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Ask David My friend won't say thank you! Dating Anxiety Religion vs. Psychotherapy We want to remind you about an awesome virtual workshop on habits and addictions that Dr. Jill Levitt and David will be presenting on March 28, 2025 We will feature powerful new paradoxical techniques that will blow your socks off. It will be from 8:30 to 4:30 and you will earn 7 CE credits while having fun and learning how to heal yourself AND you patients. Check it out! It's less than two weeks away, some check it out while you still have time! You'' LOVE it and LEARN a LOT! Registration and More Information Here! As is so often the case, the answers to these questions that appear in the show notes were email replies to the person before the show. To get the full discussion, make sure you listen to the actual podcast, as the answers often evolve in unexpected ways when the “experts” hash it out! Today's episode is chock full of personal stories (some racy), expert Five Secrets advice and demonstration, philosophical / spiritual discussion, and secrets of successful (and racy) dating. 1. Brittany asks: What can I do say to a friend who does not say “thank you” when I pay for our meal or drive a long distance just to see them? 2. Jaydipe asks: How can I get over my anxiety around attractive women? 3. Ali asks: Can religious beliefs cause or intensify feelings of anxiety? (David will talk about the synergies between TEAM CBT and spirituality in all religions. He will also mention the potential antagonisms.) 1. Brittany asks: What can I do say to a friend who does not say “thank you” when I pay for our meal or drive a long distance just to see them. Hello David and Rhonda, I have a friend who typically does not say thank you to me when I pay for a meal out or drive us a long distance. I am someone who always says thank you even if the other person just bought us $10 worth of fast food or gave a short ride. I find myself feeling resentful towards my friend for not saying anything when I pay and drive us around all day. It makes me feel like they don't appreciate it. At the same time, talking about it and sharing my feelings would then feel like I'm asking them to say it, and then it would not feel authentic. I have said something about it in the past, and they were like I'm sorry, thank you. But it didn't mean much at that point. Is this one of those annoying traits I just learn to accept? Thank you, Brittany David's reply Well, you could just use a gentle I Feel statement, which might be paradoxically stronger, but combined with Stroking. Like this, "Jennie, you know I think the world of you, and greatly enjoy our times together, but when I pay for lunch, or drive a distance to hang out with you, you rarely ever say "thank you," and then I feel hurt and unappreciated." Something like that combines Stroking with I Feel and might be effective. But I always rate myself on what I do, or say, and not so much on how the other person reacts. You could, perhaps, also ask if they are upset with you about something that they've had trouble expressing to you. Best, david 2. Jaydipe asks: How can I get over my anxiety around attractive women? Hi David Many thanks for the podcast I'm struggling with social anxiety and talking to attractive women and I've watched all the podcasts relating to it. I think deep down I have a shame around finding women attractive, so I find it difficult to express interest in them. I find that I can talk to them easily during activities like climbing or co workers, but even on dates with women I can't seem to take things forwards playfully like you'd expect on a date. I'm too serious and I think that turns people off. I feel like I'm under the spotlight and I have to impress them otherwise they won't like me. I know this isn't true and I've been trying to get myself to do exposure therapy by asking girls for their numbers and being rejected so it helps with that. Also, I struggle with societal expectations, I hear women say that they don't want to be approached or talked to or anything so I just end up avoiding them because I don't want to annoy them, but it holds me back from getting the sex and relationships I want Any help much appreciated Thanks, Jaydipe David's Reply I have included your excellent question on an upcoming Ask David. In the meantime, have you read my book on dating, Intimate Connections? Best, david PS Should I use your first name, or a fake first name? 3. Ali asks: Can religious beliefs cause or intensify feelings of anxiety? Dear Dr. Burns, After reading your books, I've started to recognize that many of my anxious beliefs seem to have a religious background. For example, in the Bible, there's a verse from John 5:14: “Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, ‘See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.'” Here's where I struggle: I want to live my life freely, which includes things like being with different girls before marriage (something I already do). But according to religion, this is considered adultery and a sin. Another verse that weighs heavily on me is from Matthew 5:27-29: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.” I often find myself looking at beautiful women on the street, which Christianity teaches is sinful, and this sometimes leads to feelings of guilt. I wonder: do I need to leave religion altogether to break free from these negative, self-critical thoughts? I also have other related thoughts that seem to link my faith with the good things happening in my life. For instance: My life is going well right now. My parents are alive, my brother is getting married, I'm healthy, and I've been fortunate in many ways. I've had incredible experiences, like participating in two Erasmus+ exchange programs in Poland and Lithuania during university, volunteering in Latvia for a year, and even having my New Zealand visa approved in a highly competitive process (only 100 spots for 85 million people, and the application closed in 5 minutes!). I often think that these blessings are because I believe in Jesus, follow the Bible, and try to live as a good person who avoids sin and doesn't deceive others. But then these anxious thoughts arise: I should always be thankful or pray, or else my life will fall apart. If I leave religion, something bad might happen—my parents could fall ill or pass away, and it would all feel like my fault for turning away from Jesus. Without faith, I'd lose my good fortune(luck), my appearance, and my opportunities. Wherever I apply to would be rejected, then I would understand that it was Jesus in the first place doing all of these things in my life, not me or vice versa! I'd find a terrible job, terrible working environment, terrible mutual relationships. Then everything would be my fault and I'd tell myself I should have believed in him in the first place but now I deserve everything that happens to me! These thoughts are overwhelming, and I'd love to hear your perspective on how to approach and challenge them. Thank you so much for your time and the invaluable insights you share in your work. Warm regards, Ali David's reply Hi Ali, Sorry you are struggling with so many restrictions, judgments, and inhibitions! I can imagine it triggers anxiety, guilt, inadequacy, resentment, discouragement, and more. You can let me know! If you want, I can include this as an Ask David question on a podcast, with your first name, or a fake first name. Let me know if this works for you. Also, what religion are you? I know that many religions around the world can be very fundamentalistic and super strict in their teachings. My own religious upbringing had a touch of rigidity, too. Best, david Ali's response to David Hello again, Actually, my family comes from the Christian (Orthodox-Armenian) minority in Turkey, where I was born and raised. So, I am an Orthodox Christian. You're absolutely right that I struggle with many restrictions and judgments. I'd love for you to include this as an "Ask David" question on a podcast since I haven't seen any episode (and I've listened to most of your recent podcasts, including number 408: Do You Believe in God? Does God Exist?) that addresses this topic. By the way, I already use an alias, so "Ali" is a fake name, but you're welcome to use it in your podcast! Here's a quick DML (Daily Mood Log) to clarify what I'm dealing with: The Upsetting Event: Doing my daily half-hour Bible reading before bed and coming across certain verses. Emotions: Sad: 60% Anxious/Worried: 70% Inadequate: 60% Guilty/Bad: 90% Abandoned: 70% Pessimistic/Discouraged: 80% Stuck: 75% Angry/Resentful: 75% Tricked/Duped: 80% Although I don't consider myself a devout Christian, over the past few years, I've started reading the Bible—the Old and New Testaments. Initially, I read them in my native language, but now I read in English to fully understand the content. Growing up in the church, I believed everything the priest taught. However, encountering some events and stories that seem illogical to me has made me question my beliefs. I often feel tricked and wonder if I've truly believed in all this. At the same time, I feel anxious and worried, as if questioning or criticizing my religion is a betrayal of God. Please let me know if you need any additional information. Ali David's reply Thanks, Ali, this is super. I was also raised in a somewhat strict Christian (Lutheran) home, and as a child had plans to become a minister, like my dad. In college, I learned critical thinking, and began to question some of what I was taught when I was growing up. For example, there seemed to be a bit of a bias against Jews, and my dad said they had to convert to Christianity to be ”saved” and, I guess, avoid going to hell after they died. That didn't sound right at all, not loving, as Christ taught, who was himself a Jew, but hostile and judgmental. And I had good friends who were Jewish, so it felt offensive. Same with people who were gay. A strong bias that this was somehow “bad” and sinful, or something like that. Christianity, in the sense of the Catholic church, was really created by people a couple hundred years after Christ died, and they were reflecting their own human biases when they wrote the new testament and translated the old testaments. For better or worse, I am personally not afraid to disagree with much of what is in the Bible, and interpret it, not literally, but as a series of stories trying to communicate important spiritual truths, but these truths get quite distorted when people began focusing on literal truths, rather than “seeing” the message. Literal translations of religion risk missing the spiritual meaning and truth. This is especially true of the orthodox movement within any religion. This tendency toward being literal, rigid, and judgmental may be a partially inherited, genetic trait. Regardless, to me, it is offensive and ugly, and definitely not religious, but quite the opposite. In the early days, lots of religious cults emerged, and they all had their own special leaders. If your leader couldn't walk on water, that guru was considered inferior. So, it was fashionable to say that your spiritual guru could “walk on water.” What does that really mean? To me, it means that this person is pretty special, and much kinder and more loving than most others, and can perhaps convey some spiritual truths to us. But actual walking on water is a magic trick best left to television and stage magicians. This is my thinking only, and I do not wish to impose my thinking and beliefs on you or on anybody! I had tremendous respect and admiration for a Catholic nun, Sister Shela Flynn, who worked at my clinic in Philadelphia because she wanted to learn how to do CBT. She was humble and wonderful, and once shared with me that she also thought the stories in the bible were primarily metaphors, just stories trying to convey this or that idea about love, humility, and so forth. Not literally true stories you “had to” believe to be a “good Christian.” An, in addition, using my philosophy and CBT training, there is really no such “thing” as a “good Christian.” Positive and negative labels can be useful but can also be hurtful and destructive. Will stop babbling, and feel free to reject or ignore some or everything I am saying! But on an emotional level, I feel hurt, and angry about the literal “rules-based” versions of religion. Because I see, all over the world, atrocities being committed to a massive degree in the name of this or that “religion.” I am most comfortable with Buddhism, but even then, many people take it literally, make up rules, and so forth, just like other religions or spiritual “paths.” For some reason, people love to make up rules and then try to force others to conform to their beliefs and rules. This is due, in large part, to arrogance, and the desire to feel “special” and “superior” to others. These are not, to my way of thinking, spiritual qualities, but quite the opposite. Finally, I do not mention religion in my therapy, which is 100% secular, and based on research and on scientific research on how people actually change. But at the moment of recovery, which often happens in a flash, rather suddenly, the patient often “sees” something of a spiritual nature which they had not seen or grasped before. I have never seen anyone lose their religious beliefs because of effective therapy, but quite the opposite. In fact, what we might call “recovery from depression” (or some other problem) sometimes looks an awful lot like what the religious mystics from all religions have called “enlightenment.” So, that's the sermon my dad would have perhaps wanted me to preach from a pulpit! I guess this is my pulpit, and you are in my congregation! And this Sunday morning here in Los Altos, so that's the end of today's sermon! Best, david Contact information You can sign up for the David and Jill workshop on healthier habits here: cbt-workshop.com
Ask David Bipolar, the Dark Side, Changing Behavior We have lots of great questions today. The answers in the show notes were written prior to the podcast, and the answers in the live podcast as we discussed these questions may differ somewhat or amplify the written materials in these show notes. We love your questions. Remember to send them to David@feelinggood.com. Announcement: Our awesome summer intensive is returning after a long, five years due to the pandemic. It is typically the most outstanding and rewarding TEAM-CBT training of the year, and it will take place again and the wonderful South San Francisco Conference Center from August 8 – 11, 2025. You can attend in person if you register soon, since in-person seating will be strictly limited and only a small number are still available. You can also attend the online, live-streamed version of this program at a substantial discount. The online experience and small group exercises will be similar for the in-person and online participants. Check out the details, including early-bird discounts, at www.cbtintensive.com www.cbtintensive.com Hope to see you there! Warmly, david Today's Questions Alison asks: I have bipolar Disorder and I have had trouble challenging my negative thoughts. I'm suffering. What can I do NAME WITHHELD asks: Can or should a person really and truly accept their dark side? Trainor asks: In TEAM there is a strong emphasis on changing the way you think. But is it sometimes also important to change your behavior, or to make real changes in your life, or to help others who need help changing their circumstances==for example, people who are struggling in poverty. 1. Alison asks: I have bipolar Disorder and I have had trouble challenging my negative thoughts. I'm suffering. What can I do? Hi David, Many years ago I used your book to beat depressive thinking… in the last three years I've been diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and have found my depressive thinking too difficult to budge with your book. I'm really suffering; any ideas about what I could do? Thank you for your service to humanity. I always recommend your book. David's response Hi Alison, A therapist could help. The new Feeling Great App could help. And tons of free resources at www.feelinggood.com. In addition, can you please give me an example of the negative thoughts you can't budge. Then we can point things out in the podcast and try to figure out why you're getting stuck! I have found that doing cognitive therapy / TEAM-CBT with individuals with Bipolar Disorder is exceptionally helpful during the depressed (not manic) phase, and works pretty much the same way as with anyone who's feeling down. Best, david 2. NAME WITHHELD asks: Can or should a person really and truly accept their dark side? Hello David, My name is NAME WITHHELD and I am doing my PhD degree in Neuroimmunology in LOCATION WITHHELD. I had come across your book feeling good and your podcasts by one of my therapists - they have had an immense impact on my way of thinking. I really love disarming and using “I feel” statements to connect! I had also realized that by finding some genuine truth in a person's belief even if it sounds ridiculous, I would automatically develop certain level of respect for that person! I really love that! I feel really happy that I can respect a person even without accepting his/her beliefs!! I am now working on my distortions. I really love working on my mind that way. Anyway, I have wanted to ask you if a person CAN accept his/her dark side? I seemed to have loathed myself for quite a long time and couldn't stand living alone without a partner or a person around. I hated myself for disrespecting my mother whilst growing up. But, sometime during Dec last year, I had had an epiphany of why things happened the way they did and somehow, I learnt that the reason why I had disrespected my mother was because my father, after their separation, kept filling my mind about how wrong my mother was for breaking up the family and I believed him because I had a good rapport with him, than I had with my mother. Also, my mother was very awkward in building a relationship with me and I had misconstrued that with her indifference towards me. After that, I stopped hurting myself over it because I had learnt to empathize with myself then. I sobbed profusely that day. Is it really possible to truly accept yourself? I feel at ease a lot more these days than I used to before. But I also have to battle my distortions too on a regular basis! Please help me out here! Thank you so much for everything that you have done!! I really love your work!! Regards, NAME WITHHELD David's reply Thanks so much. I hid your name and location, and hope that's okay, and we WILL include your excellent question on our upcoming podcast. My brief reply is that all human beings have a “dark side,” and that we are far better off accepting it, as opposed to denying it and seeing ourselves as “totally good,” because then we might see others as “totally bad,” and feel morally superior. This dynamic is the cause of wars and a great deal pf hatred and suffering. 3. Trainor asks: In TEAM there is a strong emphasis on changing the way you think. But is it sometimes also important to change your behavior, or to make real changes in your life, or to help others who need help changing their circumstances--for example, people who are struggling in poverty. Hey David! I have asked several questions over the years (I asked about A.I. which I much enjoyed the episode on that!), so feel free to ignore this email if you feel I've overburdened you guys. Anyway, I had a question about changing thoughts versus circumstances. You often say that our thoughts create all of our emotional and interpersonal realities. I thought maybe a better or more nuanced definition would be to also mention that events CAN change our feelings but they do so through changing our thoughts. I have heard Matt May mention this idea in some circumstances as the "low road to recovery." Where you actually get the thing you think you need and as a result feel better. However, I thought about certain situations where changing the circumstance could also be a valid solution to an individual's problems. Take someone living in poverty, I am certain that CBT could help this person change their emotions around the experience of living in poverty. But would bringing the individual out of poverty be considered a "low road to recovery"? Or could we say that bringing someone out of poverty is also a valid way of changing their emotional distress? Like sort of how therapists use both exposure and cognitive techniques to quell phobias or certain anxieties. I personally like this definition because it includes the ability to change your circumstances as a method to change your thinking, without it being the only method. It also makes sense in a world where people want to make changes in society (giving women the right to vote, ending child labor) and create environments that foster positive thinking. I think so much focus on the cognition (while fundamentally true) makes it feel like people should focus exclusively on changing the way they think about a situation. When, in reality, it seems like we can both change our circumstances and thinking simultaneously to make our lives better. Anyway, just wanted to know what you thought about this idea. Thanks for everything you do, Trainor Peters P.S. I have nearly completed my first year of my psychology undergrad to become a counselor. In great part to you and all the wonderful people on your podcast. So, thank you! David's reply. Thanks, Trainor, I will add this excellent question to our Ask David list, if that's okay, and discuss with Matt and Rhonda on a podcast. My hospital in Philadelphia was located in an inner-city neighborhood, and many (perhaps most) of our patients have very limited resources. Some were homeless, and many had not completed the 5th grade. This gave me abundant opportunities to work with people with “real” problems in addition to their distorted perceptions. In addition, I have always emphasized that sometimes you need to change the way you behave in the “real” world in addition to changing the way you think about it. We'll give these topics a deeper dive on the live podcast discussion. And, best of luck in your ongoing training! Once you are in a graduate program, you will be eligible, if interested, to join one of our two free weekly TEAM-CBT training groups, which are both virtual. Warmly, david Thanks for listening today! Rhonda and David Special Announcement Attend the legendary Summer Intensive Featuring Drs. David Burns and Jill Levitt August 8 - 11. 2024 Learn Advanced TEAM-CBT skills Heal yourself, heal your patients First Intensive in 5 long years. It will knock your socks off! Limited Seating--Act Fast! Click for registration / more information! Sadly, this workshop is a training program which will be limited to therapists and mental health professionals and graduate students in a mental health field Apologies, but therapists have complained when non-therapists have attended our continuing education training programs. This is partly because of the intimate nature of the small group exercises and the personal work the therapists may do during the workshop. Certified coaches and counselors are welcome to attend. But there's some good news, too! The Feeling Great App is now available in both app stores (IOS and Android) and is for therapists and the general public, and you can take a ride for free! Check it out!
This podcast is talking about a performance in Hollywood and gets into scripture and about what God is going to do and then through him. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/lindsey-clarke/support
Ask David The fear of ghosts; the truth about nutritional supplements; the fear of fear; how does anxiety treatment work? And more. Today, David and Rhonda answer six cool questions submitted by podcast listeners like you! Joseph asks: How would you use exposure to confront your fear of ghosts? Salim asks: What herbs and supplements will help me become more zen and relaxed? Peter asks: How do you stop fearing the fear and discomfort of anxiety? Jillian asks: How does cognitive therapy work to help reduce anxiety? Sanjay asks: How do you give up wants, needs, and desires? Dana asks for help with the Disarming Technique. In the following, David's reply was David's email response to the person prior to the podcast, just suggesting some directions we might take on the podcast. The Rhonda comments were based on notes she took during the live podcast. For the full answers, make sure you listen to the podcast! Joseph asks: How would you use exposure to confront your fear of ghosts? Hi David and Rhonda, Thank you again for your wonderful replies and the amazing podcast. If you would humor me, I have another question -- I know David talked about exposure therapy in overcoming fears, but I wonder how this could apply to some fears like the fear of ghosts where it is caused by an over-active imagination (in which case, what should one be exposed to?) Regards Joseph David's reply Cognitive flooding would be one approach. Will give details on podcast. Thanks! David Rhonda's notes Find out what is happening in the person's life, and treat that specific problem. Maybe someone developed a fear of ghosts after the death of a loved one, so the idea of being around death or dead things may also cause intense anxiety. Going to a cemetery may be part of their exposure. Other examples of exposure for overcoming the fear of ghosts could be: Approaching a scary, abandoned house Watching a scary movie about ghosts Fear of darkness may accompany fear of ghosts so staying in the dark may be part of your exposure. Fear of sleeping alone may also accompany fear of ghosts so sleeping alone in your home may be part of your exposure. Salim asks: What herbs and supplements will help me become more zen and relaxed? Hello Mr. David D Burns, I want to tell you that i loved "Feeling Good", your book helped me a lot in improving my life, I have a question, can you recommend herbs or supplements that help me be more Zen and more relaxed? I would be eternally grateful.
Connor Rogers and Joe DeMayo are looking at a new era for the New York Mets on an all-new episode of The Mets Pod presented by Tri-State Cadillac, as the guys react to the departure of Buck Showalter and the arrival of David Stearns. Connor and Joe discuss the reasons why the organization moved on from Buck as manager, and go through the potential candidates for the next dugout boss in Queens. Then they break down all the quotes that came out of the news conference officially introducing David Stearns as the new Mets president of baseball operations, and examine next steps for Stearns as he begins to put his stamp on the team and starts to set a path for the entire organization moving forward. Later, the show breaks open the Mailbag to answer questions about the future of the Mets' lineup and if it's too early to start trading prospects for big league pieces. Finally the show ends with the end of The Scoreboard, as a champion is crowned after Connor and Joe's season-long gambling game reaches the victory line for one of them! Be sure to subscribe to the show at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.0:00 Welcome to the show1:10 Buck Showalter Firing Reaction4:07 First Two Years of Cohen vs Now9:03 David Sterns Introduction - What does it look like now that he's here?14:27 Pete Alonso's Future23:05 Billy Eppler's future under Stearns26:46 Potential Manager: Craig Counsell30:30 The Scoreboard Final Recap33:23 The Mailbag: When will the Mets trade their upper league minor league guys? Who will they target?38:29 The Mailbag: How will the lineup look different last year?43:17 Mets Future DH: Shohei Ohtani?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Self-Esteem, Self-Confidence, and Self-Acceptance What's the Difference? What's More Important? Questions for today's Ask David podcast David asks: What's the difference between self-confidence, self-esteem, and self-acceptance? Guillermo asks: How do you help people who are not asking for help or don't even know they need help with depression? The answers to today's questions in these show notes were written before the podcast. The information on the podcast may be quite different and will typically provide much more information than the brief answers below. David David asks: What's the difference between self-confidence, self-esteem, and self-acceptance? Hello David, The mental health world seems to like or argue about the meaning of terms like self-confidence, self-esteem, and self-acceptance? What's the difference between them, and which one is the best thing to have? David's response: Great question, David. I think of self-confidence as the conviction that you're probably going to win because you're very good at something. Self-esteem, in contrast, is the decision to love yourself whether you win or lose. Between those two, I'd say that self-confidence is more fun, but self-esteem is more important. But where does self-acceptance fit in? That's the big buzz word these days, although the concept has been around for ages. We'll have to ask the experts today to find out where it fits in! I'm a bit confused at the moment! Guillermo asks: How do you help people who don't know that they need help with depression? Hello, Dr Burns I was curious as to how you would help someone who isn't aware (or capable to know--but not in a medical sense) that they need help. You've said before that the worst thing you can do is try to help (especially when no one asked for help), but how have you handled in the past cases when someone isn't aware that they need help for depression? Seems like it would be very tough without the person being motivated. As always, thank you for all you do, Guillermo Campos Rhonda, Matt, and David will reply on the podcast. David and Rhonda are grateful that Matt can join us often on the podcast.
Ask David: Burn Out; When Challenging Thoughts Doesn't Work; and more! Featuring Dr. Matthew May In today's podcast, Matt, Rhonda and David discuss four challenging questions from podcast fans like you: 1. Joseph asks if it's okay to take a break when you get “burned out.” Below, David expands on this and describes the difference between “healthy” and “unhealthy burnout.” 2. Joseph also asks why your feelings might not change when you challenge your negative thought with a positive thought that's 100% true. 3. Dan asks about Step 4 of the Relationship Journal, which is the most difficult and important step in the TEAM interpersonal model—see exactly how you're forcefully causing and reinforcing the very relationship problem you're complaining about. For example, if the person doesn't “listen,” you'll see that you're forcing them not to listen. If she or he doesn't open up and express feelings, you'll see that you prevent them from opening up. And if you think your partner doesn't treat you in a loving and respectful way, you'll suddenly see exactly why this is happening—if you have the courage to take look and see: But if fact, this is one of the “Great Deaths” of the “self” in TEAM-CBT, and very few folks are willing to “die” in this way. 4. Finally, Clay asks about EMDR. He's been treated with it without success. David and Matt weigh in with their thoughts about EMDR. This question was not addressed on the podcast, since some practitioners of EMDR might be offended by David and Matt's thinking, but they did describe their thoughts in the show notes below. If you are an EMDR enthusiast, you might prefer NOT to read our comments. Joseph writes: Thanks, David, for sharing so much on the podcasts! I have a couple questions. Personally, I find that when I'm burnt out, I get a lot more anxious automatic thoughts. While it's definitely good to combat these distorted thoughts by replacing them with realistic ones, my takeaway is that it's also sometimes wise to change our lives / circumstances (e.g. to take a break). By the way, I also wanted to ask if you've ever faced a situation where you are convinced that a thought is distorted and irrational (and you know what the realistic thought is), but you still can't shake it off? I sometimes get stuck when I already know the "right answer" (ie. what the realistic thoughts are based on the methods you've taught), but I just can't seem to get my brain to fully believe it. For example, I was recently on vacation and a small blip made me think "my vacation is ruined!". I immediately identified it as all-or-nothing thinking, and replaced it with "my vacation is still going very well even if it's not perfect" (and I'm convinced this thought is true), but somehow my mind kept going back to the automatic thought again and again. Curious if you've ever experienced this. Thanks again so much for your time and your teaching; just wanted to say I really appreciate it! :) Regards Joseph David's Reply to Joseph. Thanks for the great questions. We address both of them on an upcoming podcast. Here's the quick response. Yes, it is okay to take a break when you feel “burned out.” However, you can get “burned out” in a healthy or unhealthy way. For example, after I edit for two or three hours, which I love, my brain gets “burned out.” So I take a break and come back later, maybe even a day later, and I feel refreshed and filled with enthusiasm about writing and editing some more, because I love these activities. When I was in private practice in Philadelphia, I saw 17 patients back to back on Wednesdays. That way, I could have a three day weekend. Actually, I loved it and as the day went on, I got higher and higher. At the end I was exhausted, but exhilarated. I was never “burned out” because I loved what I was doing, and the clinical work was SO rewarding! However, sometimes I made a mistake and a patient would get very upset, sometimes angry with me, or felt hurt. THAT was when I got suddenly burned out and exhausted. But it wasn't because of my work, or the conflict, but rather my thoughts about it, which generally involved a combination of self criticism and frustration with the patient, both the result of distorted thoughts, generally Self-Directed and Other-Directed Should Statements. And THAT kind of “burned out” won't improve with a break. The answer is challenging and changing your own inner dialogue, as well as your dialogue with the other person, using the “failure” in the relationship as an opportunity to listen and support and create a deeper and more meaningful relationship. With regard to your second excellent question, we explored that in depth in the podcast, and also made it a problem for our listeners to think about. So tune in for the answers! This is a popular question I've been answering for more than 40 years, and the answers tell us a great deal about how cognitive therapy actually works. Thanks so much, Joseph! Subject: Relationship Journal Gem I Found Dan (a former participant in David and Jill's Tuesday training group at Stanford) writes: Hello to the Dynamic Duo (David and Jill), I came across this doc for Step 4 of the Relationship Journal, but I don't really understand it and I don't remember the context. I know it was from the Tuesday Group years ago. It says it's about conceptualizing the problem, just not sure how to utilize this in step 4. Thanks. (You will find this document in the show notes below.) ~Dan (Daniel C. Linehan, MSW, LCSW) David's Reply Hi Dan, Great question. In this document, I am trying to make it a bit easier for folks to see how they are triggering the very problem they are complaining about. So, I have listed three categories of common complaints. For example, an Empathy complaint would be that “My partner doesn't listen,” or “always has to be right.” Then you ask, “If I wanted to force my partner to behave like this, how could I so?” Well, one good way would be to interrupt when your partner is trying to talk, or argue and insist your partner is wrong when they're trying to make a point, and so forth. This would force your partner to argue and insist that they are right! It is pretty basic and obvious. But most human beings don't “get it,” and in part that's because a great many don't want to. Blaming the other person seems way more popular than looking at your own role in the problem these days. Good to hear from you on this important topic! People can usually “see” how step 3 of the Relationship Journal works—you simply examine what you wrote down in Step 2, and you can almost always see no E (Empathy), no A (assertively sharing your feelings with “I Feel” Statements, and no R (conveying respect or liking to the other person, even when you're angry.) But most people don't seem to have the natural mental aptitude or the stomach for Step 4, where you go beyond Step 3 and explain EXACTLY how you FORCE the other person to behave in the exact way you're complaining about. The document in the link is an attempt to help people with Step 4—IF you are willing to examine your own role in the problem. In Step 4, you ask yourself what category you see the other person in, and there are three choices to make it fairly simple. You might feel that they don't listen or try to see your point of view. This would be an E = no Empathy complaint. Or you might feel like they can't, or won't, share their feelings. Instead, they might just keep arguing, or they might refuse to open up. This would be an A = no Assertiveness complaint. Or, you might complaint that they don't treat you with warmth, love, or respect. That would be an R = no Respect complaint. This makes it much easier to “see” how your response to the other person in Step 2 actually causes and reinforces the exact behavior you're complaining about. Lots of people get defensive or annoyed at this step of the RJ, and refuse to continue! That's because Step 4 is all about the third “Great Death” of the “self,” or “ego,” in TEAM-CBT. Most of us don't want to “die” in this way. It can feel humiliating, or shameful, to pinpoint your own role in the problem. But, there's usually a big reward—you're suddenly “reborn” into a far more loving and satisfying relationship. In the podcast, brave and wonderful Rhonda provided David and Matt with an example when she was visiting her son and daughter in law in Germany last month to help out with their twin baby girls. This example really brings this “Great Death” to life, and we are grateful to Rhonda for helping us in this very vulnerable and real way! Feel free to ask again if I have not made it clear. To me, this phenomenon of causing the very problems we are complaining about in our relationships with others is incredibly fascinating. However, change involves the “death of the self,” which is painful, because you have to see, usually for the first time, your own role in the problem you're complaining about. It is based on the Buddhist idea that we create our own interpersonal reality at every moment of every day. In other words, we CREATE our enemies, and then whine and complaint about it! Most people don't want to see this! They want the therapist (or friend they're confiding to) to agree that the other person REALLY IS a jerk, or to blame, or whatever. They just want to complain and blame and feel superior! In my book, Feeling Good Together, I think I said something to the effect that we “want to do our dirty work in the dark.” In other words, we don't want to turn the lights on so we can “see” how we're actually causing the conflict. The person asking for help can nearly always be shown to be the 100% cause of the conflict. This technique is one I recommend when working with an individual, and not a couple. Other less confrontational techniques are probably more effective when you are working with both partners at the same time. Warmly, david (David D. Burns, MD) Here's the document: Conceptualizing the Patient's Complaint in Step 4 of the Relationship Journal (RJ) By David D. Burns, MD* Problem Area Specific Complaint—S/he Complaints about the other person's lack of E = Empathy Won't listen Does not understand me Always has to be right Always criticizes me Constantly complains and ignores my advice Constantly brags and talks about himself / herself Doesn't value my thinking or ideas. Is defensive and argumentative Doesn't care about my feelings. Complaints about the other person's lack of A = Assertiveness Cannot (or will not) express his or her feelings Cannot deal with negative feelings Expects me to read his or her mind Clams up and refuses to talk to me Won't be honest with me pouts and slams doors, insisting s/he isn't mad! won't tell me how she / he is feeling. isn't honest with me. suddenly explodes for no reason, out of the blue. Complaints about the other person's lack of R = Respect Always has to get his or her way Is stubborn Is controlling Does all the taking, while I do all the giving Uses me Puts me down Is judgmental Does not care about me or respect me Only cares about is himself / herself Constantly complains and ignores my advice. Explanation. When you are using the Relationship Journal, you will usually have a complaint about the other person. For example, you may complain that she or he “never listens,” or “is always si critical,” or “constantly complains but never listen to my advice.” If you write down one thing the other person said in Step 1 of the RJ, and exactly what you said in Step 2, you can usually easily analyze your response with the EAR Checklist. That shows what you did wrong, and why your response was ineffective. You can also use the Bad Communication Checklist to pinpoint your communication errors, and some people prefer this format. In Step 4, you go spell out precisely why your response will FORCE the other person to keep doing the exact thing you're complaining about. One easy way to conceptualize the nature of your complaint about the other person is with our convenient EAR algorithm. This document can help you “see” the problem you're complaining about when you do Step 4 of the RJ. That makes it much easier to discover exactly how you are triggering and reinforces the exact problem you're complaining about. LMK what you think! Clay writes: Hello David, I know you no longer practice, but could I please get an opinion from you on EMDR? So far I have done about six sessions of EMDR and I feel worse than when I began. Does one typically feel worse before one feels better with EMDR? I know you are for Team CBT, and I think it has a lot of merit and science behind it! It just seems a little magical to me that by alternately tapping that I am going to resolve traumas or anxiety issues that happened a long time ago and maybe even recently, but I am going into it with an open mind and the possibilities. Best to you and your family, David, and thank you for the revolution in cognitive therapy you started with Aaron Beck and Albert Ellis! Kind regards, Clay Wilson Hi Clay, I've never been an EMDR enthusiast. To me, it's just cognitive exposure, which definitely can have value in anxiety, coupled with “eye jiggling.” Many of it's proponents seem to think that they have found the holy grail, and I have no doubt that a few will slam me for me non-supportive response! And please remember that I'm a cynic, so take it with a grain of salt. In TEAM, we use more than a hundred M = Methods, and only after doing the T, E, A steps, which are absolutely crucial to success in most cases. Best, david PS I'm copying Rhonda and Matt. If we used your question on an Ask David, would you be open to that, with or without your correct first name? Happy to disguise your name. David D. Burns, MD Dear David, I greatly value your ideas and that you are a cynic. In 6 sessions of the EMDR, I have not felt any better. You are absolutely free to use my name and you don't need to disguise it at all. I live in Columbus, Montana and as far as I know, there is only one person in Bozeman who does Team CBT. I sent her an email but didn't hear back but it's 100 miles from us anyway. Thank you very, very much for your view on EMDR! I was thinking something similar myself. All the very best to you and your family! Most Sincerely, Clay David's Response HI Clay, You're welcome. My website is full of free resources, anxiety class, depression class, more than 300 TEAM podcasts, and more. My book, When Panic Attacks, is pretty cheap in paperback. Also, beta testing of thee Feeling Good App is still free. T = Testing, E = Empathy, A = Addressing Resistance, and M = Methods (more than 100.) A is likely the most important step! Thanks, best, david Matt's Response Hi Dan and David, My guess is that EMDR showed some early results due to the tendency of most therapists to avoid exposure techniques and try to 'smooth over' anxious thinking and trauma, rather than just dive in and explore it, fearlessly. I suspect this created a large cohort of anxious and traumatized patients, waiting in the wings, for such treatment, so it showed immediate favorable data. However, this method is only one of dozens, and the setup is key. Why would you want to overcome something traumatic? Wouldn't it be more useful to remember it and avoid anything that resembles it? Meaning, there may be powerful methods, including exposure and (usually) less-effective methods, like 'eye-jiggling' and other distraction techniques out there for anyone, but why bother with these if the symptoms are helpful and appropriate? This is the main idea in TEAM . People recover when they want to recover, not when someone applies the correct methodology. -Matt Hi Dan, David, and Matt: In addition to being a TEAM therapist, I also practice EMDR. I find it to be very effective, especially when used within the TEAM structure. It may not be for everyone, but it's great to have many options for our clients. -Rhonda David's comment. Yes, and here Matt's is pointing out some of the paradoxical “Outcome Resistance” strategies we use with anxious patients when doing TEAM therapy. We become the voice of the patient's resistance to change, and verbalize all the really positive things about the anxiety symptoms: how they protect us from danger and express our core values as human beings. Paradoxically, this often reduces resistance and opens the door to change. In TEAM, we treat the human being with systematic TEAM therapy. We do not treat symptoms with techniques. The meaning of this may be hard to “see” if you haven't seen or experienced it. But there are a large number of actual therapy sessions your can listen to in the podcasts. Best, David Thanks for asking such terrific questions and for listening! We all greatly appreciate your support. Keep your questions and comments (negative as well as positive) coming! Rhonda, Matt, and David
Raider Nick talks to Dave Furner about the big game against the Tigers, Johnny Bateman and his great tribute to Jarrod Croker.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
299: Ask David: Retirement blues; patients who refuse homework (and the therapists who love them); ADHD; David's new pooping story; and more! We regret that our beloved Matt May, MD could not join us today due to an emergency involving his website. We look forward to him joining us next time for more exciting Ask David's that will include: Does the “self” exist? Does God exist? And MUCH more! We open with two announcements: 1. Return of the awesome Feeling Great Book Club, with Drs. Brandon Vance and Heather Clague, will meet weekly, starting on September 13th. This will be a terrific experience, and only costs $12 per week with a sliding fee scale if you cannot afford it. You will go through the Feel Great book, learn techniques, have fun, and practice in small groups. This is a fantastic opportunity for everyone. For more information, go to: https://www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com/book-club. 2. The TEAM-CBT World Congress, Warsaw Poland, August 18 - 21. This first of a kind event will take place live and virtually, and will be somewhat like David''s famous Intensives with teachers from around the world, many of whom have been featured on this podcast. The CONGRESS will feature interactive sessions which participants can learn and practice the elements of the powerful TEAM system while receiving expert coaching on TEAM techniques. This event is organized by Daniel Minte, Mariusz Wirga, and Yehuda Bar Shalom. For more information, please go to: https://teamcbt.eu Today's questions: Retirement depression / anxiety; patients who refuse to do exposure or psychotherapy homework; treating procrastination and ADHD; David's new pooping story, and more! 1. Paul asks: Are you planning on doing a podcast about people who are about to retire and are very anxious about the prospect and also depressed about closing that chapter in their lives? I'm in that boat. 2. M asks: My patient refuses homework and isn't getting better. I think I'm a victim of what you've referred to as “reverse hypnosis.” What should I do? 3. Heather asks: Hello David! How would you treat ADHD with TEAM-CBT? 4. A asks: Hello sir, Is it okay if I do the written work by typing in my laptop on a word processor or is it must that I write on a paper? Note: The answers below were generated prior to the podcast, and the information provided on the live podcast may be richer and different in a number of ways. In some cases, I did not have time to polish and edit my responses below. I've been super busy developing the Feeling Good App, which is coming along tremendously well. It has the potential to help millions around the world who are struggling with depression and anxiety, but I have to be super careful with my time these days. If interested in beta testing, you can sign up here. 1. Paul asks: Are you planning on doing a podcast about people who are about to retire and are very anxious about the prospect and also depressed about closing that chapter in their lives? I'm in that boat. David's reply Have you read the introduction to Feeling Great? Or done any of the written exercises in that book, or in any of my books? Of listened to my free Ted Talk on my website? We can provide more specific information in the live discussion on the podcast. 2. M asks: My patient refuses homework and isn't getting better. I think I'm a victim of what you've referred to as “reverse hypnosis.” What should I do? Dear Dr Burns, Many thanks for your blogs, podcasts, books and TEAM CBT. I have experienced (and I am experiencing) being hypnotized with a Panic Attack patient with Border Line PD- . I know this after the sessions. During the sessions I feel I cannot even think well. I see this client through SKYPE, And cannot see her face to face due to distances. I have try to follow your approach, but she's resistant, I do include exposure exercises that she never completes. How to do a Shame Attacking Exercise when I cannot go with the patient to the places she needs to in order to do the exposure. I have even been in the phone and she driving, but 2 years later nothing works. Any thoughts will help! Many thanks in advance. M. David's reply Thanks, great question! Some training or individual case consultation or both, or workshops, would help a lot. We have two free weekly training groups for therapists in California and therapists around the world. For example, the last two weeks in our Tuesday group we have focused on the negative thoughts and feelings therapists have during sessions that interfere with their ability to do excellent work. So your question is very timely and relevant! Also, the www.feelinggoodinstitute.com has free and paid training. Two of the finest teachers are Mike Christensen and Dr. Jill Levitt, and there are many others as well. Jill has just released an introductory recorded class on TEAM-CBT that you can purchase and watch whenever you like. She is a brilliant teacher! And yes, you HAVE been hypnotized during sessions! David 3. Heather asks: Hello David!! How would you treat ADHD with TEAM-CBT? Hi there! It is Heather Donnenwirth, from podcast 267. I hope you are doing well. I really enjoyed being apart of the podcast with you, Rhonda, and Kyle. Thanks again for including me in that experience. I have another question for you about the podcast you did on ADHD. I totally agree with you about ADHD not being a diagnosis and agree that is more helpful to treat the symptoms. Many of the clients that I work with have been diagnosed with ADHD or are convinced that they have it. Procrastination seems to be a common symptom of "ADHD" that people want help with and that can be treated easily with the TEAM model and with the anti-procrastination and motivational tools. The symptom that people ask for help with that I am feel less confident about helping them with is difficulty with focus and distractibility, and would love your thoughts about how to treat these symptoms? I have improved my own focus with motivational techniques and with practicing bringing my attention back to what I want to focus on when my mind starts to wonder. Also, taking notes has helped me to stayed focused, but I am curious if you have any other ideas about increasing focus? Sometimes the people I work with have distorted thoughts about focus as well, such as: "If I'm not interested in something, I can't focus on it," and "I need medication to focus," etc. Anyway, I value your knowledge and opinion and wondered if you have any tools for increasing focus? Also, do you treat hyperactivity and excessive talking? I have also noticed that parents some time play an enabling role with kids diagnosed with ADHD, and don't require their children to do schoolwork that they think is too hard or if they are bored and having a hard time focusing. Sorry this is long!!! I hope you are doing well!!! Warmly, Heather Donnenwirth David's reply I'd just ask the person to focus on one moment when they had that problem and then do a Daily Mood Log, as you've pointed out, and also brainstorm with them on how to solve the problem. But first, would have to do empathy and assessment of resistance, same as with anybody! As you point out, the motivational factors can be enormous. For example, Adderall is just the same as Dexedrine, and highly addictive and euphoric street drug. If I had some right now, I'd be highly excited and write 30 pages of stuff! In addition, I can use ADHD as an excuse for not doing stuff that's boring. Someone who is motivated can easily find a solution. The summary before college I was lucky to get a job in a bank in Phoenix. My job was filing checks by hand. Boy, that was boring! I made it a bit less boring by trying to find the most unusual names while I was filing checks alphabetically. One of the many unusual (to my young and uneducated ear) names was J. Karekin Moojian! As freshman in college, I found I had trouble concentrating and grasping what the professors were saying in lectures to large classes of a couple hundred or so students. And I had NO IDEA whatsoever what the teacher was talking about! What helped was simply asking another student as we were walking out of the class. I'd say, “What was the professor trying say?” Then the other student, who seemed way smarter than me, would just give a one sentence summary, and I'd suddenly “get it.” So, if you're motivated, you can find a way! In medical school, I had to memorize gross anatomy. I had little aptitude and no interest. I had never even take a biology class in college, and did not know what was in the “abdomen” or “thorax.” So I made up little games, sitting for hours in the library memorizing stuff. It got me through—just barely1 David 4. A asks: Hello sir, Is it okay if I do the written work by typing in my laptop on a word processor or is it must that I write on a paper? Is it okay if I do the written work by typing in my laptop on a word processor or is it must that I write on a paper. Thank you. David's reply Interesting question! Probably okay either way. No research on this issue! I slightly favor doing it by hand, but that is likely because I have done it that way for 40 + years! d Thanks for listening and reading today! Rhonda, and David
Podcast 296: Forced Empathy: A Master Class--Part 2 of 2 Last week you heard part ! of our work witt Zeina, a young professional woman struggling with a conflict with her mom. Zeina feels like her mother is too critical of her, and she finds the criticisms devastating. In today's podcast, you will hear my co therapist, Dr. Jill Levitt, and I, doing Forced Empathy with Zeina, and you will hear the exciting conclusion of the session. I am including the entiere show notes from last week, in case you have not yet reviewed them. Show notes from last week commence here. Today Dr. Jill Levitt and I do live work with Zeina Halim who has been experiencing some intense negative feelings because of her mother's criticisms of her. Zeina is a member of my weekly training group at Stanford and has appeared on the podcast on several previous occasions (Please provide numbers plus link to podcast page on website.) Zeina is one of our small group leaders in our Tuesday training group. She works with teens and adults in-person in her office in Menlo Park and also provides tele-health sessions for clients living anywhere in California. Dr. Jill Levitt is the co-leader of my Tuesday training group at Stanford and will be my co-therapist today. We hope for some more of the “magic” that frequently appears when we do therapy together. Today's podcast will illustrate a number of teaching points, including these: Forced Empathy: We illustrate exactly how to use this powerful and sophisticated technique. When I first created this technique many years ago, I thought there would be little interest in it, so I rarely taught it in my workshops or training groups. In the past several years, an intense interest in this technique has emerged, so you will get to see exactly how it works. Five Secrets Resistance: There has been great interest in the Five Secrets of Effective Communication that are featured in my book, Feeling Good Together. When used skillfully, they can have a phenomenal effect on any troubled relationship. I am even aware of a case of a woman who was kidnapped at gunpoint by a violent serial rapist who planned to kill her. Out of desperation, she used the Five Secrets I had presented at a workshop he had just attended, and he let her go and turned himself in to the police. The Five Secrets literally saved her life. And yet, many of us stubbornly refuse to use the Five Secrets with family, friends and loved ones. Why do we fight against the very tools that would rapidly bring us peace, love and joy? And what can we do about our own internal “resistance”? The “inner” and “outer” solutions: Whenever you are involved in a conflict with someone, there are two battles raging at the same time. One is the “inner battle” with your own negative thoughts, telling you that you're no good, or that the other person is to blame, and the voice that powerfully urges you to do battle. We approach the “inner battle” with the familiar Daily Mood Log, that helps you pinpoint the distorted messages you are giving yourself. You will see that those messages—the way you talk to yourself when you're upset—are loaded with distortions; such as All-or-Nothing Thinking, Overgeneralizations, Mental Filtering, Discounting the Positive, Mind-Reading, Labeling, Should Statements and Hidden Should Statements, Emotional Reasoning, Other-Blame, and more.In today's session, we do battle with Zeina's distorted thoughts with the Externalization of Voices, arguably one of the most powerful psychotherapy tools ever created. The EAR Checklist / Relationship Journal. The “outer battle” involves the words you use when you respond to the other person's criticisms of you. Here we use the Relationship Journal, another super powerful tools that allows you to analyze your own statements with the EAR Checklist and see the shocking reality that you are creating the very conflict that you are complaining about so vigorously. This involves one of the “Great Death” of the self, which can be profoundly painful, but it also leads to liberation from your self-created misery and the chance for renewed love and connection with the person you feel so alienated from. Two-hour sessions. You can do far more in a single, two-hour session than in many 50 minute sessions scheduled at weekly intervals. I have often said that this is how I always do therapy, and if you have some therapy skills, this model is vastly more effective and cost-effective as well. It puts you under pressure to accomplish something today, right now, and not in the vague or distant future. Uncovering Techniques. You will see how you can use the Man from Mars Technique to uncover more of your patient's negative thoughts and core beliefs. This is just another way of doing the classical “Individual Downward Arrow Technique” that I developed way back in the 1970s. The Acceptance Paradoxes. There is a great deal of talk these days about Acceptance is being an important key in many schools of psychotherapy. But what is acceptance, and how do we teach it to our patients and colleagues? Today's session with Zeina, who has a great interest in Buddhist philosophy and practices, illustrates one of more than 20 paths to acceptance, and this one in particular will teach you the steps in accepting others, especially when you are desperately trying to change them and you are insisting that they “shouldn't” be the way they are! Self-acceptance is always about grasping a gigantic paradox—and that's why I've always called it the Acceptance Paradox, which states: Accepting yourself as you are, warts and all, is actually the greatest change a human being can make. Can you see why this is a paradox? It's because the very moment you accept yourself, everything about you and your world will appear to change. Now here's another acceptance paradox we will explore today. The very moment when you accept another person exactly as she or he is, that person will suddenly change. Of course, that is the exact opposite of what we usually do when we desperately keep trying to “change” them, a strategy that actually forces them to be the very monster you are trying so hard to destroy. By the way, do you know what the plural form of paradox is, when you combine Self- and Other-Acceptance? The plural form is called the Acceptance Paradise. T = Testing is crucial! You cannot do truly effective therapy without the T = Testing. You will find out EXACTLY how effective—or ineffective—you are in every session with every patient. When you listen to the podcasts, you can ask yourself questions like these: How effective are Jill and David being? Will they get good empathy and helpfulness ratings from Zeina? Will we see any reductions in Zeina's powerful negative feelings at the start of the session? Will she make a breakthrough in her relationship with her mother? At the end of the session, you will see the answers to these questions. And if you're a therapist, that kind of powerful and precise information will allow you to grow and learn as a therapist, especially if you approach the information with humility and respect for yourself and your patients. There is almost no limit to the evolution of your therapist skills if you use the T = Testing model I have developed. There is almost no chance for personal growth if you do not use these or similar assessment tools. However, the price of growth is steep. You have to be willing to see your own failures and errors at every session with every patient, and this will often be painful. But this is the pain that can lead to your own personal transformation along with the blossoming of your own superb therapy skills. Today, in Part 1 of the Zeina session, you will hear the T = Testing and E = Empathy parts of the session. Next week, in Part 2, you will hear the very brief A = Assessment of Resistance, which really only included the “Miracle Cure Question: ”What, really, are you, Zeina, hoping for in tonight's session?” You will also hear the amazing M = Methods portion, which will start with Forced Empathy, followed by Externalization of Voices and Five Secrets Practice, along with the final T = Testing and homework assignments for Zeina following the session. Rhonda, Jill, Zeina and I hope you enjoy the podcasts and learn a great deal from them. And we all want to thank you, Zeina for your courageous and brilliant work, sharing your inner self so openly and generously. I believe that sessions like the one our fans will witness today and next week have the potential to provide hope and healing to people around the world, not only today, but for decades to come. At least, that is my hope! I also want to thank you, Jill, for your extraordinary teaching and clinical skills, and for your brilliance and warmth. Thank you for tuning in! Rhonda, Zeina, and David Here is a follow-up note from Zeina Hello David, Jill, and the Tuesday group, Boy, do I have an update for you all! So, at first, I struggled, and I was very worried to have to potentially send an update to the group that may have been disappointing. On Saturday, I saw my mom, and I shared with her the insights that I had in our session. She was appreciative, but I didn't feel very connected to her. I had talked with her about this while she and I were on a walk, and I wondered if maybe walking while talking was taking away some of the intimacy or connection that might have happened if we had been looking at each other while talking. I also noticed that while I was externally behaving somewhat better if my mom criticized me, internally, I still hadn't progressed very far. I would still feel very distant from her; and I still wasn't doing the five secrets. Today, on Sunday, I saw my mom again. While she did not criticize me, we still got into a little bit of an argument. I was a bit angry, but as I let myself cool off, I noticed myself feeling incredibly sad inside--like a sadness that had been building and building over the past few weeks. I tried to talk with my mom about it, but she resisted at first. We had a project that we were working on together today and she thought it would be better if we talked on another day and got back to our project; I insisted, however, and asked that we please talk today. I did not realize it at the time, but I think I had some major hidden emotion stuff happening with my mom (more on this later, perhaps some hidden sadness that was masquerading as anger). I shared with her that I had felt incredibly sad and genuinely worried about our relationship. I recently moved in order to live closer to her and see her more often, but I had noticed that almost every time she came over to visit me at my new place, we would get into an argument at least once. I shared that these arguments had really been weighing on me and worrying me. I also told her that I noticed that we would get into arguments when we were at my place, but not as much when I visited her at her place, maybe because I am so particular about how I like things to be at my place. She, then, said in a very gentle and loving way, "I think ‘particular' about your space is the operative word here." I realized that she was totally right, and I was so pleasantly surprised by how gentle and loving she was when she said it. Feeling encouraged by how the conversation was going, I shared more and said that I had noticed that I had become more sensitive around our arguments lately and that I was feeling very disconnected from her, and I didn't know how to get reconnected with her. I also shared that I had been feeling lonely in my life in general lately and made a guess that maybe my loneliness was making me expect more from our relationship. Additionally, I also guessed that I might be feeling more drained emotionally because I am doing more hours of therapy per week than I have ever done in my life, and maybe I had yet to find the right balance of how to recreate and regenerate my energy in my off-hours. I shed many tears all throughout this whole conversation. I checked in with myself and noticed that I was feeling more connected to my mom, but there felt like there was still more, particularly about my loneliness. This next paragraph might seem like a major tangent, but hang in there!--I promise it is all connected :) Then, I switched gears a little bit to share with her a different conversation and insight I had had in the past week or so about my recent feelings of loneliness. I had been having a conversation with my very dear friend, James, about how I had been feeling lonely, but was not feeling as drawn to connecting with most of my girlfriends, but only really drawn to my guy friends. Initially, I thought it was a male-female difference, but then I noticed that I was feeling drawn to my new friend Leigh Harrington, who is female. I realized that maybe the difference had more to do with the fact that almost all my male friends and Leigh were quite funny and playful people, whereas most of my girlfriends were more serious people. As for myself, I tend to be a more serious person and am not as funny or playful as many people. I realized that I was relying on other people for my laughter, playfulness and fun, rather than learning how to create that myself. Having just done some flirting training with Matthew May earlier that week, I saw that humor, like flirting, can be a learned skill and might have more to do with a willingness to take risks than an innate quality that people either have or don't have. I was feeling excited that I could learn to be funnier and flirtier and create more laughter in my life, instead of relying on other funny people for this. I shared all of this with my mom. She then went on to make a further connection that really blew me away. She said, "I bet if you start to be funnier and create more laughter for yourself and others, you will also start to feel less lonely." It felt so true! The times I feel most connected to people are when I am laughing with them. THIS is the kind of relationship and connection with my mom that I had been missing lately--when I share deeply with her and, because she knows me so well, she is able to further my insight and understanding of myself and help me to grow. I feel so connected to her now. I realize now that I think part of my resistance to using the 5 secrets with my mom was maybe a hidden emotion component--I had these deep feelings and worries about our relationship; I was confused if moving closer to her had actually helped our relationship or if it was harming it, and I was genuinely missing these kinds of deep, connecting conversations with her, which we had not had in a while. My mom has been hanging out at my place all day today and now I notice myself being easily loving and patient with her and my being "particular" about my things and my space has vanished--at least temporarily! There are a lot of take-aways for me from this whole thing, but one of the biggest ones is that I think I was trying to do five secrets without really fully going into my "I feel" statements as much as I needed to--I feel statements are often the secret that I neglect the most as a person and as a therapist. So, to connect to what we are doing this week in class, I think I would make a guess that when I ignore the five secret that I need to do the most and struggle with, it can hamper my ability to do the rest of the five secrets effectively and genuinely. I could write a lot more about all of this, but I think I will stop here for now. I hope this wasn't too confusing as I know I touched on a lot of different things. Thank you all for your time and attention. I'm open to comments or questions. Warmly, Zeina Here is a reply to Zeina from one of the Stanford Tuesday group members Gosh! Zeina, this is beautiful and so straight from the heart. Takes immense courage to do a deep dive in exploring oneself. I have been marveling at how meticulously you‘ve sifted through and worked towards addressing the different dimensions of the relationship between you and your mum. You are also an amazing raconteur, you've brought out the subtle nuances so beautifully! Your mail took me on an emotional roller coaster ride. It was such a compelling read and had me as a captive co-traveler, holding my breath, and crossing my fingers! I loved your insights on the “I feel”. Reading that was a personal breakthrough for me, where my relationship with my mum is concerned. That's exactly what is missing in our relationship too … whoaaaaa! I just don't share my feelings with her! I love how you were able to do that though, because I can feel this huge wave of resistance engulfing me, despite my insight. I know I'm not yet ready to take the next step! Funny, how tough it can be to be vulnerable before one's own mom! More power to you Zeina for ‘daring greatly' and taking the next step after the Tuesday class. Also, for keeping us posted and for sharing with us in such a detailed manner, and in the process, helping us all learn and grow. Deep regards for your mum as well. She comes across as a tenacious mother of a tenacious daughter … if I may say so. Warmly, Nivedita. Here is a second follow-up from Zeina. Hello David, Jill and Tuesday group, I just wanted to send another update as my relationship with my mom has continued to evolve in quite beautiful and magical ways since I sent this last email. It seems to me that maybe she has stopped criticizing me entirely--I'm not quite sure. Maybe I need to pay more attention. Perhaps if she does criticize me, she does it in a gentler way or maybe I am less sensitive to it. All I know is that she has been wonderfully supportive of me in these past few weeks and we have not gotten into a single argument. Our relationship suddenly seems easy in a way that I have never experienced before. I am so profoundly grateful. I know that we will probably relapse at some point and this may not last forever, but, now I know this is possible. Now, I know my way back here. I have always wanted a relationship like this with my mother, and I always thought it wasn't possible because of who she was as a person. Little did I know that to have the mother I always wanted, I needed to do the changing. I knew that the 5 secrets were powerful, but I had thought that their power was more confined to a single interaction or the moment when you use them. I don't know that I have been especially good at practicing the 5 secrets with my mom lately, yet the effect seems to keep lasting and lasting. I am truly speechless at the profound transformation that has happened. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I would love any responses! Zeina Here is some of the feedback from the training group in the section, “What did you like the best about today's training session?” Jill's thoughtfulness in selecting the Forced Empathy technique over the Relationship Journal. Jill looked at what had worked in the past for Zeina and saw it as a potential strategy for her current concerns and the result was tremendously positive. I loved the training! I loved watching forced empathy and I began to empathize with a close relative simply by watching Zeina empathize with her mom. I was crying throughout. It is hard to describe how touched I was Zeina's honesty and her responses to forced empathy was amazing! Amazing personal work. Entire session was great learning experience for me. How Forced Empathy brought the shift in Zeina's way of thinking. I really enjoy witnessing the live sessions including this one with Zeina. Seeing how the totality of the model comes together in real time with the clinician's judgment and intuition guiding the specific process is really enlightening and seeing someone's beliefs shift in real time is very inspiring and moving. It was a really nice way to re-join the larger group and I'm glad to hear that went into David's thinking in scheduling it. I really like the Forced Empathy. Zeina had a lot of resistance at the beginning. However, She shed tears during doing the Forced Empathy. I also like the role reversal when doing the Externalization voices. I can always learn how to deal with the difficulties of life from David and Jill's wisdom. The whole thing was so great. I was really moved by the forced empathy. I always LOVE seeing forced empathy modeled to get better at this complex skill, and I am also, like many others, almost always blown away with how powerful it is. I also thought this was a great example of multiple paths (individual mood and relationship work) and multiple methods being all used in one two-hour session so skillful and masterful. I loved the open ended approach and the ongoing exploration until the goal was formed/explored/ discovered. For me, it was a demonstration of trust in the process. I especially liked David's "The Man From Mars" that seemed to me an amazing tool with sorting out the mess of relationship work. I also loved Forced Empathy especially here with the work on mother daughter's relationship. I am really intrigued to explore it for myself in regard to my relationship with my parents and my daughter. Seeing the whole encounter with Zeina and seeing how Jill and David thought through it together, it was all so organic and incredible to witness Very helpful to see the progression of the session. Zeina's session has been a gift not only to us, but also to our mothers. Forced empathy felt like a pivot point in treatment and I loved that Z was able to go deep and connect with her mother's feelings. I have plans to travel and visit my mother next month and have been feeling anxious about it. I was reminded of the unconditional love of a mother that is beautiful and spiritual. David and Jill did amazing and transformational work. This is so inspiring! I liked everything and how the methods and techniques were woven together very skillfully. Personal work is really the best and so gratifying to see. David made a comment at the end about how it would help with motivation to use the skills and work more on them after seeing them in action and I do agree with his comment even if I'm totally not paraphrasing correctly. I LOVE personal work because it bring these skills to life in a way that role plays don't. and of course, it's all the better that someone gets a personal benefit, that's all good too. David and Jill did an amazing job again! However, Zeina's honesty and vulnerability was the greatest gift during this session. I could relate to her struggle as well, so I was extra impressed about her determination to work on this issue. It was amazing personal work for me. I feel so grateful for this experience. This was another example of the "magic" of TEAM, especially when the therapists are the incredibly skilled Jill and David. What a great, vulnerable and poignant example of relationship issues with a parent. I was very impressed and moved by the power of the Forced Empathy technique. By Zeina's ability to feel into the point of view of her mother, and her insights and connections, especially around how the times of criticism can be seen as opportunities for greater acceptance and love. Moving and really beautiful personal work!!! I was moved to tears when Zeina cried her mother's tears during the Forced Empathy exercise and said "I need her to accept me as I am." Wow--that was so powerful! And as for so many others, this experience felt super relevant and helpful to me for one of my own important relationships, and I'm feeling excited to try out Sergio's approach on my own loved one. Forced Empathy: I loved all of it! So helpful and informative to witness live work. I immediately got why the “what's my grade?” question was skipped (since the use of the Forced empathy technique had yielded such powerful results). I am eager to try this with a particular client who is having similar issues with their mom. On a more personal level, I felt extremely close to Zeina and seeing how vulnerable and open she was willing to be. This has melted away a lot of my resistance in using the 5 secrets with my own mom. Thank you Zeina! I liked seeing the "visitor from Mars" used to uncover Zeina's thoughts when David was having trouble understanding what the issue was. It was great to see David feeling a little "lost" and see how he worked through that. Watching the Forced Empathy technique was amazing! I also appreciated when Jill offered several options for which direction to go and explained her rationale. I found it to be a helpful learning moment and also liked the warmth that came across. I saw my mom's critical behavior as coming from love-brought tears. Same for my Dad Zeina did really powerful and enlightening work! It was also a great learning experience to observe David & Jill. I have enjoyed listening to and learning wonderful techniques from Jill and David. I can definitely relate to parent's/child criticism conflict myself, so I have learned some methods of effective communication, empathy skills, especially the opposite empathy (where you step into the shoes of a person you have a conflict with) and learn to empathize strongly vs feeling frustrated and having blame thoughts I love every time we do personal work. I always learn and grow so much personally and professionally. Thank you, Zeina for this amazing gift, and thank you, David and Jill for your masterful work. I loved every moment of it! Amazing personal work! I enjoyed the entire process. I appreciated the partnership between David and Jill. I so appreciated Zeina's work and vulnerability. I like David's creative way of doing the Ind. Downward arrow using "man from Mars" perspective. I liked getting to see, again, the power of Forced Empathy, as it illuminated how we create the very behavior in the other, that we then complain about. I loved how Zeina surrendered to doing the Forced Empathy exercise with such wonderful openness. I loved the seamless way Dr Burns and Jill moved between the methods. And Zeina's courage to be vulnerable. Had an aha moment myself - of course her mother will criticize her because the last thing she wants is for Zeina to have disastrous finances like her own. It shows deep love and caring Another Master Class! I loved watching David and Jill working with Zeina. Change the Focus is just an amazing Method. I appreciate Zeina's vulnerable disclosures. Such generosity is much appreciated. This is an amazing group, and I feel privileged to learn from such sophisticated practitioners, who are so generous with their insights and decades' worth experiences. Some days I just can't believe my luck to be with such heartfelt, dedicated, compassionate and wise folks! I very specifically like seeing a long personal work session...the big picture seeing the whole session. Thank you! I learned so very much and how things smooth into each other as session progresses. It was great seeing Forced Empathy demonstrated as I've never seen it before and learned so much from the overall training with Zeina, David and Jill. So glad Zeina was willing to be so vulnerable; really appreciated at the end when she said she felt pressure to empathize with her mom if she was vulnerable with her and mom laid it on thick, was wondering the same exact thing in that very moment! Loved how David diffused that for her and put less pressure on how she would handle it! So grateful to be part of this awesome group where I am growing and learning every moment! The hi quality demonstration of Five Secrets empathy by David and Jill Jill's patience. David waiting for AHA MOMENTS and pointing them out and best of all ZEINA! Personal work is always insightful. I really like the forced empathy technique. I also enjoyed the display of creativity and flexibility of the team model. Amy would regularly explain that it was a model to be used creatively and it's exciting to know there is so much to learn. It can be adapted to each individual. Viewing therapy as a series of skills to learn rather than a step-by-step instructional book is what makes me really love TEAM. Loved how Dr Burns used the individual downward arrow so seamlessly during the empathy phase. Dr Burns empathy too was spot on when he said to Zeina that "she could not lean on her Mom." This one line was really powerful for me and resonated deeply. Loved Jill's internal solution as well as the forced empathy option along with the option of working on the good reasons not to do the 5 secrets. Jill was on a roll with her empathy ... "feels like you're walking on eggshells and don't know what will hurt her." I also liked Jill's disclosure about the times she gets critical with her boys are times when she is most concerned about them. Also liked Jill highlighting how Zeina practicing the Five Secrets was not working at a point because she was not using enough feeling empathy unlike as when doing the Forced Empathy
Podcast 295: Forced Empathy: A Master Class--Part 1 of 2 Podcasts 294 (Part 1) and 295 (Part 2) Forced Empathy: A Master Class Today Dr. Jill Levitt and I do live work with Zeina Halim who has been experiencing some intense negative feelings because of her mother's criticisms of her. Zeina is a member of my weekly training group at Stanford and has appeared on the podcast on several previous occasions (Please provide numbers plus link to podcast page on website.) Zeina is one of our small group leaders in our Tuesday training group. She works with teens and adults in-person in her office in Menlo Park and also provides tele-health sessions for clients living anywhere in California. Dr. Jill Levitt is the co-leader of my Tuesday training group at Stanford and will be my co-therapist today. We hope for some more of the “magic” that frequently appears when we do therapy together. Today's podcast will illustrate a number of teaching points, including these: Forced Empathy: We illustrate exactly how to use this powerful and sophisticated technique. When I first created this technique many years ago, I thought there would be little interest in it, so I rarely taught it in my workshops or training groups. In the past several years, an intense interest in this technique has emerged, so you will get to see exactly how it works. Five Secrets Resistance: There has been great interest in the Five Secrets of Effective Communication that are featured in my book, Feeling Good Together. When used skillfully, they can have a phenomenal effect on any troubled relationship. I am even aware of a case of a woman who was kidnapped at gunpoint by a violent serial rapist who planned to kill her. Out of desperation, she used the Five Secrets I had presented at a workshop he had just attended, and he let her go and turned himself in to the police. The Five Secrets literally saved her life. And yet, many of us stubbornly refuse to use the Five Secrets with family, friends and loved ones. Why do we fight against the very tools that would rapidly bring us peace, love and joy? And what can we do about our own internal “resistance”? The “inner” and “outer” solutions: Whenever you are involved in a conflict with someone, there are two battles raging at the same time. One is the “inner battle” with your own negative thoughts, telling you that you're no good, or that the other person is to blame, and the voice that powerfully urges you to do battle. We approach the “inner battle” with the familiar Daily Mood Log, that helps you pinpoint the distorted messages you are giving yourself. You will see that those messages—the way you talk to yourself when you're upset—are loaded with distortions; such as All-or-Nothing Thinking, Overgeneralizations, Mental Filtering, Discounting the Positive, Mind-Reading, Labeling, Should Statements and Hidden Should Statements, Emotional Reasoning, Other-Blame, and more. In today's session, we do battle with Zeina's distorted thoughts with the Externalization of Voices, arguably one of the most powerful psychotherapy tools ever created. The EAR Checklist / Relationship Journal. The “outer battle” involves the words you use when you respond to the other person's criticisms of you. Here we use the Relationship Journal, another super powerful tools that allows you to analyze your own statements with the EAR Checklist and see the shocking reality that you are creating the very conflict that you are complaining about so vigorously. This involves one of the “Great Death” of the self, which can be profoundly painful, but it also leads to liberation from your self-created misery and the chance for renewed love and connection with the person you feel so alienated from. Two-hour sessions. You can do far more in a single, two-hour session than in many 50 minute sessions scheduled at weekly intervals. I have often said that this is how I always do therapy, and if you have some therapy skills, this model is vastly more effective and cost-effective as well. It puts you under pressure to accomplish something today, right now, and not in the vague or distant future. Uncovering Techniques. You will see how you can use the Man from Mars Technique to uncover more of your patient's negative thoughts and core beliefs. This is just another way of doing the classical “Individual Downward Arrow Technique” that I developed way back in the 1970s. The Acceptance Paradoxes. There is a great deal of talk these days about Acceptance is being an important key in many schools of psychotherapy. But what is acceptance, and how do we teach it to our patients and colleagues? Today's session with Zeina, who has a great interest in Buddhist philosophy and practices, illustrates one of more than 20 paths to acceptance, and this one in particular will teach you the steps in accepting others, especially when you are desperately trying to change them and you are insisting that they “shouldn't” be the way they are! Self-acceptance is always about grasping a gigantic paradox—and that's why I've always called it the Acceptance Paradox, which states: Accepting yourself as you are, warts and all, is actually the greatest change a human being can make. Can you see why this is a paradox? It's because the very moment you accept yourself, everything about you and your world will appear to change. Now here's another acceptance paradox we will explore today. The very moment when you accept another person exactly as she or he is, that person will suddenly change. Of course, that is the exact opposite of what we usually do when we desperately keep trying to “change” them, a strategy that actually forces them to be the very monster you are trying so hard to destroy. By the way, do you know what the plural form of paradox is, when you combine Self- and Other-Acceptance? The plural form is called the Acceptance Paradise. T = Testing is crucial! You cannot do truly effective therapy without the T = Testing. You will find out EXACTLY how effective—or ineffective—you are in every session with every patient. When you listen to the podcasts, you can ask yourself questions like these: How effective are Jill and David being? Will they get good empathy and helpfulness ratings from Zeina? Will we see any reductions in Zeina's powerful negative feelings at the start of the session? Will she make a breakthrough in her relationship with her mother? At the end of the session, you will see the answers to these questions. And if you're a therapist, that kind of powerful and precise information will allow you to grow and learn as a therapist, especially if you approach the information with humility and respect for yourself and your patients. There is almost no limit to the evolution of your therapist skills if you use the T = Testing model I have developed. There is almost no chance for personal growth if you do not use these or similar assessment tools. However, the price of growth is steep. You have to be willing to see your own failures and errors at every session with every patient, and this will often be painful. But this is the pain that can lead to your own personal transformation along with the blossoming of your own superb therapy skills. Today, in Part 1 of the Zeina session, you will hear the T = Testing and E = Empathy parts of the session. Next week, in Part 2, you will hear the very brief A = Assessment of Resistance, which really only included the “Miracle Cure Question: ”What, really, are you, Zeina, hoping for in tonight's session?” You will also hear the amazing M = Methods portion, which will start with Forced Empathy, followed by Externalization of Voices and Five Secrets Practice, along with the final T = Testing and homework assignments for Zeina following the session. Rhonda, Jill, Zeina and I hope you enjoy the podcasts and learn a great deal from them. And we all want to thank you, Zeina for your courageous and brilliant work, sharing your inner self so openly and generously. I believe that sessions like the one our fans will witness today and next week have the potential to provide hope and healing to people around the world, not only today, but for decades to come. At least, that is my hope! I also want to thank you, Jill, for your extraordinary teaching and clinical skills, and for your brilliance and warmth. Thank you for tuning in! Rhonda, Zeina, and David Contact information for Jill and Zeina: please provide what you want to have included in the show notes. Here is a follow-up note from Zeina Hello David, Jill, and the Tuesday group, Boy, do I have an update for you all! So, at first, I struggled, and I was very worried to have to potentially send an update to the group that may have been disappointing. On Saturday, I saw my mom, and I shared with her the insights that I had in our session. She was appreciative, but I didn't feel very connected to her. I had talked with her about this while she and I were on a walk, and I wondered if maybe walking while talking was taking away some of the intimacy or connection that might have happened if we had been looking at each other while talking. I also noticed that while I was externally behaving somewhat better if my mom criticized me, internally, I still hadn't progressed very far. I would still feel very distant from her; and I still wasn't doing the five secrets. Today, on Sunday, I saw my mom again. While she did not criticize me, we still got into a little bit of an argument. I was a bit angry, but as I let myself cool off, I noticed myself feeling incredibly sad inside--like a sadness that had been building and building over the past few weeks. I tried to talk with my mom about it, but she resisted at first. We had a project that we were working on together today and she thought it would be better if we talked on another day and got back to our project; I insisted, however, and asked that we please talk today. I did not realize it at the time, but I think I had some major hidden emotion stuff happening with my mom (more on this later, perhaps some hidden sadness that was masquerading as anger). I shared with her that I had felt incredibly sad and genuinely worried about our relationship. I recently moved in order to live closer to her and see her more often, but I had noticed that almost every time she came over to visit me at my new place, we would get into an argument at least once. I shared that these arguments had really been weighing on me and worrying me. I also told her that I noticed that we would get into arguments when we were at my place, but not as much when I visited her at her place, maybe because I am so particular about how I like things to be at my place. She, then, said in a very gentle and loving way, "I think ‘particular' about your space is the operative word here." I realized that she was totally right, and I was so pleasantly surprised by how gentle and loving she was when she said it. Feeling encouraged by how the conversation was going, I shared more and said that I had noticed that I had become more sensitive around our arguments lately and that I was feeling very disconnected from her, and I didn't know how to get reconnected with her. I also shared that I had been feeling lonely in my life in general lately and made a guess that maybe my loneliness was making me expect more from our relationship. Additionally, I also guessed that I might be feeling more drained emotionally because I am doing more hours of therapy per week than I have ever done in my life, and maybe I had yet to find the right balance of how to recreate and regenerate my energy in my off-hours. I shed many tears all throughout this whole conversation. I checked in with myself and noticed that I was feeling more connected to my mom, but there felt like there was still more, particularly about my loneliness. This next paragraph might seem like a major tangent, but hang in there!--I promise it is all connected :) Then, I switched gears a little bit to share with her a different conversation and insight I had had in the past week or so about my recent feelings of loneliness. I had been having a conversation with my very dear friend, James, about how I had been feeling lonely, but was not feeling as drawn to connecting with most of my girlfriends, but only really drawn to my guy friends. Initially, I thought it was a male-female difference, but then I noticed that I was feeling drawn to my new friend Leigh Harrington, who is female. I realized that maybe the difference had more to do with the fact that almost all my male friends and Leigh were quite funny and playful people, whereas most of my girlfriends were more serious people. As for myself, I tend to be a more serious person and am not as funny or playful as many people. I realized that I was relying on other people for my laughter, playfulness and fun, rather than learning how to create that myself. Having just done some flirting training with Matthew May earlier that week, I saw that humor, like flirting, can be a learned skill and might have more to do with a willingness to take risks than an innate quality that people either have or don't have. I was feeling excited that I could learn to be funnier and flirtier and create more laughter in my life, instead of relying on other funny people for this. I shared all of this with my mom. She then went on to make a further connection that really blew me away. She said, "I bet if you start to be funnier and create more laughter for yourself and others, you will also start to feel less lonely." It felt so true! The times I feel most connected to people are when I am laughing with them. THIS is the kind of relationship and connection with my mom that I had been missing lately--when I share deeply with her and, because she knows me so well, she is able to further my insight and understanding of myself and help me to grow. I feel so connected to her now. I realize now that I think part of my resistance to using the 5 secrets with my mom was maybe a hidden emotion component--I had these deep feelings and worries about our relationship; I was confused if moving closer to her had actually helped our relationship or if it was harming it, and I was genuinely missing these kinds of deep, connecting conversations with her, which we had not had in a while. My mom has been hanging out at my place all day today and now I notice myself being easily loving and patient with her and my being "particular" about my things and my space has vanished--at least temporarily! There are a lot of take-aways for me from this whole thing, but one of the biggest ones is that I think I was trying to do five secrets without really fully going into my "I feel" statements as much as I needed to--I feel statements are often the secret that I neglect the most as a person and as a therapist. So, to connect to what we are doing this week in class, I think I would make a guess that when I ignore the five secret that I need to do the most and struggle with, it can hamper my ability to do the rest of the five secrets effectively and genuinely. I could write a lot more about all of this, but I think I will stop here for now. I hope this wasn't too confusing as I know I touched on a lot of different things. Thank you all for your time and attention. I'm open to comments or questions. Warmly, Zeina Here is a reply to Zeina from one of the Stanford Tuesday group members Gosh! Zeina, this is beautiful and so straight from the heart. Takes immense courage to do a deep dive in exploring oneself. I have been marveling at how meticulously you‘ve sifted through and worked towards addressing the different dimensions of the relationship between you and your mum. You are also an amazing raconteur, you've brought out the subtle nuances so beautifully! Your mail took me on an emotional roller coaster ride. It was such a compelling read and had me as a captive co-traveler, holding my breath, and crossing my fingers! I loved your insights on the “I feel”. Reading that was a personal breakthrough for me, where my relationship with my mum is concerned. That's exactly what is missing in our relationship too … whoaaaaa! I just don't share my feelings with her! I love how you were able to do that though, because I can feel this huge wave of resistance engulfing me, despite my insight. I know I'm not yet ready to take the next step! Funny, how tough it can be to be vulnerable before one's own mom! More power to you Zeina for ‘daring greatly' and taking the next step after the Tuesday class. Also, for keeping us posted and for sharing with us in such a detailed manner, and in the process, helping us all learn and grow. Deep regards for your mum as well. She comes across as a tenacious mother of a tenacious daughter … if I may say so. Warmly, Nivedita. Here is a second follow-up from Zeina. Hello David, Jill and Tuesday group, I just wanted to send another update as my relationship with my mom has continued to evolve in quite beautiful and magical ways since I sent this last email. It seems to me that maybe she has stopped criticizing me entirely--I'm not quite sure. Maybe I need to pay more attention. Perhaps if she does criticize me, she does it in a gentler way or maybe I am less sensitive to it. All I know is that she has been wonderfully supportive of me in these past few weeks and we have not gotten into a single argument. Our relationship suddenly seems easy in a way that I have never experienced before. I am so profoundly grateful. I know that we will probably relapse at some point and this may not last forever, but, now I know this is possible. Now, I know my way back here. I have always wanted a relationship like this with my mother, and I always thought it wasn't possible because of who she was as a person. Little did I know that to have the mother I always wanted, I needed to do the changing. I knew that the 5 secrets were powerful, but I had thought that their power was more confined to a single interaction or the moment when you use them. I don't know that I have been especially good at practicing the 5 secrets with my mom lately, yet the effect seems to keep lasting and lasting. I am truly speechless at the profound transformation that has happened. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I would love any responses! Zeina Here is some of the feedback from the training group in the section, “What did you like the best about today's training session?” Jill's thoughtfulness in selecting the Forced Empathy technique over the Relationship Journal. Jill looked at what had worked in the past for Zeina and saw it as a potential strategy for her current concerns and the result was tremendously positive. I loved the training! I loved watching forced empathy and I began to empathize with a close relative simply by watching Zeina empathize with her mom. I was crying throughout. It is hard to describe how touched I was Zeina's honesty and her responses to forced empathy was amazing! Amazing personal work. Entire session was great learning experience for me. How Forced Empathy brought the shift in Zeina's way of thinking. I really enjoy witnessing the live sessions including this one with Zeina. Seeing how the totality of the model comes together in real time with the clinician's judgment and intuition guiding the specific process is really enlightening and seeing someone's beliefs shift in real time is very inspiring and moving. It was a really nice way to re-join the larger group and I'm glad to hear that went into David's thinking in scheduling it. I really like the Forced Empathy. Zeina had a lot of resistance at the beginning. However, She shed tears during doing the Forced Empathy. I also like the role reversal when doing the Externalization voices. I can always learn how to deal with the difficulties of life from David and Jill's wisdom. The whole thing was so great. I was really moved by the forced empathy. I always LOVE seeing forced empathy modeled to get better at this complex skill, and I am also, like many others, almost always blown away with how powerful it is. I also thought this was a great example of multiple paths (individual mood and relationship work) and multiple methods being all used in one two-hour session so skillful and masterful. I loved the open ended approach and the ongoing exploration until the goal was formed/explored/ discovered. For me, it was a demonstration of trust in the process. I especially liked David's "The Man From Mars" that seemed to me an amazing tool with sorting out the mess of relationship work. I also loved Forced Empathy especially here with the work on mother daughter's relationship. I am really intrigued to explore it for myself in regard to my relationship with my parents and my daughter. Seeing the whole encounter with Zeina and seeing how Jill and David thought through it together, it was all so organic and incredible to witness Very helpful to see the progression of the session. Zeina's session has been a gift not only to us, but also to our mothers. Forced empathy felt like a pivot point in treatment and I loved that Z was able to go deep and connect with her mother's feelings. I have plans to travel and visit my mother next month and have been feeling anxious about it. I was reminded of the unconditional love of a mother that is beautiful and spiritual. David and Jill did amazing and transformational work. This is so inspiring! I liked everything and how the methods and techniques were woven together very skillfully. Personal work is really the best and so gratifying to see. David made a comment at the end about how it would help with motivation to use the skills and work more on them after seeing them in action and I do agree with his comment even if I'm totally not paraphrasing correctly. I LOVE personal work because it bring these skills to life in a way that role plays don't. and of course, it's all the better that someone gets a personal benefit, that's all good too. David and Jill did an amazing job again! However, Zeina's honesty and vulnerability was the greatest gift during this session. I could relate to her struggle as well, so I was extra impressed about her determination to work on this issue. It was amazing personal work for me. I feel so grateful for this experience. This was another example of the "magic" of TEAM, especially when the therapists are the incredibly skilled Jill and David. What a great, vulnerable and poignant example of relationship issues with a parent. I was very impressed and moved by the power of the Forced Empathy technique. By Zeina's ability to feel into the point of view of her mother, and her insights and connections, especially around how the times of criticism can be seen as opportunities for greater acceptance and love. Moving and really beautiful personal work!!! I was moved to tears when Zeina cried her mother's tears during the Forced Empathy exercise and said "I need her to accept me as I am." Wow--that was so powerful! And as for so many others, this experience felt super relevant and helpful to me for one of my own important relationships, and I'm feeling excited to try out Sergio's approach on my own loved one. Forced Empathy: I loved all of it! So helpful and informative to witness live work. I immediately got why the “what's my grade?” question was skipped (since the use of the Forced empathy technique had yielded such powerful results). I am eager to try this with a particular client who is having similar issues with their mom. On a more personal level, I felt extremely close to Zeina and seeing how vulnerable and open she was willing to be. This has melted away a lot of my resistance in using the 5 secrets with my own mom. Thank you Zeina! I liked seeing the "visitor from Mars" used to uncover Zeina's thoughts when David was having trouble understanding what the issue was. It was great to see David feeling a little "lost" and see how he worked through that. Watching the Forced Empathy technique was amazing! I also appreciated when Jill offered several options for which direction to go and explained her rationale. I found it to be a helpful learning moment and also liked the warmth that came across. I saw my mom's critical behavior as coming from love-brought tears. Same for my Dad Zeina did really powerful and enlightening work! It was also a great learning experience to observe David & Jill. I have enjoyed listening to and learning wonderful techniques from Jill and David. I can definitely relate to parent's/child criticism conflict myself, so I have learned some methods of effective communication, empathy skills, especially the opposite empathy (where you step into the shoes of a person you have a conflict with) and learn to empathize strongly vs feeling frustrated and having blame thoughts I love every time we do personal work. I always learn and grow so much personally and professionally. Thank you, Zeina for this amazing gift, and thank you, David and Jill for your masterful work. I loved every moment of it! Amazing personal work! I enjoyed the entire process. I appreciated the partnership between David and Jill. I so appreciated Zeina's work and vulnerability. I like David's creative way of doing the Ind. Downward arrow using "man from Mars" perspective. I liked getting to see, again, the power of Forced Empathy, as it illuminated how we create the very behavior in the other, that we then complain about. I loved how Zeina surrendered to doing the Forced Empathy exercise with such wonderful openness. I loved the seamless way Dr Burns and Jill moved between the methods. And Zeina's courage to be vulnerable. Had an aha moment myself - of course her mother will criticize her because the last thing she wants is for Zeina to have disastrous finances like her own. It shows deep love and caring Another Master Class! I loved watching David and Jill working with Zeina. Change the Focus is just an amazing Method. I appreciate Zeina's vulnerable disclosures. Such generosity is much appreciated. This is an amazing group, and I feel privileged to learn from such sophisticated practitioners, who are so generous with their insights and decades' worth experiences. Some days I just can't believe my luck to be with such heartfelt, dedicated, compassionate and wise folks! I very specifically like seeing a long personal work session...the big picture seeing the whole session. Thank you! I learned so very much and how things smooth into each other as session progresses. It was great seeing Forced Empathy demonstrated as I've never seen it before and learned so much from the overall training with Zeina, David and Jill. So glad Zeina was willing to be so vulnerable; really appreciated at the end when she said she felt pressure to empathize with her mom if she was vulnerable with her and mom laid it on thick, was wondering the same exact thing in that very moment! Loved how David diffused that for her and put less pressure on how she would handle it! So grateful to be part of this awesome group where I am growing and learning every moment! The high quality demonstration of Five Secrets empathy by David and Jill Jill's patience. David waiting for AHA MOMENTS and pointing them out and best of all ZEINA! Personal work is always insightful. I really like the forced empathy technique. I also enjoyed the display of creativity and flexibility of the team model. Amy would regularly explain that it was a model to be used creatively and it's exciting to know there is so much to learn. It can be adapted to each individual. Viewing therapy as a series of skills to learn rather than a step-by-step instructional book is what makes me really love TEAM. Loved how Dr Burns used the individual downward arrow so seamlessly during the empathy phase. Dr Burns empathy too was spot on when he said to Zeina that "she could not lean on her Mom." This one line was really powerful for me and resonated deeply. Loved Jill's internal solution as well as the forced empathy option along with the option of working on the good reasons not to do the 5 secrets. Jill was on a roll with her empathy ... "feels like you're walking on eggshells and don't know what will hurt her." I also liked Jill's disclosure about the times she gets critical with her boys are times when she is most concerned about them. Also liked Jill highlighting how Zeina practicing the Five Secrets was not working at a point because she was not using enough feeling empathy unlike as when doing the Forced Empathy
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#254, Ask Matt, Rhonda, and David (with the famed Dr. Rutherford Knows) Today we are again joined by the fantastic Dr. Matthew May for an Ask David. Rhonda and I are thrilled that Matt will be joining us every month. His input will give you a broader range of insights and answers to your many excellent questions! Here are the questions we will address on today's podcast. Karine asks: How can I help my daughter with anorexia? Shirley asks: How can you deal with people who are emotionally abusive, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication? Guy asks: Are there any Five Secrets practice groups I could join? * * * Karine asks: How do I help my daughter with anorexia? Hello Dr. Burns, I am trying to help my daughter who is starting to have anorexia with your book as the consultations are not working and we are waiting on a list for a specialist which can take months or even year here in Quebec. I have read both of your last books and i am getting good to use it for social anxiety. However. i can't see exactly how to apply it for eating disorder. I asked her to list the benefits she gained from not eating and i am trying to help her see the cognitive disorder in it but it is much harder (ex: i loose weight quickly...which will do ... ) i may help her see the cognitive disorder in the « which will do ... » but not in the « i will lose weight » statement ). Could you help me see the pattern i should follow please as i really think your technique can help her faster and better than the traditional psychologist conversation. Regards Karine * * * Shirley asks: How can you deal with people who are emotionally abusive, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Hello David and others, I have been convinced how important using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication are. I do have a question about living with a person who is emotionally abusive. He uses his criticisms of others to manipulate and control them. How do you accept the criticism of such a person who is taking advantage of you accepting the criticism. My soul wants to rebel against these criticisms and against the person who is trying to manipulate me. How do you navigate such a relationship when the abuser will never acknowledge that they are abusing others. He lives in a fantasy world of excuse making and blaming others. Also, how do I acknowledge my weakness and allow the “death” of my ego to happen? Thanks for your consideration and help. Shirley We reviewed this problem and describe how we treat relationship conflicts using TEAM-CBT. This involves giving up blame and examining your own role in the problem. You will discover--and this might be disturbing, or enlightening, or both--that you are contributing in a BIG way to the very problem you're complaining about. You can review Shirley's partially completed Relationship Journal if you link here. * * * Guy asks: Are there any Five Secrets practice groups I could join? David, Please consider asking one of your skilled therapists to create a Five Secrets of Effective Communication "Practice Group." Possibly the group could be run weekly (virtually) and it would be an opportunity to repeatedly practice each of the secrets. I practice on my own, but I know that learning is often strongest when working with others. Guy Marshall David's Response Hi Guy, Ana Teresa Silva has a five secrets zoom practice group. Check with her! They are just getting started. ateresasilva6@gmail.com We have an exciting podcast scheduled the next time Matt visits. We will address the many controversies around exposure therapy, and will be joined by a patient Matt recently treated with the fear of leaches! We will also address some of the hundreds of questions submitted by the more than 6,000 fans who registered for my free 90-minute presentation on rapid Recovery from Anxiety which was sponsored by PESI. All the best, Rhonda, Matt, and David (plus Rutherford) If you would like to contact Dr. May, you can reach him at: www.MatthewMayMD.com. Matt added that people interested in treatment can schedule a free 15-minute phone call there, my schedule permitting. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, but due to Covid-19 restrictions is working mostly via Zoom, and can be reached at rhonda@feelinggreattherapycenter.com. She is a Level 4 Certified TEAM-CBT therapist and trainer and specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, and relationship problems. Check out her new website: www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com.
#253: Sadness as Celebration, Part 2 In today's podcast, Rhonda and David present Part 2 of their work with a young woman named Rose who has been struggling with profound feelings of grief since learning of a discouraging update on her father's struggles with multiple forms of cancer. A = Assessment of Resistance At the end of the moving and tearful empathy phase, Rhonda asked Rose if she felt ready to do some work, or needed more time to talk and share her thoughts and feelings. She said she was ready to do some work, and described her goals for the session: I know I cannot change the facts, and I would not want to eliminate the grieving, but I would like to dial down the intensity of some of my emotions, particularly when I'm triggered. Next, we did some Positive Reframing to highlight what was positive about Rose's feelings. You can click here review the list of positives that we generated. Rose's Positive Reframing Table* Thought or Feeling List your negative thoughts or feelings, one by one, in this column. Advantages and Core Values--Ask yourself What are some advantages of this thought or feeling? How might it help, protect, or benefit me? What does this negative thought or feeling show about me that is positive and awesome? How does it reflect my core values? Sadness, depression Shows my deep love for my dad and honors the contribution and impact he's made in my life Shows the strength of our relationship Anxiety The anxiety is warranted in this situation, shows that I'm being realistic with the situation It shows my love for my dad, being worried is a way of showing care and concern It shows that I don't want him to suffer It motivates me to connect with him and to make every moment count It makes me vigilant so I explore every possible treatment option It motivates us to think about moving to be closer to him It has motivated us to schedule another visit again in July Guilt Shows my connection to our family Drives us to visit as much as possible Shows that I don't want to live with regret Feeling defective Shows that I'm honest about my flaws Shows I feel that I'm not doing a good job supporting others, so it means I have high standards in my relationships Shows that I'm vulnerable Lonely Shows my love for my dad and the important role he plays in my children's life Shows how strongly that I value relationships Motivates me Hopelessness Shows I am being realistic Prevents me from getting my hopes up too high Prepares me for the inevitable Makes me value and make each moment count Might decide to discontinue the chemo if it causes problems and isn't helpful Makes me more vigilant Frustration Shows I haven't given up or thrown in the towel Anger I will fight and contest this! Now you can review Rose's Emotions table at the end of Positive Reframing, showing her goals for each emotion when we used the Magic Dial. The idea is to dial each feeling down to a lower level that would reduce your suffering, while still allowing you to preserve all the awesome things about you! Emotions % Now % Goal % After Emotions % Now % Goal % After Sad, depressed, down, unhappy 100 50-60 Lonely, alone 80 10 Anxious, worried, frightened 100 30 Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing 90 10 Guilty 80 15 Defeated 70 20 Defective 70 10 Angry 80 25 As you can see, she wanted to dial all of her feelings down to low levels, with the exception of her sadness, which was an expression of her love for her dad. M = Methods We used Explain the Distortions, the Double Standard Technique, and the Externalization of Voices, including the CAT (Counter-Attack Technique). Here's how Rose challenged Negative Thought #1. 1. He's going to die; we're running out of time. 100 50 No distortions We're all going to die, but I can be present on those moments when we are together. 100 David discussed healthy vs unhealthy grief, and shared some stories of love and loss. He also talked about the concept of sadness as celebration. In this case, a celebration of Rose's love for her Dad. The impending loss, of course, is tragic, but the wonderful father daughter relationship is beautiful and perhaps somewhat scarce, as so many people have not had such a beautiful relationship with their parents. At the end, Rose said the session was “incredible and special” You can take a look at her end of session scores on the Daily Mood Log (link). After the session, Rose sent the following email: Hello David and Rhonda, Thank you so much for that amazing session today. I am feeling so much more contentment and gratitude after talking with you both. I even feel lighter and more hopeful. The key insight for me was realizing how special and precious this relationship is that I have, and rather than focusing on what I won't have. It sounds like a cliché, but it is true for me and seems to have freed up a weight. I will definitely do my homework, and will can send you the completed DML after listening to the session as that may help. And as for sharing with my dad, I'm going to be calling him to tell him what a wonderful session I had and that when it is published he can listen to it so as to have and share this beautiful experience. Thank you so much once again! Rose Markotic Thank you for listening today! Rhonda, Rose, and David
Podcast 248 Ask David and Rhonda! In today's podcast, Rhonda and David answer some fascinating questions submitted by listeners like you! We both thank you for your interest in our show, and for your kind comments and terrific questions! The Questions Kati asks: I notice that in your therapy sessions, the negative feelings of most of your patients are reduced all the way to 0%, and many become euphoric. I was wondering whether this somewhat contradicts the idea that our negative feelings are useful to us in some way? Kati also asks: Do you believe that empathy can be ‘taught'? Yiftah asks: How could one dangle the carrot effectively and responsibly when offering a cognitive exposure exercise? Yiftah also asks: From your experience can you give examples of cases in which cognitive exposure may not be as safe or as effective? Esther asks: You say there is no convincing or consistent evidence to support most psychodynamic claims about the causes of things. What you said resonates, but aren't you also just making claims? I have a psychodynamic supervisor, and am struggling to choose between empirically validated treatments and traditional psychodynamic approaches. Sean asks: Burns, what can you do when you are using the disarming technique and the person keeps interrupting you? Ben asks: Since exercise improves the mood of some people who are feeling down, doesn't this prove that physiologic changes can improve mood, as opposed to changing negative thoughts? The Answers Note: The answers below were based on David's email exchanges with the people who asked the questions and were created before today's podcast. Therefore, the podcast may contain new and different information from these show notes. Hopefully, both the show and the notes will be helpful to you. Rhonda and David Kati asks I notice that in your live therapy sessions, the negative feelings of most of your patients are reduced all the way to 0%, and many become euphoric. I was wondering whether this somewhat contradicts the idea that our negative feelings are useful to us in some way. David responds Hi Kati, thank you for the kind comments! It is great to get negative feelings to zero and experience enlightenment and joy. However, no one can be happy all the time, so you will have plenty of opportunities to "learn" from negative feelings again. In addition, there is a difference between healthy and unhealthy negative feelings. Healthy sadness is not the same as clinical depression, healthy fear is not the same as a phobia or panic attack, healthy and unhealthy anger are quite different, and so forth. There will bumps in the road of life for all of us at times. * * * Kati also asks Do you believe empathy can be “taught?” As a mum (of a 15 and a 10 year old girls) and a (HS) teacher I notice some people seem to have it more ‘innately' than others but would also love to think it is an aspect that can be intentionally developed in others in some way. If you think like me, I would love to hear your thoughts on how that could be done (i.e. what practices or strategies would be most helpful to use with young people in particular). I am still in awe that we can have a sort of conversation with such a brilliant and creative mind and I humbly hope you can address these two questions either in one of your podcasts or by responding to this message. In admiration, Kati David responds Thanks again, Kati, With regard to empathy, it is something that can be learned, but it takes commitment and practice. A good first step is the book I wrote on this topic called Feeling Good together. In addition, there is, as you say, an "aptitude" that people have for this or any skill, with a tremendous variability in the population. But regardless of your natural aptitude or lack of it, you can learn and grow tremendously. I started out with very poor listening skills. You can also search for Five Secrets of Effective Communication on the website, using the search function, and you'll find lots of podcasts teaching these skills. david * * * Yiftah asks How could one dangle the carrot effectively and responsibly when offering a cognitive exposure exercise? Dear Dr. Burns, I love your podcast and books. They have completely changed my practice and had helped my personally. In particular it was great to hear you working with Dr. Levitt with cognitive exposure, and your discussion about it. I have two questions regarding cognitive exposure with PTSD (for the podcast. First, how could one dangle the carrot effectively and responsibly when offering a cognitive exposure exercise? David responds Hi Yiftah, I try to deal with the Outcome and Process Resistance issues prior to agreeing to help any patient with anxiety. I might say something like this: “Jim, I'd really love to help you with your fears of X (whatever it is), and I'm pretty convinced that if we work together, you can make some great progress in overcoming your fears. I have more than 30 great tools to help you overcome anxiety, and you're probably going to love all of them except for one, exposure. Confronting your fears is just one tool among many, but is a vitally important part of the process, and cure is usually impossible without exposure. “For example, I may ask you to do is (I explain the type of exposure we might use.) I know that will be terrifying, and it needs to be terrifying to be effective. I'll be with you every step of the way, of course. But I need to know if you'd be willing to do that type of thing if I agree to work with you. “I know you've told me that you've had many therapists in the past who did not use exposure, and that might be why their treatments were not as effective as you'd hoped. And if you absolutely don't want to use exposure, I would totally understand and support you, but sadly could not agree to treat your fear of X.” * * * Yiftah also asks From your experience can you give examples of cases in which cognitive exposure may not be as safe or as effective? You have a lot of experience with successful exposure treatments, but I had never worked with PTSD. And I hear some "PTSD experts" say that cognitive exposure is a dangerous process that can backfire. And according to papers I've read it doesn't always help. In other words, assuming that one had worked correctly with the Empathy and Assessment of resistance phases: how safe and how effective is prolonged cognitive exposure with severe PTSD? From your experience can you give examples of cases in which cognitive exposure may not be as safe or as effective? I mean are there some conditions or distorted thoughts that categorically need to be dealt with successfully before going for exposure? For example, would there be any special considerations when working with patients with thoughts connected to shame, self-blame and hopelessness, as well as habits and addictions, or relationship issues? Thank you Yiftah David responds Thanks again! Let's assume that you are treating a veteran who is paranoid and living alone in the woods, who tells you that he is afraid of “losing it” and blowing people away with his automatic rifle. I would not want to have him fantasize blowing people away in order to overcome his fear, especially if he is prone to violence and has poor impulse control, and is psychotic. This could conceivably trigger him to do something violent, and I'd have a hard time explain my therapy methods to the police after he kills many people in the local mall. At the same time, the vast majority of anxious people who are afraid of doing something horrible or violent have OCD, and are totally safe. So, it takes judgment. Powerful techniques require therapists with exceptional skills, training, and thoughtfulness. It ALWAYS pays to be thoughtful and cautious! And this has nothing to do with cognitive exposure per se, but all of the > 100 techniques that I use. They can all hurt, including empathy, if not done skillfully, and with compassion. Backfiring occurs when therapists don't do or know how to prepare the patient for the methods you plan to use. Anytime you “throw” techniques at patients, you are asking for trouble. Remember, TEAM is a systematic, step-by-step package that is done as a sequence. Your patient has to give you an “A” on empathy before you can even go on to the Assessment of Resistance. My experience has shown me that most therapists, including the so-called experts, do not know how to get an A grade on empathy, and may not have outstanding empathy skills. Trust is so important in the treatment of anxiety, and always has to come first. Before using any M = Methods, you will need to address the patient's Outcome and Process Resistance, and get some agreement on what you plan to do and how you plan to do it. Should we not use a technique because it doesn't always work? All techniques often fail. TEAM is based on “failing as fast as you can!” If you can't use a technique that sometimes fails, then you can't use ANY technique! Also, I never treat anxiety with one technique. I use a great many techniques drawn from four very different treatment models: the Cognitive Model the Motivational Model the Exposure Model the Hidden Emotion Model I sometimes get tired / annoyed with so-called experts who love to spout off, saying things that to my ear sound like half-truths. But then again, I do the exact same thing! At any rate, neither Jill nor I have ever had a bad outcome with any form of exposure, but we are both pretty careful, and try hard to be compassionate and to prepare the patient. You have to be thoughtful and careful. For example, Shame Attacking Exercises can be life changing, but they require half a brain on the part of the therapist. For example, I wouldn't throw someone with poor interpersonal skills into a potentially awkward or hurtful Shame Attacking Exercise. All powerful techniques have the potential to heal or harm. The same scalpel that a surgeon uses to save a life can also be used by a murderer to slit someone's throat. d * * * Esther asks You say there is no convincing or consistent evidence to support most psychodynamic claims about the causes of things. What you said resonates, but aren't you also just making claims? I have a psychodynamic supervisor, and am struggling to choose between empirically validated treatments and traditional psychodynamic approaches. Hi David, I absolutely love your stuff! I've used some parts of feeling good in my practice as a therapist and in my personal life for some time, but I've recently gotten much more into your teachings and I've been thinking a lot about TEAM-CBT. And thank you for providing all these free resources for the public! In episode 230 (about 22 minutes in) Rhonda asked you about a common psychodynamic type of claim- “a child of alcoholics either become an alcoholic, marries an alcoholic or becomes a therapist of an alcoholic.” You responded by saying “people love those kinds of theories because people want to think they know the causes of things.” Then you went on to disagree, claiming that there isn't much evidence to support these types of claims. At first what you said very much resonated with me, and yet I began to think about it and realized the irony in your response: you had explained people's tendency to come up with such theories with your own cause (“people want to think they know the causes of things”), something which I doubt you've been able to test in a research study (though perhaps I'm wrong!) And yet what you said still resonates with me and highlights the crux of my question: isn't there any value in intuition (without any evidence) in determining the causes of things? For instance, I think your causal explanation here is highly intuitive. (Even though an alternative explanation could have involved something not inherently psychological, like “people err because they think correlation implies causation” or something. This is not just a theoretical question for me. I currently work under a wonderful supervisor who takes a psychodynamic approach to many issues, and I am very suspicious of some his theories, but it seems that he is a great therapist. Further, I think that many people in school and in the early stages of practice (including myself) are conflicted about whether or not they wish to train further in evidence-based approaches or in a psychodynamic type of school. I think this important question is sometimes at the root of the issue. (Although psychodynamic theories are sometimes not at all intuitive.) For a practical example- something I always found intuitive is the role low self-esteem seems to play in people with inflated egos or the role it can play with those who have anger issues (In which the ego or anger serve to “compensate” for the low self-esteem). When I was working with a client who suffered in these two areas, I began by educating him about this notion (which resonated with him) and we began to address his low self-esteem. Later, however, I happened across an article claiming that this intuitive notion is not supported by research. It called into question many of my intuitions when conceptualizing cases and treating my clients. Finally, I just picked up a copy of “Feeling Great” (it's awesome, by the way!) and I noticed you talked about the hidden emotion technique. Once we're on the topic of evidence; do you have any evidence that this particular technique is helpful? Is there research backing such a technique? (I'm particularly suspicious of it given its psychodynamic flavor :) I apologize if you've addressed these questions somewhere already- I've only just begun to avidly read your stuff and listen to your podcast. Thank you so much! Esther David responds Hi Esther, This is an important email and if I can find the time, and may address it in an Ask David. You write: “This is not just a theoretical question for me. I currently work under a wonderful supervisor who takes a psychodynamic approach to many issues, and I am very suspicious of some his theories, but it seems that he is a great therapist.” It's great that he is a great therapist, and it will be fun for you to learn from him. There are two caveats, perhaps. First, therapists' views of changes in the negative feelings of their patients, like depression, are not especially accurate, so his self-report of his effectiveness may not have a lot of credibility. I have measured therapist accuracy in a study at the Stanford Hospital, and found an accuracy of only 3% in detecting changes in depression, even after exhaustive, systematic interviews with patients about how they feel. Second, most therapists have only a placebo effect, although they will strenuously insist it ain't true! And their effectiveness is almost definitely not the result of the specific tools they are using, but other factors. Many outcome studies have been consistent with this type of conclusion. But still, learning from the wisdom of an older therapist can be awesome! With regard to the Hidden Emotion Technique, it IS a kind of modernized psychodynamic technique. I don't think it has been studied, but I no longer keep up with research. I find it exceptionally helpful in myself (I am anxiety prone) and in about 50% or more of anxious patients. And I have found I can engage in really rewarding conversations with psychodynamic therapists when I describe this technique. I enjoy this type of dialogue, challenging our favorite ideas. Have you ever heard of the “confirmation paradox?” My memory is that if theory A predicts observation B, and you see observation B, you may wrongly conclude that theory A is confirmed. For example, the theory that the sun revolves around the earth predicts that the sun will come up in the east in the morning and set in the west in the evening. So, we do see that every day, and we wrongly conclude that we have confirmed our theory that the sun revolves around the earth. Same is true for psychological theories about the causes of depression or whatever. The problem is that your observations also confirm a large number of alternative theories that all would have predicted the same thing. You can disconfirm a causal theory with data based on an experiment or natural observation, but you cannot actually confirm any theory in science. You can only say that your data are consistent with this or that theory, and that you have failed to disprove your theory based on your observations. I tested many theories about the linkages between Self-Defeating Beliefs (SDBs), like Perfectionism, and changes in negative feelings over time in several hundred patients treated at my clinic in Philadelphia. The data was not consistent with causal linkages between SDBs and negative feelings, even though there were strong correlations between them at both time points, and even though changes in SDBs were strongly correlated with changes in SDBs. david PS You might enjoy this psychoanalysis poem by another Esther who is a member of our Tuesday TEAM training group at Stanford. GOODBYE TO ALL THAT: THE JOY OF PRACTICING PSYCHOANALYSIS No more forms, no need for technique No more brain strain week after week, Ditch those methods — fifty, a hundred, A thousand ways I might have blundered. So long agenda, don't mention homework Just perfect that withering shmirk. Surveys, grades, throw them away You know it's sex, whatever they say. Gone for good are your twelve distortions, Out with charts and their crazy proportions. Is that a purse I see before me? Nope! It's your mother's vagina. You think that's a joke? Such progress we are making you must admit Only ten years and we are ready to dip Into that complex where troubles all lie The mom you must marry, the dad who must die. Two hundred sessions a year and each one two hundred Over ten years $400,000! I sundered… WHAT? I was…er… giving thought to your dream (And the cabbage I missed doing TEAM.) How can you say you're worse off than before While standing in front of Enlightenment's door? You say you've awakened to find I'm a nitwit, & at last you're done with all of this horseshit! Goodbye, my patient, there's the door, A pity you are so very sore. But let me say just one thing more — You really are a frightful bore. — Esther Wanning * * * Sean asks Dr. Burns, what can you do when you are using the disarming technique and the person keeps interrupting you? I've recently been practicing the 5 secrets and I am still learning how to apply the techniques. I listened to many podcasts and I'm reading your books/doing the exercises. I'm a complete believer in your method! Thank you! During the disarming, if the person continues to aggressively interrupt and ask pointed questions, how do I continue to stay engaged in the conversation? I repeat the steps. I agree/try and find the truth, paraphrase the comments, along with practicing feeling/thought empathy. The person continues to interrupt, argue, blame, and ask questions to prove their point. Do I just continue to try the secrets? In the moment it seems like it's impossible, but I stay committed. Thanks Sean David responds Hi Sean, I have often said that these abstract questions have very little value. The devil is in the details, the specific example. If you give me an example of what the other person said, and what, exactly, you said next, I will probably, or almost certainly, be able to show you what your errors were, and how you are forcing the person to keep attacking you. However, this can be painful, to suddenly see how you are causing the exact problem you are complaining about. But also freeing. So, the answer, in short, is that you are probably not using the Five Secrets correctly, but you get lots of credit for your efforts, and some feedback may help you. d PS Sadly, I never got a specific example from Sean. That is too bad, because abstract questions and answers never have much, if any, practical value or impact. All the learning is in the specific example, which becomes a mind-blowing learning experience. But, sometimes people don't seem to “get” this message! * * * Ben asks Since exercise improves the mood of some people who are feeling down, doesn't this prove that? Hello David! I am a frequent listener of your podcast, and am currently going through your new book, "Feeling Great". The importance of treating depression at specific moments in time, addressing self-defeating beliefs, and the death of the "self" are all topics that are of particular interest to me. I have a question for you. You make the claim that depression & anxiety always result from distorted thoughts -- that our thoughts always cause our feelings. If that is the case, what do you make of the research that shows that aerobic exercise can be an effective treatment for them? Doesn't that indicate that there could be a physical basis for some cases of anxiety & depression? I have certainly found exercise to be tremendous help for me in keeping my anxiety at bay -- a vigorous session of exercise just seems to "slow down" my mind or reduce the volume of the voice that's always chattering away in the background for hours afterward. Could people be getting more depressed and anxious because they simply don't move as much or as vigorously as our bodies have evolved to? Thank you for your amazing work and the generosity with which you share it. I've recommended your podcast to many people, and will continue to do so! Take care, Ben David responds Hi Ben, Great question. I like your critical thinking! To test this idea, we would, of course, have to measure the positive and negative thoughts of individuals who are, and individuals who are not, helped by exercise. You cannot just assume something either way. I believe that all change in moods, regardless of the treatment intervention, is mediated by a reduction in the distorted thoughts that trigger the depression. This is a testable hypothesis. Many people tell themselves things like, “Oh, I'm exercising now, this will really help me, I'm keeping up with my commitments to my health,” and so forth. I, for one, have never had a mood elevation from exercise. My daughter finds exercise very helpful. I suspect you will find a sharp reduction in negative thinking in individuals who are helped by exercise. We have to be careful about jumping to conclusions about causality. I have a mild case of sciatica, and a medication like Tylenol makes the pain disappear. Does this mean that sciatica is due to a Tylenol deficiency? I did a study with an N of 1. I asked a severely depressed man to fill out a part of a Daily Mood Log every evening. He recorded the situation, then circled and rated his feelings, and then recorded his negative thoughts and how much he believed them. Then he flipped a coin and either jogged for 45 minutes or worked on challenging his distorted thoughts for 45 minutes. In both cases, after 45 minutes he recorded any reductions in his negative thoughts and feelings. The days when he worked with the DML he experienced pronounced reductions in his belief in his negative thoughts and in his negative feelings. The days he jogged, in contrast, there were no reductions in his negative thoughts or feelings. analysis of the data with structural equation modeling confirmed that the change in his negative feelings was caused by the reduction in his belief in his negative thoughts. Just a small pilot study, and could be done on a larger group. However, the researcher would have to have a sophisticated understanding of how the DML works, and how to elicit distorted thoughts from people who are depressed and anxious. david Ben's reply Wow! I didn't expect such a quick and thorough reply! Thank you, David. Love the Tylenol example. Such a powerful way to demonstrate the hazards of assuming causality, and also show me how easy it is to assume causality without even realizing I am doing so. Your study of the severely depressed man was ingenious as well. It gave me some good food for thought about *why* exercise might be so helpful for me -- that I can't assume that it's because I've manipulated my physiology in some way. It could very well be that I end up feeling good because I have pursued a difficult activity that I value, and thus feel as though I have accomplished something. I can see why someone who *doesn't* rely on accomplishments to feel "worthwhile" or doesn't even think of exercise is an accomplishment might not get the same boost. Indeed, there have almost *certainly* been times that I've exercised and felt WORSE afterward, but I'm mentally filtering those instances out. Like when I've gone for a run even though I was supposed to be getting dinner ready, and then the family is frustrated w/ me and hungry! ;-) I don't really get to bask in the glow of Accomplishment(tm) then! Take care, and thanks again! -Ben David responds again Hi Ben, Thanks. I ‘ve always said the thing about exercise raising brain endorphins was just something someone made up, but people wouldn't listen to me for the most part. I pointed that human brain endorphins cannot be measured, so there cannot be any evidence all for this theory. I recently said an article where they blocked brain endorphin receptors in people who got the runner's high. They still got the runner's high, proving brain endorphins could not possibly be involved! People tend to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the evidence. We see this in politics and in religion in a big way, but it is true in all walks of life. david Rhonda and David
"Hello David!" Over 1.3 million views at time of publishing! Over 3,000 comment replies! It's the video that has made our year ALREADY!! In a weary world it has brought a much needed smile to well over a million people and counting! Alison not only have I got the bodyguards. Sorry, I'm going to have to hurry now because I have the helicopter outside waiting to pick me up! - Dad Vincent on his new found fame 😂 Paul and Vincent tell us the very funny back story to the viral sensation. Never mind Jack Whitehall and his old man - THESE TWO need a TV series! [audio mp3="https://media.radiocms.net/uploads/2021/01/09114527/WB-0901-LAUGHING-DAD-AND-SON-PAUL-AND-VINCENT.mp3"][/audio] Dad had to record a 20 sec video over Christmas for my brothers 40th as he lives in Oz, it took over 7 minutes because he couldn’t get past the word “Hello” without cracking up, if you need cheering up or just want a good laugh, watch it.🤣 pic.twitter.com/TxfeFnunIg — Paul McDonnell (@paulmcdonnell88) January 7, 2021 This is just brilliant 😂😂😂 in tears laughing! They were great on your show there too. Much needed laughter 😂😂🤗 — Aisling Greene (@GreeneGill) January 9, 2021
Podcast 222 Ask David December 28, 2020 Ask David featuring five challenging questions. Jay asks: How do you treat individuals with personality disorders using TEAM-CBT? Jeff asks: Can you talk more about the “great death” of the therapist’s “helping” or “rescuing” self? This was really helpful to me! Darkmana asks: Hey David, are there any books about Buddhism you would recommend? I can see you’re a fan of it from Feeling Great! Angela asks: What’s a perfect score on your empathy test? Margaret asks: What can you say to a patient who doesn’t want to push the Magic Button? * * * Jay asks: How do you treat individuals with personality disorders using TEAM-CBT? Dr. Burns Have you considered doing a podcast on using TEAM-CBT or CBT for Borderline, Narcissistic and Histrionic Personality Disorders? The interesting thing is those with personality Disorders seem to blame everyone and everything for their problems but themselves Also, what if anything could individuals do to not get attracted or quickly eject when they encounter these folks. One theory is that folks with abusive or neglectful parents are vulnerable. Because the chaos and drama is familiar. I think many therapists avoid folks with pd no? Particularly patients with Borderline PD. It's interesting in that kids have years of relating to parents with personality disorders. So how would TEAM-CBT help? Just curious what your experience and Rhonda too Jay Rhonda and David talk about how TEAM-CBT developed out of David's treatment of large numbers of individuals with Borderline Personality Disorder, and what some of the treatment strategies are. * * * Jeff asks: Can you talk more about the “great death” of the therapist’s “helping” or “rescuing” self? This was really helpful to me! Hi Dr. Burns, I loved what you've taught on the death of the selves - and recently read the Four Great Deaths of the Therapists Ego in your new book, Feeling Great. One part that I found so helpful was the death of "The Helping, Rescuing Self." I think I've believed that's my purpose. That's why I'm there. I'm there to "help" the client feel better and live a full, rich, meaningful life. That's something I've struggled with - because if I'm not there to help, what am I there for? And if I don't FEEL like I've helped, then I've failed the client. I'd love to hear this concept expanded on. I think many therapists, coaches, etc. would benefit from seeing how they can work with clients without thinking they have to help or rescue them. Thank you, Dr. Burns. P.S. Your new book is a goldmine. Enjoying it immensely. * * * Darkmana asks: Hey David, are there any books about Buddhism you would recommend? I can see you’re a fan of it from Feeling Great? Hi Darkmana, Thank you for your question. I'm sure there are many great books out there, but I have never studied Buddhism or read anything about it. I just sort of make things up! David will tell his Buddhism story when eating in a noodle house with his son Erik. Rhonda has invited the Dalai Lama to appear on a Feeling Good Podcast. It seems like a long shot, but it would be delightful to have the chance to chat with him, as there is so much overlap between Buddhism and TEAM-CBT! I would guess that he likely has a good sense of humor, since humor and laughter can be such great ways of grasping certain ideas and achieving enlightenment. I have heard that the Buddha talked about the “Great Death” of the self. In Feeling Great, I talk about four “great deaths” that correspond to recovery from depression, anxiety, relationship problems, and habits and addictions. I’d love to hear the Dalai Lama’s thoughts about this. There may be large numbers of “Great Deaths,” I suspect. To me, “reincarnation” is something that happens when we are alive, and not something that happens after our bodies die! However, I think most Buddhists might fiercely oppose my thinking in this regard. I think that “literalism” is one of the problems with most organized religions. Stories that are intended to convey wisdom and insight are taken as literally true. * * * Angela asks: What’s a perfect score on your empathy test? Hello David, In the weekly practice group that I host, the question came up today “what does Dr. Burns mean by no less than 20? Is it the first section titled “Therapeutic Empathy” which is 20 points total, or the entire survey which is 20 questions? Warmest blessings, Angela Poch, RPC-C Hi Angela, Thanks, yes that is correct. 20 on the empathy scale is the lowest passing grade. A score of 19 and below indicate some significant failure in the therapeutic relationship / empathy. Since we are hoping for failure, I try to make failure as easy as possible! That’s part of my “anti-perfectionism” philosophy. I encourage the four “great deaths” of the therapist’s ego, and this is the first of the four deaths. * * * Margaret asks: What can you say to a patient who doesn’t want to push the Magic Button? Hi Dr. Burns, I attended your intensive in Atlanta and am working on my level 3 certification. TEAM CBT has transformed my life personally and transformed my practice professionally. I will be forever grateful to your hard work and dedication in developing this approach. My burning question is about the magic button / magic dial. After the positive reframe, when we ask, " With all these awesome things your negative emotions show about you and all the benefits you get from them, why would you want to press this button?" Ninety five percent of the time my clients argue for change and that is great. My problem is when they say, "I guess I wouldn't want to press that button." I feel like I am cheating them by not offering the magic dial. It seems like all or nothing thinking. If you press the magic button, "all" of these positive things will go away. They never get the chance to even learn about the magic dial and then may never get the chance to learn about cognitive distortions and all of the other cool methods you and others have created. My clients always benefit from the positive reframing. How much do they have to argue for change? How critical is this? Maybe I am thinking about this all wrong. I can really use some guidance. Thank You so Much, Margaret McCall I just realized my pun with "Burn"ing question- that was not intentional, lol Hi Margaret, Great question! Will add it to an Ask David. Quick answer: you can agree that it is not a good idea to press the Magic Button, and ask them what their NTs and feelings show about them that is positive and awesome, and also ask them why they might NOT want to push the Magic Button, and then once again paradox them. All you have to do is say “Good thinking. Let’s list all the really GOOD reasons NOT to press that button.” Then you go right into Positive Reframing, followed by the Magic Dial. Also, if they do not want help, which is often the case with relationship problems as well as habits and addictions, you can just ask if them if there is anything they DO want help with! It is not my job to persuade the patient to work on something. It is the patient’s job to persuade me to help him or her! Rhonda and David
Ask David featuring four terrific Should questions, and more questions about “asinine, stupid, narcissistic, self-serving humans! “ Oliver asks: Can a thought be thought as moral or immoral? Vincent asks: I have suffered from depression for about 3 years and say to myself, "I should have gotten better sooner." Isn't this "should" appropriate? Charles says: Your concept of “no self” shot my anxiety way up and made me feel hopeless. . . . It makes me feel worse than before! Michelle asks: How is your requirement that new patients must agree to not make any suicide attempts for the rest of their lives any different to a “suicide contract” which you mention are not effective? Brian asks: I’ve done a few things that made me feel intensely guilty. . . . The knowledge that I didn’t do what I should have done led to a lot of guilt and shame, and eventually depression. Just wondering your thoughts on this Carrel asks: I'm a Democrat in Texas. How can we use disarming to heal the political rifts in our country? Natasha asks: How do I stop the dark thoughts of wishing harm to come to stupid humans who do asinine, narcissistic, self serving, irresponsible things—like driving massive, loud pickup trucks around the neighborhood, honking incessantly as they wave their 20 ft political flags; or bringing the family for a paddle boat ride in the local pond, taking delight in teaching their human offspring to paddle the boat as quickly as they can to chase after the beautiful, innocent geese and ducks trying earnestly and fearfully to swim to safety. and more. Dear Dr. Burns, Can a thought be thought as moral or immoral? In many podcasts and articles, you use "Thou Shalt Not Kill" to demonstrate morally should statement, which is one of the 3 valid should statements in English. I'm still somewhat confused about this concept. To tell you where I get stuck, I come up with three thought experiments. Imagine the following situations in which a should statement may come to mind: Situation 1 Lisa stole some money from a grocery store. When arrested by police, Lisa said with tears, "I shouldn't have stolen money. I feel ashamed for what I have done." In this case, it is obvious that "I shouldn't have stolen money" is a morally should statement, and also a legally should statement, because Lisa did something that violates the law and her moral principle. DAVID’S COMMENT: YES, YOU ARE CORRECT. LISA’S STATEMENT CAN BE CLASSIFIED AS A LEGAL SHOULD AND A MORAL SHOULD. Situation 2 One day, Bob went to Walmart to buy a suit. When he was passing by a shelf, a thought appeared in her mind. "What would happen if I steal this suit? I really want it, but I have very little money." When he came back home, he talked to himself," I shouldn't have felt the urges to steal things. And I shouldn’t have thought about stealing the suit." DAVID’S COMMENT: THESE WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED VALID SHOULD STATEMENTS BY MOST PEOPLE, SINCE WE HAVE FREEDOM OF THOUGHT. HUMAN BEINGS HAVE ALL KINDS OF FANTASIES AND URGES ALL THE TIME—AT LEAST I KNOW THAT I DO! AN URGE ONLY BECOMES IMMORAL OR ILLEGAL WHEN YOU ACT ON IT. HOWEVER, ALTHOUGH I DO NOT THINK THESE ARE VALID SHOULDS, BUT I TRY NOT TO IMPOSE MY VALUES ON OTHERS FOR THE MOST PART. I AM A SHRINK, SO I WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ASKING FOR HELP. FOR EXAMPLE, PEOPLE WITH OCD OFTEN PUNISH THEMSELVES JUST FOR HAVING “FORBIDDEN” THOUGHTS, FEELINGS, OR URGES. THE FIGHT TO CONTROL THEM IS THE ACTUAL CAUSE OF THE OCD. THE SHOULDS TYPICALLY MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE, NOT BETTER. SELF-ACCEPTANCE CAN BE ONE OF MANY HELPFUL TREATMENT STRATEGIES. RELIGION CAN SOMETIMES BE A SOURCE OF OPPRESSIVE SHOULDS, ESPECIALLLY THE MORE FUNDAMENTALIST TYPES OF RELIGION. RIGIDITY MAY BE A PARTIALLY INHERITED TRAIT. FOR EXAMPLE, MANY RELIGIONS AROUND THE WORLD PROMOTE THE IDEA THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS “WRONG” AND THAT PEOPLE “SHOULDN’T” HAVE URGES AND ATTRACTIONS TOWARD PEOPLE OF THE SAME GENDER. THIS IS AN AREA WHERE “SHOULD STATEMENTS” BECOME HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL, AND ARE OFTEN A SOURCE OF HORRIFIC HATRED AND VIOLENCE, SOMETIMES IN THE NAME OF SOME “HIGHER POWER.” Situation 3 Lucy was buying fruits in a grocery store when she found that a man was taking an apple off the shelf and hiding it in his clothe! Obviously, the man was stealing an apple. Lucy was very angry and said, "the man shouldn't steal things from the store. It's not right!" In this case, Lucy didn't steal apples, the man did. But Lucy made a moral judgement about the man's behavior, not Lucy's behavior. Then is this should statement valid for Lucy? DAVID’S THINKING. TO MY WAY OF THINKING, YES THESE ARE VALID LEGAL SHOULDS AND MORAL SHOULDS, SINCE OUR CIVILIZATION (AND ALL CIVILIZATIONS) HAVE DECIDED THAT STEALING IS ILLEGAL, AND IS ALSO CONSIDERED MORALLY WRONG IN MOST RELIGIONS: “THOU SHALT NOT STEAL” IS, I THINK, ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. THE GOAL IS NOT TO CLEAN UP YOUR SPEECH SO THAT YOU NEVER USE SHOULD STATEMENTS THAT DO NOT FIT INTO ONE OF THE THREE VALID CATEGORIES OF LEGAL SHOULDS, MORAL SHOULD, AND LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE SHOULDS. AT LEAST I HAVE NO INTEREST IN THAT. MY GOAL IS TO HELP PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING BECAUSE OF SHOULD STATEMENTS. sincerely Oliver Hi David, What is it with "shoulds" related to recovery from depression? I suffer from depression for about 3 years and say to myself "I should have gotten better sooner." Isn't this "should" appropriate? Because who really wants to suffer through this agony? Greetings from Geneva. Vincent Hi Vincent, "I wish I had gotten better sooner." This is a correct statement without the "should." This simple shift in language is called the Semantic Technique, and it was developed by Dr. Albert Ellis who kind of gave birth to cognitive therapy in the 1950s, along with Dr. Karen Horney about the same time. Instead of using a should, you use “it would be preferable if” or “I wish X was true.” In addition, it isn't actually true that you "should" have gotten better sooner! The universe does not always conform to our expectations. Just because we want something, it doesn't follow that it "should" happen. I'd love to have a new Tesla sports car, at least in fantasy, but it isn't true that I "should" have one. It would be “great” if you had gotten better sooner, that’s absolutely true. “I should have gotten better sooner.” That’s totally false. In addition, although one might think that no one would "want" depression, my research and new clinical work indicate that resistance is nearly always the key to recovery. In other words, people do cling to depression, anxiety, troubled relationships, and habits and addictions, but don’t realize why they are resisting change. Once you suddenly see why you are resisting, your resistance paradoxically disappears, and recovery is then just a stone’s throw away. You can learn more about this in my new book, Feeling Great, available now on Amazon. Thanks! PS let me know if you like the new book, and if you find it helpful! All the best, David A new comment on the post "108: Do You Have a "Self?"" is waiting for your approval Author: Charles Dr. Burns, First off I want to say thank you. Your work has been helping me through my anxiety. However, I really struggled with this podcast. The concept of no self shot my anxiety way up and made me feel hopeless. It made me feel almost as if I was not real or that there is nothing worth striving for. I love helping people. But I feel like I don’t have a purpose if I don’t have a self. It makes me feel worse than before. David’s answer. Hi Charles, The “great death” of the self is a challenging concept, and while it is incredibly liberating, lots of people—most, in fact—don’t “get it.” Some get angry. Some struggle with trying to understand what this could possibly mean. And some find the concept very threatening. That’s why I deleted the chapter from my book. In fact, a couple extremely brilliant and interested colleagues totally couldn’t grasp it, and felt frustrated by my writing on the concept. sometimes, ideas are so simple and basic that people cannot grasp them. The Buddha ran into this problem 2500 years ago. People thought he was fantastic, but almost none of his followers experienced the enlightenment he was so excited to teach them. The 20th century philosopher, Ludwig Wittgenstein, ran into the same problem. He solve all the problems of philosophy, but when he was alive, it was rumored that only seven people in the world, including one of his favorite students, Norman Malcolm, could grasp what he was saying. He went in and out of intense depression and loneliness during his life, in part because of his frustration with trying to teach the obvious. In my book, Feeling Great, I teach that there are actually four “Great Deaths” for the patient, corresponding to recovery from depression, anxiety disorders, relationship conflicts, and habits and addictions. There are also four “Great Deaths” for TEAM therapists. Those sections might be helpful for you! In addition, I focus on the fact that people can never judge your “self,” only something specific that you think or do. Depression cannot exist on the specific level, only up in the clouds of abstraction. For example, Overgeneralization is one of the ten cognitive distortions I described in my first book, Feeling Good. When you Overgeneralize, you see a negative event as a never-ending pattern of defeat, and you might also Overgeneralize from some specific flaw or defect to your “self.” You will read about an attractive and vivacious young professional woman who had the thought, “I’m unloveable,” when her boyfriend of two years broke up with her. This is classic depression thinking, and “self” thinking. She thinks she has a “self” that can be loveable or unloveable. But this is simply not true, and it’s not productive, because she’ll spend all her time ruminating and feeling worthless. An alternative is to focus on why the (overall excellent) relationship didn’t work out, and what she can do to change and learn and grow, so as to make the next relationship even better. You can pick up on the details in the chapter on Overgeneralization if you’re interested! As I point out in Feeling Great, the “death of the self” is not like a funeral, it’ like an incredible celebration of life. Death of your old concept of what you are is liberating, and leads to instant rebirth. My teachings cannot make you happy or unhappy. Your thoughts about what I’m saying create all of your feelings, positive or negative. At any rate, thank you for a most important question that most of my audience will definitely related to. As an aside, I lost my “self” years ago, and what a relief that was. Sadly, it comes back to life from time to time, and then I struggle again, until I realize what’s happening. One day, what I’m saying may make sense! In the meantime, please accept my apologies concerning the “self!” If it gives you comfort to believe you have a “self,” no problem. But the “self” is just a concept, and not a “thing” that could exist or not exist. When you lose your precious and protected “self,” you lose nothing, because there was never anything there in the first place! But while you lose nothing, you do inherit the earth, as nearly all great religious leaders—Buddha, Jesus, and others—have taught us. David Hi Dr. Burns, I’ve just listened to your podcast episode on suicide and found it really interesting and useful but I have a few questions. Firstly, how is your requirement that the patient agree to not make any suicide attempts for the rest of their life any different to a ‘suicide contract’ which you mention are not effective? Also, you talk about doing this assessment at the intake and making non-attempts a condition of therapy. If the patient/client agrees to this, why then do you continue to monitor suicidal thoughts in each session in the BMS? Presumably because the agreement is no guarantee of cessation of thoughts. Surely if you’ve told them it’s a condition of therapy with you to not make any attempts then they’d be likely to not tell you about them even if they occurred, and don’t see how setting the initial ground rule resolves the problem. And lastly, when suicidal thoughts, urges, or fantasies do come again in the BMS how do you handle it then? Do you tell them you’ll end therapy, say “but you promised”? Looking forward to your reply. Thanks, Michelle. Hi Michelle, I have scheduled your email for an upcoming ask david episode, and will use your first name unless you prefer that i use some other name. Here is a brief reply. Most patients with borderline personality disorder will become enraged by the gentle ultimatum at the initial evaluation, and if they decide this is not the type of therapy they want, so be it. The techniques I use will not be effective with patients who continue to threaten suicide. TEAM therapy requires TEAM work. Most, nearly all, patients will "get it" and will decide to continue with the therapy. They can have suicidal thoughts and urges, and we can work on them together in therapy. However, to my way of thinking, it is important that they therapist and patient be protected, in a safe environment. If the patient starts threatening to make a suicide attempt, then they will need another form of more intensive treatment like hospitalization, day care, or intensive outpatient treatment. These are options I cannot personally provide for them. I monitor suicidal urges before and after each session with every patient with no exceptions to protect the patient and to protect myself as well. Thanks! PS the suicide contract is an agreement not to attempt suicide "while we are working together." This is very weak, as the patient can suddenly decide he or she is dropping out of therapy and making a suicide attempt. And this often happens. My contract is more demanding, and intentionally so. Patients must also agree to do psychotherapy homework, too. Some patients want to make the therapist a hostage with suicide threats, which can and so work as a form of manipulation and hostility. Then the therapist is in an almost constant state of agitation, anxiety, and frustration. If I allow a patient to make my life miserable, how can I teach that patient how to be happy? We are all ONE—we go up and down together. If I allow you to make my life miserable, then I am allowing you to make your own life miserable, too. David Hello David, Thank you so much for everything you do. I’ve listened to all of your podcasts, and read most of your books, and am very grateful for the changes you, Rhonda, Fabrice and the rest of the team have made to my life. I’ve just listened to this episode, and there’s one thing I’m struggling with, which is the concept of the moral should. I’ve done a few things that made me intensely guilty – one in particular was not standing by and supporting a friend who needed people when he was going through a particularly hard time. He was angry and disappointed with me, and, in hindsight, rightly so. He has since forgiven me but I still struggle with it. I feel that supporting him was a moral should. The knowledge that I didn’t do what I should have done led to a lot of guilt and shame, and eventually depression. You say that a moral should is valid; so therefore, I feel that my negative thoughts on this are not misguided but valid – I did something morally wrong and deserved to feel bad for it. Just wondering your thoughts on this. Thanks again, and keep up the good work! Hi Brian, thanks! Would love to include this on an Ask David, using just your first name, or even a fake name if you prefer. A quick response might be to ask how many minutes per day would you like to dedicate to feeling guilty? And for how many days, months, or years? In your spiritual or religious beliefs, is a person supposed to feel intensely guilty forever? Most of us have done things we are ashamed of, or feel guilty about. How much guilt and shame would you recommend for me, for example? And what is the goal of the guilt and shame? And how guilty would you recommend I feel, between 0% and 100%? That's one approach. Another approach would be A = Assessment of Resistance, listing what the guilt shows about you that's positive and awesome, and then asking yourself why in the world you'd want to let go of the guilt, given all the many real positives. Then you might validly decide to “dial it down” to some more acceptable level. For example, if you now feel 90% guilty, perhaps 15% or 20% would be enough. In addition, you could also decide how many minutes of guilt you would recommend. If you now feel guilty about eight hours a day, would 10 minutes be enough? If so, you could schedule your “guilt periods” ahead of time, and then really work hard at feeling guilty during those ten minutes. Then, when you’re done with your “guilt work,” you can return to joyous and loving living! Also, instead of one ten minute daily guilt binge, you could schedule, for example, three guilt binges, each three minutes long, in the morning, at lunch time, and in the evening, like three pills the doctor prescribed! David In reply to Dr. Burns. Hi Dr Burns, Thanks so much for your quick response! I really appreciate your advice; I will dedicate a bit of time today to approaching it the way you say. And also, I’d be delighted if you included it on a podcast! You can use my first name by all means. Thanks again! Brian Comment from Carrel I'm a Democrat in Texas. How can we use disarming to heal the political rifts in our country? How does one find agreement across that ever-widening divide? Carrel David’s reply Hi Carrel, It’s really tough, for sure! Have you listened to my podcast on this topic? There is a search function on my website. If you type in “political divide,” this podcast will pop right up: “127: How Can We Communicate with Loved Ones on the Opposite Side of the Political Divide?” Let me know what you think! David David emphasizes the value of the search function. Often you can find your questions have already been addressed. In addition, the many podcasts on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication could be invaluable (links), and the emphasis would be on using the Disarming Technique to find some truth in what the other person is proclaiming and arguing for. But first, you have a decision to make, and this is always based on ONE person you may want to interact with. First, ask yourself if you do actually want a better relationship with person X, Y, or Z. There is no rule that says we have to get along better with everyone. I think that Joe Biden is doing a pretty good job of promoting unity, and not diverseness in our country. Hopefully, the forces of love and unity will win out over the forces of hatred and war, but it’s not at all clear what direction our country is heading for. And we’re seeing now that at times the tensions are become so intense, and the hatred so strong, that violence is once again on the increase. In the next Ask David we'll have a really cool session devoted to the intense anger that many of us feel when confronted by human behavior that strikes us as narcissistic, vicious, self-serving, and aggressive. This topic should appeal to lots of people! And we have a wonderful question from a woman who's feeling pretty darn enraged! David and Rhonda
Ask David What do you do when someone won’t stop asking questions? Hello David, It’s been a while since I’ve emailed you, but that’s because I’ve been doing really well thanks to you! I started a new job 3-1/2 months ago, & this woman seemed to take to me right from the start. It was nice at first having someone to talk to etc, but it has quickly turned bad. She sits in the cubicle right next to me. All day long she talks to me asking me questions. What did I do after work? Who was I with? How long was I gone? What did my husband do? And on & on. It feels like she’s interrogating me because the questions never stop. I’m trying to get more vague with my answers hoping if will deter the conversation, but no luck. It really becomes distracting at times & then other times it just feels like she’s being nosy & freaks me out. I just want her to leave me alone! I think this would be a good opportunity to use the 5 secrets of effective communication, but I’m struggling. Could you help? Thank you, Brittany Hi Brittany, Will send to Rhonda for an Ask David. But a simple approach would be to tell her that you admire her and appreciate her interest, but that you sometimes find the questions distracting from doing your work. Perhaps you could sit down with her for lunch or something, and then use your five secrets skills. Using the relationship journal, you could write down one thing she said to you, and exactly what you said next. Then we can see exactly what you are doing that is fueling the problem! I've attached one, and you could send it to us after you have completed Steps 1 and 2. David Thank you for the reply! It really made my day. I attached the relationship journal. It was actually more helpful than I thought it would be for this situation. Once I was able to think of a good example, I realized that maybe my lack of inquiry or showing interest in her is causing her to ask me all these questions. Although if I ask her more about herself, I don't know if it would result in her talking even more? Hard to say. Thanks for your help, and I appreciate your thoughts on my relationship journal. -Brittany Hello, Wanted to give you an update on how it went using the five secrets. First thing Monday morning my coworker started right up with the questions. I used the five secrets & said something similar to what I wrote to you. She apologized for bothering me, & things have been great all week! She actually brought in headphones & has been listening to music now. And there’s no tension or animosity between us which was my fear initially. We still chat here & there & are friendly. Thanks again! -Brittany How can a pastoral counselor get training in TEAM-CBT? Dear Doctor David, I am a pastor from South Africa, married to an Australian, living in Dubai :) I was struggling with mild depression & came across your book "feeling good" and read it & applied all your techniques & it has been life-changing - THANK YOU! What surprised me most was the simplicity and effectiveness of the exercises. I believe that much of what you teach is life skills everyone should have! I wish I was taught these things when I was younger! Over the years I have helped people, from all walks of life - inmates, students, business people, etc., but primarily from a spiritual perspective. I believe I can be more effective and help so many more out there if I learn how to apply your exercises to others. I would love to train in TEAM and learn how to apply these techniques with the people I minister to, but I am not a psychologist or certified as per your requirements. I realize practice and critical feedback is paramount in order to get really good in TEAM. Please advise me on an alternative route. Any help with this regard would be highly appreciated! Thanking you in advance. Yours sincerely, Gareth Noble Hi Pastor Noble, Sure there is a certification program at the Feeling Good Institute. I believe pastoral counselors would be very welcome. They offer many online introductory classes in TEAM-CBT. Check our my free weekly Feeling Good Podcasts, too. I will include your question, with your permission, on an Ask David Podcast. I also offer a free depression class on my website, and about to post an anxiety class too, also free. There are tons of resources, almost all free, on my website, www.feelinggood.com. You can check out my website page from time to time for online workshops. Dr. Angela Krumm angela@feelinggoodinstitute.com is head of the certification program at FGI, which is www.feelinggoodinstitute.com. Angela and I are both PKs (Pastor’s kids)! All the best, David Is love an adult human need? Rhonda said that people in the TEAM certification listserve thought they heard David say that love is not an adult human need. Is this true? David comments on hearing Dr. Beck say that decades ago, in one of Dr. Beck’s weekly training groups at U. Penn, and what he (David) discovered. What’s the best training program to learn TEAM-CBT? David and Rhonda, I hope this note finds you well. I'm writing for a few reasons. The first is to thank you for your podcast and related resources. I found your podcast and started listening at the beginning of COVID-19 (mid-March) because I was feeling acute anxiety. The T.E.A.M. approach and your teaching are such an amazing gifts. The positive reframing in particular is truly life changing and revolutionary for me. Considering what my negative thoughts show about me that's positive and awesome and then finding the cognitive distortions has provided me such relief. I have been so excited about T.E.A.M. therapy that I often discuss it with my husband, friends, and family. I really loved David's comment in the most recent podcast that good therapy isn't evangelizing; rather it's letting the patient define problems and goals within his/her own values. I also liked your comment that doing therapy well is like an artform or a dance- that's such a beautiful sentiment, and I've been able to see the conversational "dances" you perform in the amazing, transformative, empathic live therapy sessions with Michael, Rhonda, Sarah, and others. These sessions have often brought tears to my eyes. This brings me to my second reason for writing. Listening to the podcast has been transformative for me in another way- it's made me seriously consider becoming a therapist myself. I have considered this possibility over the years, but now that I'm familiar with the T.E.A.M therapy approach and can see how helpful it is, I'm excited to explore this path more. I have a B.A. in psychology so I would need additional education- do you have suggestions for masters programs that you think would provide good alignment with the T.E.A.M. approach? I live in Charlottesville, Virginia and have two young children, so a local or online program may be the best bet for me. Thanks in advance for any ideas you may have. All the best to you, Molly Hurt Thanks, Molly. We can read your wonderful email on an Ask David if that is okay with you, but here is the quick answer. In graduate school, you don’t typically learn much that is useful. It is more getting a license to practice, then you learn from mentors, workshops, etc. The FeelingGoodInstitute.com has training and certification programs, including 12 week beginner classes in TEAM that are excellent. The whole area of coaching is emerging now too, and the certification is rather informal. If you get a degree like a masters degree in social work online, and then get licensed to do therapy, that is one approach, but there are many ways to get certified—counselor, psy d degree, marriage and family therapy, and so forth. So in short, I would, personally, find some way—the easiest way—to get certified so you can legally do therapy. But concentrate on learning TEAM as the tool to use. In California, as an aside, anyone can call themselves a “psychotherapist,” but you need the degree and license to call yourself a “psychologist.” Good luck, and thanks again! david Why are should statements considered distortions? Thanks for your quick and helpful reply. It's useful to have a better sense for how to prioritize my time and training. I'm excited to continue to explore T.E.A.M. therapy! And you are welcome to read my email on the podcast, thanks for asking. If I may, one other question for you: how do you recommend someone defeat "should" statements when his/her behaviors aren't healthy or beneficial? For example, "I should not overeat when anxious" or "I should not procrastinate" or "I should not be impatient with my daughter." I understand that saying "should" in these cases adds pressure and can lead to shame, but I don't see the distortion in these statements. In other words, these statements may not be helpful to a patient, but how are they not 100% true? I would appreciate any additional guidance you can offer on what I find to be the most difficult cognitive distortion! Thanks again to both of you for generously sharing your loving and kind approach to helping people deal with their problems and feel better. The impact you're having is profound. I love listening to you empathize with patients- it makes me strive for building an even more loving connection with my husband and daughters, as well as others in my life. Best, Molly Hi Molly, You may want to listen to podcast #205 pm Should Statements. You can also find a lot in my books, like Feeling Good, which you may have already read. There is also a chapter on how to crush should statements in my new book, Feeling Great, which will be released on September 15, 2020. Shoulds are distortions because they are not valid. It is not true that you “should not overeat when anxious.” You SHOULD overeat when anxious because it is very appealing, tasty, and makes you feel better. A correct statement would be, “It would be preferable if I did not overeat when anxious.” This statement removes the shame and pressure, while honoring your goal. There are three correct uses of should: the moral should (thou shalt not kill), the legal should (you should not drive 90 miles an hour because you’ll get a ticket) and the laws of the universe should: this pen should fall to the floor if I drop it because of the force of gravity. But overeating when anxious is not immoral or illegal, and it does not violate the laws of the universe. So it is not a valid use of the word. There is a podcast on this, I think, and you can search for it on my website use the search function. Rhonda and David
Today, Rhonda and David discuss seven great questions submitted by podcast fans like you! Are depression and anxiety states of self-hypnosis? How do you deal with somatic symptoms in TEAM? Should we forgive Hitler and Stalin? What if a patient feels stuck and unable to identify emotions? Do you still really believe that depression and anxiety, regardless how severe, can be treated even without the use of prescription drugs? Do you have to work on your negative thoughts the moment they appear? What role, from your years of practice, does spirituality have in the psychotherapy? Are depression and anxiety states of self-hypnosis? Hi David, I have two questions after listening to Corona Cast 7: “My Struggle with Covid-19! Is it REALLY True that only Our Thoughts Can Upset Us?” I was struck by thinking of anxiety as the result of hypnotizing ourselves into believing our fears. Can depression by thought of in a similar way, except that we hypnotize ourselves into believing our distorted thoughts about ourselves? How do you deal with somatic symptoms in TEAM? Can you do an episode about how to deal with unpleasant somatic situations, as Michael was experiencing during the recording, that suggest there might be some psychological distress but don't seem to have thoughts associated with them? Thanks! Hi Derek, Another great couple of questions, thanks! Will add these to the next Ask David podcast, but the short story is yes, for sure—both depression and anxiety can be thought of as states of self-hypnosis, or trances, because you believe the messages you give yourself, (eg your negative thoughts) that are not true. I think one could add other positive and negative emotions to the list as well, including anger--believing the other person really IS wrong, bad, inferior, and so forth--as well as mania and narcissism, telling yourself that you really ARE a superior person, etc. This is a hugely important topic, and "emotional reasoning" fuels these trances: I FEEL worthless / inferior, so I must BE worthless / inferior, and so forth. With regard to your second question, you might want to listen to yesterday’s live session with Sarah, (Podcast 193, https://feelinggood.com/category/dr-davids-blogs/feeling-good-podcast/) since it focuses on intense somatic sensations generated by emotions, and you can actually hear the exact moment of recovery, when the physical sensations disappeared. David Should we forgive Hitler and Stalin? Hi Dr. Burns, Do you honestly think what Hitler and Stalin did should be forgiven? Albert Ellis said one should. I disagree! Tom Hi Tom, I only help people with problems they are asking for help with. I am not an evangelist or moral authority! David What if a patient feels stuck and unable to identify emotions? A new comment on the post "Uncovering Self-Defeating Beliefs (SDBs)--For Therapists (and Interested Patients) Only!"/ Hi Dr. Burns, Awesome blog post! Your accessible and kind demeanor shine through clearly. What if a client feels stuck and unable to identify emotions? Holly Do you still really believe that depression and anxiety, regardless how severe can be treated even without the use of prescription drugs? Hi Doctor Burns, My name is Jasmine, and I just started going back to therapy about a year ago. I have really improved, and both my mom AND my therapist recommended you HIGHLY. I’m a millennial and I’m just happy you are still alive! I also wanted to ask, do you still really believe even today that depression and anxiety, regardless how severe can treated even without the use of prescription drugs? I am asking because I just bought about three of your books and want to make sure that your confidence in these theories has not wavered. Sometimes I feel like a lost cause because this is the first time in my life that I am truly dealing with and facing my own problems instead of turning the other cheek. Also, how are you doing, sir? Jasmine Hi Jasmine, Doing great, thanks! The new techniques have added even more power to cognitive therapy. Check out my free Feeling Good Podcasts, free depression class, and more on my website, www.feelinggood.com. All the best, David PS My latest book, Feeling Great, can be pre-ordered on Amazon and will be released in Sept. Check our the link below. Do you have to work on your negative thoughts the moment they appear? Hello David, My name is Shivam, I wanted to ask you a question regarding the double column technique for disputing your thoughts. Do we have to work on that moment(upsetting) immediately as it happens or we can work on it later when we get free time? How often should we do it? Its very effective but consumes a lot of time as I keep writing on and on. Any suggestions? I really appreciate that you reply me back. Thanks for everything. love Shivam. What role, from your years of practice, does spirituality have in the psychotherapy? From: Jerry Souta Subject: spirituality in psychotherapy David: Your seminar today (Psychotherapy Leading Voices) was awesome! What role, from your years of practice, does spirituality have in the psychotherapy? Is there a correlation between spirituality and between feeling good/feeling great? Thank you for time taken in response to my in questions! Blessings! Jerry Souta, Jr. (MSW/LCSW/MDIV) Thanks, Jerry. I will answer this on an Ask David, we will be recording it soon. Your question will be featured on a Feeling Good podcast. The short answer is yes. Deep and rapid change nearly always involves a spiritual dimension, for example, one of the four “Great Deaths” of the self. There’s a whole section on this in my new book, Feeling Great.
in today’s podcast, Rhonda and David address eight fascinating questions submitted by fans like you: What’s the difference between David’s Therapist Toolkit, his eBook (Tools, Not Schools, of Therapy), and the EASY Diagnostic system? Is there a dark side to human nature? Is being “forceful” or confronting patients ever important in therapy? What’s the 5-session schizophrenia cure? How do you suddenly switch into “Sitting with Open Hands” during a session? Questions about OCD Questions about racism What if there are more advantages than disadvantages in perfectionism? What’s the difference between the Toolkit, the eBook, and the EASY Diagnostic system? I am a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) and I am interested in either the Toolkit or the EASY diagnostic tool. It looks like the Toolkit includes quite a few questionnaires so I am wondering if I would need both. I would love to have a comprehensive checklist to give to clients during their initial assessment so I originally looked into the EASY Diagnostic tool. I’m just looking for a little guidance on which one would be the most helpful and if I would actually need both. Thanks so much! Cindy What do you think about the idea that there’s a dark side to human nature? Are humans inherently good, as so many mental health professionals seem to believe? It could be entitled, “The Dark Side of Human Nature,” or “Is there REALLY a dark side to human nature?” Jeremy Rhonda and David believe that human beings have positive loving impulses and dark violent impulses as well, and that both are an inherent and basic aspect of human nature. They discuss several aspects, including: The example of cats. They are genetically little serial killers. They love to capture and torture rodents, even if they have had a loving childhood. Many people love violent revenge movies and video games. Many people love killing animals, chopping their heads off, and mounting them on the wall, in much the same way that human serial killers get intense excitement from their killing and torturing, and they also keep trophies. David argues that it is important for therapists to recognize and address the dark side—areas where therapists will typically get in trouble due to blindness / denial / rationalization of negative motives, and excessive idealism. Problematic areas for therapists can include: the suicidal patient the violent patient—David describes a woman who was plotting to kill her husband. disability patients with a hidden agenda of remaining disabled. patients who don’t want to do their therapy homework people, for the most part, don’t get addicted because they’re depressed, anxious, or lonely, but because it’s really awesome to get plastered / high. Many, and perhaps all humans, like to judge others and feel superior to them, and also enjoy exploiting others, but our denial can be intense. People enjoy bullying people. It makes you feel powerful and generates feelings of excitement. We acknowledge that although the dark side to human nature may be strongly influenced by our genes, the environment we grow up in can also have a strong impact on our thoughts, feelings and impulses. Is being “forceful” or confronting patients ever important in therapy? This is another great question submitted by Jeremy Karmel. David gives many examples of times when it is absolutely necessary to be forceful and confrontational in therapy, but this requires a strong therapeutic relationship with the patient and perfect empathy scores and high levels of trust and mutual respect. Therapeutic examples where forcefulness or confrontation may be important include: Exposure techniques in the treatment of anxiety. The patient will nearly always “wimp out” at the last minute, and here is where the therapist needs to push—but most therapists will back off out of misguided “niceness.” Pushing the patient to view his/her own role in a relationship conflict instead of buying into the idea that the patient is the innocent victim of the other person’s “badness.” The new CAT technique in the Externalization of Voices is yet another example where gentle confrontation can often lead to rapid enlightenment. Another example is use of Changing the Focus, suddenly drawing the patient’s attention to “Have you notice what just happened here between us?” This can be helpful when there’s an awkward or adversarial or evasive dynamic going on between therapist and patient. Yet another example is the Gentle Ultimatum in dealing with Process Resistance. In all of these examples, many, and likely most therapists don’t do well, due to “niceness” and fear of conflict. What’s the 5-session schizophrenia cure? Hello David: I recall you saying in one of your trainings given in San Diego a while back that you could "cure Schizophrenia in 5 sessions" using the T.E.A.M. protocol you taught us. Is there a special protocol for this disorder? One of my clients would very much like to know. I hope that this finds you, your family and everyone at the Feeling Good Institute doing well and being healthy. Kind regards, Leslie David explains that he has always insisted that schizophrenia is an organic brain disorder that sadly cannot be cured with drugs or psychotherapy. However, drugs often plan an important role in treatment, and compassionate psychotherapy can also be extremely helpful. The goal is to help the patient develop greater self-esteem and improved relationships with others. He describes the innovative group CBT program he developed at his hospital in Philadelphia which served a large population of homeless individuals as well as individuals suffer from severe schizophrenia. He also points out how easily one can get severely misquoted, and appreciates the chance to set the record straight! How do you suddenly switch into “Sitting with Open Hands” during a session? This is yet another great question from our friend and colleague, Jeremy Karmel. David and Rhonda compare good therapy to dancing, having to often change courses instantly when the patient begins to resist and fight the therapist. Questions about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD): I hope this a place where I can submit questions for "Ask David." Are there manifestations of OCD that have common links or hidden emotions? Do you hear one person's description of their OCD and immediately have an idea of what might cause it? For example: do a majority of contamination OCD sufferers have a common reason for that specific "type" of OCD? Do sufferers of something deeply distressing like pedophile OCD all have feelings of shame that manifest in that OCD, where the "what if" would result in probably the most shame they could ever feel? David and Rhonda discuss the Hidden Emotion Technique which can be invaluable in the treatment of OCD. Questions about racism Hello David and Rhonda, Thanks for your amazing podcasts, I have listened to a lot already. And thanks Rhonda for bringing this important subject to the table. :) What if “Steve” had said that indeed he is racist and can't stand African Americans or South Americans, what would Rhonda answer to that?! It would become difficult for me to keep a friendship-like relationship with someone who is at the extreme opposite on sensitive subjects. I am open to any point of view, I don't need to be disarmed here. :) David, I'm so looking forward to your Feeling Great book!!! Rhonda and David discuss two opposite strategies for dealing with someone with strong racist tendencies. What if there are more advantages than disadvantages of perfectionism when you do a Cost-Benefit Analysis? This is a question from a user who wishes to remain anonymous. Rhonda and David talk about the fact that perfectionism, like all Self-Defeating Beliefs, has many advantages as well as disadvantages. And if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, it’s working for you, and it’s not something the therapist would need to help you with. There’s a difference between neurotic and healthy perfectionism. Many of the great historical figures, like Edison, for example, worked relentlessly and would not settle for failure. And we are all the beneficiaries of that type of genius and intense commitment to the healthy pursuit of excellence! Therapy is all about helping people who ask for help. It’s not about evangelism! David and Rhonda
Taylor tells Dominique about the first case that used criminal profiling & then we get punny with some Florida headlines. **** Stay tuned after the signoff for some bloopers! ****
In today's podcast episode we look at a couple for emails that we have received in the Join Up Dots headquarters over the last few weeks. You see so many people listen to a show like Join Up Dots and actually never ever do anything to make a change in their lives. They get trapped in either making the wrong commitments to change, or even worse never making them in the first place. Well today's show starts with a guy from Australia called Simon. As you can see from his email below, Simon make a commitment to have a beer with the host of Join Up Dots within two years. And guess what...he made it happen "Hi David, Have been listening to JUD for a little while now and I must say thank you very much for delivering such a brilliant show to us. I finished today's Healthy Living episode with Dr Phil Carson and sat there in my car thinking to myself, David has really nailed all of this, the intro, outro, all of it, just brilliant. I have a long back story, but I won't bore you with it, however due to your podcast, your unbelievable personality and wonderful smile (I know I can't see your smile! Lol) I am putting a goal out there for myself and that is to have a pint with you at a bar within 2 years. I know many people would have a goal of being on your show or something like that, but I know being a successful entrepreneur takes time and while I have fluttered in business/side businesses, well they were hobbies really, for a while this is the first time I'm making an investment in myself (I joined Flipped Lifestyle because of your podcast and when I'm ready to start a podcast I will certainly join your program). Sorry about the boring bit, but to be honest I just felt compelled to write you , just as I felt compelled to subscribe to your show and listen intently to your advice, your guests and everything in between. These really aren't normal things for me, to reach out, however I can relate to you a lot and that is a special gift you have. So Well Done! Thanks for your time and keep up the great work! Simon Bampfield, Melbourne, Australia When you see someone actually doing what they say they are going to do its so inspirational to us at all Join Up Dots. and it was a delight to sit with him and have that beer. Now we turn to another listener who is taking control of their life too. This guy is from South Africa and his name is Jason...as you can see from his email....changes are happening too. Hello David, Hope you are well. A while ago you were gracious enough to give me a short consult and advised me not to give up the job just yet. The problem was that the job was so all encompassing that I was struggling to dedicate time to develop an online business. Slowly the burnout and subsequent depression took its toll, and for a while I have been struggling to find a way out of the grayness of my situation. I was toying with contacting a small company close to home and approaching them. One morning in my long commute I was getting my dose of Join Up Dots and you interviewed a couple (if I recall the husband had been sick and spent a year in bed). Something struck a chord in me with that interview. I parked my car went up to my office, closed the door, took a deep breath and phoned the company close to home. Yes they wanted to see me. After a few months of negotiations I am three weeks from leaving corporate land. Yes I take a pay cut, but will work in a far less stressful environment and I have absolute freedom, to blog, YouTube and podcast to my heart's content. Also no more long commute (I will have to find another time to get my does of Joint Up Dots). Keep up the great work. You are making a difference. So you can see these things happen when they are ready and they cant be rushed. Thanks for listening and we will see you again soon on Join Up Dots.
本周迪老荣幸邀请到 @GulnigarMamat 童鞋一起录节目；We had so much fun recording this episode!这一期一定要听噢！
本周迪老荣幸邀请到 @GulnigarMamat 童鞋一起录节目；We had so much fun recording this episode!这一期一定要听噢！
Kyle and Matt are back to discuss Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons sharing chicken wings, Jimmy Butler being "unhappy", and the Mavericks coming to town. Then the guys tell everyone that it's time to embrace the tank with the Flyers. Then the guys hit the mound and discuss the GREAT move the Phillies made by signing RP David Robertson. And with a playoff game on the horizon, the guys finish the show with a hefty amount of Eagles and Bears talk and do an exercise called "Running through brick walls with John Barchard". Follow Us! Facebook: facebook.com/UndergroundSportsPHI Alyssa's Makeup Page: @MakeupByAlyssaAmber Twitter: @UndergroundPHI Kyle: @KBizzl311 Matt: @mattcastorina John: @JohnBarchard Go Birds: @GoBirdsPod Instagram: @undergroundsportsphiladelphia Alyssa's Makeup Page: @MakeupByAlyssaAmber Twitch: twitch.tv/undergroundsportsPHI Alex's YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCOvaCQkS…FHddA?app=desktop Merch & Apparel: www.teepublic.com/stores/undergrou…phia?ref_id=6145 Intro Music: Arkells "People's Champ" Outro Music: Arkells "People's Champ"
Meet our favorite trainer and one heck of an #investepreneur
Today's episode as is normal for a Fridays show, is a hybrid between keeping you advised as to what is happening in the world of Join Up Dots, and answering a few listener questions. Well, let's start with the show first and foremost. If you have been keeping up with the new routine that we now operate you will know that October has been a rest month for the host of Join Up Dots. Being aware that a business can not operate on a low battery, has pushed David into finding a way that he can bring the business under his control and not the other way around. He has done that by compressing his activities into a four week burst of activity, and then protecting the following week like his life depended on it. Making sure that he utilized batching methods, Parkinson's law and also the 80/20 principle which he is a huge believer in. If you want more free time in your life, and increase your earnings exponentially then as he says "You must think about what you are doing, and what your customer needs most. Cut out all the wasted time that you think is productive, and just do what they truly need." It really has been a game change for sure, and allows for true focus, money building, and great ideas to flow into your brain. Now for some questions from the listeners of Join Up Dots "Hi David, I am a 26 year old female originally from Jakarta in Malaysia, but now living in Holland. I love your show and all the interesting stories that you give us. I am in a job that i dont like and find very unfulfilling. My passion is to create a business around Yoga, and specifically Pranayama, which is the formal practice of controlling the breath, which is the source of our prana, or vital life force. This seems so specific that I wonder if I could manage to build a business around this. Any suggestions I would truly appreciate it." Adelia, Amsterdam. The second question this week is from John from Cheshire who asks "David what is the first thing that you do each day in your business. I would love some guidance as I spend much of my time deciding to do something and not actually doing anything" And now the last question from the Join Up Dots listeners comes from M. Archer from Tupelo, Mississippi who wants more guidance in regards to finding money from her Toy Making business. "Hello David, over the last few years I have been working on a toy making business. These are small knitted replicas of friends and family. They send me pictures and then I make small models of them. I love doing it, as its very therapeutic. But it is also time consuming so the money I can charge for the toys, is nowhere near what my hourly wage would be in a job. Any suggestions as to how I can develop this business that I love into one that I can do full time?" Thank you as always for you your time and listening to the show.
Hello David, it's long time to see you again. Hi Neptune, congratulation for your marriage. Well, This is a nice talk show, I always like this. In this talk show, David talks about starting to his guest "Neptune" about his marriage. Neptune Explain about his marriage that how to going all about this things. David talk from Neptune about his work. Sometimes he talks some funny thing like he asks Neptune about her sister like she is hot or not. Neptune shares some bad thing about his job. David also asks t Neptune about some adult thing. David shares such thing about Miranda and his love thing. This part of the show I really like. The first caller name I guess "tony" is looking very exciting. He talks very fast his voice not clear but I think he is really looking happy to talk with David. In the last part of the show there was alen, But I don't know about alen, why he was he there. So, this was a nice talk, I am sunil from India rating this talk show 4 star. Thank you.
How To Gain Confidence If We lack Confidence Big Time Todays episode of Join Up Dots is a solo show, where David Ralph answers a series of questions posed by the lovely listeners of Join Up Dots. Most of the questions in their own way are linked to the issue of confidence: Lack of it, or too much of it, and how it can affect our lives in a positive and negative manner. So lets start with the first question that 100% is based around lack of confidence. Dear David, I have been listening to your show since the early episodes and you seemed so confident from the start, i would love to ask you a question. I am someone who lacks confidence in myself, and so subsequently I hold myself back from opportunities that could really make a difference in my life. Even if they are ones that I would dearly love. Do you think that people are naturally confident, or do you think that its just a case of working on it. If you would allow me a second personal question, what would be the times in your life that you lack confidence, as you sound like you could never feel like I do. And now for the second question........ Hi David, thank you for Join Up Dots and everything you do. I listen to almost all your shows and love the way that you are so engaging. I live in Western Australia and have several times been close to starting a business. The first one was a laundry business for busy folk. I would pick up their laundry and then return it washed, ironed and ready to hangup. The second business, was to be a groundworking business, landscaping gardens, planting, and generally maintenance. My issue is, as soon as I get anything close to a negative comment from anyone my interest in that business disappears. I'm not sure why I am so bothered by what people think, but I guess I am. Do you have negative comments thrown your way through your show, and how do you deal with them? Thank you so much Brian Siennet, Port Hedland, Western Australia. The last question....... Hello David and the Join Up Dots team. I have since listening to yourself started my own business WHOO HOO and im loving every moment of it. I agree with what you say, a business is finding your customers, discovering what they want and then offering it to them. However, I am using all the social media platforms and I am struggling to get any of those customers you talk about. I would love any advice that you can offer to help me to build profits into your life Nicola, Albany, New York. Of course if you are interested in the answers that we give you have to listen to the show.....
TeamClearCoat - An Automotive Enthusiast Podcast by Two Car Nerds
Episode 106-A man. A van. Also another man. Hello David and Ian, long-time victim, first-time complainer here. I just wanted to say that while I appreciate the breakthroughs you made on episode 106, Ian's grumpiness, the shin-destroying capabilities of Ikea furniture and our ability to automate human beings have nothing to do with cars. Please knock it off. Also, once you did get to cars, all you talked about was a minivan and how to model your own life after an unreliable Alfa Romeo. Please stick to technical discussions about camshafts and camber. Oh, and for everyone's sake, stop talking about feet and BMs. Thanks. TeamClearCoat website AutoWerkz Blog TeamClearCoat Drivetribe TeamClearCoat YouTube Channel TeamClearCoat Instagram TeamClearCoat Twitter TeamClearCoat Facebook TeamClearCoat Video Game Recommendations on Steam
David: What is Brand Identity Development? How do you tell your brand story? How does that all come together as part of a coherent marketing strategy? Those just really the questions that I intended to ask today’s special guest, Alex Williams. Alex, welcome to DMR! Alex: Hello David. Thank you for having me on. David: Welcome. Alex likes to call himself the “Swiss Army Knife” of marketing in creative services. He offer services like logo and identity development as well as marketing strategy; and you can find them at thermalexposure.com. So Alex, you enjoy wearing lots of different hats then? Alex: Yeah. I guess I have to. I started out as a web developer just in the early days around 1998. That’s make a grandfather in internet years. David: Before my time. Alex: Yeah. After doing a little bit of web development, I really got a hankering for getting into design. Once I was into design, I realized I needed to use my own photographs and so I taught myself photography and that transitioned into video and so yes, I wear a lot of hats. I guess you’d say I might attention deficit disorder or something because I jump from thing to thing, but yeah, it keeps me happy. David: I’ve worn lots of different hands but I try and wear just one hat at the same time. Because I remember back in … I didn’t start getting online in terms of running a business online until about 2000 but it’s still quite a long time ago and I was using Photoshop back the obviously, things have moved on so much really. Really, you focused on Brand Identity Development at the moment and how … Alex: Yes. That’s correct. David: How would you describe that? Alex: I work with a lot of new company startups, nano-technology and the kind of things that we have in the Pacific Northwest. Just lots startups so people come to me and they say, “I need a logo.” Well, what do you do? There’s a lot of questions that goes into the very first elements of creating a brand. Yeah, I find it really useful to interview my clients to find out what it is exactly that they do and how they’re changing the world. You really need to differentiate yourself from other people and you need to think about all those things even before you begin to create a logo.
Dialogue number 1 - Hello, nice to meet you, what’s your name? - My name is David. - Hello David. How old are you? - I’m nine. - And where do you live? - I live in Liverpool, in the UK. - Oh that’s nice! And how many sisters have you got? - I’ve got one sister. - How many brothers have you got? - I’ve got no brothers. - What’s your favourite sport? - I like football. - Oh great, me too! Bye, bye David. - Bye, bye. --- Dialogue number 2 - Hello, nice to meet you. What’s your name? - My name is Alice, - Hello Alice. How old are you? - I’m eleven. - And where do you live? - I live in Edimburgh in the Scotland. - Oh that’s nice! And how many sisters have you got? - I’ve got two sisters. - How many brothers have you got? - I’ve got one brother. - What’s your favourite sport? - I like swimming. - Oh, I don’t like swimming, I prefer tennis. OK, bye. - Bye. --- Monologue “Hello my name is Mary. I’m eight. I live in Philadelphia, in the USA. I’ve got one sister. I’ve got two brothers. I like baseball.”
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