Podcast appearances and mentions of jeff i'm

Jeff Adler, Vice President of Yardi Matrix share his view of the latest state of Multifamily commercial asset class. Show: Achieve Wealth Podcast  Guest: Jeff Adler  Title: Multifamily State of Union with Jeff Adler  Host:  Hi Audience, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast, a podcast where we are tuning in to learn as much as possible. Today, we are bringing in an awesome guest, who is the keynote speaker at many conferences, many high-level conferences, so was able to get his time to spend with us today to go to as what I call the state of the Union of multifamily real estate. So today we have Jeff Adler who is the vice president of Yardi Metrics. Yardi Metrics is a US multifamily office, industrial and south storage as an information toolset in coordinating underwriting and asset managing commercial real estate investment.   So if you have subscribed to Yardi metrics report, which is awesome, very, very data rich and I think it should be part of your decision making in selecting markets and looking at trends in terms of a commercial real estate, especially on multifamily. Your mail would have come from Jeff Adler. So I'm very pleased to bring Jeff on board. Jeff, why don't you tell my audience something about yourself and your company that I would have missed out?  Jeff:   I'm based here in Denver. You already made fixes. Basically the data division of Yardi systems, which is well known in the property management sphere, across all different asset classes, we cover the multifamily office, industrial self-storage in all those different other asset classes. But my background was primarily in multifamily. I was the chief operating officer of a [01:49unintelligible] in Denver,  for about 10 years from 2002 to 2009 and I joined matrix about five years ago. So that's kind of what we do. And some of the work that I do is the basic products, the tool kit that helps you identify opportunities under find deals, underwrite deals, understand markets, understand entities and players in those markets. And then on top of that work, I have a team along with Jack Kern that talks about investment strategy, investment themes and the overall economy.   And so we try to put everything into context from kind of what's going on in the global economy, straight down to which deals should you buy that fits your investment strategy. And that's kind of what we do. So happy to be on the podcast and give you any information about what it is we're thinking.  Host: Yeah, I'm really excited because I read the reports that are created by Yardi Metrics on whenever you guys send by-market, by-economic at high levels so it's very, very informative and I love it.  Jeff:  As a part of what we do to get our name out, you can go to yardimatrix.com/publications and for free, sign up for our [03:16unintelligible] reports where we do those 10 multifamily markets a month, six office markets a month. We also do a monthly report that's free on the multifamily market nationally, the office market nationally and self-storage market national. So there's a lot that you can plug into that kind of can set a context so we provide free. And then if you want to learn deeper then you can talk with us and go deeper into the data service. So that was the resources that are available to all of your sort of listeners.  Host: Yeah, yeah. I would encourage all your listeners if you want to do commercial real estate, especially multifamily or an office or self-storage, go and subscribe right now. It's an awesome, awesome tool and information is free and it's really good.   Jeff: What else can I do for you? Let's get in there and let's start talking.  Host: Yeah, yeah. Correct. I mean I know we talk a lot about multifamily because I'm a multifamily operator. We own 1400 units in San Antonio, Austin, Texas. But I want to always understand about other asset class. I mean, recently I launch a book, it's called Passive investing, Commercial Real Estate, which I also talk about other asset classes. So I'm very happy to ask you questions about other than multifamily, you know, as a start. So compared to multifamily office and self-storage, what are the good and bad about each one of this asset class from your perspective since you look at all of this?  Jeff: Yeah, personally, I think multifamily is in an incredible sweet spot. So let me take a multifamily and we can compare it to other asset classes. The reason is is that there is an overall shortage of housing in the United States, which to a greater or lesser degree in different markets. And then it's really kind of an overhang from the kind of the crash. So we had a surplus of housing in going into the crash. But really now we have deficits, on a cumulative basis since '06, we've got a 200,000 unit multifamily and single family deficits. If you go from the bottom of the crash, it's about 2 million units. So how is this being expressed? And we also have, we have a number of demographic trends; people getting married later, having kids later, having fewer children, having student debt.   So if you look at all the divorce rate, look at all of these demographics, we seem to have like a secular shift in the number of renters and the renter households population in the United States overall. And you see that expressed in very high occupancy rates since the crash that are still hanging in the 95, 96 level at the national level, which is very, very high and rent growth that historically if you look at, and I've done this back in 1970, CPI and the rent growth are very, very tightly coordinated. Since the crash, the rent growth has been about cumulatively five to 600 basis points higher than CPI, it is an anomaly so it's not like the normal cycles you can go back to, this is fundamentally different. You can look at the extent that there is new supply coming on, about 300,000 units a year.   It's Class A, kind of an urban core or in places that are sort of urbanizing notes. There's the big opportunity for, I'll call it non-institutional investors, it's been in class B and Class C I would probably say 50 unit to 100 units where there's not a lot of institutional competition. There is a deep need for housing and the price umbrella of the new supply is so big; I mean the new stuff that's coming in is five to $600 a month different that is coming from the masses, sort of majority of the workers and renters can afford and are paying so you're really insulated from new supply pressure. And so again, if you look at the demographics in terms of the demand and job formation is really pretty good and then you look at the fundamentals of supply, it’s very expensive to bring new supply to market. There is a labor shortage, material costs are going up, impact zoning fees are high so you have the kind of the recipe for a great demand-supply balance and multifamily and this severe problem is happening on the coast.   So just talking to your maybe constituency in Texas, right? You can look at the severe problems that are occurring in California with job growth and affordability, there is a significant out-migration from New York, New Jersey, Illinois, and California. They're moving into all of the markets in North Carolina, in Texas, in Arizona, in Nevada and so you have in addition to the tailwind of organic economic growth happening throughout Texas you have relocation; and in a relative business-friendly environment  with a very high level of supply response relative to other parts of the country. So you have a lot of very positive things. So I'm very, very positive on multifamily as a sector, particularly class B and C assets; C is a little tougher because only just until recently you began seeing finally a wage growth at the bottom end of the skill sector, people would traditionally go into a C class asset.   B class asset, in my mind, is a little bit better because there's more income growth there and there's more sort of to work with. C class assets, generally speaking, you make your money on having very low expenses, very low turnover by picking your customers very, very carefully so that you get a community that's going to stay there and can tolerate maybe 2% rent increases, but you really can't push rent five, six, 7% in that group, they just don't have the income. Whereas in class B, you can push rents higher, expect a higher level of turnover because there's a deeper pool of people who can kind of pay the rent. Those strategies, particularly for the non-institutional investor are very attractive. And I really find there's a deep market in terms of demand and I view the economy as in pretty good shape.   There are some pressures; we're late into the cycle here so the biggest issue I see short term is that potential end version of the yield curve. Long-term rates are two- sevenish, they were at three- two and now they are two-seven again, short term rates are at two and a quarter. There's not a lot of room between the 10-year and the overnight rate. The importance of that is, is that if the short term rates go higher, bank lending will pull back, the data has been historical and you're 12 to 18 months from a recession; we're not there yet, but it's a tight rope.    My best guesstimate right now is we probably have another, I think in 2021ish is when it's likely to have a recession. I don't think it's going to be a big one, I think it's going to be kind of a mild one and the reason I think that is we did a big blowout in '09. And if you go back historically, and I'm bouncing around on you a little bit, but if you go back historically, the best analogy is what happened in the 1930s versus post role, World War Two recessions, they're different animals. So I think we're coming off of a big blowout, really a depression we got through very quickly because of great action on the part of the Federal Reserve.  So I do see a recession coming up, but I do think it's going to be a mild one. So really multifamily is best positioned, in my view, to serve right through this recession. And so I think, again, multifamily is a great asset class; its guard a tremendous amount of institutional and investment capital and will continue to. There are other asset classes out there. So office has traditionally been, I would say a big kind of institutional asset class requires tremendous amounts of capital and it's really viewed as a bond alternative. If you think of that as a bond alternative, it's bought largely for cash; if it yields 4- 5%, that's great. Again, we're viewing it relative to bonds and it requires a tremendous amount of capital to keep those assets fresh.  If you're an opportunistic office investor, you really have to take something like a suburban office, which is really beat up to hell and change its fundamental character connected to transit, make it into a canvas, and create a place. Now that has tended to require a tremendous amount of capital in order to play there. So I kind of view office is just really more of an institutional capital play because of all the capital requirements that are required for it. And it's hard for a non-institutional player, in my view, to have success in office unless you are riding off the coattails of a smaller building attached to these other investments; it's just a very hard thing to make work.   Now, the big playing industrial, you know, and I'll slip over to storage in just a second is really kind of what's going on with e-commerce. I mean that's what's driving industrial is the commerce need and really the pullback and retail. So retail is littered with strip malls that we just don't need or it can be repurposed to other uses. So what I do see often is people who are opportunist to be looking for sort of beat up retail assets that are distressed and changing the nature of that asset or for industrial what's driving the market is not knowing so much manufacturing, which really isn't driving space requirements, but it's really ecommerce and those tend to be very large facilities. I mean like 500, 300,000 square feet, a million square feet that are in near population centers to handle the demand. So there's active development pipelines and industrial. Again, it's very hard I think for a non-institutional player to sort of access the action because of the capital requirements that are needed in the industrial.   Self-storage is very much a different place; it is historically owned mostly by small owners and non-institutional players. The capital requirements to get into the sector are, generally speaking, much lower than multifamily or any of the asset classes. Right now, the issue at the moment is that there's been a significant level of development. Self-storage to the sector did incredibly well during the downturn. And the reason it did was that most of the people who have stuff and only about 10, 11% of the population use storage but most of the people who did use it, needed it to store their extra stuff; in a downturn, they didn't stop using it. In fact, in some cases, people use more of it because if they were going through struggles in their homes, downsize in their homes or apartments, they moved their stuff into a self-storage facility.   So the sector did incredibly well in the recession, has attracted a fair amount of capital and now more and more institutional capital is trying to get in. There's been a lot of development that's been going on and so the big issue in self-storage is finding an asset that's not under supply pressure or finding pockets. And then self-storage is a very local kind of asset class but the bottom line is the world is within three to five miles, that's it. Somebody could use somebody across town and it just doesn't matter. It's really that three-mile pocket or like a 10 to 15 minute drive time because people are using storage only to the extent that is near them. So a lot of storage developers basically track new development in multifamily and will plot the deal down close by or they'll look for new home construction and plops something near there.  They will look for pockets where there is less than about seven square feet per person and that's the tools we provide, where you can actually find the pockets of population that are not currently served. It is a good asset class for a non-institutional investor to get in and it does complement very nicely with multifamily because they're a complimentary kind of asset classes. I would say though, that we don't necessarily cover single-family rentals per se, but I would say, again, single family rentals along with, kind of 50 to 150 unit multifamily in self-storage, they're all complements of each other. They were around people who need space to live but don't have the capital to actually get into buying a home. And so I find we kind of track, we cover self-storage, we cover multi-family and we track single-family rentals because I view it as a complementary asset class.   I know a lot of people in that sector; I actually was in that sector myself for a year and I just knew that entire space is very good for, kind of the smaller institutional player and the non-institutional investor. Kind of a long expedition but [18:27unintelligible]   Host: Yeah, I didn't know that you guys have some tools to look at the self-storage demand analysis, which is very interesting so that's a really good explanation. So coming back to multifamily, so what you're saying from what I heard from you is the 2008 crash, the whole crash is equal into 1930s crash and that's a huge crash and we don't expect to see that in the next coming crash, right? Because a lot of people have that short-term memory about 2008 and everybody's like, okay, I'm not buying it. It's going to go down like what 2008 happened, is that correct?  Jeff: I mean, 2008 was an 80-year event. We're not going to see something of that magnitude in our lifetimes. What we're likely to see on a go forward basis, is something akin to the recessions that occurred prior to 2008, 2001 recession, the '91 recession even further back. So these were typical kind of recessions that we're not driven by debt blowouts, but what connotes a depression is that they are fuelled by overleverage in assets classes. A typical recession is where there's inflationary pressures and goods and services, which then lead [20:00unintelligible] kind of cooled by rising interest rates and it's kind of a minor. deleveraging.   So if you want to kind of get deep into this, for anyone who's on this, Ray Dalio, who's the CEO of Bridgewater Associates, has a great video on YouTube, a 30-minute video on how the economic system works. And he pretty much lays out basically the notion of a minor debt cycles, which occur every seven to 10 years and a major debt cycle which occur every 75 to 100 years. We just went through a major kind of blowout so we're unlikely to see a major blowout again in our lifetimes. We'll now do normal minor recessions and so you've got to be forward-looking as opposed to sort of backward-looking.   So with that in mind, right, the debt position of households and businesses are actually in pretty good shape. The issue we have is that the debt position of the federal government is the thing that's a concern. Now, fortunately, and again, I'm taking a bit of a tangent, our debt is denominated in our currency. So the debt really isn't going to be a problem because it can get inflated away. Other countries don't have that luxury and if you're worried about potential inflation, well you want to be in real estate because it basically marks to market on inflation and our debt is denominated in $6.   So paradoxically in a weird kind of way, real estate is very attractive because it's yield relative to current interest rates is high. But even if, God forbid, we had inflation, a recycle that came back, if your debt is denominated in $6, you make money because your debt depreciates and your income goes up nominally because your rents are sitting in nominal dollars. So I would say, real estate is kind of like, it's a win-win. Like if there's no inflation, it's good; if there's lots of inflation it's still good but I wouldn't do it, make sure your debt is in fixed. It's fixed versus I wouldn't go with a floater right now in terms of floating rate, interest rates, that wouldn't be a good idea.  Host: What about floating rates with hedge? I mean some people they say there's a cap on the floating rate. A lot of people do bridge loans or short term loans or they do a hedge.  Jeff: Again, I'd say, a bridge loan is designed because you have a value-enhancing program that you're going to execute. It's usually a  one to two-year bridge loan and for that purpose, it's just fine, right? Because you're going to do something different; you're going to create value, you're going to add cap or you're going to reposition the property so that makes perfect sense. And then you want something that gives you your payments as low as possible while you're executing your value-add.   When you're done with that value-add repositioning, if you choose to hold the asset, that's when you have to think about permanent financing and you don't want to be kind of on a floating rate, IO forever, in that case, because you're not getting the advantage of what might happen in the broader economy. You're basically, maximizing current return but you have an exposure. So I kind of view bridge loans as appropriate in the context of a value-creating program. But outside of it, it's very dangerous, you've got a lot of risks you're taking on.  Host: I'm out of all my short term loan so now I'm on long-term fixed rate loan, all agency loan, which is good but I know a lot of my listeners, have this notion of, hey, let's go do a bridge loan, I mean, it's easy to make deals work under a bridge because you get higher leverage. But there's also a notion of, oh, now we're going to hedge the bets on the interest rate hike by having an edge and there's a cap that they can do.  Jeff: But I would say here, but if the cap came into play, it's a cap per year. Suppose there is a lifetime cap is at a very high level if you have to get out of a bridge loan, what do you have to get into is going to be very unpalatable at the time. So I do think, again if I was giving advice to an investor is to say a bridge loan is great for a specific objective you're trying to accomplish, but it is not a long-term old strategy or if you're doing it, just understand you're going to maximize current income but you are taking on an asset risk that's rather significant. You know, everyone will make their own decisions and if they choose to do that, then they choose to do that but you should be aware of the risks that you're taking and not kid yourself about it.  Host: Yeah. Especially on syndication where we are raising money from private investors and we just have to make sure we communicate that to the investors and that he's okay with that, right?   Jeff: Yeah.   Host: Interesting. So you're talking about yield curve inversion, right? Where the daily yield curve might be higher than the 10 year Treasury, at high level so what is causing that?  Jeff: Well, what you have is an interesting kind of situation here and this is more geopolitical if anything, but it has deep implications for us in real estate if you're trying to understand the demands side. So this is the issue of, again, demand looks great, the economy is expanding, jobs are being formed, unemployment's low, wages are rising, all sounds great. So what happens in these periods of time? Well, normally, you would begin to see inflation; it would kind of rear its head and the Federal Reserve executing its mandate to try to kind of make sure the place doesn't get out of line, would tend to be pushing up rates on a short term basis to quote-unquote cool the economy. But what we're seeing very interestingly is, we're having economic growth, but where's the inflation? You're not seeing inflation really be systemic above a 2% rate. Which is what their stated goal for price stability is and why is that?    Because growth isn't that great in Europe, growth isn't that great in Japan and the trade pressures that the administration is putting on China is basically hurting the Chinese economy, which is why they're at the table in the first place and so there really isn't the system long-term inflationary pressures. So as a result, long term rates, it's your step in the market, the Federal Reserve has no influence really on long-term rates. They set short term rates but long term rates, they can't set directly. They can try to influence it and they did try to influence it in the past by buying up mortgages and other long-term securities but there's a lot of where generationally, and some folks get it simple and don't quite realize it, we're in a demographic period of time where there's a lot of global savings.    And you can look at those global savings, they are going into bonds. And if you look at Europe or Japan, because their economies are actual have declining populations, they're in a saving mode significant significantly. They're not in a consumption mode, they're in a saving mode, and they’ve got a lot of capital to deploy. The interest rates in Germany, for 10-year German government bond, are negative so our 10-year notes, a 2.7, the equivalent of what Italy is paying. So if you're a European investor, do you want to put your money into Italy or the United States? Because that's really the choice so if I had a choice between Italy and the United States, I'm putting money in the United States and so we are attracting a lot of capital on a long-term basis, which is keeping our 10-year rate pretty low. And there's no real evidence of inflation to justify an investor saying, oh my goodness, I need to be compensated for inflation and so I should get out of bonds and other assets that would cause the long-term like [29:24unintelligible]    So if long term rates aren't rising that much and there's not a lot of inflation, the Fed pushed up short term rates to the point where the fourth quarter, when the stock market meltdown was really a function of the market saying, well if the Fed keeps raising short term rates, they will create a yield turn version. And what happens is that short term rates are higher than long term rates. Well, if you're a bank, banks are in the business of lending money, borrowing money on a short term basis and lending money on a long-term basis. Well, if there are not enough margins in there for them to do that, they have costs, they stop lending because they would lose money if they borrowed short and lend long, it's not profitable so they choose not to lend money. Well, what you're talking about there is a contraction of credit in the economy. Well, when credit contracts, guess what? You know though it takes a little bit of time, you get a recession, you'll get a recession tomorrow or within 12 to 18 months you get a recession because there's a contraction of credit and that's worked its way through the system.   So if you think about us as in real estate, we deal in metrics that are rents, occupancies and things like that, our cash flows, those are lagging indicators. So what's happening in the real economy, what's happening in the economy is wage growth, employment. Those are the things that happen in the real economy. I look at the capital markets as a precursor to what's going to happen and then we have an economy which is then a precursor to what's going to happen with real estate operating metrics.   So by paying attention to the capital markets, I tried to keep our clients and our organization two years ahead of what will eventually show up in rents and occupancies and cash flows in real estate properties. So that's why I kind of dwell on the yield curve because if I looked at it, there are five models that we look at in terms of capacity, utilization, wage pressure, and of the five, the one that is, I'll call it the current binding constraint is the yield curve. So it's not the only thing I look at, but it is right now the key thing that I look at.  Host: Yeah. So that's the best explanation on yield curve and how it's going to impact because I wrote so many reports and listened to so many webinars by brokers and all that, but that's the best explanation, I get it completely. So what you're saying is if there's a yield curve, banks stopped lending bridge loan is more dangerous because if you are predicting that's going to happen by 2020 or 2021 and if you are initiating a bridge loan right now which has three year span, you are going to be landing in a spot where you may not have any funding at that time if the banks stopped lending,  Jeff: Right. And also you don't the maturities come up in a crash, right? Because what's going to happen, what happens in a downturn, even if it's a minor recession, is people withdraw from the market in terms of transacting, they don't transact. So what transactions do occur tend to be at a depressed level, not depressed level then it's considered quote-unquote, it's a current market value.   If you have a bank loan or a line of credit is coming due, they are going to revalue your loan devalue based upon an artificially depressed evaluation. And then they're going to say, oops, your loan devalue is a mess so basically they're going to squeeze you out. They're going to force you to add in more equity or to basically liquidate the line. So you do not want to be in a situation where your debt, if you have a five year term, you're going to see through this problem or seven-year term, but your two to three-year term right now, you bear a risk that you're going to have to come for refinancing when there is an artificial kind of re-evaluation of your assets.   And what's great about real estate is it really is a long-term value. That if you can last through a problem and not get squeezed out, generally speaking, you're going to be fine. Particularly in multifamily where the cash flows are much more durable, you may see a dip in occupancy of a few points. Your new leases might transact with lower rent, but you've got a lot of existing cash flow; you can always squeeze back on some of your expenses for six months, you can ride through a problem as long as your debt isn't coming due. That's the main thing, don't be squeezed out in the downturn. So you're dead strategy and multifamily is critical to your survival and value creation.  Host: Absolutely. That's good advice. Coming back to what you call the level of players in the market, right? So if you look at it in the past before coming back, what do you think about the high loan? Because I think in 2015, the lenders have loosened up, giving up more IOs to a lot more people. It is become default to have like three year IO, four year IO. When I started at that time, I know it was hard to get even one year IO and one year IO was sort of attractive because valuable then, but then 2000 was when lenders started opening up the flood gate and now it's like five, six years, seven-year IO kind of thing. What do you think about that? How would that impact [35:19unintelligible]   Jeff: Yeah, from a cash flow perspective, if you have an IO to an interest-only payment and you can get that for five or six years but it's still fixed; so on the conversion, it's a fixed rate kind of conversion, then great, you just got a great deal. You want your IO to be at a fixed rate and you don't want it to be floating. So if you can get a fixed rate IO for a certain number of years and you're guaranteed to convert to an amortizing loan at the NBIO period at a fixed interest rate, well, you kind of got your cake and eat it too, right? Because you got the benefit of not paying down the principal during the IO period, but you didn't expose yourself to the risk of having to go through a negotiation.    So great; if you can get it, go for it, right? I mean, that's fantastic. You guys can put that in your pocket or put that into the property so that you're going to be able to expand your cash flow. It really depends upon who your investors are and what their goals are, whether it's cash now or value appreciation later.   Host: Yeah. Where I was going with that question was a lot of people have justified the deal, doing deals because the numbers with IO, it looks much better now and it looks really good, right? So a lot of investors are coming in, especially at the level where we are right now, where there's a lot of syndicated commercial real estate deals are happening. There are very less sophisticated people who just look at as [37:18unintelligible] cash and cash, you get 8% cash, they just jump on investing in but that 8% could be IO and in the next three years, let's say rent doesn't go up or you have a deep in occupants, it's what you're talking about that 8% and once the IO kicks in, that 8% becomes 3% right? [37:36unintelligible] become negative so your basic concern is the loan. So I think, I don't know, in my perspective, there's a lot of deals happening right now in the past since 2015 with IO, especially at the less sophisticated level right now.  Jeff:  I would say, IO, it should be gravy, it should never be the main dish.  Host: Okay. [38:01crosstalk]   Jeff: If you're expecting the IO to make the deal work, your betting that by the time the amortization kicks in, the rents will have grown high enough to cover the amortization. I haven't run the numbers on that, but that would be the thinking, you have to get comfortable around is okay, what has to happen when amortization starts since that it actually was a good deal. And then say, well, the rents have to grow at 1% a year or 2% a year, 3% or 4% a year so you really need to stress test that assumption. But you know, this is where people take risk and so if you're taking this kind of risk, understand that in a downturn, that's going to be the first people who will basically get shut out.  They can't make their principal, they paid too much and when I had to start amortizing, they couldn't make a go of it. So I view that just as similar as the equivalent of a debt maturity; it's like, okay, if you've got an IO period of two years that you bought the deal on the assumption that in order to get your hurdle, the IO period is what made the hurdle work for you, you're basically are sitting at a two year refi’ and you better understand that what your debt service requirements are when you walk in into that. I know we're spending a lot of time on debt strategy here and I think that's kind of okay because the fundamentals are good, generally speaking. There's not a lot of too much supply so the demand is decent, the supply is decent and your death strategy. So there's one part of this, which is your value added, your value creation strategy; what are you doing to create value for your residents, to make your property more attractive to them and a better living experience so that you'll be at high rents and high occupancy? And that's entirely valid and I think, my view would be in terms of enhancing the resident experience, I think there's a bunch of IOT upgrade packages to existing properties that I think add a lot of security issues that people will pay for, not so much to manage your thermostat, but if you kind of know that your kid can come in and you can see on your phone when your kid came in from school and that they're safe, there's value creation there.  So I think we as owners have to look critically at how are we adding value to the living experience? Not just the four walls, but stickiness, right? Creating stickiness that keeps people kind of in place and so I think there's a whole set of strategies there. The debt strategy used to make sure it's honestly to make sure that you don't get kind of shaken out. That's really my goal as data strategy is not to get shaken out in a downturn. And if you could protect yourself from being shaken out in the downturn, then the fundamentals will basically bail you out. And so as we're talking about IO, which is people reaching to make the deal work when in some cases, I'd rather you focus on what can you do to add value, you can increase the revenues so you didn't have to go that crazy out financially.   Host: Correct.   Jeff: So focus on the value creation part that they had provided the increased rents where you don't have to go five years IO and kind of crazy kind of amortization and you're sort of sitting on a time bomb. So that would be kind of my take is; we're talking about debt, but it's more in the nature of put yourself in a situation where you can ride out a storm.  Host: Yeah, that's awesome, absolutely the right thing. Just make sure you're on a fixed rate loan, and the other thing that is very subtle is even though you're on a fixed rate loan, make sure if you have IO and make sure you have enough buffer when the principle kicks in. Because from my calculation at 80% leverage, you need at least 5% cash on cash buffer and on the 75, it's like 4%, in terms of return; you need to make sure you're still able to service that debt. Let's move on to a bit more different topic. So selecting a marker; so let's say, someone who wants to start in multifamily, multifamily real estate is very local, at the same time, multifamily is an asset class where it's very, very intensive in terms of property management so how would you recommend, how do they select the market?  Jeff: I look at a number, I'll call it very basic kind of fundamentals and it's on our website and in our materials, we only have a four-box model and that attractiveness of the city. And first of all, we come from the perspective of, how is wealth created in this economy? And I would tell you that I believe wealth is created in this economy based upon the force of ideas and the creation of new products and services, which tend to have an intellectual capital component. So where and in which cities are new ideas being formulated into new products and services? We call that intellectual capitals notice strategy. So we want to be in cities and within that, in or adjacent to the parts of major metropolitan areas where there's a concentration of people who are doing work with their heads, primarily.    And then within that context, we use a four-box model. Well, one is first of all, how business friendly is the state within the United States, in the state, at the state level, and at the city level, how friendly is the environment to the formation and creation and continuance of business. Next, we look at how many people are being educated in this area. So it's universities, community colleges, maybe even trade schools, but we're looking for, where is intellectual capital being created? So basically higher education and also, I focused on the quality of the K through 12 school system as well as alternatives for quality education for the port, like charter schools.   A third component is amenities; what kind of amenities and culture is being fostered that will attract and retain folks who are highly creative intellectually? So you're looking for arts and recreation and culture and music and trails and things that sort of like people who are active, healthy and thinking with their mind; where is that in your community or any community?   The fourth box is really the quality of the public-private partnerships. They're going on attempting to foster this environment that makes it conducive for the creation of intellectual work and the attraction and retention of talent, which then powers the growth in a market. Well, we have found, we've done this for the top 40 cities metropolitan areas in the United States is that these cases happen inside metropolitan areas and they don't happen everywhere. it's not uniform, there are clusters of them in any particular metropolitan area and we'd gone actually through the work of mapping those.   Now all of that is you kind of sort your way through that; we do this all across the United States. I track also very clearly domestic migration; you've seen a tremendous amount of domestic migration out of high-cost cities and into cities and states that our score well on these kinds of, all these four attributes. So for Texas; Austin, Dallas, Houston, and to a lesser extent, San Antonio all score well in these areas. And that is where, if you look at where people are moving from and where they're moving to and where businesses, moving from and moving to, that's why, getting a view of the entire country, that's why Orlando, Tampa, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Atlanta, Raleigh, Salt Lake City, are all doing incredibly well because they have a combination of good governance, good weather, which helps.   Plus these other condition where businesses are moving and where talent is moving. Now it's not to say that if you're in a core, we call it global gateway city, these cities aren't going away anytime soon, they are major centers of intellectual capital, but they are in places and in circumstances where you're kind of swimming upstream as a real estate investor and there is an increasing level of political risks associated with that as well. So among the core cities, the top six, and usually you can think of these cities as generally speaking--I'm I on the right track, Jim, with what you wanted to hear?  Host: Yes. Absolutely, go ahead.  Jeff: I could keep going on this [48:41 crosstalk] the core cities are viewed as Boston, New York, Washington, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, and sometimes I'll cross Miami because it operates as a core city. And if you look among those core cities, Boston and Miami are kind of like the best positioned and the other ones less so because of a very high cost and the tax bill and the tax law isn't helping.   So those areas were bleeding people anyway and now they're bleeding more. So Boston is pretty well positioned, Miami is pretty well positioned. But even with Miami, there's significant out-migration from Miami to Orlando and Tampa. So I like Orlando and Tampa in that regard and I know there are certain markets that I think are great markets but there's a lot of supply currently. Dallas is an example in Texas. Houston is how you diversify the economy but there's also a large supply response. So in Houston, I would say you have to be very localized; you want to be in places where there's some traffic congestion and you're very close to places where either the Anderson Medical Center or the energy corridor where people want to be and there's a certain level of stable demand so that's, that's kind of the story of Houston. But there are also other cities, Seattle, Denver, Charlotte, these are great cities; they do have a lot of [50:18unintelligible]  if I was talking to someone in the Midwest, I would say Minneapolis is a really good city because the weather goes against it, but it's a kind of a core, a great market, particularly in the suburbs.   Indianapolis and Columbus; their downtowns are sort of emerging and in creating something because of their good intellectual capital and very low-cost position. So they are kind of like the king of that hill as it were and they're getting benefits of outflow from Chicago. Most of the Chicago outflow is going to Florida or the Carolina's not so much inside the Midwest. So this is the way I think about cities;  you want to be in places and so if you're a smaller investor that says, look, I'm only going to invest wherever I am, I'm going to only invest to the extent that I can drive to it and I'm two hours away. Okay, fine, that's great. Go and look for the locations within your two hour driving radius. Go look for those locations that have these conditions, where is intellectual work happening and some of the best strategies are to be in an area and find that area and then find an area that's low cost to rent adjacent to it.   So even though you have a cost advantage that's within 10 minutes of drive time of intellectual capital note and intellectual capital notes or sound honestly in most of the top 40 US cities, you can find them, they're there. We do this for our clients, but anyone can do it if they do have the time to spend, and again, if you're investing within a two hour radius of where you are physically located, then your job is to get to know your economy, your regional economy and understand where interesting work is getting done. That's where you would tend to spend your time, that's how I think about it.   So when I come back with certain cities that are attractive or certain studies that aren't attractive, it's first looking at the basis and its intellectual capital work and then layering supply conditions on top of that.  Host: So are you saying that an investor in Texas should not go to some of the other cities and look for deals?  Jeff:  I mean understand that when you sort of non-institutional investor go out of your immediate ability to touch the real estate, if you have to get on a plane and you're a non-institutional investor, you are eroding your returns. So what is your competitive advantage as a non-institutional investor? So you have to be very sort of upfront with yourself and I would say your competitive edge as a non-institutional investor is not going to be necessarily a cost of capital because they're going to low cost of capital. It's going to be that you can have more intimate knowledge and you can get to the real estate more closely and you can provide more attention to it than anyone else can, that's your advantage or investing in assets that a large institution would not attempt to invest it, maybe a 50 unit property because they won't want to touch that. It’s a little subscale scale and you can't have a major property management company manage it; it just doesn't work in their strike zone.   So you've got to look for assets that you're not going to have competition from institutional investors and where you can bring a competitive advantage. And if you have to get on a plane to see it and you have to have a third party property manager who you eventually can get to it, where's your competitive advantage?   Host: Yeah, you're absolutely right. A lot of people think that where they are they kind of start finding deals and they start going somewhere else and they become out of state investor, right?   Jeff: [54:35unintelligible] out of state investor, I would say if you're at the point of having a big office and a large staff and a big discretionary fund, then you have the infrastructure to go across geographies, across the United States. If you are someone who doesn't have those advantages, well, play to your strengths; which is, go to places that those investors can't go or won't go and focus on your intense knowledge. The local economies that you can get to within two hour drive time and depending upon the cities in the region you live in, two hours is not slim tickets; focus on where you can add value. I think all of us have to focus on where we are going to add unique value and that's what we should spend our time on.  That is definitely how we, as an organization, decide how we're going to spend our time. And if I can't find a way to add competitive value to create value, I'm just not going to go do that activity because someone else can do it better. I need to focus on what I can do uniquely better that no one else can do or very few people can do. And that is getting, if you're a multifamily investor is being in asset classes that are smaller, that institutional investors and knowing where the nodes are and being in an adjacent place to those nodes with a class B or C asset and focusing on value creation to the resident that makes your property more desirable, more valuable because you don't want to be just a box.   But then you're in a commodity market, you want to create differentiation; either in the living experience, the things that you offered and ideally like IOT upgrades or other sort of a upgrades where people will pay you for these additional services because they add so much value to their lives and that's what you want to focus on.  Host: Awesome advice. Let me ask you one more question before I let you go. So between the primary, secondary and tertiary marker so I think we have to define primary very specifically; primary means, the entire coastal city that gateway cities, right?  Jeff: So the way I define primary, primary i snot a good term. We kind of US international gateway cities so there's seven US international gateway cities. There are primary markets, which are really the top 30 metropolitan areas. And primary in my mind would include places like Dallas and Houston and Austin, they're big markets. Then we have, I would call secondary markets where the economies are not nearly as diversified and then you're getting into smaller and smaller metropolitan areas. That makes sense?  Host: Okay. Yeah, it makes sense. So people go nowadays to look for Yale on the tertiary market, secondary and tertiary markets so do you think that's a good strategy?  Jeff: I've seen people go to Huntsville, Alabama and they've gone to very, very small markets in a search for yield because their investors are looking for current returns. First, is the metropolitan area you're investing in going through a process where it's changing its fundamental character. So if you were able to identify that Denver 15 years ago was going to go from a tertiary market to a solid kind of viewed as a major metropolitan investment-grade market, you made a lot of money because in that transition of the city, it was able to attract in a new group of investors who had a higher willingness to pay.   So one strategy if you're going to a smaller city, is the city in a process of changing its fundamental nature? That's a key issue because if it is, then you're going to basically riding on a trail. And I would say there are some cities like believe it or not, Orlando and Tampa and Phoenix that is changing the fundamental nature of their city to be less volatile and have a broader and more stable kind of basis to their employment. If you're going to a really tiny market, and I again, I've seen an investor go to Huntsville, Alabama and buy an asset next to a NASA facility, well that would mean a lot of sense, right? You have found a very interesting special situation in a very small market with good intellectual capital characteristics.   But the city, let's say Huntsville, I may be doing dishonor to Huntsville, I'm not familiar with what's going on in Huntsville but if the city is not fundamentally changing, it's character, then your issue is that there's not a lot of other people for you to sell to when it comes time to sell. It's the asset is what it is and you are basing your return on what overall capital market conditions are when you decide to sell. And if you never decide to sell, it may be a great cash flow play; I'm not saying it wouldn't be. You need to be kind of honest with yourself; if you're going to a smaller market than you've been in the past, are you going there because you think that the city is changing its fundamental character and will change to have the characteristic of a bigger city and will grow to that bigger city? In which case, I would say it's a very viable strategy, very worthwhile strategy.   If you're going only because you're getting a higher cap rate and that's it and you are taking on a lot of risk and you want to be honest with yourself and not kid yourself.  Host: Also I've seen in the past when the recession hits, the tertiary market is the first one to get hit as well, is that right?  Jeff: Because, the exception of this asset that's near NASA, those economies are not broadly diversified. They are generally the basis that local economy, it's usually one or two industries and there's a greater likelihood that one or two industries will get hit and you will have exposure that you can't get around and there's nobody else for you to rent too. So yeah, it is very clear so you do want to understand what's the basis of the local economy and do you understand what that basis is and are you willing to accept the exposure that comes with your renter pool being dependent on one or two industries?   Yeah, you might pick right and say these one or two industries will not be affected by changes in the broader economy. Okay, but I will say generally speaking, that these other industries in a smaller city will tend to be more focused on manufacturing and extraction, mining, and then some kind of extractive industries, which are generally because the real estate cost is lower. So there's less intellectual capital work being done, it's more extraction or manual or transformation of things and those do tend to get hit pretty hard in a downturn. So I just think you're taking on more risk.  Host: Got It. I don't want to take up too much of your time, I got so many other questions but I have to respect your time.   Jeff: We'll have to set up another time and you may do round two. It's been a pleasure being on your podcast.   Host: Yeah. Do you want to let people know how to reach you or how to subscribe to Yardi?  Jeff: Sure, the easiest way to do is go to www.Yardimetrics.com. That's one word and on that website, you'll see the publications department, you can sign up for stuff, you'll see my contact information if you want to reach out to me personally or any of my team and that's really the best way to kind of get in touch with what we do. And hopefully, this has made some sense to you and I wish you all much success in your investing.  Host: Thank you, Jeff, for being with us. Thank you.  Jeff:  All right. Take care now. Bye. Bye.    

He's a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist. He hosts the biggest conference, Anarchapulco, for anarcho-capitalism. He's The Dollar Vigilante. Originally from Canada, hailing from Mexico. Jeff Berwick   Stefan: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show, Respect The Grind, with Stefan Aarnio. This is the show where we interview people who achieve mastery and freedom through discipline. We interview entrepreneurs, athletes, authors, artists, real estate investors, anyone who has achieved mastery and examined what it took to get there. Today on the show, I have a very special guest out of the norm, Jeff Berwick. He's a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist. He hosts the biggest conference, Anarchapulco, for anarcho-capitalism. He's The Dollar Vigilante. Originally from Canada, hailing from Mexico. Jeff, good to have you on the show today. Respect The Grind, my friend. Jeff: It's a pleasure. Thank you. Stefan: Yeah. I really appreciate having a guest like you on the show, because we normally talk about like business and making money, and real estate. A lot of people listening to this show, they want financial freedom for themselves, and they're trying to make money. They're trying to invest, whatever that means. It's cool to have a guy like you on the show. We had a mutual friend of ours, John Sneisen, on the show a little while ago, and I love talking to guys like you, because we end up talking about the money system. We talk about freedom in the free world, free speech, all this kind of stuff. For the people at home who don't know you, Jeff, can you introduce yourself in your own words? Who are you, and why is this a relevant conversation for us to be speaking? Jeff: Sure. Yeah. Actually, it's a totally relevant conversation that's everything that I talk about. I've been doing that for about nine years now, since 2010, with The Dollar Vigilante, which is a anarcho-capitalist financial newsletter talking about how to free yourself. Not just financially, but in every way possible. Of course, for people that don't understand the word, "anarcho" means anarchy, of course, and that's a Greek word which means "an," without, "archy," ruler. I just believe that no one should have a ruler and no one should be a slave. I don't know why that's controversial at all, but that's the government indoctrination camps that people have had for about 12 years that most people have been forced into. Jeff: Then the capitalist part, a lot of people actually misunderstand that word, too. They think that what you have in the U.S. today is capitalism. There is a small part of capitalism still remaining, and that's why the U.S. is still standing, but it's mostly fascism, and crony capitalism, and what I call crapitalism. Really, when I say "capitalism," I just mean free market. I've been, and completely free market, so no government involvement whatsoever, no taxation, no regulation, no central banks, and no fiat currencies and things like that. I've been doing that for about nine years. Jeff: I also do a podcast called Anarchast. I've been doing that for about seven years, and it's grown quite a bit. It's nothing too huge, but it's actually spawned an entire conference now called Anarchapulco, as you mentioned. It's now the world's premier liberty and freedom event held in Acapulco, Mexico, every year. It's coming up in February 14th to 17th. We're expecting about 3,000 people, because the freedom, the idea of it is actually growing, believe it or not. I've been doing all that stuff for about, as I said, about eight or nine years now. Stefan: That's tremendous, Jeff. People like you, I really got to salute a guy like you, because it's not easy. It's not easy going against the grain. It's not easy speaking out about this stuff. It's not a popular table topic at the Thanksgiving table or the Christmas table. I remember when I was telling my family years ago about the money system at like at Christmas dinner or Thanksgiving dinner. Everybody got up and left. The average person doesn't want to hear about how they are enslaved. They don't want to hear about the money system. I remember years ago when I was 21, 22, I read a book called Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, and that's the capitalist bible. The communists have Karl Marx, Das Kapital, and then the capitalists have Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. It's number two most influential book in the United States. Stefan: Can you explain to the people at home, that's where I've first heard the word "libertarian." What's a libertarian? Because people, we're from Canada, or I'm from Canada, in Winnipeg, today, and people hear "libertarian," and they think libertarian is liberal, because it's L-I-B. They don't know the difference between the two words. What's a libertarian? Jeff: That's interesting you're up there in Winterpeg. I'm originally from what I call Deadmonton, so up in Canada. Stefan: Dude, that's the other Winnipeg. I'm giving that a gong. Bang. Just gonged it up. Deadmonton and Winterpeg. Jeff: Yeah, so the word "libertarian," I actually didn't even really know the word until about 15 years ago. It's become quite popular. It's become fairly popular since Ron Paul ran for president in 2008. Really, what the word means is, well, it's pretty simple word, "libertarianism." What it means is that if you're a libertarian, then you hold as one of your highest principles liberty or freedom. If you truly hold that as one of your highest principles, then you should actually be a anarchist, because an anarchist believes in complete freedom. It believes in the freedom of the individual that no one has the right to enslave and say they own another person. Of course, whenever you have a government, you're just born somewhere, and they go, "Well, you're ours now," especially in the U.S., where every baby born today in the U.S. has a quarter of a million U.S. dollars worth of debt and liabilities overhanging it from the government that it's supposed to pay off. Stefan: My God. Jeff: That's absolutely criminal and absolute tyranny and slavery. That's what we have in every country today, as well as Canada and every other country. A true libertarian truly believes that no one should be ruled or owned by anyone without their permission. Of course, there's a lot of people who don't mind being owned or being slaves. They're called statists, and if they want to do that, that's fine. I have no problem. As a libertarian or as an anarchist, do whatever you want. Just don't aggress against me. The only problem is, when they get these governments going, they always seem to include us and seem to think that, "Well, you are now owned by whichever government in whatever area you're in." I just completely disagree with that. Stefan: Yeah. I saw Jordan Peterson. You're probably familiar with Jordan Peterson, right? Jeff: Yeah. Stefan: I saw Jordan Peterson speak in the summer. He was speaking here in Winnipeg, Winterpeg, at the Burton Cummings Theatre, and he said something interesting that I thought something that I think people need to hear more often. He said, "The human race for most of history has lived under tyranny. We used to have monarchies. We used to have feudalism. For most, most of the human race, we've had tyranny, and for very brief times, we've had democracies or republics, but democracy lasts for about 250 years. Then it turns into a tyranny, usually, and then after that, turns back into a monarchy." Why do you think monarchies and tyrannies have existed throughout history, and why does it always seem to consolidate power like that? Why can't we just stay as a democracy or republic all the time? Jeff: Well, first of all, I'm not so sure about human history. I think most things we're told about history are lies, and so really, anything beyond a couple of hundred years ago, I really have doubts about what really happened. I really don't know what happened, but I don't trust anything that we're told by the media, or the governments, or the schools, which are all sort of the same sort of people running those sort of things, but what I understand happened is, a few hundred years ago, there was things like kings and queens, and they were doing that quite a bit. They were going around doing similar things that governments do today and say, "Hey, you were born here, so now you have to pay us a certain percentage of whatever you make," and that sort of a thing. Jeff: Really, a few hundred years ago, and it sort of seems to have happened in France, which is kind of interesting, because there's a bit of an uprising happening there again right now, is a lot of people said, "This is crazy. Just because you're born, this whole idea of kings and queens is so insane." I love the Monty Python, I think it was in the Holy Grail one, where the king's walking around, and he's like, "I'm your king." They're like, "You're who?" He's like, "I was born of this mother," and everyone's like, "What?" He's like, "I found a sword in the lake, and therefore I'm your king." They're like, "You're crazy," but for whatever reason, people kind of fell in line with that. Jeff: Of course, a lot of these monarchies were really tyrannical, and they would really, if you didn't pay them, they would kill you, that sort of a thing. That's very similar to governments. A few hundred years ago, people kind of woke up from it, and they said, "Well, this is stupid." The people who were in control at the time really realized they're going to lose a lot of power, and so they came up with an absolutely ingenious idea. That ingenious idea was democracy, which is a totally heinous, evil system of mob rule. If you have 51% of people decide that legally they can kill the other 49%, then everything's fine. Jeff: It's absolutely insane and just keeps people battling each other, but it's absolutely ingenious, because they've managed, through the government indoctrination camps, and through the media, the mainstream media, television, propaganda programming, to tell people that, "Oh, when you have a democracy, then you are the one who rules yourself, and you get to rule yourself by voting once every four or five years. You get to tick a box," and then some guy goes somewhere, and he makes decisions about what you're going to have to give up and how much they're going to extort you and things like that, but it's absolutely an ingenious idea. It's worked now for a few hundred years, and people have really fallen for it, but they're starting to wake up to it. That's what we're starting to see across the world, really. Jeff: We're starting to see that in France right now. Again, they're starting to realize, "This is absolutely insane that we have people ruling us without our permission, and taking our money, and things like that." Even Donald Trump, in the U.S., was to an extent an awakening of people going, "This system is horrible. We've got this total political class that is totally ruling us and just totally enslaving us." Jeff: What they thought was, "Well, we have democracy, thank God. We have democracy, so we can elect someone else," so they elected a kind of a bit of an outsider, Donald Trump, who's best friends with the Clintons and has been involved with central banks and with the Bush family for decades. His family's been very involved with the Bush family, so he's been very involved in the political class, but he came in as sort of an outsider, and you kind of see a lot of people saying, "Oh, he's an outsider, so he can fix things." He's not an outsider whatsoever. It's another sort of ruse in the whole democracy game, but really, that's what we've got today. Jeff: Now, what we've got at The Dollar Vigilante, I cover how bankrupt all these nation states are, how the central banks are printing money until we're going to be, hit hyperinflation very soon, so we're very near the end of this sort of system of these big nation states, of these big welfare states, warfare states, Big Brother nanny states, where everything is controlled, and regulated, and extorted, and taxed, and that sort of a thing. It's all going bankrupt right now, so even if people didn't wake up to what I'm talking about, we're still going to go through a massive amount of change in the next few years as all these systems all go down because they're all bankrupt. Stefan: Yeah. Well, there's a ... Man, Jeff, you said a mouthful there, man. I don't even know where to start, but I'm going to try to weigh in on what you said there at the end. Now, I wrote a book here called Hard Times Create Strong Men. I'm holding it up here for the camera for the people at home, and the cycles of history, as I understand it, goes like this. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times. That whole cycle takes about 80 years, and every 80 years, there's a major war, a major crisis, a major reset. 80 years ago was World War II. 80 years before that was American Civil War, and you can trace this back in history. 80 to 100 years, every 80 to 100 years, is a major reset. Now, if you trace that out to the future right now from World War II to now, 2020 is the next "hard times create strong men." Stefan: That's what the book's about is, the men are becoming weak. When men become weak, the backbone of society falls apart. The family falls apart. The churches and the freedom of that falls apart, and what we end up with is some sort of major crisis. Would you say something like that's coming up? Jeff: Oh, absolutely, and I think those cycles are very true. If you just look at anyone who's like a rich kid, so his father most likely worked really hard his entire life and amassed a fairly large fortune, and then the kid comes along, and he's just pampered, and he never does anything. He never learns how to do anything. He never has to learn anything about life, and they usually become idiots, and they actually end up usually wasting or losing most of their money. This is a very natural sort of a cycle that can happen if you're not smart, if, as a father, if you make a lot of money, you don't just give it to your kids. That's absolutely ridiculous. Talk about a really great way to destroy your children, but the big problem with that cycle that you just mentioned that's been going on now for centuries is the government. Jeff: When you get the government involved, it's not just people who are destroying themselves through the cycle of people having to have hard times to get better and actually learn skills and work hard, and then they get soft afterwards, and then their kids get really soft and that sort of thing. That happens all normally, but when you add the government into it, it gets way worse, because then what, that's exactly what we're seeing today in a place like the U.S., which used to be quite capitalist. It has been fully capitalist, really, since its inception. It hasn't been, definitely has not been capitalist since 1913 when they first put in the Federal Reserve and the income tax acts in the same year, which is no coincidence whatsoever. It's been kind of a mix of the socialism, and communism, and fascism since then. Jeff: About what you've seen because of the capitalism, because of the free markets, there was quite a bit of free markets in the U.S. There isn't any more, but there used to be quite a bit. You build up all this wealth, and when you have a government, it always seems to skew to these people going, "Well, now that we have quite a wealthy place, we should be quite giving." Yeah, that's great. Give, but what they're talking about is, the government should steal money from everyone, extort everybody, and then give some of it to some people, which is absolutely heinous, and evil, and destroys everything. Jeff: Even the welfare system destroys the people on welfare, but as I was mentioning, like that whole cycle would happen probably quite normally unless people start to wake up and realize what they're doing, but the fact that we have governments today makes it so much worse, because that's what we're seeing in the U.S. You even see communism is really catching on in the U.S., because you've got all these pampered little kids. They sit there on their MacBook Pro at Starbucks ranting about how evil capitalism is and saying they want communism, and they don't even look up the last 100 years of what communism has brought a lot of places, like the Soviet Union, or Cuba, or Venezuela, and places like that. Jeff: They just, because they're so soft, and they've never really done anything, that's why they call them little snowflakes and things like that, and they become social justice warriors. Really, they're just non-player characters, NPCs, but yeah, the big problem with that whole cycle is government. If we can get government out of the way, then you'd have families destroying themselves over time over and over and not realizing the problems that they keep creating for themselves, but they wouldn't force it all on the rest of us through government. Stefan: Yeah. Wow. I mean, this is some really good stuff, and the snowflake thing, the snowflakism's a reason why I wrote Hard Times, because I had some of these snowflakes in my company. I have a company. I got 13 employees, and these little snowflakes were crying, "Oh, you're mean, and I don't love this. This isn't my dream job, and you make me feel like a piece of shit," and I had people showing up late. Just snowflakism all day, and I said, "Where does this come from? Where does the snowflakism come from?" I started writing this book Hard Times, and it's interesting, because what you said is absolutely true. Stefan: We've had some communist subversion come in from the Cold War into our schools, into our churches, into our militaries, everything, and we got this virus in our brain that thinks that communism is going to save inequality, but in history, communism has never worked. It has never worked once. It ends in massive, massive killing and massive death. There's something like 100 million people slaughtered in the last 100 years with communism. It's something brutal. It's the biggest cause of unnatural death, and every 80 years, we think it's going to work somehow. Somebody somewhere's trying communism. Stefan: As an extension, I've been studying communism, I was watching a show with Stefan Molyneux on Freedomain Radio, and he was talking about how feminism actually spawned out of communism when they started talking about equality, and men and women are equal, and next thing you know, in communist Russia, in 1917, when they switched over to communism, you had all sorts of major problems, where there was one crazy stat was, more babies were aborted than were born. You think about that, it's just a big, crazy, evil system. Why do we get this idea that we think that communism's going to save us from our own poverty? Like why does that idea keep coming in every 80 years into different societies around the world? Jeff: Yeah. That's a good question. I wish I knew the real answer, because it makes no sense. Obviously, these people don't look at actual history. As you pointed out, there's never been one ... It's not like there's been one that really worked out well, and they're like, "Oh, we screwed it up a few times." It's like every single one turns into disaster. It actually makes total sense why, because of human nature. For someone like yourself who's read books by Ayn Rand, you kind of understand the individualist sort of a thing, and that people will always do what's in their best interest. That just makes total and normal sense as human being. When you have this system that comes in and you say, "Okay, the guy at the top decides everything that we're all going to do," you don't keep anything from your work, so that makes it so a lot of people don't really want to work anymore, because why would you work if all the incentives go away to ... Jeff: I don't know about you, but when I do work, it's because I know I'm going to get something from it. I'm not just doing it because for no reason whatsoever. A lot of these people, especially ... Well, what's really happened in the West is that they've really pumped it up in the government indoctrination camps. That's why I say to people, "Get your kids out of the government schools. There's nothing that can be worse than that than having government actually teaching you ... " Not teaching, actually indoctrinating your child for like 12 of its most important years of its building of its sense of self, of its intelligence, of everything. Even Vladimir Lenin, of all people, said, "Give me your child for four years and the seed I plant will never be uprooted." Jeff: It starts a lot there, and then you go home in places like the U.S., or Canada, or a lot of places, and you turn on the television programming, and it's called programming for a reason. You get pro-cops, and pro-presidents, and, "The government saved us today," and turn on the news, which is total fake news. It's just government propaganda, and they're like, "Well, we saved this today," and all that sort of stuff. With the cycles that you're talking about, and we're in the snowflake cycle now of sort of this millennials that have never seen anything hard their whole life. To them, the hard thing they've seen is like when there's a long line at Starbucks or something like that. Stefan: No Wi-Fi on the plane. There's no Wi-Fi on the plane today. Darn. Jeff: Yeah, like that's the hardest times they've seen. Because they've gone through this indoctrination and that they're really, I actually stay away from colleges and universities, because it freaks me out to hang around, like they're all zombies, and they're the stupidest people I've ever met in my life. They're all indoctrinated and programmed. You go there, and half the classes are talking about communism and socialism, so they've got them in this sort of thing, and they're all going out there now. We've seen that ... What's that, there's that U.S. politician, some young girl, is just complete and total moron who's just got selected or elected into Congress. It's called Congress because it's a con game, and it's called the Constitution because that's also a con, and all that sort of stuff. Jeff: You've got those people out there pushing this stuff, and these kids just go out, and they think, they don't know anything better. It's very unfortunate, but that's why it's really important that we continue to push out what we push out, which is more free market stuff. A lot of people do catch on to it. It's not as bad as it seems. The worst place that it really is in the world today is the U.S. They've got everyone ... Not everyone, but most people, they're so indoctrinated, and so brainwashed, and so propagandized, but you go to a lot of other places like Mexico here, and a lot of people are pretty free market. They don't like government and things like that. That's why they make Mexico look so bad on the news. That's on purpose, because it's a lot more free market down here. Stefan: It's amazing. I mean, you moved to Mexico. I have this prediction that Russia right now is a freedom-growing country. They're getting more freedom over there. It's like the 1950s U.S. over there, and then over here, it's like we're a freedom-losing country in Canada and the U.S. It's interesting with, you're talking about the universities being scary. When I get a stack of résumés, and I'm hiring, I throw the ones with degrees in the trash. Yeah, they don't- Jeff: Yeah, me too. Stefan: The people can't think for themselves. I remember I went out with this 18-year-old girl, and she wanted a job, so we went out for lunch, and I said, "Okay, look. What do you want to do?" She goes, "I want to start a social media company." I'm like, "Great. Start it." We're eating lunch. I said, "Great. Start it." She says, "Well, I'm in the business school, and I'm going to get my MBA, and I don't think I can start, because I don't know how," and I said, "Well, go google that. Just start." "Oh, I don't think I know how. I'm not qualified." The school system literally disabled her mind from figuring out how she could just start a social media company. Stefan: I mean, I got some guys running my social media. They're 18, 19 years old, and I just met them at a restaurant. Boom, they're banging out my social media like crazy, doing a great job, but this same girl in the government indoctrination camp, as you say, the universities and the schools, can't think for herself. I also think it's interesting in the colleges and universities right now, the number one read book on economics is Karl Marx. That's just like, that just doesn't make sense. Why don't you tell me a bit, Jeff, why does Karl Marx as the number one economics book not make sense? Jeff: Oh, my God. First of all, he knows nothing about economics. He was a homeless guy who had no money, and he wrote a ... If I was around when he wrote the book, I would have given it a few minutes, or even maybe a few days, maybe even a month or two, of thought, because it sounds really good. Right? Like what is the communist sort of slogan? It is, "Give to-" Stefan: Seize the means of production? Jeff: No, but they have this slogan like, "Someone's needs ... " Stefan: Oh, "To every man's need," or, "To the best of his ability and every man's need," or something like that. Jeff: Something, but basically what it's saying is ... See, that's how stupid it is. I don't even memorize the stupid quote, but basically, it sounds nice. It sounds like, "Yeah, if people can't do things, then you help them." It's like, "Yeah, sounds great," but the way they're talking about is, you have this giant government. They come around. They steal things from people, and they decide who gets your money, essentially, and things like that. Yeah, and it's shocking that ... It's really mostly caught on in the U.S. Like obviously, if you go to the ... You brought up Russia. If you go to Russia, no one wants to read Karl Marx. They'd probably burn that book if they saw it, just because they'd be so angry at it. Jeff: Anyone who's actually lived through communism, a lot of the old Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc, Poland, and a lot of those places, even Germany to an extent, they still remember a lot of that. That's all you need to know about communism is live through it, and you realize it. That's one thing that I always thought that's funny is, you have all these people like Bernie Sanders and all these people, and they're so pro-communism and socialism and all these sort of things. It's like, have you ever even just gone to Venezuela even for a weekend? Because I was there like a year and a half ago, and it was pretty bad. Jeff: I remember being there about 15 years ago, and it was really nice. In fact, you can look up Venezuela back in the '60s and '70s. It looked just as nice as what you see in the videos of the U.S. People got around in nice cars, looking all nice. Everyone's looking good and happy, and they have lots of food and all that sort of stuff, and now it's just a complete and total disaster, so ... Yeah, you have some people still ... It's mostly in the U.S., though, I have to say [inaudible 00:23:04]. Jeff: I meet a lot of people from the U.S., and they say, "Man, this whole world's going to hell." It's like, actually, it's not too bad. Most of the world is pretty good. It's really the U.S. is like, and Canada is almost just as bad now, and when you go to the universities, as you pointed out, and I do the same thing, I have only hired one university graduate ever, and it turned into the biggest disaster I've ever had. He was actually a producer at CNBC, I hired him in 1999 to head up a video department of a internet company I had, and he was a total disaster. He was an MBA, and I had all the, all that stuff, and I ended up having to pay him out like two years' salary to get him to leave, that sort of- Stefan: Oh, my God. Jeff: But yeah, so I just stay away from the universities. As you pointed out, if I ... I've got a number of businesses myself, so if someone's interested in working with us, I'll ask them what they do, and if they go, "Well, I just spent the last eight years in university," I'm like, "Well, you don't make very good decisions, do you? You [inaudible 00:24:00]-" Stefan: Bro, I'm going to give you a gong for that. Boom. I want you to instant replay that for the kids at home. "If you're hanging out in university the last eight years, you don't make very good decisions, do you?" Tell me why that's a bad decision in 2019. Jeff: Well, I'm sure there's probably a couple courses you could take in college that make some sense somehow. I've never seen them, though, but I ... There must be a couple, but the reason that it makes no sense in 2018, 2019, is because we have the internet now, and all information is on the internet. You don't have to pay $100,000 a year to go sit in a room with probably a unionized teacher who's never done anything his whole life, that's why he's a teacher, he doesn't know anything, and sit there with a bunch of other idiots like you, because you don't know anything, they don't know anything, and learn about socialism-type stuff pumped into you. It's a complete and total waste of time. Really, the best- Stefan: You mean it's a virgin sex therapy class, so the guy teaching, it's a virgin, but he's teaching sex therapy to everybody? Jeff: Yeah, that's one good way to put it, but yeah. It's just a waste of time. I think trade schools or something, where if you're going to become a mechanic, so you have to work on cars, so you can't really do that over the internet, I think that makes some sense, but 90-percent-plus of what you go to college for is just a complete and total waste of time that you could just totally learn much better stuff on the internet. It actually just came out, I don't know if you heard this, but Google and Facebook just said that they've removed university education as one of the requirements to work there. I think they're really slow and late to do that, but I think they're starting to realize, it's like, "Man, the people we're getting from the schools are just brainwashed idiots, whereas the young guy who's sitting at home just hacking away, and going on the internet all day, and figuring everything out, those are the kind of guys you want." Stefan: Yeah. I got a policy in my office, and when people come to me and ask for stuff, I say, "Google it, or handle it." Those are the two things, handle it, google it. Google and ... I think it was Google, Apple, Facebook, they don't need degrees anymore. I think that's been going on for some time, but it's an official statement now. Right? That's like super, super official. Jeff, let's go back to collapse of society and things like that. One thing that's common in history, and I've studied it over and over again when these collapses happen, it's usually, the people can't buy bread. The nonsense can keep going on. The ... Stefan: I've got the numbers in my book here, Hard Times, about minimum wage, and minimum wage in 1968, indexed to gold, is 103,000 dollars U.S., so you work at McDonald's, you made one cheeseburger, one hamburger, French fries, Coke, and a milkshake, you made 103 grand in purchasing power back then, indexed to gold. Same guy today making a cheeseburger, hamburger, French fries, well, he has to make 150 items down at McDonald's. They got a crazy menu. Stefan: Same guy at McDonald's makes 13,000 a year, so he's lost 90% of his purchasing power indexed to gold, and this shenanigan with the money system where the banks and the government rob people through inflation every year, and then suddenly, at some point, it keeps going, going, going, going until the average man can't buy bread. That's when the Russian Revolution happens. That's when the French Revolution happens. Why does that pattern keep happening over and over again? Jeff: Well, first, let me just mention that the reason that these jobs have gone so far down in value is because of the central bank. It's because of money printing and inflation, and that's why you pointed out those numbers in inflation terms. You have a lot of people out there today who are like, "We need to raise the minimum wage," which is, what you're saying is, "We need these people who extort us, called the government, to go out with guns and force businesses to pay us more because we can't afford to live." Well, the reason you can't afford to live is because you've had most of your stuff stolen from you by the central bank, and the central bank, by the way, is a tenet of communism, and that's why I say the U.S. is nothing even close to capitalism today. Jeff: Actual communism has already destroyed most of these people. You ask about revolutions, and yeah, it seems that people, this is one thing you can say about anarchy, a lot of people think about anarchy, "Well, if there was not government, it'd just be chaos, and horrible, and everyone would just kill each other." It's actually not true. Your average person, and this relates to your question, your average person just really doesn't want to do too much. They want to have a nice little life. They want to have a family or whatever, or they don't, but they want something nice, and that's about it. They don't want to go out and rock the boat too much. Your average person just does not want to rock the boat, and that's what ... Jeff: That's one of the problems we have today is, we have the statist system, and most people are just too scared to change it, but it appears, at some point, when you finally run out of even just food, and you can't even eat anymore, that's when finally people start to wake up, and stand up, and demand some sort of change. When I say demand, the problem is, they're demanding from the government change. What they should really realize is, the government caused it, the central bank caused it, and just break away from this system and stand up and become their own person and not be a slave to the systems, but yeah, it's unfortunate that your average person, for whatever reason, will wait until they're basically starving before they actually face the real problems in the world. Stefan: It's interesting in history, I think Putin kicked out the central banks. Is that right? Jeff: I'm not sure if Putin did, but the ruble basically collapsed. I don't think they had a central bank, definitely, at the start there. Stefan: Well, I've heard Putin's kicked out the central banks. I think it's interesting is, Hitler did that back in the day. I guess Germany was so poor, and they were so messed up, and they couldn't make their war reparation payments. They just couldn't pay, and that's how World War II started is, a bunch of people, super poor, couldn't pay their payments, boom, world war starts. It's interesting, because somehow, in the system, the political system, they go right versus left, and the right versus the left, and the left versus the right. Really, it's the same kind of thing. Nobody points the finger at the central banks. Stefan: One thing I love about America that still stands is, there's 300 million guns in the States and 300 million people, and they keep that gun amendment in there because they know that tyranny's going to come at some point. They left that in there, and if people can't buy bread, or they're really hungry, that's where those 300 million people with guns are going to rise up. Do you think we're going to see something like that in our lifetimes? Jeff: Yeah, definitely, because the U.S. is going to collapse in the next few years. It's not going to be decades, because it's so bankrupt. We have 22 trillion dollars' worth of debt now, so we're basically ... I said when I started The Dollar Vigilante that the U.S. dollar will collapse by the end of this decade, so we've got about a year left. I think we're pretty close to on track. That's how close we are to the end of this system. Yeah, we're definitely going to see collapses anyway. As far as people in the U.S. having guns, I think all people should have the right to defend themselves, obviously. I don't think anyone should be able to say, "You can't have this," if you're not hurting anyone else, and that's what government does, of course. It's very good. That's the only thing left in the U.S. that is keeping it from being complete and total carnage is that the people still can protect themselves, so the government has to be very careful about how they enslave everyone, but they've done an incredibly good job of enslaving people. Jeff: When you think about how the U.S. started, it started over the Tea Party, where it was a tax from England on tea, and that was it. It wasn't a tax on everything else, income tax, and capital gains tax, and smoking tax, and hotel tax, and food tax, and all this sort of stuff. It was just a little tax on tea, and that started the so-called American Revolution. Now you have people in the U.S. today where you have taxes that are over 50%. It's probably closer to 60 or 70% when you add up all the taxes, because literally every single thing in the U.S. is taxed today, including death. Death has a tax, and so when you die you get taxed. You still don't have people wanting to revolt. It's because, again, people are fairly, if they have a decent life, they don't tend to want to change things too much. You look at the U.S. and your average person, even poor people have a television. They probably even have a car. Even poor people have cars in the U.S. Jeff: That's how much free markets, even the poorest people are still ahead of a lot of other people in the world, and so because of that, they don't really want to have a revolt or anything like that. Plus, they don't even ... Because of all the years of government indoctrination and all the war propaganda about how they're trying to save the world by spreading freedom by bombing the entire world in the War on Terror, war of terror. It's absolutely insane, but your average person just doesn't seem to want to even break out of this system. Jeff: What's going to probably happen is, that system's going to collapse on its own because of all the debt and go into hyperinflation. Then hopefully, and you brought up about how Russia's become much more free market now. That's what happens. The same cycles that you mentioned before when you have countries, they usually start off quite small and poor. Even the U.S. was like that when it first started. Because it had a lot of freedom, it becomes quite rich. Then they get soft because of that and because of government and statism, they start doing socialism and all these sort of things which start to destroy everything. They start putting kids into the government schools and all that, and they get worse and worse until they eventually totally collapse, like the Soviet Union. Once it has a total collapse, then you can actually have free markets again. The U.S. actually, once this collapse happens, and after a few weeks or months, and that's sort of what happened in the Soviet Union as well, it takes a little bit of time, like weeks or months, definitely not years, then you can start to rebuild immediately again with free markets. Jeff: We've seen how the free markets, if you just allow people to be free, you just have to look at places like Hong Kong. That was a fishing village like 200 years ago. Look at it now. I don't know if you've ever been there. It's amazing to even go there. Singapore, even 100 years ago, was a fishing village. It's now one of the most luxurious, wealthy places in the world. Dubai was just desert. They just started doing like low-tax, no-tax sort of stuff, and all of a sudden, there you got like indoor ski parks in the hot, 150-degree desert. Once you have like all this tyranny, it will eventually collapse. Then once it collapses, you have freedom again, and then things take off again. Jeff: Really, that's the whole point of what I do at The Dollar Vigilante is, that's our actual tagline, which is, "Helping you to survive and prosper during and after the dollar collapse," because if you can hold on to some of your assets, and if you can get through this collapse that's coming, we're going to go on to amazing, prosperous times again, but if you have no assets, you'll have to work a lot harder to get back up, but if you have kept some of your assets and things like precious metals or cryptocurrencies, once everyone else gets wiped out, and all the banks close, and the currency becomes worthless, you'll be one of the richest guys around, and then you can start rebuilding the new free market. Stefan: Yeah. There's two cycles that are coming to an end. I wrote about this in my book, Hard Times. One is the 2020, which is that 80-year cycle of war. That's an important one to watch. Hard Times Create Strong Men. Then the other one is the 250-year cycle of democracy. Democracies only last about 250 years, so if the U.S. was born in 1776, it's going to be dead by 2026, so somewhere between 2020 and 2026, we know there's probably going to be an end of democracy, probably usually goes democracy into tyranny, and then tyranny back into monarchy usually is what happens. We'll see something happen. Do you think it's going to go back to tyranny and monarchy, or do you think it's going to go just to open freedom? Jeff: Yeah. A really good question. I don't know how it's going to play out. I could definitely see the tyranny part coming after this. What will likely happen, and probably be Trump will be in, his regime will be in as this collapse happens. As everyone's gets wiped out, as the banks close, as it's complete, way worse than 1929, Great Depression, someone like Trump will become sort of like Hitler-like in that sense, in that he will be the strongman who will lead the country out of this. Because of that, we're going to need more laws, and of course, Trump has been pro-asset, civil forfeitures, having the police just take whatever they want. He even came out recently and said that he's okay if the cops go and just take everyone's guns and then figure out if they did the right thing afterwards and go to court in that afterwards, so no due process and things like that. Yeah, I could totally see that we have this collapse in the next couple years. Jeff: It leads into a very sort of like Nazi Germany like sort of like tyranny type thing, and perhaps war, because the U.S. does have a massive amount of military just sitting there, and of course, if you're desperate, and if you're broke, and if your people are all crying out for something to be done, and of course, what do they always say on the news, the television programming? "Well, it's always Russia. Russia's always messing with us." Russia's not doing anything to the U.S. whatsoever, but they've been putting this into place, and they also mention China a lot. Yeah, they'll probably go into some sort of major war at some point. The key for people like us will be to stay outside of it and let them all go through this, again, if they want to go through this again, which is unbelievable. Jeff: There's lots of stories of people surviving through all of these, World War II, World War I, the Great Depression, and coming out way ahead afterwards, and even surviving quite well through it. A lot of them would go to places like Argentina or whatever for a few years, wait till all the craziness dies down with their assets and things like that. That's really the key, and to me, it's, we can't change everyone else. I wish we could, but we can't. Jeff: Actually, I don't wish I could. That'd be a huge responsibility, to change everyone else, but I wish that they would be a bit more able to see what's going on, but if they can't, really all that's left for us to do is to take care of ourselves and to keep spreading this information the ways that we can do it, but if they're going to go ahead and destroy the whole world with their statism, and their craziness, and their communism, and socialism, and fascism again, then it's really just up to us to survive and prosper through it and then try to be there to help rebuild once they get through doing it all again. Stefan: There's two interesting things that come to mind when you say that. There's the Hitler-Trump connection, which I think is super interesting. There's two things I want to allude to. There's the Hitler-Trump connection, and then there's another one, an Abraham Lincoln and Trump connection. When you look back in history, so if we go back 80 years to World War II, Germany was one of the most advanced civilizations on the planet, probably actually was the most advanced in science and medicine. They were so broke, they were so poor, they were so hungry, they were so messed up that the Nazis became popular, because Hitler was offering them a better life. He said, "Look, here's a better life. We can have a better way." People got behind that, the most sophisticated, probably, society on the planet went into absolute terror at that time. Stefan: I think there's a similar thing going on in the U.S. You've got a huge amount of people on food stamps. People are poor. People are pissed off, so they elect a strong leader. It's not ... It's interesting, like if it wasn't Hitler back in World War II, it probably would have been somebody else leading them, because the people were so poor and so messed up ... I like what Jordan Peterson said in the summary. He said, "You don't have an idea. An idea has you." That idea had Nazi Germany. I think there's a similar idea in the Brexit right now. There's a similar idea in the United States, and then that's the 80-year cycle. Stefan: If you go back 80 years before, you got the Civil War, the American Civil War, and Abraham Lincoln got shot. It's interesting, because Lincoln was a guy that wasn't totally popular with half the country. He got assassinated, and those things are all kind of floating around. You got a Trump, Trump-Hitler-like ruler there. I mean, I actually like Trump, personally, but at the end of the day, there's a sentiment in the country and a feeling around that that's Hitler-like, and then there's also an Abraham Lincoln kind of feeling where do you think he could get assassinated? Jeff: Look, I think it's possible. I think most of those sort of things, they're all actually orchestrated. JFK, for example, I believe that was Lyndon B. Johnson and the CIA who took him out. Ronald Reagan, that was the first Bush, the one who just died, George W. Bush, or sorry, George Bush, who was behind the assassination attempt, so-called assassination attempt, on Ronald Reagan. It's usually like an inside sort of a thing. It's really controlled. It's really theater. They actually keep all these things, including Putin, including little Kim in North Korea. They're all controlled by the same people, and it's just this big theater to keep people just mesmerized and watching their CNN and, "Oh, what did Trump say today," and all that. It's just no different than people in North Korea like, "What did little Kim say today? What are we supposed to do today?" Jeff: That sort of a thing, but anything is possible, but it is pretty tough to assassinate the president, as an outsider, but as an insider, it's not that hard, but they also seem to have some sort of weird like almost like protection around them. Like even George W. Bush, when he was in Iraq and the guy stood up at the media thing, and he was very mad, because Bush had been destroying his country and killing his family and all that sort of stuff, and he threw one shoe, and Bush just did the little dodge and just missed him, and then threw another shoe, and he just ... It's like, I don't know what it is with these people. They're kind of like, I don't know what it is, but it seems like he can't really get to them that way, not physically violent sort of thing. I think the only way we get rid of all of this is for people to wake up and realize that these people don't own you, and start to move away from these systems, and these people just go away and have to get real jobs. Stefan: I think one of the problems with human nature and people, I mean, you were talking about human nature and communism, where human nature doesn't work inside of communism, and then there's also another side of human nature, which is, I think humans have a hero worship, innate hero worship ability where we see someone, we see a leader, and we just want to worship them, and we want them to handle our problems. We want to have a personal Jesus. We want to have somebody we can just give it all to. Somehow, that's going to be the easy button. It'll all be solved, and then we don't have to think or deal with anything. Would you say that's true? Jeff: Oh, absolutely. That's exactly what government, it really is. That's what government always does. You look at every election. They come up there, and they give all these promises. "I'm going to solve this for you. I'm going to solve that." They never solve anything. They're just extorting you and destroying everything in the process, and making everything worse in the process, but yeah. That's absolutely the case is, your average person just won't take responsibility for themselves and just say, "I don't need this person to run this entire country for me. I can run myself," and that sort of a thing. Of course, it gets a little interesting how that would all, we've been in statism now for hundreds of years, so to actually break away from it's going to be difficult. Jeff: That's actually why we're starting up numerous sort of countries across the world now, so we've started Liberland in Europe, which is near Croatia and Serbia, which is a new sort of anarcho-capitalist country that's just being started, and there's some few others working on buying some islands, and we're going to start some totally anarcho-capitalist free sort of places there. We're also seasteading, so we're trying to start up in the ocean, start up our own little, what you call countries. None of them are really like countries, because there's no real government, but it's a place that we're going to start up that it's going to be completely free. Then through that, hopefully we could show the world, because they've never really seen it, what life would be like in a true free market. Jeff: If, all evidence seems to point to when you have a totally free market that it's incredibly good for most people. It just increases the wealth dramatically, as we've seen, as I pointed out, in places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai. Whenever you have a lot of freedom, everything gets a lot more prosperous. The only sort of question a lot of people have is, "What if you have total freedom? What would happen?" We don't really have any good examples for that yet, so we're hoping to start do that in the next couple of years and try to show the world the light that, really, this governmental sort of statism system with central banks, and all these sort of things, are just absolutely terrible. The best thing for all humanity is to get rid of those sort of things and not have a belief in their authority. Stefan: Sounds like a page out of Atlas Shrugged right now. You got all the productive smart people wanting to go start their own country or start their own island. This is, it's just human nature. It's all written down in the book. It's all happened before, and here's a thought, Jeff. I don't know if you thought about this. At some point, there probably was some nice, true freedom in the Wild West, maybe, Wild West America or some place, and then at some point, the people organized themselves. At some point, there's a government. At some point, there's a king. At some point, there's a good king. He dies, and then you got his son, the bad king. Stefan: Do you think we've had freedom in history at some point, like true freedom, and then it just got consolidated into power? Because it seems to me that whether you look at a market like a real estate market, or you look at a Monopoly board, or you look at anything in life with humans, it seems that there's like always a consolidation going on. There's a consolidation at some point where somebody just ends up taking over, and we just end up in that over and over again, and the dominoes fall down at some point. We reset. Do you think we can actually exist as free people, like truly, or do you think someone's going to seize power at some point? Jeff: Well, the thing is, if you have enough people who actually believe that freedom is the way to go, and they want to do that, then no one can seize power, because there's nothing there to seize. You pointed out rightly that over history, it appears that people have always been okay with giving away their power to someone else and hoping this guy takes care of them all, and that never works out for the best, just like communism, it just never works out well. Jeff: Yeah, that's actually been the case over time is that people seem to have always sort of gravitated into these sort of things, but at the same time, when you think about life even today, we actually live in a state of complete anarchy right now. It just so happens that there's a lot of governments on earth which you can just consider to be criminal organizations who are stealing and extorting people, and kidnapping people, and forcing them to do things they don't want to do, but we actually live in a state of anarchy. Jeff: Your average person, actually, every single day of their life, pretty much lives in anarchy. When you're in your home, or you're talking to your friends, or you go to work, that's just anarchy. That's just day-to-day life, and there's no one there telling you what to do, except for a street cop or whatever, a road pirate who might try to extort you if he thinks you're going a little too fast over a arbitrary speed limit or things like that, but generally kind of already live in anarchy. Really, the important thing to understand is that the word "government," what it really means, "govern" is, the word "govern" comes from the Latin [Latin 00:46:24] which means to control, which makes a lot of sense, and the word "ment." Jeff: There's a lot of different sort of where that came from, but I lived here in Mexico, Spanish, [Spanish 00:46:34] is mind, so really, government is mind control. It's controlling people's minds to make them believe that this thing has authority over them and that it's sort of taking care of them as well. This is where we get into Stockholm syndrome and things like that, where people actually begin to really adore their kidnapper, the person who has basically kept them enslaved. I see [inaudible 00:46:56]- Stefan: I wanted to give a gong. At some point, you got to stop for me to give you a gong. I didn't know that "government" meant mind control. It's really interesting, because if you control the information, you control the thoughts, and if you control the thoughts, you control the stories. You control the stories, you control the beliefs. If you control the beliefs, you control reality. It's almost like ... In Hard Times, I talk about we almost live in a 1984 future from George Orwell, and some of it's like Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, which was Orwell's mentor. We got half of our stuff is the American Aldous Huxley Brave New World future with orgies, and synthetic music, and all these women with narrow hips that don't bear children anymore, and we have alphas, and betas, and gammas, and deltas and all that stuff, and epsilons. Stefan: Then the other part of our world is like the 1984 future where there's three gigantic powers that are always at war with each other, and it's like a Stalinist future. What do you think about those two books right now, Jeff, like 1984, Brave New World, and what we got going on right now? Jeff: Yeah. Both those guys, both, I think they went, both went to Oxford or one of those major schools. They hung out with the same people like the Bush crime family and all those, so they hung out with what you could call the elites, or some people call them the Illuminati or whatever words you want to put to these sort of secret societies that mostly sort of are in these schools like Oxford and stuff like that. They were actually good friends, as you pointed out, and it's really amazing that that long ago, what is it, like 60, 70, 80 years ago, they wrote- Stefan: It was 1945- Jeff: ... these books. Stefan: ... I think. It was like right after World War II the books came out. Jeff: Yeah, so I can't do the math. I went to government schools, but 70 years ago, whatever it was, and they've really just roadmapped the exact both ways that we're going. Actually, they're both happening at the same time. The Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, that was a lot of bread and circuses. The people would be too dumbed down, which we're seeing, through fluoridization in the water, through all the government indoctrination camps, through the television programming, all that sort of stuff. People are just watching the Kardashians and all that. Jeff: The sports, so the sports ball games, and that sort of thing, so people, that's what Aldous Huxley was saying is, people would be too dumbed down and too into these things like sports and entertainment to even notice that they're enslaved. That's what we have today, especially in the U.S. Then on the other side, there was Orwell went the other way with a bit more it's like a hard, top-down dictatorship. You can't say anything. Everything's the opposite of what it means in political speak, which is what we have today. You brought up about how there's these certain sectors of the world that always at war. East Oceania's always at war with whatever the other one was. That's what we have today. It's like, who's at war with who? This War on Terror, it's a war on a feeling. It's a war on, it's like terror is a feeling. It's like, "I was terrified when I saw that. We need a war against that." It's like- Stefan: Well, we got the- Jeff: ... "Who are you [inaudible 00:49:47]" Stefan: ... War on Drugs which doesn't work. We got the War on Terror that doesn't work. You got the War on Cancer that doesn't work. You got all these wars. They keep just funneling money into a couple dudes' pockets, and the War on Drugs makes drugs worse. The War on Cancer makes cancer worse. The War on Terror makes terrorism worse. It's pretty scary how those things just simply don't work. Jeff: Yeah, and it's all by design, like the people who really do these things know this is what's going to happen. It's just sad that people keep falling for it, but people are slowly waking up thanks to the internet. Yeah, I even saw like, who's that blonde, fairly not attractive, woman on U.S. TV who's like a really mean, nasty sort of ... Anyway. She just came out, and she just said all these wars are just stupid. They're just like, like we shouldn't be doing them. She was like a total war sort of a person. This just came out. Jeff: People are starting to wake up, but the biggest issue is, they don't know what the answer is, and so that's why they keep going back to what you pointed out, which is this false left-right paradigm, which they tell everyone that's all there is. There's left or right or somewhere in the middle and there's nothing else, but that's a very narrow range of political spectrum. That's basically statism right there, and you can have left or right in statism, but there's a whole other spectrum of just not having governments whatsoever that could really free a lot of people. It's really growing, actually, like when we first started Anarchast, Anarchapulco, Anarchapulco started five years ago. It was 150 people. We're now expecting about 3,000 people. It's doubled every year. Stefan: Wow. Jeff: My show, Anarchast, a lot of people said no one had ever watched the show, but anarchy, that's crazy. They think anarchy is throwing bombs and all this sort of stuff, but it's catching on. People are catching on to a lot of this stuff now, so we're going to see what happens. We're at an amazing time in human history, because all these things are coming to a head all at the same time. All these governments are bankrupt. The central banks are about to go into hyperinflation. Then we have people waking up and starting to realize what's going on, and then you still have all these people in the universities who think that communism's the way out, so they'll probably try to push for that. Jeff: It's just amazing, incredible time, and there's going to be so much change in the next 10 years. I don't think anyone will believe what happens over the next 10 years. I couldn't even imagine what will happen, but I know it's going to be mind-blowing what happens. It's going to be that much change. Stefan: Yeah. It's unbelievable. Now, Jeff, I got to wrap up the show, but I want to ask you a couple questions I ask every guest, because I think they're cool. If you can go back in time to, let's say, 15-year-old Jeff and give yourself a piece of advice, what's a piece of advice you'd give yourself? Jeff: Oh, man. That's a good question. I would say work on yourself. I really just started working on myself over the last couple of years. I'm like 48 years old now, and it's changed my life dramatically. I didn't deal with a lot of my past issues, childhood issues, a lot of the programming that we get from our cult, our culture they call it, but our cult, through our younger years. That still stays in your head. I think if I would have, if I could go back, I'd say, "Buy Bitcoin as soon as you hear about it," and I'd- Stefan: [inaudible 00:52:55]. Jeff: ... say, "Work on yourself," like- Stefan: [inaudible 00:52:57] man. Jeff: I'd probably also say, "Don't go to the bars that much. Don't be having a lot of drunken sex. It's a total waste of time. Try to find a good girlfriend. Try to fix yourself and work on yourself more than anything." That's what I'd tell him. Stefan: Wow. Great answer. Top three books that changed your life. Jeff: A good question again. We talked about G. Edward Griffin earlier. The Creature from Jekyll Island was one of the first books that got me looking into all this stuff that I talk about today. That was a really important to my life. I'd say The Lord of the Rings is, I read it when I was very young. I used to love to read. I was probably like 12 or something. This giant book, it's even bigger than your book there. What I didn't realize about The Lord of the Rings that is interesting, I love the book, and I loved everything about it, and it wasn't until a couple years ago I realized that that ring of power was actually a metaphor for government power. I actually looked- Stefan: Wow. Jeff: ... into it a couple years ago, and J. R. R. Tolkien, who wrote the book, called himself an anarchist, so that entire book was an allegory about the problems caused by government. Those two books are pretty good. I guess the third book that I thought was really interesting, and it's like a pamphlet. You can read it in about two hours. It's called The Market for Liberty. You can actually find it online for free in PDF format, and it shows what the world could be like without government. When I read that book, it just blew my mind, because I'm sure if you even read it, you'd go, you'd be like me, you'd be like, "Wow, I never thought things could work that way or that ... " Jeff: They actually thought about how things would work without government, so there'd be like private security companies. Well, how would that work? Well, there'd be insurance as well, so the insurance companies ... For example, like people go, "Well, how would you put out fires without the government?" Which is kind of funny, because the government rarely puts out fires [inaudible 00:54:34]. Stefan: Fire insurance. Jeff: Yeah. Fire insurance, and then the insurance companies have all this insurance money, and they'll have to pay out a ton if there's a giant fire, so they actually put out fire stuff, and fire stations, and all that kind of stuff so it can all work in the free market. I think that book really, in just such a small amount of time, can really just show how the free market can handle everything. Stefan: Yeah. Well, that's great. I always, people say, "Well, who's going to pay for the roads?" Well, you just tax cars and gasoline. If you got a car and gas- Jeff: Not even tax, right, but like the businesses would own the roads. You would never put up ... Let's say you're Walmart, and you want to put up a Walmart somewhere and there's no road there. You're going to build the road, because you want people to get to your thing. Plus, not to mention there's already all roads. All roads that already exist. I don't know why people think they'll just disappear, but obviously like gas stations would have a giant interest to making sure there was roads, so they would probably do something. The gas stations would all work together and say, "Okay, let's take 10% of all of our money that we make every month and put it into maintaining the roads." Right? It's fairly basic sort of stuff. Stefan: Right. All right. Second last question today, Jeff. What's the one thing that young people need to succeed these days? Let's talk to the snowflakes. Let's talk to the millennials, the guy with the MacBook Pro at Starbucks. What's something you want to say to h

Toby Mathis and Jeff Webb of Anderson Advisors are here to answer all sorts of tax-related questions that focus on everything from applications to forms and QuickBooks. Do you have a tax question? Submit it to Webinar@andersonadvisors.com. Highlights/Topics: Will income earned by lending money to real estate investors reduce Social Security benefits or increase taxes on them? Income vs. earned income; until full retirement age, benefits are reduced; when full retirement age, it doesn't matter what you make How do I get the 20% deduction from Trump's Tax Plan? The 199A Deduction is a 20% deduction on qualified business income, but you need a pass-through entity; QBI 20% deduction vs. 20% of taxable income are compared, and you get whichever is less When you make a contribution out of your own account to your LLC as a member, are you taxed on contributions? No. It’s a contribution to an entity that becomes your capital and money you can take back out tax-free, if you haven't used it to recognize losses What is the best business structure recommended against asset, structure, and personal protection? With any passive activity, use a passive entity - LLC taxed as a partnership/limited partner; whomever has control of entity decides what's distributed What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming Holding LLC and several other LLCs holding real estate in other states? Create one set of books with Wyoming LLC as the primary; do a classified income statement for other states What are the tax forms for 501c3? Use Form 1023 to apply to be an exempt charitable organization; yearly recording forms include 990-N If someone has rentals in their self-directed IRA, how are they impacted as UBIT - does it make a difference on the number/dollar amount? No UBIT, if it's a rental; UBIT is for an active business inside an IRA; passive income is almost always exempt Can I have recourse debt in a 401K or IRA? Can I have non-recourse debt? You can’t have recourse debt, but you can have recourse debt What are my options to re-distribute funds from one LLC in several entities to separate investments? You can always move it from one to another with no tax implication Can I write off costs for rehabbing out of the country? Yes. Worldwide profits; if it's income-producing property, you report it to the United States I lent money to a real estate flipper. She gave me a promissory note, but it wasn’t recorded with the deed of trust. Now, she is in default. Can I foreclose? Document it because you can’t foreclose until you file your secured interest Is there anything I can do to reduce my taxable income? Yes. There are lots of things you can do - make contributions to qualified retirement plans, charities, and C Corp I purchased a new computer that cost less than $2,500. Is that a straight expense in the current tax year or some weird depreciation thing? Section 179 deduction; you can buy up to $1 million and write it all off For all questions/answers discussed, sign up to be a Platinum member to view the replay! Resources U.S. Social Security Administration Trump’s Tax Plan 199A Deduction QuickBooks Tax-Wise Workshop 501c3 Unrelated Business Income Tax (UBIT) 990-T 990-N Section 179 Deduction 1244 Election Kiddie Tax Anderson Advisors Tax and Asset Prevention Event Toby Mathis Anderson Advisors   Full Episode Transcript: Toby: Hey, guys. This is Toby Mathis with Jeff Webb again. Jeff: Good afternoon. Toby: If you don't know, Jeff Webb's a tax manager here, and I am one of the partners. I'm not an accountant but I'm an attorney. Jeff is actually a CPA. This is Tax Tuesdays. If you've never been on Tax Tuesdays before, all we do is answer all sorts of questions. Let me see here whether I've got the right question field up. Look at that. We've got a bunch of people asking questions. Let's see. We'll get to all your questions, making sure you can hear us in the question and answer part. Just say, "Yes, I can hear you loud and clear," to make sure that we're getting through to everybody. If you do that, then we appreciate it. There we go. I'm getting a whole bunch of "loud and clear", "loud and clear", "loud and clear". All right, if you don't know the format if Tax Tuesday, it goes like this. We answer a whole bunch of questions. We answer the questions that people ask via the email that I'll be giving you at the end of the webinar, and we grab a whole bunch of them, and we just start answering them. If we can't answer the question or the question that you ask is too complicated, too specific, too long, then I grab it and kick it off to a staff or we answer it the following week, depending on how cool a question it is. That being kind of the overview, this is where we're at. We're going to go through these and we're going to make sure that we're answering all the questions. Let's see if I can actually make these slides advance. Look at that. That's weird. I didn't even know what that W there is. It's kind of cool. "Will the income I earned by lending my money to my real estate investors reduced my social security benefits or increased my taxes on them?" That's an interesting question. There's, "How do I get a 20% deduction?" I'm picking these literally from people's emails so don't yell at me for the typos. "When you make a contribution funds to your own account to your LLC as a member, are you taxed on contributions that you contribute to an LLC?" "What is the best structure–" and that is the weirdest thing I've ever had. "What is the best structure recommended against asset, structure and personal protection for a Multi-Family Home Investor acquiring and holding rental properties, especially if working–" and I'm going to go through each one of these. "What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming Holding LLC and several other LLCs holding real estate in various other states?" Those are our opening questions. We have a few more. We're going to go through a ton of them, and I'm already getting a bunch of questions on the Q&A portion. We will get to those but, first, we're going to knock these ones out. The first question: "Will the income earned by lending money to real estate investors reduce my Social Security benefits or increase my taxes on them?" The first thing is there's the benefit itself. In this particular question, I looked it up and I believe there were 61, so they're receiving Social Security benefits before they reach the full retirement age. Full retirement age varies between 65 and 67. The reason this is important is because, once you reach that age, it doesn't matter what you make. Until you reach that age, you will have your benefits reduced on what you're receiving. When you're pulling out Social Security early, 50 cents on the dollar once you get over $17,080.Of course, it's indexed for inflation, but it's a little bit over $17,000. I think this year it's $17,080 or something like that. What that means is, if you are lending money, then that would be counted as income. However, if you're under the full retirement age, they only count earned income. The question here is, "Until you're at full retirement age, will the income earned by lending money to real estate investors reduce my Social Security benefits or increase my taxes on them?" The answer is a big, resounding, "No." This will not hurt you in any way. Once you hit full retirement age, now we have to be worried about how much of your social security becomes taxable. When they look at your tax ability of the benefit, now we're looking at all sorts of income, everything that you make, and it's going to push it up. That's the one where it's not that you reduce the benefit but it becomes taxable. Jeff: Fairly quickly, additional income starts making your Social Security benefits taxable. They're never going to be more than–85% of your benefits are never going to be taxable. I'm saying this totally backwards. Toby: What it means is that the most they're ever going to tax your benefits is 85% of them. If you're getting $20,000 of benefit, the most you'll ever pay tax on is $17,000. You'll still get $3,000, tax-free. The sad part is you didn't get, really, a deduction when they took it out the first place. That's the old double tax that you hear about with Social Security. Anything else you want jumped into? This is kind of stuff. It makes your brain go numb so you're doing it right. You're actually asking good questions. Jeff: Just the matter of when you should take Social Security is such a huge question. Toby: Because you can start taking it. When is the earliest, is it 64? Jeff: I'm going to say 62, but maybe it's earlier depending on their age. Toby: It does depend on their age. There is a before-a-threshold and after-a-threshold. Now, I forget what the threshold is. What you do is you go to the Social Security Administration and you run your scenarios and they'll give them all to you, or you can contact us. We have folks we could send you out to that have software because it is complicated. Depending on what month you were born in and all that stuff, how many days–all of this gets factored in as to what's the earliest you could start receiving benefits. Once you start receiving the benefit, they let you receive that benefit only so long as your income is low and it's your earned income. If you're trying to get the benefit when you're 62 and you make too much money, you're going to lose a bunch of the benefits. If you start making–if you're 62, start pulling out the benefit and you have passive income, not that big of a deal; it doesn't reduce it so that's really cool. Enough of that. It makes my head hurt, Social Security. Do not rely on Social Security. There, I said it. Yeah, Social Security is one of those things that, when it was set up, the average life expectancy of people on Social Security was two years. It was really there to catch you if you're really old and didn't have any other benefits. Now, we use it almost like it's a retirement plan that's not what it was intended for. That's why it doesn't work to do it. Here's the next one. "How do I get the 20% deduction from Trump's Tax Plan?" First off, it's not Trump's Tax Plan. It's the Tax Cut and Jobs Act and it was passed by our wonderful Congress because, technically–though, they seem to forget this–Presidents don't write laws. Now that we got that out of the way, they did put this thing called a 199A Deduction, which is a 20% deduction on qualified business income from pass-through entities. Follow me here. The first thing we need to have–and I'm going to write these up–is we need to have a pass-through entity, and you can be an LLC taxed as–this is a 1065 that's partnership, a sole proprietor or as an S Corp. Those are your choices. Technically, it could also be a trust. Then, you look at other entities, S Corps and just flat out partnerships, including limited partnerships, all that fun stuff. It's passing through; it doesn't pay its own tax. Then, you need qualified business income. I'm just going to call it QBI, which just means income. Generally speaking, it's active income, but they also include real estate, if you are making money on real estate in which you participate in some fashion. The only type of real estate that's not included as far as we can tell–because they're still giving us regulations on it, but the proposed regulations make clear that real estate, rental real estates included, is if you have a commercial building and triple-net leases that you're giving out where you're not really taking on much of the risk, then they're not going to let you have the qualified business income. Then, they compare that qualified business income 20% deduction versus 20% of your taxable income, whichever is less. Why is this important? Because if I'm a sole proprietor–let's say I have $50,000 that I'm making–that I would get a $10,000-deduction under the QBI. Let's say that I take and contribute into my retirement plan–a husband-and-wife sole proprietor is still the same thing, and they both put in–what's a good number–let's just say $10,000. Then, my taxable income is actually $40,000 because I rode off–I made tax-deductible contributions into my IRA of $10,000 so I would take the lesser of that. Then, they do this wonderful thing, is they then say, "Well, if it's a special service company, we're going to put a cap on how much QBI you can actually make." It's not really QBI; it's actually your taxable income, and they say, "We'll only let you ride off so long as your taxable income is below a threshold." If you're single, that threshold is $157,500, and there's a phase-out for the next $50,000. To make your head spin, it goes from $157,000 to $207,500. That's the easiest way to look at it. If you're married, filing jointly, those numbers are $315,000 to $415,000. Jeff: What's an example of a special service? Toby: Special services are something that it is you and your skill that makes the money, and they use–it's going to be doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, real estate agents who are solo, somebody who–it's their skill so like a carpenter who doesn't have a bunch of staff. That's going to be a special service. If you get above those thresholds, you are done. Somebody's asking a question which is pretty interesting. A single-member LLC counts. You have a flow under you so that's when you're sole proprietor or just going under your tax return that's passed through entity so you're fine. The interesting here is that you can control your taxable income. Even on those thresholds–and when we teach this in the class, we actually go through a learning chart where we say, "If this, then this. If this, then this." If you're a special service, we just need to make sure that we can control your income, and the way you control your income is by splitting it with tax-free, tax-exempt or separately-taxable entities. Let me give you an example. If I have a C Corp and it makes a bunch of money, great, that's not income to me. I don't want to pay myself a whole bunch of money and make whatever my other business is that is or where I'm going to meet the threshold taxable because I'm losing that 20% deduction. Let's say I have $200,000 coming in. As an individual, I can get some donations and deductions into a retirement plan and I get myself underneath that $157,000 and I have another $200,000 in C Corp that I pay myself. If I leave the $157,000 as is and I don't take any money out of the C Corp, I'm going to get a 30-something thousand dollar deduction. It's just going to come off the top. It's a 20% deduction so almost like I spent. If I took the money out of the C Corp–and, by the way, that C Corp is a flat 21% tax rate now so it's going to pay 21% so it's not horrific. If I paid myself that money, I push my taxable income over the threshold, now I get 0 deduction on my qualified business income. That's why it's important. If it is not a special service, then those thresholds trigger something else. It takes us to an area where we can write off up to 50% of the W2 income or 25% of the W2 income for the business plus 2.5% of the assets. Jeff: No, you're right. I'm just jumping ahead of you. Toby: Yeah, so what we're looking at, then, is you better have a regular business that actually has salaries. If you, for example, as a sole proprietor, single, are making–what would be a good example–$200,000 and you're over the threshold, you're phasing out, you'd have to go to the second test. You're over the 157 and the second test is now pushing you at 50% of W2 wages, and you have zero so your deduction is going to be zero. You're going to get literally nothing. You might get a few dollars because you're not quite at the 207, which is the top line of the actual phase-out so you'd be phased out about 90% plus of the benefit. Now, let's say you converted that sole proprietorship to an S Corp and, instead, you paid yourself a salary, so same situation, $200,000. Let's say I paid you $75,000 of salary. Then, the QBI or the monies that's flowing through is actually the net income and net profit, so you'd subtract the 75 off. It would be $125,000. You compare 20% of that number, which I should grab the calculator, whatever that number is. Jeff: It'd be 25,000. Toby: Yeah, 25,000, and we would compare it to one-half of the W2 income, which would be 37,500. You'd get the lesser of the two. You'd get a $25,000-deduction just because of the type of entity. That's the one I have to do. Somebody just said, "I have almost 300K in real estate and other income. Is there anything I can do?" A single person? Yeah, there's something you can do because, remember, it depends on whether you're special service and then it depends on the business, and there's one last thing: It always comes down to your taxable income. "What other ways can I use to control my taxable income?" The most obvious is I split it with a C Corp, I give it to charity–and it could be my charity–or I deduct it by putting it into a tax-deferred retirement plan. For example, same situation, I'll use the $200,000 and they do a 401K. They put a husband and wife each–they're under 50. They each contribute 18,500–or, actually, the example I used was a single person so I would have to say I put 18,500 and in, and they get a 25% deduction on the 75,000. They would put in–again, I'm using crazy numbers so what would that be? About $18,750 or whatever that is–around under $19,000. I can put, in essence, about $37,000 right into the 401K, and that reduces my taxable income. The taxable income goes from 200 down to almost the threshold, and now I don't have to worry about it. It makes my life so much easier. I'm just going to get a nice big, fat deduction and I'm happy as a clam. That's how this stuff works, but if you don't do it before the year ends, you're toast. This is going to be my–this is why you need to have some sort of somebody doing tax planning. How do I get the 20% deduction from the new tax act? Very deliberately. You make sure that you have the income flowing under your return and then you make sure that, if there's a disqualifying factor that would cause you to lose it, that you look and say, "What's better? To just walk away from it and not worry about it or would I be better to take a couple of actions to allow myself to take advantage of the deduction?" It's a freebie, guys. If I make $20,000 in real estate, that rental real estate–that's my net after all my depreciation–I get a $4,000-deduction. I'm only recognizing 16,000 under this taxable income so that's a nice little benefit especially if I'm a high-income person so that's what I'd be looking at. Jeff, do you want to do this one because I'm […] barding the answers again? Jeff: No, that's alright. "When you make a contribution out of your own account to your LLC as a member, are you taxed on contributions that you contribute to the LLC?" No, actually, you're not. That is a contribution to an entity that becomes your capital, your owner's equity–we can call it a lot of things–your owner's capital in that company. That's actually money that you can take back out also tax-free assuming that you haven't used it up to recognize losses or maybe other things like that. Toby: We get that a lot. I'll give you a real-life example. Some guys were doing a syndication on apartment buildings and they were telling people, "Hey, we're going to return your capital out of the profits and you're not going to have to pay any tax on the money that you receive up to your investment." I said, "Hey, that's not really the case." Here's how it works: I can always get back my contribution, and it's tax-neutral; it means nothing. If the company makes zero, no profit, it can always give me back my money and I pay no tax, but if the company makes money, I'm taxed on my portion of that gain no matter what even if they're giving me extra. I was like–what they were doing was they were saying, "Here's a little thing. We'll make some profit. We'll just give you your money back. You want to pay tax on it?" I was like, "No, that's not how it works. You actually have to pay tax on the profit in proportion to your ownership, and it's a little bit funky." Jeff: This is a case that, sometimes, we see where a client will tell us, "I had deposits of $100,000 into my business," and what they fail to tell us is that 50,000 of it was their own money. We want to make sure that we're able to differentiate what the owners are putting into the company versus what income they're making in the company. Toby: There's a couple of questions. Somebody says, "My head is spinning." We do record this. If you're platinum, you're going to get a recording of it in your little platinum area. Somebody asks, "Is this pre-recorded?" No, it's not. We're doing it live but I'm answering the questions that people have emailed me first and, yes, we have about 50 questions that are in the queue that we're going to go through here in a second. Jeff: We don't have a three-second delay or anything? Toby: No, I don't think so. I could give you a 10-second delay. All right, "What is the best business structure recommended against asset, structure and personal protection?" I don't know what that means. I'm going to assume they mean to protect the business–for a Multi-Family Home Investor acquiring and holding rental properties, especially if working as a team member with other investors? Here's what I'm going to say: Anytime you have a passive activity–that is, when you buy the property or the cash flow and the appreciation–you're going to want to use a passive entity, meaning an LLC taxed as a partnership or a limited partner. Don't do anything else. That's it. There's maybe some really weird exceptions but I'm going to say, 99% of the time, you're going to end up using an LLC, and it's either going to be disregarded even if you have other people in or it's going to be a partnership. If anybody does anything differently, they're doing some weird stuff. If you have other investors, then it depends on your relationship with those investors. I'm not going to going to get into securities, Reg Ds and all that but, generally speaking, you're going to have it taxed as a partnership, but the most important consideration is always going to be control, who has control of that entity, because that's who decides what's distributed. That partnership agreement or the operating agreement of the LLC is really going to be important. You do not want to do this stuff half-arsed. You want to make sure that you're actually really addressing this stuff. At Anderson, we tend to be very protective of the manager, meaning we want you to have control. If it's your project, we don't want people to force you to do stuff and, on the flip side, if you're investing and you're a client, we're always going to say, "You don't want to be forced to kick in more capital against your will." Those are the things we always look at. Where does that one go? Here we go. "What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming–" and this is going to be so you, Jeff, because Jeff loves QuickBooks. "What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming Holding LLC with several other LLCs holding real estate in various other states?" I'm going to draw this. There's my Wyoming LLC. It's either going to be a 1065 or disregarded, and it holds all these cute little LLCs in other states. Let's say this is Texas LLC, Washington LLC, Nevada LLC, Georgia LLC, and they're all going to flow up to that Wyoming. I want to keep my books straight because, if you know QuickBooks, they will sell you QuickBooks for this one, this one and this one. You'll end up with four sets of QuickBooks and you'll drive yourself crazy. What do you do, Jeff? Jeff: Here's what we like to do: We like to create one set of books with the Wyoming LLC at the top being the primary set of books. Then, what we do is what we call a classified income statement where each of these four LLCs below the Georgia, Nevada, Washington and Texas where they're all kind of their own set of books within your Wyoming LLC books. All this income is going to flow from those bottom four up to the top one anyway and, while we need to keep the entities separate so we can report them that way, ultimately, what we're reporting is what's coming through the whole kit and caboodle. Toby: Yeah, we only need to worry about setting up QuickBooks for this guy right here, and then we set up these guys as classes. All that means is we have one set of books. Jeff: Yeah. You can still pull an income statement for your Georgia LLC or your Texas LLC to see what's just in that but, all in all, you still have one set of books. It makes it easier and you don't have all these inter-company transfers that you have to track. Toby: Oh my god. I'll tell you, we're horrible on that. He's giving me the look. See, here's the problem, is if you have different companies with different sets of books, you've got to close out the previous sets of books and then open up the new company. It's a process and it takes a few minutes and it's really annoying when you're trying to enter stuff into it. It's going to save you a whole bunch of time to use one set. Jeff: Yeah, then you don't run into things like, "Well, I transferred money from Georgia, the taxes that I did it, I record it in both companies." When you record them on one, you end up re-recording it in both. Toby: Yeah, and there's some fun stuff. Some of them just ask for a basic QuickBooks question, jump in the line. It's hard to set up classes in QuickBooks, not horribly, but if you don’t want to learn–QuickBooks is one of those things where you're going to spend some time with it. You just have a bookkeeper do it. Anderson does that if you want. All right. If you have questions–you guys, I know you do because there's a ton of them already in the little queue here. Here's how it works: If you want to ask a more detailed question, if you have a question that you didn't hear answered on the webinar, you can just email them on in to webinar@andersonadvisors.com, and, that way, we can put it in that queue and we can answer it just like we just did. We're going to break those out. Those will be separate little videos, each one of those, so that you get your answer. Somebody was saying, "My head was spinning about 199A." You can go back and listen to that. Better yet, you can come to some of our other webinars or come, actually, to the Tax-Wise Workshop and we go through this stuff. Spend some time with us. If you invest a little bit of time in taxes, it will pay off in spades. Other questions–some people just answered this stuff. "Can you go over the tax forms for 501c3? Jeff: There's a couple of forms for the 501c3. To apply the BF 5O1c3, there's what's called the Form 1023. It's the application to be an exempt charitable organization. Then, there's several different yearly recording forms. The 990 is the primary one where you report, among other things, what your income was, what your balance sheet looks like, your plan, your purpose, who you've dealt with. What were you going to say? Come on. Toby: Basically, if you're making less than $50,000 in your 501c3, you're doing a 990 post-note card. You're just doing a real basic here. Literally, it looks like a postcard. Jeff: They don't do that anymore. Toby: I thought they're still– Jeff: All these old people still call it postcards, but it's a… Toby: They do that in the 10… Jeff: But it's a 990N and it's filed electronically. Toby: Yeah, I know but it's the same thing. Jeff: It's still close. Okay. Toby: It's a postcard. Oh, my god. Yeah, you do it electronically now but it's really simple. You go above that, then you're going to be filing a little more detail. You get about 250, you're filing very detailed. Never do it yourself. Just hire an accountant to do it, and those guys–we do them. They're not horrifically complicated unless you have a huge void that everybody's taking money. You go American Red Cross, you can go look at the actual tax forms that everybody files because they're all public record. You can go in there and take a look at anybody and see just how complicated it is. What you'll realize is that the more the stuff they're doing, the more complicated it gets, and not doing ton it is pretty simple. We have ones that are $5 million non-profits and it's a few pages. Then, you have ones that are $1 million but they've got everybody and their mother with their hands in the thing, and you're doing a lot of reporting. That one might be more complicated. If you're a church, you don't file anything. If you're religious and you're a religious organization, you don't file anything; you file zero tax forms. Jeff: When you have an accountant do these 990s for you, they're going to ask you a lot of questions because there's a lot of questions on the form that they don't have the answer to, basically about what it is the non-profit does and things like that. Toby: All right. "If someone has rentals in their–" basically, again, if you have those tax forms, this is one other thing, is that's the tax compliance on an annual basis. If you're setting up a 501c3, you are doing–more than likely, 501c3 is an application called a 1023. If you're doing a 501C6 or some of these others, that's a 1024. Jeff: Wow, I'm impressed. Toby: Yeah, sorry. It's stuck in my head. Those are the applications for exempt status. Your business, your non-profit, is in existence and it's considered exempt from Day 1. Even though you haven't gotten your exemption approved, you actually have 28 or 29 months to get approved, and it relates back to the day that you started. You can actually do a 501c3 and be up and running in a matter of weeks if you want to. All right, from Lisa: "If someone has rentals in their self-directed IRA, how is it impacted as far as unrelated business income tax (UBIT) and does it make a difference on the number or dollar amount?" You want to do this one or would you like me to? Jeff: Why don't you do this one? Toby: All right. Self-directed IRA and it has real estate? You have no UBIT if it's just rental. That's not unrelated business income tax. Unrelated business income tax is when you're doing an active business inside an exempt organization, inside an IRA, or church, or something else, and you're running a mini-mart then they tax you on it because it's unrelated business income so not related to your exempt purpose so they tax you on it. Passive income's always going to be–I shouldn't say "always"; it's almost always exempt. I guess there's possible–if you have some royalty stuff, it's possible, if you're advertising, that the exempt organization tax, but for your IRA for rentals, don't worry about it. Here's what you worry about when you're doing an IRA with rentals: It's usually the case–this is what we've seen–is that people will oftentimes want to lever that real estate. In an IRA, you have something called–I'm just going to blank on it–unrelated debt financed income. There we go, UDFI. Unrelated debt financed income means–or just call it debt finance income–the portion of the profits that are coming from the debt. If I have a piece of property, I have a 50% loan on it, then 50% of its income is going to be taxable to the IRA. It's not allowed to have that type of loan and not pay tax on it. A 401K is allowed to have that type of loan, and it doesn't pay tax on it. It's one of those weird things where you're like, "Hey, should I be an IRA or 401K?" More often than not in our world, you're going to want to be the 401K. It has different rules, and one of the big ones is the ability to use debt. Now, here's something for you. I think I had poll questions on this. This is fun. I'm going to send a poll out to see whether you guys are listening. You guys can answer this, and what it is, "Can I have recourse debt in a 401K or IRA?" Let's see about that. Isn't this kind of cool? Jeff: It is cool. Toby: We're going to see whether or not you can have recourse debt in a 401K or IRA. For those of you who don't know what recourse debt, recourse means, "I can go after you. I have recourse, and I can go–" basically, a personal guarantee, personal guarantor. We got a lot of people voting. I will share the results with you once we're there. Jeff: What if Lisa is flipping instead of renting in an IRA? Toby: Then, we don't have any cases on it. Jeff: Great. Toby: What we always say is do five at a max. Here's the thing: If you disqualify an IRA, the whole thing's disqualified. What I want to do is if I'm flipping in a self-directed IRA, I want to make sure only that money is in that IRA so if I have a disqualifying event, it's only for that one little IRA. So, I may have two or three IRAs. Good news: People are listening. That's always good news. We have about–50% of you guys voted. I'm going to go ahead and close this thing in about a few seconds. Let's see. There, I closed it and now I'm going to share it with you. Do you want me to tell you the answer? You cannot have recourse debt. 36% of you guys just disqualified your plans, and you have a 10% penalty plus it's all taxable. Sorry to say that you just destroyed your plan, but you cannot have recourse. This is half the fun. What's the next question I could ask you? I could throw up another poll at you. Let's see. Get out of there. Let me see if I can do this. All right, what's the next one? Here's a better one: Now that you know you can't have recourse debt, I'm going to launch a new poll. "Can I have non-recourse debt in an IRA or 401K?" This is where accountants and tax lawyers have– Jeff: Disagreements? Toby: No, this is where it's so much fun. Are you kidding? Let's see. Somebody's saying, "No." What is non-recourse? Non-recourse means you can't hold the person responsible. There's no personal guarantor. You can only go after the property so the property is truly asset-based lending. There's nobody on the hook for that loan if it goes south. A typical non-recourse loan in a plan–this is kind of cheap because it's going to give you the answer–is they're going to look at the other plan assets and so they're going to secure the other plan assets. They're going to make sure that they're not over-leveraged. In other words, they're not going to give you a 99% loan to value; they're going to give you a 60% loan to value or 50% loan to value. We'll see if you guys still get the answer even though I just basically gave it to you. This is fun. I'm just going to stop this one and I'm going to share it because the numbers are pretty done. It looks like 86% of you said, "Yes." Can I have non-recourse debt? 86% of you are correct. You can have recourse debt. Here's the trick: In an IRA, that non-recourse debt creates debt finance income so you have to pay tax on the portion that you're making but it doesn't disqualify your plan. In a 401K, you do not pay the debt finance income, and some of you guys are not too pleased with me for that, but I'm getting giggles out of it. That's enough with polls. I could have polls all day long and we would have a lot of fun. Last one: "I hold some assets in LLC–"and, by the way, this is the last one from people that have shot it in but it says, "You don't pay tax until withdrawal, correct?" No, if you have debt finance income, you're paying it in the year in which the debt finance income–you actually file a 990 T. You actually have to report it. "I have some assets in an LLC that is a day-trading entity." You're brave. "If this generates sizable profits–" I just love traders. "What options are out there to re-distribute funds from one LLC in several entities to the separate investments?" You can always move–if it's yours, it's like–an LLC is a safe so I can always move it from one safe to another, no tax implication. This is one of the questions we had earlier. I can always put money in, take it out. Somebody was talking about an opportunity zone. The opportunity zone's awesome. It's where you take capital gains and invest them in the opportunity zone. It's actually called the growth opportunity zone, and you defer the tax on that income. The max amount you can defer that tax is until 2025 right now. Then, you get a portion of that as non-taxable. Then, the growth–if you leave it in the opportunity zone for 10 years, all that growth and the gains on the investment itself are tax-free, and that's pretty interesting. Growth opportunities, we'll be talking about that as they give us more information. Somebody says, "Can you take the poll down?" I thought I did. I'll make sure polls, hide. There we go. Sorry about that, guys. Everybody's telling me, "Flip off the poll." I'm flipping it off. I like your opportunity zone discussion, and think about a bank, and loan out funds to other LLCs you use. You could do that. Then, it's interest unless it's all you. In which case, you don't charge yourself interests. "I am told that funds in an LLC are much like funds in a savings account. I pay taxes on the gains my funds make, and funds can be withdrawn at any time." That is true as long as it's disregarded or taxed as a partnership. I want to make sure that we're very clear. LLCs that are partnerships are disregarded. Yes, you can do that. If it's an LLC taxed as a corporation or LLC taxes in S Corp, little bit different. An S Corp probably has a huge difference. Jeff: Yeah. You can even pull securities out–even if it's a partnership–pull securities out and put them somewhere else. Like what Toby's saying, if it's an S Corporation or corporation, if you pull securities out of a corporation, you have to recognize gain immediately. Toby: It sucks. Appreciated assets is considered wages, right? Use an example here. Jeff: We had a client who had a couple of $100,000 of securities in a corporation, wanted to move it somewhere else, and we tried to explain to him that if he pulls securities out that are now worth 250 and he's only got a basis of $100,000, he's going to have capital gains of $125,000 in that corporation. The corporation will pay gains and then, for you to take it out, that's got to come from somewhere else, so either a salary, roan repayments or dividends. It doesn't work out well. Toby: No Bueno. The other one is people that real estate in an S Corp and then they need to take it out to refile it or something. All that appreciation is wages. It's horrific and so we have oftentimes say, "Hey, if you're going to do this S Corp, it's cool." The capital gains still flow down to you; it's just that you can't take it out. You've got to leave it in there. Jeff: Can we  re-running into that more and more where the banks are running to take it out of the LLCs and stuff? Toby: They got horribly hosed during the downturn of people doing weird stuff. What happened is I would do a financing in an entity. Say I'm the owner, and then I would sell Jeff my ownership and the entity and the bank had no idea that I'm no longer the guy that they were dealing with that they gave the loan to in their mind and had sold his interests. They had no idea. One day, Jeff comes back in and says, "By the way, I'm the owner of this LLC, not the guy that you loaned the money to." No Bueno. They don't like that. All right, we got a lot of questions to go through so if you have questions, you can always email them in. I'm going to start going out through these things, and we have questions from almost an hour ago. People were asking questions before we even started. "I did a cash-out refinance from my residence to invest in private lending or to buy rentals. California only allows 150,000 to deduct interest expense for residence." That's actually the new federal rule. "For the portion that is more than 750, can I deduct the interest as investment expense?" All right, so here's the rule–and, Jeff, I'm [...] barding, but I deal with this stuff all the time. Your new limit is–unless you owned your house prior to–during 27 and perhaps during the first quarter of 2018 if your loan was already in process before December 15th of 2017, don't try to remember this stuff; just know that if you're in that weird period, you may qualify, then you're up to a million, but it has to be for acquisition indebtedness. Acquisition indebtedness means, "I bought the house," or, "I improved the house." That's for the mortgage person to be deductible on your Schedule A, which is your itemized deduction. If you're using the money for something else, then it has to be deductible on that something else. For example, if I am buying rental real estate, then the interest–you'd be writing off the interest on your Schedule A, essentially, against the income from that rental real estate. You are no longer writing off your mortgage interest personally as the individual residing in it; you are now writing it off as part of an investment. Anything you wanted to add on that? Jeff: No. If we're talking about buying a piece of investment property like you're just going out and buying more land, hoping that it'll go up in value, then it would be considered investment interests and go back on Schedule A. Typically, we want to keep it–if it's in a business interest or rental property, something like that, we want to keep it there. Toby: Again, the Canadians have been dealing with this for a lot longer than us guys. You cannot write off interest if it's not for your home in Canada unless it was used for an investment. People actually have to go re-file their houses, they get all the cash they could, pay down their house, re-file it so they could show that they used it for an investment so they could actually write off the interest. I think it was called Scotts transactions. It's weird. Hey, I'm not Canadian. This is another question: "Say I deducted a newsletter subscription in 2017 but received a refund for it in 2018. Do I need to add this back as income in 2018 or no?" If you wrote it off and it means your basis is zero, give you the money back, what does that sound like? Jeff: Income. Toby: Income. It is income. At the same time, I see people saying, "Hey, what if I reimburse myself from my cell phone out of two companies?" Now, each reimbursement represents–I said, "Well, you can reimburse yourself up to your expense. Anything above that is income so it becomes taxable." Fun stuff. Yes, you would report it, but only–your cash basis tax first. You report it in the year that you received the money back. "You've saved me so much money. I call y'all my friends." I love that when I get stuff like that. That's not really a question but I'm going to repeat it because it's better than, "Flip off the poll." Not that I had too many of those, but I had a few. "Can I write off costs for rehabbing out of the country?" This sounds like something for Jeff. Can you write off? US taxes. Jeff: Yeah, you do have investment in another country. Toby: Worldwide profits, baby. Yes. Jeff: If it's income-producing property, you're going to be reporting that to the United States. Any expenses you have on that property will go towards that also. Toby: If you're rehabbing a property, it sounds like dealer activity and active business. I may be little interest–I probably want to be looking at structures in the Bahamas if that's where it is. I'd be looking at something that's taxable there so you don't get into treaties and all sorts of fun stuff. "Do I have to pay $800 off the top to the franchise tax board when we start our corporation?" Jeff: No, California has an exemption to corporations that are first year only. Toby: Yeah, and that $800–this is, if you like tax cases, there's Veritas 1, there's Veritas 2, there's Northwest Energetic Services, there's Bakersfield Mall, and they're all versus your friendly–what is it called? Not the franchise tax. No, it's whatever. I forget what they're called. Jeff: We know what it's called. Toby: Yeah. Anyway, I'll remember it as soon as I could. I'm trying to think about it, but they keep suing the Board of Equalization, the BoE. It's $800 and they say that's the minimum tax, but they say, really, it's a fee because if it was a tax, then it'd be an unconstitutional tax because it's not attached to the income. They keep trying to call it a fee. They lose and then they change it a little bit and they lose again. That's just an aside. California is kind of evil. "We live in Washington. We have a Nevada C Corp which fully owns a watch and LLC and employs the kids. What are the recommended strategies to optimize for college tuition?" Wow, so you're doing a great thing. You are going to run them through payroll. When you're applying for things like scholarships, if it's going to be based on income, you're going to show that income. You're going to show those returns, but those kids should–most of that income is going to probably be underneath the standard deduction. Right now, it's $12,000. They're going to pay zero and they're going to pay very little on any amount over that. Plus, if you're smart, you're putting some of that money in a Roth IRA and they're never going to pay tax on that. It's smart to do this with your kids. If I paid tuition out of my tax bracket, it's coming out of my highest tax bracket. If I'm in the highest tax bracket, that's 37%. If my kids pay for their tuition and are working for the company, and they have to do something, then they pay at a third tax bracket, which, quite often, is zero. I do this with my own daughter. Last year, I think we paid $500 in taxes total for the year when it cost me $8,000 if I was doing it, but she has to do something. She has to actually work for the company and do stuff for the company. Other stuff you could do to optimize is dump it into–defer it into a retirement plan. If you want to do a 401K, they can put the first 18,500 of their income and they can defer it. You're still reporting it. I'm not sure it'll have an impact on scholarships or not. I have not seen it have much of an impact, but that's what I'd be doing, is the benefits far outweigh anything with this on the scholarship side. It is huge. Here's one: "I lent money to a real estate flipper. She gave me a promissory note, but it was not recorded with the deed of trust. Now, she is in default. Can I foreclose?" When you loan money to a flipper with no deed of trust, that's called a gift. I'm just kidding. You need to make sure that you're documenting it. You cannot foreclose until you actually file your secured interest. You got to have it filed and then, yes, you can actually start foreclosure proceedings if you want, if they don't pay it. You definitely want to make sure that, when you're giving notes–there's something called "first in time, first in right". You want to make sure you know it's recorded and you have your deed of trust against that house. Otherwise, somebody else could go slap theirs on first. There's also places where they get priority. In Nevada, for example, the HoAs get super liens. They actually step in front of the primary lender. It sounds weird but it's true. You want to make sure that you're documenting your loan and covering yourself as best you can, make sure that you're getting a personal guarantee and, if they have any other assets, you may want to slap a lien on those, too. All right, "With a new company, there's quite a lot of expense reimbursements. Since I don't have a lot of revenue yet, I haven't paid it back. Is it okay to carry it over a year or should I go ahead and pay it back even though I'm still in the red?" Jeff, this sounds like you unless you're zoning out there. She has a new company, she has lots of expenses, she doesn't have any money that she's made yet, so should they pay it back, carry it forward? "Can I pay myself, reimburse myself in the future year?" The answer is yes, you could reimburse yourself whenever. The question really becomes, "Do I want to capture all my startup expenses in the first year?" Jeff: Yeah, I think you do. You want to capture as many expenses as possible even if you're not getting directly reimbursed right away. Toby: Yeah, you have two choices whenever you fund a company. You can fund it with your cash and then it's going to have a loss and it's going to carry that loss forward if it's a C Corp. If it's an S Corp, you can actually take that loss. I've contributed $20,000. That's my basis and it loses 20,000 and, technically, I'd have a $20,000-loss with an S Corp. Usually, we're seeing this in C Corps, and you just carry it is a payable and a receivable. It's payable to you, you would say, "Hey, it owes me some money. It's kind of like this." I always use Krispy Kreme in my examples. I go out for Anderson and I bring in 12 dozen Krispy Kreme for a meeting or something, and the others say, "Hey, I'll pay you back but we don't have the money right now." It doesn't mean that it goes away; it means that I'm sitting there, waiting for them to pay me back. If they pay me back in two years, all it means is they can't write that off as a deduction until they pay me back so they're not going to have a loss if I'm carrying it as an IOU. If I give them the money to buy the doughnuts and they buy the doughnuts, they get the loss right away even though they haven't returned my money to me. They could return that money to me at any time. For me, it's always going to be tax-neutral. "Do I need to be on payroll with my real estate income or can I just take distributions from my LLC?" This is regarding Trump's 20% deduction on the plan. If it's investment real estate, you never have to take a seller as long as it's rental real estate. If it's flipping and it's in an S Corp, then you would have to take some salary if you're taking distributions. I don’t want to twist it. This sounds like it's just an LLC with rental property. You do not have to take it. The 20% is for 2018 onwards. If they think that it has a sunset clause, the end of 2025. Is it the end of 2025 that it ends? Jeff: Yeah. Toby: Yeah, so 2025. Here's a really long one. Boy, this is a really long one. Let me see if I can condense this. "I have a Wyoming LLC that is the sole member of a second LLC that is disregarded entity. I funded the Wyoming with 8,500 and the Wyoming funded the other bookkeeping QuickBooks balance sheet shows an owner equity 100% of 16,500. This is offset a balance sheet with capital contribution. While this does end up with net equity of 85, it gives the impression of the equity, which is incorrect. Is there a different way of handling?" Do you see what they're doing? Jeff: This is what we call–anytime you have combined financials or tax returns, you're going to have a–you may have a payable from one to the other where you've lent money to the other company, but when you do the combined financial or tax return, this is what you call an eliminating entry. If you lent $8,500 to one, those two entries are going to offset each other and it's going to be zero on your tax return. Toby: He's looking at it and saying, "Hey, they took the eight that I put into the second and added it to the 8,500 that I put in the first," and it's only 8,500 and then 8 went to the second LLC. Jeff: Yeah, I think you just need to clarify that it was the same money that– Toby: We're doing it and we'll take a look at it. We'll grab that name and, when we can, I'll print this out. "Can SMLLC, single-member LLC, disregard an entity under an MMLLC, which is a multi-member LLC taxed as a partnership, be converted to a single, multi-member LLC taxed as if–" you guys are killing me, "And would the tax changes be implemented?" What you're really saying, Billy, is, "Can I spin off a single-member LLC, make it into a multi-member LLC and change it to an S Corp?" The answer is yes. We just have to make sure that we follow the S Corp rules, which means there's got to be natural persons owning it, resident aliens–if it's somebody from out of the country, that they reside in the United States in certain trusts and even certain single-member LLCs. All right, to the question about–this refers to qualified business income. Sorry for lack of a better–no, Janet, you've already got it. "Since rental real estate is included for the 20%, are you also required to be a rep for that to be true?" No. You automatically get it. "High-tech network engineer, does it qualify as special services?" If you're not a network engineer and it's just you, then I would say probably yes. If you have a company and it's not so much you but your company has its own–like it's lots of people and it's just known, then the answer is no. Then, you're not. Jeff: Yeah, there were some specific carve-outs. I think the architects got a carve-out of this, but there's a few industries that have been specifically exempted from those specialized industries. Toby: I'm not sure but software engineer–I would say that if it's just you, chances are going to be under the special services. "When I file taxes, the taxes for the rental property show up on my tax showing a schedule form that is Schedule E. I almost $300,000 with my real estate and other income as a single woman." I think we already talked about this one. "Is there anything I can do to reduce my taxable income?" Yes, Janet, you can make contributions to qualified retirement plans. You can make contributions to charities, including your own. You can make contributions to C Corp if it has a business relationship. There are lots of things you can do or, if you have anybody that you need to pay salaries to like kids or somebody that's working with you, that would be something else you could do to lower the taxable income. "If you were writing out another slide, it's not showing up on my computer." Sorry, Sir. I think that's where all they go. "What about an IOL as a tax-deferred compensation for my property management income?" That would not work. An IOL is tax-neutral although you can do tax-deferred compensation where it's taxable to the entity and it's not taxable to you under certain circumstances. If I do tax-deferred income like, "Hey, I'm taking deferred compensation," I need to be at a losing. Usually, non-compete is going to be the thing that makes it work. We use these especially in the non-profit world where somebody says, "I don't want to be paid; I want to work, but I do want to get paid eventually for all the work I'm doing now. Rather than pay me this year, pay me when I'm 65 and maybe I wipe it out or not, but as long as I have a non-compete with that–" it's saying, "Hey, basically, if you go work for somebody else in a competing industry, you lose all that deferred compensation." You should be good. "I purchased a new computer that cost less than $2,500. Is that a straight expense in the current tax year or some weird depreciation thing?" Dean, it's called a Section 179 deduction. You can buy up to $1 million, you're good. You can write it all off. Otherwise, that would be depreciated. They also have 100% bonus depreciation, so we're going to catch it no matter what. Bonus depreciation is, if it's less than a 15-year property, you can write it off this year. You're not required to. Somebody says, "Is 199A or that 20% a 20% tax deduction or a 20% reduction?" No, it's a 20% deduction against your qualified business income. The net effect could be much more than 20% depending on your tax bracket. If you're not in a high tax bracket, then the net effect won't be huge. If I'm in the highest tax bracket in a state that's taxing me where I'm at 50%, that 20% deduction could be worth a ton. It could be worth significant amounts especially if I'm in a company that's not a specialized service and I meet the requirements. I could have hundreds and thousands of dollars of qualified business income being exempted, and that could be worth hundreds and thousands of dollars to me from a tax standpoint. We already did this one. Somebody who had their spinning left. You can go in bite-sized pieces, guys. We're going to break these things down, and I understand that we're going through fast, but that's half the fun. We're not dwindling around here. "My self-directed IRA received a K1 for net rental loss for a passive investment of $50,000. Do I need to file a 990 T to show loss? Does the IRA custodian sign the return or can I sign?" Jeff: Here's what happens: If your IRA is a partner in a partnership, that partnership is required to issue a K1 to all of its partners. That doesn't mean you have to do anything with the K1 in your IRA. You're not going to recognize any taxable income until you actually start taking money out of the IRA, especially since this is a rental property we're talking about. Toby: Cool. Hey, this is a really good one. By the way, if you ever do a 990 T and it says self-directed IRA, your custodian does have to sign, and they like to charge you for that. "401K, 401K." "I have a C Corp with accumulated losses and would rather close it than repurpose it. Is there a way to direct the loss of my personal taxes? Is it possible?" The answer is yes. It's called a 1244 election. It should have been made when you issued your stock. If Anderson did your C Corp, we already did that because I do it with every single corporation. You can then write off as a single person up to $50,000 or up to $100,000 if married, filing jointly, and then it could be used to offset even your W2 income. Jeff: Going back to one of the earlier questions, this is one reason we want to start recognizing reimbursements and stuff as early as possible to establish those debts to you early on. Toby: Yeah, I had this happen and we actually had–the one time this was ever audited was because this accountant refused to give him a $67,000-deduction. It was one of our clients who was a trader who was ready to launch and go into his business and then his employer made him an offer he couldn't refuse and gave him a whole bunch of our money. He took a $67,000-loss. He had never made a dollar in the corporation. We went under audit. We won. Yay. It took two seconds because it was a single letter and we gave him the law, and it's a statute. The IRS is just a policing agency. If there's a statute that's clear, they don't sit there and fight with it. I think it was a $38,000-reimbursement–what do you call it–refund. Awesome first-timer. We love first-timers. Thank you for joining us. "I want to receive an invite, a reminder to a different email." We can give you that. You can always use this when you register for the Tax Tuesday. Just put in your other email. "Interested doing sandwich lease options. What is the best business structure and what document can you provide to protect myself from sellers suing me if a tenant or buyer stops paying rent or if a tenant or buyer trashes the home?" That's a tough one. You're literally leasing it and then re-leasing it with the right to buy. Let me think about this one. How am I going to do this? I'm going to be doing that through an entity. The way you protect yourself is to keep very little amounts of asset in that entity so that if you're sued, it's not you; it's the entity itself, and the entity doesn't have much to lose. That's a tough one. I tend to stay away from stuff like that. I want to buy the property and then you do a lease option in an LLC. Jeff: Make sure you have insurance. Toby: Yup, make sure you have insurance, too. That could happen so the tenant trashes the place and somebody else says, "Hey, wait a second." That's why there's always risk. What you do is you just keep it to a low. "Is it hard to set up classes in QuickBooks? Does Anderson do this?" It's not hard and, yes, we do it. "How long does it take to set up a class in QuickBooks?" Jeff: No, you'd have to ask bookkeepers. Toby: Jeff's such an accountant. Yes, it's actually very easy. Jeff: Actually, the bookkeepers are really good at it. They do it all the time. Toby: It's literally all you're doing, is setting up another class. It's almost like a revenue class so you might have revenue that comes in from plumbing and then selling products in your plumbing business and then, "Hey, I have one that's a consulting," and that might be another class. It literally takes two seconds. "What if the Wyoming LLC owns a C Corp which owns an LLC?" I don't know what that means, but what we mean is–I imagine for the 199A. We're just going to look at it is the C Corp owns an LLC that's not going to be qualified for the 20% deduction. The LLC that owns the C Corp, if it's doing other activities, might qualify for the deduction. Here's the problem: In the qualified business, the part I didn't tell you about is what is qualified business income. Dividends, interest, capital gains are not included in that definition so if you're issuing interest from a C Corp to the LLC that flows under your return, you're not going to be getting the 20%. "If you set up QuickBooks with a single entity and use class as a separate income, can you also print a balance sheet by class?" Jeff: Yes, you can do it if the balance sheet is also classified. Toby: Okay. See, we're good. We're getting there. We only have about 200 more questions to go. I'm just teasing you. We've gone through about three-quarters of them. "What is Jeff's last name?" Webb. "I have a rental company. This will be my first year doing taxes. What can I expect to pay on my capital gains? What are some determining factors?" Isaac, if you're a rental company and you're selling–like if you have capital gains, it's going to be depending on whether you sold it within a year or after a year. If it's less than a year, it's going to be ordinary income to you. If it's over a year, it's going to be taxed with either 0%, 15% or 20%. If you make over 250,000, you're going to get to add no another 3.8% and then whatever your state tax is. What are the determining factors? How much you make. If you're married, filing jointly less than 77,000, your capital gains rate is zero. All those things come into it. You can always write us at webinar@andersonadvisors if you want to ask specific questions. "I'm in the process of setting up QuickBooks account for my C Corp. I have a construction business and a hair salon that are DPA-ed as C Corp. I am flipping single-family residents in Wyoming LLC? I have sub-expense and sub-income accounts for those." This is getting long. This one, we may want to answer next week because this is kind of cool. It's talking about sub-accounts. I'm just going to table that one unless you want to jump on it. Jeff: No, I think there were a couple of issues in there. Toby: Yup, "But you don't pay tax until the withdrawal, correct? That was just with regards to the IRA." Steve, you do need an account and, yes, you don't pay the tax until you withdraw, add up in IRA. If you have unrelated business income tax or debt finance income out of an IRA, you'd pay it in the year that it was generated. "Can I set up an entity to receive W2 income and max out top […]?" Yes, but you can't do it out of a self-directed IRA. The reason being is that you are a disqualified person so you cannot do that unless you do something called a ROBS transaction, and that's going to be a major topic for another day. That's if your IRA invests in a C Corp that you set up and there are ways to do it and then you could actually pay yourself, so there. "I recently rolled over a 401K to equity trust IRA account, lending funds to other investors charging interest. Is interest income taxable to the IRA?" No, you can do that all day long, and equity trust is having to sign all your docs. My recommendation would be to set up your own 401K so you can sign the loan documents. Somebody says, "How many times a year can you roll over from 401K to IRA or reverse rollover?" It depends on whether you're doing a direct rollover. Jeff: You can do a trustee to trustee every day if you want, meaning you're going from TDM trade to Bank of America. You can do those as long as it's directly being transferred. You can pull the money out once to yourself once every 12 months, and it's a rolling 12-month period. If I pulled it out today, then I wouldn't be able to do it again until next October. Toby: Somebody asks, "Can I roll individual stock holding into Roth trading account if the current value is under the 550 limit, and how?" The answer would be, really, no; you're going to have to liquidate the holdings, open up a new account in the Roth IRA and then contribute the 5,500. It's a pain in the butt, I know, but I don't make the rules. It's this whole Bank Secrecy Act and all this stuff since they flew planes into trade centers. "Is the old rule dead on personal residences two out of five years?" No, that's still the rule, and we still use it like crazy. That's exception 121. Jeff: Yeah, they were talking about making it five out of eight years, and that got thrown out so it's still the old two-out-of-five rule. Toby: Yup. "Do my startup costs carry over two years if my net was negative?" It's actually 20-something years. Jeff: 15 years. Toby: 15 years now? Nate, you can carry forward your startup costs. Is it 15? Jeff::Yeah. Toby:  "Hey, wait a second. I have an S Corp. They keep charging me the 800 fee ever

In partnership with State Services for the Blind of Minnesota we are proud to present, PACER Center – Champions for Children with Disabilities:  A Visit with pACER’s National Bullying Prevention Center Director Julie Hertzog Julie helped start the Bullying Prevention Center back in 2006 and is a recognized National Leader in Bullying Prevention. She has been featured on CNN, NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams, Time for Kids, PEOPLE, Family Circle and The Huffington Post. Julie sits down with Jeff Thompson of Blind Abilities in the first of a series of podcasts in partnership with PACER Center and State Services for the Blind. Be sure to check out our upcoming Pacer Center podcast featuring the Simon Technology Center and how innovations and opportunities are being created every day and every way. From the web: PACER Center enhances the quality of life and expands opportunities for children, youth, and young adults with all disabilities and their families so each person can reach his or her highest potential. PACER operates on the principles of parents helping parents, supporting families, promoting a safe environment for all children, and working in collaboration with others. With assistance to individual families, workshops, materials for parents and professionals, and leadership in securing a free and appropriate public education for all children, PACER’s work affects and encourages families in Minnesota and across the nation. You can find out more about PACER Center on the web at www.Pacer.org And PACER’s national Bullying Prevention Center at www.Pacer.org/Bullying You can reach pACER Center by phone at 952-838-9000 You can find out more about State Services for the Blind on the web at  www.MN.Gov/Deed/SSB And by calling 651-539-2300 Live Learn Work and Play Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Get the Free blind Abilities App on the Google Play Store.   Full Transcript [Music] Child 1: Bullying is hurting too many people in this world. Child 2: Sometimes I cry when I'm being bullied. Child 3: Bullying makes me feel sad, when I am bullied I try to walk away. Child 4: Sometimes they punch you in the eye, it's so bad that you could cry. Child 5: I got bullied at school. Child 6: Children leave me out of games. I don't like it at all. [Music] Jeff: State Services for the Blind of Minnesota presents "PACER Center Champions for Children with Disabilities". This episode focuses on bullying and with us today we have Julie Hertzog, director of PACERs National Bullying Prevention Center. Julie helped start the bullying prevention center back in 2006, and is a recognized national leader in bullying prevention. You can find out more about PACER Center and PACER's National Bullying Prevention Center on the web at www.PACER.org, we hope you enjoy. [Music] Jeff: Welcome to Blind Abilities, I'm Jeff Thompson. We are at the PACER Center located in Bloomington, Minnesota. We're talking to the director of PACER's National Bullying Prevention Center, Julie Hertzog. Julie, can you fill us in on what Pacer Center is all about and what you do as Director the National Bullying Prevention Center? Julie: Sure, thank you Jeff. Yes, we are in Bloomington Minnesota at Pacer Center and PACER is actually an acronym, P A C E R, and its Parents Advocacy Coalition for Educational Rights ,though that's probably outdated. We've been around since the late 70's and we, our organization began when students with disabilities were given the federal right to be included in the classroom and so that law today is called the IDEA, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, and so we are a parent advocacy organization and what we do is help parents understand what their rights are when their child has a disability in an educational setting. People will oftentimes say, well where does your connection to bullying come in then as a disability organization? In response to that, as an organization we're here in Minnesota, so we do take a lot of calls from parents in Minnesota, and starting in, well it was around early 2000, we noticed that our staff noticed that we were taking more and more calls about kids who were involved in bullying situations and really both kids who were being bullied as well as kids who were doing the bullying, and a lot of those stories just kind of broke our hearts. We knew that we wanted to, to do something we knew we wanted to take action. And at the time bullying in early 2000, it really wasn't something that people were talking about and so PACER pioneered a lot of the education that happened around early 2000, and in 2006 we actually formed a program under the PACER umbrella called PACER's National Bullying Prevention Center. And the connection to our mission with disability is that students with disabilities are bullied two to three times more than their non-disabled peers, and at the time when we formed the National Bullying Prevention Center we knew that, we wanted to always make sure that we emphasize students with disabilities, but to really make a difference, we realized that we, we also wanted to focus on any kids who are vulnerable to bullying and whether that was a student with a disability, are being bullied based on their disability, on their race, their religion, their weight, their gender, we wanted to be inclusive. But we also didn't want to focus just on the kids who are being bullied, we wanted to really engage, we knew to make a difference, we wanted to engage the entire community, so we wanted to be speaking to schools, we want to be speaking to teachers, and and parents, and the students themselves because at that time we had adopted the tagline, the end of bullying begins with you, and we knew that we wanted to really have a community conversation about this. That it wasn't about saying that, you know, schools need to fix this, or teachers need to fix this, or the kids need to fix it, it was really about all of us working together. And so that is the background on the National Bullying Prevention Center and how we got started. Jeff: You mentioned something that really struck me as it's more than just one person, it well, it is about one person, what I'm getting at is, it's a community, it's the family, and the communication that happens between all of them that will help solve this. Julie: Yeah for so long we talked about some of those misperceptions that we had about bullying or some of those stereotypes that we had about bullying and if you think back to early 2000, I remember when I first started working on this and again I've been on this project since its origin and there was so many statements such as boys will be boys, yeah, meaning that it was justified because they were boys, that it was okay for them to fight, that's just the way it was. Of course, we've all heard that universal one, sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you. We know that that is not true, that bullying is not only about physical, it's about emotional, and you know through the years we've had kids say some really poignant things like, words are like weapons, or words will break your heart, and we know that that emotional bullying has just as much effect on students and probably lives inside them much longer even than the physical bullying has. There's also other stereotypes and misperceptions out there that have rationalized bullying for so long such as, you know, just fight back, or you know, kids have also been blamed for why the behaviors happening to them and parents or adults have said to kids, well if you didn't act that way, bullying wouldn't happen to you. And so those are all things that in early 2000, just those stereotypes allowed bullying behavior to perpetuate because we were silent, so when a child was reaching out to us and we were saying things back to them like, well what did you do to make that happen? Really what we were doing is shutting down the conversation and any options that they had to make it stop. Or even when kids would tell an adult that someone else was being bullied, you know our response was, don't be a tattletale. And so again if we're so long what has happened is our society allowed the behavior to perpetuate not, not intentionally but, there was also that statement of, bullying is just a natural part of growing up, I mean those, those were all rationalizations for the behavior for so long. But I will say around you know in that early kind of mid-2000's that people really started recognizing the incredibly negative impact that bullying had, not only short term, but also long term. And there was a couple things that happened at that time in that, the results of the advent of social media at that time. I can remember saying that in 2006 that the Internet is the new bathroom wall, meaning that bullying used to be limited to the school or you know, possibly the neighborhood and kids could go home and escape that, well maybe except for that occasional phone call that they would get or something, but they were really able to, you know, go back home and remove themselves from it. But with social media it became their, you know with the evolution of technology also became the evolution to bully, and so kids were vulnerable to bullying 24 hours a day, and I think that that was one of the reasons that bullying really was put on kind of that national dialogue and also there was a recognition that kids because of things like self-harm, things like depression, anxiety, we began to recognize that there was medical things happening with our kids that were the result of being bullied, and also their you know, the suicide ideation, and suicide attempts, became part of the dialogue as well. So those two things really kind of started to put bullying much more in the public radar and also, they turned a lot of those stereotypes around and we recognize that bullying was a very serious issue for our kids. Jeff: You mentioned in the beginning that educating parents and giving them tools to deal with some of the stuff that comes with, I mean mostly parents in my situation that I know, they didn't choose to become a parent of a child with disabilities, and where do they go for that so, that's what PACER was basically built on. Julie: Absolutely and Jeff I'll just share too that I am the parent of a young man who was born with Down syndrome, who was also nonverbal, he has a feeding tube, a pacemaker, some really significant medical issues and so, it was David who, he was three when I started here at PACER, and he's now 21, and it was thinking about those vulnerabilities of kids that really inspired our, my work here, and also the work of others, in that so much of bullying happens because someone is not able to defend themselves against it, and so it was about how do we educate parents to raise kids who are self-advocates? How do we educate parents to be advocates for their own children? You know and I think back, and again I'll just reference back to 2000, so often when kids would tell their parents that they were being bullied, I think the first response from parents from majority of parents was, oh just ignore it, it'll go away, and you know, and that came from a really good place, and I think parents hoped that by ignoring it, it would stop, but we know from history that just ignoring it does not make a go away, in fact it usually gets worse, and and I remember kids, there was some kids who jokingly when we were talking to them for the focus groups and everything else and they said, well what if I would tell my parents to just ignore their annoying boss? Would that be a solution to the situation? And I remember there was another kid he said, What if I told my parents just to ignore their bills? Would their bills just go away? And so, you know we'd say that, and we realized that, how ineffective that response was, but that was the only thing we had at that time, and we know now that there's so many more solutions. And since 2000 now, every state across the nation has a law about bullying, and bullying prevention in schools, and legislators focused on the school environment when creating those laws. So, we now know that parents and kids have rights and within every state about what can happen if they're being bullied and those weren't in place before, and we also teach parents just how they could be supportive of their child. So instead of being that dismissive, just ignore it, we help them understand how important it is to talk through it and let them know that they're not alone, that we're getting, that you're gonna as a parent, you're gonna be there to help them learn how to advocate their way through it, and I would say to Jeff, that you know, I think for my own son even, self-advocacy skills were so important for him and being a child who's nonverbal, one of the things that we taught him how to do is, if, if you're not feeling comfortable, first thing we want you to do is find a teacher, and we had that written into his IEP, and even from there we continued developing more strategic options for him. Jeff: So, when I was on the website for the National Bullying Prevention Center, I noticed there's some videos and it just wasn't a collection of videos, they were broken down into young children, teens, and you know it even led to what you're talking about educating adults. Can you tell us a little bit about those videos? They really impacted me because it brought me back to the realization that, I may have been part of, not may have, I was part of bullying a little bit and I was bullied, and it just it doesn't go away really, because it all came back to me pretty vivid, pretty, it was all there. Child 7: It makes me cry after school. Child 8: We are different in many different ways, size, shape, and color. Child 9: I have been bullied so I know how it feels to everyone going through a hard time out in the world. Several child voices: Tall, short, skinny, or round, tall, short, skinny, or round, you have a voice, so make a sound. never meant to be the same. Child 10: You have to care because there are other people in the world besides you that have feelings. Child 11: Bullying can prevent good in the world and make the bad go in the world. Child 12: It's not nice to bully, it's better to be a friend. Julie: Yeah absolutely, and you bring up such a good point to Jeff in that, one of the decisions we made very early on was to recognize that any student within the same day can play multiple roles in what we call a bullying situation, and that you may be that young person, you're on a bus riding to school and someone might be throwing, you know, wads of paper at the back of your head over and over and everybody's laughing. So you're that person that's targeted by bullying on the bus and so you can imagine how that feels, that vulnerability, you're on the bus and you get to school and there's all sorts of emotions you're feeling, you're, you know you might be feeling anger, you might be feeling fear, you might be feeling sad, and then you get off that bus and you walk into school and you see a kid by a locker and for whatever reason you just decide to push that kid because you know that you can, and you you push that kid, you've now taken on that role of the kid who's doing the bullying. The next hour you might be witnessing a similar situation you know, in your own classroom, and so to just be labeling kids as a bully, or as a victim, or as you know, somebody who sees it, it wasn't strategic for us. We realized that this is the root of all bullying, it's a social issue. It's a very social issue and by us allowing the behavior to continue to happen without anybody saying anything about it is why it was perpetuated for so long, and I think it's about, we say bullying is about behavior, and so our kids, they're about behaviors, they're not about labels, and what we really want to do is be educating them, and Jeff you mentioned those videos and I think that, again in today's culture, and our evolution, the way we absorb information, we thought it was so important to be offering everybody a variety, so everything from being able to read information, to listen to information, to have access to videos, and you know, and we do a lot of interactive stuff as well. The video series we wanted to touch a parent audience because we want to be giving them a little bit different information than what we would give our kids. So, we actually do have three different websites. We have the National Bullying Prevention Center which we consider our portal page, and that's really for our adult audience, and then we also have two age-appropriate websites. One is called Teens Against Bullying and that is for middle and high school students, and the second is called Kids Against Bullying, which is for elementary school students, so we present to information that that's age-appropriate on those sites through a variety of dissemination, so everything from reading, to interaction on the website, to videos. Jeff: Yeah that was really interesting because I think the ones for kids had animated drawings, it actually described what was going to be on there and said drawings that the kids did, and then their voices, so it really brings it home, and when you witness, or you hear that kids voice, and the tones in their voice, it really like, you can feel it and you mentioned something about everyone's kind of a participant in it. Either your bullying, your target, or you're a bystander. Julie: Yeah and you know, bullying doesn't affect just that kid who's being bullied because when we think about, we like to talk about bullying on a continuum, so if you take a hundred students and you'd line them up, there's gonna be ten students who are frequently targeted by bullying, there's gonna be ten students who maybe are doing the bullying, but that leaves these eighty kids in-between who probably you know might experience bullying a little bit, or might participate in groups, but they're also that 80 percent that sees it happening and you know Jeff I'll tell you universally from talking to kids for, for the past almost twenty years, that group doesn't like it, they don't like what they see, but what they've never had in the past is that they didn't feel empowered to do something about it. You know it goes back to maybe one of those kids in that group was the one that went and told a teacher when they saw a bully and when they were met with, don't be a tattletale, you know what does that do, it shuts them down, they're not going to go back again and say something about it, and so again, it's about making that cultural shift to really engage that 80% to be what we call advocates. It goes back to our PACER model of advocacy, and we say it's advocacy for self, and advocacy for others, and so really giving that that group the dialogue and the tools about, what do you say if you see a bullying situation? And I think that 80% is so important for our kids with disabilities to because the majority of bullying is happening outside the adult's world, and so it's happening in places like a bus where there's not adults, you know, the one person who's on a bus is the bus driver, and what are they doing, they're facing the other way of where all these kids are sitting behind them. And so bullying also happens online, in places where adults aren't, you know that's why so many social media sites that adults are using, kids aren't, because they want to be in a world of their own choosing, and interacting with each other. And so if you think about it, it becomes extremely important for this peer group, this, these bystanders to be empowered to do and say something about bullying, and especially for those who aren't able to stop it on their own. And there's also a really powerful statistic that almost 60% of bullying situations will stop when a peer intervenes and that peer invention becomes so much more powerful than anything in an adult could ever do because just as kids who bully have a lot of power, the peers can take that power away in that situation by saying, you know, we don't accept this, this is not what our school is about, we're better than this, and we've found that that it's extremely effective. [Music] Jeff: It's cool to be kind. [Laughter] Julie: Yeah you know you want to say something, it's cool to be kind sounds really cool to us as adults, but we like to frame it a little bit different for kids and, and especially you know, I think our elementary school students, things like that still resonate with them, you can go with that, some of those really very simple messages. Life gets a lot more complicated for our middle and high school students and how that empathy is, how do you tap into that natural empathy that kids have, because most people don't want to see another person be hurt, but they don't want to put themselves in that situation where they themselves might next become the target, or they get in trouble for sometimes intervening, and so you, you want to really make the payoff, you want to make the trade-off worth their investment of intervening and taking that risk. Jeff: Yeah that group mentality, those eighty students, is it cool to be part of the cool group, that the group is doing this, or is it cool, and I think because of PACER and you know the states passing the laws about bullying that the youth now is starting to realize that it's okay, and cool, those to step out step in, and be part of the conversation part of the solution to bullying. Julie: Absolutely, and Jeff again, my son David, I remember when he was going into middle school and again, you know everybody has their individual vulnerabilities and for him, it was not being able to tell us if he was in a bullying situation he just he wouldn't have that ability to do that and we wouldn't know, and so one of the things that we wrote into his IEP at that time was about training kids to be his advocates. So, at that time, we selected four young people who I knew were already allies of David and these weren't popular kids, they weren't the student council kids, they were they were kids I just knew who had empathy and who cared. We gave them the training to look out for David because we knew that they would know about bullying long before any of the adults would and those students were amazing, and they had such incredible, just their own self-worth and their self-confidence was brought up so much by learning those advocacy skills for David that they shared it with friends and they told people how much you know, this meant to them being part of you know, being delegated with this responsibility, and so that model quickly expanded within my son's school, that advocacy model and they became known as peer advocates. And so, what we did is we continued to train students about what to do if they saw somebody in a bullying situation, how they could intervene, what kind of support they could provide for David, and we also provided an adult mentor that they could go to. So that they could you know, share if there was something that was beyond what they could handle. And that model was incredibly effective, and it became known as the peer advocacy model, and it's still in place at that school today and I know we also have information about it on PACER's website. Yeah there's a great video on there, there's the toolkit, there's statistical data, and there's also a way that you can start it within your own school as well. Jeff: And that's what that toolkits about right? Julie: We have several toolkits on the website, but there's a peer advocacy toolkit on the website that really explains that model in more detail. Jeff: In my world of disability with the blindness and vision loss and difficulty in reading the printed word, self-advocacy is an important skill to develop because typically the parents are what becomes a personís advocate to make, ensure that they're receiving services, or they seek, come to PACER's to learn how to be their advocate in a sense, but then there's a point where the parent will assign chores, or wean them into responsibilities and self-advocacy because they're going to transition from high school to college to the workplace and having that skill set is very important. I was glad to see in the bullying that you guys mentioned self-advocacy. Julie: Yeah, I would say with self-advocacy in bullying, the one important nuance there, is that, we want to make sure that we're not putting full responsibility upon the student to stop it themselves because if they could have stopped it themselves they would have already done that. But what we do say is that self-advocacy is very important and that'll help you get your power back in this situation because I think so much about being bullied, you start to feel powerless, you start to feel like you don't have any options, so in doing that self-advocacy piece is really powerful, and in the world of disability too, it's important to note a couple things, that you have either your IEP, or your 504 that you can be writing those goals and objectives right into, and we've seen parents and teachers get incredibly creative with that. So everything from identifying an adult that a young person can go to if they need help in a bullying situation, and, and that advice, because that isn't always readily available in the school, and so writing that right into your plan is very important, or you know, we've seen other situations where students can leave class five minutes early just because if a hallway is really busy and they're getting bumped around you know, quote-unquote by accident, when we really know it's not by accident that it's on purpose, you know maybe for a short period of time they want to leave class early just to make sure that, that it's not happening, but ultimately we want that behavior to stop in the hallway and for it not to be happening so that they can be included with their peers. But the other important piece is that there's not a federal law about bullying, so every state has a law, but at the federal level there's a law on harassment. So, the distinction between that is that if the bullying is based on an individual's disability, or their race, or their religion, or their gender, or their national origin, then it reaches a threshold of harassment, and at that time the Department of Education as well as the office for civil rights are looking at those scenarios too, so there are some protections in place when the bullying is based on an individual's disability. Child 13: I push myself and yet it is never enough. Child 14: It's never enough. Child 13: And it's hard to ask for what I need. Child 15: I wish others could see that I may not be tough on the football field. Child 16: Or deal with social events very well, but I am a dependable friend. Child 17: It is hard to be understood. Jeff: You mentioned harassment and bullying and you thinking about all the definitions as they're defined in whether a dictionary, you know Webster would say, but it seems like they all blur together, it's a little blurry like conflict harassment, bullying, can you talk just a little bit about that? Julie: Sure I'll give a quick 101 on a definition of bullying, and again Jeff, you know like you say it's, it's somewhat nebulous, and so I'll go back to, if you're listening to this, this recording in the state of Minnesota, Minnesota's definition of bullying in the schools might be much different than how California legislation defines it, or legislation in Pennsylvania, but there are some common hallmarks that I'm gonna mention as far as what defines bullying. So, the first would be that there has to be the intent to hurt, harm, or humiliate, and that can be either emotionally or physically. So, everything from a push, a shove, to name-calling/gossip, so there's that intentionality to hurt, harm, humiliate. The second is is that, the act is typically repeated, instead of you know, but often you know, if it's of significance it can be a one-time act, and I'll use the illustration of say for example if somebody's on social media and they say something really inflammatory and it reaches the an audience of a thousand people immediately, to me that may be a single act, but because it's reaching a thousand people it would definitely hit that threshold of bullying. The third is there's this power imbalance, and again this is, this is I, you know, the imbalance of power up, with that in quotations because it sounds very lofty, but what it is is when a person has either more physical or social power, so everything from you know, so a larger person being much more intimidating to someone else, to a person of smaller stature, but it can also be social power you know, so often we hear it's the quote-unquote the cool kids who are bullying, and so they have much more social cachet then the person that they're bullying. But that imbalance of power can also be about groups, because so often with bullying there's a group mentality and you know, against one person, and it's awfully hard to have power in that situation as an individual versus a group. And the fourth one is that the person is not able to defend themselves, because we see a lot of times people act inappropriately, but it's when, when that person is, feels vulnerable, and they're not able to stop what is happening to them without the help of someone else. The distinction between bullying conflict and harassment then, so with harassment, it has all those hallmarks of bullying, but it's also, and again we're looking at the legal definitions based on legislation, and so the distinction with harassment is that it has all the hallmarks of bullying, but it's also based on an individual's disability, gender, race, religion, national origin, and so the legal, that's the legal definition. And at the interesting nuance to is just to understand what the difference is between conflict and bullying because I think that's very important with our kids, is that we want to let them know, that to have a disagreement, to have an argument, that's a natural part of just life, and it's going to happen through through life, and the distinction of when conflict crosses over into that threshold of bullying is when one person feels unsafe, they no longer feel safe in that disagreement, and also that most conflict will stop when the person realizes how much they're hurting the other person, and so those are really those those distinctions. Jeff: Yeah, I remember there's something saying, guided by empathy that someone does then, retreat or realize they're doing, they're harming someone, they actually realize it, and some people just don't. Julie: Yeah and they'll usually though, they'll be an apology or just an acknowledgement of, hey I guess you know, we've, we've crossed a line here that's not comfortable for someone, for the other person. Jeff: I think the, one of the biggest things you know I, I knew I was coming here to talk about bullying and so I you know, looked at the website and I talked to a couple people about it, and I reflected some things in my past, and I just am grateful that the children today in schools and stuff have the opportunity to be part of the conversation that you and PACER are doing, the bullying prevention, are doing, that there is a conversation that people can join in on. Julie: Yeah one of the I think important parts about our websites is that we wanted to make it not only educational, but we also want it to be aspirational and inspirational and you do that through the sharing of stories, and so if you do go on our website, one of our primary hub and navigation just lists stories, and that's true in all three of our web sites, whether it's for our kids, teens, or adults because we need to understand that impact that bullying has, and I think it's so, it's so easy to say, oh you know it's horrible what happened to somebody, but when you read their their personal story, and you understand the impact that it had for that person, literally about them maybe not wanting to get up and go to school because they couldn't face another day, it's important to know that, and it's those stories and the sharing of stories that really changes lives. And so we wanted to have a way that people could interact and so story sharing is one of those, we also have a nice feature called I care because dot dot dot, where individuals can go on there and fill out why this topic matters to them, and again those are very poignant, and very telling, and also just that kind of that aspirational piece is that, we want the opportunity for anyone to get involved and we realized that we're a small staff so PACER overall has a staff of almost seventy people but on our bullying prevention project there's only three of us, so there's three of us within PACER and we obviously have an infrastructure that supports us, but one of the things that we knew is that the only way we could make change with such a small staff was to really have people who wanted to get invested within every community and that's really what we found is whether it's kids, whether it's parents, or teachers, or even community members, we want to give them tools so that they could be part of the conversation. I think an important evolution you know, what you've heard me talk about what bullying was like in 2000 and where we are now in 2018 is that when we started in 2000 we really needed to be educating people about why do you need to care about this topic of bullying, and then you know, and the reasons were is because it had such a negative impact on her kids, everything from them not wanting to go to school, to also having these physical symptoms of depression and anxiety. You know I think the majority of our society now understands that, that bullying is is not acceptable, but now we need to beware. What are we going to do about it and what behaviors do we want to replace it with and so our conversation has continued to evolve to, we are together against bullying but we're also United for attributes such as kindness, because again you can't go wrong with kindness, and the world just needs a lot more of it. But we also started talking about the concepts of inclusion and acceptance, and we chose those two very purposefully. Inclusion because so often our students with disabilities are not included, you know traditionally they're not included in a classroom setting, they're not included in peer groups, they're not included in friendships, and so to be having active conversations about that we felt was really important. And the other values of kindness, inclusion, and acceptance, and I think so often bullying is about people's differences and in thinking about it, so often what somebody is bullied about is really what makes them unique and valuable to society and I'll just use my own that I, I'm five-eleven now, and I think I was five-eleven back in sixth grade and though I was teased about height and, but really that's what I value, and I think in blind or visually impaired community, and again Jeff, you can probably speak to this, but it's probably your uniqueness that you value about yourself. And so one of the things that we want to do is to say that acceptance is about who somebody is and things that they cannot change, but it's also probably what really they value most about themselves as well, and even my son with Down syndrome, I think what people value about him is his disability because of what he brings to a community, because of his uniqueness, and how he approaches life because of this disability. Jeff: I'm so glad to be part of this conversation because I'm just reflecting back and you talked about acceptance, like when I first lost my eyesight there was a period of time there where I was like, hmm, I didn't know what I didn't know, and I was like kind of lost, so vulnerability at that point until I was able to accept my blindness, my visual impairment, then I could deflect comments or just things like that so, Julie what suggestions would you have for someone who may be experiencing bullying? Julie: Sure, and I'm gonna look at this through the lens of we really focus on students in K through 12, and the first thing I always want to tell anyone who's in that age range and/or their parents is to know that, especially if you are experiencing bullying, that you're not alone, and and I say that Jeff because, one of the things we so commonly hear from individuals is that they feel like they're the only ones that are going through this experience. And you're not alone, in that people are here for you, and if you are being bullied, absolutely as a young person reach out to somebody and let them know, because you have the right to do that, you have the right to be safe at school, you have the right to feel safe online, and so in talking to a parent it's not a show of weakness, it's a show of strength, and I think it takes incredible courage if you are being bullied to just show up to school every day, and so use that courage and translate it into action by talking to an adult and then figure out what you want to do to, to advocate to make it better, and part of advocacy is telling somebody and letting them help you through a plan, and you know whatever that plan may be, make it unique to you, that fits your needs. And for adults, if you find out that your child is being bullied number one listen to them, and let them talk through it because it's a very emotional thing, and you as a parent are going to be experiencing a lot of emotion if you find out that your child is being bullied. Everything from why didn't I know about this before to why didn't they tell me before, but the most important thing you can do is be supportive and the 2nd thing is to go in and find out what your rights are, you know be calling us, or be emailing us, or going online and in finding out what your rights are because your child does have the right to be safe at school, I think that's, that's just of primary importance in of advocate. Jeff: I don't know this one will make the podcast, but as you're talking there I was thinking, do kids who bully ever come forward and wonder why they're doing it? Julie: Yeah absolutely and it's a great question and, and again, I can only speak [inaudible] from the kids that we that we have communicated with, but we've heard where kids go on our website and we actually have a checklist on there especially for our young kids and it's called, do you bully? And they go on there and they read through those behaviors and they, they read through it, and they say, wow I'm doing that, and they don't realize the impact that they've had on another person through their actions, and so we need to be teaching our kids about what appropriate behaviors are, and if you as a parent find out that your kid is, is showing those bullying behaviors, absolutely be having that conversation with them and saying how can we redirect what you're doing? And teaching them how to have empathy for others, such an important piece, and, and I don't think most kids would identify themselves as quote/unquote a bully, and so that's where it's particularly important for adults to be acknowledging those behaviors and saying what can we do to redirect them? Jeff: Once again thank you so much for all this information, there's just a wealth of information that I was able to tap into, I'm going on to the website and talking to you, and you know even this podcast people are gonna be listening, and it's just, sometimes you feel like you're in a vacuum in life, you're isolated from it like, what do I know about bullying in a sense that do I have the answers, but with the conversation going on, and the website and stuff people can get connected to each other and share, especially their parents because they're the ones if they know about it, they're the ones that can do stuff too, and it's just great resource. Can you tell people how they can get to your website? Julie: Absolutely, you go to PACER, again P A C E R, is that acronym that I talked about way back at the beginning and it's PACER.org, and that'll get you to PACER's primary website, and then to reach the National Bullying Prevention Center you would put in PACER.org slash bullying. Jeff: Well that's easy enough, well Julie thank you so much for carrying on this conversation that we all need, and I don't think just because I'm in the blindness community, and bullying doesn't have boundaries, so opening it up to so much, most of our podcasts deal with blindness and stuff but we can't hide from bullying because it it does exist, so thank you very much. Julie: Thank you Jeff and thank you listeners! Child 18: Sometimes we are just told to deal with it. Child 19: Sometimes I don't think I'm any different from other teenagers. Child 20: We kind of all struggle to be understood. Child 21: But yeah, I struggle. Child 22: Emotionally and intellectually, it's sad when people are insulted and made fun of because they have something they're born with and cannot help but have. Child 23: If only others could see, I have so much to offer. Child 24: I would like to encourage kids of my generation... Child 25: Well, really everyone.... Child 26: To be more kind each other.... Child 27: To be more kind to each other...... Child 28: To be more kind to each other. Child 29: Think about how good it feels when someone comes to help you when you least expect it. Child 30: We are all trying to fit in. Child 31: We are all trying to fit in. Child 32: We are all trying to figure life out. Child 33: We are all trying to figure life out. [Music] Jeff: Be sure to check out PACER's Center Champions for Children with Disabilities and PACER's National Bullying Prevention Center on the web at www.pacer.org, and check out State Services for the Blind in Minnesota at www.mn.gov/deed/ssb. Live, learn, work, and play. And a big thank you goes out to Chee Chau and Steven Letnes for their beautiful music. You can find Chee Chau on Twitter at lcheechau, and Stephen Letnes at stephenletnes.com. For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, and download the free Blind Abilities app from the app store, and on Google Play, that's two words, Blind Abilities. You can also enable the Blind Abilities Skill on your Amazon device, just say enable Blind Abilities. And from Pacer Center, State Services for the Blind, and Blind Abilities, Thanks for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time, bye bye! [Music]

Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided Welcome to the 4th episode of Job Insights with Serina Gilbert and Jef Thompson. We focus on Employment, Careers, enhancing opportunities and bringing you the latest innovations from across the Vocational Rehabilitation field to ensure your choices lead you down the career pathway that you want and succeed in gainful employment. From getting started with services, to assessments, Individual Plan for Employment (IPE) to gaining the skills to succeed and tools for success, Job Insights will be giving you tips and tricks to help your journey to employment and break down the barriers along the way. On this 4th episode of Job Insights Hope Paulos joins Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson in the studio and they talk about productivity apps and software. From the classroom to the workplace, these apps are geared towards making your daily challenges a bit more manageable, efficient and productive. Hours Tracker, Black Board, Drafts, Files, SeeingAI, Dictionary Thesaurus Pro, KNFBReader and Bookshare’s Read To Go app are all mentioned with some great discussion about how we use these apps. A great little Scan Stand named Foppidoo makes the scene and a conversation on Lift and Uber gets quite a chat as well. You can check out the Meet Me Accessibly book from Jonathan Mosen and learn about Zoom on the PC. Join the Job Insights crew and download some apps and give them a whirl. Hey, productivity rocks! We hope you enjoy this Job Insights episode and you can send your feedback and suggestions to the Job Insights team by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. A big Thank You goes out to CheeChau for his beautiful music! Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided [Music] Female voice: I feel like I'm getting a lot better education so yeah, I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment. Female Voice: But sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. Jeff: Learn about resources for training education and employment opportunities. Female Voice: Blackboard, that is a learning management system and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes. So this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. Jeff: We will hear from people seeking careers, employment, from professionals in the educational field, teachers, and innovators in this ever-changing world of technology to help you navigate the employment world and give you Job Insights and enhance the opportunities to choose the career you want. Male Voice: Fopydo people sounds good and I actually at that time asked my son, and I, it was actually a play on the on Scooby-doo. Jeff: And you can find the Job Insights podcast on BlindAbilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities Network with hosts Serina Gilbert and myself Jeff Thompson, and you can contact us by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com, leave us some feedback, or suggest some topics that we cover. On Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and check out the Job Insights support group on Facebook where you can learn, share, advise, and interact with the Job Insights community. [Music] Female Voice: Lift also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with the service animal. Jeff: But hey it's a good learning tool, because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you, mm-hmm, so I dug right in, when I saw they had flashcards I went Wow! [Music] Jeff: And now please welcome Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights. [Music] Jeff: Welcome to Job Insights and this week we're talking about apps, apps that you'll use in school, at the workplace, and these are productivity type of apps, and with me today of course is Serina Gilbert how are you doing? Serina: I'm good Jeff, how are you? Jeff: I'm just doing great and we got a guest today all the way from Maine. Hope Paulos, how are you Hope? Hope: I'm doing great, how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good, we're all doing good, so that's good. Today we're gonna talk about apps, you know some of these apps are mostly productivity type of things, stuff that you'll use to, you know get things done and that's, that's what we're, we're all about here on Job Insights. So Serina, last podcast you said you were holding out on us from what you're gonna tell us, is the cliffhanger over or are you gonna tell us? Serina: Oh we've got a little bit of a wait cuz we have to talk to Hope first, we have a guest. Jeff: How about you Hope, what do you got? Hope: I certainly don't have a cliffhanger. [Laughter] Serina: We set her up there Jeff! Jeff: yeah. Hope: Yeah you did! [Laughter] Jeff: So Hope, how's it going out and Maine? Hope: It's going well, the weather is nice finally, when I talked to you and Pete last time, it was March, and it was in the 20's, 20 degrees. Now we are in about the 60's, 70's, so I am absolutely loving it, birds are chirping, the guide dog is going for walks, he's enjoying it, Jeff: Is he bringing you with? Hope: Oh yeah of course! [Laughter] Jeff: That's great! Serina: But Jeff needs to know if you planted any Apple trees? Hope: No. Serina: Only PC trees? Hope: Only PC trees. [Laughter] Jeff: Oh that's the running joke isn't it? So when it comes to productivity type of apps, Hope what did you bring to the show today? Hope: Sure, so I have a couple of them. I don't use this particular one very much right now because I do work for Apple, and Apple has me on a strict schedule so I don't need this particular one, but for people who are freelancing, the name of the app is called Hours Tracker, it's a free app and basically it allows you to track your hours of course, hence the name, but it also allows you to track your earnings, and it will deduct the taxes as well. So it will tell you how much is deducting for taxes. So it's great for individuals who are freelancing. The second app that I have brought to the show is Blackboard. That is a Learning Management System and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes, so this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. This will allow you to do your classes online literally anywhere and actually a couple of the blindness organizations were working in tandem to get this particular app accessible. It's extremely accessible, there was only one thing that I commented on a couple weeks ago and I sent feedback in to the iOS developers and they fixed it. They're very very good about fixing issues that people might have. The other app that I brought, that I brought to the show is Learning Ally. This is an app that will allow you to download books and it's also good for individuals who are dyslexic and who have low vision because I believe it will allow you to magnify the print in the actual book so you can read along with the narrator which is quite helpful. That's more University as well, University-type app, Productivity app and of course the last app would be the Bookshare app. The Read2Go, this allows you if you have a membership to Bookshare, which I believe most students can get for free, it allows you to read the books on your phone be it Android or iOS. Jeff: Now on the Hours Tracker, is that what it's called? Hour Tracker? Hope: Hours Tracker yeah. Jeff: Hours Tracker. So when you're doing the setup, your presets, do you put in your wage, and then it just calculates it and are you able to output that anywhere, or is it just something you read? Hope: Absolutely, so this particular program allows you to put in the wage, and it allows you to put in whether or not taxes are withheld, so technically even if you were, you know not freelancing, if you working a job as an employee, a W2, you could use it as well. Basically it allows you to put in your breaks and your lunches and things like that, and it lets you know when to go on the break, and when to go to lunch, and when to clock out, and when to clock in. [Music] App Voice: Sample Job, 0.05H today, 0H button, clock out now or long-press for extras menu, button, next clock out now, button, cause now, button, break now button, break now, sample job 0 H on break 8:10 a.m., 0.02H button, end break or long press for extras menu button, end break. Hope: It also will let you know, like you can, you can set a reminder to have it automatically clock in when you get to work, and yes you can send it, I think it's a CSV file, or CV file, something like that, a database file, and it will put it in an Excel spreadsheet I think as well, so that you can show it to your employer. Jeff: That's kind of neat. Serina: That's pretty cool I like that. Hope: Yeah it's a it's a pretty neat app for sure. Jeff: Intuit the makers of QuickBooks and various tax applications has a program and it might be part of their bundle and I believe you can buy it separately, I believe it's called Self-Employed, but that sells on a monthly subscription for 7 to 8 dollars a month. Hope: Yeah this is free and I think, I'm trying to think if I paid for anything, I think I did just because I was freelancing at the time and I wanted them more, more, so it has a lite version and it has a full-featured version, but even the full-featured version wasn't some really really, you know cheap price. Jeff: A one-time fee? Hope: A one-time fee yeah. Jeff: That makes perfectly good sense, economically I can track that pretty good. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: You can download Hours Tracker free from the App Store or the Google Play Store. Hourlys Tracker is free for up to 21 days of time entries and if you upgrade to the pro or professional, you get rid of all the ads, unlimited amount of entries that you can make, the only difference between the professional and the personal is you can have unlimited amount of jobs in the professional, and you can upgrade to the professional or the personal in the in-app option. The professional will run you $9.99 and the personal will run you $5.99. Once again, a one-time payment, I was really intrigued when I heard about Hours Tracker, I downloaded to my iPhone, and started using it right away, I named a job, I started the time, and when I was completed I stopped the time. I also had the option to input the time that I wanted it to start or input the time that I wanted to stop, otherwise you could do it in real time and that works out really nice. There's also an option that you can take notes and keep them with that job. I found that the accessibility on Hours Tracker on my iPhone was second to none, all the buttons were labeled and the intuitiveness was what I expected for when I have started logging the job, putting in the hours, getting out of the job, putting notes in, was just exactly how I expected it would work and it did work that way. Another small part of the accessibility, it lets you cancel a pop-up or dismiss the pop-up that comes up, and I really like that because if you've ever had a pop-up pop-up and not be able to get rid of it, that's not good. So after kicking around Hours Tracker on my iPhone for one job, I personally recommend this for anybody who is self-employed or someone who works on projects and just wants to have better records of the time they spend on their projects and jobs. [Music] Jeff: So on the Blackboard, I remember I have not experienced Blackboard yet, but I remember going to college and I was at the mercy of every professor that was experimenting by putting stuff on the web and accessing it through a link they give you, and if it was accessible you got lucky, so Blackboard is a collective effort to make it accessible for everyone. Hope: Absolutely, so it all depends on the type of class you're taking obviously right, if people don't know I'm going back to school to become a teacher of the blind and visually impaired and so all of the courses need to be accessible to me. So the professor's will tag their images so that I can know what's going on, their quizzes are all accessible, obviously the discussion boards are all accessible, and I use a combination of the two apps, so I use the combination of Blackboard and I use Learning ally to be able to do my classwork, and literally like I said, I can do it anywhere. With the phone if I have a Braille display and/or a Bluetooth keyboard I can do my homework on the beach or in the park you know, so literally anywhere and that's huge compared to when I was going back to school to get my undergrad degree, like you know 2009, that's when I graduated so it's, it's huge it's a huge step up. Serina: Yeah I remember using Blackboard when I was doing my master's degree which would have been gosh, probably around the same time as you are doing your undergrad, so I finished in 2010 and so, I don't know, 2007, 2008, somewhere around there's when I started it and they used Blackboard for everything. My program was pretty much 100% online, we didn't have the app back then, we just had the website, but even back then the website was pretty accessible. I rarely had any difficulties with it and I was going for the rehabilitation counseling so the professors were a little bit more cognizant of accessible media and documents and things like that. I loved using blackboard because it is easy to log on to, you know if I was on a break at work or whatever, or at home trying to get a discussion posted or something like that. Hope: Yeah it is really easy to use extremely easy to use. Jeff: Is that why you opted to do your classes online, not that you're on an island out off the shore of Maine, but..... [Laughter] Hope: Yeah I think, I think it's easier because I've done classes on site to, not having to do as my masters, but having to do with my undergrads degree. I find the digital world to be a lot more accessible, I just remember going to classes on site and didn't have a lot of input from the professor. The professor was teaching to a lecture hall full of I don't know, a hundred students, I just felt like I was kind of left out and wasn't getting all the notes that I needed to get, whereas here taking the classes online and using, again the combination of Blackboard and Learning Ally, I'm able to take the notes that I need, I'm able to contact my professors if I need to. I have peer to peer interaction as well. I feel like I'm getting a lot better education, so yeah I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Hope: Of sorts. Jeff: Yeah that's great because you know everyone has to do what works for them and if you found a good way of doing it that's great, having those two apps makes it all accessible. Hope: For the most part yeah everything is accessible, even from registering for classes, I go to Missouri State University, so using Missouri State's website is accessible. It's just huge, it's what we're able to do as people who are blind and visually impaired with a digital world, it's absolutely huge. Jeff: So is that something you looked for when you were looking for an online course that they did use Blackboard? Hope: Not really, I didn't know what they used, I contacted them, I did ask them in the beginning when I was registering for the program what they used and I could have used Moodle, Moodle was another application, another learning management system that I'm familiar with and either one I would have been fine with. I looked online and and saw the collaboration between the two blindness organizations regarding Blackboard and I'm like okay this is going to be fine, this is gonna be great, I know it's gonna be accessible, I contacted my professors beforehand and gave them my accommodations and all that and said I need extra time and because it's a digital world they can input my time-and-a-half for quizzes and allow me to have that time and you know they can input that in Blackboard and all is good. I can't speak enough good things about accessibility and digital stuff. Jeff: So let's see, there's Learning Ally, we will put that in the show notes, we'll put Blackboard in the show, we'll put all these in the show notes so people can click on them and go right to the App Store or the Google Play Store and we'll have the links there, so back to the cliffhanger. [Laughter] Jeff: Hi Serina. Serina: And I thought of one like while we were sitting here, so even you'll be surprised Jeff. Jeff: Ooo. [Laughter] Serina: My absolute number one favorite app and I see it all over all of the groups like iPhone and iPad apps, and the assistive technology group, all of them, a seeing AI, I don't think it's any surprise there. That app allows me to be a lot less dependent on a human reader to just go through what's in my mailbox that I get at work. Now I can just kind of okay, yeah I need someone to finish reading that to me, or oh, this is just something that needs to go in the file, it's cut down on how much time I have to spend with somebody sitting at my desk with me going through stuff, and it's free, which is amazing to me because I remember reading gosh, I think it was like two years ago when Microsoft had their hackathon and they had released a video about seeing AI and they were showing a demo of it and I was like, well that's cool but it'll never come out and if it does it'll be super expensive. And then all of a sudden there's a link, and it's free, and it works, like amazingly and it, I can't thank Microsoft enough for that, that actually was a big surprise for me. Jeff: Yeah, you just open it up and boom, short text is reading. Serina: Yeah, from across the room right Jeff! [Laughter] Jeff: Yeah, that happened to me and, I shouldn't say it but I was that Orcam demonstration when they were having the little issues, and I was reading the wall that had their sign on it, so I was like wow, this is already talking, just out of the box, just turn it on and there it is. Male Voice: I use seeing AI all of the time to determine what's in my medicine cabinet, for documents you know I use seeing AI for short text. [Music] Female Voice: I use the document reader all the time, not gonna say it's as good as KNFB Reader because it's not. I did a test between reading my mail with it and with KNFB Reader and I found KNFB Reader to be far more stable, but I still like the app, I use it a lot, I'm glad that it's one of the tools in our toolbox. Female voice: For reading and stuff I used to go to KNFB Reader all the time but it just seems like Prizmo go and seeing AI is so much easier that I tend to go to them more. Male Voice: Seeing AI is my main go-to app and I use that, the short text channel mostly if I can't identify an item with that I will switch to the product channel if it has a barcode. A lot of the apps like [Inaudible] and Aipoly Vision and [inaudible], I've deleted most of those off of there because I can accomplish the same thing with seeing AI [Music] Male Voice: Jeffrey I see apps like Aipoly Vision, [Inaudible], Identifee, of course the KNFB Reader, I think seeing AI is becoming the main tool in the toolbox. Jeff: And you know, all the other channels that they have on their to four options but that's the one I use all the time because, you open it up it works. Serina: Yeah there's a handwriting one too that I've tried only a couple of times, but it surprisingly did recognize the handwriting enough for me to figure out at least what the note was generally about cuz sometimes my clients will stop in and I can't see them, and they'll leave a handwritten note at the front desk and obviously it's probably dependent on the individuals handwriting but I was at least able to get the name of the client and know, okay I'll just call them and see what they needed. Jeff: Hmm, well that's good. Serina: That one's in BETA I think. Jeff: Yeah you always wonder when they have a little feature that's in there and they tag the word BETA after it's like, you better use it now because it may not be there! Serina: Or it's like the disclaimer don't trust this feature. It might not work right! Jeff: Mm-hm try it on a doctor's prescription. [Laughter] Serina: Oh gosh. Jeff: That's the to test. Serina: This is totally not productive but when seeing AI first came out, we were playing with it in my office to see how old it thought everyone was. [Laughter] So all of my co-workers were like changing their hairstyles or putting on glasses or taking off glasses to try to trick it to make it think that they were younger. Jeff: That's a great use of state-funded money. [Laughter] Serina: Hey! Jeff: I know everyone's been doing that, it's kind of a novelty thing and that's like artificial intelligence to me when they're built into apps to me, it's like you know when you go to the carnival, you know, they'll guess your age and you win the whistle or something but you know, I'm not into the novelty stuff but that really does work. Serina: Hope, do you use seeing AI for any of your school work, or since it's mostly digital do you not have to use it a lot? Hope: Yeah I use it sometimes, I use it for work actually to find out whether or not my Mac, my work Mac is gonna turn on correctly. We have so many policies in place at Apple that sometimes voice-over doesn't turn on correctly and so I use either seeing AI or I also use AIRA for that, but most of the time I just grab my phone and you seeing AI. Speaking of the, or how old people were, I actually did that last weekend I think it was on my grandmother's 93rd birthday. I went up to her and took a picture of her and had seeing AI tell her how old she was, now again she's 93 right, so it said a 65 year old woman is smiling, or looks happy or something like that and she's like, wait, did it say 65? [Laughter] Hope: Shes like, I like that! So it made her day. Serina: Yeah. Jeff: I actually think for women they do have a built in algorithm that knocks off a couple years just to you know, keep the customers happy. Serina: No it added 10 years to mine, no matter what it says 10 years. Hope: Oh really. That's funny! [Laughter] Jeff: The algorithm breaker! Serina: Gosh. [Laughter] The other one that I use is obviously very similar to seeing AI but sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. To my knowledge I don't know that you can scan multiple pages in seeing AI and if you can, somebody let me know, cuz I actually like it a little bit better. But sometimes when I'm working from home and I don't have access to my flatbed scanner but I need to read some printed like medical documents or things like that, I'll take out KNFB Reader and just scan a whole bunch of pages all at once and then read it, through it continuously, so that's very helpful, and then also you can save on KNFB Reader in their file system, and I think I saw on the latest update that now they can sync with Google Drive and Dropbox now to, so that's kind of a really cool feature that they've integrated in there now. Jeff: Yeah I like the KNFB Reader when I have like, I might have 10 pages of something to read and I don't want to take a picture of each of them so I put it on double sheet and then batch mode and when I turn the page it'll sense that, so you know you got the page turning then ch-ch-ch. KNFB Reader Voice: Manual picture button, automatic picture, picture from ste..., alert, please place your device on an empty document stand and align the camera with the aperture, okay, button, flash off, button, multi-page mode off, button, multi-page mode on. [Camera Sound Effect] Serina: Do you have a stand that you use with it? Jeff: Yeah I do, its the Fopydo and it was designed by Thomas Wardega, and here he is. Thomas: Fopydo sounds good, and I actually at that time asked my son, and it was actually a play on the on Scooby Doo. So basically this was designed from the ground up for people who are blind and visually impaired and along that process I learned to work with people who are blind so I went through a couple of revisions of the stand before I even started selling it just to make sure that people are happy with using it and that it fulfills whatever is needed from a scanning stand for people who are blind and visually impaired. [Camera Sound Effect] Jeff: It comes with a set of instructions that you can scan, you can put it together, once you got it together it just folds right up and you can put it in a suitcase, it takes up very little real estate. Serina: Oh I need one, and does it work with any phone or? Jeff: Well back when I talked with him he said it would handle, if you balanced it right, and iPad Mini, so I, I guess your your beast of a phone, your iPhone X may work. [Laughter] Serina: Yeah and put the link in the show notes cuz I've been, I thought, I had somebody looking for one before and they were like $50, I'm like mm-hmm, I'll just hold it up, you know. [Laughter] Jeff: Having the batch mode on the KNFB Reader really makes it viable product for someone that's in school that may have to be scanning a lot of pages. Serina: I definitely need one of those. Jeff: Yeah we'll put the link in the show notes and I believe he sells it on Amazon and if you have Amazon Prime, there you go, ten, twelve bucks. Serina: Primes getting expensive though it's like $120.00 starting this year. Hope: I think there's a discount for students. Serina: It's half off for students cuz I had that for a couple of years, and then they got smart and realized that I'm not a student anymore because my school let me keep my student email address for years, and I don't even think I have it anymore now. Now they make you verify by sending in like a schedule. Hope: Oh really? Serina: Yeah. Hope: Similar to Apple music, they do the same thing. Serina: Yeah, and I think Spotify does the same thing too. Hope: Yep. Serina: They got smart. Jeff: So we'll have to put the link in there for Amazon Prime half off for students, that's good news. Serina: Yeah that's it, and half off of Apple music and Spotify, not that those are, those could be productivity apps because if you need music to stay focused. Hope: Technically yeah, exactly, that works! Jeff: Or books. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: Amazon still sells books. Serina: Who orders books anymore? Jeff: Does anybody use Audible for books? Serina: I do not, I totally looked at it, but every time I looked at it I just can't, like I think it's thirteen ninety-nine a month for so many credits and one, the amount of credits you get for that amount is equal to downloading one book, and I haven't found that it's better than just using BARD, because they usually have especially if it's a best-seller what I want anyway. Jeff: Mm-hmm and the BARD app is totally accessible too. Serina: Yeah it's, it's a little old school sometimes, it has its glitches but it gets the job done. Hope: It can be yeah, exactly. Jeff: But it's, it's something that if you do send in a report and stuff like that they'll fix it? We can hope for the best right Hope? Hope: Yeah exactly, yeah sure, I'll write them, I'll give them a good report! Jeff: There you go. Hope: Sure. [Laughter] Serina: Well and it's hard because I know, I think that's run by the Library of Congress so that probably takes like an act of Congress just to get a glitch fixed you know. Jeff: Oh good one! Serina: I didn't mean it to be all cheesy but it's kind of funny. Jeff: Yeah it is, it is, it's nice when things work and you know, you were talking about seeing AI when you open it up short text just starts. I got an app called Drafts, just like the seeing AI, when you open it up it just works the short text is working, do you open it up and the cursors waiting up in the upper left-hand corner and you can start typing, you don't have to open up a new file. The neat thing is if you're in a meeting and you're taking notes and you can set it for certain increments of minutes that pass by and then next time like you open your phone, say it closed, it'll start a new file automatically. Serina: Well that's cool. Jeff: So you're not adding to your recipe you wrote two days ago that's still sitting there, do you want to save it, you don't know if you should save it, it automatically, so if you set it up for 10 minutes, if 10 minutes goes by, it saves it, and opens up a new one, just ready to go, so it's like a new sheet of scratch pad for you, can actually do some markups on it, yeah share it anywhere you want, it's really cool. I do the cut and paste and then just pop it into an email, bang! Serina: I like that, is that a free up too? Jeff: Yeah Drafts is free, I think it's called Drafts 5, there is a professional upgrade, a pro version and that is $20 a year or two dollars a month, but you can do a lot with just the Drafts app. I just love that because when you just want to take down a note, I don't like going into, I use pages because it syncs up with my apple orchard but when I'm at someplace where the meetings starting and I open up pages, you know it has to load up, it goes to the recent, and it seems like, you know all the gears have to spin around five times before anything happens, but this one opens up just bang, it's ready to go. Serina: I especially have that problem using the native Notes app on the iOS devices. Ever since they made it where you've got some notes on your iPhone, some on iCloud, some on Google Drive, or Dropbox or wherever, it's so hard for me to figure out where my notes are anymore that I just don't use that app anymore. Jeff: And that's my second app that I was going to talk about, it's the files app in iOS platform on the iPhone. Files, if you don't know where it went because it says, oh it's stored on the iCloud, or on the desktop in the iCloud, or on the iCloud Drive or wherever, and you start hunting around, but if you go to files and go to most recent, it'll check all those files, all those different drives, all the different places on your phone and everything, but if you go to recent and then if you click up on top you can go back and actually go specifically only to one area where you think it is, but if you put it on all, its checking all those drives that you have synced up with it and you can usually find it, so when I get lost for a second I just open up files and go to the most recent and there it is. Serina: That's a good tip, I didn't know that. I never really knew the point of the files app. Jeff: Yeah check it out, open it up and just see, and you'll see what you've been doing lately. Seirna: So I have one more that you do not know that is my favorite apps to use, any guesses? Jeff: Hope, what do you think it is? Hope: Hmmm, Uber, no it's not productivity, nevermind. [Laughter] Serina: Well technically it is, I do use Uber and Lyft a lot for work actually because I have to go as part of my job, I have to be at high schools and things like that and I am almost an exclusive Lyft user personally. Jeff: And why Lyft over Uber? Serina: I just have found just with my personal experience in the city that I live in that I've had better luck with Lyft drivers as far as friendliness and I have a service animal so, I've never been rejected on Uber, I'm actually, the only place I was was actually on Lyft. I found that the cars have been cleaner and the drivers just seem friendlier and with Uber I specifically am NOT a fan of the, if we wait more than two minutes, we're gonna charge you policy. Hope: Oh that's not good. Serina: Yeah that's a newer policy, maybe in the last six months and that policy just really bothers me especially when you're visually impaired. Drivers will say they're there and you're like where? You know, and if they're automatically gonna charge you, I think it's, I don't, I guess it's maybe like five dollars, if the driver has to wait I believe it's more than two minutes, like that's stressful, it's already nerve-racking like being like, hey I've got a service animal, are they gonna drive right past me, are they gonna pick me up, and then to know they're also gonna charge me an extra five bucks if I can't find them. And then they also tend to do the walk here and meet your driver thing. Jeff: Oh yeah. Serina: And I've never had that happen with Lyft no matter, I've been in downtown Denver and that's not happened before, but Uber will send you up a random parking lot or something to meet your driver. Hope: Oh wow! No thank you. Serina: Yeah so that's more why I'm Lyft exclusive, and then on the driver side I'm not quite sure how it breaks down, I don't remember how much the drivers get but I know with Uber it's not like a set percentage that the drivers get as far as, like I think it with Lyft the drivers get 75% of the fares With Uber, nobody really knows what percentage of the fare they get because they can, I've had drivers say like, yeah I've done rides Denver to you know, the DIA Airport and sometimes I get 60, sometimes I get a hundred, like there's no, I guess transparency with it. Jeff: Mmm-hm. Serina: And I can only speak to you know what I'm told, but I just personally feel better about using Lyft and for those who don't know, Lyft also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or a fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with a service animal and I feel like that's a very strong policy, and that's telling you where they stand on that very clearly, and I'm not, I'm not sure if Uber has come out as strong as they did. But that's all for a whole another podcast, you have to use all that when we talk about transportation. [Laughter] Jeff: No that's, that's good information because in my neck of the woods my wife uses Lyft, I use Uber and yet, I've been noticing that at certain peak times the price goes way up and other times it's low, and the waiting time changes, but you know, if it were two minutes, it's sometimes it's as low as thirty seven cents, but other times it's higher, you know, so things, I think it's the area you're in that really has, it makes a difference between which one you use, it is productivity because you got to get places and it's nice to know you can get there. Serina: And on time and on your own time. Jeff: Good. Serina: But that was a really good guess that brought on a whole another discussion, I liked it. [Laughter] Serina: But honestly we're on the app right now. Jeff: Ahh, zoom zoom. [Laughter] Serina: But part of my job is to train other people and to hold conference calls and things like that, and to my knowledge as far as like a true training platform where you can record and share your screen and things like that, I found that Zoom is the most accessible system out there that's also used by like companies all over the place. I know Skype is out there, but I don't know if Skype lets you like record the calls and things like that, I don't, like independently, not by pushing it through a different software but just right in the program recording it and having that access to be able to share your screen and still use your PowerPoint effectively and things like that. Jeff: Mm-hmm, and we're doing a neat thing for the first time here and we didn't know if we could do it but Hope sat beside us waiting patiently for us, but we figured it out and we're recording on two ends right now. Serina: Unless I pushed the wrong button again which is very possible. [Laughter] Jeff: Another cliffhanger, stay tuned next week when we find out! Serina: That will be our opener next week. Guess what I actually did it right! Jeff: You know, I'm starting to like Zoom because it's like I can't even tell you, you guys are here, because typically when we're using Skype in my headphones, I have this hiss when other people aren't talking so there's continuous hisses going on and then in the editing phase. So Zoom's really good and I really like the feature where you can send an email and people can just click on the link and they connect right up. Serina: Yep, it makes it really really easy. Hope: So a question I have, you mentioned sharing your screen, how accessible is that with voiceover? I heard through the grapevine that the voice-over will read actually what's on the screen. I don't know if it's true or not? Serina: So I haven't had a chance to test that because at work we don't use any Max, and then when I'm on a Zoom call and I am a participant I'm not usually on my iPhone. Hope: Right. Serina: So if you are leading the meeting and you're sharing your screen, it's actually pushing through a video of your screen, so it's almost like, I just imagine like a webcam watching your screen or whatever. Hope: Right, so I would assume it's not accessible then. Serine: Correct, but and I don't remember the keystroke, maybe Jeff knows, but I know in the latest major update to the OS on the Macs and iOS, you can have it essentially perform an OCR on the screen like live, with the software on the Mac, but I haven't had a chance to truly test that out just because I'm not usually on Apple devices when I'm participating. The way that I work around that, because I do have to present to individuals that use screen readers as well sometimes, is I usually will send my PowerPoint out ahead of time so that they can follow along while they're listening to the meeting, but then they also have access to the chat panel and everything else, it's just the visual of the video that they're not quite having access to but I, I just send it out ahead of time. Jeff: Yeah I haven't dug too deep into this, but Serina told me about Jonathan Mosen's book, and he did a full fledge book on using Zoom for calls and meetings and stuff like that, and yeah, I believe you can get that on Mosen's consulting on the website, and we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Serina: Yeah the book is called "Meet Me Accessibly" and it's very current based on, because I listen to maybe four or five chapters so far, and it sounds like he recorded it maybe in June of 17 and he does a really good job of letting you hear the screen reader and how it interacts with everything and going through all the different settings and explaining what exactly it is that they all do. Jeff: Yes he does he has quite a few books on Mosen's consulting so when you get there, just look around and he has tutorials on a lot of different topics, he's into the Mac, he's into, no not the Mac as much anymore, but he's into the PC, Microsoft. Serina: All these plugs Jeff, you're going to need to get some royalties! [Laughter] Jeff: Hopefully I get their name right and their website right. Another app that I have that I use and some people laugh at this, I use Dictionary Thesaurus Plus, and if you get the dictionary you can upgrade and you get, its a combination of Dictionary and Thesaurus Plus and I get the word of the day, and I'm just waiting to get that specific word to send Serina because she laughed at me when I talked about this app before. But it's just kind of neat because in there, they have flashcards and I'm on the bottom, they're not labeled but I figured out what two of them are, flashcards, so I took insight today just when I was skipping around there and I made a flashcard so on one side it says insight, on the other side it says the definition, so someone could actually go through there if they have a 10 word list that need to know or learn, like they're in school and they could actually input the word, get the dictionary, and there's also a button that says go to page, so if you want more definition you can just click on it, brings it right to the dictionary page and it's just kind of a neat resource if you're into that you know. If you want to know what words mean. Serina: Well that could you, I mean you just brought up a good point though, that could be a really good study aid for somebody if you're in a class where there's a lot of maybe theories, or specific definitions you need to know, you could load all those in there and while you're on the bus or whatever kind of be going through those, probably a more fun way than just reading the book. Jeff: Yeah and that's why I did it, like when I took Spanish, I made, I made note cards. I took these note cards and I brailled on one side, and then on the other side I had some other Braille, the translation in English to what it was, so I could just go through, and people were like joking with me like, Oh flashcards, it's like it's something for the kids or something, but hey, it's a good learning tool because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you. Serina: Mmm-hmm. Jeff: So I dug right in when I saw they had flashcards, I went wow! So I really like that and it's, uh I think there's a fee for the upgrade, might be a few dollars but you can get download at all for free and test it and then in the in-app you can upgrade. Serina: Nice! Jeff: Well I think we got a handful of apps here that you know through experience we, we've been trying, we've been using and stuff. Some of these apps if you find them useful click on the show notes, download them, check them out, and if you have any feedback or suggestions on the apps that you want us to do on our next show, give us a jingle, drop us an email at JobInsights@blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and uh, let us know what you think. Serina: What are we talking about next tiem John....John? Wow! Sorry! [Laughter] Jeff: Well Sarah! [Laughter] Jeff: What will our next one be on? Serina: I don't know, we have so many topics, normally I'm like, let's take this, let's let Hope pick the next topic, no pressure! Hope: No pressure yeah right mm-hmm! Let's do transportation since we kind of talked a little bit about it in this one, that would make sense. Serina: Getting to work. Hope: Yeah, absolutely. Serina: Perfect. Jeff: Getting to work, school, college. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: There you go Sarah! Serina: Stop it! [Laughter] Jeff: And if you want to contact Hope, she's on Twitter. Serina: If you want people to have it? Hope: Yeah my Twitter is Fidelco, capital F as in Foxtrot, I, D as in Delta, E, L, C, O, 4, the number four, ever. My email address is hopepaulos@gmail.com, so hopepaulos@gmail.com. Jeff: Well Hope thank you very much for coming on to Job Insights, it's really neat to have you and we're gonna have you back as soon as possible here for our next round table. Hope: Thank you so much Jeff and Serina, it was wonderful being here. I appreciate it! Serina: Yep, you have a great day! Hope: Thank you! Jeff: Do you know it's nearly midnight and you said have a great day? Serina: Well this will come out during the day. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: It was a real pleasure having Hope Paulos join us on the show today, all the way from Maine, and next week when we're talking about transportation all the way from New York we'll have Joe De Niro, so stay tuned to the next episode of Job Insights. And a big shout-out to Chee Chau for his beautiful music and you can follow him on Twitter at lcheechau, as always thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time bye-bye [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, We can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff: For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.  

Job Insights Episode 2 - Vocational Rehab 101: Demystifying the Myths and Planning For Employment Welcome to the second episode of  Job Insights with Serina Gilbert and Jef Thompson. We focus on Employment, Careers, enhancing opportunities and bringing you  the latest innovations from across the Vocational  Rehabilitation field to ensure your choices lead you down the career pathway that you want and succeed in gainful employment. From getting started with services, to assessments, Individual Plan for Employment (IPE) to gaining the skills to succeed and tools for success, Job Insights will be giving you tips and tricks to help your journey to employment and break down the barriers along the way. In Episode 2 of Job Insights Serina and Jeff break down Vocational Rehab services from eligibility, intake, personal adjustment training, training centers, and your responsibilities as well. Navigating the services may seem daunting at first but with a little bit of information and explanation you will soon fine your pathway to gainful and meaningful employment does not have to be a solo journey. Your Voc-Rehab team wants you to succeed and is their for you all the way.   Full Transcript Below   We hope you enjoy this Job Insights episode and you can send your feedback and suggestions to the Job Insights team by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. A big Thank You goes out to CheeChau for his beautiful music!   Thank you for listening. You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Transcription:   Job Insights Episode 2 - Vocational Rehab 101: Demystifying the Myths and Planning For Employment   Serina: I know sometimes that a lot of individuals can be a little bit overwhelmed by applying for services with vocational rehabilitation and we'd like to hopefully demystify some of the myths and help you learn a little bit more about the process. Jeff: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment. Serina: Helping you with independent living skills, helping you get around town, helping you with cooking, money management, all those things that you need in order to be successful on a job. Jeff: Learn about resources for training, education, and employment opportunities, to see what best suits you to see if you're prepared to move on to the next step. Serina: Correct. Jeff: Thus it's an assessment. Serina: Correct, it helps the counselor out and it helps you out too. Jeff: We will hear from people seeking careers, employment from professionals in the educational field, teachers and innovators in this ever-changing world of technology to help you navigate the employment world and give you Job Insights, and enhance the opportunities to choose the career you want. Serina: We would hate to see you move forward with an employment goal that you thought you would absolutely love, only to find out maybe three months into the job that you obtain, that you really don't like it so much, so it helps us save a little bit of time and prepare you for realistic expectations on the job. Jeff: You can find the Job Insights podcast on BlindAbilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities Network, with host, Serina Gilbert and myself, Jeff Thompson. And you can contact us by email at jobinsights@blindabilities.com, leave us some feedback, or suggest some topics that we cover, you can also follow us on Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and check out the job inside support group on Facebook where you can learn, share, advise, and interact with the Job Insights community. [Music] Serina: Sometimes it might be getting more evaluations done with an orientation and mobility specialist, or a vision rehabilitation therapist to see what kind of personal adjustment training you might need. Jeff: And now please welcome Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights. Serina: Hi Jeff how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good how are you Serina? Serina: I'm doing great, how was your week? Jeff: It was good, it was good, the sun has come, spring is finally here. Serina: I don't know, I think you might get some more snow. It's not May yet. Jeff: We're just so glad to have it, I already got the patio furniture out, so I'm excited, I'm excited. Serina: You gonna be barbecuing for me? Jeff: We did that yesterday. Serina: Nice! Jeff: And I didn't even let you know did I? Serina: No you didn't even invite me, even though I'm, I don't even know how many miles away from you. [Laughter] Jeff: I'll waft the barbecue smell west. Serina: Send it over with an Amazon drone you know. Jeff: There we go. I wonder what that sound will be? Serina: They'll probably have like a special Amazon Prime sound for us all. Jeff: Oh yeah so it's recognizable. Serina: Everyone's jealous because we got something from Amazon. Jeff: The dogs will whine just a little bit, it is exciting though when a package comes. Serina: So I heard that we got a ton of positive feedback on our very first introductory episode to Job Insights? Jeff: Yes we did, it did not come by drone, but we got so much positive feedback, it's really exciting. Serina: I think that's great. I know today we were talking about vocational rehabilitation 101, and we'll chat a little bit about the process, what to expect. I know sometimes that a lot of individuals can be a little bit overwhelmed by applying for services with vocational rehabilitation and we'd like to hopefully demystify some of the myths and help you learn a little bit more about the process. And I know, as I talked about on the previous podcast, I was also a client of vocational rehabilitation and I believe you were as well right Jeff? Jeff: Yes I did, but unlike yourself Serina, my ophthalmologist did not send me there, so getting started with State Services was interesting. Serina: At least you got connected, that's that's the biggest part. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Serina why don't we start out by telling the listeners a little bit about what it takes to qualify for services, and if it's a federal or state standard that they go by. Serina: So it's a federal mandate, the eligibility requirements for vocational rehabilitation systems, in general, you have to have a documentable disability that poses some sort of barrier towards you entering into employment, keeping employment, or advancing in the current position that you have. You also have to be able to basically benefit from the services and that's a presumption that most agencies make. Jeff: A presumption? Serina: A presumption of eligibility. Jeff: Hmm? Serina: Another eligibility criteria that helps is, I believe if you receive SSI or SSDI then you are automatically eligible for vocational rehabilitation services. Jeff: So that's usually a process when you go there for services then you probably have to get it to go to a doctor so it's documented. Serina: Well, you can go to a doctor, but if you do not have documentation of your disability, vocational rehabilitation can actually either send out for the records, or send you for evaluations in order to obtain that documentation. Jeff: And that's just one of the steps of the intake process. Serina: So that first step is your intake appointment, which your counselor will go over a ton of different paperwork with you, you'll sign some releases of information for them to be able to talk to necessary individuals that might be working with you on the case, or to obtain medical records, or again refer you for those necessary evaluations, and from that time frame of the first date that you officially apply for services your counselor has up to 60 days to determine you are eligible for services. It can take that long depending on the counselors caseload, but sometimes it's faster, it just depends on the documentation that you already have, and what that counselors caseload looks like. Jeff: Is that the same for when agency is on order of a selection? Serina: Correct, they still have the same 60 days eligibility determination requirements, even if they do have a waitlist or order of selection. Jeff: So if they determine on the intake that you're in, then what's the next step? Serina: The next step is what's called the comprehensive assessment. What happens in this stage is you and your counselor are working together to identify a reasonable and suitable employment goal and also identify the necessary services that might be provided to you in order to help you achieve that employment goal. Sometimes this process could include you trying out work, doing what's called a situational assessment, and that would involve you going to a worksite and trying out the job to see if you like it, see that the duties are something that work well with your personality, in your disability, and also to help you with networking. Sometimes it might be getting more evaluations done with an orientation and mobility specialist, or a vision rehabilitation therapist to see what kind of personal adjustment training you might need. Jeff: Serina, personal adjustment training, can you break that down for our listeners? Serina: Definitely, personal adjustment training might include helping you with independent living skills, helping you get around town, helping you with cooking, money management, all those things that you need in order to be successful on a job. Jeff: And typically you could be sent to a blindness training center or a vendor of the agency? Serina: It depends on this state, some agencies do use the blindness centers, some do have in-house service providers that work specifically for DVR, or third-party vendors like you mentioned, and then I'm not sure about other states, but here in Colorado we do actually have a center based program that the vocational rehabilitation program staffs as well. Jeff: And in Minnesota were fortunate to have three adjustment to blindness training centers, Vision Loss Resource in Minneapolis, Blind Incorporated in Minneapolis, and in Duluth we have the Lighthouse for the Blind, plus State Services for the Blind, and various vendors that will provide specialized services as well. You mentioned doing a situational type of thing where you go to an employer and they do an evaluation, would that be set up with your employment specialist to see if this is an interest of theirs or to see if they like it? Serina: It can be set up through an employment specialist if the state that you work in is structured in that manner, sometimes it's your vocational rehabilitation counselor that's setting it up, and sometimes it can even be a third party vendor that you're working with that is providing that assessment service for us. Jeff: And this is all in an attempt to see what best suits you to see if you're prepared to move on to the next step. Serina: Correct. Jeff: Thus it's an assessment. Serina: Correct, it helps the counselor out and it helps you out too because we would hate to see you move forward with an employment goal that you thought you would absolutely love, only to find out maybe three months into the job that you obtained that you really don't like it so much, so it helps us save a little bit of time and prepare you for realistic expectations on the job. Jeff: So if you do need some soft skills, if you do need some technology skills, and it's determined that you should go to a blindness training center of some sorts, that might set you back six to nine months or whatever it takes right? Serina: That's correct, the blindness training centers are not super short programs, I think the shortest program that they have is the summer youth program for those that are still in either high school or college perhaps, and I believe that's even eight weeks. Jeff: And that's basically like a step program to bridge you into college preparedness? Serina: Correct. Jeff: And if you're planning on going just straight into the workforce then a training center might give you the skills that are needed to help gain employment. Serina: Correct, they work on every skill that you can possibly think of from independent transportation, orientation and mobility, independent living, I do believe they do some self-advocacy training, as well as working on basic social skills because you are living on campus with lots of other people and there's gonna be times when you disagree and you're gonna have to use those conflict resolution skills which will help you for sure once you start working. Jeff: I know we talked about transition aged students quite a bit, but there's also other people adults that have vision loss and they want to get their employment back and so these training centers do adult programs as well. Serina: And it can be quite helpful because I know last time we talked a little bit about an individual maybe who's coming in that has lost sight a little bit later in life but still really wants to work, that's a hard transition coming from having a driver's license and being able to independently transport yourself and work on a computer, to all of a sudden not having those skills anymore and abilities, and those centers and also other field based programs through vocational rehabilitation can certainly help with that transition, and also help you connect with different support groups and things like that so that you can start networking with individuals who've maybe been there as well. Jeff: However, before you move on to this step you must set up an individual plan or employment. Serina: That is correct, and all of the individualized plans for employment can only have services on it that the counselor and you agree are necessary and appropriate, and then they are always purchased at the least possible cost. So there might be times when there's certain products that you really really would like, but the counselor has to follow certain policies and purchase things at the lowest possible cost that is still appropriate for what you need the items for. Jeff: But typically the items will get you to your destination? Serina: Exactly, like as an example, there's lots of different types of computers now, we have our personal computers that maybe would run a screen reader or screen magnification software, and we have our Mac books that also have that same type of software built into it. Typically vocational rehabilitation is going to look at purchasing personal computers more so because we're looking down the road at employment and most employers still use personal computers, so it makes the most sense to get you used to using that type of a technology if you're going to be working in an office environment down the road. Jeff: And when you're saying personal computers, you're talking about Microsoft based platform. Serina: Correct, like a Windows computer. Jeff: Mm-hmm, Serina, can you tell us how flexible and IPE, individual plan for employment is? Serina: Yes, it's a plan, yes it's written on paper, but that doesn't mean that it can't be changed. So it's really important to communicate with your counselor if you feel that something's not going the way that you want it to go, or that you want to try something different, because that plan can definitely be amended, it's actually quite rare that we have the exact same plan from start to finish. Jeff: Okay someone goes through the process and they get their training, making progress, and you're checking the list and moving forward and now they're going to college and they are succeeding, according to the plan, and it comes time to where they start thinking about the job and job resumes, and job interviews, and all that, is there any services for that type of area? Serina: Definitely, it can be considered part of vocational counseling and guidance, which is on every single plan for employment across the country, I don't think there's any plans that don't have that, but it's also part of what we call job seeking skills training, which would be, you either working with your counselor, or perhaps a third party vendor to develop that resume, develop a general cover letter, and also start doing mock interviews, and begin talking about how do you want to handle the interview, how do you want to disclose your disability, if you want to do that at all, and how do you advocate for yourself during that interview. For example if you need an accommodation for testing and things like that as part of the interviewing process. Jeff: Now when it comes to disclosure, there's so many debates about it, and there I don't think there is any one answer, one fits all for this topic. Serina: Correct and I know we're probably gonna talk about that, maybe that'll be our next episode, because that's a hot topic of how do I disclose my disability, and what when and where, am I going to get discriminated against, things like that, I know people are very fearful of that, that definitely will warrant a full episode. Jeff: And that's a big one, so is writing your resume, because a resume is a work in progress, because if you're looking at one job, looking at a next job, it has to form to the job, the keywords and everything, so it's a good skill to have and a good thing to have a template to be able to adjust it for the job you're seeking. Serina: Exactly, we call it tailoring your resume because if you're not putting in specific keywords, a human's not even going to see your resume because there's so many electronic ways that they use, optical character recognition, and scanning the resume that you've submitted either online or even email, where they just scan to see specific keywords and skills and if it doesn't meet that, then it automatically gets denied. Jeff: Optical character recognition, it was such a gift and now it's working against us. Serina: Yep, sound familiar though right? Jeff: Mm-hmm, Serina with all your experiences, what tips would you have for someone who's receiving services and working with the counselor? Serina: So during the vocational rehabilitation process it's really important that you stay in close contact with your vocational rehabilitation counselor. There will be a lot of times when they're going to be asking for tons of paperwork that you might find cumbersome or even redundant. I promise you they wouldn't be asking you for it if they didn't need it because we get a lot of paperwork, if we didn't need it, we wouldn't be asking for it for you. So especially if you're on/in a plan for employment that includes training, every semester we're going to be looking at what grades did you get, what classes are you registering for next semester, do you need any books, did you apply for your federal financial aid? All of those things are things that are required before we can say yes we will pay for your tuition this semester at the school. If your counselor sends you an email asking for something, the quicker you reply the quicker things can move, and just know that sometimes things can't move overnight, if you call us and for specific piece of technology, we might not be able to get that for you immediately, especially if it's not included on your plan for employment, there might be some paperwork things that have to be done and ordering processes and things like that. So we ask that you're a little bit patient with us, but also the more you communicate with us, the better service provisions you will have. Jeff:And staying ahead of the game is the whole thing. Serina: Exactly. Jeff: Yeah, being on the State Rehab Council I get a lot of documents about this it's agencies and I see that one of the highest percentage of closures is because of lack of communications by the client back to the agency. Serina: That's probably actually pretty accurate because especially with my caseload I work with a lot of young adults, so they're still learning how to keep in touch so I do give them quite a few chances but it never fails that as soon as I close a case because I haven't heard from them despite multiple attempts on my end, about two weeks later is when they call me back and say, well I didn't know that you were gonna close my case. And obviously yes you can go back through the process and we can open it again but it's much more efficient even if you just send me a text message saying, everything's all right, I'm still out here, and that'll keep things going for you, but we have to remain efficient and show that the people that were working with are making progress in order to meet our goals and outcomes. Jeff: Serina, this is a lot of great information for someone who is going through vision loss, what advice would you have for someone who is seeking services from their division of vocational rehab or their State Services for the Blind? Serina: If you are a transitioning student and you're at least 15 years old and you are definitely starting to think about employment and what's next and actually some states that's as little as 14, but most states is about 15 or 16, but if you're starting to think about employment, I would say do not hesitate to contact your local vocational rehabilitation, talk to them about services, even if you call and you meet with them and it's not quite the right time, you are at least ahead of the game and knowing what to expect when you do decide that it's the right time for you. If you're an individual that's lost sight a little bit later in life or maybe have never heard of vocational rehabilitation and you're struggling with some vision difficulties, pick up the phone and give them a call, especially if you're looking into employment. All of our services at vocational rehabilitation are for sure geared towards employment now, so any services that we provide do you have to be tied to an employment goal with an eventual goal of being employed in the long-term. Jeff: You know Serina when I first lost my eyesight, I was skeptical you know, I was like worried about what's gonna happen and I didn't know, I didn't know where the blind were, I didn't know anything and I kind of felt like State Services, the agency was kind of a safety net, so I was gonna go out there and forge my own path and if I failed I would head towards the agency and get services, but now today, the more I know about it, it seems like it's a vehicle towards a future, and I've said this many times, but it is, it's it's, it's a resource, it's a place to go to learn about the pathways that you can take towards employment. Serina: And I'm curious what was your experience on the client side? I know you're on the state rehab Council and things like that, but do you remember being your very first experience when you first applied for services? Jeff: You know this is a great question for me because my experience was quite unique I think because when I first lost my eyesight I sold my pickup truck and I bought a brand new computer, I bought jaws and I started doing things the way I thought was best, I did things my own way. I did not understand that State Services for the Blind with an IPE, an individual plan for employment would have set up something of the nature to provide me the tools for me to succeed according to the plan and my goals, and once I understood that there were services as such, I then meticulously figured out what I would have to do for myself, and what they could do for me, and together we could reach the goals that we both set up. So I think part of the demystification of this is, they won't buy you everything, it's not a toy store, but they will assist you in succeeding, and those services do range from, you know, picking the right college that best suits your field, the technology that you'll need to succeed in college or in the workplace, there's so many services that are available there, you just have to make that call, like you said Serina, make that call and find out what they can do for you, and what you have to do as well. Serina: Well and that, someway just popped a thought into my head, I know that some individuals, most you know, most likely receive SSI or SSDI, some sort of Social Security benefits and it can be a little nerve-racking wondering, what if I start work and then it doesn't work out, how are my benefits impacted, there's lots of different rules related to social security and work. So I'm thinking that might be a really good idea for another future topic as well. Jeff: Absolutely, and when a person is going through vision loss it doesn't mean that they're totally educated on all the intricacies that are involved from your State Services, from your DVR, from the government, from Social Security, all these things have to be learned and dealt with and that's why talking with your counselor to learn, to educate yourself, so you can better be prepared for the opportunities that are ahead of you, and I think calling your State Services is one of the best things that a person can do, and that's why they call it a informed choice. Serina: Exactly, so many topics Jeff, we're never gonna end. [Laughter] Jeff: Hmm, that's job security huh? Serina: For sure, how insightful. [Laughter] Jeff: Speaking of something that never ends, I thought winter was the same way around here, but we got grass out back now and the trees are starting to bud, I could feel that a little apple trees with the little buds on them. Serina: That's awesome, you'll start sneezing pretty soon here. Jeff: Mm-hmm, I'm just glad I planted apple trees because I don't think they make PC trees. Serina: Ba dump bum[Imitating comedic snare drum] [trumoet sound effect] Well that concludes today's podcast, but next week we will be tackling that tough topic of disability disclosure, and the job interview. If you have questions you can email us at: Jeff: JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com. Serina: Or follow us on twitter: Jeff: at Job Insights VIP. Thank you CheeChau for your beautiful music, that's @LCheeChau on Twitter. [Music] We really hope you enjoyed this podcast, thanks for listening, and until next time bye-bye. [Music] [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, we can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations and realities of blind abilities. Jeff: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Blind Abilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that is two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com. Thanks for listening!

Take Full Advantage of Transition Services: Enhancing Opportunities for Success - Meet Kylee Jungbauer (Transcript Provided) Kylee Jungbauer is a rehabilitation counselor at state services for the blind. Her concentration is transition age students. We talked to Kylie about what services they provide for students.  Transitioning from high school to college and to the workplace. State services for the blind has a Transition Unit that facilitates a path for students, providing guidance and opportunities for success. From assessments to training, the transition Team offers as much or as little help as needed while promoting self advocacy and independence along the way. Kylee talks about the importance of Summer Programs and how the Transition Team provides opportunities with employment, career exploration and access to training on the tools that will help bring about a successful transition.   Full Transcript Below   Check out below for a list of Summer opportunities and programs.   Check out your State Services by searching the Services Directory on the AFB.org web site.   State Services for the Blind of Minnesota We offer tools and training for employment and for helping seniors remain independent and active. As Minnesota’s accessible reading source we also transcribe books and other materials into alternative formats, including audio and braille. We assist Minnesotans who are blind, DeafBlind, losing vision, or who have another disability that makes it difficult to read print. I hope you find what you need here. We've also created a Tips for Using Our New Website page. If you’d like to apply for services, learn more, or have more questions, just give us a call. You’ll find contact information for all of our offices on our contact page, or you can call our main office at 651-539-2300.   2018 Summer Opportunities for Teens Learning skills related to blindness, low vision, and DeafBlindness The programs listed below are of varying lengths during the summer. They offer training in independent living and job readiness skills. The program descriptions that follow are taken from each organization’s website. If you’d like to pursue any of these opportunities, please speak with your SSB counselor:   BLIND Incorporated  (Blindness: Learning in New Dimensions) offers an 8-week Post-secondary, Readiness, Empowerment Program (PREP) designed to prepare students for academic, employment, and social success.  The PREP curriculum is designed to empower blind youth with the alternative techniques of blindness they will need to be successful in the college and the career fields they choose, and to give them the confidence and belief in themselves they need to find and keep a job. Additionally there are three one-week summer programs focusing on independent living, post-secondary success, and navigating the world of work.      Career Ventures, Inc . offers resources in: Job Seeking Skills training, Volunteer opportunities, Paid-work experiences, Job Shadows, Internships (on a case by case basis), Job Placement, and Job Coaching. Contact Wendy DeVore at wdevore@careerventuresinc.com for more information.   Courage Kenny SHARE Program  is a resource that provides people of all ages and abilities the opportunity to achieve physical and emotional fitness - and just have some fun. SHARE is a service of Courage Kenny Rehabilitation Institute, part of Allina Health, but our list of services includes those offered by other organizations. It's a one-stop shop for activity listings and registration details in Minnesota and western Wisconsin.    Duluth Center for Vision Loss  offers summer camps designed to sharpen skills needed for success, including Workforce Readiness, College Readiness, Self-advocacy, Mobility, Technology, Independent living, and much more. Students will learn core workforce readiness and adjustment to blindness skills.  They will also be given the opportunity to socialize with peers from across the state and to participate in a wide array of recreational activities. The Lighthouse Transition Program is built on the understanding that “now is the time” that youth need to be developing certain core skills that are essential for their future    Helen Keller National Center  offers programs to students who are DeafBlind which enable each person who is deaf-blind to live and work in his or her community of choice. HKNC offers individualized evaluation and training which will assist students in achieving their own definition of success. The emphasis for the student in the program is to participate in learning opportunities which will lead to successful employment and a full, enriched and independent life in the community. The philosophy of the Center is one of self-determination for all.   Minnesota State Academy for the Blind  (MSAB) offers Summer School programming for elementary, Middle school and high school age students.  Elementary School programs focus on elementary level academics as well as individual goals identified in student IEP’s. Middle and High school students will participate in activities encompassing the three areas of transition (postsecondary, employment, and independent living).  National Federation of the Blind offers of variety of local and national opportunities. The NFB BELL Academy is designed to provide intensive Braille instruction to blind and low-vision children during the summer months. EQ is a week-long learning opportunity that gets blind students excited about STEM by offering hands-on learning experiences. Visit www.nfb.org and www.nfbmn.org for more information.    Stone Arch Employment Solutions, Inc. Email Cori Giles at cori.giles@comcast.net for information.   Summer Transition Program (STP) provides experiences to address the specific transition needs of students who are Blind, Visually impaired or DeafBlind. STP complements each student’s core curriculum at their local school by providing individualized opportunities in the three transition areas identified in their Individualized Education Program (IEP). These unique transition activities, as part of the Expanded Core Curriculum, give each student the opportunity to increase independence in their school, home, community and work environments. Dates for 2018 are June 13-25.  Email Julie Kochevar at julie.kochevar@ahschools.us for information.   Thank you for listening. You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Transcript   Take Full Advantage of Transition Services: Enhancing Opportunities for Success - Meet Kylee Jungbauer (Transcript Provided) Kylee: State Services for the Blind can be included in on that plan but then we will also have an employment plan for the students as well. Jeff: Kylee Jungbauer, Rehabilitation Counselor for Transition Age Students. Kylee: We like to keep our students busy during the summer, that's what I tell all of my students so yep, if you're working with us we expect that you're working your plan and obtain that job goal. Jeff: Voices from the success stories of transition age students. Student 1: State Services for the Blind played a role in helping me figure out, for one thing what I wanted to do after high school, and then where I wanted to go to college, and then also they assisted me with helping me find a job. Student 2: Training in stuff relating to technology and all your use of computers and phones, what's the best way that works for you. Student 3: So I was very lucky to have an IEP team that was familiar with working with a blind student. Jeff: Learn about the transition unit at State Services for the Blind. Kylee: I think another way a parent can be involved is just to have that expectation of their student that they will work, and have that expectation that okay yes, they need to learn how to cook, how to do their own laundry, how to clean because the parents aren't gonna be around forever right. Jeff: Kylee is part of a team at State Services for the Blind in their transition unit. Be sure to contact your State Services and find out what their transition team can do for you, and for more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Blind Abilities, and download the free Blind Abilities app from the app store, that's two words, Blind Abilities. Kylee: But I think more importantly, is taking a step back and saying, okay, do you have the skills to actually go to college, do you have you know, the advocacy skills, do you have the technology skills, do you have the technology that you actually need? Jeff: Kylee Jungbauer. Kylee: Yep. Jeff: Is that right? Kylee: Yep, yep. Jeff: Welcome to Blind Abilities, I'm Jeff Thompson. Transitioning from high school to college to the workplace, it's a journey that most of us have taken, or some of us are looking forward to, and we'll be talking to Kylee Jungbauer. She's a transition counselor at State Services for the Blind. Kylee is going to talk about the services that you can receive to enhance your opportunities whether in college or gaining employment in the workplace. She's going to talk about the transition unit at State Services which will help you navigate your transition journey and make available all the resources, training, and skills, and confidence that you'll need for the journey. Kylee welcome to Blind Abilities how are you doing? Kylee: I'm great, how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to come down to the studios to share with us what you do for clients of State Services for the Blind. Kylee: Yes of course. Jeff: So Kylee, what is the transition unit at State Services for the Blind? Kylee: We work with youth about 14 to all the way up to 24, so college students as well, and we help them move through their transition from high school to either college or high school to just starting off with their first couple of jobs, we look at what their job goal is, or if they don't have a job goal, bringing them to that, with looking at different interest, inventories, or getting different work experiences so they can try different jobs and see what they really like. Jeff: When you say 14 to 24, so 14 you're talking about students who are in high school? Kylee: Correct yep, so when they're in high school we work with in conjunction with their schools and their TBVI's to supplement what they're already getting or maybe give suggestions, expose them to some different technology, and things that maybe they aren't getting in their school. Some schools provide a lot of adjustment to blindness training, and some schools do little, so we like to supplement especially during the summer when they're out of school. Jeff: And why is that? Kylee: Just to get them prepared for life, like I said transitioning out of education, you know high school, a lot of the services are provided for them, they aren't really having to advocate hopefully too hard for those services versus when they're an adult, they're kind of on their own and they have to learn how to do those things and advocate either in college or in their first jobs. Jeff: And what kind of options are there for the summer? Kylee: We have a lot of summer programming that some of it we provide, a lot of it the various vendors provides anywhere from more social to adjustment to blindness training, where, you know learning Braille, learning orientation mobility skills, a lot of Technology in Duluth, since it's so far away they have some online courses where you can work with them remotely I guess from anywhere in within Minnesota, so there's a lot of different options. Jeff: When you were talking about the TVI's teachers for the visually impaired, you're talking about the district teachers? Kylee: I don't know if they're considered district teachers or not but the district's hire them, yeah the schools provide that service. Jeff: And that's where they start their individual educational plan. Kylee: Yep yep, the TBVI's, they're included in it, the students will also have a case manager that kind of runs the whole thing and makes sure that the goals that are written on the education plan are being obtained or maintained or changed as needed, and State Services for the Blind can be included in on that plan but then we will also have an employment plan for the students as well with their job goal, or if there isn't a job goal then we, we just put something generic while we're exploring different careers. Jeff: So they actually have a simultaneous education plan segueing into a employment plan? Kylee: Correct yep, they'll have an education plan and an employment plan at the same time up until graduation of course, and then it will just be an employment plan with State Services for the Blind, and that will bring them through either their first job or college. Jeff: Well that's a good segue. Kylee: Yeah. Jeff: How does State Services or the transition work with the districts or the Department of Education in Minnesota? Kylee: We like to be invited to all of the IEP meetings so please invite us, that doesn't always happen, just because sometimes they get thrown together really last minute and as long as the parent and the student can make it they kind of just go on with it but, it's good for us to be there so we can see what the school is providing and maybe advocate for more, maybe make suggestions, or see where we can supplement in during this school year, you know sometimes students have time on weekends or after school, or especially during the summer time when they're on break. We like to keep our students busy during the summer that's what I tell all of my students, so yep if you're working with us we expect that you're working your plan and obtain that job goal throughout the school year and then especially during the summer when you're on break and you have that extra time, Jeff: Are there internship programs available to transition-age students in the summer? Kylee: Yes definitely we can work with a vendor but we also have our work opportunity navigator, Tou Yang, and he works with a lot of the students that I'm working with to get them internships, paid summer jobs, if they're interested in working during the school year that's great too, or doing Job Shadows so they can check out different jobs. Some students have this career goal, they know they want to do it but they haven't really talked to somebody who's in the work field actually doing that job, and they may find that oh it looks like it's a lot more data entry and paperwork versus client contact and so maybe they don't want to do that, or maybe they want to be a photographer but they don't want to have to figure out their own taxes or anything like that, so they'll look into working for a company versus going out on their own. So different things that they just don't know because they haven't had that experience. Jeff: Experience that will help them formulate their career goals. Kylee: Right exactly, yep so each career goal on our end has to be looked at, explored, and we have to determine if it's feasible, so if we have a student who wants to be a dolphin trainer for instance but doesn't want to leave Minnesota, that's probably not going to be something that SSB will support just because once they graduate you know, they won't be able to find a job here in Minnesota, so yep. Jeff: Maybe moose training or something but not dolphin training. Kylee: Yes. [Whoosh Sound Effect] Jeff: So if someone wants to explore a career, is there a resource here to help them do that? Kylee: Yep work with Tou, and also we've got a couple different websites that we can either send to our students or sit with them and work one-on-one with them to do some exploration that way, and hopefully the student are getting that in their school as well, hopefully. Jeff: So Tou, you say he's the employment navigator, he actually contacts companies, works with companies to know what they want and educate them on what to expect probably, and then brings people in for opportunities? Kylee: Yep, yep he has a background in working and doing job placement for other companies in the past so he has those employer connections which is great as well, but yep he brings students out to look at people out doing the actual job that they may be interested in so they can see the intricacies of it and still interested in that after learning the ins and outs or if maybe it's not for them and they want to explore other options. Jeff: So Kylee, how do parents get involved, do you have contact with parents of transition students? Kylee: Definitely, parents can be as involved as they want to be of course if their student is a minor, they have to be there for any signing of documentation, but after that they can be as involved as they want to be, kind of feel that out with both the student and the parents. Sometimes I just meet with my students one-on-one during the school day or whatever is convenient for them, but sometimes the parents want to be there, sometimes I can send an email to the parents after a meeting just giving them a recap. If I'm sending internship opportunities or things that need to be filled out with the student and maybe the student isn't the most responsive, I'll just CC the parents on the email just to make sure that everybody saw that it needs to be sent back. But I think another way that parents can be involved is just to have that expectation of their student that they will work, and have that expectation that, okay yes they need to learn how to cook, how to do their own laundry, how to clean, because the parents aren't gonna be around forever right, and they also hopefully won't be following their student to college, so if they need those skills just like any other person. But on the flip side of that, we understand that for a college student, or college bound student it is normal for them not to have those skills. I think college bound students kind of figure out how to do their own laundry once they show up and they dye a white shirt red for the first time and then they're like, okay maybe I need to figure this out, so that's totally normal but I think yeah, for parents to have that expectation that their students work and most people I know had to have a summer job so they could pay for their gas, pay for their the clothes that they want, or the new phone, or you know what have you, so yeah just having that expectation that their student will go on in transition just like any other visual person, so yeah. Jeff: You brought up a good point about you know, the parents are probably their first advocate that they have coming along in life, and there's comes a point in that transition process where a student has to start considering taking over that advocacy, advocating for themselves, like when they don't get a book on time that they can't always depend on their TBI or disability services, they get to a point where they start to have take responsibility for laundry like you said, all that stuff. Kylee: Yep yep, we have a whole Student Handbook that we go through and it has expectations of you know all the documentation that we need before semester starts, but I think more importantly is taking a step back and saying, okay do you have the skills to actually go to college, do you have you know the advocacy skills, do you have the technology skills, do you have the technology that you actually need, the knowledge of the different apps, you know to get your books online, right now it's Jesse that's working with all of our students, but getting our transition tech involved and they come in for a tech assessment to see what they have right now and what they'll need with both technology and technology training. So I have a student right now we're getting her tech package in but also we're planning for the training that she'll need in preparation for going off to college because surprisingly, her typing skills aren't that great, so that's something she knows she really needs to work on because all of those papers that she's gonna be writing, she's gonna need those skills, yeah super exciting, skills that you'll need right. [Whoosh Sound Effect] Jeff: I've seen reports where like colleges said that people are coming in and they're not prepared, and I've also seen where people come in but they end up being like a week or two behind because they're just trying to use this new technology that they don't understand yet and you have to be able to hit the ground running when you enter college. Kylee: Right yes, I talk a lot about that you know, college is high school times ten, you know you don't have a whole week to learn about one chapter in a book, and then have a test on it maybe a week later, it's like five chapters in one week, so you have, yeah right exactly, you have to be able to hit the ground running. So making sure that they're connected with the disability services at their college and they know the ins and outs of how they ask for accommodations, if they need extra time with test taking, anything like that, knowing how to get all that stuff before they go into college. I talked to my students about how some teachers are fabulous with accommodations and some just don't want to deal with it, or they haven't really had to deal with it in the past, so having those advocacy skills are huge. Jeff: Yeah I always suggested when I went in, I learned right away that, send in an email to each teacher, each professor, six weeks in advance if you get that opportunity, to start setting up that communications, and get that underway, rather than trying to set something, because everyone's busy that first week. Kylee: Definitely yeah. I know when I went off to college for the first time, I was terrified to talk to any of my professors, but you don't have that you know option when you need accommodations, you just have to go for it, and feel you know, be comfortable, or maybe you don't have to be comfortable with it, but you have to be able to at least do it, so yeah having those skills is huge. Jeff: Yeah and it does get more comfortable, and as long as you do get comfortable with it, it just puts it back, you just move forward from there. Kylee: Right exactly. Jeff: What words of advice for someone who is transitioning from high school to college to the workplace? Kylee: I would say make sure that you have all of your technology training down, your orientation and mobility, make sure that you're comfortable with that. I think a lot of students are comfortable in their school settings, so some that have some vision may not even use their cane, but I think it's important when you're out in public especially when you're learning new locations to have those orientation mobility skills down, because yeah you will need them. Advocacy skills as well because you need to be able to talk to your employer and let them know what you need and feel comfortable with that, yeah it's very important. Jeff: Yeah because most colleges aren't that one building school. Kylee: Exactly yep, and a lot of the students that I work with we offer orientation mobility skills, multiple semesters so they can learn their new path, you know each time. After a student's been on campus for a couple of years they pretty much know the layout but, I have no problem each semester bringing in orientation mobility, you, just right away so they feel comfortable with where they're going. Jeff: Well that's great, Kylee how does someone get in contact with State Services for the Blind for the first time? Kylee: The best way to do it is to contact, if you're in the metro to contact our St. Paul office, and they will get you connected with Meredith Larsen, and Meredith does all of our orientation and intakes, and orientation is provided twice a month at different times, so you can come in, learn about all of our services and decide if this is the right program for you. If so then she'll meet with you one-on-one and do an intake and have you sign an application at that point and that kind of, your signing saying yes I'm dedicated to this program, and then from there you'll start working with a counselor. If your you're in the metro it'll be either me or Ashlyn, and if you're in Greater Minnesota there's different counselors out in those areas that also work with our transition youth. Jeff: That's perfect, well Kylee, once again thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come down to the studios here and sharing with us, believe me it's been a wealth of information, so thank you very much. Kylee: Yep, thank you. Jeff: It was a real pleasure talking to Kylee and be sure to check out the show notes where you can find out how to contact State Services for the Blind, and you can find the summer programs that are listed, and some job opportunities you could have for helping out at the summer programs, and to contact State Services in your state be sure to check out AFB.org where they have resources where you can find the services offered in your state. This podcast is produced in part by State Services for the Blind, live, learn, work, and play. [Music] And a big thanks goes out to Chi Chow for his beautiful music, and that's LChiChow on Twitter. Thank You Chi Chow. Once again, thanks for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time, bye-bye. [Music] [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, we can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.

Chef Jeff is an entrepreneur, a creative genius, and a connoisseur when it comes to event planning. Educated at the French Culinary Institute, his world renowned cakes are admired across the country and his catering company is booming with thousands of clients. With years of service associated with many community organizations such as the BeGr8 Foundation Inc. and his fraternity, Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc., Chef Jeff often takes his children’s Cupcake Class and young adults’ experience, “#CookingWithChefJeff to kitchens and venues around the country.

TVI Toolbox: Success Stories, Tools for Success - #BeMyEyes App, Meet Jeff Mihiletch  Blind Abilities presents the TVI Toolbox. Where the collaboration between Teachers, Counselors, Parents, Agencies and the Students themselves help enhance the opportunities for success. Transitioning from high school to college and the workplace is  a major step and the beginning of lifetime goals and aspirations. As Jeff Mihiletch, this month’s featured interview in the Success Stories portion of this podcast, puts it, “Braille is a tool he wished he would have given a better chance.”    From the TVI’s to the Agency counselor’s and program specialist, working together along with parents as well, is creating more opportunities and successes for Transition age students. Sharing experiences through Success Stories, sharing programs that make a positive impact, sharing ideas, findings, upcoming events and the Tools for Success all play a part in making the transition process a natural progression and better understood by all.     On The Horizon is a bulletin space for upcoming events, information and resources submitted by listeners and our staff. You can submit to On the Horizon by emailing Jessica Hodges. The Success Stories feature an experience of a Transition Student, whether they are attending college, preparing for college or are now employed, the Success Stories brings a positive and a sharing of the experience of transitioning from high school to college and the work place.   Here are the links to the information we bring to this episode.   Scholarships from the National Federation of the Blind   Perkins Program for Students   Blind, Inc Summer Programs   Summer Transition Program (STP) Extended School Year Program Deb Peterson at DPeterson@916schools.org     Check out your State Services by searching the Services Directory on the AFB.org web site.   State Services for the Blind of Minnesota   We offer tools and training for employment and for helping seniors remain independent and active. As Minnesota’s accessible reading source we also transcribe books and other materials into alternative formats, including audio and braille. We assist Minnesotans who are blind, DeafBlind, losing vision, or who have another disability that makes it difficult to read print. I hope you find what you need here. We've also created a Tips for Using Our New Website page. If you’d like to apply for services, learn more, or have more questions, just give us a call. You’ll find contact information for all of our offices on our contact page, or you can call our main office at 651-539-2300.   You can submit to the On The Horizons segment by email to jessica.Hodges@state.mn.us Thank you for listening. You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Full Transcript:   TVI Toolbox: Success Stories, Tools for Success - #BeMyEyes App, Meet Jeff Mihiletch (Music)     Dacia: It's your job, disability or not, to know what you bring to the table, and sell that. That's your job.   Narrator: Welcome to the blind abilities TVI Toolbox. I'm Jeff Thompson.   Dacia: Because they don't have any experience with vision loss, so they're thinking to themselves, "I don't know if I could do that if I couldn't see right. I'm not sure that they're going to be able to do that." That's what... there inner monologue isn't about you, it's about what they think that you can't do, and their bias.   Narrator: TVI toolbox is a tool for teachers, for agencies, for clients to enhance the opportunity and the understanding of transition services. Professionals talking about the services they provide. Teachers of the visually impaired talking about topics of transitioning from high school, to college, to the work place. Students talking about their journeys, there successes, and some of the barricades and brick walls that were in there way, and solutions, tips, and tricks on how they got through it.   Dasha: We try to help them develop resumes right from the beginning. We would like some body that even as young as fifteen sixteen to have a resume that they can continuously add to, to build on. It really puts in front of them a more realistic view of "Ok, well I can add this to my resume. I can do this because I can add that. This is going to bring value." It kind of gives them more of an ownership of there experience.   Narrator: That's (probable spelling mistake here,) Dasha van Alstine. She's an employment program specialist at state services for the blind, working with clients, counselors, and employees, to optimize the opportunities for successful employment.   Dasha: I always tell people, if you go into an interview, and you're thinking that you're not the best candidate, you're probably not.   Narrator: On this episode of TVI Toolbox, we'll be talking about employment. We'll be hearing more from Dasha van Alstine, and the success story today features Jeff Mihiletch, with A BS degree in Business Administration. And Jessica Hodges with On the Horizon, where she brings you recent news and events with particular interest in the transition process with a blindness perspective. And the tools for success spotlight is Be My Eyes. It's an ap that, well, kind of speaks for itself. Now, here's employment program specialist Dasha van Alstine. Dasha, welcome to blind abilities. Can you tell our listeners what your roll is at state services?   Dasha: Hi Jeff. I am a program specialist for the employment team at state services for the blind.   Narrator: Tell us a little more about the employment team.   Dasha: The employment team works with various counselors and customers on anything from the very beginning of how to choose a job goal, all the way up to when it's time to close your case. So are you ready, do you have everything you need, do you need additional training, we're there all along the way. Whereas a counselor looks at an entire situation, we look at everything from absolute employment   Narrator: Dasha, for a transition student, what would a first meeting with the employment team look like?   Dasha: That can be at any type of stage, it depends on... if somebody has done a lot of research various...market information on their own, we might not meet with any of us until later. Someone who really needs some help and some direction with trying to figure out what they want to be, and what that's going to look like, and where the doors are going to open, they might meet with us right away.   Narrator: So first they work with state services, then when it comes time to think about employment, that's when they get handed off to the employment team?   Dasha: Well, preferably, they wouldn't just get handed off to our team. We would want to have some sort of relationship with them from the beginning. I'll give you an example. A college student, someone who knows that they're college bound know they want to go to college to get to a career, we'll look at them right before it happens and say, "Ok, what is your job goal? What do you want to do? What are the various avenues to get there." We'll work on what is the most appropriate way from point A to point B, for you, with college in the middle there. And then, in college, a lot of times there will be some check ins. We'll check on them, hey, how's it going? Have you thought about an internship yet? Are you working during school? Do you need help finding something. You know, what can we do to assist you?" We make connections for them, and sometimes we help them find part time employment, or find there internship. A lot of times, we'll work with the school to try to figure that out with them, to try to get them more independent and not depending on us. And then, when they're getting ready to graduate, sometime before the last semester, we help the figure out, you know, it's time to start looking. Because ideally, you want a job before you graduate, you want that job to be ready for you.   Narrator: Dasha: With the age of transition students, I imagine that a lot of them have not had too much job experience. Does the employment team have a component for people to learn about job interviews and filling out resumes?   Dasha: It's different for each person. That begins whenever appropriate. Some people, especially our young people, We try to help them develop resumes right from the beginning. We would like some body that even as young as fifteen sixteen to have a resume that they can continuously add to, to build on. It really puts in front of them a more realistic view of "Ok, well I can add this to my resume. I can do this because I can add that. This is going to bring value." It kind of gives them more of an ownership of there experience. Every aspect of every case is so different. There are some people that need us to do the resume and then walk them through what we did. There's other people that we just give some guidance to, and they do it. you know, everything is so individualized, it's wherever it's appropriate for each individual case.   Narrator: That's great. Dasha, there's a saying, don't judge a book by it's cover, but in the employment situation, in job interviews, can you tell us a little bit about first impressions?   Dasha: First impressions are really important, especially if you have a vision loss, because there's a really good chance that whoever you're meeting has never met someone with a vision loss before. There's no back ground there. They're going to base whatever experience they have with you, and project that onto every other person that they ever meet in the future who has a vision loss. When you meet somebody, especially if you're going in for an interview, you want to make sure that first of all, you're nice to the receptionist, because if you're not nice to the receptionist, the person interviewing you is going to find out, and you're not going to get that job. Just saying, the receptionist, that's the barrier there. Be nice to them. And second of all, once you do meet somebody, and if you have to follow them, make sure that you're comfortable, and don't be afraid to ask for information. Left or right? Where's the room? Don't be afraid to ask those kinds of directions.. With first impressions, you want to make sure that you are well put together. You want to make sure that you don't go into a business with saggy clothes, or with dirty clothes. You want to make sure that your hair is, you know, presentable, that you're not wearing baseball caps. You also want to make sure that you can speak clearly, concisely, have some confidence, that's going to be really important to an employer. Even if you're just walking in to pick up an application. Just go to the receptionist, be nice, "Hi, you know, my name is so and so. I was wondering if you're hiring. Can I get an application? Even something as simple as that. That goes a a long way. You also want to make sure that when you do talk to somebody, especially if it's an interview, you're going to get that, "Tell me about yourself." You could even get that when you meet an employer at a job fair, or an internship fair. Tell me about yourself. You want to make sure, especially if you have more of an obvious disability, you want to make sure that you kind of address that in a way that makes it so they're not thinking about that, they're thinking about your skills. A lot of people make the mistake of never saying anything, and then an employer, the whole time that they're talking is thinking well... Because they don't have any experience with vision loss, so they're thinking to themselves, "I don't know if I could do that if I couldn't see right. I'm not sure that they're going to be able to do that." That's what... there inner monologue isn't about you, it's about what they think that you can't do, and their bias.  So it's up to you to make sure that you sell yourself. Sell your skills. Tell how you do things. Go into it with confidence. Know what your skills are ahead of time. Know what you have to offer  the employer, and just go into it that way. And this is not just with employers. This is also useful with your professors.   Narrator: Dasha, I was just doing an interview with a business owner, Susan Robinson. She said that she'd never hired a person because they had sight. She always hired a person because she felt they could best do the job that she needed to get done   Dasha: Yes, it's all about the what can you do for me. Employers hire because they have a job that they have to get done. They don't hire because they want to feel good. They don't hire because they want to spend a bunch of money. They do it because they have a job, and they have to get it done. So your job is to make sure that they know you can do that job, and not only that, but you can bring stuff to the table so you're the person can help them get that done. You're the best candidate, and this is why I always tell people, if you go into an interview, and you're thinking that you're not the best candidate, you're probably not. If you're going into an interview, and you can't even think of what you bring to offer to the table, the employer's not going to know. It's your job, disability or not, to know what you bring to the table, and sell that. That's your job.   Narrator: Selling it!"   Dasha: "Selling it."   Narrator: "That's what it comes down to, selling yourself, letting the employer know that you have a set of abilities that will help their company succeed. Well, there's that sound, so let's turn it over to Jessica Hodges with On the Horizon.   Jessica: "Good day to you all. There are many, many lovely events coming up on the horizon. First of all, the national federation of the blind has some awesome scholarships for students both nationally and state wide. To find out more about scholarships both in your state and at the national level, you can visit www.nfb.org. On the subject of college, Perkins has a program for college students where you live on there campus for nine months, and attend school close to them. It's a good way for college students to kind of get there feet underneath them and make sure that they are really ready, and it's a great way to get started with college. You can visit there webcite to find out more. The national braille press has a guide for those who are interested in apple watches called, "You and Your Apple Watch," by Anna Dresner. You can find that on their webcite, nbp.org. Blind incorporated, the well renown training center for the national federation of the blind in Minnesota has there summer programs coming up, and that means they are looking for both students and counselors. For more information on those, you can go to their webcite, www.blindinc.org. For the style program, ,they're looking for people from July Tenth through August fifteenth, and the buddy program is also looking for people from July Tenth through August Fifteenth. For the prep counselor positions, they are looking for people from June Tenth, to August Fifteenth. The prep is the young adult program, the style is a young adult program here in Minnesota, and the buddy program is the younger children. So, if you would like to know more about that ,visit their webcite, www.blindinc.org. Minnesota has a lovely program for transition aged students called the STP program. An extended school year program, the STP, or summer transition program, is a program designed for students between tenth and eleventh grade who are planning on working competitively and working independently. To get a brochure or have paperwork sent to your school, contact Deb Peterson, dpeterson@916schools.org. If you have any events you'd like included on the next horizon, please email jessica.hodges@state.mn.us. Thank you for staying tuned, and please listen to next time, as we'll have more events on your horizon.   Narrator: Well thank you Jessica Hodges. And for more information on all the events mentioned, check the show notes. for the links. And now, our tools for success spotlight. We bring you Be My Eyes. It's an application that hooks the phone to a person that will see through your camera what you're looking at and describe it for you. It's a personal assistant. It's free from the app store, and on Android. So we're going to demonstrate the iOS device on Apple, here's Be My Eyes. Siri? Open be my eyes.   VoiceOver: Be My Eyes. Call first available volunteer, button.   Narrator: It's ready to go. With a single finger double tap, you're activated, and you're ready to call. But lets swipe right, single finger swipe left to right.   VoiceOver: Settings, button.   Narrator: Double tap here   VoiceOver: Settings, heading.   Narrator: Now a flick to the right.   VoiceOver: Done, button.  Profile, heading. Personal details, Jeff Thompson, button   Narrator: Swipe to the right.   VoiceOver: Change email, button. Password, button. Languages, heading. Primary language, English, button. Other languages, button. Send us feedback, button. Frequently asked questions, button. Terms and privacy policy, button. Share be my eyes, button. Rate be my eyes, button. Connect with us, heading. Facebook, button. Twitter, button. Instagram, button. Youtube, button. Version: 2.1   Narrator: So this is upgraded, and as you can see you can share this, you can go follow them on Facebook, Twitter, and all the rest of the stuffs there. But one important thing here is this.   VoiceOver: Send us feedback, button.   Narrator: Send us feedback. This allows you to connect up right with the developers of the app in case you have an issue. You don't have to tweet it out on Twitter and complain or anything like that on Facebook. You can just go here, and send it straight to the main office. There you go. So let's go back. I'm going to do a four finger single tap, near the top of the screen.   VoiceOver: Settings, heading.   Narrator: Swipe once to the right.   VoiceOver: Done, button.   Narrator: Single finger double tap.   VoiceOver: Call first available volunteer, button.   Narrator: All right, so at this point, if I single finger double tap, I'm getting online, so I'd better have something ready for them to do for this demonstration. I think it's coffee time.       VoiceOver Using the rear camera. Please wait. Finding the first available volunteer.   (ringing sounds)   Narrator: And this is where the be my eyes app. ..   VoiceOver: We are still trying to find an available volunteer.   Narrator: searches for someone that speaks English, someone that's in my time zone. So it searches the world basically, and tries to come up with someone who is best suited for answering my questions. Now this time varies. I've had people pick up in twelve seconds. I've had people pick up in... oh...two minutes. But typically, it's around that thirty second mark. And for privacy reasons, I've changed the voice of the volunteer so it's not detectible.   VoiceOver: Connected.   Volunteer: "Hello." (there was another word there but I couldn't for the life of me make it out.)   Narrator: Hello. Hi, how are you?   Volunteer: I'm all right, how about yourself?   Narrator: I'm all right. I have a question. I have a kurig machine here, this one.   Volunteer: Yep.   Narrator: And when I push this down, it's supposed to give me a choice here for ounces.   Volunteer: The light is hitting in a way I can't read. I think the... ok, that's better. You have... it says it's ten ounce, and there's an arrow at the top and an arrow at the bottom.   Narrator: So down here?   Volunteer: Up a little hire. Right there is where it says ten ounce, yep now it's at eight ounces. You're pushing the down button. How do you want it to be?   Narrator: I want it at eight. Is that it?   Volunteer: Ok.   Narrator: So then the other buttons up here, what are they?   Volunteer: Well, that would be increasing the amount,   Narrator: Ok,   Volunteer: and when you're ready, then you move your finger to the left   Narrator: Ok.   Volunteer: And use this button to make it go, let's see what happens.   (kurig noises)   Volunteer: It's brewing.   Narrator: Well there we go. Thank you very much.   Volunteer: You're very welcome.Have a good day."   Narrator: You too.   VoiceOver: End call, button. Alert. Are you sure you want to disconnect? No. Yes. Yes button.   Narrator: And that was a very nice volunteer. And it wasn't mini mouse, believe me. That voice was changed. And there we go. We got hot cocoa coming. All right, so after the experience is over, this is what we get.   VoiceOver: Review your experience, heading.. Thanks for your call. Please let us know if you had any problems during this call, be it either technical or personal. I experienced problems, button. I had a good call, button.   Narrator: And that's it. that's all there is to this free app. it's be my eyes in app store, and be my eyes on android in the google play store. And in this success story, we bring you Jeff Mihiletch, who has utilized the services of state services for the blind for many years, from elementary school, high school, college, and the work place. Jeff has found success, and is currently employed, and invited us down to his south Minneapolis office to chat with us. So please welcome Jeff Mihiletch. We hope you in joy.   Narrator: Welcome to blind abilities, I'm Jeff Thompson, and I'm downtown south Minneapolis with Jeff Mihiletch, and he is employed and has used state services for the blind before. How are you doing Jeff?   Jeff: Good morning, I'm doing good.   Narrator: Can you tell us a little bit about your job and what you do?   Narrator: I am Jeff Mihiletch. I work in the snap employment and training program, and that is about people that receive food support, snap benefits that they used to call food stamps. If you are an able bodied adult without dependants, it's mandatory now that you be job searching, and my team does the job searching orientation classes and case management for clients that are in that sector of the snap program. I was originally hired for data management, so my job is to look at the referrals every day of new clients coming in, all the different elements, who they are, nationality, when there orientation class is, location and time, and I put it all in a spreadsheet. Then I take that spread sheet, move it into a different spread sheet so it's statistically meant for the entire year, and that's my daily task that I do. I also have broadened my job duties a little bit. My team does orientation class three times a week for new people that are coming onto the snap EMt program. I help out here at the sabathanie center with the Tuesday morning orientation class. So it's a chance for me to get up in front of a group and talk, and move around, helps give my coworkers a little break, because they need to do that orientation class three times a week, and as you can imagine it gets a little repetitive, so they were totally thrilled when I decided to volunteer myself to help out with that orientation class.   Narrator: So Jeff, on a daily basis, what kind of accessible devices or tools do you utilize for your job?   Jeff: I use Jaws extensively. I have a little bit of vision, so I do use zoomtext sometimes, but only for spot reading, if I can't find a formula or something in my excel sheet with jaws. Primarily though, it is Jaws, almost probably ninety five, ninety eight percent of the time.   Narrator: What about in your personal life. Do you use a smart phone with access to it?   Jeff: Yeah, in my personal life I have an iPhone seven. I use VoiceOver, a couple different voices, one for Siri, one for the VoiceOver functionality of it. My work, I have a phone for my work, because the phone that is in everyone's laptops, the soft phone from Sisco, is not screen reader accessible, and so that's a reasonable accommodation, my employer provides me an iPhone for my work. So I feel kind of a little geekish, because I walk around with two phones when I'm at work, my personal phone and my work phone.   Narrator: that's status isn't it?   Jeff: I'm glad that they were able to make that accommodation and provide an iPhone for my work phone calling.   Narrator: Now Jeff, when you applied here, how did you  get the job? how did accommodations work for you and what was that process like?   Jeff: The way I found the job was I had a friend of mien who was blind who works for the county, has been with the county for almost thirty years, and he got a phone call from someone, my boss, who was looking to fill a position, a newly created position. My job did not exist before. And she specifically was looking for someone that had a visual disability. And so she reached out to my friend who was blind and worked for the company to find out and assess any barriers that their were, to see how successful he was at doing his job, and to see how many barriers there were, and from there, he told me about the fact that she was looking for someone who was visually impaired to take this new job. I kind of jumped on that band wagon, and followed up with her, and long story short had an interview, and was hired. My job is not a permanent job. It's a two year contract. I'm a limited duration person, and the snap program, the food stamp program is federal funded. So the county writes my check, but salary comes from the feds, from the agricultural program.   Narrator: So Jeff, in your career, education, did you utilize state services for the blind?   Jeff: Yeah, I did. All through my education. Elementary school I had a rehab counselor that used state services for the blind all the way through that, through college went to (spelling) babija university, BS in business administration, and minor in psychology and chemical dependency. And state services for the blind helped me out with tuition and books, and that type of thing.   Narrator: Great. What is transportation like for you, working in south Minneapolis here?   Jeff: In he morning to go into work, I take metro mobility, because it's a relatively direct shot, although sometimes I can get to work in ten minutes, and sometimes two hours, so that's the downside of metro mobility. Going home at night, I do take a city bus. I have to go downtown, and transfer to an express. That's how I do transportation. Not looking forward to winter time, I will say.   Narrator: Great. So Jeff, Being someone that has used state services, who has transferred from high school to college to the work place, what suggestions would you have for someone who is in those shoes today looking towards there future?   Jeff: I would say if you are a braille user, or have the potential to be a braille user, but also use screen readers, I would really highly recommend still doing the braille thing.   Narrator: You said you use Jaws and PC. Now, in the workplace, there's always the debate, you know, should people have a PC or a Mack, and I found out myself that most businesses are Microsoft based, so what would you suggest for someone who's learning technology?   Jeff: The county uses PCs, HP brand. Actually, we just rolled out new laptops and we moved to Microsoft 2010 and office 2016. I mean it all depends on the work environment, but you are correct most of the time that it's PC based.   Narrator: Jeff, do you want to talk about some of your past jobs?   Jeff: Sure. A lot of my job history is kind of broken into clumps. The first is social service, working with developmentally delayed adults, and the second chunk of job history is kind of more customer service type. So the first part, the social service, I kind of fell into that. I moved to Minneapolis after finishing my degree at Bemidji state university, and was really-really desperate for a job, couldn't find one, and it was to the point that I couldn't afford my apartment. I took a job as a live in in a group home for developmentally delayed adults. A good chunk is a little more customer service related, I worked in a large call center for computer hardware dispatch, so I was doing in bound calls with customers and technicians out in the field. Some other jobs I had over the years. I had a really really short gig. I was a very small commodities broker. I found the job through one of the venders that state services for the blind hires. They were looking for someone to do phone work and I was hired and given the job. But the screen reader didn't work at all with their customer management web page that they had. We tried to make it work. After six weeks they let me go, just because it wasn't working out. I also worked for a guy who ran one of the vending stands in saintpaul, and I would fill in for him in the concessions stand while he was out in the field filling vending machines. Did that for a while, and some other kind of odd jobs. I actually at one time was self employed. I went to massage school, became a massage therapist, and tried to do that to make a living. It's a really hard field. It's very seasonal. So that's a little overview of some of my job history.   Narrator: Sounds like you're a real go getter. people feel insecure about going into job interviews and that process. And it can be daunting to someone that hasn't done it before. What's your experience like when you go into a job interview?   Jeff: The interview process itself, I mean, I'm a partial vision, and it's always difficult to know whether to disclose that up front or not. And though there were times in my life when I would disclose that on the phone up front, and then there were other times when I did not. And it's hard to know if disclosing it up front would automatically disqualify me even before I walked in, or if walking in with a white cane and bumping against a desk or a coffee table or something would have disqualified me. It's always a big debate when you're a partial whether or not to disclose it. that was the one nice thing about my current job. My boss is aware of my current disability and I did not have to deal with that disclosure type thing. I had to deal with coworkers a little bit, and that was a challenge. Again, because I'm partial, I can see to navigate a little bit, but you know, I can't figure out who people are until they say something. When you're a partial, it's harder for other people to grasp of what you can and can't see.   Narrator: Jeff, did you ever go through a training center?   Jeff: I did. When I was in seventh grade I did a summer school thing at fairbolt. As an adult I did a couple different stints at VLR, adjustment to blindness training program. The focus for both of those times when I went was Jaws and screen readers. But I also did cooking class, the independent skills, worked in the wood shop, which was a really eye opening experience so to speak. I'd never used a table saw. I'd never used a router, that kind of thing. And it was so cool to actually create something myself out of a chunk of wood and have the skill set to do that. Yeah, I've been to VLR a couple times, they do really good stuff. I highly recommend them. And they were the ones the second time through. They were the ones that got me to Jaws. Because before, I would really try to use zoomtext as much as I could, and it was causing headaches and back strain, because I was leaning forward too much. So the second time I went through, I said, "I really want to get to the point where I can faze out magnification and just do jaws mostly. And so they got me to the point where I could use it exclusively and functionally. Yeah, the adjustment to blindness centers were very helpful.   Narrator: That's vision loss resources on Franklin and Lyndale down in Minneapolis. Well, I want to thank you for coming on to blind abilities and sharing your story, your journey, thank you very much.   Jeff: You are welcome. Hopefully my perspective is useful and helpful for you young people out there, you know, in the path of education and early job searching. Good luck to you, and I wish I would have had this technology when I was going to college. It would have made my college experience much easier, much less stressful, maybe a few less gray hairs.   Narrator: I don't think we can get around the hairs, we can blame it on whatever we want but... well thank you very much Jeff.   Jeff: Thank you very much   Narrator: It was a real pleasure talking to Jeff Mihiletch and learning about his transitional journey from high school to college to the workplace, and his experiences job to job. And you can find out more about state services for the blind and the services they can offer you on the web at https://mn.gov/deed/ssb. And in other states, be sure to contact your state services, and see what services they have for you. And be sure to check the show notes for the American foundation of the blind. They have a link to all the state services in all the states. Stay tuned next month where we bring you episode three of TVI toolbox. And a big thank you goes out to CheeChau for his beautiful music that we use for the podcast. Thank you CheeChau. You can follow Cheechau on Twitter @lcheechau. Thanks for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time, by by.

Host of the Lady to Lady podcast, and the world's foremost Britney Spears expert, Tess Barker is on the show to chat about her Yale speaking engagement, escaping to Costa Rica, and her new podcast dedicated entirely to the Instagram account of Britney Spears. Bonus! Tess has given a nickname to fans of this show! Tune in for that, and let me know what you think. Contact us on Twitter (@exitstrategypod) or email the show at exitstrategypod@gmail.com Looking for the perfect holiday gift for your ol' pal Jeff? I'm easy! Just leave a review and rating on iTunes! It's the gift that keeps on giving (my podcast an advantage over other similar podcasts in the iTunes search algorithm)!

What do you do when you want to shift your relationship from the mundane towards something more transcendent? Is this something you could experience with just anyone? And if not, how do you know if your relationship has this potential? Also...what happens when the podcast guest starts interviewing the host?! In this week’s episode, we’re diving deep into the question of conscious relationship a bit differently, through a conversation with writer, seeker, and spiritual activist Jeff Brown.  Jeff is the author of the books Soulshaping and An Uncommon Bond, and director of the documentary Karmageddon: The Movie. His words and wisdom shine light on the journey of becoming more and more who we are meant to be, should we choose to follow that path. It’s not meant to be easy, but it is totally worth it - and in today’s episode of Relationship Alive we detail some of the important steps along the way. Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome, to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. On this show, over and over again, we've been talking about the topic of conscious relationship. What does it mean to evolve your relationship to some place new, some place different? How do you recognize the patterns that are just about unhealthy relating, things that you've inherited from the culture, from your parents, from your friends, from your karma and how do you identify those things and get to a place where you can move past them to unchartered territory - that's about coming together clearly with your partner and helping each other, heal, grow and have a mission in the world, that's maybe something you do together or maybe it's supporting each other in your separate missions, but in the end, wanting both you and your partner to shine more brightly in the world and to do that in a way that enhances your connection as opposed to growing you apart? Neil Sattin: On today's show we are having a very special guest, Jeff Brown, who is the author of An Uncommon Bond which is a novel about conscious relationship. He's also the author of Soulshaping and he is followed by thousands and thousands of people on Facebook and elsewhere who tune in to the way that he writes and how it evokes new insight, new states of consciousness and it's a real pleasure to have him here with us today to talk about his book, to talk about conscious relationship and to talk about soul shaping and how we can craft our growth and development in a way that's generative for you and for the world around you as well. So thank you, Jeff Brown, for being here on Relationship Alive with us today. Jeff Brown: My pleasure Neil. I'm also quite grateful for this amazing work you're doing in the world, trying to raise awareness of conscious relationship and really deepen into the dialogue. I think it's such an important step forward for all of us. Neil Sattin: Thank you. Thank you, yeah, it's something I'm incredibly passionate about and it's always a pleasure to have, to be able to sit down with someone like you who also is equally passionate about, thinking about where we're going along with where we've been. So maybe we could start by just, I've already mentioned your books and, oh by the way, we will have a show guide for this episode so if you're interested in downloading that, you can visit Neilsattin.com/soulshaping or you can text the word 'PASSION' to the number 33444 and follow the instructions and we'll get that show guide to you. So, let's maybe just start with, what is soulshaping? Since that is at the core of your work. Jeff Brown: Soulshaping was really, I mean, when I had begun to write my first book, I was just trying to make sense of my own experience and what ultimately made sense to me at that time was that, as I looked back on my life, it seemed that I had some internalized what James Hillman called the innate image or what I have come to call 'soul scriptures', that I had some encoded sacred purpose, that included key relational figures, particular callings to certain work in the world, certain archetypal transformations that I was here to go through as though I was somehow shaping my soul towards wholeness and as I looked at every stage of my life, there were a lot of seemingly insignificant experiences in moments but there were these very fundamentally relevant and significant moments, externally sourced but also often coming from within, that seemed to be pointing me in the direction of a particular encoded path that I was here to walk in order to move in the direction of a more inclusive and whole centered consciousness. Neil Sattin: And so part of your work, I know you do soulshaping sessions with people as well, so you're writing about it and then you're also helping people discover that path for themselves? Jeff Brown: I am but I defined it very broadly. I think what shifted for me when I began, is I was very focused on callings. The calling to write Soulshaping, your work in the world right now. You know, Oprah Winfrey has worked to bring that message, whatever that message is or was, to the world and what I've come to believe and understand and so much of my session work is focused on, is really dealing with the unresolved emotional material. Because for me, I grew most in my spirituality through the evolution of my emotional processes. For me, emotional maturation and spiritual maturation are synonymous. I don't distinguish the two, that's why I'm so deeply opposed to split off or dissociative views of spirituality, ideas of enlightenment that exist, independent of the emotional body, the unresolved ego, the story that is yet to be processed, because for me, this is where most of the transformation happened. Jeff Brown: At the end of a deeper profound emotional process, I found that I was able to hold the space for the everything in a much more inclusive way. So soul shaping for me now is more than callings and archetypes. It's really, really about getting into that material that we hold individually and that we bring forward from the unresolved collective and doing the work that allows us to transform our individual and collective consciousness, so that we could move individually and collectively in the direction of a more inclusive or whole centered consciousness. Neil Sattin: And that's one thing that I really appreciated in reading An Uncommon Bond and I think you even mentioned it in your own notes at the end. This need to bring spirit into your embodiment, and so much of what I talk about and what my partner Chloe and I work on in the world is, allowing your body to be included in that experience, not in a way that is dissociating from your body, but where your somatic experience is actually intrinsic and gives you such a wealth of information about what's happening with you on those more subtle levels. I like how you did that in your book, and emphasize that... Jeff Brown: Well, I don't even understand how one has any experience of anything independent of the body. I think that all of that is just nonsensical for me. If I look back at the experience that inspired An Uncommon Bond that profound opening, all of it happened through my somatic structure. I felt as though I entered and opened and we opened together into some kind of a portal of experience, that seemed to transcend my embodied experience, but I'm not so sure that's true, I wasn't trained in the art of ecstasy, when ecstasy came my way, I didn't know how to hold it or contain it somatically and somehow imagined it was happening independent of my body. Jeff Brown: But in fact, every single piece of that experience was happening through the body and the self hood, that was the container for the experience and I'm not so sure that we're going to get anywhere, particularly if we're trying to break through the patterns that obstruct our ability to actualize love between ourselves and others, if we don't go deep back into the somatic structure and work the selfhood and work the story and work what's held in the cellular structure, in order to transform it in the direction of being able to be more open and available and sustaining of love when it arises. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I think for us, one thing that's been so profoundly transformative has been what happens in the quietness that, when Chloe and I are together, and I'm just speaking from my experience here, in the quietness and paying attention to what arises, what sensations arise, and even just speaking to those without labeling them, but just saying like, "Oh, this is where I'm experiencing some tension right now." or "I'm feeling this heat in this part of my body... " Those sorts of things end up becoming... The word that's popping into my head is transportational. They bring us somewhere to different levels of experience that wouldn't happen if you were focusing on the kind of intimacy that's just about getting each other excited and getting each other off. Jeff Brown: Right. Neil Sattin: I'm curious for you, the title of your novel is An Uncommon Bond and I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about what that even means, to have An Uncommon Bond? Jeff Brown: I think we may have to rely on definition, it's a little bit lengthy but maybe the first part of it. I had an experience in '98 and I had no words for this experience but this experience changed my life and I was doing a masters at Saybrook. I was at Saybrook University in San Fransisco doing a Humanistic Psych degree, a masters and it just so happened that, right at the seeming end of that connection, Jeanne Achterberg, who had written about uncommon bonds and had co-defined the term, I believe with Donald Rothberg, I was doing an Uncommon Bond weekend and I was oblivious, I had no language for this profound experience and I was in a really profoundly confused place and walked in that room and suddenly felt like somebody understood what my experience was. Let me just read the first paragraph maybe of the definition. Neil Sattin: That would be great. Jeff Brown: Yeah, "Uncommon Bonds are love connections that are sourced in the transcendent and transpersonal realms. The couple feels destined to have met, their connection is sourced in grace. This often leads to an experience of parapsychological or paranormal events, such as synchronicity, soulendipities, and non-local communications that defy known laws of time and space. There's a knowing of pure recognition of the other, a feeling of being cut from same cloth, a sense of having occupied the same body in a previous life, or perhaps one soul residing in two bodies. The lovers experience a prayer of gratitude and a sigh of relief as though coming home after decades of wandering, a transpersonal energy dances within and between the couple, spiritual practice is important to them, since the relationship is often experienced as the premiere spiritual engagement, an outgrowth of a relationship with the absolute." Jeff Brown: And then it goes on to say that, "The relationship polishes the rough diamond of the soul, for this reason, the relationship is sometimes dark, arduous, complex, accompanied by many dark nights of the soul. At the same time, there's a sense of the soul work could not happen in any other way than through the relationship, repeated dancing back and forth, no self, no disappearing wave to particle and back, characterizes the growing, changing, polishing and refining process." Jeff Brown: It's the profound crack open in the presence of another who feels destined to have walked your way in this lifetime. Feels deeply familiar even if you don't believe in past lives, you have this experience and you're certain that they existed and at the same time, at this stage of human development, because of where we're at in terms of understanding the shadow, they are remarkably difficult to sustain and particularly if one or both people in the dynamic are not egoic-ly strong enough to hold to their center and the merging, usually the studies indicate, Jeanne's studies that usually they end up breaking up unless they encounter each other or re-encounter one another at a much older age. Neil Sattin: Interesting. Jeff Brown: It's just too much to hold. It's just too much to hold. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And I think because, and this is why these kind of connections can sometimes just knock you on your ass, it's like it can... It takes you to that place where you have to recognize at some level, your dysfunction, as well as those transcendent states of, oh my God! I just met the most amazing person and they're... If it has all those feelings of reconnecting on a deep, mystical level. Jeff Brown: And that's part of the problem. And what you said earlier was true, they knock you down to your ass. Basically, they pull you up and out and that may just be because we just don't know how we get to orient that experience or to have that experience in a way that's integrated with our humanness, right? We don't have that training and I just don't know if we're at that stage developmentally where we can hold all of that at one time, that's the work. That's the work of conscious relationship. To be able to bring together the... Something called the transcendant, if in fact there is any way to transcend and the imminent. And in my experience, that's exactly what happened. Was a transport of experience or what you call a transportational experience but the opening into the light, the light was so powerful and profound, it could not help but reveal the shadow. And of course, not only our shadow, we were walking into the collective shadow in that experience because you can't have one without the other. You can't have a spirituality that only allows you to have ecstatic experience without also having the portal open to the shadow, the emergence of the shadow. Jeff Brown: So we entered into both of those places and then it just simply becomes a question of whether we're equipped, whether we're supported, whether we're capable and how toxic is our unresolved emotional material. Because if it's too toxic, if there's too much in the way of an abandonment wound, or a jealousy wound, or a betrayal wound, or whatever it is that you're carrying, it becomes almost impossible to sustain it because it just becomes too painful. Neil Sattin: Now, we spoke a little bit before the interview officially started and I come down pretty strongly on the level of, not that everyone has to stay together, like if you find someone and you fall in love that somehow you're like, you have to be together for the rest of your lives, that's not where I am. However, I do feel like there's a journey of skill building and opening and healing that could actually bring most people to this transcendent place. That's just my belief and I'm curious to know where you come down on that in terms of, do all connections have the potential to be Uncommon Bonds versus not. Jeff Brown: Yeah. I'm writing about this on an individual level in my current book. It is very similar to what people are doing individually, they're trying to pull up and out of the humanness in order to have some kind of an ecstatic or inclusive or unity consciousness experience. And then they find it's unsustainable when they try to come back into the world and they have to integrate with the world, and they have to confront their material. The unresolved material that they're actually carrying in their bodies. Jeff Brown: I think that the problem is this, if I think of dynamics I've had that started really on a ground or pragmatic level, they didn't have that element of pull up and out. They didn't have what we might call a mystical aspect. Usually, there's not enough charge in the connection to want to go through that process or to believe that you're gonna land at a place where you're going to have an expansive experience together. So usually, it starts with something that pulls you up and out that feels like there's some profound joy potentially waiting for you, if you can do some work along the path. Jeff Brown: But what I do believe, what does make sense to me is that something happens in the earth bound work, the relational work, the work that you're doing in your partnership, I'm sure, around the unresolved material that emerges, the social anxiety, the discomfort. All the levels of triggering that are happening in dynamics that have some charge to them. That if you can see that process through, and I don't think a lot of people have. We don't have a lot of love elders to talk to about this yet Neil, but I think that they do, that I have a feeling that they do integrate back into an experience of that ecstatic union in a way that feels more real to me, more sustainable for sure and may have a remarkably different tenure or resonance than the experience, for example, that I had in the initiating Uncommon Bond experience. Jeff Brown: I'm stuck with this. I'm not exactly sure which way to go with... I can't really fully answer your question because I'm still trying to figure that out myself. But I do know for sure that if you don't come back and do the earth bound work and you don't weave all the threads together within you and break through all of the obstructions within you that, for sure the experience that you're having is unsustainable. Neil Sattin: Can we get really practical for a moment and talk about what that process of resolving could look like for someone? And maybe even what's a step or two that someone could take after they listen to this episode of the podcast that would help them move along that journey. Jeff Brown: Okay, so let's say you've met somebody and you've had this awakening, we'll call it an awakening experience with them. And you feel like you've entered into some portal that feels beautiful, delicious and at the same time feels vulnerable and terrifying, or something. Then I think, probably what you would begin to do if you wanted to sustain it and deepen it and grow through it without knowing necessarily if this is someone who'll be with you for life, you don't know that really yet, is you would begin to work probably somatically to uncover all of the levels of material that are getting in the way. Jeff Brown: So for example, if you find yourself in that opening, suddenly feeling super triggered by the fact that this other person is presumably looking at other women, for example, and they may feel like they're just looking at them as they passed by them on the street, but a jealousy trigger might arise because now you have so very much to lose because your heart is so deeply opened. You have two choices, you either continue to sustain the reactivity that comes up rising in the trigger, or you decide you're going to work on your historical material. Past life aside, working on that, I don't know so much about that, but working somatically with a somatic-based psychotherapist, maybe a bioenergetic or core energetic or somatic experiencing therapist to really go deep into the caverns in the body to find out where the material is sourced, where it comes from and to try to work your way through to a more healed or transformed experience around it, so that when you re-engage in the connection and your partner happens to look at a woman walking down the street, you're not so triggered that you're going to obstruct the development of the connection. Neil Sattin: Yeah. So there's so much there in terms of being able to recognize that you have a trigger even happening and going through some sort of process to resolve whatever is stuck there that's causing the trigger. And with a jealousy trigger, it could be that there's something there, there's some reason that your safety radar is activated and that would be something to address in your coupleship. Jeff Brown: And to determine whether or not it's based in reality, or whether it's based in your holdings, right? Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Jeff Brown: The way I think of it more broadly is that if I think of my grandparents or my parents, they were organized relationally around a survivalist construct. They defined who they were by what put food on the table, and whatever roles or duties have been culturally conditioned into them, and the way that the system held that. Now, we're at the very beginning of this bridge crossing. And as a result of that, moving in the direction of authenticity as our orienting principle, that is we relate on the basis of who we really are, not on some basis of some role, duty, adaptation, disguise, or mask that allows us to get through a survivalist world. We're opening the door to a whole range of material that was really never been attended to by mostly anybody in historical terms. Certainly not in our family lineage, at least not most of us. This is the hardest time for everybody because it means if you're going to go on what we're calling a conscious relationship journey, which for me is an authentic relationship journey, you're going to confront a gigantic tsunami of unresolved material that you're holding and that's deep within the collective. Jeff Brown: You need to be brave, you need to be patient, you need to be incredibly realistic. And a lot of people are not realistic, they're dealing with fire, they don't understand what that really means. It means it's gonna go on for years and years and probably always be part of your interface because we're the first path travelers crossing the bridge towards an authentic connection. And we're carrying an enormous amount of baggage with us. Neil Sattin: Yeah. I'm letting your words wash over me because... And I'm thinking about how our parents and grandparents, because they were oriented around survival, then that was an orienting principle that allowed them to brush things under the rug or to live in pain without resolving it. Jeff Brown: They had a system. They had a system and a number of premises and beliefs that just allowed that to happen. "Don't look back." There's a million cliches that relate to that experience. They didn't expect anything different. They have no idea that anything else could even exist in that world and probably it wouldn't have been congruent with the way the world was organized. It's still really not. It takes a lot of time that we don't have to do this deeper work. And my concern is that people get an unrealistic vision of possibility for how quickly they're going to get there. I think that we need to understand we are doing the work of generations, we need to not be so damn hard on ourselves when we can't quite work a piece out, we need to allow ourselves to just step back and celebrate our little tiny victories 'cause in collective terms, they're humongous and not hold to some vision of possibility that's not sustainable or possible sociologically in one lifetime. That's not to be discourage us from doing the work, it's beautiful, it's beautiful work. But let's also be realistic about it. Neil Sattin: I was like, and yet we're gonna try. And there's... Jeff Brown: Absolutely. Neil Sattin: And there's some tension in there too because the temptation would be to, now that you're not orienting around survival necessarily but you still have to maintain. So you still have to somehow survive... Jeff Brown: We're still in a survivalist world Neil. We still have to adapt and mask and make a living and the whole culture economically is built around masking and branding and putting on a show and putting away your feelings and not throwing tantrums in the marketplace and all that stuff. It's mostly inauthentic. So that's hard stuff and then you gotta come back home to and wanna reconnect to the subtle realms, you wanna do conscious armoring, you wanna reach a stage where you go into the marketplace, you put on the armoring you have to, but you're conscious enough to know to come home and take it off. Not always that easy to take it off if you're trying to make a living and striving and grinding it out in the marketplace. And sometimes I know couples that get into this place where they're so impatient with each other because the partner comes home and they're saturated in the energy of the marketplace. Well, that's because we're just at the beginning of authenticity as a way of being and our social structures and economic structures aren't even built around any of this yet. Jeff Brown: So we have to be realistic. Let me just say my experience... My initiating Uncommon Grounds experience taught me two things, two amazing things in all of that suffering and all that ecstasy. One is the possibilities that exist between two humans, in my view are so much more profound. I mean all this work that's been done around Wilber sketching models of consciousness with men sitting in meditation caves, I'm not interested in any of that. To me that is just patriarchal spirituality, it's safer, it's easier. I know why they focus there but to me it's the tiniest fragment of possibility compared to what's possible between two hearts. Because my experience was not only did we open to another portal, I felt as though there was a way in which if we could have kept going we could have actually co-created some aspect of this universe with love as the transformative device for that. It is... We're singing about love not knowing what the hell we're talking about, but we're moving in the right direction. I mean there's a reason why we're here and we feel love for one another. It is the direction to go. We're not just here together to keep each other company, we're here together to show each other God. Jeff Brown: The other thing I learnt is how far we are for being able to sustain and deepen into that experience because of the stage we're at in the collective. Because the shadow is everywhere. Everyone is a trauma survivor if we compare their human experience to the realm of the most subtle humane vulnerable heart open possibility. So, we're going in the right direction, we got a real super long way to go and then we just have to decide if it's worth the energy that it's gonna take to get us some part of the way there. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I think it's worth it. I totally think it's worth it. Jeff Brown: You do, yeah, well, that's why you're doing this podcast. And I think it's worth it, and I also understand why some people who are carrying too much stuff or have too many practical challenges or don't have enough relational support because there is very little relational support out there for this kind of work, I can understand why they say, "Fuck it, it's not worth it. I'm just gonna have a more practical connection and put my energy somewhere else because the relational field is so challenging." It's all most people can do to manage and identify their own material. To put that two people in a room trying to do that and then weave the dynamic piece together and what comes up in the dynamic, it's extraordinary. Hard, brave, profound, terrifying work. Neil Sattin: Something that I think is ironic, 'cause I'm just pondering like well, why... How did we even end up here in conscious relationship land? And I think that the irony at least as I'm seeing it right now is that, it's the the cultural idea that you can meet someone and they can be your your hero, you can have that love that lasts forever, that engages you in like the practical question of well, how is that really possible? And especially if you're not willing to settle for... Well, my grandparents were together forever but they never had a kind word to say about each other or that sort of thing. Or frequently had an unkind word to say, [chuckle] let's just say it that way. So it's diving into that question around what gets you to the long term that I think takes you out of the common way of experiencing relationship which we center around - like how much dopamine we get from it, how much exhilaration we feel, how romanced we are and it moves us because that in and of itself isn't sustainable. Its sustainable when you merge that with the kind of healing work that you're talking about that takes energy and attention and intention 'cause it doesn't just happen on its own. Jeff Brown: Right. Neil Sattin: I didn't mean to monologue there. [laughter] Jeff Brown: Oh it's no problem. I didn't wanna respond I think what you said was absolutely true. Neil Sattin: So it gets me wondering then, if that's true, from your perspective, how would a partner bring attention to this, to... Like if you're in a relationship and you're caught in, like the first part of your book "An Uncommon Bond", I was frustrated, it was almost like how... Because it's portraying, this aspect of relationship and it... To me it almost felt like how there are all these songs on the radio that I can't even listen to anymore, that used to be themes for my life but now I just... I hear it and it just... I'm kinda like ugh, I don't wanna listen to that. So there's this question, if you know you're in that dynamic what's a pathway? What's a step in the right direction? Especially how do you bring that to your partnership? Jeff Brown: Sorry, define that dynamic? Neil Sattin: If you recognize like "Oh, We're just all over the map and we're getting triggered left and right and what we need to do is actually come to a recognition that what's required is attention and intention on our healing journey as well as our romantic journey. How do I bring that to a partner? Jeff Brown: Well, that depends on the partner. Probably, gently at first but at some point probably very directly. There really isn't a choice. If you're not going to fall back to a survivalist framework for a dynamic. The term "conscious relationship" doesn't work for me 'cause consciousness is so bloody relative, you know? And it implies everybody before was unconscious and like "we're conscious". And I mean, compared to where we're gonna be in 300 years, we're also unconscious. So, I think of it as just getting authentic, an authentic form of relatedness, and I think that every couple decides how far they're gonna go in the direction of authenticity, of getting real with who they are and what lives below the surface and all the stuff that they see flying around in the dynamic and taking it seriously and understanding that it's real. Not looking at it through the lens of ungrounded spirituality which pretends that everything about the personality is unreal, but the ecstatic experience is real, well that's just ungrounded and nonsensical. And not moving in the direction of pragmatism, where you decide to just accept that's just the bullshit of life and you're gonna keep yelling and screaming and abuse each other and keep moving forward. Jeff Brown: But every couple has to decide that, they have to have the conversation, somebody has to have the conversation, and we've all been part of that. I've been part of that conversation when I absolutely and utterly refuse to do the work. And I've been part of the conversation and the experience that initiated bond that then inspired Uncommon Bond, with somebody who absolutely refused to do the work. I had both experiences. At some point you just have to decide, you're either gonna break up, you're gonna embrace survivalism as a way of being, or you're gonna move in the direction of an immoral wakening, and authentic connection. Just initiate the conversation as gently as possible, it will often end up being a shouting match, because somebody very often, this was the experience with the Uncommon Bond studies. One partner wanted to really go forward and deepen into the shadow work and the other one absolutely and utterly refused to. It's rare to find two people who in a dynamic that is super charged and brings up the light in the shadow in really intense ways where both people are absolutely and utterly willing to do the work on the deepest deepest levels. I've encountered very few couples like that in my life. Neil Sattin: Yeah, it's something where I certainly feel blessed when I realize that with my partnership. Jeff Brown: If you got that, you're blessed. But it also means that you're gonna have a... In some ways a very hard path. A beautifully fulfilling path if you guys can see the process all the way through and not stop half way. Neil Sattin: Yeah. There are moments where it's really hard, and then there are moments where it's really beautiful. Jeff Brown: You're doing the work for my Bubbe and Zeda. Of course it's hard. You're doing the work for everybody. Really, that has never been able to do that work, or even be aware of that, existence of that work. It's really amazingly remarkable, couples who do this work really need to just go out and have congratulatory dates and just give themselves a break when they can't quite get it right just because they're doing the work for everybody. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And there's something that's coming to me too around how the container of your relationship is so important too... And establishing that container is often one of the most challenging initial parts of a couple embracing this kind of journey together, is creating the safety that allows them to do that so that, when I look at my own experience, the things that are hard now are still hard but they're not hard in a way where I feel like everything is just gonna potentially fall apart like I did in those initial hard moments. Jeff Brown: Because your container is solid. Neil Sattin: Yeah, Exactly. But it took a lot of work to get there, to the solid container. Jeff Brown: And what would you define as the key elements of that container? Neil Sattin: Key elements of the container. One, well there are the prerequisites to the container, so first is developing your presence and by that I mean an embodied presence. Although I think there are times when a more dissociative mindfulness can be helpul, particularly when you feel your trigger coming up and you're right there with your partner. But for the most part it's the kind of presence that is about really being solidly in your body and knowing what is coming up when you're with your partner. So that's pre-requisite number one. And number two is establishing your communication, the kind of communication that's based on presence and that already has a backdrop of establishing safety. So you're shifting your communication paradigm where you recognize, okay, how we talk to each other about whatever is coming up for us. Like, our mission is to keep each other safe in that conversation. Not that we avoid things to keep each other safe but we bring things up in a context of safety. And if you get knocked off the rails, you figure out how to get back in line. Jeff Brown: Got it. So it can be uncomfortable but not hurtful. Neil Sattin: Exactly. Exactly. Or if you slip and you're hurtful you're like, "Woah! I fucked up. Sorry". Willingness to bring that into your awareness of how you communicate. Jeff Brown: So the capacity for self reflection is very important in this process? Neil Sattin: Exactly. Jeff Brown: Okay. Neil Sattin: Those two things along with a whole bunch of curiosity, I think get you to a place where you can start looking at the container. And that's both in terms of how you close your exits...so that means even seeing what your exits are in your relationship. The way that you put energy elsewhere or leave the relationship... Especially in the hard moments. And then on the flip side of container, it's like imbuing it with the beauty of your vision and what you want and what you crave and what you hope to embody together, or what you wanna amplify that you already have. It's a combination of those two things that I think get you to a place where now you can dive into harder work and that structure holds you. Jeff Brown: And what do you feel... I know I'm turning this around on becoming the podcast questioner...but you have the wealth of experience in it. So how do you feel about the whole question of boundaries in terms of creating a safe container around monogamy versus polyamory. Can this work happen if one or both parties is engaged in the polyamorous lifestyle? Neil Sattin: That's a great question. I think that it really depends on the couple. I have friends who are happily polyamorous. And I've had some clients who are happily polyamorous. But happily polyamorous also includes always being or, I shouldn't say always but very frequently being stimulated in the way that your partner being with someone else brings up your abandonment trauma or your need to be acknowledged or seen or... There are all kind of ways that that can still tap into your deep primal issues around safety. The question in the couple is, are you in agreement around it? And can you... If you're in agreement around what you're doing then you can have conversations that either restore your safety because something did jeopardize it in terms of being polyamorous. Neil Sattin: Or you recognize like, "Oh, what I'm experiencing right now actually isn't about my partner at all. It's this deep issue that I've held within me that has no relationship to my partner except that they're stimulating it right now. And I'm gonna deal with that." That being said for myself and for a lot of people, the path of monogamy focuses energy in a way that I think is just... It's different. And I'm coming from a place too where I have two young kids and honestly, I can't imagine having the time to deal with all of that. I'm gonna do this conscious relationship thing but with more people in the mix. It seems on a practical level really challenging. Jeff Brown: Yup. Neil Sattin: And opening up to challenges. All the challenges around... And you brought up the word boundaries so maybe we re-visit that in a moment. But I think it introduces a set of challenges that create amazing growth. But that is not the growth that I personally choose. Jeff Brown: Yup. I think it really depends on where you're wanting to go. And I think if you're wanting to go to the place of trying to explore and possibly develop the capacity to sustain the most profoundly inclusive kind of love experience. One that opens the portal to the everything, one that explores the portal to the everything, that it cannot happen in a polyamorous union. What I think they're exploring is more a preliminary stage work which for many of us is absolutely and utterly necessary. But I think because of the collective carry forward in terms of abandonment, betrayal and jealousy material, that you absolutely have to have a monogamous container if you're wanting to go all the way. Whether that'll be true in a thousand years, once we clear some of this debris, I don't know. Although I suspect it will be. I feel like what's happening in the poly-community is, apart from the whole self avoiding aspect of that for many of them, which is shrouded in all kinds of spiritual fancy talk. I just think they're not going to the same place because I don't believe humans can hold that portal open, that most profound deeply vulnerable portal open unless there's a monogamous container. Neil Sattin: I think there's also a biological shift that is part of evolving a monogamous relationship. The way that the dopamine pathways in your body start to change where polyamory could potentially be counterproductive to that because... Well, here's where I come at it from. There are a lot of clients that I work with where their relationship has grown stale and what they long for, they think, is the rush of how it felt to meet and to be romanced and to have that huge sexual charge that I would say most people, not all but most people do experience in the beginning of relationship when they connect with someone. And they long for that and it's not there. And the challenge that I think... And so those people often come to me and say, "Do you think we should open up our marriage, so that we can get some more of that spark happening?". Jeff Brown: No, they should enreal themselves and enreal their dynamic and go deeper and clear the debris so that when they connect sexually, they're actually present in a way that they never were able to be in the beginning. Neil Sattin: Yeah, so let's go there. Talk about enrealment. Jeff Brown: That's my bias. Right? And I'm just writing a chapter about it in my new book and yeah, I just think that it's very easy to go to staleness and then go to spark, staleness, spark, staleness, spark. It's a life, right? It's a way of life but they need to at least have one experience of their lifetime of trying to go deeper into the shadow material together, clear the debris and develop a container or capacity, an experience of intimacy that's quite a bit different than the one that happens in the beginning when you don't really know one another. You don't know one another's shadow. For whatever reason we're transported to a place where we bypass that or crack through that or avoid that, whatever we're doing. But I think to move to the next place where you're actually deeply seeing of the other on every level. And if you're doing the work together loving them, devotionally, beautifully 'cause you have so much regard for the courage that they bring to the moment to moment experience of the connection doing that work, I think that the intimacy just starts to flow from a completely different place. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Jeff Brown: But because there was no space to do that work and there's no modeling for doing that work and there are no love elders out there who can really support us in doing that work, we're at the beginning of that journey, it's easy to understand why they go back to spark because something's alive because the other spark, the spark I'm describing is the more sustainable depth-full integrated embodied woven spark that travels through us on every level. And to get there as you know, you have to do all the individual work to be able to be integrated and woven best between mind and body and all your aspects as an individual. It's so much work to get to that stage. You understand why they run away and go to spark again. But I think now we're having this conversation because we're at the beginning of trying to lay down the framework for how we go back to a different kind of spark while staying inside of the same union and beautiful but... Neil Sattin: Yeah, there's a reason we're having this conversation and... Jeff Brown: Yeah. Neil Sattin: There's a reason you're listening to this conversation and I invite you, if you're listening and you're poly, from my perspective, I'm in no way gonna say, "Oh, you can't experience transcending conscious polyamorous relationship". I just invite you to examine the dynamics that are at work and see if that's what's happening or not. Jeff Brown: Well you can have all kinds of extraordinary experiences. I mean, for a lot of people and it may be true for most of us at this stage of human development, not really individually prepared for the kind of work required by one monogamous connection. The poly's the path to gather information about who we are from various types of dynamics, to explore different portals, how different connections bring out different parts of us is beautiful, magnificent. Don't misunderstand me but if we're wanting to go all the way through to that uncommon bond experience sustainably, that's what I was saying, I don't think we can do it in that form. Can I ask you a question Neil? Neil Sattin: Of course. Jeff Brown: You mentioned earlier, you were talking about this idea that maybe what we need to do is do this groundwork, the shadow work, the working through the material work in order to have a more real experience or a more truly sustainable experience of say, great love. Right? Neil Sattin: Yes. Jeff Brown: When you ask that question, then I ask the question to myself, where does this sort of thing that just exists between two... 'Cause when I hear that I think well you can throw any two people into an elevator and if they both have the willingness to do the work, we're assuming that they can go to that place. And I'm not sure that's true because I do think there has to be something that exists between the two people. And I always ask myself, what is that thing that needs to exist between the two people? Because it can't just be any two people. At least it's my experience it can't be. And what I came up with when I was writing the Uncommon Bond was fascination or what you may call curiosity. That with some people you just have this intrinsic fascination about this. So let me read you a quote. I'm interested to hear what your experience of this is. Neil Sattin: Great. Jeff Brown: You can connect from all kinds of places. Energetic harmony, sexual alchemy, intellectual alignment, but they won't sustain love over a lifetime. You need a thread that goes deeper. That moves below and beyond the shifting sands of compatibility. That thread is fascination. A genuine fascination with someone's inner-world. With the way they organize reality, with the way they articulate their feelings, with the unfathomable and bottomless depths of their being. To hear their soul cry out to you again and again and to never lose interest in what it is trying to convey. If there is that, then there will still be love when the body sickens, when the sexuality fades, when the perfection projection is long shattered. If there is that, you will swim in love's waters until the very last breath. So that's from an Uncommon Bond. How do you feel about that? Does that feel true? Or do you feel as though sustaining fascination with another's inner-world for a life time is unrealistic? Neil Sattin: Well I remember reading that and actually doing the translation... The way I translated that was curiosity. Or and now that I think about it even more, it's like, the word that comes to me is willingness... And part of that maybe involves the will because sometimes it is an act of will to bring yourself back and to remind yourself that there is a reason that I'm here. But what I also like about willing is that it implies for me, some vulnerability and openness. And that to me, leads to the curiosity. So it may be that and I'm just... This is just what's coming to me right here in this moment, I think it's true though especially that you'll do a different dance at different times. You're not gonna tango from now until the end of time although if you're Sue Johnson maybe you will do that cause she's really into the tango but I think that you are... There are moments where you are in your sexual realm together. There are moments where you're in your emotional realms, there are moments when you're in your intellectual realms, there are moments when all of those things intertwine and yes there are moments that will challenge us around illness, or if not... Between in you or in your partner, could be in a loved one or the way that what's unfolding in the world affects us. Jeff Brown: You're right. Neil Sattin: Things that require us to be called back to... Oh wow yeah there's something even deeper than that, that springs out for me and [chuckle] you know people who... You've been listening to this show for a while then you know I'm kind of a mystical guy so I'm really glad we're having this conversation Jeff, cause it allows me to go there. Jeff Brown: But Neil, let me ask this. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Jeff Brown: I guess what I'm asking is apart from the safe container, apart from my view that to go all the way to that most expansive thing monogamy is required, which many people won't agree with. I'm already ready to receive the emails of disagreement. [chuckle] Jeff Brown: But... And that's fine, I'm open to that. But apart from all of those things that we put in place to hold it safe so we can do the work, whether it's in monogamy or in polyamory, whatever it is, does there have to be some fundamental spark or some soul essential feeling, forget love at first sight 'cause it doesn't have to happen in at moment but does something have to exist, some kind of energetic or soululer or karmic or cosmic charge that just some thing that pulls two people together that they feel like they're meant specifically to be doing this hard ass work together? Neil Sattin: So, I think I missed your question initially, which was kind of like... Jeff Brown: Not two people in an elevator... Neil Sattin: Right, right. Jeff Brown: Not just two people in an elevator, who make all these agreements but they don't have that thing or does that thing not really matter if you do this work with any other person, what about chemistry or what I call "karmistry" or "karmastry", I mean it's multi-languaging but what about that piece, where is that piece in all of it? Neil Sattin: Yeah well then the question comes up for me like what led those two people to be in the elevator at the same time in that moment? [chuckle] Jeff Brown: And my answer is one of them works on the 11th floor and one of them works on the 8th floor. [chuckle] Jeff Brown: But anyway... Neil Sattin: Exactly. What led to that and what led to that? That's where I get my mind blown on occasion when I think about how circumstances lead to where we exist... Jeff Brown: But what about attraction, Neil? Clearly they're on the elevator... I'll go with you... They're on the elevator together for some reason, it was all destined, it was encoded, it was all... Fine. That doesn't mean they are supposed to be intimate partners. So where does attraction, where does... Neil Sattin: Agreed. Jeff Brown: The organic attraction fit into all of it? And where does attraction come from, in fact? Neil Sattin: Yeah... Jeff Brown: That's a whole other show, I'm sure. Neil Sattin: It is, in fact I was just thinking, wow we just had our 100th episode with John Gottman and Sue Johnson. It was totally focused on attraction and even their take on attraction was just their take on attraction. Jeff Brown: Right. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I... Okay so I harbor the thought that it's possible that if two random people on an elevator really opened their hearts that they might experience the attraction or the spark that I think is necessary for it to lead to this, to create the energy that sends two people off in this direction. They had one trajectory or they each had their own trajectory and it takes a little extra energy coming into the system to send their trajectories off in parallel or intertwined directions. So yeah, I think it's necessary and at the same time, there are people who are convinced that they've lost the spark with a partner and rediscover it. And how different is that from two people who just aren't open to the spark with each other but they could be? I'm not sure, I would love to do that study. [chuckle] Jeff Brown: You have a powerful mind Mr. Sattin. These are all good questions. To me, the important thing is that we keep the inquiry open at this stage. I don't think most of us know much of anything, and I might include myself in that. But these are the right questions to ask, what is the basis for attraction? What are we moving from? Is it just societal conditioning? Is there something karmic and internal that really knows this is one of the beings we're here to encounter? And then the next question, is this somebody who we're supposed to do a short amount of work with or appear at a time as part of the journey, Or is this the person we're supposed to do decades and decades of work with? And how do we distinguish the two? Neil Sattin: Yeah. How do we? Do you have a thought on that? Jeff Brown: I have all kinds of thoughts on that but I don't have a definite answer. I do think there's something to be said for a knowing. And that we have to be careful, we have to have gone through enough in our own experiences to know the difference between sort of an immature knowing and one that's really a seasoned knowing, like an informed innocence rather than just a naïve innocence. And you do enough work and you've had enough experiences and you've learned enough lessons and been through enough disappointments that you do reach a stage where it's clear and clearer, where it's sustainable and where it just... For me, when I had the initiating Uncommon Bond experience, I couldn't imagine, it was unbearable to imagine that that was only there for a short period of time. Impossible. Jeff Brown: I couldn't even hold that in my consciousness for more than it is, it was too painful. And it didn't make an ounce of sense to me because based on my experience, my limited experience with crack open love and my societal conditioning, if you had that kind of experience, of course you were supposed to marry and have children together. The only possibility that made any sense. Jeff Brown: Now having been down the road a little longer and written a book about these processes, I can very safely and clearly say that I was absolutely not supposed to spend my life with her. No way. No how. Not possible, that's not what that was about. But you only know that by living. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And I love how you address that in the book too. The rush to... Like, "Okay, now it's marriage". And then it's babies and it's like there is something in us that wants to... I don't know what that is, I think you say, control, it's about controlling that experience to make it last. Jeff Brown: Well, it is and it's also not being trained to know what to do with that amount of feeling so it wants to move somewhere, it wants to express itself in other forms and some people make the mistake of thinking that form has to be marriage and family life, which is not always true for every dynamic and... Neil Sattin: Yeah. Jeff Brown: Because when that feeling comes and you haven't had an experience, an uncommon bond experience, very few people have had that experience. It's all you can do to figure out where to send that energy because you're just not trained in the art of holding it. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. There is one passage that I actually dog-eared here in my book that I wanted to read 'cause I think it speaks to what we're talking about, which is, may I? Jeff Brown: Yeah, of course. Neil Sattin: Quoting Jeff Brown. "You don't measure love in time, you measure love in transformation. Sometimes the longest connections yield very little growth while the briefest of encounters change everything". Maybe two people in an elevator, that's not in the book. "The heart doesn't wear a watch, it's timeless. It doesn't care how long you know someone, it doesn't care if you had a 40 year anniversary, if there is no juice in the connection. What the heart cares about is resonance. Resonance that opens it, resonance that enlivens it, resonance that calls it home and when it finds it, the transformation begins. Jeff Brown: Somebody made that into a song, he had a singer sing that. I love the song version of that piece. And how do you feel about that piece? Neil Sattin: I hate it. No, just kidding. Jeff Brown: Yeah. I hate it a little too sometimes. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Well, it has that... There's the potential, right? Of just being, "Oh, you know, it was meant to be" or this is the silver lining talking. I'm just gonna say this... I had to grow from this and it was only meant to be, whatever. I spoke those words a lot when Chloe and I were going through our break up. Break ups, I should say 'cause it happened several times. I guess, this is what was meant to be and I guess this is what I was supposed to learn. But on a deeper level, the way that that speaks to me, is less about the time element of it and more about the resonance, the way that it brings our attention to how do we foster resonance. That's, I think, so key to the longevity of a connection, is your ability to foster it and I think that is through what we were talking about at the very beginning which is, how do you embrace your embodiment? How do you bring yourself right back into your body in the way that it and your partners bodies and experiences vibrate in resonance with each other and where they don't and how do you address that with each other? Jeff Brown: And the absolute necessity of it. If you're just gonna do the transcendence bypass together, you're gonna be crashing down to earth pretty hard and harsh, right? You absolutely have to bring everything back into the body and we know what happens when we open the lines in the body, you don't have to do a bio energetic session with Al Lowen to know that it's gonna break everything up that's held within the container. This is the work right here and you're doing this work and this is the work that John Welwood's been writing about. Steven and Ondrea Levine have been writing about for years. Gay and Kathlyn Hendricks have been writing about for years, which is what we do when we come back down to earth. And how willing are we to do the work to get back into our bodies and deal with what lives inside of us? Jeff Brown: At this stage of human development, resonance is... We need resonance in order to be... Feel the energy or the willingness or the hopefulness to go back into the shadow and do the work and hope that there is something in that connection that will still be there or even more deeply there later. But what we need more than anything are models and blueprints for what relational consciousness looks like and how we deepen it and how we sustain it and what has to be cleared through. This is the work of our lives and I'm fairly convinced that if we keep focusing on individual path, whether it's economically, as an economic accumulator or master of the economic realm or spiritually, individual practice and the meditation as road to God, that we are going to take ourselves farther and farther in the direction of the destroying this planet, 'cause we're not aware of anything horizontally outside of ourselves. And we're not going to know this realm of possibilities that exist between us. The profound realms of possibilities that exist between us, we have to develop blueprints for doing this shadow work and for knowing what embodied presence feels like and knowing how to hold to it and sustain it without running away from one each other in dynamics and that's the work right now that has to be developed. Neil Sattin: One thing I loved about and An Uncommon Bond was how it transformed from something that was really frustrating me, into a healing journey and so much in the middle towards the end part of the book is about the healing path and how important that is. Jeff Brown: Because Lowen had a choice - as did the author who was inspired to write the book. Either go back to armor and see the ending of the connection as more evidence of how impossible love is in this world and God knows we all have experiences that would fortify or support that belief or, and I remember the moment of my own experience when I had to decide, am I gonna walk away from this and close down and just stay shut down for good or am I gonna somehow find a way to walk right into that web of pain and try to find my way to love that experience forward in some other way in my life. And that's the moment of decision we make as individuals in a breakup and that's the moment of decision we make in a dynamic when the connection gets difficult. Neil Sattin: And for you, where did you find the courage to make that choice? Jeff Brown: It just didn't make sense to me, Neil. That... I guess I'm just not cynical enough or something. It just didn't make sense to me that this experience which seemed so... On so many levels, things happened that I didn't even put in the book that any normal person in the world would think that I'm insane to describe them, as true. Things happened that were radical. It's like we entered another realm and all kinds of things happened that never happen otherwise. And, it just didn't make sense to me that all of that could have happened just for me to spend my life suffering. There had to be some positive reason for this. And you know, I had beautiful grandparents who kept bringing me back to the light in my life, despite my difficult and challenging parents and they had something to do with that. I had enough of an experience with the light to know that there was some possibility that this was intended to take me to the light in a way that I could not possibly foresee in the heart of the darkness. I just believed it, I leaned towards that maybe 53% versus 47% in the other direction, that was enough. Neil Sattin: The word that I didn't speak when I was mis-answering your question before was, there's a lot of faith and you could call it belief or you could call it faith but... Jeff Brown: I had great faith. And I have great faith in humanity and I always, despite Donald Trump. I still have great faith in humanity. Neil Sattin: Me too, me too. Jeff I'm wondering if you can just tell us a little bit about what you're working on now and how people can find you and find more out about you? Jeff Brown: I'm writing, probably my last long book, a book about spirituality where I challenge through my own journey on grounded spiritualities, things that we've talked about a bit here and I make an effort to try to craft a model or a framework or more relational inclusive grounded framework going forward. So I'm hoping to have that book out in the Fall of '18. I'm continuing to publish other authors through Enrealment Press, you can see our books at enrealment.com. We just published Andrew Harvey and Chris Saade's book "Evolutionary Love Relationships" which I think you would love. Neil Sattin: Yeah. He was on the show to talk about it, actually. Jeff Brown: Oh. He was. Okay, great. And I'm teaching at Soulshaping Institute. I'm gonna develop that quite a bit more after the book is done and they can find me at soulshaping.com as my main website or on my fan page on Facebook. Neil Sattin: Great. And I'm reminded too of your movie that you did which I haven't seen yet. I watched a few trailers and excerpts from it. It looks like it's fascinating. But it's about this question of spirituality and... Jeff Brown: Yeah. And what is... It really, that is the question and it weaves the personal into it as the movie proceeds. It's a very intense watch. Definitely wear a tin foil hat while watching. But it does endeavor to speak to through the journey, this question of "What is real spirituality? Grounded spirituality? And what is dissociative spirituality?" I mean, that's really at the heart of the film. Neil Sattin: Well, Jeff Brown, thank you so much for your time today and I feel like we could easily just talk for another hour which I'd love to do. But I know that you have commitments and I have commitments too. But that being said, I hope that we can chat again. Jeff Brown: Great. Neil Sattin: For the podcast. And if anything has come up for you listening, reach out. You can get in touch with Jeff through his website. You can always reach me, neilius, N-E-I-L-I-U-S, @neilsattin.com. And if you want the show guide that summarizes this conversation and along with takeaways, you again can visit neilsattin.com/soulshaping or text the word "Passion" to the number, 33444, follow the instructions and we'll get the show guide to you. Thanks again Jeff. Jeff Brown: Thanks Neil Sponsors: Zola.com - a free, easy-to-use website that offers you the chance to create a custom wedding registry that represents YOU. Choose from over 500 brands and over 50,000 gifts and experiences, allow your guests to pitch in together on big gifts that will have an impact on your life, or to simply donate cash towards your honeymoon, house downpayment, etc. Zola is offering a $50 credit towards your registry if you visit https://www.zola.com/alive and get your registry started. Talkspace.com - Online therapy that matches you with your perfect therapist. You can communicate with your therapist daily - so they can be there for you during the moments you most need support. Visit talkspace.com/ALIVE and use the coupon code “ALIVE” for $30 off your first month of online therapy. Resources: Check out Jeff Brown's website Read Jeff’s book An Uncommon Bond www.neilsattin.com/soulshaping Visit to download the show guide, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Jeff Brown Our Relationship Alive Community on Facebook Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out

From the success of “DJ Jazzy Jef f and the Fresh Prince” with partner Will Smith, to the critical acclaim of his production company “A Touch of Jazz”, Jeff proved time and time again that he would always be a force to be reckoned with. And he continues to represent with his solo projects, collaborations, mixtapes and live shows. His love of music shines through in everything he does. Over the course of his career, DJ Jazzy Jeff has achieved many accomplishments including a DMC Championship and multiple GRAMMY and American Music Awards and nominations. But he is a humble man who is still doing it as his 2002 hit said: “For Da Love of Da Game.”