Podcasts about Toyota Kata

The W. Edwards Deming Institute® Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 5, 2025 21:12

What are the challenges when it comes to implementing Toyota Kata at scale? In this episode of Troubleshooting agile, Jeffrey talks about how they're using the Improvement and Coaching Katas to foster better structured learning and accountability across multiple teams. Links: - Toyota Kata: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Kata - Shu, Ha, Ri: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuhari - Previous episode - Toya Toyota Kata A-Z: https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/toyota-kata-a-z -------------------------------------------------- You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

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Frame the Challenge: Path for Improvement (Part 3)

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 11, 2024 33:50

John Dues and Andrew Stotz are diving deeper into the improvement model that John is building with his team. In this episode, learn the three ways to think about an improvement frame for your big challenge. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.6 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we dive deeper into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today I'm continuing my discussion with John Dues, who is part of the new generation of educators striving to apply Dr. Deming's principles to unleash student joy in learning. And the topic for today is Frame the Challenge. John, take it away. 0:00:23.6 John Dues: Hey Andrew, it's good to be back. Yeah, we're gonna talk about Framing the Challenge today. We kicked off a new series a couple of episodes ago. I introduced this improvement model that we can use to set ambitious goals backed with this sound methodology. Make this disclaimer again, we're sort of building the plane while we are flying it. So this improvement model is new at United Schools where I work. And so again, we're actually letting listeners sort of see it as it's being built and first put to use. And so I think just starting out with a quick recap of the model is a good place to start. So what is this improvement model that we've been looking at? I'll pull up my screen so we can share a visual of the model for those that are watching. Right. Can you see that all right? 0:01:21.2 AS: Yep. 0:01:21.3 JD: Great. Give me one second. All right. So we have this improvement model. Basically the core idea of the model is it gives us the scientific way of thinking. And remember, we talked about we're working to close this gap between current conditions in our organizations and future aspirations. In order to close this gap, we're walking through the four steps on the model. So first, we set the challenge of direction. That's really where we focused our time last episode. The second step is to grasp the current condition. The third step is to establish the next target condition. And then the fourth step is to experiment to overcome obstacles. And that's where we spend most of our time in this four-step process. And then the other thing we've talked about is we do it with this team. The people working in the system, that's one part of the system, one part of the team. 0:02:19.8 JD: And we've talked about this in our case. This can be students, it can be teachers, whoever the frontline people are in your organization. Then there's those with the authority to work on the system, to make changes to the design or the architecture of the system. That could be a teacher in a classroom, or we've said the principal of a school, or maybe the superintendent of a system of schools. And then one of the innovations that we've made to this improvement model is that that third group or that third person on the team is someone that has Profound Knowledge, someone that's using Deming's principles to guide the work. So that's the basic model that we looked at in the first episode and... 0:03:11.8 AS: And I would just highlight... By the way, can you put it on slideshow? 0:03:15.3 JD: Sure. 0:03:15.4 AS: And I've been reading Mike Rother's book, rereading his book on Toyota Kata and stuff. And so this has really got me back to it. But what you're doing is applying this and helping us understand it as you're putting it into action at your school, right? 0:03:35.0 JD: Yeah, we've had an improvement model. And I think... Yeah, so like it says down in the right hand corner, that this model, it's based on Mike Rother's work, the Toyota Kata work. I think one thing that was missing from our model previously was like, how do you set this challenge or direction? How do you do that in an ambitious but reasonable way? And I think Mike Rother's sort of model speaks to this. So that's why I like his four-step model. I also like the four steps because it's pretty simple. It's not 15 steps. It's not 20 steps. It's four steps. Now there are some steps that you have to learn and stuff like that. There are different pieces to each of the steps, but I like that it's four steps. It's sort of easy to remember. It's memorable. And I think the innovation that we've done so far is who is the team that's working through this? And I think to frame it as the people working in the system, the people working on the system, and then someone with Profound Knowledge, I think that's an innovation, from what I've read about Mike Rother's work. 0:04:39.6 AS: Yep. 0:04:40.4 JD: Yeah. And so to continue the recap from last time, I think in the last episode, so we introduced the model two episodes ago. And then last episode, what we said we were gonna do is start walking through each of the steps, episode by episode, and do a deeper dive into each of the steps. And we did that with step one last time. So we did Set the Challenge last time. And just as a refresher, this is that longer range goal that would differentiate us from other schools in our case, if we achieve it. But remember, we also said it seems nearly impossible at the outset. This is something that's off in the horizon. It's probably gonna take at least six months, probably more like two or three years. And then I gave this example at United where I am. So we're a school system. One of the challenges that we've set is to reduce our chronic absenteeism from 52%. So that's sort of the current condition. And we wanna bring that down to 5%. And there's this huge gap between those things. Obviously, we talked about an order of magnitude, and we don't quite know how to get there right now. 0:05:48.7 AS: Yeah, I think that's the point is we don't know how to get there right now. 0:05:57.6 JD: Yeah. Yeah. And I think... And so what I originally had planned to do is to go on to step two. And I think we're gonna do that next. But I wanted to pause because last time we briefly touched on this idea of Framing the Challenge as an improvement goal. And so with this episode, what I wanna do first before we go on to step two is talk about how to sort of think about that framing. And I sort of have studied a little bit of performance management from healthcare specifically. And there's really these three phases of performance management. When you're setting a goal, there's sort of performance measurement that has a research orientation. There's performance measurement that has an accountability orientation. And there's performance management that has an improvement orientation. And I think it's really important to understand the difference between those three types of measurement because I think conflation of those three things can derail and often derail improvement efforts. And in fact, as I was doing some research for this episode, I read this quote in one of the journal articles that I was sort of reviewing. It said, "the problem with measurement is that it can be a loaded gun, dangerous if misused, and at least threatening if pointed in the wrong direction." [laughter] 0:07:19.6 JD: Right. So, when I read that I was like, this is important enough to take a pause and do a little bit deeper dive into that, you know, the differences between the three that we sort of got into on a surface level last time. 0:07:33.5 AS: One of the things that I like to say these days when I talk to people about measurement is measurement... If the subject being measured, let's say a table, I'm gonna measure the length of a table versus measuring the performance of an individual as an example. If the subject being measured knows, is aware that they're being measured, you're gonna have a problem. 0:08:02.0 JD: Yeah, I think that's very well put. And... 0:08:07.5 AS: The table doesn't care. 0:08:09.3 JD: The table doesn't care, but people always do. No doubt. No doubt. So I thought it'd be... I put together a table for those that are watching 'cause there is a lot of nuance to this and we'll kind of walk through this step by step, sort of the differences between goals or measurement for research, measurement for accountability, and then measurement for improvement. So I think just... I came up with these dimensions in some of the research I was doing. So, what's the purpose of each of those? What questions are you trying to answer? What are some example questions that are answered with that type of measurement? What's actually getting measured? How often is it getting measured? And then why does quality improvement or quality measurement matter in that particular area? So let's start with the purpose first. So when we're thinking about measurement for research, what we're really trying to do is contribute to some knowledge base, right? 0:09:01.8 JD: You know, I think the classic example is, what a university professor is often doing in their research. The second type of measurement is measurement for accountability. And really there, what we talked about last time is the purpose is to determine the application of rewards and sanctions or rewards and punishments. And that's really juxtaposed against measurement for improvement, which is... The purpose there is to learn our way to a system that produces a higher level of performance, right? And so let's look at measurement for research. We talked about the purpose being contributing to the knowledge base. If the questions that we're asking are about constructs or relationships between constructs or theories, then research is probably the direction we wanna go. An example question would be what's the relationship between two conceptual variables and what gets measured is... Could be numerous latent variables, but how often is this measurement happening? Typically once or twice during a study. And what we're trying to do is detect a relationship where they exist, right? 0:10:16.8 AS: So it could be... Like in a school, it could be a relationship between being late, the late rate and the absenteeism rate. 0:10:29.9 JD: Yeah. I mean, you could do research into why is it that student... Why are students chronically absent? You could do research into what's the best way scientifically to teach reading, right? And so you're gonna sort of come up with some answers there, at least answers that are sort of coming out of a lab, right? And a lot of times measurement for research or research goal or research study, that can be helpful to sort of initially point you in the right direction. You might do a literature review when you're trying to come up with solutions in your particular context. 0:11:10.3 AS: And it's important to remember that surveys properly done are a great form of research. So not only going back and seeing what's already been... What is the knowledge base on attendance, but also trying to do some research into what do students or teachers or parents think are root causes as an example. 0:11:33.3 JD: Sure. 0:11:34.8 AS: Okay. Great. 0:11:35.5 JD: Gives you a starting point, right? And so you certainly need measurement for research for sure. In that second bucket, we have measurement for accountability. And this is probably the thing that teachers and educators are most used to because there's accountability systems in all 50 states, right? And remember, we said the purpose is to determine who should be rewarded and who should be sanctioned. That's the purpose of an accountability measure. It's gonna answer questions about merit or status or accomplishment. It could be of someone like an individual teacher in a classroom, or perhaps about a school, for example. It's gonna answer questions like who's performing well and who isn't, who should be considered knowledgeable enough to do whatever, something X, right? But when we're talking about measurements, they're typically end-of-the-line outcomes, usually once per year after the fact. I've given state tests as an example multiple times. That's a very typical accountability measure end-of-the-line outcome. And why it's important to have quality measurement for accountability is that we can assign consequences based on measurement that lacks sufficient technical rigor so. 0:12:56.0 AS: Consequences as in rewards and sanctions? 0:13:00.4 JD: Could be... Yeah, consequences as in rewards and sanctions. And so there's technical guides that go with accountability systems. So how is the state, for example, calculating all of these different measures that show up on a school report card, test scores, value-added progress scores, chronic absenteeism rates? All those things have to be well-defined. Data has to be collected systematically. And it has to be done the same across the entire system so that rewards and sanctions are meted out equally amongst all the districts and schools and classrooms. But those two things are very different than measurement for improvement. And that's where I focus most of my time and where these talks really, really focus. And again, we said the purpose is to learn our way to a system that produces a higher level of performance. 0:13:48.4 JD: So we're talking about questions about specific changes as potential improvements to our systems. So some questions might be, are the changes I'm making leading to improvement? How are my changes affecting other parts of my system? And really, we're talking about outcomes and processes relevant to the object of change in terms of what gets measured. And that's happening... Those measurements for outcomes or processes are happening frequently as the practice or as the process occurs, right? Because we want feedback on a much more frequent basis than once or twice per study or at the end of the school year. That's one of the advantages here of measurement for improvement. And why does quality measurement matter in this particular area? Well, we wanna learn which changes are an improvement without wasting resources or will. Those are both very finite things in organizations, schools are... That's the same in schools. 0:14:55.2 AS: Will as in energy towards this objective, is that what you mean by will? 0:15:01.7 JD: Yeah. So two finite things, resources, which could be time or money. But will, I literally mean the will of the people, the will of the frontline people that you have to get on board with whatever this change is gonna be. And if you're moving between this thing and that, you sort of use up that will for good... 0:15:23.4 AS: It seems you have depleted the will of the people. 0:15:27.4 JD: And that happens all the time, especially where you're in a service business like education, the frontline people are being burned out all the time, teachers, in hospitals it's nurses and other folks in other industries. So that's the basic overview. And then I think one of the key things here is that there are some real measurement limitations when it comes to accountability measures and research measures or goals, when we're thinking about organizational improvement. 0:16:08.5 JD: I think the key limitation for accountability goals is that... The key limitation for improvement is that it does not illuminate why the outcomes occur or what should be done to change them when we're thinking about accountability system. For research, the key limitation for improvement is that it is impractical to administer it and not designed to inform changes in practice. So those are some real limitations. But what often happens, I think... And I should say again, like we said at the outset, that the three types of measurement are complementary. Like we need each of these three different types of performance measurement. But I think what happens is that problems arise when they're not used for their intended purpose. Remember, we said research, we wanna contribute to the knowledge base, that's the purpose. For accountability, application of award and sanctions. And for improvement, there we're actually learning our way to a better system, right? So, I thought it would be useful here. I may put you through like a little quiz here to apply the purposes of measurement to the right scenario. So, I have three situations here. They're unrelated to education. So, there's no pressure there. So, I'll read the three situations and then you're gonna tell me how would you... Which of the measurement purposes would you use? 0:17:47.7 AS: So, research, accountability, or improvement. 0:17:49.2 JD: Research, accountability, or improvement so. 0:17:53.6 AS: And I'm doing this on behalf of our listeners and readers so... And listeners and viewers. 0:17:55.7 JD: Everyone yeah. 0:17:56.7 AS: So, pay attention ladies and gentlemen, 'cause my answers may be wrong, but yours may be right. Okay. 0:18:01.7 JD: This is the check for understanding. This is a true education exercise here. And we're gonna be talking about avocados, right? So, there's no prior knowledge needed. So, I'll read through the first three situations, give you a chance to think, and I can repeat them if necessary, and you kind of think between those three. So, the first situation is rank the grocery stores in Columbus, Ohio, according to the quality of their avocados. So, would you use measurement for accountability, measurement for research, measurement for improvement? That's the first situation. The second situation is understand the relationship between weather, soil, acidity, and the eventual quality of an avocado grown in California. And the third situation is improve the quality of avocados on sale across all stores in Columbus. So, let's go back to that first situation. So, if you're gonna rank the grocery stores in Columbus according to the quality of their avocados, what type of measurement orientation makes the most sense? 0:19:15.5 AS: So I'm thinking accountability. 0:19:20.0 JD: Yeah, that's exactly right. Accountability, it's basically a grading system for avocados. You think how meat gets graded, it's grade A meat. That's really an accountability system. 0:19:33.6 AS: Okay, so listeners, viewers, did you get that one right? These are tough. John's a tough teacher. All right. Next one. 0:19:39.0 JD: You're one for one, and you have A grade schools, right? So you have A grade avocados, and that's an accountability measure. The second one was you're understanding the relationship between weather, soil, acidity, and the eventual quality of an avocado grown in California. 0:20:00.2 AS: Ladies and gentlemen, is this research, accountability, and improvement? Well, we've already eliminated accountability, so it's got to be either research or improvement. And if I get this one right, then I'm gonna get the third one right naturally. And I would say that sounds to me more like research. 0:20:15.8 JD: Yeah, that's exactly right. Research, right? So 'cause you're experimenting to see how the manipulation of variables, in this case weather, like the pH level of soil, acidity, impact the quality of an avocado. So you're basically a researcher trying to figure out what's the best combination of those things that gives you the best avocado. But this experimenting is gonna take probably years as you adjust those variables, right? And the last... 0:20:46.5 AS: Yeah, avocados don't grow so fast. 0:20:50.2 JD: They don't grow so fast, yeah. And then the third situation was you wanna improve the quality of avocados on sale across all stores in Columbus. There's only one left, so it's got to be... 0:21:03.5 AS: Well you used the word improve in it, so I think it's improvement orientation, huh? 0:21:06.8 JD: There you go. That's a giveaway. So aim is the quality of the avocado. So the basic theory of change is something like maybe improving the transport time from the field to the store. So there you can see that it's not like one is bad in terms of a measurement orientation and one is good. It's just... Is it being applied to the appropriate situation? 0:21:35.6 JD: There are certainly appropriate situations for accountability, appropriate situations for research and appropriate situations for improvement. So basically to sort of wrap this up, I mean, I thought it was really important because last time we talked, when you set the challenge and then it's gonna be something like a vision far out into the future, maybe two or three years, it's gonna be really important that that challenge is framed correctly because you're gonna be working on this thing for a long time. So with the model, we now have a way to bridge the gap between conditions and future aspirations. There's always gonna be a gap. We now have this model that gives us the scientific way of thinking and working to close the gap. And then we've said it's the responsibility of upper management to set this overall challenge as a key priority. 0:22:37.5 JD: And then we've said it's really important to understand the difference between these three types of performance measurement because conflation of the three can derail our improvement efforts. So the key takeaway here is you wanna frame this challenge or this far out direction that we're heading in as an organization as an improvement goal. And that's gonna orient the work. It's gonna orient the types of questions that you're asking. It's gonna orient the people, and the outcomes and processes that they're tracking. It's gonna orient your measurement system. You're gonna have to come up with frequent process and outcome measures that let you know how you're doing along the way. And the purpose of all of this is to learn our way to a better system. That's the purpose of measurement for improvement. 0:23:34.1 AS: That's great. A great summary. I wanna ask a question. Recently I've been teaching my corporate strategy course and I've been talking about the teachings of Richard Rumelt, who wrote the book called Good Strategy Bad Strategy, which is such a great book on strategy. But one of the things he complains about when he says his bad strategy is just setting an aspirational goal. Because as we learned from Dr. Deming, by what method? Like now, so there's... You've got to have a vision. You've got to have an aspiration of where you're going. But what he really focuses on... I think we're gonna talk about this in next sections. He really focuses on, have we really identified what the problem is? 0:24:21.7 AS: Like, what is the constraint? What is the thing that is holding us back from getting there? And what ends up happening is, when you clearly articulate the problem, what happens is it focuses... It becomes hard. Because to solve that problem, you need new resources. You need to get rid of old stuff. You've got to make substantial changes. And so it's much more comfortable for people to set strategies that are based upon wonderful visions. But never really deal with the problem. And then the workers in the companies, an employee in a company just looks up and goes, what did management just do for that long weekend? They did a weekend getaway to do their corporate strategy. And then they just came up with a fluffy vision of whatever with no help for us of how do we deal with the hardest problem is that we can't beat our competitor with the technology that we have. And we're never gonna get to that goal if we can't solve that problem. 0:25:28.7 JD: Yeah. And that's really the essence of the steps two, three, and four. I mean, the very next thing that we're gonna talk about is one, what's the current situation on the ground? Now we have this aspiration, but what's actually happening? For whatever data we have, whatever time period, 10 years, five years, whatever it is, we're gonna look at that data in a way that gives us a very firm understanding. And then remember, there's that crack in the model. That's the threshold of knowledge. So right up front, we're acknowledging. 0:25:58.0 AS: We don't know how to get over this. We don't know what's blocking us. We don't know... 0:26:03.3 JD: Yeah. We may have some ideas, but... Some initial ideas, but we do not know how to solve this chronic absenteeism problem. And that's where the experimentation comes in. 0:26:11.4 AS: So let me ask you one last question before we go. This is completely selfish, but also for the listeners and viewers out there, that is, I always ask my students this question in corporate strategy, should corporate strategy be kind of secretive in the sense that you're trying to build a competitive advantage and therefore some of the best battle attacks in war were kept secret. Stonewall Jackson was famous in his Shenandoah Valley campaign for not letting anybody know what he was gonna do the next morning. And then... Or should it be public? Like your number of 50 to five is pretty scary. And I'm just curious, what are your thoughts on that? 0:27:00.4 JD: Well, if you're in war, I think you should keep it secret. But pretty much anywhere else, I think public. Now that'd be my opinion. Now I'm in a school setting. I acknowledge that. But I've also seen... 0:27:11.4 AS: This is my quiz for you, by the way. 0:27:14.7 JD: What's that? 0:27:15.6 AS: This is my quiz for you. 0:27:15.7 JD: Your quiz for me. Yeah. Well, I have seen... And I've had the same thought. I think it was one of the founders of Toyota, or maybe someone that was an early CEO basically said, well, you give away your playbook basically. And he's like, well, just because someone has my playbook does not mean they can do it. And so education is a different orientation. There's not corporate secrets. And we're very open, we often share our practices. But I've often been on the... 0:27:45.2 AS: If you could get from 50 to five, you would want the world to know. 0:27:48.8 JD: I would want the world to know. I want everybody to do it. But I've been on the other side of this where I've gone to school and I've reached out to people get a manual or an artifact or something that they have that they do really well at their school system. And I look at it and I'm like, I don't know what to do with this. Right? So it's something altogether different to have the thing and then be able to do it. In our case, it's gonna benefit kids. We're gonna share it as far and wide as possible. So yeah, I think the setting matters. If I'm... The Union Army fighting Stonewall Jackson, then I'm gonna keep my secrets secret, my battle plan secret. But for most of the things I'm gonna share. 0:28:32.9 AS: Nathaniel Banks taking on Jackson. It was a rough series of battles for him. So I'll close out with my thoughts on this, which is that, yeah, I think ultimately once you've decided on what's your goal, where you wanna be, then I think you've got to make it public. And the reason why is because you need your employees to deliver that. It can't be... Everybody needs to be bought in. But even more importantly from a marketing and a relationship with customers, suppliers and others, they need to feel that vision. And they need to feel that mission. I think another great book is Start With Why. And that is why are we doing this? And I just read a great book on corporate strategy that is called Corporate Strategy Demystified. 0:29:25.5 AS: But it's just great because it was written in 2006. So he's talking about the battle between Apple and Compaq and Dell and all of these and IBM. And he doesn't know the outcome that Apple ends up being this multi-trillion dollar business. And basically his last sentence that I read in the last chapter is, it's over for Apple. They just can't compete in this space. And what he missed... This is what I'm teaching tonight, what he missed was the trusting connection that the customers had to Apple, to Apple's mission. Somehow Steve Jobs was able to create that mission and get it out to the world. And in the valley of death, when they were going through the worst time and it didn't seem like they were ever going to be able to do anything, it was customers that stuck with them because they believed in the mission of what they communicated. And it is that total, let's say intangible, that is very hard to measure and very hard to understand. But this is what I got when I was reading that book from 3:00 AM 'till 4:00 AM This morning, John. 0:30:44.4 JD: Whoever that author is was a small miss, a small miss. 0:30:48.8 AS: Yeah. And he's a brilliant guy. And so it's also a great point that just stick with your vision 'cause people's commitment to Apple and all that is so so strong. So being public about what you're doing and sharing it is critical because the last thing, as you said, even if somebody else has your playbook, I like to tell people that if somebody was working at General Motors and they had all the list of all the parts for Cadillac or whatever it is that they're building, and then they went to Toyota and said, build this, just because you have a list of parts and you have that operating system doesn't mean that they can build it because the product was actually designed for the operating system. And it's that entanglement in the actual process of production that makes that corporate strategy almost impossible to duplicate, even if you have the playbook. 0:31:41.8 JD: Yep. Yeah, that's it right there, I think. That's it. 0:31:46.5 AS: So fantastic. Well, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for this discussion. And for listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. You can find John's book, Win-Win: W. Edwards Deming, The System of Profound Knowledge and the Science of Improving Schools on amazon.com. This is your host, Andrew Stotz. And I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. "People are entitled to joy in work" and in school.

GA 549 | Toyota Kata at Jack Henry with April Bell

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 10, 2024 34:28

This week's guest is April Bell. Ron and April discussed how Jack Henry uses Toyota Kata, the power of making predictions, managing remote teams, and more. An MP3 audio version of this episode is available for download here. In this episode you'll learn: The quote April likes (3:17) Her background (4:45) About Jack Henry (6:46) Their continuous improvement journey (7:31) The concept of "first coach second coach" (11:29) What a learner is working on (14:30) Managing coaching sessions for a remote team (18:52) The change management side (20:12) Practical tips for getting started with scientific thinking/Toyota Kata (22:51) April's parting advice (31:26) Podcast Resources Right Click to Download this Podcast as an MP3 April on LinkedIn GA 522 | Continuous Improvement at Jack Henry with April Bell Get All the Latest News from Gemba Academy Our newsletter is a great way to receive updates on new courses, blog posts, and more. Sign up here. What Do You Think? Do you use Toyota Kata and/or scientific thinking? If you work remotely, what does that look like for you?

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Toyota Kata A-Z

canada mission coaching north america vancouver leadership lessons alley kaizen continuous improvement twi building your team lean transformation lean leadership toyota kata

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 9, 2024 22:34

Boost team results by measuring carefully and using consistent methods to move toward your goal–with “scientific thinking” “the Improvement Kata” and “the Coaching Kata”. In this bumper episode, Squirrel and Jeffrey discuss quality and delivery the Toyota Way. Links: - Toyota Kata: https://public.websites.umich.edu/~jmondisa/TK/Homepage.html - Gemba: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba Other relevant episodes: - Episode 214 - Get Your Reps In: https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/get-your-reps-in -------------------------------------------------- You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

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Coaching for Continuous Improvement: Lean Leadership Lessons from Sports with Hugh Alley

Lean Blog Interviews

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 5, 2024 61:19

My guest for Episode #514 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast is Hugh Alley, an author and consultant. He divides his time between coaching senior operational leaders in continuous improvement, training front-line leaders in core supervisory skills, and designing industrial facilities. An industrial engineer, he has run three manufacturing and distribution firms, and a department in a government agency, teaching skills to over 1,000 front-line leaders. He has written two books: Becoming the Supervisor: Achieving Your Company's Mission and Building Your Team, and The TWI Memory Jogger. He frequently speaks about supervision, quality, lean manufacturing, and Toyota Kata. From his home near Vancouver, Canada, he helps clients across North America. In today's episode, we explore the power of TWI (Training Within Industry), its impact on building trust and improving workplace culture, and stories of real-world applications in manufacturing and sports. From reducing cycle times to fostering better leadership, this episode covers key lessons in Lean methodology. Tune in to hear about Hugh's Lean origin story and his experiences in applying Lean principles across various industries. Don't miss out on a thoughtful discussion that blends Lean, leadership, and even hockey! Questions, Notes, and Highlights: What kind of government agency did you work for? How did you reduce lead times for occupational disease claims? What is your lean origin story? Where, when, and why were you introduced to lean? Was the word "Kaizen" used in your early lean experiences? Is job relations typically the starting point in TWI, or does it depend on the culture? What parallels do you see between sports coaching and leadership in the workplace? How can you tell if a workplace problem is due to tactics, teamwork, or culture? What role does continuous improvement play in sports teams' success, and can it happen game to game? How do you see the role of fear in leadership and coaching, and what impact does removing a "bully" leader have on a team? How can job instruction and job relations contribute to better workplace culture and performance? How do you approach the challenge of hiring the right people and fitting them into a lean system? How did TWI help one of your clients shorten training times and reduce bad product? What opportunities do you see for companies to create "practice days" similar to sports teams? How do you convince leaders to care about improving their supervisors' skills? What role does a coach or leader play in creating the right context for their team to succeed? What do you think makes a great player transition into a great coach? How do you use the TWI model to break down jobs and help people learn faster? What's your take on benchmarking against others in the industry? How did you help reduce patient waiting times in a medical lab by aligning priorities? Was Wayne Gretzky's coaching career unsuccessful, or did he just pick the wrong job? How do you translate great skills into effective coaching, and how does TWI help with that? The podcast is brought to you by Stiles Associates, the premier executive search firm specializing in the placement of Lean Transformation executives. With a track record of success spanning over 30 years, it's been the trusted partner for the manufacturing, private equity, and healthcare sectors. Learn more. This podcast is part of the #LeanCommunicators network.

Using TWI to Identify and Develop Leaders

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 27, 2024 51:38

What You'll Learn: In this episode, hosts Catherine McDonald, Andy Olrich, and guest Hugh Alley discuss how crucial it is to identify and develop effective leaders in today's dynamic business environment. Training Within Industry (TWI) offers a systematic approach to building foundational skills that not only enhance operational performance but also cultivate leadership potential. About the Guest: Hugh Alley is author and consultant. He divides his time between coaching senior operational leaders in continuous improvement, training front line leaders in core supervisory skills, and designing industrial facilities. Trained as an industrial engineer, he has run three manufacturing and distribution firms, and a department in a government agency. He has taught skills to over 1,000 front-line leaders. He has written two books: "Becoming the Supervisor: Achieving Your Company's Mission and Building Your Team", and "The TWI Memory Jogger". He speaks frequently about supervision, quality, lean manufacturing and Toyota Kata. From his home near Vancouver, Canada, he helps clients across North America. Links: Click Here For Hugh Alley's LinkedIn Click Here For Hugh Alley's Book: Becoming The Supervisor Click Here For More Information On First Line Training ⁠Click Here For Catherine McDonald's LinkedIn⁠ ⁠Click Here For Andy Olrich's LinkedIn⁠ --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/leansolutions/support

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Toyota Kata Part III

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 7, 2024 10:46

Boost team results by measuring carefully and using consistent methods to move toward your goal–with “the Coaching Kata”. In part three of this mini series, Squirrel and Jeffrey discuss quality and delivery the Toyota Way. Links: - Toyota Kata: https://public.websites.umich.edu/~jmondisa/TK/Homepage.html - Gemba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba Other relevant episodes: - https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/get-your-reps-in - https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/toyota-kata-part-i - https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/toyota-kata-part-ii -------------------------------------------------- You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

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Toyota Kata Part II

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 31, 2024 13:25

Boost team results by measuring carefully and using consistent methods to move toward your goal–with “the Improvement Kata”. In part two of our Toyota Kata series, Squirrel and Jeffrey discuss quality and delivery the Toyota Way. Links: - Toyota Kata: https://public.websites.umich.edu/~jmondisa/TK/Homepage.html - Gemba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba Other relevant episodes: https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/get-your-reps-in https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/toyota-kata-part-i -------------------------------------------------- You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

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Toyota Kata Part I

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 24, 2024 7:18

Boost team results by measuring carefully and using consistent methods to move toward your goal–with “scientific thinking”. In this episode of Troubleshooting Agile, Squirrel and Jeffrey discuss quality and delivery the Toyota Way. Links: - Toyota Kata: https://public.websites.umich.edu/~jmondisa/TK/Homepage.html - Gemba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba Other relevant episodes: https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/get-your-reps-in [previous episodes in this mini-series] -------------------------------------------------- You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html effrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

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People Relationship Skills to Lead: a dialogue with Hugh Alley & Skip Steward – Part 4

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Play Episode Listen Later Jul 4, 2024 29:35

Hugh Alley is author and consultant. He divides his time between coaching senior operational leaders in continuous improvement, training front line leaders in core supervisory skills, and designing industrial facilities. He trained as an industrial engineer. He has run three manufacturing and distribution firms, and a department in a government agency. He has taught skills to over 1,000 front-line leaders. He has written two books: Becoming the Supervisor: Achieving Your Company's Mission and Building Your Team, and The TWI Memory Jogger. He speaks frequently about supervision, quality, lean manufacturing and Toyota Kata. From his home near Vancouver, Canada, he helps clients across North America.Skip Steward is the Vice President and Chief Improvement Officer at Baptist Memorial Health Care.Link to claim CME credit: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3DXCFW3CME credit is available for up to 3 years after the stated release dateContact CEOD@bmhcc.org if you have any questions about claiming credit.

People Relationship Skills to Lead: a dialogue with Hugh Alley & Skip Steward – Part 3

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Play Episode Listen Later Jun 27, 2024 29:22

People Relationship Skills to Lead: a dialogue with Hugh Alley & Skip Steward – Part 2

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Play Episode Listen Later Jun 20, 2024 31:46

Hugh Alley is author and consultant. He divides his time between coaching senior operational leaders in continuous improvement, training front line leaders in core supervisory skills, and designing industrial facilities. He trained as an industrial engineer. He has run three manufacturing and distribution firms, and a department in a government agency. He has taught skills to over 1,000 front-line leaders. He has written two books: Becoming the Supervisor: Achieving Your Company's Mission and Building Your Team, and The TWI Memory Jogger. He speaks frequently about supervision, quality, lean manufacturing and Toyota Kata. From his home near Vancouver, Canada, he helps clients across North America.Skip Steward is the Vice President and Chief Improvement Officer at Baptist Memorial Health Care. Link to claim CME credit: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3DXCFW3CME credit is available for up to 3 years after the stated release dateContact CEOD@bmhcc.org if you have any questions about claiming credit.

People Relationship Skills to Lead: a dialogue with Hugh Alley & Skip Steward – Part 1

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Play Episode Listen Later Jun 13, 2024 30:13

Hugh Alley is author and consultant. He divides his time between coaching senior operational leaders in continuous improvement, training front line leaders in core supervisory skills, and designing industrial facilities. He trained as an industrial engineer. He has run three manufacturing and distribution firms, and a department in a government agency. He has taught skills to over 1,000 front-line leaders. He has written two books: Becoming the Supervisor: Achieving Your Company's Mission and Building Your Team, and The TWI Memory Jogger. He speaks frequently about supervision, quality, lean manufacturing and Toyota Kata. From his home near Vancouver, Canada, he helps clients across North America.Skip Steward is the Vice President and Chief Improvement Officer at Baptist Memorial Health Care. Link to claim CME credit: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3DXCFW3CME credit is available for up to 3 years after the stated release dateContact CEOD@bmhcc.org if you have any questions about claiming credit.

Give Wings To Your Team

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Play Episode Listen Later May 7, 2024 47:59

What You'll Learn: In this episode, hosts Andy Olrich and Patrick Adams discuss the difficulty of navigating through a crisis of market competition and organizational chaos. Through the transformative power of Toyota Kata in Lean methodology, we can embrace a culture of scientific thinking and coaching. Learning to empower our teams, transcend conventional practices, and unlock new realms of success gives us a path to success through continuous improvement. About the Guest: Tilo Schwarz supports organizations and managers in successfully leading change and empowering their teams for improvement, adaptiveness, and superior results. He was a plant manager at a renowned German power-tool manufacturer, where he and his management team started practicing Toyota Kata as part of Mike Rother's groundbreaking research in 2007. By doing so, Tilo and his team established continuous improvement as a daily working routine throughout all processes and areas of the plant. That led to winning the A. T. Kearny manufacturing competition "Factory of the Year" and a WHU/INSEAD Industrial Excellence Award. Tilo is co-founder of the Campus for Leaders at the University of Applied Science Ansbach and the author of several books on coaching and Toyota Kata. Links: ⁠⁠⁠Click Here For Andy Olrich's LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click Here For Patrick Adams LinkedIn⁠ Click Here For Tilo's Book: “Giving Wings to Her Team” Click Here For More Information On Tilo Schwarz⁠⁠Click Here For The Lean Solutions Summit⁠ --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/leansolutions/support

GA 522 | Continuous Improvement at Jack Henry with April Bell

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 4, 2024 29:05

This week's guest is April Bell. Ron and April discussed how Jack Henry uses continuous improvement, specifically Toyota Kata. They also explored quantifying waste in an office setting, and the intersection of tools and scientific thinking. An MP3 audio version of this episode is available for download here. In this episode you'll learn: April's favorite quote (2:08) Her background (2:56) Some of the challenges Jack Henry has faced with continuous improvement (4:57) Their experience with kata (8:38) The framework they use (12:03) How they quantify waste (13:38) Their vision and plan (16:25) The intersection of tools and scientific thinking (18:40) The challenges they're facing (19:59) Advice for getting started (25:30) Podcast Resources Right Click to Download this Podcast as an MP3 April on LinkedIn Get All the Latest News from Gemba Academy Our newsletter is a great way to receive updates on new courses, blog posts, and more. Sign up here. What Do You Think? Have you used kata in an office setting?

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Applying CI To Our Personal Lives

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Play Episode Listen Later Apr 2, 2024 40:47

What You'll Learn: In this episode, hosts Patrick Adams and Andy Olrich discuss coaching and personal growth, highlighting the importance of iterations and experimentation in learning, emphasizing the need to focus on others rather than oneself in coaching practices. Everyone, regardless of position or expertise, shares common struggles and the importance of normalizing vulnerability and seeking support within professional communities is essential to success. About the Guest: Sam Morgan is a self-proclaimed “confident learner.” After spending the past five years of work in the continuous improvement space he landed at KataCon, a conference for continuous improvement professionals who practice the Toyota Kata. There he had a powerful moment realizing where his true passion lies: transforming people through coaching. Ever since then he has been on a mission to help folks illuminate who they really are, what they were created to do, and give them the confidence to live it out through the powerful practice of daily coaching. Sam helps change the lives of people through the process of uncovering their PURPOSE, helping them understand the PATTERN of the Improvement Kata, tied together through the PRACTICE of daily coaching cycles. Sam takes joy in seeing his clients move from fearful to fearless; from insecure to confident. He resonates deeply with the quote from Henry David Thoreau, “Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.” Links: ⁠Click Here For Andy Olrich's LinkedIn ⁠⁠⁠⁠Click Here For Patrick Adam's LinkedIn⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Click Here for Sam Morgan's LinkedIn⁠⁠ Click Here for Sam Morgan's Website --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/leansolutions/support

Goal Setting Is Often An Act of Desperation: Part 3

The W. Edwards Deming Institute® Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 2, 2024 29:48

In part 3 of this series, John Dues and host Andrew Stotz talk about the final 5 lessons for data analysis in education. Dive into this discussion to learn more about why data analysis is essential and how to do it right. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.4 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today I'm continuing my discussion with John Dues who is part of the new generation of educators striving to apply Dr. Deming's principles to unleash student joy in learning. This is episode 23 and we're talking about goal setting through a Deming lens. John, take it away. 0:00:30.8 John Dues: It's good to be back, Andrew. Yeah, in this first episode of this four-part series, we talked about why goal setting is often an act of desperation. And if you remember early on, I sort of proposed those four conditions that organizations should understand about their systems prior to ever setting a goal. Those four were capability, variation, stability, and then by what method are you going to improve your system? And then in the last episode, I introduced the first five lessons of the 10 key lessons for data analysis. And remember, these lessons were set up to avoid what I call these arbitrary and capricious education goals, which are basically unreasonable goals without consideration of those four things, the system capability, variation, and stability, and then not having a method. So, it might be helpful just to recap those first five lessons. I'll just list them out and folks that want to hear the details can listen to the last episode. 0:01:31.8 JD: But lesson one was data have no meaning apart from their context. So, we've got to contextualize the data. Lesson two was we don't manage or control the data. The data is the voice of the process. So, it's sort of, you know, the data over time shows us what's happening and we don't really have control over that data. We do have control under that underlying process. Lesson three was plot the dots for any data that occurs in time order. So, take it out of a two-point comparison or take it out of a spreadsheet and put it on a line chart that shows the data over time. Lesson four was two or three data points are not a trend. So again, get beyond the typical two-point limited comparison this month and last month, this year and last year, this same month, last year, those types of things, this week, last week. 0:02:25.6 JD: And then lesson five was, show enough data in your baseline to illustrate the previous level of variation. So, we want to get a sense of how the data is changing over time and we need a baseline amount of data, whether that's 12 points, 15 points, 20 points, there's sort of different takes on that. But somewhere in that 12-to-20-point range is really the amount of data we want to have in our baseline. So, we understand how it's moving up and down over time sort of naturally. Sort of at the outset of those two episodes, we also talked about centering the process behavior charts, like the ones we viewed in many of our episodes. And we put those in the center because it's a great tool for looking at data over time, just like we've been talking about. 0:03:11.4 JD: And I think when we use this methodology, and when you start to fully grasp the methodology, you start to be able to understand messages that are actually contained in the data. You can differentiate between those actual special events, those special causes, and just those everyday up and downs, what we've called common causes. And in so doing, we can understand the difference between reacting to noise and understanding actual signals of significance in that data. And so, I think that's a sort of a good primer to then get into lessons six through 10. 0:03:51.2 AS: Can't wait. 0:03:53.3 JD: Cool. We'll jump in then. 0:03:56.1 AS: Yeah. I'm just thinking about my goal setting and how much this helps me think about how to improve my goal setting. And I think one of the biggest ones that's missing that we talked about before is by what method. And many people think that they're setting strategy, when in fact, they're just setting stretch targets with nothing under it. And they achieve it by luck or are baffled why they don't achieve it. And then they lash out at their employees. 0:04:31.4 JD: Yeah, there was really... I mean, that goes back to one of those four conditions of setting goal capability. You have to understand how capable your system is before you can set, it's fine to set a stretch goal, but it has to be within the bounds of the system. Otherwise, it's just maybe not an uncertainty, but a mathematical improbability. That's not good. Like you're saying, it's not a good way to operate if you're a worker in that system. So, lesson six then, to continue the lessons. 0:05:06.8 JD: So, lesson six is "the goal of data analysis in schools is not just to look at past results, but also, and perhaps more importantly, to look forward and predict what is likely to occur in the future," right? So that's why centering the process behavior charts is so important, because they allow you to interpret data that takes variation into account, allows you to classify the data into the routine or common cause variation or the exceptional, that's the special cause variation, and allows us to turn our focus to that underlying or the behavior of the underlying system that produced the results. And it's this focus on the system and its processes that's then the basis for working towards continual improvement. 0:06:00.6 AS: And I was just thinking about number six, the goal is to predict what is likely to occur in the future. And I was just thinking, and what's likely to occur in the future is exactly what's happening now, or the trend that's happening, unless we change something in the system, I guess. 0:06:16.4 JD: Yeah. And that's why just setting the stretch goal is often disconnected from any type of reality, because we have this idea that somehow something magical is going to happen in the future that didn't happen in the past. And nothing magical is going to happen unless we are intentional about doing something differently to bring about that change. 0:06:39.5 AS: And that's a great lesson for the listeners and the viewers. It's like, have you been just setting stretch targets and pushing people to achieve these stretch targets? And not really understanding that your role is to understand that you're going to get the same result unless you start to look at how do we improve the method, the system, that type of thing. 0:07:05.0 JD: Yeah. And usually when you have those stretch goals, you've looked at what happened last year, and then you base the stretch goal on last year. But perhaps, you're seeing, for the last three or four years, the data has been steadily decreasing, right? And you can't realize that if you haven't charted that over the last three or four years, hopefully beyond that. So, you have no idea or it could have been trending positively, and you may under shoot your stretch goal because you missed a trend that was already in motion because of something that happened in the past. 0:07:44.8 AS: You made a chart for me, a run chart on my intake for my Valuation Masterclass Bootcamp. And we've been working on our marketing, and I presented it to the team and we talked about that's the capability of our system based upon for me to say, I want 500 students when we've been only getting 50 is just ridiculous. And that helped us all to see that if we are going to go to the next level of where we want to be, we've got to change what we're doing, the method that we're getting there, the system that we're running and what we're operating to get there or else we're going to continue to get this output. And so if the goal is to predict what is likely to occur in the future, if we don't make any changes, it's probably going to continue to be like it is in that control chart. 0:08:42.8 JD: Yeah. And that example is, in a nutshell, the System of Profound Knowledge in action in an organization where you're understanding variation in something that's important to you, enrollment in your course. You're doing that analysis with the team. So, there's the psychological component and you're saying, well, what's our theory of knowledge? So, what's our theory for how we're going to bring about some type of improvement? And so, now you're going to run probably something like a PDSA. And so now you have all those lenses of the System of Profound Knowledge that you're bringing together to work on that problem. And that's all it is really in a nutshell. 0:09:22.2 AS: Yeah. And the solution's not necessarily right there. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not. And we've got to iterate. Okay. Should we be doing marketing in-house or should we be doing it out using an outsourced service? What if we improve and increase the volume of our marketing? What effect would that have? What if we decrease the... What if we change to this method or that method? Those are all things that we are in the process of testing. I think the hardest thing in business, in my opinion, with this is to test one thing at a time. 0:09:58.5 JD: Yeah. 0:09:58.7 AS: I just, we I want to test everything. 0:10:00.4 JD: Yeah. Yeah. I read in the Toyota Kata that I think we've talked about before here, which talks about Toyota's improvement process. I read this in the book, I don't know if this is totally always true, but basically they focus on single factor experiments for that reason, even in a place as complex and as full of engineers as Toyota, they largely focus on single factor experiments. They can actually tell what it is that brought about the change. I mean, I'm sure they do other more complicated things. They would have to write a design of experiments and those types of things, but by and large, their improvement process, the Toyota Kata, is focused on single factor experiments for that reason. 0:10:48.1 AS: And what's that movie, the sniper movie where they say, slow is smooth and smooth is fast or something like that, like slow down to speed up. I want to go fast and do all of these tests, but the fact is I'm not learning as much from that. And by slowing down and doing single factor experiment to try to think, how do we influence the future is fascinating. 0:11:20.9 JD: Yeah, absolutely. 0:11:22.4 AS: All right. What about seven? 0:11:23.2 JD: Lesson seven. So "the improvement approach depends on the stability of the system under study," and there's really two parts to this. But what approach am I going to take if the system is producing predictable results and it's performing pretty consistently, it's stable, there's only common cause variation. And then what happens if you have an unpredictable system? So two different approaches, depending on what type of system you're looking at in terms of stability. So you know the one thing to recognize in thinking about something like single factor experiments, it's a waste of time to explain noise or explain common cause variation in this stable system, because there's no simple single root cause for that type of variation. There's thousands or tens of thousands of variables that are impacting almost any metric. And you can't really isolate that down to a single cause. 0:12:17.5 JD: So instead we don't, we don't try to do that in a common cause system that needs improvement. Instead, if the results are unsatisfactory, what we do is work on improvements and changes to the system, right? We don't try to identify a single factor that's the problem. So what we do then is we work to improve a common cause processor system by working on the design of that actual system including inputs, throughputs that are a part of that. And to your point, you sort of have to, based on your content knowledge of that area, or maybe you have to bring in a subject matter expert and you sort of start to think about what's going to make the biggest difference. And then you start testing those things one at a time, basically. That's sort of the approach. And then if you're working in an unpredictable system and that unpredictable system is unpredictable because it has special causes in your data, then it's really a waste of time to try to improve that particular system until it's stable again. And so the way you do that is at that point, there is something so different about the special cause data that you try to identify that single cause or two of those data points. And then when you've identified, you study it, and then you try to remove that specific special cause. And if you've identified the right thing, what happens then is it becomes a stable system at that point, right? 0:13:51.9 AS: I was thinking that it's no sense in trying to race your boat if you've got a hole in it. You got to fix the special cause, the hole, and then focus on, okay, how do we improve the speed of this boat? 0:14:06.5 JD: And the key is recognizing the difference between these two roadmaps towards improvement. And I think in education for sure, there's a lot of confusion, a lot of wasted effort, because there's really no knowledge of this approach to data analysis. And so people do their own things. There's a mismatch between the type of variation that's present and the type of improvement effort that's trying to be undertaken. I think the most typical thing is there's a common cause system, and people think they can identify a single thing to improve. And then they spend a lot of time and money on that thing. And then it doesn't get better over time because it was the wrong approach in the first place. 0:14:55.9 AS: Number eight. 0:14:57.6 JD: Number eight. So, number eight is, "more timely data is better for improvement purposes." So we've talked about state testing data a lot. It's only available once per year. Results often come after students have gone on summer vacation. So, it's not super helpful. So, we really want more frequent data so that we can understand if some type of intervention that we're putting in place has an effect. I think what the most important thing is, the frequency of the data collection needs to be in sync with the improvement context. So, it's not always that you need daily data or weekly data or monthly data, or quarterly data, whatever it is. It's just it has to be in sync with the type of improvement context you're trying to bring about. And no matter what that frequency of collection, the other big thing to keep in mind is don't overreact to any single data point, which is, again, I see that over and over again in my work. I think ultimately the data allows us to understand the variation and the trends within our system, whether that system is stable or unstable, and then what type of improvement effort would be most effective. And, again, in my experience, just those simple things are almost never happening in schools. Probably in most sectors. 0:16:25.9 AS: Can you explain a little bit more about in sync with the improvement process? Like, maybe you have an example of that so people can understand. 0:16:34.2 JD: Well, yeah. So, you mean the frequency of data collection? 0:16:39.0 AS: Yeah. And you're saying, yeah, this idea of like, what would be out of sync? 0:16:44.7 JD: Well, one, you need to... A lot of times what happens is there might be a system in place for collecting some type of data. Let's say, like, attendance. They report attendance, student attendance on the annual school report card. So, you get that attendance rate, but that's like the state test scores. Like, it's not that helpful to get that on the report card after the year has concluded. But the data is actually available to us in our student information system. And so, we could actually pull that in a different frequency and chart it ourselves and not wait on the state testing date or the state attendance report card has attendance... 0:17:27.5 AS: Because attendance is happening on a daily basis. 0:17:31.0 JD: Happening on a daily basis. So, if we wanted to, daily would be pretty frequent, but if we did collect the data daily, we certainly can do that. We could see, that could help us see patterns in data on certain days of the week. That could be something that goes into our theory for why our attendance is lower than we'd want it to. You could do it weekly if the daily collection is too onerous on whoever's being tasked with doing that. I think weekly data pretty quickly, would take you 12 weeks. But in 12 weeks, you have a pretty good baseline of what attendance is looking like across this particular school year. So I think when you're talking about improvement efforts, I think something daily, something weekly, I think that's the target so that you can actually try some interventions along the way. And... 0:18:29.3 AS: And get feedback. 0:18:31.1 JD: And get feedback. Yeah, yeah. And you could also peg it to something that's further out. And you could see over time if those interventions that are impacting more short-term data collection are actually impacting stuff on the longer term as well. 0:18:49.1 AS: And I guess it depends also on what is the priority of this. Let's say that attendance is not a big issue at your particular school. Therefore, we look at it on a monthly basis and we look to see if something's significance happening. But otherwise, we've got to focus over on another idea. And if, if, if attendance becomes an issue, we may go back to daily and say, is it a particular day of the week? Or is it something, what can we learn from that data? 0:19:20.0 JD: Yep, that's exactly right. And then the next step would be in lesson nine, you then, and this is why the charts are so important, then you can clearly label the start date for an intervention directly on the chart. So, what you want to do is, once you've chosen an intervention or a change idea, you clearly mark that in your process behavior chart. I just use a dashed vertical line on the date the intervention is started and also put a simple label that captures the essence of that intervention. So, that's right on the chart. So, I can remember what I tried or started on that particular day. And then that allows the team to easily see, because you're going to continue adding your data points, the stuff that comes after the dotted line, it becomes pretty apparent based on the trends you're seeing in the data, if that intervention is then working, right? 0:20:21.2 JD: If it's attendance, I may try, I do a weekly call to parents to tell them what their individual child's attendance rate is. And then we can see once we started making those weekly calls over the next few weeks, does that seem to be having an impact on attendance rates? And then I can actually see too, we've talked about the patterns in the data, there's certain patterns I'm looking for to see if there's a significant enough change in that pattern to say, yeah, this is a signal that this thing is actually working. So, it's not just because it increased, that attendance rate could go up, but that in and of itself isn't enough. I want to see a signal. And by signal, I mean a specific pattern in the data, a point outside the limits. 0:21:17.3 JD: I want to see eight points in a row in the case of attendance above the central line or I want to see three out of four that are closer to a limit, the upper limit, than they are to that central line. And again, we've talked about this before, those patterns are so mathematically improbable that I can be pretty reasonably assured if you see them that an actual change has occurred in my data. And because I've drawn this dotted line, I can tie the time period of the change back within that dataset to determine if something positive happened after I tried that intervention. 0:21:56.7 AS: It's just, you just think about how many times, how many cycles of improvement and interventions that you can do in a system and how far you will be a year later. 0:22:12.3 JD: Yes, yeah. And "cycles" is exactly the right word because really what you're doing, I didn't mention it here, but really what you were doing at the point you draw that vertical line when you're going to run an intervention, you're going to do that through the PDSA cycle, the Plan-Do-Study-Act cycle. So that's your experiment where you're testing one thing to see what impact it has on the data. So if I was going to boil continual improvement per Dr. Deming down to two things is, put your data on a process behavior chart, combine it with a PDSA to see how to improve that data. And that's continual improvement in a nutshell, basically, those two tools. 0:22:51.7 AS: Gold, that's gold. All right. Number 10. 0:22:55.3 JD: Last one, lesson 10, "the purpose of data analysis is insight." So this comes from Dr. Donald Wheeler, but he basically just teaches us that the best analysis is the simplest analysis, which provides the needed insight. But what he would say is plot the dots first on a run chart. Once you have enough data, turn it into a process behavior chart. And that's the most straightforward method for understanding how our data is performing over time. And so this approach, I think it's much more intuitive than if we store the data in tables and then the patterns become much more apparent because we're using these time sequence charts. And again, I know I've said this before, but I keep repeating it because I think it's the essence of continual improvement to do those two things. Yeah. 0:23:47.1 AS: And what's the promise of this? If we can implement these 10 points that you've highlighted in relation to goal setting, what do you think is going to change for me? I mean, sometimes I look at what you've outlined and I feel a little bit overwhelmed, like, God, that's a lot of work. I mean, can I just set the freaking goal and people just do it? 0:24:13.2 JD: Yeah. Well, I think, this is, in essence, a better way. I mean, this is really the wrap up here is that, well, one, when you understand the variation in your chart, you actually understand the story, the true story that's being told by your data. And so many people don't understand the true story. They sort of make up, that's too strong, but they don't have the tools to see what's actually happening in their system. So if you really want to see what's happening in your system, this is the way to do it. That's one thing. I think it also... I tried many, many things before I discovered this approach, but I didn't have any way to determine if something I was trying was working or not. 0:25:07.1 JD: I didn't have any way to tie the intervention back to my data. So what most people then do is tell the story that this thing is working if you like it. And if you don't want to do it anymore, you tell the story that it's not working, but none of its actually tied to like scientific thinking where I tie the specific point I try something to my data. So that's another thing. I can actually tell if interventions are working or not or can have a... I always try to use, not use definitive language. Scientifically, I have a much better likelihood of knowing that an intervention is working or not. 0:25:47.7 JD: So I think especially the process behavior chart, I think, and the way of thinking that goes with the chart is probably the single most powerful tool that we can utilize to improve schools. And we can teach this to teachers. We can teach this to administrators. We can teach this to students, can learn how to do this. 0:26:07.1 AS: Yeah. And I think one of the things I was thinking about is start where you have data. 0:26:12.3 JD: Yeah. Start where you have data. 0:26:14.2 AS: Don't feel like you've got to go out there and go through a whole process of collecting all this data and all that. Start where you have data. And even if attendance is not your major issue, let's say, but you had good attendance data, it's a good way to start to learn. And I suspect that you're going to learn a lot as you start to dig deeper into that. And then that feeds into, I wonder if we could get data on this and that to understand better what's happening. 0:26:41.4 JD: There are so many applications, so many applications. I mean, even just today, we were talking about, we get a hundred percent of our students qualify for free and reduced lunch because we have a school-wide lunch or breakfast and lunch program. And so we get reimbursed for the number of meals that are distributed. And sometimes there's a mismatch between the number that are distributed and the number we order just because of attendance and transportation issues and things like that. But the federal government only reimburses us for the meals we actually distribute to kids. And so if we over order, we have to pay out of our general fund for those meals that we don't get reimbursed for. And so, I'm just bringing this up because we were looking at some of that data just today, that mismatch, and even an area as simple as that is ripe for an improvement project. 0:27:40.7 JD: Why is there a mismatch? What is happening? And prior, I would just say, prior to having this mindset, this philosophy, I would say, well, they just need to figure out how to get the numbers closer together. But you actually have to go there, watch what's happening, come up with a theory for why we're ordering more breakfasts and lunches than we're passing out. It could be super, super simple. No one ever told the person distributing the lunches that we get reimbursed this way. And so they didn't know it was a big deal. I don't know that that's the case or not right, that's purely speculation. Or it could be, oh, we want to make sure every kid eats so we significantly over order each day. Well, that's a good mindset, but maybe we could back that off to make sure we never... We're always going to have enough food for kids to eat, but we're also not going to spend lots of extra money paying for lunches that don't get eaten. So there's all different things, even something like that operationally is ripe for improvement project. And the great thing is, is if you can study that problem and figure out how to save that money, which could by the end of the year, you know, be thousands of dollars, you could reallocate that to field trips or class supplies or to books for the library or art supplies, whatever, you know? So that's why I think this methodology is so powerful. 0:29:02.1 AS: Fantastic. That's a great breakdown of these 10 points. So John, on behalf of everyone at the Deming Institute, I want to thank you again for this discussion and for listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. And you can find John's book, Win-Win, W. Edwards Deming, The System of Profound Knowledge and the Science of Improving Schools on Amazon.com. This is your host, Andrew Stotz. And I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming, "People are entitled to joy in work."

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[Webinar] Developing Coaching Skills: Mine, Yours, Ours with Tracy Defoe

KaiNexus Continuous Improvement Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 21, 2024 59:57

Video, slides, and more Presented by Tracy Defoe How do you develop coaching skills in yourself and others? Why would you want to? Everyone who manages people is asked to coach. Most of us think we are good at it. If you were lucky enough to learn how to develop and coach people because you were coached well from the start of your career, you are unusual. Most of us have to learn a new, quiet way of working with people to coach and develop them. Join kata coach Tracy Defoe for her ideas on developing coaching skills the Toyota Kata way, based on years of personal and group experiential learning experiments. This webinar is a preview of a deep dive Tracy is facilitating at the upcoming Kata Summit, KataCon10, coming up in April 2024. Tracy Defoe is an adult educator specializing in learning at work. About ten years ago she started coaching to develop a scientific mindset in people improving their processes at work using the Improvement and Coaching Kata detailed in Mike Rother's Toyota Kata books. She is a cofounder of the global women's group Kata Girl Geeks, cofounder of Kata School Cascadia, and a facilitator with Tilo Schwarz's Kata Coaching Dojo Masterclass.

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[Webinar Preview] Developing Coaching Skills: Mine, Yours, Ours - with Tracy Defoe

KaiNexus Continuous Improvement Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 12, 2024 9:19

To be presented March 21 from 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm ET This is a quick preview where host Mark Graban, a senior advisor with KaiNexus, chats with webinar presenter Tracy Defoe. Registration Link Webinar Description: How do you develop coaching skills in yourself and others? Why would you want to? Everyone who manages people is asked to coach. Most of us think we are good at it. If you were lucky enough to learn how to develop and coach people because you were coached well from the start of your career, you are unusual. Most of us have to learn a new, quiet way of working with people to coach and develop them. Join kata coach Tracy Defoe for her ideas on developing coaching skills the Toyota Kata way, based on years of personal and group experiential learning experiments. This webinar is a preview of a deep dive Tracy is facilitating at the upcoming Kata Summit, KataCon10, coming up in April 2024. Tracy Defoe is an adult educator specializing in learning at work. About ten years ago she started coaching to develop a scientific mindset in people improving their processes at work using the Improvement and Coaching Kata detailed in Mike Rother's Toyota Kata books. She is a cofounder of the global women's group Kata Girl Geeks, cofounder of Kata School Cascadia, and a facilitator with Tilo Schwarz's Kata Coaching Dojo Masterclass.

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148: Oscar Roche

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 12, 2024 20:56

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.Transcript: Agile F M radio for the agile community. Thank you for joining me again for another podcast episode of Agile FM in the Agile Kata series. Today I have Oscar Roche with me, who is based out in Australia. That's where we're recording from. And he is with the training within industry TWI and the visual workplace. He was actually told by a person called Mike Esposito from the historic construction That he makes philosophy and principles consumable.And we got to talk about Kata. I hope I got that quote we're going to talk about Kata in this episode. We're going to talk a little bit about some scientific thinking. We'll talk about where Oscar is coming from. He is a well known figure in the Kata community. And but before we do that, I want to welcome you to the podcast.[00:00:56] Oscar Roche: Thank you. Thanks, Joe. Happy to be here. Even at this time of day, 7 a. m. [00:01:02] Joe Krebs: So the voice needs to be oiled a little bit in the morning hours to get into into the podcast feel. Thanks for joining. And obviously you're in the Kata series here a few things you're very obviously with that statement we just heard about you You make this consumable.You are, you're thinking about, how could you take these practices that are surrounding Kata and turning them into something that is useful for your clients, for the people you work with, obviously. But you're also a little concerned about Kata community and, there is an article you we were exchanging ideas about by I forgot his Stephen Spears and Bowen in the Harvard Business Review from 1999.And and that puts a little light spotlight on, on Kata indirectly through the, how Kata influences the world of Toyota, but people out there in the community see Kata and scientific thinking and the way of how. Toyota Works is very different, right? . [00:02:00] Oscar Roche: Yeah, they do. I don't think that connection has been, I don't think we, we as in our world has made that connection very strong.I think one of the problems we run into is that people say we don't make cars or we're not Toyota. We're not a big corporation and all we don't make cars. So I think that's one of the problems, but I guess. In terms of that Spear and Bowen article, it was, I read that probably in 2018 or 2019 And I was introduced to Kata in 2011, and it was only when I read that article, I thought, ah, this is what. This is what we're getting at. This is what we're trying to get at with Kata. And what that article said was the Spear and Bowen article, one of the things it said was that Toyota aims It said two things that made the penny drop with me.One was it says Toyota aims to develop a community of scientists, and I thought, ah, that's interesting. And the second thing it says was that Toyota views every standard as a hypothesis. In other words, even their production standards are hypothetical. If we do this, we expect that. But we need to run it and see what happens.So every, in essence, every production run is an experiment. And I thought, wow, that is a very interesting way of looking at the world. And that's what Mike Rother's getting at. That's where he wants us to be. He doesn't want us, he doesn't want us to be at Kata. Kata is, the Kata patterns are just a means of getting to this utopian world.Every standard is a hypothesis and we're a community of scientists. Yeah. And that was when the penny dropped. I thought, ah, it took seven years, or whatever that was, six years. [00:03:57] Joe Krebs: But I got there. Yeah, [00:03:59] Oscar Roche: what's interesting is actually, I think I got there. I think I got there. I'll find out. [00:04:05] Joe Krebs: Yeah, exactly. What's interesting is when you look at Toyota, I don't have any insights into hands on employee experience or anything, but if you look at Toyota, yeah, but if you look at the production facilities of Any kind of carmaker let's not even say Toyota, right?Any carmaker, let's see some like some construction belt and the products are moving by, but the company, what and how they think, especially about Toyota is very different. [00:04:34] Oscar Roche: Very different. And I think it, the other thing that attracted me to that thought in the Spear and Barron article was how liberating that is.Yeah. If you could adopt that philosophy of every time we run production, it's an experiment, then I think you started to, you start to move away from right versus wrong, blame versus not blame and all those sort of things that go with, we are going to run this and we are going to get it right because this is the way we do things.I think you start to move away. I think you would change. You would completely. With that philosophy, that thinking, I think there's a very good chance you completely change the the work environment, if you like, it becomes, we're going to try this and see what happens. And if it doesn't work out as we expect, then we know how we're going to think when that happens.[00:05:26] Joe Krebs: Yeah. But in that article, they also talking a lot about that there is an absolute detail and emphasis on, let's say documentation in general, it's like about the core production process where. Seats go. And so there's a lot of detail, but the detail is actually evolving over time. So there's absolutely constantly being challenged.And I think some [00:05:47] Oscar Roche: because it's a hypothesis because the data is a hypothesis. That's why it's being challenged. [00:05:53] Joe Krebs: Yeah. And what we see in organization is when an organization is that these handbooks and these processes are, they're just staying [00:06:00] Oscar Roche: and they get stuck [00:06:01] Joe Krebs: and they get stuck and they don't challenge those procedures.[00:06:06] Oscar Roche: No. And the worst thing is they end up on the shelf. [00:06:08] Joe Krebs: Yeah. Yeah. So what also is in this article, I want to hear your take on this is there's also a mention on that what you would be observing, obviously, they have studied this for several years. There's no command and control. So if you would look at the production facilities and you look at it.It feels, it might look like command and control, somebody's being told what to do, but it's not, right? It's not. There's a different system in place. What's your take on that and especially this style of leadership compared or in contrast to scientific thinking and possibly Kata? Good[00:06:47] Oscar Roche: question.So my take on this on that is it would be something that's extremely hard to develop. No, I don't know that it's hard to develop, but it's going to take time. And one of the point, if you got everyone thinking this way, everyone thinking as a, we've developed this community of scientists. So we're all thinking that way.And every standard is hypothesis. Then you're in it. You're in a point. And management is thinking that way, then you're at a point where it can work, but getting to there, there's going to be, I think one of the troubles we run into is, we recognize that's what Toyota started is doing now or in 1999, but when did they start trying to do this?About 1952. Yeah. So we, about in 2019, with the Institute, a group of us went to Japan and we spent time with Mr. Isao Kato, who was Ono's HR advisor, and he gave us a timeline of when they started to when they started to, On this journey, and I hate that word when they started on their journey to where they are now, and it was not, it was, I'm pretty sure, if I remember rightly, it was 1952, it was 51, 52, 53.We've got to also remember that's for, when Speer and Bowen did that article in 1999, let's say there's 47 years of this stuff evolving when they, for them to be able to get to that point. The problem we run into is, and it's a very valid point, that no other organization has 47 years to get to that point.But, so therefore, I think we've got to, we've got to look at how they might have got there, or what we think we can do to accelerate. Exercise of that process for one of a better word of getting there and one of the things we can do is practice is use things like the Kata patterns to help develop these behaviors and these way of thinking.So get back to your question. If everyone's thinking that way, then it just happens. Yeah, but how, but when some are and some aren't. Then it's difficult. And if management aren't forget it. Yeah. [00:09:04] Joe Krebs: That's obviously the challenges with many transformations out there now you're very you're making a strong comment when you when we were exchanging ideas, a little bit of what we could talk about and you have a very strong comment.Yeah. Opinion about Kata being seen as nowadays with the gaining popularity people started talking more about, about it. Maybe more and more people are trying it. My goal with this podcast is obviously to bring Kata closer to the agile community. But what's interesting is that you see the Kata is wrongly seen as really frustrating for you as the goal rather than the start.Of that journey. I think we're talking about why. What's your warning to people out there? I agree with you. Obviously, Kata is the starting point. But what's your recommendation for people out there that are trying to experiment with Kata in terms of the mindset, how to approach this? [00:10:03] Oscar Roche: Yeah, sure. So I think, and it's evolved in the conversation we had before this podcast started, I think one of the we try and explain the, we try and explain the world that Kata can take you to, to people but how can you explain something that can't be seen?It's a little bit of a problem. So perhaps what we need to understand is what are we moving away from? Because we can see that now. So what we're moving away from is random actions, pulling things out of the air, acting on whim, illogical actions, if you like. So I guess an approach might be, to what extent are we randomly thinking now?To what extent are we heading here, heading there, depending on what manager walks in the room or, what person of authority or what person with a strong personality? To what extent are we doing that? Because if we would go down this track of practicing or using Dakata patterns, we're going to be moving away from that, and that's not fun.Random thinking creates waste, random thinking creates frustration, random thinking creates a lot of things that aren't good for engagement at a workplace. Yeah. So perhaps rather than try and describe Where we want to get to, let's try and describe where we want to, what we want to get away from.That might be more because we can feel where we are now. It's hard to sense, it's hard to sense something that's a year away. Yeah. Perhaps that might be a worthwhile thing to consider. [00:11:37] Joe Krebs: And that target out there, like 12 months from now, that's a moving target even more right?[00:11:43] Oscar Roche: Correct. It is. But where we want to be is not thinking randomly, not acting on whims. Not being pressured into doing something because someone forceful has walked in the room or a senior manager has said, do this. We want to get away from that. Yeah. But that does, the, you mentioned Mike Esposito before he's a he works with, or he's a part owner in Story Construction in Iowa, in Ames, Iowa.And he, I do, they're my favorite client, and I'll tell a lot of people that, and the reason for that is because he and a fellow owner who's the chief operating officer, Pat Geary, they have a very clear vision of where they want to be, and it's not that far off that 99, that 1999 article by Spear and Bowen but they have that long term view.And they know there's going to be setbacks and they know there's going to be frustrations and they know they're going to make mistakes. Yeah. And they do. But they, when they do, mistakes are only mistakes in hindsight. They're not mistakes beforehand, they're mistakes in hindsight. So when it happens they learn from those and they adjust so they've got the mindset.They've got the, those two guys have, and Pat in particular, has the mindset that will get that organization to where they want it to be. Yeah. Unfortunately. That mindset in that level of leadership, I find to be extremely rare. Yeah because you need to have a long term view, not a one year view, or even a two or three year view.a bit longer than that. It's very interesting, right? In the agile community, I often hear the separation between agile ways of working and an agile mindset. And I think what you are, what you're describing here is the Kata is the. Not even the ways of working, it's the ways of getting started, right?It's the ways of getting started, whereas the scientific thinking or the non random thinking is the mindset if you want to establish over time. And that is obviously something the Kharak can kick start us with, but eventually our own Habits are taking over, still in the scientific thinking mode, but it's like it will change, it will move, it will transform into something else that doesn't look like the Kata and necessarily anymore that we started with.So we want to leave that behind, but it's the starting point for that journey. And I think that's what you're pointing out wrong. No, you are right. So as I was thinking as you were speaking, so Kata is the way we start to develop a way of thinking. If we think that way enough, that'll become our way of working.And I think, I suspect, I'll never know, I suspect that's what's happened to Toyota. Yes. The problem is that people who work at Toyota now can never explain that. There's no chance they're ever going to be explaining it because they just, it just is the way we are. But we have a Toyota guy who works for us and does mentoring in Melbourne.He left Toyota in 2011 and he poohoos Kata. Yeah. Directly poohoos it. But I've watched the way he works and he works exactly the way that Kata is intended for him to work down the track. So I watch the way he works, I watch the way he think, I watch, I listen to what he says and he acts and works that way.Yeah. Because he, naturally, because he can't recognize how he's got there because he's, he just, it's just the way they are. Yeah. Interesting. That's truly. Yeah. Why would you need Kata to do this? You just do it. Yeah. [00:15:23] Joe Krebs: Says you. Who has been doing this for a while. [00:15:27] Oscar Roche: Exactly. Says you. But what about everyone else who is the majority of us?How are we going to get there? Yeah. [00:15:34] Joe Krebs: Toyota also has a commitment to learning continuously. There are various aspects of learning going on. How do you manage those expectations when you do work with leaders? [00:15:46] Oscar Roche: How that fits is that scientific thinking itself is learning. So I'm looking at a definition of scientific thinking I have on my screen here and it says it's a continuous, this has come from Mike, it's a continuous comparison between what we predict will happen next, seeing what actually happens, and adjusting our understanding and actions based on what we learn from any difference.So if we're thinking this way, We can't help but learn, because we're going to adjust our understanding and actions based on what we learn from a difference. Learning, we don't have to. Learning is not the goal. Adjusting our understanding and actions based on what we see from a difference will mean that we learn.[00:16:31] Joe Krebs: That's the verification I wanted to hear from you. Exactly. It's an ongoing, it's an ongoing process. It's built in. It's part of, PDCA. [00:16:41] Oscar Roche: Exactly. Yeah. It will, it just is. If we think this way, we will learn. We can't help but learn. Yeah, [00:16:49] Joe Krebs: but it's on the job learning, right?It's not a, it's not a theoretical kind of classroom experience or program that extensive program people are going through and learning about these things. This is very hands on. It starts on day one. [00:17:03] Oscar Roche: Exactly. And I think also it almost requires two views or two mindsets at the same time.One is I'm doing this work. The other is, I'm looking at this work from the outside, so I think that's difficult. I'm going to do two things. I'm going to do the work as per the standard, the way we do it today, but I'm also going to look at the way I do the work to see if I can, to see if what we predict is going to happen happens, and if it doesn't, then we've got to work on the difference and learn from that and make adjustments.So that's where, I think that gets a bit hard too, to do two things. One is do the work. In other words, we're inside it and the other is look at the work from the outside as I do it and question it. That takes time and energy and all the rest of it. That's not easy.It's not hard if you practice a pattern, yes but that energy of to practice that pattern takes a bit, it takes a little bit of amount. It's, it's a tough one to climb. [00:18:01] Joe Krebs: So I just want to map this to some folks that are listening, maybe from an agile angle that learning would be some learning that we in, in, in processes such as scrum or extreme programming and so on, have experience in retrospectives where internal learning that's taking place.I want to ask you a last question here while I have you. Is somebody is listening to this podcast right now, likes what you're saying wants to get started with Kata. Like it's a very practical I want to use the Kata to get started with that kind of thinking Like very practical.What would be like a very first step? Just a realistic step. We know it's a longer journey for people with longer term vision, right? Of where to take a company or a product or a team. But what would be for you, like something to start with? What would you suggest to somebody listening to this and says, I want to experiment with the approach maybe even, [00:18:56] Oscar Roche: it's a fine line between reading too many books and just having a crack. Yeah. I think and different people are different. Some people need to read a book or two before they're going to before they're going to jump in. And the original, the original 2009 Toyota Kata book is not a bad place to start.I think there's been some that have evolved since that have made it more complex than perhaps it need to be, I've spoke to Mike about the practice guide and the practice guide is written from an engineer's perspective with an engineering view and it goes in quite deep. I would imagine that to be a lot of people, non engineers, non manufacturing people would be quite frightened about that.It's, the reason I'm stalling a little bit on the answer is it just depends. It depends on the person how they best get started. Do they just need to know enough about the improvement model to be able and some guidelines to get it started? Is that a 10 minute conversation? Some yes, some they need to read a book.I'm happy to be contacted. I think actually, I think. The way I always approach this is I need to understand the individual and the organization before we say, do this, because this might help. Yeah, [00:20:10] Joe Krebs: Makes total sense. And, there's also conferences out there, they can attend.Training courses they can attend. There is a hands on workshops they can attend. There's a variety of learning tools available et cetera, just to start with their journey and obviously practicing kata and picking up a book might be another option to just get started. [00:20:32] Oscar Roche: I don't want to give people the impression of do this and it'll work for you. [00:20:37] Joe Krebs: Absolutely not. Yes. But what I'm trying to say is there's a bunch of resources. Oscar. Thank you so much for joining this podcast and sharing your thoughts.[00:20:45] Oscar Roche: I hope it's a value to the people who listen.

146: Mark Rosenthal

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 27, 2024 24:25

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.Transcript: Agile.FM radio for the agile community. [00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Thank you again for tuning into another episode of Agile FM. This is the Agile Kata series. And today we're going to explore Kata from a leadership's perspective. And I have here with me Mark Rosenthal who is with Novayama that is his company. He's out of the West coast, United States, and we're going to explore a little bit together, leadership in conjunction with Kata, which is Series all about.We're gonna explore that angle a little bit. Welcome to the show, mark. [00:00:40] Mark Rosenthal: Thank you very much. It's looking forward to the opportunity. [00:00:43] Joe Krebs: Yeah, this is awesome. I wanna go back in time with you and talk a little bit about an employment you had where you worked from home. [00:00:52] Mark Rosenthal: Oh, yeah. . [00:00:53] Joe Krebs: You didn't get a lot of phone calls until you got one.[00:00:56] Mark Rosenthal: Yeah. [00:00:57] Joe Krebs: And that was the one you got terminated. [00:01:00] Mark Rosenthal: Yeah. Bu Yeah. [00:01:01] Joe Krebs: But the interesting thing is you in your reflection, you had a, let's say a moment of realizing a lack of leadership skills. [00:01:14] Mark Rosenthal: Yes. And yeah, and really that was, and this is even better because this is really the kind of leadership that most conduct practitioners have to engage in, which is influence.You don't have formal authority you rather, you've got to, you have to find a way to influence the lead, the line leaders in the organization to be effective. And this is true for lots of cases. It's true whenever I'm bringing groups of people together that I can't tell what to do. And actually it's more true that you think even in the military, which is where I learned leadership.And it really was that. We tend to do, we practitioners tend to engage with the technical artifacts, and we put in the tools, we put in the mechanics, and we don't, and then we complain when the line leadership doesn't embrace the changes. And that is on us because if you look at a traditional Kaizen event approach, for example, in the world of, you know, of CI, but this would be equally true for somebody trying to get scrum in place or somebody trying to cause any change in the way the organization does business.I can describe the mechanics of the daily standup perfectly. I can describe, I can get all the scheduling. I can get the artifacts into place.If there isn't a engagement of the conversation about how we do it on a daily basis too, then it's going to fall apart as soon as that that, that goes away in the situation you're describing. I mean, it was even worse in a way, just because of the nature. It was an international organization and it didn't really matter where I worked, so I didn't work anywhere.Although I got a lot of frequent flyer miles. You know, going to Europe once a month, going all kinds of places. But what I was doing was making technical recommendations. And then, you know, they weren't getting picked up. And frankly, I wasn't earning my money. Yeah. And the key here for a change agent.Is it's not about the tools you're putting into place, the tools are there to create the kinds of conversations that need to happen in the organization between the leaders and between people, between groups of people. And once I understood that, then the paradigm changes completely because the experiments I run are testing whether or not I'm effective at moving the needle.About how these conversations are taking place. And that's kind of what I was talking about in the, you know, in the story that you're alluding to. [00:04:20] Joe Krebs: Yeah. So this is a life changing event for you, but also in your career, right? You had a lot of learnings coming out of this. [00:04:27] Mark Rosenthal: A lot of them, and they came later on.You know, I had, I was familiar with Toyota Kata at the time. But I was still in the position of trying to make people do it, and I can't do that. What I have to do is look at the dynamics in the organization and think in terms of it's not the mechanics of standing up a storyboard and getting them to go through the starter kata of grasping the current condition and all of that.It's about what actions what small experiment can I run? That I think that I hypothesize will nudge the conversation into, for example, talking about something a little more concrete than we had a good day or a bad day, which moves them toward measuring how they're doing, you know, in that example, that particular organization really had disdain for numbers because they made people look bad.So they didn't talk about them. I mean, they had them on displays, but nobody ever talked about them and the numbers they had on displays were lagging indicators. Yeah. It's interesting because you said like the words, if I remember correctly, like you said, like moving the needle, and I think that's also important from a leadership perspective, are we just in the operations mode of tools and features and keeping those alive or are we disrupting them?Yeah. Absolutely. Certain ways of working within the organization as a leader. Yeah, and you're going to be disrupting, you know, that's the whole point in a way. So when I want to begin to shift things I want to do is engage in the smallest change I can that's going to move things. And I'm going to try to do is to incorporate that change into something they're already doing.So in this example, there was already a daily production meeting. So rather than saying, we're going to have another meeting about improvement, rather than saying, you got to stop doing that way and start doing it this way, I can hook part of my agenda into the existing structure. So as a change agent, I want to look at what are they already doing?And can I grab any of that and just modify it in a way? That moves the conversation in the direction it needs to go. [00:06:58] Joe Krebs: Yeah, This is interesting, right? There's two things I would like to talk about, and I'm not sure which one should be first or not. I'll just take one and get started.Maybe it's the wrong order, but. We just went through a, or just two years ago, we somewhat ended the pandemic and we started going back to work. And your experience obviously from work from home was prior to to the pandemic. Now you had some learnings in terms of leadership and we see a lot of companies that are bringing the people back to work sometimes mandatory.And sometimes it's the leadership team that just feels like very strongly about that. So I want to just include that in terms of, it's very impressive right now. There's a lot of companies still work in that kind of dual mode or came back full time back on premises. What advice do you have based on your learning for leaders when you work this way?I don't know if you'd have any, but I'll just put you on the spot.[00:07:58] Mark Rosenthal: You know, that's a good one. You know, you're going to encounter resistance, but you know, this is a quote from Ron Heifetz out of Harvard, who Talks about this thing called adaptive leadership, which really is applying PDCA to leadership. And that's why I like it so much, because it follows the Kata pattern of grasp the current condition, make a, you know, make a judgment where you want to go next and run experiments to try to get there.And he said, and I love this, people don't resist change. People resist loss. Nobody gives back a winning lottery ticket. And so the people who are. are used to working with the cat on their lap and having be able to respond to their kids and all the awesome things that come from the ability to work from home are losing that connection that they have developed with their family.So that's what they're resisting. Typically, you know, I can't speak for everybody, but what's, you know, the flip side is what's the boss, what did the company lose when the people didn't come to the office? And that was the informal interaction that drives the actual conversation that gets stuff done.Yeah. And so that's what I didn't have, right? You know, we didn't have, I don't even think we didn't have video. We didn't, you know, I mean, this was a while ago. I think, you know, Skype was cutting edge stuff, right? [00:09:31] Joe Krebs: Hard to imagine, right? [00:09:32] Mark Rosenthal: Yeah yeah. You know, if I were to go back to the same situation, I would be having a lot more scheduled online sessions.With not just individuals, but with groups of people sharing their experiences with, in my case, with continuous improvement and what they're doing so that I didn't need to be there all the time, but I could work on keeping the conversation and the buzz going and get a better read for the organization.[00:10:09] Joe Krebs: Yeah. You mentioned that I've heard you say things like that leadership is a typical leadership. Yeah. What is authority. And then sometimes you do see that when you go back to, to work in, you know, in work environments where you're being asked and forced to come back to work versus adaptive leaderships, taking a different approach to something like that.But another quote you said, and maybe that's the other angle I wanted to ask you. . Is I heard you say a phrase that leadership is an activity, not a role. [00:10:40] Mark Rosenthal: And that's again, I want to make credit where credit is due. That's right out of, you know, Ron Heifetz work and a lot of it is taught at a place called the Kansas Leadership Center in Wichita.And so I want to make sure I'm giving credit where credit is due. . So in, there are, you know, there are cases where authority is a good thing. There are cases where you have to get something done fast. The building is on fire, evacuate immediately, not, hey, what do you think we should do?But even when there is formal authority, it's far more effective to use leadership as a role with the goal of developing other leaders. And, you know, this is if you know, are familiar with the work of David Marquet and his book, Turn the Ship Around on the submarine, you know, he, as the captain of the submarine had absolute authority.Yeah. And. And I read that book. I'm a former military officer. I was in the Army. Okay. We didn't get it. I did not go on a boat that was designed to sink. But you know, at the end of the story, he tells a story of, he. interprets a situation incorrectly, and he gives an order that was incorrect at the end of the story, and he is countermanded on the bridge with no captain, you're wrong, from the lowest ranking sailor on the bridge.Who countermanded an order from the captain of the ship. Yeah. And all it did was cause him to look back, reassess, and realize that this 22 year old kid was right. And that's what we want, right? Yeah. We want people to tell us if we're making a mistake. [00:12:29] Joe Krebs: Yeah, that's a key lesson. I remember this by listening, I listened to that particular book, which is also very eyeopening.Now, seeing a leadership like this, we see adaptive leadership. But it's obviously something you are embracing. There's a lot of books out there about leadership. That's a massive amount of books. And people could go wild, but you know, many of those are personal stories about what that person has embraced and you might find something very useful here now in certain areas of those books, but you might not 100 percent apply to your own.Yeah. That might leave the reader with, how would I approach this problem with all that wisdom that is out there and how do you combine and this is where I want to go with you here now in terms of leadership is how can the Agile Kata, the Kata, the improvement Kata, coaching Kata, how can the Kata ways of working scientific thinking.Help support leaders who are like, I want to create an environment like that. I want to have adaptive leadership. How can Kata help me with this? [00:13:37] Mark Rosenthal: Great point, because you know, all those books are those, as you pointed out, those people's personal stories. And it's interesting because all the, all of the stories about success have survivor bias.Built in and we don't, you know, they're in, in, in lean world, there's a commonly bandied about number that 85, 90 percent of all attempts to put it in the place fail. We read about the ones that are successful, but what we don't know is that the ones that failed probably followed the same formula.And it only works five or 10 percent of the time. That's really the story here. So what you, there isn't a cookbook and what you got to do is first understand the culture you're trying to build. Because if you don't have that in your mind deliberately, you're going to end up going wherever. But then.You've got to grasp your own situation in your own organization and then set that next target condition using Kata terms of, okay, I'm not going to try to get there all at once, but what's the one major thing I'm going to try to get in if I'm trying to change the change away and organization runs probably on a 90 day window.You know, if we're in industry or Kata, we set a target condition of a couple of weeks and no more than that. But, you know, these are bigger things. So where do I want to be at the end of the quarter? Where do I want to be, you know, in three months? And then that narrows my focus. And then I can just start working on that.And maybe it's just I'm going to, I'm going to get the staff meeting working. more effectively so that we're not trying to solve problems in the meeting. We're just talking about the status of problem solving. That's just a hypothetical example, but that was one place I try to take people for example.Yeah. And I was work on that. [00:15:45] Joe Krebs: So you work with leaders through. Coaching cycles. You coach them going through the four steps of the improvement Kata. And you help them to, as you say, move the needle. Towards more adaptive leadership. [00:16:04] Mark Rosenthal: And this is using adaptive leadership really to do it, right?So it's a meta thing in a way. And when I'm, you know, I'm really talking to the change agents out there, you know, the, and in, in the agile world, you know, the scrum master is a staff person who's the holder of the torch of what this is supposed to look like. So this is what. They can do us to work, you know, to say, okay, I know it's not perfect right now.What's the one thing I'm going to emphasize over the next 90 days to get it better? And maybe it's, you know, I'm just going to get the stand up to be less than 15 minutes. Okay. I just got to get people to just, you know, this is what they talk about. And then they pass the torch to the next person, for example, or the next pair in that case.[00:17:01] Joe Krebs: You are, I think by looking through your material a little bit and seeing where you're coming from, you're using a tremendous amount of powerful questions. Can you, again, I'm sorry to put you on the spot, but can you give possibly some like a, like an outline of how. What kind of questions you would be throwing so to make it a little bit more concrete.. We weren't listening to this like a leader or somebody who's receiving some form of coaching from you. And then what kind of questions it's powerful stuff. [00:17:38] Mark Rosenthal: . So the coaching Kata just to some background here and what Toyota Kata is just so that we got on topic is.What Mike Rother essentially did, and this isn't 100 percent accurate, but this is the effect, is he parsed a lot of the coaching conversations that were happening, you know, with leaders and learners at Toyota. And those conversations often are around A3, for example, which is just a piece of paper. And often it's just sounds like a conversation.But there were elements of the questioning that was, that were always present. And the way I describe it is he boiled all that down and was left at the bottom of the pot was the structure of questions that he published as the Improvement Kata. So I'm going to ask first, I'm going to go off the script first.What is your target condition? So I want to hear is where you're trying to go in the short term. And what will be in place when you get there? What is the actual condition now in between the two I'm really looking for is what's the gap you're trying to close between where things are now and where you're trying to go in that short term.Then we're going to reflect on the last step you took because you committed to take that step the last time we talked. So what did you plan as your last step? What did you expect? Because there was a hypothesis that if I do this, then I'll learn that, or this will happen. And what actually happened, And what did you learn?Then I'm going to ask, okay, what obstacles are now, do you think are now preventing you from reaching your target condition? And so really that's Mike chose the word obstacle because the word problem in the West is really loaded. Okay. Because a problem to a lot of people in industry is something I don't want the boss to find out.You know, another company I work for, I called them barriers, but it was before Kata was written. But if I go back and look at my stuff, this is basically the same structure. And that's just an enumeration of what person, the problem solver, the learner thinks are the problems. And as a coach, that's kind of telling me what they think right there, right?I'm beginning to see what they see because they're telling me, which one are we addressing now? It's important to address one problem at a time. And then based on that, and in being informed by the last step you took. What are you planning as your next step and what do you expect? So that's kind of the script going off script often just means asking calibrated follow on questions to get the information that I didn't get from the primary question.This is where, you know, if you're talking to Tilo Schwartz, he's got a lot of structure around that, which is really a contribution to the community. [00:20:51] Joe Krebs: Yeah, but your questions are not yes, no answers or status related, even the follow ups are investigative, kind of like bringing things to surface for the learner, not for you to receive a status.[00:21:07] Mark Rosenthal: What I'm looking for is, again, Toyota Kata jargon, their threshold of knowledge, the point at which, okay, the next step is probably learn about that. And there are times when, you know, even before we get to all the questions, if we encounter that threshold of knowledge, okay, great. We need to learn that.What's the next step in order to learn more about that? [00:21:32] Joe Krebs: Mark, this is this is really good. I was just like listening to Katie Anderson's book, and it was funny that you say problem in the Western world, not a very popular word and she makes tons of references in her book about. No problem. is a problem.[00:21:50] Mark Rosenthal: That's, yeah. That's the Toyota mantra. That's the Toyota mantra. [00:21:54] Joe Krebs: And yeah. So whatever you want to call it, you want to overcome it. If it's an obstacle, an impediment, or if it's a problem you want to overcome. [00:22:02] Mark Rosenthal: And that's a really good point about the culture. And I'm going to quote my friend, Rich Sheridan here, you know, fear does not make problems go away.Fear drives problems into hiding. Yeah. And we encounter that a lot where I go into a culture where everybody has to have the answers or everything needs to look good. And so asking them, what problems are you trying to solve here can be problematic. And so that's where the adaptive leadership part comes in, okay, I'm going to have to overcome the obstacle of that cultural hesitancy and find a way to help them get a shared sense of the truth. That they can talk to rather than talking to each other. And again, if I go into, you know, the, like the extreme programming world where I've got the cards on the wall, for example that is that shared sense of the truth. I can walk in and I can tell which pairs are working on which things and whether they're a hit or behind very quickly without having to ask anyone and there's nothing concealed is fully transparent.We go into industry, the purpose of the visual controls, the purpose of the status boards, the purpose of the Andon lights, the purpose of all of the lean tools, all of them is to put the truth of what's actually happening out there as compared to what should be happening so that we have an invitation to deal with it.[00:23:43] Joe Krebs: But they're tools. [00:23:45] Mark Rosenthal: But they're, but that's all the tools are, that's what they're for. Yeah. [00:23:50] Joe Krebs: That is great. Mark, I want to thank you for spending some time here talking from a leadership's perspective to the Agile FM audience and in particular in the Kata series to explore Kata and how Kata can influence.leadership and what you can do to embrace adaptive leadership while performing scientific thinking as a leader. And obviously your personal stories as well. So thank you, Mark. [00:24:14] Mark Rosenthal: Sure thing. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

united states fear europe coaching west western army harvard built series skype talks toyota wichita kaizen a3 ship around david marquet pdca katie anderson rich sheridan andon toyota kata mark rosenthal kansas leadership center

144: Tilo Schwarz

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 13, 2024 36:39

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.Transcript: Agile F M radio for the agile community. [00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Thank you for tuning in to another episode here of Agile.FM. Today I have Tilo Schwarz with me, and we will be exploring in the Agile Kata series, which we are in, and Tilo is joining. We're going to explore the topic of Coaching, Kata coaching, to be more specific, before we get started, everybody should know that Tilo is the author of two books, the Toyota Kata Memory Jogger, released in 2018 and recently is in summer 2023, giving wings to her team that was in 2023.And that is a novel about coaching and Kata, welcome to the show, Tilo. [00:00:49] Tilo Schwarz: Joe, it's a pleasure to be here with you again. Awesome. [00:00:52] Joe Krebs: Awesome. Yeah. We want to talk and emphasize and focus a little bit on, on coaching and Kata in this episode, the other elements of the Kata series here on my podcast, they go into different kinds of corners, but for everybody listening today is all about coaching.All about Kata and coaching. So my first question is really there are two Kata. If somebody is reading about Toyota Kata, that's the improvement and coaching Kata. Can you do improvement without a coach and without a coaching kata? [00:01:25] Tilo Schwarz: Good question, Joe. Sure you can. I mean, many of us probably do, like at least once in a while, I mean, you know, something annoys you like your cable on your desk when you're moving the mouse.And so we push the cable out of the way fix it with some sticky tape to hold in place. And of course, also you could hire an expert, you know, like consultant coming in to implement some improvements for you for both. You don't need a coach. You know? I mean, the issue here of course is that these kind of improvements starting with bumping into some waste.And not necessarily return relevant improvement, right? I mean, for the investment, we're making time, ingenuity, budget, and so on. So basically that's why maybe waste walks, 5S audits, postmortems, that kind of thing might not be such a good starting point for improvement because the improvement just tends to be for improvement's sake, you know, where we bring up some ideas, they turn into long task lists and then array of projects.And at the end it might be very arbitrary and effects are random, right? So in a way you could say, back to your question, I mean, before coaching improvement should start with setting goals, right? So where are we what is it we want to achieve? Yeah but the cutter, they are separated from each other, right?So we can do improvement without the coaching cutter and that would be something a lot of people experience, let's say at the beginning of a year when they have their New Year's resolution. So I'm just going to work on this by myself. The track record is very known. for that. So why do we need coaching to get improvement?So building on that now, so imagining that we have set, you know, what do you say your new year's resolutions or in a business context striving for a challenging goal. Now at some point. And we'll enter the unknown zone. So I mean, that's the point where we've kind of, you know, all the quick wins, all the low hanging fruits done.Yeah. But we've done everything we had in mind the kind of the ideas we had up our sleeve but actually our desired condition is still way out. Time's ticking. So we're kind of running low on chips, as they say in poker. So not only will this happen inevitably over time in a business context, I even think we should look for that.So we should make sure we run out of solutions. Because you know, competitiveness comes from solving things that others haven't solved yet or solving them in a completely different way. Right. So now while you might still wonder, why do we need coaching? Now reaching that threshold of knowledge is kind of create stress.Okay. So we're out of solutions. We're out of chips. And that's when our biases kick in. So first and foremost if you're, I guess you're familiar with thinking fast and slow we start making assumptions based on our experience. So we reach for what has worked in the past, and it's quite likely that we ignore that circumstances might have changed or we conclude.It's impossible, right? So now besides these biases there's also some in a business context, there's often some group dynamics at play. So when we run out of solutions and you can imagine your team starting to discuss if the group has similar experiences, made similar experiences something like groupthink might kick in and we're even more convinced that this is the way to go.Or if, you know, everybody has different opinions this might get a heated discussion and then in the end, you know, it's all about opinion. We're actually not discussing facts anymore. And then the most senior person or whoever's most convincing wins. So that is kind of. is at stake? What's happening?We will run out of solutions and then biases, noise, group dynamics will kick in. Hope is not lost. Changing that is not as difficult as we might think because there's actually a powerful countermeasure available and that is practice of scientific thinking skills. So scientific thinking is a meta skill.And it helps us counter these effects. And that is actually the purpose of Toyota Kata, develop the meta skill of scientific thinking as a group and ultimately make it part of our culture. So the way we do things on a side note, that's actually the second meaning of the suffix Kata, a way of doing things now.So when we talk about all this, I think it's becoming clear, this is about habit change. This is about changing thinking patterns. Now our brain has this natural tendency to follow existing paths. So a new path. So whenever you try something new, we'll, by default. Be uncomfortable or make you feel uncomfortable.And it also will suck a lot of energy. And that is why we need a coach. So basically we need a coach to help us stay on track until this new neural pathway is strong enough and becomes a habit. And I mean, then you could say but then coaching ends. It doesn't end because in sports. a pro always has a coach, right?So to take the game to the next level. And that is why having managers as a coach is so important. Because a habit needs a trigger and you want to take it to the next level. So basically this is all about develop scientific thinking skills. Make them a habit and then trigger them, trigger their use on a daily basis on all levels.[00:07:26] Joe Krebs: Tilo, this is it sounds interesting. You just mentioned in the intro you were talking a little bit about experts in this. What you just described, it might sound for somebody out there like a severe undertaking, right? Why don't just hire an expert for that improvement we need? [00:07:43] Tilo Schwarz: Sure. I mean, that certainly could be an option in, in, in some situations.Now what I like to kind of remind myself of is hiring an expert is outsourcing, right? So we're outsourcing the knowledge work. And then besides that, an expert. I mean, we're all experts on a certain topic. You are, I am an expert is an expert because of the experience the expert has made with solving similar problems.So now If there's more and more new problems to be solved in the world there will be less and less experts, right? Or in other words in, in a changing world, volatile conditions, learning, speed of learning beats having experience and knowledge. And that's why we talk about the learning organization a lot.Now, a learning organization has the ability to evolve the business, to improve the products, develop new products, improve the processes, and do that over and over. So developing that kind of organization, a system, an organism, you could say, that evolves itself, if that is our goal, then, I mean, we cannot hire experts from the outside, right?So we have to develop this ability within the organization. And I think that is, that's very crucial. [00:09:10] Joe Krebs: So we already touched on that there are two Kata, the improvement and the coaching Kata. Early on we talked a little bit about the improvement Kata, but what makes the coaching Kata approach so special or so different in this context, if we're just isolating and focusing on that.[00:09:27] Tilo Schwarz: Yeah. So for me, it's the dual purpose. So there's different coaching approaches. And the idea of coaching in a business context is of course not completely new. So just to be clear here this is not about you know, being right or wrong or, you know, coaching is the only approach and no, this is not the point.Coaching is situational. And it's all about what is your purpose for using a coaching approach in this situation that is at hand. So it's about what is it we want to achieve? Now the first purpose of coaching, and I think that is true for any kind of coaching approach is helping an individual or a team to reach a specific goal or solve a problem.So I mean, if you think of business coaching, personal coaching, sports coaching even marriage counseling, right? It's always about reach a goal, solve a problem. So of course this purpose the coaching kata has that purpose too help the person you coach achieve a goal, remove an obstacle.Now, in addition, and that's that dual purpose thing. In addition, the coaching kata has a second purpose. And that is what, in my opinion, makes it very unique. Because the second purpose is that while we work towards reaching a specific goal. In addition, we want to become better or make the person that we coach better at a meta skill.So becoming better at scientific thinking. So to make that maybe I'll try an example. So maybe it's best compared to a sports coach where you say, so the sports coach is coaching a to win this specific game. And at the same time, learn how to play the game even better. So that is what for me makes the coaching kind of special.This dual purpose.. [00:11:30] Joe Krebs: This is awesome. We just touched a little bit on the coach itself, on the role of the coach. And the and the coaching Kata and the improvement Kata, but let's go back to that coach for a second, that individual what are the skills and characteristics you will be looking at by looking at what what's that coach in terms of characteristics and skills, responsibilities.[00:11:50] Tilo Schwarz: I'm a bit hesitant with the question here, you know, because this sounds like a checklist. It's kind of, you know, what criteria do I need to fulfill to be a coach? And I sometimes feel at least around coaching Kata, we've, we think too much of the coach being a job or a title. Connected with a certificate maybe?So a sports coach, that's a distinct job, okay? Or a personal coach, that's a job too. A systemic coach, that's the title. You have to earn it and then you get a certificate. That's why there maybe is a list of skills and you need to learn them. And then if you match them, you get the certificate, right?Now, as far as the coaching Kata of is concerned the coach is maybe more a momentary role, a role you take in a conversation, like, you know, when we talk about my project, you're coaching me. So you're the coach. When we're talking about your project. I might be coaching you, so then I'm the coach, right?So now let's take that in a business context where we're talking about managers should be coaching, managers as coaches. Rather than making this list of criteria, I prefer to talk about why should we be coaching? And then if we say like, okay so this is why then, Hey, how can we learn this?Yeah. And I don't know if we have time but just digging into that a little bit. So why should we be coaching? I think first adding an increasing amount of coaching to our daily management work might be the only option, viable option forward. I mean, given the unpredictability we have.Right. Because telling people what to do basically requires to have the answer, which is probably more and more unlikely to happen even inhumane to expect that from managers. You always have to have the answer. Then again, only setting targets defining projects and then say, okay, get out.I'll get out of the way. You figure it out. Might not work either. Because our team doesn't have the answer, or at least it raises the question if this is kind of manager's task, set the target, then get out of the way, what do we need managers for in the future? I mean, JetGPT can probably produce a, you know, scan our strategic target list analyze the running projects for impediments, and then create a list.That's what to work on today. So basically in a way you could say why do we need more coaching? Because I believe we'll be more and more operating in that area where neither we as the manager nor our team has the answer. And then we need to start coaching. How can we help our team to find the answer?Another reason, I mean, we're talking about people development. And and that's kind of a second aspect. So helping people to reach their potential, I think that is one of our main tasks in a leadership role. And I mean, I see it this way, very personally. I mean, when I watch this over, everything is said, everything's done, you look back on your life, you don't want to end up, you know, kind of thinking of people you've been working with, you've worked with, you've lived with and go like.Oh, they didn't reach their full potential because of me. And not just because I didn't help them because maybe I even was in their way. You don't want that. Right. If we, the need for coaching, I think is growing and I think it's also that what makes the role of good leadership. So if we want to learn this and that maybe gets closer to your question of a skill list.I'll go high level here. So number one, I think coaching, learning to coach starts with a posture, the underlying mindset we have. And basically it's like this. It's not about you. It's about the people developing the people you're responsible for. It's not about you putting in your ideas and solutions.And then. And if that is you then you can start your learning journey. And I think that's the second aspect, understanding that becoming a better coach is a learning journey because coaching is a skill. There's no hack. It's not like you can read a book, you can sit in the classroom and that's knowledge.That's not skill. And that is really what I love about the coaching kata. Right from the start, I realized, Hey the coaching kata provides a set of questions. I can get started with, and it's not 100 questions. It's a set of questions. It's structured in five phases. And I felt like back when I was a plant manager yeah, I stand a chance.I can do that. I can do that even in the whirlwind of my daily management. Yeah. Okay. Start with the posture is not about you and coaching is a learning journey. Right. And I think that, that's a good starting point. [00:17:08] Joe Krebs: Very good starting point and thanks for clarifying a little bit.It's not so much of a list or something like that, or of skills. It's more like a. The thing, and as you said, in sports, sometimes ex athletes who are trying to become coaches are not good coaches. It turns out that they're departing from that profession. So it is a skill that needs to be added on.So just being a good athlete, it's just a good piece, but it's just not the full person. So you just mentioned a little bit, the questions you would be asking there is a coaching cycle where the coach and the coachee is going to meet. And there are some questions that are being asked.What's the purpose of these coaching questions in an, in a coaching cycle like this? [00:17:53] Tilo Schwarz: As I said first the questions of the coaching kata provide a starting point for practicing, for getting our practice started. And then over time, of course, it's not about, you know, talking like a robot forever.So over time, as our coaching skills develop our brain will turn these questions into question phases. Like a five phase coaching model. And then using this five phase model intuitively like a scaffold is what enables us to coach in actually nearly any kind of situation, like in a one on one, in a meeting, and even when there's just pressure, yeah.And once we have this underlying model as a scaffold in our mind for, You know, running our conversations, running our meetings, it really releases this pressure of having to have all the answers. And at the same time, it's not just saying, okay, you do it. It's, it also provides a way, you know, we can have our team to move forward.So when that is when kind of the coaching kind of questions show their second purpose, because you asked about purpose or what do they do they become you could say like a measurement instrument. So here's what I mean. So I don't know, Joe have you ever done downhill skiing? Are you a skier?I'm not sure. A[00:19:12] Joe Krebs: little bit downhill. A little bit. Okay. Okay. [00:19:14] Tilo Schwarz: That's good. Okay. So let's quickly run this mental experiment, or not experiment, just this, you can imagine so you can ski and now you want to up your game. So for the weekend, you take a ski instructor. Now, when you meet and after saying, hi what is.What's the first thing this ski instructor is going to, what she's going to do? [00:19:37] Joe Krebs: Probably assessing my, State.[00:19:38] Tilo Schwarz: Current condition. Yes, exactly. And so basically developing skills starts with assessing current condition. So how does she do that? She tells you, Hey, Joe, go down this part of the slope, right?And then, exactly. So she wants to see you, she wants to see you ski, yeah. And that helps her to understand. where you're at. And then she can take it from there. Okay. So developing skills starts with understanding current condition. Where's the person at? And that is what the questions do.Okay. So when you ask the question, the coaching Kata question, one of them, they are like a measurement instrument. So it's not so much about the question. It's about listening to the answer. And then this answer will give you a glimpse in how the other person is thinking. So I'll make an example. So imagine you ask a question from phase three, like, which one obstacle or impediment are you addressing now?And then your counterpart says we have to update the software on the controller. So you probably right away hear, this is not an obstacle, it's a countermeasure. Update software on controller. So mentally you realize your counterpart is already moving towards taking action. Now depending on the situation, that might be okay.But imagine maybe the past three days, we've been throwing all kinds of things, you know, action at some arbitrary attempts to get this solved. Then maybe you don't want to move with that and say wait. So a good follow up question might be, so what obstacle or impediment are you addressing by updating the software?So in a way, this coaching kata question you started with, which one helps you addressing, and then listening to the answer helps you understand where the person's at. That's like the ski coach saying, Hey, Joe, go down the slope here. Yeah. Right. So basically the, back to your question, coaching kata questions at the beginning, they provide a starting point.Then they turn into this five phase model, a scaffold, and the questions themselves become your measurement instrument. [00:21:53] Joe Krebs: Right. Cool. So when I got exposed to Kata and several years ago one thing that really, you know, brought me, I guess something extremely powerful was the concept of a second coach. And this is really a cool concept because there is not only one coach, there is a possibly a second coach that is part of that, that coaching cycle.What's the power of that? You want to explore this a little bit together. [00:22:19] Tilo Schwarz: Yeah, so let's talk about why is it helpful to have a second coach? We said coaching is a skill and develops through practice. In the longer run, we want to add coaching to our leadership portfolio. And.You know, this is not a knowledge problem. I mean, managers, no, I can tell you from my own experience as a manager we know we should be coaching. We've read books. We've had some two day coaching training or whatever, a course. Yeah. We know the issue is any given day, somebody steps into your office and says, we have a problem.And you have like 21, 22, 23. to make a decision, right? Do you tell? Do you delegate? Do you coach? Okay. So that's the issue. It's like in the moment, in the heat. Yeah. Pull the coaching card. And skill development of course is best done with a coach, right? Because we can't observe ourselves. And that is where this power of this having a second coach comes in, helping me.If coaching is a learning journey, helping me to move forward on this learning journey. [00:23:36] Joe Krebs: Yeah, this is really cool. As we said in the beginning, you are the author of Giving Wings to Her Team, a novel you wrote together with Dr. Jeffrey Liker. And There is a character called Denise in your book and I just want to bring listeners to the book.Obviously, there's an awareness that there is a book, it's a novel, and there's some form of Kata, obviously, and coaching involved. Can you name one struggle from Denise, which is one of the characters in the book that is very common when somebody is starting with [00:24:08] Tilo Schwarz: Sure. Sure. Just a bit of context here for your listeners.So Denise is the main character. She's a young manager, has taken her first managerial role has a background as a consultant and because yeah she just wants to lead her team in a, you know, timely manner a modern way of working together. So she has this aspiration of coaching her team and she runs some experiments.And because of her background as a consultant and having some coaching training, she said, okay, I can do this. Okay. So I'll just read a part from the book if that's okay. So Wednesday, February 2nd, 6. 35 PM. What a long day at work. Denise parked hercar at the fitness studio, grabbed her duffel bag and made her way to the changing room. She had met with Joan Mark, her team leaders, twice today to discuss the target conditions they were working on this week. It seemed that after an initial burst of energy early in the week, Denise had tried to coach them using approaches she had learned during a training program at the consultancy she worked for.What are you trying to achieve? Getting that damn quality issue solved, Joe had said in frustration at one point. What options do you have? Was another question Denise had lobbed at him. At first, Joe and Mark had come up with suggestions. Denise had encouraged them to try them out right away.Unfortunately, they did not work. They were further disillusioned. What other options can you think of? was the question Denise had tried next. Mark had just stared at her. Nothing, he said. I've tried everything. It's just impossible. Oh no, back to where we started, Denise had thought. She had tried to encourage them and also awaken their ambitions by asking, So how would it feel to be successful?How would it feel? Mark had replied. I'd say relieved, because then we could stop these stupid interviews. Then she had tried yet another approach. What is the real challenge here for you? The real challenge is that I don't know how to solve the quality issue. Joe had snapped back at her. So what options do you see?Denise had asked him. I don't know, Joe had said. I've tried everything. It just doesn't work. Okay, what else could we do? I don't know, Joe had replied, even more annoyed than before. These interrogations you call coaching are driving me crazy. Please just tell me what you want me to do. Denise had been just as frustrated as Joe.This had been exactly where she didn't want to go, but she knew she was running out of alternatives and had started making suggestions. Joe and Mark quickly shot each idea down. That doesn't work. We tried that. That doesn't work either. I need to talk to Maggie, desperately, Denise thought as she grabbed her towel and left the changing room.She entered the gym hall, walked over to the stationary bicycles, looking around for Maggie, but Denise couldn't see her anywhere. She started her workout. So Maggie is her second coach. That's the person she's looking for. And yeah, this is not a few, this is another Joe, by the way, Joe, just for clarity.[00:27:58] Joe Krebs: I know why you picked this example. [00:27:59] Tilo Schwarz: So let's kind of, Think about that passage for a second. So what we see happening here is a very common struggle for coaches or when we try to coach. Happened to me too, yeah. Basically checking in and asking a few questions is not coaching, right?Because this is unlikely to help the other person when they're stuck. So we're having a situation here where the team is stuck. And then a second struggle is because then when Denise realized we're getting nowhere, she started to enter in her ideas. So that's kind of a second thing that is a big issue when coaching.So sometimes people ask me what do you mean I should stay away from my own ideas? But then, I mean, how can I coach if I don't have knowledge and understanding about the topic? I often say, if you don't have a deep knowledge about the process or topic you're coaching on that might actually be helpful because if you have you're probably going to be sucked in by your own ideas.And at some point you're going to start to, yeah. What do you think about this? Have you thought about this? Yeah. This is not coaching. I mean, this is consulting, counseling, sparing solving problems together. So then people ask, so how can I coach them without? You know, without, if I don't have knowledge, how can I coach?Basically we can by coaching on the how, on the meta level of how people approach things and help them do it in a scientific way. And that's kind of this, the secret power of the coaching kata, you could say. So it helps the coach to move to this meta level. And then instead of, you know, talking about the topic, coach people on how they work towards the target, help them to do it in a scientific way and not challenge what they do to reach their target and compare it with our own ideas. So these are two common struggles if you ask that. So it's like, Hey, coaching isn't just asking any kind of questions. And if you start entering your own ideas. It's like, Hey, how can I coach my team? So they come up with the idea I had in mind, right? This is not coaching. [00:30:16] Joe Krebs: Okay. Yes. I think that's an important differentiation on what is coaching or not thanks for that.Tilo, now somebody might be listening to this and this sounds all very interesting. I would like to try this but my organization does not have a culture of scientific thinking nor does it have coaching culture. How do they get started? And most importantly, let's just say, like, it's a slightly bigger or large organization.How do they scale that across an organization, that kind of thinking combined with coaching if they don't have that experience and that expertise, how do they get started?[00:30:52] Tilo Schwarz: So first let's look at the arrival point. What is it we need to achieve? So finally, or ultimately two things have to come together. And that is good coaching skill on all levels of the organization combined with working on important goals. I mean, we're coaching for developing people so they can reach challenging goals, which means having managers with good coaching skills on all levels of the organization is the bottleneck.That's the big hairy thing to be addressed. So how can we get started towards that? So step one, start small. This is not like you don't start with a program two day training for all managers hand out the question card. Please don't do this. So it's start with building a first group of good coaches because this gives you.gives you, you know, a, like, like a crystal, you know, a crystal starts with a seed. So this is about building the seed. It also is provides you with a proof of concept. So start small, build a first group of good coaches. Now, how do you do that? These coaches need to get an intuitive feeling of a scientific way of working.I mean, rationally, this is totally clear. But in the moment when you hear the answer, just like the ski coach, when you go down the hill, now your ski instructor needs to have a picture in mind. And if you do a left turn, she will compare what she sees you doing with the picture. If she hadn't had that picture she couldn't be your ski instructor, right?So this is what I call a coach's reference. So before we can coach, we need to build this reference or this kind of goes together. No reference, no coaching because you can ask the questions, but any answer goes, right? What's a good answer? What's a bad answer? So these coaches need to build this intuitive feeling of a scientific way of working.Otherwise they won't be able to coach for scientific thinking in their teams. Otherwise, they would be asking the questions, but would not focus on the meta level. They will probably use their content, their technical knowledge, and try to coach people towards what they have in mind. So you could say wannabe coaches should have a coach first.So how do you do it? Find a good coach. And what I mean here is not just any kind of coach, but someone that has particular experience in practicing coaching kata. Right. At the beginning, this person is likely coming from the outside and that's okay. And it just kept, I mean, by the way, this is a huge upside of Toyota Kata because over the last 10 plus years really a global base of practitioners has developed like grassroots.Yeah. There's likely going to be somebody in your region, so find someone in your region who can help you get started. Then of course, also the Kata Coaching Dojo is an accelerator for learning to coach. You, it's, you could think of it like a flight simulator, what a flight simulator does for pilots the Kata Coaching Dojo does for coaches.So offering frequent coaching practice in a safe space. And then once you got that first, the seed, this first group of internal coaches. Start growing the crystal, yeah. So link coaching, so develop more coaches step by step, because now you have these coaches and they can coach the next, you know, group and exactly.And then at that point, it's very important to think about this second aspect. So that is link coaching to working on strategic goals. So coaching people as part of their daily work, working towards relevant, meaningful goals. And once you're at that stage basically there's another good book actually at that stage, it's called Toyota Kata Culture that describes that kind of, you know, from the seed to the crystal, how do you do it?And, Combining good coaching with working towards strategic targets on all levels, that is when the power unfolds exponentially. Okay. So now the rocket is off the launching pad. Yeah. Because really what we see happen is people can outperform the expected through practicing scientific thinking.and with the help of a coach. And I firmly believe, and that is why Jeff and I wrote this book. It's like this book describes this journey for the individual, the coach, as well as for the organization. So from the starting point to the seed, to growing the crystal and combining it with working on strategic goals.You know, and we firmly believe you and the listeners, yeah your team can do it too. They need you as a coach and the coaching cata can help you become that kind of coach, the coach you always wanted to be and the coach your team needs you to be. Right. And that is why our book has this title, Giving Wings, yeah?So just like Denise is giving wings to her team, you can give wings to your team. [00:36:09] Joe Krebs: And Tilo, I could not even think of better words to end this podcast episode here with you. Giving wings to our teams. Thank you for coming on, talking about coaching, Kata coaching in particular with the with the listeners here in the Agile Kata series on Agile FM.Thank you so much. [00:36:28] Tilo Schwarz: Joe, thank you. It's been a pleasure.

time new year giving state coaching connected agile schwarz 5s tilo toyota kata joe krebs

143: Jeffrey Liker

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 6, 2024 34:40

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.Transcript: Agile F M radio for the agile community. [00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Thank you for tuning into another episode of Agile FM. Today, I have Dr. Jeffrey Liker with me. You probably know from a, I would say, famous book with the title The Toyota Way. That is a book we want to talk about today a little bit, but there's so much, much more about Jeff, he is a professor of industrial and operations engineering at the University of Michigan.He's president of Liker Lean Advisors, and as I said, he wrote not only the Toyota Way, but he also wrote, if I did the count right, nine other books. That relate to Toyota, and there are two books that more recently were published and we'll have a chance in a different episode to talk about those.One was in June, 2023, Giving Wings to her team with Tilo Schwartz, and we have Engaging the Team at Zingerman's Mail Order and that's more like a comic if you want to see it this way, and he co authored that with Eduardo Lander and Tim Root, so that is the The list of books if I haven't missed anything, but we want to talk a little bit about the Toyota way before we do that.Welcome to the show though, Jeff. [00:01:13] Jeffrey Liker: Thank you. Joe. [00:01:16] Joe Krebs: Awesome. So the Toyota way initially released, I believe 2000, somewhere three, two, somewhere that this book we're talking about is the Toyota way. Second edition. This is also very important. We're talking about the second edition of which, which was released somewhere in the year 2021. Timeframe. [00:01:34] Jeffrey Liker: Yes. Three, about two years old. [00:01:36] Joe Krebs: Yeah. And but there is something that happened in that book that is fundamentally different in, in terms of I, I don't know all the change log and everything, but there's one fundamental change, and that is the inclusion of scientific thinking.[00:01:52] Jeffrey Liker: Right, right. A little over five years ago, Mike Rother than I jointly gave a presentation and the book hit my book Toyota Way was 20 years old. So the 20 year anniversary, and his book to Toyota Kata was, I believe, 10 years old, and. We started talking about the relationship between the two.Mike was one of my students and he had practiced lean transformation for many years and was very familiar with the Toyota way and all the concepts of Toyota and studied Toyota. And then he came up with this thing called Toyota Kata. And I had to kind of struggle to sort of figure out what it was and what he was trying to add to what we know about Toyota.And. What he really did was to reverse engineer what Toyota, we call him Toyota Sensei. Sensei is like a master teacher. So what the Toyota Sensei, who are experts on the Toyota production system, do when they work with a new client outside of Toyota, how do they teach it? And they always teach by doing.And he had a chance to see a lot of companies that these different Toyota masters worked with and their masterpieces. And. Asked the question, What do they have in common? And they're all very successful, like they almost won't even bother working on a project unless they can at least double productivity.And that just happens almost automatically. And so he knew that they got great results. But the question is, what are they doing. And in fact, each of these masters. It has a bit of an ego, and they think that they're doing it the right way and the best way, and nobody else can do it that way, the way they do, but he found an underlying pattern, which he called scientific thinking, and what he noticed is the first thing they do is they grasp, they call it grasp the situation in Toyota, they go in, they see what's going on, they talk to the top leaders, and they ask, what is it that they're trying to accomplish?What is their goal? What is their purpose? What are their goals? Why do they want to learn about lean management? What is their vision for what happened? If they were successful, then they go to the Gemba where the activity is, and it could be a factory that they work. They've worked with where they gave you injections for COVID 19.They've worked with where they made ventilators for COVID 19. They've worked with software houses where they develop software. They don't really care when they will go to the Gemba and they'll see the process and understand the current conditions. So then they'll go back, they'll grasp the situation generally, and then they'll go back and they'll say, here's where you're at.Here's the challenge for you. Yeah. And the challenge is always big, you know, like we will double productivity or we will reduce costs by 30 percent or something pretty big based on the needs of the company may have runaway late deliveries and there's paying a ton for a premium freight.And we'll say we will eliminate all shipping and then they will go back to the Gemba with a team of people from the company. And they will teach them how to see, how to understand the process as it is. And Mike calls this the current condition. And then the people in the company will basically wait and expect answers, solutions from the masters.So what do we do? And the masters will say, that's my question to you. What are you going to do? You see where you are, you see where you want to be. You see all sorts of opportunities. What do you think you should be working on first? And then based on what they say the students say, they they may ask them to go back and look some more.Or they may say, why don't we try it? Usually what these people come in the company, come up with, because it's a big challenge, they come up with a fairly big thing and they, it might be, for example, in a manufacturing facility, moving equipment around and laying it out as a cell and They said a personal last one.Can you do this? And they'll say something like, well, we have to talk to engineering and we have to make sure customers okay with this. We have to line up the maintenance people move the equipment. So, I think we really stretch it. Maybe we could do it in a week. And then the trade master will say, good, I'll be back tomorrow and that like starts the process. Now, of course they can't do it in a day what they might have to do it. They can't get all the approvals. So what the person is trying to get them to do is. You don't have to do a hundred percent in one step. Let's try something that's doable and then see what happens.And then we can learn from it. And then we can think about based on that, what our next step is. Usually what happens is the, like, for example, if they lay out a cell. It'll be a disaster. You'll move the equipment together and they'll realize that the equipment has maintenance issues and it's breaking down and everything stops because they don't have inventory anymore.And usually they can't, they barely make product and the you know, the mentors say, that's okay. Let's start working on the problems down now that we see what the problems are. You were hiding them before. Now let's start working on the problems one by one. So Mike saw that, and he saw it enough times, that he realized that what the, these Master thinkers were doing.We're not teaching tools and methods like most of the Westerners were doing with lean. They were teaching a way of thinking. Yeah. And it was actually very scientific. What's your goal? What's your current condition? Right. You know, fairly precisely with measurements and direct observation. And then let's not try to in one step get to the challenge.Let's break down the problem. And all we really need to understand is our first step. And then after that, our second step, our third step, and each of these steps were structured like experiments. They might ask them, what do you think will happen if we make the cell? And then, you know, the people will say, Oh, well, our productivity will go up or quality will go up.Let's see what happens. Yeah. It's a disaster. Yeah. So what did we learn from that? We learned that we have a lot of problems that we've been hiding. And now we can see the problems we have to solve them. So, and also they're trying to teach the value of running the experiment, learning from it, which then gives you the next step and gives you the next step.So that became the basis for what. Mike call Toyota kata. The other part of it was in the meantime, he was studying about neuroscience and cognitive psychology and how we learn and there's a lot of literature that suggests that none of us are natural scientific thinkers, right? We're driven more by biases and the desire to know things, whether we do or not.So we want a lot of certainty. And we want to be right. We're going to, in fact, fudge the data to make it appear that we're right. That's called confirmation bias, which is really strong in humans. So he realized that to change people, to start to think and act scientifically requires fundamental behavior change.That's right. Yeah. It means changing our habits. And then he asked the question, how do you change habits? And the literature on, on, on cognitive psychology and neuroscience, as well as Practical experience, for example, with coaching sports teams, it all says the same thing, which we have to practice repeatedly with feedback.And it's very common enough times it becomes a new habit. So then he said, asked, how do you, how can we practice scientific thinking? And he said, first, we need a model, which we have, which is challenge current condition, first short term target condition, then experiment, then second target condition and experiment.Then third target condition and experiment. And. Then he said, how can we teach this? And each of those steps has some associated ways of thinking and tools and think practice routines, things to practice. So he laid that out in what he calls the Toyota Kata practice guide, which is pictures and step by step instruction, like, Like a recipe book and he came up with kata, which comes from the martial arts, which mean small practice routines to teach us complex skill by breaking it down and trying the pieces one by one karate.They'll have the first kata and move the second kata until you learn the first kata. That's right. Correctly. So it's an evolution. Yeah, and usually think about, you know, taking a music lesson until you can play the very simple piece. They want. Go on to the next more complicated piece. All right. So, that led to the whole Toyota Kata, which is a model plus the practice routines.And as you practice them, you begin to think more naturally in a scientific way. [00:11:20] Joe Krebs: Right. So what's interesting is so when I started looking at Mike Rothers work right on, on Kata, and obviously I read your first edition, came in to the second edition and it just like became more and more eyeopening is these habit changes or like a habits we have and habits we want to change that's the same in the agile community, right?So we have certain habits of how we. build software or how we release software and go through transformation and all these cultural changes. So it's just like this meta skill. If you want to see it this way, that, that's that's fascinating when I came across this now, I do want to make sure that If I understand this right, this is obviously not that in 2021 Toyota started with scientific thinking.It was there before, right? It is like something that was carved out as something like it should go into the Toyota way as this core thing. So if you look at [00:12:10] Jeffrey Liker: Yeah. So that was the, we ended up giving a presentation where we said Toyota way and Toyota Kata play well together as if there were separate things.And then thinking about some more, I realized that scientific thinking really underlies. What I called in the Toyota way, the four P's of the Toyota way. The first was philosophy, which I refer to as long term systems thinking. And the second is lean processes. The process of trying to work toward one piece flow.And the third is developing people. In problem solving, which is the fourth "P" and I realized these all are connected through scientific thinking, right? And if you're not thinking scientifically, you can't do any of them. For example, you can't be a system thinker. Yeah. If you're a jelly non scientific thinking is reductionist.We assume every individual tool operates on its own. So we implement Kanban to get inventory reductions and we implement standardized work to get productivity improvements. So we're seeing isolated tools as opposed to a whole system, which is what Mike called the Toyota production system. So with that, I then started to rethink the book from the point of view of scientific thinking, being at the center.And also realizing that you can't really talk about lean as if it's a bunch of mechanistic pieces that you individually build and then they just all suddenly fit together. You have to talk about more of an evolutionary learning process. Yeah. Organization. [00:13:48] Joe Krebs: Yeah. This is interesting. So, I have never consulted for Toyota myself but I was told that the word Toyota Kata does not really, it's not a use, it use Toyota.[00:13:58] Jeffrey Liker: That was not their word. It was Mike's. [00:13:59] Joe Krebs: Exactly. Yeah. [00:14:00] Jeffrey Liker: Description from the outside of what he learned in Toyota. And then he went further and say, the Japanese sensei, they tend to be pretty mysterious Yeah. Yeah, it's light. For example, do it tomorrow. Yeah, we'll come and see. So what should I do now? What do you think you should do now?Yeah. So they tend to be mysterious, but he realized that if we want to mass distribute this to people that don't have access to those magical Japanese, we need a very explicit and simple methodology. So he developed in great detail, this methodology that in Toyota, they wouldn't think they had to use because they, what they say is that from the day you enter the company, the culture is so strong.You begin to learn Kaizen. [00:14:49] Joe Krebs: Yeah. Interesting. So, what was that one of the reasons why you decided to call that core scientific thinking, or was it more like, because it's the thinking and not the tool, it's not the pattern [00:15:00] Jeffrey Liker: thinking now it turns out. You go back to the first Japanese pamphlet. Really? It was a document for the first Japanese document that describes the Toyota production system.It says that it's based on scientific thinking. So for people in Toyota, that's not. Unusual. It's not a stretch, but they, and they think of scientific thinking more empirically than theoretically. So there's theoretical science where we just. In the abstract. And then we deduce from that things and we apply the abstract model to a problem.And then there's inductive science where we look at the phenomena and the empirical reality. And then we induce from that principles and solutions. And so in Toyota, they learned that you need very specific solutions to very specific problems. Yeah. Not general solutions to a whole general class of problems.So you need both to some degree, but they're much more focused than most on solving this problem right here, right now. Yeah. So when they see product development in software, we're developing a software program, they see it and maybe they see it as a part of product development, but they're not going to come in and say, here's your 10 step roadmap to great software.They're going to ask, what is your problem? What are you trying to accomplish? What's your goal? Let's go look at your current process. So they want to know the specifics of your situation and your goals. And they want you to learn how to think scientifically, to learn for yourself how to achieve whatever goals you have and adapt and adjust as the environment changes.[00:16:45] Joe Krebs: It is, it's fascinating also when I open up your new book, the second edition, right? There's also a thing where you design a I don't know if that's the content of your masterclass. I do know that you're teaching a lot of masterclasses but it's really the transition from a mechanistic lean, right?Organic lean. And if I go through the list of the organic lean, this is just like, it just translates for me, for somebody who has been now, you know, using, learning, applying Kata thinking more and more it just links like one, one, one to one, like two to the scientific thinking too, right? [00:17:17] Jeffrey Liker: Yeah, the other part is that whatever performance improvement program you have, Whether it's lean or agile or theory of constraints or whatever.If you look at it from what I call mechanistic point of view, then you're trying to fit square pegs in the round holes, you know, your problems, I want your problems to fit into my model. . and the other expression pill uses, if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.So, You can apply Lean, you can apply Agile, you can apply Six Sigma mechanistically, or you can apply any of those things organically. You start organically, you start with a problem. You want to engage the people who understand the Gemba the reality the best. And you want to teach them how to think differently about their process.So they developed the skills of problem solving and performance improvement, and you expect to be surprised and you expect that you won't know the answers until you start digging in and trying things, Mechanistic point of view, you, I have the solution and I'm going to sell you the solution, even though I've never been in your place.I've never seen your process. I don't know anything about. Yeah, I have the solution for you. That's kind of taking this abstract solution and assuming it's going to apply in the abstract to any similar type of problem. Staying at that theoretical level. [00:18:49] Joe Krebs: This is this could I want to just take one example.You know, I want to hear your opinion about this as you do teach these classes, right? When you are surrounded by leaders in those workshops, and you do talk about something like, yeah, I find like the right line here. It's not about like organic, Lean. It would be, it's not a project. It's a journey.Right. And I would just like to hear like what kind of responses, what do you hear when you introduce a concept like this, in terms of continuous improvement and it's a journey or it's a. From a cultural perspective, it's not like an initiative that starts here and ends in by the end of March or any arbitrary date you, somebody might pick it as an ongoing activity that obviously shifts from a leadership perspective, entirely the view, like, what did you hear when you challenge people?[00:19:39] Jeffrey Liker: When I teach the masterclass, the people that usually come have titles like director of continuous improvement, vice president operations excellence and then I'll get some people who might be the head of operations or plant manager, but and you're probably this is self selection, but they all agree when we talk about it.That the approach they have used in the past was very mechanistic and the approach that they believe, particularly after they see it in Toyota. So we do this with Toyota is they see the value of engaging all the people and Leaders acting more as coaches than as disciplinarians. And they said, that's what we need.So they, they conclude they want to move toward a more organic approach, but then they also feel a little bit concerned and nervous because I said, you know, my boss's boss expects immediate measurable results from everything we do with lean. And if you're telling me that it takes time, if you're telling me that it takes investment in developing people.And there's a gap, a time gap between the investments we make in developing people, for example, teaching them using Kata and the results that we get, we're going to have a hard time selling that. So what we ended up concluding usually is that you need both, that there is some value in the experts coming in with the tools, eliminating waste and streamlining processes and getting.Quick results on a more expansive part of the organization. Cause these people are coming in with big companies. They might have 30 or 40 or 50 manufacturing plants and the, and that there's a value in piloting within a smaller area, some of the deeper approaches to changing ways of thinking and changing culture with the successes you have in those models.You have something to sell to the senior management, come and see this and see how much better they perform. So that's usually the kind of vision they have is that they have to somehow find a balance. And I have a slide that shows like, the balance of justice and they have to find a balance between the more mechanistic, quick, short term and superficial approach.Deep and a mile wide. And that's deploying the tools and then the more deep one inch wide, a mile deep, the more deep approach to developing people one by one that you would be doing with Kata. So they have to find a balance between those things, and they have to figure that out there through their own scientific thinking journey.They have to figure it out inside their company by trying things by experimenting. So I asked him instead of leaving here with a whole bunch of solutions. that you're going to bring and implement your company, think about one big challenge that would really make a difference. Your ability to deploy lean, sell lean and define that as a challenge.Then the next, what do you do next? And they said, well, we have to solve the problem. Okay. So how do you solve the problem? Do you go back there and say, we need standardized work. We need employ work groups that we saw at Toyota. And they said, no, those are solutions. We have to understand the current condition.First. That's a great, wonderful.[00:23:09] Joe Krebs: Back to scientific thinking.. This is awesome. Your book was initially the first edition came out as we said of. Several years ago, 2002 or something like that. Why do you think at least from the, from an agile perspective there's other terms floating around. I don't want to go into pick any, right, because it's not a complete list necessarily, but why do we.I see like a lack of of these terms actually like being used on a more broader level, right? You have sold so many books and people are looking at this and saying this is wonderful material, but the implementation, it seems to be slow in the transition. Like taking companies to lean or even in, in agile transformations, is it, do you think it has something to do with the the culture, like, like, for example, using Japanese terms or something like that?[00:24:01] Jeffrey Liker: Yeah, I don't think that so much. I mean, I think there is sometimes a sense that since this is a car company and you have a stereotype picture in your mind of what a car company does. And the first thing you often think about is the assembly line, where you have cars running down the assembly line and people are attaching things to the car.And you say, well, that doesn't look anything like what I do, so therefore, it doesn't apply to me. So there's a lot of that, you know, we're different. And it could be anything. It could be that we're a manufacturing company, but we make chemical products. It's not like cars going down the line. Or it could be that we're a finance company and we don't make any physical products.Or it could be that we work with a mining company that does iron ore mining in Australia and we go and we blast and we dig and we have this big batches of stuff. And how do we get to one piece flow? So, the the problem is that you have to shift your thinking from manufacturing. Mechanical solutions.Like I'm trying to look over here to get solutions that apply in an obvious way to me. You have to shift that thinking to there are some general principles here that have been abstract abstracted that I can then bring to my operations and the people who are well trained and lean or in Kata get very comfortable going into any new environment and not knowing What the solutions are, and then digging in and trying to understand the current condition of that operations.So this idea of I think the first easy thing to do is to copy solutions like a template. But if you give me a template, I'll just superimpose on my process and I know what to do. And the harder thing is to take a more abstract concept, like I need to define a challenge., even when I take my classes and I asked them to define a challenge, they struggle, you know, the challenges we want to have a culture of continuous improvement.Well, that's way too abstract. And then if they say, well, the challenges we would want, we'd like five suggestions per employee. That's way too specific. . So finding the right level of the challenge, you know, itself challenging challenges are thinking. And then what do you look at in the current condition?If it doesn't look like a Toyota plant where you can say it takes 60 seconds for each car and we can break down the steps of attaching window wiper into a reach that takes 2 seconds and, you know, They that's their current condition analysis. Your current condition analysis may be very different if you don't have a routine repeating process.But there are ways to understand the current condition in any sort of process. And even and I remember Deming saying that if you don't think you have a process, you can't improve anything. So, that even that idea that, you know, we develop software, and every software project is different. And the process is that we understand what the customer wants, and we do it.There's no process beyond that. You know, so that Just understanding there are processes, there are habits, there are routines that you have and you need to shine a light on them and understand them, and then figure out from where you are how to start to move in the direction. of the ideal model you have in your head.That, you know, it takes a, it takes thinking. Yeah. It's thinking is tiring. [00:27:36] Joe Krebs: Well, that's my recommendation to all of the listeners out there. When I went down the journey and extracted. By doing exactly what you just said, like looking at that material and extracting information saying like, okay, this is not about Toyota.This is not about this. This is about, you know, how would this apply a map to the agile world? I'm just calling it agile Kata out because of the making a dereferencing it to the Toyota. Brand, let's say in this particular case, but the thinking is the same in terms of the scientific thinking, but surrounding it with agile principles and, you know, [00:28:12] Jeffrey Liker: last thing I'd like to say is that as I dug into agile and you and I met.Menlo Innovations, which is kind of a benchmark for Agile and software development. And I looked at what they're doing there, which Richard Sheridan we're doing. And I saw lots of similarities to the Toyota way. And I saw also a lot of similarities to Toyota Kata. And I met, worked on Zingerman's mail order with Tom Root, who is one of the owners.He was originally an IT guy. So the backbone of the mail order business is the IT system. And what I discovered, and I've talked to you and I've talked to a lot of different IT people, what I discovered is that a lot of the concepts of scientific thinking are actually quite natural for programmers, you know, see, if I think in terms, if I say we need to think in terms of systems and how the parts interact, and I go into a manufacturing environment, they might think Treat me like I'm from another planet, but the software guy will say, of course, and then the idea that you have to have a vision for what the software is going to do and understand the customer.And then you have to break that down into small elements of some sort. Call them features, and then you need to develop one feature at a time and then compile them, make sure they work together as a system, and then build the next feature and compile it. And it's a step by step learning process, breaking the big problem into small pieces and then solving each problem one by one.That idea just you know, a software program said, how do you do it any other way? So the high level model of the Kata makes perfect sense. Within the world of software development, but how to do that in a sort of structured systematic way and make it part of the culture and natural.For example at Menlo Innovations, they do unit testing. And if I say unit testing to a software program and say, of course, we know what that is. Let's go and see your program and show me the unit test you've conducted. Exactly. And this kind of, yeah, and it's got to be hopefully more and more examples like this, right?Than than the one you're naming. And so I think somebody might be listening to this. Or reading the second edition of your book of the Toyota way might be building these bridges to whatever environment they are in, right? About in, in the Toyota way I do write about Menlo innovations. And so I, so that's another thing I did in the new edition is add more service examples and software examples and examples from other places, which I didn't have at the time I wrote the original book, I was just describing.So that's in the book. And it. The thinking way is still the same and one of the things that happened with Richard and to tell you the truth is that he started to get kind of turned off by a lot of the agile examples he was seeing, because they like the lean folks were often simply using a tool.Be that agile was almost equivalent to writing things on post it notes. Yeah, and he has all culture. He calls it deliberate culture. He had to develop the whole culture. Out of pairs, paired programming and programs learning from each other and sending what he calls technical anthropologists out to the customer to really deeply understand the Gemba and how they're using software and getting the customer in week by week, every single week to test the software and give feedback to the team.So there's a whole set of practices that he had to create as the standard for the culture of Menlo. That it took an awful lot of work and it was much more than buying a lot of post it notes. [00:32:08] Joe Krebs: Yes, and maybe that was one of the reasons why he decided when we all agreed on we're going to meet in Ann Arbor and it was in September 23 we'll all come together and it was Mike it was you and several others and Richard Sheridan was the first one who says and count me in and I'm offering my office space for this because it's so important.[00:32:25] Jeffrey Liker: So yeah, well he yeah so he didn't understand Kata at first but then I understood it. And he said, yeah, that's pretty much what we do. Isn't it? Then he had to, you know, he then added some things to what they do because they weren't working in a deliberate way using the scientific approach of kind, but the overarching way that they worked and developed all their software was very much the vision, current state, right down to small pieces, solve one problem after another with very quick feedback.Correct feedback, then get it to work. One of the interesting things about Menlo innovations projects, cause they're developing customer software, none of it's off the shelf. And they, if they do a one year project in the 52nd week, the only thing they have to get right is one week of work because 51 weeks of work works perfectly.So there's basically zero, almost zero rework and they have a hundred percent customer satisfaction. The customer takes the software out of the box and they just start using it.. [00:33:37] Joe Krebs: I want to thank you Jeff for some insights on the second edition of the Toyota Way. If the second edition is It's only somewhat successful as the first edition in terms of sales of books.Thousands of books will be sold and thousands of readers out there will be exposed to scientific thinking and it's a good thing through your materials. I want to thank you for that. And also, yeah, just like, to everybody out there, if you are interested go to the show pages, I'm going to list Jeff's books and obviously ways of learning about Kata in a way to apply that in the agile context, I have some additional pointers here of where to go, what to do first and second, and obviously the Kata Bookshelf is growing thanks to you, Jeff, too, and and many more ways to learn about scientific thinking.Thank you, Jeff. [00:34:27] Jeffrey Liker: You're welcome. It's my pleasure, Joe. Take care then.

142: Katie Anderson

english google japan japanese personally toyota cho lerner opposed emphasize yoshino gemba katie anderson toyota kata

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 30, 2024 19:43

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.Transcript: Agile.FM radio for the agile community. [00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Hi everyone, I'm back with another episode in the Agile Kata series. We're going to explore the topic of cultural and learning and how that relates to color and scientific thinking. And today I have Katie Anderson with me, who wrote the book, learning to lead, leading to learn lessons from Toyota leader Isao Yoshino on a lifetime of continuous learning.And there's a lot of words in it that are relating straight with Kata. Katie, you have been on this podcast before we talked more in depth about the book. This is a little bit more in depth about Kata and how it relates to your book that doesn't mention the word Kata, but there are so many connections and synergies.We got to explore that area a little bit, but first and foremost, welcome. [00:00:53] Katie Anderson: Thanks, Joe. It's great to be back and dive into this conversation with you. I'm so passionate about how, as individuals, leaders, we create learning in our organizations and the patterns and routines about how we do problem solving and coach for problem solving is just so fundamental to that.[00:01:09] Joe Krebs: Absolutely. Now, I have to admit, I listened to your book recently the audio version of it. And in the, so I was listening and in all aspects of life, but then it all came together in the last chapter when you summarized the learnings from the book and summarized, and the word kata wasn't mentioned in the book.But it just screamed cut up everywhere. And I was like, I have to have Katie on the show again, and we need to talk about this because it is about continuous learning. It is about failure. It is about what is it failing or falling seven times and getting up eight times. Why? And things like that.So all of those characteristics you're mentioning in the book are important. Did Isao ever mention the word cut out in your conversations? [00:01:52] Katie Anderson: So no, and actually when Mike Rother's book came out and, it was a little before I met Mr. Yoshino, but we as caught the term Toyota Kata and the word Kata, actually means something in Japanese.It's the routines and practices that, support something usually used in martial arts. And the way Mike Rother used it was around how do we create learn habits of learning the patterns that we go through for problem solving and coaching for problem solving. And in the English language, that's now become ubiquitous with, with Kata means that around problem solving.Mr. Yoshino though, there isn't something called Toyota Kata it's what Mike Rother and other researchers, when they went to Toyota to observe what was happening, trying to undercover that, uncover that secret sauce. They, he observed this pattern of how leaders and managers were showing up.To help people go through a problem solving process. And he said, there is this unspoken or undocumented routine that people are doing. And if you read my book, you will see from Mr. Yoshino's 40 years at working at Toyota. So we cover from the late sixties to the early two thousands, all of his experiences about, how to learn how to problem solve and then how to coach other people through problem solving. Go through this same format. How are you asking really effective questions? How are you guiding people through a learning process and not coming up with the answers? How are you setting the direction, providing the support, and then also continuing to develop yourself as a coach and a leader as well?So the reason I didn't use the word Kata or Toyota Kata in the book was because it didn't exist at the time. There wasn't that label that we now have at the time that Mr. Yoshino was in Japan, or at Toyota. [00:03:35] Joe Krebs: And the book itself was called Toyota Kata because of publishing, not necessarily something that is Like a tool that was developed from [00:03:43] Katie Anderson: no, absolutely.So I take people to Japan on my executive Japan study trips and I'll have people in the past. I've had different participants say, are we going to see Toyota boards up at Toyota? I'm like, no, you won't because this was a framework that was developed to help us outside of Toyota. To learn the pattern to practice the kata, the routines that support this.And so then there, there are a variety of tools that can help us do that, but they don't, that's not what exists at Toyota, but that pattern of the mindset and the behaviors exist, but there, Toyota leaders are not walking around with the five question card and going through this. That's a tool to help us learn that pattern that is inherent.I opened the book, you'll remember this Joe of a quote from Mr. Yoshino from early days when I was interviewing him, half a decade ago, he said the only secret to Toyota is its attitude towards learning. And that's exactly what Mike Rother was documenting and Jeff Liker and others and Jim Womack and so many people, they were documenting and seeing this attitude towards learning, but it's really hard to describe that, right?It's easier to see the tools and the outputs of it. [00:04:52] Joe Krebs: Yeah. So this is very interesting, right? Because you actually in that chapter, right? In, in that final chapter of your book, you do mention words like setting the direction, a challenge. Personally or for the organization or as a team is important experimentation is important.Now, within the book, there is I don't want to take the entire book away. There's a ton of things to be explored, but there is an example of a failed experiment, a very costly failed experiment from Mr Yoshino. And that is from a Kata perspective. Obviously an experiment that failed that's at a large scale, right?And a big learning, I would assume would come out of this exploring new business ideas within an organization, even on smaller scales, I'm sure there were tons of experiments going on in his life and what you have observed, obviously working with the organization and with him directly. How important is that from a learning perspective, that experimentation piece?[00:05:51] Katie Anderson: It's fundamental, right? The reason we don't know the answer is because we don't have the answer yet. And so we need to know directionally where are we trying to get to and then learn our way forward. And so a lot of, if you take away the, the terminology, so much that you've learned through reading this book and from my conversations in the series, are those same patterns?Like, how do you set a target? But doesn't don't worry about it being too precise. You'll learn your way forward as you start doing the experiments. It's about how do you ask those questions? How are you go through the process of learning? You'll remember there's a story where Mr Yoshino was asked to Put together a report and a document and his boss who had asked him to do this.When he went forward to present, he said, what was the process that you took to prepare this report? And he knew he should have gone out and actually done interviews, gone to that quote unquote Gemba and said he went to the library because he didn't feel like he had time. And the boss said, no, that's not the right process for the learning.And so it's that same model in the Kata Kata world or Kata framework that. You want to coach people through the process of learning and not necessarily giving them the answer, but giving them the framework and the structure to be learning their way forward to that answer as well, or to a new answer that you don't even have, right?Oftentimes we're in these complex environments. We're not just giving people assignments for learning their way to us, a set predetermined answer. It's about learning our way forward to innovation and to continuous improvement. [00:07:16] Joe Krebs: I remember that that scene in the book.And it was also, it was interesting for me coming from an agile and from a cutters perspective. One thing was in, in that particular dialogue, I remember it crystal clear now that after you said it is probably not enough research was done on the existing current condition, right? So like, where are we right now in, in terms of the process?It was just not enough to read about it and go to the library. So one of those learnings, right? And that is the scientific thinking of Kata to say step back, slow down, go through where you are in, even in your learning journey. Now that's a key aspect of this one. [00:07:54] Katie Anderson: Absolutely. And I want to emphasize too, that like Kata, as we, that using that term Kata, it's nothing new.Absolutely. Different. So it's not separate from like how we approach continuous improvement, how we approach the scientific method. It is the routines and practices that help us get there. And there's people in the lean world or the agile world. And honestly, it doesn't what we label it.Those are like the tools and the processes. But Fundamental thinking and human behavior aspects are all interrelated there too. And so again, Kata is just those routines and practices that help enable us to be better problem solvers and better coaches of problem solving. [00:08:33] Joe Krebs: I always refer to it as a universal pattern rather than a tool.It could be described as a tool, but sometimes people feel like a tool is like a, like an actual thing, a tangible thing. It's a thing. It's a thinking pattern, in my opinion, most likely gets you through scientific thinking. And if we can agree on that scientific thinking is a good idea it's a good idea.[00:08:53] Katie Anderson: Yes, absolutely. And so there are tools that support that you can have a kata storyboard or a question card that helps you practice, but it's the same thing with anything like learning a sport or something. You have tools that help you practice that pattern in that routine. So it becomes habitual.[00:09:08] Joe Krebs: By in a second, second nature of what you do and then sit, therefore you don't need the clients anymore. I think that's a, that's an important thing. Now, what you just described, this is also something I found as a quote. Be patient, it takes time to develop people and accomplish challenges.That was one of those things I carved out and I think that plays very well with what you just said. It's even though it Kata the routines, the questions, it might be simple. There might be a card, there's a starting point. It's not a quick fix. No. Why is that to establish a learning culture like to stay here on topic for culture and learning and everything.What makes this so fundamentally simple, but it is so hard to do so patience becomes an important thing. Absolutely. It's a long term it's a long term way, creating new habits. It does take time. And we, and I talk about this a lot in recent episodes on my own podcast chain of learning.We are caught in this like doing trap opposed to the being trap we get. Very focused on the achievements, the goals, the outcomes that we need. And it's not that we don't have this vision that we want to be someone who's, taking the time to ask the questions to coach, but we just get stuck in this, focused on the outcomes and the doing.And so when we can take a step back and say. Actually, when we do slow down to ask more questions to help other people learn how to solve problems, we collectively actually will ultimately get there faster because we're going to have better ideas. We're going to have more clarity on what's the real problem we're even trying to solve.And then the creative input. of people on how to get there. So we'll come up with better ideas as well. And so we just started this, we get this short fix, cycle, vicious cycle where the practices of the kata really can help us slow down and remind our, remind us to ask those questions.Have we clearly defined a target? Do we really know what that next step is? Have we defined what the gap is? What are the next steps we're taking, doing? And just get us into that pattern opposed to just jumping to solutions or to action when we really don't even know where we need to go.And also to frame things as experiments. And I think that's a really important part of this is framing everything that we're doing as an experiment. If we do this thing, what do we expect to happen? And then it gives us a place to come back and say what did we learn from that? And how is that helping us move forward?And I think let's stay with this experimentation piece for a sec, because I also think that's a cultural thing, right? So we, or I have observed that failure in an organization of an experiment is very often as a negative. Association with it right within the business world. Not so much within laboratories or so.I would assume that's not my that's not my expertise, but it's not very common to have a culture within organizations to foster like. So when you're saying like I don't know if I quote this right here for seven times, get up eight. How many people can fail for seven times within an organization without ramifications within an organization?So how important is that from a leadership's perspective? And obviously Isao Yoshino was part of a leadership team to create a culture like that. So that experimentation is happening and But not tolerated, but encouraged, right? And also the failed experiments that go along with it.Potentially. [00:12:21] Katie Anderson: Yeah, there's so many different ways that I could start going into that framing of that. But absolutely. So starting with absolutely moving from a culture of blame to a culture that embraces failure as a source of learning is critical. So if we're looking at the process and not blaming the person.Second, it's about. Making sure that our experiments are not so like we're doing micro experiments so that the failures are more of a micro level, right? Opposed to, sometimes we do so much planning, planning for this massive thing. And we haven't done any tests of along the way.And so then, it's much more the impact of a failure is so much bigger at that end, rather than if we had done some micro tests along the way and having that learning. And I think in our culture we do we put so much emphasis on the planning side. The plan and the do, and we don't have as much of that study and reflect.And so because of that planning, then we're taking action, but if we fail on that, it's so much bigger. And so then it feels more, catastrophic. And of course we don't want people getting hurt, things happening. Like we don't, we need to, those are bad. Those are really bad failures.And that's hugely problematic and we should have been doing better tests of change before that. But even as you, you mentioned, earlier in this episode, that. Mr. Yoshino was in charge of this large new business venture that ended up costing Toyota like tens of thousands of dollars when it failed, but also you have to be willing to run those experiments because if you're, if you want to create innovation in your organization, you have to be willing to take some risks.You don't know if something's going to succeed or not. And so they also knew that they, Mr. Cho, who was the president of Toyota at the time said to Mr. Yoshino, You were something, you tried, we gave you a mission and you did your best. And thank you. And the Toyota too, there were some things, some management decisions that impacted the business venture not working out.It wasn't just the result of one person. So that's super important from an organizational standpoint as well. [00:14:16] Joe Krebs: It's also leadership, right? You have a challenge for a team or an individual to be able to experiment within certain boundaries, right? And be safe and knowing what the challenges are and have a direction, not just experimenting for the sake of experimenting.[00:14:30] Katie Anderson: Absolutely. Yeah. And the leader's job is to set up the working conditions for people to be successful. And so that's part of their role. What are the structures and conditions that allow people to do their best work and to learn along the way? Yeah. [00:14:43] Joe Krebs: It was also interesting for everybody listening to this from a lean perspective, like this plan, do check act kind of cycle would be part of each of those experiments that would be taking place within the Kata, within the pattern.You will find lean concepts in what we're talking about here as a general thinking process. What's also interesting was the words you used throughout your entire book about Lerner and coach and coachee or learner in this environment, because that is all, when I started reading or listening to the book I was like, always reminded is this about learning.This is not about a manager and a subordinate. It's about a learner from a cultural perspective. And that obviously links directly to Kata as well, whether it's a learner and as a coach from an agile perspective, the learner could be a group of people. rather than a single person.How important was that in your conversations? And by writing the book and what you have learned since the book was published that this, the constant reminder of that we're learners in a day to day practice of improvement. [00:15:45] Katie Anderson: It's so interesting. You haven't, I haven't thought about that terminology. That's something I think I brought in more in terms of describing you, Mr. Yoshino, when he taught, he does talk about, being a manager and a subordinate, and those are just terms that they use, but because this pattern was already embedded into their ethos of how they are, that, that terminology doesn't matter, but it does matter more for us.And so I was really intentional when I was writing the book about how can I translate. These 40 years of Toyota and experience in a way that's really going to resonate and connect with people and our generation who didn't grow up in the Toyota world to understand the real meaning behind things.And so I the word learner and coach are, are, those are really important to me to really emphasize that this is all about the only secret to Toyota is its attitude towards learning. And so how do we stay in that mindset? And so the words that we use can really be helpful and yeah. [00:16:41] Joe Krebs: What was interesting though, was that the roles shifted with throughout the book, right? So sometimes we saw him being a learner versus a coach, right? So we saw the change of the roles, which was fascinating. And that is also what we have in an agile, in a Kata environment all the time.[00:16:57] Katie Anderson: Absolutely. And that's where the, how I came up with the title of learning to lead, leading to learn. And it's. It's a cyclical situation because you're always you're if you have the learning to lead with a, first thing you learn to do this, learn the practice, the kata routines, you need to learn how to be a leader, how to be a manager, how to be an agile practitioner, all of those things, but you also need to lead with an attitude towards learning.And then as Mr. Yoshino said to he was always learning how to be a better leader at the same time. And so we're never stopping learning. We're just in different roles. Sometimes we're the one being mentored or coached and other times we're doing that coaching or we're in teams and we're like doing it all together.So it is, and that's where that concept of that chain of learning. It's actually a phrase that Mr. Yoshino said to me about how he felt so grateful to be joining Toyota. This is in his early years in his twenties, joining a company that really. Emphasize this chain of learning, how are we all learners and leaders together helping improve and grow and become better people solve more problems.And that's, that was really the inspiration for my podcast title too, because how do we all, we're all connected in that way. [00:18:02] Joe Krebs: Yeah. And we all connected through Kata, through your book, through the work we're doing through podcast. This is awesome. Katie, I want to thank you for some of your thoughts and also bringing, thinking to everybody who has read your book and maybe listens to this podcast. It's Oh yes, I've listened to Kata and this is the connection to it. But also for everybody in the agile community to say wow, man, maybe I can use the basic pattern of Kata to improve my role within the organization, right? So I myself have worked with agile coaches that are using Kata for improving their own personal development within an organization. And then they're using it also for teams to improve for high performance. So the sky's the limit, apparently. [00:18:47] Katie Anderson: Absolutely. It's the pattern. It's the pattern of problem solving. It's the pattern of innovate, how we create innovation. And it's the pattern of how we help each other get better. at getting better. And so no matter what you call it, just practice the routines and the patterns. It's going to help you no matter what your industry is, what your, the focus of your work is, whatever challenge you're moving towards, these routines and patterns are just so transformational.[00:19:13] Joe Krebs: Yeah. Katie, you mentioned it already. There is a podcast out there. You have the chain of learning. There is a website that is a kbjanderson. com and uh, but if somebody just Googles the title of your book, learning to lead, leading to learn, they will find you as well. So thank you for coming back on the show and do that Kata special with me. . [00:19:33] Katie Anderson: Thank you. Thanks Joe. It's a pleasure.

Go Beyond Skills Training: Deming in Schools Case Study (Part 19)

The W. Edwards Deming Institute® Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 30, 2024 26:00

What's the difference between education and training? Why is the distinction important? How does the Deming lens offer a new perspective on teacher effectiveness? In this episode, John Dues and host Andrew Stotz talk about why it's important to go beyond skills training and encourage education for personal growth. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:00.0 Andrew Stotz: Here we go. My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W Edwards Deming. Today I'm continuing my discussion with John Dues, who is part of the new generation of educators striving to apply Dr. Deming's principles to unleash student joy in learning. This is episode 19 and we're continuing our discussion about the shift from management myths to principles for the transformation of school systems. John, take it away. 0:00:31.2 John Dues: Andrew, good to be back. Yeah, principle 13 today, Institute a Vigorous Program of Education. I'll just start by reading the Principle, "Institute a vigorous program of education and encourage self-improvement for everyone. The school system needs not just good people, but people that are improving with education. Advances in teaching and learning processes will have their roots in knowledge." It's interesting, when I was reading about sort of this particular principle, Dr. Deming took this actually pretty far when he was asked where would you draw the line? And he basically said, I would allow any educational pursuits that people are interested in. So that was his sort of take on this particular principle. But I think it's maybe the first thing is to differentiate between training and education. When he was talking about those things, we talked about instituting training on the job back when we talked about principle six, and he basically said the training is for a skill and a skill is something that's finite because it ends when performance has reached a stable state for a person when thinking about that particular skill. 0:01:51.3 JD: The differentiator with Principle 13 is that it's focused on education and it's meant for growth. And in the Deming philosophy, this is sort of a never ending process of education. So skills, so training is focused on skills, whereas education is focused on knowledge and theory. And this is really an important distinction in my mind, and you need both, training and education are complimentary components I think of an effective school system or really an effective organization in general. So I think, I mean, obviously training is important. It's something that's necessary, especially when you come into a new job. We have lots of new teachers that come to us 'cause we're a relatively young organization. And it's pretty typical for these new teachers to come even if they majored in education many times, they don't have sort of the basic classroom management skills, the basic lesson planning skills, the basic lesson delivery skills that they need to be successful in the classroom. 0:03:00.9 JD: So we have a training program, and in the absence of that training program the teachers would probably flounder or it would take a lot longer time to get their legs under them. So training is important, but we have to sort of shorten that runway. So we have to be good at training 'cause we're like a relatively young organization and we have students that come to us on average that are below grade level. And so they can't wait a long time for these sort of teachers to get up to speed. And I think we've talked about the fact that we have this sort of three week training program before the school year starts for new teachers for that reason. And so training is obviously important, very important. But I think what I've sort of come to appreciate is this idea of... And Deming stressed this, that leaders, systems leaders understand this idea of a stable system. 0:04:00.7 JD: One of the things that he said was that "The performance of anyone that can learn a skill will come to a stable state upon which further lessons will not bring improvement of performance." And this for me, reading Deming at this point in my career was really an interesting revelation because for many years I had heard sort of policymakers, education reform types sort of lament the fact that teachers improvement largely levels off in about year five of their career. Now, there has been some more recent longitudinal teacher research in terms of effectiveness over time. And basically people have found that that's not quite true. And that teaching experience is positively correlated with student achievement gains sort of across the teacher's career. But it's definitely true that the gains and effectiveness are steepest in those initial years. 0:04:55.2 JD: And so when you put those two ideas together that there's sort of this leveling off in about year five with Deming's sort of concept of stable systems, it really sort of dawned on me that it was this perfect explanation for this phenomenon. When a teacher is in their first five years there's a lot of foundational skills like the things I was talking about, like lesson planning, lesson delivery, classroom management, those basic things. There's sort of this period of rapid improvement or growth, and then it sort of levels off after you get the basics of how to be a teacher. And then after that happens, you have this... The potential for improvement sort of lies within the organization, within the system itself and not in the individual. So this really lined up with this thing I had heard for a long time, even though I think sort of it was misinterpreted. 0:05:52.0 JD: And I think a lot of those people that were talking about teacher skills leveling off after five years, they didn't have this lens of a stable system. They didn't have that part of it. And so they were saying, well, teachers aren't improving. Well, it really wasn't the teachers not improving. It was the fact that most of the capacity, like we've talked about here for improvement lies within the system itself and not the individuals. And I would also make the argument that this is not just educators, that this is other sectors as well, healthcare or whatever that thing is. 0:06:27.0 AS: Yeah. I mean, a good way of imagining that is a person who knows nothing that has the prerequisites, the education or whatever's necessary to get the job. And they know nothing about teaching and about the school system or anything that you can just imagine that so much of the initial phase is just understanding how the system, how they operate within that system to do certain tasks, which can be a process of trying to understand all of that. But then it's like they become, it's like entering the stream and then they become the stream floating down the river where everybody's kind of doing the same thing. And then you realize, okay, by this time now their, their, the amount that they can improve has been hit for some specific tasks and things like that. And then all of a sudden their output is a function of the system. 0:07:23.0 JD: Yeah. Yeah. And I think where this can really go off the rails is when people don't understand the stable state of systems. I think that, and I think a lot of the educators from reformers were sort of talking about it as if teachers were kind of replaceable because they didn't improve after those initial five years, especially 10 years ago that was sort of the common way people talked about this. And you could then sort of the next step is to draw the conclusion that experienced educators aren't that important since that improvement sort of levels off pretty early in their career. But I think that is the completely wrong conclusion to draw. I think experienced teachers are incredibly important because of the stability they provide a school. They can provide mentorship to inexperienced teachers, they have longstanding relationships with families as multiple students come through the system. 0:08:25.0 JD: That stability is really important for all those reasons, which are hopefully fairly obvious to anybody that's worked in a school. But I think even maybe more importantly is this idea that once teachers have that baseline level of knowledge and skills, they can run a classroom, they can deliver a well-planned lesson. The reason that it then becomes important for improvement to have those folks is because once those basic things are in place, now we can actually start to work on the system where the real potential for improvement lies. And I think that was a point that was missed or glossed over in a lot of those conversations about education reform and this idea of the teacher skills leveling off after year five. 0:09:23.8 AS: Mm-hmm. One of the the things about education that I have a story that's... I guess one of the conclusions is that the next level of improvement of the system oftentimes comes from outside the system. And that's where education takes the mind into another space. 0:09:40.9 JD: Yeah. 0:09:49.2 AS: From that other space, they're getting knowledge and theories of what's going on out there. And I had an example, John, that was... When I was the head of research at Citibank, and I had been head of research before taking care of a team of analysts, and analysts are always late in their reports, they're writing long reports about whether to buy or sell a company. They're trying to gather as much information, talk to the company, things get delayed. They set their deadlines and then they... The job of a head of research is juggling those delays so that the sales team and the clients need an idea day. And it's always the case that you're juggling around and okay, we don't have something this day, let's make something up with what we've got. Okay, this guy couldn't produce on that day, but he's gonna come in on Monday. So I felt pretty good about my skills at managing that process. And then I got a job at the number one foreign, the number one broker, let's say, or investment bank at that time in Asia called CLSA. And when I talked to them, I asked them how do you handle the flow and how bad is it here [chuckle] with the analysts being late? And they said, the analysts are never late. 0:11:13.3 AS: And I was like, that's impossible. My whole career it's been about handling the analysts being late. And they said, no, analysts are never late here. And I was like, how are you doing that? And they're like, well, we have a three week plan ahead. Everybody knows it. You know your day. There is no excuse, there's no shifting, there's nothing, it has to be delivered on that day. So it's up to you to kind of bring your project to a head so that you're ready to present on that day. And if you have some kind of major setback or problem, talk to another person and switch the day with them and sort it out. And every single day we had great stuff coming out. And I would've never, I mean, I was operating at a certain level thinking I was really knocking it out of the park, 'cause I was accommodating. I was careful, I was thoughtful. I understood the pressures that people were feeling. I was doing my best, but I didn't have a knowledge that it could be a very different way of doing it. And that's where I think about going outside of your own system to observe and learn and see. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, [laughter] Okay. And that's where I feel like what you're talking about, about the education aspect is really the most amazing part. 0:12:33.2 JD: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That actually... I hadn't planned to talk about this, but I've been reading recently about the... Called the... Well, there's a book called Toyota Kata and Kata is from martial arts. It's the various movements that you have to do sort of repeated deliberate practice so you can sort of, they become ingrained in your muscle memory. Well, the same idea is in place in Toyota. They call... Well, they don't, but the author called it... They don't call... They don't have a name for it, but he sort of observed it and gave it the Improvement Kata name Mike Rother. Yeah, there it is. Yep. There it is. That one. And one of the things that was interesting, and it kind of reminded me of this as you were talking, is that part of the improvement kata is there's a sort of a target that's aligned with the organization's vision that guides anything that the folks in the organization are working towards. 0:13:27.0 JD: And so there's always a target condition. There's an understanding of sort of where each individual is and the departments are. And they're always setting a new target on the way to that sort of vision target and running these experiments all the time. And they constantly set those targets so that they are ambitious but within reach. And then they're coached on the way repeatedly. And in that way they're sort of always moving forward the organization. And so I think of when you've changed investment banks and you're at this new bank and they're saying, Hey, this thing is possible, it's possible to do this. Here's the way we do that. Here's how we work towards that. And so you can imagine a place like Toyota being so successful, because if everybody has got this mindset, this scientific thinking where they're constantly moving towards a target and there's a method for doing so, [chuckle] that is an incredible education right there if you're an employee working in an environment like that. So that just made me think of the Toyota Kata. 0:14:41.4 AS: Yeah. And it's a great example of how reading books is part of education because you're getting exposed to new ideas and exploring and thinking about things. And that's where, well, think about the repetition in let's say a martial arts as an example. And when Dr. Deming talks about opening up education to everything for everybody, there's something to learn in almost everything out there. Like if it is about... What is it about those repetitions and why is that important and could that benefit our business? And he talked about painting and other things, you know? Like education very widely can bring you new ideas that can come back to improve your system. 0:15:27.3 JD: Yeah. And I think you have to invest in that sort of broader education, 'cause it's sort of an investment in the future, you know? Especially right now, things are changing fast. And you could have the best training program in the world, but if you are not also sort of looking out for what's next beyond that, to adapt to whatever's changing in your environment... A good example is this, we have a much better understanding of cognitive science than we did 20 years ago. And so if we didn't adapt... If we didn't sort of learn that and then adapt that and sort of include that learning in our training system that we're gonna start falling behind pretty quickly. And I think this can get... This may be part of the most important responsibility of a leader on the learning front. 0:16:28.5 JD: Because what I also see is that education leaders are often getting enticed by many, many fads that sort of come along. And so how to sort of actually latch onto something that represents a potential advantage, that's a real important skillset to have. And I don't think... That's a key... I think a key function of systems leaders is sort of to know what to let go of or what not to latch onto at all and what to sort of sink resources into because if you're gonna go do these educational pursuits, you're obviously gonna have to sink time and money resources into these things. And so being able to differentiate between what is good and what is bad is a real key skill. 0:17:22.6 AS: And one of the things about Toyota is it's like the ultimate Asian family business. And although it's now a big public company, the largest automaker in the world, and the family's ownings in the company is relatively low, it still has the influence of the family. And I was thinking about another huge company that I know of in Thailand here that shifted its focus away from, let's say, Deming in this case, to when a new CEO came in, he said, well, there's a different way and this is my way. And one of the things that's interesting about what Toyota's done, you know, Toyota gets a lot of blame for being slow to progress and stubborn and all of that, but man, they have built a machine and a... You just can't change the direction of that quickly, you really nurture what has been developed and how do you not just throw away. I was presenting to my students last night in my finance class here at Sasin School of Management in Thailand and I was showing them the DuPont Analysis in the world of finances where you break down the return on equity of a company. And I explained why they call it the DuPont Analysis, and that's because the DuPont company bought shares in General Motors in 20- or 1912 or something like that and they instituted this method of financial controls on General Motors. And I said to my students in passing, General Motors has been going bankrupt since 1912. [laughter] 0:19:00.9 AS: And it's like every... It's not a cumulative level of learning. And that's where I feel like Toyota, what Toyota has achieved is a cumulative learning process. 0:19:16.9 JD: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, and it's a part of their DNA. I think certainly there have been challenges as they've grown across Europe and the United States and the world really. And a lot of the challenges that I understand is because people... That improvement Kata is sort of combined with a coaching Kata, like an approach to coaching and managers at different levels coach folks that are sort of a level down from them. And everybody in the organization, especially early, had sort of this mentor-mentee relationship. And so part of the challenge with growth was the fact that there are only so many of these folks that are grounded in this scientific thinking in the coaching part of this. And so that was a challenge as they grew, you know, in California and Kentucky and other places across the world. 0:20:17.9 JD: They had to build this coaching capacity across all of these new production facilities and other types of facilities across the world. So... But I think that what I really like about this principle...I, you know, if push came to shove, I started this by talking about Deming would basically allow almost anything when it came to allowable educational pursuits. And I think I would be much closer to that than I would be to limit those things. I think that is a really... That's a good sort of approach to take as a leader. I think here where I am at United Schools Network, one of the things that I was able to do was go take an improvement advisor course which required significant resources and time and money at the Institute for Healthcare Improvement. 0:21:19.6 JD: And so someone could look at that very easily and say, well, why are you an educator going to a healthcare organization? And I think it's one of those things where people maybe don't realize that the Deming philosophy and some of the continual improvement stuff, it's sector agnostic. And so when you can learn the philosophy, the methods, the techniques, you can bring them back to your own organization. So I think had I not gone down this path to study Deming, I wouldn't have made it to IHI and then bring this stuff back to my organization. I think it's benefited our organization in lots of ways, even though that might not have been immediately apparent to folks, you know, initially. 0:22:09.8 AS: So how would we wrap this up for the listeners to make sure that they truly understand the idea of vigorous education, self-improvement, this type of stuff? 0:22:14.0 JD: Yeah. I mean, for me the main point is that systems leaders should really encourage education among the whole workforce with a pretty wide latitude for allowable pursuits. I think especially for educators, when we seek those types of opportunities, we're also modeling this idea of continual learning to students as well. They see that just because I have a degree or a master's degree or even folks here that have a PhD, we have I think an organization that's pretty hungry for learning. And that's a model for students. Oh, this doesn't end when you graduate high school. This doesn't end when you graduate college. It doesn't even end when you graduate from graduate school. People all across the organization have books piled up on their desks and we're sending people to various learning programs and stuff like that. 0:23:09.4 JD: And I think that's a good model for students. And I think within that another big thing is to think about do you have an understanding of the stable state of systems and understanding that training programs are only gonna take you so far? Individuals are gonna come to a sort of a stable state once they've sort of maxed out on any particular skill. And that's why this idea of education is so important. Skills are important, training is important, but this other side of the coin, you have to pay attention to education. What's on the horizon? How are you gonna push the boundaries within your system? And I actually think to your point about outsiders or having an outside perspective, that's sort of, I think the benefit of education, because I think without that sort of push from an outsider, the push from the education, breakthrough improvements aren't possible in our school systems. They're not gonna come from training programs. They're gonna come from this continuous learning, this idea of continually pushing the targets, having sort of an improvement mindset. Having a coaching mindset that's always pushing towards those things. And I think this requires not just skills, but it requires new knowledge and new theory continually. And I think that has to come from this vigorous program of education. 0:24:39.7 AS: And the beauty of capitalism is that if you don't go out and get the education, your competitors will, and you don't want your source of learning to be facing constant defeat from your competitors. [laughter] 0:24:56.2 JD: Yeah, you can't sit around and wait, that's for sure. That's for sure. 0:25:00.0 AS: Exactly. Or someone's gonna take it. And that's the beauty of the capitalist system, the adversarial aspect between companies definitely gets people riled up when they see that all of a sudden someone's doing much better with some new technique or idea. Well, I think that was a great discussion to help us understand the difference between training and education and why it's so important. John, on behalf of everyone at the Deming Institute, I want to thank you again for this discussion. For listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. You can find John's book "Win-Win: W. Edwards Deming, the System of Profound Knowledge and the Science of Improving Schools" on amazon.com. This is your host, Andrew Stotz. And I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. "People are entitled to joy in work."

141: Jim Huntzinger

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 23, 2024 23:51

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.KataCon10 in Indianapolis April 9-10, 2024Transcript: Agile F M radio for the agile community. [00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Agile FM. I'm here today with Jim Huntzinger, who is speaking with me about behavioral patterns. We'll talk a little about the history of Kata. This is the Agile Kata series on Agile FM. So my goal is to bring you people closer from the Kata community to the Agile community and build bridges.So Jim is here with me today. Welcome to the show. [00:00:35] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. Thank you, Joe. It's great to be here with you. [00:00:37] Joe Krebs: Yeah, and Jim, you are with the Lean Frontiers and as the name indicates, Frontier on many things including the KataCon conference, or actually there's different kind of names, but it emerged.And for all the listeners here on Agile FM who have been going to Agile conferences for a long time, and they are hearing possibly about Kata the very first time they would be surprised that this is going into the 10th year, this conference, the KataCon this year in 2024, and it's going to be in Indiana, [00:01:12] Jim Huntzinger: Indianapolis, you have caught a content in Indianapolis.So yeah, part of will be celebrating I guess the 10th birthday for it at the conference. [00:01:19] Joe Krebs: That is awesome. 10 years in the making, obviously, we want to go down memory lane a little bit together. Today there was obviously a starting point where you got exposed into Kata and scientific thinking.And I would like to go back, like, how did this all start for you? And for all the listeners here, what is an interesting piece of information is there is A person out there who started it like way, way back, 1890s, even. So, let's go [00:01:50] Jim Huntzinger: 1830s around the [00:01:52] Joe Krebs: 1830s, Jim, how did this all start for you?[00:01:57] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. So, so yeah, I'll tell a little bit about, I'll tell my background, which a little bit of my history, which will bring in some of the. Older history that correlates and also a lot with TWI training within industry, which correlates as well too, and that'll actually come together on kind of that scientific thinking and scientific behavior.So anyway, when I came out of school, I my first job out of school was with a company that was a Toyota group company. That was in the process of transplanting in North America to support the Toyota plants. At that time there was the Toyota in Canada, the NUMMI plant, the joint venture with General Motors in California, and the Georgetown plant, which wasn't even started yet.It was, They were still setting it up at the time I started. And I went to work for Aisin, and they were a Toyota group company. And it's obviously a supplier into the transplanting here to supply into those plants. So, you know, part of my responsibility, I was a manufacturing engineer was helping ramp up the manufacturing processes.As we as we ramped up the plant and when I got there, my half the plant wasn't even built yet. So I was there through the actual construction of half the plant and we were doing great components drums, rotors brake boosters, oil pumps, water pumps on my part of the plant. So I went to Japan for nine weeks to train on the processes we had, the products.I went to different Aisin plants. where the products were made Toyota plant and also get training on the Toyota production system, which at that time didn't really have any meaning to me, you know, but we learned it. So came back and went through that ramp up process. To do that. So from there I left because I want to get more involved in the upfront process development because that was done by the Japanese of engineers, of course.So I moved to Wisconsin and took a job with Briggs and Stratton, who at that time, this is in 1990, were one of the first companies to really do some of the this lean stuff, trying to physically do it. So I was brought in here because supposedly I knew something about TPS, you know, haven't worked for Aisin.But the nice thing about that is basically we had a sandbox to play in. The guy I worked for said go find something you're interested in. Obviously it's beneficial to the company and go do it. So we were, you know, implementing flow production at a relatively now, even looking back now, 30 years, 30 plus years at a very rampant rate across the plant.So we did machining. And assembly of small engines for Briggs and Stratton. Now, the nice thing with me working for Aisin, even though it was a Toyota group company had TPS in it versus Toyota. Obviously Toyota is the practitioner of TPS, but their product is a great big, huge automobile. So you don't physically get all those correlations as easily since it's this big product versus when I worked for Aisin who made components.So the components correlated to the components we made at Briggs of doing one piece flow. So we were doing that, putting in standard work. We got involved with the Shingijutsu out of Japan. And we were doing, we internalized our own Kaizen workshops to do all that, implementing this. So in the course of doing that we changed the plan around entirely and actually a very rapid time all considering.And even to this day, let's go back 30 years ago, the basic designs of the cells, you know, one of these slow cells were actually. Pretty good. The things and attributes we did were very much one piece flow. So partially correlating it to Kata you know, one thing with the improvement Kata is you need to understand your direction or the challenge.Well, essentially our challenge back then was One piece flow, everything we did, we wanted to achieve one piece flow. And in that we had machines, obviously mostly machining the, actually some of the grinders I worked with when I got the manuals to them, the date on the manuals was prior to the U S being bombed at Pearl Harbor.So we had machine tools of that old up to an old, every place in between, you know, newer CNC equipment. So we're trying to put all this into true one piece flow. Now, we did that successfully, but the problem is we couldn't get the consistency that I had seen at Aisin of the consistency of output, consistency to tactile.And I, I didn't really know why, but I knew, you know, working for, you know, Japanese company, actually even some of the managers and engineers here, 37 years later, I still stay in contact with. Japanese are humans like everybody else. I knew they had to have some thing, whatever this thing was. That they were using that we just didn't know about and all that.So over the course of time, I ended up a number of years later, writing a couple books were published, one by Jeff Liker and one by Masaaki Imai. Jeff Liker's, I think, first book Becoming Lean and the one by Misaaki Imai, Gemba Kaizen, around 1997. And I read Liker's book and in it, it mentions this thing called TWI, Training Within Industry, in about a sentence or two.And I thought, what, and World War II program. I thought, what the heck does some World War II program have to do with the Toyota production system? Well, that's interesting, move on. The, about two months later, I miss, Imai's book, it has a couple pages discussing training with industries. And I just, I've got to find out what the heck some World War II program has to do with the Toyota production system.So I started diving into it. Just to jump forward a few years, it took me a while to dig. I was calling Washington, D. C., the archives, just trying to gather up information. And eventually, finding that the Depository Libraries of the United States was supposed to have information on it in the Milwaukee Public Library I finally found some information that there was a report done, which I was able to, in the library alone, to get this 300 page TWI, post World War II, written 1945 report.Got it, went to Kinko's, made copies of it, and then sat on it because I thought, I don't know how excited I am to read a 300 page government report. But eventually I went through all the work to get it. So I eventually pulled down and read it and started reading it. And I couldn't believe what I was reading.What I was reading through the report was it was correlating some of the things I had learned, you know, somewhat indirectly at Aisin. And also when we use the Shingijutsu group, some of the verbiage, it gave me the link to the manuals they use during the war. So I was able to start getting those through a library loan.And as I got the first one, the job methods. One is about improvement and read it. The language verbatim in that manual from 1943 was verbatim. What we had learned with like in Shingijutsu and some of that stuff. But now I understood the source. I understand what it's doing. So that kind of started this, the TWI.Now that now the importance of this TWI is if you look at all the main programs, job instruction is about training. Job methods is about improvement and job relations is about leadership and people problems. All of them used. I have some of the cards here. All of them use a the four step four step methodology based on the scientific method.Now the history with TWI because I got into that is it goes back to at least 1830. So a German philosopher and educator named Johann Harbert had developed a five step program to educate kids. Pedagogy. Five step method. In the 1830s. So in Europe, there are people, they called him herbations.So European herbations that followed his philosophy American herbations that did too. And one of them was a guy by the name of Charles Allen, Charles Skipper Allen. And I, and he was one and he took Harbert's five step methodology and he put it into a four step method, methodology that he called job instruction.And he wrote a book. He wrote a book on it. Around 1918. It's like a 500 page book just on the four step method. It's an amazing book. So in depth, but basically that job instruction when we get when the U. S. Got into World War Two, the guys they put in charge of the T. W. I. Program 3 of the four that were in charge of it.One had worked for Alan directly. The other two have been trained by so they pulled that job instruction forward. Yeah. And that became TWI job instruction and eventually pulling from some other, I won't go through all that history job methods, which is I industrial engineering techniques. That really has their base in the Gilbreth, some of the pioneers in industrial engineering and a guy named Alan Mogenson put that into place.So that was the instructing, the improvement, and then eventually job relations was leadership. So that comes into Toyota post World War II in the early 1950s, as Ono had struggled implementing flow production, trying to emulate the Ford motor company. One piece flow, as we call it today. And he'd struggled with it in their machine shop for about eight years.When the TWI program came in during the post war occupation through their training department, Ohno grabbed onto that. J I all three of them, J I J M and J R. And that's when he started succeeding. Yeah. So see implementing flow production, trying to emulate early Ford motor company. Yeah. So it's all based on a scientific method.[00:11:12] Joe Krebs: Absolutely. And this is, I think this is where we're, we want to go with it. It's the second, this is a great that you're going back in time because I think this is important for everybody to see that this is not like the latest, greatest trend that just emerged just recently. And we'll you were talking about Kata, you know, in a brand new way this has been a well established thinking patterns.Now just to go quickly back to this Johan n Harbart he if I understand this, right, he applied this in a five steps. But that was more on the educational level. He's redesigned instruction for kids in schools, I would assume, and colleges. And so, [00:11:50] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. So it's for educating kids pedagogy type of thing, although it's very much on.On practicing, which again correlates to what Charles Alan did. He Charles Allen was actually vocational trainer. That's why he was a probation and took that and put it into, because he was trying to train people, especially in shipbuilding on, in, in the, you know, night 1890s, 19. Early 1900s and all that.So he was trying to train people. So it was a very pragmatic way to, to educate children by practice. And he put that into, in a way, educating, training people in vocational training. [00:12:26] Joe Krebs: Yeah. So as a community of Kata thinking, we could say we're speeding things up quite a bit now. Like there were 1830s, 1890s, 1900s 20th century, right?But now things get really into motion and we, you mentioned some of those books the, we're increasing the rate of publications, I think that's what's what has been seen. So I think. Scientific thinking applied outside of education possibly even outside of lean manufacturing becomes really interesting.And that's why we have you on the, in the Agile Kata series, right? How can these things possibly influence things outside of lean manufacturing? [00:13:02] Jim Huntzinger: And I want to, and I'll bring this to Toyota. So, the TWI stuff, as I researched, it was the late 1990s. And very early 2000s. So Mike publishes Toyota Kata in 2009.So, so I got that and read it. And Mike's always been a person that just does a good job of taking things, parsing them down and articulating them very succinctly. Mike's always been very good at that. So I read Toyota Kata and I'm going, what I'm reading through there, I love because this is exactly the behavioral patterns we were doing back in my days.When we were implementing it, Briggs and Stratton. Now we weren't doing it near to the prescriptive level, near to the discipline level, near to any of that, that Mike was doing, but the fundamental patterns. We were doing like for example, like I said, our challenge was one piece flow. We would have to go out and establish the current condition.We didn't use that terminology, the current condition, the machines or the processes as they were, and then we'd have a what our target condition was, how do we put those into one piece flow and we would go through iterative steps. We were practicing scientific method is mainly because we didn't have a choice.We weren't quite sure what we were doing. So we had to go through these iterative steps to figure it out. So experimentation, like Mike says, and my favorite diagram he has in Toyota Kata, he has the one where, you know, on each end, he has the current condition and a target condition. Then kind of in between them is this unclear territory.And that's why I related to it so much. That's exactly what we were doing when we were doing that lean thinking what now all the, you know, there's a few books but not much. There was no internet. So we had literally do this, learn by doing, which actually came from TWI actually learn by doing. So we were doing it through iterative steps, this unclear territory to get it.So that's why the Toyota kind of related to me. And then it gave a pattern, a better, more prescriptive pattern. And also too, when Mike was researching that, as he looked at these different companies, practicing it, none of them did it exactly alike. They had their own way. But of course, again, that's what Mike's good.He had to put it into something a little more prescriptive in order to articulate it back out to everybody, so people could grasp it, you could practice it, people could learn it. Right. And ultimately it is, and that's why the book, I have it here. Sylvain Landry's book bringing scientific to life is so important because that's really, that's what TWI is practicing scientific behavioral patterns, Kata goes through that practicing scientific behavioral patterns so that.You don't think your way through practice, you practice your way to thinking.. And that's what these are about. And that's why again, Toyota Kata is. So important about practicing so you get in that pattern, it just becomes natural and instinctive. [00:15:42] Joe Krebs: Oh, yes. And the terminology as you said, you reused other terms, right? I think when people are looking at these behavioral patterns, they're realizing, Oh, these are things I have done in a very similar way.And that's good. Right. And you might have used different terminology. I think the benefit of using a consistent terminology within an organization, let's say. It's obviously we all know what, where we are in terms of the journey, but that might change over time. Right? So I think as long as the pattern stays the same, the behavioral patterns.Yeah, one thing with that, I'd like to say over the years is I'll use this and this illustrates the importance of practice and continuing practice. So I say if if you're not using Kata or even TWI the same in three months, that's a problem. Because you need to practice the pattern, practice the behavior.But the other part of that is, if you're using if you're using Kata or TWI the same in three years, that's a problem. Because you should be learning it, so it becomes instinctive, so you do expand out your ability to use it. And it can be used, I realize, anywhere there's people and processes. You can use it.It doesn't have to be in manufacturing. It could be in healthcare. People are successfully using healthcare. In some of the insurance companies, I know people are using these. Anywhere there's people and processes, it's a, it helps you to be more successful because you're using that pattern, those behavioral patterns of scientific thinking.Yeah. To solve problems and move to a better level. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Your KataCon conference, just to come back to that for one more moment, it's like, I think it's a representation of exactly what you just said. It's like who comes to these conferences, right? It's a broad mix of people. Yes.[00:17:25] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. Yes. Broad mix of people out of different industries, broad mix of people at different levels along their journey. [00:17:33] Joe Krebs: Yeah. And you're all running as part of these conferences or you have ran these kind of onsite, but also workshops in parallel to these conferences, right? But they are more focused on the lean manufacturing side, if I'm not mistaken, right?But that is very hands on practical skills. Yeah, [00:17:49] Jim Huntzinger: Very hands on. In the case, the comp, so the conference we try, what we do is try to bring together the community. So we, with Lean Frontiers, I guess we like to say we like to build communities within the lean community. So, you know, we've had a lean accounting communities, of course, the Kata community with KataCon, TWI community, product, you know, lean product development, so communities within there.And it's a chance what we want to do is bring together thought leaders, practitioners, sometimes academics, people to come in and just share what they're doing and learning with each other within that community. With our intent is hopefully people make connections and get to know each other. So we don't, we just don't want them there together.You know, the two days or three days of the conference, we like to make them good networking connections. So as they go out the other 300 and some days out of the year they talk with each other. They communicate, they, they help, they share, try to bring what's going on together. So people go out and do good things with it and hopefully come back a year later.Continue to share what they've learned over the last year. Yeah. [00:18:47] Joe Krebs: And Jim how, like for somebody who is like maybe in the agile community right now, it says, this sounds very interesting. I'm listening to the Kata series. I'm starting to maybe read one of the books you you mentioned you on this podcast, how.What's the speaking situation? Like, who's speaking? What's the format of this conference? Because the scientific thinking is you know, is obviously in the forefront of that and the behavioral patterns you're pointing out. But what's the format? Or do people have to envision this conference to look like it's two days, right?[00:19:17] Jim Huntzinger: So what we do with the KataCon, actually, we actually run the KataSummit, KataCon same thing. And the TWI Summit, we run them concurrently. Because there's obviously, just because of the deliberate practice and scientific, there's so much correlation. But we always like to say, if people want to come and all they want to do is Kata, we got them covered.All they want to do is TWI, got you covered. If they want to mix it up, however much they want, they can do that. But we have, Keynotes and our keynotes are usually shorter. Try to make them just the pace, you know, like shorter 15 or 20 minute keynotes we have going on. We have breakout sessions where some are by practitioners.So you're learning what people are doing in companies, some by some thought leaders where they could expand a little bit more. A lot of times they're usually working with companies about what they're doing. We have some deep dive sessions where they're even a little bit longer. They're almost like a, kind of a mini sub workshop where people can go in and practice, you know, some of the aspects a little bit more.We actually have workshops. We have like a level set, a TWI level set and a kata, like their half day kata level set. So if you're kind of new, you could come in and kind of get up to a baseline. So you can, that's pre summit. So you can get more out of the summit, but we have some workshops and then even.Post summit. We have a Kata dojo workshop by Tilo Schwartz, who him with just another good book, giving wings to your team and all that. And we also do the 10 hour session so that TWI was trained actually the same format. It was used during the war, these 10 hour sessions. So there's five two hour sessions.So we run those think we're running for one for job instruction and job relations post summit and also one for Toyota Kata. Where they go through most of the improvement kata, but some on the coaching kata also a 10 hour training so people could come out and get, you know, like a certification on they can go, you know, know how to go practice and those are really practice based kind of workshops, a 10 hour training.[00:21:14] Joe Krebs: And I think that's also important, right? Because it is about practicing scientific thinking. So the practice piece needs to come in. I think for what was pretty awesome in this episode, I want to thank you for that is your background and how you know, take us on this journey of how this all started, but also how deeply rooted it is in many things we do as humans in various different kinds of industries.And even though it's only a small piece of history of what we just covered. The 10 years of KataCon is significant. It's a huge accomplishment. I want to thank you for putting this out there and putting your energy into organize something like this as an a past conference organizer myself. I know how much work that is.[00:21:58] Jim Huntzinger: One of the thing I might touch on because this is also about practicing is we have these are outside of that. the summit. But we have a couple workshops, one called skill point, one called skills lab where you go practice, you go learn TWI and also Toyota Kata. But it's actually on a full scale simulator.So it's a life size line. Now, the reason I'm bringing that up is you learn these skills because these are about skills. you skill of the Toyota Kata, the skill of improvement, Kata skill of the coaching kata. Same thing with TWI, but it's always interesting when we run those workshops we used have people from different companies come in and literally by the end of day one, and certainly by the day two there, these three day workshops, you would think these people had worked together for 10 years.Even though for different industries, different companies, and that's not something we're directly trying to do. So the whole working together as a team and all that, that when you practice these things together, by default, you'll reap that benefit of people understanding each other, people working collaborative together.So it's been fascinating to watch those. Workshops and watch that just spontaneously happen that these people look, I said, they look like they've been working together for 10 years and just met less than 24 hours before. [00:23:12] Joe Krebs: Yeah, it's amazing. Great bonding, right? If you have a shared goal and you work as a team and you collaborate and you have the same language and can navigate.That's fantastic. Jim, I want to thank you. On the show page people will find a way of finding the conference for sure. They can also just Google KataCon and and get in touch and get their tickets and meet you in April in 2024 in Indianapolis. Thank you, Jim. [00:23:39] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. Indianapolis.Thank you so much, Joe. Yeah. Looking forward to it and thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today.

140: Kelly Mallery

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 16, 2024 35:38

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.Transcript: Agile.FM Radio for the Agile Community.[00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Welcome to another episode of Agile FM. And this is a podcast as part of the theme of the Agile Kata series. And I have here today with me, Kelly Mallory, who is an operational excellence leader in a manufacturing facility in New England. Outside of her job, she supports the Kata Geek Girls and the Kata School North east where she is located as so am I here in New York. She is a little further up. Her aim is to spread the knowledge of color scientific thinking to more and more people through these communities. And obviously making the world a better place, which is a big goal we have here in mind. So I'm super excited to have you on the show here, Callie welcome.[00:00:56] Kelly Mallery: Thanks Joe. I'm really excited to be here. [00:00:59] Joe Krebs: Kelly, we are doing something a little bit different here on this podcast as an other podcast where we sometimes speak with authors about their book. We're talking about somebody else's book today. That's going to be Sylvain Landry's book, bringing scientific thinking to life.And we just thought about maybe picking a few items and talk about this this book, which was I don't know, maybe a year ago or so in 2022 or so released relatively new book in the Kata bookshelf. And we want to take a few segments out of the book and obviously then talk about the segments on a broader context.So when obviously we want to bring your experience in as well. Yeah. Sounds great. All right. So let's one of the segments we and I was thinking of like possibly reading out the segment first, so that listeners have a little bit of an idea where this is coming from, obviously all from the same book.And, the first one would be about the improvement Kata is fractal. And in other words, the improvement Kata is fractal, basically the same pattern at all levels, which makes it a meta skill, a target condition or a major obstacle at the strategic level. could in turn become the challenge for the level below and so on.The overall challenge reappears in successive smaller challenges as you move down in the organization and each of those challenges is reached by striving for successive target conditions. This fosters strategic alignment, connect strategy and execution and becomes a source of dialogue, coherence and motivation across the organization, not At least because people at all levels are practicing the same basic scientific way of thinking and acting.Now that's the segment we want to touch on first a little bit on from Sylvan's book. That would be on page 41. If somebody actually has the book in front of them listening to this. This is an interesting one because in the agile community when we are talking about processes like scrum, for example, Kanban there's always a conversation about how does that scale, how does that go into the large, how do we depart from a team to a larger level of the organization.I think that piece here from Sylvain's book hits that right at the mark because it shows how. It possibly could scale. What's your take on that segment from surveillance point? [00:03:29] Kelly Mallery: Yeah, I agree. And my experience in various manufacturing facilities. This comes in from a strategic planning standpoint.That's where my mind immediately goes where. At the highest levels of a company or an organization, you develop strategic plans and visions that are five to 10 years out. And then the expectation is it cascades down to the next level and the time horizon changes. But where I have seen this breakdown is some of that connection and embedding scientific thinking inside of that process.And what I believe Sylvain is talking about here is. Taking that strategic vision and. Morphing it more into the improvement Kata framework. . And how there is a deeper connection then at every level of the organization. Where the vision for a company that's five to 10 years out cascades down into three to five year strategic targets, which become the challenge.At the next level down. . And then they cascade that down to one year achievement targets, which can be cascaded to challenges there. . I love to think about this in the context of how beautiful those coaching interactions would become and how connected the organization becomes in that unified way of thinking.[00:04:58] Joe Krebs: And what I like about this is also that there is a as you just said there is even on the highest strategic level, there's still a goal. There's still something they would like to achieve. Now that might be on a much, much longer radius. In terms of the timeline and size of of the challenge, I remember at in the old days, it's probably not up to date anymore, but at Mercedes Benz, there was a product cycle of development for a new car was about like every seven years, a new car came out, right?From a model and so that is a longer period of time, obviously that is not something you can get some really concrete action items out of it as a team or as an employee. And I think that's, works very nice here in terms of his explanation. And when you read this, these basic steps of scientific thinking, how they trickle down into a small level, how do we break those seven years down?I think that's what he means by that, right? [00:05:49] Kelly Mallery: Yeah, agreed. And I like what you mentioned about the connection of that longer term strategy to the people doing the work. And what I think this, the fractal nature of the improvement kata really helps with there is breaking down that challenge into target conditions that are more achievable and manageable.And inside of that. You have to have right outcome metrics, which tell you, yes, we have achieved that, but there's the leading indicator process level metrics that you experiment against. So it does become much easier to take those big grandiose goals and create really tangible measures and therefore actions and experiments at The people doing the works level so that they can feel connected to the higher level strategy and know exactly on any given day, how do I contribute to that as an individual?How does my work matter? ., absolutely. And I, what I also think is fascinating when he points out that the scientific thinking process is the exact same at all levels. And I think that is an interesting point for linking this is to the agile community where there are other processes, if you're scaling or if you're integrating other parts of the organization, that's actually very different here.[00:07:14] Joe Krebs: I think that's a huge difference we can carve out is the pattern of scientific thinking is still the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:07:28] Kelly Mallery: It is. And it doesn't matter, right? The scope or scale of the work. So if you're working at a CEO COO level, you have a challenge that is very high level and your process for scientific thinking, the difference may just be the time scale.Yeah. And then at the ground floor where the day to day work is done. You're looking, your time horizon is much shorter, but the thinking process stays the exact same. It is wonderful. And imagine, I love imagining, because I have not yet experienced this. And I say yet, because I hope to. An entire organization where everybody has that thinking pattern.And just imagine what you could achieve. [00:08:16] Joe Krebs: Yeah, that is true, right? Obviously, there are some examples on Toyota, but we don't know if that's the exact same thinking pattern in all parts of a very large organization. So that will be very hard. Have you personally experienced any of these levels, not in the entire organization, working with unstrategic items versus very tactical and seeing that in action, what Silvani is talking about?[00:08:43] Kelly Mallery: I have in pockets. So in probably mid 2023 I was a part of a team rolling out strategy and we were looking at it from a cascading challenges perspective. So we got as far as. Taking the site level strategy and actions developing. Okay, the outcome metrics. What does that challenge statement look like?What might the process measures be for that? And therefore, what would the next level downs challenge be? And so we went through that catch ball process of cascading those challenges down. And then beginning to see what the tactical target conditions and experiments would be. So I began to see some of that, but that scale was, it confined to a single shop inside of one value stream.However, what I saw was the clarity that drove up and down the organization. As far as where are we going and how does each level connect to that? Yeah, I think [00:09:51] Joe Krebs: That's a good point, right? Also in terms of a vocabulary, right? So let's say you work with an executive leadership team and you're talking about a target condition and you're working with a team and you're talking about the target condition and you're bringing these streams together for communication.Everybody knows what a target condition is. SO there's not a separate process. It's not like leadership is working with this or in terms of agile teams. That could be safe as a process where it was money's using safe to scale or Nexus or or Scrum at scale or less. And in all of those things so these would be different terminology and vocabulary, which is not the case in this one, which I think is a huge benefit of that.Kelly if you're okay with that let's move on to a second piece of the book. Yes. Okay, and that would be a Toyota Kata and Lean which readers, if you are interested in following up on this topics, that would be somewhere between, I think, 84 and the page here. So that would be chapter six.So the segment here is for the past 25 to 30 years, lean efforts in most organizations have focused on implementing lean tools and practices that were. Benchmarked and copied from Toyota and on eliminating waste through three to five day Kaizen events run by Lean office staff in indeed as Leico Jeffrey Leico in this case mentions too many people think about Lean as a mechanistic process of applying off the shelf solutions to an organization's problems.This is decidedly unscientific compared to these Implementing an event based approaches to continuous improvement. Toyota CARA is clearly about skill building application practice through daily improvement that's aligned with the organization's strategic objectives. Now, that segment, there's a lot of stuff in here to to unpack.What's your take on this segment? It's another highlight of Sylvain's book. There's a lot in there which we can connect to agile, but I'll let you go first. [00:11:59] Kelly Mallery: I, I remember reading this book and when I read this this section I felt like I needed to facepalm a little bit because my entire career of 10 years in manufacturing has been focused on CI and lean and reading this, I had that, oh my gosh.Duh, this is why what I have seen with lean and continuous improvement initiatives have not gone so well and why sustainment is hard because we cherry pick a solution thinking that's exactly what is needed in any given situation compared to really Understanding the problem and determining and figuring out through experimenting, what's the best solution for this problem using guidance and principles from what Toyota has developed from those tools.But if you think about how they got there they developed the tools based on a problem they had. And then because of their success, we assume that just using the tools in that way means we can take them, copy and paste, but I've never seen that work. [00:13:09] Joe Krebs: Yes. And I think in the agile community, we have a very good example for that.There's even something called the Spotify model. So that's a way of Spotify working in agile ways, and they're very transparent about how they operate and make diagrams out of it. And then people follow these things in a totally different company. And and sometimes they often they struggle, sometimes they fail.Because they're applying a solution to for something that was created based on a very unique problem of a company that is in the digital music industry. And that might not work for somebody in a different industry. But the idea is, how do I come up with that model? And I think that's what this is all about, right?So Kada could bring you to, to a model like this. You can say it could be a Spotify model, or there could be a company X, Y, C model that was created using the Kata. And I came up with my own model. Now, inspiration is great. I think that's always good to look outside of your organization and see what's there.But I do think the Kata can help you guide you, steer you into the right direction, I believe. [00:14:14] Kelly Mallery: Agreed. And I think that starting with models or artifacts that already exist. Is great and a wonderful place to start maybe for a first target condition, say, let's try to execute this model or work within this artifact that already exists and see what happens.But I think what's important there and what we miss a lot in this community when we take tools and try to implement them is really observing how is this working in our environment and what can we learn from that? and adjust as needed. Keeping principles in mind over a specific tool. [00:14:56] Joe Krebs: Yeah.What do you think about the following? The, I noticed a sentence that is really specific to, the Kaizen events so the Kaizen events he's pointing out obviously it's more like a philosophy within an organization. However PARA thinking is continuous and there are some organizations that are using, I think that's.I don't want to put words in Sven's mouth here, but maybe he mentions like something like Kaizen events, which are very workshoppy kind of environments where we have a single improvement in mind solving that. And then we feel good about that. Whereas Kata would be possibly improving that, but then continuing improving, right?I think there is a subtle difference. How does that relate for you in terms of Kata and where you come from and what you do in terms of Kaizen versus Kata, continuous work versus workshop for improvements. And then having these feel good moments, it's we're done, we have improved.Everybody's great. But the journey should continue, [00:16:02] Kelly Mallery: right? Yeah. Agreed. My experience with that is very aligned with what you've talked about and what the talks about where my first events that I was part of and facilitated. We're very much, very good prep, good scientific thinking inside of the event, but then Friday comes noon and the report outcomes and you wash your hands of it and you say, look at everything we did.And then sustainment happens, but that's more a check the box and an action newspaper compared to continual learning right at that phase. It's just about implementing and not necessarily experimenting. And my, when I began to learn and practice the improvement kata, I started experimenting with kata inside of Kaizen events over the last couple of years in 2022 and 2023 and found some really wonderful things could happen from that where you can embed coaching cycles inside of the event, get people acclimated to that and that thinking.And then post event. It's not so much about implementing actions, but it then becomes about, okay what's our target condition in this situation are the metrics we expected to achieve from this event? Are we performing to that? And if not, wonderful. What obstacles are preventing us? What are we going to do next?And it becomes more about continued experimenting and learning and not implementing further actions. [00:17:38] Joe Krebs: And it doesn't feel so hard then on the individuals either. It's just Oh, this is this improvement effort now. And how do we go about it? And how do we structure this? And what's the timeline on it?Because you're replacing it with scientific thinking. It's ongoing. It's your new habit. It's there's no interrupt not to the way of how you work, but also what you produce, right? Because you're producing while you're not improving for the next three months and not producing anymore. You're Yeah, [00:18:06] Kelly Mallery: and I think an important thing to shift your mindset about when you, if you want to pursue this kind of thinking inside of events is that an event, a Kaizen event then becomes accelerated target conditions and coaching cycles.So your preparation phase is that initial grasping the current condition. And inside of the event, you strive for multiple target conditions, and you have a focused effort on that. And then afterward, it just becomes a normal target condition and experimenting so that You can continue that learning, and I agree.I think then what has to happen is going into an event. It's not about what is the exact solution we're trying to achieve. It becomes really about do I understand the problem and our current condition, and it does take away a lot of pressure and stress, especially from a facilitator standpoint, which I can speak to, about having to know exactly how it's going to work out and what that solution is going to be. Instead, I just focus on the thinking and the process. And then to your point, it should become more about continued learning and experimenting and not about an action plan afterward. [00:19:27] Joe Krebs: Yeah. What if companies out there already do these kind of improvement workshops?Let's say there was a company and they have the occasional or rhythmic Improvement efforts, but they say we believe in improvement. We have quarterly sessions where we discuss these things and we do certain things. And then after that, we go back to our regular business until the next improvement effort is going to take place.So it could be periodic or not, or rhythmic. Kaizen, let's say, or Kaizen events, right? There's a huge opportunity for using those events to start with Kata, right? So it's actually using them as a. As an as an entry entrance to, to cut us like, okay, this is an event. Why don't we approach that as usual, but then introducing Cata for long lasting change and continuous change.How do you feel about that? [00:20:18] Kelly Mallery: I think that's a brilliant idea because then also you're not trying to add another thing to learn about you embedded into a system that you already have. And then it's just about changing the way that you practice for those events, right? We no longer practice building action plans and practicing accountability.We practice establishing target conditions and experimenting to them and coaching to that. [00:20:49] Joe Krebs: Okay. All right. Awesome. Kelly, number three, shall we do it? Yes. Okay. Here's another soundbite artifacts or mindset question mark, both exclamation point. That's something you would find in pages one 26 to one 29 in Sylvain Landry's book bringing scientific thinking to life.As Leiker and Meyer, 2006 emphasized, the Toyota Kata is about tacit knowledge, non explicit procedural knowledge. Tacit knowledge is the craft type of knowledge that you gain from experience. In the practice practice and reflection rather than from reading a recipe. Of course, there are also specific artifacts such as work standards, A3s, and kanbans that are distinctive elements of the Toyota production system.Perhaps they too can be viewed as a form of cutout or practice routine at Toyota, where they are combined with feedback from a seasoned Toyota coach. So we are exploring artifact versus mindset. For the agile community, that is also a very comical as a tools, a lot of like just to put that out as a lot of agile teams that are using a tool like JIRA from Atlassian and and they feel like.That is agile, like by using the tool or in this particular case, applying a specific artifact or a recipe for some sort. And here, so then makes a connection between both of them. How do you see this shape? [00:22:18] Kelly Mallery: Yeah I've actually had some recent experience with this in about November of 2023.The company I had been working for decided to. rollout, and I will say rollout CADA practice. And the questions that came from that are what is this new thing? Does this replace anything? What if, does this replace A3? Does this replace practical problem solving? And then we ended up getting into large debates about, do you need a storyboard?Do you need the artifact? And lots of schools of thought, and we can go deep into the whole starter kata conversation. buT ultimately scientific thinking and practicing the improvement kata is inside of every lean tool every agile tool, every problem solving. And so the artifact needs to be there to help you learn and practice.But beyond that, once you have that mastery or at least competence, then it's important to understand that it's a thinking process. And that means you don't have to have a board or an A3 in front of you to think scientifically. But the conversations I had, people got very stuck on. I cannot do this if I don't have a storyboard.And they begin to connect the artifact with the thinking process. And I think that's where those questions came from of is Kata replacing something. And so I think as people, we get stuck on needing a physical artifact because it, it's a visualization of thinking pattern and it's easier to learn and practice.So when you want to break away or when you need to break away from the artifact, it is scary because you no longer have that safety net. Yeah. [00:24:16] Joe Krebs: I also, I saw that's not, I believe it's not from a events book, but I saw connections and some really good explanations on the storyboard myself.And I do the idea is that you, when walking through the section of the storyboard, excuse me, you bring the ideas back into your memory. That is a strong thing. And maybe that is kata. [00:24:42] Kelly Mallery: Yes. Yes. So if you read the starter kata or any. Any artifact, which is just a physical manifestation of some process are designed and exist to help us remember and learn something and the connection between physically interacting with a space or an item versus just thinking about it cements that in our minds.So I have no, I don't recall who this quote is. Assigned to, but right. Ink makes you think the act of writing changes the way that you think about things and it cements that into your mind. So the artifacts are really important as learning aids, but then it is also critically important. To try to step away from them, because that will tell you and confirm if the thinking process has been cemented.Yeah. [00:25:36] Joe Krebs: One thing I want to throw into the mix is also that in agile environments, we work in teams. Where if you were looking at Toyota literature, we often see coach and learner as a one to one association doesn't have to be like this, but I'm saying in the HR community would most likely see a team based approach.In that context, I do think a storyboard has a great place, because. The team might not feel like it might actually as you said, ink makes people think. And as a result of that, you might spot some ambiguity and misunderstandings. And I think that's just natural in human language that we would write on a board.Yes, it could be starter. It could be starter Kata related with, so let's practice this on a board. I give you the opportunity to update your board. It's your board. And we're using it in a coaching cycle to reflect on it. And so we're not forgetting anything. So it's like a tool to support you and your mindset, but it's not the mindset [00:26:33] Kelly Mallery: itself.AnD I think you make an excellent point that when collaborating, it is really important to have that information and project work visible for everybody so that you don't run into ambiguity, ambiguities or misinterpretations or misunderstandings. Because that team needs to work together effectively.And if you're just going off of verbals, you lose a lot of context, you miss stuff. What I think Sylvain is talking about here. Within that context is the artifact is important, especially when you are starting, but that when you have that mindset and more experience, you shouldn't be limited by the artifact that it should not become a crutch.And as you progress and evolving your understanding and learning the tool needs to evolve with you the artifact needs to evolve with you. Because [00:27:32] Joe Krebs: thanks for pointing it out. I think that's important. Yes. It might actually have a, it might, be a limit in your thinking if you're relying on the board to have, I think that's also a good, that's a good point for individual use as well as team use of the of the storyboard.There are actually a Miro and Mural storyboards available if somebody is is interested off that storyboard. So for remote teams now, Kelly, I think we said we would pick three items, but while I have you here, I'm, I think we're going to pick a fourth. Go for it. aNd these are more like it's related to the coaching questions.There is something going on. It's very interesting about, there's a set of different kinds of coaching questions. And it started with one set of five questions. And since then it's called the five questions of the, in the coaching cycle, but it has more than five in the current versions, but it's still called the five coaching questions, but the original version was five.And they were from before 2009 and they're called it to Yodakata original five questions. I like those. And so I'm just going to spell them out. So the specific here, first one is what are you trying to achieve? Second one is where are you now? Third one, what's currently in your way? Fourth one, what's your next experiment and what do you expect?And the fifth one would be, when can we see what you have learned from that step? And that has evolved, mushroomed, or whatever the right definition for that is, into something that is much, much more elaborate and many more questions, detailed questions to certain things. What's the story behind the evolution of these questions?I personally like those original five. [00:29:19] Kelly Mallery: I agree. And Honestly, I discovered these original five questions when I read this and it made a really good deep connection for me where I've been practicing the improvement kata and beginning to try to explore. Integrating that more into standard operating practices that, that I have personally and in my work.And when you take, the five questions that were taught from the Toyota Cotta practice guide, where to your point, it's more than five. And if you practice with Cotta Girl Geeks. Cotta School, Cascadia, Cotta School, Northeast. There may be others. There's also the planning phase questions, which are another set of five that are similar, but still more questions.And the specific language in the questions that. I was taught and learned from practicing, don't always connect with people, with every process or problem that you are working on and trying to integrate scientific thinking into. So the, these original five questions. Are a little more vague and I think they're a little more relatable if you have no idea what the Improvement Kata is where you eliminate right target condition, actual condition now, and it's just more about what are you trying to achieve and where are we?[00:30:42] Joe Krebs: So the evolution of the questions is related to the evolution of the community itself, right? So in the beginning, those five questions created somewhat a starter coaching cycle. Thank you. But which was probably easier to accommodate for somebody who's new to color thinking. And then maybe at some point, you might say those five questions don't go deep enough anymore and has evolved into something.But the current set of questions might be too much might be an overload for somebody who's brand new to just starting with. Incorporated cut off thinking or scientific thinking. [00:31:17] Kelly Mallery: Yeah. And I think, especially if you have never practiced or learned about what is a target condition, what does that entail?It's not a colloquial term in the continuous improvement community, or I'm assuming also in the agile community. It is not something that everybody knows about or has heard all of the time. So trying to bring people in. I think this lines up with personal experience where using, do I use the Japanese lean term or do I use an English equivalent and where a single Japanese term may have much more depth.It's also a bit alienating to people who have no idea what you're talking about. And so I, I see the challenge in starting right away with the evolved questions. Interesting. However, I will because I am a firm believer in starter kata. It is important to start with the current best practices for practicing the improvement in coaching kata.And it's just important to make sure that you go through that learning of what do those terms mean? Yes. And what is the understanding there? Because there is a lot of Deep learning and connection that can occur when you have that common language in the context of target condition, actual condition, now obstacles, right?Those words are specific and intentional. [00:32:52] Joe Krebs: Yeah. And it's also actually a good point, right? Maybe the two of us, we know more about the evolution that somebody who was new to Cata. Obviously, if there is anything where we would say that question originally was a mistake and we have replaced it with something else.Through learning, we might say this is not a good idea to go to the original one. But in this particular case, those five questions are in evolution, right? They are just refined stated differently, broken down into different sections. This is pretty cool. And I do want to, I do want to say for everybody listening to this from the Agile community, I'm thinking, oh, is this the daily scrum or is this like this daily standup event or whatever you call that?It's much more than that. And it's different than that. So this is not a one to one equivalent replacement or another term. The beauty is of this podcast was we just jumped right into a book. Looked at segments. You might feel or have felt while we're going through this episode lost as a listener.It's what are they talking about? But the beauty is that there is a book that explains all that. And that is bringing scientific thinking to life by Sylvain Landry. And so I would say. take those sections we just talked about, but also there's so much more in that book. You can start with Qatar thinking and obviously more background from the author himself.But yeah, so we didn't jump in and say what is Qatar? There are other agile episodes for that. We have recorded. And there was book material out there. So that's why we took a little bit more of an advanced approach here. Kelly, I want to thank you so much for being interested in talking with me about Sylvain's book.And also I think we picked great four topics out of the book, different topics makes people think and, yeah. Good luck in your cutout journey and thanks [00:34:39] Kelly Mallery: for your time. Yeah. Thank you, Joe. I've really enjoyed this conversation. And I just like to add to all the listeners, right? Don't go alone.There are communities out there. If you go to, you can just Google kata schools and there are maps that say where your local school may be. And there's a wide community of people who are willing and so generous with their knowledge Information and practice. So if you are interested in getting involved, reach out.[00:35:08] Joe Krebs: That's right. And that is a cut off or anything that is related to Toyota. If you're very specifically interested in how this could be possibly applied in an agile community. We have an additional source. The ones you mentioned are definitely good learning sources, but they can also come to agileKata. pro. Thank you so much, thank you.

139: Melissa Perri

values practical principles latest news what do you think toyota kata steve kane

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 9, 2024 19:43

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.Transcript: Agile.FM Radio for the Agile Community. [00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Agile FM and I have here Melissa Perri with me. That is melissaperri. com. She's the author of the book, The Build Trap from 2018. And she just recently in October 23 released another book together with Denise. You have to help me with the last name. Phyllis.Phyllis, right? Product operations, how successful companies build better products at scale. And that was, I think I mentioned that October 23, so that's brand new. We want to talk today a little bit about our product and a topic I'm super interested in and that is Kata up, but before we do that, welcome to the podcast.[00:00:43] Melissa Perri: Thanks for having me[00:00:45] Joe Krebs: Melissa, you are known for your expertise in lean product strategy, user centric product development. You also a COO for Produx labs that is with an X at the end, so not products, it's produx. And I have all the links in the show page that is a product management consultancy, but I want to come back to that book you wrote in 2018, the build trap, because You say companies have a little bit of a dilemma when you wrote this book, because not only did they have to deliver faster, but faster, not only features, but value has anything changed since 2018?Since the book was released, did the dilemma get bigger, smaller, wider?[00:01:27] Melissa Perri: I think it got bigger, but we've seen a lot of progress. So I'm happy. I'm happy with the progress we made in the last five years. It's what happened was, I think. A lot of organizations now, we are not fighting the same battles I was fighting 10 years ago, where it's you must go talk to your users.Not everybody's still talking to your users, but they know they should be, right? Like I don't have to convince them that's a good thing to do. It's just that. Usually politics or systems or something else will get in the way of them actually going to do that. So what I'm observing though is a lot of companies are realizing they're in the build trap.There's a lot of people in the last five years who made strides to get out of the build trap. But there's still a lot of people who are stuck in it because they're just starting this journey. And the people who started this journey 10 years ago are making great progress. The people who started this journey like last year, they might be, a little more slow to be able to realize all the benefits. But the good thing is I don't think we're arguing about, do we actually need product managers What's the role of it? Should we be talking to our customers? How do we focus on value? Like people know that we should be doing those things. Now the question is, how do we do it?I [00:02:34] Joe Krebs: mean, there's still an emphasis based on my experience working with teams on just building features, and there could be like that pressure in an organization off, like releasing more features, but that's really not the goal here. What value do they carry?And so just want to make sure I get this right in terms of the. The build trap, right? [00:02:51] Melissa Perri: Yeah, exactly. The build trap is this place where organizations lose track of what value are we producing? And instead they're really focused on outputs instead of the outcomes. So what we're doing is we're measuring our success on things like how many features did we ship?Did we get everything done in time? Did it go out to our customers? And what happens is a lot of times we're not going back and revisiting. Those things that we released and saying, did they do something for business and for our customers? Did they actually solve a problem? Were they based on a problem?You see this happening with AI right now, right? There's always these places where we are like, Hey, there's a solution. Let's just implement a solution, but we're not pulling it back into what problem is this actually solving. And I had this conversation even with a CTO I was working with the other day where I was like, he has a whole AI strategy.I was like what is it, what are you going to do with that AI strategy, right? What problem is it solving? And we're doing a lot of work right now to uncover some customer problems. So I was like, let's pause this for a second, go and cover the problems and then go back and see if AI is a tool that can help us solve those problems in a unique, differentiated way.And that's how we have to look at. It's keeping the build trap, right? It's being able to really critically think about what we're building and why, and making sure that they go back to solving a need for our customers in a way that's going to scale our business. So it's not about ignoring business opportunities.So we should always be looking at those. But we have to remember that the way that we achieve business value is by. Solving customer problems in unique differentiated ways, [00:04:29] Joe Krebs: This is so this is really cool. I'm going to come back to that build trap here in a second, but I do want to go back to Summer of 2022 here for a second.When I was going to Nashville to the agile 22, which you deliver the keynote. I believe it was a Tuesday or Wednesday, but it was somewhere in the middle of the week. And I remember because I was hanging out in the open jam so that was the first I think after post COVID kind of agile conference, if I'm not mistaken.And it was quiet, it was very quiet on the open jam floor. A lot of people went to talks and everything, and that drastically changed when you deliver your keynote, because you mentioned the word Kata and I was out in a open jam and I constantly wanted to talk about agile Kata in terms of transformation, business agility, et cetera.But you related that to. Product and to your talk and after that keynote, obviously the floodgates were open, so to speak to open jam and people came in you were talking about Kata. How do people, and I think that's the question here to the build trap is how can people use the Kata in your opinion, the improvement Kata Michael Rother would popularize in his book, Toyota Kata to overcome that build trap.[00:05:36] Melissa Perri: I love Toyota kata it because. It makes you really take a step back and consider what you're doing. And it's not like this dogmatic framework that's really prescriptive for a specific moment in time. It can be applied to a lot of things. Like you said, like I actually learned kata. Teaching people Kanban Kata by Håkan Forss, right?And that's how I was introduced to it. And I had been a product manager for awhile and I was subcontracting for Kevin Bear actually, and Jay Bloom, and they introduced me to Kata and they said, can you help them think through their Kata using their Kanban using Kata? And I looked at it and I, once I started understanding more about Kata, I was like, this is how I approach product management.And I had been working with, a company called Lean Startup Machine where they taught a very specific approach to MVPs for companies where it was like, first you do a pitch, then you do a concierge experiment, then you may do a Wizard of Oz or something. And there was like a format to it. And it never the structure never sat right for me as a product manager, cause I'm not building a startup.I was inside of a company because I was like, in certain situations I wouldn't go in this order or I wouldn't do exactly that. And I'm like why doesn't the way that I operate fit into their. And it was having a hard time with it. And I was having a hard time explaining it, how I was thinking to other people.And when I introduced, when I got introduced to Kata, I was like, Oh my God, this is how I approach my thought process, but I've never had it Kata-fied before. And I do think it's a great, like problem solving framework that helps people solve problems and think about what they need to do and how they might get closer to a goal.So for me, what I found is that. When I was a product manager I taught it to other people who are around me. I taught it to my team so that we could build better products together and it caught on really well there. And then I started doing it as a consultant and as a teacher, I started teaching people kata to help them with product strategy and to help them with thinking through what they were going to build.And it kept expanding from there. And why I love teaching it is it's. It's really like a series of questions and it helps you get out of the build trap because it's asking you that critical question of why. And people get stuck in the build trap because they're not thinking about the why behind the features that they're building.And that's what Kata does. It slows you down for a minute to critically think about. Why are we investing in this? What is it going to do? And what do we expect at the end of the day? And I like even use it in informal settings all the time. Just like some of those key questions with leaders.So like I go in, I work with a lot of CEOs. I work with a lot of chief product officers and they'll show me their roadmap. They'll show me what they're building and I'll go, okay. What do you think, what is the goal that you're actually working towards, right? What's the outcome that you're trying to achieve?What do you know about the current state right now? What are the problems about our customers? And sometimes they don't have that answer. So I'm like, okay, let's go do some research, right? Let's now we know what action to take to learn that we can go explore what the problems are. We could go do use the research.We can get some data. Then we'll come back and then we'll set the next goal. And we get into strategy deployment there, right? Where we're setting a goal. We're trying to go out and do some experimentation around it, trying to learn a little bit more. And what it does is it really helps us learn about our businesses, our customers, our current situation.And critically thinking through all those things is what. Gets us to consider more options than just whatever solution idea came to your head first. And that's why I love Kata for product management for product strategy and deployment and creation and thinking through all these things, because it's not just about product management, but it's a broad framework that, anybody.Yeah. Anybody could understand, right? If I ask you, what's the outcome? What do you want to achieve from this? You're gonna, anybody can answer that depending on where you're sitting in this situation. And it's easy to understand, it's easy to grasp and it really helps people stop and start thinking more critically about stuff.So that's how I use it to help companies get out of the build trap. And even if I'm not going to introduce it in a super formalized way, like I've used it with, I have a Google sheet where I stepped through every part of the Kata when I'm experimenting with stuff and go all the way down. And I have some people I've taught love doing that, but even just the questions and the way that it makes us break down our logic and think about what's next, I think is really impactful for working with anybody in an organization just to get them to learn and deeply consider different things.[00:10:04] Joe Krebs: Right. I think something very interesting you said was like to slow down for a little bit, right? [00:10:08] Melissa Perri: Yeah. [00:10:09] Joe Krebs: and to think and really look at the the situation you are in product development and so many teams and an actual transformation aspect where I use the Kata a lot or business agility same thing, right?There's a tendency of all we know what the problem is, let's get started. Versus stepping back and say what, where are we right now? And I think that is a probably aspect in a product, but nobody wants to hear that. So it's let's slow down. Everybody's let's get started. [00:10:33] Melissa Perri: Yeah. [00:10:34] Joe Krebs: And it is getting started.[00:10:36] Melissa Perri: Exactly. It is getting started. That's like the best way to put it. One of the big things that I see people don't do is actually evaluate that current state. And that's a huge part of being able to set great product strategy and get out of the build trap. It's and when you go and look at your current state, and we do this with product ops, like in the book I was talking about, a lot of that is helping you get to that current state.It's about understanding like, what are your users doing now? What kind of customer segments do you serve? Who's using which products, what types of personas are using which products? And you can pull all this information out to get a current landscape of what is my company and my business and my product actually look like today.And if you don't understand that, it's really hard to figure out. Where you should go in the future, right? It's incredibly hard to set a vision. It's very hard to give direction to teams about where you're going. And the Kata introduces that super nicely in the way that it's laid out so that people don't skip over it.Cause a lot of times I'll see leaders go and just create a product vision out of thin air. And you're like based on what, right? But how does that relate back to what we're doing now? So it's been a great tool in helping people take that step back. Look at where we are before they actually want to leap forward and make assumptions about where we should go.[00:11:46] Joe Krebs: This is this is super cool. I do want to ask you something about something that's often connected with cut off thinking and also product development, especially if you're looking. It's a closer at scrum or the role of a product owner. There's a very rhythmic approach through sprints and iterations.Yes, you could do that with the Kata out. I researched product development companies out there and I think tanks. They don't necessarily work in these fixed iterations, right? So they're working more like ad hoc experimental approach. I just want to hear what your take is and how you would connect that maybe to the world of Scrum, the product owner role, and like just that rhythmic approach iterating over a product backlog.Versus more like the experimental approach and what do you see out there companies are doing? Probably also a little challenging because sometimes product development starts much earlier before there is a product backlog, right? Or something defined, iterate over. So there might be two steps to it.[00:12:44] Melissa Perri: Yeah, I have opinions about scrum. So here's where I think a lot of teams get stuck. There is a forcing function that's nice in scrum. Where. You say you need to break this down and make it small. And that's where the two weeks come from, right? So it's that you don't spend six months building a bunch of stuff and never showing it to the world and not getting the feedback.And I firmly agree with the concept of get things in front of customers early, get some feedback. Now that doesn't need to be get half baked ideas in front of 20, 000 customers early. It just means like sometimes we do these things behind the scenes. Like I'll work with B2B enterprises in healthcare and finance and all these completely regulated businesses.And what we'll do is we'll try to figure out how to test things with people early on. So we might. Build a small prototype, or we could build a even small subset of features into a product and let people use it in beta testing. So maybe it reaches 10 people, 20 people, we get feedback, and we iterate on that before we go and launch it to everybody else.To me, That's what scrum is trying to promote is that you get things out and have those feedback loops, but it took on a life of its own. I feel and people got really dogmatic about it, especially with the two week sprints. And I have worked in industries where. It does not take two weeks to actually get something built to be able to show to customers.So then what are you doing? You're just like giving people arbitrary deadlines and they're sprinting sprinting, but they don't have much to show for it. And again, pure scrum, people would say Oh, they're doing it wrong then. And I agree, but some work just takes longer. And to me, scrum is useful when there's.unknowns that you have to go test. But if you have to build something and you know it's going to take six weeks and you have concrete data that's the right thing to build go build it. Like, why are we trying to sprint for two weeks into six week cycles? That doesn't make any sense to me.So a lot of companies out there I think are using Scrum wrong, right? They're not thinking about what do we know, what do we not know about the things that we're building? These known, knowns and the unknowns of the world here. And you want to. In product development, get to a place where you're putting things out quickly and testing it with customers and getting some feedback.And like I said, you could do that in a small way when you're not sure if the solution you're building is the right thing for the customers and that's the thing that we're testing there. What I see with Kata is it allows for the flexibility of that when you started thinking through it. And when I've used it in practice, we, and I've used it with a lot of teams, I'll say to them, what's the first small step we can take to go learn if somebody actually likes this.And they might say, we we tried the prototypes. We think they're usably good. Now we have to build it in some small. Like that, that sometimes becomes the assumption we have to test in which case, maybe we get some beta testers. Like we said, we get 20 beta testers and we build it as code.We release it under a feature flag and we go test it in Kata. You would ask, how long is it going to take to build? That first thing, like when can we go see, right? When can we go see our results? It might be four weeks. It might be five weeks. It might be one week. It might be two weeks, right? There's no, you want to keep thinking about slimming it down as much as you can, but it's not prescriptive about this two week cycle.And that's why I like approaching things more like that rather than trying to time box it things into two weeks. I think time boxing is nice when you've got a Team that's not used to operating that way and it's a forcing function to get them to think smaller, right? So sometimes I'll ask them. Okay, cool.That's gonna take eight weeks. Could you do what could you do in two? What could you do in three? But then we'd have a conversation of yeah But if we did that in two we'd only be able to do this much and we wouldn't be able to get This part of it out and that part is really valuable and you're like, okay what about three right and you have that back and forth negotiation on it?But Scrum doesn't allow for that, right? Like it's nope, everything has to be in two week sprints. In certain forms of how people sprint. That's the part that doesn't sit well with me for Scrum, and where I think people are getting really caught up in the motions, but not thinking about why they're actually doing it.[00:16:57] Joe Krebs: Yeah. What's interesting, right? Because you also just said that about breaking things down into smaller pieces to make them fit, right? What I have seen in the past was like the teams overreact and these items become so, so small. [00:17:10] Melissa Perri: Oh yeah. And you don't want it to be too small, right? And that's a big thing too, where I've worked with a ton of teams who've missed Misunderstood what a minimum viable product is.And I don't even like to use that terminology now because it's just so butchered, but they'll be like, Oh, an MVP is just putting out these core functionality. And you go what are you going to learn when you release that? And that you don't already know now, because sometimes it's like, Oh, all we're going to learn is that it's not enough for people.They want more. And you're like, so why bother? Like why bother? If you know that's going to be the answer. Spend two more weeks and build something that's actually valuable there. And that's the conversations I think we need to be having when we think about breaking down product development and what's small and what's considered.And I do believe there's ways to slice things down into smaller chunks where you can get it out there, but it has to be valuable, right? It can't just be small. It has to be valuable. [00:18:01] Joe Krebs: Exactly. And I feel like that's a key point you're making here is where the Kata, it's almost like when you're talking about what's the next target condition, right?What is, and then you're talking about some valuable things, like there's a discrepancy between where we are right now and where we would like to be. And there's a value in between, right? And if you're aiming for that, and it could be two weeks, it could be one week, it could be two days or could be four weeks.So it's not so much about the time, but how fast can we go to that target condition? This is this is really awesome. So I love hearing your thoughts on these topics. And I hope that the listeners out there listening to this from a product management perspective or product owner role. Got some new ideas, the beauty of the Kata and the agile Kata I'm promoting a lot is that people can start anytime.[00:18:44] Melissa Perri: Yeah. I like that.[00:18:45] Joe Krebs: If you're listening to this and it's like, how do I. Do this, right? Everything's about experimentation. So why not experimenting with the the kind of approach and and try that and see how it works for you. And possibly make some modifications to it. And maybe the product management process itself could also be Kata-ized.So I think that would be awesome. Yeah, that's great. [00:19:04] Melissa Perri: I'd love to see more product managers doing it. I had actually talking to somebody in a couple of days who used it in the government with Congress people. Yeah. Doing product stuff. And I was like, that's cool. So lots of different contexts to do it.I hope it's a good tool that can help people be better product managers. [00:19:20] Joe Krebs: Yeah. And thanks for coming to the Kata series of Agile FM where I'm highlighting the multiple use cases of Kata thinking and how it could fit into the professional world out there. So thanks for taking the role on product management.Thank you, Melissa. [00:19:35] Melissa Perri: Thanks for having me

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GA 505 | Values vs. Principles with Steve Kane

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 7, 2023 35:29

This week's guest is our own Steve Kane. Ron and Steve discussed Toyota Kata, coaching (specifically Steve's coaching style), running certification programs, and more. An MP3 audio version of this episode is available for download here. In this episode you'll learn: Steve's favorite quote (3:05) His early thoughts on Toyota Kata and scientific thinking (4:28) Steve's background (9:41) How he overcomes any objections to certification programs (10:35) How things are going (12:44) Steve's coaching style (16:25) The difference between values and principles (18:13) Working that into his day to day operation (21:23) Practical tips for coaching sessions (23:23) Podcast Resources Right Click to Download this Podcast as an MP3 Steve Kane Gemba Academy Podcast Episodes Steve on LinkedIn Get All the Latest News from Gemba Academy Our newsletter is a great way to receive updates on new courses, blog posts, and more. Sign up here. What Do You Think? Are you currently pursuing any continuous improvement certifications?

Giving Wings to Her Team with Tilo Schwarz

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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 30, 2023 28:42

Tilo Schwarz is a leadership coach, former plant manager and co-founder of the Campus for Leaders at the University of Applied Science Ansbach. He helps managers to successfully lead change and empower their teams for improvement, adaptiveness, and superior results. During his time as a plant manager at a renowned German power-tool manufacturer, he started practicing Toyota Kata with his management team as part of Mike Rother's groundbreaking research in 2006. By doing so, Tilo and his team established continuous improvement as a daily routine throughout all processes and areas of the plant. That led to winning the A. T. Kearny operational excellence competition "Factory of the Year" and a WHU/INSEAD Industrial Excellence Award. Tilo is the author of several books on coaching and Toyota Kata.Jeffrey K. Liker is Professor Emeritus, Industrial and Operations Engineering at The University of Michigan and President of Liker Lean Advisors, LLC. He is the author of the best-selling book, The Toyota Way, Second Edition, and has coauthored nine other books about Toyota including The Toyota Way to Service Excellence and The Toyota Way to Lean Leadership. His graphic novel with Eduardo Lander and Tom Root tells the story of lean transformation at a mail-order company: Lean in a High-Variability Business. A more compact graphic novel, Engaging the Team at Zingerman's Mail Order, illustrates how Kata unleashed the creativity of their team. His articles and books have won thirteen Shingo Prizes for Research Excellence. He was inducted into the Association of Manufacturing Excellence Hall of Fame and the Shingo Academy.Link to claim CME credit: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3DXCFW3CME credit is available for up to 3 years after the stated release dateContact CEOD@bmhcc.org if you have any questions about claiming credit.

GA 498 | The Power of Improving Less with Chad Bareither

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 19, 2023 28:29

This week's guest is Chad Bareither. Ron and Chad discussed Chad's book, "Improve LESS," Toyota Kata, why continuous improvement is not just "extra work," and more. An MP3 audio version of this episode is available for download here. In this episode you'll learn: The quote Chad likes (2:08) His background (2:59) About entropy and why progress comes undone (4:59) The root cause (7:11) An example of a client who found success by "improving less" (9:29) The Effort vs. Impact matrix (12:08) Why Chad loves Toyota Kata (16:10) Getting away from the idea that continuous improvement is not "extra work" (17:30) An example from one of Ron's prior jobs (19:29) Understanding your "Why?" (24:05) About Chad's book, Improve Less (25:49) Podcast Resources Right Click to Download this Podcast as an MP3 Improve LESS Book Chad on LinkedIn Bareither Group Consulting on YouTube Get All the Latest News from Gemba Academy Our newsletter is a great way to receive updates on new courses, blog posts, and more. Sign up here. What Do You Think? What's your initial reaction to the idea of "improving less"?

Title: Missing Conversations Part II: Alignment

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 4, 2023 10:47

An underperforming tech team is missing something, but what? This week on Troubleshooting Agile, Squirrel and Jeffrey share part one of their 3-stage diagnostics for discovering missing conversations - Simon Sinek, Start With Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/start-with-why/ - Toyota Kata: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Kata -------------------------------------------------- Order your copy of our book, Agile Conversations at agileconversations.com Plus, get access to a free mini training video about the technique of Coherence Building when you join our mailing list. We'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show. Email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick first met while working together at TIM group in 2013. A decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing organisations through better conversations. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, helping companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: https://douglassquirrel.com/index.html Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, author and speaker. You can connect with him here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

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Training Within Industry with Jim Huntzinger

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Play Episode Listen Later Oct 3, 2023 35:59

In this episode Jim Huntzinger and I discuss TWI, Toyota Kata, and their relation. What You'll Learn: 1. What is TWI? 2. Why is Toyota Kata important? 3. What is the relationship between TWI and Toyota Kata? 4. Why are TWI and Kata foundational skills? 5. Are TWI and Kata more than just front-line skills? 6. What role does coaching play in these fundamental skills? About the Guest: Jim Huntzinger began his career as a manufacturing engineer with Aisin Seiki, a Toyota Group company transplanted to North America to support Toyota. Next he joined Briggs & Stratton where he held positions in engineering, operations, and management working to implement and evolve lean into operational and business practices, and several plant design & development and startups. He also spent a number of years consulting with organizations ranging from small privately-held to huge-global corporations in a variety of industries. In 2005 Huntzinger founded Lean Frontiers, producing Summits and immersive workshops to build and expand the lean community. He has researched at length the evolution of manufacturing in the United States with an emphasis on lean's influence and development. Links: ⁠Click here to connect with Jim Huntzinger ⁠Click here for more information on Lean Frontiers ⁠Click here for The Lean Solutions Summit --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/leansolutions/support

Ep. 244: Lean Learning, feat. Shanti Abelha

BJJ Mental Models

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 7, 2023 54:42

This week we're joined by Shanti Abelha! Shanti is a multi-time black belt world champion, management consultant, and head coach at Hive BJJ in Copenhagen. In this episode, Shanti draws upon her business management experience to introduce lean methodologies and explain how they can transfer to skill development in BJJ.Follow Shanti on Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/shantibjj/Train with Shanti at Hive BJJ:https://hivebjj.com/Resources discussed in this episode:Toyota Kata, feat. Mike Rother — YouTubehttps://youtu.be/ARbMvYQaRGgMental models discussed in this episode:Shuharihttps://bjjmentalmodels.com/shuhari/Investing in Losshttps://bjjmentalmodels.com/investing-in-loss/Habits Over Resultshttps://bjjmentalmodels.com/habits-over-results/Scientific Methodhttps://bjjmentalmodels.com/scientific-method/Kaizenhttps://bjjmentalmodels.com/kaizen/Don't forget to check out BJJ Mental Models Premium!If you love the podcast, you'll definitely love our premium membership offerings. The podcast is truly just the tip of the iceberg – the next steps on your journey are joining our community, downloading our strategy courseware, and working with us to optimize your game. We do all this through memberships that come in at a fraction of the cost of a single private.Sign up here for a free trial:https://bjjmentalmodels.com/Need more BJJ Mental Models?Get tips, tricks, and breakthrough insights from our newsletter:https://bjjmentalmodels.com/newsletter/Get nitty-gritty details on our mental models from the full database:https://bjjmentalmodels.com/database/Follow us on social:https://facebook.com/bjjmentalmodels/https://instagram.com/bjjmentalmodels/Music by Enterprize:https://enterprize.bandcamp.com/

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Patterns of Thinking That Shape Success with Oscar Roche || Ep 254

Business Growth On Purpose

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 6, 2023 26:13

Come for the accent, stay for the insight! Today's guest comes to us from Australia: Oscar Roche of TWI Institute. In today's episode, we will discuss a different way of thinking about getting projects done in organizations. The dialogue will stretch your thinking and challenge your assumptions about the best ways to really get things done. Oscar believes passionately that frontline leaders have been ignored for many years and that it is high time to now support their development for businesses to survive and develop. The practical nature of the TWI and Toyota Kata programs makes them the ideal vehicle to build leader capability development. So much so, that Oscar practices the skills in his everyday working life. After listening to today's episode, check out Oscar's website for more information about their leadership training programs.

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Episode 113: The Business Model of Lean with Jim Huntzinger

Augmented - the industry 4.0 podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 3, 2023 34:26

Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations, where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. Jim Huntzinger, President of Lean Frontiers, joins us in this episode for a deep dive into the lean business model and all things lean accounting. We explore value stream versus product costing, the importance of lean coaching, the principles of Toyota Kata, and how these strategies can drive processes improvement and product development simultaneously. Throughout the conversation, we examine the value of transforming traditional business practices and the potential impact on organizational decision-making and growth. If you like this show, subscribe at AugmentedPodcast.co (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/). If you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 108: Lean Operations (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/108) with John Carrier, or Episode 84: The Evolution of Lean (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/84) with Torbjørn Netland. Augmented is a podcast for industry leaders, process engineers, and shop floor operators, hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim (https://trondundheim.com/) and presented by Tulip (https://tulip.co/). Follow the podcast on Twitter (https://twitter.com/AugmentedPod) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/75424477/). Trond's Takeaway: The lean business model is attractive to many manufacturing firms and still elusive to some of them, despite many examples of the principles in action popping up constantly. The business community should still spend more time on the interface between tech, logistics, and IT, and how all of that might interface with lean accounting. Strikingly, what we might think of as lean companies don't necessarily use lean practices across their business. Special Guest: Jim Huntzinger.

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Removable Discomfort

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 26, 2023 11:31

Are you pushing alone or pushing together? On this week's episode, we take a closer look at how to be helpfully demanding and how to identify removable discomfort, with a story about helping a product manager who's "pushing" for progress toward a quarterly goal. Listen to find out how to approach your conversations with more curiosity, so you can uncover better solutions. Links: - Brooks on essential complexity: http://worrydream.com/refs/Brooks-NoSilverBullet.pdf - Toyota Kata: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Kata - Previous episode on being helpfully demanding: https://agileconversations.com/blog/how-to-be-helpfully-demanding/ -------------------------------------------------- Our book, Agile Conversations, is out now. Go to agileconversations.com to order your copy. Plus, get access to a free mini training video about the technique of Coherence Building when you join our mailing list. We'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show. Email us at info@agileconversations.com About Your Hosts Squirrel and Jeffrey first met while working together at TIM group in 2013 . A decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing organisations through better conversations. Squirrel is an advisor, author, speaker, coach, and consultant, helping companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: https://douglassquirrel.com/index.html Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, author and speaker. You can connect with him here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

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Maximizing Impact of Agile Coaching at Moo, Feedback and Measurement Strategies | Gemma Murray

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 23, 2023 17:12

Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. In this episode, Gemma discusses her work as an agile coach at Moo and how they measure the impact they have on the organization. She emphasizes that feedback is important but measurement helps us reflect and grow. When it comes to defining success, she shares that to measure the impact of their coaching, the coaches at Moo use engagement surveys that touch on Scrum values and use one or two of the survey questions to build their agile coach OKR's. These metrics provide a lagging indicator but at the same time, they help the coaches define shorter term actions, and metrics, and eventually the OKR's help measure their impact on a longer time scale. In addition to using engagement surveys, they also use collaboration questions for which they ask an evaluation on a 1-5 scale to measure the level of collaboration among teams towards a shared goal. The collaboration questions align with their OKR's as Agile Coaches and help them to see the impact they are having on the organization. Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Simplifying Agile Retrospectives to amplify their impact on Scrum teams In this segment, Gemma shares her favorite approach to conducting agile retrospectives. She emphasizes the importance of keeping the format simple, especially for new teams or teams that are adapting to retrospectives. Gemma shares one example, where she uses a smiley face column, a sad face column, and a question mark column to initiate a wide-ranging conversation and to capture various types of feedback and perspectives. To complement the conversation, she captures the action items that the team wants to put into practice, using frameworks such as CAT (Concrete, Attainable, Timely) and SMART. Gemma views retrospectives as a conversational format and emphasizes the importance of asking "what's the next immediate step?" and making small changes that have a big impact. Additionally, she mentions the 15% solutions from liberating structures and Toyota Kata as helpful tools in facilitating agile retrospectives. Retrospectives, planning sessions, vision workshops, we are continuously helping teams learn about how to collaborate in practice! In this Actionable Agile Tools book, Jeff Campbell shares some of the tools he's learned over a decade of coaching Agile Teams. The pragmatic coaching book you need, right now! Buy Actionable Agile Tools on Amazon, or directly from the author, and supercharge your facilitation toolbox! About Gemma Murray Gemma works as an Agile Coach for MOO, a branding company whose vision is to provide 'Great design for everyone'. Having worked in various change roles using both waterfall and agile approaches throughout her career, Gemma believes in the diversity of teams to unlock innovation, creativity and delivering value. You can link with Gemma Murray on LinkedIn.

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Kata is for Everyone with Sam Morgan

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 21, 2023 37:42

In this episode, Sam Morgan and I discuss his personal journey into launching his coaching business to include his personal use of kata to make it happen. We discuss the use of kata for both business and personal applications. What You'll Learn: How did you get to the point of starting your own coaching business? You don't have any lean certifications (LSSMB) or coaching certifications (ICF) What makes you feel like you are qualified to coach lean and ops leaders? You talk to lots of lean and ops leaders, what's the biggest challenge you are hearing that they face on a daily basis? What do you feel like we need to do to solve this challenge? What does continuous improvement mean to you? About the Guest: Sam Morgan is a self-proclaimed “confident learner.” After spending the past five years of work in the continuous improvement space he landed at KataCon, a conference for continuous improvement professionals who practice the Toyota Kata. There he had a powerful moment realizing where his true passion lies: transforming people through coaching. Links: Click here for Sam's Linkedin Page Click here for Sam's Webpage Click here for The Lean Solutions Summit --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/leansolutions/support

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4 Step Improvement Kata: Step 4 – Experimenting Toward the Next Target Condition with Tilo Schwarz

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 2, 2023 33:50

Tilo supports organizations and managers in successfully leading change and empowering their teams for improvement, adaptiveness, and superior results. He was a plant manager at a renowned German power-tool manufacturer, where he and his management team started practicing Toyota Kata as part of Mike Rother's groundbreaking research in 2006. By doing so, Tilo and his team established continuous improvement as a daily working routine throughout all processes and areas of the plant. That led to winning the A. T. Kearny manufacturing competition "Factory of the Year" and a WHU/INSEAD Industrial Excellence Award. Tilo is co-founder of the Campus for Leaders at the University of Applied Science Ansbach and the author of several books on coaching and Toyota KataLink to claim CME credit: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3DXCFW3CME credit is available for up to 3 years after the stated release dateContact CEOD@bmhcc.org if you have any questions about claiming credit.

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4 Step Improvement Kata: Step 3 – Next Target Condition & Obstacles with Tracy Defoe

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 26, 2023 32:12

Tracy A. DefoeKata Coach, Consultant, Community Builder, Researcher, Program Developer, Educatorspecializing in learning at work.Tracy Defoe is co-founder of Kata School Cascadia and Kata Girl Geeks. Both are growing coaches and building the kata community world-wide. Tracy helps Tilo Schwarz with the Kata Dojo Masterclass, too.Her consulting company is called TLFI The Learning Factor. She aims to be smarter about learning.Tracy Defoe is a Canadian adult education consultant and researcher specializing in workplace learning. She is a proud Kata Geek and a humble lean practitioner. When her first client, Teleflex Canada, (now Dometic Marine), invited her to help them teach continuous improvement, she set herself the challenge of taking all the waste out of the ‘push' lean training they were using. She built the modules of what would become the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters program TeamTime™ around questions. When Mike Rother's Toyota Kata book came out in 2009, a consultant who saw that like Mike, Tracy was teaching people to ask questions, study learners, and never give answers, put her in touch with early kata practitioners in the Pacific Northwest. Since a Kata Meet Up in early 2010, Tracy has been learning, coaching and sharing her experiences with the Improvement and Coaching Katas. Tracy's clients have led her to help them with continuous improvement and culture change, front-line worker and supervisor skills, strategic planning and executive development. Tracy is keen on customization and on supporting informal peer-led learning. Tracy Defoe has a BA in French and a MA in Education (Curriculum and Instruction) from UBCwhere she started her career in English as a Second Language education. A consultant to business, labour and government, Tracy Defoe is President of TLFI The Learning Factor Inc. and a very part-time instructor at Capilano University in British Columbia, Canada. www.thelearningfactor.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracydefoe/Link to claim CME credit: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3DXCFW3CME credit is available for up to 3 years after the stated release dateContact CEOD@bmhcc.org if you have any questions about claiming credit.

From Big Bang thinking to incremental delivery, an Agile success story | Peter Janssens

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 24, 2023 13:16

Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. When Peter joined this project, the teams had been working on it for years and had little to show for it. Thanks to the CTO at the company, the new team which Peter coached, was able to focus on small, valuable increments to deliver the back-office system the company needed. Listen to this segment, to hear how we can help teams go from BIG BANG thinking to incremental delivery, a crucial need for Agile teams. In this segment, we refer to the Toyota Kata and the PDCA cycle. Featured Book of the Week: Accelerate by Forsgren et al. In Accelerate: The Science of Lean Software and DevOps: Building and Scaling High Performing Technology Organizations by Forsgren et al., Peter found evidence-based support for many of the approaches, and practices used by Agile teams and Agile organizations. In this segment, we talk about the DORA metrics, and how to focus software development on business results. Do you wish you had decades of experience? Learn from the Best Scrum Masters In The World, Today! The Tips from the Trenches - Scrum Master edition audiobook includes hours of audio interviews with SM's that have decades of experience: from Mike Cohn to Linda Rising, Christopher Avery, and many more. Super-experienced Scrum Masters share their hard-earned lessons with you. Learn those today, make your teams awesome! About Peter Janssens Peter built a long career in agile coaching and training, and worked in leadership positions leading a PO team, and recently became CTO in a SAAS product company. Peter loves all conversations on effectiveness of team decisions, but he quickly realized that being responsible is different from being a coach. As a leader there is the challenge of sticking to the same foundations when dealing with delivery pressure. You can link with Peter Janssens on LinkedIn.

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