Podcasts about toxic tech

The popular thing to do when faced with a toxic software project - is to complain until you get out. But a healthier alternative, is to use it as an opportunity to get stronger in your tech career. In this episode I share some things I learned by reflecting back on my career through the lens of the book of Proverbs from the Christian Bible. It showed me that I actually have more opportunities to grow than I thought when I deal with difficult software projects. I hope that even if you don't believe in the Bible, it maybe causes you to step back and look at your suffering through a different lens. And if you do believe, it encourages you to put your faith to action whether you're a programmer, product manager, QA tester, in DevOps - or really any role on a software project! Download my free Career Guide here:  https://jaymeedwards.com/developer-career-guide/ Get free access to TechRolepedia here:  https://jaymeedwards.com/access-techrolepedia/ Need help with your career? Learn about career coaching:   https://jaymeedwards.com/services/software-development-coaching/ You can also watch this episode on YouTube.  Chapter markers / timelinks: (1:07) 5 Ways To Grow From a Toxic Project  (3:11) 1. Gain Resilience Through Adversity  (7:40) 2. Enhance Problem Solving Skills  (12:20) 3. Improve Collaboration Skills  (18:39) 4. Grow Empathy and Leadership Skills (22:56) 5. Increase Appreciation for Positive Jobs (26:20) A Story of a Toxic Hire (30:00) Episode Groove Visit me at JaymeEdwards.com Find me on X as @jaymeedwards Find me on Instagram as jayme.c.edwards

If you're about to get a new tech job, sometimes the red flags are obvious. But what happens when you want the gig anyway? The temptation to take a job when the pay is high, there's prestige, or it's a promotion are strong. In this episode I share some things I've learned about spotting these red flags, and resisting the temptations that come with the allure of tech company offers. I hope they help you take a more healthy job, and not get sucked into working for a company that drains your soul. Get free access to TechRolepedia here:  https://jaymeedwards.com/access-techrolepedia/ Download my free Career Guide here:  https://jaymeedwards.com/developer-career-guide/ Need help with your career? Learn about career coaching:   https://jaymeedwards.com/services/software-development-coaching/ You can also watch this episode on YouTube.  Chapter markers / timelinks: (1:16) A Story of Deceit (6:32) 1. Red Flags of a Toxic Tech Company (6:52) 1.1 Vague Answers About Work/Life Balance (8:18) 1.2 Long Hours Are a Bade of Honor (10:02) 1.3 Suspiciously High Salary of Title  (11:34) 2. Why Do We Ignore Red Flags? (11:40) 2.1 Justifying Stress With Money (13:27) 2.2 "It's a Stepping Stone" (15:54) 2.3 Need to "Prove Our Worth" (18:03) 3. How Can You Overcome The Temptation? (18:12) 3.1 Make a Relational Impact List (20:13) 3.2 Ask Brave Questions (22:51) 3.3 Avoid Companies That Resist Transparency (24:22) 3.4 Listen to Your Gut! (26:20) 3.5 Write a Catastrophic Story (28:31) Episode Groove Visit me at JaymeEdwards.com Find me on X as @jaymeedwards Find me on Instagram as jayme.c.edwards

If you're a designer who has been told to “Prove your value.” “Justify your presence.” “Demonstrate impact.” only to find yourself throwing yourself against the wall of immutable organisational structure and culture, what do you do?" asks Sara Wachter-Boettcher Power of Ten is a show about design operating at all levels of zoom, from thoughtful detail to changes in organisation, society and the world, hosted by design leadership coach, Andy Polaine. My guest is author, strategist, facilitator, speaker and coach Sara Wacther-Boettcher recently wrote on Medium an insightful essay called "Hey designers, they're gaslighting you". She explains why these phrases have convinced designers that they're the problem — that if they just worked harder, they'd be taken seriously. But if just doing more we're going to fix the problem… it'd be fixed by now. SHOW LINKS SARA - Sara's website - https://www.sarawb.com - Sara on Medium - https://medium.com/@sara_ann_marie - Sara on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/saraboettcher/ - Hey designers, they're gaslighting you. - https://medium.com/nice-work-from-active-voice/hey-designers-theyre-gaslighting-you-e02e5a4d9cff - Design for Real Life - https://abookapart.com/products/design-for-real-life - Content Everywhere - https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/content-everywhere/ - Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech - https://bookshop.org/p/books/technically-wrong-sexist-apps-biased-algorithms-and-other-threats-of-toxic-tech-sara-wachter-boettcher/11186625 - Per My Last E-Mail podcast - https://pmleshow.com ANDY • Andy's website - https://www.polaine.com • Subscribe to Power of Ten - https://pln.me/p10 • Subscribe to Andy's newsletter Doctor's Note - https://pln.me/nws • Andy's YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/@apolaine • Andy's online courses - https://courses.polaine.com • Andy on Mastodon - https://pkm.social/@apolaine • Andy on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/apolaine/ • Suggestions? Feedback? Get in touch! - https://www.polaine.com/contact

Designers, you've been sold a lie. You've been told you need to work harder, do more with less and prove your value. You've done all that but it's left you frustrated, misaligned and burnt out.In this episode, Sara Wachter-Boettcher lifts the lid on the bottled up feelings so many designers have right now. Sara digs into the roots of where these (often well intended) messages are coming from and how you can manage them, putting your own needs and well-being first. Sara shares valuable advice to help to reframe your definition of success and your own value and reclaim agency of your work and career trajectory.Sara is a CEO of Active Voice where she helps people in tech and design become bold leaders by helping them understand themselves first. Sara was a content and UX consultant on responsible and inclusive design and she's also the author of three books - Design for Real Life (with Eric Meyer), Content Everywhere and Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech.ShownotesSara on Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/saraboettcher/Sign up for the newsletter to learn about upcoming 2024 programshttps://www.activevoicehq.com Attend Sara's “Reclaim your power” workshop on 8th December 1-4pm ET (pay what you wish)https://www.activevoicehq.com/reclaim-your-powerHey designers, they're gaslighting you.https://medium.com/nice-work-from-active-voice/hey-designers-theyre-gaslighting-you-e02e5a4d9cffShow creditsIllustrations by Isa Vicentehttps://www.instagram.com/isadezgz/Music by Brad Porterhttps://prtr.co/Follow Design Feeling on social! LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/company/designfeelingco Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/designfeelingco/ Twitterhttps://twitter.com/designfeelingco TikTokhttps://www.tiktok.com/@designfeelingco Facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/designfeelingco

Sara Wachter-Boettcher inspires us through her actions, reminds us why it's important to see shades of grey, and helps us to design the careers we actually want. Highlights include: Is it career limiting to enforce a work/life boundary? Do we have to accept that companies exist to serve shareholders? Should we ever sacrifice our wellbeing to solve important problems? Who or what inspired you to become a feminist leader? Why are some people uncomfortable with life's shades of grey? ====== Who is Sara Wachter-Boettcher? Sara is the CEO of Active Voice, a leadership development company that's on a mission to make work culture better for everyone - in particular those of us working in design and tech.  Through Active Voice, Sara helps organisations - like LinkedIn, Etsy, and Mastercard - to build radical and courageous leadership practices, the kind needed for today's world. She does this through 1-on-1 coaching, workshops and the facilitation of strategy sessions. Before starting Active Voice in 2020, Sara was the Principal of Rare Union, a content strategy and user experience consultancy. Sara also ran a feminist leadership community and event series called Collective Strength, and hosted a podcast for feminists called Strong Feelings.  She is the author of three influential books, Content Everywhere: Strategy and Structure for Future-Ready Content, Design for Real Life, and Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech. ====== Find Sara here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saraboettcher/ Medium: https://medium.com/nice-work-from-active-voice Website: https://www.sarawb.com/ ====== Liked what you heard and want to hear more? Subscribe and support the show by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts (or wherever you listen). Follow us on our other social channels for more great Brave UX content! YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/TheSpaceInBetween/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-space-in-between/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thespaceinbetw__n/ ====== Hosted by Brendan Jarvis: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendanjarvis/ Website: https://thespaceinbetween.co.nz/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/brendanjarvis/

Today, I'm talking to Sara Wachter-Boettcher.-Sara currently is the founder and CEO of Active Voice, a leadership development company on a mission to make work culture better for everyone.-In 2018, Sara wrote a book titled “Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech.” From the title of the book, you know that this episode will be different from the rest. We talked about the…not-so-great and even harmful side of the tech industry and advice for junior designers who are about to enter the workplace. There are a ton of golden nuggets in this episode, and I'm sure you'll learn as much as I did. So without further ado, here was my conversation with Sara Wachter-Boettcher.===Highlights⭐ Discussion about Sara's 2018 book “Technically Wrong”⭐ What has changed in tech workplace culture⭐ Problematic area of the design industry⭐ Things good to know for junior designers before entering the workplace⭐ What should junior designers do if they join a bad company===Not Just Pixels is a student-led UX Design podcast that strives to help you grow as a designer and get that next design internship or job. This is the podcast I wished I had as a design student, and I hope you'll get something valuable from this show.===Have a great day! :)

What are electromagnetic frequencies? (AKA EMF)Can you sense or feel EMF?How can EMF effect our health and even our wildlife?Join Integrative Intuitive Medium Kara Lovehart with special guest R. Blank as they discuss:The scientifically-established health effects of EMF & 5GWhy self-care should include building a healthier relationship with technology Effects of EMF on reproductionWho is at the highest risk (and why)How EMF affects immune system function?=Current Tech safety regulations for EMFEasy and FREE ways everyone can live healthier and manage EMF exposureAbout R. Blank R Blank is the CEO of Shield Your Body, whose mission it is to MakeTechnology Safer. With hundreds of thousands of customers in over 30countries, and having been interviewed on platforms ranging from ABCtelevision to ElectricSense, R is an internationally followed expert on issuesof EMF, health and safety. He was inspired to create SYB when he co-authoredthe best-selling book, ‘Overpowered', with his father, Dr. Martin Blank, one ofthe world's leading EMF scientists and it is widely regarded as one of the best books written on the science of the health  effects of EMF radiation.   He has degrees from Columbia University  and UCLA and now hosts the new Healthier Tech Podcast.R Blank has a 20-year career in software development for bluechip firmsincluding Apple, NBC, Disney, Microsoft, the NFL, IKEA and Mattel. R also co-founded Wildform where he co-created the first video encoder for Flash (soldto Google).He has served on the affiliate faculty at the University of California, Santa Cruzin the Digital Arts and New Media (DANM) program, and previously on thefaculty of the University of Southern California Viterbi School of Engineering.Interested in EMF Protection Products?Visit Shield Your Body Website AND REMEMBER Coupon Code:  DETOXEMF for 15% OFF!For More Integrative Intuitive Wellness & Holistic Info: 

For years, Dr Kristy Goodwin has researched, written about and educated audiences about the ways in which technology impacts and shapes children's, teens' and adults' wellbeing, health and learning. Digital wellbeing is a thing. As is a Technotantrum. As is Technoguilt. As are ‘Screen-agers' (I invented that mid-show). Kristy refers to all the stuff we do with technology (good and bad) as our ‘digital behaviours' (so many new terms!). This was fascinating and confronting and if I'm being honest, I may have some issues. Shocker. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The InnovatEd Learning Podcast is back for 2022! In this first episode of season 2, Tech Tami (TT) shares thoughts on an opinion piece about the toxic nature of tech. Also, TT reviews a new-ish web tool for amping up student-led classroom discussions. Finally, the Q & A segment [that no really asked for], "Ask Tech Tami", is back! Enjoy and thank you for listening.

In Episode 64, Sara Wachter-Boettcher, Founder of Active Voice, joins Melinda in a discussion on how pandemic-related trauma affects leaders' abilities to manage their teams. Sara provides practical tips on how we can regain access to our critical thinking and work through the trauma without harming people around us. She also touches on what organizations, managers, and allies can do to build trust and create a safe space for courageous conversations in the workplace.About SaraSara Wachter-Boettcher is an author, speaker, coach, and strategist dedicated to changing design and tech for good. She's the founder of Active Voice, a coaching and training company helping organizations build radical, courageous leadership practices.Her most recent book, Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech, was named one of the best tech books of the year by Wired. She also wrote Design for Real Life (with Eric Meyer) and Content Everywhere, and has been published in The Washington Post, The Guardian, and McSweeney's. Find her at home in Philly, on Twitter @sara_ann_marie or at sarawb.com.Find Leading With Empathy & Allyship useful? Subscribe to our podcast and like this episode!For more about Change Catalyst, and to join us for our monthly live event, visit https://ally.cc. There, you'll also find educational resources and highlights from this episode.Connect On SocialYouTube: youtube.com/c/changecatalystTwitter: twitter.com/changecatalystsFacebook: facebook.com/changecatalystsInstagram: instagram.com/techinclusionLinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/changecatalystsProduction TeamCreator & Host: Melinda Briana EplerProject Manager: Emilie MaasFinance & Operations: Renzo SantosMarketing Communications Coordinator: Christina Swindlehurst ChanCreative Director @ Podcast Rocket: Rob Scheerbarth[Image description: Leading With Empathy & AllyShip promo with the Change Catalyst logo and photos of Sara Wachter-Boettcher, a White woman with short black hair who's wearing a black denim jacket paired with a white top, and host Melinda Briana Epler, a White woman with red hair, glasses, and orange shirt holding a white mug behind a laptop.]Support the show (http://patreon.com/changecatalysts)

Paul Carr – tech journalist, author, and co-founder of Chairman Mom, an online community for working women – gets real about the state of Silicon Valley and tells us why and how we need to combat the problem of toxic tech. We also talk to gender-free fashion platform The Phluid Project and identify this week's next big consumer opportunity for brands.

In der 43. Folge von "read only" sprechen wir mit Sara Wachter-Boettcher, welche das Buch “Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech” vorstellt.

Raising kids in the digital age means there is no escaping the question about screens. Actually, it's a long list of questions. How much screen time is ok? Does it depend on the activity? When should my child get their own tablet, device, or smartphone? What's healthy? What's not? And what is meant by clean vs toxic tech habits? In this episode I talk with Melanie Hempe, founder and executive director of ScreenStrong, an organization that offers a unique approach to eliminate childhood screen dependency. Together, we take a closer look at society's acceptance of toxic screen use and discuss how to help parents and children reject the pressure to engage early with gaming, social media, and smartphones. Media Savvy Moms is a podcast by ParentsAware, an organization dedicated to helping parents talk to their children and teens about pornography and healthy sexuality. For complete show notes, visit http://parentsaware.info/index.php/podcast/.

Technology can be wonderful and it has made our lives easier in so many ways - even in the current pandemic. Yet it is also the "fire of our times" and a real flashpoint for many families. Why is that? Child Psychiatrist and author Dr Shimi Kang talks about this from a brain science perspective and explains how the various neurochemicals in our brain are impacted by technology use, even to the point of addiction. She describes some very practical ways we can shift our tech diet from "junk food" to "health food". Afterwards access her free resources in our shownotes.

Sara Wachter-Boettcher Sara Wachter-Boettcher helps design and content professionals discover and express their leadership ability. Leaders can come from anywhere. You don't have to be in a management role. With some personal work and a little courage, you can lead from wherever you are in the digital design and content world. Sara and I talked about: the difference between leadership and management her definition of leadership the importance of recognizing that you don't have to be in a management role to lead the need for leadership in our current world situation the many internal and external messages that can lead to impostor syndrome the many ways to beging developing the reflection and other inner skills that are the foundation of leadership how work culture and tech culture can suppress our humanness the importance of recognizing what you bring to the leadership game as you observe and model other leaders the very real and justified bases for having some fear around speaking up as a leader the importance of periodically taking a realistic assessment of the amount of risk you can take - identifying the times when it's OK to be bold how to recognize that you have grown and when to make choices that you might not have made a couple of years earlier her personal challenges with balancing her identity as a content strategist with her current focus on coaching (especially in 2020) the importance in challenging times of checking in with yourself and thinking about what you need to do - "Are you willing to pause and listen to your gut?" Sara's Bio Sara Wachter-Boettcher is an author, speaker, coach, and strategist dedicated to changing design and tech for good. She's the founder of Active Voice, a coaching and training company helping organizations build radical, courageous leadership practices. Her most recent book, Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech, was named one of the best tech books of the year by Wired. She also wrote Design for Real Life (with Eric Meyer) and Content Everywhere, and has been published in The Washington Post, The Guardian, and McSweeney's. Find her at home in Philly, on Twitter @sara_ann_marie, or at sarawb.com. Resources Mentioned in the Podcast Brené Brown's leadership website Denise Jacob's Banish Your Inner Critic book Video Here's the video version of our conversation: https://youtu.be/gHa8rAb6lI4 Podcast Intro Transcript There's a clear distinction between management and leadership. The two practices are often conflated, but they're really quite different. Sara Wachter-Boettcher helps design and content professionals understand the differences and become effective leaders. You need to do some serious self assessment, and you'll probably need to take some risks, but the benefits of improving your leadership game can be enormous. At the very least, you'll grow as a person. At best, you can restore some humanity to a sometimes bleak digital work culture. Interview Transcript Larry: Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 82 of the Content Strategy Insights Podcast. I'm really happy to be welcoming back Sara Wachter-Boettcher. Sara was on the show, god, more than two years ago, way back in the early days. I'm really happy to have you back. Sara, for the two of you who don't know who she is, I'll just quickly talk about, Sara's a long time or a real content strategy pioneer, a UX practitioner, and she's moved on now, and that's what we're going to talk about today, into more leadership roles around content and design practice. She's really, I think, justifiably well known for the book she's done, Content Everywhere, Design for Real Life, and Technically Wrong. But anyhow, welcome to the show, Sara. Tell the folks a little bit more about what you're up to these days and welcome. Sara: Yeah, sure. Thank you, Larry, it's great to be back. So, yeah,

Sara Wachter-Boettcher Sara Wachter-Boettcher helps design and content professionals discover and express their leadership ability. Leaders can come from anywhere. You don't have to be in a management role. With some personal work and a little courage, you can lead from wherever you are in the digital design and content world. Sara and I talked about: the difference between leadership and management her definition of leadership the importance of recognizing that you don't have to be in a management role to lead the need for leadership in our current world situation the many internal and external messages that can lead to impostor syndrome the many ways to beging developing the reflection and other inner skills that are the foundation of leadership how work culture and tech culture can suppress our humanness the importance of recognizing what you bring to the leadership game as you observe and model other leaders the very real and justified bases for having some fear around speaking up as a leader the importance of periodically taking a realistic assessment of the amount of risk you can take - identifying the times when it's OK to be bold how to recognize that you have grown and when to make choices that you might not have made a couple of years earlier her personal challenges with balancing her identity as a content strategist with her current focus on coaching (especially in 2020) the importance in challenging times of checking in with yourself and thinking about what you need to do - "Are you willing to pause and listen to your gut?" Sara's Bio Sara Wachter-Boettcher is an author, speaker, coach, and strategist dedicated to changing design and tech for good. She’s the founder of Active Voice, a coaching and training company helping organizations build radical, courageous leadership practices. Her most recent book, Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech, was named one of the best tech books of the year by Wired. She also wrote Design for Real Life (with Eric Meyer) and Content Everywhere, and has been published in The Washington Post, The Guardian, and McSweeney’s. Find her at home in Philly, on Twitter @sara_ann_marie, or at sarawb.com. Resources Mentioned in the Podcast Brené Brown's leadership website Denise Jacob's Banish Your Inner Critic book Video Here’s the video version of our conversation: https://youtu.be/gHa8rAb6lI4 Podcast Intro Transcript There's a clear distinction between management and leadership. The two practices are often conflated, but they're really quite different. Sara Wachter-Boettcher helps design and content professionals understand the differences and become effective leaders. You need to do some serious self assessment, and you'll probably need to take some risks, but the benefits of improving your leadership game can be enormous. At the very least, you'll grow as a person. At best, you can restore some humanity to a sometimes bleak digital work culture. Interview Transcript Larry: Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 82 of the Content Strategy Insights Podcast. I'm really happy to be welcoming back Sara Wachter-Boettcher. Sara was on the show, god, more than two years ago, way back in the early days. I'm really happy to have you back. Sara, for the two of you who don't know who she is, I'll just quickly talk about, Sara's a long time or a real content strategy pioneer, a UX practitioner, and she's moved on now, and that's what we're going to talk about today, into more leadership roles around content and design practice. She's really, I think, justifiably well known for the book she's done, Content Everywhere, Design for Real Life, and Technically Wrong. But anyhow, welcome to the show, Sara. Tell the folks a little bit more about what you're up to these days and welcome. Sara: Yeah, sure. Thank you, Larry, it's great to be back. So, yeah,

Human Potential and Parenting Expert Nikki Bush takes a look at toxic tech and tots, with so many young children in their formative years under the age of 6 spending hours every day on screens’.        See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Shimi Kang, author of The Tech Solution and Dolphin Parenting, spreads the word on the three types of tech use (toxic, junk, & healthy) and the consequences of each. Plus how to manage any new apps that teens might get into.

Sara Wachter-Boettcher is an author, speaker, coach, and strategist dedicated to changing design and tech for good. She’s the founder of Active Voice, a coaching and training company helping organizations build radical, courageous leadership practices. Her most recent book, Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech, was named one of the best tech books of the year by Wired. She also wrote Design for Real Life (with Eric Meyer) and Content Everywhere, and has been published in The Washington Post, The Guardian, and McSweeney’s. Find her at home in Philly, on Twitter @sara_ann_marie, or at sarawb.com.

In episode 4 the guys talk about Travis’ latest video “Toxic Tech” where he examines how the tech community is destroying itself. Greg is unsure and challenges Travis on one of his concepts. The iPhone 11 is selling really well and the guys talk about the strategy behind Apple’s price cut. . Here are the 2 Youtube videos the guys talked about: Toxic Tech https://youtu.be/Nhk8SWaim4g Everyone is wrong about the iPhone XR (Don’t watch this) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d08eY8UYss0 Don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform! Check out Greg on: Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/gregsgadgets Twitter https://twitter.com/gregorymcfadden Instagram https://www.instagram.com/gregsgadgets Travis can be found on Youtube: www.youtube.com/travismcp Twitter www.twitter.com/travismcp Instagram www.instagram.com/travismcp --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/gadgetcast/message

I: Herzlich willkommen zum IT-Manager-Podcast. Heute geht es um das Thema „Ist jetzt eigentlich alles AI? Zwischen Hype, starker und schwacher AI“, und ich habe dazu als Gast Herrn Ulrich Kerzel von der IUBH Fernstudium im Interview. Herr Kerzel verantwortet die Professur für Data Science And Artificial Intelligence. Hallo Herr Kerzel, schön, dass Sie da sind.  B: Guten Morgen, hallo, ich freue mich sehr, dabei zu sein.  I: Lassen Sie die Hörer doch noch ein bisschen mehr über Ihre Person wissen.  B: Ja, ursprünglich bin ich von Hause aus Physiker und komme eigentlich aus der Teilchenphysik und war auch sehr lange an internationalen Großforschungseinrichtungen wie zum Beispiel dem Fermilab in der Nähe von Chicago und dem CERN bei Genf in der Schweiz. Ich sage mal, in meiner Diplomarbeit beschäftigte ich mich damit, aus Daten Erkenntnisse zu gewinne und dies mit künstlicher Intelligenz zu tun. Das mache ich jetzt seit knapp zwanzig Jahren, und damals gab es noch keine so großen Pakete wie man sie heute kennt, wie TensorFlow von Google oder PyTorch von Facebook. Damals mussten wir das alles selber programmieren, und auch Grafikkarten gab es im Wesentlichen eigentlich so nicht, sodass wir auf ganz anderen Voraussetzungen aufsetzten. Und dann nach vielen Jahren der Wissenschaft bin ich in die Wirtschaft gewechselt zu Blue Yonder, die heute ein Teil von JDA ist. Und Schwerpunkt meiner Arbeit war zum einen die Leitung des Teams zur Weiterentwicklung von Machine-Learning-Algorithmen, und so hat man die Betreuung von Kundenprojekten, zum Beispiel der Automatisierung von Warenwirtschaft im Handel mit künstlicher Intelligenz. Und jetzt seit Herbst 2018 bin ich als Professor für Data Science und künstliche Intelligenz bei der IUBH. I: Ja, super, das Wort „künstliche Intelligenz“ hätte es mir auch deutlicher vereinfacht, das natürlich auszusprechen anstatt den englischen Begriff „AI“ dazu. Und in dieser Folge haben wir uns ja genau diesem Thema AI, der künstlichen Intelligenz, angenommen, da man gefühlt mittlerweile ja überall damit auch konfrontiert wird. Und daher auch die Frage ja zu unserer heutigen Folge: Ist jetzt eigentlich alles AI? Zwischen Hype, starker und schwacher AI. Ich bin gespannt auf Ihren Input dazu.  B: Ja, vielen Dank. Also ich glaube, man sollte ein bisschen mal jenseits des Hypes schauen. Überall hört man ja von AI hier und künstlicher Intelligenz da, und auf der anderen Seite sieht man auch sehr spektakuläre Erfolge, die auch die Performanz von Menschen mindestens gleichziehen oder auch übertreffen. Da haben wir dann zum Beispiel vor einiger Zeit ein AlphaGo, bei dem eine Maschine auch den besten Go-Spieler geschlagen hat, und das war damals auch relativ überraschend, da Go sehr viel komplexer als Schach ist, wo man eigentlich damals nicht damit gerechnet hat, dass jetzt schon irgendwie menschliche Mitspieler von einer Maschine geschlagen werden können. Man hat schon gedacht, dass das irgendwann passiert, aber vielleicht nicht unbedingt jetzt schon. Und man hat auch festgestellt, dass in diesem Spiel die Maschine Spielzüge entwickelt hat, die traditionell Menschen so nicht gespielt haben. Und das Spiel gibt es ja schon seit mehreren Tausend Jahren. Und es gibt auch viele weitere große Erfolge von AI, zum Beispiel bei der Erkennung von Hautkrebs, wo die Leistung von dem System die Leistung von menschlichen Spitzendermatologen übertreffen. Auf der anderen Seite hört man jetzt aber auch so auf den Artificial Intelligence, AI, künstliche Intelligenz, dass sich ja schon irgendwo auch der Eindruck aufdrängt, dass das jetzt alles nur ein Hype ist. Es gibt sogar eine aktuelle Studie von den MMC Ventures, die haben sich ungefähr dreitausend AI-Start-ups in 13 europäischen Ländern mal genauer angeschaut, und die sind zu dem Schluss gekommen, dass vierzig Prozent gar keine AI da drinnen haben. Und dann ist natürlich die Frage: Was heißt das jetzt eigentlich alles? Und dann wird es schon ein bisschen schwammiger, weil wir eigentlich nicht so genau definiert haben, was AI eigentlich ist. I: Das kann ich sehr gut nachvollziehen. Wie kann man denn dieses besser definieren? B: Ja, wenn wir uns den Begriff der künstlichen Intelligenz einmal nähern wollen, ist das gar nicht so einfach zu sehen, was damit gemeint ist. Das hängt auch damit zusammen, dass wir uns selber schwer tun, den Begriff „Intelligenz“ zu definieren. Wir haben zwar eigentlich ein ganz gutes intuitives Verständnis davon, was intelligentes Verhalten ist oder was Intelligenz ist, aber bei der formellen Definition wird das dann schon schwieriger. Ich meine, wir können mal in den Duden schauen, und da steht drin, „Intelligenz ist die Fähigkeit des Menschen, abstrakt und vernünftig zu denken und daraus zweckvolles Handeln abzuleiten“. Das klingt jetzt alles ganz gut, aber so richtig konkret, was das heißen soll, daraus wird man nicht so ganz schlau. Aber man kann eines festhalten aus dieser Definition „zweckvolles Handeln abzuleiten“, das ist schon einmal ein sehr großes Merkmal. Und das heißt aber auch, dass dieses sinnvolle oder zweckvolle Handeln auf eine konkrete Situation bezogen ist. Wenn man sich jetzt den Bereich der künstlichen Intelligenz anschaut, dann unterscheidet man zwischen starker und schwacher oder anders allgemeiner oder spezifischer Intelligenz, das sind jeweils zwei synonyme Begriffe. Unter der starken oder allgemeinen künstlichen Intelligenz versteht man Systeme, die ganz allgemein selbst denken, also hier wäre das Ziel, ein System zu entwickeln, das quasi wie ein künstliches Wesen in der Umwelt zurechtkäme und leben könnte im Sinne, dass es mit uns interagieren könnte. Es könnte zum Beispiel sich mit uns unterhalten oder sich verhalten wie mein Mensch das tun würde. Man sollte jetzt aber nicht in die Falle tappen zu sagen, „Das müsste dann sich verhalten wie Mensch“, denn warum sollte sich eine künstliche Intelligenz a priori so verhalten wie wir Menschen? Auf der anderen Seite steht dann die schwache oder spezifische Intelligenz. Das sind Systeme, die in einem ganz konkreten Bereich ähnlich gut wie ein Mensch Entscheidungen treffen oder auch besser als ein Mensch Entscheidungen treffen. Und das ist zum Beispiel das, was wir bei dem Spiel Go oder bei Erkennung von Hautkrebs oder anderen Systemen gesehen haben. Und hier schließt sich dann auch wieder der Kreis zur Definition der Intelligenz, und da sind wir wieder bei der Ableitung von zweckvollem Handeln. Und dann ist auch hier eigentlich genau die Grenze zum Hype. In der Definition steht ja nichts von spezifischen Algorithmen oder Machine Learning, und vom Gefühl her denken wir heutzutage immer bei künstlicher Intelligenz daraus an große Machine Cluster, wie sie vielleicht bei Google oder bei Amazon stehen mit ganz großen Machine-Learning-Systemen, und wir denken zum Beispiel nicht an mathematische Optimierung wie Operations Research, das es ja auch schon seit langer Zeit sehr erfolgreich gibt. Auf der anderen Seite lässt sich natürlich auch aus einer ganz einfachen linearen Regression ein natürliches oder zweckmäßiges Handeln ableiten. Aber das ist nicht unbedingt das, was wir jetzt unter dem Begriff „Künstliche Intelligenz“ zusammenfassen würden. Und diese Schwammigkeit der Definition des Begriffs „Intelligenz“, die erlaubt es dann halt ganz Vielen, da diesen Deckmantel zu packen. Und dann muss man in der Tat schon sehr genau schauen, was denn damit gemeint ist. Da hilft es, den Begriff im Hype etwas aufzublähen, weil gar nicht so genau festgelegt ist, was jetzt Intelligenz ist. Aber eines ist sicher: Die Systeme entwickeln sich rasant weiter und auch jenseits eines Hypes werden fast täglich neue Erfolge errungen, die sich erst durch die große Kombination aus riesigen Datenmengen und Machine Learning möglich wären. Hier stehen wir eigentlich erst am Anfang der ganzen Entwicklung. I: Das kann ich durchaus nachvollziehen, und in vielen Bereichen sollte man tatsächlich jetzt mehr hinterfragen, wenn jemand sagt, sie beschäftigen sich mit künstlicher Intelligenz oder haben Komponenten von künstlicher Intelligenz in ihre Systeme eingebaut, dass man tatsächlich mal hinterfragt, was bedeutet es denn konkret, und damit natürlich dann auch ein bisschen besseren Hintergrund darüber bekommt. Gibt es denn spezielle Tipps, ja, für unsere Zuhörer, was diese Dinge angeht, was sie dann in Zukunft besser machen sollten? B: (lachend) Ich glaube, wenn man jetzt bewertet, was andere Firmen oder Forscher tun mit künstlicher Intelligenz, lohnt es sich, eine gesunde Skepsis mitzubringen und einfach mal zu hinterfragen, was denn eigentlich genau gemacht wird. Wenn die nur schreiben, „Hier wird künstliche Intelligenz verwendet“, kann man durchaus mal nachfragen, „Und was heißt das jetzt? Und wo wird sie verwendet, und was soll diese AI jetzt tun? Oder was macht sie anders als man das beispielsweise mit einer mathematischen Optimierung machen würde?“ Abgesehen davon gibt es natürlich auch sehr grundlegende Forschungsarbeiten zur allgemeinen künstlichen Intelligenz. Ob und wann das passieren wird, das kann man jetzt, glaube ich, gar nicht absehen. Das heißt was wir in der Praxis sehen, ist die schwache oder spezifische künstliche Intelligenz, und da kann man auch genau fragen, wo denn diese Intelligenz stecken soll. I: Ja. Und haben Sie eine konkrete Empfehlung, wenn sich unsere Zuhörer ja deutlich detaillierter mit diesem Thema AI, also auch künstliche Intelligenz, im Prinzip beschäftigen wollen und da tiefer einsteigen wollen, weil sie das für ihre zukünftige Arbeit auch verwenden wollen? Was können die da am sinnvollsten machen? B: Also, wer da richtig tief einsteigen möchte, dem würde ich empfehlen, unsere Kurse im Fernstudium ab nächstem Frühjahr, ab nächstem Februar zu besuchen, da bieten wir auf Bachelor- und auf Master-Niveau jeweils Studiengänge in Data Science und Artificial Intelligence an. Das sind eigentlich ideale Weiterbildungsmaßnahmen, die jeder ergreifen kann, um sich tief in die Systeme einzuarbeiten, auch in dieses Feld einzusteigen. I: Und die gibt es dann im Bachelor- und Master-Niveau? Oder in welchen Bereichen gibt es die? B: Genau. Die fangen im Bachelor Data Science an, das ist die Grundlage für die späteren Master-Studiengänge. Im Bachelor bieten wir Data Science an als Grundlage für die beiden weiteren, und im Master kommen dann spezialisiert Master Data Science und Master Artificial Intelligence, je nachdem, in welche Richtung man jetzt gehen möchte. I: Super. Falls das für Sie als Zuhörer interessant sein sollte: Wir werden natürlich die Links zu diesen Studiengängen in die Shownotes mit einbringen, dann haben Sie es ein bisschen einfacher, da direkt drauf zuzugreifen. Was mich und auch sicherlich die Zuhörer noch interessieren würde: Haben Sie gute Buchempfehlungen zum Thema AI? B: Ja, da ändert sich natürlich gerade alles rasant, also fast jedes Buch, was man so sagen möchte, was jetzt rauskommt, hat ja mindestens zwei Jahre Vorlaufzeit und ist schon quasi gar nicht mehr dem aktuellen Markt hinterher. Ich glaube aber, was man empfehlen könnte, ist der Klassiker, sage ich mal, von Stuart Russell und Peter Norvig, der heißt Artificial Intelligence, A Modern Approach. Das ist ein Lehrbuch, das in sehr vielen Universitätsstudiengängen eingesetzt wird, und gibt einen großen Überblick über die Hintergründe von Artificial Intelligenz und künstlicher Intelligenz. Und ein anderes Buch, was eher nicht technisch ist, das finde ich auch sehr lesenswert, das ist von Sarah Wachter-Boettcher, das heißt Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threads of Toxic Tech. Das beschäftigt sich eigentlich sehr allgemeinpopulärwissenschaftlich mit der Frage, welchen Einfluss AI eigentlich auf unser Leben hat, und insbesondere dadurch, wie Algorithmen einen Bias entwickeln können, da es ja aus den Daten lernt, die wir einem solchen Algorithmus, einer solchen künstlichen Intelligenz geben und welchen Einfluss das auf unser Leben hat. Das ist eigentlich ganz spannend zu lesen, wie man abseits von rein technischen Fragestellungen dann sieht, welche Konsequenzen sich eigentlich daraus ergeben auf unser Leben. I: Da bin ich ja schon gespannt, welches der Bücher ich dann in meine Buchliste mit aufnehmen werde, vermutlich eher die nicht so technische Variante (lachend) für mich, aber ich glaube, es gibt genug Hörer, die tatsächlich dort auch so einen Deep Dive tatsächlich machen möchten, und je nachdem, ob Studiengang oder nicht, tatsächlich mal tiefer in das ganze Thema AI auch eintauchen wollen. Auch diese Buchempfehlung werden wir mit in die Shownotes mit reinnehmen. Und ich hatte mit Herrn Kerzel im Vorfeld gesprochen, auch die Kontaktdaten von ihm, seine E-Mail-Adresse, nehmen wir mit auf, sodass Sie natürlich jederzeit in der Lage sind, auch wenn Rückfragen hier gerade zu diesem Thema und  den Studiengängen ist, gerne an ihn diese Rückfragen zu richten. Ja, vielen Dank an Sie, Herr Kerzel, für dieses tolle Interview. B: Ja, herzlichen Dank, es hat mich sehr gefreut, bei Ihnen zu sein.  I: Und an Sie, liebe Zuhörer, ja, vielen Dank fürs Zuhören natürlich, und schalten Sie gerne wieder ein, wir freuen uns wieder auf Sie am nächsten Freitag, wenn unsere Episode wieder online geht. Vielen Dank fürs Zuhören und bis zum nächsten Mal, Ihr Ingo Lücker, tschüss! Kontakt: Ulrich Kerzel, u.kerzel@iubh-fernstudium.de Kontakt: Ingo Lücker, ingo.luecker@itleague.de 

Neo and Zero explore the negative effects of technology --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/nerdhousestudios/support

Responding to hate speech is difficult because its definition remains unclear. However, the reiterated theme throughout the University of Delaware's conference on free speech was the importance of positive communication. The title of the fourth session was “Are more laws necessary for responding to hate speech?” The guest speaker was Sara Wachter-Boettcher, author of Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech. UD's Communication Department hosted "Speech Limits in Public Life: At the Intersection of Free Speech and Hate" on March 14 to 15, 2019. Legal experts and free speech scholars from around the country discussed how to define hate speech and respond to it both digitally and on college campuses. Read more about the conference at www.cpc.udel.edu/news/Pages/the-speech-divide.aspx.

Neil and Fiona explore the negative impacts that our technology is having on our ability to connect, create and appreciate life, how detrimental they can be for our mental health and ways in which we can approach tech usage wisely. You can learn more about Fiona at www.fundamentals.ie and more about Neil at www.timetofly.ie 

Sponsors Netlify Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small Triplebyte offers a $1000 signing bonus CacheFly Panel Chris Fritz Ben Hong Natalia Tepluhina Joined by Special Guest: Michele Cynowicz Summary Michele Cynowicz tells the panel about working for Vox and what they do. She shares her experience integrating VueJs into their Rails applications. Michele discusses why Vox made the switch and how they chose VueJs. Michele explains how they rolled out the new application and what they might have done differently. She answers questions about using Apollo for state management and how the Vox design system works.   Links Michele Cynowicz - Shifting to Vue https://product.voxmedia.com/ https://twitter.com/michelecynowicz https://www.facebook.com/ViewsonVue https://twitter.com/viewsonvue Picks Chris Fritz: http://www.letswatchstartrek.com/ds9-episode-guide/ DBT® Skills Training Manual, Second Edition Stories of Your Life and Others   Ben Hong: Building a StoryBrand: Clarify Your Message So Customers Will Listen Natalia Tepluhina: Avengers: Endgame Michele Cynowicz: Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy

Sponsors Netlify Sentry use the code “devchat” for 2 months free on Sentry small Triplebyte offers a $1000 signing bonus CacheFly Panel Chris Fritz Ben Hong Natalia Tepluhina Joined by Special Guest: Michele Cynowicz Summary Michele Cynowicz tells the panel about working for Vox and what they do. She shares her experience integrating VueJs into their Rails applications. Michele discusses why Vox made the switch and how they chose VueJs. Michele explains how they rolled out the new application and what they might have done differently. She answers questions about using Apollo for state management and how the Vox design system works.   Links Michele Cynowicz - Shifting to Vue https://product.voxmedia.com/ https://twitter.com/michelecynowicz https://www.facebook.com/ViewsonVue https://twitter.com/viewsonvue Picks Chris Fritz: http://www.letswatchstartrek.com/ds9-episode-guide/ DBT® Skills Training Manual, Second Edition Stories of Your Life and Others   Ben Hong: Building a StoryBrand: Clarify Your Message So Customers Will Listen Natalia Tepluhina: Avengers: Endgame Michele Cynowicz: Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy

Why, when and how did the tech industry get so blokey? What are the consequences of having a male-dominated technology sector? And how are people trying to change things? These are some of the questions Mary Ann Sieghart tries to answer in 'A Job For The Boys', a BBC Radio 4 documentary produced by Sarah Bowen.

EPISODE Episode 18 TITLE Women’s Experiences Matter and Women’s Emotional Lives Matter GUEST Sara Wachter-Boettcher EPISODE OVERVIEW Sara talks about the importance of centering on women’s voices in media, and the importance of showing women in deep, rich, emotional conversations with each other in order to show how powerful it can be when we are vulnerable, and open and honest with each other. Sara talks about the common beliefs that prevent people from taking it to the next level, and steps they can take to get there. We talk about the value of learning from what didn’t work out, and often success is more about the process than the end result. We talk a quote someone said, “You can be a hot mess, and be successful.” HIGHLIGHTS In many environments, women are taught that in order to get ahead, they need to stuff all their feelings down, and that’s what professionalism means Women are taught that to be good at their jobs, they should be more unfeeling; more unstoic, and then they are perceived as unlikable when they are those things We’re extremely good at what we do. We’re competent; we’re ambitious, and we are successful, and we are also people that are unashamed to say, “Hey, I cried twice today.” I’m still good at what I do; I’m still competent and I’m still successful The contradicting messages women receive—you’re too aggressive, and you need to speak up. There are double standards for women, and a narrow tightrope for women to walk in order to be perceived as “just right.” You can spend your entire life just trying to do it “just right,” and still get the message that it’s not good enough We’re creating a space where we can say that none of those rules apply, and we can talk with women about things that matter to them on their own terms, so that people don’t feel less alone, and less alone in processing those toxic messages they get You can be a hot mess and successful at the same time In a male dominated culture, there is an emphasis on glossing over anything that makes you feel vulnerable. The problem with this is that people don’t learn anything from your story about being awesome. That is not helpful for someone else trying to learn from you Success is not any pure thing that doesn’t have down sides to it BIO Sara Wachter-Boettcher runs Rare Union, a strategy consultancy, and cohosts Strong Feelings, a weekly podcast about living your best feminist life at work. She's also a keynote speaker and the author of three tech/design books: Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech from W.W. Norton in 2017, Design for Real Life (with Eric Meyer) from A Book Apart in 2016, and Content Everywhere from Rosenfeld Media in 2012. Her work has been featured in The Washington Post, Slate, The Guardian, and more, and she’s spoken at dozens of events across four continents related to tech and design. LINKS Website--rareunion.com Website--strongfeelings.co   Website--www.sarawb.com   Twitter--twitter.com/sara_ann_marie Podcast—Strong Feelings Elizabeth Gilbert Big Magic  To write a review in itunes: click on this link https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/unapologetically-sensitive/id1440433481?mt=2 select “view in itunes” chose “open in itunes” choose “ratings and reviews” click to rate the number of starts click “write a review” Website--www.patriciayounglcsw.com Podcast--www.unapologeticallysensitive.com Facebook--https://www.facebook.com/Patricia-Young-LCSW-162005091044090/ Facebook group Unapologetically Sensitive-- https://www.facebook.com/groups/2099705880047619/ Instagram--https://www.instagram.com/unapologeticallysensitive/ Youtube--https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOE6fodj7RBdO3Iw0NrAllg/videos?view_as=subscriber e-mail—unapologeticallysensitive@gmail.com Show hashtag--#unapologeticallysensitive MUSIC—Gravel Dance by Andy Robinson www.andyrobinson.com

Sara Wachter-Boettcher discusses her book "Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech," which reveals how tech industry's biases and blind spots are baked into digital products and ultimately harm us. Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech https://amzn.to/2yGOzEC http://www.swingleft.org/electorette Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the fifth in a special series in partnership with The Federation, exploring ethics in tech. In this episode, we talk about 'Toxic Tech' with Sara Wachter-Boettcher. She talks to us about the concepts in her book Technically Wrong, Sexist apps, biased algorithms and other threats of toxic tech. Buying groceries, tracking our health, finding a date: whatever we want to do odds are we can do online but how often do we question the design of these products and experiences? Many of the services we rely on are full of oversights, biases, and downright ethical nightmares. Chatbots that harass women, sign up forms that fail anyone who’s not straight. Social media sites that send peppy messages about dead relatives. Algorithms that put more black people behind bars. The algorithms Facebook and other tech companies use to boost engagement – and increase profits – have led to spectacular failures of sensitivity and worse. How can we fight back? Sara is a Philadelphia-based web consultant and the author of two additional books for web professionals: Design for Real Life, with Eric Meyer and Content Everywhere. She helps organisations make sense of their digital content and is a recognised worldwide conference speaker.   Further reading: Technically Wrong, Sexist apps, biased algorithms and other threats of toxic tech. sarawb.com     Hosted by Rebecca Rae-Evans (@rebeccawho), featuring pod regular Jonny Rae-Evans (@jonnyraeevans)   Produced by @paul_yakabovski   Get in touch:Twitter: @techforgoodliveInstagram: techforgoodliveEmail: hello@techforgood.live

Buy the book! Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393634639/ref=as_li_qf_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=therubyrep-20&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0393634639&linkId=50c978567df28c98caf843e36cce54c1) 01:02 – Sara’s Superpower: Communication and Connecting the Dots 03:43 – The Process of Writing, Editing, and Communicating the Book 06:17 – A Summary of Technically Wrong 11:13 – The Harms and Risk of Data Sharing on Social Media 14:42 – Bias and Algorithms Algorithms of Oppression: How Search Engines Reinforce Racism by Safiya Umoja Noble (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1479837245/ref=as_li_qf_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=therubyrep-20&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=1479837245&linkId=893aaee0ae5d1c2134528f60421b2b66) 23:50 – Machine Learning and Image Recognition 28:48 – Ethics Training and Responsibility RubyConf 2017: Finding Responsibility by Caleb Thompson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBdBoWAtLNI) 35:45 – Paternalizm (https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalizm) / Parochialism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parochialism) Reflections: Astrid: How we can get people to start making changes based off what we basically know. John: Stress cases: Thinking about the ideal user and what are the qualities of other users that may be affected by the way something is presented? Jamey: The importance of having cultures in tech and workplaces that are not homogenized. Sara: We don’t get better at anything if we don’t talk about it and practice it. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode). To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Amazon links may be affiliate links, which means you’re supporting the show when you purchase our recommendations. Thanks! Special Guest: Sara Wachter-Boettcher.

Panel: Charles Max Wood Guest: Aurynn Shaw This week on My Ruby Story, Charles talks to Aurynn Shaw. Aurynn got into programming when she was helping clients at a contracting company deploy early web things using Perl. Programming really clicked for her when she was fascinated by how programs really work when she created her own language. Currently, she works with Python for Lambdas and is doing a lot of client work. This includes building deployment pipelines and helping them ask information security questions. She also discusses programming culture and her views on it. In particular, we dive pretty deep on:  How did you first get introduced into programming? GameDove Matt’s Script Archive Perl What made programming click for you? Writing her own language Python, Java, and JavaScript Do you work a lot with Ruby? Writing software is less relevant to what she is doing now What are you most proud of in your career? Contempt culture OpenStack Cloud in New Zealand SaltStack DevOps StartUp Weekend Her Blog Post Changed perspective on coding Hacker Culture Her Ruby Rogues Episode  What are you working on now? Information security Programming Culture And much, much more! Links:  LootCrate StartUp Weekend Contempt Culture Blog Post Ruby Rogues Episode 273 EIARA.nz Linode @Aurynn Aurynn’s GitHub Blog.Aurynn.com Picks: Charles Ready Player One by Ernest Cline Keep your mind open to what’s out there Aurynn Unwritten Laws of Engineering by W.J. King and James G. Skakoon Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech by Sara Wachter-Boettcher Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste by Pierre Bourdieu

Panel: Charles Max Wood Guest: Aurynn Shaw This week on My Ruby Story, Charles talks to Aurynn Shaw. Aurynn got into programming when she was helping clients at a contracting company deploy early web things using Perl. Programming really clicked for her when she was fascinated by how programs really work when she created her own language. Currently, she works with Python for Lambdas and is doing a lot of client work. This includes building deployment pipelines and helping them ask information security questions. She also discusses programming culture and her views on it. In particular, we dive pretty deep on:  How did you first get introduced into programming? GameDove Matt’s Script Archive Perl What made programming click for you? Writing her own language Python, Java, and JavaScript Do you work a lot with Ruby? Writing software is less relevant to what she is doing now What are you most proud of in your career? Contempt culture OpenStack Cloud in New Zealand SaltStack DevOps StartUp Weekend Her Blog Post Changed perspective on coding Hacker Culture Her Ruby Rogues Episode  What are you working on now? Information security Programming Culture And much, much more! Links:  LootCrate StartUp Weekend Contempt Culture Blog Post Ruby Rogues Episode 273 EIARA.nz Linode @Aurynn Aurynn’s GitHub Blog.Aurynn.com Picks: Charles Ready Player One by Ernest Cline Keep your mind open to what’s out there Aurynn Unwritten Laws of Engineering by W.J. King and James G. Skakoon Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech by Sara Wachter-Boettcher Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste by Pierre Bourdieu

Panel: Charles Max Wood Guest: Aurynn Shaw This week on My Ruby Story, Charles talks to Aurynn Shaw. Aurynn got into programming when she was helping clients at a contracting company deploy early web things using Perl. Programming really clicked for her when she was fascinated by how programs really work when she created her own language. Currently, she works with Python for Lambdas and is doing a lot of client work. This includes building deployment pipelines and helping them ask information security questions. She also discusses programming culture and her views on it. In particular, we dive pretty deep on:  How did you first get introduced into programming? GameDove Matt’s Script Archive Perl What made programming click for you? Writing her own language Python, Java, and JavaScript Do you work a lot with Ruby? Writing software is less relevant to what she is doing now What are you most proud of in your career? Contempt culture OpenStack Cloud in New Zealand SaltStack DevOps StartUp Weekend Her Blog Post Changed perspective on coding Hacker Culture Her Ruby Rogues Episode  What are you working on now? Information security Programming Culture And much, much more! Links:  LootCrate StartUp Weekend Contempt Culture Blog Post Ruby Rogues Episode 273 EIARA.nz Linode @Aurynn Aurynn’s GitHub Blog.Aurynn.com Picks: Charles Ready Player One by Ernest Cline Keep your mind open to what’s out there Aurynn Unwritten Laws of Engineering by W.J. King and James G. Skakoon Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech by Sara Wachter-Boettcher Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste by Pierre Bourdieu

It’s the very first episode of No, You Go! Jenn, Katel, and Sara get together to talk about the itch to get out of a professional rut and start something new—whether that’s changing jobs, launching a company, building a side gig, or maybe even…idk….starting a podcast? > Fuck it, let’s just do it. Let’s be unapologetic women asking to do work, and to be paid fairly for it. > —Becca Gurney, co-founder, Design Choice Read on for more of what we covered, and read the full transcript for all the, like, verbatim quotes, you know? Show notes First, we tell the story of how No, You Go got started: Sara has an idea, but forgets that Austin Kleon already wrote a book called Show Your Work and narrowly avoids totally ripping him off. Jenn shares what it’s like to trade a thousand side projects for some stability—and, oh yeah, one super-cool baby. Katel opens up about how working at home alone can get, well, lonely—and asks us to join her “awesome after-school kickass club.” We all fully embrace the athleisure lifestyle. Next, we kick off the show—and 2018—by hearing how four women who made big changes last year knew it was time for something new: Becca Gurney, co-founder of Design Choice, tells us how the pay gap in the AIGA Design Census plus the 2016 election turned her from freelance designer to outspoken advocate for equality in design. Jenn Schiffer, community engineer for Fog Creek’s Glitch platform, shares how fear kept her stuck in a rut and not doing her best work—until an opportunity to build community for other engineers brought her life back. Lara Hogan, co-founder of Where With All, describes how meeting her now-business-partner led her away from managing engineering teams and toward building a consulting business. Mina Markham, senior front-end architect at Slack (and creator of the famed Pantsuit design system used by the Hillary Clinton campaign), describes trusting her gut to guide her through three new jobs and three cross-country moves in just three years. Also in this episode Archie’s hair, Cheryl Blossom’s lips, and why Riverdale is our favorite CW teen drama Shout outs to Call Your Girlfriend and Shine Theory Jenn’s rad formula for speaking fees post from the Nerdary California Style Sheets forever Lara Hogan’s Donut Manifesto Our endless devotion to Olivia Pope wine glasses Final tips from designer and educator Sam Kapila Many thanks to The Diaphone for the use of their song, Maths, in our theme music! _This episode is brought to you by Codepen—a social development environment for front-end designers and developers. Build and deploy a website, show off your work, build test cases, and find inspiration. _ Transcript JENN LUKAS: This episode of No, You Go is brought to you by CodePen: a social development environment for front-end designers and developers. It’s like a big virtual sandbox where you can build and deploy a website, show off your work, build test cases, and find inspiration. Your profile on CodePen is like your front-end development portfolio. Learn more and create your first Pen at codepen.io. That’s c-o-d-e-p-e-n dot i-o. JL: Welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KATEL LEDÛ: I’m Katel LeDû. SARA WACHTER-BOETTCHER: And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. KL: In today’s inaugural episode of No, You Go, we’re talking about the itch to get out of a rut and start something new. First up, we’ll talk about how No, You Go came to be. Then we’ll listen in as a bunch of badass women tell us how they knew it was time for a change in 2017—and how they made it happen. Also on the agenda: our favorite CW teen drama, the politics of donuts, and breaking out the Olivia Pope wine glasses. [Clink] [Musical intro] How it all began [1:10] SWB: One day, I was actually out for a run with Katel. We were up in this really pretty park and it was the middle of all and we were crunching through the leaves, kind of miserably running some—some 10K distance so that we could justify donuts. And I started telling Katel that I had this podcast idea that was all about: how do you go from kind of doing the work, whatever your job is, to being able to kind of like show your work. Like, speak about it or write about it, or something. Like, how do you go from being somebody who’s kind of more heads-down to being more of that like active or visible member of your professional community? JL: Yeah! KL: Yeah! SWB: And I was like, I had this working title, like “Show Your Work” or something like that. And we were like, that sounds like a fun idea. You know, I just had a book come out in the fall and I was really interested in kind of helping other people understand what that process looks like. A lot of people ask me questions because they don’t necessarily know. JL: Me included. KL: And me! SWB: Yeah! Well, and that’s one of the things that we started to want to talk about, is like: how does that whole thing work? And that’s, you know, just one example, right? I mean, it’s not just writing a book, it’s also like, how do you go from working in a field to like, teaching other people how to do it and leading classes. Those kinds of questions. So, I really wanted to start talking about that more, and Katel was the publisher of one of my books, and so I thought she would be like an ideal person to talk about that with. KL: And I thought that was a great idea. I think “Show Your Work” was actually an awesome name for a show—we should do that also. JL: Let’s get this one off the ground first! KL: All right, okay. So, yeah, I am the CEO of A Book Apart and published one of Sara’s books—it’s amazing. And I moved to Philly about two years ago after living in DC for most of my life, and Sara and I became besties really quickly because we had a lot in common. Namely, loving slash hating running and hating running to love donuts, even more. So, one night we were all sitting actually at Jenn’s house, and we were drinking wine and watching Riverdale as we do—we’d all gotten together and [that’s] another thing that we loved and had in common. And we brought it up to Jenn and she got really excited. JL: To be fair, Sara’s giving me that look like, “I’m not quite sure I’m sold on the Riverdale.” SWB: No! I was just thinking, can we have a sidebar about Archie’s hair for a second? JL: Mhmm, Archie’s hair. KL: And now, did you know Sara’s really into Riverdale? JL: Ooh! Did you catch up? SWB: I am super caught up. And Archie’s hair is still ridiculous. And I’m pretty sure that Cheryl Blossom’s lip liner gets bigger and bigger every single episode. JL: It’s awesome. SWB: It’s gonna be her entire face soon. KL: It’s so good. Maybe that’s what I need to do, is just go big with the liner. JL: I love it. You know, I forget, Katel, if you told me this—I always had a problem with Archie’s hair but then, you brought up that like, it helps if you remember that it’s a comic book and then it makes the extreme-ness of his hair a little bit more acceptable. KL: Right, it’s like, it makes the TV show juicy, or like, pulpy? I mean… “juicy” is maybe not the right word, but you know what I mean! SWB: No, no, no, let’s stick with juicy. JL: No, I do know what you mean! And you know, sometimes we just have to watch an episode of Riverdale after a long day. SWB: For professional reasons. JL: But for me, it was super awesome because I just had a child ten months ago, yes indeed. And so, with a child and I’m back working full time—I work as an engineering manager and UI architect down at Urban Outfitters. And sometimes, my lovely friends will come over after my child goes to sleep and we’ll watch Riverdale and talk shop. Which is awesome, ’cause you start to feel a little bit alienated to some extent, from your previous life and you have this awesome new life going one. But then you like, miss parts of your old, so it was really nice to have my friends come to me so that I could keep trying to figure out how to make this balance work. And maybe balance isn’t even the right word, but to like figure out how I can keep doing things that I love along with the new things I love. So, it was super awesome. [5:00] SWB: Yeah, something Jenn has not quite mentioned, is just how much stuff she used to do in terms of like, speaking and side projects, constantly. Like, when I first met Jenn, every other week, I swear it was like, “Oh, I just started this podcast called Ladies In Tech,” or “Oh, I’m working on this web series called Cook Inside the Box, where we make recipes off the back of boxes.” And it was so cool to see her doing all this stuff, and like a lot of people, it’s really hard to do all of that stuff when you have really little kids and a lot of kind of, responsibilities at work. But what we want to talk about, is, how do we make space for some of that and kind of integrate it into our lives no matter what other stuff is going on. JL: That’s what was so nice about talking with you two, is figuring out how that can work. And I know you’ve both been amazing soundbars for me. And I feel very lucky to have both of you in my life and I think that is a lot about what we’re basing this podcast on. It’s like, how we can be stronger together with people who support us and figuring out how to do these things. Even if you’re working with new—and I mean, using a stretch here of calling it a constraint—but, we’re used to like, how we work with constraints. And this is just a new, different part of my life, and it’s really nice to be able to talk to y’all about how that works. KL: This also feels like just a really awesome after school kick-ass club that I’m super excited about. And I feel like, sometimes, you know I don’t have kids and you know that’s a really tough thing to figure into your life when you’re going from, you know, not having them to having them and a career and everything. And I think even for someone who doesn’t have them, it’s like, you’re still trying to manage a bunch of different things and figure out how to like, stay excited, and go outside and like, meet with people and hang out not you know, become a total hermit like I like to do. JL: Oh my god, going outside is so hard sometimes. KL: Exactly! SWB: But I think, this really speaks to the way that I think the idea for the podcast evolved. When we started talking about it with Jenn, what we realized is that, for a lot of us who, you know, consider ourselves ambitious and sort of really interested in our careers but also kind of non-traditional about it. Like not necessarily interested in only ever working at one single company and a lot of us, you know, work in consulting or small companies or we take on side gigs. You can sometimes end up feeling like you don’t have colleagues. And I think that that’s something I’ve heard a lot from—particularly from women the past couple of years. That they were looking for places where they could connect with other people who got their work, even if they weren’t traditional colleagues. And I really look at that as a big piece of what we’re doing here, is kind of taking the place of having that sort of peer group that you maybe used to have at an office. But if you work in lots of non-traditional settings, you don’t have that anymore. JL: And even when you do work in that, sometimes its you know, you still have a variety of interests. So as you said, I used to do a lot of side projects and that’s totally different than my full time job. So, I think, as we were all sitting on the couch and we were getting more and more excited, that’s sort of where the name of this show came to be. Right? SWB: Yeah, I think one of the things that was really funny about that, was that—so, I was sitting there as Jenn and Katel were kind of going back and forth, like, getting more and more excited and hyped about the show. And all of a sudden, they’re talking over each other and Katel—always the gracious one—is like, “no, you go,” and waits for Jenn. And Jenn goes, “that should be the name of the podcast.” And she kind of laughs and I’m like, wait, stop, no that is the name of the podcast now. So, that’s how we named the podcast and started thinking a lot more about you know, what kind of things we’d cover and where we’d go with it. So, kind of getting outside of that, just the idea of showing your work—although that’s part of it—but more thinking about, what are all the different ways or paths that people take to satisfy their ambition or satisfy their need to, you know, create stuff in the world. And how could we go about highlighting those and helping other people see the different kinds of ways their lives might look. And giving people a little more support along the way as they figure out what that looks like for them. JL: I think also, you know, we’ll talk about challenges of being ambitious. I think there’s a lot of things that all people, but especially for us as women, that we always have to balance, right? Being too abrasive versus being too nice and how we manage that in this world—to achieve some of the things that we’re trying to set out to do. SWB: I was thinking about, one of the other podcasts I really like, Call Your Girlfriend—the hosts on that show talk about shine theory. And for them, shine theory is this idea, like, I don’t shine if you don’t. So, the idea is you’re going to have you know, like, you want the smartest and most accomplished women by your side because actually everybody’s better when your friends are successful, too. And I think about that a lot when I think about this show because I’ve got some like, pretty accomplished women by my side working on it. And I think that that is an incredible way to look at how do we, you know, how do we navigate our lives, and how do we think about ambition. [10:00] Because we’re always looking toward these other people that we totally respect and that we can learn so much from, and they’re looking right back at us. And I think it creates this environment where we can be really supportive of each other and also get a little bit more comfortable kind of like, celebrating that ambitious side of ourselves and not pretending it’s not there. Which I think is often what women are expected to do. KL: Yeah, this actually tied back to, Sara, what you were saying a little bit earlier, about you know, having colleagues and we all work in kind of, I think, different setups these days. It’s not necessarily like, Sara and I don’t even go into an office most days, and we have meetings sort of from wherever. And even though you know, we’re all friends and we have—our professions and our careers are kind of intertwined because we work in the same field or area— we don’t work together physically. But we talk and speak and write about similar things and I think we have passions about the same things. And especially in terms of trying to lift other folks up and finding ways to actually do that. We all work in different setups these days and you know, a lot of us—Sara and I included don’t even necessarily go into offices everyday, but I think it’s really important to feel like you have some kind of camaraderie. Some kind of network that you’re able to rely on in your work and obviously outside of that work. For me, it’s been so critical because I literally work by myself in my home and I have—I work with a lot of team members that are just distributed. So for me to have folks that I can see regularly and talk about things that are related to the work I do is so important. I think I was really missing that from going from a big company like National Geographic to a company that was a small startup. That was a huge shock, that was a big change. You know, working with fifty people a day and then all of a sudden being by myself. So this has been incredibly important. I think being able to extend that and hopefully share that and build a community around that is super exciting. JL: Totally. SWB: Yeah, like I remember when I quit my last real job, which was in 2011, I was working at an agency. And I went from an agency to freelancing and consulting in doing content strategy and UX work. And at first, I will tell you I did not have this kind of network. I was mostly feeling really kind of alone in my work. And I would work on a project and get in with the team on that project but they weren’t really ever my team. And so over the years I’ve certainly like built up this collection of you know, like, really cool people who get what I do and who are just there for me. And that network has made all the difference. I don’t think that I would still be consulting, much less speaking and writing books and stuff like that, if I had not built that kind of community. And that’s something I want more people to experience because I think that it’s one of the only things that can kind of help keep you sane and happy. KL: I feel like the dream used to be work from home, and like work for yourself and you know, be your own bossa and sort of be the master of your own time. And it’s great, it has so much—it gives you a lot of freedom and there’s a lot of flexibility but it’s also very lonely a lot of the time and you know, I think you need to find something that actually helps you get through those lonely times. JL: Yeah. SWB: Yeah, like I want the yoga pants, but I also want the like, deep personal friendships. KL: Right! SWB: That come with seeing people really regularly. And so, you know, it’s how do we make a life for ourselves that kind of can bring us both. JL: I got news for you: athleisure. Is my office wear. SWB: Trust me, I have gone full force into the athleisure lifestyle and I am not looking back. So one thing that I do think about, though, in this whole conversation about kind of finding that community and helping to help others, you know, figure out what their path is, is that Jenn, Katel, and I—we really come from relatively similar backgrounds. You know, like we’re similar age and we’re all based in Philly, and we’re all white ladies with professional jobs. Having a lot in common is really good, but we do know that that could be a pretty limited view of what it’s like to work as a woman. In fact, it would be incredibly limited. So one thing that’s really important to us and that we want to do on this show is make sure that we’re bringing in people with a lot of different experiences and different backgrounds. And make sure that we are getting things from perspectives that the three of us would never have. [Musical interlude] JL: You know, speaking of hearing from other voices, I think it’s time we get into our main segment. But before we do, we are so excited to tell you about the sponsor who’s making this very first episode of No, You Go possible: Codepen. CodePen is a powerful tool that allows designers and developers to write code—like HTML, CSS, and JavaScript—directly in a browser and see the results as you build. Whether you’re new to front-end code or been writing it for years, it’s the perfect place to learn front-end programming languages, show off what you create, build test cases, get help on tricky problems—and find inspiration. Whenever I have a new idea and I want to get right to making it happen, you know, I don’t want to have to deal with setting up the environment or setting up hosting or build tools, I just go right to CodePen and start building. I can share that code with others on my team and see what they think about it, and then we can go from there. CodePen has so many cool things to explore—like CodePen PRO and Projects, where you can explore tons of awesome Pens. Get inspired and learn from others, and share with them at the same time. Sign up and get started by visiting codepen.io/hello. [Musical interlude] We introduce the badass lady brigade [15:30] JL: So how do we know when it’s time for something new? SWB: That’s a question we asked a bunch of women who had made big changes in 2017—job changes, life changes, that kind of thing. To get us started, let’s hear from one of our favorites. BECCA GURNEY: This is Becca Gurney, half of Design Choice, a graphic design studio in Washington, DC, where we have the aim of empowering women to lead, to get paid, and to be awesome. Our central mission and idea is that we almost make the conscious choice to pay women fairly for the work that they do, and before you can pay them you have to choose them to do the work. So for the four years leading up to this one, I had been freelancing, and I had just fallen into freelancing. I didn’t choose it, I didn’t really go out and take a risk and say hey, this is what I want to do. It was there and I did it, and I just kept doing it. But I had been feeling really unfulfilled and pretty aimless in it. I wasn’t doing great work. I was just doing work, and there was no real point to it. It was awesome that I could make my own schedule and I could go home to make jam whenever I wanted, because I was feeling jammy. But I didn’t think of myself as successful or empowered. And then the election happened, and I didn’t feel successful or empowered. And I was looking around at the leaders in our industry, which is mostly dudes, and I didn’t feel successful or empowered. The AIGA Census data came out and women in my area at my level are being paid $20,000 less a year than men. And so hey, I don’t feel successful or empowered. And the moments that sparked any sort of a feeling that felt good were the moments that I was with women, talking about being fucking unapologetic women. And how could I do that through design and Stacey Maloney was in a bunch of those conversations, and we said, “Fuck it, let’s just do it; let’s be unapologetic women asking to do work and to be paid fairly for it.” And we started Design Choice. JL: How awesome. SWB: I love so much about this. Fucking unapologetic women. I think we qualify, right? JL: I hope so. KL: I think so. Let’s get there if not [laughs]. SWB: Katel, how do you know Becca? KL: We got to be friends when I was in DC. I started working at a coworking space to try to get a little more face time with other human beings when I started this solo thing. And she was just awesome. We became friends really quickly, and we sort of went through some growing pains at this particular coworking space because of management that was not empowering and didn’t make us feel confident about working there, and we moved to a different one. We shared an office. We just really became good friends and got to know each other. Becca is one of those people who, you know that if she says something, that she’s going to do something, she’s gonna do it. She just shows up and she’s such a rock star. I hate using that word, but she is, she absolutely is. She’s creative and amazing and when I listened to this recording that she sent, I almost teared up because I was thinking, oh my gosh, I have felt so similarly—that feeling of like, you’re doing all these things that you’re supposed to be doing, you’re making the money, you’re going to the meetups, you’re doing all the things, but you don’t feel empowered and you don’t feel successful. And like, what is that? And trying to pull all of that apart and get at the root of why, and figure out what you’re going to do to change that, is huge. It’s so huge. And the fact that she came out of that and created this agency, and it isn’t just helping her feel successful and empowered, but also doing really fucking amazing work for companies that should be employing women, is just so rad. SWB: Yeah, I love this idea of her saying that this company is explicitly about hiring women and paying women fairly. And that’s really built into the fabric of it, and she’s not afraid to talk about it that way. Because I think about it in terms of how I spent my own year. [20:00] I think something that I did in 2017 is get comfortable with the idea that my work simply was political—that I couldn’t really create an artificial boundary between the things that I care about professionally, talking about a user’s experience of a piece of software or a website, and the things that I care about personally, which is basically all social justice issues. And so that really came out when I wrote my most recent book. It’s called Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech, and essentially I am really taking a direct look at this tech industry that I have been part of for a long time, and highlighting some of the ways it’s gone really wrong for people who are often the most vulnerable or the most marginalized. You know, it was hard but I think I got to a place where I was no longer afraid of saying that out loud, and saying that in front of important people who, in the past, I would have been worried wouldn’t have wanted to hire me for consulting. And now, I’m thinking, okay, I need to find a way to make this an organic and natural part of what I do, because I can’t really live with myself otherwise. KL: Yeah, I think you’re totally right, and that whole unapologetic thing—I feel like there’s so much to unpack there, and something we’re grappling with it every day in everything we do. And I know for me it’s kind of like, you tear a little bit away and you’re like, okay, I made some progress. And then you’re like, but wait, is this fitting in in the right space? So I feel like hopefully, if we do enough of these, we’re really going to get in deep in terms of how people are doing that. JL: Becca wasn’t the only one feeling frustration. Let’s hear another story from Jenn Schiffer. JENN SCHIFFER: At the end of 2016, I was feeling really stuck in a rut. I wanted to do good work, but I didn’t feel like I was in a position to do that. I knew I was going to leave, but I wasn’t sure what I was going to do, and I was afraid to make any changes. But then I was very lucky and very fortunate because Fog Creek approached me about doing community engineering for their new product, Glitch.com. And so I’ve been there ever since, and it’s been great, and I feel like I’m doing my best work, and I’m making an impact. And so I’m hoping in 2018 to keep that momentum going. JL: Oh, Jenn Schiffer. She’s is constantly always saying such smart things, and I think that’s one of the reasons that I really just enjoy everything she does. I didn’t meet Jenn in person until a couple of years ago, but I started following Jenn a while ago because she was posting a lot of awesome humor-filled development posts, which was something quite unique, and she had a really great voice. SWB: You mean she trolled dev bros on Twitter? [Laughter] JL: It was the California Style Sheets post a couple of years ago, which is one of my favorites still, and I think it was awesome and it showed a lot of things, because, yes, being written by a woman, I think a lot of people thought, it must not be humor, it must be serious. And that was—ugh—sigh-worthy. But Jenn was awesome, and I followed that, and was lucky enough to have her on the podcast I used to run, with Val Head, Ladies In Tech, where we’d talk about public speaking and Jenn was a guest on our show. We were lucky to have her. She’s done a lot of awesome things. One of the things I love about Jenn is if there’s a gap or something that she wants, she makes it happen. She was living in North Jersey I believe, and working for the NBA at the time, and there was not a meetup and I think she went into the city for them. And so she decided to start her own North Jersey meetup. And so instead of saying, there’s nothing here around me, she started her own. And I think that’s such an important thing that we can do in this industry. And you can see it now, that she is starting something new again. And I think one of the things that she’s always done is helping people learn. A talk she gave recently she had this great quote: “We don’t learn alone.” And I think that’s true in this industry, but also in many industries where we are just better together and we learn more when we’re around each other. KL: You really feel like she’s bringing you along in the learning, when she’s speaking about—when she’s giving a talk or doing a demo or whatever. SWB: I think that’s one of the cool things about this new role that she has. She went from a role where she was doing a lot of programming to a role where she’s the community engineer. That means that she’s doing a lot more of that educational piece, and helping people make use of this tool Glitch, which is from Fog Creek. And what’s really great about it is that it’s a way to not just do the heads down work, but to be doing the showing your work and sharing of things, and making these things more accessible for people. And particularly making these kinds of tools in tech feel accessible to all kinds of folks, right? I think that’s a big piece of how Glitch has positioned itself on purpose, and that’s in no small part to people like Jenn, who are making it feel like a tool that anyone can pick up and use—and not a tool that only super elite programmers from one very particular background can pick up and use. [25:00] And so I love that about her, and I hope that continues to be a really good move for her, because that was an exciting “something new” that happened last year. Something Jenn talked about though, which I think is something that all of us can relate to, is that feeling of frustration, burnout, being bored, or just not feeling like you have space to do your best work. That’s something I’ve certainly felt. I’ve felt it at different points over my career, but certainly when I last quit my job, one of the big reasons is that I was working an ungodly number of hours. I was the last one in the office every night. I literally set the alarm leaving the office every day for like a year straight. And I simultaneously felt like I couldn’t get my head above water. I was trying to do so much, and it didn’t feel like I could go anywhere. One of the ways that I got out of that was quitting my job, but it wasn’t just quitting the job. It was also getting a new outlook to my work. One of the reasons that I quit my job was so that I could write my first book, which was like my first real effort to give my community some of my expertise and knowledge. And that was a really helpful reframe for me to get me out of that rut. And so I’m curious, have you guys had experiences where you feel like you’ve gotten burnt out or frustrated, and how did you move past them? JL: When I left my last full-time job to start consulting, I at the time was doing a lot of public speaking. I was away more than I was home, and I really loved it. That’s really what gave me the courage to quit my full-time job and start something new. There was something I really loved, I knew what I loved, and it was less being frustrated with anything I was currently doing, and more me seeing something that I really loved doing, and figuring out how I could make that happen. I really loved my job at the time, I was a development director at Happy Cog. But I had been doing it for six years. And it was definitely something I loved, but again, six years is a long time, especially in the tech field. And there was this new thing that I loved a lot. Being able to travel and meet people and teach was something that was super important to me, and for me to be able to full commit to that, it almost forced me—or gave me that boost that I needed—to quit my job at the time and go out consulting and have this freedom to do this thing. So, for me the driver was something I really loved and wanting to do, versus being burnt out or frustrated at a current job. SWB: Totally. I loved what you said about, it wasn’t that there was something wrong with what you were doing. Sometimes I think we get stuck in a rut because we’re like, well, I like the stuff that I’m currently doing. But for me at least, part of being happy does really come down to growth or evolution in what I’m doing. So it’s not a matter of me hating anything that came before necessarily, but I want to bring something new into the fold. New people and new experiences. I want something else to kind of keep it interesting. I want to keep it interesting, and if I’m feeling too steady all the time, then I think I’m bored. So I love this idea that it’s like, okay, is there something out there that you’re really excited about, or that you want to be good at that you’re not yet good at that can really drive us to change things up. KL: I’m gonna be real honest here and say that I’m currently burnt out, and I’ve been struggling with that I think for like the last year. SWB: Weird, how could 2017 burn someone out. How is that possible? [Laughter] KL: Yeah, exactly, It’s like, can you just be burnt out just from being burnt out? And I think I’ve worked through a lot of it, not that it’s something—I think at one point I thought, okay, like, this is something else I need to check off my list, getting through burnout. Which is not how it happens and not how you heal from it. It shocked me into realizing that I needed to make some changes in how I approached my scheduling and, you know, my work. But I think sort of related to what you’re talking about, not necessarily saying I need a different job or I need to change career paths. It’s like, before ABA, I would go to work, you do your job. That’s the thing, it’s this packaged thing. And now it’s not like that. A Book Apart is not like that. Granted I’ve been doing it for years, but it just—you start to think, okay, there’s nothing outside of it. Even though there’s lots of stuff outside of it, and I think I just needed to look for it. This is part of it. I think I’m starting to feel a lot less burnt out. I think I also got really confused—or not confused, I got worried, because I started to think that burnout is just fatigue, and it’s not necessarily just fatigue. It could just be you need a fresh take or a new project or whatever. [30:00] SWB: Yeah, and I think it definitely says a lot. The key to fixing burnout is not always necessarily career change, but sometimes it’s just like, perspective shift and remembering all the other things that you love. You know, people talk about work-life balance, and I always really struggle with that conversation, because work is really important to me, and it’s so intertwined with so many pieces of my life. So I don’t look at it as, work is over here and life is over there. But at the same time, I’ve lived the life where work was consuming me: “Oh, I’m writing this email at 11:30pm.” You know, when you stop seeing any distinction between those different parts of yourself, I think it can be really easy to get so sucked into work, that when things aren’t going well at work, it means that things are not going well for you. So it’s like, if work goes through a rough patch, your whole life sucks, because there’s nothing else there. KL: Right, it’s such a big part of what you do and who you are. And it’s something I never really paused to think about, moving from my twenties to thirties to forties, is that, like, that’s an ongoing thing. It’s an evolution. You don’t just figure it out and then it’s done. SWB: The kind of work that I do evolves all the time, so of course the relationship I have to my work has to evolve all the time to.. That’s only natural. KL: Right. SWB: I think it’s hard sometimes to remember that, because you think, “Oh, well, this used to work for me.” Well guess what, this doesn’t work for me anymore. I am in my mid-thirties now, and my needs are a little bit different. And there are things that I’m not willing to put up with anymore—thank god. JL: Yes. [Laughter] KL: Right. And you can be unapologetic about it. JL: Yeah, and along with being unapologetic, sometimes you really need to trust your gut. Let’s hear from Mina Markham about trusting her gut. MINA MARKHAM: To channel Olivia Pope, it all comes down to a gut feeling with me. When I’m presented with some new opportunity, I kind of do a gut check and see, is this something that I will regret not doing. And if the answer is yes, then I know what I have to do. I have to go ahead and make that change. That’s probably the only thing that can explain how I’ve had so much change in my life the past few years. I’ve had three jobs in three years, all of which required me to pack up my life and move to a new city and basically start over. Each time came with their own instances of doubt or of terror or sometimes just full-on panic, but none of which I have any regrets about doing. So I have learned to trust my gut, trust my instincts to know when it’s time for me to go ahead and make that leap. JL: Oh, Olivia Pope. Inspires me too, but I’ll get to that later. It just inspires me so much when people have the ability to follow their gut, especially when it involves moving. Sara, you’ve moved a ton. SWB: Yeah, I’ve moved a lot of times, and I’ve moved across the country, but I still don’t think I’ve moved as much as Mina Markham has. KL: Yeah, if you’re not familiar with her, Mina was at IBM in Austin at the beginning of those three years she talked about. Then she moved to Brooklyn to work on the Hillary campaign. Now she’s a senior front-end engineer at Slack. So that’s a lot of choices, and a lot of change. And I think trusting your gut becomes really vital in all that. I also think it’s how you get to a place where you actually know what it’s going to look like to have regrets or to not have regrets, and you become okay with it. You kind of can envision it a little bit more. It becomes a cycle that starts to repeat itself, which, that’s how you gain more and more trust in your gut. SWB: What she said reminded me of this column I read a couple of years ago. It’s an advice column called Dear Sugar that Cheryl Strayed used to run. She wrote a response to somebody who asked, like, I’m thinking about having kids, I’m in my late thirties or forty-ish or something like that, and I don’t know if I should, but I think I might regret it. And this person felt like having kids because they thought they might regret not having kids was a bad idea. Now, I don’t have kids. I’m not planning to have kids. But this column really stuck with me, because the way she responded to it, she was like, you know, thinking about your future self and what you might regret is one of the only ways that you can kind of make sense of choices. And she was like, this is actually a really healthy way to look at, like, is this something that I’m going to wish I had done later on? Once you do make a decision, then you have to think of it as other lives that you chose not to lead. I think she called it “the ghost ship that did not carry me.” So it’s like this other ship that you could have been on, but you didn’t take. [35:00] And that would have been this other thing, and you can wave at it from the shore, but it’s not yours. So I think about that a lot when it comes to choices, whether it’s those big life choices, or the smaller day-to-day work choices: what are the ships that I’m choosing to be on? And as long as I’m thinking about where my gut is, and I’m thinking about what is going to be a positive thing for future me, I usually feel pretty good about it. JL: I think this is another habit thing, where the more you get used to making these decisions and being okay with them, the stronger you probably feel being like, this is okay and I’m going to go for this. SWB: Yeah, totally. I think that it’s hard at first to know what does trusting your gut even mean, right? And so I think about, how do I know that I’m trusting my gut? You know, if I start doing something where it’s like, “Ugh, I should really take this project on,” or, “I should really speak at this conference,” and then every time I go to, like, write the email that would be the saying yes email, I get knotted up and I don’t do it, I’ve started to slow down and say, wait a second, why am I sort of hemming and hawing about saying yes to that email? And usually it’s because I have some kind of reservation or misgiving. Versus there are times when people ask me to do something or I am presented with opportunities, and my heart is immediately in it. Now, sometimes I have to say no to those things too, because they don’t fit for one reason or another, but knowing that immediate response of opening yourself up to whatever’s in front of you, versus pushing it away, that means something. And it’s worth taking the time to figure out what your body’s telling you, where that’s coming from. And I think that’s the very beginning of trusting your gut. JL: And sometimes it’s not just about making a decision by yourself. Sometimes you’re lucky enough to find someone else to help you decide what’s next in your life. SWB: Let’s hear from Lara Hogan. Lara is an engineering leader who some of you may have heard of, because it seems like she’s everywhere these days. She was a VP at Kickstarter, and before that she was a senior manager at Etsy, but she’s up to something new, too. Let’s hear about it. LARA HOGAN: How did I know it was time to start something new? In part, it was meeting Deepa, my business partner. She’s just incredible, and with her by my side, I feel like I can do anything. And I also knew that this was the time once I realized, working full-time at a company, I have to do a lot of things all of the time [laughs] that may of course just not be what I want to specialize in. But it occurred to me that as a consultant, I could do the things that I really, really love all of the time, and bring that help and support to a lot of different companies. And that’s just really intriguing to me. SWB: Okay, first of all, I want a Deepa. [Laughter] KL: Yes. SWB: So, Deepa Subramaniam is Lara’s business partner, and they founded this company called Wherewithall, that is doing consulting work on product teams and engineering teams. But most importantly, me and Katel actually had dinner with them a couple of weeks back. And watching them interact with each other and talk about their work, and the way their faces just light up. It’s so great to seem them coming together and creating this thing that they clearly are really passionate about on the work side, but also just as partners. They really make sense and they get one another. I thought that was so great to see. I’ve mostly worked in different kinds of consulting arrangements. Sometimes, me and somebody else will partner up on a project or teach a workshop together, but I’ve never had that kind of long-term, we-are-business-partners thing set up. And I think it goes back to what we said earlier, around how we sometimes have to make our own colleagues. It’s like they’ve literally created a business that allows them to have that kind of collegial relationship. And I think that that’s really powerful and something that’s kind of scary for a lot of us to do—to, you know, make such a firm commitment. But it’s great when it works, right? KL: Yeah, it’s like you wish, you know, and sort of dream about finding your soul mates in your life partner and your best friends. And I feel like it’s becoming a lot more, you know, that this happens with work now, and it’s just really cool. Like, you can work on projects where you’re like, these are the kind of people I want to work with all the time. And then you know what that looks like. JL: Yeah, and I think it’s amazing. But there’s also like, half- and quarter-way points, too, right? So, I think, as you mentioned before, we don’t necessarily traditionally work on the same types of things, but I love both of you, so having chances to work with you is great. And I just remember, like Sara and I, when we were both doing a lot of public speaking, we would go out to happy hour or we would go out to dinner and we would just talk about public speaking things. And even though Sara and I would be talking about completely different things, the business of public speaking was something that we could both talk to and learn from each other. And talk about how we were doing things, how we were organizing, how we were charging. How we were going to do logistics of things—and having someone I could talk to about that was, like, totally priceless for me. [40:00] SWB: Yes! You know, I think that there’s a lot of pressure in culture at large and definitely within the tech industry, to kind of not talk about some of this stuff. For example, don’t talk about how much you charge for things and how much you make off of things. And I know that that can be a touchy and sensitive discussion but I really think that only benefits the people who have the most power. And that’s so problematic. That tends to disproportionately affect women and it tends to disproportionately affect people of color, and particularly disproportionately affects people who are women of color. And so I’m really a big proponent of having as many open and honest conversations about topics like compensation as possible. Because I really think that the fact that we haven’t had enough of those is part of the reason that we hear things like Becca’s statement earlier on, where she talked about the AIGA survey. Which is a designer’s survey showing that women at her level were making $20,000 less than men. It’s certainly not the only reason, but part of the reason that continues to go on unchecked, is because we’re encouraged not to talk about it. So I’m gonna fuckin’ talk about it. JL: Yeah, I wrote a post in, I don’t know, 2015? 2014?—“A Formula for Charging Speaker Fees”—and it’s about… SWB: Oh yeah! KL: It was great! JL: And it’s still, I mean, it’s probably the most visited blog post on the Nerdery. And I mean, that site hasn’t been updated in over a year, but we still get traffic from that post especially. People looking for how to charge, how do I put numbers around something, and so I was thrilled that people are still finding value in that. Because, for me, it was really valuable to talk about it. SWB: So that’s the kind of thing, I think, if you feel sort of isolated—and it’s not just about money, really—but if you feel isolated in your field, or if you feel like you don’t know who you can trust, then you can never really get to a place where you have the confidence to then have that conversation with the people the really matter. KL: Or if you’re just starting out. SWB: Totally. KL: That’s a whole group of people who—like, I wouldn’t even know where to start if I was doing it for the first time and I just had no idea. If I had no idea what to base it off of. So if I found a resource that was helpful like that, it would be so valuable. SWB: Yeah and I think, you know, especially since things like money conversations—it’s like if you try to have one and you’re not that confident about it and you don’t really have any context. If you get pushback, it’s really easy to believe that you’re getting pushback because you were asking for too much. And you don’t have a frame of reference. So, anyway, I think building those relationships to give you more context and get more insight and feedback and, just like you have someone to bounce everything off of—it’s so valuable. I’m really happy to hear people like Deepa and Lara are teaming up because I think that the more of these kinds of powerful relationships between people that exist out there, the stronger any industry is going to be. JL: Completely, yeah. I think that finding advocates in your peers and finding that partnership is so important and valuable. SWB: A lot of the folks we talked to—they were kind of moving from working at a company to starting their own thing. Or otherwise kind of shifting gears in that more consultative way. Jenn, you went from consulting to going back in-house and then you had a baby, so you had kind of different sort of year with a lot of new stuff. But I’m curious: what did that look like for you and what made that work for you at this moment in your life? JL: You bring up a good point, Sara. I think a lot of times, we often say like, “oh i’m starting something new,” and it’s always about quitting your job. And I did that, as I mentioned before. SWB: Quitting your job can be great, let’s not lie about that. But it’s not always great. And it’s not always what you want. JL: And it was what I wanted for a really long time. And I think one of the hardest things for me, because of the vision that comes along with that—the freedom, the working from home, the yoga pants, the ability to do anything you want, essentially, is awesome. And then for me to recognize, you know, what was also awesome, was going back to a full time job. I started consulting for Anthropologie and I worked onsite a couple days a week and I was really enjoying it. I enjoyed the work I was doing, I enjoyed being in-house again, and I really enjoyed working on product as opposed—it was a different change from agency life. And I thought that that was such a nice change—and there was part of me that was really hesitant to go back full time. And, they’d offered the full time work, I still wasn’t sure, and I think part of it was just because I thought what I was supposed to do, was stay consulting. You know, I’d already quit my job—why would I ever go back!? [45:00] And then, I realized for me, that the full time job gave me a lot of stability, in that, in order to try new things such as: BABY. [Laughter] JL: For me, I always like to have at least one or two maybe, super stable things in my life when I try something new. When I first quit my job, I had a very stable relationship—now with my husband, also stable friendships, a lot of stable colleagues, that were really allowing me to try something new. Now I had again, this stability, that was like, ok, I feel pretty great—maybe I’ll go and try this new-fangled baby thing that I hear people talk about. And it was really great to have the support of the people that I work with, also, at the time, figuring out things like maternity leave, figuring out how to make the balance before I went on maternity leave. And so, going back for me, was like a little bit of a hard move but something that I knew was right for me at the time. And something that I really wanted to see through. Will I be full-time forever, I’m not sure! But for right now, I’m enjoying a lot about it. SWB: Yeah, I think that when people start a business or move to doing consulting or something like that, that’s often this sense of like, if they ever change course from that, I think it gets perceived—or there’s a fear that it’ll be perceived—as failure in some way. Or like taking a step backwards. And of course, life’s not really like that, right? There are times when something makes a lot of sense and times when it doesn’t. And I think that’s part of the thing I’m really interested in exploring more in this show. How do we figure out the next steps that are right for us, that allow us to continue to grow. And to try not to buy into some of those bullshit stories about what it means to be successful. For example, none of us have a goal of being tech company founders who go out and get a bunch of venture capital so that we can be the next unicorn company worth a billion dollars. I mean, I guess having a billion dollars sounds—no, I’m sorry, having a billion dollars actually sounds awful. It sounds truly terrible. Because I look at the people who are making that their kind of dream they’re chasing—and I think, would I be happier? I don’t think so. Would I be creating a better world? Probably not. What is really the draw of that except for the idea that it’s what a picture of what success looks like. And I think what I’m hoping we can do here is really talk about of different types of success. JL: Yeah, it’s like, when is the right time for you to do these options that we have. And you know, we’re so lucky that we have options, especially in the tech field where you have a lot of abilities to work agency, to work product, to go consulting. Lots of different options. So I think it’s as you said, not a one size fits all and not always a one size fits all for this time frame forever. SWB: So I know that having a baby was a big new thing, but I also know something that you told me when you were still kind of getting embedded in that job was that it was—and I think you mentioned it a little. You said it was a chance to work on product, which you hadn’t done before. And it you were telling me a lot about some of the challenges of working at scale at this big e-commerce company and all this stuff that was a little bit new. And I’m curious, do you feel like—not only did you create this stability for your but have you also been growing professionally in this new job? JL: Yeah, sure. I think one of the things that was really neat, as you mentioned—working not only at CSS architecture at scale, but also taking on management responsibilities. So consulting, I managed myself, and sometimes some other members of teams. But generally now I’m in a position where I have direct reports. I’m working more in the engineering team and helping people with their career paths again, is really interesting to me and definitely a new challenge. Managing is hard. SWB: People! You know? KL: People are wonderful, and hard, and wonderful, and hard. JL: Exactly. So it’s rewarding in a whole new way and challenging in a whole new way. I haven’t managed since before I was consulting, so it was fun to take that on again. But also just something completely new—it’s nice to see that at this point in my career, these different kind of challenges. But that said, focusing a lot on both the management and the architecture also sort of left this gap where I wasn’t doing as many of the things I was doing before with side projects. So trying to figure out—it’s again, facing this sort of similar thing as I had before, where I’m not burnt out on what I’m doing—there’s just something I love and I miss doing that also. So how do I also get this thing that I love in my life somehow. But not at the same scale as before. Because like I mentioned, it’s that balance. And it all comes down to scale again. Where, I don’t want to quit and got consulting and go travel all over the place again all of the time because I want to be home with some level of stability. But I want new projects also, so talking to both of you was really neat because then the idea of starting something new with this podcast came up. And this, for me, is so exciting, because it acts as an outlet to do a lot of things I loved doing in side projects while still maintaining a lot of this new stability that I found in my life. Fuck Yeah of the Week [50:15] SWB: You know when your friend gets an awesome new job, or publishes an amazing article, or finally pays off their student loans, and you’re so excited that you keep texting them in just like all caps and the fire emoji over and over again? Well, that’s the next segment here, it’s called the Fuck Yeah of the Week—and it’s where we share the people and the things that we think you all should be celebrating. Think of it as the podcast form of the 100 emoji. So Jenn, who is our very first Fuck Yeah of the Week? JL: Well, Sara, I’m gonna go ahead and say, it’s US! Fuck Yeah, Us! KL: Fuck Yeah, YES! JL: You know, I think sometimes you gotta take those moments and celebrate yourself, and I think we should be celebrating ourselves for getting this thing up and running! Here we are, we’ve talked about this idea, and now we are actually in the room recording it, ladies—we’re doing it! SWB: Yeah! JL: It’s awesome. SWB: You know, earlier we heard from Lara Hogan about her, you know, new business and all of that. But this reminds me so much of something that she started writing about years ago. She has a whole site about this—it’s Lara Hogan’s donut site, I don’t know what it’s called. But basically, what she does, is she celebrates every career achievement with a donut. And she started doing it because she realized that whenever something cool was happening, like she was getting a promotion, or she was accepted to give a talk somewhere, she would go, “ok, great,” and then move on to the next thing. And she wasn’t giving herself permission to celebrate that. So she started saying, “ok, every time something major happens, I’m gettin’ myself a donut.” And she takes a picture of it and she puts it on this website. And I think that that’s wonderful, because every time she has a new donut thing to celebrate, I’m like, “hell yeah, get that donut!” JL: Yeah! SWB: And I love that we’re able to do that for ourselves, too, because, yeah, I think we’re often taught to keep looking forward or don’t let yourself have too much of the limelight. And, I hope that anybody who’s listening to this can kind of give themselves a fuck yeah, too, for the things that they’re accomplishing. KL: Definitely, it’s so exciting to see how far Lara’s Tao of Donuts, essentially, has spread. Because you see other people taking photos, you know, of their donuts that they’ve gotten after speaking for the first time, or you know, doing a big demo. And that’s so cool, because you know it ties back to this thing that she, talked about, and that’s super cool. I hope that we see lots more photos of donuts, or your celebration. JL: Our second fuck yeah are these Olivia Pope wine glasses that we are drinking out of today. The Olivia Pope wine glass has always been, for me, my special donut moment. You know, on that show Scandal, when she drinks, and it just was like, “wow, where do I get a glass to just drown my sorrows or celebrate my joys.” Like, that is the glass that holds everything. They sell them at Crate & Barrel. Crate & Barrel is not one of our sponsors, but they could be. KL: They could be. [Laughter] SWB: Are you listening, Crate & Barrel? JL: But! I love these glasses because I take them out when I need to like, either, like, pause and be like, this is life right now, and this is just my moment to just like, take it all in. Be it good, be it bad. But like, here’s just a moment to pause and be like, “Fuck yeah, I got these glasses, and in this case, I got these friends, and I’ve got this wine, and I’ve got this podcast, so, it’s pretty good.” SWB: You know, if you haven’t seen an Olivia Pope wine glass, first off, it’s going to be in the show notes, but if you Google “Olivia Pope wine glass,” you know exactly—immediately—what we’re talking about. KL: It’ll be on our Instagram. SWB: But what’s really key about the Olivia Pope wine glass, is that it’s got a big glass, but it’s also on this long, really slender stem. It’s like a big-deal wine glass. It’s not just like, “Oh I’m having a quick glass of wine.” It’s very much like, “I am having wine now, period.” And, I like that because it does—it kind of creates that space, right? Like, you were saying, Jenn, it’s not just like that you’re going to pour yourself a quick glass. It’s that you’re pausing and taking a moment and you’re allowing yourself to have that bit of joy. And I think that that’s really important, even though, normally I don’t trust myself to use the Olivia Pope wine glass on the regular, but I want them to exist in the world. JL: That’s why I have six of them. [Laughter] KL: They’re great, because they have presence, yet they’re elegant. SWB: So, just like us? JL: Mhmm. SWB: That’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. No, You Go is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia. Our theme music is by Philly’s own The Diaphone, from a song called Maths. In this episode, you heard Becca Gurney, Jenn Schiffer, Mina Markham and Lara Hogan. We’ll be back next week with Episode 2. [55:00] KL: Until then, we leave you with this advice from Sam Kapila, a designer and educator who’s always up to something new: SAM KAPILA: I know it’s time to start something new when I’m a little bit scared….the good sort of scared that inspires me to want to explore something new in a project, or in a job, or scared in a way that you might surprise yourself. It’s also important to start something new when you can’t stop thinking about a certain idea, and it keeps you up at night. It’s in your 3am journal on your bedside, and it’s something that you just can’t wait to start doing and be really proud of. And I think, any time you can be proud of something you are doing, that’s definitely time to start something new.

Sara Wachter-Boettcher is a content strategy and user experience expert who has worked on the web since she graduated from the SOJC (Magazine, 2005). As the principal of Rare Union, she’s led projects and facilitated workshops for Fortune 100 corporations, education and research institutions, and startups. Her new book, Technically Wrong: Sexist Apps, Biased Algorithms, and Other Threats of Toxic Tech, looks at the way technologists often embed a narrow worldview into the products they build, providing a revealing look at how tech industry bias and blind spots get baked into digital products—and harm us all. Watch our interview with Sara in the studio: https://youtu.be/lalv8Kz6R08 Watch Sara's talk: https://youtu.be/n2eSMimK83I Want to listen to this interview a different way? Find us wherever you get your podcasts: iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/demy%E2%80%A6ia/id1369395906 Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/university-of-oregon-school-of-journalism-and-communication/demystifying-media-podcast?refid=stpr Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2Och6Oxpkhyo1nC7D6psHI Find more Demystifying Media talks on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiELNjgZJJI&list=PLoqXTlv_f5zEJifP55GP1ghtQjY3tzoI0 Watch our Q&As with media experts on fake news, data journalism, privacy in the age of Google, indigenous media, technology trends, Facebook algorithms, and so much more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTiuV9h-MKA&list=PLoqXTlv_f5zGu5TJeuL1SMBVCXlM4ViyL Read the transcript for this podcast: https://www.scribd.com/document/463718611/Demystifying-Media-6-Sexist-Apps-Biased-Algorithms-and-Toxic-Tech-with-Sara-Wachter-Boettcher

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