Podcast appearances and mentions of steve folland

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Anonymous. They say:“Hi Frankie and Steve,I love the freedom, flexibility, variety and potential of freelancing, but the places I used to get work don't need me anymore, and I'm struggling to find a new service/niche that works. So I'm wondering whether a job might be a better option for a while.How do you know when it's time to stop freelancing and look for a job? What would you take into consideration?”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts on Instagram and Linked. Or join in the conversation in the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

Paul Marden heads to the AVEA conference in front of a LIVE audience to find out why gift shops are such an important part of the attraction mix. Joining him is Jennifer Kennedy, Retail Consultant, JK Consulting and Michael Dolan, MD of Shamrock Gift Company. They discuss why your gift shop is an integral part of your brand and why it needs to be just as good as the experience you have on offer. This coinsides with the launch of our brand new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide To Going Beyond The Gift Shop', where you can find out exactly how to improve your online offering to take your ecommerce to the next level. Download your FREE copy here:  https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbookBut that's not all. Paul walks the conference floor and speaks to:Susanne Reid, CEO of Christchurch Cathedral Dublin, on how they are celebrating their millennium anniversary - 1000 years!Charles Coyle, Managing Director, Emerald Park, on how they are bringing AI integrations to enhance their booking processesRay Dempsey, General Manager of The Old Jamerson Distillery on how they offering more accessible touring optionsIt's a mega episode and one you'll not want to miss. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  Jennifer Kennedy — Founder, JK Consultinghttps://jkconsultingnyc.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-kennedy-aba75712/Michael Dolan — Managing Director, Shamrock Gift Companyhttps://www.shamrockgiftcompany.com/Catherine Toolan — Managing Director, Guinness Storehouse & Global Head of Brand Homes, Diageohttp://diageo.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/catherinetoolan/Máirín Walsh — Operations Manager, Waterford Museumhttps://www.waterfordtreasures.com/Dean Kelly — Photography & Visitor Experience Specialist https://www.wearephotoexperience.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/dean-kelly-1259a316/Charles Coyle — Managing Director, Emerald Parkhttps://www.emeraldpark.ieSusanne Reid — CEO, Christ Church Cathedral Dublinhttp://www.christchurchcathedral.iehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/susannereid/Ray Dempsey — General Manager, Jameson Distilleryhttps://www.jamesonwhiskey.com/en-ie/visit-our-distilleries/jameson-bow-street-distillery-tour/https://www.linkedin.com/in/ray-dempsey-37a8665a/ Transcription: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast that tells the stories behind the world's best attractions and the amazing people that work in them. In today's episode, I'm at the AVEA 2025 conference in Waterford, Ireland, and we're talking about gift shop best practices. With Jennifer Kennedy from JK Consulting, a tourism and retail consultancy. And Jennifer led retail at Guinness Storehouse for more years than she would care to mention, I think. And we're also here with Michael Dolan, MD of Shamrock Gift Company, who has brought along the most amazing array of gift shop merchandise, which I'm sure we'll get into talking a little something about later on. And I've also got an amazing live audience. Say hello, everybody.Everyone: Hello.Paul Marden: There we go. So we always start with icebreaker that I don't prepare the two of you. Now this is probably a very unfair question for the pair of you, actually. What's the quirkiest souvenir you've ever bought? I can think of those little, the ones that you get in Spain are the little pooping santas.Jennifer  Kennedy: I have a thing for Christmas decorations when I go on travel, so for me, there always tends to be something around having a little decoration on my tree every year. That if I've had one or two holidays or I've been away, that has some little thing that comes back that ends up on the tree of Christmas. I have a lovely little lemon from Amalfi that's a Christmas decoration, and so you know, so a little kind of quirky things like that.Paul Marden: Michael, what about you? Michael  Dolan: One of our designers who will remain nameless? She has a thing about poo. So everyone brings her back to some poo relation. Paul Marden: Sadly, there's quite a lot of that around at the moment, isn't there? That's a bit disappointing. First question then, what's the point of a gift shop? If I put that in a more eloquent way, why are gift shops such an important part of the attraction mix?Jennifer  Kennedy: Okay, it was from my point of view, the gift shop in an attraction or a destination is the ultimate touch point that the brand has to leave a lasting memory when visitors go away. So for me, they're intrinsically important in the complete 360 of how your brand shows up— as a destination or an attraction. And without a really good gift shop and really good product to take away from it, you're letting your brand down. And it's an integral piece that people can share. From a marketing point of view, every piece of your own product that's been developed, that's taken away to any part of the world can sit in someone's kitchen. It can be in multiple forms. It can be a fridge magnet. It could be a tea towel. It could be anything. But it's a connection to your brand and the home that they visited when they chose to be wherever they're visiting. So for me, I'm very passionate about the fact that your gift shop should be as good as everything else your experience has to offer. So that's my view on it. Michael  Dolan: Sometimes it's neglected when people create a new visitor attraction. They don't put enough time into the retail element. I think that's changing, and a very good example of that would be Game of Thrones in Banbridge. We worked with them for two years developing the range, but also the shop. So the shop reflects the... I actually think the shop is the best part of the whole experience. But the shop reflects the actual whole experience.  Jennifer  Kennedy: The teaming.Michael  Dolan: The teaming. So you have banners throughout the shop, the music, the lighting, it looks like a dungeon. All the display stands have swords in them, reflecting the theme of the entrance.Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah, it's a good example of how a brand like that has incorporated the full essence and theme of why they exist into their physical retail space.Paul Marden: They definitely loosened a few pounds out of my pocket. Michael  Dolan: Another good example is Titanic Belfast. So they spent 80 million on that visitor attraction, which was opened in 2012, but they forgot about the shop. So the architect who designed the building designed the shop that looked like something out of the Tate Gallery. Yeah, and we went and said, 'This shop is not functional; it won't work for our type of product.' They said, 'We don't have anything in the budget to redevelop the shop.' So we paid a Dublin architect to redesign the shop. So the shop you have today, that design was paid for by Shamrock Gift Company. And if you've been in the shop, it's all brass, wood, ropes. So it's an integral part of the overall experience. But unfortunately... you can miss the shop on the way out.Paul Marden: Yeah, it is very easy to walk out the building and not engage in the shop itself. It's a bit like a dessert for a meal, isn't it? The meal's not complete if you've not had a dessert. And I think the gift shop experience is a little bit like that. The trip to the experience isn't finished.  If you haven't exited through the gate. Michael  Dolan: But it's the lasting memories that people bring back to the office in New York, put the mug on the table to remind people of when they're in Belfast or Dublin to go to. You know, storehouse or Titanic. So those last impressions are indelibly, you know, set.Paul Marden: So we've already said the positioning of the shop then is super important, how it feels, but product is super important, isn't it? What product you fill into the shop is a make or break experience? How do you go about curating the right product? Michael  Dolan: Most important is authenticity. You know, it has to be relevant to the visitor attraction. So it's not a question of just banging out a few key rings and magnets. So I brought you along some samples there. So we're doing two new ranges, one for Titanic and one for the Royal Yacht Britannia, and they're totally different. But reflect the personality of each attraction.Paul Marden: Absolutely.Michael  Dolan: I mean, a good example, we worked together or collaborated together on many, many projects in Guinness. But we also worked in St. Patrick's Cathedral.Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah.Michael  Dolan: You were the consultant.Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah, yeah. So I suppose, again, from the product point of view. Yeah, if you can root product in why the experience exists. So in that example, a cathedral is a great example of how you can create really great product by utilising. Well, the main reason people are there is because this amazing building exists and the historic elements of it. So I suppose to make it real, some examples of products that connected with the audience in that environment are things like a little stone coaster. But the stone coaster is a replica of the floor you're standing on. So I suppose the other balance in attractions is realistic price points and realistic products. So there's no point in creating a range of products that's outside the price point of what your visitors are prepared to pay. So it's that fine balance of creating product that connects with them, which is, I'm using the cathedral as an example because you've got architraves, you've got stained glass windows, you've got stunning tiles. So all the elements of the fabric of that building. Can be utilised to create really beautiful products, but castles, you know, cathedrals, all of those sorts of spaces.Jennifer  Kennedy: When we start talking about product, always we go to, 'why are we here?' And also the storytelling elements. There's some beautiful stories that can, I can give you another really great example of a product that was created for another cathedral, which was... So in cathedral spaces, there's all these stunning doors that run the whole way through, like they're spectacular; they're like pieces of art in their own right. And every one of them has a very unique ornate key that unlocks each door. So one of the products that did one of the cathedrals was we wanted to create a ring of brass keys with replicas of all the keys in the cathedral. But as we were progressing, we forgot at the start— it was like we forgot to tell them to scale them down. They weren't the same size as all the keys in the cathedral. So it was a very intrinsically specific gift to this particular cathedral. And it's been used ever since as kind of the special gift they give to people who come to visit from all over the world. They get quite emotional about this particular gift because it's like this is the actual replica of all the keys to all the doors in the cathedral.Jennifer  Kennedy: So it's a product that's completely born. It can never be replicated anywhere else. And it's completely unique to that particular space. And I think that's the power of, for me, that's what authenticity feels and looks like in these environments. It has to be connected to the fabric of why you exist.Paul Marden: Yeah, so I was at Big Pit in Wales six months ago, I think it was. Museums Wales are redeveloping all of their gift shops and they are going through exactly that process that you're talking about, but bringing it back to the place itself because all, I think, it's six of their museums, the gift shops had much the same set of product. They described it as, you know, you were just walking into a generic Welsh gift shop with the dressed lady.Jennifer  Kennedy: And it's hard— like it really takes an awful lot of work— like it doesn't just happen, like you really have to put a lot of thought and planning into what our product should and could look like. And then, when you've aligned on with the team of people managing and running these businesses, that this is the direction you want to take, then it's the operational element of it. It's about sourcing, MOQs, and price, and all of that stuff that comes into it. Minimum order quantities.Michael  Dolan: That's where we come in. So, you know, we met Jennifer in St. Patrick's and we met Liz then, we met the Dean. So we really sat around and talked about what were the most important elements in the cathedral that we wanted to celebrate in product.Michael  Dolan: And St. Patrick obviously was the obvious number one element. Then they have a harp stained glass window. And then they have a shamrock version of that as well. So they were the three elements that we hit on. You know, it took a year to put those three ranges together. So we would have started out with our concept drawings, which we presented to the team in St. Patrick's. They would have approved them. Then we would have talked to them about the size of the range and what products we were looking at. So then we would have done the artwork for those separate ranges, brought them back in to get them approved, go to sampling, bring the samples back in, then sit down and talk about pricing, minimum order quantities, delivery times.Michael  Dolan: So the sample, you know, so that all goes out to order and then it arrives in about four or five months later into our warehouse. So we carry all the risk. We design everything, we source it, make sure that it's safely made, all the tests are confirmed that the products are good. In conformity with all EU legislation. It'll be in our warehouse and then it's called off the weekly basis. So we carry, we do everything.  So one stop shop. Paul Marden: So the traction isn't even sitting on stock that they've invested in. We know what we're doing and we're quite happy to carry the risk. So one of the things we were talking about just before we started the episode was the challenges of sourcing locally. It's really important, isn't it? But it can be challenging to do that.Jennifer  Kennedy: It can. And, you know, but I would say in recent years, there's a lot more creators and makers have come to the fore after COVID. So in kind of more... Specifically, kind of artisan kind of product types. So things like candles are a great example where, you know, now you can find great candle makers all over Ireland with, you know, small minimum quantity requirements. And also they can bespoke or tailor it to your brand. So if you're a museum or if you're a, again, whatever the nature of your brand is, a national store or whatever, you can have a small batch made. Which lets you have something that has provenance. And here it's Irish made, it's Irish owned. And then there's some, you know, it just it gives you an opportunity.Jennifer  Kennedy: Unfortunately, we're never going to be in a position where we can source everything we want in Ireland. It just isn't realistic. And commercially, it's not viable. As much as you can, you should try and connect with the makers and creators that they are available and see if small batches are available. And they're beautiful to have within your gift store, but they also have to be the balance of other commercial products that will have to be sourced outside of Ireland will also have to play a significant role as well.Máirín Walsh: I think there needs to be a good price point as well. Like, you know, we find that in our museum, that, you know, if something is above 20, 25 euro, the customer has to kind of really think about purchasing it, where if it's 20 euro or under, you know, it's...Michael  Dolan: More of an input item, yeah.Máirín Walsh: Yes, exactly, yeah.Paul Marden: And so when it's over that price point, that's when you need to be sourcing locally again. Máirín Walsh: It's a harder sell. You're kind of maybe explaining a bit more to them and trying to get them to purchase it. You know, they have to think about it.Jennifer  Kennedy: But it's also good for the storytelling elements as well because it helps you engage. So I've often found as well that even train the teams and the customer service. It's actually a lovely space to have, to be able to use it as part of storytelling that we have this locally made or it's made in Cork or wherever it's coming from, that it's Irish made.Máirín Walsh: We have, what have we got? We've kind of got scarves and that and we have local— we had candles a few years ago actually. I think they were made or... up the country or whatever. But anyway, it was at Reginald's Tower and there were different kinds of candles of different attractions around and they really connected with your audience.Michael  Dolan: So 20% of our turnover would be food and all that is made in Ireland. Virtually all of that is sourced locally here in Ireland. And that's a very important part of our overall product portfolio and growing as well.Paul Marden: Is it important to serve different audiences with the right product? So I'm thinking... Making sure that there's pocket money items in there for kids, because often when they come to a museum or attraction, it's their first time they ever get to spend their own money on a transaction. Yeah, that would be their first memory of shopping. So giving them what they need, but at the same time having that 25 euro and over price point. To have a real set piece item is?Jennifer  Kennedy: I would say that's very specific to the brand. Paul Marden: Really? Jennifer  Kennedy: Yes, because some brands can't actually sell products or shouldn't be selling products to children. Paul Marden: Really? I'm looking at the Guinness items at the end of the table.Jennifer  Kennedy: So it depends on the brand. So obviously, in many of the destinations around Ireland, some of them are quite heavily family-oriented. And absolutely in those environments where you've got gardens, playgrounds or theme parks. Absolutely. You have to have that range of product that's very much tailored to young families and children. In other environments, not necessarily. But you still need to have a range that appeals to the masses. Because you will have visitors from all walks of life and with all perspectives. So it's more about having something. I'm going to keep bringing it back to it. It's specific to why this brand is here. And if you can create product within a fair price point, and Mairin is absolutely right. The balance of how much your products cost to the consumer will make or break how your retail performs. And in most destinations, what you're actually aiming to do is basket size. You want them to go away with three, four, five products from you, not necessarily one.Jennifer  Kennedy: Because if you think about it, that's more beneficial for the brand. I mean, most people are buying for gifting purposes. They're bringing things back to multiple people. So, if I'm able to pick up a nice candle and it's eight or 10 euros, well, I might buy three of them if it's a beautiful candle in a nice package. Whereas, if I went in and the only option available to me was a 35-euro candle, I probably might buy that, but I'm only buying one product. And I'm only giving that to either myself or one other person. Whereas, if you can create a range that's a good price, but it's also appealing and very connected to why they came to visit you in the first place, then that's a much more powerful, for the brand point of view, that's a much more... Powerful purchasing options are available to have a basket size that's growing.Michael  Dolan: We worked together in the National Stud in Kildare, so we did a great kids range of stationery, which worked really well. We've just done a new range for the GAA museum, all stationery-related, because they get a lot of kids. Again, we would have collaborated on that.Jennifer  Kennedy: And actually, the natural studs are a really nice example as well, because from even a textile point of view, you can lean into equine as the, so you can do beautiful products with ponies and horses. Yeah. You know, so again, some brands make it very, it's easy to see the path that you can take with product. And then others are, you know, you have to think harder. It's a little bit more challenging. So, and particularly for cultural and heritage sites, then that really has to be grounded in what are the collections, what is on offer in these sites, in these museums, in these heritage sites, and really start to unravel the stories that you can turn into product.Paul Marden: But a product isn't enough, is it?Jennifer  Kennedy: Absolutely not.Paul Marden: Set making, merchandising, storytelling, they all engage the customer, don't they?Jennifer  Kennedy: 100%.Paul Marden: Where have you seen that being done well in Ireland?Michael  Dolan: Get a store is the preeminent example, I would think. I mean, it's a stunning shop. Have you met Catherine too? Paul Marden: No, not yet. Lovely to meet you, Catherine.  Michael  Dolan: Catherine is in charge of getting the stories. Paul Marden: Okay. Any other examples that aren't, maybe, sat at the table? Game of Thrones is a really good example and Titanic.Michael  Dolan: Game of Thrones.  I think Titanic's good. The new shop in Trinity College is very strong, I think. So it's a temporary digital exhibition while they're revamping the library. They've done an excellent job in creating a wonderful new shop, even on a temporary basis.Jennifer  Kennedy: I would say Crowe Park as well. The GAA museum there has undergone a full refurbishment and it's very tailored towards their audience. So they're very, it's high volume, very specific to their... And the look and feel is very much in keeping with the nature of the reason why people go to Crowe Park. I would say the Irish National Asteroid as well. And Colmar Abbey, Cliffs of Moher. We've got some really great offers all over the island of Ireland.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I was at W5 recently in Belfast and I think that is a brilliant example of what a Science Centre gift shop could be like. Because often there will be the kind of generic stuff that you'll see in any attraction— a notebook with rubber and a pencil— but they also had lots of, there were lots of science-led toys and engineering-led toys, so they had... big Lego section. It was like going into a proper toy shop. It was just a really impressive gift shop that you could imagine engaging a kid.Catherine Toolan: And if I could come in there for an example outside of Ireland, you've got the House of Lego in Billund. I don't know if anybody has been there, but they've got a customised range, which is only available. Really? Yes, and it's so special. They've got a really unique building, so the Lego set is in the shape of the building. They've got their original dock. But the retail store in that space, it's very geared towards children as Lego is, but also imagination play. So they've done a brilliant job on looking at, you know, the texture of their product, the colour of their product. And whilst it's usually geared to children, it's also geared to adult lovers of Lego. So it's beautiful. Huge tech as well. They've incredible RFID wristbands, which you get from your ticket at the beginning of the experience. So all of your photo ops and everything you can download from the RFID wristband. Very cool.Jennifer  Kennedy: Actually, I would say it's probably from a tech point of view, one of the best attractions I've been to in recent years. Like, it's phenomenal. I remember going there the year it opened first because it was fascinating. I have two boys who are absolutely Lego nuts. And I just— we went to the home of LEGO in Billund when it opened that year and I just was blown away. I had never experienced, and I go to experiences everywhere, but I've never, from a tech point of view and a brand engagement perspective, understood the nature, the type of product that they deliver. For me, it's, like I said, I tell everyone to go to Billund. Paul Marden: Really? We've got such amazing jobs, haven't we? However, as you're both talking, I'm thinking you're a bit like me. You don't get to go and enjoy the experience for the experience's own sake because you're looking at what everybody's doing.Jennifer  Kennedy: But can I actually just add to that? There's another one in the Swarovski Crystal in Austria.Paul Marden: Really?Jennifer  Kennedy: That is phenomenal. And in terms of their retail space, it's like, I like a bit of sparkle, so I'm not going to lie. It was like walking into heaven. And their retail offering there is world-class in that store. And the whole brand experience from start to finish, which is what you're always trying to achieve. It's the full 360 of full immersion. You're literally standing inside a giant crystal. It's like being in a dream. Right. A crystal, sparkly dream from start to finish. And then, every year, they partner and collaborate with whoever— designers, musicians, whoever's iconic or, you know, very... present in that year or whatever. And they do these wonderful collaborations and partnerships with artists, designers, you name it.Paul Marden: Sorry, Catherine, there you go.Catherine Toolan: Thank you very much. It's on my list of places to go, but I do know the team there and what they're also doing is looking at the premiumization. So they close their retail store for high net worth individuals to come in and buy unique and special pieces. You know, they use their core experience for the daytime. And we all talk about the challenges. I know, Tom, you talk about this, you know, how do you scale up visitor experience when you're at capacity and still make sure you've a brilliant net promoter score and that the experience of the customer is fantastic. So that is about sweating the acid and you know it's that good, better, best. You know they have something for everybody but they have that halo effect as well.  So it's really cool.Paul Marden: Wow. Thank you. I'm a bit of a geek. I love a bit of technology. What do you think technology is doing to the gift shop experience? Are there new technologies that are coming along that are going to fundamentally change the way the gift shop experience works?Jennifer  Kennedy: I think that's rooted in the overall experience. So I don't think it's a separate piece. I think there's loads of things out there now where you can, you know, virtual mirrors have been around for years and all these other really interesting. The whole gamification piece, if you're in an amazing experience and you're getting prompts and things to move an offer today, but so that's that's been around for quite some time. I'm not sure that it's been fully utilised yet across the board, especially in I would say there's a way to go in how it influences the stores in Ireland in attractions at the moment. There'll be only a handful who I'd say are using technology, mainly digital screens, is what I'm experiencing and seeing generally. And then, if there is a big attraction, some sort of prompts throughout that and how you're communicating digitally through the whole experience to get people back into the retail space. Paul Marden: Yeah, I can imagine using tech to be able to prompt somebody at the quiet times of the gift shop. Michael  Dolan: Yeah, also Guinness now you can order a pint glass with your own message on it in advance. It's ready for you when you finish your tour. You go to a locker and you just open the locker and you walk out with your glass. Catherine Toolan: Could I just say, though, that you just don't open a locker like it's actually lockers? There's a lot of customisation to the lockers because the idea came from the original Parcel Motel. So the locker is actually you key in a code and then when you open the customised locker, there's a Guinness quote inside it and your personalised glass is inside it. And the amount of customers and guests that we get to say, could we lock the door again? We want to actually open it and have that. whole experience so you know that's where I think in you know and one of the questions that would be really interesting to talk about is you know, what about self-scanning and you know, the idea of checkouts that are not having the human connection. Is that a thing that will work when you've got real experiences? I don't know. But we know that the personalisation of the engraved glasses and how we've custom designed the lockers— not to just be set of lockers— has made that difference. So they're very unique, they're colourful, they're very Guinnessified. And of course, the little personal quote that you get when you open the locker from our archives, make that a retail experience that's elevated. Paul Marden: Wow.Jennifer  Kennedy: But I would also say to your point on that, that the actual, the real magic is also in the people, in the destinations, because it's not like gift shops and destinations and experiences. They're not like high street and they shouldn't be. It should be a very different experience that people are having when they've paid to come and participate with you in your destination. So I actually think technology inevitably plays a role and it's a support and it will create lovely quirks and unusual little elements throughout the years.Paul Marden: I think personalisation is great.  Jennifer  Kennedy: And personalisation, absolutely. But the actual, like I would be quite against the idea of automating checkout and payouts in gift shops, in destinations, because for me... That takes away the whole essence of the final touch point is actually whoever's talked to you when you did that transaction and whoever said goodbye or asked how your experience was or did you enjoy yourself? So those you can't you can't replace that with without a human personal touch. So for me, that's intrinsically important, that it has to be retained, that the personal touch is always there for the goodbye.Dean Kelly: I'm very happy that you brought up the human touch. I'm a photo company, I do pictures. And all the time when we're talking to operators, they're like, 'Can we make it self-serve? Can we get rid of the staffing costs?' I'm like, 'I'm a photographer. Photographers take pictures of people. We need each other to engage, react, and put the groups together. No, we don't want the staff costs. But I'm like, it's not about the staff costs. It's about the customer's experience. So all day long, our challenge is, more so in the UK now, because we operate in the UK, and everybody over there is very, we don't want the staff.' And I think, if you lose the staff engagement, especially taking a picture, you lose the memory and you lose the moment. And photographers have a really good job to do, a very interesting job, is where to capture people together. And if you lose that person— touch point of getting the togetherness— You just have people touching the screen, which they might as well be on their phone.Paul Marden: And the photo won't look as good, will it? Anybody could take a photo, but it takes a photographer to make people look like they're engaged and happy and in the moment.Dean Kelly: Yeah, exactly, and a couple of other points that you mentioned— with the brand, personalisation, gamification, all that kind of cool, juicy stuff, all the retail stuff, people going home with the memory, the moment, all that stuff's cool, but nobody mentioned photos until Cashin, you mentioned photos. We've had a long conversation with photos for a long time, and we'll probably be still chatting for another long time as well. But photography is a super, super retail revenue stream. But it's not about the revenue, it's about the moment and the magic. Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah, you're capturing the magic. Dean Kelly: Capturing it. And fair enough that what you guys do at Shamrock is very interesting because you talk to the operators. You kind of go, 'What gifts are going to work for your visitors?' And you turn that into a product. And that's exactly what we do with all the experiences. We take pictures.Dean Kelly: But what's your demographic saying? What's your price points? What's your brand? What's your message? And let's turn that into a personalised souvenir, put the people in the brand, and let them take it home and engage with it.Paul Marden: So... I think one of the most important things is how you blend the gift shop with the rest of the experience. You were giving a good example of exiting through the gift shop. It's a very important thing, isn't it? But if you put it in the wrong place, you don't get that. How do you blend the gift shop into the experience?Jennifer  Kennedy: Well, I would say I wouldn't call it a blend. For me, the retail element of the brand should be a wow. Like it should be as invaluable, as important as everything else. So my perspective would be get eyes on your retail offering sooner rather than later. Not necessarily that they will participate there and then.Jennifer  Kennedy: The visual and the impact it has on seeing a wow— this looks like an amazing space. This looks like with all these products, but it's also— I was always chasing the wow. I want you to go, wow, this looks amazing. Because, to me, that's when you've engaged someone that they're not leaving until they've gotten in there. It is important that people can potentially move through it at the end. And, you know, it depends on the building. It depends on the structure. You know, a lot of these things are taken out of your hands. You've got to work with what you've got. Jennifer  Kennedy: But you have to work with what you've got, not just to blend it, to make it stand out as exceptional. Because that's actually where the magic really starts. And it doesn't matter what brand that is. The aim should always be that your retail offering is exceptional from every touch point. And it shouldn't be obvious that we've spent millions in creating this wonderful experience. And now you're being shoehorned into the poor relation that was forgotten a little bit and now has ten years later looks a bit ramshackle. And we're trying to figure out why we don't get what we should out of it.Michael  Dolan: And it has to be an integral part of the whole experience.Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah, and I think for new experiences that are in planning stages, I've seen that more and more in recent years. Now, where I was being called to retrofix or rip out things going, this doesn't work, I'm like, okay, well, we have to retro do this. Now, when people are doing new builds or new investments into new spaces, I'm getting those calls at the planning stages where it's like, we've allocated this amount of space to retail. Do you think that's enough? And I don't think I've ever said yes, ever. At every single turn, I'm like... No, it's not enough. And, you know, what's your anticipated football? Oh, that's the numbers start to play a role in it. But it's not just about that. It's about the future proofing. It's like what happens in five years, 10 years, 15? Because I've been very lucky to work in buildings where it's not easy to figure out where you're going to go next. And particularly heritage sites and cultural heritage. Like I can't go in and knock a hole in the crypt in Christchurch Cathedral. But I need a bigger retail space there.Jennifer  Kennedy: The earlier you start to put retail as a central commercial revenue stream in your business, the more eyes you have on it from the get-go, the more likely it is that it will be successful. Not now, not in five years, not in ten years, but that you're building blocks for this, what can become. Like it should be one of your strongest revenue streams after ticket sales because that's what it can become. But you have to go at it as this is going to be amazing.Catherine Toolan: I think it's important that it's not a hard sell and that's in your face. And, you know, that's where, when you think about the consumer journey, we always think about the behavioural science of the beginning, the middle, and the end. And people remember three things. You know, there's lots of other touch points. But if retail is a really hard sell throughout the experience, I don't think the net promoter score of your overall experience will, you know, come out, especially if you're, you know, and we're not a children's destination. An over 25 adult destination at the Guinness Storehouse and at our alcohol brand homes. But what's really important is that it's authentic, it's really good, and it's highly merchandised, and that it's unique. I think that uniqueness is it— something that you can get that you can't get anywhere else. You know, how do you actually, one of the things that we would have done if we had it again, we would be able to make our retail store available to the domestic audience, to the public without buying a ticket. So, you know, you've got that opportunity if your brand is the right brand that you can have walk-in off the high street, for example.Catherine Toolan: So, you know, there's so many other things that you can think about because that's an extension of your revenue opportunity where you don't have to come in to do the whole experience. And that is a way to connect the domestic audience, which is something I know a lot of the members of the Association, AVEA are trying to do. You know, how do we engage and connect and get repeat visits and and retail is a big opportunity to do that, especially at gifting season.Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah, sustainability is increasingly important to the narrative of the whole retail experience, isn't it? How do you make sure that we're not going about just selling plastic tat that nobody's going to look after?Michael  Dolan: We've made this a core value for Shamrock Gift Company, so we've engaged with a company called Clearstream Solutions, the same company that Guinness Store has. have worked with them. So it's a long-term partnership. So they've measured our carbon footprint from 2019 to 2023. So we've set ourselves the ambitious target of being carbon neutral by 2030.Michael  Dolan: So just some of the elements that we've engaged in. So we put 700 solar panels on our roof as of last summer. All our deliveries in Dublin are done with electric vans, which we've recently purchased. All the lights in the building now are LED. Motion-sensored as well. All the cars are electric or that we've purchased recently, and we've got a gas boiler. So we've also now our shipments from China we're looking at biodiesel. So that's fully sustainable. And we also, where we can't use biodiesel, we're doing carbon offsetting as well.Paul Marden: So a lot of work being done in terms of the cost of CO2 of the transport that you're doing. What about the product itself? How do you make sure that the product itself is inherently something that people are going to treasure and is not a throwaway item?Michael  Dolan: We're using more sustainable materials, so a lot more stone, a lot more wood. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Michael  Dolan: Yeah. Also, it begins with great design. Yeah. So, you know, and obviously working with our retail partners, make sure that the goods are very well designed, very well manufactured. So we're working with some wonderful, well, best in class manufacturers around the world. Absolutely.Jennifer  Kennedy: I think as well, if... you can, and it's becoming easier to do, if you can collaborate with some creators and makers that are actually within your location.Jennifer  Kennedy: Within Ireland, there's a lot more of that happening, which means sourcing is closer to home. But you also have this other economy that's like the underbelly of the craft makers market in Ireland, which is fabulous, which needs to be brought to the fore. So collaborations with brands can also form a very integral part of product development that's close to home and connected to people who are here—people who are actually creating product in Ireland.Paul Marden: This is just instinct, not knowledge at all. But I would imagine that when you're dealing with those local crafters and makers, that they are inherently more sustainable because they're creating things local to you. It's not just the distance that's...Jennifer  Kennedy: Absolutely, but in any instances that I'm aware of that I've been involved with, anyway, even the materials and their mythology, yeah, is all grounded in sustainability and which is fabulous to see. Like, there's more and there's more and more coming all the time.Michael  Dolan: We've got rid of 3 million bags a year. Key rings, mags used to be individually bagged. And now there are 12 key rings in a bag that's biodegradable. That alone is 2 million bags.Paul Marden: It's amazing, isn't it? When you look at something as innocuous as the bag itself that it's packaged in before it's shipped out. You can engineer out of the supply chain quite a lot of unnecessary packaging Michael  Dolan: And likewise, then for the retailer, they don't have to dispose of all that packaging. So it's a lot easier and cleaner to put the product on the shelf. Yes.Paul Marden: Something close to my heart, online retail. Have you seen examples where Irish attractions have extended their gift shop experience online, particularly well?Jennifer  Kennedy: For instance, there are a few examples, but what I was thinking more about on that particular thought was around the nature of the brand again and the product that, in my experience, the brands that can do that successfully tend to have something on offer that's very nostalgic or collectible. Or memorabilia and I think there are some examples in the UK potentially that are where they can be successful online because they have a brand or a product that people are collecting.Paul Marden: Yeah, so one of my clients is Jane Austen House, only about two miles away from where I live. And it blew me away the importance of their online shop to them. They're tiny. I mean, it is a little cottage in the middle of Hampshire, but they have an international audience for their gift shop. And it's because they've got this really, really committed audience of Jane Austen fans who want to buy something from the house. Then everybody talks about the Tank Museum in Dorset.Paul Marden: Who make a fortune selling fluffy tank slippers and all you could possibly imagine memorabilia related to tanks. Because again, it's that collection of highly curated products and this really, really committed audience of people worldwide. Catherine Toolan: The Tank were here last year presenting at the AVEA conference and it was such an incredible story about their success and, you know, how they went from a very small museum with a lot of support from government to COVID to having an incredible retail store, which is now driving their commercial success.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Nick has done a load of work. Yeah, that leads me nicely onto a note. So listeners, for a long time, Skip the Queue has been totally focused on the podcast. But today we have launched our first playbook. Which is hopefully the first of many. But the playbook that we're launching today is all about how attractions can focus on best practice for gift shop e-commerce. So we work with partners, Rubber Cheese, Navigate, and Stephen Spencer Associates. So Steve and his team has helped us to contribute to some sections to the guide around, how do you curate your product? How do you identify who the audience is? How do you create that collection? The team at Rubber Cheese talk about the mechanics of how do you put it online and then our friends at Navigate help you to figure out what the best way is to get bums on seats. So it was a crackpot idea of mine six months ago to put it together, and it is now huge.Paul Marden: It's packed full of advice, and that's gone live today. So you can go over to skipthequeue.fm and click on the Playbooks link there to go and download that. Thank you. So, Jennifer, Michael, it has been absolutely wonderful to talk to both of you. Thank you to my audience. You've also been fabulous. Well done. And what a packed episode that was. I get the feeling you two quite enjoy gift shops and retailing. You could talk quite a lot about it.Jennifer  Kennedy: I mean, I love it.  Paul Marden: That didn't come over at all. Jennifer  Kennedy: Well, I just think it's such a lovely way of connecting with people and keeping a connection, particularly from a brand point of view. It should be the icing on the cake, you know?Paul Marden: You're not just a market store salesperson, are you?Jennifer  Kennedy: And I thoroughly believe that the most successful ones are because the experiences that they're a part of sow the seeds. They plant the love, the emotion, the energy. All you're really doing is making sure that that magic stays with people when they go away. The brand experience is the piece that's actually got them there in the first place. Paul Marden: Now let's go over to the conference floor to hear from some Irish operators and suppliers.Charles  Coyle: I'm Charles Coyle. I'm the managing director of Emerald Park. We're Ireland's only theme park and zoo. We opened in November 2010, which shows you how naive and foolish we were that we opened a visitor attraction in the middle of winter. Fortunately, we survived it.Paul Marden: But you wouldn't open a visitor attraction in the middle of summer, so give yourself a little bit of a run-up to it. It's not a bad idea.Charles  Coyle: Well, that's true, actually. You know what? I'll say that from now on, that we had the genius to open in the winter. We're open 15 years now, and we have grown from very small, humble aspirations of maybe getting 150,000 people a year to we welcomed 810,000 last year. And we'll probably be in and around the same this year as well.  Paul Marden: Wowzers, that is really impressive. So we are here on the floor. We've already heard some really interesting talks. We've been talking about AI in the most recent one. What can we expect to happen for you in the season coming in?Charles  Coyle: Well, we are hopefully going to be integrating a lot of AI. There's possibly putting in a new booking system and things like that. A lot of that will have AI dynamic pricing, which has got a bad rap recently, but it has been done for years and years in hotels.Paul Marden: Human nature, if you ask people, should I be punished for travelling during the summer holidays and visiting in a park? No, that sounds terrible. Should I be rewarded for visiting during a quiet period? Oh, yes! Yes, I should definitely. It's all about perspective, isn't it? Very much so. And it is how much you don't want to price gouge people. You've got to be really careful. But I do think dynamic pricing has its place.Charles  Coyle: Oh, absolutely. I mean, a perfect example of it is right now, our top price is not going to go any higher, but it'll just be our lower price will be there more constantly, you know, and we'll... Be encouraging people to come in on the Tuesdays and Wednesdays, as you said, rewarding people for coming in at times in which we're not that busy and they're probably going to have a better day as a result.Susanne Reid: Hi, Suzanne Reid here. I'm the CEO at Christchurch Cathedral, Dublin. What are you here to get out of the conference? First and foremost, the conference is a great opportunity every year to... catch up with people that you may only see once a year from all corners of the country and it's also an opportunity to find out what's new and trending within tourism. We've just come from a really energising session on AI and also a very thought-provoking session on crisis management and the dangers of solar panels.Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, the story of We the Curious is definitely an interesting one. So we've just come off the back of the summer season. So how was that for you?Susanne Reid:Summer season started slower than we would have liked this year in 2025, but the two big American football matches were very strong for us in Dublin. Dublin had a reasonable season, I would say, and we're very pleased so far on the 13th of the month at how October is playing out. So hoping for a very strong finish to the year. So coming up to Christmas at Christchurch, we'll have a number of cathedral events. So typically our carol concerts, they tend to sell out throughout the season. Then we have our normal pattern of services and things as well.Paul Marden: I think it's really important, isn't it? You have to think back to this being a place of worship. Yes, it is a visitor attraction. Yes, that's an aside, isn't it? And the reason it is a place of worship.Susanne Reid: I think that's obviously back to what our earlier speaker was talking about today. That's our charitable purpose, the promotion of religion, Christianity. However, you know, Christchurch is one of the most visited attractions in the city.Susanne Reid: Primarily, people do come because it will be there a thousand years in 2028. So there is, you know, the stones speak really. And, you know, one of the sessions I've really benefited from this morning was around accessible tourism. And certainly that's a journey we're on at the cathedral because, you know, a medieval building never designed for access, really. Paul Marden: No, not hugely. Susanne Reid: Not at all. So that's part of our programming and our thinking and our commitment to the city and to those that come to it from our local communities. But also from further afield, that they can come and enjoy the splendour of this sacred space.Paul Marden: I've been thinking long and hard, and been interviewing people, especially people like We The Curious, where they're coming into their 25th anniversary. They were a Millennium Project. I hadn't even thought about interviewing an attraction that was a thousand years old. A genuine millennium project.Susanne Reid: Yeah, so we're working towards that, Paul. And, you know, obviously there's a committee in-house thinking of how we might celebrate that. One of the things that, you know, I know others may have seen elsewhere, but... We've commissioned a Lego builder to build a Lego model of the cathedral. There will obviously be some beautiful music commissioned to surround the celebration of a thousand years of Christchurch at the heart of the city. There'll be a conference. We're also commissioning a new audio tour called the ACE Tour, Adults, Children and Everyone, which will read the cathedral for people who have no sense of what they're looking at when they maybe see a baptismal font, for example. You know, we're really excited about this and we're hoping the city will be celebratory mood with us in 2028.Paul Marden: Well, maybe you can bring me back and I'll come and do an episode and focus on your thousand year anniversary.Susanne Reid: You'd be so welcome.Paul Marden: Oh, wonderful. Thank you, Suzanne.Paul Marden: I am back on the floor. We have wrapped up day one. And I am here with Ray Dempsey from Jameson Distillery. Ray, what's it been like today?Ray  Dempsey: Paul, it's been a great day. I have to say, I always loved the AVEA conference. It brings in such great insights into our industry and into our sector. And it's hosted here in Waterford, a city that I'm a native of. And, you know, seeing it through the eyes of a tourist is just amazing, actually, because normally I fly through here. And I don't have the chance to kind of stop and think, but the overall development of Waterford and the presentation from the Waterford County Council was really, really good. It's fantastic. They have a plan. A plan that really is driving tourism. Waterford, as a tourist destination, whereas before, you passed through Waterford. It was Waterford Crystal's stop and that was it. But they have put so much into the restoration of buildings, the introduction of lovely artisan products, very complimentary to people coming to here, whether it is for a day, a weekend, or a week. Fantastic.Paul Marden: What is it? We're in the middle of October and it's a bit grey and drizzly out there. But let's be fair, the town has been packed. The town has been packed.With coaches outside, so my hotel this morning full of tourists.Ray  Dempsey: Amazing, yeah it's a great hub, a great hub, and they've done so much with the city to enable that, and you see, as you pass down the keys, you know that new bridge there to enable extra traffic coming straight into the heart of the city, it's fantastic. We're all learning from it, and hopefully, bring it all back to our own hometowns.Paul Marden: I think it's been really interesting. We were talking earlier on, before I got the microphone out, saying how it's been a real mixed bag this year across the island of Ireland, hasn't it? So some people really, really busy, some people rubbish year.Ray  Dempsey: Yeah, I mean, I feel privileged the fact that, you know, we haven't seen that in Dublin. So, you know, there's a it's been a very strong year, a little bit after a little bit of a bumpy start in January, February. But, like, for the rest of the year onwards, it's been fantastic. It's been back to back festivals and lots of things, lots of reasons why people come to Dublin. And, of course, with the introduction of the NFL. That's new to us this year. And hopefully, we'll see it for a number of years to come. But they're great builders for organic growth for our visitor numbers. So I'm happy to say that I'm seeing a growth in both revenue and in visitor numbers in the Jameson Distillery. So I'm happy to see that. Now, naturally, I'm going to have to work harder to make sure it happens next year and the year after. But I'm happy to say that the tourism product in Dublin has definitely improved. And Dublin-based visitor attractions are doing well. Paul Marden: Exciting plans for summer 26? Ray  Dempsey: Yes, every year is exciting, Paul. And every year brings a challenge and everything else. But I'm delighted to say that our focus for 2026 really is on building inclusion. So we're looking at language tours.Ray  Dempsey: We're looking at tours for... you know, margins in society. And I think it's a really interesting way for us to be able to embrace accessibility to our story. And also, we have increased our experience repertoire to engage more high-end experiences, not private experiences. More demand for those. Okay. So we're delighted to say that we have the product in order to be able to do that. So that's exciting for us, you know, to be building into 2026. Great. Paul Marden: Thank you so much for joining us. I am the only thing standing in the way of you and a drink at the cocktail reception later on. So I think we should call it quits. Ray  Dempsey: And for sure. Paul Marden: If you enjoyed today's episode, then please like and comment in your podcast app. It really does help others to find us. Today's episode was written by me, Paul Marden, with help from Emily Burrows from Plaster. It was edited by Steve Folland and produced by Wenalyn Dionaldo. See you next week. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

This week on Skip the Queue, we're stepping into the turret and turning up the tension, as we explore one of the UK's most talked-about immersive experiences.Our guest is Neil Connolly, Creative Director at The Everywhere Group, who have brought The Traitors Live Experience to life. With over 10 million viewers watching every betrayal, backstab and banishment on the BBC show, expectations for the live version were nothing short of murderous.So, how do you even begin to transform a TV juggernaut into a thrilling, guest-led experience? Let's find out who's playing the game… and who's about to be banished…Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references: The Traitors Live website: https://www.thetraitorslive.co.uk/Neil's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-connolly-499054110/Neil Connolly is a creative leader of design and production teams focused on development, production and installation of live theatre, entertainment, multi-media and attractions for the themed entertainment industry worldwide.Neil began his career as a performer, writer, producer & artist in Londons alternative theatre/art scene. It was during this time Neil developed a love and passion for story telling through the platform of interactive playable immersive theatre.Having been at the vanguard of playable & immersive theatre since 2007, Neil had a career defining opportunity in 2019 when he devised, wrote & directed an immersive experience as part of Sainsbury's 150th Birthday Celebrations. Making him the only immersive theatre & game maker in the world to have HRH Elizabeth Regina attend one of their experiences.In a distinguished career spanning 20 years, Neil has brought that passion to every facet of themed entertainment in the creative direction and production of attractions such as; Handels Messiah, Snowman & The Snowdog, Peppa Pig Surprise Party, Traitors Live, The Crystal Maze Live Experience, Tomb Raider Live Experience & Chaos Karts, an AR go-kart real life battle. Other clients and activations include: Harrods, Sainsbury's, Camelot/The National Lottery, Samsung, Blenheim Palace, Land Rover and Warner Brothers.Neil has worked across 4 continents for many years with private individuals; designing, producing and delivering live entertainment on land, sea & air. A world without boundaries requires freethinking.Neil is currently working with Immersive Everywhere on creative development of show and attraction content for projects across U.K, Europe, North America & Asia. Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: This week on Skip the Queue, we're stepping into the turret and turning up the tension as we explore one of the UK's most talked about immersive experiences.Paul Marden: Our guest is Neil Connolly, Creative Director at The Everywhere Group, who've brought The Traitor's live experience to life. With over 10 million viewers watching every betrayal, backstab and banishment on the BBC show, expectations for the live version were nothing short of murderous. So how do you even begin to transform a TV juggernaut into a thrilling guest-led experience? Let's find out who's playing the game and who's about to be banished.Paul Marden: So, we're underground. Lots of groups running currently, aren't they? How did you make that happenNeil Connolly: Yeah, so now we're two floors under us. There's a lower basement and some other basement. So the building that we are in, there's a family in the 1890s who owned all of the land around Covent Garden and specifically the Adelphi Theatre.Paul Marden: Right.Neil Connolly: And they wanted their theatre to be the first theatre in the UK to have its lights powered by electricity. So they built their own private power station in this building. Like, literally like, all this, this is a power station. But unfortunately for these the Savoy had taken to that moniker, so they quickly built their important institution. The family had this building until the 1980s when the establishment was assumed through the important UK network.Neil Connolly: And then it was sat there empty, doing nothing for 40 years. And so the landlord that is now started redeveloping the building 10 years ago, added two floors onto the top of the building. So now what we're in is an eight-storey structure and we've basically got the bottom four floors. Two of which are ground and mezzanine, which is our hospitality area. And the lower two floors, which are all in the basement, are our experience floors. What we're looking at right now is, if you look off down this way to the right, not you people on audio, but me here.Neil Connolly: Off this side is five of the round table rooms. There's another one behind me and there's two more upstairs. And then I've got some Tretters Towers off to the left and I've got my show control system down there.Neil Connolly: On the floor above me, we've got the lounges. So each lounge is connected to one of the round table rooms. Because when you get murdered or banished, one of the biggest challenges that I faced was what happens to people when they get murdered or banished? Because you get kicked out of the game. It's not a lot of fun, is it? Therefore, for me, you also get kicked out of the round table room. So this is a huge challenge I face. But I built these lounge concepts where you go— it's the lounge of the dead— and you can see and hear the round table room that you've just left. We'll go walk into the room in a while. There's lots of interactivity. But yeah, super fun. Neil Connolly: But unfortunately for these the Savoy had taken to that moniker, so they quickly built their important institution. The family had this establishment until the 1980s when the establishment was considered through the important UK network.Paul Marden: Yeah. So we've got 10 million people tuning in to Traitors per episode. So this must be a lot of pressure for you to get it right. Tell us about the experience and what challenges you faced along the way, from, you know, that initial text message through to the final creation that we're stood in now.Neil Connolly: So many challenges, but to quote Scroobius Pip on this, do you know Scroobius Pip? Paul Marden: No. Neil Connolly: Great, he's amazing. UK rapper from Essex.Neil Connolly: Some people see a mousetrap and think death. I see free cheese and a challenge.Neil Connolly: There's never any problems in my logic, in my thinking. There's always just challenges to overcome. So one of the biggest challenges was what happens to people when they get murdered or banished. The truth of the matter is I had to design a whole other show, which happens after this show. It is one big show. But you go to the Lounge of the Dead, there's more interactivity. And navigating that with the former controller, which is O3 Media and IDTV, who created the original format in the Netherlands, and basically designing a game that is in the world and follows the rules of their game with some reasonable adjustments, because TV and live are not the same thing.Neil Connolly: It takes 14 days to film 12 episodes of The Traitors. Paul Marden: Really? Okay. Neil Connolly: So I was like, how do I truncate 14 days of somebody's life down into a two-hour experience and still deliver that same impact, that same power, that same punch?Paul Marden: Yep.Neil Connolly: But I knew from the beginning of this that it wasn't about time. There is a magic triangle when it comes to the traitors, which is time, space, atmosphere. And time was the thing that I always struggled with. I don't have a Scottish cattle show, and I don't have two weeks. No. So I'm like, 'Cool, I've got to do it in two hours.' So our format follows exactly the same format. We do a breakfast scene, then a mission, then a roundtable banishment, then there's a conclave where the traitors meet and they murder somebody. And I do that in a seven-day structure, a seven-day cycle. But it all happens within two hours around this round table.Neil Connolly: I'm the creative director for Immersive Everywhere. We're a vertically integrated structure in the sense that we take on our own venues. So we're now standing in Shorts Gardens in the middle of Covent Garden. So we've leased this building. We've got a lease that is for a number of years and we have built the show into it. But we also identify the IP, go after that ourselves, we capitalise the projects ourselves. We seek strategic partners, promoters, other people to kind of come involved in that journey. But because we're also the team that are licensing the product, we are also the producers and I'm the creative director for that company. So I developed the creative in line with while also getting the deal done. This is incredibly unusual because other producers will be like, 'Hey, I've identified this IP and I've got it.' Now I'm going to approach a creative agency and I'm going to get them to develop the product. And now I've done all of that, I'm going to find someone else to operationally put it on, or I'm going to find a venue to put it on in, and then I'm going to find my ticketing partner.  But we don't do that. We have our own ticketing platform, and we have our own database, so we mark our own shoulders.Neil Connolly: As well as other experiences too. Back, we have our own creative industry, we are the producers, we are the female workers. So we cast it, we hire all the front of house team, we run the food and beverage, we run the bars. The operations team is our operations team because they run the venue as well as the show at the same time. So that's what I mean. We're a vertically integrated structure, which means we do it, which makes us a very unusual proposition within... certainly within the UK market, possibly the world. It makes us incredibly agile as a company and makes us to be able to be adaptive and proactive and reactive to the product, to the show, to the market that we're operating in, because it's all under one roof.Neil Connolly: This show started January 24th, 2023. Right. It's very specific because I was sitting on my sofa drinking a lovely glass of Merlot and I had just watched... UK Traitors, Season One. Yep. Because it came out that Christmas. Immediately I was like, 'Oh my God, this is insane.' And then I got a text message that particular night from our head of licensing, a guy named Tom Rowe, lovely man. And he was like, Neil, I'm at a licensing event with some friends of mine and everyone's talking about this thing called Traitors. I've not watched it. Have you watched it? Sounds like it might be a good thing. And so I sat back and drank my Merlot. And about five minutes later, I text him back and I was like, Tom, get us that license.Neil Connolly: And then I sent him a bunch of other details of how the show in my head would work, both from a commercial standpoint, but also from a creative standpoint, because I'm a commercially minded creative. Right. So I instantly took out my notebook and I started writing down exactly how I thought the show was going to do, the challenges that we would face and being able to translate this into a live thing. But I literally started writing it that night. And then he watched the first episode on the train on the way home. And then he texted me the next morning and he was like, 'I love it.' What do we need to do? And I was like, 'Get us in the room.' Two days later, we were in the room with all three media who own the format globally.Paul Marden: Okay.Neil Connolly: So we sat down and then they came to see one of our other shows and they were like, 'Okay, we get it now.' And then that was like two and a half years of just building the show, getting the deal done and facing the myriad of challenges. But yeah, sometimes it just starts with the text message.Paul Marden: So they get to experience all the key parts of the TV.Neil Connolly: All the key beats. Like right now, I'm holding one of the slates. They're not chalkboard slates. Again, this is... Oh, actually, this is a good challenge. So in the TV show, they've got a piece of slate and they write on it with a chalkboard pen. This seems so innocuous and I can't believe I'm talking about this on a podcast.Neil Connolly: Slategate was like six months of my life. Not in its entirety, but it was a six month long conversation about how we do the slates correctly. Because we do... 48 shows a day, six days a week. And those slates will crack. They will bash. And they're kind of a bit health and safety standards. I was like, can't have them. Also, they write on them with chalk pens, white ink chalk pens. But in the TV show, you only do it once a night. Yeah.Paul Marden: And then you have a producer and a runner.Neil Connolly: They just clean them very, very leisurely and set them back for the next day. And I was like, no, I've got to do a whole bunch of roundtable banishments in two hours. So we talked a lot about material, about style, literal viewership, because if you take a seat at the table. Yeah. If you're sitting at the table here, you'll notice that we've got a raised bit in the middle. If I turn mine around, the other person on the other side can't see it. So I was like, 'Okay, cool.' So we had to do a whole bunch of choreography. But also, the room's quite dark. Yes. At times, atmospheric. Yeah. In that magic triangle time-space atmosphere. So anything that was darker, or even that black slate, you just couldn't read it. And then there was, and then I had to— this is the level of detail that we have to go into when we're designing this kind of stuff. I was like, 'Yeah, but I can't clean off these slates with the white ink because everyone will have to have like a wet cloth chamois. Then I've just got loads of chamois around my venue that I just don't need.' And so then we're like, 'Oh, let's use real slates with real chalk.' And I was like, 'No, because dust will get everywhere.' I'll get chalk just all over my table. It'll just ruin everything. It'll ruin the technology that's inside the table because there's lots of hidden tricks inside of it. Paul Marden: Is there really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Neil Connolly: There's loads of hidden tricks inside the table. So after a while, going through many different permutations, I sat down with Christian Elenis, who's my set designer and my art director. And we were, the two of us were nearly in tears because we were like, 'We need,' and this only happened like.Neil Connolly: I would say two, three weeks before we opened. We still hadn't solved how to do the slate, which is a big thing in the show. Anybody who's seen the show and loves the show knows that they want to come in, they want to write somebody's name on the slate, and they want to spell the name incorrectly.Neil Connolly: Everyone does it on purpose. But I wanted to give people that opportunity. So then eventually we sat down and we were like, Christian, Neil. And the two of us in conversation went, why don't we just get a clear piece of Perspex, back it with a light coloured vinyl. And then Christian was like, 'Ooh,' and I'll make it nice and soft and put some felt on the back of it, which is what I'm holding. And then why don't we get a black pen? And we were like, 'Yeah,' like a whiteboard marker. And then we can just write on it. And then A, I can see it from the other side of the table. Thing one achieved. Two. Every marker pen's got an eraser on the top of it. I don't know why everyone thinks this is important, but it is. That you can just rub out like that, and I'm like, 'There's no dirt, there's no mess, and I can reuse this multiple times, like dozens of times in the same show.' And I know that sounds really weird, but that's the level of design I'm going to need.Paul Marden: I was just about to say, and that is just for the chalkboard. Yeah. Now you need to multiply that. How many decisions?Neil Connolly: How many decisions in each game. But also remember that there are eight round tables in this building. Each round table seats 14 people. And we do six sessions a day. So first ones at 10 a. m. Then we do 12, 2, 4, 6, and 8 p. m. So we do 48 shows a day, six days a week.Paul Marden: I love the concept that these are shows. This is not this is not visitor attraction. This is theater repeated multiple times a day for multi audience is concurrently.Neil Connolly: And I've just spent five minutes describing a slate to you. Yeah. But like, I haven't even got— it's like the sheer amount of technology that is in the show. And again, theatrical, like, look above our heads. Yeah. You've got this ring light above every seat. It's got a pin light. There's also microphones which are picking up all the audio in the room, which again is translating to the lounge of the dead. Every single one of the round table rooms has four CCTV cameras. Can you see that one in the corner? Each one of them is 4K resolution. It's quite high spec, which is aimed at the opposite side of the table to give you the resolution in the TV. In the other room. Then you've got these video contents. This is constantly displaying secret information through the course of the show to the traitors when they're in Conclave because everyone's in blindfolds and they took them off. They get secret instructions from that. There's also a live actor in the room. A live actor who is Claudia? They're not Claudia. They're not pastiches of Claudia. They are characters that we have created and they are the host of The Traitor's Game. Right. They only exist inside this building. We never have them portrayed outside of this building in any way whatsoever.Neil Connolly: They are characters, but they live, they breathe— the game of Traitors, the world of Traitors, and the building that we have designed and constructed here. And they facilitate the game for the people. And they facilitate the game for the people. One actor to 14 people. There are no plants, even though everyone tries to tell me. Members of the public will be convinced that they are the only person that's in that show and that everyone else is a plant. And I'm like, no, because that would be insane.Neil Connolly: The only actor in the room is the host.Paul Marden: 14 people that can sit around this table. How many of them are in the same group? Are you with your friends or is it put together where there are other people that you won't know in the room? If you book together, you play together.Neil Connolly: Yes. Okay, so if you don't book 14 people... Ah, we also capped the number of tickets that you can purchase to eight. Right. So you can only purchase a maximum of eight tickets unless you do want a full table of 14, at which point you have to then purchase a VIP package because you are booking out a whole table for yourselves. The game doesn't work if there's less than 10 people at the table. So there has to be 10, 11, 12, 13 or 14 people sat at a round table for the show to actually happen, for it to work. By capping the number of tickets that you book for eight, then that guarantees that strangers will be playing together. And that is the basis of strangers. Yeah, yeah. Like, you need to be sat around a table with people you know, you don't know, that you trust and you don't trust. Yeah. Fact of the matter. And do you see people turning on the others in their own group? Every single time. People think genuinely, and I love this from the public, you would think that if you're turning up as a group of eight and a group of four and a group of two, that the bigger group would just pick everybody off to make sure that someone in their group gets through to the end game.Neil Connolly: I'm sure they think that and they probably plot and plan that before they arrive on site. As soon as this game starts, gloves are off and everyone just starts going for each other. We've been open nearly two months now. I have seen, like, children murdered of their mothers.Neil Connolly: Husbands murder their wives, wives murder their husbands. I've seen, like, three generations—like, we get, because it's so intergenerational, like our lowest, the lowest age that you can play this is 12. Right. And then it's upwards. I've seen three generations of family come in and I've seen grandkids murder their own nan.Neil Connolly: Absolutely convinced that they're a traitor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Or they banish them. Like, it's just mental. I've also seen nans, who are traitors, murder their grandkids.Neil Connolly: Like, and this is in a room full of strangers. They're just like, 'No, I'm not going to go for Barbara, who I met two hours ago in the bar. I'm going to go for my own grandson. It's mental.'Neil Connolly: The very, very first thing that I always think about whenever I'm creating an experience or whenever I'm designing a show is I put myself in the position of 'I'm a member of the public.' I have bought a ticketNeil Connolly: What's the coolest thing that I am going to do for my money? What is my perceived value of my ticket over actually what is the value of that ticket? I wanted to give people the experience of knowing what it was like to be sitting in one of these chairs at this table and feeling their heart. The pounding in their chest and I mean, the pounding in their chest, that rush of adrenaline from doing nothing— from sitting in a chair and all you were doing was sitting in a room talking to people and your heart is going.Neil Connolly: Because you're either being accused of being a liar. And trying to defend against it. And trying to defend against it. Or you actually are lying and you're trying to whittle your way out of it. And that feeling is the most alive that you will ever feel. Not ever. Like, I'm sure they're... No, no, no. But, like, give people that opportunity and that experience, as well as, like, access to the world of traitors and the law and everything else. But also, it's like any other theme park ride. People go on roller coasters because the imminent fear of death is always there. Yeah. And you feel alive. You're like, you've got such a buzz of adrenaline. Whereas, arguably, we do exactly the same thing as roller coasters, but in a much more longer-drawn format and multiple times. Yeah. And people do feel alive. When people walk out of the show, you see them go upstairs to the bar, and they are... Yeah.Paul Marden: You've said to me already that you don't use the word 'immersive,' but you know, I'm, I'm, I'm sat. The company is called 'immersive' everywhere. I'm sat behind the scenes. Okay. I'm sat in the room and the room is hugely convincing. It's like the highest fidelity escape room type experience that I've ever sat in. It feels like I'm on set, yeah, yeah. Um, I can totally believe that, in those two hours, you can slip. I sat on a game. It was only a two-minute game at iApple, but I was being filmed by one of the team. But within 30 seconds, I'd forgotten that they were there because I was completely immersed in the game. I can believe that, sitting in here right now, you could forget where you were and what you were doing, that you were completely submerged in the reality of the land that you're in.Neil Connolly: Yeah, 100%. Like, the world does not exist beyond these worlds. And for some people, like, I have my own definition. Everyone's got a different definition of what immersive is. I've got my own definition. But... I can tell you right now, as soon as people enter this building, they're in the bar, they're kind of slowly immersed in that world because the bar is a themed bar. It's done to the same, like we designed and built that bar as well. But as soon as they start descending that spiral staircase and coming into the gameplay floors, into the show floors, they just forget the rest of the world exists. And especially when they sit down at this table, it doesn't matter. I'm sat next to you here, but you could be sat at this table with your loved one, strangers, whatever. The gloves come off and just nothing exists apart from the game that you're about to go through.Paul Marden: You've been open now for a couple of months. More success than you were anticipating, I think. So pre-sales went through the roof? Yes. So you're very happy with the results?Neil Connolly: Yeah, yeah, we were. Yeah, well, we still are.Neil Connolly: We were very confident before we'd even started building the show, like the literal structural build, because we did very well. But then that set expectations quite high because I had a lot of people that had bought tickets and I was like, 'OK, I need to put on a good show for these people. And I need to make sure that they get satisfaction relative to the tickets that they bought.' But I don't feel pressure. I do feel anxiety quite a lot. Creatively? Yeah. I mean, I meditate every day.Paul Marden: But you've created this amazing world and you're inviting people into it. And as a creative, you're opening yourself up, aren't you? People are walking into the world that you've created.Neil Connolly: Yeah, this was said to me. This is not something that I came up with myself, and I do say this really humbly, but it was something that was said to me. It was on opening day, and a bunch of my friends came to playtest the show. And they were like, 'Oh, this is your brain in a building.'Neil Connolly: And I was like, 'Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.' But yeah, it is my brain in a building. But also that's terrifying, I think, for everybody else, because I know what happens inside my brain and it's really quite chaotic.Neil Connolly: But, you know, this I am. I'm so proud of this show. Like you could not believe how proud I am of this show. But also a huge part of my job is to find people that are smarter than me at the relative thing that they do, such as the rest of my creative team. They're all so much smarter than me. My job is vision and to be able to communicate that vision clearly and effectively so that they go, 'I understand.' The amount of times that people on the creative team turn around to me and go, 'Neil, that's a completely mental idea.' If people are saying to me, 'No one's ever done that before' or 'that's not the way things are done.'Neil Connolly: Or we can do that, but we're going to have to probably invent a whole new thing. If people are saying those things to me, I know I'm doing my job correctly. And I'm not doing that to challenge myself, but everything that I approach in terms of how I build shows is not about format. It's not about blueprints. It's not like, 'Hey, I've done this before, so I'm just going to do this again because I know that's a really neat trick.' I go back to, 'I made the show because I wanted people's heart to pound in their chest while they're sitting in a chair and make them feel alive.'Paul Marden: Is that the vision that you had in your head? So you're articulating that really, really clearly. Is that the vision that you sold to everybody on, not maybe day one, but within a couple of days of talking about this? No, it was day one.Neil Connolly: It was day one. Everyone went, that's a completely mental idea. But, you know, it's my job to try and communicate that as effectively and clearly as I can. But again, I am just one man. My job is vision. And, you know, there's lighting design, sound design, art direction, there's game logic. We haven't even gotten to the technology of how this show works yet, or how this room works.Neil Connolly: Actually, I'll wander down the corner. Yeah, let's do that. But, like, there's other, like, lots of hidden tricks. Like, this is one of the games, one of the missions. In the world and the lore of the show, the round table is sacrosanct.Paul Marden: Yes.Neil Connolly: Traitors is the game. The game is in other people. I can do so many missions and there's loads of missions and they're really fun in this show. But the game is in other people. It's in the people sat on the other side of the room. But also I wanted to do a thing where people could interact directly with the set. And so I designed one of the missions to be in the round table itself.Neil Connolly: So there's a course of these moon dials, which you basically have to align through the course of it. And there are sensors built into the table so that they know when they're in the correct position. How you find out the correct position is by solving a very, very simple puzzle and then communicating effectively to a bunch of strangers that you just met.Neil Connolly: And the sensors basically read it all. And when that all gets into position, the lights react, the sound reacts, the video content reacts, the whole room reacts to you. So I wanted to give people something tangible that they can touch and they make the room react to them. Yes, it's. I mean, I've designed, I've got background in escape rooms as well, right? Um, so I've done a lot of that kind of stuff as well. So I wanted people to feel in touch, same, but like, there's more tangible props over here. Um, yeah, that is a model box of the room that we are stood in, yeah. Also, there's an exact replica of it on the other side of it. There are very subtle differences between it, and that informs one of the missions. So that is two model boxes in this roundtable room. There's one of these in every single roundtable room. So there's 16 model boxes of the show that you're stood in on the set. And again, theatre. It's a show. But it's one of the missions, because I wanted people to kind of go, 'Oh, there's a live actor in front of me.' I'm having fun. Oh, look at all these lights and all the sound. Oh, there's a model box over here. That's in theatre land and blah, blah, blah. But that is also a really expensive joke. It's a really expensive joke. And there's other, like, lots of hidden tricks.Neil Connolly: Let's go look at backstage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.Neil Connolly: I say backstage, like how we refer to it or how I always go. I use 'I' and 'we' very interchangeably. Like right now you're on the set. Like you're on the stage. Yes. We're just wandering around a long corridor. There are round table rooms off to either side. But like, you know, there's a green room upstairs where the actors get changed, where the front of house team are, where the bar team all are. But as soon as they go out onto the show floor, they're on stage—yes, completely. We'll very quickly have a look at the gallery—yes, show control. Hi, Robbo. Do you mind if I stand in your room for the purposes of the audio? I'm talking to the technical manager, Thomas Robson. We're recording a podcast.Paul Marden: Robbo, oh yeah, okay. My mind is absolutely blown. So you've got every single room up on screen.Neil Connolly: Yeah, so that's great. There's 164 cameras—something like that. But every roundtable room has four cameras in it. Each camera is 4K resolution. So we've got cameras on all of them. We've got audio into those rooms. That's two-way, so that if show control needs to talk directly to them, they just press a button here and they can talk directly to the room itself. Mainly just like, stop misbehaving, we're watching you.Neil Connolly: We've then got cameras into all of the lounges, all of the show spaces, all the front of house, all of the bar areas, the mezzanine and back of house. And then you've got QLab running across all of the different shows. We've got backups on all of these screens. So if one... of the computers goes down, we can very quickly swap it in for a backup that's already running. We've got show control, which is, there's a company called Clockwork Dog, who, they're an amazing company. What COGS, their show control system, is doing is pulling in all of the QLab from sound, all of the QLab from lighting, and also we built our own app. to be able to run the show. So there's a whole logic and decision tree based on the decisions that the public do through the course of the game. So yes, there is a beginning, a middle, and an end in terms of our narrative beats and the narrative story of the show that we're telling people. But also that narrative can go in. Hundreds of different directions depending on the actions and the gameplay that the people do during the course of the show. So, you haven't just learned one show— you have to learn like You have to learn a world, and you have to learn a whole game.Neil Connolly: Like, there's the server, stacks, which we had to build. You had to network and cable the entire building. So we have built an entire new attraction, which didn't exist before. And also we're pulling in information from the front of house system which is also going into the show itself because again, you put your name into the iPad when you arrive on site and then you tick a box very crucially to say, 'Do you want to be selected as a trader? Yes or No.' Because in the game, it's a fundamental rule. If you say no, you cannot be selected as a traitor by the host during traitor selection. That doesn't mean you can't be recruited.Paul Marden: By the traitors later on in the game. So you could come and do this multiple times and not experience the same story because there were so many different pathways that you could go down.Neil Connolly: But also, the game is in other people. Yes. The show is sat on the opposite side of the table to you because, like, Bob and Sandra don't know each other. They'll never see each other ever again. But Bob comes again and he's now playing against Laura. Who's Laura? She's an unknown quantity. That's a whole new game. That's a whole new show. There's a whole new dynamic. That's a whole new storyline that you have to develop. And so the actors are doing an incredible job of managing all of that.Paul Marden: Thanks, Robbo. Thank you. So you've worked with some really, really impressive leading IP, Traders, Peppa Pig, Doctor Who, Great Gatsby. What challenges do you face taking things from screen to the live experience?Paul Marden: Challenges do I face? We're wandering here.Neil Connolly: So we are in... Oh, we're in the tower.Neil Connolly: Excellent. Yep, so we're now in Traitor's Tower. Good time for you to ask me the question, what challenges do I face? Things like this. We're now stood in Traitor's Tower. Paul, let me ask you the question. Without the show lights being on, so we're just stood on a set under workers, what's your opinion of the room that we're stood in?Paul Marden: Oh, it's hugely impressive. It feels like, apart from the fact you've punched the fourth wall out of the telly, it does feel like you're on set.Neil Connolly: It's a really faithful reproduction of the set. So that's kind of one of the challenges is managing the public's expectations of what they see, do and feel on site. So that I don't change the show so that people come and play the game that they're expecting to play. But making reasonable adjustments within that, because TV and live are two very, very different things. So first and foremost was making sure that we get the format right. So the game that people play, which informs the narrative of the show and the narrative structure of the show. Breakfast, mission, round table, conclave. Breakfast, mission, round table, conclave. I've designed a whole bunch of new missions that are in this, taken some inspiration from missions that people know and love from the TV shows, whether that's the UK territory or other territories around the world. And also just other stuff is just clear out of my head. So there's original content in there. paying homage and respect to the world that they've built and allowing ourselves to also play and develop and build out that world at the same time. Other challenges.Neil Connolly: This is not a cheap project. No, no. I mean, the production quality of this is beautiful. Yeah, yeah, thank you. It is stunning. When people walk in here, they're like, 'Oh my God, this is... High end.' I am in a luxury event at a very affordable price.Paul Marden: Thank you. And then we're going back upstairs again. Yes. And in the stairwell, we've got the crossed out photos of all of those that have fallen before us.Neil Connolly: No, not quite. All of the people that are in this corridor, there's about 100 photos. These are all the people who built the show.Neil Connolly: So this is David Gregory. He's the sound designer. This is Kitty, who is Immersive Everywhere's office manager. She also works in ticketing. That is Tallulah and Alba, who work in the art department. Elliot, who's our lighting designer. So all of these people are the people who brought the show to life.Paul Marden: Amazing.Neil Connolly: And we wanted to pay homage to them because some of them gave years of their lives to building the show from literally the inception that I had in 2023. Through to now and others are the people who literally spent months of their life underground in these basements building hand-building this set and so we wanted to pay homage to them so we got all of their photos we did the iconic red cross through it yeah and we stuck them all up in the corridor just because we thought it'd be a nice thing to do.Paul Marden: You're in the business of trading and experiences and that ranges from art exhibitions to touring shows. There's always going to be a challenge of balancing innovation and profitability. What is the formula? What is the magic formula?Neil Connolly: I believe, first and foremost, going back to what I was telling you earlier about us being a collaborative organisation. We are not a creative crack that has been used for the show. We are also the producers of the show. And to make my point again, I'm a commercially minded creative. So I actually sit down with the producers and go, 'Okay, cool.' There are 112 seats in the show.Paul Marden: Yep.Neil Connolly: Therefore, how many shows do we need to do per day? How many shows do we need to do per week? How many shows do we need to do per year? Therefore, let's build out a P &L. And we build a whole business plan based around that.Paul Marden: By having everybody— that you need in the team— makes it much easier to talk about that sort of stuff. It makes it much easier for you to design things with the end result in mind. You don't have a creative in a creative agency going off— feeding their creative wants without really thinking about the practicalities of delivering on it.Neil Connolly: Exactly. So you've got to think like, literally, from the very, very beginning: you've got to think about guest flow. You've got to think about throughput. You've got to think about your capacities. Then you've got to basically build out a budget that you think— how much, hey, how much really is this going to cost? Yeah. Then you build out an entire business plan and then you go and start raising the money to try and put that on. And then you find a venue. I mean, like the other magic triangle, like the traitor's magic triangle is, you know, time, space, atmosphere. That's how you do a show. Like with my producer's hat on, the other magic triangle is show, money, venue.Neil Connolly: The truth of the matter, like I make no bones about it, I can design shows till the cows come home, but I'm always going to need money to put them on and a venue to put them in. Also, I want to stress this really important. I use the words 'I' and 'we' very interchangeably.Paul Marden: It's a team effort.Neil Connolly: You can see that in that corridor. I am not a one-man band. I am the creative director of a company. I am a cog that is in that machine, and everybody is doing... We are, as a team... I cannot stress this enough. Some of the best in the business are doing what we do. And everyone is so wildly talented. And that's just us on the producing side. That's immersive everywhere, limited. Then I've got a whole other creative team. Then we've got operations. Then we've got... It's just mad. It's just mad, isn't it? This is a job. Who would have thought, when you were at school, this was an opportunity? Not my principal or my maths teacher.Neil Connolly: So, sorry, just to balance the kind of economies of scale. That was the question, wasn't it?Paul Marden: Well, we were talking about what is the formula for making that an investment, but you know, the authority here is the effort you've put in to do this feels high, but at the same time, you have to find this thing. There is a lot of investment that goes into the front.Neil Connolly: But that comes back to creatives. Caring and I'm not saying the creatives don't, but I care. I care about building businesses. Yeah, not necessarily like building my own CV, like there's so many projects that across our desks. I'll be like, 'Yeah, that'd be really fun to work on.' But do I think that I can make that a touring product? Can it be a long-running location-based entertainment sit-down product? Can it be an art shop? Like you've kind of got a balance with what do you think is just creatively cool versus what can we do as a company that is a commercially viable and financially stable product? And so all that comes through in terms of the creative, but also in terms of the activities of how we run the building, how this model realizes. Because if you think about it, let's make Phantom of the Opera run in the West End. Yes. The show is very obvious, with many casts on a room, away, fruit team away, terrace, it's a big activity. If they haven't sold half that away, they have to use the whole show and play all those people.Neil Connolly: But if they haven't sold half that away from one of my shows... I only have to activate four of my rooms, not eight of them. Therefore, I don't have to call in four actors. I don't have to call in a bunch of the other front of house team and I can scale in the operations on the back. It's an entirely scalable process. Flexible, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, 100%. But also, like, we've got eight rooms here. If we decide to take this to another territory, and that territory demands a much higher throughput, then instead of eight rooms, I can do 20 rooms, 30 rooms. As long as we know that the market is there to be able to kind of get people through it.Neil Connolly: I love this show and I'm so proud of it. The main reason why I'm proud of it is when the show finishes, let's go into one of the lounges. Have you been into one of the lounges?Paul Marden: I've had a nose around a lounge.Neil Connolly: There are different shapes and sizes. We won't go into that one. We'll go into this one down here. That one, that one. It's always such a buzz when you're stood in the bar and the shows kick out, and you see tables and tables of 14 people going up into the bar.Neil Connolly: Area and before they've even gotten a drink, they will run straight over to their friends, families, strangers, whoever they were playing with in that table of 14, and instantly be like, 'Right, I need to know everything that was going on inside your head, your heart, and your soul over the last two hours of my life because this was my experience.'Neil Connolly: And they'll just go, and they'll be like, 'And this is what I was thinking.' And then I thought it was you because you did this and you touched your nose in a weird way. And then I thought you were sending secret signals. And then everyone's like, 'No, that's not what I was doing.' I was just trying to be a normal person. And they were like, 'Well, why did you say that thing?' It sounded super weird. And they're like, 'That's just what I do.' And it's just totally mental. And then they all get a drink from the bar. And we call it the bar tab chat.Neil Connolly: It's another revenue stream.Neil Connolly: I do talk about this like it's a show. And it is a show. You've walked around, do you think it's a show? Completely. I talk to established houses all the time. Like, you know, the big theatres of the land. Organisations that are national portfolio organisations who receive a lot of Arts Council funding. The thing that they want to talk to us about all the time is new audiences. They're like, 'How do I get new audiences through my door?' What can I do? And I'm like, 'Well, firstly, make a show that people want to go and see.'Neil Connolly: Again, they're like, 'But I've got this amazing writer and he's a really big name and everyone's going to come because it's that name.' And I'm like, 'Yeah, that's wicked. That's cool.' And they can all go pay reverence to that person. That's really wonderful. Whereas when you look at the attractions landscape or the immersive theatre landscape or like anything like... Squid Game, or The Elvis, Evolution, or War of the Worlds, which has also laid reality, or any of that kind of stuff, across the landscape, it is nothing but new audiences. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is nothing but actual ticket-buying audiences.Neil Connolly: And they come from all different walks of life. And what I love is that they do come in to this experience and we hit them with this like secret theatre.Neil Connolly: And they're like, 'Oh my God.' And often it's a gateway to them being like, 'Oh, I didn't realise that.' Maybe I'll go see a Western show or maybe I will go to the National Theatre and see something. Because that's the level of archery. Because those organisations, I love them and I've worked in a few of them, but those buildings can be quite austere, even though they're open and porous, but it's still very difficult to walk through that threshold and feel a part of it.Paul Marden: Whereas coming in here, coming into an event like this, can feel like a thing that they do.Neil Connolly: Because it's the same demographic as theme park junkies. People who love going to theme parks love going to stuff like this because it's an experience, it's an otherness, it's an other nature kind of thing. Because modern audiences want to play and do, not sit and watch. But we all exist in the kind of same ecosystem. I'm not taking on the National Theatre.Paul Marden: Gosh, no. I always talk about that. I think the reason why so many attractions work together in the collaborative way that they do is they recognise that they're not competing with each other. They're competing with sitting on your backside and watching Netflix.Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah.Paul Marden: Our job for all of us is to drag people away from their screens and drag people off of their sofas to do something. And then that's the biggest challenge that we all face.Neil Connolly: I think then that kind of answers the question that you asked me earlier, which I didn't answer. And I'm very sorry.Neil Connolly: is about identifying different pieces of IP. Like, yes, we largely exist in the world of licensing IP. And how do we identify that kind of IP to be able to translate? Not just how do we do it, but like, actually, how do we identify the right thing that's going to... How do you spot the winner? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that is one of the biggest challenges to your point of we're talking directly to people who consume arts, culture and media and technology in a slightly more passive way, whether that's just at home and watching Netflix and then bringing that to life. In a very, very different way. If you have a very clear marketing campaign that tells people what it is that they're buying and what they're expected to see or do on their particular night out, because that's what modern people really care about, what they do with their money. Yeah. And they want to have a good night out. And I'm in the business of giving people a good night out. We also happen to be murdering a lot of people in the course of the show.Neil Connolly: Still a good night out. Still a good night out. But I'm in a place where the dead sit. Yeah, exactly. Lounge of the dead. And like, you know, this is a really cool space. Oh, it's just beautiful. You know, we've got the telephone really works. There's lots of information that comes through that. The radio works, that does different things. The TV screen on the wall, that has the actual live feed into the round table room that you've just left. And there's other little puzzles and hints and tricks in this room, which means that after you've been murdered or banished and you come to the Lounge of the Dead, you're still engaged with the game to a degree. You just don't directly influence the outcome of the game. But you're still involved in it. You're still involved in it. It's super fun. Oh, and you can have a drink in here.Paul Marden: I don't let people drink in the round table. Even more important. What's this?Neil Connolly: The dolls, the creepy dolls. What this is, this is the void. Creatively speaking, this is where all the gold goes when people win or lose it. And the creepy dolls are from the TV show. Ydyn nhw'r un gwirioneddol o'r sioe? Felly, gafodd studio Lambert, sy'n gwneud y sioe tebyg, llawer o brops o'r sioe tebyg i ni eu rhoi ar y ddispleiddio yma. Felly, mae gennych chi'r Dolls Creepy o'r lles 3 yno. Rydyn ni'n mynd i fyny. Yn ôl yma, mae'r peintiwch Deathmatch.Paul Marden: Which is from season three.Neil Connolly: And they get the quill and they write the names and got the quill upstairs. We've also got over here, the cards that they used to play the death match with. Excellent.Paul Marden: So you began your career in theatre. How did that evolve into the world of immersive live experiences?Neil Connolly: Life story. I am the son of a postman and a cook. And if you haven't noticed already, I'm from Ireland. There was no theatre in our lives, my life, when I was growing up. And I stumbled into a youth theatre. It's called Kildare Youth Theatre. And the reason why I joined that is because there was a girl that I really fancied.Neil Connolly: She had just joined this youth theatre and I was like, 'Oh, I'm gonna join that as well' and that kind of opened the world of theatre for me. At the same time, I then got spotted by this guy, his name's Vijay Baton, his real name's Om, but he converted to Hare Krishnanism in the 90s. And he set up a street theatre company in Ireland. He just taught me street theatre. So he taught me stilt walk, he taught me juggling, he taught me how to build puppets. And so I spent years building puppets with him and going around Ireland doing lots of different street theatre while I was a teenager. And doing street theatre and doing my youth theatre and then kind of all of that kind of came to a head when I had to decide what I was going to do with my life. I applied to go to drama school. And I applied to two drama schools. One was Radha. Didn't get in. Didn't even get an audition. And the other one was Rose Bruford. And they took me. And the reason why they took me— I probably wasn't even that good. But on the day that I was auditioning to get into Rose Bruford was the same day as my maths exam for my final exams at school. You call them your A-levels, we call them the leaving certificate.Neil Connolly: And while all of my friends were back in Ireland doing their maths exam, I was in an audition room pretending to be a tree or the colour black.Neil Connolly: Who knows? And they kind of went, 'Well, if I fail my maths exam, I don't get into university in Ireland.' Like, it's just a blanket thing. And so I was like, 'I literally sat across the panel' and I was like, 'eggs, basket.' And they were like, 'cool.' So they let me in based off of that. So I got a classical training. Then what happened is I came out of university. I was living with two of my friends, Natalie and Joe. And we had our own little production company called The Lab Collective. And we just started making shows. In weird ways, we joined a company called Theatre Delicatessen. Let's get away from this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Neil Connolly: So Theatre Deli was a company set up to take over disused spaces in London and convert them into art spaces.Neil Connolly: Basically legalised squatting. It's the same as like a guardianship. But we weren't living in the buildings. We were just putting on shows and we put on art shows, we put on theatre shows. We did Shakespeare for a while. We wrote our own work and we just did lots of really, really cool stuff. And I worked in music festivals, classically trained actor. So I was trying to do shows. I did a lot of devising. I also joined an improvisation group. And kind of through all that mix, like those years at Delhi, which was making these weird shows in these weird buildings, were very, very formative years for us. The Arts Council wouldn't support the kind of work that we were making. We were like, 'Cool, how do we get space?Neil Connolly: How do we get or make money to support ourselves? And what are the shows? There's the magic triangle all over again. Space, show, money. And that's your apprenticeship, I guess, that brings you to here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, again, I make no bones about it. 10 years ago, I was selling programs on the door of the Royal Festival Hall while doing all of that stuff. So in one of the Theatre Daily buildings, we did a show called Heist, which is you break into a building and steal stuff. That's what the public do.Neil Connolly: And a bunch of us did that. I mean, it's so much fun— kind of doing it. And off the back of that, somebody else basically tried to chase down the crystal maze. And then they went away, and then they called me up and they were like, 'Hey, I've got the rights. Do you want to make the crystal maze?' And I was like, 'Yeah, sounds like fun.' So I got involved with that, did that for a while. And then, from there, this is the end of a very long story. I'm so apologised. Yeah, from there, all of those different things that I've done through the course of my life in terms of operations, designing experiences, being a creative, understanding business.Neil Connolly: Building a P&L, building a budget, talking to investors, trying to convince them to give you money. All of that stuff kind of basically came together. And over the last few years, like the wildest ride is that pre-2020.Neil Connolly: We were just a bunch of people doing a bunch of weird things, making weird shows and weird attractions in kind of different ways. And then that year happened. And I don't know what happened, but literally every single major studio, film, TV production, game designer, licensor in the world, suddenly just went— brand extensions, world extensions, and they all just started calling us. And they were like, 'Hi, I've got this thing.' Can you develop it into a thing? Because I need to extend my brand or I want to build a world and extend that for the public. And we were like, 'Yeah, okay, cool.' And we were just lucky, serendipitously, to be in the right place at the right time. To be those people that people can approach. And we're always, we're very approachable.Neil Connolly: As you can tell, I talk a lot. And, you know, so the last five years, it's just been a mad ride.Paul Marden: So look, Neil, it's been amazing. I have had the most fun. Last question for you. What's next? Are you putting your feet up now because you finished this? Or on to the next? Neil Connolly: Very much on to the next thing. So we're already in production with our new show, which is called Peppa Pig Surprise Party. And that is opening at the Metro Centre in Gateshead next year. Oh, how exciting is that? It's very exciting.Paul Marden: So quite a different demographic.Neil Connolly: The demographic for Peppa Pig is two to five year olds. It's been a really fun show to design and create. To go back to a question that you asked me very early on, there is no blueprint, there is no format. I have embraced the chaos tattooed on my arm. And always when I approach things, any new show or any new creative, I am thinking of it from a ticket buying perspective: 'I have paid my money.' What is the coolest thing that I can possibly do with that money? And so therefore, I'm now looking at families and, like, what's the coolest thing that they can do for that ticket price in the world of Peppa Pig?Paul Marden: Let's come back in the new year, once you've opened Peppa Pig, let's go to Gateshead and see that. That sounds pretty awesome to me. I reckon there's a whole new episode of Designing Worlds for two to five-year-olds that we could fill an hour on.Neil Connolly: Oh yeah, 100%. It's a totally different beast. And super fun to design.Paul Marden: Oh mate. Neil, it has been so wonderful having a wander around the inside of your crazy mind.Paul Marden: If you've enjoyed today's episode, please like it and leave a comment in your podcast app. It really does make it so much easier for other people to find us. This episode was written by Emily Burrows from Plaster, edited by Steve Folland, and produced by Sami Entwistle from Plaster and Wenalyn Dionaldo. Thanks very much. See you next week.  The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from photographer Victoria Phipps. She says:“Hi Frankie and Steve!I'm a photographer specialising in analogue family photography (as in film, from the olden days when we were the kids!)… maternity, newborns, families etc.I've been in business for 15 years and have often struggled with the concept of “speculate to accumulate” when it comes to business growth. Or in the case of freelancers — personal growth!Do you subscribe to this theory? Obviously as freelancers we don't often have the big budgets that larger corporations have to play with, so decisions around investing in further professional education, coaching, fancier equipment etc. take a bit of thinking about. It's sometimes hard to know what will ‘move the needle' in your business.Do you have a set of rules you apply when making decisions like this or do you follow your gut?  Do you have any examples of times when the outcome of an investment in your own business growth has made it worthwhile? Or times when you've got it totally wrong and thrown your money down the drain?!Victoria”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Victoria Phipps' websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

It's Day 3 of IAAPA Expo Europe, and this episode of Skip the Queue brings you insights from industry leaders. Hear from Andreas Andersen (Liseberg), Peter van der Schans (IAAPA EMEA), Laura Read (Marwell Zoo), Aaron Wilson (ProSlide), and Robbi Jones (Katapult) on resilience, creativity, and the future of attractions.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  https://www.liseberg.se/en/https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreas-veilstrup-andersen/Andreas Veilstrup Andersen is the CEO and President of the Liseberg Group, Sweden – operating one of Scandinavia's most visited amusement parks. Andreas has a legal and financial background and has been working in the amusement park industry since 2000.  First in several capacities at Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen, Denmark, later as Vice President of European operations at IAAPA EMEA in Brussels, Belgium. Andreas was the 2018 Chairman of IAAPA. He currently holds board positions at Farup Sommerland and Alsik Hotel in Denmark, as well as Momentum Leisure and Leo's Lekland, Europe's largest chain of FEC's. Andreas is heading up IAAPA's sustainability initiatives, and occasionally blogs on https://reflections.liseberg.se/.Plus, live from the Day 3 of the IAAPA Expo Europe show floor, we catch up with:Aaron Wilson - Vice President, Business Development Europe & Latin America, Proslide Technologyhttps://www.proslide.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronlouiswilson/Robbie Jones - Insights Director, Katapaulthttps://www.katapult.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrrobbiejones/Peter van der Schans - Executive Director & Vice President, IAAPA EMEAhttps://iaapa.org/expos-and-events/expo-europehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-van-der-schans-87715717/Laura Read - Chief Executive, Marwell Zoohttps://www.marwell.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-read-she-her-98110726/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best attractions and the amazing people that work in them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and together with my co-host, Andy Povey, and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're here at day 3 of IAAPA Expo Europe. On today's show, Andy talks to Andreas Andersen, CEO and President of iseberg Group, about resilience. I meet Peter van der Schans from IAAPA EMEA, and we catch up with Laura Read from Marwell Zoo. First, let's go over to Andy.Andy Povey: So I'm joined now by Andreas Andersen, who's the chief exec of Liseberg, Scandinavia's most visited amusement park. Andreas, welcome to Barcelona. It's very good to see you here. Can you tell the listeners at home a little bit about Liseberg and what you do there?Andreas Andersen:  Sure. So I'm heading up one of the classic regional city-based parks in Northern Europe. So you have Liseberg, you have Tivoli in Copenhagen, you have Kornalund in Stockholm, and Linnanmaki in Helsinki. And we're part of this tradition of parks that have a very strong community base and a long history. Liseberg is 102 years old and three years old. And also parks that represent cultural heritage as well as reflect the cities we're located in. Lovely, lovely regional park in downtown Gothenburg. And if you haven't been, you should come visit.Andy Povey: Absolutely. I must admit, I haven't made it there myself yet. It's on the bucket list. So our theme for today's recording is about recovery and resilience. And recently, in your blog address, you wrote that you feel like for the past four years, you've been in constant crisis mode. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Andreas Andersen: Well, I think a lot of executives or just people working in this industry can recognise that the last four or five years have been very turbulent, very, very, very volatile.Andreas Andersen: It all started with the pandemic in March 2020, we were at Lisa closed down for 17 months, so we didn't have any any business at all for for 17 months. Then we reopened in the middle of '21, very very hard— you know, with a lot of restrictions and an organisation that had not been you know operating anything for a long time and we also had to let go a lot of people. Then in '22, I think everybody experienced this giant rush, you know, that everybody wanted to get back into the park. So we couldn't really keep up with demand. And that was stressful in a different way. In '23, the market in the Nordics really suffered for some reason. It was a wit, summer and inflation, and interest rates.Andreas Andersen: And everything that went with, you could say, sort of the beginning of an economic downturn. And then, in 2024, our biggest investment, our biggest project expansion in the last 100 years, a large new indoor water park burned down. So it feels like these four or five years has really been this chain of crisis that we've had to get over and manage, basically.Andy Povey: Yeah, I mean, what we're hearing from people on the show floor is that the economic and political unrest that we have all over the Western world is creating some turbulence in the market. So talk to us a little bit more about the fire at Oceania. What happened?Andreas Andersen: We had been building the water park for almost three years, and we were six, seven weeks away from handover. It was some of the last works on the right installation that went wrong. It was a plastic welding that overheated, and these things happen, as you know.Andreas Andersen: Unfortunately, we lost a colleague in the fire and that was basically, you could say, that overshadowed, I would say, everything, especially in the first weeks. Andreas Andersen: That was devastating to all of us and obviously, especially his family. But soon after, we also had to make some decisions. You know, did we want to rebuild? How did we want to rebuild? At what pace? How would we finance? etc. etc. So you also very quickly move into the next phase of a crisis management and that is recovery. And we've been in that phase ever since. Andy Povey: Interesting. It's a devastating situation. I mean, your concern obviously has to be for the team and the people involved— not just those affected directly, but everybody on the floor who feels an emotional impact from this situation. So what tips would you give, as a leader, going through a situation like that, to anyone else listening who may be facing their own challenges?Andreas Andersen:  Well, I think I learned a lot during those weeks and months. And I think I learned that in a crisis, especially of this magnitude, everything becomes very naked. Everything becomes very raw. And you cannot really play a role as a leader. You have to be yourself. You have to be authentic. And it's okay to also show emotions and be caught up in this process of figuring out what to do with the project and the team and yourself when you meet challenges of this severity. Andreas Andersen:  So I would say be yourself, but also recognise that I always say that leadership in a crisis is a little bit like your biggest asset is the confidence that people have in you. And that confidence is something you build up over years. It's a little bit like a bank account that you can then draw on when the crisis hits. But you really have to make sure that you have something on that bank account. You can't borrow confidence. It's not up for loan. So you really, you know, crisis management, from a leadership perspective, actually starts a lot earlier than the crisis. It's about, you know, building a team that works well together, that trusts you and has confidence in you. And then, when the crisis hits, you know, you can draw on that trust, draw on that confidence. So I think that's two of the learnings that I had during this process.Andy Povey: I love the idea of the bank that you can draw on. We're making deposits in our bank every day, not just as a commercial leadership level, but a personal level as well. You need to have that resilience built in yourself. A lovely analogy. And I really love the idea of authenticity. So, if we move on now to talking a little bit more about what we do in an attraction, I think authenticity plays a really big part in that. So, how important is it for you to keep innovating at Liseberg?Andreas Andersen: It's super important because we are in a regional market. I mean, if you look at how our guests are composed, you know, we have 90% Swedish people and then 10%, maybe 12% in a good year from other, especially Nordic countries. But the majority are Swedish and about 60% of our total volume is actually from the local market. And if you want to attract the local market and you want to drive revisitation, Gothenburg is a large city, but it's not a huge city. You have to keep the product fresh. You have to reinvest, reinvent, and constantly adapt. And I think that's actually... part of the, you could say, the formula for these Nordic city-based parks that we've actually had to all reinvent, you know, throughout our history. I mean, Tivoli, that was founded in 1843, it was built by this crazy entrepreneur called Geo Carstensen.Andreas Andersen: And when Tivoli opened on the 15th of August, it was late, it was over budget, and it was not quite finished. And he got a question from a journalist, you know, asking him, you know, when will Tivoli be finished? And his response was, 'Never.' Tivoli will never be finished. And I think, you know, it's almost 200 years ago that he said this, but I think it encompasses sort of the real DNA of our industry that we have to constantly evolve with our guests and reinvent ourselves. And I think, again, that the city, the Nordic city-based parks have really been quite good at that.Andy Povey: Obviously, I mean, Liseberg with 100 years, Tivoli with almost 200 years. There's something good there. You're doing something right. So more recently, you've taken a position with, I'm going to pronounce this awfully, Leo's Lekland. Compare and contrast Liseberg to Europe's largest chain of family entertainment centres?Andreas Andersen:  I mean, there are a lot of similarities and also a lot of differences. I think what is interesting for me, you know, working with Leos is that it's, in many ways, the model is the same. I mean, you pay an entrance fee, you spend a few hours with your family, you may eat a lunch or buy an ice cream or a plush animal. So in many ways, it's the same. But I think, when we're talking about these attractions that are really designed for shorter visits, there is a convenience perspective to them that it's slightly different than, you know, visiting an amusement park or a theme park for a full day. I remember once I had a conversation with one of our competitors in this market, not FECs as such, but, you know, these shorter visits, you know, two, three-hour visit attractions, very often midway attractionsAndreas Andersen: And he said, 'What we sell is actually not.' necessarily an experience, it is two hours spent and I think that's a little bit of a different perspective on an attraction that you actually also go to, Leo's Lekland, to have your kids, you know, be really really tired when they get home, you know, in today's world, where everything is a lot of a lot of stuff is digital and and the kids sit there with their with the tablets and their phones and or their game consoles or they're online with their friends. I think play has a huge and important role to play in the development of motoric and social skills for kids. I think physical play will be something we're going to discuss a lot in the decades to come, because I think we lost a couple of generations the last 20 years. And I think that's a super dangerous thing. So getting back to your question, a lot of similarities, but there are also some differences and I've learned a lot by working with them.Andy Povey: Fantastic. The talk about play really resonates. We lost a year, maybe 18 months through COVID. I have 11-year-old twin girls. I love the idea that me taking them to our local FEC on a Saturday morning so I could recover from a hangover while they went and played was a really positive, good parent thing to do. So thank you for that. We're at the show. What are you looking forward to seeing when you get out on the show floor, when we eventually let you go out on the show floor?Andreas Andersen:  Oh! I very rarely have a plan. I like to just stroll around. Actually, I see it a little bit like visiting an amusement park. You shop for experiences and you see what happens. I think one of the great things about these expos is the fact that, and that's probably what I look most forward to, is that you meet your industry colleagues.Andreas Andersen:  A company like ours, Liseberg, we do not exist; we do not operate within a chain structure. We do not have a corporate mother that knows a lot about what we do. We do not have other parks that we can benchmark with. So these shows is also a little bit a way for us to get out of the bubble and meet other people that work with the same thing as we do. So it's actually not as much the expo floor or the events or the educational program as it is meeting the people. I enjoy.Andy Povey: Andreas, it's been great talking to you. Thank you very much for your time and have a fantastic show.Andreas Andersen:  And I wish you the very same. Thank you.Paul Marden: Now let's head over to the show floor. So we are here on the ProSlide stand, and I'm here with Aaron. Aaron, introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about ProSlide.Aaron  Wilson: Hi, nice to meet you. Thanks for coming in. I'm Aaron Wilson, Senior Vice President, Business Development, EMEA, with ProSlide. I've been with ProSlide for nine years. We're focused really on the design and innovation of rides. That's where we really form the nucleus of who ProSlide is.Paul Marden: Okay, so what are you launching here at this year's IAAPA?Aaron  Wilson:  Yeah, so let's walk over here to our model table. Where we have a large model of our newest feature, which is the Hive. We actually opened up two rides this year, one at Chimelong in China, the most attended water park in the world. Paul Marden: Wow. Aaron  Wilson:  And that's with a five-person family raft, everyone seated facing each other.Paul Marden: That's amazing. So you're going through this on a five-person ring kind of thing?Aaron  Wilson:  Exactly, a five-person tube. So it's a tight radius helix curve. So as you enter, you're entering into a completely open, basically cathedral space. But as you're dropping and turning very quickly, you're staying really stuck along the outside of the wall, feeling those centrifugal forces. And you have a 360-degree global view. So you're able to look forward, backwards, upwards, down. See everywhere where you came from and where you're headed.Paul Marden: It's amazing, isn't it? Because you've got transparent sides on it. So you can see outside as well.Aaron  Wilson:  Absolutely. And there's a ton of theming potential here. In the middle is a support structure. And so we're working on theming there in the middle, if we can. Special effects around the outside. In this case, it's transparent. Exactly.Paul Marden: You've got some amazing models on the table here. This is one of those rides that you can't really bring to IAAPA and experience in real life because we'd all have to be in our swimmers.Aaron  Wilson:  Unfortunately, yes.Paul Marden: But some amazing, amazing models. What's innovative about this? What's this bringing to the market, which is unusual?Aaron  Wilson:  So you have that 360-degree helix turn. We've completely opened it up. So normally in a turn, you can only see a few meters in front of you. In this case, it's a feature that's completely open as you're making that turn. And so you can see everywhere, right? Up and down, forwards, backwards. And that's really part of the differentiation. But obviously the biggest sensation is actually that experience you feel as you have those centrifugal forces around the outside. With a five-person boat, you're looking at about 800 pounds, and you're whipping around the outside, gaining tons of speed throughout. So it's really exciting. The additional interesting thing about this element is we're also doing a two-person tube and a small compact footprint.Aaron  Wilson:  So it's very adaptable for indoor parks or even outdoor parks that don't have a ton of space. That compact footprint gives a lot of flexibility in the design.Paul Marden: So you've got this in China at the moment, you say?Aaron  Wilson:  Yep, and one in the US. And there are a lot more to come in the next one to two years already programmed and open. So we're really excited about this for the water parks.Paul Marden: That's amazing. So we've been asking everybody to get their crystal ball out and tell us trends for 2026. Where do you think the market is going? What do you think that we can expect to see this time next year at IAAPA? Aaron  Wilson:  Water coasters. Water coasters are the big thing. Paul Marden: What on earth is a water coaster? Aaron  Wilson:  Yeah, well, let's head over here to another model table. We have a couple of examples here. So I would say, like in the last couple of years, specifically speaking about Europe, we've seen an amazing response to our water coaster technology using water propulsion. We call it the rocket blast.Paul Marden: Right.Aaron  Wilson:  And so what you have is a series of injectors placed along the uphill sections that actually push the boat uphill. That's amazing. And so with that technology, we're able to do a number of things. And this actually, this ride opened about a year and a half ago at Land of Legends in Turkey. This is, you know, one of the biggest things that will stand out to you here is, as you're looking around all the models, what's very common with a water park is you have—gravity-fed rides, meaning you climb a tower and use gravity to go down. Paul Marden:  This is very flat and long. Aaron  Wilson:  Exactly. This is built essentially on grade. There's no tower here. So, I mean, the first thing is accessibility. So now, as you know, there's no steps. You know, water parks are historically very difficult to meet accessibility. Paul Marden: Yeah. Do you know, I've never thought of that before. But of course, you need to climb the stairs to be able to get to the top of the tower.Aaron  Wilson:  So this case, this is called Turtle Coaster. And this is at Land of Legends. Our guests can walk or, you know, walk or wheel.Paul Marden: Yep.Aaron  Wilson:  As they want up this ramp. This is about four meters off grade. We have a little bit of a drop here. So this is a closed-circuit coaster, right? Meaning the guests are finishing and ending in the same location. Also something different from a water ride. Normally you're going up a tower and finishing in a pool. Here you're finishing and starting at the same location, much like a mechanical dry-growing coaster.Paul Marden: And this, just for listeners' benefit, this has got eight or nine turns in there. It's really, you know. It's going to be a normal coaster-type ride, isn't it?Aaron  Wilson:  This is a 420-meter-long coaster. You're looking at about a minute-and-a-half water ride, which is crazy. Most water rides are about 30 seconds, you know? So it's a really long experience. You have eight uphill last sections, along with what else is unique with our technology is we're able to incorporate these flat last sections. So much like a mechanical coaster has that launch element to it. We're able to do that with water propulsion. So right off the stop, you have this completely flat launch blast. Up, you're getting the elevation. You go around for 420 meters, a series of flying saucer features, uphill sections. Coming back into a water channel.Aaron  Wilson:  And landing in the landing pool, it picks you up on a moving station conveyor. So this conveyor is actually moving at a very slow pace. Guests are cutting off and getting back on.Paul Marden: This is not a lazy river, is it? That you're just sat around for a little while. This is going to hair around.Aaron  Wilson:  Absolutely not. And then here at Siam Park is another coaster here. We opened up in '23. Doolin. So you had two lanes.Paul Marden: Oh, wow.Aaron  Wilson:  And you're racing side by side throughout the experience.Paul Marden: That is amazing. Well, Aaron, look— it's been wonderful to meet you. Find out more about what you're doing here. Looks super, super exciting. I want to get my swimmers on and go and try some, but maybe not whilst we're here in Barcelona, but maybe one time soon.Andy Povey: So we're on the show floor again and I'm with Robbie Jones from Katapult. Robbie, please tell the listeners at home a little bit about Katapult, what you do with them.Robbie  Jones: So we design themed attractions, experiences and destinations. So that can be anything from theme parks all the way through to museums. And our— I guess our core competency is design stage, so pre-concept designs. We get involved quite a lot in theme parks that are very early stages. And my role in that is quite unique within the team of creatives and designers, in that I look towards the insights. So sometimes I work with feasibility partners to kind of pull together the economic requirements for a theme park or an attraction to exist. But more often than not, it's about the guest journey, the guest behaviour, how can we make the guest experience as best as possible by understanding information research that we might have already but also doing some primary research as well to make sure we're creating like that amazing moment for every person that walks through the door.Andy Povey: Fantastic. That sounds really, really impressive. Looking back over 2025, what are your key takeaways from this year so far?Robbie  Jones: Goodness, me. I think I'll speak with a lot of what the industry would say, which is it's been a little bit sticky in places in 2025. There's certainly been more maybes than yeses or nos in terms of projects. But I think we're starting to see things beginning to move. Someone's put some oil in the engine somewhere, which is great. And there's some really exciting projects coming up. Obviously, as a UK-based company, seeing the likes of Universal, Poodie Foo, setting up shop. It's going to be really interesting to see how that impacts not just the UK, but the European market as well.Andy Povey: I couldn't agree more. I really, really look forward to seeing that anticipated improvement in quality of experience that we'll get across the UK. So looking forward to '26 now, what are you anticipating as being the exciting things we're talking about in 12 months' time?Robbie  Jones: Gosh, I mean, I think there will be an element of a quiet time, I think, especially with the new build theme parks, whether that's in the UK or, of course, in the Middle East. I think there'll be an element of quiet that we need to get used to in terms of waiting to see what the next big thing is or the next IP that's going to be in those rides. But I certainly see a lot more positive vibes coming out of the industry. I think we'll see more exciting local experiences, maybe not just big global ones. And yeah, just on the horizon, maybe plenty more opportunity and positivity.Paul Marden: It has been my first IAAPA Expo, and I've had a whale of a time. And I am joined here by Peter van der Schans, the VP and Exec Director of IAAPA EMEA. Peter. Tell me a little bit about what the show has been like for you because I've had an amazing time.Peter van der Schans: Well, so did I. The funny thing is we've always worked so hard on these expos. It takes a hell of a lot of time and it all comes back in this one week. And once you exit that plane or train or however you arrive, you start in a bus and then it's over before you know it.Peter van der Schans: And the week is done and you fall in this big black hole. That's where we're going now. So it's been a wonderful week and it's great to see all our members and every industry leader that is visiting us. We're a small team at IAAPA. We're not a huge organisation, but we have our members supporting us. It's a team effort from both IAAPA and our members, basically. And it's only pride.Paul Marden: One of the most important parts of the show, I think, is the educational side of what you do. There's been a big educational program. Are there any big themes that you've spotted coming out of that education strand?Peter van der Schans: So the education program actually is built with our members and by our members. So, of course, we guide it and shape it. But it's actually done by our members. So it's our members saying, 'Hey, this is where I have issues with. This is the trends I see. This is where I think this is going, which makes it always accurate because we have that industry knowledge by our members.' So in that sense, what we saw this year, there's a lot of focus on AI, obviously, the hot topic nowadays. Paul Marden: It's not a single interview I do where somebody hasn't dropped AI into it. So it's a hot topic.Peter van der Schans: It's a hot topic. And I'm very curious also to see where it's going because right now, if you see execution, the focus is much on back office. For example, Parks Reunidos for example, shared on stage, that they can now predict their next, the next day in visitor numbers with accuracy of 93% which is perfect. Things like that. But I'm curious exactly to see how it's going to evolve in the future to the front end. So what is that visitor going to see in the future? Whenever I go to a theme park, for example, will I be recognised by my name? And if I ride a ride, will the animatronic know my name, for example? Things like that. I think there's limitless possibilities.Peter van der Schans: And we're just at the verge of the beginning. And it's also so, so, so excited about that education program that we share what we know and we work together to get to that point to make it better. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. The collaboration in this sector is just amazing. And IAAPA is just the living proof of that. So many smiling faces. You know that there were competitors together on stands just chatting and enjoying. It's a really enriching experience seeing everybody work together.Peter van der Schans: It is, it is. And the funny thing is I've worked in this industry since I was 16. I started as a ride operator. I didn't know any better than when I had an issue when I became supervisor and manager that I could call the park at the other end of the country and ask, like, 'Hey, how are you dealing with this?' And they helped me. And then I worked at the cinema industry and suddenly I realised that that is not that common in all industries, to say it lightly. It was much more competitive and I didn't want to share anything and really opened my eyes in a way that I realised, like, 'hey, this is special'. And also made me realise that IAAPA plays a big part in that as well, as an organisation to bring all those people together, to provide that platform to work together.Paul Marden: Yes, the facilitators of the community, aren't you? I'm going to ask you a slightly controversial question here. Outside of show hours, what has been your favourite party or event? And you can name drop any one of them. It's absolutely fine. Nobody will be upset with you.Peter van der Schans: I must say the ballpark reception, obviously for the British people. Always good beers. The Tuesday events with the opening ceremony, where we really kick off the week. They made me dance again. I don't recommend watching that back, but that's always just a fun, fun morning where we really kick off the week with a big energy, with a nice connection to the host city as well. Peter van der Schans: It's always fun to work on that and to execute that, but also the evening event, the opening reception where we gather. Well, this year we had 1,400 industry professionals coming together and mixing, mingling in Tibidabo. Without rain, thankfully. Paul Marden: Well, yes, this is the thing. So I was watching the skies thinking this could go really badly wrong. The BBC weather forecasts were not looking good. Peter van der Schans: There's this tradition in Barcelona that you bring eggs to nuns and they make sure you'll have good weather. We did that. We brought three dozens.Paul Marden: Took a lot of eggs. There was a lot of eggs broken in the making of this party. But you did very well. We're at the end. And everybody gets to heave a big sigh of relief that the show's done. It's in the can. But there's also a touch of sadness and fondness looking forward to what comes next. So next year, what have you got coming up first? I understand there's something in the Middle East.Peter van der Schans: Yeah, absolutely. We actually last year at this expo in Amsterdam, we announced the launch of our newest expo, IAAPA Expo Middle East, which is actually the first time in IAAPA's history that we built a new expo from scratch.Peter van der Schans: Never done that before, our members and and people in the industry ask us year after year like, 'When is IAAPA coming to the Middle East?' Of course, there's a huge amount of investments going on in that region. It's crazy. And in that sense, we we simply listen to our members and decide that this is the time we need to go. And we're excited to get closer and closer to the actual launch of the event in March in 2026 in Abu Dhabi.Paul Marden: So March 2026, Abu Dhabi is our next event. But there is another event coming next year. IAAPA is coming to London, which I'm very pleased about. Tell me, is the planning all starting on Monday? Are you already a long way through planning? Plans you can share with me about what's coming up in London?Peter van der Schans: We will have an exciting program for sure, but we're not there yet with with the actual education programme. That takes a little bit more of time, but we do have the show Florencial already and that's looking to be another record-breaking show. What I think also remarkable is that we will have one third more education than we will have in our previous show. So we always had two conference rooms— we'll have three in London. So we'll have actually quite a big increase in our educational offerings as well.Paul Marden: That's amazing. I cannot wait. This has been my first IAAPA, but it won't be my last IAAPA. I think I can confidently say that. So grateful for you and the team inviting us along as Skip the Queue to be part of what you've been doing. We've had an amazing time and I cannot wait to see you again in London.Peter van der Schans: Thank you very much and happy to have you here.Paul Marden: We are here at the end of day three of IAAPA Expo Europe. We've had a wonderful time. Andy Povey: I'm broken. Paul Marden: Oh man, I'm going home a broken man. The voice is barely holding on. I am here with Laura Read from Marwell Zoo. Welcome to Skip the Queue, Laura.Laura Read: Hello. Thank you for having me.Paul Marden: Laura, what's it been like for you? What's the benefit of coming to IAAPA for you?Laura Read: So this is my first IAAPA. For me, this was all around looking at what's new for visitor attractions, what's innovative, what's coming up, and what could we potentially bring to the visitors of Marwell Zoo that might be exciting and might drive more visitors to come to us, really, ultimately. It's all about, for us, diversification, keeping the zoo product at the core of our offer, obviously, but seeing how we can augment that with other things.Paul Marden: So what can we expect? Is it going to be a 4D immersive ride experience? Water slides? Or are you looking for something that enriches the in-real-life experience for you? And it's a bit more low-tech.Laura Read: Oh, I'd love to put in like a water park. Do you know what? That's something like the coolest stalls. Like going around going, 'oh, I'd love to design a water park. That's so fun. No, no'. So for us, it's really about looking at sort of smaller, lower-level, new attractions that we can bring in, you know, we're primarily a family audience. So it's what do kids want to play on? You know, I've seen some really cool little ride-on Jeeps that we think would work really, really well because we also want to stay true to our ethos. You know, Marwell's built its reputation on our conservation work, our hands-on conservation work in the field, you know, reversing species decline and also around sustainability. So sustainability is really core to our offer.Laura Read: This is not about turning Marwell into a theme park or a water park or anything like that, because the animals are still very much the stars of the show, as is the conservation work. But it's about how we can best utilise our space to provide that density of guest experience. And I think seeing all the things here today. That's where the inspiration comes in.Paul Marden: I think it's really interesting, isn't it? Because when you take your kids to the zoo, you need some space. You need a palate cleanser between the animals, don't you? To give the kids time to burn off some energy, to do something a little bit different. And then they come back re-energised and you're hiding the vegetables. You're teaching them about the conservation efforts and all the really important stuff that you do, but hidden around lots of things that keep them happy and engaged in what's going on.Laura Read: Exactly. The problem with zoos is the animals— they don't care that they're the exhibits.Laura Read: And, you know, we are a primarily outdoor attraction. Extremes of heat, rainy days, animals disappear. We know that. We know that the perennial problem is: I didn't see any animals because we have really, really high animal welfare levels and standards. And if those animals want to go off show and take themselves off to bed or away from the public view, they all can and should and do. So we need something that can keep kids particularly engaged and entertained, hopefully getting across a bit of education and messaging as well at the same time. That's a massive tick in the box. But, you know, it fills in the gaps when those animals just aren't playing ball.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Andy, what's been the highlight of day three for you, mate?Andy Povey: So I think it's actually talking to Laura.Paul Marden: Such a charmer.Andy Povey: Let me finish. Let me justify. It's really picking up the fact that this isn't just a theme park show. Yeah. There are elements for everything you could possibly do any day out any attraction, even in any shopping centre or any place you go to where there's large crowds of people— so it's all of that kind of stuff. I think is it's refreshing to see it through someone else's eyes, through our conversations.Laura Read: I was going to say, 'I have to say,'  Before I was chief exec at Marwell, I ran a really large, shopping centre like retail, leisure, events, and destination. And I'm amazed that this is not on more commercial real estate people's radar. I look to see if there's anyone from a previous company here, then there isn't on the attendees list. And I'm like, 'Wow,' this is all the stuff that we should have been thinking about five years ago, ten years ago, when we were realising that diversification from a retail point of view is so important because of online shopping. So that's really interesting what you say. It's not just the theme parks.Andy Povey: No, absolutely not. It's all about the day out. And ultimately, that's all. We're all here to do is we work in a fun industry, and fun doesn't have to just be an amusement park.Paul Marden: Yeah, I found it really interesting. Seeing the things that I've seen has stretched my definition of what a visitor attraction actually is, because it is more than just a theme park. As you wander around and you see the different exhibitors, I was expecting to see... The ride designers and some of the really cool tech that I've seen. But there was other stuff that I've seen that I just hadn't expected.Andy Povey: No, I mean, I was chatting yesterday to a guy who supplies park benches and litter bins.  You see them everywhere. Paul Marden: I say the park bench thing. I remember when I was working at the Botanic Gardens in Wales as it was being built, the importance of the park bench and sitting on them. And they were beautiful park benches, but they were also super comfy. The importance of a park bench, like a good toilet, can't be underestimated.Laura Read: You can always tell someone who works in visitor attraction operations, when they go to any other visitor attraction, they take pictures of the bins. I think that is an absolute giveaway. When I go places with my family and the kids are there, taking pictures of animals or taking pictures of each other or whatever they're doing. And I'm there. Oh, I'm just gonna take a picture of that sign. You know, like.Andy Povey: I have another confession to make. I had a conversation with my wife who took the kids to an attraction a couple of weeks ago. And I was most distressed that she hadn't taken a picture of the till for me.Paul Marden: Oh, you would know what the part number and everything about that till, wouldn't you? Such a retail geek.Paul Marden: Laura, thank you so much for joining us on Skip the Queue. It has been delightful. I feel that there might be a full episode coming on, talking about the zoo, if you'll have me.Laura Read: Yes, absolutely. Bring it on. Paul Marden: Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much.Andy Povey: Andy, take me to the airport.Paul Marden: If you enjoyed this episode, please like and comment in your podcast app. It really helps more people to find us. Show notes and links to all our guests this week are available on our website, skipthequeue.fm. It's been a massive team effort to take Skip the Queue to IAAPA. A huge thank you to Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle, Steve Folland and Wenalyn Dionaldo, Claire Furnival and Andy Povey, as well as Erica Washington-Perry and her team at IAAPA Global Communications.Paul Marden: Next week, we're wrapping up our IAAPA theme, talking to Choni Fernandez, Chief Sustainability Officer at PortAventura Entertainment, and Jakob Wahl, President and CEO of IAAPA. See you then.  The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

In this episode of Skip the Queue, host Paul Marden speaks with Andy Hadden, founder of the Lost Shore Surf Resort in Scotland. Andy shares the remarkable journey from his sporting background and early property career to discovering wave technology in the Basque Country, which inspired him to bring inland surfing to Scotland. Despite starting with no money and no land, Andy raised over £100 million and built one of the world's most advanced inland surf destinations. He explains how Lost Shore Surf Resort combines world-class waves with a strong community focus, sustainability initiatives, and partnerships with schools and universities to deliver real social and economic impact.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  Lost Shore Surf Resort website: https://www.lostshore.com/Andy Hadded on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andy-hadden-94989a67/Andy Hadden is the founder of Lost Shore Surf Resort, Scotland's first inland surf destination and home to Europe's largest wave pool. Opened in November 2024 near Edinburgh, Lost Shore is the country's largest sports infrastructure project since the Commonwealth Games and now attracts a truly international audience of surfers, families, and brands. With a background in insolvency and investment surveying, Andy led the venture from concept to completion - securing major institutional backing and building a multidisciplinary team to deliver a world-class destination. Long before 'ESG' was a buzzword, he embedded environmental and social value into Lost Shore's DNA, helping set new benchmarks for responsible development. As home to the Surf Lab with Edinburgh Napier University, Lost Shore also serves as a global hub for performance, product R&D, and surf therapy. Live from the show floor, we'll also be joined by:Bakit Baydaliev, CEO/ Cofounder of DOF Roboticshttps://dofrobotics.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/bakitbaydaliev/Hamza Saber, Expert Engineer at TÜV SÜDhttps://www.tuvsud.com/enhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/hamzasaber/David Jungmann, Director of Business Development at Accessohttps://www.accesso.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjungmann/Kristof Van Hove, Tomorrowlandhttps://www.tomorrowland.com/home/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristof-van-hove-2ba3b953/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about attractions and the amazing people who work with them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and with my co-host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're coming to you from IAAPA Expo Europe. This is the first of three episodes from the show floor that will come to you over the next three days. Firstly, I'm joined today by Andy Hadden, the founder of Lost Shores Surf Resort.Paul Marden: Andy, tell us a little bit about your journey. You've opened this amazing attraction up there in Scotland where I was on holiday a couple of weeks ago. Tell us a little bit about that attraction. Why this and why in Scotland?Andy Hadden: Well, I grew up locally and I came from more of a sporting family than so much of a business family. My father was the international rugby coach for a while and I played a lot of sport. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Andy Hadden: Yeah, yeah. So we always had this thing about there wasn't enough facilities here in Scotland because Scotland is a place which doesn't necessarily have all the resources and the access to funds and everything else like that. But one thing we noted with, you know, if you created facilities, whether they be good tennis facilities, good 4G football pitches, whatever it was. It allowed the environment around it to prosper, the communities around it to prosper. And, of course, I was a charter surveyor by trade, so I worked in insolvency and then in investment. So I sold two sites to that market. Andy Hadden: But I always surfed. I always surfed. So whilst I was down in Birmingham in England, when I actually got an email in 2012 talking about some, you know, some surfy thing that might have been happening in Bristol, I called the head of destination consulting up and I said, 'this sounds like nonsense, to be honest', because I surf and you can't really be talking about real surfing waves here. It's got to be something, you know, different. He said, 'No, no, there's these guys in the Basque country.' So I took a flight over there and that day changed everything for me. Paul Marden: So what was it that you saw? Andy Hadden: I went to see what was back then a secret test facility in the mountains of the Basque Country. It was very cloak and dagger. I had to follow the guide and give me the email address. I found this all very exciting. When I went and actually saw this facility, I realised that for the decade before that, there'd been all these amazing minds, engineers and surfers working on what they believed could be, you know, a big future of not just the inland surfing movement that's now burgeoning into a multi-billion dollar global movement, but it could really affect surfing. And if it was going to affect surfing as a sport, and it's now an Olympic sport because of these facilities, they wanted to make sure that it was a very accessible piece of kit. So surfing, it could affect surfing if ran by the right people in the right ways and really communicate that stoke of the sport to the masses.Paul Marden: So what is it that you've built in Edinburgh then? Tell me a little bit about it.Andy Hadden: So we've delivered a wave garden cove, which is a 52-module wave garden, which is about the size of three football pitches, and it can run hundreds of waves an hour, touch of a button and it can run in skiing parlance anything from green runs right through to sort of black powder runs. And the beauty of it is you can have people that are the better surfers out the back and just like at the beach at the front you've got their kids and learning how to surf on the white water. So we're finding it to be a really amazing experience— not just for surfers who are obviously flocking to us, but already here in Scotland, eight months in, tens of thousands of new surfers are all coming back and just going, 'Wow, we've got this thing on our doorstep.' This is blowing our minds, you know. Paul Marden: Wowzers, wowzers. Look, I'm guessing that the infrastructure and the technology that you need to be able to create this kind of inland wave centre is key to what you're doing. That you've got to access some funds, I guess, to be able to do this. This is not a cheap thing for you to be able to put together, surely.Andy Hadden: Yeah, correct. I mean, you know, I have questioned my own sanity at times. But when I started 10 years ago, I had no money and no land. But I did have some property expertise and I wanted to do it in Edinburgh, a close-up place that I cared about. So we have excellent networks. For a few years, you know. Whilst we've ended up raising over  £100 million in structured finance from a standing start, it took me a couple of years just to raise £40,000. And then I used that to do some quite bizarre things like flying everyone that I cared about, you know, whether they were from the surf community or... Community stakeholders, politicians, and everyone over to the test facility to see themselves— what I could see to sort of—well, is it? Am I just getting carried away here? Or is there something in this? And then, on top of that, you know, we sponsored the world's first PhD in surf therapy with that first $5,000. So now we have a doctor in surf therapy who now takes me around the world to California and all these places. How does business actually really genuinely care about, you know, giving back? And I'm like, yeah, because we said we're going to do this once.Andy Hadden: We got to do it right. And it took us a decade. But yeah, we raised the money and we're very happy to be open.Paul Marden: So I mentioned a minute ago, I was holidaying in Scotland. I bookended Edinburgh— both sides of the holiday. And then I was in Sky for a few days as well. There's something about Edinburgh at the moment. There is a real energy. Coming up as a tourist, there was way too much for me to be able to do. It seems to be a real destination at the moment for people.Andy Hadden: Yeah, well, I think, coming from the background I came from, if I knew I was going to deliver a surfing park in the edge of Edinburgh, I then wanted to do it in the least risky way possible. So to do that, I felt land ownership was key and three business plans was also very key. Edinburgh's in need of accommodation regardless, and Edinburgh's also in need of good places, a good F&B for friends and family just to go and hang out on the weekends. And then, of course, you have the surfing, and we've got a big wellness aspect too. We also sit next to Europe's largest indoor climbing arena. And we're obviously very well connected in the centre of Scotland to both Edinburgh and Scotland. So, so many things to do. So, yeah, I mean, the Scottish tourism landscape has always been good, but it's just getting better and better as we see this as a future-proof marketplace up here. You know, we're not building ships anymore.Andy Hadden: Well, in fact, we got a contract the other week to build one, so maybe that's wrong. But the point is, we see it as a very future-proof place because the Americans are flagging, the Europeans are flagging, and they just want to feel like they're part of something very Scottish. And that's what we've tried to do in our own special way.Paul Marden: And when you think of coming to Scotland, of course, you think about surfing, don't you? Andy Hadden: Yes, who knows. Paul Marden: Exactly, exactly. Look, you had some recent high-profile support from Jason Connery, the son of the late James Bond actor Sean Connery. How did that come about?Andy Hadden: Well, I think we've got, there's a real Scottish spirit of entrepreneurialism that goes back, you know, probably right the way through to the Enlightenment where, you know, I'm sure. I'm sure a lot of you know how many inventions came from Scotland. And this is, you know, televisions, telephones, penicillin. I mean, just the list goes on.Andy Hadden: Of course, you know, that was a long, long time ago, but we still feel a lot of pride in that. But there seems to be a lot of people who've had success in our country, like someone like Sir Sean Connery. These guys are still very proud of that. So when they see something— very entrepreneurial— where we're using a lot of local businesses to create something bigger than the sum of its parts. And to do it truly— not just to be a profitable private business, which is what it is, but to give back 18 million into local economy every year, to work with schools in terms of getting into curriculums. We've got Surf Lab. We work with universities, charities, and so on. They really want to support this stuff. So we have over 50 shareholders, and they've each invested probably for slightly different reasons. They all have to know that their money is a good bet, but I think they all want to feel like they're part of creating a recipe. For a surf resort, which we believe there'll be hundreds of around the world in the next few years. And we can create that recipe here in Scotland. That's hopefully another example of Scottish innovation and entrepreneurialism.Paul Marden: So you've got the test bed that happened in the Basque Country. You've got Scotland now. Are there surf resorts like this elsewhere in the world?Andy Hadden: Yeah, there are eight other open in the world. There's actually, there's various technologies. So there's about 25 different surf parks open at the moment. But there's... doesn't under construction. Pharrell Williams has just opened one in Virginia Beach a few weeks ago there in America. And what the equity, I think, is looking at quite rightly, the big equity, you know, the type that go right, if this really is a, you know, kind of top golfing steroids in that property developers can look at them as.Andy Hadden: You know, excellent ways to get through their more standardised property place, residential, office, industrial. Usually they have to do that in a kind of loss-leading way. But if you look at this as a leisure attraction, which councils and cities actually want because of the benefits, and it makes you money, and it increases the prices of your residential around it. I think developers are starting to realise there's a sweet spot there. So the equity, the big equity, I think, is about to drop in this market over the next couple of years. And it's just waiting for the data set to enable them to do that.Paul Marden: Wow. I guess there's an environmental impact to the work that you do, trying to create any big... a big project like this is going to have some sort of environmental impact. You've put in place an environmental sustainability strategy before it was mainstream as it is now. Tell us some of the things that you've put in place to try to address that environmental impact of what you're doing.Andy Hadden: Well, we're in a disused quarry. So it was a brownfield site. So already just by building on it and creating an immunity, we're also adding to the biodiversity of that site. And we're obviously there's no escaping the fact that we're a user of energy. There's just no escaping that. So the reality is we've got as much sustainable energy use as we can from air source heat pumps to solar. And we're looking at a solar project. So it becomes completely self-sustaining. But we also, the electricity we do access from the grid is through a green tariff. But you'll see a lot of the resorts around the world, this is going to become the sort of, the main play is to become sort of sustainable in that sense. Where we really fly is with the S and ESG. And like you say, the reason we were the world's first institutionally backed wave park, of course, we like to think it was purely down to our financials. But the reality is, they started saying, 'Wow, you're as authentic an ESG company as we've come across.'Andy Hadden: And it's the same with our mission-based national bank. So, because we didn't really know what that meant, we just knew it was the right thing to do. So we fit squarely into that ESG category, which I know is a tick box for a lot of funds, let's face it. There's a lot of them that really want to do that. There's a lot of investors out there that want to do it. But let's understand our place in the system, which is we're really market leading in that area. And I think that's very attractive for a lot of funds out there. But the S in ESG is where we really fly with all the work we're doing socially around the site.Paul Marden: So talk to me a little bit about that. How are you addressing that kind of the social responsibility piece?Andy Hadden: Well, two examples would be we're not just looking at schools to come here to surf. That's an obvious one. They'll go to any attraction to surf if you could go to Laser Quest, go up to visit the castle, do whatever. But we reverse engineered it. We got schools coordinated to go around the headmasters and the schools and say, 'Well, Look, you're all teaching STEM, science, technology, engineering, maths, for 9 to 13-year-olds. And you're all looking for outdoor learning now, which is definitely a big part of the future in education in general. Can you allow us to create some modules here? So we've got six modules that actually fit into that STEM strategy. For instance, last week, there was a school in learning physics, but they were using surf wax on a surfboard friction.Paul Marden: Amazing.Andy Hadden: So these kids so it works for schools and headmasters which is very important and for parents and it obviously works for the kids and they love it and the reason we do that and we give that it's all at discounted low times and everything is because it's a numbers game they come back at the weekend and so on so that's example one and another would be we've created a surf lab with Napier University, a higher education. So we sponsored the world's first doctor. It got a PhD in surf therapy, but then the university was like, 'hold on a minute, you know, this is good marketing for us as well'.Andy Hadden: This surf lab, which has the infrastructure to host great competitions, but also PhD students can come down and learn engineering. They can learn sustainable energy. So we've got more PhD students working there. And this higher university collaboration has not only led to Alder kids coming down but other universities in the area are now what can we do with lost shore now that's cool and fun so we're working with the other universities in town too so that's a couple of examples alongside the standard, employing local people and actually having the economics of putting money into the local economy.Paul Marden: It's interesting, isn't it? Because... So for many people, ESG, and especially the social responsibility piece, feels a little bit worthy. It feels an altruistic move for the organisation to go and do those things. But you've hit on the quid pro quo what do you get back for doing all of this stuff well you're bringing in these kids you're enriching their learning, you're helping them to learn valuable skills but you're also giving them a taster of what life is like at the the resort and seeing the benefit of the return visits that flow from that is crazy.Andy Hadden: You know, I like to think we've fought as hard as anyone to ingrain this stuff in your DNA because we're year one. And of course, we have our cash flow difficulties like everyone does. You know, you don't know how to... run the place for the first three months or that's what it feels like even though you've done all this preparation and so on and so forth but at no point does anyone turn around and go let's get rid of the schools program let's get rid of the university partnership and that's why i think it's very important to build it into your dna because it doesn't have to be this zero-sum game that people attribute you know or we're giving here so that means we have to take over here it's like there's cute ways to do everything you can do the right thing but also drive traffic for your business and it's very good right. It's good reputation, because the people that stay there, when they see that we're doing this stuff, they feel like they're part of it, and then they want to book again. So I believe it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game, but it is a different way of creating a business— that's for sure.Paul Marden: For sure. So there's going to be a listener out there, I'm sure, with a crazy idea like you had a few years ago. What advice would you give for somebody just starting out thinking of opening a business in the leisure and attraction sector?Andy Hadden: I would just try your best to make it as simple as possible. I think it was Yves Chouinard, the founder of Patagonia, who said, 'One of the hardest things in life is to make it simple. It's so easy to make it complex.' And when you're dealing with a business plan, it's very exciting, right? Well, what if we get into this market? What if we do this? And splitting it all into those components. I think arm yourself with very good people around you. They don't even have to be part of the company. If you've been a good person in your life, I'm sure you've got friends who you can tap into. Everyone knows an architect. Everyone knows an accountant. Everyone knows a lawyer. You're a friend of a friend. Andy Hadden: And I think just overload yourself with as much information to get you to the point where you can be assertive with your own decisions. Because at the end of the day, it's going to come down to you making your own decisions. And if you've got a very clear path of what success and failure looks like, understanding that it ain't going to look like your business plan. As long as it's got the broad shapes of where you want to go, it can get you out of bed every day to try and make things happen. So, yeah, just go for it. Really, that's it.Paul Marden: See where it takes you. So look, in the world of themed entertainment, we talk a lot about IP and storytelling and creating magical experiences. Are any of these concepts relevant to a destination like yours?Andy Hadden: Yeah, well, you know, technically, from an IP perspective, you know, we're using the WaveGround Cove technology. You know, we've purchased that. So from a strictly business perspective, you know, we have access to their sort of IP in that sense and we deliver that. But I think for us, the IP is the destination. It's so unique, it's so big that it becomes defendable at scale. So it does sound like a bit of an all-in poker hand. But it would be more risky to go half in because these things are very hard to build. But when they are built, they're also very hard to compete with. So as long as your customer experience is good enough. You're going to maintain a kind of exclusivity in your locality for long into the future. So, yeah, there's obviously IP issues in terms of technologies. But for us, it was all about creating a destination with three business plans that's greater than the sum of its parts. And if we can do that in our location, then it's very hard to compete against, I would say.Paul Marden: Andy, it sounds like such an exciting journey that you've been on. And one year in, that journey has still got a long way to play out, doesn't it? You must be on quite the rollercoaster. Well, surfing quite a wave at the moment, if I don't mix my metaphors so badly.Andy Hadden: Yeah, we're just entering maybe the penultimate phase of the sort of 20-year plan. You know, we've gone through our early stages, our fundraising, our construction. We've gone through the very hard sort of like getting the team together and opening year one. And we're just starting to go, 'OK, we understand we've got data now'. We understand how to run this place now. So I think we now want to push through to stabilise the next two or three years. And then hopefully we've got a lot of irons in the fire globally as well. Hopefully we can go to the next phase, but we'll see what happens. Worst case scenario, I just surf a bit more and try and enjoy my lot.Paul Marden: Well, Andy, it's been lovely talking to you. I've been really interested to hear what you've been up to. This was only a short snippet of an interview. I reckon there's some more stories for you to tell once you're into year two. So I'd love for you to come back and we'll do a full-on interview once you've got year two under your belt. How's that sound to you?Andy Hadden: Absolutely, Paul, and thanks very much for the platform.Paul Marden: Next up, let's hear from some of the exhibitors on the floor. Bakit.Paul Marden: Introduce yourself for me, please, and tell me a little bit about where you're from.Bakit Baydaliev: We have two companies located in Turkey, Istanbul, and Los Angeles, USA. We develop attractions, equipment, but not just equipment— also software, AI, and content, games, and movies. Paul Marden: Oh, wow. So you're here at IAPA. This is my very first morning of my very first IAAPA. So it's all very overwhelming for me. Tell me, what is it that you're launching at IAAPA today?Bakit Baydaliev: Today we're launching our bestseller, Hurricane. It's a coaster simulator. In addition to that, we're also launching a special immersive tunnel, Mars Odyssey. We're sending people to Mars, we're sending people to space, and the story, of course, may change. After you install the attractions, you always can create different kinds of content for this attraction. It's completely immersive and what is very unique for this attraction is edutainment. Theme parks, science centres, space centres, and museums all benefit from it. It's not just to show and entertain, but also educate and provide a lot of useful information for people. Paul Marden: So what would you say is unique about this? Bakit Baydaliev: There are several factors. First of all, it's equipment. We have a very special software that amazingly synchronizes with the content and it doesn't create motion sickness at all. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Bakit Baydaliev: This is very important. Independently on the speeds, which is... We have very high speeds in our simulators. In addition to that, we have special effects, unusual effects, which feel like cold, heat, sounds.Paul Marden: So it is truly 4D, isn't it?Bakit Baydaliev: Completely. In addition to that, it's interactive content. It's not just the content which you can sit and... watch and entertain yourself and get a lot of useful information, but also you can interact. You can play games, you can shoot, you can interact. And of course, the most important thing which makes this attraction innovative is the educational aspect.Paul Marden: I find that really interesting that you could see this ride at a theme park, but similarly you can see it as an educational exhibit at a science centre or space centre. I think that's very interesting.Bakit Baydaliev: Very, very. Especially, you know, the standard experience for space centres, science centres, and especially museums, it's just walking around, touch some stuff. Some you may not even touch it. It's exponents which you can watch, you can read, it's very nice. But it's even better when you let people live it in real with a nice simulation atmosphere environment, like immersive tunnel.Paul Marden: Absolutely. Bekit, thank you so much for joining us on Skip the Queue, and I look forward to enjoying one of the rides.Bakit Baydaliev: Please ride, and you will be amazed.Hamza Saber: My name is Hamza. I work for TÜV SUD Germany. Our main job is to make sure attractions are safe, parks are safe. We do everything from design review to initial examination of rides, to yearly checks and making sure that we push the standards and the norm to the next level and cover everything that comes in new in the industry as well to make sure this industry stays safe and enjoyable for people. Paul Marden: It's so important though, isn't it? At an event like this, you don't have a sexy stand with lots of really cool rides to experience, but what you do is super important.Hamza Saber: Yes, I guess it's not one of the big colourful booths, but it's at the heart of this industry. It's in the background. If you look at the program for the education, there is a lot of safety talks. There is a lot of small groups talking about safety, trying to harmonise norms as well. Because if you look at the world right now, we have the EN standards. We have the American standards and we're working right now to try to bring them closer together so it's as easy and safe and clear for all manufacturers and operators to understand what they need to do to make sure that their guests are safe at the end of the day.Paul Marden: So Hamza, there's some really cool tech that you've got on the stand that's something new that you've brought to the stand today. So tell us a little bit about that.Hamza Saber: So as you can see, we have one of the drones right here and the video behind you. So we're trying to include new technologies to make it easier, faster, and more reliable to do checks on big structures like this or those massive buildings that you usually see. You can get really, really close with the new technologies, the drones with the 4K cameras, you can get very, very precise. We're also working on AI to train it to start getting the first round of inspections done using AI. And just our expert to focus on the most important and critical aspects. So we're just going to make it faster, more reliable.Paul Marden: So I guess if you've got the drone, that means you don't have to walk the entire ride and expect it by eye?Hamza Saber: No, we still have to climb. So what we do is more preventive using the drones. So the drones, especially with the operators, they can start using them. And if they notice something that does not fit there, we can go and look at it. But the actual yearly inspections that are accepted by the governments, you still need to climb, you still need to check it yourself. So the technology is not right there yet, but hopefully we're going to get there. Paul Marden: We're a long way away from the robots coming and taking the safety engineer's job then. Hamza Saber: Yes, exactly. And they don't think they're going to come take our jobs anytime soon. Using technology hands-in-hands with our expertise, that's the future.Paul Marden: It must be so exciting for you guys because you have to get involved in all of these projects. So you get to see the absolute tippy top trends as they're coming towards you.Hamza Saber: Yeah, for sure. Like we're always three years before the public knowledge. So it's exciting to be behind the scene a little bit and knowing what's going on. We're seeing some really fun and creative ideas using AI to push the attractions industry to the next level. So I'm excited to see any new rides that will be published or announced at some point this week.Paul Marden: Very cool. Look, Hamza, it's been lovely to meet you. Thanks for coming on Skip the Queue.Hamza Saber: Yeah, thank you so much.Kristof Van Hove: My name is Kristof. I live in Belgium. I'm working for the Tomorrowland group already now for three years, especially on the leisure part.Paul Marden: Tell listeners a little bit about Tomorrowland because many of our listeners are attraction owners and operators. They may not be familiar with Tomorrowland.Kristof Van Hove: Yeah, so Tomorrowland is already 20 years, I think, one of the number one festivals in the world. Actually, already for the last years, always the number one in the world. And what makes us special is that we are not just a festival, but we are a community. We create. special occasions for people and it starts from the moment that they buy their tickets till the festival we make a special feeling that people like and I think we create a world and each year we work very hard on new team that goes very deep so not only making a festival but we go very deep in our branding not only with our main stage but we also make a book about it we make gadgets about it so it's a completely.Paul Marden:  Wow. Help listeners to understand what it is that you're doing new here at the moment. You're blending that festival experience, aren't you, into attractions.Kristof Van Hove: Yeah, that's right. So because we are already 20 years on the market building IP, the more and more we really are able to create a complete experience, not only the IP as a brand, but also all the things around it. We have our own furniture. We have our own plates. We create actually all elements that are needed to build a leisure industry project. And that makes it magnificent. I think we are capable now, with everything that we do in-house, to set up and to facilitate water park and attraction park projects completely. Paul Marden: So, have you got any attractions that are open at the moment? Kristof Van Hove: Well, we have the Ride to Happiness, of course, the coaster that is built in Plopsaland three years ago. That is already now for five years the number one steel coaster in Europe and the fifth steel coaster in the world. So this is a project we are very proud of. Besides that, we have already a lot of immersive experiences. And we are constructing now a secret project that will be announced in the beginning of next year somewhere in Europe.Paul Marden: Give us a little sneak peek what that might look like.Kristof Van Hove: It's not that far from here. Okay, okay, excellent. So it's more an outdoor day project that we are constructing. That for sure will be something unique. Excellent.Paul Marden: So look, you're already planning into 2026. Help listeners to understand what the future might look like. What trends are you seeing in the sector for next year?Kristof Van Hove: Well, I think more and more the people expect that they get completely a deep dive into branding. I don't think that people still want to go to non-IP branded areas. They want to have the complete package from the moment that they enter. They want to be immersed. With everything around it, and they want a kind of a surrounding, and they want to have the feeling that they are a bit out of their normal life, and a deep dive in a new environment. And I think this is something that we try to accomplish. Paul Marden: Wow.David Jungmann: David Jungman, I'm the Director of Business Development here at Accesso, based in Germany. I'm super excited to be here at IAPA in Barcelona. We're exhibiting our whole range of solutions from ticketing to point of sale to virtual queuing to mobile apps. And one of the features we're calling out today is our Accesso Pay 3.0 checkout flow, which streamlines donations, ticket insurance, relevant payment types by region on a single simple one-click checkout page.Paul Marden: What impact does that have on customers when they're presented with that simple one-click checkout?David Jungmann: Well, as you guys know, conversion rate is super important. The number of clicks in an e-commerce environment is super important. And because we're at IAAPA Europe, we've got guests here from all over Europe. Different regions require different payment types. And it's important to not overload a checkout page with like eight different types for, let's say, German guests, Dutch guests, Belgium guests, is to be able to only offer what's relevant and to keep it short and sweet. And then rolling in additional features like donations, ticket insurance and gift cards, stuff like that.Paul Marden: Amazing. So get your crystal ball out and think about what the world in 2026 is going to be like.David Jungmann: I think this year was a little bit soft in terms of performance for the parks, certainly in Europe, what we've seen. I think what that will mean is that maybe some will consider, you know, really big capex investments. But what that also means is they will get creative. So I envision a world where, instead of buying new protocols for 20 million, maybe some operators will start thinking about how can we make more out of what we've got with less, right? How can we be really creative? And I think there's a lot to uncover next year for us to see.Paul Marden:  Sweating their assets maybe to be able to extend what they do without that big CapEx project.David Jungmann:  Yes, how can we keep innovating? How can we keep our experience fresh? Without just buying something very expensive straight away. And I think that's what we see.Paul Marden: What is going to be innovating for Xesso and the market that you serve?David Jungmann: Well, for us, it's really about that streamlined, consistent guest experience, but also tying into things like immersive experiences, right, where you could maybe change the overlay of an attraction and feed in personalised information that you have for your visitors and collect it during you know the booking flow when they enter the venue and feeding that into the actual experience i think that's something i'm excited about.Paul Marden: I think that there is a missed opportunity by so many attractions. There's so much data that we build and we collect the data, but oftentimes we don't bring it together into a central place and then figure out the ways in which we want to use it. There's so much more you can do with that rich data, isn't there?David Jungmann: 100% exactly. And I don't just mean from a marketing perspective. I mean from an actual experience perspective. Let's say you ride through Dark Ride and all of a sudden your name pops up or your favorite character pops up and waves hello to you. That's the type of stuff you want to do, not just market the hell out of it.Paul Marden: Absolutely. Look, David, it's been so good to meet you. Thank you ever so much. And yeah, thank you for joining Skip the Queue. David Jungmann: Thanks, Paul. Have a great day at the show. Paul Marden: Isn't it great? I mean, we have got such an amazing job, haven't we? To be able to come to a place like this and be able to call this work.David Jungmann: Absolute privilege. Yes, absolutely.Paul Marden: Now, before we wrap up, Andy and I wanted to have a little chat about what we've seen today and what we've enjoyed. Why don't we sit down? You have clearly returned to your tribe. Is there a person in this place that doesn't actually know you?Andy Povey: There's loads. I've been doing the same thing for 30 years. Paul Marden: Yeah, this ain't your first radio, is it? Andy Povey: I'm big and I'm loud, so I'd stand out in a crowd. I mean, there are all fantastic things that I should put on my CV. But this is really where I feel at home. This industry continues to blow me away. We're here, we're talking to competitors, we're talking to potential customers, we're talking to previous customers, we're talking to people that we've worked with, and it's just all so friendly and so personally connected. I love it.Paul Marden: It has been awesome. I've really enjoyed it. Although I'm beginning to get into the Barry White territory of my voice because it's quite loud on the show floor, isn't it? Andy Povey: It is. It's actually quieter than previous shows, so I don't know why, and I don't know whether... Maybe I'm just getting old and my hearing's not working quite so well, but... You used to walk out of the show and you could almost feel your ears relax as they just stopped hearing and being assaulted, I suppose, by machines pinging and blowing.Paul Marden: It really is an assault on the senses, but in the very best way possible. Andy Povey: Absolutely, absolutely. I feel like a child. You're walking around the show, you're going, 'Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow.' Paul Marden: So what has been your highlight? Andy Povey: Do you know, I don't think I could give you one. It really is all of the conversations, the connections, the people you didn't know that you hadn't spoken to for two years.Paul Marden: So for me, my highlight, there was a ride that I went on, Doff Robotics.Andy Povey: I've seen that, man.Paul Marden: So it was amazing. I thought I was going to be feeling really, really sick and that I wouldn't enjoy it, but it was amazing. So I had Emily with the camera in front of me. And within 10 seconds, I forgot that I was being recorded and that she was there. I was completely immersed in it. And I came off it afterwards feeling no motion sickness at all and just having had a real good giggle all the way through. I was grinning like, you know, the Cheshire Cat. Andy Povey: A grinning thing. Paul Marden: Yeah. So, tomorrow, what are you looking forward to?Andy Povey:  It's more of the same. It really is. There's going to be some sore heads after tonight's party at Tribodabo. We're all hoping the rain holds off long enough for it to be a great experience. But more of the same.Paul Marden: Well, let's meet back again tomorrow, shall we? Andy Povey: Completely. Paul Marden: Let's make a date.Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to today's episode from IAAPA Expo Europe. As always, if you've loved today's episode, like it and comment in your podcast app. If you didn't like it, let us know at hello@skipthequeue.fm. Show notes and links can also be found on our website, skipthequeue.fm. Thanks to our amazing team, Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle from Plaster Creative Communications, Steve Folland from Folland Co., and our amazing podcast producer, Wenalyn Dionaldo. Come back again tomorrow for more show news. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from creative mentor & workshop tutor, Sophie Roberts. She says:“Hi Frankie & Steve!I'm Sophie — a creative mentor and workshop tutor at West Plum Studio. I help people spend more time crafting.My question is around how to know where to draw the line between what you'll give away for free vs what you'll charge for in your business? In the crafting world there is so much free information available online. I've learnt lots over the years from generous free content that others have shared. I'm more than happy to share my own content for free but there does need to come a point where you start to charge otherwise it's just not a business! I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.Thanks!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Sophie Roberts' websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

We've well and truly kicked off season 7 in style as we welcome our first guest onto the show - IAAPA Board Chairman, Massimiliano Freddi. In this episode, Paul sits down with Massimiliano Freddi, the first Italian to ever hold the role of IAAPA Chairman in the association's 107-year history. From his early dream of running a theme park to founding Wonderwood and shaping Italy's unique attractions landscape, Massi shares how passion, storytelling, and a people-first mindset continue to drive his vision for the industry. Skip The Queue is back for Season 7 and we're announcing some big changes! Get ready for new hosts, a fresh new look, weekly content and find out where you can catch us live at events to be part of the action.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn, or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 24th September 2025. The winner will be contacted via LinkedIn or Bluesky. Show references:  https://iaapa.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/freddi/Massimiliano Freddi  a leading figure in the amusement and entertainment industry, has been appointed president of the steering committee of IAAPA (International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions, the leading international association for attractions and theme parks) for 2025. This is the first time since the foundation of the World Association of Attractions (1918) that this position has been entrusted to an Italian.The appointment underscores his extensive experience and significant contribution to the global industry. Freddi brings a wealth of experience gained at some of the industry's most prominent companies. His career began in marketing and press office for the Italian market at Disneyland Paris. He subsequently joined Leolandia.A visionary entrepreneur, in 2018, Massimiliano Freddi founded Wonderwood, an adventure and amusement park for all ages, of which he is currently CEO, in his hometown of Trarego Viggiona, in the Verbano-Cusio-Ossola region on Lake Maggiore. This growing business has redeveloped several local facilities and provided employment to several young residents of the small towns in the area. His passion for the sector also extends to academia. Since 2016, he has been a member of the coaching staff of Seth Godin's Altmba and is a professor of marketing and experience design at IULM University in Milan. At the same university, where Italy's first course in theme park and attraction management was introduced, he teaches subjects such as consumer experience, marketing, and soft skills as an adjunct professor. Freddi was also one of the original founders of Parksmania, the first newspaper dedicated to amusement parks.Freddi will continue to bring his innovative vision and deep industry knowledge to the global association, helping shape the future of attractions internationally. Regarding Italy, he commented that he sees great potential and wants to help realise it. Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best visitor attractions and the people that work in them. I'm Paul Marden, along with my co-hosts Andy Povey and Sinead Kimberley, I spend my days working with ambitious attractions like theme parks, museums, galleries, and science centres to help them to attract more guests. Paul Marden: Today on Skip the Queue, I'm joined by someone who has been shaping the attractions industry in truly remarkable ways. Massimiliano Freddi is the first Italian ever to hold the role of chairman in IAAPA's 107-year history. A milestone that not only celebrates his career, but also shines a light on Italy's growing influence in the global attractions landscape. Massimiliano has worn many hats across his journey, from fulfilling his childhood dream of becoming a Theme Park Managing Director at just 28, where he grew guest numbers from 300,000 to over 800,000, to founding his own destinations like Wonderwood on Lake Maggiore and Wonderwood Spina Verde, overlooking Lake Como. Along the way, he's pioneered inclusive and eco-conscious practices, championing the power of storytelling and shown how attractions can thrive by creating meaningful experiences for every guest.Paul Marden: Beyond his leadership roles, Massimiliano is also a Professor of Marketing and Experience Design at IULM University in Milan, where he's passionate about nurturing the next generation of talent in our sector. Often described as both a dreamer and a doer, he brings together vision and practicality in a way that continues to inspire operators around the world.Paul Marden: Massimilliano, welcome to the show. It really is a pleasure to have you with us. We always start Skip the Queue and the kickoff of season seven, no less, is going to be no different. We always start with an icebreaker question. And I'm thinking back to, we're just back off of our summer holidays, aren't we? For your perfect holiday, would it start with planes, trains or driving.Massimiliano Freddi: Oh, that's a beautiful question. By the way, congratulations because you've pronounced Massimiliano in a very correct way. So that's unusual. I have a complicated name. I know, I know.Massimiliano Freddi: Hey, I would say train. Train is really, really part of the way that I love to travel with. And unfortunately, too often it happens by car, which I like a little bit less. I get dizzy, you know, and stuff. Train is my ultimate, ultimate way to travel.Paul Marden: I did a sleeper train to Scotland a couple of years ago, and it was amazing. I absolutely loved it. And what's brilliant is there's more of those sleeper trains hitting Europe, aren't there now? So there really is very few excuses for us not to be holidaying with the start with some elegant sleeper train. My only disappointment was that there was no murder on the train, so I couldn't have an Agatha Christie style novel themed around my train  journey, but uh, you know.Massimiliano Freddi: I mean, I mean, it could have been the Hogwarts Express, but apparently, it doesn't run every day, so.Paul Marden: That would be pretty cool as well. I've just come back from Edinburgh, actually, and we saw, you know, the viaduct where the train goes to Hogwarts, and completely unplanned, there was a steam train that went over the bridge whilst we were there. It was amazing.Massimiliano Freddi: Happy go lucky.Paul Marden: Yeah. So enough of my holidays. Let's kick off talking about you and IAAPA. What can international markets learn from attractions in Italy? Tell us a little bit about the attractions landscape over there in Italy at the moment.Massimiliano Freddi: Yes. So let's say that the attraction landscape is very similar, somehow, to how the restaurants or the retail landscape has always been, which means a lot of mom and pop stores. And I think that what people who travel to Italy love is to find something that is one of a kind that you can find only in Italy. I have a deep respect for Starbucks, but I'm always... questioning myself, you know, when somebody comes to Italy, do they really want to find Starbucks? Is this a real thing? So when it comes to parks and attractions, Italy has not faced a big concentration in players like it has happened in other countries. Of course, some big players are there. Parques Reunidos owns Mirabilandia, which is the second most important Italian park. And the most important Italian park is Gardaland, owned by Merlin Entertainment. Then we have a few other groups. Owning and operating some of the facilities, but let's say that, out of 250 parks between—or, you said, attractions— that's very correct now, if we talk about attractions, now the number is endless, because where is the border?Paul Marden: What is an attraction? Yeah, that's a big philosophical question.Massimiliano Freddi: Okay, okay, so let's say that, once upon a time, we used to count parks. So when we talk about parks, we have roughly 250 parks in Italy, and most of them are tiny, tiny, tiny, and they are independently owned. That's my case. I own and operate two parks right now, and I'm about to open, a third location that will be an indoor one this November. And so, yes, I think that what what others can learn from Italy i think is to keep this respect for your roots and to make sure that you don't make every attraction look like another one, but you kind of keep it, you know, different.Massimiliano Freddi: And so it's a matter of the mix of how people can have fun and get entertained. But it's really also about retail and about food and about shows and festivals and you name it, you know. So there are these places that we see on Instagram and immediately we say, oh, that's, I mean, when I see a picture of the Empire State Building or of the Tower Bridge. I know immediately where it belongs to. And so I think that, with attractions, we need to think in the future always about this. Guests coming to visit us, they want to have the ultimate experience and they want to have something that's different from anything they've done before. So this is the responsibility we have.Paul Marden: And a big one it is. Let's talk a little bit about the experience economy. And especially when we think about, you know, beyond the parks, there's this... massive ecosystem around the outside of different ways that people can enjoy themselves. What does that experience economy mean to you, especially in Italy?Massimiliano Freddi: The experience economy, first of all, it truly matters to me, the book. Because in 1999, it was once upon a time, it was really difficult to find literature and scientific literature on the leisure industry. And so I think that at that time, we thought that everybody could take inspiration from the attractions industry. And it has happened because right now. Yes, definitely. You know, food is experience and travel is experience and lodging is experience. You name it, you name it. You know, even there is also a funeral house in Italy, which has become very famous because they are really based on the experience they will give, you know, not to the people who passed away, unfortunately, you know, but the people remain. So I think that it's very hard now to find an industry that doesn't think, that we are in the experience economy and that everything should be experienced and experiential. And so I think that when I go back to my example, I think that we as attractions, we need to be even more wise in how we choose to present ourselves and what we cater to our guests.Massimiliano Freddi: Because of course, we need to raise the bar. So right now, we know that some access... And some services to our attractions have become better with technology. But still, we are, you know, long lines sometimes. And we feel we are paying too much for what we are getting back.Massimiliano Freddi: I would say that in the end, experience economy starts with people and ends with people. And so we need to be people-centric. And only like this, we can be truly experiential. I don't think that an experience is about technology.  It's always, always about people.Paul Marden: Absolutely. I wonder as well, I'm always struck by this industry, how close we are, how we collaborate with one another. And really, the competition aren't the other parks or attractions. The competition is getting people out and doing something. There are so many things at home that could keep you at home, getting you out and about and visiting places and enjoying those experiences. I wonder whether collaboration is the answer to this.Massimiliano Freddi: I think you nailed it because it's crucial. Everybody who has not been working for this industry, when they enter the industry, because they might change jobs, everybody is so surprised that we collaborate so heavily. And I think that a key to this success has always been this big collaboration. I have almost always in my career been part of smaller facilities. And to me, IAAPA and the associations were, it's been crucial, you know, because you are alone. Very, very often your facility is in the middle of nowhere. No matter if you're part of a big group, because even big groups have facilities in the middle of nowhere, but for family-owned and operated attractions, that's almost the golden rule.Massimiliano Freddi: And so there are so many days in your life, in your career, in your profession, where you would benefit strongly from talking to somebody else who's been through something like you before and who's found a different solution and who can open up your eyes. So I think that's the beauty of our industries is getting together. Again, if we don't get together, how can we make people get together?Paul Marden: Yeah, I'm very excited about getting together because I've got my first IAAPA in Barcelona coming up. And I'm very excited about what this is going to be like.Massimiliano Freddi: Oh, you will be blown away.Paul Marden:  I can't wait. I absolutely can't wait. Now, look. Someone has once described you as a dreamer and a doer. One of your dreams was to be managing director of a theme park. Where did that inspiration come from?Massimiliano Freddi: So it comes from a terrible childhood. And so it comes from the fact that, yeah, the world around me when I was a kid was not a positive world. And my family had a lot of troubles. And I'm an orphan from the side of my mother. I mean, I went through several things. And so I think that the attractions industry, to me, it really meant this place that's always happy and where grownups can really take great care of kids and kids at heart.Massimiliano Freddi: So I think that my passion came out of that. Now, dreaming and doing, of course, we all have as a big myth and as a reference, Walt Disney himself, and he was the guy who first said, 'Dreamers and doers' talking about, what enterprises, so his imagineers. I think that whenever I see something, I want to say something. Everybody who knows me knows pretty well. But it means that I love to see the world in a constant improvement. So, if I check in at a hotel and I see that there is something in there that, you know, it even doesn't impact me. But with a small step, they could make it better and fix it. I just share it and I share it, you know, wherever I am. And so I think that maybe this was a bit of my secret weapon because I got involved in several things. I think because I'm curious and maybe because I'm generous in sharing.Massimiliano Freddi: And I don't know if there is a secret there. There is just that in the moment in which you accept yourself the way you are and you acknowledge that you have some talents, and you don't have some others, and some skills you can get better, some others no way—okay. I could never never be an attorney, I could never do a lot of jobs on the planet, but now I know, at the age of 44, that I know what I'm good at, and even if I'm good at that, I want to constantly improve. So I think that maybe the support that I could bring to the table to the companies I've worked for, to the associations, to my own business, and so on, it's always been this obsession with constant improvement every day.Paul Marden: I think it takes a certain vulnerability, doesn't it? To spot something that you think can be improved and to offer a suggestion. And I think it's so valuable. I was at an attraction recently and I got the email at the end of the day, saying, 'How was it?' Please leave us a review. I went to click it and it didn't work. I knew the head of marketing, so I just pinged him off a quick email that just said, 'Oh, I had such a brilliant time but I couldn't leave you a review. I wanted to give you a brilliant review, but I couldn't do it because it didn't work. And that led them to go and look at all of their outbound emails, and none of them were working properly. But you know, you could walk by and just leave that alone. But I can't do it. However, it is sometimes does make you feel really awkward, couldn't you? But when I get great services in a restaurant, when somebody looks after me while at an attraction, I want to tell them how good it was, and if I can see something they can do better, I want to tell them what they could do.Massimiliano Freddi:  Totally, totally. And I'm so much on the same page. I was about to say that it's equally important to call people out when they're doing well.Paul Marden: Yeah.Massimiliano Freddi: So to make sure that they are aware. And sometimes, you know, to say there was one day where I travelled during a bank holiday, and I arrived at the entire bank holiday, and I arrived to the airport, and I decided I wanted to thank each and every employee that I would meet because they were there that day. I mean. We got used that Sundays are no longer Sundays, but the bank holidays, these are the moments in which you spend time with your family and with your kids and so on. And if you're there and you're working, I mean, it's good that somebody sees you and tells you, 'Hey, thank you because you're working even today, you know?' And you can tell how everybody gets surprised. So I think that we learn so much more by positive reinforcement.Massimiliano Freddi: And so how important it is also to tell attractions, facilities, managers, CEOs. I mean, CEOs, they are so used to just getting... I can't use swear words. Yes, you can. Under those kind of storms, you know, all the time, all the time. And so when a CEO does something good, come on, let's tell her.Paul Marden: Yeah, it's a really lonely job. And all you get is... is the spankings and the tellings off. Isn't it? So when they get it right, they definitely need a pat on the back because they're not going to get it. They're not going to get it. So I can't believe this. At the age of 28, you made your dream come true and you were managing director of a theme park in Italy for Minitalia, which became Leolandia, in this role you took guest numbers from 300, 000 guests a year to over 800,000.Paul Marden: Tell us that story. How do you so dramatically increase footfall at the attraction?Massimiliano Freddi: I don't think it was me. I think it was a great teamwork because it's a great teamwork, you know, and you can grow this much. If your operation is working very well, if your safety is right on spot, if the park is clean, you know, and so on. I can tell you one thing that when we were at the basic level, so at the very beginning, of course, we couldn't afford to buy big attractions or too heavily themed. And we needed really, I remember that the first Halloween, we had a 10K budget, 10,000 euro budget for a whole month of Halloween. Okay, so we would go to the do-it-yourself stores and buy brooms and build everything. I mean, that was a magical moment because it created the capability of the team to envision that, if you want, you can do with the things you have. And of course, with a huge budget, you can do fantastic things.Massimiliano Freddi: But sometimes, you know, this helps. So in that moment... TripAdvisor was a true success still. We're talking about 20 years ago. So TripAdvisor was kind of the reference. That's even before Google Maps and all that. So I remember that I did an analysis and I understood that every restaurant or park who had over 4. 5 out of 5 was growing. And having 4 out of 5 was not enough. Now we call it NPS, we call it a different way. But there, in this practical way, so I remember this moment with my team saying, 'Hey, we need to be obsessed with getting five stars.' And this is the point. So what can we do? First of all, we can have the cleanest toilets on earth. Let's make sure that the smell is good, they are super clean, and so on. Because people, that's a level of service. Of course, this is not a driver of visit, but this is a driver of satisfaction. And in the same way, let's start to work with better suppliers when it comes to food and beverage.Massimiliano Freddi: Let's start to make things more comfortable. So I think that this was the first thing. The second aspect, again, it's very much linked to IAAPA because I think that attending the show every year and knowing the people. At that time, Jakob Wahl, he used to be one of the employees of IAAPA in Brussels. I don't think he was a manager at the time yet. He was in charge of keeping relationships with members. So I reached out to him. We are the same age. I reached out to him and I said, 'Hey, I would love to visit a few facilities in other countries because I need to get fresh ideas.' It was a very delicate moment. We came out of two bad seasons due to bad weather. Because then you know, you don't go from here to here as a straight line, but always as this roller coaster. And in a moment you think, 'Oh, I made it.' There's a dip.Paul Marden: Yeah.Massimiliano Freddi: You can never sleep. And so he put me in contact with several facilities. I visited some in Belgium, in the Netherlands, and in the UK. And in the UK, I visited this, at that time, small park still called Paulton's Park. You might know that. I remember it was a weekday with bad weather and the parking lot was packed. And I was like, 'How comes?' Kids are not at school today. What is the point? I enter the park. The park is, yeah, not so crowded. So I really suspect that they are, you know, keeping the people all shut down together in a place. I don't know. I don't know what the point was. And then I enter the Peppa Pig's World.Massimiliano Freddi: And it blows my mind. And again, what blows my mind is that it didn't have any huge attraction. But it had that feeling. And people were just so happy. It was magic. Little kids there with their families, a lot of strollers all over the place, traffic jams due to strollers. And so I came back and I said, 'Hey, we need to get Peppa Pig.' And I remember that the team was like, 'It can't happen.' It has happened. In the end, we were the second park in the world after Paulton's Park to get Peppa. And that reshaped the entire strategy of the park we had at that time, turning it into what we wanted to achieve, is to become the best park for the kids under the age of 10 in Southern Europe. And best means really the best, rated from the bottom of the heart. And so this is what has happened. So I think that, you know, before Leolandia, I had worked for Disneyland Paris and I'm a big Disney fan. So that was kind of the school I had attended and I just had to apply. The theory that I've learned, I had to apply it, and I had a fantastic team and the resources to do that.Paul Marden: Amazing. Now, fast forward to 2018, and you've taken the step from MD to founder and founded Wonderwood on Lake Maggiore. Now, let's test my Italian. You've also founded Wonderwood Spina Verde. Massimiliano Freddi: I'm speechless. I can't correct anything.Paul Marden: Wonderful. Overlooking Lake Como, both of which, by the way, were... So I've been to Maggiore and Lake Como for my honeymoon. So a beautiful, beautiful place. And you've put two parks there. How has that been?Massimiliano Freddi:  It has been crazy. So I remember that the first year, and I mean, we created the company at the end of 2018. We've opened our gates in the summer of 2019. Now, if we all remember what has happened at the beginning of 2020.Paul Marden: Yeah.Massimiliano Freddi: Okay, so perfect timing. Now, I can tell you that the first season, every day, I would literally cry, but for real.Massimilliano Freddi: I was exhausted. My husband was exhausted. We thought that this was a nightmare, the worst possible nightmare. And if somebody had knocked on my door and asked me, 'Hey, could I just take it over?' I don't give you a penny. I will just take home the loans. I would have said yes. And that's because, of course, every project is over budget. Of course. No matter. No matter.Massimiliano Freddi: And when it's a family company and you don't have the money because you've contracted several loans and so on, it makes it super, super difficult. So in that moment, my call for action was because the possibility of Lake Maggiore was in the town where I spent every summer as a kid. So it was a love story. And I wanted to give back to the community. I wanted to do something in the nature that would inspire kids to hike more. To become more active and just not only to stay in front of a screen, but to do something different. So that came out of this kind of dream. And so it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare at the very beginning. Then COVID hit and we were very lucky, of course, because we didn't lose anyone from our families and friends. So I am very thankful for that. And at the same time, it gave us the possibility to stop for a second, rewind, and refine our strategy.Massimiliano Freddi: Because we had just closed the park in, I mean, the week before Christmas, and we were supposed to reopen in less than three months, but we were exhausted. So I'm telling this story because usually it's so nice to tell that the triumphs, you know, and say, 'Hey, it's been fantastic.' Yeah, we nailed it. We had, no, we made 200 mistakes.Massimiliano Freddi: And we paid for all the mistakes. So I think that in that moment, yeah, we were struggling at the beginning. We were reflecting in the middle part. And then three years ago, two to three years ago, I woke up one morning and I understood that I really loved what I was doing. And it had changed. It had changed. And seeing so many families happy and so many people visiting and seeing... How many young professionals or students started to work with us and then you see them leaping? I think that this is the most beautiful thing on earth. It's very empowering. So right now I'm in this situation where I am so grateful for this entire six years, even if they started in a way that was very, very heavy. But, you know, the Latins used to say 'per aspera ad astra.' It means... 'towards the stars through the asperities.' And so we need to go through that thing, that tunnel.Paul Marden: Absolutely. Now, as if founding your own parks wasn't enough, you also mix your time as a professor at the university. I can hear from what you were talking about, about bringing the young professionals into the park, that there's an element to you of apprenticeship almost, of teaching that next cohort of people that are going to come and take over the world.Paul Marden: How exciting is that for you to be able to mix that in at the university?Massimiliano Freddi: It's fantastic. It's fantastic. And again, it came out of passion. It came out. I didn't do a PhD after my university. My career wasn't supposed to be the academic one. And I didn't trust I would be able to do that. And then I got called for a lecture, then two lectures, and three lectures. And then, right now, I have several courses at university.Massimiliano Freddi: There's a point. The point is that, if we meet between our age of 14, 14, 15, until our 25, and if we narrow it down, it's between maybe 16 and 22, this is the moment in which it's more important to meet some mentors. And most of us don't meet mentors. They meet nice people around them, giving them very nice advice based on their experience and not seeing the talents they have in front of them. And in several cases, we are scared. We think that we are not enough. And so I really think that it's such a huge privilege for me to be able to be at university and to meet so many hundreds of students every year and to try to make my small impact so that, first of all, they can believe in themselves and they can believe that the world can be a better place, even if right now it's kind of a tough moment. But from tough moments, again, we can learn things.Massimiliano Freddi: Even at IAAPA, one of the things that I really am passionate more about is what are the spaces we can create for young professionals and students. So I want to give two very short examples. The IAAPA Foundation has evolved a lot over the last few years. We were able to collect so many more donations.Massimiliano Freddi: And now, this year, it will be a record-breaking year when it comes to scholarships to which students can apply in universities around the globe. So I think that's... But to me and to all of us in the board of the IAAPA Foundation, that's like the starting point. We are here celebrating because it's a big achievement and then we look each other in the eyes and say, 'Okay, now what's next?' Now, how can we make sure that the impact is even bigger? And if we go on the side of IAAPA, I think we are very... We pay a lot of attention to make sure that the membership fees are very low for the people entering. The word of leisure. Just a few weeks ago, it got launched on the IAAPA job board that whoever has a company and wants to post an internship, that's free to post. So that, you know, there could be thousands of internships available for students.Massimiliano Freddi: Of course, as a big association, we are used to talk to members and maybe older members because we visit facilities and we visit manufacturers and we need to deal with safety and stuff. But students and young professionals are not on the back of my head. They are like near and dear to my heart. And so my real question is: when this year ends in a couple of months, how can I dedicate myself even more to contribute to young people? Because I think that they are making a change. They will make a change. And we are learning so much from them because the work we are leaving you and me right now. I have bad news. It's no longer our world. We don't have the code to decode that. So we don't have the keys. We can just support people that are better than us and make sure that they can live, that they can teach, that they can learn.  That's a bit of what I see.Paul Marden: I completely agree with you. I think it's interesting because you talk about what you're giving, but you're also getting something back. This is not entirely altruistic, is it? The support that you're giving for these young people and early career professionals, you're getting something back, enriching yourself and learning new things from them.Massimiliano Freddi: Always, always. And I think that, you know, I don't always teach. Market leisure marketing and stuff— you know, I teach marketing at a at a Master's Degree in Management of Beauty and Wellness, total different industry, you know, food and wine. As I was telling, but what I bring home every time is how much young people need to feel seen and, and this is truly important because if we create for them not a safe zone, because of course we want them to get messy. We want them to take risks, but they need to feel safe as humans and they need to feel safe as seen. And so I appreciate a lot this because then the energy that I... And you know, when we talk about IAAPA, we have so many ambassadors that have been contributing to the IAAPA trade shows and events all over the globe. We have young people joining the committees.Massimiliano Freddi: Right now, there are a few, more than a few young professional task forces around the globe that are really helping us, old people, to understand what they need. So I think that we are at the very beginning. And if I could say a dream out loud, I wish that IAAPA in five or ten years, maybe in five years, can multiply the number of young engaged people in the association by 100. 10 is not enough. 20 is by 100. We need to make an impact. And I think we want to make an impact. So hopefully.Paul Marden: Well, there's an ambition for you. And I think every... worthwhile project— every it always starts with that kind of ambitious goal— at the very beginning of it you need to be driven by that  hundred times impact not the 10 times impact we we always like to finish our interviews with a book recommendation, fiction, non-fiction, industry-related or not, give us a view uh into your reading habits, okay, so can I mention more than one book? You bankrupt me because I always offer the book recommendation as a prize for people, but you can have more than one.Massimiliano Freddi: Okay. Okay. Thank you because I'm a big reader. So the first author that I would love to mention is J. K. Rowling because Harry Potter is not just a story of a kid or of magic, but it's a story of a woman who was a bit desperate. And then... She followed what she was feeling. She allowed her emotions to flow. And she has created a masterpiece. And she has impacted us all, you know, no matter business-related, non-business-related, and so on. So I think that, to read again, the first Harry Potter book, it's very important because it brings us back to some reason why, you know, and to some things. The second book that I would love to mention is a book written by Seth Godin. I have had the privilege to work for Seth for several years.Paul Marden: Really?Massimiliano Freddi: And yeah, he's an amazing guy. He's an amazing guy. And come on, he's such a generous person and he's amazing.Massimiliano Freddi: I don't have any other words that's amazing. He wrote a book maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago called Linchpin. And Linchpin is not his most famous book, but it's the book that changed my life because it really nudges you. In a gentle and not so gentle way sometimes. No, I'm saying in a gentle way. It nudges you to don't set for what you have, but to see your inner talents and to innovate and to be creative, be generous, and so on. So, Linchpin to me is the book that changed it all for me. So, I think that everybody, young, less young, everybody should read once in a lifetime.Paul Marden: I feel like I need to go and read this because that is one Seth Godin book I have not read. So there we go. Listeners, if you would like a copy of Linchpin, then the first person that heads over to LinkedIn and reposts our show notice and says, 'I want Massimiliano's book' and can spell Massimiliano correctly, will have a copy of the book sent to them. We've got IAAPA Europe taking place next week in Barcelona.Paul Marden: And we have a very special Skip the Queue announcement. We are going to be hitting the show floor on a daily basis. We are going to go live for daily episodes of Skip the Queue from the show floor. We're going to be talking to operators about what their challenges are like. Finding out what new supplier announcements are coming out. And the Skip the Queue team is going to be feverishly working away. We'll be recording during the day and Steve and Wenalyn will be editing and producing through the night, ready to post the show the following morning. So I'm very excited about that.Massimiliano Freddi: And I think we are super excited to have you guys on the trade show floor. And I recommend... Of course, visiting it, making the most out of it, and don't underestimate the fantastic education sessions that take place. There is a strong lineup of speakers that will impact the way that the industry will be in a few years. So, great opportunity.Paul Marden:  How's that for a trailer? That sounds amazing. Massimilliano, it really has been a pleasure to talk to you.Massimiliano Freddi: Thank you so much, Paul, for me as well. And see you in Barcelona.Paul Marden: Yes, how exciting. Looking forward to it.Paul Marden: Remember, if you'd like a copy of today's book, head over to LinkedIn and repost our show notice saying, 'I want a copy of Massimiliano's book.' If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on your podcasting platform. It really helps people to find the show. If you didn't enjoy it, or you've got ideas about how we could improve the show, then let us know at hello@skipthequeue.fm. My thanks to Massimiliano and his team at IAAPA for their help with this episode. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, the digital agency that creates amazing websites for ambitious visitor attractions. This episode was written by Emily Burrows, produced by Wenalyn Dionaldo and edited by Steve Folland. To Skip the Queue team, also includes Sami Entwistle, Sinead Kimberley, Claire Furnival, and Andy Povey. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from strategy and planning specialist Sophie Greenwood. She says:“Hi Frankie & Steve,I'm writing this while feeding my baby in a sensory room. True story!Anyway, I'm going to be rebranding and renaming my business in the autumn, and wondered if you had any advice for what steps I could take between now and then to make it land with a bang? The rebrand has already been done with a designer (Mad About The Brand) — it's all ready. I just want to make sure it cuts through the noise and makes some waves.I'm also coming back from maternity leave very soon — so it's all a lot of change at once!Would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Sophie Greenwood's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi•••This episode is supported by With Jack.With Jack protects sole traders and limited companies on the high seas of freelancing so you're free to navigate uncharted territories and fish for amazing projects. With Jack is all about insurance for freelance creatives. Simple. That doesn't mean more forms or faff — it means less. It's not about endless features and stale service — it's about one solid policy and the personal touch.With Jack is a trading style of Ashley Baxter Limited which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. You can check this by visiting the Financial Services Register.https://withjack.co.uk/why-do-i-need-insurance/

Today, Steve's answering questions about –When a podcaster can take the leap and build a paid product/serviceThe calling yourself a 'freelancer' vs 'business owner' debateSteve's process around subcontracting and hiring other freelancers to work on projects with himLinks:Get the transcript hereListen to Steve's Mistakes That Made Me interview: Putting All Your (Client) Eggs in One BasketLoving the podcast?Support the show and leave a rating or review here: https://ratethispodcast.com/mistakesGet the BTS scoop on how this podcast is made in this bonus episode: https://emancopyco.com/btsWork with Eman Copy Co. to power up your email strategy, your launches, and your revenueFill in the enquiry form on this contact page: https://emancopyco.com/contact/Want to learn with me?Take Eman's “What's Your Perfect Newsletter Style?” quiz: https://www.emancopyco.com/quiz Check out my courses and masterclasses: https://emancopyco.com/learn-with-me/Say hi

When Steve Folland's *only* client let him go, he'd just quit his full-time job to go all in on his audio and video editing business. Being jobless and clientless couldn't have come at a worse time. Steve's wife had just gone on maternity leave and they had a brand new (4-month-old) baby – plus an older child too!In this Oldie But Goodie convo, Steve – also the host of the ‘Being Freelance' podcast – shares his entrepreneurial journey, how he diversified his skills and services, and what he learned from his biggest business mistake.Find the transcript of this episode on my website emancopyco.com/podcastLinks for this episode:Being Freelance - https://www.beingfreelance.comSteve Folland's website - https://stevefolland.comSteve Folland on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/beingfreelance/If you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram, and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. Don't forget to tag me! @emancopycoLoving the podcast?Support the show and leave a rating or review here: https://ratethispodcast.com/mistakesGet the BTS scoop on how this podcast is made in this bonus episode: https://emancopyco.com/btsWork with Eman Copy Co. to power up your email strategy, your launches, and your revenueFill in the enquiry form on this contact page: https://emancopyco.com/contact/Want to learn with me?Take Eman's “What's Your Perfect Newsletter Style?” quiz: https://www.emancopyco.com/quiz Check out my courses and masterclasses: https://emancopyco.com/learn-with-me/Say hi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Anonymous. They say:“I'm subcontracting on a project with a fellow freelancer. I like them, and working with them has been great. The project however, has been anything but. The clients are difficult, their working patterns don't fit with mine, and their constant changes have added to our workload many times.My question is —How do I maintain my relationship with the freelancer (with the hope of working with them again) while telling them that I don't want to do phase two of the project? I only signed up for phase one, but the client is acting as though phase two is a done deal, so I need to extricate myself without the other freelancer feeling like I've left them in the lurch! Help!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi•••This episode is supported by With Jack.With Jack protects sole traders and limited companies on the high seas of freelancing so you're free to navigate uncharted territories and fish for amazing projects. With Jack is all about insurance for freelance creatives. Simple. That doesn't mean more forms or faff — it means less. It's not about endless features and stale service — it's about one solid policy and the personal touch.With Jack is a trading style of Ashley Baxter Limited which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. You can check this by visiting the Financial Services Register.https://withjack.co.uk/why-do-i-need-insurance/

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Anonymous. They say:“How do you tell clients ‘I don't want to attend that bloody meeting'!? I know meetings are needed (could have been an email though!) but my clients are now adding me to monthly all staff meetings, staff outings etc. I don't even think all the staff realise I'm a freelancer?? It just ties up so much of my time and I also don't actually care about holidays/xmas dos etc as I'M SELF EMPLOYED. Help!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi•••This episode is supported by With Jack.With Jack protects sole traders and limited companies on the high seas of freelancing so you're free to navigate uncharted territories and fish for amazing projects. With Jack is all about insurance for freelance creatives. Simple. That doesn't mean more forms or faff — it means less. It's not about endless features and stale service — it's about one solid policy and the personal touch.With Jack is a trading style of Ashley Baxter Limited which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. You can check this by visiting the Financial Services Register.https://withjack.co.uk/why-do-i-need-insurance/

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Anonymous. They say:“Hi Frankie and Steve,I was asked by an organisation recently how much I'd charge to redesign a publication they produce three times a year, with a view to then designing that along with other publications for them going forward.Problem is, I sent the price in and now I'm convincing myself I've undercharged for the amount of work it will be… Kicking myself for letting the imposter syndrome voices in.What would you do? Suck it up because it's your mistake, or go back to them and correct yourself so you don't kick yourself each time you work on it (providing I get the job)? Have you ever revised a quote after sending it?Thanks!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi•••This episode is supported by With Jack.With Jack protects sole traders and limited companies on the high seas of freelancing so you're free to navigate uncharted territories and fish for amazing projects. With Jack is all about insurance for freelance creatives. Simple. That doesn't mean more forms or faff — it means less. It's not about endless features and stale service — it's about one solid policy and the personal touch.With Jack is a trading style of Ashley Baxter Limited which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. You can check this by visiting the Financial Services Register.https://withjack.co.uk/why-do-i-need-insurance/

In this episode, I chat with Frankie Tortora, the founder of the Doing it for the Kids community and fellow graphic designer and podcaster! Frankie shares her experiences, challenges, and rewards in building a thriving community for freelancing parents and, as I'm sure you'd expect, is super honest about some of the harsh realities of it. Whether you're considering starting a membership or a community, this episode is a really juicy deep dive into what it takes to do it. Key Takeaways: Building a community is not as easy as it looks; it requires a lot of emotional labor and dedication. It is important to differentiate between building a community and building an audience, as they are not the same. Engaging with the community and modeling desired behavior is crucial for creating a positive and supportive environment. Dealing with churn is one of the biggest challenges of running a community. The rewards of building a community, such as seeing members connect and support each other, are invaluable. Episode Highlights: 01:47 Frankie's Journey: From Freelancer to Community Builder 04:09 Challenges and Triumphs of Managing a Growing Community 07:17 Transitioning to a Paid Community Model  09:52 Understanding the Difference Between Community and Audience 22:06 Balancing Community Management with Freelance Work  About the Guest: Frankie Tortora is the founder of the Doing it for the Kids community, an award-winning podcast, and a graphic designer. Community Website: doingitforthekids.net Graphic Design Website: francescatortora.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ftortora Mentioned in the Episode: Circle (community platform) Penny Wincer (writer) Steve Folland (co-host of the "Doing it for the Kids" podcast and founder of the Being Freelance community) End Credits: I would love to hear what you think of this episode, so please do let me know on Instagram where I'm @‌lizmmosley or @‌buildingyourbrandpodcast and I hope you enjoy the episode! This episode was written and recorded by me and produced by Lucy Lucraft (http://lucylucraft.co.uk ) If you enjoyed this episode please leave a 5* rating and review!

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Anonymous. They say:“Dear Frankie and Steve,A retainer client of mine gave notice over the weekend (her business is quiet and she can't afford to keep us on) but it's got me thinking and feeling a bit stuck.I feel like *something is going to happen* — like a shift is coming? — but I can't quite put my finger on it or work it out, and I've decided I want to do this myself rather than doing some coaching etc.I suppose my question is… What do you and Steve do when you feel like this? Do you ever feel like this??Any tips or advice for working things out on your own?Thanks!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi•••This episode is supported by With Jack.With Jack protects sole traders and limited companies on the high seas of freelancing so you're free to navigate uncharted territories and fish for amazing projects. With Jack is all about insurance for freelance creatives. Simple. That doesn't mean more forms or faff — it means less. It's not about endless features and stale service — it's about one solid policy and the personal touch.With Jack is a trading style of Ashley Baxter Limited which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. You can check this by visiting the Financial Services Register.https://withjack.co.uk/why-do-i-need-insurance/

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Detective Don Burns aka Anonymous. They say:“Hi Frankie and Steve!I have a childcare question for you…With our first born, we never considered putting her in nursery. I reduced my hours at my (employed) job and my partner and I shared looking after her by working alternate days.This time around I'm self-employed, and with my partner now working 5 days a week, I'm only able to work after 4pm which is really hard. I'm getting work done, but it's incredibly difficult to get motivated to work at that time.Our youngest is now 2 and therefore qualifies for the 15 ‘free' hours a week. But we both feel incredibly guilty about thinking of using a nursery, even for a couple of afternoons a week. I personally feel like I'm being selfish, because we are making it work at the moment without formal childcare, and the number 1 reason we'd put him in a nursery would be so I can work during the day a bit more.Sooo, can I have your pros and cons for using paid-for childcare when you're in a situation like mine? When you don't NEED to.Thank youPs. I'd like a detective name please”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Katie Beardsley — Owner at Willow & Woods, Life of Sprout, and And Other Memories:Katie says: “Hi Frankie & Steve,I'm at a stage with my business where I know what I want to be doing and where it is going, but I need to get myself out there more. With 3 young kids, 3 small businesses, a dog and a tortoise... I don't need to tell you, but I really don't have the time to be doing the marketing that I need to be doing. Especially as I am useless at it and don't really know what I'm doing! So I'm thinking about hiring some PR help but this doesn't come cheap. I'm sitting on the fence, umming and ahhing over it because I know that I *can* do it myself, but I don't want to get it wrong. But I also don't want to spend money on something that might not work (which has happened in the past). So after my very long intro — my question is this:How do you know when the right time to be spending money on a business is? Are there certain markers I should be reaching financially, or audience wise before I consider signing up to what is likely to be a minimum 3-month contract? What do I do? My brain is going round and round in circles!Thanks,Katie”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Willow and Woods websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Anonymous.They say…“I'm struggling to get back into the rhythm of creating content consistently.This isn't just an after-Christmas thing, this is an after-the-summer-last-year thing.I used to create every week without fail and I know people like what I do. And I even know it made a difference to my business, but I struggled with even once a month for the second half of the year.What do you think? How can I get my making mojo back?”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.•••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

The Small Business Sessions, Enterprise Nation's podcast, is back for a seventh exciting series of inspiring entrepreneurial stories and expert business tips! The podcast is powered by the business.connected online training programme and our partners Vodafone Business, Constant Contact, JP Morgan and Dropbox.Joining freelance journalist Dan Martin for the ninth and final episode in the current series is Steve Folland, a freelancer podcaster and video editor. With a long career in radio, Steve went freelance in 2013 and hasn't looked back! Alongside his work creating videos and podcasts for other people, he launched his own show, Being Freelance, in January 2015, followed by the Being Freelance vlog in 2016. Steve, who has been using Dropbox since 2013, also runs the Being Freelance community and is the co-host of Doing It For The Kids, a podcast for freelance parents which won gold for Best Business Podcast at the British Podcast Awards in 2021.In the show, Dan and Steve discuss topics including:how to succeed as a freelancerhow to set your prices as a freelancerhow to win new freelancer clientstech tools to boost productivity and efficiencythe impact of AI on the creative sectorDropbox is the one place to keep life organised and keep work moving. Tools include Dropbox, File Request, Dropbox Replay and Dropbox Sign.Big thanks for tuning into series seven of the Small Business Sessions. Look out for series eight in January 2025! -----The business.connected hub is a free online training programme of workshops, webinars and e-learning modules designed to help businesses go digital and adopt new technology.To find out more, go to www.enterprisenation.com/businessconnectedFor a free one-to-one consultation with an expert business adviser from Vodafone's V-Hub, visit www.vodafone.co.uk/business/sme-business/small-business-advice/personal-adviceTo listen to previous podcast episodes, go to www.enterprisenation.com/podcast

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from graphic designer Kiemia Farrow.Kiemia says: “Hi Frankie and Steve!I've been full-time freelance since 2020 (brave or stupid one month into a global pandemic?? You decide) and now have over 15 years of agency, in-house and freelance experience behind me.I charge by the hour and have some fabulous clients who trust the process and appreciate the timesheets I keep when I invoice them at the end of the month.I never quote up front, in fact, I refuse to do so because I am so bad at working out how long projects might take…!However, my question is — how do I know what my hourly rate should be? I never hear *anyone* discuss their hourly rate, and I am finding it quite a challenge to figure out if I am ‘doing it right' or not?I currently charge £50 an hour for existing clients, and all new clients I have moved to a new rate of £65 an hour. I have had no one complain or question it, I have not lost a client from it, but at the same time, I don't want to run the risk of losing a client or scaring away potential new clients if I am wayyyyyy off the mark in terms of pricing.How is everyone working this stuff out??Thank you for the fabulous work you both do, keep it up!Kiemia”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Kiemia Farrow's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi 

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Louise Jenkins who supports women with their transition into motherhood, and develops and facilitates workshops in partnership with organisations working to end violence against women and girls.Louise says: “Hi Frankie & Steve,With Wildling now at school, technically I have ‘more time' available to me spread out over a full week.*Chokes on tea because we all know ‘more time' is bullsh*t — have you seen the amount of school-related admin there is?!*Anyway. So far so good. But I need help managing this newfound time, and how to make the ‘best' of it I suppose? I'm battling with setting boundaries, and how to approach and commit to new or potential partners/clients, as well as finding space for MYSELF too.I'm slowly finding a groove. But would love to know how you and everybody in DIFTK found this shift?Thanks! Louise”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Louise Jenkins' websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

This episode was recorded with and is sponsored by Riverside. Head to https://creators.riverside.fm/lizmosley to check it out and use the code lizmosley for a 15% discount. In this episode, I chat with award winning freelance video and podcast editor Steve Folland to discuss the intimacy of podcasting, sonic branding, and the impact of podcasting on business. Steve shares insights from his successful podcasts 'Being Freelance' and 'Doing It for the Kids', his experiences with client work, and the evolution of his podcast community. We cover topics from how to market your podcast, the value of consistent audio elements, and the benefits of repurposing content. Steve also offers advice for those hesitant to start a podcast and talks about his passion for podcast editing. Tune in for valuable tips and behind-the-scenes stories!  Episode highlights:  05:51 The Power of Community and Podcasting 16:47 Private Podcasts and Monetization Strategies 31:35 The Value of Podcasting 49:54 Sonic Branding Don't forget to check out Steve online and follow him on Instagram! If you'd like to have a chat come find me on Instagram. Can't wait to connect with you. This episode was written and produced by me and edited by Lucy Lucraft. If you enjoyed this episode please leave a 5* rating and review!   

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from graphic designer Ange Lyons.Ange says: “Hi Frankie & Steve!Do you think it's possible to market yourself as a freelancer in 2024 without using social media? Particularly if you *hate* showing your face?Thanks! Ange”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Ange Lyons' websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from marketing consultant Ayo Abbas.Ayo says: “Hi Frankie & Steve,It's tough out there right now — what do you think is the quickest way freelancers can make something happen in terms of winning work?Thanks, Ayo”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Ayo Abbas' websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from wedding florist Esme Ford.Esme says: “Hi Frankie & Steve!I am giving a 10 minute talk next week and I need your help.Public speaking is something I never do, so I had a little practice and filmed myself doing my talk and my voice is soooooo wishy washy. I hate it when I ‘ummm' a lot so try to actively pause instead, but then the flow of the talk is all wrong?I just feel like my voice has no authority!How do you both make your voice sound so clear and confident? Have you always been good at speaking or have you just improved with time?Thanks!Esme”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Esme Ford's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Detective Babs Harris aka Anonymous.“I work with corporate clients around workshop facilitation and keynote speaking. My question is around pricing transparency. I am finding that I am getting lots of enquiries (which I am very grateful for!). Most of the time I respond via email with my fees and the potential client doesn't have the budget. I would say this happens three quarters of the time. My fees are probably higher than average but I'm happy with the price point and the value I offer and I have lots of repeat clients that I work with closely. It's not a major admin task to respond to each enquiry individually but collectively over a month or so it can take up quite a bit of time. So I am looking at reviewing how I do things. I'm keen to understand what others do and why. Do they: 1. Display prices on your website? 2. Send fees in response to an enquiry, prior to setting up a meeting with the potential client? 3. Meet with the potential client first and then send prices after? Which approach do you think is best for maximising revenue, building relationships but also protecting time?"What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Detective Roxanne Maxwell aka Anonymous.She says…“I had a situation recently where I responded to somebody who I know really well offering to help me with something. I said yes, appreciated the service they did for me and I paid them for that service.Afterwards, they asked if I'd be happy to give a testimonial and I said, ‘sure — how about you draft something and I'll tweak it?' They sent me something. I tweaked their words so it was more like me and shortened it so it wasn't so gushy because… you know how some services just go the extra mile and they're brilliant and you were wax lyrical about them because you loved them so much? Well, this wasn't one of those situations. But nor was it a shit service. It was just… bang for your buck type stuff.Since then my endorsement has been used as a propeller for this particular service in online spaces and it's just made me feel really uncomfortable.It's made me really think about how we ask people for testimonials, but also, how we use those testimonials and how that lands with the person we've asked. Now I know it's really important to get testimonials, and I know it's really important to bang our own drums and promote ourselves — but is there a way to do that without making the people we've asked feel icky?I mean, should have I said — ‘happy for you to use this, but could you not plaster it everywhere, everyday, for 50 weeks of the year?!' (which is how it feels at the moment) Because, if I'm honest, this experience is going to make me reluctant to give testimonials in the future and I would hate for any of my clients to feel like that.”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

When Steve Folland's *only* client let him go, he'd just quit his full-time job to go all in on his audio and video editing business. Being jobless and clientless couldn't have come at a worse time. Steve's wife had just gone on maternity leave and they had a brand new (4-month-old) baby – plus an older child too! In this conversation, Steve – also the host of the ‘Being Freelance' podcast – shares his entrepreneurial journey, how he diversified his skills and services, and what he learned from his biggest business mistake. Find the transcript of this episode on my website emancopyco.com/podcast. Links for this episode: Join the podcast's $11 private membership and unlock bonus content: https://emancopyco.com/membership Being Freelance - https://www.beingfreelance.com Steve Folland's website - https://stevefolland.com Steve Folland on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/beingfreelance/ If you loved this episode, take a screenshot, post it on Instagram, and tell everyone you know that this is the podcast to listen to. Don't forget to tag me! @emancopyco-------- Loving the podcast? Join the podcast's $11 private membership and unlock bonus content: https://emancopyco.com/membership Support the show and leave a rating or review here: https://ratethispodcast.com/mistakes Get the BTS scoop on how this podcast is made in this bonus episode: https://emancopyco.com/bts Work with Eman Copy Co. to power up your email strategy, your launches, and your revenue Fill in the enquiry form on this contact page: https://emancopyco.com/contact/ Want to learn with me? Check out my courses and masterclasses: https://emancopyco.com/learn-with-me/ Say hi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from project management expert Nina Lenton.Nina says: “As well as my work as a freelance project director and manager, I have a blog on the subject of everyday joy (in life and work), which I write on every now and then.  I'd like to do more with it, but am afraid I could easily spend all of my time doing that instead of paid work, which of course isn't really sensible!How do people who have similar side projects (blog, podcast etc) manage to balance it with paid work (or even manage to get paid something for doing the side project)?”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Nina Lenton's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Lametta Truffleballs AKA Anonymous.They say…“Hi Frankie & Steve,I see a lot of freelancers ‘doing good' with their business, donating x % to the planet or to another good cause. I really like this idea, but — with two small children, one of which is still in a private nursery — I feel like I just don't have the spare money to do this? Should I just suck it up and do it anyway??Help!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Colin Parks AKA Anonymous.They say…“Hi Frankie and SteveI've worked for a company (employed) for over 12 years. It's grown from 50 people to a 5,000+ strong agency.I work with digital technology as an Account Director and I've managed some decent clients. My key skills are listening to, understanding and challenging client requirements, and then translating them into actionable, achievable outcomes. I have the soft skills of technology, but I don't code. I'm now fed up with the increasing internal hierarchy, unnecessary process bollocks and the required emphasis on being seen to do things (like PowerPoint decks) rather than actually achieving valuable outcomes for clients.Anyway, I'm currently on 3 months of gardening leave so I have some time to plan my goals, brush up on skills, and, of course, do some gardening…Ultimately, I want to go freelance, but I don't want to be known as a “C” word (Consultant) as I intend to actually roll my sleeves up and do work such as designing Proof of Concepts, helping their development teams and deciding on the right technology.What advice can you give someone wanting to go freelance when it's about services and outcomes rather than outputs? That is, I don't create, say, graphics or videos. Instead, I help clients define their problems and investigate solutions. Any thoughts? Thanks, Colin”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) is podcaster Steve Folland's favourite brand. Listening to Simon Mayo on Walkman. Rushing home to watch 'The Broom Cupboard' after school. 'Ski Sunday' signalling the end of the weekend. Steve's childhood is wrapped up in warm memories of the BBC: a trusted friend with whom he has journeyed ever since. Expect to hear why this is a brand that—perhaps like no other—gets under our skin. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: www.pilgrimage.design/18-bbc Steve's website: www.stevefolland.com Being Freelance podcast: www.beingfreelance.com What is this podcast? Your brand + an emotional connection with your audience = success. But that middle part is tricky. I'm here to equip you to achieve it, through personal stories of individuals who have emotionally resonated with branding. I'm Sam, a brand designer and your host. In each episode, released on the 14th of the month, a top guest picks their favourite brand. I then invite them to unpack why it means so much. As they share, we gain invaluable insights into what makes audiences tick. Not with strategy or theory, but through that undeniable proof of successful branding: emotion. Whether you're a business wanting to better connect, a charity struggling to garner support or a branding professional needing encouragement, this is the podcast for you. Podcast artwork created with the help of Canva AI. AI policy: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.pilgrimage.design/ai-policy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Who am I? I'm Sam Thorogood. Hi! I'm a brand designer for startups, creators, charities, eco projects and church plants. I'm on a mission: equip these pioneering brands to bring others onto their journeys. My website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.pilgrimage.design⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Final thing (I promise)! Every other Tuesday, I share succinct advice on how to integrate design techniques and philosophy into your brand. Encouraging, empowering... and totally free. Welcome to the journey towards better branding. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠pilgrimagedesign.substack.com

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Grace Abell, designer at Abell Design — a brand and digital creative studio.She says…“To cut a long story short — I'm a seasoned freelancer who is just getting back into working evenings as I'm caring for twins during the day.My problem is this: As I do not have the capacity for project work, I'm now taking on small tasks from one agency whose fingers are in many pies. I have a set of ethical views which are privately held. These tend to overlap with what this client does, but not always. Therefore, I need some tips on turning down work on topics which are icky for me personally, but aren't icky for other people. The client always asks “are you available?” and doesn't usually disclose what the task is. This kind of work is often under NDA. I'm just very scared I'll agree to a job based on my availability, then the content will arrive in my inbox and I'll have to turn it down there and then. I've considered writing my list of no-gos in a contract, but then I don't really want my views to be known by every client. I'm not ashamed of my opinions — I just think it's more professional and mature to keep them to myself. What do you think?”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Abell Design websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Emma Roberts, director at Social Qual.Emma says:“You know when you stumble upon someone fab, and your brain goes ‘ooh, collaboration potential'? Perhaps we meet on LinkedIn and then organise a cuppa or intro call. We chat, we laugh, we bond over work joys and woes... and then we part with that cheerful, 'let's collaborate soon' but then… often our busy lives take over. I'm on both sides of this — an instigator of these types of calls and also someone who people reach out to.    So, I'm wondering...How can we make these cuppa-time conversations transform into actual collabs? Or should we even bother with these sorts of meetings?It feels like I need to be more strategic about which invites I accept and who I reach out to.  The social side of me responds to new folk with a Pavlov-dog response of ‘let's arrange a call' but I'm increasingly feeling a bit unsatisfied with that approach.  Anyone else? How do I get more strategic about these calls without being a nob?” What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Social Qual websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Lucy Critchley, founder of Untold Creative Services.Lucy says:“I use Canva A LOT. My clients find it super simple (mostly!) so it just makes sense. I've never learned how to use Illustrator/Photoshop etc but I feel like I should…? I think it would be a good skill to have and could be a benefit to my business in terms of being taken seriously with design/graphics/socials work. But I haven't a clue where to start! Or if it's even a good idea or not. It probably also stems back to being told I wasn't very creative when I was younger… hello imposter syndrome!Any thoughts welcome!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. •••Untold Creative ServicesFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Anonymous, AKA Lotus Vanreisel.Lotus says:“Hello freelance friends!I'd like your opinion on an email I've received from one of my longest and most favourite clients…After months of no work and no contact, she asked me last month if I have any availability in the next few weeks. I said ‘yes' and also told her that my rates had gone up since we last spoke.Here is her reply:"So I'd love to be able to put some work your way but the hourly rate is a bit high — is there any flexibility? I know you don't really do full days because of your daughter. Let me know."This irritates me no end as it implies I should charge less because wI have childcare duties. (I also know she worked part-time and didn't earn much when her kids were younger.)How do you handle situations like these?I'll also add that another long-standing client just asked me for a lot of work over the next couple of months, so while I could fit her in, I don't have an awful lot of availability.Would love your thoughts.Thanks, Lotus”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.•••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from designer, coder and illustrator Andi Best.Andi says:“I can't go on like this — I think I need to give in and ask for help!I am inundated with work and the enquiries keep coming, which is a great problem to have, but I don't know what to do about it.Previously I've mitigated large volumes of work by quoting higher or asserting my unavailability — ultimately turning work away. For a "busy period" that works well, but for the past 6 months I've been consistently (too) busy, and I now accept that I need to try something else. I just don't want to keep saying 'no'.I think I need more resource? I don't want ‘staff' (insurance, sick leave, payroll? No thanks!) but I do want something more robust than the ad-hoc outsourcing I do now.I think I need a firm freelance partnership? Or agency temp?Or similar arrangement?What's holding me back is a lack of trust in an unknown entity (the quality of the work, sharing client credentials etc.) —  ultimately relinquishing control of the work that's getting my name attached to it. And also a fear that their rates will exceed the fees already agreed for the work.Any advice?Thanks, Andi”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.•••Andi Best's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from Anonymous, AKA Zoe Honeysuckle.Zoe says:“Hi Frankie and Steve,I've been running my own business since May 2020 (with a 5 month old in tow!) and I feel fairly well versed with the peaks and troughs of freelance life.However, over the past few months I've noticed a few clients who are on my smaller packages/retainers drop off because of financial reasons. All good, and all totally understandable.I thought I'd use this new gap in my schedule to put together some new packages and try something a bit different around social media content creation and email marketing (and podcasts!) BUT, one of my existing clients has now asked for more hours and I am torn. I don't know whether to go for it — my client is brilliant and I really like working with them — or say no and protect my new-found time to build something new.I'm nervous that my new packages won't sell in the way I hope, and I don't want to turn down (well paying) work. What would you do? Help!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.•••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to an excellent question from copywriter Lucette Funnell.She says:“I've been approached by a local charity about a volunteer position. I'm interested in what they're doing and definitely feel I could add value. But where on earth would I find the time?!And as a chronic over-thinker who always ends up taking longer than planned to do everything… And who already has a list as long as my arm of things to do for my own business… How would I keep it to just 3-4 hours a week?Will it add value? Or would I be better off working on marketing my business/ exercising/ making lunches that aren't biscuits or toast?”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.• • •A BIG thank you to Patch and The Quick Brown Fox Video Production who supported our meetup in London. About PatchPatch is a new type of workspace and community hub, an accessible and family friendly place to work, discover and meet on the high street. We believe in a better balance for family and our health, in less commuting and more community by combining co-working with culture near to where you live.We are actively expanding across the country and would like to hear from you if you'd like one near you. Head to www.patch.work or check out instagram.com/patchplaces/ About The Quick Brown Fox Video ProductionThe Quick Brown Fox Video Production is a growing video production company based in southwest London with a real love for the carefully crafted moving image. We offer our clients over 20 years of filmmaking and video editing experience combined with creative backgrounds in Architecture and Sound Design.Our social media savvy team can help put your business on the map with engaging video content. We proudly help businesses and organisations tell their story in a captivating way that captures their audience's imagination. Head to www.thequickbrownfox.co.uk for more information.•••Lucette Funnell's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

Steve Folland, creator of the Being Freelance podcast and Doing it for the Kids podcast, joined me on Ditching Hourly to chat about his journey into freelancing, organic business growth, and tips for getting into the business mindset. Chapters:(0:00:00) - The Freelance Journey of Steve Folland(0:05:00) - Organic Growth of a Freelance Business(0:15:52) - Freelancing for Beginners(0:20:26) - Getting Into the Business MindsetSteve's Links: https://www.beingfreelance.com/ https://twitter.com/beingfreelance https://www.instagram.com/beingfreelance/ https://www.youtube.com/stevefolland https://www.doingitforthekids.net/ ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like: Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time? Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space? Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal? Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to an excellent question from Sophie Greenwood, founder of Ink & Bear.She says:“I recently invested in a rebrand of an online event that I run (Super Seconds Festival) — I worked with an illustrator (Vicky Hughes) and loved the process from start to finish. I loved setting a brief and having someone else be able to do the work a million times better that I could do it. Now I'm slightly addicted to the idea of getting people to support my business! So, my question is... What's the best thing you've ever invested in / outsourced in your business and what's on your wish list for the future?”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.• • •This episode is supported by AXA Business InsuranceAt AXA Business Insurance, we know that running any small business is hard work; but making your freelance business a success while looking after the kids can be a real challenge. That's why it's AXA's mission to make your business insurance easy through tailorable cover to suit your freelance business and a 24-hour legal and tax helpline for when you need a tricky question answered.And while we're making insurance easier, you can focus on what matters — making your business a success for your family.Work hard, insure easy.Visit AXA's Business Guardian Angel for more business help and support.AXA Insurance UK Plc is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.•••Sophie Greenwood's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to an excellent question from artist and illustrator Lisa Callaghan.She says:“As an aspiring creative freelancer, what do you recommend as being the first steps towards generating paid work? How do you get those very first paying clients?I'm already on social media, putting my work out into the world (well, to all of my 25 followers!). I've also looked at platforms like UpWork and haven't found any projects that fit — either they're looking for much more experience than I can offer, or I have what they want but they'd like me to do it for less than minimum wage.Help!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.• • •This episode is supported by AXA Business InsuranceAt AXA Business Insurance, we know that running any small business is hard work; but making your freelance business a success while looking after the kids can be a real challenge. That's why it's AXA's mission to make your business insurance easy through tailorable cover to suit your freelance business and a 24-hour legal and tax helpline for when you need a tricky question answered.And while we're making insurance easier, you can focus on what matters — making your business a success for your family.Work hard, insure easy.Visit AXA's Business Guardian Angel for more business help and support.AXA Insurance UK Plc is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.•••Lisa Callaghan's InstagramFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to an excellent question from designer Jason Hunt.He says:“I occasionally get the urge to approach a company who I think are doing their brand absolutely no favours and underselling what I know to be brilliant. I'm a designer, so approach this from a branding and design perspective (though of course their copy might also be shit!)This has never worked, and I rarely even entertain it these days, but I have a company that I am dying to approach as they are brilliant at what they do, have a great and friendly reputation and would even probably have money to spend on all these things. I just can't fathom out for the life of me why they haven't upped their game?Has anyone ever done this (successfully) and do you have any tips on how to write the initial approach to not sound like just a mansplaining twat?”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.• • •This episode is supported by AXA Business InsuranceAt AXA Business Insurance, we know that running any small business is hard work; but making your freelance business a success while looking after the kids can be a real challenge. That's why it's AXA's mission to make your business insurance easy through tailorable cover to suit your freelance business and a 24-hour legal and tax helpline for when you need a tricky question answered.And while we're making insurance easier, you can focus on what matters — making your business a success for your family.Work hard, insure easy.Visit AXA's Business Guardian Angel for more business help and support.AXA Insurance UK Plc is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.•••Jason Hunt's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

In this episode, Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to an excellent question from wedding videographer Charlene McNabb.She says:“Hi Frankie and Steve! Happy New Year!I'm sitting here with a notepad. Two actually. One has my 'to-do' list on it that I created before Christmas (check me out for being super organised). The other has what to prioritise over the next 6 weeks, but here's where the overwhelm has come flooding in.When you're running your own business and need to do ALLLLL the things, how do you prioritise stuff when everything is a priority?The list ranges from loads of paid client work (editing and stuff), to updating the website and portfolio (important, as it's key wedding-planning season), to marketing and SWOT analysis, accounts and even stripping the bloody paint off the stairs.I mean, I'm happy to push that last one back, it's been on the back burner for 8 years now anyway, but still…Do you think you can send some wisdom my way please?Thanks, Charlene”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.• • •This episode is supported by AXA Business InsuranceAt AXA Business Insurance, we know that running any small business is hard work; but making your freelance business a success while looking after the kids can be a real challenge. That's why it's AXA's mission to make your business insurance easy through tailorable cover to suit your freelance business and a 24-hour legal and tax helpline for when you need a tricky question answered.And while we're making insurance easier, you can focus on what matters — making your business a success for your family.Work hard, insure easy.Visit AXA's Business Guardian Angel for more business help and support.AXA Insurance UK Plc is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.•••Charlene McNabb's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

This week Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to an excellent question from website lead generation consultant Tom Garfield.He says:"Are awards worth it?Do you get business from them? Is it worth the effort of entering? Do clients care about them? Should we be applying for as many as we can?! It seems like winning awards is a good idea, but I just don't know what to think."What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.• • •This episode is supported by AXA Business InsuranceAt AXA Business Insurance, we know that running any small business is hard work; but making your freelance business a success while looking after the kids can be a real challenge. That's why it's AXA's mission to make your business insurance easy through tailorable cover to suit your freelance business and a 24-hour legal and tax helpline for when you need a tricky question answered.And while we're making insurance easier, you can focus on what matters — making your business a success for your family.Work hard, insure easy.Visit AXA's Business Guardian Angel for more business help and support. AXA Insurance UK Plc is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.•••Tom Garfield's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

This week me (Frankie Tortora) and him (Steve Folland) have a chat in response to an excellent question from Dex Sorbet AKA Anonymous.They say:“I've worked on two excellent projects for a really high profile client in the past year. When the projects finally went live I dropped them an email to say how great they were and how happy I was to have been a part of them. I got a lovely reply that ended with — ‘please do keep in touch for any future projects that might be up your street.' But I don't quite know what to do with that! How can I turn that vague and polite sign-off into something I can be proactive about? Do I send occasional emails to say “Hi” in the hope that they might have something in the works? Or will that make me seem a bit desperate? How do I maintain a relationship with a client who might have work in the future without being a bit weird?”• • •This episode is supported by AXA Business InsuranceAt AXA Business Insurance, we know that running any small business is hard work; but making your freelance business a success while looking after the kids can be a real challenge. That's why it's AXA's mission to make your business insurance easy through tailorable cover to suit your freelance business and a 24-hour legal and tax helpline for when you need a tricky question answered.And while we're making insurance easier, you can focus on what matters — making your business a success for your family. Work hard, insure easy.Visit AXA's Business Guardian Angel for more business help and support. AXA Insurance UK Plc is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.•••Frankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

This week Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to an excellent question from brand and visual identity designer Matt Jones.He says:“After years of having a full-time job, I always knew exactly when I would be off for Christmas, when I would be returning and not having to worry about projects or answering emails while I was off.This is my first year as a full-time freelancer approaching Christmas and I'm worried about being able to 'switch-off' over the holiday season…What advice do you have about managing client expectations? When to set an out of office? And any other tips or tricks on how to switch off (not checking emails, editing to-do lists etc)?Oh… and also throw into the mix that it's both my daughters birthdays smack bang in the middle of December!”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.• • •This episode is supported by AXA Business InsuranceAt AXA Business Insurance, we know that running any small business is hard work; but making your freelance business a success while looking after the kids can be a real challenge. That's why it's AXA's mission to make your business insurance easy through tailorable cover to suit your freelance business and a 24-hour legal and tax helpline for when you need a tricky question answered.And while we're making insurance easier, you can focus on what matters — making your business a success for your family.Work hard, insure easy.Visit AXA's Business Guardian Angel for more business help and support.AXA Insurance UK Plc is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.•••Matt Jones' websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

This week Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to an excellent question from accountant Claire Owen-Jones.She says:“I have a ‘boring' business and make a ‘boring' podcast. I'm okay with that — I'm an accountant so I am very familiar with DULL — but I struggle with how to market it.Via the podcast I answer common accountancy questions. This week's episode is 7-10 minutes of me explaining payments on account, for example.How can I make the un-fun more memorable and/or appealing?”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community.• • •This episode is supported by AXA Business InsuranceAt AXA Business Insurance, we know that running any small business is hard work; but making your freelance business a success while looking after the kids can be a real challenge. That's why it's AXA's mission to make your business insurance easy through tailorable cover to suit your freelance business and a 24-hour legal and tax helpline for when you need a tricky question answered.And while we're making insurance easier, you can focus on what matters — making your business a success for your family.Work hard, insure easy.Visit AXA's Business Guardian Angel for more business help and support.AXA Insurance UK Plc is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.•••Claire Owen-Jones' websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi

This week Frankie Tortora and Steve Folland have a chat in response to a question from writer, editor and proofreader Louisa Ellins.She says…“Dear Frankie and Steve, As much as I love my office in the box room, I keep hearing that co-working spaces are a great place to meet potential clients, and I sometimes miss the office chat from my employed days. I've decided to dip my toe into co-working spaces after the school summer holiday break, and I've found that there's several different options in my town. I wouldn't go full time, but it would be nice to have the option of a hot desk to work from sometimes. What tips do you have for making the most of my time there?  Thanks so much! Louisa”What would your advice be? Let us know your thoughts using #DIFTKpodcast on Twitter and Instagram, and join in the conversation via the DIFTK Community. • • •This episode is supported by AXA Business InsuranceAt AXA Business Insurance, we know that running any small business is hard work; but making your freelance business a success while looking after the kids can be a real challenge. That's why it's AXA's mission to make your business insurance easy through tailorable cover to suit your freelance business and a 24-hour legal and tax helpline for when you need a tricky question answered.And while we're making insurance easier, you can focus on what matters — making your business a success for your family.Work hard, insure easy.Visit AXA's Business Guardian Angel for more business help and support.AXA Insurance UK Plc is authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority. •••Louisa Ellin's websiteFrankie Tortora's websiteSteve Folland's websiteSteve's podcast - Being FreelanceDoing It For The Kids websiteDIFTK InstagramDIFTK TwitterSupport DIFTK on Ko-Fi