Podcasts about koranic

On this episode of World Book Club Harriett Gilbert talks with nobel Laureate Abdulrzak Gurnah about his hauntingly beautiful novel ‘Paradise' It tells the story of Yusuf, a 12 year-old boy living in East Africa at the beginning of the 20th century. Sold off to settle his father's debts, Yusaf embarks on a journey across the African continent. Through his naive and innocent eyes, the journey starts out as an adventure, but every wonderous thing Yusuf sees, every glimpse of paradise, is polluted by violence, the growing influence of colonialism, and the looming spectre of the First World War. This is a stunning novel - a multi-faceted, vivid exploration of the shifting culture of Africa at the turn of the century. It's layered with mythology, Biblical and Koranic symbolism, and an unflinching insight into the effects of colonialism. Abdulrazak will be answering our listeners' questions here on World Book Club.

Twenty years after the devastating tsunami that hit the Indonesian island of Sumatra, the province of Aceh has returned to peace after a civil war and is now living under Koranic law. Our correspondent reports.

Send Superchats at any time here: https://streamlabs.com/jaydyer/tip Get started with Bitcoin here: https://www.swanbitcoin.com/jaydyer/ The New Philosophy Course is here: https://marketplace.autonomyagora.com/philosophy101 Set up recurring Choq subscription with the discount code JAY44LIFE for 44% off now https://choq.com Lore coffee is here: https://www.patristicfaith.com/coffee/ Orders for the Red Book are here: https://jaysanalysis.com/product/the-red-book-essays-on-theology-philosophy-new-jay-dyer-book/ Subscribe to my site here: https://jaysanalysis.com/membership-account/membership-levels/ Follow me on R0kfin here: https://rokfin.com/jaydyerBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/jay-sanalysis--1423846/support.

01:00 Every major religion regards masturbation as a sin 02:40 The Last Utopia: Human Rights in History, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqtFJZB27M8 06:00 What's wrong with human rights? https://www.theamericanconservative.com/whats-wrong-with-human-rights/ 14:00 Christopher Caldwell: Against Human Rights, https://thelampmagazine.com/issues/issue-21/against-human-rights 18:00 Christopher Caldwell: The E.U. Is Revealing Its True Identity. Europeans Don't Like It., https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/23/opinion/european-union-elections-nationalism.html 38:00 The Ethics of Violence: Recent Literature on the Creation of the Contemporary Regime of Law and War, https://lukeford.net/blog/?p=155758 44:00 Mike joins the show for the first time 54:00 You can't discriminate in hiring because of religion, https://www.commerce.gov/cr/reports-and-resources/discrimination-quick-facts/religious-discrimination 1:20:00 Griggs v. Duke Power Co., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co. 1:33:00 Sam joins from Haifa 1:38:00 Sam was driving a cab in NY on 9-11 1:46:00 Hezbollah's threat to Haifa 2:13:10 Was revulsion to the Holocaust the origin of Human Rights?, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGumg1zCfno 2:22:20 Claire Khaw joins 2:33:00 Does Claire get the Koranic kick? 2:34:00 Where do human rights come from? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFGu6T1Qe48

Our Marrakech walking tour continues in today's episode, as Azdean and local guide Youssef explore the historic Medina, visit the Ben Youssef Madrasa and conclude with a visit to the famous Majorelle Garden.In Part One, we made three stops, focusing around three sights on the south side of the Medina, or city centre: the Mellah (Jewish Quarter), the El Badi Palace, a stunning ruin that was once full of jewels, art and precious stones, and the Bahia Palace, which is still standing, and is one of the absolute must-sees of Marrakech.  Click here to find Part One of the audio tour!In Part Two, Youssef explains to us how medinas are organized, including their six essential components. He delves into the significance of Koranic schools, and describes the still-active public fountain and communal oven. Then, the winding path leads us to the lush embrace of the Majorelle Garden, which so many of our listeners and clients are keen to visit. It is truly an oasis amongst the hustle and energy of Marrakech. Youssef tells us who founded the gardens, the connection to Yves St-Laurent (who was not the founder but whose name is often attached to it), some tips for photography and the best visiting times. Did you know that the medina in Marrakech is one of the oldest inhabited cities in the country, dating back to the 11th Century, and was built to cater to the caravan trade, coming in across the mountains from the Sahara Desert? Imagine the mix of cultures, languages, food and goods that was all happening right here. And it still does, just in a more modern way! You can follow in the footsteps of ancient traders and contemporary tourists by booking a tour with Destination Morocco. Make sure you tell us which of Marrakech's highlights you don't want to miss, and we will add it to your custom-built itinerary. Simply visit our website, destinationsmorocco.com, and you'll see the big button at the top: "Let's Plan Your Trip."Come along with us, let's uncover the mysteries of Morocco together! Do you dream of exploring the enchanting land of Morocco?Destination Morocco is your ultimate travel experience for those seeking luxury and adventure. We specialize in crafting bespoke itineraries tailored to your unique tastes and desires.If you're a discerning traveler who values an immersive, curated adventure, visit www.destinationsmorocco.com, and let us bring your dream Moroccan vacation to life.Learn more about Azdean and Destination Morocco.Download the stunning Destination Morocco magazine!Follow the podcast and help us grow.

German Description (English below)Gast: Nadja GermannIn diesem Podcast versuchen wir einen Einstieg in die große Geisteswelt des islamischen Denkens und dessen Weisheitstraditionen zu finden. Fernab von Behauptungen abgeschlossener kultureller Identitäten ist "die" europäische Kultur ohne den vielfältigen islamischen Einfluss gar nicht denkbar. D.h. sie würde in der heutigen Form nicht existieren. Ohne die Übersetzungsleistungen islamischer Denker, deren Kommentare und Deutungen wäre eine europäische Auseinandersetzung mit der griechischen Antike nicht möglich gewesen. Zum Glück durfte unsere Interviewerin Anna Morawietz mit  Nadja Germann, Professorin für arabische Philosophie in Freiburg, über die Vielfalt der islamischen bzw. arabischen Weisheitstraditionen sprechen. Der Koran steht natürlich im Zentrum dieser Traditionen. Dass islamische Philosophie sich auf Koranexegese reduzieren lässt, wäre allerdings eine sinnlose Verkürzung.Ähnlich dem Buddhismus finden sich in bestimmten Schulen des islamischen Denkens Meditationsformen, die helfen sollen das Bewusstsein zu schulen und so das Leben zu letztlich zu einem besseren zu machen. Daneben existieren Denker, welche die wichtigsten Formen des Wissen und der Weisheit im sozialen Austausch, im Miteinander sehen. Das deutsche und das englische Transkript finden Sie auf unserer Homepage: www.metis.ethz.ch. Dort stellen wir auch weiteres Material zum Thema zur Verfügung. Folgen Sie unseren Social-Media-Kanälen auf Mastodon, Twitter und Instagram!Schreiben Sie uns eine Mail mit Fragen und Kommentaren an: metis@phil.gess.ethz.ch Dieser Podcast wurde produziert von Martin Münnich mit Unterstützung der ETH Zürich und der Udo-Keller-Stiftung, Forum Humanum in Hamburg.English DescriptionGuest: Nadja GermannIn this podcast we try to find an entry into the great intellectual world of Islamic thought and its wisdom traditions. Far away from claims of closed cultural identities, "the" European culture is not even conceivable without the manifold Islamic influence. I.e. it would not exist in its present form. Without the translation services of Islamic thinkers, their commentaries and interpretations, a European confrontation with Greek antiquity would not have been possible. Fortunately, our interviewer Anna Morawietz was allowed to speak with Nadja Germann, professor of Arabic philosophy in Freiburg, about the diversity of Islamic or Arabic wisdom traditions. The Koran is, of course, at the center of these traditions. That Islamic philosophy can be reduced to Koranic exegesis, however, would be a senseless reduction.Similar to Buddhism, certain schools of Islamic thought include forms of meditation that are intended to help train consciousness and thus ultimately make life a better one. In addition, there are thinkers who see the most important forms of knowledge and wisdom in social exchange, in togetherness.You can find the German and the English transcript on our homepage: www.metis.ethz.ch. There we also provide further material on the topic. Follow our social media channels on Mastodon, Twitter and Instagram!Send us an email with questions and comments to: metis@phil.gess.ethz.ch. This podcast was produced by Martin Münnich with the support of ETH Zurich and the Udo Keller Foundation, Forum Humanum in Hamburg.

What do you know about the United Arab Emirates? Want to know more of Israel's newest and perhaps most important partner in peace? I've just returned from my first ever trip to an Arab nation. I went to the capital, Abu Dhabi, to the Global Media Congress, a highly impressive showcase of regional media - with exhibitors from further afield including the Philippines, Russia, Azerbaijan - and Israel. It's a place where East meets West. My guest today is typical of the spirit of big heartedness. His name is Loay Alshareef and he gave me a very personal guided tour of the Sheikh Zayed Grand Mosque, in which we talked about the differences between Islam, Judaism and Christianity - but more importantly their parallels, what binds us as people of faith - in a world where secularity can sometimes get ahead of itself. The majesty and craftsmanship of this 21st-century wonder is breathtaking, The extravagant chandeliers in each room, the beautifully etched windows including the 99 Koranic words for G-d. The UAE is a nation state insistent on pursuing peace in the world - even with partners who they may still have fundamental, outstanding differences with. It has a defined national story, a founder and a magnificent foundation stone in the form of the Grand Mosque. It's all very contemporary. Very 21st century and UAE nationhood is wrapped up in Islam, an Islam of tolerance and engagement and peace. Why? Because they're a nation in a hurry to build and create, to diversify from 20th Century oil to new digital and climate economies. They need the best talent from around the world to help them do it - now! So Just 12% of the country is Emirati. The remaining 88% is made up of foreigners. Like London, 200 languages are spoken among its people. Loay is outward looking and educated internationally - he is a student of languages, an alumnus of Penn State University, he's a computer engineer by qualification, loves nothing more than assembling them! LISTEN to a fascinating trip around the Global Media Congress in conversation with Loay Alshareef. This episode of Jonny Gould's Jewish State is brought to you with Strategico, the full service digital marketing agency for your growth focused business.

Silvio Micali, a professor of Islamic thought at MIT and an expert on Koranic calligraphy and manuscripts, sits down with Lexman to discuss the intricacies of kufic script. They explore the coacervations and recusant stylistic features found in many older manuscripts, and discuss what makes a lekythos special.

One of the contributions I have made to the study of the ideology of Islam is by using simple statistics. Using simple statistics is like using an x-ray machine to examine the body. Obscure facts are suddenly made clear. One of the discoveries I made was the principal of dualism. For centuries people have noticed conflicts in the Koran, which leads to the question: which Koranic verse is true? Statistical analysis shows that the correct answer is both are true. How can that be? Here's my explanation. I hope you enjoy listening to this interview.

Another of our short book-quiz episodes. Here we give the answer to a question about an island that was part of a Sultanate spanning Oman and East Africa, and that features in our last two episodes. And we ask about a Koranic and Biblical story that is a reference for Abdulrazak Gurnah's Paradise. Send your best guesses to bulaq@sowt.com. The first listener to respond with the right answer will get a book in the mail! 

Fès: The original. Where everything started. The first imperial capital, the roots of Moroccan culture, famous for its mixing of religious and cultural heritage. The capital city of Moroccan crafts, from carvings and jewellery to tanneries, and a former political capital as one of the four Imperial cities of Moroccan royalty.Our episode today features a modern trailblazer, one of the first women to become a certified tour guide in Morocco, Fatima Zahra. Growing up inspired by travellers from around the world coming to visit her city, Zahra now takes guests through the medina, the souks, madrassas and Jewish heritage sites of her native Fès.Azdean and Zahra chat about her experience becoming a guide in a male-dominated field, an introduction to the history and unique identity of Fès, and her suggestions for things to do whether you have only a couple days, or ideally many more, to truly appreciate this distinct and special city. You're about to learn:The three principal tourist areas of Fès:- Fès el Bali (the old city).- Fès el Jdid (the new city) and the neighbouring Jewish Quarter.- La Ville nouvelle (the modern city).Why the houses may seem plain on the outside, but are so beautiful on the inside.Fès' Jewish heritage, and how Berber, Jewish and Arab cuisines mixed together.Some of the local delicacies, particularly cooked salads and Moroccan pastilla.The traditional black ovens used to cook bread and filo pastries.The importance of madrassas (Koranic schools), and how you can visit them.For more show notes, including Azdean's recommendations of souks, madrassas and museums to visit when you're in Fès, go to the episode page:https://www.destinationmoroccopodcast.com/fes-the-roots-of-moroccan-culture-ep-8/Now is the time to visit, and Destination Morocco is in fact offering a special Jewish-themed guided tour, July 17-26, incorporating Jewish heritage highlights, in addition to regular popular sights. All the details and a special rate for podcast listeners can be found here: https://bit.ly/3wKYBEsThis Episode is sponsored by:Travel Anywhere - One stop for all your travel needs.https://www.travelanywhere.travel/Resources Mentioned in this episode:Fès, MoroccoZahra on Instagramhttps://www.handsofmorocco-tours.com - Zahra's great websiteFès tanneriesMoroccan craftsmanship, in many forms!Somewhere inside Moroccan souksMellah (Jewish Quarter) of FèsFollow, Share and Participate:Learn more about the show on our Podcast WebsiteFind beautiful pictures on our Instagram!Help people find us: Leave a Review in Apple PodcastsHelp us grow: Rate us on SpotifyBecome a Guest on the Show!Visit Destination

I have written a few articles on Shiva Linga in Mecca OM is 786, Muslims Worship Shiv Lingam At Mecca Masjid Al Haraam Says Islamic Site, Prophets Uncle wrote Siva Sthuthi, A Prayer On Lord Shiva, Sapthapathi of the Marriage ceremony of the Hindus and Navagrahas are found in Arabia, Aravasthan is Arabia. The Prophet, after signing a treaty with tribes the Medina Treaty, stormed Mecca and destroyed 360 Idols housed there. There is Kaaba Stone which is believed to have been of Abrahamic times. People are not permitted to take videos or photographs of the inside of the room. The room seems to contain an Idol, the worship of which is prohibited in Islam. Now let us see what a a surreptitiously taken video and an article in a web site run by Pakistani Defense Think Tank say. Video is below. One can see an Idol resembling Shiv Linga there. And watch the Video, and look at the clock for the time of opening the Room. 5.20 to 5.45! Shivas Pradosha Time! Details at www.ramanidblog.in. titled Shiva Linga In Kaaba Opens At Pradosha Video Pakistani Web Site. The article from Pakistan Defense Thin Tank Site. ‘Arabia is an abbreviation. The original word even today is Arbasthan. It originates in Arvasthan. As observed earlier Sanskrit “V” changes into “B”. Arva in Sanskrit means a horse. Arvasthan signifies a land of horses, and as we all know Arabia is famous for its horses.In the 6th and 7th centuries A.D. a wave of effecting a complete break with the past spread over West Asia. All links with the past were broken, images smashed, scriptures des- troyed, education discontinued and the entire West Asian region took a plunge in abyssmal ignorance which lasted for centuries thereafter and perhaps persists to a certain extent even today because if in the whole world modern scientific and educational developments find stubborn and entrenched resis- tance anywhere it is in the West Asian countries. It is said that the late Saudi Arabia ruler could not permit a radio broadcasting station opened in his own capital because of oposition from his Maulavis. He then resorted to a stratagem. Once while he had his council of Maulavis in attendance he had a radio set switched on to a program of Koranic recitation broadcast from a small transmitting station set up earlier without much ado. The Maulavis were delighted, so goes the report, to hear the word of Allah coming to them as if from nowhere. The king told them that what objections could they have to a mechanism which broadcast the word of Allah. The Maulavis agreed and the small radio broadcasting project was at last ratified.According to Encyclopaedia Britannica and Encyclø- paedia Islamia the Arabs are ignorant of their own history of the pre-Muslim era. By a strange euphemism they call it a period of ignorance and darkness. Probably no other country in the world has deliberately written off a 2,500 year period of their own history by systematically stamping out and snapping all links with the past. They have wiped the memories of pre- Muslim era off their minds. So while they chose to remain ignorant of their past ironically enough it is they who dub the pre-Muslim era as a period of ignorance.Fortunately we can still trace the history of that pre- Islamic Arabia. It is a well known adage that there is no such thing as foolproof destruction of all evidence. The pre-Islamic history of Arabia is the story of Indian Kshatriyas over that land, with the people following the Vedic way of life.In our attempt to reconstruct the story of pre-Islamic Arabia we begin with the name of the country itself. As explained earlier the name is fully Sanskrit. Its central pilgrim centre, Mecca is also a Sanskrit name. Makha in Sanskrit signifies a sacrificial fire. Since Vedic fire worship was prevalent all over West Asia in pre-Islamic days Makha signifies the place which had an important shrine of fire worship.Coinciding with the annual pilgrimage of huge bazaar used to spring up in Makha . --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/ramanispodcast/message

"Ecumenism" In this confusion of ideas (in which some Catholics now seem to be quite at ease), there is a tendency especially dangerous to the Faith, the more so because it masquerades as charity. The word which appeared in 1927 during a congress held at Lausanne, Switzerland, would have put Catholics on their guard if they had consulted their dictionaries. “Ecumenism: a movement toward reunion of all Christian churches in a single church.” Now it is clear that we cannot combine contradictory principles. We cannot unite truth and error so as to form one thing, except by adopting the error and rejecting all or part of the truth. Ecumenism is self-condemnatory.The expression has become so fashionable since the last Council that it has slipped into everyday speech. We speak of universal ecumenism, of exploratory ecumenism and whatever else, to express a taste or a preference for diversity and eclecticism.In religious language ecumenism has recently been extended to non-Christian religions and translated straightway into action. A newspaper in western France gives us a perfect example of the way this evolutionary process works. In a small parish near Cherbourg, the Catholic population showed concern for the welfare of the Muslim workers who had arrived to work on a building site. For this charitable action they can only be praised. In the next stage, however, the Muslims asked for a place to celebrate the fast of Ramadan, and the Christians offered them the basement of their church. Then a Koranic school opened. After a couple of years the Christians invited the Muslims to celebrate Christmas with them “around a common prayer made up of extracts from the Koran and verses from the Gospels.” Misplaced charity had led these Christians to come to terms with error. Read the full book: https://angeluspress.org/products/open-letter-to-confused-catholics

First broadcast in March 2011. Mohammed Bahmanpour defends the Koranic view that although "it was made to appear to them" that he died, in fact Jesus was substituted by another. Jay Smith, Christian evangelist to Muslims, brings to bear Biblical and other historical witnesses to the crucifixion. They debate the issue and whether the Koran or the New Testament is to be trusted as a revelation of God. More Resources: • For exclusive resources and to support us:  USA: http://www.premierinsight.org/unbelievableshow  Rest of the World: https://resources.premier.org.uk/supportunbelievable  • For our regular Newsletter: https://www.premier.org.uk/Unbelievablenewsletter  • For more faith debates: http://www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable  • Facebook https://www.facebook.com/UnbelievableJB  • Twitter https://twitter.com/unbelievablejb  • Insta https://www.instagram.com/justin.brierley 

1. Parts of the body that come in pairs are in the dual form when referring to both; not in the plural (this sometimes happens in spoken Arabic for eyes 3uyuun عيون , or cheeks خدود khuduud, for example) 2. Short vowel declensions are usually only visible in fully-voweled texts such as Koranic verses, or children's books or poetry. Long suffixes, however, always must be written, hence the different dual forms below. 3. The word for fingers(aSaabi3 أصابع ) is used for both fingers and toes. You just need to specify. 4. The word for chin(thaqn ذقن ) is used for beard in some dialects. 5. Like in English, the word for tongue (lisaan لسان ) also means language. Bonus tip: when a dual noun is followed by a noun or a pronoun, the nuun is removed: examples: أجريت العملية في قدمي الولد نظرت الطبيبة في عينيه Enter any of these in your search engine to hear parts of the body in songs: أغنية أيظن نجاة الصغيرة + ترجمة أغنية عيد العشاق لكاظم الساهر + ترجمة أغنية أغدا ألقاك لأم كلثوم + ترجمة أغنية العيون السود + ترجمة More on my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/THOURIABENFERHAT Send a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thouria-benferhat/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thouria-benferhat Visit my website: https://www.thouriabenferhat.com/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thouria-benferhat/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thouria-benferhat/support

1. Parts of the body that come in pairs are in the dual form when referring to both; not in the plural (this sometimes happens in spoken Arabic for eyes 3uyuun عيون , or cheeks خدود khuduud, for example) 2. Short vowel declensions are usually only visible in fully-voweled texts such as Koranic verses, or children's books or poetry. Long suffixes, however, always must be written, hence the different dual forms below. 3. The word for fingers(aSaabi3 أصابع ) is used for both fingers and toes. You just need to specify. 4. The word for chin(thaqn ذقن ) is used for beard in some dialects. 5. Like in English, the word for tongue (lisaan لسان ) also means language. Bonus tip: when a dual noun is followed by a noun or a pronoun, the nuun is removed: examples: أجريت العملية في قدمي الولد نظرت الطبيبة في عينيه Enter any of these in your search engine to hear parts of the body in songs: أغنية أيظن نجاة الصغيرة + ترجمة أغنية عيد العشاق لكاظم الساهر + ترجمة أغنية أغدا ألقاك لأم كلثوم + ترجمة أغنية العيون السود + ترجمة More on my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/THOURIABENFERHAT Send a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thouria-benferhat/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thouria-benferhat Visit my website: https://www.thouriabenferhat.com/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thouria-benferhat/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thouria-benferhat/support

Original youtube video to this debate here.

This week's episode is once again about Islam and Christianity, and the vast contrast between the two on the subject of Scriptural inerrancy. Muslims have long claimed that the New Testament is corrupted and that our Christian revelations are therefore unreliable. This is nonsense and I show exactly why. I then move on to examine the claims that Muslims make about the inerrancy and reliability of their own Koranic scriptures, and I show, based on their own sources and historical evidence uncovered in the last few years, that there is nothing "eternal, revealed, complete, and unchanging" about their Koran. I cite a number of different videos and YouTube channels that you can use to educate yourself on these fascinating subjects. I will provide a full list of supporting materials - insofar as I can collect them all, because the list of such things is enormous - down below. This podcast is now live on Google Podcasts, Apple iTunes, Spotify, and now Pandora as well. So be sure to like, share, comment, and subscribe on your platform of choice! Videos and channels to watch: Dr. Daniel Wallace on how much and how badly the scribes corrupted the New Testament; Dr. Frank Turek with his brilliant "God's Blockchain" argument about the many manuscripts of the New Testament; Dr. Jay Smith explains the huge problems with the qira'ats and the rasm manuscripts that show the complete nonsense of the "inerrancy" claim that Muslims constantly make; Pastor Anthony Rogers debates Dr. Shabir Ally - actually he completely DESTROYED him - on, among other things, the supposed "contradictions" in the New Testament about the Christology of Jesus Christ; Dr. David Wood shows how Sh. Dr. Yasir Qadhi flatly contradicts himself on the issue of Koranic preservation; More videos here, here, here, and here from various Christian apologetics channels showing similar contradictions in Islamic texts and beliefs; Unrelated - in case anyone is interested, here is the video that I referenced right at the beginning about a drug called ivermectin which apparently has exceptional prophylactic properties against the Kung Flu; Put simply, the idea that the Koran was perfectly preserved is arrant nonsense. The challenge to Muslims is straightforward: If you claim that your Koran was perfectly preserved from 634 AD onwards, then SHOW IT TO US. Show us ONE Koranic manuscript, dating back to the time of Uthman - we'll give you Uthman, we won't even make you go to the time of Abu Bakr - that consists of 114 surahs, that is exactly the same in every way as your current Hafs text. If you cannot do this - then stop making this absurd claim. And if you find yourself questioning your faith - come on home. We have exactly what you're looking for. You want a revelation that is eternal, sent down, complete, and unchanged. We Christians have Him. His name is Jesus Christ, King of Kings and LORD. So come on back. Come on home. Come to Jesus Christ.

Glorify the name of God the Most High الاعلى --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/mario-ganoum/support

Sufi Imam Jamal Rahman reveals insights from Rumi, Hafiz and other poets into the ways that Koranic verses can nourish personal, community, racial, economic and environmental healing. According to the Koran, a good life is built “50% of the visible and 50% of the invisible” meaning rooted in the work of the heart and the spirit. This can be supported by building in internal circle of love within oneself and/or an external authentic community centered in care for one another, trust in each other’s inherent vulnerability and common aspirations of truth and patience. Imam Rahman also shares practices to incorporate therapeutic silence, embracing emotions without attachment and having the moral courage to talk about where religion has gone astray. His perspective is deeply informed by his nearly two-decade long partnership in the Interfaith Amigos with Pastor Donald Mckenzie and Rabbi Ted Falcon. Find more about Imam Rahman from JamalRahman.com, InterfaithCommunitySanctuary.com, InterfaithAmigos.com and enjoy 50-60 short videos (2-6 minutes each) about Islam, Sufism, and various meditations on his YouTube channel at Call of Compassion Northwest by searching his name Jamal: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=call+of+compassion+nw+jamal

A hero of the Left has passed away. One of the most famous undead people in the world, the Islamic State (ISIS) caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has been reported dead yet again, and this time it actually appears to be true. The Washington Post headlined its story about the killing as if Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was one of their favored anti-Trump intellectuals, dead at a tragically young age: “Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, austere religious scholar at helm of Islamic State, dies at 48.” Bloomberg wrote that “Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi transformed himself from a little-known teacher of Koranic recitation into the self-proclaimed ruler of an entity that covered swaths of Syria and Iraq.” The respect! The deference! The admiration! Isn't it touching? 

A hero of the Left has passed away. One of the most famous undead people in the world, the Islamic State (ISIS) caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has been reported dead yet again, and this time it actually appears to be true. The Washington Post headlined its story about the killing as if Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was one of their favored anti-Trump intellectuals, dead at a tragically young age: “Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, austere religious scholar at helm of Islamic State, dies at 48.” Bloomberg wrote that “Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi transformed himself from a little-known teacher of Koranic recitation into the self-proclaimed ruler of an entity that covered swaths of Syria and Iraq.” The respect! The deference! The admiration! Isn't it touching? 

“Moderation in times of extremism is a revolutionary idea. It is a positive, courageous value, as opposed to a defeatist attitude. It is swimming against the tide, rather than following the crowd on a path obviously leading to the abyss. We need to create our own vision rather than just copy the vision of others.” -Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi In a time when Islam is increasingly identified by violent extremism and hostility towards Christians and Jews, Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi and his colleagues advocate for an Islam that is true to its Koranic foundations, which call for coexistence and cooperation with other religions. Daoudi took a group of Palestinian students to visit Auschwitz – a courageous assertion against the Holocaust denial rampant in Palestinian society, and an effort toward cultivating empathy. Daoudi paid a harsh price for the peaceful journey: he lost his job at Al Quds University in East Jerusalem as head of the libraries and director of the American Studies Institute, his car was torched, and his life was threatened multiple times. Nevertheless, with his peace-affirming work on behalf of empathy and reconciliation, he – along with others - continues to promote an alternative to the destructive forces of anti-normalization, pro-boycott and violence in the Palestinian community…and beyond. Today I talked to Daoudi about his book, co-edited with Prof. Munther S. Dajani Daoudi, Prof. Martin Leiner, Dr. Zeina M. Barakat, Teaching Empathy and Reconciliation In Midst Of Conflict (Wasatia Press, 2016). Renee Garfinkel is a Jerusalem-based psychologist, writer, and Middle East commentator for the nationally syndicated TV program, The Armstrong Williams Show.. Write her at r.garfinkel@yahoo.com or tweet @embracingwisdom. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/van-leer-institute

“Moderation in times of extremism is a revolutionary idea. It is a positive, courageous value, as opposed to a defeatist attitude. It is swimming against the tide, rather than following the crowd on a path obviously leading to the abyss. We need to create our own vision rather than just copy the vision of others.” -Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi In a time when Islam is increasingly identified by violent extremism and hostility towards Christians and Jews, Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi and his colleagues advocate for an Islam that is true to its Koranic foundations, which call for coexistence and cooperation with other religions. Daoudi took a group of Palestinian students to visit Auschwitz – a courageous assertion against the Holocaust denial rampant in Palestinian society, and an effort toward cultivating empathy. Daoudi paid a harsh price for the peaceful journey: he lost his job at Al Quds University in East Jerusalem as head of the libraries and director of the American Studies Institute, his car was torched, and his life was threatened multiple times. Nevertheless, with his peace-affirming work on behalf of empathy and reconciliation, he – along with others - continues to promote an alternative to the destructive forces of anti-normalization, pro-boycott and violence in the Palestinian community…and beyond. Today I talked to Daoudi about his book, co-edited with Prof. Munther S. Dajani Daoudi, Prof. Martin Leiner, Dr. Zeina M. Barakat, Teaching Empathy and Reconciliation In Midst Of Conflict (Wasatia Press, 2016). Renee Garfinkel is a Jerusalem-based psychologist, writer, and Middle East commentator for the nationally syndicated TV program, The Armstrong Williams Show.. Write her at r.garfinkel@yahoo.com or tweet @embracingwisdom. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Moderation in times of extremism is a revolutionary idea. It is a positive, courageous value, as opposed to a defeatist attitude. It is swimming against the tide, rather than following the crowd on a path obviously leading to the abyss. We need to create our own vision rather than just copy the vision of others.” -Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi In a time when Islam is increasingly identified by violent extremism and hostility towards Christians and Jews, Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi and his colleagues advocate for an Islam that is true to its Koranic foundations, which call for coexistence and cooperation with other religions. Daoudi took a group of Palestinian students to visit Auschwitz – a courageous assertion against the Holocaust denial rampant in Palestinian society, and an effort toward cultivating empathy. Daoudi paid a harsh price for the peaceful journey: he lost his job at Al Quds University in East Jerusalem as head of the libraries and director of the American Studies Institute, his car was torched, and his life was threatened multiple times. Nevertheless, with his peace-affirming work on behalf of empathy and reconciliation, he – along with others - continues to promote an alternative to the destructive forces of anti-normalization, pro-boycott and violence in the Palestinian community…and beyond. Today I talked to Daoudi about his book, co-edited with Prof. Munther S. Dajani Daoudi, Prof. Martin Leiner, Dr. Zeina M. Barakat, Teaching Empathy and Reconciliation In Midst Of Conflict (Wasatia Press, 2016). Renee Garfinkel is a Jerusalem-based psychologist, writer, and Middle East commentator for the nationally syndicated TV program, The Armstrong Williams Show.. Write her at r.garfinkel@yahoo.com or tweet @embracingwisdom. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Moderation in times of extremism is a revolutionary idea. It is a positive, courageous value, as opposed to a defeatist attitude. It is swimming against the tide, rather than following the crowd on a path obviously leading to the abyss. We need to create our own vision rather than just copy the vision of others.” -Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi In a time when Islam is increasingly identified by violent extremism and hostility towards Christians and Jews, Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi and his colleagues advocate for an Islam that is true to its Koranic foundations, which call for coexistence and cooperation with other religions. Daoudi took a group of Palestinian students to visit Auschwitz – a courageous assertion against the Holocaust denial rampant in Palestinian society, and an effort toward cultivating empathy. Daoudi paid a harsh price for the peaceful journey: he lost his job at Al Quds University in East Jerusalem as head of the libraries and director of the American Studies Institute, his car was torched, and his life was threatened multiple times. Nevertheless, with his peace-affirming work on behalf of empathy and reconciliation, he – along with others - continues to promote an alternative to the destructive forces of anti-normalization, pro-boycott and violence in the Palestinian community…and beyond. Today I talked to Daoudi about his book, co-edited with Prof. Munther S. Dajani Daoudi, Prof. Martin Leiner, Dr. Zeina M. Barakat, Teaching Empathy and Reconciliation In Midst Of Conflict (Wasatia Press, 2016). Renee Garfinkel is a Jerusalem-based psychologist, writer, and Middle East commentator for the nationally syndicated TV program, The Armstrong Williams Show.. Write her at r.garfinkel@yahoo.com or tweet @embracingwisdom. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Moderation in times of extremism is a revolutionary idea. It is a positive, courageous value, as opposed to a defeatist attitude. It is swimming against the tide, rather than following the crowd on a path obviously leading to the abyss. We need to create our own vision rather than just copy the vision of others.” -Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi In a time when Islam is increasingly identified by violent extremism and hostility towards Christians and Jews, Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi and his colleagues advocate for an Islam that is true to its Koranic foundations, which call for coexistence and cooperation with other religions. Daoudi took a group of Palestinian students to visit Auschwitz – a courageous assertion against the Holocaust denial rampant in Palestinian society, and an effort toward cultivating empathy. Daoudi paid a harsh price for the peaceful journey: he lost his job at Al Quds University in East Jerusalem as head of the libraries and director of the American Studies Institute, his car was torched, and his life was threatened multiple times. Nevertheless, with his peace-affirming work on behalf of empathy and reconciliation, he – along with others - continues to promote an alternative to the destructive forces of anti-normalization, pro-boycott and violence in the Palestinian community…and beyond. Today I talked to Daoudi about his book, co-edited with Prof. Munther S. Dajani Daoudi, Prof. Martin Leiner, Dr. Zeina M. Barakat, Teaching Empathy and Reconciliation In Midst Of Conflict (Wasatia Press, 2016). Renee Garfinkel is a Jerusalem-based psychologist, writer, and Middle East commentator for the nationally syndicated TV program, The Armstrong Williams Show.. Write her at r.garfinkel@yahoo.com or tweet @embracingwisdom. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Moderation in times of extremism is a revolutionary idea. It is a positive, courageous value, as opposed to a defeatist attitude. It is swimming against the tide, rather than following the crowd on a path obviously leading to the abyss. We need to create our own vision rather than just copy the vision of others.” -Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi In a time when Islam is increasingly identified by violent extremism and hostility towards Christians and Jews, Professor Mohammed Dajani Daoudi and his colleagues advocate for an Islam that is true to its Koranic foundations, which call for coexistence and cooperation with other religions. Daoudi took a group of Palestinian students to visit Auschwitz – a courageous assertion against the Holocaust denial rampant in Palestinian society, and an effort toward cultivating empathy. Daoudi paid a harsh price for the peaceful journey: he lost his job at Al Quds University in East Jerusalem as head of the libraries and director of the American Studies Institute, his car was torched, and his life was threatened multiple times. Nevertheless, with his peace-affirming work on behalf of empathy and reconciliation, he – along with others - continues to promote an alternative to the destructive forces of anti-normalization, pro-boycott and violence in the Palestinian community…and beyond. Today I talked to Daoudi about his book, co-edited with Prof. Munther S. Dajani Daoudi, Prof. Martin Leiner, Dr. Zeina M. Barakat, Teaching Empathy and Reconciliation In Midst Of Conflict (Wasatia Press, 2016). Renee Garfinkel is a Jerusalem-based psychologist, writer, and Middle East commentator for the nationally syndicated TV program, The Armstrong Williams Show.. Write her at r.garfinkel@yahoo.com or tweet @embracingwisdom. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A movement of Iranian women, who are risking their lives for Jesus, is taking Iran by storm. That's according to New York Times bestselling author Joel Richardson, who joins me this week on The Roys Report to tell this remarkable story. Richardson is an internationally recognized expert on Biblical prophecy and Islam and has just finished producing a film depicting this move of God. Learn how to catch the premiere of this livestreaming event. I really hope you can join us for The Roys Report, this Saturday morning at 11 on AM 1160 Hope for Your Life and on Sunday night at 7 on AM 560 The Answer! Show Transcript Note: This transcript has been edited slightly for continuity. Segment 1 JULIE ROYS: Welcome to The Roys Report, brought to you in part by Judson University. I'm Julie Roys. And today, we're going to talk about one of the fastest growing Christian movements in the world. And surprisingly, this movement isn't occurring in the West where there's a lot of religious freedom, or in the Global South, where Christianity is also booming. In fact, there are currently more Christians in the Global South of the world than in the Global North. And the Christian community in Latin America and Africa alone account for one billion people. But this incredible movement that we're going to be discussing today is happening in the Middle East of all places—in the mostly-Islamic country of Iran. That's right, in Iran, a country where the government is engaged in systematic, ongoing, egregious violations of religious freedom, Christianity is booming. In a country where Christians can face imprisonment, torture, and execution, Christians are actively and successfully evangelizing. It's an incredibly inspirational movement. And next Friday, there's a new film telling the story of this amazing movement will debut as a live-streaming event that you and your friends, your church, your small group can watch. In fact, there are about one-thousand different watch parties scheduled for this Friday, August 23rd. And I'll be telling you a lot more about that in the rest of this show. But joining me now is Joel Richardson, a New York Times best-selling author and co-producer of this new movie called, “Sheep Among Wolves.” Joel also is an expert in biblical prophecy and spends a lot of time in the Middle East, ministering among Muslims. So, Joel, welcome! It's a privilege to have you with us! JOEL RICHARDSON:  Julie, thank you so much for having me on. JULIE ROYS: Yeah well, and you're recently back from the Middle East is that correct? JOEL RICHARDSON: Well, yeah, we've made some short-term trips, a few different countries. We did a tour actually to Jordan and Israel earlier this year. I was recently in southeast Asia and I may have forgotten a couple of other places. JULIE ROYS:   I know you're always on the road seems like every time I contact you you're somewhere around the world that sometimes you can't tell me or you can't speak about publicly because you sometimes go into areas that don't really allow Christians. And speaking of which Iran is one of those. And so, I think when we talk about there being a booming Christian movement, the last place we expect it to be is in Iran. But yet, this is where this Christian movement is booming. And I know you've spoken to a lot of the leaders of that movement. So help us understand why on earth, of all places, is a Christian movement spreading throughout Iran. JOEL RICHARDSON:  Well I think in the natural, when people hear that, they're like, “What in the World?” Persecution there is intense. Christianity is restricted. The government is really going to hammer, bring the hammer down, on any Muslims, particularly, that convert to Christianity. But from a biblical perspective, we see that the gospel is to those that are poor in spirit, to those that are downtrodden, to those that are broken. The gospel is for the poor. And so, there's a few realities in Iran that most people are not aware of. The inflation there is astronomical. I mean it's hard to even fathom. Basic food is difficult for a lot of people to afford. Iran has one of the highest drug addiction rates in the world. There's just a tremendous spirit of brokenness on the country. And as a result of that, there's a hunger. There's a hunger for God. It's Job that actually makes the statement; he says, “when someone is in a heap of ruin, they stretch out their hand and they cry out to God.” And I think the Iranian people are a perfect example of that. In their desperation, in their hunger, there's a cry rising up out of Iran. And the Lord is responding. JULIE ROYS:  You know, it reminds me of what happened in China when it became communist. They kicked the western missionaries out. Not to say that western missionaries do need to be in these places. But after they kick the western missionaries out and it became so oppressive the church, the underground church, just exploded. And so it seems like sometimes Christianity does better in these countries where there's so much persecution than it does here in the west where we're very comfortable. And I know this is one of the reasons why you want to tell this story to those of us are in there in United States and the comfortable church, in the place where we have everything so to speak. And yet in some way spiritually we have a poverty that people in Iran don't have.  I mean, what's your hope for the way that this film that you've produced telling the stories is going to open our eyes? JOEL RICHARDSON:  Yeah there are several lessons that we really hope that the Western Church will connect with.  But I think what happens here in the West is we see, particularly in the United States, we see ourselves as not just as the leader of the world, we see ourselves as the heart of the church. And we think—when it comes to these new movements, such as in Iran—we think it's so essential that they learn from us. But the truth is, they have so much that we—not just that we can learn from—that we need to learn from. If we are going to navigate the days ahead, we need to connect with and learn from the church that's living it right now, that's living—and I'm not even going to say, “early church Christianity.”  Because honestly, I think what's happening there today is something in a lot of ways even a step beyond what took place in the early church. There's a purity that is, it's moving. Every time you spend time with the leaders, you can see the fingerprint of God in terms of what He's doing. And so it's easy for us here, at ease in the coastland so to speak, to be comfortable and to not believe that that type of persecution will ever come here. But the reality is, it's just around the corner. Now granted, it's very different. But the hatred, the political polarization, is always, ends up being directed at the church. It always ends up being directed at Christians. And so when we see the manner, when we see the steadfastness with which the Iranian believers are persevering under such incredible, not just persecution, but, I mean, they're being monitored. You know, just the oppression that they live with day-to-day, in every little part of their life. This is something we need to be paying attention to and really preparing ourselves for because it's really not that far away. JULIE ROYS: I think a lot of us are realizing that. And realizing we need to be ready for persecution because it is likely right around the corner. Tell me how this movement, how do you evangelize in a country that is so oppressive. It's fascinating to me how Iranians are doing this because they can't just like open up their Bible and start preaching on the street corner or even inviting people to church or to special events. This has to be done in a pretty covert way. Describe that. JOEL RICHARDSON: Yeah, this is one of the most wonderful things about this movement is that first of all, it is completely illegal, obviously, in Iran, to evangelize, to proselytize Muslims to another faith. And here's what's amazing, is that they're not breaking any laws. The way, the methodology that they're using is very Socratic, which is to say they genuinely believe in the Holy Spirit, and they allow the Holy Spirit to do His work. So, much of the evangelism that they do, they're asking questions. Now they'll invite people to what we'll call, “Discovery Bible Studies.” You know, they'll invite them to hear Bible stories. And they lead them through the Scriptures in a very systematic way from the beginning, you know, from Genesis up throughout the story of redemption. But they're not telling them what to believe. They're not telling them how to respond. They're asking them questions about these stories. You know, “What did you learn about God through this story? What did you learn about yourself?” And then they extend the invitation. They say, “Would you be willing, if this story is true, would you be willing to make changes to your life? And if so, what would those changes be?”  And so it really is a dynamic discipleship movement. They're teaching people how to listen to the Holy Spirit. Often times, and this is probably kind of a controversial statement, but often times before they even come to faith. They're teaching them how to essentially listen to what God is speaking to them through the text—through the stories—and then how to respond. So, by the time they come to faith they already understand the concept of obedience. They already understand the concept of listening to the Holy Spirit. And it's a beautiful thing. It's truly a beautiful thing. Because when you see it—this is what it's done for me, is it's put faith in me that God is active and He's working. Because, you know, this is not, you know, a western manipulative model where you're teaching people how to behave and how to act.  You're actually introducing them to God and He's teaching them how to behave and how to act.  JULIE ROYS: I love that. And I think sometimes in the West we think of conversion, coming to Jesus and lordship as two separate movements of God, you know, in our hearts. That we come to Jesus, we get our sins forgiven and then we go to this other step of lordship. But in Iran it's happening together. I think as I read the New Testament it happens together. We give our life to Christ and we get him lordship all at the same time. Again, I'm speaking with Joel Richardson, New York Times best-selling author and co-producer of the film Sheep Among Wolves—a film telling the remarkable story of what's happening with Christianity in Iran. We have to go to a break. But when we come back, we'll continue our discussion. Segment 2: JULIE ROYS: Well, is the government of Iran losing its grip on its people? Welcome back to The Roys Report. I'm Julie Roys. And according to my guest today, that's precisely what's happening. Though the Iranian government rules with an iron fist and it's trying to wipe out Christianity, the gates of hell are not prevailing. Despite all their best efforts, Christianity is exploding—growing by 20% each year! And this is largely due to the efforts of Christians and particularly Iranian Christian women, who are risking everything for the Gospel. Joining me today is best-selling author and co-producer of a film about this movement, Joel Richardson. And if you'd like to join our discussion, you can do that. The number to call:  312-660-2594. Also, I want to let you know that I am giving away 5 copies of a book by Joel today. The book we're giving away is called The Mystery of Catastrophe, a book that challenges you to see the natural and man-made disasters through the lens of God's sovereignty and End Times prophecy. If you want to be able to recognize what God's doing in the midst of many storms that are gathering, to kind of see the spiritual behind the natural, you're going to want to get this book. To enter the giveaway, to win this copy, just go to JulieRoys.com/giveaway. Again, joining me is Joel Richardson, a New York Times best-selling author, and also the co-producer of a film called “Sheep Among Wolves,” a film telling about this fast-spreading movement in Iran. So, Joel I've teased this a little bit but we haven't really talked about it. But this is a movement largely led by women and, which is, again, ironic because this is a country where women are treated like second-class citizens, often abused and oppressed. But they're at the forefront, correct? JOEL RICHARDSON:  Yeah, this has been a really interesting dynamic. We thought it was important to highlight. You know, similarly in the West, if you look at church attendance, it's going to be a majority are going to be women. But there in Iran, it's a noticeable fact that—most certainly there are men who are part of the movement, and even leading the movement—but there's no question that women are the majority. And it's a stunning contrast as you said, in such a culture and a society that's so dominated by men. JULIE ROYS:  And didn't you say that a lot of these women, when you're doing this film, you had to get them out of the country, obviously to do it, but when you do the recording and so forth. But a lot of them had their stories of abuse in their background—of being raped and molested. Like that's common, right? JOEL RICHARDSON:  Yeah and in fact you know, you can ask me, “why do you think women are taking such a leadership role?” And, you know, the answer actually is pretty clear. When you listen to their stories, probably the most consistent feature is that they were abused, they were molested, they were raped. Often times by, you know, family members, even by their fathers and brothers and uncles. The work is so difficult to get in the country, that often times, to get a job what you have to do is sort of work as an intern, let's say for six months, it's kind of a trial basis. And often times, it's in that trial basis that if you don't allow the boss to rape you and molest you, then you don't get the job. And so you get a lot of just, you know, single mothers and women who need a job and so they say, you know “Why should I go work for free for someone and essentially be a prostitute, when I can just go become a prostitute and actually get paid?” You have this dynamic that it's just, it's epidemic throughout Iran, unfortunately, but to say, “well why are the women taking such a leadership role?” And I think the answer is there. Is that they are the ones that have been delivered from so much. They've been healed from so much that the gratefulness in their heart, the response in all the ways that the Lord's touched them, is that they have a zeal. They have a zeal that's often times unmatched by their male counterparts when they come to faith. And so, they're willing to, they've been delivered from so much, they're willing to give anything to see others' find the same freedom. JULIE ROYS:  I think another aspect to this, or at least I'd like your comment on this, cause I talked to somebody once that said that women are so much easier than men often to evangelize within Islam because Islam doesn't offer them very much. I mean, if you look at the afterlife, for men maybe sounds kind of good, you know, you get how many virgins and you can use them as you please. For women that doesn't sound like really that great of an afterlife. JOEL RICHARDSON: (Laughter) Yeah, and there's a funny point there within textural criticism of the Koran, where some German scholars have suggested that it's actually not “virgins.” That they mis-translated the word, that it's actually 72 “raisins.” JULIE ROYS: (Laughter) JOEL RICHARDSON:  But that's a different story. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah. JOEL RICHARDSON: But, yeah, you know, you've got statements in the Hadith where Mohammed actually said, “I saw the inhabitants of hell and the majority of them were women.” And so you hear statements like that and you say, “Well, wait a minute, you say why? Are women more sinful than men?” And this sort of thing. And, you know, there are dozens of traditions like this. So yes, often times—not always let's be very clear but often times—women are mistreated in Islam. And you have these Islamic apologists that try to talk about how Mohammed was, you know, such a revolutionary. And it's nonsense. He married a 7 year old girl. He had sex with her when she was 9 years old. That was Aisha, his favorite wife. I mean that's pedophilia. This is not a prophet of God. This is not someone to look up to. This is not someone who's going to exalt the status of women. On the other hand, Jesus is someone who was, in many ways, revolutionary, in terms of the treatment of women. And so yes, when women come to faith in Jesus, they do find relationship with the One who does exalt them in so many ways.  JULIE ROYS:  And I'm so glad that you say that honestly and just telling the truth about Islam and what it says because I think we don't get that in the West that often. I mean that is a politically incorrect thing just to tell the truth about who Mohamed was, about how women are treated. It always astounds me that the left, it's supposedly so pro-women, so feminist, doesn't tell the truth about Islam. But I think that's a real reality and I'm glad you talk about that. I want you to talk about, too, about how in Islam and in Iran and the Islamic leaders and those who are perpetrating the faith and supposed to be evangelizing for Islam, the way they're living isn't necessarily matching the talk and it's not resonating with the people, right? JOEL RICHARDSON:  Yeah. Well see, the regime itself, you have to understand, they present themselves as the stewards of the government of Allah, so the government of God. But even more than that, they're the stewards of this invisible messiah figure they call the Mahdi. They say he's going to come back. And he really, he's kind of treated as though he's omniscient and omnipotent. He's guiding and watching all things. And so, they feed the people this narrative. And the reason that they're so afraid of Christianity, is because when people believe in the gospel, they reject this false narrative. And that's the very basis for their power. So, when people come to faith, they lose their stranglehold of power over the people. Now, the country itself is largely like a giant mafia state. And so, the regime is trying to stay in control. The people are all in poverty. They're suffering. However, if you are willing to turn in your neighbors, if you're willing to work for the secret police, then you'll be given a job.  And this is one of the easiest ways to get a legitimate job is to actually become part of the regime. And so, you have many of the religious leaders, you have many people that are part of the government apparatus, who do it simply because, you know, they're traitors to their people but they're desperate for jobs. And so, they're not necessarily very zealous for Islam, they're just selfish people. And so, you know, they're turning on their own people.  Now, there's a story several years ago on Instagram. There was in a town that was called The Rich Kids of Beverly Hills. You know, these are all these kids and their parents. Maserati's and, you know, luxury sports cars, drinking and doing drugs in their bikinis and showing off and this kind of thing. And, typically what you would expect to see out of Hollywood. But then, around the same time, another account opened up and it was called “The Rich Kids of Tehran.” And it looked identical, you know. Kids in sports cars, doing drugs, partying. And someone commented, they said, “but you need to understand. These are, this is not the common people in Iran. These are the children of the religious leaders.” They're incredibly wealthy. They're incredibly rich. They have no interest in Islam. And so this is part of the reason why the people are so resentful of the government, of the regime and of the religious leaders because the whole thing is a complete façade. JULIE ROYS:  Sounds a lot like the tax collectors in Jesus day who were actually traitors to their own people. Actually, taxing their own people for the religious, well, for the government authorities but pretending to be religious leaders. And the religious leaders were part of that whole system. Fascinating discussion. Again, I'm speaking with Joel Richardson, New York Times best-selling author, co-producer of the film, “Sheep Among Wolves.” We have to go to break. When we come back, we'll talk about how you can be a part of these Watch Parties coming up this Friday. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. 3rd  Segment JULIE ROYS:  Welcome back to The Roys Report, brought to you in part by Judson University.  I am Julie Roys.  And today, we're discussing the explosion of Christianity in Iran. Ironically, in this repressive state where Christians are persecuted and killed, the population of Christians is growing 20% every year. That means it's doubling about every four years! And surprisingly, in a state where women are often treated like property and abused, it's women who are leading the charge. It's an incredibly inspirational movement. And it's the focus of a new film called “Sheep Among Wolves” that debuts online in a livestreaming event this Friday. And joining me today is Joel Richardson, a New York Times best-selling author and the co-producer of this film “Sheep Among Wolves.” Also, I want to let you know you can join our discussion today. Our studio line is open. The number to call 312-660-2594. Also, today I'm giving away five copies of a fantastic book by Joel called, The Mystery of Catastrophe—a book that shows how God can use even natural and man-made disasters for His purposes. And how some of these storms and crises we're seeing may be related to End Times prophecy. If you'd like to enter to win, just go to JulieRoys.com/giveaway. So Joel, let's talk a little bit about these watch parties this Friday. I know my small group from church, we're all getting together in our basement, we have a nice big screen TV. We're going to watch this livestreaming event. We're super excited about it. Tell everybody how they can be a part. JOEL RICHARDSON: So, if you go to the website which is SheepAmongWolvesFilm.com there is just a form that you go on there to sign up and put your information in. And yeah, a lot of these watch parties are just small groups. Some of them are churches. You know, there's individuals, of course, many individuals will be watching it. We're actually pushing right now close to 2,000 watch parties. And when you look at the map, it is all over the world. So, it's a tremendous blessing. It's you know, and look, you don't have to watch it Friday night. You can watch it in 2 weeks. We release it into the wild for free. But we're just encouraging people to do it together. You know, on the 23rd, the release date. And there's just kind of this neat sense of unity knowing that you're watching it with the global body of Christ all over the world. JULIE ROYS: I love that. I love that. I mean I get that kind of chills on Sunday morning because we do a liturgy that I know is done all around the world by churches that are in a similar denomination. But this, to be watching what's going on in Iran and having our eyes opened to it at the same time with now 2000—last I heard it was 1000—so you must've gotten a lot of people to sign up just recently even. That's exciting to me. And it's exciting to me that we in the church, in the West, in the first-world are going to be connecting with something that God is doing in and among Christians in Iran. It just reminds me, to me it's just so biblical. It's what scripture says, to be praying for the persecuted church and our persecuted brothers and sisters. And we're doing it together so I'm really, I am super excited about it. And, you know, I just commend you for putting this together. And what I want to do is dig in a little bit on some of the stories that are contained in this film. Because I think they're so inspirational. I know there's one that you told me just enough to tease me about some gal who tried to hang herself and then became a believer. Tell us that story. JOEL RICHARDSON:  Yeah, and this is just such a sweet sister. She had, growing up, she had the typical story of she was abused and molested and raped by multiple men in her life, you know, people that she would trust. Even after she had been violated she would go to someone else and they would promise to take care of her and then they would violate her. And it was just sort of a letdown after letdown after letdown. But eventually, but in the midst of all this, there was just this unrelenting cry to God. She didn't know where to turn. She didn't know where to look. But there was just this intuitive cry to God, knowing that her defender, her deliverer was out there. So, it culminated with her trying to—well she did—she hung herself. She locked herself in this room. And she used, essentially, she used what she described was a thick copper cable. She connected it to the, I think the light in the ceiling. She wrapped it around her neck and kicked the chair out. When she woke up the next day, she woke up on the floor. She had bruising all around her neck. And this was what was amazing: The room that she was in was locked. The room was still locked when she woke up. And she woke up with a very vivid memory—call it a dream or a vision—of Jesus Himself holding her in His arms. And she said for the first time in her life she had the feeling, “This is the God that I've been looking for. This is the God that I've been searching for.” And just this incredible experience of feeling cared for. Finally, in her life a man who actually cared for her.  And she said, and she looked, and the cable—she said it was so thick that, you know, when it was bent—you couldn't, she said the cable was laying perfect, perfectly straight laid down on the floor. She said, you know, “you couldn't have machine-straightened this cable out after it was so bent up.” And she knew, you know, in some miraculous, amazingly strange way, that the Lord had actually taken her down from the noose and revealed himself to her. And she is a passionate, passionate evangelist.  JULIE ROYS:  Wow! What an amazing story. It kind of gives me goosebumps just listening to you right now. I hear so many stories like that of Muslims who become believers—or people from Muslim countries—and I don't know if it's just that God speaks in a more supernatural way there because it's—I mean they don't have the access to scriptures like we do, or to churches like we do. But I wonder if part of it's too that they have a worldview that accounts for the supernatural. Whereas ours is much more naturalistic. Do you hear, are you hearing those same sorts of things? I mean, is it often sort of these miraculous kind of conversions? JOEL RICHARDSON:  Yeah, no absolutely. And we hear it a lot. And to be clear, I also want to be careful. Because it does happen a lot. But by the same token—and we should trumpet these things; they're wonderful—but by the same token, the majority come to faith through old, consistent evangelism.  You know, just normal people sharing the gospel. Being faithful. It's not always 4 dreams and 3 visions and 2 visitations, you know? (laughter) So that's important to qualify. But yeah, you're exactly right, which is to say, the Islamic culture is very open to dreams. They're very open to all of these things. And often times you'll have let's say a woman,a wife, and she is possessed—they'll say by Gin—which we call demons. Gin are essentially an Islamic—it's  where you get the word Genie—but they're kind of these invisible spirits. So, you'll get these women that they believe are oppressed or possessed by Gin. They'll take them to the Imams to be delivered—and these Imams will sometimes charge them $20,000 for a deliverance session. And they'll read some Koranic passages over them. And then they just get worse, and this sort of thing. And so, they have a culture where—you know, I'll call it a witch doctor so to speak—where religious leaders almost serve like a witch doctor role.  JULIE ROYS: Joel, hold on that story. I'll let you finish it when we come back. We gotta go to break. I'm speaking with Joel Richardson. You're listening to The Roys Report We will be right back with the rest of that story after a short break. 4th Segment JULIE ROYS: Well, a movement of Iranian women, who are risking their lives for Jesus, is taking Iran by storm. Welcome back to The Roys Report. I'm Julie Roys. And today we're talking about this amazing movement in Iran where the population of Christians is doubling about every four years. And joining me today is New York Times best-selling author Joel Richardson, who's just co-produced a film about this movement in Iran. This film debuts this Friday in an online livestreaming event. If you want to know more about that, go to SheepAmongWolvesFilm.com. Also, I want to let you know that if you missed any part of today's broadcast, or just want to listen again or share it with friends, it will be available at my website today by 1 o'clock central time in the event you are listening online somewhere else. So just go to JulieRoys.com and click on the podcast tab.  I also want to let you know that next week, we're going to be debating what Christians should think about legalizing marijuana. Joining me will be author Jonathan Merritt, who says marijuana is the only thing that's relieved his chronic pain, and he supports legalization. And challenging his view will be Dr. Richard Poupard, who opposes legalization. This is going to be a great show, probably a pretty lively one. And I'll be taking your calls, as well. So, I truly hope you can join us on Saturday. I will be getting to our phone lines in just a minute. And if you want to ask a question of Joel or make a comment, the number to call, got to call quickly because we're in the last segment the number to call is 312-660-2594.  But Joel before I go to the phones, I want to just give you a chance to finish what you were saying in the last segment about people going to witch doctors in Iran and how this sometimes leads to their conversion. So finish that, tell us more about that.  JOEL RICHARDSON: Well not literally witch doctors but essentially the Imams serve as a kind of witch doctor or dream interpreter in this sort of thing. So essentially all I meant is that the Lord is visiting them supernaturally simply because He's meeting them where they are. He's speaking their language. It reveals the nature of God. He meets people where they are. JULIE ROYS: Fascinating. I love this discussion today and want to go to our phone lines even though the question isn't about Iran per se but I know you do a lot of work in the Middle East and I want to give Dan a chance to get his call. Hey Dan, welcome to The Roys Report. DAN (CALLER): Good morning, I understand that there is also a move of God, the one true God in Pakistan, at least to some degree. I am in contact with someone in Lahore, Pakistan. And I get conflicting information from them. I get photos of church meetings that look fantastic but also requests for money and other things that raise warning flags. And I'm just wondering who can I contact just to have this gentlemen checked out? And if he's legitimate, I would love to see him get a lot of help from the West.  JULIE ROYS:  Okay sounds like two questions, what's happening in Pakistan and let's do that one first. Joel, do you know much about what's happening in Pakistan? I am kind of guessing that you do. JOEL RICHARDSON: Pakistan is a very different situation obviously because you can have churches leading. There's plenty of Christians in Pakistan obviously but you have outbreaks of all kinds of persecution. But you do need to be careful when sending money because there's all kinds of scams there because of the extreme poverty. I don't know who to contact to vet anyone in particular. If there are red flags, they're usually there for a reason. So, I don't really know how to counsel you there. JULIE ROYS: I will give you something I know from doing a lot of investigations. If they have any presence in the United States they have to file 990s, which are tax forms. And they should have those online. And if they don't have it, I would ask for it. And I would ask to see their financial reports and statements. If it looks really confusing to you go to someone who can interpret those for you. But I think Christians have and I am shocked how many Christians give their money and don't look at the finances of the organization they give their money to. That is so critically important. But Joel as we're talking about other places in the Middle East, Israel is a place in the Middle East that actually touches on Iran becaise Iran is probably one of the greatest threats to Israel's existence. Yet the church in Iran is actually very pro-Israel from what I understand, tell us a bit about that. JOEL RICHARDSON:  Yeah, this is one of the most beautiful parts of what is going on in the church in Iran and one of the things we emphasized in the film. Because in the natural, as you said, Iran represents the greatest existential military threat to Israel right now. They are spreading their spidery fingers throughout the Middle East through proxies of Hezbollah, Bashar al Assad, and Houthi rebels in Yemen. They are taking over Iraq and this sort of thing. But behind the scenes—you know, this is the thing we don't often get to see behind the scenes, behind the curtain so to speak—the believers themselves have fallen in love with Israel. I have heard some of the leaders say, “how can we send missionaries to Israel?” And so again, this is the finger of God, this is the fingerprint of God. Because when you are genuinely discipling someone in the scriptures, it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that Israel still remains God's people. They still have an ongoing call and election on them. And unfortunately, in most of the Middle East, even in the churches, there is a lot of residual anti-Semitism. As missionaries we talk about the tragedy that the American church has exported the faith movements all over the world, you know, this prosperity gospel. But one of the problems as well, is that we are exporting often times a bad eschatology, which actually promotes this anti-Israel bias throughout the Middle East. This is what I love about the Iranian movement. There is none of that. It's just the opposite. They actually have God's heart for Israel. JULIE ROYS: And Joel isn't paying me or even asking me to say this, but I want to give a plug for your books because the first one I read was The Islamic Anti-Christ. Opened my eyes to the possibility of the Anti-Christ being Islamic. You make an incredible case for that. But Mideast Beast, Mystery Babylon, these books, there's a reason why they are New York Times Best Sellers. They are full of truth and biblical exegesis and you're a phenomenal writer. And friends if you haven't gotten any of those books, I just encourage you to read them. But given, Joel, your understanding and you're really an expert on end times and eschatology, where does Iran fit into all of that? JOEL RICHARDSON: Well when you look at so many prophecies you're going to get, admittedly, I'll say, conflicting reports in the Bible, you'll see judgments coming upon the enemies of God. But interestingly enough, there's a very positive prophecy in Jeremiah 49, where the Lord says I will place my throne in Elam which is in the southwestern province of Iran. And I actually believe that in that there is a promise. I don't know if it is literal, that Jesus is going to have His winter palace in Iran. But it's as though he is saying He will have a special place, His rule in Iran during the millennial reign of Jesus. I think, you know, based on that hint and as an intercessor and as someone that loves the gospel, I think we should push into that and say, “yes Lord, you're going to have a mighty movement, a people here that will submit to Your rule.” So, we just don't wait for Him to come back and that happens. We push into that now.  JULIE ROYS: Let's talk about us in the West. How should we think about our neighbors who are Muslim? How should we think about the people in Iran that you are ministering among? What should be our heart and our disposition toward them? JOEL RICHARDSON: There was a poll recently done that analyzed bias and prejudice against Muslims and whether people have hatred for Muslims. And what really made me sad was that one of the highest segments that had a hatred of Muslims were Evangelical Christians. In an age of tolerance and all this sort of thing, I think it's good that we have a hatred of Islam. Because Islam is fundamentally opposed to our faith. But that said if anyone should be a people who love Muslims, it should be followers of Jesus. There are a lot of negative things that can be said with regards to Islam. But when it comes to Muslims, they tend to be some of the most god conscious people in the world, a very god conscious culture. And look the Lord is moving among them. And if that's not evidence that He loves them and He has a heart for them, then we are not paying attention. So, we need to check ourselves as conservative Christians. We need to say, “am I someone who has received the grace of God myself, but I am not willing to extend that grace to others?” So, we really need God's heart on this and recognize that look there is a harvest field all around us. They've come to us and it's not about just being opposed to them. It's about sharing the gospel with them.  JULIE ROYS: Amen. And how can we support the Christians in Iran? I mean obviously we can't go there and it's hard to even give money to fund it. I mean, what can we do to stand with our brother and sisters in Iran and support them?  JOEL RICHARDSON:  First of all, it's always going to be prayer. And so, there are different ministries that you can sign up with and get regular prayer updates and testimonies and this sort of thing. And really the best way to knit your heart with anyone is to connect with them through prayer, committing to regularly pray for them. We will have a place at the end of the film, a link to where people if want to donate to a church in Iran – we are essentially channeling that through because we don't want to name ministries and put a target on their backs and this sort of thing. And where your treasure is there your heart will be also. So that's another way to connect your heart with the Church is to actually donate. And there are some opportunities—obviously with security, we need to be very careful—sometimes the leaders are able to visit here in the States. And we have, sort of underground meetings so to speak, closed meetings in churches, and you can connect with them relationally. That's a little bit more difficult. It's going to be primarily, you know, the first thing really, is going to be through prayer.  JULIE ROYS: And how specifically would you encourage us to pray for them? JOEL RICHARDSON: The main prayer that they are constantly asking for is, you know the story of Jesus where he was invisible. He walks through the crowds, you know, they're there. They are right in the heart of Iran. They are all over Iran. They are constantly being monitored. All of the Iranians are being monitored and they just need that supernatural protection, that they would continue their work. And that the Lord would blind the eyes of the enemies so to speak. That they would walk through the crowds and they wouldn't be caught. That's the main issue. They are regular people. Yes they're heroes but they don't look forward to being put into prison. They don't look forward to being tortured. Many of them have families and children just like us and to be quite frank, they have genuine fear. We need to pray for their protection and if something happens that they would have the boldness to stand firm in the midst of it should anything go wrong.  JULIE ROYS: And courage is not the absence of fear. It's the ability to press into that fear to overcome that fear. So we do need to be praying for them. You know Jesus told us in Matthew 16 that he would build his church and nothing, not even the gates of hell, would prevail against that. That's what I think we're seeing in Iran today so encouraging and again thanks so much to Joel Richardson so grateful for you and your ministry. Again, if you missed any part of this program, the entire podcast will be posted to my website JulieRoys.com. Hope you have a great weekend and God bless!   Read more

With this episode, I start a discussion of Rumi and the environment. Citing his lyrics, I point to his reverence for nature as a site of the presence of the Divine. Seeking the Koranic description of God in a green tree, Rumi views our natural habitat as beautiful, lively, and closely connected with us. What we need to do is to discover it as a source of inspiration, and to preserve it for the generations who will follow.

Author Ibn Warraq‘s most recent book is The Islam in Islamic Terrorism: The Importance of Beliefs, Ideas, and Ideology. In it, he takes the dogmas of jihadists seriously and critically examines the Islamic sources upon which they draw. Ibn Warraq is perhaps most famous for his best-selling work, Why I Am Not a Muslim (1995), an early warning to the West about the dangers of political Islam and multiculturalism. He has edited and contributed to several books of Koranic criticism and on the origins of Islam: The Origins of the Koran, 1998; The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, 2000; What the Koran Really Says, 2002; Which Koran? 2011; and Christmas in the Koran, 2014. Bernard Lewis has written that, “Ibn Warraq exemplifies the rarely combined qualities of courage, integrity, and intelligence.” Ibn Warraq’s Defending the West: A Critique of Edward Said’s Orientalism, 2007, was described by distinguished professor Paul Berman as “a glorious work of scholarship, and it is going to contribute mightily to modernizing the way we think about Western civilization and the rest of the world.” In Why the West is Best, 2011, Ibn Warraq addressed the need for Western civilization to regain its civilizational self-confidence. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has said that “Warraq’s books have defended Western civilization and have reminded us what we are fighting for.” He is currently Senior Research Fellow at the Westminster Institute, a Senior Fellow at the London Center for Policy Research, and a contributing editor to The New English Review. He studied Arabic and Persian at the University of Edinburgh.

American Truth Project discusses the Koranic verses which command mass murder.

  Enrique and Andrew catch up on what the birds are saying. They talk about the effect of living with an oracle versus reading and oracle. The conversation winds through ideas of how being in tune wit the oracles impact their relationship with the rest of life. Finally they end by answering listeners questions.  Episode 13, Poetry, Magic, and Ice Cream, and episode 63 [00:00:30], Definitions and Silence. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. If you'd like to connect with Enrique go check him out on Facebook here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcription ANDREW: [00:00:00] Hello, my friends, welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I wanted to let you know that the new intro music here was composed by my daughter, Claire. I hope you dig it. I certainly am loving on her creativity. Also, this is episode 91 with Enrique Enriquez. And if you have not caught our past conversations, you should go check them out: Episode 13, Poetry, Magic, and Ice Cream, and episode 63 [00:00:30], Definitions and Silence. Both available in the archives, either on the website or in your podcast catcher.  [new music!] Speaker 2: [00:01:00] Let me start by saying thank you to all the Patreons who support this podcast in general, and specifically help the process of providing transcripts of every episode to the public so that anybody for any reason can access all this wonderful information. Those fine people are getting access to great bonus material and they make this happen. If you are listening to this podcast, think about how many episodes you've listened to, how much you've appreciated it [00:01:30], and please consider heading on over to Patreon.com/TheHermitsLamp, and pitching something in to continue supporting this work. It is truly a situation where every dollar helps.  Welcome back to The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm here today with Enrique Enriquez, who is a card reader, poet, and artist, and you know was featured in a wonderful movie called Tarology, which [00:02:00] you can find on many places online right now. [Here's the trailer on YouTube: https://youtu.be/A5UR3VesQGo] This is the third time that Enrique has been on the show, and if you haven't checked out the other episodes, check the show notes for them. I'll provide links, so people can go back and hear our previous conversations. Enrique, for people who are meeting you for the first time, who are you? What are you about? What's going on?  ENRIQUE: Well, you know, the other day I went to a bookstore that is across the street. And first of all, Andrew, it's always [00:02:30] so good to hear you and always so good to talk to you.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: But anyway, you know, I have this book store across the street and I went there. And there was this voice, they were doing something on the floor, I was talking to the guy. And then as I was about to leave, the woman on the floor stood up to say, "Wait!" and then I turn around and say, "What?" And say, "Are you the guy who talks like a bird?" And I say, "Yes, as a matter of fact [00:03:00], I am," and she say, "Yes, a friend told me about you," and I . . . That made me very happy, you know?  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ENRIQUE: So, I guess, I am the man who speaks like a bird. ANDREW: Excellent. ENRIQUE: And at the moment, that seems to be plenty.  ANDREW: I think that's wonderful. I mean, for me, listening to the birds and, and trying to speak with them is definitely one of my, one of my favorite things these days. You know, I've been spending, for [00:03:30] years now, really spending a lot of time trying to engage with them, and more and more over time I've found myself drawn deeper and deeper into . . . into the world of birds. So yeah, it's wonderful.  ENRIQUE: Yes. Yeah, if you know, I suspect that birds are some sort of [Amic? Homic?] knowledge religion that is universal. I only know one person, a friend of mine, who says that birds are jerks and he hates birds. And [00:04:00] he say, "I know you like birds, but I hate birds," and but also always ... ANDREW: (laughing) That's a lot of strong feeling for birds!  ENRIQUE: Yes, exactly. ANDREW: Why does he hate birds?  ENRIQUE: Yes, but usually, I don't know, I mean, I guess, we said, you know, a bird is somehow that the embodiment of a long [garbled at 4:28] We [00:04:30] look at a bird, we think of birds, we listen to birds. You know, it's just about survival. They go around trying to find something to eat. There is no, no Romanticism in this view of birds, which is fine. I mean, I think it's a great exception, because usually as soon as you . . . You know, the other day, I was talking to . . . having a beer with these poets, a poet from Turkey and a poet from New Zealand and [00:05:00] they asked me, "What do you think about Trump?" And I told him what I believe, which is that Trump has no place in my reality. I don't care. And then, as soon as I mentioned birds, they told me all kinds of fantastic stories about their own relationship with birds. And about 45 minutes into the conversation, I say, "See, that's why I don't think about Trump." ANDREW: Right. ENRIQUE: I mean, there are better things to talk about, your, your mind. [00:05:30] Yes, so I think that that that's how, birds account for that common longing we have, for some sort of transcendence that I don't want to, I don't want to put a name to it. But then when you actually make a bird sound, you realize that you are, you are enacting this form that is at once transparent and opaque, you know, because you're not really saying anything, and even so, everybody understands you. ANDREW: Mmm.  ENRIQUE: So I end up realizing [00:06:00] that I like to speak like a bird, and that basically means that since the beginning of this summer I started actually recording myself using all these bird calls, like these wooden artifacts or metal artifacts that imitate the sound of birds, and then sending my friends bird messages instead of text or voice messages, right? And by speaking like a bird, what I actually accomplish is, I avoid misunderstandings. ANDREW: Mmm. ENRIQUE: Everybody [00:06:31] seems to understand the form of a bird sound. ANDREW: I like it. I feel like we must have talked about this on the podcast previously. You know, in the Orisha tradition, Osain, who is . . . He's responsible for all the knowledge of all the plants and all the magic that comes from that. He's sort of the wizard who lives in the forest, who's been . . . ENRIQUE: Beautiful. ANDREW: Broken down and, you know, scarred [00:07:01] by various conflicts and battles he's had over the years, and Osain speaks like a bird. And you know, when we . . . when we do certain ceremonies and we sing, there are . . . There are these parts where we sing, where we're singing not any words, but just to imitate the sound of the birds and to acknowledge the way in which Osain speaks to us, right?  ENRIQUE: Ah, that's fantastic.  ANDREW: Yeah, so, you know ... You're in [00:07:31] good company.  ENRIQUE: Yes, of course, and, no, it's amazing when you start looking into it, that the amount of effort and time that people have put into trying to imitate birds or talk like birds or understand birds, through history. And there is a, just as you say, there was a sort of pre-Koranic poetry that was all based on imitating the cooing of a mourning dove. And then you have the same in New Guinea. There is a tribe there that all their poetry is [00:08:01] based on the idea of imitating the cooing of a mourning dove, that wailing sound.  But, I mean, there are countless examples and, of course, thousands of poems about birds, but I guess I . . . Something clicked or shifted this summer. So, I started working with that because I understood that the moment I started sending these bird sounds to people, I went from somebody who could interpret signs [00:08:31] to somebody who was just delivering signs, so they became the interpreters, they were the ones telling me: "Yes. Thank you. I really needed this today." Or, like happened the other day with this, this man. He sent me a recording of a bird that he hears out of the window and then I just mimicked it. I just imitated the same . . . I sent him back the same thing, but I made it and then he say, "Oh, I love yours because I can hear my own name in it."  ANDREW: (chuckling) ENRIQUE: And [00:09:01] you know. And that, like a friend from Finland who say, you know, "Birds are only quiet when there are earthquakes or tsunamis or something horrible is about to happen." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: "So whenever I hear your bird voice, I just feel that everything is okay." And to me that's . . . I mean in a sense, yeah, something shifted, because I think that, in a sense, turning the other person into the auger, into the interpreter, it [00:09:31] has something to do with the idea of an oracle as something that should poetize life instead of giving answers.  ANDREW: Well, and I think that, you know, let's be honest about, you know . . . I mean, I won't even bring my clients into this, about myself. There are times where I go to the oracle, hoping that the oracle will tell me that everything's going to be okay. And, you know, the prospect of thinking that well, as long as . . . as long as I can hear the birdsong, [00:10:01] or as long as I can go into my, my messenger and find a note of you playing, and play that song, the answer is the birds are singing, there's no tsunami. There's no earthquake.  ENRIQUE: Exactly.  ANDREW: There's no predator here, right? You're good. Take it easy. (laughs) ENRIQUE: Exactly. That's exactly one of the ways of seeing it, yes. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And, so, yeah, it has been a really, you know, at some point I started to suspect or to . . . Or maybe I decided [00:10:31] to start acting as if all these enterprises of divination, as if we already got it backwards. . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: You know, and usually we have this idea of this image of the person, the reader, the diviner, who's sitting waiting for the client or the, you know, consultant to come. And then I decided, no, it should be the other way around, right? Because in . . . I was reading The Iliad, you know, and there is this moment, which is a rather irrelevant moment, [00:11:01] when it is said that when a person arrives to the city, he fills everybody with excitement because of course, there is still the potential of what this person may be bringing, you know, news, things, a weird fruit, something, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then I thought about that in relationship with angels, and the idea of the angel. And of course, angel is a word that comes from a Greek word for messenger, [00:11:31] right? So, the idea of the messenger. The messenger brings news, like the birds that come and, as you say, everything is okay. The birds are singing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Or look over there, because the bird, you know, flew that way.  So, I decided, I think it's better to become the angel, or to imitate, you know, dreams and angels, which are the only oracles that actually visit people. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And obliterate the reading on the table and just be . . . appear on people's lives and [00:12:01] then disappear, which is something you can now do, thanks to all these little gadgets we have, and social media, and all that, so you can really become, or have, a virtual presence. So that's where I am at now.  ANDREW: You've become the psychopomp, right?  ENRIQUE: Yeah, somehow, yeah in a sense. It's this idea of . . . I mean, I . . . You know, I am a witness, and I look at things, you [00:12:31] know, and, at some point, I guess I . . . what I understand is that I, in terms of giving answers to people, solving people's problems, giving them solutions, healing, all that stuff. I don't do that. I don't know how to do that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: But I know how to pay attention. I know how to be a witness. So, at some point it may be that I find a place and form. Right? I look at something that is worth [garbled] or worth sharing and then [00:13:01] maybe that sound, that word, that form could be the answer to somebody's question or the solution to somebody's problem. It could even bring some sort of healing to them, but it's not me. It's not me doing it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: It's . . . They are the ones interpreting the sign. ANDREW: Well, and I think that . . . You know, I think that one of the things that's really interesting and that, you know, I certainly appreciate about you and about all of our dialogues because, [00:13:31] you know, I think that the delivering of more concrete messages is also great and it's a thing that I certainly enjoy.  But I'm also really interested in this space where, where we, revoke the expectation of meaning in a concrete way. You know? And like, I made this deck earlier in the year, which I shared with you when I was in New York, you know, the Land of the Sacred Self Oracle.  ENRIQUE: Yes.  ANDREW: And you know, I created . . . [00:14:02] I initially wanted to say nothing about it. And like, I was like, I just want to make it and put it out there. But everybody, almost everybody that I talked to was like, "I don't know what I'm . . . I don't know what to do with this. So, I need you to tell me stuff." And I was like, "All right." So, I created this course for it and . . . which is, which is now, it's just basically a PDF. And the first lesson is, these images are nothing but ink on paper, [00:14:32] they don't mean anything. They have no concrete meaning in and of themselves. What do you actually see? You know? Because I think that leading people back to themselves is so profound and so powerful.  ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And so, against the nature of our culture, right? The nature of . . .  ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: . . . the Modern Age, right?  ENRIQUE: Well, but that . . . What is interesting about that is that, that is exactly what contemporary art brought about. ANDREW: Right. [00:15:02]  ENRIQUE: You know? All . . . today, beginning of the 20th century, art basically showcased a common narrative and that could be . . . You know, you go to Italy to see all these paintings of the Virgin Mary or Christ, or the, the, you know, the Book of Genesis or whatever. You have this idea of okay, we all understand what we are seeing because we share these references. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then came, you know, Malevich or Kandinsky [00:15:32] or even Donald Judd or all these people and say, "No, now you have the possibility to understand that thing before you on your own terms." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And that's exactly what you're saying. Forget about what that is for the other person standing next to you. What is that to you? And of course, we still abhor that, I mean, most people put a lot of resistance to that, because they want to be told what it is. One is . . . like the other day, I had this, you know, I had [00:16:02] been reading the cards this woman finds out on the sidewalk. I have talked to you about this. For more than 10 years. And I stopped the other day because she, she sent me a card, and I told her about Nikolai Gogol, the Russian writer, and I . . . There is this wonderful little book a friend gave me about the dreams of Joseph Cornell. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: So, this woman pulled out all the dreams of Joseph Cornell [00:16:32] from his diary. And the amazing thing is that when you read his dreams you realize that they are not extraordinary in any way, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Which is beautiful, because you realize the dreams are these material things available to all of us and a plumber can have dreams that are as extraordinary as the dreams of a fantastic artist as Joseph Cornell. But what was really interesting is at the end . . . She also wrote about all these people that Cornell was influenced by. [00:17:02] Not in terms of his work, but in terms of his relationship to dreams. And that I found fascinating. He had like the lineage of others like Blaise Pascal or you know, Freud. And then he spoke, or he took notice of Nikolai Gogol, and there was this rich lady who wrote to Gogol, saying, "Can you please interpret this dream for me?" Right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And Gogol wrote back and say, "Only your soul can tell you what the dream means." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: "Don't [00:17:32] ask any wise man, because they won't tell you. They are not able to. They won't be able to say what it means. You have to find a quiet space. You have to. Within yourself you will find the meaning of the dream." So, I said that to this woman, right, who had sent me a little card she found somewhere. And she got enraged. She told me, "No, you have the obligation of telling me what it means." Because of course, we don't want to be within ourself. That's a . . . [00:18:02] It's a . . . it's a very tall order. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And, in theory, we don't have time, right? We are always under this imaginary constraint of time. And she said that "You have the obligation of telling me." Of course, I dropped communication immediately because I feel I have no obligation. I have two kids, that's obligations enough.  ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: Other than that, you know. But in a sense, I understand, there is a . . . what you're saying, in terms [00:18:32] of your own deck. I mean, people have an extraordinary resistance of coming to terms with their own experience, because actually, most people are looking for mythology, not for experience. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: You know. They want a little story. They don't want an experience.  ANDREW: Well, and exactly. You know, and I . . . a friend of mine who I was sharing the art with as I was making it, you know, they would have this reaction where they would be obviously fascinated by it, and then . . . But they'd be like, [00:19:02] "But I don't know what it means." And I'm like, "Well, just look at it. Do you have a feeling?" And they're like, "Yeah. I really have a feeling when I look at this." I'm like, "Great, then it's perfect. Go with that feeling!" You know? And even if their reactions were not, not articulatable, right? They would . . . I might have, you know, had I known then, I might have been like, "Just sing me a bird song about it. And we'll see what it says," you know?  ENRIQUE: Yeah. Well because if something [00:19:32] is really hitting home, the only possible responses are either laughter or silence.  ANDREW: Yes.  ENRIQUE: You know, that's the moment when we are completely impacted by something. We laugh, which is almost like a defense mechanism or we are quiet, because of this, we are taking it deep, you know. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: So, and of course, we still think that we have to feel special and important when we are having an experience.  ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. Because people aren't comfortable sitting in [00:20:02] that. So, I was at this conference and, as the culmination of the workshop that we were doing, we were to sit and gaze into the other person's eyes, and sort of allow all that had been exchanged between us to sort of settle in. And the person that I was sitting with was uncomfortable with this and started to laugh every time we looked and tried to look away a bit or whatever. And so, I just sort of sat there and said to myself, "Well, I [00:20:32] can laugh with them, we can laugh together."  And so, so I started to laugh and as soon as I started to laugh, they continued, but were able to sort of sit with me with it. And so, we sat there, you know, in the midst of several hundred people. Everyone else dead silent and gazing solemnly into everybody else's eyes and having their own experience. And the two of us laughing so hard the tears were rolling down our face, because it just kept escalating, the longer we did it, the funnier [00:21:02] it got, right? And you know, I mean . . . ENRIQUE: That's brilliant. ANDREW: One of the . .  . one of the more magical experiences of it, you know, and I don't remember what the rest of the reading was. I have no idea what we said to each other. I mean, I might . . . I think I made some notes, I could go and look, but for me, the real significance was that we both changed something in that moment through our engagement and our laughter, right?  ENRIQUE: Yes, and that's actually . . . That was an actual communication, you know, where you had your communication, [00:21:32] communicating through laughter, which is in a way communicating through form. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And not through words. I mean words are wonderful. And I love words, but words are also overrated. You know, there is a whole field of experience that exists outside of words.  ANDREW: Sure. Yeah. ENRIQUE: And, and when you really have a profound experience, you are usually in the space outside of language, then comes the problem of sharing it, right? And then you have to find the right words, which is a whole other thing. But with the actual experience is not in the space mediated by language. [00:22:03]  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ENRIQUE: No matter what the French say.  ANDREW: Yeah. I completely agree with you. I think that that that sort of moment where you're just engaged with something beyond words is . . . is really where, where things are wonderful. Right? ENRIQUE: Yes. Absolutely. ANDREW: I mean, it's, it's an experience that I'm always seeking out, you know, in one way or another right? In my relationships. In my relationship with nature, through the art that I make, even, even through my hobbies, like going rock climbing. One of the things I like about rock climbing is [00:22:33] that, you know, when you're 25 feet off the ground, and you know, working on a climbing problem, there's no . . . There's nothing but the sort of sense of trying to figure out how to move in space in relationship with the wall and it's not . . . it's not words. ENRIQUE: Exactly. ANDREW: It's not anything. It's just . . . it's just a feeling and it's the feeling of being in that relationship with the wall itself and the puzzle, you know? ENRIQUE: Yeah, I mean that's, that's actually a beautiful example because the wall is there, [00:23:03] speaking in stone. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ENRIQUE: And then . . . and your body has to reply in your negative space for the stone.  ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: Otherwise, you basically fall and die.  ANDREW: Right. ENRIQUE: So, you have to become endowed with that form and that's a . . . yeah, that's an excellent example.  ANDREW: Yeah, and it's definitely one of those things where you know, you can make your mind up. You know, I mean, especially, you know, like I'm not the world's best climber by any means, but you know, I climb [00:23:33] sort of relatively challenging, for most people, kind of things. You can decide all sorts of things before you start the climb, but once you put your hand or your foot or you know, whatever on the, on the hold then it tells you, if you're listening, what it wants you to do or needs you to do.  ENRIQUE: Yes.  ANDREW: And everything that you thought ahead of time kind of can go completely out the window where you're like, "Oh. I thought I'd be able to hold it from that angle. But in fact, I have to hold it from the other side now," or "I have to do this [00:24:03] or that," or "Oh, wow. That space is so much broader than I thought it was. I don't know how to, how to cross that gap now." And then you . . . then you have to sort of feel it and feel the motion and it really becomes a process of .  . . Most of the problem-solving comes not so much from even thinking about it, but from being there and saying, "Okay, where do I feel the most settled in this position? And where do I feel like I can move from?"  ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And then you're like, "Okay, now, now, now I [00:24:33] can see my way forward."  ENRIQUE: Yeah, any embodied knowledge that you have, that we all have, and of course you acquire with experience the more you speak or you are in dialogue with the rock and the mountain, but at the same time, somehow, that's also dream. That's some sort of thing which, just letting the symbolic world, meaning the world of forms, guide you upwards. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. Well, [00:25:03] I mean, I feel like this this brings us into something that you and I have been, you know, discussing, you know, kind of . . . I mean over the last, last year or so, over the last six months, you know, this question of what does it mean to live with the oracle versus to sort of learn and work the oracle. I'm not sure if I'm articulating it quite right in those words, but it's a good starting point, right?  ENRIQUE: Yes, and I think [00:25:33--a little garbled here] that that's extraordinary. It's really an important question, I think. Then . . . I mean, for example, there are ways to tackle it, but this year, I finally managed to stop doing tarot readings for . . . which means that I finally managed to say no, which is really hard because usually what you want to say, "Yes," but I decided that it had no, I mean, I decided that there is a . . . You [00:26:04] know, honesty is prophecy. And then, when you actually give an honest look at anything, you know the future. And it's only when we fool ourselves, you know, we say, "Yeah, let me invite my alcoholic friend to the party. I'm sure this time he's going to be okay." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: That's when we, you know, get derailed and then we get surprised by something that in theory, we say [00:26:34] is unexpected, but it isn't, you know, we are just fooling ourselves. But so, I decided okay, if you really remove things from the table, the only thing you can do is be present, you know, and pay attention.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: But of course, I can only accept that because whatever effect extended exposure to the tarot had on me, [00:27:04] allows me now to see that way, you know, and for . . . I see it.  At some point you realize that the reason why we place two cards and put a space in between them, right, and at some point, then, we realize that we think of that in terms of space only because we are very slow, but it's not really space, it's time. And then we [00:27:34] realize, oh, that time is equivalent to the time that exceeds between the two, [garbled, some words may be lost] somehow you realize, you discover, and you inhabit the space in between. You live, we live in the world all the time, cards or no cards, right? And I think that the, the, I mean the ultimate effect, I guess, is to be able to have a beautiful life and I think [00:28:04] that has to do a lot with being able to be present and to contemplate what is around and then you let . . .  I find myself in a very strange position, because I now work with all these people who are interested in language of the birds. So, we work with, you know, words, fundamentally, we break words apart and we turn them into little clouds, and we are actually looking for the void [00:28:34] within the words, right? And the letters become pegs that are holding the void in place. So, we go beyond meaning into form and then I will feel that it's almost like, sometimes, it's almost like seeing an angel. Like seeing a, you know, you see this beautiful thing that you know you found it when you see it, but you can't even define it, right?  And it has been one thing to do that for years and years on my own and another very [00:29:04] different one to . . . to share that work with other people and then to see the effect that work has on them. Right? And one of the beautiful things, of course, is that people feel very grounded, very centered, when they do this work, but then you have it. So, these are the people that . . . (ringing phone) ANDREW: I'm sorry.  Let's pause for a second, Enrique, until my phone stops ringing. ENRIQUE: And we can see that could be . . . Absolutely.  ANDREW: All right. [00:29:34] Apparently, I can't make the phone stop either. (laughing) Oh, boy.  ENRIQUE: Yes. You don't have superpowers.  ANDREW: I don't have superpowers. Yeah, okay.  ENRIQUE: So yeah, so, in any case, when you start sharing the work with other people, and they start doing that work, and you realize, oh, now people are talking about how their dreams change, right? And they have all these different beautiful [00:30:04] dreams that somehow follow the forms they are putting on the paper, right? Or, or people who feel grounded. And then you realize well, this is what living with the oracle is. It finds expression in anything you arrange . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Around you. And, you know, Gaston Bachelard, the French writer, talks about poetic [00:30:34] reverie, right? And he says, literally that, he says, we can't actually . . . We have to discount dreams because we don't have control over them. But then, if you submerge yourself in a constant state of poetic reverie, you change your own dreams. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Because you are learning to be beautifully in the world, to think beautifully, right? And in a form . . . in a way form begets form. So, if you learn to move in a certain way, then that can [00:31:04] raise an echo, right? And all that . . . I know that all this may sound very abstract and probably useless, but it all accounts for basically being in the world in a beautiful way and living a beautiful life. Eventually, you can share those things with other people. And . . .  For example, the other day I was talking to this very young woman. Her name was Natasha. And I showed her how her name . . . You know that if you separate the variables, which are the soul of a word [00:31:34] from the body, which is the consonants. She basically . . . the three As on Natasha form a triangle, right? With them . . . like an inverted triangle.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then the consonants form a square. So, when I show her that as forms, we saw how her soul, the triangle, was a little bit off-center to the square, the body, and she was really concerned about appearing or being too [00:32:04] predictable. So that gave her great comfort. Because of course, having an off-center soul is not being predictable. And, in a sense, I had to explain that. I just saw something. I say, "Oh, well, this makes me feel better." And I don't know what that is. And again, I never know what that can do for anybody. But I also think that there is some comfort for me [00:32:34] in thinking that something so abstract cannot be named, right? Because if you cannot really name it, then you probably cannot trivialize it.  ANDREW: Hmm. I think it's . . . I think it's . . . You know, my . . . So many things. All my thoughts are colliding now! (laughing) And it's like, how do I put all this into words that make any sense to anybody else? Right? It's just . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: So, [00:33:04] we talked about how . . . you know, being . . . we need to, we need to sort of see things as they are, right? And that when we're surprised by circumstance in readings, possibly, probably, we've been fooling ourselves on some level, you know? Because I think that, I think that that's certainly my experience, right? There are . .  . there are surprises, life is surprising at times, but most of the things that people ask [00:33:34] questions about aren't really surprising and people generally have a notion about what's going on. They just don't like it, don't want to say it, don't want to face it, or whatever.  You know, and for me, you know this sort of Stoic idea of it's always better to know what's real then to sort of live in any other kind of version of reality, you know, or to cover it up. I think that that's something that I sort [00:34:04] of really have valued over a long time. And I think that the kind of Stoic notions, if you can kind of work with them outside of the macho bullshit, that's so much stuff that gets layered on them today, I think that they really can be helpful. And then I think that once we know what's real or what's, you know, closest to what's real, for whatever we want to say about that. That's a whole other episode, but . . .  ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: Then we can start to understand [00:34:34] and engage with this other world that doesn't need to have concreteness attached to it per se, right? And I think about my walk in the woods talking to the birds. I think about . . .  People always ask me, you know, like, "Well, do you do daily readings? What do you . . . How do you read the cards for yourself?" And you know, these days, a lot of what I do is, I just sit with the cards. And I put out some Marseilles cards and then I put out my, you [00:35:04] know, my Sacred Self Oracle, and I look for, look for the patterns that emerge between those. And especially because I'm often taking notes on my iPad, I'll take a picture of that card, and then I'll draw on top of it. And I've moved outside of the notion of reading in any sense that anybody means by that. And . . .  ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And it is so grounding, and so centering, and sometimes there's a message that emerges, [00:35:34] sometimes it filters back down into language or words or whatever. And often the words that come out don't even really matter. They don't even necessarily make sense in any sort of overt way, but the flow of them, the practice of making them or arranging them, the practice of thinking them, is the message and is the oracle. ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And the consequence of that oracle is not tangible and direct in an overt way, but [00:36:04] it somehow modifies myself and my relationship to the world, my day, whatever it is that's going on, in ways that allow me to move forward in a different manner. ENRIQUE: Yes. That's the dialogue in the day. The hand and the wall rock, you know, when your hand gets caught, to match the rock wall, your climb, it's the same thing. It's form speaking to form. And that in itself is [00:36:34] the message. And of course, that doesn't have an intellectual effect, because you can't just even talk about it. It has an emotional effect . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Which is something that a lot of people miss. When you are in contact with an oracle, you're basically exposing yourself to, to have, to that, for that thing to have an emotional impact on you. And, and maybe, there is something also, that may be very silly, you know, but oracle is a word that basically accounts [00:37:05] originally, at least, for an opaque or oblique utterance, right? A phrase, a bunch of words that don't have a clearer meaning.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ENRIQUE: So, it requires thought and, and in the way I see it, there is an experience that let's say, is a little common still. A person, any person, opens a poetry book, finds a line in the poem, and thinks, "Ah, this [00:37:35] speaks to my condition right now." Right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And we know that that poet didn't write that for her, or not even about, it's not even about that, that the person is experiencing. But the person can see how that speaks to her. You know, "Yes, this accounts for this experience I'm having." ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ENRIQUE: And that's an experience that most people feel or know, understand, and even our culture at large values [00:38:05] it, that. We respond to it, we pride ourselves on being a culture that generates that kind of experience. So, we can take that one step further, and say, well this is a . . . Fal'e Hafiz, you know, the divination with a poet by Hafiz, the Iranian poet, which is basically the same thing, only that it's not any book of poetry, but only a book of poetry by Hafiz. You think about a problem you have, you open it up, the [00:38:35] first line you read, that's the answer . . . ANDREW: Mm. ENRIQUE: To your problem. And the thing is, that Hafiz was a very very obscure poet. So, it's never like, "come back on Tuesday," or, you know, play the 36."  ANDREW: Right!  ENRIQUE: So, it's a really really contrived sentence. So, you have to meditate upon it. It is the same as meditating upon form. And then eventually say "Yes, I understand how this is speaking to my condition." [00:39:06]  And we can take that one step further and say the I Ching, right? Which is still a book and still full of lines, literally and metaphorically. But then, now, we don't say, "Okay, open it in any page and the first thing you see, that will be it." We say, "No, we're actually engaging with chance." So, we take all these sticks or the coins and we start going through a process that renders this idea of the odd and the even. [00:39:36] So we, you know, we get to the hexagrams. And then from the hexagrams to some sort of commentary on the hexagrams. So, we are again left with some sort of obscure phrase that in theory is responding to our situation, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then the next step, of course, is get rid of the book.  ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: And keep the sticks. And right there, we have all the divination [00:40:06] systems we know, right? We have the shells with the bones, throw the cards, or the coffee stains or grinds or the clouds. And the funny thing is in our culture, the moment we get rid of the book, we step into what people define as superstition, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ENRIQUE: It's no longer this poetica pursuit, basically, because we have this very old-fashioned idea of poetry as something that is anchored on the word, words, and [00:40:36] not on form. But of course, every time you look at an oracle you're reading, and that reading is a poetic reading. It's as opaque and obscure as the poetry by Hafiz or the I Ching commentary or the poem that you read and . . .  ANDREW: Well in the . . . ENRIQUE: You know, I was talking about this with . . . yeah, yes, go ahead.  ANDREW: In a sense, you know, when we . . . You know, not in a literal sense, because from within the tradition, we have a different dialogue [00:41:06] about it, but from the point of view of our conversation, when we are divining with the cowrie shells and we say that the, the Odu has arrived, right? Like the living energy of the Orisha that is the sign that came out in this divination. And the belief is that the arrival of that Odu changes the person's life. It is . . . it is just that process of invoking that energy through [00:41:36] the shells, and looking at it and seeing it and it being there, and then afterwards the diviner's job is more so to manage that dialogue and make sure that the person understands enough of what has been said so they can go away and think about it, right? I mean and there are other sort of literal pieces too but, but that idea of the energy of the oracle arriving, and us receiving it, and that being the thing that changes our life . . . You know, it comes with the notion that we don't understand [00:42:06] what that is, exactly. We can't articulate it clearly.  And even, even when we're interpreting the Odu in a traditional way, we can't necessarily, on any level, understand all of the implications and so on of that. We are merely just making sure that we've, you know, read the appropriate lines that are relevant to it and marked the right things. And after that, it's up to the person to sit with it and allow that to unfold with them and through them and so on, in a way that [00:42:36] is certainly energetic and otherwise, but also definitely poetic, and goes back to that sort of obtuseness of Hafiz, or other things, the I Ching, where it's like, "Huh? What does this really mean? How does this apply? How does this apply today? How does this apply while I'm at the butcher's? How does this apply when I pick my kids up from school? You know? It's that living with it that is the . . . that is where we get the most out of it and where it is the most transformational. You know? ENRIQUE: Yes. Yeah, and [00:43:06] I mean, I was talking about this with my wife the other day, and she say that the problem, really, the moment you get rid of the book or the moment that you step into the oracle is the other person, the interpreter, you know? There is this, the moment you need the other person to tell you how to relate to the oracle. And I thought that was really interesting because again, it's brought me back to the woman who say, "You are in the obligation of telling me because I'm not going to do any thinking."  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And [00:43:36] of course, I mean, again, it is really interesting to, for me at the moment to think again that by delivering an open object, turn the other person into the interpreter. They have to come to terms with forms and understand what those forms are saying to them. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Because at least I don't know. I don't know what, who they are. I don't know what they are, you know, feeling, and I must certainly have no, [00:44:06] nothing to say about anybody's life, but they know. I think they always know. And you say, also a few minutes ago, they have an idea of what's going on. And basically, they may not like it. So, they're trying to find almost like a second opinion. That's why . . . I mean the other day, somebody was asking me about the ethics of readings and divination and I told her, well, there is an ethical problem, because in my experience [00:44:36] most clients are dishonest. They want to hear what they want to hear.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And they will twist your words. They will, you know, re-ask the question again and again until they get what they want, and even if you don't give it to them, they will hear every word you say as if you say what they want to hear. So, of course, there is a lot of dishonesty in the profession, but it mostly come from the clients. Of course, [00:45:06] there are dishonest readers. But even the honest reader has to put up with that person who has decided beforehand what they want to hear. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And I see that as way more . . . I mean, and again, it's really . . . Do you know, I think that there is a love for the majority for example of the cards or any oracle, at some point you want to really share that beauty with other people. And that takes you so far. It [00:45:37] comes to a point at which you understand: "Yes, but I'm speaking of a beauty and this woman's still speaking about this [garbled] on Thanksgiving. You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: I really don't care. It's not really my problem.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, yeah. I think too, like, somebody . . . Somebody was asking me if . . . Somebody was . . . I was posting about my . . . So, my journey for, with [00:46:07] rock climbing. You know, I was, I set myself a goal for the year. This is the only resolution I made for 2018. And my resolution for 2018 was to still be climbing at the end of the year. That was my, my entire goal. No achievement attached to it. No, you know, anything else, just still be going and doing it. Just keep returning if you go away, and be, and still be there at the end of the year. Because [00:46:37] I think that, you know, like the oracle, you know, if we, if we promise to keep showing up, you know, the oracle reveals things to us over time. ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: We don't know when or how that comes, and so if we endeavor to be with it, then, then we will hear what we need to hear as we go, to a large extent. And somebody, somebody was posting . . . somebody posted in response to that, that if they, they wondered if the universe challenged us whenever we set an intention, you [00:47:07] know, if it deliberately brought stuff up, you know. And I think that for me, and I'll let you answer for yourself. But for me, living with the oracle in this open-ended way and living, in a, for lack of a better term, kind of more Stoic way with a real sort of working to, to see things as clearly as possible all the time and face the things that I might rather put in the closet or leave [00:47:37] for another day.  I don't . . . I don't feel like the universe has a lot of agency in the way that that question implies, you know? There are surprises that are . . . that happen, you know? You know, in relationship to me climbing this year, there were two surprises: One, I dislocated my collarbone in the winter, tobogganing with my daughter. And that took like [00:48:07] four months to really fix. It's horrible. I don't recommend it to anybody. And two, you know, I'm getting divorced this year and, you know, although that is amicable and, and going well, relatively speaking, it takes a lot of time and attention and doesn't always leave energy for other things. But I don't think that any of those have any relationship to . . . to my intention or my desire to climb or do other things. I think that those are, those [00:48:37] are just the inevitable stories of being alive, right? We are alive, and things happen and we get sick and . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: Life comes up and things change and so on and we don't need to, or I never need to, arrange a narrative around that in a bigger way. So, I'm curious. I'm curious for you. Do you . . . What agency do you feel comes back from the universe? Do you think that there is something organizing it or testing us or . . .  ENRIQUE: No, I actually, no, I always say the same thing. I think that [00:49:07] the universe doesn't care about us. Or maybe I will say it doesn't care about me. And I know that people want to be, to feel otherwise, you know, but you know when I was a kid . . . and this image has been coming back a lot recently. I watched this documentary about Africa, right? And there was this method of catching monkeys, which consisted of filling up a hollow tree with grain. ANDREW: Uh huh. ENRIQUE: And then, you know, the monkey will stick his hand into the hollow [00:49:37] tree, grab the grain, but then couldn't take the handful, the fistful out. The hole was only big enough for the empty hand to come in. But if he had grain in his hand, in his hand, he couldn't take it out. ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: And basically, these guys just will walk up to the monkey and grab it because the monkey will never let go of the grain.  ANDREW: Yes.  ENRIQUE: And I mean, it's insane, right? But I think that in terms of daily life, we are all monkeys with our hand [00:50:07] stuck in a hollow tree.  ANDREW: Yes. ENRIQUE: And most of the time, you realize, yeah, but can you just open the hand and let go? ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: Life works the way it works. And in that sense, there is no mystery, even if it takes you by surprise all the time, basically because we think that there is a mystery there. And yes, sometimes we catch a cold and sometimes we get divorced and sometimes we, you know, we're surprised by somebody giving us a loaf of bread. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ENRIQUE: I . . . I [00:50:38] don't think that actually, at least I understand that that's not the way people think, but I never thought of any kind of oracular work where oracles had any dealings with daily life in that sense, of letting me know if I should change the oil of my car today or next week, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: I think it's more about transcending daily life and finding some sort of center, true beauty [00:51:08] through some sort of . . .  ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: Through some sort of sublime condition in life. ANDREW: For sure.  ENRIQUE: Yeah, but all day, even the other day I was talking about, you know, people, people talk about sigils, and then I realized, first, the first mistake you make when you make a sigil is wanting something? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then you realize when you make a sigil to, I don't know, lose weight. Let's [00:51:38] say. And another sigil to get a red car. You're basically making the same operation, right? You make, you take the words, you eliminate certain letters, and you consolidate everything into one small or smaller emblem. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then you realize, oh, but what you're doing there, it doesn't matter what you want. What you're doing again and again and again is a reduction. That's what then . . . In the world of forms, [00:52:08] what you are actually spelling is a reduction. Which means that in time, it doesn't matter how many things you wanted, you end up with your mind drinking.  ANDREW: Hmm. ENRIQUE: And of course, people don't like that, because, besides you can't sell a book saying this stuff, right? You can't sell any books and don't want stuff. They only want books that say, I'm sorry, I want to say you're entitled [00:52:38] to want everything, and I can tell you how to get it.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: But you realize there is something really silly about trying to control daily life, especially because daily life is not even that interesting, you know, and it takes care of itself.  ANDREW: Mm. Yeah. I think that . . . I mean it's kind of why, over the years, I've sort of moved to . . . My [00:53:08] magic that I do tends to tends to be most often orientated towards what I, what I kind of now often call as identity magic, which is how do I, how do I change myself so that I can be more like more like what seems fruitful, more like what, you know, remove those obstacles in myself to doing the things that I need, you know, it's not so much about changing the world as it is about [00:53:38] shifting myself in relationship to it so that . . . If there's desire attached to it, so that what I desire is more accessible, or so that I'm more, more at ease and more in the flow around whatever it is that I need to work on and change, you know? ENRIQUE: Yes.  ANDREW: Yeah.  ENRIQUE: Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a song. At some point, I understood or I [00:54:08] have been made to understand that presence is meaning . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And presence is also performance.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Whatever you are, you're performing, you're enacting, you are projecting something, and causing an effect. And I'm at the moment more interested in just being, you know, and be present and play along with the fact that causes. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: It's like when this woman started laughing, looking at [00:54:38] your eyes, and you laughed with her, you know, you said that's a reaction in the moment and that's what there, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And trying to make her chop or, I don't know, levitate, will be useless. So, yeah, it's . . . I'm finding a lot of pleasure in walking around by with my pockets empty. And of course, I don't know what magic is. I think that, in other words, I think that magic or [00:55:08] some experience of mystery that I actually pursue or often feel works best when you don't want anything, when you don't want it, and it appears and surprises you, gives you something. It's like a gift, you know, but it's not something you pursue in terms of how can I command for this to happen at will. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And again, I understand that when you say that magic . . . When . . . the moment I speak [00:55:38] of magic without will, I'm almost like undefining magic in terms of what people think magic is, right? They all seem to be convinced it's about will, exerting our will, and I think it's more about stepping aside, letting things happen.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Well, I think it's definitely about . . . for me, it's definitely about making space so that [00:56:08] I can be engaged and present with the subject of the magic in a way that it allows it to unfold, to some extent without control, to a large extent without control, because I think that the idea of, you know, "Oh, I really want this person to fall in love with me." I mean, I think the minute that you're fixated on, on one person is the minute that you've already kind of drifted into a problematic territory and should go back to . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: Why that person? [00:56:38] Why do you want them when they are not reciprocating? What is it you're looking for? What is it you could do without magic to make this . . . ? You know, I mean, many questions, right? But, but rather, what could I . . . What could I do to have more, more romance in my life? What could I do to have better connections? And is there a magical act that, that feeds and supports that in an open-ended and sort of allowing the universe to show us, allowing ourselves to witness and notice it in an open, open [00:57:08] and present way as the opportunities float around us, rather than sort of exerting a massive amount of control, which I think is, which is very rarely fruitful, you know.  ENRIQUE: Yes. Well, you know, my . . . This year, one of my favorite moments is . . . I have this friend, who about 12 years ago, he was named the godfather of a child, right? And he decided beautifully that his gift to this kid will be the gift of language. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: So, he set up an account, a bank account and he has [00:57:38] been putting money there for years, assuming that at some point, maybe this kid will want to learn, you know, Italian so he can go to Rome and live there and learn the language. But then this summer, he spent a morning with me by the river and we were playing with all these bird voices, you know, and talking like birds and the birds will come and all this and that. So, and he went, he bought a box full of birdcallers and sent it to this kid.  Yeah, so there is something extraordinarily beautiful in [00:58:08] inspiring a person to complete this crazy act of gifting a kid a set of birdcallers, and then he wrote this note, saying, "I believe this is a good first language for you to learn. And, and then for that gesture not to fall flat, you know, and for the kid to actually embrace this, and then this is a kid I don't know, I probably will never see in my life, but somehow, it's beautiful to think that there [00:58:38] is some residual effect of what I do that is part of that kid's life, and I don't know. I'm . . .  The other day, for example, this woman wrote to me and she said that she wanted to speak like a hawk. And it's beautiful. We saw this at [Brawn's?] we saw that actually allows her to do so. And she say, "Well, I have a problem, and the problem I have is that I'm surrounded by [00:59:08] sparrows." So, I told her, "Well, you know, the problem is that the only way you have for you to know if you are actually doing it right is that all those sparrows are going to fly away, because you've become a predator, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And she say, "Oh, but, I mean, I love the sparrows. Do you think they were going to trust me?" I said, "Yes. I mean, they are going to trust you as much as a sparrow trusts a hawk." Okay. So yeah, it's fantastic to think you can . . . A, this faith [00:59:38] when a person can ask you that question, can talk about this [garbled] bird's nest to still be close to the birds. And at the same time, like a little bit . . . We are really not just talking about talking like a hawk, or talking about voice, we are talking about the consequences of having a certain voice and being responsible for what we say, what we put out in the world. And I . . . being full of all of the [garbled] but I can [01:00:08] see the poetry or of living a poetic life through embracing the form of a bird voice and the bird language. So yeah. ANDREW: That's wonderful. Well, maybe we should wrap up the us talking part of the conversation here, and there were definitely some questions that came through, through Facebook. And I think at this point, I'd love to, I'd love to hear you give like a one word [01:00:38] or a one phrase answer to them, rather than us sort of go into a big long conversation or . . . kind of like we did in one of them where . . .  ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: I did the rapid-fire questions at you. Let's look at these rapid fire . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And see what comes, okay? So, one person asks . . .  ENRIQUE: Okay.  ANDREW: So, with your children, are they interested, would you teach them these things about card reading? What are your thoughts on children and cards? [01:01:08]  ENRIQUE: Well, I have three kids. The middle kid already asked me to teach him and I did so. And then yesterday, my daughter told me that, and she's 10. One of his friends, his classmates, actually asked: Did your father ever taught you, told you how to read tarot and [garbled] in the French way, in such a beautiful way, that I think she already knows everything she needs to know.  ANDREW: Yeah, my [01:01:38] youngest got a Sibilla deck and reads that for me sometimes . . . ENRIQUE: I have Sibilla, yes. ANDREW: And it's just, you know, she's so great at it. It's just, she's like, "Oh, look at this. Somebody's going to do something you don't like, but this is going to happen. But there you go. It's so wonderful," right? They have a sense of it, I think, which is great and . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: It's less about teaching and more about just . . . ENRIQUE: Yeah. I mean my son, when I explained . . . Yeah, when I explained [01:02:08] it to my son in after 15 minutes, he told me, "Oh, I understand. This is all about transformations." And I realized, "Oh, it took you 15 minutes, it took me 15 years."  ANDREW: Right?  ENRIQUE: Okay.  ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: You know, that's that. Yeah.  ANDREW: All right. Next question. What is the poem that the world needs in these times?  ENRIQUE: I don't know. I mean, I guess my [01:02:38] issue is that I don't have any faith in the poem. ANDREW: Mm. ENRIQUE: As you know, in the actual poem. I guess there's poetry, and poetry's everywhere in a sense. But I will say in terms of poetry, yes, yes, you just need to listen to the sparrows. You know, the sparrows have this beautiful thing, that is, they are like Zen monks. A sparrow only makes a, like a little sound, you know, over and over and over, so it says everything it needs to say in one syllable. It's [01:03:08] almost like tasting water, you know. So . . . ANDREW: Yeah, yeah. ENRIQUE: Yeah, the voice of the sparrow. ANDREW: What has surprised you regarding tarot in the last couple of years? ENRIQUE: You know, the tarot world is like that movie, Groundhog Day. ANDREW: (bursts out laughing) ENRIQUE: It's the same day again, over and over.  ANDREW: (still laughing) Yes, Bill Murray. ENRIQUE: So, we're all Bill [01:03:38] Murray.  ANDREW: Perfect. Yeah. ENRIQUE: And that's . . . Every day the same deck is being published, the same book is being published, the same conversation about the origin of tarot is being published, the same theory about the secret behind it is being discussed.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And that's how we go, you know, it never ends.  ANDREW: Perfect. Do you consider tarot magic? And do you practice any forms of magic?  ENRIQUE: Oh, every morning, [01:04:08] I sit at a café, in the same place next to a window. I look at words in my notebook. And if something appears [garbled--black?], in terms of form, I share it with some people and then that snowballs into something. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And that's the magic I do. And, yeah, I mean, everything can be, I guess, magic, but I do feel that for something to be magical, there has to be an otherness.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ENRIQUE: Meaning it has to take you to another [01:04:38] place. It's, I don't know. It's hard to imagine doing magic with something that is completely like a daily thing, you know, but it could be. I mean, I think that, yeah. In any case, I don't know if magic. I think that the world has a poetic influence, meaning that forms speak to each other through analogy. Maybe that's magic. I don't know if magic is an intelligence. I don't [01:05:08] know again, if there's an agency, like a big finger that is invisible and it's swirling things behind. I don't know. ANDREW: Yeah. Fair. And last question: What would, what would it take for you to put your tarot deck again right now? Given that you're not really doing readings and such any more. ENRIQUE: Every time I make an exception.  ANDREW: Yes. Yeah. ENRIQUE: Every time I make an exception, [01:05:38] I end up confirming that it's pointless.  ANDREW: Hmm.  ENRIQUE: So, no, I don't think so. I'm not, you know, I have nothing to sell, and I'm not in a crusade for people, not to do readings or to any kind of ideas I may have, I'm just trying to get by finding my own language. I will do all these things, which is a way of saying to find my own. You know, I think that that's what the philosopher's stone is. To find your own language. ANDREW: Right. ENRIQUE: And your own language is not English or Spanish or Italian. It's how [01:06:08] you organize forms around you. And that's why they . . . you know, the, the alchemists say, that's a great work, you know, and they say the philosopher's stone cannot be handed down, you know, passed to another person. You have to find it yourself. It's because of that. You have to find your own language. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Otherwise you're just living in the shadow of another person's language.  ANDREW: Right. Perfect.  ENRIQUE: And yeah, so, so and well. Yeah. Okay.  ANDREW: I think that's a great place [01:06:38] to leave it. Go find your language, everybody!  ENRIQUE: Perfect.  ANDREW: Perfect. And if it sounds like birds, let us know. (laughs)  ENRIQUE: Exactly. ANDREW: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with me this morning and especially for fighting through all the Skype up and downs. It's what I get for recording during Mercury retrograde.  ENRIQUE: Oh, it's okay. It's always great.  ANDREW: Perfect.  ENRIQUE: Thank you. It's always great to talk to you. ANDREW: Thank you, you too.  ENRIQUE: I hope to soon.  [music] ANDREW: [01:07:09] I hope you love this conversation, as always, I hope that. Enrique did all the Patreons the pleasure of recording a bird song just for them. So if you are a supporter of the Patreon in the $5 and up category, you can go find that recording now at Patreon.com/TheHermitsLamp, and if you're not a supporter: Well, what are you waiting for? The birds are waiting to speak to you. Talk to you next time.

The existence of Biblical, Koranic, or Talmudic confusion is not easy to square with an omni-god who inspired, dictated, or otherwise controlled the contents of a holy book. The Bible is long, vague, contradictory, ambiguous, and has no obvious message. There are about as many interpretations of the Bible as there are readers of the … Continue reading CA41 Argument From Biblical Confusion →

Today, America faces an enemy that most of our political leaders fear to name. This enemy brought down the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11; it bombed Madrid and London; it has motivated much of the Iraqi insurgency. Our enemy is more than murderous, suicidal terrorists. It's Islamic totalitarianism, a lethal ideology calling for holy war against infidels.In this course, Dr. Brook analyzes the origins and historical development of Islamic totalitarianism. He examines its foundation in Koranic teachings; its roots in the Muslim Brotherhood movement in Egypt dating back to 1928; its expansion throughout the Middle East with the aid of Saudi oil money; its political triumph in the Iranian Revolution; and its ultimate spread throughout the entire world, from Europe to the Far East. The course includes an extended discussion by Dr. Brook of the tenets of Islamic totalitarianism, the crucial factors that have made it possible (most notably, the intellectual weakness of the West) and the proper methods for defeating it.This course was recorded at the 2006 Objectivist Summer Conference in Boston, MA.Like what you hear?  Be sure to share!  Got Questions or hot topics you want to hear Yaron address?  Email Yaron at  AskYaron@YaronBrookShow.com.Continue the discussions anywhere on line by using #YaronBrookShow. Connect with Yaron via Tweet @YaronBrook or follow him on Facebook @ybrook and YouTube (/YaronBrook) where the Facebook Live videos of the BTR shows are now available for your viewing pleasure. 

Today, America faces an enemy that most of our political leaders fear to name. This enemy brought down the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11; it bombed Madrid and London; it has motivated much of the Iraqi insurgency. Our enemy is more than murderous, suicidal terrorists. It's Islamic totalitarianism, a lethal ideology calling for holy war against infidels.In this course, Dr. Brook analyzes the origins and historical development of Islamic totalitarianism. He examines its foundation in Koranic teachings; its roots in the Muslim Brotherhood movement in Egypt dating back to 1928; its expansion throughout the Middle East with the aid of Saudi oil money; its political triumph in the Iranian Revolution; and its ultimate spread throughout the entire world, from Europe to the Far East. The course includes an extended discussion by Dr. Brook of the tenets of Islamic totalitarianism, the crucial factors that have made it possible (most notably, the intellectual weakness of the West) and the proper methods for defeating it.This course was recorded at the 2006 Objectivist Summer Conference in Boston, MA.Like what you hear?  Be sure to share!  Got Questions or hot topics you want to hear Yaron address?  Email Yaron at  AskYaron@YaronBrookShow.com.Continue the discussions anywhere on line by using #YaronBrookShow. Connect with Yaron via Tweet @YaronBrook or follow him on Facebook @ybrook and YouTube (/YaronBrook) where the Facebook Live videos of the BTR shows are now available for your viewing pleasure. 

Today, America faces an enemy that most of our political leaders fear to name. This enemy brought down the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11; it bombed Madrid and London; it has motivated much of the Iraqi insurgency. Our enemy is more than murderous, suicidal terrorists. It's Islamic totalitarianism, a lethal ideology calling for holy war against infidels.In this course, Dr. Brook analyzes the origins and historical development of Islamic totalitarianism. He examines its foundation in Koranic teachings; its roots in the Muslim Brotherhood movement in Egypt dating back to 1928; its expansion throughout the Middle East with the aid of Saudi oil money; its political triumph in the Iranian Revolution; and its ultimate spread throughout the entire world, from Europe to the Far East. The course includes an extended discussion by Dr. Brook of the tenets of Islamic totalitarianism, the crucial factors that have made it possible (most notably, the intellectual weakness of the West) and the proper methods for defeating it.This course was recorded at the 2006 Objectivist Summer Conference in Boston, MA.Like what you hear?  Be sure to share!  Got Questions or hot topics you want to hear Yaron address?  Email Yaron at  AskYaron@YaronBrookShow.com.Continue the discussions anywhere on line by using #YaronBrookShow. Connect with Yaron via Tweet @YaronBrook or follow him on Facebook @ybrook and YouTube (/YaronBrook) where the Facebook Live videos of the BTR shows are now available for your viewing pleasure. 

Today, America faces an enemy that most of our political leaders fear to name. This enemy brought down the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11; it bombed Madrid and London; it has motivated much of the Iraqi insurgency. Our enemy is more than murderous, suicidal terrorists. It's Islamic totalitarianism, a lethal ideology calling for holy war against infidels.In this course, Dr. Brook analyzes the origins and historical development of Islamic totalitarianism. He examines its foundation in Koranic teachings; its roots in the Muslim Brotherhood movement in Egypt dating back to 1928; its expansion throughout the Middle East with the aid of Saudi oil money; its political triumph in the Iranian Revolution; and its ultimate spread throughout the entire world, from Europe to the Far East. The course includes an extended discussion by Dr. Brook of the tenets of Islamic totalitarianism, the crucial factors that have made it possible (most notably, the intellectual weakness of the West) and the proper methods for defeating it.This course was recorded at the 2006 Objectivist Summer Conference in Boston, MA.Like what you hear?  Be sure to share!  Got Questions or hot topics you want to hear Yaron address?  Email Yaron at  AskYaron@YaronBrookShow.com.Continue the discussions anywhere on line using #YaronBrookShow. Connect with Yaron via Tweet @YaronBrook or follow him on Facebook @ybrook and YouTube (/YaronBrook) where the Facebook Live videos of the BTR shows are now available for your viewing pleasure. 

The reading of a passage from the Koran at Glasgow's St Mary's Cathedral during its Epiphany Mass earlier in the year caused an almighty row. The verses, which were read out by a local Muslim student, denied the divinity of Jesus and brought a wave of criticism and social media threats, which prompted a police investigation. Most people agree that interfaith dialogue is a good thing, but interfaith crossovers within a worship setting risk causing great offense. Why is interfaith worship so controversial, particularly if the intention is to deepen friendships between local faith communities? How can churches, mosques and temples steer a safe course? Robert Beckford discusses interfaith worship with Rev Anthea Ballam, an interfaith minister and priest; Rev Dr Gavin Ashenden, an Anglican priest and theologian; and Shayk Sohaib Sayeed, a Koranic scholar and a chaplain at the University of Edinburgh. Producer: Dan Tierney Series producer: Amanda Hancox.

The reading of a passage from the Koran at Glasgow's St Mary's Cathedral during its Epiphany Mass earlier in the year caused an almighty row. The verses, which were read out by a local Muslim student, denied the divinity of Jesus and brought a wave of criticism and social media threats, which prompted a police investigation. Most people agree that interfaith dialogue is a good thing, but interfaith crossovers within a worship setting risk causing great offense. Why is interfaith worship so controversial, particularly if the intention is to deepen friendships between local faith communities? How can churches, mosques and temples steer a safe course? Robert Beckford discusses interfaith worship with Rev Anthea Ballam, an interfaith minister and priest; Rev Dr Gavin Ashenden, an Anglican priest and theologian; and Shayk Sohaib Sayeed, a Koranic scholar and a chaplain at the University of Edinburgh. Producer: Dan Tierney Series producer: Amanda Hancox.

This message give an overview of the story of Joseph from a Biblical and Koranic perspective. Comparisons are made between the rejection of Jesus and the rejection of Joseph

Dr. Bazian is co-founder of Zaytuna College, an innovative Muslim liberal arts college in Berkeley and the first accredited Muslim undergraduate college in the U.S. He is also senior lecturer in Depts. of Near Eastern and Ethnic Studies at UC Berkeley.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. Speaker 2:No one's listening to method to the madness. At Biweekly Public Affairs show on k a l ex Berkeley celebrating bay area innovators. Today you see Berkeley Student Anna Sterling interviews Dr Houghton Bosnian cofounder of say Tuna College, [00:00:30] the first accredited Muslim college in the United States where he teaches Islamic law and theology. He's also senior lecturer in Near Eastern Studies and ethnic studies here at UC Berkeley. Speaker 3:Okay. Speaker 1:Welcome to the show Dr. Horton Bosnian. We're here today to talk about the Tuna College, which is here in Berkeley, [00:01:00] uh, the first accredited Muslim college in the United States. What was the impetus for starting the college? Speaker 4:Thank you for having me first, um, to the show, the impetus for the college cam as a result of the increasing a number of Muslim communities both here in the bay area and across the country, and the need to address the multifaceted challenges that are meeting the communities from, uh, [00:01:30] the growing number of centers that require, uh, individuals who are trained both in Islamic tradition, but also aware of the various, uh, issues that come out of the, uh, American context and living within such a rabid, fast paced society. Uh, so the impetus for it is, uh, comes out from really addressing this vast need. Second aspect is that the ability of religious leaders and leaders to come from [00:02:00] abroad, uh, was increasingly, uh, very challenging in terms of attempt to meet the needs. Uh, and I think this is also a normative process that other religious communities historically have, uh, been through. Speaker 4:The Catholics used to get there, uh, ministers and priests from, uh, Ireland or from Italy. And as the patterns of immigration settlements and second generation, third generation, uh, the need was outstripping the ability [00:02:30] to provide them, bring individuals from, uh, abroad as well as the fact that individuals were born in this country required a person who could come in with an understanding of what are the particular needs that might not be transferable from other countries, whether it's Italy or Ireland at the time and for the Muslim community. Likewise, uh, that was something that they were facing Speaker 1:and it started out as a seminary originally and then became a Muslim college, Speaker 4:[00:03:00] a Liberal Arts College. What's the mix there? Why was that move important? Initially we were thinking about the seminary in order to train individuals in a seminary type of a setting with the specifically religious focus exclusively. But as we looked at where the community's at, the top of training that is needed to have individuals finish a seminary degree, which is a graduate degree. [00:03:30] We felt that the prerequisites almost are four to five years in the making and are a pipeline of individuals who might come into a very narrowly structured a seminary program would be a challenge considering where we are at in terms of the United States. So we had to step back and think of a college with a liberal arts degree. And then from that we hope that students who graduate, we'll rotate a number of fields [00:04:00] and one of the fields that they might go into, it will be a seminary type, whether to go to GTU, Hartford seminary or some of the other seminaries around the country. Speaker 4:And also in the hope for us in the future to have a master phd program where students who want to be trained in a seminary setting can do so under the umbrella of the GTU Gray with theological union. So we had to step back in order for us to move forward and stepping back by setting up a this liberal arts [00:04:30] degree, we need students who have a strong hold in the Arabic language. So our students now have to finish five years of Arabic. So once they go into a seminary or graduate degree, they already have the prerequisites and they don't have to start from scratch. So that's the a shift in the strategy, not in the shift in what we are hoping to accomplish with a small subset of the graduates. And it's not open to just Muslims, it's open to everyone. Anyone who's interested in having [00:05:00] a liberal arts degree is welcome and hopefully when we get to the master phd track, likewise, anyone who wants to have a quality education is welcome. Speaker 4:I think we're at 50 55% women, 45% men. We're having some interest from Christian colleges that are interested in having a way to dialogue but also as a way to have education where they could send their students in there. So I think this will come. We had actually a a conference between our students and their students. So I think in our relationship [00:05:30] with GTU has been great. All of the nine different denominations at GTU have embraced us now with the two buildings that we own. We're both GTU on buildings that they sold to us. PSR sold us the LACAN building, which is at the corner and then the Prentice Kent School of Theology Corner, uh, building that yellow corner building Euclid, they did not bought it on the market. They actually up a project say we want to sell the building. You got to love Franciscans. Yeah. So, [00:06:00] so they sold us a building. Speaker 4:They invited at one and then when they, when we signed the contract, they had a, a dinner for us and one of the priests gave a lecture on Islam and on the wall they had a photograph of medical idol of Egypt and San Francis embracing because the assumption is that St Francis was one of the key figures that ended the crusades because he finished, he went and visited the medical idle in Egypt at the time and then came back to the pool. And as the pool to provide [00:06:30] a way for people to repent without having to go on a crusade. And that's what's the, a Franciscan sec developed out of San Francis visit to Egypt and his encounter with AMAG. So they had that post or that picture on the wall and they gave it as a gift to us as well. I didn't know that St Francis is my favorite saint. He's kind of like within the Catholic digital, he's accredited of shifting because without the possibility of having to go to some other place [00:07:00] to, to cleanse yourself and repent, then people were still being sent to the Crusades. So St Francis upon returning from Egypt, he actually asked for that to be the way. Yeah. And the pope gave him that. Speaker 1:Um, one thing that I thought was interesting on the website is it mention, it had a list of perennial faculty sort of citing, you know, a long list of Muslim thinkers and intellectuals. What's the purpose of sort of connecting to that past? What do you sort of hope to convey to the students of today living in Berkeley, [00:07:30] in the bay area? In the center Speaker 4:liberal education or Liberal Arts degree is rooted in the great books of the past. And therefore, even though that in our today fast paced culture, it seems that you are the center of the world. Uh, so we're trying to say that yes, you're the center of the world in one dimension, but everything that you think it's in, you has a long deray to it. Uh, all the way back from the Chinese words to Indian words, to the Greek, to the Romans, [00:08:00] to the Muslim civilization and so on. So it is rooted in linking back to the great traditions in great intellectual contribution, and then to see where these contributions are at by thinking of the perennial faculty or prenatal contribution, and then where you could add your own distinctive aspect upon or building upon what was done in the past. And I think it's a similar to the Catholic tradition. If you say, look at St Mary's College or uh, uh, San John's [00:08:30] and so on, the great books tradition is rooted in there. So in a similar way, we want to convey that there is a tradition within the Islamic pedagogical approach to think of these great books and how to link the students to that tradition Speaker 1:standing on the shoulders of giants. Absolutely. I noticed that this right now the college is around 50 to 60 students, about 60 students, just other Speaker 4:25 for this coming fall. Speaker 1:So it was sort of a tight knit community. What role does the larger [00:09:00] Muslim non Muslim community play at the college? Speaker 4:When we were thinking about where to locate the college, there were a number of possibilities. We had literally offers to go some other places around the country where the land would be almost free if, uh, actually they'll pay you to take it. Uh, we had a location where they had a full college set up with a gym, a swimming pool, housing that was for sale from a to Z. Literally youth pick up the key [00:09:30] and you have a college ready made. Uh, but you know, I assure you it was not one of those Trump's colleges. That was then what we were thinking is that to create a college, you need a hospitable environment. And in looking at many of us, the three founders were here in the bay area, in Mom's age, Hamza myself, that if you want to create a college from scratch, you have two major institutions in the bay area at Berkeley and Stanford. Speaker 4:And therefore by boarding the college next to a major [00:10:00] university, you get the synergy that is there as a result of the intellectual, uh, environment that is there. It also though is an existing Muslim student population that is at the surrounding university in Berkeley. I think approximately 800 Muslim students give or take are here. And then you also have a large Muslim population in the bay area. The study that I did on the bay area Muslim community is about 250,000 with some nine 90 centers in the region. So it is really [00:10:30] having a major intellectual hub in the bay area that is hospitable, that is embracing of diversity and inclusiveness. And that made the choice of the bay area, uh, a foregone conclusion to having the college located in here. Uh, the challenge once again is, uh, we have to compete with Twitter, Facebook, and Google in terms of prices of real estate and being able to really have the buildings are needed. Uh, one is to acquire [00:11:00] building, but also how to expand in the distant future. The major challenge is the cost effectiveness is very high, but once again, location, location, location, and that was one of the major factors. Speaker 1:And what's the average as a tuna student if there is, when are they typically from the bay area or Speaker 4:no, we're getting students from nationally, I think, uh, depends different class, uh, enrollment differ. But in general we get students from across the country, from Florida, from Michigan, from New York, uh, [00:11:30] from New Jersey, Ohio, California. We do have a segment of it. So it's, uh, really a plus section of the Muslim community in the United States. Speaker 1:And what do you hope that they, once they graduate, that they sort of put out into the world, what sort of skills do you hope they, that you've given them? Oh, our mission really is Speaker 4:about graduating morally committed leaders that grounded in Islamic tradition and conversant in the modern contemporary occurrence in our society. So what we want is for them [00:12:00] to lead in whichever place ever career track that they choose. We don't train students for a career. We try. Our education is a commitment to lifelong learning and for them to commit themselves to education as a value in itself. That that is the end. Education is an end by itself and not to think of education and utilitarian function. So we definitely, while we want them to be engaged in society in whichever field and profession [00:12:30] that is not the end of the degree, but rather it should be the beginning of their contribution to society and want them to also act morally and ethically in the society. Uh, so that's what we want them to be. That they are reflective of the grounding that we're giving them in the institution. Speaker 1:I think that idea of the morally committed leader is very interesting. I know that you, you founded the Islamophobia Research and documentation project here at Berkeley, as well as the Islamophobia Studies Journal [00:13:00] as well as you've also contributed a number of opinion columns, you know, about Trump and, and other issues surrounding Islamophobia with this rise of Islamophobic rhetoric, particularly on the campaign trail. What sort of shifts have any have happened at the college to sort of face these new crises? Speaker 4:Well, I don't think there is a shift in the college because I think our curriculum and education we offer, Eh, it will have to stand the test of time, whether [00:13:30] it's Trump or any other person that wants to use racism, discrimination, otherwise nation, uh, want to build a walls on the ground as well as intellectual walls. Our degree will stand the test of time. Now we are aware that we are in a highly tense period where a particular segment of the American society in particular white working class are being stoked into racism, [00:14:00] into discrimination, into pointing their finger at an other ad is the source of their, a loss of economic opportunity that their standard of living has declined, that they're outsourcing of their jobs have been undertaken earnestly from the 70s, 80s on ongoing. So instead of confronting the real issues and who is responsible, who was on the driver's seat, uh, the blame has been stoked strategically so as a wedge issue [00:14:30] to blame on the one hand Latinos that they are the ones that are undermining our economic, uh, opportunities. Speaker 4:Looking at the Muslim community and saying that, uh, this war on terrorism is basically not making us a strong looking at black life matters and the African American community in essence, by blaming them in really racist undertone, uh, by speaking that they are not carrying their weight, that a, there are depending on social welfare. All these are [00:15:00] buzzwords that are using cultural nuances to push a racist discourse and to try to imagine America of the past, uh, that is not tenable and trying to maintain a particular cluster of communities in the u s in a power at a time where the grounds have shifted tremendously. So we are aware of those. And the challenge for us is on the one hand, to document the period we are in terms of Islamophobia and what it's taken, but also how [00:15:30] to develop what I considered to be the new civil and human rights movement in this country that will reclaim the high ground and at the same time to undo the stalking of the white middle class and to actually develop a coalition that will address the largest segment and to point out what are the reasons of the challenges that we are having. Speaker 4:What are the challenges of outsourcing? What are the challenges of the 1% that is basically [00:16:00] running all the way to the bank many times over and then getting, being rescued by the collective taxpayers. So that's the, I would say if there's a single or challenge that is the challenge is how to create a new society, a base on a board that will hold everyone, uh, without anybody trying to book, uh, holes on the bottom of the hole for the ship to sink. And that's how we see the circumstances. And when, as a today's position and how have your students reacted? Well, they're engaged, they're engaged [00:16:30] both in terms of, part of our program requires that the students have to undertake, uh, community service hours and part of community service hours have to be in how they give back and contribute. And on the one hand we have an alternative spring break. Speaker 4:So for example, the number of students went to Ferguson to volunteer to work with habitat for humanity. Another group in the alternative spring break went to Utah. And uh, when, uh, with the National Forest Service [00:17:00] to plan tree and work on the environment. So they're engaged in ways where they could be making the difference as they are developing their or sharpen their intellectual skills. So in essence, they are proactively engaged in order to make a difference and build the bridges that are needed for an imagining of a different America that is inclusive, that is embracing, that also looks for the best interest [00:17:30] of those who have left behind and have fallen through the cracks. And I think that's what we want our students to undertake. Speaker 1:And I saw that recently, last March Zaytuna received the first accredited Muslim college in the u s so what does that mean for the college? Speaker 4:The institution of higher learning have an accreditation. And uh, from the first day we started this project, we wanted the institution to be accredited, in essence, to be admitted and invited to [00:18:00] the diverse academic table of higher education and for a Muslim college to receive accreditation and to sit at the table and offer our own ideas in conversation and in collaboration with other institutions of higher learning. And that process is a, we took it as a challenge for us. And also another opportunity because part of accreditation, you do a self study, you look at your curriculum, you look at your institutions, you look at your financial capacity reporting [00:18:30] and there is about 37 different criteria that you have to fulfill. And we took it seriously that this is an opportunity for us to assess where are we at. And uh, we were engaged with the last, there was an association forcing the schools and colleges, same institution that accredits UC Berkeley. Speaker 4:So we were the fastest institution to begin the accreditation process and achieve accreditation, uh, by the team, the visiting team. In one visit we were able to get accreditation, uh, even UC Berkeley [00:19:00] had to go many times over and some other colleges we were able to achieve it. And, uh, both our curriculum, our, uh, institutional capacity, our finances are very sound. One question that the accreditation committee asked us time and time again because many institution want to get accreditation so they would be able to apply for federal financial aid for students. Now we have made a commitment institutionally that no students will graduate with debt. So we are committed [00:19:30] to students graduating debt free. And as founders we go out and actually appeal to the Muslim community who had part of their financial wellbeing is to give a charitable contribution the terms the cat. So we have been able to develop as a cat fund that provides needy students and any students that have a challenge financially to provide them the resources. Speaker 4:So we actually, when they asked us, are you looking to get federal financial aid? I said, that's really, we [00:20:00] are, we don't want to apply for a federal financial aid. We want our students to graduate that free. We don't believe that you have to be in debt from the cradle to the grave. And I think that is something that we have to offer both institutionally, but also give it as an example of how education can be an avenue for individuals and society to liberate itself from the bondage of financial burden. And I think increasingly our education has become a financial burden where an average [00:20:30] undergrad graduate with $97,000 in debt. And if you go to a master's or phd, it could go into the hundreds of thousand and uh, God forbid you go to the medical school or if you want to train as a lawyer, you actually comes up with maybe 300 to $400,000 in debt if you go to laptop school, which essentially incentivize those individuals who will come out of these institutions to immediately try to stick it to anyone financially. And as such, you lose the bonds of the society [00:21:00] at the foundational level. So that's something that we are committed to it. And I think the accreditation team was taken back because if not every private institution depends heavily on federal financial aid and therefore what you have is a private institution that is uh, loading the students with debt as a way to run the institution. I think ethically and morally that is a wrong approach to higher education in general. Speaker 1:And right now as a tuna, the only Muslim college in the u s or has it sort of inspired [00:21:30] at least ideas for other ones, Speaker 4:it's what we were the only accredited institutions. There is a number of projects that we're hoping that they are on their road to accreditation. There's the American Slavic College in Chicago. They had been longer in place but they went dormant and they'd been back in attempting to get their accreditation process. They have filed, we already sent a letter of support to their accreditation. There is a couple of other institution in the early formative stage. Our expectation as the community increases and the numbers, once [00:22:00] again depending on which a study you look at from two and a half to 3 million to about six or 7 million, you take your number as a in terms of what statistical model you use as the community increases. The needs for such institution will rise and I think we will see in the next few years a number of institution joining Zaytuna and that will be very positive for us as well as the institutions that are coming to provide the services for the community. Speaker 1:Creating perhaps [00:22:30] more of a network there. Speaker 4:Absolutely. We're still, we are right now in discussing as a consortium among Muslim institutions that are either applying or attempting to get into an accreditation and I compare it to, once again, I think we're inspired by the Catholic tradition at a time where the Catholics were in this country that they began to invest in higher education. There were less than one and a half percent of the population. They were facing tremendous racism. If you notice some of the literature around building Catholic churches and Catholic [00:23:00] institutions, if you just take the same texts that were written on Catholics and remove the Catholic Church and the Pope and you just insert Islam and Muslim, you don't have to change much of the literature and at the time they were one and a half percent and they did a, I would say a deliberate strategic initiative in investing in higher education as a way to address their needs and now you look around the country. The Catholic institutions are the premier institutions in the country as well as if you look at their a k through 12 [00:23:30] schools as some of the best schools in this country are run by the Catholics. So in this sense a religious communities, I'm making a path and constructing a way for them both to address their own particular needs, but also contributing to shaping society in general is the longstanding tradition within the American society, but also across across the world. Speaker 1:So do you also sort of take that as inspiration for future plans for [inaudible]? What's next for the college? Speaker 4:Once again, the challenge of keeping the college running is the [00:24:00] biggest challenge right now. Uh, we're a 24, seven fundraising, uh, both to run for operation but also to provide all the needs of the students. There's, you know, we work on a five year plan, uh, acquisition of some housing for students. Uh, also possibly housing for faculty as the need to increase our faculty. One of the biggest challenge and once again in the bay area, it's the cost of housing that is making it prohibitive for us to be able to [00:24:30] attract the faculty talent with the cost bases that we have. So that will be another part of our project. And then looking down the line is to begin the project for uh, having the Master Phd Program and we're already in initial conversation with GTU to join as a member school within the GTU. So that's already in the initial stage of conversation. We will be joining having an master of divinity in Islamic Studies and possibly a phd track a few years after that, [00:25:00] joining them in all of the collaborative projects that they have joining the library. So all those are in the drawing boards for the next five years in terms of where are the steps that are needed. Speaker 1:And right now you offer a Ba, an Islamic law theology with an optional honors program. Speaker 4:It's a Ba in liberal arts with a focus on Islamic law and theology. And there is an honor program where students have to take a particular set of additional courses. We also have actually a, an endowment to, [00:25:30] uh, provide in particular women who want to take a stem track, uh, who want to go to medicine and injury. And we actually have an endowment where they could actually take courses here at Berkeley or city college to augment the Ba degree that we're offering. So they, if they want to apply to an engineering or a medical or MCB and so on, they're are able to do that. So that's already on the books and we're able to offer that for students who are coming in. Speaker 1:So in addition to [00:26:00] the Graduate Theological Union GTU, what are other sort of organizations that you're partnering with the sort of strength in the college? Speaker 4:What do we want? Definitely to have a strong relations with UC Berkeley. So that's something that we look forward to. A GTU, a San Francisco State University, Santa Clara University. Uh, we're working also with a ucs f for the chaplaincy program. So some of our students want to be chaplains in the hospitals. So they have a certification program and we're making the link where students can actually, [00:26:30] uh, they need to do about 80 hours of, uh, supervised chaplaincy training in the hospital. So that is open for them. Uh, in that way we have a relationship with Hartford seminary. So students want to finish from here, can go to Harvard seminary. We have a number of Miranda of understanding with the universities in Turkey. Uh, we had a visit from the, uh, uh, wife of the prime minister of Malaysia who are also likewise looking at cooperation in terms of higher education and [00:27:00] where can we engage in helping, uh, some of their projects. Speaker 4:So once again, these are opportunities that will, uh, continue to expand and we're looking forward to continue to open doors of possibilities for our students and our institution. America has, it's, it's definitely open many possibilities and opportunities for people. So Islam and education go hand in hand. The first word in, uh, in the Koranic revelation was read and therefore there is no such [00:27:30] thing, at least from our perspective, you cannot have an Islam without having it being founded upon education. And therefore we celebrate the history in the past of a Islamic contribution, whether it's in initiating and building libraries. Uh, the notion of a public library is actually originates from the Islamic culture and Islamic civilization because it was such a commitment to public access and universal access to education. So I think being in here, being in the United States [00:28:00] and the impact and the importance of education in the modern age that we can see being in this country, being a Muslim without actually taking to uplift education, but also be a corrective because increasingly education has become corporatized where your knowledge is added to what kind of cubicle you can get. And I think that has, for me, that's a very problematic construct. Not that we don't peep, we don't need individuals to function and create [00:28:30] and work creatively in the economy. But that is not the purpose of education. That's what you do is not that what you know. And I think for us Zaytuna College, if it can help move in a corrective way, the emphasis that we have in education, then I think our impact and contribution will be monumental. Speaker 1:So how can anyone get in touch with Zaytuna or possibly apply? Speaker 4:Well, we're uh, available online so you could access our website, www dot [inaudible] dot edu and [00:29:00] we're also on Twitter, on Facebook. And you could also reach me myself, a hot and on.com on my own website as well as Twitter. And hopefully if, if you would like to be in a place that celebrates education and both knowledge in a triumphant position, uh, Daytona might be the place for you and we will come you to come and visit us for no other reason. That's [inaudible] Speaker 1:and that's a tuna college@zaytuna.edu. Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Dr Bozzi on for being on the show. Thank you [00:29:30] for having, you've been listening to method to the madness to biweekly public affairs show on Speaker 2:k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Tune in again in two weeks at the same time. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

AUDIO TRANSCRIPT [Note: This is a verbatim transcript of a spoken podcast. However, I have added notes like this one to clarify controversial points.—SH] I was going to do a podcast on a series of questions, but I got so many questions on the same topic that I think I’m just going to do a single response here, and we’ll do an #AskMeAnything podcast next time. The question I’ve now received in many forms goes something like this: Why is it that you never criticize Israel? Why is it that you never criticize Judaism? Why is it that you always take the side of the Israelis over that of the Palestinians? Now, this is an incredibly boring and depressing question for a variety of reasons. The first, is that I have criticized both Israel and Judaism. What seems to have upset many people is that I’ve kept some sense of proportion. There are something like 15 million Jews on earth at this moment; there are a hundred times as many Muslims. I’ve debated rabbis who, when I have assumed that they believe in a God that can hear our prayers, they stop me mid-sentence and say, “Why would you think that I believe in a God who can hear prayers?” So there are rabbis—conservative rabbis—who believe in a God so elastic as to exclude every concrete claim about Him—and therefore, nearly every concrete demand upon human behavior. And there are millions of Jews, literally millions among the few million who exist, for whom Judaism is very important, and yet they are atheists. They don’t believe in God at all. This is actually a position you can hold in Judaism, but it’s a total non sequitur in Islam or Christianity. So, when we’re talking about the consequences of irrational beliefs based on scripture, the Jews are the least of the least offenders. But I have said many critical things about Judaism. Let me remind you that parts of Hebrew Bible—books like Leviticus and Exodus and Deuteronomy—are the most repellent, the most sickeningly unethical documents to be found in any religion. They’re worse than the Koran. They’re worse than any part of the New Testament. But the truth is, most Jews recognize this and don’t take these texts seriously. It’s simply a fact that most Jews and most Israelis are not guided by scripture—and that’s a very good thing. Of course, there are some who are. There are religious extremists among Jews. Now, I consider these people to be truly dangerous, and their religious beliefs are as divisive and as unwarranted as the beliefs of devout Muslims. But there are far fewer such people. For those of you who worry that I never say anything critical about Israel: My position on Israel is somewhat paradoxical. There are questions about which I’m genuinely undecided. And there’s something in my position, I think, to offend everyone. So, acknowledging how reckless it is to say anything on this topic, I’m nevertheless going to think out loud about it for a few minutes. I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible. [Note: Read this paragraph again.] Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity. So, if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state. Now, friends of Israel might consider this a rather tepid defense, but it’s the strongest one I’ve got. I think the idea of a religious state is ultimately untenable. [Note: It is worth observing, however, that Israel isn’t “Jewish” in the sense that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are “Muslim.” As my friend Jerry Coyne points out, Israel is actually less religious than the U.S., and it guarantees freedom of religion to its citizens. Israel is not a theocracy, and one could easily argue that its Jewish identity is more cultural than religious. However, if we ask why the Jews wouldn’t move to British Columbia if offered a home there, we can see the role that religion still plays in their thinking.] Needless to say, in defending its territory as a Jewish state, the Israeli government and Israelis themselves have had to do terrible things. They have, as they are now, fought wars against the Palestinians that have caused massive losses of innocent life. More civilians have been killed in Gaza in the last few weeks than militants. That’s not a surprise because Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. Occupying it, fighting wars in it, is guaranteed to get women and children and other noncombatants killed. And there’s probably little question over the course of fighting multiple wars that the Israelis have done things that amount to war crimes. They have been brutalized by this process—that is, made brutal by it. But that is largely the due to the character of their enemies. [Note: I was not giving Israel a pass to commit war crimes. I was making a point about the realities of living under the continuous threat of terrorism and of fighting multiple wars in a confined space.] Whatever terrible things the Israelis have done, it is also true to say that they have used more restraint in their fighting against the Palestinians than we—the Americans, or Western Europeans—have used in any of our wars. They have endured more worldwide public scrutiny than any other society has ever had to while defending itself against aggressors. The Israelis simply are held to a different standard. And the condemnation leveled at them by the rest of the world is completely out of proportion to what they have actually done. [Note: I was not saying that because they are more careful than we have been at our most careless, the Israelis are above criticism. War crimes are war crimes.] It is clear that Israel is losing the PR war and has been for years now. One of the most galling things for outside observers about the current war in Gaza is the disproportionate loss of life on the Palestinian side. This doesn’t make a lot of moral sense. Israel built bomb shelters to protect its citizens. The Palestinians built tunnels through which they could carry out terror attacks and kidnap Israelis. Should Israel be blamed for successfully protecting its population in a defensive war? I don’t think so. [Note: I was not suggesting that the deaths of Palestinian noncombatants are anything less than tragic. But if retaliating against Hamas is bound to get innocents killed, and the Israelis manage to protect their own civilians in the meantime, the loss of innocent life on the Palestinian side is guaranteed to be disproportionate.] But there is no way to look at the images coming out of Gaza—especially of infants and toddlers riddled by shrapnel—and think that this is anything other than a monstrous evil. Insofar as the Israelis are the agents of this evil, it seems impossible to support them. And there is no question that the Palestinians have suffered terribly for decades under the occupation. This is where most critics of Israel appear to be stuck. They see these images, and they blame Israel for killing and maiming babies. They see the occupation, and they blame Israel for making Gaza a prison camp. I would argue that this is a kind of moral illusion, borne of a failure to look at the actual causes of this conflict, as well as of a failure to understand the intentions of the people on either side of it. [Note: I was not saying that the horror of slain children is a moral illusion; nor was I minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians under the occupation. I was claiming that Israel is not primarily to blame for all this suffering.] The truth is that there is an obvious, undeniable, and hugely consequential moral difference between Israel and her enemies. The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them. The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” This is a political document. We are talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of Palestinians. [Note: Yes, I know that not every Palestinian supports Hamas, but enough do to have brought them to power. Hamas is not a fringe group.] The discourse in the Muslim world about Jews is utterly shocking. Not only is there Holocaust denial—there’s Holocaust denial that then asserts that we will do it for real if given the chance. The only thing more obnoxious than denying the Holocaust is to say that it should have happened; it didn’t happen, but if we get the chance, we will accomplish it. There are children’s shows in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere that teach five-year-olds about the glories of martyrdom and about the necessity of killing Jews. And this gets to the heart of the moral difference between Israel and her enemies. And this is something I discussed in The End of Faith. To see this moral difference, you have to ask what each side would do if they had the power to do it. What would the Jews do to the Palestinians if they could do anything they wanted? Well, we know the answer to that question, because they can do more or less anything they want. The Israeli army could kill everyone in Gaza tomorrow. So what does that mean? Well, it means that, when they drop a bomb on a beach and kill four Palestinian children, as happened last week, this is almost certainly an accident. They’re not targeting children. They could target as many children as they want. Every time a Palestinian child dies, Israel edges ever closer to becoming an international pariah. So the Israelis take great pains not to kill children and other noncombatants. [Note: The word “so” in the previous sentence was regrettable and misleading. I didn’t mean to suggest that safeguarding its reputation abroad would be the only (or even primary) reason for Israel to avoid killing children. However, the point stands: Even if you want to attribute the basest motives to Israel, it is clearly in her self-interest not to kill Palestinian children.] Now, is it possible that some Israeli soldiers go berserk under pressure and wind up shooting into crowds of rock-throwing children? Of course. You will always find some soldiers acting this way in the middle of a war. But we know that this isn’t the general intent of Israel. We know the Israelis do not want to kill non-combatants, because they could kill as many as they want, and they’re not doing it. What do we know of the Palestinians? What would the Palestinians do to the Jews in Israel if the power imbalance were reversed? Well, they have told us what they would do. For some reason, Israel’s critics just don’t want to believe the worst about a group like Hamas, even when it declares the worst of itself. We’ve already had a Holocaust and several other genocides in the 20th century. People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen. There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could. Would every Palestinian support genocide? Of course not. But vast numbers of them—and of Muslims throughout the world—would. Needless to say, the Palestinians in general, not just Hamas, have a history of targeting innocent noncombatants in the most shocking ways possible. They’ve blown themselves up on buses and in restaurants. They’ve massacred teenagers. They’ve murdered Olympic athletes. They now shoot rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. And again, the charter of their government in Gaza explicitly tells us that they want to annihilate the Jews—not just in Israel but everywhere. [Note: Again, I realize that not all Palestinians support Hamas. Nor am I discounting the degree to which the occupation, along with collateral damage suffered in war, has fueled Palestinian rage. But Palestinian terrorism (and Muslim anti-Semitism) is what has made peaceful coexistence thus far impossible.] The truth is that everything you need to know about the moral imbalance between Israel and her enemies can be understood on the topic of human shields. Who uses human shields? Well, Hamas certainly does. They shoot their rockets from residential neighborhoods, from beside schools, and hospitals, and mosques. Muslims in other recent conflicts, in Iraq and elsewhere, have also used human shields. They have laid their rifles on the shoulders of their own children and shot from behind their bodies. Consider the moral difference between using human shields and being deterred by them. That is the difference we’re talking about. The Israelis and other Western powers are deterred, however imperfectly, by the Muslim use of human shields in these conflicts, as we should be. It is morally abhorrent to kill noncombatants if you can avoid it. It’s certainly abhorrent to shoot through the bodies of children to get at your adversary. But take a moment to reflect on how contemptible this behavior is. And understand how cynical it is. The Muslims are acting on the assumption—the knowledge, in fact—that the infidels with whom they fight, the very people whom their religion does nothing but vilify, will be deterred by their use of Muslim human shields. They consider the Jews the spawn of apes and pigs—and yet they rely on the fact that they don’t want to kill Muslim noncombatants. [Note: The term “Muslims” in this paragraph means “Muslim combatants” of the sort that Western forces have encountered in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. The term “jihadists” would have been too narrow, but I was not suggesting that all Muslims support the use of human shields or are anti-Semitic, at war with the West, etc.] Now imagine reversing the roles here. Imagine how fatuous—indeed comical it would be—for the Israelis to attempt to use human shields to deter the Palestinians. Some claim that they have already done this. There are reports that Israeli soldiers have occasionally put Palestinian civilians in front of them as they’ve advanced into dangerous areas. That’s not the use of human shields we’re talking about. It’s egregious behavior. No doubt it constitutes a war crime. But Imagine the Israelis holding up their own women and children as human shields. Of course, that would be ridiculous. The Palestinians are trying to kill everyone. Killing women and children is part of the plan. Reversing the roles here produces a grotesque Monty Python skit. If you’re going to talk about the conflict in the Middle East, you have to acknowledge this difference. I don’t think there’s any ethical disparity to be found anywhere that is more shocking or consequential than this. And the truth is, this isn’t even the worst that jihadists do. Hamas is practically a moderate organization, compared to other jihadist groups. There are Muslims who have blown themselves up in crowds of children—again, Muslim children—just to get at the American soldiers who were handing out candy to them. They have committed suicide bombings, only to send another bomber to the hospital to await the casualities—where they then blow up all the injured along with the doctors and nurses trying to save their lives. Every day that you could read about an Israeli rocket gone astray or Israeli soldiers beating up an innocent teenager, you could have read about ISIS in Iraq crucifying people on the side of the road, Christians and Muslims. Where is the outrage in the Muslim world and on the Left over these crimes? Where are the demonstrations, 10,000 or 100,000 deep, in the capitals of Europe against ISIS? If Israel kills a dozen Palestinians by accident, the entire Muslim world is inflamed. God forbid you burn a Koran, or write a novel vaguely critical of the faith. And yet Muslims can destroy their own societies—and seek to destroy the West—and you don’t hear a peep. [Note: Of course, I’m aware that many Muslims condemn groups like ISIS. My point is that we don’t see massive protests against global jihadism—even though it targets Muslims more than anyone else—and we do see such protests over things like the Danish cartoons.] So, it seems to me, that you have to side with Israel here. You have one side which if it really could accomplish its aims would simply live peacefully with its neighbors, and you have another side which is seeking to implement a seventh century theocracy in the Holy Land. There’s no peace to be found between those incompatible ideas. That doesn’t mean you can’t condemn specific actions on the part of the Israelis. And, of course, acknowledging the moral disparity between Israel and her enemies doesn’t give us any solution to the problem of Israel’s existence in the Middle East. [Note: I was not suggesting that Israel’s actions are above criticism or that their recent incursion into Gaza was necessarily justified. Nor was I saying that the status quo, wherein the Palestinians remain stateless, should be maintained. And I certainly wasn’t expressing support for the building of settlements on contested land (as I made clear below). By “siding with Israel,” I am simply recognizing that they are not the primary aggressors in this conflict. They are, rather, responding to aggression—and at a terrible cost.] Again, granted, there’s some percentage of Jews who are animated by their own religious hysteria and their own prophesies. Some are awaiting the Messiah on contested land. Yes, these people are willing to sacrifice the blood of their own children for the glory of God. But, for the most part, they are not representative of the current state of Judaism or the actions of the Israeli government. And it is how Israel deals with these people—their own religious lunatics—that will determine whether they can truly hold the moral high ground. And Israel can do a lot more than it has to disempower them. It can cease to subsidize the delusions of the Ultra-Orthodox, and it can stop building settlements on contested land. [Note: Read that again. And, yes, I understand that not all settlers are Ultra-Orthodox.] These incompatible religious attachments to this land have made it impossible for Muslims and Jews to negotiate like rational human beings, and they have made it impossible for them to live in peace. But the onus is still more on the side of the Muslims here. Even on their worst day, the Israelis act with greater care and compassion and self-criticism than Muslim combatants have anywhere, ever. And again, you have to ask yourself, what do these groups want? What would they accomplish if they could accomplish anything? What would the Israelis do if they could do what they want? They would live in peace with their neighbors, if they had neighbors who would live in peace with them. They would simply continue to build out their high tech sector and thrive. [Note: Some might argue that they would do more than this—e.g. steal more Palestinian land. But apart from the influence of Jewish extremism (which I condemn), Israel’s continued appropriation of land has more than a little to do with her security concerns. Absent Palestinian terrorism and Muslim anti-Semitism, we could be talking about a “one-state solution,” and the settlements would be moot.] What do groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and even Hamas want? They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want to stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about. This is not a trivial difference. And yet judging from the level of condemnation that Israel now receives, you would think the difference ran the other way. This kind of confusion puts all of us in danger. This is the great story of our time. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we are going to be confronted by people who don’t want to live peacefully in a secular, pluralistic world, because they are desperate to get to Paradise, and they are willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness along the way. The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It’s just that some of us haven’t realized it yet.

The Koran claims that Jesus did not die on the cross. Mohammed Bahmanpour of the Islamic College in London defends the Koranic view that although "it was made to appear to them" that he died, in fact he was substituted by another. Jay Smith is a Christian evangelist to Muslims in London and brings to bear Biblical and other historical witnesses to the crucifixion.  They debate the issue and whether the Koran or the New Testament is to be trusted as a revelation of God. Includes listener interactions with the guests. Jay will be speaking on "How do I respond to Islam? - 3 questions on God, Jesus and the Trinity that Muslims ask" at Unbelievable?: The Conference, Sat 14 May.  Book your place http://www.premier.org.uk/answers For more Christian/non-Christian debate visit http://www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable or get the MP3 podcast http://ondemand.premier.org.uk/unbelievable/AudioFeed.aspx or Via Itunes If you enjoyed this programme you may also enjoy: Unbelievable? 4 Apr 2009 Muslim Shabir Ally & Christian Tony Costa - "Did Jesus rise from the Dead?" - A Muslim/Christian Dialogue Hear Jay in action in the Documentary "Up the Ladder in Hyde Park" in our Feature section - http://www.premierradio.org.uk/shows/saturday/unbelievable/Features.aspx Join the discussion at the Premier Community http://www.premiercommunity.org.uk/group/unbelievable and via Facebook and Twitter

Most Muslims believe the Koran was dictated by God--word for word, in Arabic-- to Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel. For years Koranic scholars (even in western, secular institutions) have been reluctant to challenge this notion. But now a handful of academics are applying the same critical methods used in biblical studies to the study of the Koran. Koranic criticism is still in its infancy but scholars are already discovering facts which radically challenge the traditional account. Ibn Warraq, author of "Why I am Not a Muslim" and "What Does the Koran Really Say" joins us on the show to discuss some of these findings. The doubtcasters would like to encourage RD listeners to donate what they can to S.H.A.R.E (Skeptics and Humanists Aid and Relief Effort) to help the victims of the recent earthquake in Haiti. Visit www.doubtcast.org for details.