Podcasts about The Toyota Way

Josh Howell, LEI President, Mark Reich, LEI Chief Engineer Strategy, and Art Smalley discuss the four basic types of problem-solving. Art is a well-known expert in leadership, management, and the Toyota Way. He worked at Toyota Motor Corp. in Japan; helped to transform Donnelly Corp. in Michigan; was a consultant with McKinsey & Co.; and has authored several award-winning books, including Four Types of Problems.   The trio set out to discuss how the framework of the four types of problems maps onto the lean management system explained in Mark's recent book about hoshin kanri, Managing on Purpose, as well as daily management in Toyota, leadership, culture, and other related topics. The systematic intersection of these topics is a complex subject beyond just the simpler notion of “tools.” Art and Mark share respective viewpoints from their time at Toyota in Japan and what made the system so unique while trying to connect the dots of four types of problems, hoshin kanri, and other areas.  Josh kicks off the podcast by asking Art and Mark to examine in detail troubleshooting — the most frequent and possibly most misunderstood type of problem-solving. A good troubleshooting environment involves quickly attacking known problems with known solutions to get operations back to normal (i.e., how to mitigate issues that prevent achievement of near-term goals). They also review troubleshooting's relationship with the other types of problem-solving and the “flavors” of the types — gap from standard (how to prevent a problem from recurring by eliminating its underlying root causes), target condition (kaizen to elevate the standard), and open-ended (innovations and breakthrough thinking) — as well as the complex interaction of the four types with daily management and hoshin kanri.  Learn more about a lean management system and the connection between problem-solving, daily management, and hoshin kanri: lean.org/LMP

Dangerous Dilettantes vs. Toyota Way EngineeringCore ThesisThe influx of AI-powered automation tools creates dangerous dilettantes - practitioners who know just enough to be harmful. The Toyota Production System (TPS) principles provide a battle-tested framework for integrating automation while maintaining engineering discipline.Historical ContextToyota Way formalized ~2001DevOps principles derive from TPSCoincided with post-dotcom crash startupsDecades of manufacturing automation parallels modern AI-based automationDangerous Dilettante IndicatorsPromises magical automation without understanding systemsFocuses on short-term productivity gains over long-term stabilityCreates interfaces that hide defects rather than surfacing themLacks understanding of production engineering fundamentalsPrioritizes feature velocity over deterministic behaviorToyota Way Implementation for AI-Enhanced Development1. Long-Term Philosophy Over Short-Term Gains// Anti-pattern: Brittle automation scriptlet quick_fix = agent.generate_solution(problem, { optimize_for: "immediate_completion", validation: false});// TPS approach: Sustainable system designlet sustainable_solution = engineering_system .with_agent_augmentation(agent) .design_solution(problem, { time_horizon_years: 2, observability: true, test_coverage_threshold: 0.85, validate_against_principles: true });Build systems that remain maintainable across yearsEstablish deterministic validation criteria before implementationOptimize for total cost of ownership, not just initial development2. Create Continuous Process Flow to Surface ProblemsImplement CI pipelines that surface defects immediately:Static analysis validationType checking (prefer strong type systems)Property-based testingIntegration testsPerformance regression detectionBuild flow:make lint → make typecheck → make test → make integration → make benchmarkFail fast at each stageForce errors to surface early rather than be hidden by automationAgent-assisted development must enhance visibility, not obscure it3. Pull Systems to Prevent OverproductionMinimize code surface area - only implement what's neededPrefer refactoring to adding new abstractionsUse agents to eliminate boilerplate, not to generate speculative features// Prefer minimal implementationsfunction processData(data: T[]): Result { // Use an agent to generate only the exact transformation needed // Not to create a general-purpose framework}4. Level Workload (Heijunka)Establish consistent development velocityAvoid burst patterns that hide technical debtUse agents consistently for small tasks rather than large sporadic generations5. Build Quality In (Jidoka)Automate failure detection, not just productionAny failed test/lint/check = full system haltEvery team member empowered to "pull the andon cord" (stop integration)AI-assisted code must pass same quality gates as human codeQuality gates should be more rigorous with automation, not less6. Standardized Tasks and ProcessesUniform build system interfaces across projectsConsistent command patterns:make formatmake lintmake testmake deployStandardized ways to integrate AI assistanceDocumented patterns for human verification of generated code7. Visual Controls to Expose ProblemsDashboards for code coverageComplexity metricsDependency trackingPerformance telemetryUse agents to improve these visualizations, not bypass them8. Reliable, Thoroughly-Tested TechnologyPrefer languages with strong safety guarantees (Rust, OCaml, TypeScript over JS)Use static analysis tools (clippy, eslint)Property-based testing over example-based#[test]fn property_based_validation() { proptest!(|(input: Vec)| { let result = process(&input); // Must hold for all inputs assert!(result.is_valid_state()); });}9. Grow Leaders Who Understand the WorkEngineers must understand what agents produceNo black-box implementationsLeaders establish a culture of comprehension, not just completion10. Develop Exceptional TeamsUse AI to amplify team capabilities, not replace expertiseAgents as team members with defined responsibilitiesCross-training to understand all parts of the system11. Respect Extended Network (Suppliers)Consistent interfaces between systemsWell-documented APIsVersion guaranteesExplicit dependencies12. Go and See (Genchi Genbutsu)Debug the actual system, not the abstractionTrace problematic code pathsVerify agent-generated code in contextSet up comprehensive observability// Instrument code to make the invisible visiblefunc ProcessRequest(ctx context.Context, req *Request) (*Response, error) { start := time.Now() defer metrics.RecordLatency("request_processing", time.Since(start)) // Log entry point logger.WithField("request_id", req.ID).Info("Starting request processing") // Processing with tracing points // ... // Verify exit conditions if err != nil { metrics.IncrementCounter("processing_errors", 1) logger.WithError(err).Error("Request processing failed") } return resp, err}13. Make Decisions Slowly by ConsensusMulti-stage validation for significant architectural changesAutomated analysis paired with human reviewDesign documents that trace requirements to implementation14. Kaizen (Continuous Improvement)Automate common patterns that emergeRegular retrospectives on agent usageContinuous refinement of prompts and integration patternsTechnical Implementation PatternsAI Agent Integrationinterface AgentIntegration { // Bounded scope generateComponent(spec: ComponentSpec): Promise; // Surface problems validateGeneration(code: string): Promise; // Continuous improvement registerFeedback(generation: string, feedback: Feedback): void;}Safety Control SystemsRate limitingProgressive exposureSafety boundariesFallback mechanismsManual oversight thresholdsExample: CI Pipeline with Agent Integration# ci-pipeline.ymlstages: - lint - test - integrate - deploylint: script: - make format-check - make lint # Agent-assisted code must pass same checks - make ai-validation test: script: - make unit-test - make property-test - make coverage-report # Coverage thresholds enforced - make coverage-validation# ...ConclusionAgents provide useful automation when bounded by rigorous engineering practices. The Toyota Way principles offer proven methodology for integrating automation without sacrificing quality. The difference between a dangerous dilettante and an engineer isn't knowledge of the latest tools, but understanding of fundamental principles that ensure reliable, maintainable systems.

Extensive Notes: The Truth About AI and Your Coding JobTypes of AINarrow AINot truly intelligentPattern matching and full text searchExamples: voice assistants, coding autocompleteUseful but contains bugsMultiple narrow AI solutions compound bugsGet in, use it, get out quicklyAGI (Artificial General Intelligence)No evidence we're close to achieving thisMay not even be possibleWould require human-level intelligenceNeeds consciousness to existConsciousness: ability to recognize what's happening in environmentNo concept of this in narrow AI approachesPure fantasy and magical thinkingASI (Artificial Super Intelligence)Even more fantasy than AGINo evidence at all it's possibleMore science fiction than realityThe DevOps Flowchart TestCan you explain what DevOps is?If no → You're incompetent on this topicIf yes → Continue to next questionDoes your company use DevOps?If no → You're inexperienced and a magical thinkerIf yes → Continue to next questionWhy would you think narrow AI has any form of intelligence?Anyone claiming AI will automate coding jobs while understanding DevOps is likely:A magical thinkerUnaware of scientific processA grifterWhy DevOps MattersProven methodology similar to Toyota WayBased on continuous improvement (Kaizen)Look-and-see approach to reducing defectsConstantly improving build systems, testing, lintingNo AI component other than basic statistical analysisFeedback loop that makes systems betterThe Reality of Job AutomationPeople who do nothing might be eliminatedNot AI automating a job if they did nothingWorkers who create negative valuePeople who create bugs at 2AMTheir elimination isn't AI automationMeasuring Software QualityHigh churn files correlate with defectsConstant changes to same file indicate not knowing what you're doingDevOps patterns help identify issues through:Tracking file changesMeasuring complexityCode coverage metricsDeployment frequencyConclusionVery early stages of combining narrow AI with DevOpsNarrow AI tools are useful but limitedNeed to look beyond magical thinkingOpinions don't matter if you:Don't understand DevOpsDon't use DevOpsClaim to understand DevOps but believe narrow AI will replace developersRaw AssessmentIf you don't understand DevOps → Your opinion doesn't matterIf you understand DevOps but don't use it → Your opinion doesn't matterIf you understand and use DevOps but think AI will automate coding jobs → You're likely a magical thinker or grifter

Episode Notes: Search, Not Superintelligence: RAG's Role in Grounding Generative AISummaryI demystify RAG technology and challenge the AI hype cycle. I argue current AI is merely advanced search, not true intelligence, and explain how RAG grounds models in verified data to reduce hallucinations while highlighting its practical implementation challenges.Key PointsGenerative AI is better described as "generative search" - pattern matching and prediction, not true intelligenceRAG (Retrieval-Augmented Generation) grounds AI by constraining it to search within specific vector databasesVector databases function like collaborative filtering algorithms, finding similarity in multidimensional spaceRAG reduces hallucinations but requires extensive data curation - a significant challenge for implementationAWS Bedrock provides unified API access to multiple AI models and knowledge base solutionsQuality control principles from Toyota Way and DevOps apply to AI implementation"Agents" are essentially scripts with constraints, not truly intelligent entitiesQuote"We don't have any form of intelligence, we just have a brute force tool that's not smart at all, but that is also very useful."ResourcesAWS Bedrock: https://aws.amazon.com/bedrock/Vector Database Overview: https://ds500.paiml.com/subscribe.htmlNext StepsNext week: Coding implementation of RAG technologyExplore AWS knowledge base setup optionsConsider data curation requirements for your organization#GenerativeAI #RAG #VectorDatabases #AIReality #CloudComputing #AWS #Bedrock #DataScience

Episode Notes: The Wizard of AI: Unmasking the Smoke and MirrorsSummaryI expose the reality behind today's "AI" hype. What we call AI is actually generative search and pattern matching - useful but not intelligent. Like the Wizard of Oz, tech companies use smoke and mirrors to market what are essentially statistical models as sentient beings.Key PointsCurrent AI technologies are statistical pattern matching systems, not true intelligenceThe term "artificial intelligence" is misleading - these are advanced search tools without consciousnessWe should reframe generative AI as "generative search" or "generative pattern matching"AI systems hallucinate, recommend non-existent libraries, and create security vulnerabilitiesSimilar technology hype cycles (dot-com, blockchain, big data) all followed the same patternSuccessful implementation requires treating these as IT tools, not magical solutionsCompanies using misleading AI terminology (like "cognitive" and "intelligence") create unrealistic expectationsQuote"At the heart of intelligence is consciousness... These statistical pattern matching systems are not aware of the situation they're in."ResourcesFramework: Apply DevOps and Toyota Way principles when implementing AI toolsHistorical Example: Amazon "walkout technology" that actually relied on thousands of workers in IndiaNext StepsRemove "AI" terminology from your organization's solutionsBuild on existing quality control frameworks (deterministic techniques, human-in-the-loop)Outcompete competitors by understanding the real limitations of these tools#AIReality #GenerativeSearch #PatternMatching #TechHype #AIImplementation #DevOps #CriticalThinking

Apply for the Nov 2025 Japan Leadership Experience - early registration rate now through May 31st! https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ How much of the Toyota Way is dependent on Japanese culture?And how much of it all comes down to… being human?There are questions I've explored with 130+ global leaders who've joined my Japan Leadership Experience programs. To help you answer this question, I've invited Tim Wolput – Japanologist and Toyota Way Management expert, to Chain of Learning.Together, we take a deep (and fun!) dive into the differences between classical Japanese and Western management and explore the cultural and historical roots of real lean leadership.In this episode, we travel through Japanese history—from Confucius' teachings to samurai and rice farming traditions, and Deming's influence on Japanese management. If you've ever wanted a masterclass on Japanese management and Toyota Way principles—and how you can apply these lessons to create a culture of excellence—these two episodes are a must-listen.YOU'LL LEARN:Misconceptions about the Toyota Way management practices and applying the principles across culturesDeming's influence on Japan and the development of the Toyota Production System and Toyota WayThe way of the samurai: Focus on the process, not just the outcomeShu-ha-ri: The process towards mastery and turning knowledge into wisdom by learning through doing The power of leading through influence and “doing the right thing”: true leadership inspires growth, not just resultsSubscribe so you don't miss Part 2, where we continue along this path of learning to explore the nuances of Japanese concepts like kata and obeya and their relationship to lean management practices today.ABOUT MY GUEST:Tim Wolput is a Japanologist and Toyota Way Management expert passionate about helping people transform themselves, their organizations, and the world for the better. Since 2023 Tim has been my in-country partner for my immersive Japan Leadership Experiences. Originally from Belgium, Tim has lived in Japan since 1999 where he attended Tokyo University Graduate School and studied traditional Japanese mathematics. Tim is a certified Toyota Way Management System instructor and consultant to global organizations on Lean, Agile, and Toyota Production System (TPS).IMPORTANT LINKS:Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/42Connect with Tim Wolput: linkedin.com/in/timwolputCheck out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.comFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Learn about my Japan Leadership Experience program: kbjanderson.com/JapanTrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:03:53 Biggest misconceptions about Toyota Way management practices05:10 Katie's perspective Japan versus the west08:46 The meaning of Shu Ha Ri and the traditional way of learning10:23 Deming's influence on Japan and The Toyota Way13:05 Why Japan embraced PDCA15:45 Difference in mindset between Asia and the west17:28 The working culture in Japan and how work together in the community22:17 Power of the supplier relationship23:40 Japanese leadership style29:15 Concept of doing the right thing30:56 How to focus on processes as the way to get results34:13 Powerful words of wisdom about the way of the samurai Apply for the Nov 2025 Japan Leadership Experience - early registration rate now through May 31st! https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/ 

How did Toyota emerge from Japan's crippled economy of WWII to become a leading car manufacturer globally? Was Diddy and Jimmy Page the worst collaboration of all time? Was the film Shazaam staring Sinbad the best comedy of the 90's?Kyle and Jheisson answer these questions and more as they efficiently make their way across Wikipedia from Lean Manufacturing to the Mandela Effect. TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@wikiuniversity YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmPDDjcbBJfR0s_xJfYCUvwInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/wikiuniversity/Music provided by Davey and the Chains

Uploaded Sunday 09.02.2025 17:07On Friday night, I reflect on books I read recently and put some ideas together that I haven't beforehand.Really happy I took the time.

Fredrik talks to Dejan Milicic about software development - understanding, methods, and stories. We start by talking about encapsulation of knowledge and the essential software in organizations. Almost every organization should - it can be argued - be developing software that solves their unique problems, and yet so many outsource so much of their knowledge encapsulation. Oh, and we can never completely encapsulate our knowledge in code either, so all the more reason to keep people who actually know what the code does and why around. Dejan tells us about his way to Ravendb and a developer relations role - and how you can craft your own job, stepping suitably outside of your comfort zone along the way. We also talk about shortening attention spans, daring to dig down a bit and find out about the context of things. Like the second sentence of some oft-repeated quote. Prohibit bad things, but help automate doing good things and avoid doing the bad things completely. Dejan shares some database backstories - why would someone want to build one more database? Specifically, what lead to the creation of Ravendb? And the very strong opinions which have been built into it. Avoiding falling into marketing-driven development. After that, we drift into talking about processes and how we work. Every organization is unique - which strongly speaks against adapting the “best practices” and methodologies of others. Or keeping things completely the same for too long. Innovation is also about doing what other people are not doing. Why is concurrency still hard? The free lunch has been over for twenty years! Functional programming and immutability offer ways forward, why aren’t these concepts spreading even more and faster? We get right back to understanding more context when Dejan discusses how few of us seem to have understood, just for example, the L in SOLID. Dive deeper, read more, and you will find new things and come up with new ideas. Finally, Dejan would like to see software development becoming just a little bit more mathematical. So that things can be established, verified and built on in a different way. Thank you Cloudnet for sponsoring our VPS! Comments, questions or tips? We a re @kodsnack, @tobiashieta, @oferlund and @bjoreman on Twitter, have a page on Facebook and can be emailed at info@kodsnack.se if you want to write longer. We read everything we receive. If you enjoy Kodsnack we would love a review in iTunes! You can also support the podcast by buying us a coffee (or two!) through Ko-fi. Links Dejan Ravendb Informatics Domain-driven design Event sourcing Data is worthless - said in episode 601 Developer relations Nosql databases Jack of all trades Jimmy - who introduced Fredrik to Dejan at Øredev 2024 Hibernate Relational databases Oren Eini - creator of Ravendb Antipatterns n+1 Couchbase Scrum Agile software development The Toyota approach The Scrum guide Unison programming language - VC funded Dr. Dobb’s journal The free lunch is over Concurrency SOLID Liskov substitution principle Repositories on top Unitofwork are not a good idea - by Rob Conery Elm Titles A mathematician turned software developer Coding, but without deadline Saturated with software development Encapsulation of knowledge A bit surreal Accept people as they are There’s a second line Professional depression Prevented, not diagnosed The pipeline kind of thinking Frustration-driven development (You shouldn’t be) Punished for being successful The largest company of his or her life so far Optimized for maintaining the status quo Wash away all the context Manager of one The proverbial Jira Substantial content Methods of moving forward

Vandaag bespreken we het boek The cutting edge van Bjørn Aris. Ondertitel The martial art of doing business. Aris begon zijn carrière bij ABN AMRO en daarna als investment bankier bij Lloyds Banking Group en NIBC. Na een reis door het verre Oosten startte hij een internetbedrijf, welke hij enkele jaren later verkocht. Zijn reis inspireerde hem om Oosterse wijsheden verder te onderzoeken als een manier van leven en wat mensen succesvol in werk maakt. Sinds 2000 werkt hij als spreker, trainer en consultant voor het bedrijfsleven. In zijn lezingen en trainingen combineert Aris zijn ervaring als investment banker en ondernemer met zijn kennis in oosterse filosofieën. Volgens Aris is innerlijke balans tussen lichaam en geest en tussen ratio (linkerhersenhelft) en intuïtie (rechterhersenhelft) de sleutel tot succes. Hiervoor is een ontspannen toestand vereist. Bjørn Aris ontwikkelde op basis van zijn bevindingen in 2004 een methode die mensen helpt effectiever te leren en gedragsverandering toe te passen. Hij koppelt hierbij theorie aan beweging, waardoor de ratio wordt omzeild en nieuwe cognitieve verbindingen worden aangemaakt. De oorspronkelijke titel was De zon komt op in het Oosten (2011), dit werd The cutting edge in 2012. Wij lazen de vierde druk uit 2019. Zijn tweede boek De lessen van een Samoerai dat we eerder hebben besproken uit 2020. Voor mij is er een duidelijk verschil in zijn eerste en tweede boek. In dit boek staan veel algemeenheden zonder verwijzingen waar Bjorn dit vandaan heeft. Meest interessante is het laatste hoofdstuk met suggesties wat we in het Westen kunnen gebruiken uit de Japanse wereld in het bedrijf en als mens. Boek Inleiding Het probleem Wat westerse bedrijven van Japan kunnen leren Japanse kennis - het Japanse zwaard, de bron Hoe word je succesvol? Japanse lessen in de praktijk Nawoord Inleiding Japanse oplossingen voor westerse problemen aan de hand van de Japanse Weg van het zwaard. Het probleem Westers denken leunt op ratio. Door scheiding lichaam en geest (Grieken) en de mens centraal te stellen zijn we de verbinding met anderen en de natuur kwijt geraakt. De hang naar materie is ons aangeleerd en kunnen we dus ook eer loslaten. Belemmerende factoren: conditionering, ego en angst. De geldwereld heeft de verbinding met de reële economie verloren. p15 allemaal problemen in het westerse bedrijfsleven. Inleiding naar volgende hoofdstuk Wat westerse bedrijven van Japan kunnen leren Hier wordt vooral de Toyota Way en het kaizen-principe besproken.  Bijzonder op p27 worden de resultaten genoemd van Toyota - in 2010 - terwijl jaar daarvoor verlies wordt gedraaid en er een terugroepactie is. In het vorige hoofdstuk praat hij over angst als belemmerende factor. In dit hoofdstuk op p29 heeft hij het over de angst voor uitsluiting in Japan en zelfdoding van de Japanse directeur. Klinkt niet als een goed voorbeeld. Bjorn kiest daarom waarschijnlijk voor cherry-picking. Uitleg over Bunsha - Japanse managementmethode. - Zie ook boek Start Up Factory over Haier. De meest natuurlijke manier om te groeien, is door te delen (celdeling). Gecontroleerde groei. Intrinsieke motivatie: verlangen naar vrijheid. Vertrouwen, erkenning en respect zijn belangrijkste waarden voor werknemer. Belangrijkste te doen is goed voor de klant zorgen. Focus op het proces in het hier en nu en niet op het resultaat. In Japan ben je geen ik, maar wordt je ik gevormd door de relaties die je hebt. Management is beheersen van processen en werknemers, leiderschap is juist loslaten daarvan. Japanse kennis - het Japanse zwaard, de bron p56 weer de mooie uitspraken in Japan tussen je 70e ne 80e piek je. Als je inzicht in het leven verkrijgt 10 minuten voor je sterft ben je op tijd. Tot die tijd,... gewoon doortrainen. De vorm is het begin, dan volgt de ontwikkeling en tenslotte volgt loslaten. Bijzonder hoofdstuk.

BONUS: Rediscovering Agile's Roots, What We Can Learn From Lean Manufacturing with Doug Rabow In this BONUS episode, we reconnect with Doug Rabow, a previous guest and an expert in Lean-Agile strategic management known for his dedication to fostering empowered teams and enhancing processes through Lean principles. This discussion dives into the foundations of Lean, its evolution from manufacturing, and how software development can benefit from these time-tested methodologies. Join us as we uncover how adopting Lean can transform software practices and culture to align more closely with the true spirit of Agile. Introduction to Lean and the Toyota Production System (TPS) "Lean isn't just a methodology; it's an ongoing journey of learning and problem-solving." Doug begins by mapping out the origins of Lean and its cornerstone, the Toyota Production System (TPS) (Wikipedia article on TPS). Initially crafted to solve operational challenges in manufacturing, TPS introduced principles aimed at efficiency and continual improvement. Doug underscores that while Agile has gained broader recognition, Lean provides an essential, often overlooked foundation that extends beyond frameworks like Lean Six Sigma or isolated process improvements. "Lean isn't a set-and-forget solution; it's about cultivating an evolving culture of problem-solving." Cultural Foundations of Lean: Adapting for Software Teams "Respect for people and a culture of continuous improvement form the heartbeat of Lean." Transitioning to software development, Doug highlights the core cultural tenets that empower teams to excel. He points out that scaling these principles—such as fostering a culture where problem-solving is embedded in daily practices—is vital due to the complexities of software as a people-driven process. Referencing Conway's Law, Doug illustrates how the structure of teams directly impacts code and workflow. "Developing software is as much about building teams as it is about building products. Lean teaches us that these are inseparable." The Toyota Way: A Blueprint for Excellence "Applying Lean is about chasing excellence, not just managing tasks." Jeffrey Liker's The Toyota Way introduces 14 principles that Doug relates to software environments, emphasizing the value of discipline and respect for people. He discusses the importance of aligning processes with long-term strategies and ensuring that these processes are designed to foster continuous learning. Doug reiterates that truly understanding and integrating Lean requires more than surface-level adoption. "Respect for people isn't an add-on in Lean; it's the root of a thriving, innovative team culture." Waste in Software Development: Insights from the Poppendiecks "Work in progress is not an asset; it's a liability." Doug shares insights from Mary and Tom Poppendieck's (Mary and Tom have been on our podcast here) pioneering work on Lean Software Development, particularly their adaptation of waste types from manufacturing to software. These include partially done work, extra features, relearning, handoffs, and task switching. Doug points out that waste reduction strategies—such as Kanban and pull systems—help teams minimize bottlenecks and optimize flow. "Software development, like manufacturing, benefits from visualizing value streams and focusing on reducing waste." Metrics and Measurement in Lean "The right process will create the right results—focus on process metrics, not individual metrics." In Lean, metrics are crucial for assessing and refining processes. Doug advocates for using metrics like cycle time and throughput to provide teams with insights into system efficiency. He explains how focusing on process metrics rather than individual productivity helps sustain a culture that prioritizes team learning and growth. "When we measure what truly matters—the process—we empower teams to solve problems collectively and improve outcomes." About Doug Rabow Doug Rabow is a dedicated practitioner of Lean-Agile strategic management with an emphasis on building empowered teams and optimizing processes through Lean methodologies. His extensive experience in applying Lean principles in software development has made him a trusted voice in the Agile and Lean community. You can link with https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougrabow.

Boost team results by measuring carefully and using consistent methods to move toward your goal–with “scientific thinking” “the Improvement Kata” and “the Coaching Kata”. In this bumper episode, Squirrel and Jeffrey discuss quality and delivery the Toyota Way. Links: - Toyota Kata: https://public.websites.umich.edu/~jmondisa/TK/Homepage.html - Gemba: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba Other relevant episodes: - Episode 214 - Get Your Reps In: https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/get-your-reps-in -------------------------------------------------- You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

Do you want to update your method of selling title insurance? Ryan D'Aprile reveals the innovative sales strategies that will transform your title business. From harnessing the power of technology to building unbreakable relationships, he's got the formula for success. So, if you're ready to learn the secrets of the trade, don't miss out on this episode.       What you'll learn from this episode Benefits of creating a sales culture from the ground up Importance of relationship-based sales The visual flow of sales processes for tracking and improving relationship management Dangers of overly relying on technology at the expense of personal relationships Actionable steps for establishing a sales culture in title companies      Resources mentioned in this episode  The Toyota Way by Jeffrey Liker | Paperback, Hardcover, and Kindle  E-Myth by Michael E. Gerber | Paperback, Hardcover, and Kindle  The Happiness Advantage by Shawn Achor | Paperback, Hardcover, and Kindle  TitlePro DataTrace®     About Ryan D'Aprile Ryan is the founder of D'Aprile Properties and Zanelo, with extensive experience in real estate, mortgage, title, and insurance. He successfully built one of the Midwest's leading real estate brokerages, which was known for its strong sales culture and innovative training programs. Ryan is now focused on his latest venture, Zanelo, which aims to revolutionize title sales by combining digital systems with a personal touch. His expertise lies in relationship-based sales, visualizing sales processes, and creating disciplined sales cultures that drive growth and success.     Connect with Ryan Website: Xannello  LinkedIn: Ryan D'Aprile     Connect With Us Love what you're hearing? Don't miss an episode! Follow us on our social media channels and stay connected.    Explore more on our website: www.alltechnational.com/podcast Stay updated with our newsletter: www.mochoumil.com Follow Mo on LinkedIn: Mo Choumil

In this episode of the GASB Podcast, host Troy Trewin interviews John Lenker and Assaf Arie from Lenker Consulting, a firm specializing in strategic marketing and business growth. They share insights on scaling their business from 4 to 14 team members, achieving 10x revenue growth, and helping clients save millions. With over 22 years of experience, they discuss the challenges and successes of building a value-driven company. Why would you wait any longer to start living the lifestyle you signed up for? Balance your health, wealth, relationships and business growth. And focus your time and energy and make the most of this year. Let's get into it by clicking here. Troy delves into our guest's startup journey, their perception of success, industry reconsideration, and the pivotal stress point during business expansion. They discuss the joys of small business growth, vital entrepreneurial habits, and strategies for team building, encompassing wins, blunders, and invaluable advice. And a snapshot of the final five Grow A Small Business Questions: What do you think is the hardest thing in growing a small business? John Lenker and Assaf Arie believe the hardest part of growing a small business is managing emotional and practical challenges, staying resilient after setbacks, and understanding the industry. Balancing growth with payroll and hiring adds stress, especially when taking risks on new hires. They emphasize patience in building client relationships at the right pace to avoid overwhelming them. What's your favorite business book that has helped you the most? John Lenker and Assaf Arie often reference The Toyota Way as their favorite business book. They appreciate how it showcases a mindset shift in the automotive industry, demonstrating more efficient, profitable methods of production. The book's lessons on optimizing processes and continuous improvement resonate with them and have influenced their approach to business growth and innovation. Are there any great podcasts or online learning resources you'd recommend to help grow a small business? John Lenker and Assaf Arie recommend using Active Campaign for CRM and marketing automation and Webflow for building websites and landing pages. They also mention enjoying the Joe Rogan podcast for a break from business. What tool or resource would you recommend to grow a small business? John Lenker and Assaf Arie recommend using Active Campaign for CRM and marketing automation and Webflow for building digital environments like websites and landing pages. What advice would you give yourself on day one of starting out in business? John Lenker and Assaf Arie advise that starting a business will be much harder than anticipated. They suggest being prepared for significant challenges and understanding that things will get tougher before they get easier. Book a 20-minute Growth Chat with Troy Trewin to see if you qualify for our upcoming course. Don't miss out on this opportunity to take your small business to new heights! Enjoyed the podcast? Please leave a review on iTunes or your preferred platform. Your feedback helps more small business owners discover our podcast and embark on their business growth journey.     Quotable quotes from our special Grow A Small Business podcast guest: The second you run out of problems, you're out of business – be grateful for them – John Lenker & Assaf Arie Create a culture from your values, not just what the crowd is doing – John Lenker & Assaf Arie Get excited about what a new hire can do for you, and trust them to do their job – John Lenker & Assaf Arie    

Unlock the powerful leadership mindset that transformed Toyota into the most efficient and effective car manufacturer in the world.Become a Master of the Close: https://www.masteroftheclose.com/waitlistConnect with Nigel ThurlowFlow System: https://www.getflowtrained.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelthurlow/In this enlightening conversation with Nigel Thurlow, Toyota's pioneering Chief Agile Officer, we uncover how "Scrum for Toyota Way" and Nigel's book, "The Flow System," can be applied across various industries. Learn the art of balancing efficiency with effectiveness and avoid the pitfalls of over-automation to ensure top-notch product delivery.Shift your perspective on mindset and team dynamics as we dissect the pseudoscience behind collective mindset theories. With examples from naval aviation and corporate environments, we spotlight the importance of effective communication, cooperation, and conflict resolution within teams. Understand how individual mindsets, shaped by nature, nurture, and experience, impact overall team productivity, and discover strategies to nurture a positive and collaborative work environment.Embrace the future of team flexibility through dynamic reteaming. Discover how fostering high trust and psychological safety empowers team members to reteam autonomously in response to evolving project needs. Drawing from real-world examples, we discuss the critical role of leaders in supporting their teams by providing resources and acting as stewards without micromanagement. From shaping a positive work culture to understanding the financial wisdom crucial for long-term success, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you and your team thrive.

Unlock the powerful leadership mindset that transformed Toyota into the most efficient and effective car manufacturer in the world.Become a Master of the Close: https://www.masteroftheclose.com/waitlistConnect with Nigel ThurlowFlow System: https://www.getflowtrained.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelthurlow/In this enlightening conversation with Nigel Thurlow, Toyota's pioneering Chief Agile Officer, we uncover how "Scrum for Toyota Way" and Nigel's book, "The Flow System," can be applied across various industries. Learn the art of balancing efficiency with effectiveness and avoid the pitfalls of over-automation to ensure top-notch product delivery.Shift your perspective on mindset and team dynamics as we dissect the pseudoscience behind collective mindset theories. With examples from naval aviation and corporate environments, we spotlight the importance of effective communication, cooperation, and conflict resolution within teams. Understand how individual mindsets, shaped by nature, nurture, and experience, impact overall team productivity, and discover strategies to nurture a positive and collaborative work environment.Embrace the future of team flexibility through dynamic reteaming. Discover how fostering high trust and psychological safety empowers team members to reteam autonomously in response to evolving project needs. Drawing from real-world examples, we discuss the critical role of leaders in supporting their teams by providing resources and acting as stewards without micromanagement. From shaping a positive work culture to understanding the financial wisdom crucial for long-term success, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you and your team thrive.

Today I wanted to talk about a philosophy called The Toyota Way. The Toyota Way is a comprehensive framework that extends far beyond the auto industry, emphasizing efficiency, innovation, and respect for people to create lasting success. At its heart, it's about fostering a culture where continuous improvement and problem-solving are central, with a strong recognition that people—not just processes—are the driving force behind a successful business. Originally developed in post-war Japan to address resource scarcity, the system has evolved into a refined approach that touches every part of an organization, from operations to leadership. Over time, what started as a response to immediate challenges has become a universal framework adaptable to any industry. At Sanctuary, we've embraced many of these core concepts, integrating them into our best practices and even our core values. The Toyota Way's emphasis on empowering workers, encouraging critical thinking, and aligning everyone toward shared goals -- just to mention a few -- have been instrumental in our success. By focusing on lean, adaptable systems that prioritize long-term gains over short-term fixes, Toyota has created a model that you can follow too. Ready to hear more? Let's jump into it!

Nigel is the CEO of The Flow Consortium and one of the most sought-after speakers and experts in Lean, Agile, and Flow methods. He was Toyota's first Chief of Agile, where he co-created The Flow System and the award-winning Scrum, the Toyota Way approach. Nigel has trained 8,500+ people in Scrum, Agile, Lean, Flow, and Complexity approaches. His coaching portfolio includes GE, Bose, 3M, Microsoft, Vodafone, Lumen, Cox Automotive, and MIT. He is a Forbes Invite-only Coaches Council member and will be listed in the Who's Who's America later this year. Nigel has co-authored many peer-reviewed papers and books on methods and approaches to accelerating business transformation, including the renowned “The "low System” series. He is a highly sought-after international keynote speaker and will appear on the TV series Advancements, which aired on Bloomberg and Amazon Prime in June 2024. https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigelthurlow/ Quick recap Lean Thinking and Empowering Workers Nigel and Michael discussed their experiences and perspectives on lean thinking and its application in various work environments. Recalling his time at Toyota, Nigel emphasized the importance of eliminating non-value-added activities and the concept of 'Gemba,' which refers to the actual place where the work is done. He also highlighted the significance of empowering people closest to the work and giving them decision-making authority. Michael shared a nurse's story from a healthcare setting, illustrating how lean principles can be applied to improve efficiency and safety. Both agreed on the need for a balance between enhancing processes and respecting the autonomy and expertise of workers. Empowering People, Psychological Safety, and Flow Nigel and Michael discussed the importance of empowering people in an organization, particularly those closest to the work. They emphasized the value of giving employees agency, voice, and ownership in decision-making, which improves their psychological well-being and leads to better outcomes for the organization. They also touched on the concept of psychological safety and how it fosters a culture of trust and collaboration. Lastly, they introduced the idea of the flow system, which they described as a game-changer for organizations. Developing a Context-Based Learning System Nigel discussed the development and purpose of a system of learning and understanding based on three key areas: complexity, thinking, distributed leadership, and team science. He emphasized the interconnectedness of these areas and the importance of moving away from rigid frameworks and prescriptive approaches. Instead, he advocated for a context-based approach that considers the effectiveness and utility of tools in specific contexts. Nigel also highlighted the significance of psychological safety, the power distance index, and other leadership aspects in this system. Understanding Flow System Dynamics Nigel and Michael discussed the concept of the flow system, which combines various tools and techniques. Michael emphasized the importance of understanding the flow system's dynamics, likening it to a non-linear, squiggly line rather than a straight one. He highlighted that while unpredictable factors like wars and pandemics can disrupt the flow, a comprehensive understanding of the components and ingredients can help mitigate potential issues. Teamwork, Flow, and Customer Perspective Michael emphasized the importance of teamwork and supporting each other, especially those struggling. Nigel then discussed the concept of 'flow,' which he described as a psychological state of being fully engaged in and focused on a task or activity. He highlighted that teams must be free from fear and boredom to maintain flow by providing meaningful, challenging, and purposeful work. Nigel also stressed the importance of understanding the value of their work from the perspective of the customer or receiver. Michael agreed, pointing out that when people feel part of a team, they are more likely to contribute and keep things moving.

Mike is Executive Director for the Center for Quality People & Organizations (CQPO). Mike Hoseus brings both manufacturing operations and specialization in Human Resource experience to CQPO. CQPO is an organization developed in 1999 as a vision of Toyota Motor Manufacturing to share Lean Quality philosophy and human resource practices with education, business, and community organizations. CQPO current projects with Toyota include New Hire selection and training process, Team Leader and Group Leader post promotion training, Quality Circle Leader and Manager training, and Global Problem Solving for all levels. Mike is co author with Dr. Jeffery Liker (Author of the Toyota Way) of Toyota Culture. Mike is an adjunct professor with the Lean Enterprise Institute. Prior to CQPO, Mike was a corporate leader for 13 years at Toyota Motor Manufacturing's Georgetown, Kentucky, plant both in Human Resources and Manufacturing. As Assistant General Manager in Human Resources, his responsibilities included personnel, safety, HR development, employee relations, benefits, training, and manufacturing/human resource teams for a plant of 8000 team members. His major initiative was development of the enhanced relationship between Human Resource and Manufacturing. Mike's operational responsibilities in manufacturing started in 1987 as a front line supervisor in vehicle assembly. This included all aspects of safety, quality, productivity, cost and morale for operations. With experience as Assembly Plant Manager and eventually Assistant General Manager, his responsibilities increased to include both assembly plants including operations, maintenance, and engineering. Mike currently supports organizations with Lean Culture transformations focusing on the roles of Executive Management and Human Resources and how the Quality People Value Stream integrates with the Operations Value Stream. Mike has served and contributed to numerous community boards such as the Kentucky Community and Technical College System and the Lexington Mayor's Partnership for Youth. Mike has degrees in Business and Psychology from Xavier University and a Masters of Arts in Counseling from Asbury Theological Seminary. Mike's wife, Suzy and he are co-founders of CMH, Inc. and Life Learning Ministries and have three children, Ben, Leah and Lindsay as well as daughter in law, Jessica (Ben).Link to claim CME credit: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3DXCFW3CME credit is available for up to 3 years after the stated release dateContact CEOD@bmhcc.org if you have any questions about claiming credit.

For more info and to apply for the Japan Study Trip: KBJAnderson.com/JapanTrip/To enter for a chance to win John Willis' book "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge:" ChainOfLearning.com/24If you're passionate about continuous improvement, quality, or operational excellence, chances are Dr. W. Edwards Deming has shaped your journey—even if you haven't realized it yet.But do you know how this influence came about and the profound impact Deming's management theories have had on shaping quality and improvement approaches such as Lean, Agile, and DevOps?I've invited John Willis, author of "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge," to today's episode to explore Deming's learning journey to become the father of the quality movement and how he influenced the development of the Toyota Production System and Japan's rebirth following World War II.We discuss Deming's pioneering management teachings and how you can apply his System of Profound Knowledge to solve problems in today's complex work environments.We also explore the four lenses of the System of Profound Knowledge—appreciation for a system, understanding variation, theory of knowledge, and psychology—and how integrating these concepts can elevate your approach to leadership and improvement.Tune in to discover how you can apply these management theories to solve the complex problems within your organization today.YOU'LL LEARN: The fundamental essence of leadership and how connecting people with purpose can drive organizational success.The significance of Deming's System of Profound Knowledge and the integration of its four components.How experiencing lean principles in action differs from theoretical knowledge and why it's critical for effective change leadership.The role of psychological safety in fostering an environment where everyone's input is valued.Insights on how Deming's principles apply to contemporary challenges, such as generative AI, emphasizing the importance of operational definitions and probability in managing complex systems.IMPORTANT LINKS:Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/24John's book “Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge” - hereGet thebook “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn”  LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.comWork with me: KBJAnderson.comConnect with John Willis: linkedin.com/in/johnwillisatlantaFollow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjandersonLearn more about the Japan Study Trip leadership program: KBJAnderson.com/JapanTripTIMESTAMPS:[00:00] An introduction to today's guest and author of "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge," John Willis[05:04] Dr. Deming's concept of profound knowledge[05:43] The four elements to understand complexity [12:23] How the Toyota Way pillar of Continuous Improvement = Wisdom and Kaizen [20:13] The impact of a collaborative culture [24:03] Deming's people-centered leadership approach [28:56] John's key takeaways a year after joining my executive Japan Study Trip leadership program[41:39] John's advice on applying Deming's principles today and the development of GenAI For more info and to apply for the Japan Study Trip: KBJAnderson.com/JapanTrip/To enter for a chance to win John Willis' book "Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge:" ChainOfLearning.com/24

The true measure of a successful leader lies not just in achieving organizational goals, but in the ability to build and develop their people. Investing in the growth and well-being of team members fosters a culture of trust, innovation, and collaboration. That's what Lead to Succeed guest Nigel Thurlow will be focusing on in this episode. Nigel is the CEO of The Flow Consortium and one of the most sought-after speakers and experts in Lean, Agile, and Flow methods. He was Toyota's first Chief of Agile, where he co-created The Flow System and the award-winning Scrum the Toyota Way approach. Nigel has trained 8,500+ people in Scrum, Agile, Lean, Flow, and Complexity approaches and his coaching portfolio includes GE, Bose, 3M, Microsoft, Vodafone, Lumen, Cox Automotive, and MIT. He is a member of Forbes' invite-only Coaches Council organization and is due to be listed in the Who's Who of America later this year. Nigel has co-authored many peer-reviewed papers and books on methods and approaches to accelerate business transformation, including the renowned “The Flow System” series. He is a highly sought-after international keynote speaker and will appear on the TV series Advancements, which will feature on Bloomberg and Amazon Prime, in June 2024. Listen in to learn the power of building your people.

Boost team results by measuring carefully and using consistent methods to move toward your goal–with “the Coaching Kata”. In part three of this mini series, Squirrel and Jeffrey discuss quality and delivery the Toyota Way. Links: - Toyota Kata: https://public.websites.umich.edu/~jmondisa/TK/Homepage.html - Gemba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba Other relevant episodes: - https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/get-your-reps-in - https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/toyota-kata-part-i - https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/toyota-kata-part-ii -------------------------------------------------- You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

Boost team results by measuring carefully and using consistent methods to move toward your goal–with “the Improvement Kata”. In part two of our Toyota Kata series, Squirrel and Jeffrey discuss quality and delivery the Toyota Way. Links: - Toyota Kata: https://public.websites.umich.edu/~jmondisa/TK/Homepage.html - Gemba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba Other relevant episodes: https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/get-your-reps-in https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/toyota-kata-part-i -------------------------------------------------- You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

Boost team results by measuring carefully and using consistent methods to move toward your goal–with “scientific thinking”. In this episode of Troubleshooting Agile, Squirrel and Jeffrey discuss quality and delivery the Toyota Way. Links: - Toyota Kata: https://public.websites.umich.edu/~jmondisa/TK/Homepage.html - Gemba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba Other relevant episodes: https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/get-your-reps-in [previous episodes in this mini-series] -------------------------------------------------- You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com -------------------------------------------------- About Your Hosts Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication. Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html effrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/

My guest for Episode #508 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast is Mike Hoseus, Executive Director of the Center for Quality People and Organizations and President of Lean Culture Enterprises. Episode page with video, transcript, and more He supports organizations in their lean journey, focusing on leadership and cultural aspects of the lean transformation. He is an adjunct professor with the University of Kentucky's Center for Manufacturing. Michael Hoseus developed his TPS skills at Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky, where he worked at the General Manager level in both Production and Human Resources, being mentored by his Japanese sensei. His Toyota process experience includes production, engineering, maintenance, safety, personnel, employee relations, benefits/payroll and training and development. He learned first-hand how Toyota's success hinges on integrating their production and human systems to create the Toyota Way.  He's co-author, with Jeff Liker, of Toyota Culture: The Heart and Soul of the Toyota Way — which received the Shingo Publication Award in 2009 In this episode, Mike shares his extensive experience with Toyota, where he developed his TPS skills at TMMK in Georgetown, Kentucky. We take a deep dive into key topics such as the importance of psychological safety in lean leadership, the origins of the andon cord, and how to build a high-performance culture. Mike discusses his journey from Toyota to helping other organizations with lean transformation, emphasizing the critical role of leadership in fostering a culture of continuous improvement. He shares insights on problem identification and problem-solving, the significance of respect and trust, and the intentional development of a lean culture. Join us for this engaging conversation with valuable lessons and stories from Mike's career. Don't miss out on the chance to learn from one of the leading experts in lean culture and transformation. Mike is also organizing a Kentucky learning tour, “High-Performance Culture and Lean Leadership,” from October 15 to 17… I'll be there and am very much looking forward to it. Use code GRABAN to save $500.

In this episode of the Arguing Agile podcast, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel explore the importance of asking for help across various roles, including developers, testers, UI/UX designers, managers and executives. The podcast explores the common reasons people avoid seeking help, such as ego, fear of appearing weak or incompetent, and cultural factors.Listen to this podcast if you want to discover the benefits of fostering a culture where asking for help is encouraged, and learn practical tips for instilling this mindset in your team. Whether you're an individual contributor or a leader, this episode will provide valuable insights to help you and your organization succeed through collaboration and continuous improvement.Keywords:asking for help, collaboration, coaching, leadership, team culture, developers, testers, UI/UX designers, managers, executives, ego, fear, incompetence, Toyota Way, agile, scrum= = = = = = = = = = = =Watch it on YouTubeSubscribe to our YouTube Channel:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8XUSoJPxGPI8EtuUAHOb6g?sub_confirmation=1Apple Podcasts:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/agile-podcast/id1568557596Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/362QvYORmtZRKAeTAE57v3Amazon Music:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ee3506fc-38f2-46d1-a301-79681c55ed82/Agile-Podcast= = = = = = = = = = = =AA168 - Why Asking for Help is Critical for Success

Doug Rabow: Prioritize, Visualize, Execute, A Lean Approach to Work Management in Agile Teams Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Doug explores some of the critical aspects of team management that ensure efficiency and clarity. Doug also shares how visual management is essential for maintaining focus on top priorities within teams. We learn about the Five S from Lean, and how simplifying and visually organizing work can prevent priority confusion and, in the end, improve productivity. Featured Book of the Week: The Toyota Way by Jeffrey Liker In this episode, we explore lessons from The Toyota Way by Jeffrey Liker beyond manufacturing. Doug describes how The Toyota Way applies to strategic management and software development, focusing on high-quality, small batches. Discover how continuous feedback drives continuous improvement, and what Agile learned from Lean Manufacturing.   [IMAGE HERE] Do you wish you had decades of experience? Learn from the Best Scrum Masters In The World, Today! The Tips from the Trenches - Scrum Master edition audiobook includes hours of audio interviews with SM's that have decades of experience: from Mike Cohn to Linda Rising, Christopher Avery, and many more. Super-experienced Scrum Masters share their hard-earned lessons with you. Learn those today, make your teams awesome!     About Doug Rabow Doug is a passionate practitioner of Lean-Agile strategic management with a focus on developing empowered teams and Lean process improvement.   You can link with Doug Rabow on LinkedIn.

This episode is sponsored by Lockton, click here to learn more Watch the full video on YouTube - click hereIn this episode of the Automotive Leaders Podcast, host Jan Griffiths dives into the findings of the 24th Annual North American Automotive OEM and Supplier Working Relations Index (WRI) with guests Dave Andrea of Plante Moran, who led the study, and Sig Huber, Chief Commercial Officer for ELM Analytics.Dave starts by giving a macro-level overview of the industry's recent challenges, from electrification and new market competitors to supply chain disruptions and cost inflation. Despite these hurdles, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and General Motors have emerged as top performers in the WRI. Toyota, in particular, saw another significant 30-point increase, reflecting their strong culture of continuous improvement and respect for people, known as The Toyota Way.They discuss General Motors, which has shown steady improvement despite leadership changes. Dave credits the company's progress to the consistent focus on supplier relations by successive Vice Presidents of Purchasing. Sig emphasizes that GM's efforts under leaders like Steve Kiefer have embedded supplier relationship management deeply into the company's culture.Jan and Dave then address the decline in Ford's ratings, attributing it to organizational challenges and a more command-and-control purchasing style. Sig warns that Ford's recent UAW negotiations and slower-than-expected EV adoption rates add to their struggles.On a brighter note, Stellantis shows signs of improvement under Marlo Vitous's leadership despite a rocky past with supplier relations. However, Jan questions how much Stellantis's top executives value the WRI.In their closing comments, Dave and Sig reflect on the industry's future and the need for change. Dave emphasizes adapting business practices to navigate uncertain technology trends and regulatory issues. Sig highlights the industry's resilience, stressing that collaboration and trust with suppliers are crucial for overcoming challenges.Themes discussed in this episode:Understanding the significance of the Automotive OEM-Supplier Working Relations Index (WRI) Study as a tool for assessing industry performance and supplier relationsAddressing electrification, supply chain disruptions, and cost inflation and their impact on OEM-supplier relationshipAnalyzing the cultural and organizational elements that contribute to Toyota's enduring success, including continuous improvement, respect for people, and long-term relationship-buildingThe influence of leadership changes, such as Vice Presidents of Purchasing, on supplier relations and organizational performanceFord's decline in WRI scores and the organizational issues contributing to challenges in supplier relations and performanceThe role of effective communication in fostering strong relationships between OEMs and suppliers.The importance of trust and collaboration between OEMs and suppliers in navigating future challenges.Featured guest: Dave AndreaWhat he does: Dave Andrea leads the

Want to go on the ULTIMATE exocad (https://exocad.com/) vacation? Endless fun, epic weather, amazing food, exotic culture, and two days all about the greatest software in dental, exocad. Join Elvis and Barb on May 9 and 10 on the beautiful Spanish island of Mallorca (https://www.spain.info/en/region/mallorca-island/). It's called exocad Insights 2024 and it's full of amazing speakers, great breakout sessions, evening events, and attendees from all over the world. Don't wait, register today at exocad.com/insights2024 and use the code VFTB15 to save 15% off the fee. We will see you there! On June 9 & 10, Voices From the Bench will be back at the Florida Dental Lab Association Symposium (https://www.fdla.net/symposium) that's to the wonderful people at Jensen Dental (https://jensendental.com/). Be sure to check out FDLA.NET to see the line up and to register. This week we start the conversations that we recorded in the Ivoclar Ballroom during Lab Day Chicago 2024. This week brings us: Michael Wandling from Summit-Horizon Dental Lab (https://www.summit-horizon.com/) talking about writing the question for the CDT tests and working on getting enough CDTs to become a Master CDT. Vinod Dudhat tells the story of changing careers after coming to America from India and opening American Dental Designs (https://americandentaldesigns.com/) that sees the value of offering education to dentists. Brian Johns, who was a fixed technician that wanted to add removable to his lab Spectrum Dental Science (https://spectrumdentalscience.com/). Thanks to Ivoclar, Ivotion, and the PM7, Brian was able to bring in digital dentures and eventually full arch fixed hybrids. Rob Fletcher loves lean manufacturing. Starting in the automotive industry, Rob was recruited to bring lean manufacturing to Knight Dental and is now bringing it to Bayshore Dental Studio (https://bayshoredentalstudio.com/). Rob explains the process and how labs can eliminate waste and increase productivity. Wanting to take your knowledge and skills to the next level? If you are looking for the best education dedicated to dentistry in both the labs and clinics, check out Ivoclar Academy. (https://resources.ivoclar.com/lab/en/academy) From on-demand webinars to in-person training, Ivoclar Academy has a program to meet your busy schedule. Check out all they have to offer HERE! (https://resources.ivoclar.com/lab/en/academy) Whether you are looking to elevate your craftsmanship or looking to cut back costs, look no further – VITA MFT Teeth (https://vitanorthamerica.com/en-US/VITA-MFT-Anterior-369,273,126133.html) are the ultimate solution for creating lifelike and stunning smiles. Crafted with precision and backed by cutting-edge technology, VITA MFT Teeth offers unparalleled esthetics and durability. And since VITA (https://vitanorthamerica.com/) believes in the power of experiencing excellence firsthand, for a limited time only, they're offering you the chance to get a complimentary case sample. That's right, a full case, absolutely free. Just visit vitanorthamerica.com/freemft (https://www2.vitanorthamerica.com/mft/) Don't wait any longer to start providing your customers with a premium tooth at an economy price. Redeem your free case sample and if you're ready to buy, VITA will even give you an extra 10% discount by shopping online on their newly launched online store. Join the VITA family today. Join Elvis & Barb as Voices From the Bench goes international! On May 9th and 10th, the podcast will be recording at https://exocad.com/insights2024 on the beautiful Spanish island of Mallorca (https://www.seemallorca.com/). This is a fantastic educational event for all of you in the lab industry – and your clinical colleagues! The international speaker line-up is top-notch. There will be: keynote presentations from master dental technicians, digital experts, implant surgeons, lab owners, and more! Exocad's software experts will run hands-on sessions so you can get to know the latest releases…including DentalCAD 3.2 Elefsina (https://exocad.com/our-products/dentalcad-elefsina)…which was released recently. Techs…. Do you have a problem with a design? Just bring your stl file and let the Application Specialists take a look at it. Check out exocad.com/insights2024 to see the AMAZING line up of speakers and to register. Use promo code VFTB15 to save 15% off registration to what will be one of the greatest events of the year. See you there! Special Guests: Brian K. Johns, Michael Wandling CDT, Rob Fletcher, and Vinod Dudhat.

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.Transcript: ​Agile.FM radio for the agile community. [00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Welcome to another episode of Agile FM in the Agile Kata Series here. Today I have two authors. I have an author on the call and I have a character. I have two characters from a book and a comic illustration, which is called Engaging the Team at Zingerman's Mail Order. That is Betty Gratopp and Jeffrey Liker.Thank you for joining me here today. [00:00:34] Betty Gratopp: Thank you for having me. [00:00:37] Joe Krebs: All right. So this is a book, the it's a comic. And this book was published in 2023. And it's really a book that illustrates the journey from, in, in terms of Kata up at Zingerman's mail order. And before we talk a little bit about the lean journey, What is Zingerman?Zingerman, I have visited Zingerman in Ann Arbor myself. It's a mail order business of a a company that is shipping the most wonderful cheeses and breads. I can smell it in the in the warehouse. And but there's much, much more to it. Betty, what is the size? What's the scope of Zingerman's?What do listeners have to picture? Not familiar necessarily with the service? What do you guys do and how big is the operation? [00:01:20] Betty Gratopp: Oh, excellent. That's a great question. We are a warehouse and a call center. The warehouse employs approximately 55 people year round, and then we grow to a peak of about 400.Warehouse staff people during our Christmas holiday at the service center. I would say is about 20,25 people and they have, they experienced the same growth during that peak season. [00:01:45] Joe Krebs: Yeah, excellent. In the comic, you are a warehouse manager. [00:01:49] Betty Gratopp: Yes, I am one of three warehouse managers that manage the warehouse and have been the three warehouse managers that have taken us through our lean journey and our transformation to trying to be better scientific thinkers.[00:02:05] Joe Krebs: And as a character, you were visualized by the illustrator, Jasmine Morales, who is visualized this entire comic, the book, and she did a really good job knowing you obviously listeners cannot see you right now, but this picture is really nice. So is. Jeffrey as a character also drawn in the in the comic [00:02:24] Jeffrey Liker: and Skinnier and better looking in the comic.[00:02:28] Joe Krebs: And Jeffrey, I do have to mention the other two authors on the book. That's Eduardo Lander and Tom Root, which are not on the podcast today. But we are talking about this book, the three of us. More importantly than the book itself, obviously describes a story that describes a bumpy story of introducing lean and Kata within a Zingermanwhen did your journey start? What was the situation like that led to it? And obviously the origin of the book, that's where everything started, basically. [00:03:03] Betty Gratopp: Yes. I think back to 2003 when our business was growing in double digits. So we were a bunch of. Intended foodies who started this business and then had to get better at process because we weren't doing very well.We were not schooled or learned in anything that had to do with process. That was the environment. So we didn't know how many people to hire. We didn't know how much space we needed. We didn't know how many sales we could take. Really basic things about our business were not clear to us. [00:03:40] Joe Krebs: Sounds like a startup kind of environment.Like everybody who has worked or seen startups, it sounds very typical. Doesn't it? [00:03:47] Betty Gratopp: Oh yeah. Everybody did everything. Yeah. [00:03:51] Joe Krebs: Yeah. And you guys had some form of a warehouse. Is it the same warehouse as it is, or did you guys relocate it over the years? Was there also like growth or. [00:04:00] Betty Gratopp: One of the major motivations to moving to a more, more scientific thinking and lean lean process was the fact that we were moving our operation every two years.So I was hired in 97. I think we moved twice in four years. And then that fifth year or so is about when we started to think about, we had to find a different way. It was too costly. Ten months of the year, our building was way too large for what we needed it to be. Two months of the year, it was way too small for what we wanted it to be.And so we had to make a commitment to stay in the building that we were, and we had to figure out how that was going to happen. At that time. My boss, one of the managing partners here was going to the University of Michigan and met a gentleman who you already mentioned, Eduardo Landers, one of the authors of the book, and they were going to U of M together, and that's how that connection was made.I don't remember actually whether we met Jeff first or Eduardo. [00:04:57] Jeffrey Liker: I don't remember either, but I did get contacted by Tom Root, and he explained that there were Kept on growing out of their quarters and they understood that lean would help you save space and use space more efficiently. And he said, you know, do you think that it might help us in our journey?And at the same time, Eduardo was my doctoral student and he was trying to define a dissertation topic. And his interest was in lean and a high variability business, but he couldn't find any that. I had implemented lean as a case study. So this came along and I said Eduardo Maybe you're not gonna be able to find a case study to study and maybe you're gonna have to create your own and become like a consultant and advisor to Zingerman's mail order.And that's what ended up happening. It was just kind of a coincidence marriage his need and their need. And I was watching the whole thing unfold. And when he first came, and I visited the warehouse and he visited, it was clear to both of us that we talk in the Toyota production system about the seven wastes.And there was seven ways every place you looked, it was just a complete disaster from our point of view. So in other words, it would be a target rich environment for improvement. You could practically, you could probably throw a lean tool any place and. something. But his, he had been, I've been teaching them that in the Toyota Way of leading, which is asking questions and guiding them step by step, taking the whole enchilada, the whole big problem and boiling it down to small pieces.And then starting with a first step and then guiding them and getting them to do the thinking and the work. And that's the approach he took, which turns out to be very consistent with Kata. We didn't know about Kata at the time, but it was very consistent with that approach. , [00:06:54] Joe Krebs: I just want to go back to that quick is I think this is an important comment you just made is the initial approach was more focused on lean rather than Kata because it was quite a while ago, like, when did this all start? [00:07:07] Jeffrey Liker: 2003 so 2003 he walked through and then he started going there like several times every week.And again, what he did was what he could have done is he could have said, here's the Toyota production system. I'm going to lecture you about standard work. I'm going to lecture about Kanban. I'm going to lecture. He didn't do any of that. He just went with them to the floor and say, what's your biggest problem.Let's start there. And then he would ask questions and, you know, example, why do you have to build up a whole, why do you have to build all your gift boxes overnight? So that they're ready when the shift starts. Why can't you build them as the customers are ordering them? And they said things like, because this is a Star Trek and we can't just beam stuff to where we want to instantly.[00:07:57] Betty Gratopp: I think my exact words were, because we're going to fail. [00:08:01] Jeffrey Liker: Yeah, exactly. So they didn't believe, you know, what he was suggesting was possible. So he would say, I understand. Is there something we can try right now? And they would say I guess, you know, and then pretty soon they were generating ideas instead of pushing back and they were trying it.And then they also found their own analogies, like in the book, the original book, lean and high variability of business. We have a case where one of the, one of Betty's colleagues said, I guess it's kind of like subway. Where they make the sandwiches to order, but they have a certain number of sandwiches in a case in a cooled case that you could pull off the shelf and maybe we could develop both kinds of situations.And so that's the way it got started. Again, there was no lectures about except for very brief introductions. There was not. Here's 15 tools. I'll teach you all the tools go apply them. It was here's a problem. Let's test some ideas and let's do it right now. And then what do we learn from this?And then most of the ideas came from the group, like Betty, not from Eduardo. Is that true? Betty. [00:09:16] Betty Gratopp: Yeah, what I remember when he was first teaching us, he was very he didn't give us a whole lot of, he didn't give us a whole set of tools at one time. The first thing we learned was pull, the second thing we learned was kanban, the third thing we learned was timed routes, because now you have kanban, so it's At the time, I had no idea that these skills or tools were layered and connected and making a whole system.Had he come at us with all of that. I mean, even just coming with us with one thing and saying, Hey, we're going to make gift boxes just in time. What do you guys think? That was enough to make our brains explode and us want to stick our feet in the mud. But once we got over that, once we tried it, once we said, yes, we'll at least give it a shot and we saw the value of that, that set the stage for the rest of our growth because we had a problem that we thought we couldn't do.We learned that we could do it, we did it, and it made us stronger for the next problem that was coming down the way. Yeah. And none of that was like, I had no idea any of that was happening as the person that was being taught and led. Yeah. It's really remarkable and . Cool.[00:10:26] Jeffrey Liker: So they were being, they were the students, but, and the, they're, they were the top management.So in a sense this was a top down approach, only teaching the top managements. On the other hand, if you only have 40 people and three of the managers are leading this, that's a large percentage of the workforce. Yeah. Getting deep exposure to the way of thinking of linear. So that went on to for about 10, 10 years till 2013 when Kata was first introduced.[00:10:57] Joe Krebs: Yeah. So that's an interesting thing. Why? So there was a transition towards Kata and I just want to. Check in with you. Like, how did, what was the trigger for that? And obviously, why did you adopt this approach? Kata most specifically, [00:11:10] Betty Gratopp: I remember, I can still remember Eduardo.I remember when he brought the book. I remember the day he brought the book and I remember it actually happening because we had been through three or four different programs iterations trials of things to get the frontline crew involved. So programs or ways of now that the managers were bought into this work and saw the value in it.And we wanted to bring more of the frontline crew along. But we weren't having much success with that. So we tried out. There was a. I forget the names of the initiatives, but there were two or three or four programs that we tried. [00:11:48] Jeffrey Liker: This was one practices one. [00:11:50] Betty Gratopp: Another one was was something Tom came up with where we were going to have extra.I forget the name of it. Sorry. [00:11:56] Jeffrey Liker: They're incentivizing with money. Yeah. You got some percentage of the savings. Yeah. [00:12:02] Betty Gratopp: So we tried a couple different things to get frontline engaged with the managers. So, and it didn't work. So the next thing that we were going to try was Kata. And I remember actually saying I was willing to try anything at that point that was different than what we'd been trying.And this stuck. So Yeah. Yeah. I can, I remember asking the crew one time to come along with us on a Toyota business practice thing. And they were like, literally, I'd rather go to the dentist. I'd rather go anywhere right now than come with you on this little project that you have laid out of when Kata came.And I don't know if it's because it's four steps and five questions, or if it was the time in the business or what the case was. But people gravitated toward it. And if I had to guess it's because it defaults to action, like we are not a team that likes to sit around in a room and strategize about what a word means.It would make us crazy with the like perfect problem statement and things like that. We're just not geared for that. We're warehouse folks who want to be out on the floor doing things. And I think that's part of it. So it looks simple. I look at the recipe, I'm looking at it on the wall right now, and I go, wow, 1,2,3,4, really cool, really simple.Then you get into it and you find out what, how challenging and engaging it is, and it's enough to keep you going, right? [00:13:30] Joe Krebs: Yeah, and that was 2012 2013, somewhere in that time frame, right? [00:13:34] Betty Gratopp: Yeah, right around 2013. [00:13:35] Jeffrey Liker: At the same time as Betty was adopting this, because Eduardo has suggested it. Yeah. I was being kind of indoctrinated by Mike Rother, and we live in the same town.He was one of my students, and I decided to change my graduate course. I taught a graduate course for about 30 years and on organizational theory. And I decided to change it to lean think lean thinking and use kata as the framework for the whole course and have the students do projects and local companies.So I approached Betty to ask if our students could do kata projects. And I was like, how do I say this to Betty, like, how do I explain Kata? She's going to think I'm from Mars. And I mentioned Kata and she said, that's what we're doing. On my list of things for the year is to introduce Kata. I think we need to talk.So then I went and visited her that same afternoon and it was again, a perfect meeting, coincidence of goals. And it was really my students. Working with her people on the floor on kata that really started driving it as well as her at some point. They asked if her student if her people who are warehouse workers, a lot of them didn't have a college degree, but she asked if they could sit in on my graduate course.And that's what happened. So I had about 15 of these Zingerman's Warehouse met people in my graduate course, and then we're having breakout discussions there with my students and we, and it was the discussions were really rich, and the students are working with them in the warehouse and they're the experts in the warehouse.So the course turned out great. And what we did is in that first semester turned out great. [00:15:31] Joe Krebs: I can only imagine how rich the conversation conversations were between, you know, people at a university, but also bringing the real life and real world touch into the conversation [00:15:41] Jeffrey Liker: And they brought food. We would have, of [00:15:44] Betty Gratopp: Of course, we brought food.I take food wherever I go. [00:15:48] Joe Krebs: That is fantastic. [00:15:49] Betty Gratopp: The relationship between the students and our frontline coaches or between the managers and the, our frontline coaches and the students is really where a really nice piece of the benefits of working kata come in. When you're first learning this thing together, everybody's new.I didn't know what I was doing and in order for me to help teach others, I had to be willing to kind of step in it a lot. Over and over again and do it wrong. That's an amazing example for anybody else who's trying to learn something. I think one of the biggest things that we've had to get over here and it still comes up.It's not something that we ever stopped working on is. Is the environment safe so that people feel like they can test, try, fail, learn, whatever word you want to put on it. This gave us something to point to that said, we want to do this and we're going to not do it right all the time. And that is to be expected.In fact, it's desirous. That's a really different mind frame than most or mindset than most people walk into a workplace with each day. It really does put us into a laboratory where, you know, we love our food. We love that we pack boxes, but it's so much more. What we do out there is so much more in the relationships that we build and the way that we learn to interact and work on challenging goals together.It's super cool. [00:17:18] Jeffrey Liker: The we needed challenges. They needed the first step is to find the challenge. So they had to find projects based on challenges. And at one point we had eight student groups in there. So they had to have eight projects, eight challenges going on simultaneously. But so they would find, and I said, it has to be something where they can make a dent on it.And run through several target conditions over a semester, you can continue working on it after that, but it can't be too big and it can't be too small so small that they have the solution immediately. So they would pick not redesign the whole warehouse problems, but more like there are errors that are made when people take things off the shelf and put them in the boxes, and you don't get exactly what you ordered.They call it mis picks. So that was a recurring project is reducing mis picks. And another one was that was in the book was that it takes too long to take bread off the shelf and bag it. And get it to the production line and just in time and sometimes we are too late and also we're going to have to scale up and we expect the busiest season Christmas season ever.And we're going to have to scale up to work to a fast, much faster tack time. So, that was in that book, so that there was significant problems. They tend to be within a process rather than across the whole warehouse. And they would have a bunch of these going on at one time, and there are problems that they haven't been able to solve easily.On their own. [00:18:51] Joe Krebs: Yeah. Betty, you have touched a little bit on that already from a Kata and cultural perspective, but I want to go a little bit deeper on that. And I was just looking at the timeframe you guys mentioned before, and it's kind of, it's interesting because like your, the original start 2003, Kata came 2012, 13.And if you want to look at this timeline right now, we're recording this in January 2024, somewhat in the middle. So you have been going like 10 years there and 10 years after. I want to talk a little bit about the culture, like the culture of the company, the teams, the crews what the culture was like that enabled Kata in 2013.Like what were the signals and the signs there that you would say Oh, these were like, you know, setting the stage for us to be successful. Because you are successful with this. And then also I would love to see from both of you obviously to what has Kata done to the culture and positively impacted the culture at a Zingerman's mail order.Can you explore a little bit both of you on this because I feel like that's an it's an important piece and from it's unique if you're thinking about a company being trying to do it, not trying to do this, being successful with this Kata approach, being in this journey for such a long period of time.[00:20:05] Jeffrey Liker: Maybe you should go back to the kind of unique people oriented culture of Zingerman's. [00:20:10] Betty Gratopp: Yes. Yes, absolutely. So, you know, when I hired on here, I hired on in Zingerman's, I'm not going to give you a year, a long time ago, because otherwise, I'm really old. That was 1997. And I worked in catering. So I hired on as a frontline employee at Zingerman's Deli, one of our sister businesses.And I was immediately taken by the culture and the people from day one, I felt valued. It was really apparent that they wanted more from me than just putting meat on trays or making nice catering trays, which is also a really great thing. But They wanted to know what I wanted to do. They wanted to know what I thought about things that we were doing at the time.I felt heard and I felt valued. There's not a lot of places when you walk in the door into a new job, I don't in my experience anyway, where I felt that valued from the get go. And I stuck around and as a result, I've been able to grow into the position that I have now. Mostly because I've been willing to learn and I've been given a really safe place and a really great learning environment to do that.So my, what I want to do is provide that for everybody else that I work with, and that's the culture I think that Jeff was describing, our unique people based culture, I think is how you said it, is that it's a cycle of everybody trying to help everybody else have a more engaging job. You know, we're all striving for that success [00:21:44] Jeffrey Liker: and they have profit sharing, very active profit sharing and they have, they call it open book management where everybody could see all the numbers and how much [00:21:52] Betty Gratopp: servant leadership[00:21:53] Jeffrey Liker: It is a very open culture.And they provide somebody who was standing behind a counter. That's who's making a sandwich for you. That person has benefits and they're making a living wage. [00:22:03] Betty Gratopp: So it is really is about respect for people and, you know, providing an opportunity for growth. [00:22:10] Joe Krebs: But if I understand that that was already prior to the arrival of Kata.[00:22:13] Betty Gratopp: Yes. So what's really fun about that story though, is even with that culture. Adopting Kata was not like one, two, three, four, go. Everybody was energized by it. Everybody wanted to learn to do it. It doesn't mean that it's easy. And that was true with even all the Lean tools as well. So Kata wasn't unique in that way.And when you're trying to learn new things, we expect that it's going to be fun. I always expect things to be fun or try to make it fun. And we want it to be easy, but that's not when we learn. And we're not advancing our knowledge as a warehouse team if we are not struggling in some fashion towards something.So there's a little bit of a disconnect between how America or whatever thinks that we want work to be like, we kind of want to come to work and check out if you're practicing kata. That's not what you're able to do. You have to be completely engaged. In your in whatever it is that you're doing. [00:23:11] Jeffrey Liker: Yeah. The Toyota Way. There's respect for people and continuous improvement and a lot of companies I've worked with get the continuous improvement part and the tools pretty quickly. But they're weak on respect for people. And Zingerman's was the opposite. It was very strong in respect for people and very weak on the tools and the concepts of continuous improvement.And we thought from the beginning that it was easier to teach the tools. Within a favorable culture, then to teach the tools and then try to change the culture. So we thought it was a very nice fit and it turned out that way. That the fit was very strong. Yeah. [00:23:54] Joe Krebs: Thanks for pointing that out, Jeff. I think that's a that's an important takeaway also to see that there was a specific culture there that actually enabled what was.About to happen with the introduction of Kata, but then once scientific thinking took over 2013 and following, how did Kata positively impact the culture? How did it drive forward? What happened to it? I would assume it did not [00:24:23] Betty Gratopp: stay the same. I was thinking of the years from 2000. We started in 2013, 2018 was our best year ever best year.When I say that, I think of in terms of capacity the quality of our work, internal mistakes, things of that nature. Those were the years that we were, we had an engaged warehouse team. That was working on Kata, we went to school every year that kept us accountable to Dr. Liker's class. We're still doing that.Actually, we were inviting people in for tours and things like that as a way of elevating our work, because when our crew on the floor sees people come and they're curious about what it is that we're doing, that's kind of new and different for a warehouse staff person to have that sort of experience.I just lost my train of thought, but I was going somewhere really good.[00:25:14] Jeffrey Liker: So you were talking about the peak. So what was different? 13 to 18. We're learning. We're driving down the stakes. We're engaged. What happened in 2019 is we took our the eye, our eye off the ball a bit because of the COVID epidemic.And we started ticking back up, but you can look at our year over year, both in our capacity and our quality. And you can see when we started Kata. Actively practicing it and then you can see, so you can see mistakes going down. You can see revenue, things like that going up and you can see when the pandemic stopped our practice and what the impact of that was on our business.Mistakes went up. We weren't paying a lot of attention. There was a lot of other things going on. So it wasn't that we weren't paying attention. It was that our attention was on other things, like keeping people safe. And that's when our scientific thinking kicked in again, only in a different fashion.So it wasn't that we had storyboards everywhere. But every day that we came to work, the three managers were very active in thinking, what is it I can do today to keep people safe? What is it today? I can do now that people are safe to increase capacity. What is our next goal? How are we going to get there?It was pretty fascinating. Yeah. One of the things that impressed me because I bet he was kind of reporting to me at the time what's happened with COVID. And one thing is that people had to think about their jobs and what they touched and using sanitizer. And. What I would see in companies is that somebody say in human resources, which is responsible for safety, would come up with policies and then they would spread the policies every place.But in Zingerman's, they had the group leaders who had a small group and each group leader had to study the job and find out where their touch points and find out how they should use sanitizer. And. They tailored the solution to the standardized work of that particular job, and it was much deeper than the kind of more superficial thinking of everybody has to use sanitizer, you know, and yeah, so I could see the thinking way, even though they weren't formally using the method or storyboard.[00:27:32] Joe Krebs: Yeah, just to that point you're making, right? So sanitizing people, keeping people safe, respecting people, right? As a cultural anchor, as well as having a scientific thinking pattern for continuous improvement. Those two things might be really good attributes for navigating through the COVID crisis.[00:27:58] Betty Gratopp: What was yes, and what was surprising to me is I remember thinking that I might have misstepped by not having a storyboard. And then I think it was Jeff that said, no, actually, it was like the thinking in action. Like you were doing it the workout. I knew that the work was outpacing the storyboard and I knew I couldn't keep it up to date.It was good. That's good. [00:28:18] Jeffrey Liker: But I have the I think often what happens if you have a company that's good to its workers and is strong in respect for people. Is they may lack discipline in executing in a sort of systematic way and also improving in a systematic way. And I think that's what lean and then Kata introduced was a lot more rigor and discipline in how they structured their daily work and how they structured their approach to improvement and reaching their goals.. [00:28:53] Betty Gratopp: It's interesting that you say that because It is true and when, you know, when coven did happen and we were, we had an amazing amount of demand and growth and we tried to, we were hiring during COVID. But so there was like, 3 years there where. I think we did what other companies may experience where the demand hides perhaps some of your missteps internal mistakes were creeping up.We weren't quite aware of that. Standard work wasn't getting used as much as it used to get used. And we weren't really aware of that. And I say all these things just, Because in 2022, when we came, when we started to come out of the pandemic and look at our situation, because of our Kata training and our scientific thinking and.Having advanced to where we had, we were able to look at those years with a different set of eyes, not to say that it didn't hurt to think that we didn't we weren't paying attention to internal mistakes and we weren't auditing our standard work and we weren't focused on growing our.Staff during that time, but we knew that it was just a break. We think of it as a, we had a critical break in 2022 and we had the observation also that we had been here before in 2013, ironically, 10 years ago, as Joe pointed out, and we knew how to do the work. So it wasn't so much it wasn't a self defeat moment.It was a moment of, oh gosh, it's kind of not great that we're here, but we knew how to do the work, and we knew the next step forward, and we knew what we needed to do. And that makes it okay. It makes it. It actually makes it inspiring. You're not inspired at first. At first, you're just okay. But by the time you walk through it and you're like, Oh yeah, we've been here before.And you start getting some traction and the crew starts coming along again. Then it starts being inspired. [00:30:49] Jeffrey Liker: Busy season. Betty was another, it was another pretty successful season, right? [00:30:54] Betty Gratopp: It was better than 2022 markedly. Yes, we had we saw good results of the work that we did last summer. So coming out of holiday 2022, we had our work cut out for us.We spent the summer or I'm sorry, 23. we spent the summer working on that. Yeah. And we had a better year because of it. And when I say by working on it, we were using our scientific thinking to reach our goals. [00:31:20] Jeffrey Liker: I think that one, yeah, one of the things that I think Betty's saying is that the Mike calls the kata starter kata.So the starter kata includes here's the four steps, your challenge, your current state, your target condition, and then experiment and put it on a storyboard. And there's a coach and the coach has a question card and every day ask these questions. And that's the, those are the kata to the tools to help you get started.But the goal of kata is actually to eliminate the kata, is to get to the point where it's just the way you naturally think. And you don't need to say, wait a second, I better write that down on a storyboard. Yeah. [00:32:03] Joe Krebs: What's the fourth question?[00:32:05] Jeffrey Liker: People like Betty had gotten to that point. Not everybody in the warehouse did, but the leaders, all the leaders really of the warehouse had gotten to that point where they're thinking scientifically not necessarily grabbing the tools.[00:32:20] Joe Krebs: That's right. Absolutely. It wouldn't be continuous improvement without continuation. The comic you guys have published is a snapshot in time. It had to end somewhere. It had to go to the printer and has to be shipped. But the journey is going to continue. I would assume that the Kata journey will continue.I don't know how much you can share. You're very open and public with tours and everything on the floor. What are some things you, I don't know if you can share of anything or Jeff by working with Zingerman's, it's just like, where's the Kata journey gonna go? Are there, what are the goals?What are you, what's on your mind if you're thinking about Kata and the next steps? There's another year ahead of us. 24. You just mentioned 20 coming out of 22 busy season. There were some changes. What's happening now for you guys in Kata,. [00:33:14] Jeffrey Liker: We started to address that at the end of the book, and I think it's pretty accurate still, but there's a concept in Toyota hoshin kanri.It's also called strategy deployment where you start top down and you say, these are our biggest challenges. And, you know, there's four big challenges and then for each of those this year, we're going to have a big challenging audacious target for the year. And then that cascades down. So everybody has a piece of that problem of that goal, and they have their own goals that are aligned with those goals at the top of the company.So far, mostly what you saw mail order was individual projects. And it wasn't guided by a strategic vision. So getting to that point where it becomes natural to have an annual plan. And to execute the plan through the year with people involved at all levels. That's one thing. I know that Zingerman's working toward.It would be a huge step forward. [00:34:23] Betty Gratopp: Yeah, that's interesting. You mentioned that we just rolled out a, I call it the big goal instead of challenge your vision. We've called it the big goal. So now we have a, it's written as a Zingerman mail order wide, and then we'll take it and it'll be more specific to the warehouse, but it has to do with capacity, quality, and cost.So it has a I could read it to you if you want. [00:34:45] Jeffrey Liker: Go ahead. [00:34:45] Betty Gratopp: It's not, it's just a challenge. The beginning of a challenge statement, it's two days old, so you have to cut us some slack too. . It says literally two days old. ZMO is a dynamic team able to meet demand defined as 9, 000 boxes in a single ship day.While maintaining an internal quality percentage of 93 percent and offering a Zing org experience. This is to be done by December 2023. So it's a one year challenge for the warehouse and mail order as a larger business. It's not perfect. It'll probably change. [00:35:26] Joe Krebs: It will probably change, [00:35:27] Betty Gratopp: It'll probably change.[00:35:28] Joe Krebs: The journey continues. [00:35:30] Betty Gratopp: Yes. But yes. [00:35:32] Joe Krebs: And I do want to thank you guys for sharing that story a little bit making it really real and building that connect from a mail order business, a floor, very actionable to everybody listening out there. Some of my guests on agile FM, we're talking about sometimes about organizational culture.This is real. This is the culture in, in action. So I want to thank you for spending that time here with me and with the listeners. Thank you, Betty. Thank you, Jeff. [00:36:01] Jeffrey Liker: Thank you. [00:36:02] Betty Gratopp: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

My guest for Episode #498 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast is Jeffrey K. Liker. Jeff is Professor Emeritus from the University of Michigan, President of Liker Lean Advisors, and author of the great books in the Toyota Way series. Episode page with video, transcript, and more He was previously a guest here in Episodes 3, 4, 37, 39, 41, 111, and 400. Today, we have a discussion centered around learning from mistakes in the context of Toyota and lean methodologies. The episode delves into the significance of recognizing, reacting to, and learning from mistakes within organizations that employ Toyota Production System (TPS) or lean strategies. Jeff shares his insights on how Toyota's culture of continuous improvement and learning from errors fundamentally drives its success. The conversation touches on Toyota's approach to leadership and problem-solving, emphasizing the structured response to mistakes at different levels of the organization, from the factory floor to top management. The episode further explores the Toyota leadership model, illustrating how leaders at various levels are expected to react when mistakes occur. Liker explains the role of the andon cord system in facilitating immediate problem identification and resolution, showcasing Toyota's commitment to quality and efficiency. He elaborates on the multi-layered leadership response to errors, detailing the responsibilities of team leaders, group leaders, and higher management in fostering a culture of learning and improvement. The discussion underscores the importance of a systemic approach to problem-solving, where the focus is on understanding and addressing the root causes of mistakes rather than attributing blame to individuals. This episode offers valuable insights into the principles of lean leadership and the critical role of acknowledging and learning from mistakes in achieving organizational excellence and innovation. Questions, Notes, and Highlights: How you'd expect Toyota leaders to react to a mistake on the factory floor? Less likely to blame an individual?  Root cause vs. controllable cause? That can be a tough lesson to teach other companies? Hardest habit to break is the blame habit? Mistakes people make in trying to help change behavior What's necessary, in another company's workplace culture, for people to feel safe pulling the andon cord or speaking up? Article about the Ford plant and andon cords in 2007 Jeff insights on that Dearborn plant The mention of psychological safety in “Toyota Culture”? What do you think of the phrase “psychological safety”? Or just the concept of it? Fujio Cho – biggest surprise was that TMMK workers were afraid to pull the andon cord New book: Engaging the Team at Zingerman's Mail Order The podcast is brought to you by Stiles Associates, the premier executive search firm specializing in the placement of Lean Transformation executives. With a track record of success spanning over 30 years, it's been the trusted partner for the manufacturing, private equity, and healthcare sectors. Learn more. This episode is also brought to you by “The Optimistic Outlook,” hosted by Barbara Humpton, CEO of Siemens USA. This podcast is a hub for those passionate about transformative concepts that shape both our workplaces and our world. Find it in your favorite podcast app. This podcast is part of the #LeanCommunicators network. 

Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.Transcript: Agile F M radio for the agile community. [00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Thank you for tuning into another episode of Agile FM. Today, I have Dr. Jeffrey Liker with me. You probably know from a, I would say, famous book with the title The Toyota Way. That is a book we want to talk about today a little bit, but there's so much, much more about Jeff, he is a professor of industrial and operations engineering at the University of Michigan.He's president of Liker Lean Advisors, and as I said, he wrote not only the Toyota Way, but he also wrote, if I did the count right, nine other books. That relate to Toyota, and there are two books that more recently were published and we'll have a chance in a different episode to talk about those.One was in June, 2023, Giving Wings to her team with Tilo Schwartz, and we have Engaging the Team at Zingerman's Mail Order and that's more like a comic if you want to see it this way, and he co authored that with Eduardo Lander and Tim Root, so that is the The list of books if I haven't missed anything, but we want to talk a little bit about the Toyota way before we do that.Welcome to the show though, Jeff. [00:01:13] Jeffrey Liker: Thank you. Joe. [00:01:16] Joe Krebs: Awesome. So the Toyota way initially released, I believe 2000, somewhere three, two, somewhere that this book we're talking about is the Toyota way. Second edition. This is also very important. We're talking about the second edition of which, which was released somewhere in the year 2021. Timeframe. [00:01:34] Jeffrey Liker: Yes. Three, about two years old. [00:01:36] Joe Krebs: Yeah. And but there is something that happened in that book that is fundamentally different in, in terms of I, I don't know all the change log and everything, but there's one fundamental change, and that is the inclusion of scientific thinking.[00:01:52] Jeffrey Liker: Right, right. A little over five years ago, Mike Rother than I jointly gave a presentation and the book hit my book Toyota Way was 20 years old. So the 20 year anniversary, and his book to Toyota Kata was, I believe, 10 years old, and. We started talking about the relationship between the two.Mike was one of my students and he had practiced lean transformation for many years and was very familiar with the Toyota way and all the concepts of Toyota and studied Toyota. And then he came up with this thing called Toyota Kata. And I had to kind of struggle to sort of figure out what it was and what he was trying to add to what we know about Toyota.And. What he really did was to reverse engineer what Toyota, we call him Toyota Sensei. Sensei is like a master teacher. So what the Toyota Sensei, who are experts on the Toyota production system, do when they work with a new client outside of Toyota, how do they teach it? And they always teach by doing.And he had a chance to see a lot of companies that these different Toyota masters worked with and their masterpieces. And. Asked the question, What do they have in common? And they're all very successful, like they almost won't even bother working on a project unless they can at least double productivity.And that just happens almost automatically. And so he knew that they got great results. But the question is, what are they doing. And in fact, each of these masters. It has a bit of an ego, and they think that they're doing it the right way and the best way, and nobody else can do it that way, the way they do, but he found an underlying pattern, which he called scientific thinking, and what he noticed is the first thing they do is they grasp, they call it grasp the situation in Toyota, they go in, they see what's going on, they talk to the top leaders, and they ask, what is it that they're trying to accomplish?What is their goal? What is their purpose? What are their goals? Why do they want to learn about lean management? What is their vision for what happened? If they were successful, then they go to the Gemba where the activity is, and it could be a factory that they work. They've worked with where they gave you injections for COVID 19.They've worked with where they made ventilators for COVID 19. They've worked with software houses where they develop software. They don't really care when they will go to the Gemba and they'll see the process and understand the current conditions. So then they'll go back, they'll grasp the situation generally, and then they'll go back and they'll say, here's where you're at.Here's the challenge for you. Yeah. And the challenge is always big, you know, like we will double productivity or we will reduce costs by 30 percent or something pretty big based on the needs of the company may have runaway late deliveries and there's paying a ton for a premium freight.And we'll say we will eliminate all shipping and then they will go back to the Gemba with a team of people from the company. And they will teach them how to see, how to understand the process as it is. And Mike calls this the current condition. And then the people in the company will basically wait and expect answers, solutions from the masters.So what do we do? And the masters will say, that's my question to you. What are you going to do? You see where you are, you see where you want to be. You see all sorts of opportunities. What do you think you should be working on first? And then based on what they say the students say, they they may ask them to go back and look some more.Or they may say, why don't we try it? Usually what these people come in the company, come up with, because it's a big challenge, they come up with a fairly big thing and they, it might be, for example, in a manufacturing facility, moving equipment around and laying it out as a cell and They said a personal last one.Can you do this? And they'll say something like, well, we have to talk to engineering and we have to make sure customers okay with this. We have to line up the maintenance people move the equipment. So, I think we really stretch it. Maybe we could do it in a week. And then the trade master will say, good, I'll be back tomorrow and that like starts the process. Now, of course they can't do it in a day what they might have to do it. They can't get all the approvals. So what the person is trying to get them to do is. You don't have to do a hundred percent in one step. Let's try something that's doable and then see what happens.And then we can learn from it. And then we can think about based on that, what our next step is. Usually what happens is the, like, for example, if they lay out a cell. It'll be a disaster. You'll move the equipment together and they'll realize that the equipment has maintenance issues and it's breaking down and everything stops because they don't have inventory anymore.And usually they can't, they barely make product and the you know, the mentors say, that's okay. Let's start working on the problems down now that we see what the problems are. You were hiding them before. Now let's start working on the problems one by one. So Mike saw that, and he saw it enough times, that he realized that what the, these Master thinkers were doing.We're not teaching tools and methods like most of the Westerners were doing with lean. They were teaching a way of thinking. Yeah. And it was actually very scientific. What's your goal? What's your current condition? Right. You know, fairly precisely with measurements and direct observation. And then let's not try to in one step get to the challenge.Let's break down the problem. And all we really need to understand is our first step. And then after that, our second step, our third step, and each of these steps were structured like experiments. They might ask them, what do you think will happen if we make the cell? And then, you know, the people will say, Oh, well, our productivity will go up or quality will go up.Let's see what happens. Yeah. It's a disaster. Yeah. So what did we learn from that? We learned that we have a lot of problems that we've been hiding. And now we can see the problems we have to solve them. So, and also they're trying to teach the value of running the experiment, learning from it, which then gives you the next step and gives you the next step.So that became the basis for what. Mike call Toyota kata. The other part of it was in the meantime, he was studying about neuroscience and cognitive psychology and how we learn and there's a lot of literature that suggests that none of us are natural scientific thinkers, right? We're driven more by biases and the desire to know things, whether we do or not.So we want a lot of certainty. And we want to be right. We're going to, in fact, fudge the data to make it appear that we're right. That's called confirmation bias, which is really strong in humans. So he realized that to change people, to start to think and act scientifically requires fundamental behavior change.That's right. Yeah. It means changing our habits. And then he asked the question, how do you change habits? And the literature on, on, on cognitive psychology and neuroscience, as well as Practical experience, for example, with coaching sports teams, it all says the same thing, which we have to practice repeatedly with feedback.And it's very common enough times it becomes a new habit. So then he said, asked, how do you, how can we practice scientific thinking? And he said, first, we need a model, which we have, which is challenge current condition, first short term target condition, then experiment, then second target condition and experiment.Then third target condition and experiment. And. Then he said, how can we teach this? And each of those steps has some associated ways of thinking and tools and think practice routines, things to practice. So he laid that out in what he calls the Toyota Kata practice guide, which is pictures and step by step instruction, like, Like a recipe book and he came up with kata, which comes from the martial arts, which mean small practice routines to teach us complex skill by breaking it down and trying the pieces one by one karate.They'll have the first kata and move the second kata until you learn the first kata. That's right. Correctly. So it's an evolution. Yeah, and usually think about, you know, taking a music lesson until you can play the very simple piece. They want. Go on to the next more complicated piece. All right. So, that led to the whole Toyota Kata, which is a model plus the practice routines.And as you practice them, you begin to think more naturally in a scientific way. [00:11:20] Joe Krebs: Right. So what's interesting is so when I started looking at Mike Rothers work right on, on Kata, and obviously I read your first edition, came in to the second edition and it just like became more and more eyeopening is these habit changes or like a habits we have and habits we want to change that's the same in the agile community, right?So we have certain habits of how we. build software or how we release software and go through transformation and all these cultural changes. So it's just like this meta skill. If you want to see it this way, that, that's that's fascinating when I came across this now, I do want to make sure that If I understand this right, this is obviously not that in 2021 Toyota started with scientific thinking.It was there before, right? It is like something that was carved out as something like it should go into the Toyota way as this core thing. So if you look at [00:12:10] Jeffrey Liker: Yeah. So that was the, we ended up giving a presentation where we said Toyota way and Toyota Kata play well together as if there were separate things.And then thinking about some more, I realized that scientific thinking really underlies. What I called in the Toyota way, the four P's of the Toyota way. The first was philosophy, which I refer to as long term systems thinking. And the second is lean processes. The process of trying to work toward one piece flow.And the third is developing people. In problem solving, which is the fourth "P" and I realized these all are connected through scientific thinking, right? And if you're not thinking scientifically, you can't do any of them. For example, you can't be a system thinker. Yeah. If you're a jelly non scientific thinking is reductionist.We assume every individual tool operates on its own. So we implement Kanban to get inventory reductions and we implement standardized work to get productivity improvements. So we're seeing isolated tools as opposed to a whole system, which is what Mike called the Toyota production system. So with that, I then started to rethink the book from the point of view of scientific thinking, being at the center.And also realizing that you can't really talk about lean as if it's a bunch of mechanistic pieces that you individually build and then they just all suddenly fit together. You have to talk about more of an evolutionary learning process. Yeah. Organization. [00:13:48] Joe Krebs: Yeah. This is interesting. So, I have never consulted for Toyota myself but I was told that the word Toyota Kata does not really, it's not a use, it use Toyota.[00:13:58] Jeffrey Liker: That was not their word. It was Mike's. [00:13:59] Joe Krebs: Exactly. Yeah. [00:14:00] Jeffrey Liker: Description from the outside of what he learned in Toyota. And then he went further and say, the Japanese sensei, they tend to be pretty mysterious Yeah. Yeah, it's light. For example, do it tomorrow. Yeah, we'll come and see. So what should I do now? What do you think you should do now?Yeah. So they tend to be mysterious, but he realized that if we want to mass distribute this to people that don't have access to those magical Japanese, we need a very explicit and simple methodology. So he developed in great detail, this methodology that in Toyota, they wouldn't think they had to use because they, what they say is that from the day you enter the company, the culture is so strong.You begin to learn Kaizen. [00:14:49] Joe Krebs: Yeah. Interesting. So, what was that one of the reasons why you decided to call that core scientific thinking, or was it more like, because it's the thinking and not the tool, it's not the pattern [00:15:00] Jeffrey Liker: thinking now it turns out. You go back to the first Japanese pamphlet. Really? It was a document for the first Japanese document that describes the Toyota production system.It says that it's based on scientific thinking. So for people in Toyota, that's not. Unusual. It's not a stretch, but they, and they think of scientific thinking more empirically than theoretically. So there's theoretical science where we just. In the abstract. And then we deduce from that things and we apply the abstract model to a problem.And then there's inductive science where we look at the phenomena and the empirical reality. And then we induce from that principles and solutions. And so in Toyota, they learned that you need very specific solutions to very specific problems. Yeah. Not general solutions to a whole general class of problems.So you need both to some degree, but they're much more focused than most on solving this problem right here, right now. Yeah. So when they see product development in software, we're developing a software program, they see it and maybe they see it as a part of product development, but they're not going to come in and say, here's your 10 step roadmap to great software.They're going to ask, what is your problem? What are you trying to accomplish? What's your goal? Let's go look at your current process. So they want to know the specifics of your situation and your goals. And they want you to learn how to think scientifically, to learn for yourself how to achieve whatever goals you have and adapt and adjust as the environment changes.[00:16:45] Joe Krebs: It is, it's fascinating also when I open up your new book, the second edition, right? There's also a thing where you design a I don't know if that's the content of your masterclass. I do know that you're teaching a lot of masterclasses but it's really the transition from a mechanistic lean, right?Organic lean. And if I go through the list of the organic lean, this is just like, it just translates for me, for somebody who has been now, you know, using, learning, applying Kata thinking more and more it just links like one, one, one to one, like two to the scientific thinking too, right? [00:17:17] Jeffrey Liker: Yeah, the other part is that whatever performance improvement program you have, Whether it's lean or agile or theory of constraints or whatever.If you look at it from what I call mechanistic point of view, then you're trying to fit square pegs in the round holes, you know, your problems, I want your problems to fit into my model. . and the other expression pill uses, if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.So, You can apply Lean, you can apply Agile, you can apply Six Sigma mechanistically, or you can apply any of those things organically. You start organically, you start with a problem. You want to engage the people who understand the Gemba the reality the best. And you want to teach them how to think differently about their process.So they developed the skills of problem solving and performance improvement, and you expect to be surprised and you expect that you won't know the answers until you start digging in and trying things, Mechanistic point of view, you, I have the solution and I'm going to sell you the solution, even though I've never been in your place.I've never seen your process. I don't know anything about. Yeah, I have the solution for you. That's kind of taking this abstract solution and assuming it's going to apply in the abstract to any similar type of problem. Staying at that theoretical level. [00:18:49] Joe Krebs: This is this could I want to just take one example.You know, I want to hear your opinion about this as you do teach these classes, right? When you are surrounded by leaders in those workshops, and you do talk about something like, yeah, I find like the right line here. It's not about like organic, Lean. It would be, it's not a project. It's a journey.Right. And I would just like to hear like what kind of responses, what do you hear when you introduce a concept like this, in terms of continuous improvement and it's a journey or it's a. From a cultural perspective, it's not like an initiative that starts here and ends in by the end of March or any arbitrary date you, somebody might pick it as an ongoing activity that obviously shifts from a leadership perspective, entirely the view, like, what did you hear when you challenge people?[00:19:39] Jeffrey Liker: When I teach the masterclass, the people that usually come have titles like director of continuous improvement, vice president operations excellence and then I'll get some people who might be the head of operations or plant manager, but and you're probably this is self selection, but they all agree when we talk about it.That the approach they have used in the past was very mechanistic and the approach that they believe, particularly after they see it in Toyota. So we do this with Toyota is they see the value of engaging all the people and Leaders acting more as coaches than as disciplinarians. And they said, that's what we need.So they, they conclude they want to move toward a more organic approach, but then they also feel a little bit concerned and nervous because I said, you know, my boss's boss expects immediate measurable results from everything we do with lean. And if you're telling me that it takes time, if you're telling me that it takes investment in developing people.And there's a gap, a time gap between the investments we make in developing people, for example, teaching them using Kata and the results that we get, we're going to have a hard time selling that. So what we ended up concluding usually is that you need both, that there is some value in the experts coming in with the tools, eliminating waste and streamlining processes and getting.Quick results on a more expansive part of the organization. Cause these people are coming in with big companies. They might have 30 or 40 or 50 manufacturing plants and the, and that there's a value in piloting within a smaller area, some of the deeper approaches to changing ways of thinking and changing culture with the successes you have in those models.You have something to sell to the senior management, come and see this and see how much better they perform. So that's usually the kind of vision they have is that they have to somehow find a balance. And I have a slide that shows like, the balance of justice and they have to find a balance between the more mechanistic, quick, short term and superficial approach.Deep and a mile wide. And that's deploying the tools and then the more deep one inch wide, a mile deep, the more deep approach to developing people one by one that you would be doing with Kata. So they have to find a balance between those things, and they have to figure that out there through their own scientific thinking journey.They have to figure it out inside their company by trying things by experimenting. So I asked him instead of leaving here with a whole bunch of solutions. that you're going to bring and implement your company, think about one big challenge that would really make a difference. Your ability to deploy lean, sell lean and define that as a challenge.Then the next, what do you do next? And they said, well, we have to solve the problem. Okay. So how do you solve the problem? Do you go back there and say, we need standardized work. We need employ work groups that we saw at Toyota. And they said, no, those are solutions. We have to understand the current condition.First. That's a great, wonderful.[00:23:09] Joe Krebs: Back to scientific thinking.. This is awesome. Your book was initially the first edition came out as we said of. Several years ago, 2002 or something like that. Why do you think at least from the, from an agile perspective there's other terms floating around. I don't want to go into pick any, right, because it's not a complete list necessarily, but why do we.I see like a lack of of these terms actually like being used on a more broader level, right? You have sold so many books and people are looking at this and saying this is wonderful material, but the implementation, it seems to be slow in the transition. Like taking companies to lean or even in, in agile transformations, is it, do you think it has something to do with the the culture, like, like, for example, using Japanese terms or something like that?[00:24:01] Jeffrey Liker: Yeah, I don't think that so much. I mean, I think there is sometimes a sense that since this is a car company and you have a stereotype picture in your mind of what a car company does. And the first thing you often think about is the assembly line, where you have cars running down the assembly line and people are attaching things to the car.And you say, well, that doesn't look anything like what I do, so therefore, it doesn't apply to me. So there's a lot of that, you know, we're different. And it could be anything. It could be that we're a manufacturing company, but we make chemical products. It's not like cars going down the line. Or it could be that we're a finance company and we don't make any physical products.Or it could be that we work with a mining company that does iron ore mining in Australia and we go and we blast and we dig and we have this big batches of stuff. And how do we get to one piece flow? So, the the problem is that you have to shift your thinking from manufacturing. Mechanical solutions.Like I'm trying to look over here to get solutions that apply in an obvious way to me. You have to shift that thinking to there are some general principles here that have been abstract abstracted that I can then bring to my operations and the people who are well trained and lean or in Kata get very comfortable going into any new environment and not knowing What the solutions are, and then digging in and trying to understand the current condition of that operations.So this idea of I think the first easy thing to do is to copy solutions like a template. But if you give me a template, I'll just superimpose on my process and I know what to do. And the harder thing is to take a more abstract concept, like I need to define a challenge., even when I take my classes and I asked them to define a challenge, they struggle, you know, the challenges we want to have a culture of continuous improvement.Well, that's way too abstract. And then if they say, well, the challenges we would want, we'd like five suggestions per employee. That's way too specific. . So finding the right level of the challenge, you know, itself challenging challenges are thinking. And then what do you look at in the current condition?If it doesn't look like a Toyota plant where you can say it takes 60 seconds for each car and we can break down the steps of attaching window wiper into a reach that takes 2 seconds and, you know, They that's their current condition analysis. Your current condition analysis may be very different if you don't have a routine repeating process.But there are ways to understand the current condition in any sort of process. And even and I remember Deming saying that if you don't think you have a process, you can't improve anything. So, that even that idea that, you know, we develop software, and every software project is different. And the process is that we understand what the customer wants, and we do it.There's no process beyond that. You know, so that Just understanding there are processes, there are habits, there are routines that you have and you need to shine a light on them and understand them, and then figure out from where you are how to start to move in the direction. of the ideal model you have in your head.That, you know, it takes a, it takes thinking. Yeah. It's thinking is tiring. [00:27:36] Joe Krebs: Well, that's my recommendation to all of the listeners out there. When I went down the journey and extracted. By doing exactly what you just said, like looking at that material and extracting information saying like, okay, this is not about Toyota.This is not about this. This is about, you know, how would this apply a map to the agile world? I'm just calling it agile Kata out because of the making a dereferencing it to the Toyota. Brand, let's say in this particular case, but the thinking is the same in terms of the scientific thinking, but surrounding it with agile principles and, you know, [00:28:12] Jeffrey Liker: last thing I'd like to say is that as I dug into agile and you and I met.Menlo Innovations, which is kind of a benchmark for Agile and software development. And I looked at what they're doing there, which Richard Sheridan we're doing. And I saw lots of similarities to the Toyota way. And I saw also a lot of similarities to Toyota Kata. And I met, worked on Zingerman's mail order with Tom Root, who is one of the owners.He was originally an IT guy. So the backbone of the mail order business is the IT system. And what I discovered, and I've talked to you and I've talked to a lot of different IT people, what I discovered is that a lot of the concepts of scientific thinking are actually quite natural for programmers, you know, see, if I think in terms, if I say we need to think in terms of systems and how the parts interact, and I go into a manufacturing environment, they might think Treat me like I'm from another planet, but the software guy will say, of course, and then the idea that you have to have a vision for what the software is going to do and understand the customer.And then you have to break that down into small elements of some sort. Call them features, and then you need to develop one feature at a time and then compile them, make sure they work together as a system, and then build the next feature and compile it. And it's a step by step learning process, breaking the big problem into small pieces and then solving each problem one by one.That idea just you know, a software program said, how do you do it any other way? So the high level model of the Kata makes perfect sense. Within the world of software development, but how to do that in a sort of structured systematic way and make it part of the culture and natural.For example at Menlo Innovations, they do unit testing. And if I say unit testing to a software program and say, of course, we know what that is. Let's go and see your program and show me the unit test you've conducted. Exactly. And this kind of, yeah, and it's got to be hopefully more and more examples like this, right?Than than the one you're naming. And so I think somebody might be listening to this. Or reading the second edition of your book of the Toyota way might be building these bridges to whatever environment they are in, right? About in, in the Toyota way I do write about Menlo innovations. And so I, so that's another thing I did in the new edition is add more service examples and software examples and examples from other places, which I didn't have at the time I wrote the original book, I was just describing.So that's in the book. And it. The thinking way is still the same and one of the things that happened with Richard and to tell you the truth is that he started to get kind of turned off by a lot of the agile examples he was seeing, because they like the lean folks were often simply using a tool.Be that agile was almost equivalent to writing things on post it notes. Yeah, and he has all culture. He calls it deliberate culture. He had to develop the whole culture. Out of pairs, paired programming and programs learning from each other and sending what he calls technical anthropologists out to the customer to really deeply understand the Gemba and how they're using software and getting the customer in week by week, every single week to test the software and give feedback to the team.So there's a whole set of practices that he had to create as the standard for the culture of Menlo. That it took an awful lot of work and it was much more than buying a lot of post it notes. [00:32:08] Joe Krebs: Yes, and maybe that was one of the reasons why he decided when we all agreed on we're going to meet in Ann Arbor and it was in September 23 we'll all come together and it was Mike it was you and several others and Richard Sheridan was the first one who says and count me in and I'm offering my office space for this because it's so important.[00:32:25] Jeffrey Liker: So yeah, well he yeah so he didn't understand Kata at first but then I understood it. And he said, yeah, that's pretty much what we do. Isn't it? Then he had to, you know, he then added some things to what they do because they weren't working in a deliberate way using the scientific approach of kind, but the overarching way that they worked and developed all their software was very much the vision, current state, right down to small pieces, solve one problem after another with very quick feedback.Correct feedback, then get it to work. One of the interesting things about Menlo innovations projects, cause they're developing customer software, none of it's off the shelf. And they, if they do a one year project in the 52nd week, the only thing they have to get right is one week of work because 51 weeks of work works perfectly.So there's basically zero, almost zero rework and they have a hundred percent customer satisfaction. The customer takes the software out of the box and they just start using it.. [00:33:37] Joe Krebs: I want to thank you Jeff for some insights on the second edition of the Toyota Way. If the second edition is It's only somewhat successful as the first edition in terms of sales of books.Thousands of books will be sold and thousands of readers out there will be exposed to scientific thinking and it's a good thing through your materials. I want to thank you for that. And also, yeah, just like, to everybody out there, if you are interested go to the show pages, I'm going to list Jeff's books and obviously ways of learning about Kata in a way to apply that in the agile context, I have some additional pointers here of where to go, what to do first and second, and obviously the Kata Bookshelf is growing thanks to you, Jeff, too, and and many more ways to learn about scientific thinking.Thank you, Jeff. [00:34:27] Jeffrey Liker: You're welcome. It's my pleasure, Joe. Take care then.

My guest for Episode #242 of the My Favorite Mistake podcast is John Rossman, a leadership and digital transformation expert. John is the author of three books on leadership and business innovation including the best seller The Amazon Way. He is an early Amazon executive who played a key role in launching the Amazon marketplace business in 2002.  His new book will be released on February 24, 2024: Big Bet Leadership: Your Playbook for Winning in the Hyper-Digital Era. You can pre-order it now. Episode page with video, transcript, and more Today, he is a leading keynote speaker on leadership for innovation, transformation and artificial intelligence and has given over 200 keynotes to worldwide audiences. John is an operator and builder whose love is diving into business problems and customer needs designing innovative solutions and business models, and creating durable enterprise value. He served as senior innovation advisor at T-Mobile and senior technology advisor to the Gates Foundation. John was a managing director at Alvarez and Marsal for twelve years leading several business turn-around situations, serving as interim CIO at a restructuring client, and leading the development of several large clients, including Walmart, Nordstrom, and Microsoft.  John is the founder of Rossman Partners, a leadership development, coaching and advisor solutions company. He is often joined by his Frenchie, Bossman. In this episode, we delve into the birth of Amazon's Marketplace, a venture that pushed limits and disrupted the e-commerce landscape. Rossman's role in pioneering this platform was marked by strategic risk-taking and innovation, lessons that emerging business leaders can take to heart. From edging out competition with unified checkouts to shaking the norm with new product categories, Rossman's story is a testament to the power of creativity and resilience. Understand his approach to the successful expansion of the Marketplace and discover how to nurture “small and tender” ideas into successful ventures. Questions and Topics: Amazon Marketplace business - the 3rd iteration of a 3rd party selling platform Were you confident this was NOT a mistake, this new approach? What was different? What was the testing process? Auctions was an eBay competitor? What was the approach for evaluating the experiment? How long to give it? Not working or not working yet? Is the mistake thinking that a company like Amazon always gets it right the first time and that others need to do the same? Amazon is influential... Mistakes people make in trying to copy them too directly?  Differences between Toyota Way & Amazon Way structure? What does “leaders are right - a lot” mean? Not “always”? 80% level What's a hyper-digital era? Subscribe, Follow, Support, Rate, and Review! Please follow, rate, and review via Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, or your favorite app -- that helps others find this content, and you'll be sure to get future episodes as they are released weekly. You can also financially support the show through Spotify. You can now sign up to get new episodes via email, to make sure you don't miss an episode. This podcast is part of the Lean Communicators network.

Hassan Jameel is a prominent Saudi businessman. He is the Deputy President and Vice Chairman at Abdul Latif Jameel, an internationally diversified business founded by his grandfather in 1945. A substantial part of his life has been immersed in Japan, where he grew up, and worked with Toyota. Proficient in Japanese, he has a deep affinity for the culture and feels entirely at home there. He has embraced the Japanese principle of “kaizen,” meaning continuous improvement, in both his business ventures and personal well-being. He is an aficionado of automobiles.

Tilo Schwarz is a leadership coach, former plant manager and co-founder of the Campus for Leaders at the University of Applied Science Ansbach. He helps managers to successfully lead change and empower their teams for improvement, adaptiveness, and superior results. During his time as a plant manager at a renowned German power-tool manufacturer, he started practicing Toyota Kata with his management team as part of Mike Rother's groundbreaking research in 2006. By doing so, Tilo and his team established continuous improvement as a daily routine throughout all processes and areas of the plant. That led to winning the A. T. Kearny operational excellence competition "Factory of the Year" and a WHU/INSEAD Industrial Excellence Award. Tilo is the author of several books on coaching and Toyota Kata.Jeffrey K. Liker is Professor Emeritus, Industrial and Operations Engineering at The University of Michigan and President of Liker Lean Advisors, LLC. He is the author of the best-selling book, The Toyota Way, Second Edition, and has coauthored nine other books about Toyota including The Toyota Way to Service Excellence and The Toyota Way to Lean Leadership. His graphic novel with Eduardo Lander and Tom Root tells the story of lean transformation at a mail-order company: Lean in a High-Variability Business. A more compact graphic novel, Engaging the Team at Zingerman's Mail Order, illustrates how Kata unleashed the creativity of their team. His articles and books have won thirteen Shingo Prizes for Research Excellence. He was inducted into the Association of Manufacturing Excellence Hall of Fame and the Shingo Academy.Link to claim CME credit: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3DXCFW3CME credit is available for up to 3 years after the stated release dateContact CEOD@bmhcc.org if you have any questions about claiming credit.

In this episode of the WLEI Podcast, we talk with Fabrice Bernhard and Catherine Chabiron. Fabrice is the co-founder of Theodo, a fast-growing software company, and Catherine is the author of the new book, Learning to Scale at Theodo: Growing a Fast and Resilient Company. Fabrice and Catherine share how Theodo has seamlessly integrated lean thinking into its management system enabling it to grow rapidly while maintaining a customer-first mindset and ship quality software. During the conversation, we dive into: Lean vs. Agile: How Theodo found lean thinking and how it complements agile, while challenging traditional perspectives in the software industry. Quality vs. Speed: Navigating the delicate balance between producing high-quality code and meeting the demands for rapid delivery. Customer Focus: How lean has enhanced Theodo's customer-centric approach, making it a hallmark of their operations. Learning Organizations: The role of continuous learning in building resilient teams that not only solve technical problems but contribute to organizational growth. People Development: How Theodo leverages problem-solving at the gemba to foster a culture of continuous improvement and employee development. Special note: During the conversation, we mention the book The Toyota Way of Dantotsu Radical Quality Improvement, which Theodo has been using to transform its approach to improving quality.

In this episode, I'm sharing a principle that transformed my business, Escape Climbing, from $300,000 to $3 million in just a few years. This concept applies not only to manufacturing but to any business and even your personal life.I'm talking about identifying the eight types of waste, a concept borrowed from the Toyota Way and Lean Methodology. These forms of waste lurk in everything we do, from making products to running daily operations.The key is to identify these types of waste in your processes and start eliminating them. By doing so, you'll streamline your operations, boost efficiency, and watch your business grow.So, take these principles and run with them. It's a sure path to success. LEAVE A REVIEW if you liked this episode!! Let's Connect On Social Media! youtube.com/anthonyvicino twitter.com/anthonyvicino instagram.com/theanthonyvicino https://anthonyvicino.com Join an exclusive community of peak performers at Beyond the Apex University learning how to build a business, invest in real estate, and develop hyperfocus. www.beyondtheapex.com Learn More About Investing With Anthony Invictus Capital: www.invictusmultifamily.com Multifamily Investing Made Simple Podcast Passive Investing Made Simple Book: www.thepassiveinvestingbook.com

In this episode, Dr. Jeff Liker and I dive into the fascinating world of Kata coaching and explore the key concepts from his novel on the subject What You'll Learn: 1. What led you to write a novel with Tilo Schwarz? 2. For the listeners that do not know, what is kata coaching? 3. What did Tilo add about coaching to Mike Rother's 5 question card? 4. Why a novel about kata coaching? I understand that Tilo already published a book about the coaching microskills. 5. What would you like to hear from readers that would really excite you? About the Guest:  Jeffrey K. Liker is Professor Emeritus, Industrial and Operations Engineering at The University of Michigan and President of Liker Lean Advisors, LLC. He is author of the best-selling book, The Toyota Way, Second Edition, and has coauthored nine other books about Toyota including The Toyota Way to Service Excellence, and The Toyota Way to Lean Leadership. His graphic novel with Eduardo Lander and Tom Root tells the story of lean transformation at a mail-order company: Lean in a High-Variability Business. His articles and books have won thirteen Shingo Prizes for Research Excellence. He was inducted into the Association of Manufacturing Excellence Hall of Fame and the Shingo Academy. Links: Click here for more information on "Giving Wings to Her Team: A Novel About Learning to Coach the Toyota Kata Way" ⁠Click here to connect with Jeff on LinkedIn⁠ ⁠Click here for The Lean Solutions Summit  --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/leansolutions/support

You may have heard of the Toyota Way or Kaizen. It's a manufacturing approach that aims to maximize efficiency and reduce waste. Kaizen means 'continuous improvement' in Japanese. So how can you apply Kaizen to marketing data management? We chat with Zeke Camusio, CEO of Data Speaks, to figure it out.

Learn more and register Mark Graban, from KaiNexus, and Karyn Ross discuss her upcoming webinar. July 11 from 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm ET Presented by Karyn Ross, Founder of The New School for Kind Leaders People often think that lean is a kind way to work. But lean is a thing – and things aren't kind or unkind – people are! In order for leaders to be able to develop people to work in lean ways, create, and innovate, they need to lead with kindness. In this webinar, you'll learn about the Three Key Kind Leader Practices of Thinking, Speaking, and Acting Kindly, from Karyn Ross's latest book "The Kind Leader: A Practical Guide to Eliminating Fear, Creating Trust and Leading with Kindness," and how and why they are the key to lean leadership. About the Presenter: Karyn Ross Karyn is on a mission to Help People Create a Better, Kinder World. An artist, internationally acclaimed speaker, award-winning author, consultant, coach and practitioner, Karyn travels the globe teaching people her unique system of combining creativity, continuous improvement and kindness to make a better world. As well as being the owner of KRC (Karyn Ross Consulting) Karyn is one of the Founding Mothers of Women in Lean – Our Table, a global group of more than seven hundred and fifty women lean practitioners. Karyn is also Founder and President of the Love and Kindness Project Foundation, a registered public charity and The New School for Kind Leaders. She has created both of these initiatives to help people around the world think, speak, act and lead more kindly. Karyn's sixth book, The Kind Leader: A Practical Guide to Eliminating Fear, Creating Trust and Leading with Kindness is available for preorder. Karyn's five other books are: How to Coach for Creativity and Service Excellence: A Lean Coaching Workbook, the Shingo-award winning The Toyota Way to Service Excellence: Lean Transformation in Service Organizations, I'll Keep You Posted: 102 of My Reflections to Help You Start – and Deepen – Your Own Active Reflection Process, Think Kindly – Speak Kindly – Act Kindly: 366 Easy and Free Ideas You Can Use to Create a Kinder World…Starting Today, and Big Karma and Little Kosmo Help Each Other. Proceeds from books fund The Love and Kindness Project Foundation. When not traveling, Karyn spends time designing and sewing her own clothes! Follow Karyn on LinkedIn for a daily inspirational post about creativity, kindness and/or continuous improvement.

What is the greatest show on manufacturing Earth? IMTS. Every two years, the International Manufacturing Technology Show (IMTS) draws manufacturers from around the world to Chicago for six days. IMTS not only makes a huge impact on the economy in Chicago but also on the manufacturing industry. Peter Eelman—the Chief Experience Officer at AMT— joins us in this episode of MakingChips to share just what that impact is. Because if you're not MakingChips, you're not making money. BAM! – Nick Segments [0:13] The Industrial Digital Marketing Services at Thomas™ [2:45] What our new show structure is going to look like [4:35] Manufacturing leadership spotlight: Karyn Ross [6:22] Today's guest: Peter Eelman at AMT [9:28] What Peter's been doing since IMTS [13:16] The impact IMTS has on Chicago [22:41] The economic impact on the manufacturing industry [27:02] Does the health of the trade show industry matter? [30:14] What impacted the attendance numbers in 2022? [35:17] The Lean Setup Guide from ProShop  [35:55] How can you engage with IMTS and each other? Resources mentioned on this episode The Toyota Way to Service Excellence by Karyn Ross Karyn Ross on LinkedIn Michelle Edmonson on LinkedIn Peter Eelman on LinkedIn IMTS+ SPS Formnext Formnext Forum Mesago Messe Frankfurt GmbH The Lean Setup Guide from ProShop Connect With MakingChips www.MakingChips.com On Facebook On LinkedIn On Instagram On Twitter On YouTube

It would seem that hybrid king Toyota has pushed back against battery electric vehicles. But it does make a BEV- the bZ4X. With a range of up to 252 miles, it's available in front and all-wheel drive. How does it drive? Tom Voelk drives a front-wheel drive Limited model and finds it to be a solid performer with an excellent driving dynamic. Charging speed and curve? That might be the deal breaker for those that travel long distances.

New book, available now! For links, video, transcript, and more visit the episode page  Joining us for Episode #469 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast are Matt May and Pablo Dominguez, the authors of the new book What a Unicorn Knows: How Leading Entrepreneurs Use Lean Principles to Drive Sustainable Growth. It's available now! Matt has been before, in episodes 67 and 103… and he was my guest for episode 39 of My Favorite Mistake. Pablo Dominguez is an Operating Partner at Insight Partners, a leading global venture capital and private equity firm investing in high-growth technology and software ScaleUp companies that drive transformative change in their industries. Pablo has spent his entire career as a go-to-market and sales-focused operator, working in consulting, public companies, startups, and, most recently, ScaleUps. The application of lean principles has figured centrally in driving sustainable growth in each of these ventures. Matthew E. May leads the Lean ScaleUp program at Insight Partners, with Pablo.  His mastery of lean principles and methodologies comes from spending nearly a decade inside the Toyota organization, where he played an integral part in launching the University of Toyota, a corporate university dedicated to teaching, preserving, and expanding the Toyota Way. Previously the author of many great books, including The Elegant Solution and, most recently, Winning the Brain Game. In this episode, we discuss their new book and how they are both influenced by Toyota and broader Lean thinking, including the Lean Startup methodology — and we discuss the questions and topics listed below: Questions, Notes, and highlights: Pablo, since this is your first time here, it would be great to hear your “Lean origin story” Helping people cope with the discovery of waste and opportunities to improve? Feeling bad about it before moving forward? Congratulations on the release of the book… in startup circles, what's meant by the term “Unicorn”? What's a ScaleUp compared to a startup? What is product-market fit? An example? Risk of trying to scale prematurely? One of the core themes in your model is “Constant experimentation”  Investors – do they want to hear about “constant experimentation”? Do they want certainty? How to prevent Big Company Syndrome (a.k.a., Big Company Disease)? What is meant by “Lean ScaleUp”? How do you react when you hear this aversion to “process” in agile or startup circles, as if process means being inflexible? What's a “lean kaizen sprint”? Applying this to the sales process? Lessons Toyota about “building team spirit”? Building teamwork across silos? The podcast is sponsored by Stiles Associates, now in its 30th year of business. They are the go-to Lean recruiting firm serving the manufacturing, private equity, and healthcare industries. Learn more. This podcast is part of the #LeanCommunicators network. 

I always admire and love having a successful brand in the show to inspire and get inspired. The sky's the limit when you put your heart into something. The success story of Colsen Fire Pits selling and scaling on both Amazon and Shopify platform. From the beginning of the brand to staying up to date, Armando Colimodo, the owner of Colsen Fire Pits shares his secrets to success. Tune in and be inspired!   In This Episode: [00:50] Welcoming Armando Colimodio on the show. [01:24] Colsen Fire Pit background. [04:50] Amazon or Shopify? [06:54] The biggest challenges. [08:05] Buy with Prime. [09:50] Biggest lever on Amazon and Shopify. [12:00] Competition. [14:05] Where should you start, Amazon or Shopify? [15:00] Starting budget. [16:30] Retail [18:45] Staying up to date.   Guest Links and References: Website: https://colsenfirepits.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/armandocolimodio/   Book References: The Quest for Global Dominance by Anil K. Gupta et al   The Toyota Way by Jeffrey Liker   Sell Like Crazy by Subri Suby   Links and References: Wizards of Amazon: https://www.wizardsofecom.com/ Wizards of Amazon Courses: https://wizardsofamazon.mykajabi.com/a/27566/x6Kwkz6p Wizards of Amazon Meetup: https://www.meetup.com/South-Florida-FBA/ Wizards of Amazon on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WizardsofAmazon/ Wizards of Amazon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wizardsofecom/  

Want to become more heart-centered? We invite you to join us on Deb's Dailies (daily blog and newsletter), a daily reflection on living and loving life as a heart-centered leader. Karyn Ross is an internationally acclaimed consultant, coach, and lean practitioner. She has taught organizations of all sizes, in sectors as diverse as insurance, HR, transportation, and retail how to use creativity combined with Toyota Way principles, practices, and tools. This powerful combination enables organizations to create better, more effective and efficient ways to work and the peak services that each of their customers wants, now and for the future. While many other Lean consultants focus on implementing tools, Karyn teaches your team how to use Practical Creativity™ to continuously strive towards service excellence. By developing each person's capability through Coached Practice, she focuses on the means: the ‘how', and not just the ‘ends' or the results, because “how we get there is as important as where we are going”. She is also a practicing artist with an MFA in Sculpture and author of How to Coach for Creativity and Service Excellence and coauthor of The Toyota Way to Service Excellence. Connect with Karyn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/krclean4service/ https://karynrossconsulting.com/ https://kindleadership.org/

In this podcast we cover: How Takt applies to the 14 principles of the Toyota Way.   If you like the Elevate Construction podcast, please subscribe for free and you'll never miss an episode.  And if you really like the Elevate Construction podcast, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (Maybe even two 

Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations, where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is "Augmented Lean Prelaunch." Our guest is Natan Linder (https://www.linkedin.com/in/linder/), in conversation with host, Trond Arne Undheim. In this conversation, we talk about the background of our co-authored book, Augmented Lean (https://www.amazon.com/Augmented-Lean-Human-Centric-Framework-Operations/dp/1119906008), a human-centric framework for managing frontline operations, why we wrote it, what the process has been like, the essence of the Augmented Lean framework, and the main lessons of this book for C-level executives across industry. If you like this show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/). If you like this episode, you might also like Episode 96 on The People Side of Lean with Professor Jeff Liker (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/96). Augmented is a podcast for industry leaders, process engineers, and shop floor operators, hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim (https://trondundheim.com/) and presented by Tulip (https://tulip.co/). Follow the podcast on Twitter (https://twitter.com/AugmentedPod) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/75424477/). Trond's Takeaway: Industrial revolutions are rarely chronicled as they are happening, but this industrial revolution will be. There is an ongoing shift in the way technology and workforce combine to produce industrial change, and it is happening now. We are lucky to be situated in the middle of it. And I personally feel fortunate that I was brought along for the ride. It has been a life-changing experience to realize the power and impact of living through a shifting logic of manufacturing and, perhaps more importantly, to realize that as excited as we can be about automation, an augmented workforce represents the best combination of the most important technology we have which is human workers themselves with the second best machines that humans create. The fact that making humans and machines work together is no trivial task has been pointed out before but documenting what happens when it does go well in the biggest industrial companies on the planet feels like a story that deserves to be told. Transcript: TROND: Welcome to another episode of the Augmented Podcast. Augmented brings industrial conversations that matter, serving up the most relevant conversations on industrial tech. Our vision is a world where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is Augmented Lean Prelaunch. Our guest is Natan Linder, in conversation with myself, Trond Arne Undheim. In this conversation, we talk about the background of our co-authored book, Augmented Lean, a human-centric framework for managing frontline operations, why we wrote it, what the process has been like, the essence of the Augmented Lean framework, and the main lessons of this book for C-level executives across industry. Augmented is a podcast for industrial leaders, for process engineers, and for shop floor operators hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim and presented by Tulip. Natan, good to have you in the studio. How are you today? NATAN: I'm great. How are you? It's been a minute. TROND: It's been a little minute for us. It's crazy with book launches. It takes a little out of you. And you are running a company in addition to that, so you had some other things on your plate too. NATAN: Yep, running a company and having a book coming is an, I don't know if an artifact, but definitely, company is a lot about changing the status quo. And the book tries to capture a movement. So I think they go along nicely. TROND: Yeah, Natan. And I wanted to bring us in a little bit and converse about why this book was written. Certainly, that's not my benefit. You brought it up to me. But what were we thinking about when writing this book? So I want to bring it back to way before I came into the picture with the book because it was your idea to write a book. What was on your mind? What were the main reasons that you thought I really want to write a book? NATAN: When I was coming up as an engineer...and my background, I'm not a pure manufacturing production type engineer, but I've been around it my entire career just because of the type of products that I've been involved with whether it's mobile phones, or robots of all sorts, 3D printers. So you get to spend a lot of time in these operational environments, shop floors, machine shops, and the like. And when we started working on Tulip, it was pretty clear pretty quickly that there's a moment that is emerging in operations that no one has captured the story. And this is back even; I don't know, maybe five or six years ago. We are maybe one or two years old, and I'm already starting to think about this post-lean, or classical lean movement that I'm sure is happening. That really is the genesis of the book in the early, early days. And fast forward to when we started talking, I think we got Tulip off the ground. But really, that was a platform to meet all those different people who helped operations transform digitally, whether it's all sorts of consultants, or academics who are researching operations, or business leaders, you know, tons of factory managers and the engineers that work with them, and the executive, so a whole bunch of people. And they're all basically talking about the same thing and the deficiencies in lean, the complexity of technology, and how they're trying to change, and it is so difficult. So I think that's a good description of the landscape before diving in to try and capture what the book attempts to capture. TROND: Yeah, Natan, I remember some of our early discussions. And we were dancing around various concepts because clearly, lean is a very broad perspective in industrial manufacturing focused on reducing waste and many other things. It's a broad concept that people put a lot of different things into. But I remember as you and I were thinking about how to describe this new phenomenon that we do describe in the book, we were thinking a little bit that a lot of these new influences come from the digital sphere. So there's also this term agile. There are some people who say, well, you know, let's just replace lean because it's an outdated paradigm. And I remember you were quite adamantly arguing that that's not the case. And this goes a little bit to the message in our book. We are in no way really saying that lean isn't relevant anymore. NATAN: On the contrary. TROND: Tell me a little bit about that. NATAN: A really simple way I think to frame it is that whether you're practicing lean formally or some variant of it, of lean, or Six Sigma, or some program that formalizes continuous improvement in your operation...and we're talking about frontline operations. We're talking about factories, and labs, and warehouses, and places like that. You are practicing lean because this is how the world..., even if you're not doing it formally; otherwise, you're not competitive. Even if you're in a bank or a hospital, you might be practicing lean. And that's where agile comes to the picture, and it was adopted widely by operations practice in general and pushed into areas that are not pure manufacturing. So, in a way, lean is a reality. Some organizations are more formal about it, some are less, but definitely, they're doing it. Here's the issue, and this is the main thesis of the book. When lean came about...and we know the catalyzing text. We know the teaching of Taiichi Ohno. We know about The Goal. We know about The Machine That Changed the World. And those are seminal texts that everybody reads. And we know about Juran and lots of great thinkers who thought about operations as a data-driven game, some from the school of thought of quality, some from pure operation research, some from how do you put emphasis on classic just-in-time, Kanban, Kaizen, all those continuous improvement things. But at the end of the day, all of that thinking, which still holds true, was not done when digital was top of mind, where data is everywhere, where people need to live in such data ecology. It was done, so to speak, in analog times. And it doesn't mean that the principles are wrong, but it doesn't mean they don't need to get augmented. And this is maybe the first time where this idea of augmentation, which, to me, augmentation is always about...I always think about augmentation from a people's perspective or an org perspective. It's just a collective of people. That's where it starts, and that's where we had something to say. So that's one aspect to think about. The second big one is actually very simple. It's kind of like; we heard ten years of industry 4.0 is going to change everything, and all we got is this lousy OEE graph. And that's kind of like a little tongue-in-cheek on we were promised flying cars, but we only got 140 characters. I mean, come on, stop talking about industry 4.0. It's like, who cares? If the tools and digital techniques and what have you is not adopted by the people actually doing the work, that then collectively, one engineer, another engineer, another operator, a team lead, the quality lead, and so on come together to transform their org, if that's not happening, then that's not sustainable transformation, and it's not very relevant. Again, augmentation. TROND: Right. And I think, Natan, that's where maybe some people are surprised when they get into this book. Because it would be almost tempting to dismiss us as traditionalists in the sense that we are not really going whole hog into describing digital as in and of itself, the core of this principle. So there is a little bit of a critique of agile as an idea that agile or using that as a kind of a description for all digital or digital, right? That digital doesn't change everything. And I guess I wanted to reflect a little bit on that aspect because I know that you, as a business leader now hiring a lot of people, we are spending a lot of energy bringing these two perspectives together, and it's not very obvious. You can't just take a digital person who is completely digital native and say, "Welcome to the factory; just do what you do. And because you do things better than everyone else, we are now going to adapt these factories." How do you think about that? In factories, you could conceive it as the IT versus OT, so operational technologists versus information technologists and the various infrastructures that are quite different when those two things come into play. NATAN: So my frame of reference is the most value...and it's a very engineery frame of reference because I'm an engineer at the end of the day. It's like, the most value gets unleashed when people truly change how they work and adopt a tool, and that's true for operations and manufacturing. But, by the way, it's also true for the greater business perspective. And a lot of people, when I talk to them about Augmented Lean, really take us to the realms of what is the future of work, and I think it's very timely. We're kind of in a post-COVID reality. Working remote has changed many things, working with data. Big ideas like citizen development, you hear them all over the place. And use of advanced platforms like the no-code/low-code that allow people to create software without being software engineers become a reality. So there's a much broader thing here. But if I focus for a second on what you're asking, the way I see it is when people truly change how they work, it means that they believe, and that belief translates into action, that the tool that they're using is the best way to do something. And they become dependent and empowered by it at the same time because they're not willing to go back to a state where they're not thinking and working with data, or back to the clipboard, or back to being dependent on an IT department or a service provider to give them some technical solution. People have become more self-sufficient. And it turns out that if you do that, and sometimes people would refer to that as you let people hack or go nuts in the factory floor or in whatever operational environment, that could be a concern to people, and that's a fair observation for sure. And that's where when you look at the book, when we were kind of constructing the framework we call Leader HG where HG stands for hack and govern... We are used to Silicon Valley startups being like, oh yeah, you all just need to hack. And that's a very glorious thing, and everybody understands that. And they want them to hack when they are a 50,000-person software company. They're still hacking, but they're doing it in a much more structured way, in a much more measured way. So even in hacking, there's governance. And in operational environment, governance is equally important, if not more, because you're making real things. That is something we've observed very empirically. Talking to a lot of people seeing what they do, it's like, yeah, we want the best ideas from people. How do we get it? What do we do? We tried this approach, that approach. And I think we were sometimes very lucky to be observers to this phenomena and just captured it. TROND: Yeah. And I wanted to speak to that a little bit. I want to thank you, actually, for bringing me into this project because you and I met at MIT but from different vantage points. I was working at Startup Exchange working with a bunch of very, very excellent MIT startups in all different domains, and you were an entrepreneur of several companies. But my background is more on the science and technology studies but also a management perspective on this. But I remember one of the things you said early on to me was, "I want to bring you in on this project, but don't just be one of those that stays at the surface of this and just has like a management perspective and writes future of work perspectives but from like a bird's eye view. Come in here and really learn and go into the trenches." And I want to thank you for that because you're right about many things. This one you were very right about. And this clearly, for me, became a true research project in that I have spent two years on this project, a lot of them in venues and factory floors, and discussing with people really at the ground level. And for me, it was really a foundational experience. I've read about many things, but my understanding of manufacturing, frankly, was lacking. And you could have told me as much, but I actually, frankly, didn't realize how little I knew about all of the factors that go into manufacturing. I had completely underestimated the field. What do you say to that? NATAN: It's interesting because I feel like the last two years, everything I think I know [laughs], then I found out that I don't know enough. It just kind of motivates you to do more work to figure out things because it's such a broad field, and it gets very, very specific. Just listening to your reflection on the past couple of years, the reality is that there is a gap in the popular understanding of what operations and manufacturing is all about. People think that stuff comes from some amorphous factory or machine that just makes the things. And they usually don't see, you know, we have those saying, like, you don't want to see how the sausage is made, which is obviously very graphic. But you also don't see how the car is made unless you're a nerd of those things and watch those shows like how things are made, but most people just don't. And they don't appreciate the complexity and what goes into it and how much technology and how much operation process it consumes. And as a society and as a set of collective economies and supply chains, it is so paramount to what's actually happening. Just take things like sustainability or what happens with our planet. If we don't learn to manufacture things better and more efficiently with less people because we don't have enough people in operations, for example, our economies will start to crumble. And if we don't do it in a way that is not just sustainability from the perspective of saving the planet, also that, but if we don't become more efficient in our supply chains, then businesses will crumble because they can't supply their customers with the product that they need. And this thing is never-ending because products have life cycles. Factories have life cycles. And the human species, that's what we do; we take technology, and then we turn it into products, and we mass produce it. That's part of how we survive. What we need is we increase awareness to this. And I think The Machine That Changed the World and Toyota Production System unveiled those concepts that you need to eliminate waste to build better organizations, to build a better product, to have happier customers; there's something really fundamental there that did not change. The only thing that changed is that now we're doing it in a reality where the technology is out there; data is out there. And to wield it is difficult, and there is no escape from putting the people who do the work in the center. And to me, if we are capable of doing that, the impact of this is recharging or rebooting lean in the classic sense for the next three decades. And that's my personal hope for this book and the message we're hoping to bring in. We would love people to join that call and fly that flag. TROND: Yeah. I wanted to take us now, Natan, to this discussion. A lot of people are saying, "Oh, you got to market manufacturing better, and then people will come to this area because there are interesting things to do there." But more broadly, if we think about our book and why people should read that, my first reflection is building on what I said earlier that I didn't realize not just the complexity of manufacturing but how interesting it was. My take after two years of studying this is actually that there's no need to market it better because it is so interesting and fundamental for the economy that the marketing job, I think, essentially has already been done. And it's just there's a lag in the system for new employees, new talent. And society overall realizes how fundamentally it is shifting and reconfiguring our society. But I guess I want to ask you more. What is the reason a C-level executive, whether they work in manufacturing, in some industrial company, or really, if they work in any company that is interested in what technology and manufacturing is doing to their business reality...how they can implement some of those ideas in their business. What would you say to them? I mean, is our book relevant to a business leader in any Fortune 500? Or would you say that our messages are kind of confined to an industrial setting? NATAN: I think it applies to all of them. And the reason is that these types of roles that you're describing, folks will best be served if they learn from other people's experience. And what we tried to do in the book is to bring almost an unfiltered version of the stories of their peers across various industries, from medical devices, to pharmaceuticals, to classic discrete manufacturing, all sorts of industries. And they're all struggling with the same kind of stuff. And so those stories are meaningful and can contextualize the thinking of what those C-levels are actually trying to cope with. What they're really trying to do, everybody, I'd say, is why do people think about and talk about those big terms of digital transformation? It's really because they want to make sure their companies don't stay behind or, in other words, stay competitive. This stuff is an imperative for organizations that have real operations that span digital and physical, and I don't know many that don't. Of course, there are some service industries that don't have anything but still have operations. You can't avoid handling the subject and what it entails. It entails training your people differently. It entails defining technology stacks. It entails connecting using various technologies, protocols, what have you, across organizations and finding value in this data so you can make good decisions on how you run your billing cycles, or how you order your stock to build, or how you ship your end product and everything in between. And I don't think that the book is groundbreaking in the sense that we're the first people who ever thought about it. But I think if we've done anything, is we've observed long and hard. And we've listened very carefully to what people are telling us that they did, and they struggled. And it's a timely book. And maybe in a decade, it's a classic, and, wow, these are good stories. And it's like reading about the first people booting up mainframes or PCs. And if that happens, I'm actually pretty happy. But you know why I would be happy? Trond, let me tell you something, it's because technology, like, the human needs change much slower than how technology evolves and gets deployed, but still, good technological-driven transformation take a long time. TROND: That's exactly what I was going to say is that the future is an interesting concept because what's tomorrow to some people is today for others. So you say we're not writing about something that's so new or unique but to industry overall and to some manufacturers, what we're writing about is the future because they haven't implemented it yet. To some of Tulip customers, to some of the great companies that we have researched in the book, whether they be J&J, Stanley Black & Decker, DMG MORI, a lot of other companies in medical device side, and also smaller and medium-sized companies, even some startups that are implementing some the Augmented Lean principles, to them, this is of course not the future. And maybe, you know, we're not saying that leaders who try to implement Augmented Lean need to change everything around; we're saying common sense things. It's just that; clearly, all of industry is not human-centric, right? There are parts of industry where you adjust 80% to your machines, and you make economic decisions purely based on the infrastructure efficiency improvements you're trying to make. I guess what we're saying is the innovation argument; people are the most innovative, and you have to restructure around your workforce, even if you are making machine and robot investments. NATAN: Yeah, automation would always require strong reasons to automate that, you know, some of them are complexity, safety risk, things like that or throughput to like how much product do you need and that kind of stuff. But even if you have the best automation, you typically have people around it, and nothing is just only machine-driven or only human-driven. The reality is that most stuff gets made through a combination of several manufacturing technologies working in unison with people at the beginning, middle-end doing things from the planning, to running automation setups and machinery, to taking the output, doing assembly, doing tests, audits and checks, and packaging, and logistics, and at the end of the day, human-intensive type of operation in most of the areas we roam, at least. And as such, to think that in this day and age you don't focus on people is to me nuts when all those people carry a supercomputer called a smartphone in their hand and have uber-connected homes with a million CPUs streaming all this data, and we call that media, whatever. And they're so accustomed to interfacing to their world and their businesses through that. And you and I are Gen Xers, and let's just think about the generation that comes after us and after us. These are digital natives par excellence. They expect as much, and organizations that don't do that, whether they choose the Augmented Lean approach or any other approach, they're just not going to have employees. That's a little bit of a problem. TROND: Yeah. But it's important what you're saying in one respect which is there are many reasons to dismiss a book, a management book, a technology book. And one could be like; all these people are just that. And one, I guess, gut reaction when people look at the title or perhaps hear some of the things that you and I are saying is that, oh, these people are Luddites; they're against technology. But I wanted to, certainly on my end, just to state very clearly there's nothing in our book that's against technology. We're simply saying to optimize for the simplest technology, that is, you know, to our great inspiration here, who was a big inspiration, I know, for you and now for me because you brought her into my sphere. Pattie Maes' perspective from MIT on Fluid Interfaces and the importance, you know, no matter what advanced technology you're going to bring into whatever context, if that context of the technology, the use interface is not a fluid interface, you are simply doing yourself a disservice. You could have bought a $1 million CNC machine or maybe a $10 million whatever robot, but it has to work in your own organization, and this is just so important. So we're not against technologies. We're just saying these investments will be made. But you have to think about other things as you're making those investments. So I just wanted to make that point and hear your comment to that. NATAN: Yeah, look, I have a slightly...I guess a complementary angle to this is like when you think about it; I think that technologically democratized organizations in the day and age we living in the future. And what makes, I think, Augmented Lean span beyond the frontline operation perspective is because it tells a story of democratizing operation where fundamentally before lean...and we're talking about the mass production era. Mass production came from a military structure, you know, divisions, and battalions, and commanders, and ranks, and all that kind of stuff. Enters lean, and democratization starts. Forget technology. It starts because suddenly everybody on the Gemba Walk, you know, the walk where they have an equal voice to find problems on the shop floor, and list them up, and think about a solution, everybody has a voice. So these are fundamental things that shifted things like how you manage your warehouse, or how you do just-in-time, or how you are supposed to do continuous improvement. But you have to collect data to prove that this improvement is actually worthwhile doing. And this is exactly what agile took, and this is exactly the transition you saw in, well, because the market moves so fast and the internet is here, and clouds are real, why don't we not spend two years in a bunker doing waterfall software development? And, boom, we're now talking sprints and all that kind of stuff. And no one is even questioning that. And that's a lean approach we call agile, lean approach to how you do software development. And what I'm trying to say is, de facto, when I run a day in a company, like, I talk to my peers, and my leaders, and folks I work with on a daily basis. Everybody talks, yeah, we're on an operation sprint. We are on a marketing sprint. We are on a whatever sprint. What is that? That is a democratized organization with specific leaders owning functions and owning interfaces using tech stacks all over the place: the marketing stack, the sales stack, the HR stack, whatever. And where we roam also, we're part of the operational or OT stack, and that's what they're doing. And all this book is doing is saying, like, hey, it's actually happening. Let's give this a name. Let's put the beacon on this. Let's try and find what's the commonalities. Let's get the best stories that share the successes and the failures. We have plenty of failures there in the book that teach you something at this moment in time and set up the next decade. This next decade to me, is seminal. It's not very different to when technologies reached maturity, like clouds and what have you. 10, 15 years ago, you're talking about this thing, cloud, some people will go like, "What cloud? What are you talking about?" That's done. That's the disappearing edge of technology. Now we say AI and all that kind of stuff. And then the problem gets solved and disappearing, you know, it's like, so that's going to happen. I just think we gave it a good name and a good description at this point in time. TROND: Natan, I love the...personally, I'm a runner. I love the metaphor of a sprint, and for a couple of reasons, not just because I know what a sprint is and what it takes. But I love the fact that a sprint in a management context refers to sprinting partly together because it's a team-based effort. So some people need to sprint a little faster in certain aspects of that team process in order to deliver things that the team needs. But rounding up and thinking about how people can sprint with us, Natan, how should people think about learning more? So, obviously, reading the book. It's available on every bookstore, and Wiley published it, and it should be everywhere. There's even an e-book. But beyond that, what are your thoughts about how people can get in touch, join the movement, join the sprint of thinking about Augmented Lean? Which by the way, there is no one Augmented Lean principle. It's a menu of choices. There are ways that you can engage. There are ways you can implement it. It's not like a one, three-step process that everybody has to do. But there are ways that people can connect. We have this Augmented Podcast. What are your thoughts if people are gelling with this message? NATAN: I can talk about my heart's desire, okay, and my hallucination around this. And this is like, really, kind of living the dream and making sure democratization continues. If we are successful, at the moment, we are starting a movement. And there are millions of people who self-identify as lean Six Sigma quality professionals out there that know exactly what we're talking about viscerally. They spend their days trying to solve problems like that. They pore over data; they train people. They are the people creating the reports and trying to kind of help their organization take another step and another step in the never-ending journey of continuous improvement. We need to work on a much larger manifesto for Augmented Lean, and this is not for you and me; this is for a greater community to come together. So my recommendation is if you dig this and this is something you want to do, you know where to find us; go to augmentedlean.com. There's a contact email, our contact information. And I guess we can share it for that purpose somewhere in Augmented Podcast or our various other channels. And tell us what you think. And just join us. We're not sure exactly...we're starting from the excitement around launching the book with our close network of partners, and friends, and customers, and collaborators, and all our network. And it's a very exciting moment for us. But we're going to open it up, and it's going to be in the book tour, and it's going to be in various conferences. And the first law of creating a movement is show up. So I'm calling everybody to show up if you're okay with lean and the way it's going so far for you and Six Sigma. But if you feel the need to change and observed or experienced some of the stuff we're talking about in Augmented Lean, come tell us about it, and let's shape it up and get people together. The internet is the best tool on the planet to do that, and we'll get it done. Stay safe. TROND: Right. So, on that note, I want to round us off. I think that it should at least be clear from this conversation that both of us strongly feel that there are greater things ahead for industry and that manufacturing is not just a relevant piece of society, but there are things happening here that are coalescing that we are describing in the book, but that will happen independently of us and the very few examples we were able to put into the book. And folks that are interested in exploring what that means for them as individuals, as knowledge workers in the factory floor, or as executives who just want to be inspired the way people were inspired by the Toyota lean movement or other movements, they should come and contact us. Natan, thanks for spending the time today. NATAN: Yeah. Thanks, Trond. Always a pleasure. Will see you very soon. TROND: You have now just listened to another episode of the Augmented Podcast with host Trond Arne Undheim. The topic was Augmented Lean Prelaunch. Our guest was Natan Linder, in conversation with myself, Trond Arne Undheim. In this conversation, we talked about why we wrote a book and why C-level executives should read it. My takeaway is that industrial revolutions are rarely chronicled as they are happening, but this industrial revolution will be. There is an ongoing shift in the way technology and workforce combine to produce industrial change, and it is happening now. We are lucky to be situated in the middle of it. And I personally feel fortunate that I was brought along for the ride. It has been a life-changing experience to realize the power and impact of living through a shifting logic of manufacturing and, perhaps more importantly, to realize that as excited as we can be about automation, an augmented workforce represents the best combination of the most important technology we have which is human workers themselves with the second best machines that humans create. The fact that making humans and machines work together is no trivial task has been pointed out before but documenting what happens when it does go well in the biggest industrial companies on the planet feels like a story that deserves to be told. Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, please subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co. And if you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 96 on The People Side of Lean with Professor Jeff Liker, who wrote the best-selling book, The Toyota Way. Hopefully, you'll find something awesome in these or in other episodes, and if so, do let us know by messaging us because we would love to share your thoughts with other listeners. The Augmented Podcast is created in association with Tulip, the frontline operation platform that connects the people, machines, devices, and systems used in a production and logistics process in a physical location. Tulip is democratizing technology and is empowering those closest to operations to solve problems. You could find Tulip at tulip.co. Augmented — industrial conversations that matter. See you next time. Special Guest: Natan Linder.

We sit down with Pat Smith, CEO of Serve Denton located in Denton, Texas down is Tyler's country, everything is said to be bigger in Texas! His favorite meal and musician is George Strait, and he has a big heart for his community and our country. He is a veteran and now has turned his mission into serving the Denton, Texas community.  Desperation is a powerful force, if you aren't failing then you are not trying. FAIL stands for the first attempt at learning. He empowers his employees, by embracing the Toyota Way where failure is celebrated. If you fail in Pat's mind the process is broken not the person. It is if the company has set that individual up for success or failure with the given policies, procedures, and processes.  Pat shares that we in leadership today need to give our employees space. Trust them, that they can and will fail but as long as we learn and continue to improve we are always getting better. 

Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations, where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. The topic is "The People Side of Lean." Our guest is Jeffrey Liker, academic, consultant, and best-selling author of The Toyota Way (https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Way-Management-Principles-Manufacturer/dp/B09BDC3525/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2JABTVWQBAZC8&keywords=the+toyota+way&qid=1661872838&sprefix=the+toyot%2Caps%2C107&sr=8-1). In this conversation, we talk about how to develop internal organizational capability and problem-solving skills on the frontline. If you liked this show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/). If you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 84 on The Evolution of Lean (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/84). Augmented is a podcast for industry leaders, process engineers, and shop floor operators, hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim (https://trondundheim.com/) and presented by Tulip (https://tulip.co/). Follow the podcast on Twitter (https://twitter.com/AugmentedPod) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/75424477/). Trond's Takeaway: Lean is about motivating people to succeed in an industrial organization more than it is about a bundle of techniques to avoid waste on a factory production line. The goal is to have workers always asking themselves if there is a better way. Transcript: TROND: Welcome to another episode of the Augmented Podcast. Augmented brings industrial conversations that matter, serving up the most relevant conversations on industrial tech. Our vision is a world where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is the People Side of Lean. Our guest is Jeffrey Liker, academic, consultant, and best-selling author of The Toyota Way. In this conversation, we talk about how to develop internal organizational capability, problem-solving skills on the frontline. Augmented is a podcast for industry leaders, process engineers, and shop floor operators, hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim and presented by Tulip. Jeffrey, how are you? Welcome to the podcast. JEFFREY: Thank you. TROND: So I think some people in this audience will have read your book or have heard of your book and your books but especially the one that I mentioned, Toyota. So I think we'll talk about that a little bit. But you started out as an engineering undergrad at Northeastern, and you got yourself a Ph.D. in sociology. And then I've been reading up on you and listening to some of the stuff on the musical side of things. I think we both are guitarists. JEFFREY: Oh, is that right? TROND: Yeah, yeah, classical guitar in my case. So I was wondering about that. JEFFREY: So I play also a classical guitar now. I played folk and rock earlier when I was young. But for the last more than ten years, I've been only studying classical guitar. TROND: Well, so then we share a bunch of hours practicing the etude, so Fernando Sor, and eventually getting to the Villa-Lobos stuff. So the reason I bring that up, of course, beyond it's wonderful to talk about this kind of stuff with, you know, there aren't that many classical guitarists out there. But you said something that I thought maybe you could comment on later. But this idea of what happened to you during your studies of classical guitar actually plays into what you later brought into your professional life in terms of teaching you something about practicing in particular ways. So I hope you can get into that. But obviously, you've then become a professor. You are a speaker and an advisor, and an author of this bestseller, The Toyota Way. Now you run some consulting. And I guess I'm curious; this was a very, very brief attempt at summarizing where you got into this. What was it that brought you into manufacturing in the first place? I mean, surely, it wasn't just classical guitar because that's not a linear path. [laughs] JEFFREY: No. So for undergraduate, I had basically studied industrial engineering because I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. And my father was an engineer. And then I literally took a course catalog and just started reading the descriptions of different kinds of engineering. And industrial engineering was the only one that mentioned people. And in theory, industrial engineering is a systems perspective which integrates people, materials, methods, machines, the four Ms. And in the description from Northeastern University, they said it's as much about human organization as it is about tools and techniques. So that appealed to me. When I got to Northeastern...I was not a particularly good high school student. So I didn't have a lot of choices of what colleges I went to, so Northeastern was pretty easy to get into. But they had a cooperative education program where you go to school, and you work. You go back and forth between school and work and had a pretty elaborate system for setting you up with jobs. I got one of the better jobs, which was at a company called General Foods Corporation at the time, and they make things like Jell-O, and Gravy Train dog food, and Birds Eye vegetables, and a lot of other household names, Kool-Aid, all automated processes, even at that time in the 1970s. And they had been experimenting with something called socio-technical systems, which is supposed to be what I was interested in, which is bringing together the social and technical, which no one at Northeastern University had any interest in except me. But I was very interested in this dog food plant where they were written up as a case study pioneer. And the basic essence of it was to give groups of people who are responsible, for example, for some automated processes to make a certain line of Gravy Train dog food, give them responsibility for all their processes, and they called them autonomous workgroups. And what we try to do is as much as possible, give them all the responsibility so they can work autonomously without having to go and find the engineer or deal with other support functions, which takes time and is kind of a waste. So that fascinated me. I studied it. I wrote papers about it even in courses where it didn't fit. But the closest I could get to the social side was through sociology courses which I took as soon as I was able to take electives, which was about my third year. And I got to know a sociology professor closely and ultimately decided to get a Ph.D. in sociology and did that successfully, published papers in sociology journals at a pretty high level. And then discovered it was really hard to get a job. TROND: Right. [laughs] JEFFREY: And there happened to be an advertisement from an industrial engineering department at University of Michigan for someone with a Ph.D. in a social science and an undergraduate degree in industrial engineering. And I was probably the only person in the world that fit the job. And they were so excited to hear from me because they had almost given up. And I ended up getting that job quickly then getting to Michigan excited because it's a great university. I had a low teaching load. They paid more than sociology departments. So it was like a dream job. Except once I got there, I realized that I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing [chuckles] because it wasn't a sociology department. And I had gotten away from industry. In fact, I was studying family development and life's course development, and more personal psychology and sociology stuff. So I was as far away as I could be. So I had to kind of figure out what to do next. And fortunately, being at Michigan and also being unique, a lot of people contacted me and wanted me to be part of their projects. And one of them was a U.S.-Japan auto study comparing the U.S.-Japan auto industry going at the same time as a study at MIT and Harvard that ultimately led to the book The Machine That Changed the World, which defined lean manufacturing. So this was sort of a competitive program. And they asked me to be part of it, and that's what led to my learning about Toyota. I mean, I studied Toyota, Nissan, Mazda mainly and compared them to GM, Ford, and Chrysler. But it was clear that Toyota was different and special. And ultimately, then I learned about the Toyota Production System. And from my perspective, not from people in Toyota, but from my perspective, what they had done is really solve the problem of socio-technical systems. Because what I was seeing at General Foods was workers who were responsible for technical process and then were given autonomy to run the process, but there was nothing really socio-technical about it. There was a technical system, and then there was social system autonomous work groups and not particularly connected in a certain way. But the Toyota Production System truly was a system that was designed to integrate people with the technical system, which included things like stamping, and welding, and painting, which were fairly automated as well as assembly, which is purely manual. And Toyota had developed this back in the 1940s when it was a lone company and then continued to evolve it. And the main pillars are just-in-time and built-in quality. They have a house, and then the foundation is stable and standardized processes. And in the center are people who are continuously improving. Now, the socio-technical part the connection is that just-in-time for Toyota means that we're trying to flow value to the customer without interruption. So if what they do is turn raw materials into cars that you drive, then anything that's turning material into a component or car physically is value-added, and everything else is waste. And so things like defects where you have to do rework are waste. And machines are shut down, so we have to wait for the machines to get fixed; that's waste. And inventory sitting in piles doing nothing is waste. So the opposite of waste is a perfect process. And Toyota also was smart enough, and all that they figured out was more like folk learning or craft learning. It was learning from doing and experience and common sense. And they didn't particularly care about linking it to academic theories or learning from academic theories, for that matter. So their common sense view is that the world is complicated. Humans are really bad at predicting the future. So the best we can do is to get in the ballpark with what we think is a good process and then run it and see how it fails. And then the failures are what lead to then the connection of people who have to solve the problems through creative thinking. So that was the integration that I did not see before that. TROND: Just one thing that strikes me...because nowadays, comparing the U.S. or Europe and Asia in terms of business practices, it's sort of like, oh, of course, you have to compare them because they are culturally different. But it strikes me that in the automotive industry, was it immediately really clear to you at the outset that there would be such striking differences between the Japanese and the U.S. auto industry? Or is that actually something that had to be studied? Or was it something that was known, but no one really knew exactly what the differences were? JEFFREY: So it wasn't like the American auto companies figured out that if they get good at using chopsticks, they'll be good at making cars. They weren't looking for something peculiar in Japanese culture. But they were addressing the more general problem, which was that Japanese companies were making small fuel-efficient cars at low cost with high quality. And none of the American companies could do that. The costs were higher. The quality was terrible compared to Japan. They took a long time to do everything, including developing cars. So somehow, the Japanese were purported, they weren't convinced this was true, but according to the evidence, the Japanese were purported to be better at just about everything. And the Americans wanted to know why particularly. And at that time, there had been an oil crisis, and there was a demand for small cars. The real question they were interested in is how could they make small cars that were competitive with the Japanese? So they had to understand what the Japanese were doing. Now, they realized that some of what the Japanese were doing were purely technical things that had nothing to do with culture. And then there was also a level of attention to detail and motivation that maybe was, for some reason, peculiar to Japan. But they needed to figure out how to replicate it in the United States. And then, in addition to that, they had Americans like Dr. Deming, who had gone to Japan and taught the Japanese supposedly quality control methods. And Japanese companies had taken quality control methods that were created in the United States more seriously than the American companies. So part of it was relearning what came from America to Japan and got done better. So it wasn't necessarily this kind of strange place, and how can we emulate this strange culture? TROND: Right. But that becomes then your challenge then, right? Because what you then discover is that your field is immensely important to this because what you then went on to do is...and I guess part of your consulting work has been developing internal organizational capability. These are skills that particular organizations, namely Toyota, had in Japan. So you're thinking that this then became...it's like a learning process, the Japanese learned some lessons, and then the whole rest of the automotive industry then they were trying to relearn those lessons. Is that sort of what has been happening then in the 30 years after that? JEFFREY: Yeah, the basic question was, why are they so good? Why are we so bad? And how can we get better in America? Then there were lots of answers to that question coming from different people in different places. My particular answer was that Toyota especially had developed a socio-technical system that was extremely effective, that was centered on people who were developed to have the skills of problem-solving and continuous improvement. And while the study was going on, they were doing a study out of MIT that led to The Machine That Changed the World. And around that same time, a joint venture between Toyota and General Motors had been formed called NUMMI. It was in California. And in their first year, it was launched in 1983, and in the first year, they had taken what was the worst General Motors plant in the world, with the worst attendance, the worst morale, workers who were fighting against supervisors every day, including physically fighting with them, terrible quality, and General Motors had closed the plant because it was so bad. And then, in the joint venture, they reopened the plant and took back 80% of the same workers who were like the worst of the worst of American workers. And within a year, Toyota had turned the plant around so that it was the best in North America with the best workers. TROND: That's crazy, right? Because wouldn't some of the research thesis in either your study or in the MIT study, The Machine That Changed the World, would have to have been around technology or at least some sort of ingenious plan that these people had, you know, some secret sauce that someone had? Would you say that these two research teams were surprised at finding that the people was the key to the difference here or motivating people in a different way? JEFFREY: Well, frankly, I think I probably had a better grasp that people were really the key than most other researchers because of my background and my interest in human-centered manufacturing. So I was kind of looking for that. And it was what the Toyota people would say...whenever they made a presentation or whenever you interviewed them, they would say, "People are kind of distracted by the tools and methods, but really at the center are people." And generally, most people listening to them didn't believe it, or it didn't register. Because Toyota did have cool stuff, like, for example, something called a kanban system, which is how do you move material around in the factory? They have thousands of parts that have to all be moved and orchestrated in complicated ways. And Toyota did it with physical cards. And the concept was a pulse system that the worker; when they see that they're getting low on parts, they take a card and they post it. They put it in a box, and then the material handler picks it up. And they said, okay, they need another bin of these. On my next route, I'll bring a bin of whatever cards I get. So they were replenishing the line based on a signal from the operator saying, "I need more." So it was a signal from the person who knows best what they need. And it also, from Toyota's point of view, put the employee in the driver's seat because now they're controlling their supply in addition to controlling their work process. And it didn't require that you predict the future all the time because who knows what is happening on the line and where they're backed up, and where they maybe have too many parts, and they don't need more? But the worker knows. He knows when he needs it and when he doesn't. It was kind of an ingenious system, but the fact that you had these cards moving all over the factory and thousands of parts are moving just to the right place at the right time based on these cards, that was fascinating. So a lot of the consumers were more interested in that than they were in the people aspect, even though Toyota kept talking about the people aspect. TROND: But so this is my question, then there was more than one element that they were doing right. JEFFREY: There were multiple elements, yeah. TROND: There were multiple elements. Some of them were structural or visual, famously. JEFFREY: Right. TROND: But you then started focusing, I guess, on not just the people aspect, but you started structuring that thinking because the obvious question must have been, how can we do some of this ourselves? And I guess that's my question is once you and the team started figuring out okay, there are some systematic differences here in the way they motivate people, handle the teams, but also structure, honestly, the organizational incentives minute by minute, how then did you think about transferring this? Or were you, at this point, just really concerned about describing it? JEFFREY: Like I said, I was kind of unusual in my background, being somewhere between industrial engineering and sociology and being in industrial engineering departments. So maybe I wasn't as constrained by some of the constraints of my academic colleagues. But I never believed this whole model that the university gathers information structures that formulates it, then tells the world what to do. I never thought that made any sense. And certainly, in the case of lean, it didn't, and it wasn't true. So the way that companies were learning about this stuff was from consultants, largely, and from people who had worked for Toyota. So anybody who had worked for Toyota, even if they were driving a forklift truck, in some cases, suddenly became a hot commodity. I consulted to Ford, and they were developing the Ford Production System. They were using a consulting firm, and all their consulting firm's business was to poach people from Toyota and then sell them as consultants to other companies. And that company literally had people every day of the week who were in their cars outside the gates of Toyota. And as people came out, they would start talking to them to try to find people that they could hire away from Toyota. TROND: It's funny to hear you talking about that, Jeff, right? Because in some way, you, of all people, you're a little bit to blame for the fame of Toyota in that sense. I mean, you've sold a million books with The New Toyota -- JEFFREY: Well, that was -- TROND: I'm just saying it's a phenomenon here that people obsess over a company, but you were part of creating this movement and this enormous interest in this. [laughs] JEFFREY: I didn't feel that that was...I personally had a policy because I had a consulting company too. So I personally had a policy that I would not hire somebody away from Toyota unless they were leaving anyway. That was my personal policy. But the important point was that there were a lot of really well-trained people coming out of Toyota who really understood the whole system and had lived it. And they could go to any other company and do magic, and suddenly things got better. [laughs] And what they were doing was setting up the structures and the tools, and they also were engaging the people and coaching the people. They were doing both simultaneously, and that's how they were trained. Toyota had sent an army of Japanese people to America. So every person who was in a leadership position had a one-on-one coach for years, a person whose only reason for being in the United States was to train them. So they got excellent training, and then they were able to use that training. And then other people once they had worked with a company and then that company got good at lean, then, within that company, you'd spawn more consultants change agents. Like, there was a company that I was studying called Donnelly Mirrors that made exterior mirrors for cars. And one of the persons that was trained by a Toyota person became a plant manager. And he ended up then getting offered a job as the vice president of manufacturing for Merillat Kitchen Cabinets. And now he's the CEO of the parent company that owns Merillat. And he's transformed the entire company. So little by little, this capability developed where most big companies in the world have hired people with lean experience. Sometimes it's second generation, sometimes third generation. And there are some very well-trained people. So the capability still resides within the people. And if you have someone who doesn't understand the system but they just set up a kanban system or they set up quality systems, and they try to imitate what they read in a book or what they learned in a course; usually, it doesn't work very well. TROND: Well, that was going to be my next question. Because how scalable is this beyond the initial learnings of Toyota and the fact that it has relied so heavily on consulting? Because there is sort of an alternate discourse in a lot of organizational thinking these days that says, well, not just that the people are the key to it but actually, that as a leader, however much you know or how aware you are of people processes, it is the organization itself that kind of has to find the answers. So there's perhaps some skepticism that you can come in and change a culture. Aren't there organizations that have such strong organizational practices, whether they are cultural in some meaningful way or they're simply this is the way they've done things that even one person who comes in has a hard time applying a Toyota method? What do you think about that kind of challenge? JEFFREY: Okay, so, anyway, I think what you said is...how I would interpret it is it's a gross oversimplification of reality. So first of all, in the second edition of The Toyota Way, because I realized from the first edition, which was fairly early back in the early 2000s, I realized that some people were taking my message as copy Toyota, even though I didn't say that in the book. And I specifically said not to do that, but I said it in the last chapter. So I put out the second edition a year ago, and I say it in the first page or first few pages. I say, "Don't copy Toyota," and explain why. And then, throughout the book, I say that, and then, in the end, I say, "Develop your own system." So it's probably repeated a dozen times or more with the hope that maybe somebody would then not ask me after reading it, "So, are we supposed to copy Toyota?" So the reason for that is because, as you said, you have your own culture. And you're in a different situation. You're in a different industry. You're starting in a different place. You're drawing on different labor. You have maybe plants around the world that are in different situations. So the other thing I said in the book, which is kind of interesting and counterintuitive, is I said, "Don't copy Toyota; even Toyota doesn't copy Toyota." TROND: So what does that mean? Did they really not? JEFFREY: What it means is that...because Toyota had this dilemma that they had developed this wonderful system in Japan that worked great, but they realized that in auto, you need to be global to survive. So when they set up NUMMI, that was the first experiment they did to try to bring their system to a different culture. And in reality, if you look at some of the cultural dimensions that make lean work in Japan, the U.S. is almost opposite on every one of them, like, we're the worst case. So if you were a scientist and you said, let's find the hardest place in the world to make this work and see if we can make it work, it would be the United States, particularly with General Motors workers already disaffected and turned off. So Toyota's perspective was, let's go in with a blank sheet of paper and pretend we know nothing. We know what the total production system is and what we're trying to achieve with it. But beyond that, we don't know anything about the human resource system and how to set it up. And so they hired Americans, and they coached them. But they relied a lot on Americans, including bringing back the union leader of the most militant union in America. They brought him back. TROND: Wow. JEFFREY: And said, "You're a leader for a reason. They chose you. We need your help. We're going to teach you about our system, but you need to help make it work." So that created this sort of new thing, a new organizational entity in California. And then what Toyota learned from that was not a new solution that they then brought to every other plant, whether it was Czechoslovakia, or England, or China. But rather, they realized we need to evolve a cultural system every time we set up a plant, starting with the local culture. And we need to get good at doing that, and they got good at doing it. So they have, I don't know, how many plants but over 100 plants around the world and in every culture you can imagine. And every one of them becomes the benchmark for that country as one of their best plants. And people come and visit it and are amazed by what they see. The basic principles are what I try to explain in The Toyota Way. The principles don't change. At some level, the principle is we need continuous improvement because we never know how things are going to fail until they fail. So we need to be responding to these problems as a curse. We need people at every level well trained at problem-solving. And to get people to take on that additional responsibility, we need to treat people with a high level of respect. So their model, The Toyota Way, was simply respect for people and continuous improvement. And that won't change no matter where they go. And their concept of how to teach problem-solving doesn't change. And then their vision of just-in-time one-piece flow that doesn't change, and their vision of building in quality so that you don't allow outflows of poor quality beyond your workstation that doesn't change. So there are some fundamental principles that don't change, but how exactly they are brought into the plant and what the human resource system looks like, there'll be sort of an amalgam between the Japanese model and the local model. But they, as quickly as possible, try to give local autonomy to people from that culture to become the plant managers, to become the leaders. And they develop those people; often, those people will go to Japan for periods of time. TROND: So, Jeff, I want to move to...well, you say a lot of things with Toyota don't change because they adapt locally. So my next question is going to be about future outlook. But before we get there, can we pick up on this classical guitar lesson? So you were playing classical guitar. And there was something there that, at least you said that in one interview that I picked up on, something to do with the way that guitar study is meticulous practice, which both you and I know it is. You literally will sit plucking a string sometimes to hear the sound of that string. I believe that was the example. So can you explain that again? Because, I don't know, maybe it was just me, but it resonated with me. And then you brought it back to how you actually best teach this stuff. Because you were so elaborate, but also you rolled off your tongue all these best practices of Toyota. And unless you either took your course or you are already literate in Toyota, no one can remember all these things, even though it's like six different lessons from Toyota or 14 in your book. It is a lot. But on the other hand, when you are a worker, and you're super busy with your manager or just in the line here and you're trying to pick up on all these things, you discovered with a colleague, I guess, who was building on some of your work some ways that had something in common with how you best practice classical guitar. What is that all about? JEFFREY: Well, so, first of all, like I said, the core skill that Toyota believes every person working for Toyota should have is what they call problem-solving. And that's the ability to, when they see a problem, to study what's really happening. Why is this problem occurring? And then try out ideas to close the gap between what should be happening and what is happening. And you can view that as running experiments. So the scientific mindset is one of I don't know. I need to collect the data and get the evidence. And also, I don't know if my idea works until I test it and look at what happens and study what happens. So that was very much central in Toyota. And they also would talk about on-the-job development, and they were very skeptical of any classroom teaching or any conceptual, theoretical explanations. So the way you would learn something is you'd go to the shop floor and do it with a supervisor. So the first lesson was to stand in a circle and just observe without preconceptions, kind of like playing one-string guitar. And the instructor would not tell you anything about what you should be looking for. But they would just ask you questions to try to dig deeper into what's really going on with the problems or why the problems are occurring. And the lesson length with guitar, you might be sweating after 20 minutes of intense practice. This lesson length was eight hours. So for eight hours, you're just on the shop floor taking breaks for lunch and to go to the bathroom and in the same place just watching. So that was just an introductory lesson to open your mind to be able to see what's really happening. And then they would give you a task to, say, double the productivity of an area. And you would keep on trying. They would keep on asking questions, and eventually, you would achieve it. So this on-the-job development was learning by doing. Now, later, I came to understand that the culture of Japan never really went beyond the craftsman era of the master-apprentice relationship. That's very central throughout Japan, whether you're making dolls, or you're wrapping gifts, or you're in a factory making a car. So the master-apprentice relationship system is similar to you having a guitar teacher. And then, if you start to look at modern psychology leadership books, popular leadership books, there's a fascination these days with the idea of habits, how people form habits and the role of habits in our lives. So one of my former students, Mike Rother, who had become a lean practitioner, we had worked together at Ford, for example, and was very good at introducing the tools of lean and transforming a plant. He started to observe time after time that they do great work. He would check in a few months later, and everything they had done had fallen apart and wasn't being followed anymore. And his ultimate conclusion was that what they were missing was the habit of scientific thinking that Toyota put so much effort into. But he realized that it would be a bad solution to, say, find a Toyota culture -- TROND: Right. And go study scientific thinking. Yeah, exactly. JEFFREY: Right. So he developed his own way in companies he was working with who let him experiment. He developed his own way of coaching people and developing coaches inside the company. And his ultimate vision was that every manager becomes a coach. They're a learner first, and they learn scientific thinking, then they coach others, which is what Toyota does. But he needed more structure than Toyota had because the Toyota leaders just kind of learned this over the last 25 years working in the company. And he started to create this structure of practice routines, like drills we would have in guitar. And he also had studied mastery. There's a lot of research about how do you master any complex skill, and it was 10,000 hours of practice and that idea. But what he discovered was that the key was deliberate practice, where you always know what you should be doing and comparing it to what you are doing, and then trying to close the gap. And that's what a good instructor will do is ask you to play this piece, realize that you're weak in certain areas, and then give you an exercise. And then you practice for a week and come back, and he listens again to decide whether you've mastered or not or whether he needs to go back, or we can move to the next step. So whatever complex skill you're learning, whether it's guitar, playing a sport, or learning how to cook, a good teacher will break down the skill into small pieces. And then, you will practice those pieces until you get them right. And the teacher will judge whether you got them right or not. And then when you're ready, then you move on. And then, as you collect these skills, you start to learn to make nice music that sounds good. So it turns out that Mike was developing this stuff when he came across a book on the martial arts. And they use the term kata, which is used in Japanese martial arts for these small practice routines, what you do repeatedly exactly as the master shows you. And the master won't let you move on until you've mastered that one kata. Then they'll move to the second kata and then third. And if you ask somebody in karate, "How many katas do you have?" They might say, "46," and you say, "Wow, you're really good. You've mastered 46 kata, like playing up through the 35th Sor exercise. So he developed what he called the improvement kata, which is here is how you practice scientific thinking, breaking it down into pieces, practicing each piece, and then a coaching kata for what the coach does to coach the student. And the purpose of the scientific thinking is not to publish a paper in a journal but to achieve a life goal, which could be something at work, or it could be that I want to lose weight. It could be a personal goal, or I want to get a new job that pays more and is a better job. And it becomes an exploration process of setting the goal. And then breaking down the goal into little pieces and then taking a step every day continuously toward, say, a weekly target and then setting the next week's target, and next week's target and you work your way up the mountain toward the goal. So that became known as Toyota Kata. He wrote a book called Toyota Kata. And then, I put into my model in the new Toyota Way; in the center of the model, I put scientific thinking. And I said this is really the heart and soul of The Toyota Way. And you can get this but only by going back to school, but not school where you listen to lectures but school where you have to do something, and then you're getting coached by someone who knows what they're doing, who knows how to be a coach. TROND: So my question following this, I think, will be interesting to you, or hopefully, because we've sort of gone through our conversation a little bit this way without jumping to the next step too quickly. Because the last question that I really have for you is, what are the implications of all of this? You have studied, you know, Toyota over years and then teaching academically, and in industry, you've taught these lessons. But what are the implications for the future development of, I guess, management practice in organizations, in manufacturing? Given all that you just said and what you've previously iterated about Toyota's ideas that not a lot of things change or necessarily have to change, how then should leaders go about thinking about the future? And I'm going to put in a couple of more things there into the future. I mean, even just the role of digital, the role of technology, the role of automation, all of these things, that it's not like they are the future, but they are, I guess, they are things that have started to change. And there are expectations that might have been brought into the company that these are new, very, very efficient improvement tools. But given everything that you just said about katas and the importance of practicing, how do you think and how do you teach preparing for the future of manufacturing? JEFFREY: And I have been working with a variety of companies that have developed what you might call industry 4.0 technologies, digital technologies, and I teach classes where a lot of the students are executives from companies where in some cases, they have a dual role of lean plus digitalization. So they're right at the center of these two things. And what I learned going back to my undergraduate industrial engineering days and then to my journey with Toyota, I was always interested in the centrality of people, whatever the tools are. And what I was seeing as an undergraduate was that most of the professors who were industrial engineers really didn't have much of a concept of people. They were just looking at techniques for improving efficiency as if the techniques had the power themselves. And what I discovered with people in IT, and software development, and the digital movement is often they don't seem to have a conception of people. And people from their point of view are basically bad robots [laughs] that don't do what they're supposed to do repeatedly. So the ultimate view of some of the technologists who are interested in industry 4.0 is to eliminate the people as much as possible and eliminate human judgment by, for example, putting it into artificial intelligence and having the decisions made by computers. I'm totally convinced from lots of different experiences with lots of different companies that the AI is extremely powerful and it's a breakthrough, but it's very weak compared to the human brain. And what the AI can do is to make some routine decisions, which frees up the person to deal with the bigger problems that aren't routine and can also provide useful data and even some insight that can help the person in improving the process. So I still see people as the ultimate customer for the insights that come out of this digital stuff, Internet of Things, and all that. But in some cases, they can control a machine tool and make an automatic adjustment without any human intervention, but then the machine breaks down. And then the human has to come in and solve the problem. So if you're thinking about digitalization as tools to...and sometimes have a closed loop control system without the person involved. But in addition, maybe, more importantly, to provide useful data to the human, suddenly, you have to think about the human and what makes us tick and what we respond to. And for example, it's very clear that we're much better at taking in visual information than text information. And that's one of the things that is part of the Toyota Production System is visual management. So how can you make the results of what the AI system come up with very clear and simple, and visual so people can respond quickly to the problem? And most of these systems are really not very good. The human user interface is not well designed because they're not starting with the person. And the other thing is that there are physical processes. Sometimes I kind of make a sarcastic remark, like, by the way, the Internet of Things actually includes things. TROND: [laughs] JEFFREY: And there's a different skill set for designing machines and making machines work and repairing machines than there is for designing software. There are a lot of physical things that have to go on in a factory, changing over equipment, be it for making different parts. And the vision of the technologists might be we'll automate all that, which may be true. Maybe 30 years from now, most of what I say about people will be irrelevant in a factory. I doubt it. But maybe it's 100 years from now, but it's going to be a long time. And there was an interesting study, for example, that looked at the use of robots. And they looked at across the world jobs that could be done by a human or could be done by a robot. And they found that of all the jobs that could be done by a human or a robot, 3% were done by robots, 97%...so this kind of vision of the robots driven by artificial intelligence doing the work of people is really science fiction. It's mostly fiction at this point. At some point, it might become real, but it's got a long way to go. So we still need to understand how to motivate, develop people. But particularly, the more complex the information becomes and the more information available, the more important it is to train people first of all in problem-solving and scientific thinking to use the data effectively and also to simplify the data because we're actually not very good at using a lot of data. We actually can't handle a lot of bits of data at a time like a computer can. So we need simple inputs that then allow us to use our creativity to solve the problem. And most of the companies are not doing that very well. They're offering what they call digital solutions, and I hate that term, on the assumption that somehow the digital technology is the solution. And really, what the digital technology is is just information that can be an input to humans coming up with solutions that fit their situation at that time, not generic solutions. TROND: It's fascinating that you started out with people. You went through all these experiences, and you are directly involved with digital developments. But you're still sticking to the people. We'll see how long that lasts. I think people, from the people I have interviewed, maybe self-selected here on the podcast, people and processes seem enormously important still in manufacturing. Thank you for your perspective. It's been a very rich discussion. And I hope I can bring you back. And like you said if in X number of years people are somehow less important...well, I'm sure their role will change, will adjust. But you're suspecting that no matter what kind of technology we get, there will be some role, or there should be some role for people because you think the judgment even that comes into play is going to be crucial. Is that what I'm -- JEFFREY: There's one more thing I want to add. If you look at industry 4.0, it'll list these are the elements of industry 4.0, and they're all digital technologies. But there's something that's becoming increasingly popular called industry 5.0, where they're asking what's beyond industry 4.0? Which has barely been implemented. But why not look beyond it? Because we've talked about it enough that it must be real. Once we kind of talk about something enough, we kind of lose interest in it. We want to go on to the next thing. So none of these things necessarily have been implemented very well and very broadly. But anyway, so industry 5.0 is about putting people back in the center. So I call it a rework loop. Uh-oh, we missed that the first time. Let's add it back in. TROND: So then what's going to happen if that concludes? Are we going to then go back to some new version of industry 4.0, or will it -- JEFFREY: Well, industry 4.0 is largely a bunch of companies selling stuff and then a bunch of conferences. If you go and actually visit factories, they're still making things in the same way they've always made them. And then there's a monitor that has information on a screen. And the IT person will show you that monitor, and the person on the floor may not even know what it is. But there's a disconnect between a lot of these technologies and what's actually happening on the shop floor to make stuff. And when they do have a success, they'll show you that success. You know, there's like hundreds of processes in the factory. And they'll show you the three that have industry 4.0 solutions in there. And so it's a long way before we start to see these technologies broadly, not only adopted but used effectively in a powerful way. And I think as that happens, we will notice that the companies that do the best with them have highly developed people. TROND: Fantastic. That's a good ending there. I thank you so much. I believe you've made a difference here, arguing for the continued and continuing role of people. And thank you so much for these reflections. JEFFREY: Welcome. Thank you. My pleasure. TROND: You have just listened to another episode of the Augmented Podcast with host Trond Arne Undheim. The topic was the People Side of Lean. Our guest was Jeffrey Liker, academic, consultant, and best-selling author of The Toyota Way. In this conversation, we talked about how to develop internal organizational capability. My takeaway is that Lean is about motivating people to succeed in an industrial organization more than it is about a bundle of techniques to avoid waste on a factory production line. The goal is to have workers always asking themselves if there is a better way. Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co or in your preferred podcast player, and rate us with five stars. If you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 84 on The Evolution of Lean. Hopefully, you will find something awesome in these or in other episodes. And if you do, let us know by messaging us, and we would love to share your thoughts with other listeners. The Augmented Podcast is created in association with Tulip, the frontline operation platform that connects people, machines, devices, and systems used in a production or logistics process in a physical location. Tulip is democratizing technology and empowering those closest to operations to solve problems. Tulip is also hiring, and you can find Tulip at tulip.co. Please share this show with colleagues who care about where industry and especially where industrial tech is heading. To find us on social media is easy; we are Augmented Pod on LinkedIn and Twitter and Augmented Podcast on Facebook and YouTube. Augmented — industrial conversations that matter. See you next time. Special Guest: Jeffrey Liker.

A few years ago, Kitsbow undertook an incredibly ambitious plan to move to Old Fort, North Carolina, and bring all of their apparel production to the United States, after years of working with overseas factories. In doing so, they not only found a way to adapt to today's challenging supply chain logistics, but they also trained an entirely new workforce and spearheaded the revitalization of their new hometown, which had been losing manufacturing jobs for decades. So we talked with their CEO, David Billstrom, about how they did that while weathering a global pandemic; how doing so has been a boon to the brand, their customers, and their local community; and how they hope to be a blueprint for other companies to do the same.TOPICS & TIMES:Covid shields and facemasks (4:57)Moving to North Fort, NC (10:34)The Toyota Way (25:15)Domestic manufacturing & efficiency (31:53)Revitalizing a community (38:05)Employee purchase as a Public Benefit Corporation (52:54)David's Big Idea (1:00:28)What We're Celebrating (1:02:20)RELATED LINKS:Ep. 20: How the Outdoor Industry is Helping Fight CovidBlister LabsGear Giveaway / Newsletter SignupBecome a Blister Member / Get our new Buyer's GuideBlister Mountain Bike Buyer's GuideCHECK OUT OUR OTHER PODCASTS:Blister PodcastBikes & Big IdeasOff the Couch See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.