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Real Agile forecasting runs on math, not magic. Brian and Lance dive into Monte Carlo methods, DORA metrics, and how AI is shifting the future of project management. All with a human-first approach that builds better teams, not bigger spreadsheets. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner and Lance Dacy unpack why Agile teams need to rethink how they forecast work—and why math, not magic, is the real secret. From the roots of Taylorism to today's Monte Carlo simulations, they explore how to navigate uncertainty with data-driven tools like DORA metrics, flow metrics, and probability theory, while keeping the heart of Agile leadership focused on trust, transparency, and better decision-making. References and resources mentioned in the show: Lance Dacy Free Chapters of Agile Estimating and Planning by Mike Cohn Join the Agile Mentors Community Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Curious about the future of Agile in 2025? Join Brian and Lance Dacy as they dive into the rise of AI, hyper-personalization, and how teams can balance innovation with customer focus. Plus, discover actionable insights to navigate a rapidly evolving landscape—don’t miss this forward-looking discussion! Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian and Lance set their sights on 2025, exploring how AI is transforming Agile practices and reshaping customer engagement. They discuss the shift from output to outcome metrics, the expansion of Agile beyond IT, and the critical role of leadership agility. With practical takeaways on fostering continuous learning and delivering real value, this episode equips teams and leaders to stay ahead in a fast-changing world. References and resources mentioned in the show: Lance Dacy Accurate Agile Planning Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Happy New Year's Agile Mentors. We are back and a very happy New Year's to everyone who's listening. Welcome back for another episode and another new year of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner, and we have our friend of the show for our annual kind of tradition now. We have Mr. Lance Dacey back with us. Welcome in, Lance. Lance Dacy (00:23) Thank you, Brian. Happy New Year to all of y'all. Happy to be setting this tradition. think it's two times now, so we'll just call it a tradition, but I love it. Thank you for having me. Brian (00:32) Very glad to have you here. The tradition we're referring to is that we like to take the first episode of the new year and just take a pause and kind of look ahead a little bit. What do we see coming up? What do we think this new year is going to be like? Obviously, it's a year of change. Here in the US, we'll have a new president that comes in. I'm not going to get into whether you like that or not, but it's new. It's going to be a change. There's going to be differences that take place. And I know there's a lot of differences and changes going on just in the way businesses operate and how things are run and lots of new technologies, lots of new trends. So we just thought we'd take a pause and kind of scan the horizon and maybe give you our take at least on what we're hearing and what we're seeing. And you can see if you agree with these or not. We'd love to hear from you in our discussion forum on the Agile Mentors Community afterwards if you have other thoughts or opinions on this. let's get into it. Let's start to talk about this. So Lance, I guess I'll start. I'll just turn it over to you and ask you that generalized question. Give me one point or one thing that you've been reading or seeing recently that you think is going to be a really important thing for us to kind of be prepared for or look out for here in 2025. Lance Dacy (01:44) Great question, Brian. There's so many things out there, and I thought we could start by looking back a little bit. if we're okay with that, just let's summarize, you what did we see happen in 2024? You mentioned, you know, 2025 is a year of change, absolutely, but 2024 was definitely a different kind of year as far as my experience is concerned and seeing a lot of industry trends that are just popping up out of nowhere. Now we are fans of agility, which means we embrace quick, efficient changes, but there's things going on in 2024 I never predicted Brian (01:52) Yeah, yeah. Lance Dacy (02:19) fast. And so I think we've got to reshape the way that we're thinking about these things. I think the topic of mind, one of the biggest shifts that I saw in 2024 that I think will continue in 2025 is AI. So that artificial intelligence is a big word that we keep lumping into a lot of things. And I just wanted to take a pause a little bit and say, I know everybody's got a little bit different experience about AI, but in particular, as it relates to product development and agile delivery, which is what this show is basically focused on, I thought we could look at some insights of what happened in 2024 with that. And so I think I call us babies at it right now. And I know that may be a bad term, but I have a lot of experience with AI and machine learning and things like that. But as far as the use of it, I feel like we're all a little bit more of babies on how to use it in the day-to-day work that we're trying to accomplish. And I think that comes with learning something. I embrace that. I don't mean that as a downplay, by the way, but that we're all babies. I'm just saying we're less mature about it. We're experimenting with a lot of things. And I don't think that some of the AI is all good. I I embrace it as a thing that's going to help us later on, but... I thought we could just share our experiences of how we've seen this thing manifest itself. I think tools like AI driven, I'm going to use the bad word JIRA, but in place of that, just use any product backlog management tool that you see. And I've seen a lot of organizations not just talk the game of, we use AI for our backlog management, but I'm talking about backlog prioritization, sprint planning capacity. And I believe what's happening is it frees teams up to do more of the... value driven work that we're going to see a lot more of in 2025. So what I mean by that is when we got automated testing and development, if you remember those days, it freed the developers up or the testers, should say, from doing less of the does this thing work to more of how does it feel using it as a human being, you know, automating that. So I've seen things like JIRA, with AI with JIRA and GitHub co-pilots, you know, reshaping the value creation in the teams and eliminating the need of having to do very low level tasks. So what is your thoughts on that and do you have any experiences of that as well? Brian (04:36) Yeah, for sure. There's a couple of things I've found that just kind of some stats I found from some different places. you know, listeners know I'm kind of like a data geek here. want to know where the data comes from and want to make sure it's a, yeah. Yeah. You want to make sure it's a solid source and it's not some questionable, you know, sketchy kind of, well, I asked 10 of my friends and here's the answer, you Right, right. Exactly. Lance Dacy (04:48) Good hand. I love that. or a FBI. Brian (05:02) But so there's a couple of things that came back. One was, I think Forrester is probably a pretty good source of information. They have some pretty good rigor to their process. And they have a thing that they put out every year. This one's just called the Developer Survey. And this is the one that they put out for 2024 that I'm quoting here. But a couple of stats from that that I found interesting. One was, 49 % of developers are expecting to use or are already using general AI assistance in their coding phase of software development, which, you know, maybe higher than most people might think. But it doesn't surprise me too much. I think that's probably kind of what I'm used to it. Understand saying, you know, an assistant co-pilot, that kind of thing. They're not saying 49 % have been replaced. They're saying 49 % are being assisted. by that and that seems about right. Maybe again, maybe a little higher than some might expect, but that seems like not too big of a shocker. Lance Dacy (06:04) Well, the animation too. So when you talk about assistance versus letting it run it, I saw a gentleman on LinkedIn, which is also a good. I wish we could interact more with our users on this call, because I'd love to hear their perspective. But I heard somebody say, let AI write my code. No, thank you. Code is like poetry. It has to be refined over time. It has humanistic qualities. And I was like, man, that's a really good point. But when I try to show my kids how to create a Ruby on Rails app to do an e-commerce site and I type it into chat GPT or whatever tool you use, I was amazed at how quickly it was able to put together. mean, you got to still know the file structures and things like that. But I don't know that developers are just going to say, I was going to write the whole thing. think they're, I think it's saving us keystrokes. I think we talked about that last time as well, but that's an interesting, interesting take. Brian (06:50) Yeah. Yeah. So I thought, I thought that was interesting. There was another, you know, I'm kind of, I'll move around between these two sources basically, but there's another source that I saw where there was a Harvard Business Review article. posted this on LinkedIn a while back, but it was a kind of the source of it was about a survey that they did to try to determine the impact on the job market. And one of the things they did was now their data was from July, 2021 to July, 2023. So this is a little bit older data, right? The survey was trying to say in analyzing the job postings on freelancer job sites specifically, and they tried to identify ones that might be affected by the advent of chat GPT, because that's the period where chat GPT really started to come onto the scene and started to become prevalent. And what they found was about a 21 % decrease in the weekly number of posts and what they call automation prone. Lance Dacy (07:35) Yeah. Brian (07:47) jobs compared to manually intensive jobs. They said riding jobs were affected the most 30.37 % decrease, followed up by software app and web development 20.62 % decrease and engineering 10.42 % decrease. But the interesting kind of thing is they found it kind of towards the end of that there was some increases and their kind of conclusion was that there was actually an increase in demand of the kinds of work that required human judgment and decision-making. And so that kind of ties back into what you were saying about let AI write my code whole, completely no, there's still a requirement for that human judgment and decision-making. I think this is why I'm not afraid of it, right? This is kind of, I don't want to make this an AI show, it's about the future in 2025, but when we had a... Lance Dacy (08:17) All right. Right. Brian (08:40) When we've had AI shows, that's one of the things I've said to the audience here is that I'm not so afraid of AI being sort of the doom and gloom of it's going to destroy profession or destroy. It's going to change it. But I don't think that's any different than any other. A great kind of analogy I make is when we started to have testing automation. It didn't do away with testers. This is just another tool that's going to be in our tool belt. Lance Dacy (08:51) Guy net. Brian (09:05) And I think our challenge is not to, you know, we're agilist, not to resist change, but to try to adapt, try to find ways that we can align and incorporate and get the most out of it. So, yeah. Lance Dacy (09:17) I think the most part of that though is, Brian, too, what most people fear. And I agree with you, we won't make it an AI show. just, we got a couple of points to make on this. But for the first time ever in human history, we now have something that might be more intelligent than us. And that is scary because there's some AI neural network engines that people can't explain how it's working anymore. They put it in place. And then it's like, we're not quite sure how it's doing all of this. And that's a scary thing, obviously, that can get out of control. We've never really had to face that. So we do have to be aware of that, but you know, let's go back and peel it back. Hey, we're, trying to plan a backlog with AI and we're trying to write a few Ruby on Rails code. I'm not letting it run my life yet. And one day it may already be doing that. I just don't even know it. I don't know. We won't get into that debate, but I think the thing is that we need to take pause of in the agile industry. is we embrace new technology as long as it's helping us deliver faster to our customers and save us time and efficiency. You know, I tell teams all the time, Agile is about delivering the highest business value items as early as possible with the least amount of cost friction, know, whatever word you want to use for that. Well, AI might help us do that, but I want to caution that. I think you and I were just talking about this. I wanted you to bring up that news story element that we were talking about. where people are just pushing content out there and kind of desensitizing us to is that important information or not? And I think AI needs to tag onto that. So I didn't know if you could share that real quick and then I want to share some metrics that I've seen some teams capture. There's a lot of teams now adopting these things called Dora metrics, which was created by a DevOps engineering group. And it's amazing to me now that we have real data to see, well, we have embraced AI. Brian (10:45) Sure. Lance Dacy (10:59) does do some things or not, I'd like to balance the good with the bad on that. But can you go over that new stuff that you were sharing with me? Brian (11:05) Yeah, no, it's just a conversation I've been having recently with people, they're friends of mine and kind of, you're probably feeling the same way about this in certain places, but the breaking news alerts that you get on your phone, you get those things all the time and I've had friends and I have discussions about maybe it's time to just turn them off. There's just so many breaking news alerts and that's kind of the issue, right? Is that there are so many that are now classified as Lance Dacy (11:23) Yeah. Brian (11:31) breaking news that you kind of look at that and say, this isn't really breaking news. You know, like if something really major happens, yeah, I want to know about that. I'd like to get an alert about something that's truly breaking news. the, you know, have major news sources, apps on my phone and get those breaking news alerts all the time. And some of them are just things that are minor, minor news that I would be much better served seeing in a summary and like a daily summary or even a weekly summary on some of the things. Right. Lance Dacy (11:50) Yeah. Or if at all, like you don't care about the sub undersecretary of Parks and Lighting in Minnetoca. You know, I don't know. It's just like, thank you for that information. But I totally agree that I feel like we're getting desensitized to a lot of these words, buzzwords, if you will. And we as humans are going to have to learn in this environment. And I'm trying to teach this with my kids as well, because they're the ones suffering the most from it. Brian (12:04) Right. Yeah. Lance Dacy (12:22) It's just inane information out there and you're filling your brains with the main things. So AI is great because it's allowing people to deliver more content, but is that content of substance or they just trying to market to you and get you, I forget the word you use for it, but, you know, keep you on a leash. Is that what you said? A small. Brian (12:42) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's kind of what we were saying about this is that I think that the kind of conclusion that led me to is that I and I've seen this trend, I think in other areas as well, as I sort of feel like maybe with bigger companies, more than others in today's world, there seems to be a shift a little bit that, you know, for example, that that breaking news thing, it's not it's not something that benefits the customer, right? As the customer, I don't think there's a customer out there that says, I really love all these minor news stories appearing in my breaking newsfeed. But what it benefits is the company. It benefits the source because it keeps you engaged. It keeps you coming back and it keeps that ping to keep you engaged. And that's what they're trying to promote. That's good for the... Yeah, that's good for the company, but it's not good for the customer. I think that there may be, we may see some real kind of shifts I think happen in... Lance Dacy (13:21) Or me, it keeps me frustrated and I leave them. Brian (13:34) Some of those big companies maybe have moved too far in that way to favor their company's interest over the customer. And that leaves a door of opportunity, I think, for smaller companies to say, well, we're going to be all in on just what's best for the customer. And I think customers will appreciate that and will reward that because it's annoying otherwise. Lance Dacy (13:54) That's what I want to focus on because the last part of this AI conversation I want to have is I like a lot of what Gary Hamill, he's a management professor at a lot of different schools recently. He visits a lot of companies as well, but I really like the way he delivers his content and how he's more innovative and thought. I mean, I tell people all the time that management and leadership has not seen any innovation in 150 years. It's about time. that we start learning how to create cultures for human beings that are bringing gifts and talents every day to make things better for our customers. And Gary Hamill is a really good source if you're interested in those kinds of things. And so he emphasizes how AI has reshaped value creation by eliminating those low-level tasks that I think we all can embrace and are allowing agile teams to achieve unprecedented efficiency. Now... We are babies immature with this technology. So maybe these news organizations and the ones that we're going to kind of say, you're not doing a good job at it. It's not because they're bad. It's just we're learning how to use a new tool and hopefully customer feedback will change that. But I wanted to hit on these Dora metrics. Dora metrics are, I think they were created by DevOps research and assessment. That's what they kind of stand for. And there's four major categories. that Dora metrics measure as it relates to more of an engineering benchmark. Like how well are we, if you're an agile software development product company, Dora metrics are really good for you to look at. know, metrics can be misused, so be careful, but they're measuring outcomes. You know, what is our deployment frequency, which could be an output metric, because who knows if you're releasing the right things, but let's not get into that conversation. deployment frequency, lead time for changes, the change failure rate of your changes, and the meantime to recovery of those changes. I think those are really four good performance benchmarks. And they're starting to surface a lot in organizations that I work with. So you kind of use tools like Jellyfish or something to overlay over Jira. And all these tools are great, but these teams are using AI. And I found that we finally get some real data that says, how well is AI affecting those core metrics if you were measuring performance benchmarks of the software that you're delivering. And so this report that was created by the 2024 Accelerate State of DevOps report, they categorize organizations and performance clusters like elite, high, medium, and low. And based on their performance across these metrics that I just mentioned earlier, they're evaluating and guiding their software delivery practices. And so the impact of AI adoption was really cool to see on the DevOps Launchpad was a site that I saw this on, that the integration of AI into the development processes, as we were just talking about, has mixed effects on those door metrics. Can you believe that? So a 25 % increase in AI adoption correlated with a one and a half percent decrease in team throughput and a 72 % decrease in the stability of the product. Now these suggest that while AI, you know, offers productivity benefits maybe for the individuals or the teams, it has a, you know, it's introducing complexities that are affecting the software delivery performance. So I want our audience to pay attention to that. Brian (16:59) Wow. Wow. Lance Dacy (17:21) and start using some of these maybe to push back on managers and leaders that are just embracing this new tool and say, let's just push this on the teams. So that's the impact of AI adoption. And then if you look at platform engineering, so if you look at the implementation of an internal developer platforms, you know, that are helping developers deploy code faster, the adoption of AI led to an 8 % increase in individual productivity. and a 10 % increase at the team level. Now that's fantastic. But these gains were accompanied by an 8 % decrease in change throughput. So while the teams may be able to make changes, what I interpret that to mean is the customer is not seeing the changes. There's an 8 % decrease in the throughput all the way as a cycle time, if you will, all the way to the customer and a 14 % decrease in the stability of the product. So that indicates trade-offs. that we all need to be aware of that AI might be helping us performance wise, but it's not helping the customer a whole lot if we're destabilizing the platform. So I haven't dug into those metrics a lot, but I wanted to share that with the audience because if you do find yourself in a position where people are pushing this, you can try to go reference those and maybe give them some, I always call it pros and cons, right? There's no really right or wrong when you're an agile team trying to make a decision. You got to look at the pros and the cons and Brian (18:23) Yeah. Lance Dacy (18:40) We might accept a pro, multiple pros that come with some cons, but we all look at each other and say, that's the better decision for our customer. And we live with those cons, whatever they may be. So I wanted to talk about that because it centers on what you were just thinking with the news organization. just push, we got more productive at pushing content, but was it the right content or is it destabilizing what people are using? And you just have to be careful of that. Brian (18:57) Yeah. Yeah, no, I think those are excellent points. I think that's one of the things I see kind of for 2025 as well is that we're still so much in the empathy of how AI really plays into how a team operates and how development works that I don't think we can really say ultimately what's the right way or wrong way to do anything yet. I think it's good for teams to experiment. I don't think you should be afraid of experimenting and trying things. But it all comes back to the basic principle we say over and over as Agilist, inspect and adapt on it. Try something and identify what works about it and what doesn't work. And if that means that, we're using it too much and it's causing too much errors, we'll back off, find the right point, and move forward with that. Lance Dacy (19:41) Yeah. Or where companies are using it bad. Like I have a story that we won't get into here where a CEO or an executive of the company was mandating that they use AI to do something not so good for the customers. And you want to be able to push on that as well. So I'm sorry to interrupt you on that, but I was just like, man, that's something. Brian (20:07) Right. No. Lance Dacy (20:11) Sometimes, like we want to self-organize around the experimentation. We don't want it pushed in like management saying, need to use this because I want you more productive and managers be careful of doing that. Make sure you understand the pros and cons as much as you can before you dictate. Brian (20:26) Yeah. Something else you kind of said triggered something to me. I know the, I think that, well, not in a bad way, but it just, you know, the metrics I think that you mentioned were really good metrics. I liked the idea of kind of measuring, you know, things like, you know, the failure, the bug rate, you know, like how many defects and those kinds of things I think are good metrics. But they kind of, Lance Dacy (20:31) What? Okay. Brian (20:49) point out a certain difference that I think that's out there that I think the business community is wrestling with. And I hear these questions all the times in class, so I know it's prevalent out there. But we talk about building high performing teams. And just the difference between that word performing and productivity. There's sometimes I think confusion or false equivalency. between those two, that performance equals productivity. And I think a lot of the metrics sometimes we see that get measured or that we try to measure even, kind of expose that, as that's what's really the issue here, is that we're really trying to make that false equivalency between the two. It's not saying that performance has nothing to do with it, but Lance Dacy (21:15) Right. Brian (21:32) You know, this is the simplicity, the art of maximizing the amount of work not done is essential. You know, I'd rather have low productivity, but what we produce is high performing, is highly valuable, is something that matters, right? And I think that's kind of those kinds of statistics like you were bringing up, you know, what is our failure rate of things we put out there? Lance Dacy (21:44) Yeah. Brian (21:54) That is, I think, a performance metric to say, the old phrase, slow down to go faster. Right, right. Maybe the reason that our failure rate goes up and we're having problems with this is that we're trying to go too fast. And if we could back off, it ultimately makes you go faster if you have less bugs that you then have to go back and fix. Lance Dacy (22:00) Yeah, make hate, totally. Yeah. Brian (22:19) So it may be counterintuitive to certain organizations. Let's push them. Let's try to get everyone to go faster. But I think these new kind of metrics that you mentioned that we're trying to measure more and more, I think are starting to open people's eyes a little bit to the difference between those two words. Lance Dacy (22:22) I mean Well, in like the CrowdStrike situation, you know, that took down a lot of the airline systems, you know, I'm not saying they make, they didn't do a good job deploying and everything. All of us are victim of that kind of thing. But, know, to get us back on track a little bit, because you asked me the question, then I felt like I got us off on a tangent. know, 2024, obviously the rise of AI integration into Brian (22:48) Sure. Lance Dacy (22:54) the workflows that we experienced with Agile. And I just wanted to highlight, yeah, those are some great things, experiment with it. We're in our infancy. So there are a lot of things to discover that may not be so good. So start trying to put metrics in place. And I thought the Dora metrics, you know, as I've started discovering those, I'm a data guy and I'm like, yeah, as long as those are being tracked correctly, I think that's a good benchmark to kind of look at, hey, we're making a lot of changes in our software, but it's crashing the system. So change is good, crashing is bad. there's pros and cons, so we have to delegate that or figure that out. Now, the other one that you just mentioned, I thought I saw a great shift in 2024 from output related metrics to outcome oriented metrics. So the Scrum Alliance has a report, which we're all probably familiar with, especially you and I being certified Scrum trainers with, and we get a lot of data from them. But teams moved away from feature counts to measuring outcomes like Brian (23:35) Yeah. Yeah. Lance Dacy (23:49) customer satisfaction, user retention. You we teach this in our advanced certified Scrum Master workshops, the difference between output versus outcome metrics. And we've been doing that for five years. And I think it's really starting to take hold that management and leadership and maybe even teams are measuring the wrong thing. And I really saw the needle move in 2024 that people's eyes are opening that let's measure the outcomes of what we're doing. Sometimes that sacrifices individual productivity and performance for a greater outcome achieved at the organization or customer level. And we've been trying to articulate that for many years. And so I've seen a shift in that. And then also the rise of Agile beyond what I would generalize as IT. So Agile Alliance produced some information that I thought was interesting that Agile has expanded into health care or sectors like health care. education, human resources, HR, and those are typically what we would see the laggards, you know, back in the day, banking and healthcare and all those were the last people to adopt this progressive planning approach because of the way that they budget and finance and rightfully so. But those agile principles have been proven out far beyond software unpredictable type work and is going more into, you know, the different types of work environments and I think onto that is how it's getting involved more in leadership. So I don't know about you, but I've also seen people focusing more on building a culture of, I would like to call it leadership agility. So John Maxwell, you know, is a vocal person in the industry about leadership. And he underscored this idea that agile leadership. in driving transformation across non-technical domains. So not just a digital transformation, but non-technical domains is really taking hold in this idea of empowering cross-functional teams. You we've been saying this in technology for years, that the siloed development method is not good. Well, organizations are starting to see that not only in the tech sector, but why don't we put a marketing cross-functional team together with this other team? And that's what they talked about in 86. you know, in the new, new product development game. And I think I started to see the needle move a little bit more with leaders being more fascinated about leadership agility and driving culture change to meet the demands of cross-functional teams. And it could just be a by-product that technology has gotten easier to make these and focus on these things now, but psychological safety, know, sustainability and agile with, people having real goals and integrating. Brian (25:59) You Lance Dacy (26:23) What you see now is a lot of these eco-conscious practices coming in to product development, like the environmental, social, government's commitments as well, are making their way in there. So I want to just reflect on 2024. I don't know what you think. I'd love to interact with the audience too, but those are kind of the main things that I saw. And that will lead us into a good discussion of how we see that helping us in 2025. So what do you think about those? Brian (26:49) I One of the things I think that kind of stood out to me from what you talked about was the concept of how that plays in leadership. And I think you're absolutely right. think that is, I am hearing more of that in classes, people talking about that when they ask questions. You know, we've talked about for years that the fact that there can be sort of I don't know a better word to say but a glass ceiling sometimes in the organization for agile and how it spreads across and that leaders are often You know overlooked as far as getting trained in this kind of stuff and understanding it and I do see a rise in leaders trying to understand a little bit more about how can we You know incorporate this or even better, you know, how do we support? and nurture and foster this culture in our organization. So I think you're absolutely right. I think that is sort of a hidden or kind of a cheat code, if you will, for organizations to try to be more successful with the stuff we talk about is if you can have, it's not a top-down approach, but if you don't have the top on board, then they can really start to become a hindrance or a roadblock to the teams actually being successful with it. And so I agree. think that, you know, I'm hopeful that that shift is occurring. I'm seeing signs of that, you know, it's kind of always a little bit of a back and forth, you know, is it moving in that direction? Then I start to hear people say, no, we're having trouble. And the anecdotal little stories you hear makes you kind of not sure what the prevalence is, you know? Lance Dacy (27:54) Yeah Lose hope. You lose hope. I think, you know, the big takeaway for me for this as we talk about 2025 is it's going to be increasingly difficult and it has been increasingly difficult for any one individual company, product, service, whatever you want to call it, to differentiate yourself from other people. I've been telling my kids this forever. Brian (28:18) Right, right, exactly. Lance Dacy (28:38) that I feel I've seen a big shift from when I was back in early 90s, know, writing spreadsheets for people, they thought it was just unbelievable the work that I was doing because not everybody could do that. Well, everybody can do that now. So what I mean about differentiating yourself is, you know, AI is one of those things that you have to start prioritizing AI literacy because we've just talked about how immature we might be in some cases with this. But if we can ensure that our team members understand how to work effectively with those AI powered tools and letting AI be an active team participant, then I think we're going to start seeing even a greater problem with being able to differentiate yourself. So the main point I want to make for 2025 that I believe is going to be a real big focus is a is a hyper personalization of customer products. So there's a lot of companies out there that are really good. You just mentioned it with the news, right? Hey, I'm building your content, I'm keeping you engaged, but am I really serving you? Am I giving you your needs? And maybe it's okay if news organizations do that if you have a way to filter it and customize it. But really what I'm talking about is, and I'll go back to what Gary Hamill says about this. He says, the markets are crowded. And when you have the rise of AI and tools like Trello, Monday, and things like that, those are project management tools, right? Used to, you could be a better product company just if you would manage your work better. You know, you were using Scrum or Agile, you had an edge on everybody else. You could deploy faster and that was your secret sauce, right? But now that most people can do that now, what's your next up level in game? And he thinks it's going to be this hyper personalized customer solution and engagement. Brian (30:06) Right. Lance Dacy (30:23) where we need to invest in more customer discovery processes. You know how hard that is in teaching tech teams to do that? All we focus on is building the features, but how about we get better at customer discovery and really understand the tools that provide deep insights into their behavior so we can recognize that? know, several companies that I think are on the forefront of that, for those of you who are like, yeah, I'm concerned about that too. Where can we get better at that? I mean, go look at Amazon. Brian (30:30) Yeah. Lance Dacy (30:51) You know, Amazon uses highly sophisticated algorithms to analyze customer behavior, which enables them to produce product recommendations and help you buy things you didn't even know. You remember when we would teach like Kano analysis in a product owner class and they had six categories of features and one of those feature categories was an exciter or delighter feature. You know, the key to being a good differentiator is providing product and features that people didn't even know they needed. That's why customers are not always right, you know, on what they need. They're thinking about their reactive sense. And so how can we get better at predicting their behavior even more than they can and use AI and machine learning that allow for real-time adjustments? Because that used to take forever. You you think about Benjamin Graham's book on investing in the 1940s and 50s, trying to predict what the stock market is going to do is nearly impossible now. But can you imagine how he differentiated himself by doing all these algorithms by hand? Brian (31:20) Yeah. Lance Dacy (31:48) And so what I mean by that is we need to use AI and these tools to help do more predictive customer experiences. So Amazon does a good job. Netflix employs a lot of data analytics to help understand viewing habits. Starbucks does this. Spotify does it. So I really feel like in 2025, if you want something to focus on and you're a software product development company practicing agile, build literacy of AI tools with your team. Make sure we're using them the right way. Track the right. data, but more importantly, let's discover what our customers are doing and behaving and use the AI to help us decipher that information a lot easier so that we as humans can make a decision on where we spend the great scarce capacity of our teams building great products for them. And so there's a lot of things that go into that, but I feel like that's going to be the focus in 2025. That's what's going to separate the people that succeed even individually. How are you going to differentiate yourself from a market pool of people out there? You need to start learning how to use these tools and differentiate yourself. That's the for 2025. Brian (32:52) Yeah. No, that's a great point. I'll tag on and say that I know there's this, people probably have heard of this, there's a social media kind of trend of if you use chat GPT or something like that a lot to go to it and say, tell me some insights about myself that I may not know, just based on all my interactions with you. And that was a trend for a while for people to ask that and then. they were shocked in some of the things that would come out from chat GPT. Well, what I found in taking a couple of courses and things about AI is, it's really good at taking a large amount of data and then pulling out things that you may not be aware of. I think that's going to be something, the more data driven we are, obviously the better because we have facts behind it. And as you said, it has to be the right, we have to collect the right kind of data. you can take a big... Lance Dacy (33:19) Yep. Yes. Brian (33:43) source of data and feed it into an AI like ChatGPT and say, give me five hidden insights from this data. Yeah. Lance Dacy (33:50) Yeah, stuff you thought about, right? I think insights, that's the way to put it. And I used to have a saying being a data analytics guy for 20 years. Most people and organizations are data rich, but information poor. And I would like to change that word nowadays to insights poor because Brian (34:09) Yeah. Lance Dacy (34:09) We may have all the data and tracking data, there's no harm in that, know, storage is cheap these days. So go ahead and track it all. You can report on it infinite number of ways. And that's the secret sauce. And I think you just hit it on the head that, just go ahead and start tracking stuff. Let AI, you can't ever read that amount of data as a human being and decipher it. Let the machine do that. But then you can test it. You can say, do I really believe that or not? Because you have a humanistic experience that AI doesn't have. So we should embrace that. Brian (34:40) Yeah, I agree. Well, I mean, I hope people are hopeful. I'm hopeful. I know when I start a new year, I generally am hopeful because that's just the way I try to start new years. But I'm hopeful for some of these changes. think the tools that we have are just making things, some things that might have been more mundane, a little easier for us to do. And maybe that allows us to focus. Well, like the data I brought about at the very beginning, you the fact that there's a rise in, you know, postings and companies needing jobs that require human judgment and decision-making. I think that's where we're headed is, you know, that rise in human judgment and decision-making skill. And that's something that's at least at the moment, you know, our computers can't do for us. And it really does require, just like you talked about, understanding our customers. I can't put an AI out there to try to interview all my customers and get deep. Well, but not and get the kind of deep insights I want, right? Not to find out what the real problems are. It wouldn't know how to question it enough and dig deeper into different ways to truly figure those out. So it requires huge human judgment and decision-making. And I think that's where we... Lance Dacy (35:35) you could. Right. Brian (35:51) now bring the value is in that area. Lance Dacy (35:53) Well, and people hate change, right? So let's just end with this. know, most people, customers, you change things on the product. You put a new car design. We usually don't like it. So you want to hang in there and not get too distracted by noise with that. mean, remember when the first iPhone came out, you know, older generations like this is too complicated. I don't want to use it. And there is something to say for that. But eventually that's what we use and we learn how to adapt to it. So stay hyper competitive in 2025. Foster continuous learning for your team. So stay updated on industry trends. It'll lead time to experiment and invest in your team's learning. Prioritize collaboration and innovation. None of us are smarter than all of us together. Break down the silos. Encourage the cross-functional collaboration. And experimentation is going to be key. Leaders and managers in particular. must foster an environment where it's safe to not do so well. I tried something, it didn't work, and I'm sorry about that, but I learned from it and I'm going to try it this way next time. That's not a huge thing right now. We need to foster that. The last one, focus on delivering value. Keep the customer at the center of everything. Use metrics to measure your real world impact, not just the outputs. And I think that's how we can summarize everything that we talked about. Those are the three things if we had to take away. continuous learning, collaboration and innovation, and focus on delivering value. Good luck in 2025, right, Brian? Brian (37:19) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's awesome. Well, I hope this has been beneficial to folks. And Lance, I appreciate you keeping our tradition and helping us look forward into the new year. obviously, a very happy new year to you and your family. And thank you for coming back and joining us. Lance Dacy (37:35) Yeah, likewise to you, Brian. Glad to do it. Hope to see you all soon. Thank you all.

In this episode, Brian Milner and Lance Dacy dive into the evolving world of software development, exploring how AI and automation are reshaping the landscape. They discuss the essential skills developers need in this new era, from embracing AI as a tool to mastering emotional intelligence and continuous learning. Overview Brian and Lance discuss the transformative impact AI and automation are having on the software industry. They explore the importance of adaptability, continuous learning, and cross-functional expertise, emphasizing how developers can thrive by embracing AI as a tool rather than a threat. The conversation highlights the growing need for soft skills like emotional intelligence, curiosity, and collaborative leadership, and encourages developers to be open to new technologies and ways of working to stay competitive in the ever-evolving tech landscape. References and resources mentioned in the show: Lance Dacy Big Agile “Be curious, not judgemental” – Walt Whitman #54: Unlocking Agile’s Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy #63: The Interplay Between Data Science and Agile with Lance Dacy #82: The Intersection of AI and Agile with Emilia Breton #99: AI & Agile Learning with Hunter Hillegas Accurate Agile Planning Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. How's your week going? I hope everyone's week is going well. Yeah, I'm switching things up. I'm not saying things exactly as I did the past 100 episodes. But welcome in. I hope you guys are having a great week. We are back with you here at the Agile Mentors Podcast. And I have one of our favorites back with us. I have one of our repeat visitors, Lance Dacys with us. Welcome back, Lance. Lance Dacy (00:28) Thank you, Brian. Great to be here. Brian (00:30) Always excited to have Lance with us because we always have such great conversations. And I wanted to have Lance back because we were talking about something recently that I think might be a good topic for us, might be on a lot of people's minds. And that is really kind of getting into this, what we've loosely termed the new age of development. With the new tools and new kind of the way that AI has worked its way into things and automation. How is this going to change and affect our teams? How is it going to change and affect how we develop? How is it going to change and affect the software industry? Lance, I know you had some thoughts on this. I'm going to just open the floor for you and let you take it from there. Lance Dacy (01:15) That's great, Brian. My heart is always with organizations and developers, just trying to help people get better. You and I shared that vision that I remember a long time ago, even at DFW Scrum, one of our vision statements was just trying to help you to do better today than you did yesterday. It's like, what are the things that we can help teams and organizations? And something's real heavy on my mind lately as I work with these teams. You know, we have these notions out there like Agile is dead and, you know, where is Agile headed? And that's not really what this is about here because I think what's happening, as a lot of people have already said, it's just become more of the mainstream. Let's quit labeling it. You know, like Mike always tells us, object -oriented programming won. We don't really call it that anymore. Objects won and off we went. So I'm not really focused so much on the agile type scenario, but we do work in Scrum and agile teams and I see plenty of organizations that need help with that. And I still encounter to this day, developers who are lagging behind on their skills, right? We get so focused in the day -to -day feature development of our roadmap and things like that. that I just fear that developers aren't setting enough time aside or not challenging the organization to help them do that, to learn new skills. And I started compiling this list of like, if I go in and start teaching teams how to do scrum and how to manage your backlog and how to do that, it doesn't matter if they don't have the skills because everything we talk about in Agile is based on reducing waste and the more of these skills gaps that we have. then I find the more handoffs and the more bottlenecks and you know that's one of the eight waste, you know, of lean. And so that's what I wanted to talk about today. And I love the topic like the new age of development. I'm not going to sit here in a spouse to claim to say, here's all the skills you're going to need. But as you and I work, I think we can find plenty of examples to help guide some of these people, even Scrum Masters that are coaching teams or agile coaches, you know, just kind of put some thoughts in their mind about. know, these skills and I have about a short list of five that I've seen growing and then thought we'd go from there. Brian (03:30) That sounds great. I want to dive into one that I know is on your list and it's one we kind of talked about here beforehand, but that is kind of how AI is affecting teams and the skills needed to be relevant with that. Now, I want to preface this by just saying my own personal opinion here on this. I'm not a doom and gloom person when it comes to AI. don't really see it much different than... Lance Dacy (03:34) Thank So, I'll see you. Brian (03:59) how automation really changed things like testing. When automation entered the testing realm, we didn't lose all our testers. We still needed testing. It just was a tool that enhanced the way we did testing. And I think AI is sort of going to be that for how we program. don't think we're at a place where, or I don't know, things could change quickly, obviously, but I don't feel like we're within 10 years. of it completely replacing developers. I think we're still going to need to have expertise. We're still going to need to have that guidance. Maybe 10 years is too big of a window. don't know. Maybe five years? I don't know. Lance Dacy (04:42) These days you don't know. I just thought yesterday something changed. No, I'm just kidding. Brian (04:46) Right, right. But I don't see that happening in the near term window for sure, just because it does a lot of things well, but it doesn't create. It can do things based on what's already been done, but it can't really then go through and create something entirely new itself. So I think you still need human beings for that component of it. Lance Dacy (05:04) Done. Brian (05:15) And I think for developers, learning how to integrate that kind of tool set to help you reduce your errors, define bugs, AI is great at looking over a huge chunk of your code and finding potential issues that you can go back and look at. That can save you enormous amounts of time. So I think there's skill involved there for for the developers segment that I think is embracing it rather than kind of holding it at arm's length and saying, that's the enemy, that's gonna somehow replace me. No, think of it like automation. It's not to replace you, it's just another tool to enhance and give you time to do other things. Lance Dacy (06:02) I think, you know, you mentioned, don't think you and I either would be convicted of being doom and gloom people. think we're pretty well optimistic, right? It is scary. mean, obviously these things that are changing, you're like, my gosh, I have to, the main word I keep thinking about is adaptability. You know, I've got four kids. I keep telling them the best skill they can do is learn how to learn, you know, and I think you just used a perfect example in development about test automation. Brian (06:10) Yeah. Lance Dacy (06:30) We weren't scared of that. The testers might have been because they're like, well, what do I do now? Well, you got to go learn a new skill, right? But it freed us up. Can you imagine still doing, there's companies out there that still do manual testing, and they have to wait until all the changes are in until they do testing, and you will never compete. in a good hyper competitive marketplace doing things like this. So the test automation freed us up and actually what I used to tell my teams is it gives you more confidence, right? So developers can make more radical changes in the code without feeling like, know, you. You blow on something and then it breaks. know, y 'all ever seen code like that before? And it's like, I think it builds their confidence that test automation helped them to be more efficient and more productive because they can experiment more. think that's the goal is I write this code and I can quickly test to see what happens. And I start building my confidence and I can make more radical changes to the system instead of tiptoeing or walking on eggshells. So I'll date myself a little bit. Your example is probably much better than mine. But can you believe I don't use a Maps Go anymore? Y 'all remember the days of trying to navigate a street address with a Maps Go or a real map? I mean, I'm kind of at that bridge where we started having online maps, but you still had to know where you're going and print it out before you left and then take it in your car. You're still trying to read it as you're driving. I mean, who does that anymore, right? So I get in my car these days and now I don't even have to plug CarPlay or Android or whatever you have. It's wireless. You just get in and I'm now a co -pilot in my car. And we kind of laughed about that. think the last episode we're on and I can just drive around in it. I just do what it tells me to do. But it'll never replace my experience, my opinions, and my knowledge of the world. So I can. Brian (08:05) Right. Lance Dacy (08:20) you know, sidestep any suggestions it has, but it helps me be more productive. It knows where traffic is. I don't know that. You know, I know the city I live in and I know five different ways to get somewhere, but I don't know if there's a road closed or anything like that. So I feel like with developers, we need to start embracing some of these tools to help you be more confident, help you. mean, goal of agility, right, is to go faster, go faster than our competitors. So I feel like that's the premise of what we're trying to accomplish here is optimism with these tools. AI is just one of them. But we all have that in our day -to -day lives. test automation is good. I've got the driving. What's another one you got, Brian, that's made you more efficient with AI? Brian (09:01) Well, just before we move on, one thing I wanted to kind of throw out there because I heard this example recently for AI and I thought this was a kind of a really good practical example. If you've been a developer for any amount of time or if you've ever developed in the past, you've unlikely encountered a situation where you've had to go into somebody else's code. And when you do that and you have to enter, especially if it's like a rat's nest of code that you can't really make it out, it's been there for a long time. and it's fragile, no one wants to delve into it. Well, I read this article from a guy who basically had used this legacy code base and entered into AI and had AI go through and comment and help them learn what the different sections of the code did and how it was structured and organized. And it just saved them an enormous amount of time in trying to understand what had come before. Because you know, Like I said, we've all entered those places where we've had to come in behind someone else that is no longer there and try to figure out where we get started, even if it's not code, right? Even if it's something else, but we've all had to come behind someone else. And if we can take a folder full of documents, feed it into AI and then say, help me understand blah, blah, blah. Yeah, summarize this. Help me understand where would I go for this? That's just an enormous time saver. And that's what I think is really great about it is Lance Dacy (10:17) you summarize this. Brian (10:27) So as far as skills are concerned, think prompt engineering is a good one. think coding, interacting with code with an AI agent so that you can create your own AI agents so that you can programmatically call that information. If you're a coder and you can do that, man, to me it's like it just exploded. And now the possibilities are endless of what you can do with that kind of stuff. Lance Dacy (10:57) just dated myself with Cliff Notes too, right? Just think of it like on the fly Cliff Notes. And I heard Alastair Coburn, one of the thought leaders in our industry, been around for a very long time trying to help humans and machines interact better. And he kind of summarized really well about what it's doing in his life is saving him keystrokes. Brian (11:03) Right! Lance Dacy (11:19) And that's kind of like what I wanted to focus on with developers. Can you imagine if you got to spend more time being creative and less time writing on a keyboard to the computer, like you just talk to it. I'm getting to the point now, I used to text all the time and I used to laugh at people that hold the phone up to their voice and they talk into it. I fat finger things and misspelled things so much, all I do is just talk into it anymore. So I feel like coding, that's what it's, you're not even going to tell it the code to write. You're going to have to be... more problem solving design engineer, you less code writing, more problem solving and understanding the domain in which you're trying to automate and algorithm design and ethical considerations that go along with that. But the computer won't be able to do that, but it'll save you keystrokes. It'll save you time. And I think Alistair summed that up pretty good that way. Brian (12:07) Yeah, it's architecture, right? We have to be better architects at what it is we're trying to develop. that way we can give the rough architecture and let AI do the dirty work of the small details to fill in. Lance Dacy (12:21) Well, you mentioned something too about boundaries, right? So AI has to operate within boundaries of what you feed it to learn off of. It's very, I'm not going to say never always really, that's a hard thing to say these days, but it's going to be very surprising if AI can just generate new ideas. It'll probably generate new ideas, but from what? I was working with a client yesterday that comes from more of the manufacturing world and he's really struggling with leadership agility. Like how do I lead and build a culture in a world for people who do the kind of work that we normally focus on with software engineering and development? He said he's a mechanical engineer and I kept using the word knowledge work, right? So the people who do our kind of work, the reason it's so complex, risky, uncertain, unpredictable and all those things is because it's kind of like knowledge and critical thinking and creative work. And he goes, but how is that different? I'm a mechanical engineer. How does that differ from software engineer? And I said, you know, it's a really good point. It's nothing about who's smarter than who, right? So I'm not trying to put anybody down on that. But in the world of mechanical engineering, you are bound by physics. are like you work in the space industry. Yeah, you're doing some cool things and you got to come up with new ways of doing things, but you still have to operate with. physics and astrophysics within those boundaries that we know about with space. But in software, and I sit down and start writing something, there's no boundaries. Like I can use any technology I want, can come up with any, I'm limited by my own skills and abilities. So why not let AI go help me get ideas? I'm not saying you got to write it all for you, because hey, I told one of the AI tools to write me an e -commerce site in Ruby on Rails. and it gave me all the scaffolding and if I would have taken that and start putting it in, then I can start elaborate. But how much time does that save me? How am gonna construct the file? So it kind of handles that architecture, but then I gotta put my critical thinking on it. I just feel like it's gonna make us, if we embrace it correctly, it's just gonna make us more efficient in that way. Brian (14:22) I agree. So what was one of the other skills that you had down that you thought of as being a new era kind of skill? Lance Dacy (14:29) So I'll just go through the four left real quick. I was thinking about cross -functional expertise and we can dive into some of those a little bit. Most Scrum teams we say, hey, you got to have cross -functional teams. And that doesn't mean everybody knows everything. It just means we have all the skills on the team to bring something usable by the end of the iteration. But I feel like cross -functional these days is no longer about coding. Like I know a front -end developer, back -end developer, database person, tester, UI, UX, architecture. These are more like understanding what we call now DevOps, cloud infrastructure, hardware, software integration, particularly in fields like, I work with some defense people, some aerospace engineering, writing code is like bare minimum anymore. So if you can do that, celebrate that, but you've got to move beyond that and start understanding these machines hardware, which leads me to my next one, which is continuous learning and adaptability. because the rate of change in software frameworks and tools we just talked about has accelerated. And if we're not keeping up with that and learning from that, you're gonna be left behind. So be agile in that regard. The last two I had on my list, one I'm just gonna brand it as cybersecurity. Brian (15:47) Yeah. Lance Dacy (15:47) cryptography, like I got a, went to school and for data science, you know, got my master's degree when just after COVID started, I had no idea what I was thinking, but it actually was pretty good because it was all online anyway. But I had to take a lot of cryptography classes way over my head, but at least I understand the terminology and the nomenclature, but that's going to be the key. is, and I've read somewhere, I can't remember the article, but there's like a shortage of 79 ,000 jobs in cryptography. So if you're looking and you're scared for the future, go start learning cryptography and security because these, you know, specifically zero trust architecture, these things that a lot of blockchains have been pioneering in the last couple of years, we're going to have to start locking these things down because every time we find a better way to do security, a hacker undoes that. And this was the cat and mouse game forever and ever. I don't think that will go away. So cybersecurity and more like risk management, you need to understand coding practices for that, as well as how the hardware, the protocols, how do these things talk to one another? And then the last one I just branded is more like... collaborative leadership and communication. need a stronger, you know, used to we would think of software coders sitting in a dark basement, just leave them alone and let them code. And I think we're getting to the direct opposite of that. They need to be leaders out talking to the people who need these systems, going back to that cross -functional expertise. you need to do better communication to the non -technical people so you understand what you're trying to accomplish and automate for those people in the world of cybersecurity and how software tools are changing. People get tired of the buzzwords, right? The technology jargon. So you're going to have to learn how to do that. And I think data scientists are going to be, they're kind of the first group that I've seen this happen. Like when we talk about data science and analytics and AI and Scrum, We've done a couple of podcasts on that. The issue is not just, I'm going to demonstrate what I've shown you, but now I'm going to partner with you and say what I think we should do next. Like I can model a data system ad infinitum, but my theory is I think I've done the best we can do. You can spend two more million dollars and we'll get this much or spend a thousand dollars. do this. And you have to partner with them on that. So those are kind of the five here. You mentioned the first one. So AI and automation, integration, things like that, cross -functional expertise. continuous learning and adaptability, the cryptography, cybersecurity realm, whatever you want to call it, and then collaborative, more collaborative leadership and communication. So those were the five gaps that I think if developers are scared and want to shore up their skills, those are kind of the five that I'm telling my teams to go look for. Brian (18:38) That's a great list. I throw a couple, I don't have a full list like you brought, but there's a couple of things that just popped in my head that I would throw into that list as well. One is what I'm just going to call teaming. Because I think there's a need, there's a real need in the marketplace today of people understanding how to do work in a team. Because regardless of what the work is, regardless of what the industry is or the Lance Dacy (18:51) Yeah. Brian (19:07) backdrop is, you know, most, most jobs, you work together with a group of people to accomplish something in some way, shape or form. That's part of the reasons why shows like The Office or movies like Office Space are so funny is because it's so bad in so many places that people don't really, we laugh at it because we all painfully are aware of how bad it is. Right? Right. Lance Dacy (19:35) It's real. We get it the mark. Brian (19:38) So being able to understand how a group of people actually do work together well to accomplish something. And I'm not talking about hokey kind of motivational, hey everybody, let's make sure we put on our happy faces today. Right, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about just, we all go, know, the way I explained it in classes, do we think of teaming as sort of the way you would do golf on a team? where everybody goes and shoots their own 18 holes and then we total up the score? Or do you think of teaming more like it would be in football or basketball or soccer or something like that where everyone's on the field at the same time, we all have the same goal, we're all moving towards the same goal and we do whatever is needed to accomplish that goal. We have to work together. If you go to any youth sport in the world that's a team, what's the one thing that you'll hear people say, from a sideline over and over the coaches say to the team, you got to talk to each other. Right, communicate, talk to each other, call for the ball, right? And that's such an essential teaming kind of component of that, that I think that's one of the big things there is just being able to understand how to team. Lance Dacy (20:37) Communicate, yeah. Well, and if you don't know what you're supposed to do, ask somebody. So that's the, you know, I'm not going into psychological safety, but how many people feel safe in an organization going, I don't know how to do this because then you're like, my gosh, if I don't know how to do it, I'll get fired. I lose my job. do this. so cultures have to change as well. I don't have that on my list because this was more specific to contributing it as a team. But I think that's a really important call out. know, professional sports get a bad rap when we use analogies. I love them. because I love sports and I know some people don't play sports and I get that, but you at least have seen them. But that's a great example of five people, 11 people, eight people, whoever it is on the field together with one goal. How important is that? And how often do organizations do a good job at centering people around a one goal? Terrible. We do a terrible job at that. But that's out of the, developers, when I say collaborative leadership, they need to start pushing on those things. So that's, I guess we could call those soft skills. What would you call those, Brian? Brian (21:53) Well, actually that was gonna be my next thing was kind of more of these soft skills that I know a lot of people really hate that term and you can use whatever term you wanna. Right, I mean, that's one of them, right? But I mean, just being able to navigate conflict on a team. Lance Dacy (22:01) emotional intelligence. I've heard that. Yeah, fill in gaps when you don't have a skill. Go learn it. Solve, work the problem. You know, remember Apollo 13 is like one of my favorite movies. It was a really well done one. And Ed Harris is a great example in that, as he plays Gene Crantz, know, as Apollo 13 was having its issues. Brian (22:17) Yeah. Lance Dacy (22:27) and work the problem people, they don't know what they're doing. They're all smart people getting together, but they need something. They have to talk and collaborate. So I think that's a huge one. how do you learn to do that? You gotta go do it. You can't read a book and say, how do I get more collaborative? You gotta have, I call it attitude, aptitude, and drive. If you don't have the right attitude or tone when you work with people, They're going to shy away from you and not tell you everything you think. So you want to be approachable. You want to be, hey, bring me any problem you have. Let's talk about it. Like you want to be, that's what I call the right attitude to succeed. Aptitude obviously is your ability to learn something new and get up to speed. And then the drive to succeed. How many people have you worked with where they just do the bare minimum getting by just collecting their paycheck, you know? developers face that, right? So if you're one of those people, if you really want to shore up your skill, go figure out how to change your attitude or maybe you're in the wrong business. But how would you, you know, that's a good one to think about. How would you help fine tune those as a person? What could you go do to shore up your attitude, aptitude and drive? I'll put you on the spot, Brian. I'm sorry. you've done a lot of good talks recently on the neurodivergent and I know you've Brian (23:38) What? Lance Dacy (23:44) you know, the research that you've done on that, that's more of what I'm talking about here is finding your place in the world of every, you know, bring your gift and talent in whatever state it is, but how could you train yourself to be more approachable and have a better drive? What do you think? Brian (23:59) Yeah, well, so my biggest advice there is, I'll quote Ted Lasso who's quoting someone else, but right, be curious, not judgmental, right? That old phrase, which is not his, I forget where it comes from, I think it was, I don't wanna get it wrong. Right, right. Lance Dacy (24:10) We all knew something from Ted Lasso, right? You'll put it in the notes, I guess, later. Brian (24:27) But that phrase I think should be kind of a hallmark for how we approach things is with curiosity. Like why is it this way? Why is it working this way? And what's behind that rather than that's wrong or that's bad or that's whatever. Right, right. You know, someone does things a different way. Well, that's curious. I wonder why they do that that way. Is that the best way to do things? Let's discuss it. Let's analyze it. Lance Dacy (24:42) Or what are you making? Brian (24:56) I just want to briefly say too, when you mentioned the sports analogies things and how we get in trouble sometimes for using sports analogies, I say this in my classes, at its core, I can't really completely get away from sports analogies because Scrum is a sports analogy. Lance Dacy (25:17) In 1986, they used a professional example, team example, of how products were succeeding in 86. Sony, know, Honda, Canon, all of them, and that's what spawned that article for it, right? Brian (25:23) Right. And that article says, you know, the relay race approach to doing things is not the right way. That's a sports analogy, right? It's talking about relay races and handing the baton off between one runner and the other runner. And, you know, that's a sports analogy. And think in teaming, there's an inherent kind of, all right, we don't have to get into all the rules and regulations of the different sports. You don't have to follow them. But I think we can, like you said, I think we can all understand. that when you have a team on the field at the same time, there's a big difference between that and, like I said, golf, where I'm just gonna go shoot my 18 holes, right? But what somebody else is doing doesn't affect me, right? I mean, it affects me at the end of the day with the score, but it doesn't affect, if I'm on the fifth hole, I don't really need to even know what anybody else is doing because I'm just, I'm shooting the best 18 holes I can shoot, right? Lance Dacy (26:08) Do the best I can in my one skill. Yeah. And you do have a shared goal, right? We're trying to get the best score, but you're more limited. You can't help other people. Like what is the, it's the attitude I really think, I wish I had a better word for it, but when you walk out on the field, you either are there to do whatever you can to succeed within your capacity and have an attitude of, let's pick each other up. Everybody's going to have good and bad days. We know that. So somebody's going to show up on the team and be like, man, I'm sick or. I'm moving and I'm scattered all over the place and I'm going to be a little flighty this week. People pick each other up. Like, how do we learn to do that, Brian? How do we, how do we, how can we teach people, especially developers to contribute on their teams in that way? It's not about your skills. It's about your attitude, your aptitude and drive. Brian (27:12) Yeah, and I think what's at the core of that for a lot of teams and I had several conversations with the different agile conferences I went to this year with people about this. There's this cultural aspect that is so much more important than any of the details that we get into as far as meeting length and who attends and all that. It's just at its core, do you inspect and adapt? Right? Do you actually take time when you... Lance Dacy (27:21) Yep. Brian (27:42) And it sounds so simple, right? But how many times have you been involved with something at work where everyone knows it's the wrong way to do it, right? Everyone knows that's a terrible thing that's happening in our work. And we all can just kind of shrug our shoulders and say, well, I guess that's the way it has to be. Why? Why don't we inspect and say, why are we doing it that way? Is there another way we could do things? And then we try something different. Lance Dacy (28:07) Well, and pull it up because the other problem is the hierarchy of a traditional management driven organization is do I have the courage, you know, one of the scrum values courage to raise that flag and stand up for what's right or our fear of losing my job. And I'm going to encourage you developers out there. If you really want to do a great job, you're a great developer and you're not just trying to get by. I would challenge you like I had to learn a long time ago and say, if I do those things and I get fired, I don't want to work at that organization anyway. But that takes a lot more courage because you got a family and you got all this stuff. But you might have your answer if you start raising the flag. don't be an ass about it. Be an attitude, aptitude, and drive. But that's why I said number three on my list here was continuous learning and adaptability. You have to learn that. Brian (28:54) Yeah. Yeah. And I'll give you kind of a practical example here. So if you're working on a team and let's say that you need to get approval to do something, okay? If you have to get that approval and you know that approval is going to cause a delay because I've got to go get approval to do this. Well, be curious, ask the question, why do I need to have this approval? What's the purpose behind getting this approval? And if the answer, if there is a good answer, right? Well, we have to do that because compliance is really important with us and our safety or whatever. And if we don't do that, then we can have a catastrophic event. All right, there's a good reason to get approval. But if the reason comes back, well, because that's the way it always has been, we've always had to ask four layers of approval to get something done. Maybe then question it and say, hey, is there a... Can you help me understand the purpose of getting these four layers of approval? Is there really a need to get four layers of approval for this? What's the downside if I don't get approval for this? Is it catastrophic if I make a decision that maybe one of those four layers of approval disagrees with? Can it still be changed later? What I try to tell people is the speed you get from not having to go through those four layers of approval is far outweighing any kind of small mistake that that person might make. So that's kind of a practical example to say, be curious about it. Try to inspect and adapt. Why is it this way? Does it need to be this way? Is there a reason why we're doing it this way? And if there's not a good answer as to why, then I think it's not bad to question it. Lance Dacy (30:39) Yeah. And they're never going to say, well, we like ossified and calcified processes. Every time we have a problem, we add more checks and balances to them. We never remove them. And that's one of the bane of the team's existences these days is, yeah, we got to mitigate risk and we can't be haphazard, but that's why you got to shore up your skills on this automation and get better at problem solving, less coding and more problem solving. And I tell you what, Brian, we were going to wrap up at the end of the podcast with what I wanted to talk about is don't be scared about AI because I don't think, like I said, I don't want to use the word never or always, but I really think it's going to be hard for AI to learn and take our place in number one, emotional intelligence and empathy. you know, AI can certainly analyze patterns of what it's been for, but truly understanding emotions, nuance, and the complexities of human relationships, which is what we're talking about here. Tone AI don't, I don't think it'll ever really learn how to do that or well. All right. on top of that, be the ethical side of it, right? The cultural things and ethical, know, you could put boundaries on it. can give it rules. But I think humans have a really good, well, most humans have a good sense of that. So I think emotional intelligence and empathy, I creative problem solving and artistry. I kind of use the word artistry for developers as well, like writing code and architecting code and the hardware infrastructure and all that that goes into that. AI can generate the beginning, like AI can generate art. It can generate music if you heard some of these things. I mean, they're good. I see the art, I see the music, but it's all based on patterns. It lacks the ability to produce truly original works that stem from like live experiences and personal insights. So celebrate that and bring that to your job. And I think alongside that is complex thinking, know, strategic thinking, leadership, critical thinking, things like that. know, AI is effective at optimizing and analyzing data and helps us, you know, like COBOL used to read and write data faster than any other system. Humans can't keep up with that. Our processor is the bottleneck. So use that, offload that to something else. But your leadership requires abstract thinking and foresight and the ability to motivate people is something that AI really is not going to be able to do. So start shifting your focus from, you know, the things of data and analyzing. let the computer summarize that and then you put your critical thinking on it. And I think that's where you're going to find a better place for yourself as developers. You're going to be and need to be technologists, but that blurring of the line between DevOps and coding is coming and coming and coming. So you have to start learning the hardware that's running all this stuff and make higher level decisions and less of the lower level. So celebrate your emotional intelligence. your empathy, build those skills up, never lose sight of critical problem solving and artistry that you bring to the table and complex thinking and adaptability. Those are the things that you need to focus on, I think, as developers and embrace this AI to make you more efficient. That's my opinion. Brian (33:59) Yeah. And I'd say, you know, I just tag one last thing on that and it's to say, you know, with the new tools, with the new kind of AI stuff and things that come along, be curious, not judgmental. Ask about how I could use that to my advantage. You you mentioned the music kind of software. I think I know musicians who are using that kind of software to help them, but they see it more as a tool, not as, and now it'll do the job for me. just like I wouldn't go and put in into chat GBT, write me a whole book on something, right? Right, right. I'm not gonna go, if I'm a musician, I'm not gonna go say write a whole song and I'm gonna just take that lock, second barrel, here's everything that that put out and I'm not gonna alter their change. No, but I can get an idea, I can get a melody or a hook or something that I could use and then I can build upon that. So. Lance Dacy (34:34) And then just spin that over. Yeah. And those are always patterns, like every music you hear somebody, it could sound like another song. So you're not really violating ethics there. Like I used AI one time, you my son's learning how to do guitar and I play piano, but I was like, give me eight chord structures that are sad. I mean, there's a certain number of combinations and you listen to them and you're like, okay, now I can add a song under that. But I didn't have to sit around and pick forever and ever like they did, you know, in the old days, which I celebrate that. I think that's great. But why not have eight of them there? And I say, I like that one or don't give me eight more, you know, give me eight more. Brian (35:13) Sure. Right, right, right. So think of it more as a tool, right? Well, this has been great. think this is, hopefully we've given everyone a lot to think about here. And if there's one thing I kind of sum up, I hope that people look at it, maybe we're a little too Pollyanna about this, if that's a dated reference too, but naive. But I would say, Lance Dacy (35:32) Yeah. Brian (35:57) try to be more hopeful about these tools and say, can I use them to my advantage rather than how can I, how is it going to destroy it? Lance Dacy (36:04) Attitude, aptitude and drive. Have a great attitude, right? Say, hey, I'm going to embrace this stuff and not so much doom and gloom. Go figure out how you can use it to your advantage and you're going to separate yourself from everybody else. Totally agree with that. Brian (36:07) There we go. Love it. Well, Lance, thanks for coming on again. I appreciate you taking time. Lance Dacy (36:21) My pleasure. As always, I look forward to our next one, Brian. Y 'all have a great week.

Join Brian for the 100th episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast as he dives into the future of Agile with fan favorites Scott Dunn and Lance Dacy. Listen in as they explore the evolving role of AI, the continuous need for leadership innovation, and the Agile community's journey towards greater accountability and effectiveness. Overview In the 100th episode, our expert panel celebrates by examining the latest trends and enduring challenges in the Agile industry. They discuss the critical need for organizations to adapt and innovate, particularly through leadership and management strategies that foster high-performing teams. This episode is a deep dive into how embracing change and technological advancement can propel the Agile industry forward, ensuring that organizations not only survive but thrive in an ever-evolving business landscape. Listen Now to Discover: [1:10] - Join Brian in a special celebration of the 100th episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, featuring a look forward to future innovations in Agile! [1:43] - Brian kicks off the landmark 100th episode with a forward-looking panel on Agile and Scrum's future, featuring experts Scott Dunn and Lance Dacy. [4:01] - Listen in as Brian asks the panel to share their insights on emerging trends within Agile and Scrum, setting the stage for a thought-provoking conversation. [4:15] - Lance highlights key trends including solutions for scaling challenges, the integration of AI in Scrum, and innovations in leadership and management. [6:54] - Scott emphasizes the enduring impact of Agile and Scrum in driving organizational enhancements. [11:36] - Lance underscores the critical need for leadership and management to adopt innovative approaches and acknowledge generational changes to effectively engage and support their teams. [13:30] - Addressing the provocative statement that 'Agile is dead,' Brian explores its implications on the real-world demand for Agile compared to its perceived necessity. [14:50] - Brian, along with Scott and Lance, urges the Agile community to recognize its shortcomings and learning experiences, which they believe may be contributing to negative perceptions of Agile, and how the community could approach it differently. [24:10] - Brian encourages you to try out Goat Bot, Mountain Goat software’s Scrum & Agile AI tool. This free tool is trained to handle all your Agile and Scrum queries—start asking your questions today! [25:58] - The panel explores the impact of AI on enhancing agility in organizational practices in estimating, development, and so much more. [32:20] - Brian stresses the importance of using AI as a tool to support, not supplant, discussing ways it can improve rather than replace human efforts. [43:23] - Brian shares a big thank you to Scott and Lance for joining him on the 100th episode of the show. [43:44] - Brian thanks you, the listeners, for your support and shares his excitement for the future of the show, inviting you to send us your feedback or share your great ideas for episodes of the show. Just send us an email. [44:57] - We invite you to like and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. [45:16] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, such as CSM, or CSPO, or Better User Stories Course. We also have Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner®, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes, you can find the schedule here. References and resources mentioned in the show: Scott Dunn Lance Dacy Goat Bot Certified ScrumMaster® Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner® Training Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Mike Cohn’s Better User Stories Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian (00:00) Agile Mentors, welcome. This is our 100th episode. Can you believe it? We've been doing this for 100 episodes now. So first, before we even get into today's episode, I just wanna say huge, huge thank you to you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for giving us feedback. Thank you for giving us suggestions. We would not have made it to 100 without you, so. Huge thanks to you. And to celebrate, we're trying to do something different here for the 100th and not just let it go by and not mark this occasion. So what I wanted to do was to have some of our regulars, our favorites on together so that we could really kind of look ahead. So let me introduce our panel for today. First of all, I've got Mr. Scott done with us. So Scott, welcome. Scott Dunn (01:00) Thank you, Brian. Glad to be here. This is awesome. Congratulations. That's so cool. Brian (01:04) That, thank you, thank you, thank you very much. And then another favorite that we have on quite frequently is Lance Dacey is with us as well. Lance Dacy (01:13) Hey Brian, congratulations once again. I remember us just talking about this when you were starting out with podcasts and you look at 100. You do this every week, right? Is it a, has it been a hundred weeks? Wow. Brian (01:22) Yeah. Yeah, we do this every week. We missed a couple. Our listeners probably know there's been a couple of times in there we've taken some small breaks around holidays and other things. But yeah, this is going on just about every week since then. Lance Dacy (01:38) Well, congratulations. That's amazing. Brian (01:40) Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I'm amazed and as I said, very, very grateful. And it really hit home to me when I went to my first conference after doing this and people would come up and say, hey, I listen. That was really a cool moment. And I always tell people, hey, I'm speaking to other conferences, come and say hi. Come and say hi to me this year. So as I said, I wanted to have a panel so that we could talk about, we've been... Scott Dunn (01:40) Amazing. Brian (02:10) doing this for 100 episodes and lots has changed, lots have changed over the past year and a half, almost two years now that we've been doing this. We kicked off on, I think it was May 18th, 2022. So we're coming up on two years of doing this. And my thought was, what's gonna happen over the next 100 episodes? Like, where are we gonna be in the next two years? Where are we gonna be in the next five years? What kind of things are changing? What are we going to think about stuff over that time period? So I wanted to have a panel to kind of comment and discuss this with us and Where I wanted to start is maybe not where I think most people are going to think I'm going to go But I want to start with kind of the agile industry kind of the way things are going now for Coaches consultants scrum masters product owners So I'm gonna throw this as an open question and whichever of you wants to go first, go first. But what do you think we're seeing right now? What kind of trends are you seeing in that realm? And where do you think it's gonna, where do you think it's going? Scott Dunn (03:26) I nominate Lance to go first. Lance Dacy (03:28) Okay, here, obviously they're thinking about Scott. It looks like he's got something to say. Okay, well, that's a tough question because I think it still depends on the industry and the organization. It's all made up of people still. So there's still a lot of variables, I think, that affect the way that we do our jobs as transition coaches or business agility coaches or agile coaches, whatever you wanna call us. I think... Brian (03:29) Hahaha Lance Dacy (03:59) You know, I think there's still plenty of organizations out there that are struggling to bring their people together to deliver great products. And it's not because they don't want to, it's just lacking the skills and the frameworks and things to do that. So I still think that there's some organizations out there that benefit from saying, hey, let's just start from what we know and start doing this and then adapt to it as it changes. But I think a lot of times organizations, I think scaling is one of those big. problem child out there that people have kind of learned how to do this with smaller teams and smaller parts of the organization, but getting the whole organization to collaborate together. And of course, they look to another framework for that. And I'm kind of framework agnostic, especially when it comes to scaling, because I think at the end of the day, if you can't do it well in the small environment, it's going to be very difficult to do it well in the large environment. So the best thing you can do is kind of analyze your own situation. with like value stream mappings and cross-functional teams and things like that, and try to make sure that you're organizing yourselves and preventing waste as much as possible, I think is one of the big things. But I've also seen a kind of an uptick in, of course, these practices in agile being distributed over non-software domains. We've seen that for a long time, that's not necessarily a new thing, but I think it's gravitating more. to that. But I think the biggest one is really what we're talking about today is how is this AI stuff or what we have been talking about, how is that affecting this? And I think it's here quicker than we really think, or already here. And so trying to figure out how to handle, you know, data driven decision making based on that and, you know, using these tools to integrate. And then I think the last one that I would talk about is leadership and management. I think There's a specific type of environment and culture required for these people to thrive and collaborate and leadership and management has not seen a lot of innovation in the last 150 years. So, I find myself spending a lot of time coaching executives and mid-level managers on how to foster an environment that we can know how we practice psychological safety, empowering people and making it a great place to work, especially in this remote distributed environment. So I don't know if it's... All that's fairly new, but I think it's more prevalent than it was in the past. So I don't know, Scott, go ahead. Scott Dunn (06:28) No, that's good stuff. And I've only got 35 points I want to walk through. So one, I think we had all agreed that this idea of agile seems to be the common experience we're seeing as we're still coaching out there in organizations. They think that they've already done that. That's in the past. What's next? Or they settled in like, we're just hybrid. And it's not a. So help us move forward. It's like, no, we weren't done that. Here's this other thing. But the other things they're needing. And I like it, Lance. You kind of mentioned a couple of other words that people use, like organizational improvement, organizational chiasm, these ideas, like, hey, we're trying to get better. And I almost rather use those words because if I use a word they think they know, then we've kind of lost the fact that, you know, we're there. It strikes me, it's a little bit like marketing. They're just like, nope, marketing's done. And now we're doing this. And like, no, marketing's always learning, moving forward, growing. And I think we're gonna see this idea they realize, like, oh. Agile wasn't like a destination we check the boxes now they're on Scrum team. So that's one thing we're continuing to see. And the reason I'm saying that is the problems are still the same problems. We're talking earlier about capacity management, visibility, clear, you know, can execs see where we are in these larger initiatives? And the answer is like, no, they're still not doing those well. That speaks to whole org. And two quick stories on that is one, we're working with a company that decided like, yes, we're going to take this whole org approach. Lance Dacy (07:27) Yeah. Scott Dunn (07:45) And once they, within a few months, they'd gone from cycle time of 100 days down to 10. They had tripled their productivity. They went from one release every two weeks to seven in a day, right? But that's because the whole org is represented as they're rolling out, actually holistically. Let's contract that with a company we're just talking to this week. I was trying to describe getting a group together, it's representatives across other departments who have people who have authority, who have influence, finances, et cetera. they could not grasp the idea that there'd be a team working on improvement items across the org. It took several explanations, like I'm not talking at the team level. I'm talking about the team that's working across the org level. And what part of this comes back to is I think of the idea of I'm a manager. This is my own like awakening recently. If I'm a manager, let's say I'm the software engineering manager, I'm the director, my concern, this is my mistake earlier, my concern is not, are we doing ads all right? My concern is, is my boss getting what they want? If my boss wants clear reporting on where we're at the features, I don't care if it's Agile, waterfall hybrid doesn't matter. Did you show me a nice pretty report that gives them what they need? That's what I, that's what I do not wanna be called into her office on Friday about, right? So I keep mistaken, like they wanna do Agile, right? No, they wanna check the box and what they're accountable for and meet those expectations. And I know the higher up the or we go, the less they probably understand about Agile. At least that's the surveys that I'm running is like a... a 20, 30, 50% gap between what these people say their managers think they understand about Agile and what the people actually do in the work know that they understand Agile or not, which is always a large gap. A good example of that is remote. I'm not trying to kick a dead horse when it's down or whatever the saying is, but we've talked about remote a lot, but here's what we're seeing is, I think the basis of a lot of this return to office is simply, I don't know my people are working or not, I just need to see them. Brian (09:30) Hahaha. Scott Dunn (09:41) I can't tell, and I can't see them, I can't tell, and I get nervous, which really means I don't really have an understanding of fundamental aspects of how work is done using transparency, inspect and adapt, all that, right? And because I can't really, I don't really have mastery over that, I'm gonna need you in the office at least three times a week. Because I don't, I'm not really watching the work anyways, but at least I know you're showing up, and I'm accountable to make sure people are busy and working. That's, you know, I draw it down to its most rudimentary level. To me, it's a reflection of the capability of management. You mentioned that, Lance, about leadership. I think we're starting to see Lance Dacy (09:41) Right. Brian (09:52) Yeah. Scott Dunn (10:11) What we probably will see is this real cutting line of those who get it and trust their people and they work. And we've seen, you know, 10X, 100X on, on experts really let loose to do their best work and those who are simply like, you know, managed in that traditional sense and all the drawbacks and your loss of talent, all that. I think the companies will have to pay the price eventually. Thinking back to the time when people didn't really want to go ad drug because they thought it was a fad. And it didn't take but a few years, like, um, I could be wrong. Brian (10:35) Yep. Scott Dunn (10:38) maybe that is a thing we need to do, right? And then everyone gets on board, but there was a lot of kicking and screaming and doubting the early years. I think we're gonna see that with remote work is made like the proving ground of do you really work this way or not as a manager? Do you get this or not? So those are some of the trends I see. I still see a lot of people still in the very fundamentals because they think these things are already understood and known and we're moving on to something next. There is no next. I think the pace of change out there is if you're not working this way as an organization, you're losing ground already. Like... while they're listening to the podcast. Lance Dacy (11:08) It's like the remote, you know, what you were just saying is like the remote is the automated test for your operating system at work is like, if it works like that, then we're likely doing some really good things. But you know, I remember, um, I'm going to show my age here though, but prior to my technology career, I worked at FedEx and I was in leadership and management, managing their third largest hub here in Fort Worth, Texas, uh, the air hub, you know, and FedEx did a great job teaching leadership and management and all that kind of stuff. Brian (11:08) Yeah. Scott Dunn (11:14) Thank you. Lance Dacy (11:36) And I remember them focusing on the idea that you cannot lead and manage people currently how you are going to in the future because they were talking about how the new generation is coming on board and they just won't tolerate certain things. And I think you hit it on the head with that, Scott, that if these managers don't learn how to lead and manage with this newer generation, two or three removed from what I'm talking about. you're not going to have any employees because they will not tolerate it. They do not work that way. They work radically different. You know, I'm going to categorize money as a gen X person. And I'm going to say we were taught to be very individualistic, climb the corporate ladder, you know, keep your pain to yourself, just grin and bear it, fight through it, do the best you can and be autonomous and don't rely on a lot of people. And, you know, don't trust anybody. You know, the latchkey kids, we just were independent. We learned how to do it all. And that's not necessarily bad. We needed to be managed a different way than these people now. I, and I've got four kids, so I see it. It's like, they're not going to tolerate this stuff. So you hit it on the head with that leadership. I mean, coverage, a broad spectrum, but, um, Mike gave a talk in Oh nine. I'll never forget this. When I first went to the scrum gathering in Orlando and Oh nine, and he was on a panel and he said it really succinctly. He said, I hope we don't call it agile or scrum anymore. It's just the way that we work. Brian (12:36) Yeah. Lance Dacy (12:54) And he was referencing object oriented programming. You know, he said, we don't call it object oriented programming anymore, it's just programming, you know, object one. And so it's like, yeah, we're not going to, let's not have this debate. We want to build the highest business value things as early as possible with the least amount of costs who can argue that that's not the right way to run an organization. So let's not debate it. Let's not use the buzzwords. Let's just do it. Brian (13:01) Right. Scott Dunn (13:12) Yes. Brian (13:18) Yeah, I agree. And it's, you know, kind of back to what Scott said, too, there is a marketing issue here, right? There is this kind of idea of people are so saturated with the terms that they've experienced them and they feel like, hey, I know that I know what that is, I don't need to be I don't need to learn any more about that. And now I'm just kind of moving forward when they don't really. And that's what drives all the people out there that are saying Agile is dead and all the Agile is dead speakers and all that stuff. It's not dead. And if you listen to them, they don't say it's dead. They just say, people don't understand what it is. And so they're doing it wrong. I think there's kind of this interesting dynamic going on. Right, because on one hand, I think we're at a time when Scott Dunn (13:54) Mm-hmm. Brian (14:03) businesses could benefit the most from doing things like Agile because they're gonna get the most with less by doing these kinds of approaches. However, at the same time, we're hearing stories of entire Agile departments being let go in different organizations. And we're seeing people who struggle after coming through classes and stuff finding work as a scrum master, even though there's a demand. There's high demand still for these kinds of things. So there's sort of this dichotomy that's going on of, I think there's a slump going on in the agile demand when the need for it is high. And maybe that's a marketing, right. Maybe that's a marketing thing that we haven't done a good job, but I wanna propose one other thing here and I wanna get your guys take on this. Lance Dacy (14:51) than ever. Brian (15:02) The people who say Agile is dead and they say that, we shouldn't be doing this because we should call it something else. Because no one understands what it is anymore. And that's why they say it's dead. I have generally thought of those, and I think many of us sometimes fault the leadership a little bit in this to say, they didn't invest enough to understand it. They didn't really support it, right? Kind of that mentality. But I think that as an Agile community, that we need to own up. Like, I think we just need to step forward and say, you know what, we have not always done it right. And there's been plenty, you know, I talked about this in the Scrum Master class. There's plenty of Scrum Masters out there who think that the job of being a Scrum Master is to schedule meetings. And that is it. And... Scott Dunn (15:55) Oh. Brian (15:58) You know, those people, you can understand why a company would say, I don't need that person. I don't need a person to do that. And then all of a sudden they're letting go all of their Scrum Masters because they think that's what a Scrum Master is. So I think we have to own up a little bit to say, we're partly responsible for this, right? We're partly responsible for the bad impression that Agile has and we just gotta own it and say, yes, that's true, but that's because we've made mistakes as well and we're learning. Lance Dacy (16:17) Thank you. Brian (16:28) And now we know better, right? Now we know what we're supposed to do. But the pretense that we maybe came into it with, saying, hey, we know everything and we know how to do this stuff, was what caused the downfall, I think. What do you think? Scott Dunn (16:32) Hmm. Lance Dacy (16:44) It's like the overlay though of saying here, here's how you do it, right? I think what we got wrong or not necessarily wrong, just we didn't know any better at the time is, I've worked with 20 companies and this way work, let's try it. And then if it doesn't work, we'll adapt it. Cause I think it's always been about that. But you know, just like any approach, you know, the effectiveness of that approach depends a lot on how it's implemented, supported, adapted, taught. And I feel like what we should just start focusing on, you know, it's hard to put this in one term, Maybe it's just like helping and facilitating the creation of high performing teams. Like that's an unarguable thing that you would want to have. What's happening is the organizations either whether they misunderstand the role or have a bad experience in the past with it because you can't say their experience is invalid, right? Everybody has their different experience and opinion and what they went through. And I acknowledge that. But if you think of any professional sports teams, what's happening in the organizations in this world? Brian (17:20) Yeah. Lance Dacy (17:43) is they're getting rid of the coach of the team. And what we have to do is start recognizing what does the coach really do is trying to make the team high performing. You know, in professional sports, it's to score points and win the game, right? Well, kind of trying to do the same thing here, you would never get rid of the coaching position saying, well, all they do is watch film and tell the team what they're doing wrong. No, I mean, Andy Reid, you know, the Kansas City Chiefs, they won the Super Bowl, arguably the best football team in the world, if that's what you're using as a bar. And... Scott Dunn (17:46) Thank you. Brian (17:55) No. Scott Dunn (18:03) Thank you. Lance Dacy (18:12) And so they've arrived, they're the best. Do we get rid of Andy Reid? No, they need him even more because they get complacent and they get this idea that we don't need to change anything. And I see plenty of teams like that. It's like, no, the coach has one of the hardest jobs in the world is to tell the best performing team in the world they can get better. And the organization sometimes is the wet blanket and suffocating the environment for which that team can perform. Scott Dunn (18:16) Thank you. Lance Dacy (18:37) And I feel like, you know, instead of whether you want to call it a scrum master and agile codes or whatever, it's almost hard to use those terms. Some of these people anymore, because they'll just sit there and argue with you about it, but let's just say I'm trying to coach a high performing team and how can you argue with that, you know? Brian (18:50) Yeah. Yeah, I don't think you can. Scott, what do you think? Scott Dunn (18:53) If I was to ask you, well, if I was to ask both of you, do traditional management, whoever's making hiring decisions, do they know what an agile coach is and what's in telling them that they're doing well or not? And I would argue the most don't. And I think that's why we see a lot of people, I mean, in the end, people follow the money. I don't call people for work and their own self-interest. So if I can just update my LinkedIn profile and change it to agile coach. and whoever interviews me can't tell a difference. And that means I get a salary bump and of course, or let's just tell it like it is. And I think your listeners, I know you to be good with this. If I can just take a two day class and I'm gonna get a 25% salary increase, whether or not I get it or not, let's not even go there. Like I passed the test, I've got the certification. And unfortunately, I think that's more the dynamics of any given market is like, oh, it jumps to the solution, right? I just, you know. hire these scrum masters and I've done the agile thing. And even though any of us would say like, that's much bigger than that, this agile coaching involved is much more than the two day class that you need, et cetera. But think about that. I'd look at the people that I've trained, which, you know, is thousands. How many companies actually came back and said, we need help as an agile coach? 20, 22 dozen, right? That we actually went in and did real transformation work. So that's them not asking. That's them like, no, we got it. I think that simplicity of understanding Do I take a solution or do I go through a mindset change? Well, taking the solutions is going to be easier. So I'm going to jump to that rather than like reflect, like, I think we need to change. Change is hard, we agree. So back to the point of like, are we to blame? I see some of that market dynamics, but we do that with diets. We do that with the career. Also Greg, we wouldn't just grab something easier than actually go through the change. So I do agree with you, but I think it's a good point. How we try to re-message that when the world already thinks I understand it. I think we're watching this happen. When I look at companies in that space, Brian (20:30) Yep. Scott Dunn (20:42) They are using different terms and phrases. I think that moves us away from, maybe that's an aspect of like, where to blame. The other interesting thing, Lance, you mentioned about the coach and we don't fire the coach. And I think that's the best example I go to is, look, I'm a business owner of a professional sports team. I'm watching the dollars and I don't wanna have to pay Andy Reid millions, but I know it gets results. And I don't wanna coach for the offensive line. I don't wanna coach for defensive, but the results are clear whether that works or not. Brian (21:03) Yeah. Scott Dunn (21:08) The other thing that's interesting is you watch some of these coaches, like when it changed in college football with name engine, name engine and likeness in terms of attracting students for different reasons. Like I can make money during college. I don't have to hope I make the pros. And how that changed the game significantly to where some coaches like, forget it. I don't want to play this game where they're now empowered to make their own decisions on where they want to go and not just sit on the bench. If I want to sit on the bench, the transfer portal. So you're watching dynamics play out on what does that mean to bring that change in? I do think in the end, there's probably a simple split on, there's an organization that needs to continuously improve and look for ways to do that. Not as one-off projects of, hey, let's do an improvement project here. But as a feeder backlog, but simply there's always ways to improve and stuff's always coming in and we're always working that as a layer of the way the organization runs. When I see a chief agility officer, some of these other roles, I think they get it. I think manufacturing systems get that with like lean thinking and like, That's just what we do. We're always looking for that. I don't think software engineering. And this organization get it. And to be honest, my friends, you can tell me if I'm off. I don't know if they got sold that truth of this is always going. It is not put all your engineers on the teams, hire a scrum master, change someone's title of product owner and you're good, right? But I think that's what they kind of thought it was. And then they're done, but that's a team level. It's not organization level and it just sits there. So I guess there is someone with the blame because maybe that's what they were taught and not the bigger picture as well. Brian (22:25) Yeah. Yeah. Scott Dunn (22:35) Perhaps. Lance Dacy (22:36) The rebranding is interesting the way you said that. I don't, you know, let's call it something other than Agilent or Scrum, whatever you were talking about. And that's what organizations do when things are broken, is they reorg. We're gonna just change the name of it. It's like following a diet plan and going, well, I don't like that it doesn't let me have sugar, so I'm just gonna call it something different. The constraint. Brian (22:48) Hmm. Yep, you're right. Scott Dunn (22:50) Yes, yes Lance Dacy (23:02) You know, the constraint is there to make you better. And I think that's what a lot of people don't get about, let's say the Scrum framework has a lot of constraints built in not to make it harder to do your work. And I will argue it's harder. Like I tell people all the time, this is a harder way to work. It's not an easier way because it requires all of us to come together. But you just said it so eloquently, Scott, I just thought about that, that they just, who cares what we call it. Brian (23:03) Yeah. Scott Dunn (23:16) Yes, for sure. Lance Dacy (23:26) the organization and the leadership is stuck by saying that at their level, all they gotta do is call it something different and now it's solved. All I gotta do is change the org chart on a spreadsheet. And I can't tell you how many organizations I work with where I'll get a note and say, well, we're going through a reorg right now, so we gotta hold off on this training or do this or do that. It's like, well, you just went through one, I've worked with companies that have been their coach for a very long time. It's like, how many of these are we gonna go through? What's the purpose? When are we going to start realizing that it's not who reports to who, it's who's doing the work and what's the environment and culture we've created for them. And I feel like leadership and management, I don't even care if it's software. Like Scott, you're saying software, we really don't get it. I'm not sure any company really, there's a few out there that I would say their leadership and management's working really well, but the operating system for the culture is broken. And, you know, we know that for a long time as agile coaches, but it's like, there's some benefits to be gained even while that's happening. Brian (23:54) Yeah. Lance Dacy (24:24) that we can get some efficiencies going here and they're still better off. But we've hit that next level, the problems are more complex now. People and it's leadership and it's hard to change those because they've been doing it for 150 years this way. You know? Scott Dunn (24:34) Yes. Brian (24:34) Yeah. Scott Dunn (24:40) Yes. Yeah. Brian (24:41) Yeah. Well, we can't leave the episode without talking about AI, at least a little bit, because I know you brought that up already. But yeah, we definitely need to think about AI in the future. And yeah, yeah. Because I know we talked about that a little bit when we were meeting here before we started to record. But just curious. Scott Dunn (24:46) Hahaha! Lance Dacy (24:52) leaders and managers. Scott Dunn (24:54) Yes. Brian (25:06) Where do you think that whole thing is going? What I should say is, how do you think it's going to affect agility? That's the big question. Lance Dacy (25:17) You want me to go again first, Scott, or is he going to flip flop? Scott Dunn (25:20) No, no, we're not flip-flopping. It's you, man. You got it. I'm not changing. Brian (25:23) Hahaha Lance Dacy (25:23) Okay. He has some reason to do this. You know, I feel like I'm walking into a trap here. Um, the way he's going to trap me. Um, well, and you know, we were kind of talking before we even, you know, started the podcast, but I was mentioning, you know, project management wise, you know, that I believe AI can bring a lot to just helping teams become more efficient and productive just at a superficial level by simply Scott Dunn (25:28) With pretty... Brian (25:29) No, that's a wrong answer, Lance. Lance Dacy (25:50) if we're talking about Scrum, let's say, because a lot of us practice Scrum and we teach it, you think about a sprint planning exercise and how often it's very difficult to just simply explain how to come up with your capacity for the next two weeks, and based on your skillset and the work needing to be done, are we sure and confident that the work we've committed in this next one, two, three, or four week period that we can actually get it done? as a cross-functional team within the constraint of getting something usable to the end user. I think a lot of people forget that as well. So I feel like automating things like sprint planning where you can feed in a profile of all of your different skill sets and their capacity. We no longer languish over this big spreadsheet that I used to use back 10, 12 years ago. There's a lot of better ways to do it nowadays, but I think eventually you just say, based on this team and what they've given me, here's how much work we can do. feed in the work and say here's the best sequence of the work. You know, the harder part is fitting, you know, utilization is not really a topic I want to get into because I think it's always misunderstood. But once you account for all of the slack time that you need to, you want to be as utilized as possible. I think using AI to help figure out what's the best path. Like I do an exercise in my class where I give them 10 backlog items and based on the different skills, capacity, and things that need to be done, what's the best fit? Right, so in data science, we talk about fitting the model. Why not use AI to help us be the best sequencing of the work with the highest value and the best way to use our capacity? So automatic task assignment, just like we do with calendars now, where people can feed in the work they need to do and it'll create the best calendar fit to maximize your workload. Automated code is coming, you know, we're already here. You know, automated. backlog creation, chat bots, AI driven testing. I think all of that is, if not here already around the corner, that's gonna affect, hopefully in a good way, the way that teams do that. Now, we can have a whole nother topic of how that affects product and marketing, because I think the biggest issue we have is getting closer to the user, and understanding and having empathy for them, because too often we get caught up in our own world that we're just... Brian (28:03) Yep. Lance Dacy (28:10) languishing through trying to get the work out. Well, why are we doing the work is the real reason and what's the best way we can get that work to the user that solves their problem. So I'll pause there. There's a hundred things I could go in. I had 35 bullet points. I have about 110, because I love this stuff, AI and data science and all that stuff. But Scott, I'd like to hear you had some good ideas in our pre-talk as well. Scott Dunn (28:14) Thank you. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you inviting me out to the Lance Dacey podcast. I just want to say thank you for that. Right when he drank his water too. Brian (28:37) Hahaha! Weird. Lance Dacy (28:44) Right. I can't respond. Let me take a scotch now that I can respond. Brian (28:46) Yeah. Scott Dunn (28:49) Yeah, he just needs to take a drink. He's ready to go. I know I love it. I love all the ideas in the Thoughtsland. So on my particular view, when we look at the companies we're helping, so we're Atlassian partners, so I'm watching what they're doing. And I mentioned about the fact that it can automatically do like acceptance criteria, you can ask. Anything about, take all the, what we used to call it, the tribal knowledge. It's gonna do that for you. I don't need to track down who's Lucy whomever. I'm just gonna ask it and it knows. I can say, give me a spreadsheet of the people involved with this. What's the background of this project? Any of that tribal knowledge is like, it's already there now. All that data sitting in Confluence, and Jira, et cetera, ability to create tickets. I'm not going and manually creating tickets anymore. I just say, create a ticket for this thing. So all those add up to lots of saving, time savings, all the manual stuff, anything that you just already know. And everyone hates making the tickets and doing so. it's going to take care of that stuff for you automatically. On the dev and engineering side, I'm seeing a lot around what seems to be promising, impossible, certainly code reviews, like there's a template of things that you know you're checking for in code reviews, readiness to go to production. Can it create these models and things? I think we'll wait to see. We're talking about the case tools, but I believe it will because it's not limitless on when we're creating basic applications. If you take your simplest thing like hello world, you know. or a basic screen that's only got five things or a login screen, there's only so many permutations what's gonna happen with that. And it can learn those things and do those things. Software engineering is your biggest cost for software companies, these engineers, and they're hard to find, and you got time zone issues and all these other things. Everyone's looking for ways to reduce cost right now. We've got issues of just getting the talent and the source, and you got parts of these engineers' work that they do not wanna be doing anyways. So I think you're gonna see a lot of those things put pressure on figuring that stuff out. But between the computing power that we're talking about, how much can be handled by those graphics chips and how much information is out there, I think you're gonna see real wins of measurable significance that's gonna be proven out and certainly driven by the business leaders themselves trying to find where can we reduce the cost with the promise of some of these things. But those are some that I've already seen. We're definitely watching, as I mentioned, Brian (30:43) Yeah. Scott Dunn (31:12) on the Scrum developer side, just saying like, what's happening out there? And just take a look and see what we can do. But you're gonna start finding the simpler solutions that are gonna be chipped away at first. I think about the self-driving cars. I remember thinking there's no way the car can handle all these, you know, what felt like limitless situations. It really isn't. There's only so many things happening on the roads and they have slowly learned to do that. I think it's gonna be the same on the engineering side as well. Brian (31:31) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree with both of you. I kind of think that I've taken a stance on it, like in the past, I just see it as a tool. It's a more advanced tool and it can do some things better than we can right now. There's some things that does really well and there's some things that right now it's not very good at. And I think it's important to try to understand that, right? I'm not gonna, you know. I think I've come to a place where I would never say, I don't think it could do X, Y, Z, because I think that eventually it can. I think that there's gonna be things it can do. And it's just a matter of time before it can do pretty much anything that we could be doing right now. Even right now, one of the things it's really, really bad at is having ideas. It doesn't really... Scott Dunn (32:10) Right. Brian (32:30) brainstorm or it can give you ways of, it can give you some little tidbits and things that you can build upon. But having used it to help try to write a blog post or anything like that, well, here's an experiment, right? Go to any, your favorite AI and ask it for 10 business ideas based on whatever, just, Uh... Lance Dacy (33:01) Of course it's not going to be good at that. Brian (33:03) Well, no, it'll give you, it'll give you 10. Scott Dunn (33:03) There's a creativity problem right there. We have a problem with creativity. I see it. Lance Dacy (33:07) I'm just kidding, bro. Brian (33:08) Yeah, it'll give you 10, but then go back and ask it and do a new chat, ask it again. Do a new chat, ask it a third time. Compare the answers you got across all three. And what you'll see is it's a lot of reused stuff, right? And the reason that it's recycling it, the reason it's reusing it is because this is a large language model. This is pulling from what it's been trained on, right? It doesn't invent a new thing itself. Lance Dacy (33:33) Mm-hmm. Create new you Brian (33:38) Right, now again, I'm not saying that it can't do that in the future, but what we have today is not a creative source in that way. It has to have the training data, even image, kind of AI image generators, that's built on what it's trained on. So you can't train it to a point to say, give me a picture of something that you haven't been trained on, right? weird picture that you have nothing in your database to go back to and use as a reference. It can't do that because it can't imagine, right? Yeah. Scott Dunn (34:18) Yes, that's the key. Lance Dacy (34:22) I was working with a company, they do ads, helping people come up with ads. So a lot of marketing spend money out there, right? You can tell it what kind of market you want to go into, what your competitors are doing, and very quickly feed it some images, feed it a few websites, and it'll give you 100 different ads with the words and everything you want to take on it, and already give it a conversion score. Like... Brian (34:44) Yeah. Lance Dacy (34:45) this ad should get this amount. And it was amazing to me, because I kind of struggle with that anyway, as a business owner, creatively coming up with content and ads and things like that. Like we were talking about earlier, I don't think on this podcast, but like being a co-pilot, having the AI stuff be a co-pilot where we kind of use it as a tool. I think eventually it'll be vice versa, ironically, where we'll be the co-pilots. I think... You like personalized user experience, creativity type things like, you know, how we do AB testing and stuff. Why not let AI do a lot of that user research and spin up the code very easily and figure out click patterns and things like that. Like I could say, I need nine different designs for this one screen. I mean, that used to take weeks, if not months for a designer to sit and attend, I'm not trying to bash their field. I love working with them. And. They're very creative people, but I feel like that's going to be the next step with this AI is, hey, give me nine options. And then that designer spends less time creatively. They get better ideas sometimes. Maybe some of them don't like that. I don't know. I'm not a creative person like that. But I can see that helping me in saying, hey, I don't have to hire these nine marketing people or five marketing people. I can just say, hey, let's look at those things. So I think that user, that creativity, Brian, is what you were hitting on imagining things. Brian (36:02) Yeah. Lance Dacy (36:03) Yeah, give it a lot of data can give you options and then you can take that and come up with the ideas as a human, but yeah, eventually that'll all be taken over too, I think it's all taken over the world. T1000, here we come. Brian (36:15) I think you've got to have one of the concepts that's out there is referring to these as agents and having multiple agents that will carry out a different task for you. And I really think that's when I think about the future of this kind of stuff and how this would affect a typical software development team, that's what I see. We have hierarchies in our organizations that exist. And those are essentially different layers of agents, right? Lance Dacy (36:23) Yeah. Brian (36:43) And I think that that's what we're going to see with software development teams and other things is we'll have a deployed network of agents and these, these AI agents will speak to each other and they'll, they'll refine what each other do. Uh, right. And it makes it easier for us, but again, we've got to have the idea to generate it, to start it, right? It just, it can't do that on its own right now. Lance Dacy (36:57) make it easier for us. Scott Dunn (37:03) Cheers. There's definitely a few things where I've just been popping in, where I had to do some legal docs and I just went there and had it write them. They were great. Just fill in the blanks. I was waiting to get content back from someone about a speaker, maybe somebody to go about Mark Kilby on remote and waiting and waiting. I'm like, dog gone. I just wouldn't ask, you know, chat GPT tell me about Mark Kilby, what he does and grab that. And it did a great job. Put that out there. I didn't need, I didn't need someone else to do it. I didn't need to wait for that. Brian (37:31) Yeah. Scott Dunn (37:34) And I don't even look for creative art anymore. I simply say, give me this art. I do it in Creative Cloud. Give me that, and then you know, good enough's good enough. I move, because it's like you're touching on the delays on some of the things that can be the killer of that. I think in the same way back in the day, Sudhnyalanshi said that you're dating yourself. And I remember when I was younger, we just had electricity for the first, I'm just kidding. But think about the first time when you're telling people like, no, the computer could do that for you. Lance Dacy (37:35) I'll see you later. Scott Dunn (38:02) I feel like we're becoming a lot of companies now like, no, AI could do that for you because they just don't know. If they're working a certain way and they've been in that company for 20 years, they think, no, my job is to create the new insurance for them and then send that, no, you don't have to do all that. So I think it'll be a redistribution because for all of us to see here right now and say, I've let go of thinking there's limits to this and that's where I've come to last few weeks. And we're, and we're. Lance Dacy (38:23) Yeah. Scott Dunn (38:26) Well, I'm going to, I feel, I feel we're cutting edge. Your audience may say differently, Brian, but I feel like we're cutting. I feel like we're cutting edge. And if we're just coming to realization, there's not limits. Think about your traditional worker who's not necessarily a knowledge worker, they're just in the office. They have a certain role. It's been not too different over the last 10, 20 years. They have no idea. I probably could cut that. You mentioned Lance about the ads and I was seeing something recently that said that those AI ads can cut, can cut the design time by 90%. Brian (38:31) Yeah Lance Dacy (38:46) Yeah. I would totally agree. I mean, I tried it and you just like you were saying, waiting on delays to me is my biggest thing. Like the best thing we can do for an organization is a value stream mapping of some sort and say, where does the cycle times killing us? There's so much low hanging fruit there that you could turn that into millions of dollars. And if we were just quit articulating words for that, let's just go do it. I feel like that's what AI is gonna do for us. We were talking about the, Mike's Brian (38:55) now. Lance Dacy (39:22) written a book on user stories and all that. So I'm going to use that as an example, as a product backlog entry point to getting work done. And I think we were talking about this before the podcast. And I feel like eventually we're just going to have a user say, as a user, I need to be able to pay by MasterCard on this screen and make sure the error message says this. And if it is successful, do that. And we won't need programmers. The computer will take that. And it'll write the code for that. It'll deploy the code and it'll say, what do you think about that? And so when you talk about this with agile, but I don't know what we're gonna have these, we're just gonna have users that can now have software created for them. Just like I can an ad, you know, it's like, I'm gonna have this design created, but I speak to it in natural language. Who cares if it's C++, COBOL or JavaScript or Python or whatever, it doesn't matter anymore. The computer will decide. and write it, deploy it, and manage it, and take all the complexity out of it. That's eventually where I think we're headed. Brian (40:23) OK, I just want to state this out there for all the listeners. Make sure you at the right person on this. It's Lance Dacey who said that all the programmers are losing their jobs. All right, just make sure you get it right. That's who said it. Uh. Lance Dacy (40:36) Oh my gosh. Scott Dunn (40:40) Here's to seeing you all again. Lance Dacy (40:41) Did I really say all? I just said it's going to be a disruptor. I thought, but you know, I'm sorry. So just like I think you like your next designers, I think software programmers are just highly creative and great people. So I mean, no, uh, you know, no, just be on the lookout, find a way to contribute to the fact that your job. Scott Dunn (40:45) I heard everyone within the year. I think that's what I heard. Brian (41:03) Yeah. No, I mean, all teasing aside, I think that the developers who are using it now within their IDEs and locked into some of these tools that are available to have AI help them with code, they're ahead of the game. And people who are afraid of that stuff and saying, no, I'm not going to keep that at arm's length, we've seen this movie a million times. Right. Scott Dunn (41:03) Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Lance Dacy (41:19) Yeah. Yeah, played out over and over. It's like, you know what, Brian, two weeks ago, I don't know what the time is, I'm just being facetious right now, but a while ago, I would say that not true about programs because I say you will always need somebody programming the computer, but I've since now changed my mind thinking because I'm highly agile and I learned in that space and I drink my own champagne. That's not really true because I can go into chat, you know, I took, I'm a programmer myself, so I mean, no disdain about that, I remember in school, the first program I had to write was C++ about calculating the Easter Sunday date for a given year. And I had to write code to do that. And I tested that with my son over my shoulder, saying, I'm going to show you what ChatGPT can do. I said, write me a C++ program that calculates Easter Sunday for a given year. And I swear to you, in under a minute, all the code was there. Now, it didn't run. I had to take it and put it into an IDE and compile it and do all that stuff. But it worked. And it took me months to do that. So all I'm trying to say is it can help us be better. The creative side will always be there, but can you imagine not having to worry about code anymore? And you do more of prompting the computer instead of coding. That's really what I mean. I don't want to say their jobs are going away. I just think their jobs are going to be changed. They're going to be the next disruptor, just like I was talking about real estate agents and banking and all of us have been disrupted. But we gotta welcome it. Take it. Brian (42:37) Yeah. Scott Dunn (42:40) Yes. Brian (42:49) Yep. Yeah, right. Welcome to the party, pal. Yeah, no, I agree. Lance Dacy (42:57) Right! Scott Dunn (42:59) I feel like saying at this point, we should let all the listeners know that actually this podcast is AI generated and these are not actual people here. Lance Dacy (43:07) I'm not really sure. Brian (43:10) Yeah, this was done with the approval of these three people, but written by written by AI agents. No, no, it's absolutely not. These are real human beings. Well, guys, this has been a really interesting discussion. And I know we've gone a little bit long. But hey, it's the hundredth episode. Come on, cut us some slack, right? We got three of us here. We obviously are going to kind of diverge a little bit. So Lance Dacy (43:15) Good. Brian (43:35) Thank you guys so much for coming on and helping us to celebrate this 100th episode. I really appreciate it. So just want, you know, Scott, thank you. Scott Dunn (43:45) Thank you. Brian (43:46) And Lance, thank you as well. Lance Dacy (43:48) I'm about to say Lance, no thanks. Thank you, Greg and Brian. I always love being on here and Scott, great to see you. It's been too long. Scott Dunn (43:49) Yeah. Hahaha. Good job. Brian (43:52) Right. Scott Dunn (43:56) These two, yes, really enjoyed it. Brian (43:57) Awesome.

Join Brian and his guest Lance Dacy as they dive into the trends and challenges awaiting the Agile community in 2024 and the importance of adapting Agile principles to the hyper-competitive world of product development. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to take a deep dive into the anticipated trends and challenges awaiting the Agile community in 2024. The duo explores the ongoing debate between remote and in-person work, the imperative need for innovation in leadership and management, and the intricacies of forward-thinking strategies as we work toward building organizations tailored for the future. Join Brian and Lance as they navigate the complex intersection of Agile principles, organizational leadership, and the ever-evolving landscape of the business world in 2024. Listen Now to Discover: [01:17] - Brian Milner has Lance Dacy on the show today for the traditional discussion of looking ahead at trends and upcoming developments in the Agile and Scrum space for 2024. [02:10] - Remote vs. in-person work—opening the discussion with this hot-button topic and the evolving debate. [03:31] - Lance offers his insights on organizations' adaptive strategies, what we learned during the pandemic, and the potential benefits and drawbacks of remote work. [05:58] - The loss of collaboration and learning when in a remote environment. [07:22] - The hybrid work solution. [07:36] - Brian shares a study favoring in-office productivity. [09:50] - Lance shares his personal work-at-home challenges and the importance of aligning work environments with individual personalities and preferences. [11:32] - The importance of accommodating individual preferences and working styles, and the need for organizations to match their environments to employees rather than requiring employees to adapt. [12:58] - The challenges faced by managers and leaders in making decisions about remote work, and the importance of flexibility in work hours. [15:20] - Brian raises concern about layoffs in the Agile area during tough economic times, questioning if it's the right strategy for long-term success. [16:23] - Lance emphasizes the need for understanding Agile rather than blindly applying it, suggesting the Agile industry may be bloated and encouraging a focus on culture and effective coaching. [17:23] - Mountain Goat Software, is the sponsor for this podcast. Whether you’re looking to get Certified ScrumMaster (CSM) or Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) training or want to take an Advanced Certified ScrumMaster (ACSM) class, click here to see what we have to offer. [19:33] - Leadership and management innovation—Brian and Lance discuss the need for organizations to prioritize human-centric management AND leadership innovation, citing Gary Hamel's concept of building organizations fit for the future. [23:25] - Lance discusses the devaluation of the human element in organizations. [24:31] - Brian and Lance share their insight into the devaluation of developers, and the need for discussion on the trajectory of Agile in the face of such challenges. [25:55] - Lance highlights the need to educate leaders and managers on the criticality of Agile budgeting alongside project management to align expectations. [27:40] - Lance addresses the challenge in achieving true Agility, and why coaches offer such a long-term ROI. [28:10] - The importance of educating leaders on the value of coaching, psychological safety, and the need for a neutral perspective in fostering organizational improvement. [29:15] - Brian predicts a continued emphasis on cost-cutting in 2024 due to economic uncertainty. [29:57] - Brian expresses his concern about the long-term negative impact of eliminating coaching roles. [31:34] - Lance anticipates a cultural shift that might make it difficult for companies to attract talent if they don’t embrace more human-focused values that empower individuals. [32:59] - Lance urges Agile coaches to adapt to a changing paradigm and discusses the challenge for leaders and managers to shed bureaucratic structures and implement an effective strategy for embracing these principles. [34:17] - Brian urges a reevaluation of Agile's focus, emphasizing transparency and adaptability over rigid structures and roles. [34:48] - Brian stresses Agile's strength in handling unexpected challenges and calls on Agilists to emphasize the fundamental principles to demonstrate Agile's value effectively. [35:40] - The need for new thought leaders in leadership, management, and organizational design to guide Agile practitioners in effectively leveraging data and scaling Agile practices. [36:30] - The importance of evolving beyond rigid practices to embrace Agile's adaptability. Lance uses the analogy of professional sports to illustrate the importance of adaptability, discipline, and rigor in responding to dynamic situations. [38:03] - Not doom and gloom but a chance for growth and adaptation—Brian expresses optimism and excitement for the upcoming year, seeing it as an opportunity for renewed focus and bringing value to organizations in the evolving world of product development. [40:20] - Brian extends his thanks to Lance Dacy for being on the show. And don’t forget to share your thoughts and ideas on upcoming trends in the Agile Mentors Community. [41:09] - Please send feedback and ideas for upcoming shows to podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com. And don’t forget to share and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. [41:14] - Happy New Year to everyone, Brian expresses excitement for the journey ahead in 2024, meeting more listeners at in-person events, and sharing more insights on future episodes of the Agile Mentors Podcast. References and resources mentioned in the show: #63: The Interplay Between Data Science and Agile with Lance Dacy #30: How to Get the Best Out of the New Year with Lance Dacy #76: Navigating Neurodiversity for High-Performing Teams with Susan Fitzell Humanocracy Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® #4: The Developer Role in Scrum with Sherman Gomberg DFW Scrum (Dallas, TX) | Meetup Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Join Brian and his guest Lance Dacy as they address the interplay (and the skepticism) of combining Agile and data science. Tune in as they explore the art of crafting Minimum Viable Products (MVPs) to create impactful and efficient solutions. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to delve into the nuances of aligning data science with the software development mold while dispelling the myths along the way. Listen in as Lance shares his wealth of experience and insights guiding listeners through the step-by-step process of building MVPs in data science projects and sharing how Agile principles seamlessly apply to both worlds. Listen Now to Discover: [01:13] - Brian introduces Lance Dacy on the Agile Mentors Podcast. Since listeners appreciated the previous data science and agile episode, Lance is here for Part Two, this time discussing how data science fits into the software development mold. [02:00] - Addressing the skepticism of combining agile and data science; Lance has both expertise and practical experience. [02:43] - Lance emphasizes that he understands the “naysayers” concerns but aims to help others comprehend the synergy. [03:05] - Waterfall might be better: sorting out the different perspectives on Agile development and data science. [04:45] - The importance of scoping and architecture in software development projects. [05:15] - Challenging the notion of perfectly defined objectives. [05:46] - Most software projects lack a completely predefined understanding. [06:39] - How Agile's empirical process and mindset of experimentation align with data science. [07:30] - Presenting a real-world MVP example combining business drivers and data science techniques. [08:04] - Clarifying what Agile is—a philosophy based on values, not a step-by-step process. [09:03] - The importance of sustainable pace and productivity in Agile. [10:10] - Introducing the concept of MVP and acknowledging the evolution of data science techniques. [11:00] - Discussing MVP in the context of data science, and aligning it with empirical approach. [11:38] - Highlighting the role of MVP in testing assumptions, mitigating risks, and user feedback. [12:00] - Exploring data science's practical relevance for consumers to forge a relatable discussion. [12:47] -Acknowledging familiarity with technology, uncertain about tactics. [13:00] - Highlighting how AI and data science are pervasive in everyday technology use. [13:29] - Examples of AI data science integration: search engines, online shopping recommendations, social media content, smart homes, and more. [14:42] - Introducing common uses of data science: customer segmentation and marketing techniques. [15:19] - Applying clustering techniques like K means for automated segmentation. [15:34] - Lance shares his paper on supply chain optimization, using an ant colony algorithm. [15:56] - The techniques and purpose of supply chain optimization. [16:23] - Exploring data science applications: collaborative filtering, matrix factorization, neural networks. [16:42] - Clarifying data scientists' approach: not a random process but based on problem-solving with models. [17:18] - Iterative development as a primary reason for MVP in data science. [17:57] - Using real-world performance data for model improvement. [18:21] - Risk mitigation as a critical aspect of MVP: linking risk mitigation to surviving challenges and learning from them. [19:51] - Starting with an MVP reduces risk by avoiding overly complex models without sufficient feedback. [20:19] - Setting stakeholder expectations with an MVP: providing tangible insight into data science trade-offs and early deliverables. [20:39] - Highlighting operational considerations of deploying and maintaining data models, addressing challenges in data pipelines, infrastructure, and monitoring. [22:17] - An MVP approach aligns with Agile principles for data science. [22:35] - Brian clarifies the misconception that MVP means sacrificing quality for speed. [23:30] - Lance agrees, addressing the misconception, and emphasizes MVP's importance in learning and improvement. [23:32] - Have you thought about training with Mountain Goat Software? With classes such as Mountain Goat Software, Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) developed by Mike Cohn, and team home software for better interactivity during classes you can’t go wrong. [24:00] - Brian suggests transitioning to walking through a model or example of creating an MVP. [24:07] -A tangible framework for mapping data science work to MVP steps, acknowledging the contextual nature of the process. [24:50] - Lance acknowledges the complexity of the steps, so they’ve been posted below under resources. [25:11] - The importance of problem definition and defining the scope of the MVP. [26:34] - The challenge of gathering and preprocessing data. [27:20] - Selecting a simple model that is easy to interpret and implement for faster training times, easier troubleshooting, and adherence to the principle of parsimony. [29:12] - Using feature engineering to select the most relevant features for the model. [29:33] - Choosing a manageable number of features for the model, rather than attempting to incorporate all available data and avoid overcomplicating or overfitting the model. [30:11] - Lance emphasizes the importance of selecting a simple model and conducting feature engineering based on the insights gained from that model. [30:36] - Training the chosen machine learning model using pre-processed data, typically by splitting the data into training and validation sets. [31:15] - The challenge of evaluating the model's performance and the importance of using the appropriate metrics. [31:34] - The goal: create a model that is good enough for gathering feedback that aligns with the concept of MVP. [31:53] - Lance describes the last step of building an MVP: deploying the MVP by integrating the model into a suitable platform or application. [32:26] - The importance of making the MVP accessible to end users. [33:00] - The crucial feedback loop for making improvements to the model and features, and refining, scaling, or reconsidering the approach. [34:09] - Why you might want to initially deploy a slightly higher-level model. [34:57] - The parallel between the steps of creating an MVP in data science and the principles of Agile. [35:18] - Brian adds that in data science, feedback not only comes from customers and users but also involves analyzing results and outcomes as a form of feedback to refine the model. [35:53] - The importance of relying on scientific expertise to analyze the results of the model and evaluate its accuracy and validity. [36:10] - In data science, the feedback loop also involves analyzing the outcomes and results, similar to the iterative process of receiving user feedback in software development. [37:00] - Lance draws parallels between software development and data science by comparing the process of building software features with the steps involved in creating an MVP for data science. [39:21] - Lance offers some practical examples, beginning with a recommendation system. [41:06] - The decision tree approach and its benefits for stakeholders. [43:00] - Lance talks about churn prediction to gradually incorporate more nuanced data. [43:55] - MVPs for chatbots and the benefits of starting with simple scripted responses in a chatbot MVP. [45:59] - Managing multiple projects. [46:24] - The effectiveness of using logistic regression and decision trees for MVPs. [47:00] - Lance emphasizes the importance of managing stakeholders' expectations. [47:53] - Lance discusses the need to consider the context when interpreting model performance metrics and involving stakeholders in these discussions. [49:16] - The importance of collaboration between data scientists and stakeholders for delivering valuable solutions. [50:11] - Lance draws a comparison between data science and software development in terms of the challenge of coordinating work across different specialized areas. [51:00] - Lance highlights the importance of feedback and iterative adjustments for success. [53:24] - Again, you can find Episode #54: Unlocking Agile's Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy, here. [53:48] - We’d love to hear your thoughts on this topic and your suggestions for future topics. Just email podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com. If you enjoyed the episode, the best way to support us is to share it with others and subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts. [55:00] - Don’t forget to check out the Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule, including, Certified Scrum Master (CSM) or a Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) and Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM) and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO) classes. I'd really love to see you in class! References and resources mentioned in the show: 6 Reasons Why I Think Agile Data Science Does Not Work | by Ilro Lee Why Data Science Doesn't Respond Well to Agile Methodologies Lance’s SMU Paper (Ant Colony Algorithm and Traveling Salesman Problem) #54: Unlocking Agile's Power in the World of Data Science with Lance Dacy Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Reasons for Quick MVP in Data Science are to support: Iterative Development Feedback Loop Risk Mitigation Setting Expectations Operational Considerations Steps of the MVP: Problem Definition Gather and Preprocess the Data Select a simple model Feature engineering Train the model Evaluate the model Deploy the MVP Collect Feedback Iterate Decision Time Examples of MVP in Data Science (Logistic regression and decision trees are often used as initial models due to their simplicity, interpretability, and relatively quick development time.) Recommendation Systems: Instead of building a complex recommendation engine, a company might start with a simple rule-based system (e.g., recommending the most popular items) to gauge user interest and system engagement. Churn Prediction: An MVP might involve creating a basic model based on a few key features (like usage frequency and customer complaints) to predict which customers might churn. Later versions can incorporate more nuanced data and sophisticated algorithms. Natural Language Processing (NLP): For a chatbot, the MVP might involve scripted responses or basic keyword matching. Once deployed, user interactions can inform the development of more advanced NLP capabilities Conclusion With Rapid MVP, context is crucial with regard to our general benchmarks (F1-Score, ROC-AUC, MAE, RMSE). You should strive to always consider the context of those benchmarks with the problem being solved. In some medical diagnostic tests, even an F1-score of 0.95 might not be good enough due to the severe consequences of false negatives or false positives. We also likely need to compare the model's performance metrics with a simple baseline (e.g., random classifier, mean prediction) to determine how much value the model is adding. Always align the model's performance with business objectives. Even a model with a high ROC-AUC might not be suitable if it doesn't meet the specific precision or recall targets set by the business. Isn’t it better to find ways to know that earlier than later? Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

In this episode of Agile Mentors, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to discuss integrating Agile and Scrum practices into the world of data science. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to discuss integrating Agile and Scrum practices in the world of data science. Tune in to gain insight into the importance of feedback, the stages of the SAS Enterprise Miner initiative, and how frameworks like OSEMN can enhance the data science process. Listen in to learn how to strike the right balance between technical knowledge and product ownership and why culture is crucial in successful Agile implementation within the data science domain. Listen Now to Discover: [01:16] - Brian introduces his guest Lance Dacy, referring to him as "our San Diego Zoo guy" and the topic of today's show using Agile or Scrum practices in a data science world. [02:27] - Lance shares his background in data science and how it fits into the world of Agile. [05:06] - The big reason so many people are against using Agile for data science and where the big rub is. [09:02] - Who cares if it’s Agile or not? Lance shares Jeff Salts's poll about data science and introduces CRISP-DM. [11:05] - The six steps of the cross-industry standard process for data mining. [14:18] - Adopting a Scrum-like approach and treating data science work as smaller phases makes it possible to classify and organize tasks effectively. [15:59] - Does anyone remember the Rational Unified Process? [17:57] - It’s up to you to come up with ideas—once you have them, here's how we get it done. [18:18] - In the world of data science, implementing frameworks like Scrum can lead to misconceptions and failures—the key lies in understanding the layers of data science, navigating the complexities of the work effectively, and making informed decisions. [23:06] - The vital importance of feedback. [23:45] - The stages of the SAS Enterprise Miner initiative. [27:25] Brian introduces the sponsor for the podcast, Mountain Goat Software, and their two-day Certified ScrumMaster Course that’s perfect for anyone who wants to understand Scrum and add value to any team. [28:23] - How the product owner fits in when discussing working with big data. [29:50] Lance introduces the OSEMN process and explains how to solve a problem like a data scientist. [30:47] - When it comes to the role of a product owner, the technical knowledge required depends on the nature of the product. [31:42] - While Scrum lacks explicit guidance on backlog construction, the OSEMN framework themes (obtain, scrub, explore, model, interpret) can be incorporated to align sprint goals with specific aspects of the data science process. [33:47] - The framework or the structure of how you carry it out is less important than the kind of agreement. [35:07] - It's a cultural rather than a process problem. Lance delves into the debate on applying Agile Scrum to research. [36:37] - A fundamental misunderstanding about daily scrums. [37:18] - None of us are smarter than all of us together. Agile and Scrum work well when you know how to solve the problem, and there's a relatively clear path to victory. [38:49] - Brian shares his biggest piece of advice to people considering this in the data science [39:28] - “Data science is just the work that we're trying to do, tailor your process for your team and your culture and always inspect and adapt to try to make it better.” [41:08] - If you have feedback for the show or topics for future episodes, email us by clicking here (if you have yet to get a response, send another one as something has gone wrong in the process). And don’t forget to subscribe to the “Agile Mentors” Podcast on Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. And if you are a data scientist or work in big data and found the information in this valuable, let one of your co-workers know about it. References and resources mentioned in the show: Data Science Process Alliance CRISP-DM OSEMN Scrum and Data Science Agile Mentors Blog Topic: Decision Science - What methodology fits best? Certified ScrumMaster Training and Scrum Certification Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is the SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Join Brian and his guest Lance Dacy as they explore the key differences, skill sets required, and the exciting opportunities in the roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner. Overview In this episode of the "Agile Mentors" podcast, Brian sits down with Lance Dacy to explore the dynamic roles of Scrum Master and Product Owner. They delve into the fundamental differences between these roles, highlighting the unique skill sets required for each. Lance shares his valuable insights and personal experiences, shedding light on the challenges and opportunities that arise in these pivotal positions. Whether you're considering a career in Agile or seeking to enhance your understanding of Scrum, listen in to this episode for practical advice and guidance for aspiring Scrum Masters and Product Owners and a deeper understanding of the crucial roles they play in driving successful projects and maximizing team productivity. Listen Now to Discover: [01:17] - Brian Milner has Lance Dacy on the show today to talk about a question emailed to the listener email address about the two different approaches to Scrum and which class would be a good fit for you, a Certified Scrum Master (CSM) or a Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO). [02:28] - Lance shares how he looks at the two different designations and what he looks at as the centerpiece of the process of Scrum. [03:24] - Things to consider when deciding whether the CSM or the CSPO is right for you. [04:34] - Where to start your Scrum journey as a beginner and when taking both the CSM and the Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO) classes might be beneficial. [05:28] - You don't have to be a Scrum Master to benefit from the CSM class. [05:54] - The dual focus of the Product Owner roles and the diminishment of Scrum roles. [06:45] - The challenge of combining these roles effectively. [07:54] - The goal is to be agile rather than just doing Scrum-Lance shares the importance of delivering value efficiently and early. Relegating the Scrum Master to facilitation and metrics tasks yields minimal ROI. [08:28] - Do you ever see the coach playing the game? [09:10] - Scrum is a tool - you have to know the tools, how to apply them, and, more importantly, how to use them for the appropriate case. [10:16] - The distinction between programmers (those who code) and developers (anyone working to produce the product) and a look back at the developer role in Scrum. [11:34] - What confuses most people about the different classes and roles. [12:28] - The importance (and top challenges teams face) of capacity planning, Sprint planning, and daily work management in Scrum teams. Lance shares why addressing these aspects is valuable for software and product teams, including marketing and infrastructure teams. [13:44] - The value of certifications as a standard and an advantage in certain situations, but it's like learning to drive - experience is crucial. [15:42] - The importance of learning the values, principles, and tools associated with Agile methodologies to engage in experimentation and gain practical experience, whether a CSM, CSPO, or CSV. [16:25] - How active involvement in user groups and communities (such as the DFW Scrum user group) provides valuable insights and career benefits, fostering collective knowledge sharing and continuous learning in Scrum (and beyond). [17:23] - Mountain Goat Software, the sponsor for this podcast, offers certified LIVE online Scrum classes, including Certified Scrum Master (CSM), Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO), Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM) and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO) classes. Book more than three weeks in advance for an early bird discount of $100. [18:38] - Lance shares the three characteristics of a great product owner. [19:28] - Advice for what you should do if you’re starting from scratch and aiming to become a product owner to gain exposure and valuable experience in the field. [21:28] - The likelihood of moving from Scrum Master to product owner rather than vice versa. [22:47] - The four requirements of becoming a Scrum Master requires strong facilitation, teaching, mentoring, and coaching skills, and the demands of being a product owner that makes it a higher barrier for entry. [23:52] - The focus of a Scrum Master vs. a product owner. [24:48] - It's like being the Zamboni for a hockey team—as a Scrum Master, you have the opportunity to work in diverse industries, ranging from space science and astrophysics to finance and software development, without being an expert in those domains. [26:34] - A safer environment for experimentation and growth without the high stakes of individual accountability. [26:58] - Brian shares the primary determining factor in deciding between product owner or Scrum master. [27:51] - In the movie-making industry, like in software teams, there are distinct roles and responsibilities. You can choose to define the problem, manage the process, or contribute to building the product—pick your door and start running (and if you don't like it, you can always switch). [29:06] Real knowledge comes from doing, BUT a class can get you started on the right foot to understanding how to do things and getting your hands dirty to cement further what you want to do. [30:26] - Lance shares how obtaining a CSM or CSPO certification is like earning a black belt in karate—it's a pathway that empowers you to explore. [33:24] - Still on the fence? Send us a note, and we'll gladly help you find your path. [33:40] - Check out the Mountain Goat's training schedule to attend a class with Lance or Brian. [34:01] - Exciting news! We have introduced an Agile Professional Directory to our Agile Mentors community. As a member, you can now sign up and claim your certifications, allowing you to showcase your expertise when interacting with others on the site. [34:35] - Don’t forget, Mountain Goat Software offers a range of classes, including Certified Scrum Master (CSM), Certified Scrum Product Owner (CSPO), Advanced Certified Scrum Master (ACSM), and Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner (ACSPO). We love having podcast listeners join our classes to explore further the topics discussed on the show (click here to subscribe). References and resources mentioned in the show: Certified Scrum Master Training and Scrum Certification Certified Scrum Product Owner Training Advanced Certified ScrumMaster® Advanced Certified Scrum Product Owner® #4: The Developer Role in Scrum with Sherman Gomberg DFW Scrum (Dallas, TX) | Meetup Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant's heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Join Lance Dacy and Brian Milner as they discuss how to get the best out of the new year. Overview Something about that turn of the calendar from December to January makes us want to dig into planning, goal setting, and change. In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Lance Dacy discuss how to get the best out of the new year. They’ll walk through why personal retrospectives are the key to determining where to look for change. From 30-day challenges to building relationships with others in the Agile community, to fostering a fertile learning culture, listen in for insight into what might work for you to accomplish the change you seek to make this year your best. Listen now to discover: [01:15] - Welcome to our first podcast of 2023. [01:55] - How opening up our calendars to a new year sets us up for planning new things. [03:17] - Lance walks us through the two types of leaders, the visionary and the executor. [04:13] - Brian shares the benefit of personal retrospectives. [07:15] - How 30-day challenges catapult us to success by breaking things down into smaller chunks. [10:56] - Lance shares why New Year’s resolutions set us up for failure. [12:35] - How to plan goals using backlogs and the cyclical nature of organizations. [13:09] - How to use cross-training to challenge team members to broaden their horizons in the new year. [13:09] - Why you need to think about your intentions when trying to influence up. [14:03] - Why do 30-day challenges work well to engage in a new task, project, or skill with an experimental mindset. [15:29] - Lance shares why it’s critical for Scrum Masters to help leadership and management formulate career plans to help grow the people in the organization. [16:33] - If you’re doing the same thing you did last year, you’re not Agile. [17:16] - How plugging into a community can help you maintain your focus for growth. [19:48] - Why being a Scrum Master and a lone wolf don’t mix. [22:36] - How networking can help you take your career to the next level. [24:10] - Why it pays to keep an open mind (even to that which you don’t agree with), so you don’t miss out on vital information that can change your trajectory. [26:07] - Growing as a Scrum Master and as a person. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Mentors Community Meetup #13: What Does Cross-Functional Really Mean? with Lance Dacy Mountain Goat Software Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Join Lance Dacy and Brian Milner as they discuss how to get the best out of the new year. Overview Something about that turn of the calendar from December to January makes us want to dig into planning, goal setting, and change. In this episode of the Agile Mentors podcast, Brian Milner and Lance Dacy discuss how to get the best out of the new year. They’ll walk through why personal retrospectives are the key to determining where to look for change. From 30-day challenges to building relationships with others in the Agile community, to fostering a fertile learning culture, listen in for insight into what might work for you to accomplish the change you seek to make this year your best. Listen now to discover: [01:15] - Welcome to our first podcast of 2023. [01:55] - How opening up our calendars to a new year sets us up for planning new things. [03:17] - Lance walks us through the two types of leaders, the visionary and the executor. [04:13] - Brian shares the benefit of personal retrospectives. [07:15] - How 30-day challenges catapult us to success by breaking things down into smaller chunks. [10:56] - Lance shares why New Year’s resolutions set us up for failure. [12:35] - How to plan goals using backlogs and the cyclical nature of organizations. [13:09] - How to use cross-training to challenge team members to broaden their horizons in the new year. [13:09] - Why you need to think about your intentions when trying to influence up. [14:03] - Why do 30-day challenges work well to engage in a new task, project, or skill with an experimental mindset. [15:29] - Lance shares why it’s critical for Scrum Masters to help leadership and management formulate career plans to help grow the people in the organization. [16:33] - If you’re doing the same thing you did last year, you’re not Agile. [17:16] - How plugging into a community can help you maintain your focus for growth. [19:48] - Why being a Scrum Master and a lone wolf don’t mix. [22:36] - How networking can help you take your career to the next level. [24:10] - Why it pays to keep an open mind (even to that which you don’t agree with), so you don’t miss out on vital information that can change your trajectory. [26:07] - Growing as a Scrum Master and as a person. References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Mentors Community Meetup #13: What Does Cross-Functional Really Mean? with Lance Dacy Mountain Goat Software Scrum Alliance Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast on Apple Podcasts Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we'd love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you'd like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Please share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode's presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away.

Lance Dacy joins Brian to dig into cross-functionality. Overview You will often hear people say that Scrum teams are cross-functional. But what do we mean when we say that? Are we talking about a jack of all trades but master of none? Do we want team members who can do anything? How does a cross-functional team actually work together and what should we do as agilists to support and nurture cross-functionality in our teams? Join as we discuss these and other aspects of cross-functional teams. Listen now to discover: 02:00 Lance tells us how he defines cross-functional teams 04:34 Brian compares cross-functional teams to the A-Team 08:58 Lance talks about generalists vs specialists 12:39 Brian talks about T-shaped individuals 18:05 Brian discusses the Equity Couch 24:10 Brian describes the Market of Skills tool 27:45 Lance talks about personality profiles 29:20 Brian asks Lance about how to handle cross-functionality on specialist teams Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Scott Dunn joins us again to discuss the term ‘product-centric.’ References and resources mentioned in the show The A-Team Market of Skills by Lyssa Adkins OSEMN Process What does Scrum mean by Cross-functional? Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ● Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ● Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Lance Dacy joins Brian to dig into cross-functionality. Overview You will often hear people say that Scrum teams are cross-functional. But what do we mean when we say that? Are we talking about a jack of all trades but master of none? Do we want team members who can do anything? How does a cross-functional team actually work together and what should we do as agilists to support and nurture cross-functionality in our teams? Join as we discuss these and other aspects of cross-functional teams. Listen now to discover: 02:00 Lance tells us how he defines cross-functional teams 04:34 Brian compares cross-functional teams to the A-Team 08:58 Lance talks about generalists vs specialists 12:39 Brian talks about T-shaped individuals 18:05 Brian discusses the Equity Couch 24:10 Brian describes the Market of Skills tool 27:45 Lance talks about personality profiles 29:20 Brian asks Lance about how to handle cross-functionality on specialist teams Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… Scott Dunn joins us again to discuss the term ‘product-centric.’ References and resources mentioned in the show The A-Team Market of Skills by Lyssa Adkins OSEMN Process What does Scrum mean by Cross-functional? Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. ● Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. ● Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance Dacy is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Join Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy to look at the key capabilities of the product owner, mistakes to avoid, and getting maximum business value from the resources available. In this episode, Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy take a detailed look at the role of the product owner. They discuss a common source of confusion about what a product owner is, or does: people try to boil down the role to its tactical processes—such as writing user stories. The product owner may be accountable for these processes, but providing direction for what the team is trying to accomplish is their forte. Product owners need to be great communicators and collaborators, with passion for solving problems with their product. Brian and Lance share their experiences of what makes a great product owner, the importance of protecting a team’s capacity, and why saying no is often essential to protecting the vision. Listen now to discover: 04:10 - What’s the difference between a product owner and a product manager? 07:25 - Henrick Kniberg’s criteria for successful product owners 08:57 - Why Scrum Masters focus on the how and product owners focus on the why 09:05 - What does ‘being passionate’ mean to a product owner? 12:48 - The mistake of trying to be too productive as a product owner 19:46 - Can you combine other roles with that of the product owner? 25:55 - What should you find out about a company before accepting a job offer as a product owner? 34:49 - Why one of the most important things you can do is act as a steward of the team’s capacity Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… A special bonus episode with details about Brian’s talks at the upcoming Scrum Gathering on June 6-8 References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell - Henrick Kniberg Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Join Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy to look at the key capabilities of the product owner, mistakes to avoid, and getting maximum business value from the resources available. In this episode, Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy take a detailed look at the role of the product owner. They discuss a common source of confusion about what a product owner is, or does: people try to boil down the role to its tactical processes—such as writing user stories. The product owner may be accountable for these processes, but providing direction for what the team is trying to accomplish is their forte. Product owners need to be great communicators and collaborators, with passion for solving problems with their product. Brian and Lance share their experiences of what makes a great product owner, the importance of protecting a team’s capacity, and why saying no is often essential to protecting the vision. Listen now to discover: 04:10 - What’s the difference between a product owner and a product manager? 07:25 - Henrick Kniberg’s criteria for successful product owners 08:57 - Why Scrum Masters focus on the how and product owners focus on the why 09:05 - What does ‘being passionate’ mean to a product owner? 12:48 - The mistake of trying to be too productive as a product owner 19:46 - Can you combine other roles with that of the product owner? 25:55 - What should you find out about a company before accepting a job offer as a product owner? 34:49 - Why one of the most important things you can do is act as a steward of the team’s capacity Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… A special bonus episode with details about Brian’s talks at the upcoming Scrum Gathering on June 6-8 References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell - Henrick Kniberg Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Join Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy to look at the key capabilities of the product owner, mistakes to avoid, and getting maximum business value from the resources available. In this episode, Brian Milner and guest co-host Lance Dacy take a detailed look at the role of the product owner. They discuss a common source of confusion about what a product owner is, or does: people try to boil down the role to its tactical processes—such as writing user stories. The product owner may be accountable for these processes, but providing direction for what the team is trying to accomplish is their forte. Product owners need to be great communicators and collaborators, with passion for solving problems with their product. Brian and Lance share their experiences of what makes a great product owner, the importance of protecting a team’s capacity, and why saying no is often essential to protecting the vision. Listen now to discover: 04:10 - What’s the difference between a product owner and a product manager? 07:25 - Henrick Kniberg’s criteria for successful product owners 08:57 - Why Scrum Masters focus on the how and product owners focus on the why 09:05 - What does ‘being passionate’ mean to a product owner? 12:48 - The mistake of trying to be too productive as a product owner 19:46 - Can you combine other roles with that of the product owner? 25:55 - What should you find out about a company before accepting a job offer as a product owner? 34:49 - Why one of the most important things you can do is act as a steward of the team’s capacity Listen next time when we’ll be discussing… A special bonus episode with details about Brian’s talks at the upcoming Scrum Gathering on June 6-8 References and resources mentioned in the show Agile Product Ownership in a Nutshell - Henrick Kniberg Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He’s passionate about making a difference in people’s day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Lance is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®. Lance brings a great personality and servant heart to his workshops. He loves seeing people walk away with tangible and practical things they can do with their teams straight away. Show edited by Rhett Gill.

Vitor Massari é Sócio-Diretor e um dos principais consultores e especialistas em Agile/Lean da Hiflex Consultoria, possui mais de 20 anos de experiência em projetos de inovação. Atualmente ajuda organizações de pequeno,médio e grande porte a darem passos rumo à agilidade. Detentor de mais de 20 certificações internacionais especializadas no tema como PMI-ACP, Certified Scrum Professional, Professional Scrum Master III, SAF e Agilist, DevOps Master, PRINCE2 Agile, entre outras. Agilista, gerente de projetos, colunista, blogueiro, instrutor e anárquico, acredita no equilíbrio entre as várias metodologias, frameworks e boas práticas voltadas para gestão de projetos e que os gestores precisam encontrar esse equilíbrio, muito mais do que seguir cegamente modelos predeterminados.

When COVID-19 first entered the U.S., a wave of racist rhetoric and action came against Asian Americans. No corner of society was free from its touch, nor have they been from the beginning -- including the church. Guest Teresa Kwon talks about her experiences in corporate America, ministry, nonprofits, and local churches as an Asian American and how we as believers can begin to combat the racism within ourselves beneath the surface.Teresa is a high-impact leadership speaker, strategist, coach, and Founder of Daringly Great Leadership. Her mission is to raise up the next generation of wholehearted daring leaders and disrupters who will radically transform culture and reset broken systems. She teaches and advises how to lead using integrated leadership practices that are ethical, values-centered, and powerful.She combines deep intuitive sense with her 26 years of experience working with and alongside powerhouse leaders of tech startups, small and large businesses, faith-based organizations, as well as reputable CEOs and nonprofit executives at places such as The Smithsonian, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and the UN.Teresa holds a Master in Public Administration with a specialization in Strategic Nonprofit Leadership & Management from the Henry W. Bloch School of Business Management and is Certified Scrum Professional, Certified in Fundraising, and a PMP.Teresa, is a native Texan, proud Longhorn and Austinite, and true to her enneagram 7, is an avid dreamer, globetrotter, foodie, philanthropist, bookworm, and nature lover. She is married to her rock and Sushi Chef hubby and is fur-mom to an adorable toy poodle named Blackjack. They were last spotted paragliding through the Alps just before enjoying a lavish Afternoon Tea in London.Website and Social Media Linksdaringlygreat.cominstagram.com/daringlygreatleadershipfacebook.com/daringlygreatpinterest.com/daringlygreatyoutube.com/daringlygreat

Teresa Kwon is an award-winning high-impact leadership coach and Growth strategist and Founder of Daringly Great Leadership. She is a growth catalyst for purpose-driven leaders and change-makers who are making big and bold moves to change the world through their businesses and organizations without sacrificing their values or family and freedom-first lifestyles. Teresa’s mission is to redefine leadership for a new generation by raising-up a host of transformational leaders and cultural architects who will re-shape and heal a broken world to be whole and better for the generations to follow. She combines her love for social justice with her 25 years of global corporate experience working with and alongside leaders of purpose-driven small business owners to global tech startups such as WP Engine and Atlassian, as well as reputable Fortune 500 and global organizations like the Republic of Korea Ministry of Foreign Affairs, The University of Texas at Austin, The Smithsonian Institution, and the UN to powerfully align and equip organizations with high-performing lion-hearted leaders through cutting-edge blended learning and development modes and methodologies. Teresa holds a Master in Public Administration with a specialization in Nonprofit Leadership & Management from the Henry W. Bloch School of Business Management and is Certified Scrum Professional, Certified in Fundraising, and a PMP. She continues to devote her life’s work to amplify the impact of world changers to bring shalom to the global community for generations to come.Key Takeaways: Start with the problem and then the why.WHERE TO FIND TeresaWebsite | Facebook | Instagram WANT TO START A PODCAST?Grab a copy of my Jump Start Your Podcast Guide. Start podcasting with little to no money TODAY! https://bit.ly/jump-csdorsey

This week on the podcast, Dan Neumann is joined by his collaborator Sam Falco and special guest, Michael McGreevy! Michael is an Enterprise Agile Coach at Grow Financial and is a Certified Scrum Professional, Agile Leader, and Scrum@Scale Practitioner.   A couple of episodes back, Christy Erbeck shared some of her beliefs and understanding around the scaled Agile framework, SAFe. That fascinating conversation led hosts Dan and Sam along a journey to discovering other scaling frameworks. So, in today’s episode, they’re continuing their conversation around scaling and taking a look at Scrum@Scale! Michael explains some of the basics of Scrum@Scale and shares his own experiences with the framework, Agility, and scaling in general within his professional work at Grow Financial.   Key Takeaways Challenges Around Scaling: It is unique to every organization Too prescriptive of a framework can become its own impediment How these challenges can be addressed: You don’t have to use all of a framework; just what is necessary Benefits to Scrum@Scale/Why Grow Financial is using elements of the Scrum@Scale framework: It brings their teams together to get things done more effectively Helps to create transparency throughout the organization It is more simple than other frameworks It introduces concepts for people who might not know how to start scaling Creates complete alignment between all teams Supports information flowing both ways (from the “lowest” teams under the development scale all the way up to the enterprise team) It also supports information flow laterally (i.e. between the software teams and marketing teams) There’s ambiguity with the framework so success can be determined by the teams and enterprise More visibility into what all teams are doing and how it impacts other teams Creates more transparency (which is key in transformation as it helps to not let any teams lag behind) Possible challenges with Scrum@Scale: Because the framework is so simple it is somewhat vague and difficult to get right; there isn’t a clear path to success You need to make sure that everyone in the organization is on board and understands it Michael’s advice on scaling: Don’t get too prescriptive with any one framework — give it a try but be willing to adjust aspects of it or be okay with moving on to trying something else   NEW SEGMENT! Listener Q&A: Q: Janis, a Scrum Master at Fidel (a growing fintech startup from the UK), describes how their company is currently in a fast-growth and global expansion phase where they’re expanding from a single agile team to multiple teams. They ask Dan and Sam to talk about the dilemma of letting the devs do code reviews for other teams vs. keeping code reviews inside the team.   A: It’s good that Janis is interested in making sure that the knowledge of the codebase remains strong across the team and that the knowledge does not get fragmented and siloed. However, there are more than two options to explore. Here are some other ways for Janis to have a richer conversation with their team about how they might foster shared knowledge amongst team members as their teams grow: Pairing, Promiscuous Pairing, Mob Programming, Team Reviews/Inspection/Walkthroughs, and Unit Test Automation.   If you have a question you would like to send in, email Podcast@AgileThought.com or tweet using the hashtag #AgileThoughtPodcast!   Mentioned in this Episode: Michael McGreevy Grow Financial Agile Coaches’ Corner Ep. 61: “Christy Erbeck Busts Myths About the Scaled Agile Framework (SAFe)” Scrum@Scale Scrum of ScrumsScaled Agile Framework (SAFe) Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High, by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, Ron McMillan, and Al Switzler Agile Coaches’ Corner Ep. 45: “The Benefits of Mob Programming with Chris Lucian”   Michael McGreevy’s Book Pick: The Age of Agile: How Smart Companies Are Transforming the Way Work Gets Done, by Stephen Denning   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!

In today's episode I'm talking to my friend Teresa Kwon, of Daringly Great Leadership about how to step into a leadership role as the CEO of your business and how to lead your team to success.   Highlights:    What it means to be a leader in the online marketing industry Who your first hire should be as an online entrepreneur Why entrepreneurs are struggling in hiring the right people for the teams and what to do instead What entrepreneurs can do to better lead their teams   Links and Resources Mentioned in this Episode:    Get in Touch With Teresa Kwon   Website | daringlygreat.com/hiring-roadmap https://daringlygreat.kartra.com/page/hiring-roadmap Instagram | instagram.com/daringlygreatleadership https://www.instagram.com/daringlygreatleadership/ Facebook | facebook.com/daringlygreat https://www.facebook.com/daringlygreat Pinterest | pinterest.com/daringlygreat https://www.pinterest.com/daringlygreat/     About Teresa   Teresa hails from the taco-lovin’ Austin, Texas where she is a high-impact leadership speaker, strategist, coach, and Founder of Daringly Great Leadership  For 25 years she has helped leaders of startups, businesses, and reputable organizations build and scale with aligned and high-performing teams. Teresa holds a Master in Public Administration with a specialization in Nonprofit Leadership & Management from the Henry W. Bloch School of Business Management and is Certified Scrum Professional, Certified in Fundraising, and a PMP. Teresa is an avid globetrotter, foodie, philanthropist, bookworm, and nature lover. She is married to a her rock and Sushi Chef and is fur-mom to an adorable toy poodle named Blackjack. They were last spotted wandering the Warner Bros. Harry Potter Studios outside London after conquering the GOT glacier in Iceland.

Everybody has their own ideal version of what a great leader is. We look up to leaders, put them on a pedestal, and try our best to be like them, but have you ever asked yourself, "how do I become the kind of leader I would follow"? In this episode, Teresa and I talk about transformational leadership and self-leadership, and how these concepts can guide you in becoming the kind of leader YOU would follow. Episode Summary: Teresa is very passionate about guiding purpose-driven entrepreneurs as they scale their businesses by helping them unlock the power of team.  What lights Teresa up is witnessing the "aha's" happen! She's always excited to watch people step further into their purpose and make their dreams come true.  Teresa shares her personal journey and catalyst moment that led her to build her own online business and leverage her experience in order to help people who want to make an impact in the world. Learn how you can identify the "lights" in your life. This episode makes you reflect on the people who touched your life and how they influenced you in and out of the workplace. Teresa discusses transactional vs. transformational leadership and how the latter will inspire you to invest your time and heart to your team as a leader.  I share my personal experience about leadership and we chat about how language and communication affects our self-image as a leader. "When you open your heart, that's an investment of YOU - your energy, your awareness, your love, your care, your time. So when you look at it that way, it's so much more than just dollars for hours." - Teresa Kwon #scaletoseven "By the end of the day, you know what your leadership is like. The kind of leader that you want to follow is the very kind of leader you can be." - Teresa Kwon #scaletoseven About The Guest: Teresa hails from the taco-lovin' Austin, Texas where she is a high-impact leadership speaker, strategist, coach, and CEO of Daringly Great Leadership. For 25 years she has helped leaders of startups, businesses, and reputable organizations build and scale with aligned and high-performing teams. Teresa holds a Master in Public Administration with a specialization in Strategic Leadership & Management from the Henry W. Bloch School of Business Management and is a Certified Scrum Professional, Certified in Fundraising, and a PMP. Teresa is an avid globetrotter, foodie, philanthropist, bookworm, and nature lover. She is married to her rock and Sushi Chef and is fur-mom to an adorable toy poodle named Blackjack. They were last spotted wandering the Warner Bros. Harry Potter Studios outside London after conquering the GOT glacier in Iceland. Where to Find Teresa Online Website Facebook Instagram Pinterest Let's Connect See all that Kathryn has to offer at kathrynbinkley.com Connect more with Kathryn on Instagram! Listen + Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher!  We'd greatly appreciate a podcast rating and review so we can reach more entrepreneurs like you! Search for the podcast in your podcast app (Scale to Seven®) Scroll down and click 5 stars Tap “Write a Review” & enter a brief review Press send

Joining Dan Naumann today is AgileThought colleague and return guest, Sam Falco! Sam is an Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Professional with an extensive background leading Agile development teams.   Today they’re discussing under-promising and over-delivering: the what-not-to-dos for Scrum teams, their leaders, and the business they work for. Every now and then when Sam is teaching Scrum or coaching people on sprint planning he’ll say, “Select what you think you can do.” However, a lot of beginning Scrum teams will bite off more than they can chew because they’re way too optimistic. He often cautions to dial it back and then will hear the phrase in return, “Oh, we get it! Under-promise and over-deliver.” But that is as much of a lie as, “Sure, we can get that done,” and then not delivering. Businesses pick up on this dishonesty and it creates a tumultuous relationship between the development team, the leadership, and the business.   Tune in to get Sam’s key insights on how to build trust between the team and the business, the to-dos and not-to-dos for scrum teams and leadership, his cautions for new scrum teams and leaders, and his advice and actionable steps for building a healthy relationship between the team, the leader, and the business!   Key Takeaways “Under-promising and over-delivering” and other unhealthy Scrum team mentalities perpetrated through the team or through the leadership: When the business fears that the team is under-committing or sandbagging the estimates they’ll create stretch goals for the team (which are often unhelpful) Theory X: The belief that people will not perform unless you force them to do so; that workers are lazy so you have to put systems in place to keep them working If the leader is making crazy demands, the team is going to end up overcommitting or sandbagging What healthy Scrum teams and leadership looks like: Theory Y: Assembling together the people who want to help you accomplish your goals, give them the barometers, and then letting them do it They have an established sprint goal There is collaboration between the development team and the product owner The product owner and development team are collaborating to come up with product backlog items that are aligned with the sprint goal The leader or business does not drive the team as hard as they can to get as much as they can (which can lead to sandbagging) Sam’s cautions to new Scrum teams and leaders: New Scrum teams need time to learn what they can do New Scrum teams tend to overcommit and add way more than they actually can do Dial it back a notch as a team — you can always add something later if you find you go through something too fast Sam’s principles for successful teams: Technical excellence enhances agility (if you are always providing a done increment, you are always in a position to release and always in a position to pivot or change direction) A professional Scrum team that really observes Agile principles and values will be the most successful at knowing exactly what they can accomplish and being able to deliver on it Actionable steps for building a healthy relationship between the team, the leader, and the business: Realistically forecast what you know you can deliver If you are on a development team and you’re using Scrum, give honest estimates and have the courage to say, ‘No, we will not commit to doing more than we can do.” Follow the three pillars of Scrum: transparency, inspection, and adaptation Establish a sprint goal that is meaningful between the business and the technology team Do enough planning during the sprint planning to build a credible forecast The business should be asking for the ‘what’ that they want, and as the technology team, give them some alternatives as to ‘how,’ then collaborate together to figure out the best option Have a well-established definition of ‘done’ that everybody understands, agrees to, and adheres to Never sacrifice your quality goals Use the ‘fist to five’ to vote on how confident the team feels on accomplishing a set goal As you go through the sprint, be honest with where you’re at In sprint review, discuss how problems were solved as well as the difficulties that were encountered (because stakeholders need to know that this is not magic) If you did not deliver, that should be the subject of your sprint retrospective   Mentioned in this Episode: The Agile Manifesto Three Pillars of Scrum Fist to Five   Sam Falco’s Book Pick: Bad Blood: Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup, by John Carreyrou   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!

What does it mean to be done in Scrum? This is something that gets overlooked frequently. The Scrum guide says that the heart of Scrum is a sprint — a timebox of one month or less, during which a done, useable, and potentially releasable product increment is created. So for something to be done means it’s either in production or it’s ready to go to production without any further work. And especially with new Scrum teams, this can be a major hurdle. It can seem like too much to ask.   Joining Dan Naumann today is AgileThought colleague and return guest, Sam Falco! Sam is an Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Professional with an extensive background leading Agile development teams. And today they’re highlighting exactly what it means to be ‘done in Scrum,’ why you should care about the definition of ‘done,’ how to go about shaping your team’s definition of ‘done,’ how to reach ‘done,’ and what you can do as a new Scrum team to overcome the hurdle of what ‘done’ is.   Key Takeaways What does it mean to be done in Scrum? According to the Scrum guide, it means: during a sprint a useable and potentially releasable product increment is created (meaning it is either in production or ready to go to production without any further work) This definition of ‘done’ applies to the increment you’re creating each sprint Everything has to be working and working together What can you do as a new Scrum team to overcome the hurdle of what ‘done’ is? Make sure your items are broken down small enough Make sure an increment is doable Remember that it’s better to deliver a small piece of value than a bunch of stories or backlog items that are not ready How to reach ‘done’: Work together toward a common increment Build a strong enough sprint goal that is aimed at creating a solid product increment Do integration testing “If it hurts to release, do it more often” Consider: what can you do to automate it and make it easier to release? If, as a team, you feel your sprint is too short, consider the possibility that you’re perhaps trying to do too much Identify undone work in the increment Use the retrospective to frequently inspect your team’s definition of ‘done’ Sam’s tips for how to go about shaping your Scrum team’s definition of ‘done’: The team should create it with the product owner Brainstorm as a team by considering the question: what does it mean to get work into production? Align with your company’s developmental standards if they exist There has to be a common definition that everyone agrees to and adheres to Why should someone care about the definition of ‘done’? Builds trust between business and IT Helps the team manage batch sizes by helping them to determine what they can do in a sprint Helps the Scrum team be clear to the business about what they’re going to receive Helps you minimize technical debt Continual attention to technical excellence enhances agility Key takeaways around the concept of ‘done’: Start with what you know that you need to do to get to ‘done’ Don’t obsess about having the perfect definition of ‘done’ (especially if you’re a beginning team) Make sure that you have useful guidelines that will help you communicate what is ‘done’ Remember that this can eliminate the cost of technical debt and make your organization more nimble   Mentioned in this Episode: The Nexus Scaling Framework Agile Coaches’ Corner Ep.33: “Nimble Facilitation with Rebecca Sutherns, PhD” Nimble: A Coaching Guide for Responsive Facilitation, by Rebecca Sutherns   Sam Falco’s Book Pick: The Enterprise and Scrum, by Ken Schwaber   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!

Joining Dan Neumann today is return guest — and his colleague at AgileThought — Sam Falco! Sam is an Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Professional with an extensive background leading Agile development teams.   In today’s episode, they will be discussing coaching around resistance. Sam began developing this topic a couple of years back when he had seen some books and articles about overcoming resistance and how to defeat resistance. It had always struck him as kind of psychologically violent, very prescriptive, and not too collaborative. When he thought about his own experiences with resistance — both when he resisted some sort of change and his experiences coaching change — he discovered that it should not be thought as something to be overcome, but instead, as a useful red flag.   Sam further explains what coaching around resistance is, how to get people to talk about their emotions when they’re resistant, how to become an effective coach for leading changes or a transformation, and how to build the skills that are key to coaching around resistance. They also discuss the different levels of relationship that are important when coaching around resistance, the different types of inquiry you can apply in your coaching, and overall, what you should keep in mind while coaching.   Key Takeaways What is resistance? A natural reaction to an emotional process of adapting to difficult change What is coaching around resistance? It is when you act with empathy and help others to — not overcome or defeat something — but to work past what is blocking them Treating the underlying cause rather than ignoring it or bandaging over it How do you get people to talk about emotion (in regards to resistance)? Use humble inquiry (which is asking for information in the least biased, least threatening way which helps to build trust) Access your ignorance Ask in a neutral way Sam’s advice for being an effective coach for leading change or a transformation: Consider the relationship you have with this person (the four levels of relationship that Edgar Schein identifies are: ‘minus one’ relationship, transactional relationship, personal relationship, or intimate relationship) with the goal being ‘personal’ Have honesty about the mutual problem or the experience that is happening Honor commitments and promises Find that level of comfort where you both trust each other to be open and truthful Share information (which can help foster that personal relationship) Use relationship/team building exercises such as The Line Journey or Personal Maps Model the behavior you’re expecting from them Build a rapport so they’re open, transparent, and willing to share the true challenges that they may have Live by Scrum values (which helps to build the relationship to the right level) Use humble inquiry to build trust Use diagnostic inquiry, confrontational inquiry, and process-oriented inquiry at your discretion How to coach around resistance: Make sure to ask more questions Leave more space for the other person to talk Go beyond the mechanics; which includes the values of Scrum How do you build these skills? Start by trying them on/practicing with someone who you already have a good, trusting, personal relationship with   Mentioned in this Episode: Sam Falco (LinkedIn) Paul R. Lawrence Flawless Consulting: A Guide to Getting Your Expertise Used, by Peter Block Humble Inquiry: The Gentle Art of Asking Instead of Telling, by Edgar H. Schein Humble Consulting: How to Provide Real Help Faster, by Edgar H. Schein The Journey Line Exercise Mind Map Personal Map Managing for Happiness: Games, Tools, and Practices to Motivate Any Team, by Jurgen Appelo The Four Forms of Inquiry Scrum Values The Situation Behavior Impact Framework (SBI Model)Agile Coaches’ Corner Ep. 27: “Deep Drive on Scrum Values with Sam Falco” Nimble: A Coaching Guide for Responsive Facilitation, by Rebecca Sutherns   Sam Falco’s Book Pick: The Professional Product Owner: Leveraging Scrum as a Competitive Advantage, by Don McGreal and Ralph Jocham   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!

This week, Dan Neumann is joined by AgileThought colleague and return guest, Sam Falco! Sam is an Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Professional with an extensive background leading Agile development teams.   A few episodes ago they discussed Scrum and empirical process control and today they’ll be doing a deep dive on Scrum values!   One of the problems many people tend to face with Scrum is that it can feel very mechanical. But luckily, there is a solution to that. There’s a statement in the Scrum Guide that the successful use of Scrum depends on people becoming more proficient in living by five values; the values that drive Scrum. These values truly put the heart in Scrum — and they’re exactly what Sam will be talking about today!   Tune in to learn what these values are, why they are so critical to the success of Scrum teams, and how to apply these values. Sam also gives some examples of where he’s seen the values be really present (and, where they haven’t) in a Scrum team and the effect that it has on the organization overall.   Key Takeaways The five values that put the heart in Scrum: Commitment Courage Focus Openness Respect Why these values are so critical to Scrum teams and how to apply them: You need commitment to stay on track with Scrum Openness and courage are key to having transparent and honest communication Stay focused on the work of the sprint and the goals of the Scrum team Stay focused on the sprint goal helps to eliminate distractions Don’t get distracted by side projects and focus on the main task at hand (Sam recommends using personal Kanban boards) Respect all members of the Scrum team to be capable, independent people Show respect by showing where you have dependencies with the Scrum team Show respect by not expecting everyone to know what you know With openness and courage: share the whys, share the issues you ran into, how you overcame them, and where you need to escalate them How to strengthen these values in your Scrum team: See where they’re present and figure out where they can be strengthened Bring it up in a retrospective and have some deeper conversations about it   Mentioned in this Episode: Sam Falco (LinkedIn) The Scrum Guide Agile Coaches’ Corner Ep. 23: “Scrum and Empirical Process Control with Sam Falco” Agile Coaches’ Corner Ep. 21: “Why Are Games Important to Agile? With Sam Falco” Agnostic Agile Kanban Guide from ProjectManager.com Personal Kanban Board Agile Manifesto Endure: Mind, Body, and the Curiously Elastic Limits of Human Performance, by Alex Hutchinson   Sam Falco’s Book Picks: The Servant as Leader, by Robert K. Greenleaf Agile Project Management with Scrum, by Ken Schwaber The Loneliness of the Long-Distance Runner, by Alan Sillitoe   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!

In today’s episode, Dan Neumann is joined by Sam Falco once again! Sam is Dan’s colleague at AgileThought and is an Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Professional with an extensive background leading Agile development teams.   In a previous episode, Sam and Dan discussed games and why Scrum works for people from a gaming-standpoint and helps drive engagement. In this episode, they’re discussing empirical process control and how it makes Scrum work from a getting-things-done standpoint!   Sam shares some of the lessons he has learned as a Scrum master (both early and later in his career) and gives examples from his work. He also explains the benefits of empirical process control; how transparency is built; how Scrum events support transparency, inspection, and adaptation; and how to inspect and adapt in meaningful, healthy ways.   Key Takeaways What is empirical process control? A principle that emphasizes the core philosophy of Scrum based on the three main ideas of transparency, inspection, and adaptation The benefits of empirical process control: Provides thorough data to help make good decisions Without it, you’re relying on assumptions Gives you the ability to inspect each increment of the product every sprint and adapt the product backlog based on the feedback It builds trust between the Scrum team and stakeholders Gives transparency in the process Creates a feedback loop How transparency is built: Hold sprint review meetings and daily Scrum meetings Disclose defects of the state of the product so you can make good decisions about releasing it (or not releasing it) Create transparency around the technical debt Be honest about the issues around the product and around the work in the sprint Where one team has a dependency on another do more effective planning, scaling, and collaboration Minimize team dependencies when possible (by inspecting, adapting, and understanding/adjusting where the work is flowing) Clear communication during sprints and be transparent even with “bad news” and issues   Mentioned in this Episode: Sam Falco (LinkedIn) Empirical Process Control Agile Coaches’ Corner Ep. 21: “Why Are Games Important to Agile? With Sam Falco” Agile Coaches’ Corner Ep. 22: “The Role of Managers in Agile Organizations with Esther Derby” The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering, by Frederick P. Brooks Jr. Lead True: Live Your Values, Build Your People, Inspire Your Community, by Jeff Thompson Agile Coaches’ Corner Ep. 20: “Dr. Jeff Thompson on Values-Based Leadership” Gundersen Health System   Sam Falco’s Book Pick: User Story Mapping: Discover the Whole Story, Build the Right Product, by Jeff Patton   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!

This week, Dan Neumann is joined by co-collaborator, Sam Falco! Sam is an agile coach and Certified Scrum Professional with an extensive background in leading agile development teams.   Today, they’re going to be talking all about games and why they are an important part of agile. Sam illustrates why games are not just time-wasters, but are actually powerful learning tools that help teams come together and solve problems.   Sam and Dan discuss what constitutes a game, why they’re important to agile, the difference between games and simulations, and the importance of doing a debrief with simulations to ensure the learning objective is achieved. Sam also gives some examples of different games, how to use them in training, and some sources of resistance to games that may show up in the workplace and how to solve them.   Key Takeaways Why are games important to Agile? They help build relationships They have goals, rules, a feedback system, and voluntary participation (very similar to Scrum — which is why it can be so powerful to leverage) Cooperative games build team rapport They allow time for a break on difficult work-related problems while still building problem-solving skills Games that Sam recommends: Hanabi, the card game The Penny Game The Ball Point Game The Rope Game Escape: The Curse of the Temple, the board game Rory Story Cubes, the dice game Apples to Apples, the card game How games can be used in training: Hold retrospectives to discuss how to get better within these games Tie these games back to how to work better together as a team over time Use them as a learning tool to learn about individual team players and how they function within a team Bring games into the retrospectives to shake things up Debrief after the game to reflect on key lessons Sources of resistance to games that may show up in an organization and how to solve them: Someone senior in the organization may not understand and consider it a waste of money (Solution: explain the value that both the company and the teams will be gaining) An internal barrier within the group where someone may perceive an activity or game as weird or uncomfortable (Solution: you can adjust the game or allow people to opt out)   Mentioned in this Episode: Sam Falco (LinkedIn) Global Game Jam Reality Is Broken: Why Games Make Us Better and How They Can Change the World, by Jane McGonigal The Grasshopper — Games, Life and Utopia, by Bernard Suits and Frank Newfeld Hanabi (Card Game) Penny Game Ball Point Game The Rope Game Escape: The Curse of the Temple (Board Game) Rory Story Cubes Apples to Apples (Card Game) Lead True: Live Your Values, Build Your People, Inspire Your Community, by Jeff Thompson Agile Coaches’ Corner, Ep. 20: “Dr. Jeff Thompson on Values-Based Leadership”   Sam Falco’s Book Pick She Has Her Mother's Laugh: The Powers, Perversions, and Potential of Heredity, by Carl Zimmer   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!

Today’s topic is all about retrospectives! A retrospective is a short meeting for project teams to reflect on the most recent stage of their project, analyze their processes, and identify issues or things they can do better, moving forward. Joining Dan Neumann today is return guest — and his colleague at AgileThought — Sam Falco. Sam is an Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Professional with an extensive background leading Agile development teams. Dan and Sam dive deep into discussing Agile retrospectives, going over the five phases of the widely accepted framework from Esther Derby’s and Diana Larsen’s book, Agile Retrospectives: Making Good Teams Great. They also discuss what makes an effective retrospective, some of the failure patterns in unsuccessful retrospectives, and some great resources on retrospectives to follow up on after this week’s show!   Key Takeaways The 5 phases of the Agile Retrospectives framework: Set the Stage Gather Data Generate Insights Decide What to Do Close the Retrospective What makes an effective retrospective? Engage the team in ‘setting the stage’ activities (as it is imperative for the team to effectively work together) Track useful and pertinent data to bring to the retrospective Leverage an experimental mindset Generate insights by digging deeper beyond the superficial issues by using the 5 Whys Narrow down the list, make the list doable/actionable, hold people accountable, and follow through Show appreciation for your teammates Ask for feedback as a facilitator to improve future retrospectives What are some failure patterns? Making the cycles too short and time-cutting due to no value Covering the same issues every time without any experiment to fix it Turning the retrospective into an unproductive complaint session Having a long list of too many things to change (which dilutes focus) Declaring your hands are tied and the problem cannot be fixed   Mentioned in this Episode: Diana Larsen Agile Coaches’ Corner episode: “Exploring an Experimental Mindset with Adam Ulery” 5 Whys Retromat The Thiagi Group Fun Retrospectives Liberating Structures 1-2-4-All Agile Coaches’ Corner episode: “Setting Up Working Agreements with Christy Erbeck” Rory’s Story Cubes Retrium   Dan Neumann and Sam Falco’s Book Picks Agile Retrospectives: Making Good Teams Great, by Esther Derby and Diana Larsen Getting Value out of Agile Retrospectives — A Toolbox of Retrospectives Exercises, by Luis Gonçalves and Ben Linders Scorecasting: The Hidden Influences Behind How Sports Are Played and Games Are Won, by Tobias Moskowitz and L. Jon Wertheim Bluebird, Bluebird, by Attica Locke Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts., by Brené Brown   Want to Learn More or Get in Touch? Visit the website and catch up with all the episodes on AgileThought.com! Email your thoughts or suggestions to Podcast@AgileThought.com or Tweet @AgileThought using #AgileThoughtPodcast!

Software Process and Measurement Cast 482 features our interview with Natalie Warnert.  We talked about the diversity of voice, thoughts and ideas and Women in Agile.  Developing ideas and solving problems is the reason for software development, project management, process improvement, business systems analysis -- just about everything in life is about solving problems.  Diversity helps us to generate better ideas and decisions.   Bio Natalie Warnert is the primary founder of the Women in Agile initiative, which enables, empowers, and expands the distribution of new and diverse ideas in the agile and technology communities worldwide. She is a frequent speaker on business and agile topics including product strategy, user experience, and emotional intelligence. Her strategy focuses on actions you can implement tomorrow for the immediate impact that track toward longer-term vision and outcomes. Natalie also brings unparalleled humor to all her engagements (or so she thinks). Natalie is passionate about guiding companies as they design, execute, and support their approach to cultural change as a Principal Agile Consultant at CA Technologies. Her vast thought leadership experience is recognized by her numerous keynotes, podcasts, and publications. Natalie has earned various degrees and certifications over the past decade including her Master of Arts in Organizational Leadership, SAFe Program Consultant, Certified Scrum Professional, and Six Sigma Yellow Belt. For more of Natalie’s work please visit www.nataliewarnert.com Re-Read Saturday News This week we tackled Chapter 15 of Actionable Agile Metrics for Predictability: An Introduction by Daniel S. Vacanti. Chapter 15 is titled Monte Carlo Method Introduction.   Remember to buy your copy today and read along, and we will be back next week! What is next? Vote in the poll to pick the next book!   Vote for two books! [polldaddy poll=9941343]   Previous Installments Introduction and Game Plan Week 2: Flow, Flow Metrics, and Predictability Week 3: The Basics of Flow Metrics Week 4: An Introduction to Little’s Law Week 5: Introduction to CFDs Week 6: Workflow Metrics and CFDs Week 7: Flow Metrics and CFSs Week 8: Conservation of Flow, Part I Week 9: Conservation of Flow, Part II Week 10: Flow Debt Week 11: Introduction to Cycle Time Scatterplots Week 12: Cycle Time Histograms Week 13: Interpreting Cycle Time Scatterplots Week 14: Service Level Agreements Week 15: Pull Policies Week 16: Introduction to Forecasting Week 17: Monte Carlo Method Introduction   Dead Tree Book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/098643633X/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=098643633X&linkCode=as2&tag=softprocandme-20&linkId=3488b22252fbe0c99b33ea226f9dcdf5 Kindle https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013ZQ5TUQ/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B013ZQ5TUQ&linkCode=as2&tag=softprocandme-20&linkId=f5bdfb462b1cb570344bba7dff6e3c37 Get your copy and begin reading (or re-reading)! Upcoming Webinars and Conferences Using Size to Drive Testing in Agile Tom Cagley & Associates and Sealights Webinar Tue, Mar 13, 2018 11:00 AM - 11:45 AM EDT http://bit.ly/2CdBQZX QAI Quest 2018 The Three Amigo’s Role in Agile May 21-25, 2018, San Antonio, Texas ISMA 15 May 11 Rome, Italy I will also be at Agile West.  More information next week! Next SPaMCAST SPaMCAT 483 will feature our essay on measuring the value delivered by agile. We also have columns from Steve Tendon and Jon M Quigley.

The Scrum Alliance’s Certified Scrum Professional (CSP) designation is changing on Jan 1, 2018. If you meet the qualifications for the current version of CSP, applying before it expires on December 31, 2017 may provide you with a much easier path to the the practitioner level of certification offered by the Scrum Alliance. You’ll find details on the current version of CSP here: https://www.scrumalliance.org/certifications/practitioners/csp-certification In order to quality for CSP there are a number of requirements that must be met including earning 70 Scrum Education Units (SEUs). With the pending change, I have been recommending to all my CSM and CSPO students that they apply for CSP as soon as possible in order to beat the deadline. Many of them have come back with questions about how to earn the SEUs required for the CSP designation. In this podcast, Scrum Alliance Director of Global Leaning and Assessment, Erika Massie and Scrum Alliance Learning Coordinator, Cody Wanberg break down the changes to the CSP certification, the timeline for the change AND we talk though different ways to attain the required SEU’s before the deadline. It’s a short podcast, so no actual  show notes for this one. Just a few things to keep in mind… In order to qualify for CSP before the change you must have your completed application submitted to the Scrum Alliance before it becomes 2018 in Denver. Once you submit, the turnaround time you should expect is 8 weeks. Here are a few of the ways you can earn SEUs… Watch the CST facilitated webinars on the Scrum Alliance website. There are 19 of these and they are an hour each. If you watch  them all, you’ll earn 19 SEUs. Watch the Scrum Foundations e-learning series to earn 1 SEU. If you took a CSM or CSPO, each class is worth 16 SEUs. If you’ve taken both, that is 32. AND, if you’ve taken CSM or CSPO more than once, you get the 16 for each time you take the class. During the interview, Cody and Erika explain that listening to something like the Agile Uprising’s Manifesto Author Review podcast series could be submitted under Category E - Independent Learning. You get 1 SEU for each hour of time spent listening. It is a great series and I highly recommend it. You an find it here. There are a number of additional ways to earn SEUs and you can find that detailed on the Scrum Alliance site. https://www.scrumalliance.org/certifications/practitioners/csp-certification/ways-to-earn-seus Additional Questions If you have questions for the Scrum Alliance about the changes to CSP or SEU’s, send an email to support@scrumalliance.org with the subject line CSP Application Question

Don Gray (@donaldegray), Faye Thompson (@agilefaye), Joanne Perold (@joperold), Barry Tandy (@barrytandy), Regina Martins (@gianamar), Oz Chihwayi (@ozchihwayi), and Karl Fuchs (@karlofuchs) joined Ryan Ripley (@RyanRipley) to discuss agile coaching at Agile Africa 2017. [featured-image single_newwindow=”false”]Agile Africa 2017[/featured-image]  is a friend and mentor to me, and a valued member of the agile community. He has contributed to multiple books including: CENTER ENTER TURN SUSTAIN: ESSAYS IN CHANGE ARTISTRY, READINGS FOR PROBLEM-SOLVING LEADERSHIP, and AMPLIFY YOUR EFFECTIVENESS. He co-teaches one of the top agile and leadership workshops available – Coaching Beyond the Team – with Esther Derby.Don Faye has more than eighteen years of project delivery experience and is currently a senior agile consultant with CareWorks Tech. Focusing on agile methodologies and continuous improvement, she has had a positive impact in the financial services, healthcare, advertising, and automotive industries. Faye is passionate about using innovative solutions to drive business value and helps work groups transform into highly engaged and energized teams. Jo is passionate about helping teams and people grow and improve. As a coach/trainer at Agile42, she loves helping teams and organizations implement and improve their agile practices. Jo has worked for more than a decade in the software industry in all areas of software development, and is interested in both people and process improvement and continuously learning and finding better ways to solve problems. She is a Certified Scrum Trainer and when not thinking about scrum she enjoys reading, good food, good wine and the occasional good whiskey. Barry is an agile coach on a journey filled with meaningful relationships and experiences… some of them life changing, all of them making a difference. He is a coach at Driven Alliance and prides himself on being able to build and maintain successful long-term relationships and through those relationships being able to follow a passion of working closely with people systems and the dynamics that make up those systems. As a Scrum Master, he is focused on solving many different problems that his teams encounter. Regina aims for continuous improvement in her personal and professional lives and her daily mantra is to be a better version of herself today than she was yesterday. She has been a Scrum Master since 2010 and more recently an Agile Coach with Agile 42. Regina gets energized when she is involved in building self-organizing teams and facilitating these teams to deliver value to business stakeholders. She is a Certified Scrum Professional, Certified Scrum Master, and is an avid Kanban practitioner. Oz has over 15 years of working in the delivery, testing, and maintenance of systems, He seeks to identify and solve the right problems while realizing value. Oz loves to share experiences and is an advocate for collaboration in teams and organizations. He currently works as a software tester in Johannesburg, South Africa with House of Test. A life learner and explorer, he believes thinking is his strongest skill in his bag of many and varied tricks. A regular long run keeps him grounded. Karl is an Electronic Engineer by trade with a natural ability to sense risk and a talent to find the most productive and optimal configuration for managing complex situations. He enjoys challenges and responsibility in a technical/technological stimulating environment that offers opportunities for providing total solutions, independent thought, and creative problem-solving. Karl brings lean and kanban to the forefront of his coaching as he seeks ways for his teams to find flow. In this episode you'll discover: The wonderful agile community in South Africa Links from the show: Agile Africa 2017 Conference Growing Agile Joburg Center for Software Engineering [callout]This innovative text is designed to improve thinking skills through the application of 30 critical thinking principles—Metathoughts. These specialized tools and techniques are useful for approaching all forms of study, inquiry, and problem solving. Levy applies Metathoughts to a diverse array of issues in contemporary clinical, social, and cross-cultural psychology: identifying strengths and weaknesses in various schools of thought, defining and explaining psychological phenomena, evaluating the accuracy and usefulness of research studies, reducing logical flaws and personal biases, and improving the search for creative solutions. The Metathoughts are brought to life with practical examples, clinical vignettes, illustrations, anecdotes, thought-provoking exercises, useful antidotes, and contemporary social problems and issues. Click here to purchase on Amazon.[/callout] [reminder]Which topic resonated with you? Please leave your thoughts in the comment section below.[/reminder] Want to hear another podcast about the life of an agile coach? — Listen to my conversation with Zach Bonaker, Diane Zajac-Woodie, and Amitai Schlair on episode 39. We discuss growing an agile practice and how coaches help create the environments where agile ideas can flourish. One tiny favor.  — Please take 30 seconds now and leave a review on iTunes. This helps others learn about the show and grows our audience. It will help the show tremendously, including my ability to bring on more great guests for all of us to learn from. Thanks! Techwell's Agile Dev East is *the* premier event covering the latest advances in the agile community. Agile for Humans listeners can use the code AGILEDEV to receive up to $200 off any registration package over $800. Check out the entire program at adceast.techwell.com. You'll notice that I'm speaking there again this year. Attendees will have a chance to participate in my Aligning Toward Business Agility–360° of Freedom Leadership Summit presentation, along with my half day sessions on advanced scrum topics called Scrum: Answering the Tough Questions, as well as Rethinking Your Retrospectives. I hope to see many Agile for Humans listeners in Orlando – November 5-10, for this great event. The post AFH 077: Agile Africa 2017 appeared first on Ryan Ripley.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

As part of our Agile in business series, we get Agile expert Erich Bühler to explain how we (the product owner) should best prioritize a backlog and more. Erich Bühler is the founder director, main mentor and trainer at Innova1st. He began his professional career in 1993 and spent several years in positions of different global enterprises in Uruguay, Spain, London, Malta and New Zealand before establishing his own company. His beginnings were in software, which gave him the bases to know in depth the problematic and transition towards a digital and agile organization. He has helped several private and governmental initiatives, he is a Certified Scrum Master, Certified Scrum Professional, outstanding youth 2002 in Uruguay, has several publications (McGraw-Hill) as well as he is the creator of Enterprise Social Systems. He usually collaborates with Scrum Alliance and runs seminars around the world.

We discuss how an Agile Product Owner can ensure to the stakeholders that they are building the right product. We also discuss terminating a sprint and so much more. Erich Bühler is the founder director, main mentor and trainer at Innova1st. He began his professional career in 1993 and spent several years in positions of different global enterprises in Uruguay, Spain, London, Malta and New Zealand before establishing his own company. His beginnings were in software, which gave him the bases to know in depth the problematic and transition towards a digital and agile organization. He has helped several private and governmental initiatives, he is a Certified Scrum Master, Certified Scrum Professional, outstanding youth 2002 in Uruguay, has several publications (McGraw-Hill) as well as he is the creator of Enterprise Social Systems. He usually collaborates with Scrum Alliance and runs seminars around the world.

Erich Bühler is the founder director, main mentor and trainer at Innova1st. He began his professional career in 1993 and spent several years in positions of different global enterprises in Uruguay, Spain, London, Malta and New Zealand before establishing his own company. His beginnings were in software, which gave him the bases to know in depth the problematic and transition towards a digital and agile organization. He has helped several private and governmental initiatives, he is a Certified Scrum Master, Certified Scrum Professional, outstanding youth 2002 in Uruguay, has several publications (McGraw-Hill) as well as he is the creator of Enterprise Social Systems. He usually collaborates with Scrum Alliance and runs seminars around the world.

This week on the podcast Ryn does the interview with guest Paul Ellarby as they discuss the need for and types of leadership for an Agile Transformation. Paul and Ryn share a lot of common experiences in this area. Paul is from the Scrum Alliance and has over 20 years experience in the information technology field. Among many other things, Paul is a Certified Scrum Professional, Certified Scrum Master, and a Certified Scrum Product Owner. To read more from the news segment go to www.rynmelberg.com.

Recorded at the Scrum Alliance's Global Scrum Gathering in Orlando, FL, this episode features nine voices. Vic (@AgileCoffee) was joined by fellow participants (all working with Agile/Scrum teams) to discuss some highlights of the gathering (and CSP Fast Pass). Guests list: Brett Palmer (@brett_palmer) Aaron Kopel (@aakopel) Jason Tanner (@JasonBTanner) Leon Sabarsky (@LeonSabarsky) Anderson Hummel (@anderson_hummel) Things we'd mentioned: Peter Green's Lean and Agile Adoption with the Laloux Culture Model Scrum Gathering Rio June 23-25, by Scrum Alliance CSP FAST PASS: the fast track to becoming a Certified Scrum Professional® (on twitter at @CSPFastPass)

In this episode, Joe Vallone explains the alphabet soup of Scrum and agile certifications, the differences between scrum teams and enterprise scrum teams and the approaches leaders can take to shift the culture of their organizations to be agile-ready. Joe Vallone is an experienced Agile “Coach and Trainer” at Scaled Agile Inc and has been involved in Lean and Agile communities since 2002. Mr. Vallone has helped coach several large-scale Agile transformations at Zynga, Apple, Microsoft, VCE, Nokia, AT&T and American Airlines. Joe is an effective leader and speaker with over 20 years of software development and coaching experience with certifications as a Certified Scrum Master, Certified Scrum Professional, and Certified SAFE Program Consultant Trainer.   Key Takeaways Agile Certifications - small teams Certified Scrum Master -  requires 2 day course and passed a test Certified Scrum Professional - requires proven practical experience in coaching and leading teams with Scrum-specific SAFE (Scaled Agile for the Enterprise) Certifications - framework for implementing agile across the enterprise SA (SAFE Agilist) - requires 2 day course SPC (SAFE Program Consultant) - involved in coaching and implementing SAFE agile programs SPCT (SAFE Program Consultant Trainer) - Can train the other SAFE practitioners Trust but check and verify A leader has vision and focus but keeps the people first in their mind Very intelligent people tend to have unique motivators, not just the carrot and stick Knowledge workers require leaders to trust them Team members need to be held accountable to one another Shift the culture away from blame to accountability Resources Mentioned Our Iceberg is Melting by Dr. John Kotter (Listen on Audible) scaledagile.com scaledagileframework.com This episode is sponsored by: Hello Tech Pros. Want to be a guest on the show? Chad Bostick here, and I’m helping professionals who work with technology build a personal brand and get connected to an audience of thousands of technologists, entrepreneurs, business leaders and investors. Download my cheat-sheet of interview questions and apply to be a guest today by texting HELLOPODCAST to 44222 or visiting hellotechpros.com/guest Show notes at http://hellotechpros.com/joe-vallone-leadership/ Hello Tech Pros is the daily podcast that interviews business professionals who work with technology and discuss Motivation, Productivity, Leadership, Technology, People, Entrepreneurship and Being Unplugged.

Stephen Forte is the Chief Strategy Officer of the venture backed company, Telerik, a leading vendor of developer and team productivity tools. He is the founder and executive director of Mach5, a Silicon Valley based startup accelerator and co-founder of AcceleratorHK, Hong Kong's first startup accelerator. As well as the founder or co-founder if severl a successful companies. Stephen is also a Certified Scrum Master, Certified Scrum Professional, PMP, and also speaks regularly at industry conferences around the world. He has written several books on application and database development. Stephen has an MBA from the City University of New York. Stephen is also a board member of the Scrum Alliance. An avid mountain climber, Stephen leads a trek in the Mt. Everest region every fall to raise money for charity. After several years as an ex-pat in Hong Kong, Stephen now lives in Silicon Valley with his wife.