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IT DOESN'T GIVE UP!! It Follows Full Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects With Writer / Director David Robert Mitchell rolling camera on "They Follow," Roxy Striar & Aaron Alexander REUNITE to give their It Follows Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review!! Download PrizePicks today at https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/RE... & use code REJECTS to get $50 instantly when you play $5! Join Roxy Striar and Aaron Alexander as they dive into David Robert Mitchell's 2014 horror thriller It Follows, where a deadly supernatural curse transmitted through intimacy leaves Jay Height (Maika Monroe, celebrated for The Guest and Labor Day) running for her life from a relentless, shape-shifting ENTITY. Keir Gilchrist grounds the terror as Jay's loyal friend Paul Bolduan (lead in Netflix's Atypical and star of It's Kind of a Funny Story), while Olivia Luccardi shines as the pragmatic Yara Davis (You're Next, Channel Zero). Lili Sepe delivers a heartfelt turn as Kelly Height (debuted in the Tribeca-premiered Spork), Jake Weary ups the stakes as Jay's ex-boyfriend Hugh Redmond (Animal Kingdom, Oculus), and Daniel Zovatto intensifies the dread as neighbor Greg Hannigan (10 Cloverfield Lane, Don't Breathe). Roxy & Aaron break down every spine-chilling sequence—from the eerie hallway pursuits and sudden roadside sightings of The Entity, to the chilling final showdown at the school swimming pool. Can Jay and her friends thwart the mysterious, shape-shifting entity, or will they succumb to its cycle of meta-viral terror??? Follow Aaron On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therealaaronalexander/?hl=en Follow Roxy Striar YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@TheWhirlGirls Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/roxystriar/?hl=en Twitter: https://twitter.com/roxystriar Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week we have another awesome cross pollination with Live Like the World is Dying, our comrades in the Channel Zero podcast network. This time we're talking tree crops. Many of the trees we talk about in this episode have had their own episode on Propaganda By the Seed, so if you want more info look back in this feed or check out these links. Be sure to follow Live Like the World is Dying on your favorite podcast app or whatever social media you use for more informative content for what feels like the end times. Cornelian Cherry (PBTS episode), Figs (PBTS episode), Paw Paws (PBTS episode), Hazelnuts (PBTS episode), Eating Acorns (PBTS episode), The way I collect and process Acorns (blog page), Mulberries (PBTS episode), Siberian Peashrub (PBTS episode), Pigeon Peas on Seeds and Their People, Northern Nuts and the genus Carya (PBTS episode), Chestnuts (PBTS episode), Mt. Joy Orchard - A free to pick public orchard in Portland, Maine - IG // website, Rethinking Black Walnut Allelopathy on In Defence of Plants, Trees with Edible Leaves - free book , Trees with Edible Leaves PBTS episode, Grafting (PBTS episode) If you want to support this podcast, you can tell a friend to check it out, subscribe/rate/review on your favorite podcast platforms and/or join the Patreon. You can also submit questions or listener audio!
REACHER VS PAULIE + QUINN SHOWDOWN!!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Visit https://huel.com/rejects to get 15% off your order Start your online business with a $1 per-month trial when you visit https://www.shopify.com/rejects! Reacher Season 3 Finale Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review!! Join Greg Alba and John Humphrey as they dive into the explosive climax of Amazon Prime Video's Reacher Season 3. In this riveting finale, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, celebrated for his roles in Blue Mountain State and Titans) faces his most daunting challenge yet, as the threads of conspiracy and betrayal come together in a high-stakes showdown that redefines his relentless pursuit of justice. In this must-watch episode, Reacher teams up with stalwarts like DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, known for her standout work in Lodge 49 and Humans) and the unwavering Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, from Swamp Thing and Channel Zero). The tension soars as the mysterious Quinn (Brian Tee, recognized for his roles in The Wolverine and Jurassic World) and other key players push Reacher to his limits. Our hosts break down every electrifying moment—from adrenaline-pumping action sequences and heart-stopping confrontations to subtle clues that tie together the season's intricate narrative. Experience the finale's unforgettable twists and explosive set-pieces that have left fans clamoring for more. Whether you're a longtime follower or a newcomer to the series, this in-depth reaction and review offers the ultimate breakdown of a finale that cements Reacher Season 3 as one of the most thrilling chapters yet. Intense Suspense by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Follow Us On Socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@reelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/reelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Music Used In Ad: Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Happy Alley by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM: FB: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Drew Stone is an American film director, producer, film editor, author and musician. His works include music videos, commercials, documentary films and television.Check out NYHC channel - https://www.youtube.com/@stonefilmsnychttps://www.stonefilmsnyc.com/FRUMESS is POWERED by www.riotstickers.com/frumessJOIN THE PATREON FOR LESS THAN A $2 CUP OF COFFEE!!https://www.patreon.com/Frumess
ONE EPISODE TO GO!!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Save & Invest In Your Future Today, visit: https://www.acorns.com/rejects Download the PrizePicks today at https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/RE... & use code REJECTS to get $50 instantly when you play $5! Grab a NEW Daredevil-inspired Hallway Hazard Tee at https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Reacher Episode 7 "L.A. Story" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review!! Join Greg Alba and John Humphrey as they dive into the explosive and action-packed Episode 7 of Amazon Prime Video's Reacher. In this high-stakes installment, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans, Fast X) & DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, known for her standout work in Lodge 49 and Humans) head to sunny Los Angeles to retrieve some information from shady Art Dealer Darien Prado (Greg Bryk, Saw V, A History of Violence). Meanwhile, Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, from Swamp Thing and Channel Zero) tracks down her would-be assassins, following their lead straight to the location of the Buy. All the while Quinn (Brian Tee, renowned for his roles in The Wolverine and Jurassic World) has been sent into a panic, liquidating his business & preparing to disappear. Zachary Beck (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone) & his son Richard (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds) share a touching moment as Zachary discovers the antique gun Richie bought for his Birthday... Greg 'n John break down every riveting moment—from the adrenaline-charged action sequences and heart-stopping confrontations to subtle clues that hint at Reacher's shadowy past. Episode 7 delivers jaw-dropping twists and an unforgettable climax that will have fans on the edge of their seats! Intense Suspense by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Follow Us On Socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@reelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/reelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Music Used In Ad: Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Happy Alley by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM: FB: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
FACE TO FACE WITH QUINN!!! Reacher Full Series Watch Alongs: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects = THANKS TO HUEL! Visit https://huel.com/rejects to get 15% off your order Come See The Reel Rejects at WONDERCON! https://www.comic-con.org/wc/badges/ Reacher Season 3 Episode 6 "Smoke on the Water" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review!! Join Greg Alba and John Humphrey as they dive into the latest explosive chapter of Amazon Prime Video's Reacher Season 3, titled "Smoke on the Water." In this searing installment, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans, The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare,) finds himself face-to-face with the sinister & unpredictable Quinn (Brian Tee, The Wolverine, Jurassic World). In "Smoke on the Water," Reacher manages to gain the favor of Quinn (aka Julius McCabe) who, organization-compromised, begins a mad rush to alter every facet of his operation. This puts Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, Lodge 49, Humans) & Villanueva (Roberto Montesinos, Gridiron Gang, We Bought a Zoo) directly in harm's way as Richard Beck (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds) discovers their operation and is pulled into a harrowing roulette sequence opposite his father, Zachary Beck (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone). We also get one of the most BADASS sequences in the show as Quinn's Goons attempt to ambush Neagley (Maria Sten, Swamp Thing, Channel Zero) to bone-crunching & very satisfying ends... Gregory 'n Johnald break down every riveting moment—from a heart-stopping showdown set against swirling smoke and flames to subtle exchanges that peel back the layers of hidden motives. "Smoke on the Water" delivers a masterful blend of action, suspense, and emotional depth, setting the stage for an unforgettable climax to the season! Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell icon for more in-depth reactions and reviews! Intense Suspense by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Follow Us On Socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@reelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/reelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Music Used In Ad: Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Happy Alley by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/... POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM: FB: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
THAT FREAKIN' ENDING!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Follow Us On Socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thereelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/thereelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Save & Invest In Your Future Today, visit: https://www.acorns.com/rejects Reacher Season 3 Episode 3 "Number 2 With a Bullet" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review! Greg Alba and John Humphrey return for the breathtaking conclusion to the three-part premiere of Reacher Season 3! In this explosive finale, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans) plunges headfirst into the dangerous heart of Zachary Beck's (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone) treacherous empire—where every secret comes at a deadly price. With the stakes higher than ever, DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, Lodge 49, Humans) and the indefatigable Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, Swamp Thing, Channel Zero) race against time, unearthing pivotal intelligence that could shatter Beck's hold on power. As Reacher's relentless pursuit draws him into a ferocious clash, he finds himself face-to-face with the menacing enforcer Paulie (Olivier Richters, Black Widow, The King's Man), setting the stage for a showdown that promises to leave no one unscathed. And just when you think the tension can't climb any higher, the mysterious Quinn (Brian Tee, The Wolverine, Jurassic World) steps out of the shadows—forcing Reacher to confront echoes of a past he never thought he'd face, while Richard Beck (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds) wrestles with the crushing legacy of his family. This action-packed installment is a rollercoaster of explosive confrontations, gut-wrenching twists, and high-stakes drama that redefines Reacher's quest for justice. If this intensity is any indication, we're in for an unforgettable season! Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Music Used In Manscaped Ad: Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM: FB: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
THAT OPENING SCENE!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Follow Us On Socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thereelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/thereelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Save & Invest In Your Future Today, visit: https://www.acorns.com/rejects Reacher Season 3 Episode 1 "Persuader" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review! Greg Alba and John Humphrey dive into the highly anticipated premiere of Reacher Season 3! In this electrifying opening episode, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans) goes undercover to rescue an informant from a formidable enemy tied to his past. The episode kicks off with a high-octane action sequence, setting the tone for a season filled with intense confrontations and deep-seated vendettas. Reacher's mission leads him into the dangerous world of Zachary Beck (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone), a businessman with a dark secret. Alongside Reacher is his trusted ally, Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, Swamp Thing, Channel Zero), and DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, Lodge 49, Humans), who bring their expertise to the perilous operation. The antagonist's muscle, Paulie (Olivier Richters, Black Widow, The King's Man), presents a daunting physical challenge, standing at an imposing 7'2". As Reacher delves deeper, he crosses paths with Quinn (Brian Tee, The Wolverine, Jurassic World), a former military officer with a shared history, and Richard Beck (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds), whose traumatic past intertwines with the unfolding events. This episode not only delivers adrenaline-pumping action but also sets the stage for exploring Reacher's complex past and the unfinished business that haunts him. For fans eager to delve into more of Jack Reacher's thrilling adventures, notable storylines include Killing Floor, Die Trying, Tripwire, Running Blind, and Echo Burning. Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Music Used In Manscaped Ad: Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM: FB: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
REACHER CRUSHES ANGEL DOLL!! Reacher Full Series Reaction Watch Along: https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Follow Us On Socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ Tik-Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thereelrejects?lang=en Twitter: https://x.com/thereelrejects Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ Save & Invest In Your Future Today, visit: https://www.acorns.com/rejects Reacher Season 3 Episode 2 "Truckin'" Reaction, Recap, Commentary, Analysis, & Spoiler Review! Greg Alba and John Humphrey return for part 2 of the highly anticipated 3 episode premiere of Reacher Season 3! After the explosive events of the premiere, Jack Reacher (Alan Ritchson, Blue Mountain State, Titans) continues his dangerous mission deep inside the world of Zachary Beck (Anthony Michael Hall, The Breakfast Club, The Dead Zone), a businessman with far more secrets than he lets on. Behind the scenes, DEA Agent Susan Duffy (Sonya Cassidy, Lodge 49, Humans) & Reacher's steadfast ride-or-die Frances Neagley (Maria Sten, Swamp Thing, Channel Zero) hunt for vital intelligence that could turn the tide of their operation. Reacher's presence in Beck's circle not only draws the attention of the towering enforcer, Paulie (Olivier Richters, Black Widow, The King's Man), but also brings us one step closer to the elusive Quinn (Brian Tee, The Wolverine, Jurassic World), a ghost from Reacher's past... All the while, Richard Beck (Johnny Berchtold, The Wilds) struggles with the weight of his father's choices & finds an unexpected friend in Reacher. The episode once again features hard-hitting action, psychological warfare, and Reacher's unique pursuit of justice. With each revelation, the stakes grow higher, setting the stage for explosive confrontations in the episodes to come. If they keep this up, it could well become our favorite season so far!! And for any fans of the show eager to dive deeper into Jack Reacher's thrilling adventures, notable storylines include Killing Floor, Die Trying, Tripwire, Running Blind, and Echo Burning. Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Apparel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Music Used In Manscaped Ad: Hat the Jazz by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: Greg Alba Co-Editor: John Humphrey Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM: FB: https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Au travers de ce podcast, Marie-Amélie Mastin parcourt avec vous les news rock articulées autour de 9 grandes thématiques : les grands retours, l'actu chez nous en Belgique, les élections américaines et les artistes qui s'y sont impliqués, les nombreuses sorties d'albums, les projets de films autour de grandes rockstars, le business de l'industrie musicale, les groupes qui se séparent, se disputent, ou arrêtent les tournées, les célébrités qui nous ont quittés cette année, et finalement, les news people et autres récompenses. --- Mots-Clés : The Cure, Oasis, AC/DC, Brian Johnson, Chester Bennington, Linkin Park, Metallica, Marvin Gaye, Vaya Con Dios, Arno, Channel Zero, Kamala Harris, Donald Trump, Lenny Kravitz, Coldplay, David Gilmour, Indochine, les Pixies, Deep Purple, Pearl Jam, les Smashing Pumpkins, Bob Dylan, Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Marley, Elton John, Amy Winehouse, Queen, Michael Jackson, Pink Floyd, Paul McCartney, Aerosmith, Status Quo, Rod Stewart, Jane's Addiction, Dave Grohl, Foo Fighters, Ozzy Osbourne, Gojira. Merci pour votre écoute Plus de contenus de Classic 21 sur www.rtbf.be/classic21 Ecoutez-nous en live ici: https://www.rtbf.be/radio/liveradio/classic21 ou sur l'app Radioplayer BelgiqueRetrouvez l'ensemble des contenus de la RTBF sur notre plateforme Auvio.be Et si vous avez apprécié ce podcast, n'hésitez pas à nous donner des étoiles ou des commentaires, cela nous aide à le faire connaître plus largement. Découvrez nos autres podcasts : Le journal du Rock : https://audmns.com/VCRYfsPComic Street (BD) https://audmns.com/oIcpwibLa chronique économique : https://audmns.com/NXWNCrAHey Teacher : https://audmns.com/CIeSInQHistoires sombres du rock : https://audmns.com/ebcGgvkCollection 21 : https://audmns.com/AUdgDqHMystères et Rock'n Roll : https://audmns.com/pCrZihuLa mauvaise oreille de Freddy Tougaux : https://audmns.com/PlXQOEJRock&Sciences : https://audmns.com/lQLdKWRCook as You Are: https://audmns.com/MrmqALPNobody Knows : https://audmns.com/pnuJUlDPlein Ecran : https://audmns.com/gEmXiKzRadio Caroline : https://audmns.com/WccemSkAinsi que nos séries :Rock Icons : https://audmns.com/pcmKXZHRock'n Roll Heroes: https://audmns.com/bXtHJucFever (Erotique) : https://audmns.com/MEWEOLpEt découvrez nos animateurs dans cette série Close to You : https://audmns.com/QfFankx
In an excluding episode, The guys discuss the role latinos played in the election, P turns on Channel Zero, and the guys list songs that excludes most of our audience.
In an excluding episode, The guys discuss the role latinos played in the election, P turns on Channel Zero, and the guys list songs that excludes most of our audience.
Há muitos filmes de horror nos quais o mal é visível, identificável, explícito. Há alguns outros, no entanto, em que a ameaça vai muito lentamente tornando-se cada vez mais concreta e poderosa. É essa segunda descrição que melhor representa os filmes selecionados para este Embate. De um lado, O Hóspede traz um soldado desconhecido que chega na casa de uma família em luto afirmando trazer uma última mensagem de seu filho que faleceu em combate. De outro, O Convite retrata uma festa de jantar aparentemente inofensiva entre velhos amigos que vai aos poucos revelando-se cada vez mais macabra. Então, dê play neste RdMCast e prepare-se para tomar uma difícil decisão: o que você acharia menos pior: tomar o soro do experimento de super soldado que deu errado ou uma taça de vinho oferecida por membros de um culto sinistro? O RdMCast é produzido e apresentado por: Thiago Natário, Gabriel Braga e Gabi Larocca. Apoie o RdM e receba recompensas exclusivas: https://apoia.se/rdm CITADOS NO PROGRAMA: O Hóspede (2014) O Convite (2015) Citações off topic: Você é o Próximo (2011) Bruxa de Blair (2016) Godzilla e Kong: O Novo Império (2024) Observador (2022) O Presente (2015) Kingsman: Serviço Secreto (2014) Channel Zero (2016) Festim Diabólico (1948) EPISÓDIOS CITADOS: Cabana RdM #23 – Não Fale o Mal: o filme que vai te traumatizar Cabana RdM #26 – Watcher: o horror de ser observado RdMCast #344 – Heaven's Gate: alienígenas, discos voadores e cultos RdMCast #298 – Corrente do Mal (It Follows) RdMCast #464 – Especial Godzilla parte 2 ou: como os EUA estragam tudo RdMCast #275 – Franquia Alien RdMCast #429 – O Assassino e o horror em David Fincher RdMCast #386 – M3GAN, o novo fenômeno do horror RdMCast #249 – Especial Dia dos Namorados RdMCast #276 – Garota Infernal RdMCast #336 – Yellowjackets: vale tudo pela sobrevivência RdMCast #470 – Longlegs: Satanismo, bonecas e Nicolas Cage Siga o RdM Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Rep%C3%BAblicadoMedo Instagram: @republicadomedo Twitter: @Rdmcast Entre em contato através do: contato@republicadomedo.com.br PODCAST EDITADO POR Felipe Lourenço ESTÚDIO GRIM – Design para conteúdo digital Portfólio: https://estudiogrim.com.br/ Instagram: @estudiogrim Contato: contato@estudiogrim.com.br
Chris and Andy talk about some TV news, including the announcement of the ‘Beef' Season 2 cast (1:00) and the release of the trailer for the new Michael Schur show, ‘A Man on the Inside' (10:05). Then they discuss the first two episodes of ‘Special Ops: Lioness' Season 2 and whether the show is just "military porn" or something more interesting (14:11). Finally, in honor of Halloween week, they talk about some of their favorite terror TV shows, including ‘Teacup' and ‘Channel Zero,' and why horror TV is so hard to make (38:21). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Bruce Dickinson, le leader d'Iron Maiden, a pris le temps de faire son l'éloge à de Paul Di'Anno, ancien chanteur d'iron Maiden, décédé à l'âge de 66 ans. lors d'un concert donné à Mineapolis. Channel Zero, véritable institution dans la scène metal en Belgique a annoncé sur ses réseaux sociaux un dernier concert à l'AB qui clôturera plus de 35 ans d'activité. Le Victoria and Albert Museum de Londres a annoncé qu'il ouvrirait l'année prochaine une nouvelle attraction pour les visiteurs, le V and A East Storehouse, qui abritera un centre David Bowie. Gibson a annoncé une nouvelle guitare signature pour Jimmy Page, une collaboration rend hommage à la guitare que Page a utilisée sur le premier album éponyme de Led Zeppelin en 1969 – la Gibson SJ-200. Un nouveau documentaire pour Bruce Springsteen, ‘'Road Diary'' présenté en avant-première à Los Angeles avant sa diffusion sur une plateforme de streaming ce vendredi 25 octobre. Un livre compilant les gribouillages de Lemmy de Motorhead voit le jour, sorti en édition limitée on y découvre un aperçu non filtré de l'esprit d'un homme dont ‘'la vision du monde était pleine d'humour et intemporellement prémonitoire''. Mots-Clés : mardi, foule, The Time Machine, œuvre, pionnier, Killers, voix, incroyable, vie, hommage, reprises, guichets fermés, aventure, adieu, ultime, fans, metal, tickets, vente, site, archives, objet, artiste, processus créatifs, innovateur, musical, icône culturelle, défenseur, expression, personnel, acquisition, intermédiaire, succession, Blavatnik Family Foundation, Warner Music Group, emblématique, reproduction, fidèle, historique, capturer, traits distinctifs, finition, sunburst Cherry Tea, exemplaires, lde, Collector's Edition, exemplaires standards, contribution significative, communiqué de presse, rideau, tournée, mise en place, coulisses, répétition, théâtre, New Jersey, scènes, monde, histoire, amitié, membres du groupe, panne, idée, développement, merchandising, originalité, journaux, collection, idées uniques, publication, exemplaires, numérotés à la main, exclusivement en ligne, souhait, véritable essence, figures, influent. --- Classic 21 vous informe des dernières actualités du rock, en Belgique et partout ailleurs. Le Journal du Rock, en direct chaque jour à 7h30 et 18h30 sur votre radio rock'n'pop. Merci pour votre écoute Plus de contenus de Classic 21 sur www.rtbf.be/classic21 Ecoutez-nous en live ici: https://www.rtbf.be/radio/liveradio/classic21 ou sur l'app Radioplayer BelgiqueRetrouvez l'ensemble des contenus de la RTBF sur notre plateforme Auvio.be Et si vous avez apprécié ce podcast, n'hésitez pas à nous donner des étoiles ou des commentaires, cela nous aide à le faire connaître plus largement. Découvrez nos autres podcasts : Le journal du Rock : https://audmns.com/VCRYfsPComic Street (BD) https://audmns.com/oIcpwibLa chronique économique : https://audmns.com/NXWNCrAHey Teacher : https://audmns.com/CIeSInQHistoires sombres du rock : https://audmns.com/ebcGgvkCollection 21 : https://audmns.com/AUdgDqHMystères et Rock'n Roll : https://audmns.com/pCrZihuLa mauvaise oreille de Freddy Tougaux : https://audmns.com/PlXQOEJRock&Sciences : https://audmns.com/lQLdKWRCook as You Are: https://audmns.com/MrmqALPNobody Knows : https://audmns.com/pnuJUlDPlein Ecran : https://audmns.com/gEmXiKzRadio Caroline : https://audmns.com/WccemSkAinsi que nos séries :Rock Icons : https://audmns.com/pcmKXZHRock'n Roll Heroes: https://audmns.com/bXtHJucFever (Erotique) : https://audmns.com/MEWEOLpEt découvrez nos animateurs dans cette série Close to You : https://audmns.com/QfFankx
Yeah, boy!! Get some bass for your face this week with It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back, the sophomore album from hip-hop pioneers Public Enemy! James & Connor will learn about Chuck D and Flavor Flav's moving van freestyles, Hank Shocklee's Bomb Squad and their iconic wall of noise, and more as we tackle exactly one hour of music. We'll find out what's on Channel Zero (shewatchshewatch), refuse to believe the hype, and learn about everything from dactylic hexameter to Caspar Milquetoast. The Mixtaper informs us about the personal life of Terminator X and Flavor Flav's contributions to sports, politics, and hotel lobbies... You're gonna have to listen to this one, because this time around the podcast will not be televised.Keep Spinning at www.SpinItPod.com!Thanks for listening!0:00 Intro2:32 About Public Enemy13:14 About It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back22:32 Awards & Accolades23:16 Fact Or Spin24:53 Flavor Flav Was Named Ambassador To Flavortown29:21 The Band Gets Free Room Service In Hotels33:01 Flavor Flav Performed At The Olympics40:33 Terminator X Raises Johnny Cash Assassins46:37 Album Art47:18 Countdown To Armageddon49:59 Bring The Noise55:11 Don't Believe The Hype57:55 Cold Lampin' With Flavor1:00:44 Terminator X To The Edge Of Panic1:02:45 Mind Terrorist1:03:32 Louder Than A Bomb1:06:44 Caught, Can We Get A Witness?1:10:11 Show 'Em Whatcha Got1:12:55 She Watch Channel Zero?!1:16:07 Night Of The Living Baseheads1:17:27 Black Steel In The Hour Of Chaos1:21:15 Security Of The First World1:21:36 Rebel Without A Pause1:24:20 Prophets Of Rage1:25:19 Party For Your Right To Fight1:26:36 Final Spin Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Episode 35: Horror Mixtape Mash Up - Suzie & Billy D This episode was recorded on June 24, 2024 and posted on September 7, 2024. Content Warning: Light vulgarity. Introduction Welcome to No Bodies Episode 35 Introductions to your Ghosts Hosts with the Most - Suzie aka Projectile Varmint and surprise host Billy D. of Halloween Babies Today's Topic: Horror Mixtape Mash Up - Suzie's Version! The Mixtape Exchange - Suzie's Version (Where the Rules Don't Matter!) Methods for selecting our films & defining existential horror Suzie's original suggestions for Billy - that of course, he had already seen! Resolution (2012), Primer (2004), You'll Never Find Me (2023), The Coffee Table (2022), Possessor (2020), Upstream Color (2013), Time Crimes (2007), Triangle (2009), Predestination (2014), Exam (2009), Moon (2009), Cube (1997), District 9 (2009) Suzie's favorite existential horror tv shows The Dark (2017), Channel Zero (2016), Silo (2023), Dark Matter (2024), Castle Rock (2018), The OA (2016), Altered Carbon (2018), The Killing (2011), The Sinner (2017), Twin Peaks (1990) Billy's tragic backstory Mixtape Reviews Billy D's Picks for Suzie Aniara (2018) Kotoko (2011) Santa Sangre (1989) Suzie's Picks for Billy D The Jacket (2005) Without Name (2016) I'm Thinking of Ending Things (2020) Suzie & Billy D's Watch Party The Vanishing (1988 Thank you to our guest! Check out Billy D's solocast Halloween Babies. Keep Up with Your Hosts Check out our instagram antics and drop a follow @nobodieshorrorpodcast. Projectile Varmint - keep up with Suzie's film musings on Instagram @projectile__varmint Lonely - read more from Lonely and keep up with her filmstagram chaos @lonelyhorrorclub on Instagram and www.lonelyhorrorclub.com. Surprise Mash Up Music by Billy D. and Bobby Donny! Leave us a message at (617) 431-4322 and we just might answer you on the show!
Diana and JR are recording in a studio for the first time! They start with their signature icebreaker, "Fave Pot/Fave Not Pot," where Diana highlights the Purple Punch strain and Vegamour's vegan dry shampoo, while JR discusses Dr. Solomon's balm and the TV show "Channel Zero."The conversation shifts to the importance of making the cannabis industry more accessible to neurodivergent individuals. The hosts discuss practical measures like remote interviews and advanced scheduling to help neurodivergent employees thrive in a rapidly changing retail environment.Special guest Jahmila Edwards of Stash Queens joins to offer insights into the current challenges and changes in New York's cannabis market. Topics include the proliferation of illegal shops, the slow governmental response to new regulations, and the disparities in medical cannabis access in less affluent neighborhoods.(00:16) Fave Pot/Not Pot(08:53) Neurodiversity in the Cannabis Industry(22:18) Cannabis Industry Challenges and Changes(32:00) New York Cannabis Industry Priorities(40:46) Supporting Diversity in the Cannabis IndustryThis episode is sponsored by Spendr. Join over 50 dispensaries already using Spendr. Getting started is easy and takes just a few days, not months. No more fees, no more ATM lines–just rewards for buying their favorite products. This episode is produced and edited by Your Highness Media. Subscribe to our Substack for the latest updates and event information.
The Concert Crew takes on some of biggest current news topics. Hear the fellas discuss The Big 3 rap beefs, OJ, Diddy, Hall of Fame episode controversy, Kanye saying he invented every style of music of the past 20 years and much more. Also, the Concert Crew reviews new music from Big Boogie & DJ Drama, Reuben Vincent, Mozzy, Bryson Miller and Future & Metro Boomin... #ConcertCrew #Podcast #ChannelZero #TrendingTopics #HotTopics #TopStories #Drake #JCole #KendrickLamar #RickRoss #OJ #Diddy #MisterCee #MeekMill #KanyeWest #Pod #PodcastLife #Podcasting
We are joined by author David Renton to discuss the far right in Israel, we cover the Israeli government's links to the international far right, the influence of the Kahanist movement, how Israel's government has conducted the assault on Gaza and more. Support us on patreon: patreon.com/12rulesforwhat We are part of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts, check out other shows at channelzeronetwork.com
Editor - Greg O'Bryant MR. AND MRS. SMITH editor, Greg O'Bryant was not just joining the biggest project of his career with this new Amazon series, but he would also be the "new guy" on a well-oiled machine of storytellers from the tv series, ATLANTA. Taking the chance really paid off for Greg. Not only did he get to try his hand at action, but he got to have his name in the credits twice (Greg also co-produced)! Turning the premise of the 2005 feature film inside out, here John and Jane are two strangers-turned-partners who carry out their spy-like duties under the cover of being married software engineers. Taking their orders from an unseen task master they call "HiHi", the two learn the ropes of being "Smiths" while learning to love, and somewhat trust, one another. GREG O'BRYANT Prior to working on MR. AND MRS. SMITH, Greg first began his partnership with writer/director Scott Z. Burns on the latter's political drama, THE REPORT (2019). Greg would also edit an episode of the series, THE LOUDEST VOICE (2019) that Burns helmed. Most recently, the two collaborated on the Apple TV+ series, EXTRAPOLATIONS (2023). In addition to his work with Scott Z. Burns, Greg is also a frequent collaborator with show runner, Nick Antosca. Their partnership first began on CHANNEL ZERO, a SyFy Channel anthology series based on the popular Internet "Creepypastas" Candle Cove, The No-End House and Butcher's Block. Subsequent projects with Antosca would include Hulu's original series, THE ACT, as well as the Netflix series, BRAND NEW CHERRY FLAVOR. Greg also edited the tv series, THE GIRLFRIEND EXPERIENCE, adapted from the film by Steven Soderbergh. Editing Mr. and Mrs. Smith In our discussion with MR. AND MRS. SMITH editor, Greg O'Bryant, we talk about: Using score as your "tonal buoy" Turning the tables on the 2005 film of the same name Making a relationship sandwich How film is a director's medium where tv is a writer's medium Where a grumpy p.a. can influence the work The Credits Visit ExtremeMusic for all your production audio needs View the "augmented reality" version of The Rough Cut at Frame.IO Check out the free trial of Media Composer | Ultimate Hear Greg discuss his work on the Netflix series, BRAND NEW CHERRY FLAVOR Listen to Greg detail his experience cutting the Apple TV+ series, EXTRAPOLATIONS Subscribe to The Rough Cut podcast and never miss an episode Visit The Rough Cut on YouTube
It's 2024!! Happy New Year. Episode 8's guest is Nick Antosca, highly inventive film and television writer, producer and novelist. Nick Antosca, film and television writer, producer, and novelist, is the creator of Syfy's anthology horror television series Channel Zero and the true crime series A Friend of the Family. He also co-created and show-ran the Hulu true crime limited series The Act and the Netflix horror show Brand New Cherry Flavor. PATREON: NEW!!! More content exclusively for our Early Bird Patreon Subscribers! Check in now https://www.patreon.com/ScreamDreamsPod Follow Scream Dreams: linktr.ee/screamdreams Welcome to SCREAM DREAMS - The Nightmares That Shaped Us! This is the show that delves into our most vivid dreams and nightmares, and how they affect our lives and work. Show hosts are Catherine Corcoran (Terrifier, Return to Nuke 'Em High), James A Janisse (Kill Count, Dead Meat Podcast) and Barbara Crampton (Re-Animator, Suitable Flesh). Episode 8 live premieres on Wednesday 1/2/24 at 7:15 AM PST / 10.15 AM EST. We hope to see you then on our LIVE CHAT - and please don't forget to Like, Subscribe and Comment. It's New Year, and Nick Antosca has some change-your-life tips we should probably all follow! Watch and find out. Nick comes in hot and enthused by his wild, intense nightmares. He talks about how we should all be grateful for the free entertainment of our bad dreams! Or maybe even monetize them, like he does! How journaling his dreams gives him a much better understanding of his own subconscious. Connections of dreams with meditation and ketamine therapy, plus child demons and mothers. Nick's most horrific nightmare about being brutally executed, and how his family was behind it. We discover Nick's healthy mental morning routines for creative work, and dealing with phone and email distractions. Plus why a state of hyper-vigilance is really bad for you, and the horror of the infinite scroll. Catherine is horrified by the iconic disgusting Tooth Child from Channel Zero. James talks about star gazing. Oh, and Nick's cat is a French philosopher (naturellement!). In this week's Side Barb, Barbara wants to know if Nick's dreams are actually Lovecraftian, and she plays a new Mad-Lib specially written for a writer! We really welcome your Feedback - please let us know what you think of the show so far in the comments, suggest any fun nightmare games we might play, as well as future guests you'd like to see on the show! Follow Scream Dreams: linktr.ee/screamdreams --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/scream-dreams/support
Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is joined by Wōen and Roxanne from the Woven Ends Collective to talk about death, dying, death work, and everything from how to determine who gets to make decisions about your end of life, to how to have your remains dealt with in the manor that you would like, to how to bring community collaboration into death. Next week, they continue the conversation, focusing mostly on the work of death doulas. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript **Live Like the World is Dying: Woven Ends on Death & Dying Part I ** **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host for today Inmn Neruin and I use they/them pronouns. Today we're talking about something that we sort of reference all the time on the show, and that is death, a thing that we should all live like is going to happen someday. Because it is. I wanted to have Wōen and Roxy on to talk about this because I found myself thinking about it more and more as things change evermore rapidly in our world. And, I think it's cool to talk about because it's just another form of community preparedness that we can all engage in to make our end of lives easier for ourselves and for the people that we care about, and in general, just demystify the topic as we figure out how to leave this world, whether that pertains to navigating funerary industries, medical industries, legal logistics, medical interventions, the choice to die at home, how to have home burials, how to care for the dying, and how to have these conversations as a community. A content warning, obviously, we're going to be talking about some heavy stuff, and we approach it with some amount of levity, but we do talk at some point about the idea of choosing to die from the perspective of terminal illness. But before we get into it, we are a proud member of Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo. [saying these sounds like a song melody] Wōen **Inmn ** 02:43 And we're back. Thanks, y'all so much for coming on the show with us today, especially to talk about a subject that I feel like is like a little bit more grim than we usually talk about. Or, I guess we kind of always always talk about it, but we never actually talk about it. So yeah, would you like to introduce yourselves with your names, pronouns, and kind of like what you do in the world? **Wōen ** 03:17 My name is Wōen. I use he/him pronouns. I work in grave care, so burial, and generally any rot-honoring practice that I can help with. **Roxanne ** 03:41 And my name is Roxanne. I am a nurse and have been doing end of life, and death doula sort of work outside of that, for maybe 15 years or so. Yeah. **Inmn ** 04:01 Cool. And y'all are part of a collective that kind of specializes in this kind of work. Would y'all want to introduce that now or we could talk about it later? **Wōen ** 04:17 Yeah, no, we can introduce it now. Our collective is called Woven Ends. We're more recently becoming more outward facing. We're a collection of death care practitioners and community members who are interested in helping the community. We are focused on combating the domination and alienation in our world through making our death rites and the care for the dying more autonomous and a lot more intimate. **Roxanne ** 05:08 And accessible. **Inmn ** 05:12 Cool. Um yeah, it's weird how much the State is like intertwined in death. And that's like not...I feel like that's not something I ever realized until I realized it and then I was like, "Oh, like can you die without the State being involved?" **Wōen ** 05:35 Like the bureaucratic storm is also guided by the industry and a lot of the rituals that we have now and the way that death operates is it's a contrived effort, the funeral industry, to deal with all aspects after death. So, it's a really troubling, difficult thing that families and loved ones navigate. **Roxanne ** 05:35 No. **Roxanne ** 06:14 Yeah, it's pretty devastating. It's like Capital will take hold and commodify any and every aspect of our life possible and not even our life but our afterlife as well. Like yeah, it's hard to believe in true freedom sometimes, but that's why we're here fighting for it. **Inmn ** 06:38 Yeah, I feel like...Whatever, I'm gonna take like a pretty like light hearted and like whimsical tone today because we're talking about something grim, but I feel like we have these ideas that like, "You know, the State's got me in life, but at least when I die I'll be free," and it's like maybe? I mean, your body won't be. **Roxanne ** 07:14 Sadly, no. Eventually Yes but initially, no. **Inmn ** 07:22 Yeah, I feel like that is a literal nightmare of mine. Could y'all kind of break down like what is death work? Like what is a death doula? What is the Woven Ends collective kind of like do in like a material or emotional way? **Roxanne ** 07:50 Well, I can speak towards death doula work. What a death doula is, is a little undefined. And there are powers that be that are trying to make it more defined and kind of like more commodified. But basically, a death doula is someone who helps a family or a loved one sort of like go through the process. So that could look like, before someone dies, helping come up with some like legacy project, some things that people want to leave behind, or how someone wants to be remembered. So, that could be like, you know, if a 40 year old who has three kids dies, kind of legacy work you could do with someone in that situation is like, you know, help them record videos for their kids' future birthdays, you know, stuff like that so that way when their kids get older, like hit those milestones, they can have this video from their parent that has been gone for a while. So yeah, just kind of like, you know, one aspect is focusing on legacy work. Another aspect is just kind of like emotionally helping people with the grieving process, whether that be the person who's actually passing away or the family sort of like talking through the process of all of that with them. And then, you know, other aspects could be more helping set up funerary services, trying to help work on community aspects of disposition. Yeah, death doula is...It's sort of that the individual does different things. And I think if someone's interested in having a death doula, I would really ask questions about what specific services they provide. **Wōen ** 09:59 Yeah, And I can speak more to like our collective. We definitely, we try to connect the right people to help different community members. So, that could be a death doula or even a grave digger. So, a lot of what we do is like guidance around the whole process. And we definitely want to like expand our scope completely to be able to care for the whole process. But most of what we've been doing in the past, and currently, is helping folks with finding burial options that are accessible and hopefully free. And we've been able to create a network of free home burial grounds where we live. And it's been really awesome to be able to provide this for free. And it usually is in tandem with a lot more care going on with death doulas and generally the radial support that happens when you're trying to create a more autonomous situation. **Roxanne ** 11:28 I would also say that a part of the sort of intentional death work thing is to really help communities and individuals kind of like shift narratives towards death. We live in a really deathphobic society. And it is a thing that I think...you know, like, even in our introduction, we're like, "Okay, so this is a really grim topic," but it's interesting, because it's one of, you know, aside from being alive, it's the only other thing that everyone is going to experience, like the one thing that even if you have nothing in common with somebody else, the fact that you're going to die is a thing that you have in common. And so I feel like there's a lot of room for connection there. And, a part of the sort of work is to try to like, you know, find connection, find community, and sort of shift the narrative around this very natural and inevitable thing that's going to happen, and open up room and space for there to be beauty and transition in that instead of just fear. Because I think oftentimes, people don't actually...They're not scared to die. They're scared of being in pain. And those are very different things. So I think, yeah, just like...death workers offer a space for us to really intentionally look at that and say, like, "Okay, you're feeling scared? What is it that you're scared of?" You know? And really helping shift that narrative and also hopefully providing a space where nobody has to die alone. You know, sometimes that's just going to happen, but if at all possible, making sure that we can provide space--unless someone wants to--but they don't have to die alone. **Inmn ** 13:32 Yeah, we do live in a really deathphobic society. And I...you know, obviously it's a sad and hard and difficult thing, but I feel like I have always wished that there...that we as a culture did have different attitudes or different ways that we deal with it, or grieve, or like mourn, or whatever. I don't know, I've just had a couple kind of funny funerary experiences, where I was like, "Are we celebrating this person's life? Or are we mad at them because they didn't tell anyone how sick they were?" And that just like...Yeah, just like a lot of funny experiences like that. Whereas, I wish that we were, I wish we had, that we had a different attitude towards this right now because I'm not sure if this attitude is like helping anyone. **Roxanne ** 14:43 Yeah, definitely. And I think you bring up a good point too, where because of deathphobia but also because of our obsession with what we consider health, sometimes people are so scared to admit that they're sick because there's so little support and resource around that. And people don't want to be, you know, a burden to each other. And instead of being angry at our friends because they wouldn't tell us how sick they are, it's a great time to, you know, take a moment and be like, "Okay, why do we live in a world in which someone that I loved very much could not tell me how sick they were? And like, how do I fight that world instead of my friend?" **Inmn ** 15:37 Yeah, yeah, totally. You mentioned earlier--I just want to like hit on this before we get too far away from it--but there being some effort to make being a death doula more of a defined thing? And I'm--I know, this is subjective--but is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Is that a complicated thing? **Roxanne ** 16:01 I mean, in my personal opinion, I'm not for that. I feel like the way...like I understand and respect people wanting to figure out how to do this work and still...Like, it makes sense to me that people want to do this work in a permanent way in this world that we live in, this society of capitalism, like people need to get paid for their time in order to survive. Like that makes sense to me. But, I think that there can be a kind of predatory nature to it. And these...It's like the commodification of the death, dying, death doula world is really similar to what happened in the birth community. And I think that's kind of interesting that the link between the two, because people have been doulaing each other since people were...were born about how to do these things. And, if we lived in communities where we were interacting with birth and death in more tangible ways then we wouldn't need sort of outsiders to tell us how to do these things. But yeah, I think that the certification process doesn't make sense. I think it's just another platform of institutionalization and commodification that isn't necessary, you know? It's like, okay, a lot of these certification organizations are offering education, which is amazing, yes. Like, education is so important. But the real education--and I feel like I learned this in nursing school, too--like, you can learn all the ins-and-outs of things, but where you're actually going to learn is through experience. So like, you want to learn how to be a death, doula? Go volunteer for hospice. Like, go watch people die and you will learn so much just from having that experience or like, you know--and not just hospice. You know, there's a lot of ways that people can sit with people at the end of their life. But, you know, like you don't need to pay someone to teach you how to be an active listener. **Wōen ** 18:37 Yeah, and I think...Like in the realm that I work in--which is what they call green or natural burial--like it's all the same pattern of pushing towards professionalization and specialization, and it's being co-opted by the Capitalist system. Even though a lot of these cemeteries that are providing this like really beautiful practice, they didn't intend on that and they structured themselves as a nonprofit. So they just continued to fall into the trappings of what happens when you professionalize something. And now there's overarching regulatory institutions and it's just...It makes it really hard to get into the process and start a cemetery and...Yeah, and they're walking hand-in-hand with the rest of the funeral industry, so, like annually increasing prices for these rituals that were supposed to be a lot more accessible and ecological, but they're not. They're not accessible. **Roxanne ** 20:07 Totally. And I feel like this...Yeah, this focus on specialization really, you know, negates and alienates the fact that we have inherent wisdom as to how to handle these situations. And then when we can't accept or like don't have--courage isn't the word that I'm looking for--confidence in our own, you know, kind of inherent wisdom, then we feel like we need a specialist to tell us what to do, but it's all right there inside of us in information that we can pass down with each other through, you know, actually having a relationship with death, and dying, and disposition, and all the things. So I feel like, yeah, the more we can be connected and like with death, honestly, the better we can be with life also. **Wōen ** 21:11 Yeah, and when we say, "disposition," we mean burial, cremation, you know, being eaten by birds, everything. It's a general term. **Inmn ** 21:27 Yeah, yeah. I feel like...it's fun to use this as the thing to compare it to, but, you know, I think it's important for us to like have, you know, guides through hard times or like people to...people who are very familiar with or versed in leading these experiences or facilitating these experiences, and it's...like, what you were just describing of kind of like what the Death industry is, it reminds me of a like boutique coffee shop or something. Yeah, like turning death and ritual into a boutique coffee experience that is just another strange industry that maybe people feel better about, but, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how much actual connection or like community building that is doing? **Roxanne ** 22:36 Totally. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's a similar thing. Yeah. And again, they did that with the birthing community too. It's, yeah, it's sad. **Wōen ** 22:50 Yeah, and, you know, like with organic foods. **Inmn ** 22:57 Yeah. To kind of switch gears a little bit, why is it important to think about this stuff now? Like, why is it important to think about dying? Why should we be having these conversations as a community? **Wōen ** 23:16 Yeah, I mean, I think it's always been important when you want a culture that renews itself, and especially now when we're facing intense upheaval, developing a deeper intimacy with death, it helps us claim a place, and claim ancestors, and develop a deeper resilience to the chaos in our world. Like when thinking about movements and how under the regime of alienation, and the lack of intergenerational connection, and especially like connection to our ancestors, like, things can really be thwarted without those connections to place or to the people that came before. Yeah, and so being able to be with the unexplainable and unknowable aspect of like... **Roxanne ** 24:47 I think now, as Wōen was just saying, it's so important because we are living in pretty devastating times. It's pretty obvious, I think, to most people with what's going on with the climate, you know, with ecological destruction getting worse very viscerally year by year and not just in one place but all across the world where people are really...You know, you live in Arizona...Wait, maybe I shouldn't say that... **Inmn ** 25:33 I've said it multiple times. **Roxanne ** 25:38 Yeah, well, for example, you live in a place that in the summer if someone accidentally tripped and fell, they would burn themselves on the ground and potentially have to go to the burn ICU. Like, that wasn't true five years ago and it's just only going to become more true for more places across the world. And I think, yeah, just really taking inventory of the trajectory that the world is on right now means that we're...When you're living on a dying planet, you're gonna have to deal with the fact that we are a part of that planet and not separate from that. And I think also, you know, the question of "Why now?" is, like, both a societal question and then also kind of an individual question because I think...You know, I am 39 years old. I think most people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, even 50s aren't really thinking, and hopefully, you know...People even younger than that obviously, need to be thinking about this stuff, too. But I think that, you know, often the more like normative stance--which is also partially a bliss--is just to be like, "Oh, you know, if I have a fine bill of health then why should I be concerned about these things?" And we all know people die unexpectedly. We all know our relationship to health, and all the different forms that that can look like, can change at any moment. We all know that life isn't just inevitable. And so I think really thinking about these things and really starting to prepare for these things is one of the best things we can do to help not just, you know, those around us when we die, but also to help inform how we live our lives. No matter what age you are, I think it's important to be thinking about and talking about. I've been having conversations, for example, with my mom about the fact that she was gonna die since I was like five years old. And then at some point, I was like, "Oh, wait, if you're dying, that means I'm dying too. Shit, I'm gonna have to think about this." **Inmn ** 28:23 Yeah, what does? You know, this is the fun moment where we get to say the name of the podcast in a question, but how does one live like they're dying? Like, what does that mean? **Wōen ** 28:40 I mean, I think it's understanding that ecologically and spiritually the dead make the world. Our ancestors are not just like our [uninterpretable. "In our dirt?"]. They're what came before use. They're everything we eat, and breathe, and even conceive of, and dream of. So, it's fully opening our minds to understanding the deep cycle of life. **Roxanne ** 29:17 Yeah. And, you know, some intentionality, recognizing that the things that we do and how we treat ourselves and each other do matter, you know? Like they do matter because we are people experiencing each other. Or, they don't matter in the way that we are tiny pieces of sand floating around on this huge rock in this ginormous atmosphere. You know? It's like it's both. Both things are happening at the same time. We are a multitude it turns out? Both how we are and who we are matters and also doesn't at all. But I think just like really honoring the fact that it's a limited resource, that life is actually a limited resource, and that the time that we spend together is also limited, and trying to really love people while you can, to be brave enough to really love the people in your life while you can. **Inmn ** 30:32 Yeah, I feel like we have such a...our culture has such a focus on the concept of "later" and the future that like...And you know, this is maybe obvious because a lot of the society that we live in is founded on this idea of...or like founded by people who are informed by a religion that embraces an afterlife that...and something I've really appreciated about--I'm not necessarily an atheist--but like something I've always appreciated about atheism is that it is weirdly pro life and pro living in this way where it's like, "Yeah, there's nothing after this so you gotta do what you want to do now, not later. **Wōen ** 31:32 Yeah that's kind of...I mean, I think the Christian worldview is inherently disassociating from your body? Yeah. Not a good place to start. **Inmn ** 31:53 Yeah, just to switch gears a little bit, I want to talk a little bit more about the logistics of death. So, something that I think about a lot is like, if, you know, if I get sick tomorrow, if I get in an accident tomorrow and like my condition suddenly changes like rapidly, and I have feelings about how I want...like what interventions I want taken or how I want...Let's start with interventions. And then we'll move on to other bits, but how do I prepare for that? How do I prepare for getting the...having the interventions that I want taken or not taken? Or, how do I get to choose who gets to make those decisions when I'm no longer able to? **Wōen ** 32:59 So, the simplest answer to that would be to complete an Advanced Directive that's legally binding. And so this designates the person who will be your advocate legally, to make choices at the end of life and after death. Yeah, and this ends up...Yeah, this supersedes the legal next of kin, which without designating the power of attorney, will be your biological family. So this is really important if you don't want them to be in charge of what you want to happen to you at the end of life or after your death. **Inmn ** 34:00 Do you have something to add to that Roxy? **Roxanne ** 34:02 I do. I think that I just wanted to add that making choices around your health care power of attorney, like who that person should or could be, I think sometimes there can be a lot of pressure from people that are close to you that just because you're close with someone that they should be the one to help make those medical decisions for you. But, I would like to argue that maybe that's not always the best person. What you want in these situations is someone who will follow the directive that you lay out, because just because you have this document stating how you would like for things to go, at the end of the day, the healthcare power of attorney actually gets to make the final call. So maybe you say, you know, "CPR is okay. But I don't want to be intubated." At the end of the day, if your healthcare power of attorney decides, "I want them to be intubated," despite what your paperwork says, they can intubate you. So you really want to pick someone who can...who you think will follow what you've asked for and also someone who, even if they don't have the information themselves, will educate themselves or ask the right questions to make decisions that they think you will want. And it's also I think good to think about, you know, if, for example, you think your partner is going to be so worried and like so in a process of grief, that maybe they're not the one to choose because maybe it's better for them to just to get to be in the grief process and not having to make these big decisions. I've seen so many times in the hospital where the family feels like if they choose to, quote unquote, "Pull the plug," that they're the ones that killed their loved one, not whatever, you know, situation their person was in or just that the bodies can only handle so much. And I think that, yeah, giving someone healthcare power of attorney is--I'm not going to say it's a burden--but there is definitely the potential for weight behind that and it is a serious question. It's not...it's not a popularity contest. It's not about who you like the most. It's about who you really think can help make the decisions when they need to be made or who's going to be brave enough to call it when it needs to be called. **Inmn ** 37:24 Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. **Wōen ** 37:27 Yeah, I think that just kind of reveals the need for, you know, models of anarchist mutual aid where we all support each other. And it's like, being able to have these conversations and support each other outside of these really normative pathways of the nuclear family. And yeah, breaking that prescription on... **Roxanne ** 38:04 I guess I just wanted to add that, for sure, if you want to make sure, as as close as is possible...If you wanted to make sure as much as what's in your capability that your wishes are going to be met with interventions, having an Advanced Directive is the only real way to do that legally. So, if you don't feel like, as Wōen was saying earlier, if you don't feel like you fully trust your family to do the things that you would want to do, you have to have that written down. You have to have it notarized. You really have to go through that process. It's really important. **Inmn ** 38:45 Yeah, and then it seems what is kind of equally as important is having those conversations with your community and with whoever you're designating as your power of attorney, so that like...Yeah, it's like, I'm imagining in this situation that you've built where like, your partner might not be the best person, so you make this Advanced Directive and you designate someone, who's maybe not your partner, as the power of attorney, and then it seems like you have to then have conversations with that person, or with your community as a whole, about what you want. And then...Like, I'm imagining this situation where you do that and then it's like--so it's not entirely falling on one person--maybe one person has to legally make those decisions, but like other people can support them or like it can be a little like network of support that like kind of helps hold people to like what your best wishes were? Does that kind of make sense? **Wōen ** 39:53 Absolutely. And it's like…an Advanced Directive is not all encompassing. Like, being able to guide the types of rituals you want and...Yeah, like, every little detail that you want, you should be able to have, but you have to have those conversations and they have to be on going with as many of your loved ones as possible. So, the Advanced Directive is kind of a way to safeguard against the powers that be from taking control of your life and your death. But, it [hard to tell, but probably "lasts"] like a lot of other guidance that relies on being able to talk about it. **Inmn ** 40:42 So, this is something that I was kind of thinking about with this is like if...So, say maybe that in this hypothetical that I don't have like the best relationship with my parents, or say I have a fine relationship with my parents who are still alive, but I don't think they would make the best decisions, so I designate someone from, you know, my chosen family network to be my power of attorney. But then, you know, I get sick. I get into an accident. And suddenly, my family, my biological family and my chosen family, are in the same room. Is there? I imagine those situations can get pretty contentious, especially for my biological family to find out that they do not have the power of attorney. Like, I guess, obviously, you should maybe have those conversations with your family, but like I...You know, I would rather...I would rather not have that conversation with my family where I'm like, "Hi, I have taken away your medical power of attorney over me." But I also don't want to like necessarily entirely pass that off to my friends to deal with. Like...I don't know, have you like seen situations like that that were contentious, went well, or like, do you have any tips for navigating that? **Wōen ** 42:24 Well, I mean, in different forms I've seen it. I think it's important to say, once you have your power of attorney designated the family no longer have...like, they don't have control. The power of attorney does. And so like in a situation like you're describing, I think, the idea of communal care comes in, where you can have...Like, maybe the person who is your health care advocate isn't necessarily the one who is negotiating with the family or mediating. Just having more people involved to take care of the situation, I think is the best advice I can give. **Roxanne ** 43:20 Yeah, I would say, you know, I always push towards tending towards collaboration when possible. So if someone's family is just absolutely unwilling to work with, you know, the chosen family or the person who has power of attorney then honestly that situation actually just hurts them more. So, I think as much as people can collaborate, the better. And recognizing and appreciating the fact that everyone in a situation is going through some kind of fear and grief, and we don't always behave our best in those situations. So, trying to be generous with each other and give each other time and space to--you know, I'm not saying you have to deal with someone using abusive language towards you or anything like that--but just, you know, recognizing that this can be a real space of grief and that collaboration might not seem possible at first and then it is. I've had situations where collaboration seemed really possible. And then the friend's family member flipped out and tried to get us all kicked out of the hospital. This is before I was a nurse and was just a really kind of traumatic situation for everyone but ended up--like this is actually the situation that really got me on the tip of like, "Oh, we have to have Advanced Directives. This is like imperative." But yeah, I think, as Wōen already said, as much as people can work with each other and collaborate, even if you've been told stories throughout your whole friendship with someone about, you know, what a monster their parent is, or whatever, just like focus on the task at hand, which is helping your friend get safe, and accessible, and good care for as long as they can. And if you need the family to be a part of that, great. And if a family has to go--because sometimes the family's gotta go--you get to make that call. And it's like, if they gotta go, they gotta go. But hopefully that won't be the case. I think it's just...like from a harm reductionist standpoint. **Inmn ** 46:02 Yeah, yeah. Does a family have any legal recourse against a power of attorney? Like, I can imagine a family believing that they have some kind of legal recourse, but like could they sue people? Could they challenge it? **Wōen ** 46:22 I mean, I'm gonna say, no. I know that that happens like a lot of legal challenges happen. But in the moment, I think, what should guide is that health care and funeral services will honor the healthcare power of attorney. So yeah, I think that that is a risk in a really contentious situation, but it is not likely that the healthcare system or the funeral professionals will dishonor the Advanced Directive. **Roxanne ** 47:12 And it might be a situation, like in a hospital sort of setting, it might be a thing where they kind of set up a mediation with an ethics board sort of thing. But at the end of the day, the legal document is the legal document. Yeah. **Inmn ** 47:30 Yeah. And, I'm imagining that the answer to this is along a similar lines, but like, in the reverse situation, if I don't have a power of attorney designated or an Advanced Directive, but I have, you know, my friends that I've had these conversations with about this or I have a journal entry or something about this, I'm guessing that doesn't have...like, at the end of the day, it's the the family or the next of kin, whoever has been legally designated has all of that power to make those decisions? **Wōen ** 48:07 Yeah, and again, that's where a united community who can help, you know, maybe approach the family to be able to negotiate or collaborate. Yeah, that would be the right place to start. But also, if that's not possible, knowing that you can still hold space for your grief as a community even if you're separated from the actual process of dying and death, and that you can enact the depths of meaning that you need and connection with each other. Yeah. **Roxanne ** 48:07 Yeah. **Inmn ** 49:02 Um, to kind of switch gears a little bit, this is a weird question. God. How much does it cost to die? Like obviously, you know, if you do die then that expense is not going to be your responsibility, but I'm imagining this situation like from--I don't know if y'all have seen that movie Little Miss Sunshine. [Roxanne makes an affirmative noise] But like, the grandpa dies, and they're like, "It'll cost this much money to get the body," and they're like, "We don't have that." So, they steal the body. Yeah, how much does it cost to die and have your remains something or anothered? I don't know what...I don't know what a good word is. **Wōen ** 49:55 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can definitely speak to after death. I think the national average has risen, but like a few years ago it was around $8,000 to do a really normal funeral service like burial. More and more people are choosing cremation because it is cheaper, even though it is getting more expensive. And the average cremation cost is anywhere from $1000 to $3000 based on what type of package you buy from the funeral home. There's a lot of ways that funeral homes can be predatory. Not all funeral homes are predatory, but the vast majority are. And every year it gets more expensive. So yeah, it just depends on your form of disposition. So like, if you're doing cremation it's gonna be a lot cheaper. But often people choose that because it's cheaper, not because of thoughts of that's exactly what they wanted, you know? They're thinking about the financial situation of the family, and yeah, it shouldn't be that way. They should have the type of ritual and disposition that they want. Yeah, it's a pretty horrifying situation. Yeah. **Inmn ** 51:28 And, like, what happens to...You know, normally when you go to the hospital there's a bill, but if you die, like who has to pay for the care that you received? **Roxanne ** 51:44 Yeah, your family will get that debt as far as I understand. They're a next of kin kind of situation. **Inmn ** 52:00 So, when I think about my own wishes around my remains, you know, one of those fantasies or ideas is that I would love to, you know, not be embalmed. I would love to have my body rot in the ground. Is that possible? **Wōen ** 52:16 Absolutely. To start, the only federal law around death is that you don't have to be embalmed. It's a strange, actually good law as kind of a response to an exploding funeral industry I think around--I don't exactly remember--decades ago. And so a lot of advocates pushed for that to happen. Yeah, so you definitely don't have to be embalmed even if you go to a funeral home. And if they say like, "This is the only way," they're lying. But luckily that's happening less and less because natural burial, or what they call green burial, is getting a lot more popular. And it's, I think in all states now in this country you can find a place at least within like 100 miles. But, I would advocate that if you have access to land in any way, you should do a home burial, even if that means you have to go through some bureaucracy and like create an official cemetery. You should do that because you've now created a burial ground that others can be buried at in the type of way that you want, to honor rot, to honor the ecosystem. Yeah, so definitely what you want is very possible. **Inmn ** 54:15 Cool. Um, yeah, can--I'm sure it's complicated state by state--but like, can you if you own land, or you know someone that owns land, they can just designate part of it as a cemetery and then people can get buried there? Is that like? What is that process like? **Wōen ** 54:39 It really is county by county. Yeah, county by county. Yeah, it's really...I would say where we, where I am in the southeast, as a general statement, in any rural area it is widely practiced still and it's very easy to do home burial. And as another general statement, you just...you can't do this within city limits. And I think that, for good reason, because, you know, they are hubs of capitalism with land turning over and...Like, from where we're sitting even, you know, half a mile down the road, they're desecrating a Black cemetery that they just unearthed that had been paved over at least twice. So it's...I think, like, yeah. So, being able to be outside of the city limits is the best option and most accessible. I know some states are more difficult. And there's more...like there's more red tape. I would say to research where you live. Yeah. And really think about doing this for your community. **Roxanne ** 55:59 What a gift. We live in a time where land and space is becoming--I mean, has been, is becoming--such an intense battlefield for resources. It's just like a really, really intense thing to have is land and space. So being able to provide that for people for free, even just to put their body in is such an incredible resource. **Wōen ** 56:34 Yeah, I know there's...I know there's a lot of kind of...I've heard of some wild ways to have your remains dealt with that...Maybe just to add a little bit of fun levity to the situation. But uh, I've heard you can get turned into diamonds now? **Roxanne ** 56:58 Yeah. **Inmn ** 57:00 Cool. **Wōen ** 57:00 You can get turned into a bowling ball. **Inmn ** 57:03 You can get turned into a bowling ball? I feel like this is a plot to a movie from the 90s. **Wōen ** 57:10 Yeah, I mean, it's...Yeah, you can do a lot with cremated remains. Pretty cool. **Roxanne ** 57:18 Mushroom soup. **Wōen ** 57:19 Uh-huh **Roxanne ** 57:20 I'm really into the soup, personally. **Inmn ** 57:22 The mushroom soup? **Roxanne ** 57:24 Yeah. **Inmn ** 57:25 What is the mushroom soup? **Wōen ** 57:27 What the mushrooms do. I would say it is a little...there needs to be more research on this mushroom soup. But, fungus is a late stage decomposer and this mushroom soup is something you're supposed to be buried in. That's what they're proposing. But often initial decomposition is way too hot and will eat up fungus. And so, it's a little bit not completely thought out. Yeah, so I wouldn't advocate for the mushroom soup, but I would advocate for, you know, creating an aerobic environment to be buried in so you rot really well. And you don't have to worry, the fungus will be there. They will be there to eat up your bones and all your desiccated tissue. Yeah. **Roxanne ** 58:30 I'm picturing like ground lasagna, you know, where there's like dirt, and worms, and things, and then like a layer of mycelial...input. **Wōen ** 58:47 Yeah, that makes the world go round. **Inmn ** 58:51 Yeah. And you can, like on a similar vein, I've heard in Oregon you can get composted? **Wōen ** 59:03 Yeah, I think now it's legal in eight states. It started in Seattle. They call it human composting or natural organic reduction is another term they use. But basically, they're accelerating the decomposition of your soft tissues. I think it's a really awesome thing, especially for folks who don't have access to land because you become soil really fast. And I think a lot of them partner with forest areas where they'll spread your soil. Yeah, I think it's awesome. And I really hope that they make it accessible, you know, like the rest of the Green Death movement. It remains to be seen. But, I hope that that happens. **Inmn ** 1:00:14 Thanks so much for listening. This turned into a much longer episode than we thought it would, which is great that there's just so much to talk about around this topic. So, that's the end of part one. If you enjoyed the show, please go talk to your community about death and tell us about it. And, think about filing an Advanced Medical Directive and power of attorney. We will be back next week with the second half of this episode where me and Roxy will talk a lot more about what it means to be a death doula. I know these topics can be hard and scary, but I think talking about them helps us to not worry about them as much and offers a lot of hope to our communal resilience. If you enjoyed the show, please go tell people about it. You can support this podcast by telling people about it. You can support it by talking about it on social media, rating, and reviewing, or doing whatever the nameless algorithm calls for, as much as I don't want that to be something that's true. You can also support us in a financial way by following us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Our Patreon helps pay for things like transcriptions or our lovely audio editor, Bursts, as well as going to support our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We put out a few more podcasts including my other podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, a monthly podcast of anarchist literature, and the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is the podcast for people who love movies and hate cops. And we would like to shout out some of our patrons in particular. Thank you Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalis. Janice & O'dell, Paige, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Shawn, SJ, Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and as always, Hoss the Dog. Thanks so much. We seriously couldn't do it without you. I hope that everyone is doing as well as they can with everything that's happening and we will see you next week for the second part of this episode. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co
Bienvenidos al final de ByR.#Creepypasta Escrita por: https://www.reddit.com/user/searchandrescuewoods/Fuente de la historia (traducción hecha por mí): https://bit.ly/3cAx7nqLamentablemente las historias terminan aquí. ¿Por qué? Bueno hay muchas razones para ello, una serie de eventos que el autor vivió en persona y que terminaron desanimándolo por completo, a tal punto de que incluso se arrepiente de haber escrito sus primeros posts. Además, "perdió" los derechos de sus historias al venderlas a syfy, canal que inspiró la tercera temporada de Channel Zero en estas.✨Todas mis redes sociales en un solo link: https://bit.ly/RedesPrideMúsica utilizada:Somnium Music:•Canto of Somniumhttp://bit.ly/2LYWTGd•Decay - Distorted Room (Song: https://youtu.be/3bvDXkKY26c Channel: https://goo.gl/TPvUPF)Myuu:•Blackout•Collapse•Gymnopedie No. 1http://bit.ly/2MjbFYJ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Nolan is joined by Ben McBride, Kat McBride, and Emily von Seele to discuss Mel Brooks' YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN (1974) and John De Bello's RETURN OF THE KILLER TOMATES (1988). The crew catch up on new discoveries, rewatches, and recent releases before embracing their mad scientist roots and bringing a new generation of monstrous (but silly) creations to the world. Other movies/TV shows discussed on this episode: EVIL DEAD RISE (2023), THE INVITATION (2022), RENFIELD (2023), THE POPE'S EXORCIST (2023), BROOKLYN 45 (2023), INFLUENCER (2023), BLESS THE CHILD (2000), A HOUSE ON THE BAYOU (2021), RED ROSE (2022), CHANNEL ZERO (2016), WENDELL & WILD (2022), ATTACHMENT (2023), POST MORTEM (2021), CONFESSIONAL (2020). Links of interest and/or sources cited for research on this episode: Season 12: Episode 9- Bless The Child + The Predator (featuring Nolan McBride) (VH US) (podcast) The Unlikely History of Attack of the Killer Tomatoes (Secret Galaxy) (YouTube)
If you are an artist stuck in your journey, book a "coaching for artists" session directly with Samson @ https://calendly.com/connectionismagic Coodie & Chike (IG: @Coodierock & @Cozah) are Emmy-Nominated and acclaimed producers, directors, and documentarians. They are the directors & visionaries behind Netflix's documentary “Jeen-Yuhs,” the 3-part trilogy showcasing the never before seen, two-decade plus, behind the scenes life of Kanye West, starting from when no one believed in him all the way through launching a multi-billion-dollar shoe and clothing empire. The duo launched their directorial debut with Kanye West's break through single, “Through the Wire” in 2003. Coodie started out as a comedian and was also the co-founder of the legendary 90's hip-hop platform “Channel Zero” which featured some of the biggest icons of the genre early in their careers: Wu-Tang Clan, Bone Thugs N' Harmony, Nas, and many others… Chike, has been a consummate student of the arts from an early age, attending the prestigious, Rhode Island School of Design as well as the Savannah College of Art & Design. Some of their other work includes: 30 for 30 “Benji” Documentary (on the life of an All-American high school basketball phenom who's life was tragically cut short when he was killed in the south-side of Chicago), many iconic music videos including, Erykah Badu's “Window Seat” and they are currently working on an upcoming documentary on the life of Ernie Barns Jr. a prolific, African-American artist, well known for his style of elongated characters and movement. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS // + How their acclaimed, ESPN 30 for 30 “Benji” Documentary came together + How it sadly takes tragedy to unite us + Being pressured by Hollywood executives into deals they weren't ready to sign + Be patient, it takes time to get good at your craft! + Coodie dropping everything to move to NY to document Kanye prior to his success + Kanye having a habit of exploding whenever he hears someone use the word “Can't” + Creatives with deep chemistry coming together to work & how rare and special this can be + Artists becoming the “character” and abandoning their former selves after success + Drake hitting up Coodie days before the release of the documentary saying he wanted to narrate the whole thing and Kanye saying he wanted Drake instead of Coodie to narrate it + Kanye West's life and career spiraling downwards shortly after the release of the documentary they spent years putting together + The subliminal message of the documentary not really being so much about the Genius of Kanye West but rather to remind us that we all have a unique genius within and to give us the encouragement needed to push through the NO's and resistance to cultivate and express it!
Editor - Greg O'Bryant EXTRAPOLATIONS editor, Greg O'Bryant has once again teamed up with writer/director Scott Z. Burns, this time to take on the challenge of creating an entertaining, educational and hopefully motivational series about the future effects of climate change. Delivered as an anthology series, one of the more daunting tasks for the team would be managing the often dramatic shifts in tone, as well as the delicate balance between drama and, on occasion, comedy. Taking place in the not-too-distant future, but over the span of thirty-three years, EXTRAPOLATIONS shows how the effects of climate change have become embedded into people's everyday lives; through eight interwoven stories that explore the intimate, life-changing choices that must be made when the planet is changing faster than the population. GREG O'BRYANT Greg first began his partnership with Scott Z. Burns on the latter's political drama, THE REPORT (2019). Greg would also edit an episode of the series, THE LOUDEST VOICE (2019) that Burns helmed. In addition to his work with Scott Z. Burns, Greg is also a frequent collaborator with show runner, Nick Antosca. Their partnership first began on CHANNEL ZERO, a SyFy Channel anthology series based on the popular Internet "Creepypastas" Candle Cove, The No-End House and Butcher's Block. Subsequent projects with Antosca would include Hulu's original series, THE ACT, as well as the Netflix series, BRAND NEW CHERRY FLAVOR. Greg also edited the tv series, THE GIRLFRIEND EXPERIENCE, adapted from the film by Steven Soderbergh...who directed CONTAGION...written by Scott Z. Burns. Editing Extrapolations In our discussion with EXTRAPOLATIONS editor, Greg O'Bryant, we talk about: Not crossing the streams of comedy and drama The only geography that matters Why you need sixty mice Entertaining and educating for the sake of motivating Learning to love VFX, while still bemoaning blue screen The Credits Visit ExtremeMusic for all your production audio needs Check out the free trial of Media Composer | Ultimate Hear Greg discuss his work on the Netflix series, BRAND NEW CHERRY FLAVOR Subscribe to The Rough Cut podcast and never miss an episode Visit The Rough Cut on YouTube
Episode Summary Carrot and Margaret talk about all things hiking, including thru-hiking and ultralight hiking. They talk about how to choose the right gear for the right purposes and how to minimize the impacts of long distance hiking on your body. They go through the complications of bringing dogs on long hikes and how to stay safer around grizzly bears. They also spend a good deal of time critiquing The Last of Us while developing a theory on how to hybridize many hiking strategies to develop the ultimate form of apocalypse travel. Guest Info Carrot Quinn (she/they) is an author, thru-hiker and hiking coach. She is the author of Thru-Hiking Will Break Your Heart and The Sunset Route. Carrot has a new speculative fiction novel coming out later this year, hopefully. Carrot is also an avid blogger and you can find them at www.carrotquinn.com or on Instagram @carrotquinn and Twitter @CarrotQuinn Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Carrot on Hiking Margaret 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. And this week we are talking about walking and how to do it, the legs, the one in front of the other, etc. And in order to do so, we're going to be talking to an expert walker, or hiker, I suppose might be a better way of phrasing it, Carrot Quinn. And so we're going to be talking to her about all this stuff. Carrot writes a bunch of books about hiking and does a bunch of hiking. And so I'm really excited, because this has been on my mind a lot. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:55 Okay, we're back. So Carrot, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns. And then I guess kind of like your background in hiking, thru-hiking, that kind of stuff. Carrot 02:07 My name is Carrot Quinn, and my pronouns are she or they and I got into long distance hiking in 2013. And long distance hiking is different from other kinds of backpacking, because you're just out for longer, I guess. And usually also, you're on trails that have a really specific weather window, which means that you need to hike more miles per day than you would on a more leisurely backpacking trip in order to finish in a certain weather window, or because the water sources are farther apart. So, you need to hike a certain mile per a day to get to the water sources, which means that you end up using different gear, because when you're out for that long and hiking that many miles, it's a lot more strain on your joints. And so, in order to be able to do it, you need to have lighter gear that puts less strain on your joints, or else you get overuse injuries. And you also wear different shoes. So, there's this whole different kind of way of walking in the wilderness, which I got into because I'd always backpacked with a heavy backpack, and I was always in pain. And then I discovered this style, and I wasn't in pain anymore. And I was like, "Oh my God, if I do this, I can just like live outside and sleep on the ground every night and I won't be in pain." So than I got really into it. And I hiked the PCT in 2013. Margaret 03:19 What's the PCT? Carrot 03:19 The Pacific Crest Trail, which is 2,650 or 60 miles depending on how you count. It takes five months to hike. I got really obsessed with it for a while. So, I've hiked 11,000 miles. I've hiked from Mexico to Canada three times. And I've also walked across Utah, and Arizona, and done a bunch of other shorter hikes. And I've hiked finished trails where there's like a path on the ground that you walk, like the Pacific Crest Trail, and I've hiked trails where there's not a path on the ground, and you're just navigating through canyons and washes and stuff. And then I've also made my own routes, which is where you look at the maps and figure out where you can walk and then you follow the path that you created. Margaret 03:20 I was gonna say that's wild, but I guess that's literally the point. That it's wild. Okay, and then you've written about this too, right? Carrot 04:13 Yeah, so I have a writing career more or less, most years I make my living as a writer. And I was able to build that by writing about long distance hiking, because it's a pretty popular niche. I've been writing my whole life. I always wanted to be a writer, and in my 20s I wrote zines and then I started blogging in 2008. And then I started long distance hiking in 2013. And so every one of these hikes I've ever done, all 11,000 miles I've hiked, I've written a blog post every single day. And so that's how I built my writing career because then people started reading those and people love reading about long distance hiking, you know, because it's hard to get time off work. It's hard to get the gear. It's hard to access, and so people being able to read that from the comfort of their home is like really nice. And so then I wrote a book about my first long distance hike, which is called "Thru-Hiking Will Break Your Heart." And that book is great, because I made so many bad choices. So, it's like a very good story. Because you know, the best stories come from when you're like completely brand new at something. Margaret 05:21 Yeah. Carrot 05:21 And everything goes like horribly awry. Those are like the best stories. So, I wrote that book. And then my second book was actually a memoir about growing up in Alaska and my years riding freight trains. And that came out in 2021. Margaret 05:37 What's that one called? Carrot 05:43 And it's kind of sad. It's not like the happiest, but whatever. But then, I just finished a speculative fiction novel about this young person that is fleeing this destabilizing city and riding her bike across the country trying to get to Nevada. So, I'm editing that right now. Margaret 05:57 Oh my god, is that out yet? Can I read it? Carrot 05:59 No. Margaret 05:59 Fuck. Carrot 05:59 I hope it'll come out someday. I don't know what the title is, either, but, I'm editing it right now. And, if I self publish, hopefully I can get it out by the end of the year. And I'm leaning towards self publishing. So, we'll see. Hopefully, it'll be out sooner rather than later. Margaret 06:16 Okay. Well, let's talk about that off camera. I think a lot about publishing speculative fiction, and I do it sometimes. Carrot 06:26 Yeah, you write speculative fiction too. Margaret 06:28 Yeah. Carrot 06:29 We could just talk about that for hours and hours. Margaret 06:33 I mean, I also like talking about that. Can I out us to the audience about how we know each? Is that...you seem pretty public about that. Carrot 06:41 Yeah, totally. Margaret 06:41 Yeah, I first met Carrot--actually, I don't remember if it's where we first met--but, we lived together in a squat in the South Bronx in 2004. And so, I've been following Carrot's career from afar since then being like, "Oh, shit, fuck yeah, another crust punk who became a writer." Carrot 07:00 And I've also been following Margaret's career and like hearing little updates about her life over the years and being like, "Oh, that's where Margaret is, that's what Margaret's doing. Oh, it's super cool." Margaret 07:10 Yeah. Yeah. I'm really excited to have you on to talk about this. And, I admit one of the reasons I'm really excited to have you on about this--because there's a couple reasons--one is because this topic is really interesting to me and has been for a while, you know, during say, the last presidential election when there was a decent chance of a fascist coup, and there was, you know, an attempt at one, myself and a lot of other people probably had to sit there and think, "What would be involved if I had to go on foot a long way to get away from here?" Right? And I think that that kind of thing is probably on a lot of people's minds, especially on a state by state basis right now, as a lot of states become increasingly unwelcoming and things. And of course, at the moment, people are allowed to leave states by cars and stuff, but whatever, we'll get to that. But, the other reason I'm interested in is because I've recently gotten more into hiking, and I've been obsessively watching YouTube videos of thru-hikers, and mostly these people really annoy me, but the stuff is really interesting. And, your name gets mentioned a lot in the sort of pantheon of thru-hiking writers as the person that everyone's like, "Well, I'm no Carrot Quinn," or whatever. So, I just think that's really cool. That's probably why I'm excited to talk to you. So, what is involved--and this is a very broad question, but what is involved in deciding that you want to go on a very long hike? Carrot 08:42 What is involved? Well, so, I really love this intersection of topics that we're talking about because those are the two things that occupy my brain all the time is overland travel by foot, and near future societal collapse. So yeah. Margaret 08:58 Yeah, you're writing a book about that. Carrot 08:59 Yeah. And, in the novel I just wrote, she starts out on her bike, but the bike breaks, and then she's just on foot. And, one thing I love while thinking about this stuff is like--for example, have you seen The Last of Us? Margaret 09:12 Yeah. Carrot 09:13 So they're on a long overland journey, a lot of it is on foot. And there are all these plot holes in my opinion because there are things about the way they're traveling on foot that just aren't realistic. Like their footwear is uncomfortable. They never drink water. None of their gear is waterproof. They're not properly dressed for the weather. So, I think that's really.... Margaret 09:29 Yeah, they have these tiny packs, but not not in an ultralight way. Carrot 09:33 They're tiny backpacks. They're just these bottomless pits of whatever they need. Somehow they have batteries, which like, you wouldn't have batteries. So, something I'm also really fascinated about, like thinking about near future collapse, is how we're going to be living in this hybrid time where we'll have all these materials available to us that are from this society where things are mass produced, but we'll be in a society where things are no longer are going to be mass produced. So, we'll be sort of like transitioning over the course of decades, from having access to certain materials to not having access to any of those materials. And that's like really interesting to me. And The Last of Us is set 20 years after collapse, so a lot of the stuff they have access in the show I don't think they would have anymore. Margaret 10:19 They a little bit talk about it where like, "Oh, the gasoline isn't quite as good. We have to stop all the time to siphon," but then they're just kind of like, "And then we just drive," you know? Carrot 10:28 Yeah, but like the batteries, you know, for their flashlights, they just...But yes, that's really interesting to me, thinking about for example, like a long journey. Like right now, the only reason I can long distance hike is because I have all this really high tech gear because you know, 30 years ago, to do a trail, like the Pacific Crest Trail, all of the gear was super heavy. So, you had to be sort of this like elite athlete in a way. Like just anybody couldn't do it because everything was so heavy, it was really hard on your body, like it was brutal. And now, because of this like really high tech gear we have, our packs are much lighter, and we just wear trail runners, and so it's much more accessible. And so, that's the only reason I can do it physically. And the only reason I enjoy it. Like, I wouldn't enjoy it otherwise. And so, it's interesting to think about, like, you know, in the future what people would use. But, to answer your question, if you wanted to do like, you know, where we are precollapse, if you wanted to go on a long hike--you know, the thing is that one of the things that's hardest for people is getting the time off. I like trails that are more than a month long, because walking long distances is our special secret human superpower. Like, no other animal can walk long distances the way we can. Like, people think that that's how we evolved from apes is we started like walking our prey to death, because a lot of animals… Margaret 11:50 Yeah, persistence hunters! Carrot 11:49 Yeah, a lot of animals sprint and then they sleep and they sprint and they sleep. But, we can just like zombie forward like endlessly, like just fucking zombie until our prey just like collapses with exhaustion. It takes--but a lot of us like the way we live, we don't spend a lot of time walking every day. And so, it takes time to sort of unlock that ability and get our tendons--that's like the biggest thing--like, our joints used to it. And so, if you were going to do a trail, like the PCT for example, that's like a five month trail, you would start out really slow, like say doing like 15 miles a day. You know, you would train beforehand so that you could do 15 miles a day. And then you would start doing that. And then, if you started feeling any pain in your joints, you would take days off, or pull way back. And then after about a month your joints get used to it, and that like superpower is unlocked. I've seen this happen so many times, because so many people the PCT is their first trail and they start right off the couch and they're not athletes--you don't have to be an athlete, like I'm not an athlete, I'm just a regular person--and as long as you don't get injured, or have some sort of illness you can unlock this superpower. And then, it's like, it doesn't hurt anymore. And you can just walk, and walk, and walk and it's really cool. So, that's why I recommend doing a trail that's more than a month, because it takes a month for the pain to go away and to feel like you've unlocked that superpower that I think all humans have, you know, barring injury or illness. And so, if you hike like a five month trail or three months trail then you have a month of discomfort, but then you have several months where you get to exist in this really cool body. But, it's hard to get the time off. So, a lot of people who long distance hike work seasonally or they'll you know, do the kind of work where you can--like in tech or as an engineer, as a nurse or whatever--where you can work for a period of time, like a couple of years and then quit, and then go back to work. The biggest demographics on a long trail are people just out of college and retired people, because those are the two people who have the easiest time finding that chunk of time. Margaret 12:30 That makes a lot of sense to me. I've always kind of wanted to do this, and it's never quite been a high enough priority. And this brings me to not the most important question, but my main question about it. I know that you can't thru-hike any of the existing like triple crown, meaning Pacific Coast Trail, Appalachian Trail, and whatever the third one is...Continental Divide Trail? What's the third one? Carrot 14:12 Yeah, yeah. Margaret 14:13 I know you can't bring a dog with you on those three because they go through National parks. But what do you do about dogs? I mean, like because in my mind my dog has way more energy than me, but I'm realizing that my dog has way more energy than me not necessarily in the sustained persistence hunter way that you're talking about. Carrot 14:31 Exactly. Margaret 14:32 So, I'm curious what is a limit of--I mean, obviously every dog is gonna be different and things like that-- but can you thru-hike with a dog if you're going way slower and you're not doing the seasonal running thing? You're just like....yeah, somewhere there's a question in there. Carrot 14:52 Yeah, totally. So you can. People do bring their dogs on the long trails. You kind of need a support person, so you can hand off your dog before you go through the no dog sections, and then get your dog back. It's considered cruel to bring a dog on a five month hike, because the way they exercise is so different than the way that we exercise. Margaret 15:11 Right. Carrot 15:11 They go really hard. And then they need more rest than we do. Like in Alaska, they have the Iditarod, which is this big sled dog race. And, it just happened. It just finished, and it's 1000 miles long. And the person who just won did it in eight days. So, his dogs ran over 100 miles a day. And so, these dogs trained really hard. And that is like the pinnacle of what they can do. So they could go really far, but they still can't necessarily go 20 miles a day, everyday for five months. And so, it's actually really rare for someone to thru-hike with a dog. You can do it, but it goes against their natural kind of the way their energy is throughout the day. Margaret 15:48 Right. Carrot 15:49 And so, one reason it's discouraged is because it's really hard to know, if your dog is too hot, it's hard to know if your dog is tired. Like a lot of dogs will follow their person, you know, to the point of injury, you know, because they just want to stay with you. So, people do it. But, it's rare. It's not natural for them. Like, we can do it and thrive. And they just kind of are low key suffering and maybe about to break. It's hard to tell. Margaret 16:28 Yeah, no, and so I guess I'm kind of curious. There's like two scenarios I imagine. One is because there's no one I can leave my dog with for a long period of time. So, I just sort of assume I will not be thru-hiking anytime soon, right? Because, you know, there's a creature I'm responsible for, and no one else is currently responsible for that creature. But I'm like, is there a sense of like you don't want to take your dogs on a month long hike? Do you want to take your dogs on a two week hike? Do you want to take your dogs only...Like, my dog loves going on day hikes with me. And from when I was like, you know, an oogle, a crusty traveler, like a lot of the dogs that I was around--I mean, obviously, not all of them--some of them were treated very badly. But, many of the dogs were very happy in that they got to be with their person all day and they were always like exercising and stuff. But, that wasn't like we're walking 20 miles today. That's often like we're walking five miles today, we're, you know, hitchhiking. We're doing all these other things. I'm just wondering if you have a sense of 1) The limit in terms of like the now, and then 2) If there's a sense of what you would think for if your protagonist escaping the apocalypse has a dog like, what are ways to work around that? Like I could imagine...like, if I had to leave, right, do I get a dog backpack? It's about 45 pounds. I would be sad. But like, if you know, if I'm not hiking for fun and I'm hiking for "I gotta get somewhere," right? Carrot 17:58 Yeah. So, people hiking the long distance trails, there's like a standard sort of blanket mileage that varies, but people generally say like 20 miles a day is kind of the standard. And so, over the course of like a month, three months, five months different dog breeds are different, but depending on your dog that could be too much for your dog. Like, your dog might need more rest days. But like, maybe your dog could do 20 miles a day for three days, but then they would need a day or two off, you know? Margaret 18:27 Right. Carrot 18:27 And so what you would have to do is instead of being tied to the weather window of the trail, you would be tied to how your dog is doing. So, you would just have to really be in touch with all your dog's signs, like does your dog...Like, know how to tell if your dog is too hot, if your dog's feet hurt, all these different things, and then you would just have to adjust your travel based on your dog. So, you just wouldn't...you wouldn't necessarily be able to hike the PCT in the five month window. And you would end up if you were in an arid area you would end up carrying more water. Because if you go slower than it's farther between water sources because the West is so dry. So, you would carry more water. But yeah, you would just plan the hike much differently. And it would be your own journey with your dog. Margaret 19:13 Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, I realized...I pretty quickly disabused myself of the notion that I was going to be hiking the Appalachian Trail, or PCT, or anything anytime soon. Secretly, this podcast is me just asking people for advice about my own life and problems and then hoping it's universally usable in some ways. But that makes sense to me. And then it does seem like, you know, everything I'm reading about, what you're talking about, like hiking with lighter packs and all of that, and how it has all these advantages in being able to go further and be more sustainable and all of these things. And it does seem like a lot of the choices that people would have to make in different survival scenarios might counteract that, because if I'm talking about like...Okay, if I was hiking through the desert with the dog, I need way more water, which means I'm carrying a heavier pack and then also if I'm out longer I might need a different level of survival equipment. It seems like it would kind of escalate pack weight very quickly? Carrot 20:07 Yeah. But, I think that the sort of minimalism that one learns--like, it's the sort of strategic minimalism that you learn when you do a five month hike because all you have to think about every day is like what you're carrying and how heavy it feels and so you get really good at like...Just, it's like strategy. And so I think that would carry over, where even if you, you know, didn't have all these high tech materials, were in the desert, had a dog, like all these different things, your pack will still end up lighter than if you didn't use this sort of really fun strategic thing that I'm sure you've encountered on YouTube. Margaret 20:44 Yeah, yeah. No, go ahead. Sorry. Carrot 20:47 Yeah, yeah. But, it would be heavier. But then you would just work around that. Like, if your pack is heavier you don't go as many miles a day because it's harder on your joints. And you just, you know, you just work around that too. Like, last fall was my second season hunting in Alaska tagging along on my friends hunts, and I've never had to carry a pack as heavy as I do hunting. And that's been like a whole new learning curve being like, Okay, this is a 60 pound pack. Like, I can only go this many miles. You know, I have to really be careful like all these different things. Margaret 21:21 Yeah. Yeah, that is the thing that I because I, you know, I come from this background of like failed train hopping and regular hitchhiking. And like, these long distance walks and things like that, but not hiking. And I would need what I need to sleep and all of these things. And so, you know, we used to kind of make fun of ultralight hikers, who are like, you know, shaving off every ounce of what they could And it's like, well, I knew Pogo Dave who traveled with a big metal Pogo stick or whatever, right? And, you know, walked across the country pushing a shopping cart and shit. But then you just realize how different these setups are, and what their goals are is so completely different. And so yeah, I don't know quite how to phrase it, but I'm so interested in the difference between the 60 pound hunting pack and the 9.8 pound, you know, backpacking pack or whatever. And i did, I ran across these people. And I My first thought was like, "Well, fuck that. Just like carry what you need. Whatever," you know. And then slowly, when you see the people who are like less annoying about it, you're like, "Oh, I think I get it. I think I understand why they're doing this," you know? Carrot 21:21 Yeah, it's about injury prevention not being in pain and knowing what your goal is. So, if your goal is to finish a five month trail hiking 12 hours a day for five months, your chance of injury is really high. So, the lighter your pack is, to an extent, you know, the lighter your pack is the lower your chance of injury, and the less pain you'll be in. So, it actually really increases your enjoyment. The only caveat being--the rules I tell people because I do long distance hiking coaching and I do these like guided trips where I help people like make their gear lists and stuff--the rules...Here are the rules: you need to be warm, well fed, comfortable enough at night to sleep well, and be prepared for all the different weather you're gonna encounter at that season in that area. And as long as your gear fits those rules you meet those guidelines. Like, the lighter your pack is the more fun you're gonna have. Margaret 23:28 Yeah, it makes sense to me. I just have so many questions about ultralight stuff. It's just so fascinating to me. It seems like one of the things where people go without, to me, what seems like emergency equipment. Like, because I think about...it seems like I'm watching people--and I expect them wrong, that's why I'm presenting this to you is because you have a lot of experience with this and have tried different types of hiking--but it's like, if there's something that I keep around just in case, right, in case something terrible happens or whatever that I don't use it on a daily basis, and so it starts becoming one of those things that you could imagine getting rid of. And then you're like, "But when you need it, you need it." And so it seems like that is what I worry about when people talk about barely having first aid kits and shit like that, you know, or the kind of gear that if like the weather gets a lot worse unexpectedly--because it seems to me that if you have this very minimalist setup that works for most days but then it doesn't work for like the sudden really bad weather days--It doesn't seem like it's a good enough piece of gear. But, maybe that is being taken into consideration and I'm just being annoyed at people or like retro actively defending the fact that I used to carry this ridiculously heavy bag and I injured my chest with it once when I was like 28. I don't know. Carrot 24:48 Yeah, that's the thing is if your pack is too heavy it will injure you, and that will ruin your hike. So, it doesn't matter what emergency preparedness stuff you're carrying, like the emergency is that you ruined your hike and you have to get off trail and your hike is ruined. So, the thing is things are knowable. Like the world is knowable. Like when you go to drive your car you know what's likely to go wrong. And you know what would be a freak accident that you're not going to prepare for, like the stuff you have in your car. Like my car burns oil, so I carry oil. I carry coolant just because my car is old. I carry jumper cables. It's winter, so I carry a sleeping bag, you know, because I'm in Alaska, and I have an old car. These are the things that are likely to go wrong. I don't carry anything for if I get struck by lightning because there's not--I mean, if I lived like in the high mountains in Colorado in July, I would have to consider lightning--but in Alaska it's all central [uninterpretable word], so you don't think about lightning. I don't carry anything for shark attacks. I carry bear spray for a bear. But so, it's just knowing what's likely to happen versus freak accidents that don't make sense to be prepared for. So, people might not carry a generic first aid kit, but they do carry supplies for all of the medical problems that actually happen regularly. Like I don't carry just some generic first aid kit from REI because I don't know what to do if I break my leg. If I break my leg like I need a helicopter, you know? But that would be a real freak accident. That's extremely unlikely to happen. But, what does happen and what can end your hike and does end people's hike a lot are infected blisters, sprained ankles, and things like that. And I carry stuff, and I have treated stuff that like multiple times. And, I always have what I need. Or, like gear failures. Like I carry dental floss with a needle inside, which I learned from riding trails. And that's come in handy. So, I always have...and then things for chafe because chafe happens a lot and can be really painful. So, that can get you off trail. So, people actually, they might not have like, they might not have something for like a trauma wound, which would be like...I don't even know what a trauma wound...I don't even know what I'm saying. But like...or a puncture wound. But, that would be like a real freak accident. But they do have, in my experience, people do have stuff for the things that actually happen, and the same with the weather. Because, the weather in every spot on earth for whatever season you have to be there is knowable. You can research it, you can know what the trends are. Even with climate change, you can know what's likely to happen. You can talk to other hikers. Every long distance trail every year has a Facebook group. And people as they're hiking, will post on that Facebook group. So you can know like, "Oh, I'm climbing to 9000 feet tomorrow. And these people ahead of me say there's ice. I should have microspikes." Or like, "There's a storm coming in, and the people ahead of me say that the river is really swollen and it's gonna be hard to cross so I should like take a day off and wait for the river to go down." So, it's just..it's instead of carrying a bunch of stuff and having no idea where you are or what's happening, and just having all this stuff you just do your research. And like long distance hikers obsessively research when they're on trail because that's all you have to think about all the time. So, as long as--I mean, you can be reckless and not have any of that stuff--but then that will affect your chances of actually finishing, which is what everyone wants to do. Because, you want to have this like fun, full immersion experience. So generally, in my experience, people are prepared even though they don't have like generic first aid kits. Margaret 28:13 No, that makes sense. I think I have a like defensive maximalism, you know? It's not a maximal...Well, I mean, I guess it depends what you're trying to do. Like, it's not a like I'm going hiking and I need a folding saw, you know? Although if I'm gonna go live in the woods for a while, I want a folding saw, but like, you know, it's a very different goal, right? So I guess I wonder... Carrot 28:39 Okay, can I say one more thing? Margaret 28:40 Yeah, yeah, please. Carrot 28:41 They say that you pack your fears. And, so say you're afraid of getting hurt on trail. So you're like, I should bring all this extra stuff. That extra weight will hurt you. So, that's the irony. So that's like the irony in all of it. And the thing is, a lot of people start long distance hiking that way because that's kind of the way we all learned about the outdoors because we're an urban...Humans are urban. Like, humans in the US are urban. We're not little feral creatures that live in the woods. We don't have these like intimate relationships with like what the wind is doing, or like when the poppies are blooming, you know? And so we go out there and we don't have any idea what the fuck is going on or where we are. And so we want to pack our fears. And then as soon as you start a long distance hike every ounce you're carrying hurts. And so all day, every day, all you have to think about is sort of--as you're being like punished for carrying all your fears--all you have to think about is like, "What do I actually need?" And so that's really common for people to start with really heavy packs and then really quickly they're like, "Okay, I know what I really need and what I don't need." And you also start to learn what you as an individual need on trail because everyone is different. Everyone has like a different sort of comfort zone. So, it's a process because we're not...We're urban. We're like, we don't know what the fuck is going on in nature. Margaret 30:06 Well, I think a lot of the outdoorsy type folks will also over pack, but kind of in a different way. But it's more of the like...it's not thru-hiking. It's the like bushcraft version. It's the like, I'm gonna go build up a cabin version, you know? Which, I think is overkill for most people. Like most people, when they're imagining like disaster scenarios and the escape from disaster scenarios you don't need to go build a log cabin in the woods. You need to like get to a state where they're not trying to kill you for being trans or whatever. And it is a different thing. So, I guess I take back my own caveat. Carrot 30:42 Yeah, I think long distance hikers love to make fun of bushcrafters and probably bushcrafters love to make fun of ultralight backpackers. You know, I was thinking about bushcraft the other day, because I was skiing--or I was trying to ski, because I'm learning so I don't really know what I'm doing--and I was just looking at my gear and looking at my friend's gear and I was like, "Everything we have right now is because of plastic. Like literally everything." And then I was like, "What would this even be like if we didn't have plastic?" I was like, "We'd be wearing like wool, and leather, and like animal skins, and everything would be made out of wood." And then I started thinking about bushcraft. And I was like, "That's kind of what it is." Bushcraft is like outdoor stuff without synthetic materials in a way. Margaret 31:23 Yeah. Carrot 31:24 Which is like an interesting way to think about it, which is really different. It's really different. And so, if your gear is just heavier, there's just different things you can do. It's like just a whole different kind of thing. Margaret 31:35 Yeah, I really. No, that's such a fascinating way of thinking about the difference between bushcraft and hiking and then like...You know, I think it's funny because it's like, if someone decides that they're like, "I'm gonna get into outdoors walking stuff." There's all of these different cultures and ways of looking at it. And you have the bushcraft version and you have the ultralight hiking version and then you have like--traditional backpacking seems like sort of the weird in between--and then you also have the tactical version, where it's like, "This is how you get into enemy territory with like, you know, when you're stuck carrying like 30 pounds of ammunition." or wherever the fuck. And it's like, it's so interesting to me how it breaks down even to different like shelter types, right, like the bushcrafters like--although it does go full circle. I would say that bushcrafters and ultralight hikers are both the ones who are like "A tarp is all I need," or whatever, versus traditional backpacking where you're like, "I want a fucking tent." You know? Carrot Yeah, it's really interesting, our different relationships with nature in this year of our Lord, 2023 in the US. Margaret 32:41 Yeah. And there's ways that people have to think about kind of all of them if they're trying to prepare. Although I can see how you can get lost over preparing in thinking about every single possible thing that could go wrong. If you're traveling in a vehicle, it's a little bit easier to do that. Right? It's a little bit easier to be prepared for every possible contingency or whatever. Carrot 33:02 Can I tell you an interesting story? Margaret 33:04 Yeah. Carrot 33:04 I love thinking about this stuff. So, we we live in a time in human history where we're very urban, the most urban we've ever been, and so a lot of people don't spend much time outdoors at all, which, you know, is like they just can't. Like, they don't have access or there's so many different reasons. And, the people who do spend time outdoors, access it through these really different channels that almost aren't communicating with each other. Margaret Yeeeeah. Carrot 33:31 But, the tactical hunter versus the ultralight backpacker, and it's really interesting, because they've developed outdoors cultures that are so different. Like, in Alaska, for example, there are a lot of grizzly bears, which grizzly bears are dangerous, but they're also very knowable. So, you can kind of get to know grizzly bear culture and then you can do sort of like best practices and your chances of being attacked by a bear become extremely low. And so, depending on what you're doing, different people have ideas about what those best practices are. Margaret 34:04 Bear spray versus 10 millimeter? Carrot 34:07 I mean, bear spray works better. Margaret 34:09 Yeah, no, I know. Yeah. Carrot 34:12 But, for example, a few years ago, I was going on a four day backpacking trip in the Brooks range with some of my friends from Anchorage. And the Brooks range is in the Arctic. It's really remote and ironically, the Grizzlies are much less dangerous up there because the area we were going has no salmon. So, there are much fewer Grizzlies. There are just way fewer Grizzlies. And also, we're north of treeline, so there's no tree cover. And when Grizzlies are dangerous...if you see a grizzly from a distance, and it knows what you are, if it can smell you, it will run away like so fast. But, if you surprise a grizzly at close range, they feel like they have to like defend their honor and that's when they attack. It's like okay, they think it's like a challenge. They're like, "Now I must fight you!" Margaret 34:58 Understandable. Carrot 34:58 So, you want to avoid brush and trees in areas where there are grizzlies like as much as you can, avoid brush and trees. So, the Arctic is north of treeline. So it's a really safe place because there are fewer Grizzlies. And if you see one, it's like really far away and the two of you can just give each other a wide berth, because they're actually very scared. So, I was going on a trip with my friends, who are all from Anchorage, which is actually a very dangerous place because there are tons of grizzlies and like once a year someone dies. But, my friends were like, "Oh my gosh, we're going to the Arctic. What are we gonna do about the Grizzlies?" And I was like "You guys, like it's actually safer there. There's fewer bears." And they're like "We should bring Ursacks," which are these like Kevlar bags that the grizzlies can't bite through. It's like a bear can, but lighter. They're great. They're like, "We should bring Ursacks and we should line Ursacks with the scent proof plastic bags and we should put the Ursacks really far from our camp." And I was like, "We can do all that. But actually, it's like safer there than where we live." Like, hiking the Arctic is safer than going on a day hike in Anchorage, like 20 times safer. And, and I was like, "You guys go on day hikes all the time." Anyway, we went and we were all like super careful. Like, you know, when we set up camp, we would go cook like on a hill over there. And then we would put our food in our Ursack, and we could go put it on a hill over there. And then our tents would be here. And it would be like, you know, we would be up wind of where we cooked and like all these different things. And I was like, "Okay, great, you know, that's fine." And then a few weeks later, I went on a moose hunting trip with my friend Birch, who his whole way of knowing the outdoors is hunting, which is also really common in Alaska. And there were five of us and we were hiking eight miles into this drainage through Willow Brush with pack rafts and then we were going to get the moose and we were gonna pack raft out. So we got in and he got the moose. And we processed it. And you know, we were covered in blood. The pack rafts were covered in blood. Like, everything was covered in blood. And, we had these huge pieces of moose in cotton game bags that were soaked in blood like piled our pack rafts. We got we got to camp...Oh, no one has bear spray. I'm the only one with bear spray. You know? They have rifles. But, what good is a rifle gonna to do when you're in your sleeping bag? You know what I mean? Margaret 34:58 Yeah, totally. Carrot 35:29 Like that's when the bear could come for your blood or whatever. And, we get to camp and we like take these huge pieces of moose and lay them out on the gravel bar just overnight out in the open. And we all have our tent set up. And I was like, "Hey, Birch, do you ever use an Ursack?" And he was like, "What's an Ursack?" And, our moose hunt was in an area with way more Grizzlies. And there was brush everywhere and we saw like three grizzlies. And it was just so funny, because they weren't concerned at all. And, I think part of it is that guns give people this like false sense of confidence around bears, even though with bears like things happen really fast and you need something you can grab really fast. If you need to be like a sharpshooter, it's not very accessible, like you need something that anyone can use and another part of it....Go ahead. Margaret 38:07 Also, if you shoot a bear--I'm not speaking from experience, I'm speaking from reading about this-there's been a bunch of studies that shooting bears is not a particularly effective way of stopping bears in the short term and pepper spray or bear spray is very effective. Like, even if a bear is charging and I manage to shoot it that doesn't mean I'm safe. Carrot 38:25 Yeah, you have to have a certain gun. I don't know that much about guns. You have to have a certain gun and you shoot it in a certain place. So, the odds of all that happening like extremely fast...Whereas bear spray, you spray them in there. [makes a shrieking sound like a bear that's been maced] "It's burning!" You know, and then they run away. Margaret 38:41 Have you had to do that? Have you ever sprayed a bear? Carrot 38:43 No. Margaret 38:44 Okay. Carrot 38:45 But, I've been around a lot of bears, but I haven't yet had to spray one. Margaret 38:49 I'm glad. I'm just curious. Anyway, I interrupted you twice. Please continue. Carrot 38:55 Yeah. So, his conceptualization of what the danger was...Oh! That's the other thing. So, I think part of the reason hunters don't--this is my theory--I think part of the reason hunters don't think about bears is because the guns give them this false sense of confidence, even though bears do sometimes attack hunters. The other thing is bears have bear culture. Like, in different areas, bears learn different things and pass that knowledge on to their cubs. Like, some places, if you do a bear hang, the bear doesn't know what it is. And it can't get it. Other places, bears are really good at getting bear hangs, you know? And, I think that bears know when hunting season is and they know what hunters smell like. That's my theory. Margaret 39:40 And they're like, "I'm staying the fuck away from them. They all have guns." [inflected as a question] Carrot 39:43 I don't know if that's true, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. And that that's one reason that hunters don't have to take the same precautions. Margaret 39:50 I mean, it's sort of interesting because guns are notorious for a false sense of security. But, in this case it's like, even though it's sort of a false sense of security, it's not the right way to handle a bear, but maybe that kind of like confidence of walking through the woods with a group of people and doing your thing, maybe that's a better way to live. Like... [trailing off laughing] Carrot 40:18 There's also...so when an animal is a predator, it moves differently walking than when an animal is a prey animal, and hunters move the way predators move, and hikers tend to move, I don't know, all sorts of ways, but hunters move the way predators move. And so that could be something that communicates to the bear that these are hunters. And to be more scared, I don't know. Margaret 40:35 No, that's so interesting. I'm really fascinated by these different ways of interacting with the forest. Because, it's like, you know, I live rurally. But, it doesn't actually...it provides me access to nature in that, I can walk out my door, and there's a lot more trees than houses. I can see one house, and I can see 10,000 trees, you know? But, there's also just like private land everywhere. So, I actually can't go hiking out my door. I'm as far away from hiking here as as if I lived in a--not a big city, but a medium city. You know, when I want a good scenic five mile hike, I drive an hour. It's not as many miles, because rural roads take you forever to get anywhere. But, it's just such a different way of interacting with... And then, all like folks around here are a lot more likely to drive down with ATVs, and go like ATVing and shit like that rather than specifically go hiking. But, they are still people who are interacting with the woods constantly. And so, in my mind, I feel like I'm trying to find...I'm on this quest to find out which like culture's way of interacting with the wild and specifically around gear honestly, is the best for the preparedness person. And this is obviously going to be completely different depending on what your fucking threat model is, where you live, what your goals are. But, I think I'm subconsciously doing it. I'm trying to be like, "Do I want to be like a hunter? Do I want to be like a tactical bro? Do I want to be like an ultralight hiker? Do I want to be like an oogle? Like, you know, which method? Carrot 42:16 So, I have a lot of thoughts about what you just said. I think this would be my strategy, which may be the path I'm taking. Margaret 42:22 That is the goal of me asking you things, is to find your strategy. Carrot 42:25 Yeah. Because I also believe--well I don't know if this is exactly what you believe--but I think that all supply chains and infrastructure, and grids, and things are going to collapse in the next few decades. Margaret 42:39 Yeah...[On a] long enough timeline: Yeah. Carrot 42:42 I think if one learns the strategy of ultralight backpacking, which relies heavily on really high tech gear--that is currently being manufactured using these intensive processes that rely on supply chains and things--if one learns ultralight backpacking and hunting sort of strategy and gear, and like bushcraft, I think between those three skill sets, one would have the best chance of creating this like hybrid model for like, say, if you needed to walk across the country. Like in The Last of Us in their walk across the country--so, their world is like 20 years post collapse of supply chains manufacturing, like all those different things--I don't think they're carrying the right gear. So, knowing what they more or less, like guessing what they had access to, some changes I would have made is: They're wearing like leather boots. I think Ellie's wearing...What are they called? Margaret 43:45 Maybe Chucks? But I can't remember? Carrot 43:47 Yeah, Chuck Taylors. Margaret 43:49 I think. I can't remember. Yeah. Carrot 43:51 Like, if they have access to shoes, obviously, which maybe is unrealistic, but in the show, they have access to shoes. I would get some running shoes, or trail runners. And then, their backpacks are made of looks like heavy canvas. And, I would get a backpack made of a lighter weight material. And then I would line it with something like a trash bag to make it waterproof. Because, that's what I do now. I just carry a trash bag folded up, and I use that. And then, they weren't filtering their water. And also, all of their layers seemed to be cotton, which eventually, you know, in the future, we'll get to a point where we'll just have like natural materials again. But, if you still have access to a cotton like denim jacket, you can probably still find synthetic layers which are much smarter when it's cold and wet. So, I would have them wearing synthetic layers if they could. Margaret 44:46 That makes a lot of sense to me. Okay, but I've read--again, I expect I'm wrong and I'm running things past you for this reason--I've read that one of the reasons that people wear trail runners, but they sort of expect them to not last, necessarily even a full thru-hike, as compared to like hiking boots, which are expected to last like multiple thru-hikes. Am I wrong about a durability difference between these types of shoes? Carrot 45:15 You're right. So, the trade off is with hiking boots, they last a long time, but they turn your feet to hamburger if you're walking very far day after day. So, in The Last of Us they were walking. I mean, just like guessing by like how far they walk, they were walking all day, every day, day after day. So, in that circumstance, the hiking boots would last, but they would destroy your feet and maybe keep you from being able to continue on your journey. So, I guess the question would be...Like, the way I long distance hike right now, I change my trail runners every 400 miles because that's when the cushion gets more compact. And so, they don't provide as much cushion. So, I'll get more foot pain. But, if I was in a situation where I didn't have access to a lot of trail runners, I would just wear them for longer. And then,...I guess it would be a question of, can you eventually get to a point where your feet have adjusted to leather boots so that you can do that many miles day after day? Because, in traditional backpacking, people just didn't do as many miles day after day. Or, there's also you know, there's a lot of different... Margaret 46:26 Maybe they're only going eight miles a day? Carrot 46:29 But they went really far. I don't remember, but... Margaret 46:32 I think that's movie magic. Carrot 46:34 But, they went from the East Coast to Wyoming so... Margaret 46:37 I think they break down and they get most of the way out in car and then they break down. Anyway. Sorry. Please continue. Carrot 46:43 Yeah, maybe they were taking lots of breaks. Okay, so there is an alternative, I think, in this scenario. So, in Mexico, there are people, indigenous people, who are long distance runners and long distance walkers. I don't know if it's more than one tribe, or...I don't know. But, that book Born to Run talks about these people a lot. Margaret 47:04 The barefoot... Carrot 47:04 But yeah. So, they make sandals out of old tires. And, that's what they wear. Because sandals...So, the thing about hiking 20 miles a day, day after day, is it's less like backpacking, more like running a marathon. So, you want to think "Would I run a marathon in this?" because whatever you're wearing will rub you to death. So, boots will rub you to death. So, say trail runners aren't accessible, if you made sandals out of old tires, those are so minimalist that they might not rub you to death the way boots would, but you would be able to make new pairs and they would last a long time. So, actually, people in Mexico have maybe figured it out. Like, that might be the answer is sandals made out of tires. Margaret 47:47 I consciously believe you. But, I've been wearing boots my entire life. And in my mind, they're like...I mean, in my head, the compromises that I used to wear lace up steel toed boots and now I wear like tactical boots with a zipper down the side that are like, mostly mesh, and stuff. And in my mind, I'm like, these are clearly the perfect boots. These are clearly the best boots for every situation, how could they possibly be bad? But, I accept that you have the experience and you're probably right. My brain won't accept it. Carrot Would you want to a run a marathon in them? Margaret 48:26 I don't have the lung capacity to run. I have never been able to. So, I can't. That is a meaningless thing for me, right? Because, I've never been able to run. I mean, I can run, right? But, I like I lose....I can't imagine. But, I don't know. I mean, I used to just...whatever, I used to just be an idiot and kind of an asshole. And so I would just be like, "Oh, whatever. Like why are people complaining? Just toughen up. Just wear steel toed shoes all the time." Whatever. Bullshit. And, I'm no longer on that page. But, in my mind, I'm like... [makes grumpy noises and trails off] Carrot 49:01 Yeah, so I have two more thoughts about footwear. One is..so the reason backpackers used to always wear boots is because their gear was so heavy. So, when I go hunting--I actually had to buy my first pair of hiking boots, because if I'm carrying a 60 pound pack--you know how we occasionally roll our ankles when we walk and it's not a big deal? It doesn't really sprain your ankle really. But, if you're carrying a 60 pound pack, it's like much more likely to sprain your ankle. So, that's the point of boots. So, when I'm hunting, I only walk eight miles a day and it still hurts my feet, because the boots really hurt my feet. But, it keeps me from worrying about spraining my ankle if I roll it. Whereas, with the backpacking gear that exists now, it's not as heavy, so you can roll your ankle without spraining it, so you can wear trail runners. So, in this scenario, if your pack was really heavy, you probably would want to wear boots and then you would just compromise on how many miles per day you could walk, and your feet would be in pain. Margaret 49:56 That makes sense. Carrot 49:57 And then my other thought...but, hopefully in this scenario, you would be able to create this sort of hybrid kit with all your knowledge of like hunting, bushcrafting, and ultralight backpacking and the materials, we still have access to that your pack, maybe your pack wouldn't be crazy heavy. And, then my other thought is: So, in Mexico, there are people who run long distances who create these sandals out of old tires, which is a resource that will be around for a bit. And then in North America, or like further north North America where it's colder, traditionally, people had footwear that they made that they could walk long distances in that also was warmer, like things like moccasins and different...more like, flexible comfy footwear that also wasn't a boot. So, I think even if you didn't have access to trail runners, I don't think the only option would be boots for their durability. I think you could make like some sort of show. Yeah, that's my theory. Margaret 50:54 No, no, no, this is really interesting. Because, I'm like, imagining like the ultimate setup, in my mind, would be like, nonshiny materials, because in my head, I've heard it referred to as like, outdoors gear being either like tactical or technical, and sort of an aesthetic difference in a lot of ways. Like, everyone's wearing fleece, but some people are wearing camo fleece, and some people are wearing, you know, bright colored fleece or whatever, right? Except for me. I'm walking around in a fucking hoodie. And, this is...I'm slightly smarter than that. That's not true, the last time we went hiking, I was just in my Carhart coat over a hoodie. But, it also wasn't long distance. So, it doesn't really matter. Carrot 51:39 I mean, if you know there's not going to be cold rain, you probably won't get hypothermia. Margaret 51:45 Yeah. Yeah. So ,if you, I guess you're already north. If you had to leave on foot, you would be going for sort of a hybrid setup? I guess if it depends on the situation. Now, I'm already answering for you in my head. Never mind. Carrot 51:45 Yeah, let's say I had to walk into Canada, for example, which it would be really easy to sneak...I'm not allowed in Canada. But, it would be really easy to sneak...Because, there's one protest in particular on my record that they don't like from 2003. And then, there's all the like misdemeanor train stuff for my 20s. But, that's old enough that they don't they don't care about it. But, they really don't like this protest thing So, they just don't let me in. But, it would be really easy to sneak into Canada at the Alaska-Canada-border. So, let's say that's what I wanted to do. Well, the thing about Alaska is, there are a lot of really big rivers to cross. So, you would have to consider that like, would you either carry a pack raft, which would add weight, like between the pack raft, and the paddle, and like a PFD, you know, that would add like 10-15 pounds. Margaret 52:16 What's that? What's a PFD? A personal flotation device? Carrot 52:54 Yeah, just like a life jacket. Yeah. Or, would you, you know, just build a raft every time you got to a massive river and just case by case basis troubleshoot trying to cross these rivers. So, and then another consideration would be, so wherever you are, if you decide to go on a long journey, like where you are, for example, you'd want to know how the plant communities change at different elevations. That would help you plan your route. Like, if you were like, "At this one elevation, there's this really thorny brush that's impossible to get through and really terrible." And so, as you were passing through that elevation, you want to find like a road, or a trail, or something that goes through it as you're making your route. And then, if you were like, "Well, at this elevation, it's like this open forest, it's really nice." So then, you would plan your route as much as you could through the landscape that was easier walking. Or, you would be like, "There's these old roads." Like, Alaska doesn't have many roads, but like other places have a lot of old logging roads and mining roads. So, like finding those, you know, and then planning your route. And then, for me, it's pretty rainy in the summer, so, I guess I'd want to have a rain jacket, and rain pants, and trash bags to keep all my stuff dry, and good synthetic layers that were warm, even when they were wet. If I have a down sleeping bag, I'd want to make sure to have like really good trash bag waterproofing system for my sleeping bag in my backpack so it would stay dry. And then, as far as like, fuel goes, I guess it depends on what's available, maybe backbreaking fuel isn't available. Maybe I'm just making fires. And, the challenge would just be drying out if it happens to just rain for two months straight, like figuring out when I can dry out, which maybe it would be a matter of like making fires if the rain never stops. So, staying dry to prevent hypothermia would probably be like the biggest challenge, and then getting over these big rivers. And then for food, if backpacking food wasn't available, I have no idea how i would survive. I think, Okay, this is what I would do. I would have...Let's say that things have collapsed to the point where no one is regulating hunting. So, for example, like, as an Alaskan resident, even though I'm an Alaskan resident, like, I can't hunt seal. The only people who can hunt seal and whale are like, people in native communities in really specific areas. And so, I can't hunt seal, but realistically, if one is to live off the land in Alaska, you're gonna get most of your calories from fat from sea mammals. So, I would need to have figured that out in advance. Like, I would need like seal oil, and berries and dried salmon and dried meat, but I would need a lot of fat to get most of my calories from because there aren't any carbs up here that you can eat. Yeah. I think that would be my strategy. Margaret 55:58 Okay. Okay. That all make sense to me. Yeah, in my mind, because where I live is like, if I had to walk to Canada, I would be skirting back and forth across roads. On the other hand, maybe all the bridges across all the rivers is exactly where they would like, you know, the militias would be laying ambushes or whatever, you know. So actually, maybe all that stuff, but it never even occurred to me that there's something called a packraft until today. It's a neat concept. Carrot 56:27 You could bring a pool floatie. Margaret 56:29 Yeah, yeah, totally. Carrot 56:30 Just raid a CVS or a Walgreens. Margaret 56:35 I'm planning...I'm saving up to buy a freeze dryer. This is my like wingnut prepper thing that I really want. They're like, they started about $2,500 for home ones. And then, I can just give everyone backpacking food forever. Carrot 56:54 Cool. Margaret 56:55 But, it would work better if I was combining with, you know, honestly, if you're in a city and around people who dumpster dive, that's where a freeze dryer shines. Take your free food and preserve it forever. Or, if you garden a lot, or grow a lot of food. Okay, well. There's so much I want to talk to you about, but I think we're kind of running down on time. Carrot 57:18 We've almost figured it out. Margaret 57:19 I know. It's a combo of all of the...You have to multiclass between ultralight and hunter and then you're pretty much good. And with a little bit of bushcrafter, which I feel like the hunter is a little bit close to. Go ahead. Carrot 57:34 There's definitely a lot of skills I don't have that would be useful in this scenario. Like, I can't snare a rabbit. That would be really useful. I guess I would want to be hunting, but like, I don't know if I would have enough bullets or like, what kind of gun or like...Would I have like a bow and arrow? I don't know enough about hunting to know what kind of hunting I would be doing, or if I would just be carrying enough seal oil and dried moose meat to make the whole journey. So, I don't know. I don't know about that bit. Margaret 58:06 Yeah, no, I basically have already decided that my veganism lasts until it's like me or the animal. You know? And I actually believe very strongly in that...Like, I actually don't think there's anything ethically wrong with hunting at all. I just have no personal interest in an eating it. But...For anyone who's listening is wondering why vegan says that, in this case, I believe that you're not raising the animal in captivity, it lives free, whatever, people eat things, that's fine. This is the thing we get the most angry people writing about is whenever we talk about either veganism or nonveganism, people get really upset about, and vegans always hate me because I'm like a self hating vegan or whatever, because I'm like, I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with eating meat. Anyway, I just avoid thinking about all that stuff, which doesn't work because then I can't just be like, magically after the apocalypse, I like...I'm a decent shot. So at least I have that. Right? But, I don't know, fucking how to stalk, or dress, or cook. You know? But I'll just magically learn it in a survival situation. That's always the best time to learn. [Said very sarcastically] Carrot 59:19 Yeah, they say that people learn fastest when you're like a little bit stressed out. So also, you live in an area where you can grow a lot of foods. So, like you wouldn't be as reliant. In Alaska, you can't grow grains. You can't grow beans, like you can't. Traditionally, people lived off animal fat for most of their calories. Margaret 59:41 Totally. Carrot 59:43 I think it would sort of like quickly revert to that like, "Okay, we have a lot of fish." But, where you are, it would make sense to like grow a lot of like grain and stuff and that would be really good food to have. Margaret 59:56 Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna have so many freeze dried potatoes. A fucking entire basement full of freeze dried potatoes. What could go wrong? Well, is there anything? Last last thoughts? Or you know, do you want to talk about, you want to advertise your books again? Or, talk about the stuff that you run or where people can find you? Carrot 1:00:16 Sure. I'll I'll talk about this. Can I talk about this book, this novel I've been working on? Margaret 1:00:21 Yeah. Carrot 1:00:23 So I think... Margaret 1:00:25 But don't spoil it. Carrot 1:00:25 Okay, well, no spoilers. It's been really fun to think about, like everything we've been talking about, like if someone is on this long journey, like what would they have access to? What would still be around? How would they survive? So, that's kind of what I try to do. And, I kind of skip over the dark collapsing bits to get to the long journey part, because I think that's what's like fun and interesting. And, I think it gives me a sense of hope to try to be like, okay, what, what will things actually look like? This is one reason I love The Last of Us so much, too, is because you got to see how they like imagine like, oh, what would be left in a mall? Like a shut down mall. What stores would have been raided? What would still be left? Like, what materials would people have access to? And so, I think that's really fun. And, she does have a little dog. She has a chihuahua, that rides in her bike pannier, and nothing bad ever happens to the Chihuahua. Margaret 1:00:39 That's good. Carrot 1:00:49 Nothing bad ever happens to the dog. So, that's great. [The transcriber does not know if Carrot is being earnest or not and has not seen The Last of Us to discern whether this is a sarcastic statement or not] And, I think some people I think, maybe think thinking about this stuff is kind of dark, but I find it really comforting. Margaret 1:01:32 I agree. It's, yeah. Yeah, there's so many reasons. Carrot 1:01:39 I also, you know, I've read too, that in a survival situation, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what skills we have. What matters is like our ability to organize with other people, beca
Episode Summary Brooke and Margaret talk about every thing that went wrong this last month, and some good things. Sort of. They talk about more chemical spills, storing water and water filtration, tornadoes, more news on anti trans bills, inflation, super fun fungi, not fun at all guy Trump and his indictment, and how a drone (or satellite phone) could save your life and also make you a vampire. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript This Month in the Apocalypse: March, 2023 Brooke 00:16 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying ,your podcast for it feels like the end times. This is the March]April installment of our segment This Month in the Apocalypse. I'm Brooke Jackson and with me today is the infamous Margaret Killjoy. Margaret 00:30 I'm infamous now, what did I do? Brooke 00:33 Well known for being famous? Oh wait, that's not what that word means. Margaret 00:37 No. It means famous for bad. Brooke 00:41 Well, bad means good. [Laughing] Brooke 00:46 You're bad. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. Before we dive into today's episode, we'd like to share a little jingle from another pod on our network. Brooke 01:08 And we're back. Margaret. How are you feeling today? Margaret 01:11 I have a toothache and I'm grouchy. How are you? Brooke 01:15 I'm doing okay. I have intermittent sunshine. Margaret 01:19 Oh, does that mean it's almost not Pacific Northwest winter? Brooke 01:25 Well, it's intermittent with like super heavy rains and or hail. Margaret 01:29 Oh. The weather is much nicer where I'm at. Brooke 01:32 Yeah, it's Oregon doing its 'hold my beer' weather. Margaret 01:37 Well, do you wanna hear about some shit that happened this this month? Brooke 01:43 I definitely do. Margaret 01:44 A ton of shit happened this month. It's always funny to do these, because there's like all of these huge events. There's like one huge event a week and then it's like they're already out of our collective attention spans. So, on March, 26th, a pipe broke at the Trensio PLC chemical plant near the Delaware River. This is the the Philadelphia spill, right? It spilled ethyl acrylate, methyl methacrylate, and butyl acrylate into a creek called Otter Creek. Between eight and twelve thousand gallons of this stuff that is used...It's basically synthetic latex or it's like the precursors, I believe, to synthetic latex. Brooke 02:21 That's a lot of 'lates' spilled. Margaret 02:24 Yeah. And one of them is double meth. But, it actually has nothing to do with meth. I'm sorry. So, it ended up not being....well, it was a big deal. But, it was almost a big deal as in like the entire city of Philadelphia or rather the eastern half of Philadelphia and like millions of people were going to be like completely fucked and out of drinking water. And so we had this fun scare. Not me. I'm not in Philadelphia. People had this fun scare where the city of Philadelphia sent out like, "Oh shit, don't drink the water alert." And then later, they sent out a, "Wait, it's okay to drink it until midnight on Monday. You better fill up some jugs." And it was just like...but during the OH SHIT scare, right? Like there was just like, no fucking bottled water on any shelves immediately. Right? And in the end, the city's water was not impacted. And this isn't like a coincidence. It wasn't like, "Oh, oops, our bad, nothing was actually wrong." It was actually like credit where it's due, it was the coordination of the Department of Public Works and some other folks. And they like got their shit together. And they closed off the water treatment plant that was bringing in water from the river and all that shit. And do you want to know how to get butyl acrylate out of your water in case you have to? Brooke 02:38 Do I want to know? Margaret 03:44 You can't. Brooke 03:48 Okay, so I already know how. Margaret 03:49 I mean....Okay, I'm gonna say you can't and then I'm gonna go into more detail. Because water filtration is something I did a bunch of research about this week. And it's something that's like always been sort of on my radar as a weird prepper. Chemical contamination in water is one of the hardest things to filter out. The way it's handled on an industrial level, is some shit with some fucking little tiny goober plants that eat the chemicals or whatever. I don't have the name of it in front of me because I'm not good at my job. And it's not something that people are doing on a home scale. There are other ways that people can minimize the chemicals in their water. Overall, when you're trying to filter water, chemical contamination is the hardest thing to get rid of. It is much easier to get rid of heavy metals. It is much, much easier to get rid of protozoa, bacteria, viruses, all kinds of things, right? You're not boiling away your butyl acylate. And, you're not filtering it out directly. However, through the process of adsorption, which is absorption but backwards. 'Ad' instead of 'Ab.' Basically, the charcoal filter that are like in your like fucking Brita water filters and stuff like that, that is closest to the DIY version. They are not rated to do this. Do not drink this shit thinking it's safe because some girl on the internet said....Well actually I said it's not safe. But overall, removing chemicals from water of the various DIY filtration methods, passing things through an activated carbon filter is more effective, because more of the various particles stick to that than like most of the...it's kind of funny, because overall, like the kinds of filters that you usually want for like hardcore stuff are not home filters, they're like, like camping filters and stuff, but it's just like not actually the case with chemical stuff. But overall... Brooke 05:46 Okay, but what if I doubled Brita it? If I just if I just pour through the Brita filter twice? Is that? Is that enough? Margaret 05:52 Like, if I was going to die of thirst, and I had some water from the Delaware River, what I would do is I would filter it over and over again, maybe through different charcoal filters. And then I would hope that...and I would only do this because dying of thirst is more immediate of a problem than dying of like whatever poison that you're getting through this shit. But, there is like some advice that I want to throw out there about how to prepare for this kind of disaster. This is obviously not the first time some of these similar acylates. I can't remember which of these ones. I can't remember if it was butyl acrylate or ethyl acylate was one of the main things that spilled in Ohio. So, it's something that is like increasingly on people's threat analysis, right? The main way is to have water stored ahead of time. The main ways to find different sources of water. And so, one thing that's like worth knowing is that water does not really in and of itself go bad. Water, like, has stuff in it, that goes bad, right? But if water is like, correctly treated and sealed properly, it does not itself go bad. What I would recommend to people is if you're lazy and easy go get several gallons of bottled water and just keep it around. So, like worst case scenario of some drinking water during time of crisis. Because you can't boil advisory this shit, right? And then the other thing is, if you want to store your own water....oh, and then that water you get, you should replace every two years or so. Just because even though it doesn't go bad, the plastic that it's in tends to degrade. They tend to be clear bottles, and you keep it out of heat and sun and it'll last longer. Go ahead... Brooke 07:31 Is it not just refilling the containers? Because I have like a bunch of one gallon water jugs that I'll you know, put on the garden and then refill. But should I replace the jug itself too in those cases? It's not a long term jug. It's like the whatever store brand in a gallon jug. Margaret 07:52 Well, so it's funny, because a store brand gallon if you never open it and don't fill it yourself and it's sealed, is a reasonable thing to store for several years. Especially if you keep it out of the sun, and you keep it in a cool place, because then the plastic degrades less into the water. But if you're filling up your own jugs, especially if they're clear jugs, and especially if you've ever drank out of them, like directly, you just replace the water fairly often. And you like look for smells and growth and all that shit and keep it in a cool dark place. I don't keep store bought water, I keep five gallon jerry cans, and then I refill them. People say to do it every six months or a year. I do it closer to every year. But just having enough to have like emergency drinking water on hand during the time of a crisis where it takes time for water to come back online, or for you to set up a way to get it from elsewhere is something I recommend to people. That's what I got about the Philly spill. Unless you have other questions about water storage? Brooke 08:54 I feel like we could do a whole thing on water right now, but I'm not going to dump into it. I do have several kinds of different water storage. I have some of the little one gallons from the store and I have some, you know, five gallon heavy duties. And I have some big barrels of water and a whole set up. But, I'm curious if....You mentioned something at the very beginning about a like boil water advisory or something like that. And is that a common thing for other people? Because I feel like that's a common thing for me where I live, that we have those often enough that I've had to deal with it and learn how to do that on a regular basis. But, in other places, is that normal? I guess probably not. Margaret 09:32 No, it happens a lot in the US now. It either didn't used to, or it used to be more insulated from it. But, I've been in a bunch of different cities where they've had boil advisories for various lengths of times. If the boil advisories around like bacterial stuff, which I think is what most of them are, I am now speaking off the cuff. You can also filter it, but not with your Brita. You can filter it with a camping style filter if it's a protozoa are bacterial worry, as long as the micron size is like .2 or so, you're fine. If it's a viral worry, which is almost never the case in the continental United States, your micron size needs to be .02. Instead of .2. Maybe it's .01. It needs to be rated for viruses, which is rarer, and mostly camping filters don't do that. Brooke 10:25 Yeah, okay. That makes sense. Well, speaking of water stuff: air. Margaret 10:35 We need that. Brooke 10:36 Yeah, we do. Just all the elements. Weird weather. Have you heard about the tornadoes that that were happening over this last weekend? Margaret 10:45 Yeah, there's too many of them. Brooke 10:47 Yeah, It's kind of wild. So, as we're recording this, it's early April. We just got through the first weekend of April and there were at least 50 separate tornadoes that hit the American Midwest, South, and parts of the East Coast. They hit like a bunch of states, Arkansas, Missouri, Tennessee, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey. There were four separate tornadoes in New Jersey alone, which I don't think of New Jersey as being a tornado prone state. But, maybe that's just me not knowing things. But, they're also expected to have more tornadoes coming up by the time you hear this they hopefully have come and gone. But, they're supposed to affect as many as 16 states and all in the next couple of days. With the most serious risks two parts of Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa and Northwest Illinois. [Said like "Ili-noise"] I watched a video.... Margaret 11:42 What was the last state? Brooke 11:44 Illi-noise. Margaret 11:47 Never heard of that state. Brooke 11:48 Ilii-noooise. I refuse. Also, I'm sorry, I said Arkansas wrong. It's Ar-Kansas, Ar-Kansas. Tornadoes. So sorry for my mispronunciations there. [Laughing]. Margaret 12:05 Our-Kansas as compared to the Their-Kansas. Brooke 12:10 Yeah, I watched a fun video of there's someone who was trying to film a tornado with her phone. And the tornado came up and slammed into the building that she was in. And the phone kept filming, but it was just like, debris and shit flying around and just total chaos. Margaret 12:29 We might have different definitions of the word fun. Did she survive? Brooke 12:33 Yeah, she did. Margaret 12:34 Okay. Brooke 12:35 Okay, I think she got pretty well banged up and bloodied and stuff, broken glass and all that. And she posted to whatever social media, the video, and the comment of "If there's a tornado coming, don't try and film it. Get cover. I had to learn it the hard way." Margaret 12:53 Yeah. Brooke 12:53 Which makes you feel like it's not someone who's maybe in a tornado prone area, because I get the instinct like, "Oh, I'm gonna film that tornado." But not a great idea. Margaret 13:01 I mean, it's funny because like, after selfies became such a thing, like more national parks, we're seeing more...or like more hiking places were seeing more falling deaths as people climbed to try and get selfies on precarious rocks and all that stuff. And I'm not above all of that. Like, I can't tell you that I wouldn't try and film a tornado. I don't know. I can tell you it's not a good idea. But, that doesn't relate one-to-one to what I would do. Brooke 13:25 There was documentary that came out in like the 90s. And there was some really famous people who did it. It was all about tornadoes, and they chased them around and we're trying to catch data or something like that. Margaret 13:35 Twister? Brooke 13:36 Oh, yeah, that one. That one. It's a documentary, right? Margaret 13:39 Yeah, sure. Tornadoes aren't real. It's funny that people keep spreading this theory of tornadoes, but I've never seen a tornado. Have you seen a tornado. Brooke 13:52 I've seen some little dust spinneys. Margaret 13:55 Yeah, no. Tornadoes are fake. You heard it here first. Brooke 14:00 But wait, then Margaret. How did all the houses get destroyed and all of the things that are left in the wake of so called tornadoes? What did it. Margaret 14:09 Did your parents not raise you right? Like, do you not know what the Big Bad Wolf is? Brooke 14:14 So, all the damage is fake too? Margaret 14:15 No, it was done by the Big Bad Wolf. Brooke 14:19 Oh! Margaret 14:20 Who huffed and puffed and blew all the houses. Yeah, this is.... Brooke 14:24 I didn't think he was that big. I didn't think he was big enough to blow over apartment buildings and stuff. Margaret 14:29 Yeah, I mean there's no reason why her couldn't. There's like a bunch of them. They stand on each others' backs. Brooke 14:34 But, he couldn't blow down the brick house that the smart pig built so.... Margaret 14:38 No, correct. Brooke 14:39 So, I feel like he shouldn't be able to knock down all the concrete buildings and stuff that we see. Margaret 14:45 Well, actually okay like, to go back to actually believing in tornadoes, brick houses and concrete houses are like remarkably more resilient against.... Brooke 14:54 Did you just waffle on tornadoes? Was that just a giant tornado waffle? Margaret 14:58 Yeah. I did. I couldn't keep the bit up, because I got really excited about the fact that brick houses and concrete houses are remarkably more weatherproof than other houses, which it's one of the things that matters about understanding tornadoes, right, is that, like a lot of things, they impact poor people substantially more and most of the...it takes a much more powerful tornado. I've spent a while this week reading about tornado classifications. It takes a much more powerful tornado to tear down stick built house...What's the word I'm looking here for? Drywall, and two by fours and shit, then taking down like a trailer, right, that a lot of people don't have as much money live in. Those are easily destroyed by tornadoes. Drywall and studs, are a little bit harder. And then when you get into like brick houses and shit, you start getting houses that are like substantially more weather resistant. And, there's going to be remarkable class things about that. And like the most damage you hear, and the most deaths you hear about during tornadoes tend to be like trailer parks and shit. And it fucking sucks. It sucks that it impacts poor people more. Brooke 16:02 Yeah, for sure. One small happy story that came out of the tornadoes from last weekend anyway, is that there's more than half a dozen Ukrainian refugees who were living in Minneapolis, who when they heard about the tornado damage, volunteered to drive down to Mississippi and help out with the tornado relief efforts. Margaret 16:22 That's nice. That's better than... at the start of the story I was expecting it to be like, they left the war zone and then died in America from climate change weather. Brooke 16:35 Nope, they're here and they're refugees of the war, and they're going to help Americans. So that's pretty dope of them. Margaret 16:43 Well, speaking of good things...nope. I was just gonna talk about trans bills. There's really nothing good here. Brooke 16:50 Trans people. Trans people good. Margaret 16:52 Yeah, I can give you the trans report. I'm still here, still gay. The war on trans people continues. It will probably be about as successful as the war on drugs in that we had a war on drugs and now you can't buy drugs anymore. Or, it'll be like successful war on drugs and lots and lots of people have their lives ruined by it and nothing will be impacted. Well, in this case, to me, there's like literally nothing wrong, like trans people aren't doing anything wrong. Obviously, individual trans people are doing things wrong in the same way that individual everyone is doing something wrong. As of...this is a couple days old. So, already people are going to be like, like I wrote this two days ago and now by the time y'all hear it, who fucking knows. Kentucky's Congress just overrode their governor's veto of one of the worst anti trans bills in the country. Trans kids can't use the right bathrooms in school. Trans kids are forcibly detransitioned. Shit like that. North Dakota's governor...this is actually really interesting to me, these governor people vetoing things are interesting because they are across party lines. Off the top of my head, and again, I wrote this a couple days ago, I think Kentucky's governor's a Democrat and North Dakota is a Republican. And North Dakota's Republican, again, could be a different state, i could be messing all this up, just like knows trans people. So, he was just like, "I can't...What? I can't in good conscience sign this bill that like fucks over my friend." or whatever, you know. So, North Dakota governor vetoed a similar bill and as of...and it's gonna be overridden. And, in North Dakota, teachers can't use the kids correct pronouns unless the kid has a note from their parents that is cosigned by an administrator of the school. And government agencies can't require people, like who work for them, to correctly pronoun their co workers. And so it's just this like government oversight of everything bill that's just like "No, no one's allowed to be like." Like no workplace is able to be like "We're a trans accepting workplace," you know. And then, West Virginia passed a law prohibiting gender affirming care for trans youth. It does have more work arounds than many similar bills. Two doctors and parents all have to sign off before puberty blockers and all those things can be prescribed. So, it's less of a ban and more of like, lots of roadblocks. And it's interesting to me, because in many ways, this is like way better than an outright ban. However, it will be harder to...if we get this like wave of people defeating these trans bills, these ones are going to stick around longer. These ones that are not outright bans. They're much harder to challenge in court, is the theory that I learned from asking someone about it. Brooke 19:43 Yeah, so they put up roadblocks or speed bumps more than roadblocks. Margaret 19:48 Yeah. And a 2017 study says that West Virginia has the highest per capita rate of trans youth in the country. And another study says--and this is the dark thing behind all of this about like denying health care to children---another study says that West Virginia trans youth are three times more likely to attempt to kill themselves than their cisgender peers. So, God forbid we do the thing that all the Medical Association's agree ends that risk. Stopped Clock, the Libertarian Party, is standing up for trans people in some situations. Like some of the state libertarian parties, which tracks, but then again, you also see individual libertarians going on about like, "Well, I'm not paying with my taxpayer money for this degeneracy." And I'm like, "You're not a libertarian. Fuck you." And I'm like, I'm not even...like, whatever. It's just fucking conservatives calling themselves that. Brooke 20:41 I mean, I get why libertarians would come out against all the trans bills because small government. Margaret 20:48 Yeah, yeah, totally. Brooke 20:50 It's consistent with what they believe. But, allegedly, Republicans also believe in small government, but that never pans out that way. Margaret 21:00 That's the state of trans bills. It's bad. That's the state of it. And it's gonna get worse. Brooke 21:04 How much effort and money is being wasted into worrying about trans youth and trying to block that as opposed to real issues that we have going on? Margaret 21:05 I mean, okay, so like, from my point of view, and I think it's a wedge issue. It is specifically designed to...like, the sports thing is designed...it's not because people care about that teenage cis girls get to compete with only teenage cis girls. It is designed to make people angry at trans people. And then that is used as a wedge to then have trans people themselves be the wedge to pull off from LGBTQ, right, and get left with LGB. And you can already see that they like want...in the same way that like Roe v Wade. It's like they're going to come for...and they are already trying to come for birth control and all kinds of other shit too. You know? And they want...probably eventually, they'll get the sodomy laws back and premarital sex and whatever. You know? Handmaid's Tale shit. Brooke 22:08 Let's hope not. Margaret 22:09 And so, but there is this theory that they're gonna die on this hill, because the trans thing doesn't really win elections, because like, most people kind of don't give a shit what other people do with themselves. Like a lot of people give a shit, right, enough that there's all these bills being passed. But like, there's still a majority of United States-ian's who support access to trans health care, including for teenagers. And I won't say across party lines, because the majority of Republicans are opposed to it. But like, overall, you still have this, like people are kind of like "What the fuck is going on? Like this makes no sense?" Like, even the like it kind of icky people. So yeah, that's trans bills. Hooray. Brooke 23:03 Yeah. I just like, I don't want to jump off that topic, because it's so important and affecting so many people that I love, and, you know. This queer person, that is some of the other letters in that acronym is not gonna let go with a T. Trans people are staying here in this alliance. Margaret 23:24 And like, and I think it is worth understanding that like, it is already directly affecting large numbers of people. Entire families are leaving states with anti trans laws that are forcing the detransition of youth, and have to move to other states in order to access health care that keeps their kids alive. And so we're going to see an increasing amount of that. Whereas I would guess, a slightly higher percentage of adults, one aren't as...Trans adults aren't as directly affected yet. And also they might have more agency about staying and fighting. And I want to like just continue to say that I think it is absolutely worth offering full support to both people who choose to stay in dangerous situations to fight and people who choose to leave those situations, and full support to all people who are making either these decisions Brooke 24:13 And to help the people who want to leave the situation, but don't have whatever means or opportunities to do so. Well, I don't know if this is any less evil, as we talk a little bit about our old friend inflation. Margaret 24:34 That's where suddenly money's worth more, right? Brooke 24:38 Close. Really close, Margaret, but the other direction Margaret 24:42 We're worth more as more money. Brooke 24:43 We'll go back to our friend the banana example. Bananas.... Margaret 24:53 I know what inflation is. I'm just being a dick. Brooke 24:57 That's alright. We forgive you. Yeah. All right, inflation is where you can buy fewer bananas with your buck than you could before. Margaret 25:07 But, I want more bananas. Brooke 25:09 Yeah, they're gonna cost you more money. The same bananas are gonna cost you more money. Margaret 25:15 I guess bananas are still dirt cheap. I mean, how much could have banana cost? What? $5? [Margaret laughs] I made a meme. I said a meme. Brooke 25:24 Do you know that you're quoting a thing? Margaret 25:25 Yes. I'm smart. Brooke 25:28 I think she actually says $10 or $20. Margaret 25:30 I dunno, my pop cultural literacy is as literate as she is about finance. Soon enough, it's just gonna be accurate. People are gonna look back at that and be like, "Yeah, no, that's about how much of banana costs. What do you want?" Brooke 25:44 It's funny, because I think it is $10. And that was like 2003, so 20 years ago. So, it's a little less obscene now than it was when she said it. Margaret 25:55 Bananas are the cheapest fruit. This is why I like them so much. Brooke 25:59 I don't think I knew that. Well, your bananas are gonna cost more money or have been costing more money. I had to look it up for one of my other jobs the other day, so I just felt like doing an update on it. So, prices right now, compared to one year ago, are up about 5.5%. And I realize we haven't necessarily talked about what normal inflation looks like. Inflation is is a normal thing that happens in our society. There was a time in history when inflation was not normal, when things did not rapidly increase in price, or really have much of an increase. But that's a normal part of society. And normal inflation is closer to like 3% in a given year. So we're at close to double that with 5.5%. Margaret 26:44 Isn't that still down from what inflation was a year ago? Brooke 26:49 Yeah. So if we compare it from the last two years, so where prices are right now, compared to two years ago, they're up 13% when when we would have only seen maybe a 6% increase under normal inflation or less. So, still more than doubled. But it also depends on which things you look at. Like food is up more like 18% over the last couple of years. Margaret 27:12 Okay. But not important stuff? Brooke 27:16 No, not things that we need to survive, Margaret 27:18 Like TVs? Brooke 27:20 Yeah, of course. And, it's really interesting when I look at the charts of where the inflation is, because it's summer 2020, you know, like, right, as the impacts of all the pandemic shutdowns and supply shortages are starting to hit is when those prices start to do a clear difference in the way inflation hits, you know, goes for being that normal 3% rise to boom, much sharper. Margaret 27:45 What can people do about inflation? Get all their money out of the banks, put it in a cash envelope and put it under their mattress? Brooke 27:51 You know, that's actually going to be the opposite of what you want to do. Margaret 27:54 Yeah, I went that was on purpose again. Brooke 27:56 I know. Yeah, anything you can you can do with your money to have it earn at least some amount of interest, you know, if your bank offers a savings account that has a slightly higher rate of interest, and you could put some more of your money in there, or filter it through maybe a different type of checking account at your bank that perhaps offers a little bit of interest. Generally, interest rates never keep up with inflation. Like I just bought a CD that I think, is at four and a half percent or something like that over the next year? Which Margaret 28:33 What band is it? [Brooke laughs] What's a CD? Brooke 28:42 Yes, people don't know what either kinds of those are anymore. Certificate of Deposit. It's like a really short term investment that's with a guaranteed return on it. It tends to be a very small return. Generally doesn't keep up with inflation, but it's better than not getting any kind of interest. So, unlike a savings account you can't touch, or you can but then you get penalized, you don't get your interest on it. Margaret 29:11 Can I tell you my 'it sounds like a joke,'but is actually my financial strategy? Brooke 29:16 Oh, boy. Sure, you can. I can't promise I won't tease you about it Margaret 29:20 During times of high inflation, feast or famine. The thing that you want is not going to be cheaper tomorrow than today. Brooke 29:28 This is true. Margaret 29:28 So ,holding on to cash right now, I hold is less useful as an overall strategy than investment in the material goods that you expect to be using, whether it's the material goods that you use for your art to turn into things, whether it's like you know, shit you're trying to turn around and sell, or whether it's just tools or even fucking experience....like, kind of in that same way that like nothing's better later. And we're all gonna die one day and we can't control when, I feel like it's like extra true during a...like smoke if you got them, right? But ideally it's like....like I do consciously think about this where I'm like, "Well you know what, a table saw is going to stay useful to me many years from now if I take care of it, and the amount of money that that table saw will cost me is going to be 25% higher in three years," or whatever, you know. But that's only I mean....I don't know. Don't listen to me. I mean, I guess that's the point of the podcast is to listen to us. But don't. Brooke 30:42 You know what's interesting, though, is the economic theory, the economic textbook and stupid fucking Keynesian economics, would would agree with you there that your money is going to become less useful, so you should you should go ahead and spend it now. Margaret 30:53 Hell yeah. But I'm gonna write an economics book called "YOLO." Brooke 30:58 No, Keyne's already did. And should be ceremonially shot in the head. But yeah, I guess. Go ahead and go out and spend all your...No, no, no, I'm not even going to finish this. That's terrible financial advice. Margaret 31:14 I mean, like, hold on to like not die. But like, I don't know. Like, I don't have retirement fund. And I'm not saying like, no one should have a retirement fund. I'm saying I made some decisions in my life about how I was going to live that did not prioritize having a regular job. And I'm like, but I will have a table saw Right? Like, I don't know. Brooke 31:34 There is something to that though, to consider about, you know, purchases you might be making, you know, medium sized purchases, not super large purchases, like cars and whatnot. But yeah, if you need a table saw it might be a better idea to get it sooner rather than later. And it is a durable good. So it's not it's not as consumable. Margaret 31:56 Yeah, four Lamborghinis. Brooke 31:59 Probably not? I don't know what the resale value is on a Lamborghini, but that's probably not going to be worth it. Margaret 32:05 I know a Lamborghini is a car. That's all I got. Brooke 32:11 Okay, all right. Anyway, yeah, inflation continues to suck. Buy some shit, if you have some money to spare because prices are going up. Margaret 32:20 Okay, well in other fun...We really need to get better at having some intentionally positive things in this show, because for This Month in the Apocalypse, but in other fun news--actually, this one is like almost fine, right? Like there's a super fungus going around called Candida Auris. Brooke 32:40 Super fun. Can't spell super fungus without super fun. Margaret 32:44 I know. That's right. Or Gus. Don't trust anyone named Gus. Is Gus short for something? Gustav? I'm going to ask the next Gus I talk to. I know a Gus. So there's a new fungus. It's been around since 2009. Basically, it's just like there's this like kind of like constant war on...like the same way that like antibiotics are like an arms race where we like we get the new upgraded penicillin and then the biotics, the bacteria, is like, "Whatever, fuck you. I'm like penicillin resistant." So we're like, "Well, now we've got [mutters nonsense word]," and then you know, we're like, "Well, we're [nonsense word] resistant." And that happens in the fungal world as well. Candida Auiris. It was first noticed in 2009. It came to the US in 2016. I'm mostly saying this to say this is not worth freaking out about. This is a thing that like some news articles are telling us about--and I don't think it's bad for news articles to tell us about, right? But, it is not worth freaking out about unless you're in very specific situations, in which case it is worth paying attention to, and I don't mean to disparage, it is mostly currently in hospital settings. It is mostly affecting immunocompromised people who are in hospital settings. If you get it, it's sketchy, right? It has a very high mortality rate. But, it's not airborne. It is surfaces and direct contact. Most people...when I say 'get it,' I mean like get it and it creates its effect, its disease thing, and basically people start worrying about because it was antimicrobial resistant. And that's why people started freaking out about it because it was resistant to like, off the top of my head, I want to say, two of the three main things that were treating other forms of Candida...fungal problems, yeast problems. But, already since this has become a problem, two new anti fungal drugs that are effective on it have been passed by the FDA. So, I guess I'm saying this one to be like, this is a thing that people are like, most than use articles about it are like on your like local news station, you know, like the ones that want to tell you about smiling dogs and about how we're all going to die. Again, it's still worth understanding and keeping an eye on. But it's not worth freaking out about right now. What do you got? What's next? Brooke 35:21 It is kind of positive news, because it is a super fungus, but then they found some things that actually do work on it. Okay, well, I want to I want to insert another short happy thing, since we're talking about happy things. That I read. And this is universal. Scientists discovered, I think just the last couple of weeks, that the rings around the planet Saturn actually help to warm the atmosphere of the planet. Yeah. Just a happy scientific discovery. Margaret 35:57 So, in order to solve climate change... Brooke 36:01 Oh, boy. Margaret 36:02 We need to blow up the moon. It's gotta be worth just a couple of degrees. Brooke 36:10 You know, I think that's gonna fuck up some other things that we don't want to do. Margaret 36:15 I didn't read a whole novel called "Seven Eve's," by Neil Stevenson about what would happen if the moon blew up. Brooke 36:20 Yeah, also as an indigenous person, and the moon is considered our grandmother, I have some feelings about blowing up my grandmother. Margaret 36:28 Everyone dies. Brooke 36:30 I'm gonna. I'm gonna pass. Margaret 36:31 All the people die. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, everyone. I have a tooth ache. I'm sorry. Brooke 36:39 How about some other great news that will make you really happy? Okay, about our former president, Ruffled Dumpagins? Margaret 36:45 We put him on the moon and then we blow it up. Brooke 36:48 Hey, okay, that...I might consent to blowing up my grandmother in that regards. Margaret 36:54 All right, all right. Maybe just put him on the moon, and just let them see what happens. And then your grandmother could take care of them. We don't have to get rid of the grandmother at all. Brooke 37:02 There we go. That's an even better plan. My grandma will definitely take care of Donald Trump. Margaret 37:07 Okay. All right. Brooke 37:09 So, as we're recording this, the former president was indicted just last week by a New York grand jury on more than 30 counts of stuff. And we don't know exactly what the various counts are. That's being kept secret. But, we know that it surrounds the hush money payment that was made to the former porn star--or maybe she's still a current porn star, I don't know which, but good on her way either way--Stormy Daniels, which, in case people don't realize this, paying the hush money isn't actually illegal. It's the way it was paid that was bad. Because it was filtered through the campaign. And yeah, the Dumpikin's former attorney, Cohen, I think was the one, has already been found guilty on this and is serving jail time over it. So, definitely illegal shit happen. What they're trying to argue now is whether Trump himself knew about it, and how involved he was in the illegal activity. So by the time you're listening to this, Grumpikins has already been arraigned, and he's probably gone back to Florida, and he's probably back to campaigning. So you'll have more news on this than we do. But it's that happy thing that I want to mention. An unhappy part of it is that in the three days following the announcement from the grand jury that he was going to be indicted is the disgraced former President raise $7 million in campaign funds for his current presidential bid. Brooke 38:09 You say million or billion? Brooke 38:43 Million. In three days. So, yeah, not a bad return on $130,000. But the payments... Margaret 38:54 Okay, so I have a new way that we can make money. Nope, sorry. Go. Ahead. Brooke 38:57 Yeah, there we go. I mean, and I'm okay if I get to hang up some porn stars too. That'll make me happy. Margaret 39:03 We can become right wing grifters. Brooke 39:05 No, Can we be left wing grifters? Margaret 39:10 Okay, let's find out. Everyone who's listening, send us $10. And then you become an official Live Like the World is Dying host, who can then get other people to send you $10, of which you will turn around and send us $5. But, don't worry, because the people under you will be earning... Brooke 39:28 No, no, no, no. You're describing something that's shaped roughly like a pyramid, which I'm pretty sure is... Margaret 39:34 It's devil worship. Triangle is devil worship. Margaret 39:34 No, it's a triangle. It's the strongest shape in nature. Margaret 39:41 It's the A-frame. It's the a-frame financial model. Brooke 39:48 The former president is also facing other legal challenges, which haven't brought forth charges yet but some of them certainly will. He's under investigation for things including the January, 6th attack on the US capital. Federal election tampering in Georgia, mishandling of classified documents, a civil lawsuit for fraud in New York against the Trump Organization, and a defamation lawsuit, amongst other things. Margaret 40:10 What a good guy. Brooke 40:11 Yeah, super awesome. Margaret 40:14 I do love all the like...You know, it's like the like, the prison abolitionists, anarchists who are too good for electoral politics like, myself and many other people, but it's like, I feel like there's just like a little bit of like, "Alright, well, we can still take some fuck that guy." Like, fuck that guy. I don't care. Yeah. You want to hear some some list of stuff? Brooke 40:38 What else is going on out there, Margaret? Margaret 40:40 Well, there's a diesel spill in West Virginia from a derailed train. I spent a while trying to look up how you filter diesel out of water. But, unfortunately, most of the information is about how to filter diesel out of water...how to how to filter water out of diesel cause people want the diesel. Brooke 40:58 As long as you capture the water, that might not be the worst. Margaret 41:01 Well, it's like, because the water that they're pulling out might some diesel and they don't care. They're getting rid of that water. They're probably throwing it in the fucking creek or on the ground. But like, because you don't want to put watery gas or diesel into your engines order, but the way that people do it is that water is denser than diesel so it sinks to the bottom of the container. So I guess if you're a life or death....I'm not even going to make that advisory. Like don't drink diesel water. Artificial sweetener erythritol, one of those--I think it's one of the alcohol sugars--seems to be linked to heart problems. Doubles your chance of bad shit. It's in some vegan ice cream. So beware. Brooke 41:35 Oh, good to know. Hey, before we go too far from the train derailment. Margaret 41:38 Oh, you wanna do the train thing. Brooke 41:40 Well, just there was another train derailment that made me think of in Montana just over this last weekend. And they were carrying a lot of... Margaret 41:48 Ice cream? Brooke 41:49 Coors Light, and another brand of beer that's similar to that. Margaret 41:57 That's just funny. There's no. Okay. Hell yeah. Brooke 41:59 So, you don't need to filter the beer out of the water. You can just go ahead just drink it. Margaret 42:04 Yeah, it's really good for you. It hydrates you more effectively than water. Brooke 42:08 Its water beer in the first place. So. Margaret 42:11 Okay, that's fair. Speaking of Oregon, we weren't, but a guy who was trapped in the snow, managed to get an SOS out on this phone. This is like a survival tip. This is not a survival tip that applies to almost anyone. He attached his phone to his drone, and flew his drone up until it got enough service and the message sent and he was saved. And that rules. Brooke 42:35 That's fuckin rad. Margaret 42:37 That said, in terms of getting out emergency signals, one way--satellite communicators are a more effective method and cheaper than drones. Not a lot cheaper than drones. I'll be real. There in the like, $300-$400 range, however, and I bet more and more phones will do this. The newer iPhones. I don't have one. But, the newer iPhones have built in satellite communication SOS systems. Where the satellite communicator is like more like what like people hiking in the backwoods and stuff have and it like lets you like text. It's a little bit slow. But like, no matter if you can see the sky, you can get a message out with satellite communicators. Brooke 43:15 You have one of those, don't you, Margaret? Margaret 43:16 I do. I spend some time in the backwoods. And so it's nice to have, Brooke 43:24 Well I have a drone. So, I'm just gonna take my drone and just follow that guy's success. It's like a $300. Drone. It's not a special drone. Margaret 43:33 Yeah, you gotta keep that in your car at all times. You will literally die if you don't have that in your car at all times. Brooke 43:42 Will I not die If I haven't my car? Will it protect me in other situations? Margaret 43:45 I think we're getting off topic. Margaret 43:45 In this specific situation that this man was in, he's immortal now. Because the the signal was interrupted by some vampires. And they came over. He's not allowed to see the sun anymore, which is like a heavy price to pay. Right? And he consumes blood and there's like a lot of like, ennui attached to that. He's a vampire now. Margaret 44:06 So, here's a list of worst air quality in the United States listed from 1 to 10: Bakersfield, California. Congratulations. You've the worst air quality in the United States. Los Angeles, Chicago, Northwest Indiana and the industrial areas like Gary, Indianapolis, Houston, St. Louis, a bunch of rural Pennsylvania managed to like really come in hard for the rural areas. I'm glad to see that rural representation. These are mostly localized to a few hotspots, because you're like in the mountains and there's a factory there and they don't care about you because you're poor. You'll notice that a lot of these places are poor. Atlanta and Birmingham, Alabama. I'm sorry. Finland is joining NATO, so Putin's weird war is having the opposite of the desired effect, and I don't really have an opinion about that, but it's like worth noting. Most of the current like prepper news you can go out and read is gonna be like, "Today, World War III is about to happen tomorrow." And it's like the same person will say this like over and over and over again. And they always have like some reason, as we like inch closer, and they're not even usually like wrong about their reasons. Like the China, US. and Russia are like playing a fucking crazy game right now, you know? And there's like nuclear capable planes from the US like flying near that little weird part of Russia that isn't attached to Russia that's like, south of the...the like Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, you know, there's a tiny piece of Russia under there. And then like, US planes are like, playing a like 'not touching, can't get mad,' game about nucular war. And that's like, not great. But, I'm not like those...I know, I'm now saying the thing that I just said don't worry about, but like, it's...I don't know. I don't feel like we're any more likely to have nuclear war tomorrow than we were yesterday. Personally. Brooke 45:58 We're all going to die anyway. Margaret 46:00 Yeah, except for that guy who sent his drone up to talk to the vampires. Brooke 46:06 Vampire man. Margaret 46:07 Metformin taken during COVID is looking like it's reducing long COVID cases. At least according to some studies. I'm not giving you medical advice, but it's like promising, right? What's promising is that there's more and more information about how people are handling long COVID, which is also really promising because there's a lot of long viral problems like Lyme and things like that, that have been ignored and the people who suffer from them have been mistreated by the medical establishment for decades. And I am optimistic that the research into long COVID--Because long COVID can't be ignored because of the scale at which it's happening--will help people who suffer from these other viral infections. That is my hope. The far Right government in Italy has stopped registering children born to same sex couples. I think it's basically like same sex couples were going to other countries in order to have kids via surrogates. And then now they're like not able to come back to Italy. I don't have the absolute details about...Italy's being fucked up and homophobic. Brooke 47:13 They can't like get a birth certificate? Margaret 47:15 It's something like that, Brooke 47:17 Wow. Margaret 47:17 The the news article was clearly translated and not incredibly well. That was the best I could figure. China is on track to destroy American exceptionalism and become the number one cause of climate change. So, we're gonna have to step up our game everyone. Brooke 47:32 No. Margaret 47:35 On--well, we are stepping up our game because--on March 13th, Biden approved...this could have been a whole separate topic. But, Biden approved a project called Willow and I am offended because "Willow" is an amazing movie and an amazing tree and not a oil development on federal land in Alaska that's the size of fucking Indiana. Brooke 47:54 Yeah, I heard about that. Margaret 47:55 It is key habitat for polar bears and caribou. It fucking sucks. It is like, absolutely a spit in the face to any pretense that one of the most powerful nations on the planet would possibly stick to what it claims about the--not deindustrialization--but de fossil fueling and or whatever... Brooke 48:15 Yeah. Gross. Margaret 48:17 Positive environmental news that is no longer in positive environmental news is electric cars were getting a $7,500 subsidy from the federal government. Except it's a big confusing mess. And no one can tell...like not even the car companies know whether you have to lease, if you can buy, which ones you can buy. And it all has to do with this like pissing match thing where they want all of the...the subsidy cars have to have a certain percentage or maybe it's all of it, I'm not sure, of the components made within the United States. But, at the moment, all of that is a nightmare mess. So people don't know which electric car they can get $7,500 subsidy on. Brooke 48:53 But, there is a $4,000 federal subsidy that is more straightforward and not all fucked up and confusing. Margaret 49:03 That's good to know. Like Virginia recently passed a gun law that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not opposed to all gun laws, I guess, except in the abstract way or I don't like law as a system, but they passed a thing that's just like subsidies for people to get gun safes. It's not a requirement. It's not a like safe gun lock up requirement, although I think that that should exist, but maybe not in a law way but in a cultural norm way. But yeah, like if you want people to change an economic system, and we do. We need a different economic system, or a different...Well, we did a lot of different things to be changed, but whatever. I don't know. Okay, so Finally, my small thing is that the Inter governmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC released a new report. We're fucked. I mean, we're almost certainly going to overshoot the Paris Agreement, of capping climate change at 1.5. C [degrees Celsius change] And 1.5. C is where you start getting runaway feedback loops, at least according to...I mean, everyone's given different numbers. Some people, I've heard 2 C [degrees Celsius] or whatever, but like, yeah. It's bad and things need to change more dramatically than I believe the current system is capable of changing things. So as much as I'm like, "Oh, money for electric guitar," Guitars? Electric guitars for everyone. Because then if you're all vampires, you can like [makes guitar note noises] like, the Crow. But I think that fundamentally and dramatically shifting the way that our governmental and economic systems work is a more likely way to stop climate change than convincing our current governmental system to effectively address it. Brooke 50:49 Right there with you. I bet our friends over It Could Happen Here will probably read that report and talk about it in depth. I know they did last year when that report came out. And that was pretty good info they distilled down there and so hopefully they'll do that again for us. Margaret 51:04 They're not our friends. We hate them. We're starting beef with....No. They're all so nice. They're also, they want to...I also work for them. But yeah, okay. Margaret 51:16 They play games with us. We like them. Margaret 51:22 Yeah. What else? We're coming up on an hour. We got anything else? Brooke 51:27 Oh, that was my list. Margaret 51:30 Okay. Well, I think we can change things fundamentally. And I also think we can build the systems by which to mitigate the worst effects of the changes that are going to happen. And I think we can do that by building together in community minded preparedness ways. Brooke, do you want to start a podcast with me about how to do individual and community preparedness? We can make it be weekly. Give it some name, like Don't Die Weekly or.... Brooke 52:07 I feel like Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness already produces something like that. And we might be on it right now. Margaret 52:17 Whoa. Brooke 52:18 I know. You can listen to it starting weekly, starting right now. Margaret 52:24 Whoa. Yeah, Brooke 52:26 It's actually called Live Like the World is Dying and Margaret, you do most of it. Though, I think the toothache is making you forget. Margaret 52:34 The Vampire Cast. Brooke 52:37 Come to Oregon. Become a vampire. Or not. Margaret 52:39 Yeah, it's true. Oregon's could still hang. I mean, my toothache is fucking me up. I'm not even on drugs for it yet. I'm just excited to finish so I can take ibuprofen. Brooke 52:50 Well, how can we finish? Brooke 52:57 Thanks so much for listening to the latest installment of This Month in the Apocalypse. We come to you as members of the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness publishing collective. We produce three, soon to be four other podcasts, create zines and publish books. You can check out that great stuff on our website, Tangledwilderness.org. We're also on some social media platforms like Instagram and Twitter. Margaret 53:20 And Vampire Freaks. Brooke 53:23 We are able to do these rad things because of our Patreon supporters. Margaret 53:27 Myspace. Brooke 53:34 You make this Friendster. Do we have Friendster? Margaret 53:38 We only add you on Friendster if you support us on Patreon, I'm sorry, them's the rules. Brooke 53:44 Our patrons make this work possible. And if you're interested in supporting our work, please check us out on patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Those who support us that $20 a month level get a special shout out at the end of every podcast. Margaret 53:56 They're in our top eight. Brooke 53:58 Top eight? Margaret 54:01 Were you not a MySpace kid? Brooke 54:03 I was but I don't...Oh! Yeah! The little the board thing with the squares. Yes. Okay, I forgot we called it that. Margaret 54:09 Your top eight friends. Brooke 54:11 Yep. All right. We want to say thanks to Hoss the dog, Miciahah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Cat J, Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, Theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, paprouna, Aly, Paige, Janice, Oxalis. And yes, thank you so much. Margaret 54:32 United States, Canada, Mexico, Panama, Haiti, Jamaica, Peru, Republic Dominican, Cuba, Caribbean, Alabama, Alaska. El Salvador too, Brooke 54:39 Colorado, Connecticut. Margaret 54:44 We actually like you all individually. I'm sorry that we made it...it's a toothache. Bye, everyone. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co
Vengeance is hers! Revenge Month is upon us and the main payback-getters in April will be women. We start with Coralie Fargeat's bloody, gross, violent and awesome Revenge. Her movie is fantastic, but is most of it a fantasy? We got into that possibility and also dug into the symbiosis of #metoo happening around the same time this film was made. Matilda Lutz---who, like her director, didn't become as big a name as she should have---is sexy playing the party girl, then galvanizing as the angry phoenix rising from the ashes. So go on the hunt for a podcast about a justifiably homicidal woman who was badly wronged in our 503rd chat on Have You Ever Seen. Well, Actually: Matilda Lutz was in Final Cut, not One Cut Of The Dead (which is the title of the Japanese film that inspired Final Cut). Also, in addition to Revenge & Mandy, the other picture on Shudder's main page is of a TV show called Channel Zero and the character is known as the "Tooth Child". We are sponsored by Sparkplug Coffee. They will dole out a one-time 20% discount to anyone who uses our "hyes" promo code, Go to "sparkplug.coffee/hyes" to get some business done with them. We've posted most of our 2023 episodes on YouTube. This show won't have any bonus footage of us on camera, but generally our Monday podcasts do. Go to @hyesellis to see our growing library of YouTube content. To contact us, tweet (@moviefiend51 and @bevellisellis) or email (haveyoueverseenpodcast@gmail.com). Ryan talks about sports movies too. You can find all those gabs on "Scoring At The Movies".
Mo chats with Bram Stoker Award Nominated Author Robert Ottone on Channel Zero's First Season - Candle Cove, horror at it's finest, about generational trauma and healing from within.
Episode Summary Janet and Margaret talk about sustainable foraging, herbalism, wild tending, constructive ethics on why you might choose not to wildcraft, ways to impact your food intake in small but meaningful ways, unlearning extractive tendencies when harvesting food and medicine, and upholding indigenous wisdom around wild tending. Guest Info Janet (she/her) is an herbalist and teacher at the Terra Sylva School of Botanical Medicine. Janet can be found on wordpress at Radical Vitalism The school can be found on Instagram @terrasylvaschool. Janet does a podcast called The Book on Fire. Janet recommends reading The Honorable Harvest by Robin Wall Kimmerer. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Janet on Sustainable Foraging Margaret 00:14 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Margaret Killjoy. And this week we're going to be talking about herbalism and foraging and sustainable foraging of herbalism, and forage....[Trails off] That's what we're gonna be talking about with with Janet Kent, who you all have heard from before on another episode from a long time ago, about herbalism. And I think you'll all get a lot out of this episode. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:12 And we're back. Okay, so Janet, if you could introduce yourself with your name, which I guess I already said, and your pronouns and kind of what you do for a living as, which would help people understand why they should listen to you about this topic. Janet 01:44 I am Janet Kent, my pronouns are she/her. I run a school of botanical medicine that's located about an hour outside of Asheville, in southern Appalachia, and in so called Western North Carolina. And I'm also a clinical herbalist. And I also live in hardwood co [conifer] forest. And so I'm surrounded by wild plants. And specifically, like this region of southern Appalachia has a long history of settler wild crafting as a kind of hustle. And there were a lot of...when most pharmaceuticals came out of plants back in the day, this was a huge nexus of harvesting and distributing, and people extracted a lot of plants from the wild as a means of survival and sold them to the pharmaceutical companies. So, that is partially because this is a really ecologically rich place. But, I say all that just to say that I'm surrounded by plants that have medicinal value, even in like the larger market outside of the home forager or home apothecary. So, it's something that like, we have to really think about here and are forced to. Even though we're surrounded by the medicine, the ethics of that are something that I think about pretty regularly. So, I might be better situated than some to consider that. Yeah, Margaret 03:13 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that's why I wanted to have you on to talk today, right? Because I feel like this is this question that is coming up more and more as foraging becomes a little bit more mainstream. Or? Well, I guess, actually, to start with, we were talking earlier, and you talked about how there's sort of a foraging craze that's coming from the pandemic, I was wondering if you could kind of talk about that, like what's happening right now in foraging? 03:38 Yeah, I mean, while I do think there was a much more of a burst during the pandemic, when people were getting outside more. Public spaces, and parks became more visited once they were open again. And you saw just a lot more people out. I don't know, like how much time you spend in public spaces. But, there was a huge increase in people national parks, and national forests, State Forest, all of those kinds of places. And even just in city parks and such. And I think that there has been a lot of social media content that's being created around foraging. And it is like a way that people can get excited about gathering their own food. It can be a really nice, like gateway to like relationships with plants, because people start to learn to identify plants and learn what is food. And I definitely think that there's no small part of this that is also connected to people wanting to spend less money on food. I mean, we have applicants for school sometimes even say, you know, like, I want to learn more about plants that are useful for food and for medicine, because I need to spend less money. So there's like an economic incentive here, as well. And I should probably spend some time on that in a bit. But, also I would just say that over the last...I don't know, it's probably been more than a decade, there has just been a surge in interest in wild plants, including for food and for medicine. Margaret 05:10 Yeah. And that's either really good or really bad depending on who you ask, Is that what's Is that what's happening right now? Janet 05:19 Yeah, I would say that there can be pretty binary of viewpoints on this. And it's interesting, I mean, something that you probably see with a lot of people that you interview or with different communities that you might be in as there is a rise in awareness of just the colonial project that we're all part of still. And so that this is still occupied territory. There are indigenous people here whose land settlers are occupying. There is a certain level of guilt that can come with that awareness...[interrupted] Margaret 05:56 Right? Janet 05:56 [Continues] If you are someone who is not indigenous to turtle islands, and the way that I see that play out sometimes, not always, is with people sometimes seeing kind of stark black and white ideas around what is good and what is not good, and relationship. And we see people who hear like, "We shouldn't wildcraft," or they memorize like this all wildcrafting, which is the word that herbalist and people who are into plant medicine will use to describe harvesting herbs for medicine specifically. I don't actually hear 'wildcrafting' used to refer to food. Yeah, but so wildcrafting can be seen as strictly extractive and people just taking from the wild, because as I mentioned in the introduction, there is a long history of plants being taken en mass from the forests, to serve the pharmaceutical industry. And even now, there are certain plants that are threatened and endangered because they are used, even in European markets. Margaret 07:03 Like what? Janet 07:05 Black cohosh, specifically, is an herb that is seen as being helpful for some menopausal states. And it's used in...So in Europe, it's more license legal to be a doctor who uses plant medicine. And so you can prescribe herbs there. It's more regulated as well, but definitely tons of black cohosh are sent abroad every year. And from what...I met someone who works, is sort of like from a root digging family, like a traditional Appalachian root digging family, but she said she'd been in warehouses where there was just like piles of rotting roots of black cohosh, you know, cause people... Margaret 07:48 Oh, God. Janet 07:48 Yeah, the work of, as in is usually the case, like the piece workers, the people who are gathering are paid shit. And then the stuff is piled up. It's not stored very well. Some fraction of it will make it into medicine. And so there is very much a problem with extraction en masse of plants, especially when the root is what's being harvested, because that kills the plant. Right? Margaret 08:12 Yeah. Ginseng is like one that I feel like I hear about too. Janet 08:16 Absolutely. Ginseng would be a great example. And interestingly, I mean, you may even live in ginseng country. I do, for sure. But, that's something that's, you know, has been historically, as settlers came into these mountains, have shipped abroad, because by the time the Revolutionary War happened here, already, there was a dearth of ginseng in China because so much had been wild harvested, and they hadn't really put in cultivation yet. And so, as soon as the global market, people within the global market figured out that there was a similar ginseng here, they started shipping it abroad, and actually ginseng sales helped pay for the Revolutionary War. Margaret 09:02 Oh, god. Uh huh. Janet 09:03 Which is just so wild. Yes. So, there is very much history of extraction of plants. Margaret 09:10 Yeah. For the extractive project that is the Revolutionary War Janet 09:14 Yes, absolutely, a huge scale. So, when we are thinking about our own personal use or serving our communities or, you know, a lot of people will try to make herbal products as a side hustle, then we do need to confront our personal relationship with that legacy. That's obviously really important. However, the amount of time and energy people spent in policing other people's foraging and wildcrafting is a lot, as you may imagine. Margaret 09:42 Yeah, social media is particularly good at getting us to level our weapons at each other. Yeah. Janet 09:48 Right. So, we see a lot of that, and I feel like the the climate has not been very nuanced for this conversation, because what's true, and this is probably a part of what you're wanting to get out with this episode is that there's a really big difference between digging up a 15 year old root of a plant in the forest that took that long to get that big and taking the whole root and killing it, than there is actually harvesting weeds or harvesting invasive plants or plants that are here in abundance. And actually, you can harvest some kinds of plants in a way that is supportive to the plant community that they live in, because they're opportunistic or taking too much space. And so, I think when we have a black and white rubric around this, and much like all wildcrafting is extractive, we're also forgetting that there is a way for humans to be in relationship with plant communities in a way that fosters diversity and richness in the ecology. And can be a form of wild tending. And that is how Turtle Island was maintained by all of the indigenous folks who are living in so many different plant communities around the continent before Europeans showed up and disrupted that. Margaret 11:04 Okay, so what are some of the...I like, examples. It makes it really more concrete in my head. Like, what are some of the examples of plants that you're helping that plant community by foraging or or by? Yeah. Janet 11:17 Okay. Yeah, that's, that's a good question. And there's, I'll share with you a book, there's a whole book on invasive plant medicines. And so I'm going to say 'invasive' here, I know that that's a controversial word to some people. But, what I mean is plants that came after 1492, and are opportunistic and can take over spaces, and take up space. So, that's what I mean when I'm saying that, and we can say 'non native' or 'invasive' or just 'opportunistic,' but I'm gonna say 'weedy' and 'abundant' plants here. Plantain would be a weedy and abundant plant, and mugwort can be quite opportunistic, and take over in some places. Mimosa tree, the really beautiful pink firecracker looking tree that grows in the southeast pretty abundantly is pretty opportunistic. It can take over spaces for sure, you know, and sometimes native plants are also pretty weedy as well. Yarrow is a plant that comes from Europe, that there are some native varieties too, but they tend to not be as opportunistic. A lot of garden plants that have escaped, like catnip or horehound you might find in other places, sometimes lemon balm goes feral, in some places, as well. So, those would be some examples. But, a lot of trees that you see...[corrects self ] well, it's hard to say...Trees that were planted for landscaping, and then kind of move out like, Tree of Heaven is an example. There's a lot of different trees that got brought in at various points that have spread out and can really out compete other trees. Yeah. Margaret 12:57 This is really interesting to me for a lot of reasons...I mean, I'm kind of notoriously bad for someone who like often lives off grid or like, you know, I live mostly alone on a bunch of acres in a mountain or whatever in Appalachia. And I'm like, kind of notoriously bad at actually knowing the plants around me and how to engage with them besides being like, I swear, one year, I'm gonna be here in the fall and eat the acorns. You know, has been my plan for however many years. I've done every step of acorn harvesting at various points and never actually finished it and eaten them. But, so it's just, it's kind of interesting to me because as I walk around, you know, the place that I live, I become more and more familiar with some of these plants and it's interesting to think about them in different ways. And then also think about, like, whether or not I have a desire or like, a role in sort of shaping what plants grow around me. And like, I don't even know the answer that yet. Like, I mean, what I sort of in my head, I'm like, I believe both the pines and the Oaks near me are fairly, you know, native to this area, or whatever. But, I'm like, but I like the Oaks more. And so I'm like, Is it bad to start, like, kind of cutting back the pines and like trying to propagate more of the Oaks? Like, maybe the tree level is a higher level of thinking about because they take a lot longer, but is that something that like, people should be doing in the kinds of....should be is a weird question....but [people] could think about doing in the places that they forage or, like thinking about what the current plant environment community is and what it could be shifted towards? Or is that like, do you stay out of it? This is not a question. Sorry. Janet 14:39 Yeah, no, I, I think I can pick the through line in there, which is that: what would a good relationship look like when foraging? And to me, you know, I wasn't taught this way at all. I definitely came up in herbalism when this was not part of our conversation. But, I think in general, wild tending is the way to go where you actually have a perennial relationship with the plants that you live around or the plants that you visit, or the places that you'd like to harvest so that you can pay attention to when they're healthy and when they need support. See which plants are taking up some more space, you know, I mean, depending on what pines you're around, you know, those would have at one time been controlled partially through fire management practices, because they burn more than oaks. So, you know, that's like...I mean, not that we're trying to like, go back to some pristine era, because that's not possible. There's just sort of moving forward from where we're at. But, but it is true that in a lot of places where there were mixed forest in that way, there would be periodic fire for....support hunting, which would have taken out the pine. I mean, I think that personally, preferential treatment of different plant communities and landscapes feels pretty intuitive. And also, if you look back through history, but also if you just look at different cultures that are living in a sort of a tending/stewardship relationship with the plants around them, there is usually preferential management practice, which that's kind of like a boring way to say it, but yes, like favoring the plants you would like to see do better and favoring plants often that are useful to humans, and wildlife. You know, before the American Chestnuts went through, they're blight, they're not extinct, there are still a few left, but before the chestnut blight took out such a large amount of the chestnut trees on the eastern coast that was the dominant tree. And yes, they were taller and larger than most of the trees in the forest, but there was a level of preference for those because they made tons of food every year. And so humans and birds and other animals that like chestnuts, propagated the chestnuts by moving them around, even a squirrel burying a bunch of chestnuts is going to make more chestnuts come up, you know? So I think that that is a pretty natural way to relate to the plants around you, which is to favor some over others, you know. And when you start to pay attention to like, who's just kind of taken over, which can be plants that are actually from here too. And you want....ecosystem's tend to benefit from number of connections and number of members. And so you want to see richness in both of those numbers. You want to see more members and you want to see more connections. So, when you have any one member dominating, you're having less of both. And I think if we can think of tending towards, you know, the word diversity is almost destroyed at this point for usefulness, however, I could say that ecologically, what I mean is like, yes, strengthen members and connections. Margaret 17:57 Okay. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. I don't know, I've been really enjoying just like, you know, I have a dog now. So, I have to walk around a lot. And actually, like, pay more attention, because he's always like finding all of the things and making me pay attention to it. I don't know where I'm going with that. There's cactus where I live. And it confuses the hell out of me. Yeah, I live in West Virginia. Janet 18:21 Are they prickly pears? Margaret 18:24 I don't know. They're small. They're like low to the ground. They're like big, round, green lobes kind of like hanging out on the ground. There's not a lot of them. But, it confuses the hell out of me. I have no idea if they're native to this area or not. I don't understand. I don't know why I'm telling you that. Now everyone knows I have cactus. Janet 18:51 Dogs are wonderful for getting us out of the house and out into the world, you know, and then you start to pay attention to who else is around, you know, the dog leads you to the others. Right? Margaret 19:00 Yeah, totally. It's how I know about all the turtles on the property is my dog finds them in and hangs out with them and just sort of stares at them. And then I watch them. Janet 19:07 Are they box turtles? Margaret 19:08 Yeah, there's some kind of. Yeah, I think they're box turtles. They're not, uh, they're not doing so well. I looked them up. There's not a lot of them. But, I live somewhere where there's not a lot of roads. So they don't die as much. Janet 19:22 Right. I love box turtles. I actually wanted to bring up a different similar creature when I was thinking about this topic earlier, which is that I think that, while I can be like, it's all you know, 'we need to turn relationships, we need to be stewarding land,' all of these things, it is worth noting that generally, wildlife and plant communities are under pressure when people get hungry. And you know, I was in Florida near some of the beautiful springs down there a few years ago, and I've also seen these In parts of the Gulf South, but there are these really cool tortoises called gopher tortoises. Have you ever met one of those? Margaret 20:05 No, Janet 20:07 They're kind of big. I just realized I'm using my hands and you're able to see my hands on the podcast. However, they're pretty big turtles.Tortoises. And, they're so cool. One of the things they do is they make these burrows That's why they're called gopher tortoises, but they help a lot of different creatures survive hurricane flooding and other like vast flooding, because other animals will hang out in their burrows. They're like, wombats or something. They're like a helper species that makes habitat for other animals. But, I was reading about them when I was down there and in the Great Depression, the locals down on the Gulf South and in Florida, called them Hoover Chickens. Because they were naming after present President Hoover, who they were blaming for the Great Depression and just got....because they eating so many tortoises to survive, okay, and the tortoise population just like dropped out during that time, and they're slowly getting back, but they have a hard time too, like the box turtles that we live near. And so when I read that I just, it made me really...it made me think about foraging honestly, and how much I had seen this like uptick, with the economic dip, and made me just understand the level to which we need to be emphasizing what's abundant. And what you know...a tortoise....Tortoises are not abundant. They were not abundant even back then, probably. But like, what species are there a lot of? Which species does harvesting actually help the larger plant community? But, also with individual species, there's plants where if you harvest in a specific way that helps propagate them, then you can help increase their numbers as well. And that's going to differ from plant to plant. But, I think that what I would like to see with people getting more and more excited about foraging and wild harvesting of herbs in general, is that actual consciousness about what it is to help their numbers grow so that it's not as much of an extract of relationship? Margaret 22:14 Yeah, no, I remember reading one of the things that like really stuck with me, I read a long time ago, it was about how during the Great Depression, like squirrels and deer were hunted to near extinction in various places. And like.... Janet 22:29 Wow Margaret 22:29 Yeah, exactly. And, you know, these are the things when I think of abundant animals, right, I think of deer and squirrels, at least where I live. And, and so that, that realization that we actually have an impact, you know. Like, the small amounts of destructive things we do really can add up. Obviously, we're living through a, you know, climate level of all of that coming. But no, that's, that's makes me sad about the tortoises. But okay, so So what are some examples then of these? I know I just keeping like, give me more examples, because I like the stories of it. But like, what are some of the plants that you're like helping? I can imagine, for example, like, I mean, obviously, chestnuts are very complicated right now. But, you know, harvesting chestnuts, of course, doesn't necessarily negatively impact the tree. And earlier you were talking about basically being like roots are like much more complicated to extract, or there are like ways of extracting roots that are less bad? Would you mostly say to anyone listening to this unless you know, better just don't mess with roots and work on some other stuff? Janet 23:39 Yeah, you know, and actually, you're reminding me that when I have been seeing a lot of like, more like virally popular foragers, they don't tend to emphasize roots, which I feel grateful for. And yeah, I would say that in general, unless you have a perennial relationship with a plant community than just staying away from roots is a good idea. But with a lot of plants, there are ways to harvest where you're not actually greatly impacting the plant. Let me think of some examples of that. I mean, I almost don't want to bring up ramps because they are so over harvested in some places. Those are wild leeks for people who might not know, but what is true is that if instead of harvesting the bulb, the white bulb, it's kind of like an onion, garlicky thing and each can just take a leaf and harvest leaves from a big patch instead of digging them up that's gonna make a huge difference. Now when you see restaurants start saw offer foragers money for ramps, at least in my neighborhood, I started to see much more like big holes dug where they're just digging up clumps of them at a time and then just taking them wholesale out to sell, you know, and so, I would say like, yeah, the above ground parts are always always gonna be more sustainable to harvest. But also, if you're taking flowers from a plant, for example. I'm trying to think of like a good example of this. I love peach flower medicine, I love peach flower for grief and for hot agitated states and there are feral peach flower trees and, and there's old orchards that are no longer sprayed. And when you're harvesting peach flowers, you can actually support the tree because they need to not let all of those flowers go ripe and become flat fruit because it's too much. So, if you selectively just pick a couple blooms off the into clusters, that's actually going to help the plant overall, you know? Or I'm thinking of, I wanted to give another example of something in a more urban setting. but linden trees are plants, there are some linden trees that are native to this continent, they're called basswood trees, that's the name here. But there's European lindens that are planted ornamentally There's a bunch of them in downtown Asheville. But that's like, where there'll be a huge tree covered with thousands of blossoms and the flowers are the medicine there too. And they're always covered with bees. Bees love them. But, if you see something like that, where you're like, it's impossible to even imagine how many there are, then you can take some flowers, and you're not going to hurt that tree. You know, I guess if we all did that, that would be something we're thinking about. And that's why having a perennial relationship where you see the shifts through the years, see who's getting hit. And, if an area is being over harvested, you can tell because you've been paying attention, that would be something to do. But yeah, I would say like there are a lot of like flowering trees where you can get the flowers or you could even prune some of the branches and have some of what you need. But also with urby plants, the above ground plant, you can kind of see the parts, the aerial parts is what we call them, and notice how much has gone. And usually you can tell if someone else has been there, right. So, that would be what I would say. But again, if you if you're sticking to really weedy abundant plants, then this is going to just be less of an issue like goldenrod, for example, is a gorgeous endemic plant, or a plant that grows on a lot of parts of Turtle Island, which is a really excellent allergy remedy. Not so good for food. But they're incredibly weedy. You'll see a giant field of them right over the place, you know, and so if you just stuck to plants that were pretty weedy and abundant like that, even if you got as much as you're going to need for the year, it would be very little in a dent of even one plant stand. Margaret 27:45 Yeah. Okay, so I took a bunch of notes on what you were saying, because there's so many pieces that I want to pick apart. And one of them is this, I've been running across this thing more, and I suspect you've probably run across a mortgage or rent more in these circles. But this idea that like, the concept of nature is sort of a colonial construct. This idea that like, when we create the idea of nature, we're talking about something that is distinct from humans, and how that's like, kind of this thing that like gets us off the hook. Like when we imagine like humans as only bad. It like lets us off the hook for being bad as compared to like, it seems like you could talk about either you show up and you dig up all the roots of these, you know, ginseng or whatever that's been there forever, and you just like mess everything up, versus they're like other plants that do very well for humans as part of the ecosystem interacting with them in the same way that they do very well for having bees in the ecosystem or birds in the ecosystem. Whatever. Yes. I don't know, it's really interesting to me. And I'm wondering if that's like a conversation that... Janet 28:46 I think that's been a helpful conversation, I think, for people to have around not just having black and white thinking around it, which is what you're gonna get, I think, which is that, if we're actually in relationship, then we're going to be able to care for the plants instead of just taking or just ignoring. I mean, there's definitely, unfortunately, a pretty big segment of people who are into environmental biology who do have a very hands off, 'don't interfere, just leave it,' you know, kind of perspective. Margaret 29:21 The Star Trek approach. Janet 29:23 Definitely, which is I mean, ridiculous given that there are no plants left on the planet who are not being impacted by human activity. So, you actually going in and maybe... So, part of, this is like, kind of an aside from what we're talking about, but there's this concept called assisted migration, which when you're like, "These plants hate how hot it's getting right here. We should move them further north." You know, and so there's all these people who are like, "No, no, we can't interfere. We might ruin everything." You know, it's like time traveling or something like we actually, like do one thing wrong and everything will be, it'll be a clusterfuck. And the whole system will collapse because we move this tree up there. And who knows who else is on there. But then there's a lot of people who there's actually like secret groups who meet to help with assisted migration and to propagate. It's really wild. Anyway, I say all this just to say that, like I'm not on a never interfere with, because I think the interference is happening already. I mean, it's not my life's work to move trees around to places where they might make it. Right. But that is something that, you know, even the research we have about this extinction crisis is just that the loss is huge. And are there places where we could support life becoming, like diversifying and strengthening, plant communities as other trees are coming out? Like right now, where I live? I don't know if this is how you're where it is where you're at or not, but the ash trees are all dying. Margaret 30:56 The ash borer, whatever? Yeah. Janet 30:58 And it's really happening hardcore where we live. So yes, it is true that there will be other trees that are going to come in to those canopy gaps, to live. But we are seeing these forests change dramatically right now. And it's just, it's going to be interesting. Like, there are people who, because the hemlocks are dying out as well from the woolly adelgid along the rivers and streams, and some places around here, there are people who are like, "Well, what are the plants that we could put in here intentionally, that would help shade that would support the trout and support the life in here?" You know, and so those kinds of ecosystem design frameworks make people really uncomfortable because of the level of damage that has happened through the inadvertent introduction of certain species. Margaret 31:48 Right. Well, it's like, if we fucked something up so bad. And 'we' is a weird word to use in this context. But sure, you know, I mean, I'm a settler here and I, you know, reap the rewards of that in terms of like, the foods available to me at the store, whatever, tons of shit. But okay, we fucked this thing up so bad. I can understand people's like, "Oh, no, we fucked it up. We just shouldn't do anything." But, but that's a little bit like, pushing someone over. And then they're like, "Help me up," and you're like, "No, last time I interacted with you, it went really bad. So I'm just gonna walk away." Janet 32:25 No, I mean, exactly. Like, we're gonna just watch the destruction happen that is in the wake of this economic system, and not actually do anything to change it, because we might hurt something. I mean, it's absurd when you actually lay it out that way. Margaret 32:41 Yeah, we set the house on fire. And now we don't want to run in and help people because we just make everything worse, so we should avoid everything. I mean, it's because I think that it makes sense for people to not be like, wildly cavalier about deciding that, you know, they should just get to reengineer the way that ecosystems work. I like, Oh, that's such an interesting tension that I don't have any answers for but... Janet 33:07 Well, I mean, there is a lot of tension with it. I mean, I think a lot of times when I see scientists who are taking a really hard line, 'no interference' stance, they are people who don't study indigenous land management, and don't understand the level to which humans normally play in ecosystem, design and movement, and construction. And so I think that in general, what would be the wisest thing to do for anyone would be you know, what, if you're not indigenous to this place, what are the indigenous folks around you saying about what is wild tending? And what does support and stewardship of this land look like right now? Margaret 33:45 Right. Yeah, though, that makes sense. What is involved in...you know, I'm not indigenous and what would be involved in trying to find that out where I'm at? Do I look for people who are like kind of talking about that publicly? I assume the answer is not just like, go find my friends who are indigenous and be like, "You there..." Janet 34:05 Well, it depends. I mean, it really depends where where people live. I mean, there are in many places around the continent, I'm learning more and more about this, there are actually are cultural centers where you can talk to folks and be like...who are working on land management stuff, right then you know, within whatever tribal sovereignty they have in that situation. Here, this is unceded, Cherokee land, but you know, we are in contact with folks who are doing wild tending and talking about...a lot of the schools there in the Cherokee where the actual reservation is, they are actually trying to introduce more and more wild foods, you know, and so through talking to folks who are part of that project, we've been able to be like, "Okay, like, what, would be helpful for you to have more of?" Also, one thing that I would say in most places, there's some tension between what indigenous groups...what land they have access to and in the Cherokee area, I mean, a specific part that they're still have control over right now, you know, I know a grandmother who was given a $500 citation for picking herbs in the National Forest, for her daughter's memorial, you know, and, at the same time, like they had to have...the Cherokee folks had to push through to try to get a permit to be able to pick this plant called sochan, which is a wild perennial green that people eat in the spring especially. And so through communicating around with those folks, like I've been able to, like learn, like what plants are being prioritized with them, but also like supporting them, you know, like, they had to petition the state for us to be like, "Can we pick herbs on this land?" Right? Yeah. And so actually, like, as annoying as it is supporting that getting the word out, making sure that there's a shit ton of signatures sent to the State Forest, which are just like that this even a question is absurd, right? Especially because there are plenty of settler foragers just going out and foraging with no sort of impact. I mean, they're having an impact, but they don't have to deal with any consequences. So yeah, I guess I would say is like figuring out who's just around you, you know, and usually, and the thing is, is I don't know how the regions are all over the country, but it definitely in the west and southwest and in some parts of the southeast, too, it's not that hard to find cultural centers, or people who are working on land and food sovereignty, where they're at. And so I would just say, I don't know about specifically where you are and that's an interesting question. But, there are cultural centers in a lot of places that will have people working on food, wild food support, and often just like land tending and medicine ways. And I know, in the West, like, we've had a couple of students who actually are doing fire management, intentional fire trainings with with different indigenous tribes out there. And so they're actually learning to do the fire management practices from the people on the ground who had that tradition. And I think that's a fascinating way to learn to and to be like...because that can be somewhat dangerous as you're learning, right?And so like, that feels like a pretty big service to me, to be like, "Could you help do that kind of work somewhere?" And you would learn as you went, what plants are being prioritized, which plants need support, what plants are problems, you know, through through that work as well. Margaret 37:55 Okay. I liked that. I liked that's...I feel like usually that kind of question the like, "Well, what can you do?" doesn't have as good of a concrete answer as that I really appreciate that. One of the things you were talking about earlier, you're talking about, you know, the ramps that are being sold to the restaurants and stuff, right? And I was just thinking about how it seems like when you're talking about foraging, and when you're talking about wildcrafting, obviously, scale matters, but also when money gets involved, it seems like it gets real messy. And like, I wonder how people like, like, is there any ethical wild foods that introduce into market environments? Or is it like pretty much, if you're going to be doing foraging, you should be feeding yourself and your family and maybe your community but not doing it at like market scale? Janet 38:49 Yeah, that's tough. I mean, I don't know. There's definitely some folks around here who do like a wild food, food share even. And then there's people who do wild food...there's like a wild food booth at the farmers market because of this. That's how it is around here. There's just more people with that interest who are willing to pay the big bucks for foraged items. And so I can imagine... Margaret 39:07 Which is just like ironic, but anyway. Janet 39:09 Yeah, if you could see what's on the table at this spot, it's pretty wild. But um, anyway, but so that feels like a scale....it's not that....I'm like, who's actually....like, how much are they actually selling at the farmers market every week? Like, you know, I don't know, it doesn't seem like huge but once we think about like actually scaling up to like, say, like, provide for several stores or something like that, and it does get kind of out of hand. And I know that in some places, like mushroom foraging has gotten pretty wild in a way that can be destructive, but again, that depends on the mushroom. I mean some mushrooms, it actually helps them to have a lot of people in there just sort of disturbing the ground and like spreading the spores around, while some mushrooms when it's not actually the fruiting body like Chaga or something it can be somewhat damaging harvest a lot of it. It really just depends. I think that, if, say like your product was something that was a really, a plant that's causing a lot of trouble in a whole area? Like around here there's there are people who are working really madly on kudzu root production and using kudzu root for for starch and using kudzu root to make paper. They have this kudzu camp every year and like dig a ton of kudzu root and just trying to figure out how many ways they could work with kudzu root. If that was what was entering the market, then that would be fine. Because as you know, having lived in the southeast, there's no shortage of kudzu for people to work with. So, if we were actually making a marketable item out of opportunistic and aggressive plants, then that would be not a bad idea, actually. I mean, yeah, who knows? I'm sure it could get weird. Margaret 40:59 Yeah. Right, because you could eventually enter the nonprofit trap. Like, I'm not anti nonprofits. But at some level, every nonprofit has a financial incentive to continue its problem existing. Janet 41:10 Oh, yes. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So you'd be like, "Oh, God, we've got our kudzu. What are we gonna do?" Margaret 41:15 Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's a good problem for us to run into, right? Janet 41:22 Yeah, definitely. Margaret 41:23 And then, like, I was thinking about one of the other places I've been with the most, like intense invasive things, I think of like, the Himalayan blackberries in the Pacific Northwest, that will just like, take over every field. And, and in some ways, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, great, you know, blackberries." And then I'm like, "Oh, I think if you're just picking the berries, you're actually just propagating." Janet 41:42 Totally, Margaret 41:43 We would need to instead like have the commercial product, 'heart of BlackBerry root' or something, you know? Janet 41:50 It would need to be the root. Probably, yeah. Which is just so wild. If you've ever removed a lot of that stuff, it's so intense. Margaret 41:58 Yeah, I used to do landscaping. And that was, most of what we did is remove Blackberry, BlackBerry root balls or whatever. It's been a long time. Janet 42:08 I think also, since you brought the Northwest up again, I just wanted to say that like part of what I would want to just share here, since we're giving different specific examples is that really, it just matters like place to place even weedy and abundant plants in some places can be a problem if you're harvesting them other places. Like here, stinging nettle is like pretty aggressive. It's abundant. There's a lot of places where you can harvest a huge amount and make barely a dent in the stinging nettle patch. But, I know that there are places in the Northwest where there's actually been a problem. And there are certain butterflies who exclusively lay their eggs, that have caterpillars that feed on nettles, which I don't remember what kind of butterfly this is, and so those butterflies have become endangered because of the foraging craze around Portland specifically, because it's a very small area that they inhabit. So, while I could be like "Nettles, great, just take the top third of the plant. It's a huge patch, it won't matter." Like that doesn't translate to everywhere across the continent, right? So part of what we have to do if we're going to be foraging much for food or medicine is to actually know what are the conditions for the plant where we live? And not just have...I can't give a list of what's safe to harvest everywhere. That's why invasives can feel a little safer. Because generally, if you know something invasive, then you already know that it would be helpful to right take some of them out, but other plants not so much. You know. Margaret 43:41 That's actually one of the things that's really interesting. I think there's a lot of topics that we talked about on the show where you kind of can't learn from this show. You kind of can't learn from this like: "Oh, I follow a forger on Instagram. therefore know all this stuff." I mean, like, I'm sure you can learn a ton of stuff that way. I'm not trying to disparage that, or my own show. But it sounds like local knowledge will always be necessary in a lot of different fields that are the kinds of fields that we like, we as a species need to like learn or we as a culture or whatever, like need to learn in order to survive what's coming anyway are a lot of these skills where we're actually interacting with the places we're at in terms of you know, whether it's like making microclimates that the temperature doesn't change as much or being able to continue to eat food on a regular basis or whatever. as we as we move more local, a lot of the knowledge has to move local. That's really interesting to me. Janet 44:35 Yeah, that's definitely true. And I would also say that it's something that like you have to kind of pay attention to over time, because we have local knowledge as of now, but the climate is shifting so quickly. And a lot of people I know are in zones that have changed already in the past five years. And so, we also need to be paying attention to like who amongst the plants is impacted by this shift to warmer and erratic weather, and who is thriving like that, you know, and so it's also just paying attention to those changes. And and that's something that it really just helps to be an observer over time or to speak to people who've been around for quite a while. And within that, I think it's probably important for us to think of the concept of the shifting baseline from ecology. Which, the shifting baseline means that like...Okay, so my example would be like, when my dad was a kid, my dad's 87. When my dad was a kid, there were so many more kinds of birds, there were so many more animals of all kinds all around like wild animals. There are a lot more specific kinds of like big birds that eat big insects, like Whippoorwills, there are more Bobwhites, there were all these....there were more birds that have now you know, I think the estimation is that there's maybe some people say 30%, some say 50%, less birds than there were 50 years ago. Margaret 45:59 That is so depressing. Janet 46:00 It's incredibly depressing. But when I was growing up, I would not know that if I hadn't read that, or hadn't talked to my dad about how many birds there were, or how many fish there were, or whatever, because I would think like this is how many how much of x there is, you know. And so when you grow up with less, you think less is normal. And we have generation after generation growing up with less and less and less. We have lost an incredible amount of biomass globally. And we don't always know that. So, what I can say like locally living somewhere where there's been like, I don't even know how many herbs schools over the past two decades, there have been so many herbs, schools, and so many foraging schools and places where people....and it just draws and attracts people who are interested in doing that kind of stuff. But also, if you're not already, you will probably will be if you stay here for long enough, I guess. Anyway, the impact on wild plant communities where plant walks happen often, where herbs schools take their students often has been very notable. And it's because, you know, we have like, there's just like, year after a year of alumni, of cohorts of students, of different people who have moved here who have gone and taken classes, and those people continue to visit those spots. Sometimes even if teachers have asked them not to. And they bring their friends, you know, and there's this whole, exponentially more people harvesting plants of certain kinds, there's certain ones that are specifically more exciting than others, probably. And so, just in seeing what's happened since I moved here with some of the more accessible spots with specific plant communities, I'm thinking of pedicularis specifically right now, which Wood Betony is another name for that herb, that's a plant that's very cool and easy to identify, but also has like sort of a relaxing, muscle relaxing feel to it. So people really like it cause it has a little bit like, body relax, feel. And so those patches have just been decimated. And when I see that I'm like, you know, a lot of herb schools, at least in what I was taught traditionally, it was like people would be like, "Go in. And you can have like, you can take about one out of every 10 plants." You know, and that would be like the maxim that we were taught at a certain point, 10%. And, but if everybody comes and takes 10%, what does that even mean? So, that is something that I've seen here specifically is like a cumulative effect of over harvest, over time. And it's increased not just with the people in the field that I'm in, but just with an increase in learning about wild plants and learning what they do. Because people want to take care of their own health or they want to feed themselves, you know, like, I mean, it's not coming from the worst place. It's just that when we're not in relationship and don't know, the baseline of what that patch looked like fifteen years ago, then we don't know that we're in a decimated area, or where we're with plants that are under stress. That's something that you know, from yearly visitation. Margaret 49:07 Okay, and so it seems like then the 'answer,' I hate saying the 'answer,' because I'm sure it's more complicated than anything I could say after that. But like, is this thing that you're talking about, about being in relationship with these plant communities, rather than a quick maxim about like, "Oh, go visit and just it's totally chill to take this stuff," versus like, knowing what's actually happening there and how things are changing. That makes sense. And then as you're saying, with like, a few exceptions, where you're like, "Look, it's fine to take plantain. Fuck it," or whatever. Janet 49:40 Yeah, right. Margaret 49:43 Okay. Yeah, it ties into this thing that I keep thinking back on is like this concept of like, the wild feels infinite, you know? Well, of course, I can't affect the number of...I mean, if you can even look at this, like in a negative sense, right? It's like, :"Oh, I can't affect the number of ticks in my yard." But you actually can. I know the number of ticks in my yard, my yard in particular, feels infinite. How can I possibly have an impact on the number of ticks? And there are ways that I could impact that number of ticks and like, so like, if I had guinea hens or whatever, and they ate a bunch of ticks, you could actually create a notable difference, even though it seems like you're digging from this infinite pool of ticks. This is a very gross metaphor. And so that makes sense that yeah, either these things that feel abundant, and as long as you take 10%, but you're not thinking about how everyone does it. I mean, the whole baseline shift thing, I like...nothing is more depressing to me than thinking about the lack of biodiversity as compared to a hundred, years ago, even. Janet 50:49 It's so wild. Margaret 50:51 Yeah. Which leads me to the sort of conclusion of like, I think I have a difference in opinion than a lot of my friends and a lot of my community, like, I have more of this, like, "Great, we all need to start growing food inside," like, this very, like opposite method of solving it, or rather, specifically, because I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, well, we'll all go forage," right? You know, as this like, "Ah, well, nature will provide for us," and it's kind of like, well, nature did provide for us, and then our culture, our settler culture, like fucked that up real bad. But, I like this thing that you're talking about, about like, one of the main ways to solve that, on a small scale, at least is to grow into community with the place that you're harvesting from, to not be extractive. Janet 51:42 I think that there has to be kind of a mix too. I mean, I agree with you, like, I encourage people to grow their own medicine and to grow their own food as much as they can. But, also, I can say that like as a...I'm a clinician, like, you know, I have a clinical practice with herbs. And once you actually see the volume of plant material it takes to keep even a few people on a formula, or on a tea, it's really wild. Like if I was not using some grown plants with also some weedy plants that I can just harvest, like, I don't know what I would do. And that's just me. Like, if we were all doing what I'm doing, then the amount of plant material would be pretty enormous. I mean, I think about how, you know, in China, it's amazing, they have still pretty intact herbal medicine tradition that's part of their medical system. I mean, it got homogenized after Mao, for sure, and changed, although they're still people who practice pre Maoist Chinese medicine, but they have an enormous amount of land given to a monoculture of growing herbs for that industry. And so, you know, when I have folks be like, "Well, we should just grow our own plants," I'm like, "Well, when we're actually, if you were actually talking about the scale of supporting a lot of people's health, that is a lot of land." And and for feeding, it's going to be even more or land, because the caloric intake we would all require is more than that, that we need with herbs, right? So,how much land are we talking? You know? Margaret 53:15 No, that that makes a lot of sense. One of the things you brought up at the beginning, that you said you wanted to return to and we're coming near the end, you were talking about how like more and more you're seeing maybe students coming to your school, because they're interested in herbalism. And they're interested in forging and wildcrafting out of economic necessity. Basically. Like, you know, I think about, you're talking about, like, your wildcrafted table at the farmers market where everything is like wildly expensive. No pun intended. And, you know, versus like, kind of the whole point of foraging is that it's free. Right? And I wonder if you want to talk more about that, about like...because I do think that there is even if I'm like, obviously there's a million problems with foraging, it does seem like it still could have a way to be useful to help people on an economic level as like food prices go through the roof and wages stagnate or disappear. And all that. Janet 54:11 I do, I do think it has a place. And I will say that like you know, just for the record in case my students are listening to that, there's always a fair number of people who have come in like staunchly anti wildcrafting as well. So there's definitely a pretty good mix. But, I but I've been noticing more and more every year there are more people that are like, "I think this is a survival skill," with the economic downturn that's happening, which is what you're referring to. And so I do think that wild foods that are abundant and weedy can be a really helpful supplement to other food. For sure. I think that actually trying to live off of it is challenging. That's something people will learn. But, you know, it is true that there's some things we get with wild foods that we do not get from the domesticated food that we eat normally and I should just point out that I think that unless people can afford to eat organic foods, especially if it's organic food with restorative agricultural practices, which is not a lot of organic food, we're usually eating food if it comes from the grocery store, and in some cases, even the farmers market that is coming from extremely depleted soil, because the pressures of capitalism, of the market require people just to like, not ever let the land be fallow. They just have to continue to pump the land and extract that food from it in ways even though they're growing the food. And so most of the food that we eat is pretty nutrient deficient, compared to what it would be in a more restorative agricultural system. Now wild food, if it's not in a place that's very polluted, that's a whole other topic that we should probably mention, is going to be growing out of a place that's not just having like a cycling of harvest over and over again. And so they tend to be more nutrient dense. So, if you could pick nettles in a place that doesn't have a lot of toxins in the soil, it's going to, they're going to be nettles, that actually have a lot more mineral content than the greens you get at the grocery store. The same is true for dandelion greens. So, while you might not be able to really like, bulk up your diet with a ton of calories from the wild, although you could, it just honestly takes a lot of time and energy that not everyone has. You will, even by supplementing a little bit with dandelion greens or other wild greens, you are going to actually get more of a nutritional impact. You'll get more minerals. You get this bitter flavor that's been mostly bred out in the domesticated greens and lettuces. There's not bitter any more. Bitterness actually has a purpose, which is that it helps the liver function, it helps with digestion. So, I do think that if people supplemented their diets with some wild food, it would be beneficial in more than just those calories and in more than just the money saved, because we are eating from such a depleted food system. So, this is all to say that as our budgets are being impacted by the level of inflation and how much food cost, which is just going to get worse is what it looks like, it's also just true that we're we're buying food that doesn't have as much nutrition as it should. You know? And so, you're getting more than just like that handful of greens on your salad, you're getting actually like pretty dense nutritional food. Margaret 57:35 That makes sense to me. At the beginning of the pandemic, I basically like lived off of my prepper stash, supplemented by wild greens for like, a month or so, which I wouldn't like immediately recommend anyone has like fun and joyous. But, I was really, really grateful, like none of my calories came from the wild greens, but the sense that I'm actually like taking care of my body came from the wild greens. Janet 57:59 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And that does change things. You know, I mean, I think that's what I would say, is I'm not sure how much it'll like reduce cost hugely at this point to be adding in a lot of other food, but that improvement in your health is going to be noticeable. Margaret 58:22 Okay, well, we're coming up on an hour. I'm wondering if there's anything in particular that we missed that you wish we had talked about or like? Janet 58:33 Oh, I do have Yeah, I do have one thing to talk about. So, this may also makes sense to you, having lived around here at some point, and it's that I was going to recommend that people read this essay by Robin Wall Kimmerer that's called "The Honorable Harvest" and I can send you a link to that because there's PDFs of that online, but she admits I was....Yeah, I was reviewing it today and she reminded me of something and it's that so, for a while, this is getting to be less the case, but for a while, within different herbs circles and foraging circles that I was adjacent to there was a sort of a nod towards respectful relationships with the plants you might be harvesting and Robin Wall Kimmerer says in her piece, like you know, "Always ask permission from the plant." But, there's something that I was seeing like pretty commonly in settler foragers and herbalist, which would be like just like a really quick like, "Is this okay?" to the plant and then they're like, "They said, "Yes,"" and then they would just go ahead and harvest very quickly, you know, and like, just like I swear, like immediate, like plants they'd never hung out with before like, this happened in front of me, like I mean, you know. And so, I had always been like kind of turned off by the exchange, well it wasn't really an exchange, but like by that whatever gesture, gesture towards pretending to have communication. Which it doesn't mean there's not communication but, there was this really awesome way that Robin Wall Kimmerer talked about it where she's just like, "You have to use both parts of your brain for that conversation. You're not just using the talking and listening, you have to also use the part of your brain that's assessing that circumstances, assessing the health of the plant, attention over time. It's not just about intuition and communication with the plant world. It's also actually about empirical understanding and paying attention," you know. And so to me, and what I've seen in my life is that like, I'm like, I sometimes know, it's not even appropriate to ask. I'm just like, "This standard is not doing okay. I'm not going to harvest plants here right now," you know. And so, the idea that all that we need is like a really brief exchange of like, "Is this cool? Cool. Got it," you know and move in. It's like, that's still very extractive. But, it makes you feel like you did something. Margaret 1:00:52 I mean, there's a really obvious comparison here to like the way that consent culture and sex is like not handled incredibly well. Janet 1:01:00 Sure. Margaret 1:01:00 Yeah, where people are like, "Whatever. I asked," versus like, "I should try and figure out how everyone actually feels." Janet 1:01:07 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So just to say that, like, it's more than asking, like asking, and listening,. Listening means actually listening over time. It's not an instant gratification listen, you know? Yeah, that's my last note, which would just be like to actually learn to listen and pay attention and observe and not...Unlearning extractive tendencies. And unlearning the entitlement that we all carry, live and breathe in settler colonial capitalism is a lot of work. And it requires patience and time. But also, I will say that if you see someone else behaving in a way that you're not that into, you know, understanding that probably yelling at them is not gonna make them change their mind or behavior very quickly. So, also to have patience with other people who were on different learning edges here with this, you know? Margaret 1:02:05 Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. Well, where can people...do you want people to find you? Janet 1:02:16 Yes, I have. So, I have a blog that's called Radical Vitalism with my partner, Dave. And our school is Terra Sylva School, which we run with Jen Stovall. I can put that stuff in, I'll send it to you to put in the show notes. And then we also have a podcast called The Book on Fire. And we're about to start our third season. And we're going to actually talk about the "Dawn of Everything." So, that should relate... Margaret 1:02:41 Oh, I love that book. Janet 1:02:42 Yeah, so good. So good. So, it relates to kind of some of what we're talking about at least. Margaret 1:02:46 Cool. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much. And I'm sure have you on again, at some point. Janet 1:02:54 Yeah. Thanks a lot. Margaret 1:02:55 Thank you so much for listening. if you enjoyed this podcast....Well, first of all, if you enjoyed hearing from Janet, I highly recommend that you check out the earlier episode with Janet and Dave about herbalism and herbalism for emergency medical needs and all of that. They have a lot to say. And if you enjoyed this episode, and you enjoy this podcast in general, please consider supporting us by telling people about the podcast and telling the internet about the podcast and telling algorithms about the podcast by rating, and reviewing, and subscribing, and all of that stuff that has a larger impact than one might expect. Much like killing ticks in your yard, you can also support us financially. This podcast pays its audio editor and the transcriptionist. And we're very proud to be able to do that work. And we are supported in that work by the people who support Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness on Patreon, the publisher that publishes us. That's what makes it a publisher. It's called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We have another podcast called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness that you can check out, that comes out every month and has different fiction, and memoir, and poetry, and essays, and all kinds of fun stuff that comes out once a month. And if you support us on Patreon, you'll get a zine in the mail every month. Well, if you support us at $10 or more on Patreon, you get a zine in the mail every month. And in particular, I would like to thank Aly and Paparouna and Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, Theo, Hunter, Sean, S.J., Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Kat J., Staro. Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the dog. You all make it possible, make the dream work. You're the team work...anyway, I will talk to you all soon and I hope you're doing as well as you can. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co
Episode Summary Brooke talks with Alissa and Alex about horrors of the legal system. She walks through both of their legal ordeals from the circumstances of their targeting, arrests, court appearances, and current statuses. Alissa and Alex were both arrested separately in connection to violence from the far Right. Guest Info Alissa Azar (she/they) is currently in need of support to retain legal services. You can find her fundraiser at https://donorbox.org/help-alissa-get-proper-legal-defense. You can also find her on Instagram @r3volutiondaddy, or on Twitter @AlissaAzar. Alex (He/him) can be found on Mastodon @betacuck4life. Host Info Brooke can be found at Strangers helping up keep our finances intact and on Twitter and Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Surviving the Justice System with Alissa and Alex Brooke 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, your host for this episode. Today we are talking with a couple of wonderful leftists about their experiences with the American court system, and how they've been supported by their community and by mutual aid. Without revealing your names or any details, would each of you like to say, "hi" or "hello" to our audience? Alissa 00:37 Hi. Alex 00:40 Hello Brooke 00:45 All right, before we officially unveil today's guests, you know I gotta show some love to fellow members of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. So let's hear a little about one of those other cool pods. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. Brooke 01:52 And we're back. Friends, thank you for joining me today to talk about the injustice of our justice system. Would you please each actually introduce yourselves and share your pronouns? Alissa 02:02 My name is Alissa Azar. She/They. Alex 02:04 My name is Alexander Dial. He/him. Brooke 02:12 Well, thank you. So both of these friendly, lovely folks have had to deal with, as I just said, the injustice of our justice system. They've both been arrested and charged with crimes. And Alex has been through kind of the whole system: jail, bail, going to court, living on probation, including having to do community service and reporting to a probation officer. And Alissa is kind of in the midst of that grinding system with some uncertainty in the future of what's going to happen. So, why don't we go ahead and you know, if each of you want to take a few minutes and kind of tell us a little bit about your backstory of, you know, the circumstances in which you were arrested and what happened there and, Alex, it's your turn to go first. Alex 02:56 Okay, yeah, I was arrested on August 17, 2019. At sort of a big deal to-do street event here in Portland, Oregon. Much Ado was made about this thing, by the far Right, mostly from out of town CHUDs you know. As usual, it's pretty typical for most of the time for us to get invaded....Although it's probably worth noting that they haven't been around lately. I got picked up after a couple of well publicized confrontations. Probably the most famous one was the the bus incident, which I suppose we can get into in detail in a bit here. But, I was arrested that day, and taken into custody, released and then subsequently taken back into custody a little later under some, I don't know probably typically shitty circumstances with regards to how our legal system works here, especially when it comes to cases that are media sensitive, I guess you might say. And today is actually kind of a special day with regards to all of that, which is something else we'll get into I suppose when the time comes, but I've been put through the wringer and am just now getting out the other end here nearly five years later. Brooke 04:21 Yikes. Okay, I'm gonna circle back to more details of the of the 'bus incident' in a second. But Alissa, if you want to tell us a little bit of your story, too, and feel free to throw in some more details to Alissa 04:32 Yeah, so I probably should have said this in my intro, but I am an independent journalist. I don't work for anyone but myself and the community and my situation, actually it was another, you know, fascist invasion. There was a counter protest to a demonstration that was going on countering the Proud Boys and I was there that day as a journalist. I was reporting and covering the event. And it was it was a pretty wild and scary day. I'll get into more detail about that too, later. But anyways, I would say like, maybe five or six months or so after that day had passed, I had received an indictment in the mail notifying me that a grand jury found me guilty and that the DA was pressing charges, including felony charges. And, yeah, it's been, it's been really, really difficult, you know, that in conjunction with, you know, something else that happened more recently, just finding myself being targeted for the journalism and, you know, the coverage that I do provide, both by the State and by, you know, just citizens of the United States that are, you know, members of the far Right. And yeah, it's been Hell to say the least, and not in a good way, not the good kind of Hell. Brooke 06:12 Yeah, I should have said this more at the top too, just to really emphasize how grateful I am that you're here and willing to talk about it when you're, you know, in the middle of going through this hell. I mean, that's I that's got to be incredibly difficult. And I'm just really grateful that you were willing to make the time and talk about it with us. Alissa 06:31 Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate that. My my trial is finally set. It's just a few months away. My trials in April. So yeah, definitely a mixed bag of feelings and emotions, for sure. Brooke 06:45 Yeah, I can only imagine. Alex, I want to circle back to you. Alex 06:52 Sure. Brooke 06:54 Because I think the details of the bus incident. People probably heard the story or will remember it. I certainly remember seeing the photo which was some what iconic. If you want to just briefly talk about what happened on that day. Alex 07:09 Sure. Yeah, um, you know, it was a day like any other. I woke up, donned to my armor, stepped into the streets to confront an invasion of fascists from out of town. You know, regular Thursday stuff. That particular day, I mean, I've been to a lot of protests, I have been an activist for longer than I've been an adult and, you know, things do get sort of predictably hairy, but everybody remembers how the tone in the streets really shifted, probably starting right around 2016. You know, I don't really remember that sort of ruckus, since like, the WTO stuff back in the day, you know, I mean, I mean, barring like a few other flashes in the pan, but the situation out there, just kept escalating, you know, for years, and I was down in Southern California, for the first part of that time, you know, and then I moved up here to Portland, and I was like, "Well, I'm still an American. So I guess I'm gonna get back out there." So out there I went. And that day was a mess. You know, I mean, everybody remembers how....The way that the Right had been touting this event as like a 'bloodbath.' And I need it in their words, "Buy guns," said Joe Biggs, you know, "Bring ammunition. Get concealed carry permits." He was showing off a baseball bat covered in spikes that had Trump's name on it, specifically related to this event. That day, August 17, 2019. You know, they were talking about like, 'taking the the streets of Portland,' and like, 'cleansing' them. I mean, this is all their language, you know, I'm quoting them. So we were, you know, understandably pretty alarmed out here. And, I wasn't running around out there with an affinity group at the time. You know, I had been out in the streets before then. So people, some people recognized me, but Brooke 09:28 You were doing group OpSec wearing your betacuck shirt too? Alex 09:32 Well, you know, a lot of people ask me about that. And the answer I usually give people is, you know, I don't think it's always appropriate to make ourselves small and to shrink back from these threats. You know, there's a time to present yourself and I feel like they were talking about coming here and murding us. And I was like, "Well, at least they're gonna recognize me. They're gonna know who they're trying to kill," you know? Brooke 10:09 Yeah. Alex 10:12 So, you know, the day really wasn't too extraordinary. I mean weirdly enough. I mean, it's crazy to say that now, but at the time, in terms of a Portland Street event, during those years, it was like, not that weird. In fact, kind of low key. There weren't really that many really gnarly confrontations I was party to or saw. But, things got really pretty wild when the Nazi bus came back. A lot of people don't know that they they left. And by the time I confronted them along with, you know, many other Portlanders up on the bridge. They had left Portland and had turned around and come back to reconfront us. Brooke 10:59 And then for listeners who might not know, you know, talk about what specifically happened with you and them in that bus. Alex 11:06 So, we should start, I think by talking about who was on the bus, because this has been, you know, contested information in certain parts of the internet. The people on that bus were primarily hardcore Neo Nazis, from a group called the American Guard. These were not just like Trump supporters or Second Amendment enthusiasts, although they were both, you know what I mean? These people were members of a hate group, tied to the Vinlinders Social Club, which is another group of Neo Nazis founded by Brian James. And they've been linked to a handful of murders here in the United States. So they're very dangerous people. And I knew who they were. That's the thing. I knew who was on that bus. So, when I saw them on the bridge, after having already watched them leave town, I was like, "They came back." You know? There were some people down there with me in the streets, a couple of people I had, you know, sometimes just sort of snowball with people that you meet out there and your roll together for safety, you know? So I was out there with a couple of people I had met, and I saw the bus up there on the on the bridge, and we talked about it, and I was like, "That's the American Guard." You know, "They came back," and we talked it over a little bit. And I said, "Well, let's go get them." And so we went up there. And we didn't actually assault the bus, which was a popular meme at the time of Right wing media, espoused in particular by our very own fascists propagandist, Andy Ngo, we didn't attack the bus, unless you count like a couple of thrown plastic half full water bottles and me flipping them the bird, you know, people stood around, they shouted at the bus, we heckled them. And then they opened the doors. And the first person who came out of that bus had an eight inch blade in his right hand. They had been brandishing both a pistol and a hammer through the windows before they stepped outside. So, we knew they were armed. The doors open, they came outside, and for better or for worse, an elderly man who was among us rushed to the doors, and apparently startled the first Nazi, the one with the knife, who fell on his ass just immediately. Alex 13:55 Right, yeah. And a little tussle ensued between this old man and this Nazi. And during that scuffle, the man in the bus, one of the other Neo Nazis, an American Guard member named Mark Kwan, the one who had been brandishing the hammer through the windows, he stepped into the doorway above the fight going on in the door of the bus and started swinging this claw hammer down at the skull of this elderly man, who at that point was losing the fight that that he had gotten into, and was in the process of being abducted into the bus by the formerly knife wielding Nazi who had dropped his MAGA hat. I saw what was happening. I set down my water bottle, which was made of metal you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt. So, I ran up there and I seized the hammer in mid swing from Mark Kwan. Mr. Kwan. And together with some of my allies from Portland, we wrestled it away. The Nazis fell back into the bus. They released the elderly man. I tossed their hammer back inside, where it you know, allegedly glanced Mr. Kwan, although there are no victims in my case, and nobody was ever able to contact him for some reason. Yeah, it's crazy. Brooke 13:55 Yay! Brooke 15:34 Mysterious, Mr. Kwan. Alex 15:35 Yes, it's wild. Yes, that Mr. Kwan, if he exists, that was written in my case file by my attorney, "Mr. Kwan, if he exists." And this prosecution never followed up on whether he exists. The door is closed. I kicked in one of the panels on the doors, you know, just having witnessed and attempted murder in process. My blood was a little up. I do admit it. And a nameless hero released a cloud of tear gas into the bus and the bus sped away down the completely open lane in front of them that they could have taken at any time. And yeah, that was the story. That's the Bus Incident. The whole confrontation took, I don't know, maybe six seconds, perhaps. And it's informed my life for nearly five years. Brooke 16:28 Yeah. Were you immediately arrested at that point? Alex 16:30 I was not immediatly arrested. I was arrested nearly an hour and a half later. Brooke 16:37 Okay. Alex 16:38 Yeah, I had an opportunity to help some other people. Brooke 16:41 Yeah. So that's interesting. It was still the same day, same event. But, a little while later in that, and at the time, were you arrested for the bus incident, specifically? Or for---[Alex interupts] Alex 16:54 Yeah. So, that's a really interesting contrast to Alissa, what you were saying because, you know, you went to the event, and you went home, and it was months later. So, I'm curious if you are able to talk at all about what actually happened the day of the event, and then what you were later accused of doing and charged with? Alex 16:54 I'm assuming so. It's tough to say. The the paperwork I got is a little unclear as to what the probable cause was. It cites reports that the Portland Police had received reports from people.... I mean, the truth is that Andy Ngo poached that footage from Elijah Schaefer. And they gave it directly to the Portland Police, who took it as evidence and snatched me up at the first opportunity. But, it might not have been that video that did it. It could have been something else they referenced. The paperwork isn't really clear on that. And in my case, is closed now, so I can talk about it all. But, it's tough to say really what it is precisely that got the cops to get me, but when they tackled me, this gaggle of bacon-backs, [Brooke and Alissa laugh] you know, and stomped me into the pavement and tried to tase me, but couldn't because I was wearing a bulletproof vest, they told me I was under arrest for assault. So, you know, I mean, but that's really all they're gonna tell you. The cops are not really well known for, for knowing things. Alissa 17:32 Yeah, I'll share as much as I can without, you know, like I said, before, my situation is ongoing and my trial's in April. So and it's, you know, it's not that I have anything to hide at all, but you know, we, we all know, here, how the State works and how they love us everything and anything against us. So yeah, as I mentioned earlier, the event that I was documenting and reporting on was a counter to the Proud Boys. And this was in September of 2021. So, it was during a time when things were really, really tense in the pacific northwest. This is after, you know, a lot of growing tension, a lot of escalated escalation from the fascists, you know, after being used to night after night at protests of them doing drive bys and throwing, you know, IEDs and pipe bombs at us and just, you know, just a bunch of shit that had been going on and in Portland and surrounding areas. So yeah, we were we were at a park. And also, I just want to disclaimer, my memory is like, pretty fucking shitty, especially since then. That day, I actually got punched in the head by A Proud Boy who's an MMA fighter and like four times my size, and I got a major concussion that I'm like still dealing with. And then also, trauma hasn't really been great for my memory. But yeah, we were all in a park. And the group of leftists who were there was not very large. I can't remember off the top of my head, how many people were there. But, compared to other events, it was a relatively small crowd. And up until the point that I'm about to get to, there was just a lot of like, back and forth, yelling and whatnot. And eventually, the Proud Boys got closer and closer. And the group of leftist somehow ended up being surrounded. There was basically a circle of Proud Boys just trying to intimidate everyone and up to this point, even when everyone was circled, they were still just standing there in an attempt to intimidate everybody,. Just trying to look tough. And what really kind of sparked things off is I remember I was kind of standing like in the middle of the circle and there was like a group of people in front of me who allegedly...I don't know if it's a flag that they had or if they stole it from the Fasc, but I believe that it was an American flag, and they set it on fire on the ground. Brooke 21:35 That's what that flags for. [Laughs] Alissa 21:39 And I was kneeling down filming and then it just like popped off so quick. As soon as they saw that the flag was on fire, they got so triggered. They came in and like pushed the people right in front of me and like, just, yeah, that's when kind of shit hit the fan....Like, fuck, where do I go from here? There's just so much that happened. Alex 22:07 You know, the reason they did that...I mean, I don't mean to interrupt your flow here, but they.... Alissa 22:11 No, go ahead. Alex 22:12 The reason they did that is because they have their own camera people. They've got all these amatuer, you know, right wing Grifters trying to sell footage, and also the Proud Boys and their ilk, they sell this footage to each other to get each other to join. So, they see Antifa burning a flag. And if no one retaliates, they all look weak. Alissa 22:38 Yeah, 100%. Alex 22:39 Yeah, so that's why they rushed y'all right there. You know? I mean, it's not a justification, but that's the deal. Alissa 22:46 Yeah, they definitely have a game plan for sure. And yeah, I just remember things being really chaotic. There's a lot of people that got injured that day. Yeah, at one point....I mean, before that, like, I was like walking around, filming, taking pictures. And like, I was just getting threats left and right. Like, for what? Like being a photographer?Like what? Like, yeah, this one lady kept being like, "You and me, we're going to tango." And it's so funny, because it's the lady who like, all the Right wingers and Andy Ngo, keep calling like an 'innocent bystander.' And she just kept, like following me, and she's like, "You and me, we're gonna tango." And I'm like, "Girl, I'm not here to fight anybody. Like, just leave me alone. Let me take my fucking picture." Things just. Yeah, things just got pretty crazy. Some of them were like, going after individuals to like, you know, attack them violently. Other people were going towards...It wasn't a gazebo, but there was like this covered area where a bunch of people had stuff at. I had some of my stuff there, too. I remember having like a charger and I think my phone was over there. And like, people were going over there like, some of the Fascists were going over there and like stealing signs and stealing people's shit and stuff. And yeah, it was just really bad. One of the last things I remember, like I said, I got punched in the head. I didn't faint or anything, but like, it was a really bad punch. And I stood up right away. And at that point, the cops had like, come in. And they declared it and unlawful assembly, I believe, Alex 24:45 After you got assaulted? Brooke 24:48 Of course, as they do. Alissa 24:51 Yeah, they declared it an unlawful assembly. It was really weird because the Leftist were trying to leave, like out of the park and go the way that the cops are telling them to go, because it was definitely not a situation where people could like stand their ground. Like, I think that was like the smart thing to do at the time. And I just remember, like, I was being escorted by a medic. And like, I think it was two medics actually holding me. I don't know, I couldn't really see much or like, whatever. But I just remember thinking like, "What the fuck is happening?" because, like, as we're trying to get out of there, and the cops were coming in declaring it an unlawful assembly, it wasn't any longer just the Proud Boys that everyone had had that confrontation with beforehand, like leading up to that moment. All of a sudden, there was this new group of Proud Boys, larger than the group that had already been there, all marching in together with like shields and weapons, like, coming towards us, like walking through the cops, walking with the cops. And it's just like, it was just like, the perfect example of like, "Cops and clan go hand in hand." And it was like they were coming towards the group together, even though they had just declared it unlawful. Like, these guys were still welcome to come in. And mind you, like, you know, most people were just like I said, they're just trying to get out of there. Or you know, there was also quite a few people who were hurt that day. So yeah, it was just it was chaotic in the worst way possible. Brooke 26:37 Yeah. And so then a few months go by, and I think you said it was a letter that came in the mail that let you know? Alissa 26:43 Yeah, I got a letter in the mail that said I was indicted. Alex 26:48 You're a crimer now. [Laughs] Alissa 26:54 [Starts] Sorry...I'm like, trying to separate my charges from like, my most recent, bullshit arrest. Alex 27:00 Oh, God, no, I can totally relate to that. Alissa 27:05 I'm being charged with Relony Riot, Unlawful Use of Tear Gas, and Disorderly Conduct. Alex 27:15 Tear gas? Like 'you're' deploying tear gas? Alissa 27:18 And the best part about it is like my uterus is literally beyond fucked up because of the frequent exposure to the State's deployment of tear gas.... Alex 27:29 [Interuptiing] Yeah, that's right. I totally forgot about that. That's like a thing. Alissa 27:35 Oh, it's definitely a thing. I know multiple people who...[trails off] Yeah, I'm the bad guy here. Brooke 27:44 Okay, So after you get this letter in the mail, I assume it's telling you have to appear at some point, probably or something like that? Yeah? Alissa 27:52 Yeah. Brooke 27:53 And so then you didn't you know, didn't have to go to jail. You didn't have to post bail for that. But they did. You just got picked up by the police, right? They pulled you in and harassed you a time or two. Do you feel like talking about that? Can you talk about that? Alissa 28:06 Yeah, you're talking about the most recent arrest? Brooke 28:14 Yes. Alissa 28:18 So yeah, that. Let's see, I'm like "What is time?" That happened probably like just under a month ago. It was the day after Christmas. And I was pulling in to park in front of my place. And the second I parked, I see this white SUV. it didn't look like a police vehicle. It was just a white SUV. It was coming towards me from the opposite direction. And as soon as I was opening my door, it stopped and parked right next to my car. The sirens go on. And then at that point, there was an additional four to five cop cars that were parked on the side of the street. All undercover vehicles. Alex 29:14 [Exclaiming in incredulity] Four to five?! Alissa 29:16 Yeah, yeah. And all of their sirens and their lights turned on. And I was super confused. I have no idea what this could be about. So yeah, they...[trails off] I'm like, how into detail do I go? Again, this is also like an ongoing thing. This is very recent. So... Brooke 29:16 Yeah, I'm more just looking for like, what the experience of being you know, arrested was like, you know, like, I feel like if I was in that moment, I would be like, "Are they coming from the guy next to me? Is there someone over there?" because it would be hard to believe that that many police had shown up for a little old me Alex 30:00 [Joking] You warrant that sort of turnout. I mean, come on. Wow. Alissa 30:04 For sure. It was very bizarre. At the moment, I was kind of like, I would say I was mainly just really fucking confused. Especially because they would not tell me why I was like...First I was like, "Am I being pulled over? Like, what's going on?" And then they had me get out of the car. They wouldn't tell me anything. It felt like I was being kidnapped, which I was kidnapped. And, you know, I went to the precinct. Still did not tell me like what was going on. They said that they wanted to question me. I said, "Lawyer." The questioning never happened. They didn't like that. [laughs] It wasn't until after....so we went to the precinct and then they took me to the Justice Center. It wasn't until after I was booked that I even found out what my charges are, which got changed like a million times. But yeah, it was really scary. Because that was almost a full day. Because when I when they picked me up, it was quite early in the morning. And that whole day, I didn't know, why I was in there. I didn't know anything. I just knew that they had me and they have the power to do whatever the fuck they want. So I was terrified. I, you know, I was like, I have no way to like, contact anyone and tell them what's going on. It was like, you know, my partner is probably trying to reach me, and is like, "What the fuck is happening?" Yeah, again, like, a very mixed bag of emotions and feelings. But yeah, that type of stuff is really scary. Especially when, you know, let's be realistic, when you're in that kind of situation we don't really have any power to do anything. And it fucking sucks, feeling so helpless and hopeless. And you know, they know that. Yeah, yeah. Like where do I start? Alex 32:10 I gotta tell you that, the story of that arrest there. That's worse than I thought it was going to be. I wasn't anticipating it to be quite so persistently merciless. I mean, they can just detain you and not tell you shit. But, a lot of the time, you know, they don't hang on to you for the whole day and never say anything to you. I mean, because the other thing is that cops cops are cruel. But, also they're like, apathetic, you know, like some, some ass wipe pig is going to say something to you, you know, or someone who's just working a desk that day is just going to be like, "Oh, here," you know, and say whatever. Yeah, and it's wild to me that, um, that they were so dedicated to keeping you in the dark that day, the whole day. Yeah, it's intense. It's worse than I thought it was Alex 33:06 Yeah, it's bad. Brooke 33:09 So, again, I'm interested in the in the contrast here, because Alex, if you want to talk about, you know, you were arrested that day, we started talking about that. So you kind of knew why you were being arrested. But, then you also got booked and I actually don't know if you've spent some jail time right then or if you got out sooner or what happened. But if you want to tell yours? Alex 33:35 Fucking Cops. Alex 33:35 Yeah, yeah, the story of what happened to me on the on the day. That was the day. They didn't really seem all that interested in me, actually. I mean, they kicked my ass a little bit, of course, like they do. Like the arrest was like six officers and they like stepped on my fingers and tried to tase me and got frustrated when they couldn't and then, you know, knelt on my head and stuff. And I was like, "What am I under arrest for?" And they answered me with one word, and they just went "Assault" and I went, "Who?" because you know, I mean, it had been a busy day. So, they took me in that day, and I was stuck in holding. I never actually made it to jail proper, you know, I just sat. When they took me to the station, they stripped me down completely to my underwear. They put me in a paper jumpsuit. Oh, yeah, they got me. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, they saw they saw at all. I have a bunch of boyfriends down at the police station. Alex 33:44 No, no, no, no, it didn't go down like that, I promise. But they stuck me in a cell. They left those plastic fucking cuffs on me honestly. Well, you know if I'm starting from the beginning, honestly, the first thing that happened was they they threw me in paddy wagon and let me sit in there for, I don't know, an hour and a half, maybe. And they through a woman in the room next to me, because you know, those are side by sides. It's like two long horse stalls next to each other. And you can't see into the other one. But there are these vents, these corrugated vents, you know. So there's air exchange, and you can hear everything, but you can't see. And there's someone in there who's crying and screaming in pain. I mean. Alissa 35:31 Oh my God. Alex 35:32 Oh, yeah. Like somebody was hurt, you know? So, I started talking to her, and I was like, "Hey, hey, what's happened to you?" You know, and she was like, "My shoulder. My shoulder is broken." Alissa 35:46 Oh, my God Alex 35:47 I was like, "Are you sure it's broken?" And she was like, "Yes." And I was like, "Did the police do it to you?" And she said, "Yes". And I was like, "Do they have you in cuffs?" And she was like, "Yes." And I was like, "Okay." Um, so I just started talking to her, you know. I told her my name, and I just started to talk to her, you know, and I was like, "Look, they're gonna take us somewhere, and you're, you're probably going to get medical attention. But I mean, they might not give it to you." So I was like, "The thing you got to do is stay calm and just breathe, you know, because the pain is not going to stop, but you can manage it. So you got to breathe." So we sat there, and we breathed. And we drove eventually, I mean, after a long, long time, but she was in a ton of pain. And later I reconnected with her after a long time, nine months or something. And it turned out to be...Well, well, I don't know that I have her permission to talk about her. But she made a name for herself twerking on the streets. She was twerking on the streets that day. And, you know, I doubt I doubt she would mind being brought up here, but I don't have her explicit permission. So, you know. And she said, she'd been looking for me. She was like, "I didn't know that was you that was talking to me." And when we pulled over into the police station, I started yelling at the cost. "I was like, You need to get her out of here and get her help. She's hurt." And they just left her in there. They took me out and they processed me right away. And they just left her in there. And she's in there. Like, I mean, practically screaming still, you know, she was a lot of pain. It was it was terrible. And we'd been sitting in there for over an hour. Yeah, and then I couldn't feel my thumbs for a couple of days after that ride because they didn't take the cuffs off. They didn't take my cuffs off even after they brought me into the building and processed me and stripped me down. They left those fucking cuffs on me. They took them off, they put them back on and then they stuck me in a freezing cold concrete room in a paper jumpsuit. And Detective Clifton came in and asked me for my side of the story, and I said "Lawyer." But actually what I told him that I wanted to wait for my attorney, and then he came in later with some other cop who was really rude to me. And then Clifton came back and spoke to me again and he was really nice. And I was like, "Oh, so you're good cop, right?" They didn't come back to talk to me again after that. Brooke 35:57 Yeah, of course. Alex 36:19 Call them out. Brooke 37:56 So, you were in the holding you said for the whole day... Alex 38:28 I was. I was there until the night time yet. Brooke 38:42 Okay, and then did you get out after that? Or did they then move you over into jail or? Alex 38:51 I walked out on OR, our I walked out on my Own Recognizance that day. They stomped my ass into the street. They put me in a paper jumpsuit. They zip tied me and then they and they immediately lost my shoes. Like when they let me out, they kept my clothes because my clothes were evidence you see. Yeah, I mean, I just think they liked the way I smelled. But they kept my clothes. They lost my shoes and then they turned me loose. My roommate at the time, he came to get me and I was dressed like an extra from Miami Vice. I had these giant like two big pants on, like jeans and this huge like vaporwave Hawaiian shirt, and and these orange prison crocs. You know they give you these like foam sandals to wear when you're in jail. I still have those. Yeah, I use them to I use them when I shovel shit out of the barn. They're perfect. Brooke 39:56 Well, I have a person close to me who has been arrested many times comes in and pretty much every time there's some piece of something that was on him: clothing, shoes, something that was in a pocket, whatever, goes missing. Alissa 40:09 So weird. For me it was cash. Brooke 40:13 Oh. Weird. Alex 40:14 I got my cash back. I had like 30 bucks or something. I got that back. Alissa 40:19 You know what's fucked up too is some comments helped host a fundraiser for me like, a few weeks before my arrest for my legal fees for my trial that's coming up in April. And I had around 2k in cash. And i didn't realize this till recently, because I was searching every single space, and every single like drawer, and just wanted to make sure, but yeah, they when they raided my house they took all of that cash. Brooke 41:00 That is the thing that they will do. Alissa 41:02 Here's the thing, though. They didn't...It's not listed on the evidence. They stole it. Alex 41:07 Oh, that's what you call, that's what you call stealing. Alissa 41:09 They actually actually stole that cash, along with intentionally destroying my camera and equipment. Alex 41:16 That's the old piggie discount. You know, now that I'm thinking about that day in particular, I'm recalling that, my partner just reminded me, that at first, the cops had said to my roommates that I was being held, and they were like, talking about, like, $3,000 bail or something, like a bunch of money to get me out, but here's the thing, when they were having that conversation with them, I was already out and I was waiting to get picked up. I was just out there waiting for... But I had no phone and no money, you know, so I was just sitting there, but the cops were like, just wrong. Like either they're full of shit, or they're incompetent. Either way. So, it's like. Alissa 42:02 I mean both are true. Alex 42:06 I'm standing out there in like, you know, my prison Crocs and my shitty clothes, but I still have those clothes too. Why would I throw them away? Brooke 42:16 We should auction them off for Alissa's legal fees. Alex 42:21 God, you know, I mean, if anybody's a size 49 in pants, and a medium in shirts then absolutely. Alissa 42:31 Wow. Brooke 42:33 Excellent. Alex 42:33 Gotta love them. Brooke 42:35 You know, Alex, do I remember correctly though, that you did have to post bail at some point? Alex 42:39 See, here's the thing, when they released me on OR, the day of, they let me out that night, right. And it was like my charges were bullshit. I had like Attempted Assault II and Disorderly Conduct, or something like that. They were buccus , charges, nonsense charges, right. And I don't have a criminal record. So, they were just like, "Okay, bye." And I walked out. And then later, just before I was going to be arraigned. I got, like right before my arraignment, and this is a bit of a jump forward in this story, because a couple other weird things happened with the police like just coming to my house and unmarked cars and stuff like that. Alissa 43:25 Yeah Alex 43:26 Yeah, it was real weird. You know, Alissa, the story you told me it kind of rings a bell. But, I got a call from my public defender at the time, who, this was the night before my arraignment about a month after my first arrest. And he was like, "Hey, your charges have been altered. And some of them have been amplified, and you have new charges." And I was like, "Okay, what does that mean?" And he was like, "Well, here's the charges." And he lays them out for me. And it's like Assault II, Riot x2, like it's a it's a litany of felonies and a Measure 11 charge. And I'm like, "Okay, what does this mean?" He goes, "You're going to jail tomorrow." Yeah, and so they didn't tell him about this until like, 4:45pm just before the whole Justice Center closed the night before my arraignment the next day at like 9:15am. So I have like 16 hours to get my entire life in order to get ready for going away and having a bail of like, $25,000. And I was like, Okay, I guess this is like the story of what happens to me. Yeah, and then I was in jail. And while I was in jail, I was I was subjected to what's called a 'Secret Indictment," wherein they were bring you into a room without your attorney and hit you with new charges. And anything you say during that process can be used against you in court if you go to trial, but you don't have representation, but that's okay for some reason. And also, you're not in a courtroom, you're in a tiny room with a phone looking at a TV screen at a courtroom somewhere else in the city. And that doesn't violate Habeas Corpus, I guess? [sarcastically] And I got several new charges, two of which were also felonies. And my bail overnight became over $500,000. Alissa 45:36 [Sarcastically] This country is so cool. Alex 45:41 It was great. It was great. And I was like, "I love being an Oregonian." Yeah, I think when you when you're in jail, they don't tell you anything, you know, like, so that morning, like 4:30am some guard is like shoving me in the side with a flashlight. And I wake up like, "Ah!" you know, because I'm in jail, and I don't know anybody. And they go, "You got a meeting," I was like, "What the fuck? like, I have a meeting," you know, so they get you up, and then they strip you down and look in your butt. And then they send you out into the hall with a bunch of other dudes, and presumably, who all just had their butts locked in. So, you have at least that much in common. You're butt buddies. And then you go down the hall to this big room, and you sit in there with there was like, I think 20 men in this room, and it's just a big naked concrete room with a bench and these blistering fluorescent lights and a toilet. There's nothing between the toilet and the rest of the room. Like if you need to go, you got an audience. You know, yeah. It's your recital. And, I sat there. We all sat there for nearly two hours before anything happened. Just sit there. And you know, these dudes in there who like met and knew each other. They were like, "Yo, man, what's up?" and they're telling these hilarious stories about knife fights. And yeah, I actually, it was kind of a funny story, but it was about knives, so I don't know how funny it was. And then eventually, this guard comes in, he opens the door and I swear this is true. He says this. He goes, so he must do this every time. I'm sure of it. Right. He loves his job. He goes, "Gentlemen, welcome to the busiest courtroom in Multnomah County." And I'm like, "Courtroom? We're in a giant urinal? We're gonna latrine, dude?" So he starts...He grabs dudes two at a time. And it takes another several hours. So, we're all just sitting in this room for...we've been awake all of us since like, 4:30. By the time I go into this tiny hallway and enter a carpeted room with a TV screen and a phone in it, it's like 8. You know, I sit down, I pick up the phone, there's some attorney there and a judge. The attorney does not represent me. He is in fact a fucking prosecutor. And there's a judge who, I don't even remember the judges name, it's all my paperwork somewhere, Silver, maybe? And I got slapped with the several new charges, a couple of them felonies, one of them another Measure 11 charge. And then they gave me some paperwork. And they sent me the fuck out. And then my public defender contacted me eight hours later that night to say he just heard that that happened. Brooke 48:30 Wow. Alex 48:31 It's a good time. Brooke 48:33 Man. Some wild as shit. Alex 48:37 Yeah, right. Especially when you look at the severity of these crimes, right? It's like, I mean, I still have all the paperwork. It says right at the top, 'Secret indictment.' And I'm like, "What the blue fuck is a secret indictment?" and all it really means is they don't have to disclose it to defense before they indict you. They don't tell your lawyer. They just do it. And then your lawyer finds out at their convenience essentially. Brooke 49:01 Good. That's got to be at least a chapter title in your autobiography. Alex 49:04 Yeah, "Welcome to the Busiest Courtroom in Multnomah County." Yeah. Yeah, and my bail that that morning went from around $227,000 to over $540,000. And I was like, Well, I thought I was fucked last night. Brooke 49:28 [Joking] Now, you're the secret son of a billionaire. So you made bail just fine, right? The illegitimate boy of an heiress or something? Alex 49:41 [Laughing] All those things are true. Yeah, I may be the most interesting Antifa member there ever was. Brooke 49:49 So you laughed at that half million dollars and lit it on fire and walked out? Alex 49:54 I did. When I laughed, I didn't make a sound, just an emoji floated out over my. Everybody got it. That's how it went down. Brooke 50:06 Oh, okay, so but more seriously, you did have to post bail? And you did post bail? Alex 50:11 I did. Yes. I had to borrow a great deal of that money. And the rest of it was money that I had saved. It was my savings. So I became poor. I mean, I was already pretty poor, but I came like poor. Brooke 50:27 Okay, did you have people in your life who loaned it to you? Or, you know, how did you...How were you able to? Alex 50:33 I was able to borrow some of it from...an old friend of mine loaned me a great deal of it, actually, at no interest. So I mean, it really is who you know, I gotta tell you. And I mean, looking back, I don't know where I'd be without her, because my hearing, my sentencing hearing was three years later. I'd have been just locked up until whenever. Brooke 51:04 Yeah, if you hadn't been able to come up with bail, you would just be sitting there that whole time? Alex 51:09 [Sarcastically] I mean, you know, that's justice. Brooke 51:15 Yeah, that's how that works. Alex 51:18 It is, though, it is how that works. You know, when I was in there, I met a guy, I met...Well, I met a lot of dudes in there. But I met this one guy who had been in, just in County there, just right there, you know, in Inverness for 17 months for a DUI. Brooke 51:37 Holy cow. Alex 51:39 He was just in jail. Brooke 51:41 [Sarcastically] I mean, people who drive drunk should be in jail forever. That's my personal opinion. So that's, that's totally fine. Nothing wrong with our Justice system. That's the proper way to deal with problems. Alex 51:51 [Sarcastically] I suppose. Yeah, we can infer that from that. That sounds reasonable. Brooke 51:57 No counseling, whatsoever. Don't try and help them. Alex 52:01 No, no, helping people is not what we do. Brooke 52:03 No, not at all. Okay, moving on from that fun. So, you have both talked about having lawyers and I'm gonna flip back to Alissa here. Is your representation court appointed? Or have you been able to find a different private attorney? or what have you, to represent you? Alissa 52:25 Yeah. So, for my upcoming trial in April, I was, I was able to, you know, get, get a private attorney, and, you know, pay for retainer, and I'm super grateful for that, especially now, because for, uh, for my new bullshit that's going on, I have a public defender. And I'm very aware of, you know, the shortage right now and how spread thin that they are. And it's really unfortunate, but also, you know, from, from my perspective of like, needing help, it fucking sucks. So, I am so grateful that I was able to get those attorneys on retainer. And honestly, if it wasn't for this community, that's not something that I would have been able to do. Brooke 53:13 What do you mean by that? I asked as though I don't know the answer. Alissa 53:22 So, Antifa International was able to help me with a good portion of my retainer, and the rest of it came from fundraising from the community. And, you know, just different people in a Leftist space, different mutual aid groups, you know, boosting that fundraiser and all that, you know, that that was a huge help, you know, and it's still something that I'm raising funds for. I owe my lawyer, fuck, over $22,000 as of right now, that's a lot of fucking money that yeah...I've never seen that much money in my life. And so yeah, if it wasn't for, you know, fundraising efforts and stuff....It's, yeah, I would be fucked. Alex 54:16 Huge. Same. You know, my private representation was secured entirely by community donations. All of it. Alissa 54:24 Really incredible. Alex 54:26 Yeah, I had a public defender until we set up the GoFundMe and raised the money to get the representation who ultimately got me the deal that I did. It was just 100% Community funded. Brooke 54:43 Now, did you guys have to both put in a lot of time and work for yourselves to do the GoFundMes or have other people been a part of creating those and getting the word out there and such? Alex 54:56 I was in jail for most of that. My partner and my close friends spearheaded the handling of all that stuff. I was like, completely incapacitated. You can't do shit in jail. Everything that you need done in the outside world has to be handled by someone else. All of it. So, it was mostly my partner. And, you know...but I mean, word had sort of spread about what it happened to me. And of course, there was there was the footage and the picture. So, in a way, it was kind of a double edged sword that things had been so publicized about what had happened to me, for whatever it was I was involved in. Because people were like, "Well, fuck that." And they sent the money. And ultimately rescued me. Really, when you get right down to it. That's what, that's what happened. Alissa 55:49 That's awesome. Yeah, even though, you know, I've been out. It's been primarily other people. And for that, I could not be more grateful because just, I think people really don't realize the emotional and mental strain that this kind of thing has on people. And it's, I know, it sounds really simple and like such a minut thing, but like I, physically, mentally, emotionally just would, not am not capable of doing that on my own right now. You know, I'm able to boost stuff and make posts. But yeah, I'm definitely really grateful for the help that I've had. Alex 56:35 Yeah, I hear that, you know, It's intentional that the system is designed to crush your spirit to keep you from advocating for yourself. It's part of why they they levy these immense fines. I mean, you know, $540,000, you know, they're just like, "This guy. This is the guy," you know. Yeah. Okay. I didn't realize I was quite that dangerous to the community. But apparently, Mike Schmidt feels that way. He's my hero. Brooke 57:16 Yeah, Mike Schmidt. He's your boy. So just like we do with health care in this country., if you need to get a decent lawyer to fight bogus charges, GoFundMe. Alex 57:26 [Joking] Well like here, like don't get sick, cucks. I guess you don't deserve to be genes. Brooke 57:43 Good times, fun times. Okay, we're gonna end up running over our usual length of episode, but I'm totally okay with that. Because I feel like this conversation we're having is really interesting and important. And we're just starting to dig into some of the bigger community support aspects of it, which is, of course, what Live Like the World is Dying is all about is how we prepare as a community and live together in the end times. So Alex, you ultimately took a plea on your charges? Why? What if you hadn't? Alex 58:18 Well, so the short version of why I took the plea was my attorney said to me, "Your cases were," because I had two cases open. That's the thing. It wasn't just the bus incident. There was this other thing with some dumb ass and he's fine, right? I mean, I barely touched him. That ended up being another Measure 11 case, and the State....that was a stretch, even even by the state's own standards of like, over prosecuting. It was a bullshit case. But, had we gone to trial, having two separate Measure 11 cases open would have made me a very vulnerable defendant, and would have closed the door for me to use a certain legal avenue to avoid the mandatory minimum sentence. And Wedge felt that the prudent thing to do, would be to take a deal and he felt he could give me a pretty good deal. Partially because he felt the state's cases were actually pretty weak. And he didn't believe that the prosecution knew what they were talking about. And that ended up being true as we all saw at my sentencing hearing with my daughtering, staggering, stuttering, fool of a prosecutor tripping all over herself, and then waddling out. Disgrace. That's Nicole Herman. Shout out to you, Nicole. Loser. Brooke 1:00:02 If you hadn't taken a plea, you were facing some pretty substantial time, right? Alex 1:00:08 Potentially, yes. The fear was that if I was facing anytime, I was facing a minimum of 70 months, hard time, no access to programs, no time off, regardless of any other circumstance, stuck in prison for all that time, and that would be the minimum. I would be like 46 years old by the time I got out, all for a pair of cases with no injured parties. Brooke 1:00:43 Yike, So Alissa, on your charges that are, the trials coming up here in April, is there any chance they might offer you a plea deal on that? Alissa 1:00:59 I was actually already offered a plea deal. Brooke 1:01:01 Okay. Alissa 1:01:02 That we turned down, because it was a really shitty plea deal. They wanted me to plead guilty to everything. And do three years in jail. [Sarcastically] You're so generous, thank you! Alex 1:01:25 Oh, my God, Brooke 1:01:26 Three years because someone gave you a concussion? Great. Yeah. That's a gift with purchase. Except you didn't even purchase the thing. So, it's just bad. Do you think there's any chance? Or does your lawyer think there's a chance they'll offer you another plea deal before this thing goes to trial? Or maybe there's just no way to know? Alissa 1:01:51 Yeah, I'm really not sure now. Alex 1:01:55 It's tough to say, you know. We were certain, before the first hearing, back when I had a bunch of codefendants in one of the riot cases, which that hearing took all fucking day, by the way, because that was COVID times. We all did it through video. It was a nightmare, but also very funny. We were certain that the State was going to offer us something, anything and they were like, "No." We spent six hours on a video call and nothing happened. And I was still looking at all these charges exactly as laid out before despite the incredibly weak evidence for most of them. It's wild, you know, like, even Wedge, at the time, my attorney, he was surprised. He was like, "Nothing happened, I guess." Brooke 1:02:47 Well, yeah, civil servants, they get paid for showing up for the day. So, they don't give a fuck how much of your time it wastes. Alex 1:02:54 Yeah, well, that prosecutor, he quit his job halfway through my case. He isn't a prosecutor anymore. And he you know, I gotta be honest. Brooke 1:03:04 I'm sure that was because of you. Alex 1:03:06 Well, I like to take the credit, but he just he really had the air of a dude who was quitting his job. He didn't care at all. It's just to say, though, you never know how the State's going to behave. Brooke 1:03:22 Yeah. So, Alissa, I hate to ask this question, but what kind of time are you facing? If they don't get a they don't give you a plea deal and and they find you guilty? Alissa 1:03:36 I mean, I don't know off the top of my head. Brooke 1:03:40 I don't know if you had Measure 11 stuff in in yours or any of that? Alissa 1:03:45 I do in my most recent arrest. I'm facing six extremely bullshit felony, but all felony charges, including one Measure 11 Charge. Yeah. But yeah, I'm trying to remember off the top of my head what the minimum is just for Felony Riot alone Brooke 1:04:08 It must be more than three years. Alex 1:04:10 Felony riot, I believe it is like three to five years. But, there's different degrees of riot. Felony riot is you know, it's bad one. I had two of them. Brooke 1:04:24 There's a lot that can happen of course in between now and then. I'm just okay. Let's just back away from the worst case scenario, because that's too depressing and awful to think of it, it's not going to happen because you're too awesome for that. So, you have the trial coming up in April. What kinds of things are you doing to get ready and how are people...You know, we already talked about the fundraising component but like, you know, I don't know, other things psychological or getting life in order in certain ways. Or you know, I don't know. You tell me. Alissa 1:05:01 Honestly, for the good amount of like, this past year, my mental health was like, complete shit. Like, I was probably in, like, the worst spot that I've been in and like a really long time. And, you know, that's for, you know, a few various reasons, you know, also a bunch of like, undealt with trauma that I hadn't confronted beforehand. But, it was really, really bad. You know, I took a pretty long break from social media. And I spent a lot of time unfortunately stressing out about, you know, impending doom. But you know, the past few months, I don't know if this is the best way to go about it or not, but I've kind of just been trying to not think about it and just kind of take things day by day and just, you know, enjoy the time that I do have. I don't I, you know, I'm not saying anything's gonna happen, but something very well might, you know, there's definitely a chance that I do go to jail. So yeah, honestly, lately, I've just been trying my best to not think about it, and just kind of enjoy the time that I do have, trying to get better at reaching out for help and asking for help when I want and need it, because that's something I've struggled with my whole life. But, you know, there's, you know, there's a community and a lot of people who have been offering their help. And, you know, it took me some time to, like, get it in my head that like, 'No, these are people that genuinely care and do want to help and be there for you. So you don't have to go through this alone'. Alex 1:06:52 Absolutely, yeah. Alissa 1:06:54 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's made a huge difference too, you know, having that mindset and taking people up on, you know, different offers and things and letting people in and letting people be there for me. Yeah, it's made a huge difference in a lot of ways, but predominantly, my mental health. Also, Lexapro. Brooke 1:07:20 Shout out SSRIs Alissa 1:07:22 I'm a huge fucking stoner too, which was like, my favorite way to decompress, but now like my pretrial conditions for this shit, I can't do any drugs or a drink alcohol, including weed, even though it's legal here, so I'm confused specifically for that one? Alex 1:07:40 Yeah. Oh, yeah. I lived that life for three years. I was forbidden from entering bars. Alissa 1:07:48 That's fucked. Alex 1:07:51 I couldn't leave the house at night. It was wild. I was like, "What was I doing? Did they bust me do a night crimes?" I don't remember that. Alissa 1:07:58 They could take the alcohol away from me. I'm not I'm not really a huge drinker. But, I need my weed. I need to taste Mary again. Alex 1:08:06 Well, I mean, how dangerous are the stoners really? Alissa 1:08:10 Apparently, very. Alex 1:08:14 You know, driving at a at a vicious 20 miles an hour...in a school zone. Brooke 1:08:23 Yeah, you know, if they just freely passed out that shit in jails, I think you'd have a much calmer chiller population that would, it would be much easier to manage Alex 1:08:34 It'd be better than the toilet wine that they were drinking where I was. I didn't try it, but I could smell it. Brooke 1:08:43 There's so much more I want to get into, that I wish we had all the time for. Yeah, the mental health component seems really important. We hear Live Like the World is Dying recently did a whole episode that was on mental health first aid. And one of the big things that got talked about on that episode was the importance of community for mental health. Which, you know, not to be all nerdy and sciency, but from a biological perspective, it makes a lot of sense, too, because we're mammals wired for community. So, I'm glad that you're able to engage with community and that people are giving you that kind of love and support and helping with your mental health in that way. Alex, if you don't mind, can I ask if....Well, I'll ask. You don't have to tell me. If you struggled with any kind of mental health, mental illness or anything around the stress of this? Alex 1:09:48 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, without a doubt. IYeah, it was very difficult. You know, the circumstances around my situation were...I mean, my pretrial conditions were pretty...They put an ankle bracelet on me. You know, it was bad. I was really suffering for a while there, you know, it was not easy. And I leaned really heavily on the people closest to me, and you know, it's taxing for everybody. And that's it. That's also by design. I mean, the State is doing it to you to, like I said before, to break your your heart, you know, that's what they want, because you'll acquiesce and you can be made an example of. And that's....it's really that simple. It's just a brutal system. And it's never clearer than when the Eye of Sauron is upon you, you know, because that's what it's like, it's like, they could do this to pretty much anybody. But, when they're doing it to you, you really get a taste of the unholy power that they wield over your life. Your whole life. Rvery aspect of it. You know, it is really wild, to just be told what's happening to you, and what might happen to you. Regardless of actual circumstance, you know, I mean, really just have to look at cases like Alissa's. If you've been following what's been going on with her. What happened to me. What I what I actually did, and how the State retaliated. It was very difficult. I did not handle it very well at times. I gotta say. And I was it was hard for me. It was hard on people close to me. For a while. Yeah, for sure. I definitely had some maladaptive problems for a little while. Alissa 1:11:54 Yeah, going off of what you said, too, about how it's done intentionally. That's something that I personally struggled with was like, on top of everything that was putting me down in regards to everything that's going on, there's like this other really weird aspect to it, where the State is actively inflicting psychological warfare, and it's like, I'm aware of these tactics. I know what they're doing. I know why they're doing it. And, I kept going through this cycle where I was like... I just felt so stupid, and I kept getting so down on myself. I'm actively aware of this. So why, why is it still affecting me? Why am I still letting it affect me? Yeah. But yeah, it's all intentional. It's all by design. Alex 1:12:55 Well, it's a science. They have it down. So, you're still going through this, and up until literally today, so was I. So I gotta tell you, I mean, just not to.... Alissa 1:13:10 No, what happened today? I want to know. Alex 1:13:13 Well, I want to get to that in a second, but first I want to say to you, when you're feeling down on yourself, when you're feeling like, "Why is this affecting me? Why is this working? I know what they're doing," it's because this is what they do. And it is a system designed around doing this and they've been doing it a long time. And you're just another victim, you know? Knowing you're being victimized doesn't remove you from victim hood, you know? And I know that's little comfort when you're really going through the thick of it. I know, I've been there. But, just remember to give yourself the space for that suffering, because if you don't, it will find other ways to come out of you when you're not ready for it, you know. You'll pay for it elsewise. Just try to make some space, you know? Alissa 1:14:12 No, no, that's that's good advice. Especially because I'm really really....sorry not to like toot my own horn or be too conceited or anything. But, I'm really good at repression. Like I'm really good. Brooke 1:14:32 Yeah, I think I hear Alex saying you can call him and talk to him, and hear all soothing his voice as he's nice to talk to. Alex, what's your good news? Alex 1:15:04 Oh right, the good news! My attorney contacted me yesterday, and told me that we have movement on the case and I have....essentially what it boils down to is my probation is being terminated two years early and I'm receiving misdemeanor treatment for the terms of the deal we made, so I will very soon here, basically as soon as we get paperwork, I will no longer be on probation and I will no longer be a felon. Alissa 1:15:35 Fuck yeah! Alex 1:15:36 Yeah, yeah. So Andy Ngo is gonna cry himself to sleep tonight on his huge me-shaped anatomically correct pillow. I'm buying guns, Andy, guns. Brooke 1:15:51 Yeah, baby. And I can bring mine to your house again. Because that's something I used to do with you. Alex 1:15:57 Yeah, totally, bring your pews-pews. [guns] Brooke 1:16:03 Oh, man. All right. So, I think I'm gonna move towards wrapping us up here. But, I do want to come back to you, Alissa, one more time. Yeah, we've talked about the the mental health support you need and the, you know, ongoing fundraisers to help pay for attorney fees. And I wondered if you would just be willing to talk one last time about any specific fundraisers you have open or if there are things coming up and certainly to tell people how they can get a hold of you, you know, find you on social medias and whatnot to you know, learn more about what's going on and to show their love and support for you, because everyone on Twitter is loving and supportive and will most certainly say nice things. Alissa 1:16:52 No, Twitter's so good, especially for mental health, for sure. Alex 1:16:56 Never been better than it is now. Alissa 1:17:02 So on Twitter, people can find me under my full name just Alissa Azar, and I'm more active on Instagram. And my handle on there is r3volutiondaddy, but the 'E' in revolution is a '3'. So, it's "r3," and then just spell out revolution Daddy. I'm also on Mastodon, but you know, if you go on to any one of those, I have the link tree in my bio, and all of my socials are posted there. I also have an active fundraiser now that's also in my bio. So you can find my fundraiser on my Twitter or my Instagram. I'm also going to be planning another fundraiser soon where some stuff will be up for sale and whatnot, but I don't have a date for any of that yet, so I'll post that on my socials once I have all that information. Alex 1:18:04 Hey, I want to sell the beta cuck armor for you. I'm gonna sell the armor. Alissa 1:18:09 There are many many interested buyers. Alex 1:18:13 It still smells like... Alissa 1:18:16 Please don't finish that sentence. Alex 1:18:19 it did it, though. No. For real, though. For real though. If you're listening and you want to look like a felon for a good cause. Brooke 1:18:34 Thanks, Alex. Appreciate you throwing some some swag in the mix there. So how can folks find you on social meds? Or do you want them to, Alex? Alex 1:18:44 No, I'm a ghost. You need a seance to reach me, these days. No, I got kicked off of Twitter when Elon Musk took over. So I'm not on Twitter anymore. I was in the first wave. It's a point of pride. I got a tattoo. So, I'm on mastodon. You can find me at betacuck4life life as usual. You know, Mastodon users, they're a lot more woke. So, people regularly tell me that my handle is problematic. And I'm like "It's a thing." You know, they don't understand what I've been through. Brooke 1:19:22 It is a very confusing handle to be to be fair. Alex 1:19:26 Well, you know, I do love explaining things. Everybody wins. Brooke 1:19:32 And y'all can find me personally on Twitter or Mastodon if you want to. OgemakweBrooke. No, I'm not going to spell my indigenous name for you, sorry. And you can find the Stranger's Collective. We are the group that publishes this wonderful podcast. We are on Instagram and Twitter @ Tangledwild. We also have a pretty dope website. Have you seen our website, Alex? Alex 1:20:04 Oh yeah, I check y'all out. Shit. We did business. Brooke 1:20:08 Aw
Episode Summary Brooke, Casandra, and Margaret talk about the war in Ukraine and how Russia is not doing great, the train derailment in East Palestine, anti trans bills, Adderall shortages and meth, the return of Big Chicken, long covid as potential auto immune disease, further bans on abortion drugs, drought, floods, earthquakes and the US's top priority: shooting million dollar missiles at balloons. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Casandra is just great and can be found at Strangers doing awesome layouts, and Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Next Episode A special episode will come out next week on March 17th on Surviving the Justice System. Transcript This Month in the Apocalypse: Feb. 2023 Brooke 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. This is the February-March installment of our segment, This Month in the Apocalypse and I'm calling it the February-March episode because we're recording in February and we're talking about February but you're going to be listening to it in March, most likely. I'm Brooke Jackson, and with me today, as usual are the quick thinking Casandra and the fast acting Margaret Killjoy. Casandra 00:38 I don't know if that's accurate. Margaret 00:42 Or at least fast talking sometimes, especially when I'm hyper. And today I'm hyper Casandra 00:46 half of what I'm going to talk about today is brain fog and how it impacts me. Brooke 00:51 Nice. Well, before we get into today's episode, we'd like to share a little something something from another one of the swiftly streaming podcasts on the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. Casandra 01:17 And we're back. Cas, Margaret, how are you feeling today? Casandra 01:51 I just had my first sip of tea. Margaret 01:55 I have been doom scrolling so hard that I didn't sleep last night because of all the anti trans legislation. So I didn't sleep enough and then I ate a protein cookie and pretended like it was food. So I'm great. Casandra 02:07 And you don't do caffeine at all. Not even tea. Margaret 02:09 No, yeah, a bunch of sugar and protein in a cookie form is my equivalent of like making me immediately hyper. Casandra 02:18 Alright. Margaret 02:19 Because I don't fuck with caffeine. I'm straight edge, except for alcohol. Brooke 02:24 Well good, you should take all that energy and tell us some things. Margaret 02:29 Oh, okay, right. I'm first. Okay, February has been a big month for the apocalypse. The Apocalypse is coming in hard with a bunch of mostly really bad shit. I think that the biggest story, or whatever, the earthquake that happened in Turkey and Syria was really fucking bad. Everyone probably already knows this. As of when I'm recording it, the death toll stands at about 50,000 people in Turkey and Syria. Those numbers are still expected to go up. And a lot of it has to do with poverty and with buildings that are not built to withstand earthquakes. This is happening in a poor region. And that is absolutely affecting everything. I don't have as much information about that to relay, but I just feel like it's like the single most...like now I'm going to talk about the fucking balloons and I hate the fucking balloons. And I want people to know that like the earthquake is more important. But on February 14th, I think, I don't remember, I wrote on February 14, but you think I'd remember that was Valentine's Day. A surveillance balloon, there's a Chinese balloon and the US shot it down. It was a really actually big balloon and it probably included some surveillance equipment. China was like, "It's civilian." The US is like, "No, it was military." I'm not stressed about it because I expect the US government is surveilling me and I don't really give a shit if some other country...whatever, I don't fucking care. It may have been capturing cell transmissions and shit over the US. But then, of course, this sets off this like massive paranoia, where everyone's like, "Balloons are trying to get us. Those Chinese balloons." And the US like scrambled.... Brooke 04:20 I always knew it was going to be balloons. I've always said it, the balloons are coming for us. Casandra 04:22 Doomsday mechanism. Margaret 04:26 I mean... Brooke 04:27 it's the balloons. Clearly. Margaret 04:30 They are creepy. Actually. This is funny, my my dad is phobic of hot air balloons. I'm sorry to reveal this about you, dad. And because he was always like, "No, they're just there. They're on the horizon. They're creepy." Like he's not afraid of being in that. He's afraid of them like on the horizon. Casandra 04:46 One of my most traumatizing childhood moments was this hot air balloon show was like going over the neighborhood and I was spinning in circles staring upward watching them as one does and forgot that my mom had a whole like row of rose bushes. And then spent the whole afternoon having like rose thorns picked out of my ass. So, that's all to say that I don't think your dad's insane. Margaret 05:10 Yeah, so the US government scrambled a bunch of fighter jets to shoot down a whole bunch of other balloons, all of which, like the government is like, "We do not believe that they are surveillance balloons, but we don't know." And the reason that they're saying we don't know is because, well one they obliterated tiny balloons with missiles. So there's like, not a lot left. There's like like half a million dollar missiles being shot at these fucking things, one of which missed. They missed a fucking balloon over Lake Huron, and then it like, fell into the lake. And they're like, "No one was harmed." And I'm like, great, I feel so fucking good that the government is shooting missiles at the US. That makes sense. And so probably those balloons are like amateur weather balloons, like people like do this, where you're like, I'm gonna get a balloon and like, put a bunch of equipment on it and send it up into the sky. And it's cool, right? And because you can like see the stuff. And so fortunately, the US government is there to protect us against amateur weather and radio fans. Brooke 06:11 You know, you know, our friends over that other podcast have been saying we should nuke the Great Lakes. So I think this was just a trial run to... Margaret 06:20 Fuck, Robert Evans is like actually the one that got them to shoot missiles. Casandra 06:24 Cancel Robert Evans. Margaret 06:25 Yep. All right. Yeah. Or he's a prophet. Brooke 06:32 That's what I was gonna say, Margaret 06:34 Speaking of Prophets, but actually, in both mench versions of that word, there was a massive disaster on February 3, in East Palestine [rhymes with Springsteen], Ohio, because it's not pronounced Palestine [rhymes with Stein], in which a train carrying a bunch of toxic shit had overheated wheel bearings, and derailed. It passed like a bunch of sensors that were like, detect overheated stuff. And then like on the last one, it was like, "Hey, you're overheating," and then it crashed. This overturned 11 Toxic cars at a...a bunch of more cars overturned, but 11 of them were full of toxic chemicals, including vinyl chloride, but also a bunch of other shit. 115,000 gallons of vinyl chloride, were let loose. And then they were like, "Slright, well, we better set the shutter on fire," I'm not actually even going to like talk shit on the fact that they set on fire. It might have been the best thing that they could do in that circumstances. There is a lot of stuff that is implying that the government and you know, Norfolk Southern and all that are like downplaying the degree to this disaster. It is a massive disaster, it is a big fucking deal. And the people involved should be held accountable. And there's like, all kinds of stuff about how a lot of the deregulation and of course, you know, the fact doesn't help that Biden like stopped a railroad strike for better safety conditions, because that's mostly huge part of what people are striking for. And they absolutely are like, the numbers are trending upwards. They're like, "It's not a big deal." And they were like, "Hey, there's a bunch of dead fish." And people were like, "There are 4000 dead fish." And they had a very specific number. It might not have been that number was like 300, 800, 3,850, or something. As of this morning, when I double checked, they're up to 43,000 dead aquatic animals. That's 10 times the previous claim. I understand why people are skeptical of these claims. They're probably not forever chemicals. These are the sorts of chemicals that will break down. However, no one knows the long term effects of the exposure that people have already had to these chemicals. And it's fucked up. Norfolk Southern stock has dropped, but not as precipitously as you would might like. It's not even as low as it was last October, just like took a dip. So buy the dip, everyone go out and buy....don't do this. Don't go out and buy stock. Okay, that's what I know about that. Other people might know more about it. Casandra 08:56 Oh, I was just gonna say that.... Margaret 08:57 Next. Okay go ahead. Casandra 08:58 I was just gonan say that the EPA seemed pretty like, firm with them, which I appreciated. It wasn't the response I expected. Oh, were you wagging your finger at me? Or like...they were like. Brooke 09:12 I was being the EPA. Yeah. Because we're in a point of visual medium here, right with a podcast. So, everyone can see me doing that. Casandra 09:19 I watched the recording and the guy was like, "If y'all don't do this up to our standards, we will do it and then bill you and not just like, you'll get the bill, but we'll bill you a certain number of times the amount that it actually cost us as a penalty." Yeah, it's something I don't know. Margaret 09:37 I mean, that's good. Yeah. Oh and then the other thing, when I when I lead with the transition of Prophets in both sense of the word. About a week before this disaster, I watched the Netflix movie "White Noise" based on the 1980s novel called "White Noise," in which a toxic chemical train spill it In East Palestine, Ohio happens and fucks everything up. And it fucks with my head, just straight up. It fucks with my head that I watched a movie about a natural disaster and then... not a natural disaster, a manmade disaster. And then a week later, it happened in the same town of 5000 Fucking people. Or 4000 people. Casandra 10:20 Maybe, you're not a prophet, maybe actually. Your brain just determines all of reality. Margaret 10:29 Oh, no, I'm not a prophet. No, no, no, no, I don't think this is me. Casandra 10:31 I think that what happens in your head is then what happens in the outside world. That's more plausible. Brooke 10:39 Yeah, that seems right. Casandra 10:40 So, don't think anything.... Margaret 10:42 This is a really good thing to tell someone who lives alone. Brooke 10:46 I mean, it clearly anyone who reaches a certain level of podcasting, fame then develops a power to cause things to happen. Yeah, that's what we're saying here. Margaret 10:57 Good to know. And then everyone lived in a happy anarchist society for all times in which everyone was equal, except Margaret was a little bit more equal and got like twice as much tea in the morning. Casandra 11:06 You don't like tea. We just went over this. Margaret 11:10 Yeah, well, I shouldn't have more of something I want. That would be fucked up. Casandra 11:14 This is the like weirdest Catholic version of anarchist Utopia I've ever heard of. Margaret 11:23 Hi, I'm Margaret Killjoy. Alright, so it's speaking of other bad shit that happened this year, or actually, well, okay. The thing that happened in February is is the one year anniversary of the Ukraine war. As currently stands, it's fallen out of the news, which means that no one is dying anymore, and everything is fine. Except that... Brooke 11:47 PBS still does it. So to just throw a tiny amount of credit over there. But yeah... Margaret 11:54 Yeah, well actually it's funny because people will talk mad shit about mainstream news and for good reason. But like, overall, I think mainstream news is a little bit better of a job than like Twitter at like, staying attached to stories over time, rather than just like chasing the clicks, which is fucking saying something because that is what mainstream news was notoriously bad at. I just think social media is even worse at it. On the other hand, it's not the job of the random Twitter person to....Okay, so, the Ukraine war is largely out of stalemate. As stands Russia holds 17% of Ukraine, an area twice the size of Italy. It's less than they controlled at the beginning of the war by a decent amount, and specifically, almost all their holdings are in the east. And it's been like slowly being chipped away at overall is kind of the general thing. Most foreign fighters left after a few months, it went down, there's 20,000 foreign fighters, mostly like vets of various other countries who are like, "Well fuck an invasion." And a lot of people were like, I think actually a lot of people were like, "Well, I fought in all of these like evil US wars, because they have like worked for the US government. Here's a just war," and people went like chasing a just war, right. It's down from about 20,000 foreign fighters to 2000 foreign fighters as the war drags on. China is calling for peace talks right now. And more might have happened by the time you hear this, like this is like news from yesterday and today, and their position is...like I mean overall they're trying to present themselves as neutral, but like overall they're like, "This is a war of Western aggression." You know? "This is a war of you know a Ukraine shouldn't dress like that if it didn't want to get attacked." They've four times abstained....Thank you for laughing at my off color joke. And yeah, I mean, because that is what it comes down to this idea of like, we had to invade you because you are getting too close to our borders with your power or whatever. Like, you can't fucking justify invading another country for that reason. Casandra 14:03 They're opposing US imperialism, Margaret. Margaret 14:06 Yeah, they do. Casandra 14:07 NATO! Margaret 14:10 Yeah. Yeah. And that's China's position. They're with the US tankies. Or rather US tankies are with them. They have four times abstained from voting in the UN votes to ask Russia to withdraw its troops it's possible also that China's like trying to get in....and this is like everyone. This is the actual imperialism from my point of view about all this is everyone calling for these peace talks a lot of it is that they're like they want in on the economic reconstruction aka they want like their economic interest in the capitalism to to do their thing just to China it's slightly more state capitalism in the US it's slightly more.. Casandra 14:46 China's not capitalist Margaret What are you talking about? Margaret 14:48 Oh, right. Sorry. I Forgot. They want to bring their peoples army... and I Love that It's like the tankies pretending that Russia is fucking commie...anyway. The number of Russian soldiers Ukraine is killing is going up, which, you know, whatever, fuck them. 824 Such Russian soldiers a day are dying in Ukraine in February, which is the highest rate since the invasion started. Between 180,000 and 270,000 Russians have died in the war in the past year. And for comparison, Russia is this huge place. And we think about like how Russia just like, bled people during World War II, you know. Russia is only half the population of the United States. And so this is...so when you think about percentage wise, if you think about, it's like, you know, the equivalent of half a million people dying in one year in a dumb fucking war. About 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers have died. They claim that 13,000 of their soldiers have died. Vaguely neutral observers from the outside of claims that 100,000 have died, which is like, their, their like, kill rate, oh, God, I'm not even going to pretend to put this in video game terms. That's fucked up. And also another 30,000 or so civilians, Ukrainian civilians have died. Like directly, tons more displace. Everything's fucked up. It's war. I haven't been able to get a recent number for the total number of arrests in Russia. But, it's like worth really understanding how much a lot of Russians do fucking not want this to happen. There were 15,000 people arrested protesting against the war and like the first month of the war alone, and there's thousands more at various other times, but I wasn't able to find a total count. And, you know, in case anyone needs any reminding that nationalism is garbage. between half a million and a million Russians have fled, rather than be conscripted and fight in this stupid fucking bullshit. And 200 or so Russians are actively fighting for Ukraine. There is no out good outside guests. That is a guess from one of these Russian fighters. And they all have different reasons. I am aware of their being Russian anarchists. I was not able to find more information about that. Most of the anarchists that I know from other countries I think are more involved in directing solidarity goods, except for Belarus.. A lot of anarchists fighters in Ukraine. Anyway, of the 200 or so fighters, the the one I was able to find the specific motive for he's is doing as his Christian duty to stop invasions. And let's see, okay, almost done with the Russian war thing. Dutch intelligence reports that Russia is mapping power and gas infrastructure in the North Sea for potential attack. This came out like yesterday. So who knows what will happen with that. And then it's also kind of worth knowing there's like all of these, like anti war rallies happening around the war around the world. And most of them are like about trying to stop the Russian invasion of Ukraine, right? They're like, "Hey, this war is fucked up, aka Russia is fucked up." But in the US, we get a different kind of anti war movement, we get an anti war movement that's a weird collection of tankies and Nazis... Casandra 18:20 Margaret, that never happened! Margaret 18:21 ...coming together like a Molotov-Ribbontrop Pact to say stop the war machine. Casandra 18:28 Stalin is the whole reason..... Margaret 18:34 Yeah, no, I know. Casandra 18:38 The reason the Nazis were defeated soley was because of Stalin, therefore, you know, the Soviet Union never never ever could have allied with the Nazis, even though we have historical records that it did blah, blah. Margaret 18:53 Yeah, like at the beginning, Russia was like, "Hey, allies, can we hang out with you, Germany's looking real weird." And the allies were like, "I'm not sure." And so then Russia was like or USSR was like, "Hey, Nazis, can we hang out with you? We know bad shits about to happen," and they were like, "Yeah, but totally," and the USSR sent them tons of aid, just literal material, tons of aid. And collectively, they mapped out which countries they were going to invade together and they invaded Poland together...It's Poland. Am I getting that right? And then, Germany was like "JK, surprise attack." And then the USSR was like, "Okay, we're against you." And then fucking millions of Russians died to defeat the Nazis and that needs to be understood and respected. But like Stalin was like making them...there's like, reports from survivors...This is totally what this episode is about. There's like reports from survivors who were like forced to charge Nazi tanks bare handed. And so like, the high numbers of Russian dead wasn't because Stalin ruled. The high numbers is because Stalin fucking sucks. Anyway. Casandra 20:08 And there's also the whole like, the line that like the USSR saved with the Jews or whatever, when, which was just like totally. Anyway, we won't talk about how Jews were treated in the USSR. Margaret 20:23 When they signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact....Yeah. Anyway, USSR is not modern Russia, but there's an anti war movement. So that's okay. That's Ukraine. Now, the trans laws, the thing that has me up all night. Yesterday, I believe the Tennessee House passed a bill. And now this was misrepresented. And I accidentally misrepresented this too, because I trusted a Twitterer who trusted a news article from a mainstream source that, okay, a Tennessee House did pass this bill. And by the time you're listening to this, probably their fucking Senate and Governor have signed off on it. But the article was like, "And now it goes up to the governor." It doesn't it goes to the Senate first. And a lot of really shitty laws passed the House, but not the Senate in like, any given place. So there's like, still hope. But I'm not full of fucking hope because a lot of these types of laws are passing right now. The type of law I'm talking about, this is an anti drag law. And these anti drag laws are similar ones proposed around the country and all the details are a little bit different. But the overall idea is that if anyone who is a male or female impersonator, AKA a crossdresser, aka, me living my fucking life, or a drag performer, if they perform, and if it's like, in any way, like...some places it's just like literally if they perform, or exist in public, and another one's the Tennessee laws a little bit like, and they perform in a way that has any kind of like, sexual titillation, or whatever then that has to be the venue that is now a strip club legally, or like, needs to be a like 18+ adult entertainment, cabaret or whatever the fuck Casandra 22:15 Like who's deciding if something's sexual? Margaret 22:19 Uh huh. And it is. First cops, then judges, Two groups I trust to the bottom of my....nothing. Margaret 22:35 Or the parents who call the cops. Brooke 22:41 Don't forget about he mob. Margaret 22:42 Yeah, no, totally. They're the first step in it. So that is the literal criminal criminalization of being trans in public. Casandra 22:45 Yeah, there are nine anti trans laws on the books right now in Oregon. Yeah. Margaret 22:52 Yeah. There's 14 other states with similar anti drag laws in the works, including Oklahoma, Texas, Arizona, and Idaho. And I just didn't find the full list, I found people like a couple different places giving like short versions of the list. South Dakota did just pass a law like not just the house or whatever, but like it's fucking signed, that forces trans youth to detransition. And Utah passed a law against trans youth also, very recently, or against allowing trans youth to transition. But, I don't believe it forcibly detransitioned. I believe that this one in South Dakota is the first one to force detransition, which from my point of view, pretty much means that trans...families with trans children who can't afford to move are going to have their trans kids run away or kill themselves. Just like, frankly, I am not recommending. I am recommending if you're a trans youth to in a place that is affected by this to get in touch with community to try and help you and your family get out of that situation. That is what I'm directly recommending. But, the the reason that doctors believe in gender affirming care for trans youth is that it lowers the rates of death substantially. Oklahoma is currently considering a bill to ban gender affirming care to adults, anyone under the age of 26. Brooke 24:22 Fucking Oklahoma. Casandra 24:22 I can't remember which bill i was reading, but I was reading about one that was worded in such a way where gender affirming care also ended up including things like hormones for ciswomen dealing with menopause, like it was so broad sweeping that like, I just don't think people consider the broader implications. You know what I mean? Margaret 24:41 I don't know whether this one was that one, but I...it wouldn't surprise me and I feel like people pass laws like that all the time. And then just like, no one's going to actually stop cis women from accessing hormones from menopause, you know, or like, you know, people dealing with prostate cancer often take hormones and you know, testosterone blockers and things like that, and like...All the shit is overbroad, like crazy, but not in a way where I feel like oh, it's overbroad, and it gets struck down like no, it's gonna get targetedly used against trans people against, the Left. And 5% of US people in the US who are under the age of 25 identify as trans or like nonbinary in some way, compared to point .5% of the rest of the population as a whole. And I would like to...don't make me tap of the sign of the that graph of chart of left handedness as a chart of left handedness. Like once they stopeed. Once they started letting people be left handed, it goes up and caps itself, you know. And every major medical association in America recognizes that gender affirming care for youth saves lives. That is not a...I assume everyone listening to this already knows the shit, but it's like worth fucking knowing. This is not a like, medically contested issue. You know, this is like, and I'm not like, "Man, you know, who I trust immediately, the medical institution, they always have our backs." But, they do in this case, because they're not fucking... Oh, God. That's what I've got to talk about this week. Brooke 26:20 Jon Stewart did a good piece that was on gender affirming care that maybe everyone's already seen, because it was a little while ago, but was, you know, citing those...Just what you're exactly what you're saying, Margaret about every every major medical organization in the US. Margaret 26:38 And honestly has been one of the only cispeople I've seen talking about it in public. The silence from cispeople has been deafening. And if your cis and listening to this, I'm hoping that if you've been silent about it, I'm hoping that the reason you've been silent about it, is because you're afraid of taking up too much of the conversation. Because we do have this way of talking about social issues right now, where people are afraid to talk about issues that don't directly affect them. And I think that that is a misstep. And that it will take cis people talking about this angrily, before anything will change. Because, when it's just trans people, and sometimes their immediate families who are showing up to protest, everyone's going to be like, "Well, fuck those pedo whatever," fuck, whatever. Fucking bullshit, you know. So from my point of view, part of the reason this keeps me up at night is not because the Nazis want to kill me, they've wanted to kill me for a long time, they've sent me letters to this effect, with like, my parents address in it, you know, it's that when I don't feel supported, is when I feel the most lost about all of this stuff, just frankly. And so sometimes like that support is like, like, "Margaret's guide to being supportive to your trans friends," is like, like, sometimes, like random people messaging me to be like, "I see you, you're valid." I'm like, that's great. I don't I don't need that from strangers. What I need from strangers is for people to talk to the people, they're around and say shit about this, you know, I have a, I know I'm valid. I have a supportive family. And I have a supportive network of friends and all of that, you know? Yeah, sorry, this is...I mean, all of these things that we're going to talk about are big deals. But you know, this one affects me very directly. Brooke 28:45 Oh, no, I appreciate you saying more about it, because I was gonna ask follow up questions about like, you know, showing support and good ways to do that. So thanks for talking about that. Margaret 28:55 Be fucking angry. Like, you know, and it's like, and this stuff like, it's also all part of misogyny. Like, because people want to control people's bodies. And so transmen are affected by this because they're, like, leaving womanhood behind and that's bad or whatever. And then of course, transwomen are like, the reason that people don't want us to exist is a weird protect the women thing, right? And so like, when cis women are loudly like, "No, I would rather have this transwoman in the bathroom with me then like I don't know someone who's like peeking under stalls to make sure no one has a penis." Like people being loud about that kind of support. There's this brilliant video of thus person who I believe is a cis woman who's like getting gender policed by a Karen in a bathroom. Casandra 29:47 I saw that Margaret 29:48 And refuses to answer whether or not she has a dick. Yeah, it fucking...that gives me hope. So, I like. Casandra 30:00 That's like reverse Karen. Brooke 30:02 I just bookmarked that so I can watch it after Casandra 30:05 We should start a Nazis know our parents' address club. Margaret 30:17 And then like...it's funny I try not to talk too much about my family on this podcast, I guess, but then again the Nazis already know where they live. Like my dad's fucking ex marine with anger management issue who loves this trans daughter? How's do they think this is gonnna go? Casandra 30:35 I mean, my situation, my parent's would've been like "Whatever." Margaret 30:41 Yeah, okay, fair. I'm sorry. Casandra 30:43 Okay, who's next? Brooke 30:48 Okay. Can we talk about happier things? Margaret 30:54 What podcast are on? Casandra 30:57 I genuinely can't remember who's next. Is it you, Brooke? Brooke 31:03 Allegedly. Although, if it's something you have segues better for, I'm all for it. I had a good segue from the war thing. But then we then we start talking about the trans issue and I don't know where to go from there. Casandra 31:13 I think the world is shit. There are lots of them. They're diverse, shitty things to talk about, you know? Margaret 31:18 Well, and even the war thing, it's like, you know, what, Ukraine is fucking holding on a year later. That is a fucking positive story. It is a terrible, horrible story. But they're still fucking there. You know, like people thought Ukraine wasn't going to be a country by last summer. Brooke 31:36 That's a really good point. Well, speaking of war, wars, the war on drugs. Drugs. Adderall. I did it you're welcome. We did a, I think our August episode or something like that we did a roundup on like shortages, things that were in shortages. And I know we talked about Adderall at one point and being in shortage and why. And that started like last summer sometime I think August or so it was when people started talking about it. The FDA or DEA, I can't remember which one it was that came out with the announcement. I think the the FDA came out like late October and said, "Hey, we have an Adderall shortage." And everyone said, "We fucking know we've been dealing with with this for two or three months now." And it's gotten worse than it's been in the news again, recently, because of just how much worse it has gotten. We talked about it previously, we talked about some of the reasons why the shortage was happening. And part of it is a production issue. It's a very controlled substance. So, it's not like manufacturers can just start pumping out a whole bunch more. And not just like the creation of the Adderall. But the ingredients that go into it are controlled substances as well, so they can only make so much of that. Allegedly, there's enough supply of the base ingredients that we shouldn't have this shortage. So.... Casandra 33:10 Sorry, I'm stupid about Adderall, is it it because meth. Is that the....? Okay, sorry. Brooke 33:18 That's where I'm going with this, but yeah, that's that is that. That is part of the reason it's such a controlled substance, because Amphetamine is, you know, main ingredient, it's it's people often refer to Adderall as being, you know, legal meth, or prescribed meth. Casandra 33:33 I know nothing. Wow. That's wild. Brooke 33:42 So, there have been some reports of folks that haven't been able to get their Adderall and have, in fact, turned to meth in order to get the substance they need, and there's not a good sense of how like widespread this is, versus, you know, a couple of instances that hit the news, you know, there's at least one story of somebody who died in an ER, because of meth. And they said they were taking the math because they couldn't get their Adderall prescription. And, you know, meth, you know, historically causes no problems to the brain and doesn't make people say things that are wacky and untrue. So we can trust that story. But, that's what's happening. But, the fun conspiracy theorh where I'm going with this that's floating around is that the government is purposely restricting the manufacture of Adderall to force people to turn to meth to perpetuate the war on drugs. So there you go. Conspiracy theories are fun. Margaret 34:43 Wait, So this is a new conspiracy. Okay. How the balloons tie in? Casandra 34:48 Yeah. Margaret 34:49 Is that where moving it? They're getting the Adderall out of the country? Casandra 34:52 They're delivering it. If we would have let them come in farther, they would have just released it because everyone wants Adderall. Margaret 34:58 Oh, yeah. That's sort of true...the part where everyone wants Adderal. Casandra 35:03 I do not. Margaret 35:06 Yeah. No, I don't want Adderall. I'm hyper off a cookie. Brooke 35:12 That's part of the issue is that the prescriptions for Adderall increased 27%. From 2019 to 2022. There were like 35 million prescriptions in the US, which is a fuck ton, in 2019. And then it went up to like 45 million by 2021 or 22. And I mean, shocker. Everybody's stuck inside with a pandemic. Like we overprescribed, that are all for sure. And I and that is not to say there's not people who genuinely need it out there. And I don't mean to bash anybody's use of of that prescription. But you know, one of the articles that I was reading they, you know how news reports like to pick a human interest story to tell their story, they were talking about this 16 year old female in Utah, who's like in all of the AP classes, honors classes is getting ready for college and how stressed out she was and obsessed with perfection, and she couldn't get all her stuff done. And then she got an Adderall prescription. And, and now she's able to get all her homework done, and she's acing all their classes, and it's ready for college and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, you just gave her gave her amphetamines. Casandra 36:36 I feel like there's a misuse potential. Like, the people I know, who have ADHD and take Adderall, it doesn't impact their system that way, you know. And I also think there's a certain, I see this with autism as well, there's a certain amount of like, like the left handed thing that Margaret brought up, you know? Like, it might seem like, it might seem like an undue spike, but I'm sure a large percentage of that is people who are finally getting care they need. Margaret 37:12 And then also, like, I think about it because I came closer to seeking medication for ADHD than I ever have. And what it was for me is that I built my entire life around the fact that I have ADHD, there's a reason that I'm a freelancer, there's a reason that I, you know, I travel, there's a reason I work for myself. Like, there's all these things that I've done, that have made ADHD not a problem in my life, right. But actually, the beginning of the pandemic, it made it more of a problem. It made it harder for me because like, I had to sit in my cabin and work on a computer in order to eat food, and stuff, you know, and so like, and I don't thrive in certain environments, and so I was like, "Man, if I had something that helped me thrive in this environment." So. Casandra 37:56 Which then makes me wonder, like, how much of that need is attached to Capitalism, you know, lthe ike productivity. So? Yeah. Margaret 38:04 Oh, yeah. No, totally. I mean. Totally. I had a day job for a minute. Casandra 38:10 Sitting in a cabin alone with....That sounds like my dream. Margaret 38:16 I know. Well, I was fine until the day job. Awesome. Margaret 38:24 Okay, so, Brooke 38:25 Again, I don't want to like bash anybody that's taking it. I don't know. I don't want to say that there aren't legitimate reasons that some of those people didn't need it. But, we we do know that it's overprescribed, that you take you know, young people who are high achieving, and we've got them overscheduled and fucking Capitalism. Casandra 38:41 Oh, everyone, I knew in college was....Adderall all the time. Brooke 38:46 Yeah, just give them drugs. So, that's part of the problem. Anyway, the DEA is trying to get you addicted to meth. x Casandra 38:59 I thought it was the FDA. Margaret 39:02 And that's why they're shooting down balloons. Brooke 39:06 No, it's the DEA because that's the Drug Enforcement Agency. They're the ones trying to perpetuate the war on drugs and they have something to do. Casandra 39:14 I hope people know when we are and aren't being sarcastic. Margaret 39:22 I hope so too. But I'm not optimistic. Brooke 39:27 Never take me seriously. That's my answer. I have one other fun conspiracy theory thing. Okay, it actually came up right after the end of our last recording and it was kind of a bummer. We didn't get it in there. But, it's about chicken feed. Casandra 39:46 Big Chicken! Brooke 39:47 And chicken feed conspiracy, that something is....Yep, Big Chicken. Not and not Tyson. Not that evil chicken, but it's actually a big big fooder you may have heard of this brand called Purina? Casandra 40:01 Dog food. Brooke 40:02 Are pretty well known for creating pet food. Yeah. Margaret 40:05 They feed cats. Brooke 40:06 But they also make more industrial feeds like chicken feed and guinea pigs and goats and I don't even know the full extent of their thing, but they make feed for a lot of different kinds of animals. And people started reporting in July last year that their chickens and this is industrial level and you know, household people chicken in the backyard kind of people, crazies like me that their their egg laying productions seem to be going down. And then going through the winter, a lot of a lot of people have talked about their eggs production from their chickens being at or very near zero, which I also have been in this boat for a while my my four girls were not laying any eggs. And it wasn't an old chicken issue, like they're, they're young, and they just started laying this last summer. And yes, production goes down in the winter, that's normal, but doesn't usually just completely drop off. So, people were posting about it on social medias and talking about it and started forming this conspiracy that there's something wrong with chicken feed, Purina mainly because they're one of the biggest suppliers not just under their name brand, but their sub brands as well. And that something is missing in the chicken feed that's causing them not to lay as well. And then lots people saying "I switched to another brand, I started mixing my own," blah, blah, blah. "And suddenly my my chickens are laying again." And as much as I hate conspiracy theories and don't want to feed into it, I have to say that I also was having the same issue of zero egg production. And then I grabbed a protein blend from a different brand and started mixing that into their feed and getting eggs. Margaret 41:49 That doesn't have to be a conspiracy. They could have just fucked up. Casandra 41:51 Honestly, people have reported that they've had their feet tested. They've had their Purina tested and it contains the appropriate amount of protein. So there's like, at this point a month later....I'm sorry, I was the one who brought this up because I was I raise quail. And so I'm on, I don't know, poultry, social media. Yeah. Anyway. But yeah, so apparently people have gotten their feed tested, and it has the appropriate components, so now they're like, "Is there something added to it?" That's the new conspiracy. Margaret 42:27 Well, I know what, I know what the problem is. Brooke 42:29 Morgaret has the answer. Casandra 42:32 Okay, good. Margaret 42:32 Yeah, I watched this....No, it's not gonna be the answer. No, I watched this documentary called All Quiet on the Western Front on Netflix last night. And in it, the Imperial German soldiers, while they're occupied France during World War One, there's they're breaking into farmers yards and stealing the eggs. And so it's actually. It's actually Imperial German soldiers are breaking into everyone's yards and stealing quail eggs and chicken eggs. Brooke 43:10 Oh, okay. Casandra 43:12 Obvious. Brooke 43:12 There are a lot of other factors that genuinely influence chicken, like production, like the amount of light and the temperature. And, you know, our light levels are not particularly off. They're low this time of year, like always, but it definitely has been a little bit colder on average this winter here for us, though. My mother...Hi, Mom, I love you was like you need to put a heating light on your chickens and they'll lay more which I did for a month and it didn't affect anything. Although that was also after one of those snows that we had too. Casandra 43:44 Can I telll you one of the more wingnut versions of this I've heard? Brooke 43:47 Yes, please. Casandra 43:48 And who knows. But, the most like, you know, puppet master version of all of this I've heard is that Purina partnered with some giant egg company that I can't remember the name of right now, who just opened a whole bunch of, starting last fall open several massive like egg production facilities. So, it's in Purina's best interest to add something to the feed so that our chickens can't lay eggs. And that's why egg prices are through the roof. And now you have to buy the eggs and it's just ohhhh. Yeah. Brooke 44:26 Yeah, that's the other thing that's feeding into the conspiracy theories I was gonna wrap this up with. Brooke 44:29 Sorry. I'm taking... Brooke 44:30 No, you're fine. It's perfect. Perfect segue. Excellent. Yeah. Is the prices going up on eggs is all feeding into conspiracy and you know, people not thinking about food prices in general have gone up and we feed chickens food things. And yeah, anyway, what Margaret? Margaret 44:48 Oh, just there's some, I was reading today, that there's some guesses that we might have hit peak food inflation, specifically around eggs and meat. Because basically, no one can get enough money...because you can't sell eggs at a certain...the way cap, the market works, you know, you can't sell it at a certain amount, so fewer sell or whatever. And so wholesale egg prices have started dropping. And as of when the article I read came out this had not yet hit retail egg prices. Because people probably are like, Well, alright, I can buy them for cheap and sell them for just as much Fuck yeah. But wholesale egg prices are starting to drop and meat prices are also starting to drop on a wholesale level, because inflation reduced the profit. Brooke 45:39 Okay. Well, the one upside, so that's sorry..... Casandra 45:48 I think there's something about Purina feed, and we don't know what and that's fine. And that people seem to be switching feeds or making their own and it's fine. I mean, there might be but like, I don't really care personally, I'm like, I just want my quails to lay eggs. Margaret 46:07 And it's just not a conspiracy. They're just fucked up their food. Brooke 46:09 Right. Yeah, there's other complicating factors. It's not maybe not just this one thing. Like, yeah, you know, we hear where Cas and I live have had a colder little bit colder winter than average and that'll slow down production. I don't know for the US as an entirety but you know, just an example. Margaret 46:25 Well, there's there's that saying "Never never attribute to incompetence. What can be understood..." No, wait. I know something isn't...It's Goddamnit "It's not malice. It's incompetence." It's more likely that it is incompetence than malice at any given thing that's happening. Casandra 46:49 I mean, yeah, it's like very experienced people who are having this issue, like there's something, there's something wrong, right? Margaret 47:05 Oh, that's what I mean about...sorry, I don't mean incompetence of the chicken keepers. The chicken lords. Brooke 47:10 That is what we call ourselves, Margaret, chicken lords. Margaret 47:12 I mean, the incompetence of Purina. The...like Purina fucking up the feed is probably because they fucked up the feed, not cause they're like, "hahaha." Brooke 47:25 I mean, it's entirely possible Purina switched to cheaper, lower quality components to create their feeds because of inflation. Casandra 47:31 It's not incompetence if it's a giant company. Yeah. Brooke 47:35 There's something in that. The one upside of.... Casandra 47:40 Root cause. Okay. Yeah. Brooke 47:42 There you go. Nice. Margaret 47:44 Yeah, it might be greed instead of malice. Brooke 47:45 Let me just say the happy thing. Margaret 47:46 What's the happy thing? What's the happy thing? Brooke 47:50 Is that people have turned to other feed sources. So, instead of supporting the big giant mega Corp, they're supporting smaller ones, like I reached out to a local person who's making their own blends. And I'm going to start using some of that. People have learned how to create their own blends and feed their things, which I think it's always great to get away from the industrial manufacturers. So... Casandra 48:11 I don't know how to jump from chickens to this.... Brooke 48:17 Chickens. Avian Flu. Flu. Sickness. Bad. Long COVID. Casandra 48:24 I raised quail because I'm allergic to chicken eggs, cause autoimmune disease. Did you know long COVID is kind of like an autoimmune disease? Brooke 48:32 Nice. Casandra 48:35 Do either of you know anyone with long covid? Brooke 48:37 Yes. Margaret 48:39 Yeah, part of the reason I don't leave the house, not because I have it, but because I'm terrified. I mean, I'm making rational decisions around safety. Brooke 48:48 I'm worried I'm having it. Casandra 48:52 Oh, well, maybe maybe this will be easier. When I when I first heard about it. So, some of the symptoms I've heard include fatigue, brain fog, difficulty breathing, joint pain, chest pain, general like lower quality of life, gut issues. When I hear that list, I'm like, oh, that's, that sounds like my autoimmune disease. And sure enough, they're realizing that long COVID does have a lot in common with an autoimmune disease. I don't think they're classifying it that way. At this point, like the research is ongoing, but it's just really interesting to me. So apparently, something like 11% of people who get COVID-19 will have long COVID, which lets you one study in "Nature," I read said up to 65 million people are suffering from on COVID, which is apparently a 10th of the number of people worldwide who have had COVID. So , 1 in 10 people is kind of a lot. Yeah. And suddenly, you know, folks at the beginning of COVID, who were calling it, a mass disabling event make a lot more sense. Brooke 50:01 Yeah. Casandra 50:05 This is terrible and funny. I read a tweet where someone said "People went on about herd immunity. But now we have heard autoimmunity." Brooke 50:12 Oh, it's funny and awful Casandra 50:17 It is. Sorry, I'm laughing at that because I have an autoimmune disease. I think I should offer that context. So, populations impacted: Apparently 4% of folks with long COVID are under 12. Aside from that about a third are people under 50. Another third are 50 to 60. And then another third are people above 65. So it is impacting people who are our age. Brooke 50:44 You can't have three thirds and four percent. Casandra 50:47 I said, in addition to that. Or after that. Brooke 50:51 Okay, sorry. Math. Just slap me. Casandra 50:53 I read so many studies to cobble this all together. Don't judge my numbers. It's more...I say that to bookkeeper. It's more predominant in transgender folks and women, which is also true of autoimmune diseases. 75% of people with long COVID where never hospitalized. 75% of those people have not sought medical help for long COVID. And there's also an assumption that a lot of these numbers are actually higher, because we all know how reporting has gone down in and how healthcare is expensive. And if people don't have to go to a hospital or a doctor, they won't, you know. Brooke 51:35 Is there anyone out there that still saying long COVID doesn't exist? Not like the you know, extremists but like, mainstream for a while was like long COVID is made up? It's not actually happening. Is that still a common thought? Or is that finally going away? Casandra 51:50 I don't know how common it...so this is all really curious to me because I have an autoimmune disease and because last month, January 2023, two different studies came out about Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, which I also have, and how it increases the likelihood of long COVID. And when that study came out, I started to see a bunch of people talking about long COVID and low dose Naltrexone being a useful approach, which is a medication I take, which I cannot get prescribed by a regular doctor. Because they deny that it's a useful immunomodulator. Like remedy. And that's all to say that like, I think I'm hypersensitive to the disbelief around these things. And one of the reasons this if fascinating to me. Yeah, one of the reasons this is fascinating to me, is because it's opening up these conversations about these diseases that patients have been talking about for years, and have not historically been believed. Margaret 52:56 Often as a symptom of misogyny, right? Casandra 53:01 Yeah, Totally. I don't know anyone who has, you know, something in the spectrum of chronic illness who hasn't gone through, like literally years of doctor saying it "Doesn't exist," or "You don't have it." Or "It's not that bad." Like, I had to call my doctor and inform her of what I had, like, based on my labs, because she didn't tell me. And so now there's this like, sped up process around long COVID, right, where like, so many people are getting sick all at once that like, there was the disbelief and other people downplaying it. But like, research is catching up at a faster rate, it seems like, which has implications for the broader community, which could be positive. Even though it sucks that how many, how many millions. 65 million people.... Margaret 53:52 Well, it's like mRNA caccines, like, it's fucking cool, that we're suddenly able to get vaccinated for so many more things than we used to. And it is absolutely fucked that it took this...It took so many people getting this before people were like, "Oh, maybe it's just not like the modern version of hysteria," the whiny woman disease or whatever, you know. Casandra 54:20 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think there's....up until very recently, if you walked into a doctor and were like, even if you had a what's the word I'm looking for, not a prescription when they tell you what your... a diagnosis, from a previous doctor saying "I have chronic fatigue," or whatever. It's highly likely that your new doctor will say that doesn't exist. But now, suddenly, the only word...it's like the only words that they have to describe long COVID are these words like chronic fatigue and autoimmune disease? So, suddenly they have to like view them as legitimate. But studies are coming out in these like, major scientific journals like "Nature." "JANA," what's the other one? I was reading? Whatever, science. So people are taking it seriously. And that's, not exciting because I wish it didn't exist at all, but is good. Brooke 55:27 Yeah, the friend that I have. Casandra 55:28 I have a whole. Oh, go ahead. Brooke 55:30 Oh, just the friend that I have that has long COVID he has faced a lot of that struggle with this belief. I think he got COVID earlier on, or at least not recently. And yeah, definitely has faced a lot of like disbelief and extra hurdles and trying to advocate for himself and get the kind of care that he needs. Casandra 55:54 Yeah. And it's, it's I think maybe people need to understand how severe it can be. Because the umbrella of long COVID, my understanding, like, you know, they're still actively defining this term, but my understanding is that it's people who have at least two symptoms, at least, I think it's two months after the acute infection goes away. But for some people that can be so debilitating that like, they need walkers, or they need you know, it's life altering. Yeah. And I read one study that said that, as many as 4 million people are unemployed, because of long covid, which is a whole other conversation around, like, what counts as a disability in this country? And what doesn't? Like I remember when I was first diagnosed with my autoimmune disease, and was way less functional than I am now. I was like, "Why? Why would I not qualify for disability?" And the answer is that there are a lot of bureaucratic reasons, apparently. But yeah, who knows, maybe that will change too. Brooke 57:04 Part of it's because...part of the bureaucracy is that they can't take away the designation once they've given it. So, they don't want to make it too easy to label you disabled, because then you don't, you don't get to go back from being disabled. Margaret 57:22 Or we could just not means test care. And anyone who needs care, could just have care. Casandra 57:31 We don't think you're sick enough. Do you want to hear some more interesting statistics? Brooke 57:39 Always. Give me numbers. Casandra 57:42 Yeah, I know Brooks excited. So, a study in Germany recently found that people who get COVID have a 30% or had a 30% increase in risk of autoimmune diseases up to a year after their acute infection. So, there's active comorbidity there. And the people who go into COVID having an autoimmune disease, have a 25% increase in their chance of contracting additional autoimmune diseases. But that's all significantly lowered if patients are vaccinated. There's a like crunchy version of autoimmune communities where people are antivax. Margaret 58:26 Oh, that's why you're making angry eyes as soon as you.... Casandra 58:30 Well, so these statistics are particularly important, right? Margaret 58:35 I'm mad that there's been a Lyme vaccine that they just didn't finish studying. I could be wrong about this. I don't remember all the details. I read a pop science article about it. But there's like a...there's been a Lyme disease [vaccine] that they can give to dogs, but they just didn't finish studying it and people. And it's been around for like 20 years. Brooke 58:54 That's infuriating. Casandra 58:55 I don't live in Lyme country. So it's not like as big an issue here. But that's wild. Margaret 59:00 I got Lyme in Oregon. Like, where you live. But, and I and I live in fucking Lyme country and I've never gotten Lyme over here. Brooke 59:11 Wow. Yeah. Got some anyway, family in Idaho that, about 15 years ago, were battling Lyme and one of them had it since he was a teenager. Margaret 59:23 I want to fucking Lyme vaccine. It's like, I think people who play D&D are going to be smarter around risk analysis, because anyone who's played D&D knows that 5% chance of something happens means it's gonna happen. Like... Casandra 59:37 Yeah, eventually. Margaret 59:39 Yeah, exactly. And because you've had that happen over and over again, when you play this, and you also realize that anything that you get, that's like, a plus 5% safer, you always take it, right, like, and the vaccine is like a 90% safer, and people are like, "Ah, people still get sick, so therefore it's bullshit," but Like, if the vaccine made you 5% safer, and you play Dungeons and Dragons, you'll take it. Casandra 1:00:05 It's actually, it's 10%. It's 10% safer. Margaret 1:00:09 Wait, what is? Casandra 1:00:11 If you're vaccinated.... Margaret 1:00:13 Oh, about the autoimmune stuff. Okay. Casandra 1:00:15 Yeah. Margaret 1:00:15 I was thinking about like COVID itself, but yeah. Yeah. Casandra 1:00:21 I just like kind of fantasy of my high school stats class actually being taught through D&D and like, maybe I would have understood math. Margaret 1:00:27 Yeah, it like, it's, yeah, you understand probability a lot better if you like, regularly.... Casandra 1:00:33 You're actively practicing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what else do you want to know? Margaret 1:00:43 About long COVID? Casandra 1:00:45 Yeah. Margaret 1:00:46 I was hearing that....It...For most people does taper off. Is that being understood? Or is that like, like not to be like, therefore it's fine, but just like, less of a like, "Oh, God, my life is over. This thing has happened," or whatever. Like, I was under the impression that people....not that it should...people should feel like their life is over, even if they get it bad. But like, not that it's... Casandra 1:01:17 It's not debilitating? Brooke 1:01:18 It's not permanent. Margaret 1:01:19 It's not necessarily...it's not necessarily permanently debilitating to everyone who gets it and that it like a lot of people it's about a way slower getting better, but not everyone some people it's about a permanent effect. But that other people are like recovering just very slowly. Is that? Am I completely off? I've no idea. Casandra 1:01:40 I've heard that empirically. But I didn't find a study that like....I found studies acknowledging that for some people after a few months, they get better. Like even if they started out with long COVID, symptoms will get better, but I didn't actually see numbers about...and I think part of that is that it hasn't been long enough. Margaret 1:01:57 Yeah, totally. Casandra 1:01:58 And even if...so, so I keep comparing this to an autoimmune disease, but they haven't actually said like "This is in fact an autoimmune disease," you know, there are people who say it's because of mast cell activation there are people who say it's actually a neurological issue, like they're still figuring it out. But if in fact it it does function like an autoimmune disease you would need years to see how it actually impacts people because people might have a slower recovery and feel better and then you know, their immune system could be triggered by something and they'll get sick again. So yeah, we just don't know. Casandra 1:02:33 That makes sense. Brooke 1:02:36 So I might not be fatigued and coughing forever is what you're saying? Maybe. Casandra 1:02:42 Yeah. Brooke 1:02:45 Okay, that's good. Casandra 1:02:46 But if you are people are researching the efficacy of low dose Naltrexone Brooke 1:02:51 And I'll get my brain back. Maybe. Casandra 1:02:54 I'd say some percentage of it. Margaret 1:02:57 Have you tried yoga? Casandra 1:03:02 You're actually not supposed to do stretching flexibility things with Ehlers Danlos, that's the antithesis of what you're supposed to do. So, no. Margaret 1:03:14 I hope that as we talked about, people not being able to tell when people are being sarcastic, I hope that I manage that tone. Brooke 1:03:22 Okay, but I need yoga for my PTSD. Now I'm lost. Casandra 1:03:27 You could just try the breathing exercises. Brooke 1:03:30 Okay. Meditation that's the one universal good. Casandra 1:03:32 Yeah. Brooke 1:03:33 Maybe. We'll see the sleep disorder. Casandra 1:03:38 I feel I feel like what we're doing right now is like a small encapsulated version of what these like, chronic illness communities do on a larger scale. And at a certain point, I just, like, have to detach myself because I'm like, everything will harm you. Casandra 1:03:52 How about we talk about other headlines. Casandra 1:03:58 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, I found some fun ones. So, I don't remember exactly what she said. I'm sure anyone on Twitter saw, but Marjorie Taylor Greene was basically like "The country should get a divorce." Like, in my mind is civil war. That's a fun one. Margaret 1:04:19 Yeah, and I, I like that one also, because it's like people talk about like, red states, blue states, and people are like, "Oh, well, you know, Oklahoma is banning trans people. Fortunately, no trans people live there." Like, that's not fucking true. And like, and even from a like, Democrat--Republican binary, the difference between a red state and a blue state is usually about 60/40 one way or the other. Yeah, you know, and like, and that's what people aren't acknowledging. Well, there's a million things people aren't acknowledging. Casandra 1:04:50 Sort of what she wanted, she wanted to...part of that comment she made was about proposing that if people move to a red state from a blue state, they should have a period where they can't vote. which would in fact make it so that they were purely red states. Margaret 1:05:05 That's true. As a....I am not a Democrat, but I live in a red state and I am far worse than what they're afraid of with the Democrats. Yeah. Okay, my fun headline. Are we just doing like one headline back and forth for a moment? Casandra 1:05:23 Yeah. Margaret 1:05:25 Massive floods and mudslides in Brazil killed 36 people leaving 800 people homeless, displacing thousands of people, hitting multiple cities. Just massive fuck off disaster that didn't even make it to my social media headlines. Casandra 1:05:41 That makes me want to message Mena. Margaret 1:05:43 Yeah, not a bad idea to check in with her. Friends. I mean, sometimes it's like, Brazil is a very large country, right, and so like, you know, like, if someone something happens in the Pacific Northwest, and someone, my friend from another country is like, "Are you okay?" Then again, I wouldn't actually be sad at someone for checking in, even if something...whatever, anyway. Casandra 1:06:09 Federal Emergency SNAP benefits are ending March 1. Thanks, Biden. Yeah, for some people, that means the difference between like, $270 a month and $20 a month. It's like, a huge amount of money. Brooke 1:06:24 Yeah, for me, it's the difference between like, being able to just buy the foods I need and knowing there's gonna be enough versus like, having to really pay attention and budget of things to make sure I don't run out by the end of the month. Like it's not it's not even a huge amount of difference for me, but it's enough of like the difference between having to pay close attention and just being able to just buy food like normal. Casandra 1:06:49 Yeah. I've seen a few different posts by food pantry volunteers who are like, "It's already like wild in food pantries. And it's not even March 1 yet." Margaret 1:07:01 Floods in New Zealand killed for at least four people and displace 9000 people. All these headlines, it's like things show up in the head in the news when it happens. And then like this one in New Zealand, it's like, killed at least four people and there's 1300 people unaccounted for. And that article is from a while ago and so I didn't find an updated article. The fact that I didn't find it updated article probably means that 1000 More people didn't die, but was really fucking bad. Brooke 1:07:32 And then there's 9000 people that got displaced and you probably don't know what happened to them and where they went. Margaret 1:07:41 Are we still ping-ponging or should I just go with the rest of mine. Casandra 1:07:45 Oh no, I'll go Walgreens recently caved to Conservative pressure and agreed to stop selling Mifo...I get the full names of miso and mife confused but it's one of them. Margaret 1:07:59 One of the main abortion drugs. Casandra 1:08:01 Yeah, in a pro choice state. Margaret 1:08:06 Wow, in a pro choice? I didn't. Casandra 1:08:08 Oh, yes, it's Kansas, which is a pro choice state, and the you know, in case you needed the added kicker, Mifo is also used for completing miscarriages, so people will not be able to access that drug if they have a miscarriage. At least not in Walgreens. So, you know, change pharmacies if you want. Margaret 1:08:31 Legally Walgreens. Brooke 1:08:34 In Minecraft. Margaret 1:08:35 Ah, in Czarist Russia, that's what I'm pushing for is the new 'In Minecraft'. They cracked Minecraft. Now it's all about Czarist Russia. Warming oceans are cutting into the world's widest glacier. They're cutting like big trenches from the bottom into the world's widest glacier, the Thwaites, ultimately these melting glaciers over the next couple 100 years will likely raise global sea level by 10 feet. Brooke 1:09:04 Is that an Antarctic glacier? Margaret 1:09:07 I don't know. Casandra 1:09:12 I'm assured by a friend who's like a right wing researcher, who isn't right wing but does research into right wing hate groups, that this is probably going to be a non issue, but apparently and Idaho hate group on Telegram has been calling for an 'Antisemitic Day of Hate,' this Shabbat and I have friends in the areas where this is happening who have said that their synagogues are canceling services. Margaret 1:09:37 That fucking bums me out. Economic Research firm Moody's looked at US cities most at risk for combined heat, drought and sea level rise over the next 30 years,, basically like what US cities are going to be most impacted by climate change over the next couple of decades. And the losers are the Bay Area, a whole bunch of Florida, N
Episode Summary Brooke and Carla talk about parenting as radicals and youth autonomy, but more importantly, they talk about adult supremacy, the history of it, the ways it influences all of our lives and strategies for confronting it as parents and non parents. They breakdown childism, and talk about how the most important thing you can do is listen to the youth and how community is once again the answer to many societal woes. Guest Info Carla Joy Bergman (She/they) is a writer, producer, podcaster, schemer and causer of trouble. Their book Trust Kids! is out from AK Press and can be ordered here. You can find Grounded Futures at GroundedFutures.com or @GroundedFutures on Twitter and Instagram. You can find Listening House Media here. She also cohosts the Grounded Futures podcast with their son Uilliam. Host Info Brooke can be found at Strangers helping up keep our finances intact and on Twitter and Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Carla on Adult Supremacy Brooke 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, your host for this episode. Today we have the honor of talking with author Carla Bergman. We're going to discuss parenting here in the end times. But first, we'd like to honor our membership and the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts by playing a little jingle from one of the other podcasts on the network. Jingle jingle, jingle, jingle, jingle jingle here. And we're back. Carla, thank you for joining us today to talk about parenting. Would you please introduce yourself? Let us know what you do, your pronouns, share where you're from if you're comfortable disclosing that. Carla 01:58 Great. Hi, Brooke. Thanks for having me here. I love this podcast. It's a real honor. Yeah, I'm Carla Joy Bergman. I use she/her, they/them pronouns. I'm calling in from Musqueam. Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh lands, also known as Vancouver and the Pacific Northwest, across the border in Canada. Yeah, I, well, I do a lot of things. I'm a bit of a autonomous scholar, writer, producer, a podcaster or schemer, causer of trouble. I don't know, that's always hard to put yourself on there. Like what do you do? Yeah, I'm a mom, friend. I'm a white settler with Irish and Welsh ancestry. Yeah. Brooke 03:03 Yeah, well, we're really glad that you are here and taking the time to talk about this topic with us today. I know that you just released a book back in November called "Trust Kids", which looks like you can get from AK Press. And they have print ebook and audiobook available. There's probably other sources to get it as well. So I'd love to talk about your book a little bit. And then you know, if that leads into some broader conversations about parenting in general, and especially, you know, parenting here in the end times and how we support each other as leftists, you know, I think that would be great to talk about too. But let's, let's start with your book. I'm curious why you wanted to write the book, like what inspired you to write it? Carla 03:50 It's like, intergenerational? It's a project that comes across many, many timelines. Yeah, so it's called "Trust Kids Confronting Adult Supremacy" and while stories on youth autonomy and confronting adult supremacy, oh, boy, it's really hard to pinpoint a moment. It's so it's so cool to have the privilege to reflect back in your past and you get to evoke where you are today on the past. Brooke 04:20 Yeah, feel free to talk about all of the things that inspired you in the process. Carla 04:24 Thanks. Yeah, I mean, I've always had a problem with hierarchy and with authority, which goes way back to when I was a little kid. I was definitely the kid who stood up to teachers who bullied kids and other parents or other adults who bullied kids, including my own, and obviously, it was meant with not always a lot of kindness, and often a lot of violence. So it's something that's always been kind of in me to be aware of adult supremacy. But really, it wasn't until I had my own child, that I had to really put the practice of youth autonomy and thinking through adult supremacy in the everyday and every night. Brooke 05:11 I'm curious if you feel comfortable sharing the age of your child or children? Carla 05:16 Yeah. So my oldest is 28. And my youngest is 18, the oldest is Zach, and the youngest is Uilliam, and Uilliam and I do a podcast, that's part of the Channels Zero network as well called Grounded Futures. And yeah, and Zach. Both of them wrote for the book, Uilliam did it their own chapter, their own section, and then Zach and I co wrote a piece together. Yeah, so.. Brooke 05:43 Man, that's great. Carla 05:45 Yeah. So, you know, Zack, and I got....and my partner, we got involved in alternative education and youth liberation kind of worlds. We were like, really fortunate because we were working class family and, and I got diagnosed with lupus, like there was all these things that were making it like, well, how am I going to not send my kid to regular school. But I was fortunate to live in a city where there's a dem... that was...it was like, almost 48 years, it ran...ademocratic preschool that was publicly funded. So that meant it was free to attend, as well as a free school, and there was parent participatory, and it was, you know, it went through all different kinds of renditions, and tried all different kinds of models, and but really, at the center was and at the center was this idea of youth liberation and children, self directed sort of education styles, I, you know, through that, at the core of all my work is this notion of solidarity, like how to think about this conversation of youth autonomy and undoing adult supremacy, amidst and alongside all the other horrors of, of empire, whether it be ableism, racism, classism, and whatnot. And I really noticed that a lot of kids, you know, they don't a lot of families can opt out of school, and they can't actually do this. So, I really wanted to move the conversation away from 'school or not school,' because it just marginalizes the, the work and because it becomes siloed. And really, adult supremacy is in it's always in the room. It's, it's it is like at the core, it's at the center of all other oppressions. You know, we just keep replicating this horrible system by raising kids with internalized adults supremacy. And so yeah. Brooke 07:41 That part of the subtitle really stuck out to me, the adult supremacy part, which, you know, sorry to interrupt you, please keep going. But I definitely want to dive more into adult supremacy discussion. But... Carla 07:54 I mean, I think that this conversation, so I'm just gonna really get really to the heart of it. So about 12=13 years ago, I was co director of a youth run arts and activism space in Vancouver that was at the center was youth autonomy and radical politics and this intersectional praxis of working alongside other struggles and being in solidarity with them. And I was really noticing from other radicals that you know, youth liberation, youth autonomy, children's rights, all that stuff was almost always left off of the the oppression chart or pie. And so I would bring it up, and it would be like an afterthought. And they'd be like, oh, yeah, right, of course. And slowly, you know, we've seen that grow. However, what I noticed was I faced a lot of vitriol from a lot of radicals that I was privileged, that I was privileging kids and like that, all this stuff, and I was like, "Wait a minute, like, you know who's privileged is like the middle class family who moves across town to the rich neighborhood to put their kid in the better school like," no, no, no, like that's nuanced this a little bit like. So I came up with the phrase "Solidarity begins at home," which was really the orientation of this book to begin with. And if you follow it on AK Press, they often post about it calling it, "Solidarity Begins at Home," because I was really noticing that anti authority, anti authority folks particularly were like, "Except for with my children, I'm an authority." Or, you know, "Oh, Carla and her weirdness being friends with our kids," or whatever, like it just was just marginalizing the conversation, when really the issue is adult supremacy and, and, you know, I'm just a curious person. So I'm like, "Why doesn't that resonate?" Like it's something we've all experienced at different degrees. Absolutely. This is a really uneven white supremacist, colonial, racist, ableist world. But we've all experiencedi it. It's actually a place where we could connect and have a more generative conversation. And yet it just keeps getting marginalized. And so I just really had to think about how to center it more. And so, on the one hand, I'm saying "Solidarity Begins at Home." But I'm also decentering parenting in the conversation, because I think like this is just so much bigger and beyond like, parenting. It's everywhere that a young person encounters an adult, the adult supremacy world, and it's everywhere, like Malika Radway, who wrote for the book, like, and she does, "Raising Rebels" podcasts with our kids. Like they said, you know, "Adult supremacy is in every single room you're in," you can't...it's just like whiteness, you can't, right? So yeah, so I didn't feel ready to write it. I always had a kind of what's the word like, I guess it's about consent, like, I really needed it to have my kids full consent to talk about our life. And to talk about this in a way that I wanted to, especially that framing of 'solidarity begins at home.' So that's, that's the reason why I held off until I had their, you know, really, they're full consent. And, you know, different people, different adults, different parents, different radical parents write about their kids in different ways. This isn't a judgment, this was just my own ethos with my kids, right? So that's why it took 12 years. I just actually found a new Google Doc from 2012. That said, new book "Solidarity begins at home. "Listen, Adults," or something I was going to call it. Brooke 11:41 Yeah, it sounds like you not only have their consent, but kind of their enthusiastic consent. And they both, you know, wrote for it and participated in that which, you know, what a joy to be able to do that with them. Carla 11:54 Yeah. And my son, the oldest one did the audio book, which is really special Brooke 11:59 Oh, wow, that's really cool. I, my daughter is 11. And we're firmly in that tween phase right now where there's both the child and the budding teenager that, that show up in her and it's a interesting age, for sure. And I just have the one. But I want to rewind slightly back to adult supremacy, to get us on the same page here. And we, you know, what does that phrase mean to you? How do you define that? How do you see that in the world? Carla 12:35 Right? I mean, it's really, it's always evolving and changing, the more I like, learn, and like, explore and research and talk to people who are real nerds and researchers. Two of the folks who wrote for the book, Toby Rollo and Stacy Patton, really do a deep, deep look at the history, the roots of adult supremacy. And so it's, it's hard for me not to start there, because it's like, my mind is just kind of blown. You know, it really goes back to early colonization in the....in Europe. You know, we hear this from indigenous folks on, you know, on the lands we're both on that, you know, this is not how people do kinship. This is not like the...kind of like patriarchal, heteronormative hierarchical family. It's not, you know, and that, that that's not how it is. And so, way, like it goes way back, this kind of I don't even, I can't even pinpoint it, but it definitely predates capitalism, although like it, you know, it got more entrenched during capitalism to have the house set up the way that the patriarchal family, the way it was set up, like kids had to be subjugated from their parents and the patriarchal parent was being subjugated by, you know, the whole system of capitalism, right, yeah. But it actually predates all that in it. And it goes back to early colonization. And it was by design. It was to sow seeds of control, distrust, and this idea that, I think Toby calls it protocitizenship, that children aren't fully human. They don't have any rights. You know, there's 13 states that still have paddles that can, people can still paddle in schools in the US, I don't know if you know, that and spent, you know, like, you, you will you get fined and go to jail if you beat your dog, but you won't if you beat your kid, as long as they can't see any bruises. You know, so this is like, it's ongoing, this idea that childhood is just a phase, you know, this kind of just creation of this thing that's like less than, was by design. And it's become, you know, it got more entrenched through psychology, the whole, you know, we don't even need to go into that. But even eugenics, like early eugenics was practiced on children...kind of way where children who were street involved and didn't have parents or were, you know, out of care kind of kids. They were sterilized first. Stacy Patton is a doing a book right now on the history of lynching children in the south. she had to actually go to Europe to get to the root of it. And it was practiced first on children there. So... Brooke 15:31 Emotionally, I don't think I could handle that kind of research. Carla 15:34 Yeah, me neither. I just want to get...this is what I said, like, I didn't have all this information like a couple of years ago. And so this isn't where I would have started the conversation. However, I used to say like that this is a Western...Euro Western colonial way of being in the world, and like the hatred of children, they have childhood and, and the violence against children is a construct within colonization. I did know that, but I didn't realize how severe it was. And so alongside the other horrific systems within colonization, I like to call it Empire because it's like a hydra, all of it, capitalism, ableism, ageism. We're still we're fighting all those battles still in use. The problem with adult supremacy is that it just keeps reenscribing itself because, yes, yeah, yes, you can see how it just, it's not that's why I'm not really I'm not a proponent of youth liberation as such. And why I talk about autonomy instead is because it's it needs to be intersectional, it needs to be intergenerational, it needs to be...we have to undo adult supremacy, we can't just focus on doing youth liberation siloed over here, because they grow into adults, and then they become adults supremacists. Right. And like, do you know what I mean? it's kind of like...it is one of...it has mobility, in terms of getting out of being the oppressed to becoming the oppressor. Not unlike class... Brooke 17:13 So if I'm understanding it, then adult supremacy.... Carla 17:20 I could give you a definition. Brooke 17:24 Well, let's see if, well let's see if I picked it up from that. It's the idea that adults are all and always supreme to children, who are just going through a phase and to some degree, it's acceptable to enforce that adult supremacy through violence? That's kind of from all those things. Brooke 17:54 Yeah. And so, if I get it correctly, parental supremacy is like within the bigger circle of adult supremacy, right? Like... Carla 17:54 Yeah, and psychological violence, physical...like all kinds of...it is a violent act. It's a colonizing of the mind and soul and body. And yeah, like, you know, the whole, the whole idea is to prepare your kid for adulthood, which is just ridiculous. Like, they are a full human already, that things need to be discovered. And they, you know, like, all of us, guidance is important. mentorships are important skill sharing is important. Presence is important. Love is important, and ultimately care, right? Yeah, but they....and they are fully human already. They are no less, no more, you know, some maybe, you know, whatever, it's, you know, it's relational. But, the idea adult supremacy is children are under developed, they're not fully human, they need to prepare for ultimate adulthood. And that is the supreme holding of what it means to be fully human, is to be an adult. Carla 18:46 Yeah, I mean, I've always liked Bell Hooks' thing she called, she called it the patriarchal family, like, it didn't matter what gender you were, or how you configurated your family, where if there's adults, taking care of children it was a patriarchal family. And I really liked that phrasing, because I think that's a way to maybe push back against some of the what happens with some of the feminists ideas around parenting that, you know, like a woman, you know, like, I'm talking more like, I'm probably aging myself, but I'm doing more like this second, third wave of feminism where it was, you know more about their rights than it was their children's because they were so oppressed under the patriarch of the family or whatever. And yes, and you know, Bell Hooks came along and was like, you're a patriarch too within that adult supremacy. Yeah, yeah. Brooke 20:02 So, um, we talked about the, you know, physical psychological abuse factor of that adult supremacy. I'm curious what other ways you would point out that it manifests itself in society...families and, you know, adults in general, and maybe there's some, you know, insidious ways that we don't even think of, you know, that wouldn't immediately come to mind that you could teach us about here. Carla 20:28 I mean, it's everywhere. You know, I, I'm not on the socials at all. I left fully back in the spring, but when I was, I was constantly asking my fellow podcasters, and journalists and thinkers and opinionerrs, to please stop calling the most vile human beings on this earth childish, and children and toddlers. It's right there. You know, that is where it's at. Can you... and people would be like, "What do you mean?" And I would be like "Change 'child' to any other group. Woman..." and then their eyes, they're like, "Oh, my God, I'd be canceled. If I called Trump a whiny woman," or whatever. Put any group in there. Right. I don't really want to go down that road. But, you see what I mean. So that's a one that I have to...We just actually, Grounded Futures, just re-released it because it's not stopping. Right? Because so, that's a really, really huge way. It's all those biases, right, those social biases. So, like I mentioned earlier, I was the co director of a youth run arts and activism space, that was free to use, it had a lot of anarchist kind of ethos running around it. It was co founded. It was founded by six youth and Matt Hearn, back in 2001. And my son was on the collective and we did a whole lot of cool stuff. But it was incredible how many adult organizers would email me and ask if they could come in and give a workshop on how to run a space. Or how to run a collective. I'd be like, I think you all could come down and learn something from this youth collective, but that's pretty like a bias, right? Like, I was like, this is the most functional club I've ever worked with, like I've, you know, been in a lot of collectives like, I don't think age has anything to do with it. It's about like some other things going on around power. You know, like, I...Yeah, so there's this idea that they were...it was flaky, and that they didn't know what they were doing. And so that was just another bias, an ageist....it's, it's just terrible. Yeah, I watched it just go down all the time. Another storieas an anecdote...I'm sure you have many....My kid when they were really, my youngest, when they were really little, and we'd go grocery shopping. And they were really good at picking out avocados and fruit. And one of the people working in the store, like slapped their hand and said, "No, you're not allowed to touch fruit." I was like, first of all, don't ever touch my kid. Second of all, they're better at it than me. You know, like I just, you know, like, it's that kind of that kind of like, they just....the person couldn't even...it was just so reflexive. Like, they couldn't even imagine that this five year old knew what they were doing. Stuff like that. It's just constant. It's just everywhere. And I'm sure you you can, you know....and I do it myself. And I want to say, because I know I when I talk about this, it can come off like I have it figured out. I confront my adult supremacy and particularly my power every single day in my relationship with my youngest, like, every single day it comes up in subtle and overt ways because of maybe I'm tired or and the more we get, the more we uncover it, the more we see. The more we get into the like, the nuance of power, like the nuance of like persuasion that you know, like that I hold, the more I'm like, "Dang it!" Yeah, yeah. Brooke 24:19 There's another example I just thought of, too, that I think often crops up around this time of year with people visiting family so often. The hugging example. You know, not making your kid go hug somebody because he's "Oh, you know, hug me." Even if it's you, the parent, like "Hug me goodbye." You know, don't make don't make your kids have that physical interaction with another human being. Carla 24:46 Thanks for bringing that up. It's like it's so true. Like kids live...like especially little kids...live a extremely nonconsensual life. From bedtime, to food, to like touch right, and every thing in between. And parents, you know, there's a lot of nuance in that conversation around parents and parenting, and but it's real. All right. And, you know, people are always trying to do workshops on teaching consent, and I'm always like, just gonna fail if you're not living with your kids. Brooke 25:18 Yeah. Carla 25:19 It's just gonna fail. Like it's so embodied, like, children just live such a nonconsensual life in lots and lots of ways because of this, because of adult supremacy. So yeah, thanks for bringing up...getting right to the right to the point. And, you know, it's interesting because thinking of parenting like my...sorry, my, my youngest is Uilliam, but we often call him Liam, that I do the podcast with, so he does a lot of the social media for Grounded Futures. And he often feels a bit gaslit by like, kind of the algorithm that comes through that one around like radical parenting and anarchists and stuff around, like on so called holidays on how cool it's going with their kids in that and because then they go on theirs where it's very much mostly trans and LGBTQ+ youth, ranging from 16 to like 25. And all his friends and all his mutual's are in trauma on that day because of nonconsensual hugs, from having to mask, from having from being misgendered, from not being believed that they're trans or I can even be, are non binary, or whatever, the whole gamut, right? And, and I hadn't even really thought about, like how algorithms work. And I was like, well, that's really hard. And he's saying, "I'm not saying that those radical things aren't happening that I'm seeing on Grounded Futures. It's just like, you can get in your bubble and think everything's better. And then you go to this other thing, and you're like, "Ah, the youth are actually not doing well, right now. Overall." Yeah. Brooke 27:02 Yeah, I've often been told as a parent that I have raised a very rude child, because, and I'm not going to try and pretend that I've been some sort of perfect, you know, no supremacy, children autonomy kind of thing. I'm human. I'm not, I'm still working on it. But, that was something that I noticed and chose to do differently early on in her life about not making her hug people or touch people kissing people goodbye. And even, you know, not necessarily forcing her to say goodbye to somebody. You know, I did a lot of giving her the option, you know, "We're going to leave now, would you like to say goodbye to Grandma?" or what have you. And so as she's gotten older, you know, some of those things that I didn't force her to do, she kind of didn't learn, and now she's old enough to where she understands politeness. You know, and I can suggest, you know, it's more polite in this situation, to say goodbye to this person, you know, and she can still choose then how she wants to do it. She can understand the social dynamic of why she's making that choice. Carla 28:11 That's beautiful. Brooke 28:12 You get accused of being a bad parent, or a rude parent or, or whatever it is, because you don't force your kids do these social things. Carla 28:20 I can't believe how many adults came through the Thistle that would say, "Oh, the Thistle youth are rude. And I was like, "You really have a hard time with like sharing your power, hey?" Like, I just would call it what I saw. Like, actually, what I saw was like, you actually want to come in and have kids, like, passively listen to you. And be polite, so called, you know, nice. But, they're like, they're not buying what you're selling. And they're like, "I don't want to do this." And you're thinking they're rude and entitled. I was like, This is what youth autonomy looks like. This is what sharing power looks like. This is what getting out of young people's way looks like. Yeah, I have a really similar thing with my kids. And I, my youngest, like really cared about relationships to the point where like, we've been unpacking this, where it was all overt, but they they took the social niceties on really young, but they had it all figured out. They're like, "At so and so's house, I have to like say 'please,' and 'thank you.' At so and so's house, I get to eat whatever I want, but I'm not allowed to swear. And I just listen because I want to have these friendships." I was like, wow, that's really cool. And also please don't mask. [emotions] Brooke 29:33 Isn't that so challenging? Carla 29:35 Yeah, it's a hard one. Brooke 29:37 Yeah, and mine lives in two households that are you know, very extreme opposites. Carla 29:42 Right. Brooke 29:42 So, the things she's allowed to say and do in this household are much more, you know, open and she's got a lot more autonomy and authority to do things and then she has to, you know, in that house, in order to fit in and not you know, not make waves, she feels like she has to you know, dial it back and behave in certain ways. And that's hard to see. Carla 30:05 It's also practice for life. I mean, you know, until we deal with this, I mean, you know? It's a hard one. Brooke 30:12 Yeah. Yeah. At Least for the world that we currently live in. Carla 30:15 Yeah. Yeah. Brooke 30:17 But yeah, while we're talking about like the liberation of children, I am curious if you would like vision with me, what would relationships look like between parents and children, or society and children if we were treating them in ways that were autonomous, and, you know, honoring them as the human beings that they are? Carla 30:38 Oh, I'd be dreaming. And here's why. Because everything would slow the F down, like so much, like, first and foremost, because there'd have to be a lot more or listening, a lot of questions. And that...I used to, I used to call it the friendship bar, how I trained myself, like, supported myself in my learning and making mistakes with my youngest was like, and I think, John Holt, this a John Holt quote, like never, you know, "Never say to a young person, what you wouldn't say to the person you hold in highest regard." It's a really good bar, it really, it really is. I can't...you know, it seems, you know, a lot of people throw quotes and people go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah," but I can't express it enough how much it has helped a lot of other fellow co conspirators who want to undo adult supremacy when I share this with them, and they're like, "Right!" You know, and I think we can do this with some of our closest friends too. Or some of our, you know, maybe if we have some hard times with a partner, like we can be a little bit more snarky with them than we would with somebody we hold in high regard. So like, I mean, I think it's just a good practice across the board to like, figure out what is the most generative, you know, responsible, trusting way to come into relationship with anybody? And yeah, and one of the things we really strive for in our house is this notion of solidarity. My oldest said this on a talk about the book the other night, I hadn't really...it was really nice to hear the feedback, but he's like, you know, "it was always really transparent, that this was the goal at our house, that we were in solidarity with each other." And this is why I use the term solidarity because and, you know, this changes based on their age because they can, you know, they're littler bodies, they have littler nervous systems and stuff, right? But like, it's not...I'm not a child centered home, either. I think that's when we can get into some weird reinscribing individualism. We're very much a relationship centered home no matter what the configuration is, even when we've had roommates and whatnot. And like, it's like, just everything's transparent and slows down. Like, you know, like, food, all the conversations, bedtime, sleeping, care. I had, I had a chronic illness for the big chunk of my children's lives, that's pretty much healed, but that that involved a lot of solidarity and a lot of care going in all directions, right. Like I I used to joke that I parented from bed. Ha ha ha But it was true, right? So yeah, I would like to hear some of your dreams, but like, I just right away, there'd be a lot of listening, a lot of curiosity, a lot of play, a lot of tantrums. But we'd got to have them too. You know? Brooke 33:28 Yeah. Yeah, the thing that stands out to me the most, there is the thing about slowing down, because that is definitely such a huge difference I notice, you know, between the way I would sometimes do things, and my friends with children of the same age, or what I see, you know, now when I'm looking around at different parents and what they're doing that, yeah,you have to engage more with the child. It's not....there's the the jacket debate, right, That you have with little kids, because they never want to put on a frickin jacket. And you have some parents that are like, "Well, they need this jacket, and I'm just going to shove their little bodies into it." And, you know, they have the debate once and they're like, "I'm not gonna fight with a three year old about this jacket." And then they just force it onto their kid every time. Whereas, I mean, you can sit down and talk about that more, you know, "I think you should put on the jacket because this" or you know, "Let's step outside and feel the cold outside and see if you change your mind," and, and then ultimately, also having to honor what they land on, you know? The kid says, "No, I'm not gonna put on a jacket." That's, you know, it's a slower process and then at the end, letting go of that final bit of, you know, authority or autonomy. Like maybe you still take the jacket to school with them, you know, they have to carry it perhaps, but you don't force them to put it on, but it is slower. So your life has to allow for time for that. And you know, of course under capitalism, the the empires you say that we are in, it makes it so hard to do that and then especially if you have multiple children that are maybe all small at the same time, you know, you've got three of them arguing with you about maybe three different things all at once. It's tough. Carla 35:11 Yeah. I mean, and this is why like "Trust Kids", I just want to go on the record isn't a parenting handbook at all. Like if...the essays are stories on youth autonomy, people...youths have written for it. Adults have written about their experience growing up in youth liberation environment, to more theoretical pieces, but and then a lot about confronting adult supremacy. So, it's a book for adults, for sure, and about us doing this work together. But it's not a parenting handbook, because at the core for me, Liam always says this on the podcast, like he's like, you know, "People often ask my mom for advice. And she's always like, "I can't give you advice, because I don't know your child, and they don't know what they need. Like, if you asked them? Like, it's just like, you know, that's my advice. Ask your kid."" I love the coat example. Because it's so you know, like, you're late, you have to pick up your, you know, you have to do the thing, you got to do all the things. And my kids are like the opposite. My oldest, always over dresses, and I used to always have to carry his coat halfway, and then the other ones the other way. So, I just, you know, it's back to like, I think what my Zack said the other night on that call, or that show, the episode, or whatever we did, the public, the book launch at Firestorm was that it was always just really transparent. Like, he never felt like, confused, but what was happening, so I was just always really real, I'd be like, "Dude, you always are hot within 10 minutes, like, can you not wear like 50 coats, oh my God, and because I don't...physically can't carry it, like, I don't have enough strength. So we need to like figure," but that took time, like that kind of negotiating conversation and being in solidarity with my physical body and not being able to carry the coat in 10 minutes in the walk. And him like wanting to like pile on the three sweaters and the coat. He's still like that. You know, like, it was like, yeah... Brooke 37:04 Yeah, as you just pointed out, there are times when, like, you're running late, so you don't necessarily have the time to take to do that. And then, you know, you need to know for yourself as a parent, you know, what, what you want to do in that situation. How you want to handle that. Do you want to be later and take the time to do it? You know, if you want to honor your principles to never shove this child into the jacket, you know, it's it's again, it's not it's not easy. It takes some practice and some forethought. Carla 37:33 Or let them go without a jacket, you know, let them experience it. Brooke 37:36 Right. That's what I did. Carla 37:39 Yeah, exactly. Brooke 37:40 She got cold sometimes. Carla 37:41 I mean, yeah. And even me as a kid like, my you know, so called autonomy was also known as that word 'neglect,' you know, so like, no one around ever, so I was like, I often in the winter would have like no socks on and I'd be running around and like a tank top and..because I early years and northern Alberta, and then down here in the Pacific Northwest, I had like thought it was like balmy, warm you know, and so when my youngest was like, "I don't like wearing like, big coats, and like, as a kid, he would run into the ocean at five in December. And I was like, right, I was like that, you know, also, it's back to that, believing that when they tell you, you know. That's what trust really is, is believing people's experience and perspective. And when they say "I don't...I get hot, I get really hot." And you're like looking at the temperature like, I feel like you're gonna get cold, but you just gotta let go. Brooke 38:39 Yeah, that's a really difficult component. I'm curious, you know, how you would respond to somebody who, you know, maybe wants to point out that, well, you know, kids, they aren't good at looking that far ahead, right? Because their prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed. They are going to be good at seeing that they are going to need this jacket down the line or, you know, whatever the the thing is, that they, you know, maybe haven't developed the capacity to comprehend. And that would mean maybe their argument for why you 'have to' have to in air quotes force them into the jacket. Carla 39:13 I mean, again, just Yeah, I mean, again, just being I mean, it's, I like this, I like this example, because it's not life and death. But, you know, like, you know, the compromises is that I need you to like, throw an extra coat in your backpack, or I'm going to carry one. Well, I you know, this is what care looks like. I'm going you know, we're going to be together so I'm going to throw an extra coat in the in the car. You don't have to wear it, or whatever. Like I just think just being real like. Back to what I said earlier about, like, how would I...How would I talk to my partner about this? Who was, who's being ridiculous, in my opinion, and like, it'd be like, "What are you doing? Like it's like snowing and super cold and you are wearing just like a hoodie," um, Yeah, we would just have a real conversation about maybe some...infuse it with some humor. But yeah, when they're really, really little like, I mean, you know, I definitely when you have like two kids, like, I would have to pick up my oldest from wherever he was, you know, at 11 years old across town and then the youngest at 2 doesn't want to like, leave where...they didn't like transitions, so didn't want to leave the park and whatever. It's like this....Yeah, there's a there's a, there's a lot of tears. And it's just like, what I got good at was realizing that, oh, he needs like, really clear messaging, like 10 minutes before, eight minutes before, five minutes before, and then they stopped like the the tears he...like he just...I had to like, cipher, it decipher it, you know, it could be like, "Oh, okay. Right." Because, you know, he was just so in the moment, so present, which is also what I think the world would be like if we had less adult supremacy, or none. Would be, we'd all be way more present with each other. And maybe wouldn't worry so much about wearing an extra coat because life wouldn't be so serious. Brooke 39:15 Yeah, that makes sense. Another thing I was curious about is, you know, we're in the end times now, sort of, you know, we're seeing the the collapse of capitalism, a rerise of fascism, you know, societal crumbles, there's kind of a lot going on. And, do you feel like, I mean, this topic of adult supremacy is, is probably always important. But is it more important now that we're in these, you know, sort of end times? Does it? Do we need that even more as society collapses? Or? I'm just curious what you... you see them saying? Carla 42:05 Yeah, no, no, I think like, I think I would pivot just a little slight pivot. Because what I'm...I mean the book, people who have read the book, really do notice that the book has an intergenerational scope throughout it, is that yeah, we need like, we need to recover, reimagine, and grow what it means to be in family and kinship together, like we need larger family, like, we wouldn't be...even like the story about the coat and that would be so much more manageable if we lived in a more multi generational, larger community, right, in the way we're meant to live, so and that is connected to adult supremacy because the nuclear family, it's all connected around, like controlling, subjugating majority of the population so that people could profit more, right, that or have more land whether, you know, predates really does predate capitalism. So, yes, I think that, you know, to quote Donna Haraway, "Making kin is the single most important thing we need to be doing right now." But we need to think about that cross species, across bloodline, beyond bloodlines, and way beyond borders. And for it's like it, we need it for our survival, and ultimately, to thrive more. I thrive way more when there's way more other humans around all ages sharing the load of whatever it is, like nerding out together, doing a puzzle playing, cooking, cleaning, doing work, making income, you know, sharing, sharing the load sharing the joys, I think it's really connected to the end times that it's more urgent than ever, but it's a reclaiming, you know, it's a recovery. It's not a...we don't have to imagine it, we know how to do it. You know, it's connected to mutual aid and webs of care and all that good stuff. But it's, you know, like, I live in a city so I don't have to prep prep, you know, I don't have...I don't live off in the boonies, you know, I don't have to worry about having a generator and stuff and I think like it was, you know, I'd like to think of myself more like mycelium like if a disaster strikes, I'm going to be like mycelium, I'm just gonna go and offer support and care and there's going to be plenty and people are going to show up because we know that in disasters, right? But if we had more, just more multi generational, multi species kin and families, that would even be better. I don't know If that answered your question, but, yes, you know, I want I want to abolish adults supremacy. From day one, I think it's always been a terrible thing. It's definitely had times when it was worse for some kids more than others still is worse for some kids more than others. But yes, it's connected to webs... Brooke 42:13 Yeah, how that ties into what we need with the collapse of society here, the collectivism in the broader webs of kinship are unimportant. And eliminating muddled supremacy is going to be happy to be part of that. I really liked the way you frame that there that it's, we're not building this new thing, we're going back to, you know, what we used to do. And really, I think, fundamentally, how we're wired as well, you know, the research indicates we are very wired for community and kinship and connection and all of that. So it's getting back to our truer selves to be to be together in those ways. And then that does lead me into kind of the last broad topic that I wanted to consider with you, which is, you know, you and I are both parents, so we can talk about our experiences and what we need and so forth. But for people who aren't parents, don't have kids of their own that want to support their friends who are parents and, you know, help, you know, revolutionize parenting here in this adult supremacy and build the kinship, what, you know, what kind of things would you say to them? That would be? What can they do to help? What can they do to to learn more? And to help build that as the non parent? Carla 46:31 Yeah, I think if you feel...well, first of all, do your own work on undoing your adult supremacy and like really go deep into like, all the places like you're probably really...every adult out there has dealt with it. And so you will probably have some internalized adult supremacy and some trauma and hurt around it and different degrees varying degrees. So first and foremost, like, just look at it, look at it. Notice how you show up for young people if if you are in young people's lives. And you know, listen more, just listen more, listen way, way more to young people. I think like, you know, when parents write about this topic, there's this like paradox of centering ourselves. It's like, you know, but this is, this is one of the reasons why I didn't want to do the book for a long time. But I was up for it. I was up for it, because it's important. And I intentionally invited in a lot of lot of people who aren't parents to write for the book, because I think it's really crucial. We cannot do this alone as the parents, like we just can't, like we need everybody, we need everybody on this, to undo this like massive, massive like bias. It is still one of the largest ones that's ignored. I am really rare. We are really rare. I'm not talking about radical parenting. I'm talking about people who notice adult supremacy, and like point it out. Like, it's a small, isolating community. I often feel really alone, I feel really gaslit. I have a crew of people we talk, live globally think, unfortunately. But it's just how it is. Like I'm talking about this nuance of like noticing adult supremacy. I have a lot of people who do radical parenting. I know a lot of people who are into revolutionary mothering. I know a lot of people who are into like school abolition and radical education and pedagogy stuff and use liberation, but not all of them connect to this larger systemic piece. Brooke 48:27 Yeah, it's kind of a Venn diagram that some of those overlap into it, but they're not fully... Carla 48:33 Yeah. And so, I just ask more people to really tune into it. Notice it. Call it out when you see it. It's all the frickin time. Like, you know, the other you know, disability justice activists and organizers and their allies have done a such a great job of changing the use of those words in media to describe the horrors and the vile people. But, there's two that still really are used constantly and one is saneism. Like so calling someone like Trump insane is just an insult to anybody who has madness. Brooke 49:16 Yeah. Carla 49:17 And because like, I don't know about you, but the mad folks in my life are nothing like Trump. And the like, yeah, some pathos going on for sure. But, like, you know. And then the other one is, you know, the childish toddler and just call it you know, just call up ask people to stop, to not do it. And comedians are the worst and you know, the other one is, I guess, you know, I mean, it's still okay for comedians to make...to not be so great about body politics, especially fat politics, like fat body stuff shaming, like that one still can pass a little bit, but it's it's also getting more people are you know, due to organizers and activists and those of us who push back against that, but the children one is the big one. Sanism and childism and are the two. So, if you're a fellow adult out there, a person who is not a young person and you're on the socials and you have a platform, join, join, join, join us in inviting folks to stop doing that. Because, you know, my kid, like, he was like, four...I don't know what it was, like 15 or something when Trump was first on the presidency stuff, and he was noticing it all the time. He's like those...every adult who calls him a child in front of their kids, their kids must like internalize some hatred. Like they must look at Trump. Look at their parent. Look at Trump. Look at the parent and go "Wow, my parents claim this really awful evil person that they clearly hate a child. They must hate me too." Yeah, I was like, Thank you for saying that. Like, my, my brain went, "Right?" Like that is like, oh, like I cried. It was so hard to hear that, like, you know, he was 14 at the time. And he that's what he saw, or 12 or something. And I was like, "Right. You're right." Yeah. I don't think it's intentional. I don't think the parent doing that is thinking they're doing that. Brooke 51:25 Oh, of course. Of course. Yeah. If someone were to replace it with a word like immature, do you think that still has the same connotation and problem? Carla 51:35 Yeah, I have a list. I have, I can share I we we put it up. I was telling you, we put it up. I used to....I have it's called "Trying to find a way to describe a billionaire, a politician, a fascist: Here's a list of words to use instead of calling them a child toddler or childish." And because we really worked on not using sanist language as well. So, careless, mean, rash, hot headed, imput. I have a speech impediment. So sometimes I can't say words. Manipulative. I have speech apraxia. Manipulative, entitled, jerk, foolish, impulsive, irresponsible, imprudent, ill advised, greedy, violent, liar, asshole, shitbag, racist, fascist, reckless, ridiculous. And there's so many more. You know, like, Just say what you mean? What do you know, I had friends go, "But you know, I don't know what to say." I'm like, "Well, what are you trying to get at?" "Like, oh, I'm trying to say that they're like a jerk." I'm like, "Just call them a jerk." Brooke 52:36 Yeah, that's a good one. Shitbag is a pretty good one. Carla 52:39 Yeah, it's my favorite. Yeah, it's like, it's a good one. Let's try that. Brooke 52:45 You know, there's an activist here in town where I live that is very conscious of ableist language, and including, like mental health things. So like the word 'sane' or 'insane,' for instance, but also, some of the ones that go along with that, like 'crazy,' I think maybe 'foolish' might be in there. And I was in a, I think, a Facebook group with them. And if someone would use one of those words, they would, they had kind of a little template that they would say is, you know, you know, "Here's this word that you chose to use. Here's a little bit of like, where it comes from, or like, what, you know, the, the sort of negative history of it. And then here's a list of like, antonyms that are not, you know, ableist or sexist, or, you know, body shaming, or et cetera, et cetera, that you could use instead of that word." Yeah. Carla 53:32 Did they also point out childism? Brooke 53:36 Yeah, and I don't I don't remember that one. But this, what you were just saying that, like, I hadn't thought about childish as being one of those words. I don't think I use it a lot in general. But, you know, I'm gonna add that to my vocabulary. Carla 53:50 Yeah, like so or they're like, "the sniffling little baby?" Like they do that a lot, right? Like, comedians and sort of YouTubers and stuff that are talking about, you know, the ruling class. So they, you know... Brooke 54:06 You can call them whiny without having to say, 'whiny baby,' you can just like so they're like whiny. Carla 54:10 They're punching up and punching down at the exact same time with that, you know, definitely go after those who are horrible, fascist and racist, you know, but stop calling them 'children' and 'toddlers' and yeah, yeah. Brooke 54:29 No, I really like that, you know. The fellow that, you know, did all the work. Does all the work to point out the ableist language, you know, definitely had got me thinking in the last couple of years about other words that you know, maybe tie back to something like that and so I'm glad that you shared you know, this additional language that then I can work on and be aware of and improve. Carla 54:53 Yeah, it's, it's always we're always working on it and learning and you know, like I the ableist language off, you know, I remember, it really came into the fore around 2009--2010. Like it really, you know, in radical communities like we were really aware of first, the more physical ableist the stuff and then it moved into body mind, but I still saw the sanism stuff like, you know, it still was okay to call someone like Trump insane. Like, maybe not 'crazy,' but you could call him insane. So I've been also being loud about that one as well. Brooke 55:31 Interesting. Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of where my question came from about, you know, well could I just call them immature instead? I figured that was going to be a 'no,' but I'm really glad you have that list to share. And I might see, maybe, could email that list and I can see if we can get that posted up. Carla 55:46 Sure and it's at on Grounded Futures. We're on both Twitter and Instagram, just at Grounded Futures. It's a platform, multi art platform created by youth and women and gender nonconforming folks. Brooke 56:03 Cool. Well, while you're plugging things, are there other things that you want to plug, obviously your book, you got to replug that for us. Carla 56:11 Yeah, you can get "Trust Kids" over at AK Press or wherever you buy books. There's an audio book and a Kindle or whatever it is. And I also have a project called Listening House Media, where we do we do mostly audiobooks, but we also publish political pamphlets called Lowercase. You can check that out listeninghousemedia.com. I'm doing the audio book for my other book called "Joyful Militancy" right now, which is really exciting. I just want to put that out there. Because I know people wanted it to be an audio book, since it came out five years ago. And so that's really exciting. Brooke 56:49 Is that also available from AK? Carla 56:51 Yeah, it won't probably be out until like, January or February. But yeah, and then GoundedFutures.com is where you can find a lot of my other works. Yeah. Brooke 57:02 Great, well, Carla, I really appreciate you being on the pod today and talking with us about parenting and ending adult supremacy. To our listeners, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoy our podcast, please give it a like, drop a comment or a review. Subscribe to us if you haven't already. These things make the algorithms that rule our world offer our show to more people. This podcast is produced by the anarchist publishing collective Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can connect with us on Twitter @TangledWild and also on Instagram. If you check out our website tangledwilderness.org you'll discover we have a new book available for preorder. It's called "Escape from Incel Island" written by the one and only Margaret Killjoy. If you preorder it nowj, you get a color poster with your copy when they ship in February. The work of Strangers is made entirely possible by our Patreon supporters. Honestly, we couldn't do any of it without your help. So if you want to become a supporter, check out patreon.com/strangersInatangledwilderness. Yes, it's a long one that's patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. There are cool benefits at various support tiers. For instance, if you support the collective at $10 a month, one of your benefits is getting 40% off of everything on our website, including if you want to preorder Margaret's new book, and we'd like to give a specific shout out to some of our most supportive Patreon supporters, including Hoss dog, Michaiah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Kat J., Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, Theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Melissia, Paparouna, and Aly, thanks so much for listening Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co
Episode Summary Brooke, Casandra, and Margaret talk about some laws that the ATF just imposed and how you might soon be a felon, some bizarre tax proposals that have been in the works for the last quarter of a century, and check in our old friend, the Colorado River in This Month in the Apocalypse. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Casandra is just great and can be found at Strangers doing awesome layouts, and Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Next Episode Hopefully will come out Friday, Feb. 24th Transcript This Month in the Apocalypse: Jan. 2023 Margaret 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live like the world is dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm one of your today's hosts, Margaret killjoy, and with me are also Brooke and Casandra. How are you too? Brooke 00:25 Hello. Casandra 00:26 Good. Margaret 00:28 Joining me in the background, hopefully that we can't hear, is my dog, Rintrah, scratching at the carpet. So, this is one of the This Month in the Apocalypse episodes, as you probably noticed based on the title of it, which was This Month in the Apocalypse, and it is for January 2020-- whatever year it is now. Three? Are we at three. It's 2020; It's part three. And this show is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the podcast brought up about Jingle 01:03 what's up y'all I'm Pearson host of coffee with comrades. Coffee with comrades is rooted in militant joy. Our hope is to cultivate a warm and inviting atmosphere like walking into your favorite coffee shop to sit down with some of your close friends and share a heart to heart conversation. New episodes premiere every Tuesday, so be sure to smash that subscribe button wherever you get your podcast so that you never miss an episode. We are proud to be a part of the Channel Zero network. Margaret 01:56 And this show is a proud member of the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, sort of network, publisher thing. Here's a jingle for another show on this network or publisher. Boop boop boop boop, boop. Casandra 02:13 Since I don't have this yet, are you just gonna make one up right now? Margaret 02:19 You know, I think we might have jingles, but I'll make one up anyway. Do you like nerd shit? Are you a fucking loser? Do you spend more of your time thinking about the way that character classes in Dungeons and Dragons relate to the current meta of whatever game system you play? Do you know more about what I'm talking about than me right now? Then, you might like an Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is a new show from Strangers in the Tangled Wilderness where we talk about nerd shit. The first episode is up already and there might be more, I don't know how, I'm not the one making them. First episodes is talking about all about that show Andor and there's gonna be a bunch of other shows that talk about other shows. If you're a fucking nerd and know what the word THACO means. Casandra 03:11 Wait, I'm a nerd and I don't know what that means. Margaret 03:13 I know it's a second edition Dungeon & Dragons thing. It's actually an are you an older millennial or Gen Xer, I think is the actual gatekeeping I just did there by accident. Really just ruining everything. It means "To hit armor class zero." What I Casandra 03:28 I started playing with third edition. Brooke 03:33 I have another new podcast idea to pitch to y'all. But we don't have to do it during This Month. Margaret 03:38 Okay, well, now this is an actual jingle. This...it actually exists. Okay. And that's the end of the jingle ba bop, bop, bop bop. Margaret 03:53 And we're back. Thanks, to the regular show called Live Like the World is Dying. I do too many podcasts. I'm gonna fuck this up at some point. Welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. Today, the cool person we're talking about is at the end of the world. Brooke 04:14 This is what I get for declining to do the intro, isn't it? This is my reward? Margaret 04:19 Yeah. Brooke was like, "I'm tired." And I was like, I'm not. I'm wired on fake energy. Which, isn't even caffeine. I don't even drink caffeine. So what we're going to talk about today is we're talking about a bunch of different stuff. The main topic that I have to talk about today. Have y'all ever heard of this agency that thinks is in charge of us? It's called the government. Brooke 04:44 Vaguely vaguely familar with it. Yeah. Margaret 04:47 I think different geographical locations have different gangs that have gotten together and declared themselves in charge. And they all use the word government once they get bigger than the word gang. The United States federal government, which is the name of the largest gang operating in the territory of central North America has a has a subgroup and they are committed to, you'd think that they'd be really cool, because their name is Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. So, it sounds like fun, right? I mean, actually, these things don't go well together and the middle one mostly just murders you. Actually, all three of them are...Okay, I see why there's a regulating body that people set up. But the ATF are notorious for being kind of...I don't know a government body that comes after you, if you like, do things that they decide that they don't like. And they like to be very mercurial about that. And on January 13th, they announced a new rule that will turn millions of Americans into felons in 120 days, so. Rintrah is really concerned about everyone's gun rights. So, I have a very complicated relationship with guns. I, you know, as people know, I use them sometimes, and I carry them and have ever since I got doxxed, by the far right. And I believe that community defense is very important. I'm also however, very critical of a lot of things about guns. So, I just want to like preface. Before I talk about guns for a whole fucking chunk of this episode, I want to say that I believe very strongly that if your firearm is not on you, at any given moment, it needs to be locked up. And this is something that used to be more abstract for me and is not abstract anymore. And and I'm going to be on about this for a long ass time. That is the safe way, if you are carrying a firearm, you're probably doing so because you want you or your community to be safer and or better fed. And if you don't lock your guns up, when you're not holding on to them, you are not making your community safer, you're making your community less safe. And that is the kind of balance that everyone needs to have at all times if they choose to carry firearms, and if it fucking matters. So, that has nothing to do with the ATF. Because.... Casandra 07:25 I was preparing myself for it to be a rule about keeping guns locked up. Margaret 07:28 No, it has nothing to do with guns locked up. So y'all ever heard of the NFA? Or tax stamps? This is like, gun law bullshit? Brooke 07:41 Well, nope. Margaret 07:42 The National Firearms Act was passed in....And I'll cut to the chase, and then I'll go back and tell you the history. So there's this thing, where you can take a firearm, an AR style firearm is the most common gun by a substantial margin in the United States, as far as I understand at least rifle, and you can, if you have a shorter barrel on it, there's two different classifications, there's a short barreled rifle, which is illegal without specific and ATF approval, which I'll get to why that's actually bullshit shortly. And second, or you can have it be a pistol. And instead of putting a stock on it, you can put something called a pistol brace, which is originally designed so that people who have like, less mobility or missing a limb or things like that can successfully use this style of firearm. And these are fairly new objects, you have something called AR pistols, and they're very common. They're very popular. The ATF estimates that three to 7 million pistol braces have sold in the past 10 years since pistol braces came on the market in 2013. And when they first came on the market, it's okay, it's some loophole bullshit. Mostly, I mean, you can use it as is intended. Well, you could use it as is marketed, which is for being able to fire with one hand in a more stabilized way. Or you can use it as people tend to use it, which is to be able to shoulder a pistol, and so fire more accurately with something that is classified legally differently. Brooke 09:19 Makes sense. Margaret 09:20 Yeah. But before they like went ahead and like marketed this thing, they went and checked in 2013. They were like, "Hey, is this chill, ATF? Can we make this thing and sell it?" And the ATF was like, "Yeah," and then they went back and forth a couple times. By 2017, not only could you sell it, but it was also legal for people to shoulder a pistol in this way. And that that would not make you a felon by shooting this gun that you own legally. Casandra 09:48 What are the concerns like why? Why wouldn't it be a good idea or legal? Margaret 09:54 There's literally...there's fundamentally none, but we'll get...Okay. So I'll get to the where short barreled rifles come from as a classification. Okay, so and then on January 13, the ATF ruled that this is not true that this is not a pistol. If you have a pistol brace on an AR pistol, it is now a short barreled rifle. And this is on some level a reasonable thing, right? Because they are short barreled rifles, that's what they are. You, you shoulder them, you shoot them. Whatever, I don't, someone's gonna get really mad at me about this. But, we were all like, wink, wink, nudge nudge, I never fucking came anywhere near one of these things, because I was like this is gonna get...this is gonna go badly. So I never got one, right? Because it was perfectly legal. But now everyone has 120 days to either register the item with the government, destroy it, or turn it into the ATF, or put a longer barrel on the gun. And the thing that's really messy about this, is that they told people that this was fine. This was good. And everyone tried to cross their t's and dot their i's, which isn't what you're supposed to do. But that's what they tried to do. And and now basically, they like, you have to turn them in or you're in a lot of trouble. It's a 10 year. If you break the NFA it's a ten year felony. It's a 10 year felony. And if you're a felon, you can never use firearms, again legally in the United States. Which if you're the kind of person to collect firearms is a fairly major impact, besides of course, the 10 years that you might lose off your life. Casandra 11:28 Wait, so sorry. I'm not familiar with any of this. So short barreled rifles are disallowed? Margaret 11:36 Correct. Casandra 11:36 And they reclassified this other thing as a short barrelled rifle? Margaret 11:41 Yeah. And it's just this incredibly popular thing. And it's mostly.... Casandra 11:47 I didn't catch that short barraled rifles were disallowed, and was like it's just a classification, what matters? Brooke 11:51 Yeah, no, it's confusing. Margaret 11:55 So, the reason that short barreled rifles are disallowed is leftover nonsense. In 1934, the federal government was like, we want people to not really have guns in the US anymore, if at all possible. There's an amendment in the Constitution that prevents that from happening. So they were like, alright, well, we'll make it really hard. So, they passed this thing were called the the NFA, the National Firearms Act, where you have, you have to pay a $200 tax, you have to get buy a tax stamp. it's just a thing that says I paid $200, which was about $4,000 at the time. Equivalently. They didn't actually write into the law that this would escalate with inflation. So it's still $200 if you want an NFA iteam. And they specifically they were like, we want all the stuff that's used for crime by evil gangsters. So, they wanted to get rid of machine guns, which is honestly,reasonable. They wanted to get rid of pistols. And like all handguns, were going to be illegal. And then they were like, well, if we make our handguns illegal, then people are just going to chop chop down their their little rifle or shotgun, and they're going to suddenly have a pistol, right? So, we'll make short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns also illegal, or things that you have to register with the government and pay a hefty tax stamp for. Then some people were like, but we have this thing called the Second Amendment. You can't outlaw these guns. So pistols got knocked off of it, but they didn't knock off short barreled rifles. Casandra 13:33 Why? Margaret 13:34 Because they didn't bother. Casandra 13:37 Interesting. Margaret 13:38 So a short barreled rifle is a like contraband item unless you go and you register it and you jump through all these hoops. The other thing is you have to fill out all this paperwork, and then wait like sometimes years in order to get this and the other thing they made illegal at this time was suppressors and suppressors, I will go to my grave believing should never have been. They are an element of gun safety. The ability to suppress the sound of a firearm makes it safer for everyone. It is a better object. It does not make the gun more dangerous. It also doesn't make it quiet. Everyone's like oh yeah, you can like run around James Bond style. It's just like not true if you shoot a suppressed gun. I mean, there's like a few tiny exceptions where if you like really work with subsonic, ammo and .22 And all this shit you can like, make it quiet. But like a suppressed gun just sounds like a gun. It's loud. It goes bang, you can hear from a long ways off. It just doesn't permanently destroy your hearing and give you tinnitus as much. Most of them you still have to wear ear protection for. It's just a fucking...anyway, whatever. That's not what we're talking about today. So, yeah, so that's why they made it....short barreled rifles illegal or much harder to come by. And it makes no sense. It never made any sense. Go ahead. Casandra 14:57 What is it? I know it doesn't make sense. Like it sounds I was like, someone who does paperwork was like let's reclassify this thing. But like, what is their justification? Like, why are they saying it makes sense? Margaret 15:10 Why are they reclassifying AR pistol to a short barreled rifle? Or why do they defend that short barreled rifles are illegal? Casandra 15:17 I think I understand the former. Maybe the latter. Margaret 15:21 So at the time, it literally was just it's closer to a pistol. That was the justification, they wanted to get rid of pistols, so that therefore they got rid of short barrel rifles. The argument being concealability. Casandra 15:36 But at this point in history, there isn't really a justification? Margaret 15:39 There's no justification. It's you can have a full length rifle and you can have a small handgun and you can't have in between. It is. Well, that's. So that's what I think that...there are a lot of cases to be made against guns and gun ownership. And I am like not trying to eventually become some like a gun nut talking head. But like, this is something that people whose primary concern or like one of their concerns is as firearms and firearm law. This is something that I think they wish people understood. The law is incredibly Kafka esque, and nonsensical, and labyrinth and like, just bizarre. And so whenever they're like, "Oh, we're gonna pass this new gun control law," everyone's sitting there being like, "Oh, God, it's going to be some other weird, crazy loophole, where if you don't do all of the following things, you're a felon." And what they've done now is they've gone back and made everyone felons in reverse. And I think it's fucked up. Casandra 16:43 That's wild that that's possible to retroactively make that many people felons. Brooke 16:50 It just it sounds like these these ATF peoples aren't very good at the F part of their ATF. Margaret 17:03 Like they're drinking and smoking, but they forgot to go shoot guns? Brooke 17:07 Yeah, like, I don't know about the A and the T shit that they do. But they sound like they're really fucking up the F part. Margaret 17:12 I mean, like, and this is like, the ATF is like all of the gun people's like boogeyman, right? Like, because they like, they keep track of people for potentially breaking specific laws, like, right, for example, like straw sales are illegal, I can't go to the store and buy a gun with the intention of turning around and selling it. Even though, in many states, and I think this is reasonable, that's fine. It's a way to skirt the law. In most, in many states, you can privately sell a firearm from one person to another. But if you go to a store in order to buy a gun in order to turn around and sell it, at this point, you're an arms dealer, and you like should have and so the people buying it from you should have to go through background checks and shit like that, right? At least from a legal point of view. So what the ATF sometimes does is they keep track of anyone who buys a whole bunch of guns at once, or a whole bunch of guns over some period of time. And they just like show up on that at your house and be like, "Hey, Where's all your guns? We wanna see them. And we want to prove you didn't sell any of them." Even though, if you buy a bunch of guns, for your own sake, and then turn around and sell some of them because you don't want them anymore, that is usually legal. And so there's kind of some like thought police stuff that has to go in because they have to prove intent and all this like weird shit. So the ATF is this like boogeyman that everyone's like weird about anyway. And then the other new thing that I'm a little bit less confident about, I've seen some stuff about this, that also has people up in arms is that with these NFA items, previously, NFA items being the short barreled rifle or a fully automatic weapon, right? It is legal as a as a citizen to own fully automatic weapons in certain contexts, right, if you fill out certain paperwork, you know, use them in certain environments, things like that. It's usually basically rich people have them because you have to buy ones that are from like before a ban and they so they there's like only a certain number of them that are available in the civilian market. So they just become more more expensive, which is always what the NFA was, of course was a tax on...so it was like poor people can have guns. Rich people get to have guns. And so there was this thing that the ATF...no go ahead. Casandra 19:26 I just think about how the justification originally was like, "We don't want mobsters to have access to these things," when when they were probably the only ones who could afford them at that point. Margaret 19:35 That's so true. Fuck. Casandra 19:38 We only want monsters to have these things. Margaret 19:41 Yeah. Yeah, if your shotgun cost $5,000....Yeah, only a certain class of people would have shotguns. No, that's such a good point. Okay, so one of the other things the NFA says that you can use...if I own...I do not On any NFA items, but if a hypothetical person were to own a short barreled rifle, if they are supervising, other people can shoot it. Because they're there. They're present, whatever. It's my short barreled rifle. And so you have this whole market of people who are like, "Yo, you want to go shoot a machine gun, like come to my range, you get to shoot a machine gun," which like sounds like fun. And these are very controlled environments, and it's perfectly fucking...Well, it's the safest shooting guns ever is. And now the NFA has like quietly changed in it's frequently asked questions of sorry, the ATF has changed on its frequently asked questions on its website, to just say, "No, only the only the person who has registered the item can be in possession of it. Can can use it." And so... Casandra 20:47 Weird. Margaret 20:48 Yeah. So like, if I have a suppressed rifle, which I don't, but I want one, I want to I want to go through the tax stamp paperwork in order to get one. Not only would it be illegal for me to let someone else use it, it would be illegal for me to store it in a way in which anyone else can access it. Like if I live somewhere and my husband has access to my gun safe, then that would be now a crime. This is more hypothetical. The other thing is very specific. And they released a fucking 300 page document about how they're going to turn everyone into felons. And everyone has 120 days. Casandra 21:26 They put so much thought into it. Margaret 21:27 Oh, yeah, they've been working on this for 10 years. And like fairly literally. This other thing is like a weird....And so the reason I want to talk about this is because like, this is a thing that is mostly being talked about in gun spaces, and is therefore mostly being talked about in center, right of center spaces. I don't want to just say right wing spaces, I think there's a lot of center and center right groups that are not like aggressively racist or something like that and are just like rural people who are into guns or whatever. And so people were really upset about it. And sometimes when we see certain types of people get really upset, we're like, "Haha, fuck you." But like, I think it is a completely legitimate thing for people to be upset about. I think this is fucked up. I think this is overreach. I think that this is like...the the sort of hope that people have is that at the very least, they'll just get rid of short barreled rifles off of the NFA list because it's nonsense. They shouldn't be there...in as much as....in as much as there's going to be a society I can imagine that society being like "There's a level of weapon we don't really want around here," right? Like I'm not like nukes for everyone kind of girl. And if I'm not a nukes for everyone kind of girl. Am I a machine guns for one kind of girl? I'm kind of not? I kind of just don't care. You know, like people would come at me, whatever. Like maybe it's hypocritical ofmyself, of me as an anarchist. I don't fucking know. Whatever but like, but I don't know. Whatever. That's my fucking weird gun rant. I've watched like so many like YouTube people rant about it. What's up? Casandra 23:02 That was a pristine conclusion. Margaret 23:07 It's so funny, because I'm like more anti gun this month than I am most months Brooke 23:14 Is it that you're anti gun? Or is it that you're anti ATF? Margaret 23:17 Yeah, I'm definitely anti ATF. Unless you're listening ATF, in which case I fucking love you. Don't come over, though. God that sounds sketchy than I meant it. I just....whatever. Anyway, that's the main thing I had that I had to talk about about January. This not the most important thing happening, but it is a big thing but you have some other stuff that you want to talk about, right? Brooke 23:42 I do and I like don't even know where to go to there from here. Oh, man. Well, I guess we can talk about.... Margaret 23:50 Well, speaking of tax stamps and tax.... Brooke 23:54 Yeah, well done. I was gonna go for like, ridiculous government nonsense. Margaret 23:59 Oh, that's actually better and more accurate. Casandra 24:01 That's taxes. Brooke 24:02 Yeah, there you go. Yeah. So there's this act has been proposed in Congress called the Fair Tax Act. And it's ridiculous and far fetched and is not going to go anywhere. But it has come up like three different times in my own life in the last week from from different people asking me about it and asking me what's up with it and I even had to kind of walked my mom through what was going on with this too, cuz she was talking about it. Hi, mom, if you're listening. Margaret 24:39 Hi, mom. Hi, Brooke's mom. Brooke 24:44 Nice. So this tax act is a Republican act. And the succinct version of it is that they want to abolish the IRS in its entirety and institute a 30% national Sales Tax. Margaret 25:01 See, I was with them for the start of that sentence. Brooke 25:04 First half is great. Stop there. We're good. Yeah, so that would get rid of income tax, and payroll tax, estate tax, gift tax. I mean, the whole stupid, ridiculous tax system that we have would go away. Casandra 25:16 I thought it was in addition to state taxes? Brooke 25:20 No. Casandra 25:21 Oh, interesting. Brooke 25:21 Well, I guess, I guess I don't know if they can regulate state income taxes and all of that. Margaret 25:26 Not without a war. Brooke 25:28 Yeah. So. Margaret 25:30 Anyway. Brooke 25:33 Anyway, and if so...so it's a 30% national sales tax on all goods and services purchased, which, interestingly, some of the Republicant's have tried to call it a 23% Tax. Because, they're playing with the way the math is presented. Alright, quick math lesson. Margaret 25:54 Oh, is it the which direction? Okay, yeah. Give us the math lesson. Casandra 25:57 Numbers. Numbers are arbitrary. Is that the lesson? Brooke 26:02 You can use math to lie. That's the lesson. Margaret 26:05 Yay! Brooke 26:06 Yeah. Yeah. So if you have to buy something that's $100. Let's say just for a nice round number, and there's a 30% tax on it, you're gonna pay $130 for that item. And most of us look at that and go, that's a 30% tax. Margaret 26:22 Right. Casandra 26:22 Cause it is. Brooke 26:24 Right. But... Margaret 26:26 If you reversed it. Brooke 26:27 Yeah, exactly. Casandra 26:29 What? Brooke 26:29 $30 is 23% of $130. Margaret 26:35 Heh, heh heh. Brooke 26:39 So if you just pretend that the item costs $130 Then you can claim that you're only charging a 23% tax. Margaret 26:46 Because 23% of that is tax Brooke 26:50 Of that $130. Casandra 26:53 I want to know how I missed the like stereotypical autistic person thing of understanding math. Brooke 27:03 Yeah, the thing that that was that some people were like, "Well, it's only 23%," but they're just lying with...they're just using math to lie. Casandra 27:13 23%? Was that only? Margaret 27:15 I know exactly. Like, that's a lot of my money. Casandra 27:19 Still doesn't make sense. I mean, there's been Brooke 27:21 130% I guess. Margaret 27:23 I mean, as a freelancer I pay some fuck off high percentage of my income in taxes. I don't even remember. Casandra 27:29 As an Oregonian, I don't pay sales tax. Brooke 27:32 Yeah, so any sale's tax is like "Fuck you you, world." Margaret 27:40 This is the real tyranny. So why do right wing people want this? Like, is it because it helps the rich because they're not paying a state tax or whatever and it's like... Casandra 27:49 And why is it repeatedly brought up? Brooke 27:51 Yeah, so it's...it would be a flat rate tax on like a current system, which is it's called a progressive tax system. And please don't confuse progressive with like the liberal sense of the word progressive, but progressive as in like graduated taxes we have now. Poor people pay less, richer people pay more. You pay tax as you progress in income. Casandra 28:13 So, this is a fuck poor people? Brooke 28:20 Well, the flat rate tax would be simpler than the progressive system. And allegedly, under the current proposal, low income individuals could apply once a month for a rebate on some of the tax that they spent. Margaret 28:34 Oh yeah, with all of that free time that poor people have. Brooke 28:37 Yeah, exactly. Casandra 28:38 What if I mean, if it were actually to pass, how much do you want to bet that the rebate would just be on like yachts? Brooke 28:48 Yeah, yeah. Under the system, everyone ends up paying more in tax except for the wealthiest 5% of Americans who actually end up paying less in taxes overall. But yeah, as you just alluded to Casandra, this is like not the first time this idea has come up. In fact, it has been introduced in Congress every single year since 1999. Casandra 29:12 Really? Brooke 29:14 Yep. Casandra 29:14 Why? Why. Margaret 29:15 Is it just some guy? Casandra 29:19 No, why are people making such a big deal out of it this time? Brooke 29:22 Yeah, solid question. Casandra 29:24 Because it's so Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Brooke 29:28 Hypotheses are welcome. It has no more chance of passing right now than it has the last 24 times it has been introduced. But there's a larger contingent of right wing extremists who are behind it like 30ish people this year. Margaret 29:43 Uuuuhm, 23..... Brooke 29:52 Okay, so it's, you know, there's enough support for it that it is garnering more attention. It's not just one or two people throwing it out there. And it anytime there's been kind of this larger contingent of more extreme right wing people in Congress it has gotten attention in the news media. So, like when the Tea Party folks came into Congress, it got proposed that year as it has every single year, and it made the news a little bit more than because they were more supportive than usual. Casandra 30:26 So is it just like Margaret said, is it just some guy is it? Is it the far right just like fucking with our understanding of normalcy, like the Overton window? Brooke 30:38 Yeah, probably. That's part of it. I mean, it made news in '99, when it was first introduced. And I couldn't tell you exactly how many times it made any kind of major news between then and now, except for when the Tea Party folks came into power. Casandra 30:54 Do youever look back and think like, we used to just have a Tea Party, you know? Brooke 30:59 Yes, do. Yeah, okay. So I couldn't...go ahead. Margaret 31:06 I, it's so hard, because it's like, there is a part of me, like, I hate how complicated our tax system is, right? So I could understand this appealing if you don't think it through, right? Because then you're like, well, it's just based on how much you actually spend, and not what you make at work or whatever, you know. Because like, I fucking hate turning around and giving some percent of my tax that I can never keep track of, to the government. Basically, just every April, I'm like, there goes all my money. And now every quarter there goes all my money. And like, so I get the appeal of it. And it's so frustrating, because I feel like they're tapping into something that's like real, which is people's frustration with the tax system in this country, like you explained to other....I am under the impression I have seen on the internet, that people from other countries are like, What the fuck is wrong with you? What do you mean the government just like? Because it's like, you go to a restaurant and you order food. And then they're like,"Alright, pay me now." And you're like, "How much is the food?" And they're like, "Yeah, I mean, you can figure that out. And if you get it wrong, you go to prison." That sucks. I'm never going to that restaurant again. Like, if the government and I know the government can can give me a bill with a number because sometimes I underpay and they send me a bill with a number. And sometimes I overpay and they send me money back. They know the number. Just fucking tell it to me and I will pay I will. I would begrudge taxes so much less if it wasn't just this weird dance of fucking death with the goddamn government. Anyway. Brooke 32:42 You're totally fair. I have spent countless hours getting tax stuff done. Now, I spent 10 hours yesterday doing tax stuff for various things. That's just what I'm going to do for the next few months is spend a whole lot of time with taxes. Margaret 32:58 Can we call it the Illuminati tax because the number 23? Or is that bad because anything related....anyway...conspiracies. Brooke 33:06 We can call the buddy tax. Because the fella whose turn it was to introduce it this year is Earl Leroy Carter, whose nickname is Buddy from Georgia. Casandra 33:17 Leroy. Leroy is such a good name. Margaret 33:21 But, Buddy is the name of someone who's too old to be in government. Brooke 33:25 Right! Like I had to look at a picture of the dude and he's exactly what you think he looks like. Margaret 33:30 If your nickname is Dick, you are too old to be in the government. If your nickname is Buddy, you're too old to be in government. Maybe. Okay, wait, wait I want to say older people deserve representation too. The entire government should not be run by people who are all of one generation that is much older. That's how I'm going to walk back from ageism. Yeah, totally anger issues Yeah. Brooke 34:03 Oh, I just it was Buddy's turn to draw the short straw I guess because he hasn't....It hasn't been him every year. it's been different folks in different years. He's only been in the US Congress for five or six years or something like that. So, I don't know if they just start off the governmenting season with a you know, drawing straws or... Casandra 34:30 It's some sort of hazing ritual. To be part of the crew you have to like propose this ridiculous thing and everyone will hate you for it. Margaret 34:43 Like I don't even want this. It's just literally their hazing. Brooke 34:50 Alright, whose turn is it to bring out the old Unfair Tax Act law and abolish the IRS this year. Margaret 34:58 Which is funny because it's like I mean, I just went on this rant about how we should abolish the ATF. Brooke 35:06 Anyway, yeah, Margaret 35:08 I get so frustrated by the..... Casandra 35:11 Like you're almost there. You almost reached to the point.. Margaret 35:15 Yeah, and they go on down this wild side path where they're like and and then they wander off into the fucking.... Brooke 35:24 The other part of it is that 30% probably is not quite enough of a tax to replace the income that they currently get from the tax system. So, it would probably actually have to be higher than that to work. Casandra 35:39 It's just while to be thinking about...whatever...how the fuck much we all pay in taxes and what happens with that money and what doesn't happen with money. And who doesn't pay taxes. Margaret 35:51 All of you listening who are anti gun, but pay taxes I have. I have bad news for you. You buy so many more guns than any like than anyone who lives in any other country. Because half of your money is just guns. Brooke 36:07 Fucking US military. Hey, speaking of government brutality. The second topic I have, is that there's some news that's gonna drop tonight. The night of the stay that we are sitting here recording this episode. It hasn't been released yet. Margaret 36:26 So it'd be like last week or the week before for you all? Brooke 36:28 Yeah, exactly. And it has the potential to spark some George Floyd esque levels of protests. It's the body cam video footage from early January of the traffic stop and the brutal arrest of Tyre Nichols, a 29 year old Tennessee man who died as a result of the brutality he experienced that day. The descriptions of the videos that have come out from those who have seen it in advance have likened it to the 1991 video of Rodney King being beaten by the Los Angeles Police and Tyre's mother, excuse me, who hasn't seen and is not going to watch the video said that her son was beaten to a pulp by the arresting officers, of whom they were five. He was pepper sprayed, struck by a stun gun, restrained, kicked and more. And the family's attorney described the beating by saying the Tyre was used as a human pinata. So, some caution in watching those videos. Of course, if you're listening to this, it's the week after the they've been released. So either they have sparked intense rounds of protests, or they've quietly flamed out and gone down as just another act of extreme police brutality. Casandra 37:43 I was reading this morning that they were like closing parts of Memphis. Margaret 37:47 Yeah, they brought in the National Guard, right? Brooke 37:50 Yeah, the governor declared a state of emergency in preparation for the protest that will follow the release of the videos. Yeah. Yeah. Casandra 38:02 I hate that it takes the release of a video, you know? Brooke 38:07 Yeah, yeah. The five arresting officers have all been fired, and they're facing a barrage of charges, including second degree murder, aggravated assault, aggravated kidnapping, official misconduct and official oppression, which I didn't know official oppression was the thing that you could get charged with. But I think we can just go ahead and slap that on a whole bunch of government stuff while we're while we're using that one. Margaret 38:31 Yeah, that's what I say about them usually. It's like the inverse. There's a New York City law Criminal anarchy. Anyway, there you go. Casandra 38:44 I've already seen some like right wing commentary. Just people pointing out the fact that like, this is different. This isn't race based because the officers were also black. Yeah. Because systemic oppression apparently means nothing. Brooke 39:03 Yeah, and I've, you know, given in no position to speak to the race relations in this matter, and any of that, but you know, certainly is yet another example of police brutality and the indiscriminant violence that they visit upon us, Margaret 39:21 And still part of racist policing. I think that it is still fair to say that it's part of racist policing in this country, I feel like that's been laid out. This isn't like my idea. This coming from Black liberation movements for a long time that black police are capable of enacting racist violence or being part of a racist, racistly violence system. But of course, they'll use that to distract and they'll use the fact that they threw the cops under the bus, which I like wonder whether they would have thrown the cops under the bus if the cops were white. Casandra 39:54 Yep. Margaret 39:54 Yeah. And, you know, and either way they threw the cops under the bus because of trying to minimize...It's not because they don't feel good about this stuff happening because the police do. But because they like, want people to not riot. And sometimes, they'll, you know, that's how afraid they are. I feel like you can you can see how afraid the system is based on how it handles the cops who enact violence. It's almost they're afraid this time. Which is good. They should be. Brooke 40:32 Yeah, it sounds like it's going to be some real ugly video, and I am planning to watch it. But, a trigger warning on myself. Margaret 40:43 Yeah. Brooke 40:46 Well, I've got one more topic. It's kind of following up on on an old friend of ours, the Colorado River. Margaret 40:53 Oh, yeah. Brooke 40:53 Just because it was in the news a bit recently. Margaret 40:56 How he doing? He doing good? Brooke 40:58 Yeah, everything's great with with Old Colorado. He's feeding the seven states and, you know, everything's fine. So that's my update. Margaret 41:11 Great.Tell me the bad news. Brooke 41:13 Yeah. So, Lake Mead, which we've talked about, in at least a couple of episodes, it provides water to, and electricity to Arizona, Nevada, and just a little old area called Southern California. And currently, right now, it's at its lowest point that it has been since 1935. And it has been at its lowest point since 1935, for about two years now. And it keeps getting lower, which is the decline of the lake is consistent with the overall decline of the water levels in the whole river, which is a significant source of water, also for Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, and New Mexico. And the reason that it's extra in the news at the moment is that these seven states that all depend on the Colorado River, have collectively worked together for, I guess, more than 100 years to kind of manage the water and it's resources and decide how to allocate it. And the federal government has tasked them a couple of times in the last year, to come up with a plan for reducing their water usage and for, you know, kind of this emergency scenario, because it's getting so very low. And for the second time, in the last year, the states have failed to come up with a plan together despite their, you know, century of working together. So the Interior Department of the federal government is probably going to have to step in and impose water usage cuts on the states in order to prevent...well, I mean, it's still gonna be pretty devastating, but in order to, you know, mitigate, who's getting how much of the devastation. Margaret 42:52 Well I bet that will go smoothly. Brooke 42:54 Yeah, they're not already having, you know, legal challenges and, you know, threatens of sue, and lots of lawyers and private organizations and stuff involved. Margaret 43:05 And if there's one thing I mean, what's that saying? Thirsty people don't fight over water. Casandra 43:12 Exactly how it goes. Brooke 43:16 It'll be fine. Margaret 43:17 Yeah. Casandra 43:17 Meanwhile, in other parts of California there's like massive flooding. And they're already predicting a produce shortages for the rest of the year. Yeah. Brooke 43:27 Yeah, great. Need. So too much water in the north, too little water in the South? Crops? Fucked. Margaret 43:37 Yay! Brooke 43:38 Excellent. Yeah. Now the thing that people like to to raise the the alarm about, especially with Lake Mead is that it feeds the Hoover Dam. And if the water level gets too low in the lake, you're not gonna be able to power the dam. But it's not actually really looking like it's, that's going to happen soon. They're still probably a few years before it would get that low. And this is based on like me pulling all of the data and looking at the worst case scenarios of the water levels. And that's, you know, I'm not a climatologist. So I can't tell you about other things that might happen. But just in terms of the trends of the decline in the water. Now, of course, that means I'll have two years to ignore it, and then still freak out and panic and fuck everything up at the last minute. Margaret 44:29 No, no, they'll like, get it together. That's why we have governments that are really good at doing stuff in a timely fashion and addressing the big the big issues. Casandra 44:40 Governments make everything more efficient. Margaret 44:42 Yeah. Yeah. Without it it'd be total anarchy, Brooke 44:47 Lies, damn lies from governments. All right, what's happening in the world, Margaret? What's happening outside our little bubble? Margaret 44:58 It's about California. My first one. Alright, so California.... Casandra 45:04 None of us live in California, for the record. Margaret 45:09 So okay, what is it? There's a bill, Assembly Bill 92 in California. I have no idea whether this is likely to pass. This the thing. I think that I actually fall into this too. Whenever we see like, "Oh, there's this new bill, and it's fucked up." Everyone's like, "Oh, fuck, they're gonna," you know, there'd be a bill that's like, "Murder every seventh child," and people be like, "Oh, fuck," you know, and like, and then usually those bills don't pass. And so we feel a little bit like wolf cry'ey when we're like....like all the anti trans bills that are happening right now. Right? Like Virginia actually just shut one down. And I wish, I should have. I should focus more on some of the positive news for these things. Virginia, just shut one down. Like it didn't even go to vote. People were like, "Nah, we're good." And but, I don't even think it was a statewide one. I don't know, whatever. It's like, these things do get defeated all the time. But people propose all this wild shit, like, the 23 people tax. Well, I know. But if you start with the 30 people who propose it, and then you say, we'll pass the tax, if we get to execute seven of you. ...You know, I'd be willing to like give it a shot for a little while. Brooke 46:18 A shot. Margaret 46:21 Which, they'd be in trouble if they lived in California if this bill passes, because California is trying to pass a bill, or some people in California trying to pass a bill banning civilian possession of armor. Casandra 46:34 Body armor? Margaret 46:35 And I think that... Casandra 46:36 Which i'm just like, wow. Why? I always wonder how....like, they must have to have some sort of justification for proposing bills like this. And I just like, what is it? Margaret 46:47 So, there's justification for proposing this is that several other mass shooters have worn body armor in the past couple of mass shootings. This, to me is like, the crystal clear distillation of like, doing law wrong, you know, is like being like, well, you can't protect yourself from bullets beecause some people who want to kill people might protect themselves from bullets. Casandra 47:14 But if we pass a law about it, those people who want to kill people will definitely follow the law. Margaret 47:18 Yeah. That's the best thing about law is that the only people who follow it are criminals, and everyone else is free. Actually, what's really funny is in a weird way, because of selective enforcement, as it's like, you know, it's like, if you're breaking some other laws it's the only time you get in trouble for certain laws. But, yeah, so they're trying to pass a bill outlawing body armor, and I think it is fucked up. That's.... Casandra 47:44 That's wild. Most of the mass shooters are men. We could just outlaw them. Margaret 47:50 You know, I see no counter argument that can be made. Brooke 47:57 Let's put them in cages. Breeding stock only. Margaret 48:04 The 1960s called they want their science fiction back. But they can't have it because it's funny. So, there's that. There's a diabetes med that's in shortage called ozempic. And it's in shortage because a version of it got popular for weight loss. The same drug is used is produced by the same manufacturer at a higher dosage called wegovy. I don't know, the dumbest names in the world are the names of prescription drugs. Casandra 48:37 Yeah. That's someone's job Margaret 48:40 I know, I'm so jealous of whoever's job that is. Like, I write fantasy characters for a living, I could do that job. No, that's not true. Because like, fantasy authors always go for like, Alright, we're gonna take a normal name like John and we're gonna, like spell it weird. Or add an 'e' in the middle or something. And like, this isn't called like, 'insaloon.' You know, it's not just 'insulin' with a different pronunciation. It's fucking orginal. Ozempic? Wegovy? it doesn't even look like it's some other language. It just looks like...you look at that, and you're like, that's a prescription drug. Casandra 49:19 That means we need to hire a sci fi author to do the job. Margaret 49:23 Yeah, okay. All right. Well, since I'm out of that job. People at the World Economic Forum in Davos are predicting major cyber attacks in 2023 and or 2024, DDoS attacks, denial of service attacks, like where they flood an IP to shut it down. Those increased 79% last year. Brooke 49:44 Wow. Margaret 49:45 And something like 49% of like major economic things that do all the manufacturing etc. are like vulnerable or like, particularly not hardened to cyber attacks. You know, we had the thing couple years ago where like, you couldn't get couldn't get gas in part of the Mid Atlantic because of a cyber attack. Brooke 50:03 Oh, yeah. Margaret 50:04 So anyway, so there's that to look forward to. In the most depressing news that no one ever wants to admit or think about, Germany's Minister of Health says that all signs point towards COVID putting people at risk for incurable immune deficiencies. The studies are not final. But there's just more and more mounting evidence coming in from all different corners about how we should be taking COVID Seriously. And again, not to put that impetus on like, as much the individuals, but like, wouldn't it be cool if some of our tax money paid for i dunno, HVAC systems for schools? Brooke 50:43 Weird. Margaret 50:44 Wouldn't that be just like...Oh, yes. And the other thing that happened, I didn't write this in my notes. But one of the main things that I saw this fucking month is at the World Economic Forum in Davos, the windows were open, there was HEPA filters in every room, everyone tested at the door. The people in the audience wore masks, because the world leaders know that it's fucking real. Casandra 51:03 Yep. Brooke 51:05 But, but, but didn't we just decided it ended it here in the US? Didn't we just declare that? Margaret 51:10 Oh, no, we extended it till April. Brooke 51:13 Okay. Margaret 51:13 It's over in April. Yeah. Brooke 51:16 Except not the SNAP benefits. Margaret 51:18 No, the SNAP benefits. That is the next thing I had on my list. That's very good. The SNAP benefits, which I still in my head to call food stamps, but maybe you're not supposed to. But in case you're don't know what SNAP means the extended benefits that people got during the COVID pandemic are going to expire in March. So, February is the last month of the extended benefits. Sorry, sucks to be poor. Hope you don't die of the...this is me and my government voice not me and my voice....Hope you don't just...well, actually, we do want you to just go back to work and die for the economy. Speaking of people willing to die for the economy, Bolsonaro's right wing idiots stormed the Capitol after he lost an election. I don't have nearly as much as Brazil. I don't have nearly as much information about that as I wish I did prepared because...I...because this is the speed round. Speed Round. There should be like a little sound effect. Too too, zoo zoo. On the other hand, I like other people when they storm government institutions, and left wing people in Peru are doing are like also uprising. And I think that's good. Because I hate that we let....the when people are like "The insurrectionists and the seditioutionists," and I'm like "Hey, now. That's some of my best friends." What else? Oh, and Pakistan has been having massive, after their fucking floods that we talked about last year, they've been having massive blackouts. There was like to 220 million people without power for a while. And it's basically old fucked up infrastructure that is fucking them up. And that...either of you have Lightning Rounds? Brooke 53:05 No, I don't pay attention to the news. I'm doing taxes. Margaret 53:10 Oh, yeah. Okay, well, that's the end of our lightning round. Brooke 53:15 Pew pew peeew. Margaret 53:23 And that is This Month in the Apocalypse. And if there's something we missed, there isn't. And if you think something happened that was bad, it didn't happen. Or we would have covered it.I see no flaw in that logic and I think you all are gonna have to learn to understand that that's just the way it is. So, but if you want to hear us tell you everything that's happening and....whatever, if you want to support this podcast, you should do so by supporting us on Patreon. Our Patreon is patreon.com/.... not Live like the world is dying...shit. We are Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. That's right Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness because this is published by Strangers in Tangled Wilderness. And if you support us on Patreon, we'll mail you a zine every month if you support is a certain level. Otherwise, you'll get like discounts on all our stuff including my new book that's probably out by the time y'all hear this called Escape from Incel Island, which is about people doing what it says on the cover. I tend to be fairly literal with some of my naming conventions, with amazing cover art by Jonas Goonface. And you can go get that from Tangledwilderness.org or wherever you buy books. I mean, eventually you can get from wherever you buy books. Right now you can...well I don't know book distribution's weird? So you should support us at Patreon: patreon.com/Strangersintangledwilderness and also in particular, we would like to thank some of our patrons we would like to thank Aly and Paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, Theo, Hunter, Sean, SJ, Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J, Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Micaiah, Hoss the dog, and Hans, maybe Jan's, I usually write the pronunciation ahead of time. 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Episode Summary Margaret and Nadia talk about harm reduction, what it is, how it relates to community preparedness, strategies for including harm reduction in your preparedness routines, and a little bit of history and legality as relates to different kinds of drug use. Guest Info Nadia works with Next Distro and can be found at https://nextdistro.org/ Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript LLWD: Nadia on Harm Reduction Margaret 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Margaret killjoy. And today, I am really excited about this episode, I think you'll all get a lot out of it. I guess I say that every time but I wouldn't record these episodes, if I didn't think you would get a lot out of them. Today, we are talking about harm reduction. And we were talking about preparedness that includes drug users. Because, if you think you don't know any drug users, you just don't know anyone who is willing to tell you that they're a drug user. And we will talk about that and a lot more. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:01 Okay, we're back. And if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns. And then kind of a little bit about your background about the kind of stuff that we're gonna be talking about today. Nadia 01:52 Yeah, sure, hey, Margaret. My name is Nadia, I use they or she pronouns. And I am a harm reductionist, a drug user. And I have both worked at in-person syringe service programs, and currently work for an online meal based program, where we ship safer drinking supplies to folks all over the country. Margaret 02:16 That's cool. So we talked about having you on, because we wanted to talk about preparedness that includes the drug users in your community, whether the person listening to this as drug user, or whether they care about drug users in their community. And I know it's a big open question, but I kind of wanted to ask you that. How prepare that? Nadia 02:45 Well, you know, I think that when we talk about prepping, disaster prepping and harm reduction, they're really similar, because it's really boils down to a risk assessment and thinking critically, right? The world isn't black and white, it's not really an easy question to answer, for example, should I evacuate or not in a disaster? Similarly, how do I protect myself as a drug user, in a world that isn't concerned about my health or safety? And you know, for people who historically lack access to resources, and healthcare, I think talking about how to prepare or what readiness looks like, is especially important. Margaret 03:28 So, I guess I kind of want to start with some of the practical questions. It's like, what are the things that one should do that are different from what one would otherwise do? Like I'm like thinking about like, even for my own sake, right. Like, I'm like, like people say, like, carry Narcan, for example, like, how does one access that? What is the shelf life on that? Is that a thing that if community like mutual aid groups or individuals who have like large stashes of things or whatever? Is it like worth having a bunch of. Is it depend on community access? Is it better to just like, specifically coordinate with existing harm reduction and like needle exchange groups in your area? Like, it seems to me that like, like, one of the prepper mindset things is like, "Oh, there's a thing I need, I should go out and get a bunch of it". Right? And my instinct here is that maybe that rather than run out and get a bunch of say, Narcan, it would be more about like, be aware of how people can access that and which groups do distribute that and then maybe have like enough for me to carry around? I don't know. Yeah, like, I guess let's start with Narcan. What's What's the Narcan? Nadia 04:40 Sure. Um, so for folks that are listening that don't know, Narcan or naloxone is a medication that will reverse an opioid overdose. And you know, it, it should be kept in a relatively temperature stable area, but there's there's been a lot of studies on it. And they have shown that it maintains its efficacy, much past expiration dates and the kind of temperature parameters. So you don't want to keep it somewhere freezing or super hot, but it is more resilient than you think. And having some naloxone is better than having none. And you mentioned, you know, going out and sort of stocking up. And I think that this is a broader conversation about prepping too, the difference between being ready and hoarding, right, yeah, and sometimes that line definitely gets blurry. Do you really need 100 pounds of rice? Are you going to go through it before it gets bad? Do you have a proper place to store it? I mean, you can talk about naloxone in the same way. And you know, just like you can keep Narcan in your bag. If you're going to a show going to a bar, you can also keep some in your gobag, if you have one, to evacuate, for example. Margaret 06:06 What's the....you know, I usually present myself as sort of the the person who pretends like she doesn't know what she's asking in these episodes, but I actually don't know as much about this as I would like. Alot of my friends are way more knowledgeable about this stuff. Like what is the difference between Narcan and naloxone? And how would I go about getting some to carry around with me? Nadia 06:29 Sure. So Narcan is really just a brand name, that's the the nasal spray. Naloxone is the actual medication. You can pick it up from certain service programs in your area. If you don't have a needle exchange in your area, you can go just Google Next Distro. We mail Naloxone to folks, so just check the website, see if you live in a state or an area where we do that. But we do try to encourage people to sort of seek out resources where they live. But yeah, there's there's a lot of different organizations, everything from sort of anarchist collectives, running needle exchanges to health departments that are, you know, offering trainings and providing Narcan. Margaret 07:19 What's the legality of it? Nadia 07:21 So, as far as you know, carrying it with you, there is what is called a standing order. It's basically a sort of blanket prescription. You can go to the pharmacy, purchase Naloxone, it can be prohibitively expensive, especially if you don't have insurance, which is why I kind of mentioned, you know, needle exchanges and health departments first. But I think, you know, as far as having it on your person, it's not going to be a situation where it's illegal. However, we know that cops like to fuck with people. So if you do happen to have Naloxone, and you have syringes on you, I'm not going to say you'll be fine. However, the law is on your side in that regard. And another piece of that, too, is different states have different Good Samaritan laws. So if you are with someone that is experiencing an overdose, in many states, not all, you can call 911, without the fear or threat of potentially being arrested for small possession, or things like that. They are very narrow in a lot of places. But that's something that you're going to want to look into for your state. Margaret 08:37 So it's like, this makes sense, like so probably, if I have some drugs on me and my friend has some drugs on me and my friend overdoses. There's a fear of involving the medical establishment because there's a fear of me or the person who's overdosing getting arrested for what we have on them. Is that what you're saying that this law protects? Like, yeah, in some states protects people about? Nadia 09:00 So you know, there's, there's a lot of stigma, right? And you know, just the the illegality piece. And at the end of the day there, there is an overdose crisis in the United States, in many places. And so these laws are designed to sort of take some of that fear away. And if you are responding to someone who's experiencing an overdose, you don't have to tell 911 when you call that this person is on drugs or that they are overdosing. You can just merely describe the symptoms and what is happening to them. For example, this person is not breathing, they're turning blue. I can't hear a heartbeat, whatever it might be. And you know, if you do have to leave and you have given them Naloxone, you can just leave the vials or or the package next to the person that way when EMS does arrive, they do know "Okay, this person has been given Narcan, "and they can kind of go from there, Margaret 09:59 Right. Okay, so like if you have reasons that you don't want to interact with emergency personnel and need to leave the scene, okay. Nadia 10:07 Yeah, and you have options. And that's kind of the whole thing about harm reduction, right? It's a pragmatic approach to drug use and a realistic one. And so, you know, that's why there, there are no hard and fast rules of do this, or don't do this, but, you know, sort of a continuum of human behavior. And, you know, acknowledging the risks at any point of it. Margaret 10:30 I want to come back to that in a little bit, because I want to have this whole conversation about what harm reduction...like why the work that y'all do is so like, philosophically important, to like disaster preparedness, and probably life in general. But first, I want to, I want to keep talking about some of this stuff, like with, like, you're talking about the, you know, there's an overdose crisis in the United States, I feel like everyone, on some level knows that. And one of the things that's so interesting to me, I would think I was thinking about before we did this episode is that it's like, you know, this is all about like, disaster preparedness, right? The whole show. And it feels like a lot of communities and certainly including drug communities. I don't know the way phrase that..... Nadia 11:18 You can say, "people who use drugs." Margaret 11:20 Okay. But so there is a disaster happening right now. Like, there is a crisis. Like there's a reason we call it crisis, you know, it's like a really fucking bad thing. And I'm wondering if, without necessarily going into it, like, too great, but I'm curious, like, what is happening? Like, what is what's happening right now? Why is everyone OD'ing? , Nadia 11:44 Well, you know, there's a lot of different facets to the overdose crisis and a lot of different solutions. Some of them sort of more triage, you know, we were just talking about Naloxone, and, and it's a great medication, it saves lives. But ultimately, what we really need is a safe supply of drugs. If people are aware and knowledgeable of what they're taking, how potent it is, if there are any adulterants in it, you know, that's where we would like to go. Obviously, drugs are illegal. Most drugs are illegal in most places in the United States. And, you know, there there has been pushes for access to safe supply in places like Canada in, you know, I believe Oregon has, has I think, legalized some drugs, right? You can purchase I think mushrooms now. Don't quote me on that. I'm not actually familiar with Oregon law. Margaret 12:46 Anyone listening this, you can go out and buy mushrooms legally. And if the police stop you, you can say "it''s okay. It's not a crime." Don't do that. Okay. Anyway. Yeah. Nadia 12:57 I mean, you know, philosophically, it's not a crime. It's not a crime to do drugs. And, you know, the, the idea that some of these drugs are illegal, and some of them aren't, really, is sort of goes back to like this puritanical history of our country. You know, why is alcohol legal when we know that drunk driving rates are through the roof, and you know, it can cause incredible damage to your body over time. But then, you know, smoking marijuana is, is still illegal in a lot of places. where I live, for sure, especially in the south. So, you know, I think that there's there's that moral component Margaret 13:38 So we should bring back prohibition? Nadia 13:40 Yeah, exactly. And so I think, you know, as far as having access to drugs that are safe, drugs, that that you know, what you're getting, you know, I think that we don't want to short....when I say 'we,' I mean people who use drugs, I mean, people in the harm reduction community. We don't want to shortchange ourselves. I don't want to say, "Oh, well, the overdose crisis would be so much better if everyone had not Narcan." Yes, that's true. But that's a temporary fix, Margaret 14:11 Right. It's...no, that's such a good point. Because I feel like that's like the...I know I owe came out the gate with like that as the first thing that was on my mind. And I, and I'm, like, kind of embarrassed about that because it's such the like, it's the band aid we always keep getting presented. And it's like a real good band aid. It's more like the tourniquet we keep getting presented. But, it does seem like yeah, what you're talking about decriminalization, it's almost like when you make things illegal, it doesn't make the problem go away. Nadia 14:40 Yeah, and you know, I think about it in terms of living under capitalism for so long our entire lives, right. And you get to a point where it's hard to think about solutions outside of the current system. We're so focused on kind of again, that that triage, right, how do we make things better within this oppressive state that we live in? But really, ultimately, the goal should be moving past that and moving beyond it, right? Margaret 15:11 Yeah. Yeah. So to go back with preparedness, I know that you do a little bit of preparedness yourself. We talked before we started recording about, you know, canned vegetables and things like that. How does it impact your preparedness, both that you are a drug user, and also that you, like, care about and take drug users into consideration in your preparedness? Nadia 15:40 Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is planning, right? I'm gonna use the example of of evacuating, I lived in the Gulf South for a very long time. Hurricanes were a yearly occurrence. And so I had to think about it a lot. But, you know, just in terms of what your risk is, and making a decision based on that, for example, if you are evacuating, do you bring drugs with you and sort of chance getting pulled over? Or do you try and score in a new place? And you have to decide what the bigger risk is for you. For example, if I'm driving with five of my friends in an unregistered van with acab stickers all over it, I might not want to be riding dirty, I might not want to have drugs on me. Versus, you know, if I am going somewhere completely unfamiliar to me, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to score when I get there. It might be worth the risk, right? And so thinking of those things in advance is really important. And the longer you wait in an emergency situation, the longer it's going to take you to get out of that cone of impact, right? If you wait to the last minute, there's going to be you know, traffic on the road, it's harder to to get out, it's harder to find a hotel room, for example. So really, that thinking of it in advance, you know, I think can save you a lot of critical time when you need to act. Margaret 17:10 Yeah. Yeah, like, I don't envy a lot of my friends who live in the Gulf South, are like, "What do I need?" And I'm like, I don't know, a house in the mountains somewhere. And then I'm like, No, that doesn't. That doesn't help. You know, I can't just tell people that. Nadia 17:26 Well, and I mean, you know, we're talking about preparedness, we're talking about disaster prep. And, you know, a lot of places that haven't had to deal with disasters, like hurricanes or flooding, or wildfires are seeing more and more of that now. And there's a greater impact on bipoc, queer and trans folks, disabled people, you know, marginalized groups whose access to resources is already more limited. And, you know, I think we really need to look towards communities that have been repeatedly harmed, especially by structural and environmental racism, I think they're best informed as to how to survive and how to support each other. And I don't want to say just in the Gulf south, but I'm talking about Flint, Michigan, I'm talking about, you know, Jackson, Mississippi, there's a lot of places where, you know, people are painfully aware that no one is coming to save you. It could be weeks or months for FEMA to arrive. In many places, local governments rely on mutual aid networks and charity groups to provide support. And so that kind of vacuum speaks to the importance of building dual power. Because it leaves the field open, I think for kind of any group that wants to become entrenched or inevitability, to sort of step up, right, whether that's a homophobic church group, right wing militias, especially in rural or remote areas, because, people remember who took care of them. You know, that's one of the reasons why the Black Panthers were such a threat with free breakfast programs and community care, is why Food Not Bombs is illegal in some places. There's just there's a lot of power in community sufficiency. Margaret 19:23 Yeah. I mean, and so you, you mentioned that there's like lessons that you draw from these specific places, especially bipoc. communities that are under like constant threat. What are some of the lessons that you feel like you draw from that? I mean, besides the one that you just pointed out, maybe that's the answer to the question, what you point out that like, building mutual aid networks and stuff like that, but.... Nadia 19:45 Yeah, absolutely, figuring out who is in your support network. Also in a disaster or crisis situation, how will you communicate with that network is really important. You know, do folks know where you're staying and vice versa? Yeah. Also, you know, we're talking right now and 2022, almost 2023, the COVID pandemic isn't over. So figuring out how you can shelter places safely, you know, do you have masks on hand? That sort of thing. And then going back to prepping for people who use drugs, stocking up on drugs, you know, you might be thinking, "Oh, well, after the fact, I can just XYZ," whatever your plan is, but what if your dealer evacuated? You know? And, you know, the, as far as staying with other people, how do they feel about drug use? Does everyone know where the naloxone is and how to use it, you know, disasters are stressful, you might be dealing with extreme temperatures, hunkering down with people and their different temperaments, and, you know, for most of us to, stress impacts drug use, and it's important to keep that in mind. If you're, you know, for example, trying to cut back or regulate your use. I think all of these things, you know, are useful for people who use drugs, but ultimately, I think they're all skills or at least, you know, aspects of preparing that are beneficial for anyone. Margaret 21:14 Yeah. Well, so interesting, because it you know, normally we think of like, okay, if you can get more of a medication that you need ahead of time, right? That's great. And, you know, there's this limitation, it's actually very similar limitation, the limitation is legality. In this case of like, you know, it's, it's sometimes very hard for people who even have a prescription to get more than, you know, a month's worth of supply or whatever, at a time of any given prescription. And it's, it's something that people run up against a lot. And then obviously, with, I don't know, whether the way to phrase it as street drugs or not, or like drugs that are not being bought through the pharmaceutical networks or whatever, you know, there's an accessibility that is hit and miss. And then there's also an increased danger of stockpiling, because it seems like the the level of risk that you're carrying for getting busted changes a lot based on how much of any given drug you have on you. Nadia 22:11 Yeah, definitely. And I do want to kind of speak to one of the pieces you talked about, as far as having medications, you know, if you're on prescription medications, you know, you can check in with your provider, see, if you can get a larger refill than normal say, you know, instead of 30 days, can you get a 60 day supply, especially for people who use drugs, who might be on, you know, medication assisted treatment, they might be taking methadone, naltrexone, and, you know, these are highly effective in terms of either regulating your use, or perhaps, you know, not using it all. But they can be difficult to access. And in some places, it's harder to pick up the prescription for Vivitrol or suboxone because of stigma, because pharmacists, you know, have this idea of, of drug users, or they just might not know the the regulations and laws in their area. And you might not know them either, because you're new. So, I think that checking in, like I said, with providers ahead of time, if that's possible, and you know, doing what you can in terms of stocking up, but this, that whole plan needs the assistance of people in the medical field. And even they have, you know, that kind of stigma, unfortunately, Margaret 23:33 Yeah, yeah. To self insert this, I got refused a COVID shot because I was wearing a harm reduction shirt once. Nadia 23:41 Wait, why what was the excuse that they gave you? Margaret 23:45 I went in, I was like this dirty punk wearing a Steady Collective shirt, which is the harm reduction group in Asheville, North Carolina. And I, it's funny, I feel like it's like Stolen Valor that I wear this shirt. Because people like when I wore in Asheville people were like, I love what you do. And "I'm like, thanks. What I do is I designed the logo." And the reason I wear the shirt is because I designed the logo for it. So I'm very proud of...and it's just crossed hypodermic needles. And Nadia 24:13 It's a cool logo. Margaret 24:14 Thanks. Thanks. And I was in like, rural fucking right wing California. And I wanted a COVID booster. And so I went into the pharmacy. I found out ahead of time that this particular pharmacy did walk ins. And I walked in, and the the pharmacist at the counter was talking to a doctor who was in line in front of me. And they were both just complaining about drug users. And they were just both sitting there being like, "Oh, these damned, you know, junkies," or whatever. I don't remember how they phrased it, but it wasn't polite. And then like the person finally leaves and I walk up and I'm like, Yall take walk ins? and she's like, "No." And I'm like, "Can I make an appointment? And she's like, "Not for today." Nadia 24:59 That is wild. I mean, also you have a lot of people in the medical community that don't really believe that COVID is a thing or that vaccines are effective. I mean, you can have an anti Vaxxer pharmacist, which is, yeah, I mean, Margaret 25:16 And, like, this is such a, like, I face stigma once....I so it's like, it's really easy for me to imagine after that, that like, of course, people face stigma coming in and picking up their fucking medications, if they're like, the kinds of medications that are, like methadone and stuff like that. That's fucked up. I don't know, that sucks. Nadia 25:40 Yeah, and I mean, you know, we're talking about COVID. And I think harm reduction is a huge piece of you know, how we can kind of move through the world right now. People are continuing to die and be disabled by COVID. And, you know, we were talking a little bit before, before we started about, you know, kind of the beginning of COVID. And I was really optimistic at first kind of seeing mutual aid networks spring up and more people coming to the realization that the government will kill us for the sake of the economy. But you know, now I think even in radical spaces, that sort of care and community level protection has given way to the more mainstream sentiment or desire to return to normalcy. And that's just something that isn't possible. And it's not desirable to many, many people for whom normalcy was oppressive and a danger. Yeah, you know, I think that, especially as anarchists or folks that consider themselves radical, preppers, as well, we know that we keep us safe, right? That's kind of the tagline. But, that should also apply to immunocompromised people as well, and disabled folks. And, you know, now, I think it's a really great time to take stock of your existing protocols, and safety measures and sort of ask if those things that you're doing or not doing are still in line with what our current risk is. And right now, going into winter, you know, nationally, over 10% of tests are coming back positive. And we know that we're severely under testing, and we know that COVID reinfections, wear down your immunity. That increases your risk for long COVID or kind of lingering COVID symptoms, and, you know, makes people more susceptible to things like the flu, RSV, or Strep A, all three of which we're seeing a surge of in this winter. Margaret 27:43 Yay. Yeah. I think about it, like the fact that...I don't know how to put this. Like, I wear a mask for the same reason I carry a gun. And it...and not that I want everyone to carry guns, that is a very personal decision based on the legality and the threat models that you're facing. Bu,t I carry a gun, so that it is harder for someone to murder me and it is harder for someone to murder the people I care about who are near me, right? I wear a mask, so that I am less likely to die, and other people around me are less likely to die. This seems like such a, like the idea that there's people who are like preppers or prepper adjacent, who are anti mask, and then anti vaccine is just so nonsensical to me. And I mean, I do think that like protocols do like, they do need to shift, we do need to realize it as we realize that this is endemic, and you know, we can't...like we probably can't just say no more live music in the course of human history. Right? Nadia 28:58 I would hope not. Margaret 29:00 But I especially like, when I walk into the grocery store, there is literally no cost to me to wear a mask. There is just, there's only positive effects of me wearing a mask minus social stigma. Nadia 29:17 You know, I think that we need, if we're going to survive, care, kindness, and a lot of grace. Which requires us to acknowledge that there's a huge cognitive dissonance people are dealing with right now. We're three years into a global pandemic that's killed six and a half million people around the world, the rise of fascism, I mean, there's a lot and people's responses are going to vary wildly. Kind of the metaphor I like to use is, it sort of feels like a house fire. And we've all just gone through this traumatic experience, and we've run out of the house in the middle of the night, and everyone is sort of behaving in a trauma informed way, some people are trying to run back into the house, some people are claiming that there was never a fire. And, you know, it's, it's trying to take care of each other, and hold ourselves accountable to being, you know, I think responsible for our communities, but while also acknowledging, you know, this is a weird fucking time. You know, I think too, this kind of goes back a little bit to our Naloxone conversation. You know, when we talk about masks, when we talk about boosters, these are sort of individual steps we can take, right? But ultimately, that's, that's only a piece of it, right? We need a societal shift. We need proper air filtration in schools, we need access to rapid testing, we need the working class to have the money and ability to take time off of work when they're sick. I mean, all of these things are sort of interconnected to this larger struggle. And one way that capitalism and our sort of overlords here and Imperial core, are able to shift blame is by you know, kind of making everything this individual choice and individual responsibility when it's not at all. Margaret 31:33 No, that's such a good point. And there's it, it shows that there's even like, some of those things are small scale community, things can be done as well, like, it would be a shame for a small scale community to have to suddenly like come up with the resources to provide rapid testing to everyone constantly or whatever, right. But like, I don't know, like, helping your local venues get real good air filtration systems, you know, or like, expanding outside infrastructure in climates that allow it, and like, there are the steps that we can take that are sort of medium. They're not....And I think that's actually where anarchists and radicals actually do best is not at the individual level. And frankly, if I if I'm being honest, not necessarily at the systemic level, but like this sort of in between level, this community based this community size level of like, how do we? Yeah, I mean, we can't....the punks or the anarchists, or whatever is can't pass a mask mandate, but like, we can create, like, cultures where, when there's no reason not to, we wear masks, and we work on our air filtration. And this is really just me thinking about COVID instead of the whole point of this conversation was drug use stuff, but... Nadia 32:54 Well I mean, they're, I think they're interrelated. You know, if you are putting on a punk show, is it accessible, right? Does that mean, you know, for folks in wheelchairs, folks with, you know, mobility aids, as well as immunocompromised people, and ensuring that you know, this is a place that they have access to? Or if it's not, saying that. I at least want you to say, "Hey, this is a dangerous place for you. And, making it accessible is not our priority or isn't possible in this situation. Therefore, you can make your own decision about whether or not you want to attend." Margaret 33:36 I've been in like, an now I can't remember if it was France or Montreal, somewhere where people spoke French. I've been in places where like any anarchist event will put on the fliers the accessibility or lack of accessibility for wheelchair access. And that's such an interesting, good point, right? Because if you have to flag on it, "This is not wheelchair accessible." It means you have to think about it when you do it, right. And like, Which isn't to say you shouldn't...I don't know one way or the other about what I'm about to say, which doesn't mean like you can't put on an event if you can't find it, accessible space, but you should have to own it, and you should have to be working on making the space more accessible. Is that, uh??? I'm really talking about my ass here. I haven't I haven't been part of these conversations. But. Nadia 34:21 I mean, as someone who is struggling with long COVID still a year in, you know, I am also new to the disability conversation. And I definitely feel grateful for the folks who have been activists and have been organizing around these issues for you know, forever, honestly. And it really was shocking to me, even though I'm fairly realistic about how our society treats folks they deem unworthy or undesirable, but it was really shocking the level to which you become invisible. All. And you know, I think, to sort of shoehorn a little segue back to our orginal conversation, people who use drugs also live in that sort of liminal space, right? There's so much that is invisible about drug use. But also, this kind of caricature of drug users is sort of trotted out anytime people want to talk about society's ills, right? When people are talking about folks without homes, inevitably drug use comes up as if people aren't sitting in their houses doing drugs. They just have walls and you can't see them. Margaret 35:38 Yeah, well, and then one of the things that I really appreciate about this conversation with you is that you're talking about the implication, or the the inference that I'm picking up on, is that basically saying, It's okay, if people use drugs, that is their choice, it seems to be like, like a lot of the conversation that I've feel like I'm exposed to is this, like, we should have pity for these poor drug users, and everyone is trying to stop using drugs. Whereas, it seems like you're trying to present an alternate case where people can choose whether or not they want to engage with drugs in different ways? Nadia 36:17 Yeah, I mean, you know, harm reduction is the sort of set of principles or tenants that allows for autonomy and allows for people to make informed decisions about what they do. You know, abstinence doesn't necessarily work or isn't feasible for everyone. And so, you know, giving people the space and acknowledging that there's always going to be some risk in the things that we do, you know, helps us kind of approach it with clear eyes. But the I think the moral question around using drugs really does us a disservice. Doing drugs is fun, and cool. And that is, I think, an important message to have out there because, you know, so often, we're just inundated with all of the terrible things that can happen to you. And again, this is normal human behavior. This is normal behavior in other other species, you've got monkeys eating, you know, fruit that's gone, gone bad and getting drunk, you've got bears eating psychedelic honey. We do this because it's enjoyable. And to deny it that, I think, sort of leaves us on our back foot in terms of "Okay, well, how do we do this safely?" Margaret 37:41 Yeah, presenting as this is a bad thing that someone shouldn't have done and now we have to deal with the bad parts, as compared to being like, every animal on the planet wants to do this, we should figure out ways that people can have freedom to do it as safely as they want or to not do it, if they don't want. Nadia 38:07 Right, and you know, both are fine. It's also cool to not do drugs. I do want to put that out there. But as a drug user, you know, this touches on our conversation about safe supply, right? When you're buying and you don't know the quality or if there's cross contamination, obviously, a lot of folks are very concerned about things like fentanyl right now. There's also you know, other sort of fillers or things people can use. Xylazine is something that is sort of making the rounds right now that can have potential, like negative health impacts. So yeah, I think this, this goes back to sort of those bigger picture solutions as opposed to the band aids. Margaret 38:55 Okay. And then, how useful is it? You know, like, as you pointed out earlier, right....Again, before, we had a long pre conversation. We knew each other back in the day for, now, people can know that about us, I guess. You know, pointing out because like, I mostly don't do drugs, but I do drink sometimes, right, and that is a drug and alcohol is absolutely a drug. It's a very dangerous drug. And it's one that I engage with very rarely, but I do engage with, and it does seem like a fairly useful comparison for talking about other drugs. Like cause there's this drug that is socially acceptable while also being massively destructive, right? And it seems like that actually maps fairly well to most of the other drugs that are like, problems for people. I don't know is that too simplistic? Nadia 39:51 No, I don't think so. You know, and that's also not to say that people don't struggle with their drug use that people you You know, might be really unhappy with their relationship to drugs. And, you know, the more openly we can talk about it and the more access to different options people have, that sort of allows them to, you know, find the most comfortable place for them. Right, there is this, you know, kind of individual piece to it, even though we're talking a lot about sort of community care, Margaret 40:24 Right. No, that's what I mean, that, in some ways, is part of why alcohol feels like such a good comparison. It's not even a comparison, it's literally a drug. It's a drug that is somehow held into a different class than the others, is that I think we all know people who....for whom alcohol is a problem. And we all know people for whom alcohol is not a problem. And then we all know, people who completely abstain from alcohol, who are in one of those two camps, if they weren't abstaining, you know? Hmm. I don't know, I'm having this like, epiphany, that should have been obvious a long time ago, I think about this. Nadia 41:02 Well, and, you know, thinking in terms of alcohol, and using that as an example of how constrained we are in terms of our choices, you know, if if you are someone that struggles with drinking, really the the options that are given to you are abstinence, right? 12 steps, complete sobriety, and the message that that is the only way that you will be able to, you know, become a functioning member of society. And the fact is that that's simply not true.You know, abstinence really doesn't work for many, many people. You know, I think most of us can remember the "Just Say No," campaigns of the 90s, or maybe the 80s, depending on how old you are. And we know those didn't work. It don't work for children, it doesn't work for adults. And, you know, I think I don't want to get too far down the rabbit hole. But I think it would be important for folks to sort of think about, "Well, why is alcohol illegal? And all these other drugs aren't?"And I think it all goes back to capitalism. It goes back to money. It goes back to social control. Margaret 42:22 Yeah. Well, ironically, one of the reasons that alcohol is legal, is that a bunch of people fought the KKK to the death to make alcohol legal. I only learned as kind of more recently when I did a bunch of....one of my other podcasts is a history podcast. And I didn't realize that the second incarnation of the KKK was like, one of their main things is that they were the foot soldiers of prohibition. They were like the Proud Boys of the prohibition era. And it was this whole thing where it was like Protestants versus everyone else, including reasonable Protestants. It was white Protestants against Irish Catholics, Italians, all of the people who were, you know, bootlegging, and all of that other stuff. And there were these like massive violent street fights. And I mean, mostly, it was massive violence, street fights about fuck you, you're the KKK, we want to...you can't run our town. But, what they wanted to do was run the town on a prohibition model. And there's this like, really interesting tie between white supremacy and prohibition. And it? I don't know, I mean, like, I know, I know how to immediately draw the same thing between the outline of weed and anti blackness. And I'm suspecting that if I dug very hard, I would find similar things with like, drugs, period. I don't know. I just got really excited about people beating up the KKK and that's why we're allowed to drink. Nadia 43:59 Yeah, that's always a win, both of those things. Margaret 44:06 But, what anyway, sorry, I got lost in rabbit hole thinking about that. Okay, so you've brought up this topic a couple times: harm reduction. And I suspect most people have at least an idea of what harm reduction is, but I'm wondering if you could kind of introduce it because, one, it feels very relevant to this specific conversation. But it also feels very relevant to conversations around disaster preparedness in general, because it seems to be implying that there is no perfect and that in some ways perfect is the enemy of good. And that we should just like, figure out what can go wrong and do the best we can rather than expect to succeed in everything. Maybe that's a misunderstanding. Nadia 44:51 That's, that is I think, a really core piece of it, you know, and I don't want to belie the the history behind harm reduction too, you know, this was a movement that was created in platformed by people who use drugs, by sex workers, especially during the HIV AIDS crisis. And again, you know, from groups of marginalized people that realize that they are the only ones looking out for each other. And you know, that many behaviors carry some form of risk. And so talking about that honestly, and figuring out how to mitigate that risk is far more helpful than shaming people and that is connected, you know, directly to the criminalization of HIV and AIDS too, you know, there's the sort of moralizing, right, when folks become sick. There's this idea, I think, that is rooted in very, like old school, Brimstone Christianity, that, you know, it's some form of punishment. And I think that the way our society looks at people who use drugs, and the potential risks are viewed as appropriate punishment for the behavior, which is wrong and fucked up. Margaret 46:06 Yeah. Okay, so. So what is harm reduction? Nadia 46:12 So, you know, I think that if we're specifically talking about drug use, that can be, you know, practical tips, anything from making sure that you're using sterile supplies, making sure that you have syringes, and you don't have to share them, to prevent the transmission of diseases, you know, that can be, you know, figuring out different routes of administration. So for example, if you're someone that likes to snort a lot of drugs, maybe you want to give your nostrils a break, and, you know, smoke or boof. There are a lot of things that you can kind of adjust, right? You don't even have to necessarily be adhering to this strict set of rules as far as your drug use, but really being sort of flexible based on your own needs. Margaret 47:09 Okay. And then, what are some of the ways that harm reduction either applies to other things besides drug use, or like has been successfully applied, or like some of the ways that like harm reduction, as jargon, has been, like, kind of co-opted by other things? Nadia 47:32 Yeah, I mean, I feel like especially after 2016, the the idea that voting is harm reduction really picked up speed. And I personally disagree. Margaret 47:47 Okay. Nadia 47:48 For the most part, because harm reduction is something that you know, you can use for yourself, for your drug use, and so when we say voting is harm reduction, my question is, "Whose harm is being lessened?" You know, we currently have a Democratic president, and there's still concentration camps on our southern border, you still have Democratic mayors and city council's introducing regressive anti homelessness laws, throwing more money at more cops. And so I just think the notion that we can affect the kind of change necessary to liberate us by voting is....it's short sighted. And I think it can be an excuse for people to not have to invest so much in their allyship. Yeah, I think at its very base, most like literal definition, voting potentially reduces harm, but most of that is going to be in the immediate or short term. Margaret 48:50 Well, so that's really interesting to me, right? Because I think that I had a kind of misunderstanding of harm reduction in some ways, because from my point of view, I mean...voting as harm reduction just seemed to be the rephrasing of vote for the lesser evil. Because in my mind, voting for the lesser evil is acknowledging an evil, right, it is acknowledging like Like, like, Biden is an evil, the Democratic Party is an evil, that does evil things in the world. And so for me, there's a there's a sensibility to the argument of thinking that voting is how we make systemic change is terrible. And I actually thought that the kind of concept of, but they always lose their meaning, right, in the 80s. and 90s It was vote for the lesser evil and people were like, yeah, that's how we make things better. It's like, no, it's clearly not how to make things better. It's how you make things evil. You're just controlling the amount of evil. And then with harm reduction argument, the reason I bought it at first was because it was like, "Oh, yes, because it's, it's saying there is going to be harm, but we want to do less of it." But, with what you're talking about, about how drug use or sex as two of the spaces that we talk about harm reduction a lot, right? Like those things can rule, right? Like sex and drugs, there's a reason that people talk about them positively. They're very dangerous activities sometimes, right. And people should go into them as clear headed as...well, maybe not clear headed depending on their preferences, but you know, people should should be aware of the risks, but then go and have all the sex and drugs and rock and roll or whatever that they want, as compared to... and so this is where the metaphor to the political system seems to fall apart to me is because like, well, the existing political system that we have is just doing bad. And it's really about what tiny little bits of mitigation or picking, something's going to kill. It's the trolley problem, right? You're still killing people. And that's not fun and cool. That's not sex, drugs and rock and roll. I don't know. That's what I got. Nadia 51:01 Yeah. And, you know, I think that you really laid it out very well there. You know, yes, I can reduce the harm to myself if I am using drugs or having sex, but I can't get these politicians that I voted in to reduce the harm that they are causing. Because, you know, if you're voting for one of the two dominant political parties in the United States, I think you're just asking yourself, if you want to get to fascism, the short way or the long way, because I think, you know, voting in Democrats does make a material difference when it comes to some social services, and some environmental protections. But ultimately, both of these parties work at the behest of the ruling class. And capitalism requires ceaseless consumption and growth. And neither of those are sustainable. And they require the subjugation of working class people. So I think, you know, if, you know, it's, it's a question of capacity, if you and the people in your community that you organize with have the time and resources to engage in electoral politics, while simultaneously building dual power, and fighting encroaching fascism, like, go with God. There's space for a lot of tactics, and you gotta find where your skill set is and where your comfort lies. And I do just want to say this one last piece, too, when we talk about voting as harm reduction in the United States, that often I think tends to overlook the international implications of maintaining the current political system here, Margaret 52:36 Right, which is, that's where it becomes even more of the same as like, yeah, it's never...the solutions don't lie in the ballot box, and like, Oh, whatever. I'm just like, speaking cliches or whatever. But it's like, even if we can make things like slightly better, like, because like, literally, if someone was like, "Well, do you want fascism tomorrow? Do you want fascism in five years," I'd be like, "Five years, please, that gives me a little bit more time to try to fight it." But of course, the problem, obviously, we're way off topic, but the problem is, of course, then people think that like, oh, that's the solution. The solution is engaging with this political system that has no fucking reason for existing besides driving us closer to Ecocide and fascism. Nadia 53:21 Right. That's, that's the band aid. That's the triage. You know, there are so many different things that I think harm reduction principles can be applied to whether that's sex work, you know, mental health issues, eating disorders, tobacco use, I think there's a really natural evolution of the harm reduction philosophy to extend it to other health risk behaviors and to a broader audience in that way. I just, I think that, again, using harm reduction to sort of Pantious Pilate wash your hands of a lot of things and just say,"I voted and that's enough," is it's not going to work. It's not. Margaret 54:00 Okay. No, and now I'm thinking, I'm like, Oh, shit, is my like, I just carry around naloxone. Is that my, like, wash my hands of addressing the larger systemic things and like, well, it doesn't affect me, it clearly affects me because it affects people I care about and it like, I don't know, is the takeaways. Okay, wait, I'm gonna try and some of the takeaways I've gotten from you, is that carry Naloxone, but it's a band aid. And it is a useful one, but the larger systemic problems have to do with criminalization and they have to do with access to safe supply. And so working on the kind of pressure involved to fight for that is good having mutual aid networks....Oh, okay. One of the questions that kind of had actually is, in your experience existing mutual aid networks, how well do they get along with existing harm reduction networks? Does it tend to be the same players and everyone's excited, or do you run across some mutual aid networks do they kind of like to step up their game about actually care about, you know, drug users? Or like, How's that look right now, Nadia 55:09 In my personal experience, and I can't really speak to, you know, places I haven't lived or, you know, different communities that I'm not a part of. But there is a great deal of overlap. You know, a lot of folks that are working in harm reduction, people who use drugs and sex workers are sort of use to you know, fending for ourselves, we're used to creating these these networks of care that exist outside of the current system. And, you know, that's not to say that, when disaster strikes, it can sort of hit some folks harder than others. If the needle exchange in your town closes down, because there was a disaster. You know, there, there might be some time before they opened back up. And that's not going to stop people from using drugs. It will just create a situation where people have to use drugs more dangerously. And so, you know, yes, I think that there's a lot of overlap. But also, it shouldn't be this sort of jerry rigged, you know, last line of defense, the folks that have just experienced a disaster now having to turn around and all care for each other. Because again, no one is coming to save you. Margaret 56:28 Yeah. Yay. That's Nadia 56:32 that's the real point of it. Yes. Margaret 56:35 But I mean it's really liberating. I think that like, I'm not super into political nihilism, personally, a lot of my friends are and I don't mean to slight it. But, the thing that reminds me of what like my like nihilist friends get out of like hopelessness, not hopeless, whatever, out of nihilism is comparable to the like, I find something joyous and liberating about the realization that no one's coming to save us. Because it's this like concept, one of my favorite cliches from like, when I was a baby anarchist was just like, "We are the ones we've been waiting for." Because it's less about, no one is coming to save us, we're doomed. And it's more about like, it is up to us to build the power and capacity necessary to bring about the changes that we need to see in this world. And there's a lot of us, and there's a lot more of us all the time, and the problems we're facing, seem to be getting bigger and bigger, depending on the position you're coming from, right, the problems facing me have gotten bigger and bigger as all the anti trans stuff comes through, or whatever, you know, but there's also more of us. Even to just continue the trans thing as a metaphor. It's like, the reason there's all this anti trans shit is that we all came out of the fucking closet. Like, there's a ton of us. And like, there always were a ton of us, but we were all fucking scared. And like, and what they want to do is make us afraid and get back in the closet. And so I get a lot out of, 'no one is coming to save us.' Because of the flip side being. We're going to save us. Nadia 58:16 Yeah, I mean, I think it's really liberatory. That's something that I love about anarchism, too, you know, yes, that means that, you know, the system isn't here for us, because it's never been here for us. But ultimately, we have to take responsibility for our lives, for our communities, and for the future that we want, as opposed to sort of being handed these these goals and expectations, the rules that were supposed to have, the lives were supposed to lead. And you know, it can be scary to not have that safety net, but I think through, you know, both political discourse, but also just, you know, having lived a life, you quickly become aware that that safety net never actually existed in the first place. Margaret 59:05 Yeah. Well, are there any last words on preparedness that you want to, you want to shout out? Everyone should fill their basement with needles? I don't know. Nadia 59:22 Well, I mean, don't do that. Or if you do that, make sure that they are, you know, safely kept somwhere that only you have access to, or the folks that need them. You know, I know I've kind of hammered this home a lot. But, it really, when I say 'it,' I mean harm reduction. And I think what we're trying to do for ourselves really comes down to community and it comes down to having these bigger goals and not taking, 'no,' for an answer or taking, you know, half measures for an answer. The overdose crisis is very real. And there are pharmaceutical companies and families that have directly caused a lot of pain and death, and they should be held accountable. And that is slowly happening over time. But, I just want to keep clear, you know, who are the folks in our community who are doing the work? And who are maybe the people that are sort of preventing us from living our best lives? Margaret 1:00:34 Yeah. All right. Well, is there anything you want to shout out here at the end of like, what people...I don't know it was anything you want to draw attention to any projects? Any of your work? 1:00:47 You know, support your local needle exchange, support your local sex workers. You know, if there is a call to fight back against fascists, or show up at your local library, because people are doing some fuck shit against trans people, you should be there. That's my shout out. Yeah. Margaret 1:01:05 That's a good shout out. Well, thanks for being on...it's funny as like, every now and then I do these episodes where I'm like, it like challenges my own like weird....I don't want to say puritanical upbringing, I didn't have a puritanical upbringing. I was around a lot of people, you know, all my friends did a lot of drugs when I was in....whatever. And it's just like, interesting to every now and I'd have these episodes like, it's like the first couple times I did firearms episodes. I was like, It's not that I was like, Oh, I'm being so edgy. It was just being like, Oh, right. Information is dangerous because I and then I'm like, that's true about everything. I don't know where I'm going with this. Basically, thanks for coming on to talk about something that I feel like doesn't get talked about because people are afraid to acknowledge it, because we all walk around with this, like, 'drugs are bad,' and then we just secretly all do drugs. And so it's just better to just actually be like, drugs are complicated. Nadia 1:02:03 Yeah, and people are complicated. Margaret 1:02:05 What? Not me. I'm a paladin. I adhere to my moral code. That doesn't sound great. Okay. Yep. All right. Well, thank you for coming on this episode. Nadia 1:02:15 Thanks for having me. Margaret 1:02:17 All right. Bye. Margaret 1:02:25 Thank you so much for listening. 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Episode Summary Brooke and Margaret recap the passed year of horrifying events, from climate collapse, to inflation economics, to developments with Covid, mass shooting, why the police continue to suck, culture wars, bodily autonomy, why capitalism ruins everything, as well as a glimpse of what could be coming this next year both hopeful and dreadful in This Year in the Apocalypse. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Brooke is just great and can be found at Strangers helping up keep our finances intact and on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Next Episode Hopefully will come out Friday, Jan. 31st. Transcript This Year in the Apocalypse 2022 Brooke 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, your co-host for this episode, along with the indomitable Margaret killjoy. Margaret 00:27 Hiiii Brooke 00:28 We have something extra special for you. Hi, Margaret. You might be familiar with the monthly segment we started in 2022: This Month in the Apocalypse, and today we will take that into a sub segment: This Year in the Apocalypse. But, first we have to shout out to another member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts, but playing a little jingle from one of our comrades, Boo doo doo doo, doo doo. Brooke 01:18 And we're back. So, before I tell people about this extra special episode, I want to officially say "Hello," to my co host, Margaret. Hi, Margaret. Margaret 01:36 Hello, how are you? Brooke 01:38 I'm doing okay. How are you doing? Margaret 01:42 I'm doing terrible, and I'm not going to talk about it. Brooke 01:45 Okay, that's fair. That sounds like me most of the time. Okay, well, speaking of terrible, how did the last year treat you now that we've flipped the calendar? Is there anything you would like to say to the year 2022? Margaret 01:59 You know, it's fine. It's just the year 2020 part three. As far as the other parts of the year 2020, it's been...it was chiller, then parts one and two. Not from a climate point of view, but from a fascism point of view. Brooke 02:21 Oh, okay. That's a good point. Well, I feel like 2022 as with most years....Sorry. What, Margaret? Margaret 02:30 Everything's fine. Nothing bad happened. That's the end of the episode. Brooke 02:33 Always. Margaret 02:34 Everything's good. Brooke 02:35 Okay, cool. Well, this has been a fun recording. Yeah. Well, as with most years, in the last decade, I say, "Fuck you to 2022," and would like to burn it all down. So, we have that going for us. Margaret 02:51 Alright, fuck you, 2022. I do that when I leave a state. Brooke 02:58 You say, "Fuck you," to the State behind you? Margaret 02:59 Yeah, yeah. Brooke 03:01 Even even Oregon, even when you came to visit us out here? Margaret 03:05 Why would I? Why would Oregon be any different? Brooke 03:08 Because some of the people you love are in Oregon. Margaret 03:16 Whatever, fuck you too....I mean, many of the people I love were also in the year 2022. Brooke 03:21 Okay, all right. You got me. Margaret 03:24 Okay. Brooke 03:24 One point: Margaret , zero points: Brooke. Margaret 03:26 Yep, that's what I was saying. Brooke 03:27 Yeah. So. So, I was thinking about how we do this extra fun, special episode of This Year in the Apocalypse. And being typical Brooke, I was like, let's come up with a very orderly fashion in which to do this. I shall take all of the months and pick one thing per month, and we shall be organized. And spoiler alert for the audience. Margaret and I came up with separate lists. We haven't seen each other's lists. We don't know what each other shittiest things are. Margaret 03:53 Wait, I didn't pick the shittiest things. I just picked stuff. Brooke 03:56 Oh, damn, I pick the shitty stuff. Margaret 04:00 Okay, well, I tried to go with a little bit of, there's not a lot of hope in here. There's a little bit of hope in here. Brooke 04:08 It's funny, because when I was thinking about this, I was like, oh, Margaret should do the happy stuff, because Margaret does Cool People. And I can be the the Roberts Evans, everything's bastards side of the simulation. Margaret 04:20 Okay, well, it's a good thing we're figuring this out right now, on air. Brooke 04:23 Right? Margaret 04:24 Okay. So, we'll start with your month by month and then I'll interject? Margaret 04:28 That's fine. Brooke 04:28 Super fun. Yeah. And like a disclaimer on the month by month is that not all months were created equal. So, it's like, whatever the shittiest thing in one month, maybe, you know, way shittier than next month. That's annoying to like, try and compare them in that way. It was a silly way for me to do it, but.. here we are. Brooke 04:30 All right. flashing back 12 months to January, 2022: America hit a million COVID cases with Omicron surging, so Good job America. COVID ongoing and bad. Margaret 05:04 We're number one. Brooke 05:06 Yeah. The other the other real shitty, horrible thing in January was inflation, which technically was pretty crappy in 2021, as well. But we started feeling it more in January like that's when it started hitting and then was kind of ongoing throughout this year as businesses responded to the inflation, had to start raising prices and stuff. Well, had to...some had to, some chose to because they could get away with it. Margaret 05:34 Should I? I wrote down all the inflation numbers for the end of the year. Brooke 05:39 Yeah, baby. Margaret 05:41 The OECD, which stands for something something something, it's a group of 38 countries that sit around and talk about how great they are, or whatever economic something, something. You think I would have written it down. They do. They calculate inflation for their member countries, based on the Consumer Price index. It averaged. This is as of October, the report in December, talks about it as of October, it averaged about 10.7% overall inflation across these 38 countries in the last year. Food averaged at...I wrote down 6.1%. But, I actually think it was slightly higher than that. I think I typo-ed that. Brooke 06:22 In the US was closer to 8%. Margaret 06:26 Yeah, and then, okay. More developed nations saw this all a little bit lower the G7, which is the Group of Seven, it's the seven countries who have the elite cool kids club, and try and tell everyone what to do. Their overall inflation was 7.8%, as compared to the 10.7%. Inflation in the US actually tapered off most than most other countries, probably because we fuck everyone else over, but I couldn't specifically tell you. Inflation is a bit of a black box that even the people who know what inflation is don't really understand. And, energy inflation in general was the most brutal. Italy saw 70% energy inflation in the last year. It was 58%. In the UK, it was 17% in the US. So energy, inflation is actually outpacing even food inflation. And most of the food inflation, as we've talked about, at different times on this is caused by rising costs of fertilizer and like diesel and things like that. Yeah, that's what I got about inflation. There was a lot of it. It's technically tapering off a little bit in the United States. Just this moment. Brooke 07:41 Yeah, I was actually listening to a economics report about that yesterday about how it's tapering off a little bit. The extra shitty thing that happened in February, which added to the drastically increasing fuel prices and food prices, was that fucking Russia invaded Ukraine,and started bombing shit there. Margaret 08:04 Boo. Brooke 08:06 And that that might win as...if we're taking a poll here of all of the worst things that happened in the last year, I kind of feel like that, you know, that's got to be one of the top three. Margaret 08:16 It's, it's up there. Yeah. Even in terms of its effects on the rest of the world, even like, if you're like, on a, well, what do I care about what two European countries are doing? Because, but it affects the shit out of the global south. Ukraine in particular, and also Russia providing a very large percentage of the grain and wheat that goes to, especially Africa. So, yeah, a lot of the energy inflation in the rest of Europe is also a direct result of Russian imperialism. Brooke 08:47 Yeah, it's pretty...it's fucked up a lot of stuff. There was another shitty thing that happened before that happened in February, which is what the Olympics began. And you know, Boo the Olympics. Yeah. So then we then we moved into March and there was this thing called COVID. And then there was this bad inflation happening and then this war over in Ukraine, but then we also, in Florida decided to pass a bill, the nicknamed 'Don't Say Gay' bill. Margaret 09:18 Yeah. I can't believe that was less than a year ago. That was like eight culture wars ago. Brooke 09:26 I know, because I got some of the other ones coming up here. And it was like, oh, fuck, that's still a thing. And then moving into April, so, there was like this war going on, and inflation was bad, and people were dying of this pandemic that we were living in, and then also, the Johnny Depp vs Amber Heard trial began. And that might not seem like one of the shittiest things, but for like anyone who's been a survivor of domestic violence, and the way that trial it seemed like you know, every social media platform like you were getting like ads for it. Right? I know, other people talked about this, like everyone was seeing all these ads for news reports on it. It was like way at the top of the list. And, you know, again, domestic abuse survivor, like, I don't, I don't need to be reminded about, you know, this awful ongoing domestic abuse trial. Margaret 10:19 Yeah, yeah, that was, um, I like try to avoid everything that has to do with celebrities, but realizing how much that that like, ties into, I don't know, how we all talk about all of this shit. I have nothing really clever to say besides like, oh, my God, it's so fucked up. And I don't trust mainstream discourse around any of it. Yeah, Brooke 10:39 For sure. We also saw because of climate issues, Lake Mead was dropping to dangerously low levels, starting all the way in April. And I feel like we could have done this whole episode on climate catastrophes that happened in the last year, like This Year in the Apocalypse could have just been climate change. It was a lot. Margaret 11:00 Yes, well, fortunately that will start overriding everything else over the next couple of years. So, you know....One or the other just to Lake thing on my note, Lake Powell, which provides power to 4.5 million people could reach minimum power pool status by July [2023]. So that's a that's an upcoming thing to look forward to. Brooke 11:29 Yay, for the year ahead. Yeah, I don't even know what the status of Lake Mead is right now. I'm sure it's not doing great. And we'll probably start hearing about it again in the spring as it's at dangerously low levels, find more bodies and boats and whatever else. Margaret 11:46 And they're both. Both are on the Colorado River. Yeah, they're both on the Colorado River. Brooke 11:51 Yeah. And if you're not familiar with why Lake Mead matters, John Oliver actually did a really good piece on it on his show that talks about the water rights and stuff. I think it was John Oliver. Maybe it was John Stewart. Margaret 12:07 And if you want to read a terrible...a very good, although misogynist dystopia about what's coming in terms of water rights, there's a book called "The Water Knife" by Paulo [Bacigalupi], whose name last name I don't know how to pronounce. It's an Italian name. I think yeah, Brooke 12:21 I actually have that on my to-read-shelf. Margaret 12:23 Yeah, it's, um, that man should not be allowed to write sex worker characters ever again. Brooke 12:29 Thank you for the notice there on what to expect on that aspect. Margaret 12:34 But other than that, other than that, it's very interesting book. Brooke 12:40 Okay. May brought us a couple of big bad shootings, which is, you know, not again, not to diminish any other school shootings or shootings that happened or the fact that they're going on, you know, all the time in schools, but they were the ones that like, hit the news, really big. There was the Buffalo, New York supermarket shooting that happened. And then the towards the end of the month was that just God awful Robb Elementary School shooting in Texas, that I don't know how everyone else experienced it. But I, as a parent, you know, whose child who's only slightly older than that. It was absolutely horrifying for me and enraging, and I had a lot of feelings about it. And you know, school shootings are always hard to see, but that one in particular... Margaret 13:29 This is the coward cops one, where they kept parents out who were the parents who were trying to like save kids? Brooke 13:33 Yeah, for like 72 minutes or something like that, more than that they were outside the door where the guy was actively shooting on children. Margaret 13:41 This is...the character of American law enforcement was laid bare on that day, is how I feel. I mean, I have many feelings on all of it, but... Brooke 13:53 And that was in Uvalde, Texas, where they have two separate police systems. There is a police system just for the schools there in addition to the town's police. Margaret 14:07 There was that, uh, there was that lawsuit 10,15,20 years ago, something, where a man who was like, I think it was someone who's like stabbing people on the train, you know, just like, just just doing that thing. And, and a man stopped him, stopped the stabby guy while the cops cowered in behind, like they went into, like the driver's compartment of the train, and they just hid from the stabby guy. And the the guy stopped the stabby guy sued...I might have the details of this wrong. Sued and was like, the police have a duty to protect people. And it came back, the judge is like, "Actually they don't, it is literally not the jobs. The police's job is not to protect you. That is not their job." And, the sooner we all realize that the safer we'll be, because the more people will realize that safety is something that we're going to have to build without the infrastructure that pretends to offer a safety, but absolutely does not. And legally is not required to. Brooke 14:21 Yeah, I didn't know all the backstory of that. But, I know that that one went to the Supreme Court. And that became, you know, the national standard, because I remember reading about that part of it that, yeah, they don't, they don't have they don't have a duty to protect. Margaret 15:27 I think it was the stabby guy on the train. But I, you know, I'm not like a classic thing rememberer, it's not like my skill set. I didn't put my points in character creation in memory. Brooke 15:41 Well important thing there is was the the outcome of that. The other big bad shooting I remember making the news pretty loudly this year was also the Highland Park Parade shooting that actually happened in July. So that was a couple of months later. But yeah, good times. Guns. Margaret 15:58 Hurray. [sadly] Brooke 15:59 All right. So, we moved into June. And a couple of things are going on, on the global stage. Flooding began in Pakistan. And that flooding continued for a couple of months. We talked about this on one of our This Month, episodes, and even to right now, there is still flooding. And that flooding that did occur, you know, has displaced 1000s, if not millions of people. And it's really, really fucked things up and continues to fuck things up in Pakistan. Margaret 16:25 And I would say that flooding in general, is one of the things that we're seeing more and more of all over the world. And it's one of the things that like...I think a lot of people and maybe I'm just projecting, but you know, I grew up thinking of floods as sort of a distant thing. And then actually where I lived, most recently, we all had to leave because of constant flooding as climate changed. And I think that floods need to be something....It's the opposite of quicksand. When you're a kid you think about quicksand is like this thing to like, worry about, and then you grow up and realize that like quicksand is like not...don't worry about quicksand. That's not part of your threat modeling. And, so I think that flooding is something that whether or not it was on something that you were really worried about, wherever you live, it is something that you should pay attention to. It's not like, a run out and worry, right. But, it's a thing to be like more aware of, you know, there was recent...New Years in San Francisco and Oakland, there was really bad flooding. And then again, a couple of days later, might still be going on by the time people listen to this, but I'm not actually sure. And you know, there's the footage of people running out with like boogie boards or surfboards or whatever into the streets and, and playing in the flood. And, I'm not actually going to sit here on my high horse and tell people to never go into floodwater, you shouldn't, it is not a thing you should do, but it is a thing that people do. But I think people don't recognize fast moving currents, how dangerous they are, just how dangerous floods are, no matter how they look. And, if there's more than a foot of water, don't drive through it. Brooke 17:58 Yeah, if you're not experienced with floods, those are things you wouldn't know. So I have, you know, you said, that wasn't a big thing in your childhood, but because of where I live, it you know, I don't know if this is true of all the Pacific Northwest, but certainly, in my town, flooding is a big concern, we''re right on a river, and when there was bad rainstorms back in 96', like most of downtown got flooded. I mean, I was I was a kid then. I was I was a youth. And that experience, you know, kind of informed some of my youth, you know, we had a lot of lessons learned about how to manage flooding, what you do and don't do inflooding. So that's something that's been in the forefront of my mind. And yeah, as I see other people dealing with flooding for the first time in the news, it's like, oh, no, no, you don't. No. That's bad. Don't do that. Don't go in those waters. But it's their first time. They wouldn't know. Margaret 18:53 Yeah. Unless you were like, directly saving something or someone, especially someone, and then even then you have to know what you're doing. You know, they're a bigger deal, even smaller ones are a bigger deal than you realize, I guess is the thing to say about floods. Anyway, so Okay, so where are we at? Brooke 19:10 We're still in June, because there was, you know, in addition to the inflation, and the flooding, and the heat waves, and the war going on, and people dying of a pandemic, this little thing happened in the US where the Supreme Court's overturned a little a little old law called Roe v. Wade. Margaret 19:29 That was about two different ways of interacting with water? [joking] Brooke 19:33 Yes, exactly. Ties, ties, right and flooding there. Yeah. It was just a minor... Margaret 19:39 Yeah, that's my joke about people losing their capacity to control their own bodies. Just a little light hearted joke. Very appropriate. Brooke 19:48 As a person with a uterus, I genuinely can't...i can't joke about that one. Like, it's just too close to home. Margaret 19:54 Yeah, fair enough. I'm sorry. Brooke 19:57 No, it's I'm glad that you are, because it is good to laugh about these things that are actually very upsetting. It's how, it's part of our, you know, grieving process, how we deal with it as being able to laugh a little bit. Margaret 20:08 Yeah. Yeah, although and then, you know, okay, so we've had this like, fight, you know, America's polarizing really hard about a lot of very specific issues: people's ability to control the reproductive systems being a very major, one people's ability to control their hormonal systems and the way they present being another one, I'm sure I'll talk about that more. And, you know, the, the weirdly positive thing that happened this week that I started writing notes about, but didn't finish, is about how there's now...they're changing the laws about how the accessibility of abortion pills and so that they're going to be available in more types of stores for more people in the near future. This will not affect people who are in abortion ban states. So it's this polarization, it's becoming easier to access reproductive health and control in some states, and it's becoming harder and illegal to access it in other states. My other like, positive...It's not even a positive spin. It's the glint of light in the darkness is that abortion was illegal for a very long time in the United States, and people did it, and had access to it and not as well, and it is better when it is legal. Absolutely. But underground clinics existed. And people did a lot of work to maintain reproductive health. And now we have access to such better and safer tools for reproductive health, whether you know, it's access to abortion pills, or just everything about reproductive health has...we know a lot more about it as a society than at least medical and Western, you know, methods of abortion. We know a lot more about than we did a couple decades ago. And then, the other big thing that I keep thinking about...so there was the Jane Collective, right, in the US is I'm just like moving into history mode. Is that annoying? Brooke 22:06 Go for it. Margaret 22:07 Teah. It's my other fucking podcast, all history and so like there's the Jane Collective in the US. And they were really fucking cool. And they provided all these abortions to people in Chicago, and they actually pioneered a lot of methods of abortion and pushed forward a lot of important shit, right? In the 1920s, in Germany, anarchists ran more than 200 abortion clinics. Basically, if you wanted an abortion in 1920s, Germany, you went to the syndicalists, you went to the anarcho syndicalists. And because they sat there, and they were like, "Oh, a large amount of crime needs to be done on an organized fashion. And what is anarcho syndicalism? But a way to organize crime?" In this case, usually it's like class war against bosses and illegal strikes and stuff. But, "How do we organize that on a large scale?" And the anarchists were the ones who had the answer answers to, 'How do you organize crime on a large scale,' and I want to know more about that information. I haven't found that much about it in English yet. But, that kind of thing gives me hope. It gives me hope that we can, it's better when it is legal, I'm not being like, this is great, you know, it's fucked up, but we can do this. And, you know, on this very podcast, if you listen to one of the Three Thieves, Four Thieves? Some Number of Thieves Vinegar Collective, Margaret, famous remember of details, they they talk about their work, developing reverse engineering or making accessible, different abortion drugs and how to basically like, create them, and get them to where they need to be, regardless of the legality of those things. But, you might have more to say about this, too. I just wanted to go into history mode. Brooke 23:50 No, I I liked that. And yeah, you did those episodes in a few different ways about it that are super important. I mean, I don't think I need to rehash why Roe is so important. We we know that, you know, and it's not just about reproductive rights for people with uteruses, either. It's about the trends towards you know, bodily autonomy and regulation of bodies. And you know, what that signals as well, it's an issue for everybody. Margaret 24:17 Yeah. And remember, like at the very beginning, some people were like, they might be coming for birth control next, and everyone's like, Nah, they're not coming for birth control. And now you can see the same, the same right wing people who are like, "We should probably just kill the gay people." They like say it and city council meetings. They're also being like, "And birth control on my right, like, fuck that thing?" Brooke 24:36 Yeah. Frustrating. Margaret 24:39 Yeah. Get it out of someone's cold dead hands. Brooke 24:45 Yeah, this is one of those things where the months don't necessarily compare. Yeah. Margaret 24:49 There's that meme....Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, go. Brooke 24:52 We...you know there were historic heat waves going on. Continued flooding and droughts. And all kinds of climate nastiness. And then in, in Tariff Island, we saw a whole bunch of British officials resign, and then Boris Johnson resigning, which, you know, fuck the government and all of those kinds of things, and fuck that guy. But, it did also lead into this, what has been kind of a lot of turmoil in the UK as they've gone through now a couple of different prime ministers and just like, you know, just the the, the sign of the crumbles of how just overwhelmingly corrupt political leaders are, you know, at this point in so called, you know, democratic and stable democracies, that, you know, they're falling apart too. Margaret 25:39 Now, that's a good point. Um, what year did that lady I didn't like die? What day? What month? Queen? Brooke 25:48 I didn't put down the month because that's a happy thing that happened, not a shitty thing. Margaret 25:51 I know. Remember positive things about 2022. And like, stadiums full of like, Irish folks being like, "Lizzie's in a box. Lizzie's in a box." There's like some positive things. Brooke 26:08 I might rewatch some of those after this, just for a little pick me up. Margaret 26:11 Yeah. The people dancing in front of the palace, anyway. Yeah. I don't like colonialism or monarchy. I don't know if anyone knew this about me. Brooke 26:20 Yeah. No, same. I've been trying to explain to my kid about why Queen Elizabeth was bad. And she's having a hard time. Because, you know, children and fantasies and stories and kings and queens, and blah, blah, blah. Margaret 26:32 Yeah. Which is the fucking problem. Brooke 26:34 Yeah, a similar kind of thing happened in August in terms of like, you know, unstable, so supposedly stable governments, in that the the FBI had to raid Mar-a-Lago and Trump which, again, fuck Trump and the FBI and the federal government and all of that, but as a sign of, you know, our democracies actually not being very sound, and how just grossly corrupt politicians are and stuff, the only way they could get back a bunch of confidential documents and like, nuclear related stuff was to fucking invade a former president. Yeah. Also in August Yeah. monkeypox started hitting the news, which of course, speaking of culture was, right, that led into a whole bunch of stuff about, you know, a bunch of anti-gay stuff and reminders of what the AIDS epidemic was like, and just a whole bunch of fucking nonsense up in the news because of that. Margaret 27:32 God, I barely remember that. Brooke 27:34 Right, I think we did it on an episode, a This Month episode. Margaret 27:38 I mean, I remember it now. It's just there's so much. There's so much. Yeah. Yeah. Brooke 27:44 So September brought us protests starting to erupt in Iran. Finally. There was a woman, Masha Amini, who was arrested, you know, they had been doing caravans, were doing these crackdowns and the morality police and stuff. And so that was the start of a bunch of turmoil there that went on for at least three months. It's finally settled down some last month. But that was going on, and then also towards the end of the month hurricane Ian hit in Florida. So, not to make it all about the climate. But again, historic hurricanes and flooding and stuff. Margaret 28:19 Yeah. And these things are related to each other. I mean, like, as you have global insecurity caused by climate, it's going to show all of the cracks in the systems and like, it's hard, because it's like, overall, you know, I see the the attempted revolution, the uprising in Iran is an incredibly positive thing and like reminder of the beauty of the human spirit. And also, like, what happened, the end result of that, that, I don't even want to say, 'end result,' though, right? Because like, every social struggle is going to ebb and flow. And, our action is going to cause reaction. And you know, and whenever people have uprisings, they remember power. They also remember fear, right? And the system is hoping that people remember fear. And the people are hoping that they remember power, you know, and, and it seems impossible to predict which uprisings will lead to fear and which ones will lead to power in terms of even when they're crushed, right? Whether that is the fertile soil for the next rising or whether it you know, has salted the earth to try and keep my metaphor consistent. Brooke 29:43 Nah, mixed metaphors the best. Okay, yeah, it's not a bad thing that people were protesting against what was going on there. It's it's awful that they had to get to that point that the morality police were so bad that they had to start protesting and ongoing conflict and unrest in the Middle East, never ending. Margaret 30:06 And I want to know more. I haven't done enough research on this yet, but another like hopeful thing about, you know, sort of global feminist, radical politics, there's been a recent movement of men in Afghanistan, who are walking out of exams and walking out of different positions that only men are allowed to hold, you know, in schools and things like that, in protest of the fact that of women's disinclusion. Brooke 30:33 Okay, I hadn't heard anything about that. So that's, yeah, We'll have to add that to a This Month, because I want to know more about that too. That sounds really positive. Margaret 30:40 Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know whether it's, you know, happened three times, and it's caught headlines each time or I don't know enough about it to talk about it as a movement. But it matters. That kind of stuff matters. And yeah, it's hopeful. Brooke 30:57 Well, we moved into October and the fall season, and y'all might remember this little one, some South African asshole named Elon Musk, Mosh, Mosk, whatever that guy's name is, Margaret 31:10 He's named after the rodent, the muskrat. Brooke 31:13 Okay, that'll be easy to remember. That guy officially took over at the only social media platform that I don't mostly hate, which is Twitter. A lot of his fucked-up-ness...Nah, he did some of that the first week, that was still in October. And then definitely more came after that. But, he's destroying the microblogging site that we all love so much. Margaret 31:36 Yeah, I will say, my favorite meme that come out of that was basically like, you know what, I've decided that I am okay with Elon Musk being in charge of the exodus of all the rich people to Mars. [Laughs] Brooke 31:50 Yes, winning. Do that quickly. Margaret 31:53 Yeah. He'll fuck it up. Like he fucks everything up. You've seen Glass Onion? Brooke 31:58 Yes, I did. Margaret 32:00 I don't want to like spoil it for people. But, I'll just say that movie did a really good job of pointing out that Elon Musk is just a fucking...is not an intelligent person, is not doing genius things. And it was pointed out really well. Brooke 32:15 Can I point out something embarrassing? Margaret 32:17 Absolutely, it's just you and I here. Brooke 32:21 No one will ever know. I didn't realize when I watched it that that guy was supposed to be a parody of like Elon Musk specifically. I thought it was just like generic, you know, rich people are terrible. And then it wasn't till like after I watched it, and everyone else started watching it and commenting that it was Musk and I was like, "Oh, damn, obviously it is." Margaret 32:42 Yeah, it's the like, the car thing and the space thing are the main nods. I mean, it's at the same time. It could be Bezos it could be any fucking, like tech billionaire asshole. But I think it was, I think it was intentionally Musk. Brooke 32:56 Yeah, I've got to rewatch it with that in mind. I was too busy going, "Oh, it's that guy. It's that actor or actress. Someone I know that person. Enjoy the characters. Yeah. That was a thing that happened in December, but we haven't done November, so November, Powerball made some poor asshole into a billionaire. So I feel bad for that guy. Yeah. So the Powerball, nobody had won it for like three months, and the pot got up to like $2 billion. And a single a single person had the winning ticket when it was finally pulled. Which, if they take the cash payout, which I think most people do, it's actually only $1 billion. And then, probably the government takes that. So you're only half a billionaire, probably by the time all is said and done. But still, that's, you know, what a way to fuck up the rest of your existence by suddenly having that much money. Margaret 33:51 I'm like, I'd take a shot. Brooke 33:56 I like to think, you know, I have this list of all these nice things that I would do and people I would support and love, but the evidence bears out that anyone who's ever won something like that doesn't make all the great choices. Margaret 34:09 No, no. Okay. Yeah, I think you need to have a council of people who direct...I think that any anarchist who's like, possibly going to end up rich, like, whether through inheritance or becoming the next Stephen King or whatever needs to, like, seriously consider how the dealing with that money should be a collective effort and not an individual effort. Anyway. Brooke 34:35 I agree. Yeah. Margaret 34:36 I went through this when, at one point, I did not get...I did not become a millionaire. But, at one point, Hollywood was interested in one of my my books, and we had long conversations about it. I had conversations with the Hollywood director around it, about whether or not they would adapt a certain book of mine into a TV show. And it didn't work out in the end. But, I like sat there and mathed it out and was like, oh, if they make it TV show out of my book, I will become a millionaire. And like, what would that mean? And, and so that's when I started having these, like, which just totally the same as winning the Powerball and having a billion dollars, and also not just not my weird...I don't know, whatever. Now everyone knows this. Brooke 35:16 I don't think that's a unique thing. Yeah, so that happened in November. And that sucks. And it didn't make the news the way it should have. So I just wanted to highlight that horribleness. And then, also that orange clown douchebag potato that lives in Florida, said that he's going to run for president again. So, we have that to look forward to. But, then the third thing that happened, which isn't just isolated to November, but the World Cup started, and I have nothing against football, love football, the World Cup as a concept. Fine, but there are so many problems, much like the Olympics, with the way they do it. And what happens around all that. Margaret 36:00 Yeah, yeah, I love...I love that I should be able to like a lot of things. And then the way that they're done by our society precludes me from really deeply enjoying them. Brooke 36:10 Why do you have to take such a nice thing and ruing it. Margaret 36:13 All things. All things. You could name anything, and we could talk about how capitalism and fucking imperialism ruined it. Brooke 36:20 Yeah, pretty much. Down with those systems. Alright, so now we're finally getting into the end. You'll remember this one, because it was only like a month ago that there were some targeted attacks in North Carolina on power stations. 40,000 people without power for several days, in fact, it wasn't like a quick fix thing. They really fucked some shit up there. One that I didn't hear about, but that has some pretty big implications is that the country of Indonesia banned sex outside of marriage, even for foreigners living in their country, and stuff. Brooke 36:54 Yeah. So, I don't know if the ramifications for that are. I didn't dig deeper into like, what is the consequence of you doing that. But you know, Indonesia's massive. I mean, that populations huge. Margaret 36:54 I had no idea. Margaret 37:05 Yeah, Lousiana just banned, as of I think January 1, you're not allowed to access porn on the internet from Louisiana without showing a government ID to the website. Which, means that now everyone, basically they passed a law saying you have to install a VPN in order to access porn in Louisiana. Brooke 37:27 That's madness. Margaret 37:29 Yeah, and it fucks up sex workers, right? Like any of this stuff, any of this bullshit, it always just fucks sex workers. Brooke 37:39 Yeah, they become the victims of the law, even though they're not, they're not the bad guys here. And in porn, they're never the bad guys, Pro sex workers. My last horrible thing that happened in December was that China decided to just completely give up on all of its COVID protocols that it spent the whole year continuing to be super restrictive, and have lock downs and all of that. And then all of a sudden, it's just like, "No, we're not gonna do any of that anymore." Oh, just a great way to change policy is just to stop completely all of a sudden. Yeah. Margaret 38:15 I just think it's really funny, because it's like, what? Sometimes people like really talk about how they want like a multipolar world where there's like, it's like what people use to defend the USSR, right, is that they're like, well, at least, there was someone competing with the US or whatever. But, when I think about COVID response, there was always like the US response, which was absolute dogshit. And then there was the Chinese response, which was like, too authoritarian and caused a lot of suffering and all of these things, but, was not a non response. And now, that one has fallen as well. And there's just like, I mean, there's more countries than the US and China. I'm reasonably sure. I couldn't promise. So, hurray, we're in it. We're just in it. That's...this is just COVID world now. It's COVID's world. We just live in it. Brooke 39:13 Yeah, exactly. So I think you had some, like bigger overarching trends of things that happened in 2022. Margaret 39:21 A lot of the stuff I have is a little bit like what we have to look forward to. Brooke 39:26 Oh, nice. Margaret 39:27 Just some like nice, light stuff. The National Farmers Union in the UK says that the UK is on the verge of a food crisis. Brooke 39:35 Great. Margaret 39:36 Yields of tomatoes and other crops, especially energy intensive ones like cucumbers and pears are at record lows. And there's already an egg shortage in the UK, and a lot of places where there were stores are rationing sales of eggs, you can only buy so many eggs at any given time. And, it's not because there's no chickens. It's that rising costs of production have convinced more and more farmers...it's a capitalism thing in this like really brutal way. It's the markets logic, right? If it costs too much to produce a thing, don't produce it. But, when the thing you do is produce food, there's some problems here. Brooke 40:13 Are there? Margaret 40:14 And I mean, I'm a vegan. And I got to admit, when I hear things like, they're cutting back beef production, because it costs too much. I'm like, that's good. That is good for animals. And that is good for the climate. However, that's not being replaced with more of other types of foods. So it's not necessarily good. Brooke 40:33 And if Casandra were here, and she has very restrictive things on what she can eat, because of her health, she would be jumping in to say, "But protein!" because she needs to be able to have access to that. Margaret 40:45 No, totally. And I'm not trying to, I'm not like specifically pushing for a vegan world. And I recognize that everyone's bodies are different, and have different needs around a lot of things. But, I do think that data shows fairly clearly that the level of animal agriculture that we do, especially in centralized ways, across the world is a major driver of climate change. And, it is a major driving of a lot of really bad stuff. It's just a very inefficient way to produce food for a large number of people. This is different at different scales. And I am not, I'm not specifically trying to advocate for...Yeah, I don't think a vegan world is a good or just idea. I think it is perfectly natural for people to eat animals. However, I think that there's both needless suffering that can be cut back and as well as like, just specifically from a climate change point of view. So... Brooke 41:39 I hear you. Margaret 41:39 That said, UK, dealing with egg shortage. Basically, farmers might stop selling milk because of production...that it cost so much to produce the milk. Not like, I'm sure there's still farmers who are going to produce milk. But, more and more farmers are stopping. Beet farmers are considering the same. There's also just literally about 7000 fewer registered food production companies in the UK than three years ago. Brooke 42:04 Wow. Margaret 42:05 Because at least in the UK, fertilizer costs have tripled since 2019. And diesel costs are up at about...both feed and diesel costs are up about 75% from what they were before. Shortages. The infant formula shortage might last until Spring according to one major formula producer. We very narrowly avoided a major disruption as a result of a diesel shortage in the United States recently. Basically, they like brought more diesel plants...I don't know the word here, refineries? Refineries, like online kind of at the last minute, like because there was going to be like really major disruptions in the way that we move food and other things around the United States because of diesel shortages. Let's see what else... Brooke 43:00 Have...I'm super curious here, have food shortages in the UK ever caused problems of any kind? It seems like that's not a big deal. Like they're...they can deal with that. Right? That hasn't killed anyone, right? Margaret 43:10 Ireland's not part of the United Kingdom. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. No, it's okay. I mean, it's interesting, because like, modern farming has really changed the face of famine. Famine used to be a very common part of...I can actually only speak to this in a very limited context, it's like something that came up in my history research, like Napoleon, the middle one, or whatever. I can't remember. Probably the second, maybe the third I'm not sure. The Napoleon who like took over and like 1840...8? Someone is mad at me right now. In France, who modernized Paris and made it like, impossible to build barricades and shit. Brooke 43:52 We can FaceTime, Robert, real quick and find out. Margaret 43:55 Yeah, yeah, totally. And, but one of the things that he did, or rather, that happened under his reign as a part of 19th century development, is that famine had been a very major common regular part of French life. And it ceased to be, and famine is something that the modern world, developed parts of the modern world, have been better at minimizing as compared to like, some historical stuff. Obviously, a lot of this just gets pushed out into the developing world. And you know, famine is a very major part of a great number of other countries' existence. But, I think that people get really used to the idea that famine doesn't really happen. And it does, and it can again, and it's similar what you're talking about, like we have this like, kind of unshakable faith in our democracies. But, they are shakable they, they they shake. Brooke 43:56 They've been shooked. Margaret 44:48 Yeah, they're They are not stirred. They're shaken. Okay. Okay, so other stuff: Pfizer's currently working on an RSV vaccine. I consider that positive news. My news here is about a month old. It's been given the like, go ahead for further studies and shit and, and that's very promising because we're in the middle of a triple-demic or whatever. But there's actually been as a weird positive thing. I mean, obviously, we've learned that society does not know how to cope with pandemics. But, one thing is we have learned a lot more about a lot of health stuff as a result of this, you know, and the types of new vaccines that people are able to come up with now are very, they're very promising. And a fun news, as relates to the climate change thing that's happening, more and more Americans are moving to climate at risk areas. Specifically, people are leaving the Midwest. And they're moving to the Pacific Northwest and Florida. And these are two of the least climatically stable from a disaster point of view areas in the United States. Brooke 46:04 Okay. Margaret 46:05 Specifically, specifically because of wildfire in the Pacific Northwest, and hurricanes in Florida. Also earthquakes on the West Coast and things like that, but specifically wildfire. And also within those areas, a thing that causes...humans have been encroaching into less developed areas at a greater rate. And this is part of what causes, obviously the fires are getting worse out west as a result of climate change, but it's also the way in which new communities are developed out west that is causing some of the worst damages from fires. So yeah, everyone's moving to those places. That's not a good idea in mass. I'm not telling individuals who live in those places to leave. And there's actually, you know, the Pacific Northwest has some like stuff going on about fairly stable temperature wise, and for most climate models, but this is part of why disasters are impacting more and more Americans as people are leaving the places to move to places where it's greater risk. Yeah, there's this map, just showing where people are leaving and where people are going to. And it's actually, there are other places that people are going to that would have surprised me like, Georgia, North Carolina, parts of Tennessee, like kind of like Southern Appalachian kind of areas, like more and more people are moving towards, and more and more people are leaving upstate New York, which really surprised me. But, and more people are leaving North Texas and moving to Southeast Texas, or like the general eastern part of Texas is growing very rapidly. Okay, what else have I got? Taiwan has set up a set group called the Doomsday Preppers Association, which is just sick, because it's called the Doomsday Preppers Association. And it's like, not a wing nut thing. And they have a wing nut name which rules, I'm all for it. There's about 10,000 people or so who are organizing together to prepare for natural disasters, and also to prepare for the potential invasion from China. Which, China's back to threatening to, to do that. And it's but, it's like people just like getting together to like, build networks, learn radios, and just like, be preppers, but in a, like, normalized way, and it's fucking cool. And, I'd love to see it here. Okay. What else? I don't have too many notes left. Florida, is expected to have major wildfires starting in 2023 according to the National Interagency Fire Center report, as well as Georgia, New Mexico and Texas. I'm willing to bet that New Mexico and Texas in particular, and probably Georgia, that's probably...those are very big states with very different bio regions within them. And, so I couldn't point you, if you live in one of those places, you might want to look for the National Interagency Fire Center Report, and read more about it. Brooke 48:56 Speaking of moving, it's a great time to get the fuck out of Florida. With like, I could have done almost every month something just atrocious happened in Florida. Margaret 49:06 Yeah. And one of the things that, you know, we talked a little bit about the culture war stuff. One of the things that's happened in 2023, overall, is that we've started to see more political refugees from within the United States to the United States. We have seen a lot of trans families, or families of trans children, have had to leave states where their providing medical care for their children has become criminal. Obviously also with the end of Roe v. Wade, a lot of people have had to change which state they live in. Although, I don't like doing this like comparison thing, because it's just fucked for everyone, but you can you can vacation your way out of pregnancy. You know? Brooke 49:50 I don't know that I've heard it described that way, but... Margaret 49:54 But if you want to be a 13 year old on hormone blockers, or whatever that you need in order to stay safe, a lot of people are moving, and a lot of people can't move. And there's really complicated questions that we all have to ask ourselves right now about like, stay and go. And like, like stay and fight, versus get the fuck out. And everyone's gonna have to make those questions differently. Okay, another positive thing a weird, like positive tech thing... Brooke 50:20 Yay positive. Margaret 50:22 So like I own, and I recommend it to people who spend a lot of time off grid or out outside the range of cell service. I own like a Garmin satellite communicator, it's a little tiny device, it looks like a tiny walkie talkie. And it can talk to satellites. And I can like text from anywhere in the world, I can see the sky, whether or not I have cell service. And more importantly than that, I can send an SOS. And these are fairly expensive things, they cost a couple hundred dollars. And then you have to sign up for service. And they make sense for people who are like backpacking a lot or driving in areas where there's no, you know, service or whatever, right? New new phones, specifically the iPhone 14, I hate to be like, I'm not telling everyone to run out get new phone, but as a trend is very positive, that some new phones have this already built in. So you won't need to have a separate device. And I think that is a very positive thing from a prepper point of view, to have access to a way to communicate when cell service is not there. Yeah, that is really important. And I have one final thing and it's very positive. Brooke 51:29 Okay, I'm ready. Margaret 51:30 It's actually a double edged sword. On January 5, I'm cheating. This was in 2023. On January 5, 2023, this current year, like last week, yesterday, as we record this, two assholes in Bakersfield, California tried to set an Immigration Services Center on fire, like it was a center that like, um, I mean, ironically, it helped undocumented folks or like immigrant folks pay income taxes, and like helped people navigate the paperwork of being immigrants, you know, because there's actually something that people don't know, all these like, right wing pieces of shit, is that like, undocumented people, like, many of them pay taxes. I don't know. Whereas a lot of the people who like to talk all kinds of shit about undocumented people, don't pay taxes. Anyway, whatever. What were you gonna say? Sorry. Brooke 52:16 Oh, just this, that as an economist, as a group, undocumented people pay more into the system than they as a group take out of the system. Margaret 52:25 That makes a lot of sense. So, there's an Immigration Services Center. Two assholes, tried to set it on fire. They set themselves on fire, fled the scene on fire and left their cell phone at the scene. The reason it's double edged is, because one it sucks that people attack this and they actually did do damage to the center as well, mostly to some equipment used by someone who ran I believe a carwash out of that shared some space or whatever. But yeah, they like poured accelerant everywhere. And then a guy just like, knelt down over the pool of accelerant and like, lit it. And then just like, his, like, his leg was on fire. So, his friend ran over to help and like got caught on fire too. And then, they just both like, ran out of range of, because it's all caught on camera, you know? And fuck them. And I hope that their fucking wounds are horrible. And by the time you listen to this, they were probably caught because they left their fucking phone there. And fuck them. That's my light news. Brooke 53:36 I'll take it. Margaret 53:37 Okay, what are you excited for, looking forward? Go ahead. Sorry. Brooke 53:40 Well, hopefully more fascists are gonna light themselves on fire and other types of right wing assholes. I mean, I would be very happy about that happening in 2023 Margaret 53:48 Yeah. May this be the year of Nazis on fire. Brooke 53:54 Yes. Agreed. That would be lovely. I don't know about...I don't know if I have a lot of global stuff that I thought about being positive. I have. I have like personal stuff, like I am going to be doing...hosting more these podcast episodes. I've got one coming up. Maybe this month, we're releasing it? But I did it all by myself. Yeah, more lined up to come out in the next couple of months and some really cool topics and people that I get to chat with. So I'm stoked about that. Margaret 54:21 That is also something I'm excited about for 2023 is that this podcast is increasingly regular and it is because of the hard work of me...No, everyone else. Is the hard work of everyone else who works on this show are like really kind of taking the reins more and more and it is no longer, it's no longer the Margaret Killjoy Show and I'm very grateful and I believe you all will too. And if you're not grateful yet, you will be, because there'll be actual other voices, like ways of looking at things and and more of it because, you know, one person can only do so much. So I'm really grateful for that. Brooke 55:03 I'm excited about this book that's coming out next month, that... Margaret 55:06 Oh, yeah? Brooke 55:07 Some lady I know, wrote it. And, and I got to do some editing work on it. And, it's hilarious and the cover is gorgeous. Margaret 55:17 Is it called "Escape from Incel Island"? Brooke 55:19 Yeah, that one. Margaret 55:22 Is this my plugs moment? Brooke 55:24 Did you know If you preorder it right now, you can get a poster of that gorgeous cover that comes comes with the preordered one? Margaret 55:31 And, did you know that if you preorder it, I get a cut of the royalties when the book is released for all the preorders, which means that I can eat food. Brooke 55:43 Oh, we like it when you get food. Margaret 55:44 And I like having food. Yeah. So, if you go to tangledwilderness.org, you can preorder "Escape from Incel Island" and get a poster. And it's a fun adventure book. You can literally read it in a couple hours. It's very short. It's a novella. It's, to be frank, it's at the short end of novella. But that makes it good for short attention spans like mine. Brooke 56:08 Yeah, that's dope. I'm looking forward to that. And there'll be some other books coming out from that Strangers Collective one, one that I just started editing, that I don't know how much we're talking about it yet or not. Margaret 56:20 It's really cool. Brooke 56:20 So, I won't give too much away here, but just sucked me right in as I was editing, and it's cool. I'm so excited to read the rest of it. And then for us to release it. Margaret 56:29 Yeah. All right. Well, that's our Year in the Apocalypse, 2022 edition. And I know...wait, you're doing the closing part. Brooke 56:40 Yeah, sure. Margaret 56:41 I'm just the guest. Brooke 56:43 No, you're my co host. Margaret 56:45 Oh, I'm just the co host. Okay. Brooke 56:47 Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious what other people think the worst things are that happened in 2022, if it's something that was on one of our lists, or something else that you know of, and reach out to us like on Twitter at tangledwild or Instagram, or you can reach out to me personally on Mastodon @ogemakwebrooke, if you can find me there. And the Collectiva Social, I think is my whatever, I don't remember how it works. But I'm yeah, I'm curious what other people would have to say is the worst which thing they want to vote for, if they have their own. So hit us up? Let us know. Margaret 57:22 Yeah, do it. Brooke 57:29 So, our listeners, we thank, we appreciate you listening. And if you enjoy this podcast, we would love it if you could give it a like or drop a comment or review or subscribe to us if you haven't already, because these things make the algorithms that rule our world offer our show to more people. The podcast is produced by the anarchist publishing collective Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. Like I said, you can connect with us on Twitter, Instagram, or me personally on Mastodon, or through our website tangledwilderness.org. The work of Strangers is made possible by our Patreon supporters. Honestly, we couldn't do any of it without your help. If you want to become a supporter, check us out patreon.com/strangersInatangledwilderness. There are cool benefits for different support tiers. For instance, if you support the collective at $10 a month, one of your benefits is a 40% off coupon for everything we sell on our website, which includes the preorders for Margaret's new book, we'd like to give a specific shout out to some of our most supportive patreon supporters including Hoss dog, Miciaah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Cat J., Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, Theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, paparouna, and Aly. Thanks so much. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co
Episode Summary Margaret and Casandra talk with Cindy Milstein about what anarchism actually is, why you should try it, possibly for life, the many horrors of fascism, and once again why community is all too important. They also talk about Milstein's new book from Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, "Try Anarchism for Life." Guest Info The guest is Cindy Barukh Milstein (they/them). Milstein can be found on Instagram @CindyMilstein on Twitter @CindyMilstein, on Wordpress at CBMilstein.wordpress.com on on Mastodon @CBMilstein. Their new book, "Try Anarchism for Life" can be purchased from our publisher at TangledWilderness.org Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Casandra can be found doing our layout at Strangers. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness Transcript Margaret 00:14 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm one of your hosts today. Margaret Killjoy. And also with me is Casandra. How are you doing, Casandra? Casandra 00:24 Pretty good. Margaret 00:26 Today's episode is an episode that a lot of people have been requesting, which is, 'what is anarchism?' This thing that we keep talking about on this show. And how should you talk about it with other people? Or I don't know, whatever. It's what isn't anarchism, and with us today as a guest is the author of Cindy Milstein. And I think that you all will hopefully get a lot out of this conversation. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Casandra 01:05 Hi, Milstein. If you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns. And just a little bit of background about why you're talking with us today. Milstein 02:05 Yeah. Hi, to both of you. My name is Cindy Barukh Milstein and I use 'they' and I'm talking to you two, who are both part of Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness publishing collective. And you are about to put out my...your first book, and my somewhere in a bunch of books I've done called, "Try Anarchism for Life." Yeah, so I'm super excited to think it's actually in the mail to me now the real copy. Very excited to see it. Casandra 02:45 That's handy that you authored a book about anarchism, and we want to talk about....anarchism. Milstein 02:53 Wow, coincidence. Good coincidence. Margaret 02:57 Wait, are you an anarchist? Milstein 03:01 Time will tell. Margaret 03:06 Is that like a 'we all aspire to this,' thing? Milstein 03:08 Yeah, that was gonna be one of my answers to what anarchism is. Or like that, you know, a friend of mine was talking about recently how they're from Greece, and how people don't actually, they....I forget the whole anecdote, but anyway, that you can't say your something until after your life is over, then people can say it about you. So, Casandra 03:33 Oh, interesting. Milstein 03:34 You know, because we're all,we all really are aspiring to be an anarchist. I hope. And, and, yeah, I guess I do use that label. And it's on the title of some of my books so... Margaret 03:45 Okay, well, that leads us into the first question, which is a question that I get a lot, that you might get a lot, which a lot of listeners of the show have. Milstein, what is anarchism? Milstein 03:59 Oh, okay. Joking ahead of time, that if I am Jewish, yes, one Jew, they have two opinions. But if you ask anarchists, we probably have even more, and if you're Jewish anarchists, thousands. So I guess I was thinking about this, there's so many ways to describe anarchism, but lately I've really been thinking about it as like life, how we make life in common life and care. And do that in collective ways through self determination, self organization, self governance, because most of what we're facing that is not anarchism are different forms of deaths machines. So yeah, lately I've been thinking about what is that? You know, what does that mean to be staunchly in not just an advocate out but like actually, actively engaging in forms of bringing in essentially life? But yeah, I guess the other ways people...or I describe anarchism often is a compass, or sort of horizon made up of a bunch of ethics, which you often highlight on this show through various practices of like mutual aid and solidarity and collective care and all sorts of other nice warm and fuzzy ways we do good in this world or try to create better worlds. But yeah, I guess the nutshell other version, I would say is, to me, anarchism is both the absence and presence, and the absence of all forms of hierarchy and domination or striving to lessen them as much as possible. But, it's no good unless there's a presence of something to fill in those absences. Like, I don't know, anarchism isn't just like, we hate everything, let's like, you know, hate capitalism, patriarchy, chaos, whatever. But what is the presence of what we want and that's actually for me, where anarchism really shines, as a philosophy and practice of freedom, and liberation and liberatory practices of all sorts. So, I really like to think about that part of anarchism. And, and so therefore, the, that means that anarchism as a practice, which to me embodies the whole of your life every second of the day, is constantly juggling tensions, and between, you know, what we don't like and what we do and what we want to destroy, and what we want to create, or in a way, the core tension in anarchism is how do you create these beautiful societies and worlds based upon kind of balancing out freedom for each of ourselves and freedom, collectively? And, and that's hard. That isn't easy. But like, that's what anarchism is and is not. Like, we just want people to be free and do their own thing, which to me is capitalism or liberalism, or all these other things, like, "Fuck you, I'm gonna do my own thing." But anarchism is like, "No, you know, I should be able to become who I want to be. But I can only do that if you can do that too. And how we do that together is where it gets fun." And to me, that's what enter you know, a lot of what anarchism is about, that presence of all we do. So I don't know, what do you two think? Margaret 07:04 I mean, okay, one of the things that you touched on....I actually do I would define anarchism as this like striving for freedom, but I would I define freedom a little bit differently than, well, certainly liberalism or capitalism would. You know, my argument being we're not free if we like live alone in the woods, I tried it, actually, I still had a society to fall back on. But, you know, freedom is like, not just the individual in a state of nature, or whatever. Freedom is, is something that we create, and build cooperatively with each other, because if freedom is the ability to like, maximize my own agency and act in the ways that I would like to the most or whatever, right? We can create that with each other. And I basically, I make the argument that freedom is a relationship between people rather than a static state for an individual. And so, I do you believe in maximizing freedom, in that I believe in creating relationships of freedom between people. And I really like, and I don't remember who said it, I think I'm kind of paraphrasing it from Ursula Le Guin, is that anarchism is about the marriage of freedom and responsibility, that basically we need to all be as responsible to each other as possible so that we can maximize all of our, our freedom. And so that's like, kind of what I set out to do as an anarchist, is create these relationships of freedom. But, I guess I would say like, if I'm talking to someone who is like, "Well, what is anarchism?" I think at its like, core, it's like, simplest is, you know, yeah, like, as you said, you know, are like people trying to live in a world without oppressive hierarchies, right? You know, traditionally, in the sort of Western philosophical tradition that anarchism is most often reflected through, you have basically the idea of like, it comes out of an anti capitalist movement, it comes out of a movement against capitalism, and they said, "Well, also the state," you know, they were like, "The state and capitalism are intrinsically linked, we are opposed to all of them, or both of these constructs." And then people very quickly took it from there to be like, "and also patriarchy, and also white supremacy and also all of these, like systemic institutions of oppression." And, you know, anarchism is the movement against those things, but has, as you talked about, always been tied into, for most people also a sort of positive vision, the creation of a society without these things as a, as a desired thing to move towards. Milstein 09:39 Yeah, no, thanks for filling. I was I was thinking when you were speaking, it's like, so much of anarchism to me is it's like isn't a fixed thing. To me. That's why I like the idea of a horizon, your always kind of walking towards this beautiful thing, but you're never actually going to quite get there. But you know, like, you're never...you can see it but you can never fully, but so it's this process. And yeah, one other thing When you were speaking, I was reminded of as often I talked about anarchism is, like us together, figuring out different forms of social organization and different forms of social relationships that emphasize, you know, freedom and liberation and that it's impossible without the social, you know, like we we, we are social creatures. We can't possibly do this alone. Casandra 10:20 But I thought anarchism was about chaos. You mean anarchists are organized? Margaret 10:31 Sometimes we spend too much of our time on organization. Milstein 10:34 Or trying to organize. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, another way, another way. I think that's why I like tensions, because another tension to me is the tension between sort of, you know, freedom and spontaneity or how do you know, like, in a way, maybe it's playfully in the, in the, like, the word anarchism and anarchy, you know, you can't...anarchism is like we can make, we can try to figure out ways to like, create, you know, neighborhood assemblies and info shops, and mutual aid societies and all these other things. And then there's all this fun, spontaneous, spontaneous chaos and play and joy that happens that we never even thought of, and that we actually balance both those things we're not you know, just...Yeah, anarchism is like, I also think of anarchism is like being really dynamic and flexible and open, and kind of like, "Oh, that's a cool new idea. Let's try that." Versus like a lot of things like borders: "No, this was the line in the sand." or state: "No, you have to do that." You know, that's really different. Casandra 11:35 I feel like one of my favorite things about anarchism is that there are different ways to do anarchism. And that seems like counter intuitive still, even to a lot of anarchists. I'm thinking about like, I don't know, Twitter anarchists: "No, there's only one way to do this." Margaret 11:57 Yeah, the idea that we're like, gonna find the the one right way is inherently broken. And I really liked the, you know, the quote from the anarchists adjacent, but not anarchistic or not not anarchist Zapatista is that, you know, "A world in which many worlds are possible is the goal." Yeah, and I like that it's, it's not about coming up with easy answers, or providing easy answers to people, which is actually I mean, it certainly limits our recruitment, because we're, we can't just be like, "Oh, well, here we have the answer. Anarchism is the answer." Anarchism, it's said is like a system by which to come up with answers collectively, amongst people, you know, it's like a, it's much easier to tell people what to do than to tell people to become free thinking individuals who work things out with each other, you know? Milstein 12:51 Yeah, yeah. No, like, maybe the emphasis on like experiments and processes and us together. And the way you use the answers as plural is, you know, most other sort of forms of...yeah, like, politically engaging, first of all, are limited to like, one sphere of your life. But you know, anarchism is like, "How can we make the whole of our, of our lives feel whole," and, but to do that, there isn't like, one way to do things. And so you know, actually, when people get...the more, I just find this time and time again, to always is so beautiful, it's like, the more people you get together, the more incredibly beautiful creative solutions you have, or ideas or experiments. And, you can actually try multiple ones of them at once. And that makes for this kind of beautiful ecosystem, which is maybe another thing we didn't talk about anarchism, I think it's very, like, ecological in, not in the sense of necessarily like, you know, environmentalism, or making things, you know, but, like, very holistic, and understands things in ways like complicated ecosystems where it's okay for difference to coexist in an ecosystem, and actually, that makes us more resilient and stronger, is like some of the most, like, I love walking, you know, and observing the world. And when you walk around and just see some of the most like, you know, sort of ecosystems that are thriving, they're thriving, because there's multiple different types of plants and animals and species, and, you know, engagements and interactions and experiments going on. And they all shift and change through that. So, how can we think of that? So? I mean, often when people think about anarchists, and you're like, "Oh, and what kind of anarchists are you?" and you know, "I'm a feminist, anarchist, or queer anarchist, or Jewish anarchist, or, you know, et cetera, et cetera," and like that's like, some sort of problem and anarchism, and I think we're just actually trying to articulate that freedom and that ecosystem has to bring in the fullness of who we are. And the fullness of who we are isn't always the same. And it's that beautiful kind of interplay between what we care about in our own lives and our own, you know, experiences and identities and yeah. So, I'm just kind of rambling, but I don't know, lately, I've just been thinking a lot about the anarchist ecosystem. And that's actually, you know, I mean, so much of, you know, like white Christian supremacy homogenizes everything from calendars to, you know, time, to how we make decisions, to, you know, capitalism gives you the same, you know, type of, you know, hamburger or coffee no matter where you are in the world if you know if it's trying to like flatten out everything or actually destroy all sorts of foods so all we think of this certain foods, you know. And most like large scale forms of hierarchy and domination to succeed, they they flattened, I mean, we're looking at fascism, unfortunately, appearing in a lot of parts of the globe right now. And it's all about an essence creating this, like, pure identity, that's homogeneous identity, that should be able to survive while the rest of us should be killed off. And I mean, ultimately, fascism. If it ever fully succeeded in instituting itself would die because there's no possible way any kind of ecosystem can exist if it has only has one pure sort of being, right? Margaret 16:13 Yeah, I think about the anarchist comicbook author, Alan Moore, makes this argument that the primary axis of politics in this world is not communism versus capitalism. It's not left versus right. It's, it's fascism versus anarchism as you know, these two opposing concepts and what you're talking about, but fascism is the making everything the same, in order to be strong. And then anarchism is about like, celebrating difference and creating....diversity as strength, you know, rather than, like, just unity as strength in this sort of fascistic context. Milstein 16:58 Or, again, life. I mean, fascism, it has to engage in genocide, because there's no other way to get rid of all those things that aren't the one pure right, you know, sort of body you're, and, and, and we're like, you know, okay, we have to try to, like, bring forward life, and in a sense, and I guess one thing, when you're speaking, I was also thinking about with anarchism, it's always hard to sort of explain well what is anarchism is like, sure, some people came up with the, like, a word and applied it to, you know, a specific political philosophy at a specific time period in history. And those people that became anarchist love to travel and they wandered around the world, they, you know, convinced other, you know, through inspiring other people, a lot of people became anarchists. But anarchism is, is, is really this tendency of life unfolding. And when you get to the social realm, it's of people together, unfolding that life together, to create different forms of social relationships that allow people to live in more cooperative, mutualistic mutually interdependent and co-responsible ways. And all the things, you know, solidaristic, carrying all the many ethics we can throw in, but humans have been doing that, since the beginning of time, and continue to do that. And when we look at, you know, uprisings that have happened recently, whether it's, you know, in Iran or the George Floyd uprising, or we can name hundreds and hundreds of others, small scale and large scale. During the pandemic, which is still ongoing when, you know, people formed all sorts of projects in small scale and larger scale forms of solidarity and mutual aid to take care of each other. It's it's like that's anarchistic and I particularly don't really care to turn everybody into an anarchist, or to have everybody even say, "Well, this is about anarchism." This like, we, I think that's why Zapatistas are also super influential to me. And they, they also were like, No, we look for all the places in which we can listen to each other and hear the way we're all engaging. And watch each other and share with each other and borrow from each other and all the ways that we're engaging in creating that life and not worry about the labels. Worry about, and celebrate those places where people are like, throwing off hierarchy and domination, but not just throwing that off, but making their own lives together and going, "This is what we want our lives to be." I really think that's what's so powerful about these moments. It's like, you know, the uprisings, you know, the, all the hierarchical structures will say, "Oh, they don't know what they want. They're just angry. They're just ripping things down. They're just destroying things." And any of us who've been in these moments, or have done a mutual aid project with anyone, or done anything large or small, you know, that's not...sure we're like, you know, a window gets broken or, you know, someone takes the food out of a little library and instead puts some...or books out a little library instead of puts you know masks or food during a pandemic. We, but what you realize is people are creating different forms of social relationships that are around love, and care, and beauty, and they're sharing with each other, and they're acting in profound forms of solidarity. I listened to this beautiful piece recently that was talking about the George Floyd uprising and how, in the first especially few days is like, it was the most like counter to all this sort of conquer divide around race politics in the United States moment. Because suddenly, people...and all sorts of other things class, gender, age, all these people were acting in this beautiful concert, sharing, and helping each other get away from cops, but also sharing food, and knowledge, and joy, and painting murals. And, you know, when...I really remember Unicorn Riot, which is a great like anarchistic news media project, when they were up close filming the precinct being burned down, they walked in and go, "Oh these people are destroying the third precinct, police station," and then they walked in with their camera, and you're inside watching people trash the place, and it being set on fire. And then people's faces were joyous. And people walked outside and had a party basically. And I was like, watching that live. And going, this is why we revolt, we revolt....Why we just, quote, destroy things, destroy police stations that kill people, you know, status structures that are all these things, we're not destroying the...our lives, and we're actually...but that we do it so we can have that joy with each other. I'm rambling now. But I just I feel like that's the thing that gets so lost, but all of us that are part of these moments know it, and we have to....like anarchism asks you, this is a really, I think, a really powerful thing to trust in yourself and those around you to know we can do this. And, you know, there's nothing we have except sort of the trust of the things we promise each other in anarchism, because there's no you know, police force or bureaucracy or anything else. There's just this profound, deep promise and trust in each other. And we actually know that when we do it, we feel it, it feels different. It feels like life. It feels like love. Casandra 22:05 We've talked about that some in terms of community preparedness, when we're talking about things like natural disasters. And my understanding is that they're realizing that when these giant catastrophes happen, whether it's like a social catastrophe, or natural disaster, or something, people tend to band together, and work together,r and help each other in larger degree. It's almost like, it's like a natural way for us to be or something. Margaret 22:33 With the exception of the elites, right, you get that elite panic thing, if you have...I hate using the word elites, but it's, no, it's in the name of the like, the people who have power within a society are the people who don't band together in times of crisis, and instead try to like violently enforce the status quo. And, disaster studies stuff talks about that. That's the name they use. Casandra 22:58 Of course they do. Milstein 22:59 I feel like what's so sad is that we have you know, like, I hope that as an anarchist, I really hope we don't like be like, "Oh, romanticize disaster," as the places that this happens. You know, disasters are happening to us. We are... we want to create a society where, yeah, those moments show us that. But then we're like, "Wow, we can do this all the time. We don't have to just do this in disasters." Although we're pretty much in disaster constantly. We're in disaster always. I don't know, I don't also want to romanticize, Oh, I feel so great that we have this horrible, you know...fascism is getting worse. We're actually helping each other like, you know, provide community self defense in these wonderful ways. You know, it's like, all that does is point to I mean, you know, the point to the sort of, anarchistic dream of you know, autonomous communities or liberated zones, or all these places, in which we would still have arguments and we would still, you know, have behaviors that would harm us and antisocial behaviors, but they would be, I guess, I guess the other thing I want is you know is whenever you do these experiments that are anarchistic things still happen that don't feel great, but they happen to such a lesser degree, and we have so many more beautiful ways of dealing with them that aren't about prisons and police. And...or we try to at least, you know, we aspire to that, again, like going back to the beginning is like, everyone's like, "You know, you have all these, like, abolitionist ways of dealing with conflict, but yet we're not good at it." And I was like, "Well, how would we be, we've been raised in this culture for, you know, hundreds of years now, at this point, sadly, of, you know, police and until we're a few generations, which, again we have the Zapitistas to show us, because I think they've been around long enough to begin to be able to show us this is that, you know, their children and their children's children, I think they're now probably have grandchildren that have come out of them that have lived in autonomous communities, is each new generation is more able to do it better, you know, which is why in a lot of diasporic and long long time traditions that way, precede, you know, states and capitalism and a whole bunch of things. A lot of times the numbers, like seven is really prominent. And we think of, you know, some indigenous cultures talk about seven generations. Jewish, you know a lot of looking back to seven, like cycles of seven, and that it may take, you know, seven generations to be able to actually forget, like, sort of erase the socialization of how you know, and learn better ways to do this. So we're not instantly gonna have...I just want to emphasize you know anarchism is not, "Oh, great, everything's wonderful now," it's just about, we're gonna do things a lot better and more and better and better still, the longer we can hold and sustain these spaces of possibility. Margaret 23:00 Yeah, I want to ask a question for each of us, which is, how did you become an anarchist? Or how did you realize you're an anarchist? Or however you choose to define that? I don't know who wants to go first? It looks like Milstein... Milstein 25:49 Or one of you two? Margaret 25:58 Alright, I'll go first. Can't see, but Casandra opted out by putting their finger on their nose. My story is very, like pithy, but also true, which was that, you know, when I was like, when I was a teenager, I was not excited about any of the political options that were presented to me. I had this like, brief moment where I was a libertarian, because I took a quiz online, and it said, and it had been made by the Libertarian Party. And it was like, "Well, do you like freedom? You must be a libertarian." And my, like, communist girlfriend was like, "No corporations would run everything." And I was like, "Okay, well, that's true." But, I don't want to be a communist, as I understood it, at that time, meaning like, state communist or whatever, right? And still don't. And, so I just kind of didn't care about politics. I was like, vaguely social democrat. And then I went to this protest in New York City on February 2, 2002, it's part of the, you know, gets called the ultra globalization movement, or whatever. And, and the anarchists were like wearing masks despite a mask ban in New York City. And I was like, "That's cool," right. And I didn't know anything about the anarchists, except that they were willing to wear masks, despite being told they weren't allowed. And that was like "That rules." So, I went up to this kid wearing a mask. And I was like, "Hey," and I'm 19, or something...well not 'or' something. I was 19. I said," Hey, what's this anarchism thing?" And he's like, "Well, we hate the state, and capitalism." And I was like, "Well, what are you gonna do about it?" And he's like, "Well, we're gonna build up alternative institutions while attacking the ones that are destroying the world." And I was like, "Well, do you have an extra mask?" And he was like, "Yeah." And he gave me a black bandana and I tied it around my face. And I became an anarchist. And I've not really looked back. Casandra 27:53 That's the initiation, is donning a black bandana. Margaret 27:56 Yeah. And like, you know, that day, I got, like, rounded, I got kettled. And I spent like, I don't know, five hours or something with like, 10 of us surrounded by like, fucking 20 cops or whatever. And, you know, then it was like, this very powerful moment in my life. And then it, it took me a long time to sort of like, become part of the sort of anarchist scene or milieu or whatever. But from that day forth, it was I called myself an anarchist. Casandra 28:30 My story is less exciting. I had a really conservative, really religious upbringing, to the extent that I like, went to seminary and stuff. And when I turned 18, it was the first time I could vote. And, the discrepancies I was seeing between how we were told to vote and what we were taught was theologically sound was too much for me. So, I left, and, like the deconstruction of like, those things I was raised with and my concept of authority, the natural progression was just becoming an anarchist. It also helped that Crimethinc was based out of my hometown. So, I like lived and worked at the Crimethinc house for a while and got you know, exposed to all sorts of baby anarchist ideas through that. Milstein 29:26 Oh, I love you're an anarchist. I love hearing stories because they're all different and great. Yeah, yeah. They're never isn't a form...Yeah, for a while I was there must be a formula to this. But, there are no which is actually yeah, no, it's great. Casandra 29:42 How about you? Milstein 29:44 Yeah, I feel like there was preconditions that made me like sort of like what you're talking about, Margaret that made me like, kind of looking for anarchism for most of my life, including like, my parents were like overgrown kids because of their own trauma. And so they made me their parent from the very beginning. And so they really let me like self determined with me and my friends. And we were always creating our own self organized spaces or going off on adventures. But, so were my parents. And so I also had to be...learn a lot of responsibility and how to take care of people, because otherwise no one else would. So in a way, it's like a traumatic responses, as like, you know, and I think from ancestors, I don't know. I more and more believe that there's, like, ancestral, both trauma and joy that has, like, made me understand that like, to sort of be diasporic, to be not...you know, do you make community where you are with those who are with you, and you take care of each other. And this vague notion of like, our goal, or sort of our aim as humans is to, you know, be as good as we can and try to create as good a world as we can, that just, there's all these preconditions that so I was kind of always looking around going, Oh, maybe this political orientation, or this group or that group? And I was like, nope, nope, nope. And then, you know, and then I met some anarchists in Vermont, Burlington, Vermont, where I was living, and they were like, "Hey, why don't you read this?" And they kept handing me free articles and books. And then they were like, "Hey, why don't you come to this self organized cafe where, you know, everyday, things are mostly free, but you can throw in money in a jar, if you want on, there's events going on." Or, "Hey, why don't you come join us in some of the organizing we're doing." And I just, I, they were just so generous, they kept just gifting me. And it wasn't like they were asking me to be them or to change or they weren't even, you know, they were just like, this kind of like, I guess that's right, come back to the sort of, like trust and faith in anarchism is like, you don't have to like sell it to people, you can gift it, you know, and share it and and then they're like, "Hey, do you want to come here, Murray Bookchin speak at something called the Institute for Social Ecology that was happening then and Murray would, you know, I went to hear him speak and 12 hours later, after his first talk, he because he would just talk during this program. And people came from all over the world, so there were anarchists from all over the world sitting in this room, and it was like, wow, they're anarchists, and multi generational, all different ages listening, you know, and asking him questions and engaging. And I was like, whoa. And then as he came up to afterward, my friends introduced me and they go, "Hey, this is our friend, Cindy, Murray," and Murray's like, you know, "Where do you live?" I go, "Burlington" and he was like, "What's your last name?" And then he goes, "You need to study with me." Margaret 32:25 That's amazing. Milstein 32:26 And then he like, really, like, as he did for many, many people, he's just like, "Come to my house." And we would like, you know, he lived very, very modestly often in like, a studio, and we just, like, would crowd around this room and just read and, you know, so I just started with him and anarchists in that community doing organizing and reading and studying. And, yeah, and also, I never looked back from there, too. And I think it's because Murray, you know, maybe because we had affinity, because we're both like, culturally, really similar. And, but he's, like, you know, "I want to give you, you know, you have to, like, think and act for yourself," and I'm so shaped by him in a way, you know, he was like, he was so interested in what we would do to...what we would, how we would replace the state with what. What would we replace capitalism? You know, what would we, you know, and it's like, and maybe that just, you know, felt like...I felt at home, I guess that's why we know, for the first time, like, "Oh, this is where I should be," you know, so. And that it wasn't, I guess, less than want to say is like that, that group and Murray...yeah. And then I start doing the same thing. There's a, you know, gigantic, you know, movements going on and, you know, I was in at that time period, then started you know, going to New York, Montreal, all these other places, because I love wandering around and there was all sorts of incredible anarchist organizing, and then big movements started, you know, similar the alt globalization, movement and movements were constantly people were like, hey, read my scene. Hey, do you want this Hey, do you want that? Hey, do you need water? Hey, do you need a mask? And that's just generosity of spirit like why would you not want that. I just feel like it's like I just feel like more and more I just into this kind of big social fabric of...which doesn't mean all anarchists have been nice to me or great to each other. It's just yeah, it's just overall it's like far more generous of spirit and yeah. So. Margaret 34:17 Well that that...one of the things that you brought up during that you know, going into this like multi generational meeting and seeing that there's like anarchists from all over the world. I think one of the things you know if the primary target of this particular episode Oh, I guess try and do it with every episode of Live Like the World is Dying is people who are may not know, the things that we're coming into it knowing right like so someone who's listening to this might have only barely heard of anarchists, or only seen I guess what I would kind of say is sort of the tip of the anarchist iceberg, like the most commonly seen or known elements of anarchism change over time. I would actually say I wonder right now if it's not the mutual aid projects, Casandra 34:57 Oh, I was gonna say that crappy documentary. Margaret 35:01 Oh god, I wasn't even trying to think of...we could talk about An-caps [anarcho-capitalists] later, but ya know, like, okay, but of the actual anarchist iceberg...because there's a very...I hate gatekeeping but there's a certain....anyway you know, when I was coming up, the tip of the anarchist iceberg was like the black bloc, you know, people wearing all black and matte...I'm literally wearing a black hoodie as I say this, but but I don't have a bandana over my face. But, that was part of me becoming an anarchist, I guess. But, you know, this, this idea of the people who wear all black and break things, right, is like the tip of the anarchist iceberg. And there's this like presumption that people have that is incorrect about all of those people being young, able bodied, like cis white men, right? It's probably changed enough that some people think that it might, there might be some queer folks in there too, right. But this, like, youthful anger movement, is what people know about. And I think that that's, well, that's what, you know, the media presents us as, and all of these things, but actually finding out that it's this like multi generational movement, and this like multi like, like literally multicultural movement, like different people coming from very different, like cultural ideas of how they want to live, and like how they express themselves, you know, within that is actually the kind of more beautiful part of it. I have nothing against the people....I have nothing against the black bloc, but it is like, only some tiny portion of what anarchists do. I don't know, I don't know why I'm going on that rant. Milstein 36:35 I mean, in a way, I think what like when people go, Oh, anarchists, you know, I wear black bloc and I wear a black mask constantly, every day now. Because, the whole time since the pandemics been going on, it's like how do we be collectively carrying is we wear masks, and which is what the point of the mask were in the first place, which is like a black bloc was a way to take care of each other in moments when the police and the state are trying to target you. And all sorts of social movements around the world have...mask their face to protect each other, in moments of danger from the structures that are trying to kill us and do kill us. So, I think that's what gets lost is like that it's just black bloc is one tactic, you know, wearing masks for variety of reasons in a pandemic, is the similar tactic. And the underlying again, that ethic below it is, you know, you just have to push a little bit, but with anarchism it's about we try generally a lot harder to try to balance like how can we have social relationships structured around taking care of each other when there's like perfect moments of profound abandonment. And so like a lot of people coming into anarchism right now, a lot of the younger folks that I've met lately, and that's why I think multi generational spaces are important is the caveat is like, it's not because Oh, the older you get, the more you know, it's like no, if we're in multi generational spaces, we all...in all sorts of different directions learn from each other. Because I don't know what it's like to be 12 right now. But if I hear a 12 year olds telling me their experience, I'll better understand the world and better understand how they understand, you know, it's like we need each other in these multi generational spaces. So, I would like...folks that have been coming into anarchists in the last couple of years, it's either, you know, been because of the George Floyd...in North American continent at least, the George Floyd uprising, or mutual aid projects and solidarity, you know, disaster relief projects that are kind of structured in anarchistic ways. And, and, yeah, so there's just a different...like what values do people come in at anarchism at different moments to understand and so, you know, I, I think if people at these moments are there in person versus on, you know, Twitter or social media, which sadly, more and more has become, you know, a default, which is another way, you know, sure people find anarchism, but I still don't really think that's anarchism, you know, it's like a flat version, because you'd have to practice it in ways, in embodied ways face to face makes a big difference. But oftentimes, when people are in their spaces, they realize, wow, there's lots of anarchists here, and they don't even like tell me, they're anarchists, but I can kind of, if you're, you kind of look around and start asking people, you know, get to know them or start asking then people go, Yeah, I kind of been doing this for a long time. But you know, I can't run as much now. So like, Yeah, I'm like, I cook food and I bring that or I'm, you know, a legal observer, or, you know, I'm what, you know, I, I can move fast, but I don't want to run right now. So I medic, or all of these different, all these different roles is like, oftentimes, I kind of like think of anarchism now too, is like, we're not huge in number oftentimes, but we're so damned dedicated to being this like infrastructure of self organized, you know, mutual aid and care and solidarity and life making that we're almost always like, there are all sorts of these pivotal moments to be like, Hey, we don't have to, you know, control or tell everybody how to do mutual aid, but if people have questions about kind of how to do it, you know, we can kind of like offer some advice, or we can show you how some like, you know, decentralized yet federated structures worked in the past. And often, if you look around there actually is sort of multi generational anarchism, but sadly, sadly, I think, especially in in the US context, you know, I really, really encourage you, you know, this is another caveat, is like anarchism is this profound, profound, difficult duty, and really think of it as a duty. And it's hard, really hard to stay an anarchist, to continually make the spaces you want, even if it's difficult, and it gets more and more difficult over time. So, you know, I really committed to making all sorts of different kinds of spaces where we experience what it feels like to be the people we want to be for in a in a space we want and that doesn't always end up looking pretty or great sometimes. But often, it's pretty magical. But part of that commitment is bringing together, you know, different genders, and different cultures, and different skin colors, and different bodies of all sorts, and different ages and being really committed as an anarchist, the older I get to not be like I've been there before, it's really boring. I don't want to go to that thing. I don't want to be around young people, blah, blah. Yeah, sure, you know, but I get so tired of "Oh, no, this thing again." Can we learn to at least make better mistakes? Casandra 41:43 Oh, God. I feel that. Milstein 41:45 Yeah, but I don't know. I'm also really committed to that like, creating and being in multi generational spaces. And when I'm in those spaces, myself, and others, encouraging us to all listen to each other, and all tell our stories, and all be curious ,and not think we know everything you know, and like that, to me is part of an anarchist practice. Maybe that's why I say 'aspiring always,' you know, is like, how do we create those spaces where...Yeah, where we see the anarchism isn't the stereotype. We...Yeah, I should go back to like Murray. I was like, when I first met him, he's like, so so well read, like he never went to barely...I mean, he was like, a radical, and he was like, a baby. He was like, never had a childhood. And so but, you know, we moved from, like, sort of Marxism and to anarchism. And then he was just super, super, super well read. And for the first year, he was like, just, you know, never asked for anything, just would like spend hours and hours teaching, engaging conversation. The first year I go, his ideas are just so big and so expansive, and brings into so much beautiful things from all sorts of different historical movements, and philosophies, and tendencies, and logics that you should think of that, you know, are dangerous, like fascism, and all these other things. But also, I know, there's things that don't sit with me, right, but I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could feel my brain like stretching these beautiful growth ways. But I couldn't figure out how to argue with him, like, argue in the sense of like, not angrily, but like wrestle with ideas with him. And even other things I don't think I agree with him points, but I don't know how to articulate it yet. And I was like, I have to just let my brain keep expanding and keep, you know, and he kept saying, "I want you to learn to think for yourself." That's why I'm like, expose, you know, all these ideas, all these different tendencies. And then at one point, I was like, hey, whoa, and then like, you know, and then you reach this point where we could have these, we became good friends, and I could wrestle together with him with things I agreed with or disagreed with, or, you know, or things we both didn't know the answer to, which is even more interesting. And, and how do you how do we create spaces as anarchists that allow for I feel like that was such a gift, you know, to allow for that, that growth and to allow for us to see that there's so many different ways of doing things in the world. And we have to give ourselves the patience, and the time, and the space with each other to do that. And otherwise, it's just going to remain....I mean, there's lots of reasons but you know, I don't want to anarchism just to be you know, 18 year olds who stay anarchists for two years, and then it's, you know, it has to be grounded and so on. Yeah. Yeah. You know, more reasons to stay an anarchist. Well, that I'm kind of all over the place there. Milstein 42:33 But that does tie well into the next question that I have, which is, the title of your book is "Try Anarchism for Life," seems to be addressing that sort of thing. Do you want to talk about your new book? Milstein 44:41 Um, yeah, I mean, I kind of came out as I used to hate hashtags. I used to hate social media. I still I still do. But anyway, I used to roast hash tags...because I really like how can we boil down our ideas to two words or three words in a hashtag? But anyway, I started using "Try Anarchism for Life" at one point, but I was like, Oh, how do I fill that out? Because I guess for me, it was kind of this playful hashtag, but then I really meant like, anarchism has to be something once you embrace it that you you want to act anarchitically for the whole of your life and I don't understand how you can't once you embrace it, because I don't understand. Although I've known plenty of people who have, you know, but how once you've eyes widened to see hierarchy, domination, you kind of go What, whoa, wait, I don't believe that anymore. I just don't understand that. But ,once you know, once, you're sort of like, in anarchism and anarchistic, how, how do you do that for the whole of your life, but in service of life? So, that is kind of like puns play on or like word plays, like, try and anarchism for the whole of your life and for the life of all the ancestors that came before you, and the life of those will come after you, but also in service of life. And that it's trying because we're never actually going to all have to keep experimenting. So yeah, so I whatever, I kept playing with it and writing little little things about it on my plate to do sort of picture posted on Instagram. And then I don't know last winter, especially this time period has been incredibly bleak and traumatizing and horrific, horrifying, depressing. And, I'm not making light of it, it's just been a hellish, hellish, a lot of hellish time periods in history, but there are some that are particularly, yeah, horrific. And this is one of them. Fascism. Ecocide. You know, collapse of all sorts of any kinds of supports systems. Yeah, it's a really horrific time. And so yeah, I don't know, last year, especially last winter, I was like, what if I wrote little prose that really kind of tried to figure out, to kind of answer the thought experiment what are some of the many beautiful dimensions of anarchism? And it came about to talk about this in a little prologue to the book, but it came up on me posting things on Instagram originally, I don't know when I started doing that with the scriptwriter because I'm for life. But I take a lot of pictures of graffiti and street art and write little stories about some. I have thousands I have not yet written stories about on my camera. But uh, but I started just thinking, why is it that we like, mostly, you see a lot of spray painted Circle A's, but they're kind of haphazard? And just what does it say? When someone just the random person looks at a circle, like they might not know what it is. Or they might think oh, those anarchists things, people that break windows or black bloc, you know, like, it's this, we're not, again, doing justice to the beauty of the beauty of activism with Circle A's even though I love to see Circle A's everywhere. So then I, on Instagram was like, hey, who could? Who? What artists, friends of mine can draw Circle A's that, like, embody within the drawing the values and the beauty they find in anarchism. And yeah, I was so struck by how hard it was for so many folks would kept sharing things with me. And a lot of them were just things being set on fire, which is great, you know, police cars, fine, you know, but, you know, hey, we can maybe use those cars and buildings later, maybe, you know, the point is to tear down that world. Who cares? You know, what would we put in the place of others. And so, but then people started drawing them. And I started going, Okay, I'll do a little book of these things, just for fun. And so this book is 24 or 26 of these little stories. They're all very short and compact. They're kind of playful, poetic, lots of sort of puns, there's, they're kind of poignant in places, but they're very compact. I was like how can I say a lot in a small space. So I hope you look, there's a lot of little things in there that if whether you already know about anarchism, or you don't that kind of gesturing toward a bunch of wider things, but I love that forum, and I used 26 of the different drawings that people started creating all over the place. And since then, a lot of artists have been creating a lot more. So, it feels really exciting to see a lot more beautiful Circle A's out in the world. And yeah, I want to inspire people to, you know, I really think part of, you know, we as anarchists were like, Oh, this is this cool club, and we know how great it is, well, you know, we're just going to do Circle A's, you know, scrawl Circle A's, but we're not going to..... I don't know, I've been accused of being a friendly, welcoming anarchist. And I think that's a good thing. So, this book is, is also like, I also want people to act more anarchistically, and I don't want it for I want it because seriously this world, if we don't do that we are it really is a choice between anarchism, fascism or ecocide. And so I hope this book contributes in a small way to encourage all of you who read it or even think about any of the circle's in it, to think about how you can portray the beauty of anarchism more and more through your life, through your practices, through modeling it, through the projects, you do, the art you do, so that other people can find it and embrace it, because sometimes it's really damn hard to find anarchism and it shouldn't be, or to find that beauty and it shouldn't be, you know, and in this moment, we need it and I don't know I was really struck last winter, which was, you know, absurdly bleek, I started writing these prose and was, you know, like, feeling so crappy before I was doing it. And then the more I just was like, I'm just gonna get obsessed in writing these, that's all I'm going to do right now, because the world's going to hell, just I could focus on this for the next couple months. And I was like, it was like, this good medicine from my brain. Like, the more I just was, like, just focus on what's beautiful in anarchism, and try to write about some little practices, and not pie in the sky. Some of them are playful and fanciful, but most of them are things we really do. Also, the more I did it more as like, whoa, wow, I start my brain started remembering that it's not just all fascism and ecocide, and tragedy and depression, despair or death. I like remembered that, that tension that, you know, there is always trauma and joy, there is sorrow and joy there is we're never wholly in collapse or, you know, we're never wholly in disaster. We have. Yeah, so I don't know, I think, even on that level, for us to really stretch our brains to think about and practice that beauty, you know, I don't know, I've, I've done different, like, hospice care and other forms of care around death and grief. And, you know, people think, Oh, this is hard to deal with death. And I don't know something about like, being really open to these moments, when people are experiencing most sort of profound transitions in life, you know, going from this life to whatever after you believe happens. It's a pretty profound, intimate moment that only happens once in your life for each of us. And to accompany someone through that....Wow. It's, I think the sort of, you know, if we're able to do those things well, to take care of each other well, to really intimate moments of grief and or dying, and death is, is we find out all the people that are like, "Oh my god, I should have been living my life, I should have been telling people I love them, I should have been telling people I don't love them," you know, like people become genuine and like actually, strive, oftentimes people become, not everybody, but a lot of people like it calls into question your mortality an you try to be suddenly like recommit to life, which a lot of people I've heard, say, during the pandemic, too, this is just telling me what's important in life, you know, we show the world is in hospice right now, you know, and we don't know if there's going to be a future in the next 10 years, or what humans if humans as a species will survive this time period. And, but we do know, we can treat each other as good as possible and alleviate as much suffering as we can, and make every moment until that last moment, as beautiful as it can be, which is what hospice is, in the best of scenario's goal is, is to alleviate unnecessary suffering, and to accentuate as much beauty and collected care as you can. And so I don't know, I'm not it, I hope this book says, please, you know, all of us can't give up. Too many of us have lost friends to them killing themselves or taking too many substances intentionally or unintentionally, or depression, or, you know, all sorts of other reasons. And, you know, that's, that's there, that's real, right? And I want more of us to be here, you know, and so how can we be there to help alleviate as much suffering as we can and accentuate forms of collective care, even if we only think we have another six months or 10 years, or whatever it is we have, and not give up? Don't give up? Because that's, we might, you know, I don't know, to me as an anarchist, that's always like, I don't know how they always stay an anarchist. Because, you know, that's like a question we could talk about. But part of it is just this belief is like, I don't know what else I'm like, This is what I want to my last breath is to try really hard to be encircled by solidarity and care and love. And, you know, in ways that we do it non hierarchically, you know, in ways that we do together. That's all one sort of can ask for, but one also can try to do. Long winded version of, "Why you're doing this," but the last thing I want to say or not, the last thing cause I can say many things, cause I'm so grateful to all the 26 people who do this incredible beautiful Circle A's and the many other people sent me one that I didn't include because I was like, I can only write so many pieces. And, but, and they've all been really generous with the Circle A's and they're all in the same thought about if people use them for all sorts of things. And again, anarchists we're like cool, take it and turn it into a t shirt, or stencil, or spray paint it, or make a poster. And same with my words. I really love that we give those things to each other. But, I also really want to thank you two, and your whole collective of Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You've also just really embodied like anarchistic values and how like we collaborate, and you treated me and the whole process. It's been like, you know, learning together, experimenting together. It's been like a really beautiful experience. So, for me books aren't this like thing, this commodity which unfortunately we have to charge for because capitalism, you know, someday and hopefully we won't have to that's the irony, you know? Like, you know, not irony, just the sorrow, right? You know, we can't do the things we love as anarchists completely in ways we would want to. But we can do them as much as we can in the ways we want to. And so everything about this book, for me books are I do them as labors of love. The funds are going back to you all to support your publishing project. But I, I for me, it's the process of them that's anarchistic, like how do we? How do we think through doing them? Why are we doing them? Who are we doing them with? And for? And how do we treat each other while we're doing them? And once it's out in the world, how do others use it? And how do we engage with it? Right? I put books out in the world not to be a commodity and sit on someone's shelf or whatever. I do it because I want people to, to think and engage and transform the world. So, it's part of my way of inspiring and intervening in that, trying to push proof prefigurative politics, which is always my underlying agenda. Come on, we can do this. Margaret 55:55 Well, I like it that you picked 26, because in my mind, it's an alphabet book. It's just you know, a, a, a, a, a, a,a ,a..... Casandra 56:05 There's an alef in there. Milstein 56:07 Oh, I never even thought of that. There's an alef, an alef is the first letter in many different Jewish alphabets and probably other alphabets, too. And so there's a Circle Alef in there. So you have to get the book and read the story. Casandra 56:24 Yeah. And my my plug for it is that I think it was a perfect first book for our collective to tack and I'm just so grateful that you came to us and that this all worked out. And but what...is it really...today's release day? I just realized we're recording this on release day. Is that true? That's true. Margaret 56:42 And people might not be listening for a couple months? We don't know yet. Casandra 56:46 Yeah. But now they know, we're recording this on November 15th. I really appreciate that it's like an intro to anarchism in practice. I think that theory can be really intimidating for people. But, I just find your work immensely approachable. And, I think that's something that'll be really beneficial to people. Milstein 57:11 Yeah, I hope so. I also hope, I feel like I've sent it out to a lot of different folks to read it, like, well, some who are longtime anarchists, and I don't know, I also they're like, Oh, I also really hope that it lends like, you know, love and solidarity. People have been anarchists for a long time. Or it just reminds them why they're anarchists or think through different things, you know? Yeah, it's, I hope it's accessible for folks that don't know about anarchism, which I think it is, and also just like a gift to people who already are, because we also have to keep each other anarchists for life. Because, you can't do that alone. You have to keep reminding each other. Yeah, yeah. We're not just you know, So well, but anyway, you know, I'm really, really grateful to Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness collective.. So if folks listening to this have not checked out their website, and their growing list of projects,they don't just do books, they do all sorts of wacky things. Casandra 58:00 Like podcasts, like this podcast. Fancy that. Milstein 58:06 Baked goods, I don't know. Oh, one stop shop. Margaret 58:13 Well, is there is there any last word on on "What is anarchism?" or anything like that, that anyone wants to touch on? Casandra 58:23 I mean, I feel like we could talk about it forever. But I also feel good about what we've talked about today. Margaret 58:29 Yeah, fair enough. Milstein 58:31 Yeah, yeah. How about you, Margaret, what do you think anything else you want to? Margaret 58:35 I'm willing to give it a shot, I'll try some anarchism. Casandra 58:40 Will you try it for life? Margaret 58:42 So far, so good. I've been an anarchist more than half my life. And nothing's really shaken that, which is funny, because I go through these intentional kind of crises of faith with anarchism every now and then, where I'm like, Wait, really, and I kind of try and like break down the whole thing and like, come to a new conclusion. And the conclusion I keep coming to, I do this every couple of years, usually, because someone in the anarchist scene annoys me so much that I'm like, how am I in the same movement as that person? And then I like go through and I'm like, oh, because I hate the state and capitalism, and like, white supremacy, and you know, all that stuff. And so then I like, come back to it again. But, so yeah, I'm willing, at this point. I'm pretty sure I'm willing to try it for life. I mean, who knows? I'm not, you know, maybe... Casandra 59:27 That's very anarchistic of you to interrogate your anarchism. Margaret 59:31 Thank thanks. Milstein 59:32 Yeah. Which, we actually feel like we need to. I feel like that's a profound anarchist value, like, I don't know, I feel like one reason I've stayed an anarchists for a long time is often because of that, like one of those personal...I really felt them or like going through sort of like I hate all anarchists, but I'm still an anarchist. I don't like...okay. I have to figure out how to keep going in those moments. And...but I don't know like, I think that's the real value of some of the my favorite like projects and collectives, like, oh, we have to, every six months, stop and actually reevaluate if this project makes sense anymore if we, you know, and then end it well, when it doesn't, that was some of my favorite things. Yeah, like, continually reevaluate and reassess. But yeah, I don't know, how do you stay? I'd love to hear how do you think you stay a anarchists for life? Like, as long as you have so far, because I think that's really, it is a challenge when society, everything in the world...it's like right now wearing an N95 or KN95 mask, which I hope most people are doing, or everyone is doing, you know, you walk into spaces, and you can literally be the only one for days on end in public places. And you know, it's a good exercise in building up one's.... Yeah. How do you do things when the whole of society reflects back to you that you shouldn't be doing that? And you're like, "No, I know. This is right. I know this is the ethical thing to do. I know it's the kind of practice I want." Margaret 1:00:57 Go ahead, Casandra. Casandra 1:00:59 I was just ascentinthat is difficult. I was thinking about my child, actually, my kid who's eight and the only one wearing a mask. Which is not related to anarchism, but it's hard to be different. Milstein 1:01:12 Yeah. How do we do...but how? Yeah, so how does, as anarchist, does one you know, to sign up sort of anarchists for life is to sign up for a lot of like, grief and a lot of not seeing the world reflected that you want to see, and knowing that there's a far better world, you know, that dissonance...I always been like, you know, I get depressed a lot. And then I'm like, Why do I get depressed? It's because of that gap between the world that I want to see and the world that I live in. I know where that depression got strong. It's not a mystery, you know? So. Yeah. So, how do you...I was just curious, like, either you how you stay the older and older you get this? How do you stay an anarchist? Casandra 1:01:45 Community, I think. Not being anarcho individualists. Margaret 1:01:51 I, it's funny, because some of my answer is like, kind of, like, I'm used to being the weird one in the room, like, you know, like, like, if I walk into a grocery store, the weird thing about me isn't that I'm wearing a mask. The weird thing about me is that I'm a trans girl, and I exist, you know, and so I'm like, the mask is like, Yeah, whatever. And then, like, in some ways, the anarchism or like, you know, the way that that's like, sort of visually expressed for me, because I still sort of well I dress sub culturally, but that really kind of predates my anarchism, actually, I was just always a goth kid. But like, I'm sort of used to being the weird one in the room. And I'm kind of used to having the ideas that are like, a little bit more out there. But, honestly, in a lot of ways, I actually feel easier and more comfortable about being an anarchist now than I did when I was younger. One, because it's, it's reflexive for me, right? Like, it's, you know, people always say, you're gonna get, you know, you're gonna calm down as you get older. Right? And in some ways, I have calmed down. But, but I've settled into the, the ideological positions that I hold, and they feel more and more concrete to me, like, the idea that capitalism could possibly make sense or that authoritarianism could possibly make sense just completely disagree with everything that I learn and everything that I experience. So, I don't know. And then also, there's just, frankly, more of us than there were 10 years ago. And, the thing that I have more interest in and excitement about is the breaking out of it from subculture. I say this as someone who's sub culturally, I'm involved in music subcultures, and I'm also sort of sub culturally anarchist in terms of that has been like my primary, like friend groups and things like that over the past, like maybe 20 years. But, more and more anarchism is a more mainstream position. And t
Episode Summary Brooke and Casandra talk with Why We Fight author, Shane Burley about conspiracy theories, false consciousness amongst the right, and how mythos get built to influence how people think. Guest Info Shane Burley can be found on Twitter @Shane_Burley1, on Instagram @ShaneBurley, on Mastodon @Shane_Burley, and on Patreon at www.patreon.com/ShaneBurley Host Info Casandra can be found on Twitter @hey_casandra or Instagram @House.Of.Hands. Brooke can be found at Strangers helping up keep our finances intact and on Twitter @ogemakweBrooke Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Next Episode This Year in the Apocalypse on 12/30/22 and every two weeks there after. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Shane Burley on Conspiracy Theor Brooke 00:18 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcasts for what feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, one of your hosts today, along with Casandra. Today we have the honor of talking with the author, researcher, and journalist Shane Burley. We're going to discuss conspiracy theories or whatever rabbit holes that topic takes us into. But first we'd like to celebrate being a member of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts by playing a little jingle for one of the other podcasts on the network. Here it goes. Brooke 01:29 And we're back. Shane, thanks for joining us today to talk about conspiracy theories. Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, including sharing your pronouns? Shane Burley 01:36 Sure. Thanks so much for having me on. My name is Shane Burley, my pronouns are he/him or they/them. I research the far right amongst other things. I've written a few books on it, Why We Fight from back in 2021 and Fascism Today from 2017. And most recently edited this big anti fascism anthology called an No Pasaran: Anti Fascist Dispatches From a World in Crisis. And right now I am working on a book with my co-author Ben Lorber for Melville House books, on anti semitism. Brooke 02:06 Nice, thank you. Yeah, the one you wrote back in 2017 - Casandra has a copy of that book. And when I realized that my beliefs align with anarchism, I was like, I should learn about what this is. And, you know, learn more about fascism, too. And I was like, Casandra, do you have a good, like, primer book on this for me? And she just went to the bookshelf and pulled that one out. It was yours! Handed it over. Shane Burley 02:33 Oh, awesome. That's what I was hoping for, when we wrote it because there wasn't a lot that was good and straightforward at the time, at least from our side. Casandra Johns 02:40 Spreading the good news about anti-fascism. Brooke 02:46 That was, it was a good piece for, for getting started and learning there. So thank you for writing that. And for your continued work. Shane Burley 02:53 Yeah, thanks so much for saying that, it's really kind. Brooke 02:56 So we wanted to talk today about conspiracy theories, and I'm just gonna start with a real basic question just to make sure we're all kind of on the same page as we're having this conversation, of what is a conspiracy theory? Shane Burley 03:08 And conspiracy theory is a theory about a conspiracy that is not true. More appropriately, it's one that could not be true. So I think it's distinguishing from actual conspiracies because there are conspiracies in the world. So, you know, a good comparison about this would be the killing of JFK. There's conspiracy theories that range from three people did it to 10,000 people did it. But no matter what one person had to engage in some kind of collaboration, so some kind of conspiracy is possible, which is separate from conspiracy theory. So I think we separate it from like the various kind of quote unquote "conspiracies" that lots of organizations and governments engage in just in day to day work, versus ones that basically come up against the basic laws of physics and how we understand the world to work, and specifically divert our understanding of how complex issues work by sort-of putting an element of fantasy into them. Brooke 04:03 So that kind of answers one of the questions that I've been pondering, maybe we can talk about it more? Casandra has been wondering about, you know, why conspiracy theories have become so mainstream. And my sort of corollary thought was, it seems like they're so appealing to people, you know? Those two things are kind of tied together - the mainstreaming and the fact that they seem to really appeal to people for some reason. Casandra Johns 04:28 Not even just mainstream, as in the rest of society mainstream, but mainstream on the Left. Shane Burley 04:37 I was interviewing a friend, Brendan O'Connor, who wrote a book, Blood Red Lines, about anti-immigrant kind of nativism and border politics. And he made a comment that I thought a lot about which was that he's kind of unsure about where the line between conspiracy theories and quote unquote, "false consciousness" lies. What's the difference between conspiracy theory, and what's the differencce between misunderstanding sources of oppression and how systems work, which is a common thing? Shane Burley 05:06 I think one of the realities about a conspiracy theory is that it is an attempt to liberate oneself; it is actually an attempt to do that. It's an attempt to explain people in power and explain your own disempowerment. And so in situations in which lots of instability or feelings of loss of status - whatever they are, real and imagined - when those things start to sort of percolate, conspiracy theories are the easier answer. They don't require a ton of political education they don't depend on a lot of shared reality, even. And our society depends really heavily both on false consciousness and conspiracy theories. Depending on how you put those lines. Shane Burley 05:48 Take the entire Republican Party: [it] has built a mythos on working class people, specifically, not elites, right? That's the language used. And their policy is entirely based around basically inculcating the rich and the people who own capital. So how do you explain both of those things? It has to be institutionalized false consciousness, which in itself engages a certain amount of conspiracy theories. How can you understand empowering the rich and empowering the working class at the same time? Those things don't comiserate. Except millions and of millions of people assume that they can. And so I think there's an institutionalization of that kind of thinking. Conspirarcy theories, the wild ones, actually aren't that far afield from that, you know? Because if you think about the way that things - just basic [things], like taxes and social services - versus the kind of benefits of the rich, it seems pretty obvious that when those who own capital are enriched that that money comes from us. I mean, it doesn't require a master's thesis to explain that. So you have to get millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people to basically avoid thinking about that, or to believe it's untrue. And so that, I think, is foundational to the way that we think about conspiracy theories because we all - not all of us, hopefully - but huge portions of us engage in some level of conspiracy thinking, Casandra Johns 07:03 You can tell me if you think this is accurate: it seems like conspiracy theories often try to blame individuals, rather than looking at systems for instance, it sort of frustrates me when people are like, you know, eat the rich. Which yeah, eat the rich. But like, "If Jeff Bezos would just, you know, redistribute his wealth, everything would be fine." But it wouldn't be because capitalism would still exist, and there would just be someone else super rich. You know what I mean? Shane Burley 07:32 Yeah, I think the kind of classic line on this is that conspiracy theories - and particularly anti semitic conspiracy theories, just as like the archetype for it - are one of the most effective defenders of capital because what it does is divert your attention away from a system and places it on supposedly corrupt individuals. And there's a couple of reasons I think this is really attractive to people. I think one is that it actually plays on bigotries really well, and validates them in a certain sense. So there's certain stories that people tell right? So one is that they're aggrieved and legitimately so. I would say that most members of the working class are having a problem, right? They're being exploited at work. They're not being paid, obviously, what they're worth; paying bills is hard. It's miserable. It's very upsetting, the things that we go through, even people who are reasonably affluent but not ruling class, it's actually quite difficult. And so that's a legitimate grievance. And I think that grievance has a lot of anger built up with it. And that anger inside people's bodies and minds is often indistinguishable from bigotry. I think it's actually those things intermix a lot. So it's the impulse that if someone is actually legitimately your oppresser in a dynamic, you know, your boss, there's an impulse to actually want to say something bigger to them. Shane Burley 08:45 There's a lot of research about people being pushed, and saying things and doing things they never thought they would in the direction of bigotry, simply as a way of harming those they think are harming them. And so what a lot of these conspiracy theories do - and populists conspiracy theories in general - is allow you to sort of indulge in that a bit. So it's not uncommon to focus on the effeminacy of the ruling class. So you'll see this a lot: "Jeff Bezos, look at his soft hands. He can never do the hard work like us." There's a certain kind of 'let's make them look effeminate. Let's make them look queer, code them as queer.' Casandra Johns 09:18 Also, the lizard thing, like talking about how they look like lizards Shane Burley 09:24 Very much about their appearance. I mean, if you look at... early 20th century socialist literature, the inordinate focus on making the capitalist class look fat, just absolutely rotund, as if they're consuming things that, you know, they're eating so much that you can't eat. You become small and they become big. So I think that allows, it gives us a twofer, right? That says, okay, yeah, they're the capitalist class, they're oppressing in that way. And also that discomfort you feel of fat people, those are now one and the same, and one actually mobilizes the other, like one becomes a weapon for the other. So I think that's an easy way to focus on that personalization. Shane Burley 10:01 And the other thing is, if getting rid of Jeff Bezos doesn't solve the problem, what the fuck would solve the problem? That's really scary. I think this idea that there are certainly targets in terms of the kind of super rich and stuff. But it's not, that's not enough. Like, what does it mean to go after a system of capital? What does that even mean? I think that's a really confusing prospect. And it's one that is really emotionally unsatisfying, when it gets right down to it. Casandra Johns 10:30 Yeah, cuz we haven't. We haven't imagined alternatives. Or, you know, the average person hasn't imagined alternatives to that. Shane Burley 10:37 Or how will you even get there? Like, what's the pathway to alternative? I think the idea of getting rid of Jeff Bezos, whether or not it's realistic, at least you kind of understand the physicality of what that would be. But what does it mean to communize the entire economy? I mean, what does it mean to actually look at your life and say, "How can I fix these really deeply laid traumas and undo them, and replace it?" That is just such a mammoth task that it's, I think, it's hard to build up a consciousness that's really easy, has a quick fix mentality that's easy to communicate to another person. It's a lot easier to say, you know - I've worked for unions, I've been a union organizer - to say like, "It's that boss, look what he's doing, look at what the car is driving, he couldn't do your job." Those things are easy. And they are true in most of those cases, but they're not the end of the story. And so I think we end up with that really foreshortened perspective because the other stuff is just so big. Casandra Johns 11:32 Yeah. And I wonder if... when we explore the big stuff we also have to look at the ways that we participated, which is difficult. Yeah. Shane Burley 11:42 Yeah. I mean... capital's really complicated now. And the way we, our lives, are intertwined in it is really difficult. Huge portions of the economy are made up of people that would have previously been considered petty bourgeois: freelancers, contract workers, you know. Is an Uber driver a business owner? I mean, there's these things that don't really make sense in the traditional kind of Marxist sense, are the ways we talk about activism and capitalism and wealth. And so it ends up being really complicated. And then when you add the dimensions of being, you know, white folks or in the Global North, that's sort of hyper exploited, under other countries, it's like, well, how does that relationship work? You know, does it? Do I see, am I doing that? Do I benefit from it? What does it mean to benefit from it? You know, I think that actually adds those layers of complexity to it. I think that's why this is the new story. I mean, that's why conspiracy theories are the story that we tell - it's a really important story. And like you said, it's not just the Right, it's the Left, too. Brooke 12:44 So why do you think that they have become so much more mainstream? Because they've always had that quality of being simpler explanation or an easy thing to point to, but now we're seeing them becoming more common. And as Casandra said, you know, more common on the Left as well. Like, what's the rise about? Why is that happening? Shane Burley 13:07 I think that it comes partially from the destabilization of kind of Western economies. The the center has collapsed out, so you're not having as much as moderate politics in general. The radical version of right wing politics is conspiratorial, it's necessarily conspiratorial, so the more radical it gets, the more conspiratorial it's gonna get. That's really, really important for how it builds up sort of an enthusiastic base of supporters, is built on conspiracy theories. Shane Burley 13:36 Again, the Left and the Right will build their energy on similar impulses, right? The impulse to liberate oneself. Well, if we're talking about, quote, unquote, "white working class" - which is a kind of an artificial category - but if we're going to talk about that in the kind of MAGA/Trump sense, they are people, like all people, who have diminishing 401ks and have, you know, rent they can't afford and stuff. Even though they're not disproportionately poor or anything, it's a general feeling of decline, right? So there is decline generally happening. And so that radicalization is going to be in the direction of conspiracy theories because if you were straightforward about right wing politics, no working class person would ever accept such a thing. I say, "So you're going to keep taxing me and then and then give tax breaks to rich people?" Which makes no sense when you think about it. "You're going to bust my union, I won't have as good of a pension?" You have to have conspiracy theories, and bigotries underlying that. So those simply just radicalized more. And they give a narrative, a mythology, to the real emotional turmoil people are living with. Stop the Steal makes a lot of sense if you feel like everyone's stealing everything from you. Like, you're always being stolen from, of course they can steal this election; "This election told me they were gonna fix problems and they stole it from me, just like they stole my pension, just like they stole my home in foreclosure." So I think those things are transpiring. Shane Burley 14:50 I think on the Left there is an increase in conspiracy theories because of the decline in political education and us talking things out. There's not a really good sense about systems. And there's also just a rapidly increasing sort of social network of sharing information that shortens it a lot. So instead of sort of talking about complex issues, it's a lot easier to package them in bite-sized bits. And those things become a lot more viral. Shane Burley 15:13 People also really enjoy thinking that they are participating in secret knowledge of some kind. Like they've been smart. They're ahead of the curve, they're ahead of the official information. I mean, Google search, you know, "Epstein didn't kill himself," and see all the people that have decided that they know something that the rest - everyone else - doesn't know... There's an effort to step past uncertainty, and confusion and complexity, and just kind of claim knowledge. And so that's, I think, an important part of how those discourses happen, and then they just happen so rapidly. Now, they just they progress so quickly. Casandra Johns 15:46 Yeah. I know deep down that conspiracy theories on the Right are ultimately more dangerous. But I get so much more frustrated when I see it on the Left because I feel like we should know better. You know, I was thinking about the, like, to the Right, Jews are dirty communists, and to the Left Jews are dirty capitalists. And one makes me more angry than the other. Shane Burley 16:14 It's interesting because we associate the Jew as the communist with the Right, and actually the Right use the "Jew as the capitalist" more. So for example, the second generation Klan would focus on Jewish capitalists. Part of it is that most likely a lot of the people in the Klan base hadn't met Jewish communists, and people in other countries might have met Jewish communists, you know? But this is one of the things I think is interesting is that there is just a rhetorical crossover that happens here, and actually, when you see - and this does happen, it's not it's not nearly the level that the Right or liberals want to make it sound - but there is moments of crossover when people from the Left take on really far-right ideas or can move to the far right, it has happened. And anti-semitic conspiracy theories is one of the primary ways that happens. Shane Burley 17:04 This sort of anti capitalism - I use the term fetishized anti capitalism, but you know, basically any enemies of capitalism are therefore my friends. And so even these kind of radical traditionalist forms of anti capitalism - these ultra conservative, nationalistic or fascistic forms anti capitalism - sort of start to feel like, well, they're opposed to the same systems, they must be the same thing. And that happens with with anti semitism. And I think we allow for this in all kinds of ways on the Left. Shane Burley 17:32 I mean, the amount of times I've been at international solidarity rallies where really despotic regimes are being - kind of like with signs and flags - simply because they're enemies of our enemy, either the US or the West, or Israel or something, or far right groups, are propped up because they supposedly are against the banksters... Their theory about it involves all kinds of like Rothschild conspiracy theories, and you know, they want a certain kind of Christian nationalism. So we overlook those really commonly when they are our enemies, or when they are ourselves. People are very soft on each other's conspiracy theories. Shane Burley 18:11 I mean, how many 911 Truth folks have you known in your life, you know? And those are fundamentally anti-semitic conspiracy theories, they depend on them. That's how they function. And this is true in the environmental movement. This is true, obviously, in feminist circles. It has different targets, different constituencies, but it's what we see with the kind of growth of turf-ism and that, these use of conspiracy theories to explain. So it's something that we're not prepared to sort of deal with. And we don't, I think, always communicate why it's a problem. I don't think there's a general consensus on the Left that it really is a problem. Shane Burley 18:51 I'll go back to the Epstein thing, you know, the Epstein case. It's really suspicious. People should probably look at that, but I don't know what happened. And I have no reason to believe it was conspiracy. I just don't, and the assumption by everyone jumping immediately into it sort of communicates to me that people feel totally fine, and engage in conspiracy theories when they have gaps of information, and everyone's pretty gentle on this. And that's not the most serious conspiracy theory. I'm not gonna put my stake in the wall in that. But I think we need to start talking to each other about that. Shane Burley 19:19 The other thing about this is that it's a losing strategy. You know, this, it's one of the worst ways of liberating yourself is to do it in accordance with a conspiracy theory because you will necessarily lose. We will always necessarily lose. There is no conspiracy theory that has ever led someone to an effective social movement to change anything. Casandra Johns 19:39 Ugh. Yeah. That's all I have to say. Amen. Brooke 19:49 Yeah, so you guys started getting into the the ties between conspiracy theories and anti-semitism. And there was a whole bunch that went on in that conversation that was just over my head here, that I did not pick up on. Casandra Johns 20:02 You can ask for clarifying statements. Brooke 20:08 I know, but you're on a roll, I don't want to interrupt. Casandra Johns 20:12 We try to make this digestible to someone who's not familiar with the topic. So you know. Brooke 20:22 But I am definitely curious to talk more about the ties between conspiracy theories and anti-semitism. I brought that up the other day and Casandra made the point of, I think you said something like, "All conspiracy theories eventually lead back to anti semitism" or something like that? If I'm totally misquoting you, please correct me. It is not a thing I've ever heard before. And I wanted to dive into that statement that you made and understand it. So I want to talk more about the links between conspiracy theories and anti semitism. Shane Burley 21:00 Anti-semitism has always held a conspiratorial element - a conspiratorial core even - before it engaged in what we would know as conspiracy theories today. So anti semitism, historic anti Judaism in Christianity - and when we say anti semitism, we're specifically talking about the type that was formed in Christianity, we're not talking about broad xenophobia against Jews. So for example, in the classical Muslim world, Jews were far from equal in Muslim dominated countries, but they [Muslims] didn't engage in the kind of like vicious, conspiratorial, genocidal anti semitism that you see in Europe. That's very much a European-Christian invention. But what they essentially did was, in the development of their theological differentiation they had to build on earlier libels around Jews as a sort of conspiratorial cabal of people that engage in really nefarious practices for misanthropic or even demonic reasons. And part of this has to do with the Jews' resistance to assimilation. Jews of 3000 years ago are not the same as Jews today, but there is a certain amount of, like, "We don't change according to societies that we're enbetted in or engaged with." There's a certain amount, for example, with Holika Jewish law things do have a certain continuity to them. And that's sort of threatening to people who want to remake entire populations of people. It's kind of inherently anti assimilationist. And it's very easy then to paint them as an outsider, ones who aren't playing by our rules and not part of our society. Christianity, in an effort to differentiate itself as a breakaway religion from the Jews, and focus really heavily on Jews sort of failing to understand the real spiritual message of their own scriptures, failing to live up to the promise that their religion. Like, "Christians are the new Israel" right? Then eventually develop that into open hostility, and then the suspicion that Jews are engaged in something really nefarious. Shane Burley 23:00 So the blood libel is an example of this: the idea that Jews are secretly kidnapping and killing Christian children to use their blood in different rituals. "Host desecration" is one; after the Catholic church decided that the the wafer - the host - is literally the body of Christ, they then started accusing Jews of stealing that host and stabbing it because they're so cruel. They have, you know, accused them of having pacts with the devil, engaging in all kinds of horrific things. And then at the same time: Jews, they weren't disproportionately moneylenders, but a number of Jews were involved in money lending because of their prohibitions in other industries. And then, of course, Christians used that as a propaganda tool, and basically kind of trumped up the charge. And so that populist anger was starting to intermix with the stories about Jews, and you get incredibly violent hostility. Shane Burley 23:46 I was talking with my co-author, Ben: I don't think at this point in history it's good to luxuriate in all the terrible stories of things that happened to Jews, I think that's almost, like, pornographic in a sense. But if you read pogroms that are kind of a mix of this theological anti Judaism and the reaction to the monarch, basically, they're targeting the Jews, instead of targeting the people who actually hold power. There's this kind of guttural rage, and the kind of cruelty that they're engaged in is totally off the map, it has no productive function other than just as much kind of creative violence as possible. And that's kind of a very particular impulse. And this is one, I think, is the flip side of the impulse to liberate yourself: to engage in oppression of others has some of that element to it. And it's very ephemeral. It's very kind of gut driven. Shane Burley 24:37 But those stories about Jews went through a lot of versions. A lot of ideas about Jews - Jews as moneylenders, Jews as people who steal from Christians, inherently dishonest people - those were secularized into what became known as anti semitism, opposition to Semitism. It was a kind of pseudo scientific idea that Jews had a particular ideology almost in their genes, and they were affecting society in particular ways. So the movement against them, the movement against semetic influence, was sort of productive movement to stop them from kind of degenerating society. The idea of how they're influencing society is that they're engaged in these cabals, either banking cabals, cabals involved in the media, you know, they're changing public perception, they're involved in legal professions, obviously, again, money lending, all forms of like banking and finance, in particular, all these kind of new industries and early capitalist environment. And so these are what we know as the most popular conspiracy theories - about secret societies, about Rothschild bankers, things like that - emerge out of that period. And that's the beginning of what we know today as a conspiracy theory. Shane Burley 25:39 A really coherent secular conspiracy theory, you know, it might have some religious overtones, certainly, but it doesn't argue itself necessarily in purely religious terms. All conspiracies that come later basically have the same format that was developed around this. They all have the same basic structure. And most conspiracy theories have lineages that you can trace back - one came from another one which came from an earlier one, and so on and so forth. They always come back to Jews. And most conspiracy theorists today hold that same anti semitic structure. So Q-Anon is a really great example of this. You know, Q-Anon rarely, quote unquote, "names the Jew." Names the Jew is something that open white nationalists do, right? They'll say, "Okay, this is typically the Jews." But instead, what Q-Anon does, is they'll use the figures of the cabal, they'll take all the structures of this earlier anti semitic conspiracy theory, they'll use verifiably Jewish names, or stereotypes associated with Jews, they'll take older pieces of those conspiracy theories, theologic pieces, and secularize them. So for example, they believe that a cabal of satanic Democrats with curious R last names are taking children and sacrificing their adrenal glands to extract this substance that they use then in rituals to intoxicate themselves. Right? It's familiar, uses a lot of sciency sounding words - Adrenochrome, which is not a real thing - but it sounds like... Casandra Johns 27:01 They were making the forbidden matzah or whatever, right? Shane Burley 27:04 Exactly. What they're doing is basically capturing Christian children and using them for their evil Hebraic rituals. But again, they don't always say - some of them do, increasingly, they do say Jews, but it takes just a tiny scratch on this. 911 Truth is a really good example, you know, where cabals of bankers - or you know, Israel, whatever it is, that's verifiably not involved - are accused of being involved. And the pattern for how this works has an earlier anti semitic conspiracy theory to it. So these are generally how those kinds of work. Casandra Johns 27:06 Can you can you really quickly explain what you mean by "ur" something? Shane Burley 28:40 Ur would mean the kind of universal base form. So the most origin point. So it's saying that ur conspiracy theory maybe means like the first conspiracy theory, or the kind of conspiracy theory that established the format for it, so you can look back and say, okay, it started here. What's the thing that these all hold in common? Then I think you'll see that in the blood libel is that they all hold those basic structural points in common layer. Shane Burley 28:48 In my book I interviewed David Newark, who wrote Alt America and other books about the far right and conspiracy theories. And he, you know, says that basically, the blood libel is the "ur" conspiracy theory. It's like the basic source of all conspiracy theories because the idea that small cabal of people are engaged in this really nefarious work of extracting goodness and turning it into something evil. So anytime you have a conspiracy theory, it's going to have this DNA. Is there any conspiracy theory that engages in a way that's not anti semitic? I think part of the problem is that we live in a globalized world. So other cultures have had conspiracy thinking in them, but the West has really exported anti semitism as a subtle cultural code. Shane Burley 28:48 So I mentioned earlier Muslim anti-semitism, obviously, there is anti semitism in Muslim-majority countries and some Muslim communities, but when you look at it, it actually looks much more like exported Christian anti semitism with some Islamic kind of branding, or like some opportunistic use of Muslim sources. It very much looks like a Western export. And I think that's what we're seeing now globally on conspiracy theories is that even if there was versions of these - and other cultures had conspiracy theories against diasporic people, you know, there's conspiracy theories about Chinese immigrants in Malaysia and there's conspiracy theories about Koreans in Japan, there are those - nowadays, the exporting and universalization of the anti semitic conspiracy theorists, the"ur" conspiracy theory, has affected all peoples sense of how they build those. So you're gonna find spray paint in Japan, that says, "The Jews did 911" in a place where those people likely had never met a Jew, and maybe no one in their ancestry line has ever met a Jew, right? So this isn't about Jews. So in that way, we globalized so effectively and exported our own bigotry so much that there is really no place in this conspiracy thinking that doesn't involve Jews. Brooke 30:06 You might say the genesis of conspiracy theories? (Laughter.) I learned so much in the last 10 minutes. I feel like when I go back and listen to this episode, I'm gonna play it at three-quarters speed and pause to ponder things. No, seriously, I really did. Thank you for the deep historical context there because a lot of that that was unknown to me, that I went, you know, "What, what?" Shane Burley 30:36 I also know it's a lot, too. And I think this is part of the problem is that in any given situation, particularly in situations of anger, how useful is it for me to explain to them what host desecration is, you know? I think it's actually hard to intervene in these spaces. And it's especially hard to intervene when there's really contentious stuff, like Israeli colonization of Palestine and stuff. So it's actually really hard with this very justified anger. And the targets of those angers are actually are coded as Jews. I think it's actually really hard to then intervene and say, "Hey, hold up, you're actually doing a thing. And it has a history and it's a problem." Casandra Johns 31:15 It also makes it difficult to talk about anti semitism in simple terms. I feel like sometimes when people ask me questions about it, that should be simple questions, I'm overwhelmed by the amount of information I'd have to transmit to give them proper context. You know what I mean? Brooke 31:32 I have literally been that person to Casandra. Casandra Johns 31:37 I was interviewing him and I was like, we should do an interview about this. Shane Burley 31:41 We transmute American racial taxonomies on to anti semitism that don't really fit, you know. The couple of interviewees that I had for the book that made this interesting point, they phrased it in an interesting way. And I think JFRCJ, Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, had framed it this way, as well: Only sometimes does anti semitism make Jews poor. It doesn't make us poor all the time. And in fact sometimes it stabilizes Jewish income. So for example, in areas when Jews would have been a hyper exploited population, they're allowed to have certain amounts of wealth as a way of defecting anger from peasant classes away from the actual rich people and onto the Jews. So they might not actually interact with a noble person, but they would interact with a Jew, and they might see the Jew having stable money, and there might be nice things in their home, and that would communicate to them: "This is the person that's exploiting me, rather than the Noble who I've never come across." And there's a certain kind of positioning of Jews in a lot of those situations. Shane Burley 32:40 You know, one thing we talk about in the book is this phenomenon of Jews, and the relationship of white Jews to whiteness, is that when white Jews were very openly accepted as white folks in the US, particularly after the Second World War, there was a kind of class jumping that took place. But what happened was that a lot of Jews - particularly what we call a kind of second wave Jews moving here in the 1920s - were very poor, a lot of them socialists, a lot of working in garment factories, union organizers. But basically, in these dense urban areas, they started to leave those urban areas as they were kind of coded as white, became middle class, and in a lot of ways conservatized, right? Israel was formed in 1948. There's other things that kind of made more conservative. And who moved into those areas? It was a lot of black folks, it's a lot of Puerto Rican folks, lots of communities of color, where Jews now might be the business owner. They might be the landlord because they kind of class jump. They might own the grocery store that all the folks in the community use, and have maybe jacked up prices, or they work and they're not being treated really well. And so again, that dynamic is continued of them being sort of the middle agent, you know? The Jewish shop owner does not control capitalism, but they are the person you might see. And so again, you kind of repeat that dynamic. Shane Burley 33:55 So it's not always that Jews are going to experience anti semitism in the way that black folks experience anti blackness in the same kind of structural way. And also the US is not foundationally built on anti semitism in the way that it's built on anti blackness and colonialism. So it works fundamentally differently. There are some cases in which it looks more similar. So for the Orthodox Jews, they are more likely to be, you know, hurt by police, they are more likely to be poor. There's a recent study that came out that if someone is coded as Jewish in employment, they're much, much less likely to hire them. There's usually other things that kind of go along with it... There's limited data on this, but it's not with someone who's coded as a secular Jew, it's more like if they're coded as Orthodox, where someone's different, seems like it might cause you a problem, or it might make you uncomfortable. Or if it feels like they hold Jewish qualities that are associated with unsavory-ness, you know, like large noses or weird ways of speaking. Or maybe they bring weird food into the office, stuff like that. So those things do actually happen, but in general, it works differently. Shane Burley 35:04 And so there's a certain kind of structural unsafety for Jews, they're always kind of worrying about whether the other shoe was going to drop because anytime there's instability Jews often get targeted in that. But that doesn't mean in the day to day they usually, you know, can't find a job, or [get] pulled over at disproportionate rates. So it works differently. It's hard for people to identify that. Shane Burley 35:24 This is kind of true in general when we're talking about oppression outside of really narrow terms, people generally have learned to understand things in a certain way, and dominant hegemonic discourses, and then learning new ways is really, really tough. I think it really, it's really clear, for example, in the way that the Left just seemed totally unwilling to understand trends and issues for decades, just totally looked like they couldn't compute how little they understand sex work issues, or body issues, fat issues. It's an unwillingness to see that oppression is actually different for different folks, either individually or as groups, and to sort of accommodate for that, and to think through how these things are complicated. And so we can't assume that one thing tracks with another, that you can talk about oppression in one situation and have it be the same for another. So I think that creates that problem you're talking about. So what are you going to do, you know? Sit down and say, "Look, we need to have a conversation about, you know, second century Egypt, BC, and how Jews are coded as this." I mean, it's, it's a hard proposition. Casandra Johns 36:32 We have to talk, we have to go back to 1905. Talk about Czarist Russia. (laughter.) Yeah. I'm wondering, so I'm trying to remember exactly how you phrased it. But when there's, when there's instability, that's when people tend to target Jews. And when there's instability, that's when conspiracy theories also seem to, like, foment as well as fascism. And I'm wondering if you can talk about how those things are related, especially because you write books about fascism and anti semitism. Shane Burley 37:07 I mean, fascism is also an attempt to liberate oneself, right? It's to liberate oneself by inculcating more oppression, like an auto immune response, right? We're gonna attack the immune system, as if that's actually what's harming us. We're gonna attack, you know, the movement to undo white supremacy because that may be what's harming us, rather than, obviously, the reverse. So it's tenfold by two things: One is a sort of a centralized identity, and one is a sort of social stratification. So the idea is that your identity is fixed and must be preserved. And that's an essential piece, usually racial identity, but sometimes it's others. And then the other thing is that all of humanity has to be stratified in this hierarchy, you... are white, because you are not black, and that whiteness is above blackness, for example. And this is a way of taking a privileged part of the class and telling them that their oppression is the cause of the progress of other parts of the class. So it's specifically about splitting the class. So in a way, it's very clear what it's doing, it's disallowing you the ability to organize amongst working people or non-rich people, to change the society that is better for all of you. Right? So it's very specific in that way. Shane Burley 37:42 Anti semitism and conspiracy theories are a story about your oppression that never get to the structural roots, that are usually factually untrue, and are able to kind of break potential solidarity. So I think where the immediate hardships of actual organizing are onerous, confusing, and frightening: conspiracy theories actually disallow that. So for example, if I really want to change the world, it's going to require things of me, right? I'm going to need to figure out how I'm participating in white supremacy so that I can actually collaborate with non white folks. And once we do that, it actually changes the world for all of us, right? This makes it much better for us, like I personally benefit from that. But getting there, it's a little bit hard sometimes. It's also confusing, I don't quite see it, I've never seen it before, right? And I'm actually running into this movement. It's telling me that my whiteness is actually the thing that would make me happy, that whiteness is actually the thing that historically kept me safe, that whiteness is actually what I'm trying to protect. It's not all this class conflict stuff. That's the lies that they tell you, you know, those cabals that actually want to take from you, they're all socialist movements. And I think, so, people are out there and confused. Shane Burley 38:19 And remember, bigotry, it's really interesting because it speaks to people almost like their conscience, it's impulsive. It felt really emotionally... it feels true to people. I can tell you what doesn't feel true is Marxist jargon... That's what feels true. A lot of times when someone speaks of it they're trying, you're searching for a way to liberate yourself. You're looking for a revolutionary story about it. And then someone comes in and tells you something that actually tracks with a lot of the impulses you felt historically because being raised in the society we are that teaches people to understand the world in a certain way. So I think those movements come up in that way. Shane Burley 40:12 You know, fascism is just a particularly modern and revolutionary version of something that happens all the time. It has historically happened for centuries, you know, this kind of impulse to actually, to barrel down into a hierarchy, to basically reestablish tradition and immobile social roles, and to focus on identity at the cost of all others. So, instability simply radicalized this people to change their lot. And that is what's happening at such a systemic level. Now, because capitalism is imploding, the environment is collapsing, the stasis of the 20th century cannot continue any longer. And so that necessitates radicalism of all types. Which is also why, in a sense, stay anti fascism, because if you want any kind of revolutionary movement that's positive, you're gonna have to reckon with the revolutionary movement that's not positive. Casandra Johns 40:58 Right? Seems simple enough. Brooke 41:06 So you're working in some real toxic material, they're dealing with fascism with anti semitism with conspiracy theories, and that's got to, you know, take a toll on you on your mental health and well being. And I'm wondering what you do for yourself to help take care of yourself? And spoiler: this leads into, you know, a deeper question, which is what we always try to get to in Live Like the World is Dying, is talking about how we help others, and then we help our communities with this. But what do you do for yourself? Shane Burley 41:38 Having Andy Ngo sub tweet you, or whatever. Shane Burley 41:38 I don't, I think the reality is that I don't have a good, solid answer to that question. I don't, think that I formed health in my life in a very perfect way. But there's a couple of things I kind of thought about. I mean, I think one is that I think researching the far right is actually sort of empowering to people. I think, you know, if I kind of tried to figure out what it is I'm doing here, like, why am I here, it's not just for productive work, it's not just that I want to produce something that will stop it, I think, is productive. I mean, that's certainly a part of it. But there's also a certain part of it about looking at something that seems frightening and confusing, and sort of under the illusion that if I keep listening, and I keep reading it, it will somehow make sense to me. And that gives me sort of control over my life in a way. And I feel like I can sort of manage it, even though it actually brings instability into my life, you know, putting my name on an article about it, and you know, get threats from proud boys or white nationalists, that brings instability and - Shane Burley 41:49 Totally, I mean, that is actually unstable. But there is a sense that looking at stuff, I think, brings a certain stability. You know, in doing this book, I was interviewing a rabbi from Chabad-Lubavitch which is like a Hasidic. He's kind of particularly like, left leaning. Hot Seat. But, you know, I was talking to him about anti semitism, particularly in Orthodox communities, which often gets discussed as being the more, sort of facing it more frequently because of their visibility, you know, an Orthodox Jew is very visible. And a Herati, or ultra-orthodox view is even more visible than that, you know, black hats, suits, people kind of know what they're looking at. And he was telling me about, you know, "I don't really concern myself much with anti semitism." And I was like, "Well why not?" He's like, "Well, it's not very Jewish." And he was like, "I actually fill my life with Jewish things. And this is particularly not Jewish." And so, you know, part of me is sort of like, the opposite to this is to engage, is to deny engage with things that aren't Jewish, is to basically say, "Actually, I am going to be really purposely involved in the antithesis to these." You know? Casandra Johns 43:58 There's also something very Jewish about deconstructing something like down into its tiniest parts. Shane Burley 44:07 No, yeah, they had all the quotes from from the rabbi about this, which I thought was great... We forget, I think, what we're doing here all the time, being involved in organizing, being involved in work of any kind is meant to create a joyous life. It's meant to actually do something, perform something in your life. And I think we get so obsessed with functionality, and we don't actually live those lives. And the answer to that is actually living those lives. It's building strong relationships with other people. It's engauging art and spiritual life, the things that give your life meaning. I think engaging in that as openly and sort of like flagrantly as possible is is what you do there. And it's interesting because what the far right does is it sort of shows you the vulnerable empathetic parts of yourself, right? Because it it appears in those cracks, it appears in the things that they target. So those in a way are how you come to learn about what's meaningful about yourself, you know. Jewishness is targeted. That's exactly what I find meaningful. Those are the things that I bond with other people about. That's how I find a path forward in my life. And so I think all those sorts of things, engaging as much as possible with that. And I think it's perhaps on us to think less about what we can produce and give to people, as much as we can be with them. I mean, this happens all the time in organizing spaces. I used to be the worst offender about this, you know? "No, that's bad organizing. No, that's just cultural production. No, that's navel gazing." No, I think we should engage in cultural production and navel gazing, like, we should make us happy. I think that there needs to be a lot more of that. And any kind of organizing work that people are engaged in, or when any kind of work needs to be in the service of that, and that's how it should be measured. And not like reproducing the same metrics or bosses do about how productive we should be and what that's about. Casandra Johns 46:03 We shouldn't just reproduce capitalism in our anarchist spaces? Shane Burley 46:07 I mean, this happens all the time, right? It happens all the time. We are ritually unkind with each other, unloving, unwelcoming. It's the absolute worst. And I think it's interesting because we used to talk about, statistically for example, abuse, domestic abuse, and sexual assault are commiserate in activist spaces as they are in the rest of the world. There's no actual difference. So like, all the people that are doing these workshops on consent, and addressing abuse and stuff, tend to reproduce those dynamics as much as anywhere else. I would say that unkindness and a lack of community is even worse in active spaces; they are not particularly joyous places to be. I find them very hard in a lot of ways to be in those anymore. And I think that's sort of what we have to do, we have to look really carefully about how we build those relationships in authentic ways. That's how I think you survived doing hard, kind of trying work, putting yourself in vulnerability. Vulnerable spaces only works if you can live in a comfortable, vulnerable way. So I think when I say I'm not really there yet, I feel like I that's the direction I would like to go. That's how I would stay sort of healthy in a way, if that makes sense. Brooke 47:27 Yeah, so part of our community response to conspiracy theories and conspiracy theory thinking, and fascism and anti semitism, is kindness and compassion for others. And when they show up with their vulnerabilities, accepting those? Shane Burley 47:44 Absolutely. I mean, there's this old IWW poster, it says something like, "If you're not talking to your co workers, somebody else is," and it has a picture of the Klan. Brooke 47:57 Hardcore. Shane Burley 47:58 You know, like, if you're in rural America, we aren't talking to folks, but someone is talking to them. And they are validating their experiences. And they're saying, "Yeah, that's really fucking hard." They're not going to someone who's losing their farm and a foreclosure and saying, like, "Just to be real, have you checked your privilege, and like, you're not the most marginalized person in this situation." That's a hard thing to throw at people, people are actually having a really tough time most of the time. And we have to find a way to connect with them, and also not put up with their bullshit and actually talk to them about conditions of settler colonialism, white supremacy, but we need to actually invest in people. They will not care about us unless we care about them. And conspiracy theories very much are people's attempt to make sense of their lives. And so participating with them and making that sense, I think, is useful. You know, I'm Anti Fascist first, which means I'm defense first, defense always comes first. We protect communities before we do anything else. I don't think that's the same though is addressing cconspiracy theories all over the place, and figuring out how we address them with compassion with people. We care about how we address them institutionally. How we stop them when they need to be stopped, like how do we create barriers and borders, all those things are important. But I think in our communities, in general, a lot of conspiracy theories emerge out of dispossession. And we have to choose whether or not to possess those people basically, do we want to create that? Margaret says this too. I mean, the best way to confront conspiracy theories is to give someone a life that matters. I mean, that's what we're actually doing here. So I think focusing on that underlying fertile soil, figuring out how to change that dynamic, give people real tools, give them real relationships and friendship. I think that's really important. Casandra Johns 49:42 Do you have any favorite tools or resources? So my preface to this is that I've had people ask me this question and the reality is that my favorite resources on anti semitism and conspiracy theories are really dense, and most people will not read them. So I'm wondering if you have any favorite tools or resources that are more digestible? Shane Burley 50:03 Yeah, I think there's a few good pamphlets right now that exist that are useful on this. Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, which has been around for decades, it's this progressive left-leaning Jewish group, has a pamphlet on anti semitism that's particularly good. April Rosenbloom has a pamphlet called The Past Didn't Go Anywhere. That's also really good on this. There's a pamphlet put out by, I think it was a group called Unity and Struggle, called How to Overthrow the Illuminati. It's specifically about conspiracy theories and black communities. That's a really good resource. And there's a few others. Again, I think what, you know, one thing you're pointing out is that one of the issues around anti semitism is that the Right has sort of captured the rhetoric on it because they use it to defend Israel. They use accusations of anti semitism to defend Israel. And they over shoot the claims that the Left is anti semitic. So a lot of these groups just simply don't share a worldview with us enough that their analysis I find particularly compelling. But there are some versions of the Left that have done it, and they tend to be particularly academic. So Critical Theory, and Frankfurt School of Marxism, you know, there's a lot of that stuff, right. And that's good, but gobbly gook most of the time. There's a basically lost, forgotten world of Jewish feminism from the 70s and 80s that is actually quite interesting. But it's like next to impossible to find. So the anti fascist stuff, because anti fascists are kind of ahead of the curve on the anti semitism question. But I think those pamphlets are particularly good to hand someone, and hopefully Ben and my book will be will be like that. I'm hoping it will be. Casandra Johns 51:45 Yeah. Yeah. Maybe this is just part of anti semitism, and also conspiracy theorism, because critical thinking is difficult and can't always be, you know, handed to someone in a tiny package. But it just feels someone has to actually be invested in learning about it. It's difficult to explain. Shane Burley 52:13 David Renton, who's he's this great author and an attorney in Britain - and he writes a lot about the history of anti fascism - he wrote this book on the Labour Party's anti semitism, controversy. So people who don't know: the Labour Party in Britain has been embroiled in this big anti semitism controversy for the past several years. It has been cynically employed by the Tories as a way of attacking the party. And it's pretty obvious that that's what's happening. But it's also obvious that there has been some instances of anti semitism in the party. It's not nearly what the Right says of this, but it does happen. And, you know, David's sort of relitigated this and kind of pointed out that it's, you know, the party is turned towards populism and everyone's turned towards populism. A few years ago, populism became kind of the thing that had a weak point, and basically kind of didn't call out conspiracy theories, so they started making their way in, or kind of crude anti semitic ideas. And it's like the answer to that is actually if you look at the what works for the Labour Party, it's actually class war is the answer to that, actually talking to people about class ends up being the antidote to that and having political education. Daniel Randall, another friend of mine, from Britain, had talked about, wrote about this. And I get political education is something that feels really dorky, and not fun to do, and not what people want to do in a lot of spaces, but it was an essential piece of radical movements that aren't there anymore. So actually talking to people about these things, and getting involved people to read some things. I think, you know, people do this in really overblown ways. Lord knows there's a million Marxist groups that make you sit in reading groups all day, and no one wants to be a part of that. But like having some progress on stuff and explaining what kind of anti capitalism we actually mean, I think is a useful thing. And it's one of the better ways intervene on that. Casandra Johns 54:01 That book, Daniel's book, what is it? Confronting Anti Semitism on the Left? He's the one who wrote that, right? Shane Burley 54:10 Yeah, yeah. Casandra Johns 54:11 That sounds right? That book was incredible. Shane Burley 54:14 Yeah. He's really incredible. Yeah, I think I think, you know, one thing is when it comes to anti semitism, specifically, most people don't know Jews and don't know much about Judaism. So I think just letting people know. I mean, the amount of times I've heard things repeated that are just bombastically untrue - like, for example, I was a Student for Justice in Palestine, and we had this event and someone asked the speaker where Zionism came from, and he said, "It's in the Talmud." Just like bonkers stuff, you know? Casandra Johns 54:52 Which is a think that, like, a Zionist might say. Ironically. Shane Burley 54:58 I interviewed Sean Magee when doing my book, and he made a point that a lot of the worst corners of anti Zionism tend to agree with the settlers. And so I think it's just getting people that kind of understanding. I think if people understand conspiracy theories and why they're toxic and what the consequences of them are, I think that's more useful. And then again, getting people in verifiable forms of community that actually meet their needs, I think that actually is more useful. I think when people get involved, for example, in the labor union, that tends to actually decline because they're like, "Okay, I could actually do this thing, I improve my wages this way, I actually have all this tactile control over my life." And then when people are in community with others they have these vulnerable, caring relationships, and they don't... have the same impulse to build the kind of alienating, almost cosmic-level, theories about the world. You know, believing in Q Anon is a really lonely thing, breaks up families or breaks up relationships. So I think all that kind of stuff is really alienating for people. Shane Burley 56:02 But you know, there's this thing called the wave, and SEIU - SEIU is a big labor union - and they have this model of what they call a union conversation, they call it the wave. It's eight steps of how to have a conversation. It's very dorky. But in the conversation, you do a few things, right? You introduce yourself. You listen to what people are saying, you agitate on their issues, you call questions, you know, you do a number of stages to get someone thinking about their issue, why it upsets them and what they can do about it. But you do two things: One, you always plan that when you talk to them, how can we win on this issue? How can we fix it? Is it possible? And then you inoculate them against what the boss will say. What will the boss say when you try and do that? What do they say to you? How is that bullshit? And we don't 'plan the win' with people. And we certainly don't inoculate them. People need to see how they can win. They have to know how it's possible. If someone's having issues in their lives, they have to see how it can win. And if we don't have a sense of that, we're not gonna be able to help with that. And we need to work that out with folks. Shane Burley 57:08 And also talk to them about, like, people are gonna give you other messages about this. Like, what do you think about that? What would you say back to that? Because I think particularly conspiracy thinking, a lot of people get trapped in not understanding the systems and saying, "Well, fuck, I guess that's the deal. I guess the Rothschilds do own it, I don't know." And so I think planning the win and inoculation are really important in that. And that's true in general. There's this assumption that if such a situation gets so bad, that the working class will rise up and overthrow it, but there's no evidence to suggest that. None. What does statistically show people, or what simply pushes people to taking that kind of action, is seeing that they can win. So small victories in their life or in organizing leads to big victories. You have to show people they can win. The pathway to winning using multiracial, you know, community organizing of whatever it is that base building that's, I think, the most important piece because that will then totally push away the sort of false answers. Casandra Johns 58:08 That seems important in terms of motivating people to care as well. You know, like, no, strategically, this is very important in all of our best interests. Shane Burley 58:18 I had this conversation with a member of the John Brown Anti-Klan Committee, which is an anti-fascist group from the 80s, and I was talking to them - I'll just withhold their name for the sake of this conversation - but I was asking him like, how do you commute? Because, you know, John Brown was essentially a white organization, it recruited white leftist folks in support of a kind of anti-white supremacy platform in support of black nationalism and some other things. In a lot of ways kind of divisive, a kind of divisive organization, their politics are a little divisive. And asked, like, "Well, how do you communicate to white working class people why eradicating white supremacy is in their interest?" And she said, she kind of paused and said, "I don't know that it is in their interest." She's like, "I don't communicate with him on that. I communicate with them about what kind of world do you want to live with?" And I told her, I was like, I just disagree with that entirely. I think it is in their interest, and you have to tell them why it's in their interest. And you have to plan out why it's in their interest. I do believe it's in my interest. And when it comes to conspiracy, there's anti semitism, it's super clear why it's in their interest because anti semitism will stop you from winning. It's just so point blank, right? Like George Soros is not the reason you can't pay your mortgage, it's simply not that... Casandra Johns 59:34 Anti semitism, however. Brooke 59:36 Is also not the reason, just to be clear. Not the reason. Shane Burley 59:40 Yeah, that's really great. So Shane, you've mentioned your books, you've got one that just came out right? No Pasaran. Shane Burley 59:40 There are people doing this and they have names and addresses, but... what you're saying is a false pathway. It's totally to direct you the wrong way. And we should talk to people about what happens when they don't just double down on privilege. They don't just double down on those sorts of things. What happens when they reach across communities and build large committees? They become infinitely more powerful. I mean, it's just so overwhelming the kind of change that you can have and not just in the long term, in the immediate term. You can see that with a labor movement. You see that with any social movemnet, that's one serious gain that happened by doing that. It never happened by doubling down on their privilege. So I think talking to people about their interests is essential. And that also shows that you actually give a shit about them because of their interests are your interests, that shows that there's an actual shared bond there, and you can build something. Shane Burley 1:00:38 It was a phrase used particularly during the Spanish Civil War, about blocking fascist access to space and movement into communities. So it's about blocking them, their ability to, to arrive. Brooke 1:00:51 Nice. Okay, so No Pasaran, that just came out. I've got a friend who picked it up at Powell's when you were there doing a book event or reading recently. He said it's really good, and is gonna loan me his copy. So I'm excited to get to read that too. I know you're working on another one - we've talked about it here - on anti semitism. Does that one have a name yet? Do you know when it's coming out? Shane Burley 1:01:11 Yeah, it's called Safety Through Solidarity. Casandra Johns 1:01:15 Nice. Brooke 1:01:15 Beautiful. Shane Burley 1:01:16 Yeah. And I think it'll come out like this time next year. I think that's what it is. So we're sort ofstarting to wrap it up now, like in the writing of it. Brooke 1:01:27 So in the meantime, people can pick up No Pasaran, and then look forward to that. Anything else that you want to plug today, Shane? Shane Burley 1:01:36 Actually, yes, I will be doing more book events in Jan
Today, we have the pleasure of speaking with Emmy award winner (thrice over!) Elisabeth Williams, the incredibly talented production designer for The Handmaid's Tale. We hope you enjoy hearing about the making of so many of our favorite sets throughout The Handmaid's Tale as much as we did-as well as Elisabeth's personal journey to the top of such a fun and fascinating career! ▪️ This episode will include spoilers for new viewers as we discuss the show to date, which is through Season 5, Episode 10. ▫️ And since you enjoy Elisabeth's work so much, be sure to check out her other work in Fargo on FX, Channel Zero on SyFy and many more! ▪️ Please come find us on Instagram at @tht_abovethegageage and Twitter at @AboveGaragePod #TheHandmaidsTale
Episode Notes Episode Summary Margaret and Smokey talk about ways to go about mental first aid, how to alter responses to trauma for you self and as a community, different paths to resiliency, and why friendship and community are truly the best medicine. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Next Episode Hopefully will come out Friday, December, 2nd and will probably be This Month In the Apocalypse. Transcript LLWD:Smokey on Mental First Aid Margaret 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast are what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret killjoy. And, this week or month...or let's just go with 'episode'. This episode is going to be all about mental health and mental health first aid and ways to take care of your mental health and ways to help your community and your friends take care of their mental health, and I think you'll like it. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:52 Okay, with me today is Smokey. Smokey, could you introduce yourself with your your name, your pronouns, and I guess a little bit about your background about mental health stuff? Smokey 02:04 Sure, I'm Smokey. I live and work in New York City. My pronouns are 'he' and 'him.' For 23 years, I've been working with people managing serious mental illness in an intentional community, I have a degree in psychology, I have taught psychology at the University level, I have been doing social work for a long time, but I've been an anarchist longer. Margaret 02:43 So so the reason I want to have you on is I want to talk about mental health first aid, or I don't know if that's the way it normally gets expressed, but that's the way I see it in my head. Like how are...I guess it's a big question, but I'm interested in exploring ways that we can, as bad things happen that we experience, like some of the best practices we can do in order to not have that cause lasting mental harm to us. Which is a big question. But maybe that's my first question anyway. Smokey 03:12 I mean, the, the truth is bad things will happen to us. It's part of living in the world, and if you are a person that is heavily engaged in the world, meaning, you know, you're involved in politics, or activism, or even just curious about the world, you will probably be exposed on a more regular basis to things that are bad, that can traumatize us. But even if you're not involved in any of those things, you're going to go through life and have really difficult things happen to you. Now, the good news is, that's always been the case for people. We've always done this. And the good news is, we actually know a lot about what goes into resilience. So, how do you bounce back quickly and hopefully thrive after these experiences? I think that is an area that's only now being really examined in depth. But, we have lots of stories and some research to show that actually when bad things happen to us, there is an approach that actually can help catalyst really impressive strength and move...change our life in a really positive direction. We also know that for most people, they have enough reserve of resiliency that....and they can draw upon other resiliency that they're not chronically affected by it, however, and I would argue how our society is kind of structured, we're seeing more and more people that are suffering from very serious chronic effects of, what you said, bad things happening, or what is often traumatic things but it's not just traumatic things that cause chronic problems for us. But, that is the most kind of common understanding so, so while most people with most events will not have a chronic problem, and you can actually really use those problems, those I'm sorry, those events, let's call them traumatic events, those traumatic events they'll really actually improve your thriving, improve your life and your relationship to others in the world. The fact is, currently, it's an ever growing number of people that are having chronic problems. And that's because of the system. Margaret 06:19 Yeah, there's this like, there was an essay a while ago about it, I don't remember it very well, but it's called "We Are Also Very Anxious," and it it was claiming that anxiety is one of the general affects of society today, because of kind of what you're talking about, about systems that set us up to be anxious all the time and handle things in... Smokey 06:42 I think what most people don't understand is, it is consciously, in the sense that it's not that necessarily it's the desire to have the end goal of people being anxious, and people being traumatized, but it is conscious in that we know this will be the collateral outcome of how we set up the systems. That I think is fairly unique and and really kind of pernicious. Margaret 07:17 What are some of the systems that are setting us up to be anxious or traumatized? Smokey 07:23 Well, I'm gonna reverse it a little bit, Margaret. I'm going to talk about what are the things we need to bounce back or have what has been called 'resilience,' and then you and I can explore how our different systems actually make us being able to access that much more difficult. Margaret 07:47 Okay. Oh, that makes sense. Smokey 07:49 The hallmark of resiliency, ironically, is that it's not individual. Margaret 07:57 Okay. Smokey 07:57 In fact, if you look at the research, there are very few, there's going to be a couple, there's gonna be three of them, but very few qualities of an individual psychology or makeup that is a high predictor of resiliency. Margaret 08:20 Okay. Smokey 08:21 And these three are kind of, kind of vague in the sense they're not, they're not terribly dramatic, in a sense. One is, people that tend to score higher on appreciation of humor, tends to be a moderate predictor of resiliency. Margaret 08:46 I like that one. Smokey 08:47 You don't have to be funny yourself. But you can appreciate humor. Seems to be a....and this is tends to be a cross cultural thing. It's pretty low. There are plenty of people that that score very low on that, that also have resiliency. That's the other thing, I'll say that these three personality traits are actually low predictors of resiliency. Margaret 09:13 Compared to the immunity ones that you're gonna talk about? Smokey 09:16 So one is appreciation of humor seems to be one. So, these are intrinsic things that, you know, maybe we got from our family, but but we hold them in ourselves, right? The second one is usually kind of put down as 'education.' And there tends to be a reverse bell curve. If you've had very, very low education, you tend to be more resilient. If you've had extreme professionalization, you know, being a doctor, being a lawyer, well, not even being a lawyer, because that's the only...but many, many years of schooling, PhD things like that, it's not what you study. There's something about... Smokey 10:10 Yeah, or that you didn't. They're almost equal predictors of who gets traumatized. And then the the last one is kind of a 'sense of self' in that it's not an ego strength as we kind of understand it, but it is an understanding of yourself. The people that take the surveys, that they score fairly high....So I give you a survey and say, "What do you think about Smokey on these different attributes?" You give me a survey and say, "Smokey, how would you rate yourself on these different attributes?" Margaret 10:11 It's that you studied. Margaret 10:32 Okay. Smokey 10:59 So, it's suggesting that I have some self-reflexivity about what my strengths and weaknesses are. I can only know that because they're married by these also. Margaret 11:11 Okay. So it's, it's not about you rating yourself high that makes you resilient, it's you rating yourself accurately tohow other people see you. Smokey 11:18 And again, I want to stress that these are fairly low predictors. Now, you'll read a million books, kind of pop like, or the, these other ones. But when you actually look at the research, it's not, you know, it's not that great. So those..however, the ones that are big are things like 'robustness of the social network.' So how many relations and then even more, if you go into depth, 'what are those relationships' and quantity does actually create a certain level of quality, interestingly, especially around things called 'micro-social interactions,' which are these interactions that we don't even think of as relationships, maybe with storepersons, how many of these we have, and then certain in depth, having that combined with a ring of kind of meaningful relationships. And meaningful meaning not necessarily who is most important to me, but how I share and, and share my emotions and my thoughts and things like that. So, there's a lot on that. That is probably the strongest predictor of resilience. Another big predictor of resilience is access to diversity in our social networks. So, having diverse individuals tend to give us more resiliency, and having 'time,' processing time, also gives us more...are high predictors of resiliency, the largest is a 'sense of belonging.' Margaret 13:14 Okay. Smokey 13:15 So that trauma...events that affect our sense of belonging, and this is why children who have very limited opportunities to feel a sense of belonging, which are almost always completely limited, especially for very young children to the family, if that is cut off due to the trauma, or it's already dysfunctional and has nothing to do with the trauma, that sense of belonging, that lack of sense of belonging makes it very difficult to maintain resilience. So. So those are the things that, in a nutshell, we're going to be talking about later about 'How do we improve these?' and 'How do we maximize?' And 'How do we leverage these for Mental Health First Aid?' We can see how things like the internet, social media, capitalism, you know, kind of nation state building, especially as we understand it today, all these kinds of things errode a lot of those things that we would want to see in building resilient people. Margaret 14:28 Right. Smokey 14:28 And, you know, making it more difficult to access those things that we would need. Margaret 14:34 No, that's...this...Okay, yeah, that makes it obvious that the answer to my question of "What are the systems that deny us resiliency?" are just all of this. Yeah, because we're like....most people don't have...there's that really depressing statistic or the series of statistics about the number of friends that adults have in our society, and how it keeps going down every couple of decades. Like, adults just have fewer and fewer friends. And that... Smokey 15:00 The number, the number is the same for children, though too. Margaret 15:05 Is also going down, is what you're saying? Smokey 15:07 Yes. They have more than adults. But compared to earlier times, they have less. So, the trend is not as steep as a trendline. But, but it is still going down. And more importantly, there was a big change with children at one point, and I'm not sure when it historically happened. But, the number of people they interacted with, was much more diverse around age. Margaret 15:39 Oh, interesting. Smokey 15:40 So they had access to more diversity. Margaret 15:43 Yeah, yeah. When you talk about access to diversity, I assume that's diversity in like a lot of different axis, right? I assume that's diversity around like people's like cultural backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, age. Like, but even like... Smokey 15:56 Modes of thought. Margaret 15:58 Yeah, well, that's is my guess, is that if you're around more people, you have more of an understanding that like, reality is complicated, and like different people see things in different ways. And so therefore, you have a maybe a less rigid idea of what should happen. So, then if something happens outside of that, you're more able to cope, or is this...does... like, because I look at each of these things and I can say why I assume they affect resiliency, but obviously, that's not what you're presenting, you're not presenting how they affect resiliency, merely that they seem to? Smokey 16:34 Yeah, and I don't know, if we know exactly how they affect, and we don't know how they...the effect of them together, you know, social sciences, still pretty primitive. So they, they need to look at single variables, often. But you know, we know with chemistry and biology and ecology, which I think are a little more sophisticated...and physics, which is more sophisticated. The real interesting stuff is in the combinations. Margaret 17:09 Yeah. Okay. Smokey 17:10 So what happens when you have, you know, diversity, but also this diverse and robust social network? Is that really an addition? Or is that a multiplication moment? For resiliency. Margaret 17:23 Right. And then how does that affect like, if that comes at the expense of...well, it probably wouldn't, but if it came at the expense of processing time or something. Smokey 17:33 Exactly. Margaret 17:35 Or, like, you know, okay, I could see how it would balance with education in that, like, I think for a lot of people the access to diversity that they encounter first is like going off to college, right, like meeting people from like, different parts of the world, or whatever. Smokey 17:49 I forgot to mention one other one, but it is, 'meaning.' Meaning is very important. People that score high, or report, meaning deep, kind of core meaning also tend to have higher resiliency. That being said, they...and don't, don't ever confuse resiliency with like, happiness or contentment. It just means that the dysfunction or how far you're knocked off track due to trauma, and we're, we're using trauma in the larger sense of the word, you know, how long it takes you to get back on track, or whether you can even get back on track to where you were prior to the event is what we're talking about. So it's not, this is not a guide to happiness or living a fulfilled life. It's just a guide to avoid the damage. Margaret 19:01 But if we made one that was a specifically a 'How to have a happy life,' I feel like we could sell it and then have a lot of money.Have you considered that? [lauging] Smokey 19:11 Well one could argue whether that's even desirable to have a happy life. That's a whole philosophical thing. That's well beyond my paygrade Margaret 19:22 Yeah, every now and then I have this moment, where I realized I'm in this very melancholy mood, and I'm getting kind of kind of happy about it. And I'm like, "Oh, I'm pretty comfortable with this. This is a nice spot for me." I mean, I also like happiness, too, but you know. Okay, so, this certainly implies that the, the way forward for anyone who's attempting to build resiliency, the sort of holistic solution is building community. Like in terms of as bad stuff happens. Is that... Smokey 19:58 Community that's...and community not being just groups. Okay, so you can, I think, you know, the Internet has become an expert at creating groups. There lots of groups. But community, or communitas or the sense of belonging is more than just a shared interest and a shared knowledge that there's other like-minded people. You'll hear the internet was great for like minded people to get together. But, the early internet was really about people that were sharing and creating meaning together. And I think that was very powerful. That, you know, that seems harder to access on today's Internet, and certainly the large social media platforms are consciously designed to achieve certain modes of experience, which do not lend themselves to that. Margaret 21:06 Right, because it's like the...I don't know the word for this. Smokey 21:10 It's Capitalism. Like, yeah, we're hiding the ball. The ball is Capitalism. Margaret 21:14 Yeah. Smokey 21:14 And how they decided to go with an advertising model as opposed to any other model, and that requires attention. Margaret 21:21 Yeah. Because it seems like when you talk about a robust social network, I mean, you know, theoretically, social network, like social networks, you know, Twitter calls itself a social network, right? And is there anything in the micro social interactions that one has online? Is there value in that? Or do you think that the overall...I mean, okay, because even like looking at... Smokey 21:46 I think there has to be value, I think, yeah, they did. I was reading just today, actually, about research, it was in England, with...this one hospital decided to send postcards to people who had been hospitalized for suicidal attempts. Margaret 22:09 Okay. Smokey 22:10 Most of them ended up in the mental health thing, some of them didn't, because they they left beyond, you know, against medical advice, or whatever. But, anyone that came in presenting with that a month, and then three months later, they sent another postcard just saying, "You know, we're all thinking about you, we're hoping you're all you're doing, alright. We have faith in you," that kind of thing like that, right. Nice postcard, purposely chosen to have a nice scene, sent it out. And they followed up, and they found a significant reduction in further attempts, rehospitalizations of these people, so that's a very, you know, there's no, it's a one way communication, it's not person-to-person, and it had some impact on I would guess one could argue the resiliency of those people from giving into suicidal ideation. Right. Margaret 23:13 Yeah. Smokey 23:14 So I think this is to say that, you know, we'd be...unplugging the internet, you know, that kind of Luddite approach doesn't make sense. There is a value to answer your question to the the internet's micro social interactions. It's just we...it's complicated, because you can't just have micro-social interactions unfortunately, but you need them. Margaret 23:44 Yeah. No, that that's really interesting to me, because yeah, so there's, there is a lot of value that is coming from these things, but then the overall effect is this like, like, for example, even like access to diversity, right? In a lot of ways, theoretically, the Internet gives you access to like everything. But then, instead, it's really designed to create echo chambers in the way that the algorithms and stuff feed people information. And echo chambers of thought is the opposite of diversity, even if the echo chamber of thought is like about diversity. Smokey 24:16 Yeah, I mean, it's set up again, almost as if it were to kind of naturally organically grow, we would probably have just as chaotic and and people would still just be as angry at the Internet, but it probably would develop more resilience in people. Because it wouldn't be stunted by this need to attract attention. The easiest way to do that is through outrage. Easiest way to do that is quickly and fast, so it takes care of your processing time. And relative anonymity is the coin of these kinds of things, you know, that's why bots and things like that, you know, they're not even humans, right? You know, they're just...so all these kinds of things stunt and deform, what could potentially be useful, not a silver bullet, and certainly not necessary to develop resiliency, strong resiliency. You don't need the internet to do that. And there are certain...using the internet, you know, there's going to be certain serious limitations because of the design, how it's designed. Margaret 25:42 Okay, well, so hear me out. If the internet really started coming in latter half of the 20th century, that kind of lines up to when cloaks went out of style.... Smokey 25:54 Absolutely, that's our big problem. And they haven't done any research on cloak and resiliency. Margaret 26:00 I feel that everyone who wears a cloak either has a sense of belonging, or a distinct lack of a sense of belonging. Probably start off with a lack of sense of belonging, but you end up with a sense of belonging So, okay, okay. Smokey 26:15 So I want to say that there's two things that people confuse and a very important. One, is how to prevent chronic effects from traumatic experiences. And then one is how to take care of, if you already have or you you develop a chronic effect of traumatic experiences. Nothing in the psychology literature, sociology literature, anthropology literature, obviously, keeps you from having traumatic experiences. Margaret 26:52 Right. Smokey 26:54 So one is how to prevent it from becoming chronic, and one is how to deal with chronic and they're not the same, they're quite, quite different. So you know, if you already have a chronic traumatic response of some sort, post traumatic stress syndrome, or any of the other related phenomena, you will approach that quite differently than building resilience, which doesn't protect you from having trauma, a traumatic experience. It just allows you to frame it, understand it, maybe if you're lucky, thrive and grow from it. But at worst, get you back on track in not having any chronic problems. Margaret 27:48 Okay, so it seems like there's three things, there's the holistic, building a stronger base of having a community, being more resilient in general. And then there's the like direct first aid to crisis and trauma, and then there's the long term care for the impacts of trauma. Okay, so if so, we've talked a bit about the holistic part of it, you want to talk about the the crisis, the thing to do in the immediate sense as it's happening or whatever? Smokey 28:15 For yourself or for somebody else? Margaret 28:18 Let's start with self. Smokey 28:20 So, self is go out and connect to your social network as much as you can, which is the opposite of what your mind and body is telling you. And that's why I think so much of the quote unquote, "self-care" movement is so wrong. You kind of retreat from your social network, things are too intense, I'm going to retreat from your social network. The research suggests that's the opposite of what you should be doing, you should connect. Now, if you find yourself in an unenviable situation where you don't have a social network, then you need to connect to professionals, because they, they can kind of fill in for that social Network. Therapists, social workers, peer groups, support groups, things like that they can kind of fill in for that. The problem is you don't have that sense of belonging. Well, with support groups, you might. You see this often in AA groups or other support groups. You don't really get that in therapy or or group therapy so much. But that is the first thing and so connect to your group. Obviously on the other side, if you're trying to help your community, your group, you need to actively engage that person who has been traumatized. Margaret 29:33 Yeah, okay. Smokey 29:35 And it's going to be hard. And you need to keep engaging them and engaging them in what? Not distractions: Let's go to a movie, get some ice cream, let's have a good time. And not going into the details of the traumatic experience so much as reconnecting them to the belonging, our friendship, if that. Our political movement, if that. Our religious movement, if that. Whatever that...whatever brought you two together. And that could be you being the community in this person, or could be you as Margaret in this person connecting on that, doubling down on that, and often I see people do things like, "Okay, let's do some self care, or let's, let's do the opposite of whatever the traumatic experience was," if it came from, say oppression, either vicarious or direct through political involvement let's, let's really connect on a non-political kind of way. Margaret 31:19 Ah I see! Smokey 31:21 And I'm saying, "No, you should double down on the politics," reminding them of right what you're doing. Not the trauma necessarily not like, "Oh, remember when you got beaten up, or your, your significant other got arrested or got killed by the police," but it's connecting to meaning, and bringing the community together. Showing the resiliency of the community will vicariously and contagiously affect the individual. And again, doesn't have to be political could be anything. Margaret 32:01 Yeah. Is that? How does that that feels a little bit like the sort of 'get right back on the horse kind of thing.' But then like, in terms of like, socially, rather than, because we 'get back on the horse,' might mean might imply, "Oh, you got beat up at a riot. So go out to the next riot." And that's what you're saying instead is so "Involve you in the fundraising drive for the people who are dealing with this including you," or like... Smokey 32:28 And allowing an expectation that the individual who's been traumatized, might be having a crisis of meaning. And allowing that conversation, to flow and helping that person reconnect to what they found meaningful to start with. So getting right back on the horse again, it's reminding them why they love horses. Margaret 33:02 Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Okay, I have another question about the the crisis first aid thing, because there's something that, you know, something that you talked to me about a long time ago, when I was working on a lot of like reframing. I was working on coping with trauma. And so maybe this actually relates instead to long term care for trauma. And I, I thought of this as a crisis first aid kind of thing, is I'll use a like, low key example. When I was building my cabin, I'm slightly afraid of heights, not terribly, but slightly. And so I'm on a ladder in the middle of nowhere with no one around and I'm like climbing up the ladder, and I'm nailing in boards. And I found myself saying, "Oh, well, I only have three more boards. And then I'm done. I can get off the ladder. "And then I was like, "No, what I need to do is say, it's actually fine, I am fine. And I can do this," rather than like counting down until I can get off the ladder. And so this is like a way that I've been working on trying to build resiliency, you can apply this to lots of things like if I'm on an airplane, and I'm afraid of flying or something I can, instead of being like, "Five more hours and then we're there. Four more hours and then we're there," instead of being like, "It's actually totally chill that I'm on an airplane. This is fine." And basically like telling myself that to reframe that. Is this....Am I off base with this? Is this tie into this, there's just a different framework? Smokey 34:27 That is what the individual should be trying to do is connect the three different things, keeping it simple. One, is to the community which gives them nourishment. On a plane or on your roof, that's not going to happen. Margaret 34:44 Yeah. Smokey 34:45 Though, actually, to be honest. If you're nervous and you have...go back to your roof example, which I think is a pretty good one. Let's say that you had more than three boards. Let's say it was gonna take you a couple hours to do that. But it's something you're nervous about, connecting to somebody in your social network, whether you, you have your earphones on, and you're just talking to them before or during...after doesn't help. That does one way. Or the other is connecting to what you were doing, which is connecting to kind of reframing or your own internal resilience. I've done something similar like this before. This is not something that is going to need to throw me, it is what's called pocketing the anxiety. Margaret 35:45 Okay. Smokey 35:45 Where you're other-izing it, being like, it's coming from you too, right? being like, "Hey, you could fall. This plane could go down," right? That that's still you, you're generating that. You're not hearing that over to, and you're saying, "Okay, but I'm going to try, you know, give primacy to this other voice in my head. That is saying, "You've got this, it's all right, you've done things like this before."" So that's the second thing. And that's what you were doing. So you could connect to your community, you could connect to kind of a reserve of resiliency. And to do that is allow that one to be pocketed. But be like, "Hey, I want to hear from what this core thing has to say. I want to hear from what the positive person on the front row has to say." You're not arguing with that one. You're just listening. You're changing your, your, what you're attuned to. And then the third one is, if you can, you connect to the meaning. What is the meaning of building the house for you? Where are you going on your flight? And why is it important? Margaret 37:03 Yeah. Okay, Smokey 37:05 And that anxiety and the fact that you're doing it, you want to give again, the primacy to the importance, that "Yeah, I'm really nervous, I'm really freaked out about this, but this thing is so important, or so good for me, or so healthy for me to do this. This must mean it's going to be really important. And I'm connecting to why it's important and focusing on that. So those are the three things that the individual can do. The helping person or community is engagement. The second one is the same, reconnecting to the meaning. Why did you love horses in the first place? Okay, don't have to get back on the horse. But let's not forget horses are awesome. Margaret 37:58 Yeah. Smokey 37:58 And Horseback riding is awesome. Margaret 38:01 Yeah. Smokey 38:01 And you were really good at it before you got thrown. But you know, you don't have to do it now, but let's, let's just let's just share our love of horses for a moment and see how that makes you feel. And then the third one is that kind of drawing upon, instead of drawing upon the individual resilience, which you were doing, like, "Hey, I got this," or the plane, you know, you were, you're hearing from other people, you're drawing upon their individual resilience. "Smokey, tell me about the time you did this thing that was hard." And I tell ya, you're like, "Well, Smokey can fucking do that I can do it. You don't even think...it doesn't even work necessarily consciously. Margaret 38:50 Right. Smokey 38:51 So you could see that what you're doing individually, the helper or the community is doing complementary. Margaret 38:59 Yeah. Smokey 39:00 And now you can see why a lot of self care narrative, a lot of taking a break a lot of burnout narrative, all these things, at best aren't going to help you and at worst, in my opinion, are kind of counterproductive. Margaret 39:17 Well, and that's the, to go to the, you know, working on my roof thing I think about...because I've had some success with this. I've had some success where I....there's certain fears that I have, like, suppressed or something like I've stopped being as afraid of...the fear is no longer a deciding factor in my decision making, because of this kind of reframing this kind of like, yeah, pocketing like...And it's probably always useful to have the like, I don't want to reframe so completely that I just walk around on a roof all the time, without paying attention to what I'm doing, right?Because people do that and then they fall and the reason that there's a reason that roofing is one of the most dangerous jobs in America. So a, I don't know I yeah, I, I appreciate that, that you can do that. And then if it's a thing you're going to keep doing anyway, it becomes easier if you start handling it like, carefully, you know? Smokey 40:17 Well, you don't want to give it too much. So why do we? Why is it natural for us to take anxiety or fear and focus on it? It's somewhat evolutionary, right? It's a threat, right? It's supposed to draw your attention, right? It's supposed to draw your attention. And if you're not careful, it will draw your attention away from other things that are quieter that like that resiliency in the front row you need to call on, because they're not as flashy, right? So I don't think you have to worry about threat....You're right. You don't want to get to the point where you and that's why I say 'pocket it,' as opposed to 'deny it, suppress it, argue with it. demolish it.' I think it's good to have that little, "Beep, beep, beep there's a threat," and then being like, "Okay, but I want to continue to do this. Let's hear from resiliency in the front row. What? What do you have to tell me too?" You have to not...what happens is we go into the weeds of the threat. Oh, so what? "Oh, I fall off and I compound fracture, and I'm way out here in the woods, and no one's going to get me. My phone isn't charged." That's not what the original beep was. Original beep like, "You're high up on a ladder, seems unstable. This seems sketchy," right? Okay. Got that. And then resilience is, "Yeah, you've done lots of sketchy stuff. You've written in the back of a pickup truck. That's sketchy, so seatbelt there, nothing, you know, let me remind you that that you can overcome." And, but by going into the anxiety, going into the fear, you're forcing yourself to justify the thing. And then it becomes more and more elaborate, and it gets crazier and crazier very quickly. You know, all of sudden, you're bleeding out and you're cutting your leg off with a pen knife. It's like, "Wow, how did all this happen?" Margaret 42:38 Yeah, well, and that's actually something that comes up a lot in terms of people interacting with the show and about like preparedness in general. Because in my mind, the point of paying attention to how to deal with forest fire while I live in the woods, is not to then spend all of my time fantasizing and worrying about forest fire. But instead, to compare it to this ladder, if I get this "Beep, beep, the ladder is unstable." I climb down, I stabilize the ladder as best as I can. And then I climb back up and I do the thing. And then when I think about like, with fire, I'm like, "Okay, I have done the work to minimize the risk of fire. And so now I can stop thinking about it." Like, I can listen to the little beep, beep noise and do the thing. And now I can ignore the beep beep because just like literally, when you're backing up a truck and it goes beep, beep, you're like, yeah, no, I know, I'm backing up. Thanks. You know, like, Smokey 43:35 Yeah, it's good to know, it's good to know, you're not going forward. Margaret 43:39 Yeah, no. No, okay. That's interesting. And then the other thing that's really interesting about this, the thing that you're presenting, is it means that in some ways, work that we present as very individual in our society, even in radical society, is actually community based on this idea, like so conquering phobias is something that we help one another do, it seems like, Smokey 44:02 Absolutely. I mean, the best stuff on all this stuff is that people reverse engineering it to make people do dangerous, bad things. The military. Margaret 44:18 Yeah, they're probably pretty good at getting people to conquer phobias. Yep. Smokey 44:21 They have a great sense of belonging. They have a great sense of pulling in internal resilient, group resilient, connecting to meaning even when it's absolutely meaningless what you're doing. It's all the dark side of what we're talking about, but it's quite effective and it literally wins wars. Margaret 44:47 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you have this whole... Smokey 44:50 Literally it changes history. And so, the good news is, we can kind of reclaim that for what I think it was originally purposed to do, which is to protect us from the traumas that we had to go through in our evolutionary existence. So we couldn't afford to have a whole bunch of us chronically disabled. Meaning unable to function, you know, they've just taken it and, and bent it a little bit, and learned very deeply about it, how to how to use it for the things that really cause, you know, physical death and injury. And, and, you know, obviously, they're not perfect, you have a lot of trauma, but not, not as much as you would expect for what they do. And every year they get better and better. Margaret 45:51 Hooray. Smokey 45:53 We have to get on top of our game. Margaret 45:56 Yeah. Smokey 45:57 And get people not to do what they do. I'm not suggesting reading...well maybe reading military, but not...you can't use those tools to make people truly free and resilient. Margaret 46:17 Yeah. Smokey 46:18 In the healthy kind of way. Yeah. Margaret 46:22 Okay, so in our three things, there's the holistic, prepared resiliency thing, then there's the immediate, the bad thing is happening first aid. Should we talk about what to do when the thing has, when you have the like, the injury, the mental injury of the trauma? Smokey 46:42 Like with most injuries, it's rehab, right? Margaret 46:45 Yeah. No, no, you just keep doing the thing, and then hope it fixes itself. [laughs] Smokey 46:53 My approach to most medical oddities that happen as I get older, it's like, "It'll fix itself, this tooth will grow back, right? The pain will go away, right?" Yeah, just like physical rehab, it does require two important aspects for all physical, what we think of when someone says I have to go to rehab, physical rehab, not not alcohol rehab, or psych rehab, is that there's two things that are happening. One, is a understanding, a deep understanding of the injury, often not by the person, but by the physical therapist. Right? That if they know, okay, this is torn meniscus, or this is this and I, okay, so I understand the anatomy, I understand the surgery that happened. Okay. And then the second is, short term, not lifelong therapy, not lifelong this or that. Short term techniques to usually strengthen muscles and other joints and things around the injury. Okay. And that's what, what I would call good recovery after you already have the injury. It's not after you've had the traumatic experience, because traumatic experience doesn't necessarily cause a chronic injury, and we're trying to reduce the number of chronic injuries, but chronic injuries are going to happen. chronic injuries already exist today. A lot of the people we know are walking around with chronic injuries that are impacting their ability to do what they want to do and what in my opinion, we need them to do, because there's so much change that needs to happen. We need everybody as much as possible to be working at their ability. So wherever we can fix injury, we should. So so one is where do I get an understanding of how this injury impacts my life? And I think different cognitive psychology, I think CBT, DBT, these things are very, very good in general. Margaret 49:22 I know what those are, but can you explain. Smokey 49:22 Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. These all come out of cognitive psychology from the 50s. Our techniques, but most therapists use versions of this anyway. So just going to therapy, what it is doing initially, is trying to, like the physical therapist, tell you, "This is the injury you have. This is why it's causing you to limp, or why you have weakness in your arm and wrist. And what we're going to do is we're going to give you some techniques to build up, usually the muscles, or whatever else needs to be built up around it so that you will be able to get more use out of your hand." And that is what we need to do with people that have this chronic injury. So, one, is you need to find out how the injury is impacting. So, I'm drinking more, I'm getting angry more, or I'm having trouble making relationships, or I'm having, and there's a series of, you know, 50 year old techniques to really kind of get down and see, okay, this injury is causing these things, that's how it's impacting me, and I don't want to drink more, or I want to be able to sleep better, or I want to be able to focus, or I want to be able to have meaningful relationship with my partner or my children or whatever, whatever that is, right? And then there are techniques, and they're developing new techniques, all the time, there's like EMDR, which is an eye thing that I don't fully understand. There DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy, has a lot of techniques that you kind of practice in groups. As you know, we have mutual aid cell therapy, MAST, which is also a group where you're sharing techniques to build up these different things and resilience. So, community, and meaning, and all those...reframing all those kinds of things. So, but they shouldn't, despite the length of the injury, how long you've been injured, how long you've been limping, and how much it's affected other parts of your psychic body in a way. These are things that still should be able to be remediated relatively quickly. Smokey 49:31 That's exciting. Yeah. Smokey 50:10 But this is not a lifelong thing. Now, that doesn't mean, if you're traumatized as a child for example, it's sort of like if you've completely shattered your wrist bone, and they've put in pins and things like that, that wrist, may never have the flexibility, it did, the actual wrist bone, you know, the bones in the wrist. But by building muscles, and other things around it, you could then theoretically have full flexibility that you had before, right? But it's not the actual wrist bone, but that that injury is still there. You've built up...Sometimes it's called strength-based approach or model where you're building up other strengths, you have to relieve the impact that that injury, so like, a common thing with with trauma is trust. My trust is very damaged. My ability to trust others, or trust certain environments, or maybe trust myself, right, is completely damaged. So if, if my...and that may never fully heal, that's like my shattered wrist bone. So then, by building up, let's say, I don't trust myself, I did something, really fucked up myself, you know, psychologically, traumatically, but by building up trust in others, and then in the environment, or other things, that can mediate that damage or vice versa. Margaret 53:53 You mean vice versa, like if you? Smokey 53:59 Like, if my problem is a trust of others, or trust with strangers, or trust with friends, you know, I've been betrayed in a really traumatic way by my mother, or my father or uncle or something like that then, you know, building up my friendships to a really strong degree will reduce and eventually eliminate, hopefully erase the impact of that injury on the rest of my life. I'm not doomed to have dysfunctional relationships, lack of sleep, alcoholism or whatever are the symptoms of that traumatic event, that chronic traumatic event. Margaret 54:54 Okay, so my next question is, and it's sort of a leading question, you mentioned MAST earlier and I kind of want to ask, like, do we need specialists for all of this? Do we have people who both generalize and specialize in this kind of thing? Are there ways that, you know, we as a community can, like, get better at most of this stuff while then some of it like, you know, obviously people specialize in and this remains useful? Like... Smokey 55:22 You need. I wouldn't say...You need, you do need specialists, not for their knowledge, per se so much as they're there for people that the injury has gone on so long that the resiliency, all those other things, they don't have a social network, they haven't had time, because the damage happened so early to build up those reserves, that that person in the front row, the front row, the seats are empty. That is, it's really great we live...Now, in other cultures, the specialists were probably shamans, religious people, mentors, things like that, that said, "Okay, my role is to," all therapy is self therapy. That was Carl Rogers, he was quite correct about that. The specialist you're talking about are the kind of stand in for people who don't have people to do that. I would argue all real therapy is probably community therapy. It's relational. So if you have friends, if you have community, if you have a place, or places you find belonging, then theoretically, no, I don't think you need....I think those groups, and I think most specialists would agree to actually, those groups, if they're doing this can actually do a much better job for that individual. They know that individual and there's a natural affinity. And there there are other non specifically therapeutic benefits for engaging in re engaging in these things that have nothing to do with the injury that are just healthy, and good to you. So sort of like taking Ensure, Ensure will keep you alive when you're you've had some surgery, you've had some really bad injury, or if you need saline solution, right? But we're not suggesting people walk around with saline bags. There are better ways to get that, more natural ways to get that. I'm not talking alternative, psychiatric or, you know, take herbs instead of psychiatric medication. But there are better ways to do that. And I think, but I'm glad we have saline. Margaret 58:08 Yeah, Smokey 58:08 I think it saves a lot of people's lives. But, we would never give up the other ways to get nutrients because of other benefits to it. You know, sharing a meal with people is also a really good thing. Margaret 58:21 And then even like from a, you know, the advantages of community, etc. I'm guessing it's not something that's like magically imbued in community. It's like can be something that communities need to actually learn these skills and develop like, I mean, there's a reason that well, you know, I guess I'm reasonably open about this. I used to have like fairly paralyzing panic attacks, and then it started generalizing. And then, you know, a very good cognitive behavioral therapist gave me the tools with which to start addressing that. And that wasn't something I was getting from....I didn't get it from my community in the end, but I got it from a specific person in the community, rather than like, everyone already knows this or something. Smokey 59:03 Well, I think what we're doing right here is, is....I mean, people don't know. So they read....People were trying to help you from your community. Undoubtedly, with the right. intentions, and the right motives, but without the information on what actually works. Margaret 59:27 Yep. Smokey 59:28 And that's all that was happening there. Margaret 59:30 Yeah, totally. Smokey 59:31 So, it's really, you know, as cliche as it sound. It's really about just giving people some basic tools that we already had at one time. Margaret 59:44 Yeah. Smokey 59:45 Forgot, became specialized. So you know, I'm throwing around CBT, DBT, EMDR. None of that people can keep in their head. They will....The audience listening today are not going to remember all those things. And nor do they have to. But they have to know that, you know, reconnecting to the horse, but not telling people to get back on the horse, that kind of tough love kind of thing isn't going to work, but neither is the self care, take a bubble bath... Margaret 1:00:19 Never see a horse again, run from a horse. Smokey 1:00:21 Never see a horse, again, we're not even going to talk about horses, let's go do something else, isn't going to work either. And I think once we...you know, it's not brain science...Though it is. [laughs] It is pretty, you know, these are, and you look at how religions do this, you know, you look at how the military does this, you look at how like, fascists do this, you know, all sorts of groups, communities can do this fairly effectively. And it doesn't cost money. It's not expensive. You don't have to be highly educated or read all the science to be able to do that. And people naturally try, but I think a lot of the self help kind of gets in the way. And some people think they know. "Okay, well, this is what needs to happen, because I saw on Oprah." That kind of thing. " Margaret 1:01:26 Yeah, Well, I mean, actually, that's one of the main takeaways that's coming from me is I've been, I've been thinking a lot about my own mental health first aid on a fairly individual basis, right? You know, even though it was community, that helped me find the means by which to pull myself out of a very bad mental space in that I was in for a lot of years. But I still, in the end was kind of viewing it as, like, "Ah, someone else gave me the tools. And now it's on me." It's like this individual responsibility to take care of myself. And, and so that's like, one of the things that I'm taking as a takeaway from this is learning to be inter-reliant. Smokey 1:02:06 There isn't enough research on it, again, because of our individualistic nature, and probably because of variables. But there's certainly tons of anecdotal evidence, and having done this for a long time talking to people and how the place I work is particularly set up, helping others is a really great way to help yourself. Margaret 1:02:30 Yeah. Smokey 1:02:31 it really works. It's very, I mean, obviously, in the Greeks, you know, you have the 'wounded healer,' kind of concept. Many indigenous traditions have said this much better than the Western. And I believe they have...and they needed to, but they had a much better kind of understanding of these things that we're we're talking about. You know, it. So, where people can...and I've heard this podcast, your podcast too, talking about this ability to be, you know, have self efficacy. But it's more than self efficacy. It's really helping others. Margaret 1:03:22 Yeah. Smokey 1:03:23 And that, that is really powerful. And there's not enough research on that. And I think that's why support groups, I think that's why, you know, AA, despite all its problems, has spread all over the world and has been around for, you know, 75 years, and is not going to go away anytime soon. Despite some obvious problems, is there's that there's that... they hit upon that they they re discovered something that we always kind of knew. Margaret 1:03:59 Yeah. Okay, well, we're coming out of time. We're running out of time. Are there any last thoughts, things that I should have asked you? I mean, there's a ton we can talk about this, and I'll probably try and have you on to talk about more specifics in the near future. But, is there anything anything I'm missing? Smokey 1:04:15 No, I think I think just re emphasizing the end piece that you know, for people that have resources, communities, meaning, social network, you know, that is worth investing your time and your energy into because that's going to build your...if you want to get psychologically strong, that is the easiest and the best investment, Put down the self help book. Call your friend. You know, don't search Google for the symptoms of this, that, or the other thing. Connect to what's important to you. And then lastly, try to help others or help the world in some way. And those are going to be profound and effective ways to build long lasting resilience as an individual. As a community, we should design our communities around that. Margaret 1:05:35 Yeah. All right. Well, that seems like a good thing to end on. Do you have anything that you want to plug like, I don't know books about mutual aid self therapy or anything like that? Smokey 1:05:46 I want to plug community. That's all I want to plug. Margaret 1:05:50 Cool. All right. Well, it's nice talking to you, and I'll talk to you soon. Smokey 1:05:54 Yep. Margaret 1:06:00 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please tell people about it. Actually, I mean, honestly, if you enjoyed this episode, in particular, like think about it, and think about reaching out to people, and who needs to be reached out to and who you need to reach out to, and how to build stronger communities. But if you want to support this podcast, you can tell people about it. And you can tell the internet about it. And you can tell the algorithms about it. But, you can also tell people about it in person. And you can also support it by supporting the, by supporting Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness, which is the people who produce this podcast. It's an anarchist publishing collective that I'm part of, and you can support it on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. 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Episode Notes Episode Summary For this This Month in the Apocalypse episode Brooke, Margaret, and Casandra all researched different topics and discuss them. Margaret talks about climate collapse, droughts, floods, wildfires, the cost of wheat, and the dangers of rising humidity for wet bulb temperatures. Casandra talks about Monkey Pox, rises in other viral and vector borne illness, and discovers why rain might actually be a bad thing for your food. Brooke talks about student loan forgiveness and things you, brave listener, might not be aware you are forgiven for. Everyone attempts to get us sponsored by 'Big' Rain Barrel. If you're out there 'Big' Rain Barrel. Please sponsor us. Host Info Casandra can be found on Twitter @hey_casandra or Instagram @House.Of.Hands. Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Brooke is just great and can be found at Strangers helping up keep our finances intact and on Twitter @ogemakweBrooke Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Next Episode Come out Friday, September 23rd, and every two weeks there after. Might be about thru-hiking, Parenting, or Archiving. Transript An easier to read version is available on our website TangledWilderness.org. Margaret 00:16 Hello, and welcome to Live Like The World Is Dying, your podcasts for what feels like the end times. I'm one of your hosts, Margaret killjoy. I have Brooke and Casandra with me as well as cohosts today, because today, you will be very excited to know that the world's still ending...that we are doing our second monthly This Month in the Apocalypse and we're going to be talking about basically the last month and the I guess that's in the name. Okay. So, Brooke, Casandra, do you want to introduce yourselves? Possibly with Brooke going first. Casandra 00:52 Your name was first. Brooke 00:53 Yeah. Okay, alphabetically. Hi, everybody, it's Brooke Jackson again, coming to you live? Oh, wait, no, this will be recorded by the time you hear it. From the sunny lands of the Willamette Valley in Oregon. Casandra Johns 01:11 We're all in the Willamette Valley right now. Margaret 01:14 It's true. Casandra 01:15 It's true. This is Casandra. That's me. Margaret 01:19 Okay, and so this will be a very short episode, because actually, nothing bad has happened in the world, certainly not nything that feels end times ish, nothing out of the ordinary. I'm under the impression we have reversed most of the major...I mean, I think Biden passed a bill. So, I'm pretty sure climate change is over. And COVID is over. I learned that just the other day walking into a place where I thought everyone would be wearing masks, but it's over. So that's cool. Or, alternatively, let's talk about how China's in the worst heatwave in human history...in recorded history. We're gonna cut it up into segments. And I'm gonna go first with my segment. Casandra Johns 02:06 Do we need to say "Du duh duh duhh, Channel Zero? As part of the intro? Brooke 02:13 Do a Jingle? Margaret 02:16 Yes. Okay. You want to do it? Brooke 02:20 She just did. Casandra 02:21 Oh, yeah, I did. Duh duh duh duh! Margaret 03:19 Okay, and we're back. Okay, so, China...70 Day heatwave as of several days ago, now. And by the time you all are hearing this, I believe we're recording this about five days before this episode comes out. So, who knows what will have happened? There has been a lot of heat waves and floods all over the world this summer. And so China's in the middle of a 70 day heatwave. The drought has reduced hydroelectric output, which huge areas were reliant on the electricity because the water levels are so far down. And of course the electricity is what powers the AC. So no air conditioning is really fun as things get really hot. AC has been turned off in a lot of office buildings. It's cut power to tons of industry, including a bunch of car manufacturers where I'm a little bit like "Eh, whatever. Cars are bad." I mean, I drive cars so I'm kind of an asshole and hypocrite. Anyway. But also solar panel output and EV battery plants and like lots of stuff that's like being pitched as the alternative to things...y'all can feel free to cut me off too as I talk about these things. I'm just like going through my notes. And I don't know, it's breaking records all over the place by like four degrees in a lot of places. It's four degrees Fahrenheit. Brooke 04:44 What is heatwave in this context? Like are they having like, you know, 115 degree temperatures, are they just? Margaret 04:53 I mean, so. I mean, I believe in localized places. It's getting like crazy hot but what's interesting about this is that it's it's more the length of it and the abnormality to its usual that is, like, it's a lot of this stuff is like 106 degrees Fahrenheit and things like that. You know, things that are very not nice, but are...well, human survivable. Although we should probably at some point talk about wet bulb temperatures and how dry places are survivable at substantially higher temperatures than humid places. But yeah, so it's it's, it's an it's an abnormality causing problems as far as I understand, rather than like, just specifically, if you step outside, you will be scorched by the heatray that is the sun. It's affecting over a billion people, which is a lot of people. The area of the heatwave is 530,000 square miles, which for context is Texas, Colorado and California combined. Casandra Johns 05:57 Does that overlap with the area...like, isn't there like a massive wildfire happening in China right now? Margaret 06:04 I think you know, more about the wildfires than I do. Casandra Johns 06:07 I don't know what region it was in. Margaret 06:09 Okay. Casandra 06:09 I guess I'm curious. Of course, they're related because everything climate-y is related, ultimately. Margaret 06:16 Yeah. Casandra 06:19 Yeah, I'm curious how closely they're tied together. But, if you don't know, and I don't know, that's fine. Because there's also a massive wildfire. And that sucks. Margaret 06:27 Yeah. There's a massive wildfire. Brooke 06:31 Is that a continuous area, Margaret? That five? Whatever, something miles? Margaret 06:37 You all are exceeding my level of research that I did, because I did research about the entire world. So I don't know. Brooke 06:44 Okay, fair. Casandra 06:45 Oh, yeah. You have more. This is just like heat waves everywhere. Okay. Margaret 06:48 Yeah. Okay. And also joining us today on playing the squeaky toy in the background is Rintrah, the best dog in the world. Brooke 06:59 Can confirm. Margaret 07:00 The best dog in the world. No complaints? Okay. Yeah, I, you know, there's a lot more I don't know about this, right? But this was one that I haven't even seen really cropping up much in the media at all. And actually, one of the things that's sort of interesting and terrible and telling is that a lot of the information that I've been able to find about climate change disasters comes from the business media, like, a lot of this is about how it will affect stock prices, how it will affect, you know...300 Mines are shut down right now in China, or as of you know, two days ago when I did most of the research for this recording. And so it talks more about the 300 mines that have been shut down instead of the 119,000 people who have been evacuated from their homes. And it's just, it's a real problem. There's a lot of photos of like, low reservoirs that are like 20 meters below what they're supposed to be and things like that. And, of course, to tie everything into everything else, you know, things that happen in one place don't only effect that region. The drought is fucking up their harvest, and fertilizer for export has been affected, which will probably fuck up the world's food supply, which was otherwise very stable. So, I don't think that's gonna be a problem. Casandra Johns 08:16 The world's been chaos, but at least we know, food is cheap and available. Margaret 08:20 And will stay that way. Margaret 08:22 Okay, so then the one that I'm finally starting to see more get talked about in the media, thankfully, although it's annoying, because it's only been talked about because now there's like dramatic photos. But whatever. I mean, I'm not blaming people for not paying attention to everything that's happening in the world. Pakistan is having flooding, like just absolutely massive flooding. I've read reports saying that there's a half a million people living in refugee camps. It's taken at least 1000 lives, it's fucking up food production. Over a million homes have been destroyed. A third of the country is underwater. Have y'all seen the satellite image photos? Casandra 08:22 Yep Casandra Johns 08:59 Yeah, and they're referring to it as a 'lake.' Which makes me wonder like, are they anticipating at least some portion of it to remain? Like, "And look at our new lake!" Margaret 09:10 Yeah. Casandra 09:12 I heard I heard someone else I heard someone referred to it as a 'small ocean.' Margaret 09:18 Yeah. Margaret 09:19 Yeah. And, and Pakistan is the the fifth most populous country in the world after China, India, U.S., Indonesia, I think. Yeah. And so it's like, it's a big fucking deal and a big fucking problem. And one of the other problems because capitalism solves...makes everything worse. Pakistan has taken out a $1.1 billion dollar loan from the IMF, which for anyone following at home, the IMF is a predatory lending organization called the International Monetary Fund, that actually a lot of modern leftist politics, at least in the Western world and actually a lot of the developing world kind of cut its teeth in the...during the, the turn of the millennium fighting against the IMF and the World Bank, specifically because of the stuff that they do, which is that they loan predatory. It's like a payday loan. You know, it's like a paycheck loan place, but for entire countries, they loan you $1.1 billion, and then you're going to be paying off the interest for the rest of your life as a country. And of course, a lot of what's happening right now is that developing nations as they take out these loans are therefore forced to extract more fossil fuels from their own countries, in order to pay off the interest of their loan, not even touching the principal, trapping us further and further in the cycle of what's destroying everything. So that's all really fun. Okay, then, East Africa, particularly Kenya, Somalia, and Ethiopia, are also facing prolonged drought, rising food prices. A lot of this is because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. This is projected to leave 20 million people hungry with an estimated 3 million potential deaths if aid isn't delivered, and these three countries represent 2% of the world's population, but 70% of the extreme food insecurity. And most of...about 90% of the wheat imported by East Africa comes from Russia and Ukraine, which are of course, having some issues right now. They're not famously friends. But you're thinking to yourself, "Well, I'm a wheat farmer in the US, and the high prices are good for me." They are not. Things are not good with domestic wheat production here in the United States, either, which, of course, affects large quantities of the world. Also, the US is a major grain exporter. And so this is things that affect the US do affect everyone else. And not just because we're the center of Empire. Drought is affecting wheat fields in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska. Kansas is estimating a 30% drop in their harvest. Oklahoma is estimating a 50% drop, in its harvest. And so even though you have these, like record high prices for wheat, farmers are expecting to lose money, because they're not able to grow enough. You look like you have a question. Brooke 09:19 Oh wow. Casandra Johns 12:24 And yeah, so we talked about this a little bit the other day, I think, like I'm not sure if people realize what it means when the wheat crop is devastated. You know, it's not just like, "Maybe I can't eat bread." Brooke 12:43 There's more to it than that? Casandra Johns 12:45 Right! I mean, the next thing I think of is like, who eats the wheat? Not just humans. You know, like, I can't eat wheat, but like, I eat beef. Margaret 12:58 Yeah. Casandra 12:58 And chicken. Margaret 13:00 Yeah. Brooke 13:00 Was does that matter, Casandra? Casandra 13:03 Maybe they eat wheat. Just the like domino effect. Margaret 13:07 Yeah. Casandra 13:08 Yeah. When we talk about rising food prices and rising fuel prices, and how those are connected to like rising everything prices. Margaret 13:15 Yeah. And book prices most famously. Brooke 13:16 Okay, well, like, I have a solution. Casandra 13:19 Okay, what's your solution? Is it Communism? Brooke 13:19 Cause, we're all about solutions here. Well, you started talking about Pakistan being all flooded like the country's a giant lake. And then you said drought in the US and I'm like, "Let's just pick up some water over there and just put it over here." And then there won't be a drought or flood. Margaret 13:36 So what's so great and I'm gonna get to in a moment is that drought and flood are entirely related. I think you knew this, and we're just setting me up to say this, but they're absolutely related. The more drought you have, the worse flooding you have, which of course, like boggles my immediate science, right? My non science brain is like, "But water is the opposite of drought," you know, and we're gonna get to them second. Okay, so also in the US, Lake Mead is drying up. It's the largest reservoir in the United States, it provides water to 25 million people. It's possible that soon it won't have enough water to feed the Hoover Dam, which provides electricity to about a million people. And the one upside of all of this drought..this is really selfish. It's kind of like interesting the stuff they keep finding in the water. They keep find... Margaret 14:26 Yeah. They're like finding like some guys like "Oh, look a barrel," and he like pops open some barrel from the 1920s. And just like a dead guy with a bullet in his skull, and they're like, "Oh, the mafia really did just drop people off in barrels," which led me to the conclusion that apparently leaving dead bodies in large body in large bodies of water is more effective of a strategy than I've been led to believe. Casandra 14:27 Well, they haven't they also...hasn't also revealed like Nazi...like sunken Nazi ships and shit. And then they're like the.... Casandra 14:27 Crime? Margaret 15:01 Yeah, not in Lake Mead, though. Casandra Johns 15:04 Right. But then..No, but I'm just saying like everywhere it's revealing interesting things like in Europe the...what are the stones called? Margaret 15:12 The Hunger Stones. Casandra 15:13 Hunger Stones? Margaret 15:15 Yeah. Casandra 15:15 So apparently, what's the context for this? Previously, in history when there were massive droughts and like rivers dwindled down to nothing, people made carvings in the stones at particular water levels with these like really epic, maybe Margaret's looking at some examples, of these really epic miserable statements about like, "Fear ye, fear ye, if the water gets this low..." Margaret 15:40 You're dead. Casandra 15:40 Yeah, but people are seeing those now, which is terrifying and interesting. Margaret 15:47 Yeah. Terrified and interesting is a good way to describe the current epoch. Brooke 15:52 Cool. That's the silverling, the mud caked lining. Brooke 15:52 Yeah. There was. It's not happening right at this moment. But here locally, when the Detroit reservoir got real low a couple of years ago, there was a town that had been flooded when they built the dam there and it was low enough that like, remnants of this town were visible, including like an old wagon, like covered wagon base kind of wagon and other cool artifacts. Brooke 16:27 See some history before we all die. Margaret 16:30 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Brooke 16:31 Great. Margaret 16:32 So, in California, heat and drought are also combining as power usages reaches a five year high power use, because people are running more and more air conditions. I didn't quite realize exactly how...I don't I don't have a percentage in front of me...But like, air conditioning is a really, really big use of electricity. And so in California, the grid is estimated...is expected to become unstable, although that might have already happened. It was supposed to happen like this week. So that might happen by the time y'all hear this. Or maybe it didn't happen. And I'm here I am chicken littling, all day long. And, of course, Jackson, Mississippi flooding. The capital of Mississippi, which is primarily black city has left 150,000 people without drinking water. Sooo... Brooke 17:18 I haven't heard about this at all? Margaret 17:20 Oh, yeah. And there's some mutual aid groups on the ground. Cooperation. Jackson is a long standing organization that works to sort of build dual power and do all kinds of awesome stuff in terms of cooperative economics and things like that. And they are doing a lot of mutual aid work. I believe there's also a group and maybe this is actually not maybe they're not directly related. I'm not sure there's a group called Hillbillies Helping Hillbillies that I've at least seen talk a lot about this issue. I don't know if they do most of their work down there or if they've been more focused on the Tennessee floods. Casandra Johns 17:54 I know Mutual Aid Disaster Relief is also doing work there. Margaret 17:59 Yeah. So "Why does all this stuff happen, Margaret?" you might ask. Brooke 18:07 Why does all this stuff happen, Margaret? Margaret 18:09 Well, I am an expert named Jennifer Francis, a senior scientist at the Woodward Climate Research Center in Falmouth, Massachusetts, and my quote, that is definitely me is, "As the air and oceans warm under a thicker blanket of greenhouse gases, more water vapor evaporates into the air providing more moisture to fuel thunderstorms, hurricanes, nor'easters and monsoons." Basically, as the temperature rise of the Earth, the warmer atmosphere can hold more water vapor, every degree of...every increase of one degree Celsius can boost the capacity for holding water vapor by about 7%. So that's fun. And also as things get more humid, you're like, "Okay, well, that's cool. It's like more tropical and stuff, right?" Higher humidity is substantially more dangerous, like heat and humidity is what kills people, because of the way that our bodies thermo regulate basically, like, if you're at 100% humidity, and the temperature goes above your body temperature, you die. Not like instantly, right? But your body loses its ability to thermo regulate. And so that is the wet bulb temperature is the temperature at 100% humidity, and that can be calculated out from there. So, for example, 105 degrees Fahrenheit at 5%. humidity is not that bad. It's like 61 degrees wet bulb, right? You're not in danger, I mean, you can be in danger zone from other parts of it, you need to get in shade, right? But like, whereas 105 degrees at 95% humidity is 103 degrees wet bulb. So, and for context, you know, it's like I used to never really think about the level of humidity that I lived in until I moved to the South and I had to worry about mold and all kinds of other shit. But, much of the South, and San Francisco and also I believe much of Alaska sit at around 80 to 90% humidity, whereas the Southwest might be at around 30% humidity. So, when you hear about temperatures at different levels in different parts of the country, the humidity that they're facing, like matters in terms of how catastrophic this type of thing is likely to be. And then the "What to do about it section!" Don't worry, we're almost done with the terrible climate shit part. Casandra Johns 20:20 I feel like earlier, you mentioned something about the relationship between flooding and drought. I was hoping you were gonna circle back to that. Margaret 20:28 Okay. Oh, yeah. So. So basically, the...some atmosphere shit I only half understand. But, as everything gets hotter, more of the air like sits...and more of the water sits in the air and that...it just fucks everything up. So, like, the rain falls off fucked up. I, I kind of like, wrap my head around it. And then I, it unraveled, you ever, like study things that are completely outside your thing? And then you like, you get your takeaway, and then the details like dissolve? That's what happened to me while I was researching this? Casandra Johns 21:00 No, that's I didn't realize it had I, I thought my assumption was it was going to be that, you know, you can look up videos of this where like, people put a cup of water upside down on like dry soil, you know, partially damp soil and like saturated wet soil. And the cup of water immediately, like seeps into the ground in the saturated soil, but it takes a really long time for the dry soil to absorb the water. Margaret 21:25 Yeah. Casandra 21:25 And so my assumption was like, "Oh, if there's a drought and the soil is bone dry, it can't absorb moisture very effectively." Margaret 21:33 Yeah. Casandra 21:33 Which is counterintuitive, maybe? But...then it floods. Margaret 21:36 I think that is a big part of it. Yeah. Casandra 21:38 Okay. Margaret 21:39 And then also, I was even just like...go ahead. Brooke 21:43 I was thinking about how matter can't be created or destroyed. And so the water still exist somewhere, even though it got sucked up from the dry places. And that might be why it ended up flooding in other places because the water still exists. Margaret 21:58 Well, a lot of places it's literally the same place will have droughts and floods. I think Texas was dealing with that I think it was Dallas, was having a record drought and might still be in a record drought and then had like, really fuck off flooding. I think it was about a week or two ago. That was like destroying everything. And, you know, because if the rain patterns are just completely different than Yeah, what the ground is used to absorbing and like, and which ties into what to do about it. A lot of what to do about it needs to happen at the scale that we're not necessarily going to talk about right now. But, rainwater catchment and drought areas is super important. And, you know, I was looking it up because there's this like. I'd always been sort of told that rainwater catchment like fucks up the water system of that area, you know, because Colorado has, they have re-legalized it a little bit in 2016. But it's been illegal for a very long time to catch rainwater in Colorado because they're like, "Oh, it's so dry here. We need all the groundwater." That was what I had always got told. The real reason's that Colorado made rainwater catchment illegal have a lot more to do with...capitalism, and the way that water rights are, you're basically stealing from people in entirely different areas if you catch the rainwater at the source or whatever. And, it it can affect things,right, if you like take water that could otherwise have ended up groundwater, but you're mostly it's mostly like shit that would have run off anyway. And so rainwater catchment increasingly in a lot of places, I believe Arizona has like new laws that like require new buildings to include rainwater catchment. There's entire countries who I didn't write down the names of that require rainwater catchment in all new buildings, especially island nations, I'm under the impression and so rainwater catchment is cool. And then, Arizona you can get rebates if you install rainwater catchment. In Colorado, it is now legal again for like home level and there's like all these like rules and shit. And you're, you're only allowed to store two barrels for a total of 110 gallons and you can only do it at like, home, or whatever. I'm sure there's ways that people could imagine catching rain water without getting caught. The CDC points out that rainwater is generally not safe to drink without treatment. You can use it to water non food plants without treatment. I say this, I showered with rainwater for the past three years and don't give a shit. But, maybe I shouldn't recommend that to other people. But, also filtering rainwater is like not the biggest deal in the world. And then... Casandra Johns 24:39 Also like, the idea of only using it on non food plants is really funny to me, because like it just rains on my plants, you know? And then I eat them. Margaret 24:51 Yeah. Brooke 24:52 You shouldn't let rain land of your plants. Margaret 24:54 You shouldn't be eating food from plants. Plants comes from stores, Casandra. Casandra Johns 24:59 Uh oh. Okay. And if they get rained on specifically then they're like poison. Margaret 25:06 Yeah, me, okay. Like, you walk out of a food store, the main place that people get food, like McDonald's, and you have your chicken nuggets, or... Casandra 25:14 And then they get rained on? Margaret 25:16 You wouldn't want to eat them now, would you? Casandra 25:18 Okay, I see what you mean. Margaret 25:20 Yeah, no, I like that part about the like non food plants or whatever is like to me is like that's what the CDC says. The CDC has lost a lot of...I don't trust it as much as I might have used to. Casandra 25:36 Interesting segue to... Margaret 25:39 Yeah. Well, there is one more part though that I believe one have you added to the notes about soil remediation and dry gardening? I'm wondering if you want to talk about some of that. Brooke 25:52 That has to be Casandra, cause it wasn't me. Casandra Johns 25:54 Oh, I mean, that was me thinking about like, how the what I was saying before how bone dry soil...the best place to store water is in the soil. Right? Margaret 26:04 Yeah. Casandra 26:06 Just like the best place to store nitrogen is in the soil. But, you know, if I lived in a super dry area, and this is only so effective for like the home gardener, this like ideally would happen on a large scale. But, if I lived in a really dry area, I'd be working really hard to like improve my soil health so that it can store more water. So that things like dry gardening are possible. So I can you know, have food even in a drought. Margaret 26:32 What is dry gardening? Casandra Johns 26:36 Dry gardening is gardening with little to no, like, manually added water. Margaret 26:43 Is that where you like mulch the shit out of it all to prevent evaporation? Casandra Johns 26:46 Yeah, you can do it that way. You can also...there. There's a...well, it's on my bookshelf, so I'm not gonna mention it because I can't remember the title right now. But yeah, mulching, spacing your plants a lot farther out, making sure that your soil can store water so that if you know we live, where I live, it rains a lot in the spring. And if the plants I plant have a room, and the soil is fluffy enough that they can send the roots really deep, then in the summer, when it's dry, they can still access the water that's stored in the soil. Does that make sense? Margaret 27:19 Cool, and then they grow chicken nuggets? Casandra 27:22 Yep. Margaret 27:23 Cool. Okay, so back to the clever segue that I broke about not trusting the CDC.... Casandra Johns 27:36 Yeah, yeah, I Okay. So, we realized we should probably say at least something about monkey pox. Because it's the thing that exists. My notes are titled monkey pox sucks. And... Brooke 27:52 Correct. Casandra Johns 27:53 Correct. Yeah. And I realized in researching this that I knew very little, I think I was just like, "We live in a time where there will be epidemic after epidemic," and I'm, you know, mentally overloaded on this topic. And had a lot of assumptions that were wrong. But, one interesting thing I found out is that the CDC is saying it's not transmitted....It's not airborne. Which, you know, they've kind of gone back and forth about whether masks are going to help...masks. I can't enunciate....whether masks are going to help prevent the spread. Brooke 28:37 If the mask prevents you from licking someone's open wounds, then then I say that would be helpful. Put your mask on. Casandra Johns 28:44 But, then there's there are other recommendations around like, avoiding close face to face contact with people. So that's all. I think I'm just affirming that I am also skeptical of CDC guidelines at this point, which is a bummer. Margaret 28:59 Yeah. Casandra 29:01 Anyway, do you want to hear all about monkeypox? Margaret 29:04 Yeah. Yay. Casandra 29:06 Yay. Margaret 29:06 What a fun show we make. Brooke 29:10 That's like a game, right? It's a children's game that you play. It's fun. Spread all over? Isn't it great? Casandra 29:18 No. Margaret 29:19 It's one of those games with a 1-3% death.... Okay, please continue. Brooke 29:24 That's pretty low. It's fine. Casandra Johns 29:26 Oh, my God, what a world that we live in. So apparently was discovered in 1958 in laboratory monkeys. So, you know, you can insert something here about blaming capitalism for everything. Because maybe it wouldn't have been a thing if monkeys were not in laboratories? Anyway, it's a cousin of smallpox in the first human case was recorded in 1970. When I first heard about monkey pox in May or whatever I was like, "Oh, cool and new disease." It's not new. It's been around for decades. So, it's really interesting that like, we don't have a vaccine that can quickly be rolled out. Do you want to guess why that is? Margaret 30:14 Is it Capitalsim? Brooke 30:14 I guess 'racism.' Casandra 30:15 Racism. Brooke wins with 'racism.' Brooke 30:23 Yay? Casandra 30:26 Yeah, so it was that to be uncommon in humans, but cases started increasing around 1980. And most of the cases have been documented in central and western Africa. That correct? In Africa. Margaret 30:41 Yeah, you said Nigeria is like one of the main spots of it? Casandra 30:45 For this outbreak. Margaret 30:46 Okay. Casandra 30:48 Yeah. So, and they think that one of the reasons....so there have been multiple outbreaks since it was first recorded in humans in 1970, which I didn't realize, because we don't hear about them, because mostly they've taken place in Africa. Which is just depressing. And I'll come back around to that in a minute. But, they think that that the increase in cases might be connected to the fact that it is related to smallpox. The smallpox vaccine, they think gives like, 85% that it is like, 85% effective against monkey pox. But most people don't get the smallpox vaccine anymore. Brooke 31:27 Yeah. Casandra 31:28 And I think that's related to the increase in monkey pox cases. Margaret 31:33 People don't get the smallpox vaccine anymore, because smallpox kind of went away because of vaccines? Casandra 31:40 Yeah, Brooke 31:41 No, it just stop being trendy. People were like, "That is not cool anymore. I'm not gonna take that one." Casandra Johns 31:48 Yeah, yeah. Which then is like, there's a whole tangent in here about who and how they decide a disease has been 'eradicated.' I'm doing air quotes that you can't see has been, 'eradicated.' Especially when something like monkey pox is trance was initially transmitted from animals to humans. And so, yeah, I don't know, is smallpox eradicated? I don't know. I'm not an epidemiologist. But I'm curious. So, let's see. Okay, so the current outbreak grew from one case in Massachusetts in the US, I'm talking about the US now, May 17. And at this point, you know, however many days it's been since May, there are almost 20,000 cases in the US, which is a lot of cases. Brooke 32:40 I mean, it sounds like a big number. But, also I know, there's a lot of people in the US, but also, I don't know how much cases of other things that we know about are common. So I don't have any frame of reference. Margaret 32:51 Yeah same. Casandra 32:53 Yeah. Brooke 32:54 Well, it's way smaller than Covid. Casandra Johns 32:57 Right. It is way smaller than Covid. But, you know, and it's, it's sort of like Covid, you're probably not going to die from it. But then there's the asterisk, 'unless you're immunocompromised already,' you know. So like, who are we? Who are we willing to throw under the bus for this? Brooke 33:13 So just Casandra. Casandra 33:13 Yeah, just me. Yeah. But then there's also public health experts are apparently warning that the virus is on the verge of becoming permanently entrenched here. Margaret 33:24 Cool. Casandra 33:25 So maybe 20,000 isn't, you know, a big chunk of the population, but in terms of like, a virus, it's bad news, because we don't really want it to become entrenched here, right? Brooke 33:38 Yeah, viruses, bad. Casandra 33:41 Virus equals bad. Okay. Okay, so, so there's been a lot of criticism about Biden's administration and their sluggish response to the outbreak. I read a really interesting report. I think WaPo [Washington Post] was the first place to report on this, but they said that, on August 4, US Health and Human Services officials plan to stretch the country's limited supply, or they announced, that they plan to stretch the country's limited supply of vaccines by splitting doses to cover five times as many people. This is after saying that they had plenty of doses. So, already sketchy. Yeah, cool, cool. And then the chief executive of Bavarian Nordic who's the vaccine manufacturer responded by accusing the Biden admin of breaching contract by planning to use them in this like inappropriate way by splitting the doses and then apparently threatened to cancel all future vaccine orders so that....Yeah, I'm not sure how that was resolved. Brooke 34:45 Capitalism. The other 'ism' now at play. Margaret 34:50 I was right. I was late. Casandra Johns 34:57 So the big concern for me in researching this was how it spreads, because I have a child who's about to go back to public school, so apparently animal to human transmission, it's spread by direct contact with blood, bodily fluids or cutaneous or mucosal lesions of infected animals. And then human to human transmission is close contact with respiratory secretions, which to me says airborne, right, right? Is that not what that means? Anyway, respiratory secretions, skin lesions of an infected person, or recently contaminated objects. So things like bedding, clothing, stuff like that. Um, but the CDC says it's not airborne. So, take that, as you will. I don't know. How are you gonna take that, Brooke? Brooke 35:41 Right. Well, I mean, respiratory secretions that does sound more significant than just like, you know, air droplets, like we talked about with covid, like, more moist, kind of things coming out of you, like sneezes and coughs and stuff that actually sprays more liquid matter? Casandra 36:07 So, use your imagination with that. Margaret 36:08 We could just go through and describe every act that could... Casandra 36:10 Don't spit in people's mouths. Brooke 36:14 Damn it, there goes half of my kink play. Margaret 36:18 I mean, it does seem like it's less contagious than like, because like, okay, right, like, because they said originally COVID wasn't airborne. And they weren't always wrong about that, right? But, the fact that it's been here for months, and is at 20,000 cases, is like, 'promising,' in that it seems less contagious than COVID? But that's, I guess I'm talking about like, the first or second most contagious virus that the world's ever faced. So, I guess it's a terrible benchmark to compare it to. Casandra Johns 36:49 Yeah, I think comparing everything to covid is probably not in our best interest, especially because a lot more people are comparing this to AIDS, in terms of the communities it's impacting, and how it's spreading. So it's, it's okay, let me go back to my list. Alright, so the incubation period is usually six to thirteen days, it's thought to be mainly spread through sexual activity, specifically, men who have sex with men and have multiple partners, though now they've sort of expanded that to include like queer and trans people, which is good. Not that it's spreading in queer and trans communities, but that they're changing language. So then I was like, "Well, is it an STI, right?" And I Googled "Is Monkey pox and STI? And the first two articles that came up, were: Number one, "Monkey pox is an STI and knowing that can help." And then number two is, "Monkey pox is spreading through sex, but it's not an STI." So you know, I'm not a doctor. Casandra Johns 37:02 It's not an STI. Casandra 37:29 Okay. Brooke 37:31 Because it's not it's, yeah, go ahead. Casandra Johns 37:52 But it seems to mainly be spreading through sex, probably because of the close contact involved. Margaret 38:02 Yeah, I mean, like, like, scabies is... Brooke 38:04 Yeah, like not through the sex itself. Casandra 38:06 Right. Brooke 38:07 But through the close physical contact of you know, that happens during sex. Casandra Johns 38:12 I think. I also saw a list. I think it's LA County. I was reading their like, list of eligibility criteria, and maybe risky behavior to avoid...'in void.' Would that even? Yeah, thank you. I was just trying to figure out what my made up word means. Risky behavior to avoid and they listed that, like, we're still learning about how it's transmitted, right, which is wild for a disease that's been around since the 70s. But, they listed that it could possibly be transmitted through semen. Like not solely but that could be another way that it's transmitted. Brooke 38:53 Sure, transmitted through bodily fluids, but the distinction when it when it's an STI is something that's sort of limited to being transmissible through kind of the genital region. Casandra Johns 39:10 Is that why one type of herpes is considered an STI, and the other isn't? Brooke 39:14 Yeah, so you can like can get both of them in both places because of oral sex. Casandra 39:21 Huh, that's interesting. Brooke 39:23 But yeah, technically. That's why. Casandra Johns 39:25 Thanks for knowing more about STI classification than me. I appreciate it. Brooke 39:29 Well, I fuck a lot. So I got to know these kinds of things. Casandra 39:35 All right, moving on with my notes. My next... Brooke 39:40 I just made everyone turn a scarlet blushing red color because I have non prude among this collective. Casandra Johns 39:48 I'm not blushing. I'm not prudish. I'm just Demi. Okay, so my next section is titled "Racism," which, yeah, so the virus isn't spreading in this specific outbreak of monkey pox is been spreading in Nigeria since 2017. Yet, somehow there are no clinical...there's no clinical trial data of the effectiveness of the vaccine or T pox, which is the antiviral they've developed. No human studies. I wonder why. Um, well, I as I said it's understudied because up until now, it's been isolated to central and west Africa. Yeah. What would have happened if we were vaccinating on a large scale in Nigeria? Would it have spread? Margaret 40:31 Yeah, I mean, that's like such a thing that I keep thinking about all this shit, where it's like, it's just seemed so obvious to me that, like the solutions to all the major things that we're dealing with right now, like don't make any sense in a world full of borders. You know? Being like, like, "We got ours. Fuck you," doesn't make any fucking it never made any fucking sense. But, it really doesn't make any fucking sense now, or it's like, yeah, if we had, like, I don't understand, even if I'm like a self interested, rich white American. I don't understand how I can be like, "Oh, new new disease just dropped and it's in another country." Let's go get rid of it in another country. That makes sense from...it's cheaper than building spaceships to Mars. Brooke 41:16 I think it's people still just not fundamentally understanding how deeply integrated we are now as a global society. Yeah. I mean, we shouldn't have figured especially in the last couple of years, if you haven't figured it out before, then like, you should understand that now. I feel like... Margaret 41:32 Yeah, acids been around for a long time. Casandra 41:39 Don't understand the reference? Margaret 41:43 Just like, oh, no, like, we're all one consciousness? Whatever. Casandra 41:52 Okay, my next subsection of notes is titled "Homophobia." Margaret 41:55 Hurray. Casandra 41:56 This is...I'm announcing these by way of a content warning. So yeah, so I read a few different, you know, I've seen like on Twitter and stuff, people talking about how homophobia relates to the way the language the government has been using and media outlets have been using around monkeypox, and also the government response to it and didn't fully understand that other than that it's mainly spreading in queer networks right now. But, I read an article that talked about how the homophobia they were seeing was mainly around the language that gay sex is quote, unquote, 'driving' the epidemic. Yeah, and just like really sex negative advice around how to keep from getting monkey pox. But, in reality, the drivers of the epidemic are the structures globally that have led to like vaccines and tests and treatments all existing for this virus, but not being accessible. Margaret 42:57 Yeah. Casandra 42:58 Yeah, I don't know if y'all have read any of the first person accounts of people trying to find access even to a test. Like I read an account of someone who went to their doctor was like, "I think a monkey pox." and the doctor, like, had to jump through all of these hoops just to access a test Margaret 43:14 Fucking hell. Margaret 43:16 So that's cool. Let's see, before I talk about the 'What we can do,' I want to circle back to climate change really quickly. Because, I think that in my brain, I know that epidemics and climate change are related, but I hadn't thought much about how in the particular mechanisms, but I read an interview that, that interested in me a lot. And they talked about how climate change is driving the risk of infectious diseases. I saw a report that 58% of the 375 infectious diseases they examined, have...this is a quote, "have been at some point aggravated by 'climatic hazards.'" So that's cool. Brooke 44:03 I...but how? I don't understand the connection. Casandra 44:06 Yeah. So. So one way is that climate change, they were talking about how it brings humans closer to animals, not in the sense that like "We are closer to nature," but just like, as we encroach on... Brooke 44:17 oh, sure. Casandra 44:20 And so, animal to human transmission is a thing. But, also if we're talking about like climate change and natural disasters, people get very sick of diseases and die after natural disasters. So, I'm sure that's part of what they mean by 'aggravated,' being 'aggravated by climatic hazards.' Warmer temperatures also attract insects and carriers of disease to parts of the world that they didn't used to exist in. Margaret. I feel like you were talking about...we were talking the other night and you mentioned like...no was it you? Maybe I was reading something? I've been reading too much lately. I was reading about a type of mosquito that is like, more likely to carry things like Dengue fever, and is now in the US, is now in the northern hemisphere. And. Margaret 45:08 Oh, that's exciting. Casandra 45:10 Yeah, and it has to do with warmer water temperatures where they can hatch their eggs and also with capitalism, because apparently they were transported here in 'tires.' Margaret 45:22 Huh? Casandra 45:23 Like when tires sit, you know outside in a wash, tje water pools? Yeah. Wild. Margaret 45:33 Which ties back to rain catchment and how don't do lazy rain catchment where you just put your downspout into the barrel, you should filter it, and you should prevent mosquitoes from breeding in there. Also algae, and all kinds of other stuff. Casandra 45:47 Yeah, it's true. Brooke 45:49 So today's episode is brought to you by capitalism and racism. Margaret 45:54 And I was thinking rain barrels. But Sure. Brooke 45:59 Well, the reason we have to talk about these horrible things is the 'isms.' Margaret 46:04 Right? Where as I was thinking about sponsors, Big Rain Barrel. The big sponsor of the show. Brooke 46:11 That'd be a great sponsor. I hope we get a free barrel. Casandra 46:14 Yeah. Brooke 46:14 Free barrel with every Ep [episode] Margaret 46:16 Yeah. I want to be able to talk about them personally. So, please contact us through the site. The advertisers. I want the I want Big Rain Barrel to...I just want a rain barrel. That's all. Please continue. Casandra 46:31 So in 2022, we're still experiencing the COVID outbreak, right? And now my monkey pox. And also polio. Margaret 46:40 Cool. Casandra 46:42 Yeah. Yeah, yes. Polio. Someone Someone got polio. For the second time since they declared polio like a...they don't use the word eradicated. But they were basically like, "Humans don't get this anymore." But two have since then. One was this summer. So that's...okay. Brooke 47:06 That's neat. Casandra 47:07 Yeah, what can we do about it? We can wash our hands a lot. I'm still gonna wear a mask, even though the CDC says it's not airborne, because I don't understand the difference. And also Covid's still a thing. We can research testing and vaccination in our areas, because it seems to be vastly different in different cities and counties and really confusing. So you can do the research ahead of time and share it through your network so people know where to access information and help. You can also get vaccinated if you qualify. However, I let's see, I looked at a few different counties and their eligibility criteria. And they all seem to have a few things in common. You have to be gay or bisexual men, or a transgender person who has had either 1) Multiple or anonymous sex partners in the last 14 days or 2) Skin to skin, skin to skin or intimate contact with people at large venues or events in the last 14 days. And then they're also starting to include people of any gender or sexual orientation who have engaged in commercial or [cuts out], so sex workers in the last 14 days. So yeah, if any of those are you, and you have a vaccination place near you, why not get it? Margaret 48:32 Because Bill Gates will be able to track all the sex you have? Brooke 48:38 Yeah, Casandra 48:39 The reason I agreed to research monkey pox for this episode is because, like I said, my kids about to go back to school. And I was really nervous. And I'm feeling a little bit less nervous for the moment about school because of the cases documented in children so far areextremely low. So, that's some good news for all of the other parents out there. Margaret 49:02 And the children listening Casandra 49:05 For any of the children listening. Margaret 49:06 It just occurred to me that children might listen to this podcast. I'm so sorry, children, about the world. Not about the cussing. I'm sorry about the world. Casandra 49:18 Speaking of school, Brooke 49:20 Hey, yo, student loan forgiveness that's been in the news. Right? And as the person with the background in economics, I feel like I have to talk about that. So, student loans, I'm fairly certain that of the two of you one of you has student loans and one of you does not. And I'm I'm curious how each of you feel about student loan forgiveness without...you can go ahead and not reveal which one of you it is and isn't for the moment. Just tell me if you like it? Is it good? Or bad? Casandra 49:56 Fucking-tastic I mean, not this version, this version is just like so. So, but like, should they forgive all of our student loans? Fuck yes, they should. Margaret 50:04 I agree. Brooke 50:05 Casandra says yes. Oh, and Margaret agrees Wait, but only one of you has student loans? Margaret 50:11 So, I don't have student loans. And...I can't imagine, I can't imagine anyone who doesn't have student loans giving a shit. Like I just like, I struggle so hard. Like, every time someone's like, "They did this with our taxpayer money," and I'm like, "Motherfucker, they invaded half the world with our tax money." Like... Casandra 50:35 There there other things you should be frustrated about being done with your tax dollars. Casandra 50:40 And this is not one of them. Margaret 50:40 Yeah! Margaret 50:42 Yeah. And then even with my like, even if I was like a self interest capitalist shit, it's like, I don't know, healthy economy is not one built on fucking debt. And I don't know, whatever. I'm just like... Brooke 51:00 Don't spoil my ending, Margaret. Margaret 51:02 Oh, sorry. Right. Casandra 51:04 But capitalism means that there have to be people who are suffering and poor so that I can feel superior and be stable and have more money. Margaret 51:13 Oh, that's a good point. Casandra 51:14 Yeah. Margaret 51:15 No, I take it back actually, Brooke. I'd like to change my answer. No one should. Casandra 51:21 Fuck Casandra. Margaret 51:26 No one should have the right to have debt forgiven. It should probably be transmitted to children and children's children. Oh, wait, that already happens. Just okay. Anyway. Casandra 51:36 What about corporations? Shouldn't they be able to get their debt forgiven, Margaret? Margaret 51:40 Oh, yeah. I mean, corporations, obviously should have their debt forgiven. I mean, otherwise, we wouldn't have an economy. Brooke 51:46 Like, God. Okay. You two know everything. My work is done here. Throw the topic and walk away. Excellent. Casandra 51:55 Sorry, Brooke. Brooke 51:56 No, I'm loving it. Casandra 51:58 This is how we cope with talking about money. Margaret 52:01 Yeah. Brooke 52:04 Oh, it's so good. No, I have you know, I have a couple of, of friends and or relations that are both on the against it side. Well, neither of whom went to college or have any students debt. Casandra 52:21 Why are they still your friends? Brooke 52:22 Well, Facebook friends, let's say that. Casandra 52:25 That's fair. Brooke 52:25 I think it's important to listen to what people say on the other side. So, I try and understand the arguments and can have a conversation back and hopefully bring them into the light. Margaret 52:34 Yeah, that's legit. But wait, what if we instead created an increasingly more insular and pure subculture? Brooke 52:44 It seems problematic I'm gonna say, but... Margaret 52:47 What? Brooke 52:47 That's probably for another episode. Okay. Margaret 52:50 Okay, I'll stop derailing you, Casandra Johns 52:52 it would only be the three of us. Everyone else is wrong in some way. Margaret 52:56 I think that that's probably true. I'm sorry Bursts, who's doing our editing, I'm sorry Inmn, who produce the podcast. Brooke 53:06 You better apologize to all the patrons right now too. Margaret 53:10 Yeah, if you want to be pure and join our pure culture. A $20 a month level. Brooke 53:19 No. No cults. No cults. Margaret 53:22 Everyone keeps saying that to me. Okay. Brooke 53:26 That's why I took away that book on cults that I showed you the other day, you don't need the help. Margaret 53:32 Please continue. Brooke 53:33 Oh, God. Right. So so the arguments against it. Like you were saying, you know, one of them's about the, "I don't want my tax dollars going to that," which, like you said, is a pretty wild argument, because we don't get to decide directly where our tax dollars go. There's plenty of things that I'm in...None of us like taxes...And amongst us, especially like, abolish the government abolish the taxes, but even people who are okay with taxes as a functioning society, we still, you know, you don't get to decide where each dollar goes. What's your question face? Casandra 54:10 You mean when I vote, it doesn't directly change things? Brooke 54:14 Oh, God, another topic for another whole podcast episode about how about how it actually works out there in the world. Yeah, so that argument is kind of wild. And then the other one that I that I have seen is the, you know, "Why should anyone else pay for their choices?" especially if it's their...other people's bad choices or whatever. Which again, is wild to me. Margaret 54:42 You mean the bad choice to loan $60,000 to a 17 year old? Brooke 54:47 Yeah, seems like maybe that should be not a not a thing. Margaret 54:51 Well, I just but it's a bad financial like, like come on. That's that's a that's part of loaning money is you take into account like, there's risk involved. It is a risky loan to loan a 17 year old money. Anyway, yep. Sorry. Brooke 55:07 Yeah, I saw one of my, you know, probably Gen X or Boomer aged relatives saying, "Hey, I signed up for the loans at 18. And I read the document, and I knew what I was getting myself into. And it was a choice. And it's everybody's choice." And it's so many bad takes so many bad takes... Casandra 55:24 I wonder how much their loan was compared to mine? Brooke 55:27 Yeah, and there's that. Casandra 55:28 I'm gonna guess significantly less. Brooke 55:30 Yeah, so let me get into a little bit of data here, because I love data. Let's talk also about what the loans are and aren't, because if you're only looking at the headlines there's a lot that's not captured in there. The number we see tossed around is the $10,000 of forgiveness. And that's up to $10,000 of forgiveness. So there's caveats on that, because there's a income limitation as to when you can get it. And it decreases a little bit based on what your income is. But also, if you were awarded a Pell Grant, at any point in your college education, you can actually get up to $20,000 in forgiveness, and Pell Grants are a federal grant, not a loan, but a grant, i.e. a gift, basically, that only go out to the lowest income kind of folks. So, if you qualified for a Pell Grant at the time that you also took out loans, then you can get a higher amount of loan forgiveness. And then it also only is it takes effect for people who had taken out a loan prior to June 30th of this year 2020. So if you're in school, right now, if you're just starting this fall, it doesn't apply to you. You had to have taken out a loan prior to that to qualify. Some of the cool things about it, though, are that it helps kind of all kinds of federal loans, which 95% of student loan debt is a federal loan. Only about 5% is private loans. So that's most people with loans, although it's only again, those income requirements, but that's still a large portion of folks. Where's the other one I was looking at? Oh, there's a type of loans that parents can take out to help their kids. So most of the federal loans that folks sign up for, they are signing up themselves, right, you're putting yourself in debt for it, even though you're only 18, or whatever. But parents can also get a loan, there's a federal loan called Parent PLUS, that you can take out to help your kids and those loans also qualify for forgiveness. And that is different than the student's loan. So if you're a parent who took out one of those loans for your kid, and your kid also took out loans, you both separately qualify for forgiveness. Casandra 57:48 Is this...Sorry, is this...I hadn't heard of those parent loans. Is the thought that they're taking out a loan to help pay for their kids college? Brooke 57:56 Yeah. Casandra 57:57 Okay. So, just like, "Look, another loan we can give to someone." Brooke 58:02 Yeah. And it's a federal federal one again, and you know, federal loans overall are, at least compared with like private student loans you can get they're way more reasonable, super low interest rates, longer repayment periods, you can get restructuring, if you're having financial issues or get a pause on it, there's more ways to get them forgiven, like working for a nonprofit or in the private sector, stuff like that. So, these are sort of nicer loans, which is one of the faults that people point out with it is that the the private loans that are the more of the predatory style loans, like we talked about with the IMF earlier, you know, higher interest rates, they don't care about how much you are or aren't making necessarily, they just say you have to start paying it at this point, and you have to pay this much and they'll come after your car or your dog or your firstborn child or whatever in order to get their repayments. And this federal forgiveness doesn't affect those folks. Margaret 58:59 Would you say that our listeners should take out predatory loans from payday loan places in order to buy rain barrels? Brooke 59:08 No. Because you should never support predatory loan places. You can steall from those places. Margaret 59:16 What if we, what if we start a rain barrel loan fund that offers predatory rates? Brooke 59:28 Then I would no longer call you an anarchist. You'd be an An-Cap [Anarcho-capitalist] and out of the club. Casandra 59:33 Is this you? Is this you segwaying into an ad break for our sponsors? Margaret 59:41 No, i was my brain's poisoned by how the fact that my other podcast is...has actual ad breaks. Casandra 59:48 Duh Duh duh duuuuh! I'm rain barrels! Brooke 59:49 Hey, if rain barrels would give away some, loan some rain barrels, I would let them plug a little ad on this ad-free anarchist podcast network. Yeah. Margaret 1:00:01 Yeah. Although, I'm holding out for big IBC tote. Brooke 1:00:05 Yes. Margaret 1:00:05 Cause IBC totes are 275 gallons, sort of 55 gallons. And that's what I showered with for the past three years, an IBC tote available from wherever you're willing to go get a really cheap thing that used to be full of detergent and wash it out vaguely. Margaret 1:00:11 Half an hour's drive, we can go grab some. Casandra 1:00:25 Wait, really? Margaret 1:00:26 Yeah, yeah. Casandra 1:00:28 We should talk about that after we're done doing a podcast which we are in fact doing right now. Margaret 1:00:32 Oh right, okay. Brooke 1:00:33 Okay, one of the other things that comes up when folks talk about student loans is you get like the the Boomer types that will say, you know, "I worked a part time job when I was in school and paid off my...paid for my school while I was going to school." And I think we all know that that's just not possible to do anymore. And that's because of the cost of education and how it has skyrocketed. So, if you look at the difference from 70s, 80s, or so, of like median income in the US with the average household makes, versus the average cost of college, the average income has gone up like half again as much since the 80s or so, whereas the cost of college is four times more expensive than it was. And then the other argument that comes up that people make is, well, "Everybody thinks they have to go to college. Now, you know, everybody's trying to enroll in college, not everyone needs to go to college. But everyone tries to." And when you look at the numbers of like, the portion of the population that has that's going to college and how that's changed in the last like 50 years, it's been pretty much steady for the last 25 years. It rose in the 60s, late 60s was kind of flat in the 70s then started to rise again through the 80s and the mid 90s. Probably because of the series of recessions that we had that were really severe in some places, like Oregon had a really severe recession. And when there was a recession, more people go back to school, but it hit a peak in the mid 90s And then dropped for a while and then has kind of been staying around that peak, on average, over the last 25 years. That and that's the number of people has gone up, but the portion of the population, right, so as a percent of the total population has actually been quite stable for a while now. Margaret 1:02:30 And like, I'm a big fan of having not gotten a degree, right? But, I even had a dream again last night where I like dropped out of school again. And I was like, "Fuck you, I quit." And it was really, but, but it's something that I think that a lot of people don't talk about when they talk about being like, "Oh, well, not everyone needs a college degree," or whatever it is they they don't understand that like how important upper higher education is to upward mobility and upward class mobility, especially for like people who are like, marginalized among other identities besides class, like specifically around race, you know, like, there's...so I think that...I think it's something that we can accidentally get a little to like, "Yeah!" like, you know, people get very, like "I'm so blue collar, everyone should drive forklifts," instead of going and studying gender studies or whatever, right? And just like not fucking getting how important class mobility can be for people and how that functions most of the time. And so I get really annoyed when people are like, "No one should ever go to college," or whatever, because I'm like, that is a really that is a position that comes from a specific place for some people, you know? Casandra 1:03:44 Yeah. Brooke 1:03:46 I think people also forget in that the fact that college classes can include courses for some of those types of jobs. So,talking about like the other four year degree, an apprenticeship. You know, if you're an electrician or a sheetmetal worker, you're probably you're going to take some classes and probably through a community college as part of your education to get those kinds of jobs. If you're doing a forklift or CNC, you have to take a course and they can be three months, six months, twelve months courses, and often again, through community college. So even though you're not getting a degree, you're still doing some post secondary education. Margaret 1:04:29 Yeah. Casandra 1:04:30 Do you want to know how much debt I have for my community college? Brooke 1:04:34 Oh, this is gonna hurt. Casandra 1:04:36 Forty Grand. Brooke 1:04:38 Shut the front door. Casandra 1:04:41 And that's like with grants and shit because like I good grades and all that. I was on the 'President's list.' Brooke 1:04:45 For a frame of reference, listeners, Casandra graduated more recently, like last couple years, or three or whatever it was, but fairly recently. Yeah. When I was looking at the numbers, here's my personal anecdote. The cost have the four year degree that I got 15 years ago. I'm taking some community college classes now. And if I did an associate's degree, it would cost me as much for two years of community college today as it did for a four year degree with two majors 15 years ago. Yeah, the cost has has exponentially risen again. Four times. It's it's four times higher than it was like 40 years ago. It's risen more than anything, any other good or commodity. The cost of college has increased. Margaret 1:05:40 I will say, my, like optimistic, putting on my optimism hat. I don't like hats. That's probably why I'm not great. Okay. When I think about like some of the most...the strongest that leftist movements, anarchist movements, I know more about anarchist movements, I do other movements. The strongest they've been is like often, while popular education, or the existing educational infrastructure is failing everyone. And, you know, like a lot of work around reframing education in both France and Spain was coming out of anarchists in the late 19th and early 20th century in the modern school movement, all this stuff, and people were getting, like, literally murdered for advocating for things like "What if boys and girls are taught in the same classrooms and shit," and it's like awild idea that anarchists came up with. And like not talking about God in the classroom. Oh, my god, we're actually losing on all of these. Okay, anyway. It's like, "Remember the fight for an eight hour workday?" And I'm like, "Man, I wish I had eight hour workday right now." Okay, and but, but so that's like, my like, my, like, optimism is that like, in a burned for us new weeds grow? You know, I think that there's a lot of opportunity for alternative educational systems, but not in a way where they could like, immediately step in and be like an accredited university that allows the sort of class mobility that we're talking about, or whatever, right, but like, it does seem like mutual aid schooling and education are like, probably in a better position to take a foothold than they used to be. I hadn't really...I'd only previously thought about this more for like, grade school type stuff, especially for the whole, like how public school is like also kind of like low key just like childcare. And like, hadn't quite thought about this in terms of like, how it ties into, you know, continuing education, but it could, we could have Anarchy University, and then everyone could have degrees and okay, I don't know where I'm going with this. Brooke 1:07:45 Anarcho-U. Casandra 1:07:45 You need another project, Margaret. So... Margaret 1:07:51 No, dear listener, you need a project. At Projects-R-Us, we will give you a project. Brooke 1:08:00 Wrong podcast. Wrong, wrong podcast. Margaret 1:08:02 Replace the continuing education system!. Brooke 1:08:04 Nope, wrong podcast. Margaret 1:08:04 Okay, fine. Brooke 1:08:06 Yeah, so, Casandra 1:08:07 That'd be like your ideal job, I think. Margaret 1:08:09 it really would be, yes, I have way better at coming up with things that I can dedicate my entire life to than dedicating my entire life to any of the individual things. Brooke 1:08:22 Oh, maybe, maybe you didn't need to start the cult just to find leaders fo
Episode Notes Episode summary Margaret talks with Paige, who works in composting and humanure systems, about how to set up systems for disposing of food and human waste, different kind of systems that can be used including worm composting, and the importance of thinking about the scale and purpose of your system. Guest Info Paige can be found on Twitter @bad.compost Host Info Margaret Killjoy can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Penumbra City Spot If you would like to play test our Penumbra City TTRPG with your friends, contact us at Penumbra.City.Playtest@gmail.com Transcript Paige on Composting Margaret 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like The World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. Well, I'm one of the hosts, but I'm your host today. But, now there's new hosts for the show, which is very exciting to me. As much as I love listening to the sound of my own voice all the time, sometimes I like listening to other people talk. And, today we are going to be talking to Paige about composting, we're going to be talking about what to do with stuff that rots and why it's so important. And I don't know, lots of stuff around shit and things like that. I'm really excited about this kind of selfishly, because I have a lot of questions that are for my own personal use as someone who composts, and you know, has lived off grid a lot and stuff like that. So I think, I hope that you will get a lot out of it, and this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. JINGLE Margaret 01:49 Okay, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then I guess kind of why people should listen to you about compost. Paige 01:58 Thank you so much for having me. My name is Paige. I use she/her pronouns. I guess I started composting at a pretty young age. We had a pile at my parents house growing up and then more recently, actually worked for Tucson's city composting program when it was run through their university, so was on like an industrial scale operation for a couple of months. I currently work at the food bank in their farm and garden program. And I have helped them redesign their worm composting system as well as their just general composting system as well as installed composting toilets on site. I've also worked with friends of a land project and help them set up a composting system for humanure as well as just like food waste. Margaret 02:51 Cool. For anyone who's listening, if you can hear a squeaking in the background is because I gave my dog a toy that I thought didn't have a squeaker in it. And I was proven mistaken. So, I apologize for that. But okay, so composting, what is composting, that's where things where you just like throw an apple into the woods, and hope for the best. Paige 03:12 So composting isn't just kind of throwing stuff and hoping for the best. It's usually just taking, like organic material. And there's different types of composting, there's different systems, but it's kind of creating in a controlled environment to process what would be waste products into something that you can use more as a soil amendment, maybe for your garden, and maybe for fruit trees. But it's just yeah, processing waste into something really valuable and useful. Margaret 03:40 I get really excited about it. I have this kind of like scavenger mindset leftover from when I was more of like a squatter and traveler. But, I feel like food waste is like the main way I can still really feel that, like scratch that itch, you know? I mean, I guess I do it sometimes with other stuff where I try and scavenge. But like, I get really excited by the idea that you can like not have food waste be waste. And so I don't know, I'm very excited about this. Okay, so what are some of the basics of you know, okay, so, I mean, I guess the 'why' someone would compost is probably sort of implied, like not letting things go to waste. And then also like, not needing to, you know, go and purchase fertilizer and things like that for your garden. But, what are some of the basic 'Hows' like, I guess starting at a smaller scale, you know, if someone wants to set up compost at their apartment or at their house or wherever they are. Paige 04:35 Yeah, so I think it's really going to depend on like what you have available to you. So, like a backyard system. You could do an outdoor, like hot or thermophilic pile, which I've seen systems built out of pallets where you just kind of set up like a three or four sided bin, and then you just throw your food scraps in there along with some sort of cover material which will generally be like a dry carbon based thing, maybe leaves, maybe sawdust. In my house, I use manure I like go pick it up every couple of months if you're an apartment and don't.... Margaret 05:09 Manure is the cover? Paige 05:10 Yeah, I use like, well, so the manure that I find it's like it's manure mixed with straw. So it's like pretty dry. Margaret 05:18 Oh, okay. Paige 05:18 And bulky. And I think the thing that I see people doing wrong is just not having enough material to do like a hot compost pile. So, they're just kind of throwing stuff in a pile, and I live in the desert, so it just kind of dries out. I think it's probably different and more humid wet places. But yeah, to get like, kind of your traditional hot compost pile, I feel like would be kind of more on the scale of like, a pallet bin at the smallest, like three feet by three feet. Ish. Margaret 05:48 Okay. Paige 05:49 But, there's also you know, there's other options for like apartments and indoor use, such as like a worm bin, or there's, there's also a style of composting called Bokashi. That's actually more of like a fermentation that people do in buckets that you can also use to process your waste. I'm not as familiar with that. But, you know, not everybody has outdoor space to have a big pile that might be kind of gnarly sometimes. Margaret 06:14 Yeah. So, you keep talking about hot composting. Is that like, in contrast to cold composting. Is there cold composting that we could be doing? Or? No? Paige 06:22 There is. Yeah, I mean, if you if you're just adding material really slowly over time, or you don't have a lot of material, you'll probably have like kind of a colder compost and stuff won't break down as quickly. Generally, like a big hot compost pile is also going to result in like an end product like your compost will be more like bacterially dominant versus like, a long to cold compost where you're like not trying to get the temperature up, is going to be more conducive to like a fungally based compost. So, there are like there are kind of different end, end goals based on maybe what they use is going to be. A veggie garden that's going to prefer like a bacterial heavy...a bacteria heavy compost, and like trees are going to prefer like a fungally based, but if you kind of mix and match, like, it kind of doesn't matter. There's like, yeah, I feel like you can go really deep into all the science behind it, or you can just kind of like not and still make good compost and like, deal with your food waste accordingly. But, there are like different methods you can do, depending on on what your end goal is if you wanna goo deep into it. Margaret 07:35 Yeah, I guess that's something that's always sort of intimidated me about it is that, you know, before I started composting, I had always been sort of, I'd read all this stuff about it. And it was very, like, "This is the perfect ratio of nitrogen versus carbon material to add," or I guess, greens versus browns, I think is the way it's like often phrased or something. "And if you get it wrong, like all hell will break loose and demons will come forth from the seventh seal," and all of that and, and so it like kind of like, I think it scares a lot of people off, but you're sort of implying and my understanding is that you can kind of just do it and then like fuck with it to fix it as you go? Is that is that fairly accurate? Paige 08:13 Yeah, I would definitely say that's accurate. Yeah, I think like...yeah, definitely people kind of stick to like the greens and browns, but I don't know, I think it's kind of tricky. Sometimes if you have material that's like, drying out or really not drying out, depending on your climate. So, like here out in Tucson, where I live, it's like you have to water your compost. Otherwise, it just, it's just a pile of like dried old vegetables or whatever you're throwing into it so. And yeah. So I mean, it's like the greens and browns, which are your carbon to nitrogen, but then it's also you're looking at like moisture and porosity. So, if you think of like a pile of sticks, like that's like too porous, there's too much airflow that's not going to break down. But if you have like a mucky swamp that's also not going to have airflow. it's gonna it's gonna be really anaerobic and smelly. So yeah, I mean, I think like you kind of just have to see what works for your climate, and I think trial and errors the best way to go and err on the side of maybe a little more of like the browns, the carbon, stuff and add water if need be. And if it's not breaking down, then you'd want to add more of like the green nitrogen rich stuff, but I don't know. Yeah, I feel like in the current moments, I've tried to like come up with the perfect recipe and it's just not...it's just not necessary for like a backyard system. Margaret 09:41 Yeah. So it's more cooking than baking? Paige 09:44 Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like throwing in the spices.... Margaret 09:48 It gets presented as baking. Paige 09:49 Yeah, Nah. It's I mean, yeah, If you're doing it on like an industrial scale where there's like regulations and all of these different things that could really go wrong and you're dealing with like, tons and tons of material I think it's a bit more of an issue, but for like your average backyard person, I think like, just try to start and see what happens and adjust from there. Margaret 10:10 Yeah. What about those like roller...I feel like when you look for like compost, backyard composting like products, you have these...And I actually have one in my side yard, but it has yet to produce useful compost, but I think that's not not the fault of the product. But like, yeah, what do you what do you make of these, you know, it's like, I have this thing that looks a little bit like a five gallon of sorry, a 50 gallon drum but on a spindle where it can spin and there's like a...mine has like two compartments. And, I don't know, I've got it a Tractor Supply. Paige 10:46 Yeah, I've never had luck with those. But, I think it's just being in the desert. I think here inthe desert they just dry out. So, I've I've never tried those. I kind of tend to think that a lot of I mean, there's there's so many like compost products out there that are like try to make it easier. And I...to me, they all feel a little gimmicky. It's like, okay, you need like, you need to put stuff somewhere. It needs water, air, carbon, nitrogen. And that's it. And so having all of these like, additional, like tools, I yeah, I haven't had luck with them. I think the idea is that it gives you more airflow and allows you to like turn and mix the material, which probably helps it break down faster. But, it's also they're so small, like 50 gallons...I just, I usually try to start a pile that's bigger than that if I'm trying to get it hot. Margaret 11:35 Okay. Paige 11:35 And then. Yeah, I mean, I try to like I just put stuff in a pile, have enough material, and then I kind of like turn it sometimes. But, I try to kind of more just like let it sit and let like all the microbes and like fungus like do their job because it's just less work for me to deal with. But, I think they probably worked for some people. I don't know. Margaret 11:57 So we shouldn't do the Live Like The World Is Dying branded backyard compost tumblers? We should find a different gimmick product to sell? Paige 12:04 Probably. But you know, also if you're trying to do a brand deal, I think I'm open to discussing it. Margaret 12:10 I know I was gonna say like what did you get a cut? Does it suddenly...is it a better product at that point? Paige 12:14 Yeah, well at that point. Margaret 12:15 Okay. Yeah. Okay, I mean, I, the times I've seen them I think that the the primary appeal is almost like the...well it's like the like, my dogs not gonna get into it because it's in this thing, you know? It's like it's like pre contained, right. But, but yeah, I also have had it for nine months and it is still just sort of full of old leaves rather than full of like good useful dirt, so I can't really like speak to its efficacy. Paige 12:47 Yeah. Margaret 12:49 And I'm, I'm trying to build a system now that is like three bins that are four foot by four foot each each bin with the idea that one bin per year, and then by the time I fill up the third bin the first bend has been sitting for two years is my like, maybe overkill. I have all these like plans to make it rat proof and stuff too. I guess Okay, so I want to talk about some of the like downsides of composting or these sorts of compost like the things that I've heard about and worry about, 1) is you know, my dog has gotten into compost before and gotten really sick, right? So, keeping specifically Rintrah, my dog, out of compost is the first most important thing, and then also rats, and then smell, and then okay, what's the other one? Murdering yourself by putting it on plants, and having the plants that you grow murder you instead of feed you. Those are the four things that I've heard as potential downsides. Paige 13:47 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think all of those can be concerns. I definitely have like my friends dogs come over, and they hop in the compost. We kind of joke that like our house is the fun house for all the dogs, because they get to come and like play in like rotting stuff. But, you know sometimes that's maybe not ideal for them just because of, yeah, I put chicken bones and stuff in there, which you definitely don't want dogs getting into. But yeah, I think for to kind of control for for small animals and pets. I think doing pallet bins and then lining that with hardware cloth, kind of like what you were saying or honestly even lining it with cardboard would probably be effective at keeping them out. And not the rats, but at least like dogs. If there's like wood and then a couple other layers of stuff. As far as the smell, that's often an indicator of too much nitrogen and too much humidity and liquid. So, to kind of mitigate that you'd want to add more like dry carbon based stuff. And yeah, it's interesting because it sounds like your pile on the ground might be kind of smelly, but then you're like tumbler pile might just be dry leaves, so maybe if you just like threw the dry leaves in with the pile thatmight kind of address that. Working with what we got. Margaret 15:03 Oh, the tumbler pile. The tumbler pile is gross as Hell. That's why it's full of dry leaves now. Paige 15:07 Oh, Okay. Margaret 15:09 It used to be. There is no ground pile yet. The ground pile is a dream. It's a 2x4 frame that is currently sitting in the space that used to be a garden from the last person who lived here. Paige 15:21 Oh okay. Margaret 15:22 Tut I haven't...I haven't done the lining it with hardware cloth and all that stuff yet. Paige 15:26 Cool. Yeah, yeah. But, I...you know, composting in the desert we're trying to keep out pets and javalinas, and also squirrels. And yeah, I feel like doing it out of pallets, and then hardware cloth has...I've seen be pretty effective in keeping that stuff out. And then yeah, smell is usually it's too wet. As far as like creating like a dangerous end product, I think for that you can really just think about the time that...how long it takes as well as like the heat of the pile. So if you're able to get enough material and get it to heat up, it's gonna kill almost anything that is harmful to humans. The kind of industry standard is getting piles up to 130 degrees for about 15 days. And that's considered like sufficient to, like, kill pretty much anything like even like human waste. So, you know, and I think letting it sit for longer periods of time is the way to kind of guarantee that, that it's going to be alright for for food production. Margaret 16:24 That was kind of my thinking behind the the setup that I'm going to do with the two years instead of like one year is just out of like, well, what if I'm really lazy and do it badly then I'll just have it have set for two years instead of one year. Paige 16:33 Totally. Margaret 16:33 I don't know. What shouldn't people compost? I have a feeling that the answer to this is, 'It depends.' It depends on like the scale of the compost and things like that. But, to maybe like, I feel like kind of at this beginning, we're sort of talking about like backyard level compost, like vegetable garden level compost, and then I'd love to from there move into humanure and also like doing it at scale. But, in terms of like a backyard compost. What are things that are like good or bad for compost? Paige 17:10 Yeah, generally, most like vegetable and like fruit scraps are super great. Some people have trouble with like citrus peels, like they'll just kind of dry out. People tend to recommend against dairy, meat, and bones as well as really fatty things. If you have something it's really oily, as well as like often cooked food. But, a lot of that is mostly because of the salt content in the cooked food. Like adding a bunch of salt to your compost isn't ideal, because you don't want to be putting like salty, just salty compost on your vegetable garden. That's going to kind of suck the water away from from the roots of the plants. But, honestly, if you're doing like even like a four by four backyard, like I put meat, I put cooked food, I put pretty much anything in there, and just kind of...as long as it's getting hot enough and it's big enough, it's probably going to be okay. But, if you're doing smaller scale, you might want to be a little more choosy. And then if you're doing like an indoor worm bin, if you don't have an outdoor space, then you have to be a lot more choosy because you're not, you're not just putting stuff together and hoping it works out. You're kind of like feeding worms and they're they're a little pickier than some of the microbes that will be in your big outdoor pile. Margaret 18:25 Yeah, that makes sense to me. How long does it take to like, if you're throwing like chicken bones and stuff in that, like, how long is that taking to break down? Paige 18:33 Um, I feel like it takes like three to six months generally, but that's if it's..if you keep the pile hot and big, and there's like a lot of like, if it's moist enough, then like stuff will break down pretty quickly. Margaret 18:45 Okay. Paige 18:46 The bokashi method I was mentioning earlier, too, that can be used to kind of like ferment and like break stuff down. And, that's like a couple of weeks, but I haven't I haven't actually tried that method. But, I've heard that it can be really good for like animal bones. Margaret 19:00 Yeah, I watched one video. I probably a lot of people listen to this also do the thing where they're suddenly interested in something to watch all the YouTube videos and listen to all the podcasts about it. That might be why you're listening to this very podcast right now. Maybe you don't listen to the show. Maybe you just googled or searched 'compost.' One of the things that I watched was just like, "And then you kill the rats, and then you throw the rats in the compost pile." It was just sort of the the compost pile is like the 'all devour,' and it was like clearly he was doing it in this very like, "See. Look. The compost pile is not so fragile as people claim." I don't know that kind of impressed me, the idea that you can just throw the rats into...the dead ones into the compost pile. I don't know. Paige 19:43 Yeah, totally. No, it's it's kind of wild like what a pile will just like totally consume. Yeah, I think also like speaking about rats, like rats aren't gonna go into a pile if it's 140 degrees. Like that's too warm for them. They're like not gonna fuck with it. Margaret 19:58 Oh Huh, okay. Paige 19:59 Yeah. I just like it's just not...Yeah, if you if you're keeping it hot, it's like not a very like, comfortable environment for a lot of like the rodents and things like that. They'll kind of keep away from from at least the hot parts of it. Yeah, it's also cool. Like the the heating aspect of it, I've seen systems where, you know, it's like, you're using the heat to kind of generate all these microbes and break down all the material, but I've also seen systems where people are using it to heat water. If you like coil like pipes through it, you can even kind of get a couple of different uses out of that heat, which is pretty cool. Margaret 20:35 And compost piles generate this heat on their own from like, it's like a byproduct of the process of breaking down? Paige 20:42 Yeah, basically, it creates like, it'll just kind of breed all these microbes. And as these micro populations multiply, they yeah, and they consume food, they just create an like an immense amount of heat. I've seen piles that got up to like 160 degrees Fahrenheit. When I was working at the city's composting site, there was one winter where it snowed in Tucson, which was kind of scary, but there were two inches of snow on the ground everywhere, except for on top of...a lot of industrial scale areas, we'll use what's called wind row, which is like a pile, it's maybe five to six feet tall, and then it's just elongated it across whatever area they have. And so everywhere there was snow, except for on top of these wind rows that were just steaming and just melting everything that fell on them, which was really cool. Margaret 21:29 Yeah. Okay, so can you heat a house? By setting up a compost bin in your basement? Paige 21:36 Oh, I wonder. I mean, I think you could, if you put a compost pile in your basement, and then ran pipes through the pile, and then through your floor, I feel like you could gett some good like, floor warming action. Yeah, or like, some people will pile.. they'll put their pile against a greenhouse to kind of like, passively have a little like heat source near their greenhouse. But, if you're trying to... Margaret 22:01 Oh, that's interesting. Paige 22:02 Yeah, if you're trying to maintain like a pretty consistent amount of heat, though, you kind of need to constantly be adding a good amount of material and turning it because it'll, it'll kind of like it'll get really hot initially, when there's all this like new new material, microbes, air, water, and then it'll cool off. And then if you add more, or turn it and add more air, it'll heat up again, and it kind of will go through these cycles. But, eventually, what you want is an end product that's not going to reheat. And that's kind of a sign that the compost is like aged well and is a stable thing that you can put into your garden. Margaret 22:36 Oh, okay. Paige 22:36 Yeah, I've put in compost to my garden, like mixed it in when it wasn't fully done. And then like my garden bed, like, reheated and like was up at like 120 degrees, which is like not, yeah, not ideal and not good for growing plants. But if you have like unfinished compost, you can like, put a couple inches on top of your plants. And that's often going to be all right. But if you're like really doing like a first amendment of your...of a new garden plot, you want to make sure that you're working with something that's not going to reheat. Margaret 23:10 Okay. So, you know, you kind of know compost is done when it looks like dirt and isn't hot anymore? Do you like? Do you build up a pile and then just move on to the next pile? Are you kind of always adding to the original pile? Like, what what is to be done? How do you? How do? Paige 23:27 So there's a lot of different systems you can do. So there's, if you start a pile and then move on to the next one, that's kind of what's considered a batch system. So, you're building something up and adding to it and then you're letting it sit for an amount of time to make sure that stuffs broken down. There's other systems that are more designed as like a flow through system. So you're maybe adding to the top of the pile but you're able to pull stuff off the bottom, a lot of worm composting systems are flow through because you kind of have to, when you're putting new material and then harvesting old material, you're also trying to not like remove all the worms from the system. So you're trying to kind of add often, add material to the top and harvest from the bottom. So there's, there's different like commercial or DIY systems that that can be made to accommodate that. So, you can do either. And I think it really depends on like, what your timeline is and what your end goal is. Like, are you just trying to get rid of the waste that you have? And not have it be in your trash? Are you trying to make a soil amendment that's as good as possible as fast as possible? And so there's kind of different systems that that make the most sense based on just like what you have on site, what kind of energy you want to put in, and what your goal is. Yeah, but either are options. Margaret 24:44 Okay. So this kind of brings me...Well, I don't know if it logically brings me to but the thing that it makes me think of is that okay, so if you're in an apartment, right, and like I guess you could kind of tiny scale compost and on your porch or something, but it seems like it It makes more sense to have sometimes composting be a sort of shared thing between houses or within a community. Right? Like, you know, I know a lot of cities, and it sounds like this is something that you have been involved with at a municipal level, have like composting where people were able to set aside their food and the city goes and composts it because it's not trash, right? It should never have been trash, so the idea that we live in a society that's all organic matters is trash is very bizarre. But, it seems like you could also set that up kind of like smaller scale, right? Like, you know, within any given community, if you don't live somewhere with municipal composting, or, or is it better to just let it be at municipal level? Like what are the advantages of doing compost at scale, whether it's a community wide scale or municipal wide scale? Paige 25:45 Yeah, so I think doing it at a community or at a municipal scale and having it be really official, I think it makes it easier to divert stuff from the landfill. So, when food waste goes into the landfill, it creates methane, which is, you know, more potent than than co2. And, so it's actually interesting here, and here in southern Arizona, a lot of food comes through the port, that's like two...an hour south of Tucson through Nogales, and they have...the landfill there is like one of the most methane rich ones in the country, because they don't have a composting program down there, or like a way to divert food waste besides through like their food bank. And so when trucks come across the border, and food doesn't pass inspection, it just goes and the semi trucks are just dumping food waste into the landfill. And then it's creating like methane. Margaret 25:45 Oh, god. Paige 25:47 And so, you know, that's like a huge problem. It probably like deserves like a pretty big solution as far as like, what a system to address that would be. But, I think when I was working at the at Tucson's program, we had a lot of problems of people putting just garbage and trash into like the food waste bins at different restaurants. And, so it creates this really big problem of contamination, like when you're doing it on a large scale, like we...I remember seeing like freon tanks and just like constant plastic bags. Yeah. And so we were, it'd be like a huge part of what we did is we would just like kind of like tromp around in these massive piles of rotting food like pulling out plastic and even like the quote unquote, like compostable bags don't actually break down in some systems, and they would, they would clog up some of our machinery. And so yeah, I think I think large scale, you just have issues of contamination. And you also need a bunch of heavy machinery. Like we were operating, like a water truck and front loaders, we had like this machine that was specifically like a compost turner. It was, it was just like a lot of...it was pretty energy intensive process. It was fun. It was cool. I like you know, got to drive a tractor around. That was fun. But yeah, I think I think having it more be like the community scale where it's like, either backyard based or neighborhood based, or like community garden based, I think is is a better way to do it and just kind of cutting out like the transportation time and just having it at that scale. But, but again, that's not going to it's not going to address, you know, the semi trucks full of rotting food. But right, yeah, so. So there's, yeah, there's benefits and drawbacks, but I think I think, you know, with almost anything usually, like a lot of small, decentralized solutions are usually better than the large centralized ones. Margaret 28:27 I've I've based most of my political beliefs on this concept. But yeah, but I also believe that sometimes certain things need to be structured at larger levels in order to be effective, you know, or like, I don't know, accomplish what they need, like what you're talking about with like the, you know, the trucks or whatever. Well, okay, so then if you do it at the community level, it seems like another advantage right is you probably get less contamination literally because people could be like, "Joe, you can't keep throwing your Freon tanks in with your compost." You know, like Joe keeps doing that and, and probably gets shamed enough about it, right. Paige 29:07 Yeah, definitely. Margaret 29:09 I literally can't even imagine what a Freon tank is. I mean, I'm aware that there's a liquid called Freon... Paige 29:13 It kind of looked like a propane tank, but it was like blue and like, I was just like, In what world do we think this is gonna break down? Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was just, it was a bit of a mess. But yeah, so I mean, you know, when you're doing large scale, yeah, it's like you need to also figure out like how to like educate people versus Yeah, like, the just like community shaming of Joe for his Freon tank is is maybe a little more effective than like a massive scale like, program. Yeah. But yeah, and also, I mean, I think when you're doing smaller scale it also...people end up talking to each other and, you know, building community Yeah, that they do if they just aren't interacting. Yeah, Margaret 29:55 That makes sense. Okay, so But then, in terms of the stuff that...one of the things I got kind of excited about when I started doing...looking more into compost, because I've lived in situations that have required relied upon compost at various points in my life, a fair amount, but I've never been personally like, directing it the way that I am currently. And one of the things that kind of surprised me to learn about is that, like cardboard and paper and stuff can be composted, but maybe not easily, or it needs to be shredded or like, like it, there were a couple things that in my mind were marked trash, or fake recycling, because one of the biggest problems I think we have in this world is that recycling is a scam, or at least the version of--not the concept of recycling, right--but yeah, you know, the current industrial infrastructure of recycling seems to be largely smoke and mirrors. So, I'm excited by the idea of like, the more DIY recycling type stuff we can do, the more repurposing we can do. So, paper, cardboard: Yes? No? Maybe? Paige 31:03 Paper, cardboard, yes, under certain circumstances. So yeah, you're totally right about the shredding. So a lot of what that has to do with is like the surface area to like mass of the item. And so if you think about, like your compost pile is all these little particles, and then the microbes that are breaking stuff down, kind of live on like, the slime level surrounding each little particle. And so all these little microbes are going to have a lot easier time breaking down a bunch of shredded tiny bits of paper than like a full sheet or like a full chunk of cardboard that you're just creating more areas for them... Margaret 31:37 Or like an entire Ayn Rand book. Paige 31:39 Yeah, I mean, that's a good yeah. Yeah, you might need to rip that up first, which I think people would not be opposed to. Margaret 31:46 Okay. Paige 31:47 Might have fun with. Margaret 31:48 Okay, cool. Yeah. Paige 31:50 Yeah, I think that would be the ideal. I think also, cardboard and paper, worms really love it. So, you know, you could also set up multiple systems where you put something somewhere in some in another. The system that I have at the food bank demo garden here in Tucson, we have like a hot compost area, but then we also have a big worm area. And what we feed them is we feed them shredded paper, and then unfinished compost. And so we we put like a layer of paper and then we on top of it, we put a bunch of hot compost essentially but because we're only putting like an inch or two, it's not gonna stay hot. But we that's what we feed our worms. And they they love it. And so yeah, cardboard and paper, I would think more of as worm food than then putting it in my in my pile, although you can. But as the more you're able to break it down, the better. Margaret 32:44 Are there like--speaking of products and gimmicks--I can imagine a paper shredder, and I can imagine a wood chipper. But, can you just put cardboard into a wood chipper? Or like, like, is there a way to, you know, because I think that a lot of people during the pandemic probably receive more and more things in cardboard boxes at their front porch. And, like, you know, having ways to dispose of that as like bonus besides of course just using it as like sheet mulch or I don't know if that's what you call it, but like the gardening purpose of laying out cardboard, you know, any any tips on on breaking down cardboard? Paige 33:24 Umm, getting it wet and ripping it? But it's Yeah, I don't I don't think you could put it into a shredder. I think it would maybe gum it up. You also have to kind of take off like the plastic tape of that stuff. Because that won't break down. Some people get really specific and focused on like, "Oh, this is with a like plastic based ink. Like we're gonna be putting microplastics in like the soil." And like, there might be some truth to that. And I'm just like, we just live in like an industrial world where there's microplastics everywhere. And like, you can not put the like plastic based ink into your compost, because of the micro plastics or you can just be like, shrug and throw it in. Margaret 34:07 We're all gonna die one day. And yeah, we did this to ourselves. Yeah. Paige 34:10 I live in a city and I breathed the air here. Like, I think some microplastics in my garden is...we're already full of microplastics. I think it's fine. We're just like, you know, we're all connected. Margaret 34:21 I mean, it's either fine or it's not right. But it's like, I don't think I'm going to dramatically improve my quality of life by avoiding that additional little bit in my cherry tomatoes or whatever. Paige 34:30 Yeah, totally. Yeah, I guess it's actually deeply deeply not fine. And we don't have control over it may be my actual belief but... Margaret 34:38 Yeah, totally. Okay, well, speaking of the ruins of industrial society, can you can you put ash in compost? Is it depend on what the ash is of Paige 34:46 No ash and compost. No, don't do that. Margaret 34:50 Fuck. Paige 34:50 Yeah. Well, I mean, like... Margaret 34:51 What am I supposed to do with ash then? Paige 34:53 I don't know. People ask me that sometimes. And people were putting it into like a composting system and like using it in the humanure system, and I was Like, I mean, it's kind of just like, it's almost like really fine sand like it's just not alive. It's, it's maybe gonna bulk it and not harm it. It's not you're not adding anything that the pile needs. It's just kind of like fluff and like very dense fluff. Margaret 35:14 You're just putting it there to get rid of it. Paige 35:15 Yeah. And just like based on how dense ash is, especially when it's wet, you're probably limiting some of the airflow which is not good. So I yeah, I don't have a good use for ash besides, I've mixed it into like concrete before like when I needed to buy like sand and mix up like Portland cement. I've just like thrown ash in and that was fine. But I don't know how many how many concrete projects you have in your life right now, that might not be a reasonable solution. Margaret 35:43 I actually have more experience building than growing food so...I'm growing food as the unexplored terrain. Although I kind of hate working with concrete and I'm not very good at it. And I'm terrified of breathing it in. But well, yeah. Okay. Cement, I guess is what I'm terrified of breathing in concrete itself. I'm not particularly worried about chunks of gravel or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So no ash. Okay. But you mentioned these compostable plastics, aren't they gonna save us all? And isn't everything fine and plastic is great now because it's all compostable? Basically. Okay. So like, I've heard this before, right? That you need that, like your plastic spoon that you get at the hippie diner doesn't actually break down in a home compost. It would only break down on like, municipal level compost. Is that true? Is it like does it just take a lot longer? Or is it about a heat difference? Or is it all scam? Paige 36:37 Um, it's yeah, it's a heat and time thing, but it's really just a scam. I mean, I just don't...In what world is a single use item good for the environment at all. Like it's just greenwashing bullshit scam. Yeah, it's also there's interesting things about like what's biodegradable versus compostable? Like biodegradable just means it's gonna break down into way smaller pieces and compostable means it's like made out of a carbon or like quote unquote, natural thing that will eventually become dirt. But,we yeah, even at like an industrial scale, like we would constantly just be pulling plastic out. And so you know, it's kind of a thing that, you know, people do where it's like, 'wish cycling,' where you like, you're like, Oh, I'm gonna put this in the recycling bin because I like hope it's recyclable, but it's really not. Margaret 37:27 I did as a kid. Yeah. Paige 37:29 Yeah. And it's like, ultimately, proud. Totally. It's like a weird Yeah, you're like, you're like hoping something will break down. But, you're ultimately like, making it so like, some like worker or machine is gonna have to, like deal with it later down the line. And, you know, it's like, maybe you feel a little better about yourself, but it's, it's ultimately not not making a difference. Margaret 37:48 It's like calling the cops instead of handling the problem directly. You're just putting it on someone else. Paige 37:53 Yeah, it's like, yeah, It's kind of some weird like, Nimmy Nimmy thing. Maybe it would be a way to think about it. But yeah, yeah. Margaret 38:01 Yeah. Okay, fine. Paige 38:06 Sorry. Margaret 38:07 Okay, so I can't put ash in. All the plastic stuff is a scam. Yeah. I mean, neither of these thing surprise me. The ash thing I'm sad about. It makes a lot of sense. The way you described it makes perfect sense. Basically, because burning cardboard when when recycling is fake is something that people sometimes do. Paige 38:26 Yeah, totally. Margaret 38:27 Okay, so let's talk about...you've been bringing up worms a couple of times. My conception of worm composting is fairly simple. It's like, instead of the food is digested by random bacteria from the air/becomes sort of soil in the classic rot way. Instead, like worms, eat it and then poop it out. And then the worm poop, which we call castings to not sound gross is the like, some of like, the best, most nutrient dense compost in the world or something? Paige 39:02 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, worms are a little pickier eaters than the microbes. But yeah, they'll break stuff down really well. It's not all types of worms. There's like some specific worms that are better for composting. They have different names. Often people call them Red Wigglers but they're like scientific name is Eisenia Fetida and that those are yeah they're good worms for composting. Margaret 39:23 It's a prettier word. Paige 39:23 Yeah, it's a little prettier. Or fetid, you know, working with rotten stuff, but they, yeah, they're not good for fishing. They like kind of create like a weird smell that fish don't like so they're, they're very specific for for compost and they kind of only live in like the top three inches of soil, usually like rotting leaves and stuff. Yeah, and so you can you have to, you have to have a little more control over a worm pile because you're not you're not it's not just kind of like set it and leave it. You need to make sure that they have water, that they have fresh food, that they don't get too hot or too cold. Like there's a little more care that goes into that. Margaret 39:58 That they don't get bored. Paige 39:59 Yeah. You got it? Yeah. Totally gotta... Margaret 40:01 Like little worm toys or yeah? Paige 40:03 Yeah, exactly. Definitely add adding a few toys I haven't I feel it's a good idea to see how that affects our our system at the food bank, do some trials see if they're more productive if we give them some, you know, we give them bread, but not circuses. So we'll see if they're a little more productive if we meet their needs. Margaret 40:24 Flea circuses are the worms. Paige 40:26 Yeah, we'll figure it out. Margaret 40:28 Okay. Paige 40:30 But yeah, what else can I say about worms? Oh, it's interesting, because a lot of worms like for compost, as well as worms that like live in our soil are mostly invasive in North America. So kind of similar to honey bees or a lot of honeybees in North America. And they've Yeah, they've really, you have to actually be kind of careful with what types of worms you're working with, and where you're putting the material in certain parts of the country, because there's been really big problems of invasive earthworms. And they're, they're really impacting forest ecology, actually, you know, a lot of forests, maybe had a certain type of worm there, or maybe it didn't have worms. And so part of the forest ecology is that all of these, like leaves fall on the ground and take a long time to rot. But if you add a bunch of worms to that system, they end up eating all the all the leaves, which it just changes the soil makeup. And and it's, it's kind of a big problem. Yeah, Margaret 41:23 It gets rid of the mulch or whatever, right? Paige 41:26 Yeah. Margaret 41:26 Hmm. Okay. And so when you when you do worm composting, and you have a worm bin, you're basically breeding worms at the same time, right? Like, do you end up with more worms than you started? And you therefore can like, go and start your new worm bin? Because you have like, twice as many worms, or... Paige 41:46 Yeah. Margaret 41:46 Like, do...You don't have to like keep going by and buying worms at the worm store? The wormery? Paige 41:54 Yeah, ideally, you would not have to make too many trips to the wormery kind of like a one and done scenario would be ideal. But yeah, they'll double in population every three to six months under ideal conditions. They...eah, it was interesting. Like, you can get worms as like bait worms, where you buy them like 12, in a little cup, but those often aren't actually composting rooms. And the way that you generally buy composting worms is by the pound. And so when we started our system at the food bank, I bought 25 pounds of worms, which was about 25,000 worms. And the way you kind of calculate how many worms you need is actually based on the surface area of how big your system is. So every square foot, you can do a pound of worms, but.... Margaret 42:38 Cause they only hang out the top three inches? Paige 42:40 Yeah, yeah, totally. So if you have like, a super deep system, like they're just not going to go that deep. But yeah, there's a lot of...Yeah, worms are fun. And again, they they're creating like, super high quality material. Part of that is because when they, you know, part of what's good about compost and worm castings is like they will they add a lot of like microbes and bacteria to your soil and kind of help build up your like soil food web. And there's a lot of like microbes and bacteria that actually breed and reproduce like within the digestive tract of a worm. And so they'll like they're basically eating microbes and bacteria, and then shitting out like, way more microbes and bacteria. And that's like, kind of the thing that you want in your garden. So yeah, worms are fun. They're cool. And they Yeah, they'll any worm can like mate with any other worm. And then they they lay like an egg that has like, two to four baby worms in it, and then they hatch. Margaret 43:34 Okay, because they're not individually sexed or something like... Paige 43:37 Yeah, they don't. Everybody's got all the junk. Yeah. Margaret 43:41 Okay, cool. So The Left Hand of Darkness is the worms existence. Can you use other creepy crawlies? Like if you want to have your like goth garden where you only grow black eggplant, and black tomatoes, and black roses, and stuff, can you get like nightcrawlers or like, centipede or something? Paige 44:01 You can do you can do like nightcrawlers. Yeah, I mean, same as worms, but you can also do people will do black soldier fly larva to break down food and it's like, they just look like little weird grubs. And you can use those not to I guess that's not really composting at all. I mean, it's it's getting rid of like a waste material and like feeding it to like, little little bugs. But then you would just use those to like feed your chickens or something. So...not really compost, but a way to.... Margaret 44:28 So there's more steps involved? Paige 44:29 Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah. Margaret 44:32 Okay, so speaking of worm casings, and poop, the--not the final question, but the final like category--we'll be talking about human casings as part of composting, like, I know that this, you know, one of the reason want to save it for last is almost like the escalating level of like perceived grossness, right? Like I, I think people are like, "Oh, food rots. I understand that. Vegetables and rot. That's cool." And then you're like, "Yeah, but what if there's a bunch of worms," and then people get a little bit weird. And then you're like, "Okay, but what if you do with human shit?" Paige 45:04 Yeah. Margaret 45:05 And then that's where people say that they don't want to come over anymore. And that they don't want to eat your vegetables. Paige 45:11 Yep. Margaret 45:12 But it's actually completely fine. Well, it just takes additional safety precautions? I'm asking this is like, it's funny because I'm like, I try to self insert as the person who doesn't know anything about this, but I've like also lived on in places with humanure systems for a number of years. But,I'm curious your experience or like, how you sell people on humanure, or? I don't know, can you give an introduction to human casings? Yeah, Paige 45:38 Totally. Um, yeah, so you a lot of like, what to compost on what not to compost will be like, definitely not human, like poop or pee. And yeah, that's just totally not true. You can, you know, we're an animal like any other creating manure, and you can definitely use it. The yeah, there's a lot of different systems. I mean, there's commercial composting toilets that you can buy for your home that are like in the 1000s of dollars, but you can also make like DIY systems for like, under $50. Yeah, I've, I've seen a couple of different systems, I've helped set some up. At the garden that I work at, we have like a fully permitted humanure system that I built. And yeah, I've helped set up some different ones on like a land project. But yeah, you can definitely do it, the, the differences are, you just want to be really certain that you're hitting high temperatures, because that's what's really going to address like kind of the pathogen problem. But if you're if you're getting like a big hot pile of compost, and you're putting like human waste in it, like it's, it's gonna break it down, and it's going to be safe to use. Yeah, I'm trying to think of the I think the big questions are like, at what scale are you trying to do it? And do you care if it's like permitted or not? In some states, you can legally compost human waste at your home and some places you can't. It's also interesting, the like, a lot of sewage treatment plants end up composting, like their final product, and they refer to it as bio solids. And so actually, a lot of cities are composting human waste, they're just doing it after it's gone through like... Margaret 47:13 That's good. Paige 47:14 Yeah, it's like it's after it's gone through like a really like chemical heavy process to like, really ensure that there's nothing like bad in it. But yeah, 'bio solids,' is kind of like the, like industry term that, that they've adopted to not say like 'human shit,' which, you know is a little more off putting. But ultimately, yeah, yeah. Margaret 47:34 I mean, it's interesting to me, right? Because like, I think that this, to me is an example of where sometimes people...I read a book by a purported environmentalist once that was like, "We're animals, we should just poop on the ground." It was this big name, author that...whatever it was Derek Jensen, I fucking hate him. I don't care about name droping him. Fucking transphobe piece of shit. But anyway, you know, he wrote this book called "What We Leave Behind," that I just like, even back, this is like, back when I like before I learned...I'm not a particular fan of this particular author, but I was when I was younger. And one of the first things that talks about is basically being like, "I just go poop on the ground, because that's we're animals and it's fine." And I'm like, I also believe that the idea of like, taking our nutrients or whatever, and flushing them into the ocean is a bad idea, right? But, I also believe that we develop that system for a reason, which was that before we used to just poop in the streets, and everyone would get sick and die. Paige 48:31 Yes. Margaret 48:32 And so, so something like this is actually really interesting to me, because it seems to be this...you know, both sides are just full of shit...I didn't even mean to make that pun. Yeah. We'll be here all day. Okay, and I don't know. So it's just like, it's particular interesting. It's particularly interesting to me that it's like, "Okay, well, we actually can just do it right." We can actually...and it's not incredibly hard. You just actually have to do it. You just actually have to make sure that your compost pile sits for a really long time and or gets up to the right temperature if you're not going to be you know, I don't know. I don't know where I'm going with that rant. But... Paige 49:18 Derek Jensen sucks. Conclusion. Margaret 49:20 Yeah, yeah, totally. Don't just go poop on the ground next to your dog's shit. Paige 49:26 Yeah. I yeah, I think it feels really absurd to poop in drinking water, especially in the desert. A lot of like municipal sewage systems were not built to the scale that they're now operating at. A lot of them were like built to just totally overflow into like, whatever local water source there is. So yeah, I think like not shitting in drinking water and like having smaller scale ways to address like human waste I think is like a way better option and, you know, kind of similar to your other compost pile where you add like your greens and browns. In this case, the poop is actually a green, it's more of a nitrogen rich thing. It's not a brown, ironically. But yeah, you can I mean, I think the simplest system is like, it's called like a 'bucket to barrel' system or a 'bucket to bin.' And you would just have like a five gallon bucket with a toilet seat and like kind of a bin built around it so it's comfortable to sit on, and then you just like, go to the bathroom in it, and then cover whatever you leave behind with your dump, I guess, with wood shavings or some kind of carbon source. And then basically like, when that's filled, you just transfer it out to your bin system or wherever you're, you're kind of doing the the secondary processing. And yeah, just like make sure that pile gets hot. The systems that I've helped install, and we're actually trying to get one installed in my house in Tucson right now are either like barrel systems or like larger, I guess, bin or like a tote system. But you. Yeah, so there's the barrel, the bucket system, or you can also build toilets out of like 55 gallon barrels where you just like put build a toilet seat for the top of it. And then just like use, use that for your waste, and you're adding sawdust and things. And you just want to make sure that that system has like some ventilation as well as like an insect trap. And... Margaret 51:28 I was just going to ask, yeah, if you're doing it. Is that where you like? I've seen people do it where they like, take a...I completely cut you off. I'm sorry. Paige 51:36 Oh, you're good, go ahead. Margaret 51:38 People take a tube and like drill holes in it, and then stick it in the middle of the whole thing. So that way, like, even as the compost builds up, there's always like, a way for air to get in and throughout it all. Paige 51:48 Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's, that's.... Margaret 51:50 I think sometimes people over design these things, too. Paige 51:53 Yeah, totally. I think that's, that's definitely true, I think. I mean, I think it's helpful to have like more airflow, especially in like a composting toilet scenario. You also like, if you have like that 55 gallon barrel, like you do need to like turn it, which you do with a compost crank, which is kind of like a long, stick with like a coil at the end. And you just kind of like you put that stick in and kind of like crank it down and pull up and just try to get like some some like mixing in there. And that'll help the material breakdown better. Margaret 52:22 Oh, I see. Paige 52:24 Yeah, and then usually those are, those are kind of more of a batch system. So you would have a certain number of barrels, depending on how many people you had using it. And you would essentially use one and once it's filled, you would cap it, and then like wait four to six months and then empty it eventually. In that four to six month time period, you do want to make sure that you are turning it, and making sure that it's getting up to temperature to kind of guarantee that any any pathogens are dying in there. Yeah, and the other system that I've built is like more of like a larger tote system. So it was built out of cinder blocks. And it was like a two two section toilet. And so it's a bigger space is going to take longer to fill. But it's by having kind of like multiple of the same thing, then you have one that's like aging and resting and one that's actively being used. The other factor to consider is urine diversion. Different people have different take on it. I think if you're doing a bigger system, like with barrels or like the bigger bins, it's helpful to try to divert urine. So having like... Margaret 53:27 Oh, interesting. Paige 53:28 Yeah, it kind of depends on where you are and how heavy of use it is. But a system that I helped work on was one that like often would have like a lot of people using it really quickly. And so kind of keeping urine diverted was helpful because otherwise it would just get too moist and bulky. And like in that sense, and in those moments like it actually does get smelly and gross often. If you're maintaining it well it's actually not smelly or gross at all. But yeah, if it's heavier use it's helpful to like have a urinal or like there's like urine diverters or funnels that like you can have like in the toilet seat that kind of helps like if people are like sitting and peeing it all kind of separate from the solids. Yeah, so there's there's there's different ways to do it. But I mean, urine also can be composted. So. Margaret 54:16 Right, yeah. Well, and a lot of people will put it--please don't listen to me as the expert gardener anyone who's listening to this--I'm under the impression is about 10 to 1 water to urine and then like apply as fertilizer directly once it's like watered down that heavily. That's something that you've heard ever? Paige 54:37 I've heard people do that. I feel like I I've kind of tended to more just do like, compost everything first and then use it. Yeah, just because yeah, I mean, I think for me, too. It's just like not It's not easy for me to like, harvest my own urine. It's not a thing. I feel super....Like. Yeah, I but I have heard of people doing that. Margaret 55:00 Yeah, yeah, it just seems like the process of combining the two. 10 to 1 or whatever it just involves, like lots of...I don't know, stagnant urine is one of the worst punk house smells that's ever been smelled. Paige 55:16 Yeah. Margaret 55:17 And that's not something that I would try to sell someone on. But, then that is the reason...As I've been researching hypothetical humanure systems....I have been interested to see the different ways that people take the different takes that people have on it. It seems like if you're not diverting it, you're just you're ending up with a lot watery buckets, right. And so you just have a lot more. You're saying it's bulkier, because you're just adding so much more sawdust or hay or whatever your carbon is, in order to start absorbing all that? Paige 55:49 Yeah, you can, you can run through your carbon source a lot faster if you're trying to add that. I think also like, especially with bucket systems, like if you're peeing in the buckets, and just like, I've carried some buckets that were just like, I was like, This is disgusting. Like, this is just like, piss and shit and like a little bit of sawdust. And I'm not happy about this. I've also like, yeah, you know, trained people to use a bucket system and like, don't ever pee in the bucket. And then the next morning, I'm like, sitting there, and I'm like, Oh, God, I'm peeing. I'm letting everyone down. I'm such a hypocrite. Oh, no. It happens. It's a shameful thing to do I guess but. But yeah, if you're, if you're, especially with a bucket system, if you have to, like move it, I feel like if there's a lot of people using it, it's nice to maybe divert the urine just for like it weighs less, it just is less smelly. But you can also just add a lot more carbon. So like, when I've done systems that weren't going to have urine diversion, I've actually started whatever like receptacle or container with like, a third full of whatever carbon material I'm going to be using, just to really make sure that there's like, kind of like just a bunch of dry material that can soak up that excess liquid. And yeah, and I think it's, you know, a, I've worked with systems that are I've gotten systems permitted. And I've also been around systems that were not permitted. And a lot of like, the permit stuff, like will require urine diversion, just for, like, pathogens and smells and things like that. Yeah. So I think it's just a thing to consider of how you're, how you're gonna manage that, that added, like, moisture and, like, just like dense material. Margaret 57:33 So what do you...so in terms of carbon to add, I think that this is also another thing that holds people up, right is because, you know, there's like, oh, just add a lot of sawdust. And most people, I think, think to themselves, I don't have a lot of sawdust. I don't produce much sawdust in my life. Even I as someone who like makes her own furniture, sometimes and shit. I don't produce that much sawdust compared to like what is necessary, right. And, you know, some of the places I've lived before will make deals with sawmills where they just basically show up with a truck and are like, "Hey, can I have your sawdust?" And the place is like, "Yeah, whatever, just get rid of the sawdust for me, I don't care." But it seems like everyone has different tactics on getting carbon material. And it's like, it seems like it's the it's the one that a lot of people aren't producing themselves enough and therefore go and get. And that was actually why I was so excited about like cardboard and paper as possible carbon sources. I know that for myself, I fortunately, live somewhere where there's a lot of land and I can just like, run a push mower with a bag on the back and fill out the bag. And then this is literally my hypothesis. It's green when it first gets cut, but later it's brown, and it seems like it when it's dried out. It's more of a carbon for compost. Paige 58:49 Yep. Margaret 58:51 Okay, so how would you recommend 1) Am I doing it right? And 2) that other people go and find a carbon source? Paige 58:56 Yeah, I mean, I think the sawmill thing is a great thing to do. That's what we're doing. Like with the garden and other projects, like we just have agreements with sawmills, and like, cabinetry places and the only thing we have to keep an eye out for is if they're working with walnut. That's a word that has a lot of like antibiotic, antibacterial properties and will like kind of halt the process. And so you don't want to be adding walnut and I think there's maybe a few other types of wood that that you wouldn't want to use. Margaret 59:24 Like Cedar, maybe? Paige 59:25 Potentially I'm not, yeah, I'm not totally sure. But yeah, I think dried grass clippings would work great as a cover material. The other thing that we will sometimes do out here in the desert is like sweep under like mesquite trees because there's just these really fine little leaves that when they're dried out work really well. But yeah, the other thing is just getting...if it's like just a system for yourself, and you're not having to source that much you can also just buy like wood shavings at like a pet store, which is annoying. It's like annoying to have to buy, buy something that you have to put into your system, but I think it's better than shiting in water, personally. But... Margaret 1:00:01 Yeah, well especially in Tucson or something. Paige 1:00:04 Yeah, totally. Yeah. But it's, you know, I think it's up to what you have on site. I don't know that shredded paper would be...because part of what you want to do is you want to kind of cover your poop so that it's like not smelly and not like easily accessible to flies and different insects--and so like I'm thinking if you just did like shredded paper, I think it would just be kind of like some fluff on top but still like a lot of access for like smells to pop up and for like insects to get in. That might not work super well, unless it's like that really finely shredded paper, but I'm not sure. Margaret 1:00:43 But it'd be really fun for whoever's job it is to, to steal your shredded paper in order to like, re put together your files and try and prove that you did this or that, you know, yeah, if they had to, like literally go into the compost bin. Paige 1:00:58 Yeah, that's a good way. Yeah. Some good security culture, maybe to compost your, your paper and I support that. Margaret 1:01:10 Okay, well, that's, that's the majority of my questions. I was wondering if you had any final words about why this is like, great? And matters? And it's so interesting? You know, you've, you've talked about, like, for example, like, like shitting in drinking water is like, not the coolest thing that's ever happened. But, but yeah, do you have like, or any other final thoughts are things that I should have asked you that I didn't, or? Paige 1:01:35 I can't think of anything right now. But yeah, I mean, I think composting is just like, it's a way to just like address waste problems on site. It's like small scale, it's a way to build up soil and not use fertilizers and inputs. So, I think it's just a really good thing to do if you're able, and it's fun. I think it's fun. Margaret 1:01:55 Yeah, I think it'd be a cool way to like, you know, one of the questions I get asked a lot is, like how people can can meet their neighbors? And I mean, obviously, sometimes it's a very complicated question, you know, if you're, like, I'm not in a, I'm not in a blue state, let's say. And, you know, like, like, there's a lot of like, compl
Episode Notes Episode summary In this new monthly segment, members of the Strangers Collective discuss current events as they relate to community preparedness. If you're watching the news and wondering what's going on with inflation, supply chain shortages, the heat "wave", or Q'anon talking about space lasers and the black holes that are causing all of this, tune in. The group breaks down the mechanics of inflation, why prices are what they are, why we're seeing shortages, and ways you can prepare now for when things get worse. Host Info Casandra can be found on Twitter @hey_casandra or Instagram @House.Of.Hands Margaret Killjoy can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript This Month In The Apocalypse Margaret 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like The World Is Dying, your podcast for feels like the times. I'm one of your hosts, Margaret killjoy, because joining me today are two other co-hosts if y'all want to introduce yourself. Casandra 00:28 I'm Cassandra. Brooke 00:30 I'm Brooke. Margaret 00:32 And today, we are starting a new, a new fun series talking about all the fun stuff that's going to be coming your way soon. It's called This Month In The Apocalypse, because we've realized that on this podcast, we talk a lot with different people about how to do different skills, about different specific issues, but there's so much happening these days that it seems worthwhile to kind of keep track of this as it happens, all the different things that are happening, I don't know, does that decent description of what the hell we're trying to do? Casandra 01:09 Yeah. Margaret 01:11 And you will be excited to know that this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on the network. Jingle song 01:24 It's going down, and you're invited for what they sell it. We buy in, there is no running. There is no hiding. There's only fighting or dying. It's going down, and you're invited for what they're selling, we aint buying. There is no running. There is no hiding. There's only fighting or dying. Jingle Host 01:53 It's going down is a digital Community Center from anarchists, Anti-Fascist, autonomous, anti-capitalist and anti-colonial movements. Our mission is to provide an autonomous and resilient platform to publicize and promote revolutionary theory and action. Jingle Host 2 02:10 Go to itsgoingdown.org for daily updates, check out our online store for ways to donate and rate and follow us on iTunes if you like this podcast Margaret 02:27 We're back from the jingle. I'm used to having another podcast where there's actual ads, which sucks. And so I don't know how to talk anymore. So, nothing really happened this month and everything is continuing as it should. I believe there's no major supply chain interruptions nothing forecasted bad to happen. Does that that match with the yall's understanding? Brooke 02:54 Yeah, good done, end of pod. Move on with our lives. Margaret 03:01 What do we want to talk about first? Want to talk about shortages? All the stuff there's shortages of? Brooke 03:09 Sure. Casandra 03:10 Yeah, I was looking at a list. And it's it's just everything. They're shortages in everything. Margaret 03:16 Give me some example. Casandra 03:17 It started out like meat, dairy, eggs. And then it was like produce, aluminum for packaging things, plastic packaging things, fuel to get things to places. Margaret 03:27 Yeah, one of the things I was trying to think about was like, you know, when I was looking through, it seems like some of the things that they're shortages of there's shortages of from a supply chain point of view, sort of a temporary point of view, right? Like, like one of them is like pet food. I saw that one and I like freaked out. It's like I have a pet. You know, do I need to fill my basement with like a like a ball pit, but just full of kibble? Brooke 03:52 Ongoing forumla shortage issues. Margaret 03:55 Yeah. Well, but and what's interesting is to try and figure out which of these things are....the pet food issue, at least as I saw was a little bit different than some of the other ones. It actually more is about there's increased demand, because locked down got more people to decide to become closer buds with different creatures that aren't human that eat pet food. And, I guess there's a word for those. And so... it'sprobably in the word pet food. Food. People decided to become friends with different food. Shit, I'm supposed to be the vegan on this podcast. Okay, so.... Brooke 04:30 We're off to a banging start. Margaret 04:34 Hell yeah. So pet food, it seems like the shortage is, at least at the moment more just that like there's a lot more demand for pet food. And, so therefore, like people are rushing to keep up. Kind of like the mask shortage at the beginning of the pandemic wasn't like, "Oh God, we're out of the capacity to produce masks." They just were like, "Oh, we need to like ramp up our infrastructure." And so there's like some of it like that. But, then it seems like some of the other shortages are a little bit more because there's not the capacity to either create the thing, or distribute the thing. I don't know, you all know more about this. Casandra 05:09 Or even there's...I think about crops, like there's the ability to create the thing, but not to actually harvest and process the thing. It's seems like every step along the way, is having issues. Brooke 05:23 Right. And if you've got issues with plastic and aluminum, then you can't package the thing. So, maybe you could make it and maybe you even can ship it, but you pack it up. But, there's also then lots of problems with actually transporting it from place A to B. Margaret 05:40 One of the things...Okay, I was reading a list too. And I came up with this clever segue. So I'll just draw too much attention to the fact that I planned this ahead of time. One of the things that there's a supply chain shortages of, I was like, looking through this list, and one of them was garage doors. And that's not something that I think about on a regular basis. I just don't think about whether or not I could go down to the store and buy a garage door today. Right? But it has all of these like, cascading effects. And like, I don't know, you all were having this interesting conversation that I'm trying to trick you into having, again, about housing and the ability to construct homes and all that shit. Casandra 06:21 Oh, I thought you were referencing the conversation about how I actually need a new garage door. And I was like, "Oh, I don't think that's useful. I don't think that's useful on this podcast, Margaret." Margaret 06:30 I was just gonna embarrassingly admit that I have two garage doors, because I live rurally and there's multiple garages on the property. So, I just feel like I'm kind of like, you know, I'm stealing doors. Casandra 06:44 Rich in doors! Brooke 06:46 Well, I mean, technically, Cassandra and I also both have two garage doors, because we have two car bays in our garage and each has a separate door. So we are all two garage door people. Casandra 06:57 Door Priviliege. Door Privilege. Yeah, no, what you actually asked me about was much more useful. Margaret 07:02 Okay. Casandra 07:06 Brooke, please help. Brooke 07:09 Yeah, well, I feel like it came up, because you know Cassandra, you are renting your current house and would love to buy it and have wanted to buy it for a while. And so, you and I keep having these conversations about everything going on with the housing market. Margaret 07:27 So let's talk about that. Casandra 07:28 Right before Covid, it seemed like a good time to buy a house. And then six months later, it seemed awful. And it seems like it's just getting worse. Brooke 07:38 Yeah, that's super accurate. And for just a whole bunch of different reasons. I mean, housing has been overpriced for a while and has gotten just exponentially more so. The cost of housing is outrageous. But then the bigger kicker in the last year is interest rates on mortgages have doubled. So you know, they went from a place where they were at like 3 or 4%, which is actually really pretty reasonable. And now they're up between, like closer to 6%, on average, most of the time, which is not a good interest rate. And one of the things that we saw before the fall of the housing market back in '08, was these super high interest rates, you know, 7-8%, or some of the really predatory lending stuff, people will have them at 10-12%. And we're not quite seeing that. But we are seeing with things like the 6,7,8% interest rates right now, which is not good. Margaret 08:33 Does that mean we're heading for similar places as 2008? Like, how does the how do these compare? I feel like you know, a little bit more about this. Brooke 08:39 Yeah, the the underlying factors that are causing our current bubble, are very different from what we saw in 2008. The ultimate outcome will be a lot the same in a housing crash, and people not being able to afford their mortgages and all the ripples through the economy and whatnot. But, the underlying causes are different. One of them is that the inflation has been on the rise. And so mortgages, you know, we tend to think of a mortgage as a thing that we have in order to buy our house. But from a bank's perspective, a mortgage is a commodity, it's a product that they're buying and selling. So anytime you see prices for products on the rise, mortgages are going to be one of those products that become more expensive. Margaret 09:24 How does this affect renters? Like I would guess, sort of maybe rudely that most of our listeners are renters, and, you know, is it like is that just kind of cause rents to go up if the fact that like if if mortgages are getting harder and harder for landlords like... Casandra 09:40 Well, rents are already going up, at least here. I guess I wonder how much that's related, though. Margaret 09:47 No, I don't know. Is it just going up because of inflation? Casandra 09:49 Yeah, i think it's just general inflation. Yeah. Margaret 09:51 Which is interesting, though, right? Because one of the advantages of homeownership, it seems to me is that it's slightly more inflation resistant, because If your interest stays the same as locked in of whatever you bought it at, you know, and so...and the amount you owe, the bank doesn't go up to match interest. So the landlords have any excuse at all for jacking up rents? Because it's not like they're not like their mortgages have gone up, you know, the same amount is as interest. Brooke 10:21 Well, if they're requiring, if they're using the mortgage payment that you're making in order to fund their life that's their source of income is the profit, you renting the house. Then their costs for all of their other goods in life are going up, so they need to make more money off of the thing that pays them, i.e. the renter, Margaret 10:42 It doesn't seem like a good system, the idea that someone can just make money off of someone else's work instead of their own work. That doesn't that doesn't sound right. That sounds like Communism. It doesn't actually sound like Communism. But that is what people claim. Brooke 11:01 It's incredibly problematic. Margaret 11:04 So landlordism, not not a good... Casandra 11:07 Not great. Margaret 11:09 Hot take. Brooke 11:10 I do not stand. I do not stand the landlords. Casandra 11:13 I hope my landlord doesn't listen to this podcast. Brooke 11:17 If he's the kind of person who listens to this podcast, he should just give you your house. Casandra 11:21 It's true. Shout out to my landlord. Margaret 11:23 And if you're a landlord listening to this, sell your houses to your renters at reasonable rates. Casandra 11:32 Right? Margaret 11:32 Or just give them if you can afford it. Brooke 11:35 Yeah, we were talking about the interest rate the other day, Cas, I think you had some good questions about...you had a bunch of good questions the other day that I would love to talk about here on the pod to if you want. Casandra 11:47 Oh shit, I wonder if I can remember what my questions were. The other day, it was a long time ago. Brooke 11:54 Understood. And also, you know the answers, so you're not wondering anymore. Casandra 11:59 Yeah. Or I just got confused and forgot, which is also possible. Margaret 12:05 That's what I would have done if someone explained many things to me. Casandra 12:08 Yeah, that's generally what my brain does as well. That's why Brooke's here. Thank you, Brooke! Brooke 12:13 Sorry, I guess we should have done in the introduction why I'm relevant too. Margaret 12:19 Yeah, okay. Well, so like, so folks who've listened, if you've listened before, you've probably met me. You might have met Casandra. Casandra has been on a few more times recently. Brooke, who are you? Brooke 12:35 I am a baby anarchist with the pronouns "she" and "her", living in Oregon, relatively near to Casandra. And I have a background in economics and accounting, because before I was an anarchist, I was a capitalist. I'm sorry. And I thought that capitalism was good and fine. And I did a whole lot of time studying and learning about it. And now I like to use all of that knowledge and understanding to talk about how bad capitalism is. Margaret 13:09 I mean, the person who did the most work researching capitalism was Karl Marx. Like, as far as I understand, like, a lot of capitalists were like, "Ah, yeah, that that's what we're doing," you know, after he like, actually wrote down how capitalism works. Just had different takes about whether it was good or bad. So, you know, I dunno. Yeah, so, so we've been talking about...and Brooke is part of Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness, the publishing collective that puts out this podcast as well as other good things, like a podcast with it's the name Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness that you can listen to also. And so we just, we've been having a lot of conversations amongst ourselves about like, "Well, what the fuck we going to do as people as all this crisis happens?" And then we were like, "Oh, right, we should, we should talk about this stuff more." So... Casandra 14:02 l remember. Margaret 14:04 Great. Casandra 14:06 Thanks for that, giving me time to remember. So, I asked about your interest rates. The last time they were this high was 1984. And theoretically they're hiking up interest rates to help deal with inflation, which doesn't make sense to me. But Brooke, you had you understood that? Brooke 14:33 Yeah, because when you mentioned the thing about the interest rates, I was like, "Wellllll, not actually." Because the interest rate that we hear about a lot in the news is the Federal Funds rate, which is set by the Federal Reserve, which is the National Bank that we have in our system. It's basically the bank that our banks use, so all of your US banks and Chases and all of that, they bank at the Federal Reserve. And that's the interest rate that we're talking about is the Federal Reserve's rate that they pay to banks to store money with them. So you're a bank, and you are legally required to have a certain amount of your cash saved at the Federal Bank. It's like 10% of your holdings have to be there. And then the government says, "Thanks for letting us sit around and hold on your money, here's some interest." And to incentivize banks to save more of their money, they've raised that interest rate. So that's the one that you've heard about that's higher than it's been since 1984. Margaret 15:39 Oh, interesting. Brooke 15:40 And it's not directly tied to the other types of interest rates, like loan interest rates, you know, mortgages and credit cards and cars and stuff. But it definitely influences them, because when you look at it from a bank's perspective, like you walk down to your neighborhood bank, and you want to take out a loan from them, they have the choice to get a certain guaranteed interest rate from the Federal government, which is super secure, they're gonna get their money back, they're gonna get their interest, you know, think safe over there, or to loan you a consumer money and gain interest from you. And they only want to give you money, if they can make more on it than they would by loaning it to the Federal government, especially because you as a consumer might be taking it out for like, a mortgage loan, which is going to be 30 years, let's say, so the banks not going to get their money back for a much longer period of time. Whereas with the Federal government, they can go anytime and say, "Hey, I need some of my money," and get it right then. But you as the consumer, they can't. So, they charge you the consumer higher level of interest. So, whatever the federal interest rate is, the bank is going to then want to set its interest rates that it charges to people higher, so it can make more money. And if you can't afford to pay that higher interest, the bank is like, "Fine, I can load my money to the government, and still make still make money off it." Margaret 17:05 So how does this relate to inflation? How does this relate to everything costing more money now and like, you know, you're saying that they were like, they're doing this to solve it, it sounds like it would make it worse to me, I don't know shit about shit. But... Brooke 17:20 Yeah, so they're trying to make money more valuable. So right now, because inflation is high....Let's say you have $1 in your pocket, and you go buy a banana today, and that banana costs $1. So your dollar equals a banana. Let's say you decide to buy a banana tomorrow, and you still only have $1, but the price of the banana has gone up to $1.10. You no longer have one bananas worth of money, in this situation, Margaret 17:51 92% of a banana or something. Brooke 17:55 It's too high for a banana, but that was the first thing that came to mind. Anyway, so they want to curb that inflation so that tomorrow you can still buy your banana for $1. But in order to do that, they have to make your money more valuable, in a sense. And they do that by removing some of the money that's out there in the world. Casandra 18:18 It's...is it possible I'm an anti-capitalist just because the shit can.... Brooke 18:21 Doesn't make sense? Casandra 18:22 Yeah. Brooke 18:23 Yeah, you have to stop thinking about money, the way that we as normal human beings think about it as like, "I give you this stupid thing and you give me something good and useful." And think about it in terms of a bank that thinks of it as a product. So their money is a product that they can buy and sell and get value for. So when you decrease the amount of a product that's available, what's left becomes more valuable. Casandra 18:48 I'm glad this isn't a visual recording so people can't see my like trying to grasp face. Brooke 18:53 This is very helpful to me to know whether or not I am making any fucking sense at all. Casandra 18:59 I'm sure you're making sense. I just...yeah, my brain shuts down when I think of all this stuff, which is why I'm glad you're here. Margaret 19:07 Yeah, and it's like, I want to understand this stuff, but I've also have a little bit of a like, yeah, part of why I'm anti capitalist is I'm like, "This just seems needlessly complicated." And then I'm like, but then I turned around, and I'm like, "Okay, so a federated model, where you have all of these different autonomous groups, and the spokes go to this other thing. And then those make decisions by consensus, except in some cases where they use majority vote, except people have a block, but then as it goes to this other level, and then this is the way they communicate." And so then I'm like, okay, I'm not actually afraid of complicated organizational structures. Casandra 19:45 But that's...Complicated is different than bureaucratic, you know? Margaret 19:49 Okay. Okay. Brooke 19:50 Yeah. I find myself living in this weird place of like, all of this is just ridiculous and unnecessary and most really bad. But also, this is how the thing works, and I'm a pretty big opponent and like, understanding how the thing works, especially when you want to dismantle the system, Margaret 20:11 Yeah. No, and like, I actually just want to appreciate you and people like you, you know, I remember I had a conversation with someone once recently, or they're like, "Oh, I don't think the anarchists would like me. I like spreadsheets too much." And I'm like, "No, we need you.... Casandra 20:25 We love you! Casandra 20:25 We need you more than we need other people." Brooke 20:28 Yeah. For the listeners at home, every time the word "spreadsheet" comes up in the Strangers' group discussions for work, I'm always like, "Me! Me?, do I get to do it? Can I have a spreadsheet?" Margaret 20:39 Whereas I'm like, I've been doing it? And I'm like, I don't know, I'm just beating my head against these things. Casandra 20:47 Well Brooke, you mentioned wanting to understand like, how, how things work. And I'm wondering, so we talked about that the fact that there is inflation, but I'm wondering what the factors are contributing to that, like, why it's continuing to go up at such a rapid rate, because we haven't really... Brooke 21:08 inflation? Casandra 21:09 Yeah. Brooke 21:09 Why it's gone up so much? Casandra 21:11 Yeah. Brooke 21:11 Inflation is a complicated beast. We know that a portion of it is just straight up corporate greed and fucking capitalism being capitalism, you know, of companies saying, "Oh, we can, we can raise prices and have great profits. And people will just like, do that, and we get more money? Yay!" So, and because it's happening in real time, there's not like great data to say, "Oh, half of the reason of inflation..." or whatever, like, we don't know exactly how much that specific action is contributing to it. But it's some large portion of inflation is just because companies are awful greedy, terrible. But, a couple of other factors that are leading into it are fuel prices, like everything in the world is basically affected by fuel prices to move things from A to B, and the creation of so many things, you know, incorporate some amount of petroleum. And...there was a third thing that just fell in my brain. But that actual cost is on the rise. So like it is more expensive to create products. So, that's contributing to it. And then also, the shortages in the supply chain, like we were just talking about that anytime there's less of something, it becomes more valuable. So like, how you see price gouging, when there's an emergency, you know, like, like, if the city's water shuts off, suddenly bottled water becomes more expensive. It's because there's less of it, then they can start to charge more, because people who will afford it can still buy it, and people who can't, then too bad for that. And again, it's all just because capitalism is evil and bad. Margaret 22:57 So, in terms of like solutions, one of the things we talk about when wee want to talk about all the bad stuff and then we want to talk about what people can do, at least as individuals and communities to combat it. Right? And like, and I'll say that for my own sake, and I don't know that this is actually a you know, I actually, I've talked to some of my friends who actually work in finance, and they're a little bit like, "That's not what I would have first thought of," but that's...I guess that makes some sense. You know, one of the things I've been thinking about, right is like, I don't know, like, if you can get in things that hold value, right? You know, this is in the sort of traditional prepper sense, this is where you like run out and buy gold, right? Not because gold is an investment, it doesn't become necessarily more valuable, but it because it like, is more likely to hold its value as inflation goes up. But I would argue the same is true of hard liquor, which does not go bad. I don't even drink hard liquor, but I have a bunch of it.Ammunition. Eh Eh? Okay, this is gonna be where everyone's giving me the "We let this wingnut prepper on." But ammunition does go up and down in value. But overall, I will argue that it will stay valuable and therefore continue to hold its value against inflation. And then also like, this is where my financial friends get really mad at me. I'm like, "Basically like spend it if you've got it," because like, because money is becoming less and less valuable. So like, cash in your pocket is just losing money when it stays in your pocket. Its value goes down every day, you get fewer and fewer bananas. Brooke 24:32 Bananas. Margaret 24:32 Yeah, you have fewer bananas every day. The longer that you hold on to it. Casandra 24:36 This is making me hungry. Margaret 24:38 Yeah, I kind of want a banana. I need to go to the grocery store. But okay, so this is like for example, this is like why I'm like, "Alright, well fuck it," like, get tools. Get stuff if you can, right? Obviously, this is like kind of annoying advice for anyone who I mean like right now I think most of the money issue that people have right now is not having enough money for their basic necessities that they meet on a regular basis. But even like, like I was like, I don't know, as I try to explain someone to be like, Alright, look, if you're going to go out if you're going to spend X amount of money on canned chili over the next three months, buying it now, instead of later, if you can afford it will literally get you more chili, because the prices of everything are just going to go up. And so as you're able to fucking cans of chili are better than cash right now is my my claim, especially the good vegan chili with the little TVP in it. Brooke 25:39 Yeah, if you've got a spare dollar in your pocket today, it's going to be less valuable tomorrow. It's going to be less valuable the day after that. It's just going to keep getting less valuable as long as we're in this cycle of this high inflation. So as much as I tend to be like a saver, it does make more sense at the moment to go buy things preferably things that are like durable, useful, and will last then to... Casandra 26:08 That's still saving. Brooke 26:10 Yeah Margaret 26:11 Yeah, you're just transferring the value into a different form. Brooke 26:14 Yeah, buy some seeds. Casandra 26:15 [At the same time] My favorite form is seeds. Yeah, that's my preferred one. Margaret 26:19 Yeah. Brooke 26:20 How To books. Casandra 26:22 Like oh, I just got I got all my spring seeds for next year. Brooke 26:25 Oh, wow. Casandra 26:25 Well, yeah, just last week, because I knew they'd be way more expensive next year, and they're just in the fridge in plastic bags. Waiting. Brooke 26:34 Very smart. That's a genuinely a good investment, especially given the food supply shortages that we've got going on right now. Casandra 26:43 Yeah, what a good segue Margaret 26:44 [At that same time] What a good segue.[Everyone laughing] Hope you all like this new format of friends chatting. We'll work on it. Casandra 26:56 We're doing great! Brooke 26:57 Yeah, no, it's gonna be exactly this great every time. Margaret 27:02 Food shortages. What do you mean food shortages? That sounds like a bunch of wing nut talk. Casandra 27:11 There are no food shortages. Brooke 27:13 There's no such thing as food. Buy guns. Casandra 27:20 Eat ammo. Brooke 27:22 That's exactly what I was thinking when you said ammo and gold and I was like that's good. Those are things you can eat. We'll be fine. Margaret 27:29 Yeah, yeah. [Everyone laughing] Casandra 27:30 I think there's something to be said about the fact that you and I both have kids, Brooke. So, when I'm like oh...You know if I have 20 extra bucks, what am I putting it into? It's like it's food. Margaret 27:41 It's not whiskey? Brooke 27:45 Pretty much all the time or the next size of clothing for my child that doesn't stop growing. But But yeah, food shortages. So, that's like a really interesting and again very complicated topic. So, I work part time for a local farm as well. And here in Oregon, our spring was especially wet like it's it's...Oregeon is a fairly wet place and we get a fair amount of rain in the spring, but it was like a lot more than usual. And it stayed cold for longer. So this farm, which usually opens up the first week of June and starts selling produce had to delay by a week its start date, because there just was there weren't crops and then they're battling larger infestations of problems and new and different ones so they've had funguses, and mold, and bugs, different kinds of bugs, and greater quantity of bugs attacking their crops, and they've been sending like... Margaret 28:44 Larger bugs. Brooke 28:44 Yeah. Casandra 28:45 Yeah, the pest have gone wild up here. Margaret 28:46 Like bugs the size of cars. Brooke 28:48 Yes. Yeah, they've been sending almost weekly samples to the state, the Oregon State Extension office which is our...they do a bunch of farming program things anyway they... Casandra 29:01 OSU? Brooke 29:02 Yeah, OSU. A lot of states have extension services from their state university, anyway that that analyze like "What is this blight? What is this fungus? Why is this thing turning yellow? Why...what is causing this?" So they... Margaret 29:17 What is this language it's speaking to me and why are its eyes rotating sideways from its head. Brooke 29:22 Yeah, they test for that kind of thing too. E.T. For sure. You know, they would usually send maybe a couple of samples in a season and they've had to send like almost weekly samples for two or three months and then you know devising on the fly--because organic farm, you know, safe organic practices to combat these things. And it's, you know, required a lot of extra time and investment and attention to the farm and the crops that are going in it just to to get a healthy crop out of it. Casandra 29:56 And we're not even experiencing you know, the heat wave here that they're experiencing what, like Western Europe right now. Margaret 30:05 Yeah. And parts of the southern and central United States also. But like. Casandra 30:10 Yeah, and North Africa. Margaret 30:12 Yeah. Casandra 30:13 I was reading that in Portugal. It's so hot that farm equipment is setting dried crops on fire as they're like trying to harvest things. Brooke 30:25 Oh, wow. Casandra 30:26 Like things are that hot and dry. Growing food is becoming more difficult. That seems to be the moral of the story. Margaret 30:36 Well fortunately, I believe the biggest breadbasket of the world, or at least of Europe, is doing just fine and isn't currently being invaded by a megalomaniac, and certainly huge chunks of what's left aren't supporting someone who would invade such a place, so....Or, as I doubt this is news to anyone who is listening, but maybe it is, you know, the the war in Ukraine is fucking up well will fuck up remarkably, the harvest in Ukraine of wheat, and I believe, like it's them in the US maybe are the biggest exporters of wheat in the world. I should have looked up my actual.. I'm learning so much about how I'm gonna do this next time. Casandra 31:22 I was just reading percentages, and they fell out of my brain, but it's big. Brooke 31:27 The combination of Ukraine and Russia and it's mostly Ukraine on this, they provide 12% of the world's wheat supply. Or to put it in other terms, Ukraine's wheat feeds 400 million people a year. So like, the for scale, the population of the US, like one year's worth of wheat. So yeah, it's, it's a lot. And they're basically going to have essentially zero harvest coming out of Ukraine this year in terms of wheat. Casandra 32:01 And it's not just like not having flour on the shelf, but if you're a meat eater, you know, grain fed, grain finished...My brain just died. Brooke 32:15 Animal feed. Casandra 32:16 Thank you. Fuel and animal feed. Brooke 32:20 Cows in particular, yeah, all the little things that the grain goes into, yeah, it's very bad. And, you know, we in the US might not experience as much of that being a wealthy country that's more insulated. Like one of the readings I was doing was talking about how, of course, Africa will be one of the most impacted continents by all of this because it has the highest rate of imports of food from other places, because so much of its inhospitable to growing or growing large quantities of food. And they often get the short end of the stick when there's global supply chain issues. Margaret 32:56 And it's not just the US' position as wealthy. It's that we grow...I think I, I think we're the largest exporter of food in the world, I again, really have learned so much about the kind of stuff I'm going to look up before I start recording next time. Brooke 33:12 Yeah, California, grows like some percentage of the entire world's...just California State of California alone grows an appreciable percent of the world's food supply. Margaret 33:25 Not to just drive home the animal agriculture point, but wow, it sure takes so much more grain to feed a cow to then turn around to feed a person than to just feed the grain to the person. Whooa! Anyway, if I'm gonna get accused of propaganda. Casandra 33:44 But Margaret, I can't eat grain. Margaret 33:46 Yeah, no, I know. That's actually why I don't believe in, everyone should do X. There's very few things I would say everyone should do, and that certainly, certainly applies to diet more than almost anything else. People should do, what they need and what their bodies want. And also what their, you know, local environment sustains most effectively and all those things. Casandra 34:14 I was listening to a podcast yesterday about food shortages that I'm going to forget the name of now. Brooke 34:19 There are other podcasts? Casandra 34:21 There are other podcasts like this? Wild. Margaret 34:24 Cool People Who Do Cool Stuff? Casandra 34:26 No, it wasn't that one, I'm sorry, Margaret. Margaret 34:28 Wait, there's a third podcast? Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness? Casandra 34:33 Is it Behind The Bastards? Is that the? Margaret 34:35 Oh, yeah, I guess they do technically... Brooke 34:37 Are they still allowed to have a podcast? I thought we shut that down. Casandra 34:42 Anyway, Margaret 34:44 So you can't start with another podcast because it takes too much grain. Casandra 34:49 Noooo! Brooke 34:52 That's the title of this episode now. Margaret 34:57 It's called interrupting Casandra. That's the name of the podcast. Brooke 35:01 I love you, Casandra. I'm sorry. Casandra 35:03 You guys, my brain can't hold a thought for that long. Brooke 35:06 Understood. Casandra 35:08 Okay, so I was listening to this, what I would call like a progressive podcast. And I'm usually really annoyed with the like, "We can solve climate change and world hunger by eating locally." But when we're talking about, you know, International food shortage crises, that does seem like one of the more manageable solutions. And we were talking in the chat prior to this episode noticing that I feel really grateful for my CSA share this summer. Because I paid for it, you know, months ago, which means that, you know, if we're going back to the banana analogy, Margaret 35:52 The value hold on. Brooke 35:53 I mean, that is very accurate. You know, we've got, we've got eggs included in the CSA that I work on. And, you know, we do a small markup on that just to cover all the logistics of getting the eggs from the egg supplier. But she had to raise prices at the start of the season. And we'll probably have to raise them again, like in the fall. But if you signed up for the CSA, and that included eggs in your particular box, your price gets to be set, right where it is. Casandra 36:26 Yeah, it's hard, though, right, because especially when we're talking about prepping like one of...I get annoyed with prepping conversations, because oftentimes, people either don't have the space to store large quantities of things or the money to buy things in bulk. And I would consider paying for a CSA ahead of time buying a thing in bulk, or similar, you know, similar impact. And it's hard because a lot of people can't do that. Like, I was hurting for a few months, because the payment came out. I was like, "Oh, yeah, that thing I said I'd pay for." I'm glad I did it. But... Margaret 37:06 Okay, but. [Brooke interupts] Go ahead....Okay, so there is a community solution to this, though. So you can't eat ammunition. But if you have enough ammunition and friends....This thing that happened in history, that should never happen again, because it was violent, during the Spanish Civil War, people collectivized all the farms. Brooke 37:32 Wrong podcast. Wrong podcast. Margaret 37:34 No, but see, see, this is... Casandra 37:36 Did they do it with dinosaurs? Margaret 37:39 I've heard that dinosaurs were involved. They...I at least read one story about that. But, you know, it...I means it's funny to me, right? Because it's like, on some level, okay, so individual solutions are complicated, because they involve certain types of resources. A lot of community solutions are good. And they're working to set up different kinds of like small scale agriculture that you can do within a community and mutual aid organizations that can take care of people and help fill in some holes and different people's, like, dietary needs and stuff like that. But it's like, it's so frustrating, because honestly, like, like, a lot of the solutions to these problems are destroy the existing infrastructure and build an infrastructure, well, not even the infrastructure, the systems that control the current infrastructure, and enter them into a more reasonable and equitable method of distribution. But obviously that has some risks associated with it. So I don't know, I guess, I guess sometimes I get like, frustrated, because it's like, you know, we're all like, kind of trying to be like, "Okay, how do we deal with these issues in this issue," and it's like, and we should figure out how to do it on these, like, smaller scales, but it's like, so frustrating because I think so many people like, kind of have a sense of like, what the grander solution is, and just don't know how to fucking do it. Casandra 39:01 Yep. Margaret 39:01 Including me, I don't know how to do it. Although in 1936...Anyway. Casandra 39:07 Were you gonna say something, Brooke? Brooke 39:10 One way to help solve the problem of food supplies in a very small way, amongst you and your friends: We grow things more efficiently when we focus on growing one thing at a time. So we've talked about on the pod growing, starting a garden, even a single container on your balcony kind of thing. But ,if you have a friend or a couple of friends that can also do a little gardening, maybe talking amongst yourselves and have each of you grow a specific thing or a couple of specific things. And they have each of the three of you be different. And that way you can focus on doing a good job of growing a couple of things. And they can do a good job growing their couple of things and then you can exchange the produce as it starts to ripen because it'll be more than you want. Casandra 40:01 I like that. When you said one thing my brain was like, "But polyculture!?" Brooke 40:06 Yeah, sorry, I'm thinking of like, if I can get everyone on my street to, you know, grow something in their backyard, and we all had one different crop, you know, just this whole weird place that my brain goes to that would be beautiful. But the other thing about the the food shortages, the crop growing problems, and all of that that I wanted to point out is how much this is an immediate future problem. Like, right now we're having all of these problems growing things and creating the food. And what we're eating for a lot of the part is if you're eating dry foods, packaged foods and stuff that was grown maybe last year in a previous growing season. So where we're going to start to see this pinch, even worse is going to be later this year and into next year, when we're going to buy things that were grown in a previous season. Except they weren't, because Ukraine didn't export any grain or because all of the black bean crops failed, or what have you. So it's going to get worse very soon, because of that kind of problem. Margaret 41:15 Yay. Yeah. Brooke 41:20 Thinking about growing a thing, like right now before that problem really hits home, and then you'll suddenly have some food growing on your back porch, or whatever. Casandra 41:29 That also makes me grateful for...this is probably an option in other areas, not just where we are, but Brooke and I are part of a co op. And we can purchase things through companies at wholesale prices. So like, I just put in an order for like 10 pounds of salt and 25 pounds of beans and, you know, makes me grateful for options like that. Brooke 41:59 Yeah, bulk buying. Margaret 42:02 And that's like, kind of the origins of food co ops, as far as I understand it is that, you know, now we have this conception. And I feel like most people are like, "Why would a food co-op be cheaper food co-ops are more expensive, because like food co-op is like practically just like, a way of saying super bougie independent grocery store with natural food. And the origin of food cooperatives is basically people pulling together and saying like, well, "We want to buy a bunch of food. So let's act like we're a store and go to the distributor, and put in orders together." And those do still exist in various places. And also, not everything that call itself a food Co-Op is just bougie and shitty and like, some of them are very good. Brooke 42:44 I would say ours isnt...wasn't. At least that's from my very biased perspective. Margaret 42:50 Wasn't good or wasn't bad? Brooke 42:52 Wasn't bougie wasn't bougie. Margaret 42:54 Ah.Yeah. Brooke 42:56 Can I go back to Casandra, you mentioned, the heatwave stuff happening in Europe and crops catching on fire. I had read last week about this heatwave that was coming in Europe and some of the problems they anticipated having but I have not had time this week to like catch up on what actually happened. And I think both of you guys have been paying more attention to that news. And I'm curious if you want to enlighten me and perhaps our listeners about the actual effects of that heatwave in addition to farming equipment catching crops on fire. Which is bad. Casandra 43:29 Part of a glacier collapsed in Italy. Margaret 43:34 They still have glaciers there? Casandra 43:36 Apparently. Margaret 43:38 You ever get depressed, you ever go to Glacier National Park and just been sad, because you're like, it's just full of signs that are like, "There used to be a glacier here." and you're like, "This sucks." Brooke 43:48 That would be depressing. Margaret 43:49 It's really beautiful. Anyways. Brooke 43:51 What is what does it mean, the glacier collapsed, like a portion fell over? Casandra 43:55 Like an avalanche, like a portion of this glacier collapsed and it killed 11 people, but it's just also a testament to how hot it was. Iran was like 126 degrees. Casandra 43:59 There was something about the railways, the rail lines that so was having problems. Margaret 44:17 Yeah. So, TERF Island is this island off of the coast of Europe. That is ruled by, it's still a monarchy, and it's ruled by J.K. Rowling, Queen of the TERFS. But unfortunately, most of her subjects actually wish they didn't live on a place called TERF Island, and wish that they could go back to just being embarrassed about having colonized most of the world. That's also worth being embarrassed about anyway, yeah, England, TERF Island, is pretty fuck right now, and I mean, the same as the rest of Europe, right. But, England is normally a dreary, overcast place and that's why everyone has turned their head against so many people. And so they are...And so their their rail infrastructure is designed, you can build railways for cold, and you can build railways for heat, but it's like actually kind of hard to build railways for both. Because you have these, like, long chunks of steel, these rails, right, and they warp. And as people want to go faster and quieter, they are now continuous rails that are welded into like one continuous thing. Which means that when they distort in the heat or contract in the cold or whatever, it's a bigger issue, right? So, their rail system, at least as we record right now is just like fucked. And like, a lot of the rails aren't running or if they are running, they're running really slowly to not, like, I believe, cause additional heat and cause additional problems. I actually don't remember exactly why going slowly is the solution to this. But it's like such as like a clear example....And then they're having this thing where, and I'm sure this happens everywhere. But they're particularly good at being like, cozy during crisis that's like part of the national character as far as I can tell. And so they're like, "Oh, this isn't a big deal." And like, they had this heatwave in 1976. And so they're all like, "Oh, this is just like 1976." But and 1976 was bad, right? But there hasn't been like more and more heat more and more times, right? That was a little bit of an outlier year. Whereas they're constantly breaking all these records. And it's just, it's fucking everything up. And I hate...I want...I sort of hate that I know more about this than I know about some of the stuff that's going on in Iran, or I know that very recently, India has had really massive heat waves that have caused a lot of problems. I know... Casandra 46:35 China. Margaret 46:36 Yeah. Yeah. And, but there's this sort of like, I don't know, at least by the way, people are talking about it who are not in England. I almost feel like there's this like, Oh, thank god if this happens to the English and to the white Americans, like maybe something will start happening. And because like just seen as like these like centers of power or whatever, but people are very resistant to actually believing anything's wrong. But it's really obviously something wrong. Casandra 47:06 Oh my gosh. But, you know what people are willing to believe is wrong? Margaret 47:12 What? Casandra 47:14 People are willing to believe that our globalist overlords at CERN have shifted our dimension multiple times and opened a gateway to Hell, and summonned Satan. And that's why everything's bad. Margaret 47:33 Please Explain. Casandra 47:34 It can't be climate change, it has to be a Stranger Things portal...run by the Jews. Margaret 47:43 I was about to ask if the Jews were involved. I thought you all were busy with the space laser. Casandra 47:48 Always. God, if only we had an actualy space laser. Margaret 47:53 I know! You all multitask so well, like you're busy running the space laser. I mean, I guess thats.. Casandra 47:59 It's because we rest one whole day a week that we have all this energy. Brooke 48:02 Hey, wait a minute, Mormons do too, but we do not have space lasers. So.... Casandra 48:07 You have like alien and tablets and shit. Margaret 48:08 Yeah, Catholics don't rest. Wait, so please explain more. So there. Okay. So CERN is the the miniature black hole creator, right. [Brooke and Casandra laugh skeptically] Wait, at that point. I thought I wasn't even lying. I thought that was what it does. Like it investigates...Am I wrong? Casandra 48:29 It's, it's.... Brooke 48:31 It's a particle accelerator. Margaret 48:32 Yeeah Casandra 48:33 No, it's not. It's a group. It's a group. CERN isn't even the thing itself. CERN is the like group that does the research. Margaret 48:39 Oh, like the Zionist Cabal or whatever. Casandra 48:44 Yeah, and it's been around since the 50s and they do like particle physics shit that I don't understand. You know, finding new particles, researching antimatter, potentially creating mini black holes, apparently. Margaret 49:00 Do you think antimatter gets mad at regular matter? Like kind of like an Antifa versus FA kind of thing? Brooke 49:08 Well, matter wins over antimatter. So I mean, it can get mad all it wants. It loses the battle. Casandra 49:13 So they're trying to find, you know, proof of like the Big Bang and doing all these....But then, so it's been around for a long time. It's been around since the 50s I think. But, I want to say the facility, the particle collider...this is gonna be the funniest explanation because none of us understand it fully. But, apparently the facility is like 17 miles wide, and most of its underground and it looks very like you know, Stranger Things, Sci Fi, space AG. Brooke 49:52 It's that wide because it's a giant metal circle. So it's not actually like taking up 17 miles, but like you're able to go from one end of this metal tube to the other like it is that far apart. Margaret 50:03 Yeah, it's like a roller derby rink. Brooke 50:07 Yeah, more or less. Margaret 50:10 Or it will be. Casandra 50:10 Yeah, so all these conspiracy theorists for years now I think particularly since 2012, have decided that the reason things continue to be bad is that...there are multiple theories, but one is that the world actually ended in 2012. Another is that each time they turn on this particle collider, we like shift timelines. So that's happened in like, 2012, 2016. And then just this last July 5, apparently. It's just fascinating to me, the lengths people will go to to explain bad shit happening rather than just like, accepting climate change. Margaret 50:53 Yeah. Casandra 50:54 Or like, pausing to understand capitalism and its function. And it's like, "Nope, it's gotta be a black hole to Satan." Brooke 51:03 This is especially funny to me, because the, the collider literally takes like, the like, the tiniest little bits of matter. Like it tries to get down to like a single atom, and then sends it through this giant tube to smash into each other. And I'm like, Yeah, so you're telling me that like, two oxygen molecules smashing into each other, is what's opening multiple timelines? Casandra 51:29 And it's stuff that's like, only comprehensible and interesting to physicists, as far as I can understand. Like, if you look at their list of achievements, none of that makes sense to a normal human being. You know? Margaret 51:45 I kind of like some of that stuff. But I read a lot of science fiction. Casandra 51:49 Yeah, I have an ex who's like, really into both space and physics, and is really fascinated by some of the work they've done. But yeah, it doesn't make sense to me at all. And it doesn't make sense to the conspiracy theorists either. Brooke 52:07 Okay, so we're running out of food. Europe's on fire. Casandra 52:13 Not just Europe, apparently North Africa, China, India, the southern United States, Brooke 52:18 Most of the world in the last two years has burned down in one way or another. We're opening black hole portals. No one can buy a house. Casandra 52:27 What's that, Margaret? Margaret 52:29 Oh, just always the wrong parts of it are burning down. Casandra 52:32 Right Margaret 52:33 I mean, well with the exception of the Third Precinct. Brooke 52:35 Yes. Margaret 52:36 Notable. Notable Exception. Casandra 52:39 We're still figuring out how to aim the space laser. Margaret 52:44 Okay, okay. So it was actually you all. It wasn't actually Dark Biden. Casandra 52:48 Oh, no. Marjorie Taylor Greene blamed the wildfires. Margaret 52:52 On the space lasers? Casandra 52:53 That's how the spacel laser thing started. Margaret 52:55 Oh, my God. Really? Why would you burn down the forest? Is her claim that you all don't know how to aim it? Casandra 53:06 Let me find this was... Margaret 53:08 What is your [Marjorie's] rationale for why the Jews have decided to start forest fires? It it seems to me that even if I....There are other targets that I could imagine, as an anti-semitic conspiracy theorist that I would imagine that the Jews would point the space laser at. Casandra 53:26 Right? Let me try to...let me see if I can find the exact tweet because it was really funny. Oh, all I can find is spoof tweets in my quick search. Brooke 53:35 I feel bad for you having to read through Marjorie Taylor Green's tweets right now. That's a punishment you do not deserve. Casandra 53:42 The like wingnut anti-Semites kind of crack me up. I don't know why she would blame it on that. I have no idea. It's... Casandra 53:49 I mean, Q'anon ties into the whole thing. Margaret 53:50 Well, let's come up with it. Margaret 53:51 Oh, yeah. Brooke 53:53 Casandra, do your people hate forests? Casandra 53:57 Forests? Brooke 53:58 Yes. Casandra 53:59 No, of course not. We actually have a whole holiday dedicated to trees. Margaret 54:05 Whoa, that's cool. Casandra 54:06 Tu BiShvat. We liked the trees. Margaret 54:15 Well, maybe you are trying to....No, I don't even want to. I'm trying to come up with anti-semetic conspiracy theorists. But I don't want to do it. I can't do it. Brooke 54:25 Here's a news thing that we didn't talk about in our briefing. And I don't know if we care to right now. But, are y'all paying any attention to the whole January 6th committee things? They just had one last night. Margaret 54:36 Yeah, a little bit. Casandra 54:37 No, I didn't read about last night. Brooke 54:40 I am mostly not paying attention as well, except that I see these tweets of people being like, "Oh my gosh, did you know blah, blah, blah." And most of it's like all along I feel like yeah, that's been reported on already. We already knew about that. Why is this news? Margaret 54:54 That's kind of how I feel about it. I like maybe maybe it's not fair. Bu,t I kind of just say this political theater at this point like we we all know what they did. We watched it. And we all know what their organizations look like. Anti-fascists have done the infiltration work and released all of the...like everything anyone has ever said to each other that's a fascist in the United States has been released by anti-fascists, not the government. And so in some ways, I'm a little bit like...and maybe it's not right, maybe, maybe I should care more about it. But in my mind, I'm a little bit like, I've moved on to the next news cycle issue in my head, and it feels like kind of like...remember how we were like waiting forever for them to impeach Trump? And they're like, "We swear we're going to impeach Trump soon." And I'm like, is this whole thing just a way for The Washington Post to sell newspapers? And that's more...again, more than is fair, how I how I feel a little bit about January, 6th, it's just like, Okay, y'all found something that you can milk for? I don't know.... Casandra 56:05 I mean the too little too late sort of encapsulates our response to most things, right. Margaret 56:12 Yeah. Casandra 56:12 Whether it's climate change or insurrection. Brooke 56:15 Now the one good thing that did that did come out of last night's was little video of Senator Josh Hawley running away from the rioters. And then all the people on Twitter who use that little video and set it to various pieces of music. Casandra 56:33 Finding moments of joy. Margaret 56:35 He's the guy who supported....he's the guy who was supporting them beforehand, right? Brooke 56:40 Yeah, he's the one with like the really well known fist raised in support picture rightbefore they started destroying everything. Margaret 56:47 I never thought that the leopards eating people's faces party would eat my face...Well, does that seem like a decent spot to end it for July? Nothing bad can happen in the next week.There's gonna be like at least a.... Casandra 57:06 I think we wanted to give people more hope you know, like more tools, or ideas? Or even just like... Margaret 57:16 Oh, right. Buy whiskey. Build a bunker. Hole up Brooke 57:19 Tanks are bad. Casandra 57:20 If you live in wildfire country like we do those plastic windows... Brooke 57:26 Blame the Jews. Casandra 57:27 Blame the Jews. We can say that because I'm a Jew. I want to make that really clear. Before we put this podcast out. No, buy those plastic windows sealer kits and fresh filters for your air filters. Margaret 57:45 Yeah, do it before they're needed. That's part of the supply chain stuff. Brooke 57:50 Plant a zucchini, Casandra 57:51 Planted zucchini with your neighbors and trade them with each other. Margaret 57:57 What if everyone just grows zucchini? Casandra 58:00 Zucchini's really versatile. You know. Brooke 58:01 Zucchini and potatoes. Margaret 58:02 That was the main thing that my mom grew. My mom grew mostly zucchini. And so it was just like nothing, nothing, nothing and then everything is made out of zucchini for like two weeks. And I actually loved it because we ate so much zucchini bread and it was so good. Casandra 58:17 Yeah. Brooke 58:18 They're relatively easy, like if you haven't gardened before and you need something to garden that'll make you feel really good and successful. Like they're easier to grow you know a little harder to kill than, and then when they start producing like you get these big zucchinis and like if you completely ignore them, you can get these like just monstrous beasts and it's just really satisfying to grow zucchini. Casandra 58:41 I never grow zucchini because I always have friends who grow zucchini and have too much. Brooke 58:45 Yes. As zucchini does. Casandra 58:49 Anyway. Brooke 58:50 Grow zucchini. Margaret 58:52 This podcast is brought to you by zucchini. Okay, what's another hopeful? Don't rush out and buy a garage door right now if you can avoid it. Turn your basement fear into a kiddie pool full of kibble. Casandra 59:15 If your garage door privileged you can just like revel in that. Margaret 59:18 Yeah. Brooke 59:20 Genuinely you know, pet food is an example of a thing where if you're gonna go if you have some extra money and you're gonna go invest it quote unquote, in something pet food will hold up and your pet will need food. So instead of bananas buy pet food. Margaret 59:34 If you do buy bananas, you have to put them in you have to peel them and put them in the freezer if you want them to last and then you've turned them into smoothies. Casandra 59:43 That's the only good way to eat a banana anyway. Controversial take Brooke 59:48 I do not agree. Margaret 59:50 Yeah, I just...Huh, I thought we I thought we were friends. Casandra 59:58 I just lost to friends. Brooke 1:00:05 I just know not to bring bananas over your house. They won't be safe. Margaret 1:00:09 Well they are safe. Casandra 1:00:09 You can use them perfectly for smoothies and banana bread. How do we end this? Margaret 1:00:21 We we like can do this, right? Like all this like bad shits happening, but like the reason to talk about all this bad shit that's happening is to stare soberly into the face of what's coming. Not so that we like, give up and like, it's not the part in the movie where the "Run there's a monster," and then the monster eats everyone. It's the part where you're standing on the bulwark of the--I watch love fantasy movies--the bulwark of the castle and you look out and there's the gathering storm and the hordes of usually poorly racially designed enemies...is coming...now I just feel bad about using this analogy. I love Lord of the Rings, but i was not... Casandra 1:01:03 The new Lord of the Rings is about to come out. Margaret 1:01:05 Yeah. Casandra 1:01:05 Apparently it's more racially fair and equitable and diverse. Margaret 1:01:09 Yeah. That's good. And I personally more than I probably should think Tolkien would have listened to some of this criticisms since he like, like, when the Nazis came to Tolkien, and were like, "Hey, we love your story, are you Aryan?" and he got really fucking mad. And he was like, they like he was like, "If you're asking if I'm Jewish, I am sad to say that I am not, but fuck all of you forever." So anyway. he's not a perfect man. Casandra 1:01:43 Comrade Tolkien. Margaret 1:01:45 But I think he, I think he meant, well, we all know that intentions are what matters. Okay. So but this is the part of the movie where you're staring out at the, you know, the bad thing is coming, right? And it is a big, bad thing. And we can't just all go back to bed and be like, "Oh, the government will take care of this for us, right?" Because the government is one of the things that's out there gathering and the big fucking mass. Well parts of it, because governments are made out of people. And some parts of it will probably stop being part of the government when bad things happen. But... well like the National Guard like gives food to the like mutual aid groups and like that they're supposed to give to Red Cross, like this has happened sometimes. They're like, "Oh, shit, y'all actually put things where they're supposed to go." And they like help the anarchists instead of the bureaucracies, because they're people. But, we can do this. We can look, we can see what's happening, we can face it, we can communicate with other people about what we're facing. We can work together to get through this. And, and I genuinely believe that and that's why I do this podcast. And that's why my basement is full of kibble. And um... Casandra 1:02:54 We're all gonna come swim in it. Margaret 1:02:55 Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's probably gonna be full of rats by that time, but you know. Margaret 1:03:01 Yeah! Brooke 1:03:01 Rats are food...too. Margaret 1:03:01 I'm like a rat farmer in my basement. That's a turn you never expected from Ol' Margaret. Brooke 1:03:01 Rats need food too. Casandra 1:03:14 Vegan turned rat farmer. Margaret 1:03:17 That's still vegan. Brooke 1:03:21 Okay, so this segment is... Casandra 1:03:24 Devolving. Margaret 1:03:25 Alright. And, so thank you all so much for listening. If you enjoy this podcast, please tell people about it. You can tell people about it on the internet. And you can tell people about it not on the internet. And both of those things are good, because not in person. Because on the internet is good because of algorithms and in person is good because that's a better way to live your life. She said while living alone and on the top of a mountain. And also, if you want to support us more directly, you can do so by sponsoring our Patreon. We are published by Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness, which is a anarchists collective that is dedicated to creating culture and good stuff. Sometimes we do theory, but that's like not our thing. It's like almost like we try and kind of do the other stuff around. And you can support us by following us on Patreon or by supporting us on Patreon patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. If you sponsor us at $10 or more a month, we will send you a zine anywhere in the world for free every month. If you sponsors at all, you'll get access to the digital copy, even before other people get access. I think usually we're good at that. Sometimes. Most of the time. We're still getting our shit together. But there's lots of good content. We have bunch of books coming out. We have another podcast you can check out called Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness, which is the monthly zine, but it is available to everyone and then it also follows with an interview with the Creator talking about their process. It's really good. You should check it out. Do either of you to have anything to plug before I? Casandra 1:04:58 I just got this book in the mail that I did the art for that you might know about. Margaret 1:05:03 Yeah, what is it? Casandra 1:05:06 It's your book. Margaret. Margaret 1:05:07 I have a book? Casandra 1:05:08 Yeah. You have a book coming out. Margaret 1:05:09 Is it called "We Won't Be Here Tomorrow. I have a book of short stories that's coming out called "We Won't Be Here Tomorrow." It comes out September 20. From AK Press, which is a collectively run anarchist publisher, which rules and if you order it now you get art print made by Casandra. Well, drawn by Cassandra. It's probably made by a printer somewhere. The prints part of it anyway, and it illustrates one of my stories and also Casandra did the cover art, and it's really beautiful. So, you should check it out. And in particular, we want to thank some of our Patreon backers. We want to thank Hoss the dog, Chris, Sam, Micaiah, Kirk, Natalie, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Cat J, Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Oxalis, Paige, and SJ. Thank you so much for for making this possible. And yeah, I hope you all are doing as well as you can with everything that's going on. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co
Episode Notes Episode summary: Margaret talks with Mixael from the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective about access to different medical technologies, biohacking access, and how the medical industrial complex complicates that. They talk about the importance of being able to audit medical access and ways you can build medical infrastructure in your own communities. They talk about old projects like the DIY Epi Pencil as well as new projects they are revealing, which include new ways to access medicines for abortion, regimens forpairing emergency contraception with PReP, and potential medicines for the treatment of Long Covid. About the Guest: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective is an anarchist collective dedicated to bringing access medicines and medical technologies to those who need them but don't have them. This is done primarily by publishing DIY methodologies for taking responsibility for one's own health by building your own medical devices, manufacturing your own ingredients, or compounding medications yourself. They can be found at https://fourthievesvinegar.org/ or on Twitter @4ThievesVinegar Host Info: Margaret Killjoy can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info: This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Four Thieves Vinegar Collective on The Promise of DIY Pharmaceutical Abortions Margaret 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like The World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. And this week, we've got a special treat for you or i dunno if it's a treat. But, it's a really interesting episode. And, I think you might get as much out of it as I do. On this episode, I'll be talking with Four Thieves Vinegar Collective, who we've talked to before. They're basically people who do DIY wet chemistry and teach people how to make their own medications. And this time, they're going to be talking about how people could choose to make their own abortion medications, and also even some Long Covid drugs that have some promising successes and many other things besides, so a lot to dig into. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network da da ba da buh baa! Jingle 01:12 What's up, y'all? I'm Pierson host of coffee with comrades. Coffee with comrades is rooted in militant joy. Our hope is to cultivate a warm and inviting atmosphere, like walking into your favorite coffee shop to sit down with some of your close friends and share a heart to heart conversation. New episodes premiere every Tuesday, so be sure to smash that subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts so that you never miss an episode. We are proud to be a part of the Channel Zero network. Margaret 02:06 Okay, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns and then I guess a little bit about Four Thieves Vinegar Collective and what it is you all do? Mixael 02:19 Yeah, my name is Mixael Laufer, I prefer to take whatever pronouns the person addressing me seems are appropriate of the moment. And the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective is an anarchist collective devoted to bringing access to medicines and medical technologies to people who need them, but don't have them. And we're fairly agnostic about the methodologies that we use to try to bring that into being. So, we do a lot of different things, and including trying to find ways to build DIY medical devices. We do a lot with chemistry, and devising ways that people can build the active pharmaceutical ingredients of drugs that they might need. And we also look at methodologies and strategies by which people can acquire the things they need through non traditional channels. So, either looking for drugs that are packaged for other purposes, or looking for things that are closely related, that you might be able to get and convert into what you need. And that's what I spend most of my time doing, I'm the chief spokesperson for the collective. And, I do a lot of work in logistics. So, mostly I take people who are subject matter experts of different types and I try to make sure they have the tools and materials that they need, and that the information they need and the information that they have gets shuttled to the other subject matter experts with whom they work so that we can eventually release literature and guides for people to be able to take control of their own health and hopefully have a better quality of life. Margaret 04:18 So, basically, what you all do is you're decentralized collective of people who've research ways to open source different medical technology, drugs and physical equipment, and then make that open source like show people how to make it and make the tools available for people to make it themselves? Mixael 04:37 Yeah, so that is exactly correct. And to be a little more specific just for your listeners, we don't do any research of our own. We're not developing any new tools. We mostly are hijacking existing tools. We're looking for medical technologies that we already know work. We don't do things like clinical trials or try to develop new drugs that nobody's ever heard of. We look for things that are on the shelf, but inaccessible things that are perhaps not legal for various reasons, perhaps things that have merely not come into the marketplace because they weren't profitable, but still are effective, things that perhaps weren't approved because they were effective, but only in a small margin of the population, and, or in events where they're really inaccessible because the price has been jacked up too high. Or if you happen to be in a situation where the infrastructure just can't reach you, for whatever reason, either due to sclerotic bureaucracy, and you just can't get your insurance provider to give you what you need, or you might be in a rural place where there just isn't a pipeline to get such things. So yeah, we're, we look to take things that are already established that they work and try and get them to the people who need them. Margaret 06:02 So what are some examples of the...I know, we're going to be talking about some of the new products that you all have been working on in a moment, but what are some of the examples of existing things that you all have done that you've released that people are on their own using and accessing right now, because of you all's work? Mixael 06:20 Yeah. So the thing that we are ironically best known for was just a sort of side project that happened, but when, when Heather Bresch was lying in front of Congress about why she jacked up the prices of the epi pen, you had a lot of people knocking on our door, saying, "Why aren't you doing something about the epi pen?" So we put together a project that we lovingly and playfully called The Epi Pencil Project that allows you to make in an open source reloadable version that costs $30, to build and about $3, to reload. And that garnered a lot of attention just because it was very timely. And that was fun, and felt good. And, you know, I still get letters from people saying that they're using it. And it's it's good to know that that technology is out there and that people are benefiting from it. Our sort of flagship project that I believe you and I talked about last time is the Apothecary MicroLab, which is an open source, automated chemical reactor that helps you walk through the process of doing organic chemistry if you're trying to synthesize on active pharmaceutical ingredient of a particular drug, and it will help you through the things that are easy for a machine to do, but are easy for a human to mess up. And then it will ask you to sort of help it are the things that are difficult for machine to do but easy for human. Margaret 07:46 What kind of successes have y'all had with getting this stuff out in the world? You're saying that you've you know, met people who use the Epi Pencil, like, have you? Have you seen widespread adoption? Is it mostly within the hacker community? Like what kind of reach do y'all currently have and what kind of reach are y'all working towards? Mixael 08:04 Well, we don't really know. And I don't think we really have a goal as to reach. And this is a really sort of central tenet of our philosophy is that we're not looking to try to get what we have out there in a certain volume, because we don't want to be supplanting an infrastructure that we're trying to offer an alternative to. The idea is that we build some tools, and those tools are available. And ultimately, the decision as to whether somebody wants to use those tools or thinks it's necessary to use those tools, or even thinks it's a good idea, or wise or foolish to use those tools really lies with the end user. I mean, and this is really important, right? Because the thing is, is we're not saying "Hey, you should use our stuff instead of the regular stuff." Instead, what we're trying to say is, look, you shouldn't be stuck in the position where either the medical infrastructure serves you the way it's supposed to, or you shrug and just continue to suffer or wait to die. You should have the option of taking things into your own hands. And plenty of people don't want to do that for any number of reasons. And that's their personal decision. The goal here is to make it possible for people to have an alternative option where they previously didn't. And so, because of all of that, we work very, very hard to not try to push what we create as "Hey, you should use what we do." It's, "Here's what we did. We think it's kind of cool, and we hope you look at it carefully and make up your own mind thoughtfully." And at the same time, like, we don't go trying to chase down people who've used it to say, "Hey, you know, give us a good review on Yelp," or whatever. It's...the idea is that it's out there, right? The idea is that it's out there in terms of reach the... Margaret 10:18 But how are you going to become a millionaire if you don't sell it? [laughing] Mixael 10:22 Yeah, right? I get that question all the time. And. [both laughing] And, yes, that sort of giggle is typically what comes out of me. Margaret 10:35 yeah, yeah. Mixael 10:37 So, so it's...the one the one thing that I think about in terms of that sometimes is I think about people who might want to use what we've created, but don't know that it exists yet. I like to get the message out there a little bit. And it was interesting, too, because we're revamping the website currently. And the, in a group of, of people who are doing the redesign. One of them isn't from a really strong anarchists background, and was looking at this, this new look that we have, it's like, so pretty, and I'm so excited. It's got this like green neon noir look. And there's like splatters of ink and stuff. And he said to me, he's like, "I am concerned that this, this gritty look that you are pushing for is going to turn some people off." And I said, "Uh huh." And he said, "But don't we want to get as many people as possible to the website." And I said, "Absolutely not. What we'd like is we'd like to get as many people who like what we do and appreciate it to our website. And I promise you that if you try to polish this up, like some corpo thing all of our gutter punk friends are going to see that and run. But make it gritty, we're raising a flag saying "You're one of us. Welcome home."" And there was this long silence. And then finally he said, "Understood, thank you." So yeah, so in terms of like reach, I, I want to reach more of our people, you know, I want to reach more of the people who would use the sort of stuff that we do. And when we get these big splashes in mainstream media, it's very weird, because we get a lot of praise from people who kind of pay lip service to like the idea that they think they like what we do, but they don't [pause] like deep down. And it's so bizarre, because I remember, I remember I had been invited shortly after that project to speak at the Sloan School at MIT. And so I was with a bunch of kind of normies. So, after the after the epi pencil droped. And, and so we're having dinner, and like this woman, I think she was from NASA. And she's sitting next to me. And, and like, and just to be clear, like this conversation that I'm about to recount is typical. Like, I've had the same conversation with a lot of people like her. But, she was from NASA. And she said, "Oh, I heard about the Epi Pencil Project. It's really so great that you're making this accessible. My," I don't know, husband or niece or whatever, "has some sort of anaphylactic shock that she goes into when blah, blah, blah, happens. It's really so wonderful to see you do this." And I said, "Oh, thanks." And I said, "So did you build one?" And the inevitable response was, " Hahahaha, God no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I bought it. But, it's really great that you're doing that." And I was like, "Excuse me, I think I'm in the wrong seat." Margaret 13:55 Yeah, I mean, I can, I can understand being like, "Well, I have the resources. So I'm gonna buy this one that's like, I expect to be dependable." In a weird way, though. It's almost like saying, "I want to trust an expert rather than trust my own expertise", right, like, because-- Mixael 14:17 It's even weirder than that. Yeah. But this is exactly the point. The the phenomenon that you point out is spot on. It's...because I've dug into this a lot, because I've come across it so much, but it's so bizarre. And the thing that's strange is that they want to put faith into an infrastructure that they can't audit. And it's so counterintuitive, because you think that will be the opposite of what you want. But the reason that they want it so badly is that when you do not have the power to check then you're absolved from the responsibility of checking. Margaret 15:01 Ah, yeah, uh huh. Mixael 15:01 And this offloading this outsourcing of responsibility is something that I find over and over and over again, is so very appealing to people. Where if you, if you take something on then if it goes wrong, it's your fault. While if you have an infrastructure supporting you, if something goes wrong, well, that's just bad luck, right? It's a nobody's fault. And there's this this bizarre, this bizarre sort of like blind eyed psychology that happens when you say, "Well, I trust that the infrastructure in place is going to take the best care of me that it can. And that is more comfortable, because I don't have to worry that if something goes wrong that I am blameworthy." And this is terribly ironic, on multiple levels. And it is the most ironic, especially with the Epi Pencil Project, and not to like harken back to this little little thing that we did. But, right after we did that, there was a recall of something like 65,000 epi pens, because they were failing. Margaret 16:20 Huh, Yeah. Mixael 16:21 And the number of tragic stories that came out were just innumerable, of, you know, some poor little girl had a airplane meal that like had a peanut in it or something, and her throat starts to swell shut, and her father hits her with the epi pen, and it fails, and he's got a second one, and that one fails, and he's 30,000 feet in the air somewhere over the ocean and just has to watch her die, because you can't take the thing apart and make it work unless you're trained in like how to break it properly. If instead, he'd made it himself, like, there'd be no way for it to fail. It's it's an auto injector. And if something went wrong with the mechanism, you just unscrew it and you use the syringe. There's there's...and it's just it's I don't know, it's it's maddening sometimes when you hear about these tragic stories where people either thoughtfully or thoughtlessly have put all of this trust in in an infrastructure which heartlessly fails them and feels no remorse when it does. It's just a matter of business. Like, that's what, that's the American Way. Margaret 17:32 Yeah. I mean, that's the that's a an easy microcosm of a very large political truth. And that that's what people want. That's why people trust police. That's why they essentially give up their agency in order to...Well, I mean, in some ways, like, you know, I understand the desire to not have to think about everything I do, right? Like, it's nice, that some stuff... Mixael 18:00 Sure. Margaret 18:00 ...someone else takes care of, like, my friend Bursts is editing this audio. And it's nice to be able to be like, "Oh, he's going to edit the audio. And I don't have to think about it," you know, and, and so I understand why people want to do that. But, when you do it at the level of society, and you have everything turned into these black boxes, and you just sort of say, "Well, the black box never fails." And then when it fails, you're like, "Well, I guess there's nothing that could possibly have been done to solve this," you know? And then what you all do is you rip open these black boxes. Mixael 18:35 That is the goal. That is definitely the goal. Yeah. And I think what you point out is really a critical thing. When you talk about this is why people trust police and trust government and trust, you know, infrastructure and roads and bridges, and like, whatever, you know, whatever you're looking at, in terms of systems, you know, trusting your internet service provider, trusting your phone company, trusting the water systems, like any number of things. And ideally, it would be really nice if all of these things worked, right? Margaret 19:10 Yeah. Mixael 19:11 You know, in, in a sort of a Hallmark card fairy tale world, we'd really like to think like, "Well, the water that comes out of the tap, won't catch fire or be full of lead. And the roads that are designed are designed to be safe. And I'm not being unduly spied on or abused or exploited." And unfortunately, we don't get those systems working that well most of the time. Margaret 19:45 Yeah. Mixael 19:46 Or enough of the time. And so, I harken back sometimes his memory I have of a friend of mine who went to business school and he's a really nice guy and has plenty of good qualities. But, in a moment of being rather misguided, he went to business school. And so he still has a little bit of that business mindedness sort of stuck in his consciousness. And he said to me, "How would you qualify success of Four Thieves?" And I kind of thought about it for a minute and I said, "Well, if we didn't have to exist anymore." Margaret 20:20 Yeah. Mixael 20:21 And he kind of looked at me quizzically, and I was like, "We're filling a gap that really shouldn't be needful. Either the infrastructure should function well enough that it takes care of everybody, or the idea of DIY medicine should be sufficiently normalized that like, we're not important anymore. And everybody's just doing it. Because that's a natural thing to think of." Margaret 20:44 Yeah, I I like this idea of the ability to audit things mattering ,right? Like, I think of, because I think about how I want to offload certain responsibility. It's just part of my life, as I, you know, as I try to dive deeper into certain specializations, it's nice to free up mental space to not have to think about every system that I rely on. And, one of the things that I think scares people away from anarchism, even if they understand that anarchism is an organized thing, is that there's this assumption that everyone has to have a decision about everything, make a decision about everything. So you have like everyone in the city gets to decide how the water is filtered, or whatever. And, I'm much more into there being a working group of the people who filter water, who figured out the best way to do it and and present it. But, the difference that matters to me is that that would remain auditable, that would remain...I like that phraseing and that would be something that I could-- Mixael 21:41 Exactly. Margaret 21:42 I don't want to think about how the water is filtered until I suddenly do, and then I want to be able to know, you know, I want to know, and have input if it's necessary. Mixael 21:51 Yes. Exactly. And that's beautifully put, right? That's beautifully put, and that, and that sort of two tiered, I don't even mean to say it's a two tiered system, that sort of a dual structured system, where it operates independently, but is accessible is really ideal, you know, and people, often when people hear about Four Thieves, right, the first thing that they say is like, "How do you know it's safe?" And I always just have this quizzical moment where I say, "How do you know what you get from the drugstore is safe? You're not allowed to go behind the counter, and even see, if they got the right pills out of the right bin. You're not allowed to go right back there into the refrigerator and see if they stored it properly. You're not allowed to check the truck that it came in on and see if it was shipped properly. Furthermore, you're not even allowed to know what factory it came from. And you're certainly not allowed to go into that factory and see if it was manufactured properly. And yet, somehow that feels safe to you? But if you had your own eyes on everything from start to finish, that seems like a terrible risk. Why? Why do you feel that way?" And people don't tend to have a really good answer most of the time, but it's the same sort of thing. I mean, I think that...I think that there's something automatic about it, again, about wanting to trust structure. But, in the same way, you know, I think that the same thing happens when people who are like, I don't know, cooking their own psychedelics, I think a lot of people would be like, "Oh my God, how is that safe?" And you say, "You bought something from a stranger? How do you know what's even in that? That doesn't seem safe at all." Like where is your saftey versus... Margaret 23:41 Yeah, I mean, the answer is that none of them are safe. Mixael 23:46 Right, well, but in one case, you at least have complete surveillance over the entire process. And in the other. You have zero. Margaret 23:55 Yeah. Mixael 23:56 So, that seems like a better trade off in my mind. Margaret 24:01 Yeah. I mean, part of it is that it's like, like I keep kind of harkening back to is that I don't want to be an expert on everything, right? Like, you know, I really like what you all do, and there's a version of the world where I would learn wet chemistry, but it is not particularly likely, right? Like I am, personally not incredibly likely to start manufacturing these things, and but in part because I don't personally physically require any of the things that you all make, to my knowledge, that exists so far, right? And so I'm kind of like, it's sort of easy to, to not think about, but it's... Mixael 24:37 In the event that you have one that you needed. Margaret 24:41 I also like am part of a community where I do know people who are smart enough to do these things and, and one of the reasons I like Four Thieves, one of the reasons I talk about you all a lot, is that one of the questions I get asked a lot by people was like, "Well, how do, you know in an anarchist society or after the apocalypse which people equate a little bit more than they should and I do sometimes too, but how would you create such and such drug? And the answer is always like, well, people do it. And there's still going to be people. So, people will do it. Mixael 25:13 Right. Yeah. Margaret 25:13 You know? And one of the things that I try and remind myself as a person is that I'm like, I generally believe that if people are capable of doing something, I am a people, and therefore I am capable of doing it. Not like, today, I could go and do open heart surgery. But... Mixael 25:32 This is exactly my argument too. Yeah. Margaret 25:34 But I like, I trust my friends that did learn how to do that. Mixael 25:39 Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's absolutely astute. Margaret 25:43 Well, you know, we're, we've been talking for a while already, but I wanted to kind of give this groundwork. But, I'm really excited about y'all have an announcement today, you have many announcements of a bunch of new products that you all are releasing. And when I say today, I mean, yeah, July 22, 2022. I have no idea when you're listening to this. But, let's, let's hear some of these things that you have to announce. Mixael 26:09 Yeah, so we have a bunch of new projects, because we've been working through the pandemic. We decided to stop going to virtual conferences and just focus on projects. So, now that it's been almost two years, since we've made any announcements, we have a lot of new projects to drop. And as we were talking about before we went on the air, the sort of element du jour here is abortion drugs. And, this is such a...such a head shaker of an issue, to my mind, because this is a social problem that has a complete and perfect technical solution that there are all of these barriers to implementing that are entirely unnecessarily present. It's just so so so so bizarre. Because, when I think of abortion, I think, "Well, there are some drugs, you take the drugs, and your body is no longer pregnant. Why do we even have to discuss this anymore?" There are a few other pieces where things have-- Margaret 27:27 It seems like a solved problem is what you're saying? Mixael 27:27 Right, it seems like a solved problem. And, and it's just maddening to me that the the technical part of it was solved decades upon decades ago. And still, it's not accessible, which is just the most bizarre thing ever. So, in looking at the decision that just came out of the so called Supreme Court, you see that the the adenda include this sort of roadmap for bringing this down to emergency contraception, eventually bring this down to contraception itself and, you know, re-criminalizing gay sex and like a million other things that just are kind of just incomprehensible that anybody would want to make that happen. Like, even from the most conservative standpoint, you think that the pragmatism of realizing that it's bad for business when you're horrifically bigoted like maybe he would count for something, but clearly, I am in error when I assume that because it just happened. Margaret 28:50 Yeah, no. Hate is big business. Mixael 28:53 Yeah, yeah. It really is. And, I think I need to learn more about why it is because it's, it's so...I don't know, I can't get it to gel in my head. It's It's really weird. Margaret 29:10 It's a different reality. Mixael 29:13 It is. It is. And, I think that yeah, I think that that's really it, right? Where if you if you want to really crank up your compassion and try to understand why these people might feel that they're doing the right thing, despite this just horrific acts that they're doing that somewhere in there, like they think that something is better by doing this and it's, I really need to unpack it. And maybe it's something more basic in human behavioral biology that I just don't have a good handle on. But, like you said, it's it is big business and it is definitely a thing So, that to say, regarding abortion, there are two major releases that we have around that that are pretty exciting. And the first one, a we call them, Plan B Plus. And, when you think about getting emergency contraception, as is you know typically termed Plan B, which interestingly enough, all Plan B, and even the off brands like My Way, and the others have in the last week, tripled in price. Margaret 30:39 Holy shit, Uh huh Mixael 30:40 It's I mean, not that that's still super expensive, but it's amazing that you used to be able to get My Way for $6. And now it's $16. Like, it's crazy. But you know, again, right? Money drives a lot of things bizarrely, and, you know, supply and demand and all that. But looking at that, you know, Plan B emergency contraception is very effective. But, when you think about the potential negative consequences that might happen from unprotected contact, you might also be thinking about contracting HIV. And we also have a good solution for that. There's post exposure prophylaxis. There's this good regimen for taking some anti-retrovirals. And in the event that you were exposed to HIV during the act, you can be pretty confident that you're going to be protected. And we were able to go through the literature and find what a good regimen for post exposure prophylaxis is. Now it's interesting. So if you look at what happens in a hospital, if somebody has a needle stick accident, the typical regimen for post exposure prophylaxis is a fairly aggressive multi-drug set of anti-retrovirals that you take over a period of a month, and they're pretty rough on your body, because you're taking them in fairly high dose, and you're taking them for a long time. However, the literature indicates that the first dose or two is really doing the heavy lifting. So, if after an event of unprotected contact, or exposure of whatever type, you get one dose of this, it can do 85-95% of the work in terms of protecting you against HIV, which is really great. And so, we had the idea of saying, Well, why not take this with emergency contraception? It seems like kind of a, you know, why not just do them together? Margaret 32:54 Right. Mixael 32:54 And, we were very deflated to find out that anti-retrovirals actually interfere with emergency contraception biochemically. Margaret 33:05 Ah, okay. Mixael 33:05 And we thought, "God, what a drag?" This...I mean, what a terrible, difficult decision that you'd have to make. Would you prefer to protect yourself?-- Margaret 33:14 Yeah. Which one do you want to deal with? Mixael 33:15 Right? Would you rather deal with HIV or an unwanted pregnancy? That's a terrible decision to have to make. And one of our superstar researchers managed to find a research summit that was done on this very question just last year, and as it turns out, all you have to do is double the dose of the emergency contraception and that's enough that it's no longer being interfered with by the anti-retrovirals. So, there is a course of treatment that you can give yourself, that is both Plan B, emergency contraception, and post exposure prophylaxis with a multi-drug cocktail, and you will be able to be fairly certain that you will not have either an unwanted pregnancy or an HIV infection, which I'm pretty excited about. I think that's really great to be able to empower people with that, you know. You can just take some pills and that problem is, you know, 19 times out of 20 no longer gonna be a problem anymore. Margaret 34:21 And so, if someone is interested in making this, it's y'all's system, the MicroLab that people could use to make Plan B Plus? Mixael 34:34 That is possible, um, indeed, and the...and we are releasing version four of the Microlab as well. And there's a whole software suite with that. Not only is there the MicroLab itself, but there is a graphical user interface that's there to build programs to run on the MicroLab. We have open access our new supercomputer so that you can utilize it to figure out synthesis pathways for whatever drug you're trying to synthesize. And on top of that, also, there's a research assistant that will help you comb through the scientific literature. So you could do that. However, in this case, these are off the shelf drugs, and you can just take them. Margaret 35:22 Oh, I see what you're saying, okay. Mixael 35:24 So we'll be releasing a regimen. So, what you can do is merely you would, if you wanted to have this on hand for a rainy day, what you would do is you would buy two doses, so three milligrams, instead of a milligram and a half of the emergency contraception and then you would buy a, you know, a dose of a couple of different anti-retrovirals and you would just, you know, stash them away in the event that you will need them. And, and we'll be releasing that specifically as a, as a regimen, and there'll be documentation so that you can both read through what we have found and also, you will be able to read the original research and literature that this is based on. Again, like, we didn't come up with this. Margaret 36:19 Yeah, yeah. Mixael 36:20 This came from existing scientific research. So yes, all the all the primary source material is there, again, auditable, right? You should be making up your own mind. We, we've gone through and found the stuff and you can take a look at it and decide if it's something you want to do. Margaret 36:38 Okay. Mixael 36:40 So yes, we do have another technology in the abortion drugs realm that is extremely, extremely exciting. And so as you and most of your listeners, no doubt know, abortion medication is typically made up of Mifepristone and Misoprostol, and you take one dose of the Mife, and then you follow that up with three doses of Miso. And that is roughly 95% or more effective. And so that's kind of a slam dunk. However, in the world of underground abortion providers, it's very well known that if you have Miso only that you can take the three doses of Miso. And, it's roughly 85% effective. And of course, the earlier you take it, the more effective it is. And so most underground abortion providers do that. They work with Miso only. It's easier to get a hold of and it's it's easier to work with. Margaret 37:48 Okay. Mixael 37:48 However, there's still the problem of getting it from point A to point B. Typically, these days, it goes through the mail. And, one of the problems is it gets hung up, in the reason that it gets hung up is that it's a tablet. And there are these rigid object detectors that are in mail systems, and they get caught and they get pulled, especially through crossing international borders. It's very difficult. Same sort of thing. If you're in a some sort of oppressive environment, either like your home life or your small community if you have pills lying around, or if somebody spots you with pills, like a lot of question marks are going to come up. So when we released our video on how to make your own Miso tabs, the big thing is making the tablet. And the reason you have to make a tablet and this is really critical is that misoprostol is a very fragile molecule. If you just swallow it, your stomach acid will immediately destroy it and it's useless. You need to have it in a tablet so that you can put it in your cheek and let it dissolve and it will slowly soak in and be effective. That's also the reason why the alternate route of delivery is vaginal administration just of the tablets. You need it to dissolve in a place where there are a lot of capillaries. And apparently it's also fairly local. So there are some theories, that vaginal administration can be more effective. But, I think the literature is kind of split on that. But again, it can't be a capsul. Margaret 39:35 People have talked about this idea. And I don't know. So, don't listen to me as saying absolutely the truth. But, I have heard people talk about how vaginal use of this is more traceable than oral use of it, in terms of possible prosecution. Mixael 39:53 Right. So, there are documented cases of that. So, what can happen and what has what has happened in, I believe in number of Latin American countries, is that when things have not worked, and somebody's had to go in to a hospital, say, "I'm having a miscarriage, and it's going poorly, and I need medical attention," that after a pelvic exam, not the active ingredient, but some of the buffer and binder hasn't dissolved, and somebody says, "You have chunks of pills in you, we know what you did." And so, there are...sometimes say if you're in an extremely non permissive environment where you would go to jail for murder, if anybody knew that you tried to induce a miscarriage in your body, that taking it orally is safer in that regard. So again, again, the key thing here again, is thinking about it dissolving, that it has to be in a...you can't just put it in a capsule and swallow it, right, it has to be in a tablet form. And this is the difficult part. If you give somebody a bunch of raw active pharmaceutical ingredient, they can't just put it in gel caps they get from the health food store and make pills, you have to press it into a tablet. And while you can do that, and you know, we did release a video on how to do that, it's not that difficult, but it is a pain and putting through the mail is you know, they're fragile, and they break and what do you do with that? Is that okay? And people get nervous. So we were all sitting around trying to figure out what to do about this and one of our absolutely brilliant members just kinda looked up and said, "Why don't we just put it in blotter paper, like acid tabs?" And we all just had this moment of silence and said, "Oh, my God, that's brilliant." And again, scouring the literature, it turns out that this has been done. It's just nobody does it. There's a very effective way that you can put miso into paper with a binder so that it's less...so it's more stable, more shelf stable and less fragile. Misoprostol is shelf stable when stored properly. Margaret 42:31 Do you have to keep it in a freezer? Mixael 42:32 You don't have to keep it in the freezer. The thing apparently that it is most susceptible to is-- Margaret 42:38 I'm just thinking of Acid. Margaret 42:39 Oh, right. Haha. Yeah, so the thing that the thing that misoprostol apparently is most susceptible to is moisture. And the interestingly, the buffer that comes with, when you put it into the paper makes it less susceptible to moisture. If you're planning on storing it for a long period of time, yeah, you can put in like a Ziploc bag or a little Mylar bag or whatever, that's fine. And it'll keep for longer. But, in the suspension that we've found, you can just have a little piece of card. And so what we are hoping to do is to have a whole bunch of little business cards that have six little squares that you can cut out, and you take two of them, and put them in your cheeks and you let them sit there for about an hour. And then you you wait the requisite number of hours and you do your second dose and then you'd wait the requisite number of hours and take your third dose and you're done. And the thing that's magical about this is that it removes a lot of the infrastructural problems. You can send this through the mail. It's totally undetectable. You can stick it into a copy of "The Left Hand of Darkness" in the public libraries and just tell somebody that they can go pick it up, if they need it. You can take this and stash it in any number of geocaches. Margaret 44:11 I think that you should use "A Country of Ghosts." Mixael 44:13 There we go. Yeah. So you know, they're...right or or or "The Mists of Avalon" or any number of appropriate works of literature that you can stash these in entirely appropriate. Margaret 44:25 Yeah. Mixael 44:26 And what we're hoping to have by the time this airs is to have a lot of these already out there and circulating. Not just that it's an idea, but that it's been manufactured by a bunch of affiliate cells, a number of other anarchist health activism groups, and that hopefully the opinion as it's called of the Supreme Court becomes just their opinion. And if there's so much out there that people can just get it for free whenever they want, because we've made so much of it, then maybe they just don't matter that much anymore. Margaret 45:15 So, I'm laughing super hard, because it's fucking brilliant. And also, of course, because I really liked the idea of being able to say, "Yeah, well, that's just your opinion, man," to the Supreme Court's opinion. Mixael 45:27 Yeah, I like that. Margaret 45:28 But this, this does bring up a question. What's the legality of manufacturing and or, clearly, we would never advocate anyone break the law, because that's the, I mean, actually, literally, that's the kind of thing that people need to make their own decision. Oh, well, Mixael 45:46 Oh, well you and I might differ on that. Margaret 45:51 You live in a different country. Mixael 45:51 I would certainly advocate for people to break the law. But yeah, details. Yes. Right. Margaret 46:00 And also, I would say that I advocate for people to have knowledge with which they can make their own informed decisions about which laws they want to follow. But-- Mixael 46:08 That's a good way to phrase it. Margaret 46:09 To what degree is there a concern around like, like, if I live in a state where Miso is legal, is it legal for me to make it myself? Mixael 46:20 Oh probably not. Margaret 46:20 Like, in general, what kind of legality will people be running into? Mixael 46:26 All manner of weird things, and it does depend on the state that you're in. And the the legal team at Four Thieves basically put it to me like this. If they want to arrest you, they can find a way. And it was sort of it was kind of like it's a moot right. Are you distributing a dangerous drug? Are you distributing a dangerous drug with intent to defraud? Are you practicing medicine without a license? Are you...that there's so many weird laws that are so broadly written, that any number of things could be thrown at you, if you were making it, distributing it, sharing it, taking it, especially with all the new shifts in law. And again, it becomes, in, in my mind, with my understanding of the situation as it is now, the risk that you run is really measured in Is it going to be worth it for the law enforcement in question to try to chase you down? Or not? How possible and how plausible is that? Because if you think about the state of New York, you're in the northeast, some you're near New York, right? Margaret 47:57 Sure, yeah. Mixael 48:00 Okay, you might be in New York. Margaret 48:02 I'm in Appalachia. I am closer to New York than I am to like San Francisco. Mixael 48:09 Right, closer to New York than I am. So but, I happen to know that in the state of New York, if you were to say, "Hey, Mixael, you know, I have a headache?" And I say, "Oh, yeah, have you thought of taking an aspirin for that," that I am technically, committing a felony of practicing medicine without a license. That's how broadly the law is written. Now, nobody's ever gonna prosecute that of course. But, the law in many cases and in many places is written so broadly that anything will fall under its purview. And it becomes this weird question of is it worth the energy of a prosecutor? Is it worth the energy of the local police force? Is worth the energy of an investigator? And so in sort of a threat modeling sort of idea, the way the InfoSec people talk about it, you just want to make yourself just a little bit more of a pain in the ass to hunt down than anybody's willing to do. And you're probably safe. Now, this isn't like good advice from me, like go talk to a real security person, if you're thinking about doing this, and like, keep yourselves and keep each other safe. Please, please, please, please, if you're if you're one of us, we need you out here and safe. So that we can all keep doing stuff and helping each other. So, you take as...take more precautions than you think you need. Please. Try to be...try to err on the side of safety. However, I would say do not allow the the fear to paralyze you into inaction. There are ways that you can keep yourself relatively safe, and stay out of so called trouble and still do the things that you believe are right. And you will be able to continue to help other people and keep each other healthy and keep each other safe. Margaret 50:25 Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I sometimes get sad because I'm like, "Well, I picked being very public as my role. So I guess I'm not doing anything really cool." But, I don't know. So. So what else you got? It's your big day of announcements. You've already offered the world ways to access reproductive, their own reproductive health. What about oh, I don't know this thing that's going around that's disabling a lot of people and causing a lot of problems and killing people called Covid. You got anything for that? Mixael 51:05 Yeah. Well, we do, we do. And I'll give at least a little teaser. Margaret 51:10 Yay! Mixael 51:10 Now, this is an interesting thing. Because in Four Theives we we have a general policy of marching away from the sound of the guns. If there are a lot of people working on something, we tend to think, "Okay, well, then we're not needed there, we need to focus on the things that aren't being focused on." We did I construct a Covid survival guide. In the very early days. I think we released it in February of 2020. When people kind of weren't appreciating how scary it was going to be. And, we put together the information that we had access to at the time, and it's aged, okay. There are a number of things that are certainly outdated. And at least one thing that's not terribly correct. Or, it's miscontextualized. We have a thing where we're like, "You know, masks don't keep you safe very much," which is true. But masks are really important because they keep everybody else safe. So you know, don't be a jerk, wear a mask, keep everybody else safe. It wasn't clear at the time that it was going to be so pervasive that we were going to need to do that all the time. So, we did that when it seemed nobody else was. And then subsequently, when basically every scientific organization in the world suddenly turned their microscopes on this, we thought, well, okay, cool, we're not needed anymore, we're going to focus on other things. But, as the years have passed, there is one aspect of Covid that is getting all largely ignored by the mainstream medical infrastructure, which is Long Covid. I have spoken with a number of medical professionals who have a very dismissive attitude. And they say that they feel they think, Long Covid is largely psychosomatic. And I'm kind of disgusted. Margaret 53:18 It's the same shit of every fucking viral. It's just the same thing as every viral long term thing, that people just like, like, like people have....there's other viruses that people get that cause long term symptoms that get called psychosomatic is what I'm saying. Mixael 53:36 Sure and the thing that it, it sounds very...harkens back to a lot of the stuff that you typically hear mainstream doctors say about things like chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, things that definitely affect people with two X chromosomes. When you're looking at these things, it's like, "Oh, it's on your head, you need to exercise more, you should probably lose weight. You," you know, whatever. Just this very, very dismissive attitude that when I hear it, and when I sort of poke at these people and ask them to sort of unpack their reasoning for me, that when you get down to it, they're basically like, "Look, we don't know how to treat it. So essentially, in my reality, it doesn't exist." And I'm like, that's exactly the opposite of the attitude we should be having towards something that's crippling people. This is terrible. This is terrible. Margaret 54:37 Yeah. Mixael 54:37 And so as happens sometimes there are occasionally people that reach out to Four Thieves and have some information that's not in the public sphere or is not highlighted enough. And a guy that I worked with years and years ago said, "Hey, I know what you're doing and there's this thing that I have for Long Covid. And I can't get any traction on it. Maybe you can push it in through one of your backdoors." And I said, "I don't believe you. There's no way you have a cure for Long Covid. Long. Covid is so complicated. It's like this world. It's this giant umbrella of different symptoms and different mechanisms of action." And he was like, "Yeah, yeah, I know. It's only for one." And so I shut up. And I said, "Okay, I'm listening. What are we talking about?" He said, "Well, a lot of Long Covid cases seem to be autoimmune in nature." And I was like, "Yeah, I've read that. And he said, the very few doctors who are taking this seriously are treating it with immunosuppressants." And I said, "Okay, cool. What now?" And he said, "Well, the problem is, is immunosuppressants that are approved in the United States, are very, very hard in the system, and will often cause people's kidneys to fail before they do what they're supposed to do." And I said, "Yeah, so you got something better?" And he said, "Actually, yes, it's an old drug. It's FDA approved. It was originally designed for leprosy. And it's called Clofazimine." And I said, "This is ridiculous. You're talking about an antibiotic. That's not going to do anything," And he said, "Slow down." He said, "This modulates the calcium channels in your T cells, and it will bring your immune system down to chill out." And I said, "I don't believe you. This is ridiculous. This is this is this seems totally...There's no way you just have this in your backpack. How is this real?" And I said, "Wend...Do you have documentation?" And he said, "Yeah, of course. I have a truckload of documentation." "So we'll send it to me." He said "Well, I will." And he did and he was right. The weird thing that's, that's so difficult is that Clofazimine is almost impossible to find, because leprosy is seen as a poor people disease, a non-white people disease. Margaret 57:19 Yeah. Mixael 57:20 And, so despite the fact that Clofazamine was approved by the FDA, and is on the books, it's not manufactured by anybody in the United States. And it's not imported to the United States by anybody. So you really, really, really have to go looking for it. And, so the last thing where I'm still kind of totally incredulous with this guy, whereas I said, "So what? Somebody just takes this for the rest of their lives, and maybe they're okay? Like, and how long do they need to take it before they even know that it's working?" And he said, "They can take one or two doses, and it'll either work or it won't." And I said, "You've got to be joking." And he said, "No, I'm serious." I said, "Well, and then when they take it forever?" And he said, "No, then you can take it for about a month, and your immune system will settle out to a regular setpoint. And then you can stop taking it, and you can just go back to your regular life." And I was just absolutely floored. And so we continue to try and look for sources Clofazamine. They allegedly are available in places like Indian Bangladesh. Again, we're recording this in advance of when it's going to be released. So hopefully, we'll have a truckload full of it. And we'll be throwing it to people from the stage. But, again, it's been very hard to turn up. And again, I think just the fact that it's hard to get these sorts of things is so emblematic of all of the problems that you and I keep talking about in terms of the way that health running both worldwide, and especially in the US. So hopefully, we'll have some of this and hopefully, we'll be able to get it to the people who need it and help people who need it, get it themselves. And Long Covid can be something that isn't affecting so so so many people, and we'll be able to make at least some of them a little better. Margaret 59:12 What...like what kind of...you're saying that it only works on certain, certain Long Covid symptoms or sufferers, like, is there a sort of like a rough idea of like, what percent you're talking about? Because also, there's I know that you expressed incredulity in the story, but it's like, it's so hard not to hear this and think this is horse paste again, you know, this is ivermectin. Mixael 59:35 Right. So, so, so Long Covid again, is this it's this big umbrella term for something happened with Covid and you're experiencing things after you are quote unquote, "better." One of the ways that this manifests is people just get severe forms of Covid and get organ damage. And that's Long Covid Right. You have permanent effects from it, like no drug gonna to fix that, okay. You have organ damage, you have organ damage. That's very hard to reverse. There are manifestations where people kind of have chronic infection where especially in people who are immunocompromised, their viral load never really goes away. And, they just continue to suffer. Also, this is not going to help that at all. But what seems to happen in a, you know, maybe not the majority or even the plurality of cases, but a large chunk of cases is what happens is, people get a fairly severe Covid infection, and their immune system kicks into hyperdrive as it is designed to, but Covid can be sufficiently aggressive and hang around long enough that the immune system never modulates back down. And so what will happen is that people who have recovered from their Covid infection become hypersensitive to things again. They're totally fatigued all the time, because their immune system is taking up all of their resources. They don't tolerate things well. They get weird, like allergic reactions to things. All sorts of stuff that, again, is in this sort of autoimmune disease manifestation. And the thing that's really magical is that you take one or two doses of this, and it'll either work or it won't. If you if you start to feel better, you know, that you're in this particular category of this is what you needed. And then you can just take a course of treatment, and hopefully, you'd be better. And you so you don't have to, like tax your body for a long time trying to say, well, like maybe it'll work maybe won't, you'll know very quickly, which is such a blessing. And so my hope at the HOPE conference in New York, is that if I find people who say they have Long Covid, that I'll be able to give them one or two doses and say, "Take one today, take one tomorrow, and if on Sunday, you feel much better, I can give you a month's worth. And then you can just take it home with you and be better." Margaret 1:02:20 Right. Mixael 1:02:21 So that's my dream. And again, also that you proliferate it so that people know how they can access it on their own without having to need us as an intermediary. And have ways that people can, as you say, potentially manufacture it, if it's not accessible at all. Access is really the thing. There's so many, so many things that are on the shelf we can fix, but you can't get them legally. So, while you might not encourage people to break the law, I say, have at it. Have at it! If it's the difference between breaking the law and keeping your health, would you rather be the most law abiding citizen in the graveyard? Or would you like to maybe work circum-legally, or extra-legally and live to fight another day? I think it's a pretty easy decision Margaret 1:03:16 That that I encourage everyone can make on their own. Yeah, no, totally. All right. And so I think you have one more announcement for today. And maybe we'll go over this one quickly. We're kind of running out of time. So, but, you have a defibrillator? Mixael 1:03:33 Oh, so I'll give another teaser is that we have...yeah, the defibrillator. So we have an open source defibrillator that you can build for about $600 instead of the usual $6,000. And so we'll be giving details on all of these things at the talk at HOPE [conference]. And we'll be doing workshops at DEF CON a few weeks later. And I encourage you all to come out. And if you can't, I know that you can get a virtual ticket to HOPE so that you can not just stream all the talks, but also interact and ask questions in real time. And I believe that DEF CON will also be hybridized. So, if you go to the Biohacking Village Channel [On Youtube], you should be able to watch what we're doing. And yeah, I hope to see you all there. Or sooner or later somewhere. Margaret 1:04:26 All right. There any last words, things that we forgot, things that need to get pointed out? Mixael 1:04:37 Well, if you like what Four Thieves is doing and you want to support the mission, please go out and find somebody who needs your help and help them whether or not you think they deserve it. Margaret 1:04:49 Yeah, fuck yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Again. Mixael 1:04:55 Keep each other healthy, each other safe. Margaret 1:04:58 Thanks so much for coming on again. Mixael 1:04:59 Thank you so much. It's always great chatting with you. And I hope we can do it again. Margaret 1:05:02 I look forward to it. Mixael 1:05:03 Yeah, me too. Margaret 1:05:11 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, you should tell people about it. You should tell people about it on the internet, and in person, and sky writing. I don't know if sky writing is ethical. If you all come up with a green version of sky writing, you should do it hot air balloons? I feel like hot air balloons. If you were to set up hot air balloons, and do banners from the hot air balloons, maybe that don't just say "Live Like The World is Dying" because that would be kind of a scary thing if you were just driving around and there was a hot air balloon up above you that said, "Live Like The World is Dying." Or maybe that would be good. I'm not the boss of you. You do whatever you want, including not tell people about this, whatever. You can also support us. You can support us by supporting our publisher. We are published by Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness, which is a publishing collective that's how you know, they publish things like podcasts. We. I'm part of it. We put out zines. And we put out podcasts, and we're going to be putting out books soon. We've been around for almost 20 years in various different incarnations, but this new version of it is new and exciting. And if you support us on Patreon, patreon.com/strangersInatangledwilderness, you can sign up there and you can get a zine sent to you every month. Not for free. It's like, you have to pay for it. But it's like once you sign up for the thing, then we send it to you and we'll send it to you anywhere in the world. And also all of our content is made available as best we can free on the internet as well. But, it's really cool to be supported and really grateful. I know that I like to say this every time but I'm really grateful for all the support that people have shown. Both the people who came over with me. It used to be a personal Patreon for me, and have come over to supporting the collective, and then also all of the new supporters. It it's like really good for morale. We're like trying to do this fairly ambitious project with all this stuff that we're trying to get done. And we haven't been able to get all of it done yet, right? And people being like, "No, we believe in you!" by supporting us has been really big, really great. So thanks. Thank you. And in particular, I would like to thank Hoss the Dog, who is a dog, not a person. I already made this joke. And now I'm stuck making the joke again. I'm sorry. If you missed the joke, Hoss the Dog is a dog but anyway, Hoss the Dog, Chris, Sam, Miciahah, Kirk, Natalie, Eleanor, Jennifer, Staro, Kat J, Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Oxalis, Paige, and SJ. Yeah. Thank you. And to everyone else, go out and don't commit crime unless you want to commit crime. Really, I guess that was the whole point of the whole thing you just listened to. Good luck! Weird shits happening? I don't know. We'll get through it. Yeah, it'll be good. Totally. See you all soon. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co
During the watching of the final episode of the first season of Channel Zero, me and James had an epiphany. We realized that everything we previously thought to be true... was a false reality. Learn more in our CONCLUSION! Thanks to James Hudson from the podcast: "Nite Shift Video" for joining in on this episode as he does so well! Hundreds of bonus episodes & more on patreon.com/horrorsoup - Thanks to Jessica for picking this series on the donating app! Instagram @horrorsoup Twitter: @horrorsoupsucks Letterboxd: @horrorsoupcaleb TikTok: @horrorsoup YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa1yE4TMVtbkRgxMtx5rTZg Music Credits: Ross Lee, The Mutant Members Only Club, Sonissam, & Astroblk.
Hey bros- Channel Zero conclusion will release in a few days! For now, Osmosis Jones! (temporary uplaod) Thanks to James Hudson from the podcast: "Nite Shift Video" for joining in on this episode as he does so well! Hundreds of bonus episodes & more on patreon.com/horrorsoup Instagram @horrorsoup Twitter: @horrorsoupsucks Letterboxd: @horrorsoupcaleb TikTok: @horrorsoup YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa1yE4TMVtbkRgxMtx5rTZg Music Credits: Ross Lee, The Mutant Members Only Club, Sonissam, & Astroblk.
Episode Notes Episode Summary: Mo, a criminal defense/movement lawyer with the National Lawyers Guild, talks about how Grand Juries are used by the State to destabilize communities, and what your options are for resisting them if you are issued a subpoena. Margaret and them talk about the importance of not cooperating with Grand Juries and how you can be an eternal badass...i mean protect yourself and your community by resisting them. They also talk about the most important legal strategy: Hope. Guest Info: Mo, Moira Meltzer-Cohen (they/them), is a Criminal Defense Lawyer who works at the intersection of Criminal Defense and struggles for social and economic justice. They work for the National Lawyers Guild (NLG) Federal Defense Hotline. You can find them on Twitter @ProbYrLawyer. Show Links: National Lawyers Guild Federal Defense Hotline: (212) 679-2811 IF YOU RECEIVE A SUBPOENA FOR A GRAND JURY CALL THEM. (If you call you might get Mo!) NLG NYC_:_ On Instagram @NLG_NYC Civil Liberties Defense Center: CLDC.org for legal primers, brochuers and information. Grand Jury Resistance Project: GrandJuryResistance.org SparrowMedia.net: Chelsea Manning Grand Jury Resitance info. Host: The host Margaret Killjoy can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher: This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Mo on Grand Juries Margaret 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret killjoy. And this week I will be talking to my friend Mo, who is a lawyer. And not just any lawyer, but the lawyer I know who got one of my friends out of jail when he was in jail for Grand Jury resistance. "What is a Grand Jury?" you might ask, and "Why might we resist it?" Well, that's the topic of this week's episode. So if you stay tuned, you will hear all about Grand Juries and why they suck, and what we can do about them, and what you can do about them. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's the jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:48 Okay, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then kind of what you do for work. Mo 01:53 Hi, Margaret, I'm Mo. My name is Moira Meltzer-Cohen. My pronouns are they/them. I'm an attorney, and I work at the intersection of criminal defense and struggles for social and economic justice. So, I've probably represented a lot of your listeners. Margaret 02:13 Hurray. Yeah, for context. I've literally had nightmares, where I get rounded up by cops, and I'm just like, "I need to call Mo!" And and then Mo comes and saves me. Mo 02:26 I'll do my best. Margaret 02:27 Yeah, I appreciate it. The only other phone number I've memorized besides like my immediate family. So speaking of friends of ours that Moira has gotten out of jail, I want to talk about something that happened a number of years ago to our mutual friend, Jerry Koch, which was that one time Jerry Koch was may may or may not have once been in a bar. And people in that bar may or may not have been talking about a crime that happened. I think, before Jerry even moved to New York City, but I'm not entirely certain. And that crime was that someone may or may not Well, clearly, someone did it. No one knows who did it. Someone bicycled past recruitment center and threw a box full of black powder at it, and it destroyed the door in the middle of the night, and no one was hurt. And because it was a federal crime, it became this huge deal. And so Jerry was subpoenaed to speak before a Grand Jury, and Jerry refused to do so. And as a result, he spent nine months in jail without being accused of any crime, and basically, like all of his rights were taken away. Like all of his, you know, First, Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights were not enough to say, well, basically, they can try and make you talk even though it's not illegal to not talk to them, and they can still throw you in jail. And I wanted to have Mo on one because Mo was the one who got Jerry out of jail. But also because I think that it's useful for people to know about the Grand Jury process, kind of what it is, what it can do to social movements, and how we can prevent it from doing those things to our social movements as we fight for a better world. So do you want to tell me like, What is a Grand Jury? Mo 04:18 Right? So the Grand Jury is anomalous in the American legal system, and it's, as you will see, it's so anomalous, and it so disregards so many of the core assumptions that most people have about the Constitution and the American legal system that I have encountered many people, including many attorneys, who have a really hard time believing that Grand Juries exist and operate in the way that they do actually operate. So a federal Grand Jury is an investigation where 18 to 24 people are called together in the same way that, you know, you get called for, like jury duty. People get called for Grand Jury Duty. And they hang out and listen to prosecutors to federal prosecutors present evidence about various criminal offenses and determine whether or not a crime has actually occurred. And in doing these investigations, federal prosecutors can issue subpoenas, which say, to whoever they're issued to, you have to show up to this Grand Jury and answer my questions in front of these 18 to 24 people. And there's really...and you don't get an attorney in there with you. And there's no judge in there. There's just the prosecutor and these people who have been called to Grand Jury Duty. And they can tell you to come and give testimony and answer their questions. And they can also tell you to come and bring various kinds of documents. And this is compulsory, whereas usually, you would have the right to decline to participate in a police investigation, which is what I talked about last time I was on your show, which is that you really never have an obligation to talk to police. Unfortunately, this is sort of the opposite, where if you are issued a Grand Jury subpoena, and you declined to participate, you can be ordered by a judge to participate, sort of, in spite of all of the rights you think you have, like the First Amendment, right to Association and Speech and Belief, and your Fifth Amendment rights to remain silent. And your Sixth Amendment right to have a lawyer with you, if you're being questioned, all of those rights kind of fly out the window. And if you refuse to participate, a judge might order you to participate anyway. And if you continue to decline to participate, the judge will find you in Contempt of their Order To Participate, and they can throw you in prison. And so you can spend a pretty significant amount of time in federal prison, not because you have been accused of a crime, not because you have been convicted of a crime, but because you have declined to help the state make out their case against yourself or someone else. Margaret 07:29 One of the things that really strikes me about Grand Juries is like when you first try to describe the process of someone, it sounds like a good thing, right? It's like set up to be this thing where you're like, oh, you can't just accuse people have crimes. And you actually have to have a meeting ahead of time to make sure there's enough evidence before you can accuse someone of a crime. And it just I feel like the state is really good at taking things that like ostensibly might possibly be designed to protect us from government overreach and turn them into over government overreach. Mo 08:01 That's exactly right. So a Grand Jury is a it's a process that was invented in the 12th century. And the reason that it was invented is it was a group of sort of citizens, men, who would come together to privately investigate whether an offence had even been committed, because sometimes the Crown would just throw people in, in jail. And so this was... the Grand Jury was a step that was intended to make sure that there was some constraint on the unfettered power of the Crown. And unfortunately, the way that the Grand Jury has been adopted and used in the United States is not...it is an arm of state power, as opposed to a bulwark against it. Although, federal prosecutors get really butthurt if you say things like that, and they...they're constantly saying, we're a bulwark against unfettered power, but they're.... Margaret 09:07 And that's why we threw your friend in jail for nine months for not talking to us. Mo 09:11 I can never tell if federal prosecutors actually believe the things that they're saying. They're very defensive about... they're very defensive about the Grand Jury process. And they seem genuinely to believe that it's protective, despite the fact that there, I think, is only one other nation in the world that still uses Grand Juries, because they have come to be understood as really damaging. They're not transparent. They're secret proceedings. They're frequently compared to Star Chamber Proceedings. But one of the things that is a big difference between a federal Grand Jury and the Star Chamber is that the Star Chamber Proceedings were public. Margaret 09:54 What's a Star Chamber Proceeding? 09:57 The Star Chamber was this like, sort of secret authoritarian court. Margaret 10:03 Cool. Mo 10:04 So, yeah, so the thing about Grand Jury proceedings is the claim that's made is that they happen in secret so that they don't sort of destroy the reputations of people who the innocent accused, right? But there's actually ways of initiating a criminal prosecution that don't involve secrecy, right? You....people in countries all over the world managed to prosecute criminal offenses without using Grand Juries. And it involves sort of public cross examination and having sort of the trappings of due process that we would assume, obtain in the American legal system, and they typically do, but federal Grand Juries, you know, as I said, there, it's totally unnecessary. But, they're very useful. They're very useful for a number of reasons, because their critical attributes give tremendous power to prosecutors. Sorry, let me rephrase that they're very useful to prosecutors for a number of reasons. They're not particularly useful to anyone else? They're quite dangerous for exactly these reasons. Margaret 11:18 Because they can like...they can use them to just fish information out of scenes, right? Because you can show up and say... Mo 11:24 There's a bunch of things about them. One is that what a prosecutor can ask is almost unlimited. There's there's really... the rules of evidence that we would think about, like, you know, hearsay, being inadmissible various kinds of unlawfully collected evidence being admissible, relevance, right? If you're having a criminal trial or a civil trial, you can't just get any kind of...you can't start asking questions about unrelated things, right? Well, in a federal Grand Jury, you can, and there's...Furthermore, there's nobody there. There's no judge there, there's no defense attorney present. The only person who's present is the prosecutor. So the prosecutor gets to determine what evidence gets seen, and what evidence doesn't get seen, right? They're presenting their case to this Grand Jury, but they're not giving a complete picture, which is why we have Grand Juries where, you know, over 99%, of people accused of a federal offense get indicted by a Grand Jury. But are those people ever cops? I mean, almost never, right? And that's because the prosecutor controls how evidence is presented and what evidence is not presented, and how evidence gets placed before those grand jurors. And so they really control the narrative. And they basically determine what gets prosecuted and what doesn't. They can also use the federal Grand Jury, as you said, to go fishing, because they can basically issue as we saw with Jerry, they can issue a subpoena to just about anyone and ask them just about anything. So, you know, we have no idea whether they actually thought Jerry had any relevant information about that event, which they refer to as The Bicycle Bombing. Right? Who knows whether they actually thought that Jerry had any information about it, despite the fact that he told them publicly many times that he did not. And they don't seem to have had any real reason to think he did. But what they definitely thought he had information about was anarchist organizing in New York City. And that's clearly what they were interested in asking him about. And so maybe they weren't necessarily going to get information about the Bicycle Bombing from subpoenaing him to come and give testimony. And maybe they weren't gonna even get information about any kind of Federal offense from his testimony, but they sure we're gonna get some social mapping. They sure we're gonna get some information about, you know, potentially about like, internecine quarrels in the anarchist community. So, you know, a lot of, a lot of this is a fishing expedition. And I think that sort of brings us to the next thing that you and I were discussing, which is, Grand Juries are these really complicated, really anomalous legal proceedings. They're sort of quasi criminal. They involve a lot of different really technical elements. But at bottom, they're sort of anathema to anarchists. And there's a few reasons for that. And I think, you know, this is sort of the thing that I guess we wanted to talk about, which is that, Margaret 14:55 Yeah, why don't anarchists talk to Grand Juries? Mo 14:58 Well, this is yeah, I mean, this is the thing, right, is that there's sort of three things going on. One thing is anarchists pretty much don't talk to Grand Juries, on principle, because fuck the state. But there's also materially, it's very dangerous to give testimony to a Grand Jury, because you're essentially, even if you're not giving them information about any unlawful activity, any information that you give to the state, can and very much will be used against you and your community. And anytime you're talking to a federal Grand Jury, or a federal investigator, law enforcement of any kind, anything that you say, can be used to get more information can be used to cause trouble in your community, and can be used to prosecute, prosecute you or the people in your community. And then the third even more technical reason is that strategically, legally, there are a whole slew of reasons and legal arguments that you can bring to bear against cooperating with a federal Grand Jury. And, in fact, you know, I would say, as a legal matter, you know, I can't...whether or not to cooperate with a federal Grand Jury is not a decision that an attorney can make for another person. Margaret 16:25 Right. Mo 16:26 But there are a number of legal advantages to litigating questions around the enforceability of a Grand Jury subpoena. Margaret 16:39 Well does this tie into, like, how how you got Jerry out? Mo 16:44 Yes. Well, there's sort of there's phases, right, because the first thing that I would say, the first thing that would happen in Grand Jury litigation, is developing arguments or or seeing if there are arguments against the enforceability of the Grand Jury subpoena. And these range from things like: "Is the subpoena properly issued and enforceable?"to "Can you enforce this Grand Jury subpoena against this particular individual?" Does this Grand Jury subpoena impermissibly intrude into First Amendment protections? Does it impermissibly intrude into Fifth Amendment protections? Can you demonstrate that this particular subpoena was issued on the basis of illegally collected evidence? There's things like that, that certainly you would want to litigate before just rolling over and cooperating with a Grand Jury. Again, from the legal point of view, quite apart from the issues of principle, you know, if you don't, if there's a way to avoid incriminating yourself, you, you know, I would advise you to do it. So, there's a whole kind of litigation to...that happens sort of up front, to try to do what's called "quash the subpoena", right, to nullify the subpoena. That almost universally fails. We are not successful with that litigation that happens early on in the process. And then what what typically happens? Well, sometimes what happens is that the prosecutor gives up, but that's, that's not typical. Although it happens occasionally. Margaret 18:39 We could hope we could pin all of our hopes on that. Mo 18:43 Yes. I wouldn't expect it. Margaret 18:47 No, we should pin all of our hopes on it. That's what'll happen. You heard it here first, there's nothing to worry about. Mo 18:55 Please call my office. If you get a Grand Jury subpoena. Do not lay awake in bed hoping for the prosecutor to let it go. Margaret 19:03 Interesting. Okay. Okay. Mo 19:05 You know, we even have a hotline. Margaret 19:07 Yeah? Mo 19:08 Which I can tell you about later. But yes, we...you can call the office, you can call the hotline. You can call your local chapter of the National Lawyers Guild. Margaret 19:19 Okay. Mo 19:20 Hire a lawyer instead of hoping. Margaret 19:22 Okay. Mo 19:23 Okay. Margaret 19:24 And probably a movement lawyer rather than like one that's just looking out for... Mo 19:28 For sure. Yes. Hope is not a great legal strategy, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Margaret 19:36 It's almost like we should be prepared as individuals and communities for bad things that might happen. Mo 19:42 It's almost like that. Margaret 19:43 Yeah, but that would be crazy. Anyway. Okay. Mo 19:46 Typically, what happens is that you litigate the validity or the enforceability of the subpoena. And then the judge typically says, "The justice demands that we do unfettered investigations, and be allowed to ask whatever questions we want. And, if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't be worried, just go talk to the federal Grand Jury." And they will, the judge, will order the witness to give testimony. But of course, the judge can order you to do something all they want. That doesn't mean you actually have to do it. And so, if you continue to refuse to give testimony before the federal Grand Jury, the way the judge will enforce their order, is to say, "Well, if you won't give testimony, I'm going to hold you in Contempt of Court. And the sanction for being in Contempt of Court is that I will put you in federal prison until you agree to give testimony. And if you don't agree to give testimony, then you are going to stay in federal prison until the Grand Jury expires (Grand Jury is typically at last 18 months). So, I'll keep you in federal prison until the Grand Jury expires." And then the other way that you can sometimes get out without giving testimony is to just demonstrate that you will not be convinced by your confinement to give testimony, right, because the the only permissible reason to put somebody in prison for civil Contempt is to convince them to change their mind. Right? Margaret 21:40 Cause that's coercive instead of punitive. Is that the idea? Mo 21:42 That's right. That's right. So there's... Margaret 21:44 What a weird dumb distinction that the law wants to make. Mo 21:49 There's a distincation that...I would say it's a distinction without a difference, except it does have this very significant meaningful difference... Margaret 21:57 Right, legally. Mo 21:57 Which is as follows: Margaret 21:59 Okay, Mo 22:00 A judge cannot put you in prison to punish you in the absence of due process, in the context of Grand Jury litigation, Contempt of Court is Civil and not Criminal. And so you don't get due process in the way that you would have to, in order for the judge to punish you. And so the judge...the fiction here is that the judge is not punishing you by confining you, the judge is just putting you in an uncomfortable situation with the promise that it will stop if you agree to do the thing the judge wants you to do. So, it isn't punishment. It's coercion. Margaret 22:51 Hooray. Mo 22:52 So it's, it sounds very silly, except what follows there from is that if you can demonstrate to the judge, that it isn't coercive, and it's only punitive, then they have to release you, because it's unconstitutional to punish you. Margaret 23:13 Right. Mo 23:14 And so, being able to demonstrate that the confinement in federal prison has been transformed from a coercion into a punishment is the way that you can eventually after some, usually many months, you can get your client out of prison, which is what happened with Jerry. Margaret 23:43 Okay, I kind of love because it's like, "Look, if you're a badass, and you come from a badass movement, I'm sorry, you just can't put badass is in jail. It's just not allowed anymore", is like the kind of and like, I'm under the impression when you were talking earlier about one of the reasons why anarchists in particular, might want to refuse to speak to Grand Juries is does this build a stronger case for future anarchists basically, to be like, "Oh, it doesn't work. This won't work." Mo 24:13 Absolutely. I dont think it will prevent them from trying to exact a cost. Margaret 24:17 Right. Mo 24:19 They'll still put you in. Margaret 24:20 Right. But I was under the impression this was like part of the way of explaining to a judge like "My you know, my client cannot be coerced into testifying." Mo 24:33 Absolutely. Yes, very much. You know, there's...and it isn't just to be clear, it isn't only anarchists who do this. There's some really great case law that stems from different organized crime people and white collar crime, which is just another kind of organized crime, I guess, people refusing to cooperate. There's a really great case where a Jewish guy says that it's against, you know, It violates the tenets of his faith to to snitch, which I as a Jew, I I would say, "Yes that I would agree with this assessment." And of course the judge said, "No, you... I'm sorry you don't have a religious First Amendment right not to snatch." Morris Simpkin, I think was the was the guy. Rabbi Morris Simpkin. Margaret 25:26 That rules. Mo 25:27 Yeah, no, he's he's a hero. And then there's a guy who basically was released, because he, he said, "I'm not going to...I'm not going to talk. Because, as you know, I have several million dollars waiting for me in an offshore bank account. If I tell you about it, I won't, you know, I wont be able to access it later." Margaret 25:51 Did that work? Mo 25:53 I don't think it actually did work particularly well. I think the Court said something like, "You know, this is a little too venal even for us to deal with." But, so...it isn't just anarchists who refuse to cooperate with Grand Juries. And then there's also people who refuse to cooperate with Grand Juries, because they're in fear for their life, which is, I think, maybe even more common than people refusing on principle. Margaret 26:23 Yeah. So how does this come up in movements? Right, like, you know, the the example that we use at the beginning is a fairly like, it ties into the anarchist movement in New York City at that time, but it's a fairly isolated incident. But I'm under the impression that Grand Juries are used or end up disrupting social movements in a broader sense. Mo 26:45 Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever heard the phrase, "Nobody talks, everybody walks"? That's sort of, I think this is not a legal strategy commentary. But, I think the sort of the goal of anarchist communities is to recognize that the more people talk, the more evidence you are creating, the more information you are providing to the State that can--even if you're providing evidence that has nothing to do with unlawful conduct--providing information of any kind to the State gives the state a toehold that gives them a foot in the door, it gives them something to hang a warrant on for example. It just gives them an entree into your community in a way that makes you more vulnerable. And so, you know, when when we're saying, well, "Nobody talks, everybody walks," the less information the State has, the less effective they will be at intruding into your community, at manufacturing allegations of unlawful conduct of fabricating, you know, conspiracy charges. There's all kinds of ways that federal prosecutions can emerge. I mean, I would say, it's important to recognize the way that State repression is used against vulnerable communities generally. A few years ago, there was this really horrific conspiracy prosecution that involved over 100 people in the Bronx. And, you know, there was a guy who ended up in federal prison because the evidence that he was part of this conspiracy was that he waved to somebody at the bodega. Margaret 28:38 Oh, God. Mo 28:38 You know, so when we're talking about, is it protecting our communities? I'm not suggesting that, that there's a conspiracy to hide. It's that...or that there's even unlawful behavior to hide or to conceal. It's just that it is very disturbingly easy for federal law enforcement to sort of manufacture charges and allegations out of whole cloth that can just devastate a community, you know, with long term consequences. So, not handing over information to federal prosecutors or law enforcement of any kind even if you think the information is harmless, or even if you think the information serves to demonstrate your innocence. Any amount of information that's given to federal law enforcement is dangerous to you, and it's dangerous to your community. Margaret 29:46 So, if you get subpoenaed or you suspect you might be subpoenaed. I'm under the impression that because the subpoena is not a warrant, that It's not illegal to...to not get subpoenaed, to avoid being subpoenaed. Is this is this true? Mo 30:09 It's not...I mean, I know what you're trying to say it's not...you're not going to get like arrested for avoiding service of a subpoena, Margaret 30:19 Right? Which means you think they might come to your door, just don't answer the door or don't be there? Not saying that this is the strategy everyone should take, obviously. But, I'm curious...because this whole thing is so anonamalous, a nominal...is out of the ordinary. It...I'm under the impression that there's like, a lot of history of people...like it's a weird...I'm under the impression is a gray area where you're kind of like allowed to go on the run. Like, it's not illegal to flee a subpoena. It would be illegal to flee after you've been subpoenaed is my impression. I'm not telling people what to do. I'm just merely... it's a very interesting part of this whole thing from my point of view, Mo 30:59 It's not necessarily exactly illegal. You could be arrested on what's called a "Material Witness Order." Because you haven't, you're not being accused of a crime. Right? So running isn't exactly illegal. There are examples of people going underground to avoid subpoena. I'm not sure it's...you know, I wouldn't advise somebody to do it as a lawyer. But, you know, I would tell them what the potential consequences might be. But, largely the consequences would be a lot of discomfort and instability, I think. And if you, you know, I guess it sort of depends on what kind of resources you have, if you feel like you want to, if you want to go underground in order to avoid a subpoena, and you think that's going to be easier than getting a movement lawyer to fight the subpoena. Or, you know, I think it would be very disruptive at one way or another, you are going to get a subpoena. It's going to be disruptive. So I guess, pick your poison. Margaret 32:06 Fair enough. I just, I kind of want to go through, like, what happens if you get a subpoena? And you know, obviously, or if you believe you might get subpoenaed. And so when I imagine the flowchart, like, yeah, one of the options is if you're aware that you might be subpoenaed, and you want to disrupt your own life dramatically... Mo 32:25 Certainly. Margaret 32:26 And it's basically a way of LARPing undergrounder because you'd like on the run from the law, but you're not breaking the law to go underground. Mo 32:34 I don't know if you can LARP underground. I don't know if you can learn being underground. You...because even if you're being underground... Margaret 32:44 Legally, Mo 32:45 Because you have a delusion that you might be subpoenaed, you're still going to be really uncomfortable. Margaret 32:52 That's true. Yep. Okay, Mo 32:55 The consequences are still going to be real. Margaret 32:57 Yeah. Mo 32:58 But sure, one of the...one of your, one of the options available to you is to go underground. And then another option that's available to you is to call an attorney. I'm gonna give you the hotline number, the National Lawyers Guild, federal defense hotline is (212) 679-2811. And if you call that hotline, you will get me, and you can have a privileged, confidential, and secure conversation about your rights, risks and responsibilities. And I will do my very best to connect you with appropriate legal resources in your jurisdiction. And that's a better idea, in my opinion then going underground, but I am not the person who's looking at subpoena. So that is a choice that you get to make. Margaret 33:53 Yeah, I'm not advocating here. I'm just like, you know, laying out options to people. Mo 34:00 It is an option. Margaret 34:01 Okay. Okay. So if you get the subpoena, and you decide to fight it, and they call you, what next? Mo 34:08 I'll take a look at the subpoena, or your attorney will. Your attorney will take a look at the subpoena. They will call the prosecutor who issued the subpoena. Typically, they'll ask for some time to postpone the date of appearance so that they can put together some legal arguments and try to have the subpoena quashed, which as I said before means nullified or withdrawn. They try to look for some way in which the subpoena is unenforceable or invalid. And that can be on the grounds again of the First Amendment. Like, "This subpoena intrudes into First Amendment protected behavior. The subpoena is a Fourth Amendment violation," or "We believe that it that the subpoena was issued on the basis of evidence that was illegally obtained by the prosecution." Or, "This subpoena in some way violates the Sixth Amendment," or, very commonly, "This subpoena violates the Fifth Amendment and testifying in front of this Grand Jury would expose the witness to criminal liability." So, you make all of those arguments. If the federal prosecutor really wants you to give testimony, what they will very frequently do is approach the federal government or they'll approach the Department Of Justice and ask for what's called an "Immunity Order", which undermines your right against compelled self-incrimination, because it involves a promise not to prosecute you. And so, the idea is that they can then compel your testimony, because nothing you say could be self-incriminating, Margaret 35:55 Right. But it's still incriminates everyone else you know, and... Mo 35:59 That's right. Margaret 36:00 Which could lead to them... Mo 36:00 And probably still yourself anyway. Margaret 36:02 Right, because then if they get someone else to talk, they could talk about you, and then their testimony can be used against you. Mo 36:08 And your own testimony can be used against you, it just isn't quite as straightforward as it might otherwise be. Margaret 36:13 Oh, cool. Okay. Mo 36:14 No, Immunity Orders are not meaningful in the way that the government would like to have you believe. So, you know, honestly, testifying before a federal Grand Jury really does...I can't emphasize how dangerous it is, it really does expose you and anyone else, you know, to criminal liability, even if you haven't done anything unlawful, because this is really a situation where your innocence will not protect you. And very often, especially if we're talking about the sort of world of "conspiracy", the very fact that you might be perceived to have information in itself can be parlayed into evidence of culpability. You know, there's there's just a lot of ways in which giving testimony before a federal Grand Jury is very dangerous, and really exposes you and anyone, you know, to criminal liability. And it also perpetuates the cycle of more Grand Jury subpoenas being issued, Margaret 37:31 Right. Because they know it works. Mo 37:34 Well. Because, if one person responds and goes before the federal Grand Jury, and are asked who was at the anarchist meeting in 1998, and then says, "Oh, I think, you know, Jose, Joseph and Joe, were all there." Then Jose Joseph and Joe will get supoenas. Margaret 37:55 You know this is a public show, though, right? You just used their names... Mo 37:59 Oh. Hahah. Margaret 37:59 And I really like interrupting you with jokes, because I feel like a jerk every time I do it. Anyway, I'm sorry. Please continue. Mo 38:12 I love you very much. Margaret 38:13 Thanks. Mo 38:18 Yeah, it perpetuates a cycle of more subpoenas being issued, because anybody who says anything, the prosecutor then takes anything they've said, and you know anybody's name who comes up gets, then that that person gets a subpoena. They also, you know, the more information you give them, the more that they can figure out how to target people who feel isolated and vulnerable, and who are more likely to cooperate, right. So if you...and just to be clear, what the federal government perceives as like "vulnerabilities and weaknesses" are not necessarily things that are vulnerabilities and weaknesses. So for example, they may target people who have children, believing that, you know, someone who has a child will be more willing to cooperate with the federal government, then to potentially risk prison time for a refusal to cooperate. They might target someone who's gender non conforming, you know, on the belief that, you know, a trans person would be less likely to be able to like tolerate the idea of going to prison. They might target someone who has mental health issues, or who has a lot of friction in their community. The belief that a person who has...who's sort of fighting with other people in their community will have an incentive to, I guess, to talk shit about those people, and to give them up and to give the government information. I think the federal government thinks we're a lot less organized and a lot more petty than we are. And, I think the federal government thinks that we have a lot less courage than we have. But yeah. Margaret 40:12 I mean, it's one of the reasons that Grand Juries are scary, right, is that it's one of the things where, as you said earlier, like "Innocence will not protect you," you know, like, there is a level of risk just being socially engaged in activist movements, right, and so, you know what, whether or not you...what...whether or not you like do crimes, doesn't necessarily, like affect the degree to which this particular threat might threaten you? Mo 40:47 Yeah, I mean, I think this is the point where, you know, to return to the story of what happened to Jerry, right? Nobody ever said that Jerry knew anything about the Bicycle Bombing. Nobody ever said Jerry was involved in the Bicycle Bombing. The claim that was made is that he might have been present when a couple of other people were having a casual conversation about it. Margaret 41:11 Right. Mo 41:12 Which is, you know, one of the reasons that we say like, "Don't speculate. Don't make jokes. Don't brag," right? Like, because you're not just exposing yourself to liability. You're exposing anyone who hears you, or who is believed to have heard you to a Grand Jury subpoena, which if they're a principled person means exposing them to prison time, Margaret 41:41 Right. When when Grand Jury stuff hit closer to me, and it started affecting more my friends, and you know, when Jerry went to jail and stuff it, you know, sort of selfishly scared me. I had nothing to do with any of that stuff. I wasn't living in New York, any of that. But just that realization, my that my like, non crime-ness is not enough to keep me safe or whatever. But then, I guess I'm trying to, like, offer this, like note of courage or hope, I guess, which is my legal strategy is hope. But, that's not true. Mo 42:16 When you say it like that, it actually sounds reasonable, though. Margaret 42:19 Well, okay. But so the one of the things that I remember when we were working on on Jerry's campaign, was there's this flowchart of Grand Juries, right? And what can happen to you at each stage. And the end result of that is freedom. Mo 42:38 Yes. Margaret 42:39 Like, the degree to which it sucks before then varies. But, the the end result is that you're out and you're back with people, and everyone knows that you're fucking badass and have their backs. And, and, and I feel like that's a useful thing that like, I hold on to, and that I think other people. I mean... Mo 43:02 That's true. I think that's true. You know, there...it is finite. There's a few really unusual cases where someone has been charged with instead of Civil Contempt, Criminal Contempt. There are, you know, a few very, very specific instances where, you know, really post 9/11 people who were alleged to have been involved in, quote, "terrorism," have done very serious prison time on Criminal Contempt for refusing to cooperate with a Grand Jury. But typically, what we're looking at is a maximum of 18 months, which doesn't have no lasting consequences. Margaret 43:51 Oh, yeah. Mo 43:51 But, but it is finite. Margaret 43:54 Yeah. Mo 43:55 You know, I mean, one of the things about Grand Juries for...in terms of resisting as a community, is that federal Grand Juries are secret, right? No one can talk about what happens in the Grand Jury room, with one significant exception, which is the witness. The witness can disclose that they've been subpoenaed. The witness can say what they said or what they didn't say. They can say what they were asked. And the power of the federal Grand Jury really does very much lie in its secrecy. You know, I said, there's no judge there. There's no defense attorney there. I think even more importantly, there's no public there. Right? And so it functions to isolate the witness. It functions or it is intended to function to isolate the witness. But the fact is, you know, one of the things that, as you know, Jerry did was he stood out on the courthouse steps and he made a statement and he said, "I've been subpoenaed. This is what I think they want to ask me about. I'm not going to talk to them about it." He went into the Grand Jury room, he came out and disclosed what he had been asked very publicly, you know, he made a bunch of statements about his commitment to principle, and people really rallied around him. And that really served to undermine that terrifying power of secrecy, just by making that process more transparent. Margaret 45:34 Yeah. Well, are there any final thoughts about Grand Juries that you want to want to offer the audience? Or did we miss anything major? Mo 45:46 So, you know, we were just talking about how, you know, in Jerry's case, and in many other cases, I've, I've litigated, the witness has been very public about their experience with the Grand Jury with the subpoena with litigation. And this is socially useful and politically useful. I will, I'd like to let your audience also know, it's legally very useful, because at the end of this process, when you're trying to demonstrate to a judge that your client is in-coercible, that they, that the incarceration that has been imposed upon them in order to coerce them, isn't working, and is therefore punitive, but since they haven't been given any due process, they're not allowed to be punished and should therefore be released. The evidence that you put before the judge is evidence of the witness's articulated moral conviction, their psychological makeup, and all of these social incentives that have not wavered or changed over, you know, some not insignificant period of confinement. So, all of those sorts of public statements, and, and those acts of silence before the Grand Jury, those are, in fact, the substantive evidence that will hopefully serve to win their freedom. Margaret 47:09 Yeah. Mo 47:11 And in fact, one part of the evidence is social support. So the more you can educate your community about what a Grand Jury is, why they're dangerous to the community, and really help people to rally around, it sort of...showing that kind of community support, also functions to help the judge understand that it would truly be a loss, a moral loss for the witness at this point to disappoint all these, all these supporters. I want to reiterate sort of the consequences of cooperation with a Grand Jury, because, you know, being confined in a federal prison is terrible, and, and frightening and hugely disruptive. So, you know, I think there are a lot of incentives for people to cooperate. But I think people really need to understand that the consequences of cooperation don't just include snitching about criminal conduct. It includes disclosing information about people and movements, that is totally unrelated to illegal behavior, but can be compromising in other ways that aren't any of the State's business that can cause internal conflict in movements, can chill other people's commitment to movements, their willingness to participate in movements. And, of course, the, you know, the consequence that I keep talking about is the witness themself ending up in prison, which, you know, if you are convicted of a federal criminal offense, as opposed to being civilly confined, because you're refusing to cooperate with a Grand Jury, the sentencing guidelines for federal offenses are typically way longer than 18 months. So you know, when we're talking about going in for being a recalcitrant witness, and saying, I'm not going to cooperate with a federal Grand Jury, it is truly finite, which is may or may not be the case, if you end up incriminating yourself or somehow exposing yourself to criminal liability. And then you're looking at a much longer sentence that, you know, that is punitive. And that that is going to last a lot longer than 18 months likely. Margaret 49:38 So it's kind of a parallel to the whole like, "Shut the fuck up when you're arrested thing," where like, all right, you're going to jail and the difference is whether you're going to jail, like for a couple of days or you know, for a long ass time. Mo 49:53 Right. I mean, I again, I cannot advise someone not to cooperate with a Grand Jury. That's not my role, it would be unethical for me to do that. But what I can do and what my job is to do is to make clear what all the various consequences might be... Margaret 50:15 Okay. Mo 50:16 Of cooperation, or non cooperation. And I'm not going to, I'm not gonna lie, like, if you're subpoenaed before a federal Grand Jury, and it's at all politically motivated, you know, there is a long history of federal Grand Jury abuse in this country that goes back to, you know, prosecuting abolitionists for sedition, and continues through the labor movement, and the 19th century anarchist movement, and the Women's Rights movement and anti-war stuff, and Black Panthers and environmental stuff and the Green Scare. It's a pretty strong through line of using the federal Grand Jury to disrupt, drain, distract, and repress social movements. Margaret 51:07 Yeah. Mo 51:09 And one of the reasons that Grand Jury subpoenas are such a powerful tool is that the government's basically always going to get something that they want, right, they might not get to put all of you in prison, but you know, they're gonna get something. Either they're gonna get the information they want, which has sort of the added consequence of disrupting a whole community, because everyone's afraid. And there are indictments and convictions. Or they can get someone to cooperate and catch them in a perjury trap, and then exploit that person for more information by agreeing not to prosecute them for the perjury, or they can subpoena someone that they absolutely know, for a fact will not cooperate. And then they can do what I would call "coercing Contempt of Court", right? Because they've subpoenaed someone they know is going to...they can be held in Contempt. And then they exact a real cost from that witness, and from the whole community, and they're draining the whole community of time and energy and resources, and distracting from the actual work that that community was trying to do in the first place. Margaret 52:17 Yeah. Mo 52:17 So, you know, I think your exhortation to hope is well taken. But, I also want to be very real about the fact that a Grand Jury subpoena, in and of itself, can be extremely disruptive. That said, I mean, we have been through this a bunch of times. We know how to support each other. We know how to endure the consequences of resistance. We also know how to endure the consequences of people betraying us in cooperating with Grand Juries. Right? And there's people like me, there's lawyers and legal workers and people like you, and people like Jerry, who is now both a former Grand Jury resistor and a lawyer. Margaret 53:05 Yeah! That's cool. Mo 53:07 Yeah, I know, I couldn't yell, any harder. There's, you know, there's a lot of people out there who have already been through this crucible. Margaret 53:16 Yeah. Mo 53:18 You know, and like I said, there's ways to protect each other from subpoena by observing good security hygiene. Margaret 53:24 Yeah. It's a...it's a..it's a...it's a proud lineage to be part of, you know, if you need to hold on to something, like going through the like history of people who've been fucked over by Grand Juries. It's like, you just like listing the high points of American history, you know, like... Mo 53:43 No, I mean, you're gonna be in good company. Margaret 53:45 Yeah. Mo 53:46 I mean, to be clear, not every federal Grand Jury is...I mean, every prosecution is political. Margaret 53:52 Right. Mo 53:53 But, not every Grand Jury investigation is explicitly motivated by political animus against the person who's being investigated. Margaret 54:02 Right. Mo 54:03 But there is, you know, there is a very well documented history of the federal government just using Grand Jury subpoenas to gather information to disrupt, to, to criminalize people who haven't actually done anything unlawful to criminalize people who are doing something that is unlawful, but just. Margaret 54:28 All right. Well, if people want to know more about Grand Juries, is there any resources you could point them to? Or? Mo 54:35 No, there's no resources, sorry. Margaret 54:37 Okay. Wait...are you doing dry sarcasm back at me? I'm supposed to do the dry sarcasm. Mo 54:44 Sorry. No, there are there are resources. There are some zines out there that I think are pretty good. There's one that we put together during Standing Rock. There's...actually, oh no, that's on jury nullification. There's a really great--this is off topic so you can totally feel free to cut it--there's a really great scene on jury nullification that was written and illustrated by the guy who wrote "Go The Fuck To Sleep." Margaret 55:10 Oh, that rules. We're gonna keep that in. Okay, cool. Mo 55:13 Anyway, yeah, there's like there's good zines. There's a--I think it still exists now I gotta google it...Oh well, the CLDC, the Civil Liberties Defense Center, and Lauren Regan have a Grand Jury brochure that's good. Oh, and then here it is the Grand Jury Resistance Project. I think this is what it is. This is at GrandJuryResistance.org. And CLDC.org has a brochure about about Grand Juries. There's also some information from...there's a really great resource that is on SparrowMedia.net. That is a letter that Chelsea Manning wrote to the judge in that case when I was representing her, that goes through sort of the history of Grand Juries in the United States and internationally. And I think it's, if I say so myself, it's a really thorough and really compelling letter. And, I think it was really helpful in educating the judge about, you know, what her reasons were at least, for refusing to participate in the federal Grand Jury system, and what her objections were. So if anyone's interested in that again, that's at SparrowMedia.net. And, they have a search function. Margaret 56:33 Cool. Mo 56:33 And it was the letter that Chelsea Manning wrote to Judge Trenga at some point when we were trying to get her out. Margaret 56:42 Okay, well, thank you so much for taking time out to tell everyone about this terrible thing. Mo 56:49 My pleasure? Margaret 56:52 Do you have any anything else that you want to shout out or ways that people should or shouldn't reach you or anything you want to promote? Mo 56:57 Yeah, I would, I would just like to remind people that there's really never any reason to talk to police officers of any kind. Certainly not prior to consulting an attorney. If cops knock on your door, tell them you are represented by counsel, and to leave their name and number and your lawyer will call them back. Feel free to call me at the National Lawyers Guild Federal Defense Hotline at (212) 679-2811. And just remember, if you are arrested to say, "I am going to remain silent, and I want to speak to a lawyer," and then actually remain silent. Margaret 57:41 Sounds good. All right. Well, thank you so much. Mo 57:45 You're very welcome. Margaret 57:51 Thank you so much for listening. I hope you never need the information that was in this week's episode. But, I feel like it's worth having in your back pocket just in case, like a lot of preparedness. And see this is a preparedness episode, you all were like, "The fuck have to do preparedness?' Well, we want to be prepared for a lot of different threat models. So if you enjoyed this episode, you should tell people about it. You can tell people about it in person. And you can tell people about it on the internet. And you can tell algorithms about it by liking and subscribing and rating and reviewing and all that nonsense that tells robots what to do. And you can also support this podcast by supporting the people who helped make, which it just not just me anymore, it's a whole team of people working at a publisher that I'm part of, an anarchist collective publisher, called a Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness. And if you support us on Patreon, you'll get access to...well, you won't get access to a ton of like unique content. But, what instead is you'll support us making content. And then if you support us $10 A month you'll get a zine in the mail every month, and anywhere in the world. In particular, I would like to thank Mikki, and Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher Eleanor, Natalie Kirk, Micaiah, Nora, Sam, Chris, and Hoss the dog. Your support makes this show and so many other projects possible. Alright, well that's it for now. And I will talk, I guess "at" you soon, not really "to" you because it's kind of a one way communication media, which is kind of weird, but it is what it is. I hope you all are doing as well as you can with everything that's going on. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co
Episode Notes Episode summary Margaret talks with Elle an anarchist and security professional about different threat modeling approaches and analyzing different kinds of threats. They explore physical threats, digital security, communications, surveillance,and general OpSec mentalities for how to navigate the panopticon and do stuff in the world without people knowing about it...if you're in Czarist Russia of course. Guest Info Elle can be found on twitter @ellearmageddon. Host and Publisher The host Margaret Killjoy can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Show Links Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Elle on Threat Modeling Margaret 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like The World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret killjoy. And with me at the exact moment is my dog, who has just jumped up to try and talk into the microphone and bite my arm. And, I use 'she' and 'they' pronouns. And this week, I'm going to be talking to my friend Elle, who is a, an anarchist security professional. And we're going to be talking about threat modeling. And we're going to be talking about how to figure out what people are trying to do to you and who's trying to do it and how to deal with different people trying to do different things. Like, what is the threat model around the fact that while I'm trying to record a podcast, my dog is biting my arm? And I am currently choosing to respond by trying to play it for humor and leaving it in rather than cutting it out and re recording. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Jingle Margaret 02:00 Okay, if you could introduce yourself, I guess, with your name and your pronouns, and then maybe what you do as relates to the stuff that we're going to be talking about today. Elle 02:10 Yeah, cool. Hi, I'm Elle. My pronouns are they/them. I am a queer, autistic, anarchist security practitioner. I do security for a living now that I've spent over the last decade, working with activist groups and NGOs, just kind of anybody who's got an interesting threat model to help them figure out what they can do to make themselves a little a little safer and a little more secure. Margaret 02:43 So that word threat model. That's actually kind of what I want to have you on today to talk about is, it's this word that we we hear a lot, and sometimes we throw into sentences when we want to sound really smart, or maybe I do that. But what does it mean, what is threat modeling? And why is it relevant? Elle 03:02 Yeah, I actually, I really love that question. Because I think that we a lot of people do use the term threat modeling without really knowing what they mean by it. And so to me, threat modeling is having an understanding of your own life in your own context, and who poses a realistic risk to you, and what you can do to keep yourself safe from them. So whether that's, you know, protecting communications that you have from, you know, state surveillance, or whether it's keeping yourself safe from an abusive ex, your threat model is going to vary based on your own life experiences and what you need to protect yourself from and who those people actually are and what they're capable of doing. Margaret 03:52 Are you trying to say there's not like one solution to all problems that we would just apply? Elle 03:58 You know, I love... Margaret 03:58 I don't understand. Elle 04:00 I know that everybody really, really loves the phrase "Use signal. Use TOR," and you know, thinks that that is the solution to all of life's problems. But it actually turns out that, no, you do have to have both an idea of what it is that you're trying to protect, whether it's yourself or something like your communications and who you're trying to protect it from, and how they can how they can actually start working towards gaining access to whatever it is that you're trying to defend. Margaret 04:31 One of the things that when I think about threat modeling that I think about is this idea of...because the levels of security that you take for something often limit your ability to accomplish different things. Like in Dungeons and Dragons, if you were plate armor, you're less able to be a dexterous rogue and stealth around. And so I think about threat modeling, maybe as like learning to balance....I'm kind of asking this, am I correct in this? Balancing what you're trying to accomplish with who's trying to stop you? Because like, you could just use TOR, for everything. And then also like use links the little like Lynx [misspoke "Tails"] USB keychain and never use a regular computer and never communicate with anyone and then never accomplish anything. But, it seems like that might not work. Elle 05:17 Yeah, I mean, the idea, the idea is to prevent whoever your adversaries are from keeping you from doing whatever you're trying to accomplish. Right? So if the security precautions that you're taking to prevent your adversaries from preventing you from doing a thing are also preventing you from doing the thing, then it doesn't matter, because your adversaries have just won, right? So there, there definitely is a need, you know, to be aware of risks that you're taking and decide which ones make sense, which ones don't make sense. And kind of look at it from from a dynamic of "Okay, is this something that is in my, you know, acceptable risk model? Is this a risk I'm willing to take? Are there things that I can do to, you know, do harm reduction and minimize the risk? Or at least like, make it less? Where are those trade offs? What, what is the maximum amount of safety or security that I can do for myself, while still achieving whatever it is that I'm trying to achieve?" Margaret 06:26 Do you actually ever like, chart it out on like, an X,Y axis where you get like, this is the point where you start getting diminishing returns? I'm just imagining it. I've never done that. Elle 06:37 In, in the abstract, yes, because that's part of how autism brain works for me. But in a, like actually taking pen to paper context, not really. But that's, you know, at least partially, because of that's something that autism brain just does for me. So I think it could actually be a super reasonable thing to do, for people whose brains don't auto filter that for them. But but I'm, I guess, lucky enough to be neurodivergent, and have like, you know, like, we always we joke in tech, "It's not a bug, it's a feature." And I feel like, you know, autism is kind of both sometimes. In some cases, it's totally a bug and and others, it's absolutely a feature. And this is one of the areas where it happens to be a feature, at least for me. Margaret 07:35 That makes sense. I, I kind of view my ADHD as a feature, in that, it allows me to hyper focus on topics and then move on and then not come back to them. Or also, which is what I do now for work with podcasting, and a lot of my writing. It makes it hard to write long books, I gotta admit, Elle 07:56 Yeah, I work with a bunch of people with varying neuro types. And it's really interesting, like, at least at least in my own team, I think that you know, the, the folks who are more towards the autism spectrum disorder side of of the house are more focused on things like application security, and kind of things that require sort of sustained hyper focus. And then folks with ADHD make just absolutely amazing, like incident responders and do really, really well in interrupt driven are interrupts heavy contexts, Margaret 08:38 Or sprinters. Elle 08:40 It's wild to me, because I'm just like, yes, this makes perfect sense. And obviously, like, these different tasks are better suited to different neuro types. But I've also never worked with a manager who actually thought about things in that way before. Margaret 08:53 Right. Elle 08:54 And so it's actually kind of cool to be to be in a position where I can be like, "Hey, like, Does this sound interesting to you? Would you rather focus on this kind of work?" And kind of get that that with people. Margaret 09:06 That makes sense that's.... i I'm glad that you're able to do that. I'm glad that people that you work with are able to have that you know, experience because it is it's hard to it's hard to work within....obviously the topic of today is...to working in the workplace is a neurodivergent person, but it I mean it affects so many of us you know, like almost whatever you do for work the the different ways your brain work are always struggling against it. So. Elle 09:32 Yeah, I don't know. It just it makes sense to me to like do your best to structure your life in a way that is more conducive to your neurotype. Margaret 09:44 Yeah. Elle 09:45 You know, if you can. Margaret 09:49 I don't even realize exactly how age ADHD I was until I tried to work within a normal workforce. I built my entire life around, not needing to live in one place or do one thing for sustained periods of time. But okay, but back to the threat modeling. Margaret 10:07 The first time I heard of, I don't know if it's the first time I heard a threat modeling or not, I don't actually know when I first started hearing that word. But the first time I heard about you, in the context of it was a couple years back, you had some kind of maybe it was tweets or something about how people were assuming that they should use, for example, the more activist focused email service Rise Up, versus whether they should just use Gmail. And I believe that you were making the case that for a lot of things, Gmail would actually be safer, because even though they don't care about you, they have a lot more resources to throw at the problem of keeping governments from reading their emails. That might be a terrible paraphrasing of what you said. But this, this is how I was introduced to this concept of threat modeling. If you wanted to talk about that example, and tell me how I got it all wrong. Elle 10:07 Yeah. Elle 10:58 Yeah. Um, so you didn't actually get it all wrong. And I think that the thing that I would add to that is that if you are engaging in some form of hypersensitive communication, email is not the mechanism that you want to do that. And so when I say things like, "Oh, you know, it probably actually makes sense to use Gmail instead of Rise Up," I mean, you know, contexts where you're maybe communicating with a lawyer and your communications are privileged, right?it's a lot harder to crack Gmail security than it is to crack something like Rise Up security, just by virtue of the volume of resources available to each of those organizations. And so where you specifically have this case where, you know, there's, there's some degree of legal protection for whatever that means, making sure that you're not leveraging something where your communications can be accessed without your knowledge or consent by a third party, and then used in a way that is conducive to parallel construction. Margaret 12:19 So what is parallel construction? Elle 12:20 Parallel construction is a legal term where you obtain information in a way that is not admissible in court, and then use that information to reconstruct a timeline or reconstruct a mechanism of access to get to that information in an admissible way. Margaret 12:39 So like every cop show Elle 12:41 Right, so like, with parallel construction around emails, for example, if you're emailing back and forth with your lawyer, and your lawyer is like, "Alright, like, be straight with me. Because I need to know if you've actually done this crime so that I can understand how best to defend you." And you're like, "Yeah, dude, I totally did that crime," which you should never admit to in writing anyway, because, again, email is not the format that you want to have this conversation in. But like, if you're gonna admit to having done crimes in email, for some reason, how easy it is for someone else to access that admission is important. Because if somebody can access this email admission of you having done the crimes where you're, you know, describing in detail, what crimes you did, when with who, then it starts, like, it gets a lot easier to be like, "Oh, well, obviously, we need to subpoena this person's phone records. And we should see, you know, we should use geolocation tracking of their device to figure out who they were in proximity to and who else was involved in this," and it can, it can be really easy to like, establish a timeline and get kind of the roadmap to all of the evidence that they would need to, to put you in jail. So it's, it's probably worth kind of thinking about how easy it is to access that that information. And again, don't don't admit to doing crimes in email, email is not the format that you want to use for admitting to having done crimes. But if you're going to, it's probably worth making sure that, you know, the the email providers that you are choosing are equipped with both robust security controls, and probably also like a really good legal team. Right? So if...like Rise Up isn't going to comply with the subpoena to the like, to the best of their ability, they're not going to do that, but it's a lot easier to sue Rise Up than it is to sue Google. Margaret 14:51 Right. Elle 14:51 And it's a lot easier to to break Rise Up's security mechanisms than it is to break Google's, just by virtue of how much time and effort each of those entities is able to commit to securing email. Please don't commit to doing crimes in email, just please just don't. Don't do it in writing. Don't do it. Margaret 15:15 Okay, let me change my evening plans. Hold on let me finish sending this email.. Elle 15:23 No! Margaret 15:25 Well, I mean, I guess like the one of the reasons that I thought so much about that example, and why it kind of stuck with me years later was just thinking about what people decide they're safe, because they did some basic security stuff. And I don't know if that counts under threat modeling. But it's like something I think about a lot is about people being like, "I don't understand, we left our cell phones at home and went on a walk in the woods," which is one of the safest ways anyone could possibly have a conversation. "How could anyone possibly have known this thing?" And I'm like, wait, you, you told someone you know, or like, like, not to make people more paranoid, but like... Elle 16:06 Or maybe, maybe you left your cell phone at home, but kept your smartwatch on you, because you wanted to close, you know, you wanted to get your steps for the day while you were having this conversation, right? Margaret 16:19 Because otherwise, does it even count if I'm not wearing my [smartwatch]. Elle 16:21 Right, exactly. And like, we joke, and we laugh, but like, it is actually something that people don't think about. And like, maybe you left your phones at home, and you went for a walk in the woods, but you took public transit together to get there and were captured on a bunch of surveillance cameras. Like there's, there's a lot of, especially if you've actually been targeted for surveillance, which is very rare, because it's very resource intensive. But you know, there there are alternate ways to track people. And it does depend on things like whether or not you've got additional tech on you, whether or not you were captured on cameras. And you know, whether whether or not your voices were picked up by ShotSpotter, as you were walking to wherever the woods were like, there's just there's we live in a panopticon. I don't say that so that people are paranoid about it, I say it because it's a lot easier to think about, where, when and how you want to phrase things. Margaret 17:27 Yeah. Elle 17:28 In a way that you know, still facilitates communications still facilitates achieving whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish, but sets you sets you up to be as safe as possible in doing it. And I think that especially in anarchist circles, just... and honestly also in security circles, there's a lot of of like, dogmatic adherence to security ritual, that may or may not actually make sense based on both, you, who your actual adversaries are, and what their realistic capabilities are. Margaret 18:06 And what they're trying to actually accomplish I feel like is...Okay, one of the threat models that I like...I encourage people sometimes to carry firearms, right in very specific contexts. And it feels like a security... Oh, you had a good word for it that you just used...ritual of security theater, I don't remember...a firearm often feels like that, Elle 18:30 Right. Margaret 18:31 In a way where you're like," Oh, I'm safe now, right, because I'm carrying a firearm." And, for example, I didn't carry a firearm for a very long time. Because for a long time, my threat model, the people who messed with me, were cops. And if a cop is going to mess with me, I do not want to have a firearm on me, because it will potentially escalate a situation in a very bad way. Whereas when I came out and started, you know, when I started getting harassed more for being a scary transwoman, and less for being an anarchist, or a hitchhiker, or whatever, you know, now my threat model is transphobes, who wants to do me harm. And in a civilian-civilian context, I prefer I feel safer. And I believe I am safer in most situations armed in that case. But every time I leave the house, I have to think about "What is my threat model?" And then in a similar way, sorry, it's just me thinking about the threat model of firearms, but it's the main example that I think of, is that often people's threat model in terms of firearms and safety as themselves, right? And so you just actually need to do the soul searching where you're like,"What's more likely to happen to me today? Am I likely to get really sad, or am I likely to get attacked by fascists?" Elle 19:57 Yeah. And I think that there is there's an additional question, especially when you're talking about arming yourself, whether it's firearms, or carrying a knife, or whatever, because like, I don't own any firearms, but I do carry a knife a lot of the time. And so like some questions, some additional questions that you have to ask yourself are, "How confident am I in my own ability to use this to harm another person?" Because if you're going to hesitate, you're gonna get fucked up. Margaret 20:28 Yeah. Elle 20:28 Like, if you are carrying a weapon, and you pull it out and hesitate in using it, it's gonna get taken away from you, and it's going to be used against you. So that's actually one of the biggest questions that I would say people should be asking themselves when developing a threat model around arming themselves is, "Will I actually use this? How confident am I?" if you're not confident, then it's okay to leave it at home. It's okay to practice more. It's okay to like develop that familiarity before you start using it as an EDC. Sorry an Every Day Carry. And then the you know, the other question is, "How likely am I to get arrested here?" I carry, I carry a knife that I absolutely do know how to use most of the time when I leave the house. But when I'm going to go to a demonstration, because the way that I usually engage in protests or in demonstrations is in an emergency medical response capacity, I carry a medic kit instead. And my medic kit is a clean bag that does not have any sharp objects in it. It doesn't have anything that you know could be construed as a weapon it doesn't have...it doesn't...I don't even have weed gummies which are totally like recreationally legal here, right? I won't even put weed in the medic kit. It's it is very much a... Margaret 21:52 Well, if you got a federally arrested you'd be in trouble with that maybe. Elle 21:55 Yeah, sure, I guess. But, like the medic bag is very...nothing goes in this kit ever that I wouldn't want to get arrested carrying. And so there's like EMT shears in there. Margaret 22:12 Right. Elle 22:13 But that's that's it in terms of like... Margaret 22:16 Those are scary you know...the blunted tips. Elle 22:21 I know, the blunted tips and the like safety, whatever on them. It's just...it's it is something to think about is "Where am I going...What...Who am I likely to encounter? And like what are the trade offs here?" Margaret 22:37 I remember once going to a demonstration a very long time ago where our like, big plan was to get in through all of the crazy militarized downtown in this one city and, and the big plan is we're gonna set up a Food Not Bombs inside the security line of the police, you know. And so we picked one person, I think I was the sacrificial person, who had to carry a knife, because we had to get the folding tables that we're gonna put the food on off of the top of the minivan. And we had to do it very quickly, and they were tied on. And so I think I brought the knife and then left it in the car and the car sped off. And then we fed people and they had spent ten million dollars protecting the city from 30 people feeding people Food Not Bombs. Elle 23:20 Amazing. Margaret 23:22 But, but yeah, I mean, whereas every other day in my life, especially back then when I was a hitchhiker, I absolutely carried a knife. Elle 23:30 Yeah. Margaret 23:31 You know, for multiple purposes. Yeah, okay, so then it feels like...I like rooting it in the self defense stuff because I think about that a lot and for me it maybe then makes sense to sort of build up and out from there as to say like...you know, if someone's threat model is my ex-partner's new partner is trying to hack me or my abusive ex is trying to hack me or something, that's just such a different threat model than... Elle 24:04 Yeah, it is. Margaret 24:05 Than the local police are trying to get me versus the federal police are trying to get me versus a foreign country is trying to get me you know, and I and it feels like sometimes those things are like contradictory to each other about what isn't isn't the best maybe. Elle 24:19 They are, because each of those each of those entities is going to have different mechanisms for getting to you and so you know, an abusive partner or abusive ex is more likely to have physical access to you, and your devices, than you know, a foreign entity is, right? Because there's there's proximity to think about, and so you know, you might want to have....Actually the....Okay, so the abusive ex versus the cops, right. A lot of us now have have phones where the mechanism for accessing them is either a password, or some kind of biometric identifier. So like a fingerprint, or you know, face ID or whatever. And there's this very dogmatic adherence to "Oh, well, passwords are better." But passwords might actually not be better. Because if somebody has regular proximity to you, they may be able to watch you enter your password and get enough information to guess it. And if you're, if you're not using a biometric identifier, in those use cases, then what can happen is they can guess your password, or watch, you type it in enough time so that they get a good feeling for what it is. And they can then access your phone without your knowledge while you're sleeping. Right? Margaret 25:46 Right. Elle 25:47 And sometimes just knowing whether or not your your adversary has access to your phone is actually a really useful thing. Because you know how much information they do or don't have. Margaret 26:01 Yeah. No that's... Elle 26:03 And so it really is just about about trade offs and harm reduction. Margaret 26:08 That never would have occurred to me before. I mean, it would occur to me if someone's trying to break into my devices, but I have also fallen into the all Biometrics is bad, right? Because it's the password, you can't change because the police can compel you to open things with biometrics, but they can't necessarily compel you...is more complicated to be compelled to enter a password. Elle 26:31 I mean, like, it's only as complicated as a baton. Margaret 26:34 Yeah, there's that XKCD comic about this. Have you seen it? Elle 26:37 Yes. Yes, I have. And it is it is an accurate....We like in security, we call it you know, the Rubber Hose method, right? It we.... Margaret 26:46 The implication here for anyone hasn't read it is that they can beat you up and get you to give them their [password]. Elle 26:50 Right people, people will usually if they're hit enough times give up their password. So you know, I would say yeah, you should disable biometric locks, if you're going to go out to a demonstration, right? Which is something that I do. I actually do disable face ID if I'm taking my phone to a demo. But it...you may want to use it as your everyday mechanism, especially if you're living in a situation where knowing whether or not your abuser has access to your device is likely to make a difference in whether you have enough time to escape. Margaret 27:30 Right. These axioms or these these beliefs we all have about this as the way to do security,the you know...I mean, it's funny, because you brought up earlier like use Signal use Tor, I am a big advocate of like, I just use Signal for all my communication, but I also don't talk about crime pretty much it in general anyway. You know. So it's more like just like bonus that it can't be read. I don't know. Elle 27:57 Yeah. I mean, again, it depends, right? Because Signal...Signal has gotten way more usable. I've been, I've been using Signal for a decade, you know, since it was still Redphone and TextSecure. And in the early days, I used to joke that it was so secure, sometimes your intended recipients don't even get the messages. Margaret 28:21 That's how I feel about GPG or PGP or whatever the fuck. Elle 28:24 Oh, those those.... Margaret 28:27 Sorry, didn't mean to derail you. Elle 28:27 Let's not even get started there. But so like Signal again, has gotten much better, and is way more reliable in terms of delivery than it used to be. But I used to, I used to say like, "Hey, if it's if it's really, really critical that your message reach your recipient, Signal actually might not be the way to do it." Because if you need if you if you're trying to send a time sensitive message with you know guarantee that it actually gets received, because Signal used to be, you know, kind of sketchy on or unreliable on on delivery, it might not have been the best choice at the time. One of the other things that I think that people, you know, think...don't think about necessarily is that Signal is still widely viewed as a specific security tool. And that's, that's good in a lot of cases. But if you live somewhere, for example, like Belarus, where it's not generally considered legal to encrypt things, then the presence of Signal on your device is enough in and of itself to get you thrown in prison. Margaret 29:53 Right. Elle 29:53 And so sometimes having a mechanism like, you know, Facebook secret messages might seem like a really, really sketchy thing to do. But if your threat model is you can't have security tools on your phone, but you still want to be able to send encrypted messages or ephemeral messages, then that actually might be the best way to kind of fly under the radar. So yeah, it again just really comes down to thinking about what it is that you're trying to protect? From who? And under what circumstances? Margaret 30:32 Yeah, I know, I like this. I mean, obviously, of course, you've thought about this thing that you think about. I'm like, I'm just like, kind of like, blown away thinking about these things. Although, okay, one of these, like security things that I kind of want to push back on, and actually, this is a little bit sketchy to push back on, the knife thing. To go back to a knife. I am. I have talked to a lot of people who have gotten themselves out of very bad situations by drawing a weapon without then using it, which is illegal. It is totally illegal. Elle 31:03 Yes Margaret 31:03 I would never advocate that anyone threaten anyone with a weapon. But, I know people who have committed this crime in order to...even I mean, sometimes it's in situations where it'd be legal to stab somebody,like... Elle 31:16 Sure. Margaret 31:16 One of the strangest laws in the United States is that, theoretically, if I fear for my life, I can draw a gun.... And not if I fear for my life, if I am, if my life is literally being threatened, physically, if I'm being attacked, I can I can legally draw a firearm and shoot someone, I can legally pull a knife and stab someone to defend myself. I cannot pull a gun and say "Back the fuck off." And not only is it illegal, but it also is a security axiom, I guess that you would never want to do that. Because as you pointed out, if you hesitate now the person has the advantage, they have more information than they used to. But I still know a lot of hitchhikers who have gotten out of really bad situations by saying, "Let me the fuck out of the car." Elle 32:05 Sure. Margaret 32:06 Ya know?. Elle 32:06 Absolutely. It's not....Sometimes escalating tactically can be a de-escalation. Right? Margaret 32:17 Right. Elle 32:18 Sometimes pulling out a weapon or revealing that you have one is enough to make you no longer worth attacking. But you never know how someone's going to respond when you do that, right? Margaret 32:33 Totally Elle 32:33 So you never know whether it's going to cause them to go "Oh shit, I don't want to get stabbed or I don't want to get shot," and stop or whether it's going to trigger you know a more aggressive response. So it doesn't mean that you know, you, if you pull a weapon you have to use it. Margaret 32:52 Right. Elle 32:53 But if you're going to carry one then you do need to be confident that you will use it. Margaret 32:58 No, that that I do agree with that. Absolutely. Elle 33:00 And I think that is an important distinction, and I you know I also think that...not 'I think', using a gun and using a knife are two very different things. For a lot of people, pulling the trigger on a gun is going to be easier than stabbing someone. Margaret 33:20 Yeah that's true. Elle 33:21 Because of the proximity to the person and because of how deeply personal stabbing someone actually is versus how detached you can be and still pull the trigger. Margaret 33:35 Yeah. Elle 33:36 Like I would...it sounds...it feels weird to say but I would actually advocate most people carry a gun instead of a knife for that reason, and also because if you're, if you're worried about being physically attacked, you know you have more range of distance where you can use something like a gun than you do with a knife. You have to be, you have to be in close quarters to to effectively use a knife unless you're like really good at throwing them for some reason and even I wouldn't, cause if you miss...now your adversary has a knife. Margaret 34:14 I know yeah. Unless you miss by a lot. I mean actually I guess if you hit they have a knife now too. Elle 34:22 True. Margaret 34:23 I have never really considered whether or not throwing knives are effective self-defense weapons and I don't want to opine too hard on this show. Elle 34:31 I advise against it. Margaret 34:32 Yeah. Okay, so to go back to threat modeling about more operational security type stuff. You're clearly not saying these are best practices, but you're instead it seems like you're advocating of "This as the means by which you might determine your best practices." Elle 34:49 Yes. Margaret 34:49 Do you have a...do you have a a tool or do you have like a like, "Hey, here's some steps you can take." I mean, we all know you've said like, "Think about your enemy," and such like that, but Is there a more...Can you can you walk me through that? Elle 35:04 I mean, like, gosh, it really depends on who your adversary is, right? Elle 35:10 Like, if you're if you're thinking about an abusive partner, that's obviously going to vary based on things like, you know, is your abusive partner, someone who has access to weapons? Are they someone who is really tech savvy? Or are they not. At...The things that you have to think about are going to just depend on the skills and tools that they have access to? Is your abusive partner or your abusive ex a cop? Because that changes some things. Margaret 35:10 Yeah, fair enough. Margaret 35:20 Yeah. Elle 35:27 So like, most people, if they actually have a real and present kind of persistent threat in their life, also have a pretty good idea of what that threat is capable of, or what that threat actor or is capable of. And so it, it's it, I think, it winds up being fairly easy to start thinking about things in terms of like, "Okay, how is this person going to come after me? How, what, what tools do they have? What skills do they have? What ability do they have to kind of attack me or harm me?" But I think that, you know, as we start getting away from that really, really, personal threat model of like the intimate partner violence threat model, for example, and start thinking about more abstract threat models, like "I'm an anarchist living in a state," because no state is particularly fond of us. Margaret 36:50 Whaaaat?! Elle 36:51 I know it's wild, because like, you know, we just want to abolish the State and States, like want to not be abolished, and I just don't understand how, how they would dislike us for any reason.. Margaret 37:03 Yeah, it's like when I meet someone new, and I'm like, "Hey, have you ever thought about being abolished?" They're usually like, "Yeah, totally have a beer." Elle 37:10 Right. No, it's... Margaret 37:11 Yes. Elle 37:11 For sure. Um, but when it comes to when it comes to thinking about, you know, the anarchist threat model, I think that a lot of us have this idea of like, "Oh, the FBI is spying on me personally." And the likelihood of the FBI specifically spying on 'you' personally is like, actually pretty slim. But... Margaret 37:34 Me? Elle 37:35 Well... Margaret 37:37 No, no, I want to go back to thinking about it's slim, it's totally slim. Elle 37:41 Look...But like, there's there is a lot like, we know that, you know, State surveillance dragnet exists, right, we know that, you know, plaintext text messages, for example, are likely to be caught both by, you know, Cell Site Simulators, which are in really, really popular use by law enforcement agencies. Margaret 38:08 Which is something that sets up and pretends to be a cell tower. So it takes all the data that is transmitted over it. And it's sometimes used set up at demonstrations. Elle 38:16 Yes. So they, they both kind of convinced your phone into thinking that they are the nearest cell tower, and then actually pass your communications on to the next, like the nearest cell tower. So your communications do go through, they're just being logged by this entity in the middle. That's, you know, not great. But using something... Margaret 38:38 Unless you're the Feds. Elle 38:39 I mean, even if you... Margaret 38:41 You just have to think about it from their point of. Hahah. Elle 38:42 Even if you are the Feds, that's actually too much data for you to do anything useful with, you know? Margaret 38:50 Okay, I'll stop interuppting you. Haha. Elle 38:51 Like, it's just...but if you're if you are a person who is a person of interest who's in this group, where a cell site simulator has been deployed or whatever, then then that you know, is something that you do have to be concerned about and you know, even if you're not a person of interest if you're like texting your friend about like, "All right, we do crime in 15 minutes," like I don't know, it's maybe not a great idea. Don't write it down if you're doing crime. Don't do crime. But more importantly don't don't create evidence that you're planning to do crime, because now you've done two crimes which is the crime itself and conspiracy to commit a crime Margaret 39:31 Be straight. Follow the law. That's the motto here. Elle 39:35 Yes. Oh, sorry. I just like I don't know, autism brain involuntarily pictured, like an alternate universe in which in where which I am straight, and law abiding. And I'm just I'm very... Margaret 39:52 Sounds terrible. I'm sorry. Elle 39:53 Right. Sounds like a very boring.... Margaret 39:55 Sorry to put that image in your head. Elle 39:56 I mean, I would never break laws. Margaret 39:58 No. Elle 39:59 Ever Never ever. I have not broken any laws I will not break any laws. No, I think that... Margaret 40:08 The new "In Minecraft" is "In Czarist Russia." Instead of saying "In Minecraft," because it's totally blown. It's only okay to commit crimes "In Czarist Russia." Elle 40:19 Interesting. Margaret 40:23 All right. We don't have to go with that. I don't know why i got really goofy. Elle 40:27 I might be to Eastern European Jewish for that one. Margaret 40:31 Oh God. Oh, my God, now I just feel terrible. Elle 40:34 It's It's fine. It's fine. Margaret 40:36 Well, that was barely a crime by east... Elle 40:40 I mean it wasn't necessarily a crime, but like my family actually emigrated to the US during the first set of pogroms. Margaret 40:51 Yeah. Elle 40:52 So like, pre Bolshevik Revolution. Margaret 40:57 Yeah. Elle 40:59 But yeah, anyway. Margaret 41:02 Okay, well, I meant taking crimes like, I basically think that, you know, attacking the authorities in Czarist Russia is a more acceptable action is what I'm trying to say, I really don't have to try and sell you on this plan. Elle 41:16 I'm willing to trust your judgment here. Margaret 41:19 That's a terrible plan, but I appreciate you, okay. Either way, we shouldn't text people about the crimes that we're doing. Elle 41:26 We should not text people about the crimes that we're planning on doing. But, if you are going to try to coordinate timelines, you might want to do that using some form of encrypted messenger so that whatever is logged by a cell site simulator, if it is in existence is not possible by the people who are then retrieving those logs. And you know, and another reason to use encrypted messengers, where you can is that you don't necessarily want your cell provider to have that unencrypted message block. And so if you're sending SMS, then your cell, your cell provider, as the processor of that data has access to an unencrypted or plain text version of whatever text message you're sending, where if you're using something like Signal or WhatsApp, or Wicker, or Wire or any of the other, like, multitude of encrypted messengers that you could theoretically be using, then it's it's also not going directly through your your provider, which I think is an interesting distinction. Because, you know, we we know, from, I mean, we kind of sort of already knew, but we know for a fact, from the Snowden Papers, that cell providers will absolutely turn over your data to the government if they're asked for it. And so minimizing the amount of data that they have about you to turn over to the government is generally a good practice. Especially if you can do it in a way that isn't going to be a bunch of red flags. Margaret 43:05 Right, like being in Belarus and using Signal. Elle 43:08 Right. Exactly. Margaret 43:10 Okay. Also, there's the Russian General who used an unencrypted phone where he then got geo located and blowed up. Elle 43:23 Yeah. Margaret 43:24 Also bad threat modeling on that that guy's part, it seems like Elle 43:28 I it, it certainly seems to...that person certainly seems to have made several poor life choices, not the least of which was being a General in the Russian army. Margaret 43:41 Yeah, yeah. That, that tracks. So one of the things that we talked about, while we were talking about having this conversation, our pre-conversation conversation was about...I think you brought up this idea that something that feels secret, doesn't mean it is, and Elle 43:59 Yeah! Margaret 44:00 I'm wondering if you had more thoughts about that concept? It's not a very good prompt. Elle 44:05 So like, it's it's a totally reasonable prompt, we say a lot that, you know, security and safety are a feeling. And I think that that actually is true for a lot of us. But there's this idea that, Oh, if you use coded language, for example, then like, you can't get caught. I don't actually think that's true, because we tend to use coded language that's like, pretty easily understandable by other people. Because the purpose of communicating is to communicate. Margaret 44:42 Yeah. Elle 44:43 And so usually, if you're like, code language is easy enough to be understood by whoever it is you're trying to communicate with, like, someone else can probably figure it the fuck out too. Especially if you're like, "Hey, man, did you bring the cupcakes," and your friend is like, "Yeah!" And then an explosion goes off shortly thereafter, right? It's like, "Oh, by cupcakes, they meant dynamite." So I, you know, I think that rather than then kind of like relying on this, you know, idea of how spies work or how, how anarchists communicated secretly, you know, pre WTO it's, it's worth thinking about how the surveillance landscape has adapted over time, and thinking a little bit more about what it means to engage in, in the modern panopticon, or the contemporary panopticon, because those capabilities have changed over time. And things like burner phones are a completely different prospect now than they used to be. Actually... Margaret 45:47 In that they're easier or wose? Elle 45:49 Oh, there's so much harder to obtain now. Margaret 45:51 Yeah, okay. Elle 45:52 It's it is so much easier to correlate devices that have been used in proximity to each other than it used to be. And it's so much easier to, you know, capture people on surveillance cameras than it used to be. I actually wrote a piece for Crimethinc about this some years ago, that that I think kind of still holds up in terms of how difficult it really, really is to procure a burner phone. And in order to do to do that safely, you would have to pay cash somewhere that couldn't capture you on camera doing it, and then make sure that it was never turned on in proximity with your own phone anywhere. And you would have to make sure that it only communicated with other burner phones, because the second it communicates with a phone that's associated to another person, there's a connection between your like theoretical burner phone and that person. And so you can be kind of triangulated back to, especially if you've communicated with multiple people. It just it is so hard to actually obtain a device that is not in any way affiliated with your identity or the identity of any of your comrades. But, we have to start thinking about alternative mechanisms for synchronous communication. Margaret 47:18 Okay. Elle 47:18 And, realistically speaking, taking a walk in the woods is still going to be the best way to do it. Another reasonable way to go about having a conversation that needs to remain private is actually to go somewhere that is too loud and too crowded to...for anyone to reasonably overhear or to have your communication recorded. So using using the kind of like, signal to noise ratio in your favor. Margaret 47:51 Yeah. Elle 47:52 To help drown out your own signal can be really, really useful. And I think that that's also true of things like using Gmail, right? The signal to noise ratio, if you're not using a tool that's specifically for activists can be very helpful, because there is just so much more traffic happening, that it's easier to blend in. Margaret 48:18 I mean, that's one reason why I mean, years ago, people were saying that's why non activists should use GPG, the encrypted email service that is terrible, was so attempt to try and be like, if you only ever use it, for the stuff you don't want to be known, then it like flags it as "This stuff you don't want to be known." And so that was like, kind of an argument for my early adoption Signal, because I don't break laws was, you know, just be like," Oh, here's more people using Signal," it's more regularized, and, you know, my my family talks on Signal and like, it helps that like, you know, there's a lot of different very normal legal professions that someone might have that are require encrypted communication. Yeah, no book, like accountants, lawyers. But go ahead. Elle 49:06 No, no, I was gonna say that, like, it's, it's very common in my field of work for people to prefer to use Signal to communicate, especially if there is, you know, a diversity of phone operating systems in the mix. Margaret 49:21 Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, it's actually now it's more convenient. You know, when I when I'm on my like, family's SMS loop, it's like, I constantly get messages to say, like, "Brother liked such and such comment," and then it's like, three texts of that comment and...anyway, but okay, one of the things that you're talking about, "Security as a feeling," right? That actually gets to something that's like, there is a value in like, like, part of the reason to carry a knife is to feel better. Like, and so part of like, like anti-anxiety, like anxiety is my biggest threat most most days, personally. Right? Elle 50:00 Have you ever considered a career in the security field, because I, my, my, my former manager, like the person who hired me into the role that I'm in right now was like, "What made you get into security?" when I was interviewing, and I was just like, "Well, I had all this anxiety lying around. And I figured, you know, since nobody will give me a job that I can afford to sustain myself on without a degree, in any other field, I may as well take all this anxiety and like, sell it as a service." Margaret 50:33 Yeah, I started a prepper podcast. It's what you're listening to right now. Everyone who's listening. Yeah, exactly. Well, there's a value in that. But then, but you're talking about the Panopticon stuff, and the like, maybe being in too crowded of an environment. And it's, and this gets into something where everyone is really going to have to answer it differently. There's a couple of layers to this, but like, the reason that I just like, my profile picture on twitter is my face. I use my name, right? Elle 51:03 Same. Margaret 51:04 And, yeah, and I, and I just don't sweat it, because I'm like, "Look, I've been at this long enough that they know who I am. And it's just fine. It's just is." One day, it won't be fine. And then we have other problems. Right? Elle 51:18 Right. Margaret 51:19 And, and, and I'm not saying that everyone as they get better security practice will suddenly start being public like it... You know, it, it really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Like, a lot of the reasons to not be public on social media is just because it's a fucking pain in the ass. Like, socially, you know? Elle 51:36 Yeah. Margaret 51:36 But I don't know, I just wonder if you have any thoughts about just like, the degree to which sometimes it's like, "Oh, well, I just, I carry a phone to an action because I know, I'm not up to anything." But then you get into this, like, then you're non-normalizing... don't know, it gets complicated. And I'm curious about your thoughts on that kind of stuff. Elle 51:56 So like, for me, for me personally, I am very public about who I am. What I'm about, like, what my politics are. I'm extremely open about it. Partially, because I don't think that, like I think that there is value in de-stigmatizing anarchism. Margaret 52:20 Yes. Elle 52:20 I think there is value in being someone who is just a normal fucking human being. And also anarchist. Margaret 52:29 Yeah. Elle 52:30 And I think that, you know, I...not even I think. I know, I know that, through being exactly myself and being open about who I am, and not being super worried about the labels that other people apply to themselves. And instead, kind of talking about, talking about anarchism, both from a place of how it overlaps with Judaism, because it does in a lot of really interesting ways, but also just how it informs my decision making processes. I've been able to expose people who would not necessarily have had any, like, concept of anarchism, or the power dynamics that we're interested in equalizing to people who just wouldn't have wouldn't have even thought about it, or would have thought that anarchists are like this big, scary, whatever. And, like, there, there are obviously a multitude of tendencies within anarchism, and no anarchist speaks for anybody but themselves, because that's how it works. But, it's one of the things that's been really interesting to me is that in the security field, one of the new buzzwords is Zero Trust. And the idea is that you don't want to give any piece of technology kind of the sole ability to to be the linchpin in your security, right? So you want to build redundancy, you want to make sure that no single thing is charged with being the gatekeeper for all of your security. And I think that that concept actually also applies to power. And so I...when I'm trying to talk about anarchism in a context where it makes sense to security people, I sometimes talk about it as like a Zero Trust mechanism for organizing a society. Margaret 54:21 Yeah. Elle 54:21 Where you just you...No person is trustworthy enough to hold power over another person. And, so like, I'm really open about it, but the flip side of that is that, you know, I also am a fucking anarchist, and I go to demonstrations, and sometimes I get arrested or whatever. And so I'm not super worried about the government knowing who I am because they know exactly who I am. But I don't share things like my place of work on the internet because I've gotten death threats from white nationalists. And I don't super want white nationalists like sending death threats into my place of work because It's really annoying to deal with. Margaret 55:02 Yeah. Elle 55:03 And so you know, there's...it really comes down to how you think about compartmentalizing information. And which pieces of yourself you want public and private and and how, how you kind of maintain consistency in those things. Margaret 55:21 Yeah. Elle 55:22 Like people will use the same...people will like be out and anarchists on Twitter, but use the same Twitter handle as their LinkedIn URL where they're talking about their job and have their legal name. And it's just like, "Buddy, what are you doing?" Margaret 55:37 Yeah. Elle 55:38 So you do have to think about how pieces of data can be correlated and tied back to you. And what story it is that you're you're presenting, and it is hard and you are going to fuck it up. Like people people are going to fuck it up. Compartmentalization is super hard. Maintaining operational security is extremely hard. But it is so worth thinking about. And even if you do fuck it up, you know, that doesn't mean that it's the end of the world, it might mean that you have to take some extra steps to mitigate that risk elsewhere. Margaret 56:11 The reason I like this whole framework that you're building is that I tend to operate under this conception that clandestinity is a trap. I don't want to I don't want to speak this....I say it as if it's a true statement across all and it's not it. I'm sure there's absolute reasons in different places at different times. But in general, when I look at like social movements, they, once they move to "Now we're just clandestine." That's when everyone dies. And, again, not universally, Elle 56:40 Yeah, but I mean, okay, so this is where I'm gonna get like really off the wall. Right? Margaret 56:46 All right. We're an hour in. It's the perfect time. Elle 56:50 I know, right? People may or may not know who Allen Dulles is. But Allen Margaret 56:54 Not unless they named an airport after him. Elle 56:56 They Did. Margaret 56:57 Oh, then i do who he is. Elle 56:59 Allen Dulles is one of the people who founded the CIA. And he released this pamphlet called "73 Points On Spycraft." And it's a really short read. It's really interesting, I guess. But the primary point is that if you are actually trying to be clandestine, and be successful about it, you want to be as mundane as possible. Margaret 57:22 Yep. Elle 57:23 And in our modern world with the Panopticon being what it is, the easiest way to be clandestine, is actually to be super open. So that if you are trying to hide something, if there is something that you do want to keep secret, there's enough information out there about you, that you're not super worth digging into. Margaret 57:46 Oh, yeah. Cuz they think they already know you. Elle 57:48 Exactly. So if, if that is what your threat model is, then the best way to go about keeping a secret is to flood as many other things out there as possible. So that it's just it's hard to find anything, but whatever it is that you're flooding. Margaret 58:04 Oh, it's like I used to, to get people off my back about my dead name, I would like tell one person in a scene, a fake dead name, and be like, "But you can't tell anyone." Elle 58:15 Right. Margaret 58:16 And then everyone would stop asking about my dead name, because they all thought they knew it, because that person immediately told everyone, Elle 58:22 Right. Margaret 58:23 Yeah. Elle 58:24 It's, it's going back to that same using the noise to hide your signal concept, that it...the same, the same kind of concepts and themes kind of play out over and over and over again. And all security really is is finding ways to do harm reduction for yourself, finding ways to minimize the risk that you're undertaking just enough that that you can operate in whatever it is that you're trying to do. Margaret 58:53 No, I sometimes I like, ask questions. And then I am like, Okay, well don't have an immediate follow up, because I just need to like, think about it. Instead of being like, "I know immediately what to say about that." But okay, so, but with clandestinity in general in this this concept...I also think that this is true on a kind of movement level in a way that I I worry about sometimes not necessarily....Hmm, what am I trying to say? Because I also really hate telling people what to do. It's like kind of my thing I don't like telling people what to do. But there's a certain level... Elle 59:25 Really? Margaret 59:25 Yeah, you'd be shocked to know, Elle 59:27 You? Don't like telling people what to do? Margaret 59:31 Besides telling people not to tell me what to do. That's one of my favorite things to tell people. But, there's a certain amount of. Margaret 59:38 Oh, that's true, like different conceptions of freedom. Elle 59:38 But that's not telling people what to do, that's telling people what not to do. Elle 59:44 It's actually setting a boundary as opposed to dictating a behavior. Margaret 59:48 But I've been in enough relationships where I've learned that setting boundaries is the same as telling people to do. This is a funny joke. Elle 59:55 Ohh co-dependency. Margaret 59:58 But all right, there's a quote from a guy whose name I totally space who was an old revolutionist, who wasn't very good at his job. And his quote was, "Those who make half a revolution dig their own graves." And I think he like, I think it proved true for him. If I remember correctly, I think he died in jail after kind of making half a revolution with some friends. I think he got like arrested for pamphleteering or something, Elle 1:00:20 Jesus. Margaret 1:00:21 It was a couple hundred years ago. And but there's this but then if you look forward in history that like revolutionists, who survive are the ones who win. Sometimes, sometimes the revolutionists win, and then their comrades turn on them and murder them. But, I think overall, the survival rate of a revolution is better when you win is my theory. And and so there's this this concept where there's a tension, and I don't have an answer to it. And I want people to actually think about it instead of assuming, where the difference between videotaping a cop car on fire and not is more complicated than people want you to know. Because, if you want there to be more cop cars on fire, which I do not unless we're in Czarist Russia, in which case, you're in an autocracy, and it's okay to set the cop cars on fire, but I'm clearly not talking about that, or the modern world. But, you're gonna have to film it on your cell phone in order for people to fucking know that it's happening. Sure. And and that works absolutely against your best interest. Like, on an individual level, and even a your friends' level. Elle 1:01:25 So like, here's the thing, being in proximity to a burning cop car is not in and of itself a crime. Margaret 1:01:33 Right. Elle 1:01:34 So there's, there's nothing wrong with filming a cop car on fire. Margaret 1:01:41 But there's that video... Margaret 1:01:41 Right. Elle 1:01:41 There is something wrong with filming someone setting a cop car on fire. And there's something extremely wrong with taking a selfie while setting a cop car on fire. And don't do that, because you shouldn't do crime. Obviously, right? Elle 1:01:42 But there's Layers there...No, go ahead. Margaret 1:02:03 Okay, well, there's the video that came out of Russia recently, where someone filmed themselves throwing Molotovs at a recruitment center. And one of the first comments I see is like, "Wow, this person has terrible OpSec." And that's true, right? Like this person is not looking at how to maximize their lack of chance of going to jail, which is probably the way to maximize that in non Czarist Russia... re-Czarist Russia, is to not throw anything burning at buildings. That's the way to not go to jail. Elle 1:02:35 Right. Margaret 1:02:35 And then if you want to throw the thing at the... and if all you care about is setting this object on fire, then don't film yourself. Elle 1:02:41 Right. Margaret 1:02:41 But if you want more people to know that this is a thing that some people believe is a worthwhile thing to do, you might need to film yourself doing it now that person well didn't speak. Elle 1:02:53 Well no. Margaret 1:02:56 Okay. Elle 1:02:56 You may not need to film yourself doing it. Right? Because what what you can do is if, for example, for some reason, you are going to set something on fire. Margaret 1:03:09 Right, in Russia. Elle 1:03:09 Perhaps what you might want to do is first get the thing to be in a state where it is on fire, and then begin filming the thing once it is in a burning state. Margaret 1:03:25 Conflaguration. Yeah. Elle 1:03:25 Right? And that can that can do a few things, including A) you're not inherently self incriminating. And, you know, if if there are enough people around to provide some form of cover, like for example, if there are 1000s of other people's cell phones also in proximity, it might even create some degree of plausible deniability for you because what fucking dipshit films themself doing crimes. So it's, you know, there's, there's, there's some timing things, right. And the idea is to get it...if you are a person who believes that cop cars look best on fire... Margaret 1:04:10 Buy a cop car, and then you set it on fire. And then you film it. Elle 1:04:15 I mean, you know, you know, you just you opportunistically film whenever a cop car happens to be on fire in your proximity. Margaret 1:04:23 Oh, yeah. Which might have been set on fire by the person who owned it. There's no reason to know one way or not. Elle 1:04:27 Maybe the police set the cop car on fire you know? You never know. There's no way to there....You don't have to you don't have to speculate about how the cop car came to be on fire. You can just film a burning cop car. And so the you know, I think that the line to walk there is just making sure there's no humans in your footage of things that you consider to be art. Margaret 1:04:29 Yeah. No, it it makes sense. And I guess it's like because people very, very validly have been very critical about the ways that media or people who are independently media or whatever, like people filming shit like this, right? But But I think then to say that like, therefore no, no cop cars that are on fire should ever be filmed versus the position you're presenting, which is only cop cars that are already on fire might deserve to be filmed, which is the kind of the long standing like film the broken window, not the window breaker and things like that. But... Elle 1:05:29 I think and I think also there's, you know, there's a distinction to be made between filming yourself setting a cop car on fire, and filming someone else setting a cop car on fire, because there's a consent elemenet, right? Margaret 1:05:34 Totally. Totally. Elle 1:05:47 You shouldn't like...Don't do crime. Nobody should do crime. But if you are going to do crime, do it on purpose. Right? Margaret 1:05:55 Fair enough. Elle 1:05:55 Like that's, that's what civil disobedience is. Civil disobedience is doing crime for the purpose of getting caught to make a point. That's what it is. And if you if you really feel that strongly about doing a crime to make a point, and you want everyone to know that you're doing a crime to make a point, then that's, that's a risk calculation that you yourself need to make for yourself. But you can't make that calculation for anybody else. Margaret 1:06:25 I think that's a great way to sum it up. Elle 1:06:27 So unless your friend is like, "Yo, I'm gonna set this cop car on fire. Like, get the camera ready, hold my beer." You probably shouldn't be filming them. Margaret 1:06:38 See you in 30 years. Elle 1:06:39 Right? You probably shouldn't be filming them setting the cop car on fire either. Margaret 1:06:43 No. No Elle 1:06:44 And also, that's a shitty friend because they've just implicated you in conspiracy, right? Margaret 1:06:49 Yeah. Elle 1:06:50 Friends don't implicate friends. Margaret 1:06:53 It's a good, it's a good rule. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, I that's not entirely where I immediately expected to go with Threat Modeling. But I feel like we've covered an awful lot. Is there something? Is there something...Do you have any, like final thoughts about Threat Modeling, and as relates to the stuff that we've been talking about? Elle 1:07:18 I think that you know, the thing that I do really want to drive home. And that honestly does come back to your point about clandestinity being a trap is that, again, the purpose of threat modeling is to first understand, you know, what risks you're trying to protect against, and then figure out how to do what you're accomplishing in a way that minimizes risk. But the important piece is still doing whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish, whether that's movement building, or something else. And so there there is, there is a calculation that needs to be made in terms of what level of risk is acceptable to you. But if if, ultimately, your risk threshold is preventing you from accomplishing whatever you're trying to accomplish, then it's time to take a step back, recalculate and figure out whether or not you actually want to accomplish the thing, and what level of risk is worth taking. Because I think that, you know, again, if if you're, if your security mechanisms are preventing you from doing the thing that you're you set out to try to do, then your adversaries are already winning, and something probably needs to shift. Margaret 1:08:39 I really like that line. And so I feel like that's a decent spot, place to end on. Do. Do you have anything that you'd like to shout out? People can follow you on the internet? Or they shouldn't follow you on the internet? What? What do you what do you want to advocate for here? Elle 1:08:53 If you follow me on the internet, I'm so sorry. That's really all I can say. I'm, I am on the internet. I am a tire fire. I'm probably fairly easy to find based on my name, my pronouns and the things that I've said here today, and I can't recommend following my Twitter. Margaret 1:09:17 I won't put in the show notes then. Elle 1:09:19 I mean, you're welcome to but I can't advocate in good conscience for anyone to pay attention to anything that I have to say. Margaret 1:09:27 Okay, so go back and don't listen to the last hour everyone. Elle 1:09:31 I mean, I'm not going to tell you what to do. Margaret 1:09:34 I am that's my favorite thing to do. Elle 1:09:36 I mean, you know, this is just like my opinion, you know? There are no leaders. We're all the leaders. I don't know. Do do do what you think is right. Margaret 1:09:55 Agreed. All right. Well, thank you so much. Elle 1:09:59 Thank you. I really appreciate it. Margaret 1:10:07 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, you should tell people about it by whatever means occurs to you to tell people about it, which might be the internet, it might even be in person, it might be by taking a walk, leaving your cell phones behind, and then getting in deep into the woods and saying," I like the following podcast." And then the other person will be like, "Really, I thought we were gonna make out or maybe do some crimes." But, instead you have told them about the podcast. And I'm recording this at the same time as I record the intro, and now the
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