's just...It makes it really hard to get into the process and start a cemetery and...Yeah, and they're walking hand-in-hand with the rest of the funeral industry, so, like annually increasing prices for these rituals that were supposed to be a lot more accessible and ecological, but they're not. They're not accessible. **Roxanne ** 20:07 Totally. And I feel like this...Yeah, this focus on specialization really, you know, negates and alienates the fact that we have inherent wisdom as to how to handle these situations. And then when we can't accept or like don't have--courage isn't the word that I'm looking for--confidence in our own, you know, kind of inherent wisdom, then we feel like we need a specialist to tell us what to do, but it's all right there inside of us in information that we can pass down with each other through, you know, actually having a relationship with death, and dying, and disposition, and all the things. So I feel like, yeah, the more we can be connected and like with death, honestly, the better we can be with life also. **Wōen ** 21:11 Yeah, and when we say, "disposition," we mean burial, cremation, you know, being eaten by birds, everything. It's a general term. **Inmn ** 21:27 Yeah, yeah. I feel like...it's fun to use this as the thing to compare it to, but, you know, I think it's important for us to like have, you know, guides through hard times or like people to...people who are very familiar with or versed in leading these experiences or facilitating these experiences, and it's...like, what you were just describing of kind of like what the Death industry is, it reminds me of a like boutique coffee shop or something. Yeah, like turning death and ritual into a boutique coffee experience that is just another strange industry that maybe people feel better about, but, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how much actual connection or like community building that is doing? **Roxanne ** 22:36 Totally. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's a similar thing. Yeah. And again, they did that with the birthing community too. It's, yeah, it's sad. **Wōen ** 22:50 Yeah, and, you know, like with organic foods. **Inmn ** 22:57 Yeah. To kind of switch gears a little bit, why is it important to think about this stuff now? Like, why is it important to think about dying? Why should we be having these conversations as a community? **Wōen ** 23:16 Yeah, I mean, I think it's always been important when you want a culture that renews itself, and especially now when we're facing intense upheaval, developing a deeper intimacy with death, it helps us claim a place, and claim ancestors, and develop a deeper resilience to the chaos in our world. Like when thinking about movements and how under the regime of alienation, and the lack of intergenerational connection, and especially like connection to our ancestors, like, things can really be thwarted without those connections to place or to the people that came before. Yeah, and so being able to be with the unexplainable and unknowable aspect of like... **Roxanne ** 24:47 I think now, as Wōen was just saying, it's so important because we are living in pretty devastating times. It's pretty obvious, I think, to most people with what's going on with the climate, you know, with ecological destruction getting worse very viscerally year by year and not just in one place but all across the world where people are really...You know, you live in Arizona...Wait, maybe I shouldn't say that... **Inmn ** 25:33 I've said it multiple times. **Roxanne ** 25:38 Yeah, well, for example, you live in a place that in the summer if someone accidentally tripped and fell, they would burn themselves on the ground and potentially have to go to the burn ICU. Like, that wasn't true five years ago and it's just only going to become more true for more places across the world. And I think, yeah, just really taking inventory of the trajectory that the world is on right now means that we're...When you're living on a dying planet, you're gonna have to deal with the fact that we are a part of that planet and not separate from that. And I think also, you know, the question of "Why now?" is, like, both a societal question and then also kind of an individual question because I think...You know, I am 39 years old. I think most people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, even 50s aren't really thinking, and hopefully, you know...People even younger than that obviously, need to be thinking about this stuff, too. But I think that, you know, often the more like normative stance--which is also partially a bliss--is just to be like, "Oh, you know, if I have a fine bill of health then why should I be concerned about these things?" And we all know people die unexpectedly. We all know our relationship to health, and all the different forms that that can look like, can change at any moment. We all know that life isn't just inevitable. And so I think really thinking about these things and really starting to prepare for these things is one of the best things we can do to help not just, you know, those around us when we die, but also to help inform how we live our lives. No matter what age you are, I think it's important to be thinking about and talking about. I've been having conversations, for example, with my mom about the fact that she was gonna die since I was like five years old. And then at some point, I was like, "Oh, wait, if you're dying, that means I'm dying too. Shit, I'm gonna have to think about this." **Inmn ** 28:23 Yeah, what does? You know, this is the fun moment where we get to say the name of the podcast in a question, but how does one live like they're dying? Like, what does that mean? **Wōen ** 28:40 I mean, I think it's understanding that ecologically and spiritually the dead make the world. Our ancestors are not just like our [uninterpretable. "In our dirt?"]. They're what came before use. They're everything we eat, and breathe, and even conceive of, and dream of. So, it's fully opening our minds to understanding the deep cycle of life. **Roxanne ** 29:17 Yeah. And, you know, some intentionality, recognizing that the things that we do and how we treat ourselves and each other do matter, you know? Like they do matter because we are people experiencing each other. Or, they don't matter in the way that we are tiny pieces of sand floating around on this huge rock in this ginormous atmosphere. You know? It's like it's both. Both things are happening at the same time. We are a multitude it turns out? Both how we are and who we are matters and also doesn't at all. But I think just like really honoring the fact that it's a limited resource, that life is actually a limited resource, and that the time that we spend together is also limited, and trying to really love people while you can, to be brave enough to really love the people in your life while you can. **Inmn ** 30:32 Yeah, I feel like we have such a...our culture has such a focus on the concept of "later" and the future that like...And you know, this is maybe obvious because a lot of the society that we live in is founded on this idea of...or like founded by people who are informed by a religion that embraces an afterlife that...and something I've really appreciated about--I'm not necessarily an atheist--but like something I've always appreciated about atheism is that it is weirdly pro life and pro living in this way where it's like, "Yeah, there's nothing after this so you gotta do what you want to do now, not later. **Wōen ** 31:32 Yeah that's kind of...I mean, I think the Christian worldview is inherently disassociating from your body? Yeah. Not a good place to start. **Inmn ** 31:53 Yeah, just to switch gears a little bit, I want to talk a little bit more about the logistics of death. So, something that I think about a lot is like, if, you know, if I get sick tomorrow, if I get in an accident tomorrow and like my condition suddenly changes like rapidly, and I have feelings about how I want...like what interventions I want taken or how I want...Let's start with interventions. And then we'll move on to other bits, but how do I prepare for that? How do I prepare for getting the...having the interventions that I want taken or not taken? Or, how do I get to choose who gets to make those decisions when I'm no longer able to? **Wōen ** 32:59 So, the simplest answer to that would be to complete an Advanced Directive that's legally binding. And so this designates the person who will be your advocate legally, to make choices at the end of life and after death. Yeah, and this ends up...Yeah, this supersedes the legal next of kin, which without designating the power of attorney, will be your biological family. So this is really important if you don't want them to be in charge of what you want to happen to you at the end of life or after your death. **Inmn ** 34:00 Do you have something to add to that Roxy? **Roxanne ** 34:02 I do. I think that I just wanted to add that making choices around your health care power of attorney, like who that person should or could be, I think sometimes there can be a lot of pressure from people that are close to you that just because you're close with someone that they should be the one to help make those medical decisions for you. But, I would like to argue that maybe that's not always the best person. What you want in these situations is someone who will follow the directive that you lay out, because just because you have this document stating how you would like for things to go, at the end of the day, the healthcare power of attorney actually gets to make the final call. So maybe you say, you know, "CPR is okay. But I don't want to be intubated." At the end of the day, if your healthcare power of attorney decides, "I want them to be intubated," despite what your paperwork says, they can intubate you. So you really want to pick someone who can...who you think will follow what you've asked for and also someone who, even if they don't have the information themselves, will educate themselves or ask the right questions to make decisions that they think you will want. And it's also I think good to think about, you know, if, for example, you think your partner is going to be so worried and like so in a process of grief, that maybe they're not the one to choose because maybe it's better for them to just to get to be in the grief process and not having to make these big decisions. I've seen so many times in the hospital where the family feels like if they choose to, quote unquote, "Pull the plug," that they're the ones that killed their loved one, not whatever, you know, situation their person was in or just that the bodies can only handle so much. And I think that, yeah, giving someone healthcare power of attorney is--I'm not going to say it's a burden--but there is definitely the potential for weight behind that and it is a serious question. It's not...it's not a popularity contest. It's not about who you like the most. It's about who you really think can help make the decisions when they need to be made or who's going to be brave enough to call it when it needs to be called. **Inmn ** 37:24 Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. **Wōen ** 37:27 Yeah, I think that just kind of reveals the need for, you know, models of anarchist mutual aid where we all support each other. And it's like, being able to have these conversations and support each other outside of these really normative pathways of the nuclear family. And yeah, breaking that prescription on... **Roxanne ** 38:04 I guess I just wanted to add that, for sure, if you want to make sure, as as close as is possible...If you wanted to make sure as much as what's in your capability that your wishes are going to be met with interventions, having an Advanced Directive is the only real way to do that legally. So, if you don't feel like, as Wōen was saying earlier, if you don't feel like you fully trust your family to do the things that you would want to do, you have to have that written down. You have to have it notarized. You really have to go through that process. It's really important. **Inmn ** 38:45 Yeah, and then it seems what is kind of equally as important is having those conversations with your community and with whoever you're designating as your power of attorney, so that like...Yeah, it's like, I'm imagining in this situation that you've built where like, your partner might not be the best person, so you make this Advanced Directive and you designate someone, who's maybe not your partner, as the power of attorney, and then it seems like you have to then have conversations with that person, or with your community as a whole, about what you want. And then...Like, I'm imagining this situation where you do that and then it's like--so it's not entirely falling on one person--maybe one person has to legally make those decisions, but like other people can support them or like it can be a little like network of support that like kind of helps hold people to like what your best wishes were? Does that kind of make sense? **Wōen ** 39:53 Absolutely. And it's like…an Advanced Directive is not all encompassing. Like, being able to guide the types of rituals you want and...Yeah, like, every little detail that you want, you should be able to have, but you have to have those conversations and they have to be on going with as many of your loved ones as possible. So, the Advanced Directive is kind of a way to safeguard against the powers that be from taking control of your life and your death. But, it [hard to tell, but probably "lasts"] like a lot of other guidance that relies on being able to talk about it. **Inmn ** 40:42 So, this is something that I was kind of thinking about with this is like if...So, say maybe that in this hypothetical that I don't have like the best relationship with my parents, or say I have a fine relationship with my parents who are still alive, but I don't think they would make the best decisions, so I designate someone from, you know, my chosen family network to be my power of attorney. But then, you know, I get sick. I get into an accident. And suddenly, my family, my biological family and my chosen family, are in the same room. Is there? I imagine those situations can get pretty contentious, especially for my biological family to find out that they do not have the power of attorney. Like, I guess, obviously, you should maybe have those conversations with your family, but like I...You know, I would rather...I would rather not have that conversation with my family where I'm like, "Hi, I have taken away your medical power of attorney over me." But I also don't want to like necessarily entirely pass that off to my friends to deal with. Like...I don't know, have you like seen situations like that that were contentious, went well, or like, do you have any tips for navigating that? **Wōen ** 42:24 Well, I mean, in different forms I've seen it. I think it's important to say, once you have your power of attorney designated the family no longer have...like, they don't have control. The power of attorney does. And so like in a situation like you're describing, I think, the idea of communal care comes in, where you can have...Like, maybe the person who is your health care advocate isn't necessarily the one who is negotiating with the family or mediating. Just having more people involved to take care of the situation, I think is the best advice I can give. **Roxanne ** 43:20 Yeah, I would say, you know, I always push towards tending towards collaboration when possible. So if someone's family is just absolutely unwilling to work with, you know, the chosen family or the person who has power of attorney then honestly that situation actually just hurts them more. So, I think as much as people can collaborate, the better. And recognizing and appreciating the fact that everyone in a situation is going through some kind of fear and grief, and we don't always behave our best in those situations. So, trying to be generous with each other and give each other time and space to--you know, I'm not saying you have to deal with someone using abusive language towards you or anything like that--but just, you know, recognizing that this can be a real space of grief and that collaboration might not seem possible at first and then it is. I've had situations where collaboration seemed really possible. And then the friend's family member flipped out and tried to get us all kicked out of the hospital. This is before I was a nurse and was just a really kind of traumatic situation for everyone but ended up--like this is actually the situation that really got me on the tip of like, "Oh, we have to have Advanced Directives. This is like imperative." But yeah, I think, as Wōen already said, as much as people can work with each other and collaborate, even if you've been told stories throughout your whole friendship with someone about, you know, what a monster their parent is, or whatever, just like focus on the task at hand, which is helping your friend get safe, and accessible, and good care for as long as they can. And if you need the family to be a part of that, great. And if a family has to go--because sometimes the family's gotta go--you get to make that call. And it's like, if they gotta go, they gotta go. But hopefully that won't be the case. I think it's just...like from a harm reductionist standpoint. **Inmn ** 46:02 Yeah, yeah. Does a family have any legal recourse against a power of attorney? Like, I can imagine a family believing that they have some kind of legal recourse, but like could they sue people? Could they challenge it? **Wōen ** 46:22 I mean, I'm gonna say, no. I know that that happens like a lot of legal challenges happen. But in the moment, I think, what should guide is that health care and funeral services will honor the healthcare power of attorney. So yeah, I think that that is a risk in a really contentious situation, but it is not likely that the healthcare system or the funeral professionals will dishonor the Advanced Directive. **Roxanne ** 47:12 And it might be a situation, like in a hospital sort of setting, it might be a thing where they kind of set up a mediation with an ethics board sort of thing. But at the end of the day, the legal document is the legal document. Yeah. **Inmn ** 47:30 Yeah. And, I'm imagining that the answer to this is along a similar lines, but like, in the reverse situation, if I don't have a power of attorney designated or an Advanced Directive, but I have, you know, my friends that I've had these conversations with about this or I have a journal entry or something about this, I'm guessing that doesn't have...like, at the end of the day, it's the the family or the next of kin, whoever has been legally designated has all of that power to make those decisions? **Wōen ** 48:07 Yeah, and again, that's where a united community who can help, you know, maybe approach the family to be able to negotiate or collaborate. Yeah, that would be the right place to start. But also, if that's not possible, knowing that you can still hold space for your grief as a community even if you're separated from the actual process of dying and death, and that you can enact the depths of meaning that you need and connection with each other. Yeah. **Roxanne ** 48:07 Yeah. **Inmn ** 49:02 Um, to kind of switch gears a little bit, this is a weird question. God. How much does it cost to die? Like obviously, you know, if you do die then that expense is not going to be your responsibility, but I'm imagining this situation like from--I don't know if y'all have seen that movie Little Miss Sunshine. [Roxanne makes an affirmative noise] But like, the grandpa dies, and they're like, "It'll cost this much money to get the body," and they're like, "We don't have that." So, they steal the body. Yeah, how much does it cost to die and have your remains something or anothered? I don't know what...I don't know what a good word is. **Wōen ** 49:55 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can definitely speak to after death. I think the national average has risen, but like a few years ago it was around $8,000 to do a really normal funeral service like burial. More and more people are choosing cremation because it is cheaper, even though it is getting more expensive. And the average cremation cost is anywhere from $1000 to $3000 based on what type of package you buy from the funeral home. There's a lot of ways that funeral homes can be predatory. Not all funeral homes are predatory, but the vast majority are. And every year it gets more expensive. So yeah, it just depends on your form of disposition. So like, if you're doing cremation it's gonna be a lot cheaper. But often people choose that because it's cheaper, not because of thoughts of that's exactly what they wanted, you know? They're thinking about the financial situation of the family, and yeah, it shouldn't be that way. They should have the type of ritual and disposition that they want. Yeah, it's a pretty horrifying situation. Yeah. **Inmn ** 51:28 And, like, what happens to...You know, normally when you go to the hospital there's a bill, but if you die, like who has to pay for the care that you received? **Roxanne ** 51:44 Yeah, your family will get that debt as far as I understand. They're a next of kin kind of situation. **Inmn ** 52:00 So, when I think about my own wishes around my remains, you know, one of those fantasies or ideas is that I would love to, you know, not be embalmed. I would love to have my body rot in the ground. Is that possible? **Wōen ** 52:16 Absolutely. To start, the only federal law around death is that you don't have to be embalmed. It's a strange, actually good law as kind of a response to an exploding funeral industry I think around--I don't exactly remember--decades ago. And so a lot of advocates pushed for that to happen. Yeah, so you definitely don't have to be embalmed even if you go to a funeral home. And if they say like, "This is the only way," they're lying. But luckily that's happening less and less because natural burial, or what they call green burial, is getting a lot more popular. And it's, I think in all states now in this country you can find a place at least within like 100 miles. But, I would advocate that if you have access to land in any way, you should do a home burial, even if that means you have to go through some bureaucracy and like create an official cemetery. You should do that because you've now created a burial ground that others can be buried at in the type of way that you want, to honor rot, to honor the ecosystem. Yeah, so definitely what you want is very possible. **Inmn ** 54:15 Cool. Um, yeah, can--I'm sure it's complicated state by state--but like, can you if you own land, or you know someone that owns land, they can just designate part of it as a cemetery and then people can get buried there? Is that like? What is that process like? **Wōen ** 54:39 It really is county by county. Yeah, county by county. Yeah, it's really...I would say where we, where I am in the southeast, as a general statement, in any rural area it is widely practiced still and it's very easy to do home burial. And as another general statement, you just...you can't do this within city limits. And I think that, for good reason, because, you know, they are hubs of capitalism with land turning over and...Like, from where we're sitting even, you know, half a mile down the road, they're desecrating a Black cemetery that they just unearthed that had been paved over at least twice. So it's...I think, like, yeah. So, being able to be outside of the city limits is the best option and most accessible. I know some states are more difficult. And there's more...like there's more red tape. I would say to research where you live. Yeah. And really think about doing this for your community. **Roxanne ** 55:59 What a gift. We live in a time where land and space is becoming--I mean, has been, is becoming--such an intense battlefield for resources. It's just like a really, really intense thing to have is land and space. So being able to provide that for people for free, even just to put their body in is such an incredible resource. **Wōen ** 56:34 Yeah, I know there's...I know there's a lot of kind of...I've heard of some wild ways to have your remains dealt with that...Maybe just to add a little bit of fun levity to the situation. But uh, I've heard you can get turned into diamonds now? **Roxanne ** 56:58 Yeah. **Inmn ** 57:00 Cool. **Wōen ** 57:00 You can get turned into a bowling ball. **Inmn ** 57:03 You can get turned into a bowling ball? I feel like this is a plot to a movie from the 90s. **Wōen ** 57:10 Yeah, I mean, it's...Yeah, you can do a lot with cremated remains. Pretty cool. **Roxanne ** 57:18 Mushroom soup. **Wōen ** 57:19 Uh-huh **Roxanne ** 57:20 I'm really into the soup, personally. **Inmn ** 57:22 The mushroom soup? **Roxanne ** 57:24 Yeah. **Inmn ** 57:25 What is the mushroom soup? **Wōen ** 57:27 What the mushrooms do. I would say it is a little...there needs to be more research on this mushroom soup. But, fungus is a late stage decomposer and this mushroom soup is something you're supposed to be buried in. That's what they're proposing. But often initial decomposition is way too hot and will eat up fungus. And so, it's a little bit not completely thought out. Yeah, so I wouldn't advocate for the mushroom soup, but I would advocate for, you know, creating an aerobic environment to be buried in so you rot really well. And you don't have to worry, the fungus will be there. They will be there to eat up your bones and all your desiccated tissue. Yeah. **Roxanne ** 58:30 I'm picturing like ground lasagna, you know, where there's like dirt, and worms, and things, and then like a layer of mycelial...input. **Wōen ** 58:47 Yeah, that makes the world go round. **Inmn ** 58:51 Yeah. And you can, like on a similar vein, I've heard in Oregon you can get composted? **Wōen ** 59:03 Yeah, I think now it's legal in eight states. It started in Seattle. They call it human composting or natural organic reduction is another term they use. But basically, they're accelerating the decomposition of your soft tissues. I think it's a really awesome thing, especially for folks who don't have access to land because you become soil really fast. And I think a lot of them partner with forest areas where they'll spread your soil. Yeah, I think it's awesome. And I really hope that they make it accessible, you know, like the rest of the Green Death movement. It remains to be seen. But, I hope that that happens. **Inmn ** 1:00:14 Thanks so much for listening. This turned into a much longer episode than we thought it would, which is great that there's just so much to talk about around this topic. So, that's the end of part one. If you enjoyed the show, please go talk to your community about death and tell us about it. And, think about filing an Advanced Medical Directive and power of attorney. We will be back next week with the second half of this episode where me and Roxy will talk a lot more about what it means to be a death doula. I know these topics can be hard and scary, but I think talking about them helps us to not worry about them as much and offers a lot of hope to our communal resilience. If you enjoyed the show, please go tell people about it. You can support this podcast by telling people about it. You can support it by talking about it on social media, rating, and reviewing, or doing whatever the nameless algorithm calls for, as much as I don't want that to be something that's true. You can also support us in a financial way by following us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Our Patreon helps pay for things like transcriptions or our lovely audio editor, Bursts, as well as going to support our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We put out a few more podcasts including my other podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, a monthly podcast of anarchist literature, and the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is the podcast for people who love movies and hate cops. And we would like to shout out some of our patrons in particular. Thank you Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalis. 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Episode Summary Carrot and Margaret talk about all things hiking, including thru-hiking and ultralight hiking. They talk about how to choose the right gear for the right purposes and how to minimize the impacts of long distance hiking on your body. They go through the complications of bringing dogs on long hikes and how to stay safer around grizzly bears. They also spend a good deal of time critiquing The Last of Us while developing a theory on how to hybridize many hiking strategies to develop the ultimate form of apocalypse travel. Guest Info Carrot Quinn (she/they) is an author, thru-hiker and hiking coach. She is the author of Thru-Hiking Will Break Your Heart and The Sunset Route. Carrot has a new speculative fiction novel coming out later this year, hopefully. Carrot is also an avid blogger and you can find them at www.carrotquinn.com or on Instagram @carrotquinn and Twitter @CarrotQuinn Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Carrot on Hiking Margaret 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. And this week we are talking about walking and how to do it, the legs, the one in front of the other, etc. And in order to do so, we're going to be talking to an expert walker, or hiker, I suppose might be a better way of phrasing it, Carrot Quinn. And so we're going to be talking to her about all this stuff. Carrot writes a bunch of books about hiking and does a bunch of hiking. And so I'm really excited, because this has been on my mind a lot. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:55 Okay, we're back. So Carrot, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns. And then I guess kind of like your background in hiking, thru-hiking, that kind of stuff. Carrot 02:07 My name is Carrot Quinn, and my pronouns are she or they and I got into long distance hiking in 2013. And long distance hiking is different from other kinds of backpacking, because you're just out for longer, I guess. And usually also, you're on trails that have a really specific weather window, which means that you need to hike more miles per day than you would on a more leisurely backpacking trip in order to finish in a certain weather window, or because the water sources are farther apart. So, you need to hike a certain mile per a day to get to the water sources, which means that you end up using different gear, because when you're out for that long and hiking that many miles, it's a lot more strain on your joints. And so, in order to be able to do it, you need to have lighter gear that puts less strain on your joints, or else you get overuse injuries. And you also wear different shoes. So, there's this whole different kind of way of walking in the wilderness, which I got into because I'd always backpacked with a heavy backpack, and I was always in pain. And then I discovered this style, and I wasn't in pain anymore. And I was like, "Oh my God, if I do this, I can just like live outside and sleep on the ground every night and I won't be in pain." So than I got really into it. And I hiked the PCT in 2013. Margaret 03:19 What's the PCT? Carrot 03:19 The Pacific Crest Trail, which is 2,650 or 60 miles depending on how you count. It takes five months to hike. I got really obsessed with it for a while. So, I've hiked 11,000 miles. I've hiked from Mexico to Canada three times. And I've also walked across Utah, and Arizona, and done a bunch of other shorter hikes. And I've hiked finished trails where there's like a path on the ground that you walk, like the Pacific Crest Trail, and I've hiked trails where there's not a path on the ground, and you're just navigating through canyons and washes and stuff. And then I've also made my own routes, which is where you look at the maps and figure out where you can walk and then you follow the path that you created. Margaret 03:20 I was gonna say that's wild, but I guess that's literally the point. That it's wild. Okay, and then you've written about this too, right? Carrot 04:13 Yeah, so I have a writing career more or less, most years I make my living as a writer. And I was able to build that by writing about long distance hiking, because it's a pretty popular niche. I've been writing my whole life. I always wanted to be a writer, and in my 20s I wrote zines and then I started blogging in 2008. And then I started long distance hiking in 2013. And so every one of these hikes I've ever done, all 11,000 miles I've hiked, I've written a blog post every single day. And so that's how I built my writing career because then people started reading those and people love reading about long distance hiking, you know, because it's hard to get time off work. It's hard to get the gear. It's hard to access, and so people being able to read that from the comfort of their home is like really nice. And so then I wrote a book about my first long distance hike, which is called "Thru-Hiking Will Break Your Heart." And that book is great, because I made so many bad choices. So, it's like a very good story. Because you know, the best stories come from when you're like completely brand new at something. Margaret 05:21 Yeah. Carrot 05:21 And everything goes like horribly awry. Those are like the best stories. So, I wrote that book. And then my second book was actually a memoir about growing up in Alaska and my years riding freight trains. And that came out in 2021. Margaret 05:37 What's that one called? Carrot 05:43 And it's kind of sad. It's not like the happiest, but whatever. But then, I just finished a speculative fiction novel about this young person that is fleeing this destabilizing city and riding her bike across the country trying to get to Nevada. So, I'm editing that right now. Margaret 05:57 Oh my god, is that out yet? Can I read it? Carrot 05:59 No. Margaret 05:59 Fuck. Carrot 05:59 I hope it'll come out someday. I don't know what the title is, either, but, I'm editing it right now. And, if I self publish, hopefully I can get it out by the end of the year. And I'm leaning towards self publishing. So, we'll see. Hopefully, it'll be out sooner rather than later. Margaret 06:16 Okay. Well, let's talk about that off camera. I think a lot about publishing speculative fiction, and I do it sometimes. Carrot 06:26 Yeah, you write speculative fiction too. Margaret 06:28 Yeah. Carrot 06:29 We could just talk about that for hours and hours. Margaret 06:33 I mean, I also like talking about that. Can I out us to the audience about how we know each? Is that...you seem pretty public about that. Carrot 06:41 Yeah, totally. Margaret 06:41 Yeah, I first met Carrot--actually, I don't remember if it's where we first met--but, we lived together in a squat in the South Bronx in 2004. And so, I've been following Carrot's career from afar since then being like, "Oh, shit, fuck yeah, another crust punk who became a writer." Carrot 07:00 And I've also been following Margaret's career and like hearing little updates about her life over the years and being like, "Oh, that's where Margaret is, that's what Margaret's doing. Oh, it's super cool." Margaret 07:10 Yeah. Yeah. I'm really excited to have you on to talk about this. And, I admit one of the reasons I'm really excited to have you on about this--because there's a couple reasons--one is because this topic is really interesting to me and has been for a while, you know, during say, the last presidential election when there was a decent chance of a fascist coup, and there was, you know, an attempt at one, myself and a lot of other people probably had to sit there and think, "What would be involved if I had to go on foot a long way to get away from here?" Right? And I think that that kind of thing is probably on a lot of people's minds, especially on a state by state basis right now, as a lot of states become increasingly unwelcoming and things. And of course, at the moment, people are allowed to leave states by cars and stuff, but whatever, we'll get to that. But, the other reason I'm interested in is because I've recently gotten more into hiking, and I've been obsessively watching YouTube videos of thru-hikers, and mostly these people really annoy me, but the stuff is really interesting. And, your name gets mentioned a lot in the sort of pantheon of thru-hiking writers as the person that everyone's like, "Well, I'm no Carrot Quinn," or whatever. So, I just think that's really cool. That's probably why I'm excited to talk to you. So, what is involved--and this is a very broad question, but what is involved in deciding that you want to go on a very long hike? Carrot 08:42 What is involved? Well, so, I really love this intersection of topics that we're talking about because those are the two things that occupy my brain all the time is overland travel by foot, and near future societal collapse. So yeah. Margaret 08:58 Yeah, you're writing a book about that. Carrot 08:59 Yeah. And, in the novel I just wrote, she starts out on her bike, but the bike breaks, and then she's just on foot. And, one thing I love while thinking about this stuff is like--for example, have you seen The Last of Us? Margaret 09:12 Yeah. Carrot 09:13 So they're on a long overland journey, a lot of it is on foot. And there are all these plot holes in my opinion because there are things about the way they're traveling on foot that just aren't realistic. Like their footwear is uncomfortable. They never drink water. None of their gear is waterproof. They're not properly dressed for the weather. So, I think that's really.... Margaret 09:29 Yeah, they have these tiny packs, but not not in an ultralight way. Carrot 09:33 They're tiny backpacks. They're just these bottomless pits of whatever they need. Somehow they have batteries, which like, you wouldn't have batteries. So, something I'm also really fascinated about, like thinking about near future collapse, is how we're going to be living in this hybrid time where we'll have all these materials available to us that are from this society where things are mass produced, but we'll be in a society where things are no longer are going to be mass produced. So, we'll be sort of like transitioning over the course of decades, from having access to certain materials to not having access to any of those materials. And that's like really interesting to me. And The Last of Us is set 20 years after collapse, so a lot of the stuff they have access in the show I don't think they would have anymore. Margaret 10:19 They a little bit talk about it where like, "Oh, the gasoline isn't quite as good. We have to stop all the time to siphon," but then they're just kind of like, "And then we just drive," you know? Carrot 10:28 Yeah, but like the batteries, you know, for their flashlights, they just...But yes, that's really interesting to me, thinking about for example, like a long journey. Like right now, the only reason I can long distance hike is because I have all this really high tech gear because you know, 30 years ago, to do a trail, like the Pacific Crest Trail, all of the gear was super heavy. So, you had to be sort of this like elite athlete in a way. Like just anybody couldn't do it because everything was so heavy, it was really hard on your body, like it was brutal. And now, because of this like really high tech gear we have, our packs are much lighter, and we just wear trail runners, and so it's much more accessible. And so, that's the only reason I can do it physically. And the only reason I enjoy it. Like, I wouldn't enjoy it otherwise. And so, it's interesting to think about, like, you know, in the future what people would use. But, to answer your question, if you wanted to do like, you know, where we are precollapse, if you wanted to go on a long hike--you know, the thing is that one of the things that's hardest for people is getting the time off. I like trails that are more than a month long, because walking long distances is our special secret human superpower. Like, no other animal can walk long distances the way we can. Like, people think that that's how we evolved from apes is we started like walking our prey to death, because a lot of animals… Margaret 11:50 Yeah, persistence hunters! Carrot 11:49 Yeah, a lot of animals sprint and then they sleep and they sprint and they sleep. But, we can just like zombie forward like endlessly, like just fucking zombie until our prey just like collapses with exhaustion. It takes--but a lot of us like the way we live, we don't spend a lot of time walking every day. And so, it takes time to sort of unlock that ability and get our tendons--that's like the biggest thing--like, our joints used to it. And so, if you were going to do a trail, like the PCT for example, that's like a five month trail, you would start out really slow, like say doing like 15 miles a day. You know, you would train beforehand so that you could do 15 miles a day. And then you would start doing that. And then, if you started feeling any pain in your joints, you would take days off, or pull way back. And then after about a month your joints get used to it, and that like superpower is unlocked. I've seen this happen so many times, because so many people the PCT is their first trail and they start right off the couch and they're not athletes--you don't have to be an athlete, like I'm not an athlete, I'm just a regular person--and as long as you don't get injured, or have some sort of illness you can unlock this superpower. And then, it's like, it doesn't hurt anymore. And you can just walk, and walk, and walk and it's really cool. So, that's why I recommend doing a trail that's more than a month, because it takes a month for the pain to go away and to feel like you've unlocked that superpower that I think all humans have, you know, barring injury or illness. And so, if you hike like a five month trail or three months trail then you have a month of discomfort, but then you have several months where you get to exist in this really cool body. But, it's hard to get the time off. So, a lot of people who long distance hike work seasonally or they'll you know, do the kind of work where you can--like in tech or as an engineer, as a nurse or whatever--where you can work for a period of time, like a couple of years and then quit, and then go back to work. The biggest demographics on a long trail are people just out of college and retired people, because those are the two people who have the easiest time finding that chunk of time. Margaret 12:30 That makes a lot of sense to me. I've always kind of wanted to do this, and it's never quite been a high enough priority. And this brings me to not the most important question, but my main question about it. I know that you can't thru-hike any of the existing like triple crown, meaning Pacific Coast Trail, Appalachian Trail, and whatever the third one is...Continental Divide Trail? What's the third one? Carrot 14:12 Yeah, yeah. Margaret 14:13 I know you can't bring a dog with you on those three because they go through National parks. But what do you do about dogs? I mean, like because in my mind my dog has way more energy than me, but I'm realizing that my dog has way more energy than me not necessarily in the sustained persistence hunter way that you're talking about. Carrot 14:31 Exactly. Margaret 14:32 So, I'm curious what is a limit of--I mean, obviously every dog is gonna be different and things like that-- but can you thru-hike with a dog if you're going way slower and you're not doing the seasonal running thing? You're just like....yeah, somewhere there's a question in there. Carrot 14:52 Yeah, totally. So you can. People do bring their dogs on the long trails. You kind of need a support person, so you can hand off your dog before you go through the no dog sections, and then get your dog back. It's considered cruel to bring a dog on a five month hike, because the way they exercise is so different than the way that we exercise. Margaret 15:11 Right. Carrot 15:11 They go really hard. And then they need more rest than we do. Like in Alaska, they have the Iditarod, which is this big sled dog race. And, it just happened. It just finished, and it's 1000 miles long. And the person who just won did it in eight days. So, his dogs ran over 100 miles a day. And so, these dogs trained really hard. And that is like the pinnacle of what they can do. So they could go really far, but they still can't necessarily go 20 miles a day, everyday for five months. And so, it's actually really rare for someone to thru-hike with a dog. You can do it, but it goes against their natural kind of the way their energy is throughout the day. Margaret 15:48 Right. Carrot 15:49 And so, one reason it's discouraged is because it's really hard to know, if your dog is too hot, it's hard to know if your dog is tired. Like a lot of dogs will follow their person, you know, to the point of injury, you know, because they just want to stay with you. So, people do it. But, it's rare. It's not natural for them. Like, we can do it and thrive. And they just kind of are low key suffering and maybe about to break. It's hard to tell. Margaret 16:28 Yeah, no, and so I guess I'm kind of curious. There's like two scenarios I imagine. One is because there's no one I can leave my dog with for a long period of time. So, I just sort of assume I will not be thru-hiking anytime soon, right? Because, you know, there's a creature I'm responsible for, and no one else is currently responsible for that creature. But I'm like, is there a sense of like you don't want to take your dogs on a month long hike? Do you want to take your dogs on a two week hike? Do you want to take your dogs only...Like, my dog loves going on day hikes with me. And from when I was like, you know, an oogle, a crusty traveler, like a lot of the dogs that I was around--I mean, obviously, not all of them--some of them were treated very badly. But, many of the dogs were very happy in that they got to be with their person all day and they were always like exercising and stuff. But, that wasn't like we're walking 20 miles today. That's often like we're walking five miles today, we're, you know, hitchhiking. We're doing all these other things. I'm just wondering if you have a sense of 1) The limit in terms of like the now, and then 2) If there's a sense of what you would think for if your protagonist escaping the apocalypse has a dog like, what are ways to work around that? Like I could imagine...like, if I had to leave, right, do I get a dog backpack? It's about 45 pounds. I would be sad. But like, if you know, if I'm not hiking for fun and I'm hiking for "I gotta get somewhere," right? Carrot 17:58 Yeah. So, people hiking the long distance trails, there's like a standard sort of blanket mileage that varies, but people generally say like 20 miles a day is kind of the standard. And so, over the course of like a month, three months, five months different dog breeds are different, but depending on your dog that could be too much for your dog. Like, your dog might need more rest days. But like, maybe your dog could do 20 miles a day for three days, but then they would need a day or two off, you know? Margaret 18:27 Right. Carrot 18:27 And so what you would have to do is instead of being tied to the weather window of the trail, you would be tied to how your dog is doing. So, you would just have to really be in touch with all your dog's signs, like does your dog...Like, know how to tell if your dog is too hot, if your dog's feet hurt, all these different things, and then you would just have to adjust your travel based on your dog. So, you just wouldn't...you wouldn't necessarily be able to hike the PCT in the five month window. And you would end up if you were in an arid area you would end up carrying more water. Because if you go slower than it's farther between water sources because the West is so dry. So, you would carry more water. But yeah, you would just plan the hike much differently. And it would be your own journey with your dog. Margaret 19:13 Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, I realized...I pretty quickly disabused myself of the notion that I was going to be hiking the Appalachian Trail, or PCT, or anything anytime soon. Secretly, this podcast is me just asking people for advice about my own life and problems and then hoping it's universally usable in some ways. But that makes sense to me. And then it does seem like, you know, everything I'm reading about, what you're talking about, like hiking with lighter packs and all of that, and how it has all these advantages in being able to go further and be more sustainable and all of these things. And it does seem like a lot of the choices that people would have to make in different survival scenarios might counteract that, because if I'm talking about like...Okay, if I was hiking through the desert with the dog, I need way more water, which means I'm carrying a heavier pack and then also if I'm out longer I might need a different level of survival equipment. It seems like it would kind of escalate pack weight very quickly? Carrot 20:07 Yeah. But, I think that the sort of minimalism that one learns--like, it's the sort of strategic minimalism that you learn when you do a five month hike because all you have to think about every day is like what you're carrying and how heavy it feels and so you get really good at like...Just, it's like strategy. And so I think that would carry over, where even if you, you know, didn't have all these high tech materials, were in the desert, had a dog, like all these different things, your pack will still end up lighter than if you didn't use this sort of really fun strategic thing that I'm sure you've encountered on YouTube. Margaret 20:44 Yeah, yeah. No, go ahead. Sorry. Carrot 20:47 Yeah, yeah. But, it would be heavier. But then you would just work around that. Like, if your pack is heavier you don't go as many miles a day because it's harder on your joints. And you just, you know, you just work around that too. Like, last fall was my second season hunting in Alaska tagging along on my friends hunts, and I've never had to carry a pack as heavy as I do hunting. And that's been like a whole new learning curve being like, Okay, this is a 60 pound pack. Like, I can only go this many miles. You know, I have to really be careful like all these different things. Margaret 21:21 Yeah. Yeah, that is the thing that I because I, you know, I come from this background of like failed train hopping and regular hitchhiking. And like, these long distance walks and things like that, but not hiking. And I would need what I need to sleep and all of these things. And so, you know, we used to kind of make fun of ultralight hikers, who are like, you know, shaving off every ounce of what they could And it's like, well, I knew Pogo Dave who traveled with a big metal Pogo stick or whatever, right? And, you know, walked across the country pushing a shopping cart and shit. But then you just realize how different these setups are, and what their goals are is so completely different. And so yeah, I don't know quite how to phrase it, but I'm so interested in the difference between the 60 pound hunting pack and the 9.8 pound, you know, backpacking pack or whatever. And i did, I ran across these people. And I My first thought was like, "Well, fuck that. Just like carry what you need. Whatever," you know. And then slowly, when you see the people who are like less annoying about it, you're like, "Oh, I think I get it. I think I understand why they're doing this," you know? Carrot 21:21 Yeah, it's about injury prevention not being in pain and knowing what your goal is. So, if your goal is to finish a five month trail hiking 12 hours a day for five months, your chance of injury is really high. So, the lighter your pack is, to an extent, you know, the lighter your pack is the lower your chance of injury, and the less pain you'll be in. So, it actually really increases your enjoyment. The only caveat being--the rules I tell people because I do long distance hiking coaching and I do these like guided trips where I help people like make their gear lists and stuff--the rules...Here are the rules: you need to be warm, well fed, comfortable enough at night to sleep well, and be prepared for all the different weather you're gonna encounter at that season in that area. And as long as your gear fits those rules you meet those guidelines. Like, the lighter your pack is the more fun you're gonna have. Margaret 23:28 Yeah, it makes sense to me. I just have so many questions about ultralight stuff. It's just so fascinating to me. It seems like one of the things where people go without, to me, what seems like emergency equipment. Like, because I think about...it seems like I'm watching people--and I expect them wrong, that's why I'm presenting this to you is because you have a lot of experience with this and have tried different types of hiking--but it's like, if there's something that I keep around just in case, right, in case something terrible happens or whatever that I don't use it on a daily basis, and so it starts becoming one of those things that you could imagine getting rid of. And then you're like, "But when you need it, you need it." And so it seems like that is what I worry about when people talk about barely having first aid kits and shit like that, you know, or the kind of gear that if like the weather gets a lot worse unexpectedly--because it seems to me that if you have this very minimalist setup that works for most days but then it doesn't work for like the sudden really bad weather days--It doesn't seem like it's a good enough piece of gear. But, maybe that is being taken into consideration and I'm just being annoyed at people or like retro actively defending the fact that I used to carry this ridiculously heavy bag and I injured my chest with it once when I was like 28. I don't know. Carrot 24:48 Yeah, that's the thing is if your pack is too heavy it will injure you, and that will ruin your hike. So, it doesn't matter what emergency preparedness stuff you're carrying, like the emergency is that you ruined your hike and you have to get off trail and your hike is ruined. So, the thing is things are knowable. Like the world is knowable. Like when you go to drive your car you know what's likely to go wrong. And you know what would be a freak accident that you're not going to prepare for, like the stuff you have in your car. Like my car burns oil, so I carry oil. I carry coolant just because my car is old. I carry jumper cables. It's winter, so I carry a sleeping bag, you know, because I'm in Alaska, and I have an old car. These are the things that are likely to go wrong. I don't carry anything for if I get struck by lightning because there's not--I mean, if I lived like in the high mountains in Colorado in July, I would have to consider lightning--but in Alaska it's all central [uninterpretable word], so you don't think about lightning. I don't carry anything for shark attacks. I carry bear spray for a bear. But so, it's just knowing what's likely to happen versus freak accidents that don't make sense to be prepared for. So, people might not carry a generic first aid kit, but they do carry supplies for all of the medical problems that actually happen regularly. Like I don't carry just some generic first aid kit from REI because I don't know what to do if I break my leg. If I break my leg like I need a helicopter, you know? But that would be a real freak accident. That's extremely unlikely to happen. But, what does happen and what can end your hike and does end people's hike a lot are infected blisters, sprained ankles, and things like that. And I carry stuff, and I have treated stuff that like multiple times. And, I always have what I need. Or, like gear failures. Like I carry dental floss with a needle inside, which I learned from riding trails. And that's come in handy. So, I always have...and then things for chafe because chafe happens a lot and can be really painful. So, that can get you off trail. So, people actually, they might not have like, they might not have something for like a trauma wound, which would be like...I don't even know what a trauma wound...I don't even know what I'm saying. But like...or a puncture wound. But, that would be like a real freak accident. But they do have, in my experience, people do have stuff for the things that actually happen, and the same with the weather. Because, the weather in every spot on earth for whatever season you have to be there is knowable. You can research it, you can know what the trends are. Even with climate change, you can know what's likely to happen. You can talk to other hikers. Every long distance trail every year has a Facebook group. And people as they're hiking, will post on that Facebook group. So you can know like, "Oh, I'm climbing to 9000 feet tomorrow. And these people ahead of me say there's ice. I should have microspikes." Or like, "There's a storm coming in, and the people ahead of me say that the river is really swollen and it's gonna be hard to cross so I should like take a day off and wait for the river to go down." So, it's just..it's instead of carrying a bunch of stuff and having no idea where you are or what's happening, and just having all this stuff you just do your research. And like long distance hikers obsessively research when they're on trail because that's all you have to think about all the time. So, as long as--I mean, you can be reckless and not have any of that stuff--but then that will affect your chances of actually finishing, which is what everyone wants to do. Because, you want to have this like fun, full immersion experience. So generally, in my experience, people are prepared even though they don't have like generic first aid kits. Margaret 28:13 No, that makes sense. I think I have a like defensive maximalism, you know? It's not a maximal...Well, I mean, I guess it depends what you're trying to do. Like, it's not a like I'm going hiking and I need a folding saw, you know? Although if I'm gonna go live in the woods for a while, I want a folding saw, but like, you know, it's a very different goal, right? So I guess I wonder... Carrot 28:39 Okay, can I say one more thing? Margaret 28:40 Yeah, yeah, please. Carrot 28:41 They say that you pack your fears. And, so say you're afraid of getting hurt on trail. So you're like, I should bring all this extra stuff. That extra weight will hurt you. So, that's the irony. So that's like the irony in all of it. And the thing is, a lot of people start long distance hiking that way because that's kind of the way we all learned about the outdoors because we're an urban...Humans are urban. Like, humans in the US are urban. We're not little feral creatures that live in the woods. We don't have these like intimate relationships with like what the wind is doing, or like when the poppies are blooming, you know? And so we go out there and we don't have any idea what the fuck is going on or where we are. And so we want to pack our fears. And then as soon as you start a long distance hike every ounce you're carrying hurts. And so all day, every day, all you have to think about is sort of--as you're being like punished for carrying all your fears--all you have to think about is like, "What do I actually need?" And so that's really common for people to start with really heavy packs and then really quickly they're like, "Okay, I know what I really need and what I don't need." And you also start to learn what you as an individual need on trail because everyone is different. Everyone has like a different sort of comfort zone. So, it's a process because we're not...We're urban. We're like, we don't know what the fuck is going on in nature. Margaret 30:06 Well, I think a lot of the outdoorsy type folks will also over pack, but kind of in a different way. But it's more of the like...it's not thru-hiking. It's the like bushcraft version. It's the like, I'm gonna go build up a cabin version, you know? Which, I think is overkill for most people. Like most people, when they're imagining like disaster scenarios and the escape from disaster scenarios you don't need to go build a log cabin in the woods. You need to like get to a state where they're not trying to kill you for being trans or whatever. And it is a different thing. So, I guess I take back my own caveat. Carrot 30:42 Yeah, I think long distance hikers love to make fun of bushcrafters and probably bushcrafters love to make fun of ultralight backpackers. You know, I was thinking about bushcraft the other day, because I was skiing--or I was trying to ski, because I'm learning so I don't really know what I'm doing--and I was just looking at my gear and looking at my friend's gear and I was like, "Everything we have right now is because of plastic. Like literally everything." And then I was like, "What would this even be like if we didn't have plastic?" I was like, "We'd be wearing like wool, and leather, and like animal skins, and everything would be made out of wood." And then I started thinking about bushcraft. And I was like, "That's kind of what it is." Bushcraft is like outdoor stuff without synthetic materials in a way. Margaret 31:23 Yeah. Carrot 31:24 Which is like an interesting way to think about it, which is really different. It's really different. And so, if your gear is just heavier, there's just different things you can do. It's like just a whole different kind of thing. Margaret 31:35 Yeah, I really. No, that's such a fascinating way of thinking about the difference between bushcraft and hiking and then like...You know, I think it's funny because it's like, if someone decides that they're like, "I'm gonna get into outdoors walking stuff." There's all of these different cultures and ways of looking at it. And you have the bushcraft version and you have the ultralight hiking version and then you have like--traditional backpacking seems like sort of the weird in between--and then you also have the tactical version, where it's like, "This is how you get into enemy territory with like, you know, when you're stuck carrying like 30 pounds of ammunition." or wherever the fuck. And it's like, it's so interesting to me how it breaks down even to different like shelter types, right, like the bushcrafters like--although it does go full circle. I would say that bushcrafters and ultralight hikers are both the ones who are like "A tarp is all I need," or whatever, versus traditional backpacking where you're like, "I want a fucking tent." You know? Carrot Yeah, it's really interesting, our different relationships with nature in this year of our Lord, 2023 in the US. Margaret 32:41 Yeah. And there's ways that people have to think about kind of all of them if they're trying to prepare. Although I can see how you can get lost over preparing in thinking about every single possible thing that could go wrong. If you're traveling in a vehicle, it's a little bit easier to do that. Right? It's a little bit easier to be prepared for every possible contingency or whatever. Carrot 33:02 Can I tell you an interesting story? Margaret 33:04 Yeah. Carrot 33:04 I love thinking about this stuff. So, we we live in a time in human history where we're very urban, the most urban we've ever been, and so a lot of people don't spend much time outdoors at all, which, you know, is like they just can't. Like, they don't have access or there's so many different reasons. And, the people who do spend time outdoors, access it through these really different channels that almost aren't communicating with each other. Margaret Yeeeeah. Carrot 33:31 But, the tactical hunter versus the ultralight backpacker, and it's really interesting, because they've developed outdoors cultures that are so different. Like, in Alaska, for example, there are a lot of grizzly bears, which grizzly bears are dangerous, but they're also very knowable. So, you can kind of get to know grizzly bear culture and then you can do sort of like best practices and your chances of being attacked by a bear become extremely low. And so, depending on what you're doing, different people have ideas about what those best practices are. Margaret 34:04 Bear spray versus 10 millimeter? Carrot 34:07 I mean, bear spray works better. Margaret 34:09 Yeah, no, I know. Yeah. Carrot 34:12 But, for example, a few years ago, I was going on a four day backpacking trip in the Brooks range with some of my friends from Anchorage. And the Brooks range is in the Arctic. It's really remote and ironically, the Grizzlies are much less dangerous up there because the area we were going has no salmon. So, there are much fewer Grizzlies. There are just way fewer Grizzlies. And also, we're north of treeline, so there's no tree cover. And when Grizzlies are dangerous...if you see a grizzly from a distance, and it knows what you are, if it can smell you, it will run away like so fast. But, if you surprise a grizzly at close range, they feel like they have to like defend their honor and that's when they attack. It's like okay, they think it's like a challenge. They're like, "Now I must fight you!" Margaret 34:58 Understandable. Carrot 34:58 So, you want to avoid brush and trees in areas where there are grizzlies like as much as you can, avoid brush and trees. So, the Arctic is north of treeline. So it's a really safe place because there are fewer Grizzlies. And if you see one, it's like really far away and the two of you can just give each other a wide berth, because they're actually very scared. So, I was going on a trip with my friends, who are all from Anchorage, which is actually a very dangerous place because there are tons of grizzlies and like once a year someone dies. But, my friends were like, "Oh my gosh, we're going to the Arctic. What are we gonna do about the Grizzlies?" And I was like "You guys, like it's actually safer there. There's fewer bears." And they're like "We should bring Ursacks," which are these like Kevlar bags that the grizzlies can't bite through. It's like a bear can, but lighter. They're great. They're like, "We should bring Ursacks and we should line Ursacks with the scent proof plastic bags and we should put the Ursacks really far from our camp." And I was like, "We can do all that. But actually, it's like safer there than where we live." Like, hiking the Arctic is safer than going on a day hike in Anchorage, like 20 times safer. And, and I was like, "You guys go on day hikes all the time." Anyway, we went and we were all like super careful. Like, you know, when we set up camp, we would go cook like on a hill over there. And then we would put our food in our Ursack, and we could go put it on a hill over there. And then our tents would be here. And it would be like, you know, we would be up wind of where we cooked and like all these different things. And I was like, "Okay, great, you know, that's fine." And then a few weeks later, I went on a moose hunting trip with my friend Birch, who his whole way of knowing the outdoors is hunting, which is also really common in Alaska. And there were five of us and we were hiking eight miles into this drainage through Willow Brush with pack rafts and then we were going to get the moose and we were gonna pack raft out. So we got in and he got the moose. And we processed it. And you know, we were covered in blood. The pack rafts were covered in blood. Like, everything was covered in blood. And, we had these huge pieces of moose in cotton game bags that were soaked in blood like piled our pack rafts. We got we got to camp...Oh, no one has bear spray. I'm the only one with bear spray. You know? They have rifles. But, what good is a rifle gonna to do when you're in your sleeping bag? You know what I mean? Margaret 34:58 Yeah, totally. Carrot 35:29 Like that's when the bear could come for your blood or whatever. And, we get to camp and we like take these huge pieces of moose and lay them out on the gravel bar just overnight out in the open. And we all have our tent set up. And I was like, "Hey, Birch, do you ever use an Ursack?" And he was like, "What's an Ursack?" And, our moose hunt was in an area with way more Grizzlies. And there was brush everywhere and we saw like three grizzlies. And it was just so funny, because they weren't concerned at all. And, I think part of it is that guns give people this like false sense of confidence around bears, even though with bears like things happen really fast and you need something you can grab really fast. If you need to be like a sharpshooter, it's not very accessible, like you need something that anyone can use and another part of it....Go ahead. Margaret 38:07 Also, if you shoot a bear--I'm not speaking from experience, I'm speaking from reading about this-there's been a bunch of studies that shooting bears is not a particularly effective way of stopping bears in the short term and pepper spray or bear spray is very effective. Like, even if a bear is charging and I manage to shoot it that doesn't mean I'm safe. Carrot 38:25 Yeah, you have to have a certain gun. I don't know that much about guns. You have to have a certain gun and you shoot it in a certain place. So, the odds of all that happening like extremely fast...Whereas bear spray, you spray them in there. [makes a shrieking sound like a bear that's been maced] "It's burning!" You know, and then they run away. Margaret 38:41 Have you had to do that? Have you ever sprayed a bear? Carrot 38:43 No. Margaret 38:44 Okay. Carrot 38:45 But, I've been around a lot of bears, but I haven't yet had to spray one. Margaret 38:49 I'm glad. I'm just curious. Anyway, I interrupted you twice. Please continue. Carrot 38:55 Yeah. So, his conceptualization of what the danger was...Oh! That's the other thing. So, I think part of the reason hunters don't--this is my theory--I think part of the reason hunters don't think about bears is because the guns give them this false sense of confidence, even though bears do sometimes attack hunters. The other thing is bears have bear culture. Like, in different areas, bears learn different things and pass that knowledge on to their cubs. Like, some places, if you do a bear hang, the bear doesn't know what it is. And it can't get it. Other places, bears are really good at getting bear hangs, you know? And, I think that bears know when hunting season is and they know what hunters smell like. That's my theory. Margaret 39:40 And they're like, "I'm staying the fuck away from them. They all have guns." [inflected as a question] Carrot 39:43 I don't know if that's true, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. And that that's one reason that hunters don't have to take the same precautions. Margaret 39:50 I mean, it's sort of interesting because guns are notorious for a false sense of security. But, in this case it's like, even though it's sort of a false sense of security, it's not the right way to handle a bear, but maybe that kind of like confidence of walking through the woods with a group of people and doing your thing, maybe that's a better way to live. Like... [trailing off laughing] Carrot 40:18 There's also...so when an animal is a predator, it moves differently walking than when an animal is a prey animal, and hunters move the way predators move, and hikers tend to move, I don't know, all sorts of ways, but hunters move the way predators move. And so that could be something that communicates to the bear that these are hunters. And to be more scared, I don't know. Margaret 40:35 No, that's so interesting. I'm really fascinated by these different ways of interacting with the forest. Because, it's like, you know, I live rurally. But, it doesn't actually...it provides me access to nature in that, I can walk out my door, and there's a lot more trees than houses. I can see one house, and I can see 10,000 trees, you know? But, there's also just like private land everywhere. So, I actually can't go hiking out my door. I'm as far away from hiking here as as if I lived in a--not a big city, but a medium city. You know, when I want a good scenic five mile hike, I drive an hour. It's not as many miles, because rural roads take you forever to get anywhere. But, it's just such a different way of interacting with... And then, all like folks around here are a lot more likely to drive down with ATVs, and go like ATVing and shit like that rather than specifically go hiking. But, they are still people who are interacting with the woods constantly. And so, in my mind, I feel like I'm trying to find...I'm on this quest to find out which like culture's way of interacting with the wild and specifically around gear honestly, is the best for the preparedness person. And this is obviously going to be completely different depending on what your fucking threat model is, where you live, what your goals are. But, I think I'm subconsciously doing it. I'm trying to be like, "Do I want to be like a hunter? Do I want to be like a tactical bro? Do I want to be like an ultralight hiker? Do I want to be like an oogle? Like, you know, which method? Carrot 42:16 So, I have a lot of thoughts about what you just said. I think this would be my strategy, which may be the path I'm taking. Margaret 42:22 That is the goal of me asking you things, is to find your strategy. Carrot 42:25 Yeah. Because I also believe--well I don't know if this is exactly what you believe--but I think that all supply chains and infrastructure, and grids, and things are going to collapse in the next few decades. Margaret 42:39 Yeah...[On a] long enough timeline: Yeah. Carrot 42:42 I think if one learns the strategy of ultralight backpacking, which relies heavily on really high tech gear--that is currently being manufactured using these intensive processes that rely on supply chains and things--if one learns ultralight backpacking and hunting sort of strategy and gear, and like bushcraft, I think between those three skill sets, one would have the best chance of creating this like hybrid model for like, say, if you needed to walk across the country. Like in The Last of Us in their walk across the country--so, their world is like 20 years post collapse of supply chains manufacturing, like all those different things--I don't think they're carrying the right gear. So, knowing what they more or less, like guessing what they had access to, some changes I would have made is: They're wearing like leather boots. I think Ellie's wearing...What are they called? Margaret 43:45 Maybe Chucks? But I can't remember? Carrot 43:47 Yeah, Chuck Taylors. Margaret 43:49 I think. I can't remember. Yeah. Carrot 43:51 Like, if they have access to shoes, obviously, which maybe is unrealistic, but in the show, they have access to shoes. I would get some running shoes, or trail runners. And then, their backpacks are made of looks like heavy canvas. And, I would get a backpack made of a lighter weight material. And then I would line it with something like a trash bag to make it waterproof. Because, that's what I do now. I just carry a trash bag folded up, and I use that. And then, they weren't filtering their water. And also, all of their layers seemed to be cotton, which eventually, you know, in the future, we'll get to a point where we'll just have like natural materials again. But, if you still have access to a cotton like denim jacket, you can probably still find synthetic layers which are much smarter when it's cold and wet. So, I would have them wearing synthetic layers if they could. Margaret 44:46 That makes a lot of sense to me. Okay, but I've read--again, I expect I'm wrong and I'm running things past you for this reason--I've read that one of the reasons that people wear trail runners, but they sort of expect them to not last, necessarily even a full thru-hike, as compared to like hiking boots, which are expected to last like multiple thru-hikes. Am I wrong about a durability difference between these types of shoes? Carrot 45:15 You're right. So, the trade off is with hiking boots, they last a long time, but they turn your feet to hamburger if you're walking very far day after day. So, in The Last of Us they were walking. I mean, just like guessing by like how far they walk, they were walking all day, every day, day after day. So, in that circumstance, the hiking boots would last, but they would destroy your feet and maybe keep you from being able to continue on your journey. So, I guess the question would be...Like, the way I long distance hike right now, I change my trail runners every 400 miles because that's when the cushion gets more compact. And so, they don't provide as much cushion. So, I'll get more foot pain. But, if I was in a situation where I didn't have access to a lot of trail runners, I would just wear them for longer. And then,...I guess it would be a question of, can you eventually get to a point where your feet have adjusted to leather boots so that you can do that many miles day after day? Because, in traditional backpacking, people just didn't do as many miles day after day. Or, there's also you know, there's a lot of different... Margaret 46:26 Maybe they're only going eight miles a day? Carrot 46:29 But they went really far. I don't remember, but... Margaret 46:32 I think that's movie magic. Carrot 46:34 But, they went from the East Coast to Wyoming so... Margaret 46:37 I think they break down and they get most of the way out in car and then they break down. Anyway. Sorry. Please continue. Carrot 46:43 Yeah, maybe they were taking lots of breaks. Okay, so there is an alternative, I think, in this scenario. So, in Mexico, there are people, indigenous people, who are long distance runners and long distance walkers. I don't know if it's more than one tribe, or...I don't know. But, that book Born to Run talks about these people a lot. Margaret 47:04 The barefoot... Carrot 47:04 But yeah. So, they make sandals out of old tires. And, that's what they wear. Because sandals...So, the thing about hiking 20 miles a day, day after day, is it's less like backpacking, more like running a marathon. So, you want to think "Would I run a marathon in this?" because whatever you're wearing will rub you to death. So, boots will rub you to death. So, say trail runners aren't accessible, if you made sandals out of old tires, those are so minimalist that they might not rub you to death the way boots would, but you would be able to make new pairs and they would last a long time. So, actually, people in Mexico have maybe figured it out. Like, that might be the answer is sandals made out of tires. Margaret 47:47 I consciously believe you. But, I've been wearing boots my entire life. And in my mind, they're like...I mean, in my head, the compromises that I used to wear lace up steel toed boots and now I wear like tactical boots with a zipper down the side that are like, mostly mesh, and stuff. And in my mind, I'm like, these are clearly the perfect boots. These are clearly the best boots for every situation, how could they possibly be bad? But, I accept that you have the experience and you're probably right. My brain won't accept it. Carrot Would you want to a run a marathon in them? Margaret 48:26 I don't have the lung capacity to run. I have never been able to. So, I can't. That is a meaningless thing for me, right? Because, I've never been able to run. I mean, I can run, right? But, I like I lose....I can't imagine. But, I don't know. I mean, I used to just...whatever, I used to just be an idiot and kind of an asshole. And so I would just be like, "Oh, whatever. Like why are people complaining? Just toughen up. Just wear steel toed shoes all the time." Whatever. Bullshit. And, I'm no longer on that page. But, in my mind, I'm like... [makes grumpy noises and trails off] Carrot 49:01 Yeah, so I have two more thoughts about footwear. One is..so the reason backpackers used to always wear boots is because their gear was so heavy. So, when I go hunting--I actually had to buy my first pair of hiking boots, because if I'm carrying a 60 pound pack--you know how we occasionally roll our ankles when we walk and it's not a big deal? It doesn't really sprain your ankle really. But, if you're carrying a 60 pound pack, it's like much more likely to sprain your ankle. So, that's the point of boots. So, when I'm hunting, I only walk eight miles a day and it still hurts my feet, because the boots really hurt my feet. But, it keeps me from worrying about spraining my ankle if I roll it. Whereas, with the backpacking gear that exists now, it's not as heavy, so you can roll your ankle without spraining it, so you can wear trail runners. So, in this scenario, if your pack was really heavy, you probably would want to wear boots and then you would just compromise on how many miles per day you could walk, and your feet would be in pain. Margaret 49:56 That makes sense. Carrot 49:57 And then my other thought...but, hopefully in this scenario, you would be able to create this sort of hybrid kit with all your knowledge of like hunting, bushcrafting, and ultralight backpacking and the materials, we still have access to that your pack, maybe your pack wouldn't be crazy heavy. And, then my other thought is: So, in Mexico, there are people who run long distances who create these sandals out of old tires, which is a resource that will be around for a bit. And then in North America, or like further north North America where it's colder, traditionally, people had footwear that they made that they could walk long distances in that also was warmer, like things like moccasins and different...more like, flexible comfy footwear that also wasn't a boot. So, I think even if you didn't have access to trail runners, I don't think the only option would be boots for their durability. I think you could make like some sort of show. Yeah, that's my theory. Margaret 50:54 No, no, no, this is really interesting. Because, I'm like, imagining like the ultimate setup, in my mind, would be like, nonshiny materials, because in my head, I've heard it referred to as like, outdoors gear being either like tactical or technical, and sort of an aesthetic difference in a lot of ways. Like, everyone's wearing fleece, but some people are wearing camo fleece, and some people are wearing, you know, bright colored fleece or whatever, right? Except for me. I'm walking around in a fucking hoodie. And, this is...I'm slightly smarter than that. That's not true, the last time we went hiking, I was just in my Carhart coat over a hoodie. But, it also wasn't long distance. So, it doesn't really matter. Carrot 51:39 I mean, if you know there's not going to be cold rain, you probably won't get hypothermia. Margaret 51:45 Yeah. Yeah. So ,if you, I guess you're already north. If you had to leave on foot, you would be going for sort of a hybrid setup? I guess if it depends on the situation. Now, I'm already answering for you in my head. Never mind. Carrot 51:45 Yeah, let's say I had to walk into Canada, for example, which it would be really easy to sneak...I'm not allowed in Canada. But, it would be really easy to sneak...Because, there's one protest in particular on my record that they don't like from 2003. And then, there's all the like misdemeanor train stuff for my 20s. But, that's old enough that they don't they don't care about it. But, they really don't like this protest thing So, they just don't let me in. But, it would be really easy to sneak into Canada at the Alaska-Canada-border. So, let's say that's what I wanted to do. Well, the thing about Alaska is, there are a lot of really big rivers to cross. So, you would have to consider that like, would you either carry a pack raft, which would add weight, like between the pack raft, and the paddle, and like a PFD, you know, that would add like 10-15 pounds. Margaret 52:16 What's that? What's a PFD? A personal flotation device? Carrot 52:54 Yeah, just like a life jacket. Yeah. Or, would you, you know, just build a raft every time you got to a massive river and just case by case basis troubleshoot trying to cross these rivers. So, and then another consideration would be, so wherever you are, if you decide to go on a long journey, like where you are, for example, you'd want to know how the plant communities change at different elevations. That would help you plan your route. Like, if you were like, "At this one elevation, there's this really thorny brush that's impossible to get through and really terrible." And so, as you were passing through that elevation, you want to find like a road, or a trail, or something that goes through it as you're making your route. And then, if you were like, "Well, at this elevation, it's like this open forest, it's really nice." So then, you would plan your route as much as you could through the landscape that was easier walking. Or, you would be like, "There's these old roads." Like, Alaska doesn't have many roads, but like other places have a lot of old logging roads and mining roads. So, like finding those, you know, and then planning your route. And then, for me, it's pretty rainy in the summer, so, I guess I'd want to have a rain jacket, and rain pants, and trash bags to keep all my stuff dry, and good synthetic layers that were warm, even when they were wet. If I have a down sleeping bag, I'd want to make sure to have like really good trash bag waterproofing system for my sleeping bag in my backpack so it would stay dry. And then, as far as like, fuel goes, I guess it depends on what's available, maybe backbreaking fuel isn't available. Maybe I'm just making fires. And, the challenge would just be drying out if it happens to just rain for two months straight, like figuring out when I can dry out, which maybe it would be a matter of like making fires if the rain never stops. So, staying dry to prevent hypothermia would probably be like the biggest challenge, and then getting over these big rivers. And then for food, if backpacking food wasn't available, I have no idea how i would survive. I think, Okay, this is what I would do. I would have...Let's say that things have collapsed to the point where no one is regulating hunting. So, for example, like, as an Alaskan resident, even though I'm an Alaskan resident, like, I can't hunt seal. The only people who can hunt seal and whale are like, people in native communities in really specific areas. And so, I can't hunt seal, but realistically, if one is to live off the land in Alaska, you're gonna get most of your calories from fat from sea mammals. So, I would need to have figured that out in advance. Like, I would need like seal oil, and berries and dried salmon and dried meat, but I would need a lot of fat to get most of my calories from because there aren't any carbs up here that you can eat. Yeah. I think that would be my strategy. Margaret 55:58 Okay. Okay. That all make sense to me. Yeah, in my mind, because where I live is like, if I had to walk to Canada, I would be skirting back and forth across roads. On the other hand, maybe all the bridges across all the rivers is exactly where they would like, you know, the militias would be laying ambushes or whatever, you know. So actually, maybe all that stuff, but it never even occurred to me that there's something called a packraft until today. It's a neat concept. Carrot 56:27 You could bring a pool floatie. Margaret 56:29 Yeah, yeah, totally. Carrot 56:30 Just raid a CVS or a Walgreens. Margaret 56:35 I'm planning...I'm saving up to buy a freeze dryer. This is my like wingnut prepper thing that I really want. They're like, they started about $2,500 for home ones. And then, I can just give everyone backpacking food forever. Carrot 56:54 Cool. Margaret 56:55 But, it would work better if I was combining with, you know, honestly, if you're in a city and around people who dumpster dive, that's where a freeze dryer shines. Take your free food and preserve it forever. Or, if you garden a lot, or grow a lot of food. Okay, well. There's so much I want to talk to you about, but I think we're kind of running down on time. Carrot 57:18 We've almost figured it out. Margaret 57:19 I know. It's a combo of all of the...You have to multiclass between ultralight and hunter and then you're pretty much good. And with a little bit of bushcrafter, which I feel like the hunter is a little bit close to. Go ahead. Carrot 57:34 There's definitely a lot of skills I don't have that would be useful in this scenario. Like, I can't snare a rabbit. That would be really useful. I guess I would want to be hunting, but like, I don't know if I would have enough bullets or like, what kind of gun or like...Would I have like a bow and arrow? I don't know enough about hunting to know what kind of hunting I would be doing, or if I would just be carrying enough seal oil and dried moose meat to make the whole journey. So, I don't know. I don't know about that bit. Margaret 58:06 Yeah, no, I basically have already decided that my veganism lasts until it's like me or the animal. You know? And I actually believe very strongly in that...Like, I actually don't think there's anything ethically wrong with hunting at all. I just have no personal interest in an eating it. But...For anyone who's listening is wondering why vegan says that, in this case, I believe that you're not raising the animal in captivity, it lives free, whatever, people eat things, that's fine. This is the thing we get the most angry people writing about is whenever we talk about either veganism or nonveganism, people get really upset about, and vegans always hate me because I'm like a self hating vegan or whatever, because I'm like, I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with eating meat. Anyway, I just avoid thinking about all that stuff, which doesn't work because then I can't just be like, magically after the apocalypse, I like...I'm a decent shot. So at least I have that. Right? But, I don't know, fucking how to stalk, or dress, or cook. You know? But I'll just magically learn it in a survival situation. That's always the best time to learn. [Said very sarcastically] Carrot 59:19 Yeah, they say that people learn fastest when you're like a little bit stressed out. So also, you live in an area where you can grow a lot of foods. So, like you wouldn't be as reliant. In Alaska, you can't grow grains. You can't grow beans, like you can't. Traditionally, people lived off animal fat for most of their calories. Margaret 59:41 Totally. Carrot 59:43 I think it would sort of like quickly revert to that like, "Okay, we have a lot of fish." But, where you are, it would make sense to like grow a lot of like grain and stuff and that would be really good food to have. Margaret 59:56 Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna have so many freeze dried potatoes. A fucking entire basement full of freeze dried potatoes. What could go wrong? Well, is there anything? Last last thoughts? Or you know, do you want to talk about, you want to advertise your books again? Or, talk about the stuff that you run or where people can find you? Carrot 1:00:16 Sure. I'll I'll talk about this. Can I talk about this book, this novel I've been working on? Margaret 1:00:21 Yeah. Carrot 1:00:23 So I think... Margaret 1:00:25 But don't spoil it. Carrot 1:00:25 Okay, well, no spoilers. It's been really fun to think about, like everything we've been talking about, like if someone is on this long journey, like what would they have access to? What would still be around? How would they survive? So, that's kind of what I try to do. And, I kind of skip over the dark collapsing bits to get to the long journey part, because I think that's what's like fun and interesting. And, I think it gives me a sense of hope to try to be like, okay, what, what will things actually look like? This is one reason I love The Last of Us so much, too, is because you got to see how they like imagine like, oh, what would be left in a mall? Like a shut down mall. What stores would have been raided? What would still be left? Like, what materials would people have access to? And so, I think that's really fun. And, she does have a little dog. She has a chihuahua, that rides in her bike pannier, and nothing bad ever happens to the Chihuahua. Margaret 1:00:39 That's good. Carrot 1:00:49 Nothing bad ever happens to the dog. So, that's great. [The transcriber does not know if Carrot is being earnest or not and has not seen The Last of Us to discern whether this is a sarcastic statement or not] And, I think some people I think, maybe think thinking about this stuff is kind of dark, but I find it really comforting. Margaret 1:01:32 I agree. It's, yeah. Yeah, there's so many reasons. Carrot 1:01:39 I also, you know, I've read too, that in a survival situation, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what skills we have. What matters is like our ability to organize with other people, beca

Episode Summary Brooke and Margaret talk about every thing that went wrong this last month, and some good things. Sort of. They talk about more chemical spills, storing water and water filtration, tornadoes, more news on anti trans bills, inflation, super fun fungi, not fun at all guy Trump and his indictment, and how a drone (or satellite phone) could save your life and also make you a vampire. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript This Month in the Apocalypse: March, 2023 Brooke 00:16 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying ,your podcast for it feels like the end times. This is the March]April installment of our segment This Month in the Apocalypse. I'm Brooke Jackson and with me today is the infamous Margaret Killjoy. Margaret 00:30 I'm infamous now, what did I do? Brooke 00:33 Well known for being famous? Oh wait, that's not what that word means. Margaret 00:37 No. It means famous for bad. Brooke 00:41 Well, bad means good. [Laughing] Brooke 00:46 You're bad. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. Before we dive into today's episode, we'd like to share a little jingle from another pod on our network. Brooke 01:08 And we're back. Margaret. How are you feeling today? Margaret 01:11 I have a toothache and I'm grouchy. How are you? Brooke 01:15 I'm doing okay. I have intermittent sunshine. Margaret 01:19 Oh, does that mean it's almost not Pacific Northwest winter? Brooke 01:25 Well, it's intermittent with like super heavy rains and or hail. Margaret 01:29 Oh. The weather is much nicer where I'm at. Brooke 01:32 Yeah, it's Oregon doing its 'hold my beer' weather. Margaret 01:37 Well, do you wanna hear about some shit that happened this this month? Brooke 01:43 I definitely do. Margaret 01:44 A ton of shit happened this month. It's always funny to do these, because there's like all of these huge events. There's like one huge event a week and then it's like they're already out of our collective attention spans. So, on March, 26th, a pipe broke at the Trensio PLC chemical plant near the Delaware River. This is the the Philadelphia spill, right? It spilled ethyl acrylate, methyl methacrylate, and butyl acrylate into a creek called Otter Creek. Between eight and twelve thousand gallons of this stuff that is used...It's basically synthetic latex or it's like the precursors, I believe, to synthetic latex. Brooke 02:21 That's a lot of 'lates' spilled. Margaret 02:24 Yeah. And one of them is double meth. But, it actually has nothing to do with meth. I'm sorry. So, it ended up not being....well, it was a big deal. But, it was almost a big deal as in like the entire city of Philadelphia or rather the eastern half of Philadelphia and like millions of people were going to be like completely fucked and out of drinking water. And so we had this fun scare. Not me. I'm not in Philadelphia. People had this fun scare where the city of Philadelphia sent out like, "Oh shit, don't drink the water alert." And then later, they sent out a, "Wait, it's okay to drink it until midnight on Monday. You better fill up some jugs." And it was just like...but during the OH SHIT scare, right? Like there was just like, no fucking bottled water on any shelves immediately. Right? And in the end, the city's water was not impacted. And this isn't like a coincidence. It wasn't like, "Oh, oops, our bad, nothing was actually wrong." It was actually like credit where it's due, it was the coordination of the Department of Public Works and some other folks. And they like got their shit together. And they closed off the water treatment plant that was bringing in water from the river and all that shit. And do you want to know how to get butyl acrylate out of your water in case you have to? Brooke 02:38 Do I want to know? Margaret 03:44 You can't. Brooke 03:48 Okay, so I already know how. Margaret 03:49 I mean....Okay, I'm gonna say you can't and then I'm gonna go into more detail. Because water filtration is something I did a bunch of research about this week. And it's something that's like always been sort of on my radar as a weird prepper. Chemical contamination in water is one of the hardest things to filter out. The way it's handled on an industrial level, is some shit with some fucking little tiny goober plants that eat the chemicals or whatever. I don't have the name of it in front of me because I'm not good at my job. And it's not something that people are doing on a home scale. There are other ways that people can minimize the chemicals in their water. Overall, when you're trying to filter water, chemical contamination is the hardest thing to get rid of. It is much easier to get rid of heavy metals. It is much, much easier to get rid of protozoa, bacteria, viruses, all kinds of things, right? You're not boiling away your butyl acylate. And, you're not filtering it out directly. However, through the process of adsorption, which is absorption but backwards. 'Ad' instead of 'Ab.' Basically, the charcoal filter that are like in your like fucking Brita water filters and stuff like that, that is closest to the DIY version. They are not rated to do this. Do not drink this shit thinking it's safe because some girl on the internet said....Well actually I said it's not safe. But overall, removing chemicals from water of the various DIY filtration methods, passing things through an activated carbon filter is more effective, because more of the various particles stick to that than like most of the...it's kind of funny, because overall, like the kinds of filters that you usually want for like hardcore stuff are not home filters, they're like, like camping filters and stuff, but it's just like not actually the case with chemical stuff. But overall... Brooke 05:46 Okay, but what if I doubled Brita it? If I just if I just pour through the Brita filter twice? Is that? Is that enough? Margaret 05:52 Like, if I was going to die of thirst, and I had some water from the Delaware River, what I would do is I would filter it over and over again, maybe through different charcoal filters. And then I would hope that...and I would only do this because dying of thirst is more immediate of a problem than dying of like whatever poison that you're getting through this shit. But, there is like some advice that I want to throw out there about how to prepare for this kind of disaster. This is obviously not the first time some of these similar acylates. I can't remember which of these ones. I can't remember if it was butyl acrylate or ethyl acylate was one of the main things that spilled in Ohio. So, it's something that is like increasingly on people's threat analysis, right? The main way is to have water stored ahead of time. The main ways to find different sources of water. And so, one thing that's like worth knowing is that water does not really in and of itself go bad. Water, like, has stuff in it, that goes bad, right? But if water is like, correctly treated and sealed properly, it does not itself go bad. What I would recommend to people is if you're lazy and easy go get several gallons of bottled water and just keep it around. So, like worst case scenario of some drinking water during time of crisis. Because you can't boil advisory this shit, right? And then the other thing is, if you want to store your own water....oh, and then that water you get, you should replace every two years or so. Just because even though it doesn't go bad, the plastic that it's in tends to degrade. They tend to be clear bottles, and you keep it out of heat and sun and it'll last longer. Go ahead... Brooke 07:31 Is it not just refilling the containers? Because I have like a bunch of one gallon water jugs that I'll you know, put on the garden and then refill. But should I replace the jug itself too in those cases? It's not a long term jug. It's like the whatever store brand in a gallon jug. Margaret 07:52 Well, so it's funny, because a store brand gallon if you never open it and don't fill it yourself and it's sealed, is a reasonable thing to store for several years. Especially if you keep it out of the sun, and you keep it in a cool place, because then the plastic degrades less into the water. But if you're filling up your own jugs, especially if they're clear jugs, and especially if you've ever drank out of them, like directly, you just replace the water fairly often. And you like look for smells and growth and all that shit and keep it in a cool dark place. I don't keep store bought water, I keep five gallon jerry cans, and then I refill them. People say to do it every six months or a year. I do it closer to every year. But just having enough to have like emergency drinking water on hand during the time of a crisis where it takes time for water to come back online, or for you to set up a way to get it from elsewhere is something I recommend to people. That's what I got about the Philly spill. Unless you have other questions about water storage? Brooke 08:54 I feel like we could do a whole thing on water right now, but I'm not going to dump into it. I do have several kinds of different water storage. I have some of the little one gallons from the store and I have some, you know, five gallon heavy duties. And I have some big barrels of water and a whole set up. But, I'm curious if....You mentioned something at the very beginning about a like boil water advisory or something like that. And is that a common thing for other people? Because I feel like that's a common thing for me where I live, that we have those often enough that I've had to deal with it and learn how to do that on a regular basis. But, in other places, is that normal? I guess probably not. Margaret 09:32 No, it happens a lot in the US now. It either didn't used to, or it used to be more insulated from it. But, I've been in a bunch of different cities where they've had boil advisories for various lengths of times. If the boil advisories around like bacterial stuff, which I think is what most of them are, I am now speaking off the cuff. You can also filter it, but not with your Brita. You can filter it with a camping style filter if it's a protozoa are bacterial worry, as long as the micron size is like .2 or so, you're fine. If it's a viral worry, which is almost never the case in the continental United States, your micron size needs to be .02. Instead of .2. Maybe it's .01. It needs to be rated for viruses, which is rarer, and mostly camping filters don't do that. Brooke 10:25 Yeah, okay. That makes sense. Well, speaking of water stuff: air. Margaret 10:35 We need that. Brooke 10:36 Yeah, we do. Just all the elements. Weird weather. Have you heard about the tornadoes that that were happening over this last weekend? Margaret 10:45 Yeah, there's too many of them. Brooke 10:47 Yeah, It's kind of wild. So, as we're recording this, it's early April. We just got through the first weekend of April and there were at least 50 separate tornadoes that hit the American Midwest, South, and parts of the East Coast. They hit like a bunch of states, Arkansas, Missouri, Tennessee, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey. There were four separate tornadoes in New Jersey alone, which I don't think of New Jersey as being a tornado prone state. But, maybe that's just me not knowing things. But, they're also expected to have more tornadoes coming up by the time you hear this they hopefully have come and gone. But, they're supposed to affect as many as 16 states and all in the next couple of days. With the most serious risks two parts of Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa and Northwest Illinois. [Said like "Ili-noise"] I watched a video.... Margaret 11:42 What was the last state? Brooke 11:44 Illi-noise. Margaret 11:47 Never heard of that state. Brooke 11:48 Ilii-noooise. I refuse. Also, I'm sorry, I said Arkansas wrong. It's Ar-Kansas, Ar-Kansas. Tornadoes. So sorry for my mispronunciations there. [Laughing]. Margaret 12:05 Our-Kansas as compared to the Their-Kansas. Brooke 12:10 Yeah, I watched a fun video of there's someone who was trying to film a tornado with her phone. And the tornado came up and slammed into the building that she was in. And the phone kept filming, but it was just like, debris and shit flying around and just total chaos. Margaret 12:29 We might have different definitions of the word fun. Did she survive? Brooke 12:33 Yeah, she did. Margaret 12:34 Okay. Brooke 12:35 Okay, I think she got pretty well banged up and bloodied and stuff, broken glass and all that. And she posted to whatever social media, the video, and the comment of "If there's a tornado coming, don't try and film it. Get cover. I had to learn it the hard way." Margaret 12:53 Yeah. Brooke 12:53 Which makes you feel like it's not someone who's maybe in a tornado prone area, because I get the instinct like, "Oh, I'm gonna film that tornado." But not a great idea. Margaret 13:01 I mean, it's funny because like, after selfies became such a thing, like more national parks, we're seeing more...or like more hiking places were seeing more falling deaths as people climbed to try and get selfies on precarious rocks and all that stuff. And I'm not above all of that. Like, I can't tell you that I wouldn't try and film a tornado. I don't know. I can tell you it's not a good idea. But, that doesn't relate one-to-one to what I would do. Brooke 13:25 There was documentary that came out in like the 90s. And there was some really famous people who did it. It was all about tornadoes, and they chased them around and we're trying to catch data or something like that. Margaret 13:35 Twister? Brooke 13:36 Oh, yeah, that one. That one. It's a documentary, right? Margaret 13:39 Yeah, sure. Tornadoes aren't real. It's funny that people keep spreading this theory of tornadoes, but I've never seen a tornado. Have you seen a tornado. Brooke 13:52 I've seen some little dust spinneys. Margaret 13:55 Yeah, no. Tornadoes are fake. You heard it here first. Brooke 14:00 But wait, then Margaret. How did all the houses get destroyed and all of the things that are left in the wake of so called tornadoes? What did it. Margaret 14:09 Did your parents not raise you right? Like, do you not know what the Big Bad Wolf is? Brooke 14:14 So, all the damage is fake too? Margaret 14:15 No, it was done by the Big Bad Wolf. Brooke 14:19 Oh! Margaret 14:20 Who huffed and puffed and blew all the houses. Yeah, this is.... Brooke 14:24 I didn't think he was that big. I didn't think he was big enough to blow over apartment buildings and stuff. Margaret 14:29 Yeah, I mean there's no reason why her couldn't. There's like a bunch of them. They stand on each others' backs. Brooke 14:34 But, he couldn't blow down the brick house that the smart pig built so.... Margaret 14:38 No, correct. Brooke 14:39 So, I feel like he shouldn't be able to knock down all the concrete buildings and stuff that we see. Margaret 14:45 Well, actually okay like, to go back to actually believing in tornadoes, brick houses and concrete houses are like remarkably more resilient against.... Brooke 14:54 Did you just waffle on tornadoes? Was that just a giant tornado waffle? Margaret 14:58 Yeah. I did. I couldn't keep the bit up, because I got really excited about the fact that brick houses and concrete houses are remarkably more weatherproof than other houses, which it's one of the things that matters about understanding tornadoes, right, is that, like a lot of things, they impact poor people substantially more and most of the...it takes a much more powerful tornado. I've spent a while this week reading about tornado classifications. It takes a much more powerful tornado to tear down stick built house...What's the word I'm looking here for? Drywall, and two by fours and shit, then taking down like a trailer, right, that a lot of people don't have as much money live in. Those are easily destroyed by tornadoes. Drywall and studs, are a little bit harder. And then when you get into like brick houses and shit, you start getting houses that are like substantially more weather resistant. And, there's going to be remarkable class things about that. And like the most damage you hear, and the most deaths you hear about during tornadoes tend to be like trailer parks and shit. And it fucking sucks. It sucks that it impacts poor people more. Brooke 16:02 Yeah, for sure. One small happy story that came out of the tornadoes from last weekend anyway, is that there's more than half a dozen Ukrainian refugees who were living in Minneapolis, who when they heard about the tornado damage, volunteered to drive down to Mississippi and help out with the tornado relief efforts. Margaret 16:22 That's nice. That's better than... at the start of the story I was expecting it to be like, they left the war zone and then died in America from climate change weather. Brooke 16:35 Nope, they're here and they're refugees of the war, and they're going to help Americans. So that's pretty dope of them. Margaret 16:43 Well, speaking of good things...nope. I was just gonna talk about trans bills. There's really nothing good here. Brooke 16:50 Trans people. Trans people good. Margaret 16:52 Yeah, I can give you the trans report. I'm still here, still gay. The war on trans people continues. It will probably be about as successful as the war on drugs in that we had a war on drugs and now you can't buy drugs anymore. Or, it'll be like successful war on drugs and lots and lots of people have their lives ruined by it and nothing will be impacted. Well, in this case, to me, there's like literally nothing wrong, like trans people aren't doing anything wrong. Obviously, individual trans people are doing things wrong in the same way that individual everyone is doing something wrong. As of...this is a couple days old. So, already people are going to be like, like I wrote this two days ago and now by the time y'all hear it, who fucking knows. Kentucky's Congress just overrode their governor's veto of one of the worst anti trans bills in the country. Trans kids can't use the right bathrooms in school. Trans kids are forcibly detransitioned. Shit like that. North Dakota's governor...this is actually really interesting to me, these governor people vetoing things are interesting because they are across party lines. Off the top of my head, and again, I wrote this a couple days ago, I think Kentucky's governor's a Democrat and North Dakota is a Republican. And North Dakota's Republican, again, could be a different state, i could be messing all this up, just like knows trans people. So, he was just like, "I can't...What? I can't in good conscience sign this bill that like fucks over my friend." or whatever, you know. So, North Dakota governor vetoed a similar bill and as of...and it's gonna be overridden. And, in North Dakota, teachers can't use the kids correct pronouns unless the kid has a note from their parents that is cosigned by an administrator of the school. And government agencies can't require people, like who work for them, to correctly pronoun their co workers. And so it's just this like government oversight of everything bill that's just like "No, no one's allowed to be like." Like no workplace is able to be like "We're a trans accepting workplace," you know. And then, West Virginia passed a law prohibiting gender affirming care for trans youth. It does have more work arounds than many similar bills. Two doctors and parents all have to sign off before puberty blockers and all those things can be prescribed. So, it's less of a ban and more of like, lots of roadblocks. And it's interesting to me, because in many ways, this is like way better than an outright ban. However, it will be harder to...if we get this like wave of people defeating these trans bills, these ones are going to stick around longer. These ones that are not outright bans. They're much harder to challenge in court, is the theory that I learned from asking someone about it. Brooke 19:43 Yeah, so they put up roadblocks or speed bumps more than roadblocks. Margaret 19:48 Yeah. And a 2017 study says that West Virginia has the highest per capita rate of trans youth in the country. And another study says--and this is the dark thing behind all of this about like denying health care to children---another study says that West Virginia trans youth are three times more likely to attempt to kill themselves than their cisgender peers. So, God forbid we do the thing that all the Medical Association's agree ends that risk. Stopped Clock, the Libertarian Party, is standing up for trans people in some situations. Like some of the state libertarian parties, which tracks, but then again, you also see individual libertarians going on about like, "Well, I'm not paying with my taxpayer money for this degeneracy." And I'm like, "You're not a libertarian. Fuck you." And I'm like, I'm not even...like, whatever. It's just fucking conservatives calling themselves that. Brooke 20:41 I mean, I get why libertarians would come out against all the trans bills because small government. Margaret 20:48 Yeah, yeah, totally. Brooke 20:50 It's consistent with what they believe. But, allegedly, Republicans also believe in small government, but that never pans out that way. Margaret 21:00 That's the state of trans bills. It's bad. That's the state of it. And it's gonna get worse. Brooke 21:04 How much effort and money is being wasted into worrying about trans youth and trying to block that as opposed to real issues that we have going on? Margaret 21:05 I mean, okay, so like, from my point of view, and I think it's a wedge issue. It is specifically designed to...like, the sports thing is designed...it's not because people care about that teenage cis girls get to compete with only teenage cis girls. It is designed to make people angry at trans people. And then that is used as a wedge to then have trans people themselves be the wedge to pull off from LGBTQ, right, and get left with LGB. And you can already see that they like want...in the same way that like Roe v Wade. It's like they're going to come for...and they are already trying to come for birth control and all kinds of other shit too. You know? And they want...probably eventually, they'll get the sodomy laws back and premarital sex and whatever. You know? Handmaid's Tale shit. Brooke 22:08 Let's hope not. Margaret 22:09 And so, but there is this theory that they're gonna die on this hill, because the trans thing doesn't really win elections, because like, most people kind of don't give a shit what other people do with themselves. Like a lot of people give a shit, right, enough that there's all these bills being passed. But like, there's still a majority of United States-ian's who support access to trans health care, including for teenagers. And I won't say across party lines, because the majority of Republicans are opposed to it. But like, overall, you still have this, like people are kind of like "What the fuck is going on? Like this makes no sense?" Like, even the like it kind of icky people. So yeah, that's trans bills. Hooray. Brooke 23:03 Yeah. I just like, I don't want to jump off that topic, because it's so important and affecting so many people that I love, and, you know. This queer person, that is some of the other letters in that acronym is not gonna let go with a T. Trans people are staying here in this alliance. Margaret 23:24 And like, and I think it is worth understanding that like, it is already directly affecting large numbers of people. Entire families are leaving states with anti trans laws that are forcing the detransition of youth, and have to move to other states in order to access health care that keeps their kids alive. And so we're going to see an increasing amount of that. Whereas I would guess, a slightly higher percentage of adults, one aren't as...Trans adults aren't as directly affected yet. And also they might have more agency about staying and fighting. And I want to like just continue to say that I think it is absolutely worth offering full support to both people who choose to stay in dangerous situations to fight and people who choose to leave those situations, and full support to all people who are making either these decisions Brooke 24:13 And to help the people who want to leave the situation, but don't have whatever means or opportunities to do so. Well, I don't know if this is any less evil, as we talk a little bit about our old friend inflation. Margaret 24:34 That's where suddenly money's worth more, right? Brooke 24:38 Close. Really close, Margaret, but the other direction Margaret 24:42 We're worth more as more money. Brooke 24:43 We'll go back to our friend the banana example. Bananas.... Margaret 24:53 I know what inflation is. I'm just being a dick. Brooke 24:57 That's alright. We forgive you. Yeah. All right, inflation is where you can buy fewer bananas with your buck than you could before. Margaret 25:07 But, I want more bananas. Brooke 25:09 Yeah, they're gonna cost you more money. The same bananas are gonna cost you more money. Margaret 25:15 I guess bananas are still dirt cheap. I mean, how much could have banana cost? What? $5? [Margaret laughs] I made a meme. I said a meme. Brooke 25:24 Do you know that you're quoting a thing? Margaret 25:25 Yes. I'm smart. Brooke 25:28 I think she actually says $10 or $20. Margaret 25:30 I dunno, my pop cultural literacy is as literate as she is about finance. Soon enough, it's just gonna be accurate. People are gonna look back at that and be like, "Yeah, no, that's about how much of banana costs. What do you want?" Brooke 25:44 It's funny, because I think it is $10. And that was like 2003, so 20 years ago. So, it's a little less obscene now than it was when she said it. Margaret 25:55 Bananas are the cheapest fruit. This is why I like them so much. Brooke 25:59 I don't think I knew that. Well, your bananas are gonna cost more money or have been costing more money. I had to look it up for one of my other jobs the other day, so I just felt like doing an update on it. So, prices right now, compared to one year ago, are up about 5.5%. And I realize we haven't necessarily talked about what normal inflation looks like. Inflation is is a normal thing that happens in our society. There was a time in history when inflation was not normal, when things did not rapidly increase in price, or really have much of an increase. But that's a normal part of society. And normal inflation is closer to like 3% in a given year. So we're at close to double that with 5.5%. Margaret 26:44 Isn't that still down from what inflation was a year ago? Brooke 26:49 Yeah. So if we compare it from the last two years, so where prices are right now, compared to two years ago, they're up 13% when when we would have only seen maybe a 6% increase under normal inflation or less. So, still more than doubled. But it also depends on which things you look at. Like food is up more like 18% over the last couple of years. Margaret 27:12 Okay. But not important stuff? Brooke 27:16 No, not things that we need to survive, Margaret 27:18 Like TVs? Brooke 27:20 Yeah, of course. And, it's really interesting when I look at the charts of where the inflation is, because it's summer 2020, you know, like, right, as the impacts of all the pandemic shutdowns and supply shortages are starting to hit is when those prices start to do a clear difference in the way inflation hits, you know, goes for being that normal 3% rise to boom, much sharper. Margaret 27:45 What can people do about inflation? Get all their money out of the banks, put it in a cash envelope and put it under their mattress? Brooke 27:51 You know, that's actually going to be the opposite of what you want to do. Margaret 27:54 Yeah, I went that was on purpose again. Brooke 27:56 I know. Yeah, anything you can you can do with your money to have it earn at least some amount of interest, you know, if your bank offers a savings account that has a slightly higher rate of interest, and you could put some more of your money in there, or filter it through maybe a different type of checking account at your bank that perhaps offers a little bit of interest. Generally, interest rates never keep up with inflation. Like I just bought a CD that I think, is at four and a half percent or something like that over the next year? Which Margaret 28:33 What band is it? [Brooke laughs] What's a CD? Brooke 28:42 Yes, people don't know what either kinds of those are anymore. Certificate of Deposit. It's like a really short term investment that's with a guaranteed return on it. It tends to be a very small return. Generally doesn't keep up with inflation, but it's better than not getting any kind of interest. So, unlike a savings account you can't touch, or you can but then you get penalized, you don't get your interest on it. Margaret 29:11 Can I tell you my 'it sounds like a joke,'but is actually my financial strategy? Brooke 29:16 Oh, boy. Sure, you can. I can't promise I won't tease you about it Margaret 29:20 During times of high inflation, feast or famine. The thing that you want is not going to be cheaper tomorrow than today. Brooke 29:28 This is true. Margaret 29:28 So ,holding on to cash right now, I hold is less useful as an overall strategy than investment in the material goods that you expect to be using, whether it's the material goods that you use for your art to turn into things, whether it's like you know, shit you're trying to turn around and sell, or whether it's just tools or even fucking experience....like, kind of in that same way that like nothing's better later. And we're all gonna die one day and we can't control when, I feel like it's like extra true during a...like smoke if you got them, right? But ideally it's like....like I do consciously think about this where I'm like, "Well you know what, a table saw is going to stay useful to me many years from now if I take care of it, and the amount of money that that table saw will cost me is going to be 25% higher in three years," or whatever, you know. But that's only I mean....I don't know. Don't listen to me. I mean, I guess that's the point of the podcast is to listen to us. But don't. Brooke 30:42 You know what's interesting, though, is the economic theory, the economic textbook and stupid fucking Keynesian economics, would would agree with you there that your money is going to become less useful, so you should you should go ahead and spend it now. Margaret 30:53 Hell yeah. But I'm gonna write an economics book called "YOLO." Brooke 30:58 No, Keyne's already did. And should be ceremonially shot in the head. But yeah, I guess. Go ahead and go out and spend all your...No, no, no, I'm not even going to finish this. That's terrible financial advice. Margaret 31:14 I mean, like, hold on to like not die. But like, I don't know. Like, I don't have retirement fund. And I'm not saying like, no one should have a retirement fund. I'm saying I made some decisions in my life about how I was going to live that did not prioritize having a regular job. And I'm like, but I will have a table saw Right? Like, I don't know. Brooke 31:34 There is something to that though, to consider about, you know, purchases you might be making, you know, medium sized purchases, not super large purchases, like cars and whatnot. But yeah, if you need a table saw it might be a better idea to get it sooner rather than later. And it is a durable good. So it's not it's not as consumable. Margaret 31:56 Yeah, four Lamborghinis. Brooke 31:59 Probably not? I don't know what the resale value is on a Lamborghini, but that's probably not going to be worth it. Margaret 32:05 I know a Lamborghini is a car. That's all I got. Brooke 32:11 Okay, all right. Anyway, yeah, inflation continues to suck. Buy some shit, if you have some money to spare because prices are going up. Margaret 32:20 Okay, well in other fun...We really need to get better at having some intentionally positive things in this show, because for This Month in the Apocalypse, but in other fun news--actually, this one is like almost fine, right? Like there's a super fungus going around called Candida Auris. Brooke 32:40 Super fun. Can't spell super fungus without super fun. Margaret 32:44 I know. That's right. Or Gus. Don't trust anyone named Gus. Is Gus short for something? Gustav? I'm going to ask the next Gus I talk to. I know a Gus. So there's a new fungus. It's been around since 2009. Basically, it's just like there's this like kind of like constant war on...like the same way that like antibiotics are like an arms race where we like we get the new upgraded penicillin and then the biotics, the bacteria, is like, "Whatever, fuck you. I'm like penicillin resistant." So we're like, "Well, now we've got [mutters nonsense word]," and then you know, we're like, "Well, we're [nonsense word] resistant." And that happens in the fungal world as well. Candida Auiris. It was first noticed in 2009. It came to the US in 2016. I'm mostly saying this to say this is not worth freaking out about. This is a thing that like some news articles are telling us about--and I don't think it's bad for news articles to tell us about, right? But, it is not worth freaking out about unless you're in very specific situations, in which case it is worth paying attention to, and I don't mean to disparage, it is mostly currently in hospital settings. It is mostly affecting immunocompromised people who are in hospital settings. If you get it, it's sketchy, right? It has a very high mortality rate. But, it's not airborne. It is surfaces and direct contact. Most people...when I say 'get it,' I mean like get it and it creates its effect, its disease thing, and basically people start worrying about because it was antimicrobial resistant. And that's why people started freaking out about it because it was resistant to like, off the top of my head, I want to say, two of the three main things that were treating other forms of Candida...fungal problems, yeast problems. But, already since this has become a problem, two new anti fungal drugs that are effective on it have been passed by the FDA. So, I guess I'm saying this one to be like, this is a thing that people are like, most than use articles about it are like on your like local news station, you know, like the ones that want to tell you about smiling dogs and about how we're all going to die. Again, it's still worth understanding and keeping an eye on. But it's not worth freaking out about right now. What do you got? What's next? Brooke 35:21 It is kind of positive news, because it is a super fungus, but then they found some things that actually do work on it. Okay, well, I want to I want to insert another short happy thing, since we're talking about happy things. That I read. And this is universal. Scientists discovered, I think just the last couple of weeks, that the rings around the planet Saturn actually help to warm the atmosphere of the planet. Yeah. Just a happy scientific discovery. Margaret 35:57 So, in order to solve climate change... Brooke 36:01 Oh, boy. Margaret 36:02 We need to blow up the moon. It's gotta be worth just a couple of degrees. Brooke 36:10 You know, I think that's gonna fuck up some other things that we don't want to do. Margaret 36:15 I didn't read a whole novel called "Seven Eve's," by Neil Stevenson about what would happen if the moon blew up. Brooke 36:20 Yeah, also as an indigenous person, and the moon is considered our grandmother, I have some feelings about blowing up my grandmother. Margaret 36:28 Everyone dies. Brooke 36:30 I'm gonna. I'm gonna pass. Margaret 36:31 All the people die. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, everyone. I have a tooth ache. I'm sorry. Brooke 36:39 How about some other great news that will make you really happy? Okay, about our former president, Ruffled Dumpagins? Margaret 36:45 We put him on the moon and then we blow it up. Brooke 36:48 Hey, okay, that...I might consent to blowing up my grandmother in that regards. Margaret 36:54 All right, all right. Maybe just put him on the moon, and just let them see what happens. And then your grandmother could take care of them. We don't have to get rid of the grandmother at all. Brooke 37:02 There we go. That's an even better plan. My grandma will definitely take care of Donald Trump. Margaret 37:07 Okay. All right. Brooke 37:09 So, as we're recording this, the former president was indicted just last week by a New York grand jury on more than 30 counts of stuff. And we don't know exactly what the various counts are. That's being kept secret. But, we know that it surrounds the hush money payment that was made to the former porn star--or maybe she's still a current porn star, I don't know which, but good on her way either way--Stormy Daniels, which, in case people don't realize this, paying the hush money isn't actually illegal. It's the way it was paid that was bad. Because it was filtered through the campaign. And yeah, the Dumpikin's former attorney, Cohen, I think was the one, has already been found guilty on this and is serving jail time over it. So, definitely illegal shit happen. What they're trying to argue now is whether Trump himself knew about it, and how involved he was in the illegal activity. So by the time you're listening to this, Grumpikins has already been arraigned, and he's probably gone back to Florida, and he's probably back to campaigning. So you'll have more news on this than we do. But it's that happy thing that I want to mention. An unhappy part of it is that in the three days following the announcement from the grand jury that he was going to be indicted is the disgraced former President raise $7 million in campaign funds for his current presidential bid. Brooke 38:09 You say million or billion? Brooke 38:43 Million. In three days. So, yeah, not a bad return on $130,000. But the payments... Margaret 38:54 Okay, so I have a new way that we can make money. Nope, sorry. Go. Ahead. Brooke 38:57 Yeah, there we go. I mean, and I'm okay if I get to hang up some porn stars too. That'll make me happy. Margaret 39:03 We can become right wing grifters. Brooke 39:05 No, Can we be left wing grifters? Margaret 39:10 Okay, let's find out. Everyone who's listening, send us $10. And then you become an official Live Like the World is Dying host, who can then get other people to send you $10, of which you will turn around and send us $5. But, don't worry, because the people under you will be earning... Brooke 39:28 No, no, no, no. You're describing something that's shaped roughly like a pyramid, which I'm pretty sure is... Margaret 39:34 It's devil worship. Triangle is devil worship. Margaret 39:34 No, it's a triangle. It's the strongest shape in nature. Margaret 39:41 It's the A-frame. It's the a-frame financial model. Brooke 39:48 The former president is also facing other legal challenges, which haven't brought forth charges yet but some of them certainly will. He's under investigation for things including the January, 6th attack on the US capital. Federal election tampering in Georgia, mishandling of classified documents, a civil lawsuit for fraud in New York against the Trump Organization, and a defamation lawsuit, amongst other things. Margaret 40:10 What a good guy. Brooke 40:11 Yeah, super awesome. Margaret 40:14 I do love all the like...You know, it's like the like, the prison abolitionists, anarchists who are too good for electoral politics like, myself and many other people, but it's like, I feel like there's just like a little bit of like, "Alright, well, we can still take some fuck that guy." Like, fuck that guy. I don't care. Yeah. You want to hear some some list of stuff? Brooke 40:38 What else is going on out there, Margaret? Margaret 40:40 Well, there's a diesel spill in West Virginia from a derailed train. I spent a while trying to look up how you filter diesel out of water. But, unfortunately, most of the information is about how to filter diesel out of water...how to how to filter water out of diesel cause people want the diesel. Brooke 40:58 As long as you capture the water, that might not be the worst. Margaret 41:01 Well, it's like, because the water that they're pulling out might some diesel and they don't care. They're getting rid of that water. They're probably throwing it in the fucking creek or on the ground. But like, because you don't want to put watery gas or diesel into your engines order, but the way that people do it is that water is denser than diesel so it sinks to the bottom of the container. So I guess if you're a life or death....I'm not even going to make that advisory. Like don't drink diesel water. Artificial sweetener erythritol, one of those--I think it's one of the alcohol sugars--seems to be linked to heart problems. Doubles your chance of bad shit. It's in some vegan ice cream. So beware. Brooke 41:35 Oh, good to know. Hey, before we go too far from the train derailment. Margaret 41:38 Oh, you wanna do the train thing. Brooke 41:40 Well, just there was another train derailment that made me think of in Montana just over this last weekend. And they were carrying a lot of... Margaret 41:48 Ice cream? Brooke 41:49 Coors Light, and another brand of beer that's similar to that. Margaret 41:57 That's just funny. There's no. Okay. Hell yeah. Brooke 41:59 So, you don't need to filter the beer out of the water. You can just go ahead just drink it. Margaret 42:04 Yeah, it's really good for you. It hydrates you more effectively than water. Brooke 42:08 Its water beer in the first place. So. Margaret 42:11 Okay, that's fair. Speaking of Oregon, we weren't, but a guy who was trapped in the snow, managed to get an SOS out on this phone. This is like a survival tip. This is not a survival tip that applies to almost anyone. He attached his phone to his drone, and flew his drone up until it got enough service and the message sent and he was saved. And that rules. Brooke 42:35 That's fuckin rad. Margaret 42:37 That said, in terms of getting out emergency signals, one way--satellite communicators are a more effective method and cheaper than drones. Not a lot cheaper than drones. I'll be real. There in the like, $300-$400 range, however, and I bet more and more phones will do this. The newer iPhones. I don't have one. But, the newer iPhones have built in satellite communication SOS systems. Where the satellite communicator is like more like what like people hiking in the backwoods and stuff have and it like lets you like text. It's a little bit slow. But like, no matter if you can see the sky, you can get a message out with satellite communicators. Brooke 43:15 You have one of those, don't you, Margaret? Margaret 43:16 I do. I spend some time in the backwoods. And so it's nice to have, Brooke 43:24 Well I have a drone. So, I'm just gonna take my drone and just follow that guy's success. It's like a $300. Drone. It's not a special drone. Margaret 43:33 Yeah, you gotta keep that in your car at all times. You will literally die if you don't have that in your car at all times. Brooke 43:42 Will I not die If I haven't my car? Will it protect me in other situations? Margaret 43:45 I think we're getting off topic. Margaret 43:45 In this specific situation that this man was in, he's immortal now. Because the the signal was interrupted by some vampires. And they came over. He's not allowed to see the sun anymore, which is like a heavy price to pay. Right? And he consumes blood and there's like a lot of like, ennui attached to that. He's a vampire now. Margaret 44:06 So, here's a list of worst air quality in the United States listed from 1 to 10: Bakersfield, California. Congratulations. You've the worst air quality in the United States. Los Angeles, Chicago, Northwest Indiana and the industrial areas like Gary, Indianapolis, Houston, St. Louis, a bunch of rural Pennsylvania managed to like really come in hard for the rural areas. I'm glad to see that rural representation. These are mostly localized to a few hotspots, because you're like in the mountains and there's a factory there and they don't care about you because you're poor. You'll notice that a lot of these places are poor. Atlanta and Birmingham, Alabama. I'm sorry. Finland is joining NATO, so Putin's weird war is having the opposite of the desired effect, and I don't really have an opinion about that, but it's like worth noting. Most of the current like prepper news you can go out and read is gonna be like, "Today, World War III is about to happen tomorrow." And it's like the same person will say this like over and over and over again. And they always have like some reason, as we like inch closer, and they're not even usually like wrong about their reasons. Like the China, US. and Russia are like playing a fucking crazy game right now, you know? And there's like nuclear capable planes from the US like flying near that little weird part of Russia that isn't attached to Russia that's like, south of the...the like Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, you know, there's a tiny piece of Russia under there. And then like, US planes are like, playing a like 'not touching, can't get mad,' game about nucular war. And that's like, not great. But, I'm not like those...I know, I'm now saying the thing that I just said don't worry about, but like, it's...I don't know. I don't feel like we're any more likely to have nuclear war tomorrow than we were yesterday. Personally. Brooke 45:58 We're all going to die anyway. Margaret 46:00 Yeah, except for that guy who sent his drone up to talk to the vampires. Brooke 46:06 Vampire man. Margaret 46:07 Metformin taken during COVID is looking like it's reducing long COVID cases. At least according to some studies. I'm not giving you medical advice, but it's like promising, right? What's promising is that there's more and more information about how people are handling long COVID, which is also really promising because there's a lot of long viral problems like Lyme and things like that, that have been ignored and the people who suffer from them have been mistreated by the medical establishment for decades. And I am optimistic that the research into long COVID--Because long COVID can't be ignored because of the scale at which it's happening--will help people who suffer from these other viral infections. That is my hope. The far Right government in Italy has stopped registering children born to same sex couples. I think it's basically like same sex couples were going to other countries in order to have kids via surrogates. And then now they're like not able to come back to Italy. I don't have the absolute details about...Italy's being fucked up and homophobic. Brooke 47:13 They can't like get a birth certificate? Margaret 47:15 It's something like that, Brooke 47:17 Wow. Margaret 47:17 The the news article was clearly translated and not incredibly well. That was the best I could figure. China is on track to destroy American exceptionalism and become the number one cause of climate change. So, we're gonna have to step up our game everyone. Brooke 47:32 No. Margaret 47:35 On--well, we are stepping up our game because--on March 13th, Biden approved...this could have been a whole separate topic. But, Biden approved a project called Willow and I am offended because "Willow" is an amazing movie and an amazing tree and not a oil development on federal land in Alaska that's the size of fucking Indiana. Brooke 47:54 Yeah, I heard about that. Margaret 47:55 It is key habitat for polar bears and caribou. It fucking sucks. It is like, absolutely a spit in the face to any pretense that one of the most powerful nations on the planet would possibly stick to what it claims about the--not deindustrialization--but de fossil fueling and or whatever... Brooke 48:15 Yeah. Gross. Margaret 48:17 Positive environmental news that is no longer in positive environmental news is electric cars were getting a $7,500 subsidy from the federal government. Except it's a big confusing mess. And no one can tell...like not even the car companies know whether you have to lease, if you can buy, which ones you can buy. And it all has to do with this like pissing match thing where they want all of the...the subsidy cars have to have a certain percentage or maybe it's all of it, I'm not sure, of the components made within the United States. But, at the moment, all of that is a nightmare mess. So people don't know which electric car they can get $7,500 subsidy on. Brooke 48:53 But, there is a $4,000 federal subsidy that is more straightforward and not all fucked up and confusing. Margaret 49:03 That's good to know. Like Virginia recently passed a gun law that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not opposed to all gun laws, I guess, except in the abstract way or I don't like law as a system, but they passed a thing that's just like subsidies for people to get gun safes. It's not a requirement. It's not a like safe gun lock up requirement, although I think that that should exist, but maybe not in a law way but in a cultural norm way. But yeah, like if you want people to change an economic system, and we do. We need a different economic system, or a different...Well, we did a lot of different things to be changed, but whatever. I don't know. Okay, so Finally, my small thing is that the Inter governmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC released a new report. We're fucked. I mean, we're almost certainly going to overshoot the Paris Agreement, of capping climate change at 1.5. C [degrees Celsius change] And 1.5. C is where you start getting runaway feedback loops, at least according to...I mean, everyone's given different numbers. Some people, I've heard 2 C [degrees Celsius] or whatever, but like, yeah. It's bad and things need to change more dramatically than I believe the current system is capable of changing things. So as much as I'm like, "Oh, money for electric guitar," Guitars? Electric guitars for everyone. Because then if you're all vampires, you can like [makes guitar note noises] like, the Crow. But I think that fundamentally and dramatically shifting the way that our governmental and economic systems work is a more likely way to stop climate change than convincing our current governmental system to effectively address it. Brooke 50:49 Right there with you. I bet our friends over It Could Happen Here will probably read that report and talk about it in depth. I know they did last year when that report came out. And that was pretty good info they distilled down there and so hopefully they'll do that again for us. Margaret 51:04 They're not our friends. We hate them. We're starting beef with....No. They're all so nice. They're also, they want to...I also work for them. But yeah, okay. Margaret 51:16 They play games with us. We like them. Margaret 51:22 Yeah. What else? We're coming up on an hour. We got anything else? Brooke 51:27 Oh, that was my list. Margaret 51:30 Okay. Well, I think we can change things fundamentally. And I also think we can build the systems by which to mitigate the worst effects of the changes that are going to happen. And I think we can do that by building together in community minded preparedness ways. Brooke, do you want to start a podcast with me about how to do individual and community preparedness? We can make it be weekly. Give it some name, like Don't Die Weekly or.... Brooke 52:07 I feel like Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness already produces something like that. And we might be on it right now. Margaret 52:17 Whoa. Brooke 52:18 I know. You can listen to it starting weekly, starting right now. Margaret 52:24 Whoa. Yeah, Brooke 52:26 It's actually called Live Like the World is Dying and Margaret, you do most of it. Though, I think the toothache is making you forget. Margaret 52:34 The Vampire Cast. Brooke 52:37 Come to Oregon. Become a vampire. Or not. Margaret 52:39 Yeah, it's true. Oregon's could still hang. I mean, my toothache is fucking me up. I'm not even on drugs for it yet. I'm just excited to finish so I can take ibuprofen. Brooke 52:50 Well, how can we finish? Brooke 52:57 Thanks so much for listening to the latest installment of This Month in the Apocalypse. We come to you as members of the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness publishing collective. We produce three, soon to be four other podcasts, create zines and publish books. You can check out that great stuff on our website, Tangledwilderness.org. We're also on some social media platforms like Instagram and Twitter. Margaret 53:20 And Vampire Freaks. Brooke 53:23 We are able to do these rad things because of our Patreon supporters. Margaret 53:27 Myspace. Brooke 53:34 You make this Friendster. Do we have Friendster? Margaret 53:38 We only add you on Friendster if you support us on Patreon, I'm sorry, them's the rules. Brooke 53:44 Our patrons make this work possible. And if you're interested in supporting our work, please check us out on patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Those who support us that $20 a month level get a special shout out at the end of every podcast. Margaret 53:56 They're in our top eight. Brooke 53:58 Top eight? Margaret 54:01 Were you not a MySpace kid? Brooke 54:03 I was but I don't...Oh! Yeah! The little the board thing with the squares. Yes. Okay, I forgot we called it that. Margaret 54:09 Your top eight friends. Brooke 54:11 Yep. All right. We want to say thanks to Hoss the dog, Miciahah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Cat J, Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, Theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, paprouna, Aly, Paige, Janice, Oxalis. And yes, thank you so much. Margaret 54:32 United States, Canada, Mexico, Panama, Haiti, Jamaica, Peru, Republic Dominican, Cuba, Caribbean, Alabama, Alaska. El Salvador too, Brooke 54:39 Colorado, Connecticut. Margaret 54:44 We actually like you all individually. I'm sorry that we made it...it's a toothache. Bye, everyone. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary Janet and Margaret talk about sustainable foraging, herbalism, wild tending, constructive ethics on why you might choose not to wildcraft, ways to impact your food intake in small but meaningful ways, unlearning extractive tendencies when harvesting food and medicine, and upholding indigenous wisdom around wild tending. Guest Info Janet (she/her) is an herbalist and teacher at the Terra Sylva School of Botanical Medicine. Janet can be found on wordpress at Radical Vitalism The school can be found on Instagram @terrasylvaschool. Janet does a podcast called The Book on Fire. Janet recommends reading The Honorable Harvest by Robin Wall Kimmerer. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Janet on Sustainable Foraging Margaret 00:14 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Margaret Killjoy. And this week we're going to be talking about herbalism and foraging and sustainable foraging of herbalism, and forage....[Trails off] That's what we're gonna be talking about with with Janet Kent, who you all have heard from before on another episode from a long time ago, about herbalism. And I think you'll all get a lot out of this episode. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:12 And we're back. Okay, so Janet, if you could introduce yourself with your name, which I guess I already said, and your pronouns and kind of what you do for a living as, which would help people understand why they should listen to you about this topic. Janet 01:44 I am Janet Kent, my pronouns are she/her. I run a school of botanical medicine that's located about an hour outside of Asheville, in southern Appalachia, and in so called Western North Carolina. And I'm also a clinical herbalist. And I also live in hardwood co [conifer] forest. And so I'm surrounded by wild plants. And specifically, like this region of southern Appalachia has a long history of settler wild crafting as a kind of hustle. And there were a lot of...when most pharmaceuticals came out of plants back in the day, this was a huge nexus of harvesting and distributing, and people extracted a lot of plants from the wild as a means of survival and sold them to the pharmaceutical companies. So, that is partially because this is a really ecologically rich place. But, I say all that just to say that I'm surrounded by plants that have medicinal value, even in like the larger market outside of the home forager or home apothecary. So, it's something that like, we have to really think about here and are forced to. Even though we're surrounded by the medicine, the ethics of that are something that I think about pretty regularly. So, I might be better situated than some to consider that. Yeah, Margaret 03:13 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that's why I wanted to have you on to talk today, right? Because I feel like this is this question that is coming up more and more as foraging becomes a little bit more mainstream. Or? Well, I guess, actually, to start with, we were talking earlier, and you talked about how there's sort of a foraging craze that's coming from the pandemic, I was wondering if you could kind of talk about that, like what's happening right now in foraging? 03:38 Yeah, I mean, while I do think there was a much more of a burst during the pandemic, when people were getting outside more. Public spaces, and parks became more visited once they were open again. And you saw just a lot more people out. I don't know, like how much time you spend in public spaces. But, there was a huge increase in people national parks, and national forests, State Forest, all of those kinds of places. And even just in city parks and such. And I think that there has been a lot of social media content that's being created around foraging. And it is like a way that people can get excited about gathering their own food. It can be a really nice, like gateway to like relationships with plants, because people start to learn to identify plants and learn what is food. And I definitely think that there's no small part of this that is also connected to people wanting to spend less money on food. I mean, we have applicants for school sometimes even say, you know, like, I want to learn more about plants that are useful for food and for medicine, because I need to spend less money. So there's like an economic incentive here, as well. And I should probably spend some time on that in a bit. But, also I would just say that over the last...I don't know, it's probably been more than a decade, there has just been a surge in interest in wild plants, including for food and for medicine. Margaret 05:10 Yeah. And that's either really good or really bad depending on who you ask, Is that what's Is that what's happening right now? Janet 05:19 Yeah, I would say that there can be pretty binary of viewpoints on this. And it's interesting, I mean, something that you probably see with a lot of people that you interview or with different communities that you might be in as there is a rise in awareness of just the colonial project that we're all part of still. And so that this is still occupied territory. There are indigenous people here whose land settlers are occupying. There is a certain level of guilt that can come with that awareness...[interrupted] Margaret 05:56 Right? Janet 05:56 [Continues] If you are someone who is not indigenous to turtle islands, and the way that I see that play out sometimes, not always, is with people sometimes seeing kind of stark black and white ideas around what is good and what is not good, and relationship. And we see people who hear like, "We shouldn't wildcraft," or they memorize like this all wildcrafting, which is the word that herbalist and people who are into plant medicine will use to describe harvesting herbs for medicine specifically. I don't actually hear 'wildcrafting' used to refer to food. Yeah, but so wildcrafting can be seen as strictly extractive and people just taking from the wild, because as I mentioned in the introduction, there is a long history of plants being taken en mass from the forests, to serve the pharmaceutical industry. And even now, there are certain plants that are threatened and endangered because they are used, even in European markets. Margaret 07:03 Like what? Janet 07:05 Black cohosh, specifically, is an herb that is seen as being helpful for some menopausal states. And it's used in...So in Europe, it's more license legal to be a doctor who uses plant medicine. And so you can prescribe herbs there. It's more regulated as well, but definitely tons of black cohosh are sent abroad every year. And from what...I met someone who works, is sort of like from a root digging family, like a traditional Appalachian root digging family, but she said she'd been in warehouses where there was just like piles of rotting roots of black cohosh, you know, cause people... Margaret 07:48 Oh, God. Janet 07:48 Yeah, the work of, as in is usually the case, like the piece workers, the people who are gathering are paid shit. And then the stuff is piled up. It's not stored very well. Some fraction of it will make it into medicine. And so there is very much a problem with extraction en masse of plants, especially when the root is what's being harvested, because that kills the plant. Right? Margaret 08:12 Yeah. Ginseng is like one that I feel like I hear about too. Janet 08:16 Absolutely. Ginseng would be a great example. And interestingly, I mean, you may even live in ginseng country. I do, for sure. But, that's something that's, you know, has been historically, as settlers came into these mountains, have shipped abroad, because by the time the Revolutionary War happened here, already, there was a dearth of ginseng in China because so much had been wild harvested, and they hadn't really put in cultivation yet. And so, as soon as the global market, people within the global market figured out that there was a similar ginseng here, they started shipping it abroad, and actually ginseng sales helped pay for the Revolutionary War. Margaret 09:02 Oh, god. Uh huh. Janet 09:03 Which is just so wild. Yes. So, there is very much history of extraction of plants. Margaret 09:10 Yeah. For the extractive project that is the Revolutionary War Janet 09:14 Yes, absolutely, a huge scale. So, when we are thinking about our own personal use or serving our communities or, you know, a lot of people will try to make herbal products as a side hustle, then we do need to confront our personal relationship with that legacy. That's obviously really important. However, the amount of time and energy people spent in policing other people's foraging and wildcrafting is a lot, as you may imagine. Margaret 09:42 Yeah, social media is particularly good at getting us to level our weapons at each other. Yeah. Janet 09:48 Right. So, we see a lot of that, and I feel like the the climate has not been very nuanced for this conversation, because what's true, and this is probably a part of what you're wanting to get out with this episode is that there's a really big difference between digging up a 15 year old root of a plant in the forest that took that long to get that big and taking the whole root and killing it, than there is actually harvesting weeds or harvesting invasive plants or plants that are here in abundance. And actually, you can harvest some kinds of plants in a way that is supportive to the plant community that they live in, because they're opportunistic or taking too much space. And so, I think when we have a black and white rubric around this, and much like all wildcrafting is extractive, we're also forgetting that there is a way for humans to be in relationship with plant communities in a way that fosters diversity and richness in the ecology. And can be a form of wild tending. And that is how Turtle Island was maintained by all of the indigenous folks who are living in so many different plant communities around the continent before Europeans showed up and disrupted that. Margaret 11:04 Okay, so what are some of the...I like, examples. It makes it really more concrete in my head. Like, what are some of the examples of plants that you're helping that plant community by foraging or or by? Yeah. Janet 11:17 Okay. Yeah, that's, that's a good question. And there's, I'll share with you a book, there's a whole book on invasive plant medicines. And so I'm going to say 'invasive' here, I know that that's a controversial word to some people. But, what I mean is plants that came after 1492, and are opportunistic and can take over spaces, and take up space. So, that's what I mean when I'm saying that, and we can say 'non native' or 'invasive' or just 'opportunistic,' but I'm gonna say 'weedy' and 'abundant' plants here. Plantain would be a weedy and abundant plant, and mugwort can be quite opportunistic, and take over in some places. Mimosa tree, the really beautiful pink firecracker looking tree that grows in the southeast pretty abundantly is pretty opportunistic. It can take over spaces for sure, you know, and sometimes native plants are also pretty weedy as well. Yarrow is a plant that comes from Europe, that there are some native varieties too, but they tend to not be as opportunistic. A lot of garden plants that have escaped, like catnip or horehound you might find in other places, sometimes lemon balm goes feral, in some places, as well. So, those would be some examples. But, a lot of trees that you see...[corrects self ] well, it's hard to say...Trees that were planted for landscaping, and then kind of move out like, Tree of Heaven is an example. There's a lot of different trees that got brought in at various points that have spread out and can really out compete other trees. Yeah. Margaret 12:57 This is really interesting to me for a lot of reasons...I mean, I'm kind of notoriously bad for someone who like often lives off grid or like, you know, I live mostly alone on a bunch of acres in a mountain or whatever in Appalachia. And I'm like, kind of notoriously bad at actually knowing the plants around me and how to engage with them besides being like, I swear, one year, I'm gonna be here in the fall and eat the acorns. You know, has been my plan for however many years. I've done every step of acorn harvesting at various points and never actually finished it and eaten them. But, so it's just, it's kind of interesting to me because as I walk around, you know, the place that I live, I become more and more familiar with some of these plants and it's interesting to think about them in different ways. And then also think about, like, whether or not I have a desire or like, a role in sort of shaping what plants grow around me. And like, I don't even know the answer that yet. Like, I mean, what I sort of in my head, I'm like, I believe both the pines and the Oaks near me are fairly, you know, native to this area, or whatever. But, I'm like, but I like the Oaks more. And so I'm like, Is it bad to start, like, kind of cutting back the pines and like trying to propagate more of the Oaks? Like, maybe the tree level is a higher level of thinking about because they take a lot longer, but is that something that like, people should be doing in the kinds of....should be is a weird question....but [people] could think about doing in the places that they forage or, like thinking about what the current plant environment community is and what it could be shifted towards? Or is that like, do you stay out of it? This is not a question. Sorry. Janet 14:39 Yeah, no, I, I think I can pick the through line in there, which is that: what would a good relationship look like when foraging? And to me, you know, I wasn't taught this way at all. I definitely came up in herbalism when this was not part of our conversation. But, I think in general, wild tending is the way to go where you actually have a perennial relationship with the plants that you live around or the plants that you visit, or the places that you'd like to harvest so that you can pay attention to when they're healthy and when they need support. See which plants are taking up some more space, you know, I mean, depending on what pines you're around, you know, those would have at one time been controlled partially through fire management practices, because they burn more than oaks. So, you know, that's like...I mean, not that we're trying to like, go back to some pristine era, because that's not possible. There's just sort of moving forward from where we're at. But, but it is true that in a lot of places where there were mixed forest in that way, there would be periodic fire for....support hunting, which would have taken out the pine. I mean, I think that personally, preferential treatment of different plant communities and landscapes feels pretty intuitive. And also, if you look back through history, but also if you just look at different cultures that are living in a sort of a tending/stewardship relationship with the plants around them, there is usually preferential management practice, which that's kind of like a boring way to say it, but yes, like favoring the plants you would like to see do better and favoring plants often that are useful to humans, and wildlife. You know, before the American Chestnuts went through, they're blight, they're not extinct, there are still a few left, but before the chestnut blight took out such a large amount of the chestnut trees on the eastern coast that was the dominant tree. And yes, they were taller and larger than most of the trees in the forest, but there was a level of preference for those because they made tons of food every year. And so humans and birds and other animals that like chestnuts, propagated the chestnuts by moving them around, even a squirrel burying a bunch of chestnuts is going to make more chestnuts come up, you know? So I think that that is a pretty natural way to relate to the plants around you, which is to favor some over others, you know. And when you start to pay attention to like, who's just kind of taken over, which can be plants that are actually from here too. And you want....ecosystem's tend to benefit from number of connections and number of members. And so you want to see richness in both of those numbers. You want to see more members and you want to see more connections. So, when you have any one member dominating, you're having less of both. And I think if we can think of tending towards, you know, the word diversity is almost destroyed at this point for usefulness, however, I could say that ecologically, what I mean is like, yes, strengthen members and connections. Margaret 17:57 Okay. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. I don't know, I've been really enjoying just like, you know, I have a dog now. So, I have to walk around a lot. And actually, like, pay more attention, because he's always like finding all of the things and making me pay attention to it. I don't know where I'm going with that. There's cactus where I live. And it confuses the hell out of me. Yeah, I live in West Virginia. Janet 18:21 Are they prickly pears? Margaret 18:24 I don't know. They're small. They're like low to the ground. They're like big, round, green lobes kind of like hanging out on the ground. There's not a lot of them. But, it confuses the hell out of me. I have no idea if they're native to this area or not. I don't understand. I don't know why I'm telling you that. Now everyone knows I have cactus. Janet 18:51 Dogs are wonderful for getting us out of the house and out into the world, you know, and then you start to pay attention to who else is around, you know, the dog leads you to the others. Right? Margaret 19:00 Yeah, totally. It's how I know about all the turtles on the property is my dog finds them in and hangs out with them and just sort of stares at them. And then I watch them. Janet 19:07 Are they box turtles? Margaret 19:08 Yeah, there's some kind of. Yeah, I think they're box turtles. They're not, uh, they're not doing so well. I looked them up. There's not a lot of them. But, I live somewhere where there's not a lot of roads. So they don't die as much. Janet 19:22 Right. I love box turtles. I actually wanted to bring up a different similar creature when I was thinking about this topic earlier, which is that I think that, while I can be like, it's all you know, 'we need to turn relationships, we need to be stewarding land,' all of these things, it is worth noting that generally, wildlife and plant communities are under pressure when people get hungry. And you know, I was in Florida near some of the beautiful springs down there a few years ago, and I've also seen these In parts of the Gulf South, but there are these really cool tortoises called gopher tortoises. Have you ever met one of those? Margaret 20:05 No, Janet 20:07 They're kind of big. I just realized I'm using my hands and you're able to see my hands on the podcast. However, they're pretty big turtles.Tortoises. And, they're so cool. One of the things they do is they make these burrows That's why they're called gopher tortoises, but they help a lot of different creatures survive hurricane flooding and other like vast flooding, because other animals will hang out in their burrows. They're like, wombats or something. They're like a helper species that makes habitat for other animals. But, I was reading about them when I was down there and in the Great Depression, the locals down on the Gulf South and in Florida, called them Hoover Chickens. Because they were naming after present President Hoover, who they were blaming for the Great Depression and just got....because they eating so many tortoises to survive, okay, and the tortoise population just like dropped out during that time, and they're slowly getting back, but they have a hard time too, like the box turtles that we live near. And so when I read that I just, it made me really...it made me think about foraging honestly, and how much I had seen this like uptick, with the economic dip, and made me just understand the level to which we need to be emphasizing what's abundant. And what you know...a tortoise....Tortoises are not abundant. They were not abundant even back then, probably. But like, what species are there a lot of? Which species does harvesting actually help the larger plant community? But, also with individual species, there's plants where if you harvest in a specific way that helps propagate them, then you can help increase their numbers as well. And that's going to differ from plant to plant. But, I think that what I would like to see with people getting more and more excited about foraging and wild harvesting of herbs in general, is that actual consciousness about what it is to help their numbers grow so that it's not as much of an extract of relationship? Margaret 22:14 Yeah, no, I remember reading one of the things that like really stuck with me, I read a long time ago, it was about how during the Great Depression, like squirrels and deer were hunted to near extinction in various places. And like.... Janet 22:29 Wow Margaret 22:29 Yeah, exactly. And, you know, these are the things when I think of abundant animals, right, I think of deer and squirrels, at least where I live. And, and so that, that realization that we actually have an impact, you know. Like, the small amounts of destructive things we do really can add up. Obviously, we're living through a, you know, climate level of all of that coming. But no, that's, that's makes me sad about the tortoises. But okay, so So what are some examples then of these? I know I just keeping like, give me more examples, because I like the stories of it. But like, what are some of the plants that you're like helping? I can imagine, for example, like, I mean, obviously, chestnuts are very complicated right now. But, you know, harvesting chestnuts, of course, doesn't necessarily negatively impact the tree. And earlier you were talking about basically being like roots are like much more complicated to extract, or there are like ways of extracting roots that are less bad? Would you mostly say to anyone listening to this unless you know, better just don't mess with roots and work on some other stuff? Janet 23:39 Yeah, you know, and actually, you're reminding me that when I have been seeing a lot of like, more like virally popular foragers, they don't tend to emphasize roots, which I feel grateful for. And yeah, I would say that in general, unless you have a perennial relationship with a plant community than just staying away from roots is a good idea. But with a lot of plants, there are ways to harvest where you're not actually greatly impacting the plant. Let me think of some examples of that. I mean, I almost don't want to bring up ramps because they are so over harvested in some places. Those are wild leeks for people who might not know, but what is true is that if instead of harvesting the bulb, the white bulb, it's kind of like an onion, garlicky thing and each can just take a leaf and harvest leaves from a big patch instead of digging them up that's gonna make a huge difference. Now when you see restaurants start saw offer foragers money for ramps, at least in my neighborhood, I started to see much more like big holes dug where they're just digging up clumps of them at a time and then just taking them wholesale out to sell, you know, and so, I would say like, yeah, the above ground parts are always always gonna be more sustainable to harvest. But also, if you're taking flowers from a plant, for example. I'm trying to think of like a good example of this. I love peach flower medicine, I love peach flower for grief and for hot agitated states and there are feral peach flower trees and, and there's old orchards that are no longer sprayed. And when you're harvesting peach flowers, you can actually support the tree because they need to not let all of those flowers go ripe and become flat fruit because it's too much. So, if you selectively just pick a couple blooms off the into clusters, that's actually going to help the plant overall, you know? Or I'm thinking of, I wanted to give another example of something in a more urban setting. but linden trees are plants, there are some linden trees that are native to this continent, they're called basswood trees, that's the name here. But there's European lindens that are planted ornamentally There's a bunch of them in downtown Asheville. But that's like, where there'll be a huge tree covered with thousands of blossoms and the flowers are the medicine there too. And they're always covered with bees. Bees love them. But, if you see something like that, where you're like, it's impossible to even imagine how many there are, then you can take some flowers, and you're not going to hurt that tree. You know, I guess if we all did that, that would be something we're thinking about. And that's why having a perennial relationship where you see the shifts through the years, see who's getting hit. And, if an area is being over harvested, you can tell because you've been paying attention, that would be something to do. But yeah, I would say like there are a lot of like flowering trees where you can get the flowers or you could even prune some of the branches and have some of what you need. But also with urby plants, the above ground plant, you can kind of see the parts, the aerial parts is what we call them, and notice how much has gone. And usually you can tell if someone else has been there, right. So, that would be what I would say. But again, if you if you're sticking to really weedy abundant plants, then this is going to just be less of an issue like goldenrod, for example, is a gorgeous endemic plant, or a plant that grows on a lot of parts of Turtle Island, which is a really excellent allergy remedy. Not so good for food. But they're incredibly weedy. You'll see a giant field of them right over the place, you know, and so if you just stuck to plants that were pretty weedy and abundant like that, even if you got as much as you're going to need for the year, it would be very little in a dent of even one plant stand. Margaret 27:45 Yeah. Okay, so I took a bunch of notes on what you were saying, because there's so many pieces that I want to pick apart. And one of them is this, I've been running across this thing more, and I suspect you've probably run across a mortgage or rent more in these circles. But this idea that like, the concept of nature is sort of a colonial construct. This idea that like, when we create the idea of nature, we're talking about something that is distinct from humans, and how that's like, kind of this thing that like gets us off the hook. Like when we imagine like humans as only bad. It like lets us off the hook for being bad as compared to like, it seems like you could talk about either you show up and you dig up all the roots of these, you know, ginseng or whatever that's been there forever, and you just like mess everything up, versus they're like other plants that do very well for humans as part of the ecosystem interacting with them in the same way that they do very well for having bees in the ecosystem or birds in the ecosystem. Whatever. Yes. I don't know, it's really interesting to me. And I'm wondering if that's like a conversation that... Janet 28:46 I think that's been a helpful conversation, I think, for people to have around not just having black and white thinking around it, which is what you're gonna get, I think, which is that, if we're actually in relationship, then we're going to be able to care for the plants instead of just taking or just ignoring. I mean, there's definitely, unfortunately, a pretty big segment of people who are into environmental biology who do have a very hands off, 'don't interfere, just leave it,' you know, kind of perspective. Margaret 29:21 The Star Trek approach. Janet 29:23 Definitely, which is I mean, ridiculous given that there are no plants left on the planet who are not being impacted by human activity. So, you actually going in and maybe... So, part of, this is like, kind of an aside from what we're talking about, but there's this concept called assisted migration, which when you're like, "These plants hate how hot it's getting right here. We should move them further north." You know, and so there's all these people who are like, "No, no, we can't interfere. We might ruin everything." You know, it's like time traveling or something like we actually, like do one thing wrong and everything will be, it'll be a clusterfuck. And the whole system will collapse because we move this tree up there. And who knows who else is on there. But then there's a lot of people who there's actually like secret groups who meet to help with assisted migration and to propagate. It's really wild. Anyway, I say all this just to say that, like I'm not on a never interfere with, because I think the interference is happening already. I mean, it's not my life's work to move trees around to places where they might make it. Right. But that is something that, you know, even the research we have about this extinction crisis is just that the loss is huge. And are there places where we could support life becoming, like diversifying and strengthening, plant communities as other trees are coming out? Like right now, where I live? I don't know if this is how you're where it is where you're at or not, but the ash trees are all dying. Margaret 30:56 The ash borer, whatever? Yeah. Janet 30:58 And it's really happening hardcore where we live. So yes, it is true that there will be other trees that are going to come in to those canopy gaps, to live. But we are seeing these forests change dramatically right now. And it's just, it's going to be interesting. Like, there are people who, because the hemlocks are dying out as well from the woolly adelgid along the rivers and streams, and some places around here, there are people who are like, "Well, what are the plants that we could put in here intentionally, that would help shade that would support the trout and support the life in here?" You know, and so those kinds of ecosystem design frameworks make people really uncomfortable because of the level of damage that has happened through the inadvertent introduction of certain species. Margaret 31:48 Right. Well, it's like, if we fucked something up so bad. And 'we' is a weird word to use in this context. But sure, you know, I mean, I'm a settler here and I, you know, reap the rewards of that in terms of like, the foods available to me at the store, whatever, tons of shit. But okay, we fucked this thing up so bad. I can understand people's like, "Oh, no, we fucked it up. We just shouldn't do anything." But, but that's a little bit like, pushing someone over. And then they're like, "Help me up," and you're like, "No, last time I interacted with you, it went really bad. So I'm just gonna walk away." Janet 32:25 No, I mean, exactly. Like, we're gonna just watch the destruction happen that is in the wake of this economic system, and not actually do anything to change it, because we might hurt something. I mean, it's absurd when you actually lay it out that way. Margaret 32:41 Yeah, we set the house on fire. And now we don't want to run in and help people because we just make everything worse, so we should avoid everything. I mean, it's because I think that it makes sense for people to not be like, wildly cavalier about deciding that, you know, they should just get to reengineer the way that ecosystems work. I like, Oh, that's such an interesting tension that I don't have any answers for but... Janet 33:07 Well, I mean, there is a lot of tension with it. I mean, I think a lot of times when I see scientists who are taking a really hard line, 'no interference' stance, they are people who don't study indigenous land management, and don't understand the level to which humans normally play in ecosystem, design and movement, and construction. And so I think that in general, what would be the wisest thing to do for anyone would be you know, what, if you're not indigenous to this place, what are the indigenous folks around you saying about what is wild tending? And what does support and stewardship of this land look like right now? Margaret 33:45 Right. Yeah, though, that makes sense. What is involved in...you know, I'm not indigenous and what would be involved in trying to find that out where I'm at? Do I look for people who are like kind of talking about that publicly? I assume the answer is not just like, go find my friends who are indigenous and be like, "You there..." Janet 34:05 Well, it depends. I mean, it really depends where where people live. I mean, there are in many places around the continent, I'm learning more and more about this, there are actually are cultural centers where you can talk to folks and be like...who are working on land management stuff, right then you know, within whatever tribal sovereignty they have in that situation. Here, this is unceded, Cherokee land, but you know, we are in contact with folks who are doing wild tending and talking about...a lot of the schools there in the Cherokee where the actual reservation is, they are actually trying to introduce more and more wild foods, you know, and so through talking to folks who are part of that project, we've been able to be like, "Okay, like, what, would be helpful for you to have more of?" Also, one thing that I would say in most places, there's some tension between what indigenous groups...what land they have access to and in the Cherokee area, I mean, a specific part that they're still have control over right now, you know, I know a grandmother who was given a $500 citation for picking herbs in the National Forest, for her daughter's memorial, you know, and, at the same time, like they had to have...the Cherokee folks had to push through to try to get a permit to be able to pick this plant called sochan, which is a wild perennial green that people eat in the spring especially. And so through communicating around with those folks, like I've been able to, like learn, like what plants are being prioritized with them, but also like supporting them, you know, like, they had to petition the state for us to be like, "Can we pick herbs on this land?" Right? Yeah. And so actually, like, as annoying as it is supporting that getting the word out, making sure that there's a shit ton of signatures sent to the State Forest, which are just like that this even a question is absurd, right? Especially because there are plenty of settler foragers just going out and foraging with no sort of impact. I mean, they're having an impact, but they don't have to deal with any consequences. So yeah, I guess I would say is like figuring out who's just around you, you know, and usually, and the thing is, is I don't know how the regions are all over the country, but it definitely in the west and southwest and in some parts of the southeast, too, it's not that hard to find cultural centers, or people who are working on land and food sovereignty, where they're at. And so I would just say, I don't know about specifically where you are and that's an interesting question. But, there are cultural centers in a lot of places that will have people working on food, wild food support, and often just like land tending and medicine ways. And I know, in the West, like, we've had a couple of students who actually are doing fire management, intentional fire trainings with with different indigenous tribes out there. And so they're actually learning to do the fire management practices from the people on the ground who had that tradition. And I think that's a fascinating way to learn to and to be like...because that can be somewhat dangerous as you're learning, right?And so like, that feels like a pretty big service to me, to be like, "Could you help do that kind of work somewhere?" And you would learn as you went, what plants are being prioritized, which plants need support, what plants are problems, you know, through through that work as well. Margaret 37:55 Okay. I liked that. I liked that's...I feel like usually that kind of question the like, "Well, what can you do?" doesn't have as good of a concrete answer as that I really appreciate that. One of the things you were talking about earlier, you're talking about, you know, the ramps that are being sold to the restaurants and stuff, right? And I was just thinking about how it seems like when you're talking about foraging, and when you're talking about wildcrafting, obviously, scale matters, but also when money gets involved, it seems like it gets real messy. And like, I wonder how people like, like, is there any ethical wild foods that introduce into market environments? Or is it like pretty much, if you're going to be doing foraging, you should be feeding yourself and your family and maybe your community but not doing it at like market scale? Janet 38:49 Yeah, that's tough. I mean, I don't know. There's definitely some folks around here who do like a wild food, food share even. And then there's people who do wild food...there's like a wild food booth at the farmers market because of this. That's how it is around here. There's just more people with that interest who are willing to pay the big bucks for foraged items. And so I can imagine... Margaret 39:07 Which is just like ironic, but anyway. Janet 39:09 Yeah, if you could see what's on the table at this spot, it's pretty wild. But um, anyway, but so that feels like a scale....it's not that....I'm like, who's actually....like, how much are they actually selling at the farmers market every week? Like, you know, I don't know, it doesn't seem like huge but once we think about like actually scaling up to like, say, like, provide for several stores or something like that, and it does get kind of out of hand. And I know that in some places, like mushroom foraging has gotten pretty wild in a way that can be destructive, but again, that depends on the mushroom. I mean some mushrooms, it actually helps them to have a lot of people in there just sort of disturbing the ground and like spreading the spores around, while some mushrooms when it's not actually the fruiting body like Chaga or something it can be somewhat damaging harvest a lot of it. It really just depends. I think that, if, say like your product was something that was a really, a plant that's causing a lot of trouble in a whole area? Like around here there's there are people who are working really madly on kudzu root production and using kudzu root for for starch and using kudzu root to make paper. They have this kudzu camp every year and like dig a ton of kudzu root and just trying to figure out how many ways they could work with kudzu root. If that was what was entering the market, then that would be fine. Because as you know, having lived in the southeast, there's no shortage of kudzu for people to work with. So, if we were actually making a marketable item out of opportunistic and aggressive plants, then that would be not a bad idea, actually. I mean, yeah, who knows? I'm sure it could get weird. Margaret 40:59 Yeah. Right, because you could eventually enter the nonprofit trap. Like, I'm not anti nonprofits. But at some level, every nonprofit has a financial incentive to continue its problem existing. Janet 41:10 Oh, yes. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So you'd be like, "Oh, God, we've got our kudzu. What are we gonna do?" Margaret 41:15 Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's a good problem for us to run into, right? Janet 41:22 Yeah, definitely. Margaret 41:23 And then, like, I was thinking about one of the other places I've been with the most, like intense invasive things, I think of like, the Himalayan blackberries in the Pacific Northwest, that will just like, take over every field. And, and in some ways, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, great, you know, blackberries." And then I'm like, "Oh, I think if you're just picking the berries, you're actually just propagating." Janet 41:42 Totally, Margaret 41:43 We would need to instead like have the commercial product, 'heart of BlackBerry root' or something, you know? Janet 41:50 It would need to be the root. Probably, yeah. Which is just so wild. If you've ever removed a lot of that stuff, it's so intense. Margaret 41:58 Yeah, I used to do landscaping. And that was, most of what we did is remove Blackberry, BlackBerry root balls or whatever. It's been a long time. Janet 42:08 I think also, since you brought the Northwest up again, I just wanted to say that like part of what I would want to just share here, since we're giving different specific examples is that really, it just matters like place to place even weedy and abundant plants in some places can be a problem if you're harvesting them other places. Like here, stinging nettle is like pretty aggressive. It's abundant. There's a lot of places where you can harvest a huge amount and make barely a dent in the stinging nettle patch. But, I know that there are places in the Northwest where there's actually been a problem. And there are certain butterflies who exclusively lay their eggs, that have caterpillars that feed on nettles, which I don't remember what kind of butterfly this is, and so those butterflies have become endangered because of the foraging craze around Portland specifically, because it's a very small area that they inhabit. So, while I could be like "Nettles, great, just take the top third of the plant. It's a huge patch, it won't matter." Like that doesn't translate to everywhere across the continent, right? So part of what we have to do if we're going to be foraging much for food or medicine is to actually know what are the conditions for the plant where we live? And not just have...I can't give a list of what's safe to harvest everywhere. That's why invasives can feel a little safer. Because generally, if you know something invasive, then you already know that it would be helpful to right take some of them out, but other plants not so much. You know. Margaret 43:41 That's actually one of the things that's really interesting. I think there's a lot of topics that we talked about on the show where you kind of can't learn from this show. You kind of can't learn from this like: "Oh, I follow a forger on Instagram. therefore know all this stuff." I mean, like, I'm sure you can learn a ton of stuff that way. I'm not trying to disparage that, or my own show. But it sounds like local knowledge will always be necessary in a lot of different fields that are the kinds of fields that we like, we as a species need to like learn or we as a culture or whatever, like need to learn in order to survive what's coming anyway are a lot of these skills where we're actually interacting with the places we're at in terms of you know, whether it's like making microclimates that the temperature doesn't change as much or being able to continue to eat food on a regular basis or whatever. as we as we move more local, a lot of the knowledge has to move local. That's really interesting to me. Janet 44:35 Yeah, that's definitely true. And I would also say that it's something that like you have to kind of pay attention to over time, because we have local knowledge as of now, but the climate is shifting so quickly. And a lot of people I know are in zones that have changed already in the past five years. And so, we also need to be paying attention to like who amongst the plants is impacted by this shift to warmer and erratic weather, and who is thriving like that, you know, and so it's also just paying attention to those changes. And and that's something that it really just helps to be an observer over time or to speak to people who've been around for quite a while. And within that, I think it's probably important for us to think of the concept of the shifting baseline from ecology. Which, the shifting baseline means that like...Okay, so my example would be like, when my dad was a kid, my dad's 87. When my dad was a kid, there were so many more kinds of birds, there were so many more animals of all kinds all around like wild animals. There are a lot more specific kinds of like big birds that eat big insects, like Whippoorwills, there are more Bobwhites, there were all these....there were more birds that have now you know, I think the estimation is that there's maybe some people say 30%, some say 50%, less birds than there were 50 years ago. Margaret 45:59 That is so depressing. Janet 46:00 It's incredibly depressing. But when I was growing up, I would not know that if I hadn't read that, or hadn't talked to my dad about how many birds there were, or how many fish there were, or whatever, because I would think like this is how many how much of x there is, you know. And so when you grow up with less, you think less is normal. And we have generation after generation growing up with less and less and less. We have lost an incredible amount of biomass globally. And we don't always know that. So, what I can say like locally living somewhere where there's been like, I don't even know how many herbs schools over the past two decades, there have been so many herbs, schools, and so many foraging schools and places where people....and it just draws and attracts people who are interested in doing that kind of stuff. But also, if you're not already, you will probably will be if you stay here for long enough, I guess. Anyway, the impact on wild plant communities where plant walks happen often, where herbs schools take their students often has been very notable. And it's because, you know, we have like, there's just like, year after a year of alumni, of cohorts of students, of different people who have moved here who have gone and taken classes, and those people continue to visit those spots. Sometimes even if teachers have asked them not to. And they bring their friends, you know, and there's this whole, exponentially more people harvesting plants of certain kinds, there's certain ones that are specifically more exciting than others, probably. And so, just in seeing what's happened since I moved here with some of the more accessible spots with specific plant communities, I'm thinking of pedicularis specifically right now, which Wood Betony is another name for that herb, that's a plant that's very cool and easy to identify, but also has like sort of a relaxing, muscle relaxing feel to it. So people really like it cause it has a little bit like, body relax, feel. And so those patches have just been decimated. And when I see that I'm like, you know, a lot of herb schools, at least in what I was taught traditionally, it was like people would be like, "Go in. And you can have like, you can take about one out of every 10 plants." You know, and that would be like the maxim that we were taught at a certain point, 10%. And, but if everybody comes and takes 10%, what does that even mean? So, that is something that I've seen here specifically is like a cumulative effect of over harvest, over time. And it's increased not just with the people in the field that I'm in, but just with an increase in learning about wild plants and learning what they do. Because people want to take care of their own health or they want to feed themselves, you know, like, I mean, it's not coming from the worst place. It's just that when we're not in relationship and don't know, the baseline of what that patch looked like fifteen years ago, then we don't know that we're in a decimated area, or where we're with plants that are under stress. That's something that you know, from yearly visitation. Margaret 49:07 Okay, and so it seems like then the 'answer,' I hate saying the 'answer,' because I'm sure it's more complicated than anything I could say after that. But like, is this thing that you're talking about, about being in relationship with these plant communities, rather than a quick maxim about like, "Oh, go visit and just it's totally chill to take this stuff," versus like, knowing what's actually happening there and how things are changing. That makes sense. And then as you're saying, with like, a few exceptions, where you're like, "Look, it's fine to take plantain. Fuck it," or whatever. Janet 49:40 Yeah, right. Margaret 49:43 Okay. Yeah, it ties into this thing that I keep thinking back on is like this concept of like, the wild feels infinite, you know? Well, of course, I can't affect the number of...I mean, if you can even look at this, like in a negative sense, right? It's like, :"Oh, I can't affect the number of ticks in my yard." But you actually can. I know the number of ticks in my yard, my yard in particular, feels infinite. How can I possibly have an impact on the number of ticks? And there are ways that I could impact that number of ticks and like, so like, if I had guinea hens or whatever, and they ate a bunch of ticks, you could actually create a notable difference, even though it seems like you're digging from this infinite pool of ticks. This is a very gross metaphor. And so that makes sense that yeah, either these things that feel abundant, and as long as you take 10%, but you're not thinking about how everyone does it. I mean, the whole baseline shift thing, I like...nothing is more depressing to me than thinking about the lack of biodiversity as compared to a hundred, years ago, even. Janet 50:49 It's so wild. Margaret 50:51 Yeah. Which leads me to the sort of conclusion of like, I think I have a difference in opinion than a lot of my friends and a lot of my community, like, I have more of this, like, "Great, we all need to start growing food inside," like, this very, like opposite method of solving it, or rather, specifically, because I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, well, we'll all go forage," right? You know, as this like, "Ah, well, nature will provide for us," and it's kind of like, well, nature did provide for us, and then our culture, our settler culture, like fucked that up real bad. But, I like this thing that you're talking about, about like, one of the main ways to solve that, on a small scale, at least is to grow into community with the place that you're harvesting from, to not be extractive. Janet 51:42 I think that there has to be kind of a mix too. I mean, I agree with you, like, I encourage people to grow their own medicine and to grow their own food as much as they can. But, also, I can say that like as a...I'm a clinician, like, you know, I have a clinical practice with herbs. And once you actually see the volume of plant material it takes to keep even a few people on a formula, or on a tea, it's really wild. Like if I was not using some grown plants with also some weedy plants that I can just harvest, like, I don't know what I would do. And that's just me. Like, if we were all doing what I'm doing, then the amount of plant material would be pretty enormous. I mean, I think about how, you know, in China, it's amazing, they have still pretty intact herbal medicine tradition that's part of their medical system. I mean, it got homogenized after Mao, for sure, and changed, although they're still people who practice pre Maoist Chinese medicine, but they have an enormous amount of land given to a monoculture of growing herbs for that industry. And so, you know, when I have folks be like, "Well, we should just grow our own plants," I'm like, "Well, when we're actually, if you were actually talking about the scale of supporting a lot of people's health, that is a lot of land." And and for feeding, it's going to be even more or land, because the caloric intake we would all require is more than that, that we need with herbs, right? So,how much land are we talking? You know? Margaret 53:15 No, that that makes a lot of sense. One of the things you brought up at the beginning, that you said you wanted to return to and we're coming near the end, you were talking about how like more and more you're seeing maybe students coming to your school, because they're interested in herbalism. And they're interested in forging and wildcrafting out of economic necessity. Basically. Like, you know, I think about, you're talking about, like, your wildcrafted table at the farmers market where everything is like wildly expensive. No pun intended. And, you know, versus like, kind of the whole point of foraging is that it's free. Right? And I wonder if you want to talk more about that, about like...because I do think that there is even if I'm like, obviously there's a million problems with foraging, it does seem like it still could have a way to be useful to help people on an economic level as like food prices go through the roof and wages stagnate or disappear. And all that. Janet 54:11 I do, I do think it has a place. And I will say that like you know, just for the record in case my students are listening to that, there's always a fair number of people who have come in like staunchly anti wildcrafting as well. So there's definitely a pretty good mix. But, I but I've been noticing more and more every year there are more people that are like, "I think this is a survival skill," with the economic downturn that's happening, which is what you're referring to. And so I do think that wild foods that are abundant and weedy can be a really helpful supplement to other food. For sure. I think that actually trying to live off of it is challenging. That's something people will learn. But, you know, it is true that there's some things we get with wild foods that we do not get from the domesticated food that we eat normally and I should just point out that I think that unless people can afford to eat organic foods, especially if it's organic food with restorative agricultural practices, which is not a lot of organic food, we're usually eating food if it comes from the grocery store, and in some cases, even the farmers market that is coming from extremely depleted soil, because the pressures of capitalism, of the market require people just to like, not ever let the land be fallow. They just have to continue to pump the land and extract that food from it in ways even though they're growing the food. And so most of the food that we eat is pretty nutrient deficient, compared to what it would be in a more restorative agricultural system. Now wild food, if it's not in a place that's very polluted, that's a whole other topic that we should probably mention, is going to be growing out of a place that's not just having like a cycling of harvest over and over again. And so they tend to be more nutrient dense. So, if you could pick nettles in a place that doesn't have a lot of toxins in the soil, it's going to, they're going to be nettles, that actually have a lot more mineral content than the greens you get at the grocery store. The same is true for dandelion greens. So, while you might not be able to really like, bulk up your diet with a ton of calories from the wild, although you could, it just honestly takes a lot of time and energy that not everyone has. You will, even by supplementing a little bit with dandelion greens or other wild greens, you are going to actually get more of a nutritional impact. You'll get more minerals. You get this bitter flavor that's been mostly bred out in the domesticated greens and lettuces. There's not bitter any more. Bitterness actually has a purpose, which is that it helps the liver function, it helps with digestion. So, I do think that if people supplemented their diets with some wild food, it would be beneficial in more than just those calories and in more than just the money saved, because we are eating from such a depleted food system. So, this is all to say that as our budgets are being impacted by the level of inflation and how much food cost, which is just going to get worse is what it looks like, it's also just true that we're we're buying food that doesn't have as much nutrition as it should. You know? And so, you're getting more than just like that handful of greens on your salad, you're getting actually like pretty dense nutritional food. Margaret 57:35 That makes sense to me. At the beginning of the pandemic, I basically like lived off of my prepper stash, supplemented by wild greens for like, a month or so, which I wouldn't like immediately recommend anyone has like fun and joyous. But, I was really, really grateful, like none of my calories came from the wild greens, but the sense that I'm actually like taking care of my body came from the wild greens. Janet 57:59 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And that does change things. You know, I mean, I think that's what I would say, is I'm not sure how much it'll like reduce cost hugely at this point to be adding in a lot of other food, but that improvement in your health is going to be noticeable. Margaret 58:22 Okay, well, we're coming up on an hour. I'm wondering if there's anything in particular that we missed that you wish we had talked about or like? Janet 58:33 Oh, I do have Yeah, I do have one thing to talk about. So, this may also makes sense to you, having lived around here at some point, and it's that I was going to recommend that people read this essay by Robin Wall Kimmerer that's called "The Honorable Harvest" and I can send you a link to that because there's PDFs of that online, but she admits I was....Yeah, I was reviewing it today and she reminded me of something and it's that so, for a while, this is getting to be less the case, but for a while, within different herbs circles and foraging circles that I was adjacent to there was a sort of a nod towards respectful relationships with the plants you might be harvesting and Robin Wall Kimmerer says in her piece, like you know, "Always ask permission from the plant." But, there's something that I was seeing like pretty commonly in settler foragers and herbalist, which would be like just like a really quick like, "Is this okay?" to the plant and then they're like, "They said, "Yes,"" and then they would just go ahead and harvest very quickly, you know, and like, just like I swear, like immediate, like plants they'd never hung out with before like, this happened in front of me, like I mean, you know. And so, I had always been like kind of turned off by the exchange, well it wasn't really an exchange, but like by that whatever gesture, gesture towards pretending to have communication. Which it doesn't mean there's not communication but, there was this really awesome way that Robin Wall Kimmerer talked about it where she's just like, "You have to use both parts of your brain for that conversation. You're not just using the talking and listening, you have to also use the part of your brain that's assessing that circumstances, assessing the health of the plant, attention over time. It's not just about intuition and communication with the plant world. It's also actually about empirical understanding and paying attention," you know. And so to me, and what I've seen in my life is that like, I'm like, I sometimes know, it's not even appropriate to ask. I'm just like, "This standard is not doing okay. I'm not going to harvest plants here right now," you know. And so, the idea that all that we need is like a really brief exchange of like, "Is this cool? Cool. Got it," you know and move in. It's like, that's still very extractive. But, it makes you feel like you did something. Margaret 1:00:52 I mean, there's a really obvious comparison here to like the way that consent culture and sex is like not handled incredibly well. Janet 1:01:00 Sure. Margaret 1:01:00 Yeah, where people are like, "Whatever. I asked," versus like, "I should try and figure out how everyone actually feels." Janet 1:01:07 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So just to say that, like, it's more than asking, like asking, and listening,. Listening means actually listening over time. It's not an instant gratification listen, you know? Yeah, that's my last note, which would just be like to actually learn to listen and pay attention and observe and not...Unlearning extractive tendencies. And unlearning the entitlement that we all carry, live and breathe in settler colonial capitalism is a lot of work. And it requires patience and time. But also, I will say that if you see someone else behaving in a way that you're not that into, you know, understanding that probably yelling at them is not gonna make them change their mind or behavior very quickly. So, also to have patience with other people who were on different learning edges here with this, you know? Margaret 1:02:05 Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. Well, where can people...do you want people to find you? Janet 1:02:16 Yes, I have. So, I have a blog that's called Radical Vitalism with my partner, Dave. And our school is Terra Sylva School, which we run with Jen Stovall. I can put that stuff in, I'll send it to you to put in the show notes. And then we also have a podcast called The Book on Fire. And we're about to start our third season. And we're going to actually talk about the "Dawn of Everything." So, that should relate... Margaret 1:02:41 Oh, I love that book. Janet 1:02:42 Yeah, so good. So good. So, it relates to kind of some of what we're talking about at least. Margaret 1:02:46 Cool. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much. And I'm sure have you on again, at some point. Janet 1:02:54 Yeah. Thanks a lot. Margaret 1:02:55 Thank you so much for listening. if you enjoyed this podcast....Well, first of all, if you enjoyed hearing from Janet, I highly recommend that you check out the earlier episode with Janet and Dave about herbalism and herbalism for emergency medical needs and all of that. They have a lot to say. And if you enjoyed this episode, and you enjoy this podcast in general, please consider supporting us by telling people about the podcast and telling the internet about the podcast and telling algorithms about the podcast by rating, and reviewing, and subscribing, and all of that stuff that has a larger impact than one might expect. Much like killing ticks in your yard, you can also support us financially. This podcast pays its audio editor and the transcriptionist. And we're very proud to be able to do that work. And we are supported in that work by the people who support Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness on Patreon, the publisher that publishes us. That's what makes it a publisher. It's called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We have another podcast called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness that you can check out, that comes out every month and has different fiction, and memoir, and poetry, and essays, and all kinds of fun stuff that comes out once a month. And if you support us on Patreon, you'll get a zine in the mail every month. Well, if you support us at $10 or more on Patreon, you get a zine in the mail every month. And in particular, I would like to thank Aly and Paparouna and Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, Theo, Hunter, Sean, S.J., Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Kat J., Staro. Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the dog. You all make it possible, make the dream work. You're the team work...anyway, I will talk to you all soon and I hope you're doing as well as you can. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary Brooke talks with Alissa and Alex about horrors of the legal system. She walks through both of their legal ordeals from the circumstances of their targeting, arrests, court appearances, and current statuses. Alissa and Alex were both arrested separately in connection to violence from the far Right. Guest Info Alissa Azar (she/they) is currently in need of support to retain legal services. You can find her fundraiser at https://donorbox.org/help-alissa-get-proper-legal-defense. You can also find her on Instagram @r3volutiondaddy, or on Twitter @AlissaAzar. Alex (He/him) can be found on Mastodon @betacuck4life. Host Info Brooke can be found at Strangers helping up keep our finances intact and on Twitter and Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Surviving the Justice System with Alissa and Alex Brooke 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, your host for this episode. Today we are talking with a couple of wonderful leftists about their experiences with the American court system, and how they've been supported by their community and by mutual aid. Without revealing your names or any details, would each of you like to say, "hi" or "hello" to our audience? Alissa 00:37 Hi. Alex 00:40 Hello Brooke 00:45 All right, before we officially unveil today's guests, you know I gotta show some love to fellow members of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. So let's hear a little about one of those other cool pods. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. Brooke 01:52 And we're back. Friends, thank you for joining me today to talk about the injustice of our justice system. Would you please each actually introduce yourselves and share your pronouns? Alissa 02:02 My name is Alissa Azar. She/They. Alex 02:04 My name is Alexander Dial. He/him. Brooke 02:12 Well, thank you. So both of these friendly, lovely folks have had to deal with, as I just said, the injustice of our justice system. They've both been arrested and charged with crimes. And Alex has been through kind of the whole system: jail, bail, going to court, living on probation, including having to do community service and reporting to a probation officer. And Alissa is kind of in the midst of that grinding system with some uncertainty in the future of what's going to happen. So, why don't we go ahead and you know, if each of you want to take a few minutes and kind of tell us a little bit about your backstory of, you know, the circumstances in which you were arrested and what happened there and, Alex, it's your turn to go first. Alex 02:56 Okay, yeah, I was arrested on August 17, 2019. At sort of a big deal to-do street event here in Portland, Oregon. Much Ado was made about this thing, by the far Right, mostly from out of town CHUDs you know. As usual, it's pretty typical for most of the time for us to get invaded....Although it's probably worth noting that they haven't been around lately. I got picked up after a couple of well publicized confrontations. Probably the most famous one was the the bus incident, which I suppose we can get into in detail in a bit here. But, I was arrested that day, and taken into custody, released and then subsequently taken back into custody a little later under some, I don't know probably typically shitty circumstances with regards to how our legal system works here, especially when it comes to cases that are media sensitive, I guess you might say. And today is actually kind of a special day with regards to all of that, which is something else we'll get into I suppose when the time comes, but I've been put through the wringer and am just now getting out the other end here nearly five years later. Brooke 04:21 Yikes. Okay, I'm gonna circle back to more details of the of the 'bus incident' in a second. But Alissa, if you want to tell us a little bit of your story, too, and feel free to throw in some more details to Alissa 04:32 Yeah, so I probably should have said this in my intro, but I am an independent journalist. I don't work for anyone but myself and the community and my situation, actually it was another, you know, fascist invasion. There was a counter protest to a demonstration that was going on countering the Proud Boys and I was there that day as a journalist. I was reporting and covering the event. And it was it was a pretty wild and scary day. I'll get into more detail about that too, later. But anyways, I would say like, maybe five or six months or so after that day had passed, I had received an indictment in the mail notifying me that a grand jury found me guilty and that the DA was pressing charges, including felony charges. And, yeah, it's been, it's been really, really difficult, you know, that in conjunction with, you know, something else that happened more recently, just finding myself being targeted for the journalism and, you know, the coverage that I do provide, both by the State and by, you know, just citizens of the United States that are, you know, members of the far Right. And yeah, it's been Hell to say the least, and not in a good way, not the good kind of Hell. Brooke 06:12 Yeah, I should have said this more at the top too, just to really emphasize how grateful I am that you're here and willing to talk about it when you're, you know, in the middle of going through this hell. I mean, that's I that's got to be incredibly difficult. And I'm just really grateful that you were willing to make the time and talk about it with us. Alissa 06:31 Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate that. My my trial is finally set. It's just a few months away. My trials in April. So yeah, definitely a mixed bag of feelings and emotions, for sure. Brooke 06:45 Yeah, I can only imagine. Alex, I want to circle back to you. Alex 06:52 Sure. Brooke 06:54 Because I think the details of the bus incident. People probably heard the story or will remember it. I certainly remember seeing the photo which was some what iconic. If you want to just briefly talk about what happened on that day. Alex 07:09 Sure. Yeah, um, you know, it was a day like any other. I woke up, donned to my armor, stepped into the streets to confront an invasion of fascists from out of town. You know, regular Thursday stuff. That particular day, I mean, I've been to a lot of protests, I have been an activist for longer than I've been an adult and, you know, things do get sort of predictably hairy, but everybody remembers how the tone in the streets really shifted, probably starting right around 2016. You know, I don't really remember that sort of ruckus, since like, the WTO stuff back in the day, you know, I mean, I mean, barring like a few other flashes in the pan, but the situation out there, just kept escalating, you know, for years, and I was down in Southern California, for the first part of that time, you know, and then I moved up here to Portland, and I was like, "Well, I'm still an American. So I guess I'm gonna get back out there." So out there I went. And that day was a mess. You know, I mean, everybody remembers how....The way that the Right had been touting this event as like a 'bloodbath.' And I need it in their words, "Buy guns," said Joe Biggs, you know, "Bring ammunition. Get concealed carry permits." He was showing off a baseball bat covered in spikes that had Trump's name on it, specifically related to this event. That day, August 17, 2019. You know, they were talking about like, 'taking the the streets of Portland,' and like, 'cleansing' them. I mean, this is all their language, you know, I'm quoting them. So we were, you know, understandably pretty alarmed out here. And, I wasn't running around out there with an affinity group at the time. You know, I had been out in the streets before then. So people, some people recognized me, but Brooke 09:28 You were doing group OpSec wearing your betacuck shirt too? Alex 09:32 Well, you know, a lot of people ask me about that. And the answer I usually give people is, you know, I don't think it's always appropriate to make ourselves small and to shrink back from these threats. You know, there's a time to present yourself and I feel like they were talking about coming here and murding us. And I was like, "Well, at least they're gonna recognize me. They're gonna know who they're trying to kill," you know? Brooke 10:09 Yeah. Alex 10:12 So, you know, the day really wasn't too extraordinary. I mean weirdly enough. I mean, it's crazy to say that now, but at the time, in terms of a Portland Street event, during those years, it was like, not that weird. In fact, kind of low key. There weren't really that many really gnarly confrontations I was party to or saw. But, things got really pretty wild when the Nazi bus came back. A lot of people don't know that they they left. And by the time I confronted them along with, you know, many other Portlanders up on the bridge. They had left Portland and had turned around and come back to reconfront us. Brooke 10:59 And then for listeners who might not know, you know, talk about what specifically happened with you and them in that bus. Alex 11:06 So, we should start, I think by talking about who was on the bus, because this has been, you know, contested information in certain parts of the internet. The people on that bus were primarily hardcore Neo Nazis, from a group called the American Guard. These were not just like Trump supporters or Second Amendment enthusiasts, although they were both, you know what I mean? These people were members of a hate group, tied to the Vinlinders Social Club, which is another group of Neo Nazis founded by Brian James. And they've been linked to a handful of murders here in the United States. So they're very dangerous people. And I knew who they were. That's the thing. I knew who was on that bus. So, when I saw them on the bridge, after having already watched them leave town, I was like, "They came back." You know? There were some people down there with me in the streets, a couple of people I had, you know, sometimes just sort of snowball with people that you meet out there and your roll together for safety, you know? So I was out there with a couple of people I had met, and I saw the bus up there on the on the bridge, and we talked about it, and I was like, "That's the American Guard." You know, "They came back," and we talked it over a little bit. And I said, "Well, let's go get them." And so we went up there. And we didn't actually assault the bus, which was a popular meme at the time of Right wing media, espoused in particular by our very own fascists propagandist, Andy Ngo, we didn't attack the bus, unless you count like a couple of thrown plastic half full water bottles and me flipping them the bird, you know, people stood around, they shouted at the bus, we heckled them. And then they opened the doors. And the first person who came out of that bus had an eight inch blade in his right hand. They had been brandishing both a pistol and a hammer through the windows before they stepped outside. So, we knew they were armed. The doors open, they came outside, and for better or for worse, an elderly man who was among us rushed to the doors, and apparently startled the first Nazi, the one with the knife, who fell on his ass just immediately. Alex 13:55 Right, yeah. And a little tussle ensued between this old man and this Nazi. And during that scuffle, the man in the bus, one of the other Neo Nazis, an American Guard member named Mark Kwan, the one who had been brandishing the hammer through the windows, he stepped into the doorway above the fight going on in the door of the bus and started swinging this claw hammer down at the skull of this elderly man, who at that point was losing the fight that that he had gotten into, and was in the process of being abducted into the bus by the formerly knife wielding Nazi who had dropped his MAGA hat. I saw what was happening. I set down my water bottle, which was made of metal you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt. So, I ran up there and I seized the hammer in mid swing from Mark Kwan. Mr. Kwan. And together with some of my allies from Portland, we wrestled it away. The Nazis fell back into the bus. They released the elderly man. I tossed their hammer back inside, where it you know, allegedly glanced Mr. Kwan, although there are no victims in my case, and nobody was ever able to contact him for some reason. Yeah, it's crazy. Brooke 13:55 Yay! Brooke 15:34 Mysterious, Mr. Kwan. Alex 15:35 Yes, it's wild. Yes, that Mr. Kwan, if he exists, that was written in my case file by my attorney, "Mr. Kwan, if he exists." And this prosecution never followed up on whether he exists. The door is closed. I kicked in one of the panels on the doors, you know, just having witnessed and attempted murder in process. My blood was a little up. I do admit it. And a nameless hero released a cloud of tear gas into the bus and the bus sped away down the completely open lane in front of them that they could have taken at any time. And yeah, that was the story. That's the Bus Incident. The whole confrontation took, I don't know, maybe six seconds, perhaps. And it's informed my life for nearly five years. Brooke 16:28 Yeah. Were you immediately arrested at that point? Alex 16:30 I was not immediatly arrested. I was arrested nearly an hour and a half later. Brooke 16:37 Okay. Alex 16:38 Yeah, I had an opportunity to help some other people. Brooke 16:41 Yeah. So that's interesting. It was still the same day, same event. But, a little while later in that, and at the time, were you arrested for the bus incident, specifically? Or for---[Alex interupts] Alex 16:54 Yeah. So, that's a really interesting contrast to Alissa, what you were saying because, you know, you went to the event, and you went home, and it was months later. So, I'm curious if you are able to talk at all about what actually happened the day of the event, and then what you were later accused of doing and charged with? Alex 16:54 I'm assuming so. It's tough to say. The the paperwork I got is a little unclear as to what the probable cause was. It cites reports that the Portland Police had received reports from people.... I mean, the truth is that Andy Ngo poached that footage from Elijah Schaefer. And they gave it directly to the Portland Police, who took it as evidence and snatched me up at the first opportunity. But, it might not have been that video that did it. It could have been something else they referenced. The paperwork isn't really clear on that. And in my case, is closed now, so I can talk about it all. But, it's tough to say really what it is precisely that got the cops to get me, but when they tackled me, this gaggle of bacon-backs, [Brooke and Alissa laugh] you know, and stomped me into the pavement and tried to tase me, but couldn't because I was wearing a bulletproof vest, they told me I was under arrest for assault. So, you know, I mean, but that's really all they're gonna tell you. The cops are not really well known for, for knowing things. Alissa 17:32 Yeah, I'll share as much as I can without, you know, like I said, before, my situation is ongoing and my trial's in April. So and it's, you know, it's not that I have anything to hide at all, but you know, we, we all know, here, how the State works and how they love us everything and anything against us. So yeah, as I mentioned earlier, the event that I was documenting and reporting on was a counter to the Proud Boys. And this was in September of 2021. So, it was during a time when things were really, really tense in the pacific northwest. This is after, you know, a lot of growing tension, a lot of escalated escalation from the fascists, you know, after being used to night after night at protests of them doing drive bys and throwing, you know, IEDs and pipe bombs at us and just, you know, just a bunch of shit that had been going on and in Portland and surrounding areas. So yeah, we were we were at a park. And also, I just want to disclaimer, my memory is like, pretty fucking shitty, especially since then. That day, I actually got punched in the head by A Proud Boy who's an MMA fighter and like four times my size, and I got a major concussion that I'm like still dealing with. And then also, trauma hasn't really been great for my memory. But yeah, we were all in a park. And the group of leftists who were there was not very large. I can't remember off the top of my head, how many people were there. But, compared to other events, it was a relatively small crowd. And up until the point that I'm about to get to, there was just a lot of like, back and forth, yelling and whatnot. And eventually, the Proud Boys got closer and closer. And the group of leftist somehow ended up being surrounded. There was basically a circle of Proud Boys just trying to intimidate everyone and up to this point, even when everyone was circled, they were still just standing there in an attempt to intimidate everybody,. Just trying to look tough. And what really kind of sparked things off is I remember I was kind of standing like in the middle of the circle and there was like a group of people in front of me who allegedly...I don't know if it's a flag that they had or if they stole it from the Fasc, but I believe that it was an American flag, and they set it on fire on the ground. Brooke 21:35 That's what that flags for. [Laughs] Alissa 21:39 And I was kneeling down filming and then it just like popped off so quick. As soon as they saw that the flag was on fire, they got so triggered. They came in and like pushed the people right in front of me and like, just, yeah, that's when kind of shit hit the fan....Like, fuck, where do I go from here? There's just so much that happened. Alex 22:07 You know, the reason they did that...I mean, I don't mean to interrupt your flow here, but they.... Alissa 22:11 No, go ahead. Alex 22:12 The reason they did that is because they have their own camera people. They've got all these amatuer, you know, right wing Grifters trying to sell footage, and also the Proud Boys and their ilk, they sell this footage to each other to get each other to join. So, they see Antifa burning a flag. And if no one retaliates, they all look weak. Alissa 22:38 Yeah, 100%. Alex 22:39 Yeah, so that's why they rushed y'all right there. You know? I mean, it's not a justification, but that's the deal. Alissa 22:46 Yeah, they definitely have a game plan for sure. And yeah, I just remember things being really chaotic. There's a lot of people that got injured that day. Yeah, at one point....I mean, before that, like, I was like walking around, filming, taking pictures. And like, I was just getting threats left and right. Like, for what? Like being a photographer?Like what? Like, yeah, this one lady kept being like, "You and me, we're going to tango." And it's so funny, because it's the lady who like, all the Right wingers and Andy Ngo, keep calling like an 'innocent bystander.' And she just kept, like following me, and she's like, "You and me, we're gonna tango." And I'm like, "Girl, I'm not here to fight anybody. Like, just leave me alone. Let me take my fucking picture." Things just. Yeah, things just got pretty crazy. Some of them were like, going after individuals to like, you know, attack them violently. Other people were going towards...It wasn't a gazebo, but there was like this covered area where a bunch of people had stuff at. I had some of my stuff there, too. I remember having like a charger and I think my phone was over there. And like, people were going over there like, some of the Fascists were going over there and like stealing signs and stealing people's shit and stuff. And yeah, it was just really bad. One of the last things I remember, like I said, I got punched in the head. I didn't faint or anything, but like, it was a really bad punch. And I stood up right away. And at that point, the cops had like, come in. And they declared it and unlawful assembly, I believe, Alex 24:45 After you got assaulted? Brooke 24:48 Of course, as they do. Alissa 24:51 Yeah, they declared it an unlawful assembly. It was really weird because the Leftist were trying to leave, like out of the park and go the way that the cops are telling them to go, because it was definitely not a situation where people could like stand their ground. Like, I think that was like the smart thing to do at the time. And I just remember, like, I was being escorted by a medic. And like, I think it was two medics actually holding me. I don't know, I couldn't really see much or like, whatever. But I just remember thinking like, "What the fuck is happening?" because, like, as we're trying to get out of there, and the cops were coming in declaring it an unlawful assembly, it wasn't any longer just the Proud Boys that everyone had had that confrontation with beforehand, like leading up to that moment. All of a sudden, there was this new group of Proud Boys, larger than the group that had already been there, all marching in together with like shields and weapons, like, coming towards us, like walking through the cops, walking with the cops. And it's just like, it was just like, the perfect example of like, "Cops and clan go hand in hand." And it was like they were coming towards the group together, even though they had just declared it unlawful. Like, these guys were still welcome to come in. And mind you, like, you know, most people were just like I said, they're just trying to get out of there. Or you know, there was also quite a few people who were hurt that day. So yeah, it was just it was chaotic in the worst way possible. Brooke 26:37 Yeah. And so then a few months go by, and I think you said it was a letter that came in the mail that let you know? Alissa 26:43 Yeah, I got a letter in the mail that said I was indicted. Alex 26:48 You're a crimer now. [Laughs] Alissa 26:54 [Starts] Sorry...I'm like, trying to separate my charges from like, my most recent, bullshit arrest. Alex 27:00 Oh, God, no, I can totally relate to that. Alissa 27:05 I'm being charged with Relony Riot, Unlawful Use of Tear Gas, and Disorderly Conduct. Alex 27:15 Tear gas? Like 'you're' deploying tear gas? Alissa 27:18 And the best part about it is like my uterus is literally beyond fucked up because of the frequent exposure to the State's deployment of tear gas.... Alex 27:29 [Interuptiing] Yeah, that's right. I totally forgot about that. That's like a thing. Alissa 27:35 Oh, it's definitely a thing. I know multiple people who...[trails off] Yeah, I'm the bad guy here. Brooke 27:44 Okay, So after you get this letter in the mail, I assume it's telling you have to appear at some point, probably or something like that? Yeah? Alissa 27:52 Yeah. Brooke 27:53 And so then you didn't you know, didn't have to go to jail. You didn't have to post bail for that. But they did. You just got picked up by the police, right? They pulled you in and harassed you a time or two. Do you feel like talking about that? Can you talk about that? Alissa 28:06 Yeah, you're talking about the most recent arrest? Brooke 28:14 Yes. Alissa 28:18 So yeah, that. Let's see, I'm like "What is time?" That happened probably like just under a month ago. It was the day after Christmas. And I was pulling in to park in front of my place. And the second I parked, I see this white SUV. it didn't look like a police vehicle. It was just a white SUV. It was coming towards me from the opposite direction. And as soon as I was opening my door, it stopped and parked right next to my car. The sirens go on. And then at that point, there was an additional four to five cop cars that were parked on the side of the street. All undercover vehicles. Alex 29:14 [Exclaiming in incredulity] Four to five?! Alissa 29:16 Yeah, yeah. And all of their sirens and their lights turned on. And I was super confused. I have no idea what this could be about. So yeah, they...[trails off] I'm like, how into detail do I go? Again, this is also like an ongoing thing. This is very recent. So... Brooke 29:16 Yeah, I'm more just looking for like, what the experience of being you know, arrested was like, you know, like, I feel like if I was in that moment, I would be like, "Are they coming from the guy next to me? Is there someone over there?" because it would be hard to believe that that many police had shown up for a little old me Alex 30:00 [Joking] You warrant that sort of turnout. I mean, come on. Wow. Alissa 30:04 For sure. It was very bizarre. At the moment, I was kind of like, I would say I was mainly just really fucking confused. Especially because they would not tell me why I was like...First I was like, "Am I being pulled over? Like, what's going on?" And then they had me get out of the car. They wouldn't tell me anything. It felt like I was being kidnapped, which I was kidnapped. And, you know, I went to the precinct. Still did not tell me like what was going on. They said that they wanted to question me. I said, "Lawyer." The questioning never happened. They didn't like that. [laughs] It wasn't until after....so we went to the precinct and then they took me to the Justice Center. It wasn't until after I was booked that I even found out what my charges are, which got changed like a million times. But yeah, it was really scary. Because that was almost a full day. Because when I when they picked me up, it was quite early in the morning. And that whole day, I didn't know, why I was in there. I didn't know anything. I just knew that they had me and they have the power to do whatever the fuck they want. So I was terrified. I, you know, I was like, I have no way to like, contact anyone and tell them what's going on. It was like, you know, my partner is probably trying to reach me, and is like, "What the fuck is happening?" Yeah, again, like, a very mixed bag of emotions and feelings. But yeah, that type of stuff is really scary. Especially when, you know, let's be realistic, when you're in that kind of situation we don't really have any power to do anything. And it fucking sucks, feeling so helpless and hopeless. And you know, they know that. Yeah, yeah. Like where do I start? Alex 32:10 I gotta tell you that, the story of that arrest there. That's worse than I thought it was going to be. I wasn't anticipating it to be quite so persistently merciless. I mean, they can just detain you and not tell you shit. But, a lot of the time, you know, they don't hang on to you for the whole day and never say anything to you. I mean, because the other thing is that cops cops are cruel. But, also they're like, apathetic, you know, like some, some ass wipe pig is going to say something to you, you know, or someone who's just working a desk that day is just going to be like, "Oh, here," you know, and say whatever. Yeah, and it's wild to me that, um, that they were so dedicated to keeping you in the dark that day, the whole day. Yeah, it's intense. It's worse than I thought it was Alex 33:06 Yeah, it's bad. Brooke 33:09 So, again, I'm interested in the in the contrast here, because Alex, if you want to talk about, you know, you were arrested that day, we started talking about that. So you kind of knew why you were being arrested. But, then you also got booked and I actually don't know if you've spent some jail time right then or if you got out sooner or what happened. But if you want to tell yours? Alex 33:35 Fucking Cops. Alex 33:35 Yeah, yeah, the story of what happened to me on the on the day. That was the day. They didn't really seem all that interested in me, actually. I mean, they kicked my ass a little bit, of course, like they do. Like the arrest was like six officers and they like stepped on my fingers and tried to tase me and got frustrated when they couldn't and then, you know, knelt on my head and stuff. And I was like, "What am I under arrest for?" And they answered me with one word, and they just went "Assault" and I went, "Who?" because you know, I mean, it had been a busy day. So, they took me in that day, and I was stuck in holding. I never actually made it to jail proper, you know, I just sat. When they took me to the station, they stripped me down completely to my underwear. They put me in a paper jumpsuit. Oh, yeah, they got me. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, they saw they saw at all. I have a bunch of boyfriends down at the police station. Alex 33:44 No, no, no, no, it didn't go down like that, I promise. But they stuck me in a cell. They left those plastic fucking cuffs on me honestly. Well, you know if I'm starting from the beginning, honestly, the first thing that happened was they they threw me in paddy wagon and let me sit in there for, I don't know, an hour and a half, maybe. And they through a woman in the room next to me, because you know, those are side by sides. It's like two long horse stalls next to each other. And you can't see into the other one. But there are these vents, these corrugated vents, you know. So there's air exchange, and you can hear everything, but you can't see. And there's someone in there who's crying and screaming in pain. I mean. Alissa 35:31 Oh my God. Alex 35:32 Oh, yeah. Like somebody was hurt, you know? So, I started talking to her, and I was like, "Hey, hey, what's happened to you?" You know, and she was like, "My shoulder. My shoulder is broken." Alissa 35:46 Oh, my God Alex 35:47 I was like, "Are you sure it's broken?" And she was like, "Yes." And I was like, "Did the police do it to you?" And she said, "Yes". And I was like, "Do they have you in cuffs?" And she was like, "Yes." And I was like, "Okay." Um, so I just started talking to her, you know. I told her my name, and I just started to talk to her, you know, and I was like, "Look, they're gonna take us somewhere, and you're, you're probably going to get medical attention. But I mean, they might not give it to you." So I was like, "The thing you got to do is stay calm and just breathe, you know, because the pain is not going to stop, but you can manage it. So you got to breathe." So we sat there, and we breathed. And we drove eventually, I mean, after a long, long time, but she was in a ton of pain. And later I reconnected with her after a long time, nine months or something. And it turned out to be...Well, well, I don't know that I have her permission to talk about her. But she made a name for herself twerking on the streets. She was twerking on the streets that day. And, you know, I doubt I doubt she would mind being brought up here, but I don't have her explicit permission. So, you know. And she said, she'd been looking for me. She was like, "I didn't know that was you that was talking to me." And when we pulled over into the police station, I started yelling at the cost. "I was like, You need to get her out of here and get her help. She's hurt." And they just left her in there. They took me out and they processed me right away. And they just left her in there. And she's in there. Like, I mean, practically screaming still, you know, she was a lot of pain. It was it was terrible. And we'd been sitting in there for over an hour. Yeah, and then I couldn't feel my thumbs for a couple of days after that ride because they didn't take the cuffs off. They didn't take my cuffs off even after they brought me into the building and processed me and stripped me down. They left those fucking cuffs on me. They took them off, they put them back on and then they stuck me in a freezing cold concrete room in a paper jumpsuit. And Detective Clifton came in and asked me for my side of the story, and I said "Lawyer." But actually what I told him that I wanted to wait for my attorney, and then he came in later with some other cop who was really rude to me. And then Clifton came back and spoke to me again and he was really nice. And I was like, "Oh, so you're good cop, right?" They didn't come back to talk to me again after that. Brooke 35:57 Yeah, of course. Alex 36:19 Call them out. Brooke 37:56 So, you were in the holding you said for the whole day... Alex 38:28 I was. I was there until the night time yet. Brooke 38:42 Okay, and then did you get out after that? Or did they then move you over into jail or? Alex 38:51 I walked out on OR, our I walked out on my Own Recognizance that day. They stomped my ass into the street. They put me in a paper jumpsuit. They zip tied me and then they and they immediately lost my shoes. Like when they let me out, they kept my clothes because my clothes were evidence you see. Yeah, I mean, I just think they liked the way I smelled. But they kept my clothes. They lost my shoes and then they turned me loose. My roommate at the time, he came to get me and I was dressed like an extra from Miami Vice. I had these giant like two big pants on, like jeans and this huge like vaporwave Hawaiian shirt, and and these orange prison crocs. You know they give you these like foam sandals to wear when you're in jail. I still have those. Yeah, I use them to I use them when I shovel shit out of the barn. They're perfect. Brooke 39:56 Well, I have a person close to me who has been arrested many times comes in and pretty much every time there's some piece of something that was on him: clothing, shoes, something that was in a pocket, whatever, goes missing. Alissa 40:09 So weird. For me it was cash. Brooke 40:13 Oh. Weird. Alex 40:14 I got my cash back. I had like 30 bucks or something. I got that back. Alissa 40:19 You know what's fucked up too is some comments helped host a fundraiser for me like, a few weeks before my arrest for my legal fees for my trial that's coming up in April. And I had around 2k in cash. And i didn't realize this till recently, because I was searching every single space, and every single like drawer, and just wanted to make sure, but yeah, they when they raided my house they took all of that cash. Brooke 41:00 That is the thing that they will do. Alissa 41:02 Here's the thing, though. They didn't...It's not listed on the evidence. They stole it. Alex 41:07 Oh, that's what you call, that's what you call stealing. Alissa 41:09 They actually actually stole that cash, along with intentionally destroying my camera and equipment. Alex 41:16 That's the old piggie discount. You know, now that I'm thinking about that day in particular, I'm recalling that, my partner just reminded me, that at first, the cops had said to my roommates that I was being held, and they were like, talking about, like, $3,000 bail or something, like a bunch of money to get me out, but here's the thing, when they were having that conversation with them, I was already out and I was waiting to get picked up. I was just out there waiting for... But I had no phone and no money, you know, so I was just sitting there, but the cops were like, just wrong. Like either they're full of shit, or they're incompetent. Either way. So, it's like. Alissa 42:02 I mean both are true. Alex 42:06 I'm standing out there in like, you know, my prison Crocs and my shitty clothes, but I still have those clothes too. Why would I throw them away? Brooke 42:16 We should auction them off for Alissa's legal fees. Alex 42:21 God, you know, I mean, if anybody's a size 49 in pants, and a medium in shirts then absolutely. Alissa 42:31 Wow. Brooke 42:33 Excellent. Alex 42:33 Gotta love them. Brooke 42:35 You know, Alex, do I remember correctly though, that you did have to post bail at some point? Alex 42:39 See, here's the thing, when they released me on OR, the day of, they let me out that night, right. And it was like my charges were bullshit. I had like Attempted Assault II and Disorderly Conduct, or something like that. They were buccus , charges, nonsense charges, right. And I don't have a criminal record. So, they were just like, "Okay, bye." And I walked out. And then later, just before I was going to be arraigned. I got, like right before my arraignment, and this is a bit of a jump forward in this story, because a couple other weird things happened with the police like just coming to my house and unmarked cars and stuff like that. Alissa 43:25 Yeah Alex 43:26 Yeah, it was real weird. You know, Alissa, the story you told me it kind of rings a bell. But, I got a call from my public defender at the time, who, this was the night before my arraignment about a month after my first arrest. And he was like, "Hey, your charges have been altered. And some of them have been amplified, and you have new charges." And I was like, "Okay, what does that mean?" And he was like, "Well, here's the charges." And he lays them out for me. And it's like Assault II, Riot x2, like it's a it's a litany of felonies and a Measure 11 charge. And I'm like, "Okay, what does this mean?" He goes, "You're going to jail tomorrow." Yeah, and so they didn't tell him about this until like, 4:45pm just before the whole Justice Center closed the night before my arraignment the next day at like 9:15am. So I have like 16 hours to get my entire life in order to get ready for going away and having a bail of like, $25,000. And I was like, Okay, I guess this is like the story of what happens to me. Yeah, and then I was in jail. And while I was in jail, I was I was subjected to what's called a 'Secret Indictment," wherein they were bring you into a room without your attorney and hit you with new charges. And anything you say during that process can be used against you in court if you go to trial, but you don't have representation, but that's okay for some reason. And also, you're not in a courtroom, you're in a tiny room with a phone looking at a TV screen at a courtroom somewhere else in the city. And that doesn't violate Habeas Corpus, I guess? [sarcastically] And I got several new charges, two of which were also felonies. And my bail overnight became over $500,000. Alissa 45:36 [Sarcastically] This country is so cool. Alex 45:41 It was great. It was great. And I was like, "I love being an Oregonian." Yeah, I think when you when you're in jail, they don't tell you anything, you know, like, so that morning, like 4:30am some guard is like shoving me in the side with a flashlight. And I wake up like, "Ah!" you know, because I'm in jail, and I don't know anybody. And they go, "You got a meeting," I was like, "What the fuck? like, I have a meeting," you know, so they get you up, and then they strip you down and look in your butt. And then they send you out into the hall with a bunch of other dudes, and presumably, who all just had their butts locked in. So, you have at least that much in common. You're butt buddies. And then you go down the hall to this big room, and you sit in there with there was like, I think 20 men in this room, and it's just a big naked concrete room with a bench and these blistering fluorescent lights and a toilet. There's nothing between the toilet and the rest of the room. Like if you need to go, you got an audience. You know, yeah. It's your recital. And, I sat there. We all sat there for nearly two hours before anything happened. Just sit there. And you know, these dudes in there who like met and knew each other. They were like, "Yo, man, what's up?" and they're telling these hilarious stories about knife fights. And yeah, I actually, it was kind of a funny story, but it was about knives, so I don't know how funny it was. And then eventually, this guard comes in, he opens the door and I swear this is true. He says this. He goes, so he must do this every time. I'm sure of it. Right. He loves his job. He goes, "Gentlemen, welcome to the busiest courtroom in Multnomah County." And I'm like, "Courtroom? We're in a giant urinal? We're gonna latrine, dude?" So he starts...He grabs dudes two at a time. And it takes another several hours. So, we're all just sitting in this room for...we've been awake all of us since like, 4:30. By the time I go into this tiny hallway and enter a carpeted room with a TV screen and a phone in it, it's like 8. You know, I sit down, I pick up the phone, there's some attorney there and a judge. The attorney does not represent me. He is in fact a fucking prosecutor. And there's a judge who, I don't even remember the judges name, it's all my paperwork somewhere, Silver, maybe? And I got slapped with the several new charges, a couple of them felonies, one of them another Measure 11 charge. And then they gave me some paperwork. And they sent me the fuck out. And then my public defender contacted me eight hours later that night to say he just heard that that happened. Brooke 48:30 Wow. Alex 48:31 It's a good time. Brooke 48:33 Man. Some wild as shit. Alex 48:37 Yeah, right. Especially when you look at the severity of these crimes, right? It's like, I mean, I still have all the paperwork. It says right at the top, 'Secret indictment.' And I'm like, "What the blue fuck is a secret indictment?" and all it really means is they don't have to disclose it to defense before they indict you. They don't tell your lawyer. They just do it. And then your lawyer finds out at their convenience essentially. Brooke 49:01 Good. That's got to be at least a chapter title in your autobiography. Alex 49:04 Yeah, "Welcome to the Busiest Courtroom in Multnomah County." Yeah. Yeah, and my bail that that morning went from around $227,000 to over $540,000. And I was like, Well, I thought I was fucked last night. Brooke 49:28 [Joking] Now, you're the secret son of a billionaire. So you made bail just fine, right? The illegitimate boy of an heiress or something? Alex 49:41 [Laughing] All those things are true. Yeah, I may be the most interesting Antifa member there ever was. Brooke 49:49 So you laughed at that half million dollars and lit it on fire and walked out? Alex 49:54 I did. When I laughed, I didn't make a sound, just an emoji floated out over my. Everybody got it. That's how it went down. Brooke 50:06 Oh, okay, so but more seriously, you did have to post bail? And you did post bail? Alex 50:11 I did. Yes. I had to borrow a great deal of that money. And the rest of it was money that I had saved. It was my savings. So I became poor. I mean, I was already pretty poor, but I came like poor. Brooke 50:27 Okay, did you have people in your life who loaned it to you? Or, you know, how did you...How were you able to? Alex 50:33 I was able to borrow some of it from...an old friend of mine loaned me a great deal of it, actually, at no interest. So I mean, it really is who you know, I gotta tell you. And I mean, looking back, I don't know where I'd be without her, because my hearing, my sentencing hearing was three years later. I'd have been just locked up until whenever. Brooke 51:04 Yeah, if you hadn't been able to come up with bail, you would just be sitting there that whole time? Alex 51:09 [Sarcastically] I mean, you know, that's justice. Brooke 51:15 Yeah, that's how that works. Alex 51:18 It is, though, it is how that works. You know, when I was in there, I met a guy, I met...Well, I met a lot of dudes in there. But I met this one guy who had been in, just in County there, just right there, you know, in Inverness for 17 months for a DUI. Brooke 51:37 Holy cow. Alex 51:39 He was just in jail. Brooke 51:41 [Sarcastically] I mean, people who drive drunk should be in jail forever. That's my personal opinion. So that's, that's totally fine. Nothing wrong with our Justice system. That's the proper way to deal with problems. Alex 51:51 [Sarcastically] I suppose. Yeah, we can infer that from that. That sounds reasonable. Brooke 51:57 No counseling, whatsoever. Don't try and help them. Alex 52:01 No, no, helping people is not what we do. Brooke 52:03 No, not at all. Okay, moving on from that fun. So, you have both talked about having lawyers and I'm gonna flip back to Alissa here. Is your representation court appointed? Or have you been able to find a different private attorney? or what have you, to represent you? Alissa 52:25 Yeah. So, for my upcoming trial in April, I was, I was able to, you know, get, get a private attorney, and, you know, pay for retainer, and I'm super grateful for that, especially now, because for, uh, for my new bullshit that's going on, I have a public defender. And I'm very aware of, you know, the shortage right now and how spread thin that they are. And it's really unfortunate, but also, you know, from, from my perspective of like, needing help, it fucking sucks. So, I am so grateful that I was able to get those attorneys on retainer. And honestly, if it wasn't for this community, that's not something that I would have been able to do. Brooke 53:13 What do you mean by that? I asked as though I don't know the answer. Alissa 53:22 So, Antifa International was able to help me with a good portion of my retainer, and the rest of it came from fundraising from the community. And, you know, just different people in a Leftist space, different mutual aid groups, you know, boosting that fundraiser and all that, you know, that that was a huge help, you know, and it's still something that I'm raising funds for. I owe my lawyer, fuck, over $22,000 as of right now, that's a lot of fucking money that yeah...I've never seen that much money in my life. And so yeah, if it wasn't for, you know, fundraising efforts and stuff....It's, yeah, I would be fucked. Alex 54:16 Huge. Same. You know, my private representation was secured entirely by community donations. All of it. Alissa 54:24 Really incredible. Alex 54:26 Yeah, I had a public defender until we set up the GoFundMe and raised the money to get the representation who ultimately got me the deal that I did. It was just 100% Community funded. Brooke 54:43 Now, did you guys have to both put in a lot of time and work for yourselves to do the GoFundMes or have other people been a part of creating those and getting the word out there and such? Alex 54:56 I was in jail for most of that. My partner and my close friends spearheaded the handling of all that stuff. I was like, completely incapacitated. You can't do shit in jail. Everything that you need done in the outside world has to be handled by someone else. All of it. So, it was mostly my partner. And, you know...but I mean, word had sort of spread about what it happened to me. And of course, there was there was the footage and the picture. So, in a way, it was kind of a double edged sword that things had been so publicized about what had happened to me, for whatever it was I was involved in. Because people were like, "Well, fuck that." And they sent the money. And ultimately rescued me. Really, when you get right down to it. That's what, that's what happened. Alissa 55:49 That's awesome. Yeah, even though, you know, I've been out. It's been primarily other people. And for that, I could not be more grateful because just, I think people really don't realize the emotional and mental strain that this kind of thing has on people. And it's, I know, it sounds really simple and like such a minut thing, but like I, physically, mentally, emotionally just would, not am not capable of doing that on my own right now. You know, I'm able to boost stuff and make posts. But yeah, I'm definitely really grateful for the help that I've had. Alex 56:35 Yeah, I hear that, you know, It's intentional that the system is designed to crush your spirit to keep you from advocating for yourself. It's part of why they they levy these immense fines. I mean, you know, $540,000, you know, they're just like, "This guy. This is the guy," you know. Yeah. Okay. I didn't realize I was quite that dangerous to the community. But apparently, Mike Schmidt feels that way. He's my hero. Brooke 57:16 Yeah, Mike Schmidt. He's your boy. So just like we do with health care in this country., if you need to get a decent lawyer to fight bogus charges, GoFundMe. Alex 57:26 [Joking] Well like here, like don't get sick, cucks. I guess you don't deserve to be genes. Brooke 57:43 Good times, fun times. Okay, we're gonna end up running over our usual length of episode, but I'm totally okay with that. Because I feel like this conversation we're having is really interesting and important. And we're just starting to dig into some of the bigger community support aspects of it, which is, of course, what Live Like the World is Dying is all about is how we prepare as a community and live together in the end times. So Alex, you ultimately took a plea on your charges? Why? What if you hadn't? Alex 58:18 Well, so the short version of why I took the plea was my attorney said to me, "Your cases were," because I had two cases open. That's the thing. It wasn't just the bus incident. There was this other thing with some dumb ass and he's fine, right? I mean, I barely touched him. That ended up being another Measure 11 case, and the State....that was a stretch, even even by the state's own standards of like, over prosecuting. It was a bullshit case. But, had we gone to trial, having two separate Measure 11 cases open would have made me a very vulnerable defendant, and would have closed the door for me to use a certain legal avenue to avoid the mandatory minimum sentence. And Wedge felt that the prudent thing to do, would be to take a deal and he felt he could give me a pretty good deal. Partially because he felt the state's cases were actually pretty weak. And he didn't believe that the prosecution knew what they were talking about. And that ended up being true as we all saw at my sentencing hearing with my daughtering, staggering, stuttering, fool of a prosecutor tripping all over herself, and then waddling out. Disgrace. That's Nicole Herman. Shout out to you, Nicole. Loser. Brooke 1:00:02 If you hadn't taken a plea, you were facing some pretty substantial time, right? Alex 1:00:08 Potentially, yes. The fear was that if I was facing anytime, I was facing a minimum of 70 months, hard time, no access to programs, no time off, regardless of any other circumstance, stuck in prison for all that time, and that would be the minimum. I would be like 46 years old by the time I got out, all for a pair of cases with no injured parties. Brooke 1:00:43 Yike, So Alissa, on your charges that are, the trials coming up here in April, is there any chance they might offer you a plea deal on that? Alissa 1:00:59 I was actually already offered a plea deal. Brooke 1:01:01 Okay. Alissa 1:01:02 That we turned down, because it was a really shitty plea deal. They wanted me to plead guilty to everything. And do three years in jail. [Sarcastically] You're so generous, thank you! Alex 1:01:25 Oh, my God, Brooke 1:01:26 Three years because someone gave you a concussion? Great. Yeah. That's a gift with purchase. Except you didn't even purchase the thing. So, it's just bad. Do you think there's any chance? Or does your lawyer think there's a chance they'll offer you another plea deal before this thing goes to trial? Or maybe there's just no way to know? Alissa 1:01:51 Yeah, I'm really not sure now. Alex 1:01:55 It's tough to say, you know. We were certain, before the first hearing, back when I had a bunch of codefendants in one of the riot cases, which that hearing took all fucking day, by the way, because that was COVID times. We all did it through video. It was a nightmare, but also very funny. We were certain that the State was going to offer us something, anything and they were like, "No." We spent six hours on a video call and nothing happened. And I was still looking at all these charges exactly as laid out before despite the incredibly weak evidence for most of them. It's wild, you know, like, even Wedge, at the time, my attorney, he was surprised. He was like, "Nothing happened, I guess." Brooke 1:02:47 Well, yeah, civil servants, they get paid for showing up for the day. So, they don't give a fuck how much of your time it wastes. Alex 1:02:54 Yeah, well, that prosecutor, he quit his job halfway through my case. He isn't a prosecutor anymore. And he you know, I gotta be honest. Brooke 1:03:04 I'm sure that was because of you. Alex 1:03:06 Well, I like to take the credit, but he just he really had the air of a dude who was quitting his job. He didn't care at all. It's just to say, though, you never know how the State's going to behave. Brooke 1:03:22 Yeah. So, Alissa, I hate to ask this question, but what kind of time are you facing? If they don't get a they don't give you a plea deal and and they find you guilty? Alissa 1:03:36 I mean, I don't know off the top of my head. Brooke 1:03:40 I don't know if you had Measure 11 stuff in in yours or any of that? Alissa 1:03:45 I do in my most recent arrest. I'm facing six extremely bullshit felony, but all felony charges, including one Measure 11 Charge. Yeah. But yeah, I'm trying to remember off the top of my head what the minimum is just for Felony Riot alone Brooke 1:04:08 It must be more than three years. Alex 1:04:10 Felony riot, I believe it is like three to five years. But, there's different degrees of riot. Felony riot is you know, it's bad one. I had two of them. Brooke 1:04:24 There's a lot that can happen of course in between now and then. I'm just okay. Let's just back away from the worst case scenario, because that's too depressing and awful to think of it, it's not going to happen because you're too awesome for that. So, you have the trial coming up in April. What kinds of things are you doing to get ready and how are people...You know, we already talked about the fundraising component but like, you know, I don't know, other things psychological or getting life in order in certain ways. Or you know, I don't know. You tell me. Alissa 1:05:01 Honestly, for the good amount of like, this past year, my mental health was like, complete shit. Like, I was probably in, like, the worst spot that I've been in and like a really long time. And, you know, that's for, you know, a few various reasons, you know, also a bunch of like, undealt with trauma that I hadn't confronted beforehand. But, it was really, really bad. You know, I took a pretty long break from social media. And I spent a lot of time unfortunately stressing out about, you know, impending doom. But you know, the past few months, I don't know if this is the best way to go about it or not, but I've kind of just been trying to not think about it and just kind of take things day by day and just, you know, enjoy the time that I do have. I don't I, you know, I'm not saying anything's gonna happen, but something very well might, you know, there's definitely a chance that I do go to jail. So yeah, honestly, lately, I've just been trying my best to not think about it, and just kind of enjoy the time that I do have, trying to get better at reaching out for help and asking for help when I want and need it, because that's something I've struggled with my whole life. But, you know, there's, you know, there's a community and a lot of people who have been offering their help. And, you know, it took me some time to, like, get it in my head that like, 'No, these are people that genuinely care and do want to help and be there for you. So you don't have to go through this alone'. Alex 1:06:52 Absolutely, yeah. Alissa 1:06:54 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's made a huge difference too, you know, having that mindset and taking people up on, you know, different offers and things and letting people in and letting people be there for me. Yeah, it's made a huge difference in a lot of ways, but predominantly, my mental health. Also, Lexapro. Brooke 1:07:20 Shout out SSRIs Alissa 1:07:22 I'm a huge fucking stoner too, which was like, my favorite way to decompress, but now like my pretrial conditions for this shit, I can't do any drugs or a drink alcohol, including weed, even though it's legal here, so I'm confused specifically for that one? Alex 1:07:40 Yeah. Oh, yeah. I lived that life for three years. I was forbidden from entering bars. Alissa 1:07:48 That's fucked. Alex 1:07:51 I couldn't leave the house at night. It was wild. I was like, "What was I doing? Did they bust me do a night crimes?" I don't remember that. Alissa 1:07:58 They could take the alcohol away from me. I'm not I'm not really a huge drinker. But, I need my weed. I need to taste Mary again. Alex 1:08:06 Well, I mean, how dangerous are the stoners really? Alissa 1:08:10 Apparently, very. Alex 1:08:14 You know, driving at a at a vicious 20 miles an hour...in a school zone. Brooke 1:08:23 Yeah, you know, if they just freely passed out that shit in jails, I think you'd have a much calmer chiller population that would, it would be much easier to manage Alex 1:08:34 It'd be better than the toilet wine that they were drinking where I was. I didn't try it, but I could smell it. Brooke 1:08:43 There's so much more I want to get into, that I wish we had all the time for. Yeah, the mental health component seems really important. We hear Live Like the World is Dying recently did a whole episode that was on mental health first aid. And one of the big things that got talked about on that episode was the importance of community for mental health. Which, you know, not to be all nerdy and sciency, but from a biological perspective, it makes a lot of sense, too, because we're mammals wired for community. So, I'm glad that you're able to engage with community and that people are giving you that kind of love and support and helping with your mental health in that way. Alex, if you don't mind, can I ask if....Well, I'll ask. You don't have to tell me. If you struggled with any kind of mental health, mental illness or anything around the stress of this? Alex 1:09:48 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, without a doubt. IYeah, it was very difficult. You know, the circumstances around my situation were...I mean, my pretrial conditions were pretty...They put an ankle bracelet on me. You know, it was bad. I was really suffering for a while there, you know, it was not easy. And I leaned really heavily on the people closest to me, and you know, it's taxing for everybody. And that's it. That's also by design. I mean, the State is doing it to you to, like I said before, to break your your heart, you know, that's what they want, because you'll acquiesce and you can be made an example of. And that's....it's really that simple. It's just a brutal system. And it's never clearer than when the Eye of Sauron is upon you, you know, because that's what it's like, it's like, they could do this to pretty much anybody. But, when they're doing it to you, you really get a taste of the unholy power that they wield over your life. Your whole life. Rvery aspect of it. You know, it is really wild, to just be told what's happening to you, and what might happen to you. Regardless of actual circumstance, you know, I mean, really just have to look at cases like Alissa's. If you've been following what's been going on with her. What happened to me. What I what I actually did, and how the State retaliated. It was very difficult. I did not handle it very well at times. I gotta say. And I was it was hard for me. It was hard on people close to me. For a while. Yeah, for sure. I definitely had some maladaptive problems for a little while. Alissa 1:11:54 Yeah, going off of what you said, too, about how it's done intentionally. That's something that I personally struggled with was like, on top of everything that was putting me down in regards to everything that's going on, there's like this other really weird aspect to it, where the State is actively inflicting psychological warfare, and it's like, I'm aware of these tactics. I know what they're doing. I know why they're doing it. And, I kept going through this cycle where I was like... I just felt so stupid, and I kept getting so down on myself. I'm actively aware of this. So why, why is it still affecting me? Why am I still letting it affect me? Yeah. But yeah, it's all intentional. It's all by design. Alex 1:12:55 Well, it's a science. They have it down. So, you're still going through this, and up until literally today, so was I. So I gotta tell you, I mean, just not to.... Alissa 1:13:10 No, what happened today? I want to know. Alex 1:13:13 Well, I want to get to that in a second, but first I want to say to you, when you're feeling down on yourself, when you're feeling like, "Why is this affecting me? Why is this working? I know what they're doing," it's because this is what they do. And it is a system designed around doing this and they've been doing it a long time. And you're just another victim, you know? Knowing you're being victimized doesn't remove you from victim hood, you know? And I know that's little comfort when you're really going through the thick of it. I know, I've been there. But, just remember to give yourself the space for that suffering, because if you don't, it will find other ways to come out of you when you're not ready for it, you know. You'll pay for it elsewise. Just try to make some space, you know? Alissa 1:14:12 No, no, that's that's good advice. Especially because I'm really really....sorry not to like toot my own horn or be too conceited or anything. But, I'm really good at repression. Like I'm really good. Brooke 1:14:32 Yeah, I think I hear Alex saying you can call him and talk to him, and hear all soothing his voice as he's nice to talk to. Alex, what's your good news? Alex 1:15:04 Oh right, the good news! My attorney contacted me yesterday, and told me that we have movement on the case and I have....essentially what it boils down to is my probation is being terminated two years early and I'm receiving misdemeanor treatment for the terms of the deal we made, so I will very soon here, basically as soon as we get paperwork, I will no longer be on probation and I will no longer be a felon. Alissa 1:15:35 Fuck yeah! Alex 1:15:36 Yeah, yeah. So Andy Ngo is gonna cry himself to sleep tonight on his huge me-shaped anatomically correct pillow. I'm buying guns, Andy, guns. Brooke 1:15:51 Yeah, baby. And I can bring mine to your house again. Because that's something I used to do with you. Alex 1:15:57 Yeah, totally, bring your pews-pews. [guns] Brooke 1:16:03 Oh, man. All right. So, I think I'm gonna move towards wrapping us up here. But, I do want to come back to you, Alissa, one more time. Yeah, we've talked about the the mental health support you need and the, you know, ongoing fundraisers to help pay for attorney fees. And I wondered if you would just be willing to talk one last time about any specific fundraisers you have open or if there are things coming up and certainly to tell people how they can get a hold of you, you know, find you on social medias and whatnot to you know, learn more about what's going on and to show their love and support for you, because everyone on Twitter is loving and supportive and will most certainly say nice things. Alissa 1:16:52 No, Twitter's so good, especially for mental health, for sure. Alex 1:16:56 Never been better than it is now. Alissa 1:17:02 So on Twitter, people can find me under my full name just Alissa Azar, and I'm more active on Instagram. And my handle on there is r3volutiondaddy, but the 'E' in revolution is a '3'. So, it's "r3," and then just spell out revolution Daddy. I'm also on Mastodon, but you know, if you go on to any one of those, I have the link tree in my bio, and all of my socials are posted there. I also have an active fundraiser now that's also in my bio. So you can find my fundraiser on my Twitter or my Instagram. I'm also going to be planning another fundraiser soon where some stuff will be up for sale and whatnot, but I don't have a date for any of that yet, so I'll post that on my socials once I have all that information. Alex 1:18:04 Hey, I want to sell the beta cuck armor for you. I'm gonna sell the armor. Alissa 1:18:09 There are many many interested buyers. Alex 1:18:13 It still smells like... Alissa 1:18:16 Please don't finish that sentence. Alex 1:18:19 it did it, though. No. For real, though. For real though. If you're listening and you want to look like a felon for a good cause. Brooke 1:18:34 Thanks, Alex. Appreciate you throwing some some swag in the mix there. So how can folks find you on social meds? Or do you want them to, Alex? Alex 1:18:44 No, I'm a ghost. You need a seance to reach me, these days. No, I got kicked off of Twitter when Elon Musk took over. So I'm not on Twitter anymore. I was in the first wave. It's a point of pride. I got a tattoo. So, I'm on mastodon. You can find me at betacuck4life life as usual. You know, Mastodon users, they're a lot more woke. So, people regularly tell me that my handle is problematic. And I'm like "It's a thing." You know, they don't understand what I've been through. Brooke 1:19:22 It is a very confusing handle to be to be fair. Alex 1:19:26 Well, you know, I do love explaining things. Everybody wins. Brooke 1:19:32 And y'all can find me personally on Twitter or Mastodon if you want to. OgemakweBrooke. No, I'm not going to spell my indigenous name for you, sorry. And you can find the Stranger's Collective. We are the group that publishes this wonderful podcast. We are on Instagram and Twitter @ Tangledwild. We also have a pretty dope website. Have you seen our website, Alex? Alex 1:20:04 Oh yeah, I check y'all out. Shit. We did business. Brooke 1:20:08 Aw