Podcasts about tech humanist

Kate O'Neill, globally recognized tech humanist, strategic advisor to Fortune 500 companies, and author of What Matters Next joins the show for a wide-ranging conversation on AI, ethics, and what it truly means to lead with humanity in the age of intelligent machines. We discuss her early days as one of Netflix's first 100 employees to frame what "future readiness" looks like for organizations today and why the same proactive vision that let Netflix outmaneuver Blockbuster is exactly what's missing from AI governance right now. Together they unpack the philosophical divide between policy, politics, and the dangers of letting "hope lead strategy" in workforce decisions and offer government and enterprise leaders a grounded, human-centered lens for navigating AI, the most transformative technology of our time.

“AI companies are taking advantage of our natural tendency to ascribe an inner life to our interlocutors. They profit when you think the chatbot cares.” — Kate O'Neill If we don't like someone, we call them a fascist. And if we like them, we say they are a humanist. The F and H words. Both meaningless in our sloppy, bot-infested age. But maybe I'm just a cranky anti-humanist. Even anti-human — whatever that means. Or maybe I'm being harsh (moi?). Humanism certainly is all the rage in our AI age. Corporate consultant Kate O'Neill likes the word so much that she has built her brand around it. The self-styled “Tech Humanist” is the author of Tech Humanist, the host of the Tech Humanist Show, and a frequent speaker on the TED circuit. So how to use the H word without sounding like Claude or ChatGPT? O'Neill argues that what makes us human is our quest for meaning. The M word. That's what distinguishes us from the bots. But as Kazuo Ishiguro warns in Klara and the Sun, we are fast arriving at a point when the bots are better than us at extracting meaning from the world. So did Kate O'Neill pass the Keen Test (reverse of Turing)? Did the Tech Humanist say anything that would have eluded Claude? Or have we already arrived at Ishiguro's bleak terminus where the bots are more skilled at infusing the H word with meaning than we are? Five Takeaways •       What Is Tech Humanism? Aligning Business and Human Outcomes: O'Neill's definition: technology shapes human experiences at scale, and it does so almost always in service of a business objective that is accelerating its advance. The purpose of tech humanism is to find the business objectives that need to be met and align them with human outcomes that are rewarding and fulfilling for people. This means using technology to amplify the alignment between business and human outcomes — rather than simply making the business more successful. It is, she acknowledges, not the habit of most business leaders. But it is a habit that can be developed. •       You Sound Like a Bot: Andrew's Challenge: Andrew's opening challenge: O'Neill sounds exactly like a well-prompted language model. She uses the h word (humanism) and the m word (meaning). What is she saying that Claude couldn't say? O'Neill's answer: meaning is not a word but a phenomenon. It is what emerges from the combination of embodied sensory experience and language — the way humans encode meaningful experiences with language in their brains. As far as we know, this is a uniquely human capability. Machines process information statistically. Humans process it meaningfully. That distinction is, she argues, precisely the gap that matters. •       AI Companies Profit When You Think the Chatbot Cares: O'Neill's sharpest observation: we are constituted to look for inner life in the things we interact with. We give nicknames to our cars and talk to our toasters. At this early stage of interacting with large language models, it is entirely natural to assume there is a consciousness on the other side. The problem: AI companies are actively taking advantage of that natural tendency. They profit from it. The more people believe the chatbot genuinely understands them, the more they use it. That manipulation is real and it is working. Developing critical thinking about AI interactions is, O'Neill argues, now a form of self-defence. •       The Intersection of Meaning and Scale: O'Neill's key contribution to the tech humanism conversation: the problem with technology is not technology itself but the scale at which it operates. A single interaction with a biased algorithm is annoying. A billion such interactions, aggregated and accelerated by a business objective, reshapes society. The tech humanist's job is to ensure that when we deploy technology at scale, the outcomes remain aligned with human meaning rather than with the extraction of human attention. This, she says, is both a business problem and a civilisational one. The two are, in her view, inseparable. •       A Message to 2126: What We Valued About Ourselves: Andrew asks O'Neill: it is 2126. Humans and machines are indistinguishable. What do you say to whoever is listening? O'Neill's answer: hello from the past. What we valued about ourselves was our ability to understand each other — intellectually, emotionally, sympathetically, empathetically. We could come into our interactions by holding space for what the other person feels and cares about. And we could, even when we disagreed, create more shared understanding by virtue of having the conversation. That is a beautiful thing, she says, whether we are distinctly human and distinctly machine or increasingly a blend of both. About the Guest Kate O'Neill is founder and CEO of KO Insights and is widely known as “the Tech Humanist.” She was one of the first 100 employees at Netflix and has held roles at Toshiba and founded the analytics firm [meta]marketer. She is named to the Thinkers50 global ranking of top management thinkers. She is the author of What Matters Next: A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That's Moving Too Fast (Wiley, January 2025), Tech Humanist (2018), A Future So Bright (2021), and Pixels and Place (2016). She advises Google, IBM, Microsoft, the United Nations, Harvard, and Yale. She hosts The Tech Humanist Show on YouTube. References: •       What Matters Next: A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That's Moving Too Fast by Kate O'Neill (Wiley, January 2025). •       Kazuo Ishiguro, Klara and the Sun (2021) — the novel discussed in the conversation's closing section. •       Victoria Hetherington, The Friend Machine — referenced by Andrew in the conversation on AI companionship. About Keen On America Nobody asks more awkward questions than the Anglo-American writer and filmmaker Andrew Keen. In Keen On America, Andrew brings his pointed Transatlantic wit to making sense of the United States — hosting daily interviews about the history and future of this now venerable Republic. With nearly 3,000 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting. WebsiteSubstackYouTube

On this episode of the Woodard Report podcast, Joe speaks with Kate O'Neill about the intersection of technology and humanity, exploring how businesses can embrace AI and automation without losing the human connection that drives trust, meaning, and purpose. They discuss why accounting professionals should view AI not as a replacement, but as an opportunity to shift from transactional work to more strategic, empathetic, and judgment-driven client relationships. The conversation also dives into the risks of over-automation and why human wisdom, context, and lived experience remain irreplaceable in an increasingly tech-driven world. About Kate O'Neill Kate is the founder of KO Insights, helping leaders and organizations make future-ready, meaningful, and ethical decisions about technology and innovation. She's a former digital strategist for Netflix and early Google, and the author of 6 books, 4 of which are in tech and business including Tech Humanist and What Matters Next. Learn more about KO Insights Connect with Kate on LinkedIn Thank you to our show sponsor, Rightworks! For more information about RightWorks, please visit woodard.com/podcast.  Learn more about the show and our sponsors at Woodard.com/podcast

"If you don't tell your stories, then no one will ever know, …Basically I just said, I think we should tell the positive stories and we should do it through the people…Let's actually just go and meet the people at all levels from the people that are involved in the projects and organizing them. Also the people that are participating in them and benefiting from them and find out what they say. How does this change your life? Is this actually happening? Did trees actually get planted? Did this well actually get plugged?." Stacey Solie on Electric Ladies Podcast   Who are the regular people on the ground saving their land and helping address climate crisis through carbon markets? Today we're going to hear from one of the producers of a new documentary about them, and be inspired to maybe think a little differently.   Listen to Stacey Solie, coproducer of "From The Ground Up: Voices From The Carbon Markets" and founder and CEO of Strategic Story Craft, in this fascinating conversation with Electric Ladies Podcast host Joan Michelson.   You'll hear about: ●        How they found these remarkably normal people doing extraordinarily simple things and benefiting from the carbon markets to save their land. ●        How these carbon market deals work as creative business models ●        How to leverage creativity to reach more people about the climate crisis. ●        Plus, career advice, such as:   "One thing that I've done is just given myself permission to explore… sometimes saying yes to something for your community that I guess I just learned so much and I met so many people and I got exposed to really amazing artists in ways that are still playing out today. So…being open to exploring… There's different ways to do things. There's a lot of different kinds of people that are trying to make a difference, and they're all intersecting in really creative ways. And I think maybe we can take that model for solutions more broadly. Let's just get creative and work together and try to solve these problems." Stacey Solie on Electric Ladies Podcast   Read Joan's Forbes articles here.   You'll also like: ·       How To Talk 'Climate' To Keep People Safe -  with Allison Agsten, USC Center for Climate Journalism & Communications ·       How to Talk About Climate in a Polarized Culture - with Katharine Hayhoe, Ph.D., Climate Scientist, Professor at Texas Tech University and Chief Scientist at The Nature Conservancy ·       Seek First to Understand - with Jennifer Hough, Advisor, TEDx Speaker, Author ·       How Do We Talk About Climate? - with Jill Tidman, Executive Director of The Redford Center, nonprofit producing environmental documentaries and media ·       What's a Tech Humanist? - with Kate O'Neill, Speaker, Tech Humanist, Author ·       The Politics of Climate & Energy – with Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan, Co-Chair, Bipartisan Climate Solutions Caucus ·       How Climate Modelling Affects Everything – Maria Caffrey, Ph.D., Principal Scientist, UK's National Physical Laboratory Subscribe to our newsletter to receive our podcasts, blog, events and special coaching offers. Thanks for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or iHeartRadio and leaving us a review! Follow us on Twitter @joanmichelson

AI, layoffs, reskilling - everyone's reacting to the same headlines. The question is: are they making the right decisions because of them? In this episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, David Green is joined by Kate O'Neill, Tech Humanist, keynote speaker, and author of What Matters Next, to explore how leaders can make more deliberate, context-aware decisions in a landscape shaped by constant change. Join them, as they discuss: Why reacting to headlines can lead to poor decision-making How to take a more structured, long-term view of change The ultimate approach to prioritising in complex environments What meaningful upskilling looks like in the age of AI Why prompting reflects a deeper shift in how work gets done How to build trust and communicate change more effectively This episode is sponsored by Visier. Visier Workforce AI is your GPS for workforce decisions. Spot attrition risk, uncover pay gaps, measure leadership impact, and track skills shortages before they slow growth. Then act. Align talent to real business outcomes. Across industries, HR and business leaders are using Visier Workforce AI to navigate the biggest workforce shifts of our time. Move from knowing to doing, faster. See it in action at visier.com Also, make sure to read to explore Visier's latest research on strategic workforce planning in the AI era.Resources: What Matters Next: A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions We can not leave meaning to machine - TED talk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

"If there are people who are willing to talk to you about it, the first thing you got to do is listen….I grew up in a very rural area and it's very conservative also. And when I go home, I don't talk about climate change. I do talk about what's going on with hunting season. 'Oh, there's no deer this year. Why do you think that is? Tell me about the rain'….It is again about that pivoting and you have to understand what's important to the people you're talking to… I might say, 'I just upgraded my mom's generator. It's great because with all the outages we're having out here, now she can get electricity and I know your husband's been sick, that could be something that could be really beneficial for you.' I do not mention climate change…I am putting out ideas that are going to save somebody's life, I'm responding to the situation of the people that I'm speaking with." Allison Agsten on Electric Ladies Podcast How do we keep people safe and sound in the face of ferocious weather, wildfires and floods, especially when they wince at the words "climate change"? Make it real for their world. How? Listen to Allison Agsten, Director of the Center for Climate Journalism and Communications at the University of Southern California in this fascinating conversation with Electric Ladies Podcast host Joan Michelson. She also curates art at the intersection of art and climate at the Wrigley Marine Science Center.   You'll hear about: How to keep people safe with adaptation strategies without talking about climate change. How art and climate intersect and how it helps people stay safe. How to combat disinformation and misinformation…and so much more Plus, career advice, such as: "When I talk to women who are at some point in their careers and they're thinking of joining our sustainability communicator cohort, they always say to me, I just don't know if my skills are translatable. Yeah, they are. I can help you think about the language…It's scary because I've done it myself. I've made a number of career pivots, but to me, even scarier is not taking that chance and having the opportunity to feel really good about the work you do every day….I sleep well at night because I know that I used the skills that I have to do the thing that I think is most important." Allison Agsten on Electric Ladies Podcast Subscribe to our newsletter here -- and Read Joan's Forbes articles here. You'll also like: How to Talk About Climate in a Polarized Culture - with Katharine Hayhoe, Ph.D., Climate Scientist, Professor at Texas Tech University and Chief Scientist at The Nature Conservancy Seek First to Understand - with Jennifer Hough, Advisor, TEDx Speaker, Author How Do We Talk About Climate? - with Jill Tidman, Executive Director of The Redford Center, nonprofit producing environmental documentaries and media What's a Tech Humanist? - with Kate O'Neill, Speaker, Tech Humanist, Author The Politics of Climate & Energy – with Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan, Co-Chair, Bipartisan Climate Solutions Caucus How Climate Modelling Affects Everything – Maria Caffrey, Ph.D., Principal Scientist, UK's National Physical Laboratory Subscribe to our newsletter to receive our podcasts, blog, events and special coaching offers. Thanks for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or iHeartRadio and leaving us a review! Follow us on Twitter @joanmichelson

What happens when your AI strategy moves faster than your team's ability to trust it, govern it, or explain it? In this episode of Leveraging Thought Leadership, Peter Winick sits down with Kate O'Neill—Founder & CEO of KO Insights, author of "What Matters Next", and globally recognized as a "tech humanist"—to unpack what leaders are getting dangerously wrong about digital transformation right now. Kate challenges the default mindset that tech exists to serve the business first and humans second. She reframes the entire conversation as a three-way relationship between business, humans, and technology. That shift matters, because "human impact" isn't a nice-to-have. It's the core variable that determines whether innovation scales sustainably or collapses under backlash, risk, and regret. You'll hear why so many companies are racing into AI with confidence on the surface and fear underneath. Boards want speed. Markets reward bold moves. But many executives privately admit they don't fully understand the complexity or consequences of the decisions they're being pressured to make. Kate gives language for that tension and practical frameworks for "future-ready" leadership that doesn't sacrifice long-term resilience for short-term acceleration. The conversation gets real about what trust and risk actually mean in an AI-driven world. Kate argues that leaders need a better taxonomy of both—because without it, AI becomes a multiplier of bad decisions, not a generator of better ones. Faster isn't automatically smarter. And speed without wisdom is just expensive chaos. Finally, Kate shares the larger mission behind her work: influencing the decisions that impact millions of people downstream. Her "10,000 Boardrooms for 1 Billion People" initiative is built around one big idea—if we want human-friendly tech at scale, we need better thinking at the top. Not performative ethics. Not buzzwords. Better decisions, made earlier, by the people with the power to set direction. If you lead strategy, product, innovation, or culture—and you're feeling the pressure to "move faster" with AI—this episode gives you the language, frameworks, and leadership posture to move responsibly without losing momentum. Three Key Takeaways: • Human impact isn't a soft metric—it's a strategy decision. Kate reframes transformation as a three-way relationship between business, humans, and technology. If you don't design for the human outcome, the business outcome eventually breaks. • AI speed without trust creates risk. Leaders feel pressure to move fast, but trust, governance, and clarity lag behind. Without a shared understanding of risk and responsibility, AI becomes a multiplier of bad decisions. • Better decisions upstream create better outcomes at scale. Kate's "10,000 Boardrooms for 1 Billion People" idea drives home that the biggest lever isn't the tool—it's leadership judgment. The earlier the thinking improves at the top, the safer and more scalable innovation becomes. If Kate's "tech humanist" lens made you rethink how you're leading AI and transformation, your next listen should be our episode 149 with Brian Solis. Brian goes deep on what most leaders miss—the human side of digital change, the behavioral ripple effects of technology, and why transformation only works when it's designed for people, not just performance. Queue it up now and pair the two episodes back-to-back for a powerful executive playbook: Kate helps you decide what matters next—Brian helps you understand what your customers and employees will do next.

"People care about the diversity because diversity makes teams stronger. And, and this is research based. And so they can say what they want, but those who know that there is strength in diversity, they'll continue on in spite of the, you know, the outcry on the other end….There's research that shows that when the lives of billions of women are improved, here's what happens. Number one, there's better female leadership. Number two, there's stronger education and more equality with women and girls. There's healthier national economies. There's research. …There's stronger families and my friends, there's greater peace." Paula Noble Fellingham on Electric Ladies Podcast To start off the year, we're talking with an expert who has been mobilizing people all over the globe for decades, especially women. Women can make a huge impact right now, if we leverage our strengths and influence. How? Listen to Paula Noble Fellingham talk about her suggestions in this engaging discussion with Electric Ladies Podcast host Joan Michelson.    You'll hear about: How women can leverage their influence much more effectively, building campaigns. How to make the case for diversity, and specifically for elevating women to leadership roles. How more women leaders advance the U.N. Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) Plus, insightful career advice, such as… "Kick up your ask, because so many women need to be more confident and they need to ask for the promotion. However, they need to be qualified for the promotion…. (S)ay, 'this is what I've done in the last year. This is the how I've helped the ROI of this company. This is what I can do in the future,' and have it written and say it in a way, and this is so important. Say it in a way that doesn't create an adversarial relationship, but invites them. So here's a beautiful way to say it. I invite you to consider the possibility of this because I am qualified…I am qualified because of the things I've done, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and the things I know I can do, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 to help this company move forward." Paula Fellingham on Electric Ladies Podcast Read Joan's Forbes article about this new report here and more of her articles here too. You'll also like: ·        Career Advice for Women During Difficult Times: Here is valuable career advice from five extraordinary women at this tumultuous time. It's a good way to start the year too. ·        Women's Trillions Will Change Everything: Listen to Silvia Bastante de Unverhau of LGT Private Bank on how women gaining over 50% of global wealth through "the great wealth transfer" going on will have a profound effect on all economies. ·       Are You A 'Tech Humanist'?: Listen to Kate O'Neill, author of "Tech Humanist," speaker and corporate strategist on what that means, and how to maximize the intersection of technology and humanity. ·       Technology And Design Improving Urban Environments: Listen to Nikki Greenberg, architect and expert in urban design talk about improving where and how we live in cities with design as well as technology. Subscribe to our newsletter to receive our podcasts, blog, events and special coaching offers.. Thanks for subscribing on Apple Podcasts or iHeartRadio and leaving us a review! Follow us on Twitter @joanmichelson

Kate O'Neill is a leading voice on AI and tech humanism, known for helping organizations build more meaningful, human-centered futures. She has been featured by outlets like BBC, NPR, and NBC, and serves on the United Nations AI advisory board. A CX Hall of Fame inductee and award-winning entrepreneur, Kate brings a unique blend of optimism and realism to conversations about AI, data, and the future of work. Her latest book, What Matters Next, explores how to make human-friendly tech decisions.In this conversation we discussed:How tech humanism explains the relationship between people, technology, and business, and how leaders can design AI systems that strengthen the alignmentWhy humans project intelligence and agency onto AI tools, and what it takes to build healthy, intentional habits around emerging technologiesPractical ways workers can use AI to elevate their roles rather than fear automationThe role of leadership in creating psychologically safe environments where employees can openly experiment with AI toolsThe risk of designing systems that lead to “automated bureaucracy,” and how organizations can embed meaning into automated experiences at scaleWhy meaning and purpose remain uniquely human, and how future workplaces can evolve by pairing human judgment with increasingly capable AI systemsResources:Subscribe to the AI & The Future of Work NewsletterConnect with Kate on LinkedIn or at KO InsightsAI fun fact articleOn How Unleashing Human Potential with AI

TrulySignificant.com presents Kate O'Neill, renowned Tech Humanist, author of What Matters Next? and honored as Thinkers50.Kate spent her career exploring how technology can serve humanity—not the other way around. From pioneering the first intranet for Toshiba America to becoming Netflix's first Content Manager, Kate has seen firsthand how emerging technologies can either empower people or overwhelm them.Today, Kate advises organizations around the world on creating sustainable growth, designing equitably, and building long-term value through human-centered innovation. She is the author of What Matters Next? A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That's Moving Too Fast, where Kate examines how thoughtful technology choices shape the future.On this episode, we dive into regenerative growth, practical applications of machine learning, and how data can reveal insights that genuinely improve the customer experience. You'll hear about digital transformation in the film industry, strategies for investing in sustainability, and maximizing energy and processing power through thoughtful system design.Ultimately, this conversation is about setting a new precedent—using technology as a steward, sensitive to humanity, and always mindful of what truly matters next.  Visit www.koinsights.com Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.

If you're making tech decisions faster than your team can absorb them or you're worried AI might erase the “human” from your business; this conversation will feel like a deep breath and a reset button. Today, I sit down with Kate O'Neill. She's known as the “tech humanist,” founder and CEO of KO Insights, and newly named member of the Thinkers50 list of top management thinkers in the world. We unpack her new book, What Matters Next? A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That Is Moving Too Fast, and explore how leaders can stay grounded in purpose while navigating AI, automation, and constant change. Kate shares the “now–next continuum” and her Insights & Foresights model as practical ways to reduce overwhelm, make better decisions, and design a future that works for both your business and your people. If you're leading through chaos and want your organization to be both high-performing and deeply human, this one is for you. Here are some highlights: -Redefining purpose as a question: How Kate uses one core question “How can we help humanity prepare for an increasingly tech-driven future?” and why reframing your mission as a question can sharpen strategy and culture. -The Now–Next continuum: A practical way for leaders to connect past, present, and future so the “future of work” feels less murky and more manageable, with clearer signals about what to do today. -Insights, Foresights, and “bankable foresights”: Inside Kate's decision-making model that helps executives ask better questions, synthesize what they're learning, and build a growing bank of future-ready insights instead of reacting in panic. -What “human-friendly” tech decisions really look like: From AI-driven layoffs to chatbots and educational tools, we talk about the hidden human costs of short-sighted tech choices for employees, customers, and students, and how to design more holistic, human-centered solutions. -AI, higher education, and the next generation of talent: Why banning tools like ChatGPT is a missed opportunity, how good prompting mirrors good delegation, and what universities and employers can do to better prepare young professionals for a prompt-based, AI-enabled workplace. About the guest:  Kate O'Neill, known globally as the “Tech Humanist," is the founder and CEO of KO Insights, a strategic advisory firm dedicated to improving human experience at scale. Her innovative approach bridges the gap between technological advancement and human-centric values, influencing how organizations navigate digital transformation. She is also author of the book What Matters Next: A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That's Moving Too Fast, which was named a Thinkers50 2025 Best Management Book. With a career spanning over 25 years, Kate's expertise is rooted in hands-on experience with category-defining companies. She was one of the first 100 employees at Netflix, where she pioneered the first content management role. She developed Toshiba America's first intranet and founded [meta]marketer, one of the earliest digital strategy and analytics agencies. Connect with Kate: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kateoneill/  Website: https://www.koinsights.com/  Book: https://www.amazon.com/What-Matters-Next-Human-Friendly-Decisions/dp/1394296428  Connect with Allison: Feedspot has named Disruptive CEO Nation as one of the Top 25 CEO Podcasts on the web, and it is ranked the number 6 CEO podcast to listen to in 2025! https://podcasts.feedspot.com/ceo_podcasts/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisonsummerschicago/  Website: https://www.disruptiveceonation.com/   #CEO #leadership #startup #founder #business #businesspodcast  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you're making tech decisions faster than your team can absorb them or you're worried AI might erase the “human” from your business; this conversation will feel like a deep breath and a reset button. Today, I sit down with Kate O'Neill. She's known as the “tech humanist,” founder and CEO of KO Insights, and newly named member of the Thinkers50 list of top management thinkers in the world. We unpack her new book, What Matters Next? A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That Is Moving Too Fast, and explore how leaders can stay grounded in purpose while navigating AI, automation, and constant change. Kate shares the “now–next continuum” and her Insights & Foresights model as practical ways to reduce overwhelm, make better decisions, and design a future that works for both your business and your people. If you're leading through chaos and want your organization to be both high-performing and deeply human, this one is for you. Here are some highlights: -Redefining purpose as a question: How Kate uses one core question “How can we help humanity prepare for an increasingly tech-driven future?” and why reframing your mission as a question can sharpen strategy and culture. -The Now–Next continuum: A practical way for leaders to connect past, present, and future so the “future of work” feels less murky and more manageable, with clearer signals about what to do today. -Insights, Foresights, and “bankable foresights”: Inside Kate's decision-making model that helps executives ask better questions, synthesize what they're learning, and build a growing bank of future-ready insights instead of reacting in panic. -What “human-friendly” tech decisions really look like: From AI-driven layoffs to chatbots and educational tools, we talk about the hidden human costs of short-sighted tech choices for employees, customers, and students, and how to design more holistic, human-centered solutions. -AI, higher education, and the next generation of talent: Why banning tools like ChatGPT is a missed opportunity, how good prompting mirrors good delegation, and what universities and employers can do to better prepare young professionals for a prompt-based, AI-enabled workplace. About the guest:  Kate O'Neill, known globally as the “Tech Humanist," is the founder and CEO of KO Insights, a strategic advisory firm dedicated to improving human experience at scale. Her innovative approach bridges the gap between technological advancement and human-centric values, influencing how organizations navigate digital transformation. She is also author of the book What Matters Next: A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That's Moving Too Fast, which was named a Thinkers50 2025 Best Management Book. With a career spanning over 25 years, Kate's expertise is rooted in hands-on experience with category-defining companies. She was one of the first 100 employees at Netflix, where she pioneered the first content management role. She developed Toshiba America's first intranet and founded [meta]marketer, one of the earliest digital strategy and analytics agencies. Connect with Kate: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kateoneill/  Website: https://www.koinsights.com/  Book: https://www.amazon.com/What-Matters-Next-Human-Friendly-Decisions/dp/1394296428  Connect with Allison: Feedspot has named Disruptive CEO Nation as one of the Top 25 CEO Podcasts on the web, and it is ranked the number 6 CEO podcast to listen to in 2025! https://podcasts.feedspot.com/ceo_podcasts/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisonsummerschicago/  Website: https://www.disruptiveceonation.com/   #CEO #leadership #startup #founder #business #businesspodcast  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

TrulySignificant.com presents Kate O'Neill, renowned Tech Humanist, author of What Matters Next? and honored as Thinkers50.Kate spent her career exploring how technology can serve humanity—not the other way around. From pioneering the first intranet for Toshiba America to becoming Netflix's first Content Manager, Kate has seen firsthand how emerging technologies can either empower people or overwhelm them.Today, Kate advises organizations around the world on creating sustainable growth, designing equitably, and building long-term value through human-centered innovation. She is the author of What Matters Next? A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That's Moving Too Fast, where Kate examines how thoughtful technology choices shape the future.On this episode, we dive into regenerative growth, practical applications of machine learning, and how data can reveal insights that genuinely improve the customer experience. You'll hear about digital transformation in the film industry, strategies for investing in sustainability, and maximizing energy and processing power through thoughtful system design.Ultimately, this conversation is about setting a new precedent—using technology as a steward, sensitive to humanity, and always mindful of what truly matters next.  Visit www.koinsights.com Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.

In this thought-provoking conversation, I'm joined by Kate O'Neill, author, speaker, and founder of KO Insights, to explore how leaders can make meaningful, human-centered decisions in a time of rapid AI adoption and organisational change. Known as the “Tech Humanist,” Kate has helped everyone from Google and IBM to city governments navigate the evolving relationship between emerging technologies and the human experience. We discuss what it really means to create a future that aligns tech innovation with human values. Rather than racing ahead with AI for its own sake, Kate argues that every organisation needs to start by clearly articulating its strategic purpose in three to five words. From there, technology should be implemented to serve people, not just processes. Kate shares insights from her latest book What Matters Next, including how to define ethical acceleration, how to lead through tech transformations without breaking cultural trust, and why asking “should we?” is more important than “can we?” when it comes to deploying agentic AI. She also breaks down why traditional efficiency metrics fall short when applied to human work, and how business leaders can shift towards more meaningful measures of success. We also reflect on real-world case studies, from Apple's design clarity to Duolingo's missteps in announcing its AI-first strategy. And in a world where many are using AI to automate hiring, content creation, and even strategy, Kate reminds us that wisdom, nuance, and empathy are still irreplaceable. So what does ethical acceleration look like in practice? And as businesses lean into automation, are we keeping the human experience at the centre or just chasing what's technically possible? I'd love to hear your take on this. Is your organisation leading with purpose or with pressure? Let's continue the conversation.

In this episode of No Brainer, hosts Geoff Livingston and Greg Verdino chat with Kate O'Neill about leadership, human-friendly AI decision making, and her new book What Matters Next. Kate is the founder and CEO of strategic advisory firm KO Insights, host of the Tech Humanist Show, a highly acclaimed global keynote speaker, and a four-time business author. Her work has earned her a coveted spot on the Thinkers50 Radar in 2020 and she was shortlisted for the Thinkers50 Digital Thinking Award in 2023. Drawing on the key themes from her latest book and her wider body of work, Kate emphasizes the need for leaders to balance action and inaction, approach the future as an extension of the decisions we make today, align technology with human experience, and maintain a clear purpose in their organizations. the discussion also touches on the role of strategic optimism in shaping a better future through informed decision-making. Links: ·     About Kate: https://www.koinsights.com/about-kate/ ·     Connect with Kate: https://linkedin.com/in/kateoneill ·     What Matters Next: https://www.koinsights.com/books/what-matters-next-book/ ·     About KO Insights: https://koinsights.com ·     The Tech Humanist Show: https://thetechhumanistshow.com Chapters 00:00 Intro 02:41 What's a Tech Humanist? 05:30 Navigating Human-Friendly Technology Decisions 08:08 The Impact of Deregulation on Technology Decisions 10:42 Balancing Action and Inaction 13:26 The Role of Purpose in Technology Decisions 25:21 Aligning Technology with Purpose 27:34 Articulating Purpose for Digital Transformation 29:37 Integrating Technology into Business Strategy 32:22 The Role of Human Workers in an AI-Driven World 33:59 Balancing Profit and Human Value 36:43 Strategic Optimism and Decision Making Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Technology is changing at a rapid rate. AI is changing at a rapid rate. How do you keep up with not only the technology, but use it to thrive? How can all of this change feel optimistic?Well, today the team is joined by the perfect person to help us see this vision. Known globally as the "Tech Humanist," Kate O'Neill is a leading voice on AI ethics, responsible tech, and human-centric digital transformation. As a sought-after expert, she advises Fortune 500 leaders and speaks at high-profile events worldwide on navigating our tech-driven future while prioritizing human experiences. Some other things Kate is known for:- Author of six books, including the forthcoming "What Matters Next: A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That's Moving Too Fast"- Shortlisted for the prestigious Thinkers50 Digital Thinking Award- Featured expert on BBC, WIRED, NPR, and other major media outlets- Pioneering roles: First content management position at Netflix, built Toshiba's first intranetIn this episode of the Magical Learning Podcast, The team and Kate discuss the evolving landscape of leadership in the context of rapid technological change. Kate shares insights on building adaptable and resilient leadership, the challenges leaders face in a fast-paced environment, and the importance of clarity in decision-making. The conversation also touches on the significance of slowing down to gain insights, navigating the complexities of technology and human needs, and overcoming imposter syndrome in leadership roles. Kate emphasizes the need for leaders to develop effective learning processes and to invest in human-centric technology solutions.To grab a copy of Kate's Book "What Matters Next": https://www.koinsights.com/books/what-matters-next-book/And to find Kate or reach out:https://www.koinsights.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kateoneill/Chapters00:00 Welcome to the Magical Learning Podcast03:07 Introduction of Guests and Their Backgrounds05:04 Building Adaptable and Resilient Leadership in a Rapidly Changing Tech Landscape10:47 Challenges of Rapid Change in Technology14:51 The Intersection of Technology and Human Needs18:21 Navigating a Complex World of Change19:01 Navigating Rapid Change in Tech and Pop Culture21:38 The Power of a Learner's Mindset25:19 Building Effective Learning Frameworks29:44 Leveraging Relationships for Learning30:29 Imposter Syndrome in Leadership35:25 Visionary Leadership and Future PlanningAll Magical Learning podcasts are recorded on the beautiful lands of the Kulin, Ngunnawal and Wiradjuri nations, and we pay our respect to their elders past and present.As always, if you are having trouble, you can always send us a message.Listen to/watch this podcast here: ⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/128QgGO....To find out more about our free content, sign-up for future webinars as well as our other services, go to ⁠⁠https://magicallearning.com/⁠⁠ and sign up!You can also find us on our socials: Instagram: / magical_learning Facebook: / magicallearningteam Linkedin: / magicallearning Youtube: / @magicallearning Have a Magical week!

Kate O'Neill is a strategic advisor for Google, Yale, the UN, and more. One of the first 100 employees at Netflix, she teaches leaders how to leverage tech with empathy to maximum value to customers and shareholders. Her new book is titled, "What Matters Next: A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That's Moving Too Fast". Learn more about Kate at https://www.koinsights.com.

After winning the prestigious New York Digital Award in 2024, Redefining AI returns with an electrifying Season Four! Join your host Lauren Hawker Zafer, on behalf of Squirro, the Enterprise Gen AI Platform, as we embark on another season of groundbreaking conversations. Episode two guides us into a conversation with Kate O'Neill on What Matters Next: Navigating Leadership and Human-Centered Tech. Who is Kate O'Neill? Kate is founder and CEO of KO Insights, a strategic advisory firm which improves human experience at scale — especially in data-driven, algorithmically-optimized, AI-led interactions. Her clients and audiences include Adobe, the city of Amsterdam, the city of Austin, Cambridge, Coca-Cola, Etsy, Getty Images, Google, Harvard, IBM, McDonald's, Microsoft, the United Nations, Yale, and Zoom. Before starting KO Insights, Kate was one of the first 100 employees at Netflix, a technologist at Toshiba, and founder of the groundbreaking analytics firm, [meta]marketer. Kate has received awards and wide recognition. She was named “Technology Entrepreneur of the Year,” a “Power Leader in Technology,” a “Woman of Influence,” was featured by Google in the launch of their global campaign for women in entrepreneurship. Her insights have been featured in the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and WIRED, and she has appeared as an expert tech commentator on the BBC and NPR. Known for her ability to make complex topics relatable, Kate is a sought-after keynote speaker, appearing at conferences and corporate events and has spoken to hundreds of thousands of audience members worldwide. She's written six books, including four on business strategy and technology: Tech Humanist, Pixels and Place, A Future So Bright, and What Matters Next. Why listen? This episode of Redefining AI is a must-listen for leaders, innovators, and tech enthusiasts navigating the fast-paced world of artificial intelligence and digital transformation. Featuring renowned tech strategist and author Kate O'Neill, we dive into essential topics like ethical AI, human-centered leadership, informed decision-making, and aligning business goals with meaningful human experiences. Kate shares actionable strategies from her new book, What Matters Next, offering frameworks like the "Now/Next Continuum" and generative thinking to help leaders balance innovation with responsibility. Packed with real-world examples and practical insights, this episode is perfect for anyone looking to future-proof their organization, embrace ethical technology, and lead with impact in 2025. Stream it now on Spotify to stay ahead in the AI-driven business landscape! #ai #techpodcast

After winning the prestigious New York Digital Award in 2024, Redefining AI returns with an electrifying Season Four! Join your host Lauren Hawker Zafer, on behalf of Squirro, the Enterprise Gen AI Platform, as we embark on another season of groundbreaking conversations. Spotlight Two, teases us into a conversation with Kate O'Neill on What Matters Next: Navigating Leadership and Human-Centered Tech. Who is Kate O'Neill? Kate is founder and CEO of KO Insights, a strategic advisory firm which improves human experience at scale — especially in data-driven, algorithmically-optimized, AI-led interactions. Her clients and audiences include Adobe, the city of Amsterdam, the city of Austin, Cambridge, Coca-Cola, Etsy, Getty Images, Google, Harvard, IBM, McDonald's, Microsoft, the United Nations, Yale, and Zoom. Before starting KO Insights, Kate was one of the first 100 employees at Netflix, a technologist at Toshiba, and founder of the groundbreaking analytics firm, [meta]marketer. Kate has received awards and wide recognition. She was named “Technology Entrepreneur of the Year,” a “Power Leader in Technology,” a “Woman of Influence,” was featured by Google in the launch of their global campaign for women in entrepreneurship. Her insights have been featured in the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and WIRED, and she has appeared as an expert tech commentator on the BBC and NPR. Known for her ability to make complex topics relatable, Kate is a sought-after keynote speaker, appearing at conferences and corporate events and has spoken to hundreds of thousands of audience members worldwide. She's written six books, including four on business strategy and technology: Tech Humanist, Pixels and Place, A Future So Bright, and What Matters Next. Why listen? This episode of Redefining AI is a must-listen for leaders, innovators, and tech enthusiasts navigating the fast-paced world of artificial intelligence and digital transformation. Featuring renowned tech strategist and author Kate O'Neill, we dive into essential topics like ethical AI, human-centered leadership, informed decision-making, and aligning business goals with meaningful human experiences. Kate shares actionable strategies from her new book, What Matters Next, offering frameworks like the "Now/Next Continuum" and generative thinking to help leaders balance innovation with responsibility. Packed with real-world examples and practical insights, this episode is perfect for anyone looking to future-proof their organization, embrace ethical technology, and lead with impact in 2025. Stream it now on Spotify to stay ahead in the AI-driven business landscape!

The pioneering force in tech-humanism, Kate O'Neill comes back on Thrive LouD. As a global keynote speaker, author, and podcaster, Kate brings her deep expertise and optimistic approach to shaping humanity's future in our increasingly tech-driven world. Join host Lou Diamond and Kate O'Neill as they dive into her latest book, "What Matters Next." Discover how Kate combines strategic optimism and innovative frameworks to help leaders make human-friendly tech decisions confidently in an era defined by rapid technological change. This episode is an essential listen for anyone seeking to navigate the complex landscape of modern technology and its implications on business and leadership. Kate shares insights about the speed of tech adaptation, the common fears leaders face, and introduces the critical concept of balancing the 'harms of action' versus the 'harms of inaction.' She offers valuable tools and strategies for leaders who might feel daunted by these rapid advancements, providing a visionary approach to future-ready decision-making. Tune in as Kate O'Neill illuminates the path to confidently steering through tech-driven changes and ensuring our decisions today lead to a better, more human-centric tomorrow. Don't miss this thought-provoking and uplifting discussion that promises to inspire and equip you to thrive in the ever-evolving tech landscape! Follow Us:

Kate is a digital innovator, chief executive, business writer, and a globally recognized speaker known as the "Tech Humanist." She is the founder and CEO of KO Insights, a strategic advisory firm that enhances human experiences at scale through data-driven and AI-led interactions. Kate has worked with prestigious clients like Google, IBM, Microsoft, and the United Nations, and she was one of the first 100 employees at Netflix.   The Tech Humanist returns to the podcast to talk about building relationships, decision making, AI, and much more!

The future of technology is rapidly changing the world of work, which made many people fear that technology will replace them. But you don't have to be afraid because it's not about the robots and remote work; it's about YOU. In today's episode, Kate O'Neill, the Author of Tech Humanist and the Founder of KO Insights, delves into how human-centric digital transformation shapes the workplace and upskills humans. Explore the ethical implications of AI Automation and how to ensure technology serves humanity. Also, hear Kate's insights on using tech to solve the world's biggest challenges – with a human touch. Today's conversation is something you don't want to miss! Join Kate O'Neill and be inspired to shape your future in a technology-driven world. Check out the full series of "Career Sessions, Career Lessons" podcasts here or visit pathwise.io/podcast/. A full written transcript of this episode is also available at https://pathwise.io/podcasts/the-interconnected-future-of-technology-and-humanity-with-kate-oneill.Become a PathWise member today! Join at https://pathwise.io/join-now/

Widely known as the “Tech Humanist”, Kate O'Neill is founder and CEO of KO Insights, a strategic advisory firm committed to improving human experience at scale through more meaningful and aligned strategy. Kate sits down with Dan Pontefract on this episode to discuss the link between technology and our humanity. It's don't miss viewing. Kate is helping humanity prepare for an increasingly tech-driven future and is doing so through her signature strategic optimism. Among her prior roles, she created the first content management role at Netflix, developed Toshiba America‘s first intranet, and founded [meta]marketer, one of the first digital strategy and analytics agencies. Kate has appeared as an expert tech commentator on BBC, NPR, and a wide variety of international media, and her written insights have been featured in WIRED, CMO.com, and many other outlets. She has worked with global companies such as Google, Etsy and Cisco to optimise the role technology plays in the modern world. Her books have included “Tech Humanist” and “Pixels and Place,” as well as her latest, “A Future So Bright,” which launched in September 2021.

“What does it mean for people if their jobs are threatened by a sense of automation sort of encroaching on the tasks that make up their job?” Debbie talks with Kate O'Neill about the automation of work and how to adapt. This episode shares insightful ways to think about where automation is useful and where it isn't.Follow Kate on LinkedIn

Today we talk about Optimism. No, I am not referring to how to be all positive all the time and all that stuff. I am referring to how you as tech leader, expert, consultant, can approach the future with a different lens. A lens of possibilities.  My guest is Tech Humanist Kate O'Neill (https://www.koinsights.com/). If you are asking what a Tech Humanist is then listen to this episode as she will explain. She is also the author of the books Tech Humanist, and A Future So Bright. Her goal is to help humanity prepare for an increasingly tech driven future.  Today we talk about how to prepare to become more optimistic about this future and if you already are, then how do we inject this optimism to others.  For more resources, subscribe to the newsletter via https://www.hardcoresoftskillspodcast.com/ If you are ready to enhance the skills you need to advance your career or the performance of your team, visit  https://www.hardcoresoftskillspodcast.com/support/  Connect with me via LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/yadiraycaro/ .  

Hello and welcome to The Tech Humanist Show! In this introductory episode, host Kate O'Neill explains what a tech humanist is and what you can expect from future episodes. Guests on this episode includue Emma Bedor Hiland, Oluwakemi Olurinola, Dorothea Baur, Rumman Chowdhury, Chris Gilliard, and Rahaf Harfoush. The Tech Humanist Show is a multi-media […]

Hello and welcome to The Tech Humanist Show! In this introductory episode, host Kate O'Neill explains what a tech humanist is and what you can expect from future episodes. Guests on this episode includue Emma Bedor Hiland, Oluwakemi Olurinola, Dorothea Baur, Rumman Chowdhury, Chris Gilliard, and Rahaf Harfoush. The Tech Humanist Show is a multi-media format program exploring how data and technology shape the human experience. Hosted by Kate O'Neill. To watch full interviews with past and future guests, or for updates on what Kate O'Neill is doing next, subscribe to The Tech Humanist Show hosted by Kate O'Neill channel on YouTube. Transcript Hello humans, and welcome to The Tech Humanist Show! In this introductory episode, I'll explain what a tech humanist is, and what you can expect from future episodes. A Tech Humanist, as I've coined it, is a person who sees the exciting opportunities technology offers humanity, while remaining cautious & conscious of the potential risks and harms those technologies bring. It isn't the same thing as a techno-utopian, who believes technology will inevitably bring about a utopia in the future, or a techno-solutionist, who believes technology is the solution to all our problems. Instead, a tech humanist believes that when we design technology, we have to think of humanity first and foremost, and remain active and diligent in making technology work better for all people. Here are a few clips from some of the experts I've spoken with for The Tech Humanist Show who sum it up well. Emma Bedor Hiland: “I do actually identify as a tech humanist, because I am optimistic about what technologies can do, and offer, and provide and the ways they might be utilized to enhance human flourishing, especially in health spaces and including the mental healthcare space, too. I just think we also need to be realistic about what technology can do, and the ways that technologies are deployed which might cause us harm.” Oluwakemi Olurinola: “I actually like the humanist put beside the tech. Since I advocate for empathy and social and emotional learning while we also train on the digital skills, I am a tech humanist.” Dorothea Baur: “I'm proud to be a humanist! I believe that there is something distinctive about humans that we need to keep alive. One of the biggest achievements is that, like, 200 and, y'know, 40 years ago, when the Enlightenment set in, where we said, ‘hey, people, dare to use your own minds!' it was like a wake-up call, because we didn't really make an effort to explore the world because we thought everything was determined by God. By stepping out of this dependency and using our own brains, we liberated ourselves. And so now, are we taking it too far? Have we used our brains so far that we're eventually training machines that are smarter than us and they're kind of imposing their decisions again upon us, and not just imposing their decisions on us, but also imposing decisions that are equally as intransparent as god's decisions, if you look at certain algorithms. We cannot delegate our responsibility to machines! We can use machines to improve our health, and our well-being, etc., to improve the world, but we cannot entirely delegate responsibility to machines.” Right now, we're seeing massive shifts in the way humans live and interact with technology, which makes tech humanism more important than ever. To maintain our agency, we need to work together to fight bias in our algorithms, make sure we think of the user experience and how technology affects us, and consider the role humans play in a world that is becoming increasingly automated. Dr. Rumman Chowdhury: “I recognize and want a world in which people make decisions that I disagree with, but they are making those decisions fully informed, fully capable. Whether it's being able to derive meaning from the systems we've created, or understanding what our meaning is, or what our purpose is as a human being, and not having that be shaped or guided by other forces.” Dr. Chris Gilliard: “We really need to think about the effects of these things. Like, what are the potential harms of this thing? Before you put it out, right? When [REDACTED] came out and said, ‘we had no idea that people would use it to spread racism and misogyny!' …they could have done that work, right? One of the things I've seen that does give me a little bit of hope is that there are more and more people not only saying that we have to do that work, but being inside these companies and actually holding them accountable for doing it.” Rahaf Harfoush: “For me I think the reality is that everything that has the capacity to help us can also simultaneously hurt us in some new and different ways. I don't necessarily think about what's gonna help humanity, I think about, ‘what challenges are gonna emerge from this technology, and how can we navigate that?'.” The first season of this podcast featured a number of interviews with some of today's top thinkers, experts, and educators in the field of technology, with one guest interview per episode. From season 2 onward, every episode will instead focus on a key area of the intersection of technology and humanity, and the ways technology is changing and shaping the human experience. Each episode will feature multiple guests, featuring clips pulled from season one, as well as brand-new interviews that haven't been and won't be released on the podcast. Together, we'll be tackling big ideas about how to make the future a brighter place for everyone. The guests you heard in this episode were, respectively, Emma Bedor Hiland, Oluwakemi Olurinola, Dorothea Baur, Rumman Chowdry, Chris Gilliard, and Rahaf Harfoush. You can hear more from them and all my guests in past and future episodes of the podcast, or find full interviews at TheTechHumanist.com.

In this episode, Kathleen Cohen an ​​XR Immersive Tech & Experience Strategist and Tech Humanist at The Collaboratorium dives into her work in XR storytelling. Having just completed an art residency as part of the University of Idaho's Virtual Technology & Design Research Lab focused on tech humanism, Kathleen asked questions inside virtual worlds focusing on indigenous peoples in Northern Idaho and neurodivergent individuals in Boise to explore questions like, “What makes up you?” and “What is real?” and, “Can creating identity in a virtual space preserve and better clarify identity in that space and/or for us as a physical community?” Learn more about her work at https://www.kathleencohen.com/

Kate O'Neill is an executive strategist, the Founder and CEO of KO Insights, and author dedicated to improving the human experience at scale.  In this paradigm-shifting discussion, Kate traces her roots from a childhood thinking heady thoughts about language and meaning to her current mission as ‘The Tech Humanist'. Following this thread, Kate illustrates why meaning is the core of what makes us human. She urges us to champion meaningful innovation and reject the notion that we are victims of a predetermined future.Challenging simplistic analysis, Kate advocates for applying multiple lenses to every situation: the individual and the collective, uses and abuses, insight and foresight, wild success and abject failure. Kimberly and Kate acknowledge but emphatically disavow current norms that reject nuanced discourse or conflate it with ‘both-side-ism'. Emphasizing that everything is connected, Kate shows how to close the gap between human-centricity and business goals. She provides a concrete example of how innovation and impact depend on identifying what is going to matter, not just what matters now. Ending on a strategically optimistic note, Kate urges us to anchor on human values and relationships, habituate to change and actively architect our best human experience – now and in the future.A transcript of this episode can be found here.Thank you for joining us for Season 2 of Pondering AI. Join us next season as we ponder the ways in which AI continues to elevate and challenge our humanity. Subscribe to Pondering AI now so you don't miss it.

Have you ever wondered what it means to be a humanist in the age of technology? How can we put human values into a machine? How can we even know what those human values are? We asked Kate O'Neill, founder of KO Insights and author of the Tech Humanist, this question and found that there's a lot to work with when it comes to understanding humans and what they might want their machines to do. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit artificiality.substack.com

About this episode's guest: Art Chang is a mayoral candidate for the city of New York. The son of Korean immigrants and father of 2 boys, Art Chang has spent the last 35 years working as a professional problem solver in NYC. He's built a dozen startups in the city, all focused on using technology […]

Kate founded {meta} Marketer in 1999, developed Toshiba America‘s first intranet, is the author of 4 books including her latest, “Tech Humanist” (which was featured at CES 2019), and was recently named to the 2020 Thinkers50 Radar, a global ranking of management thinkers. Episode Timeline 6:00 And so it begins... 8:45 I got indoctrinated into MUDs 11:00 I remember getting tingles on the back of my neck! 14:05 What made you want to be a part of the Internet? 16:00 Toshiba recruited me to come to San Francisco 19:15 The next interesting pivot was Netflix... this '98 22:15 I was still drive by curiosity about everything! 25:00 "Relevance" was what we were going for 27:15 Relevance is a form of respect 29:00 Discretion is too... Balance how much we know about you 33:00 What got your juices going in those early days? 36:00 You could be a generalist 40:30 Impact of technology on people... The Future of Work 41:45 What have you retained from those early days? 45:25 I just became allergic to mangos! 46:30 You're going to love this... 49:30 I was at Magazines.com leading up customer experience... 52:20 So where are we now?

About this episode's guest: Futurist, speaker, and author Cathy Hackl is a globally recognized augmented reality, virtual reality and spatial computing thought leader. She's been named one of the top 10 Tech Voices on Linkedin for two years in a row, the highest honor on the platform. She currently works as part of the Enterprise […]

About this episode's guest: Caleb Gardner, who in his more than a decade of experience in digital leadership, entrepreneurship, and social impact, has worked for a variety of organizations in the public and private sectors, including at prestigious professional service firms like Bain & Company and Edelman. During the second Obama Administration, he was the […]

About this episode's guest: Yaël is a thought leader, democracy activist and strategist working with governments, tech companies, and investors focused on the intersection of ethics, tech, democracy, and policy. She has spent 20 years working around the globe as a CIA officer, a White House advisor, the Global Head of Elections Integrity Operations for […]

About this episode's guest: Abhishek Gupta is the founder of Montreal AI Ethics Institute (https://montrealethics.ai ) and a Machine Learning Engineer at Microsoft where he serves on the CSE Responsible AI Board. He represents Canada for the International Visitor Leaders Program (IVLP) administered by the US State Department as an expert on the future of […]

About this episode's guest: Neil Redding is Founder and CEO of Redding Futures—a boutique consultancy that enables brands and businesses to engage powerfully with the Near Future. His rare multidisciplinary perspective draws on the craft of software engineering, the art of brand narrative and expression, and the practice of digital-physical experience strategy. Prior to founding […]

About this episode's guest: Ana Milicevic is an entrepreneur, media executive, and digital technology innovator. She is the co-founder and principal of Sparrow Advisers, a strategic consultancy helping marketers and C-suite executives navigate the data-driven adtech and martech waters. A pioneer of digital data management in advertising, Ana was responsible for the development of the […]

About this episode's guest: Sarah T. Roberts is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Information Studies, Graduate School of Education & Information Studies, at UCLA. She holds a Ph.D. from the iSchool at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Prior to joining UCLA in 2016, she was an Assistant Professor in the Faculty of Information and Media Studies at Western University in London, Ontario for three years. On the internet since 1993, she was previously an information technology professional for 15 years, and, as such, her research interests focus on information work and workers and on the social, economic and political impact of the widespread adoption of the internet in everyday life. Since 2010, the main focus of her research has been to uncover the ecosystem – made up of people, practices and politics – of content moderation of major social media platforms, news media companies, and corporate brands. She served as consultant to and is featured in the award-winning documentary The Cleaners, which debuted at Sundance 2018 and aired on PBS in the United States in November 2018. Roberts is frequently consulted by the press and others on issues related to commercial content moderation and to social media, society and culture, in general. She has been interviewed on these topics in print, on radio and on television worldwide including: The New York Times, Associated Press, NPR, Le Monde, The Atlantic, The Economist, BBC Nightly News, the CBC, The Los Angeles Times, Rolling Stone, Wired, The Washington Post, Australian Broadcasting Corporation, SPIEGEL Online, and CNN, among many others. She is a 2018 Carnegie Fellow and a 2018 recipient of the EFF Barlow Pioneer Award for her groundbreaking research on content moderation of social media. She tweets as @ubiquity75. This episode streamed live on Thursday, October 1, 2020. Here's an archive of the show on YouTube: About the show: The Tech Humanist Show is a multi-media-format program exploring how data and technology shape the human experience. Hosted by Kate O'Neill. Subscribe to The Tech Humanist Show hosted by Kate O'Neill channel on YouTube for updates. Transcript 01:43all right01:44hey humans01:48how we doing out there come on in start01:50gathering around the uh the old digital01:52campfire01:54let me hear from those of you who are in01:55line uh right now tell me01:57tell me who's out there and tell me01:59where you're tuning in from02:01i hope you're starting to get your02:02questions and thoughts ready02:04for our guest i'm sure many of you have02:06already seen who our guest is and i'll02:07be reading her bio here in just a moment02:09so start thinking of your questions02:11about commercial content moderation and02:13what you want to02:14know about that and you know all that02:17kind of stuff02:18uh i hear sarah laughing in the02:19background it's not to laugh02:22really good valid questions i think i02:25was just snorting02:26honestly through my uh through my sinus02:29trouble02:30so uh welcome to those of you who are02:32all tuned in welcome to the tech02:34humanist show this is a multimedia02:36format program02:37exploring how data and technology shape02:39the human experience02:41and i am your host kate o'neil so i hope02:44you'll subscribe and follow wherever02:45you're catching this02:46so that you won't miss any new episodes02:49i02:50am going to introduce our guest here in02:51just a moment uh one one last shout out02:53if anybody's out there wanting to say hi02:56feel free02:56you are welcome to comment and i see a02:59bunch of you03:00online so feel free to tune uh03:03comment in and tell me who you are and03:05where you're tuning in from03:07but just get those you know type in03:08fingers warmed up because we're gonna03:10want you to03:10to weigh in with some questions and03:12comments as the show goes on03:14but now i'll go ahead and introduce our03:17esteemed guest so today we have the03:19very great privilege of talking with03:21sarah t roberts who03:22is an assistant professor in the03:24department of information studies03:26graduate school of education and03:28information studies at ucla03:30she holds a phd from the ischool at the03:32university of illinois urbana-champaign03:34my sister's school i went to university03:36of illinois chicago03:38prior to joining ucla in 2016 she was an03:40assistant professor03:42in the faculty of information and media03:44studies at western university in london03:46ontario for three years03:47on the internet since 1993 she was03:50previously an information technology03:52professional for 15 years and as such03:54her research interests focus on03:56information work and workers and on the03:58social03:59economic and political impact of the04:01widespread adoption of the internet in04:02everyday life right totally04:06so since 2010 the main focus of her04:08research has been to uncover the04:10ecosystem04:11made up of people practices and politics04:14of content moderation of major social04:16media platforms04:17news media companies and corporate04:19brands04:20she served as consultant tune is04:21featured in the award-winning04:22documentary04:23the cleaners which debuted at sundance04:26201804:27and aired on pbs in the united states in04:29november04:30 so roberts is frequently consulted04:33by the press and others on issues04:34related to commercial content moderation04:36and to social media society and culture04:38in general04:39she's been interviewed on these topics04:41in print on radio04:42on television worldwide and now on the04:44tech humanist show04:45uh including the new york times04:47associated press npr04:48le monde the atlantic i mean this list04:50is going to go on and on so04:52buckle in folks the economist bbc04:55rolling stone wired and picking and04:57choosing now it's a really really04:59impressive list of media05:00she's a 2018 carnegie fellow and a 201805:04recipient of the eff barlow05:06pioneer award for her groundbreaking05:08research on content moderation05:10of social media so audience again please05:12start getting your questions ready for05:13our outstanding guest05:15please do note as a live show i well05:17i'll do my best to vet comments and05:19questions in real time05:20we may not get to all of them but very05:23much appreciate05:24you being here tuned in and05:25participating in the show so with that05:27please welcome uh our dear guest05:31sarah t roberts and you are live on the05:34show05:34sarah thank you so much for being here05:37thank you uh05:38thanks for the invitation and thanks to05:40your audience and05:41uh all those interested folks who are05:44spending time with us today i'm really05:45grateful05:46for the opportunity we've already got uh05:48david polgar05:49saying excited for today's talk hey our05:52buddy05:53dave drp05:54[Laughter]05:56all right so i wanna talk right away05:59about your um06:01your book behind the screen i i hadn't06:03had a chance to read and until i was06:05preparing for the06:06show and it was it was wonderful to get06:07a chance to dig into your research06:09so tell us a little bit about that came06:11out last year is that right06:13um yeah it just just a little over a06:15year ago uh06:16came out on on yale university press06:19um you know the academic06:23publishing cycle is its own beast it's06:25its own world06:26it uh as it relates to06:29um kind of like journalism and and06:31mainstream press timelines it's much06:33slower06:34that said uh i wrote the book in about a06:37year which is about a normal06:39a normal cycle but it took about eight06:42years to put together the research that06:44went into the book06:46and this is because when i started my06:48research in 201006:50which you know we say 2010 it seems like06:53yesterday that was a decade ago now06:55you know if we're in terminable 202006:59you know which is which is a million07:01years long so far but07:03back in 2010 when i started looking into07:05this topic as a07:07as a doctoral researcher at the07:09university of illinois07:10uh you know there were a lot of things07:12stacked against that endeavor07:14including the fact that i was a doctoral07:16student at the university of illinois i07:17had no cachet i had very few07:20like material resources um you know to07:23finance07:24a study that would require uh07:27at the end of the day required going07:29around the world quite literally07:32but maybe the biggest barrier at the07:34time was the fact07:36that i was still fighting an uphill07:38battle trying to tell people07:40that major mainstream social media07:43platforms07:44were engaged in a practice that is now07:47weirdly um you know a phrase that you07:51might say around the dinner table and07:52everyone would get which is content07:54moderation07:55and that further when i would um raise07:58the issue08:00and and bring up the fact that firms08:01were engaged in this practice which08:04you know has to do with the adjudication08:06of people's08:08self-expression online and sits08:10somewhere between users08:13and the platform and then the platform's08:15recirculation of users material08:18uh you know people would argue with me08:20at that point08:22about the fact that that practice would08:24even go on08:25and then when i would say that uh you08:27know kind of offer08:28incontrovertible proof that in fact it08:30did go on uh08:32then we would uh find ourselves in a08:34debate about whether or not08:36it was a legion of human beings08:40who was undertaking this work or uh in08:43fact it was computational08:45now in 2010 in 2020 the landscape is08:48complicated but in 201008:51the technology and the sort of08:53widespread adoption08:54of of computational uh08:58automated let's say algorithmic kinds of09:01content moderation or machine learning09:03and forum content moderation was not a09:05thing09:05it was humans and so i had to start the09:09conversation09:10so far below baseline09:14that it you know it took uh it took09:17quite a lot of effort just to get09:19everybody on the same page to discuss it09:22and you know when i'm talking about09:24uh engaging in these conversations i09:27mean just like trying to vet this as a09:29as an appropriate research topic at the09:32graduate school you know what i mean09:34like to get faculty members09:36many of whom were world experts in in09:39various aspects of uh of the internet or09:42of09:42media or information systems themselves09:46um it was new to them too that was did09:49you originally frame it was it it's a09:51question of how09:52is this done or what was the original09:54framework of that question yeah09:56so i'll tell you a little bit about the09:57origin of why i got interested10:00and it's something that i write about in10:01the book because i think it's so10:03important to acknowledge kind of those10:06those antecedents i had read i was10:08actually teaching down at the university10:10of illinois in the summer10:12of 2010 and i was on a break from10:15teaching and10:16you know probably drinking a latte which10:18is what i'm doing right now10:19and um and uh uh reading the paper i was10:23reading the new york times and there was10:24a very small10:26uh but compelling article in the new10:28york times about a group of workers10:30who were there there were a couple of10:32sites they mentioned but there was in10:33particular a group of workers in rural10:35iowa well here i was sitting in rural10:38central illinois thinking about this10:40group of workers in rural iowa as10:42profiled in this piece10:44who were in fact engaging in what we now10:46know as commercial content moderation10:48they were working10:49in effectively a call center uh10:53adjudicating content for unnamed kind of10:55you know10:56media sites websites and social media10:59properties11:00and i kind of circulated that article11:03around i shared it with friends i shared11:05it with my colleagues and i shared it11:06with professors and11:07the argument that i made was that it was11:10it was multifaceted first of all it11:12sounded like a miserable11:14job and guess what that has been borne11:16out it is a11:17very difficult and largely unpleasant11:20job11:21uh so i was captivated by that fact that11:24there were these you know11:25unnamed people who a generation or two11:28ago would have been on a family farm11:30who were now in the quote unquote11:32information economy but seemed to be11:34doing11:34a drag just awful work11:38uh but also there was this bigger issue11:41of11:42uh you know really having this this big11:44reveal11:45of the of the actual11:48ecosystem an unknown here for unknown11:51portion of the social media ecosystem11:54effectively letting us know how the11:56sausage was being made right11:58and yet if you were to look at any of12:01the12:02the uh the social media platforms12:05themselves or any of the discourse at12:06really high levels in12:08industry or in regulatory bodies this12:11was not12:12this was a non-starter but i was was12:14arguing at the time12:16that how content was being adjudicated12:18on the platforms12:20under what circumstances under what12:23conditions and under what policies was12:25in fact12:27maybe the only thing that mattered at12:29the end of the day12:30right now in 2010 that was a little bit12:32of a harder case to make12:34by 2016 not so much after we saw the uh12:38the ascent of donald trump in the united12:40states we saw brexit12:42we saw uh this the rise of bolsonaro and12:45in brazil largely12:46uh attributed to um12:49social media campaigns there and kind of12:52discontinued sustained12:54support through those channels uh and12:57here we are in 2020 where uh13:00we might argue or we might claim that13:02misinformation and disinformation online13:04is one of the primary13:06concerns of civil society today13:09and i would put front and center13:13in those all of those discussions13:16the fact that social media companies13:18have this incredible immense power13:20to decide what stays up and what doesn't13:24and how they do it and who they engage13:27to do it13:28should actually be part of the13:30conversation if not13:31i would argue that it's a very13:33incomplete conversation so when i talk13:35about like the13:36scholarly publishing cycle it took a13:39year to put the book out right but it13:40took eight years to amass the evidence13:44to um to do the to the interviews and13:47media that you mentioned13:48to converse with industry people at the13:51top levels eventually but13:52you know starting at the bottom with the13:54workers themselves to find workers who13:56are willing13:56to talk to me and break those13:58non-disclosure agreements that they were14:00under um and to kind of create also14:04a a locus of activity for other14:07researchers and scholars and activists14:09who are also interested in in uncovering14:12uh this area and really sort of create14:14co-create a field of study so that's14:17what took eight years it took a year to14:18get the book out14:19um but all that legwork of proving in a14:22way14:23that this mattered took a lot longer i14:25don't have to make that same case14:27anymore14:27as i'm sure you you can imagine um14:30people people are interested they're14:33concerned14:34and um they want to know more they're14:36demanding a lot more14:38um from firms as users14:41you know as people who are now engaged14:43in social media in some aspect14:45of their lives every day need i say more14:48about zooming14:49constantly which is now our you know our14:52primary14:53medium of connection for so many of us14:55in our work lives even14:57yeah hey we already have a question from15:00our buddy drp david ryden-polgar let me15:04uh15:04put this against the background we can15:06actually see it here uh15:08he says sarah would love to hear your15:10thoughts on section 2315:12230 and how any potential changes would15:15impact content moderation15:16so we're going right in right deep yeah15:19really15:20so um let me try to flush that out a15:22little bit15:24for others who aren't um you know inside15:26quite as as deep15:28um section 230 is15:31a part of the uh communications decency15:34act which goes back to 1996 but15:36effectively what what anyone needs to15:38know about section 230 is that15:40it's the it it's sort of the legal15:42framework15:43that informs social media companies15:48rights and responsibilities around15:51content15:52when we think about legacy media um15:55so-called uh broadcast television for15:58example or other other forms of of media16:01that we consume16:02you know i always bring up the the16:04example of george carlin who16:06famously um uh16:10you know made a career out of the seven16:12dirty words that you couldn't say16:13on radio right so there are all kinds16:16of governing uh16:19legal and other kinds of norms about16:22what is allowed and disallowed in some16:24of these legacy media16:26when it comes to social media however16:30there is a pretty16:35drastically contrasted permissiveness16:38that is in place uh that16:41seeds the power of the decision-making16:44around16:45what is allowable and what is not16:46allowable to the platforms themselves so16:49this is a really different kind of16:50paradigm right16:52and it's section 230 that allows that16:54that's the16:55that's the precedent that's the that's16:57the guidance uh16:58legally that uh that provides that kind17:01of17:02uh both responsibility and discretion17:05and what it does is it allows the17:07companies17:08um to make their own decisions17:12effectively17:13about what policies they will follow17:15internally now this doesn't go for17:17every single piece of content you know17:18one of the the biggest examples that17:21uh that this does not cover is child17:24sexual exploitation material which is17:25just illegal full stop it doesn't matter17:28if platforms wanted to traffic in that17:30material or not it's illegal17:32but beyond that just to certain to a17:35certain extent what section 230 allows17:38is for platforms to redistribute17:42effectively material that other people17:44submit17:45uh without being held liable for that17:47material17:48and so if we think about that that's17:50actually the business model of social17:51media17:52the business model of social media is to17:54get other people to create content17:56upload it circulate it and engage with17:59it download it18:00and effectively the platforms have um18:03you know argued and claimed that they18:04are really18:05you know don't kill the messenger right18:07like they're just like the18:08the the apparatus by which this material18:10gets shared18:12i think that um18:15you know at one time that really made18:16sense particularly when the18:18when this uh when the communications18:20decency act was passed and this goes18:22back in18:23into the mid 90s when what was18:26kind of imagined as needing this this18:29uh reprieve from liability was an isp an18:33internet service provider18:35which at that time uh i guess the most18:38imaginative version of that you could18:40think of would be america online for18:41those of you who18:42remember that on the program shout out18:45to the aol days yeah18:47right aol like all the you know the18:49discs and cd-roms you got and used as18:51coasters18:52um but you know back in that time but an18:55internet service provider really was a18:57pass-through in some cases you know i18:58knew a guy who ran an isp locally19:01he really just had a room with a with a19:03huge internet pipe coming in19:06and a wall of modems and you would dial19:08up through your modem and connect19:10through and then be on the internet to19:11some other service19:12so that was the model then but the model19:15now19:15uh is you know multi-billion dollar19:19transnational corporations19:21uh who have immense power in decision19:24making around content19:26and yet are are uh19:29in the american context at least largely19:32not liable for those decisions19:34uh legally or or otherwise um19:38making incredibly powerful19:42decisions about what kind of material we19:45all see and engage in19:47and what is permissible and what is not19:49online and they do that at their19:50discretion well if they're doing that at19:52their discretion19:54do you think that they're largely going19:56to um19:58fall into a mode of altruism and like20:01what's best20:01for civil society are they going to look20:03at their bottom line20:05and their shareholder demands and20:07respond to that i mean20:09the audience yeah i mean frankly20:12publicly traded companies20:13have a legal mandate to respond to their20:15shareholders and to generate revenue for20:17them so20:18um when those things are at odds when20:20when those things are aligned with20:22what's good for you know20:23america is good for uh facebook's20:26internal policies around content20:28moderation that works out great20:29but if there's you know if ever those20:32two pathways should diverge20:34we know which one they're going to fall20:35under and there's just there's very20:37little20:37um legal consequence or legal uh20:41expectation for uh reporting out on how20:46uh these decisions get made the way that20:48that20:49we have seen more decisions getting uh20:52publicly20:53unveiled through things like um20:56the publication of of what had been21:00previously kind of closely held secret21:03policies internally is through public21:06pressure21:06through the pressure of civil society21:08groups and advocacy groups through the21:10pressure21:11of the public through the pressure and21:13the constant threat of21:15you know things like reform to section21:17230 or other kinds of21:19regulation so it's a very interesting21:23moment and it's interesting to bring up21:24section 230 because21:26again a couple of years ago i had21:28colleagues um21:30who are in uh legal studies and who are21:34you know law professors essentially tell21:36me that 230 would soon be rendered21:38moot anyway because it's just it's it's21:41you know based on um on21:45well it should be solely relevant in the21:47united states right in the jurisdiction21:49of the united states21:50and so because these platforms were21:52going worldwide21:54uh you know there21:57it would be rendered mood well i would21:59say it's actually been the opposite22:00that's right that what is happening is22:02that section 230 is getting bundled up22:04as the norm22:06and is now being promulgated either just22:09through uh through the process of these22:13platforms going global but kind of22:14keeping their americanness and22:16keeping their um their response their22:20you know business practices largely22:22responsible to american laws first and22:24foremost22:25but also even to the point that uh you22:28know it recently22:29has become known i think more and more22:32to people like me who aren't legal22:34scholars but who have a great interest22:36in how this stuff goes down that section22:39230 like language22:41is being bundled up and put into trade22:44agreements22:45uh at the nation state level or22:48you know region level with the united22:50states and trading partners and we know22:52that22:53you know these these trade agreements22:56which have been you know huge hugely22:57politically22:59uh problematic and were a major issue in23:03fact of the 2016 election23:05uh you know they're they're they're23:07anti-democratic i mean how do you even23:09know what's in a trade agreement they're23:10totally secret23:12uh but i i learned while watching a uh23:15uh house uh subcommittee23:19uh convening about section 230 from23:22a highly placed google executive23:26that in fact their their lobbyists are23:28pushing for this kind of language in23:31in these trade agreements so we see that23:33instead of 230 becoming less relevant23:35because of the globalization23:37of american social media platforms it's23:39actually becoming a norm that is now23:42being23:43first of all it was sort of like softly23:45reproduced just because of the spread of23:47these american platforms and23:49how they were doing business but now23:50it's actually becoming codified23:52through other means means like like23:55trade agreements that the public has23:57really no23:58mechanism to intervene upon and i think24:00that's really worrisome24:02what about those mechanisms where the24:04sorry what were you gonna say24:06no okay i was just gonna say that's one24:07of my short and concise professorial24:09answers24:11let me drink a coffee well david24:14uh thanks you for that uh great24:17historical overview and i'm sure24:18the rest of our viewers and listeners do24:20too i i wonder about the ones24:22the the examples that don't have that24:25kind of24:26uh consumer involvement so i'm wondering24:28about for example24:29you know youtube and it's kids content24:32and24:33and so there have been a lot of changes24:35it seems like24:36with regard to that that platform and24:38that subject over the24:40over the last few years so can you maybe24:42give us an overview of24:43how that has gone down um24:46well i think that you know youtube is24:49such an interesting example24:51to talk about for for many reasons uh24:53for its reach and pervasiveness you know24:56it's a24:56market leader for sure it's globality i24:59would also say that youtube is25:01particularly interesting because when we25:04think about25:05uh social media content as being25:10monetized there is no greater25:13and more direct example than youtube25:15where it actually pays people who are25:17really highly successful on the platform25:19for content right25:20so like when there's no kind of like a25:23metaphor there about monetization it is25:25literally monetized right25:27um and this you know just to kind of tie25:30this back to the section 23025:31conversation25:32when we imagined isps as just path25:35pass-throughs you know that was one25:37thing but here we have25:39these huge companies like youtube and25:40others involved actively25:43in production so that kind of like25:46firewall between just being an25:48intermediary and actually being actively25:50engaged in producing media25:51has gone but the there's like a legacy25:54legal environment that it still25:56informs it so youtube you know they pay25:58producers they have these like26:01uh pretty extraordinary studios in26:05in major uh in major26:08cities around the world including la26:10where i live26:12uh they you know they are kind of the26:15go-to outlet and people26:18want to participate in youtube for all26:20sorts of reasons but there's certainly26:21you know a dollar sign reason that26:24people get involved26:25and you bring up this issue of kids26:27content26:28um again here's where we see sort of26:31like the softening and the eroding of26:33regulation too it26:35started it's it's not just youtube i26:36have to confess it's not just26:38social media companies that have eroded26:40uh you know child protections around26:42um media that that goes back to the you26:45know 40 years ago in the reagan26:47administration when there used to be26:48very stringent rules around26:50uh saturday morning cartoons for example26:52and advertising to children that could26:54go on26:55during that time uh shout out to my26:58colleague molly neeson who has worked27:00extensively on that27:01on that particular topic and that27:02erosion so27:05i see uh on on youtube again27:08a lot of the pressure to kind of reform27:11and27:11i think when you're talking about kids27:13content you're talking about27:15some of like some like really disturbing27:17and weird content that was showing up27:20um you know kind of like cheaply made27:22unknown27:23weird creepy sometimes not really27:25clearly27:27necessarily uh27:30benevolently made like you know27:33sometimes creepy sexual undertones27:36uh other kinds of stuff going on you27:38know really and really no way to know27:40that's part of the problem no way to27:42know right um27:43and then uh the massive problem of27:46trying to27:48moderate that material right um you know27:51i think of it27:52as like the the classic story of the the27:55whole27:56springing through the the dyke holding27:58the water back you know27:59you plug one hole another one springs28:02open28:02so it's a little bit falls down so the28:05whole wall28:06and then your inundated that's right28:07that's right and so28:09you know that is a good metaphor to28:10think about the problem of these like28:12kind of isolated28:14uh hot spots that explode on platforms28:17as a new social issue or maybe a new28:21uh a geopolitical conflict erupts28:25somewhere in the world it's you know28:26gets meted out and replicated on social28:28media and attention gets drawn to it28:31and so i think this issue of child28:34content and its kind of exploitive28:35nature and28:36strange nature in some cases was28:38something that advocacy groups and28:40others brought attention to28:41and the platform had to reconfigure and28:44focus on it28:45now i mentioned earlier that you know28:47back in 2010 it really was humans who28:49were doing this work almost exclusively28:50but by 202028:52we are using computational tools28:55to try to deal with content as well28:57although i28:58i'll repeat the quote that i once heard29:00from a reporter29:02who who heard it from a an engineer at a29:05company that shall not be named but it29:06might sound like29:08um you know boo-boob let's say might29:10rhyme with that29:11uh and the quote was uh whatever the29:14algorithm is doing it's29:15not watching the video so you know29:17they're using these computational29:19mechanisms to do all kinds of other29:21stuff but it's not like29:22an algorithm can watch and sense make29:25out of a video it has to look at other29:26stuff29:28so that's an interesting point though29:30too and i want to follow up on that with29:31a question about29:32you know do you do you personally29:34advocate for more29:35ai in the mix of con of content29:38moderation such as you know facebook29:39recently made an announcement that they29:40were using29:41ai to simulate bad actors so that they29:44could train their moderation29:45systems automated moderation systems to29:47more effectively recognize it do you29:49think that that ultimately29:50will work and will benefit the humans29:52who are part of this ecosystem or29:54is it likely to produce unintended ill29:56effects so i mean that's a really great29:59question because that's sort of like the30:0164 000 question about my work if30:04you know one would one would think if my30:05concern is the welfare of workers30:08which has always kind of been my cut in30:10on this topic and where i start and30:11where i come back to an end30:13um then hey wouldn't it be great if30:15tomorrow we could just flip that switch30:16and go30:17to those uh purely computational means i30:20think that30:21in theory right in theory but i think30:24there are a lot of red flags there30:26you know one red flag is that if it's30:29been this difficult30:30as and i kind of laid the groundwork for30:32that at the at the front end of the show30:34to unpack and uncover uh30:37the ecosystem involving humans and i30:39have to say30:40the majority of my work has been30:43reliant upon the willingness of human30:46beings involved in the system30:48to leak essentially to break30:51their non-disclosure agreements and to30:54you know essentially snitch on what they30:56felt was30:58problematic also sometimes what they31:00felt was good about the work they did31:02how do you get uh an algorithm or a31:04machine learning based tool31:06to call a journalist or31:09uh you know do an interview with a31:11researcher31:13i don't know how to do that you know the31:14closest thing we could come to is31:16getting access to it and looking31:18at code but that's not easy to do and31:20it's much harder to do31:22than finding uh and i cannot stress the31:25difficulty of what it was like31:27in the early days to find people willing31:29to talk to me so31:30you know you can't do that with ai how31:32do we how do we audit those tools how do31:34we31:35how do we you know what's the check on31:37power that the firms have with those31:39tools31:40in terms of how they're set up and what31:42they keep in and what they keep31:43out it also sounds like a potentially31:46even greater violation31:47of uh that non-disclosure if someone31:50leaks a bit of code31:51rather than just tell their own personal31:53story oh for sure i mean and and31:56you know the the other thing too that31:58that comes to mind for me is32:00the nature of how these tools work32:03and you know a great worry and i think a32:05legitimate worry of many people in the32:07space32:07is that uh they32:11the tendency to use those tools would be32:13to32:14uh calibrate them32:17to be even uh less permissive let's say32:21or to you know because of their nature32:23they would have less of an32:24ability to look at a given piece of32:27content32:28and you know see that it violates abc32:31policy but understand it in the context32:34of you know again32:35a cultural expression or um32:38you know an advocacy piece around a32:41conflict zone32:42and then make an exception so what we32:44would see32:45is uh more conservative and greater32:49false positives around material that32:52quote unquote is disallowed right32:55again all of this adjudicating to the32:58logic that the firms themselves create33:00which for um for many years itself was33:03opaque33:05uh so this is you know it's not as easy33:08to say unfortunately if we could just33:10get those darn algorithms right if we33:11could just get33:12you know machine learning to get33:13sophisticated enough we could33:16take out the human element and and33:18basically33:19you know save people from having to do33:21this work33:23unfortunately i think it's more33:24complicated than that and i would say33:26that33:26you know bringing up the idea of33:29training machine learning tools as you33:30did33:31one of the gross ironies of this whole33:33thing that i've been33:34monitoring is that uh33:38content moderation commercial content33:40moderation for these major platforms33:42is its own kind of self-fulfilling uh33:46industry that begets uh sub industries33:49in and of itself33:49so that when machine learning tools have33:52come on what needs to happen33:54is that people need to sort data sets to33:56create data sets for the machine33:58learning tools to train on33:59and they need to be themselves trainers34:02and classifiers for the machine learning34:04tools so now we have a whole new stratum34:06of people34:07working to train machine learning34:09algorithms which has them essentially34:11doing a certain kind of content34:12moderation34:13it's a lot easier that cottage industry34:14of evil ai34:16spawn it's like anything like34:19how are we gonna make the ai bad enough34:21to train our ai34:23uh automation systems to recognize that34:25so that we can keep a good environment34:27but then you've got this whole cottage34:29industry around the bad34:30ai seems like a very awkward way of34:32going34:33so you know as someone who monitors like34:36like hiring trends and things like that34:37too34:38i was i was watching companies looking34:41for people to to come be34:42classifiers on data sets which is just34:44moderation before the fact right34:46yeah you know you talked about that in34:48the book too you have34:50you presented a taxonomy of sorts of34:52labor arrangements from34:53in-house moderators to what you call34:56micro labor you know looking at34:58mechanical turk and things like that can34:59you walk us through that a little bit so35:01that we can become familiar with what35:02the35:02the human issues relative to each level35:06yeah one of the one of the early35:07insights i had when i was trying to35:09figure out the contours of this industry35:11from35:11you know the outside and it reminds me35:13of that parable of you know35:15people feeling different parts of the35:16elephant without really being35:18being able to see it and they don't35:19really they don't really get the big35:21picture35:22um was that you know what i was35:24considering as being kind of like a35:26monolithic35:27practice really wasn't it was happening35:28in all kinds of different places and in35:30different guises35:32including using different names like35:33there was no kind of cohesive name to35:35call35:36this this work practice so i started out35:38kind of knowing about these workers35:40in in iowa that i reference in the book35:42and i referenced today35:44who were working in a call center and it35:46turned out that call centers were really35:48a prevalent way35:50that this work was going that it was um35:53you know kind of at somewhat of a remove35:55geographically and organizationally so35:57it'd be kind of like a third party35:59contracted out group of workers36:00somewhere in the world36:02when i started out i knew about the36:03workers in places like iowa florida etc36:06but i soon came to know about workers in36:08places like india36:09or in malaysia or of course key to the36:12book in the philippines36:13so that um that that call center36:16environment for content moderation work36:18is really prevalent36:20and it's global but there are also36:23workers who36:24uh prior to covid we're going every day36:26for example in the bay area down from36:28san francisco on the36:30company buses um and going on site to36:33companies36:34that i describe in the book one that has36:36the you know36:37pseudonym of megatech and is a stand-in36:40for36:40any number of companies in fact i'll36:42just tell you a little anecdote that36:44i've met a lot of people from industry36:46who like over cocktails after meetings36:48will come up to me36:49all from different companies and say36:52we're mega tech aren't we and it's like36:54you know like at least six different36:56corporations think they're making36:57answers36:58yes yes sounds right yeah that tells you37:01something37:02so um you know these people were on site37:05workers they were37:06in you know the belly of the beast37:07essentially they were working37:09in places where there was also uh37:11engineering product development37:13marketing37:14uh communications you know soup to nuts37:16uh37:17although interestingly enough they were37:20also contractors in the case of the37:21books so37:22they still had this differential and37:24lesser status even though they were37:26going on site37:27to the corporate hq you know it still37:31wasn't quite the right badge caller as37:33they described it to me although they37:35thought about the people who were37:36working as contractors and call centers37:38as another kind of worker37:40even though they were essentially very37:43very similar37:44then we had people that i encountered37:47who were37:48you know very entrepreneurial and37:50especially in in sort of the early days37:52were37:52developing a model that looks almost37:56like an ad agency they were37:58independent companies that were starting38:00to specialize in providing content38:02moderation services38:03to other companies and it was a boutique38:05kind of service38:06a specialty service and they would often38:09offer38:10social media management across the board38:13so not only were they offering38:14the removal of content in some cases but38:16they would even38:18offer again in that advertising model38:20the generation of content38:22because believe it or not sometimes you38:24know your auto parts company's facebook38:26page just doesn't38:27generate a lot of organic interest and38:29so you hire a company to come post about38:31how awesome your auto parts company is38:34um likewise if there's a you know as38:37somebody once38:38told me and it's in the book too if you38:40open a hole on the internet it gets38:41filled with38:43bleep with uh you know if you have38:46a web page or you have a facebook page38:48and there's no activity38:49that's like organic or really about what38:51it's supposed to be about i guarantee38:52you that somebody will be posting38:54invective racist comments and so on38:56these boutique firms said38:58to usually to smaller companies hey39:00we'll manage the whole thing we'll39:01delete that stuff39:02we'll generate new stuff for you it'll39:04look organic nobody will really know39:06that that's what we're doing39:07and they were having great success when39:09i talked to them was that generally39:11filed under this sort of banner of user39:12generated content39:14or was it called other things generally39:16um39:17you know it was kind of like a social39:19media management is how they would call39:21couch that and how they would pitch it39:25and uh you know it was like uh hey39:28company x you your business has nothing39:31really to do with social media that's39:33not39:33you know your primary business let us39:35handle it for you39:36and a lot of companies jumped at the39:38chance to kind of outsource that and not39:40deal with it39:41an interesting thing in that kind of39:43bucket of39:44of the taxonomy that you mentioned is39:46that those companies39:48uh in some cases got bought up by39:52ad firms or ad firms have started doing39:54this service as well39:56or they become really really big and39:58successful so there's like a few that40:00kind of40:01uh uh rose to the top and have survived40:05and then you already mentioned this40:07really interesting and and kind of40:09worry some arena where this work goes on40:12which is in the micro labor realm40:14the amazon mechanical turk model40:17uh which is effectively you know digital40:19piece work it's people40:21adjudicating a bit of content here40:23they're often40:25paid a per view or per decision40:28uh and then they try to aggregate enough40:30to make that make sense for them40:31financially40:33and it it turns out although that's40:36supposed to be an anonymous relationship40:38you know savvy mechanical turkers they40:40can figure out who they're working for40:42because a lot of times40:43you know they'd receive a set of of40:46images or other content to adjudicate40:48and like you know the interface was40:50obvious41:00[Music]41:02before and you get those guidelines41:04again then you know yeah41:06that's right so you know i i came to41:09know some folks who were41:10uh you know who themselves sort of began41:13to specialize within41:14mechanical turk and other platforms on41:17this kind of thing and they would seek41:18out this work because they got good at41:20it like you said41:21and they got good at knowing the41:22internal policies and juggling them for41:24all these different firms and41:26began to specialize in this work on that41:28platform41:29i was wondering you know when thinking41:31about this as you mentioned earlier41:33about the41:34the consequences of misinformation41:36especially as we41:37are deep in the process of the us41:40presidential election cycle and41:42i say the u.s because i want to be41:43sensitive to the fact that there are41:44global viewers but i feel like everyone41:46in the world is kind of41:48you know hooked into the u.s41:49presidential election right now41:51and we're all like yeah aren't they41:53right and we're all being subject to41:55you know all of this uh well the the41:58dumpster fire of it all but also the42:00misinformation that accompanies it42:02and so i wonder how should people think42:04and understand the difference between42:07content on social media and content in42:09news media42:10and what are some of the differences in42:12approaches to moderating42:14harmful content and you know kind of42:16just thinking about42:18the access to you know free access to42:21information you know this is kind of a42:23big42:24muddy question i'm not sure i'm42:26articulating very well but42:27hopefully you see the direction of of42:29the um42:30the question that i'm asking her yeah i42:34i'll i'll do my best to respond and we42:36can42:36you know we can you can offer guidance42:40yeah as i go i mean i i think your42:43question in essence is what the hell42:45right yeah42:48information misinformation42:50disinformation the election42:52what the hell and so i think you speak42:54for a global audience when you pose that42:56question and42:58you're right about the u.s election i43:00know uh friends and colleagues who were43:02up early in australia watching it and43:04you know as mortified as we were by the43:06the behavior on display43:08and the other night yes the debate and43:11the kind of the nadir43:12of uh you know american politics in my43:15lifetime is how i described it43:17um you know i i often43:20bring up the the rise of social media43:24as a force in again in american civic43:27life43:29that it's important to not think about43:31it having happened in a vacuum or having43:33happened43:34uh without without43:37um other forces at play and in the other43:40part of my life i43:42am a professor in a program that trains43:44and prepares43:45people for careers and information43:47professions primarily in librarianship43:50and so i know something about the way43:53in which we've seen a gross43:57erosion of the american44:00public sphere and opportunities for44:03people to become informed44:06in places that traditionally have been44:10more transparent more committed to the44:13public good44:13not-for-profit i'm thinking about44:16institutions like public schools44:18and institutions like public libraries44:21so if we were to take44:24you know uh funding a funding graph or44:28something like that and put them44:29together about expenditures or44:31where where money goes in our society we44:34would see44:35you know that off the cliff kind of44:37defunding44:38of of these uh institutions that i just44:41mentioned44:42while we see a rise in social media44:46and what i think that suggests at least44:49to me is that44:50it's not that the american public44:51doesn't have a desire to be informed44:54or to have information sources and i44:56would add to that by the way44:57it's not necessarily in the public44:59sphere in the same way45:00but we have seen total erosion in45:04regional and local journalism too right45:06during the same time right45:08into mega media that's right mega media45:11which45:12you know came about by the shuttering of45:14local news45:15and it there was a time when you know45:17cities like mine i come from madison45:19wisconsin 25045:21000 people yeah they yeah they might45:24have had a a45:25a reporter in dc you know what i mean45:28for our local paper the capitol times45:30which went the way of the dodo some45:33some years ago and that that local paper45:35no longer exists in a print form45:38so there's a whole i mean we could do a45:40whole show on this and you probably45:42shouldn't have me on for the show so45:44apologies to to the users that this45:46isn't my total area of expertise but i'm45:48just trying to connect some dots here45:50for people to make sense of it right45:52right and you know when we think about45:53the differences between social media45:55information circulation and something45:58like journalism46:00agree or disagree with what you read in46:02in in the newspaper or you hear on the46:05news46:06of your choice but there are things46:09there that are not present46:10in the same way in the social media46:12ecosystem uh46:13you know an author name a set of46:16principles by which46:18uh the journalists46:21at least pay lip service to but most of46:24them46:25live by you know that they have been46:27educated46:28to uh to serve and then do so46:31in their work there's editorial control46:34that before stories go to print they46:37have to go through a number of eyes46:38there's fact checking if you've ever you46:41know i've been on the46:42the the side of having been interviewed46:44for journalistic pieces and i get phone46:46calls from fact checkers to make sure46:48that the journalists got46:49right what i think yeah right46:52you think that did you really say xyz46:55yes i did that doesn't exist and you46:57know46:58your your your racist uncle47:00recirculating47:01um god knows what from whatever outlet47:04that is just go those those47:08what we might think of barriers to entry47:10but we also might think of as safeguards47:11are just gone47:13and with all of the other institutions47:16eroded that i mentioned47:17you know public schooling library public47:20libraries and so on the mechanisms that47:22people might use to47:24vet material to understand what it means47:27when they look at a paper of record47:29versus47:32a dubious outlet let's say a dubious47:34internet based outlet47:36and how those uh sources differ those47:39mechanisms to to learn about those47:41things have been eroded as well47:43um is there even a civics class anymore47:45in pu

About this episode's guest: Sarah T. Roberts is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Information Studies, Graduate School of Education & Information Studies, at UCLA. She holds a Ph.D. from the iSchool at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Prior to joining UCLA in 2016, she was an Assistant Professor in the Faculty of […]

About this episode's guest: Marcus Whitney is Founding Partner of Jumpstart Health Investors, the most active venture capital firm in America focused on innovative, healthcare companies with a portfolio of over 100 companies. He is also co-founder and minority owner of Major League Soccer team, Nashville Soccer Club. Marcus is the author of the best-selling […]

About this episode's guest: Renée Cummings is a criminologist and international criminal justice consultant who specializes in Artificial Intelligence (AI); ethical AI, bias in AI, diversity and inclusion in AI, algorithmic authenticity and accountability, data integrity and equity, AI for social good and social justice in AI policy and governance.Foreseeing trends and anticipating disruptions, she's […]

About this episode's guest: Rahaf Harfoush is a Strategist, Digital Anthropologist, and Best-Selling Author who focuses on the intersections between emerging technology, innovation, and digital culture. She is the Executive Director of the Red Thread Institute of Digital Culture and teaches “Innovation & Emerging Business Models” at Sciences Politique's school of Management and Innovation in Paris. […]

About this episode's guest: John C. Havens is Executive Director of the IEEE Global Initiative on Ethics of Autonomous and Intelligent Systems. He is also executive director of the Council on Extended Intelligence (CXI). He previously served as an EVP at a top-ten global PR firm, where he counseled clients like Gillette, HP, and Merck […]

About this episode's guest: Dorothea Baur is a leading expert & advisor in Europe on ethics, responsibility, and sustainability across industries such as finance, technology, and beyond. Her PhD is in NGO-business partnerships, and she's been active in research and projects around sustainable investment, corporate social responsibility, and increasingly, emerging technology such as AI. She's […]

About this episode's guest: Kaitlin Ugolik Phillips is the author of The Future of Feeling: Building Empathy in a Tech-Obsessed World. She is a journalist and editor whose writing on law, finance, health, and technology has appeared in the Establishment, VICE, Quartz, Institutional Investor magazine, Law360, Columbia Journalism Review, Lithub, Scientific American, NY Post, VICE, […]

About this episode's guest: Dr. Safiya Umoja Noble is an Associate Professor at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) in the Department of Information Studies where she serves as the Co-Director of the UCLA Center for Critical Internet Inquiry. She is the author of a best-selling book on racist and sexist algorithmic bias in […]

About this episode's guest: David Ryan Polgar is a leading voice in the areas of tech ethics, digital citizenship, and what it means to be human in the digital age. David is a global speaker, a regular media commentator for national & international press, and a frequent advisor & consultant on building a better tech […]

About this episode's guest: Calli Schroeder is an attorney in privacy/data security, as well as a privacy advocate and self-described “die-hard nerd.” Her brief stint as a wedding singer led her to wonder if she had violated copyright law, an interest which transitioned to tech law broadly and privacy law specifically. While in law school, […]

About this episode's guest: Rumman Chowdhury's passion lies at the intersection of artificial intelligence and humanity. She holds degrees in quantitative social science and has been a practicing data scientist and AI developer since 2013. She is currently the Global Lead for Responsible AI at Accenture Applied Intelligence, where she works with C-suite clients to […]