Podcasts about we want them infected

Two political scientists look back at a deadly pandemic and ask, "could we have done even less?"Where to find us: Peter's newsletterPeter's other podcast, 5-4Mike's other podcast, Maintenance PhaseSources:Lawrence Wright's “The Plague Year”The 2019 WHO report                30‐day mortality following COVID‐19COVID-19: examining the effectiveness of non-pharmaceutical interventionsPolicy Interventions, Social Distancing, and SARS-CoV-2 Transmission in the United StatesWhat we can learn from SwedenA review of the Swedish policy response to COVID-19How Sweden approached the COVID‐19 pandemicThe first eight months of Sweden's COVID‐19 strategyThe Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a DisasterExcess mortality in Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden during the COVID-19 pandemic Comparing drivers of pandemic economic decline 2020How Sweden approached the COVID-19 pandemicComparisons of all-cause mortality between European countries and regionsJonathan Howard's “We Want Them Infected.”Deaths: Leading Causes for 2021Stay-at-home orders associate with subsequent decreases in COVID-19 cases and fatalities in the United States Did the Timing of State Mandated Lockdown Affect the Spread of COVID-19? US State Restrictions and Excess COVID-19 Pandemic DeathsThanks to Mindseye for our theme song!

In this explosive episode, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent confront the accelerating dismantling of America's public health infrastructure. They begin with the NIH staff revolt—documented in the newly published Bethesda Declaration—and Jay Bhattacharya's astonishing lack of awareness during Senate testimony. From there, they shift to RFK Jr.'s controversial appointments to the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), many of whom are tied to disinformation campaigns and anti-vaccine advocacy. The hosts expose the hypocrisy in the medical rhetoric of figures like Vinay Prasad, who once championed randomized controlled trials (RCTs) as the gold standard—until now. With the CDC gutted, the FDA undermined, and common sense replacing real science, they ask: how do we preserve truth in an age of weaponized misinformation? Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent tear apart David Zweig's controversial book on school closures during the COVID-19 pandemic. Orent, who penned a scathing review, joins to dissect Zweig's misleading statistics, glaring omissions (like Delta and Omicron), and his cozy alignment with figures like Jay Bhattacharya and Marty Makary. The conversation dives into how public health history is being rewritten in real time—and the real-world harm it causes, particularly for children, pregnant women, and public trust in science. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

When the loudest critics of COVID mitigation take power, their tune changes—but not for the better. In this episode, Jonathan and Wendy unravel the contradictions and consequences of new booster guidelines championed by Drs. Makary and Prasad. Once RCT absolutists, they now admit boosters are vital for the elderly—but block access for the rest, citing shaky rationale and misrepresented international comparisons. With NIH Director Jay Bhattacharya abdicating leadership and RFK Jr. laying groundwork to question childhood vaccines, the stakes are no longer theoretical. This isn't about science—it's about control, and the cost may be millions of unboosted, unprotected lives. Let me know if you'd like a thumbnail caption, social post, or edited quote card next. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.  The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent unpack the deep ironies and ethical contradictions behind recent appointments at the NIH and FDA. From once-demanded randomized controlled trials now deemed “not always necessary,” to the political operatives now at the helm of America's public health infrastructure, the duo explores how power rewrites principles. They dissect statements from RFK Jr., Vinay Prasad, and Jay Bhattacharya, drawing attention to the chilling real-world consequences of politicized medicine—especially for vaccines and children's health.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent examine the alarming elevation of wellness influencer Casey Means as Surgeon General nominee, despite lacking a medical license or conventional medical credibility. They delve into Vinay Prasad's appointment as head of vaccine regulation, scrutinizing his past critiques of RCT deficiencies—and the impossible standards he now sets for himself. The episode also investigates the troubling rise of an autism registry, likened to authoritarian categorization, and NIH's internal collapse under Jay Bhattacharya, whose leadership is marked by mass layoffs and denial of responsibility. With science policy veering into cronyism, dismantling, and performative governance, the episode argues that we're witnessing a historic erosion of public health leadership—led not by scientists, but social media provocateurs. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.  The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent return to discuss the alarming direction of U.S. public health, focusing on RFK Jr.'s misinformation campaign about vaccines, the threat of COVID booster access disappearing under political pressure, and the erosion of CDC authority.  They critique the hypocrisy of figures like Marty Makary and Vinay Prasad who now call for new randomized controlled trials while simultaneously undercutting access to vaccines.  The conversation also highlights the troubling revisionist COVID narratives being pushed by mainstream journalists and the dangerous implications of gutting pandemic protections—particularly for vulnerable groups.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In this episode, Jonathan and Wendy reunite to unpack an overwhelming cascade of public health failures. From the misuse of "soft eugenics" rhetoric to justify vaccine hesitancy, to the measles outbreaks being minimized and blamed on migrants and past COVID policies, they trace the unraveling of scientific integrity under the new administration. They highlight how figures like RFK Jr., Marty Makary, and Jay Bhattacharya have normalized misinformation, degraded public trust, and allowed preventable diseases to resurge. Despite some isolated bright spots, the episode paints a stark portrait of how ideology, not evidence, is now driving federal health leadership.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard returns to the podcast to discuss the collapse of public health in the United States. After coming on the podcast in 2023 to discuss his book, We Want Them Infected, Dr. Howard provides an update on some of the contrarian doctors and anti-vaccine influencers he has been following before and since the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic. // Episode notes: https://www.lastborninthewilderness.com/episodes/jonathan-howard-2 // Sustain + support: https://www.patreon.com/lastborninthewilderness // Donate: https://www.paypal.me/lastbornpodcast

Dr. Jonathan Howard returns to the podcast to discuss the collapse of public health in the United States. After coming on the podcast in 2023 to discuss his book, We Want Them Infected, Dr. Howard provides an update on some of the contrarian doctors and anti-vaccine influencers he has been following before and since the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic. // Support the work + listen to the full interview: https://www.patreon.com/lastborninthewilderness

On this week's episode of We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dive into the apocalyptic headlines coming out of U.S. public health agencies. From mass firings at the NIH and FDA, to the appointment of anti-vaccine ideologues like Jay Bhattacharya and Marty Makary, this episode chronicles the rapid unraveling of institutional science under RFK Jr.'s administration. The duo unpack the performative contradictions, gaslighting statements, and political interference now shaping federal health policy—and ask, how bad can it really get?   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In their most urgent and emotionally charged episode yet, Dr. Jonathan Howard and science journalist Wendy Orent confront the accelerating unraveling of public health institutions in the United States under the RFK Jr. administration. They open with a flood of disturbing headlines: Peter Marks, the nation's top vaccine expert, has been ousted. Measles is surging in Texas, and children are arriving at hospitals with liver failure after being treated with toxic vitamin A overdoses—recommended by RFK-aligned influencers. The CDC and NIH are being gutted: funding pulled, scientists fired, and research into vaccine hesitancy and mRNA technology halted. David Geier, a disgraced figure with a history of chemically castrating autistic children, has been tapped to lead a new federal vaccine safety study. Howard and Orent don't hold back. They rip into this dystopian reversal of public health, where disinformation peddlers are now calling the shots. They highlight the sheer absurdity and danger of putting figures like Jay Bhattacharya, Scott Atlas, and Geier in positions of power—people who have spent years sowing distrust in vaccines, downplaying COVID, and demonizing public health measures. The episode draws a brutal contrast between the lived reality of frontline doctors and essential workers—many of whom died in early pandemic waves—and the self-styled martyrs of the anti-lockdown movement, who now paint themselves as victims. One particularly enraging example: Bhattacharya's claim that he felt “unsafe” on Stanford's campus after a flyer was posted with his own quote alongside Florida's Delta wave death tolls. This, while over 20,000 Floridians died in that wave, many unvaccinated due to the policies he championed. A major target of their critique is the book In COVID's Wake, which they say rewrites history by glorifying the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration and ignoring the real human toll of their misinformation. Orent and Howard dismantle the book's central claim—that these anti-lockdown figures were treated unfairly—pointing out that many of them became media darlings, got promoted, or were appointed to powerful roles. Meanwhile, real scientists and doctors who fought on the frontlines were ignored, censured, or worse. They also expose the cynical “woke-washing” by these same figures—claiming to champion the poor and marginalized while promoting policies that left essential workers unprotected. Their concern for “equity,” Howard and Orent argue, was nothing more than rhetorical cover for libertarian, laissez-faire ideology. As the episode barrels toward its conclusion, one message becomes chillingly clear: We are watching the active dismantling of public health—science silenced, disinformation rewarded, and truth replaced by ideology. And as Dr. Howard puts it: “If we had predicted these headlines six months ago, we would've sounded insane. But now, they're reality.” This episode is a searing call to action. For scientists. For journalists. For anyone who still believes in truth, public health, and protecting the vulnerable. Because as Orent warns: “The wild horses of the plague apocalypse are descending... and the party's just beginning.”   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

This episode critically examines In COVID's Wake by Princeton professors Steven M. and Francis Lee, focusing on their defense of the Great Barrington Declaration. Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent argue that the authors downplay the catastrophic errors of the GBD architects, who pushed for herd immunity through mass infection while opposing vaccines, masks, and lockdowns.  The discussion highlights the disconnection between political science theorizing and real-world public health outcomes. Using Florida as a case study, they showcase the tragic failures of the GBD's approach, debunking the revisionist portrayal of its policies as reasonable or compassionate. The episode underscores the importance of accurately remembering the pandemic's scientific realities and human costs. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In this episode of Therapy Time with Jonathan and Wendy, hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dive into the growing measles outbreak in the U.S. and how it exposes the deadly consequences of RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine agenda. With 259 cases in Texas alone, including 34 hospitalizations and two deaths, the hosts discuss how this outbreak was entirely preventable—yet fueled by years of misinformation from figures like RFK Jr. and his allies. Dr. Howard reflects on an invitation he received to speak with a filmmaker producing a documentary on the Great Barrington Declaration, questioning whether it will present the truth or further rewrite pandemic history. Meanwhile, Wendy highlights RFK Jr.'s bizarre response to the measles crisis—suggesting vitamin A, cod liver oil, and steroidsover vaccines. The discussion expands to doctors and public figures who once defended RFK Jr., including Vinay Prasad, Jay Bhattacharya, and Marty Makary, all of whom promoted his nomination as a supposed reformer of public health. Now, with RFK Jr. dismantling vaccine initiatives, canceling flu shot studies, and pushing for a new "study" on vaccines and autism, Jonathan and Wendy ask: Where are the apologies? Other key topics include: Jay Bhattacharya's refusal to acknowledge that vaccines don't cause autism during Senate questioning The Democrats' failure to challenge Bhattacharya and Makary on their COVID-era misinformation The ongoing attack on vaccine safety monitoring systems and the potential removal of mRNA vaccines The absurdity of calls for a "randomized controlled trial" of childhood vaccine schedules As the anti-vaccine movement gains more power, Jonathan and Wendy underscore a terrifying reality: We are watching public health be systematically dismantled—and children are paying the price.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent analyze the confirmation of Jay Bhattacharya to the NIH, lamenting the Senate's failure to scrutinize his history of COVID misinformation.    They discuss RFK Jr.'s unexpected pro-vaccine article in response to the Texas measles outbreak, highlighting how real-world responsibility has forced him into an awkward position. Yet, despite acknowledging the measles vaccine's effectiveness, Kennedy continues to pander to his anti-vaccine base by avoiding direct recommendations.    Meanwhile, the same misinformation tactics used to downplay COVID—claiming alternative causes of death, accusing doctors of malpractice, and insisting on "natural immunity"—are now being repurposed to minimize measles.    As public health agencies face political interference, the duo warns that science is under siege, and the consequences will be dire. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss the growing public health disasters under RFK Jr.'s leadership at HHS. They cover the first measles death of a child in over 30 years, the cancellation of a crucial flu vaccine advisory meeting, and the termination of funding for a promising oral COVID vaccine trial.    Meanwhile, RFK Jr. moves to eliminate public commentary on HHS decisions, and scientific institutions continue to suffer massive cuts. They highlight the Orwellian doublespeak of Vinay Prasad and others who once demanded more RCTs—only to stay silent as Kennedy cancels them.    Finally, they introduce the Bill Cassidy Profile in Cowardice Award, recognizing the senator who had the power to stop this but chose not to. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss the devastating consequences of public health misinformation, the rise of RFK Jr.'s influence, and the sweeping purges at institutions like the CDC, FDA, and NIH.    They examine how once-dismissive medical professionals are now reckoning with the damage as funding cuts and anti-vaccine policies take hold. The hosts also reflect on the role of social media in enabling misinformation and the hypocrisy of those who ignored warning signs for years. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss the disastrous confirmation of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as head of the HHS and the broader failure of medical and political leaders to confront misinformation.    They highlight how figures like Adam Sifu, Jeffrey Flier, and Stanford President Jonathan Levin failed to challenge the growing anti-science movement, normalizing dangerous narratives that have now taken hold in American policy. The gutting of NIH funding, the resurgence of vaccine-preventable diseases, and the continued gaslighting by figures like Vinay Prasad and John Mandrola all point to a grim future for public health. The episode serves as both a reflection on past failures and a warning for what comes next. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In this episode of We Want Them Infected, Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss the catastrophic turn of events in public health and science policy under the Trump administration.    RFK Jr. is poised to take control of the U.S. Health Department, the NIH has been gutted, and the CDC is actively censoring critical data. They examine how misinformation doctors like Vinay Prasad and Jay Bhattacharya helped normalize the war on science, how academia failed to respond, and why these cuts will have devastating long-term effects. Finally, they reflect on their own past misjudgments and the lessons learned in this bleak new reality. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent explore the shocking contradictions of those who once claimed to defend scientific dialogue but now cheerlead for mass censorship. They dissect the hypocrisy of figures like Vinay Prasad, Jay Bhattacharya, and Marty Makary—who spent years railing against censorship but remain silent as the new administration muzzles scientists, cancels NIH study sections, and defunds critical research.    They also examine Prasad's crude, vengeful rhetoric and the complicity of his defenders, who tone-police critics while tolerating his unprofessionalism.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Marty Makary's controversial positions during the COVID-19 pandemic have sparked debate over his suitability to lead the FDA. Despite his early rationality in addressing the crisis, he shifted to downplaying the virus's impact, overstating natural immunity, and spreading dubious claims about vaccine-related myocarditis. The episode also highlights his misleading narratives about pediatric COVID risks and corporate entanglements. The hosts question how his past actions, driven by political and ideological motives, align with public health values and warn of the potential damage his leadership could inflict. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent confront the troubling trend of downplaying the consequences of pandemic misinformation. They tackle RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine legacy and its normalization by influential doctors, explore the Great Barrington Declaration's advocacy for mass infection, and critique the intellectual theater around pandemic debates. The hosts highlight how these debates often overshadow the human toll of COVID, with 15 million lives lost globally. The episode also delves into the lab leak theory, emphasizing the need to focus on pandemic prevention over origin speculation.    Howard and Orent challenge the narrative that figures like Jay Bhattacharya and RFK Jr. offer viable leadership for public health, urging accountability and truth over spectacle. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In this episode, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dissect the ongoing efforts to rewrite the history of the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly the role of the Great Barrington Declaration. They examine Dr. Edward Livingston's recent commentary on the document, which downplays its advocacy for herd immunity through mass infection and instead praises its criticism of lockdowns. Jonathan and Wendy expose how Livingston's reframing and similar narratives contribute to the "Great Forgetting," erasing the devastating consequences of such proposals and the failure to protect vulnerable populations. They also critique the growing tendency to valorize empty statements like "I would have done this," highlighting the gap between words and actions in pandemic policy. As the conversation unfolds, they express concern over the potential impact of the incoming administration's policies, particularly on public health narratives. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent explore the controversial history of the Great Barrington Declaration, a document that advocated for herd immunity via natural infection, and its lasting impact on public health discourse. They critique the flawed claims made by its authors and discuss how the Declaration's proponents have rewritten its history to align with more socially palatable narratives. The hosts draw parallels to historical missteps in medicine, such as the unethical Tuskegee study, and dismantle comparisons to figures like Ignaz Semmelweis. Highlighting the real-world consequences of these ideas, they explore the devastation during Florida's Delta wave and challenge the notion that natural infection could protect the vulnerable. With Bhattacharya's Senate confirmation looming, they propose key questions that should be asked to hold him accountable for his actions during the pandemic.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent tackle two deeply troubling articles advocating for RFK Jr.'s role in vaccine oversight. They dissect claims linking Kennedy to evidence-based medicine and highlight his role in the deadly Samoa measles outbreak, where misinformation sowed distrust and fueled a public health disaster. The hosts criticize calls for impossible vaccine trials and underscore the irresponsibility of anti-vaccine rhetoric. Wrapping up, they urge listeners to advocate against RFK Jr.'s potential nomination, stressing the critical importance of preserving public trust in vaccines. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent address the rise of anti-vaccine rhetoric, focusing on RFK Jr.'s potential confirmation to a major public health position. They examine the role of high-profile doctors like Vinay Prasad and Martin Kulldorff in legitimizing RFK Jr.'s views and discuss the failure of medical leaders to challenge misinformation. Highlighting past outbreaks and the potential for future vaccine rollbacks, the duo warns of dire public health consequences, especially for children. They criticize platforms that profit from anti-science narratives while urging listeners to contact senators and oppose RFK Jr.'s confirmation. The episode underscores the urgent need for accountability and truth in public health discourse. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

This episode of We Want Them Infected delves into the implications of RFK Jr.'s recent nominations to lead major public health agencies, including his selection of anti-vaccine advocates for key roles. Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent analyze the potential resurgence of preventable diseases such as measles, polio, and pertussis due to declining vaccination rates. They also critique the medical professionals and media figures who normalized RFK Jr.'s rhetoric, arguing that these individuals bear responsibility for the unfolding crisis. The hosts emphasize the critical need for accurate reporting on the pandemic records of public health leaders and call on listeners to urge their senators to oppose the confirmation of these controversial nominees. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent trace the evolution of COVID-19 discourse from the early calls for open scientific debate to the current atmosphere of hostility and revenge.    They examine the shift in tone from figures like Vinay Prasad, who initially warned against demonizing heterodox views, to now using inflammatory language that fuels public outrage against scientists and public health officials. The discussion highlights the rise of dangerous populist narratives that threaten the integrity of the public health system, with explicit calls for purges, prosecutions, and dismantling of vaccine mandates.    Drawing historical comparisons to Soviet pseudoscience, Howard and Orent emphasize the alarming potential for misuse of political power against scientists, underscoring the risk to future pandemic responses and public trust in vaccines. The episode ends with Howard's anticipation of his upcoming debate against Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, where he plans to use the very words of the Great Barrington Declaration proponents to expose their inconsistencies. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

The latest episode of We Want Them Infected dives into the unsettling consequences of the recent election, with RFK Jr. poised to gain significant influence over public health policy. Jonathan and Wendy lament the spread of misinformation and its role in shaping voter choices, particularly the anti-vaccine rhetoric promoted by influential figures like RFK Jr., Jay Bhattacharya, and Marty McCary. They worry about the potential rollback of school vaccine mandates, the erosion of CDC authority, and the long-term impact on disease prevention efforts.    The hosts call for a renewed focus on grassroots efforts to educate communities about the importance of vaccines and the dangers of disinformation, emphasizing the need to stay vigilant and continue fighting against false narratives. Despite their concerns, they maintain hope that local health departments can still provide some protection and urge listeners to advocate for truth and science in their daily interactions. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In this pre-election episode of We Want Them Infected, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss the alarming potential of RFK Jr. assuming control over America's key health agencies under a Trump administration. With stakes high for the election, the episode dissects the anti-vaccine rhetoric and misinformation strategies that could influence policies affecting public health, and they delve into statements made by RFK Jr. and supporting figures like Dr. Vinay Prasad and Dr. Marty McCary.    The episode stresses the importance of awareness and voting, as potential outcomes could reshape America's public health landscape.In this pre-election episode of We Want Them Infected, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss the alarming potential of RFK Jr. assuming control over America's key health agencies under a Trump administration.    With stakes high for the election, the episode dissects the anti-vaccine rhetoric and misinformation strategies that could influence policies affecting public health, and they delve into statements made by RFK Jr. and supporting figures like Dr. Vinay Prasad and Dr. Marty McCary. The episode stresses the importance of awareness and voting, as potential outcomes could reshape America's public health landscape. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent return to discuss the normalization of anti-vaccine and disinformation narratives within respected medical circles. They explore prominent doctors' public support for RFK Jr., who has spread numerous vaccine-related conspiracy theories.    The episode critiques figures like Dr. Jay Bhattacharya and Dr. Marty McCary for endorsing Kennedy's viewpoints and the potential risks if RFK's allies gain key health roles. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/    The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dive into the dangerous world of pandemic revisionism and vaccine misinformation spearheaded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. They detail RFK Jr.'s extensive history of promoting anti-vaccine rhetoric and conspiracy theories, from false claims about COVID-19 targeting specific ethnic groups to his unfounded accusations linking vaccines to autism. The hosts warn about RFK Jr.'s recent alliance with Donald Trump and the frightening prospect of him influencing public health policies if Trump wins the 2024 election. Howard and Orient also stress the importance of resisting revisionist narratives about the pandemic and the harm that unchecked medical misinformation can cause. As the episode progresses, they outline the broader impact of such dangerous alliances, not just on public health, but on the very foundation of medical integrity. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/    The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent delve into the debate over COVID-19's origins, discussing the scientific evidence behind both the lab leak and natural transmission theories. They critique the rhetoric used by some public health figures and organizations like Biosafety Now, highlighting the contradictions in how lab safety and herd immunity have been framed during the pandemic. The episode concludes by emphasizing the need for a balanced approach to both lab safety and zoonotic disease prevention in future pandemic preparedness.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/    The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.  The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

In this episode, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent explore recent COVID-19 developments, including a study from JAMA examining long-term outcomes of vaccine-induced myocarditis versus COVID-19 myocarditis. They discuss the implications of these findings, contrasting the media's portrayal of vaccine myocarditis with the actual data.    The conversation shifts to the controversial political landscape as RFK Jr. drops out of the presidential race to endorse Trump, highlighting his continued influence on the anti-vaccine movement.    The episode also previews a contentious upcoming conference at Stanford University focused on COVID-19 pandemic policies, questioning the representation of diverse viewpoints and the integrity of the discourse surrounding pandemic response strategies.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/    The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In this episode, the discussion centers around the spread of misinformation about COVID-19 and vaccines by certain doctors, with a specific focus on Dr. Vinay Prasad.  Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent critique Dr. Prasad's approach to public discourse about the pandemic, pointing out his contradictory statements and apparent disregard for scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness of vaccines in children. They highlight how Dr. Prasad's fear-mongering over vaccine side effects predates any actual data on pediatric vaccines, suggesting a bias that undermines public health efforts. The episode underscores the dangers of such misinformation, particularly when it influences public perception and behavior during a global health crisis. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/    The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent explore the harmful effects of tone policing within the medical community, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic. They argue that tone policing is being used to protect prominent figures who have spread misleading information, such as Dr. John Ioannidis and Emily Oster, while silencing legitimate criticism.  The hosts emphasize the importance of maintaining open debate and challenge the hypocrisy of those who prioritize politeness over truth, even as the pandemic continues to claim lives. The discussion underscores the need for transparency and accountability in public health discourse.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/    The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dive into the controversial topic of herd immunity in the COVID-19 pandemic. They explore how early beliefs in natural immunity, touted by prominent figures, have been debunked by the ongoing waves of COVID reinfections and deaths. The discussion highlights how some experts have attempted to redefine herd immunity to cover up their past mistakes, and the duo emphasizes the importance of admitting errors rather than misleading the public.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/    The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In this episode, Dr. Howard and Wendy discuss the troubling trend of politicizing vaccines, focusing on recent comments by Trump and JD Vance against vaccine and mask mandates in schools. They explore the misinformation spread by notable figures like Marty McCary, who falsely claimed that no healthy children have died from COVID. The episode also addresses the alarming resurgence of COVID cases in San Francisco and the potential return of mask mandates. By debunking myths and highlighting the real risks COVID poses to children, especially those with conditions like asthma and obesity, the hosts aim to provide a clear and factual perspective on the importance of vaccinations. Resources CDC COVID-19 Data Tracker Johns Hopkins Medicine COVID-19 Resource Center MedPage Today: Think Twice Before Giving the COVID Vax to Healthy Kids Science Based Medicine: Reflections on a Failed Prediction ABC 7 San Francisco: Rising Bay Area COVID-19 Cases San Francisco Chronicle: Indoor Masking Considerations Amid Summer COVID Wave The Defender: COVID-19 Vaccine Myocarditis Link Autism Action Network: Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine Concerns National Vaccine Information Center Fair Health White Paper on COVID-19 Mortality   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/    The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss a controversial Reuters article revealing a Pentagon-led secret anti-vax campaign aimed at discrediting China's Sinovac vaccine. They delve into the ethical implications and consequences of this campaign, highlighting the impact on public trust in vaccines.  The hosts also address recent COVID-19 trends, vaccination debates, and the importance of maintaining routine childhood immunizations amidst the pandemic.   List of Resources Reuters Article: Pentagon Ran Secret Anti Vax Campaign to Undermine China During the Pandemic CDC COVID-19 Data Tracker American Academy of Pediatrics: COVID-19 Vaccine Recommendations WHO: Measles CDC: Polio Vaccine Information American Academy of Pediatrics: Routine Childhood Vaccinations NIH: COVID-19 Vaccines and Natural Immunity Johns Hopkins Medicine: COVID-19 and Children Harvard Medical School: Vaccines and Immunizations UK Health Security Agency: Measles and Pertussis Outbreaks   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/    The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard's latest podcast episode revisits the early COVID-19 predictions of Dr. John Ioannidis, a prominent figure known for his controversial stance on herd immunity and the pandemic's severity. Howard plays clips from Ioannidis' interviews and writings, highlighting significant discrepancies between his optimistic projections and the actual outcomes of the pandemic. The episode also addresses Ioannidis' views on vaccine side effects, contrasting them with the broader scientific consensus. Howard provides a thorough fact-check, drawing from various sources to debunk misleading claims and emphasize the importance of evidence-based approaches to public health. List of Resources Dr. John Ioannidis' interview on "Perspectives on the Pandemic" (April 17, 2020) "A Fiasco in the Making: As the Coronavirus Pandemic Takes Hold, We Are Making Decisions Without Reliable Data" by Dr. John Ioannidis (Stat News, March 17, 2020) "Coronavirus Disease 2019: The Harms of Exaggerated Information and Non-Evidence-Based Measures" by Dr. John Ioannidis (March 19, 2020) "COVID Cases Up 250% in Two Months: This Variant Is Harder to Duck" (The Gothamist, July 4, 2024) "COVID Levels in Bay Area Wastewater Now as High as Winter Peak" (Bay Area News, July 2024) "More ER Patients in Florida Test Positive for COVID: The Surge Is Different This Time" (Florida Health News, July 2024) NIH Study: "Reinfections from the Virus that Causes COVID-19 Likely Have Similar Severity as the Original Infection" (July 11, 2024) "COVID Vax Not Linked to Sudden Deaths in Young Adults" (MedPage Today, 2024) "Hundreds of Young Americans Have Now Been Killed by the Coronavirus Data Shows" (Washington Post, April 8, 2020) Dr. Ioannidis' statements in various interviews and articles (April 2020 - June 2020) Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent critically examine the Great Barrington Declaration, a controversial document that proposed achieving herd immunity by allowing COVID-19 to spread among low-risk populations. They explore the impracticalities and dangers of this plan, the public's rejection of it, and the declaration's failure to protect vulnerable individuals. The discussion highlights the unrealistic expectations of the declaration's authors and the real-world consequences of their recommendations. This episode underscores the importance of practical, evidence-based public health strategies.   Resources The Great Barrington Declaration - Original document outlining the plan for achieving herd immunity through natural infection. Medscape Article on Biden's Cognitive State - A piece discussing the speculation about President Biden's cognitive state during the pandemic. Science-Based Medicine Articles - Analysis and critiques of the Great Barrington Declaration and its premises. House Report: The Atlas Dogma - A detailed examination of Dr. Scott Atlas's influence on the Trump administration's COVID-19 policies. Changing Age Distribution of the COVID-19 Pandemic - Study highlighting the spread of COVID-19 among different age groups and its implications. Kit Yates' Modeling Study - A study identifying the flaws in shielding strategies like the Great Barrington Declaration's focused protection. Voices for Vaccines - Noah Louis Ferdinand's series on the shortcomings of focus protection strategies. Newsweek Article: How Fauci Fooled America - An article representing the Great Barrington Declaration authors' criticism of Dr. Anthony Fauci. Florida Delta Wave Reports - News articles discussing the impact of the Delta wave in Florida, including school closures and record deaths. CDC Guidelines and Recommendations - Official guidelines on COVID-19 prevention and vaccination strategies. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent critically examine the premature declarations of herd immunity made by various doctors during the COVID-19 pandemic. They revisit statements by Dr. Marty McCary, Dr. Monica Gandhi, Dr. Lucy McBride, and others who incorrectly claimed that the pandemic was nearly over, even as new variants like Delta and Omicron emerged. The hosts discuss the impact of these false claims on public health and trust in medical professionals, emphasizing the need for accurate information and responsible communication. They explore how these declarations contributed to complacency and undermined efforts to control the virus. The episode underscores the importance of accountability and the role of hindsight in evaluating past public health strategies.   Resources Great Barrington Declaration Articles by Dr. Marty McCary: "Natural immunity to COVID is powerful. Policymakers seem afraid to say so." "We'll have herd immunity by April." "Risk of COVID is now very low. It's time to stop living in fear." "The Power of Natural Immunity" Articles by Dr. Monica Gandhi: "Stop panicking about COVID-19 variants" "The reassuring data on the Delta variant" "The cautious case for COVID optimism" Article by Dr. Lucy McBride: "I've been yearning for an end of the pandemic. Now that it's here, I'm a little afraid." Dr. John Mandrola's tweets and articles on the end of the pandemic Scott Atlas's articles: "Reentry After the Panic, Paying the Health Price of Extreme Isolation" "The Data Is In, Stop the Panic and End the Total Isolation" Urgency of Normal initiative Vinay Prasad's tweets and articles on the end of the pandemic Videos and interviews from various media outlets featuring the mentioned doctors Twitter feeds and public statements of the discussed doctors for further context. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

This episode of "We Want Them Infected" explores the early pandemic predictions made by Dr. John Ioannidis and the subsequent misinformation that spread from credible academic sources to conspiracy theorists and political figures. Hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orant analyze Ioannidis's claims, such as the prediction that only 40,000 Americans would die from COVID-19 and the assertion that most deaths were not directly caused by the virus. They also discuss the impact of these predictions on public perception and policy. The episode includes an open invitation for doctors criticized on the podcast to join for a civil and evidence-based debate, highlighting the importance of accurate information and scientific integrity.   List of Resources Stat News Article by Dr. John Ioannidis: "A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data" - March 17, 2020. BMJ Article by Dr. Ioannidis: "Coronavirus 2019: the harms of exaggerated information and non-evidence-based measures" - March 19, 2020. Science-Based Medicine Blog: Articles by Jonathan Howard critiquing pandemic misinformation. Fareed Zakaria Interview with Dr. Ioannidis: "Why the coronavirus models aren't totally accurate" - April 9, 2020. Neil Ferguson's COVID-19 Model: Early pandemic predictions and their context. Fox News Segment: Mark Levin's introduction of Dr. Ioannidis and the subsequent interview. CDC Report: COVID-19 deaths and comorbidities. QAnon Social Media: Misinformation posts regarding COVID-19 death statistics. President Trump's Retweets: Amplification of COVID-19 misinformation. Santa Clara Antibody Study: Analysis and critiques of the study's findings. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss Jonathan's recent experience of being cancelled, censored, and silenced. Jonathan shares his story about being disinvited from speaking at a conference because his talk was considered "too political." The conference organizers, fearing backlash from powerful politicians and the potential negative impact on their organization, decided to cancel his talk. Jonathan challenges prominent figures like Bari Weiss, who advocate for free speech, to come to his defense. The episode critiques the misinformation spread by prominent doctors during the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing the contrast between genuine scientific discourse and the misleading information propagated by some well-known figures. Jonathan highlights how these doctors, despite their prestigious credentials, have contributed to the spread of COVID-19 misinformation and have influenced public health policies negatively. He contrasts their influence with that of known anti-vaxxers like Kelly Brogan, noting that while the latter's influence was predictable, the former's was more insidious due to their respected positions. The episode also underscores the real-world consequences of such misinformation, comparing it to the imaginary world these doctors seemed to inhabit. Jonathan and Wendy discuss the importance of accurate information and the dangers of allowing political influences to dictate scientific discourse. Key Points: Jonathan Howard's Cancellation: Jonathan was disinvited from a conference because his planned talk was deemed too political and potentially controversial. Challenge to Free Speech Advocates: Jonathan calls on Bari Weiss and other free speech advocates to defend his right to speak and challenge the silencing of scientific discourse. Critique of COVID-19 Misinformation: The episode criticizes doctors like Jay Bhattacharya, Vinay Prasad, and Scott Atlas for spreading misinformation about COVID-19, comparing their approach to that of known anti-vaxxers. Real-World Consequences: The discussion highlights the dangers of misinformation and the impact of political influence on scientific discourse and public health policies. Contrast with Anti-Vaxxers: The episode contrasts the influence of mainstream doctors spreading misinformation with that of known anti-vaxxers, emphasizing the former's more insidious impact due to their respected positions. Resources Mentioned: Jonathan Howard's Articles: Science Based Medicine - Platform where Jonathan publishes his articles critiquing COVID-19 misinformation. Key Figures Critiqued: Jay Bhattacharya Vinay Prasad Scott Atlas Bari Weiss John Ioannidis Martin Kulldorff Jeffrey Flier Referenced Media: JAMA Network - Journal of the American Medical Association, which hosted an interview with Jay Bhattacharya. The Hill - Publication that featured Scott Atlas's article "Re-entry after the panic." Related Movements and Concepts: "We Want Them Infected" Movement - Refers to the controversial approach of deliberately infecting young and healthy individuals to achieve herd immunity. Anti-Vaccine Movement - Mentioned in relation to Kelly Brogan and the disinformation dozen identified by the Center for Countering Digital Hate. By exploring these topics and resources, listeners can gain a deeper understanding of the complexities and controversies surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic and the broader implications for scientific discourse and public health.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent focus on the escalating hostility towards Dr. Anthony Fauci, spurred by political rhetoric and the divisive stances of certain doctors advocating for herd immunity. They explore the history of Fauci's comments on masks, the critiques from the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration, and the broader implications of these conflicts for public health. The episode also touches on the parallels drawn between current public health debates and historical examples of persecuted scientists, emphasizing the detrimental impact of misinformation and personal attacks on public health efforts.   List of Resources Great Barrington Declaration - Website Newsweek Articles - Various critical op-eds on Dr. Fauci by Martin Kulldorff and Jay Bhattacharya Science-Based Medicine - "The Road to Hitler is Paved with Masks and Vaccines" by Jonathan Howard Wikipedia - Information on Dr. Anthony Fauci and the Great Barrington Declaration Reason Magazine - Video titled "Stop Trusting Public Health" featuring Vinay Prasad Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) - COVID-19 Information National Institutes of Health (NIH) - Profile of Dr. Anthony Fauci Twitter - Official profiles of Dr. Martin Kulldorff, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, and Dr. Vinay Prasad Books - "The Great Influenza" by John M. Barry, for historical context on pandemics and public health Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dive into the pro-infection movement that supports infecting unvaccinated children to achieve herd immunity. They discuss the recent conviction of Trump and the public's reaction, highlighting the parallels between political and medical misinformation.  The episode critically examines statements made by figures like Dr. Scott Atlas and Dr. Vinay Prasad, pointing out their inconsistencies and the potential harm of their advocacy. The hosts stress the importance of relying on scientific evidence and the dangers posed by spreading misleading information.   Resources CDC COVID-19 Information: CDC World Health Organization (WHO) COVID-19 Updates: WHO Johns Hopkins University COVID-19 Tracker: Johns Hopkins Science-Based Medicine Articles: Science-Based Medicine FDA COVID-19 Vaccine Information: FDA Dr. Scott Atlas Interview with Tucker Carlson: Tucker Carlson Interview Vinay Prasad's Articles on COVID-19: Vinay Prasad ZDoggMD YouTube Channel: ZDoggMD Dr. John Ioannidis's Research: John Ioannidis National Institute of Health (NIH) COVID-19 Resources: NIH Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

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Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss the problematic communication surrounding COVID-19 vaccines in 2021. They highlight the overly optimistic claims made by several doctors and how these statements contributed to public mistrust when vaccines did not completely eliminate transmission or provide long-term immunity. The episode critiques the medical community's handling of vaccine messaging and emphasizes the importance of honesty and caution in public health communications.   List of Resources: CDC COVID-19 Vaccine Information: Website: CDC COVID-19 Vaccine Information Description: The official CDC page provides up-to-date information on COVID-19 vaccines, including guidance on vaccine effectiveness, safety, and recommendations. World Health Organization (WHO) COVID-19 Vaccines: Website: WHO COVID-19 Vaccines Description: The WHO provides global information on COVID-19 vaccines, including updates on vaccine approvals, distribution, and international vaccination efforts. Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center: Website: Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center Description: Johns Hopkins offers comprehensive data and research on COVID-19, including vaccine distribution, effectiveness, and public health impacts. Nature: COVID-19 Vaccine Research: Website: Nature COVID-19 Vaccine Research Description: Nature provides access to scientific research articles and studies on COVID-19 vaccines, including their development, trials, and effectiveness. New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) COVID-19 Vaccine Articles: Website: NEJM COVID-19 Vaccine Articles Description: NEJM features peer-reviewed articles and research studies on COVID-19 vaccines, offering insights into their clinical trials and real-world effectiveness. Science-Based Medicine: COVID-19 Vaccine Debates: Website: Science-Based Medicine COVID-19 Vaccine Debates Description: This platform provides evidence-based discussions and critiques on various aspects of COVID-19 vaccines, including public health messaging and misinformation. BMJ: COVID-19 Vaccine Coverage: Website: BMJ COVID-19 Vaccine Coverage Description: The BMJ offers articles and opinion pieces on COVID-19 vaccines, addressing issues such as vaccine hesitancy, public health policies, and clinical findings. MedlinePlus: COVID-19 Vaccines: Website: MedlinePlus COVID-19 Vaccines Description: MedlinePlus provides consumer-friendly information on COVID-19 vaccines, including how they work, possible side effects, and vaccination guidelines. American Medical Association (AMA) COVID-19 Resource Center: Website: AMA COVID-19 Resource Center Description: The AMA offers resources for healthcare professionals and the public on COVID-19 vaccines, including policy updates, clinical guidance, and educational materials. Healthline: COVID-19 Vaccine Updates: Website: Healthline COVID-19 Vaccine Updates Description: Healthline provides updated news and information on COVID-19 vaccines, covering developments in vaccine research, distribution, and public health recommendations. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent tackle the contentious issue of school closures during the COVID-19 pandemic. They explore the narrative that school closures were merely a choice influenced by cautious politicians and unions, contrasting it with the reality that the virus itself forced many schools to shut down. The hosts discuss the devastating effects on students, teachers, and families, highlighting cases of illness, death, and the rise in COVID orphans.    They also criticize certain medical professionals for advocating mass infection strategies and collaborating with child labor proponents. The episode aims to debunk pandemic revisionism and emphasize the real costs of the pandemic on education and public health.   Resources "COVID has left thousands of U.S. children orphans. Few states are addressing the crisis," The Guardian, 2023. "New York City students are missing school in record numbers," The New York Times, 2021. "Child COVID deaths more than doubled in Florida as kids returned to the classroom," Politico, 2021. "Teen Suicide Plummeted During COVID-19 School Closures, New Study Finds," Forbes, 2023. "Let the Kids Work," Jeffrey Tucker, 2016. "Was Closing Schools an Obvious and Colossal Mistake?" Science-Based Medicine, 2022. "We Want Them Infected: The Realities of COVID-19 School Policies," We Want Them Infected Podcast, 2024. "The case against COVID tests for the young and healthy," Jay Bhattacharya and Martin Kulldorf, 2020. "Should we let children catch Omicron?" Vinay Prasad, 2022. "Leak Brownstone Institute Emails Reveal Support for Child Labor and Underage Smoking," Walker Bragman, 2022. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

The episode explores the complex narrative surrounding COVID-19's impact on cardiac health and the conflicting views on vaccine-induced myocarditis.  By examining the discourse and publications of medical conservatives, the hosts illustrate a significant discrepancy in how COVID-19 cardiac problems are portrayed compared to those related to the vaccine. Highlighting specific cases and statistical misinterpretations presented by doctors like Prasad and Mandrola, the episode argues that such narratives could lead to public misunderstanding about the risks of COVID-19 compared to the relatively minor risks associated with the vaccine. The discussion extends to the broader implications of such medical communications during crises, emphasizing the need for balanced, data-driven information.   List of Resources: Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA): Studies on COVID-19 vaccination and cardiac health. CDC Reports: Data on vaccine-induced myocarditis. Science Based Medicine: Articles analyzing medical claims and COVID-19. Medical Literature: Research papers on COVID-19 induced cardiac problems and vaccine side effects. Social Media and Public Statements: Analyses of tweets and public communications from Drs. Prasad and Mandrola.   Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent explore the concerns around vaccine myocarditis in children, emphasizing the rarity and mild nature of this side effect in the context of broader COVID-19 impacts.  They provide a detailed analysis of the incidence and severity of COVID-19 among different age groups, underlining the disproportionate effects on black and Hispanic children.  The hosts critically examine the statistical representation of COVID-related deaths and hospitalizations, shedding light on underestimation and overestimation issues. By comparing the effects of the disease and the side effects of the vaccine, they argue for the importance of vaccination, supported by numerous studies indicating lower risks of severe outcomes from vaccination compared to infection.  The episode serves as an informative session on making informed health decisions based on scientific evidence.   List of Resources: CDC Reports and Investigations: Examination of COVID death certificates and hospitalization rates during the pandemic. "Real World Analysis: COVID-19 vaccine is strongly effective for children and adolescents during Delta and Omicron": Published study from the University of Pennsylvania, highlighting vaccine effectiveness. "IL-1RA antibodies in myocarditis after SARS-CoV-2 vaccination": Study from the New England Journal of Medicine, focusing on diagnostic criteria and outcomes "Medical Conservatives: a high rate of COVID myocarditis is 'good news'; a low rate of vaccine myocarditis is 'deeply concerning'": Article by Jonathan Howard on science-based medicine, addressing misconceptions and providing extensive references on the topic. American Heart Association and American Academy of Pediatrics Statements: Official responses to the vaccine myocarditis data, emphasizing its rarity and mild impact compared to COVID-19.   Connect with us further on https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

This episode of "We Want Them Infected" features a critical examination of the role and challenges of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. Hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orange discuss how the pandemic has tested the limits of RCTs, which are often considered the gold standard in medical research. They address the ethical concerns that arise when implementing RCTs during a crisis, such as the risk to participants and the feasibility of obtaining informed consent under emergency conditions. Jonathan shares his experience participating in an RCT for the AstraZeneca vaccine, highlighting both the personal commitment involved and the broader implications of such trials. The conversation also touches on the practical challenges faced by medical teams during the pandemic, including resource limitations and the psychological toll on healthcare workers. The hosts critique the weaponization of RCT rhetoric to undermine public health measures, discussing specific cases where RCTs were demanded as the only valid proof of effectiveness, despite the urgent need for timely action. They emphasize the importance of balancing scientific rigor with ethical responsibility and practicality, advocating for adaptive research methods that can respond to the dynamic nature of a global health emergency.   List of Resources: Journal Articles on RCTs - Research papers that discuss the methodology, outcomes, and ethical considerations of randomized controlled trials. COVID-19 Studies - A collection of published studies specifically related to COVID-19 treatments and vaccine trials. Ethics in Medical Research - Books and articles that explore ethical dilemmas in conducting medical research during pandemics. History of RCTs - Publications detailing the development and evolution of randomized controlled trials in medical science. Public Health Policy During Pandemics - Resources that examine the intersection of public health policy, research methodology, and crisis management. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

The focus of today's episode turned to Dr. Vinay Prasad, a once-distinguished oncologist who has become a leading advocate for the controversial pro-infection movement. Hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent criticized Prasad's shift towards advocating for natural COVID-19 infection over vaccination in children, an approach they argue is both unethical and scientifically unfounded. The discussion highlighted Prasad's journey from a reputable medical expert to a figure promoting potentially harmful public health strategies. By tracing his public statements and writings, the hosts illustrated how his views have evolved, seemingly influenced by anti-vaccine rhetoric and the misinterpretation of scientific data. They pointed out the contradiction between Prasad's earlier professional achievements and his current advocacy, which includes supporting exposure to COVID-19 in children as a means to achieve herd immunity. The episode also touched on the broader implications of promoting such ideas, particularly the risk they pose to pediatric health and the potential erosion of public trust in vaccinations and established medical guidance. The hosts argued that this approach could lead to increased susceptibility to preventable diseases, not just for individuals but for public health at large. This stark transformation in Prasad's professional stance serves as a cautionary tale about the influence of misinformation in medicine and the delicate balance required in public health policy. As the debate over natural immunity versus vaccination continues, the episode underscores the importance of grounding public health strategies in robust scientific evidence and ethical considerations.   List of Resources Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC): Updates on COVID-19 vaccinations and health guidelines. World Health Organization (WHO): Information on global health standards and COVID-19 response. Johns Hopkins University Coronavirus Resource Center: Real-time data and expert analysis on COVID-19 trends. National Institutes of Health (NIH): Research and guidelines on COVID-19 and vaccinations. Peer-reviewed medical journals (such as The Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine): Research articles on COVID-19, vaccinations, and public health policy. Books on epidemiology and public health policy: For comprehensive understanding and historical context on pandemics and health strategies. Science Based Medicine: Critical analysis of medical treatments, including debates on vaccination and natural immunity. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard delves into the controversial tenure of Dr. Scott Atlas as President Trump's coronavirus advisor. Atlas, who lacked a background in infectious diseases, was a proponent of achieving herd immunity by allowing the virus to spread among low-risk populations—a strategy considered dangerous by many health experts. The podcast critiques Atlas's approach, which ignored the potential for severe consequences across all age groups and disproportionately impacted vulnerable populations. Howard points out that Atlas's policies were not grounded in solid scientific consensus but were instead influenced by a misinterpretation of herd immunity concepts. The episode also touches on the real-world outcomes of these policies, such as increased COVID-19 cases and deaths that could have been mitigated with more prudent measures. Additionally, Howard highlights the shift in public discourse as some supporters of Atlas's strategies attempt to reframe their past positions to appear more sympathetic towards children's education rather than admitting to their original intentions of using young people as a means to an end. This analysis is critical not just of Atlas but of the broader administration's handling of the pandemic, suggesting that a more measured, scientifically sound approach could have saved countless lives. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

The conversation scrutinizes the advocacy for herd immunity as a response to COVID-19, highlighting the ethical and practical issues with targeting unvaccinated children and young adults for infection. It explores the aftermath of the Great Barrington Declaration, including minimized concerns for COVID-19 variants and opposition to vaccinations for children.  Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent also address the negative repercussions on healthcare services and education, underscoring the dissonance between initial pandemic strategies and subsequent reassessments of those approaches.  The hosts emphasize the importance of reflecting on the pandemic's handling to understand the implications of decision-making during health crises.   List of Resources: Great Barrington Declaration - An open letter advocating for a herd immunity approach to handling the COVID-19 pandemic. CDC Reports - Documents detailing the impact of COVID-19 on healthcare systems and the effectiveness of vaccines. Science-Based Medicine Articles - Analyses critiquing the scientific basis and implications of pandemic policies. Interviews with Dr. Scott Atlas - Various media appearances where Dr. Atlas discusses his views on COVID-19 management. House Sub-Select Committee Report - "The Atlas Dogma" report, evaluating Dr. Atlas's influence on the U.S. pandemic response. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent engage in a comprehensive critique of the movement advocating for herd immunity through natural infection among unvaccinated populations. They dissect the flawed arguments presented in early pandemic responses, highlighting Dr. Jay Bhattacharya's controversial statements and the backlash from the scientific community. The episode critically analyzes the Great Barrington Declaration, its implications, and its failure to address the complexities of COVID-19 management effectively. Through their discussion, Howard and Orant explore the broader consequences of misinformation and the ethical considerations in public health strategies, emphasizing the importance of vaccination and accurate scientific communication.   List of Resources Great Barrington Declaration: A controversial statement advocating for focused protection and herd immunity through natural infection. Dr. Jay Bhattacharya's Writings: Articles and tweets from Dr. Bhattacharya offering a perspective on COVID-19's fatality rate and management strategies. COVID-19 Vaccine Studies: Research on the efficacy and importance of vaccination, especially in preventing severe outcomes among vulnerable populations. Public Health Response Critiques: Analyses and critiques of the various public health responses to the COVID-19 pandemic, including the effectiveness of lockdowns, mask mandates, and vaccination campaigns. Ethical Considerations in Pandemic Management: Discussions on the ethical dilemmas faced by public health officials and the general public during the COVID-19 pandemic. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent critically examine the strategy of intentionally infecting unvaccinated populations to reach herd immunity. The discussion revisits predictions made by health experts in the early stages of the pandemic, highlighting how optimistic expectations often fell short in the face of evolving challenges, such as the emergence of new variants. The conversation covers significant dates and statements from various health experts, analyzing their implications and the reality of their outcomes. The hosts discuss the ethical and practical considerations of exposing children and young adults to the virus, questioning the morality and feasibility of such approaches. Reflecting on the journey of the pandemic, the episode emphasizes the complexity of herd immunity as a concept and its role in public health strategy. It calls for a nuanced understanding of herd immunity, recognizing the importance of vaccination and the limitations of natural infection in controlling the spread of COVID-19. Through this detailed examination, "We Want Them Infected" provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of herd immunity, challenging previous assumptions and advocating for a more cautious and evidence-based approach to ending the pandemic.   List of Resources Articles by health experts mentioned in the podcast (e.g., Dr. John Ioannidis, Marty McCary, Monica Gandhi, Dr. Lucy McBride). Science-Based Medicine website for articles on herd immunity and COVID-19 predictions. Johns Hopkins resources on herd immunity and vaccination strategies. The Great Barrington Declaration and its frequently asked questions for perspectives on herd immunity. CDC and WHO guidance on COVID-19, vaccination, and herd immunity. Research studies on the effectiveness of natural immunity and vaccination against COVID-19 variants.   Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard takes a solo dive into the rationale behind some medical professionals' controversial endorsement of natural COVID-19 infection over vaccination to achieve herd immunity. Addressing a query from a listener, the podcast episode aims to uncover the motivations behind such a high-risk strategy, beyond the commonly cited reasons of greed and political influence. Throughout the episode, Howard examines the stance of several respected doctors from prestigious institutions who surprisingly supported the notion of purposeful exposure to the virus among the unvaccinated, particularly children and young adults. This approach starkly contrasts with the global push for vaccination and stringent public health measures. Central to the discussion is Dr. John Ioannidis, known for his early pandemic research that suggested COVID-19's infection fatality rate was significantly lower than initially feared, likening it to that of seasonal influenza. Ioannidis's viewpoints, including skepticism towards lockdowns and the emphasis on the severe potential side effects of pandemic containment measures, are dissected to understand the underpinning logic of the pro-infection movement. Howard critically navigates through Ioannidis's and others' assertions, contrasting them with the devastating impact of COVID-19 as it unfolded, highlighting the dangers of underestimating the virus's lethality and overestimating herd immunity's achievability without vaccines. The episode concludes on a reflective note, pondering the lessons learned from this pandemic approach and the importance of humility and adaptability in the face of evolving scientific evidence.   List of Resources: Perspectives on the Pandemic, Dr. John Ioannidis Interview on YouTube. COVID-19 Antibody Seroprevalence in Santa Clara County, California - Study by Dr. John Ioannidis. The Great Barrington Declaration website. Science-Based Medicine blog - Analysis and critique of pandemic responses. CDC COVID-19 Response - Official data and guidelines. WHO COVID-19 Dashboard - Global statistics and research updates. "Coronavirus Disease 2019: The Harms of Exaggerated Information and Non-Evidence Based Measures" - Article by Dr. John Ioannidis. The Washington Post - Articles discussing Dr. Ioannidis's pandemic viewpoints. Stat News - "A Fiasco in the Making? As the Coronavirus Pandemic Takes Hold, We Are Making Decisions Without Reliable Data" by Dr. John Ioannidis. Fareed Zakaria GPS - Interviews discussing the pandemic response. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals.   By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss the complex and controversial strategies surrounding COVID-19, particularly focusing on the approach to infect unvaccinated individuals for herd immunity. They critique the Great Barrington Declaration's focus on protecting the elderly and other high-risk groups through measures like testing, reduced staff rotation, and non-admittance of COVID-19 affected individuals into nursing homes. They highlight the challenges and impracticalities of these measures, citing real-world examples and expert opinions. The conversation sheds light on the broader ethical and logistical issues in managing the pandemic and protecting vulnerable populations.   List of Resources: Great Barrington Declaration: Original document proposing focused protection as a way to manage the COVID-19 pandemic. Voices for Vaccines: Articles by Noah Lewis Ferdinand critiquing the Great Barrington Declaration. CDC Reports: Data and analyses on COVID-19 transmission dynamics and vaccination effectiveness. The New York Times: Articles on the ongoing challenges faced by nursing homes during the pandemic. Health and Human Services Reports: Insights into infection control lapses and staffing shortages in nursing homes. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent tackle the controversial Great Barrington Declaration, which proposes allowing COVID-19 to spread among unvaccinated children and young adults to achieve herd immunity. This strategy, according to the declaration, would protect vulnerable populations through "focused protection." Howard and Orent explore the ethical and logistical challenges of this approach, highlighting the difficulty in segregating vulnerable individuals from the rest of the population. They question the feasibility of creating an "impenetrable wall" to shield those at risk and critique the declaration's simplistic measures such as frequent testing in nursing homes, reduced staff rotation, and the delivery of essentials to the elderly. The hosts argue that the declaration overlooks the complexity of COVID-19 management, offering solutions that are either too vague, impractical, or have been actively undermined by its proponents. Through their discussion, they expose the declaration's failure to account for the broader social and economic implications of letting the virus run rampant among younger, supposedly less vulnerable groups. Ultimately, Howard and Orent's analysis reveals the Great Barrington Declaration as a flawed strategy, lacking in comprehensive planning and sensitivity to the realities of the pandemic. Their conversation underscores the importance of a balanced and ethical approach to public health that protects all individuals, regardless of their perceived vulnerability to COVID-19.   List of Resources: The Great Barrington Declaration - The official document outlining the declaration's approach to COVID-19 management. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) - Offers updated guidelines and information on COVID-19, including measures to protect vulnerable populations. World Health Organization (WHO) - Provides a global perspective on COVID-19 management strategies, including critiques of herd immunity. Science-Based Medicine - Features critical analyses of health policies, including an article on the Great Barrington Declaration. New England Journal of Medicine - Contains detailed protocols for COVID-19 vaccine trials, offering insight into the scientific rigor of pandemic management. MedPage Today - Includes discussions and debates on the Great Barrington Declaration and herd immunity strategies. Hoover Institute - Hosts interviews and discussions with proponents of the Great Barrington Declaration, offering insights into their perspectives. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent tackled the contentious issue of measles outbreaks in New Orleans and Florida, placing a spotlight on the unconventional public health advice dispensed by Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo. Ladapo's guidance, which diverged from traditional outbreak management by allowing unvaccinated children to attend school, sparked widespread concern among public health professionals and vaccination advocates. The discussion extended beyond the immediate crisis, addressing the influence of anti-vaccine rhetoric, notably from figures associated with the Great Barrington Declaration, on public health strategies. The episode critically examined the implications of such policies on the broader goal of maintaining high vaccination rates against preventable diseases. Howard and Orant highlighted the danger of conflating the discourse around COVID-19 vaccines with other vaccination efforts, suggesting that such debates could erode trust in vaccines more generally. They pointed out the irony in the arguments of some anti-vaccine advocates, who, despite lacking expertise in infectious diseases, have significantly influenced public perceptions and policies. By dissecting statements from various public figures and comparing the responses to measles and COVID-19, the hosts underscored the inconsistency and potential harm in minimizing the impact of COVID-19 on children while overstating the safety of foregoing measles vaccinations. The podcast served as a call to action for a more informed and consistent approach to public health, emphasizing the necessity of trusting scientific consensus over politically or ideologically motivated guidance. In delving into the complex landscape of vaccine hesitancy, the episode illuminated the critical role of trust and accurate information in combating infectious diseases. The hosts' discussion was a stark reminder of the challenges facing public health officials in navigating the delicate balance between individual freedoms and the collective good in the fight against preventable diseases.   List of Resources: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC): For the latest guidelines, data, and research on measles and other vaccine-preventable diseases.   World Health Organization (WHO): Provides global insights on vaccination, disease outbreaks, and health policy recommendations.   The History of Vaccines: An educational resource by The College of Physicians of Philadelphia detailing the history and science of vaccination.   Vaccine Confidence Project: Research and reports on public confidence in vaccines and the impact of misinformation.   Science-Based Medicine: Articles and critiques on medical practices, including the discussion on vaccines vs. anti-vaccine movements.   STAT News: For in-depth health reporting, including articles by Helen Branswell mentioned in the show.   The Lancet: Peer-reviewed medical journal with research and commentary on health, policy, and diseases.   Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health: Offers resources and courses on epidemiology, infectious diseases, and public health principles.   National Foundation for Infectious Diseases (NFID): Information on disease prevention, including vaccination awareness campaigns.   Immunize.org: Provides practical and factual vaccine information for healthcare professionals and the public. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.  The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

A contrarian doctor “just asking questions.” Super reasonable. Certainly not anti-vax, just a regular guy who grievance-mongers about quarantine measures and mocks people afraid of long Covid. Vinay Prasad cuts a different type of figure on the conspiracy-influencer stage. He fits right in with his pal, the charismatic guru-esque Dr. Zubin Damania, and might just pop up in your YouTube feed alongside Andrew Huberman and Peter Attia. Prasad demands unrealistic randomized controlled trial data for everything on his podcast, including protecting ICU patients from Covid via visiting restrictions. Who's volunteering for that control group?! Julian sits down with returning guest, Dr. Jonathan Howard, the author of We Want Them Infected. They talk about Prasad (among others) who play a sensationalist science-distortion role in the digital economy and their connections to libertarian think tanks like AIER (architects of the Great Barrington Declaration) and Brownstone Institute—who's founder, Jeffrey Tucker, wants to repeal laws around child labor and underage smoking. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dive into the contentious approach Sweden took towards managing the COVID-19 pandemic. Sweden's strategy, characterized by an avoidance of lockdowns and an emphasis on herd immunity, has been a subject of international scrutiny and debate. The hosts explore the implications of keeping schools open, the minimal use of masks, and the lack of social distancing measures in educational settings. As the episode unfolds, Howard and Orent critique the Great Barrington Declaration's influence on Sweden's pandemic policies, challenging the declaration's assertions with evidence of the strategy's shortcomings. The tragic outcomes, particularly the high death tolls in nursing homes and the subsequent reversal of policies, are highlighted to question the initial underestimation of the virus's impact. The podcast provides an insightful analysis, urging listeners to consider the complex realities of pandemic management beyond simplistic narratives of success or failure. It serves as a reminder of the critical need for informed and adaptable public health strategies in the face of evolving challenges. List of Resources: CNBC Article (April 22, 2020) - "Sweden Resisted a Lockdown, and Its Capital, Stockholm, is Expected to Reach Herd Immunity in Weeks" Science Article by Gretchen Vogel (October 6, 2020) - "Sweden's Gamble" The Guardian Article by John Henley (June 3, 2020) - "We Should Have Done More: Architect of Sweden's COVID-19 Strategy" International Journal of Education Research (2022) - "No Learning Loss in Sweden During the Pandemic: Evidence from Primary Schools Reading Assessments" Science Based Medicine Article (April 7, 2023) - "Yes, Schools Were Closed in Sweden" Swedish Corona Commission Report - Evaluates Sweden's pandemic response and its impact on nursing homes. Twitter Thread by David Stetson - Discussing Sweden's pandemic restrictions and measures.   Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent explore the contentious issue of achieving herd immunity by infecting unvaccinated children and young adults with COVID-19. This approach, criticized for its ethical and scientific shortcomings, particularly overlooks the significant risks COVID-19 poses to children, contrary to the assertions of some health professionals and the Great Barrington Declaration. Howard and Orent correct a misquote from a previous episode and address disturbing listener feedback, underlining the podcast's role in challenging COVID-19 misinformation. They meticulously debunk the false equivalence between COVID-19 and influenza risks for children, highlighting the greater danger COVID-19 presents, contrary to the minimization by some experts. The discussion emphasizes the overlooked aspects of COVID-19, such as its broader spectrum of severe outcomes beyond death, and critiques the misleading arguments against vaccinating children. The hosts argue that the focus solely on mortality rates by proponents of natural herd immunity ignores the substantial morbidity and long-term effects associated with COVID-19 in children. The episode also critiques the misuse of data and misrepresentation of COVID-19's impact compared to influenza, showcasing the necessity of accurate information and ethical considerations in public health strategies. Howard and Orent's conversation underscores the importance of vaccination and protective measures for all age groups, challenging the dangerous narratives that have undermined public health efforts during the pandemic.   Resources mentioned: Great Barrington Declaration CDC COVID-19 Data Tracker "Science Says Open the Schools" by Dr. Scott Atlas in The Hill "The ill-advised push to vaccinate the young" by Martin Kuhldorf and Dr. Jay Bhattacharya in The Hill Statements from health professionals like Dr. Lucy McBride, Dr. Zubin Damania (ZDogg), and Dr. Vinay Prasad on COVID-19 and influenza comparisons Research and articles discussing COVID-19's impact on children, including hospitalization rates and long-term effects Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dive into the criticisms and negative reviews they have received for their podcast. They discuss accusations of ad hominem attacks and misrepresentations made by doctors they have quoted in their discussions on pandemic policies and vaccination strategies. Dr. Howard begins by acknowledging the seriousness of the pandemic and the consequences of words spoken during such times. He highlights that some individuals treated the pandemic as a game, engaging in personal attacks instead of focusing on constructive discussions. The main focus of the episode is responding to a negative review they received from Christian Siegel, who criticized their representation of the Great Barrington Declaration supporters' views on vaccination and pandemic policies. Dr. Howard uses this review as a starting point to address similar criticisms he has received. Dr. Howard points out that his podcast has not engaged in ad hominem attacks or insults, but rather aims to accurately quote and discuss the views of doctors and experts. He quotes Winston Churchill, emphasizing the importance of free speech and the willingness to accept responses and disagreements. The episode highlights the common responses Dr. Howard has received from doctors he has quoted. These responses include ignoring his work, resorting to juvenile insults, and misrepresenting his views. Dr. Howard addresses each of these responses, providing examples from his interactions with specific doctors. One notable example is Dr. Stephan Baral, who accused Dr. Howard of promoting his book during the pandemic. Dr. Howard counters this claim and questions the idea that writing a book during the pandemic is a path to riches. Another doctor, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, is cited for misrepresenting Dr. Howard's views and engaging in personal attacks. Dr. Howard provides evidence of Bhattacharya's inaccurate representations and questions his stance on vaccination for children. The episode also delves into the criticisms made by Dr. Francis Ballou, a virologist and chair of computational biology at University College London. Dr. Ballou accused Dr. Howard of misrepresenting views and being a grifter with no domain expertise. Dr. Howard challenges these accusations and highlights the importance of accurately quoting experts. This sheds light on the challenges and criticisms faced by Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent. It emphasizes the need for respectful dialogue and open discussion during a pandemic. Resources mentioned: The Great Barrington Declaration Winston Churchill quote on free speech Dr. Stephan Baral's Twitter comments Dr. Jay Bhattacharya's articles and comments Dr. Francis Ballou's criticisms and accusations Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

The COVID-19 pandemic has been a global crisis that has reshaped the way we live and interact with each other. Amid the chaos and uncertainty, various strategies and policies were implemented to curb the spread of the virus. One such strategy was lockdowns, which drew significant attention and debate throughout the pandemic. In this article, we delve into the Great Barrington Declaration, a document that criticized lockdowns as a response to the pandemic and offered an alternative perspective. We examine the arguments presented in the declaration, assess their validity, and explore the consequences of lockdown measures. Lockdowns: Definitions and Historical Context The Great Barrington Declaration begins by defining lockdowns as a set of measures that include closing schools, businesses, restricting travel, imposing curfews, and more. It emphasizes that such restrictions have never led to the eradication of a disease in history. While this claim is generally accurate, it fails to acknowledge the nuances of each pandemic and the various measures taken to combat them. For instance, lockdowns played a role in controlling pneumonic plague outbreaks in Manchuria in the early 20th century. The Efficacy of Lockdowns One of the core arguments in the Great Barrington Declaration is that lockdowns only delay the increase in cases for a finite period and come at a great cost. This perspective downplays the value of delaying the spread of the virus, which provides crucial time for medical advancements, such as vaccines and treatments, to emerge. Lockdowns can help prevent overwhelming healthcare systems, reduce mortality rates, and protect vulnerable populations. Government Responses and Lockdowns The declaration suggests that governments worldwide continued to impose lockdowns, despite their questionable effectiveness. However, it is essential to recognize that governments tailored their responses based on evolving scientific understanding and regional COVID-19 dynamics. Lockdowns were often implemented as a last resort when cases surged and hospital capacities were strained. Physical and Mental Health Impacts The Great Barrington Declaration highlights the physical health harms of lockdowns, including delayed medical care and lower vaccination rates. While there were disruptions in healthcare access, attributing all these issues solely to lockdowns oversimplifies the complex healthcare landscape during the pandemic. Moreover, the declaration minimizes the importance of delaying the virus's spread. Mental Health Impacts The declaration acknowledges the importance of social interactions but fails to address the nuanced impact of COVID-19 itself on mental health. Isolation and fear were widespread during the pandemic, and while mental health issues increased, the relationship between lockdowns and mental health is multifaceted. Some studies suggest that lockdowns may have prevented a surge in teen suicides. The Debate Over School Closures The Great Barrington Declaration argues that school closures disproportionately harm children. While in-person education is valuable, it overlooks the necessity of adapting to the challenges posed by a highly contagious virus. Keeping schools open without proper safety measures would have put students, teachers, and families at risk. Pulling it All Together The Great Barrington Declaration offers a critical perspective on lockdowns during the COVID-19 pandemic. However, it simplifies complex issues and minimizes the importance of delaying the virus's spread and protecting vulnerable populations. A comprehensive evaluation of pandemic responses must consider the evolving science, regional differences, and the need to adapt strategies as new information emerges. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Jonathan Howard is a neurologist and psychiatrist who practices at NYU-Bellevue and posts frequently on Science Based Medicine.Transcript, unedited, with links to audioEric Topol (00:05):Well, hello, Eric Topol with Ground Truths and I'm really pleased to have the chance to talk with Jonathan Howard today, who is a neurologist and psychiatrist at NYU at Bellevue and has written quite an amazing book published a few months months ago called We Want Them Infected, so welcome Jonathan.Jonathan Howard (00:27):Hey, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.Eric Topol (00:30):Yeah, I mean, there's so much to talk about because we're still in the throes of the pandemic with this current wave at least by wastewater levels and no reason to think it isn't by infections at least the second largest in the pandemic course. I guess I want to start off first with you being into the neuropsychiatric world. How did you become, obviously caring for patients with Covid, but how did you decide to become a Covidologist?Jonathan Howard (00:59):Well, I developed a strong interest in the anti-vaccine movement of all things about a decade ago when a doctor who I trained with here at NYU in Bellevue morphed into one of the country's biggest anti-vaccine doctors a woman by the name of Dr. Kelly Brogan. I knew her well and we were friends; She was smart and after she left NYU in Bellevue, she became one of the country's most outspoken anti-vaccine doctors and really started leaving off the wall things that germ theory didn't exist, that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. When Covid struck, she felt that SARS-CoV-2 was not killing people because she doesn't believe any virus kills people and so I became very fascinated about how smart people can believe strange, incorrect things and I dedicated myself to learning everything that I could about the anti-vaccine movement. In 2018, I wrote a book chapter on the anti-vaccine movement with law professor Dorit Reiss.(02:01):And so when the pandemic came around, I was really prepared for all of their arguments, but I got two very important things wrong. I thought the anti-vaccine movement would shrink. I was wrong about that and I was also really caught off guard by the fact that a lot of mainstream physicians started to parrot pandemic anti-vaccine talking points. So all of the stuff that I'd heard about measles and the HPV vaccine, these are benign viruses, the vaccines weren't tested, blah, blah, blah. I started hearing from professors at Stanford, Harvard, UCSF, Johns Hopkins, all about Covid and the Covid vaccine.Eric Topol (02:40):Yeah, we're going to get to some of the leading institutions and individuals within them and how they were part of this, and surprisingly too, of course. Before we do that in the title of your book, We Want Them Infected, it seems to bring in particularly the Great Barrington Declaration that is just protect the vulnerable elderly and don't worry about the rest. Can you restate that declaration and whether that's a core part of what you were writing about?Jonathan Howard (03:21):Yeah, the title of the book is to be taken literally. It comes from a quote by Dr. Paul Alexander, who was an epidemiologist in the Trump administration and he said in July 4th, 2020, before anyone had been vaccinated, infants, kids, teens, young people, young adults, middle age with no conditions, et cetera, have zero to little risk so we want to use them to develop herd, we want them infected. This was formalized in the Great Barrington Declaration, which was written by three doctors, our epidemiologist, none of whom cared for Covid patients, Jay Bhattacharya at Stanford, Martin Kulldorf who at the time was at Harvard, and Sunetra Gupta who is at Oxford. If I could state their plan in the most generous terms, it would be the following that Covid is much more dangerous for certain people, but we can relatively easily identify older people and people with underlying conditions.(04:19):It's much more benign for a healthy 10-year-old, for example and their idea was that you could separate these two groups, the vulnerable and the not vulnerable. If the not vulnerable people were allowed to catch the virus develop natural immunity that would create herd immunity. They said that this would occur in three to six months and in that time, once herd immunity had been achieved, the vulnerable people who have been in theory sheltering at home are in otherwise safe places could reenter society. So it was really the best of both worlds because lives would be saved and schools would be open, the economy would be open. It sounded very good on paper, kind of like my idea of stopping crime by locking up all the bad guys. What could go wrong? It was a very short document. It took about maybe an hour to write.(05:17):I imagine there were some nefarious forces behind it. One of the main instigators of it was a man by the name of Jeffrey Tucker, who sounds like a cartoon villain and he worked at the, I forget, is the American Enterprise Research Institute. It was some right-wing think tank and he is a literally pro child labor. He wrote an article in 2016 called Let the Kids Work, which suggested that children drop out of school to work at Walmart and Chick-fil-A I'm not making that up and he's overtly pro child smoking. He feels that children, teenagers should smoke because it's cool and then they can quit in their twenties before there are any bad harms from it. Needless to say, the Great Barrington's premises that one infection led to permanent immunity didn't really work out so well, but they were very influential. They had already met with President Trump in August of 2020 and the day after their Great Barrington Declaration was signed, they were invited to the White House. This was October 5th, 2020 to meet with Secretary Human Health and Secretary Services, Alex Azar, and they are advisors to Ron DeSantis. They became mini celebrities over the course of the pandemic and it was a very pro infectious movement. As I said, the title of the book, We Want Them Infected, and they did.Eric Topol (06:42):Right. In fact, I debated Martin Kulldorf, one of the three principals of the Great Barrington Declaration. It was interesting because if you go back to that debate we brought out, at least I tried to highlight the many flaws in this. You've mentioned at least one major flaw, which was to this virus. There's not a long-term immunity built by infections. It's just, as we say with vaccines the immunity for neutralizing antibody production and protection from infections and severe Covid is limited duration for four to six months, and at least for the antibodies and maybe the T-cell immunity is longer, but that doesn't necessarily kick in and quickly. So that was one major flaw, but there are many others, so maybe you could just take that apart further. For example, I like your analogy to lock up all the bad guys, but compartmentalizing people is not so easy in life and I think this is a significant concern of the idea that is, while you indicated there may be some merits if things went as planned, but what else was a flaw of that argument or proposition?Jonathan Howard (08:11):So yeah, this could be a 10-hour conversation and I think importantly, we don't have to speak hypothetically here. A lot of defenders of the Great Barrington Declaration will say, oh, we never tried it, but they promised that herd immunity would arrive in three to six months after lockdowns ended. So we don't have to speak theoretically about what would've happened had we done it. Lockdowns ended a while ago and we don't have herd immunity. They were very clear on this. Dr. Kulldorf tweeted in December 2020 that if we use focus protection, the pandemic will be over in three to six months. So, what could have gone wrong if about 250 million unvaccinated Americans contracted Covid simultaneously in October and November of 2020? A lot of things, as we said, they dichotomized people into vulnerable and not vulnerable, but of course it exists on this. The only bad outcome they recognized was death.(09:11):They felt that either you died or you had the sniffle for a few days and you emerged unscathed. Separating vulnerable people from not vulnerable people is a lot easier than it sounds and I think by way of comparison, look at the mRNA vaccine trials. You can read their protocols and the protocols for these trials were 300-400 pages of dense policies and procedures. The Great Barrington Declaration, if you go to their frequently asked questions section, they made some suggestions, which sound great, like older people should have food delivered at home during times of high transmission, but setting up a national or even statewide food delivery program, that's a lot harder than it sounds. When asked about that later, Dr. Bhattacharya has said they could have used DoorDash, for example. So it was just very clear that no serious thought went into this because it was really an unactionable thing.(10:21):It's not as if public health officials had billions of dollars at their disposal and they weren't many dictators. They couldn't set up home food delivery programs overnight like they suggested and two months after the Great Barrington Declaration was published, vaccines became available so it became obsolete. Not that vaccines have turned out to be the perfect panacea that we had hoped for, unfortunately, but the idea that young people should continue to try to get natural low immunity in favor instead of vaccination became at that point obscene, but they still are anti-vaccine for young people and for children, which I find despicable at this point.Eric Topol (11:07):Right, the data is unequivocal that there's benefit across the board. In fact, just last week in JAMA two senior people at FDA, Peter Marks and Robert Califf published the graphs of how across all ages there was reduction in mortality with the vaccines. That gets us to, as you say now into the vaccine era of Covid and one of the things that the anti-vax community jumped on was when we moved from Delta to Omicron where previous Omicron, there was exceptionally good protection from infections, 95%. It was rare for people to get to have spread with the up-to-date vaccine with the third original strain booster. But with Omicron that fell apart and if infections were breakthroughs were exceedingly common, this led to tremendous fodder for the anti-vax saying the vaccines don't work beyond the false claims that they were, whether they're killing people or gene therapy or microchips or all these other crazy notions. But can you talk to that? Because if you still protect against deaths, Long Covid and hospitalizations, that seems to be pretty important. It's disappointing, and obviously we need ways to prevent infections or otherwise we don't really have an effective exit strategy for the pandemic. This was used and still is used today as a reason that vaccines are worthless if indeed, they're not even dangerous.Jonathan Howard (12:55):The vaccines when they were initially came out, as we all know, were 95% effective, but the vaccines were brand new and the virus was brand new. All of this was less than a year old and what's interesting is, unfortunately, I realized this after I wrote my book, but I published an article about this on Science-Based Medicine where I've been blogging throughout the pandemic. So, if anyone can go there, I wrote an article on October 1st, 2023, called over-hyping vaccines it wasn't pro-vaccine it was pro stop worrying about Covid. So almost all of the doctors that I mentioned in this book vastly overhyped vaccines as soon as they came out saying they were 100% effective against severe disease, that they completely blocked transmission and just really overselling the vaccine saying that they're going to definitely end the pandemic and mocking anyone who disagreed. Now these doctors are saying, oh, there's a lack of trust in the medical community.(13:57):We need to rebuild trust without holding a mirror to their statements. Dr. Bhattacharya, for example, participated in a round table discussion with Governor Ron DeSantis at the very end of July. On August 1st, 2021, Ron DeSantis tweeted out a quote by Dr. Bhattacharya that said, we have protected the vulnerable by vaccinating the older population. We have provided them with enormous protection against severe disease and death. That's why you see, even as the cases have risen in Sweden, blah, blah, blah, we've protected the vulnerable. The number of deaths have not risen proportionally and this was right when the Delta wave was taking off within. This is the one thing that was interesting, this pandemic, because you had people make prediction and within days their predictions were falsified. That was a tragic thing to see, but that's 20,000 Floridians or some number like that died during the Delta wave in Florida. More Floridians died after Dr. Bhattacharya said the vulnerable have been protected than before that. So I think there was a lot of over-hyping in the vaccines, and I get where this came from. We as doctors, we wanted everyone to get the vaccines. We wanted to encourage everyone to get the vaccine. I probably did this myself at some times, but I do think that that was a problem, but the same doctors who are now saying that the vaccines were overhyped and were often guilty of them.Eric Topol (15:35):Right. Well, I mean, I think as you said, we didn't know the virus is going to evolve with this Omicron event with well over 35 new mutations in the spike protein, no less other parts of the virus and then of course, recently we saw another superimposed Omicron event with this BA.2.86 or JN.1 variant. The problem with this of the vaccine takedown, and as you well know because you've been studying this for more than Covid, is that it extended to many other parts of the pandemic, such as masks, such as there's no such thing as Long Covid or it's exceptionally rare and it bleeds through other areas. So could you comment about that? That is the anti-science. It's not just anti-vax.Jonathan Howard (16:30):No, you're absolutely right. I don't talk a lot about Long Covid just because I think a lot of other people do a much better job of that. I have a hard time grasping the numbers myself. You'll read one study, it's one in a thousand, you'll read another study. Oh, 50% of people have Long Covid. My attitude towards Long Covid is I don't know exactly how many people have it, but some people are severely affected by it. We have a lot to learn about it, this is a brand new virus. We are going to be learning about this the rest of our lives, especially the consequences of repeat infections. A baby born today is going to be infected, what? 10 times by the time they go away to college. Who knows what are going to be the consequences of that? What does this mean for autoimmunity?(17:15):So my attitude with Long Covid and the long-term consequences are we just have to be very humble about this and again, all of the doctors who I discussed were very arrogant about this. They were writing in as early as March 2020 that school closures may prevent children from developing herd immunity. They spoke about infections as being beneficial for children, but you're right as well that these doctors cast doubt on all in any measures that were used to stop the virus masks, testing, ventilation, lockdowns. One of their core objections wasn't that they didn't feel that these were ineffective necessarily. They objected to lockdowns precisely because they stopped the spread of the virus, so you can read some articles from Scott Atlas in April 2020. He wrote several articles in the Hill, that publication saying it's time to stop the panic, et cetera. If people were as if panic was a bad reaction to Covid, as morgues were overflowing with dead bodies, panic was the right action. He said that the lockdowns have stopped Covid from spreading and stopped natural immunity from developing, which prevents us from reaching herd immunity. So again, these guys and the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration objected to lockdown saying they just postponed the inevitable, which there may be some truth to that. Probably everyone here has been infected by Covid at least one time, but postponing the inevitable, that's what I go to work every day trying to do.Eric Topol (19:04):And you could say a lot for putting off an infection, of course, as long as possible. And of course, even trying to put it off forever, because as you know very well, as we went on in the pandemic, we learned a lot then there was treatments such as paxlovid and far better treatments that were available for severe Covid, many randomized trials to help prevent deaths for people who were of high risk. The other thing that I guess I can't emphasize enough, and you had a whole chapter in the book, which is about children, kids, they're not so intrinsically protected. They can die, they can be hospitalized and there have been many deaths among them from Covid, even those who don't have coexisting conditions. So maybe you could talk a little bit about that, the flaw in that it's only people of advanced age or immunocompromised and that young people are bulletproof. That doesn't seem to be the case in reviewing all the data throughout the pandemic.Jonathan Howard (20:12):I mean, just to reemphasize the point that you made, that someone who gets Covid today, especially if they're vaccinated and boosted is in much better shape than someone who gets Covid, who got Covid in March or April 2020. The same way I hope someone who gets Covid in the year 2030 is going to be in better shape than we are today. But yes, back to pediatric Covid, the risk to any individual child is very small. So my kids have it, my nieces and nephews had it. I wasn't particularly worried and they fortunately had very mild disease, but there's 73 million children in the United States, and when you multiply a rare event by 73 million children, the numbers began to add up. So far around 2,000 children have died of Covid, which is comparable to what measles used to do before. In the pre pandemic days, hundreds of thousands of children have been hospitalized, and depending on the variant, about a third have needed ICU care.(21:15):And five to 10% have been intubated. Some children have had strokes, some children have had amputations. So it's not as bad, it's not as bad as car deaths. It's not as bad as bullets, but we don't have vaccines for those conditions and the vaccine is not a panacea for children. Some vaccinated children have died, but it's like wearing a seatbelt. You can die in a car crash wearing a seatbelt, but your odds are greatly enhanced if you are wearing a seatbelt, but all of these doctors who in 2020 state to their name, to the idea that we could get rid of Covid by spreading Covid be the purposeful infection of children, were unwilling to recognize that the vaccine can help them. They use many different techniques to minimize the benefits of the vaccine. One was to say that it never demonstrated efficacy against hospitalizations and deaths in randomized controlled trials, which is true in as far as it goes because it is very hard to detect rare events in randomized controlled trials unless you do a study of 200 to 300,000 children as was done with the polio vaccine.(22:36):And they suggested that this should have been done, that we should have re-enrolled hundreds of thousands of children in these trials, which would've taken, I don't know, five, ten years. So that's number one. We now have about 30 observational studies, and they all show the same. And by the way, there were six randomized controlled trials of the vaccine in children involving about 25,000 children. So they're not small trial. As I said, there are about 30 trials from around the world showing that the vaccine observational trials, so observational studies, I should say, showing that the vaccine is not perfect, but it's very good at preventing rare but serious side effects or serious harms of Covid. As you know, there was just a large study out of Penn a couple days ago showing that the vaccine during the Delta in the Omicron wave was extremely effective at preventing children from entering the ICU.(23:36):They also treated rare mild vaccine side effects as a fate worse than death and I mean that very literally, the vaccine in young men can cause myocarditis, which is mild in about 90-95% of people with it. I'm unaware of a single American who has been known to have died from vaccine myocarditis. These doctors made dozens of YouTube videos and editorials and commentaries all saying what a catastrophe vaccine myocarditis was. How dare you minimize vaccine myocarditis. When they also wrote editorials saying, young people should not fear death from Covid, and they spoke about death from Covid as milder than vaccine myocarditis when talking about deaths from Covid, they would say, oh, it's less than suicide. More children drown every year. They would just all sorts of crazy double standards.Eric Topol (24:38):Right. One of the things that's extraordinary in the book, Jonathan, is that you have, it isn't like you're just writing text about it. You have all the quotes, you have all the tweets, you have all the articles. I don't know how you did that. I mean, were you keeping an active list of everything that was, I mean, I liken it to remember during in the Trump administration, there was a guy in CNN, I'm trying to remember his name.Jonathan Howard (25:09):Dale something.Eric Topol (25:10):Dale, yeah. And he had a fact check every day, and he kept track of everything. That was his job full time, but it seemed like you were the only one that has this record of every statement written on the topics that we're discussing. How did you do it?Jonathan Howard (25:35):Well, I did it through the blog at Science-Based Medicine is that I'd been collecting these statements starting in May 2021, and it just grew out of that. And so basically, the book is sort of a reorganization, everything that I've been writing on that blog and I will say that the fact that I have so many direct quotes has made it impossible for these doctors to refute me, because if I'm wrong, then they're right. If they're right, then we'll have herd immunity in three to six months once the lockdowns are lifted, reinfections are very rare. Variants are nothing to worry about and so they have to make that case. What they've tried to do is they've tried to do some revisionist history. So, for example, Dr. Jerome Adams, who was Trump's surgeon general, and turned out to be very reasonable guy, recently posted on Twitter, I'll still call it that, that Scott Atlas wanted to, and he was right, wanted to infect people to achieve herd immunity.(26:49):And Dr. Jay Bhattacharya and Dr. Vinay Prasad, who's a misinformation oncologist at UCSF, we're a gas. They said, oh no, he didn't want to purposely infect children. We just wanted schools open. The harms of school closures were just so great. So they cast themselves as these very benevolent, we were just looking out for the children. We never wanted them infected. I never said that, I never thought that, but all you have to do is just read their own words. The ones who have responded to me have responded just by childish insults, really just calling me names. I'm a schmuck, I'm a grifter, I'm a B-list Covid influencer. None of them have ever tried to engage with any of the content and all that would require them to do is stand up for their own words, which they won't.Eric Topol (27:46):Alright. Now, we touched on it early in our conversation, but what was one of the surprising things on the one hand there are anti-vaxxers, like RFK Jr. and people, as you mentioned, the person that you knew at NYU who went on, but then there were these surprise people who were at top academic medical centers in the country that went into misinformation campaigns, whether it was deliberate because it was associated with all sorts of attention, or whether it was misinterpretation of data. I don't understand, but can you speculate what's going on there and whether or not the universities involved should have been somehow engaging with these individuals?Jonathan Howard (28:39):Yeah, so it's tough for me to understand their motives. I do think that what made them more dangerous than someone like Kelly Brogan or RFK Jr. By the way, these two worlds, which I kind of treated as separate, they're beginning to merge with people like Joseph Ladapo, for example. So they're not as separate as they once were and Dr. Vinay Prasad has praised RFK Jr. saying he would destroy Dr. Peter Hotez, a hero of vaccines in the debate. I mean, it's crazy, crazy stuff up, but I think the guys who I write about were more dangerous in that they mixed good advice with bad advice. So they would say very sensible things like, yes, you have to protect grandma. Grandma has to get vaccinated with bad advice, that the vaccine is more dangerous than Covid for children, for example. They also are very good, eloquent speakers who can speak in scientific jargon and use the language of evidence-based medicine, someone like Kelly Brogan, for example, would say that she uses intuition and higher ways of knowing, and crystals and tarot cards, these guys don't do that.(29:51):If we were to discuss our general approach to medicine, it would be no different than ours, than anyone's. They would say, we try to use science, evidence, data, logic, and reason to reach the best conclusions. So I think that that made them more dangerous. Again, what do I think their motivations were? I think a lot of it is some of these guys are natural born contrarians, which means that they just have to be a little bit different, that when everyone else is saying X, they got to say Y and that served them well in the beginning, in most of their careers and we need people like that In medicine, I would say that Nobel Prize winner, Katalin Kariko, I am probably butchering her name, but the Hungarian woman who developed the mRNA vaccines maybe fits that profile and so we need people like that in medicine.(30:39):I also think they had a hard time admitting air when they drastically underestimated Covid at the start of the pandemic, and all of them did predicting 10,000 people would die predicting that it would be less severe than the flu. They had a hard time saying, oops, I was wrong. Some doctors did that. Famously, Dr. Paul Offit, another vaccine hero, said at the beginning of March, I believe, or early February 2020, that he thought the flu was going to be more dangerous than Covid and when he turned out to be wrong, he said, oops, I was wrong. You might as well make an ass of yourself in front of a million people. But I think these guys couldn't admit air and once they had committed themselves to a policy, the purposeful mass infection of unvaccinated youth, it was hard to backtrack from that. What are you going to say?(31:26):Oops, I was wrong, and young people suffered and died because of what I said. No, I'm not going to say that. I'm going to say the vaccine is more dangerous than the virus so I think it was a lot of that. In terms of what universities should do, they're at a bind because if they speak out against these people, they're experts at weaponizing their delusions of self-persecution. I've been silenced, I've been censored. We need, even though, like I said, they became mini celebrities and met with Trump and DeSantis and advised Governor Glenn Youngkin and they were all over the news. They're huge social media presences. They were everywhere, but where I was in a hospital with Covid patient. So I think that if universities speak out, they run the risk of the Streisand effect. It's called amplifying people inadvertently and allowing them to claim their precious victim status, but if they don't speak out, which they really haven't done, they run the risk of what they're saying is this person carries the aperture. Am I pronouncing that word of our university, that we feel that this person is competent to speak on our behalf which is a problem.Eric Topol (32:38):No, I think we've just seen that, of course, with the three institutions that the presidents were brought in about a whole different matter, and how they didn't necessarily speak out as they could have a totally different matter, of course. This is a real tough one as you've outlined as to whether leaders of university, for example, at Stanford, the faculty did stand up and say, we're not supporting Scott Atlas or this or that. This didn't really happen at other universities that we've touched on at least. So the individuals now going forward here, there's a much bigger story than just Covid, and it's the anti-science, anti-vax movement, which is very dangerous. I think most people who are reasonable reviewing the data would say vaccines are just extraordinary for preserving health, but we're seeing now this movement has gotten legs, it's gotten funding, it's organized, and you're well familiar with Peter Hotez's book who gets through some of that substantiates where this has been with autism and where it's going.(33:59):So one of the problems is that there hasn't been much in the way of any antidote, any aggressive response to basically you have the corrections, the real time, the hall of shame, if you will, of this misinformation to have fact checkers, to get the story straight and perhaps not governmental sponsored because that's also an area of uncertainty of trust in public health, but some type of agency that could take on a corrective effort for the public to know what's fact and what's not. What are your thoughts of how we can get out of this mess?Jonathan Howard (34:46):Oh, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. I think skepticism about the Covid vaccines, we're already seeing this as going to bleed into other vaccines. States are doing everything they can to get rid of what were once considered normal vaccine mandates. So I don't know how we're going to get out of it and I think any government agency designed to combat misinformation would become itself as, first of all, you got to be a little bit careful. We don't know who's going to be running that in 2025, right? I mean, Joseph Ladapo might be in charge of the government industry of misinformation depending on who wins election next. So we got to be careful with handing government that sort of, but I do think that more doctors need to do what I have done, what Dr. Peter Hotez has done, what you've done, what my mentor(35:37):Dr. David Gorski, who runs Science-Based Medicine and Steve Novella have done, which is to just speak out and to call out doctors. When we say, when we hear this misinformation, I think a lot of doctors are what we call shruggy, meaning they sort of shrug it off like, that person's kind of wacky. What are you going to do about it? But I think that we need to not tolerate it. We don't have to give them the victim status by saying, oh, you should be fired, you should be censored, this sort of thing, but just when these doctors make absurd statements by saying that the flu is more dangerous for children than Covid, we need to say no. Over the past three years, Covid has killed 2,000 children. The flu has killed about 300. 2,000 is bigger than 300. If I told you in 2019 virus A kills 2,000 people, virus B kills 300, you would not have a hard time answering that question and if you are trying to tell me now that the virus that killed 200 children is worse than the one that killed 2,000, that's absurd and we just shouldn't tolerate that sort of nonsense. I think that's the attitude that we need to have.Eric Topol (36:51):Yeah, I mean, I think it's very scary where we're headed, and it's ironic because we're seeing vaccine progression to pathogens never seen before, whether it's malaria, obviously, we have RSV vaccines and so many more that are coming. In addition, these same vaccines on the platform, whether it be mRNA and nanoparticles or proteins or whatnot, are being directed now to help amp up the immune response to cancer or to create vaccines that could help achieve tolerance to the immune system, an area that you work in multiple sclerosis and many other neurologic type one diabetes and on and on autoimmune conditions. So if we don't get this right, that if vaccines are trashed, we got some problems going forward.Jonathan Howard (37:46):We shouldn't call those vaccine. That's my suggestion number one. I'm half joking about that. We shouldn't. Sorry to cut you off, but yeah, we do have problems going forward, and like I said, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better and look at the Covid booster vaccination rates. I don't know what they are off the top of my head, but they're in the garbage.Eric Topol (38:08):19% in all Americans and we're one of the few countries that has it widely available for all adults, and only 35% in people 70 years and older, where there's a spike in hospitalizations right now that's comparable to the other waves of BA.2 and BA.5, and it's still rising. So yeah, the booster uptake has been very poor, especially in people at high risk. Absolutely right.Jonathan Howard (38:37):I think people have been influenced by the anti-vaccine movement, even when they don't recognize it. I think it's kind of permeated the culture because people have a very different attitude towards vaccines than they have to almost anything else in their life. I wouldn't say, for example, I don't need to go to the dentist again, because I went in 2020 and 2021 and 2022, I wouldn't say I don't need to go to the gym anymore because I went 10 times last year, for example. We recognize that there are certain things that we have to do for our health that have to be done on a frequent basis, and it's too bad that vaccination doesn't fit that bill. Again, I think one reason for this is that the vaccines were overhyped at the start of the pandemic, or at least in 2021, they were pitched as this panacea. This we're definitely going to solve things, and in retrospect, that was a mistake. We needed to proceed with a little bit more humility just about a brain. This is everyone's first pandemic, right?Eric Topol (39:35):Yeah. I mean, I think the unpredictability of the virus's evolution, which was very slow at first, and then of course it accelerated, was unforeseen and changed the entire profile of the protection forwarded by vaccines. I guess to wrap it up, Jonathan, I want to thank you for all the hard work you did to put this book together and your efforts to try to stand up for the evidence, the science that supports vaccines and the things that we can do to help preserve human health in a pandemic and beyond. I mean, in your practice of medicine that goes well, different and beyond a pathogen in caring for patients with neurologic conditions. I also, I guess would say I'm more hopeful that we will have oral nasal vaccines that do block infections, maybe just for a few months per spray or per inhalation and more durable vaccines that don't only last four to six months if we put our efforts and resources and priorities into it.(40:44):But I'm also worried that, as you say, the V word is a bad word now to many people. So I don't know that we've come up with any solution here outside of your idea of not calling vaccines, but it seems to me we have to be much more direct at dealing with the miss and disinformation movements that have grown so profoundly in the last few years and taking advantage of course of the pandemic fatigue and all the holes in our current tools that obviously there are no things that are fully protected, whether it's a vaccine or N95 mask or you name it. Any last comments about where are you headed? Are you still going to track this or are you had enough of it, or what's your next chapter in your work?Jonathan Howard (41:42):I'm going to still continue to write at Science-Based Medicine on this theme because I think that it's important as doctors that we regulate our own profession and that we hold our public communications to high standards, and I include myself in that. So in my book, I include several really stupid things that I said, and that might be the subject of a future article of dumb things I said, because I did say some dumb things. So I think we have to hold ourselves to a high standard when communicating with the public in a pandemic. So that's what I'm going to continue to do. I'm going to continue to do what I always do at Bellevue psych and NYU treat MS patients around on the inpatient service at Bellevue Hospital wouldn't trade it for the world.Eric Topol (42:29):Well, I want to thank you, and Bellevue is a tough place to work. I know it well, and that in itself says a lot about you. You're a person who I had not met before, only having read your work, but I don't detect one scintilla of hubris. You come across as a genuine person who is really interested in facts and evidence. I want to thank you for all of your work and look forward to future conversation.Jonathan Howard (42:58):Well, thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it. It means a lot, and I appreciate all you've done on your Twitter feed. Whenever there's a new story. I get it from you first, and so I appreciate it.Eric Topol (43:08):Thanks so much, Jonathan.Commentary on this book's significance by Gregg Gonsalves, Associate Professor, Yale School of Public HealthOne of the untold stories of the COVID pandemic in the US is the role of medical and public health professionals in spreading disinformation, pushing for policies that exacerbate the virus' spread, and drive people away from important interventions, particularly vaccines, which blunt the deadly effects of SARSCOV2. Because of professional courtesy, solidarity or just sheer cowardice, many inside the professions have refused to take on these frauds, egomaniacs, purveyors of sickness and suffering in white coats. Jonathan Howard's book We Want Them Infected, though, names names. In painstaking detail, he builds an indictment of these men and women who have blood on their hands, abusing the trust of millions to peddle lies and falsehoods. This book is one for the ages, making it hard to sweep the complicity of these individuals with the virus under the carpet, leaving a record for the future, a cautionary tale for all of us. Get full access to Ground Truths at erictopol.substack.com/subscribe

The GBD, penned in October 2020, proposed an alternative strategy to the prevailing COVID-19 restrictions. It suggested that low-risk populations should be allowed to acquire natural immunity through infection, while high-risk groups, particularly the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions, receive focused protection. This approach, the authors argued, would lead to herd immunity, reducing overall societal and economic disruptions. Questionable Origins and Ideological Underpinnings The hosts addressed the origins of the GBD, noting its association with the American Institute for Economic Research, a libertarian think tank. This connection raised questions about the ideological motives behind the declaration, potentially conflating public health policy with economic and political agendas. Jeffrey Tucker: A Controversial Figure Central to the episode's critique was the examination of Jeffrey Tucker, a significant proponent of the GBD. Tucker's controversial views on child labor and pro-tobacco stances, as highlighted in the podcast, painted a picture of an individual whose ideologies might conflict with mainstream public health principles. The Impact on Public Health Policy The GBD's influence on public health policy has been substantial, igniting debates on pandemic management strategies. Its advocacy for herd immunity through natural infection contrasted sharply with the broader public health consensus advocating for vaccination and preventive measures. Closing: Learning from the Pandemic The analysis presented here underscores the complexities of pandemic management and the importance of scrutinizing the origins, motivations, and implications of public health policies. The Great Barrington Declaration, with its controversial stance and ideological underpinnings, serves as a case study in the critical evaluation of health policy during unprecedented times.   Resources mentioned: Great Barrington Declaration. Interviews and quotes from Dr. Scott Atlas and Dr. Jerome Adams. Statements from Dr. Vinay Prasad and Dr. Jay Bhattacharya. Information about the American Institute for Economic Research. Articles and viewpoints of Jeffrey Tucker. COVID-19 pandemic response policies and their impacts. Various epidemiological studies and data cited in the podcast. Historical context of public health measures during the pandemic. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent take a deep dive into the controversial Great Barrington Declaration, a document that has stirred significant debate in the public health community. This declaration, penned by Dr. Sunita Gupta of Oxford, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford, and Dr. Martin Kulldorff of Harvard, proposes a pandemic response strategy centered on achieving herd immunity through natural infection, particularly among younger, healthier populations. The Underestimation of COVID-19 At the heart of the episode is a critical examination of how the declaration's authors may have underestimated the severity of COVID-19. The hosts reflect on early pandemic opinions, including those from John Ioannidis and Dr. Scott Atlas, that influenced the declaration. They discuss the implications of pursuing herd immunity without a vaccine and the potential risks to public health, especially considering the virus's impact on different age groups. Ethical Concerns and Scientific Debate A significant part of the discussion focuses on the ethical dilemmas posed by the declaration. The idea of intentionally allowing a segment of the population to be infected raises serious moral questions. The hosts challenge the notion that young people have an obligation to contract the virus, likening it to a "war" against COVID-19. The Role of Dr. Scott Atlas Dr. Scott Atlas, a prominent figure in the Trump administration's COVID-19 response, is also discussed. His support for natural infection as a pathway to herd immunity is critically examined, with the hosts highlighting his statements from various interviews and articles. The Impact of Herd Immunity Without Vaccination The episode does not shy away from discussing the historical context of herd immunity and its effectiveness in managing pandemics. The hosts argue that without vaccination, achieving lasting herd immunity may be an unattainable goal, citing examples from the history of diseases like measles and smallpox. Final Words In conclusion, the episode provides a comprehensive critique of the Great Barrington Declaration, emphasizing the need for a nuanced, ethical, and scientifically sound approach to pandemic management. The discussion underscores the complexities of public health decision-making in times of crisis and the importance of basing strategies on robust scientific evidence and ethical considerations.   Resources mentioned The Great Barrington Declaration Interviews and articles by Dr. Sunita Gupta, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, and Dr. Martin Kulldorff John Ioannidis's Stat News article from March 17, 2020 Dr. Bhattacharya's Wall Street Journal article, "Is the Coronavirus as Deadly as They Say?" Dr. Martin Kulldorff's article, "COVID-19 countermeasures should be age specific" Dr. Scott Atlas's article, "Reentry After the Panic" Tucker Carlson's Fox News interview with Dr. Scott Atlas Twitter account @hypoautomatic Various scientific studies and data on COVID-19 mortality and transmission rates   Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard, in the absence of co-host Wendy Orent, explores the misconceptions and risky propositions around achieving herd immunity through natural COVID-19 infection. He references an article by Drs. de Souza and Dowdy from Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, highlighting the true meaning of herd immunity and its relation to vaccination. Howard critiques various early claims and redefinitions of herd immunity during the pandemic, stressing the dangers of using children as 'human shields' in the quest for herd immunity. The episode underscores the importance of vaccination in preventing serious diseases like measles, mumps, polio, and chickenpox, and debunks myths about natural immunity being beneficial for children.   List of Resources Mentioned Article: "What is Herd Immunity and How Can We Achieve It with COVID-19" by Dr. de Souza and Dr. Dowdy, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health (April 16, 2021) Article by John Ioannidis in Stat News (March 17, 2020) CNBC Article: "Sweden resisted a lockdown. And its capital Stockholm is expected to reach herd immunity in weeks." (April 22, 2020) Article by Dr. Vinay Prasad and Alison Crew (February 2022) Article: "COVID-19 And children and university students" by Dr. John Ioannidis Editorial in the BMJ discussing childhood vaccination and herd immunity The Great Barrington Declaration   Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and expert Wendy Orent explore the contentious topic of a novel virus's origins. They examine the evolution of infectious diseases and the likelihood of laboratory involvement in the virus's emergence. The discussion revolves around the complexity of virus transmissibility, the historical context of virus outbreaks, and the challenges in pinpointing the exact origins. The conversation also addresses common conspiracy theories and the importance of scientific evidence over speculation.   Resources mentioned: SARS, Plague, Smallpox, and Ebola: Previous viruses that Wendy Orange has researched and written about. Biological Weapons: A focus area of Wendy's work. Vincent Roccaniello: A virologist mentioned in the discussion about virus transmissibility. Aron Fouchier and Nishihiro Okawa: Scientists referenced in relation to research on virus adaptation and transmissibility. Michael Warabi: A scientist whose work on virus origin tracing is discussed. Alison Young: Investigative reporter mentioned in relation to lab leak theories. Dr. Fauci: Referenced in the context of email communications regarding virus origins. Emily Kump: A writer with a viewpoint supporting the lab leak theory. Igor Domoradze: A scientist with whom Wendy worked closely, mentioned in the context of virus engineering. Dr. Parr: A scientist who co-authored a study on virus lineages.   Looking for something specific? Here you go! 00:04:41 Origin of virus still uncertain. 00:09:56 No takeaway. 00:13:04 Origin of virus still uncertain. 00:16:23 Lab leak theory debunked. 00:24:11 Lab leak theory lacks evidence. 00:24:50 Lab-origin of virus unlikely. 00:33:14 Origin of virus likely from market. 00:34:33 Lab leak theory debunked. 00:39:45 Lab leak theory lacks evidence. 00:44:10 Bats have unique immune systems. 00:51:16 No conclusive evidence for origin. Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss various aspects of the COVID-19 pandemic, including the initial underestimation of the death toll by Dr. John Ioannidis. They address misconceptions such as the belief that people were dying with COVID, not of COVID, and the skepticism surrounding COVID-19 death certificates. Dr. Howard counters these claims by highlighting the challenges faced in the early stages of the pandemic, including limited testing availability. The discussion also touches on the impact of lockdowns and the belief that they caused more harm than good.    Furthermore, they challenge the notion that only elderly individuals were affected by COVID-19, emphasizing that the virus had a broader impact, even on younger individuals. The podcast explores the evolving nature of the virus and the long-term consequences that remain uncertain.   Looking for something specific? Here you go! 00:00:49 COVID death toll not inflated. 00:06:10 Lockdowns did not cause excess deaths. 00:12:29 Lockdowns caused harm but not mass death. 00:23:13 COVID-19 has long-lasting consequences. 00:24:42 COVID consequences still largely unknown. 00:31:11 Ventilators not causing high mortality. 00:40:08 COVID deaths may have been undercounted. 00:41:52 Underreporting of COVID-19 deaths 00:48:08 Misinformation can have real consequences.     Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com      The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In this episode, the hosts critically examine COVID-19 misinformation, focusing on the widespread myths that persisted during the pandemic. They discuss the controversial stance of Dr. John Ioannidis and others who underestimated COVID's impact and compared its dangers to everyday activities like driving. The episode highlights the serious consequences of these misconceptions, including the false notion that COVID only severely affected the elderly with pre-existing conditions, and addresses the damaging claim that doctors contributed to fatalities through premature intubations.    A list of resources mentioned: Stat News Article by Dr. John Ioannidis (March 17, 2020): An article by Dr. Ioannidis which discussed COVID-19, its impact, and the reliability of data surrounding the pandemic. Interview of Dr. Ioannidis with Fox News' Mark Levin (April 2020): A notable interview where Dr. Ioannidis expressed his views on COVID-19 and its relative danger compared to everyday activities. Autopsy Series from 2016-2017 on Elderly People Who Died of Flu: Research cited by Dr. Ioannidis in his argument regarding the cause of death during the pandemic. Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) Publication: A publication referenced for discussing COVID-19 deaths in Italy and the challenge of attributing deaths to SARS-CoV-2. CDC Guidelines and Investigations into COVID-19 Deaths: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's approach to recording and verifying COVID-19 deaths, including the analysis of death certificates. Perspectives on the Pandemic 4 (Interview dated April 17, 2020): An interview featuring Dr. Ioannidis, where he discusses the pandemic, particularly focusing on the risk to younger people and the role of underlying health conditions.  Study on COVID-19 Risk Comparison to Driving: A study or analysis conducted by Dr. Ioannidis comparing the risk of dying from COVID-19 to the risk of dying from driving. Data and Reports from Italy and the United States: Various statistical data and reports from Italy and the U.S. were mentioned to highlight the differences in COVID-19 death rates and the presence of comorbidities. Reports on New York City's COVID-19 Death Toll and Management: Specific references were made to the situation in New York City, including the handling of COVID-19 deaths and the challenges faced by the healthcare system Accounts from Frontline Healthcare Workers: Personal experiences and observations from doctors and nurses dealing with COVID-19 patients were discussed, providing firsthand insights into the pandemic's impact.      Looking for something specific? Here you go! 00:00:00 COVID myths and misinformation persist. 00:06:45 Questioning the impact of COVID-19. 00:14:04 Risk of virus is manageable. 00:19:39 COVID-19 deaths can be inaccurately recorded. 00:25:20 Two conflicting views on COVID. 00:31:52 Death certificates accurately reflect COVID-19. 00:37:57 COVID death toll undercounted   Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com     The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.  The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

In this discussion, Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent discuss the early responses to the COVID-19 pandemic and the role of Dr. John E. Loannidis, a renowned scientist. They examine his initial underestimation of the virus's impact, the flaws in his predictions, and his shifting perspectives over time. Resources Mentioned: Dr. John E. Ioannidis' early writings on COVID-19 Stat News article "A Fiasco in the Making: As the Coronavirus Pandemic Takes Hold, We Are Making Decisions Without Reliable Data" (March 17, 2020) European Journal of Clinical Investigation article "Coronavirus Disease 2019: The Harms of Exaggerated Information and Non-Evidence-Based Measures" (March 19, 2020) Stephanie Seneff's critique of the Santa Clara antibody study Statistician Andrew Gelman's analysis of the study Looking for something specific? Here you go! 0:00 - Introduction to the podcast episode discussing early pandemic responses and hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent. 3:10 - Discussion about Dr. John E. Loannidis and his role in questioning COVID-19 data and his contributions to evidence-based medicine. 3:52 - Dr. Loannidis' reputation as an expert in scientific methodology and evidence-based research, along with his early recognition of Elizabeth Holmes as a fraud. 12:24 - Reference to early pandemic concerns in Italy and New York and Dr. Loannidis' initial prediction of COVID-19's impact. 12:45 - Confirmation of the severity of the situation in Italy and New York during the early pandemic and Dr. Ioannidis' early prediction of 40,000 deaths in the USA. 16:05 - Analysis of Dr. Loannidis' prediction of 40,000 deaths and its accuracy, along with discussion of the Santa Clara antibody study and its criticism. 16:07 - Details about the Santa Clara antibody study, its implications, and criticism of its methodology and accuracy. 17:50 - Introduction to a discussion on a Fox News interview with Dr. Loannidis, his background, and credentials, as well as his early skepticism about COVID-19 data and revised assessment of fatality rates.   Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com    The Fine Print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Dr. Jonathan Howard, a neurologist and psychiatrist, and Co-Host, Wendy Orent, discuss the emergence of the anti-vaccine movement, particularly focusing on doctors who have contributed to spreading vaccine skepticism. They examine the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic, the influence of certain doctors, and the alarming mainstreaming of anti-vaccine rhetoric.     About the authors: Dr. Jonathan Howard is a distinguished neurologist and psychiatrist based in New York City, practicing at NYU and Bellevue Hospital. His extensive background in neurology and psychiatry has made him a well-respected figure in the medical field. Dr. Howard has witnessed the profound impact of infectious diseases firsthand, especially during the challenging times of the COVID-19 pandemic. He brings his expertise and experience to the forefront in his work, podcast, and writing, shedding light on crucial issues related to infectious diseases and public health. Dr. Howard's dedication to accurate and evidence-based information has made him a trusted voice in the medical community, providing valuable insights into the challenges posed by pandemics and the importance of vaccination.     Wendy Orent is an American anthropologist and science writer with a focus on pandemics, biological weapons, and the evolution of infectious diseases. She is a freelance science writer whose work has appeared in "The Washington Post", "Aeon", "Undark Magazine", "The Sciences", "The Los Angeles Times", "The New Republic", "Discover", and "The American Prospect".   Looking for something specific? Here you go! 02:15 - Early Misinformation and COVID Minimization 07:30 - Rise of Conspiracy Theories 12:45 - The Formal Movement to Infect Young People 17:20 - The Influence of Pandemic Skeptics 23:10 - Impact on Vaccination Efforts 28:55 - The Fight Against Misinformation Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The fine print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.    The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information.   The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content.   The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content.   Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer.   Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

We Want Them Infected is a conversation that will leave you questioning everything you thought you knew about medical experts and vaccine skepticism. Our podcast reveals the hidden side of the COVID-19 pandemic, where influential doctors played a troubling role in spreading misinformation and fear. We talk about why We Want Them Infected isn't just a book; it's a call to action.  Subscribe to the show and learn how the anti-vaccine movement went mainstream, affecting public health and trust in science. Are you ready?   About the authors: Dr. Jonathan Howard is a distinguished neurologist and psychiatrist based in New York City, practicing at NYU and Bellevue Hospital. His extensive background in neurology and psychiatry has made him a well-respected figure in the medical field. Dr. Howard has witnessed the profound impact of infectious diseases firsthand, especially during the challenging times of the COVID-19 pandemic. He brings his expertise and experience to the forefront in his work, podcast, and writing, shedding light on crucial issues related to infectious diseases and public health. Dr. Howard's dedication to accurate and evidence-based information has made him a trusted voice in the medical community, providing valuable insights into the challenges posed by pandemics and the importance of vaccination. Wendy Orent is an American anthropologist and science writer with a focus on pandemics, biological weapons, and the evolution of infectious diseases. She is a freelance science writer whose work has appeared in "The Washington Post", "Aeon", "Undark Magazine", "The Sciences", "The Los Angeles Times", "The New Republic", "Discover", and "The American Prospect".   Connect with us further on jonathanhowardmd.com  The fine print: The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only.  The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.  

Guest Dr. Jonathan Howard, author "We Want Them Infected", joins to discuss the "mis information" spread during the COVID pandemic. Did it make it difficult to save lives? Discussion of the mask discussion, vaccines, alternative medicines and more.  John Fetterman joins late night TV...epic.  What is the new American dream? Is it working hard to succeed, or letting someone fight for you through collective bargaining?

This episode is sponsored by KyurMD.com – technically advanced medical apparel.  In the second part of the "We Want Them Infected" series, Dr. Jonathan Howard delves into the allure of the anti-vaccine movement among doctors. He explores the psychological factors, including the pursuit of fame and financial gain, that drive some doctors to embrace contrarian views. Audience capture, a phenomenon where public personalities echo the sentiments of their followers, is discussed as a key factor that reinforces extreme stances and perpetuates misinformation. The episode draws parallels to how public figures like Donald Trump can also fall prey to audience capture. Looking for something specific? Here you go! 00:01 - Introduction to Part Two of "We Want Them Infected" 00:26 - Discussion on the allure of contrarianism and audience capture 01:56 - Comparing audience capture to Donald Trump's changing stances 03:01 - Strategies to prevent falling into the trap of audience capture 03:43 - The importance of humility and openness to correction 06:16 - Engaging respectfully in disagreements on social media 08:12 - The "IKEA effect" and recognizing biases in our ideas 10:07 - Examining arguments used by anti-vaxxers against COVID vaccines 14:15 - Critiquing the demand for more randomized controlled trials 16:01 - The shifting goalposts of critics 18:14 - Reactions of doctors mentioned in the book 20:53 - The consequences of misinformation and what gives hope 24:43 - Encouragement for doctors to speak out against medical misinformation More on Dr. Howard: A distinguished author, Dr. Howard has penned several authoritative textbooks on neurology. Notably, he is the writer behind Cognitive Errors and Diagnostic Mistakes: A Case-Based Guide to Critical Thinking in Medicine. Well before the pandemic emerged, Dr. Howard had a deep-rooted interest in vaccines and the counter-vaccine movement. Preceding the global health crisis, he was a co-author for a book chapter titled The Anti-Vaccine Movement: A Litany of Fallacy and Errors. Throughout the pandemic, he has been actively contributing to the discourse on the mainstream acceptance of anti-vaccine sentiments within the medical field.  His writings on this matter can be found on Science Based Medicine. Moreover, he has collaborated on research papers focused on the neurological implications of COVID-19 patients and the vaccination process for individuals with multiple sclerosis. Find Dr. Howard on his LinkedIn.  Did ya know…  You can also be a guest on our show? Please email me at brad@physiciansguidetodoctoring.com to connect or visit www.physiciansguidetodoctoring.com to learn more about the show! Socials: @physiciansguidetodoctoring on FB  @physicianguidetodoctoring on YouTube @physiciansguide on Instagram and Twitter

The COVID pandemic saw many fringe medical ideas brought to bear on public policy, surprisingly by highly influential medical professionals. What lessons can be learned from these past mistakes? On this episode, Dr. Jonathan Howard discussed his book, We Want Them Infected.

This episode is sponsored by Charm Economics.  Dr. Jonathan Howard once again joins the podcast to talk about his new book, "We Want Them Infected." The book examines a movement led by doctors during the COVID-19 pandemic who advocated for intentionally infecting unvaccinated individuals to develop herd immunity. Dr. Howard discusses how this idea influenced the national pandemic response and the real-world consequences that ensued. He also acknowledges the harms caused by lockdowns but emphasizes the flawed assumptions and lack of consideration for collateral damage in the proposed strategy. Looking for something specific? Here you go! 00:01:06 Book explores dangerous COVID strategy.  00:05:32 Misinformation about COVID and vaccines.  00:12:10 Contrarians mix good and bad advice.  00:17:24 Contrarians react defensively to criticism.  00:26:52 Lockdowns had negative consequences. Bio/links! A distinguished author, Dr. Howard has penned several authoritative textbooks on neurology. Notably, he is the writer behind Cognitive Errors and Diagnostic Mistakes: A Case-Based Guide to Critical Thinking in Medicine. Well before the pandemic emerged, Dr. Howard had a deep-rooted interest in vaccines and the counter-vaccine movement. Preceding the global health crisis, he was a co-author for a book chapter titled The Anti-Vaccine Movement: A Litany of Fallacy and Errors. Throughout the pandemic, he has been actively contributing to the discourse on the mainstream acceptance of anti-vaccine sentiments within the medical field.  His writings on this matter can be found on Science Based Medicine. Moreover, he has collaborated on research papers focused on the neurological implications of COVID-19 patients and the vaccination process for individuals with multiple sclerosis. Find Dr. Howard on his LinkedIn.  Did ya know…  You can also be a guest on our show? Please email me at brad@physiciansguidetodoctoring.com to connect or visit www.physiciansguidetodoctoring.com to learn more about the show! Socials: @physiciansguidetodoctoring on FB  @physicianguidetodoctoring on YouTube @physiciansguide on Instagram and Twitter

This is a segment of episode 349 of Last Born In The Wilderness, “We Want Them Infected: Contrarian Doctors & The Failed Quest For Herd Immunity w/ Jonathan Howard.” Listen to the full episode: https://www.lastborninthewilderness.com/episodes/jonathan-howard Learn more about and purchase We Want Them Infected: https://bit.ly/44JkRwy / https://a.co/d/6KrEc9A Jonathan Howard MD joins me to discuss his timely book, We Want Them Infected: How the Failed Quest for Herd Immunity Led Doctors to Embrace the Anti-Vaccine Movement and Blinded Americans to the Threat of COVID, published by Redhawk Publications. As much as Jonathan Howard's book is a scathing examination of how various very influential and contrarian doctors misled the US public about the coronavirus pandemic, it is also a historical document. By meticulously, carefully, and thoroughly quoting countless social media posts, statements, essays, op-eds, and interviews from certain highly accredited doctors, Dr. Howard compares their claims to actual reality as the virus began to rip through the population. Over and over again, these outspoken figures made bold and inaccurate claims that the pandemic was just about to end; herd immunity was just around the corner; the worst of the plague had already past; children were unaffected; and so on. Over and over again, these contrarian figures were proven wrong. And yet, despite overwhelming evidence, they still maintain their professional status and accreditation to this day, seemingly unhindered—professionally, at least—by the widespread consequences of their repeated false assumptions and claims. 

In this interview, Dr. Howard goes through the timeline of some of the claims made by these individuals, elucidating the origins of various bits of misinformation that persist up to the present. He describes what the Great Barrington Declaration is and its significance, and how the dubious public health recommendations relayed through it made its way into the highest echelons of US political and executive power. We discuss how this contrarian view of public health is informed by far-right libertarian philosophy, and how it is animated by a negative conception of liberty. And finally, we conclude by Dr. Howard sharing his views on the value, or lack thereof, of debate with individuals this book highlights and critiques, and how these media-trained, eloquent, and Gish galloping contrarian figures thrive in a media environment that allows their false claims to go largely unchallenged, and what that portends for our response to present and future public health emergencies. Dr. Jonathan Howard is an Associate Professor of Neurology and Psychiatry at NYU Langone Health and the Chief of Neurology at Bellevue Hospital. He is the author of Cognitive Errors and Diagnostic Mistakes: A Case-Based Guide to Critical Thinking in Medicine as well as several textbooks in neurology. He has been interested in vaccines long before the pandemic. WEBSITE: https://www.lastborninthewilderness.com PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/lastborninthewilderness DONATE: https://www.paypal.me/lastbornpodcast SUBSTACK: https://lastborninthewilderness.substack.com BOOK LIST: https://bookshop.org/shop/lastbornpodcast DROP ME A LINE: Call (208) 918-2837 or http://bit.ly/LBWfiledrop EVERYTHING ELSE: https://linktr.ee/patterns.of.behavior

The COVID19 pandemic was a challenge in public health, but became much worse through politicization of science and a thriving misinformation network. Over a short time, a cadre of personalities emerged in a willing media that made claims contrary to public health guidance, stoking suspicion and eroding trust in the messaging from public health experts. Dr. Jonathan Howard's book, "We Want Them Infected" is a collection of social and traditional media comments by contrarian physicians and media personalities that frame the dissent against public health guidance. Dr. Howard uses their own words to illustrate how a handful of personalities hijacked a health crisis to personally benefit, while providing false and dangerous information that clouded pandemic response, and eroded trust in vaccinations and other aspects of public health. Buy "We Want them Infected" at Redhawk PublicationsOr on Amazon   

At the pandemic's beginning, small bands of scientists and doctors devised a plan: what if we got young people sick on purpose? What could possibly go wrong? Dr. Jonathan Howard's new book, _We Want Them Infected_, traces this ill-begotten quest and the inevitable pseudoscience that followed. Listen in to our conversation with him! Links from the pod-- We Want Them Infected: https://redhawkpublications.com/We-Want-Them-Infected-p547021769 Lancet HPV study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02178-4/fulltext Steve Kirsch wants to give you $5M: https://twitter.com/stkirsch/status/1663293283211317248 This June, Voices for Vaccines wants to raise $10,000 so we can bring you our extra programming, such as this podcast! Donate now! https://www.voicesforvaccines.org/donate/

What "really" happened during the pandemic? Conspiracists have decided to take a victory lap. They were right, you see? The vaccines failed, and besides, they were super dangerous. COVID obviously came out of a lab. Masks were useless, and the lock-downs were completely unnecessary forms of totalitarian oppression. The authors of the Great Barrington Declaration, who were censored on social media, were right all along. Not so fast. Our guest today is Dr. Jonathan Howard, who not only did grueling service at Bellevue Hospital in NYC (as the first wave raged, and corpses were stacked in meat trucks) but has put in the time to create a comprehensive document of how contrarian doctors shaped cultural perceptions during the pandemic. He takes the title of his new book, We Want Them Infected, from a quote found in a series of emails from July 2020. Trump-appointed science-advisor to the HHS, Paul Alexander, urged officials there and at the FDA, and the CDC, to pursue a herd immunity strategy for COVID-19. "There is no other way," he wrote. "We need to establish herd, and it only comes about when we allow non-high-risk groups to expose themselves to the virus. PERIOD. Infants, kids, teens, young people, middle-aged with no conditions have zero to little risk. So we use them to develop herd. We want them infected." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does the body of evidence say on the topic of gluten, celiac disease, and non-celiac gluten sensitivity? Plus: a puzzling finding in nutritional epidemiology is painted as a conspiracy, and the FDA is getting sued by people who claim the abortion drug mifepristone was wrongly approved… twenty years ago. Block 1: (2:26) Gluten: what gluten is, what celiac disease is, whether or not it's an allergy, the genetic cause, the solution, and how to test for it Block 2: (10:04) Gluten: gluten sensitivity (NCGS) and other explanations for its symptoms, including FODMAPs Block 3: (26:12) A mystery for the ages: is ice cream… good for you? Block 4: (43:53) The lawsuit against the abortion drug mifepristone   * Jingle by Joseph Hackl * Theme music: “Fall of the Ocean Queen“ by Joseph Hackl * Assistant researcher: Nicholas Koziris   To contribute to The Body of Evidence, go to our Patreon page at: http://www.patreon.com/thebodyofevidence/. To make a one-time donation to our show, you can now use PayPal! https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=9QZET78JZWCZE Patrons get a bonus show on Patreon called “Digressions”! Check it out!   Jingle Lyrics: FODMAPs! Woo-oo! It's not gluten, it really is FODMAPs! Woo-oo! Unless you have celiac, it's really FODMAPs! Woo-oo!   F-f-f fructose, lactose, fructans Found in bread and dairy and fruits If you feel ill, just avoid these   FODMAPs! Woo-oo! Some foods have a lot of them, it's  FODMAPs! Woo-oo! Other foods are low in them, it's FODMAPs! Woo-oo!   References: 1) Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23280245-the-gluten-lie 2) Cancer incidence in people with celiac disease: https://doi.org/10.1053/gast.2002.36585 3) Testing for gluten-related disorders: https://doi.org/10.1155/2011/642452 4) Trends in gluten avoidance: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.mayocp.2016.10.012 5) First gluten sensitivity trial mentioned: https://doi.org/10.1038/ajg.2010.487 6) Second gluten sensitivity trial mentioned, with FODMAPs: https://doi.org/10.1053/j.gastro.2013.04.051 7) Crossover trial of non-celiac gluten sensitivity in children: https://doi.org/10.1038/ajg.2017.483 8) The Atlantic article on the ice cream problem: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/05/ice-cream-bad-for-you-health-study/673487/ 9) Scientific American's write-up on the legal case surrounding mifepristone: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mifepristone-is-safe-a-court-ruling-reducing-access-to-it-is-dangerous/   It's Not Twitter, But It'll Do: 1) Jonathan's interview in the Tribune: https://www.thetribune.ca/sci-tech/combatting-pseudoscience-with-reason-and-rationality-030423/ 2) Dr. Jonathan Howard's book, We Want Them Infected: https://redhawkpublications.com/We-Want-Them-Infected-p547021769 3) Chris' article on the misguided use of honey to treat allergies: https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/christopher-labos-no-eating-honey-wont-help-your-seasonal-allergies   Music Credits: The following music was used for this media project: Music: Wish For Victory by MusicLFiles Free download: https://filmmusic.io/song/8102-wish-for-victory License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license