The Tech Humanist Show

Are you overwhelmed by nonstop change and wondering how to truly thrive in a world shaped by AI and information overload?Tune into the latest Tech Humanist Show episode, where Kate sits down with Frederick Marshall—gardener, CEO, and author of Thrive: The Antidote to Future Shock—to unearth how we can cultivate clarity, resilience, and actual human thriving in our tech-saturated world. Topics covered: Future shock in 2026 and its effects Common leadership misdiagnoses of burnout and overwhelm Strategies for managing information overload and uncertainty The Thrive framework: Priorities, obligations, and noise Observations from top performers across industries Design by subtraction and life “ecosystems” The Super 8 factors for thriving AI as collaborator and human-AI symbiosis Responsible and human-centered AI adoption at work Building thriving business and personal ecosystems Meaning, contribution, and human adaptability Connect with Fred Marshall Episode Chapters: 00:04 Introduction and future shock today01:11 Fred Marshall's background and philosophy02:07 Defining future shock in the modern era04:10 How leaders misdiagnose overwhelm05:31 AI tools and strategic alignment08:07 Design by subtraction—managing time and attention11:05 What top performers do differently12:57 Assumptions, autopilot, and learning15:11 The problem Thrive solves for leaders16:06 Role of AI and personalizing technology for growth18:47 Accelerating learning with AI—cognitive friction21:20 Systems thinking for complexity22:04 The “Super 8” life factors27:02 Meaning, contribution, and purpose30:46 Thriving organizations and business ecosystems33:08 Speed vs. thoughtful strategy in fast-changing times41:43 Human-AI partnership and neural net overlap44:03 What leaders should believe about humans46:51 Why people give hope for the future48:38 Closing and where to find Thrive

How can leaders harness AI in their communication without losing their authentic human touch? Topics covered: The meaning and value of authenticity in leadership The risks and rewards of using AI for executive communication Building trust and executive presence in an AI-mediated world The difference between confidence and certainty for leaders Coaching for on-camera executive presence Communicating vulnerability and clarity under uncertainty The “anti-pitch” approach to introductions Ethical use of AI in relationship building Practical steps for leaders to leverage AI responsibly Connect with: Allison ShapiraWebsiteLinkedInInstagram Episode Chapters: 00:04 Introduction and overview of the Tech Humanist Show00:32 Allison Shapira's background: Opera to executive communication03:39 Why AI for the Authentic Leader—leadership problems and urgency of the moment06:09 Defining authenticity in a leadership and AI context08:40 AI's impact on executive presence—when the tools are “better than us”11:27 Tension between what AI rewards and what leadership requires14:37 Navigating ambiguity and nuance in leadership communication18:33 Projecting confidence versus certainty as a leader20:40 Communicating clarity and maintaining trust amid uncertainty22:27 Over-explaining, under-explaining, and AI’s potential impact23:49 Executive presence on camera and its evolving demands26:27 Societal expectations of leaders' communication skills28:42 Bringing authority and warmth on camera; avoiding “performance” of leadership31:09 The “anti-pitch” idea—rethinking introductions in a tech-driven world34:51 Ethical use of AI in relationship building and values alignment37:18 Practical steps: What leaders should start (and stop) doing with AI38:56 Final takeaways and how to lead authentically in an AI-shaped world40:01 Outro and credits

How can organizations confront their histories of harm before being forced to reckon with them? In this episode, Kate O'Neill is joined by Sarah Federman as they explore the crucial difference between deferred and acknowledged harm, and what real accountability can look like—especially amid today’s AI boom. Topics covered: Reckoning work vs. apologies, CSR, and ESG Corporate accountability for historical harm Inaction versus action in organizational ethics Power asymmetry in AI data center expansion Community impact and responsible leadership The pattern of corporate reckoning across eras Acceleration of accountability in the digital age Building an ethical frame within organizations First moves toward genuine corporate reckoning Maintaining hope while working in harm and accountability Connect with Sarah FedermanWebsiteLinkedInInstagramSarah’s new book: Corporate Reckoning: How Businesses Can Address Historical Wrongs Episode Chapters: 00:04 Introduction and Host Welcome00:35 Guest Introduction: Sarah Federman01:47 Defining Reckoning Work03:00 The Interval Between Harm and Reckoning04:15 The Personal Connection to Reckoning05:27 Deferred Harm and Corporate Inaction06:57 Action, Inaction, and Neutrality08:20 AI Data Centers, Power Asymmetry, and Community Impact10:45 Protest, Creativity, and Avoiding Lazy Solutions12:18 Patterns of Reckoning Across Industries13:03 Ethical Acceleration and Real-Time Accountability15:13 Emergent Accountability Mechanisms16:05 Practical Steps for Responsible Tech Leadership18:22 Institutional Change vs. Performing Change21:11 History, Hope, and The Long Arc of Accountability22:54 Book Details and Where to Connect23:59 Closing and Credits

Are you overwhelmed at work but can’t pinpoint why? Discover how “thought load”—not just workload—may be sabotaging productivity, innovation, and well-being in the tech-driven workplace. Kate O'Neill sits down with Liane Davey—the brilliant mind behind the new book Thought Load—to unpack why work isn't working for so many of us. Topics covered: The concept of thought load and its core components Differences between workload, cognitive load, and thought load How technology and AI impact cognitive and emotional burdens The productivity trap and measuring outcomes vs. outputs Effects of constant digital interruptions on attention and energy The role of feedback and judgment in corporate settings Emotional and cognitive impacts of always-on workplace culture Energy reserves as an operational constraint Organizational interventions to reduce thought load The outcome of conflict debt in high thought load environments Designing safer, more productive workplace conflict Tech tools as both solution and source of mental drain Hope for more innovative and present organizations Connect with Liane DaveyWebsiteInstagramLinkedIn Episode Chapters:00:00 – Introduction and background 00:43 – What is “thought load”? 02:15 – Equation: Cognitive and emotional demands over energy reserves 03:38 – The neuroscience of “treacherous triad” 04:05 – Why workload and thought load are not the same 05:22 – AI's surprising effects on thought load 06:27 – Rethinking productivity: The activity-output-outcome framework 09:08 – Technology's role in multiplying and draining cognitive demand 10:30 – Why managers reward “responsiveness”—and why that’s a trap 13:14 – When tech reduces vs. increases cognitive demands 15:57 – Tech as an emotional burden amplifier 17:02 – The misunderstanding of feedback vs. judgment 18:54 – Social pain and at-scale judgment in digital workplaces 23:20 – The operational significance of energy reserves 28:06 – High-leverage interventions for organizational energy 33:36 – Conflict debt as an outcome of high thought load 35:20 – Making conflict safer and more productive 40:15 – What a tech humanist organization could look like 42:19 – Closing thoughts and hope for the future 43:26 – Book release and where to connect

Are we truly understanding global trade, or just reacting to headlines? Step into a timely, eye-opening conversation on trade, geopolitics, and the systems shaping our global economy with Dmitry Grozoubinski, hosted by Kate O’Neill. Topics Covered: Why global trade is more misunderstood than ever The real forces driving today's trade tensions and disruptions How policy, politics, and economics intersect in trade decisions Common misconceptions about tariffs, supply chains, and globalization The role of trade experts vs. media narratives How trade impacts everyday life more than we realize The challenge of communicating complex global systems simply What recent global events reveal about the fragility of trade systems The future of globalization: shifting, not disappearing Why understanding trade is critical in today's world Connect with Dmitry GrozoubinskiWebsiteLinkedInDmitry's Book: Why Politicians Lie About Trade Episode Chapters: [00:00:04] Introduction to the Tech Humanist Show [00:00:30] Guest Introduction: Dmitry Grozoubinski [00:01:15] Why Trade Is Suddenly Front and Center [00:03:40] Misconceptions About Global Trade [00:06:05] How Trade Policy Actually Works [00:08:50] Tariffs, Politics, and Public Perception [00:12:10] Media Narratives vs. Trade Reality [00:15:25] Supply Chains and Global Interdependence [00:18:40] Trade Tensions and Geopolitical Shifts [00:22:05] Why Trade Is Hard to Communicate [00:26:30] The Fragility of Global Systems [00:30:10] The Future of Globalization [00:33:45] Why Trade Literacy Matters [00:36:20] Where to Connect with Dmitry Grozoubinski [00:36:45] Closing and Credits

Are we letting technology shape our lives, or are we actively choosing how it fits in? Dive into an essential conversation about techno-chauvinism, AI's real-world impacts, and what responsible innovation looks like with Meredith Broussard. Topics Covered: The difference between technological and social decisions The AI hype cycle and shifting perceptions of AI Techno chauvinism and using the right tool for the task The limits of technology in daily life and digital detox trends Hollywood's influence on how we imagine AI Generative AI: how it works, dataset concerns, and hallucinations Unshedification and the realities of deploying generative AI The challenges of responsible AI and data governance Environmental impacts of data centers and generative AI Accountability and diffused responsibility in tech What “better” looks like for technology and society Connect with Meredith BroussardWebsiteLinkedIn Meredith's book: ”More than a Glitch – Confronting Race, Gender, and Ability Bias in Tech” Episode Chapters: [00:00:04] Introduction to the Tech Humanist Show[00:00:30] Guest Introduction: Meredith Broussard[00:01:22] Stories We Tell Ourselves about AI[00:03:50] Biases Embedded in Technology & Techno Chauvinism[00:05:27] The Digital Shift and the Rise of Tech Dependency[00:08:48] Bans, Restrictions, and Nuanced AI Policy[00:10:44] AI Misconceptions vs. Hollywood Influences[00:14:14] Explaining Generative AI in Plain Language[00:17:37] Decision Making and the Fragility of AI Systems[00:20:11] The Realities of Generative AI in the Workplace[00:23:26] Responsible AI and Governance[00:29:03] Longevity and Constant Change in AI Models[00:31:25] AI Safeguards and Global Concerns[00:33:00] Accountability in Distributed Technology[00:34:43] Environmental Impact of Data Centers[00:38:49] What “Better” Looks Like for Tech & Society[00:41:21] Where to Connect with Meredith Broussard[00:41:40] Closing and Credits

What does it really mean to build ethical and inclusive AI—and who gets to decide which problems we solve with technology?Dive into this conversation with Tess Posner as she and Kate O'Neill explore how education, ethics, and diverse voices shape the future of AI. Topics covered:The intersection of AI, education, and responsible technology Early experiences shaping ethical perspectives in tech Critical thinking versus just coding Unintended consequences and ethical frameworks Representation, diversity, and AI bias Organizational approaches to AI ethics Incentives and policies for responsible AI Scaling and challenges of AI literacy Adapting education for future AI challenges Building adaptive organizational cultures Hopeful signals and the next generation of technologists Connect with Tess PosnerAI 4 All WebsiteLinkedIn Episode Chapters:Exploring the Heart of Responsible AI [00:00:05]Early Influences and Tech for Human Flourishing [00:01:16]The Role of Ethics in Technology Education [00:03:33]Embedding Critical Thinking Over Code [00:06:58]Asking Unintended Consequence Questions [00:10:29]Lived Experience Shaping AI Projects [00:13:20]How Diversity Shapes Problem-Solving in AI [00:14:39]Organizational Incentives and Systemic Change [00:18:30]AI Literacy: Scaling, Challenges, and Surprises [00:28:34]Adapting Education and Future Perspectives [00:35:25]Hope, Human Alignment, and Signals to Watch [00:42:14]

What happens when AI makes us more creative—does it also make us more human? Dive into this episode to explore how blending technology and creativity can unlock new potential for individuals, teams, and businesses. Topics covered: Super Creativity: Augmenting human creativity with AI Unlocking creativity in “hidden figures” and backstage roles AI’s impact on solo creators vs. teams and executives Examples of AI expanding creative possibilities (beyond speed) Ethical questions around AI, data, and compensation Skill atrophy and organizational trends AI-powered empathy and psychometrics for presentations The importance of curiosity and space for creativity Practical ways to be more super creative Global perspectives and learning from diverse industries Connect with James TaylorWebsiteYouTubeLinkedInInstagram Episode Chapters: 00:00 – Welcome and Introduction 00:17 – The Promise of AI: What Will We Do with More Time? 00:28 – Meet James Taylor and “Super Creativity” 01:43 – What Is Super Creativity? 03:12 – Human, Team, and Human+Machine Creativity 03:36 – Aha Moment: Highlighting Backstage Creative Heroes 05:14 – Expanding Creativity through AI—Real World Examples 06:13 – Centaur and Cyborg Work Models 07:25 – The Future: Billion Dollar One-Person Businesses 08:20 – Purpose, Ethics, and Creating the Future 09:15 – Solo vs. Teams: Where Is AI Unlocking Creativity? 10:08 – AI Use Cases—from Coding to Healthcare 11:27 – The Transformative Potential of AI 12:52 – Essential Human Skills: Creativity and Critical Thinking 13:16 – AI + Psychometrics in Presentations 14:48 – Using AI for Data-Informed Empathy 16:18 – Digital Twins, Creative Abrasion, and AI Mentoring 18:37 – Boundaries: What James Taylor Won’t Use AI For 20:21 – Skill Atrophy and Tools of Consumption 21:41 – Physical Environment’s Impact on Creativity 23:05 – Values, Ethics, and AI Data Sovereignty 26:09 – AI in Organizations: Productivity, Headcount, and Ethics 27:56 – Practical Norms: Guardrails for AI, Facial Recognition, and Smart Glasses 29:47 – Creativity and Global Perspectives 30:42 – Staying Original and Leveraging AI as a Team 32:14 – Cross-Industry Learning and Boundary Crossing 33:44 – Super Creativity Applied 34:56 – Learning from Domain Experts and Other Speakers 35:26 – Books as Powerful Information Devices 36:40 – Practical Steps for Super Creativity 40:12 – Where to Find James Taylor and Closing Remarks

What happens when technology doesn’t just restore light sensitivity, but actually brings back the ability to perceive forms, patterns, and meaning for those who’ve lost their sight? Dive into this episode as we explore how breakthroughs in retinal prostheses are reshaping human experience. Topics covered: The difference between light sensitivity and form vision How the Prima retinal prosthesis works Wireless design and integration with natural vision Selective stimulation and preserving retinal code Challenges in encoding vision and lessons from animal to human trials Patient perspectives and life impact Upgrading implants and future breakthroughs Comparing biological and electronic restoration approaches The meaning of vision for identity, independence, and connection The hope and future of vision restoration worldwide Connect with Professor Daniel PalankerStanford MedicineLinkedIn Episode Chapters: 00:05 Introduction to The Tech Humanist Show 00:17 Surprises in clinical trials and complexity of vision 00:41 The impact of vision and restoration 01:14 Episode arc and Professor Palanker’s breakthrough 02:02 Welcoming Professor Daniel Palanker 02:10 Prima system restores form vision 02:55 Distinct lived experience between light sensitivity and form vision 03:10 Examples of restored capability and simultaneous vision 04:49 How Prima works at the chip-glasses-human interface 05:01 Disease background: Age-related macular degeneration 07:01 External augmented reality glasses explained 08:21 Why Prima is wireless 10:13 Implant design and surgical simplicity 11:21 Preserving peripheral vision and the “don’t fix what’s not broken” philosophy 12:53 Selective retinal stimulation and proper encoding 14:37 Vision processing features and their importance 17:54 Brain’s interpretation of signals and meaning 19:22 Challenges of encoding further from the source 21:58 Journey: Concept to clinical implementation 26:17 Impact for patients—stories and real-world uses 28:03 Resolution, experience, and what higher resolution unlocks 31:20 Testing new indications and upgradable implants 32:32 Biological vs. electronic approaches and collaboration 35:13 Philosophical meaning of vision for identity and connection 37:26 Hope for the future of vision restoration 40:06 Market future and product evolution 40:39 Episode wrap-up and gratitude

What does it truly mean to see—and how close are we to restoring sight for those who have lost it? Dr. Lauren Ayton shares her journey at the frontier of vision restoration, from leading Australia’s first bionic eye trial to navigating the ethical, scientific, and personal dimensions of bringing sight back. Topics covered: The meaning of “seeing” and how the brain constructs vision Personal motivations behind vision restoration research The evolution of bionic eyes and retinal implants From basic science to technological intervention in vision Ethical dilemmas in emerging vision restoration technologies Patient experiences regaining sight and decision-making in trials Challenges of public perception vs. scientific reality Incremental innovation vs. paradigm shifts in medical science Importance of access, equity, and foundational care Designing technology for real human needs and capabilities Connect with Dr. Lauren AytonLinkedInCentre for Eye Research Australia Episode Chapters:00:00 – Introduction: What does it mean to see?01:45 – Dr. Lauren Ayton's personal journey and driving questions03:35 – Career: Academia, startup life, and innovation in vision science05:27 – The complexity and subjectivity of vision07:08 – What happens when vision is restored? Patient experiences08:52 – Scientific breakthroughs that made sight restoration imaginable10:37 – The science behind bionic eyes, retinal implants, and gene therapy12:30 – Suprachoroidal approach in Australia's first in-human bionic eye trial13:59 – Ethics of risk, hope, and consent in experimental medicine15:56 – Supporting patients through uncertainty and high-stakes decisions17:26 – Managing expectations: Public perception vs. current scientific reality20:08 – Incremental change, paradigm shifts, and multidisciplinary collaboration22:00 – Translation: From brilliant ideas to real-world impact24:06 – Access, equity, and the bigger picture of vision care25:48 – Human-driven innovation: Designing for dignity, capability, and real needs27:30 – Lessons from vision science about clarity, perception, and what we miss28:52 – The future: What's possible in 10–20 years of vision restoration30:19 – Ethical reminders for the path ahead31:44 – Dr. Lauren Ayton's takeaways: Centering humans and aiming high32:57 – How to support or get involved in vision research33:45 – What's keeping Dr. Lauren Ayton hopeful34:46 – Closing and credits

What does it truly mean to see—and how can technology restore one of our most essential human senses? In this episode, Dr. José-Alain Sahel joins Kate O’Neill to reveal the breakthroughs in vision restoration, and how these innovations are shaping the future of human experience. Topics Covered: Optogenetic therapy and vision restoration Artificial retina technology Scientific and patient journey of regaining sight Convergence of AI, neuroscience, and medical devices Philosophy of sight and perception Natural vs. artificial boundaries in biotech Balancing innovation and patient safety Strategies for treating different stages of blindness Meaning and legacy of vision technologies Connect with: Dr. José-Alain SahelThe Eye & Ear Foundation of PittsburghUPMC Enterprises Episode Chapters: 00:00:05 – Welcome to the Tech Humanist Show 00:01:14 – Introduction of Dr. José-Alain Sahel 00:02:29 – 2021 Optogenetic Vision Restoration Breakthrough 00:02:46 – Recent Artificial Retina Breakthrough (2025) 00:03:47 – The First Patient's Experience 00:06:31 – Explaining the Technology: Algae Proteins & Retinal Cells 00:09:00 – Scientific Process: Failures, Persistence, and Progress 00:10:13 – How the Goggles Work 00:11:03 – Training the Brain to Interpret New Visual Input 00:11:24 – The Patient's Story: From Blindness to Seeing Again 00:16:07 – Philosophical Perspective on Sight and Perception 00:20:02 – Measuring Human Experience in Vision Restoration 00:23:26 – Natural vs. Artificial: Ethics and Human Augmentation 00:26:19 – Balancing Innovation with Patient Safety in Clinical Trials 00:29:53 – Complementary Strategies for Blindness Treatment 00:31:34 – Vision, Meaning, and Human Flourishing 00:34:41 – Where to Find More About Dr. Sahel's Work 00:35:49 – Episode Credits & Outro

What if the real future-of-work crisis isn't about technology replacing humans—but organizations pushing out workers just when their wisdom is needed most? In this episode, Kate O'Neill and Dan Pontefract explore the urgency of rethinking age in the workplace, longevity, and designing meaningful work for six-decade careers. Topics covered: Age and longevity in the workforce Fluid vs. crystallized intelligence The demographic “age debt” challenge AI and human intelligence collaboration Multidirectional, time-flexible careers Rethinking succession planning and wisdom transfer Designing learning ecosystems Evolution of purpose throughout a career Concrete steps leaders can take to turn age debt into dividends Connect with Dan PontefractWebsiteLinkedInYouTubeInstagramTikTokDan’s new book – “The Future is Grey” Episode Chapters:00:05 Welcome and Introduction00:36 The Real Crisis: Age and Work02:01 Dan's Wake-Up Call: Fired at 5003:39 Longevity vs Organizational Blind Spots06:10 Lessons from Japan: The Age Canary07:14 Chief Longevity Officers: Action or Gray Washing?09:42 Fluid & Crystallized Intelligence in the Age of AI14:10 Rivers, Rocks, and Rubies: Beyond Generational Stereotypes18:09 Building Multi-Directional Careers22:00 “Gray” Means Embracing the In-Between22:44 Succession Planning vs Wisdom Transfer26:46 Learning Ecosystems for All Ages30:06 How Purpose Evolves Over Time33:01 3 Steps for Leaders: Actionable Guidance37:11 How to Use Rivers, Rocks, & Rubies in Practice39:11 Dan's Personal “Gray” Future42:01 What's Next for Dan and Final Thoughts43:26 Closing and Where to Connect

What if the “soft skills” we often overlook are actually the most strategic—and essential—in the age of AI? In this episode, leadership expert Dr. Bushra Khan and host Kate O’Neill explore the power and business impact of emotional intelligence, challenging outdated leadership myths and redefining what skills matter most for future-ready teams. Topics Covered: Why “soft skills” should be called “strategic skills” Emotional intelligence as a leadership framework Evidence-based emotional intelligence in organizations Critical thinking, persuasion, and influence for tech leaders Challenging the myth of micromanagement Culture's impact on leadership assumptions Candor vs. bluntness in high-stakes communication Balancing bravery and kindness in decision making Practical approaches to EI skill-building in companies Finding hope and optimism in leadership Connect with: Dr. Bushra KhanLinkedinWebsite Episode Chapters: 00:00:05 – Welcome & redefining soft skills 00:00:37 – Emotional intelligence as leadership 00:01:20 – Reframing skills for a tech-driven world 00:01:55 – Why “soft” is inadequate and damaging 00:02:49 – Strategic skills vs. technical expertise 00:04:33 – Critical thinking & real-life practice 00:05:43 – Evidence-based EI: Research & impact 00:06:05 – Describing great leaders (EI in action) 00:08:47 – EQ vs. IQ & technical skills 00:11:06 – The emotional intelligence framework 00:12:34 – Making EI accessible in everyday life 00:13:24 – The myth of micromanagement 00:15:46 – Coaching, mentoring, and trust 00:17:13 – Cross-context skills: work, life, community 00:17:43 – Leadership mental models across cultures 00:18:35 – Cultural differences in trust and hierarchy 00:22:23 – Candor, clarity, and high-stakes communication 00:23:14 – Building trust for high-pressure moments 00:26:33 – Balancing bravery and kindness 00:29:29 – EI is not just being nice—using frameworks 00:31:34 – Practical “how” for applying EI 00:32:07 – Why companies should invest in human skills 00:32:41 – Making skills training bite-sized and evidence-based 00:35:44 – Key takeaways & actionable advice 00:36:23 – Finding hope and optimism in leadership 00:39:53 – Gratitude and closing remarks

What are the questions only humans can ask in an age where AI seems to have all the answers? In this episode, Kate O’Neill and futurist Ben Pring dive deep into the uniquely human skills and judgments that technology can’t replicate, and explore how leaders and organizations can navigate uncertainty, ask better questions, and shape a more human-centered future. Topics covered:Placing today's AI advancements in historical context How technology replaces skill with judgment The value of asking better questions in an AI-driven world Why leaders avoid tough decisions about humans vs. machines How incentives and alignment shape organizational outcomes The policy gaps at the intersection of technology, strategy, and labor Distinguishing human creativity from AI-generated “slop” How to maintain humanity and funkiness in a synthetic content flood Hope and optimism for the future of work and technology Connect with Ben Pring: benpring.com Episode Chapters:00:00:05 – Welcome to the Tech Humanist Show 00:00:18 – The Human Ability to Ask the Next Best Question 00:00:32 – Computers Are Useless: Asking the Right Questions 00:01:05 – Introducing Ben Pring 00:02:21 – Historical Context for Today's AI Moment 00:04:47 – Technology: Replacing Skill with Judgment 00:08:14 – What Leaders Should Be Asking in an AI-Powered World 00:13:08 – Why Leaders Avoid Tough Questions About Automation 00:16:13 – Decision-Making in Times of Uncertainty 00:19:10 – Distinguishing Priorities from Trivialities 00:24:22 – Aligning Incentives and Unintended Consequences 00:25:41 – Have We Gotten Better at Taming the Monster? 00:29:26 – The Most Important Policy Questions We're Not Asking 00:33:59 – The Car as a Parallel: Infrastructure and Human-Centric Design 00:36:21 – What Remains Distinctly Human in a Synthetic Content World 00:41:01 – Invention, Funkiness, and Problem-Solving 00:42:46 – Hope and Optimism for the Future 00:49:03 – Closing and Where to Find Ben Pring

What if climate action and economic growth aren’t at odds—but actually deeply aligned? In this episode, Kate O’Neill sits down with Tom Chi to challenge conventional thinking about climate solutions, innovation, and the future of planetary restoration. Topics Covered: The emotional impact of witnessing coral reef collapse Reimagining climate action through the lens of both ecology and economy Lessons from Google X: rapid prototyping and low-cost innovation How Google Glass shaped the understanding of visual information and human experience Insights into planetary restoration and urgent timelines for action The concept of “Climate Capital” and investment strategies for sustainability Aligning ecological wins with economic incentives Overcoming barriers in climate-tech: capex inertia and effective policy Interconnectedness and its influence on business and technology Innovative approaches for sustainable material management Connect with Tom Chi:LinkedInAt One Ventures Website Episode Chapters: 00:00:05 – Welcome & Introduction to the Tech Humanist Show 00:00:15 – Tom Chi on Reef Collapse and Global Tragedy 00:00:43 – Rethinking Climate Action: Ecology vs. Economy 00:02:15 – Conversation Kickoff: Meet Tom Chi 00:02:36 – Google X, Rapid Prototyping, and Hardware Innovation 00:06:24 – Augmenting Human Vision: Google Glass Discoveries 00:13:08 – From Tech Innovator to Planetary Restoration 00:16:33 – The Gravity of Coral Loss & Civilization-Scale Decisions 00:19:47 – Becoming Net Positive to Nature: NE Ventures Approach 00:21:01 – What “Climate Capital” Really Means 00:27:01 – Structuring Climate-Tech Investments & Timelines 00:28:57 – Advice for Funders: Overcoming Green Premiums 00:33:15 – Interconnectedness: Tech, Nature, and Business 00:38:43 – Building Lasting Systems with Nature 00:39:13 – The One Law to Accelerate Climate Solutions 00:47:21 – Empowering Change: Rates Not States 00:47:30 – Book Release: Climate Capital 00:48:17 – Closing Remarks & How to Connect

What if the secret to solving your organization’s toughest problems was thinking like a 10-year-old? Discover how childlike creativity and fun can reframe complex business challenges, spark innovation, and drive real results. Topics Covered: Childlike thinking for organizational problem-solvingPlayful penalties to boost accountabilityStorytelling and translating complex issues for kidsChange management through unbiased perspectivesDementia care and deepfake technology solutionsMechanisms for creativity: no rules, have fun, do good, no shameDesigning inclusive, impactful brainstorming sessionsBridging playfulness and business gravitasApplying kid-inspired thinking to AI and executive decisionsKeeping curiosity and creative practice alive in organizations Connect with Bas Warmerdam:ConsultingKids.comLinkedIn Episode Chapters00:00:05 – Welcome & Intro to the Tech Humanist Show00:00:17 – “Playful Penalties” concept and team accountability00:00:41 – Bas Warmerdam's work with Consulting Kids00:01:50 – Approach and methodology using children as junior consultants00:03:38 – Reframing collaboration problems through childlike solutions00:04:24 – Implementing playful penalties and organizational impact00:06:02 – The “Thinking Like a Child for Professionals” process00:08:27 – Bringing executives into the classroom and change management benefits00:09:23 – Storytelling for complex issue translation00:12:14 – Mechanisms for leaders to use childlike thinking in their teams00:15:09 – Four key thinking mechanisms from kids00:15:50 – Example: Dementia care and “no rules” thinking00:18:28 – How professionals can integrate fun and purpose00:19:55 – Embracing “no shame” in creative business solutions00:20:41 – Creating inclusion for quiet and underrepresented voices00:22:03 – Reintegration: Bringing creative ideas into business practice00:24:21 – Childlike thinking for AI-related decisions00:26:55 – Using kid-driven creativity to challenge AI authority00:28:40 – Sustaining childlike thinking post-consulting00:30:41 – Keeping curiosity sharp and connecting at home00:32:19 – How to connect with Bas Warmerdam and Consulting Kids00:32:55 – Closing remarks and credits

What if the future of work means being present without actually “being” there? In this episode, Kate O’Neill and Cortney Harding dig into how AI, spatial computing, and XR are quietly reshaping both our work and our very definition of human value, beyond the headlines and hype. Topics covered:The transformative power of spatial computing and XR beyond the AI buzz How enterprises are quietly adopting XR for training and productivity “Metaverse” vs. “Metaphysical”: the next evolution of immersive tech Redefining human strengths and “non-machine premiums” in the AI era How AI and XR can foster inclusion and overcome workplace bias Practical pilots for leaders: headset days, policies, and workflow innovations Why employee and consumer satisfaction metrics matter more than ever Predictions for seamless, reality-blending experiences in the next five years Connect with: Cortney Harding Episode Chapters00:00:05 – Welcome to The Tech Humanist Show 00:00:17 – Premium human strengths in an AI-driven workplace 00:00:28 – Cortney Harding on underestimating XR's impact 00:01:32 – What's quietly evolving in XR beyond AI hype? 00:02:01 – XR in the mainstream and the interconnected tech ecosystem 00:04:05 – The underreported impact of XR in enterprise and education 00:05:32 – From “metaverse” to “metaphysical”: reframing the future 00:09:00 – Extended reality, AI, and rethinking collaboration 00:11:25 – Developing non-machine premiums to stay ahead of AI 00:13:47 – Four “E”s where humans have the edge: Emotion, Enhancement, Experience, Ego 00:18:10 – Meeting people where they are: designing human-centered spatial experiences 00:21:01 – Frictionless experiences, seamless recommendations, and what's next 00:22:24 – When AR/VR is actually worth it (and when a website is plenty) 00:24:31 – Aligning AI with organizational and human goals 00:26:11 – Creating a permission structure for meaningful AI use at work 00:31:11 – The shift from hours worked to task-based value 00:36:45 – One pilot for the future: “Headset day” at work 00:39:18 – Inclusion, avatars, and telling the tech story differently 00:40:29 – Lightning round: best, worst, and most promising XR use cases 00:42:53 – Five-year forecast: immersive experiences as everyday reality 00:43:51 – Where to find “The Spatial Race” and final thoughts

What's stopping legacy companies from becoming the next Airbnb or Amazon—and how can they unlock platform thinking to transform their assets into thriving ecosystems? Dive into how established organizations can use the “Digital Phoenix” effect to fuel innovation, leverage their existing advantages, and reshape value creation with cutting-edge insights from the world of platforms. Topics covered: Platform business models and value creationPlatform thinking vs. traditional business models The “Digital Phoenix” effect and leveraging idle assets Case studies: Telepass, EasyPark, airports, and Chipotle Overcoming barriers to platform transformation Internal platforms and cross-functional collaboration The impact of AI and generative AI on organizations Employee engagement and organizational change Shifting from customer-centricity to value architecture Scaling, flexibility, and regeneration benefits of platforms Connect with Daniel & Tommaso:Website: PlatformThinking.EULinkedIn: Daniel Trabucchi // Tommaso Buganza Episode Chapters00:00:05 – Introduction and welcome 00:00:33 – The rise of platform companies and industries reshaped 00:01:38 – AI's role in internal platforms and collaboration 00:02:02 – Guests' background and partnership 00:02:29 – The Digital Phoenix Effect and business transformation 00:04:16 – The Phoenix analogy and legacy company opportunities 00:04:43 – Telepass case study: from legacy to platform 00:05:58 – Overcoming the chicken-and-egg problem 00:07:39 – Idle assets: a startup advantage for legacy firms 00:08:47 – Defining platforms: do both sides need to be tech-centric? 00:09:18 – Types of users and value creation differences 00:10:09 – Legacy firms, tech, and two-sided value 00:12:36 – Nontraditional examples: airports and value creation 00:14:12 – Chipotle's farmer market: a pandemic case 00:17:11 – Mindset shifts: sustainability, regeneration, and platform transformation 00:19:09 – Barriers to platform adoption: mindset, complexity, and value 00:23:57 – From customer shoes to value architect's perspective 00:25:10 – Reshaping organizations: multiple customer mindsets 00:27:23 – Common worries of business leaders 00:29:41 – Benefits for companies making the leap 00:33:25 – Organizational change and employee engagement 00:34:14 – Leading innovation and internal platform value 00:36:12 – Creating a win-win within organizations 00:38:26 – AI's evolving role in platform thinking 00:40:57 – Internal collaboration and GenAI's sliding doors 00:42:49 – Where to find the guests and resources 00:44:03 – Show credits and closing

How can AI and innovation transform not just the business side of sports, but create truly human-centered fan experiences? In this episode, Christa Stout, the Chief Strategy and Innovation Officer for the Portland Trailblazers, talks with Kate O’Neill about building people-first strategies in professional sports, using AI to impact real human experiences, and lessons in innovation from around the world. Topics covered: The evolving role of Chief Strategy and Innovation Officer in sports Balancing business value with fan, community, and employee impact Approaches to meaningful innovation and international development lessons Building and implementing AI strategy in a sports organization Change management and centering real people in organizational change How generative AI unlocks human potential and personalizes fan engagement Organizational metrics for innovation, inclusion, and impact Upskilling employees and culture change for AI adoption Creating frictionless, joyful fan experiences with technology Connect with Christa StoutPortland Trailblazers WebsiteLinkedIn Episode Chapters00:00:05 – Introduction to the Tech Humanist Show & Guest Overview00:01:33 – The Scope of Strategic and Innovation Leadership in Pro Sports00:02:58 – The Rise of Strategy Roles & Future-Focused Planning00:05:42 – What Makes an Innovative Sports Team?00:07:23 – Lessons in Innovation from International Experience00:09:16 – Change Management: Combining Theory and Impact00:14:54 – Embedding AI Strategy: From Curiosity to Company-Wide Change00:19:15 – Real-World Results: AI's Impact on Employee and Fan Experiences00:22:38 – Humanizing AI: Where Tech Enables Personal Touch00:26:18 – Redefining “Value” in Sports Organizations00:29:38 – Evolving Metrics and Exponential Possibilities with AI00:32:42 – Building Employee Buy-In and Upskilling for AI Adoption00:35:01 – Tools & Anticipated Changes for the Future of Sports Innovation00:37:25 – What True Innovation Could Mean for the Sports Experience00:39:46 – Closing Thoughts, Where to Connect, and Outro

What does it really take for organizations to thrive in an era of constant disruption and rapid technological change? In this insightful episode of the Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill sits down with innovation strategist Greg Verdino to explore the critical role of adaptability in modern business. Drawing from their experiences with digital transformation […]

What truly separates successful AI adoption from mere “execution theater”? In this episode host Kate O'Neill sits down with AI transformation leader Deepika Chopra to explore the critical—and often overlooked—dimension of human readiness in AI adoption. Drawing from her experience leading major AI and digital initiatives at Fortune 500 companies and startups alike, Deepika Chopra […]

How can technology and indigenous wisdom come together to help humanity solve the climate crisis? In this episode, Kate O'Neill sits down with Tullio Andrade, chief strategist for COP30, as Brazil prepares to host the first UN climate conference in the Amazon. Dive into a dynamic conversation about the intersection of digital innovation, indigenous knowledge, […]

What's at stake when our personal data becomes a tool of power? In this episode, Dr. Carissa Véliz explores how privacy shapes democracy, technology, and our day-to-day lives—asking what ethical guardrails are needed as AI and digital surveillance expand. Topics Covered: The primal importance of privacyPersonal data as a toxic asset Privacy as a collective […]

What if one of the world's most game-changing tech products—Amazon Alexa—started with a plan so ambitious, it nearly involved building a real-life Star Trek holodeck? In this episode of the Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill dives deep with Edward Crump, the cofounder and co-inventor of Amazon Alexa, to uncover the untold origin story behind […]

What if the words we use to describe AI are misleading us—and even shaping how we regulate, trust, and collaborate with technology itself? In this revelatory episode of the Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill sits down with Anna Mills and Nate Angell, co-authors of a provocative new paper arguing that the term “AI hallucination” […]

What if one-third of the world's internet users are actually children—children whose data is being harvested, who are being exposed to manipulation, and whose classrooms are now testing grounds for unproven tech? In this eye-opening episode of the Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill sits down with Leanda Barrington-Leach, a leading advocate and spokesperson for […]

What if trust was the secret ingredient to thriving in the age of AI? In this eye-opening episode of The Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill sits down with Stephen M. R. Covey, celebrated author of Trust & Inspire and The Speed of Trust, to reveal how trust is at the heart of successful leadership […]

Are you ready to rethink how AI shapes our human experience? On this episode of the Tech Humanist Show, we're diving into a captivating conversation with Maria Luciana Axente, a leader in AI ethics and responsible technology. What if AI's rush for dominance is overshadowing crucial aspects of humanity and ethics? Get ready to explore […]

In this episode of the Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill and guest Hamilton Mann explore the significance of building trustworthy and fair AI systems. They discuss the concept of Artificial Integrity, its importance in society, and the challenges of integrating it into AI design, emphasizing human values in technology's future.

What if everything you think you know about civic engagement is stuck in the past—and the real power lies in everyday actions between elections, not just in the voting booth or the halls of government? In this revealing episode of The Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill sits down with Mila Atmos—creator of the Future […]

Prepare to uncover the unseen world of tech diversity as Bärí Williams, renowned tech advocate and author, takes us on a journey through her experiences and insights on this captivating episode of The Tech Humanist Show. In a revelation that might surprise you, Bärí shares how she managed to merge the intricacies of law with […]

In this insightful episode of The Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill welcomes Wendy Smith, the Dana J. Johnson Professor of Management at the University of Delaware. Wendy is an expert in strategic paradoxes and brings a wealth of knowledge from her groundbreaking work and acclaimed book, “BOTH/AND Thinking.” Wendy dives deep into the pitfalls […]

In this enlightening episode of The Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill dives deep into a thought-provoking conversation with Greg Epstein, the humanist chaplain at Harvard and MIT, and a New York Times best-selling author. Known for his impactful role as the Twitter chaplain during the pandemic, Greg now channels his passions through LinkedIn and […]

In this engaging episode of The Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill sits down with the multifaceted Casey Erin Clark, co-founder of Vital Voice Training, to explore the profound connections between voice, human communication, and technology. With AI and voice technologies becoming increasingly prevalent, Casey shares her unique perspective on how these developments impact our […]

Renowned AI ethicist and philosopher, Ravit Dotan joins host Kate O'Neill as they dive deep into the world of artificial intelligence and ethics. The conversation covers the significant changes in public perception of AI, sparked by direct interaction and the influence of sci-fi-like misconceptions. Dotan addresses the ethical pitfalls of large language models, including the […]

Kate O'Neill is joined by Cortney Harding— a visionary leader in virtual and augmented reality (VR and AR), founder, and CEO of Friends with Holograms. Together, they explore how immersive technologies are transforming human experiences and the innovative projects that Harding's agency has spearheaded. Cortney shares insights into Friends with Holograms' award-winning work, including a […]

In this insightful episode of The Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill sits down with Noah Giansiracusa, an associate professor of mathematics at Bentley University and visiting scholar at Harvard, to unravel the fascinating interplay between mathematics, social media algorithms, and their impact on society. Noah dives into his journey, which began during the pandemic, […]

When we talk about the metaverse as we imagine it taking shape, we don't always have the vocabulary to describe how we should be able to navigate it safely and enjoyably. Join host Kate O'Neill on The Tech Humanist Show as she engages in an enlightening conversation with technology critic and industry analyst Sara M. […]

In this compelling episode of The Tech Humanist Show, host Kate O'Neill sits down with Dr. Joel Mier, former head of marketing at Netflix, to explore the complex intersection of data, empathy, and customer-centricity in business. The conversation opens with a deep dive into the challenges of quantifying empathetic understanding and the importance of tying […]

In this riveting episode of The Tech Humanist Show, Kate O'Neill sits down with Aimee' Killeen and Chuck Greely, two pivotal figures in the water sector, to explore the confluence of technology, environmental science, and water management. Aimee' Killeen, President of the Water Environment Federation (WEF) and COO of Providence Engineering and Environmental Group, shares […]

In this episode of The Tech Humanist Show, we welcome Yanis Varoufakis, an economist, politician, author, and former Minister of Finance in Greece. Known for his insightful critique on the state of capitalism, Yanis opens up important dialogues that challenge our contemporary understanding of the economy. Our discussion centers around his new book, “Technofeudalism: What […]

Cities are like test beds for how data and tech can empower citizen experience. So it's interesting to consider leading a growing city as someone with a background in technology. In this episode, Kate talks with her old friend Freddie O'Connell about his run for mayor of Nashville, and about how data and technology figures […]

Dive deep with us into the world of mining, sustainability, and the delicate balance between economic needs, environmental responsibility, and future potential. Our interview with Dana Bennett, president of the Nevada Mining Association, sheds light on the complex landscape of the mining industry, in Nevada but also globally, and its implications for communities and technology. […]

Women figure heavily into the tech humanist story. So for International Women's Day — and to kick off our new season, Season 3! — we're celebrating with an episode highlighting just a few of the brilliant women tech and futurist thinkers who've been guests on our show: Vanessa Mason, Dr. Safiya Noble, Giselle Mota, and Dr. […]

As fun as Spotify Unwrapped is, it speaks to the fact that we're all slowly willing to accept more and more tech companies gathering huge amounts of data on all of us...

Everyone who interacts with technology in any way is either affected by or directly affecting algorithmic bias on a daily basis, and most of it is invisible to us. That's what I'm talking about today: algorithmic bias, where it comes from, how it affects you and your business, and how we can use strategic big-picture thinking to mitigate and erase the harm it causes.

'Supply Chain' has become a household term. With its growing popularity, it's time to address something missing from that language: the humans who make it run.

This week, we're exploring why it behooves businesses and business leaders to look at their users, consumers, customers, etc., as humans first. Slightly shifting perspective to consider the humanity behind purchasing decisions can lead to greater loyalty, more frequent use, and genuinely happier users, all of which add up to more business success and better outcomes for the world. Together with my guests, we discuss how human-centric decisions apply to various industries and how you can build better relationships that lead to success for all of humanity. Guests this week include Charlie Cole, Neil Redding, Dr. Rumman Chowdhury, Ana Milicevic, Cathy Hackl, Marcus Whitney, and David Ryan Polgar. The Tech Humanist Show is a multi-media-format program exploring how data and technology shape the human experience. Hosted by Kate O'Neill. Produced and edited by Chloe Skye, with research by Ashley Robinson and Erin Daugherty at Interrobang and input from Elizabeth Marshall. To watch full interviews with past and future guests, or for updates on what Kate O'Neill is doing next, subscribe to The Tech Humanist Show hosted by Kate O'Neill channel on YouTube, or head to KOInsights.com. Full Transcript Kate O'Neill: When you buy something, you're a customer. But — to paraphrase a line from the movie Notting Hill — you're also just a person, standing in front of a business, asking it to treat you like a human being. Over the last two decades plus working in technology, I've often held job titles that were centered on the experience of the user, the consumer, or the customer. In fact, the term ‘customer experience' has been in use since at least the 1960s, and has become so common that a recent survey of nearly 2,000 business professionals showed that customer experience was the top priority over the next five years. And while generally speaking this emphasis is a good thing, my own focus over the past decade or so has shifted. I've realized that the more macro consideration of human experience was a subtle but vital piece missing from the discussion at large. Because when we talk about experience design and strategy, no matter what word we use to qualify it—customer, user, patient, guest, student, or otherwise—we are always talking about humans, and the roles humans are in relative to that experience. In order to refocus on human experience instead of customer, you have to change the way you think about your buyers. You owe it to yourself to think not just about how people can have a better experience purchasing from your company, but also what it means to be fully human within the journey that brings them to that moment, and the uniquely human factors that drive us to make decisions leading to purchase or loyalty. A recent piece by Deloitte shared in the Wall Street Journal echoes this idea and offers five ways to be more human-centric in business: 1) be obsessed by all things human, 2) proactively identify & understand human needs before they are expressed, 3) execute with humanity, 4) be authentic, and 5) change the world. That's what today's episode is about: using empathy and strategic business-savvy to understand what it means to be human, and how that intersects with the worlds of technology and business. Neil Redding: “When you look at everything that has to do with buying and selling of things, it's so closely tied with what we care about, what we value most, value enough as humans to spend our hard-earned money on. And so, the realm of retail reflects something really deeply human, and profoundly human.” Kate: That was Neil Redding, brand strategist and self-described “Near Futurist” focused on the retail space. He's right—buying and selling things has become deeply entwined with humanity. But when we purchase something, it's not because we think of ourselves as “customers” or “end users.” We buy because we have a need or desire to fulfill, and sometimes that need is purely emotional. A ‘customer' buys your product—a human buys your product for a reason. 84% of consumers say that being treated like a person instead of a number is an important element to winning their business. It does seem like business professionals are catching on, as 79% say it's impossible to provide great service without full context of the client and their needs. But understanding something isn't the same as putting it into practice—only 34% of people say they feel like companies actually treat them as individuals. One major difference is the question of framing. Customer experience frames the motivator as, ‘how effectively the business operates the events related to a purchase decision.' It drives companies to focus on improving their own metrics, like bringing down call center wait times. These may yield worthwhile outcomes, but they're inherently skewed to the business perspective and aligned to the purchase transaction. Focusing instead on human experience shifts the perspective to the person outside the business, and what they want or need. It allows consideration of the emotional state they may be bringing to the interaction, which leaves greater room for empathy and context. A human experience mindset suggests that each individual's unique circumstances are more important than aggregate business metrics, because the reason why that person is interacting with your company probably can't be captured by measuring, say, how long they might have to wait on the phone. You could bring that wait time to zero and it still may not have any impact on whether the person feels heard, respected, or satisfied with the outcome — or whether they want to engage with you again. But as fuzzy as it is to talk about human experience, we know that measurement is fundamental to business success, so we have to find a way to define useful metrics somehow. For each business, that number is likely a bit different. So how do you know whether your customers feel like they're being treated as humans instead of just numbers? Charlie Cole, CEO of the flower delivery website ftd.com, believes one answer is obsessing over customer satisfaction metrics. Charlie Cole: “The best way to win this industry is just kick ass with the customer. We obsess over NPS scores, uh, as kind of leading indicators of LTV scores.” Kate: If you're not familiar with the acronyms, allow me to decipher: NPS stands for Net Promoter Score, which measures how likely the customer is to recommend the business, and LTV in this context means ‘lifetime value,' or the amount a customer may spend at your business over the course of their lifetime. Charlie Cole: “But remember, it's not the receiver's lifetime, it's the sender's lifetime. I mean, think about it. My stepmom is—just had a birthday April 9th, and I sent her a plant. If I went on a website and picked out a Roselia, and she received an Azelia, she's gonna be like, ‘thank you so much, that was so thoughtful of you,' and I'm gonna be pissed, right? And so like, we have to make sure we optimize that sender NPS score. It was shocking to us when we looked into the NPS, when we first got to FTD, our NPS, Kate, was in like the teens! My CTO looked at it and he goes, ‘how is this possible? We send gifts, who doesn't like receiving gifts?' And so we were looking at this stuff and we realized like, this is how you win. And I think when people look at the world of online delivery, there's very few companies that are extremely customer-centric… and in our world it matters. It's births, it's deaths, it's birthdays, it's Mother's Days… it's the most emotional moments of your life that you're relying on us for, so I think that gravitas just goes up to the next level.” Kate: Net Promoter Score offers directional insight about the customer experience, but it still isn't quite measurement of the broader human experience. The typical NPS question is phrased, “How likely is it that you would recommend [company X] to a friend or colleague?”, which forces customers to predict future actions and place themselves into hypothetical or idealistic scenarios. It is also measured on a 1-10 scale, which is pretty arbitrary and subjective — one person's 9 would not be another person's 9. A clearer way to ask this and gain more useful human-centric data would be with simple yes/no questions, asking people about actual past behaviors. For instance, “in the past 6 weeks, have you recommended [company X] to a friend or colleague?” Other alternative measures include PES, or Product Engagement Score, which measures growth, adoption, and stickiness of a given product or service, and doesn't require directly asking customers questions about their past or future habits. Instead, data comes in in real-time and allows for a clear measurement of success relative to a product's usage. While these metrics are useful in various ways, one thing missing from them is emotion. As humans, we are animals deeply driven by our emotions: research from MIT Sloan finds that before humans decide to take an action—any action, including buying something—the decision must first go through a filtering process that incorporates both reason and feelings. Reason leads to conclusions, but emotion leads to action. And if a customer feels frustrated by the customer service they're experiencing—perhaps they feel like they are being treated like a number, and not a person—they'll file a complaint, share on social media, and tell their friends and family to avoid the business. These actions can be quite time-consuming, but people will give up their time to right a wrong they feel they've experienced. All this is to say that if you want to retain human loyalty or attract new people to your business, you have to create a positive emotional response in your customers, which means understanding more about who they are than simply what product they might want. Many businesses have discovered that one of the best ways to create an emotional connection with people is through branding. A great brand image can forge a permanent bond with someone who feels strongly that the company shares their values and practices what they preach. Once someone has connected a brand to their own identity, it becomes much more difficult to convince them to switch to another company—even if that company provides the same product at lower cost—because switching companies feels like losing a part of them. Dr. Rumman Chowdhury, Director of the Machine Learning Ethics, Transparency, and Accountability team at Twitter, explored the concept of branding with me when she came on my show last year. Rumman Chowdhury: “Human flourishing is not at odds with good business. Some of what you build, especially if you're a B2C company, it's about brand. It's about how people feel when they interact with your technology or your product. You are trying to spark an emotion. Why do you buy Coke vs Pepsi? Why do you go to McDonald's vs Burger King? Some of this is an emotional decision. It's also this notion of value. People can get overly narrowly focused on value as revenue generation—value comes from many, many different things. People often choose less ‘efficient' outcomes or less economically sound outcomes because of how it makes them feel. A frivolous example but an extreme example of it would be luxury brands. Apple spends so much money on design. Opening every Apple product is designed to feel like you're opening a present. That was intentional. They fully understand the experience of an individual, in interacting with technology like a phone or a computer, is also an emotional experience.” Kate: If you're able to understand what people connect to about your brand, you can invest into magnifying that image. If your customer loves that you invest into clean energies, it becomes less important how much time they spend on the phone waiting for a service rep. Operational metrics can't show you this emotional resonance, so instead you have to think about what makes you stand out, and why people are attracted to you. Sometimes, however, human emotion has nothing to do with the product or brand in question, and more to do with the circumstances surrounding it. There's perhaps no better example of this than flowers, which can be given for myriad reasons, and usually at the extreme ends of the emotional spectrum. I'll let Charlie Cole explain. Charlie Cole: “For us, it's buyer journey by occasion. So, you are sending flowers for the birth of a newborn. You are sending flowers for the tragic death of a teenager. You are sending flowers for the death of your 96 year old great grandfather. You are sending flowers for your wife's birthday. I would argue that even though the end of all those buyer journeys is ‘flowers,' they are fundamentally different. And you have to understand the idiosyncrasies within those buyer journeys from an emotional component. You have to start with the emotions in mind. You're buying running shoes. The buying journey for like a runner, for like a marathoner, a guy who runs all the time, is emotionally different than someone who just got told they need to lose weight at the doctor. Someone who travels for business all the time versus someone who's taking their first ever international…travel. Like, my wife retold a story the other day to my aunt about how her first European trip was when she won a raffle to go to Austria when she was 17. And her, like, single mom was taking her to Europe, and neither of them had ever been to Europe. That's a different luggage journey than me, who used to fly 300,000 miles a year. And I think that if you take the time to really appreciate the emotional nuance of those journeys, yes there's data challenges, and yes there's customer recognition challenges, so you can personalize it. But I would urge every brand to start with like the emotional amino-acid level of why that journey starts, and then reverse-engineer it from there. Because I think you'll be able to answer the data challenges and the attribution challenges, but I think that's a place where we sometimes get too tech-y and too tactical, as opposed to human.” Kate: Another challenge unique to flowers and other products usually given as gifts is that there are two completely different humans involved in the transaction, each with different expectations and emotions riding on it. Charlie Cole: “There's two people involved in every one of our journeys, or about 92% of them: the buyer, and the receiver. So how do I message to you, I don't want to ruin the surprise! But I need to educate you, and oh yeah, I'm a really really nervous boyfriend, right? I wanna make sure everybody's doing it right, and it's gonna be there on time, and I need to make sure it's going to the right place… So the messaging pathways to the sender and receiver are fundamentally different. If you kind of forget about your buying journey, and imagine everything as a gifting buyer journey, it just changes the messaging component. Not in a nuanced way, but darn near in a reciprocal way.” And while some businesses struggle to connect emotionally with the humans that make up their customer base, the tech industry—and specifically social media companies—seem to fundamentally understand what it is that humans crave, in a way that allows them to use it against us. They thrive because they take something that is quintessentially human—connecting with people and sharing our lives—and turn it into a means for data collection that can then be used to sell us products that feel specifically designed for us. Like most of us, Neil Redding has experienced this phenomenon firsthand. Neil Redding: “We spend more and more of our time in contexts that we are apparently willing to have commercialized, right? Instagram is kind of my go-to example, where almost all of us have experienced this uncanny presentation to us of something that we can buy that's like so closely tied to… I mean, it's like how did you know that this is what I wanted? So myself and people close to me have just said, ‘wow, I just keep buying this stuff that gets presented to me on Instagram that I never heard of before but gets pushed to me as like, yeah it's so easy, and it's so aligned with what I already want. So there's this suffusion of commercial transaction—or at least discovery—of goods that can be bought and sold, y'know, in these moments of our daily lives, y'know, so that increasingly deep integration of commerce and buying and selling of things into our self-expression, into our communication, works because what we care about and what we are willing to buy or what we are interested in buying are so intertwined, right? They're kind of the same thing at some deep level.” Kate: Part of the reason this works is that humans crave convenience. Lack of convenience adds friction to any process, and friction can quickly lead to frustration, which isn't a mind state that leads to more business. The internet and social media has made keeping up with friends and gathering information incredibly convenient, so an advertisement here or there—especially one that looks and feels the same as everything else on our feed—doesn't bother us like it might in other contexts. And when those advertisements have been tailored specifically to our interests, they're even less likely to spark a negative emotion, and may in fact encourage us to buy something that we feel is very “us.” The big question for business leaders and marketers then is how do you digitize your business so that it emphasizes the richness of the human experience? How do you know which technologies to bring into your business, and which to leave aside? There are plenty of established and emerging technologies to choose from: Interactive email helps marketers drive engagement and also provides an avenue for additional data collection. Loyalty marketing strategies help brands identify their best customers and customize experiences for them. Salesforce introduced new features to help humanize the customer service experience with AI-powered conversational chatbots that feel pretty darn close to speaking with an actual human. Virtual and Augmented Reality website options allow customers to interact with products and see them in their hands or living rooms before they buy. With all the choice out there, it can be overwhelming. And t oo often, businesses and governments lean into the “just buy as much tech as possible!” approach without thinking integratively about the applications of said technology. Many companies are using that technology to leverage more data than ever before, hoping to customize and personalize experiences. David Ryan Polgar, a tech ethicist and founder of All Tech Is Human, explains why this method may not yield the results you think—because humans aren't just a collection of data points. David Ryan Polgar: “Are we an algorithm, or are we unique? I always joke, like, my mom always said I'm a, a snowflake! I'm unique! Because, when you think about Amazon and recommendations, it's thinking that your past is predicting your future. And that, with enough data, we can accurately determine where your next step is. Or even with auto-suggestion, and things like that. What's getting tricky is, is that true? Or is it subtly going to be off? With a lot of these auto-suggestions, let's say like text. Well the question I always like to think about is, how often am I influenced by what they said I should say? So if I wanna write, like, ‘have a…' and then it says ‘great day,' well, maybe I was gonna say great day, but maybe I was gonna say good day. And it's subtly different, but it's also influencing kinda, my volition. Now we're being influenced by the very technology that's pushing us is a certain direction. And we like to think of it, ‘well, it's already based on you,' but then that has a sort of cyclical nature to actually extending—” Kate: “Quantum human consciousness or something.” David: “Exactly! Exactly.” Kate: “Like, the moment you observe it, it's changed.” Kate: It's so easy, especially when you work with data, to view humans as output generators. But we're living in an age where people are growing increasingly wary of data collection, which means you may not know as much about the people whose data you've collected as you think you do. Becoming dependent on an entirely data-driven model for customer acquisition may lead to faulty decisions — and may even be seen as a huge mistake five years from now. Instead, I always talk about “human-centric digital transformation,” which means the data and tech-driven changes you make should start from a human frame. Even if you're already adopting intelligent automation to accelerate your operations, in some cases, very simple technologies may belong at the heart of your model. Here's Neil Redding again. Neil Redding: “Using Zoom or FaceTime or Skype is the only technology needed to do what a lot of stores have done during COVID, where their customers expect the store associate interaction when they come to the stores, they just create a one-on-one video call, and the shopper just has this interaction over videochat, or video call, and kind of does that associate-assisted shopping, right? And so you have that human connection, and again, it's nowhere near as great as sitting across a table and having coffee, but it's better than, y'know, a 2-dimensional e-commerce style shopping experience.” Kate: As a parallel to video conferencing, Virtual Reality has opened up avenues for new human experiences of business as well. Cathy Hackl, a metaverse strategist and tech futurist, explained a new human experience she was able to have during COVID that wouldn't have been possible without VR. Cathy Hackl: “I'll give you an example, like with the Wall Street Journal, they had the WSJ Tech Live, which is their big tech conference, and certain parts of it were in VR, and that was a lot of fun! I mean, I was in Spatial, which is one of the platforms, hanging out with Joanna Stern, and with Jason Mims, and like, in this kind of experience, where like I actually got to spend some 1-on-1 time with them, and I don't know if I would have gotten that if I was in a Zoom call, and I don't know if I would have gotten that in person, either.” Kate: Virtual Reality and video technologies have also opened up new avenues for healthcare, allowing patients to conference with doctors from home and only travel to a hospital if absolutely necessary. Marcus Whitney is a healthcare investor and founder of the first venture fund in America to invest exclusively in Black founded and led healthcare innovation companies; he explains that these virtual experiences allow for better happiness, healing, and comfort. Marcus Whitney: “Going forward, telehealth will be a thing. We were already on the path to doing more and more healthcare in the home. It was something that they were trying to stop because, is the home an appropriate place for healthcare to take place? Lo and behold, it's just fine. Patients feel more secure in the home, and it's a better environment for healing, so you're gonna see a lot more of that. I think we're finally gonna start seeing some real breakthroughs and innovation in healthcare. Most of the lack of innovation has not been because we didn't have great thinkers, it has largely been regulatory barriers. Remote patient monitoring was a huge one that came up in the last year, so now we have doctors caring about it. What moves in healthcare is what's reimbursable. They were always trying to regulate to protect people, but then they realized, well, we removed the regulatory barriers and people were fine, so that regulation makes actually no sense, and people should have more choice, and they should be able to do telehealth if they want to.” Kate: And that's just it: humans want choice. We want to feel seen, and heard, and like our opinions are being considered. There's another technology on the horizon that could give people more power over their technology, and therefore freedom and choice, that will likely cause massive change in the marketplace when it is more widely available: Brain-computer interface. Cathy Hackl explains. Cathy Hackl: “So I'm very keen right now on brain-computer interface. The way I'm gonna explain it is, if you've been following Elon Musk, you've probably heard of neuro-link—he's working on BCI that's more internal, the ones I've been trying are all external devices. So I'm able to put a device on that reads my brainwaves, it reads my intent, and it knows that I wanna scroll an iPad, or I've been able to turn on lights using just my thoughts, or play a video game, or input a code… I've been able to do all these things. And I'm very keen on it, very interested to see what's going on… I think the biggest thing that's stuck with me from studying all these technologies and trying them out from an external perspective, is that my brain actually really likes it. Loves the workout. Like, I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, the receptors here, pleasure receptors are like lighting up, I'm like ‘ohmygosh!' So I'm still sitting with that. Is that a good thing? Or a bad thing? I don't know, but I think these technologies can allow us to do a lot of things, especially people with disabilities. If they don't have a hand, being able to use a virtual hand to do things in a virtual space. I think that's powerful.” Kate: That story also illuminates the fact that there are many different types of people, each with different needs. Digital transformation has given people with disabilities a new way to claim more agency over their lives, which creates a brand new potential customer-base, filled with humans who desire freedom and choice as much as the next person. Now, let's talk about some companies who are doing at least a few q things right when it comes to the digital transformation of human experience. Starbucks, for instance. One of the worst parts of shopping in-store was waiting in line, and then the social pressure from the people behind you wishing you would order faster. If you weren't a regular customer, the experience could be overwhelming. When they launched their mobile order app, it tapped into a number of things that made the experience of buying coffee faster and easier, with all sorts of fun customization options that I never knew existed when I only ordered in-store. Now, even brand new customers could order complex coffee drinks — meaning in that one move the company may have brought in new customers and allowed the cost per coffee to increase — all without people feeling pressure from other shoppers, and without the inconvenience of waiting in line. Then there's Wal-Mart, who during the pandemic instituted ‘Wal-Mart pickup,' a service where people can shop online and pick up their goods without ever having to step into the store. The service is technically operating at a financial loss, but Wal-Mart understands that solid branding and convenience are worth more to their company's bottom-line in the long run than the amount of money they're losing by investing into this particular service. Of course, some businesses are better suited for the online-only world than others. As more companies attempt to digitize their businesses, it's incredibly important to tap into the human reasons that people wanted to engage with your business in the first place. In some cases, businesses have failed to make this connection, assuming that “if people liked us as a physical product, then they'll continue using us when we're digital,” or worse, “if we simply make people aware of us, they will become customers!” This assumption ignores human nature, as Ana Milicevic, a longtime digital media executive who is principal and co-founder of Sparrow Digital Holdings, explains. Ana Milicevic: “To be relevant in this direct to consumer world, you also have to approach awareness and customer acquisition differently. And this is the #1 mistake we see a lot of traditional companies make, and not really understand how to pitch to a digital-first, mobile-first consumer or a direct subscriber. They're just not wired to do it that way, and often times the technology stacks that they have in place just aren't the types of tools that can facilitate this type of direct interaction as well. So they're stuck in this very strange limbo where they are committed to continuing to acquire customers in traditional ways, but that's just not how you would go about acquiring a direct customer.” Kate: Acquiring those direct customers requires an understanding of what humans want—a large part of which is meaning. And how people create meaning in their lives is changing as well. Long before the pandemic, trends were already pointing toward a future where we live more of our lives online, but those trends have also been accelerated. So beyond digitizing your business, it may also be useful to invest time, money, and energy into discovering how the humans of the future will create meaning in their lives. Cathy Hackl discussed some of the trends she's seen in her own kids that show how today's children will consume and make purchasing decisions in a very different way than most modern businesses are used to. Cathy Hackl: “Something else that I'm noticing… y'know we're going to brick and mortar, but we're going to brick and mortar less. So you start to see this need for that virtual try-on to buy your makeup, or to buy clothes, and it's also transitioning not only from the virtual try-on into what I'm calling the direct-to-avatar economy. Everything from virtual dresses that you're buying, or custom avatars, y'know you're starting to create this virtualized economy. And this is the reason I always talk about this now, is my son recently did his first communion, and when we said, ‘hey, what do you want as a gift?' he said, ‘I don't want money, I want a Roblox gift card that I can turn into Robucks,'—which is the currency they use inside Roblox—'so that I can buy—whichever gamer's skin.' And, y'know, when I was growing up, my brother was saving up to buy AirJordans. My son doesn't want that, y'know, he wants Robucks, to buy something new for his avatar. This is direct-to-avatar; is direct-to-avatar the next direct-to-consumer?” Kate: Our online avatars represent us. We can customize them to directly express who we feel we are. Part of the reason this idea is so attractive is that many people—increasingly so in the context of online interaction—seek out meaningful experiences as our ‘aspirational' selves. We gravitate to the communities that align with facets of who we wish we were. And perhaps less productively, we may also choose to present the idealized version of ourselves to the world, omitting anything we're embarrassed by or that we feel may paint us in a negative light. But honestly, all of this makes sense in the context of making meaning, because humans are generally the most emotionally fulfilled when we feel empowered to control which ‘self' we present in any given interaction. With this much freedom of choice and expression, and with the complications of the modern supply chain—which I will talk about more in depth in our next episode—it's important to acknowledge that creating convenience and improving human satisfaction aren't going to be easy tasks. Behind the scenes, there is a tremendous amount of work that goes into providing a satisfying customer experience. Let's go back to the example of flowers and see what Charlie Cole has to say. Charlie Cole: “If it's too cold they freeze, if it's too hot they wilt, if UPS is a day late they die. And then, the real interesting aspect—and this isn't unique to flowers—the source is remarkably centralized. So the New York Times estimated that 90-92% of roses that are bought in America for Valentine's Day come from Columbia and Ecuador. And so, if anything goes wrong there, then you really don't have a chance. Imagine the quintessential Valentine's Day order: A dozen long-stem roses, New York City. Easy, right? I used to live on 28th and 6th, so let's say Chelsea. Okay, I've got 7 florists who could do it. Who has delivery capacity? Roses capacity? The freshest roses? The closest to proximity? The closest to the picture in the order? Who has the vase that's in the order? Did they buy roses from us? Because I like to be able to incentivize people based on margins they already have. And so without exaggeration, Kate, we have about 11-12 ranking factors that educate a quality score for a florist, and that's how it starts the process. But then there's all the other things, like how do we know somebody didn't walk into that florist that morning and buy all the roses, right? And so there's this real-time ebb-and-flow of demand because our demand is not ours! They have their own store, they have their own B2B business, they might take orders from some of our competitors. They might have their own website. We have no idea what any given florist happens in real time because they are not captive to us. What we've learned is the place we have to get really really really really good is technology on the forecasting side, on the florist communication side, and the customer communication side. Because I can't control the seeds on the ground in Columbia, but I can really control the communication across the entire network as far as we go, as well as the amounts the we need in various places.” Kate: Creating that small-scale, emotional human moment where someone receives flowers requires immense computing power and collaboration between multiple businesses and workers. Which is part of why Charlie Cole also believes that in some cases, the best way to help your business succeed is to invest in helping other businesses that yours interacts with. Charlie Cole: “Small businesses… I think it's our secret sauce. And I think COVID has shined a light on this: small businesses are the core of our communities. Right? They are the absolute core, and I think it was always nice to say that, but now we know it. And so here's what I think we do better than anybody else: we've invested more in helping our florists run their own small business independently of us than we have about optimizing our marketplace. We launched new POS software. We launched a new local website product where we're like the first person ever to become a reseller for Shopify because we made a custom platform for florists. We're just their website provider. They're actually competing with FTD.com in a lot of ways—but I think that's where we're gonna differentiate ourselves from all the other people that are perceived as, by small businesses, (their words not mine) leeches. Right? I think to actually effectively run a marketplace which is fulfilled by small businesses, you need to invest as much in helping them win their local market independent of you.” Kate: You could make the case that there is no more evolved human experience than choosing to help others. So if your business is engaged in activities that allow other businesses—and therefore humans—to thrive, you may also be building your brand in a direction that creates more customer loyalty than any exit survey or great service interaction ever could. Beyond understanding human emotions and needs, you can help your business by leaning into understanding how we create meaning. At our core, we are compelled to make meaning. Whether we realize it or not, meaningful experiences and interactions are the driving force behind many of our decisions, financial or otherwise. Meaning is different for everyone, but having it is vital to our happiness. If you are able to engage with potential customers in a way that helps them create meaning, or allows them to use your product to make meaning on their own, you are aligning your success with your customers' success, and that bodes well for the long term. At the end of the day, making any of these changes starts at the very top of your business. Leadership needs to set the tone, creating a culture that allows room for workers at every level to engage more meaningfully with customers, and with each other. (By the way, for more discussion on creating or changing work culture, you can check out our last episode, “Does the Future of Work Mean More Agency For Workers?”) Your effort will benefit not only your business, but society as a whole. Remember the Deloitte piece in the Wall Street Journal I mentioned at the start of the episode, with ways to be more human-centric in business? Number 5 on that list was “change the world,” and research from Frontiers suggests that the well-being of any society is directly linked to how the people living within it feel about their lives and purpose. How we do that may be as simple — and as complicated — as helping people to experience meaning at any level. While the technologies around us keep changing, the opportunity becomes increasingly clear for people who work around creating customer experiences and user experiences to open up the aperture to see humanity through a fuller lens. This way, as you set your business up for longterm success, you also advocate for making human experiences as meaningful as possible — and you just might be changing the world for the better. Thanks for joining me as I explored what it means to think of customers as human. Next time, I'll be exploring the supply chain and how, despite the vast technology involved, the closer you look the more you realize: the economy is people.

This week, we're exploring why it behooves businesses and business leaders to look at their users, consumers, customers, etc., as humans first. Slightly shifting perspective to consider the humanity behind purchasing decisions can lead to greater loyalty, more frequent use, and genuinely happier users, all of which add up to more business success and better […]

This week, we look at a few of the macro trends shaping both the labor market today and the future of work — such as the Great Resignation and collective bargaining — and examine how tech-driven business has both brought them about and potentially given workers more freedom and leverage. We also consider what all of that means for you if you're the one tasked with managing workers or leading a workplace forward, as well as what these trends might mean overall for humanity. Guests this week include Giselle Mota, Christopher Mims, Dr. Rumman Chowdhury, Dorothea Baur, John C. Havens, and Vanessa Mason. The Tech Humanist Show is a multi-media-format program exploring how data and technology shape the human experience. Hosted by Kate O'Neill. To watch full interviews with past and future guests, or for updates on what Kate O'Neill is doing next, subscribe to The Tech Humanist Show hosted by Kate O'Neill channel on YouTube. Full Transcript: Kate: The global workforce is experiencing an unprecedented level of change. The Great Resignation may look like a direct result of the COVID Pandemic, but the drivers behind this large-scale trend come from deep-rooted and centuries-old issues in employer-employee dynamics that have been amplified by evolving technology. So in this episode, we're exploring the lessons we've learned from the technologization — the impact of technology on work, as well as how the changing work landscape is pushing people to crave and demand more agency over our work and our lives. I recently had the opportunity to speak with Giselle Mota, Principal Consultant on the Future of Work at ADP, who offered some insight into the emotional human factor behind these changes. Giselle: “I think it's more about us realizing that work is not all that we are. Some people have left their very high-paying roles because they had stress about it, or because they need to be at home caregiving, or now they have issues with their own healthcare or mental health that came up, and they're prioritizing self over this idea of ‘I live to work I live to work I live to work,' right? The value system of humanity globally has shifted a lot, and people have been reassessing, ‘how do I want to spend my time?' ‘How do I want to live my life?' Work should not be driving all of that, our lives should be driving work experience. The ability to think about choosing when you're gonna work, ability to work from different places, how long is my work week, can I come in and out of my shifts throughout the day, can I work on projects, can I destructure and break down what work is and work at it my way? I think that's what we've been seeing.” Kate: Before we can fully understand why this is happening, we have to look at where we are and how we got here. Trends like the Great Resignation follow many years of jobs being automated or shipped overseas. Fewer people are needed to fill the remaining roles, so demand for workers in certain markets is disappearing, while in other markets, the supply of workers for a given job is so high that people aren't paid a living wage. With the rise of the ‘gig economy,' it's becoming less clear what level of education is needed to attain a well-paying job that will still be around in 5 years. Not that this is an entirely new phenomenon. Since at least the dawn of the industrial era, automation caused certain jobs to go out of favor while other jobs sprang up to fill the void. In the 21st century, with the advent of the Internet, algorithms, and ‘big data,' this cycle has been significantly accelerated. More jobs have been “optimized” by technology to prioritize maximum efficiency over human well-being, which is part of what's causing—as I talked about in our last episode—a global mental health crisis. And while the overview sounds bad, there is good news. As long as we can stay open-minded to change, we can work together to design solutions that work for everyone. And if we can do that, the future of work has the potential to be much brighter than the realities of today. To get there, we have to ask ourselves, what assumptions were made in the past to create the modern work environment, and which of those no longer serve us? Rahaf: “If we're gonna move to a more humane productivity mindset, we have to have some uncomfortable conversations about the role of work in our lives, the link between our identity and our jobs and our self-worth, our need for validation with social media and professional recognition, our egos…” Kate: That's Rahaf Harfoush, a Strategist, Digital Anthropologist, and Best-Selling Author who focuses on the intersections between emerging technology, innovation, and digital culture. You may have heard the extended version of this quote in our last episode, but her insight into how questioning our assumptions about work is playing into the changing work landscape felt equally relevant here. Rahaf: “We really have to talk about, ‘growing up, what did your parents teach you about work ethic?' how is that related to how you see yourself? Who are the people that you admire? You can start testing your relationship with work, and you start to see that we have built a relationship with work psychologically where we feel like if we don't work hard enough, we're not deserving. We don't ever stop and say, ‘does this belief actually allow me to produce my best possible work, or is it just pushing me to a point where I'm exhausted and burnt out?” Kate: Outside of our own personal assumptions about our relationship with work, there's also the relationship businesses and technology have with us as consumers, and how their assumptions about what we want are equally problematic. John: “I've read a lot of media, where there's a lot of assumptions that I would call, if not arrogant, certainly dismissive, if not wildly rude… You'll read an article that's like, ‘This machine does X, it shovels! Because no one wants to shovel for a living'!” Kate: That's John C. Havens, Executive Director of the IEEE Global Initiative on Ethics of Autonomous and Intelligent Systems. Here he's talking about the current belief held by a lot of the people creating modern technologies that everything can be automated, no matter the cost. John: “We've all done jobs that, elements of it you really don't like and wish could be automated, but usually that's because you do the job long enough to realize, this part of my job I wish could be automated. I've done a lot of, y'know, camp counseling jobs for the summer where I was outside, y'know I was doing physical labor… it was awesome! That said, you know, I was like, ‘this is great for what it was, I kind of don't want to do this for my whole life.' Yeah, a lot of people would not be like, ‘give me 40 years of shoveling!' But the other thing there that I really get upset about when I read some of those articles is what if, whatever the job is, insert job X, is how someone makes their living? Then it's not just a value judgment of the nature of the labor itself, but is saying, from the economic side of it, it's justified to automate anything that can be automated, because someone can make money from it outside of what that person does to make money for them and their family. We have to have a discussion about, y'know, which jobs might go away. Why is that not brought up? It's because there's the assumption, at all times, that the main indicator of success is exponential growth. And a lot of my work is to say, I don't think that's true.” In many ways, our society has failed to question the assumption ‘if something can be automated, automate it.' But as the great Ian Malcolm said in Jurassic Park, “your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.” While automation of jobs is frequently thought of in a manufacturing context, more and more we're seeing automating creep into other areas as well, like decision-making and workplace management. The same factories where machines are replacing physical human labor have now been optimized to replace human thought labor and managers as well. Christopher Mims, tech columnist at the Wall Street Journal and author of Arriving Today, on how everything gets from the factory to our front door, calls this phenomenon “Bezosism.” Christopher: “Bezosism, it's like the modern-day version of Taylorism or Fordism… the bottom line is, this is how you optimize the repetitive work that people do. This isn't just Amazon, Amazon is just the tip of the sphere. Amazon is the best at doing this, but every other company that can is trying to do the same thing: make workers more productive by managing them with software and algorithms, kind of whatever the consequence is. Emily Gindelsberger talks about how, whether it's an Amazon warehouse, or any fast-food restaurant you can name, or a call center… all of these places are now managed by algorithm, and the workers are monitored by software. Instead of a boss telling them to work faster, it's the software cracking the whip and being like, ‘you're not working fast enough, you need to pick packages faster' in this Amazon warehouse, or ‘you need to flip burgers faster' if you work at a McDonald's. But this is becoming the dominant way that work is organized if you don't have a college degree, if you're an hourly worker. You know, the whole phenomenon of the gig economy, the rise of part-time work, subcontracting, the so-called ‘fissured workplace'—all of that is, as one person put it, do you work above the API, like, are you a knowledge worker who's creating these systems? Or do you work below the API, where, what's organizing your work and your life—it's a piece of software! I mean, it's designed by humans, but your boss is an algorithm. And that is becoming, other than wealth and income inequality, one of the defining characteristics of, almost a neo-feudalism, ‘cause it's like, ‘hey! we've figured out how to organize labor at scale, and extract the most from people and make them work as efficiently as possible… we'll just let the software do it!'” Kate: The acceleration of this style of management is a big part of the driver pushing people to question our assumptions about work and begin to demand more agency. If you've been following my work for a while, you've heard me say, “the economy is people”, and that means we can't talk about the future of work without talking about the future of the worker. The idea that people, especially those doing what is considered ‘unskilled' labor, have little agency over how they work isn't new. AI may have exacerbated the issue, but the problem goes back as far as labor itself. Labor unions arose in the early 19th century in an attempt to level the playing field and allow workers to express their needs and concerns, but as we've seen with the recent Starbucks and Amazon unionization stories, the battle for human rights and agency in the workplace is far from decided. And it isn't just factories and assembly lines—it's happening in every industry. In the tech industry, there's a subset of people known as “Ghost Workers,” a term created by anthropologist Mary L. Gray and computer scientist Siddharth Suri to describe the usually underpaid and unseen workers doing contract work or content moderation. They frequently work alone, don't interact with one another, and often aren't even aware who they're working for, so the idea of collective bargaining feels farther out of reach. Dorothea Baur, a leading expert & advisor in Europe on ethics, responsibility, and sustainability across industries such as finance, technology, and beyond, explains some of the human rights issues at play in this phenomenon. Dorothea: “If you look at heavily industrialized contexts or like, heavy manufacturing, or like, textile industry, the rights we talk about first are like the human rights of labor, health and safety, etc. But I mean, trade unions have come out of fashion awhile ago, a lot of companies don't really like to talk about trade unions anymore. So when we switch to AI you think, ‘oh, we're in the service industry, it's not labor intensive,' but the human factor is still there. Certainly not blue collar employees, at least not within the own operations of tech companies, and also maybe not as many white collar employees, in relation to their turnover as in other contexts, but there's a lot of people linked to tech companies or to AI, often invisible. We have those Ghost Workers, gig economy, or people doing low-payed work of tagging pictures to train algo—uh, data sets, etc., so there is a labor issue, a classical one, that's really a straightforward human rights case there.” Kate: Algorithms have worked their way into the systems that manage most of our industries, from factory workers to police to judges. It's more than just “work faster,” too. These algorithms are making decisions as important as where and how many police should be deployed, as well as whether bail should be set, and at what amount. The logical (but not necessarily inevitable) extreme of this way of thinking is that all decisions will be relegated to algorithms and machines. But if people with the ability to make decisions continue to give these types of decisions to machines, we continue to lose sight of the human in the equation. What little decision making power the workers had before is being taken away and given to AI; little by little, human agency is being stripped away. The question then becomes, what if an algorithm tells a worker to do something they think is wrong? Will they have the freedom to question the algorithm, or is the output absolute? Dr. Rumman Chowdhury, Director of the Machine Learning Ethics, Transparency, and Accountability team at Twitter, elaborates. Rumman: “So if we're talking about, for example, a recommendation system to help judges decide if certain prisoners should get bail or not get bail, what's really interesting is not just how this affects the prisoner, but also the role of the judge in sort of the structure of the judicial system, and whether or not they feel the need to be subject to the output of this model, whether they have the agency to say, ‘I disagree with this.' A judge is a position of high social standing, they're considered to be highly educated… if there's an algorithm and it's telling them something that they think is wrong, they may be in a better position to say, ‘I disagree, I'm not going to do this,' versus somebody who is let's say an employee, like a warehouse employee, at Amazon, or somebody who works in retail at a store where your job is not necessarily considered to be high prestige, and you may feel like your job is replaceable, or worse, you may get in trouble if you're not agreeing with the output of this model. So, thinking about this system that surrounds these models that could actually be a sort of identically structured model, but because of the individual's place in society, they can or cannot take action on it.” Kate: The jury — if you'll pardon the expression — is still out on these questions, but we do know that in the past, worker agency was a key element in the success of our early systems. In fact, in the early days of creating the assembly line, human agency was fundamental to the success of those systems. Christopher Mims again. Christopher: “The Toyota production system was developed in a context of extreme worker agency, of complete loyalty between employer and employee, lifelong employment in Japan, and workers who had the ability to stop the assembly line the instant they noticed that something was not working, and were consulted on all changes to the way that they work. Honestly, most companies in the US cannot imagine functioning in this way, and they find it incredibly threatening to imagine their hourly workers operating this way, and that's why they all—even ‘employee-friendly' Starbucks—uses all these union busting measures, and Amazon loves them… because they just think, ‘oh, god, the worst thing in the world would be if our ‘lazy' employees have some say over how they work. It's nonsense, right? There's an entire continent called Europe where worker counsels dictate how innovations are incorporated. You know, that's how these things work in Germany, but we have just so destroyed the ability of workers to organize, to have any agency… Frankly, it is just disrespectful, it's this idea that all this labor is “unskilled,” that what you learn in this jobs has no real value… I think companies, they're just in this short term quarter-to-quarter mentality, and they're not thinking like, ‘how are we building a legacy? How do we retain employees, and how do we make productivity compatible with their thriving and happiness?' They all give lip service to this, but if you push as hard as Starbucks for instance against a labor union, honestly you're just lying.” Kate: Throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, Unions were an imperfect but necessary solution to ensuring workers had access to rights, freedoms, and safety in certain workplaces. According to a 2020 report from the Economic Policy Institute, Unionized workers earn on average 11.2% more in wages than nonunionized peers, and Black and Hispanic workers get an even larger boost from unionization. However, it looks like the changing nature of work is changing unionization as well. Unlike the Great Depression, which expanded the reach of labor unions, the Great Recession may have ushered in a period of de-unionization in the public sector. From the 1970s to today, the percentage of U.S. workers in a union has fallen from 25 to just 11.7 percent. In a piece of good news for Amazon employees in New York, they successfully voted for a union in their workplace on April 4th of this year, marking the first victory in a years-long battle for Amazon employee rights and agency. Looking forward, it's hard to say whether unions will be the best solution to worker woes. As more jobs become automated and fewer humans are needed in the workplace, there may be a time when there are only a few employees in a given department, which makes it harder to organize and empower collective bargaining. At the same time, being the only person working in your department may in fact give you more power to influence decisions in your workplace, as Christopher Mims explains. Christopher: “If you reduce the number of humans that work in a facility, it's like a tautology—the ones that remain are more important! Because in the old days, you could hire thousands of longshoreman to unload a ship, if one of them didn't show up, like, who cares? But if you're talking about a professional, today, longshoreman who's making in excess of 6 figures, has these incredibly specialized skills, knows how to operate a crane that can lift an 80,000 lb. shipping container off of a building-size ship, and safely put it on the back of a truck without killing anybody—that person doesn't show up to work, you just lost, y'know, a tenth of your productivity for that whole terminal that day. This is also an example of this tension between, like, it's great that these are good-paying blue-collar jobs, there aren't that many left in America, however, their negotiating power is also why the automation of ports has really been slowed. So that is a real genuine tension that has to be resolved.” Kate: So far in this episode, we've talked a lot about factory workers and the types of jobs that frequently unionize, but the future of work encompasses everyone on the work ladder. In the past, all of the problems regarding lack of worker agency has applied to ‘white collar' jobs as well. The modern office workplace evolved in tandem with factories, and the assumptions about how work should be organized are just as present there. Vanessa: “Our work environments, with who was involved with it and how they were constructed, is something that has been done over a long period of time. And the people who have been involved in that who are not White men, who are not sort of property owners, who are not otherwise wealthy, is a really short timeline.” Kate: That's Vanessa Mason, research director for the Institute for the Future's Vantage Partnership. Here she's explaining how workplace culture evolved from a factory mindset—and mostly by the mindset of a particular subgroup of people. Offices may feel like very different places from factories, but when you look at the big picture, the organizational structures are guided by many of the same ideas. Vanessa: “I think that a lot of organizations and offices are fundamentally sort of command and control, kind of top-down hierarchies, unfortunately. You know, the sort of, ‘the manager does this! Accountability only goes one direction! There's a low level of autonomy depending on what level you are in the chart!' All of those treat humans like widgets. I think that we have to keep in mind that history and that experience, like I still bring that experience into the workplace—basically, I'm in a workplace that was not designed for me, it's not meant for me to succeed, it's not meant for me to even feel as socially safe and as comfortable. There's a lot of research about psychological safety in teams. Like, our teams are not meant to be psychologically safe, they're set up to basically be office factories for us to sort of churn out whatever it is that we're doing in an increasingly efficient manner, productivity is off the charts, and then you receive a paycheck for said efforts. And it's only right now (especially in the pandemic) that people are sort of realizing that organizational culture 1) is created, and 2) that there's an organizational that people didn't realize that they were kind of unintentionally creating. And then 3) if you want your organizational culture to be something other than what it is, you need to collectively decide, and then implement that culture. All of those steps require a sort of precondition of vulnerability and curiosity which people are really frightened to do, and they're trying to escape the sort of harder longer work of negotiating for that to occur.” Kate: And that's what's needed from our managers and leaders as we navigate to a brighter future of work: vulnerability and curiosity. The vulnerability to admit that things could be better, and the curiosity to explore new ways of structuring work to allow more room for agency and decision-making to bring out the best in everyone. If the idea of a union sounds scary or expensive, perhaps there are other ways to allow employees the have more agency over how they work. A world in flux means there's still room to test new solutions. Lately, one of the changes business leaders have tried to make to their organizations is to bring in more diversity of workers. Women, people of color, neurodivergent minds, and people with disabilities have all been given more opportunities than they have in the past, but as Giselle Mota explains, just bringing those people into the workplace isn't enough. Giselle: “I read a study recently that was talking about, even though a lot of diverse people have been hired and promoted into leadership roles, they're leaving anyway. They don't stick around an organization. Why is that? Because no matter what the pay was, no matter what the opportunity was, some of them are realizing, this was maybe just an effort to check off a box, but the culture doesn't exist here where I truly belong, where I'm truly heard, where I want to bring something to the forefront and something's really being done about it. And again it has nothing to do with technology or innovation, we have to go back to very human, basic elements. Create that culture first, let people see that they have a voice, that what they say matters, it helps influence the direction of the company, and then from there you can do all these neat things.” Kate: If you're managing a workplace that has functioned one way for a long time, it may not be intuitive to change it to a model that is more worker agency-driven. How can you change something you may not even be aware exists? Vanessa Mason has a few tips for employers on what they can do to help bring about a new workplace culture. Vanessa: “And so what you can do, is really fundamentally listening! So, more spaces at all hands for employees to share what their experience has been, more experience to share what it is like to try to get to know co-workers. You know, anything that really just surfaces people's opinions and experiences and allows themselves to be heard—by everyone, I would say, also, too. Not just have one team do that and then the senior leadership just isn't involved in that at all. The second thing is to have some kind of spaces for shared imagination. Like all the sort of popular team retreats that are out there, but you certainly could do this asynchronously, at an event, as part of a celebration. Celebrating things like, y'know, someone has had a child, someone's gotten married, someone's bought a house—all of those things are sort of core to recognizing the pace and experience of being human in this world that aren't just about work and productivity. And then some way of communicating how you're going to act upon what you're hearing and what people are imagining, too. There's a bias towards inaction in most organizations, so that's something that certainly senior leadership should talk about: ‘How do we think about making changes, knowing that we're going to surface some changes from this process?' Being transparent, being accountable… all of those sort of pieces that go along with good change management.” Kate: A 2021 paper in the Journal of Management echoes these ideas, stating that communication between employers and their workers need to be authentic, ongoing, and two-directional, meaning that on top of listening to employee concerns, managers also needed to effectively communicate their understanding of those concerns as well as what they intended to do about them. A professional services firm analyzing a company's internal messaging metadata was able to predict highly successful managers by finding people who communicated often, responded quickly, and were action-oriented. Of course another thing many workplaces have been trying, especially in the wake of the COVID pandemic, is allowing employees to work remotely. Giselle Mota again. Giselle: “I think all we're seeing is we're just reimagining work, the worker, and workplace. Now that the pandemic happened, we learned from like Zoom, ‘wait a minute, I can actually work remotely, and still learn and produce and be productive, on a video!' But now, we can add layers of experience to it, and if you so choose to, you can now work in a virtual environment… people are flattening out the playing field. Companies that used to be die-hard ‘you have to work here in our office, you have to be here located right next door to our vicinity,' now they've opened it up and they're getting talent from across the pond, across the globe, from wherever! And it's creating new opportunities for people to get into new roles.” Kate: Although COVID and Zoom accelerated a lot of things, the idea of people working from home instead of the office isn't actually a new one. AT&T experimented with employees working from home back in 1994, exploring how far an organization could transform the workplace by moving the work to the worker instead of the other way around. Ultimately, they freed up around $550M in cash flow by eliminating no longer needed office space. AT&T also reported increases in worker productivity, ability to retain talent, and the ability to avoid sanctions like zoning rules while also meeting Clear Air Act requirements. As remote work on a massive scale is a relatively new phenomenon, the research is still ongoing as to how this will affect long-term work processes and human happiness. It is notable that working remotely is far less likely to be an option the farther you drop down the income ladder. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, only 9.2% of workers in the bottom quartile of wage-earners have the ability to work remotely. The availability also varies depending on the job you're doing, with education, healthcare, hospitality, agriculture, retail, and transportation among the least-able to work remotely, and finance and knowledge workers among the most-able. Because we aren't entirely sure whether remote work is the best long-term solution, it's worth looking at other ways to attract high-value workers—and keep them around. One idea? Invest in career planning. Technology is making it easier than ever for employers to work with their employees to plan for a future within the company. AI has made it possible to forecast roles that the company will need in the future, so rather than scramble to fill that role when the time comes, employers can work with a current or prospective employee to help prepare them for the job. In my conversation with Giselle Mota, she explored this idea further. Giselle: “A lot of companies are now able to start applying analytics and forecast and plan, ‘okay, if this is a role for the future, maybe it doesn't exist today, and maybe this person doesn't yet have all the qualifications for this other role. But, they expressed to us an interest in this area, they expressed certain qualifications that they do have today, and now AI can help, and data can help to match and help a human, you know, talent acquisition person, career developer, or manager, to help guide that user to say, ‘this is where you are today, this is where you want to be, so let's map out a career plan to help you get to where you should be'.” Kate: She went on to explain that employers don't need to think about jobs so rigidly, and rather than looking for one perfect person to fill a role, you can spread the tasks around to help prepare for the future. Giselle: “I was talking to someone the other day who was saying, ‘y'know, we have trouble finding diverse leadership within our organization and bringing them up,' and I was talking to them and saying, ‘break down a job! Let people be able to work on projects to be able to build up their skillset. Maybe they don't have what it takes today, fully, on paper to be what you might be looking for, but maybe you can give them exposure to that, and help them from the inside of your organization to take on those roles.” Kate: All of these changes to work and the workplace mean that a lot of office workers can demand more from their jobs. Rather than settle for something nearby with a rigid schedule, people can choose a job that fits their lifestyle. As more of these jobs are automated, we are hopefully heading for an age where people who were relegated to the so-called “unskilled” jobs will be able to find careers that work for them. Because it is more than the workplace that is changing, it's also the work itself. I asked Giselle what types of jobs we might see in the future, and she had this to say. Giselle: “As we continue to explore the workplace, the worker, and the work that's being done, as digital transformation keeps occurring, we keep forming new roles. But we also see a resurgence and reemergence of certain roles taking more importance than even before. For example, leadership development is on the rise more than ever. Why? Because if you look at the last few years and the way that people have been leaving their workplaces, and going to others and jumping ship, there's a need for leaders to lead well. Officers of diversity have been created in organizations that never had it before because the way the world was going, people had to start opening up roles like that when they didn't even have a department before. As we move into more virtual experiences, we need creators. We're seeing organizations, big technology organizations, people who enable virtual and video interactions are creating layers of experience that need those same designers and that same talent—gamers and all types of creators—to now come into their spaces to help them start shaping the future of what their next technology offerings are gonna look like. Before, if you used to be into photography or graphic design or gaming or whatever, now there's space for you in these organizations that probably specialize in human capital management, social management… To give you a quick example, Subway! Subway opened up a virtual space and they allowed an employee to man a virtual store, so you could go virtually, into a Subway, order a subway sandwich down the line like you're there in person, and there's someone that's actually manning that. That's a job. And apart from all of that side of the world, we need people to manage, we need legal counsel, we need people who work on AI and ethics and governance—data scientists on the rise, roles that are about data analytics… When Postmates came out and they were delivering to people's homes or wherever it was, college campuses, etc., with a robot, the person who was making sure that robot didn't get hijacked, vandalized, or whatever the case is—it was a human person, a gamer, it was a young kid working from their apartment somewhere, they could virtually navigate that robot so that if it flipped over on its side or whatever, it would take manual control over it, set it right back up, and find it and do whatever it needed to do. So that's an actual role that was created.” Kate: While many people fear that as jobs disappear, people will have to survive without work — or rather, without the jobs that provide them with a livelihood, an income, a team to work with, and a sense of contribution — the more comforting truth is that we've always found jobs to replace the ones that went out of fashion. When cars were invented, the horse-and-buggy business became far less profitable, but those workers found something else to do. We shouldn't be glib or dismissive about the need individual workers will have for help in making career transitions, but in the big picture, humans are adaptable, and that isn't something that looks like it will be changing any time soon. Giselle: “Where we're seeing the direction of work going right now, people want to have more agency over how they work, where they work, themselves, etc. I think people want to own how they show up in the world, people want to own more of their financial abilities, they want to keep more of their pay… If you just wade through all of the buzzwords that are coming out lately, people want to imagine a different world of work. The future of work should be a place where people are encouraged to bring their true full selves to the table, and that they're heard. I think we've had way too much of a focus on customer experience because we're trying to drive profitability and revenue, but internally, behind the scenes, that's another story that we really need to work on.” Kate: The more aware we are of the way things are changing, the better able we are to prepare for the future we want. Even in the face of automation and constantly-evolving technologies, humans are adaptable. One thing that won't be changing any time soon? Workers aren't going to stop craving agency over their jobs and their lives, and employers aren't going to stop needing to hire talented and high-value employees to help their businesses thrive. Hopefully you've heard a few ideas in this episode of ways to lean into the change and make your business, or your life, a little bit better. Even more hopeful is the possibility that, after so much disruption and uncertainty, we may be entering a moment where more people at every stage of employment feel more empowered about their work: freer to express their whole selves in the workplace, and able to do work that is about more than paying the bills. That's a trend worth working toward. Thank you so much for joining me this week on The Tech Humanist Show. In our next episode, I'm talking about why it behooves businesses to focusing on the human experience of buying their product or service, rather than the customer experience. I'll see you then.

This week, we look at a few of the macro trends shaping both the labor market today and the future of work — such as the Great Resignation and collective bargaining — and examine how tech-driven business has both brought them about and potentially given workers more freedom and leverage.