Podcast appearances and mentions of joe moore

In this episode, Joe Moore talks with Megan Portnoy, a doctoral candidate in clinical psychology at Antioch University New England, about how ontological design can reshape the environments used in psychedelic-assisted therapy. Megan explains how physical space is not just a backdrop but an active participant in the therapeutic process, influencing emotion, cognition, and healing. She recently won an award for her presentation on this topic at PsychedelX. They explore how design principles that foster awe, play, and flexibility can deepen integration and expand what's possible in clinical settings. The conversation also examines how psychedelic communities can balance openness with discernment, apply more psychological rigor, and avoid falling into ungrounded or high-demand group dynamics. This rich discussion bridges psychology, philosophy, design, and culture—inviting us to think critically about not only how we use psychedelics, but the spaces, systems, and stories that shape our collective evolution.  

Joe and Kyle open with reflections from their first r/psychonaut AMA, then pivot to why they're building Navigators—our off-social community with book/film clubs, early ad-free episodes, mentorship, and an expanding education library. The core discussion explores touch and bodywork in breathwork and psychedelic contexts: why defaulting to “no touch” and moving slowly matters; informed consent; reading nonverbals; and keeping client agency central. They unpack trauma-informed concepts like the window of tolerance, polyvagal‐adjacent ideas (and critiques), and the ethics of avoiding re-traumatization or facilitator-driven interventions (“WAIT: Why am I Talking/Treating/Touching?”). The duo emphasize that bodywork requires specialized training and careful framing—supportive, not performative. Plus: updates on upcoming offerings—Advanced Shadow Work with Dr. Ido Cohen (starts Oct 20), music for sessions, digital security for practitioners, spiritual emergence, somatics/trauma, and inner-work integration. Join Navigators to learn in community and help shape future conversations.

This episode gave me goosebumps — and you'll understand why soon.Today, I'm speaking with the identical twin sisters Cipriana Quann and TK Wonder, hosts of the Chew on Something podcast and founders of Urban Bush Babes, a lifestyle platform celebrating the multi-faceted lives of women of color.Cipriana is a former Vogue writer; TK Wonder is a rapper and singer who's opened for artists like Nas and Afrika Bambaataa. Together, they've starred in campaigns for Fendi, Valentino, Tiffany & Co., Sephora, and more.I first saw them years ago in New York City during my Condé Nast days — two striking women shaping culture and fashion. I never imagined that years later, they'd be sitting on The New Health Club podcast couch in Denver with Joe Moore from Psychedelics Today and me, sharing one of the most powerful healing stories I've ever heard.Cipriana and TK open up about surviving sexual, physical, and childhood abuse — and how, for years, they used sugar and comfort food to numb the pain. Their discovery of Ibogaine, a plant medicine known for its deep psychological healing, completely transformed their relationship with their bodies and their health.This is a story about sisterhood, resilience, and the power of psychedelics to help us finally face what we've been running from — and heal for good.In this episode:How trauma shapes our relationship with foodThe healing potential of IbogaineFrom fashion icons to wellness voicesWhat real transformation looks like after trauma✨ How we used food to numb our trauma — and how Ibogaine helped us heal from it.INSTAGRAM@CiprianaQuann@TK-Wonder FOLLOW US ON IG@TheNewHealhInstitute @TheNewHealthClub @philippianne LINKEDIN https://www.linkedin.com/in/annephilippi/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Joe and Kyle debrief a hometown Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork weekend in Breckenridge, then sketch the next chapter for Psychedelics Today: a community-centric model (Navigators) that bundles education, live streams, book and film clubs, and small-group access. They kick around the big “creativity + psychedelics” question, contrast subjective “I feel creative” with objective task performance, and highlight new research—from DMT's potential in stroke recovery to breathwork's measurable effects. They wrap with quick hits on MAPS leadership, state policy moves, and what's coming up at PT this fall. Highlights & takeaways Breathwork > substance? A reminder that profound states are accessible without drugs; benefits of facilitating at home (rested facilitators = safer, better containers). What is “shamanism,” really? A functional frame: non-ordinary states, interaction with the unseen, and service (healing/divination). Community > one-off courses: PT is shifting toward a monthly membership model to keep prices accessible, deepen relationships, and sustain more free content. Creativity debate: Double-blind study (DMT + harmine vs harmine vs placebo) suggests impaired convergent thinking despite increased felt creativity; how to define and measure “creativity” fairly, and other research outcomes might tell a different story. Whitehead & novelty: A quick tour through Alfred North Whitehead's notion of “creativity” as the principle of novelty—useful language for mapping psychedelic insight to real-world change. Neuro + clinical frontiers: DMT for stroke (animal models): BBB stabilization and reduced neuroinflammation signal a promising adjunct to current care. Cluster headaches: Emerging reports on short-acting DMT for rapidly aborting cluster cycles; more data coming soon. Breathwork science: New imaging work associates music-supported hyperventilatory breathwork with blissful affect and shifts in blood flow. News & culture mentioned MAPS leadership: Betty Aldworth & Ismail (Izzy) Ali named permanent Co-Executive Directors. Policy snapshots: Colorado Natural Medicine Board recommending ibogaine (with Nagoya-compliance requirement); Alaska signature gathering; Massachusetts activity. Media & scene: Hamilton's recent appearances; contamination concerns in some “psilocybin” products; “psychedelics tick far more neurons than expected” paper; mixed findings for postpartum depression.

Episode summary Joe and Mary dive into how platform censorship and shifting algorithms have reshaped psychedelic media, why DoubleBlind moved to a “newsletter-first” model, and what that's revealed about true audience engagement. They reflect on the post-2024 MDMA decision headwinds, state-level policy moves (wins and losses), and how funding, politics, and culture continue to reconfigure the field. They also explore alternatives to alcohol, chronic pain research, reciprocity around iboga/ibogaine, and lessons from PS25 (MAPS' Psychedelic Science 2025). Highlights & themes From platforms to inboxes: Social and search suppression (IG/FB/Google) throttled harm-reduction journalism; DoubleBlind's pivot to email dramatically improved reach and engagement. Post-MDMA decision reality: Investment cooled; Mary frames it as painful but necessary growth—an ecosystem “airing out” rather than a catastrophic pop. Policy pulse: Mixed year—some state measures stalled (e.g., MA), others advanced (e.g., NM; ongoing Colorado process). Rescheduling cannabis may add complexity more than clarity. Censorship paradox: Suppressing education makes use less safe; independent outlets need community support to keep harm-reduction info visible. Chronic pain & long COVID: Emerging overlaps and training efforts (e.g., Psychedelics & Pain communities) point beyond a psychiatry-only frame. Alcohol alternatives: Low-dose or occasional psychedelic use can shift habits for some; Mary stresses individual context and support beyond any single substance. Reciprocity & iboga: Rising interest (including from right-leaning funders) must include Indigenous consultation and fair benefit-sharing; pace of capitalism vs. community care is an active tension. PS25 field notes: Smaller, more manageable vibe than 2023; fewer “gold-rush” expectations; in-person dialogue beats online flame wars. Notable mentions DoubleBlind: Newsletter-first publishing; nurturing new writers and reported stories. Psychedelics & Pain Association / Clusterbusters: Community-driven models informing care and research (cluster headache protocols history). Books & media: Body Autonomy (Synergetic Press anthology); Joanna Kempner's work on cluster headaches - Psychedelic Outlaws; Lucy Walker's forthcoming iboga film. Compounds to watch: LSD (under-studied relative to MDMA), 2C-B, 5-MeO-DMT (synthetic focus), and broader Shulgin-inspired families.   Mary Carreon: [00:00:00] Okay, I'm gonna send it to my dad because he wants to know. Here Joe Moore: we go. Yeah, send it over. So, hi everybody. We're live Joe here with Mary Anne, how you doing today? Mary Carreon: I'm great Joe. How are you? Joe Moore: Lovely. I actually never asked you how to pronounce your last name does say it right? Mary Carreon: Yes, you did. You said it perfectly Joe Moore: lovely. Joe Moore: Um, great. So it's been a bit, um, we are streaming on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitch X and Kick, I guess. Yeah. Kick meta. Meta doesn't let me play anymore. Um, Mary Carreon: you're in forever. Timeout. I got it. I got it. Yeah. Joe Moore: Yeah. I think they found a post the other day from 2017. They didn't like, I'm like, oh cool. Like neat, you Mary Carreon: know, you know. Mary Carreon: Yeah. That happened to me recently, actually. Uh, I had a post taken down from 2018 about, uh, mushroom gummies and yeah, it was taken down and I have strikes on my account now. So Joe Moore: Do you get the thing where they ask you if you're okay? Mary Carreon: Yes, with, but like with my searches though, [00:01:00] like if I search something or, or someone's account that has, uh, like mushroom or psychedelic or LSD or something in it, they'll be like, mm-hmm are you okay? Mary Carreon: And then it recommends getting help. So Joe Moore: it's like, to be fair, I don't know if I'm okay, but Yeah, you're like, probably not. I don't really want your help. Meta. Yeah. Mary Carreon: You're like, I actually do need help, but not from you. Thanks. Yeah, Joe Moore: yeah, yeah. Mary Carreon: So not from the techno fascists. Joe Moore: Oh, good lord. Yeah. Uh, we'll go there. Joe Moore: I'm sure. Mary Carreon: I know. I just like really dove right there. Sorry. Yeah. All right, so let's, Joe Moore: um, before we go, let's give people like a bit of, you know, high kicks on, on who is Mary, where you working these days and what are you doing? Mary Carreon: Yeah, thank you. My name is Mary Carryon and I am forever and first and foremost a journalist. Mary Carreon: I have been covering, I say the plant legalization spaces for the past decade. It's, it's been nine and a half years. Uh, on January 3rd it will be [00:02:00] 10 years. And I got my start covering cannabis, uh, at OC Weekly. And from there went to High Times, and from there went to Mary Jane, worked for Snoop Dogg. And then, uh, I am now. Mary Carreon: Double blind. And I have become recently, as of this year, the editor in chief of Double Blind, and that's where I have been currently sinking my teeth into everything. So currently, you know, at this moment I'm an editor and I am basically also a curator. So, and, and somebody who is a, uh, I guess an observer of this space more than anything these days. Mary Carreon: Um, I'm not really reporting in the same way that I was. Um, but still I am helping many journalists tell stories and, uh, I feel kind of like a story midwife in many ways. Just like helping people produce stories and get the, get the quotes, get the angles that need to be discussed, get the sentences structures right, and, um, uh, helping [00:03:00] sometimes in a visionary kind of, uh, mindset. Mary Carreon: So yeah, that's what I'm doing these days. Joe Moore: Oh, there it is. Oh, there you are. Love that. And um, you know, it's important to have, um, editors who kind of really get it from a lot of different angles. I love that we have a lot of alignment on this kind of, and the drug war thing and kind of let's, uh, hopefully start developing systems that are for people. Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. If you wanna just say that. Yeah, absolutely. Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. Joe Moore: So, um, yeah, I almost 10 years in January. That's great. We um, it's so crazy that it's been that long. I think we just turned nine and a half, so we're maybe just a few, a few months shorter than your I love it. Plant medicine reporting career. Joe Moore: That's great. I love it. Um, yeah, so I think. I think one of the first times we chatted, [00:04:00] um, I think you were doing a piece about two cb Do you, do you have any recollection of doing a piece on two cb? Mary Carreon: I do, yes. Yes. Wait, I also remember hitting you up during an Instagram live and I was like, are you guys taking any writers? Mary Carreon: And you guys were like writers, I mean, maybe depending on the writer. Joe Moore: And I was like, I was like, I dunno how that works. Mary Carreon: Like me. Yeah. Joe Moore: Yeah. It was fun. It was fun to work with people like yourself and like get pieces out there. And eventually we had an awesome editor for a bit and that was, that was really cool to be able to like support young startup writers who have a lot of opinions and a lot of things to point out. Joe Moore: There's so much happening. Um, there was so much fraud in like wave one. Of kind of the psychedelic investment hype. There's still some, but it's lesser. Um, and it's really a fascinating space still. Like changing lives, changing not just lives, right? Like our [00:05:00] perspective towards nearly everything, right? Joe Moore: Yeah. Mary Carreon: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting because the space has matured. It's evolved. It's different than it was even, what a, I mean, definitely nine years ago, but even five years ago, even four years ago, even last year, things are different. The landscape is different than it was a year ago. Mary Carreon: And I, it's, it's interesting to see the politics of things. It's interesting to see who has money these days given like how hard it is just to kind of survive in this space. And it's interesting just to. Bear witness to all of this going down because it really is a once in a lifetime thing. Nothing is gonna look the same as it does now, as it, uh, then it will like in a, in a year from now or anything. Mary Carreon: So it's really, yeah. It's interesting to take account of all of this Joe Moore: That's so real. Uh, maybe a little [00:06:00] too real, like it's serious because like with everything that's going on from, um, you know, governance, governments, ai Yes. Drug policy shifts. Drug tech shifts, yes. There's so much interesting movement. Um, yes. Joe Moore: You, you know, you, you kind of called it out and I think it's really actually worth discussing here since we're both here on the air together, like this idea that the psychedelic market, not idea, the lived experience of the psychedelic market having shifted substantially. And I, I, I think there's a lot of causes. Joe Moore: But I've never had the opportunity to really chat with you about this kind of like interesting downturn in money flowing into the space. Mm-hmm. Have you thought about it? Like what might the causes be? I'm sure you have. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, I have. Yeah. I've thought about it. I mean, it's hard. Well, I don't know. I am really not trying to point fingers and that's not what I'm [00:07:00] trying to do here. Mary Carreon: But I mean, I think a lot of people were really hopeful that the FDA decision last June, not last June, the previous June, a year ago, 2024, June was going to open the floodgates in terms of funding, in terms of, um. In terms of mostly funding, but also just greater opportunities for the space and, uh, greater legitimacy granted to the psychedelic medicine space. Mary Carreon: Mm. And for those who might not know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the, uh, FDA decision to reject, uh, MDMA assisted therapy and, um, that whole, that whole thing that happened, I'm sure if it, you didn't even have to really understand what was going on in order to get wind of that wild situation. Mary Carreon: Um, so, so maybe, yeah. You probably know what I'm talking about, but I, I do think that that had a great impact on this space. Do I think it was detrimental to this space? [00:08:00] I don't think so. We are in a growth spurt, you know, like we are growing and growing pains happen when you are evolving and changing and learning and figuring out the way forward. Mary Carreon: So I think it was kind of a natural process for all of this and. If things had gone forward like while, yeah, there probably would be more money, there would be greater opportunity in this space for people wanting to get in and get jobs and make a living and have a life for themselves in this, in this world. Mary Carreon: I don't know if it was, I don't know if it would necessarily be for the betterment of the space in general for the long term. I think that we do have to go through challenges in order for the best case scenarios to play out in the future, even though that's difficult to say now because so many of us are struggling. Mary Carreon: So, but I, but I have hope and, and that statement is coming from a place of hope for the future of this space and this culture. Joe Moore: Yeah. It's, um, I'm with [00:09:00] you. Like we have to see boom bust cycles. We have to see growth and contraction just like natural ecosystems do. Mary Carreon: Absolutely, absolutely. It has to be that way. Mary Carreon: And if it's not that way, then ifs, if. It's, it like what forms in place of that is a big bubble or like a, a hot air balloon that's inevitably going to pop, which, like, we are kind of experiencing that. But I think that the, I think that the, um, the, the air letting out of the balloon right now is a much softer experience than it would be if everything was just like a green light all the way forward, if that makes sense. Mary Carreon: So, Joe Moore: right. And there's, there's so many factors. Like I'm, I'm thinking about, uh, metas censorship like we were talking about before. Yes. Other big tech censorship, right? Mm-hmm. SEO shifts. Mary Carreon: Oh. Um, yes, absolutely. Also, uh, there were some pretty major initiatives on the state level that did not pass also this past year that really would've also kind of [00:10:00] helped the landscape a little bit. Mary Carreon: Um. In terms of creating jobs, in terms of creating opportunities for funding, in terms of having more, uh, like the perception of safer money flow into the space and that, you know, those, those things didn't happen. For instance, the measure for in Massachusetts that didn't go through and just, you know, other things that didn't happen. Mary Carreon: However, there have been really good things too, in terms of, uh, legalization or various forms of legalization, and that's in New Mexico, so we can't, you know, forget that there, and we also can't forget just the movement happening in Colorado. So there are really great things happening and the, the movement is still moving forward. Mary Carreon: Everything is still going. It's just a little more difficult than maybe it could have been Joe Moore: right. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Yes. But also, we Mary Carreon: can't forget this censorship thing. The censorship thing is a horse shit. Sorry. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to cuss, but it is, [00:11:00] but it is Joe Moore: calling it out and it's important to say this stuff. Joe Moore: And you know, folks, if you want to support independent media, please consider supporting Doubleblind and psychedelics today. From a media perspective, absolutely. We wanna wanna put as much out as we can. Yes. The more supporters we have, the more we can help all of you understand what's happening and yes. Joe Moore: Getting you to stay safer. Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the whole difficulty with the censorship is that psychedelics today, and Doubleblind for instance, but also Lucid News, also other, uh, other influencers, other creators in the space, they like. What all of us are doing is putting out information that is ultimately creating a safer user experience. Mary Carreon: And so with the censorship, we are not able to do so anymore, which creates actually a lot of danger. So. Yeah, it's, it's difficult. The censorship is difficult, and if you are somebody who posts about psychedelics, I know that you know this and I am preaching to the choir. Joe Moore: Yeah. So can you talk a [00:12:00] little bit about you all at Double Blind made a major shift in the last number of months towards, uh, kind of not necessarily putting everything out there and, and kind of like, um, actually I don't even know the language you use. Joe Moore: What's the, what's the language you use for the kind of model shift you took on? Mary Carreon: Yeah, I mean, it's great. It's been a wild shift. It's been a wild shift. Um, what we are currently doing is we went to a newsletter first model, which instead of just posting onto a website for everyone to see, and then, um, you know, hopefully getting SEO hits and also posting on their, then posting those stories onto Instagram and Facebook and Twitter, and hoping to get traffic through social media. Mary Carreon: Uh, we decided that that was no longer working for us because it wasn't, um, because the censorship is so bad on, on social media, like on Instagram, for instance, and Facebook and Twitter, well, less on Twitter, [00:13:00] but still, nonetheless on social media, the censorship is so bad. And also the censorship exists on Google. Mary Carreon: When you Google search how to take mushrooms, double blinds is not even on. You know, our guide is not on the first page. It's like, you know, way the heck, way the heck down there. Maybe page 2, 3, 4, 5. I don't know. But, um, the issue, the issue with that, or, or the reason why rather that it's that way is because Google is prioritizing, um, like rehabilitation centers for this information. Mary Carreon: And also they are prioritizing, uh, medical information. So, like WebMD for instance. And all of these organizations that Google is now prioritizing are u are, are, are, are organizations that see psychedelic use through the lens of addiction or through drug drug abuse. So [00:14:00] again, you know, I don't know, take it for how you want to, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna tell anybody like what is the right way to use their substances or whatever. Mary Carreon: However, it's really important to have the proper harm reduction resources and tools available. Uh, just readily available, not five pages down on a Google search. So anyways, all of that said double blind was our traffic was way down. And it was looking very bleak for a while. Just we were getting kicked off of Instagram. Mary Carreon: We weren't getting any traffic from social media onto our website, onto our stories. It was a, it was a vicious kind of cycle downward, and it wasn't really working. And there was a moment there where Doubleblind almost shut down as a result of these numbers because there's a, like you, a media company cannot sustain itself on really low page views as a result. Mary Carreon: So what we [00:15:00] decided to do was go to a newsletter first model, which relies on our email list. And basically we are sending out newsletters three days a week of new original content, mostly, uh, sometimes on Wednesdays we repost an SEO story or something like that. Um, to just to engage our audience and to work with our audience that way, and to like to actually engage our audience. Mary Carreon: I cannot emphasize that enough because on Instagram and on Facebook, we were only reaching like, I don't know, not that many people, like not that many people at all. And all of that really became obvious as soon as we started sending out to our email list. And as soon as we did that, it was wild. How many, how many views to the website and also how many just open like our open rate and our click through rate were showing how our audience was reacting to our content. Mary Carreon: In other words. [00:16:00] Social media was not a good, in, like, was not a good indicator of how our content was being received at all because people kind of weren't even receiving it. So going to the newsletter first model proved to be very beneficial for us and our numbers. And also just reaching our freaking audience, which we were barely doing, I guess, on social media, which is, which is wild, you know, for, for a, an account that has a lot of followers, I forget at this exact moment, but we have a ton, double blind, has a ton of followers on, on Instagram. Mary Carreon: We were, we, we get like 500 likes or, you know, maybe like. I don't know. If you're not looking at likes and you're looking at views, like sometimes we get like 16 K views, which, you know, seems good, but also compared to the amount of followers who follow us, it's like not really that great. And we're never reaching new, like a new audience. Mary Carreon: We're always reaching the same audience too, [00:17:00] which is interesting because even with our news, with our, with our email list, we are still reaching new people, which is, which says just how much more fluid that space is. Mm-hmm. And it's because it's, because censorship does not at least yet exist in our inboxes. Mary Carreon: And so therefore email is kind of like the underground, if you will, for this kind of content and this type of material journalism, et cetera. So, so yeah. So it, it, it has been a massive shift. It is required a lot of changes over at double blind. Everything has been very intense and crazy, but it has been absolutely worth it, and it's really exciting that we're still here. Mary Carreon: I'm so grateful that Double-Blind is still around, that we are still able to tell stories and that we are still able to work with writers and nurture writers and nurture the storytelling in this space because it needs to evolve just the same way that the industry and the [00:18:00] culture and everything else is evolving. Joe Moore: Yeah, I think, I think you're spot on like the, when I watch our Instagram account, like, um, I haven't seen the number change from 107 K for two years. Mary Carreon: Absolutely. Same. And, um, same. Joe Moore: Yeah. And you know, I think, I think there's certain kinds of content that could do fine. I think, uh, psychedelic attorney, Robert Rush put up a comment, um, in response to Jack Coline's account getting taken down, um, that had some good analysis, um. Joe Moore: Of the situation. Go ahead. You had No, Mary Carreon: no, I'm just like, you know, I can't, when, when journalists are getting kicked off of these, of these platforms for their stories, for their reported stories, that's like, that is a massive red flag. And that's all I have to say. I mean, we could go into more, more details on that, but that is a [00:19:00] huge red flag. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, for sure. The, I, yeah. And like I'm sure he'll get it back. I'm sure that's not for good, but I think he did. Okay, great. Mary Carreon: I think he did. Yeah. Yeah, I think he did. Joe Moore: Yeah. So thank you. Shout out to Jack. Yeah, thanks Jack. Um, and I think, you know, there's, there's no one with that kind of energy out there. Joe Moore: Um, and I'm excited to see what happens over time with him. Yeah. How he'll unfold. Absolutely unfold. Oh yeah. It's like, um. Crushing the beat. Mary Carreon: Oh yeah, absolutely. Especially the political, the political beat. Like, there's no, there's few people who are really tackling that specific sector, which is like mm-hmm. Mary Carreon: So exciting for a journalist. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so model shifting, like we all have to like, adapt in new ways. Kyle and I are still trying to figure out what we're gonna do. Like maybe it is newsletter first. Like I, I realized that I hadn't been writing for [00:20:00] years, which is problematic, um, in that like, I have a lot of things to say. Mary Carreon: Totally. Joe Moore: And nobody got to hear it. Um, so I started a substack, which I had complicated feelings about honestly. 'cause it's just another. Rich person's platform that I'm, you know, helping them get Andreessen money or whatever. And, you know, so I'm gonna play lightly there, but I will post here and there. Um, I'm just trying to figure it all out, you know, like I've put up a couple articles like this GLP one and Mushrooms article. Mary Carreon: I saw that. I saw that. Really? And honestly, that's a really, like, it's so weird, but I don't, like, it's such a weird little thing that's happening in the space. I wonder, yeah, I wonder, I wonder how that is going to evolve. It's um, you know, a lot of people, I, I briefly kind of wrote about, um, psychedelics and the GLP, is that what it is? Mary Carreon: GLP one. Joe Moore: GLP one. Say Ozempic. Yeah, just, yeah, Ozempic. Yeah, exactly. Mary Carreon: Yeah, exactly. I wrote about [00:21:00] that briefly last year and there were a bunch of people like obviously horrified, which it is kind of horrifying, but also there's a bunch of people who believe that it is extremely cutting edge, which it also is. Mary Carreon: So it's really interesting, really fascinating. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I remember Bernie Sanders saying like, if this drug gets as much traction as it needs to, it will bankrupt Medicaid. I guess that's not really a problem anymore. Um, but, but, uh, but so like naming it real quick, like it changed the way we had to digest things, therefore, like mushrooms get digested differently and, um, some people don't respond in the expected ways. Joe Moore: And then there was some follow up, oh, we, in the regulated model, we just do lemon tech. And then I was like, is that legal in the regulated model? And I, I don't know the answer still. Mm-hmm. Like there was a couple things, you know, if users know to do it, you know, I don't, I don't totally understand the regulated model's so strange in Oregon, Colorado, that like, we really need a couple lawyers opinions. Joe Moore: Right. I think Mary Carreon: yes, of course Joe Moore: the lawyers just gave it a [00:22:00] thumbs up. They didn't even comment on the post, which is, laughs: thanks guys. Um, Joe Moore: but you know, laughs: yeah. You're like, thank you. Joe Moore: Thanks and diversity of opinions. So yeah, there's that. And like GLP ones are so interesting in that they're, one friend reached out and said she's using it in a microdose format for chronic neuroinflammation, which I had never heard of before. Joe Moore: Whoa. And um, I think, you know, articles like that, my intent was to just say, Hey, researchers yet another thing to look at. Like, there's no end to what we need to be looking at. Abso Mary Carreon: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, reporting on this space actually taught me that there's so much just in general that isn't being researched, whether that's in this space, but also beyond and how, um, yeah, just how behind, actually, maybe not, maybe behind isn't the right word, but it kind of feels from my novice and from my novice place in the, in the world and [00:23:00] understanding research, it's. Mary Carreon: Hard for me to see it as anything, but being behind in the research that we all really need, that's really going to benefit humanity. But also, you know, I get that it's because of funding and politics and whatever, whatever, you know, we can go on for days on all of that. Joe Moore: What's the real reason? What's the real reason? Joe Moore: Well, drug war. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Well, yeah, definitely the drug war. Nixon. Yeah. Yes, yes, definitely the drug war. Yeah. I mean, and just the fact that even all of the drug research that happens is, again, through the lens of addiction and drug abuse, so Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Hard to right. Yeah. Um, like ni a is obviously really ridiculous and, and the way they approach this stuff, and Carl Hart illustrates that well, and, Mary Carreon: oh man, yes, he does. Joe Moore: Like, I think Fadiman's lab in Palo Alto got shut down, like 67, 66 or 67, and like that's, you know, that was one of the later ones, Mary Carreon: right? And, Joe Moore: and like, Mary Carreon: and here we are. Joe Moore: The amount of suffering that could have been alleviated if we [00:24:00] had not done this is. Incalculable. Um, yes. Yes. Yeah. Mary Carreon: I mean the, yeah, it's hard to say exactly how specifically it would be different, but it's difficult to also not think that the fentanyl crisis and the opioid addiction rate and situation that is currently like plaguing the, the world, but particularly the United States, it's hard to think that it wouldn't be, like, it wouldn't be a different scenario altogether. Joe Moore: Right, right. Absolutely. Um, and it's, um, it's interesting to speculate about, right? Like Yeah. Yes. Where would we be? And Mary Carreon: I know, I know, I know, I know it is speculation. Absolutely. But it's like hard, as I said, it's hard not to think that things would be different. Joe Moore: Right. Right. Um, I like, there's two kind of quotes, like, um, not, this one's not really a quote. Joe Moore: Like, we haven't really had a [00:25:00] blockbuster psychiatric med since Prozac, and I think that was in the eighties or early nineties, which is terrifying. And then, um, I think this guy's name is James Hillman. He is kinda like a Jungian, um, educator and I think the title of one of his books is, we're a hundred Years Into Psychotherapy and the World is Still a Mess. Joe Moore: And I think like those two things are like, okay, so two different very white people approaches didn't go very far. Yes. Um, yes and laughs: mm-hmm. Joe Moore: Thankfully, I think a lot of people are seeing that. Mm-hmm. Um, finally and kind of putting energy into different ways. Um, Mary Carreon: yeah. Absolutely. I think, yeah, I mean, we need to be exploring the other options at this point because what is currently happening isn't working on many fronts, but including in terms of mental health especially. Mary Carreon: So mm-hmm. We gotta get going. Right? We [00:26:00] gotta get moving. Geez. Joe Moore: Have you all, have you all seen much of the information around chronic pain treatments? Like I'm, I'm a founding board member with the Psychedelics and Pain Association, which has a really fun project. Oh, that's interesting. Mary Carreon: Um, I've seen some of the studies around that and it's endlessly fascinating for obvious, for obvious reasons. Mary Carreon: I, um, we have a writer who's been working for a long time on a story, uh, about the chronic pain that has since. Become an issue for this, for her, for the writer. Mm-hmm. Um, since she had COVID. Mm-hmm. Since, since she is just like, COVID was the onset basically of this chronic pain. And, um, there she attended a psychedelics in pain, chronic pain conference and, uh, that has pretty much like, changed her world. Mary Carreon: Um, well, in terms of just the information that's out there, not necessarily that she's painless, but it's just, you know, offering a, a brand new, a brand new road, a brand new path that is giving her, [00:27:00] um, relief on days when the pain is, uh, substantial. laughs: Yeah. Mary Carreon: So that's interesting. And a lot of people are experiencing that as well. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So there's, there's a really cool set of overlap between the COVID researchers, long COVID researchers and the chronic pain people. 'cause there is Yes. This new science of pain that's yes. Our group, PPA put out like a really robust kind of training, um, for clinicians and researchers and even patients to get more educated. Joe Moore: And we're, we're getting, um, kind of boostered by cluster busters and we're kind of leveraging a lot of what they've done. Mary Carreon: Wait, what is a cluster buster? Joe Moore: Oh gosh. Um, so they're a 5 0 1 C3. Okay. Started with Bob Wald. Okay. Bob Wald is a cluster headache survivor. Oh, oh, oh, Mary Carreon: okay. Got it. Got it. Yes. So they're Joe Moore: the charity that, um, has been really championing, um, cluster headache research because they found a protocol [00:28:00] with mushrooms. Joe Moore: Yes, yes, yes. To eliminate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, this really great, I Mary Carreon: love that. Joe Moore: This really great book was written by a Rutgers, um, I think medical sociologist or anthropologist psychedelic. Love laughs: that. Joe Moore: Joanna Kempner. Cool. Um, and it kind of talks about the whole, um, cluster busters saga, and it was, it was pretty cool. Joe Moore: Nice. So they've been at it for about as long as maps. Um, oh wow. Maybe a little earlier. Maybe a little later. Mary Carreon: I love that. Cool. I mean, yeah, that's really great. That's really great. Joe Moore: So we're copying their playbook in a lot of ways and Cool. We about to be our own 5 0 1 C3 and, um, nice. And that should be really fun. Joe Moore: And, uh, the next conference is coming up at the end of next month if people wanna check that out. Psychedelic. Nice. Mary Carreon: Nice, nice, nice. Cool. Joe Moore: Yeah, so that, like, how I leaned into that was not only did I get a lot of help from chronic pain with psychedelics and going to Phish shows and whatever, um, you know, I, and overuse for sure helped me somehow. Joe Moore: [00:29:00] Um, God bless. Yeah. But I, I like it because it breaks us out of the psychiatry only frame for psychedelics. Mm. And starts to make space for other categories. Mm-hmm. Is one of the bigger reasons I like it. Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Which, like, we need to be, we need to, we, no one else is gonna do it for us. We like the people in the space who are finding new uses for these substances need to be creating those, those pathways and those new niches for people to then begin studying, et cetera, and exploring and yeah. Mary Carreon: Making, making a proper avenue for, Joe Moore: right, right. And, you know, um, I don't know that this is a Maha thing, so No, I'm going there, I guess, but like, how do we kind of face squarely America and the world's drinking problems? Not [00:30:00] knowing what we know now about alcohol, you know what I mean? And then like, what are the alternatives? Joe Moore: You know, some, some writers out there on substack are very firm that everybody needs to not do any substance. And like all psychedelics are super bad and drugs are evil, you know, famous sub stackers that I won't name. But you know, like what is the alternative? Like, I, like we have to have something beyond alcohol. Joe Moore: And I think you've found some cannabis helpful for that. Mary Carreon: Yeah, I, you know, it's, it's interesting because it's, there are, there's definitely an argument to be made for the power of these substances in helping, I don't wanna, I don't wanna say curb, but definitely reduce the symptoms of, uh, wanting to use or to drink or to consume a specific substance. Mary Carreon: There's obviously there is an argument to be made. There are, there is ano another camp of people who are kind [00:31:00] of in the, in the, in the, in the realm of using a drug to get off of a drug isn't how you do it. However, and, and I do, it depends on the individual. It depends on the individual and the, and how that person is engaging with their own addiction. Mary Carreon: I think for whether or not the substances work, like whether psychedelics work to help somebody kind of get off of alcohol or get off of cocaine or stop using opioids or, you know, et cetera. Mm-hmm. However, I think like, when the situation is so dire, we need to be trying everything. And if that means, like, if, like, you know, if you look at the studies for like smoking cessation or alcohol use, mushrooms do help, psilocybin does help with that. Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. But, you know, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that also need to happen. There's a lot of things that also need to happen in order for those, uh, that relief to maintain and to stick and to, uh, really guide [00:32:00] somebody off of those substances. Mm-hmm. It's not just the substance itself. Joe Moore: Right. So I'm, I'm explicitly talking like recreational alternatives, right. Like how do I Yeah. On per minute, like, am Anitas becoming helpful? Yeah, yeah. Are helpful and Yeah. Yeah. I think like even, um, normal. What we might call like normal American alcohol use. Like Yeah. That's still like, quite carcinogenic and like, um, absolutely. Joe Moore: We're kind of trying to spend less as a country on cancer treatments, which I hope is true. Then how do we, how do we develop things that are, you know, not just abstinence only programs, which we know for sure aren't great. Mary Carreon: Yeah. They don't work. Yeah. I don't, it's, it's difficult. Mm-hmm. It's difficult to say. Mary Carreon: I mean mm-hmm. I don't know. Obviously I, I, well, maybe it's not obvious at all for people who don't know me, but, you know, I exist in a, I exist in, in a world where recreational use is like, it's like hard to define what recreational use is because if we are using this, if we are using mushrooms or LSD even, or MDMA, [00:33:00] you know, there are so many, there's a lot of the therapy that can happen through the use of these substances, even if we're not doing it, you know, with a blindfold on or whatever and yeah, I think like. Mary Carreon: There is a decent swap that can happen if you, if you are somebody who doesn't wanna be, you know, having like three beers a night, or if you are somebody who's like, you know, maybe not trying to have like a bottle of wine at a night or something like that, you know, because like Americans drink a lot and a lot of the way that we drink is, um, you know, like we don't see it as alcoholism. Mary Carreon: Even though it could be, it could be that's like a difficult Joe Moore: potentially subclinical, but right there. Mary Carreon: Um, yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's, um, we don't see it as that because everybody, a lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people drink like that, if that makes sense. If you know mm-hmm. If you, if you get what I'm, if you get what I'm saying. Mary Carreon: So, you know, I do think that there's a lot of benefit that, I don't [00:34:00] know, having, like a, having a mushroom, having a mushroom experience can really help. Or sometimes even like low dose, low doses of mushrooms can also really help with, like, with the. Desire to reach for a drink. Yeah, totally. And, and AMS as well. Mary Carreon: I know that that's also helping people a lot too. And again, outside of the clinical framework. Joe Moore: Yeah. I'm, a lot of people project on me that I'm just like constantly doing everything all the time and I'm, I'm the most sober I've been since high school. You know, like it's bonkers that like Yeah. Um, and you know, probably the healthiest event since high school too. Joe Moore: Yeah. But it's fa it's fascinating that like, you know, psychedelics kind of helped get here and even if it was like For sure something that didn't look like therapy. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I think, I think most of us here in this space are getting projected on as to like, you know, being like what Normies would consider druggies or something, or that we are just like, you know, high all the time. Mary Carreon: Um, [00:35:00] I know that that is definitely something that I face regularly, like out in the world. Um, but, you know, I would also, I would also argue that. Uh, like mushrooms have completely altered my approach to health, my approach to mental health, and not even having to consume that, you know, that substance in order or that, you know, that fun fungi, in order for me to like tap into taking care of my mental health or approaching better, uh, food options, et cetera. Mary Carreon: It's kind of like what these, it's like how the mushrooms continue to help you even after you have taken them. Like the messages still keep coming through if you work with them in that capacity. Right. And yeah, and also same with, same with LSD too. LSD has also kind my experiences with that have also guided me towards a healthier path as well. Mary Carreon: I, I understand that maybe for some people it's not that way, but, um, for me that substance is a medicine as well, [00:36:00] or it can be. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so. What are, what are some things popping up these days about like US drug policy that's like getting exciting for you? Like, are you feeling feeling like a looming optimism about a, a major shift? Joe Moore: Are you kind of like cautiously optimistic with some of the weird kind of mandatory minimum stuff that's coming up or? Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that there was a huge, a, a pretty huge shift over at the DEA and I wish I remembered, I wish I remembered his name. The new guy who's now, I believe the head of the DEA, I don't know enough information about it to really feel a way. Mary Carreon: However, I don't think that he's necessarily going to be serving us as a community here, uh, in the psychedelic space. I, you know, I just don't think that that's something that we can ever depend on with the DEA. Uh, I also don't think that [00:37:00] the DEA is necessarily going to be. All that helpful to cannabis, like the cannabis space either. Mary Carreon: Um, I know that, that Trump keeps kind of discussing or, or dangling a carrot around the rescheduling of cannabis. Um, for, he's been, he's been, but he's doing it a lot more now. He's been talking about it more recently. Uh, he says like, in the next like couple weeks that he's going to have some kind of decision around that, allegedly. Mary Carreon: But we will see also, I'm not sure that it's going to necessarily help anybody if we reschedule two. Uh, what from schedule one to schedule th two, three, schedule three. Joe Moore: Either way it's like not that useful. Right. Exactly. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, um, just going to probably cause a lot more red tape and a lot of confusion for the state rec markets. Mary Carreon: So it's like something that we, it's like only ridden with unintentional, unintentional consequences. Unintended consequences. Mm-hmm. Because no one knows how it's really going to [00:38:00] impact anything, um, if, if at all. But I don't know. It's hard, it's hard to imagine that there won't be any, uh, like more complex regulatory issues for business owners and also probably consumers as well. Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. This guy's name's Terry Cole. Mary Carreon: Oh, the new DEA guy. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I don't know much about him. Terry. Yeah. Terry, I would love to chat. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Terry, let's talk. I'm sure your people Joe Moore: are watching. Yeah. So like, just let him know. We wanna chat. Yeah. We'll come to DC and chat it out. Um, yeah. It's, um, but yeah, I, Carl Hart's solution to me makes like almost most of the sense in the world to just end the scheduling system Absolutely. Joe Moore: And start building some sort of infrastructure to keep people safe. That's clearly not what we have today. Mary Carreon: No. But building an infrastructure around the health and wellness and uh, safety of [00:39:00] people is the exact opposite system that we have currently right now. Because also the scheduling system has a lot to do with the incarceration in the United States and the criminal just, or the criminal system. Mary Carreon: So, so yeah, like we can't disentangle the two really. Joe Moore: It just started, um, I feel negligent on this. Uh, synergetic press put out a book like a year or two ago called Body Autonomy. Mm-hmm. Um, did that one come across your desk at all? Mm-hmm. No. I wish basically contributed. Oh, nice. A number of people. So it's both like, um. Joe Moore: Drug policy commentary and then like sex work commentary. Oh, nice. And it was like high level, like love that really, really incredible love that detailed science based conversations, which is not what we have around this. Like, that doesn't make me feel good. So you should go to jail kind of stuff. Or like, I'm gonna humiliate you for real though. Joe Moore: Ticket. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God. Uh, when you think about it like that, it just really also shows [00:40:00] just the uh, um, the level at which religion has also kind of fundamentally infused itself into the scheduling system, but also our laws, you know, like what you just said, this like, shame-based, I'm going to embarrass you and make you into a criminal when you know actually you are a law for the most part, a law abiding citizen, with the exception of this one thing that you're doing for. Mary Carreon: A, your survival and or your, like, your feeling good, wanting to feel good addressing pain. Um, there's a large, uh, like noise coming out of the front yard of my house right now. Hold on. Just a, it doesn't sound too bad. It doesn't sound too bad. Okay. Okay, good. Not at all. Not at all. Okay. Yeah, I had Joe Moore: people working on my roof all day and somehow it worked out. Joe Moore: Oh, good. Um, yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it's fascinating and I, I've been coming around like, I, I identify as politically confused, [00:41:00] um, and I feel like it's the most honest way I can be. Um, Mary Carreon: I am also politically confused these days, impossible to align with any, uh, party or group currently in existence at this exact juncture in American history. Joe Moore: I can't find any that I want to throw my dice in with. Nah. This idea of like fucking way being. Like what is the most humane way to do government as a way it's been put to me recently. And that's interesting. So it comes down to like coercion, are we caring for people, things like that. And um, I don't think we're doing it in a super humane way right now. Mary Carreon: Um, we, yeah, I am pretty sure that even if there was, I mean, I think that even if we looked at the data, the data would support that we are not doing it in a humane way. Joe Moore: So Mary Carreon: unfortunately, and Joe Moore: you know, this whole tech thing, like the tech oligarch thing, you kind of dropped at the beginning and I think it's worth bringing that back because we're, we're on all [00:42:00] these tech platforms. Joe Moore: Like that's kind of like how we're transmitting it to people who are participating in these other platforms and like, you know, it's not all meta. I did turn on my personal Facebook, so everybody's watching it there. I hope. Um, see if that count gets, Mary Carreon: um, Joe Moore: but you know, this idea that a certain number of private corporations kind of control. Joe Moore: A huge portion of rhetoric. Um, and you know, I think we probably got Whiffs of this when Bezos bought Washington Post and then Yes. You know, Musk with X and like yes. You know, is this kind of a bunch of people who don't necessarily care about this topic and the way we do, and they're like in larger topics too about humane government and like, you know, moving things in good directions. Joe Moore: Um, I don't know, thoughts on that rift there as it relates to anything you, wherever you wanna go. Yeah. Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I don't think that they are looking at, I don't think that they are looking [00:43:00] at it the way that we are. I don't think that they can see it from their vantage point. Um, I think that like, in the, in a similar way that so many CEOs who run businesses have no fucking clue about what's actually happening in their businesses and the actual workers and, and employees of their businesses can tell them in more detail. Mary Carreon: Far more detail about what's actually happening on the, on the floor of their own business. Uh, I think that it is something like that. However, that's not to say that, you know, these, these CEOs who employ people who build the A algorithm are obviously guided to create the limitations on us as people who speak about drugs, et cetera, and are creating a algorithm that ultimately is looking at things in a very blanket way in terms of, uh, like we're probably seen on the same level as like drug dealers, if that makes sense. Mary Carreon: Which is obviously a much, you know, there's, [00:44:00] it's a very different thing. Um, so, you know, there's like these CEOs are giving directions to their employees to ultimately create systems that harm. Information flow and inform and, and like the information health of, of platforms and of just people in general. Mary Carreon: So it's hard to say because there's nuance there, obviously, but I would bet you that someone like Elon Musk doesn't really have a full grasp as to the, the nuances and details of what's even happening within, on the ground floor of his businesses. Because that's like, not how CEOs in America run, run, and operate. Mary Carreon: They're stupid companies. So, so yeah. And I feel like that, like, that's across the board, like that's across the board. That's how I, that's probably how Zuck is operating with Meta and Facebook, et cetera. And yeah, just likewise and across, across the whole, [00:45:00] across the whole spectrum. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, um, a thing. Joe Moore: Then as the people like, we need to keep looking at how can we keep each other informed. And that's kind of circling back to drug journalism like we do and like, um, other, other sorts of journalism that doesn't really get the press it deserves. Right. And I've been getting far more content that I find more valuable off of tragically back on Zucks platform like IG is getting me so much interesting content from around the world that no major outlet's covering. Mary Carreon: That's so interesting. Like what? Like what would you say? Joe Moore: Oh, um, uh, certain, um, violent situations overseas. Oh, oh, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, you know, that America's paying for, so like, you know, I just don't love that I don't have a good, you know, journalistic source I can [00:46:00] point to, to say, hey, like right. Joe Moore: These writers with names, with addresses, like, and offices here. Yes. You know, they did the work and they're held, you know, they're ethical journalists, so yes. You can trust them. Right. You know what I mean? Yes, Mary Carreon: yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, all of this makes everything so much harder for determining, like, the censorship specifically makes it so much harder for the people to determine like, what's real, what's not. Mary Carreon: Because, because of exactly what you just said. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, we are, we are basically what that means, like what is required of the people and people who are consuming information is becoming a smart consumer and being able to determine what's real, what's not. How can we trust this individual? Mary Carreon: How can we not, which isn't analysis process that all of us need to be sharpening every single day, especially with the advent of AI and, uh, how quickly this, this type of content is coming at all of us. Like, especially if you're on TikTok, which many of us are, you know, like information comes flying at you 3000 miles an hour, and it's sometimes [00:47:00] really difficult to determine what's real, what's not, because AI is. Mary Carreon: AI is not where it's going to be, and it still is in its nascent phase. However, it's still pretty fucking good and it's still very confusing on there. So, so again, like the media literacy of the people needs to be sharpened every single day. We cannot be on there, we cannot be on the internet existing. Mary Carreon: That everything that we are seeing is real. Whether that's about, you know, these, um, the violence overseas, uh, happening at the hands of the United States, whether that is, uh, even drug information like, you know, et cetera, all of all of it. Or just like news about something happening at Yellowstone National Park or something that is happening in the, uh, at like. Mary Carreon: Um, like potential riots also happening at protests in downtown la, et cetera. Like all, all of it, we need to be so careful. And I think what that also, like, one way that [00:48:00] we can adjust and begin to develop our media literacy skills is talking to people maybe who are there, reaching out to people who are saying that they were there and asking them questions, and also sussing that out. Mary Carreon: You know, obviously we can't do that for all situations, but definitely some of them. Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Like, Joe Moore: um, a quick pivot. Mm-hmm. Were you at PS 25? Mary Carreon: Yes, I was. What did I think? Uh, you know, I, I was running around like crazy at this one. I felt like I didn't even have a second to breathe and I feel like I didn't even have a second to really see anybody. I was like, worry. I was jumping from one stage to the next. Mary Carreon: However, I would say, uh, one of, one of the things that I have said and how I felt about it was that I felt that this, this event was smaller than it was two years ago. And I preferred that I preferred the reduction in size just because it was, uh, less over, less overwhelming [00:49:00] in an, in an already very overwhelming event. Mary Carreon: Um, but I thought that from the panels that I did see that everyone did a really great job. I thought that maps, you know, it's impressive that maps can put on an event like that. Um, I also was very cognizant that the suits were there in full effect and, uh, you know, but that's not unusual. That's how it was last time as well. Mary Carreon: And, um, I felt that there was Mary Carreon: a, uh, like the, the, the level of excitement and the level of like opportunity and pro, like the prosperous. The like, prospect of prosperity coming down the pipeline like tomorrow, you know, kind of vibe was different than last time. Mm-hmm. Which that was very present at the one, two years ago, uh, which was the last PS psychedelic science. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Um, anyways. Yeah. But it was, you know, it was really nice to see everybody. [00:50:00] I feel like in-person events is a great way for everybody in the psychedelic space to be interacting with each other instead of like keyboard warrioring against each other, you know, uh, over the computer and over the internet. Mary Carreon: I think that, um, yeah, uh, being in person is better than being fighting each other over the internet, so, yeah. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. People seem to be a little bit more civil in person. Mary Carreon: Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And I think that that is something that we all need to be considering more often, and also inviting people from across the aisle to your events and creating peace, because in person it's a little different than it is. Mary Carreon: When you have the opportunity to, uh, yeah, like keyboard attack someone over the internet, it's like, yeah. It's just so silly. So silly. We look like fools. Like we look like absolute idiots doing that. And you know what? I cannot sit here and say that I haven't looked like an idiot. So, you know, it's like I'm not, I'm not talking from like a high horse over here, but, but you know, it's like, it's [00:51:00] better when it's in person. Mary Carreon: I feel like there's like more civil engagements that we can all have. Joe Moore: It's practice, you know? Yeah. We're learning. Yeah. We are. We should be learning, including us, and yes, of course. Um, I, I play a subtler game these days and, uh, you know, I, I, I, it's better when we all look a lot better in my opinion, because yes, we can inform policy decisions, we can be the ones helping inform really important things about how these things should get implemented and absolutely right. Joe Moore: Like, Mary Carreon: absolutely. Yeah, it does. It does. Nobody, any service, especially these medicines, especially these sacraments, especially these plants, these molecules, et cetera, if we are all sitting here fighting each other and like calling each other names and trying to dunk on one another, when like in reality, we are also all kind of pushing for the same thing more or less. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So a thing that [00:52:00] I, it's a, it's kind of a, I, I had a great time at PS 25. I have no, no real complaints. I just wish I had more time. Yeah, same. Um, same. Yeah. Our booth was so busy. It was so fun. Just good. And it was like, good. I, I know. It was really good. I'm trying to say it out loud. I get to talk at the conference before Rick did. laughs: Oh, oh, Joe Moore: the morning show they put us on at like seven 30 in the morning or something crazy. Oh my god. It was early. I dunno if it was seven 30. Mary Carreon: That's so early. That's so early. Joe Moore: Yeah, right. Like that's crazy. I got zero nightlife in That's okay. Um, I was not, I was there for work. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah. I was Joe Moore: jealous. I didn't party, but you know, whatever. Joe Moore: Yeah, yeah. Mary Carreon: I did not party this time really in the same way that I did at PS 20. Was it 2023? Joe Moore: 23, yeah. 23. I only stay up till 11 one night in 23. Nice. Mary Carreon: Okay. Um, okay. Joe Moore: So I behaved, I have a pattern of behaving. 'cause I like That's good. I'm so bent outta shape inside going into these things. I'm like, I know, I know. Joe Moore: And, and I'm like, oh, all [00:53:00] my friends are gonna be there. It's gonna be great. And then it's like, yeah. It's mostly friends and only a little bit of stress. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah. I had a, I had a great time. It was really good seeing everybody again. Like you, I wish that I had more time with people. Like there are people that I like didn't even see who are my friends, Joe Moore: so, which Yeah. Joe Moore: Which is sad. That's like a subtext in, in like the notes coming away from 25. Is that the, um, American Right, if we wanna call it that, is very interested in this stuff. Oh yeah. Like the Texas establishment. Oh yeah. Um, the Texas contingent, right? They're deep. They're real deep. Mm-hmm. I have, um, Mary Carreon: let's talk about that more. Mary Carreon: Yeah. So Joe Moore: it's optimistic in, in some sense that psychedelic science is getting funded more. By states. 'cause the feds aren't stepping up. Right. I love that. Right. Yeah. Like, Hey feds, look what we can do. And you can't somehow, and [00:54:00] then, um, we'll see if state rights stays around for a while longer, maybe, maybe not. Joe Moore: And then the other part is like, is there a slippery slope given the rhetoric around addiction and the rise in interest in iboga for compulsory addiction treatment with psychedelics or, or compulsory mental health treatments with psychedelics because of the recent, it's illegal to be a person without housing. Joe Moore: Um, and you're gonna get put in treatment. Mm. Like, that's now a thing. So like, I don't know, I don't think forced treatment's good at all. I, and I don't think like, um, like the data is something like 15% effective, maybe less. Right. Right. It's not a good use of money. I don't know. We're, let's, I. You can go there if you want, and riff on that, or if you wanna talk about like, Texas, um, Arizona more generally. Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I will just say this, I also don't really believe that forced treatment is like good, you [00:55:00] know, data Joe Moore: says it's bad. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I also, yeah, I mean, it's like, I don't know. Yeah, that's, it's complex. It's a complex issue. I also don't think it's good, but I also do think that we need a much better framework and foundation for like, if people do want the help, helping them get it. Mary Carreon: Much more easily and in a way that's going to be beneficial for them. Um, and I don't think that that system or that pathway currently exists as we saw in, uh, with, with, um, measure 1 0 9 and the failure of measure 1 0 9 or, or was it Measure 1 0 10, 1 10, measure one 10 in Oregon. Joe Moore: But did you see the response yesterday or two days ago? Joe Moore: No, I didn't. No, I didn't. I'll I'll send it to you later. Okay. So the university did the research, um, Portland State University did the research Yes. And said, Hey, look, there was actually 20 other things that were higher priority. Like that actually influenced this increase in overdoses, not our law. Mary Carreon: Right. Mary Carreon: Yes. It was really COVID for Okay. [00:56:00] Like for, yeah. Right. Absolutely. Also, there was not a. Like there was not a framework in place that allowed people to get off the street should they want to, or you know, like, like you just can't really have a, all drugs are legal, or small amounts of drugs are legal without also offering or creating a structure for people to get help. Mary Carreon: That, that's, you can't do one without the other. Unfortunately. That's just like a, that's faulty from the start. So that's all I'll really say about that. And I don't think that that had fully been implemented yet, even though it was something that wasn't ideal for the, um, for the, for the measure. And I believe it was measure one 10, not measure 1 0 9, to be clear. Mary Carreon: Measure one 10. Um, yes, but confirmed one 10 confirmed one 10, yes. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, uh, that's, you know, that's kind of what I'll say. That's what I'll, that's where I'll leave that portion. Mm-hmm. You know? Uh, but yeah, forced treatment. I don't know. [00:57:00] We can't be forcing, forcing people to do stuff like that. Mary Carreon: I don't know. It's not gonna, it's, yeah, it doesn't seem Joe Moore: very humane. Mary Carreon: Yeah. No. And it also probably isn't gonna work, so, Joe Moore: right. Like, if we're being conservative with money, like, I like tote, like to put on Republican boots once in a while and say like, what does this feel like? And then say like, okay, if we're trying to spend money smartly, like where do we actually get where we want to be? Joe Moore: And then sometimes I put on my cross and I'm like, okay, if I'm trying to be Christian, like where is the most, like, what is the most Christian behavior here in terms of like, what would the, you know, buddy Jesus want to do? And I'm just like, okay, cool. Like, that doesn't seem right. Like those things don't seem to align. Joe Moore: And when we can find like compassionate and efficient things, like isn't that the path? Um, Mary Carreon: compassionate and t. Yeah, even, I don't know, I don't know if it looks lefty these days, but Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Yeah. [00:58:00] Yeah. Um, yeah, it's complicated. It's complicated, you know, but going back, kind of, kind of pivoting and going back to what you were talking about in regards to the subtext, some of the subtext of like, you know, where psychedelic medicine is currently getting its most funding. Mary Carreon: You know, I do believe that that was an undercurrent at psychedelic science. It was the, the iboga conversation. And there's, there's a lot, there's a lot happening with the Iboga conversation and the Iboga conversation and, um, I am really trying to be open to listening to everyone's messages that are currently involved in. Mary Carreon: That rise of that medicine right now? Um, obviously, yeah, we will see, we'll see how it goes. There's obviously a lot of people who believe that this is not the right move, uh, just because there's been no discussions with, uh, the Wii people of West Africa and, you know, because of [00:59:00] that, like we are not talking to the indigenous people about how we are using their medicine, um, or medicine that does like that comes from, that comes from Africa. Mary Carreon: Um, also with that, I know that there is a massive just devastating opioid crisis here that we need to do something about and drug crisis that we need to be helping with. And this medicine is something that can really, really, really help. Um, I find it absolutely fascinating that the right is the most interested party in moving all of this forward, like psychedelic medicine forward. Mary Carreon: And I, I currently have my popcorn and I am watching and I am eating it, and I am going to witness whatever goes down. Um, but I'm, I, I hope that, uh, things are moving in a way that is going to be beneficial for the people and also not completely leave behind the indigenous communities where this medicine comes from. Joe Moore: [01:00:00] Mm-hmm. Mary Carreon: We'll see how it goes. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. It Joe Moore: would be lovely if we can figure it out. Um, I know, and I think, uh, Lucy Walker has a film coming out on Iboga. Mm. I got to see it at Aspen, um, symposium last summer, and it was really good. Mm. So I'm sure it'll be cut different, but it's so good and it tells that story. Joe Moore: Okay. Um, in a helpful way. I'm gonna, I, yeah. I always say I'm gonna do this. I'm like, if I have space, maybe I'll be able to email her and see if we can screen it in Colorado. But it's like a brilliant film. Yeah. Cool. This whole reciprocity conversation is interesting and challenging. And so challenging being one of the few countries that did not sign onto the Nagoya protocol. Joe Moore: Absolutely. We're not legally bound, you know, some countries are Mary Carreon: I know. Yes, yes, yes. So Joe Moore: we're, you know, how do we do that? How do we do that skillfully? We still haven't done it with, um, first Nations folks around their [01:01:00] substances. Um, I think mushrooms are a little flexible and account of them being global, um, from Africa to Ireland and beyond. Joe Moore: And, but you know, that's, we still want to give a nod to the people in Mexico for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, it's, I had some fun commentary there that I would love to flesh out someday. Uh, but yeah, it's not for today. Mary Carreon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there's, yeah, there's obviously, there's obviously a lot with the conversation of reciprocity here and, um, I know, I, I don't know. Mary Carreon: I, I, what I do know is that we need to be listening to the indigenous people, not just listening to them second, like secondhand or listening to them, uh, once we have moved something forward, like actually consulting with them as the process goes. And that, you know, the way that both parties move, indigenous folks and, uh, western folks move, uh, are at inherently different paces. Mary Carreon: And, [01:02:00] um, I just hope, and I wish, and I, I hope, I just hope that, uh, Western what, like the Western party, the western folks who are diving into these medicines. Slow the fuck down and listen and just are able to at least make one right move. Just one, just like you. Like it's, doesn't have to be this, it doesn't have to be that hard. Mary Carreon: Although the pace of capitalism usually propels, uh, the western folks at, at a much quicker rate than, u

Joe Moore sits down with Greg Shanken (Colorado Psychedelic Society, Collaborence Psychedelic Business Association; founder, Higher Frequency Network) for a wide-ranging conversation about building community infrastructure, navigating censorship, and creating accessible, ethical pathways into psychedelic healing. Greg shares his personal arc from lifelong depression to ayahuasca, ketamine, and Bufo; why he launched a vetted affiliate/partner network for our space; and how Oregon–Colorado collaboration can widen access while honoring reciprocity and conservation. Key themes Collaborence: a two-day CO/OR event (online + in-person) connecting facilitators, professionals, and the public with pay-what-you-can access options. Access & affordability: how to widen entry points (microdosing, breathwork, scholarships/funds) within and beyond regulated service/healing centers. Censorship & platform risk: why repeated Meta account shutdowns pushed Greg to build community-based distribution outside big ad networks. Personal journey: depression, SSRIs/SNRIs/ADHD meds → ayahuasca (two-night initiation), IM ketamine, and later Bufo/5-MeO-DMT. Ethics & ecology: “blood toad,” conservation, and the case for synthetic 5-MeO-DMT over toad-sourced material; parallels with peyote/mescaline carve-outs. Leadership & culture: bringing heart-centered leadership, breathwork, and microdosing into companies; moving from transactional to mutual-aid ecosystems. Regulated vs. underground: costs, insurance realities, sliding-scale models, and the role each plays in a healthy landscape.

In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with Dr. Cat Meyer, licensed psychotherapist, sex therapist, and host of Sex, Love, Psychedelics. Together, they explore the deep intersections of sexuality, trauma healing, psychedelics, and the role of play in human connection. Dr. Meyer shares her journey from growing up in rural Missouri and navigating early trauma to becoming a leading voice in sex therapy and psychedelic integration. She opens up about her personal healing path, her work with ketamine-assisted therapy, and how tantra, BDSM, and art have shaped her approach to erotic wellness. Topics Covered Defining the Erotic: Beyond sex, eroticism as vibrancy, life force, and connection to the senses. Personal Story: Dr. Meyer's early struggles, academic path in marriage and family therapy, and her discovery of tantra and BDSM as transformative practices. Psychedelics and Healing: Her first experiences with MDMA-assisted therapy, ketamine retreats for women, and how these tools can reconnect people with pleasure and embodiment. The Power of Play: Why play is essential for healing, relationships, and cultural transformation—ranging from improv and art to Burning Man experiments. Navigating Power Dynamics: How erotic transference, facilitation, and unconscious needs can shape therapy, sex, and psychedelic work—and why self-awareness is crucial. Feral Mysticism: Rewilding the body, reclaiming personal authority, and embracing vibrancy outside of cultural repression. Pleasure and Illness: How Dr. Meyer works with clients facing chronic pain, fatigue, or illness to maintain erotic connection through presence and small practices. Key Quotes “Eroticism is the connection to vibrancy, to life—it's how we engage with the world through pleasure.” “Feeling is power. A discerning human who can feel is a powerful human.” “Psychedelics help us come back into right relationship with our body and with pleasure.” “Play gives us the freedom to experiment, to try, to be vulnerable, and to learn without attaching our worth to the outcome.”  

Joe Moore interviews Dee Dee Goldpaugh, LCSW about their new book Embrace Pleasure: How Psychedelics Can Heal Our Sexuality. The discussion covers the book's reception, critiques of over-medicalization, personal healing experiences, definitions of erotic energy and pleasure, historical repression of substances, and contemporary ethical concerns. Key topics Conversion therapy: historical use of psychedelics in conversion practices, risks today, and need for professional consensus to ban psychedelic-assisted conversion therapy. Motivation: reaction to dominance of the clinical/medical model in psychedelics. Author background: clinical social worker, ketamine-assisted therapy provider, sexual abuse survivor, early psychedelic integration work. Personal healing: ayahuasca and San Pedro (Wachuma) experiences leading to embodied healing and pleasure. Concepts defined: erotic energy as life force; distinction between healing pleasure and leisure. Political framing: pleasure as anti-capitalist resistance; sustaining community and activism. Links https://www.deedeegoldpaugh.com Embrace Pleasure: How Psychedelics Can Heal Our Sexuality

First Presbyterian Church of San Antonio - Rev. Dr. Joe Moore 9-7-25 by First Presbyterian Church San Antonio

CBS College Football & NFL Analyst All-American at Notre Dame, Super Bowl Champion with the Packers, and founder of the Joe Moore Award, given to the top offensive line in college football. The Joe Moore Award is transitioning this year from just being an award given out at the end of the season to a year-round lifestyle brand anchored by a new YouTube show, Trench Life, that will feature Aaron and a rotating cast of guys like Cole Cubelic, Mike Golic Jr and more. Aaron tells some great stories about playing for Lou Holtz and the movie Rudy. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Former Notre Dame offensive lineman Aaron Taylor (1990-93) joins the Third & Gold Podcast to discuss his interview with Notre Dame offensive line coach Joe Rudolph for his new Trench Life show, the influence Joe Moore still has at Notre Dame, his expectations for this Irish offensive line, the possible rotation of Sullivan Absher and Guerby Lambert at right guard, what to do when Charles Jagusah returns, why Anthonie Knapp stayed at left tackle, right tackle Aamil Wagner's physical improvement, the Miami rivalry, team captains on the offensive line and more. Then Eric Hansen and Tyler James answer questions from X/Twitter and The Lou Somogyi Board (33:23). Third & Gold Podcast is presented by Academy Sports + Outdoors: https://www.academy.com/c/backpack

Welcome to Get Up in the Cool: Old Time Music with Cameron DeWhitt and Friends. This week's friend is Joe Moore! We recorded this on Monday at my home in Portland, OR. Tunes in this episode: * Nancy Dalton (1:56) * Hunting the Buffalo (17:28) * Cora Dye (33:45) * Rose in the Morning (55:42) * Ragged Coat (1:03:08) * BONUS TRACK: Charleston Gals Support Get Up in the Cool on Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/getupinthecool) Send Tax Deductible Donations to Get Up in the Cool through Fracture Atlas (https://fundraising.fracturedatlas.org/get-up-in-the-cool) Sign up at Pitchfork Banjo for my clawhammer instructional series! (https://www.pitchforkbanjo.com/) Schedule a banjo lesson with Cameron (https://www.camerondewhitt.com/banjolessons) Visit Tall Poppy String Band's website (https://www.tallpoppystringband.com/) and follow us on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/tallpoppystringband/)

Another archive episode from early in the podcast. Tommy Joe Moore is a fighter, trainer, author, and a UK national treasure. This conversation is a must for any true fight nerd. Tommy is a wealth of knowledge and one of the most down to earth people you'll meet. You can find our sponsor RallyPointST here https://rallypointst.com You can find our sponsor Absolute Security and Lock here http://absolutesecurityandlock.com You can find this shows website here https://www.thedistinguishedsavage.com The views, information, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and guest speakers and do not necessarily represent those of any associated organizations, employers, or sponsors. The opinions and views shared do not reflect the positions of our sponsors or their affiliated companies. This podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice in any field including but not limited to legal, medical, financial, or technical matters. All content is provided "as is" without warranties of any kind. We make reasonable efforts to ensure accuracy but cannot guarantee that all information presented is correct, complete, or up-to-date. Listeners should verify any critical information independently. Guest opinions belong to them alone. Our interviews with various individuals do not constitute endorsement of their views, products, or services. By listening to this podcast, you agree that we are not responsible for any decisions you make based on the information provided. Please consult with qualified professionals before making important decisions related to your health, finances, or legal matters. This podcast may contain explicit language or mature themes. Listener discretion is advised. © 2025 The Distinguished Savage, Savage Concepts LLC

In this episode, Joe Moore sits down with Dr. Case Newsom, an emergency room physician in Denver and Medical Director for both Zendo Project and Stadium Medical. They explore how psychedelic harm reduction is merging with event medicine at concerts, festivals, and large-scale gatherings. Dr. Newsom shares his path from osteopathic medical training to bridging emergency medicine with psychedelic peer support. He explains how the Zendo Project has expanded beyond Burning Man, and why collaboration with medical teams matters. The discussion highlights new triage protocols, cultural shifts in Colorado, and the legal challenges that still stand in the way of safer events. Topics Covered The role of the Zendo Project: Peer support, harm reduction, and creating grounded spaces in chaotic environments. Stadium Medical's model: Covering Denver's biggest venues and connecting emergency care with psychedelic peer support. Developing medical triage protocols: A simple system that reduces unnecessary ER transports while ensuring sitter and guest safety. Colorado as a hub: Why Denver and Red Rocks are central to psychedelic culture and harm reduction innovation. Legal and regulatory challenges: The impact of the RAVE Act and limits on drug checking services. Research and data collection: Building stronger studies to show venues and first responders the value of harm reduction. Future concerns: Ibogaine's cardiotoxic risks, the rise of AI-designed drugs, and why medical involvement is urgent. Ketamine in the ER: How ketamine provides pain relief and can create meaningful patient experiences when used with care.

In this episode, Joe Moore is joined by Kat Murti, Executive Director of Students for Sensible Drug Policy (SSDP), the largest youth-led network working to end the war on drugs. SSDP organizes at the campus, local, state, federal, and international levels, with more than 100 chapters across the U.S. and sister organizations worldwide. Kat shares her personal journey into drug policy reform, from witnessing DEA raids on AIDS patients in the 1990s to fighting for civil liberties as a student at UC Berkeley. She explains how SSDP empowers young people to challenge outdated laws and promote policies rooted in compassion, scientific evidence, and human rights. Topics Discussed The War on Drugs as a War on Us: Kat's early realizations about the drug war's racism, injustice, and destruction of civil liberties. Her Path to SSDP: From working on California's Prop 19 cannabis campaign to serving on SSDP's board and eventually becoming Executive Director. Meta Censorship Campaign: Why Meta's restrictions on drug education and harm reduction content harm communities, and how SSDP is organizing public pressure to protect freedom of information online. Forced Institutionalization & Executive Orders: Kat critiques recent federal moves to expand forced treatment, cuts to naloxone training programs, and the misguided use of tariffs as “solutions” to the overdose crisis. The Fight Against DEA Scheduling of DOI & DOC: Why these research chemicals are vital to neuroscience and medicine, how SSDP challenged the DEA in court, and what's at stake for future research. Illogical Drug Policy & Careerism: How prohibition persists due to political incentives, propaganda, and entrenched bureaucratic interests. Building a Better Future: Realigning incentive structures, embracing harm reduction, and supporting community-based solutions to drug use. Key Takeaways The war on drugs is deeply racist, anti-science, and erodes civil liberties. Meta's censorship of harm reduction information actively endangers lives. Forced treatment doesn't work—addressing social conditions and providing safe housing does. DOI and DOC, rarely if ever used recreationally, are critical to medical research, and scheduling them would halt decades of progress. Real reform means both ending prohibition and creating environments where people feel supported, connected, and empowered. Links & Resources Students for Sensible Drug Policy (SSDP): ssdp.org Kat Murti on Twitter/X: @KatMurti Kat Murti on Instagram: @KittyRevolution SSDP Petition against Meta Censorship: ssdp.org

-Spindler, the Notre Dame transfer, made waves this week when he said this Nebraska offensive line has the potential to win the Joe Moore Award for the nation's best o-line-Lots of fans rolled their eyes at the comment, but he's from a school that had great o-line play for 2 straight years…why would he not portray what he actually thinks is possible from what he's seen?Show sponsored by MIDWEST BANKOur Sponsors:* Check out Hims: https://hims.com/EARLYBREAKAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

The Radio personality and former college & NFL lineman reacts to the preseason coaches poll, Can Utah's OL be the best in the nation (?), The pressure on transfer quarterbacks like Devon Dampier + more

Spindler, the Notre Dame transfer, made waves this week when he said this Nebraska offensive line has the potential to win the Joe Moore Award for the nation's best o-line Lots of fans rolled their eyes at the comment, but he's from a school that had great o-line play for 2 straight years…why would he not portray what he actually thinks is possible from what he's seen? Show Sponsored by SANDHILLS GLOBALOur Sponsors:* Check out Hims: https://hims.com/EARLYBREAKAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, Joe Moore is joined by Mareesa Stertz and Tania Abdul, the visionaries behind Sphinx Gate, one of Burning Man 2025's most ambitious and mythic art installations. Inspired by The NeverEnding Story, Sphinx Gate features two towering 34-foot sphinxes and a fully immersive, transformative art experience designed to help participants gain a deeper understanding of themselves. The trio explores how art and play can catalyze personal and collective transformation—without the need for psychedelics—by helping people reframe inner challenges as quests for growth. They discuss the project's mythic inspiration, how it has evolved into a “transmersive” self-discovery journey, and how community co-creation has made this dream real. With rituals, interactive stations, laser-eyed sphinxes, and an oracle offering personalized missions, Sphinx Gate blends storytelling, inner work, and spectacle. They also touch on the deeper intention: shifting culture by normalizing integration, peer support, and emotional exploration—through joy. From honoring Indigenous land stewards to designing future traveling versions and permanent “Museums of Self-Exploration,” this project is just the beginning. Topics Covered: What Sphinx Gate is and how it works The archetypal and cultural roots of sphinxes How The NeverEnding Story inspired the vision Designing integration spaces without psychedelics Co-creation, community magic, and scaling big dreams The emotional and mystical potential of participatory art Fantasia Fridays, Black Rock Philharmonic, and more playa programming Vision for life beyond Burning Man Support Sphinx Gate: Help bring this mythic experience to life and fund its future by donating at TheSphinxGate.com Follow: IG: @thesphinxgate www.thesphinxgate.com

In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with Chad Charles — educator, mentor, and practitioner specializing in 5-MeO-DMT therapy. Chad shares his decade-long journey working with 5-MeO-DMT, emphasizing the importance of: Practitioner training and mentorship Personalized, therapeutic alliances The nuanced understanding of dissociative states Ethics in standardized clinical dosing A trauma-informed approach to psychedelic care He also introduces his upcoming research project, analyzing 500+ one-on-one sessions to illuminate best practices and ethical frameworks in the 5-MeO-DMT space. This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about harm reduction, responsible facilitation, and the future of psychedelic therapy.

First Presbyterian Church of San Antonio - Rev. Dr. Joe Moore 7-27-25 by First Presbyterian Church San Antonio

In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with Alan Davis, Associate Professor at Ohio State University, to explore the evolving landscape of Ibogaine research and its therapeutic potential. Alan offers a deep dive into the Iboga Patient Survey, a groundbreaking initiative collecting real-world data on the safety and efficacy of Ibogaine—particularly for those struggling with substance use disorders and mental health challenges. The conversation sheds light on the need for rigorous, community-informed research that could pave the way toward FDA approval and increased access for patients, including veterans dealing with trauma. They also discuss the complexities of clinical trials, the tension between state and federal regulations, and the growing influence of corporate interests in psychedelic research. Alan emphasizes the importance of ethical transparency, community collaboration, and maintaining scientific integrity as the field grows. If you're curious about the intersection of psychedelic medicine, clinical research, and patient safety, this is a must-listen episode. Topics Covered 00:00 – Introduction and Guest Welcome 00:53 – Reflecting on COVID-19's Psychological Impact 01:29 – Introducing the Iboga Patient Survey 01:46 – History and Goals of Ibogaine Research 02:41 – Challenges in Conducting Clinical Trials 03:14 – Importance of Real-World Safety Data 06:55 – Personal Interest in Ibogaine 08:56 – Veterans and Trauma: A Personal Connection 10:53 – Reintegration and Emotional Processing 15:29 – Survey Participation and Accessibility 18:25 – Building Partnerships and Overcoming Challenges 21:06 – Ensuring Safety and Transparency 31:49 – Community and Academic Collaboration 33:06 – Survey Design and Future Research Directions 36:50 – Momentum in Psychedelic Research 37:48 – State vs. Federal Regulation 39:23 – Challenges in Psychedelic Treatment 43:01 – Corporate Interests and Scientific Objectivity 47:20 – Ketamine and Collaborative Research 51:56 – Ibogaine Patient Survey 57:55 – Psychedelics and Pain Research 01:07:22 – Conclusion and Future Directions

In this engaging episode of the Psychedelics Today podcast, host Joe Moore sits down with Karina Bashir, an attorney working at the intersection of law, business ethics, and psychedelics. Karina, of counsel with Antithesis Law and an active member of the psychedelic community, shares her unique journey from human rights advocacy into the evolving field of psychedelic law. The conversation explores her presentation at Harvard on psychedelics and monotheistic religions, and her efforts to bridge the gap between Islamic communities and psychedelic-assisted healing. She discusses the legal frameworks she navigates to support clients in the psychedelic ecosystem, the spiritual depth of Sufism, and the expansive tradition of Islamic philosophy and mysticism. If you're intrigued by the intersections of religion, law, and psychedelic healing, this episode offers deep insights and hopeful perspectives.

Send us a textRegular listeners may remember that I always say that I don't like fantasy and also how excited that I get when I am able to talk to an author. So I'm delighted today to welcome Joe Moore to Bedside Reading to talk about his young adult novel, which is called Blue Suns and Skyshine.It's quite a difficult book to categorise. And I think we've decided that it's magic realism, though Joe's decided that he'd quite like to invent a completely new genre, which is called magical realism thriller and maybe it's that as well!! This story is a quest. It's a coming of age story. A adolescent boy is left a series of letters by his grandfather, which lead him on a magical mystery tour around the British Isles, ostensibly to scatter his granddad's ashes in a place that is special to his granddad and unknown to young David. There is a wonderful cast of characters that we meet along the way. It's a really, really interesting intriguing entertaining novel which in spite of not being my usual sort of book to read I have thoroughly enjoyed and I've really enjoyed talking to Joe about it today

This is the third special episode I recorded in collaboration with Joe Moore from Psychedelics Today at the largest conference in the field "Psychedelic Science 2025" in Denver last week. It very early in the morning, at 8am, and it was fabulous. Our guests in this episode are the hilarious comedian Dennis Walker, the energetic Co-founder (with Myriam Barthes) and CEO of Journey Clinical Jonathan Sabbagh, Philip Drechsel, my Co-Founder of The New Health Institute, and Tom Feegel, Co-Founder of the ibogaine clinic Beond (with Talia Eisenberg) Joe and I talk about the language of healing and how we communicate this to others, when we need to change all together. As Philip shared his healing story with ibogaine, it became clear what a healing opportunity we could experience here. FOLLOW ON IG:The@mycopreneurofficial @jonathansabbagh @beyond.us @thenewhealthinstitute @thenewhealthclub @psychedelicstoday Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

First Presbyterian Church of San Antonio - Rev. Dr. Joe Moore 7-20-25 Traditional Service.mp3 by First Presbyterian Church San Antonio

In this deeply important episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore is joined by Kristen Nash, MPH, and returning guest Erica Siegel, LCSW, for a nuanced conversation about risk reduction, harm prevention, and ethical education in the psychedelic space. Kristen shares the powerful and heartbreaking story of losing her 21-year-old son after a tragic psychedelic-related incident. Motivated by this loss and her background in public health, she founded the Coalition for Psychedelic Safety and Education and launched the Before You Trip campaign—an educational initiative piloting in Colorado aimed at helping Gen Z users assess their readiness and safety before engaging with psychedelics. Erica contributes her extensive experience from Nest Harm Reduction and Shine Collective, emphasizing the need for peer-based support, non-abstinence frameworks, and trauma-informed approaches. She highlights common pitfalls such as untrained facilitators, predatory behavior, and the pervasive issue of gaslighting in psychedelic communities. Together, they explore the gaps in current education efforts, the dangers of glorifying substances without context, and the moral injuries that can occur when people are harmed or dismissed by the very communities meant to support them. The conversation calls for broader public funding, lived-experience-informed leadership, and transparency around psychological and relational risks—not just physiological harm. The episode also touches on poly-substance use, the limitations of existing drug harm scales, and the importance of setting, support, and intention. With a shared commitment to saving lives and empowering users, Kristen and Erica offer actionable insights and heartfelt reflections on making this space safer for everyone. Listeners are encouraged to follow and support both Before You Trip and Shine Collective to help expand harm reduction education and survivor advocacy.

In this episode, Joe Moore speaks with award-winning science journalist Erica Rex about her personal experience participating in psychedelic research, her upcoming book Seeing What Is There: My Search for Sanity in the Psychedelic Era, and the complex story behind the recently published Religious Leader Psilocybin Study from Johns Hopkins and NYU. They examine: Erica's firsthand experience as a participant in the original 2012 study that helped launch Roland Griffiths' prominence in psychedelic science. The goals and outcomes of the Religious Leader Study, which sought to explore how psilocybin might impact religious leaders' effectiveness and connection to their communities. The methodological and ethical problems that plagued the study. The influence of perennialist frameworks and the limitations of measures like the Mystical Experience Questionnaire (MEQ). Broader concerns about the infiltration of religious ideology and lack of rigor in psychedelic science. A deep critique of the institutional systems that allowed flawed research processes to go unchecked — and how these patterns risk repeating the mistakes of the 1960s psychedelic wave. Joe and Erica also dive into how modern psychedelic science struggles to reconcile subjective experience, spirituality, and the reductionist standards of academic research. They discuss Matt Johnson's paper critiquing “psychedelic consciousness” framing and explore whether our current scientific tools are capable of capturing the depth of psychedelic experience. Erica's forthcoming book, slated for release in January 2026, blends memoir, neuroscience, and social critique. It offers a critical insider's view of the psychedelic renaissance—its promise, pitfalls, and the ways it mirrors broader systemic issues in science and culture.

In this expansive episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with author and cultural theorist Daniel Pinchbeck to explore the evolving—and increasingly contested—role of psychedelics in society. From the hopeful spirit of transformation that animated earlier psychedelic movements to the sobering reality of biotech, branding, and political entanglement, Daniel offers a candid diagnosis of where we are—and where we might be headed. Reflecting on Psychedelic Science 2025, Daniel discusses the event's stark shift toward commercialization and industry influence. He contrasts this with his earlier work on Evolver, a movement that sought to integrate psychedelics with permaculture, alternative economics, and cultural awakening. Together, Joe and Daniel examine how the field's idealistic origins have been increasingly subjected to capitalist co-option. They also dive into deeper philosophical terrain—discussing monistic idealism, Rudolf Steiner, and the suppression of mystical and paranormal dimensions in the push to medicalize and sanitize psychedelics for mainstream acceptance. Daniel warns of the dangers of ignoring the shadow, including psychic fragmentation and what he calls "entity attachment" from ungrounded use. The conversation ranges from tech billionaires on ketamine to the geopolitical threat of authoritarianism, the weaponization of AI, and the quiet complicity of many in the psychedelic space who avoid political engagement. Daniel shares his current projects, including his Substack newsletter and a new seminar, Breaking the AI Barrier. This is a timely, unflinching exploration of psychedelics as both medicine and mirror—revealing the best and worst of our collective intentions. Can we reclaim the visionary potential of these tools from the grip of capital and control?

This is a special episode I recorded in collaboration with Joe Moore from Psychedelics Today at the largest conference in the field "Psychedelic Science 2025" in Denver last week. It very early in the morning, at 8am, and it was fabulous. Our guests: Daniel Goldberg Co-Founder and Partner at Palo Santo & Bridge Investments & Zac Kamenetz, Founder of Shefa: Jewish Psychedelic Support, Joe and me were talking about the interactions of psychedelic community, the new role of Venture Capital in 2025 and what psychedelic systems are built in the current climate to support individuals and the bigger picture. Check out this episode, it's fun and very insightful.Check out:https://www.shefaflow.org/https://palosanto.vc/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

First Presbyterian Church of San Antonio - Rev. Dr. Joe Moore 7/6/25 by First Presbyterian Church San Antonio

In this wide-ranging conversation, journalist Mattha Busby joins Joe Moore to reflect on the shifting tone of the psychedelic movement in the wake of Psychedelic Science 2025. Based in Vancouver, Mattha has written for The Guardian, VICE, Esquire, TIME, and Wired, bringing a uniquely embedded yet critical lens to the space. They discuss the post-conference mood and the sense that the industry is sobering up—less hype, more introspection. Mattha reflects on the growing division between underground practitioners, activists, and biotech startups, and the importance of vision, ethics, and scrutiny in the midst of this cultural moment. Other topics include: Ketamine overuse and dependence, especially in social and parenting contexts The future of psychedelic nightlife, harm reduction, and mocktail bars Gender and sexual fluidity as uncovered through psychedelics Questions of IP, underground wisdom, and psychedelic ownership Psychedelics as tools for peacebuilding, especially in conflict zones The shadow side of spiritual experiences and how to spot bad actors The value of pleasure, intimacy, and human connection in the psychedelic journey Joe and Mattha also reflect on the resurgence of psychedelic use in Texas, the legacy of the Stark Club, and how Christian libertarianism and military trauma might influence unexpected policy changes. This conversation is bold, honest, funny, and thoughtful—exactly the kind of cultural critique the movement needs right now. Find Mattha on Instagram at @matthamundo and on LinkedIn at Mattha Busby. His new pocketbook on drug policy is available now.

Dylan Beynon: At-Home Ketamine Therapy, Big Pharma Pushback, and the Future of Psychedelic Accessibility In this episode, Joe Moore welcomes Dylan Beynon, CEO and Founder of Mindbloom, one of the largest providers of legal, at-home ketamine therapy in the U.S. Dylan shares the deeply personal story that led him to psychedelic medicine—including the tragic loss of his mother and sister to addiction and mental illness—and how these experiences continue to fuel his mission to make psychedelic therapy affordable and accessible for all. Mindbloom has now facilitated over 654,000 sessions across 38 states, offering both sublingual and subcutaneous (injectable) ketamine in a comprehensive treatment program that includes preparation, integration, music, journaling, and even generative AI art. The conversation dives into common criticisms of at-home ketamine, the benefits of guided treatment over IV infusions, and the disturbing influence of Big Pharma in media narratives—especially the growing PR push behind SPRAVATO. Dylan also breaks down what makes Mindbloom's outcomes stand out, why they recently added injectable ketamine, and how their safety data challenges popular misconceptions. Joe and Dylan also touch on the potential future of at-home MDMA therapy, regulatory hurdles, and what it will take to scale these powerful treatments to millions of people in need. If you're in the psychedelic field, considering ketamine therapy, or curious about the ethics and economics of psychedelic medicine, this episode offers a powerful look behind the curtain. Resources: Mindbloom.com Vital Psychedelic Training

This is a special episode I recorded in collaboration with Joe Moore from Psychedelics Today at the largest conference in the field "Psychedelic Science 2025" in Denver last week. It very early in the morning, at 8am, and it was fabulous. Our guests: Tommaso Barba, Neuroscientist from Imperial College London and Dee Dee Goldpaugh, therapist, author and clinical consultant, me and Joe were talking about Sex, Intimacy and Psychedelics! Check out this episode, it's fun and very insightful.IG: @Tommaso.barba @deedeegoldpaugh @psychedelicstoday Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Joe Moore and Anne Philippi are hosts of the PS25 Morning Show! This one features Dee Dee Goldpaugh, LCSW and Tommaso Barba, PhDC! We talk about all things Sex and Psychedelics!

First Presbyterian Church of San Antonio - Rev. Dr. Joe Moore 6/15/25 by First Presbyterian Church San Antonio

Hall of Fame offensive lineman Jimbo Covert joined the show. Jimbo is taking part in the Joe Moore Offensive Line Camp. Jimbo. Jimbo thinks there's a big difference between playing left tackle and right tackle. Jimbo thinks his Pitt team could have won a national championship.

Hour 2 with Bob Pompeani and Joe Starkey: Michael McKenry thinks the ABS challenge system needs to be in baseball to challenge balls and strikes. Joe and Dan Fisher had a weird back and forth over whether Pitt will play Penn State this year. Hall of Fame offensive lineman Jimbo Covert joined the show. Jimbo gives Joe golf advice. Jimbo is taking part in the Joe Moore Offensive Line Camp and he could figure out what made players tick.

Russ is in Pittsburgh this week for the Joe Moore Offensive Line Camp. Russ is going to be inducted into the WPIAL Hall of Fame this weekend after his time at Southmoreland. Russ shares what it was like playing on the Washington Redskins offensive line and winning three Super Bowls in Washington. Russ coached with Arthur Smith at Tennessee and Smith likes to run the ball.

Hour 2 with Bob Pompeani and Joe Starkey: Pro Football Hall of Famer Russ Grimm joined the show. Russ is in Pittsburgh this week for the Joe Moore Offensive Line Camp. Russ is going to be inducted into the WPIAL Hall of Fame this weekend after his time at Southmoreland. Bob Walk would be ok with all pitches being called by robots. He wants to see the ABS system implemented

In this episode, Joe Moore sits down with Paul Gillis-Smith from The Center for the Study of World Religions to discuss a range of fascinating topics. They begin by discussing the Harvard Divinity School and the CSWR's mission and history. The conversation delves into the work and legacy of Lisa Bieberman, a pivotal figure in the 1960s psychedelic harm reduction movement. It explores her contributions to the field through her Psychedelic Information Center. They also touch on the Quaker traditions and their intersection with LSD use, showing how spirituality and psychedelics can coalesce. Paul also talks about upcoming psychedelic and chaplaincy workshops, emphasizing the importance of spiritual care in psychedelic experiences. This episode is rich with historical insights and contemporary applications, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in psychedelics and spirituality. Paul Gillis-Smith @ CSWR Center for the Study of World Religions Psychometric brahman, psychedelic science: Walter Stace, transnational Vedanta, and the Mystical Experience Questionnaire 00:00 Introduction and Initial Setup 00:34 Meeting at Penn's Psychedelic Conference 01:14 Postdoctoral Presentations and Indigenous Plant Medicine 03:27 Understanding CSWR and Its Evolution 07:21 Harvard's Study of Psychedelics in Society and Culture 09:11 Personal Academic Journey and Interest in Psychedelics 11:58 Role at CSWR and Ongoing Projects 18:59 Lisa Bieberman: A Pioneer in Psychedelic Education 40:53 Quaker Theology of LSD 41:58 Meeting Structure and Frequency 42:46 Profound Simple Truths 45:41 Transition to Quakerism 48:45 The New Jerusalem Prophecy 53:02 Quakerism and Its Influence 01:11:25 Clinical Chaplaincy and Psychedelics 01:18:39 Conclusion and Future Projects

In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore speaks with Dr. Simon Ruffell, a London-based psychiatrist, researcher, and curandero-in-training in the López Mahua lineage of the Shipibo tradition. Dr. Ruffell shares how his early fascination with psychiatry eventually led to a deep disillusionment with the limitations of conventional treatments—and a surprising pivot toward the Amazon. Now working at the intersection of Indigenous healing and clinical research, Ruffell describes his journey from medical school to shamanic apprenticeship. He offers insight into the Shipibo understanding of illness across three planes—spiritual, psychological, and physical—and how these ideas challenge Western frameworks. The conversation explores critical questions about the psychedelic renaissance: Are current clinical models missing the energetic and spiritual dimensions of healing? What are the risks of poorly held psychedelic sessions, and how can Indigenous knowledge guide safer practices? Dr. Ruffell advocates for deep training, cross-cultural respect, and collaborative models—such as pairing Indigenous healers with psychiatrists in clinical settings. He also discusses his work with Onaya Science and Onaya.io, organizations that partner with Indigenous communities to study the effects of ayahuasca, particularly in treating PTSD among military veterans. Early findings from their five-year study show that 84% of participants no longer meet PTSD criteria six months after retreat—a promising signal for integrative approaches. This episode offers a rare look at how science and spirituality can coexist. Whether you're a clinician, researcher, or someone seeking deeper healing, Dr. Ruffell's story invites us to question our assumptions and expand our understanding of what true medicine can be.

In this special panel, Joe Moore of Psychedelics Today is joined by Sandor Iron Rope, Lakota spiritual leader and peyote practitioner, and Zach Leary, writer and advocate for psychedelic culture. Together, they explore the critical importance of respecting the cultural, spiritual, and ecological roots of plant medicines. Sandor shares powerful reflections on the Lakota worldview, the trauma of colonization, and the deep spiritual kinship indigenous peoples hold with medicinal plants. Zach reflects on the American counterculture's relationship with psychedelics, highlighting the need to preserve mysticism and community over commercialization. The panel dives into challenges around synthetic versus natural medicines, the risks of spiritual harm when practices are rushed or disconnected from tradition, and the urgent need for indigenous voices at the table as psychedelic policy evolves. Throughout, a theme emerges: slow down, honor kinship, and build right relationship with nature, culture, and spirit. This conversation offers a rare and necessary bridge between indigenous wisdom and the psychedelic resurgence, calling for respect, collaboration, and a return to deep roots to guide future generations. Learn more at ipci.life and psychedelicstoday.com.

In this episode Kyle Buller and Joe Moore speak to Zach Leary about his new book "Your Extraordinary Mind: Psychedelics in the 21st Century and How to Use Them". Kyle and Joe join Zach in person for this recording. Zach has lots of hard earned wisdom and gracefully shares it with us and with his readers. We discuss MAPS PS25, Psychedelic Churches, psychedelic overuse and much more. Join us to learn more.

In this episode, Joe Moore welcomes LP Giobbi, an internationally famous DJ, electronic music producer, and jazz pianist. LP shares the story behind Dead House, her project blending Grateful Dead samples with house music. What started as a tribute to her parents during pandemic live streams has become a celebrated musical movement. Joe and LP explore the deeper connection between music and psychedelics. They talk about Bicycle Day, the story of Albert Hofmann's famous LSD bike ride, and how psychedelics can support creativity and personal growth. LP opens up about her own experiences with psychedelics, touring burnout, and how she's learning to reconnect with her body through music and intention. The conversation also highlights LP's work with Fem House, an educational platform that empowers women and gender-expansive individuals in music production. She explains how representation, access, and support are key to shifting the music industry. This is a warm, inspiring, candid episode about breaking barriers, finding your voice, and leading purposefully. If you're in Denver, catch Dead House live at Meow Wolf on Bicycle Day!

Joe Moore sits down with UK-based artist Harry Pack, whose vibrant, surreal, and often psychedelic art has captured the attention of dreamers, psychonauts, and seekers worldwide. Known for channeling the aesthetic of altered states rather than simply replicating them, Harry discusses his journey from childhood doodles to being a full-time artist working digitally in Procreate. He shares stories of deep inspiration from figures like Ott—whose album Hiraeth he recently illustrated—and how art has helped him integrate mystical experiences, recovery, and even potential alien contact. The conversation explores the therapeutic potential of art, the role of storytelling in visionary creativity, and the emergence of recurring themes in Harry's work—most notably, the enigmatic “Purple UFO.” We also get into the importance of community, nature, and play in feeding the creative spirit, and Harry's aspirations to build spaces for collective art-making and integration. Follow Harry on Instagram @harrypackart and @thepurpleufo, and explore his work at harrypackart.com.

In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore sits down with South African ethnobotanist and healer Jean-François Sobiecki to explore the rich and largely underrecognized world of African psychoactive plants. With over two decades of fieldwork and research, Jean-François sheds light on the traditional use of these plants in healing, divination, and spiritual practices across Southern Africa. Topics covered include: Jean-François's early inspirations and the ancestral roots of his herbal knowledge His discovery and documentation of 306 African psychoactive plant species The ritual use of Ubuwalu (dream-enhancing emetic infusions) and their role in personal transformation How vomiting, dietary restrictions, and sensory isolation are used as part of initiation processes Cross-cultural parallels between Southern African and Amazonian plant healing traditions The underexplored use of psychoactive plants to treat mental health conditions like schizophrenia and hysteria Ethical fieldwork, indigenous knowledge protection, and the dangers of overharvesting sacred plants Visions for healing and conservation gardens in Africa and the role these plants could play in global mental health Jean-François shares moving stories of his 15-year mentorship with a Northern Sotho diviner and healer, Letti Ponnya, and how she introduced him to African “plant teacher” medicines. His message is clear: Africa has a deep, sophisticated, and scientifically underappreciated tradition of psychoactive plant use that deserves recognition, respect, and further study.

In this inspiring and far-reaching conversation, Joe Moore is joined by Vince Kadlubek, the founder and Chief Visionary Officer of Meow Wolf, the groundbreaking arts and entertainment company known for its massive, immersive art experiences. Together, they dive deep into Meow Wolf's humble DIY origins, its evolution into a multi-city creative juggernaut, and how it intertwines with psychedelic culture and expanded states of consciousness. Vince shares the story of Meow Wolf's formation in Santa Fe, the evolution from a group of passionate friends into a thousand-person company, and the power of belief, creativity, and visionary leadership. He reflects on raising funding from George R. R. Martin and major investors, navigating massive growth, and the challenge of keeping the creative spark alive in the face of institutionalization. They also discuss the upcoming Bicycle Day Portal Takeover at Meow Wolf Denver on April 19, which will feature performances, talks, and immersive experiences throughout the exhibition—with appearances from Reggie Watts, Duncan Trussell, Zach Leary, and more. From the imaginative to the esoteric, Vince and Joe explore the intersection of psychedelics and art, the nature of reality and the imaginal realm, and how to build beauty and wonder into the world around us.

In this powerful episode of Psychedelics Today, we sit down with the team behind Natural Medicine Alaska to discuss their groundbreaking efforts to bring psychedelic reform to the state. With some of the highest rates of depression, suicide, and substance use disorders in the nation, Alaska stands at a pivotal moment in the movement for mental health transformation. Joe Moore speaks with Gina, President of Natural Medicine Alaska; David Aloff, an Alaska Native advocate; and Noria Clark, Veterans Coordinator to explore the origins of their movement, the importance of traditional healing protections, and their 2026 ballot initiative to decriminalize plant medicines and establish a regulated therapeutic model. The discussion dives into: The personal journeys that led each guest to this work How Alaska's libertarian spirit aligns with psychedelic reform The push to make Alaska the first state to include Ibogaine clinics in legislation The urgent need for veteran and first responder access to psychedelic therapy Fundraising and grassroots efforts to get the initiative on the ballot The role of Alaska's natural landscape in healing and psychedelic integration With national psychedelic policy at a crossroads, Alaska has the opportunity to become the North Star of this movement. Listen in to learn how you can support this critical campaign! Support Natural Medicine Alaska:

Our Semiconductors and Software analysts Joe Moore and Keith Weiss dive into the biggest market debate around AI and why it's likely to shape conversations at Morgan Stanley's Technology, Media and Telecom (TMT) Conference in San Francisco. ----- Transcript -----Joe Moore: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Joe Moore, Morgan Stanley's Head of U.S. Semiconductors.Keith Weiss: And I'm Keith Weiss, Head of U.S. Software.Joe Moore: Today on the show, one of the biggest market debates in the tech sector has been around AI and the Return On Investment, or ROI. In fact, we think this will be the number one topic of conversation at Morgan Stanley's annual Technology, Media and Telecom (TMT) conference in San Francisco.And that's precisely where we're bringing you this episode from.It's Monday, March 3rd, 7am in San Francisco.So, let's get right into it. ChatGPT was released November 2022. Since then, the biggest tech players have gained more than $9 trillion in combined market capitalization. They're up more than double the amount of the S&P 500 index. And there's a lot of investor expectation for a new technology cycle centered around AI. And that's what's driving a lot of this momentum.You know, that said, there's also a significant investor concern around this topic of ROI, especially given the unprecedented level of investment that we've seen and sparse data points still on the returns.So where are we now? Is 2025 going to be a year when the ROI and GenAI finally turns positive?Keith Weiss: If we take a step back and think about the staging of how innovation cycles tend to play out, I think it's a helpful context.And it starts with research. I would say the period up until When ChatGPT was released – up until that November 2022 – was a period of where the fundamental research was being done on the transformer models; utilizing, machine learning. And what fundamental research is, is trying to figure out if these fundamental capabilities are realistic. If we can do this in software, if you will.And with the release of ChatGPT, it was a very strong, uh, stamp of approval of ‘Yes, like these transformer models can work.'Then you start stage two. And I think that's basically November 22 through where are today of, where you have two tracks going on. One is development. So these large language models, they can do natural language processing well.They can contextually understand unstructured and semi structured data. They can generate content. They could create text; they could create images and videos.So, there's these fundamental capabilities. But you have to develop a product to get work done. How are we going to utilize those capabilities? So, we've been working on development of product over the past two years. And at the same time, we've been scaling out the infrastructure for that product development.And now, heading into 2025, I think we're ready to go into the next stage of the innovation cycle, which will be market uptake.And that's when revenue starts to flow to the software companies that are trying to automate business processes. We definitely think that monetization starts to ramp in 2025, which should prove out a better ROI or start to prove out the ROI of all this investment that we've been making.Joe Moore: Morgan Stanley Research projects that GenAI can potentially drive a $1.1 trillion dollar revenue opportunity in 2028, up from $45 billion in 2024. Can you break this down for our listeners?Keith Weiss: We recently put out a report where we tried to size kind of what the revenue generation capability is from GenerativeAI, because that's an important part of this ROI equation. You have the return on the top of where you could actually monetize this. On the bottom, obviously, investment. And we took a look at all the investment needed to serve this type of functionality.The [$]1.1 trillion, if you will, it breaks down into two big components. Um, One side of the equation is in my backyard, and that's the enterprise software side of the equation. It's about a third of that number. And what we see occurring is the automation of more and more of the work being done by information workers; for people in overall.And what we see is about 25 percent, of overall labor being impacted today. And we see that growing to over 45 percent over the next three years.So, what that's going to look like from a software perspective is a[n] opportunity ramping up to about, just about $400 billion of software opportunity by 2028. At that point, GenerativeAI will represent about 22 percent of overall software spending. At that point, the overall software market we expect to be about a $1.8 trillion market.The other side of the equation, the bigger side of the equation, is actually the consumer platforms. And that kind of makes sense if you think about the broader economy, it's basically one-third B2B, two-thirds B2C. The automation is relatively equivalent on both sides of the equation.Joe Moore: So, let's drill further into your outlook for software. What are the biggest catalysts you expect to see this year, and then over the coming three years?Keith Weiss: The key catalyst for this year is proving out the efficacy of these solutions, right?Proving out that they're going to drive productivity gains and yield real hard dollar ROI for the end customer. And I think where we'll see that is from labor savings.Once that occurs, and I think it's going to be over the next 12 to 18 months, then we go into the period of mainstream adoption. You need to start utilizing these technologies to drive the efficiencies within your businesses to be able to keep up with your competitors. So, that's the main thing that we're looking for in the near term.Over the next three years, what you're looking for is the breakthrough technologies. Where can we find opportunities not just to create efficiencies within existing processes, but to completely rewrite the business process.That's where you see new big companies emerge within the software opportunity – is the people that really fundamentally change the equation around some of these processes.So, Joe, turning it over to you, hardware remains a bottleneck for AI innovation. Why is that the case? And what are the biggest hurdles in the semiconductor space right now?Joe Moore: Well, this has proven to be an extremely computationally intensive application, and I think it started with training – where you started seeing tens of thousands of GPUs or XPUS clustered together to train these big models, these Large Language Models. And you started hearing comments two years ago around the development of ChatGPT that, you know, the scaling laws are tricky.You might need five times as much hardware to make a model that's 10 percent smarter. But the challenge of making a model that's 10 percent smarter, the table stakes of that are very significant. And so, you see, you know, those investments continuing to scale up. And that's been a big debate for the market.But we've heard from most of the big spenders in the market that we are continuing to scale up training. And then after that happened, we started seeing inference suddenly as a big user of advanced processors, GPUs, in a way that they hadn't before. And that was sort of simple conversational types of AI.Now as you start migrating into more of a reasoning AI, a multi pass approach, you're looking at a really dramatic scaling in the amount of hardware, that's required from both GPUs and XPUs.And at the same time the hardware companies are focused a lot on how do we deliver that – so that it doesn't become prohibitively expensive; which it is very expensive. But there's a lot of improvement. And that's where you're sort of seeing this tug of war in the stocks; that when you see something that's deflationary, uh, it becomes a big negative. But the reality is the hardware is designed to be deflationary because the workloads themselves are inflationary.And so I think there's a lot of growth still ahead of us. A lot of investment, and a lot of rich debate in the market about this.Keith Weiss: Let's pull on that thread a little bit. You talked initially about the scaling of the GPU clusters to support training. Over the past year, we've gotten a little bit more pushback on the ideas or the efficacy of those scaling laws.They've come more under question. And at the same time, we've seen the availability of some lower cost, but still very high-performance models. Is this going to reshape the investments from the large semiconductor players in terms of how they're looking to address the market?Joe Moore: I think we have to assess that over time. Right now, there are very clear comments from everybody who's in charge of scaling large models that they intend to continue to scale.I think there is a benefit to doing so from the standpoint of creating a richer model, but is the ROI there? You know, and that's where I think, you know, your numbers do a very good job of justifying our model for our core companies – where we can say, okay, this is not a bubble. This is investment that's driven by these areas of economic benefit that our software and internet teams are seeing.And I think there is a bit of an arms race at the high end of the market where people just want to have the biggest cluster. And that's, we think that's about 30 percent of the revenue right now in hardware – is supporting those really big models. But we're also seeing, to your point, a very rich hardware configuration on the inference side post training model customization. Nvidia said on their on their earnings call recently that they see several orders of magnitude more compute required for those applications than for that pre-training. So, I think over time that's where the growth is going to come from.But you know, right now we're seeing growth really from all aspects of the market.Keith Weiss: Got it. So, a lot of really big opportunities out there utilizing these GPUs and ASICs, but also a lot of unknowns and potential risks. So, what are the key catalysts that you're looking for in the semiconductor space over the course of this year and maybe over the next three years?Joe Moore: Well, 2025 is, is a year that is really mostly about supply.You know, we're ramping up, new hardware But also, several companies doing custom silicon. We have to ramp all that hardware up and it's very complicated.It uses every kind of trick and technique that semiconductors use to do advanced packaging and things like that. And so, it's a very challenging supply chain and it has been for two years. And fortunately, it's happened in a time when there's plenty of semiconductor capacity out there.But I think, you know, we're ramping very quickly. And I think what you're seeing is the things that matter this year are gonna be more about how quickly we can get that supply, what are the gross margins on hardware, things like that.I think beyond that, we have to really get a sense of, you know, these ROI questions are really important beyond 2025. Because again, this is not a bubble. But hardware is cyclical and there; it doesn't slow gracefully. So, there will be periods where investment may fall off and it'll be a difficult time to own the stocks. And that's, you know, we do think that over time, the value sort of transitions from hardware to software.But we model for 2026 to be a year where it starts to slow down a little bit. We start to see some consolidation in these investments.Now, 12 months ago, I thought that about 2025. So, the timeframe keeps getting pushed out. It remains very robust. But I think at some point it will plateau a little bit and we'll start to see some fragmentation; and we'll start to see markets like, you know, reasoning models, inference models becoming more and more critical. But that's where when I hear you and Brian Nowak talking about sort of the early stage that we are of actually implementing this stuff, that inference has a long way to go in terms of growth.So, we're optimistic around the whole AI space for semiconductors. Obviously, the market is as well. So, there's expectations, challenges there. But there's still a lot of growth ahead of us.So Keith, looking towards the future, as AI expands the functionality of software, how will that transform the business models of your companies?Keith Weiss: We're also fundamentally optimistic about software and what GenerativeAI means for the overall software industry.If we look at software companies today, particularly application companies, a lot of what you're trying to do is make information workers more productive. So, it made a lot of sense to price based upon the number of people who are using your software. Or you've got a lot of seat-based models.Now we're talking about completely automating some of those processes, taking people out of the loop altogether. You have to price differently. You have to price based upon the number of transactions you're running, or some type of consumptive element of the amount of work that you're getting done. I think the other thing that we're going to see is the market opportunity expanding well beyond information workers.So, the way that we count the value, the way that we accrue the value might change a little bit. But the underlying value proposition remains the same. It's about automating, creating productivity in those business processes, and then the software companies pricing for their fair share of that productivity.Joe Moore: Great. Well, let me just say this has been a really useful process for me. The collaboration between our teams is really helpful because as a semiconductor analyst, you can see the data points, you can see the hardware being built. And I know the enthusiasm that people have on a tactical level. But understanding where the returns are going to come from and what milestones we need to watch to see any potential course correction is very valuable.So on that note, it's time for us to get to the exciting panels at the Morgan Stanley TMT conference. Uh, And we'll have more from the conference on the show later this week. Keith, thanks for taking the time to talk.Keith Weiss: Great speaking with you, Joe.Joe Moore: And thanks for listening. If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please leave us a review wherever you listen and share the podcast with a friend or colleague today.